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Waikiki
01-30-2010, 07:32 AM
They key in the merfolk matchup imo is speed. Survival and daze slow you down too much. I side these out game 2 for more removal and more beaters.

@zoo matchup. I find this in my favor most of the time. What build do you face that scares you that much ? (I am running 4 RWM between main and side tho)

godryk
01-30-2010, 08:19 AM
They key in the merfolk matchup imo is speed. Survival and daze slow you down too much. I side these out game 2 for more removal and more beaters.
Well, I think they're faster most of time, speed matters a lot as you need to drop a pair of decent blockers as soon as possible, but I'm not sure if the plan here is to race them.


@zoo matchup. I find this in my favor most of the time. What build do you face that scares you that much ? (I am running 4 RWM between main and side tho)

Hum, I must admit that I'm influenced by my first testing against Zoo, which was terrible, but I've never feel too confortable against them. I've tested against competent players, running several versions, mostly running Kird Ape and Thoctar, PtE, Helix, the regular burn and the good guys. I'm not sure about what's our plan against them. Dropping a fast Iona can sometimes shut them, but sometimes not. We all said that Iona should come in naming white (PtE), unless we're too low on life, however I often wonder what's too low on life against Zoo. Thet have a lot of removal against us, as Lavamancer or blocking damage allows them to not having to 2x1 me to kill a Goyf or a Rhox. I'm too often burned down to death when I get to stabilize, as competent Zoo players save their burn until they really need it. I'm also unsure about boarding strategy against Zoo. PtE comes in for sure, but then I wonder if Spell Pierce could be ok against them. Some Zoo players suggested me to board in Relic if Progenitus in case I'm already playing it, specially against Reliquary versions, to shut Goyf and Lavamancer.

And then, what do we board out? Some people suggest to board Survival out due to its slowness, some others suggest boarding FoW out, as there isn't arguably a real threat, but a constant flow of threats, and no spell deserves the card disadvantage.

Whatever, I guess it's not that terrible, as the deck hasn't got awfull matchups, but I found it to be one of the hardest matchups. Maybe I need more testing... :wink:

Savo
01-30-2010, 10:50 AM
They key in the merfolk matchup imo is speed. Survival and daze slow you down too much. I side these out game 2 for more removal and more beaters.

@zoo matchup. I find this in my favor most of the time. What build do you face that scares you that much ? (I am running 4 RWM between main and side tho)
Agree about siding out Survival, the iona combo is not really viable against them, and survival is slow in this matchup.
Disagree about Daze.. it's playd in every blue deck, even ones with higher mana curve, like natural order bant for example.. but we already talked about it.
Zoo matchup is not terrible, I agree.



Propaganda? Llawan? Jitte? What do other posters think?
- Propaganda: bad. Tested it (in enchantress vs merfolk, however..). too passive, and merfolk doesn't need to much mana if he has vial or creatures in play...he finishes to pay four mana for ten damage with two creatures...
- Llawan: potentially good, but probably too slow..cost four, virtually five if you don't want to get it dazed. Not strong if opponent has a pair of vials, occasion very probable given that you play llawan very far in the game...
- Jitte: the best option. Probably better than Paths, but I did't tested.
- Other option: Hail storm, but probably is a poor choice...


.
Some Zoo players suggested me to board in Relic if Progenitus in case I'm already playing it, specially against Reliquary versions, to shut Goyf and Lavamancer.

And then, what do we board out? Some people suggest to board Survival out due to its slowness, some others suggest boarding FoW out, as there isn't arguably a real threat, but a constant flow of threats, and no spell deserves the card disadvantage.

Agree on taking out Force, disagree on taking out Survival, Disagree on Relic. The iona combo is good here, as are mutiple RWmonks, so keep survival. Relic is too situational, I don't think you have so many dead cards to take out after you sided the card that you really want vs aggro (path, jitte, ecc.)

Kuma
01-30-2010, 02:15 PM
Today I tested, a lot of games, vs Merfolk. Bad news. 30%-70% for Merfolk.

Merfolk is one of the most played decks in the format. What are the matchups against the other dominant archetypes? An important question to answer. Do you play this deck because you think is a good, maybe even the best choice, or just because you enjoy playing with it?

I doubt we're 30/70 against Merfolk. Especially those lists running 3-4 Path to Exile in their boards can't be 30/70 against Merfolk.

I play this deck because it's a tier-one deck that is a blast to play.

CounterTop with Progenitus: Favorable

Landstill: Very favorable

Storm: Slightly unfavorable to even

Goblins: Even to slightly favorable

Loam: Very favorable

Merfolk: Slightly unfavorable to slightly favorable

Zoo: Even

Ichorid: Favorable

Tempo Thresh: Probably unfavorable

Were also at least even with everything on the front page of the Established Decks forum, and favorable against most of them.


this is the list I tried, a quite standard one.

4 survival of the fittest
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
4 swords to plowshares
3 daze
2 ponder

4 noble hierarch
4 tarmogoyf
3 rhox war monk
3 spellstutter sprite
2 qasali pridemage
1 eternal witness
1 loyal retainers
1 Squee, goblin nabob
1 Iona, shield of emeria

19land

Pretty much no one is running Spellstutter Sprite anymore. And you're crazy not to run four Rhox War Monk unless your meta is totally devoid of aggro and aggro-control.


I tested only pre-side, because I don't think the matchup is going to improve a lot post-side. The merfolk I tested didn't even play jitte maindeck.
4x paths vs jitte and kira... I don't expect a shift over 10% ...in our advantage at least.

Those PtEs are huge for stopping Lord of Atlantis, the key to winning the matchup. Llawan, Cephalid Empress is a great card against Merfolk, although not an automatic win. I also side in a Kira to give me a tutorable answer to their Kiras. They have maybe two Kiras and you'll have eight removal spells. Do the math.


The Iona combo is a mirage vs a deck with so much tempo and mana denial, not to mention 4x stifles that he can save, not targeting the fetches, to make our combo nearly impossible to settle.

The Iona combo is not a "mirage." I've won games against Merfolk with it plenty of times. Granted, my opponents weren't running 4x Stifle, but I don't think Stifle is all that great in Merfolk.

If he's not targeting your fetches with Stifle, he's doing it wrong.


Merfolk is just faster. always a step above. The data suggest, and my personal testing experience confirms, that merfolk is over 50% vs any blue deck in the format, except canadian pre-board. Otherwise would be a really stupid choice, given that it looses badly from zoo and evey aggro/burn deck.

So I can accept to have a bad matchup vs Merfolk. But are our other matchups good enough to justify playing this deck? I'm asking.

If you're talking about Menendian's data, there's no Bant Survival versus Merfolk information there. Also, Merfolk was 50/50 against CounterTop with Progenitus, and our creature base is the most similar to theirs.


- Propaganda: bad. Tested it (in enchantress vs merfolk, however..)

Are you kidding? How could you even think this worth mentioning? Bant Survival and Enchantress are nothing alike.

MSC
01-30-2010, 02:19 PM
And then, what do we board out? Some people suggest to board Survival out due to its slowness, some others suggest boarding FoW out, as there isn't arguably a real threat, but a constant flow of threats, and no spell deserves the card disadvantage.


4 Spell Pierce for 4 Force
Paths + Explosives for Iona+Retainers, Top and Cards like Rafiq, Clique or MM


I haven't found a single Matchup, were I want to Side out Survivals.

Waikiki
01-30-2010, 02:53 PM
Why is the ichorid matchup favorable?

Remmidenny
01-30-2010, 03:11 PM
Why is the ichorid matchup favorable?

I won 2 matches against Ichorid (all LEDless) with this deck, but I think the players weren't that good.
The one who was better just beat me to death though i had Relic of Progenitus.
In fact if the Ichorid understands the game this matchup is very unfavorable for Bantsurvival.

What do you think about 38Lands?
Last Iserlohn i drawed against this deck with some luck and mindgaming, Tabernacle just kicks ass.

Julian23
01-30-2010, 03:52 PM
Drawed against 43Lands during a GPT as well because I didn't have Kira in my 75 as an answer to his Mazes of Ith. Otherwise this would have been an easy win.

Savo
01-30-2010, 05:41 PM
I play this deck because it's a tier-one deck that is a blast to play.

If you're talking about Menendian's data, there's no Bant Survival versus Merfolk information there.


Ask yourself why. the answer is: nobody plays Bant Survival. Why? And when I say nobody I say that in the last three StarCity5k there were about...zero of this. It's a mystery

majikal
01-31-2010, 07:13 AM
Too skill-intensive. People want something that auto-pilots. Literally everything you do with this deck can cost you the game if you fuck up.

Windux
01-31-2010, 07:15 AM
I would say that BantSur more an european deck is.
In germany the deck is on the rising star since it won the biggest monthly tournament in germany + won in the Swiss a day before of the 40 Duals tournament.

I think the meta here in germany is better for playing BantSur and it is seen more often in the pole-positions, so that other players see how the deck works and how good it is.

MSC
01-31-2010, 07:45 AM
I don't think that the Meta here in Europe is better for Bant-Survival, especially in Germany where Merfolk runs wild.

But I have choosen the Deck, cause of three points:
- it has lots of Good and Favorable Matchups and only a few really bad ones
- Iona-Combo gives you an instant-Win against a lot of Decks, something a lot of Decks are missing
- Survival gives you the Ability, to crush Rouge-Decks, which is important in larger Tournaments

Waikiki
02-01-2010, 03:40 AM
The deck is indeed quite skill intensive also I think the american meta just doesn't have any player picking up the deck to get it more attention.

I would like to start discussing peoples sideboard and reasoning why you chose the specific card. I'll start with mine:

SB: 1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
This goes in vs aggro decks the lifegain is huge and gets you out of burn range. Awesome beater (I run 3 md)
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
This hasn't been used in a while since I haven't faced a CB deck in ages. But goes in vs CB and Stax
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
This guy goes in against landstill / combo / ichorid and stax. Stopping key spells in all the decks
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
Vs aggro decks gaining me 7 removal winning the creature battle hopefully
SB: 1 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
This guy looks quite random but has won me games saving my manabase or creating mana with hierarch out. Its protection from blue gives some fun advantages in the faerie stompy/ merfolk matchup. And it can create a suprise blocker. Good vs tempo decks / mana denial and folk.
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
This card goes in vs combo / zoo (with alot of spells) / tempo decks / pox decks
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
These are my open slots. I wonder if I shouldn't simply give up my dredge matchup. Maybe one loaming shaman and move one kira from the main to the sb in favor of an additional clique.
Thoughts?

Remmidenny
02-01-2010, 04:57 AM
I played almost the same sideboard last iserlohn exept of the 2 Crypts which were Relic of Progenitus and the 2 Grips which were Jitte (i expect al lot of merfolk) Scryb Ranger was very good in the SB, 1 game it won me against lands.dec and another thanx to it's Pro:U to kill a Vendilion Clique.
Why do you play Tormod's Crypt>Relic? Relic is good against Canadian and Team America, too. When you play right there is nothing you can loose to Relic. Crypt is just a one-shot versus Dredge and Loam.
I tested Relic last Iserlohn and i was very satisfied. Just give it a try.

MSC, how often is Jötun Grunt working for you? The ability to put creatures on the bottom and to search for them with Survival sounds very strong. Against Loam and other Recurring-Decks he's just a powerhouse. I will give him a try next Iserlohn.

MSC
02-01-2010, 05:42 AM
MSC, how often is Jötun Grunt working for you? The ability to put creatures on the bottom and to search for them with Survival sounds very strong. Against Loam and other Recurring-Decks he's just a powerhouse. I will give him a try next Iserlohn.

Since I'm running him, I wasn't paired against Loam, so he's untested here. He's good vs. Canadian, helps with some recursions and gives you a little bit better Dredge-Matchup (but only some single percent).
But he is a solid Beater with an Ass of 4, so he's really good vs. Aggro.

Waikiki
02-01-2010, 05:43 AM
I actually never tested the crypts yet. I use jotun grunts in the spot but switched them last night for crypt. So I still need to start testing it. Maybe relic / faerie macabre / loaming shaman or whatever is better. Thats why I like to discuss what people use as sideboard tech and why.

jeanbathez
02-01-2010, 06:09 AM
My SB :

1 Faerie Macabre and 1 Ravenous Trap :
The macabre is the one slot which i'am sold on, its good vs other survival deck, loam, ....i love the suprising factor with survival...
The Trap is there for testing, sot sure yet

2 Gaddock Teeg : Combo, Ichorid, Stax, landstill and Natural Order Decks

1 Rhox War Monk : vs aggro (iplay 3 main) and when i need more beater

2 Krosan Grip : CB, Stax

3 Spell Pierce : combo, pox decks, on the play against decks which start with dark ritual and Hymm or Hypnotic...

3 Path to Exile : vs aggro

2 Umezawa's Jitte : vs aggro and merfolk, i have problems with this matchup

I play 3 Meddling Mages (not sure on 3) ,1 Kira, 1 Clique and 3 Monks main

HBspulse
02-01-2010, 06:14 AM
I'm playing

3 Path to exile (aggro-control, ichorid, zoo)
3 Propaganda (tribal, ichorid)
3 Gaddock teeg (combo, landstill, stax)
2 Krosan grip (counterbalance, stax)
3 Null rod (combo, anything playing jitte, vial and relic)
1 Ethersworn cannonist (combo-> tutorable and a hard lock with backup counters)

Since we got a lot of goblins here, I thought propaganda, but still looking for a better option against them. ANT is also popular here.

MSC
02-01-2010, 06:25 AM
1 Faerie Macabre (tutorbarer Grave-Hate)
1 Genesis (Long drawn Games, Combo with Macabre)
2 Krosan Grip (CB, Stax, Enchantress, Dreadstill)
2 Engineered Explosives (Aggro, Icchorid, Canadian, ...)
2 Gaddock Teeg (Combo, Landstill)
4 Spell Pierce (Combo)
2 Path to Exile (Aggro, Loam)
1 Malfegor (Merfolk, Progenitus)

Waikiki
02-01-2010, 06:31 AM
Ok I see people run macabre. But do you find it strong enough vs ichorid? cause most of the time you actually need survival online for it to do smt. Then 2 cards seem pretty useless to me. And it looks really slow. Is the plan to just try to slow them down as much as possible and race them?

Remmidenny
02-01-2010, 07:06 AM
Against Ichorid, it's just another (tutorable) Bridge-Removal.So your plan is try slow them down and take your lifetotal above. A good plan is also Iona on black, then Meddling Mage on Chain of Vapor (postboard).
With Grunt you can always remove the best 2 cards in the Grave every turn, most of the time that will be Dread Return (-targets) or Bridges.
Faerie Macabre is strong against Loam or recurring explosives, these are matchups were Macabre shines.

Shugyosha
02-01-2010, 07:36 AM
Against Ichorid, it's just another (tutorable) Bridge-Removal.So your plan is try slow them down and take your lifetotal above. A good plan is also Iona on black, then Meddling Mage on Chain of Vapor (postboard).
With Grunt you can always remove the best 2 cards in the Grave every turn, most of the time that will be Dread Return (-targets) or Bridges.
Faerie Macabre is strong against Loam or recurring explosives, these are matchups were Macabre shines.

It's more than that. In your opener you can occasionally stop Dredge in its tracks. But to fully use it you need Genesis. Recurring it constantly to exile the two most important cards is extremely good unless they have the nuts start. But if Dredge gets through an early Breakthrough even other playable hate won't help you. Take note that this is from the perspective of a Dredge player, so 1 Faerie Macabre (main) and 2 Tormod's Crypt (side) is really solid against Dredge.

On top of that Macabre main is quite flexible against Loam (obv.) and shrinking Goyfs as a combat trick. Lost two Goyfs to it already in tournaments where my opponents didn't have a Survival out but a Faerie Macabre in hand.

Jokemon
02-01-2010, 08:31 AM
3 Path to Exile:
2 Spell Pierce
2 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Gaddock Teeg

No need to comment on the obvious ones above.

1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress, i'm hooke on this lady. Won me alot of matche in for exampel vs merfolk & faeries (U/r Faries are huge here in sweden) and is a great answer to progenitus.
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner, som play main, but i'm trying it in just SB atm
1 Sower of Temptation, i've always like some sort of creature steal in my deck and it can be a game braker vs many deck. Ex. a resolved Iona on whiote, just fetch Sower and steal her :)
1 Genesis, the card i really are most sceptical towards. But can gain some nice long game advantage, i'll let it stick around some more

crow_mw
02-01-2010, 09:11 AM
@Ichorid SB:
Numerous times I have found second Macabre to be very valuable. It is to offset the slow speed of genesis. If, after landing a survival I can get the second Macabre for G instead of 2G I can use the remaining mana to play a threat or kill their enabler. Without the second Macabre I was finding myself stuck with 0 or 1 mana open, without anything significant on the board. Obviously second copy also helps if they side gy hate in.

Just for the sake of discussion, as I am very skeptic about that solution, in other parts of forums people suggested a Spore Frog lock as a way to beat Ichorid mu.

Savo
02-01-2010, 10:17 AM
Sideboard:
- ichorid sideboard: 1 faerie macabre and 4slots between relic, rav trap, and crypt.
I tested vs Ichorid post side. The lack of black obviously cuts us the yixlid jayler option, which is very strong in survival decks with access to black mana. Faerie macabre alone is not capable of stopping ichorid. however it can be a good addiction, tutorable and recursable with genesis. the faerie is also good vs other matchups, like survival builds, loam, 43land..
to me 4 crypt effects are necessary, not less.

- aggro sideboard: as I said in the previous page , I found out that Merfolk is one of the worst matchups. And I'm reading that other agree on this opinion. Options: the 4th Rhox if not played maindeck, jitte, path to exile. It's important to remember that aggro, in the form of Zoo and Merfolk, is probably the most faced matchup at the moment, so I would devote 4-5 slots to anwer to the various forms of it, not packing cards good only vs a single type of aggro.

- combo sideboard: I believe that meddling is the best between meddling, gaddock, and canonist. however, playing surival, it could be good to play at least one of each. spell pierce is also good, but in a list playing daze like mine, i'd prefer to survive the first/second turn with daze and Force, and then start playing a nasty creature like Mage, gaddock and canonist every turn...

- utility/@counterbalance: 2 krosan grips.

So, a viable sideboard could be:
1 faerie macabre
4 crypt effects
2 jitte
2 path
3 meddling mage
1 canonist
2 krosan grip

Alternatives: genesis, 2x vexing shusher,kira... why scryb ranger? it's too small effect to devote sideboard space...play it maindeck if you want...but in that case I certainly would prefer 1 or 2 quirion ranger, a classic survival staple...

Equinozio
02-01-2010, 10:47 AM
- aggro sideboard: as I said in the previous page , I found out that Merfolk is one of the worst matchups. And I'm reading that other agree on this opinion. Options: the 4th Rhox if not played maindeck, jitte, path to exile. It's important to remember that aggro, in the form of Zoo and Merfolk, is probably the most faced matchup at the moment, so I would devote 4-5 slots to anwer to the various forms of it, not packing cards good only vs a single type of aggro.
I think a good option is to pack 3 Rhox War Monks and 1 kitchen finks. Sometimes we need the life gain immediatly and rhox is blue and cannot stop piledriver.



- combo sideboard: I believe that meddling is the best between meddling, gaddock, and canonist. however, playing surival, it could be good to play at least one of each. spell pierce is also good, but in a list playing daze like mine, i'd prefer to survive the first/second turn with daze and Force, and then start playing a nasty creature like Mage, gaddock and canonist every turn...

Cannonist is the best option to slow them down. Meddling can prevente Nauseam but not the cantrips. We also pack Fow and daze so we have a small counterwall to prevent something. Gaddock teeg is really good but because of that is legendary to prevent playing two at the sametime. I began playing 2 MM and 2 Gaddock but I finally switch the MM to Canonist.



So, a viable sideboard could be:
1 faerie macabre
4 crypt effects
2 jitte
2 path
3 meddling mage
1 canonist
2 krosan grip

I think that a lonley faerie macabre is bad. I'm using Loaming Shaman for a very long time ( with RG Survi's) and is the complement to Relic/Crypts. And nobody espects it to play it.

I made 4-2 in a local GPT witha iona list and my sideboard was
2 krosan grip
4 spell pierce
2 relics
1 wheel of moon and sun
1 loaming shaman
3 path to exile
2 kitchen finks

The spell pierce sucked to me and I'm finaly realizing that the 4th daze is brilliant. I'd change the pierces to 2gaddoc 2 ethersworn canonist.

Savo
02-01-2010, 10:57 AM
Cannonist is the best option to slow them down. Meddling can prevente Nauseam but not the cantrips. We also pack Fow and daze so we have a small counterwall to prevent something. Gaddock teeg is really good but because of that is legendary to prevent playing two at the sametime. I began playing 2 MM and 2 Gaddock but I finally switch the MM to Canonist.


@ Gaddock/canonist/meddling issue: Yeah, maybe between the three, canonist is slightly better vs AdNauseam. Gaddock is the worst because it stops our Fows too, and this makes me prefer the other two in general.

But meddling is more versatile, not good only vs storm combo, and not really worst than canonist in 95% of the games vs Storm. It can be sided vs loam decks for example, or ichorid...

HPB_Eggo
02-01-2010, 02:41 PM
Personally, my SB is generally something like this...

1x Rhox War Monk [3x main]
1x Wonder
2x Spellstutter Sprite [2x main]
2x Trygon Predator
3x Path to Exile [4x Swords main]
3x Meddling Mage
3x Relic of Progenitus

I find Zoo to be one of my most favorable matchups, with Ichorid and Merfolk are probably the least favorable, at least among the Tier 1 decks. 43 Lands is a terrible matchup, but, luckily, I never expect to see it...

Phoenix Ignition
02-01-2010, 03:04 PM
Forgive me for the stupid question, but I lost to zoo and was wondering.

Would having 1 Sideboard painter's servant be worth it against them? I got Iona out at 7 life, knowing pretty well that the opponent had a Path to Exile in his hand (he did), and named white. This gave me a 7/7 beater, but he top decked burn and was able to win anyway. If I had a painter's servant to survival for it would have shut this off as well, even if I would have been at 4 or less life.

He had a 5/6 goyf and a Nacatl out by the way. Did I just play it stupidly? My own goyf wouldn't have helped, Rhox would have been pathed, I just don't see what I could have done there.

Kuma
02-01-2010, 03:31 PM
Forgive me for the stupid question, but I lost to zoo and was wondering.

Would having 1 Sideboard painter's servant be worth it against them? I got Iona out at 7 life, knowing pretty well that the opponent had a Path to Exile in his hand (he did), and named white. This gave me a 7/7 beater, but he top decked burn and was able to win anyway. If I had a painter's servant to survival for it would have shut this off as well, even if I would have been at 4 or less life.

He had a 5/6 goyf and a Nacatl out by the way. Did I just play it stupidly? My own goyf wouldn't have helped, Rhox would have been pathed, I just don't see what I could have done there.

I dunno, man. I thought about this when I first put Iona in my list, but it's incredibly rare that Iona doesn't get there all by herself. If you add a Painter's Servant, then you start thinking "Why not run a Trinket Mage and a Grindstone?" so you can combo kill with it. Iona is sufficient most of the time, and you'll be adding a dead card just for those few times where Iona isn't enough.

Best cards against Zoo are Rhox War Monk, Path to Exile/Swords to Plowshares, Kitchen Finks, and Spellstutter Sprites, but the latter two are so weak otherwise that they probably aren't worth running unless your meta is infested with Zoo.

My sideboard is in flux right now, but here are the staples:

3 Faerie Macabre -- An amazing surprise tactic against Ichorid, Loam, and Hulk combo decks. Running three helps ensure you get them early, and often against Loam and Ichorid, you need more than one but don't have the mana to recur them with Genesis.

The card is fantastic against Ichorid, because if they go all in with LED/Breakthrough you can zap their dredgers in response to Breakthrough. Even if they slow dredge, an early Faerie Macabre is a time walk. If they're trying to beat you with recurring Ichorids and Bloodghasts, you can remove those at instant speed. Let them try to Dread Return, and remove their Bridges in response. Most Ichorid players won't name Faerie Macabre with Cabal Therapy, and even if they know you run it they still have to guess between Faerie Macabre and Force of Will. You can even use it in response to the Therapy, or before you take a turn, unlike Relic of Progenitus and Tormod's Crypt.

1 Gaddock Teeg -- Doomsday based storm lists are most prevalent in my area, and Teeg is pretty bad against them. He's still great against CounterTop Progenitus and slow board control decks.

1 Ethersworn Cannonist -- This guy is much better against storm than Gaddock Teeg.

4 Propaganda -- Hands down the best sideboard card a blue deck can run against Goblins. Even one of these can screw a Goblins player over completely. It's also great against Ichorid and Belcher, and could have applications in the Merfolk matchup.

1 Kira, Great Glass Spinner -- This guy is so good I often put him in the maindeck. Great against anything packing more than 4-5 removal spells. Also great for legend-ruling Merfolk's Kiras.

1 Sower of Temptation -- Great against CounterTop, Aggro Loam, and the mirror match. He's basically Survivalable creature removal, only better.

1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress -- Fantastic against Merfolk and Progenitus. Can also be good agaisnt Countersliver and Faerie Stompy for the odd time you run into them.

The other three slots vary, but they're usually some combination of Krosan Grip, Path to Exile, and other silver bullets.

Savo
02-01-2010, 04:11 PM
3 Faerie Macabre -- An amazing surprise tactic against Ichorid, Loam, and Hulk combo decks. Running three helps ensure you get them early, and often against Loam and Ichorid, you need more than one but don't have the mana to recur them with Genesis.

4 Propaganda -- Hands down the best sideboard card a blue deck can run against Goblins. Even one of these can screw a Goblins player over completely. It's also great against Ichorid and Belcher, and could have applications in the Merfolk matchup.

1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress -- Fantastic against Merfolk and Progenitus. Can also be good agaisnt Countersliver and Faerie Stompy for the odd time you run into them.


@faerie macabre. I tested it and I think it's insufficient, alone, against Ichorid. A good ichorid first turn (land breakthrough, LED) can mill half his deck. If you don't have faerie macabre in your opening hand, to stop his dredging from the beginning, it's nearly useless, and however very underpowered compared to the other hate. Given this, why don't play leyline which is the best at all if in your opening hand, and useless afterwards?
A good solution could be, as already written, 1x faerie to find with surv and recur in the middle game, useful against other decks and as a secundary hate in the ichorid matchup, and 3 or 4 ichorid dedicated slots that are without doubt more powerful than faerie: crypt, trap, relic.

@propaganda: it's without any doubt good vs goblin, even if he can ReB it... but I tested it vs merfolk and disliked it: when (and if) it sticks, it's when he already has four lands and can attack you with two 5/4 islandwalk...obviously it's an example but... I would consider an option good vs goblin as much as vs the other aggro deck of the format: path to exile or jitte. Don't you think?

@llawan: it's been considered, and to me she's very interesting. Did you actually test it? She wasn't too slow, was she? by the way, I could accept to play this card even if playable only vs one deck, because I think merfolk is our worst matchup... I tested it and I'm very pessimistic about it...

godryk
02-01-2010, 04:57 PM
I've being doing some more testing against a friend today (God, I love real testing) against Zoo and Merfolk (I've also played a pair of pre-board games againt Ichorid, just for fun, but I guess that's not too relevant), and I have got better impressions today. I finally convinced myself that Zoo wan't that bad, and certainly won most of matchups, even preboard. Today, Retainers->Iona did its job much better than in previous testing, as well as Survival providing a constant flow of blockers. That demostrates my theory that actual cards work much better than proxies (I love my NM English Retainers).

Against Merfolk I got more problems than in previous testing sessions, though I see it pretty even, let's see what happens. I guess most of time you are served with 7 swords, but sometimes you feel you need a little more just in case they chain Standstill and stuff.
still unsure about sideboard. I'm pretty sure about:
4 Spell Pierce - Amazing card against decks running +20 spells.
3 Path to Exile - MVP
3-4 Ichorid hate - Still unsure, right now I'm playing Relic, but I see there are many points of view here.

If I would be playing a tournament tomorrow I would run the following sideboard:
4 Spell Pierce
3 Path to Exile
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte

But I'm interested in stuff like Gaddock, Llawan, Macabre, the 4th Rhox... Next day we'll pick Ichorid, I need to figure out if I can merge graveyard hate (crypt effects) and additional aggro hate (Jitte) into Propaganda, which is a very appealing idea.

Waikiki
02-01-2010, 05:21 PM
Could you give a little more insight on how the matches went? What hands did you keep vs merfolk boarding plans what happened im always curios about that.

Jokemon
02-01-2010, 05:21 PM
@llawan: it's been considered, and to me she's very interesting. Did you actually test it? She wasn't too slow, was she? by the way, I could accept to play this card even if playable only vs one deck, because I think merfolk is our worst matchup... I tested it and I'm very pessimistic about it...[/QUOTE]

I have tested her and liked her. She is enough as a one off since she cost 4 mana, but if you manage to get her out, it's good time (no vial provided ofc), and to have an answer to progenitus is really nice. Also with alot more Faeries hanging around Llawan just getting better.

Equinozio
02-01-2010, 05:26 PM
@llawan: it's been considered, and to me she's very interesting. Did you actually test it? She wasn't too slow, was she? by the way, I could accept to play this card even if playable only vs one deck, because I think merfolk is our worst matchup... I tested it and I'm very pessimistic about it...

It's also playable vers Natural order decks and thats very important I think. Because we don't have any way to kill a progenitus.

Jak
02-01-2010, 07:15 PM
Forgive me for the stupid question, but I lost to zoo and was wondering.

Would having 1 Sideboard painter's servant be worth it against them? I got Iona out at 7 life, knowing pretty well that the opponent had a Path to Exile in his hand (he did), and named white. This gave me a 7/7 beater, but he top decked burn and was able to win anyway. If I had a painter's servant to survival for it would have shut this off as well, even if I would have been at 4 or less life.

He had a 5/6 goyf and a Nacatl out by the way. Did I just play it stupidly? My own goyf wouldn't have helped, Rhox would have been pathed, I just don't see what I could have done there.

No. I don't see how you had Survival online, with 7 or 8 mana (get Iona in play and get Painter's Servant) and still lost. I think what matters more is what you were doing the turns before.

godryk
02-01-2010, 07:28 PM
Could you give a little more insight on how the matches went? What hands did you keep vs merfolk boarding plans what happened im always curios about that.

I don't remember very well and I didn't kept the notes, but my friend did. Heavy creature hands were very good and being able to drop a threat (Goyf/Qasali/Monk/Clique) on turn 2 and 3 gave me a lot of games. Qasali is a threat when dropped turn 2 as it kills Standstill, Jitte and Aether Vial when needed and swings for 3 (even 4). I liked the fact that in the first turns many of our creatures are bigger than theirs, so I can put some pressure on the early game. With seven cantrips is easy to drop a 2nd turn threat (2nd turn Qasali+Ponder is awesome) which may be handled via FoW or Daze, followed by a third turn threat. Then, he starts vomiting fish to force me to switch roles and play on the defensive, gaining turns until I can finish him through Vendilion Clique. I love that particular card in the matchup, coming down on turn 2 nailing key spells. With seven swords you only have to make sure you kill LoA. I save my swords for them very carefully, and hardly ever used them on other creatures unless I really have to. Of course I'm not discovering nothing new if I say that it's great when you sword that lonely LoA that stay tapped (as he doesn't gain islandwalk) after attackers are declared, then blocking with Goyf causing huge disaster.

Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious, but I won more games when I played aggresively on the first turns and lost more games when my opponent did mean things on the first turns to prevent me for doing so, such as playing Standstill or Reejerey tricks.

Hands like: 3xfetch, Hierarch, Ponder, Qasali, whatever, worked very well, much better than hands with no creatures besides Hierarch and no cantrips to find them. Creatures, creatures, creatures!

What would I side out? I'm not sure (how many times did I say that on the thread?), today Iona didn't work very well against them, as sometimes they just drop Vial, and other times I fetched for basics to protect me from Wasteland. So many times, when I dropped a Survival I opted for just Squee for blockers, as going for Iona would end up in auto time-walking me. I won one game just searching a second exalted guy every turn, to allow Clique beat for 5 before blocking. However, if too much targeted hate is coming from the SB (Submerge, Mind Harness...), Iona can prove powerful. So right now I may go:

-3 Spell Snare (decent, but worst than anything else in the deck)
+3 Path to Exile

Enigma
02-02-2010, 12:03 AM
Hi everyone!

I had the deck for a couple of months already, but was somehow unsatisfied with its results. With the addition of Retainers/Iona and the suppression of the Faerie package, I feel it is better. 1stly: It can play the aggro role as its best with 3 RWM/3 QP. 2ndly: It can lock out with Iona, MM and/or Kira for a good control role.

I've been trying to switch different things. I'm currently running Snares over ponders, but I'll need to test both. Here's the list + SB:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation

// Lands
4 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
3 Savannah
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Trygon Predator
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Meddling Mage
3 Rhox War Monk
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Sower of Temptation

// Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Spell Snare

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress (I'm also playing her in CB/Top and it always worked really good against Merfolks, Progenitus, Faeries...)
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 3 GYH of any sort. There will be at least 1x Faerie Macabre.
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 3 Propaganda
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg

I never really liked Rafiq, and always loved a late game stealer, which makes me switch this spot for Sower.

I'd like to know what you guys think it's the best to fight Dredge properly.

P-M

Jak
02-02-2010, 01:06 AM
I personally don't find Dredge to be too troublesome. As long as you have some form of GY hate to slow them down, the matchup should be winnable. Our creatures are great at stalling, Force stops their explosive starts, and Swords hits Ichorid or the random Grave-Troll. The times I have lost have been without hate and later in the game. If I had had something like Faerie Macabre to get rid of an Ichorid or some dredgers early, winning would have been easily. Since Loam has gained more of a presence, I have been playing 3 Faerie Macabres.

The rest of my sideboard changes a lot. Something I really plan on trying is Propaganda and Llawan but most of it is the standard.

Jak
02-02-2010, 02:24 AM
List I plan on playing this upcoming weekend.

19 Lands

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendilion Cllique
1 Trygon Predator
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona

SB
3 Krosan Grip
3 Path to Exile
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Meddling Mage
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Genesis
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress

I was testing Llawan a tad and it definitely earned it's spot.

godryk
02-02-2010, 04:49 AM
Would any of you play Faerie Macabre without Genesis?

Waikiki
02-02-2010, 04:57 AM
I have cut genesis from my sb since I haven't used it in ages. I still haven't found slots I want to dedicate for faerie macabre x3. So far Ive been playing loaming shaman.

Equinozio
02-02-2010, 07:22 AM
I have cut genesis from my sb since I haven't used it in ages. I still haven't found slots I want to dedicate for faerie macabre x3. So far Ive been playing loaming shaman.

I'v been playing a single loaming shaman for a while and i think is a very strong card. In a matchup with a CanadianTrehs i played with his tresholed moongose and he had to fow me but i fow his so. He lost all the tempo. I always play with 3 relics plus a loaming shaman. It's a beater and with exalted is really aggro.

kkoie
02-02-2010, 10:22 AM
Played the following list in a very small tournament last night at the local shop:

4 Noble
4 Goyf
3 Pridemage
1 Squee
1 Trygon
1 Loyal Retainer
1 V.Clique
1 Kira
3 Rhox War Monk
1 Iona

4 Bstorm
4 Force
3 Ponder
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest

4 Misty
4 Heaths
4 Tropical
3 Savannah
2 Forrest
1 Plains
1 Island

SB
1 Rhox
1 Genesis
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Meddling Mage
2 Teeg
2 Grips
3 Path
3 Spell Pierse... not enough coffee to spell it right.

Faced a B/G Rock like aggro control round 1.

Game 1 was fast, threw down Survival turn two, got Iona onboard by turn 4 and my opponent scooped. I had forced his vampnighthawk turn 3, knowing iona was going to hit the board the next turn.

Game 2 took forever, I didn't see any land hate game 1 beyond wastelands, but thought he might have sink holes (we were playing 10 proxy legacy) so I sided spell pierse and that didn't help. He started with a leyline in play and I kept countering or swordsing his Tomb Stalkers, he beat me down with 3 nighthawks.

Game 3, I took out the pierses for path's, which helped. He wasted and then extirpated my tropicals. then later extirpated my survivals and heaths. I still had dominent position with a big goyf. But we ended up going to time.

0 - 0 - 1

Round 2 was vs R/B Demi-God Burn.

Sealed game 1 with a fast Iona. Game two was almost as fast with a rhox war-monk and 2 nobles in play.

1 - 0 - 1

Rnd 3 was vs. Gobbo's

Third time in a row where I took game 1 very quickly with Iona combo.

Game 2 was long, had Kira in play which caused him lots of problems, until he had the following in play 1 mogg fanatic 1 sharpshooter and 1 stinkscourger in hand. He killed my kira, killed my noble, bounced my goyf, and used ports to keep me off of my land. With relic in play. I lost fairly quickly.

Game 3 was a pain. He drew into 2 relics and had ports to keep me off of my green. Relic kept my turn 2 goyf from being significant and he eventually overwhelmed me.

1 - 1 - 1



I know thats only 3 matches, but I wonder if I need a sower md or sb for all of the aggro (lots of aggro here in the area).



Played the following list in a very small tournament last night at the local shop:

4
Very small tourney with a very small list ;-)

I know I hit the save button before I was done. :P

Maveric78f
02-02-2010, 10:27 AM
Played the following list in a very small tournament last night at the local shop:

4

Very small tourney with a very small list ;-)

Kuma
02-02-2010, 12:09 PM
@faerie macabre. I tested it and I think it's insufficient, alone, against Ichorid. A good ichorid first turn (land breakthrough, LED) can mill half his deck. If you don't have faerie macabre in your opening hand, to stop his dredging from the beginning, it's nearly useless, and however very underpowered compared to the other hate. Given this, why don't play leyline which is the best at all if in your opening hand, and useless afterwards?

Look, I don't know you, but how much have you actually played against Ichorid? It's incredibly rare for an Ichorid player to dump half his deck into the graveyard on his first turn, especially if he's playing the LED-less version. They'll do it less than 10% of the time, and they can't do it through Force of Will. Once they know you're playing blue, most Ichorid players won't even try to go all-in --- they'll opt to slow dredge you which makes Faerie Macabre even better. Leyline of the Void is only good if you draw it in your opening hand, unlike Faerie Macabre, and every Ichorid list is running 4-6 answers for Leyline, at least. Read my tournament report and see what Faerie Macabre can do to an Ichorid player.

Faerie Macabre usually won't lock the Ichorid player out of the game, but it will almost always at least be a time walk.


@propaganda: it's without any doubt good vs goblin, even if he can ReB it... but I tested it vs merfolk and disliked it: when (and if) it sticks, it's when he already has four lands and can attack you with two 5/4 islandwalk...obviously it's an example but... I would consider an option good vs goblin as much as vs the other aggro deck of the format: path to exile or jitte. Don't you think?

Path to Exile is not enough against Goblins. That deck is a card advantage machine, meaning that Path barely slows them down. Jitte could be good, but it's slow and getting your creature killed/bounced in response to equip can be devestating. Propaganda is't just for Goblins, it's also fantastic against Belcher and Ichorid.


@llawan: it's been considered, and to me she's very interesting. Did you actually test it? She wasn't too slow, was she? by the way, I could accept to play this card even if playable only vs one deck, because I think merfolk is our worst matchup... I tested it and I'm very pessimistic about it...

Yes, I've actually tested Llawan and she wasn't too slow for me. Merfolk isn't that fast of a deck, and as I and another poster mentioned earler, it doubles as an answer for Progenitus.


Would any of you play Faerie Macabre without Genesis?

I do. Against Loam and Dredge, you don't want to be paying :2::g: every turn to recur Faerie Macabre. It's much better to just pay :g: and get another with Survival. Three has been the perfect number for me, as I haven't needed more than that yet.

Phoenix Ignition
02-02-2010, 12:35 PM
No. I don't see how you had Survival online, with 7 or 8 mana (get Iona in play and get Painter's Servant) and still lost. I think what matters more is what you were doing the turns before.

Over 2 turns it's easy to get 8 mana. What's not easy is keeping your life total up against Zoo when they start turn 1 and land a bunch of fast creatures (Steppe Lynx, Nacatl). War of attrition it out without hitting an early rhox and he ends up with a 5/6 Goyf, 3/3 Cat, and me at 7 life with 4 mana (put iona in GY at end of his turn). I got Squee crypted and Genesis was way too mana intensive to recur creatures, so I was stuck with at best 1 creature per turn, and not being able to attack with my 7/7. He had used his hand up aside from Path when I went for Iona. Notably, I didn't have Rafiq in my deck at the time, and he is a damn good card. Getting him out and swinging for 16 wouldn't have killed him, but if I hit another exalted trigger it would have. I have Rafiq now though.

No creature I fetched for would have sealed the game except for Painter's Servant, which is why I ask. It's most likely an outside scenario, but I'm not sure because it's easy to get low on life before you do anything against zoo, especially when you don't hit a RWM. It's a good card against more than just zoo. Getting Iona out against combo either shuts off their reaction spells (Blue, wipe away and the like), or their combo spells (black). You need to shut off both for Iona to guaruntee the win.

Like I said though, probably a bad idea.

Jak
02-02-2010, 06:49 PM
Over 2 turns it's easy to get 8 mana. What's not easy is keeping your life total up against Zoo when they start turn 1 and land a bunch of fast creatures (Steppe Lynx, Nacatl). War of attrition it out without hitting an early rhox and he ends up with a 5/6 Goyf, 3/3 Cat, and me at 7 life with 4 mana (put iona in GY at end of his turn). I got Squee crypted and Genesis was way too mana intensive to recur creatures, so I was stuck with at best 1 creature per turn, and not being able to attack with my 7/7. He had used his hand up aside from Path when I went for Iona. Notably, I didn't have Rafiq in my deck at the time, and he is a damn good card. Getting him out and swinging for 16 wouldn't have killed him, but if I hit another exalted trigger it would have. I have Rafiq now though.

No creature I fetched for would have sealed the game except for Painter's Servant, which is why I ask. It's most likely an outside scenario, but I'm not sure because it's easy to get low on life before you do anything against zoo, especially when you don't hit a RWM. It's a good card against more than just zoo. Getting Iona out against combo either shuts off their reaction spells (Blue, wipe away and the like), or their combo spells (black). You need to shut off both for Iona to guaruntee the win.

Like I said though, probably a bad idea.

I guess it would be easier if I knew the situation better. I just assumed with your boatload of mana that you could have set Iona up better, ie getting Kira and then dropping Iona on red since your life points were dwindling. If you had to keep getting creatures to block, then I guess it makes sense that you couldn't set it up. Sometimes you are in positions where you can't win when they draw off the top like a champ.

However, Kitchen Finks is amazing. I want to go with a 3-1 split with War Monk but I don't like cutting the blue count down too low. I will usually run 1-2 Finks in my board.

Savo
02-03-2010, 05:00 AM
Look, I don't know you, but how much have you actually played against Ichorid? It's incredibly rare for an Ichorid player to dump half his deck into the graveyard on his first turn

Land, LED, breakthrough, break LED in response, dredge 18, flashback deep analisys, dredge 12, for a total of 33 cards in the graveyard, one in play, two in hand, one exiled.
Only a land and two spells needed...considering aggressive mulligans ichorid can take...

not more rare than you seeing one of your 3 faerie macabre in the opening hand

Waikiki
02-03-2010, 05:21 AM
actually he needs to see 2 cards in hand while kuma only needs to see one. NITPICKING!!

godryk
02-03-2010, 06:06 AM
Land, LED, breakthrough, break LED in response, dredge 18, flashback deep analisys, dredge 12, for a total of 33 cards in the graveyard, one in play, two in hand, one exiled.
Only a land and two spells needed...considering aggressive mulligans ichorid can take...

not more rare than you seeing one of your 3 faerie macabre in the opening hand

Just for friendly discussing that may add some light to my doubts.

In that situation Macabre would be ok, isn't it? As you can remove two cards discarded to LED before Breakthrough resolves. If we assume he has a 7 card hand like this: Land, Breakthrough, LED, Dredger, Dredger, 2 other cards, if this 2 remaining cards are not dredgers, your Faerie Macabre leaves them with no hand, dredgers, and no way to discard future dredgers, so they're in a pretty bad situation (I'm not a Ichorid expert, but I think no dredgers in graveyard, no discard outlet and no hand can be considered a unfavorable situation). If one of the other cards is a Dredger, then you have to be a gentleman and congratulate your opponent on having quite good luck. Maybe (again, I'm not trying to be sarcastic), that can be considered a God Hand. If it isn't a dredger they'll give you a ton of time.

If you consider that your opponent is on the play, I think Macabre is very good, as it can be used in your opponents turn.

Of course there are other situations and people plays Cabal Therapy and stuff, I just thought that if the opponent is on the play and had such a God Hand, I'd rather had Macabre in hand.

EDIT: However, most of people is playing LEDless here.

Savo
02-03-2010, 10:06 AM
Just for friendly discussing that may add some light to my doubts.

In that situation Macabre would be ok, isn't it? As you can remove two cards discarded to LED before Breakthrough resolves. If we assume he has a 7 card hand like this: Land, Breakthrough, LED, Dredger, Dredger, 2 other cards, if this 2 remaining cards are not dredgers, your Faerie Macabre leaves them with no hand, dredgers, and no way to discard future dredgers, so they're in a pretty bad situation (I'm not a Ichorid expert, but I think no dredgers in graveyard, no discard outlet and no hand can be considered a unfavorable situation). If one of the other cards is a Dredger, then you have to be a gentleman and congratulate your opponent on having quite good luck. Maybe (again, I'm not trying to be sarcastic), that can be considered a God Hand. If it isn't a dredger they'll give you a ton of time.

If you consider that your opponent is on the play, I think Macabre is very good, as it can be used in your opponents turn.

Of course there are other situations and people plays Cabal Therapy and stuff, I just thought that if the opponent is on the play and had such a God Hand, I'd rather had Macabre in hand.

EDIT: However, most of people is playing LEDless here.

Yeah, perfect. But..
1- leyline is even better in that situation, and as useless as macabre if he already dredged 30. not saying that you should play leyline...

2- If they don't go all in, and they will do it more seldom in post-side games, unless they have unmask or cabal, then faerie is even worst. they will have several turns to find the third dredger, and having 9 left in the deck plus several draw effects - it's more likely for them to recover than us killing them before they recover.

3- in the exactly same situation that you described, ravenous trap is certainly better, as you will remove everything straight after he dredged, leaving him maybe with some narcomoebas in play, but with half the deck exiled.

crow_mw
02-03-2010, 11:06 AM
2- If they don't go all in, and they will do it more seldom in post-side games, unless they have unmask or cabal, then faerie is even worst. they will have several turns to find the third dredger, and having 9 left in the deck plus several draw effects - it's more likely for them to recover than us killing them before they recover.


I wonder - isn't the plan vs Ichorid to control them (RFG bridges, sword / block Ichorids, Keep the board clean enough to not allow them to Dread Return) rather than race them? Or am I doing it wrong?

DragoFireheart
02-03-2010, 06:38 PM
I have a couple questions about this deck.

After reading about it and a few of the posts in this topic, I noticed that a large amount of the creature base is similar to UWG counter-top decks. I enjoy the colors since you get the best removal (Swords to Plowshares), Brainstorm, Countermagic and some of the better creatures.

My question is what level of difficulty would it be to pilot this deck? Is it less tedious than counter-top?

Oh, and I have never played any sort of Survival of the Fittest deck. How fun is it?

HedleyKow
02-03-2010, 07:29 PM
I have a couple questions about this deck.

After reading about it and a few of the posts in this topic, I noticed that a large amount of the creature base is similar to UWG counter-top decks. I enjoy the colors since you get the best removal (Swords to Plowshares), Brainstorm, Countermagic and some of the better creatures.

My question is what level of difficulty would it be to pilot this deck? Is it less tedious than counter-top?

Oh, and I have never played any sort of Survival of the Fittest deck. How fun is it?


Survival decks are very difficult to play because you have so many options; which is also what makes them fun to play.

Savo
02-04-2010, 04:10 AM
My question is what level of difficulty would it be to pilot this deck? Is it less tedious than counter-top?
Oh, and I have never played any sort of Survival of the Fittest deck. How fun is it?


Survival decks are very difficult to play because you have so many options; which is also what makes them fun to play.

I'm starting ro believe that fun (and love) is the only thing that keeps many people, me too, playing survival. Yesterday I took out 4 survival, squee,iona,retainers for 4 counterbalance and 3 top... and I couldn't continue lying myself. Countertop is better.
By the way, there must be a motivation for the fact that countertop decks are the most played in the format, while nearly nobody plays survival.

After many years, and dozens of versions, survival goes back to my binder.

Waikiki
02-04-2010, 04:42 AM
Then thats simply a matter of play style since I have not lost a single matchup to CB top yet. The deck is just fan to play and very hard to master.

jazzykat
02-04-2010, 05:27 AM
Oh, and I have never played any sort of Survival of the Fittest deck. How fun is it?

IMO it is a lot more fun. However, I don't feel it's as strong CB/Top because drawing squee, Iona, or loyal retainer w/o survival is painful. Basically, all of Countertop's card are usually more relevant to the gamestate than all of Bant Survival's.

Top on it's own is an AMAZING card. Counterbalance is OK on it's own and with BS and fetches gives you some ability to manipulate your top card.

Squee and for most practical purposes Iona are uncastable. Loyal retainer is a 1/3 by itself and survival needs a creature to become active.

Survival requires green mana to run (your second most important color) whereas CB/Top requires only UU to set up and all colorless after that.

Now Iona is a much surer win than a CB/Top lock but if your can't find and protect your other creatures with CB/Top then you were in a pretty big hole to begin with.

Jak
02-04-2010, 10:06 AM
Content deleted. You can't tell someone to stop trolling and then call them incompetent in the next sentence. It's begging for a flame war. Drop it please. - zilla

@Jazzykat
Do CounterTop decks lose when they draw Daze later on in the game? What if they draw a second Counterbalance? Saying that running 2 cards (Iona and Squee) makes the deck a pile without Survival is untrue and probably means you need to test more. Retainers is still very much castable and can be relevant at getting back Clique, Kira, or even Rafiq.

I think you are really underappreciating Survival. If it stays on the table for a turn you win. Counterbalance is easy to play around, loses to jank, and yes, it is less fun.

HBspulse
02-04-2010, 10:32 AM
Relax.

It depends totally on your metagame.

If you got a lot of ANT and Zoo, well maybe cb-top is obviously a better choice of deck.
If it's more tribal oriented (gobs, faeries, ...), I guess survival will perform slightly better.

If the Iona-LR combo wouldn't exist, this deck wouldn't be tier 1, that's a fact.

However, results for this deck are quite ok, let's see how it evolves. Please continue the discussion on this deck and its position in the metagame. A lot of people are following this. It's more interesting discussing the good and bad matchups, than what deck is better to play.

I've seen some sb's, but how do you side? How many creatures must you leave in the deck in order for sotf to work etc...

jazzykat
02-04-2010, 11:06 AM
@Jazzykat
Do CounterTop decks lose when they draw Daze later on in the game? What if they draw a second Counterbalance? Saying that running 2 cards (Iona and Squee) makes the deck a pile without Survival is untrue and probably means you need to test more. Retainers is still very much castable and can be relevant at getting back Clique, Kira, or even Rafiq.

I think you are really underappreciating Survival. If it stays on the table for a turn you win. Counterbalance is easy to play around, loses to jank, and yes, it is less fun.

Point by point:

Daze: That's like saying what happens when you draw a lategame dark ritual playing eva green or a spell snare when your opponent casts a country side crusher. Or how useful is a Rafiq on turn one? How about a FoW when you have no blue cards? Gamestate will always matter. How are you going to ever cast Squee, under bloodmoon? Lastly, not all countertop lists play Daze.

The second counterbalance: With a fetch it matters slightly because I get to try once to counter, pop my fetch and try again. I could also pitch it to FoW. What are you going to do with a second Survival?

Easy to play around CB: I think that depends on the matchup. Storm combo might not be concerned with Survival either but I didn't say it was easy to play around.

Retainers: Touche, it is more useful than I thought, but still doesn't interact with that many cards beyond the combo, albeit that will in most cases win you the game.

Lose to Jank: Well that's not very specific but for the sake of argument let's say CB/Top isn't very good against bajillion cc decks.deck. On the otherhand, you should pound the tar out of the opponent because your threats are very efficient but that doesn't always happen.

Pile: Where did I ever say the deck is a pile? It was my opinion that Countertop is objectively stronger on the basis of individual cards and their relevance to more gamestates. I understand that Survival is more agressive and may be better positioned in certain metagames.

Testing decks: I have no accurate and objective way to judge how much you need to test. How did you ascertain that I do?

Esper3k
02-04-2010, 12:11 PM
I'd just like to say that I love this deck (I love Survival in general) and once I get a Loyal Retainer, I hope to give it a spin!

It seems to me that maindeck, there is some debate about if it's better to maindeck Daze, Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, or none.

Here's what I've gathered from the discussions, please correct me if I'm wrong:

Daze: Best spell for protecting your T2 Survival. Sets you back on mana though, but helps push your early Survival through.
Spell Snare: Doesn't really protect Survival, but helps to keep your opponent's early drops under control while you get Survival online.
Spell Pierce: Similar to Spell Snare, but could also protect Survival.
None: Protect Survival by baiting countermagic with creatures.

To me, it really comes down to either playing Daze or Spell Snare.

So in general, strategywise, do you all think it's better to protect the early Survival or to use Spell Snare to keep from getting behind in the early game?

My opinion on this is that Spell Snare may be better. This deck doesn't generate ridiculous amounts of mana (I've been playing Elf Survival for awhile now), so it seems to me that while landing Survival is really important, landing it T2 isn't super amazing. I tend to like to drop Survival turns 3 or 4 when you can drop it and immediately at least get an activation out of it before they kill it.

Thoughts?

Oh, and I believe Survival is much more fun to play than CB/Top. With Survival, you are actively getting threats and playing them while CB/Top is inherently a very passive strategy.

Kuma
02-04-2010, 01:12 PM
Iwhat level of difficulty would it be to pilot this deck? Is it less tedious than counter-top?

Oh, and I have never played any sort of Survival of the Fittest deck. How fun is it?

Survival is harder to play than CounterTop, but not too much harder. If by tedious you mean reactive, then no, Survival isn't nearly as tedious as CounterTop because you're actively playing and attacking with creatures much more so than CounterTop.


Then thats simply a matter of play style since I have not lost a single matchup to CB top yet. The deck is just fan to play and very hard to master.

Exactly.

I'm not 100% sure that Bant Survival is better than CounterTop, but Bant Survival does beat the crap out of CounterTop and pretty much every form of control and hyphenated control.


It seems to me that maindeck, there is some debate about if it's better to maindeck Daze, Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, or none.

I'm in the "none" camp, but I did run it with Spell Snare one week and liked them. However, that was a metagame call designed to take advantage of all the decks I saw loaded with CMC-two cards. I haven't decided for sure if Spell Snare will be back.


I tend to like to drop Survival turns 3 or 4 when you can drop it and immediately at least get an activation out of it before they kill it.

This is usually what I do. Doing this also helps you get around Daze.

Esper3k
02-04-2010, 01:32 PM
@Kuma: So just curious - with your Spell Snareless list, do you ever run into problems with early 2-drops like Counterbalance or Dark Confidant?

godryk
02-04-2010, 02:45 PM
Bant Survival is a hell of fun, much funnier than Countertop for sure, though fun is subjective as we all know people who find Landstill "fun". I came from playing Countertop and Threshold before and didn't have too much experience with the combat phase. Bant Survival is more combat oriented and playing against Merfolks is a hard but a really fun matchup, trying to figure out what to block with your relatively small critters.

I won't discuss if it's better than anything else, the deck has proven to be a tier 1/1.5 deck and that's enough to me. I've seen a lot of people stating CB was format-warping to soon after get rid of it and pick up Zoo.

About Spell Snare... it's rare for us to race decks and go all in, the deck wants me to slow down and win in the mid to long-game. I don't mind if my threats are countered as I play many of them. I think I'd rather have my Tarmogoyf countered and then counter theirs, as we're better suited to the card advantage race. In other words, it bothers me more when the opponent resolves a 2-mana bomb (specially things like Dark Confidant, CB and Standstill) than getting a threat countered. Some people has said that it's a matter of playstyle and personal preferences, and I honestly think I've won more games by countering that pesky topdecked Umezawa's Jitte than by forcing in a turn two Survival.

Esper3k
02-04-2010, 08:50 PM
Yeah, that's mainly my question - with Bant Survival, do you oftentimes find yourselves in a position where you wish you countered your opponent's 2-drop on T2? Without Daze, it'd be hard to do that without wasting a FoW. It seems like Spell Snare would be a pretty good solution to that.

Secondly, regarding Spell Pierce in particular, what are people afraid of that they use Spell Pierce against? (other than combo?)

Jak
02-04-2010, 11:31 PM
Point by point:

Daze: That's like saying what happens when you draw a lategame dark ritual playing eva green or a spell snare when your opponent casts a country side crusher. Or how useful is a Rafiq on turn one? How about a FoW when you have no blue cards? Gamestate will always matter. How are you going to ever cast Squee, under bloodmoon? Lastly, not all countertop lists play Daze.

Sorry that was a bad example. The better comparison is Progenitus in Natural Order CounterTop lists. Those do seem to be the most succeful and they aren't significantly hampered by drawing their uncastable card. I concede that this deck has 1 more and also less deck manipulation to keep it away, but the situation hardly comes up. I think the misconception is carried over from early Survival decks.


The second counterbalance: With a fetch it matters slightly because I get to try once to counter, pop my fetch and try again. I could also pitch it to FoW. What are you going to do with a second Survival?

Again, it was a bad example. The truth is though that if you have a Survival on the board already, you can usually lock up the game and win whereas with Counterbalance you still need to actually win.


Easy to play around CB: I think that depends on the matchup. Storm combo might not be concerned with Survival either but I didn't say it was easy to play around.

I meant that there are a lot of decks being played that just don't often care about it. Higher curves or the deck can wait to get answers to it, etc. An opponent will need an answer or lose if Survival stays on the table.


Lose to Jank: Well that's not very specific but for the sake of argument let's say CB/Top isn't very good against bajillion cc decks.deck. On the otherhand, you should pound the tar out of the opponent because your threats are very efficient but that doesn't always happen.

Sorry, the post was quick and I wasn't specific at all in it. I meant jank to mean stuff like Dragon Stompy, IBA's control decks, Dream Halls, Faerie Stompy, The Rock, etc stuff in the Established section that shows up in small numbers at tournaments. Counterbalance really hates decks that breaks the usual curve of Legacy and those decks usually do.


It was my opinion that Countertop is objectively stronger on the basis of individual cards and their relevance to more gamestates. I understand that Survival is more agressive and may be better positioned in certain metagames.

I don't agree. I think Bant Survival is so strong because it doesn't run all the dead cards like RGBSA but it still can abuse the broken enchantment. BS has the answers to most things; Trygon Predator, Clique, Pridemage, RWM, Sower, Goyf, etc are pretty relevant to a lot of gamestates. Now, is it more so than CounterTop? I'm not too sure, but I do know that it isn't much worse.

I think the decks are far to different to compare. Yes, they are the same colors (most of the time), they both revolve around two mana enchantments that provide card advantage, excpet one of them is better around a controlling shell and the other is built for more aggression. This is something that makes these decks incomparable. They play out completely different.

jazzykat
02-05-2010, 04:23 AM
@Jak: First, I'd like to thank you for taking my points seriously and I agree with you on all of your factual statements. While I still feel that countertop decks have more relevant cards more of the time I would probably play BS in an unknown metagame because IMO it is better to "win now" than to stop my opponent from winning ESPECIALLY when I don't know what I have to play around or be mindful of.

Waikiki
02-05-2010, 04:48 AM
I think it will not differ that much.

Our shitty cards get survivalled away which suddenly doesn't make them shitty anymore and make them powerfull+. While CB top cards are less shitty cause they do smt on their own. The only time they are annoying is when they show up in multiples. Which top and fetch could prevent.

I think survival has more dead draws thats a fact. Only if it are just Iona/loyal and squee. The upside is these cards turn into monsters when you've got a survival on the table. Its a price I am willing to pay.

Still I think compairing these two decks is kinda useless since the gameplan differs alot. CB tries to stop further actions from the opponent. Survival tries to make sure the opponent cannot keep up with your treats.

Also survival needs a survival on the board + any creature in hand to be super scary. CB needs CB and top online to be scary.

godryk
02-05-2010, 05:01 AM
Yeah, I guess you sometimes get hands like Hierarch, Iona, Squee, Lands and spells, that you have to mull, but as you said that's a price we're willing to pay. However, I'd like to add, in case someone unfamiliar with the deck is reading the thread, that Brainstorm is a card that can change that and gives this deck an edge over other Survival variants. I will keep a hand of fetch, fetch, dual, Brainstorm, Squee, Iona, whatever, as Brainstorm into fetch will give you new cards, and given our threat density, it will always be for profit. I love Brainstorm in that hands as if you find Survival you can keep Iona to discard it for Retainers, and if you don't, you just dump it into your library.

MurA33
02-05-2010, 08:30 AM
I've been playing this deck for quite a bit now and I have a few points to make considering a few issues that have been brought to our attention:

1. Regarding dead cards in the opening hand (iona, squee, loyal retainers), i feel that we need to mulligan aggressively to avoid these situations. You have to take into consideration the other cards that may be in your hand and sometimes it really sucks. It is true that you may mulligan to 5 cards (I did this yesterday), but you can recover quite easily if you get survival online.

2. Regarding drawing into these mentioned cards during the game, I think that is what brainstorm is for. I find myself saving BS for times when I draw into them and I want to shuffle them away. It is just a matter of playing smart and being aware of what your deck may draw and how it plays.

3. Regarding the argument for Daze or Spell Snare, here's my 2 cents. I believe that Spell Snare is better. Daze is played around the moment we put in a blue land (this depends on who you're playing against, but if he doesn't play around daze...you should win anyways). Spell Snare is a hard counter for many key cards in different match-ups (CB, Standstill, Counterspell, Lord of Atlantis (if he doesn't have a vial), qasali pridemage and, not to mention, Survival in the mirror).

Julian23
02-05-2010, 05:07 PM
I'm totally in favor of Spell Snare although I prefer winning with tempo-style with turn 2 clique and multiple exaltted triggers.

Any thoughts on Dispel in the sideboard? I think this card has a lot of potential against most combo-decks. Going to a tournament tomorrow and consider it instead of Spell Pierce, maybe. What permanents/sorceries does Spell Pierce take care of that Dispel can't hit? Burning Wish against Aggro Loam (if they don't play around it), Dream Halls, maybe prevent or delay Deed? Don't know if it's worth it though...

/edit: I'm trying 2 MAINDECK Dispel in place of 2 Spellstutter Sprite. The last sprite was exchanged for the 4th RWM.

JACO
02-06-2010, 02:14 AM
Hey all, I've recently written the first in a two-part series of articles dedicated to Bant Survival that you all may find interesting. Discussion of this article and the link can be found here:
Focus on Legacy - Constructing Bant Survival (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16410-[Free-Article]-Focus-on-Legacy-Constructing-Bant-Survival)

Check it out and please let me know your thoughts in that thread. I look forward to hearing from my fellow Bant Survival pilots.

Waikiki
02-06-2010, 03:03 PM
nice job! really like it full of information for people unknown to the deck.

I made a tournament today:

2-0 vs Stax
0-2 vs Bant aggro ( very unlucky and perhaps a bit stupid)
2-1 vs TES/ANT hybrid smt
2-1 vs Goblins
2-1 vs 4c Landstill

then draw into t8 right.... WRONG I end up 9th due to unlucky tiebreakers :S

godryk
02-06-2010, 04:30 PM
Are you still running Meddling Mage? I'm really interested in that choice and want to hear more about that.

Waikiki
02-07-2010, 04:43 AM
Yes meddling mage won me the games vs stax : naming crucible/o ring. combo G1 naming tendrils then Bwish. and landstill naming deed. It was very strong.

Julian23
02-07-2010, 09:46 AM
Top8'ed again at a GP Trial yesterday.

2-0 NO Bant
2-1 Dreadstill (van_Phanel)
2-0 Lands.dec
0-2 Lands.dec (got a game loss here)
2-1 Merfolk
ID Dreadstill (wasteland)

1/4 Final 2-0 against Aggro Loam but I scoop to him because he still needs BYEs.

List was:

4x Windswept Heath
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Tropical Islannd
2x Savannah
2x Forest
2x Island
1x Plains

4x Noble Hierarch
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Rhow War Monk
3x Vendillion Clique
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Spellstutter Sprite
1x Kira, Great Glass Spinner
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Loyal Retainers
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob

4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Survival of the Fittest
3x Spell Snare

SB:
4x Krosan Grip (lots of Dreadstill in the meta)
3x Path to Exile
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Faerie Macabre
2x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Rhow War Monk
1x Sower of Temptation


Conclusion: RUN Kira, you will need it against Maze of Ith. Spell Snare was also awesome and I don't see myself cutting it from my list any time soon. Running three Vendillion Cliques was never a problem although I often boarded them out on the draw. Will try two again next tournament.

godryk
02-07-2010, 05:26 PM
I've tested the deck this weekened in two 4-round shop tournaments. I should have ended 3-1 in both if I hadn't give away a game to my opponents in each tourney. This was my first real tournament with Retainers besides testing (both real and on MWS) and sometimes Iona made me hurry up when I had stabilized and only had to wait a little to win. First tournament was:

- Dreaded Fish: 2-0
- Canadian Threshold: 0-2. Close matchups, I need more testing against them, G1 I dropped Iona on red with 1 life, no other creatures on play and one of his bouncers in the graveyard, he topdecked the second bouncer and then sent Bolt to the dome). I was testing Macabre, so I really missed not having Relic of Progenitus.
- Zoo: 2-0. 2 wins thanks to Iona.
- Zoo: 0-2. First game I dropped Iona and then I hurried up to attack him next turn when I should have waited more time. That cost me some life that eventually made me lose. He put me from 14 or so life to 7... Second game was fun as I had Survival and Qasali on play facing a Relic. I was waiting to go all in with Survival soon, as I had Squee in hand, but I only had one green mana, so I had to play slow. He then plays a Qasali of his own, so in response I sac mine to destroy its Relic and discard Squee to Iona to Retainers, so that next turn I could drop Iona. I'm totally tapped and then the plays a second Relic and removes both Iona and Squee...

At the second tournament I was:

- Dream Halls: 2-0. Two easy wins thanks to Iona on blue.
- Eva Depths: 0-2. I played against a friend of mine, a great player with a great deck, a Gb Dark Depths deck, with lots of discard and removal, Confidants, Goyfs and Dephts combo. 1st game it was a war of attrition, with several Smallpoxes played and lots of Swords form my part and Snare shining against a deck with 20 or so 2-cmc spells. We're in topdeck mode and he plays a Confidant, which I sword, soon after he plays a Goyf, I have another StP in hand and after thinking a while I sword it too, it was just a bait for Hexmage into Marit Lage token. Nothing wrong with this game, but game 2 I get tocontrol him and get Survival going. I was in control and I go for Iona->Retainers on my EOT. He drops a Hexmage but don't sac it as he know I have some removal in hand. I had a Path to Exile in hand and was pretty confident thinking in exchaging his 20/20 for a mere basic land... after some minutes of thinking in my victory, I decide to screw it up and then, on my turn, I got completely tapped to play Retainers... with no further blockers. He just smiles at me and says: "dude, if you want to give me the game, I'm forced to take it", so he sacs Hexmage in his EOT, it took me like 5 second to realize how stupid I was. On his turn he attacked with a 20/20 token, so I'm forced to chumpblock with Iona. On my turn I path it, but I had no cretures to get survival going, he drops a Confidant or a Top (don't remember well) and I die soon after.I clearly should have waited to get an extra land but my fear of Wasteland and Smallpox blinded me.
- UGB Countertop: 2-0. I had more experience against this deck but also decided not to suck this time. Two tough and intense games won on the back of Iona on black.
- Thopter/Sword Gifts: 1-2. I didn't know very well how to play against him. I played my cards correctly, but maybe I should have made some mulligans. I didn't know very well how to side against the deck. He managed to draw several Relics and Tormods. Too much for me.

Well, I learned that Iona is a very strong card that wins most of games if resolved, but that also punishes hard any failure. I've tested too much against Zoo, Merfolk and Countertop, but I hadn't had real testing against Canadian, which did feel winnable. I was happy, as the deck performed well and never felt a matchup as unfavorable, it was just me, deciding to suck. I played the list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13478-[DTW]-Bant-Survival&p=423998&viewfull=1#post423998) I posted some pages back. I'm still happy with the maindeck, though Snare didn't shined as much this weekend as other days, but I still feel I need extra counters. I want a third Qasali (everybody is running Relics), as I want to draw it againt many decks and Survival isn't always there to save your day. It will come replacing the 3rd Clique. I'm happy with running 3 Cliques, but everthing else in the deck is a little stronger.

PS: I don't know why I wrote this epic tale of suckery to get like -17 prestige points, I guess I hope it to be kind of cathartic.

HBspulse
02-08-2010, 03:45 AM
Some more tournament data, I did two tournaments this weekend. I play a list with 4 daze.

First one :

4-2-0
Win against :
Stax 2-0
Enchantress 2-0
Countertop-chant 2-0
The Rock 2-0

Loss against :
Tempo thres : 0-2
ANT : 1-2


Second one :

3-1-1
Win against :
Nogoyf 2-0
Mighty Quinn 2-0
UBR faeries 2-0

Loss against :
Zoo 0-2

Top8 :
Loss against Natural order cb bant



So a record of 7-4, which is really below expectations.

My conclusions :
- Canadian thres seems unwinnable
- Merfolk matchup is really bad
- Rafiq is overkill
- Wonder is great
- Gaddock teeg is really bad against ANT

Jak
02-08-2010, 04:16 AM
Tempo Thresh isn't that hard. They only have 8-10 threats so trading is something you always want to do, especially on Mongoose. Never overextend into Fire/Ice, is no playing Clique when Hierarch is on the table. Just fetch basics when appropriate. I feel this deck has one of the strongest manabases in legacy with 4 Hierarchs, 4-5 basics and plenty of other lands. As long as you fetch right your manabase should hold up.

The MU is a lot better with Sprite too.

HBspulse
02-08-2010, 04:36 AM
I never succeeded in getting 3 mana on the board against tempo thres.

I play 19 land, of which 3 basics and 4 hierarch. Burn, stifle and waste and spell snare/daze for the two drops...well maybe he got lucky, who knows.

Jak
02-08-2010, 04:48 AM
I never succeeded in getting 3 mana on the board against tempo thres.

I play 19 land, of which 3 basics and 4 hierarch. Burn, stifle and waste and spell snare/daze for the two drops...well maybe he got lucky, who knows.

Yeah, Tempo Thresh is like that. If they have, they usually have it. You really can't do anything about that. If you can't setup, you lose. That doesn't happen every time though and their low threat count can also give you time to setup.

Julian23
02-08-2010, 08:58 AM
During my last two tournaments where I played 5 basic lands like 80% of me fetching was for basic lands. It was very common for me to have like 4 basics on the table + Hierarch. I rarely feel urged to fetch a Trop let alone a Savannah.

Esper3k
02-08-2010, 03:19 PM
I played about 6 games with my friend last night against Lands. The matchup seems really tough (Tabernacle is such a beating!) - anyone have any suggestions on how to play against it?

It seems like the key to victory is getting Survival out and going nuts (if you don't have it, it seems like you're going to be in for a really tough time.

Waikiki
02-08-2010, 03:45 PM
yes just get survival up go for iona to stop loam engines. Try to get kira for maze of ith and swing for the win. The matchup can be quite hard and quite easy at the same time.

Esper3k
02-08-2010, 04:40 PM
Yeah, post-board it definitely seems to improve greatly when we can bring in our graveyard hate.

Do we have any real answers to a Tabernacle other than trying to power on through?

I lost 2 games where he had double Maze + Tabernacle out. Sad times.

arebennian
02-08-2010, 04:45 PM
You could include a 1 of Knight of the Relinq. and a single wasteland...
Ultra slow though...

Kuma
02-08-2010, 05:00 PM
Some combination of Vendilion Clique, Faerie Macabre, Iona, and Kira, Great Glass Spinner will help you beat the Lands matchup. Personally, I've never had trouble with it. I think it's a fantastic matchup for us.

Esper3k
02-08-2010, 05:02 PM
Yeah I'm starting to consider running just 1 Faerie Macabre main just so I have -some- hate against the graveyard based decks.

Kuma - do you ever find yourself missing Spell Snare in the main?

Kuma
02-09-2010, 12:39 PM
Kuma - do you ever find yourself missing Spell Snare in the main?

It's hard to say since I've only run the card in my deck for one tournament. The main reason I ran it was because all the decks I saw before the tournament were loaded with CMC-two cards. It turned out to be a great choice and helped me to beat White Weenie in round four and CounterTop with Progenitus in the playoffs when I was having terrible topdeck after terrible topdeck.

I'll try to keep track of how many games I lose to cards that cost two mana and let you know. The problem is my meta is infested with Goblins right now, and Spell Snare is pretty terrible there.

I liked it when I ran it, but so far I can't really say I miss it since I've been doing great without it too.

Julian23
02-09-2010, 01:47 PM
Lands is such a fantastic matchup IF you run Kira. The plan is as simple as it gets: drop Kira, drop Iona, swing with enough beaters. Tabernacle slows you down but who cares? Lands is slow as hell.

Esper3k
02-09-2010, 02:47 PM
It's hard to say since I've only run the card in my deck for one tournament. The main reason I ran it was because all the decks I saw before the tournament were loaded with CMC-two cards. It turned out to be a great choice and helped me to beat White Weenie in round four and CounterTop with Progenitus in the playoffs when I was having terrible topdeck after terrible topdeck.

I'll try to keep track of how many games I lose to cards that cost two mana and let you know. The problem is my meta is infested with Goblins right now, and Spell Snare is pretty terrible there.

I liked it when I ran it, but so far I can't really say I miss it since I've been doing great without it too.

Thanks! I'm currently messing around with a list with Spell Snares main and I'm starting to wonder how much I actually need it. So far, I haven't really had problems with the early beaters that I absolutely have to stop and it'd give me more room to fit more creatures into the deck.

Regarding Lands: My experience against the deck has been the opposite in regards to its speed. Typically, from my experience, they'll open with a T1 Exploration or Manabond and start disrupting you via Wastelands and Ports. If they drop a Tabernacle early on, it gets really hard to use Survival effectively.

Julian23
02-09-2010, 03:25 PM
Running 8 Fetchlands and 5 basic lands I don't care that much about Wasteland although they might catch you off guard with only Duals in your hand. In my experience they usually drop their hand turn 1 which usually ties up one of your lands. More if they have Tabernacle but that's as unlikely as it get as they play it as a 1-of. Then they start topdecking in search for Life from the Loam or Intuition. This usually gives you so many turns. I'm not really afraid of this deck at all.

spider900
02-10-2010, 11:02 AM
Today, I got the following opening hand: Ponder, Savannah, Plains, Pridemage, Iona, Retainers, N.Hierarch.

I was on the draw and I was wondering whether it would be clever to draw the card and pass the turn to be able to discard Iona. On my second turn playing the Hierarch and on my third Retainers. What do you think?

Waikiki
02-10-2010, 12:02 PM
depends against what you are playing. I would not make this play vs blue decks.

MSC
02-10-2010, 01:52 PM
I was on the draw and I was wondering whether it would be clever to draw the card and pass the turn to be able to discard Iona. On my second turn playing the Hierarch and on my third Retainers. What do you think?

If you know against what you are playing...

It may be worth the try against Encahntress,and maybe Dredge or slow Combo, but against everything else it's just not good.
Stifle, Wasteland, Discard, Removal, Gravehate or Counters will turn your Hand into nothing.

JACO
02-11-2010, 05:03 PM
Gentlemen, the companion article Focus on Legacy - Playing Bant Survival (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16476-[Free-Article]-Focus-on-Legacy-Playing-Bant-Survival) is now up for your viewing! Please check it out and let me know what you think I missed in that article, or what you'd like to see discussed in the next one. I tried to namedrop a few of you to give some props in this one too. ;)

godryk
02-11-2010, 05:12 PM
Gentlemen, the companion article Focus on Legacy - Playing Bant Survival (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16476-[Free-Article]-Focus-on-Legacy-Playing-Bant-Survival) is now up for your viewing! Please check it out and let me know what you think I missed in that article, or what you'd like to see discussed in the next one. I tried to namedrop a few of you to give some props in this one too. ;)

Nice read! I may not agree on the list but it's always nice to see someone explining matchups strategy.Hope you keep on writing stuff for Jordi's blog.

Julian23
02-11-2010, 06:17 PM
You should mention that the best way to fight Show and Tell is Survival with one green mana open to go for Iona in response. Against Dreamhalls it just shuts them out and against Progenitus you can easily race them.

mossivo1986
02-11-2010, 06:25 PM
I've been fooling around with Bant survival for a while. Here's what i've been working on:


2 misty
2 flooded
2 windswept
3 trop
2 tundra
1 savannah
1/1/1 basic
4 wasteland

4 noble
4 goyf
3 qasali
2 rhox
1 trygon

1 squee
1 loyal
1 iona

4 force
3 spell pierce
3 daze

4 brainstorm
3 survival
3 ponder

4 stp

sb:
1 fae maccabre
1 genesis
1 kira
1 wonder
2 path
2 krosan
2 blue blast
3 relic
1 tormod's
1 rhox war monk

I'm currently unsure about a couple of matchups. I wanted an abundance of options when it came to graveyard hate as there are really 3 types of decks. Recursion, ichorid, and threshhold.

LED and Non-led ichorid you just bring the same package in, but it seemed to work out fantastic for obvious reasons. I'm pretty sure Can. threshhold is a good matchup because of the basics, and all you do is counter their burn (your creatures are bigger) and thus you win. Post board beb and relic should be more then enough to hoze them.

The goblins packages seems good as well as you get what you want and poze little to worry as you run 2 blast 2 path 1wonder and a warmonk post board

merfolk seems alittle tougher, and i'm unsure if you bring genesis in, but it seems atleast 50-50 you side in 2 path 1 warmonk and perhaps kira and or wonder.

The basic idea is that you retain your position overall as the creature deck. you run the basis of a white splash tempo deck. Your creatures are simply better. You have your survival package which either adds additional tutorable threats to the board position or oops I win because I have the iona combo, but the basic idea is to cut the crap (additional not necessary creatures I.E. rafiq and wonder in the mb.) meddling mage while useful is still a 2/2 bear and unfortunately I'm a firm believer in blind luck when it comes to this game.

The addition of Daze and pierce into the mb allows you to have the stronger game against more of the field earlier. While Daze can feel like a mana sink, one of the best plays in legacy is turn 2 rhox survival protected etc. daze or follow it up with disruption (wasteland) into daze/ pierce. This also makes you additionally protected against countertop/ zoo's b.s. and other janky plays. Pierce is very strong and I think should be tested in the mb.


The original base for this model came from W/Tempo Threshhold (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16214-UGw-Tempo-Thresh-Takes-Lansing-MI). A Deck Paul Kim and Spencer Hayes created. I feel like the survival advantage gives you a much stronger finish as far as ca and tempo, while forcing your opponent to play needle or gy removal, both which don't really matter unless your already losing.

Kuma
02-11-2010, 06:38 PM
Gentlemen, the companion article Focus on Legacy - Playing Bant Survival (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16476-[Free-Article]-Focus-on-Legacy-Playing-Bant-Survival) is now up for your viewing! Please check it out and let me know what you think I missed in that article, or what you'd like to see discussed in the next one. I tried to namedrop a few of you to give some props in this one too. ;)

Thanks for taking the time to write such a quality article on Bant Survival, JACO.

I like your list, but I don't love it. Running only two Rhox War Monk seems incredibly suboptimal, as it's good against just about everything in the format, and allows you to pretend to be Bant Aggro if you can't stick a Survival. I don't know what you're trying to accomplish with the two Spellstutter Sprites. They were never a good call, and there's no reason to run them with the Loyal Retainers/Iona combo. At best, they're a metagame call. Personally, I don't see the need for Spell Snare, but I've tested it and I haven't noticed a significant difference in performance with and without it.

If the Merfolk list is running Stifle, I'd probably side out a Spell Snare or something instead of a Noble Hierarch, but otherwise I agree with the plan.

The best way to play against non-Belcher storm combo is to try to play a quick hate bear or Iona and beat them down to the point where an Ad Nauseum becomes risky. You will never FoW a significant combo piece against a competent storm player; they'll always Chant/Duress/Blast it. Forces are better used on Brainstorms, Ponders, Sensei's Divining Tops, Mystical Tutors, discard, etc. to buy time until you can set an Iona on black. Xantid Swarm isn't worth worrying about. In most cases it's just a slow Duress. I'd rather have the speed of Noble Hierarch than what is essentially an extremely limited counterspell in Swords to Plowshares.

Path to Exile is overrated against Goblins. Yes, you can get rid of their Goblin Lackey turn one, but you allow for a turn two Warchief and beyond. I don't think your list has any kind of Goblins matchup. The best card for dealing with Goblins is Propaganda/Ghostly Prison. It's also great against Ichorid and Belcher.

Oh, and thanks for the name drop. :)

Julian23
02-11-2010, 09:37 PM
So after taking a look at the spanish pool for GP Madrid (https://spreadsheets.google.com/viewanalytics?formkey=dDBvVWlKN0FsYXgxMVctckRfSGVWQWc6MA) (with at least 400 votes by then) it seems now even clearer, that the most played decks might are likely to be:

Zoo (35 votes)
Bant Aggro (30 votes)
Countertop (30 votes)
Merfolk (19 votes)
Dredge (17 votes)
and Bant Survival (17 votes)

This leads me to believe that the choice of 4 StP + 3 PtE from the sideboard will be the way to go. Any objections? Most of my work right now goes into the sideboard of this deck so this leaves me with 12 open slots, already havivng decided on playing 4 RWM main.

+3 Krosan Grip against various kinds of stuff leaves 9 slots open.
+4 Dredgehate although one might argue this is not gonna be enough, one might at least try and have additional hate against recursion strategies. I chose 2 Faerie Macabre and 2 Tormod's Crypt mainly because Faerie is tutorable and can even mess with Ill-Gotten-Gains after Chant. Leaves me with 5 open slots.

I would like to include 2 Jitte, which increases the # of my anti-aggro cards to a comfortable 5. Although this is debateable. Does anyone have advice on cards that might work better here?
I should mention that I already play Kira in the main. The only debateale slots there are 2 Vendillion Clique and 2 Spellstutter Sprites. The later for tutorable permission.

So what's the last three slots gonna be? Main contenders being Spell Pierce, Pithing Needle and Annul and / or additional Survival targets like Gaddock Teeg, Ethersworn Cannonist, Llawan, Meddling Mage. I never liked Gaddock because he shuts down your Forces. If I was gonna run a hate-bear it's most likely gonna be the Cannonist. What do you think of Pithing Needle? Sensei's Divining Top ist just SUCH a strong card, I'm tempted to include it just to combat Top itself while hitting Countertop, Vial and other (less important) activated abilities.

PS: The "cute" thing would be one Painter's Servant from the sideboard but I won't do it. Although I feel like mentioning it, maybe someone can proof me wrong and mention a relevant matchup for such tricckery.

Jak
02-11-2010, 10:04 PM
3 Path to Exile
3 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Faerie Macabre

For the last 3 slots, I would include 1 Llawan at least. Merfolk and NO look to be heavily played so having a win/out against those is probably necessary. For the last 2, I think you could never go wrong with 2 Pithing Needles. It is great versus those decks and also decent against a wide variety of others, however, the third Jitte would do much better versus the mirror, Zoo, Merfolk, Dredge, Goblins, and any other random.

I'd add to the list:

1 Llawan
1 Jitte

The last slot could go to anything really. Sower, Spell Pierce, 4th Snare (I think you still run 3 MD), etc.

Julian23
02-11-2010, 10:18 PM
After watching a lot of Spanish Legacy recently I see Progenitus in the Top8 quite often. Llawan it is. To be honest I don't have a lot of experience playing Jitte in competitive Magic. Always felt 2+2 mana was kinda weak but a lot of people ensure me they are always close to scoop when facing an active Jitte against their Tribal Aggro.

Yeah, I will stick with 3 Spell Snare main which served me so well. I consider exchanging 2 Sprites for 2 different permission spells but I feel bad lowering the creature count. I don't consider Daze because as a 2-off it's kinda weak so right now I'm looking into Spell Pierce and Dispel.

Enigma
02-12-2010, 01:28 PM
It's good that we all came to similar conclusions regarding the SB. I'm playing triple MM's list with Sower instead of Rafiq, 2x Qasali/1 Witness, and Snares over Ponders, and my SB is:

3x Path to Exile
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x GYH guys (I'm trying different set-up with Macabre/Jotun/Loaming)
2x Krosan Grip (There is only CB and Humility that it is useful against, and I have already so much things to enter against those decks)
3x Spell Pierce (I always thought combo wasn't a very good MU, and with the abundance of Dream Halls, TES and such, I'm feeling really more confidant with additional counters. + It is awesome against control)
1x Gaddock Teeg (Shut down: Storm, Stax, Landstill (with kira it's almost a lock that I experimented yesterday in a tournament), Dream Halls...)
1x Llawan Cephalid Empress

I tried less GYH, and I lost to Dredge miserably.
I tried Propaganda, and I lost to Dredge miserably, while being not good enough against Folks.

To validate my points, I'll show a couple of plays I faced yesterday in our weekly 3 rounds tournament.

1st round against Dream Halls:

1st He Thoughtseize my force and he goes off with DH/Conflux/Cruel

SB: I side in: 3x Spell Pierce, 1x Teeg, 1x Llawan, 2x Grip for -4x Stp, -1x Sower, -1x Kira, -1x RWM

2nd I Mull to 6 and I have 1x Pierce, 1x Snare, 1x NH, 1x Goyf, Land, Land. I pierce a brainstorm when he had Fetch open turn 3. He doesn't like it. While I'm beating with exalted goyf, I still have another pierce when he tries DH which makes him scoop.

3rd my hand is: Fow, Fow, Fow, Meddling Mage, Witness, Land, Land. He 1st turn thoughtseize me and sigh. He takes MM, turn 3 I take it back and he scoops.

What we can see is that I always needed 2 counters (or MM/Teeg) to be able to stop his combo as 1 was never enough. Game 2 shows very well how Pierce is useful against combo decks, while game 3 is just a ridiculous draw.

2nd round against Survival Elves

1st game He overwhelms me with a lot of elves while I have a slow start.

SB: +3 Pte, +1 Macabre, +2 Grip, -3x Meddling Mage, -1x Kira, -1x Sower, -1x Witness

2nd game We both have survival but I shut his down with quick macabre, while I go for Iona on next turn.

3rd game I have 4 plows effect on the first 3 turns, which slows him down a lot. NH, NH, Qasali and Goyf attacking for 5/6. He eventually triple block while we are both on top deck mode except me having Squee and Macabre in hand. I continue drawing into exalted creatures and 5/5 Qasali makes it happen. Note that he played Survival but I shut it down with macabre again while he didn't have any other creatures in his hand.

Iona, plows effect and Macabre are pure gold in this kind of MU.

3rd round against UWb Landstill

1st game I have the perfect draw of: turn 1 NH, turn 2 Survival with Snare back up for his CS, turn 4 Iona force back up for his other counter.

SB: +3 Pierce, +1 Gaddock, +1 Macabre, +2 Grip, +1 Jotun, -1x Sower, -4x Stp, -3x RWM

2nd game Turn 3 Kira, Turn 4 SotF, pass, he drops EE at 2, I discard Iona to get... Now I have a choice of getting Retainers or Witness but my lands are Island, Trop, Trop, and I have Teeg in hand with something else. I decide not to rely on luck and go for witness, he crack EE, pass. I draw Windswept heath (oh well...) and decide to play Teeg to trying to lock him out. It works as he shows me his hand after 4 turn of beatdown: Wrath, Fact, EE, Force, Counterspell, Stp.

We played 6 games and I finished 5-1. The only game I lost is because I didn't have any counterspell as a back up and He had 2 CS + Standstill. We can see that Gaddock really shines. Also, if you can protect survival for only 1 turn, you win, as Iona on white is game over. But there is also MM or Teeg in combination with fantastic Kira that really works great.

Hope that may helps the SB topic...

PS: I love this deck!

P-M

HBspulse
02-12-2010, 02:08 PM
Looks like Bant Survival is doing great in Spain :
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16440-[Report-Videos]-GPT-Madrid-Badalona-(Barcelona)-07-02-10

Apparently they are playing NO-Progenitus on the side.

In what matchups would you side this in?

Waikiki
02-12-2010, 03:53 PM
In my opinion you might just go play Bant aggro with NO pro.

It doesn't look to improve any matchup imo.

For the sideboard I am using:

3 Firespout
1 Taiga
3 Spell pierce
2 Teeg
2 Grip
1 Faerie macabre
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Llawan
1 Open slot

I chose to run firespout because its also good vs goblins and zoo where path isn't that great imo. Also firespout helps rather well vs a horde of zombie tokens.

Myself am running 3 Meddling mages aswell and they serve me well.

MurA33
02-12-2010, 04:33 PM
Myself am running 3 Meddling mages aswell and they serve me well.

Do you find them useful in the mirror? Right now, I'm hesitant to change my Vendilion Clique slot to Meddling Mages. I have seen it's potential when watching or hearing of Enigma's success with them. However, we did face each other last week and his mages were not as useful and my cliques shined.

Do you ever find yourself stuck with them in your hand? Do you find yourself having trouble with things to name?

Here's how I see the comparison:

Vendilion Clique vs Meddling Mage

Clique
+ Flash 3/1 Flyer
+ Duress effect
- CMC of 3

Meddling Mage
+ Permanantly erases threats that an opponent may have (although this is the only plus it is a very strong plus as mentioned by Enigma and Waikiki)
- You can name Swords to Plowshares but you'll affect your own hand (perhaps you can side STP for Paths after game 1)
- Spell snare-able

I am currently trying to figure out if I can make a build with both of them in the same deck and if they are even good together in the same deck (testing required).

Reasons against having them in the same deck:

1. I reduce other utility cards (qasali and/or trygon)

Additionally, I think that adding Witness, like Enigma has, is very good. You can bring back any useful cards (STP, Survival, any threat, FoW, graveyard-hate (post-board))

I just wanted to express some concerns with the two cards as they have proven to be very strong inclusions in BANT Survival. What do you guys prefer? Clique or Mage? Do you think it would be useful to have both of them in the same deck?

Kuma
02-12-2010, 04:38 PM
In my opinion you might just go play Bant aggro with NO pro.

It doesn't look to improve any matchup imo.

For the sideboard I am using:

3 Firespout
1 Taiga
3 Spell pierce
2 Teeg
2 Grip
1 Faerie macabre
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Llawan
1 Open slot

I chose to run firespout because its also good vs goblins and zoo where path isn't that great imo. Also firespout helps rather well vs a horde of zombie tokens.

Dude, run four Propaganda. It's orders of magnitude better against Ichorid, better against Goblins, and not irrelevant against Zoo. I haven't had much trouble with Zoo no matter what I run in my sideboard. How many Rhox War Monk are you running?

Waikiki
02-12-2010, 04:50 PM
I am running 4 rhox war monk. Propaganda does not seem that great vs pridemages or merfolk but I will test them.

Enigma
02-12-2010, 05:12 PM
Trying to answer the Clique/MM question, I'll try to compare both in a different angle:

Meddling Mage's advantages:

When I want to turn off a card (as Life From the loam, Dread Return, Stp...), I'd prefere invalidating every single copies instead of just replacing one of them with an other random card (Clique effect). In that matters, MM effect last permanently, while Clique effect will occur once, and doesn't prevent from drawing into an other one. For me, this is the main reason to run MM over Clique.

MM shines the most against Combo, Control (mostly Landstill, Stax and such), decks relying on a special card (Life from the loam.decks), decks with few removals (naming the removal in question)... Against combo, I'd always prefere MM over Clique, mostly because it can be casted earlier with less color requirement (UW>UU (it may looks weird, but it's true)), and also because of my first point.


Vendilion Clique's advantages:

Clique will immediatly affect opponent's hand, helping resolving Survival of the Fittest on next turn. This will have its major impact against Landstill, where MM would be in the face of so many choices, Clique would directly take the right card that would stop SotF.

Its second advantage is that the body itself is independant from its ability, which makes a better beater/blocker on its own.


The conclusion I'm taking from this analysis is that MM serves a more versatile role, while Clique is definitely a better silver bullet card. On MM's cons, I'd also add the fact that there is more skill requirement needed to play it properly, which adds to Clique's advantages for people less involved in legacy's metagame (For the same reason I'd prefere giving Goblins than Landstill to a new Legacy player (Silver Bullet>Regularity for "new players")).

As for Firespout, I see it exactly the same way as for the MM/Clique comparison: Firespout will helps the more specific MU, but Path to exile will be more steady to what it is sideboarded for: Killing creatures. Having only 1 land to cast FS against decks that are running wastelands (Goblins and Merfolks) might be a bad thing. I'd imagine having a starting hand of 2 lands, 1 of them being that Taiga and taking the risk of being shut down of 3 cards just by a single Wasteland. In any case, I'll test it and give you real testing feedbacks.

PS: I tried Propaganda, and it didn't do the things I wanted to. I'd only consider it in a heavy Goblins metagame.

P-M

Jak
02-12-2010, 05:21 PM
Vendilion Clique and Meddling Mage can be run together also. There is some definite synergy there and Meddling Mage just takes the Spell Snare/Daze/Spell Pierce slot.

Waikiki
02-12-2010, 05:29 PM
I also run 1 taiga maindeck. I found firespout to actually cover more problem matchups then path to exile does.

Firespout is strong vs goblins/ichorid/merfolk

where path to exile is only strong vs Merfolk IMO. Cause the other decks could really get a big boost from it.

gustha
02-13-2010, 03:28 AM
Firespout also shuts up a lot of your creature (hierarch, MM, qasali pridemage among the non-flyers). However, I'm testing a bit the deck myself, I'm using this list:

// Lands
1 [GUR] Plains
1 [GUR] Forest
1 [GUR] Island
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [R] Savannah
4 [R] Tropical Island

// Creatures
2 [PS] Meddling Mage
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [BOK] Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
2 [M10] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [SHM] Painter's Servant
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [TO] Llawan, Cephalid Empress

The list is still to refine, I cut a ponder for a 2nd clique (THAT good card), and preferred a 2/1 split with MM and gaddock, to have a chance to deal with ant/belcher/ichorid MD and have the versatility of both gaddock and MM, though gaddock is not as flessible as MM (in the end it stops only fow, at the very least he's fodder for survival). The meta sees zoo, eva green, dark dephts (that's why i'm sticking on path to exile), ant, bant in different versions, merfolk. What concerns me is the realtive lack of countermagic besides fow, but the slots are really very tight, the less useful one being kira: great and all, but we also have like 24 creatures against 4 opponent's swords to plowshares. Zoo having a good presence, she's in ofc, but for the rest she'd be the first card to go out for that 3rd ponder, or maybe for a 4th md RWM. Meddling mages proved good all th day, though with clique spelltutters might have some good point. For the moment, I'm sticking with MM/gaddock.

Waikiki
02-13-2010, 03:42 AM
Firespout also shuts up a lot of your creature (hierarch, MM, qasali pridemage among the non-flyers)

I'd rather blow up a hierarch or pridemage then die next turn to a horde of weenies. Also don't forget wonder makes all of your creatures immune to firespout if wanted.

godryk
02-13-2010, 07:10 AM
If I were to include Meddling Mage I would do it in the place of Spell Snare. Vendilion Clique is awesome, its ability, while sometimes relevant is jut the 30% of his power (maybe 40% if we value information and not only getting rid of something). The main reason I play the card (and I've played it as a 3-of before) is because it's a frakin 3/1 flyer with flash por 1UU. This boy has won me so many games by just blocking something or by attacking through the skies will Goyf and Rhox are busy blocking dudes. I will never play with less than two.

For me, the weakest card in my list is Spell Snare, which is very good in some matchups but not so much in others. I love it against Countertop, Eva Green-like decks, Merfolk and the mirror. However I can understand that someone removes the second counter, as we have never found a really strong card in the slot, but we all have chosen one or another according to personal preference.

What I like of MD Meddling Mage the most is that it releases some SB slots, improving our first game against control and combo. It's good at shutting a card indefinitely, but that's pretty much what Iona does.

For me the 5 decks to beat in Madrid are: Zoo, Merfolk, Ichorid, ANT and Countertop (Supreme and Progenitus). Snare seems more powerful against Zoo and Merfolk, while Mage is way better against ANT and Dredge. Against Countertop it depends on the variant. I trust you guys as you know what you are talking about, but I'm not sure about it and GP Madrid it's too close for me to make MD changes...

Kuma
02-13-2010, 10:59 AM
I am running 4 rhox war monk.

Good man.


Propaganda does not seem that great vs pridemages or merfolk but I will test them.

Spell Snare, Force of Will, and Swords to Plowshares isn't enough? Firespout also "answers" your Pridemages as well. What's wrong with Path to Exile for answering Pridemages and merfolk? It usually gets the job done for me.


I also run 1 taiga maindeck. I found firespout to actually cover more problem matchups then path to exile does.

The problem with Firespout is that it kills every creature you run except Rhox War Monk, Iona, and possibly Tarmogoyf. Granted, you can probably avoid killing Vendilion Cliques and Trygon Predators with it, but are you that hard up for sideboard space? Some combination of Propaganda and Path to Exile would take up a few more sideboard slots, but it wouldn't require you to weaken your manabase and pseudo-wrath yourself.

It's also worth noting the comparison is three Firespout versus four Propaganda since you're sideboarding a Taiga. Even if Firespout is a better answer, you're less likely to draw it.


Firespout is strong vs goblins/ichorid/merfolk

Firespout is not strong against Ichorid because a smart Ichorid player will either:

A) Make you discard it

B) Reanimate a fatty

C) Kill you before you can play it

or

D) Play around it by keeping a mix of Zombie tokens and non-token creatures

Propaganda is strong against Goblins and Ichorid and doesn't require you to compromise your manabase or kill half your creatures.


where path to exile is only strong vs Merfolk IMO. Cause the other decks could really get a big boost from it.

It's also pretty strong agaisnt Zoo and random junk decks. Ichorid doesn't get anything from Path to Exile...


I'd rather blow up a hierarch or pridemage then die next turn to a horde of weenies. Also don't forget wonder makes all of your creatures immune to firespout if wanted.

I thought we weren't running Wonder anymore.

If you have only a Hierarch/Pridemage and they have a horde, something went horribly wrong. Why would you keep a creature light hand like that in the first place.

I'll admit I've never tested Firespout, but there are a lot of issues that need to be addressed. I'd be thrilled if Firespout turns out to be the card we need, and would love to hear your testing results. These questions need answered, though.

Waikiki
02-13-2010, 11:08 AM
Altho I agree firespout doesn't seem to be the solution I am looking for I must say propaganda is most certain not what I am looking for. It just does not work in my meta. Maybe its just me getting hammered by godhands from tribal players lately that I am worried about. I added wonder again when I got situations where I got to the point where I said to myself "wonder would give me the game right here". Which led me to removing rafiq and adding wonder.

In the end firespout is just an option I was willing to test and gave me good results in favor of the matchups I noted(using my list). If it's the best, I am certainly not convinced.

Right now im testing a sideboard without firespout giving me the oppertunity of running more maindeck basic lands and gaining me 4 sideboard spots which I am currently filling with 2 Explosives and 2 path to exile.

adrieng
02-13-2010, 01:04 PM
It seems to me Dueling ground is the solution, this card beats gobelin on his own (modulo siege gang) and it should be very good against merfolk. They can't swarm you anymore and you can attack with exalted RWM etc...

majikal
02-14-2010, 01:43 AM
It seems to me Dueling ground is the solution, this card beats gobelin on his own (modulo siege gang) and it should be very good against merfolk. They can't swarm you anymore and you can attack with exalted RWM etc...
This actually sounds really interesting. I will test it in place of Propaganda.

HBspulse
02-14-2010, 04:40 AM
It's better than propaganda for sure.

Except that it's difficult to keep a decent blue count after sb for force of will.

mossivo1986
02-14-2010, 04:49 AM
Goblins is boarding in grip for you, and probobly relic. Why would you play dueling grounds above path, firespout, blast, or you know better cards?

adrieng
02-14-2010, 06:26 AM
Goblins is boarding in grip for you, and probobly relic. Why would you play dueling grounds above path, firespout, blast, or you know better cards?

Most of the goblin decks don't splash green anymore. But even if they are splashing green, the card is still good they have to draw their grip before you can kill them with iona etc... It gives you a good amount of time, and it is always better than propaganda (red blast, grip etc...)
As for relic, I don't really see the point dueling ground doesn't care of relics. If you want an answer to relics play ancient grudge in sb, it takes care of vial and is really good against others decks such as stax, affinity, dragon stompy, random jitte etc...

Anyway, if you have a better solution than dueling ground tell us. The problem of firespout is the following, they can make huge card advantages with ringeader/matron/siege gang.. So you need a really good clock after spouting or something like iona. Furthermore, you have to splash red, (they have waste and port to avoid you from playing firespout).

Julian23
02-14-2010, 03:06 PM
Went to a tournament yesterday, winning it while giving three maindeck MMs a shot. My list was:

4x Misty Rainforest
4x Windswept Heath
4x Tropical Island
3x Savannah (played one more instead of the 2nd basic island because I included a Witness)
2x Forest
1x Island
1x Plains

4x Noble Hierarch
4x Rhox War Monk
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Meddling Mage
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Kira, Great Glass Spinner
1x Eternal Witness
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Loyal Retainers
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob

4x Survival of the Fitteest
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Spell Snare

SB:
3x Spell Pierce
3x Krosan Grip
3x Path to Exile
2x Pithing Needle
2x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1x Ethersworn Cannonist

1st round: NO Survival Elves (what a stupid name...)
G1: We do a bit of chit-chat before the game and he tells me he plays Survival Elves but doesn't devote a lot of time to Legacy. Game goes as usual, he plays some mana elves while I swords his lords. When I resolve a Meddling Mage wo/ Survival on the board I'm about to name Natural Order when I decide against it as I think he might not be running it at all for budget reasons. I name Sylvan Messenger. He proofs me wrong. His first Natural Order I can counter but the second gets Chuck Norris' avatar. I almost manage to race him with Goyf+RWM but lose the game with him at 1 life.
G2 and G3 were just blowouts. Jitte raped his deck so hard while 7 Plow-effects kept his board clear of lords. Jitte >>> tribal aggro.

1-0

2nd round: Affinity
G1: His decklist owns him pretty hard so I walk away victorious.
G2: He gets a slow start but so do I after forcing Disciple of the Vault. I'm scared as hell of that guy. I manage to send a Master of Etherium farming but he has another. I get a Meddling Mage on Fling which soon has to trade with a Cranial Plated Arcbound Worker. After combat he equips Plating on Master making him 18/9 and tries Fling. A topdecked Spell Snare saves the day and I drop RWM a turn later to stabilize and draw into Survival. Iona (on blue) + another MM on Fling seals the deal.

2-0

3rd round: UB Tempo Faeries with Bitterblossom, Vendillion, Sprites and Tombstalker
G1: He has to mulligan to 4(!) and remains on 2 lands which leaves me free to go crazy with Survival and Iona on black. At this point I suspected a potential red splash for Terminante, we talked about earlier. Right now I think naming blue would have been better. Long story short, he manages to drop Vendillion Clique but who cares?
G2: We fight over my turn 3 Umezawas Jitte and I win by Force of Willing his Spell Snare. It's pretty much game from there as I proceed to drop Survival and Llawan while he extirpates Iona. Still he manages to bouncer her with Jace 2.0 and Vendillion Cliques her away just to see her reappear the turn after. Inbetween Noble Hierarch grabed a Jitte and kept withering away on his life total while accumulating 6 (!) Jitte counter. A turn later Kira joins the fun which shuts down the Jace-bouncer. The game goes on for quite a bit but he eventually just loses.

3-0

4th round: GBW Rock
Hee seems to be a competent player piloting a deck which I back then had no idea what the matchup was like about. We agree on an ID as we're the only persons with 3-0 right now and decide to just win in round 5. We play it out for Fun and I just win because unlike counterspells, discard has a hard time answering Brainstorms hiding Survival of the Fittest. When I resolve it he just loses the battle of attrition although his MAINDECK Extirpates removed my Swords.

3-0-1

5th round: The Truffle Shuffle
G1: An early Iona on white is soon joined by THREE Meddling Mages on Maelstrom Pulse, Punishment and Deed only to lose the entire team to Damnation. What a cooler! I make two 6/7 Goyf hoping to just take him down but he plays Punishment for 2. I then manage to Eternal Witness back my Retainers and reanimate Iona for a second and lethal time.
G2: His early Thoughtseize takes my Rhow War Monk instead of Survival which could have made me think he had Krosan Grip if I didn't already know because I constructed his sideboard with him. I make 2 Goyfs soon which are both sent farming. Fortunately I proceed to draw Iona so I can drop Survival and get an activation out of it before he grips it. After that I drop Iona on GREEN because he already played 2 Swords and has a Moment's Peace in his graveyard an maybe even more in his hand. Naming green also shuts down his 4 copies of Eternal Witness which might grab a Pulse in the graveyard. I misscalculate and Iona gets him down to only 1 while I am at like 30+ life when he topdecks Vindicate and gets rid of her. After that his Treetop and a Goyf start beating me down all the way to five life while I draw just blanks. I then topdeck Path and exile Goyf while Treetop beats me to 2. The turn after that I summon a topdecked RWM which keeps his Treetop on defense. Life totals: me 2, him 1. I plan on attacking my RWM into his Treetop as he will be forcedd to block. Things get even better when I topdeck Pithing Needle and after I play it he asks me to name -> Treetop. Turns out he didn't know he can't still response but even if he activated Treetop before I would have named his Divining Top denying him any additonal trickery (he had 3 blanks on top, he told me after). RWM swings for lethal damage and I win.


4-0-1 => 1st place and take a Savannah

CONCLUSIONS:

I will definitly be playing Eternal Witness in Madrid. She's like a tutorable copy of all your non-creature spells which really helps a lot. Meddling Mages instead of Vendillions Cliques seemed fine although I didn't really encounter any relevant matchups besides NO Survival Elves where I missplayed in a way it won't happen in Spain. Really liked the sideboard although I almost knew I wasn't gonna face Dredge that day and therfor still have to squeeze in at least 4 cards for that matchup although I don't like it. Concerning Jitte, I will at least play 2 of these. I knew it is good but it sometimes just dominates in unreal fashion. The only thing I really missed was the speed Clique provides and the great synergy it has with your exalted dudes. Also having evasion is kinda big of a deal. I will play some more games with Mages.

Nelis
02-14-2010, 03:33 PM
I also run 1 taiga maindeck. I found firespout to actually cover more problem matchups then path to exile does.

Firespout is strong vs goblins/ichorid/merfolk

where path to exile is only strong vs Merfolk IMO. Cause the other decks could really get a big boost from it.

I don't play this deck but I disagree with you that Path to Exile is strong vs Merfolk. You want to keep Merfolk as low on lands as possible. I'm actually a big fan of Path to Exile but vs Merfolk Swords to Plowshares really is better.

Jak
02-14-2010, 03:36 PM
I don't play this deck but I disagree with you that Path to Exile is strong vs Merfolk. You want to keep Merfolk as low on lands as possible. I'm actually a big fan of Path to Exile but vs Merfolk Swords to Plowshares really is better.

Swords is of course better, but Path alongside Swords is what he and everyone else is talking about. Path picks off their lords which is the most important thing in the MU because it completely shuts their clock and creatures down. Giving them a land is fine if it keeps a horde of islandwalking fish from eating you.

@Julian
I really like the list and props on the win.

JACO
02-15-2010, 01:42 AM
Gentlemen, here is the third (and probably final) article on the deck for the near future:
Focus on Legacy - Alternative Sideboarding With Bant Survival (http://www.team-pataners.com/focus-on-legacy-alternative-sideboarding-with-bant-survival/)

Thanks in advance for whatever comments you may have in that thread. Kuma, big thanks to your critiques and discussion so far. I appreciate it.

Also, Julian your tournament writeups have been great, so keep them coming when you can, and congratulations on your success.

MSC
02-15-2010, 05:19 AM
It seems to me Dueling ground is the solution, this card beats gobelin on his own (modulo siege gang) and it should be very good against merfolk. They can't swarm you anymore and you can attack with exalted RWM etc...

I've tested this before, but it extremely slows you down, which you don't want. Granted the fact, that you likely loose against Game 1 you need to win 2 times in max 35min. Giving your opponent the chance to infinitly chumpblock isn't what you want. If you want to use Dueling Ground, at least play Wonder AND at least 4 Flying Creatures....

majikal
02-15-2010, 01:09 PM
I've tested this before, but it extremely slows you down, which you don't want. Granted the fact, that you likely loose against Game 1 you need to win 2 times in max 35min. Giving your opponent the chance to infinitly chumpblock isn't what you want. If you want to use Dueling Ground, at least play Wonder AND at least 4 Flying Creatures....
I think the idea is that you infinitely chumb block them while you set up your Iona combo. Shouldn't take that long really.

Kuma
02-15-2010, 06:06 PM
Goblins is boarding in grip for you, and probobly relic. Why would you play dueling grounds above path, firespout, blast, or you know better cards?

I can't remember the last time I played against a Goblins list with Krosan Grip. Deckcheck shows a significant number of lists running Grips --- it must be a regional thing. Even if I'm playing against a Goblins player with Grips, Dueling Grounds/Propaganda/Ghostly Prison is still a useful card. Most lists run fewer copies than you run cards they want to remove, and Dueling Grounds/Propaganda/Ghostly Prison will usually buy you multiple turns. These cards may not be an auto-win against all Goblins lists, but they're still damn good.

Relic of Progenitus is a bad card for us, but I don't know what Path to Exile, Firespout, and Blue Blasts do about it that Dueling Grounds, Propaganda, and Ghostly Prison don't.

Path to Exile and Blue Blasts haven't been enough in my experience. They buy you a little time, but Goblins has inevitability on you. Firespout kills most of our creatures and weakens the manabase, but it seems stronger than Path to Exile or Blue Blasts. The problem is eventually, they will resolve Matrons and Ringleaders and bury you in an army of hasty goblins.

@Dueling Grounds

It could be a little stronger against Zoo and Merfolk than Propaganda and Ghostly Prison without sacrificing much, if anything, against Goblins. It's also slightly weaker against Belcher and Dredge. I'll keep it in mind the next time I play and take note of how my games would have gone differently.

majikal
02-17-2010, 12:13 AM
Played a [very] small Legacy tourney at the LGS tonight. Most matches were a breeze (and I didn't bother taking notes... it was crap like Superman Elf Combo, some kind of Archive Trap/Bloodchief Ascension jank, and Allies. Iona just raped their faces) until I played against Matt and his Merfolk in the last round.

Game one was a blowout where he drew three Wastelands and caught me with my pants down. Second game I boarded in Path to Exile, Llawan, and Scryb Ranger, which won me the game by returning my Tropical Islands to my hand and infinitely blocking his Wake Thrasher until I could blow up his Aether Vial and get Llawan into play. Game three looked a lot like game one though. I swear this guy is a Wasteland magnet! Every game he drew at least 3 of them.

Sideboarding against this matchup is pretty rough. I kind of feel like going for the Iona win against them is too slow/risky. Is boarding out the Survival package for Propaganda/Ghostly Prison/Dueling Grounds the correct call here?

Kuma
02-17-2010, 11:41 AM
Sideboarding against this matchup is pretty rough. I kind of feel like going for the Iona win against them is too slow/risky. Is boarding out the Survival package for Propaganda/Ghostly Prison/Dueling Grounds the correct call here?

Propaganda and Ghostly Prison aren't that great against Merfolk. I haven't tested Dueling Grounds, but it seems like it might be a little better. I usually use some combination of Path to Exile, Llawan, Cephalid Empress, and Kira, Great Glass Spinner.

I wouldn't board out the Survival package. It's strong even in the Merfolk matchup. What I wouldn't do is keep hands that rely on Survival and are slow to develop.

Jak
02-18-2010, 01:23 AM
I am questioning Kira in the main deck. It is average for me in most matchups (CounterTop, Goblins, Merfolk, etc) while being strong in a select few (Lands, Zoo, the Rock). Definitely is turning out to be more of a sideboard card since Iona wins without the protection (game 1 at least) and it answers a select few of hard matchups. I am trying to make space for 3 Meddling Mage and Kira is the first on the chopping block. I still need to cut another creature.

Is anyone else having these feelings?

Jokemon
02-18-2010, 03:06 AM
Yes, my Kira is jumping out and in my MD often. I havent decided where he belongs yet.

Julian23
02-18-2010, 08:35 AM
I really enjoy Kira in the MD and in addition to the protection she provides evasive beats which is of importance to me after I cut Sprites and Cliques for the MD Mages which I seem to get to like more with each game I play. Those Mages now take the slots in which other people play Sprites, Cliques, Ponders or any other third counter behind Force and Spell Snare/Daze/etc.
Oh, and since my sb is so tight I couldn't even find space for Kira there even if I decided to put her in the board.

Kuma
02-18-2010, 11:31 AM
I am questioning Kira in the main deck. It is average for me in most matchups (CounterTop, Goblins, Merfolk, etc) while being strong in a select few (Lands, Zoo, the Rock). Definitely is turning out to be more of a sideboard card since Iona wins without the protection (game 1 at least) and it answers a select few of hard matchups. I am trying to make space for 3 Meddling Mage and Kira is the first on the chopping block. I still need to cut another creature.

Is anyone else having these feelings?

I've been running Kira in the sideboard for a while, and in an undefined meta that's where it belongs. I don't know what the Goblin lists look like in your area, but mine are running multiple Gempalm Incinerators and Stingscourgers with Pyrokinesis in the board. Kira is invaluable for protecting Iona and the rest of your army in that matchup. I agree that it isn't that great against CounterTop, but I like having an answer to Merfolk's Kiras that I can Survival for. It's hardly gamebreaking in that matchup, though.


I really enjoy Kira in the MD and in addition to the protection she provides evasive beats which is of importance to me after I cut Sprites and Cliques for the MD Mages which I seem to get to like more with each game I play. Those Mages now take the slots in which other people play Sprites, Cliques, Ponders or any other third counter behind Force and Spell Snare/Daze/etc.
Oh, and since my sb is so tight I couldn't even find space for Kira there even if I decided to put her in the board.

@Julian23, Jak, and anyone else running or contemplating running Meddling Mage

What matchups do you really want Meddling Mage for? What do you name in these matchups? I want to give it a shot, but I can't see it being really strong against anything but combo.

MSC
02-18-2010, 11:42 AM
What matchups do you really want Meddling Mage for? What do you name in these matchups? I want to give it a shot, but I can't see it being really strong against anything but combo.

Loam: Nameing Loam in the Beginning or Dreams if you're ahead.
Dredge: Nameing Return

It also is a Maindeck Answer to recurring Explosives...

Waikiki
02-18-2010, 11:59 AM
I play MM since a long time now and allready done multiple tournaments with it and it's just good against control en aggro control decks. Also vs combo and ichorid its very strong.

Only vs ichorid my first name would be Cabal therapy not DR.

Other things It often names are:

snuff out / chant / deed / wog / life from the loam etc. Its very situational.

Julian23
02-18-2010, 01:37 PM
I mostly name Life from the Loam, Engineered Explosives, Devastating Dreams, Swords to Plowshares and - when in doubt - my opponent's CA spells.

Jak
02-18-2010, 05:09 PM
@Julian23, Jak, and anyone else running or contemplating running Meddling Mage

What matchups do you really want Meddling Mage for? What do you name in these matchups? I want to give it a shot, but I can't see it being really strong against anything but combo.

I've been testing them a bit, but not as much as Waikiki or other people that got with them faster. I like that they are never truly dead and can turn games around.

Hard to tell you what to name and when since there are so many variables. The main things for me that usually haven't changed are Loam for Life from the Loam based decks (although that can change in games to their removal, their creatures, w/e depending on a lot of things), Dread Return against Dredge, and Ad Nauseum or Tendrils against combo.

Also, I am trying to fit the 3 Mages alongside 2 Cliques, 4 Rhox War Monk, and 3 Spell Snare so it hasn't been easy.

Waikiki
02-18-2010, 05:37 PM
So far I have not been able to fit in the cliques. Neither spell snares. I still prefer the ponders to find more hate cards from the board game 2.

godryk
02-18-2010, 06:10 PM
Rather than asking what to name with Mage, the right question here is if you'll play Mage over Ponder, Spell Snare/Daze or Vendilion Clique. You will end up playing some combination of both. Most of people seems reluctant to remove Ponder (some others don't), as it just adds tons of consistency to the deck, and this deck is good because it can mimic Bant Aggro when Survival has been FoW'ed, Gripped, Needled or simply not drawn yet. I see most of people is playing Mage in the spot of Snare or Clique. Of course, if you're filling the deck with silver-bullets, you'll have less room and then you'll have to choose either Mage, Snare or Clique. Though Clique can serve as a control card, for me it's an aggresive combat-oriented card (specially since we all removed Wonder from the deck) which gives you a LOT of tactical information, letting you clear the way for Iona. Of course Mage is better at shutting down cards.

So for me it's just about Snare VS Mage. Keeping GP Madrid in mind, I assume there are going to be 5 decks to beat according to what people is talking about and GPTs data:
- Zoo (the deck to beat)
- Merfolk
- Countertop
- Dredge
- ANT

Againt Merfolk and Zoo Snare is just better. Against Countertop, it depends on the version. We'll se lots of Progenitus at Madrid, so I guess Mage on Natural Order is a good call, but against other variants, being able to counter CB on the draw has won me too many games. Against ANT and Dredge Mage is clearly the way to go. What I don't like about Mage for Madrid it's that it seems rather bad against aggro decks, which seem that will be an important part of the field. What I like of Mage the most is that it frees a lot of room in our very tight SB.

What do you think about the Snare VS Mage issue? I guess others may have removed Clique and some silver bullets for Mage.

St3B
02-18-2010, 06:28 PM
What I don't like about Mage for Madrid it's that it seems rather bad against aggro decks, which seem that will be an important part of the field. What I like of Mage the most is that it frees a lot of room in our very tight SB.

What do you think about the Snare VS Mage issue? I guess others may have removed Clique and some silver bullets for Mage.

I haven't tested MM yet, but on paper he seems good vs Merfolk, either stpping Vail (making Iona devastating) or Standstill. Against Zoo you could try to name PtE and drop Iona on red, but you're right he can't block and kill a Kird Ape or Nacatl which makes him not as good. I think I would SB Clique out in both matchups anyway for better cards, so I don't think it makes such a difference.

godryk
02-18-2010, 06:38 PM
I like Vendilion in the Merfolk matchup and will leave at least one against them, but anyway, if I were playing MM I'll be siding it out against those decks too, so this doesn't help me too much. :frown:

Julian23
02-18-2010, 07:24 PM
Just because I don't wanna hate myself for not giving it a try I'm now giving 2-3 maindeck Stonecloaker a shot in Meddling Mages's spot. While being almost as effective on offense as Clique (can't take away removal) it also solves the Life from the Loam issue I use MM by far most for and shuts down Academy Ruinsn recursion. Bonus against Zoo: it lets you dodge their removal and ambush creatures. It might also be useful in the mirror. Another potential application is pseudo-countering IGG game 1 when Faerie is not yet available.

/edit: guess the return a creature part makes him not good enough on offense. Im trying 2 now.

Jak
02-20-2010, 05:49 PM
What are people boarding out for Merfolk/Zoo? I need to bring in 5-8 cards and its been difficult trying to sideboard against them with a Meddling Mage list.

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Survival of the Fittest

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Meddling Mage
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Rhox War Monl
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Eternal Witness
1 Trygon Predator
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

SB
3 Krosan Grip
3 Spell Pierce
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Path to Exile
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress

Zoo
-4 Force of Will
-2 Meddling Mage

+3 Umezawa's Jitte
+2 Path to Exile
+1 Kira

Merfolk
-3 Spell Snare
-2 Noble Hierarch
-2 Meddling Mage
-1 Eternal Witness

+3 Umezawa's Jitte
+2 Path to Exile
+2 Krosan Grip
+1 Llawan

Are people boarding similar? Or is there a better strategy I missed.

St3B
02-20-2010, 09:15 PM
@JAK
Isn't 18 lands and no Ponder too less? I'm playing 19 and find myself often short on mana. I've been thinking of adding a Dryad Arbor, what do you guys think?
What do you think about adding 1 Stoneforge Mythic instead of a Jitte, you could search for it with Survival.

Forbiddian
02-21-2010, 03:46 PM
Hey, Jak. how are the videos going?

You and I should play UW Tempo vs. Survival and post commentaries from both perspectives.

Jak
02-21-2010, 04:34 PM
@JAK
Isn't 18 lands and no Ponder too less? I'm playing 19 and find myself often short on mana. I've been thinking of adding a Dryad Arbor, what do you guys think?
What do you think about adding 1 Stoneforge Mythic instead of a Jitte, you could search for it with Survival.

I haven't been having problems. I hate getting mana flooded and that was happening a lot when I ran 20 lands. Cutting it down felt right and I never had problems at 19 and I am not having problems at 18. I miss Ponder more for the fact that it was a card I can take out for sideboarding in several matchups than the dig it provided. Both were great and sometimes I remove the Snares for 2 Ponders and something else (Land, another Pridemage, maybe another Mage or Kira).

Nice idea on the 1 Stoneforger. I'm going to try it out.


Hey, Jak. how are the videos going?

You and I should play UW Tempo vs. Survival and post commentaries from both perspectives.

I've downloaded Audacity and Camstudios and gotten them set up but have been having trouble getting Windows Movie Maker because I need IE 8 for the download.

Edit - Nvm, I got it, but I am missing a mic. I'll let you know once I get everything worked out.

HBspulse
02-22-2010, 09:59 AM
Hi,

me and Waikiki played bant survival in a 65 player tournament this weekend. Results weren't that great however.

I went 4-3;
Wins against :
Combo elves
Merfolk
Merfolk
Landstill

Loss against :
Monored goblins (shouldn't have happened)
Dreadnought (counterbalance, stifle, wastes, a nightmare for this deck)
Reanimator (no really good sb against it)

I decided to cut the singletons (kira, wonder, rafiq) for some more real bombs : natural order-progenitus.

19 land
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Island
2 Forest
3 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Dryad Arbor

18 creatures (19 with dryad arbor)
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, SHield of Emeria
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Rhox war monk
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Progenitus

24 other
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Natural order
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ponder
3 Daze

SB :
2 Ethersworn cannonist
2 Null rod
2 Krosan grip
1 Llawan, cephalid empress
3 Propaganda
3 Spell Pierce
2 Path to exile

The games I lost, I was outtempo'd. Survival takes a while before you get a return on investment if you are under pressure. Two cards and six mana to put a tarmogoyf on the board, not playing around daze and getting a squee in the yard. Usually I lacked the mana to get back in the fight. Survival is slow.

Natural order won me games off course, being a faster win-condition. I sided it out against slower control decks and mana denial decks.

If I was not playing Natural order, I would make bant survival a more controllish deck, adding more counters or more creature control, to get to the late game and win on survival.

I'm still not sure what way to go with the deck. I don't really believe in meddling mage or playing a lot of singletons (except for iona-lr) in the deck.

Enigma
02-22-2010, 09:35 PM
I can't stop winning with this deck, it's pure awesome. Iona gave another life to the deck. It's the first blue aggro-control deck since Canadian Thresh that I'm able to beat Landstill but with even more consistency.

I won 3-0 on our weekly tournement last week, once again, facing: Vampires, Dragon Stompy and Landstill.

P-M

majikal
02-23-2010, 04:40 AM
Loss against :
Monored goblins (shouldn't have happened)
Dreadnought (counterbalance, stifle, wastes, a nightmare for this deck)
Reanimator (no really good sb against it)

This is truly a horrendous matchup. It's so fast, and they've got hand disruption. I think the sideboard has the tools to beat it, but you have to get lucky and hope they don't draw enough countermagic/discard to punch through anyway.

I think the best sideboard option would be something like -4 StP (I know this seems odd, but from my experience you can't target any of their guys anyway), -2 Hierarch/Ponder, +3 Spell Pierce, +3 Faerie Macabre

HBspulse
02-23-2010, 04:59 AM
This is truly a horrendous matchup. It's so fast, and they've got hand disruption. I think the sideboard has the tools to beat it, but you have to get lucky and hope they don't draw enough countermagic/discard to punch through anyway.

I think the best sideboard option would be something like -4 StP (I know this seems odd, but from my experience you can't target any of their guys anyway), -2 Hierarch/Ponder, +3 Spell Pierce, +3 Faerie Macabre

QFT. If you have graveyard hate of course. I chose propaganda/path to exile for adressing ichorid, however never expected reanimator.

It's clear the deck has problems with the following decks :
- counterbalance strategies
- really fast aggro
- stifle/waste decks
- graveyard based decks

1mpulse
02-23-2010, 06:32 AM
It's clear the deck has problems with the following decks :
- counterbalance strategies
- really fast aggro
- stifle/waste decks
- graveyard based decks

So what is this deck good against?

HBspulse
02-23-2010, 07:39 AM
One of the few aggro-control decks that has a good matchup against control e.g., thx to iona.

Things that are going ok, depending on your build :
- Zoo (if you play path and swords after sb)
- Landstill
- Combo
- Faeries, merfolk, never less than 50/50, depending on their build
- The rock
- Non-survival bant decks without counterbalance
- Random.dec 1
- Random.dec 2
...

If this is your meta, you will do fine. I was hoping somebody also tried the combination of survival and natural order, i'll hear it if you do.

Waikiki
02-23-2010, 07:46 AM
I really do not agree, I haven't lost a single match vs CB top decks so far. We got a large vary of CC and also I run 3 pridemages main that they need to get rid of or resolve CB before. My experience is they cant keep up with the pressure we are able to deliver.

IMO, the deck only has a problem vs Dredge game 1, but has a 50/50 matchup against the entire field some a little in our advantage and some a lil in their. Thats the nice thing this deck offers. No unwinnable matchups. The downside is that we have to fight for each win. We do not have something like a bye matchup. Aside from the rogue decks.

miR
02-23-2010, 03:42 PM
Well I play Bant survival and thats my list of the deck.

Bant survival

Lands (18)

4 Tropical island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

Spells (20)

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to plowshares
4 Survival of the fittest

Creatures (22)

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox war monk
4 Noble hierach
2 Qsali Pridemage
1 Trygon Predator
1 Iona, shield of emeria
1 Loyal retainers
1 Rafiq of the many
1 wonder
2 Vendilion clique
1 Squee Globin naboob
1 Eternal Witness

Sideboard

3 Relic of progenitus
3 Meddling Mage
2 Etherswon Cannonist
1 Llawan cephalid empress
1 Jotun Grunt
3 Path to exile
1 Sower of temptation
1 Qsali Pridemage

Now I explain why I choose those cards instead of others.

Meddling Mage or vendilion clique?
Well that's intresting becauses MM it's to good againts combo ( ANT, Ichorid ( naming cabal therapy and Dread return ) and life from the loam decks or empty the warrens. Also is good agains decks that's all around 1 card and then if u name it they have alot of difficult to win. But then if we play agains aggro ( zoo, stompy ect..) you will sideboard it. Clique i'ts very good agains combo and it's still good against aggro and aggrocontrol deck becauses he's still a beater 3-1 flying ( 4-2 with exalted ) and his hability is awesome. I preffer clique for be a more agressive deck.

Daze or spell snare or only force of will?
Daze I think it's better because you don't need to keep one mana for cast it. Yes maybie slows our game but you slows his game too.! The opponents plays differents if we ussing daze because they will wait for cast a secure spell waiting for his secure mana. Spell snare it's only good against decks who abuse on cast 2. Decks like ichorid,dragon stompy,sea stompy,vampires,goblins ect... is a bad card for MD then because sometimes won't play it... Then I run daze because I preffer use 8 counters insted of 4 I preffer a little a bit of control because 4 fows isn't enought.

Rafiq and wonder on MD
I include Rafiq and wonder because they can win the game easy on lategame. On late rafiq it's a good finisher giving you a exalted + double strike hitting with 8 with a clique or 16 with a iona. Wonder is an another win condition when the opponent can block your beaters with wonder will be like gg. Also can help with Survival

SIDEBOARD
-Relic of progenitus---> ichorid, agroloam and decks based on cementery
-Meddling Mage---> ANT,ichorid, combo decks....
-Ethersworst Cannonist---> same as MM
-LLawan---> Merfolk,sea stompy
-Jotung Grunt--->Ichorid, Aggroloam
-Path to exile--->Zoo,merfolks,goblins,stompy
-Sower of temptation---> Big beaters
-Qsali Pridemage--->affinity,countertop,painters ect....

Suggestions SB
-Spell pierce
-kira
-Gaddock teg
-Natural order+progenitus
-Spore Frog
-propaganda

majikal
02-24-2010, 07:50 AM
QFT. If you have graveyard hate of course. I chose propaganda/path to exile for adressing ichorid, however never expected reanimator.

It's clear the deck has problems with the following decks :
- counterbalance strategies
- really fast aggro
- stifle/waste decks
- graveyard based decks
I disagree with the first two points. You've got enough variance in your converted mana costs to get around Counterbalance most of the time, and especially with enough Rhox War Monks you can just race the fast aggro decks. Stifle/Waste decks can go either way, though, but I wouldn't exactly say it's a problem. You obviously must fetch basics, but if they're playing Sinkhole it's probably going to suck anyway. The only matches so far that have given me huge problems have been Reanimator and Merfolk (and it's mainly due to Lord of Atlantis and Reejerey and me never drawing enough removal in time to deal with them rather than Stifle/Waste).

Esper3k
02-24-2010, 10:20 PM
Hey guys,

Got back from PT San Diego and thought I'd post up my tournament report for the Sunday Legacy side event (prizes were Mox Emerald and Mox Ruby).

Sadly, I made Day 2 of the PT, so I couldn't play in the Friday or Saturday Legacy events - I was really itching to give Bant Survival a go!

Here's the decklist I played:

Bant Survival
Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
3 Savannah
1 Tundra
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Trygon Predator
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Vendelion Clique
1 Wonder
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Eternal Witness
Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

Sideboard
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Path to Exile
1 Genesis
2 Spell Pierce
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
1 Sower of Temptation

54 players, 6 rounds of swiss, then cut to a T4.

Round 1 - Swiss (vs Andrew?)

Before the round we were talking and he mentioned that he doesn't play Legacy much and might need to ask about some cards. That's fine, just because he's inexperienced doesn't mean he's bad.

Game 1: I win the die roll and drop a Noble Hierarch. He drops a Badlands and an Aether Vial. I drop a Goyf on T2 to bait any possible countermagics (unlikely given the Badlands) and my suspicions are confirmed when he goes for a Piledriver on T2, which I Force. Knowing the way is clear, I drop a Survival and swing in with the Goyf. On his turn he untaps, plays a land... and Krosan Grips my Survival! Wtf!?!? The maindeck Grips really throw me for a loop, but I continue on with the Goyf beats. This game actually turns out to be a long and grinding game as he chains Ringleader into Ringleader, but keeps chump blocking my Exalted 8/9 Goyf that's swinging in each turn. The turning point of the game comes when he attacks into my Rhox War Monk with his team (including 2 Piledrivers) and I have double StP for the Piledrivers. The RWM kills his Chieftain and he's suddenly backpedaling when my Goyf and RWM start crashing back in next turn. He eventually runs out of chump blockers and I take the game.

Game 2: I get out Survival quickly and make sure I have enough mana to pitch and fetch for the Iona/Retainers combo before he can Grip it. Iona comes out and sadly, I have to name Black (I didn't want to lose to double Warren Weirding). He eventually drops a bunch of goblins while I set up my Tarmogoyf walls and Iona swinging in the air. The turn he's about to die, he attempts to cycle Gempalm Incinerator to hit Iona for 7, but I have the PtE to take out a Piledriver and make the damage only 6.

1-0 (2-0)

Rund 2 - Swiss (vs Chris)

Chris is a guy who actually recently moved to the San Diego area. We talk briefly about him trying to find a playgroup over in the area then our round gets started.

Game 1: I vaguely remember Chris playing in the match next to me in Round 1 and I remember his match being over really really quickly, so I'm guessing he's playing some sort of combo. With this feeling in mind, I pitch a decent hand (but with now FoW) and get a hand with FoW. My feeling pays off when he (he won the die roll) leads off with Cycle Street Wraith, Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame... and I Force the 2nd Rite. Because he didn't play any lands and used Street Wraith, I had him pegged for Charbelcher as opposed to AnT. The key to this matchup is preventing them from getting to 4 mana because while you can be greedy and wait to Force the Charbelcher, you look like a real idiot when they Empty the Warrens on you instead. I drop a Hierarch, then a Goyf and beat him up. A Vendelion Clique on his draw step prompts the concession.

Game 2: I open a hand of Brainstorm, Brainstorm, FoW, Fetch Land, Gaddock Teeg, Ethersworn Canonist, Iona. I keep because I'm fairly certain I can find a land with the second Brainstorm if I have to pitch one to FoW. He goes for it again on T1 and I have the FoW again to keep him from getting to 4 mana. I get a Trop out and Brainstorm and see a Savannah. Drop the Savannah and Teeg next turn. Still no scoop? Drop the Canonist T3. Ah there it is.

2-0 (4-0)

Round 3 - Swiss (vs Demitry)

Demitry is a Russian guy who said he was one of the creators of Aggro Loam. Sounds like it'll be a tough matchup!

Game 1: I drop a T2 Goyf, which gets Lightning Bolted. This doesn't seem like Aggro Loam at all? We go back and forth with him StPing my guys and me returning the favor. He starts Loaming, I pick up a Warning for using Brainstorm like an Ancestral Recall (oops!), then I Clique him on his draw step after he dredges Loam and I see a hand of Mox Diamond, Lands, Loam, and Devestating Dreams. I pitch the Loam because I'm afraid of it, but in hindsight, I should've killed the DD because he draws into Knight of the Reliquary off of my Clique, plays it, then DD's the shit out of both of us next turn, but makes his Knight enormous. Against the Knight and my empty board, he quickly crushes me. He tells me after the game that this is a new version of Aggro Loam he's been working on.

Game 2: He gets some early Tarmogoyfs out, and tries to Pithing Needle Survival, but I had a G open and fetched up a Qasali Pridemage in response to kill his Needle on my turn. I get Iona on White going and he can't really recover while I gum up the board.

Game 3: Another long drawn out game. He's beating me up with Goyfs, but I shrink everyone's Goyfs to wimps with a Relic then Crypt him when he leaves Loam in the yard. I manage to resolve a Survival and Sower one of his Goyfs with his hand empty, but I'm at 3 life. I get a StP, but leave it in my hand because I wanted to make sure I didn't lose to a topdecked Lightning Bolt or Seismic Assault. A friend of mine pointed out here that I should've StP'd his one blocking Goyf then swung in with my own Goyf + his Goyf + Sower and I would've killed him in 2 turns. Oops. We draw and move onto the next round.

2-0-1 (5-1-1)

Round 4 - Swiss (vs Ville)

Doh! Ville is a guy from Finland that was playing Vampires (I played Vamps in the PT) next to me in Rounds 3 and 4 in the PT! Sucks to have to play a friend. What's even funnier is that inbetween Rounds 1 and 2, we were talking about Legacy and had shown each other our decks! So, I knew he was playing a BUG CounterTop deck that was running Wasteland, Bob, and the new Jace.

Demitry (the guy I played in the previous round) was playing next to me... against the standard build of Aggro Loam!

Game 1: Ville wins the die roll and has to mulligan to 5. I get out double Tarmogoyfs and start going to town. While he gets double Bob (who are very kind to him, I might add!), he's taking a lot of damage. He lands Jace and bounces one of my Goyfs, but I land Kira and Jace is very sad. He can't keep up and my Goyfs get there.

Game 2: I resolve Survival early on, then Iona comes out on black. He makes a mistake (later on he tells me, he accidentally shuffled away a Submerge before I got Iona out) and it ends up costing him the game when he can't find Jace to answer Iona.

3-0-1 (7-1-1)

Round 5 - Swiss (vs Sabastian)

Sabastian is a guy from Germany. We talk a bit about the Legacy format as a whole since he's going to be going to GP Madrid.

Game 1: I keep a hand with Misty Rainforest as my only land, but I have double Hierarch and FoW to protect from Stifle. He wins the die roll and leads off with Island, Aether Vial. Merfolk. Knowing that Merfolk tend to run Wastelands, I drop my Misty and crack it to fetch a basic land. Searching for basic, searching for basic, found it! Play it immediately... then I notice I fetched an Island. &(*&($*&#!!!!! Yeah, that cost me the game as I didn't find a green mana producing land until T3 and he chained 3 Standstills together.

Game 2: Survival comes down, Iona pops out. Aether Vials are destroyed and cards are scooped.

Game 3: A long drawn out game. I have large blockers and he doesn't have a Lord of Atlantis out yet. I eventually resolve Survival and start pumping out Goyfs and War Monks. The turn I'm about to swing in for lethal, he draws the Lord and kills me. It would've been nice if I had drawn one of the 4 Swords to Plowshares and 3 Path to Exiles...

3-1-1 (8-3-1)

Round 6 - Swiss (vs Eric)

Eric was the guy playing Aggro Loam against Demitry and he had won! His was the more current standard build (with Pulses instead of the Wishboard and DD) but he kept the old school Terravores as I later found.

Game 1: Playing an opponent who's not playing blue means I can just run Survival out and go nuts. Iona on Green shuts off Pulse and Loam and he can't really do much before the angel gets him.

Game 2: We go back and forth, but I get the upper hand with some Goyfs crushing in on him. He gets his Loam engine going, but keeps getting some pretty terrible draws and Dredges (like he'd dredge his Pulses and Engineered Explosives into the yard while drawing Mox Diamonds and lands) and can't prevent my Goyfs from smashing him.

4-1-1 (10-3-1)

You had to be a 5-1 to get in, so I ended up finishing 6th and getting 3 Worldwake packs.

I had a blast playing the deck though. Definitely don't want to play Wonder in the main anymore - I think I may try 1 Jotun Grunt because there were times I wish I could've gotten back some dead creatures from the yard.

5doorfury
02-25-2010, 01:02 AM
Nice job Esper3k and thanks for the write up!

Two questions though. First, did you miss having more disruption in the main (spell snare, pierce, daze, etc)? Also, how was the macabre, would you have rather had something else? Perhaps a Rafiq or something else?

Iranon
02-25-2010, 03:31 AM
Someone is going to take me outside and beat me up for saying this... but is Tarmogoyf really all that good here? I'd rather play Jotun Grunt.

- If the opponent doesn't have goyfs, they fill the same role (biggest normal creature around)
- If the opponent does, you'd rather shrink them than match them. Exalted can break ties, but you'd probably rather swing with your War Monks.
- They can recycle your tricks, with a card that doesn't suck on its own and doesn't keep costing mana.
- They can complicate things for milling or slower graveyard-dependent strategies.

Also, Mother of Runes works well with practically every aspect of the deck whether backing up Exalted attackers, providing an unbeatable blocker or protecting Iona / hatebears.Cheap enough to dig up on the side, but without Anger needing a turn until she comes online sucks.

chokin
02-25-2010, 04:34 AM
I think that Goyf is a necessary part of the deck because you want the deck to be good without Survival, but with Survival, go crazy. Goyf is the ultimate "answer" to Goyf. With a single Exalted creature, he outclasses other Goyfs. RWM is house in this deck, which is why I upped my count from 2 to 3 and I've been working to squeeze in the 4th.

Grunt would be like a one of as a form of gravehate that hangs out to beat or block for a bit. Using it to recycle would be ok, but I usually use the graveyard as a toolbox (which is why Genesis hangs out somewhere in the 75 usually). If you want a grave-hate guy that is in Bant colors and beats and blocks, Loaming Shaman is pretty good. And of course, Faerie Macabre plays nicely with Genesis, but doesn't block or beat.

Mother of Runes is ok too. Kira just does her job with less effort. Benefit of Mom is that she can send an attacker through enemy lines, chump block all day, and save one creature from a damaging sweeper like Pyroclasm or Firespout. But Mom takes a turn while Kira is as soon as it comes online.

Hey...did you just go through the utility creatures of UW Tempo (The Deck Formerly Known as NoGoyf) and suggest them here? I can see through your dirty tricks *eyes narrow*

Esper3k
02-25-2010, 09:01 AM
Nice job Esper3k and thanks for the write up!

Two questions though. First, did you miss having more disruption in the main (spell snare, pierce, daze, etc)? Also, how was the macabre, would you have rather had something else? Perhaps a Rafiq or something else?

Thanks!

Disruption: I actually didn't miss having more disruption. The combination of FoW, StP, and Clique seemed just fine. From what I found, most of the time, your opponents are trying to disrupt you as opposed to the other way around since you're constantly dropping threats they have to answer.

Faerie Macabre: I ran this as a 1-of main because I really hate losing to the graveyard based decks game 1. With Survival out, you can really surprise someone with it.

Rafiq: I haven't been very impressed with Rafiq in my testing. He doesn't make a good blocker when you're behind and he doesn't help you overrun your opponent when they have less creatures, not to mention costing 4 mana. The only time I've found him to be good is when you already essentially have the game locked up (you have the ground tied up with blockers and you're swinging in overhead with a flier). I think even Wonder is a better card in his slot since it allows your Goyfs/RWMs to block fliers as well as lets you set up for a big surprise alpha strike.

I've been fiddling around with the idea of running a 1-of Stoneforge Mystic and 1-of Jitte. With Survival out, you can fetch Mystic, who fetches Jitte. Thoughts?

Iranon
02-26-2010, 04:50 AM
Hey...did you just go through the utility creatures of UW Tempo (The Deck Formerly Known as NoGoyf) and suggest them here? I can see through your dirty tricks *eyes narrow*

I hadn't even thought about that deck because it's built on entirely different principles and the arguments for and against these over Tarmogoyfs are totally different as well.
I do feel that Tarmogoyf is a little overused: He may be the best overall beater of the format, but I believe running the right cards > running the best cards.

And well... I rarely run Gensis in Survival decks any more, and wouldn't even consider it in lists with Squee but without Rofellos. 2-3 Grunts (1 Loaming Shaman in place of a Grunt if you value control and precision over power and cost-effectiveness) serve all your recycling needs . They don't provide additional card advantage to Squee with a Survival out, but they don't tie up mana that could be spent to do stuff and aren't awful without Survival.

A 1-of Grunt as graveyard hate seems aimless because without something to reset him he doesn't do a very good job in that role. 2-3 of them, however, do many things you want: they beat efficiently, they provide all the recycling you need and you can shut down most graveyard-dependent strategies without jumping through hoops. This is especially valuable if there are cards we want to run but couldn't make room for before.

Kuma
02-26-2010, 02:53 PM
Rafiq: I haven't been very impressed with Rafiq in my testing. He doesn't make a good blocker when you're behind and he doesn't help you overrun your opponent when they have less creatures, not to mention costing 4 mana. The only time I've found him to be good is when you already essentially have the game locked up (you have the ground tied up with blockers and you're swinging in overhead with a flier). I think even Wonder is a better card in his slot since it allows your Goyfs/RWMs to block fliers as well as lets you set up for a big surprise alpha strike.

I cut Rafiq and the third Pridemage from my list for two Meddling Mages, and I didn't miss Rafiq at my last weekly tournament. I went 4-1-2, beating Hulk Combo, CounterTop with Progenitus, White Weenie, and Planeswalker Control. My loss was to another Bant Survival deck, and my draws were with 43 land and Aggro Loam. I agree with all your sentiments about Rafiq except that he can be randomly awesome off the top of your deck in the mid and late game and win you games you'd otherwise lose. I actually wanted Wonder a couple of times, which was surprising, but Rafiq I did not miss.


I've been fiddling around with the idea of running a 1-of Stoneforge Mystic and 1-of Jitte. With Survival out, you can fetch Mystic, who fetches Jitte. Thoughts?

I ran three Jittes in my sideboard, but I didn't get any matchups where I could board them in, so I'm not sure if they and Stoneforge Mystic are worth it.

My only concern with Mystic is that you want Jitte against fast aggro decks, and that Survivaling for Mystic may be too slow to be relevant in these matchups. It's also worth noting that for about the same mana investment you could have Iona.

On an unrelated note, Meddling Mage was awesome, winning me games against Hulk combo, 43 land, and a game against Aggro Loam where I played Mage naming Maelstorm Pulse and got Iona on red. I played against Loam decks and combo for most of the night, so that may be coloring my perceptions, but he's almost always relevant.


I do feel that Tarmogoyf is a little overused: He may be the best overall beater of the format, but I believe running the right cards > running the best cards.

What are you talking about? The best cards are the right cards.

HAVE HEART
02-26-2010, 05:13 PM
Hey guys,

Got back from PT San Diego and thought I'd post up my tournament report for the Sunday Legacy side event (prizes were Mox Emerald and Mox Ruby).

Sadly, I made Day 2 of the PT, so I couldn't play in the Friday or Saturday Legacy events - I was really itching to give Bant Survival a go!

***Stuff***

I had a blast playing the deck though. Definitely don't want to play Wonder in the main anymore - I think I may try 1 Jotun Grunt because there were times I wish I could've gotten back some dead creatures from the yard.

I played against your friend on Saturday (ten Duals/ten Shocklands). He said that that was your first Pro Tour, and that you had only played in like one PTQ lifetime (and won it obviously). I like Legacy as much as the next guy, but being able to play on the Pro Tour is pretty sweet. Anyway, I was able to split with a friend of mine who ended up beating your friend in the Top 4 (avenging my loss). Have fun with the $1,800 in winnings.

Jak
02-26-2010, 05:23 PM
I do feel that Tarmogoyf is a little overused: He may be the best overall beater of the format, but I believe running the right cards > running the best cards.

As Kuma said, the best cards are the right cards. If you are trying to say Jotun Grunt is synergistic or helps tough matchups, I agree, but it is much weaker overall. It can't finish a game, is bad early, and is usually smaller than a Tarmogoyf (of course it is better in a Tarmogoyf standoff, but we usually win those anyway with exalted triggers).


And well... I rarely run Gensis in Survival decks any more, and wouldn't even consider it in lists with Squee but without Rofellos. 2-3 Grunts (1 Loaming Shaman in place of a Grunt if you value control and precision over power and cost-effectiveness) serve all your recycling needs . They don't provide additional card advantage to Squee with a Survival out, but they don't tie up mana that could be spent to do stuff and aren't awful without Survival.

I guess you value the recylcing ability a lot. I personally don't since the deck is redundant enough and it doesn't provide card advantage like Genesis.


A 1-of Grunt as graveyard hate seems aimless because without something to reset him he doesn't do a very good job in that role. 2-3 of them, however, do many things you want: they beat efficiently, they provide all the recycling you need and you can shut down most graveyard-dependent strategies without jumping through hoops. This is especially valuable if there are cards we want to run but couldn't make room for before.

What are you saying here? Are you saying Grunt is only good in multiples? Grunt is terrible in multiples since it's life gets cut in half for each one you have in play.

Anyway, my maindeck is already incredibly tight and there is better graveyard hate out there for my sideboard. It definitely isn't better than Goyf because playing without Survival is more important than playing with it.

Esper3k
02-26-2010, 08:37 PM
I played against your friend on Saturday (ten Duals/ten Shocklands). He said that that was your first Pro Tour, and that you had only played in like one PTQ lifetime (and won it obviously). I like Legacy as much as the next guy, but being able to play on the Pro Tour is pretty sweet. Anyway, I was able to split with a friend of mine who ended up beating your friend in the Top 4 (avenging my loss). Have fun with the $1,800 in winnings.

Thanks! Yeah when he mentioned that the only deck he had was a Rw Goblins deck he borrowed, I gave him my deck to play (since I couldn't play it that day anyways).

Yep, I was pretty lucky throughout the entire PT. Sadly, it seems that I'm fated to play Standard (I had about 4 Standard tournaments under my belt before the PT) instead of the format I love...

The prize money does help assuage my pain though :)

miR
02-27-2010, 02:08 PM
wich one is the best sb for bant survival? should we run blue elemental blast? with 3 tormods o relic its enought against dredge? ( meddling mage too ) sower of tempation needed?

Jak
02-27-2010, 02:57 PM
wich one is the best sb for bant survival? should we run blue elemental blast? with 3 tormods o relic its enought against dredge? ( meddling mage too ) sower of tempation needed?

It really depends. A good graveyard hate setup is 1-2 Faerie macabre and 2-4 Tormod's Crypt. Blue Elemental Blast should probably be Path to Exile since it can hit all of Zoo's guys, Goblin Piledriver, and has applications else where. Sower is good as a one of in the main or side, especially alongside Kira. It is a nice card to have against Aggro Loam, Reanimator, and the Survival mirrors.

To beat decks that overwhelm you like Merfolk, Goblins, and Elves, you really need some sort of removal/card advantage because you will never catch up if they get ahead. Umezawa's Jitte, Dueling Grounds, Propaganda, etc. Firespout has also been working for people in a small red splash for it. The rest can be filled with hate bears (Mage, Teeg, Canonist) or other one of creatures to get like Llawan (answers Merfolk and Progenitus).

Waikiki
02-28-2010, 12:53 AM
Hi guys, Live from madrid I currently made day 2 with a 7 to 2 in rounds. I saw alot of other survival players which was really nice!

Blitzbold
02-28-2010, 02:19 AM
Hi guys, Live from madrid I currently made day 2 with a 7 to 2 in rounds. I saw alot of other survival players which was really nice!

Go mate!

Blitzbold
02-28-2010, 06:48 AM
Double post 4tw.

Wizards published the undefeated decks from day 1 of GP: Madrid. Among them there also was Bant Survival:


Nicola Landoni
Grand Prix Madrid 2010

Main Deck

1 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
3 Windswept Heath
(19 lands)

1 Eternal Witness
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Loyal Retainers
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Rafiq of the Many
3 Rhox War Monk
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique
(18 creatures)

4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Swords to Plowshares
(23 other spells)

Sideboard
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Firespout
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Spell Pierce
1 Tormod's Crypt


Most of the cards seem fairly standatd, but there are also some details which catched my eye:

- Daze x3 instead of Spell Snare
- Ponder x4 (!)
- just 1 Pridemage and no Trygon Predator
- Volcanic MD + Firespouts SB

miR
02-28-2010, 07:33 AM
its really ponder necessary on this deck? i mean with brainstorm i think its enought!.. and he have only 1 pridemage.. in this format there are alot of airtifacts or enchantment like another survival, painters,counterbalance...affinity...chalice of the void...staxx.. ect.. i think with 1 its not enought

Kindly touch up your posting skills. This one is quite awful. - Bardo

Blitzbold
02-28-2010, 07:37 AM
I thought that most of us agreed that 2 Ponder is the right numer - if you choose to run any at all. I'd guess the way he built his deck he is nearly independent of SotF. With that much cantrips I don't geht why he is still playing 4 of those, though, as they seem to be more like a backup plan for him.

arebennian
02-28-2010, 08:17 AM
Double post 4tw.
Wizards published the undefeated decks from day 1 of GP: Madrid. Among them there also was Bant Survival:


Where?

Blitzbold
02-28-2010, 08:29 AM
Where?

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpmad10/day1undefeated

Esper3k
02-28-2010, 08:41 AM
Yeah, I just saw the undefeated lists.

Keep up the good work, guys!

arebennian
02-28-2010, 08:57 AM
Thanks for that.
I'll restrain myself and go talk about the decks that I'm excited about in the Madrid thread.

EDIT: Go WAIKIKI FTW!

Esper3k
02-28-2010, 09:26 AM
Nicola Landoni got a mini feature match against Tomoharu Saito in the coverage!

Waikiki
02-28-2010, 05:42 PM
Ok guys I was going for top 32 but I brainfarted my last match. Sleep is really needed which I didn´t gain. Too bad

I end up 50th with 12 4 1.

My list ran 3 ponders and 3 meddling mage maindeck.

I will leave for holland in a few hours.

Esper3k
02-28-2010, 10:12 PM
Ok guys I was going for top 32 but I brainfarted my last match. Sleep is really needed which I didn´t gain. Too bad

I end up 50th with 12 4 1.

My list ran 3 ponders and 3 meddling mage maindeck.

I will leave for holland in a few hours.

Congrats, dude. Playing all those rounds of MTG is a real marathon!

I look forward to reading your thoughts about the tournament.

Waikiki
03-01-2010, 06:25 AM
I did not take any notes but my matchups where:

Day 1:
2-0 merfolk
2-0 MBA
2-0 ? (I only saw Show and tell g2, g1 he mulled to 3 and dies without playing anything)
1-2 UG merfolk
0-2 Bant aggro with elspeth + jace
2-0 enchantress
2-0 enchantress
2-0 CB top (no pro)
2-0 ANT (ledless)

Day 2:
2-1 Faery stompy
2-0 Zoo
2-0 ANT
1-1 Goblins
1-2 Merfolk (with spellstutter)
2-0 GB Rock
2-0 CB Top
1-2 Belcher (This was my own stupiditiy + lack of sleep I should have won this easily)

I really enjoyed the GP. Altho it was very crowded it shows that legacy is really appreciated by the players so hopefully wizards will give the format more attention.

My list

// Lands
1 [P3] Plains (3)
2 [P3] Forest (2)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [A] Tropical Island
2 [A] Savannah
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [P3] Island (1)

// Creatures
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [PS] Meddling Mage
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers
1 [BOK] Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 [JU] Wonder

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [TO] Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [IN] Dueling Grounds

Things I am considdering: Getting the sprites back in / Getting 2 cliques in / redoing the sideboard. I did not miss daze nor spell snare the entire day.

gustha
03-01-2010, 07:52 AM
I'm testing more or less a list similar to yours. Why not trying a 2/1 split b/w meddling mages and gaddock teeg?

Gratz for the finish!

Blitzbold
03-01-2010, 08:19 AM
Teeg blocks your own Forces so for example combo can do a lot of things and then only needs to ged rid of Teeg + cast something a single FoW won't stop.

kkoie
03-02-2010, 11:10 AM
I modified my Bant Survival deck last week to the following list and have been testing it out. Before I was having issues with some decks, like merfolk and my countertop matchup was having problems. But with the addition of tops and counterbalance, my match-up against some decks have improved. I know that countertop tends to not interact well with survival, but so far I have not had many mana issues. And tops have been a boon to the deck I think. I also noticed that in control match-ups, leading with counterbalance instead of survival helps in that it either baits their countermagic, or if they don't have a counter, helps protect my survival when I cast it the following turn. Anyway here is the list I have been currently testing... thoughts??

4 Noble H.
2 Q. Pridemage
4 Tarmagoyf
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kira
1 Loyal Retainers
3 Rhox War-Monk
1 Squee
1 Trinket Mage
1 Iona

4 Counterbalance
4 Survival of the Fittest
2 S.D.Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
2 Forest
2 Island
1 Plains

Sideboard
2 Krosan Grip
3 Path to Exile (tempted to splash one volcanic and make these firespouts)
1 Engineered Explosives (I'm prob going to cut this)
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of P.
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Genesis
1 G.Teeg
1 L.C.Emperess
1 Meddling Mage
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Trigon Predator


I'm sure I will get verbally slapped for even trying tops and counterbalance. But it was suggested by a friend and I figured ok why not try it. And so far it hasn't been all that bad. Though there are some decks I'm still having problems with (mostly fast aggro).

Waikiki
03-02-2010, 05:43 PM
What exactly does CB top improve to your merfolk matchup ?

kkoie
03-03-2010, 07:02 AM
Assuming I can nullify their vials, it keeps their merfolk from resolving.

Waikiki
03-03-2010, 07:17 AM
Goodluck with that ;)

CB decks have a problem with merfolk so far I know and they chose to add firespout for them. Also merfolk is too fast to let you get CB top up and running and their casting cost difference is big.

I would not advise on running CB top.

godryk
03-03-2010, 07:43 AM
Well, after playing GP Madrid and dropping after my third defeat (I was very tired) I decided I'm dropping the Snare/Daze slot and start testing Waikiki's list and see what happens. After playing Snare for weeks, this last week I changed my mind and tested Daze, that finally got into my final decklist for the GP. Though they had some use all day long, they weren't quite spectacular. MM can be a nice inclusion, as it improves the MD combo matchup as well as being usefull against certain things. What I need to test is how to use it against things like Zoo and tribal decks.

Though I'll test that list, there's another card I have in mind, Sylvan Library, which is being used to a certain success in some Bant Aggro decks. I think it's a very strong card to draw while we get to drop Survival and comboes nicely with Rhox War Monk. For example, Lluis Restoy top 8'ed at Madrid with a Bant Aggro list with Library, after having with succes with it in the Catalan Legacy League. With 8 fetchlands, Ponder and Survival of the Fittest, I feel like testing it as a 2-of.

majikal
03-04-2010, 01:43 PM
Though I'll test that list, there's another card I have in mind, Sylvan Library, which is being used to a certain success in some Bant Aggro decks. I think it's a very strong card to draw while we get to drop Survival and comboes nicely with Rhox War Monk. For example, Lluis Restoy top 8'ed at Madrid with a Bant Aggro list with Library, after having with succes with it in the Catalan Legacy League. With 8 fetchlands, Ponder and Survival of the Fittest, I feel like testing it as a 2-of.
I've been thinking the same thing for a few weeks, but I always end up cutting it for something else. Obviously the weakest slots are the cantrips, but at the same time I'm hesitant to remove more blue cards from the deck to include another 2cmc enchantment. I'll test it next weekend for sure though.

BreathWeapon
03-05-2010, 09:51 AM
I can testify to how awesome Sylvan Library is in Bant Suvival, if you think of it as a Sensei's Divining Top that doesn't cost mana or "turn target Warmonk/Jitte into an Ophidian" it's busted.

Waikiki
03-06-2010, 09:08 AM
@All,

I feel pretty confidant with the deck as I run it right now except for 1/2 matchups, Dredge and Merfolk. I do not want to run any specific anti dredge hate since it will do almost nothing in other matchups.

What is the sideboard plan and playing style in these two matchups?

majikal
03-06-2010, 10:41 AM
@All,

I feel pretty confidant with the deck as I run it right now except for 1/2 matchups, Dredge and Merfolk. I do not want to run any specific anti dredge hate since it will do almost nothing in other matchups.

What is the sideboard plan and playing style in these two matchups?
I keep a few Faerie Macabre and Tormod's Crypt in my sideboard for Reanimator, and they just so happen to be good against Dredge, so I don't feel like they're wasted slots. For Merfolk, Path to Exile and Jitte seem to do the trick for me. I've pretty much given up on Propaganda/Dueling Grounds/Ghostly Prison as they never seem to do what I want them to, while Jitte is never disappointing.

Kuma
03-06-2010, 10:54 AM
I'm running a graveyard hate package of two Faerie Macabre and two Relic of Progenitus, and it's working pretty well against graveyard decks. If reanimator starts getting big (several people in my meta decided to run it last night) I might add another piece or two. Vs. Ichorid I side out Eternal Witness, Vendilion Clique, Trygon Predator, two Swords to Plowshares and one Qasali Pridemage for two Faerie Macabres, two Relics of Progenitus, and two Path to Exile. If I'm running Dueling Grounds/Ghostly Prison I'll board those in too.

For Merfolk I board in three Umezawa's Jitte/Dueling Grounds, two Path to Exile, and Kira, Great Glass Spinner for Eternal Witness, Meddling Mage, Vendilion Clique, Trygon Predator, Qasali Pridemage, and Noble Hierarch. If they aren't running Stifle I might board out another Noble Hierarch or two.

I'm not too experienced in the Merfolk matchup, so I might have that wrong. You could also board out Meddling Mages against Ichorid for extra Paths to Exile.

miR
03-06-2010, 11:08 AM
My sb is:

3 firespout ( I run 1 volcanic island on MD )---> againts ichorid, merfolks,goblins,faeries ect...
3 Meddling Mage ---> againts combo ect..
1 llawan cephalid empress ---> againts merfolks, sea stompy...
2 path to exile ---> aggro decks
1 relic of progenitus ---> dredge
1 tormod's cryps ---> dredge
2 jotun grunt
1 loaming shaman

I run alot hate graveyard on my sb because there are alot of dredge and with only 4 hate's its not enought. Also MM I sb against dredge too naming cabal and dread return

what do you think about?

Waikiki
03-06-2010, 11:59 AM
I found firespout ok but not super so I decided against it to get more basics in my maindeck.

Also I wonder how good spell pierce in the sideboard is. It gives more slots to use but weakens the combo matchup.

miR
03-06-2010, 02:28 PM
I think spell pierce is good if u only run 4 fows on MD if u run spell snare or daze I preffer this 3 slots for another card. vs combo u Have MM and fow ( me 3 daze more). Do you want to waste 3 slots?

Atog
03-06-2010, 04:33 PM
I'm running a graveyard hate package of two Faerie Macabre and two Relic of Progenitus, and it's working pretty well against graveyard decks. If reanimator starts getting big (several people in my meta decided to run it last night) I might add another piece or two. Vs. Ichorid I side out Eternal Witness, Vendilion Clique, Trygon Predator, two Swords to Plowshares and one Qasali Pridemage for two Faerie Macabres, two Relics of Progenitus, and two Path to Exile. If I'm running Dueling Grounds/Ghostly Prison I'll board those in too.

For Merfolk I board in three Umezawa's Jitte/Dueling Grounds, two Path to Exile, and Kira, Great Glass Spinner for Eternal Witness, Meddling Mage, Vendilion Clique, Trygon Predator, Qasali Pridemage, and Noble Hierarch. If they aren't running Stifle I might board out another Noble Hierarch or two.

I'm not too experienced in the Merfolk matchup, so I might have that wrong. You could also board out Meddling Mages against Ichorid for extra Paths to Exile.

Isn't that wrong to side Pridemages against dredge, just because you can get rid of bridges easily with that?

Why do want side in Kira against merfolks? Do you think they will side in mind harmenss? I think you could keep in Pridemage or Trygon to help fight against their vials + mind harmenss. I wouldn't also board out Meddling mages out for dredge, just because if you get one down and name "cabal therapy" and they will stop raping your hand and getting zombie tokens at same time. If you draw another, name "dread return" and then they have problems if they don't find/resolve bounce.

majikal
03-06-2010, 05:38 PM
Isn't that wrong to side [out] Pridemages against dredge, just because you can get rid of bridges easily with that?
This. Sacrificing Pridemage has won me so many games against Dredge it's not even funny.

Waikiki
03-07-2010, 04:10 AM
Aren't you supposed to have a target to sac pridemage to? Or you guys are still alive when survival is up ?

@Kira vs Merfolk, Merfolk often brings in submerge or something similar which is a pain in the ass.

Atog
03-07-2010, 04:32 AM
Aren't you supposed to have a target to sac pridemage to? Or you guys are still alive when survival is up ?

@Kira vs Merfolk, Merfolk often brings in submerge or something similar which is a pain in the ass.

They could bring in pithing needles against you, so you can hit them sometimes.

Didn't throught that submerge, yes that works well against it.

Remmidenny
03-07-2010, 05:09 AM
They could bring in pithing needles against you, so you can hit them sometimes.

Didn't throught that submerge, yes that works well against it.

And don't forget the Reejerey Tap-Ability, it puts him on top of the damage race very often.

Waikiki thanks for your list, it seems very strong and solid.
How good were the Dueling Grounds?
And can't you add 2 Vendilion Clique beside the 3 Meddling Mages because of their synergy?I missed Vendilion Clique several times on my last tourneys with the deck. I think you can cut 1 Ponder and 1 Qasali Pridemage from your list.

Waikiki
03-07-2010, 05:17 AM
I would cut 1 rhox war monk and 1 wonder for 2 cliques.

I haven't been able to use the grounds anywhere during the tourney.

Kuma
03-07-2010, 06:44 PM
Isn't that wrong to side Pridemages against dredge, just because you can get rid of bridges easily with that?

Not really, since you're not likely to have any targets for the ability. You could blow up your own Survival, but if you have Survival and an open mana, you could just find a Faerie Macabre and remove their Bridges From Below that way.


Why do want side in Kira against merfolks? Do you think they will side in mind harmenss?

The number one reason to have Kira against Merfolk is to get rid of their Kiras. It's also good against Merrow Reejery, Submerge, Mind Harness, Threads of Disloyalty, Umezawa's Jitte, and their Swords/Paths if they run the white splash.


I think you could keep in Pridemage or Trygon to help fight against their vials + mind harmenss.

You could, but I don't think that's right battle. I'd rather have the Paths to Exile and Umezawa's Jittes for their lords.


I wouldn't also board out Meddling mages out for dredge, just because if you get one down and name "cabal therapy" and they will stop raping your hand and getting zombie tokens at same time. If you draw another, name "dread return" and then they have problems if they don't find/resolve bounce.

Meddling Mage is certainly a relevant card against Ichorid, hell it's relevant against everything. But do you really think it's stronger than Dueling Grounds/Ghostly Prison? How would you board against Ichorid?

Atog
03-07-2010, 06:57 PM
Kuma:

Without knowing what list you are playing i use Waikiki's list for cite:

In:

SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [IN] Dueling Grounds

Out:

4x Rhox war monk
3x Qasali Pridemage
1x Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1x Ponder

Like that example. Yes, i would took out pridemages when i saw the list. But i would still leave meddling mages in. If you resolve dueling grounds and get meddling mage and naming their bounce you are in good shape.

godryk
03-07-2010, 07:03 PM
I'd rather side out Goyf instead of Monks. When I've managed to stop them from comboing, Rhox has served me well at stopping recursive Bloodghasts/Ichorids, as it kind of block twice.

Atog
03-07-2010, 07:19 PM
I'd rather side out Goyf instead of Monks. When I've managed to stop them from comboing, Rhox has served me well at stopping recursive Bloodghasts/Ichorids, as it kind of block twice.

If you manage to get rid of bridges, i prefer tarmogoyf over rhox war monk just because they don't necessary have enought guys to kill tarmogoyf, just chump it. War monk won't be never bigger than 3/4 without exalted so it will die easily to couple bloodghasts. Now you will say that bloodghast's will come back, yes they will if they have undiscovered paradise but if they don't, they still can kill rhox war monk and they have done their duty then.

Jokemon
03-08-2010, 04:11 AM
@Atog: Bloodghasts can't block

I played a tourney this saturday and faced 2 Ichorid (2-0 and 2-1 wins), the Monks where awesome. It stoped their Ichorids from attacking.

I sided like this:
-4 FoW
-3 Spell Snare
-1 Trygon

+2 Gaddock Teeg
+2 Tormod's
+2 EE
+2 Path

I reasoned that you dont have a whole lot to counter and its better to deal with what they have on board and in grave.

BreathWeapon
03-08-2010, 04:35 AM
For Dredge I find a MD Trinket Mage is a good investment, that way you can SB a Relic of Progenitus or Tormod's Crypt over some dedicated hate creature and having easy access to Engineered Explosives is nutty good.

Waikiki
03-08-2010, 04:43 AM
So what does that trinket mage get maindeck beside maybe a top? Its too slow imo.

Esper3k
03-08-2010, 09:35 AM
The UW NoGoyf deck has been seeing increased popularity in my meta recently as well as a variant of it that plays Black instead of the blue (it gives them Bob, Vindicate, as well as lets them play Hexmage/Depths combo since Wayfarer can fetch up DD).

I had success against it yesterday with splashing a Taiga and running Firespouts in the board, but I was wondering if anyone else has had issues with this deck before?

Against graveyard based decks, I'm currently running Faerie Macabre as a 1-of main and a Jotun Grunt main (recycles your graveyard and is bad graveyard hate). In the board, I have 2 Faerie Macabre, 1 Relic, 1 Crypt.

Against Aggro, I'm thinking of taking out the PtE because I'm running the 3x Firespouts in the board. I often find that I have a hard time figuring out what to take out when sideboarding and usually bring out the obvious useless graveyard hate, plus a Brainstorm or Ponder.

miR
03-08-2010, 02:24 PM
waikiki what's it's now your updated list?

jak same ask for you!

POST both pls :) thankyou

majikal
03-08-2010, 02:38 PM
Here's what I'm running at the moment -

4x Noble Hierarch
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Rhox War Monk
3x Qasali Pridemage
3x Meddling Mage
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
1x Loyal Retainers
1x Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria

2x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Survival of the Fittest

4x Misty Rainforest
4x Windswept Heath
4x Tropical Island
3x Savannah
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Island

SB:
3x Faerie Macabre
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Spell Pierce
3x Path to Exile
1x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1x Gilded Drake

kkoie
03-08-2010, 02:47 PM
What do you side gilded Drake in against that Sower of Temptation wouldn't be better?

majikal
03-08-2010, 02:58 PM
What do you side gilded Drake in against that Sower of Temptation wouldn't be better?
Reanimator. It's a quick answer to Iona that isn't white.

Jak
03-09-2010, 12:07 AM
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Meddling Mage
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Trygon Predator
1 Eternal Witness
1 Squee
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona

SB
1 Llawan
1 Kira
1 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Krosan Grip
2 Path to Exile
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Spell Pierce

I finally got my duals back so I am going to try to play this this weekend. I haven't been able to test Meddling Mage like I wanted to so it is in there for now. Usually the 3 Mages and 1 Ponder are four Daze. Everything else is pretty normal, may cut the plains for another Ponder. Kira may go in for the Ponder, but I haven't really felt her needed for the main. I do fine against Zoo without her game one.

SB has 3 Faerie Macabre since it is best versus Reanimator. I might switch out one for a Crypt. I really wish I could fit in 4 GY hate slots.

Props to Waikiki since this is basically his list with a few changes. I have always been in favor of more creatures and this one has that. It also forgoes the narrower disruption for the more powerful Meddling Mage. I was hesitant to add her because my meta is random shit, but I think even with her, those decks are easy to beat.

Also congrats on the top 50, Waikiki! I think I pointed it out in the Madrid coverage thread but never got to say "congrats".

Also, I am updating the primer. I've been busy and it has been taking a while but I hope to have it done soon, like Sunday or sometime after Sundar

Waikiki
03-09-2010, 02:17 AM
current list is testing out the faeries again. In a combo heavy meta id play the MM again.

// Lands
1 [P3] Plains (3)
2 [P3] Forest (2)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [A] Tropical Island
2 [A] Savannah
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [P3] Island (1)

// Creatures
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers
1 [BOK] Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
3 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [LRW] Ponder

crow_mw
03-09-2010, 07:44 AM
Thanks to both of you for sharing and for maintaining this thread.
@Jak - wouldn't cutting basic plains weaken your merfolk matchup, which already is somewhat problematic, and goblins as well? Numerous times I was sitting with game winning sword/swords but unable to cast it as my white land got wasted. I guess same goes for Aggro Loam. I would much rather cut the Tundra than baisic plains.

As for Kira - he has a great synergy with MM as you can name business spells, rather than swords / bounces. Same holds for Iona though it is much less relevant (maybe vs Zoo when you are often tempted to cast Iona on red).

Carabas
03-09-2010, 10:09 AM
I've been thinking about the reanimator matchup quite a bit, and while survivaling a gilded drake into the grave in response to exhume is cute, I've been wondering if some bounce effect of sorts might be nice. Would Curfew work? It stops progenitus and leviathan, and it's not white for iona to name.

kkoie
03-09-2010, 10:51 AM
Wouldn't Llawan also be an appropriate answer against prog. and leviathan?

I myself have a question for the more experianced survivalists. What to do about countertop game 1? I have been running a list similar to jak and waikiki's (similar but not exact) the last couple of weeks. And I was concerned about 2 pridemages and 1 trigon being enough to answer that matchup md. A friend suggested running 1 wickerbourough elder (sp?) Maindeck inplace of one pridemage, because he thought that as a 4 drop, it would have an easier time of getting around counterbalance. My only concern is that it's 4 mana plus 1 more to activate (so thats 5 mana to do it immediately, or he is 1 turn slow like trigon).

Thoughts? What is the general strategy game one against counter-top? Beyond hoping we have enough countermagic, what tactics would people suggest to getting rid of it when / if they have an active top and CB onboard? Or is runninger one w. elder a good idea?

Enigma
03-09-2010, 01:47 PM
There is a couple of aspects we need to evaluate in the CB/TOP MU.

Firstly, our ability to race the lock:

1. On the play, it means having 1st turn Hierarch, 2nd turn SotF.
2. Trying to go faster with a lot of creatures before CB/TOP is fully active (with mana open)

Secondly, the possibility to prevent it from being assembled:

1. By playing Spell snares (or dazes) or Meddling mages (or Clique)
2. Having Qasali already in play and protecting it.

And what I considere the least valuable option; destroy it while it is already assembled.

1. The only way to play Qasali is by making some tricks (baiting STP, BS or 3cc creatures), which is possible in the early game, but almost impossible later.
2. Playing different CC (3-4). Trygon helps there, but if the lock is already been built for a while, he will most likely have both 2 and 3CC. Elder is definitely the most likely to pass through.

The biggest issue about this last option is that we won't play more than 1 of these. Having only 1 answer in the deck is not really the best way to answer a problem. If we already have SofT up, then I'm pretty sure we can do tricks without Elder and try to play Trygon (which is BLUE and doesn't cost 5 (4+1)).

That's why I let the idea of playing the Elder. I prefere having a variety of options than relying on 1 that is only good in this scenario. So: 3 MM, 3 Snares, 2 QP, 1 Trygon is how I answer CB/TOP.

P-M

Julian23
03-09-2010, 02:06 PM
I've come to the conclusion that playing 3, maybe even 4 Pridemages is the way to go. I never felt content sacrificing explosivness for more Survival-targets, flexibility or a better lategame. That's why I will stick to running 3 Pridmages along with 2 Cliques and 3 Sprites. Actually Waikiki and me settled down for almost the exact same list last tournament with me moving Kira to the sideboard for the 19th land (Island). Three Ponder, 3 Pridemages, 2 Cliques and 3 Rhow War Monk gives the deck a clear direction while having one of best creatures in the format (Pridemage).

BreathWeapon
03-10-2010, 06:41 AM
If you're not running Tinket Mage MD then you should be running him SB, combined with Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus he's going to be more flexible than a dedicated "RFG target graveyard" creature if you SB in Engineered Explosives as well. IMO he's one of the reason I win vs Dredge, I can either wipe the graveyard and/or wipe the board of Zombies. IMO he's really great MD to, I love being able to grab Engineered Explosives or Relic of Progenitus at a moment's notice.

I really, really don't understand your guy's disruption tho', the MD should have Daze and Meddling Mage in it because you have to keep Counterbalance off the board if you want to win vs NO PRO, Spellstutter Sprite is slow and sucks ass vs. anything relevant in the first 2 turns.

Also, I'm sure this is blashphemous, but I'd recommend cutting Swords to Plowshares for Mother of Runes. It gives you the same protection vs creatures as Swords to Plowshares, it gives your creatures protection vs Sword/Path, it gives your Meddling Mages the option of naming Swords to Plowshares for a non-symmetrical advantage and your creatures gain evasion in the mid game.

I've been making love to this list personally,

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Meddling Mage
4 Mother of Runes

4 Rhox Warmonk
1 Harmonic Sliver
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm

1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

20 Lands (I prefer Horizon Canopies over Ponders)

SB
1x Tinket Mage
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Gilded Drake
4x Enlightened Tutor
1x Oblivion Ring
5x Open

As far as SBing, I think you guys have too many Survival of the Fittest specific targets and your not utilizing Enlightened Tutor enough, E.Tutor is definitely better than extra Crypts and Relics IMO.

godryk
03-10-2010, 10:46 AM
Well, I guess I have to joing the club and say that the Countertop matchup is not as good as I previoulsy thought. Not that we have a hard matchup, but an early CB lock screws us. If they go first turn Sensei, followed by second turn Counterbalance we are pretty much doomed, specially since most of us started cutting countermagic. I mean, it's a tricky matchup in which we can't afford neither us getting bad draws nor their good ones. I've started to feel kind of insecure in this machup, like many games are not under my control and feel too random. It may be due to many reasons.

At the same time, I've been testing Meddling Mage (a bit) and I'm not liking them so far, they're not good against aggro decks and some others with no key spells to cut. I may give it a new try, but right now I felt like testing a new toy: Aether Vial. Yeah! Well, I know this isn't a very common choice around here, but you all know it's being played in Spain. I've always rejected playing it, I thought it kind of clashed with Noble Hierarch and was a very bad topdeck. But after giving it a try, it's giving me nice sensations.

It certainly has a lot of strengths. It's always awesome to open with Vial+Survival, as you can ideally go for:

T1: Vial
T2: Survival, EOT Hierarch if in hand.
T3: EOT, Survival for Squee, then Iona, then Tarmogoyf, Vial Tarmogoyf in.
T4: Survival for Retainers, go for uncounterable Iona.

Whether you have this fast hand or not, Vial+Survival is always a winning hand, as you can use loads of mana to perform Survival tricks, play spells and still be able to drop creatures. Not worrying about Daze is also powerful. I'm really liking it. I like having a must-counter turn one play against blue decks. Even topdecked is not that bad, as Survival has a nice curve and we can alwas drop it and then Hierarch, Goyf, Monk. Vial also makes Spellstutter more easy to play, as you can leave Vial open for it. And it's always the combat trick thing.

Of course it has its weak points, but I have been wanting more turn 1 plays, tired of drawing hands full of lands and 2-mana spells, so I just replaced Mages with Vial. I really feel like giving it a try in a shop tournament or something.

The list I'm trying, for reference:

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Rhox War Monk
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

3 Aether Vial
18 Lands

Alternatively:
- 3 Spellstutter Sprite
+1 Rhox War Monk
+1 Vendilion Clique/Qasali Pridemage
+1 Kira, Great Glass Spinner

EDIT:
I forgot the Spore Frog + Genesis trick is also there.

Kuma
03-10-2010, 02:01 PM
2. Playing different CC (3-4). Trygon helps there, but if the lock is already been built for a while, he will most likely have both 2 and 3CC. Elder is definitely the most likely to pass through.

The biggest issue about this last option is that we won't play more than 1 of these. Having only 1 answer in the deck is not really the best way to answer a problem. If we already have SofT up, then I'm pretty sure we can do tricks without Elder and try to play Trygon (which is BLUE and doesn't cost 5 (4+1)).

That's why I let the idea of playing the Elder. I prefere having a variety of options than relying on 1 that is only good in this scenario. So: 3 MM, 3 Snares, 2 QP, 1 Trygon is how I answer CB/TOP.

Why not run Natural Order/Progenitus for the CounterTop match? It brings the number of must-counter cards to eight, and there's no way they're going to Counterbalance it. Unlike Wickerbough Elder, it doesn't suck in most other matchups.

Now that I think about it, I can't remember the last time Trygon Predator did anything for me. If you manage to stick Survival before Counterbalance, you win anyway. Unless Stax, Enchantress, and Chalice Aggro make a comeback, I think we can stop running Trygon Predator.


I've come to the conclusion that playing 3, maybe even 4 Pridemages is the way to go.

I ran three Pridemages for a while and loved it. Upping the Pridemage count might be another way to handle the CounterTop match. Having 7-8 Exalted guys and 3-4 ways to kill Counterbalance seems good. Even in other matches, Pridemage is a damn fine beater.


If you're not running Tinket Mage MD then you should be running him SB, combined with Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus he's going to be more flexible than a dedicated "RFG target graveyard" creature if you SB in Engineered Explosives as well. IMO he's one of the reason I win vs Dredge, I can either wipe the graveyard and/or wipe the board of Zombies. IMO he's really great MD to, I love being able to grab Engineered Explosives or Relic of Progenitus at a moment's notice.

This is an interesting idea. It's a turn slower than Faerie Macabre, but much stronger. I'll keep it under consideration.


Also, I'm sure this is blashphemous, but I'd recommend cutting Swords to Plowshares for Mother of Runes. It gives you the same protection vs creatures as Swords to Plowshares

Not quite. Mother of Runes can't stop non-combat creatures and it doesn't let you pull tricks with Goblins' and Merfolk's lords. It also doesn't let you zap Ichorids and Bloodghasts. It also doesn't do anything the turn you play it, unlike Swords to Plowshares.

Don't get me wrong, it's an interesting idea, and potentially quite powerful, but don't overstate your case.


it gives your creatures protection vs Sword/Path, it gives your Meddling Mages the option of naming Swords to Plowshares for a non-symmetrical advantage and your creatures gain evasion in the mid game.

It gives your creatures protection if you're willing to forego unblockability. I haven't needed evasion in the midgame very often. And if I do, there's always Iona, Vendilion Clique, Wonder, etc.

I like the way you think, though. Naming Swords to Plowshares with Meddling Mage sounds awesome.

majikal
03-10-2010, 05:18 PM
I like the way you think, though. Naming Swords to Plowshares with Meddling Mage sounds awesome.
I'd honestly rather just play Kira, Great Glass-Spinner and still be able to play my own Swords. If they want to waste half of their StPs to get rid of one creature then I'm more than okay with that.

Maxe
03-10-2010, 05:40 PM
Ill run 2 Spelstutter Sprites for this scenario too. They waste first removal spell and the second get countered by a nice flash faerie.


I now testet Firesproud for some days and i dont know if i should low it or hate it. Its nice when u play against faeies, gobos, elves and some random stuff. But when in the first game each round i got some hands with useless red mana stoping casting my cc curve.

BreathWeapon
03-10-2010, 07:42 PM
The problem with Kira, Great Glass spinner is that I'd rather Survival of the Fittest for something that's going to win the game and not something that's going to stop a Swords to Plowshares, you play Mother of Runes and Meddling Mage on your way to resolving a Survival of the Fittest and not the other way around. Once Survival of the Fittest resolves, you don't need "cool things" to tutor for, you tutor for Retainer/Iona or just overwhelm the opponent with threats. Cards that are conditional to Survival of the Fittest suck ass, you don't want it to do anything more than be a card advantage engine and a "combo-finisher" in the deck.

Yeah, obviously Mother of Runes doesn't have the removal capability of Swords to Plowshares, but Mother of Runes does 1 for 1 the opponent's threats and "turns off" their 8 Sword/Path in their MD/SB while giving you the ability to swing into the red zone. I think with the return of Burn and the popularity of the 8 STP effects, mom is one of the single best one drops in the format.

majikal
03-10-2010, 10:20 PM
The problem with Kira, Great Glass spinner is that I'd rather Survival of the Fittest for something that's going to win the game and not something that's going to stop a Swords to Plowshares, you play Mother of Runes and Meddling Mage on your way to resolving a Survival of the Fittest and not the other way around. Once Survival of the Fittest resolves, you don't need "cool things" to tutor for, you tutor for Retainer/Iona or just overwhelm the opponent with threats. Cards that are conditional to Survival of the Fittest suck ass, you don't want it to do anything more than be a card advantage engine and a "combo-finisher" in the deck.

Yeah, obviously Mother of Runes doesn't have the removal capability of Swords to Plowshares, but Mother of Runes does 1 for 1 the opponent's threats and "turns off" their 8 Sword/Path in their MD/SB while giving you the ability to swing into the red zone. I think with the return of Burn and the popularity of the 8 STP effects, mom is one of the single best one drops in the format.
What fantasy land do you live in where blanking your opponent's removal doesn't win you the game? If I resolve Kira against decks with removal, I am probably going to win. Mother of Runes doesn't "1-for-1" your opponent's threats unless you can block them in the first place. And if you can block them in the first place, you have Goyf, which is probably as big or bigger than what is swinging at you. It's also a lousy topdeck and doesn't pose any kind of threat by itself. Kira, on the other hand, is a relevant threat in and of herself, with evasion to boot, and "turns on" as soon as she comes into play.

jeanbathez
03-11-2010, 03:10 AM
@godryk : Vial is a very interesting idea, it sounds good.
A few qustions : do you think 3 Vial is enough, normally i'am used to play 4 , if i play vial then i want 4, because i want to have it as early as possible. I know vial is sometimes a bad topdeck...

A nice bonus : against merfolk, one of the decks i had the most problems, a turn 1 vial, turn 2 survival or something like that deny them to play standstill....

I might be a bad idea, but what do you think of stoneforge mystic as a 1 of and a jitte ?

BreathWeapon
03-11-2010, 05:22 AM
What fantasy land do you live in where blanking your opponent's removal doesn't win you the game? If I resolve Kira against decks with removal, I am probably going to win. Mother of Runes doesn't "1-for-1" your opponent's threats unless you can block them in the first place. And if you can block them in the first place, you have Goyf, which is probably as big or bigger than what is swinging at you. It's also a lousy topdeck and doesn't pose any kind of threat by itself. Kira, on the other hand, is a relevant threat in and of herself, with evasion to boot, and "turns on" as soon as she comes into play.

The same fantasy land where resolving Survival of the Fittest results in a win no matter what you tutor for, the fact of the matter is Kira isn't the greatest threat or the greatest top deck by herself and I'd rather just tutor for Stoneforge Mystic and Umezawa's Jitte or Iona and Loyal Retainers for the same investment in mana and win the game instead of pretending my board state is going to be dominating and my Survival of the Fittest is going to resolve while my opponent is playing Solitaire.

Honestly, what do you want out of a 1 drop? Of course Mother of Runes has draw backs, but it's an extremely strong card for the mana investment. Any time your 1 drop is getting removed immediately or forcing 2 for 1 trades later, you should be overjoyed. I've run mom in three different archetypes now, and in each archetype she's exerted a tremendous influence on the board thanks to the 8 Sword/Paths in MD/SBs and her chump blocking abilities.

Why don't you try play testing the card or the list? There's a big difference between having a 1 drop that does what Kira does, and more, and counting on Survival of the Fittest resolving to find Kira in the first place - the cards don't play out the same way at all.

kkoie
03-11-2010, 07:26 AM
I have played mother of runes in the past. And between her or Kira, I'd rather have Kira. Granted it doesn't make my creature unblockable, but it shuts down or hinders a significant number of spells. And there are some matchups where mother of ruins does nothing, but Kira does. Goblins for example, while on the decline, still see's signifcant play. And if their deck is running any number of mogg fanatics (which a lot still are) mother of ruins is next to useless (useless because as soon as mother is tapped to protect a creature, it's dead thanks to mogg or gem palm incinerator). Where as kira is a significant hinderance. Add to this sad fact that any deck running jitte is going to cause problems. You will then be stuck in defensive mode.

Not that I'm suggesting mother of ruins is a bad card. Far from it. I just think that in this deck, Kira is better. You would need to run multiples of Mother of Ruins to be seriously effective (at least 1 xtra to protect the other mother), where as you need but 1 kira.

godryk
03-11-2010, 07:55 AM
I would play Kira against Ugr Tempo-ish decks rampant here all day long. Seriously, with Fire/Ice, Bolt, Sower, Shackles and the like, it's nice to shut their tricks down. It's cool against Vedalken Shackles and Jitte (which are usually just a portion of their removal). Though Qasali can circunvent those, with Kira you get a 2/2 flyer with shroud by the same cost. Against some decks it is not that good, but it's hardly ever a dead card. I'm not sure, it's being played by different players to a certain degree of success.

Right know I'm not playing it but it's not a card to dismiss, and it has won me a lot of games. You can't never count on Iona, specially against Relic of Progenitus. Many times you have to feed the opponent's Relic with Iona (sometimes with Squee) or Loyal Retainers has been somehow dealt with. In those situation Kira is nice protection card.


EDIT: I haven't seen this...


@godryk : Vial is a very interesting idea, it sounds good.
A few qustions : do you think 3 Vial is enough, normally i'am used to play 4 , if i play vial then i want 4, because i want to have it as early as possible. I know vial is sometimes a bad topdeck...

A nice bonus : against merfolk, one of the decks i had the most problems, a turn 1 vial, turn 2 survival or something like that deny them to play standstill....

I might be a bad idea, but what do you think of stoneforge mystic as a 1 of and a jitte ?

Vial was widely played here for some months and still some people does. A friend of mine did day 2 at GP Madrid with a Aether Vial list, see report and list (http://www.prismagic.es/). I just replaced 3 Mages with 3 Vials and I'm happy so far. I know some people playing Vial as a 3-of in different decks, and it's been a common topic of discusion in the forums for years. Some Merfolk players think that 4 Vial is too much, they may be wrong, but I understand that a deck not so aggresive as, for instance, Goblins, and with access to countermagic can afford to not open with Vial. A second or third turn Vial has seemed good too, as we can still do stuff in the first 1-2 turns like Ponder/Brainstorm/Stutter/Swords.

BreathWeapon
03-11-2010, 09:51 AM
Well, it's not Mother of Runes and Kira, Great Glass Spinner are mutually exclusive, I replaced Swords to Plowshares with Mother of Runes and didn't include Kira, Great Glass Spinner at all. There's no reason you couldn't run both and just use Mother of Runes to block or evade once Kira, Great Glass Spinner is on board. Obviously, the stock of both cards is rising in the 8 STP/Path metagames where Bant and other /w aggro control and control decks are throwing spot removal around left, right and center.

kkoie
03-11-2010, 11:20 AM
I feel apprehensive though about taking all creature removal out of the deck though, don't you? Their are some creatures that you just don't want your opponent to have, let alone give your dudes protection from.

majikal
03-11-2010, 12:11 PM
Well, it's not Mother of Runes and Kira, Great Glass Spinner are mutually exclusive, I replaced Swords to Plowshares with Mother of Runes and didn't include Kira, Great Glass Spinner at all. There's no reason you couldn't run both and just use Mother of Runes to block or evade once Kira, Great Glass Spinner is on board. Obviously, the stock of both cards is rising in the 8 STP/Path metagames where Bant and other /w aggro control and control decks are throwing spot removal around left, right and center.
I'm assuming nobody plays Merfolk in your meta if you feel safe taking out all of your removal.

Esper3k
03-12-2010, 06:05 PM
I've liked Kira myself.

We have a lot of decks around here that use Maze of Ith and Kira is great at getting Iona past that nasty land!

majikal
03-14-2010, 01:11 PM
I've been testing 1x Karakas in the MD, and so far it has proven extremely useful in dealing with opposing Ionas while also playing some really cool tricks with Vendilion Clique. Has anyone else considered trying this in place of the third Savannah?

Waikiki
03-14-2010, 01:15 PM
As long as there is no way to tutor for it a single sower is stronger vs Iona imo.

majikal
03-14-2010, 01:19 PM
As long as there is no way to tutor for it a single sower is stronger vs Iona imo.
The problem I've had with Sower is that often I'm dead before I can resolve it reliably against Reanimator on game 1. Games 2 and 3 it's not an issue because I bring in Faerie Macabre and Gilded Drake, but game 1 being able to mulligan into Karakas or even just have the possibility to cantrip into it or topdeck it improves the matchup greatly, since I otherwise count it as an autoloss. The way I see it, I've got plenty of green sources, I'm never sad to see a Karakas, and it doesn't waste any slots in the deck, so having a miser's copy of it is nothing but positive.

Edit: I run 19 lands though. If you've got 18 I probably wouldn't play it.

Waikiki
03-14-2010, 01:39 PM
So what exactly does karakas boucne against reanimator beside iona? We lose anyways if they can start reanimating.

majikal
03-14-2010, 02:26 PM
So what exactly does karakas boucne against reanimator beside iona? We lose anyways if they can start reanimating.
You don't need to bounce anything else. Iona is always going to be the first target they get against a Bant deck, because naming White just shuts you down. The idea is that you just set yourself up as normal, start running out threats, and try to start a counter war over Entomb, so that once they run themselves out of cards trying to go off you can drop Karakas after they inevitably reanimate Iona. After that you've got a few turns to build your position, and you can just race their threats with Rhox War Monk (in the case of Inkwell, E. Archangel) or just remove them with StP (Sphinx). You might take a few hits in the process until you can find Karakas, or you might not even find it and die, but that's no different than a normal game one anyway, so just the possibility of being able to hold them off until you can amass a solid board position is enough to warrant running one.

Also, if you are able to get Karakas online and take care of their Iona, you can start casting V. Clique against them every single turn to ensure they never get another chance to get back in the game. I also run a second one in my sideboard to improve the chances of this happening in game 2 (and 3 if it goes that long).

Here's my land base for reference:

4x Misty Rainforest
4x Windswept Heath
4x Tropical Island
2x Savannah
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Island
1x Karakas

And then I side out the Plains for another one.

There is literally no drawback, and you even get the bonus effect of being able to Wasteland an opponent's Karakas if it's keeping you from reanimating your own Iona.

Waikiki
03-14-2010, 02:35 PM
I still find your plan rather weak if ur trying to get a one off karakas online. I'd simply try to stall their reanimation madness and get survival online and win with iona on black.

majikal
03-14-2010, 02:42 PM
I still find your plan rather weak if ur trying to get a one off karakas online. I'd simply try to stall their reanimation madness and get survival online and win with iona on black.
That seems great in theory, but in the many test matches I've played it never ever plays out that way. Game one I'm almost never able to hold off their reanimating past turn 3, and then they get Iona online naming white. There's just too much disruption to punch through so you have to scoop it up and go to game 2. The Karakas plan might not be a definite answer but it makes game one of the match slightly less unfavorable at no extra cost, which is all you need to steal the win. After that you can side in all the hate you need and it's not a terrible matchup at all.

Waikiki
03-14-2010, 02:53 PM
whats your list + sb?

Also I sitll dont see ur plan work vs inkwell.

majikal
03-14-2010, 03:08 PM
whats your list + sb?
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Rhox War Monk
3x Qasali Pridemage
3x Meddling Mage
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Loyal Retainers
1x Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Windswept Heath
4x Tropical Island
2x Savannah
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Island
1x Karakas

SB:
3x Faerie Macabre
3x Spell Pierce
2x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1x Gilded Drake <-- I play this over Sower because it's easier to play around Daze.
1x Karakas
3x Path to Exile


Also I sitll dont see ur plan work vs inkwell.
If they get Inkwell first, you have a chance to just race them with an exalted Rhox War Monk. Most Reanimator players will go get Iona first, since all of the answers and most of the business spells in this deck are white.

Waikiki
03-14-2010, 03:12 PM
I run spellstutter sprite instead of MM atm which seem ok vs reanimator. Your board of 3 Macabre ,spell pierce and gilded drake seem strong in fighting reanimator. I think karakas could aswell be a better slot.

majikal
03-14-2010, 03:14 PM
I run spellstutter sprite instead of MM atm which seem ok vs reanimator. Your board of 3 Macabre ,spell pierce and gilded drake seem strong in fighting reanimator. I think karakas could aswell be a better slot.
The one in the sideboard I'm still on the fence about, but the one maindeck keeps me from just auto-scooping. If I replaced it with anything I would take it and 1 Path to Exile and replace them with 2x Dueling Grounds to (maybe) improve my Merfolk matchup.

Jak
03-14-2010, 04:04 PM
I don't think Karakas is terrible, but as a one of with no way to get it, it's just random. At least have a Knight of the Reliquary or something so you have a chance with Survival. I think having a Gilded Drake or Sower is a much better plan. And if they do go for Inkwell or anything else, Llawan can answer it.