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majikal
03-14-2010, 04:41 PM
I don't think Karakas is terrible, but as a one of with no way to get it, it's just random. At least have a Knight of the Reliquary or something so you have a chance with Survival.
Knight of the Reliquary is white, so you won't be able to cast it under Iona to get Karakas. I'd rather just hope I lucksack into a free out in an otherwise unwinnable game 1 than spend actual maindeck slots trying to improve it. Like I said, after game 1 the matchup tilts in our favor if we sideboard properly, but even having a chance of winning game 1 through Iona lock, even if it is because of a lucky topdeck/opening hand, is enough to make a huge difference in the long run.


I think having a Gilded Drake or Sower is a much better plan. And if they do go for Inkwell or anything else, Llawan can answer it.
This is currently part of my sideboard plan. Although if I start seeing more Reanimator than Zoo/Lands/Decks packing lots of removal I'll probably swap Gilded Drake into the MD in place of Kira. But as it stands now the meta I play in is infested with removal.

majikal
03-16-2010, 07:45 AM
I'm not sure how I feel about the list that got 10th at the SCG open on Sunday:

Artifacts
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Creatures
1 Loyal Retainers
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Sower Of Temptation
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Trygon Predator

Enchantments
4 Counterbalance
4 Survival Of The Fittest

Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force Of Will
4 Swords To Plowshares

Legendary Creatures
1 Iona, Shield Of Emeria
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

Basic Lands
1 Forest
2 Island

Lands
4 Flooded Grove
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra

Legendary Lands
1 Karakas

Sideboard:
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Meddling Mage
2 Krosan Grip
3 Path To Exile
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress

Are we seeing the results of an underdeveloped metagame or a highly specialized one? There are some really strange decklists all around in the top 16.

The thing that stands out as most odd to me is the inclusion of filterlands instead of more fetches. Could this be simply in order to maximize the amount of green mana available or just inability to acquire fetches?

menace13
03-16-2010, 12:44 PM
I'm not sure how I feel about the list that got 10th at the SCG open on Sunday:

The thing that stands out as most odd to me is the inclusion of filterlands instead of more fetches. Could this be simply in order to maximize the amount of green mana available or just inability to acquire fetches?

The filters help to get Counterbalance online after leading with a basic Forest/Island.

MULocke
03-16-2010, 12:52 PM
The filters help to get Counterbalance online after leading with a basic Forest/Island.

Since when does leading with a basic island make it hard to cast Counterbalance next turn?

I feel like the 4 filters might be somewhat of a crutch. Tapping out for Counterbalance is usually a bad idea unless you need to get it down against something like storm combo. The decks that you want it fast against don't attack your mana so that problem shouldn't exist. If you have a top, it's usually better to wait anyway so you can have the combo active once it resolves (so they don't untap and resolve something like a pridemage). Against decks like Canadian Thresh, you'll want the basic forest untapped anyway to play through Daze. I agree more fetches seems better than these lands. 1 or 2 might be justified, but 4 seems just awful.

Kuma
03-16-2010, 12:54 PM
There's something we need to address.

Bant Survival was a wrecking ball back when the format was CounterTop and anti-CounterTop. Our deck could be built to have a good matchup against CounterTop and to destroy the slower anti-CounterTop decks like Loam and Landstill.

Now, the format is shifting towards faster decks like Zoo, Merfolk, ANT, and Reanimator. I think we're under or around 50/50 against all of those decks.

What can be done about this? Bant Survival is still a powerful contender, but I think we need to start finding ways to better deal with these decks if we're going to stay on top.

I think we need to lose some of the cards that are good in our good matchups for some maindeck answers to fast aggro. Cards like Eternal Witness, Vendilion Clique, and Trygon Predator need to be cut, or at least moved to the sideboard. I've been trying Natural Order in the maindeck, and I might start trying Umezawa's Jitte/Stoneforge Mystic too. If we combine something like that with a strong anti-combo sideboard, will it solve our problems in this metagame?

Enigma
03-16-2010, 02:56 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if it was only a mistype from SCG as it is most likely to be Flooded Strand. It is not like if it was their first mistake in writting down lists.

On the CB/Top subject: I already win against Combo, Landstill and Land. Why would I want CB top in this deck? My hardest MU is Merfolk and it is what I'm trying to improve. I tried to go with the Firespout in SB and lost 2 games this weekend to merfolks, mostly because I have been manascrewed a lot. I'm going back to UGW. I also switched -1 Witness, +1 Finks now with 2 RWM/2 Finks and I have to say I liked it a lot.

P-M

menace13
03-16-2010, 03:49 PM
Since when does leading with a basic island make it hard to cast Counterbalance next turn?



Depending on the hand (could be 3 lander; Island, Sav/Forest+filter) also Savannah or tundra filter into uu/ug/gg. Rare? yes, but happens, better than fetches?...no

MULocke
03-16-2010, 04:56 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if it was only a mistype from SCG as it is most likely to be Flooded Strand. It is not like if it was their first mistake in writting down lists.

On the CB/Top subject: I already win against Combo, Landstill and Land. Why would I want CB top in this deck? My hardest MU is Merfolk and it is what I'm trying to improve. I tried to go with the Firespout in SB and lost 2 games this weekend to merfolks, mostly because I have been manascrewed a lot. I'm going back to UGW. I also switched -1 Witness, +1 Finks now with 2 RWM/2 Finks and I have to say I liked it a lot.

P-M

I agree, I didn't consider that possibility of a typo. Flooded Strand is what I think it should be, anyway.

CB/Top is still quite powerful. It might not be the best against Merfolk, but it gives the deck another good threat at the two-drop slot. I wouldn't be too happy about the combo matchup without a lot of hate bears/spell pierces/etc in the board, as they can play through 1 or maybe 2 pieces of hate fairly easily. Also, CB gives the deck another dimension against Zoo. Zoo usually wrecks old GP: Chicago Cb lists, but this list can use it much better; you don't need it to win, but you do win when you get it going. CB is also good in the mirror and against reanimator, giving you more game-breaking spells and an unbeatable lock in those matchups, respectively.

Edit: @menace: In your situation, any blue producing land casts CB regardless of the savannah/plains/forest. If you have an island, a filter does the same thing as a blue land or fetch and the savannah is unnecessary.

Jak
03-16-2010, 07:41 PM
It's easier to just not play CB. The deck gets clunky as hell and plays completely different, ie can't play either role (control or aggro) effectively.

Now, on to what Kuma said. I think what you are saying is normal. This deck has no bad matchups like old RGBSA, but it does't completely wreck a lot of things either. If you are seeing a lot of Merfolk, Zoo, Goblins, etc, change the deck! Taking out Eternal Witness, 2 Cliques, etc to make room for a couple of Stoneforge and Jittes and maybe a SOFI is a great plan in an aggressive meta. I think I change my list every time I play it, mostly just fiddling and nothing major but sometimes a necessary improvement for what I expect to face.

I think combo is fine. I am definitely keeping 4 Spell Pierce SB and I might start playing with a Canonist or something. I always pack a Llawan since it is awesome versus reanimator and Gilded Drake/Sower/even Man o War to answer Iona. Faerie Macabres too.

Innovation is the only way this deck survives.

majikal
03-16-2010, 10:15 PM
Between my main and side, I've pretty much taken care of the problems that Reanimator, Zoo, and ANT give me. However, no matter what I try and what I change about the deck, Merfolk just seems to run me into the ground. The only chance I have is to stick an early Goyf (and hope they don't play any of their own) and find Jitte ASAP, which doesn't happen nearly as often as I'd like. I used to be able to count on some of the other decks taking out Merfolk before Top8, but lately the meta's been shifting back to more blue decks to counteract the surge in Reanimator, and the fish have been breaking into the final rounds.

miR
03-18-2010, 09:16 AM
I think I will cut meddling mage to side and I will put on MD instead of MM +2 jittes + 1 clique ( so 3 cliques ). And I think we have a hard matchup against Dredge.. and merfolk i'ts ok for me, with jittes, swords, iona, path and cephalid sb I don't have so much problems... yeah maybie lord of atlantis owns us but we have swords.. and If we take out vial with trygon or qsali it's ok. With 3 relic on sb its not ok.. i prefer loaming shaman and take 4 or 5 card hate for dredge... coz it's difficult for me to win that matchup

Esper3k
03-18-2010, 12:45 PM
I've been playing 1x Taiga and 3x Firespout in the side. With the amount of fetches we have, you can oftentimes sandbag it to pull out your Taiga right when you need to cast Firespout. I've been pretty happy with it so far.

@Enigma: Just curious - you said you haven't had problems against Lands. Can you give any advice on that matchup? I've had many problems whenever I've played against it.

majikal
03-18-2010, 12:50 PM
@Enigma: Just curious - you said you haven't had problems against Lands. Can you give any advice on that matchup? I've had many problems whenever I've played against it.
What exactly gives you problems? Between Meddling Mage, Kira, Great Glass-Spinner, and Iona, Shield of Emeria you should be able to shut down their antics and just beat them to death with multiple guys. And that's just game one. After that you can bring in the grave hate and just go to town.

Julian23
03-18-2010, 01:20 PM
Iona+Kira outright wins against Lands. Even Karakas doesn't help here.

PanderAlexander
03-18-2010, 04:54 PM
I finally got my loyal retainers, can't wait to play this deck.

I came from Pro Bant and I was going to test between volcanic/firespout and dueling grounds. Have you guys tested dueling grounds? It seems most people go the firespout route so I'm guessing that's more successful.

Kuma
03-18-2010, 06:51 PM
Yesterday, I decided to try adding Counterbalance for my local Legacy tournament. I was dissatisfied with the Zoo, Merfolk, ANT, and Reanimator matchups, and CounterTop improves three out of the four. I went 5-1-1, beating three Zoo decks, Legacy Jund (it plays a lot like Zoo), and a Bw homebrew. I lost to Goblins in the playoffs and ID'd with CounterTop with Progenitus. CounterTop was largely responsible for my victory over two of the three Zoo decks, the Jund deck, and the Bw homebrew. All the things people say about CounterTop: It's clunky, it's too mana intensive with Survival, it ruins your ability to go aggro, none of that was true for me last night. I'm not 100% sold on it yet, but it has an A+ so far. I'll keep trying it and see if anything changes.

Here's the list I ran:

4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Meddling Mage
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

SB:

3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Path to Exile
1 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Gilded Drake
4 Spell Pierce
1 Gaddock Teeg

In hindsight, one of those Jittes should have been a Stoneforge Mystic, and Kira maybe should have been another Faerie Macabre, a Tormod's Crypt, or a Relic of Progenitus. Meddling Mage might not be necessary with CounterTop. I might trade it out for another Qasali Pridemage or something.

Esper3k
03-19-2010, 04:29 PM
What exactly gives you problems? Between Meddling Mage, Kira, Great Glass-Spinner, and Iona, Shield of Emeria you should be able to shut down their antics and just beat them to death with multiple guys. And that's just game one. After that you can bring in the grave hate and just go to town.

I don't run MM in my list, considering it as a 1-of.

Problems I have is when they have Tabernacle plus Wasteland recursion or Ports out locking my mana down/out.

Having them hit multiple Mazes when I have Iona out really sucked too.

Julian23
03-19-2010, 04:36 PM
Early Wastelands + Ports + maybe Tabernacle is what gives a lot of power to this deck. They however apply close to zero pleasure which gives you a lot of time to set up Iona. Wasteland sucks but you should be running at least 4 basic lands (I run 5 with 19 lands) and Noble Hierarch. Don't wanna lie to you here. If you open 2-3 lands where 2 get wasted and the 3rd is a Plains that does nothing your in a really bad posititon. But that's just worst case scenario. In evalueating the matchup you should also take into consideration Force of Will which will often force 43-Land into topdeck modus.

I've never lost a match to lands by now but one for a totally undeserved game loss I received.

K1LO
03-19-2010, 06:31 PM
Ive played BantSur last saturday in a tournament with 24 attendants (5 swiss-rounds) ending in 3rd place. Played against Zoo (2:0), Solidarity (2:1), Enchantress (2:0), Zoo (2:0) and in the final round i badly lost to a LED-less dredge-deck (0:2), not the player! I would have won game1 if Id have played Wonder over Trygon Predator as I could have raced him in the air and would probably have won game2 if Id have played at least one Faerie Macabre in my sideboard. Instead Ive tried Wheel of Sun and Moon which only shined against Solidarity (LOL!), but definately was too slow against dredge, even the LED-less version. My changes in the future will look like -1 Predator, +1 Wonder/Venser Shaper Savant in the maindeck and add more/faster graveyard-hate in the sideboard -1 Wheel, -1 Umezawas Jitte (although Id really like to keep the 2nd one), + 2 Macabre/maybe +1 Ravenous Trap. The Enlightened Tutor has been really solid against Zoo, beeing Survival #5, Jitte #2(-3) and so was Jtun Grunt, but he might become Qasali #3. Did some of you guys ever miss Wonder sometimes, just like I do?

Maindeck:

3 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
2 Savannah
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
1 Trygon Predator
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Jtun Grunt
1 Vendilion Clique

Sideboard:

3 Spell Pierce
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Meddling Mage
2 Krosan Grip
2 Path to Exile
2 Umezawas Jitte
1 Enlightened Tutor


Greetz, K1LO

Slayer
03-20-2010, 05:53 AM
@K1LO, I have been using Bant Survival for a few months now (The best Legacy deck I'v used) & Wonder has been great, sometimes even playing it out ( When things have gone realy bad) to get the kill with 2 or 3 Exalted men on the board.

K1LO
03-20-2010, 07:37 AM
@K1LO, I have been using Bant Survival for a few months now (The best Legacy deck I'v used) & Wonder has been great, sometimes even playing it out ( When things have gone realy bad) to get the kill with 2 or 3 Exalted men on the board.
I used to play it too before Retainers/Iona became popular, but with that change Wonder feeled to be pretty much redundant. But, as Im siding out Retainers/Iona more and more often, because it is either too slow or too fragile against some matchups, Im now at the point of evaluating Wonder new. I should mention that Im noting every game in a small book and therefore exactly know that it would have won me more games (against Dredge, Merfolk, Aggro Loam, ...) or at least finished the game much faster, without any sort of overkill. From my experience with the deck, most opponents are getting better and better prepared to fight Iona and also therefore Im definately giving Wonder a chance again, as Id rather side it out than playing without it anymore. On the other hand it doesnt do much without Survival online, but the last time Trygon Predator has been usefull in any kind, exept as Force-fodder^^, is about 4 months ago.


Greetz, K1LO

spider900
03-20-2010, 08:58 AM
Hey guys, I need some help. I'm going to participate on a tourney the next week. I do not have any ideas what the meta looks like, and I have the option to play either Bant Survival or Canadian Thresh. Can some of those, who have more experience with the deck, give me some pros or cons why I should or should not pick up Bant Survival for this tourney? Also, what cards would you put in the SB? For reference, my list:

4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Rhox War Monk
3 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Spell Snare
3 Survival of the Fittest
2 Savannah
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Forest
2 Ponder
1 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Trygon Predator
1 Wonder
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sensei's Divining Top

Thanks. By the way the tourney is a monthly event with 70 participants each time, so I expect to face good and highly developed decks.

kkoie
03-22-2010, 07:44 AM
3 Survival of the Fittest
1 Wonder


My initial thoughts, why only 3 survival? Specially when you have wonder maindeck. Their doesn't seem to be any other method to get wonder in the yard. I would up the count to 4 by cutting something. My first thought is to cut wonder in favor of a 4th survival. As for sideboard I've seen a lot of people run sideboards similar to this:

3 Path to Exile (also I have seen a couple of jitte's)
2 Krosan Grip (3 maindeck art/ench hate so 2 is ok)
2 Gattock Teeg
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Llanawan, Cephalid Emperess
5 Additional slots, depending on what is or isn't in the main they can be: Kira, Great Glassspinner for Zoo, Genesis for slow decks like Landstill, Sower of Temptation is nice, more yard hate in the form of Tormod's Crypt, I have seen some lists run Engineered Explosives, and various additional combo hate like Spell Pierce, Meddling Mage, or Cannonists.

CUB3X
03-24-2010, 10:32 AM
What do you guys think of the new Eldrazi spell replacing Iona? It serves the same purpose of dodging removal, however, if you attack once with it, you pretty much win the game.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103210&stc=1&d=1269384672

It would be a little harder to do, you'd have to have Retainers on board before you search so you can place the shuffle trigger on the stack and then respond by reanimating him.

Not sure if its worth it but probably worth testing.

HBspulse
03-24-2010, 10:33 AM
Ah some good news, we have a possible new devastating Loyal Retainers target : Emrakul, the Aeons Torn!

Hoorah! And setting up the combo can't be intervened by with creature removal as with Iona.

- Make sure you have survival in play, 4 mana, loyal retainers and Emrakul in hand
- Cast loyal retainers, pass priority, (resolves)
- Discard Emrakul to survival, shuffle trigger goes on the stack, do not pass priority
- Sack loyal retainers, pass priority
- Get Emrakul into play
- Watch your opponent crumble in fear to the meanest fattie in fattie history

EDIT : Damnit CUB3X! :) One minute earlier

Waikiki
03-24-2010, 10:35 AM
Ok next. This is totally danger of cool things.

Julian23
03-24-2010, 11:22 AM
Iona also can't be stopped by creature removal. Just for the sake of rules clarification..
I storngly believe Iona is still a much better combo as she just wants you to have a single creature in hand. Bonus fact: she's aeons better against combo.

Windux
03-24-2010, 11:33 AM
Against Combo: You play a 15/15 fattie and get an extra turn (so you will have at least 3 mana becasue you allready played Retainer), you attack them for 15 (or 16 if you played a Exalted-critter this turn) and destroy all his permanents.
Mhhh...I think that's pretty much game.
Postboard you just play a Teeg or Meddling Mage in your extraturn and they have to go off without permanents and with 1 hatebear on the board.

Com'on Iona can't do it better, because Iona can be bounced/removed.

Jak
03-24-2010, 11:38 AM
Against Combo: You play a 15/15 fattie and get an extra turn (so you will have at least 3 mana becasue you allready played Retainer), you attack them for 15 (or 16 if you played a Exalted-critter this turn) and destroy all his permanents.
Mhhh...I think that's pretty much game.
Postboard you just play a Teeg or Meddling Mage in your extraturn and they have to go off without permanents and with 1 hatebear on the board.

Com'on Iona can't do it better, because Iona can be bounced/removed.

You aren't casting it so you won't get an extra turn. You also have to jump through more hoops to get it into play.

GrandInquistorTheRealDeal
03-24-2010, 11:46 AM
Clearly weaker against combo, but this seems stronger against the rest of the field. Does the Retainer-in-reponse-to-shuffle trick really work?

CUB3X
03-24-2010, 11:58 AM
Yes it does because unlike its Darksteel Colossus counter-part it isn't a replacement effect. And yes Iona is better against combo. Thats why Iona gets moved to sideboard or you can SB in Emrakul against non combo.

K1LO
03-24-2010, 12:21 PM
Ok next. This is totally danger of cool things.
Quoted for truth! Iona is strictly superior in Survival-based decks, as it comes down much faster and almost does the same job if not a better one. Also, not to forget that Iona can be hardcast (happened to me twice^^) with 18-19 lands + 4 Hierarch and that no creature-removal can be used to stop Retainers bringing Iona, at least if youre doing it right^^.


Greetz, K1LO

conboy31
03-24-2010, 12:39 PM
and that no creature-removal can be used to stop Retainers bringing Iona, at least if youre doing it right^^.


Creature removal does not stop bringing in Emrakul either. That said, his home is not in this style of bant survival.

K1LO
03-24-2010, 12:55 PM
Creature removal does not stop bringing in Emrakul either. That said, his home is not in this style of bant survival.
Sorry, youre right^^! Actually, the "discard a creature" is part of Survivals activation-cost and therefore creature-removal doesnt stop Retainers from bringing Emakrul. At least Im feeling awkward for this, I should have known it better.


Greetz, K1LO

Kuma
03-24-2010, 01:12 PM
It's also worth noting that it costs one more mana and one more creature card or turn to get Emrakul into play. While he's probably better against most of the field, I don't think he's so much better that it's worth the extra costs.

godryk
03-24-2010, 04:50 PM
While Emrakul is a better creature than Iona against non-combo decks, I don't like some facts:

- Needs one more mana/creature/turn: Very relevant as you often win games thanks to fast Iona, specially against Zoo or combo. That extra turn may be lethal.
- Needs four mana. You can cast Iona with 3 mana. Sometimes you don't draw 4 lands in the first 4-5 turns. Sometimes you face mean opponents playing Stifle and/or Wasteland.
- You can't discard it to get Loyal Retainers: VERY relevant when low on mana and/or need to drop Iona fast.
- It's harder to play around Qasali Pridemage, Maelstrom Pulse and other cards. Very often I win games against these cards by discarding a random creature to Squee (optional), to Iona, to Loyal Retainers in response to their attempt to destroy your Survival. I mean, you don't need Survival in play to win.

Julian23
03-24-2010, 04:59 PM
Really guys, this guy is just weaker than Iona, believe it or not. Whenever a new set comes out people will be looking for potential cards to break but once the dust settles only very few will actually see play. I will play Iona instead of this guy ANY day. Iona is SOO much faster, mostly due to the fact that she doesnt require another creature in your hand.

majikal
03-24-2010, 08:01 PM
I will, however, play the FUCK out of that guy in my EDH Survival deck!

Esper3k
03-25-2010, 12:37 AM
Yeah Emrakul does sound pretty sexy, but I think Iona is better overall just because she's easier/faster to get out.

One nice thing about Emrakul though is that it shuffles your Retainers back into your library, so you can reuse it!

Waikiki
03-25-2010, 05:37 AM
Guys, as of now im actually doubting the power of the iona/retainer package. Since imo the problem matchups are right now game 1: Merfolk and perhaps something else. Iona isn't that effective at all.

Did anybody else got the feeling that the games he won could just as simply be won by just outrunning them with survival advantage?

If not people please convince me im terribly wrong. I will try a new list without iona and see how it goes.

jeanbathez
03-25-2010, 05:48 AM
@ Waikiki : Atm i'am testing 1 Stoneforge Mystic,1 Jitte and 1 Sword of Fire and Ice in the main for merfolk...
But the iona package is still in at the moment...

godryk
03-25-2010, 06:13 AM
I don't know, there are many tight games won on Iona. For example, Iona makes Zoo much easier for me. The package has proven itself in tournament for several months against many decks. It just increases the raw power of the deck and locks the game againt many opponents. Against decks with no access to countermagic is just awesome. It's just 2 slots that I find very useful against many decks but that won't be that useful to improve your Merfolk matchup IMO.

Waikiki
03-25-2010, 07:11 AM
I feel iona does not make the zoo matchup. Its way too slow imo.

@jeanbathez, how on earth did u squeeze that in without lowering the blue count to a dangerous number?

jeanbathez
03-25-2010, 07:34 AM
@jeanbathez, how on earth did u squeeze that in without lowering the blue count to a dangerous number?

Thats the problem, you hit the point :-)
I`am not sure if it works...

If you are interested i can pm you the decklist, because i want to test it this weekend on a tournament, because a lot of people are also reading in this forum..

Eddy Wally
03-25-2010, 07:40 AM
I've always been an aggro-loam player, but because I grew bored with that deck I made a bant deck recently. I can't find loyal retainers anywhere, so I threw in the NO-PRO combo instead. Did anybody here test that set up? In your opinion, can it match the awesome supertech of the Iona-combo?

kkoie
03-25-2010, 09:02 AM
I tried the Natural Order combo both maindeck and in the side along with the Iona combo for a bit, just to see what it was like. In the end I took it out. As a friend put it succinctly, "it's a win-more." I hardly ever needed it.

As for finding loyal retainers, check ebay, they are going for $110-140 each. I myself uber lucked out when I bought one in November for $40.

When you compare the two together, I think the iona-combo is a lot stronger in that it serves as a lock. Where as progenitus is a fast 2 turn clock. The only problem with progenitus in survival is that it's no faster than NO-Countertop. I think if I were to play NO combo, now that I tried it in survival, I'd rather play it in a countertop build.

Waikiki
03-25-2010, 09:05 AM
Thats the problem, you hit the point :-)
I`am not sure if it works...

If you are interested i can pm you the decklist, because i want to test it this weekend on a tournament, an a lot of people are also reading in this forum..

Sure! id like to take a look.

Valdez
03-25-2010, 09:09 AM
I've always been an aggro-loam player, but because I grew bored with that deck I made a bant deck recently. I can't find loyal retainers anywhere, so I threw in the NO-PRO combo instead. Did anybody here test that set up? In your opinion, can it match the awesome supertech of the Iona-combo?
That would be an entirely different deck, search for No Bant.

As for finding loyal retainers, check ebay, they are going for $110-140 each. I myself uber lucked out when I bought one in November for $40.
I bought them in November for ~16e incl. shipping to Europe.

Kuma
03-25-2010, 04:35 PM
Guys, as of now im actually doubting the power of the iona/retainer package. Since imo the problem matchups are right now game 1: Merfolk and perhaps something else. Iona isn't that effective at all.

Did anybody else got the feeling that the games he won could just as simply be won by just outrunning them with survival advantage?

If not people please convince me im terribly wrong. I will try a new list without iona and see how it goes.

I feel iona does not make the zoo matchup. Its way too slow imo.

You're terribly wrong.

Iona may not do much for the Merfolk matchup, but it can still win you games. I've beaten Merfolk by playing a turn three Iona and then Survivaling for a Qasali Pridemage next turn to take out their Aether Vial. Postboard, I've won by resolving Iona and then playing a Llawan, Cephalid Empress. It may not be the strongest strategy against Merfolk, but it sure as hell works. Short of starting with our anti-Merfolk package in the main, game one against Merfolk is going to be unfavorable. After boarding in 1 Stoneforge Mystic, 2 Umezawa's Jitte, 2 Path to Exile, 1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress, and sometimes Kira, Great Glass Spinner, I've found that games two and three are pretty favorable for us.

Sure, there are games I probably could have won through Survival advantage, but there are games I couldn't have won without Iona as well. It's totally worth two slots in the deck to be able to drop a nigh-unkillable 7/7 flying on turn three or four. I don't think there are two other cards we could add that would equal or surpass the raw power Loyal Retainers and Iona give us. If you've got an idea, I'm open to hearing it.

Sometimes Iona is too slow for the Zoo matchup. Sometimes you play her on white, or red if you're low on life, and gum up the ground with Tarmogoyfs and Rhox war monks so you can win the game. Running CounterTop is the best thing you can do against Zoo, and I haven't lost to Zoo in a tournament since I added CounterTop to my list. CounterTop also plays up Iona by letting you name red or green while protecting her from Path to Exile.

tl;dr --- Don't be a slave to Iona; Sometimes there are better plans. However, she'll win you games against every deck in the format.


I've always been an aggro-loam player, but because I grew bored with that deck I made a bant deck recently. I can't find loyal retainers anywhere, so I threw in the NO-PRO combo instead. Did anybody here test that set up? In your opinion, can it match the awesome supertech of the Iona-combo?

I didn't like it when I ran it, but the other Bant Survival player in my area swears by it. Running it does give you an extra 3-4 "I win" cards, and it will greatly help your CounterTop match, while giving you a small boost against aggro. I'm not running it because about 2/3 of the time I drew it, I didn't need it due to having a fantastic board position or an active Survival. NoPro is better in a slower CounterTop shell that can't go aggro as well as Bant Survival. It's not a bad choice, and it will certainly win you games, but I think we can do better.

Esper3k
03-25-2010, 10:06 PM
I played a CB/Top build of this last week and did alright with it (went 3-0 in the swiss, then lost in the Top 4 to Lands).

Honestly, I didn't see CB that much, so it was hard for me to say how good it was - I did really like the Top though.

I do also want to try out a NO/Progenitus version of the deck (I really liked that build with NO Elf Survival). While it may seem like win-more, NO really is another way to just go "Oops, I win", especially if you can't get Survival online or your opponent has dealt with it.

Remmidenny
03-26-2010, 01:01 PM
I proudly present a new Retainer target:

Emrakul, the Aeons Torn 15

Legendary Creature - Eldrazi
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn can't be countered.
When you cast Emrakul, take an extra turn after this one.
Flying, protection from colored spells, annihilator 6
When Emrakul is put into a graveyard from anywhere, its owner shuffles his or her graveyard into his or her library.
15/15
Illus. Mark Tedin
#4/248
[source: Prerelease Promo]

As you can see it's last ability is not a replacement effect so we can respond to it with sacrificing Retainer for greater good.
I think Iona isn't necessary anymore.

Jak
03-26-2010, 01:05 PM
I proudly present a new Retainer target:

Emrakul, the Aeons Torn 15

Legendary Creature - Eldrazi
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn can't be countered.
When you cast Emrakul, take an extra turn after this one.
Flying, protection from colored spells, annihilator 6
When Emrakul is put into a graveyard from anywhere, its owner shuffles his or her graveyard into his or her library.
15/15
Illus. Mark Tedin
#4/248
[source: Prerelease Promo]

As you can see last ability is not a replacement effect so we can respond to it with sacrificing Retainer for greater good.
I think Iona isn't necessary anymore.

It's been talked about. I think the consensus is that it's worse. You need two creatures and an extra G to put this into play (or wait another turn to untap and get Squee back or something). This is turns slower than Iona and getting down something fast is what matters. I mad though becasue in the last few sets, I have been looking for something that can wipe a board of Merfolk/Goblins/Elves/Cats and this is too slow to do it.

CorpT
03-28-2010, 02:54 PM
FYI: Bant Survival put two people in the top 4 of a 43 person Legacy event in Illinois yesterday with a total record of 11-1-1 plus 2 IDs (I went 4-0-2, my teammate went 4-1-1, we each won our Quarter, I won my semis, and we each scooped to our other teammate for points, he in the Semis, myself in the Finals - 3/4 of the top 4 was our team). We played 73/75 decks (just a few lands different) against a pretty diverse, but solid meta beating: Zoo, Merfolk, CounterTop, PaintersServant, Canadian Threshx2, Team Americax2 and a few others. We walked out with 25 Judge Foil Fetches between the 3 of us.

I definitely think that Iona/Retainers is worth it. For two card slots you get a way completely steal games. Turn 3 against Zoo was basically game over.

Kira was also amazing for us all day. Especially when combined with Sower. We did not play Vial, but were playing Sprite and it was very powerful. I would definitely play Sprite over Daze.

Waikiki
03-28-2010, 03:30 PM
glad you share the same thoughts about spellstutter could you share lists and matchups ?

spider900
03-28-2010, 04:30 PM
Today was the time for me to play my first tournament with Bant Survival.

Round 1: GR Random Deck

He doesn't seem to play all that often and has to read Ponder. I make short work of him with turn 4 or 5 Iona on Green Game 1, Game 2 I fly over his big beater with Goyfs.

1-0, 2-0.

Round 2: Mono R Goblins

Game 1 it looks good for me, but he gets a Siege-Gang Commander into play which I cannot handle. Turn 4 Iona on red wins Game 2 instantly, the same is true for Game 3 (turn 5). I boarded extra Paths, and Kira. I think I also sided in the 4th RWM.

2-0, 4-1.

Round 3: NO Bant

In both Games he has the nuts, while my draw are on average. In both Games it's everything about who has a Goyf on the table and he wins the fight both times, although I brought in PtE + Kira. Meh. I didn't saw a NO or Progenitus, so I didn't board Llawan.

2-1, 4-3.

Round 4: NLS

Game 1 he has enough time to build a perfect hand up, here or there I can counter something. The turn before he would be dead, he cast Silence. I look at my hand consisting of Squee, Spellstutter Sprite and Forest. I counter Silence with Sprite. He has to go the IGG route (because he's on 1 life), but I have Force + a blue card in my grave. I bring in 3 MM and 2 Teeg.
Game 2 I open a slow hand but with Teeg. I decide to keep and play Teeg. He tries Chain of Vapor, but I have Spellstutter Sprite. He tries Echoing Truth and it resolves, but it seems he did something wrong in is calculations. He has to pass his turn, so I can simply replay Teeg. He doesn't find an answer and I win.

3-1, 6-3.

Round 5: NO Bant

Game 1 we both have a bunch of Goyfs and StoPs. Like round 7 or so he goes for NO and I have no counter. I board in PtE, Llawan and Kira. I win Game 2 and 3 because I am able to bounce Progenitus. Llawan impressed me really; and I didn't even face Merfolk!

4-1, 8-4.

Round 6: GWBu Rock

Game 1 he has some Sinkhole + Wastelands, but I never fall under 2 lands while I had first turn Noble Hierarch. He has some Tombstalkers and Goyf on his side, but I have Survival online and therefore the better CA machine. I win.
Game 2 I mulligan to 4, keeping a hand of land and top, and 2 irrelevant cards. He goes Land, Petal, Hymn To Tourach, picking (as you can guess) my land and top. I draw land and Hierarch, have Path for his Goyf and a Goyf in my hand (really good draw). But he goes Wasteland for my land and StoP for my Hierarch.
Game 3 I can keep my 7 and have Land+Hierarch first turn. I get survival online and I win, because of Iona on white.

5-1, 10-5. 6th out of 70 people.

The list I played:

4 Windswept Heath
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tropical Island
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords To Plowshares
4 Force Of Will
3 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Survival Of The Fittest
3 Rhox War Monk
3 Spell Snare
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Ponder
2 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Iona, Shield Of Emeria
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Wonder
1 Rafiq Of The Many

3 Meddling Mage
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Path To Exile
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Rhox War Monk

I want to share my impressions on the deck I got today:

1) Spellstutter Sprite have been absolutely amazing for me the whole day. Countering Silence, StoP, Brainstorms and others is really cool. While your opponent loses a Spell, you cast a creature. It's a very elegant way of dealing with Spells. 3 is the right numer, I do not want to have less, but 4 seems to be too much imo.

2) Spell Snare did also do a very good job for me, countering mostly Goyfs. 3 feels like it's the right number.

3) Llawan has been awesome!

4) My SB was crappy, but I didn't have any cards for it, so i had to take what I could get before the tourney started. Maybe now, I would go like:

3 Path To Exile
3 Spell Pierce
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Meddling Mage
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Genesis
1 Rhox War Monk

I'd like to have Genesis in the board, because I faced NO Bant two times and Goyf was countered a lot, so Genesis with recurring Goyfs or RWM would be cool. I does only take a single SB slot, so I'll give it a try. I'd also like to squeeze 2 K. Grip in the SB, but I didn't board them all day long, so maybe it isn't even necessary.

5) Concerning the split between (Survival/Top) of (3/1) instead of (4/0): I liked it. Really. Every time i drew the Top, I didn't wish it would have been a Survival. I'll keep this.

I hope I could help a little by sharing my first experience with the deck. Thanks Waikiki and Jak for inventing and testing the deck intesively, it's really awesome.

Cheers!

CorpT
03-28-2010, 05:28 PM
glad you share the same thoughts about spellstutter could you share lists and matchups ?

4 Force of Will
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Path to Exile
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Vendillion Clique
3 Rhox War Monk
1 Trygon Predator
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch

4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra

Sideboard:
1 Faerie Macabre
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
2 Spell Pierce

Round 1: BW Not so good deck
Playing Bob, Hymn, Thoughtseize, Tombstalker - Wasn't a great deck, but not terrible.
Game 1: He Bobs into a Tombstalker and it was over pretty quick after that.
Game 2: He Hymns me 3 times, and Sinkholes me. But I get a Survival active with a Squee getting Nobles. Once I stabilize, Monks start getting in there.

Round 2: Very good CounterTop player
Game 1: Crushes me with Turn 1 Top, Turn 2 Balance and me with nothing but 2 drops in hand that couldn't get through.
Game 2: He first turn Needles me and I Force it. I play a Survival and start the Iona engine. He is getting aggressive with Goyfs. I get a Rafiq in play to end the game that turn.
Game 3: He gets a first turn Needle again, but I don't have Survival, so I let it go. I proceed to play Goyfs and then Sower his Monk. Game is over quickly.

Round 3: Canadian Thresh
Game 1: He goes nuts with Nimble, Nimble, Goyf. I get Wastelanded and Stifled and die quickly.
Game 2: Land a Noble and Survival. Get Iona and finish him quickly.
Game 3: More Nobles, but no Survival. Go aggro with Monks and Goyfs. Mine outclass his and I force him to 2:1 himself to kill them. Not much of a fight.

Round 4: Zoo
Game 1: Third turn Iona. Game.
Game 2: I feel a little bad for him. He gets me to 2, but can't draw a burn spell. I get Survival, but he always has Pridemage, so I don't get much use out of them. Able to deal with all of his creatures and start swinging with Sprite in hand to stop burn. 25-2 and I come back on the back of the Aggro package.

Round 5-6: ID

Quarters:
Team America:
Game 1: Path his few creatures and get aggressive with Goyfs and Monks. Rafiq seals the deal.
Game 2: Sower his Tombstalker with a Kira in play, but tapped out. He Snuff Outs my Sower and Stifles the Counter Trigger. Great play I couldn't stop. I lose shortly thereafter.
Game 3: Wasn't much of a chance for him. I get Survival and start laying a lot of creatures. A few mistakes on my part here, but the deck beats him. Highlight of this match was letting him Ponder, then pitching Retainers for Squee for Sprite to counter the Brainstorm. Afterwards he said it was a pretty big counter. I had Kira in play, so there weren't a lot of things one card could do, but 3 could do some damage.

Semis:
Canadian Thresh I had already beaten.
Game 1: Beat him with aggro creatures and convince him to concede so we can go home. We had already split prize and were just playing for points. I just wanted to win so I could scoop to my teammate for points. He's really close to Qing on rating. He got me very, very low, but Mongeese do not like Monks. Once those come out, he has a lot of trouble.

Overall, I loved the deck. It's absolutely amazing. Rafiq and Sprite were all-stars several times. My teammate playing the same deck was able to swing for a lethal 8 with a flashed in Sprite and Rafiq. The flexibility is amazing and the ability to go very aggressive surprises a lot of people.

Kuma
04-01-2010, 05:44 PM
There is not nearly enough discussion on the merits of running CounterTop in Bant Survival. This is all that's been said about it in 53 pages:


Sensei's Divining Top: Trying to run this does two things that I don't like: it lowers your blue count if you cut other cantrips or it lowers your creature count. It just ends up being a mana sink when the deck doesn't need one. I am not against running it in the SB alongside Counterbalance because that could be an effective board plan, but in the main deck, it is poor.

Counterbalance: Similar decks have run Counterbalance but it just makes Survival weaker. This deck is a Survival deck first and foremost and trying to do too much weakens that strategy to where you are running two weaker engines. As I said before, it could be decent in the SB to stop Loam, Burn, Combo, or Control etc.


I modified my Bant Survival deck last week to the following list and have been testing it out. Before I was having issues with some decks, like merfolk and my countertop matchup was having problems. But with the addition of tops and counterbalance, my match-up against some decks have improved. I know that countertop tends to not interact well with survival, but so far I have not had many mana issues. And tops have been a boon to the deck I think. I also noticed that in control match-ups, leading with counterbalance instead of survival helps in that it either baits their countermagic, or if they don't have a counter, helps protect my survival when I cast it the following turn.
I'm sure I will get verbally slapped for even trying tops and counterbalance.


I would not advise on running CB top.


It's easier to just not play CB. The deck gets clunky as hell and plays completely different, ie can't play either role (control or aggro) effectively.


Yesterday, I decided to try adding Counterbalance for my local Legacy tournament. I was dissatisfied with the Zoo, Merfolk, ANT, and Reanimator matchups, and CounterTop improves three out of the four... All the things people say about CounterTop: It's clunky, it's too mana intensive with Survival, it ruins your ability to go aggro, none of that was true for me last night. I'm not 100% sold on it yet, but it has an A+ so far. I'll keep trying it and see if anything changes.

CounterTop is too good to be dismissed so flippantly. I'll wager that most of the people who think it's a bad idea haven't tried it. In three tournaments since I added it, it has been winning me games left and right. I've missed the seven cards I cut for it exactly twice. There have been at least a half dozen games CounterTop has won by itself. It helps all of our tough matches except for Merfolk. Why aren't more people running this?

But Kuma, running Sensei's Divining Top hurts your blue count for Force of Will.

Sensei's Divining Top can be used to find blue cards. Counterbalance is blue. Survival can find blue cards. Despite a lower than usual blue count for a Legacy deck, I've never had problems finding blue cards before or after adding CounterTop.

Running CounterTop hurts the creature count, making it harder to get an active Survival.

This is true, but Sensei's Divining Top can mitigate this by finding creatures. In three tournaments, I've had problems finding a creature for Survival in one game. CounterTop has earned me back that one game many times over.

You can't expect to activate Survival every turn and effectively use CounterTop.

So?

Running CounterTop is about having options. Having either an active Survival or active CounterTop should win you the game. If you draw both, you can use whichever is worse in the matchup as countermagic/removal bait. Obviously you're not going to mess up a beautiful top three to Survival for a creature unless you have to. And if you need the creature, why is being able to get it a bad thing?

The way I see it you can run seven to eight enchantments that win you the game, or you can run four. Last time I checked, having multiple game changing cards in your hand isn't a bad thing.

Running CounterTop hurts your ability to play both the control and aggro roles effectively.

Are you serious? Running CounterTop hurts your ability to be a control deck?

CounterTop has hurt my ability to go aggro inasmuch as Meddling Mage, Vendilion Clique, Eternal Witness, and Trygon Predator are aggro creatures. That is to say, not much.

This deck is a Survival deck first and foremost.

No, this deck is a deck designed to win games first and foremost. Either CounterTop helps it do this or it doesn't. I care about wins and losses, not "definitions."

It's easier not to run Counterbalance.

It would also be easier to cut Survivals and play Bant Aggro.

Running CounterTop makes the deck harder to play, but it makes the deck better too. Winning games is what's important. If you want an easy to play deck, go build Belcher.

Waikiki
04-01-2010, 06:01 PM
In my opinion the deck is just stronger as a pure survival deck. I ask what does this make better then a normal counter top deck? It just seems like a worse counter top deck and a worse survival deck combined. Atm I only have trouble vs merfolk and dredge. Two decks counter balance has no place in fixing.

Philipp2293
04-01-2010, 06:05 PM
@Kuma: What list would you suggest for trying countertop?

Kuma
04-01-2010, 06:46 PM
In my opinion the deck is just stronger as a pure survival deck. I ask what does this make better then a normal counter top deck?

--- The ability to generate real card advantage with Survival of the Fittest

--- Having the potential to Demonic Tutor every turn for :g:

--- You can shuffle your deck for :g:

--- Iona, Shield of Emeria

--- More creatures

--- Silver bullets in the sideboard

--- Seven "I win" cards instead of four


It just seems like a worse counter top deck and a worse survival deck combined.

I know what it looks like, and for that very reason I resisted trying it. However, it works much better in practice.


Atm I only have trouble vs merfolk and dredge. Two decks counter balance has no place in fixing.

You have a great matchup against ANT and Reanimator while winning ~75% of the time against Zoo? That's what CounterTop does for me.

CounterTop helps against at least 2/3 of the format. What are your seven or eight weakest slots doing for you?


@Kuma: What list would you suggest for trying countertop?

Here's what I'm running:

4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Meddling Mage
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance

SB:

2 Faerie Macabre
2 Path to Exile
1 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
4 Spell Pierce
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Gilded Drake

Waikiki
04-01-2010, 07:43 PM
if CB serves you then play it by all means. I have played counterbalance before and I perfer to not play it. My zoo and ANT matchups are just fine and reanimator is still not being played by more then 2 players I know of.

Right now I do not feel to get any cards to imrpove any matchup except the merfolk mu.

Jak
04-01-2010, 08:36 PM
CounterTop is too good to be dismissed so flippantly. I'll wager that most of the people who think it's a bad idea haven't tried it. In three tournaments since I added it, it has been winning me games left and right. I've missed the seven cards I cut for it exactly twice. There have been at least a half dozen games CounterTop has won by itself. It helps all of our tough matches except for Merfolk. Why aren't more people running this?

I have tested it, just to let you know. I don't come on here and post bullshit. What tough matchups are these?


But Kuma, running Sensei's Divining Top hurts your blue count for Force of Will.

Sensei's Divining Top can be used to find blue cards. Counterbalance is blue. Survival can find blue cards. Despite a lower than usual blue count for a Legacy deck, I've never had problems finding blue cards before or after adding CounterTop.

When I said that, I was talking about Top without CB.


Running CounterTop hurts the creature count, making it harder to get an active Survival.

This is true, but Sensei's Divining Top can mitigate this by finding creatures. In three tournaments, I've had problems finding a creature for Survival in one game. CounterTop has earned me back that one game many times over.

This also costs more mana. I'm not saying it is terrible, but it is slower.


Running CounterTop hurts your ability to play both the control and aggro roles effectively.

Are you serious? Running CounterTop hurts your ability to be a control deck?

CounterTop has hurt my ability to go aggro inasmuch as Meddling Mage, Vendilion Clique, Eternal Witness, and Trygon Predator are aggro creatures. That is to say, not much.

You are misunderstanding what I said. If you read it again, you'll notice I said control and aggro. Meaning that if you want to play control, the deck can't play aggresively like it wants to at times, ie play out threats to attack or block swarms. Counterbalance isn't flexible and really limits how you play the game since it will tie up all your mana at times (Top does this actually, but its because of CB) and basically puts you on either control or having a dead card in hand. All the cards you listed are creatures and can still beat it. This deck isn't trying to play balls to the wall aggro, but it is still trying to beatdown. Stuff like Vendilion Clique, MM, Witness, and Predator are great at controlling the board while doing damage.


This deck is a Survival deck first and foremost.

No, this deck is a deck designed to win games first and foremost. Either CounterTop helps it do this or it doesn't. I care about wins and losses, not "definitions."

Decks have definitions. Obviously all decks try to win first and foremost, but what sets them apart is how they do it. This deck tries to do it with Survival and when that fails it falls back on the powerful creatures and mana efficient spells to overrun the opponent. Counterbalance takes away from your primary way to win. I'm not saying that it takes away from the whole deck, since there are situations where it shines, but in my testing those never outdid the places where it was terrible.


It's easier not to run Counterbalance.

It would also be easier to cut Survivals and play Bant Aggro.

Running CounterTop makes the deck harder to play, but it makes the deck better too. Winning games is what's important. If you want an easy to play deck, go build Belcher.

You took that quote out of context. I don't care if the deck becomes harder to pilot effectively, it doesn't make it better, IMO. From testing it imporved 1 relevant MU and that was Zoo. Counterbalance was able to shut him down or distract his Pridemages and let Survival by. In all other ones, I felt it took away from the deck. This deck is good because of its aggressiveness which makes cards like Force of Will, Swords and the other tempo cards better. Slowing the deck down negates the tempo you gain from Hierarchs and those efficient answer cards.

This deck is flexible. It can switch in and out of roles easily while always applying beatdown. Counterbalance can of course come down with Top and win the game. Thats how Legacy made it. I know the combo is good. What isn't is when your deck can't facilitate its plan.

Kuma
04-02-2010, 12:26 PM
I have tested it, just to let you know. I don't come on here and post bullshit.

I never accused you of either thing.


What tough matchups are these?

Zoo, ANT, and Reanimator. It also helps with CounterTop, Canadian Threshold, Loam, the mirror match, and more.


When I said that, I was talking about Top without CB.

What about the rest of my rebuttal? You know, the parts other than "Counterbalance is blue."

Someone on here did the math for the probability of having a blue card and Force of Will in your opening hand, and the difference between 15 and 24 blue sources was something like 7%. Do you have issues finding that blue card? I switched to this deck from CounterTop with Progenitus which ran like 23 blue sources, and I haven't noticed much of a difference in my ability to FoW. Sensei's Divining Top and Survival of the Fittest might as well be blue cards after turn two.


This also costs more mana. I'm not saying it is terrible, but it is slower.

True, but so far it's only been relevant in one out of thirty-something games.


You are misunderstanding what I said. If you read it again, you'll notice I said control and aggro.


It's easier to just not play CB. The deck gets clunky as hell and plays completely different, ie can't play either role (control or aggro) effectively.

:confused:


Meaning that if you want to play control, the deck can't play aggresively like it wants to at times, ie play out threats to attack or block swarms.

Why do you need to "play aggressively" if you have your opponent locked?

Having active CounterTop doesn't mean you can't play creatures. If you need an attacker or blocker you can still play one. Granted, CounterTop takes up creature slots, which hurts your ability to go aggro a little, but your ability to play control goes through the roof.


Counterbalance isn't flexible and really limits how you play the game since it will tie up all your mana at times (Top does this actually, but its because of CB) and basically puts you on either control or having a dead card in hand.

Who cares if their mana is tied up when their opponent can't resolve spells? It's not that hard to play a creature or two with CounterTop out --- CounterTop decks do this all the time. Also, our CMC curve is perfect for Counterbalance which helps us blind-flip. The flexibility of being able to play CounterTop or Survival is easily worth the occasional dead card, especially when we run a card advantage engine like Survival of the Fittest.


This deck isn't trying to play balls to the wall aggro, but it is still trying to beatdown.

And it does so nearly as well despite cutting creatures for CounterTop. Removing your four worst aggro creatures doesn't hurt your ability to go aggro much.


Stuff like Vendilion Clique, MM, Witness, and Predator are great at controlling the board while doing damage.

It's often much better to take total control of the board instead of messing with your opponent's draw step a little while beating them for a few extra points of damage.

I don't know about you, but Vendilion Clique, Meddling Mage, Eternal Witness, and Trygon Predator were my four most boarded out cards when I ran them.


Decks have definitions. Obviously all decks try to win first and foremost, but what sets them apart is how they do it. This deck tries to do it with Survival and when that fails it falls back on the powerful creatures and mana efficient spells to overrun the opponent. Counterbalance takes away from your primary way to win.

It takes a little bit away from your primary way to win and gives you another strong secondary option.


I'm not saying that it takes away from the whole deck, since there are situations where it shines, but in my testing those never outdid the places where it was terrible.

And I value the results of your testing. My testing has lead me to a different conclusion, and I think the topic needs more attention than the five posts in fifty-three pages it had. The reason I made my post was to provide stronger arguments on both sides to help people better make up their minds. Your post is a much stronger argument for not running Counterbalance than anything posted previously in the thread, and for taking the time to type it out, I thank you.


You took that quote out of context. I don't care if the deck becomes harder to pilot effectively, it doesn't make it better, IMO. From testing it imporved 1 relevant MU and that was Zoo... In all other ones, I felt it took away from the deck.

It's not like Zoo is really important or anything. Also, you don't consider ANT a relevant match?


This deck is good because of its aggressiveness which makes cards like Force of Will, Swords and the other tempo cards better. Slowing the deck down negates the tempo you gain from Hierarchs and those efficient answer cards.

Turn one Hierarch, turn two Counterbalance + Top/Brainstorm seems like a good use of tempo.


This deck is flexible. It can switch in and out of roles easily while always applying beatdown. Counterbalance can of course come down with Top and win the game. Thats how Legacy made it. I know the combo is good. What isn't is when your deck can't facilitate its plan.

I don't know how else to state my case. My list can still switch roles and applies the beatdown nearly as well as it did before. Maybe I'll write some tournament reports to better demonstrate how the deck works with Counterbalance.

majikal
04-02-2010, 12:38 PM
Zoo, ANT, and Reanimator [are difficult matchups]
I haven't had any problems with Zoo or ANT, and since I dedicated a little SB hate to Reanimator, i haven't lost a single match to it. The only thing I've really disliked about the deck is that sometimes I want Meddling Mage to be Spellstutter Sprite, but overall, the only truly problematic matchup is Merfolk.

I mean, I can see the merits of playing CB/Top, but I don't think it necessarily makes the deck better or worse, but it does cater more to a different playstyle, which can drastically alter your results if you aren't comfortable with the way the deck plays without it.

I personally have tried builds with and without CB/Top and am more comfortable without it, and my results reflect this.

paK0
04-03-2010, 05:09 PM
Had my first (small) tournament with this today and I'm surprised how good the deck is. I tested it a little while ago but it sucked (now I'm 100% sure this was because of my playskill)

Anyways, small report:

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [A] Tropical Island
2 [B] Savannah
1 [A] Tundra
2 [UNH] Forest
1 [UNH] Island
1 [UNH] Plains

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [BD] Brainstorm
2 [M10] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [TO] Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre


This was what I wanted to play but I didn't get all cards so the list was
-2 Heath
-1 Savannah
+2 Flooded
+1 Temple Garden
Unfortunate, but was never relevant.

Round 1: Cephalid Breakfeast
G1: He is screwed and Iona on turn 4 ends it rather quickly.
G2: He misses the En-Cor so I just keep countering all attempts to find it, Goyf cleans up.

Round 2: Aggro Loam
G1: He has the nuts and I never felt like I had a shot.
G2: A little closer, I make a terrible decision midways so I deserve to loose.

Round 3: Hive/Pact wit NO
G1: I have a Goyf + Sprite + Force but he goes off the turn before I am able to take him down.
G2: Awkward, he takes about 16 dmg from his Vaults and a singe Hierarch. Some Goyf finished him (if I remember correctly)
G3: I have a crapload of disruption, but only a little preassure. He manages to get a Progenitus into play but he is on 4 and I have 3 Hierarch + Loyal Retainers, so he can't attack. We play Draw/Go for 5 turns or so until I rip a Clique, seeing nothing relevant after his drawstep and fly over for the win.

Round 4: Reanimator:
G1: I know what hes on, and I keep a hand with no disruption but Sower to beat Iona. Unfortunately he gets Leviathan with study and finishes me off.
G2: He gets SnT on Iona, but since I get RWM + exalted he can't attack. Survival gets countered and my Goyf gets big enough to smash through.
G3: Archangel turn two, but I get Survival and on 4 life I get Iona into play (Daze and FoW proof) which gets a little help from Hierarch and swings the game in my favour.

Overall:
6-4 3-1-0

3rd place for a foil Crusher (meh)


The meta was Combo heavy, so the Sower should have been a MM (as well as maybe a RWM) but the deck played well and in a vacuum I would play this list again I guess.

Kuma
04-05-2010, 02:15 PM
How do you guys side for/approach the mirror match?

I usually take out Meddling Mage, a Rhox War Monk, and something else for a Faerie Macabre or two and Gilded Drake, but I can't help but feel there's a better plan.

Waikiki
04-05-2010, 02:21 PM
Since im the only survival player in NL I still have to find a mirrormatch.

But I think I would be boarding in jitte, sower, grips(no sure about these) and boarding out depends on what I expect and have seen on game 1.

akiratheoni
04-05-2010, 02:36 PM
Hey guys, just assembled Bant Survival (no Loyal Retainers/Iona though) and I really love the deck, I think it's one of my favorites now. However, I've been having a bit of trouble with the UW Tempo matchup, mainly because Rhox War Monk + Rafiq + Wonder is amazing, but it can't get past a Mother of Runes'd Serra Avenger. Other than Swords, what would be the best answer to it?

Julian23
04-05-2010, 03:47 PM
From the top of my head: Umezawas Jitte with at least 2 creatures that dont die to Avenger (read: RWM).

MULocke
04-05-2010, 03:53 PM
How do you guys side for/approach the mirror match?

I usually take out Meddling Mage, a Rhox War Monk, and something else for a Faerie Macabre or two and Gilded Drake, but I can't help but feel there's a better plan.

I play with CB/Top in my main, so my deck/sb might be a little different. When I play against the "mirror," I usually take out the Iona/Retainers package, and maybe a few War Monks depending on how many cards I have to bring in. The Iona combo feels like more of a liability because it requires an active Survival (Grip, Pridemage), no graveyard hate (Faerie Macabre), and gets completely blown out by a Gilded Drake or Sower. I'd rather have less dead cards in my deck than a really risky combo. Also, Rhox War Monk tends to be really small in general. Exalted is nice, so this could be wrong (side out stuff like Meddling Mage first), but he's been unimpressive whenever a Goyf sticks, as he needs a few exalted guys to be able to attack effectively. He also is expensive when you'd rather be spending mana on better bombs. As for what to bring in, stuff like Gilded Drakes, Sowers, and Threads are obvious additions. I'm not sure how many Macabres to bring in, one or two seems right to deal with the Squee/Genesis/Witness engines. Obviously stuff like extra Pridemages, Grips come in as well.


Hey guys, just assembled Bant Survival (no Loyal Retainers/Iona though) and I really love the deck, I think it's one of my favorites now. However, I've been having a bit of trouble with the UW Tempo matchup, mainly because Rhox War Monk + Rafiq + Wonder is amazing, but it can't get past a Mother of Runes'd Serra Avenger. Other than Swords, what would be the best answer to it?

Multiple Goyfs. I'm assuming you have a Survival going because you got this combo, so go find a few Tarmogoyfs and fly over with them, too (a la Wonder).

Esper3k
04-07-2010, 08:49 AM
Hey guys, just assembled Bant Survival (no Loyal Retainers/Iona though) and I really love the deck, I think it's one of my favorites now. However, I've been having a bit of trouble with the UW Tempo matchup, mainly because Rhox War Monk + Rafiq + Wonder is amazing, but it can't get past a Mother of Runes'd Serra Avenger. Other than Swords, what would be the best answer to it?

I've had some difficulties with this matchup as well (this and a UB variant of it have been showing up in my meta).

Jitte sounds like it would work well because all of their guys are relatively small and Mother can't protect them from it. However, you may have problems getting it to stick since they're running quite a few (especially with Stoneforge Mystic) as well.

I've liked 1 Taiga + 3x Firespout in the board for this deck as well as for Merfolk.

I play a slightly heavier fetchland build and just wait until I want to play the Firespout before cracking a fetchland for the Taiga and going wiping their board away. Even if they have Mother of Runes around, they can only save so many creatures.

unicoerner
04-07-2010, 11:41 AM
I really liked the discussion of CB+Top.
I think adding these 2 cards has 2 reasons: 1) Improving our Combo MU 2) Improving Zoo and Burn
If we make break our meta down and realize these decks will be played a lot we should perhaps just switch to a Counterbalance deck and not try to squeeze it into our current deck ( whatever it may be).

More important for me is the 2nd counter we should play. I saw lots of build including Spellsputter and they had success wit it. I just can`t see how they did it. In the first 3 turns i want to drop sth relevant and apply pressure. So in these turns i don`t want to hold mana behind to perhaps play Sprite. Another reasons against sprite is our low count of Faeries. On the other side we can tutor for it, whicvh is great, but then we are in round 3 atleast.

But Daze, Pierce and Snare have all drawbacks aswell.

akiratheoni
04-07-2010, 11:47 AM
Yeah I was thinking about running SFM and Jitte as well. I also run Eternal Witness so if I have to get rid of Jitte with my own (or they get rid of mine with theirs) I can always fetch it back.

majikal
04-07-2010, 12:25 PM
I really liked the discussion of CB+Top.
I think adding these 2 cards has 2 reasons: 1) Improving our Combo MU 2) Improving Zoo and Burn
If we make break our meta down and realize these decks will be played a lot we should perhaps just switch to a Counterbalance deck and not try to squeeze it into our current deck ( whatever it may be).

More important for me is the 2nd counter we should play. I saw lots of build including Spellsputter and they had success wit it. I just can`t see how they did it. In the first 3 turns i want to drop sth relevant and apply pressure. So in these turns i don`t want to hold mana behind to perhaps play Sprite. Another reasons against sprite is our low count of Faeries. On the other side we can tutor for it, whicvh is great, but then we are in round 3 atleast.

But Daze, Pierce and Snare have all drawbacks aswell.
I personally have enjoyed Meddling Mage in that slot as it is proactive and extremely flexible. This is purely a meta choice though, and sometimes I do wish it were Spellstutter, but that's generally one game in ten. Spellstutter Sprite seems like it is better in metas infested with a variety of low casting-cost things, like Zoo critters or ANT, while Meddling Mage is better against decks with specific pieces that you want to shut down -e.g. NO, CB/Top, LftL, etc - while not being terrible against everything else (as long as you're well knowledgeable of your meta).

Jokemon
04-07-2010, 05:55 PM
I played Meddling Mage for a while.
Played two big Legacy tournaments last weekend, 1st one with Meddling Build, never searched for them and didn't feel need for the at all.. So i switched for Sprites in the second and there where awesome all tournament. But i think it's as majikal said a meta call and a matter of play style.

unicoerner
04-07-2010, 08:19 PM
And what`s about Pierce and Snare?

majikal
04-07-2010, 08:48 PM
And what`s about Pierce and Snare?
Pierce fits very nicely into my Sideboard. I haven't missed Spell Snare at all; it was often a dead card against many, many matchups.

Kuma
04-08-2010, 03:01 PM
I really liked the discussion of CB+Top.
I think adding these 2 cards has 2 reasons: 1) Improving our Combo MU 2) Improving Zoo and Burn

CounterTop improves your matchup against the format. There are few decks where CounterTop isn't effective.


If we make break our meta down and realize these decks will be played a lot we should perhaps just switch to a Counterbalance deck and not try to squeeze it into our current deck ( whatever it may be).

Counterbalance decks have no real advantages over Bant Survival w/ CounterTop. Loyal Retainers/Iona is a better combo than NO/Progenitus. Survival of the Fittest is better than Daze. We run more creatures and have a better card advantage engine. Survival of the Fittest, with or without Sensei's Divining Top, gives us unparalleled card selection.

godryk
04-08-2010, 04:18 PM
I've goldfished a bit with Kuma's list and seems not so bad, I feel like testing it. Just a general question. Imagine you are on the play against an unknown opponent and drop a... let's say, a T1 Hierarch and your opponent opens with an uncracked fetchland and passes turn. If you have both Survival and Counterbalance in hand, which one would you play first?

Kuma
04-08-2010, 04:39 PM
I've goldfished a bit with Kuma's list and seems not so bad, I feel like testing it. Just a general question. Imagine you are on the play against an unknown opponent and drop a... let's say, a T1 Hierarch and your opponent opens with an uncracked fetchland and passes turn. If you have both Survival and Counterbalance in hand, which one would you play first?

It depends. If it's a non-blue fetch and I don't have Sensei's Divining Top or Brainstorm, I'll play Survival first and go for the turn three Iona. If I don't have a creature for Survival, I'll play Counterbalance first. If I have a Sensei's Divining Top, I'll play Counterbalance first. However, you have to be careful since a lot of blue lists run Windswept Heath.

If it's a blue fetch and I don't have Top, I'll play Counterbalance first to try to draw out countermagic so I can safetly resolve Survival. If I have Top I'll play Survival first, let them counter it, and set up CounterTop next turn, hopefully with mana to spin Top as well.

If it's a Polluted Delta, I put them on either ANT or Reanimator and play the Counterbalance first.

Really, it's hard to go wrong here. Either card has a strong chance of winning you the game, although Survival is stronger if you don't have Top. This is the power of running both engines.

Waikiki
04-08-2010, 04:59 PM
My biggest problem is that there is only 1 matchup I want to improve and thats the Merfolk matchup. Which CB in my opinion makes worse. It does improve alot of matchups. Which yet again in my opinion are doable allready. Merfolk is too populair here.

Dark Zero
04-10-2010, 05:10 PM
Hey folks!

I'm just back home from the monthly tournament at the "Magickeller" (Hannover, Niedersachsen, Germany). Played BantSur in a real tournament environment for the first time. I ended up 21th of 45. (3-3, 7-7). Deck felt comfortable and did pretty well regarding my experience with it.

I will post my thoughts about the deck and a closer look to the matches later on.

Here the list I played:

4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
2 Savannah
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
3 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Wonder
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Survival of the Fittest
3 Spell Snare
2 Ponder
1 Sensei's Divining Top

SB:
3 Path to Exile
3 Spell Pierce
2 Krosan Grip
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Kira, Great Glass Spinner

TheAardvark
04-11-2010, 12:29 AM
Played Legacy for the first time in like 6 months today, and went with Bant Survival. I actually have Loyal Retainers from a while back, so I figured I might as well use them. I used CorpT's list from a few pages back with a couple irrelevant SB changes.

The deck is insane. I played Goblins, Reanimator, Zoo, Reanimator, mono black, and split with CounterTop in the finals. I didn't lose a game, nor was I ever really close to doing so. I was able to "race" a turn 2 Inkwell (via Reanimate, so not a true race), which floored my opponent. The only thing I want to fit in the maindeck is a Witness, or maybe the SB, for random scenarios that could occur.

I will say that I think Iona was a massive mistake and should never have been printed. Hell, I had no clue what Karakas had jumped up to $ wise until today when I was looking to trade for the one I borrowed. Completely ridiculous.

I own a handful of duals, no Forces, and only have a handful of fetches left (all sold off over the past few years), but this deck actually made me want to own Tropicals and Forces again. Too bad Legacy is still pretty much dead in my area.

Dark Zero
04-11-2010, 06:55 PM
As promised, here is a more detailed report from yesterday.
Played the list in my post above.

1. vs. CounterTop
1: This Game is pretty much like Goyf -> Sword and vice versa. After that we both have a War Monk on the board and do nothing but draw-go for some turns, then I'm able to get down a Survival with Force backup and go for the Iona.
2: He mulls down to 6, but starts with Island, Needle(naming Survival), go. I start with Forest, Hierarch and in my second turn I play Survival, which resolves. Then I play beaters for a couple of turns but my opponent stabilizes at 4 life due to 2 Goyfs and gets SDT in play. His next draw is the Balance and he is about to complete the lock by casting it, so I grip his Peedle and tutor for my Sprite in response. In my turn I get Squee back, tutor up for Rafiq and fly over his Goyfs for 4.
2:0, 1-0

2. vs LEDless Dredge
1: I manage to counter his PImp and play Hierarch, but in his second turn he plays Breakthrough and goes nuts. A big troll and horrors take me for lunch.
2: My hand is Crypt, Force, Hierarch, Path, 2 Lands, Brainstorm. I sword his Tribe and from there on I win without having difficulties.
3: My first hand is about 5 Lands, 1 Goyf, 1 Retainers so I had to mull. The following 6 are Forest, Crypt, Sword, Sword, Brainstorm, Tarmogoyf. I think in this case I was to greedy for the Crypt. He blows it up with Grudge and rolls over me because I never saw the second land.
3-2, 1-1

3. vs Faeriestill
1: I have to mull to 6 because of no land in the first 7. I'm able to stall the ground and snare his Jitte, but the next turn he gets SoFaI online and two turns after this he has another Jitte. He outraces me regardless of me having Wonder in the Graveyard.
2: My opening 7 are Plains, Tropical, 2 Hierarch, 2 Path, Goyf. I start with Tropical -> Hierarch. He starts with Strand -> go. I play Plains, Hierarch #2, attack with Hierarch #1. He fetches and swords my Hierarch. In his turn he swords the other Hierarch and wastes my Tropical Island. I'm able to hold him back a while with my 2 Paths, but then I die because being screwed on one land.
3-4, 1-2

4. vs Doran Rock
1: I sword his Hierarch and he is screwed with only one Forest in play and could'nt recover. Turn 4 Iona seals the deal.
2: He has double Tidehollow Sculler and always one Goyf more than me and easily outraces me.
3: I get Survival online but he already has a big Knight of the Reliquary. In my turn Iona(naming white) comes down and I'm able to race his Knight by having enough blockers for it (and tutoring up a War Monk as a Force Pitch against his Maelstrom Pulse targeting Iona).
5-5, 2-2

5. vs U/W Control
1: He plays a couple of artifact lands and a Talisman of Progression. At this point I'm not sure what his deck is about, but I'm able to force his Wrath of God to save my Hierarches and go for the Iona.
2: Here I get the second turn Gaddock to shut off his WoG and the turn after I land Survival. He O-Rings the Survival, but I discard Iona for Pridemage in response. Qasali takes care of the Oblivion Ring and Iona finishes him.
7-5, 3-2

6. vs BANT Aggro
1: I'm able to handle everything he plays for a while, but then he resolves a Jitte and outclasses me.
2: He has the triple Hierarch hand and again his one off Jitte with Force backup against my Force. Just in the turn I draw the Pridemage he plays Clique and that's it.
7-7, 3-3 (ending up 21th out of 45 participants).

I'm pretty happy with the deck. It's fun to play but even so I will make a couple of changes. The first one is to go up to 19 lands. I found myself stuck on few lands a little to often.
Iona + Retainers package did awesome by winning a big percentage of my games (during the tournament as well as in the games for fun that day).
I will add Trygon Predator or a third Qasali Pridemage because I had a hard time dealing with equipment(read: Jitte) with only two Qasalis.
Sprite did pretty well the entire day by countering here and chumping there. But for next time I consider switching to Pathes and Meddling Mages MD instead of Sprite. But I have to test both versions more.

One last thing I want to know:

Is Rafiq really worth his slot? Sure, he often gives you "the reach" and surprises your opponent(and is a pitch for Force), but on the other hand he often sucks.
Need to figure that out, what are your opinions on him?

Skeggi
04-12-2010, 08:21 AM
Need to figure that out, what are your opinions on him?
Yesterday, a Bant Survival deck won a 29 people tournament in Amsterdam, running a Rafiq. The pilot said Rafiq wasn't always the best card he could have, but he sufficed, plus has an awesome factor that makes the deck alot more fun to play.

CorpT
04-12-2010, 07:37 PM
My biggest problem is that there is only 1 matchup I want to improve and thats the Merfolk matchup. Which CB in my opinion makes worse. It does improve alot of matchups. Which yet again in my opinion are doable allready. Merfolk is too populair here.

CB and Survival may look good together, but we tested it and it never seemed to help. Sure CB/Top is great against a lot of things, but like you said, not the things I want help against. I'm already ok vs most of the things CB helps with.


Played Legacy for the first time in like 6 months today, and went with Bant Survival. I actually have Loyal Retainers from a while back, so I figured I might as well use them. I used CorpT's list from a few pages back with a couple irrelevant SB changes.

The deck is insane. I played Goblins, Reanimator, Zoo, Reanimator, mono black, and split with CounterTop in the finals. I didn't lose a game, nor was I ever really close to doing so. I was able to "race" a turn 2 Inkwell (via Reanimate, so not a true race), which floored my opponent. The only thing I want to fit in the maindeck is a Witness, or maybe the SB, for random scenarios that could occur.

Glad to hear you did well with the list my team has been working on. We've been having some issues against Golbins, but I think a lot of that is draw dependent on both sides. I got wrecked by some Piledrivers I couldn't answer, and my friend was wrecked by some crazy SGC shenanigans. We're looking into replacing a Trop with a Taiga main and adding Spouts to the board to help both this and the Merfolk MU. The board would probably look something like this:
2 Krosan Grip
2 Spell Pierce
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Firespout
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Faerie Macabre

We would then remove one card in the main to move Kira, Great Glass Spinner to the main deck as it is very good against a lot of the removal heavy decks. We're not exactly sure what to cut main yet though.


Yesterday, a Bant Survival deck won a 29 people tournament in Amsterdam, running a Rafiq. The pilot said Rafiq wasn't always the best card he could have, but he sufficed, plus has an awesome factor that makes the deck alot more fun to play.

I've continued to be impressed with Rafiq. He is one of those must answer threats that both surprises people and allows you to steal wins. Against Progenitus, I was able to swing with an Iona for 18 in the air after he landed a Progenitus. Completely stole that game that would have gone bad quickly if I wasn't able to finish it as fast as I did. Additionally, his 4 CMC can be good against CB decks that are lighter on 4 than most other CMC. I've found that to be useful from time to time.

TheAardvark
04-13-2010, 12:31 PM
Rafiq was instrumental in many of my wins; I would have certainly lost to the turn 2 Inkwell if not for Rafiq. I would never cut him from the deck, honestly, but I can see him beeing sided out in certain matchups.

@CorpT,

I can see Firespout being an upgrade. I never played Merfolk on the day, but would have probably liked more SB cards for the matchup if I had. I'd say the changes are solid, although I'm not sold on Kira maindeck personally.

CorpT
04-13-2010, 03:01 PM
Rafiq was instrumental in many of my wins; I would have certainly lost to the turn 2 Inkwell if not for Rafiq. I would never cut him from the deck, honestly, but I can see him beeing sided out in certain matchups.

@CorpT,

I can see Firespout being an upgrade. I never played Merfolk on the day, but would have probably liked more SB cards for the matchup if I had. I'd say the changes are solid, although I'm not sold on Kira maindeck personally.

That's exactly how I've used Rafiq as well. He definitely gets sided out, but it's probably not as often as others think. I find myself siding out Forces more than some would expect.

It sure does seem to be an upgrade. I guess our thought on Kira main was that we definitely wanted Kira in the 75, but needed to make room for one more card in the board, so took the most useful card from there (Kira) and moved her main. Realistically, it could be any of the creatures from the board, but we felt Kira was the most useful. Right now, I feel like we are bare-bones on creatures in the board to bring in:
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress

Kira just seemed the best of those to go to the main.

TheAardvark
04-13-2010, 04:43 PM
I can see that logic, but there were a couple of times where I wished I had access to a single Witness to cash in Iona again, etc. But then, Survival and Witness are my two favorite cards of all time, so I might be biased.

And yes, I sided out Forces multiple times. There are some matchups where other stuff is just better.

CorpT
04-13-2010, 06:20 PM
I can see that logic, but there were a couple of times where I wished I had access to a single Witness to cash in Iona again, etc. But then, Survival and Witness are my two favorite cards of all time, so I might be biased.

And yes, I sided out Forces multiple times. There are some matchups where other stuff is just better.

Have you considered Jotun Grunt instead of Witness? It has three benefits, IMO.
1) It beats pretty hard
2) It can randomly screw other GY based decks.
3) It can recylce your creatures back in many times.

Slayer
04-13-2010, 07:01 PM
@TheAardvark, What MU's do you side out FoW?

majikal
04-13-2010, 08:15 PM
@TheAardvark, What MU's do you side out FoW?
Aggro decks, generally. It's pretty terrible against Zoo in particular.

TheAardvark
04-13-2010, 08:44 PM
Have you considered Jotun Grunt instead of Witness? It has three benefits, IMO.
1) It beats pretty hard
2) It can randomly screw other GY based decks.
3) It can recylce your creatures back in many times.

I hadn't, actually. It seems ok, but taking a turn to make it relevant seems a bit awkward. I dunno, it might be perfectly fine; I just have a Witness fetish.

@Slayer,

Like he said, things like Zoo, burn, etc. There aren't a ton of matchups where it comes out for me, but it does happen.

GrandInquistorTheRealDeal
04-14-2010, 02:39 PM
(on siding out FoW)


Aggro decks, generally. It's pretty terrible against Zoo in particular.


I certainly see the logic here, especially on the play. But I'd like to offer a different take. I keep FoW in against fast aggro in order to accomplish two goals:

(1) Sometimes countering a first turn beater (Nacatl, Lynx) ends up buying you lots of turns. If you don't have removal or an adequate blocker the sum of life lost from turn 2 until stabilization is often worth the card disadvantage.

(2) Often post board is about your silver bullets against their anti-bullet. E.g. them bringing in Gaddock Teeg to answer engineered explosives or something. FoW is the catch-all that allows your game changing cards to stick.

I'm definitely receptive to the idea that keeping in more bullets, search or early answers like PtE are still superior to leaving FoW in, just wanted to see what people thought of this.

Waikiki
04-14-2010, 02:49 PM
My logic is there isnt a single card I want to give 2 cards in my hand for in the zoo matchup.

CorpT
04-14-2010, 04:42 PM
My logic is there isnt a single card I want to give 2 cards in my hand for in the zoo matchup.

That's basically when I board out FoW too. Zoo is a prime example of that because all of their spells are basically the same. Stopping one doesn't stop the next one. Especially not when I'm down 2 cards instead of 1. I haven't had many issues with Zoo though, so I'm not terribly worried about it.

Stewieakadan
04-14-2010, 05:17 PM
Tried out the deck for the 1st time on the weekend and I like the deck. Im need to learn the deck better to be able to fully use it to its potential. Ive read the forums over n over and it is helping me alot. I like the use of paths over STP main board, I used spell snare and it was solid. the sprites were ok. One question is are you guys worried about Sneak attack/ Show and tell decks after RoE? also belcher is a expolsive deck, how do we deal with the sheer speed of those two?

Waikiki
04-14-2010, 05:22 PM
Myself I would never run path maindeck over swords:(

Stewieakadan
04-14-2010, 05:27 PM
hmmm interesting whats the pros n cons of swords vs path?

Waikiki
04-14-2010, 05:44 PM
Giving my opponents land suck. I dont care if they get life. Imagine pathing a T1 lackey. They drop T2 warchief which is even more scary.

Skeggi
04-15-2010, 02:44 AM
Except that you shouldn't path that lackey before their untap step, young padawan :wink:. But the point is still clear: you want to destroy the Lackey because it gives a huge tempo boost. An extra land drop also gives a huge tempo boost. So it doesn't make alot of sense to run Path over Swords (in this deck).

Kuma
04-15-2010, 02:11 PM
One question is are you guys worried about Sneak attack/ Show and tell decks after RoE?

In a word, no. Those decks won't be fantastic matchups, but they won't be bad either. Sneak Attack is a two card, five mana combo. Compare that to Painter/Grindstone which is a two card, six mana combo, except that the pieces are individually useful. Nobody runs Painter right now, and I'll bet no one will run Show and Tell/Sneak Attack/Emrakul in a couple of months. Show and Tell is a little more worrisome, but I run Spell Pierce and Gilded Drake in my sideboard, so at least I have answers.


also belcher is a expolsive deck, how do we deal with the sheer speed of those two?

1. Mulligan into Force of Will

2. Board in Spell Pierce and Gaddock Teeg (if you run it)

3. Profit

Seriously, Belcher isn't a problem. It's at least 80/20 in our favor.

memnarch
04-19-2010, 12:18 AM
I'm glad to see the survival decks doing well here. I used to play welder survival and it was remarkably quick and a lot of fun. I realize now the in depth discussion on counter spells and I tend to agree with a lot of what was said. Daze sets your land back and this deck needs land especially when dropping larger creatures and with survival. Its also weak late game I continually find this to be true. Spell sprite is tempting but its really the best for STP and discard most of what you really want to hit is 2. You need to imagine your self in that situation where you won't get survival. If you really rely on it you should do 4 enlightened tutor. But I would rather deflect dangerous spells and stall slightly. My deck list is some sort of merger between bant countertop without the countertop and survival.

19 land:

1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand

4 Nobel Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Trygon Predator
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Wonder
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
4 STP
4 FOW
4 Spell Snare

Side:

1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Thorn of Amerthyst
2 Meddling Mage
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pithing Needle

Breakdown: 21 Creatures 20 Blue cards.

If someone with some experience with this deck has any pointers let me know. I choose knight over Rafiq because of the ability to fetch wasteland. I find certain lands can really hurt this deck like tabernacle and Karakas. Also I went to 4 Rhox War Monks. Dropping him turn 2 via Nobel Hierarch is great and I find the life gain useful as this deck can extend the games. Wonder has been great to me. I played her one game against a deck using burn he wouldn't kill it for fear of all my goyfs gaining flying it was vs bitter blossom. She held back the tokens and won me the game.

Black Mass
04-19-2010, 04:10 AM
I personally don't think Knight can add anything to this deck besides a big body who is reliable to the graveyard.
Rafiq can change the gamestate instantly, is an extra blue card and, with Iona, is a 2 turn clock.
That's just my 2 cents.

chokin
04-19-2010, 06:12 AM
Knight/Wasteland is a no go for the deck. Karakas only hits legends...so just don't play them? A fat, flying, exalted RWM is pretty bomb.

Tabernacle is pretty rare to run into I think. It's primarily used by Lands and Stax. Lands can answer your attacks with manlands and Maze of Ith, so you could negate MoI with Kira, right? And fliers kinda ignore the manlands. Predator will help your Stax matchup. Plus Wasteland is useless against both decks, as they can recur Tabernacle.

Waikiki
04-19-2010, 06:47 AM
I pretty much agree with the 2 posters above. I would still suggest running ponders > spell snare.

Dark Zero
04-19-2010, 12:44 PM
I tested the version without Snares, but with +1 Pridemage, +1 Ponder (to a total of 3) and the faerie package lately and I have to agree with Waikiki, I don't really miss the Snares.
Most of the time they counter Goyf's which is a pretty nice move, but I actually don't find myself in a situation where I could not handle a Goyf (or something worse than a Goyf) in another way. And if you are able to get Survival online a snare is a thing you don't really want to see from the top.
Ponder is better here, digging for at least 3 cards, especially with the faeries it's > Spell Snare.

spider900
04-19-2010, 03:30 PM
I played my second tournament w/ BantSur and I really liked it. Went 3-1-1 with it and got 6th out of 22 people, but could easily have been first. I played the final match against Goblins and let a first turn Lackey resolve, although I got FoW + a blue card in hand (HUGE mistake, I realized it directly, but it was too late). Somehow I got stabilized with Survival online and 3 RWM on the table. He reaveals Perish and I am not able to counter, so he kills me the next turn.
I also faced Mono U Faeries (2-0), RWG Knight of the Reliquary Aggro deck (2-0), UBG Survival (1-1) and GW Survival (2-1).

As I said, the deck is really nice and I will continue playing it. I tried Witness in my Rafiq slot, bit I didn't need her all day, so I might replace it with Kira, who has been a house. I think she's worth a MD slot. Also, because I faced a lot of Aggro, I might even up the number of PtE to 4 instead of 3 in the SB.

chokin
04-19-2010, 09:10 PM
Eternal Witness shines most against decks that can deal with Survival game one (QP. TP, etc). Other applications of her were to get back Tormod's Crypts against Ichorid.

She's useful, but in limited applications. I always consider her an option though if the meta calls for it.

I'm rather curious about the Snareless build. I had Daze in the deck for a long time (stubborn), but lately I've been so impressed with Sprites, that I don't think I need much more countermagic. I've also run Snare, but I'm not sure if I need that either. It's randomly fun against black tempo (Hymn, Sinkhole, Confidant, Shade) but decks like that have disappeared.

I am a little bit afraid of Natural Order though. Does anyone think that maindecked Pierces might be good? Or what are other measures to deal with that?

majikal
04-19-2010, 09:21 PM
I am a little bit afraid of Natural Order though. Does anyone think that maindecked Pierces might be good? Or what are other measures to deal with that?
Meddling Mage. It's amazing. I've been toying with the idea of running both it and Spellstutters, even.

JRR
04-19-2010, 09:34 PM
I did a little testing this weekend after the RoE prerelease against ProBant and this deck solidly ran the table. I run the sprite build with 3 sprites, 1 clique, 1 sower. In one game I went so far as to steal his dryad with sower to slow his mana production and keep him off green creatures. After board, we have Llawan to help that matchup as well and I usually board in Meddling Mages. I do have Pierce in my board, but I chose to keep sprites and it paid off, but I would try with Pierce the next time I get a chance to practice against that deck.

Jak
04-21-2010, 04:14 AM
About one hour late (for me at least), but....

Happy Anniversary!

Solaran_X
04-21-2010, 11:03 AM
I've been tossing around the idea of using Emrakul, the Aeons Torn in Bant Survival alongside Iona, Shield of Emeria as a target for Loyal Retainers. Although it would seem to be a bit harder to set up, since you need Loyal Retainers in play first before you Survival Emrakul.

If you can get it to work though, it seems like getting a 15/15 Flying Protection from Colored Spells Annihilator 6 fattie into play is game over for your opponent.

The biggest weakness I see in using Retainers/Emrakul over Retainers/Iona is that after you cast Retainers with Iona in the yard, you can retain priority and sacrifice them to get Iona back before your opponent can destroy Retainers. You don't have that ability with Retainers/Emrakul.

Steino
04-21-2010, 12:32 PM
The biggest weakness I see in using Retainers/Emrakul over Retainers/Iona is that after you cast Retainers with Iona in the yard, you can retain priority and sacrifice them to get Iona back before your opponent can destroy Retainers. You don't have that ability with Retainers/Emrakul.

You can keep priority with Retainers. You will need Emrakul in hand before you play Retainers. With a Retainers and Emrakul in hand and a Survival in play: Play Retainers, after it resolves you get priority back. Discard Emrakul to Survival, but do not attempt to resolve the search. While keeping priority sack Retainers to bring back Emrakul. Your opponent will not have a chance to remove Retainers.

Waikiki
04-21-2010, 12:40 PM
and still getting iona into play is easier and better :(

Julian23
04-21-2010, 01:09 PM
Do . not . include . Emrakul . in . your . maindeck!

In the long run I can imagine putting him in the sideboard to bring in against non-blue decks that aim for the long game. Something like lands although in this particular matchup Iona+Kira is actually all you want.

majikal
04-21-2010, 11:34 PM
Well, I just decided to try a list with Spellstutters instead of MM, and I went 0-2 drop against two mono-green decks in a row. First Berserk Stompy (which killed me on turn 2 twice out of three games!), and then NO Elves. Each time, I'm pretty sure I would have won if the Spellstutters had been Meddling Mage. So, my verdict is now definitively that Sprites do not deserve a place in my 75.

Also, during the tournament I played last week, Meddling Mage singlehandedly won my match against Dredge in the Semi-finals before I lost to Domain Zoo, which is actually quite possibly the worst matchup ever because of their ability to use Tribal Flames to remove things with 4+ toughness.

Kuma
04-22-2010, 02:40 PM
19 land:
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand

4 Nobel Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Trygon Predator
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Wonder
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
4 STP
4 FOW
4 Spell Snare

Side:

1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Thorn of Amerthyst
2 Meddling Mage
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pithing Needle

Given that you're already running SDT, why not run Counterbalance instead of Spell Snare? Also, ever since I added LR + Iona, I've missed Wonder in maybe two games out of 100. KotR + Wasteland seems like an awkward way to deal with problem lands. Faerie Macabre and Kira, Great Glass Spinner should solve 99% of your land problems.

Jak
04-22-2010, 11:32 PM
Wow so Portland Legacy has really died off since Summer and I have only been able to play once (in RL) since Summer. I haven't even been able to use my Retainers since when I got it for $30! There is going to be a larger tournament next month in Vancouver so it is time to dust off my deck. I really haven't decided what I want to play, ie Sprites, Mages, Daze, or even Counterbalance (even though I still dislike this Kuma! :wink:)

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona

This is the core. I think everyone agrees on this or something damn close. It leaves seven slots to switch around and there are a few combinations people run and what I could run at this tournament. I obviously have no idea what will be played since there hasn't been a legacy scene here and the tournament is in another state, so I am going into this blind. Hopefully I can scout a little.

The options
1 Tundra
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterbalance, 3 Top, and a Trinket Mage
1-4 Ponder
3-4 Spellstutter Sprite
2-4 Meddling Mage
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Trygon Predator
1 Wonder
1 Rafiq

Decisions, decisions. Some of these are less likely than others, but I just figured I should list all of them.

Sideboard
2 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Aura of Silence
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Trinket Mage
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Kira
1 Llawan
1 Stoneforge Mystic

A whoel load of crap but I figured it was worth trying. It does open up slots so I figured it would be okay. I still need to cut one. It makes sideboarding much easier as well. I dunno, just some things I am going to try in a local tournament soon (if I can get people to go!).

Lego
04-23-2010, 09:57 AM
Given that you're already running SDT, why not run Counterbalance instead of Spell Snare?

I think you're mistaking STP for SDT. He doesn't run Top.

majikal
04-25-2010, 04:03 PM
So is anyone from this thread going to SCG Atlanta?

jeanbathez
04-27-2010, 10:03 AM
Wow so Portland Legacy has really died off since Summer and I have only been able to play once (in RL) since Summer. I haven't even been able to use my Retainers since when I got it for $30! There is going to be a larger tournament next month in Vancouver so it is time to dust off my deck. I really haven't decided what I want to play, ie Sprites, Mages, Daze, or even Counterbalance (even though I still dislike this Kuma! :wink:)

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona

This is the core. I think everyone agrees on this or something damn close. It leaves seven slots to switch around and there are a few combinations people run and what I could run at this tournament. I obviously have no idea what will be played since there hasn't been a legacy scene here and the tournament is in another state, so I am going into this blind. Hopefully I can scout a little.

The options
1 Tundra
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterbalance, 3 Top, and a Trinket Mage
1-4 Ponder
3-4 Spellstutter Sprite
2-4 Meddling Mage
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Trygon Predator
1 Wonder
1 Rafiq

Decisions, decisions. Some of these are less likely than others, but I just figured I should list all of them.

Sideboard
2 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Aura of Silence
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Trinket Mage
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Kira
1 Llawan
1 Stoneforge Mystic

A whoel load of crap but I figured it was worth trying. It does open up slots so I figured it would be okay. I still need to cut one. It makes sideboarding much easier as well. I dunno, just some things I am going to try in a local tournament soon (if I can get people to go!).

That looks very interesting, a good summary !
One point i like to discuss is the blue count, i have more and more problems with the bluecount in my bant survival versions.
About Top, i like him more and more, at first i added only 1 for a ponder and loved it, so now i'am trying to add more but at my meta i don't see the need for cbmain perhaps SB ? But wouldn't be top very good even without cb ?
On the other side adding more tops makes the blue count very low...
My meta often contains merfolk and goblins, so if i want to prepare for that i would add stoneforge + jitte and sword main....i'am not sure atm

Jak
04-27-2010, 11:02 AM
That looks very interesting, a good summary !
One point i like to discuss is the blue count, i have more and more problems with the bluecount in my bant survival versions.
About Top, i like him more and more, at first i added only 1 for a ponder and loved it, so now i'am trying to add more but at my meta i don't see the need for cbmain perhaps SB ? But wouldn't be top very good even without cb ?
On the other side adding more tops makes the blue count very low...
My meta often contains merfolk and goblins, so if i want to prepare for that i would add stoneforge + jitte and sword main....i'am not sure atm

Top is good, but I just can't put it in place of Ponder (if I even run Ponder) because of what you said. The blue count gets really low. Maybe if you can keep it up at like 18, go for it. I jut put the combination there together because I wasn't sure people were running them sperate.

jeanbathez
04-27-2010, 11:32 AM
@Jak. : Wish you luck and fun for your next legacy in RL ;-)

Thats my problem with the blue count !!! I'am adding there and cancel there, but it isn't easy.
A few months ago i tried 3 Meddling Mages at a tournament first round i crushed belcher with it, but the rounds after i got a lot of aggro...:-(
A few weeks ago i tested stoneforge and jitte, sword of fire and ice (for merfolk and agrro) and meet only hardcore control decks for 3 rounds ....:-(
Thats the game ;-) , but for now i'am trying to take a list which can handle both, but a bit more aggro, its not easy...

f.e. i' thinking of playing 4 RWM main, because i allways like him in nearly every matchup and my blue counts is geetin higher.( I normally play 3 RWM main).

Kuma
04-27-2010, 01:42 PM
The options
3 Counterbalance, 3 Top, and a Trinket Mage

I thought about running a Trinket Mage in my list with CounterTop, but if you have Survival, you can get Iona for the same amount of mana. It might be worth running if you're going to have a toolbox in the sideboard --- something like a Tormod's Crypt, a Relic of Progenitus, and an Engineered Explosives. It might also be cute to run a Grindstone and a Painter's Servant. Bottom line is I'd rather have a 7/7 flying that stops my opponent's spells than a 2/2 and a Sensei's Divining Top, even if I have Counterbalance.


Decisions, decisions. Some of these are less likely than others, but I just figured I should list all of them.

Sideboard
2 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Aura of Silence
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Trinket Mage
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Kira
1 Llawan
1 Stoneforge Mystic

If you're going to run Survival and Counterbalance, Enlightened Tutor seems like a fantastic idea. I'm not sure what I'd cut for them, but I like what you're doing.


I think you're mistaking STP for SDT. He doesn't run Top.

D'oh!


I don't see the need for cbmain perhaps SB ? But wouldn't be top very good even without cb ?

Top is good without Counterbalance, but given that you're running Top, Counterbalance becomes even better. Running it in the sideboard is fine, but it's good against everything in the format except tribal aggro. You'd have to have one weird metagame to make that the right call.


On the other side adding more tops makes the blue count very low...

I addressed this earlier in the thread. Cutting three blue cards only drops your odds of having Force of Will + blue card by a few percent. Once you play Sensei's Divining Top, it can help you find blue cards. It might as well be a blue card after turn two. You're looking at a slightly diminished ability to Force during the first few turns for increased ability to Force for the rest of the game. Plus Top is amazing.


My meta often contains merfolk and goblins, so if i want to prepare for that i would add stoneforge + jitte and sword main....i'am not sure atm

If your meta is mostly Merfolk and Goblins, I'd run Stoneforge Mystic + equipment in the main and Counterbalance in the sideboard.


Top is good, but I just can't put it in place of Ponder (if I even run Ponder) because of what you said. The blue count gets really low. Maybe if you can keep it up at like 18, go for it. I jut put the combination there together because I wasn't sure people were running them sperate.

If you add Counterbalance it helps the blue count, but yeah, we're walking a fine line with the blue count in pretty much all the lists. I don't believe that there's a magic number you can't drop the blue count below. I'm running 16 blue cards right now, and I haven't had problems Forcing since Top and Survival get you blue cards.


I look at FoW's most important duty as being pulled in the first turn.

# of Blue cards in a 60-card deck (Including 4x Force of Will): Approximate chance to open with Force of Will + a blue card (including one of the remaining FoW's)

15: 31.4%
16: 32.6%
17: 33.6%
18: 34.5%
19: 35.3%
20: 35.9%
21: 36.5%
22: 37.0%

Remember that you have a 40% chance to open with at least one FoW. Subtraction will show you the percentage of hands where you open with an FoW but no other blue card.

There are diminishing returns to adding more blue cards for the sake of opening with an active FoW. Moving from 15 to 16 blue cards increases the odds by ~1.2%, but moving from 21 to 22 blue cards increases the odds by ~0.5%.

That is far from answering your question (which will be deck and metagame specific), but it is a decent starting point.

jeanbathez
04-27-2010, 04:53 PM
I addressed this earlier in the thread. Cutting three blue cards only drops your odds of having Force of Will + blue card by a few percent. Once you play Sensei's Divining Top, it can help you find blue cards. It might as well be a blue card after turn two. You're looking at a slightly diminished ability to Force during the first few turns for increased ability to Force for the rest of the game. Plus Top is amazing.

If your meta is mostly Merfolk and Goblins, I'd run Stoneforge Mystic + equipment in the main and Counterbalance in the sideboard.

If you add Counterbalance it helps the blue count, but yeah, we're walking a fine line with the blue count in pretty much all the lists. I don't believe that there's a magic number you can't drop the blue count below. I'm running 16 blue cards right now, and I haven't had problems Forcing since Top and Survival get you blue cards.

Thanks for yor answer Kuma.
About Top and blue count : what you said sound logic.
My plan for my meta was adding 2 stoneforge,1 jitte and 1 sword of fire and ice, but then my blue count was 17 which was low, but now i also wanted to add 3 tops, which is difficult.... i'am like a little kid i want to play all the cards in my deck....;-)

Jak
04-27-2010, 08:03 PM
@Jak. : Wish you luck and fun for your next legacy in RL ;-)

Thank you very much. Hopefully the peoples from Portland can help me test a bit before then.


I thought about running a Trinket Mage in my list with CounterTop, but if you have Survival, you can get Iona for the same amount of mana. It might be worth running if you're going to have a toolbox in the sideboard --- something like a Tormod's Crypt, a Relic of Progenitus, and an Engineered Explosives. It might also be cute to run a Grindstone and a Painter's Servant. Bottom line is I'd rather have a 7/7 flying that stops my opponent's spells than a 2/2 and a Sensei's Divining Top, even if I have Counterbalance.

In some situations it is better to get Trinket to finish the CounterTop combo like against Zoo, but yeah Iona is better most of the time. I really want it there to free up board slots because as you see in my sideboard it is 16 slots and removing that Trinket (since there would be one MD) would bring it to the right size. It does allow me to run the mini toolbox. I think adding the Painter's Grindstone combo is too cute though.



If you're going to run Survival and Counterbalance, Enlightened Tutor seems like a fantastic idea. I'm not sure what I'd cut for them, but I like what you're doing.

Yeah it seems really good in conjuntion or even with just one of those two. It can't really go main since it is card disadvantage, and it hurts the blue, but when you can side it in along with some other hosers (like Wheel, Canonist, etc) it becomes really strong because it can grab those or if they are sucking you can just get your powerful cards.



If your meta is mostly Merfolk and Goblins, I'd run Stoneforge Mystic + equipment in the main and Counterbalance in the sideboard.

I have this in the sideboard, but I have been trying to incorporate it into the main. I run it in a version with Sprites though since fliers are so bomb with Jitte.

spider900
04-28-2010, 04:54 PM
No sales allowed on this site. - Bardo

yankeedave
04-29-2010, 07:02 AM
Hey Ya'll

Just a quick query really, but I am attending the UK Legacy Nats this weekend and its looks like Bant and Bantsur will be putting up good numbers. Are they any spectactularily bad matchups for this deck that I can play on?

Dave

Waikiki
04-29-2010, 12:36 PM
the only real hard matchup in my experience is Merfolk. For some reason they always drop 3 lords by turn 4 against me.

Kuma
04-29-2010, 02:35 PM
Reanimator and BGW Goodstuff are pretty bad as well. Discard + Perish is a real kick in the dick.

jeanbathez
04-30-2010, 05:51 AM
the only real hard matchup in my experience is Merfolk. For some reason they always drop 3 lords by turn 4 against me.

I had that, too. He had 2 Lords on the table and pitched his 3rd to a force....and my spell wasn't that important at all, but thats the game....;-)

@Merfolk : Still thinking if its worth it : adding 2 Stonefore, 1 Jitte, 1 Sword of Fire and Ice, did anyone test that too ?

Slayer
04-30-2010, 06:16 AM
@Kuma, I'v not found Reanimator to be a prob, Faerie Macabre+Crypt+counters job done.

Jak
04-30-2010, 10:22 AM
@Merfolk : Still thinking if its worth it : adding 2 Stonefore, 1 Jitte, 1 Sword of Fire and Ice, did anyone test that too ?

I am trying to work it in. I have 1 SFM, 2 Jitte, 1 Sofi in the board but I want to incorporate it into the maindeck since my meta is like infested with aggro (I think). I am trying to make it work with Sprites, since flying is awesome with equipment, but haven't found something I like.

Cavius The Great
05-01-2010, 06:06 PM
How is this deck evn playable. I don't get it.

Raptor
05-01-2010, 06:16 PM
How is this deck evn playable. I don't get it.

There's an hidden creature that is obviously hidden from all survival decklist but still in every good survival deck. The name of that creature ? Cavius.

Seems pretty weird but eh, scaring your opponent with a scary face is scary. You scare your opponent and win.

Cavius The Great
05-01-2010, 06:29 PM
Oh, bad ass! Wizards named a creature after me? How come I can't see it in gatherer.wizards.com??

Aggro_zombies
05-01-2010, 06:31 PM
Oh, bad ass! Wizards named a creature after me? How come I can't see it in gatherer.wizards.com??

did you download the latest gatherer patch?

Cavius The Great
05-01-2010, 06:43 PM
Aggro, you're in line after AngryTroll.

AngryTroll
05-01-2010, 06:49 PM
.

majikal
05-02-2010, 11:51 PM
Just went 6-2 in Atlanta, getting shafted out of top 16 by my shitty tiebreaks. Ended up in 21st. My only losses were to Countertop/Progenitus in round one and Goblins in round four. Both matches went to game 3 and had me get mana screwed. :(

Oddly enough, I rolled all the fuck over Merfolk all night long.

Edit: and Storm combo. Meddling Mage is such a beating!

Jak
05-03-2010, 01:53 AM
Just went 6-2 in Atlanta, getting shafted out of top 16 by my shitty tiebreaks. Ended up in 21st. My only losses were to Countertop/Progenitus in round one and Goblins in round four. Both matches went to game 3 and had me get mana screwed. :(

Oddly enough, I rolled all the fuck over Merfolk all night long.

Edit: and Storm combo. Meddling Mage is such a beating!

Dang. I check out all the SCG top 16s and always look for Bant Sur. I'm glad you placed very well though. Mind posting the list?

majikal
05-03-2010, 02:06 AM
Dang. I check out all the SCG top 16s and always look for Bant Sur. I'm glad you placed very well though. Mind posting the list?

Same list I've been playing for a while with a couple of changes to the SB -

4x Noble Hierarch
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Rhox War Monk
3x Meddling Mage
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Wonder <--- MVP all day
1x Loyal Retainers

4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Ponder

4x Misty Rainforest
4x Windswept Heath
4x Tropical Island
2x Savannah
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Island
1x Karakas

Sideboard:
3x Spell Pierce
3x Faerie Macabre
1x Gilded Drake
1x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1x Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
2x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Stoneforge Mystic <-- not liking this guy after all. I think I'd rather just play Jitte number 3 or another Spell Pierce.
2x Path to Exile
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn <-- Before you say anything about this, READ: It's not in here to try and cheat into play. In testing it has been brilliant against counter- or removal-heavy decks so I can shuffle all my dead critters back in, essentially for free, and keep playing threats/trying to combo off with Iona. Also, I've pulled some extremely lulzy plays involving an opponent's Crypt/Relic and a Wonder in my yard, pitching Emrakul in response to them activating, shuffling everything in and searching up Wonder again, letting their ability resolve, and then dumping Wonder back in my yard.

I had some very interesting games all night though. In round 2 or 3 (can't remember which and I don't have my notes handy) I played against Belcher, and in the last game I kept a no-land hand that contained two FoWs, 2 Spell Pierces, a Meddling Mage, a Rhox War Monk, and a Noble Hierarch. Turn one he plays Xantid Swarm, which I FoW. The next turn he tries to go off but I FoW his Burning Wish after he cracks an LED. We play draw go for a few turns until I draw into a Forest and play Hierarch, and then topdeck two more Hierarchs in the next two turns and start swinging for 3 every turn. I finally get him down to 3, and he plays a Tinder Wall and a SSG, but I draw into a fetch, go get a Trop, play Survival and dump Wonder in the yard for the win.

The second game of that round (he got me turn 1 on game 1 after I mulled to five with no FoW in sight) consisted of turns 2, 3, and 4 Meddling Mages naming Empty, Belcher, and Burning Wish, in that order. Not a lot to report on there.

jeanbathez
05-03-2010, 06:18 AM
So last weekend i tested 3 Aether Vials, to see how it does, here is the list :

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [R] Savannah
3 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [ZEN] Plains (1)
1 [ZEN] Island (1)
1 [R] Tundra
2 [ZEN] Forest (3a)

// Creatures
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers
1 [10E] Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
1 [BOK] Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator


// Spells
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
2 [M10] Ponder
3 Aether Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [TO] Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 1 [JU] Genesis
SB: 1 [PY] Spore Frog
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [PS] Meddling Mage

Round 1 : Enchantress : 0:2
Game 1 : I don't know what he plays and kept a hand of 2 Lands, vial, Tarmo, and other stuff and only drew lands for the next 4 Turns (i should shuffe more !!!!)
Game 2 : After Mulligan, i kept a hand of 2 lands, survival and other stuff, this time you know what happened, i draw no lands...
In both games i saw 0 force, 0 BS, 0 Ponder > o.k. it can only become better ;-)

Round 2 : Elves Combo with climpse 2:0
Not much to say Force for his glimpse Game 1, Game 2 Cononist for the win

Round 3 : Gb Goblins 2:0
Here Vial shined, vial speed the deck so much with survival in play and he didn't used his wastelands, i think because of my 2 Vials on 2 and 3...

Round 4 : Bant Survival 0:2
My first real bant survival mirror : Its the first game where i missed my cutted spell snares
Game 1 : He went for survival first, next turn i tried my survival and he had spell snare , i force he force back. Then he played Iona on white (check ) and now it becomes interesting he searched for painter servant the turn after and named white my only out was now my bringing in my creatures with vial and hope to find a pridemage, but no....;-)
Game 2 : Again he has spell snare for my survival , and his resolved again, again painter but this time a grindstone ( Hello whats up here i thought)
But he was tapped out, so i thought one draw for grip, Pridemage or Ponder or BS but nothing :-(

Round 5 : Gb Goblins 2:0

> bant survival mirror : has anyone of you played against such a list ? I think the list was way better then mine at least for the mirror...
> aether vial : don't know, sometimes i loved them, i was able to keep hands with 1 land vial and ponder, bs...then searching with survival and use creatures at instand speed...I never meet cb, another matchup where i thought they were good. So still not sure about that...
Comments ?

majikal
05-03-2010, 12:46 PM
The more I think about it, the more I want Null Rod in the sideboard. Countertop decks tend to be slightly problematic, and Null Rod is a one-card answer to Top, Shackles, Explosives, and a myriad of other offensive trinkets.

Tacosnape
05-03-2010, 12:58 PM
Oddly enough, I rolled all the fuck over Merfolk all night long.


Yes. Yes you did.

Fantastic job, awesome to meet you, and I loved seeing Meddling Mage in the list. Still my favorite creature ever made.

Kuma
05-03-2010, 01:02 PM
> bant survival mirror : has anyone of you played against such a list ? I think the list was way better then mine at least for the mirror...


Cards that are good in the mirror match:


CounterTop, especially Sensei's Divining Top
Faerie Macabre
Gilded Drake/Sower of Temptation
Spell Snare

majikal
05-03-2010, 02:59 PM
Yes. Yes you did.

Fantastic job, awesome to meet you, and I loved seeing Meddling Mage in the list. Still my favorite creature ever made.
Nice to meet you too, man! How far is Birmingham from Roswell, GA? You should come down to Supergames and play sometime.

jeanbathez
05-03-2010, 04:07 PM
Cards that are good in the mirror match:


CounterTop, especially Sensei's Divining Top
Faerie Macabre
Gilded Drake/Sower of Temptation
Spell Snare


Thanks Kuma, haven't played a lot of mirrors with bant survival......i had a lot of mirrors with rock-survival...
I think finally you got me there and i will test CounterTop ;-)
I will start with spell snare and some tops main and a cb in side .....will see

Carabas
05-03-2010, 06:45 PM
I really really like maindeck sower, and if you're worried about the mirror, I would make sure to test it. It's great v. a lot of decks, and it's especially brutal against reanimator, as just having it in your list makes their exhumes much much worse. While CB is powerful, I have a hard time seeing how this deck can afford those slots in its 75.

chokin
05-03-2010, 07:31 PM
Gilded Drake might be a good idea as a random way to combat an opponent's Iona. I like that it's 2cc. I know people in the CT thread were talking about Jace TMS and a Chain of Vapor being put in the MD just to have a possible answer for Iona. And with Reanimator's popularity, I think that it may be a good idea to do something similar.

Esper3k
05-04-2010, 04:51 PM
I've been playing Gilded Drake main myself.

I've also been playing around with SDT main instead of Ponder and running 4x Counterbalance in the sideboard for combo/mirror matchups.

I like the idea of Emrakul in the board as anti-anti-graveyard hate!

DragoFireheart
05-04-2010, 10:51 PM
Why does this deck not run Natural Order + Progenitus combo? Is it simply due to a lack of space?

majikal
05-04-2010, 10:59 PM
Why does this deck not run Natural Order + Progenitus combo? Is it simply due to a lack of space?

Yes. It basically boils down to either that or Survival, and Survival really just seems to be more versatile.

jeanbathez
05-06-2010, 07:56 AM
Thanks for your suggestions !!!

Oh man, bant survival is not esay to build there are so many options. I play this deck since summer last year, and its allways changing but thats what i like about this deck, too ;-)

What do you guys think about the vials ?

@all : I had the feeling that more and more bant survival-players are cutting spell snares for Meddling Mages or nothing of both, just playing more creatures or ponders, what do you think ?

majikal
05-06-2010, 07:59 AM
Thanks for your suggestions !!!

Oh man, bant survival is not esay to build there are so many options. I play this deck since summer last weak, and its allways changing ;-)

What do you guys think about the vials ?

@all : I had the feeling that more and more bant survival-players are cutting spell snares for Meddling Mages or nothing of both, just playing more creatures or ponders, what do you think ?
I cut mine for Meddling Mages a while back and haven't missed them at all.

jeanbathez
05-06-2010, 08:29 AM
I cut mine for Meddling Mages a while back and haven't missed them at all.

What about MM against aggro decks, in paricular merfolk ?

Sometimes i had the feeling MM are insane against combo and sometimes against control, but bad against aggro and random decks....

You wrote you crushed merfolk, i see you play 4 RWM, but often they crushed me....?

majikal
05-06-2010, 08:37 AM
What about MM against aggro decks, in paricular merfolk ?

Sometimes i had the feeling MM are insane against combo and sometimes against control, but bad against aggro and random decks....

You wrote you crushed merfolk, i see you play 4 RWM, but often they crushed me....?
Meddling Mage on Aether Vial or Lord of Atlantis after blowing up an Aether Vial is savage. Naming Daze is also pretty good.

I made a point in the Merfolk matchups to worry less about what they were actually doing and just try and stick a Tarmogoyf. The best way to do this is to start a counter war over something. If you can strip their cards away you will win. Along the same line of thinking is to try and get them to Daze your turn one or two play, and then drop or fetch for a dual land so that Wasteland becomes a tempo sink.

Black Mass
05-09-2010, 08:39 AM
I went 3-2-1 into a top 8 split yesterday in a 20-person tournament.
It was my first competitive play I've seen since 6 months so I was a little rusty
lost against Merfolk
first game the only thing I could stick was a Rafiq, wich pounded him, but he was able to chump his way out and eventually he beat me to death with a flying Coralhelm Commander and a Kira.
second game was close agai, but in the end I totally forgot about Reejerey's second ability and was actually topdecked out. Could have won this one.
Second loss was against Pro bant. First game I held on to a hand with 1 Rainforest and a Brainstorm after having to mull to 6, but couldn't find a land. Second game was closer, allthough he was able to resolve a natural order wich made it game, I drew very bad in this one, but mistakes at my end were what cost me this match.
I drew against merfolk
won against ANT, Bridge Burn and Elves

my deck:

4x Tropical Island
3x Savannah
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Windswept Heath

4x Noble Hierarch
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Rhox War Monk
2x Quasali Pridemage
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
3x Spellstutter Sprite
3x Meddling Mage
1x Loyal Retainers
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Kira, Great Glass Spinner
1x Sower of Temptation
1x Rafiq of the Many

4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will

4x Survival of the Fittest


//Sideboard
2x Krosan Grip
2x Tormod’s Crypt
1x Faerie Macabre
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Spell Pierce
3x Path to Exile
2x Umezawa’s Jitte
1x Gilded Drake
1x Llawan, Cephalid Empress

DragoFireheart
05-10-2010, 10:28 AM
Are there any alternatives to Loyal Retainers/Iona if you are unable to afford Loyal Retainers?

zalachan
05-10-2010, 11:06 AM
I have seen some Survival variants run Doomed Necromancer, but i guess its much worse and its black.

ontopic:
As i see it, the deck has 3-4 slots for some blue card, and as I see it (im fairly inadept, but wanna try to play it, cause its Survival<3), people play different counters in it. The majority plays Daze, then some play MM, and others run SSS, while Spell Snare fell out of favor.
What seems to be the best? My reasoning would be Daze or Sprite, but i don't really know.
Iz Daze good now or is it still considered to be a great tempo loss?
Are Meddling Mages worth it in a light-combo meta (reanimator or dredge maybe)?

majikal
05-10-2010, 02:16 PM
Are Meddling Mages worth it in a light-combo meta (reanimator or dredge maybe)?
Meddling Mage is especially awesome against Dredge, and it's not bad against Reanimator either.

chokin
05-10-2010, 07:44 PM
Doomed Necromancer would probably be better in the "Rock" Survival builds. With Anger, preferably. I'd probably swap to Birds of Paradise just to be more consistent with the black mana. But then it's not the same deck at all. So if you can't afford Loyal Retainers, there's no good replacement. The only other option within Bant colors is Breath of Life. And that shit is awful, as you'd have to run about 3 to make it consistent. But then NOPro would be a better set of 4 cards in my opinion.

Meddling Mage against Reanimator can be good. You could name Reanimate and Spell Snare their Exhume, or name Exhume and play a SSS. Only hole in this plan is that they have counters too, so be careful. I think Meddling Mage is just a great card for this deck, as Ethersworn Canonist is useless against some combo decks. And as someone else mentioned, you can name Loam with MM.

I used to run Daze, but I recently switched to Snare/Pierce depending on what I'm expecting. I didn't know Daze was popular again :S

majikal
05-13-2010, 01:18 PM
Ran the same list again to 9th place in a 40-man tournament last night, going 3-1-1. My loss was to a really weird build of Recruiter Aluren, where I played like shit because I didn't know what it was (it really looked like Eva Green in game one, with lots of Bayous, discard, and Tarmogoyfs), and not knowing exactly what was in his deck, misplayed Meddling Mage in game 2 by naming Aluren instead of Recruiter. Sad times.

The draw was against Food Chain combo. That deck is silly. I want to build it. Meddling Mage and V-Clique/Karakas did their job but we went to time after Food Chain guy kept clogging up the board with walls and Squirrel tokens.

The rest of the matches I raped and pillaged my way through the field of Goblins, Merfolk, and New Horizons with flying Tarmogoyfs and Rhox War Monks and even hard cast Iona twice in the same game.

Blitzbold
05-14-2010, 03:06 AM
What do you think of Manuel Bucher's approach to the deck? I used to play Spell Pierce instead of Daze, but the increased speed already made me think about this choice. As Manuel points out, this deck rarely leaves mana open in the early game to pierce or snare something. Daze costs a land drop, but on the other hand allows to tap out aggressively during the early turns. His list also contains a trio of Spellstutter Sprites, summing up to 10 counters in the deck. I am still unsure whether the Sprites or the Mages are better, as both definately do have pros and cons.

Julian23
05-14-2010, 08:36 AM
Can you provide his complete list for further investigation?

Blitzbold
05-14-2010, 08:48 AM
Bucher introduced his version of the Deck in the "2 Legacy Duels" series over at SCG, which are premium only at the moment. I don't know whether revealing any content from those articles is allowed.

majikal
05-14-2010, 01:42 PM
What do you think of Manuel Bucher's approach to the deck? I used to play Spell Pierce instead of Daze, but the increased speed already made me think about this choice. As Manuel points out, this deck rarely leaves mana open in the early game to pierce or snare something. Daze costs a land drop, but on the other hand allows to tap out aggressively during the early turns. His list also contains a trio of Spellstutter Sprites, summing up to 10 counters in the deck. I am still unsure whether the Sprites or the Mages are better, as both definately do have pros and cons.
Daze is fine. I liked it when I tested it, but ended up going with more creatures and Ponder instead, and I haven't missed them. I think it really just comes down to personal preference.

However, I disagree wholeheartedly with the inclusion of Spellstutter Sprite. If you're not holding mana open for Pierce or Snare, then you certainly aren't going to get mileage out of SSS. There are increasingly more relevant 3- and 4-drops in the format, and Meddling Mage proactively keeps them in check, whereas you will randomly get blown out by them if you run SSS.


I don't know whether revealing any content from those articles is allowed.
Decklists are names of cards, which are owned by WotC. SCG can't claim any kind of copyright on them, so there's no reason why you shouldn't be allowed to reveal them apart from respect for the author.

Julian23
05-15-2010, 04:05 PM
For further discussion, here's what the Pro suggested:

Maindeck:

Creatures
1 Loyal Retainers
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
3 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Tarmogoyf

Enchantments
4 Survival Of The Fittest

Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force Of Will
4 Swords To Plowshares


Legendary Creatures
1 Iona, Shield Of Emeria
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
2 Vendilion Clique

Sorceries
2 Ponder

Basic Lands
2 Forest
2 Island

Lands
2 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
4 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
3 Windswept Heath

SB:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Sower Of Temptation
1 Vexing Shusher
2 Path To Exile
3 Spell Pierce
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kira, Great Glass-spinner
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress

It seems (and I agree) Llawan and Kira are guranteed sb slots in every Bant Survival by now. Besides that I would like to point out the 21 blue cards in the maindeck that gives the deck a much easier time supporting FoW which used to be a problem for a lot of us in the past. The only thing I really miss is Krosan Grip in the sideboard but as the pro says, the sb is mainly a meta-choice so feel free to shake things up a bit there.

Waikiki
05-15-2010, 05:35 PM
with only 1 pridemage id certainly would add in a predator.

Blitzbold
05-16-2010, 01:25 AM
This was exactly my thought, so I replaced one of the Vendilions with a Predator. I like the amount of countermagic, but SSS is awfully slow. Even with 1st turn Hierarch I don't want to keep mana open to counter a 1-drop. Since my last post I replaced them with Wonder, Stoneforge Mystic and Umezawa's Jitte.

I lend the deck to a friend of mine for a tournament yesterday, hopefully he'll give me some feedback about it.

Waikiki
05-16-2010, 04:50 AM
I think alot of people are playing SSS wrong. I hardly ever try to counter stuff with it in the early game. Your goal there is to drop a thread that can kick all the way. Then SSS is coming online to protect that thread from getting removed. Or countering atempts to find those answers.

So that leads to the discussion: Kira vs Spellstutter.
where kira takes 1 slot and is survival dependant (when I start to ask myself is removal that scary when survival is out?)
and SSS only gets more insane when survival is out starting faerie chains.

And then we have MM. Which was awesome for me in madrid but I have to warn people that its very very hard to play with.

Julian23
05-16-2010, 06:18 AM
I have to backup Waikiki on this. Unless when playing against combo I never leave open mana for SSS when I got other plays to make. I also really really like the 2 Vendillion Cliques. I said it before: Given they weren't legendary I'd even run 3, maybe 4 becasue they are that good, often hitting for 4 in the air on turn 3 while stripping your opponent's hand of his removal.

Black Mass
05-16-2010, 08:18 AM
SSS can strike hard late game, the deck should play rather agressively and worry about the opponents counters.
The only time I have played SSS in the early gam would be when I had no other option (but mostly you have mulled that hand) or if there is a jitte on your side of the table. (flying + jitte= awesome)

I on the other hand am not as convinced about the Cliques. I think she's rather slow, when she has an effect that is most "effective" in the first 2 turns in my humble oppinion.

Tammit67
05-16-2010, 05:33 PM
A Bant survival List came in 1st this weekend at Jupiter Games. His list should be up on the tournament results page soon

Julian23
05-16-2010, 05:35 PM
His list is already public on Jupiter Games:

Kyle Morin
Bant Survival

4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ponder
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
3 Meddling Mage
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Squee Goblin Babob
1 Wonder
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona Shield of Emeria
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sower of Temptation.

2 Faerie Macabre
1 Emrakul the Aeons Torn
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Spell Pierce
1 Krosan Grip
3 Path to Exile
1 Llawan Cephalid Empress

majikal
05-16-2010, 07:34 PM
Squee Goblin Babob
This made me lol for some reason. :laugh:

tomjulioo
05-17-2010, 11:17 AM
His list is already public on Jupiter Games:

Kyle Morin
Bant Survival

...list...


1 card is missing... maybe 1 ponder?

neon_havoc
05-17-2010, 12:04 PM
It's 1 island

Jayzonious
05-17-2010, 12:11 PM
Emrakul the Aeons Torn? How does this get played?

Jaynel
05-17-2010, 12:17 PM
Emrakul the Aeons Torn? How does this get played?

Two ways:
It gets boarded in against Reanimator, and you put it in to play when they Show and Tell (this is pretty uncommon).
You play Loyal Retainers first, then discard Emrakul to Survival and activate the Retainer's ability with Emrakul's trigger on the stack.

It can also be used to shuffle in your graveyard to dodge graveyard hate and stuff like that, I guess.

But I'm pretty curious about why it's in the board.

conboy31
05-17-2010, 12:18 PM
Emrakul the Aeons Torn? How does this get played?

A) it can be thrown in the yard to shuffle your gy into your deck if you are low on threats or want to recur something.
B) get out loyal retainers on the table. Have a survival of the fittest online with G open. Throw the emrakul from your hand into the yard, in response to his shuffle himself back into your deck trigger you sac your loyal retainers and bring him center stage to your playmat with a shit grin.

majikal
05-17-2010, 12:19 PM
Emrakul the Aeons Torn? How does this get played?
It has a couple of different uses actually. First it's awesome if you're expecting any kind of non-Leyline graveyard hate. You can Survival Emrakul into the yard in response to whatever they're doing and fetch up Wonder or whatever you need to dump back into the graveyard.

It's also awesome against decks with lots and lots of removal. Just shuffle everything back in and keep going.

Lastly, you can animate it with Loyal Retainers in response to its trigger when it hits the graveyard, which is sometimes better than Iona against multicolored decks.

Edit: Looks like I got to the party too late!

Julian23
05-17-2010, 01:46 PM
But I'm pretty curious about why it's in the board.

That's actually the only place it wants to be in. It gets sided in against anything with Show and Tell as well as every deck that aims for the late game.

Dack
05-20-2010, 11:00 AM
Hey everybody, I haven't posted on the thread yet but I follow it with big interest, since I've been playing the deck for 2 months now. I'd just like some comments on my list that seems to work pretty well.

Maindeck

Lands
1 Island
1 Plains
2 Forest
2 Savannah
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath

Creatures
1 Genesis
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Trygon Predator
1 Wonder
2 Meddling Mage
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Rhox War Monk
3 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf

Other Spells
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ponder

Sideboard
1 Windborn Muse
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Gilded Drake
2 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Path to Exile
3 Spell Pierce
1 Rhox War Monk


- My only very tough MUs are Merfolks and Countertop. Has anyone tested Firespout on SB with a Taiga againts Merfolks ?
- What I love with this deck is that the MUs advantages are pretty dependent of the skill of the player, but it's also frustrating to lose against MUs that are doable because of tiny misplays that become big in this deck (that's what happened to me at the BOM)
- I'm waiting for your comments on my list

Regards

Waikiki
05-20-2010, 02:11 PM
I've been trying out something new. So far MM has been working best for me fighting vs SSS, Daze , pierce and spell snare

// Lands
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [PT] Forest (2)
1 [PT] Island (3)
1 [PT] Plains (3)
2 [A] Savannah
1 [A] Tundra

// Creatures
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [BOK] Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
3 [PS] Meddling Mage
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers
1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TO] Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 1 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon

The SB is still trying some stuff out. I have no idea how that will work out.

johanessen
05-20-2010, 07:35 PM
Loyal Retainer+Iona vs Wonder

Where I can find any explanation? Or we need both? (or no-one)

Jak
05-21-2010, 12:42 AM
Loyal Retainer+Iona vs Wonder

Where I can find any explanation? Or we need both? (or no-one)

You need Loyal Retainers/Iona. The combo is just too good to pass up. I'm not saying the deck can't survive without it since Loyal Retainers carries such a heavy price, but it is better with it. Wonder is great versus aggro decks so it will always have a spot. Just because you already have a large flier doesn't mean making Goyfs or War Monks fly is terrible. It breaks stalemates.

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Meddling Mage
4 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Eternal Witness
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona

1 Squee
1 Wonder

SB
4 Spell Pierce
3 Path to Exile
2 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Gilded Drake
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Ethersworn Canonist

I need to trim the MD by a slot but I recently threw Wonder back in cause it actually helps a lot against Zoo and Goblins.

I really should add a couple Crypts for Reanimator and Ichorid so maybe trim some of the Pierces or Paths. I dunno, Portland Legacy died so I can't test.

Black Mass
05-21-2010, 06:33 AM
I'd play them both too, I took out Wonder in my last list in favor of Sower of Temptation and I really missed the Wonder. That could also be that Sower has been very underwhelming for me.

But as Jak. says, it breaks stalemates and gives you another chance (besides Iona/Retainers) to quite easily finish the game.

danielcrocker
05-21-2010, 05:35 PM
Just a quick question, don't get me wrong I'm sure this deck is good but why is it under decks to beat if it never really top 8's ?

Julian23
05-21-2010, 06:02 PM
IT top8'ed heavily in December/January/February. I'm proud I'm at least partly responsible for that.

danielcrocker
05-21-2010, 06:22 PM
I top8'ed heavily in December/January/February. I'm proud I'm at least partly responsible for that.

I just really haven't had any experiences with deck or even seen it in person.

Julian23
05-21-2010, 06:24 PM
I just really haven't had any experiences with deck or even seen it in person.

I'm sorry, I wanted to say "IT top8'ed heavily", not just "I". Sorry for the confusion. Guess you haven't met it because it's one of the most expensive decks in Legacy. Especially after January Loyal Retainers rose in price like crazy.

majikal
05-21-2010, 09:30 PM
I made top8 at a 38-person tournament on Wednesday. My only losses always seem to be decks that I've never played against before, and then when I figure out how to play against them I'm fine. Even Merfolk haven't been posing as much of a problem lately.

The only matchups that consistently gives me headaches are ones involving CounterTop, and that isn't really being played in my meta currently, so I'm okay with that.

Here's a round-by-round breakdown of what I played against:

Round 1 ANT: 2-0. This was Saito's list. I get Thoughtseized early and show him a grip with 2 FoW, Noble Hierarch, Survival, 2 lands and a Rhox War Monk. He takes a FoW. On my turn I play Noble, pass turn. On his upkeep he casts M. Tutor and I FoW it. He draws a card for the turn and passes. On my turn I rip a Meddling Mage and name Ad Nauseam, and he scoops. I board in a bunch of Spell Pierces in place of StP, and Ethersworn Canonist instead of Pridemage. This game goes pretty much the same way, only moreso. If that makes any sense.

Round 2 Aggro Loam: 0-2. I got crushed. (a) I had never played against this before, so wasn't quite sure how to approach it, and (b) it was piloted by an excellent player who was extremely familiar with the build. Note to self: Meddling Mage should always, always, always name Devastating Dreams first. Devastating Dreams fucked my shit up. Game 2 I was almost able to steal a win through active Survival and Emrakul in hand, but I never saw more than 2 mana after geting DD'd twice. I lost to a 20-something/20-something Countryside Crusher. Savage.

Round 3 Reanimator: 2-1, can't remember exactly what happened over the whole match... I played pretty poorly this round, and I lost game 2 because I mulled and then kept a poor hand for some reason, but apart from that I only remember doing some Survival shenanigans with Faerie Macabre and then Gilded Drake targeting his Sphinx of the Steel Wind ftw.

Round 4 New Horizons? 2-1. Some Bant Deck with Knight of the Reliquary and Cold-Eyed Selkie. That shit is terrifying, no lies. I sent that little bastard farming without a second thought. This match played out pretty slowly, actually. We both did a lot of FoWing each other's Noble Hierarchs and pretty much ended up Mind Twisting each other. Anyway neither of us had cards for a lot of game 1, while we both played draw-go until I got Survival online and Iona-locked him out of his removal color. Game 2 he plays turn 2 Wheel of Sun and Moon targeting me. Whoops, I boarded out Pridemage and kept a graveyard-dependent hand! Scoop it up and go to game 3, boarding back in one of my Pridemages. I got Survival down really early and when he plays Wheel on me again, I respond by dumping Squee for Iona, and then Iona for Retainers. Next turn I play Retainers, which gets FoW'd. Awesome, it goes to the bottom of my library! Next turn I do it again and proceed to fuck his shit up. At some point he casts Gilded Drake. Cool, he gets my Iona. On my turn I Survival up my own Gilded Drake and take her back. GG.

Round 5 Dreadstill. I offer ID and my opponent wants to feel it out for a game to see what the other 9-point slots are doing. They all proceed to play their games out, so we draw into Top8.

Top 8. Round 1 - Doomsday. Fuck. 0-2. This deck is brutal, and I should know. I've been testing it for the last few weeks and it's easily the most resilient combo deck in the field. Only problem is I haven't tested against it yet. Whoops. He pushes Doomsday through every piece of hate on the face of the planet on turn 2 both games and I lose to Emrakul. Sad face. Still not sure how/if this deck is beatable with BantSur. Further testing is warranted.

sdematt
05-21-2010, 11:09 PM
It still shows up, but the pricetag and availability on Loyal Retainers keeps the popularity lower than other decks in the DTB. Just wondering, when did everyone here pick up their Loyal Retainer, before or after the spike?

-MAtt

Julian23
05-22-2010, 02:37 AM
Early January for 25 Euros.

@majikal: gratz on your finish. I've already get a little more experience with the Aggro Loam matchup. The games are really intense and game 1 you REALLY REALLY want them not to resolve Devastating Dreams. I used to run Spell Snare which helps a lot here but Meddling Mage/Spellstutter Sprite also come in handy. In my 1/4 match at a GP Trial for Madrid I let him resolve each and every threat just because I knew I would HAVE to counter Devastating Dreams to stand a chance. Worked. Game 2 & 3 you just have to assume they side out the Dreams.

Waikiki
05-22-2010, 03:09 AM
So why would they board it out? Its like the only card we are really scared of.

@Why dont we see top 8's. Actually we do from the handfull of players that actually managed to keep playing the deck after failing with it. This deck is annoyingly expensive for newcomers. Loyal retainers price made me ROFL once again. Also the deck is very skill intensive. The wrong choice often loses you the game. People might disagree but imo thats the reason people do or do not T8.

On a 2nd note. Here is another decklist I've been toying with.

// Lands
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [PT] Forest (2)
1 [PT] Island (3)
1 [PT] Plains (3)
2 [A] Savannah
1 [A] Tundra

// Creatures
4 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers
1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite/Daze/Spell snare/Kira/Meddling mage

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TO] Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 4 [EVE] Cold-Eyed Selkie
SB: 1 [DIS] Trygon Predator

The most interesting afcorse is the sideboard. Where I wanted to try out a new plan instead of fighting most of the hate the plan against merfolk (where imo the survival is too slow) and CB top is to change the engine into cold eye selkie. Draw a tons of cards which they cant keep up. I use SSS in this build cause this can protect the selkie the best.

Julian23
05-22-2010, 07:06 AM
Aggro Loam players usually board out Devastating Dreams against any deck running countermagic. That's what they are taught by others and at least speaking for me thats what has happened in seach sideboarded game so far. To be honest I would strongly consider keeping it if I were the Aggro Loam player that's why I usually hold on to my Forces even in game 2 & 3 although I have strong doubts that's correct.

/edit: Regarding the Loam matchup, here's my match report from the 1/4 of a GP Trial:


1/4 Finals: LONG intense game against RGwb Aggro Loam
G1: He's on the play but keeps a slow hand. His 2nd turn Chalice@1 meets Spell Snare while I drop Goyf on my turn. Turn 3 he grabs LftL with Burning Wish while I eot brainstorm into two addiitional Goyf. I decide it's time to go all-in on my turn dropping them at 4/5. At this point I might only lose to Devastating Dreams to which I kept holding a Force despite my urge to counter Burning Wish. He spends his turn cycling and loaming so my teams takes him down to very low life. On his turn he reveals Dreams with enough cards to to kill my boys and just asks me to reveal Force.

+2 Tormod's Crypt +1 Faerie Macabre +1 Path to Exile +3 Spell Pierce
-3 Rhox War Monk -3 Spellstutter Sprite -1 Swords to Plowshares

G2: This game goes on for AGES. The 1/2 final of the other bracket even finishes before we complete this game. I have an early Goyf but decline to FoW his one in fear of Dreams, Burning Wish etc. So the both green guys keep starring at each other for a long time while he develops his board with Dark Confidant and eventually Knight of the Reliquary. During this game I made the mistake of holding on to my two Forces for much to long beacause one resolved DD would win him the game on the spot. I was WAY to overcacious although I figured he was very likely to leave them in the board after game 1. I manage to buy some time removing two Loams, Worm Harvest (got with Burning Wish) and a countered Chainer's Edict but eventually die to two GIANT Knight of the Reliquary.

G3: This game just goes the way this is meant to be. Drop Survival on turn 2, Vendillion Clique during his draw on turn 3 while Spell Pierce takes care of a second Burning Wish after the first one grabbed Reverrent Silence which killed SotF. Countryside Crusher meets Swords to Plowshares. Two turns later he double blocks Goyf with Goyf+Dark Confidant. I consider not killing the later as he's on just 9 life while I have Clique in play. I decide against it b/c I'm still at comfortable 24 life and am holding double Force + Vendillion Clique with five lands in play. He keeps cycling and loaming but doesn't find an answer so Clique seals the deal.

majikal
05-22-2010, 08:06 AM
Also the deck is very skill intensive. The wrong choice often loses you the game. People might disagree but imo thats the reason people do or do not T8.
This. I've been playing the deck for months now and I still make shit decisions with it that cost me the game sometimes.

However, The deck's strength is that once you know your matchups, you probably won't lose. As long as you've got a bullet, you've got an out. Nothing is really much less than 50-50, which is awesome. I don't think there are very many matches that are autowins, though, so you have to play very well and try not to lose to yourself.

I can honestly say that piloting this deck has made me a better Magic player overall, and that is why I continue to play with it.

Waikiki
05-22-2010, 11:44 AM
I would like to get some feedback on the sideboard idea ;)

Julian23
05-22-2010, 01:49 PM
@Waikiki: I think using Selkie against Merfolk might be good but only if you don't cut Path to Exile from the board because you will still need the additional removal. That said, the Selkie might actually be better than Survival because it does the same as Survival but quicker: provide CA. I'm more sceptical against CB-based decks. In case of the usual CB Bant it might be worth it because their threats match ours while we got protection from StP via Spellstutter Sprite. Not to mention broken openings of Hierarch into turn 2 Selkie drawing 2 additional cards on turn 3. But giving up what makes our lategame better than theirs, namely Survival? I feel at least uncomfortable with that. Especially against strategies that just dominate us without Survival (read: Natural Order).

Oh, and of course one has to sacrifice his graveyardremoval in the process. Generally speaking there are four kinds of sb cards:

- Anti Combo (MM, Spell Pierce, Canoninst, Teeg...)
- Anti Control (Krosan Grip, Kira, Llawan...Selkie?)
- Anti Creature (Path, Jitte, additional RWM...)
- Anti Graveyard (Faerie Macabree, Crypt, Relic, Grunt...)

Looking back at all the sideboards I played so far it was usually only possible to play enough cards in 3 of these 4 categories. So far I would recommend this for an unknown meta:

(playing 3 SSS and 3 Daze maindeck...giving Daze a try right now)

3x Pierce
1x Canonist
3x Grip
1x Kira
1x Llawan
3x Path
3x Faerie Macabre

Of course one will rarely play in an unknown meta. For example, when I play in southern Germany I'd definitly run the 4th Krosan Grip instead of a Faerie because Dreadstill is #1 DtB over here. I'd really like to try the Selkies, maybe I'll just cut down on 1 Grip (going back to 3) and 2 Faeries to try 3 Selkies. Still, I have doubts about boarding out Survival here, but I guess one can easily replace 3 Daze against CB.

By the way, did I mention why Ethersworn Canonist is good in matchups where you assume the control role? Against storm combo it's quite obvious but especially against Reanimator, dropping Canonist stops them from using Force of Will to back up their combo while you can easily just Force/Spellstutter their Reanimate/Exhume.

Waikiki
05-22-2010, 02:50 PM
Yes I still run3 path to exile in the sideboard. What we could do vs the bant top decks is not to remove survival but to remove the Rhox war monks. Life gain isn't that important as in the aggro matchup. We can match their creatures and our late game becomes stronger and we gain more CA.

Pellenik
05-22-2010, 03:46 PM
Hi all.

Just to introduce myself, I've been a long-time lurker of this thread so it's kind of nice to finally post something. I've been playing survivaldecks, mainly RGBSA, FEB and some BAnt Sur for the last 3-4 years until Iona was released and I switched over to Bant Sur full time.

@ danielcrocker: I've won two tournaments in Sweden and Denmark the last -2 months playing bant sur, one with 35 and the other with 25 players. The fact that we don't hear or read about a certain deck t8:ing is not the same thing as the deck not doing so.

@ Waikiki: I actually like the Selkie plan i theory but havn't had a chance to test it out yet. Have you tried it out in testing yet? A consideration on my behalf is that the CB decks in my area are very seldom straight bant. I see alot more variants of "supreme blue", some with NO, some without.. But almost all of them play Firespout and against that strategy Selkie seems strictly worse than RWM. You don't have that problem in your area?

Also, to be frank, latley I havn't had any real problem with Merfolk, which was always my (our) worst match-up. Might have been lucky the last two months but I've lost 1 out of 6 matches if I recall correctly, a few of them being very capable players. I recon I lost more games to them earlier on behalf of playing to restrictive, trying to be smart and play around their disruption which I have since stopped. Thay acctually have very little permission and they can't really handle Goyf or RWM once it hits the table.

Regards

majikal
05-22-2010, 03:52 PM
Also, to be frank, latley I havn't had any real problem with Merfolk, which was always my (our) worst match-up. Might have been lucky the last two months but I've lost 1 out of 6 matches if I recall correctly, a few of them being very capable players. I recon I lost more games to them earlier on behalf of playing to restrictive, trying to be smart and play around their disruption which I have since stopped. Thay acctually have very little permission and they can't really handle Goyf or RWM once it hits the table.
This. Mefolk used to be my #1 worst matchup, but somewhere along the way I figured out how to play against it and I haven't lost to it since. I think that's more a testament to the versatility of this deck than anything changing with Merfolk, though.

Also, I think a lot of the matchup hinges on forcing them to use up their disruption rather than playing around it. Just go ball-out and get in counter wars with them, etc, and then drop a Goyf or War Monk after you're sure they've blown their load.


Speaking of learning how to play against things - has anyone had any testing against the new Doomsday builds that pack Shelldock and Emrakul? This seems almost unwinnable. Like not even FoW and hatebears stop it. It's crazy.

Waikiki
05-22-2010, 04:42 PM
I beat merfolk alot but I also get beaten alot by it. My only 3 losses in madrid where all due to merfolk. Where other tournaments I beaten 3 merfolk players and go straight to a T4 split.

If your meta has more supreme blue then bant counter top I'd suggest sticking Meddling mage maindeck over SSS. Where imo Selkie is still a bigger threat then RWM.

The selkie plan is pure theoretical. I came up with it this weekend and have not been able to test it out in a tournament so far.

Pellenik
05-22-2010, 05:45 PM
@ Majikal: I've had the same experiance, keeping a threatintensive hand and just keep droping threats on to the table works well enough. I also board out the survivalpackage for paths, Llawan, jitte and krosan. Also, I'd like to thank you for the Emrakul sideboard plan, didn't see that one myself but it's absolutely fantastic.

I havn't even seen any lists for this "doomsday" deck youre writing about, I get the general idea and it seems hard to face. I gueass you don't run gilded drake in your board. I guess 1-off gilded drake would be far from enough though. Of the top of my head it seems we must go for their cantrips first. Given that they use brainstorms and ponder etc to set up their shelldock isles. If you have a list for referance Id be glad to take a look at it, a link perhaps..?

@ Waikiki: Actually I do run MM over SSS, havn't used them for a while. But it obv dependent of the meta I'm expecting, had a bit more combo and dredge here lately and then I tend to prefer MM. I agree that it's more powerful, absolutely, guess I'm a bit put of by it being more vanurable. We play weekly tournaments here so I'll be sure to test it out this tuesday. I've played them a bit in Selkie Strike in vintage but never in legacy, been wanting to for a while now though :)

whienot
05-22-2010, 08:03 PM
Pellenik, they Doomsday into Shelldock Isle, Emrakul, and whatever else they need for the win. Gilded Drake will likely do nothing. Shelldock lets them cast Emrakul without paying it's mana cost, so they'll get the time walk (and he's uncounterable). You'll need to be able to sacrifice 6 permanents, then produce the 1:u: to cast the drake.

majikal
05-23-2010, 01:34 AM
Went 5-0-1 for first place in a smallish local tournament tonight. Selkie seemed awesome when it actually hit play. It was actually extremely relevant in matches outside of blue decks, namely Stax. The card advantage is amazing! I think I want at least 3 in the sideboard, if not the full set. I'm not sure what I would cut though. Here's my current sideboard:

4x Spell Pierce
3x Faerie Macabre
2x Path to Exile
2x Cold-Eyed Selkie
1x Gilded Drake
1x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1x Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Anyway, here's the breakdown:

Round 1 - Mark playing my Doomsday list. Yikes! I had hoped this wouldn't happen. He destroys me game one through a FoW and a Meddling Mage. I didn't even stand a chance. Game 2 is better, as I see a Karakas in my opening grip along with a bunch of Meddling Mages. No countermagic in sight, but I have an out to Emrakul in hand that can't be Duressed away so I keep. Good call. He goes straight for the throat and Karakas gets there. G3 I get a lot of Spell Pierces and Meddling Mages and just shut down his tutors while countering Doomsdays. I think I've got this one figured out now. I just need more practice to be sure.

2-1, 2-1

Round 2 - Zach playing UW Tempo/Ninja thing. Normally he ruins me with Mother of Runes and Spellstutter Sprites, but game 1 he mulls to five and gets stuck on one land while I get a balls-to-the-wall aggro hand. He scoops and we go to sideboards. I bring in Selkies, more removal, and Kira, siding out Rhox War Monk because they're a little mana intensive, and I really don't need the life against this deck. Good call, apparently. He actually has a really good hand this game, but I draw removal for his Mothers, and a double-exalted Kira goes to town while his Mistblade Shinobi sadly watches. He finally gets Mother of Runes active and starts blocking with Spellstutter Sprite, seemingly stabilizing at 2 life, but I draw Cold-Eyed Selkie ftw.

2-0, 4-1

Round 3 - Jose playing Stax. He plays turn 1 Wasteland like a pro, so I fetch a basic and play Noble Hierarch. On his turn he plays Chalice for 1, and I look down at my now-useless hand full of Brainstorms and Ponder. Oh well, I start beating him down with Noble Hierarch, while he keeps drawing land and the wrong lock pieces. I pretend to be mana screwed and finally play my third land a few turns into the game, hoping to bait an Armageddon. He does, and I drop one of my sandbagged lands and play Survival, and very shortly after that I ruin him with Iona on white. G2 was very similar, only with more Spell Pierce and Selkie action.

2-0, 6-1

Round 4 - Shane playing Burn. Turn 3 Iona both games. Game, set, match.

2-0, 8-1

Top 4, Round 1 - Justin with Belcher. I mull into FoW, Rhox War Monk, Survival, two lands and Meddling mage. Nice hand! I play Misty Rainforest and pass the turn. He plays Lotus Petal so he doesn't have to discard and passes back to me. I drop Meddling Mage naming Empty the Warrens, and then I show him FoW and he scoops. Game 2 I mull to five and see bullshit. I am quite confident that I am going to lose, and he goes off turn one with Belcher. But to my great pleasure the second card he reveals is Taiga! Ouch, I'm at 18. I play Noble Hierarch and proceed to beat him to death with an exalted Tarmogoyf after blowing up his Belcher with a Pridemage. To be fair, this guy has the worst luck playing any kind of combo deck against me. He once whiffed on Ad Nauseam against me while he was at 20 life, literally finding zero mana sources and killing himself with 2-drops and the second Ad Nauseam.

2-0, 10-1

Top 4, Round 2 - Zach with Ninjas again. We draw and split the prize.

10-1-1

Kuma
05-24-2010, 12:23 PM
Speaking of learning how to play against things - has anyone had any testing against the new Doomsday builds that pack Shelldock and Emrakul? This seems almost unwinnable. Like not even FoW and hatebears stop it. It's crazy.

I've only tested game one, but it's about 10/90 in their favor.

majikal
05-24-2010, 05:29 PM
I've only tested game one, but it's about 10/90 in their favor.
Yeah, Game 1 seems almost like an auto-loss. :\

Games 2 and 3 are not quite as bad becaue you can bring in more hate. It's still heavily in their favor, however, and you have to make sure your hand contains at least 2 counterspells. If you can get Meddling Mage on Mystical Tutor, things get infinitely easier.

The problem that I'm seeing, though, is that the hate that is good against the Storm win is useless against the Shelldock win, and vice versa, so you just need to go permission-heavy and leave out things like Ethersworn Canonist.

Waikiki
05-25-2010, 01:15 AM
Exactly what list are we talking about? Seems to be that MM on Doomsday should be good aswell.

luckme10
05-25-2010, 02:19 AM
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=242014 Doomsday deck primer.

chokin
05-25-2010, 07:14 AM
Exactly what list are we talking about? Seems to be that MM on Doomsday should be good aswell.

MM on DD seems pretty good. Then the deck looks a little like ANT without Ad Nauseum+Infernal Tutor, making it a little easier to disrupt despite them having FoW.

majikal
05-25-2010, 08:15 AM
Exactly what list are we talking about? Seems to be that MM on Doomsday should be good aswell.
Meddling Mage on Doomsday is decent, but it doesn't stop them from tutoring up a bounce spell and going off anyway. That has been the case every time I've named Doomsday. If you name M. Tutor, you keep them from getting both more win conditions and removal for your hate. So you can sandbag some Spell Pierces and FoW and just beat them down with Meddling Mage. Also it's a good choice to keep them from just storming ftw, since they can't tutor for whatever piece they may need to go off.

Julian23
05-25-2010, 09:26 AM
To get this straight in the first place: what's the fundamental turn of that deck regarding the Emrakul as well as the storm combo win? Depending on that Meddling Mage + Spellstutter Sprite backup for any kind of bounce/tutor might cut it.

Lego
05-25-2010, 09:48 AM
To get this straight in the first place: what's the fundamental turn of that deck regarding the Emrakul as well as the storm combo win? Depending on that Meddling Mage + Spellstutter Sprite backup for any kind of bounce/tutor might cut it.

The deck hopes to cast Doomsday on turn 1 or 2 into Shelldock on the following turn, Emrakul the turn after. It can also Doomsday on turns 2-4 and storm off (or technically turn one, but it's rare), only requiring 1BBBU to manage that.

MM on Doomsday still leaves Mystical/LDV into Show and Tell + Emrakul, so if you drop that MM on Doomsday, you need to have an Emrakul answer in hand (or survivalable)

Jak
05-25-2010, 10:03 AM
The deck hopes to cast Doomsday on turn 1 or 2 into Shelldock on the following turn, Emrakul the turn after. It can also Doomsday on turns 2-4 and storm off (or technically turn one, but it's rare), only requiring 1BBBU to manage that.

MM on Doomsday still leaves Mystical/LDV into Show and Tell + Emrakul, so if you drop that MM on Doomsday, you need to have an Emrakul answer in hand (or survivalable)

Gilded Drake is a great answer. So is just more counters (Daze and Spell Pierce). I've never played the MU, so I don't want to call it either way, but it doesn't look too difficult. Maybe more than one Gilded Drake is the best option right now with all of the Reanimator and large creature frenzy.

majikal
05-25-2010, 10:32 AM
Gilded Drake is a great answer. So is just more counters (Daze and Spell Pierce). I've never played the MU, so I don't want to call it either way, but it doesn't look too difficult. Maybe more than one Gilded Drake is the best option right now with all of the Reanimator and large creature frenzy.
Gilded Drake doesn't work, because they get the Time Walk when they flip Emrakul with Shelldock. You never get a chance to cast it unless you have >6 permanents in play. Even then, they can build a pile that kills you the turn they attack with Emrakul, so it's kind of a moot point. :\

I still feel like attacking their tutors is the best way to go.

Here's the list I lost to on Wednesday, piloted by pulpfiction:

4 Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Doomsday
2 Thoughtseize
2 Infernal Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Wipe Away
1 Meditate
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Cabal Ritual
1 Emrakul

4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical island
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
2 Island
1 Shelldock

Sideboard

3 Pithing Needle
2 Infernal Tutor
2 Krosan Grip
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Echoing Truth
1 Reverent Silence
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Sadistic Sacrament

Jak
05-25-2010, 01:18 PM
Gilded Drake doesn't work, because they get the Time Walk when they flip Emrakul with Shelldock. You never get a chance to cast it unless you have >6 permanents in play. Even then, they can build a pile that kills you the turn they attack with Emrakul, so it's kind of a moot point. :\

Damn, that is true. I forgot those lands actually let you cast the card.


4 Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Doomsday
2 Thoughtseize
2 Infernal Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Wipe Away
1 Meditate
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Cabal Ritual
1 Emrakul

4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical island
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
2 Island
1 Shelldock

Sideboard

3 Pithing Needle
2 Infernal Tutor
2 Krosan Grip
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Echoing Truth
1 Reverent Silence
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Sadistic Sacrament

Wow that looks pretty amazing. The first list I looked at didn't look this good at all.

Anyway, I think Needles could come in handy in the sideboard. Get one of them down on Isle and then you can focus on beating the Storm engine. Still that looks tough.

Lego
05-25-2010, 03:21 PM
Anyway, I think Needles could come in handy in the sideboard. Get one of them down on Isle and then you can focus on beating the Storm engine. Still that looks tough.

This version is much more combo-focused, and lacks the S&T out. Normally, Needle on Isle loses to Show and Tell. It also loses to a Doomsday stack with any bounce spells in it.

Jak
05-25-2010, 04:34 PM
This version is much more combo-focused, and lacks the S&T out. Normally, Needle on Isle loses to Show and Tell. It also loses to a Doomsday stack with any bounce spells in it.

So I was basically out of the loop on the deck and have been reading the Salvation thread. It looks like they have 3 ways to win. Isle-->Emrakul, Show and Tell-->Emrakul, and then Storm. Doomsday is necessary for two of these. Hmm. It does look like stopping Doomsday is key but so is their setup. No Top, no Mystical, no LDV, etc, like majikal was saying.

I dunno. I want to test this.

TheD4edalus
05-28-2010, 06:34 PM
I have the pleasure of trying out that match-up soon, so I'll let you all know how it pans out. Should be sometime next week, when I have a new person to playtest with, who has played Shelldrazi where we play Legacy...

I just got the final cards for Bant Survival, and I'm excited to actually start playing it in tournaments.

I just can't decide on a few final slots..

But I'll go ahead and post my decklist, and maybe you all can help me out.

Also, if someone tells me how to tag, then I'll gladly edit my post to tag the cards. But, anyways, here goes..


Lands
-
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas

Noncreature
-
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Ponder

Creature
-
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Rhox War Monk
3 Spellstutter Sprite (Really pretty altered art ones. :3)
2 Qasali Pridmage
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria


Um, sideboard isn't completely put together yet, but it obviously includes Firespout. It will also for sure include Genesis (for the longer matches), Meddling Mages, a Gilded Drake, a Llawan..possibly a Cold Eyed Selkie. I've been thinkin' about that one before I was even graced with this thread, so I'm glad other people have said it, because normally when I think of something, and no one else does, it's just a bad idea. ;D

Also, I've been thinking about Submerges for the sideboard.

Anyways, comments would be appreciated.

P.S - the maindecked Kira/Canonist are meta-game choices. Oh, and, also, I just started playing with SSS instead of Spell Snare yesterday while playtesting.

P.S.S heavy mana denial makes me cry. :(

1mpulse
05-29-2010, 01:00 AM
Um, sideboard isn't completely put together yet, but it obviously includes Firespout. It will also for sure include Genesis (for the longer matches), Meddling Mages, a Gilded Drake, a Llawan..possibly a Cold Eyed Selkie. I've been thinkin' about that one before I was even graced with this thread, so I'm glad other people have said it, because normally when I think of something, and no one else does, it's just a bad idea. ;D

Also, I've been thinking about Submerges for the sideboard.

Anyways, comments would be appreciated.

P.S - the maindecked Kira/Canonist are meta-game choices. Oh, and, also, I just started playing with SSS instead of Spell Snare yesterday while playtesting.

P.S.S heavy mana denial makes me cry. :(

For your sideboard, Canonist > MM. It's easier to cast, as well as just better against combo, although, maybe your not running it for combo...

Can't wait to test against it though.

TheD4edalus
05-29-2010, 02:27 AM
Meddling Mage is for moar than just combo, dur. It can shut down things like..Loam.

Oh, and Goryo's Vengeance. ;D

SDT, etc.

Recurring Nightmare..though you can bet Ionee will always be naming black.

sdematt
05-29-2010, 02:36 AM
So I ended up playing this for the local Legacy tournament, and did reasonably alright with it (considering I get little to no practice).

But, a note to the above, why would you run Firespout? In the games that it'll matter (Gobbos, Merfolk) they'll waste your Red source. That's the only reason I'd be hesitant to run it.

I was running:

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
2 Savannah
4 Tropical Island
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Karakas

1 Rafiq
1 Wonder
1 Squee
1 Trygon Predator
4 Rhox War Monk
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Vendillion Clique
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Meddling Mage

4 Survival
4 Swords
4 Brainstorm
4 Force
2 Ponder

Board:
3 Hydroblast
3 Spell Pierce
3 Path
1 Gilded Drake
1 Kira
1 Llawan
3 Faerie Macabre

Round 1: Black Green Dark Depths

Game one goes extremely well. I curve into Noble Heirarch, War Monk, Rafiq. He does Hymn me, but hits crap. He hits Dark Depths and Hexmage, I rub my forehead and pretend to have no outs. I attack with the look of defeat on my face, then drop Karakas. He scoops.

Board in: 3 Path, 3 Pierce, 1 Gilded Drake. Out: 2 Rhox, 2 Meddling Mage, other crap.

He gets combo on turn 4. I have Goyf onboard, but he living wishes for Gatekeeper. He passes turn. I ponder into nothing, crack a fetch, and Brainstorm into nothing. No Swords, Path, Karakas, etc. I scoop.

Game 3, I land Noble Heirarch into Goyf. He responds with a Goyf, I drop Karakas and pass. He drops Deed. I play into Deed, wanting him to blow it, as I have gas in hand. He blows Deed for 2 and takes my War Monk, then Hymns after to take the rest. Playing into Deed lost me the game. Frick.

Round 2: Dragon Stompy
Game 1, I fetched for basics and curved into a Meddling Mage on Blood Moon, with one of each basic in play. I curve into Rafiq and swing for 12 with a Clique. He plays Magus of the Moon and Double Pit dragon. I had no counters and no Swords. He flies around me and gets there.

Board in: 3 Pierce,3 Hydroblast, 3 Path. Out: Rhox War Monk, Clique, randoms.

Game 2, I open with a fetch and a plains, Meddling mage, and a Force with a Rhox War Monk. Probably not the best to keep, but I did. Basically, he lands a second Moon after Pyroblasting my Meddling Mage. I force the first Moon, but a second one comes out. I'm colourscrewed and need green to have won. I had Goyf + Hierarch in hand. I topdecked like a champ in terms of Path and Swords, but just coun't get all the way. He landed Arc-Slogger and took me to one. I Path is, but I neglect to count the card in his deck, and how many sloggers he has left. I hit a Hydroblast, nuke his Blood Moon, and lay a War Monk. Biggest mistake. I should've taken careful note that I didn't need the Life gain, just a blocker against his lone Simian Spirit Guide. He topdecks Pyroblasts and swings for lethal.

Well, pretty pissed at this point, and I hear the pairings: I'm playing against Reanimator. Oh joy...

Game 1, He lands a 3rd Turn Iona after Thoughtseizing me and fighting a counter-war. He names white, and I cringe. I brainstorm into Karakas and win the game.

Board in: Faerie Macabre, Llawan, Gilded Drake, Spell Pierce. Out: Many of my creatures and most of the the Survival package.

I'm assuming he boards Needle in, and I keep a nice looking hand with Macabre and multiple counters. He entombs, I counter, he dazes, I cry. He entombs Inkwell, which he thinks I have no outs to. He attempts to Reanimate, I Macabre. I drop Goyf and pass. He drops Sea and passes. He literally does nothing for a few turns, and I hit my single Survival left. I get a Meddling Mage, naming Entomb. He Mysticals for Careful Study, I tutor a blue creature to pitch to force. He scoops and drops. Poor guy was really dead to anything I did. We talked about the deck, and we noted it does have retarded draws at times, but it can't play the long game, and he was cold to all of my hate. I offered my condolences, he handed my deck back to me (he borrowed it).

Round 4 was a buy, so I went and got food and watched my friends play.

All in all, I was happy with my results. Blood Moon isn't a terrible matchup, but a key play mistake I'm sure cost me that game. Not sure if I could've won another game, but it would've helped.

Again, if I hadn't played into Deed, It would've been a 3 for 2 Deed instead of 3 for 1. Not sure if I could have won that, but apparently after the gas he had, if I would've hit Karakas/Swords/Path/Drake, he said after the tournament that all he had coming up was nothing.

All in all, I love the deck, but I feel Rafiq and Trygon in my list could be Loyal Retainers and Iona. I'm just not sure if I want to invest in a $120 uncommon at this point.

Also, are any of you going to SCG Seattle? If so, maybe I'll see some of you there :D

-Matt

1mpulse
05-29-2010, 02:49 AM
Canonist is also good against Loam...
Hey, if they want to cast LftL as their one spell, fine by me.

Waikiki
05-29-2010, 03:39 AM
Thats probably the only thing they do anyways as they just draw a ton of cards. I'd rather have MM, but I would certainly run Canonist sb against ant or enchantress.

TheD4edalus
05-29-2010, 11:34 AM
But, a note to the above, why would you run Firespout? In the games that it'll matter (Gobbos, Merfolk) they'll waste your Red source. That's the only reason I'd be hesitant to run it.



I don't fetch the red source until I have too.

Waikiki
05-29-2010, 11:47 AM
SO imagine opening a hand vs merfolk with taiga + fetch and no cantrip or hierach. but survival goyf pridemage. Would you keep?

TheD4edalus
05-29-2010, 12:04 PM
SO imagine opening a hand vs merfolk with taiga + fetch and no cantrip or hierach. but survival goyf pridemage. Would you keep?

Hummmm. I have been known to take chances. That looks like something I'd keep, merely because I'd throw the Goyf under their force/daze, then attempt to play the pridemage next turn to kill off their Vial before anything pertinent comes into play. :)

Unless of course I'm playing against a build with stifles, then I might cry. But then again, you only named five cards. Though the other cards would probably be like..STP and Ionee - in other words, useless because that fetch is definitely going for a forest. :o

Waikiki
05-29-2010, 05:27 PM
I think u start crying the minute they kill the taiga with waste and they dont care about your 1/2 goyf.

TheD4edalus
05-30-2010, 03:11 PM
Anyways. Minor flaming aside, I played a small tourney yesterday, and only played against Enchantress (go figure)...that matchup is kinda tough without Wonder, but I still dealt. I ended up getting a foil Meddling Mage out of it. :)

Waikiki
05-30-2010, 03:19 PM
Hmm I played against 2 enchantress players during GP madrid I found it to be a bye matchup. I didn't play wonder which doesnt even matter. I dont see why. Just drop iona on white and win.

TheD4edalus
05-30-2010, 03:36 PM
Indeed. But, see, the problem is, they are really really good at dragging the game out. Plus, first game of the first round, I'm playing against my friend, who has one maindecked choke.

And of course, it came out second turn. Of course, if It hadn't, game would've been over in my next turn.

Iona can't magically fly through Angels. Especially not if they have 3 or more.

majikal
05-30-2010, 08:28 PM
Indeed. But, see, the problem is, they are really really good at dragging the game out. Plus, first game of the first round, I'm playing against my friend, who has one maindecked choke.

And of course, it came out second turn. Of course, if It hadn't, game would've been over in my next turn.

Iona can't magically fly through Angels. Especially not if they have 3 or more.

That's why you bring in Emrakul. Once you've got Iona on White, you can dump Emrakul in your graveyard to shuffle Retainers back in and go off again. They have literally no outs at that point, since even if they manage to kill Emrakul, he shuffles Retainers back into your library again and you can just bring him right back. Eventually, Annihilator 6 will even get around Solitary Confinement.

JRR
05-30-2010, 10:36 PM
I've found enchantress to be a silly easy matchup... I mean they really don't have that many threats. It doesn't matter how many cards they draw if you save your pridemages/counters for the 2-3 threats. The worst case scenario is running into an enchantress deck running bloodmoon main and not being ready for it.

TheD4edalus
05-31-2010, 07:09 PM
I know dats' right!

I was gonna have Emrakul sideboard, but my friend traded his, and I'm trying to get one. :(

Enchantress is mainly annoying. Double Sterling Grove kinda hurts too. :P

Julian23
05-31-2010, 07:59 PM
Even with double grove, Iona on white just kills them. Just save one FoW for a potential copy of Words of War. They're only out is resolving Ground Seal with double grove protection before Iona enters the scene.

/edit: However, they might be playing Lignify, which they should. They might also have maindeck Karakas so it all depends on their build I guess as this are still rather uncommon choices.

TheD4edalus
06-01-2010, 04:02 AM
Yes, Lignify does exist in both decks I played, though one quickly scooped to Iona on white. Words of War was in one, but not the other.

I have never seen any Crackass in any Enchantress I've played. But, anyways, enough about the subject. I swear, I'll never bring up Enchantress again, because then the thread gets flooded with comments.

Edit. P.S.

I just read your signature, and is Land Tax being promo'd? :o

majikal
06-04-2010, 11:40 PM
What do we think of Vengevine out of the SB for the Counterbalance matchup?

chokin
06-05-2010, 12:38 AM
What do we think of Vengevine out of the SB for the Counterbalance matchup?

Vengevine :/

It's kind of interesting to have these "free" extra creatures come out, but it's pretty dependent on Survival to be good and it's a lot of dancing imo.

majikal
06-05-2010, 02:01 AM
It's kind of interesting to have these "free" extra creatures come out, but it's pretty dependent on Survival to be good and it's a lot of dancing imo.
That's pretty much how I feel about it, but it does mess up Counterbalance decks pretty much all by itself. The only problem is Pithing Needle on SotF just completely shuts that plan down, so you have to get an active Survival to do anything with it. So is the risk worth the reward?

Or is Cold-Eyed Selkie just a better plan overall?

I'll do some testing when I have a chance, but it seems like it's at least worth looking into.

Waikiki
06-05-2010, 03:32 AM
vengevine does get stronger the more mana u get into play. Vengevine unfortunately doesn't beat goyf :(

chokin
06-06-2010, 12:05 AM
Waikiki brings up a couple points that I didn't even think about. But yeah, the more you invest, the better they get, but it's risky, clunky and I'd never want to hard cast one or have it stuck in my hand.

I have yet to play with Selkie, but I know how much it annoys me when Merfolk islandwalk me, so I would imagine that an exalted Selkie could wreck. With Hierarch ramping mana and the 3cc cost (awkward for CB decks usually), I could see Selkie being the best attacker on your end of the board with Goyf and RWM locking up the ground.

I could also see CB players bringing in some form of grave hate against us to prevent LRIona, so I would imagine increasing graveyard dependency as being bad to some degree. But maybe I'm misjudging, because we don't have much dependency (no Genesis, Anger, or other traditional antics) so maybe to some CB players, it would be like Crypt for Iona and Squee. But I'm not sure. I'd just hate to see all of that investment get flushed when you had the option of just going Selkie who doesn't rely on anything but itself and takes advantage of exalted and the fact that the opponent is playing islands.

Waikiki
06-06-2010, 02:33 AM
So far testing with selkie has been awesome. They make enchantment hate a little more dead. Selkie draws ton of cards if he doesn't get blown away. I use the sprite build to prevent this from happening.

@grave hate. During the GP I got all sorts of grave hate against me and I was always happing to see those cards. Survival can easily play around it and its more useless slots for them.

majikal
06-06-2010, 07:10 PM
Just went undefeated in the $1k event in GA today. Selkie was a rock star. I'm too tired to give a detailed breakdown but here's what I played against:

Round 1 ANT - 2-0.

Round 2 UW Tempo/Ninjas - 2-0. Selkie got there hard.

Round 3 Goblins - 2-0.

Round 4 - Draw

Round 5 - Draw

Top 8 split the $1100 and played for points.

Round 1 ANT - 2-1. My friend Derrick playing my ANT build. He actually scooped to me before the match started and we just played it out for fun.

Round 2 Bant Aggro - 2-0. Selkie gets there again.

Round 3 Merfolk 2-0. Goyfs, Monks, and Meddling Mages all in his mouth.

Loxodon Baileyarch
06-06-2010, 07:20 PM
Just went undefeated in the $1k event in GA today. Selkie was a rock star. I'm too tired to give a detailed breakdown but here's what I played against:

Round 1 ANT - 2-0.

Round 2 UW Tempo/Ninjas - 2-0. Selkie got there hard.

Round 3 Goblins - 2-0.

Round 4 - Draw

Round 5 - Draw

Top 8 split the $1100 and played for points.

Round 1 ANT - 2-1. My friend Derrick playing my ANT build. He actually scooped to me before the match started and we just played it out for fun.

Round 2 Bant Aggro - 2-0. Selkie gets there again.

Round 3 Merfolk 2-0. Goyfs, Monks, and Meddling Mages all in his mouth.

Oh, so YOU beat Thor. I didn't recognize the name he gave me. Congrats though.

majikal
06-06-2010, 07:40 PM
oh, so you beat thor. I didn't recognize the name he gave me. Congrats though.
where were you? :p

Loxodon Baileyarch
06-06-2010, 10:27 PM
where were you? :p

A 5 page argumentative essay on Walking is where i was. /kills self

Nidd
06-07-2010, 04:27 AM
A 5 page argumentative essay on Walking is where i was. /kills self

Sounds like fun =/

Folks, I've been looking through a lot of Bant Survival related stuff over the last weeks and have looked closely at about 50 lists on deckcheck, goldfished a bit and played the deck on MWS and I must say, I enjoy that deck. Guess it's time for me to buy some of the format staples like Goyf, Force and some more Duals.

I tinkered with a lot of things in this deck, as the deck itself is very flexible, something I really enjoy about it and I came up with a list and I would like you who play that deck a tad longer than me to criticise it.

// Lands
2 [5E] Forest (2)
1 [EUL] Island (3)
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [US] Plains (3)
3 [A] Savannah
4 [B] Tropical Island
1 [B] Tundra
3 [JGC] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
3 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
1 [10E] Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [DIS] Trygon Predator
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [LRW] Ponder
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [EVE] Cold-Eyed Selkie
SB: 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 3 [DDD] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt


I think the SB is fine for an unknown meta, what do you think?
Emrakul is mainly integrated as a matter of anti-GY hate and to put my GY back into my library.