[DTW] Bant Survival

[Waikiki]

If I want to shuffle back some stuff I always use jotun grunt or loaming shaman. They can also annoy the opponent.

@Majikal

Grats! nice to see you liked the selkie they have been pretty awesome for me awell.

Looking forword for a more detailed report + decklist sb strategies If you feel like it. PM could also work tho.

[Nidd]

If I want to shuffle back some stuff I always use jotun grunt or loaming shaman. They can also annoy the opponent.

I see where you're coming from, but isn't the Annihilator ability useful against, let's say, Enchantress?

While this seems cornercase in regards of big tournaments, 1 of our local players plays Enchantress and we often joke around that pretty much every player in Germany has the cards for Enchantress, so it seems like a decent inclusion.
Also, Loaming Shaman is kinda one-shot, Emrakul can keep shuffling stuff back. Isn't that relevant?

[Waikiki]

I haven't ever lost a match against enchantress and I never ever felt I needed a card against it beside iona. Seems like overkill to me.

They can easily O ring emrakul anyways.

[Nidd]

I haven't ever lost a match against enchantress and I never ever felt I needed a card against it beside iona. Seems like overkill to me.

They can easily O ring emrakul anyways.
Okay, sounds logical to me.

Anything else you can say about my list? Is it ok so far?

[Waikiki]

It's pretty nice so far. Just play alot with it and tune it into your own preference. I prefer to run pridemage for the additional exalted effect u get instead of the predator. I run 2 pride 1 predator.

I find myself kicking in with a single faerie with some exalted boosts on it often enough.

I also think u want llawan vs merfolk and progenitus in the side.

[sdematt]

I can wholeheartedly agree with Waikiki on that front: Llawan is a freakin' house. If you can land Llawan, the game is over for Merfolk.

[CorpT]

If I want to shuffle back some stuff I always use jotun grunt or loaming shaman. They can also annoy the opponent.

@Majikal

Grats! nice to see you liked the selkie they have been pretty awesome for me awell.

Looking forword for a more detailed report + decklist sb strategies If you feel like it. PM could also work tho.

I like Loaming Shaman too, but it isn't nearly as impressive against anything that tries to use Show and Tell and/or Eureka. Grunt is a limited effect that requires it to be in play. Emrakul does multiple things:
1) Protects graveyard
2) Provides massive threat via Retainers
3) Provides massive threat via Show and Tell
4) Repeatedly shuffles threats back in

Grunt doesn't do most of these things. Grunt has the upside of being able to shuffle opponent's cards back in, but that's about the only real advantage I can see over Emrakul. Emrakul is a pretty solid SB card against several decks. Recylcing threats vs Counter heavy decks, protecting GY and being a threat vs SnT decks makes it a worth singleton IMO.


Okay, sounds logical to me.

Anything else you can say about my list? Is it ok so far?

I'm not a big fan of Eternal Witness. She's pretty slow. I don't think you need 4x RMW either. And I prefer Pridemage to Predator. I want my kills now and there aren't many decks that require multiple Enchant/Artifact kills to beat. We're testing out Meddling Mage in place of Sprite right now. It's doing pretty well so far.

[Waikiki]

your missing the most important thing.

Grunt does something without survival.

Grunt is actually castable and a nice clock.

Emrakul is just fancy imo.

I haven't ever had a moment where I wished I could shuffle something back while I could just as wel find something new.

[majikal]

your missing the most important thing.

Grunt does something without survival.

Grunt is actually castable and a nice clock.

Emrakul is just fancy imo.

I haven't ever had a moment where I wished I could shuffle something back while I could just as wel find something new.

Grunt is too slow from my own testing. There are lots of times, particularly against decks packing Counterbalance, where I just need to get Iona in play, but my Loyal Retainers gets countered, or Iona gets bounced back to my hand, and Emrakul lets me just go off again the next turn. Also it's really good against Lands, because you gain inevitability even through Maze of Ith and Glacial Chasm.

[markbris]

@ majikal, what list did you play at Chatsworth?

[majikal]

@ majikal, what list did you play at Chatsworth?

4x Noble Hierarch
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Rhox War Monk
3x Meddling Mage
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Loyal Retainers
1x Wonder
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob

4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Force of Will
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder

4x Misty Rainforest
4x Windswept Heath
4x Tropical Island
2x Savannah
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Island
1x Karakas

Sideboard-
3x Spell Pierce
3x Faerie Macabre
3x Cold-Eyed Selkie
2x Path to Exile
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Gilded Drake
1x Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1x Llawan, Cephalid Empress

I've been getting a lot of results with this particular build. The only slot that I'm even the slightest bit iffy about is Wonder. Sometimes I want it to be Trygon Predator or something else. Maybe Sower.

Cold-Eyed Selkie is just awesome in the SB.

Emrakul actually won me a match against ANT. I had played Meddling Mage to slow him down and got an active Survival the next turn, but I had drawn Loyal Retainers and it got Thoughtseized away, so at the end of the turn I got Emrakul and pitched it to get Iona, and on my turn I pitched Iona for Retainers and locked him off of black, with FoW backup for his Mystical Tutor.

I think I sided out Rhox War Monks, Wonder and a couple of StP for Spell Pierce, Cold-Eyed Selkie and Emrakul. Turned out to be pretty good.

[Thor]

Round 3 Merfolk 2-0. Goyfs, Monks, and Meddling Mages all in his mouth.


You forgot llawan, cephalid empress. Thing is the freaking nuts vs Folk.

[Fasbi]

I'm playing Lagacy (on tournaments) for a bit more than a year now and I decided to build my second deck. (My first one was Aggro Loam)
But one of my biggest problems with this deck is (No, not the money for Retainers ^^) that i have no idea which list I should play or which is the "strongest". With Aggro Loam it was quiet easy, but at Bant Survival it's horrible for me. :D

After reading lots of pages, articles and lists about/of the deck I ended up with this:

4x Noble Hierarch
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Rhox War Monk
3x Meddling Mage
3x Qasali Pridemage
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Loyal Retainers
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob

4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Force of Will
3x Spell Snare
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder

4x Misty Rainforest
4x Windswept Heath
4x Tropical Island
2x Savannah
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Island
1x Tundra

Sideboard:
3x Tormod's Crypt
1x Faerie Macabre
3x Path to Exile
1x Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Krosan Grip
1x Genesis
1x Spore Frog

I'm happy with my maindeck at all (on the paper at least :/). Just thinking about switching some Pridemages/War Monks with one or two Cliques.
But the sideboard is horrible. -.-
Up to Llawan it is as I want it (perhabs -1 Crypt -> +1 Faerie). But I have no idea which hate is the best against e.g. combo (especially Reanimator).
Here are some thoughts I made about the other cards in my board:

Gaddock Teeg + Ethersworn Canonist <-> Spell Pierce
Able to find them via Survival, hard to handle, but slow <-> fast + ?
Is "fast" the deciding factor (against combo)?

Krosan Grip + 2/3x Qasali Pridemage
Are there any more cards that can't be handled by Pridemage then Counterbalance and Humility?
I just put them in my board, because the habit to always have Krosan grips in my board.
Are 3 (or 2 if i change one for Clique) Pridemages enough to handle all those artifacts/enchanments?

Genesis (+ Spore Frog)
Genesis is one of those typical utility creatures for Survival of the Fittest in my opinion. It gives me back my beater, Faerie Macabre and alows me to play Spore Frog. Merfolk and Goblins are the main targets for the combo Genesis + Spore Frog.
But I'm not sure whether they deserve the two slots, because with the Survival I need to find them I could go for Llawan or more beater, too.

I'm not having much practice at playing blue decks especially Bant Survival but I'm eager to learn for having at least positive stats at my next tournament. (19.06.)

I'm hoping for some help. :P

(Could happen that my english isn't that perfect but I think you are able to understand it. xD)

[Waikiki]

The problem with bant survival and legacy is that there just isn't any optimal 75 cards. The concept is here and some basics cards aswell but it really doesn't work for each meta. meta's with alot of zoo id rather run spellstutter over mage while in a meta with more control decks meddling mage becomes way stronger. Same for combo.

[sdematt]

I think we agreed that there was a core 45-ish cards that go into the deck. The manabase is pretty much the same, and there's always going to be Survivals, Swords/Path, Forces, Brainstorms, etc. I think the big changes between builds are Iona combo vs. no Combo, Rafiq or no Rafiq, Spellstutter package or more utility, and the sideboard choices. The deck is very versatile, and that's what I like about it. Finally going to get my Loyal Retainers for the deck! Hooray! No hooray on the fact that I could've gotten one in November for $40 but I figured the combo was too cute. Oh well.

-Matt

[Jak]

There is definitely a core structure to the deck. The only variance comes with additional disruption past Force and Swords. Meddling Mage, Spellstutter Sprite, Daze, Spell Pierce/Snare, etc. I think everything else is pretty set with small changes like throwing in an additional utility creature or the numbers on Clique and RWM.

Metagaming is so important in finishing those last few slots because the disruption varies with the matchup A LOT.

[IwillSurvive]

Hey everyone, I am a long time reader of this thread but this will be the first time I am posting. Just want to say, I have been playing the deck for six months now and it is by far the most fun I have had in legacy for a very long time. That being said (and going along with the current talk about meta game slots), I would like some opinions about meta gaming for a very large tournament.

With GP: Columbus coming up pretty soon, I can imagine people are testing and tuning their decks for this event. I really want to know some opinions (Jak, Wakiki, etc) on what you would play in such an open field. I mean, I know exactly what build I would run for my meta based on the decks I know will be there but when attacking a huge field such as a GP, it can be a bit more taxing. I am really just looking for a few seasoned veterans to give me a suggested direction for testing and I will gladly reply with results for all to see.


Thanks :smile:

[Waikiki]

At the moment I'm playing this:

// Lands
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [PT] Forest (2)
1 [PT] Island (3)
1 [PT] Plains (3)
2 [A] Savannah
1 [A] Tundra

// Creatures
4 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers
1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TO] Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 4 [EVE] Cold-Eyed Selkie
SB: 1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
SB: 3 [IN] Dueling Grounds

Sideboard is pure testing.

Mainboard open slots are:

1 sower
1 rafiq
4 Spellstutter
1 RWM

[sdematt]

I'm playing one of two builds, depending on whether or not I'm playing Iona combo.

4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas

4 RWM/3 RWM + 1 Loyal Retainers
3 Meddling Mage
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Trygon Predator/1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Rafiq
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Squee
2 Vendillion Clique
1 Wonder

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Swords
4 Force
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

It seems like a very solid list to me. I prefer not to run the Iona combo as I find I'd just rather get there with beats. It could just be the matchups I'm playing I don't want to be Survival dependent, but still. We'll see though. I'm loving maindeck Meddling Mage. If you know what he's playing, the guy is a freaking house. Plus, he cans wing if need be.

-Matt

[Jak]

Hmm...

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona

I guess this would be the must runs. 19 lands, since Wastelands are so rampant right now (New Horizons, UWT, Tempo Thresh, Faeries, Merfolk, etc) is probably the minimum I would play. It will also make the mana more consistent which is important for tournaments that large.

The last 7 slots are tough. Merfolk, Zoo, Reanimator, CBTop, and ANT will probably be the largest played. Meddling Mage is decent all around (except Zoo), but I would be hesitant to play it in such a large tournament just because it requires a lot more thinking. Sprites look the most appealing and Waikiki is probably right with the 4 maindeck in his list. They are really good against Reanimator and ANT, decent against Zoo and CBTop, and just average against Merfolk.

I don't know if you have used Sprites at all, but they require a lot of practice to end up not being bad and being really effective. Knowing when to leave mana for it, when to just cast it to go beat down, etc is pretty vital into making them work. When I first put them in the deck I had a ton of highs and lows with them, but playing with them a lot made it so they were a lot less clunky and did a lot more for me. Just because it is in your hand, does not mean it needs to be available. If you have other things to do, do them. Their role changes with the matchup. Against combo, you get to two mana and leave it open if Sprite is your only disruption in hand. Against Zoo, play your game. Don't tie up two of your mana every turn to stop a Lightning Bolt or Nacatl. Play your game as if it wasn't in hand against them. Then, it shines later on. Bant Survival can stabilize against Zoo very well, but if you are not casting things you will fall behind. Sprite wins us the late game though and will really shut them down.

Anyway, sorry for the tangent if you already knew that. I would go with 3-4 if I were you. For the last few slots, it can go to a number of things. The 4th RWM, Wonder, Trygon Predator, 3rd Qasali, Ponders, Rafiq, Witness, Meddling Mages. Since Zoo continues to do so well, I think the 4th RWM is a good idea. I also think Wonder is very good. Aggro will be everywhere and Wonder crushes aggro decks. For the last 1-2 slots, I would definitely add a Qasali or Predator. I lean more towards Predator since having 2 Qasali and 1 Predator is more versatile than all Qasali. It varies the cost of the artifact/enchantment destruction, shines in a handful of matches, pitches to Force, evasive, and the CA comes up now and then.

I think the last slot could go for Meddling Mage. Awesome with all the Mirage tutors running around and it can be amazing at stopping game-winning cards like Natural Order, Doomsday, etc.

So...

3 Spellstutter Sprite
1 (more) Rhox War Monk
1 Wonder
1 Trygon Predator
1 Meddling Mage

That's what I would run.

For the sideboard, I really don't know. I haven't been able to test this new Selkie tech yet so I really don't feel comfortable constructing a board. Definitely a Llawan, Sower/Gilded Drake, Faerie Macabre, some Grips, some Spell Pierces, some Crypts, and then some aggro hoser. Waikiki has Dueling Grounds which is probably the best choice. Jitte is also fantastic as well. I'd probably try to focus on beating aggro first. It tends to show up more in larger/longer tournaments more just because it requires less thinking than combo or CounterTop. After that, focus on Reanimator and combo. I wouldn't be too worried about other matchups. A lot of the cards can come in against a variety of matchups which is good and Bant Survival already has an even to good game across the field. CounterTop will obviously be popular but I have never had trouble just going beatdown on them so I usually never overdo it when boarding. Bring in some Grips and maybe, sort of, kind of, possibly bring in Spell Pierces. I have just had success at having more threats than they have threats+answers, so boarding out too many creatures or something ruins that plan. Llawan too is they have NOPro.

Hope this helped! Good luck and make sure you report back how you did.

Edit- Weird. Just looked some more at Waikiki's list and realized we are exactly the same when it comes to the list if you remove what the "open" slots are he has. We are definitely on the same page :).

[IwillSurvive]

Thanks for all the lists everyone. It seems like the spellstutter might be the way to go since the two guys who started the thread agreed without even talking about it, haha. I just finished finals and will be heading home in the next few days to start some extensive testing.

I have been trying this list lately:

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Snare

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Meddling Mage
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona
1 Wonder

Just a few notes about the build I am playing...

Spell Snare: Yes, a little janky, but I have always had great results with this card and haven't wanted to cut it. I will definitely cut it for testing though, just to see if I miss it, but I doubt it will be missed much.

Meddling Mage: Just started using this guy and he is a house. I love the way he is so proactive but I can definitely see how he could be worse in such a large tournament. Gonna have to test with and without to see if I miss him.

Vendilion Clique: I have been very unimpressed with this guy lately but I can imagine it has alot to do with the lack of the sprites. He is just so much better with a faerie friend as back up to get rid of that pesky top-decked StP.

Wonder: Will never cut this guy. WAY too good in too many cases.


@ Jak: I have played with sprites before but only for a short period of time. To be honest, I cut them before I gave them a chance. I felt they were sort of clunky and I never looked back. I will put them in the main for my testing since I really think they would be better for a large field. Also, I love Trigon Predator and I feel that all the points you made is exactly why I will be trying to fit him back in. The varied cost and versitility is invaluable. With the new rise of reanimator, I feel that the need of Gilded Drake is becoming more relevant and that, also, must be tested. I guess what I'm saying is that I agree with you in pretty much all respects. Thank you guys for a bit of direction for my upcoming testing and I will be sure to post the results for everyone's benefit.

Oh yeah, the sideboard. Don't really want to think about that too much right now since its a work in progress. Still have to figure out if Selkie is good enough but I have about the same ideas as everyone else (Grip, Faerie Macabre, Spell Pierce, etc).

[Waikiki]

Dont get me wrong. I dont considder running the spellstutters is the way to go. If my meta changes so does the deck. Perhaps Im running the meddling mages tomorrow. The deck is just so adaptive. Just the core is something id suggest. Rest is meta dependant.

[IwillSurvive]

And that right there is my question. I understand that you must adapt to the meta with this deck and, in fact, that is it's greatest strength. What I am asking is not what you are playing right now in your meta or what you think you might play tomorrow, but what would you play in a huge tournament such as a GP. Since you may be facing such a wide variety of decks and be playing in game after game, I wanted to know what list you would feel confident with in order to have a chance to win every matchup. I am trying to think of the deck in terms of a very large field with a variety of different decks and find what list is best suited for this situation.

[Waikiki]

I'd probably play something very close to my gp madrid list.

[Black Mass]

@Iwillsurvive:

Don't go off on others to say what you have to play, they merely give suggestions, all players on this forum have different experiences with the deck an so will you.
The most important thing about the adaptation of the deck is the adaptation to your own playstyle, meta comes second in my opinion.
Play both options first and see how you like it, you might be impressed by both, like me, and find a way to play them both.

[Waikiki]

And also most important I would never play deck in a big event if im not familiar with it. No matter how good it is. If I have more experience with lets say UW tempo ill play that. Only play bant survival if u really got the feeling yet.

[majikal]

And also most important I would never play deck in a big event if im not familiar with it. No matter how good it is. If I have more experience with lets say UW tempo ill play that. Only play bant survival if u really got the feeling yet.
This. It doesn't matter how good a deck is - if you're not familiar with it, you will shit your pants and go home dissatisfied. I've been playing this deck for close to a year now, and it took me three or four months to get to the point where I was comfortable enough with it to take it to events. At that point, however, I started winning with it more than with any other deck I've ever played, and I've gained almost enough points with it to not even have to worry about grinding for byes at GPTs. This deck is the real deal, but you need to know it inside and out to do anything with it.

[Fasbi]

I have a questions to those who are playing the lists without Spell Snare (slots would be filled in with another "win option" like Wonder or Rafiq, a second Clique and a Predator for example):
Is the more "aggressive" plan which abuses Survival a bit more "better" than the list with Snares which gives you the ability to counter Goyfs, Bobs, PoPs,... with ease?
Or is it that even that the playstyle/meta should make the decision?

You are helping me a lot by writing all those things. Thanks! :P

I will go on my first tournament with BantSur in a week. <3
This deck is so much fun to play! :)

[kirtash]

what do you think is the best sideboard with this metagame? I have a tournment on Sunday and I need help please

Zoo 3
Elves 1
Stax 2
Survival 2
Affinity 1
ANT 1
Countertop 1
Dark Depths 2
Emrakul's Attack 1
Goblins 1
Dredge 2
Lands 1
Mystic Control 1

[practical joke]

somethign with sower of temptation at least.

there's nothing more fun than taking over their beatsticks ( works for at least survival, affinity, zoo, emrakul and definately dark depths)

[kkoie]

I've been working on this deck for a couple of months now, and have tweaked it for my local metagame to accomidate heavy aggrodecks like goblins (there is one every week) and some annoying combo decks like dredge and belcher. However I am concerned that when I take this deck to a bigger venue like Columbus, where I am certain there is going to be a lot of tempo decks, which I have struggled against in the past (though I have not played against it recently). I wonder if anyone has thoughts on the following list on how it might play against tempo decks and what suggested changes they might have.


Onto the list:

4 Noble H.
3 Meddling Mage
2 Q. Pridemage
4 T-Goyf
1 Kira
1 Loyal Retainers
3 Rhox Warmonk
1 Squee
1 Trygon P.
1 Rafiq
1 Wonder
1 Iona
4 Bstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Ponder
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Karakas
1 Plains.

Sideboard
3 Dueling Grounds (I know this card is not very popular, but it has done me well against decks like goblins, dredge, and merfolk)
2 Krosan Grip
3 Spell Pierce
1 Gilded Drake
3 Faerie Macabre (I upped these to three due to dredge causing me pain and reanimator, but I wonder if I shouldn't go down to 1 and include 2 t.crypts)
2 Gattock Teeg
1 Llanawan, Celph. Emperess

[Fasbi]

Is it really needed to play 2 more win options (Wonder, Rafiq) next to Iona+Retainer?

If you want to take Gaddock Teeg against combo a split of Gaddock Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist would be better i think since it's really hard to handle them if you can land them both.

I have no experience with Dueling Ground but it's just an alternative to Path to Exile which would be in that slot.

In the end my sideboard is very close to yours but with more graveyard-hate instead of combo-hate.

3 Path to Exile
2 Krosan Grip
3 Spell Pierce
1 Gilded Drake/Sower of Temptation
1 Faerie Macabre
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

[Waikiki]

I find teeg the worst of the hatebears. Run MM or canon if u fear combo will show up alot. Teeg is more good vs Stax or landstill. Shutting down ur own FOW sux.

[majikal]

They booted us out of the DTB forum! Now maybe we'll fall off the radar and win even more!

[IwillSurvive]

Hey everyone.

So I played in a tournament tonight and went 6-0-2. Deck played really well and I had a lot of fun. I guess I will start with the list:

Bant Survival

Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Karakas

Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Vendellion Clique
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Meddling Mage
1 Trygon Predator
1 Wonder
1 Squee
1 Iona
1 Loyal Retainers

Spells
4 Survival
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares


Sideboard:

3 Path to Exile
3 Spell Pierce
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Krosan Grip
1 Llawan
1 Emrakul
1 Meddling Mage


Now for some matches...

Round 1 - ANT

Game 1 - I keep a good looking hand with a FoW, Spellstutter, Hierarch, Monk and some lands. I have played against this guy many times and he always played some sort of tendrals so i felt safe. I go second and I get out a 4th turn Iona. With a meddling mage on mystical tutor, the game is over quick.
Game 2: -4 Swords, -1 Sower, +3 Spell Pierce, +1 Meddling Mage, +1 Faerie
I keep a nice hand with Spellstutter, Spell Pierce, FoW, and some other stuff. He mulls to 6. A 3rd turn Vendellion Clique gets rid of his Ad Nausem and beats for many points of damage. My Iona gets wiped away and a Meddling Mage on the tutor stays alive from a countered Slaughter Pact. I alpha strike and he shows me Ill Gotten Gains afterward but Faerie Macabre would have taken care of that.

2-0-0

Round 2 - Mono Red Burn

Game 1 - I keep a hand with Hierarch, some lands, maybe a FoW, and War Monk. He stalls a little on two lands and a Spellstutter counters a 2nd Bolt for my War Monk and the game is out of reach for him.
Game 2 - No sideboard? I cant remember if I sided so I will assume I did not.
I keep a hand with 2 War Monks and I feel bad for my opponent. I play them turn 3 and 4 with a spellstutter saving the 2nd after a desperate attempt to try to gain control of the game again. Good draws are always good.

4-0-0

Round 3 - U/W/r Planeswalker Control with CounterTop

Game 1 - I keep a normal hand with Hierarch and some Goyfs. I land a Survival about turn 4 and we trade blows as he mostly wraths my creatures over and over (after a Meddling Mage naming Wrath of God dies to a Day of Judgment *shurg*) and kills a few more with explosives. A second copy of survival off a Brainstorm gets me there after about 30 minutes. He waste locked me with Crucible for awhile but enough basics and having 7 cards in hand the whole game was just fine. Also, transmuting for Karakas with Iona on the board naming white is pretty good for the control player.
Game 2: -4 Swords, -1 Sower, +1 Meddling Mage, +2 Grip, +2 Pierce
He wrecks me this game by Helixing my Heirarch, Spell Snaring my Survival, then playing Ajani, Elspeth, and Jace in consecutive turns. He gets the nuts and I don't any counters.
Game 3: No sideboard changes
I go aggro all over the place with Goyfs and Pridemages. After a Counterbalance is blown up and a wrath is counter, Clique takes care of his only removal and Meddling Mage names a planeswalker. Game is over in just a few minutes.

6-1-0

Round 4 - R/b Vial Goblins
Game 1 - I play a little sloppy and end up getting an Iona bounced to my hand. I stabilize with 3 Rhox War Monks and Wonder gets there all day.
Game 2: -1 Sower, -1 Clique, -1 Trygon Predator, +3 Path to Exile
I keep a hand with 2 Paths and a Swords with a Survival and some creatures. He starts the game with Leyline of the Void and Iona gets removed as a result. I end up missing one land drop but remove all his relevant creatures. Survival gets online and Heirarchs hit the board while chaining War Monks. A Meddling Mage on Warren's Weirding gets rid of the two in his hand revealed by Ringleader. I stabilize and Wonder gets there again.

8-1-0

Round 5 - Emrakul Show and Tell/Shelldock Isle.deck

We split after looking at some rankings to make sure our friends have a chance to get in...

8-1-1

Top 8 - Zoo

Game 1 - I am playing another friend and I end up keeping a hand with Hierarch and a War Monk. My Noble gets bolted but I draw another War Monk and stabilize quickly. He gets beat down by flying War Monks and I love Wonder more and more.
Game 2: -1 Trygon, -1 Clique, -1 Sower
We both keep our openers and he plays a 1st turn Nacatl. I play a Hierarch and on his turn he plays another Nacatl and misses a land drop. After I play a pridemage and block, he attempts to path his own dude. I counter and he misses another land drop. I get a Survival online and spellstutter counters another creature and ends up beating for about 12. A Meddling Mage on Path helps after he shows two in his hand after the game. An alpha strike with Wonder in the yard takes it down.

10-1-1

Top 4 - Budget Ad Nausem
He is playing some really weird version of ANT that seems a bit off the cusp. He had to leave and two other friends were in top 4 so we all decided to split after he offered me the win. I get $20 in store credit along with some much needed points.


Overall, I really like the way the deck played all night. I got good draws for the most part and I really felt in control of every game as a result. I LOVE Spellstutter Sprite and I LOVE Wonder. I will probably take out at least one Spellstutter for another War Monk though. He wins so many games by himself. I had a lot of fun and I really think this deck has a chance to beat anything that is thrown its way.

On a sideboard note, I will be taking out the Emrakul and probably the other Meddling Mage (I want to fit another in the main). Gaddock Teeg seems to be the way to go since I hate Moat, Wrath, and big Planeswalkers.


Hope these results help!

[Waikiki]

Congratulations on your finish. Seems like everything worked fine for you ;).

The list looks alot like mine except I play:

-wonder +rafiq
-Trygon + 2nd clique
-SSS + 4th RWM
-karakas +tundra (still no reanimator in sight in entire NL maybe 1 or 2 players) And still I think sower is a betteranswer.

[jeanbathez]

I looked though the Top 64 Decklists from GP Madrid and found 4 (I know 1 is from Waikiki ;-)) Bant Survival Lists, two of them with 4 Vials.

I'am still not sure if they won't belong in this deck, so i wanted to know what you think ?

Because they weren't discussed here that much...

19th Place: Sergio Perez (with 4 Vials)

39th Place: Carlos Fernandez-Baillo (with 4 Vials)

44th Place: Ruben Medina Garcia (no Vials)

50th Place: Dennis Baauw (no Vials)

[delcameron]

I was myself curious about trying Vials -- love those EOT shenanigans -- but I can't imagine cutting Hierarchs from this tight list. I also didn't see any recent lists with Vial on deckcheck.net... does anyone have some experience with Vial over Hierarch? Or maybe some kind of a split, like 3/3?

EDIT: I finally found those two Vial lists referred to above (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/19314.html), and there are a few conspicuous things: 1) they run both 4 Vials and 4 Hierarchs, and 2) both have 4 FoW but only 17 blue cards total! I can't imagine this is the optimal way to run Vials.

[IwillSurvive]

I can't imagine this is the optimal way to run Vials.

This is the problem you tend to run into when running Vials. It causes you to run much less blue cards and creatures for survival. When running vial, you gain the extra (and what I consider to be win more) eot tricks but you have much less consistency with other parts of your deck. Running this deck with vials changes much of the fabric of what makes it good: consistency.

Another big part of the argument against Vial is that when playing Bant Survival, you accept that there will be some amount of dead cards in many situations. This is offset by the fact that many of these dead cards are creatures (eg. Squee and Loyal Retainers/Iona) that can be discarded to Survival. This cannot be said about Vial and when playing this card, you must accept having even more dead draws late in the game and more cards to clutter your hand.

^^ all of this and more can be found earlier in the form. I think (and if I am wrong, someone please correct me) that most have decided that running Vial is unnecessary and mostly a cute trick.

[ChrisElrod]

They booted us out of the DTB forum! Now maybe we'll fall off the radar and win even more!

I wonder why this deck apparently meets little success in big tournaments, and doesn't see all that much play.

Personally, this is the only deck I can win with. I scrub out with most everything else; to me it seems like this is clearly one of the easiest decks to play, or one of the most powerful decks relative to the skill requirement. However, I've seen comments here saying that the spellstutter sprites are difficult to use, and that meddling mages require being very well informed, so perhaps the issue is simply that I run dazes over the creature alternatives.

A brief history and introduction:
I started playing magic during onslaught block. Never was into standard, and about six years ago I built my first legacy deck (sneak attack based off Tsuyoshi Fujita's extended build); half a year later I built a more serious deck, RGSA (red green survival advantage).
I met with a lot of success with the deck, regularly doing very well at local tournaments. When flash hulk came out, I decided to quit magic (as in, not regularly go to tournaments), since combo was getting much better in general (even after flash hulk got banned), and my deck no longer looked like it could consistently bring me success.
About a year ago I got back into magic, and rather than using survival I started using a great variety of other decks that seemed obviously "better" based off how many people use them: cb-top, natural order cb-top, canadian thresh, grixis colored tempo-faeries, zoo, and goblins, to name some.
In general, my success was limited, only seeing a single win with some of the decks, and never consistent success.
Eventually I built bant survival, and I was met with instant success.

The tournaments I went to:
1) 31 people; went 4-1 into the top 8; played one round in the top 8 (win) to get into the top 4 and then split.
2) "Legacy win a box", GP side event. 8 person, single elimination. Lost to goblins round 1 thanks to some consistently poor top decks.
3) "Legacy for a laptor", other GP side event. 46 people, I went 4-2 to a useless 11th place.
4) 14 people; split 1st in the final.
5) 12 people; "casual non-rated legacy". 1st.
6) 20 people, 1st.

My experience may be biased, as most of my magic-career I played survival decks, and might not have gotten to much experience with the other decks I tried out before taking them to tournaments. However, bant survival plays quite differently from old RGSA decks. I think my results speak for themselves: this deck seems extremely good, and is probably easily one of the best decks in the format.
But, this should be more than obvious: this deck is very similar to many of the other decks, but runs a card that only costs "1G" and typically makes you win the game. Tarmogoyf is crap in comparison.

So, why the lack of major tournament success, and why would a deck that seems so obviously amazing ever have the potential to "fall off the radar"?

Many of those posting here seem to also have consistent success.


Is it really needed to play 2 more win options (Wonder, Rafiq) next to Iona+Retainer?

Iona, followed by a next turn rafiq = 16+ damage. A single noble hierarch makes it 18, which is generally lethal (2 fetchlands is fairly common).

[Waikiki]

It's fairly easy imo. I do well even in big tournaments. The deck is hard to pilot tho. And loyal retainers aren't easy to come by so alot of people do not play the deck.

[jeanbathez]

@Vials : I won't give up the discussion ;-)

> the bluecount, thats a Problem right, but that can be fixed by adding more blue cards.

> i know that vials were allready dicussed a few months ago, but perhaps they are good now. I looked though the lists from gp madrid and found it very interesting that the best 2 lists both had vials, so i thought that would be a interesting point to discuss, but if you think no, then ok.

> I play this deck for a year now, and i think vials can solve some of its problems...but i must admit it creates new ones , but it was only an attempt to test new/old ideas in another light....perhaps its only my playstyle which brings me to vials..

[sdematt]

I've generally been finding in many faster matchups (Merfolk, Goblins, and sometimes Zoo) that going for the Iona combo seems a bit slow. I was just wondering if it was a bit clunky to do in some matchups. My meta is infested with Tribal, so I always find myself going to aggro route, with creature beatdown and not really worrying about Iona (ex. Goblins has active Vials, Iona really doesn't do much, you know what I mean?) I'm just wondering if I'm playing it correctly in these situations.

-Matt

[Jak]

I wonder why this deck apparently meets little success in big tournaments, and doesn't see all that much play.

Personally, this is the only deck I can win with. I scrub out with most everything else; to me it seems like this is clearly one of the easiest decks to play, or one of the most powerful decks relative to the skill requirement. However, I've seen comments here saying that the spellstutter sprites are difficult to use, and that meddling mages require being very well informed, so perhaps the issue is simply that I run dazes over the creature alternatives.

A brief history and introduction:
I started playing magic during onslaught block. Never was into standard, and about six years ago I built my first legacy deck (sneak attack based off Tsuyoshi Fujita's extended build); half a year later I built a more serious deck, RGSA (red green survival advantage).
I met with a lot of success with the deck, regularly doing very well at local tournaments. When flash hulk came out, I decided to quit magic (as in, not regularly go to tournaments), since combo was getting much better in general (even after flash hulk got banned), and my deck no longer looked like it could consistently bring me success.
About a year ago I got back into magic, and rather than using survival I started using a great variety of other decks that seemed obviously "better" based off how many people use them: cb-top, natural order cb-top, canadian thresh, grixis colored tempo-faeries, zoo, and goblins, to name some.
In general, my success was limited, only seeing a single win with some of the decks, and never consistent success.
Eventually I built bant survival, and I was met with instant success.

The tournaments I went to:
1) 31 people; went 4-1 into the top 8; played one round in the top 8 (win) to get into the top 4 and then split.
2) "Legacy win a box", GP side event. 8 person, single elimination. Lost to goblins round 1 thanks to some consistently poor top decks.
3) "Legacy for a laptor", other GP side event. 46 people, I went 4-2 to a useless 11th place.
4) 14 people; split 1st in the final.
5) 12 people; "casual non-rated legacy". 1st.
6) 20 people, 1st.

My experience may be biased, as most of my magic-career I played survival decks, and might not have gotten to much experience with the other decks I tried out before taking them to tournaments. However, bant survival plays quite differently from old RGSA decks. I think my results speak for themselves: this deck seems extremely good, and is probably easily one of the best decks in the format.
But, this should be more than obvious: this deck is very similar to many of the other decks, but runs a card that only costs "1G" and typically makes you win the game. Tarmogoyf is crap in comparison.

So, why the lack of major tournament success, and why would a deck that seems so obviously amazing ever have the potential to "fall off the radar"?

Many of those posting here seem to also have consistent success.

It still has been doing well, it just doesn't see the same success as something like Zoo or Merfolk because of how little it is played. Bant Survival is one of the most expensive decks in the format. The deck is still very playable without Retainers too but I am not sure if a lot of people recognize that.

It is also very difficult to pilot effectively. It is strong which helps, but the little things can make or break anything in Legacy and this deck has a lot of them. Using Brainstorm effectively, knowing what to save counters for, what to get with Survival, when to get basics, what to name with Mage, how to use Sprite, and of course metagaming it effectively. The first time I played the deck, I played it terribly. Cast the wrong cards at the wrong time, didn't save counters/removal for more important things, etc. But I was still able to win because Survival is probably the strongest engine in the format (or right behind Loam). Put that in a blue shell and the deck becomes resilient, consistent, and gets better matchups all around.

In the larger tournaments, the strength of the deck can't pull you out wins like at locals so playing the deck optimally will get you far.

And people have been doing that.

First place for a Lotus in the Northeast US (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16327-06-12-2010-Lotus-Moxen-40-Duals-40-Fetchs-Goyfs-Forces-LED!-Play-the-Game)

Obviously there's more but this is a recent example.


Iona, followed by a next turn rafiq = 16+ damage. A single noble hierarch makes it 18, which is generally lethal (2 fetchlands is fairly common).

Which is awesome... but you already have an Iona out. There are very few situations where winning 2 turns faster matters when you have Survival and Iona on the battlefield. My feelings are mixed with Rafiq because he was so amazing as the "Iona" before we had Iona. He was the go to guy to win the game and I loved playing with him. Now, I would much rather go for Iona when I have five mana. Still, 20 point life swings with Rhox War Monk, winning out of no where, etc make him good, but his ass of three sucks.

I like playing him in my deck for local tournaments just because of how much fun he is. He still might be decent competitively though too.

[Jak]

> the bluecount, thats a Problem right, but that can be fixed by adding more blue cards.

Easier said than done, my friend.


> i know that vials were allready dicussed a few months ago, but perhaps they are good now. I looked though the lists from gp madrid and found it very interesting that the best 2 lists both had vials, so i thought that would be a interesting point to discuss, but if you think no, then ok.

It is interesting, but it doesn't necessarily mean they should be in. Sub-optimal lists win all of the time. I am not saying Vials are inferior, but from my testing, the deck is better without them. Without them, the creature and blue counts can be at comfortable levels and there are less dead draws later on. This is especially important because this deck thrives on playing as normal as possible without Survival. It has enough dead draws in the form of Squee, Iona, and Retainers.

Anyway, with the top 2 lists running them, it was definitely worth rethinking and retesting them. They weren't good for me.


> I play this deck for a year now, and i think vials can solve some of its problems...but i must admit it creates new ones , but it was only an attempt to test new/old ideas in another light....perhaps its only my playstyle which brings me to vials..

What problems does Vial solve? And it is fine to to bring up old ideas or cards to try them again, it's just that it was tried a short time ago and the deck hasn't changed. I think you should test it if you feel this storngly about it. Then, come back with your results.

[ChrisElrod]

It still has been doing well, it just doesn't see the same success as something like Zoo or Merfolk because of how little it is played. Bant Survival is one of the most expensive decks in the format. The deck is still very playable without Retainers too but I am not sure if a lot of people recognize that.

It is also very difficult to pilot effectively. It is strong which helps, but the little things can make or break anything in Legacy and this deck has a lot of them. Using Brainstorm effectively, knowing what to save counters for, what to get with Survival, when to get basics, what to name with Mage, how to use Sprite, and of course metagaming it effectively. The first time I played the deck, I played it terribly. Cast the wrong cards at the wrong time, didn't save counters/removal for more important things, etc. But I was still able to win because Survival is probably the strongest engine in the format (or right behind Loam). Put that in a blue shell and the deck becomes resilient, consistent, and gets better matchups all around.

I noted some mistakes I made; one game my opponent cast small pox and I discarded a ponder instead of an iona in case I draw a survival =/. Fairly dumb in hindsight: ponder would see if I was going to draw one any time soon, and if so could help find a creature to. Otherwise, it wouldn't simply be a dead card. Later that game I topdecked loyal retainers and wanted to shoot myself.

I haven't tested the deck without retainers, but I really like it in that it makes survival a huge instant-threat. After weaning off of angry-roffelos survival decks, loyal retainers-iona feels similarly powerful-and even more in the short term. Perhaps this is why I also kept running rafiq.

The problem with those other survival decks was often a lack of consistency (if they didn't have survival), terrible combo matchup (especially if they lacked black), and poor early game. The blue shell definitely helps all of this, which is why I initially opted for daze, as that is a free spell to help with the early game, and also combo. As most blue decks run it, it seemed a clear choice for a "running without survival" plan as well.

My lack of mages and sprites, and having past experience with survival (cutting down some things in your list of difficulty to play), is perhaps why I found it easier to play and do well with relative to other decks-alongside the deck's tremendous strength.


In the larger tournaments, the strength of the deck can't pull you out wins like at locals so playing the deck optimally will get you far.

I'll stick with the deck at local tournaments, and hopefully eventually get a chance to try it out in a larger one.

I'll also be sure to test mages and sprites considering most run them over dazes-and be sure to test them for some time before considering reverting, due to their apparent difficulty (which would mean I should expect less success at first).


And people have been doing that.

First place for a Lotus in the Northeast US (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16327-06-12-2010-Lotus-Moxen-40-Duals-40-Fetchs-Goyfs-Forces-LED!-Play-the-Game)

Obviously there's more but this is a recent example.

Cool to see, thanks.
3 spell pierces main was perhaps the most interesting, but only 3 brainstorms was also. I always like to see brainstorm, and it often makes the difference between a mulligan and solid-looking hand.

The data on Madrid showed that survival had quite decent percentage penetration into high rankings as well.


Which is awesome... but you already have an Iona out. There are very few situations where winning 2 turns faster matters when you have Survival and Iona on the battlefield. My feelings are mixed with Rafiq because he was so amazing as the "Iona" before we had Iona. He was the go to guy to win the game and I loved playing with him. Now, I would much rather go for Iona when I have five mana. Still, 20 point life swings with Rhox War Monk, winning out of no where, etc make him good, but his ass of three sucks.

I like playing him in my deck for local tournaments just because of how much fun he is. He still might be decent competitively though too.

That is true; I also often find Rafiq to be one of the easiest things to side out. I'll be sure to try and keep better track of how often he helps/was unnecessary. Making more space is good.
Normally when I've used him it was for heavy flying damage-but in that case he seems similar to wonder (which I haven't tried out yet).

Among the 4 gp top 64 lists and the lotus tournament list, only 1 had rafiq, and only 1 had wonder, so it seems neither are necessary.


It's fairly easy imo. I do well even in big tournaments. The deck is hard to pilot tho. And loyal retainers aren't easy to come by so alot of people do not play the deck.

The total cost of the deck isn't that bad; much less than lands, and not much worse than other bant decks considering total value of the dual lands. Most people may feel bad though for spending $100+ on an otherwise worthless card, when compared to tabernacle or dual lands.

It is good to see that it is often successful. It still just seemed strange that the deck doesn't get more attention when it seems like such a strong deck.

[jeanbathez]

@Jak : Thanks for your answer. One of the Problem i was speaking about was mansscrew, and keeping landlight hands thanks to vial (which was very good in my testing). The other one was the merfolk matchup.

But no discussion anymore i will test and will see.... ;-)
By the way though the bannings perhaps a lot of things will change we will see...

[godryk]

I can speak for Vial as it basically saw play in Spain. Indeed, there was a huge controversy regarding that card in spanish forums and many people claimed that they wouldn't play the deck without Vial. The main argument was that the deck is very mana hungry and you hadn't the mana to get Survival going and play your disruption/cantrips effectively, at least not as effectively as many people would like. I can say that T1 Vial followed by T2 Survival is one of the most awesome things you could see. You can force all your guys and have free mana to Survival in shit. This is specially useful when you are manascrewed or low in green mana/forced to fetch basics; we all have suffered that situation of having only one green mana available and Survival in play. Anyway, Vial was also a threat of his own against Blue based decks, and another must counter. Eventually, I felt that you didn't need to run the full set, as Vial wasn't as crucial to our gameplan as it was to Merfolks o Goblins. A T3 Vial was useful too as a mean to cheat our big boys in play.

There was also another controversy regarding Spellsutter Sprite. We all found it too mana intensive, and if you played the deck aggresively, as this isn't Countertop, leaving two mana open felt very strange. Yeah, I know, you play your guys and save Sprite to protect their asses, but it still felt weird. In fact, during months Sprite was cut from the deck, even in this thread, in spite it has been reconsidered now. Many people suggested that Sprite could be more playable in Vial versions, as it was easier to leave the mana open or Vial it into play.

However, the card changes how the deck feels, and it becomes kind of aggresive.

What I want to state is that the Vial thing was not a suboptimal list, at least in the sense of being the weird tech of your local nerd, but it has been debated over months in the spanish community and it has shown results. Even two guys made it to the top 64 with Aether Vial versions at Madrid (which anybody who attended can tell you is damn hard) as you have seen. This doesn't prove anything, but it deserves some respect.

:wink:

However, in the post Retainers era many people found that it if you wanted to play Vial+Retainers, the deck became too random and started to get excesively Survival-dependant so I think it has been abandoned, mainly because players who liked the more aggresive approach switched to other things like Stoneforge Mystic based decks and other shit.

[lunar_eternal_blue]

So would you recommend running vials in the list if it wasn't going to include the Iona + Retainers combo? I understand that it is really good, but before dropping the money on Retainers I would like to test other options, and I am wondering if vials would work.

[majikal]

In my opinion, if you don't have Retainers + Iona combo in your build, Vial might help compensate for the lack of an "I Win" button, but it does drastically change the way the deck plays.

All depends on what playstyle you're most comfortable with, I guess.

[Waikiki]

If I dont have iona / loyal I'd just play a wonder and some cool guy or a ponder.

[PWiggan]

Cool to see, thanks.
3 spell pierces main was perhaps the most interesting, but only 3 brainstorms was also. I always like to see brainstorm, and it often makes the difference between a mulligan and solid-looking hand.


The Lotus winning list was played by me, metagamed by myself and a friend. We expected to face a lot of combo and zoo/tribal aggro. The spell pierces main were there mostly for the surprise factor - I had people playing around daze and walking into them all day long.

The Brainstorm statement you make... I disagree with. If you're keeping on the strength of brainstorm, you typically should have mulliganed. I wanted to have them to tuck key cards away from discard, or to shuffle away 1 ofs that I didn't need, not to smooth draws or convince me to keep loose hands.

On the topic of Rafiq - he was amazing for me all day - swinging for 18-22 with Iona, or just 8 with RWM.

[ChrisElrod]

The Lotus winning list was played by me, metagamed by myself and a friend. We expected to face a lot of combo and zoo/tribal aggro. The spell pierces main were there mostly for the surprise factor - I had people playing around daze and walking into them all day long.

Okay, thanks.


The Brainstorm statement you make... I disagree with. If you're keeping on the strength of brainstorm, you typically should have mulliganed. I wanted to have them to tuck key cards away from discard, or to shuffle away 1 ofs that I didn't need, not to smooth draws or convince me to keep loose hands.

Well, short of a godhand, brainstorm always makes me more comfortable keeping a hand. If I don't have brainstorm, I'd almost certainly mulligan a hand with, for example, loyal retainers + iona in it if it lacked survival. If I had brainstorm + fetchland, along with some other decent stuff, like force, goyf, and another land, I think it would be worth keeping, or?
Survival decks are decks that often have a lot of crap; having a little bit of it in your oppening hand could make it a loose keep without brainstorm + fetch, otherwise it seems completely fine, and mulliganing in a case like that seems like it would simply be card disadvantage and a risk towards mulliganing into worse stuff.
These hands seem to come up very regularly-the difference brainstorm makes here is huge.

[Muela]

@PWiggan Congratulations for the result ^^ BTW, any report avaliable?

[PWiggan]

Sorry, I don't have a report - didn't take notes and didn't have time to go back, with the tournament ending @ 11ish, and a GPT the next morning. If anyone has specific questions about the list/deck/tournament I'd be happy to answer.

[majikal]

So with the metagame set to change significantly in a few days, what kind of new sideboard options should we be looking at for an unknown field?

[Rancorous Fool]

I recommend creatures. Seems good with survival.

Maybe some spells too, seems good without survival.

Something like:

1 spell pierce
1 spell snare
1 dispel
1 Faerie macabre
1 tormods crypt
1 loaming shaman
1 krosan grip
1 qasali pridemage
1 monk realist
1 tivador
1 llawan
1 sower
1 path
1 submerge
1 mangara

[ChrisElrod]

Aggro decks in general will get better with the decline in combo.
Lands also dislikes combo, and loves aggro.

Speaking of lands, what is everyone's game plan against it?

[Nidd]

Aggro decks in general will get better with the decline in combo.
Lands also dislikes combo, and loves aggro.

Speaking of lands, what is everyone's game plan against it?
I play 1 Emrakul, 3 Faerie Macabre and 2 Crypts in my SB to battle Lands.

Emrakul is a nice target for Retainers when Lands doesn't play Karakas, as he will annihilate their board and lock them out. He can also shuffle back Faeries so I can tutor them up again and potentially get rid of their whole GY.
Crypts is just there to not to be completely cold to Needle on Faerie and as a... bigger countermeasure against Dredge.

[Waikiki]

ill just play kira

[Nidd]

ill just play kira

That would be too easy.

:(

[majikal]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=106878&stc=1&d=1277957032

Might this be worthwhile in any way? Redundancy is always good, but at the very least it helps get around Pithing Needle. I often find myself only using Survival once EOT anyway, so this seems extremely relevant to my interests.

[Black Mass]

@ Fauna Shaman:

I don't like it. You have to tap him, which makes it slow because of summoning sickness and you can use it only once, so chaining Iona->Retainers or Squee->Wonder->Big Beater isn't possible.

Had you be able to search enchantments with it, i'd take it, now it looks a bit like a hype card to me, will be great in EDH though or a elves build perhaps...

[Kuma]

I love that card. I love that they printed something this close to Survival's functionality. That said, I don't think it'll ever be more than a one-of in Bant Survival. If you want to Survival for a Survival, Eternal Witness does that better. Pithing Needle is better answered with Sprite/Pridemage/Trygon/Grip. If this were "Magus of the Survival" I'd be a lot more interested.

[Jak]

If I wanted more Survivals, I would play Enlightened Tutor since it can make the sideboard amazing. I do want more Survivals so I have one every game, but I want it to be good, not on a creature or card disadvantage.

[Waikiki]

stupid tap symbol

[sdematt]

If it didn't have the tap symbol, I'd consider playing it more. But, you can only use it once, so I'm slightly heartbroken.

-Matt

[Sharpened]

Fauna Shaman is pretty, but probably worthless for legacy (hooray for other formats tho). Now that that's out of the way, let's focus on this deck.

The deck has it's core, and I think its fairly obvious what it's core is. The real challenge is tuning it to personal playstyle and for an expected metagame.

So start with Zoo. If you were expecting to run into versions of Zoo over and over, what are the important part of the deck for you?
Obviously, you want the full 4 Rhox War Monks, but what else?
Kira? I'd think Kira is a card you'd want in the deck for a zoo matchup? How about Rafiq? Him I'm less sure about, is he worth a slot in that matchup?
What about your disruption slots? For zoo, specifically, would you rather be running Sprites,Meddling Mages, Spell Snares? Do you think additional Spell Pierces add value (would you side them in, if you had them in your board)?
What specifically doesn't add value in the Zoo matchup? Vendillion Clique? Sower of Temptation? Do you want Wonder? What about the Iona/Retainers combo, are you tempted to side that out?

Obviously, you don't want to cripple your deck against the rest of the meta for just one matchup. Something like Wall of Roots probably is pretty nice against Zoo, but may cost you in your other matchups or you just may not be able to find the space. But I'm curious, sort of a metal excersize if you will, of how best to tune this deck to combat zoo. Do you even stoop to using things like Linvala to shut off Lavamancers and take away the fetching of KoTR? What would you do?

[majikal]

Fauna Shaman is pretty, but probably worthless for legacy (hooray for other formats tho). Now that that's out of the way, let's focus on this deck.

The deck has it's core, and I think its fairly obvious what it's core is. The real challenge is tuning it to personal playstyle and for an expected metagame.

So start with Zoo. If you were expecting to run into versions of Zoo over and over, what are the important part of the deck for you?
Obviously, you want the full 4 Rhox War Monks, but what else?
Kira? I'd think Kira is a card you'd want in the deck for a zoo matchup? How about Rafiq? Him I'm less sure about, is he worth a slot in that matchup?
What about your disruption slots? For zoo, specifically, would you rather be running Sprites,Meddling Mages, Spell Snares? Do you think additional Spell Pierces add value (would you side them in, if you had them in your board)?
What specifically doesn't add value in the Zoo matchup? Vendillion Clique? Sower of Temptation? Do you want Wonder? What about the Iona/Retainers combo, are you tempted to side that out?

Obviously, you don't want to cripple your deck against the rest of the meta for just one matchup. Something like Wall of Roots probably is pretty nice against Zoo, but may cost you in your other matchups or you just may not be able to find the space. But I'm curious, sort of a metal excersize if you will, of how best to tune this deck to combat zoo. Do you even stoop to using things like Linvala to shut off Lavamancers and take away the fetching of KoTR? What would you do?
I have been thinking of shifting my Spell Pierces to the main deck to free up SB space for a couple of Kitchen Finks and maybe another Path to Exile.

[Kuma]

If you were expecting to run into versions of Zoo over and over, what are the important part of the deck for you?
Obviously, you want the full 4 Rhox War Monks, but what else?
Kira? I'd think Kira is a card you'd want in the deck for a zoo matchup? How about Rafiq? Him I'm less sure about, is he worth a slot in that matchup?
What about your disruption slots? For zoo, specifically, would you rather be running Sprites,Meddling Mages, Spell Snares? Do you think additional Spell Pierces add value (would you side them in, if you had them in your board)?
What specifically doesn't add value in the Zoo matchup? Vendillion Clique? Sower of Temptation? Do you want Wonder? What about the Iona/Retainers combo, are you tempted to side that out?

Obviously, you don't want to cripple your deck against the rest of the meta for just one matchup. Something like Wall of Roots probably is pretty nice against Zoo, but may cost you in your other matchups or you just may not be able to find the space. But I'm curious, sort of a metal excersize if you will, of how best to tune this deck to combat zoo. Do you even stoop to using things like Linvala to shut off Lavamancers and take away the fetching of KoTR? What would you do?

Four Rhox War Monks is a good start. The lifegain is huge, and the ass of four means that Zoo will usually have to spend two cards to get rid of it.

Kira is decent in the Zoo matchup, but most of the time you want to either get a fast Iona or chain Rhox War Monks. I still board it in because it helps.

Spellstutter Sprite is better than Spell Snare and much better than Meddling Mage. I board out Meddling Mages. If the Zoo player wants to play the named card bad enough, he'll sling one of his innumerable burn/removal spells at it. The 2/2 body is pretty bad in combat too.

Spell Pierce isn't great against Zoo. I leave them in the board.

I side out some number of Force of Will and Meddling Mage for Paths to Exile and Kira. There aren't enough cards you want to spend two cards to get rid of, making Force of Will subpar. The extra removal is great at slowing Zoo down while you set up active Survival for the win.

Vendilion Clique is mediocre, but better than Meddling Mage and Force of Will. Sower of Temptation is awful. Wonder is great in those mid-game groud stalls, allowing you to swing over his board with flying Rhox War Monks.

I don't side out Loyal Retainers/Iona, because it's not that hard to set up, and will usually win you the game. White is almost always the correct color even if you are low on life since the Zoo player isn't likely to be holding burn by the time you can set up Iona. It's important to realize that sometimes the best play with Iona is not to set it up right away. Somtimes you're better off getting a Rhox War Monk or two to stabilize before throwing an Iona out there.

Overall, the Zoo matchup is difficult to play, but with practice is certainly favorable for us. I've never built a Bant Survival list that wasn't at least slightly favorable against Zoo.

[dellan]

Hello Everyone.

Im new to legacy and i was looking around here and found this awsome deck and i did my own list.

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk
1 Trygon Predator
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Wonder
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Eternal Witness
2 Vendilion Clique
ENCHANTMENTS (4)
4 Survival of the Fittest
INSTANTS (16)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Spell Snare
LANDS (19)
1 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
3 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains


Now i want your feedback if this is good enough to get or if i should do any changes.

Ty for the help :)

[Nidd]

I think you'd want at least 1 Qasali Pridemage in there, as he provides a tutorable instant-solution to problematic artifacts/enchantments.

[akiratheoni]

Hey guys, I just got my Loyal Retainers in the mail yesterday so I'm ready to try this at a tourney on Sunday. Here is my list:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation

// Lands
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
2 Tundra
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains

// Creatures
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Rhox War Monk
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Trygon Predator
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Spellstutter Sprite
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness

// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Stoneforge Mystic
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Gilded Drake
SB: 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 2 Path to Exile

The sideboard is a complete mess so I want help on it. From what I know, the meta seems to contain:
Countertop Thopters
NoPro Bant, Bant Countertop
UW Tempo
Goblins
Zoo
New Horizons
Mono U Merfolk

So what would be a good sideboard? Thanks guys.

[Jokemon]

The manabase need more forests.
-1 Island
-1 Tundra
+2 Tropicals

[mchainmail]

Hey guys, I just got my Loyal Retainers in the mail yesterday so I'm ready to try this at a tourney on Sunday. Here is my list:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation

// Lands
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
2 Tundra
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains

// Creatures
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Rhox War Monk
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Trygon Predator
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Spellstutter Sprite
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness

// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Stoneforge Mystic
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Gilded Drake
SB: 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 2 Path to Exile

The sideboard is a complete mess so I want help on it. From what I know, the meta seems to contain:
Countertop Thopters
NoPro Bant, Bant Countertop
UW Tempo
Goblins
Zoo
New Horizons
Mono U Merfolk

So what would be a good sideboard? Thanks guys.

Singleton SSS doesn't seem right. You need to basically keep 3 mana up against an opponent, and then you get blown out by any removal spell (or a counter)

Also, I'd consider a second Macabre; tutoring for one makes it a bad one-trick pony. Having a second forces them to play around it more.

[Nidd]

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Stoneforge Mystic
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Gilded Drake
SB: 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 2 Path to Exile

The sideboard is a complete mess so I want help on it. From what I know, the meta seems to contain:
Countertop Thopters
NoPro Bant, Bant Countertop
UW Tempo
Goblins
Zoo
New Horizons
Mono U Merfolk

So what would be a good sideboard? Thanks guys.
I think Cold-Eyed Selkie would totally rock in that meta, consider 3 copies for the SB.
I don't think 3 Spell Pierce is needed, you already play Spell Snares MB. You could go down to 2. Up the Faerie Macabre Count to at least 2, they are awesome against GY based strategies and together with Emrakul, you can constantly wipe out their GY.
The SFM package doesn't look very appealing, I think these are slots for Selkies.

[akiratheoni]

Thanks for the suggestions. Cold-Eyed Selkie seems pretty good, and I'll up the Macabre count. So then my sideboard would look like:

2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
2 Spell Pierce
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Gilded Drake
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Path to Exile
2 Cold-Eyed Selkie

(not sure what to take out for the 3rd Selkie)

I was eh on the SSS, what should I replace it with?

Also I'd add the 2 more Trops but due to budget issues I can't, but thanks, I have noticed I am a bit light on Forests.

So then the Emrakul is useful, then? I always thought it was cute to put it into play with Retainers but I've never heard of anyone actually doing it with success -- in what matchups should I be recurring the Emrakul?

[Nidd]

Thanks for the suggestions. Cold-Eyed Selkie seems pretty good, and I'll up the Macabre count. So then my sideboard would look like:

2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
2 Spell Pierce
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Gilded Drake
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Path to Exile
2 Cold-Eyed Selkie

(not sure what to take out for the 3rd Selkie)

I was eh on the SSS, what should I replace it with?

Also I'd add the 2 more Trops but due to budget issues I can't, but thanks, I have noticed I am a bit light on Forests.

So then the Emrakul is useful, then? I always thought it was cute to put it into play with Retainers but I've never heard of anyone actually doing it with success -- in what matchups should I be recurring the Emrakul?
Lands and Enchantress... that's it, I think.

On the other hand, you can use him to dodge GY hate.

[majikal]

Lands and Enchantress... that's it, I think.

On the other hand, you can use him to dodge GY hate.
I bring it in against most control decks, really. Anything that looks to stall the game out is worth bringing in Emrakul. It's just golden when you need to repeatedly recur Pridemages, as well. Take THAT, Ensaring Bridge!

[Hawdes]

Thanks for the suggestions. Cold-Eyed Selkie seems pretty good, and I'll up the Macabre count. So then my sideboard would look like:

2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
2 Spell Pierce
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Gilded Drake
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Path to Exile
2 Cold-Eyed Selkie

(not sure what to take out for the 3rd Selkie)

I was eh on the SSS, what should I replace it with?

Also I'd add the 2 more Trops but due to budget issues I can't, but thanks, I have noticed I am a bit light on Forests.

So then the Emrakul is useful, then? I always thought it was cute to put it into play with Retainers but I've never heard of anyone actually doing it with success -- in what matchups should I be recurring the Emrakul?

If I'm not misstaken, Emrakul doesn't hit the yard?

[counterspell7]

Emrakul does hit the yard. You need Loyal Retainers in play before you survival him so you can stack the shuffle trigger and sacrifice retainers.

Most of the time i just use Emrakul to dodge graveyard hate, however i have put him into play a few times when he was a better option than Iona.

[Kuma]

Hey guys, I just got my Loyal Retainers in the mail yesterday so I'm ready to try this at a tourney on Sunday. Here is my list:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation

// Lands
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
2 Tundra
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains

// Creatures
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Rhox War Monk
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Trygon Predator
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Spellstutter Sprite
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness

// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Stoneforge Mystic
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Gilded Drake
SB: 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 2 Path to Exile

The sideboard is a complete mess so I want help on it. From what I know, the meta seems to contain:
Countertop Thopters
NoPro Bant, Bant Countertop
UW Tempo
Goblins
Zoo
New Horizons
Mono U Merfolk

So what would be a good sideboard? Thanks guys.

You're running way too many basics. This is a much better mana base:

4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island

Eternal Witness is only good in our good matchups. Since I cut Rafiq, I've missed him once in over 100 tournament games.

I'm not a fan of Spellstutter Sprite at all, but there's no reason to run just one. Three, zero, heck maybe even two is correct, but not one.

Why do people insist on running Spell Snare? Meddling Mage is so much better, and you can find it with Survival.

If you metagame has significant numbers of Goblins, Zoo, and Merfolk, you should run the fourth Rhox War Monk.

I'd start my sideboard with four Path to Exile. It's fantastic against Goblins, Zoo, Merfolk, and New Horizons. Llawan, Cephalid Empress is good against Merfolk, Progenitus, Thopter tokens, and possibly UW Tempo. Kira, Great Glass Spinner for Zoo, Goblins, and if Merfolk runs Kira you can legend rule theirs. A few Krosan Grips would be good against the CounterTop decks, as would another Trygon Predator. Cold-Eyed Selkie is good against the blue decks.

4 Path to Exile
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
2 Krosan Grip
1 Trygon Predator
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Cold-Eyed Selkie
1 Gilded Drake
1 Gaddock Teeg

[Hawdes]

Emrakul does hit the yard. You need Loyal Retainers in play before you survival him so you can stack the shuffle trigger and sacrifice retainers.

Most of the time i just use Emrakul to dodge graveyard hate, however i have put him into play a few times when he was a better option than Iona.

Hmmm... Ait. Good to know. :)

[Fasbi]

In 2 weeks there is a "big" tournament (~120 player last time) again and i want to play Bant Survival, since I expect a good performance against a random meta with lots of aggro & "emrakul" decks.

The list I will play:

19 Lands (4 Basics, 8 Fetchies, 7 Duals)

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tamogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Spellstutter Sprite
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Wonder
1 Squee
1 Retainers
1 Iona

4 SotF
4 StoP
4 Brainstorms
2 Ponder
4 Force

In my opinion the mainboard doesn't look that bad so in fact my questions are about my sideboard I posted some days ago:

3 Path to Exile
2 Krosan Grip
3 Spell Pierce
1 Gilded Drake
1 Kira
1 Llawan
1 Faerie Macabre
3 Tormod's Crypt

I don't want to be reliant on Survival that much so I decided not to take 1-offs like Teeg, Mage or Canonist. Because of not having enough time to test it I want to ask if this is really clever? IF I get SotF online it's fantastic to have a target against combo but isn't it too slow? With Hierarch Survival + search come turn 2 followed by playing the creature turn 3. Ok, there won't be much ANT/Reanimator cause of the bannings but still... I'm afraid of them. xD

My other question is about the graveyard-hate. I think that most of the ANT/Reanimator player will take Dredge (now on of the best combo-decks :D) or something like S&T/Eureka (against S&T/Eureka I have the 3 Pierce and Gilded Drake). I tested a few times against Dredge and realized that hate can really kill/slow them. But after my 1. Macabre I still wanted a 2. or 3. one. Should I play 3 Faeries + 1 Crypt?

That leads my to my last question: If i take 3 Faeries... what about Emrakul? The slot of the crypt would be free so he/it can fill it. Is he worth it? The graveyard-dodge and infinite Macabres sound funny. :)

Thanks for your help!

Fasbi

[Waikiki]

I never had the need of playing emrakul.

If I want to shuffle back cards I'd use jotun grunt since it can act as grave hate aswell.
Also I would run one sower maindeck if u expect alot of emrakul decks.

[Fasbi]

Ah, Jotun Grunt sounds great! Instead of the last Crypt/Emrakul he will fill the slot! :)

About Sower - I'm afraid the it does nothing against those aggro decks which are a bigger problem than Emrakul which is not a really bad match-up postboard (Forces, Pierce, Survival find Drake). If I take a Sower main what should i cut? Sprite?

[K1LO]

In 2 weeks there is a "big" tournament (~120 player last time) again and i want to play Bant Survival, since I expect a good performance against a random meta with lots of aggro & "emrakul" decks.

The list I will play:

19 Lands (4 Basics, 8 Fetchies, 7 Duals)

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tamogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Spellstutter Sprite
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Wonder
1 Squee
1 Retainers
1 Iona

4 SotF
4 StoP
4 Brainstorms
2 Ponder
4 Force

In my opinion the mainboard doesn't look that bad so in fact my questions are about my sideboard I posted some days ago:

3 Path to Exile
2 Krosan Grip
3 Spell Pierce
1 Gilded Drake
1 Kira
1 Llawan
1 Faerie Macabre
3 Tormod's Crypt

I don't want to be reliant on Survival that much so I decided not to take 1-offs like Teeg, Mage or Canonist. Because of not having enough time to test it I want to ask if this is really clever? IF I get SotF online it's fantastic to have a target against combo but isn't it too slow? With Hierarch Survival + search come turn 2 followed by playing the creature turn 3. Ok, there won't be much ANT/Reanimator cause of the bannings but still... I'm afraid of them. xD

My other question is about the graveyard-hate. I think that most of the ANT/Reanimator player will take Dredge (now on of the best combo-decks :D) or something like S&T/Eureka (against S&T/Eureka I have the 3 Pierce and Gilded Drake). I tested a few times against Dredge and realized that hate can really kill/slow them. But after my 1. Macabre I still wanted a 2. or 3. one. Should I play 3 Faeries + 1 Crypt?

That leads my to my last question: If i take 3 Faeries... what about Emrakul? The slot of the crypt would be free so he/it can fill it. Is he worth it? The graveyard-dodge and infinite Macabres sound funny. :)

Thanks for your help!

Fasbi
I´m playing one Meddling Mage maindeck for some time now and it saved my hairy ass a lot of times (naming Loam/NO/Combopiece/...)! In such a wide open field, like 120 players, I expect MM to definately have its uses. Also, I´m playing one Jötun Grunt already maindeck as he is seldom a bad draw (even good against Zoo - worst against Merfolk) on its own and shuffling back Qasalis/Retainers if needed to. He even saved me once from decking against Painter/Grind^^. Here my current list:

4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
4 Windswept Heath
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Daze/Snare/Spellstutter Sprite -> I prefer Daze!
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Meddling Mage
1 Jötun Grunt
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner/Trygon/Sower -> flexible slot, but has to be a blue creature!
3 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage

Sideboard:

2 Krosan Grip
3 Spell Pierce
3 Path to Exile
1 Slot to either Kira/Sower/Drake
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Tormod´s Crypt
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Slot to either Ethersworn Cannonist/Needle/Null Rod/Tsabo´s Web/Back to Basics/Jitte...

The Enlightened Tutor in my SB once had a bit larger toolbox, but really shines as Survival #5! Storm Combo beeing slower nowadays, Cannonist seems not needed anymore. I really liked the Null Rod, especially against Merfolk - shutting down their Jitte + Vial + Relic/Crypt, it also works great against Storm Combo, random Affinity, Grim Monolith-shenanigans, Thopter.deck, ... .


Greetz, K1LO

[akiratheoni]

I went 3-1 at a tournament today and lost in the finals for an Underground Sea. Here's my list:

4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Rhox War Monk
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Trygon Predator
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
2 Meddling Mage
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
2 Tundra
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
SB: 1 Trygon Predator
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 Gilded Drake
SB: 1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 2 Cold-Eyed Selkie
SB: 1 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Rafiq of the Many
SB: 1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

The mana base is terrible and because of budget issues, I do plan to acquire more Tropical Islands eventually.

Round 1: Elf Combo
G1: Mull to four, was a Forest, Hierarch, Witness, fetch. Unfortunately it couldn't stop an Elf swarm especially since I topdeck land after land.

G2: A Ponder and a couple early Goyfs beat in but she combos off on turn 3 (eventually hardcasting Emrakul). I didn't see a single blue card other than Ponder. I am so pro at this game.

0-2, 0-1

Round 2: Zoo
G1: First turn Lavamancer coupled with burn put me down to two despite Survival in play (I think I was a bit mana screwed). Finally I get a land and Loyal Retainers Iona into play, naming red. The game grinds to a halt as I topdeck Survival, land, land, Survival, land, land, land (not necessarily in that order) and he tops burn, burn, burn, Jitte, creatures, then a Goyf + Jitte do me in since eventually he would have enough counters to off Iona. All I needed was a creature to start my Survival engine going.

G2: Opening hand: Force, Emrakul, Loyal Retainers, Survival, land, land, and something else. Manage to get a turn 4 or 5 Emrakul into play and my opponent takes one turn, draws nothing relevant, and scoops.

G3: He starts off with Tormod's Crypt, Karakas. My opening hand was land, land, Survival, Force, creatures. He misses his 2nd land drop and plays another Crypt. I turn 2 Survival then when I have mana, fetch out Kira, Great Glass Spinner. He continues missing more land drops and I get out Rafiq, beating for six a turn. He draws a land then attempts to off Kira by using Karakas, then Bolting; I Force. Next turn he tries the same thing with Path, and I Force again. Then I cast a Clique to peek at his hand and it's my game (legendary creature beatdown with Karakas out :D).

2-1, 1-1

Round 3: Countertop Thopters.
G1: Most boring game ever, I started off with a one land hand and Ponder and figure it'll get me gas. It doesn't, I'm lucky enough that he got mana screwed so eventually I topdeck land and cast Goyf, who pretty much goes all the way.

G2: Same thing pretty much. Felt bad because this was the round where it really mattered because it's either you're in contention for top 4 or just playing for rating and/or pride.

2-0, 2-1

Round 4: Nick with Dream Halls
G1: I've heard of this deck and have a vague idea of how it works, but he managed to combo off with Show and Tell into Dream Halls. I Show and Tell'd a Squee. Weeeeeeeeeeeee

G2: I open up with a land, he plays Ancient Tomb. Then I play land, Meddling Mage naming Show and Tell. Next turn he drops a land, go. I drop Meddling Mage on Dream Halls and proceed with Mage beatdown. End of the game he reveals something like three Dream Halls and two Show and Tell (or the other way around). Wow.

G3: He is prepared for the Mages and Doom Blades them, but unfortunately draws nothing relevant; when he casts a Simian Spirit Guide to block my Goyf and Witness, I knew I had this in the bag.

2-1, 3-1

Top 4: Justin with UBgw Landstill
I don't remember a lot about this matchup or the next (since I was nervous), but basically I managed to draw into about 3 of my Goyfs on games 1 and 2. He draws into quite a bit of removal but the Witness allows me to recurr my threats over and over. I think I only saw Survival once, during the end of game 2.

2-0, 4-1

Top 2: Adam with Countertop
Basically right before I killed Adam he stabilized with Countertop and I couldn't do anything. Both games. I did manage to cast the Cold-Eyed Selkie and drew about 5 or so cards with it; even though I only got to test it in a match I lost, I really liked it.

0-2, 4-2

Got $20 in store credit so I threw in an extra $30 and picked up a Savannah. Overall it was fun, my opponents were all great people and I enjoyed playing them.

The deck was a blast to play (it was my first tournament with it). Meddling Mages were awesome, but I don't think I really saw them games 1. Spellstutter Sprites might be better here because a lot of my guys ended up getting Swords'd or Path'd. Still deciding between Daze, Spell Snare, or Spell Pierce though. Any suggestions?

[majikal]

Still deciding between Daze, Spell Snare, or Spell Pierce though. Any suggestions?
Honestly, I would just run more dudes. You don't need to play tempo counters in this deck.

[Esper3k]

So I tested out Fauna Shaman, here were my theorized thoughts on it before testing:

Pros:
Creature
Bad Survival's 5-8 (and a creature they have to deal with)
Can attack/block

Cons:
Very Slow
Easier to deal with (since creature removal is more common) than Survival

After testing it, it sadly felt very clunky to me. Even turns when I landed it early, it took so long to get it going that my opponent had already developed their board quite a bit and it was hard for me to catch up.

Anyone else test her out yet?

[swarm187]

I just started playtesting a variation of this deck and I had some ideas about some possible inclusions. Keep in mind, my build has more of a Madness feel to it, with Nimble Mongoose, Intuition, and other stuff like that abuses Threshold and Madness. I'm not sure if it's better or worse than a strict Bant Survival list, but I thought some of my choices might have a home in this build too.

Has anyone tested Vengevine in this deck? It seems so strong to pitch one to get another, repeat, then play two cheap dudes to get them all back. I also feel like Basking Rootwalla has a place here. Getting a free dude when you activate Survival is pretty strong.
I'm also testing a singleton Reveillark, has anyone tested this out? Along with Witness, it seems to be the best way to recur some dudes that have been pitched to Survival. It gets Selkie, Mongoose (for me), Teeg, etc. Almost every single creature in the deck.

As I wrote before, my deck is a fairly different list, but I feel like there is a lot of crossover.

Esper3k- I feel like Fauna Shaman is just bad. I originally thought about running one, but it's so fragile, slow, and weak, it just doesn't make any sense. You're more thorough than I for testing it, but I think your conclusions are pretty accurate. :)

Has anyone else run into the Perish problem? Twice last night I had awesome board position, only to get crushed by a Perish that my opponent sided in. Truth be told, this deck doesn't have a strong win condition that isn't green except Iona, and I don't run that because I don't own Loyal Retainers. Does anyone have any tech for that card?
I stopped running counters, as they really just slow the deck down, so that type of response to Perish isn't viable for me. Any other suggestions? What about a Natural Ordered Progenitus? Does anyone have a maindeck answer for that?

Lastly, has anyone thought about Moat? It seems strong as a sideboard card, with Wonder getting pitched fairly often in my build. Has anyone tested it?

[majikal]

stuff
Well, what IS your list?

Cutting FoW is a mistake, in my opinion. I don't run any counters except for it, but there are a few matchups that are just unwinnable without it.

I feel like running a lot of things with Threshold is a mistake as well, since that makes the deck very reliant on the graveyard in order to be good. I also tried Vengevine for a while and didn't really feel like it was necessary. Yeah, having a recurring threat is great, but in the matchups where I would want that I tend to just side in Emrakul, which can recur ALL of my threats (not to mention answers) as well as come down and annihilate the opponent's board when it needs to. Also over-reliance on the graveyard/Survival and all that jazz. Plus, unless you're just dumping them into the yard and reanimating them, they cost 4, and if I'm going to run any 4-drops at all, I feel like I would want them to be Jace. It seems nifty in GW Survival though, where you don't have access to all the cool toys that Bant Sur does.

Moat is a terrible idea. You're starting to rely too heavily on Survival. The entire point of the deck is to have a strong early game with an aggressive threat base, and then dominate the mid-to-late game with card advantage and selection. The idea is to have a strong gameplan even without Survival so you're not a complete dog if your opponent plays something like Pithing Needle.

As far as Perish goes, if you suspect they're playing it (and really, if they're playing black you should see it coming), just don't overextend into it. You don't have to play every creature you draw. If you've got reasonable board advantage, just ride it until you need to play something else. This is also one of the reasons why I keep FoW in my deck. Also things like Meddling Mage and Vendilion Clique help a lot, both with keeping threats on the board post-Perish, and with keeping the opponent from even playing it in the first place.

Reveillark is cute, but slow. It's broken as hell in EDH, but I don't think it has a place in Legacy.

And now, for Iona... well, honestly it's the main reason to play the deck. I suggest you save up and buy a Loyal Retainers. Or trade your Standard cards for one or something. It's worth every penny.


Re: Progenitus - Yes, there is a maindeck answer to that. Force of Will, and to an extent, Meddling Mage.

[Waikiki]

Just to get some discussion going I tried to add vengevine in the mix which is pretty good at asswhooping control so I moved iona to the side.

// Lands
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [PT] Forest (2)
1 [PT] Island (3)
1 [PT] Plains (3)
2 [A] Savannah
1 [A] Tundra

// Creatures
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [TO] Basking Rootwalla
4 [ROE] Vengevine
3 [PS] Meddling Mage
1 [JU] Wonder

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TO] Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [EVE] Cold-Eyed Selkie
SB: 1 [BOK] Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
SB: 1 [MM] Dawnstrider
SB: 1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 [P3] Loyal Retainers
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile

[Nidd]

A good excuse for me to buy me the Vengevines and Jaces I need when I finally start playing Standard again.

You say it's excellent against Control. Would you say one could consider this list in an Aggro-defined Meta or is it too slow for that?
Also, isn't that list a lot more reliant on SotF?

[Waikiki]

why exactly? The changes I made where to cut creatures I can cast for creatures I can cast. These creatures even have haste and recur themselves.

I removed 3 slots that dont do shit without survival (iona/loyal/squee)

I think the list is even less survival dependant then before. altho perhaps I'd add a 20th land. or try to lower the curve a bit.

[Nidd]

why exactly? The changes I made where to cut creatures I can cast for creatures I can cast. These creatures even have haste and recur themselves.

I removed 3 slots that dont do shit without survival (iona/loyal/squee)

I think the list is even less survival dependant then before. altho perhaps I'd add a 20th land. or try to lower the curve a bit.
That's what I was referring to.

The curve is pretty high and I can't really see that list getting there without a Hierarch - and if she gets burned, problems arise.

Sure, the deck overall looks less Survival-dependant - but isn't Vengevine itself dependant on SotF? I doubt hardcasting a 4/3 Haste for 4 is good in Legacy.

However, adding that 20th land and cutting some stuff might solve that problem - I'm fairly positive it will.

[Waikiki]

casting vengevine is actually pretty good and way better then being stuck with iona/retainer or squee. Just the problem is cutting what. I allready find the blue count pretty low.

[practical joke]

It might be me, but you don't really have to max out the ammount of vengevines now does it?
because:
- you don't see blighting in legacy
- you don't see cabal therapy being cast naming vengevine
- hypnotic specter is still random
- swords to plowshares is still considered removal number one, and your deck has (besides for the obvious goyf) hardly any target I find worth stp-ing, vengevine doesn't change this much.
- having 4 in a deck means drawing a vengevine that you probably have to cast. Now you can spend a full T3 (eot) to ditch 1 creature (maybe a vine) and get 2 more. getting the 3rd in your turn while being able to cast a goyf, avoid being dazed and then still go on a rampage.

In legacy I think that hardcasting a vengevine is like throwing cottonballs at an elephant.

because vengevine does crap in legacy unless being abused or pissing his pants when looking at a tarmogoyf, kotr or terravore.
therefore I think vengevine is pretty survival dependant.

I'd say cut a meddling mage and a single vengevine ( or 2 vengevines) to bring back either squee and a usable or iona/retainers back again.
12 power with wonder should be enough on T4?

Just my 2 cents.

[Nidd]

casting vengevine is actually pretty good and way better then being stuck with iona/retainer or squee. Just the problem is cutting what. I allready find the blue count pretty low.
I was already thinking about suggesting to cut U altogether and... go GW Survival? Maybe even with Fauna Shaman because in a deck with Vengevine she is an actual threat that has to be dealt with asap and draws removal way from your other threats/can be protected by MoR?

Feels like Bant Survival is steering into a dead end.

[Waikiki]

Good luck fighting vs landstill control decks and combo. I feel bant survival is still the strongest among survival decks. Blue got such good stuff to offer.

@ Robbin the 4th vengevine could aswell be the squee. I just tried to cut the squee and use vengevine instead as a way to pitch and not be totally dead. I agree that you should not spend an entire turn trying to get 4 of those dudes in your grave.

[majikal]

I like Jace in here, and I feel like two 4-drops are manageable. However, I'm still not feeling Vengevine. Cold-Eyed Selkie does a pretty good job by itself of ass-whooping control, alongside threat/answer recursion from Emrakul. If there's a matchup that can afford to be Survival-dependent, it's control, so I don't feel uncomfortable with the Emrakul engine out of the SB there, plus it's just one card. Also, you can just Annihilate their board if the opportunity arises, which is actually really good against the landstill-type decks.

It's the aggro decks that worry me. I don't think Vengevine is big enough or fast enough to get there against Zoo, ever. I'd rather have the 4th Warmonk and a big, beefy 7/7 flying angel that can block and shut off my opponent's removal than some 4/3's. Also, not really relevant against Zoo, but your blue count goes dangerously low with these guys.

I'm not just dismissing the idea without trying it either. I actually suggested Vengevine several pages ago, and tested it out with a decklist similar to the one Waikiki just posted, but I ended up scrapping it because it made my curve too high and limited my flexibility.

[Waikiki]

I allready cut the 4th for a squee, I just miss it too much. Aggro isnt really a problem for me beside merfolk that is. I can't remember I lost against zoo for a long time.

Still jace is awesome vengevine needs more testing. It's a strong card but I dont think with this build we can support him properly due to not having enough creatures to start recurring it when needed. Tho I'm not sure about that. Attacking in the air for alot is fun tho.

[majikal]

I allready cut the 4th for a squee, I just miss it too much. Aggro isnt really a problem for me beside merfolk that is. I can't remember I lost against zoo for a long time.
That's weird. Merfolk is pretty favorable from my experiences, where Zoo can be a coinflip.


Still jace is awesome vengevine needs more testing. It's a strong card but I dont think with this build we can support him properly due to not having enough creatures to start recurring it when needed. Tho I'm not sure about that. Attacking in the air for alot is fun tho.
I agree about not having enough/the right kind of creatures to reliably recur Vengevine, which is one of the reasons I cut it. It just destroyed the flexibility that, IMO, made the deck good. I've played it in GW Survival though, and it was a great fit in that deck. But that deck is full of one-drops already, so Vengevine seems almost tailor-made for it.

I think you really have to choose between playing aggro-control (Bant Survival in its current incarnation) or aggro (GW Survival), and Vengevine is one of those cards that's great for aggro, but not so much for aggro-control.

Another thing is that you have to dedicate so many slots just to alpha strike out of nowhere when you can basically do the same thing with Rafiq of the Many, who has the same toughness and CMC as Vengevine and also makes every creature in your deck into a huge threat. Not that I find either to be necessary, but just saying there are less bulky options.

Re: Jace - I really feel like it should be an auto-include at this point.

[Waikiki]

Maybe merfolk just happends to drop lord after lord after lord always against me.

So if we cut the 4 vengi + rootwalla + wonder we gain 6 slots from the deck which could be filled with:

squee
Loyal retainer
Iona
open
open
open

Also I am in doubt between MM/kira and spellstutter/cliques. I do not know how the meta will roll but vs zoo and other aggro decks that seem to pop up SSS is strong where the counterpart in control decks MM is awesome.

[Kuma]

Has anyone else run into the Perish problem? Twice last night I had awesome board position, only to get crushed by a Perish that my opponent sided in. Truth be told, this deck doesn't have a strong win condition that isn't green except Iona, and I don't run that because I don't own Loyal Retainers. Does anyone have any tech for that card?

Meddling Mage. I also run nine non-green creatures: 3 Spellstutter Sprite, 2 Vendilion Clique, 3 Meddling Mage, and Iona.


I stopped running counters, as they really just slow the deck down, so that type of response to Perish isn't viable for me. Any other suggestions? What about a Natural Ordered Progenitus? Does anyone have a maindeck answer for that?

Let me see if I understand this. You stopped running counters, you're having trouble with powerful sorceries, and you're wondering why?

The best options for dealing with sorceries are counterspells, discard, and Meddling Mage in that order.

Dude, just run Force of Will. How you can think the deck is better without it is beyond me.


Lastly, has anyone thought about Moat? It seems strong as a sideboard card, with Wonder getting pitched fairly often in my build. Has anyone tested it?

I've considered Magus of the Moat, but your best bet against aggro swarms is Dueling Grounds. Merfolk and Goblins hate that card.


Yeah, having a recurring threat is great, but in the matchups where I would want that I tend to just side in Emrakul, which can recur ALL of my threats (not to mention answers) as well as come down and annihilate the opponent's board when it needs to.

What's with all this talk of recurring threats? I have never needed to shuffle my yard into my deck to get creatures. Do you guys have these really long games where you literally run out of creatures? I'm genuinely curious, because this is a problem I've never once had in 7+ months of playing this deck.


And now, for Iona... well, honestly it's the main reason to play the deck. I suggest you save up and buy a Loyal Retainers. Or trade your Standard cards for one or something. It's worth every penny.

This, this, this ,this, this.

LR/Iona makes this deck so much better it's not even funny. 4/5 of my wins against Zoo alone are on the strength of that combo. My Loyal Retainers has paid for itself many times over.


Re: Progenitus - Yes, there is a maindeck answer to that. Force of Will, and to an extent, Meddling Mage.

Isn't it amazing how clueless that guy is?


Just to get some discussion going I tried to add vengevine in the mix which is pretty good at asswhooping control so I moved iona to the side.

You weren't ass-whooping control without it? Landstill-esque decks are probably our best matchup after Zoo and Storm.


That's weird. Merfolk is pretty favorable from my experiences, where Zoo can be a coinflip.

Interesting. Zoo is 80/20 or better in my testing, while Merfolk is around 60/40 or even better. I don't have complete post-board data on Merfolk, though.


Re: Jace - I really feel like it should be an auto-include at this point.

Really? What does he bring to the deck that we're in such desperate need of? Four mana is a lot for a deck that needs as much mana as Bant Survival. Our late game is already strong, what do we need Jace for?

[majikal]

What's with all this talk of recurring threats? I have never needed to shuffle my yard into my deck to get creatures. Do you guys have these really long games where you literally run out of creatures? I'm genuinely curious, because this is a problem I've never once had in 7+ months of playing this deck.
As far as getting threats, I admit it very rarely comes up, but when it does I'm extremely thankful for Emrakul in the sideboard. The only time this ever really happens is against things like Rock that pack board sweeps and Eternal Witness + Volrath's Stronghold, where it is a very real possibility to run out of threats. However, I've had several matches against Countertop Thopters where I needed to shuffle Pridemages back in and fetch them to blow up Ensnaring Bridge multiple times. The ability to do this is invaluable.



You weren't ass-whooping control without it? Landstill-esque decks are probably our best matchup after Zoo and Storm.
QFT


Interesting. Zoo is 80/20 or better in my testing, while Merfolk is around 60/40 or even better. I don't have complete post-board data on Merfolk, though.
I would love to play against whatever lists are in your meta. I always get curved out with Nacatl, Pridemage, Path your guy, burn you burn you burn you burn you. :(



Really? What does he [Jace] bring to the deck that we're in such desperate need of? Four mana is a lot for a deck that needs as much mana as Bant Survival. Our late game is already strong, what do we need Jace for?
Reusable removal, it gets rid of opposing Jace without having to attack it, which is becoming ubiquitous amongst other blue decks, as well as providing an alternate win condition against things like Lands that have no way to remove it. It's just such good utility that it warrants at least one slot.

[Fasbi]

Just a little report of my last tournament (131 players).
Went 6-2 with that list:

//Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
1 Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
1 Plains

//Creatures
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Loyal Retainers
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Rhox War Monk
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Spellstutter Sprite
1 Wonder
1 Vendilion Clique

//Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest

//Sideboard:
4 Path to Exile
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Krosan Grip
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
3 Spell Pierce
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Gilded Drake


Round 1 - Aggro Loam 1:2 (0:1)
Round 2 - Dredge 2:1 (1:1)
Round 3 - Merfolk 1:2 (1:2)
Round 4 - Aggro Loam 2:0 (2:2)
Round 5 - Dredge 2:0 (3:2)
Round 6 - Dreadstill 2:0 (4:2)
Round 7 - UW Control [CB-Top/Thopter Foundry] 2:0 (5:2)
Round 8 - New Horizon 2:1 (6:2)

My Deck did really well! And my sideboard was really great! :)
Those 2 rounds I've lost were still really close so I'm happy with my 6-2.

[Jak]

Feels like Bant Survival is steering into a dead end.

Every deck hits this to a certain extent. It's called optimization.

Waikiki, you cut Survival dependent cards for more Survival dependent cards. Vengevine is terrible without Survival. Don't kid yourself and say it isn't. A 4/3 with haste for four mana is terrible. It may be amazing against control, but this deck already had a great control matchup. Control isn't even that relevant.

Jace is interesting. It doesn't fit the deck's strategy at all, but is one of those good cards that you may have to run. I don't think it is and if you are having that much trouble facing it, there are so many options of stopping it. Spell Pierce, Pithing Needle, and attacking it are three very easy ways to handle the deck.

I basically agree with everything Kuma is saying. I'm not finding this deck struggling much, but then again I can hardly play anymore.

SB
3 Spell Pierce
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Aura of Silence
1 Dueling Grounds
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
1 Faerie Macabre

It needs to be trimmed up of course, but I want to get back to testing this sideboard again. I would also love to add Engineered Explosives and Trinket Mage, but whatever.

[Waikiki]

I agree vengevine isnt at home here but saying it sux to hardcast it isn't true. In the GW decks its perfectly fine hardcasting the plant.

@SB
I dont like one of macabre since you want it in your opening vs ichorid or reanimator.

[counterspell7]

I have had a lot of problems with the Zoo match up lately. I have found it to be at least 60/40 in their favor, maybe a little more.
My current list is:

Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
3 Meddling mage
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Wonder
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

Spells
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard
4 Spell Pierce
3 Path to Exile
2 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

After game one I usually board like this
-4 Force of Will
-3 Meddling mage
-1 Sower of Temptation
+4 Spell Pierce
+3 path to Exhile
+1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Any suggestions that would make my Zoo match up more favorable would be appreciated.

[Waikiki]

replace MM with spellstutter sprite and wonder with the 4th RWM and you should do fine.

[Kuma]

Any suggestions that would make my Zoo match up more favorable would be appreciated.

Iona. On. White.

That's how I win most of my games against Zoo.

Spell Pierce is terribad against Zoo. You're better off leaving in Force of Will.

Spellstutter Sprite is okay, the fourth RWM and Path would help.

The problem is likely in how you approach the match. I haven't ever had problems with Zoo --- no Bant Survival list I've ran has been worse than 60/40, and my current one is around 80/20. You need either a fast Survival, or at least one Rhox War Monk, piece of removal, or Force of Will in order to win. Never keep a hand that relies on Noble Hierarch --- a smart Zoo player will burn her right away. Being able to get rid of a turn one Wild Nacatl is key. If you can do that, they're usually slow enough that you can set up Survival or a bunch of 'goyfs/Rhox War Monks. You're the control in this match.

[swarm187]

I've been testing extensively for GP and I think my deck is as sound as it's going to get. I have been testing a card that I've been SUPER happy with so I wanted to share it here:

Renegade Doppelganger.

Yeah, I know. Seriously though, this little critter is GREAT in Bant Aggro in general, but the Survival build absolutely abuses his ability. The best part is, he isn't essential to your plans but he MUST be dealt with by your opponent. He's a second Vengevine when you bring one back turn 3 or 4, he's an extra RWM or Goyf that swings the turn you play the original, or at very least, he's an extra Heirarch to give you another Exalted trigger or that extra mana for a StP or Brainstorm.

I know this choice will get dumped on in this thread, but you should honestly test it before you blow it off.

[Fasbi]

But without Survival you can't find him nor you are able to cast a creature every turn to make him usefull. Or do I miss something?

And for 2 mana I want to cast the Goyf directly and not the Doppelganger who does nothing. He can't even block. :/

[Waikiki]

I don't even see why I would want this ability. Isnt a 5th goyf better ?

[Kuma]

I finished in 54th place at GP Columbus with Bant Survival, winning $200 and one pro point. I started day one 7-0, finishing 7-2. Day two I went 4-3, for an 11-5-0 overall record.

If anyone was there, I was the tall, skinny guy with the Pittsburgh Pirates cap and Leafeon ears.

http://ahuynguyen.com/files/images/Leafeon.png

My list:

4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Meddling Mage
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Loyal Retainers

4 Force of Will
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard:

4 Path to Exile
3 Dueling Grounds
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Gilded Drake
1 Trygon Predator

Round 1: Bye

Round 2: Bgw Aggro w/ Aether Vial --- Win 2-0

Round 3: Mono Blue Merfolk --- Win 2-1

Round 4: Eva Green w/ Pernicious Deed --- Win 2-1

Round 5: New Horizons --- Win 2-1

Round 6: Ubg Jace Control --- Win 2-1

Round 7: Rb Goblins --- Win 2-1

Round 8: Uw Merfolk --- Lose 1-2

Round 9: New Horizons --- Lose 0-2

Day two

Round 10: Bant Aggro w/ Jace --- Win 2-0

Round 11: Aluren Combo --- Win 2-0

Round 12: Supreme Blue --- Lose 0-2

Round 13: Enchantress --- Lose 1-2

Round 14: Excalibur --- Win 2-1

Round 15: Natural Order/Eureka.deck --- Lose 0-2

Round 16: Show and Tell/Sneak Attack.deck --- Win 2-0

If anyone wants more info on a particular round or rounds let me know, but I'm not writing a full report.

I was seated next to majikal round five. I mentioned to someone that I was Kuma on The Source, and he introduced himself as majikal and asked me if I was playing what he thought I was. I said "yes, and from your shuffling it looks like you are too." We talked a lot about Bant Survival, and it was a pleasure to meet him. I know he was pulling for me day two.

The Spellstutter Sprites were terrible in 14 out of 16 rounds. Consider them cut. Oddly enough, I found myself really wanting Wonder in 5-7 rounds. I learned that there are a lot of situations, especially against blue decks, where being able to fly just ends the game. It would have been great for killing all the Jace, the Mind Sculptors and flying over all the Knights of the Reliquary. Those cards are really on the rise. I would have won the Enchantress match at a minimum.

I think we need more cards to deal with CounterTop, Jace, and KotR. After talking to majikal, I'm leaning towards replacing the Sprites with Wonder and two Jaces. Jace deals with all three of those strategies and is generally excellent, especially with unlimited shuffle effects via Survival. Other possibilities are another Qasali Pridemage and a Karakas. I might cut a Faerie Macabre and a Trygon Predator for some Krosan Grips as well.

[Waikiki]

Congratulations on your finish! How exactly did enchantress beat you? I faced 2 enchantress deck in madrid and I got the feeling that matchup was a bye for me.
Glad someone else also likes the jaces ;) They are doing great for me.

This is the build I'm testing recently:

// Lands
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [PT] Forest (2)
1 [PT] Island (3)
1 [PT] Plains (3)
2 [A] Savannah
1 [A] Tundra

// Creatures
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
1 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
3 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite / [PS] Meddling mage

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TO] Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [EVE] Cold-Eyed Selkie
SB: 1 [BOK] Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
SB: 1 [MM] Dawnstrider
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [DIS] Trygon Predator

[Kuma]

Congratulations on your finish! How exactly did enchantress beat you? I faced 2 enchantress deck in madrid and I got the feeling that matchup was a bye for me.

In my experience, it's very favorable for us, but always a nail-biter.

Game one I had a fast aggro hand and beat him down to seven when he resolves Moat. Luckily, I topdecked a Survival, pitched the Squee in my hand and got a Qasali Pridemage for the win.

Game two I drop a turn two Survival, but he plays a Pithing Needle. Before I can recover he has Solitary Confinement active.

Game three I stick an early Meddling Mage on Enchantress's Presence (he tells me after the game that he had two in hand when I cast it!). I start beating him down, but he casts an Argothian Enchantress and starts to recover. At five live he resolves a Moat, but I have a Kira, Great Glass-Spinner that can still attack him. I take him to one with Kira, but he mises a Sigil of the Empty Throne and plays a Wild Growth to create a blocker. I don't draw an answer, and before I can he plays a Sterling Grove and needles Qasali Pridemage taking away all my outs.

He was a really cool guy, and I hope he did good.

[majikal]

Congrats on the finish Kuma! It was great meeting you!

I ended 6-1-2 at the end of day one, missing out on day 2 by 1 point due to a terrible play error in round 5, wherein I somehow thought the Sword of Light and Shadow my Zoo opponent had on his Knight was a Sword of Fire and Ice, and I went all in with my Goyfs with a Path to Exile in hand, ending the match in a draw. Note to self - get more sleep before then next Legacy GP. :(

My other draw was against Lands, and my loss was to another play error against Goblins. I'm pretty much my own worst enemy, it seems.

I don't remember the details of all my matchups due to the heavy amount of drinking I did during the rest of the weekend, but a few notes that I managed to take seem to indicate that after my round 1 bye, I played against 2 Zoo Decks, New Horizons, White Stax, Goblins, 2 Lands decks, and Faeries, not necessarily in that order.

Not a terrible record for my first GP though. I ended up in 146th place with the following list:

4x Misty Rainforest
4x Windswept Heath
4x Tropical Island
2x Savannah
1x Karakas
2x Forest
1x Island
1x Plains

4x Noble Hierarch
4x Rhox War Monk
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Meddling Mage
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Loyal Retainers
1x Wonder

4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

SB:
3x Path to Exile
3x Spell Pierce
3x Cold-Eyed Selkie <---- didn't see a single Counterbalance deck all day. Weird. It got there one match against New Horizons though.
2x Faerie Macabre
1x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1x Gilded Drake
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

Some notes I did manage to take:

Emrakul, Faerie Macabre, and Spell Pierce in vs. Lands, Rhox War Monk, Wonder, and a StP out. Vendilion Clique is great in this match because you can steal Loam after they dredge it. Meddling Mage names Loam first, then the second one on Explosives. Emrakul or Jace are your win conditions in this match.

Faeries matchup was won with a combination of Jace and V. Clique + Karakas keeping SSS + Jitte off of its counters.

Jace makes the Zoo matchup ridiculously easy as long as you don't misplay, thereby solving a problem that I have had since the beginning.

Cold-Eyed Selkie continues to be a dick beating against New Horizons, but sadly that was the only matchup I got to use it in.

I think I really took away a lot of lessons from this event, and I am going to work really hard at tightening up my play skills. I think this deck is still a very good choice for the current meta, with the tools to beat absolutely everything as long as you know what to do and don't fuck up.

Props:
-Kuma for the great discussions on Bant Survival.
-David Gearheart for being hilarious. This guy is seriously funny, and it was awesome to meet him.
-Hannah Murray for agreeing to alter my set of Survivals! I can't wait to see them!
-Christopher Moeller for altering my Meddling Mages to look like Dr. Doom!

Slops:
-The dealer who got Hannah Murray ejected from the event for having prices on her alters.
-The guy playing Goyf Sligh who one-shotted me with double Price of Progress + topdecked Fireblast for a whopping 20 during one of the Grinders on Friday after I stabilized the board and had him dead the next turn.
-The guy who stole one of my Metalworkers during a side event and caused me to play the rest of the event with a basic Forest until I could buy another one.

All in all a great weekend, and I hope to see everyone I met at future events!

[zalachan]

I hope you post your Mages and Survivals online for us to see them! Otherwise, congrats to both of you, i hope that results and experiences from Columbus will rekindle the discussion around here.

[Waikiki]

Congratulations for your record. Bit unlucky losing to yourself but hey thats the biggest problem of survival decks ;)

Nice to read you liked the jaces! They have been strong for me aswell.

How was wonder working out for ya?

[Dark Zero]

Congratulations for your results Kuma and majikal!

Here is a little summary from my failure at the "Sommermercadiade" in Hamburg (Lichtwarkhaus, 131 players, 8 rounds) with the following 75:

//Lands: (19)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Tundra
1 Island
1 Plains

//Spells: (18)
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ponder

//Creatures: (23)
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
3 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Trygon Predator
1 Sower of Temptation

//Sideboard:
3 Path to Exile
3 Spell Pierce
2 Krosan Grip
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Meddling Mage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Kira, Great Glass Spinner

Round 1: Zoo w/ Hierarch and equipment - Draw 1-1
Round 2: Lands -> Lose 0-1
Round 3: CounterTop -> Win 2-0
Round 4: Bantaggro -> Draw 1-1
Round 5: CounterTop -> Lose 1-2
Round 6: Enchantress -> Win 2-1
Round 7: Faeries -> Lose 1-2

After round 7 I dropped due to hunger and went to the shop to fetch some food.
If anyone wants to know more about the rounds ask for it. ;D
The loss against lands should have been a draw actually, but I reminded my opponent to play a little faster to late, I guess. :(

After this event I came to conclusions about some of the choices:
I really really want MM main. Sprite was pretty underwhelming the whole day and I had a hard time against CT and lands, both MU's where MM really shines. I will cut the Sower from Maindeck (maybe putting a Gilded Drake in the SB instead) and the two Ponder to play the 4th War Monk and have 2 slots open.

I like the idea of playing Jace 2.0 in here and definately will give it a try (if I can afford two copies till my next event in Hannover).
In this Meta there is a lot of CounterTop, Bantaggro (Tempobant, NO Bant), so I want to tweak my sideboard for those MU's more. I think Selkie is a house here, so I'll probably go for something like that:

3 Path
3 Pierce
3 Selkie
2 Macabre
1 Kira
1 Llawan
1 Drake
1 Canonist

any suggestions?

[majikal]

How was wonder working out for ya?
At this point I don't think I would cut it for anything. The only matchup I felt the need to side it out was Lands, while it was extremely useful against Zoo, Goblins, Faeries, and New Horizons.

[aceracerff]

Hey guys,
My name's jordan, i've been lurking this thread and playing bant survival for all of 2010 now. I am from columbus, so obviously played in the GP. I was wearing an OSU jersey =P. Went 5-3 drop....

I played 20 lands this time around and still had the wasteland blues, so now I am considering adding a birds of paradise to the list. Also, is there a consensus on jace? I have never tried it and am looking forward to testing with it. The birds also becomes more justified at that point i feel, now that the deck has actual 4 drops that arent survival -> rwm.
I think I will be playing around with this list:

Creatures(20):
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Trygon Predator
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
0 Eternal Witness - should be 1

Spells(20):
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Survival of the Fittest
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands(20):
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

SB:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Path to Exile
3 Spell Pierce
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Llawan
1 Meddling Mage
1 Genesis

Spell Snares are just a personal fav.... ive been running them in the deck forever. They were pretty good at the GP, i nabbed a few balances, a few survivals, and hit an instigator after forcing turn 1 lackey for the win once.

[majikal]

I think you need to focus on making the deck more consistent without Survival of the Fittest. When you start applying the "toolbox" approach, you actually weaken your deck by making it overly reliant on Survival. At most, you should be running 2 utility slots, including Squee. The other one I consider a "flex" slot and can include something like Eternal Witness, Kira, or Wonder.

Re: Spell Snare - while it can be randomly good, I prefer a more proactive approach, since these niche counters are so conditional that I find them stuck in my hand more often than not. Spell Snare in particular suffers from this, since a lot of the things you need to counter now cost 3 or 4 (Knight of the Reliquary, Deed, Terravore, Jace, etc). Meddling Mage fills this slot much better since if you can't come up with a better use for it you can always beat face with it.

[ivanpei]

Hi, I have all the components (except Kira) and am thinking of playing it during the weekend tourney (this or countertop thopters). Ok, here's my dilemma, everyone KNOWS I will be fielding countertop thopter this weekend I am expecting any deck with green to be packing grips as a 4 of sideboard and lots of pridemages main. I thought of laughing in their faces and playing new horizons, but I don't find the deck's curve and lack of gas to my liking. Here's what I plan to play and card choice explanations:

4 Force
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare
2 Ponder
4 Survival
4 Swords

4 Noble
4 Goyf
4 Rhox
1 Pridemage
1 Trygon
1 Sower
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Squee
1 Iona

2 Jace TMS

4 Misty
4 Heath
4 Trop
3 Savanna
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

Some questions, should I play a karakas instead of a savanna/plains? How have those who have been testing it find it? I think trying to draw a one of is pretty difficult when you need it, and it doesn't make green/blue. That said, I've seen reanimator and a show and tell deck in my meta, so it might be a good choice. I like snares, I've always preferred a couple extra counterspells in bant sur. The 2 flex are Jace TMS, but since our aggro MU is already pretty good with 4 swords, 4 monks, 4 goyf, I think we need it to shore up the control MU. Since I am expecting infinite enchantment hate postboard, I want to be able to side out the entire survival package (4 Survival, Retainers, Iona, Squee).

With that in mind, my sb:
3 Spell Pierce
1 Jace
3 Path
2 Grip
1 Faerie macabre
2 Tormod's crypt
1 Relic of progenitus
1 Gaddock Teeq
1 Flex... (Clique?)

Ok I need suggestions for that last flex slot, and maybe some SB changes. I'm not expecting merfolk (I don't know anyone who has it, and the guy building it hasn't finished yet) so that last slot should be llawan in a general meta. I play just 1 Faerie macabre because I don't want my hate to be survival dependant. Is that wise? Or is faerie good enough vs dredge? I think It'll be clique for this flex slot because its good in my survival package swapping plan and also excellent vs combo which is a pretty weak MU. (One guy has TES and another guy can build belcher).

My boarding plan VS Countertop/any blue with green for grip:
-Survival package (7 cards), + 3 Spell Pierce + 1 Jace + 2 Grip + 1 Clique (Paths instead of grips in against non-countertop bant aggro)

Any of you guys have problems vs grip? Also, can you cast survival, maintain priority, pitch dude, maintain priority, pitch again in response, so you milk something out of it before it gets gripped? So I end up pitching 2 cards right, since its a cost and not on the resolution of the ability?

[majikal]

Only 18 creatures? You'll have a very hard time activating Survival with that number. Ponder is the worst slot in the deck. I would replace it with some more dudes.

I also don't recommend Spell Snare for reasons I've detailed earlier in the thread, but if you feel like you must have them then more power to you.

Re: Karakas - I don't think it's very useful unless you have MD Vendilion Cliques. If you do, though, it's golden. I've won many rounds on the back of that interaction.

[ivanpei]

I'm guessing 18 isn't enough? What would you recommend if I were to cut snare for 2 more dudes and another ponder? I just like utilizing my 1st turn mana. In this case having Brainstorm, Noble and Ponder is very useful, it also digs for survival. So I'm guessing about 20-21 dudes is optimal? I occasionally have insufficient dudes, maybe I'm playing too many spells. I can see + 1 Pridemage and + 1 Clique/knight of the reliquary. Any other good maindeck beaters?

[Waikiki]

I also would not board survival out in the counter top match. I do board it out vs aggro decks.

[Jak]

You know that updated primer I told you about that would be up in a few days months ago? Well I have time recently to finish it so here it is mostly. I still have stuff that needs finishing, but here is a large chunk of it. Let me know how it looks and if anything needs to be changed, added, removed, etc. I started it a while ago, took a break and just updated a lot of what I did so I might have missed a few things that need updated. Let me know! I'll keep working on it.

[ivanpei]

VERY good work on the opening post. I forgot that Llawan deals with progenitus, now I have to find space for her somewhere in the board with all the show and tell/natural order going around. Ok did some more testing yesterday night. Spell snare is as majikal says, very meh... So I've cut them, you honestly don't really leave one mana open very often. I've found ponder to be very useful, I'm surprised very little lists run them, I've gone - 3 snare, + 2 ponder, + 1 Pridemage maindeck.

Also the list I saw in the opening post has seven 3 drops (4 warmonk, 2 Clique, 1 Trygon). Initially I tried + 1 ponder, + 1 Clique, + 1 pridemage. I've found that I would much rather be doing other things (like warmonking or survivaling) with 3 mana then clique. I understand its a beating vs control, but I'm playing 2 Jace TMS in my list and that should be good enough. I've found Jace to be useful against aggro too, when sitting behind a goyf/monk staring at a couple of weenies, Jace breaks that deadlock (like survival) very well. At worst, it brainstorms and soaks up damage, which is not terrible.

With only 4 Forces MD, the last flex in the board is now the 4th Spell pierce, this deck really needs serious combo hate in the board. I run a teeq in the board as my hate bear. Is cannonist better? I can't cantrip + dude on my turn which might be a problem. As for teeq, I can't protect him from bounce with force. Cheers, Ivan.

[aceracerff]

Looks great Jak!

you could probably have /Dueling Grounds after your ghostly prison/propaganda SB slot discussion. has that card been discussed and compared to the other two on this thread at all?
i find that i am almost ALWAYS just attacking with 1 dude for exalted triggers and having solid D as opposed to more guys... so there isn't really a drawback. the discussion then becomes making your opponent pay 2/4 to attack with 1/2 guys OR only ever letting your opponent attack with 1... but for free.

[swarm187]

I'm actually very impressed with how this deck has been performing lately. I threw a substandard list together for GP Columbus and promptly got crushed, but after tinkering with it and rereading this thread, I've really come to like it much more than the UG Survival Madness build that's catching on.
I feel like Kira, Great Glass-Spinner should be in here somewhere. Even as a one-of Survival target in the sideboard, she CRUSHES any deck that relies on spot removal to defend against aggro strategies.
I've also been toying with the idea of running the white Leyline in my sideboard. Leyline of Sanctity is a great way to deal with a ton of problematic cards/strategies.

@aceracerff- I've been testing Dueling Grounds in my sideboard, but it hasn't really wowed me yet. For my money, Ghostly Prisons/Propagandas are just a little bit better.

[dan who?]

Kira is indeed good against certain strategies. I run her as a 1-of in my sideboard and many others do as well.

I'm not sure about the white Leyline. I wouldn't even know what I'd like to cut to add them to my sideboard as you'd want to play a set in order to get one in your opening hand. I can see it being good against some strategies but I don't know if it would be worth it.

[Esper3k]

Hey guys, it's been awhile since I've posted on here, but I wanted to let you know I've still been playing the deck and loving it!

I ended up finishing 13th at the Legacy Champs here at GenCon (197) players, trying to represent for our deck! I was 6-1 going into the final round of Swiss, but sadly making T8 was not meant to be (I got blown out by an absolutely amazing Landstill deck).

Also, to our deck's great sadness, I had to play Kuma in Round 2! :(

I'll post a tournament report on it later.

[Waikiki]

congratulations on your finish! Looking forward to the report!

[majikal]

Congrats on the finish! Wish I could have been there to wreck some face too!

[Esper3k]

Ahh the Legacy Champs tournament. This is the tournament that I had really been trying to prepare for and had the highest hopes of doing well at. Of course, this just means I'll be more dream crushed if I do poorly.

I played Bant Survival, the same deck that I have been playing these past 8 months or so.

Here's the final decklist I settled on:

Main Deck:

4x Noble Hierarch
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Rhox War Monk
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1x Gilded Drake
1x Trygon Predator
1x Meddling Mage
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Loyal Retainers

4x Misty Rainforest
4x Windswept Heath
4x Tropical Island
3x Savannah
1x Tundra
2x Forest
1x Island
1x Plains

Sideboard:
4x Counterbalance
3x Krosan Grip
2x Path to Exile
2x Faerie Macabre
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1x Eternal Witness

197 players, 8 rounds of swiss.

Round 1 - Swiss (vs Daniel)

Daniel was pretty quiet and businesslike. He's playing UW CounterThopters.

Game 1: I resolve an early Tarmogoyf and go for Survival, which resolves. However, Daniel gets CounterTop online and I am forced to just beat him down with a 4/5 Goyf. I start testing the waters with a Pridemage and a War Monk, but he reveals a Thopter Foundry and Crucible of Worlds. He has 2 Tops on the board, and I bait him into flipping one when I play a Hierarch, so I know he probably has CMC 1, 2, 3 on the top of his library. However, instead of bringing the Top back next turn, he gets antsy and plays the Thopter Foundry! I'm afraid he might be sandbagging a 2 drop, so I test the waters with a Goyf... and it resolves! I then drop a Pridemage, which gets through and he dies shortly afterwards.

-4 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Gilded Drake
+2 Faerie Macabre (to stop any Sword of the Meek shenanigans
+3 Krosan Grip

Game 2: I have double Survival in my hand and slam down the first one on turn 2, expecting it to get countered. Holy crap, it resolves! I go for Iona and have Retainers in my hand, ready to cast it on turn 4... when he Enlightented Tutors up a Humility. Fuck. So, I go for plan B, which consists of playing a 1/1 creature every turn. He tries to get an EE down to blow up Survival, but I have the Force for that. He Enlightened Tutors up a Relic of Progenitus and pops it, which I don't care that much about since my Goyf is still 1/1. I peel Krosan Grip off the top and immediately pop the Humility and he's dead when I attack.

1-0 (2-0)

Round 2 - Swiss (vs Ben)

Ben is Kuma on the Source, one of the posters on the Bant Survival thread.

Game 1: He confirms what he's playing when he drops a T3 Survival with Tropical Island and Savannahs in play. I drop a Qasali Pridemage on my turn and immediately attack with my Goyf, stack Exalted trigger, then pop his Survival with my Pridemage. I then drop my own Survival and go for Iona. He stalls for a turn with a Clique to put Iona on the bottom of my library, but ultimately doesn't have an answer for Iona when I Survival her back out.

Game 2: We both have interesting sideboarding strategies here. I board out most of my removal and go for 2x Faerie Macabre and 3x Krosan Grip. Ben reveals after the match that he boarded out the Iona/Retainers combo and brought in all his Paths to try and control my board and planned to steal Iona with Gilded Drake. T2, he drops Survival, which resolves. I drop my own Survival on T2, which also resolves. T3, he passes the turn, trying to play around Faerie Macabre (which I did have) and on my turn, I drop a land and Grip his Survival, making Ben very sad. I get out Iona on White and he can't find Gilded Drake before Iona gets there.

Ben and I talk shop after the match and I'm sad to have had to play against someone also trying to represent for our deck so early on, especially such a great guy.

2-0 (2-0)

Round 3 - Swiss (vs Anthony)

Anthony was playing straight up Show & Tell with Lotus Petals and Noble Hierarch.

Game 1: Anthony leads off with T1 Hierarch and starts dropping Lotus Petals. I'm not really sure what he's playing, so I continue onto my plan with a T1 Hierarch into T2 Rhox War Monk with Force of Will and Gilded Drake in my hand in case he drops anything particularly tasty to steal. I drop a Sensei's Divining Top and start the pancake flipper beatdown and at 11 life, he goes for the Show and Tell. I have a Trygon Predator at the top of my library and he has 3 cards in his hand after the Show & Tell, so I pop the Top and let Show & Tell resolve, putting the Predator into play. I didn't drop the Gilded Drake because if he dropped Dream Halls or Progenitus, I didn't want to lose the Drake. On the other hand, if he drops Emrakul, I still have the Drake. Well, the giant Eldrazi hit the table and I played the Drake on my turn, which resolved and traded with Emrakul. Anthony looked at his next card, then scooped.

Game 2: I take out my removal and board in the Counterbalances. I keep a one land hand with Force x2, Counterbalance, Gilded Drake, Brainstorm, Sensei's Divining Top, Tropical Island. Anthony drops a T1 Hierarch and passes. I drop my Trop and find out that he also kept a 1 land hand on his turn when he attacks me with his Hierarch. EOT, I Brainstorm seeing no lands, ugh. I drop the Top and spin the top on my next upkeep into a land. Meanwhile, Anthony has dropped an Ancient Tomb and then a City of Traitors, but has done nothing with them. I Top into seeing 2 Survivals and try to cast them on my next two turns. The first one meets a hardcast Force, which I let go. The second one meets another hardcast Force, which I Force back, which gets Misdirected by him. I consider FOrcing again, but I want to keep it just in case he goes for Show & Tell. After a few turns of draw-go (during which I get a warning for forgetting to draw a card), I get down a second Tropical Island and get Counterbalance online. I then drop a Goyf and spend the rest of the game keeping a Rhox War Monk on the top of my library and he doesn't even try to Show & Tell before he dies.

3-0 (6-0)

Round 4 - Swiss (vs Lee)

Lee is playing Mono White Stax. I haven't actually played this particular matchup much, but I have a bunch of experience playing against the deck (my good friend is Brian Peters, who won tbe SCG Philly 5k last year with Mono White Stax).

Game 1: I open a hand with plenty of land, Survival, and Force backup, but no T1 Hierarch. Lee opens with T1, Ancient Tomb into Chalice @ 1, which I let resolve. I drop a fetch land. T2, he goes for a Trinisphere, but I Force that. T2 I drop Survival, then set up Squee on my T3 for Iona on T4 (on his T3, he drops Lodestone Golem). T4, I play my 4th land with Retainers in my hand and bring Iona back. Iona ] Lodestone Golem, who knew?

Game 2: I have a pretty solid hand with Force, Noble Hierarch, Tarmogoyf, Rhox War Monk, 3 lands. He plays a Plains and passes the turn. I fetch a basic Forest and play my Hierarch. T2, he rips Suppression Field (he told me he drew it here) and plays it off of the Plains and a Mishra's Factory, which I let resolve. I play another fetch on my turn and pay 2 to fetch a basic Island when he plays Mox Diamond (pitching Wasteland) and Crucible of Worlds, which I let resolve. I'm not terribly worried about the Wasteland because I have fetches and Hierarchs and plenty of basic lands. I drop a Goyf on my turn and another fetch. He spends his mana to drop a Magus of the Tabernacle, which I Force. I drop a Hierarch and Qasali Pridemage on my turn and go to town on his face with my Goyf. Lee drops an Oblivion Ring on my Pridemage. Goyf gets in there again. He starts to chump my Goyf with his Factory and replay it, but I have a Krosan Grip for his Crucible after he chumps the Goyf. In a move of desperation, he goes for Armageddon - he has Mox Diamond, Flagstones of Trokair, Oblivion Ring (with my Pridemage) while I have my Goyf and 2x Hierarch. I have Force and Brainstorm in my hand, so I let the Armageddon resolve (he's at 8 life). He fetches a Plains with his Flagstones and drops his last card in his hand, a City of Traitors. Goyf gets in for 6 next turn, he draws, and concedes.

4-0 (8-0)

Round 5 - Swiss (vs Stephen)

Stephen is the manager of Madness Comics in Dallas, Texas, so it's nice to see another Texan doing so well. He's playing the UGB Mosswort Bridge/Dreadnought/Stifle deck.

Game 1: He Show & Tell's on T3, I have Force, but he has Force too and Emrakul rapes my face.

Game 2: I board in Counterbalances and I have a T2 Goyf, T3 Goyf, T4 Rhox War Monk. Sadly, T1 Thoughtseize (taking my Force) and he has T3 Phyrexian Dreadnaught. My last turn to live, I rip Qasali Pridemage like a champ, which resolves, and I pop his Dreadnaught, which immediately powers up my Goyfs to 5/6's and I tear him a new one.

Game 3: I keep a slow hand, but has double Counterbalance and Path to Exile. His T1 Thoughtseize takes my Path and I Brainstorm into a Swords to Plowshares to deal with his T2 Dreadnaught. His Thoughtseize on T3 reveals 3 Counterbalances in my hand and he shakes his head. I drop both Counterbalances and leave a fetchland out. I proceed to draw a bunch of lands and a Qasali Pridemage, which starts to chip away at his life. Stephen gets down Mosswort Bridge, then goes for a Dreadnaught. I stack both CB triggers, reveal a land on the first flip, crack a fetch, reveal another fetchland on the second flip. He goes to activate Mosswort Bridge, and I pop his Dreadnaught with my Pridemage in response. I continue the beatdown with the Rhox War Monk, drawing more lands and he then goes for Show & Tell. First Counterbalance reveals a Meddling Mage, crack a fetchland... and reveal land. Emrakul hits the board and I'm quickly dead afterwards.

4-1 (9-2)

Round 6 - Swiss (vs David)

David is one of the guys from my group in Houston - sucks that we meet each other in a round where someone is going to get knocked out of T8 contention! David is playing Enchantress with Words of Wind.

Game 1: David mulls to 5 on the play. I have a pretty aggro hand with Hierarch and Pridemage in my hand. I peel the Trygon Predator and play it on T2. David O-Rings it on T3, but I drop the Pridemage and bring the Predator back with it and David can't really recover.

Game 2: This game was pretty brutal. I get out a fast Goyf, Force and Enchantress effect, then drop a Meddling Mage on Sigil of the Empty Throne (I have Grip in my hand in case of Humility). David ended up having 2x Sigil as the last 2 cards in his hand, to his frustration. He drops an Argothian Enchantress and tries to get back into the game, but can't get going before I overrun him with creatures.

5-1 (11-2)

Round 7 - Swiss (vs Scott)

Scott is playing Merfolk, a Ub list, but I'm not entirely sure what the black is for. I'm assuming it's Saito's list, but I never saw any Perish or Nature's Ruin in our games.

Game 1: I keep a pretty decent hand of Hierarch, Goyf, War Monk, Swords and lands, but no Force. He drops an Island and T1 Aether Vial and I know what deck he's playing. I drop a T2 War Monk, which gets Dazed, but my T3 War Monk resolves and I start swinging for 4 lifelink a turn. I think I'm doing pretty well until things quickly spin out of control when he Vials in Adept, into Adept, into Adept, into Standstill, which chains into 3x Merrow Reejery. Oh god, I just lost :(

Game 2: Board out Gilded Drake, 1x Pridemage, Meddling Mage, and bring in 2x Path to Exile and Llawan. Game 2, I resolve Survival, then get out Iona and my opponent scoops so we can quickly go to game 3.

Game 3: I open LLawan, Noble Hierarch, Force of Will, Rhox War Monk, and 3 lands. Scott doesn't have a super fast start and I go for a T3 Rhox with 1 mana open for Daze, prompting him to Force the Rhox. I then next turn play Llawan, which resolves. Scott peels an Aether Vial, but I draw a Qasali Pridemage to match it. A Goyf follows up my team and I take the game.

6-1 (13-3)

Round 8 - Swiss (vs John)

After looking at the standings, it was determined that I couldn't draw in. John is playing a Landstill deck, which is a matchup I don't really have much experience against.

Game 1: He has double Swords for my Goyf and Rhox War Monk and double Counterspell for my two Survivals. He then sticks a Jace, manlands, and Standstill and I can't catch back up.

I board in the Counterbalance package - it's the only thing I can think of that can really do anything against his deck. I also bring in 2 Faerie Macabre just in case he gets graveyard recursion going with his Crucibles and Academy Ruins.

Game 2: I mull to 5 on the play and keep a pretty slow hand, but at least had 2 lands. Well, my first land gets Wastelanded (had no fetches and no basics) and he just beats me down with manlands under Standstill. When I'm finally forced to break Standstill, he discards a Brainstorm (after the match, he tells me he drew 3x Counterspell). I try and dump my hand and run into a bunch of Counterspells. He drops Elspeth on his turn and starts cranking out dudes. I land a Tarmogoyf, but against his horde of Soldiers, 2x Mishra Factory, and Faerie Conclave, I don't even have a chance at breaking through and I quickly lose.

6-2 (13-5)

I was pretty embarrassed by how poorly I did in the bubble match. Sad times! That Landstill deck was pretty amazing though. I ended up finishing 13th place. My friend, David (who I played in Round 6), finished 12th, so we're going to pack wars it up with our packs when we get home!

[Kuma]

Congrats again, Esper3k! I'm glad you were able to represent Bant Survival so well. How did pack wars go? Did you crack anything good?

Couple of things about the primer:

--- Why no mention/discussion of Dueling Grounds? The card is worlds better than Propaganda/Ghostly Prison, especially if you're running Wonder. No matter how much mana they acquire, they'll never be able to swing with more than one creature. This is especially relevant in the Merfolk match where their dudes are usually unblockable. They also can't gang block your guys, allowing you to whittle away their life points or force unfavorable trades in combat.

--- I've found Meddling Mage to be worse than Vendilion Clique in the Zoo match. If they really need to cast what you named they'll just sling one of their 1,000,000 removal spells at it. Mage's 2/2 body is also useless. While you're not often going to make good use of Vendilion Clique's ability, it's a 3/1 with flash which allows you to use it as pseudo removal. Seeing their hand can also be important when trying to set up Iona. The evasion is also nice when you're racing.

--- Since everyone is running different lists, why not do the sideboarding in more general terms? For example, Zoo: - Force of Will, - Meddling Mage, - Vendilion Clique, - Trygon Predator, + Path to Exile, + Kitchen Finks, + Kira, Great Glass-Spinner.

[Jak]

Couple of things about the primer:

--- Why no mention/discussion of Dueling Grounds? The card is worlds better than Propaganda/Ghostly Prison, especially if you're running Wonder. No matter how much mana they acquire, they'll never be able to swing with more than one creature. This is especially relevant in the Merfolk match where their dudes are usually unblockable. They also can't gang block your guys, allowing you to whittle away their life points or force unfavorable trades in combat.

I already added that in and will update it shortly. Like I said, I started it a while ago so I missed things.


--- I've found Meddling Mage to be worse than Vendilion Clique in the Zoo match. If they really need to cast what you named they'll just sling one of their 1,000,000 removal spells at it. Mage's 2/2 body is also useless. While you're not often going to make good use of Vendilion Clique's ability, it's a 3/1 with flash which allows you to use it as pseudo removal. Seeing their hand can also be important when trying to set up Iona. The evasion is also nice when you're racing.

I agree. I don't know why my thoughts changed because I always liked Clique with Jitte coming in.


--- Since everyone is running different lists, why not do the sideboarding in more general terms? For example, Zoo: - Force of Will, - Meddling Mage, - Vendilion Clique, - Trygon Predator, + Path to Exile, + Kitchen Finks, + Kira, Great Glass-Spinner.

I can do this. It would be much easier since my sideboard always changes anyway and it woud definitely be better for other people.

Thank you a ton Kuma. I can use allt he help and motivation I can get.

[Esper3k]

Thanks, Kuma! We'll be pack warsing it up this Sunday at our next Legacy tournament :)

I'll probably take a brief break from this deck for awhile (I've been playing it almost straight for about 8 months now), but I'm still in love with it.

Need to figure out a way to beat Landstill now though...

What I have always loved most about the deck: I can go 7 straight games (G2R4 -> G1R6) and still be 4-3 in games without it. It seems like any other Survival deck just dies if they don't resolve Survival.

[majikal]

Need to figure out a way to beat Landstill now though...

Cold-Eyed Selkie + Emrakul do the job for me.

[dan who?]

Cold-Eyed Selkie + Emrakul do the job for me.

Emrakul has been holding it's weight for me against decks like Landstill but how has Cold-Eyed Selkie been overall for you? My sideboard is pretty packed but Cold-Eyed Selkie seems interesting and I'd like to test it. In what match-ups have you been siding it in against to help?

[Jak]

Emrakul has been holding it's weight for me against decks like Landstill but how has Cold-Eyed Selkie been overall for you? My sideboard is pretty packed but Cold-Eyed Selkie seems interesting and I'd like to test it. In what match-ups have you been siding it in against to help?

Anything blue.

[majikal]

What Jak said. A lot of the time one swing with a couple of exalted triggers is enough to put you far enough ahead to pull the win out.

[dan who?]

Understandable. I can see it being very good against CounterTop or other Bant-like decks but I'm rather curious as to what your testing with it against Merfolk is (assuming you side it in against them). My initial thought is it would be pretty good. It gets pumped by LoA and is unblockable against them, but would something like dueling grounds or more removal be better against them?

[ivanpei]

Excellent job and write up esper! I am very curious and excited about your top main and balance board plan. How have you liked the MD tops? This deck has serious issues vs combo and the balance plan in the board seems to be very good! Balance is also good in the countertop MU as you have 8 must answer enchantments. Do the tops give you the gas you need when you dont draw/resolve survival? Have you tested/ missed Jace at all? I could see going - 4 ponders, + 3 top + 1 kira in my list. With tops, I think I can cut my 2 Jaces for something else. And for gilded drake, were there times when you drew it and it was pretty terrible? Would you swap it for sower, or is the cheaper mana cost more important? Thanks!

[Esper3k]

Excellent job and write up esper! I am very curious and excited about your top main and balance board plan. How have you liked the MD tops? This deck has serious issues vs combo and the balance plan in the board seems to be very good! Balance is also good in the countertop MU as you have 8 must answer enchantments. Do the tops give you the gas you need when you dont draw/resolve survival? Have you tested/ missed Jace at all? I could see going - 4 ponders, + 3 top + 1 kira in my list. With tops, I think I can cut my 2 Jaces for something else. And for gilded drake, were there times when you drew it and it was pretty terrible? Would you swap it for sower, or is the cheaper mana cost more important? Thanks!

Thanks!

I've been really happy with the MD Tops. I've tried other things instead of them (NO/Progenitus package for more power, Ponder for more blue spells, etc.) but keep going back to it. I run 8 maindeck fetchlands, so you rarely have problems shuffling stuff away. God forbid you get Survival + Top out - shuffle whenever I want? Sign me up!

I haven't really tested Jace, but I've been trying to stay away from 4 drops (even Rafiq seemed too much for me in testing) since they feel so clunky. Yes, 4 drops make it harder for opponents to CB you, but between Pridemage and Trygon main, you should be able to get one down through a CB game 1. Post-board, you bring in 3x Grip, which should be fine.

What's funny is that recently, it seems like Storm combo has been less popular (vs slower Show & Tell combo), which makes CB from the board worse. However, I felt that since I was playing Tops already, CB is the best anti-combo card you can have, even against Show & Tell (we have plenty of 3 drops). In the Legacy Champs, it locked one Show & Tell opponent out of the game while in another game, I got 2 on the board, but couldn't flip worth crap even with fetchlands out, sadly.

Gilded Drake has been fine for me. I absolutely hate losing to Emrakul and he gives you a maindeck way to answer it. The mana cost is a huge difference over Sower, imo. Remember, we are fundamentally a green deck, not a blue one, so the UU can sometimes be hard to get. Plus, you don't want your opponent killing your Sower and getting their guy back. Against Show & Tell targets, you may not even have time to get 4 mana before you have to find an answer to Emrakul. I haven't really ever had any problems with Gilded Drake - you're always going to be stealing something better than it.

[StoicAngel]

Has anyone tried running a dryad arbor in their make? It seems like it would be a good fit...fetch lands turn into survival fetchs...

[ivanpei]

I just realised you played 16 blue cards MD which is pretty low for FOW. Did you have any problems at any point because of that? I'll work on finding a gilded drake, your argument is pretty solid IMO. I don't see as much show and tell, so maybe I can lucksack my way with just Sower. I've loved drawing sower and casting it. I agree that MD Jace has been a bit slow for me too. However he's been ok, because you have enough dudes to hide Jace behind and he usually lives at least 2-3 turns. I really really like the 3 tops md. I think I'll just straight 3 tops for 3 ponders, which brings my blue count down to 17, but I think I can live with it.

@ Dryad arbor, its good in Chapin survival because it sacks to cabal therapy when you fetch it out. In bant, fetching it out does nothing, because it doesn't generate any mana the turn it comes down (summoning sickness). Sure it pitches to survival, but you really don't want to be drawing the dryad arbor.

[StoicAngel]

@ Dryad arbor, its good in Chapin survival because it sacks to cabal therapy when you fetch it out. In bant, fetching it out does nothing, because it doesn't generate any mana the turn it comes down (summoning sickness). Sure it pitches to survival, but you really don't want to be drawing the dryad arbor.

But if your using top and brainstorms this is easily fixable. I am fairly new to legacy but it just seems nice to be able to sneak in a blocker instead of sacrificing a noble heirarch to keep you threatening.

[majikal]

Sacrificing an early land drop against aggro decks seems terrible, honestly.

[Esper3k]

I just realised you played 16 blue cards MD which is pretty low for FOW. Did you have any problems at any point because of that? I'll work on finding a gilded drake, your argument is pretty solid IMO. I don't see as much show and tell, so maybe I can lucksack my way with just Sower. I've loved drawing sower and casting it. I agree that MD Jace has been a bit slow for me too. However he's been ok, because you have enough dudes to hide Jace behind and he usually lives at least 2-3 turns. I really really like the 3 tops md. I think I'll just straight 3 tops for 3 ponders, which brings my blue count down to 17, but I think I can live with it.

@ Dryad arbor, its good in Chapin survival because it sacks to cabal therapy when you fetch it out. In bant, fetching it out does nothing, because it doesn't generate any mana the turn it comes down (summoning sickness). Sure it pitches to survival, but you really don't want to be drawing the dryad arbor.

Yeah, my MD does run a relatively lower number of blue cards for FoW. However, I haven't really had it be that much of a problem. The only time it's ever really problematic is if you have something you absolutely have to stop on T1. Against most decks, even against combo, I haven't found it to be the case. Secondly, if you have an active Survival, you can just leave a G open and turn Squee into a Rhox War Monk to pitch to FoW. Post-board against Combo, you're likely boarding out the 4x Swords and bringing the 4x Counterbalance, which will help increase the blue card count.

I used to run a second MD Meddling Mage instead of the second basic Forest, but I really liked the second basic Forest. Against decks that run Wasteland, getting the double basic Forest is really helpful to be able to activate Survival and still be able to cast a green creature on the same turn.

Regarding Gilded Drake: In my experience, the only time it hasn't been good is if you're getting beaten down and you have to steal a bigger creature (like a Knight of the Reliquary or Terravore) to survive, but are still very low on life and don't have an answer to the Drake. Even then, Sower is only better if they don't have a removal spell for it. Trading with a Dark Confidant on T2 is a really powerful play that Sower just can't do.

Regarding Dryad Arbor: I've tested it in the NO/Progenitus version, but haven't really been sold on it outside of it. The problem is that if you consider it taking up a non-Land slot in your deck, there are just so many better creatures to run. If you have it take up a Land slot, again, most of the time you would rather have a dual land, fetch land, or basic land with it. The only time I can really see it being useful is if you absolutely have to have a chump blocker and you don't have anything other than a land. If you're in that situation though, I think you're pretty screwed anyways.

[median]

I've just started building this, or something similar and wanted to know the reasoning behind no E-Tutor/fauna shaman. I understand that the deck should function with out survival. But I would think you would want to maximize you chances of getting that engine working.
That being said it feels like a really intuitive list and I love it.

[Jak]

I've just started building this, or something similar and wanted to know the reasoning behind no E-Tutor/fauna shaman. I understand that the deck should function with out survival. But I would think you would want to maximize you chances of getting that engine working.
That being said it feels like a really intuitive list and I love it.

I would run more cantrips before Fauna Shaman or Enlightened Tutor. Shaman is just straight up bad and we don't rely on Survival enough to warrant him. Chapins list is much more combo oriented and Fauna Shaman can at least get it done, but it is just far too slow. Enlightened Tutor is card disadvantage which isn't necessarily bad since it goes and gets your engine, but it becomes dead late. It does offer a nice sideboard strategy but it can go in the board if you really want that.

[Esper3k]

I would run more cantrips before Fauna Shaman or Enlightened Tutor. Shaman is just straight up bad and we don't rely on Survival enough to warrant him. Chapins list is much more combo oriented and Fauna Shaman can at least get it done, but it is just far too slow. Enlightened Tutor is card disadvantage which isn't necessarily bad since it goes and gets your engine, but it becomes dead late. It does offer a nice sideboard strategy but it can go in the board if you really want that.

Pretty much my feelings on this as well.

Regarding Fauna Shaman: I was very enamored of the idea of 8 Survival effects, but in my testing, it turned out just to be way too slow. Say you drop it on T2. You then have to wait until T3 to fetch up Squee, T4 to fetch up a Goyf or RWM. It also tends to lower your blue card count as well. The only real benefit to it is that if you draw multiples it's not a dead card in your hand.

Regarding Enlightened Tutor: I'm not a huge fan of it because as Jak pointed out, it's card disadvantage. Again, it also lowers the blue card count in the deck.

[StoicAngel]

Even running fauna shaman w/ aether vial costs you a turn. And a valuble cantrip slot.

[majikal]

Fauna Shaman is just not that great in Legacy, at all. Even in that build Chapin was rocking at the GP, I watched Fauna Shaman cost him the match against Saito.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Fauna Shaman is just not that great in Legacy, at all. Even in that build Chapin was rocking at the GP, I watched Fauna Shaman cost him the match against Saito.

+1. I loved that game. Fauna Shaman is garbage. I believe with the 2 activations Chapin got to use on the Shaman he grabbed a Squee on one turn and then a bone shredder. Then he died to like 5 merfolk bashing him every turn.

[StoicAngel]

I don't see any lists using standstill. And was curious as to why not.

[majikal]

I don't see any lists using standstill. And was curious as to why not.
Are you being serious? This deck has nothing with which to abuse Standstill. You need too much green mana to play any manlands, and if you've already got board advantage, which is the only time Standstill is ever good, you are already in a position to win with this deck.

There is already an incredible amount of inevitability in the deck and Standstill just doesn't add anything at all.

[Tao]

+1. I loved that game. Fauna Shaman is garbage. I believe with the 2 activations Chapin got to use on the Shaman he grabbed a Squee on one turn and then a bone shredder. Then he died to like 5 merfolk bashing him every turn.

Yeah that clearly proves how bad he is. Other garbage cards are probably Bayou, Savannah and Aether Vial because they also didnt prevent him from getting bashed by 5 Merfolk.

[Jak]

Yeah that clearly proves how bad he is. Other garbage cards are probably Bayou, Savannah and Aether Vial because they also didnt prevent him from getting bashed by 5 Merfolk.

When you spend 4 mana over three turns and still get blown out, you really need to re-evaluate him.

[Tao]

What card would have prevented him from getting blown out there?

[Waikiki]

He just made some wrong choices as in does he really got the time to get this squee?

I think fauna shaman is pretty great in that kind of deck and I believe the deck is pretty strong.

[majikal]

What card would have prevented him from getting blown out there?
Tarmogoyf would probably have been a decent start. Oops, he was running Fauna Shaman instead.

[ivanpei]

Lol, when I looked at the list, I was wow a survival deck with fauna! Finally a use for my Pretty Japanese Foil Fauna Shaman. Then I went through the list and saw a whole load of terrible 1 offs. -_- And... NO GOYFS???!!, no STP!!! BLASPHEMY!!. Chapin's deck is very combo oriented. I think outside of the surprise/rogue factor, it is very subpar. After this tournament I wouldn't be surprised if it just disappeared. Having said that, I'm working of a fauna shaman survival list, but a non blue one with vial, survival, fauna etc but with goyfs, STP. It plays like a traditional vial rock aggro deck with fauna/survival for gas. Fauna -> squee -> dude is terrible. A good player will see fauna, wait for you to fetch squee, then plow your fauna after you past priority... -_- That's pretty devastating. However, I can see fauna being very good as a 2/2 bear who occasionally wins the game by going -> fauna into magus of the moon, fauna-> handy shriekmaw, -> pitch terrible mana bear for bob. fauna into -> pridemage against moat. I think a more streamlined version could work and non of that emrakul crap. I find emrakul + fauna waaay too slow. It takes, 3 untaps! 1 fetch emrakul, 2 fetch retainers, 3 pitch emrakul... Iona is slightly better with just 2 untaps but still slow.

[StoicAngel]

-I have a list on star city for fauna vial if you wish to post comments on it there. Mine is starting to look like fauna into painters servent. With goblin welders. But I really don't want to discuss it on this site till sword of body and mind comes out. Since it does run stoneforge mystics.

[Tao]

A good player will see fauna, wait for you to fetch squee, then plow your fauna after you past priority... -_- That's pretty devastating.

If you suspect removal, just dont run into it like that. Discard a bad creature and get a good one. Another great way to punish these players is to discard Vengevine into Fauna Shaman (of course only in Vengevine lists).

[majikal]

If you suspect removal, just dont run into it like that. Discard a bad creature and get a good one. Another great way to punish these players is to discard Vengevine into Fauna Shaman (of course only in Vengevine lists).
You know what would be even better? Not running bad creatures in the first place.

[Waikiki]

This simply isnt the deck to support fauna shaman + vengevine. And fauna shaman alone is far from powerfull since its way too slow and we can handle pretty well without a survival in play. I rather have a nice blue count.

[Esper3k]

For me, the biggest power of this deck is actually how it operates when you don't have a Survival effect on board. Winning games even when you don't have to implement your main gameplan shows how strong the deck is.

The problem I have with Fauna Shaman is finding cards to take out for it (much less Vengevine) as well as (in my experience) just how slow the Shaman is.

Another strength of Bant Survival is how powerful the deck is against Zoo. Fauna Shaman seems to really weaken that matchup.

Also, I'm not a huge fan of Vengevines - they increase your reliance upon the graveyard and Survival. The deck is designed to not rely upon Survival as much as possible (even the toolbox creatures you generally run are good without Survival).

[majikal]

Got a set of these in the mail today. :D
http://i750.photobucket.com/albums/xx143/Joel_Wright/Survival.jpg

[ivanpei]

Nice! As an alterer, I'd like to praise the unique "doing the bottom borders only" approach. Its a pretty simple alter, but the results look good! Congrats!

[majikal]

Yeah, I wanted to do something other than the standard "turn Survival guy into something else" approach, so I figured I'd have them popped out of the border at the ground line.

Next stop is Pete Venters for signatures along the bottom in silver or gold ink. :)

[StoicAngel]

Just allow four hours for the ink to dry.

[Esper3k]

Nice! I use a set of the Judge promo Survivals myself because the foiliness and the art make me happy. How much did it end up costing you to get those altered?

[majikal]

Jimirynk's girlfriend did them. She charges $25 per alter for pretty much anything you can think of.

[kirtash]

what do you think about this survival bant? it's a bit different

4 Noble hierarch
2 Qasali pridmage
2 Rhox
1 Squee
2 Stoneforge mistic
1 Trygon predator
2 Spellstutter Sprite
1 Sower of temptations
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Mother of Runes
1 Iona
1 Loyal retainers
1 Kitchen finks

4 Force of will
4 Swords to the plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Survival of the fittest
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of fire and ice

2 Tundra
3 Tropical
2 Savannah
4 Misty rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
2 Island
2 Forest
1 Plains

Sideboard

2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Spell pierce
1 Meddling mage
1 LLawan , cephalid empress 1
2 Pact to exile
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Krosan grip

[Fasbi]

+1 Tarmogoyf!

If you play Sprites take 3. You want them even without Survival.
Kitchen Finks are only good against Aggro (mostly Zoo/Sligh) but Rhox War Monk does really well against that. Take a thrid of them instead of one-of Finks.
Mother of Runes aren't really good in this deck. Survival gets you more cratures if you have problem with removal and Kira would protect them MUCH better.
Stoneforge is great! :) It shines vs. all the aggro/aggro-control decks.

All in all your deck depends more on Survival [Mother without other creatures sucks, 1-of Kitchen Finks, only 2 Sprites(, Equipments)] and this is what I dislike the most. :/

Sideboard:
Crypts/Macabres > Relic/Wheel
A third Path to Exile would be nice, too.

[Nidd]

Alright, I'm going take Bant Survival to a tournament on saturday and I'm looking for some advice on my list. The Meta will include quite a bit of Control from what I know, but after all it's a tourney with 30-40 people and I don't know everyones decks, so it's an unknown meta after all.

This is the list I wanted to bring:

// Lands
2 [5E] Forest
1 [EUL] Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [A] Savannah
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [JGC] Windswept Heath
1 [ST] Plains

// Creatures
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
3 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
1 [10E] Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [DIS] Trygon Predator
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [LRW] Ponder
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
1 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 3 [EVE] Cold-Eyed Selkie
SB: 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 2 [DDD] Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 [BOK] Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt

I thought about playing Wonder, but Jace is so good against Control, it's not even funny anymore, so he got the nod.
Emrakul is there to fight Lands.dec, eventual Enchantress, GY hate and to refill against Control.
The Selkies are a card I like very much, they are wonderful against Merfolk, most Control decks and against Bant stuff.

Any advice/criticism?

[worsel]

Jak:
Would it be possible for you to post your list, either here, or on the first page. If you do update the first page, could you put the date at the top of the list each time you update it. I know the bottom of the post shows when the post was last updated, but that doesn't tell us what information in the post was updated... one would then have to assume the edit was to the list, but it doesn't mean that for sure.

As an example, you could maybe do this:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sample Decklist
My decklist has been constantly changing since the day I made it. Many slots regularly change because of trying to adapt to the meta, new cards, or optimization. In all the tournaments I have been to and done well, I think every list has been slightly different. That is the beauty of Bant Survival. Without further ado, here is my list.

Bant Survival
By Jak. (updated Aug 5, 2010)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Meddling Mage
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Trygon Predator
1 Wonder
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

1 Flex Slot

Sideboard
3 Spell Pierce
3 Path to Exile
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Or if Jak is not available, could someone else in the know with regards to this thread please list the current common accepted decklist?

Thanks

[majikal]

Has anyone else been having problems with Burn lately? Recently my meta has become infested with the stuff and I just can't seem to punch through all the hate they throw out. Leylines, Blasts, some are even packing Combust. It's horrifying. :(

[Hopo]

There are plenty of awesome cards to answer burn strategies, if you are willing to dedicate a few SB slots:

Aegis of Honor
Warmth
Leyline of Sanctity
Kor Firewalker
Burrengton Forge-Tender
Chill

Aegis of Honor is decent, if you are staring at Leyline of Punishment too often: it doesn't prevent damage or gain you life.
Chill just slows them down so much that you have time to win first.
Leyline of Sanctity is gg, but makes mulliganing a bit complicated.

The other options are also good, but not so when the burn player has a leyline. Much like Rhox War Monk.

Also, do you find yourself having trouble getting Iona to stick? They should have no answer for that.

[Tao]

I dont see the problem vs. burn. You have Survival, which is Auto-GG, if you get Iona into play. Also you play Rhox War Monk maindeck and they can't race it. Swording your own (if possible Exalted) Goyf will also buy you another turn, and Force of Will too.
For game two it really doesnt matter if they bring in hate. They can't hate Iona AND your lifegain. If they have Combust, Leyline and Blast in hand - guess what, they die to Iona because they just won't kill you. Every SB card they draw sets them back a turn.

But if your Meta is really burn infested and you want something especially against Burn: the best card ever printed vs. Burn is clearly Chill. It is not even close, they just can't do anything about it except for blue blast. And it is not that bad against Goblins, either (though there are clearly better cards): IF you are able to handle Vial/Lackey it will usually win.

Edit: Forgot about the new Leyline. That is awesome too, and it also helps vs most Combo.

[majikal]

Also, do you find yourself having trouble getting Iona to stick? They should have no answer for that.
This is generally the problem. Usually one of three things happens - I either don't ever see Survival; or they go first and kill me turn 3; or Survival gets Pithing Needled and I lose to Leyline.

[Kuma]

Any advice/criticism?

Cut Spellstutter Sprite. That card is terrible, especially against control. Run some Meddling Mage instead --- they can ruin a control player's day. I can't imagine why you'd need two Kira, Great Glass-Spinner in the 75. One should probably be something else.


This is generally the problem. Usually one of three things happens - I either don't ever see Survival; or they go first and kill me turn 3; or Survival gets Pithing Needled and I lose to Leyline.

It sounds like you're just getting unlucky. Between Rhox War Monk, Survival, and Iona you should win most of your games with or without sideboard help.

[Esper3k]

Yeah, I never really had much of a problem against Burn.

I also ran 4x Rhox War Monk main though (I really wanted to crush the Zoo matchup).

Even if they have Leyline out, you can still pop it with Pridemage and Trygons, not to mention that your guys are still massive blockers to any creatures they may have on top of being decently fast clocks themselves.

There are plenty of sideboard cards others have mentioned if you really need to beat Burn. (Aegis of Honor is just dirty pool, sir! I like it!)

@Nidd: I'm also not a fan of Spellstutter Sprite at all. It costs you 1UG (if you have Survival out) to counter a 1 mana cost spell. The body is hardly impressive and Bant Survival doesn't really run equipment to make the evasion important. I also believe you should have at least 1 Gilded Drake or Sower (I think Drake is better) to steal all those Emrakuls, Ionas, etc. flying around these days. I'm not a huge fan of Emrakul or Wonder myself. The deck is designed to have as few cards that are dead without Survival, as possible, and I prefer to try and keep it as low as possible. With perpetual Rhoxes and Goyfs, you can beat through almost any ground war and if things get stalled out, you have the Iona option (really, I usually just go for that first).

I also like to have 3+ Krosan Grip in the board because CounterBalance can be such a difficult matchup for us.

[majikal]

It sounds like you're just getting unlucky. Between Rhox War Monk, Survival, and Iona you should win most of your games with or without sideboard help.
Probably right. I guess I need to mulligan more aggressively in this match, since I hate to fuck up my sideboard hating on a monocolored deck when there's so much other shit I need the SB slots for in my meta.

[Nidd]

Cut Spellstutter Sprite. That card is terrible, especially against control. Run some Meddling Mage instead --- they can ruin a control player's day. I can't imagine why you'd need two Kira, Great Glass-Spinner in the 75. One should probably be something else.
I'm torn between SSS and MM. It's my first time playing Bant Survival outside of testing groups and the setting is quite competitive. MM requires a larger knowledge of the interactions between the deck and the opponent's deck, but is stronger overall, while SSS seems to be the choice for an unexperienced player like me.
However, the best way to learn how to play with MM is to run it, so yeah, I guess I'll run MM if you 2 suggest it.

@Nidd: I'm also not a fan of Spellstutter Sprite at all. It costs you 1UG (if you have Survival out) to counter a 1 mana cost spell. The body is hardly impressive and Bant Survival doesn't really run equipment to make the evasion important. I also believe you should have at least 1 Gilded Drake or Sower (I think Drake is better) to steal all those Emrakuls, Ionas, etc. flying around these days. I'm not a huge fan of Emrakul or Wonder myself. The deck is designed to have as few cards that are dead without Survival, as possible, and I prefer to try and keep it as low as possible. With perpetual Rhoxes and Goyfs, you can beat through almost any ground war and if things get stalled out, you have the Iona option (really, I usually just go for that first).

I also like to have 3+ Krosan Grip in the board because CounterBalance can be such a difficult matchup for us.
People at my play group already suggested Sower but I think Drake is better, he's just plain faster. I guess he can take 1 Kira slot, right?

As I said, Emrakul is there to handle Enchantress/Lands. I know that 2 people will play Enchantress, it's a famous petdeck in Germany and pretty much every 5th player has one. Also, I think he is nice to protect your precious GY - or is this too cool to be good?
I've cut Wonder from my list for Jace. I've got the feeling that the meta will include a good bunch of Control and Jace is a bomb against decks with a slow clock.

3 K Grip have been included before, but I've cut 1 for... 1 Kira, I think. CounterTop isn't as prevalent in Germany as it is in America, from what I know. A Dreadstill deck T8s on a regular basis, though. So I might face him later on if I don't scrub around too much.

I had an idea for the Merfolk MU, maybe some of you folks who have more experience than I do can help me out on this:
My idea was to play a 1-of Scryb Ranger MB. It has Protection from Blue and protects the manabase from Wastelands. Basically, this enables me to fetch for a tropical Island in the Merfolk MU and then i have to fight to get my Scryb on the board, which will then be able to block Coralhelm Commander all day or can handle the Jitte if I can't remove it.
Plus, that small guy looks like a sick combat trick.

I'd play him instead of 1 Ponder, which would leave me with 4 Brainstorm and 1 Ponder. Is this feasible?

For the better understanding, here's my revamped list (thank you for the help so far!):

// Lands
2 [5E] Forest
1 [EUL] Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [A] Savannah
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [JGC] Windswept Heath
1 [ST] Plains

// Creatures
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
3 [ARB] Meddling Mage
1 [10E] Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [DIS] Trygon Predator
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [TSP] Scryb Ranger

// Spells
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [LRW] Ponder
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
1 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 3 [EVE] Cold-Eyed Selkie
SB: 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 2 [DDD] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [BOK] Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt

[Waikiki]

thats very close to what my list runs now

-2 predator -1 ponder +1 jace + 1 pridemage +1 sower

[Nidd]

thats very close to what my list runs now

-2 predator -1 ponder +1 jace + 1 pridemage +1 sower
Huh? No Predators? How come?
Also, why do you play Sower over Drake? Because of Counterbalance?

Apparently, you play Scryb Ranger, too. What's your opinion on him? Is he as good as I think?

[Waikiki]

I really love its utility making a suprise blocker or saving land. You could even return all your islands :x

I play sower since I just dont like giving them a 3/3 flier.

[Nidd]

I really love its utility making a suprise blocker or saving land. You could even return all your islands :x

I play sower since I just dont like giving them a 3/3 flier.
Las time I checked, Scryb only returns Forests, so it can't return a basic Island. Or did you mean that you can return all blue Duals? ;)

I can understand that you don't want to give them the 3/3 body - but isn't the speed an argument for it?

[Waikiki]

You either need a survival online for it to be good So I guess you are either lucky finding it without survival or allready have a bunch of mana.

And yes I was talking about the tropicals.

[majikal]

You either need a survival online for it to be good So I guess you are either lucky finding it without survival or allready have a bunch of mana.

I prefer Gilded Drake, because in matches where I need it I often find myself having to cast Survival and be able to steal something huge on the same turn, or I have Survival already, but am tapped out with only 3-4 total mana and have to pitch something on my turn to grab an answer.

Also they can't just bounce your Drake and get their guy back, which is surprisingly relevant these days.

[Kuma]

Also they can't just bounce your Drake and get their guy back, which is surprisingly relevant these days.

Or Bolt/Chain/Helix/Swords/Path/Incinerator/O-Ring/Devastating Dreams it.

Gilded Drake is so much better than Sower of Temptation it's not even funny. Drake even costs half what Sower does --- what more could anyone ask for?

[Nidd]

Finished 3-3. My MUs were: Supreme Blue (R1, lost 0:2), Cephalid Breakfast (R2, lost 1:2), Survival Rock (R3, won 2:0), SI/ANT/Tendrils/Something (R4, won 2:1), Naya Sligh (R5, won 2:1) and Enchantress (R6, lost 1:2).
And seriously, I only lost to Enchantress G3 because I had to mull to 3(!). These 3 cards were Tropical, Heath and Force. Needless to say, I was boned.

The deck performed very good, regarding that I played it for the first time in a larger tournament (42 players, finished 22nd, got myself a Judge Foil Cunning Wish). Meddling Mages are BOMBS. As in, the stone cold nuts.
Scryb Ranger was nice-to-have, didn't play against Islandwalkers in any round, but at least I always knew what I could pitch to Survival.

[Esper3k]

Gilded Drake is considerably better than Sower not only for the reasons listed above, but for the single blue mana in its casting cost as well. You'd be surprised how difficult it can be sometimes to get UU.

Biggest selling point is the speed and the inability for your opponent to just kill your Drake and get their guy back. Generally speaking, you're going to be stealing something much better than the Drake.

I have found the Enchantress matchup to be generally favorable for us. If you're running a decent anti-enchantment package in the main on top of Grips, it's even better, but in general, you're playing combo against a deck that has an unfavorable combo matchup. Get Survival down and you shouldn't have much of a problem winning.

[Nidd]

Gilded Drake is considerably better than Sower not only for the reasons listed above, but for the single blue mana in its casting cost as well. You'd be surprised how difficult it can be sometimes to get UU.

Biggest selling point is the speed and the inability for your opponent to just kill your Drake and get their guy back. Generally speaking, you're going to be stealing something much better than the Drake.

I have found the Enchantress matchup to be generally favorable for us. If you're running a decent anti-enchantment package in the main on top of Grips, it's even better, but in general, you're playing combo against a deck that has an unfavorable combo matchup. Get Survival down and you shouldn't have much of a problem winning.
I know the MU is favorable for us. But that's what I get for not seeing a Trygon, Grip, Harmonic Sliver, Pridemage or MM early enough. Neither did I see a Survival early enough.

G1 was easily decided by Jace coupled with 3 Hierarchs who wittled him down.
G2 I got T3 Jace, but he got his engine going as I didn't draw a single counter early enough to counter his Enchantress effects and 1 turn before I could Jace him, he established Confinement with 3 effects. I drew Survival and dug for MM to stop his winconditions and grind out a win somehow - however, he drew Sacred Mesa next turn and I looked at my useless MM. I simply forgot about Mesa.
G3 was... well, abyssmal should be the right word. 3 cards rarely win against 7.

[majikal]

Seeing as this deck has lost a bit of popularity due to the easier-to-play UG Madness...is anyone still playing our beloved Bant Survival? I'm curious to hear how the slew of new decks that have come about since GP Columbus have affected this archetype.

I'm still doing very well with the deck and expect to keep playing with it until I stop winning, so I'm just curious how everyone else is doing. What kind of new sideboard strategies have you adopted, and how have your matchups changed overall, or is it business as usual?

[Waikiki]

Nothing really changed for me. Just that I had to learn the new decks to screw them with MM.


I switched to GW survival in GP Amsterdam since I feared merfolk being all over the place. Which was true yet I didnt face a single copy of the deck.

[Kuma]

Seeing as this deck has lost a bit of popularity due to the easier-to-play UG Madness...is anyone still playing our beloved Bant Survival? I'm curious to hear how the slew of new decks that have come about since GP Columbus have affected this archetype.

I'm still doing very well with the deck and expect to keep playing with it until I stop winning, so I'm just curious how everyone else is doing. What kind of new sideboard strategies have you adopted, and how have your matchups changed overall, or is it business as usual?

I haven't played much Magic since starting grad school. I still play Bant Survival when I can, and it's as powerful as ever.

I was going to cut the third Faerie Macabre from my sideboard, but UG Madness convinced me to keep it. I haven't played against any other new archetypes.

[Hopo]

I played this yesterday in a 46 person tournament finishing 7th. I really liked the list but would still probably try something else in the Wonder slot in the future.

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Rhox War Monk
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Wonder
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Sower of Temptation

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
3 Forest
1 Plains
2 Island

SB:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Path to Exile
2 Pithing Needle
2 Dueling Grounds
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress

I've been testing the deck forever but didn't like the Dazes at all and replaced them with Spell Pierce, which is surprisingly seldom useless. I wanted to minimize the number of 1-ofs but settled with Sower since I wanted a piece of removal to tutor with survival. Rafiq has been my most tutored creature and won many games by itself. I think this deck runs into speed issues some times what it comes to winning, and Rafiq handles this really nice. Usually a single creature can hit for lethal as soon as Rafiq comes into play, and War Monk with an active Rafiq puts you too much ahead for any deck relying on damage to race.
The sideboard was tuned mostly for merfolk and zoo. Leyline was a bit experimental and I only sided it in versus Jace.dec.

ROUND 1: Bloodghast Dredge with LEDs
Game 1: I'm on the play and start with a Hierarch. He starts by 1st turn kill.
I sideboard in Faeries, Dueling Grounds and some Path to Exiles for assortment of counters and creatures.
Game 2: I get a good start with a counter for discard outlet, a Faerie Macabre and Dueling Grounds. He can't recover and I eventually beat for the win.
Game 2: I start with a Faerie Macabre and Path for his first turn Putrid Imp, then draw Survival and Dueling Grounds and win.
2-1

ROUND 2: Aeon Bridge
Game 1: I'm on the draw. My opponent cantrips a lot and plays Mosswort Bridges. I counter a Show and Tell, then find myself facing a Stifled Dreadnought. I have 2 turns to find a removal and the top card of my deck is Sower of Temptation which ends up stealing the nought for the win.
I sideboard in some Path to Exiles because I'm not familiar with the deck and think of nailing the noughts.
Game 2: Opponent tries to Show and Tell twice, I have forces for both times and beat up with Tarmogoyfs. I didn't see a single Emrakul in these games and my opponent didn't see any fow's or Thoughtseizes.
2-0

ROUND 3: It's the Fearish control deck.
Game 1: I'm on the draw. We counter stuff but not my survival which gets Iona who wins.
I side in grave hate for war monks.
Game 2: My turn four Rafiq beats all the way. I buy enough time with Spell Pierces so he can't get Vedalken Shackles online early enough.
2-0

ROUND 4: Tempo Thresh
Game 1: I'm on the draw. I know what I'm against and enjoy by having an opening hand of lots of basics and a Rhox War Monk. There's not much he can do since Stifle, Wasteland, burn and Spell Snare are all dead against my hand.
I sideboard in all Paths to Exile for Swords, since TT usually has no basics and I want to race him by not giving him life for goyfs. Also Pithing Needles (for Wasteland) for the Iona/retainers.
Game 2: I open with a needle, double Monks and enough lands to play them. Not much he can do, again.
2-0

ROUND 5 ID with UG Madness
ROUND 6 ID with Merfolk
So 8-1 in games after swiss rounds placing second. Promising

TOP8: Countertop Goyf with Jace and Firespout.
Game 1: I'm on the draw, again. I open with some creatures which get wiped out by a Firespout. I die to counters and goyfs.
I side in needles and leylines for monks, since Jace sucks ass and I think he might be playing Intuitions, which wasn't the case.
Game 2: I lose my creatures but a survival sticks and gets Iona, which forces a scoop after one attack.
Game 3: I have a needle for Top but use my force for something less relevant than Jace, which gets me with some help from Tarmogoyfs.
1-2

So, instead of duals I get some packs of M11. Nevertheless, the deck was awesome and no matchup feels unwinnable. Wonder was the only maindecked card I didn't use at all. Jace got into play once but I feel it's good to have, especially when every control deck is playing Jace nowadays.

In the top8 match I really felt I had nothing in my sideboard against dedicated control. Any suggestions?

[akiratheoni]

4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarach
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Meddling Mage
3 Rhox War Monk
1 Wonder
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Snare
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
3 Savannah
1 Tundra
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island

SB:
2 Meddling Mage
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Krosan Grip
1 Gilded Drake
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Trygon Predator
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Propaganda
1 Llanawan, Cephalid Empress
2 Path to Exile

Round 1: Adam Prosak w/ UW Countertop
Countertop is a terrible matchup :( He's a great guy and a good player too so I didn't expect this matchup to go so well. To put it short, it went just the way I expected so I'm not even going to bother writing about how these went.

0-2, 0-2

Round 2: Alex Kiracofe w/ UW Tempo
I've tested this matchup against Alex several times and it's not too good, I can't deal with a Mother of Runes; that's what usually kills me. And it did.

Game 1: He starts off with a Mother of Runes which I swords. I don't remember much of this match but he got down two Serra Avengers that fly over me and kills me. I did manage to get him down to a low life total but not much else. I remember going for Iona but by then he already had the Avengers and another Mom in play so Iona didn't do much.

Game 2: He starts off with a Needle on Survival. I play Mage on Aether Vial. Next turn he tries casting Aether Vial. Then I try activating Survival >.< Well that didn't turn out too well for both of us. He was light on land so a Propaganda slowed his development down significantly; I manage to grip the Needle so I can get Survival going. I get Wonder in the graveyard so I can block his Serra Avengers but we were short on time, so I ended up scooping to him because the best I could do was draw, and that wouldn't benefit either of us.

0-3, 0-4

Round 3: Angelo w/ Solidarity
Game 1: Mull to 5 with two nonblue land sources and only blue cards in hand (I think it was a Jace and a Spell Snare). I decided to keep because going down to 4 is too risky, because he kept 7 cards. I draw into literally nothing for most of the game but eventually get the Jace onto the table and somehow win the game? I don't know how that happened.

Game 2: I get a Canonist on board and a Meddling Mage but he bounces my Canonist and goes off. Of course, I drew my Emrakul, Iona, and Squee without seeing a Survival. Wow.

Game 3: I was able to get a Canonist on board early, but he has double Propaganda draw to stop me from doing anything. I get Jace on the table and a Survival to get out all three Meddling Mages. After I ultimate him, for shits and giggles I get out Emrakul + Rafiq.

1-2, 2-5

Round 4: Matt w/ WURG Countertop
Game 1: I don't remember much of this game but I remember it involves a ton of Goyfs and Swords to Plowshares (also, he gets the Countertop lock). He managed to get rid of my Goyfs and his swing in for the kill.

Game 2: He gets a turn 2 Counterbalance but I get a turn 3 Trygon Predator (he misses on the blind flip). Then I eat his Counterbalance turn 4 and cast Jace. He casts a Goyf and I begin to brainstorm, casting my own Goyf. Then I draw into a Gilded Drake and steal his Goyf. At this point, Goyf is a 7/8 so I cast a Rhox War Monk to put him from 18 to 1 in a single swing. I take the game from here.

Game 3: He starts off with two Needles on Jace but I never saw Jace that game. I cast a Meddling Mage on Tarmogoyf and I draw into a Rhox War Monk (apparently he drew a Goyf the turn after I cast the Mage, so that was a lucky call). He swords my War Monk but I manage to land a Survival and time is called; I discard my Loyal Retainers to fetch out Rafiq and that ends the game.

2-2, 4-6

So I didn't do as well as I expected. I was expecting more of an aggro-oriented metagame, hence the maindeck Wonder and lack of answers to Counterbalance. Obviously Countertop is a bad matchup but I CANNOT beat a resolved Mother of Runes. Also, I am terrible at sideboarding... is there like some sort of guide for sideboarding? Lol.

I still really like this deck and the times that Jace landed and managed to Brainstorm more than ones, I ended up doing pretty well. Jace + Gilded Drake is pretty awesome too but I didn't manage to pull that off. I hardly managed to get Iona out though, not sure why I didn't go for it as often as I should though.

Also, after the tournament I opened my binder up and saw two Cold Eye Selkies. I then procdeed to bash my head on the table repeatedly since I was intending to put them into my sideboard if I saw a lot of blue decks being played. And all of the decks I faced had Islands in them.

[Mana Drain]

Hey everyone! I'm a Bant CB and Landstill player, and I've been looking for a new blue deck (all I play) to play with. I already have most of the cards needed to build Bant Survival and I've like my results after preliminary testing. Here is my current (un-optimized) MWS list, which I took from different people on the thread.

// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [A] Savannah
1 [10E] Forest
1 [IA] Plains
1 [M10] Island

// Creatures
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
1 [US] Gilded Drake
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 [DIS] Trygon Predator
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [JGC] Survival of the Fittest
4 [BD] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [GTW] Path to Exile
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [DDD] Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [BOK] Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
SB: 1 [TO] Llawan, Cephalid Empress

I'm not very experienced with the deck, so I can't claim my card choices are optimal. But I do have some questions:

-Why no Gaddock "Mr. T" Teeg? He's great against control-ish decks and decks with bombs. NO, Humility, Jace, Elspeth, Explosives, Dread Return, Opposing Force of Wills, and of course, Tendrils/ETW are all cards I don't want to see on the other table. Against decks where he is irrelevant, he's still a bear? Can always be pitched to survival. I think he's too good not to run one.
-Not much Vendilion Clique love? I have the Fae in for Wonder, and so far, I haven't been disapointed. First, Clique doesn't need survival to go online. Second, Flash. Third, disruption before I go for a survival or a Retainer/Iona game-ender, or simply seeing what's going on in your opponents hand and stopping the biggest threat. Fourth, flying, 3 in the power slot, and 3 in the CC. I admit sometimes UU is hard to come up with, but in that case, 3U isn't going much of anywhere either. Wonder is cool against fish/zoo/goblins, but it's just another card that needs survival, another card to be hated by crypt/relic/whatever, and isn't a viable threat on it's own. Personal preference maybe...
-I don't know how standard spell pierce is in BS, but I've loved it so far, against everything but gobs/folk. It forces decks to play differently once they've seen it and ups the U count for force (and I've seen a lot of decks with 16 U cards that I can't believe consistently have force available to them). It punishes bad mana draws by opponents and is excellent at stopping typical sweepers played early like firespout, perish, humility. More combo hate, more CB hate, effective against zoo, great against random junk decks.
-Leyline of Sanctity. This is purely a test, and I don't know how effective it will be. I REALLY don't like losing to combo. Completely open to suggestions for this slot.

My meta consists of Combo (TES, ANT, Dredge), Control (UW AND UGB landstill), CB decks, bunch of Zoo/sligh, Folk, and occasionally goblins. Mostly Tier 1 decks with occasional Reanimator and Tempo-based decks like U/W and Threshold.
Any suggestions to a new Bant Survivor player are welcome!

[Black Mass]

@ Hopo:

Against dedicated (U-based) control you could try Cold Eyed Selkie, she/he makes you draw like crazy and obviously has an enormous synergy with the exalted theme Bant has. I tried it for the first time today and was very impressed about the sheer power of a resolved one.

@ Mana Drain.
- Gaddock Teeg also shuts you off of your Forces and, since it is becoming a staple in this deck, the possibility to play your Jaces. This deck hates dead cards sitting in your hand, not being able to pitch or use both of thme while in your hand makes this card unacceptable (to me off course)

- Wonder has been up for discussion for a long time, I think most have cut it for something else about now.

[majikal]

@ Hopo:

Against dedicated (U-based) control you could try Cold Eyed Selkie, she/he makes you draw like crazy and obviously has an enormous synergy with the exalted theme Bant has. I tried it for the first time today and was very impressed about the sheer power of a resolved one.
This x1000! Selkie almost single-handedly wins this matchup for you. I usually side out 4x Goyf for a combination of 3x Selkie and Emrakul, since Goyf has never seemed stellar to me in this particular matchup (just another two-drop that eats it to Counterbalance and EE). A lot of the time even a single hit is enough to put you too far ahead for them to catch up, and if you get in there more than once, it's very unlikely that you will lose.



@ akiratheoni - Your list is only 58 cards!

[akiratheoni]

@ akiratheoni - Your list is only 58 cards!

Oh, you're right. I typed up the list from memory so I definitely missed a few.

The list should have +1 Qasali Pridemage and +1 Eternal Witness, I added it back to my list, thanks.

[dan who?]

My friend/teammate came up with this list that I piloted to 33rd (missed top32 on tie breakers) at the SCG 5k in Minnesota.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=34782

I went 5-3 losing to UG Madness twice and losing to Bant in 3 games. Against Bant in the 3rd game we traded creature removal and counterspells to the point that there was a clear board. He eventually landed a Vendilion Clique where I pulled blanks the rest of the time so I lost. I feel with a slight tweak to the sideboard (taking a path out for another crypt) the madness match-up would be fine but I saw a lot of merfolk,goblins, and zoo so I skimped on the grave hate.

I beat UBg Landstill twice, Goblins, Zoo, and Reanimator.

I can type a tournament report if you want.

[Blitzbold]

This is my latest build. It plays quite smooth without any further digging than the brainstorms. Playtested aextensively against Ugr Fearies yesterday and came out on top by a lage margin both pre and post sideboard.

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Trygon Predator
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Wonder
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest


SB 3 Spell Pierce
SB 2 Path to Exile
SB 2 Krosan Grip
SB 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB 1 Gilded Drake
SB 1 Kira, Greater Glas-Spinner
SB 1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB 1 Meddling Mage
SB 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB 2 Fearie Macabre

The board of course is adjusted to our metagame, but I think one can take it to an unknown meta as well because of being well rounded out. Unfortunately I can't attend our local tournament today, but a friend of mine will play the list card by card and will report to me.

[Rune]

Is there any reason Vengevine isn't in this deck instead of Retainers/Iona? Thist might just be my opinion, but Vengevine only takes up a few more slots than the Retainer combo and it seems strictly better than Iona these days since it races Merfolk better, isn't useless without Survival in play, etc.

[Windux]

You need four-five slots for it, to be good:
3-4 Vengevines, 1 Basking Rootwalla
and still then, you just have 4 Noble Hierarch to search for in the 1cc slot.

So you have 2 slots to cut: Iona/Retainer


Also, Bant Survival is much more contrlish than GW Survival. It's better for us, just to play Iona and then dig for answers like Force, Firespouts, 7 Swords-effects etc.
To drop a Vengevine or Rootwalla without Survival isn't that impressiv in a deck, which plays Meddling Mage, Sprites etc.

[Kuma]

Is there any reason Vengevine isn't in this deck instead of Retainers/Iona? Thist might just be my opinion, but Vengevine only takes up a few more slots than the Retainer combo and it seems strictly better than Iona these days since it races Merfolk better, isn't useless without Survival in play, etc.

3-4 Vengevine + Basking Rootwalla = 4-5 slots, GGGG(G)G mana, loses to Stifle on madness trigger and graveyard hate.

Iona, Shield of Emeria + Loyal Retainers = 2 slots, 2GGW mana, loses to Stifle on Loyal Retainers's ability, graveyard hate, and a topdecked Force of Will on Loyal Retainers.

Vengevine combo costs one more mana, lots more colored mana, and 2-3 more slots in order to slightly improve the combo option against Merfolk. It's also likely a turn slower. I board out Iona against Merfolk, and I don't have too much trouble beating them by killing their lords and playing Rhox War Monks and Tarmogoyfs. I'd probably still board out Vengevine combo, because a 4/3 for 2GG and (not even) a 3/3 for 1GG are only useful without Survival in the strictest sense, and if they stop your combo, you lose. You don't beat Merfolk by paying four mana for 4/3's.

Three slots is a big deal. You're almost certainly going to be hurting other matchups for a slight boost against Merfolk.

[akiratheoni]

Hey guys, I was unable to get Duelling Grounds for my deck but the website had Peacekeeper in stock so I decided to buy one (it was only like $0.60 so it was practically free).

Peacekeeper 2W
At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice Peacekeeper unless you pay 1W.
Creatures can't attack.
1/1

I've had only limited testing with it, but for Merfolk and UW Tempo, it absolutely wrecks them. Against a UW Tempo-ish deck on Sunday I had Meddling Mage on Swords to Plowshares and a Peacekeeper out, and it was a hard lock against them. From there I use Jace as my win condition. Against Merfolk it stalled the board until they finally drew a Submerge, but that was my mistake because for some reason I decided to name something else with Meddling Mage (not sure what).

Obviously against Goblins or Zoo it doesn't really help because they can just kill it but for decks that only run 4 Swords as removal, Peacekeeper + Meddling Mage is typically GG.

[Hopo]

Peacekeeper is nice and tutorable, but since it's a creature, it's also unreliable. It can be taken care of with so many more ways that I say Dueling Grounds is strictly better and as you noted, works also against zoo and goblins. Also, I don't see the logic behind naming StoP - your best anti-aggro card - with Meddling Mage against aggro when you play a full set of it.

You probably got this idea from the Dreadstill-thread. They have countertop and loads of other countermagic so they have the the means to have it stick on table.

[akiratheoni]

Peacekeeper is nice and tutorable, but since it's a creature, it's also unreliable. It can be taken care of with so many more ways that I say Dueling Grounds is strictly better and as you noted, works also against zoo and goblins. Also, I don't see the logic behind naming StoP - your best anti-aggro card - with Meddling Mage against aggro when you play a full set of it.

You probably got this idea from the Dreadstill-thread. They have countertop and loads of other countermagic so they have the the means to have it stick on table.

I don't remember where exactly I got the idea, although yeah it might've been from Dreadstill.

As for naming StP on Meddling Mage, that's also because I run Path to Exile in the sideboard and I replace some StP with it. Also the MM doesn't always hit the board so keeping in a couple StP isn't always a bad thing. If I can land the MM with a decent amount of creatures on the board then it helps a lot.

Also, like I said I wasn't able to get any Dueling Grounds (if anyone can recommend a place that has them, that would be great!) so I settled for Peacekepper. Propaganda is good as well but since I run Jace in my deck it basically renders Jace useless since they don't need to pay the mana to attack him.

[majikal]

I seem to recall some ATS lists using Peacekeeper at one point, so it's not like the idea is unheard of.

[Hopo]

I'd like to discuss the aggro matchups. I have found a really solid md/sb configuration of relevant cards against the aggressive creature decks of the format:
Maindeck:
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf

Sideboard:
4 Path to Exile
2 Dueling Grounds

That is 17 cards which make winning aggro decks pretty easy.

What I'm unaware of is the UG-madness matchup and how this selection of cards can cope with that. You, who have played the matchup in tournaments and testing: how is it? Are they too fast? I see their lines of play being similar to ours except they make some really good use of their discard outlets. An active survival gives you about a turn or two to find a way to deal with Vengevines before they rush you.

[majikal]

I'd like to discuss the aggro matchups. I have found a really solid md/sb configuration of relevant cards against the aggressive creature decks of the format:
Maindeck:
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf

Sideboard:
4 Path to Exile
2 Dueling Grounds

That is 17 cards which make winning aggro decks pretty easy.

What I'm unaware of is the UG-madness matchup and how this selection of cards can cope with that. You, who have played the matchup in tournaments and testing: how is it? Are they too fast? I see their lines of play being similar to ours except they make some really good use of their discard outlets. An active survival gives you about a turn or two to find a way to deal with Vengevines before they rush you.
Keep them off Survival and you'll probably win. It really comes down to who can get their enchantment down the fastest and have the mana to combo off first. Iona on Green really fucks them, and I guess Dueling Grounds isn't so bad either, but I think the important thing is just making sure they can't search up their Vengevines.

[Maëlig]

Iona on Green really fucks them
Not sure if going for a quick iona is really the smart move in this MU. It's a real tempo sink, and you expose yourself to a painful FoW / stifle on retainers or submerge on iona.

[majikal]

Not sure if going for a quick iona is really the smart move in this MU. It's a real tempo sink, and you expose yourself to a painful FoW / stifle on retainers or submerge on iona.
It's not so much getting a quick Iona onto the board as it is keeping them off of Survival long enough to give you the opportunity to get an Iona before they can do anything dumb with Vengevines. Submerge isn't even an issue until G2, where you'll have some number of Faerie Macabre to curtail the shenanigans with or without Iona.

[CaBaaL]

i am watching this threat some time now but never posted anything. last week i joined a big event(32partitipants) and here are my results

1st my list
19 lands (nothing special)
8 fechlands
2 savvanahs
4 tropical (with all these merfolk decks i am thinking removing one)
1 island
1 plains
3 forest

1 Etternal Witness
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
1 Kira, Greater Glas-Spinner
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Quirion ranger (vs wasteland)
1 Wonder
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Venser (tutorable removal and out of counterbalance)

4 Force of Will
4 spell pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest
2 ponder

SB 3 Path to Exile
SB 2 Krosan Grip
SB 1 Gilded Drake
SB 1 Teeg
SB 1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB 1 Kataki (i saw when i arrive 2 players playing ravager affinity so i added one)
SB 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB 2 Fearie Macabre
SB 1 silent arbiter
SB 1 Rhox war monk
SB 1 genesis (he is instead of emrakul totaly useless)

i did not have my loyal retainer+iona package (it arrived this friday 5 days after the tournament, so i replaced them with a meddling mage and a spell pierce)

ROUND1 vs merfolkMU
won the die roll and i mull fakeing no land hand for a hand with fow i know what he is playing and he does not. keep my 6 with fow, noble, 1 forest, 1 fetst, 1 tarmogoyf and brainstorm
he starts with vial and i force it he looks sad and he misses 2nd land drop. i fake colored srew to force him using his wasteland on my tropical(i have not used my fetch yet i do not like to have islands agains a surprise LOA.)
7/8 exalted goyf forces him to double block with and before damage he drops one more with his vial. i was wait for than to send the new one farming and goyf send the other 2 to graveyard. a do not cast survival because i win with tarmogoyf and a pridemage.

he does not know that i play survival yet so i want to surprise him
+3 path, and empress
I keep a hand with kira 2 noble 1 forest 1 path, 1 sword and a fetch my 1st card is survival
this game is a rape he packs a lot of grave hate and he draws 2 crypts. i give him targets to fow and kira resolves he sais that he has 2 in his deck. turn 6 empress seals him out of game crypts did not helped him vs goyf (he removed my sqee but gave goyf +1/+1 for artifact)
1/0/0

against tes...
he is my brother, it is early but i wrogly choose to scoop for him (huge misstake)
1/1/0

against merfolk

i know this guy and know what he is playing.
1st game i get flooded with lands and nobles (1st time i draw that many lands) but then i resolve a survival and seal the game (ranger helped me alot because he played 3 wastelands)
2nd game start with 1st turn noble, 2nd turn noble pierce his vial that he force i have fow but keep it for: 3rd turn rafiq! he tryied to force but i have force too. after that his hand was raped by the double fow and he loses to a triple exalted double striking rhox
2/1/0

against goblins Rw
FFS he is my closest friend on the previus game he scooped to my bro so we have to play this. we whine because out of all this ppl we have to play against.
i mul 3 times for noland hands... i keep a stupid 4 cards with a noble and a savanah. noble gets sworded and my single land gets wasted.. i scoop fast and go for game 2
+3 paths,+1 rhox
i keep my 7 and start quite well. i have it under control and drop him to 3lifes then we stall me having 2 3/4 goyfs, 4 nobles 2 pridemages and ranger and he builds a huge army and overruns me.. sucks hards did not draw any swords, paths or survivals..
2/2/0

against merfolk Uw too
4 ppl with merfolks and i paired with 3 great.
i start really hard with noble followed with rhox and goyf, in this game i draw 3 swords 4 brainstorms and 4 fows he looks sad but he does not know i play survival.
2nds game i start with fowing his vial them noble and nextturn survival for empress. the next one meddling mage joins in to end the game
3/2/0

against tes
danm where is iona when you need her?? i mul to 5 and keep 1 noble,1 tropical,a pierce and 2 fow he starts with duress and takes 1 fow he wants an other duress/silence before starting the spell count i drop a rhox 2nd turn and he duresses me again taking my 2nd fow. exalted rhox starts getting his life low, then a topdeck meddling mage for ad nauseum forces him to cast doomsday i spell pierce it and he is 2 mana short to win me, he plays exatly the same list with my brother and i know the deck better than he knows it.
+1 canonist
2nd game i mull to 5 and keep a hand with rhox 2 fow 1 pierce and a fetch my top card is canonist
he starts with duress and looks sad again with my double fow. i drop a fetch to a tropical and pass, he plays a silence and i pierce it looks like he was faking it to draw a counter but i did not want to take chances. canonist next turn was enough to slow him down to win this.

4/2/0
against ravager
i get overruned from 2 ornithopters with plating but hard casting wonder and a sword turn the game.2 huge flying goyfs seals the game.
highlight was double attacking frogmites with plating meet venser bouncing one and blocking the other one he surely did not expected that.
i mull to 6 cause my hand was to slow and i top deck kataki game ends on turn 3 the fastest game i had.
5/2/0

i end up 9th with scoop to my brother and losing to a friend. this week is the next tournament the 15 tops go for the final i have loyal+iona and hardly can wait for this.

meddling mage MD is great i may remove etternal witness to keep him MD, i may remove 1 tropical due to all the merfolk players out here. rest is ok i think

PROS:
the models from the next-door car show
the 2/0s i did. i either won 2/0 or lose 0/2
the feeling to have the most expensive deck in the room is prieceless

CONS:
the delay of loyal retainer
the 4 hours sleep i had
scooping to my brother. i should have played this i would have paired with the dreadbalance deck that make it to 1st and i should have won this..
pairing up with ppl i know and play every day in a tournament with so many ppl

[Hopo]

Another 27-man tournament today. I went to top 8 and lost the first round of it.

Round 1: UW-merfolk, 2-1
I lose the first game but have no problems after sideboarding. I sided in Path to Exiles and Dueling Grounds, which make it really hard for him to keep up with my creatures.

Round 2: 1-land Belcher, 0-2
First game he has belcher and mana to activate it t1. In second game I Force a first turn Xantid Swarm, but he had a great hand and made enough goblins the same turn to get me. I guess I mulliganed wrong the second game, since my 6 cards had no sideboard hate but otherwise solid hand with Fow. Should have gone for Needle/Grounds/Leyline more aggressively.

Round 3: Zoo with Stoneforge Mystics ,2-1
I win the first game with War Monks and goyfs, then lose the second one in a somewhat straight fashion. In the third game my opponent mulligans to 4 cards and that eventually wins me the game along with my sideboard cards, which are mainly chosen with zoo, merfolk and goblins in mind.

Round 4: Pro Bant, 2-1
In the first game I get rushed by equipped War Monks. I side in my creature hate and win the second game with one life left after my War Monks raced his Progenitus. The third game was fast as I got an early Rafiq to beat him up after removing three consecutive creatures.

Round 5: I'm 4th in standings with the best tiebreakers among 9-pointers, so ID with the current leader.

Top 8: Aluren, 1-2
In the first game my opponent combos at 3 life. I own the second game with Leyline of Sanctity, which prevents Cabal Therapies, Intuitions and Parasitic Strix from happening to me. The third game takes unbelievably long. After the board gets cleared by Pernicious Deed, he rebuilds faster and eventually beats me with various shitty Aluren-creatures. Awesome game.

The list:

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Cold-Eyed Selkie
4 Windswepth Heath
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
4 Forest
2 Island
1 Plains

SB:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Path to Exile
2 Pithing Needle
2 Dueling Grounds
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Cold-Eyed Selkie

It was a blast. If you're looking for a really solid list for aggro meta, here's one. I don't feel too comfortable with the combo matchup, though, and nearly 1/5 of the field was combo of some sort. I'd like to address that somehow. The maindecked selkie could as well be anything else. Maybe even a Meddling Mage.

[Waikiki]

I'd still play 3 meddling mages maindeck . They are awesome.

[CaBaaL]

my list is same as above exept with loyal retainers in place of MM and iona in place of quinion ranger AS for SB emrakul in place of genesis and silent arbiter got removed for venser


1st game
vs reanimator B/w
3rd turn iona

4th turn iona

1/0

2nd game
vs mono black control
i drop a forest and a noble, he starts with dark ritual hymn and cursed rack hymn takes iona and wonder from my hand (i had 2 survivals too:P) next topdecking loyal like a champ 2 neviritals disks meet my fows and games ends fast

this time he starts with 2 dark rituals 2 hymns and a rack ffs he rapes my hand. i drop a noble who gets edicted.. next turn goyf is 4/5 some turns later i have goyf, pride mage 1 forest and a noble he hasn't found any creatures and goyf gets to 5/6 with rack dead he draws 2 edics but i fow one and a sing goyf wins the much

2/0

3rd game
vs ravager
danm he starts by dropping half his hand and thoucast, next turn platting meets fow, 2*rhox and rafic take me to 70+life after a lot of turns blocking them. after a while i draw survival and with wonder in grave i send him to game 2

i mull to 6 because 1st hand was slow. he starts exlosively but my paths and swords stabilize me to 9 with 1 pridemage, 1 goyf, 1 noble and a survival i sac pridemage to destroy his ravager and in response to the modular i path the frogmite so he is left with a single frogmite. next turn kataki rapes his manabase and rafiq ends it fast.

3/0

4th game
vs white weenee with excalibur
he packs a lot of LD so i keep some lands to hand and try to avoid nonbasics. 1st game i draw 13 from 19lands but i manage to get him to 1life before i lose without survival.

2nd game i keep a godly 7 hand and get iona on turn 3 he get hited for lethal 18 on turn 4 and we go to game 3

3rd game i open with 2 noble 2 lands and the rest paths and swords. i start exiling his creatures and get him to 29 life when i draw survival i resolve it and i get hit by armageddon leaving me with 1 noble hierarch 1 goyf and him with 1 plain, a vial, 1 stoneforge mystic and one random creature. i was kepting 1 tropical and 1 savannah for this (i haven't draw any countermagic) so its ok. with 2 mana i start getting the rest nobles he has 2 swords but do not help him i manage to get iona 1 min before time ends. Iona hits him for 9 dropping him to 15 he draws an angel avenger and he equips her with the deathtouch+lifelink colar he wanted to draw the game but a sword gets him to 20 and iona with 3exalted+rafiq gets me to final game.

4/0

5th game
vs epic painter
if we ID i get 1st cause i have 3 2/0 and 1 2/1 and he underplayed the previous mach and won with 2/1 making him to 3 2/1 and 1 2/0. We talk and exlain to him than i have emrakull so he can not win me. and we agree to take all prices (1st place+2nd's) we end it 1/2 and i end up 2ndd with all the boosters :P, we play for fun 1st game i get srew with 2 lands but i resolve iona under trinisphere i can not find a 1rd land and i can not resolve pridemage and kill his metalworker before he combos off. 2nd game he scoops turn 2 with a resolved kataki. 3rd game i draw 8th card emrakull i brainstorm and fest to suffle him in deck. some turns later after alot counters i draw emrakull again... i know i should keep him in hand with brainstorm and suffle him inside the deck when he combos but i wanted a win cause it was not a serious game and lost it, for the story brainstorm was the 1st card i removed with gridstone so i lost for 1 mana 1st game and 1 card on the other. anyhow atleast i got all the prices :D

[Hopo]

I haven't encountered a bad matchup so far for this deck. If such exists, I'm eager to read more. To me this seems to be the the most consistent and powerful survival deck out there. Blue Vengevine builds are just a bit too inconsistent to not make it in my book, and GW-versions are giving up the combo matchups due to lack of counterspells.

For those who have tried the Natural Order sideboard plan: how strong is that, and against what would you want to side it in?

[Esper3k]

The hardest matchup I've faced with this deck so far is the Landstill matchup. I just got absolutely rolled by it at Legacy champs this year.

Combo can be tough since we don't pack as much disruption as a lot of other blue decks do, but isn't nearly as bad as if we were playing a non-blue deck, obviously.

[CaBaaL]

combo and landstil are quite easy after SB.
Heavy agro decks (goblins,zoo) are hard with out SB, I most of the time lose 1st and win the other 2, It is rare to lose 2 games Vs an agro deck.
So on the second it is even easier to win couse you will have ansers and threats that they can not keep up with. Also keep in mind that most ppl think that band survival need graveyard, thats a great misstake cause it does not matter to remove sqee, wonder even iona when you have nothing against a huge goyf or a rhox+rafiq.

[Hopo]

After being quite happy with the raw power of Jace, The Mind Sculptor, I might want to try more copies. One is pretty random, anyway.
Jace smooths the otherwise clumsy countertop matchup, where Firespouts and other removal clear your board, by being a removal for their win con while being a win con of your own. Jace get's incredibly good if you have a creature on board. You can start fatesealing while giving pressure, and use Jace to clear away blockers or dig for removal or counters. It is basically the best card to topdeck when things go that way and gives a whole new angle of attack besides beaters and Iona-lock.

Jace is not so hot against the most aggressive decks, but those are favorable matchups already and one more jace can't cripple that in any way.

Regarding other things, I want to assess whether Spell Snare is actually a good option to Spell Pierce. These widely played targets make me want to suggest it for a large tournament with diverse meta:
Qasali Pridemage
Survival of the Fittest
Tarmogoyf
Dark Confidant
Umezawa's Jitte
Counterbalance
Counterspell
Gatekeeper of Malakir
Painter's Servant
Price of Progress
Aquamoeba/Wild Mongrel

There's plenty more, and many of them are creatures unaffected by Spell Pierce. Daze basically isn't countering any of these after turn two, and I have anyway dropped it long time ago for it messing up and slowing my early game too often.

This truly is a solid deck.

[Esper3k]

combo and landstil are quite easy after SB.
Heavy agro decks (goblins,zoo) are hard with out SB, I most of the time lose 1st and win the other 2, It is rare to lose 2 games Vs an agro deck.
So on the second it is even easier to win couse you will have ansers and threats that they can not keep up with. Also keep in mind that most ppl think that band survival need graveyard, thats a great misstake cause it does not matter to remove sqee, wonder even iona when you have nothing against a huge goyf or a rhox+rafiq.

What do you have in the sideboard that makes you believe that the Landstill matchup gets easy postboard?

[dan who?]

I played two UBg Landstill matches at SCG 5k in MN and won both of them. I saved my forces to counter big problem cards like Jace and kept applying pressure to the board while not over extending into deed. I also run spell snare's main and that helped counter things like counterspell, standstill, and loam. Kira helped against their targeted removal and Jace as well.


Regarding other things, I want to assess whether Spell Snare is actually a good option to Spell Pierce. These widely played targets make me want to suggest it for a large tournament with diverse meta:
Qasali Pridemage
Survival of the Fittest
Tarmogoyf
Dark Confidant
Umezawa's Jitte
Counterbalance
Counterspell
Gatekeeper of Malakir
Painter's Servant
Price of Progress
Aquamoeba/Wild Mongrel

There's plenty more, and many of them are creatures unaffected by Spell Pierce. Daze basically isn't countering any of these after turn two, and I have anyway dropped it long time ago for it messing up and slowing my early game too often.

This truly is a solid deck.

I've been running 3 spell snares main ever since JACO suggested it in his Bant Survival Article some months ago and they've been great. I played in a small tournament this past weekend and in the top 8 I played against The Rock. I was able to snare two of his confidants early and I felt that won me the game and match because he couldn't generate card advantage and was stuck on lands while I was able to develop my board.

[Blitzbold]

So Bant Survival took 1st place at GP Bochum's sideevent (http://www.deckcheck.org/?x=8QRflGWV2M4iF31hlGRfiavdy8N4y8). But what a weird list it is? I know the pilot personally, and he is a good one, but I don't get the reasons for such a strange list.

[Waikiki]

Damn 4 shamans and only 3 survivals no iona retainer. Weird list indeed.

[Hopo]

Those Shaman versions seem to be all over the place, they are now tried and played in many versions of survival decks. I personally have some interest in the card but not in Bant Survival. I just see my list as really solid and tight right now. The best thing with this deck is that you have a solid and proven game plan even without survival.

[CaBaaL]

why there are 4 shamans in the list? Any ideas? Do they worth to be full set? Are they so much better than iona+retainers?
I understand that they make the deck more stable but i think they are the worst topdeck especialy if you have survival or you need an anser but you can not use her due to summoning sickness.

[Dark Zero]

I don't think 4 they are worth the full set in Bant Survival.

If you have survival, they aren't a worse topdeck than every other creature. But I agree with you, if you need an answer in time the shaman is simply a bad card. I don't think they are better as iona + retainers because Iona in fact is the thing which puts BantSur to a higher level. I don't know how much games seemed to go pretty bad and then you could simply go for iona and turn the gamestate in your favor.

The shamans make those other survival archetypes more stable, but for BantSur, with its options for digging with brainstorm/ponder or protecting your survival, they aren't as important as an "I win" button.

Speaking of all that, it's really a weird list. But Tobias is very good player and especially with Bant Survival that matters alot. :>

[Blitzbold]

I talked briefly with Tobias about his choices.

Here's the essence of his arguments:

- Vendilion Clique is great

- Setup of 7 Survivals (4 Shaman + 3 SotF):
-> Shaman is never dead, even if drawn in multiples
-> hatecards can miss: there were two or three matches where he looked at his opponent's hand through Clique and found useless Grips there

- No Retainer / Iona
-> he tried to minimize the useless cards in his basic 60; often even Squee was a dead draw for him
-> + Iona + Retainer would mean 3 / 60 bad topdecks most of the time

- Jace TMS
-> wasn't that impressive and will be replaced
-> probably Rafiq + x

[Esper3k]

I had tested Fauna Shaman and simply wasn't impressed by it.

If you're behind, it's a terrible draw and if you already have Survival out, it's just the same as another creature.

For me, what I like most about Bant Survival is that it's actually not super reliant upon Survival. You have plenty of ability to play like Bant Aggro if you don't get Survival to stick and if you do... well it gets kinda hard to lose then.

[CaBaaL]

have anyone tried with splash red for firespout on SB? i am temped to add anger too, have anyone tried it out?

[Muela]

have anyone tried with splash red for firespout on SB? i am temped to add anger too, have anyone tried it out?

I've been there and not so good... I tried a taiga in the SB with some firespout (mainly vs 'folks) and you get the risk of wastelands plus, risking not to be enough dmg. I prefer Llawan.

IMHO, splashing a 4th colour is bad idea and really hard to keep the blue accout for the FoW.

[CaBaaL]

I've been there and not so good... I tried a taiga in the SB with some firespout (mainly vs 'folks) and you get the risk of wastelands plus, risking not to be enough dmg. I prefer Llawan.

IMHO, splashing a 4th colour is bad idea and really hard to keep the blue accout for the FoW.

I mostly think firespout against random junk and goblins that I have in my meta, merfolks is never an isue I have never lost a single tournament game vs folks.

[Esper3k]

I've tried the splash for Firespout before and was never really overly impressed by it.

For Merfolk, it actually wasn't very good because you open yourself up further to Wasteland and it's actually pretty tough to resolve against them (say they have a Cursecatcher on board and a Daze in their hand, it really costs 5 mana now).

[Julian23]

I mostly think firespout against random junk and goblins that I have in my meta, merfolks is never an isue I have never lost a single tournament game vs folks.

Which indicates a low significance of your results. Merfolk is just one of those decks, (blue) decks will just every once in a while plain and simple lose to.

[CaBaaL]

just returned from a local tournament, my list is:


creature
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Loyal Retainers
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Rafiq of the Many
2 Rhox War Monk
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Trygon Predator
1 Wonder
1 etternal witness
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 venrtilion clinic

instant
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 spell pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares

sorcery
2 Ponder

enchantment
4 Survival of the Fittest

land
3 Forest
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
2 Savannah
4 Tropical Island
3 Windswept Heath
2 flooded
61 cards


Sideboard:
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 ethersworn canonist
2 Krosan Grip
3 Path to Exile
2 tom. crypt
1 emrakul
1 peacekeeper (there were some madness survival and i wanted to be prepared)
2 meddling mage

15 cards


1st game VS ravager

i do not know what he is playing so i mull to six and keep a more stable hand with force noble and survival, he starts good but i am out of reach with 3 swords and 2 tarmogoyfs

-iona package +3 paths and 2 grips

easy win with 2 paths and 2 swords clearing everything he drops, pridemage for his plating and double striking predator seals the deal fast

1/0

2nd game vs TES

epic hand with 2 forces and tarmogoyf gets his low fast spell pierce wins the game

-swords +hatebears + emrakul

ends up that he have removed all the combo for tarmogoyfs and rest beaters. My exalted goyfs force him to go defence and top deck survival for wonder ends the game

2/0

3rd game vs enchanter W/G/b/r

He is considered to be a good player but i know his deck list (was sitting behind him on previous round) and he thinks that i play madness survival. He starts extremely good and he draws alot of cards punishing me for keeping a non-counter hand but his smile freezes on turn3 iona on white, he continue drawing cards but his only win condition is words at war now. i get kira for extra protection and iona seals the deal fast

-swords +ether canonist,- witness,+2meddling, 2 grips +emrakul for grave hate (i should add grave hate cause he had repelish)

i keep 1 land hand but with 2 noble 2 meddling mage,force and brainstorm my 8th is spell pierce. i manage to counter enchantress but he has 2 more.. My meddling mages (one for oblivion ring and one for worlds at war(it should be krosan's grisp) + ether canonist manage to stall him long enought to get him to 6 life and resolve predator. he grips my canonist and i start losing to pegasous-enchantment, time is running low (5mins) so i scoop to get to 3rd (btw he started with leyline of the void in game)

he agains start with leyline but i am on play and exploration meets my pierce, goyf enter as 4/5 and his 1st enchanteress meets force of will he tries to stabilize but he has to block my exalted double striking goyf that attacks for 10 (had rafiq on my openning) 1st turn of the extra rounds he toutors for solitary confiment but it meets my grip (i had it from my opening too) double striking goyf ends the game on 2nd turn of the extra.

PS: i really wanted to have spell snare on this for his enchantress or pyroclasm/firespout.

3/0

4th game Vs goblin R/w

he starts with a lackey but i have force for him i drop a noble hierarch and he has a fanatic+an other lackey..
i drop goyf and he has swords so lackey connects for a ringleader that reaveals 4 goblins... i scoop fast 2 turns after..

- spell pierce + paths

i start with noble and he swords him thinking i kept a low-land-hand, but 3 tarmogoyfs and survival punish him i haven't draw and removals but a turn before he scoops i have a full set of flying goyfs.

i keep a hand with 3 swords, 2 paths and fetch lands my 8th is kira game gets under control fast by his goblins getting removed or killed by goyf kira, rafiq and wonder force him to get to scoop mode

4/0

5th vs zoo

we id and i get 1st getting some fetshlands

some thoughts splashing red for firespout for enchantresses it was the only game that i wanted spell snare because he gets out of spell pierce's threat area fast.
what is the best hate card vs enchanter?

[Waikiki]

vs enchantress I normally get an Iona out on white. which nullifies most threads. Good cards against the deck aswell would be pridemage/predator and some ench sweeper.



@All. Im trying to revisit the deck and I like the 4/3 fauna/ survival setup with alot of flying (clique/predator) What are you guys running nowadays?

[Nidd]

What is the justification for running less than 4 Survival?

[Esper3k]

I was thinking maybe he intended it to be 4 survival 3 shaman?

[Nidd]

Im trying to revisit the deck and I like the 4/3 fauna/ survival setup with alot of flying (clique/predator) What are you guys running nowadays?
Sounds like 4 Fauna, 3 Survival to me.

[Waikiki]

So Bant Survival took 1st place at GP Bochum's sideevent (http://www.deckcheck.org/?x=8QRflGWV2M4iF31hlGRfiavdy8N4y8). But what a weird list it is? I know the pilot personally, and he is a good one, but I don't get the reasons for such a strange list.

Thats more of the reference I made. I like where that deck is going. I do think aswell that it should be 4 survival 3 fauna shaman in that case.