[DTW] Bant Survival

[CaBaaL]

Thats more of the reference I made. I like where that deck is going. I do think aswell that it should be 4 survival 3 fauna shaman in that case.


Since we do not pack vengenvines IMO the deck does not need that much survival efects. But the idea about 3 cliniques MD is really good. They are the best answer to standstill, combo and with hierarch puts a 5turn clock (also avoids f@cking perish and hibernation)

[Waikiki]

Why exactly dont we like the extra survival effects? Getting iona retainer or more tutors are pretty good imo.

[Kuma]

Why exactly dont we like the extra survival effects? Getting iona retainer or more tutors are pretty good imo.

Best case scenario:

Turn one: Land, Hierarch

Turn two: Land, Fauna Shaman

...assuming it lives...

Turn three: Activate Fauna Shaman, get Iona.

Turn four: Land, Activate Fauna Shaman, get Loyal Retainers

First off, it's a turn slower than Survival. Second, it's pretty easy for them to kill it after you discard a useful creature for Iona or Squee. Third, 2/2's are horrible against creature decks. Fourth, what are you cutting for Fauna Shaman? How do the cuts affect your other matchups? The biggest advantage Bant Survival has over other Survival decks is that it doesn't suck without a Survival. We don't need the extra survival effects as much as those combo decks do.

I'd rather have Meddling Mage/Vendilion Clique/Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

[Hopo]

I say Fauna Shaman is not for Bant survival. The main reason for this is that Survival isn't broken in this deck. Basically survival is there to give you a better lategame than aggro decks usually have. If you cut 3-4 cards for shamans -worse survivals-, the deck loses a lot of it's aggro potential because you need to remove the bulk aggro creatures as there's no point in cutting survival targets by adding more survival effects. Also, for a shaman to be truly useful, you need Quirion Ranger or Scryb Ranger. That means more bad creatures which do not clock the opponent basically at all.

The way I see it, the deck is mainly an aggro-control deck. In addition to that, survival + Squee gives the deck a solid lategame. Loyal Retainers + Iona is a random combo and the only broken thing this deck can do. Adding Fauna Shaman means turning this into a shitty survival-dependant survival deck. Right now I'm winning more and more games because people are hating on survival in the fear of Vengevines and that doesn't even matter when your main plan is to aggro out with solid creatures while countering opponent's spells.

Fauna Shaman is great when survival is your win condition. Here it is not, hence shaman is not needed.

[Waikiki]

Fair enough. So people agree the current build is capable of overcoming all the decks out there right now?

[Gui]

Thats more of the reference I made. I like where that deck is going. I do think aswell that it should be 4 survival 3 fauna shaman in that case.

Was just reading by, but I believe the guy over there just said it was 4 Shamans because he doesn't care to draw them in multiples, and because survival hate will often miss (i.e. board in anti-enchants or name Survival with neddle)

[Esper3k]

Yeah to me, the biggest strength of this deck is that it's not dependant upon Survival to win and when you don't resolve / Survival is dealt with, you have plenty of ways to kill them.

I've tested Fauna Shaman and have always just found it extremely underwhelming. On top of the reasons that others have outlined, playing 4 of them significantly lowers the blue card count in your deck (unless you're going to cut creatures like Tarmogoyf...).

[Jak]

Throwing Fauna Shaman in is a bad idea. With a current build, you can;t abuse it like you could with Ooze Survival or any other one with Venegvine. Bant Survival just isn't a combo deck. The only reason other Survival builds are playing them is because they use Quirion Rangers to make them good and they are much more focused on comboing out early. Bant Survival really doesn't have the room or that goal in mind.

Of course, if you change the build up enough Fauna Shamans could be good, but then you wouldn't be running Bant Survival.

[CaBaaL]

Bant survival ripped a new one in my metagame. I top1-3 in every tournament and i got a mox ruby and a juzam djinn with this deck. The best thing is that you can easyly change it for any meta (splashing extra color extripate, firespout) and dodge any hate they might have. (GY hate? rhox+flyers, shut down Survival? goyf FTW).

[GGoober]

Yupp, IMO this deck is overlooked and I personally it's the strongest of all Survival variants even with Vengevival around. The deal is: Vengevival is going to get hated, but not bant Survival, and if it does get hated, you have a good Bant deck to fall on that continues to pound face with Goyfs instead of Mongrels and Baskings.

I just realized, if Survival gets the banhammer, then all these Established Survival threads are going to wait in their graves for potential future necro. So sad if WotC ever presses the button. So very sad... But here's hoping that SotF is here to stick and decks like these (aka cool Survival decks) will continue to be played. It's funny how I was involved quite heavily with this deck when it first started out (check out first few thread pages), then I took a break from Legacy for 6 months and Iona got reprinted. Now the deck looks way better than it looks before, although it'll hurt me if SotF gets banned and this just becomes a Bant Aggro thread..

[Nidd]

Fauna Shaman isn't really an alternative, right?

[CaBaaL]

Yupp, IMO this deck is overlooked and I personally it's the strongest of all Survival variants even with Vengevival around. The deal is: Vengevival is going to get hated, but not bant Survival, and if it does get hated, you have a good Bant deck to fall on that continues to pound face with Goyfs instead of Mongrels and Baskings.

I just realized, if Survival gets the banhammer, then all these Established Survival threads are going to wait in their graves for potential future necro. So sad if WotC ever presses the button. So very sad... But here's hoping that SotF is here to stick and decks like these (aka cool Survival decks) will continue to be played. It's funny how I was involved quite heavily with this deck when it first started out (check out first few thread pages), then I took a break from Legacy for 6 months and Iona got reprinted. Now the deck looks way better than it looks before, although it'll hurt me if SotF gets banned and this just becomes a Bant Aggro thread..


Most probably i will make a ProBant with counterTop. Even if it is not as good as it used to be, it's one of the decks that have control-agro-combo element. Also i think that combo deck will uprise if survival get banned and countertop is the best against them.
BTW i tried Vengervine-survival and it felt really weak in my meta (agro 40% , control 20%, combo 20%, TOTAL RANDOM JUNK 20%) especially against junk (leyline of the void mainboard (?!) survival (remeber ATS?) allways had junk decks as good MU and vengervinemadness loses this for fast combo.

AS for Fauna shaman i do not think it will replace survival... most probably the deck will die and w8 till Rise od eldrasi rotates out of type2 and vengervine gets banned to legacy.

[Waikiki]

I doubt survival will get banned anyways.

[Muela]

I doubt survival will get banned anyways.

Logic tells me the same, but there are so many people in /cry-mode and flaming that I am starting to doubt the banning :-/

[Waikiki]

People here in NL and Belgium have adjusted to the deck just fine. It's one of the most played deck but just doesn't hit T8's that often and certainly not first place.

Dutch national was won by ANT and so was the Belgium national..... which is a perfect answer to survival.

[CaBaaL]

People here in NL and Belgium have adjusted to the deck just fine. It's one of the most played deck but just doesn't hit T8's that often and certainly not first place.

Dutch national was won by ANT and so was the Belgium national..... which is a perfect answer to survival.

You are speaking for survival madness? cause it is over-played here too (greece) but with little success (too much hate MD) and too many combo decks.
As for survival i think Wizards will suprise as and ban intuition or something stupid like rootwalla and not survival cause its money-maker

[Waikiki]

Ye I was talking about vengevine survival. I do get a little scared they will ban survival tho. How should I earn my rating now?

[practical joke]

Ye I was talking about vengevine survival. I do get a little scared they will ban survival tho. How should I earn my rating now?

I'll take your rating = )

Survival is high likely to be banned, but this isn't the topic to discuss that (silver bullets and such)


If you have no clue what to play, play goblins.

or craft something new, which is always enjoyable.

[Cenarius]

What do you consider to be the best configuration of Creatures, Spells and Lands?

[Julian23]

http://static.twoday.net/nachbarland/images/rip.gif

Rest in peace, Bant Survival. We really had a fucking great time! Thanks for everyone who has been posting in this thread, especially Waikiki and Jak. In case you didn't know, the upcoming B&R article depicts Survival of the Fittest on its frontpage. Doesn't look good to me :-(.

[Waikiki]

Well they did the same thing with sensei top which is still here ;)

[Kuma]

*sigh*

God damn it.

One of the many fair decks that has become a casualty of Vengevine.

Thanks, Bant Survival. It was one hell of a year.

[Esper3k]

Yeah, I played it again this weekend because I wanted to take it for one last spin before Survival got banned.

Sadly, I'm thinking my Loyal Retainers just plummeted in value :(

[Waikiki]

Rip

[Jak]

And I just finished the primer!

R.I.P. One of the best decks I have ever had the chance to play. Won me more games than ever and I had a blast in everyone of them.

[sdematt]

I haven't checked the news, but I'm assuming from these posts, Survival is dead.

Well, once again, the DCI has prematurely acted. Huzzah... *sarcasm* My favourite and first deck in Type 1.5 has finally been killed. It's been a good 10 years, Survival. RIP.

-Matt

[Koby]

Big question now: is Fauna Shaman viable in place of Survival?

Obviously it's more vulnerable, but is it still workable?

[Hopo]

Big question now: is Fauna Shaman viable in place of Survival?

Obviously it's more vulnerable, but is it still workable?

I see the need of dropping majority of the targets if you start using Shaman since landing one doesn't guarantee any activations from it. I would try it with only Iona + Retainers and see how it goes. While resolving a survival was huge, resolving a shaman is lousy, clunky and slow. I still think that Iona might be good enough to try at least. Most likely the deck will either change drastically or just cease to exist now.

[Skargath]

I play a version of this with fauna shaman, and it has been treating me well online, Hopo is right, targets go down, iona plan works a lot of the time. I end up using fauna shaman as bait 3/4 the time against control, the base of the deck is pretty strong (although i dont run war monk, instead using sovereigns, and eldrazi conscription as a 3rd win condition). Fauna shaman is clunky but works great as bait IMO.

[Waikiki]

your really relying on a 6 mana win condition ?

Also if we want to try to play without survival this would be what im guessing for:

// Lands
3 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [A] Savannah
1 [A] Tundra
2 [UG] Forest
1 [UG] Island
1 [UG] Plains

// Creatures
4 [M11] Fauna Shaman
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
2 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic

// Spells
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
2 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [M10] Ponder
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice

Perhaps some jaces could be in there. I dont know if we would like to run squee.

[Hopo]

I wouldn't feel comfortable having Squee in my deck without survival. I can take one Iona, but that's it when it comes to tutorable targets.
As Rafiq is really powerful, how about some more of them? Obviously the deck starts to look like bant aggro at that point, but it never was too far away from it anyway. I don't even know if it's worth the effort to try to make shamans work. They are by far the worst creatures in the deck in my opinion. Iona is still crazy good at times, though. Go figure.