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Jak
04-21-2009, 12:16 AM
Bant Survival

Table of Contents
1) Introduction
2) Constructing the Deck
-Core Decklist
-Remaining Options
-Sideboard Options
-Sample Decklist
3) Playing the Deck
4) Matchup Analysis
5) Accomplishments
6) Reading Material
7) Credits


Introduction
Survival of the Fittest was a card heavily played in the early days of Type 1.5 because of the card advantage and tutoring power the two mana enchantment could produce. Decks such as Angry Tradewind Survival, Survival Advantage, Rec Sur, and many other variants were made to abuse it. However, Survival archetypes were pushed aside due to the format gaining new powerful combo decks, another two mana enchantment (Counterbalance), and the format, in general, getting faster. Survival decks had trouble with speed and an over-reliance on Survival due to too many dead slots, narrow creatures, and basically, a whole deck that worked when Survival was in play, but folded if it didn't. The format had veered away from Survival of the Fittest decks, but some recent additions have put it back in the spot light.

Bant Survival is the new Survival of the Fittest contender that I got started on when trying to incorporate a better late game in the older Threshold decks. I hated the fact that if a control deck could "outlast" me; they usually won with their superior card advantage and more powerful cards. This led me to multiple things like Intuition, Gifts, a Thresh-Landstill hybrid, and most notably, Survival. Survival was obviously the direction I chose to go with due to the printing of some fantastic creatures in recent sets: Noble Hierarch, Rhox War Monk, Vendilion Clique, Qasali Pridemage, Trygon Predator, etc. It was much different from where I started, but it worked nonetheless. From posting this original thread, the deck picked up and got worked on and tweaked continually until it is where you see it today, top 8ing tournaments across the globe.


Constructing the Deck
Bant Survival is a GUw Survival of the Fittest deck that utilizes some of the best creatures in the game as offensive and control elements and the most efficient spells in the format. A thing this deck wants to avoid is losing without Survival. It inevitably happens, but it is very important that the deck functions without Survival. Why? Because Survival won't turn up every game, it won't resolve every game, and it won't stick around every game. This deck is exceptionally good at doing that. It relies on the tempo that the inexpensive answers and creatures create to abuse the game-winning card in, Survival of the Fittest or play better without it. With that in mind, it is necessary for the deck to include:

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will

These are the most efficient spells in the colors of Bant. Brainstorm is vital at smoothing out draws, fixing mana, and of course digging for Survival. More often than not, you will be playing Survival-less and having the creatures to play or the spells to cast is important to actually winning the game and Brainstorm brings you into the powerful cards this deck holds. Swords to Plowshares is the best removal spell in the format and handles almost anything. There isn't much to say when you are paying one mana to remove their creature that was 2-3 times more expensive. Force of Will is a free spell that can keep Bant Survival from losing and help resolve Survival and win. It is a necessary evil, but an integral part of the deck. It allows the deck to keep laying down threats and disrupt the opponent, something other Survival builds lack. The deck relies on these cheap cards so that it can allocate resources elsewhere, like playing Survival or any of creatures in the deck and still have protection against combo decks or to protect your investment.

The creatures are also the most efficient that the colors of Bant have to offer and can answer a wide array of situations like a Survival deck should. Survival should be able to pull you out of things because it is that powerful and if you build the deck right, you should win when it lands. With the recent additions of creatures that are cheaper and more powerful, it gave Survival of the Fittest new tools to put it back as a deck to beat in Legacy. Speed is a big concern for Survival since it is a mana intensive engine and when you are tutoring up expensive answers and beaters, the deck fails to keep up with the format. The colors of Bant have gained the tools to stay in the game and out last the opponent. The necessary creatures are:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Every deck list should start with this core 16. It has the best acceleration in Noble Hierarch, the most efficient beater in the format in Tarmogoyf, the quickest answer to Artifacts and Enchantments in Qasali Pridemage, the best aggro stopper in Rhox War Monk, the best card advantage engine (when paired with SotF) in Squee, Goblin Nabob, and a game winning combo in Iona/Retainers. The creatures are both tools Survival can grab but also great threats on their own. Something you should consider when building your creature base is; is this a card you would hate to see when drawing it without any other creature or Survival?

The manabase is pretty simple. This is a Survival deck so green mana is the primary color. The deck may run more blue mana symbols, but the fact that Noble Hierarch can produce blue is very important. The more green mana, the more powerful Survival can be. Blue is the close secondary color and white follows both of those as a splash for Swords and quite a few creatures. With the printing of the Zendikar fetchlands, the manabase became incredibly resilient. All fetches can grab any land in the deck with the exception of one basic which makes Wasteland simple to play around and Moon effects terrible. The manabase should be 18-20 lands. The deck isn't as mana hungry as Survival builds of old and can operate fine on 2-3 lands with Brainstorm (and Ponder if you run it) helping out occasionally to dig for them as well. A common manabase is:

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

This allows for the best color consistency and mana denial protection. Eight fetchlands can get any color in the deck and turns Wasteland, one of the most format defining cards, off. The synergy with Brainstorm is always nice so having a large amount goes well for that combo. The duals are all green because more green producing lands plays better with Survival. A high basic count helps stabilize the mana in the face of all the hate out there. I definitely recommend going up to 19 or 20 lands. I have run 18 fine a few times but the occasional mana screw was happening too much. A Tundra, additional Savannah, or an extra basic Island/Forest is a good option.

With all of that together, the core decklist is something like this.

Core Decklist
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will

I am positive I am forgetting something though... Oh yeah...

4 Survival of the Fittest

I cringe when I see builds running less than four. This is the focal point of the deck and it is what makes the deck tick. SotF is a win if left unchecked and left alone to acquire card advantage or the game winning combo. Run four.


Remaining Options
That is 49 cards. The remaining 11 can go to a variety of cards for different matchups or personal play style. By that, I mean the deck can be played a few different ways. Adding more creatures to lean on the aggressor side or playing some more counters to play more as a controlling deck. Both can depend on the meta. Here are a few options for the remaining 11 slots.

19th Land – This should either go to a third Savannah or a Tundra. 19 lands gives a more stable mana base and can help with consistency if you play with a higher curve with more three casting cost creatures. It can also be beneficial in a meta with Pox, Sui Black, Eva Green, Canadian Threshold, Loam, etc decks.

Jace, the Mind Sculptor – It has been interesting watching this card develop in people’s minds. Now that most blue decks are packing 2-4, running him is becoming more appealing. For one, he can win the game on his own and is just a powerful card. The second reason to run him is to have an answer for your opponents.

Ponder – A supplementary card to Brainstorm. A weaker version of Brainstorm, but has all the same pros as it does. It improves consistency, smoothens draws, and is a great way to dig out Survival or other answers.

Spell Snare – An additional counter helps the deck play more controlling against combo and aggro decks. Spell Snare stops a large number of Legacy staples as well as common cards that really hurt Bant Survival. It is unable to hit many powerful cards that can come early or later in the game, though.

Spell Pierce – Another narrow counter, like Spell Snare, but much more effective at resolving Survival and stopping cards like Sensei’s Divining Top and Aether Vial. Sadly, it can’t hit creatures which really limits its use against some decks.

Daze – It can hit a broader number of cards than Spell Snare or Spell Pierce and allows the deck to tap out and still have protection/disruption available like Force of Will. The problem is that it can set the deck back on tempo and it ends up being dead later on in the game.

Spellstutter Sprite – A card that has fallen out of favor recently because it is sometimes too slow to stop things you need it to like Aether Vial or Sensei’s Divining Top and it requires leaving mana open in a deck that wants to play its creatures aggressively. It is still a quality card that is great versus ANT, Zoo, Canadian Thresh, and any deck that has plenty of cheap cards. Sprite is a fantastic target for Survival to stop burn spells, removal, cantrips, and to lock up the game with multiple faeries in play.

Vendilion Clique – Clique is a card that does “it” for the deck in multiple ways. It is never truly bad because it is a solid beater that can jump in the way of an attacker for the kill or fly over the stand-offs. Against combo, it is a great disruption piece and beater and against control, flashing it in at the end of their turn can leave the path open for Tarmogoyf or Survival.

Trygon Predator – Qasali Pridemage does the same thing, right? Not really. Trygon Predator is great versus Stax and Enchantress as well as being a slow answer to the random artifacts and enchantments that Qasali Pridemage can hit. Predator is a good choice to diversify the curve to get around Counterbalance easier or a Chalice at two. It’s an effective card in specific situations and decent in others while also being a good beater with evasion.

Eternal Witness – A staple in Survival decks for years because it can get back that fallen Survival. Witness is a card to tutor up when you suspect Survival could be blown or to get back a Swords for that Lord of Atlantis or to get back a Tarmogoyf. A nice piece of insurance that is never terrible when drawn.

Kira, Great Glass-Spinner – Kira is an effective answer to the rise of Zoo and Lands as well as being decent against anything with targeted removal. It is valuable as a one of to grab and lock up the game.

Rafiq, of the Many – The original finisher because it can act as a pseudo Anger, coming out of nowhere and deal large amounts of damage. It can make any creature deal very large amounts and with Rhox, it can double the life gain. It has mostly been phased out, since having the five mana to pitch a creature and play Rafiq, is probably better off going towards Iona. It may still have a place because it does interact well with Rhox, is a legend and therefore a target for Retainers if the win is there or Iona is unavailable, and is not a bad draw.

Wonder – A card that has also mostly been phased out since Iona is the main finisher and has flying. Wonder is great at making the army fly over the ground so that Rhox War Monks can gain life untouched, or a Tarmogoyf can fly over. It has been removed because slots are limited and when your finisher has flying, it becomes redundant, but still holds value when the numbers of Rhox War Monks, Tarmogoyfs, etc go up.

Sower of Temptation – As a one of, it gives the deck an out to big huge monsters that Goyfs can’t matchup against. It can swing games if the opponent has his/her pants down, but it is vulnerable without something like CounterTop backing it up.

Meddling Mage – Disruption in the form of creatures is something this deck loves. Obviously, other “hate bears” like Gaddock Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist are anti-synergistic with the deck, so Meddling Mage is the only main deck option. Builds running this have it in the Spell Snare/Daze/Spell Pierce slot, usually as a three to four of. It is much more versatile and effective but it is much slower.

Jotun Grunt – Most people hate the card in general because when you think about it, it sucks. A creature that is smaller than Tarmogoyf with an expiration date? Sucks. In reality, it is an efficient beater that can be used to recycle lost cards like tutored creatures or as a way to hate on graveyard dependent decks.


Sideboard Options
Playing Survival means you are lucky when it comes to sideboarding. Most of the matchups are even and favorable with very few terrible matchups. This makes sideboarding very good because you can board to beat anything based on what you expect to see. Most things in your sideboard will be cards to improve matchups from even to favorable.

The Bant colors have a lot to offer in terms of hate cards, general answers, and good disruption. To make your sideboard, you should really have a good idea of what you expect to see. If you expect a lot of combo, having Spell Pierce and hate bears like Meddling Mage, Gaddock Teeg, or Ethersworn Canonist makes the matchup very easy. Control? Krosan Grips, Genesis, Spell Pierce, hate bears, and maybe even graveyard hate can be beneficial. Aggro? Kitchen Finks, Umezawa’s Jitte, Propaganda/Ghostly Prison and Path to Exile are great answers to swarms and fast rushes. There are limitless options but coming up with the right combination can make or break your tournament.

I’ll cover most of the options to just get everything out there so that the supplies are there to put the sideboard together.

Krosan Grip – Qasali Pridemage and Trygon Predator are great answers, but some of the time they aren’t enough. They don’t do it against Counterbalance some of the time, they are counter-able, Humility eats them alive, etc. Having a reliable answer to these things as well as others is important.

Path to Exile – It supplements Swords well and is needed versus faster aggro decks like Zoo and Goblins to hold off the initial rush. Path is also invaluable against Merfolk at picking off the Lords.

Ghostly Prison/Propaganda – Swarms hurt the deck a lot since you need Survival or you lose. Tribal decks can overrun Bant Survival easily, so having a nice way to stall until you can stabilize with the better threats is a good way to win. The taxing effects are also amazing at Ichorid and almost make it impossible for them to win. The right one to run is difficult to say; blue is easier to cast, but can be hit by REB and white is harder to cast. A split might be the best if run.

Umezawa’s Jitte – One of the best aggro hate cards because it can create card advantage, gain life, and pump your dude to finish the game faster. Jitte is really effective in this deck because of all the flying guys as well.

Hydroblast/Blue Elemental Blast – Still very good against Goblins at countering Ringleader, Matron, and Goblin Warchief and decks with burn. However, with Zoo becoming less reliant on red with the cutting of some to all of its red creatures, it is less effective against them.

Tormod’s Crypt – General graveyard hate that usually will go alongside a Faerie Macabre or two. In order to beat Ichorid consistently, this is a necessity or they will overrun you with their larger “hand”. Better than Relic of Progenitus because it doesn’t hurt the Survival engine or Tarmogoyf and is free.

Pithing Needle – A versatile and cheap card that answers problems like Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Thopter Foundry, Aether Vial, Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Mutavault, Engineered Explosives, Mother of Runes, and many other things that could give the deck fits.

Cold-Eyed Selkie – Blue is the most played color in the format by a mile and this card is great against all of them. Protecting him from removal against a blue deck and allowing him to hit once will usually garner you 2-3 cards and just puts you far ahead.

Faerie Macabre – As mentioned above, Faerie Macabre is used in Survival as a tutor-able way to get rid of Loam, Reanimator targets, Ichorids, etc at instant speed. Running one to two is a good idea.

Genesis – In a heavy board control metagame, Genesis provides inevitability and card advantage. Control decks cannot beat you if all your threats keep coming back for more. It is mana intensive and this deck is favorable against decks like Landstill, Truffle Shuffle, Quinn, etc so it may not be worth the one slot.

Gaddock Teeg – Another hate bear like Meddling Mage that can shut down combo and control. It turns off Force of Will, however, and modern lists of ANT have an easy out to him. Against control, it still is a beating.

Ethersworn Canonist – The best hate bear against combo because they can’t win with it in play and they have to jump through major hoops to remove it. It has no other applications which makes it a narrow sideboard card.

Kitchen Finks – Rhox War Monk should probably be played as a four of in your 75 cards so Kitchen Finks is a great supplement to the rhino. It often takes out two goblins while gaining four life or take down a Nacatl, block another, and gain four life.

Llawan, Cephalid Empress – Merfolk is played in heavy numbers so one hate card isn’t too much to ask for. If this resolves against them, you win. It also is an amazing answer to Progenitus.

Emrakul, the Aeons Torn – The initial thought is that this is there for Loyal Retainers, but it is also amazing protection against graveyard hate as well. It can also recycle your creatures for Survival to keep churning them out. But of course you can still cheat it into play with Loyal Retainers by having Retainers in play, discarding him, put his trigger on the stack, and sacrifice Retainers to reanimate him. He’s great at coming in against Enchantress and control as a means to wipe their board.

Spore Frog – With Genesis or Emrakul this can set up a nice lock versus aggro. Without it, it fogs for a turn and really isn’t worth it. The two need to be run in combination. The lock is easily breakable with an instant removal spell, however. It is fantastic against Ichorid, though.

Loaming Shaman – Graveyard hate attached to a tutor so you can grab it with Survival. This is much more effective than Faerie Macabre when the opponent has already dredged his deck or if Loam has pulled plenty of things into its yard. Shaman is also effective at, like Jotun Grunt, recycling cards back into the deck.


Sample Decklist
My decklist has been constantly changing since the day I made it. Many slots regularly change because of trying to adapt to the meta, new cards, or optimization. In all the tournaments I have been to and done well, I think every list has been slightly different. That is the beauty of Bant Survival. Without further ado, here is my list.

Bant Survival
By Jak.
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Meddling Mage
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Trygon Predator
1 Wonder
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

1 Flex Slot

Sideboard
3 Spell Pierce
3 Path to Exile
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress

Matchups
Zoo
Pre-board: Zoo can get out to a very fast start so mitigating the life loss is very important until you can stick a Rhox War Monk or stabilize at all. The creatures you want to keep off the table are Grim Lavamancer, because it can take down every creature in the deck with exception of Tarmogoyf and RWM, and Knight of the Reliquary because it is bigger than everything. The matchup gets better for us as the turns go by, so lasting until the late game is key.

-4 Force of Will
-2 Vendilion Clique

+3 Path to Exile
+2 Umezawa’s Jitte
+1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

Force of Will is a fast answer to cards like Steppe Lynx and Wild Nacatl, but the card disadvantage and life loss isn’t worth it, and going down on cards that early is likely to not win you the game. Sideboarding also takes too many blue cards out of the deck to effectively have Force + blue card. Vendilion Clique is lackluster because of how weak it is defensively and it costs three. Path to Exile comes in as a quick answer to their fast beaters and as a way to get rid of their larger guys later on. Umezawa’s Jitte is the card advantage you want against them, eliminating multiple threats, countering their burn, and pumping our dudes to sizes bigger than theirs. Kira turns off their removal or makes it straight card disadvantage.

Post-board: The deck becomes packed with removal to slow them down. Jitte and Survival are too many targets for Grip as long as you can keep Qasali Pridemage from hitting one of them. Their clock becomes a lot slower when they sideboard hate in for Survival and with the deck having more cheap removal. It is a lot easier to setup, stick a few creatures, pick off their important ones, and take the advantage.

Merfolk
Pre-board: Merfolk beats you by hindering you enough so that it can drop Lord of Atlantis and have unblockable dudes. Fetching basics helps prevent this to negate their Wastelands. Most builds don’t run Stifle, but it is still wise to be careful of it and fetch at opportune times (i.e. when they are tapped out after Vial and end of their turn so that they have to leave mana open through their turn). Getting enough lands into play is not hard so play around Daze, which leaves them with only Force to counter all of your better cards. Swords, counter, or do whatever to keep Lord of Atlantis off the table. Doing all of this is hard when they have the disruption, the protection from Vial, and the card advantage from Standstill, but as long as you keep their weenies tiny they can’t do much.

-3 Meddling Mage

+3 Path to Exile
+2 Umezawa’s Jitte
+1 Llawan

Path to Exile is great at picking off their Lords, Jitte can stop their swarms and pick off their dudes, and Llawan is the game breaker against them. Most of the cards in the deck are fine against Merfolk. Nothing is really dead so you need to cut cards that don’t do much for you. The deck can still function without the slight acceleration and mana fixing of Noble Hierarch

eq.firemind
04-21-2009, 03:35 AM
Hey, nice idea! The main reason I try to build this is that I want to play Noble Hierarch in Legacy.

About deck: I think you can cut Gigapede. You already have Genesis for lategame.

Another thing to do is to move Gaddock Teeg in sideboard. You already have 8 counterspells and Survival => Meddling Mage for combo and problematic cards Game 1. If you meta is full of aggro/burn, put 2-d Rhox War Monk of Kitchen Finks (Monk I think 'cause he pitches to FoW). In my meta 2-d Trygon Predator is the right guy. The new Qasali Pridemage would be great too.

I also think you need more creatures for your survival plan. I'd cut Ponders, but the problem is that you also want blue cards for FoW. The idea was to run 2 Ninja of the Deep Hours, but sadly it means you want Birds of Paradise instead of Noble Hierarch (well, I'll try this way, but I'm not sure it'll be good)

My crazy tech here is Oriss, Samite Guardian or Linessa, Zephyr Mage (better 'cause she's blue and has better first ability) to kick opponent off balance with Genesis-recovering Grandeur.

Honestly I don't like Daze here 'cause survival is very mana-intensive. The option is to run Stifles (as good as Daze against ANT), 1-2 Dreadnoughts and Trinket Mage+small toolbox. Or just run more creatures (Spellstuller Sprite + more faeries?).

I never run less than 21 land in decks with Survival that can't cheat a lot of mana (like lists with Vial or Survival Elves). 1 Dryad Arbor must be somewhere here, but with FoW restrictions it's hard to find what to cut.

That's all for now. I hope my ideas will help!

Waikiki
04-21-2009, 03:38 AM
Hi Jak,

I've been playing alot with UGW survival allready and can tell you it's really strong! Mt first tournament with the deck brought me to a 9th place (52 players)

My matchups:

dredge 0-2 (didn't anticipate dredge decks only 2 in the field so had no sb for it)
ugb dreadstill 2-0
43 land 1-1 maze of ith etc takes alot of time :(
nassif list 2-0
Nassif list 2-0
elves survival 2-0


Overal the update list looks like:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [B] Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [US] Forest (4)
1 [A] Tundra
1 [OD] Island (2)

// Creatures
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [JU] Genesis
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
1 [OD] Mystic Enforcer
3 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant

// Spells
3 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [BOK] Kami of False Hope
SB: 3 [VI] Natural Order
SB: 1 [CFX] Progenitus

The sb switch to natural order progenitus is reallly something people don't expect.

The faerie package is really really really awesome! sprites are tutoracle stp protection and later in the game even counterspells.

My favorite play is T1 hierarch T2,5 flash clique for removal and hit for 4 in your own turn.

Mystic enforcer was one of my testslots but he has won me so many games that im not going to cut it.

The open slots are:

rhox war monk
venser
eternal witness. yes she hasn't been of any use so far. Im just scared of cutting and untill the next set I do not have anything to replace it with.

SB:

The transformational sb progenitus NO.
Kami of the false hope. Good against elves survival and ichorid(even agains progenitus).
Hyrdroblast. Goblins and dragon stompy still need some extra fighting. Could be path to exile, but this can get cast from a basic land.

MM vs combo and aggro loam. Love em.
Krosan grip doesn't need explanation.

Cards im looking forward to:
The new WG exalted disenchant creature !

I hope we could tune this deck a little more cause it's very competetive.

Ohw and I called the deck b0b0'survival due to a inside joke.
But Bant survival will do I guess

THEchubbymuffin
04-21-2009, 03:57 AM
Waikiki, wouldn't spore frog be better than kami?

Waikiki
04-21-2009, 04:01 AM
I couldn't find one in my craploads of cards :(

Black Mass
04-21-2009, 05:31 AM
I built a similar list a while ago with some succes

Manabase 20
5 forest
4 windswepth heath
4 wooded foothills
4 tropical island
3 savannah

creatures 22
4 noble hierarch
4 tarmogoyf
4 spellstutter sprite
2 kitchen finks
1 gilded drake
1 tradewind rider
1 Rafiq of the many
1 genesis
1 squee, goblin nabob
1 ethersworn canonist
1 eternal witness
1 harmonic sliver

instants 12
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
4 swords to plowshares
2 Bant Charm

enchantments 4
4 survival of the fittest


Side

4x Krosan grip
3x Blue elemental blast
2x Gaddock Teeg
1x Ethersworn Cannonist
3x Relic of Progenitus
2x Sower of Temptation


I buit this deck when Rafiq was first released. I thought he could be breakable. With the printing of Hoble Hierarch, the deck just got better, Hierarch became my n°1 survival target. With a goyf in play an 2 hierarchs, one could wreak havoc.
Bant charm was an experiment and in my limited testing it came out quite good.
Rafiq is here pure for kill reasons, having a spellstutter sprite an a rafiq in play: that's 4 damage by a flying 1/1, rafiq himself beats for 8, not to speak about goyfs.

I based my build on other ATS builds, but the tradewind rider and the gilded drake will probably be cut for witness or ponder (in need of blue cards).

Nihil Credo
04-21-2009, 08:42 AM
This is what I've been playing for a while. I, too, am of the opinion that Daze is pretty bad in the deck and that Sprite is really solid. Moreover, I think it is possible to fit Counterbalance in the deck with good effects - for example, you have much less need of lifegainers or combo hate.

4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Dust Bowl

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Knight of the Reliquary -> here working as just a Doran stand-in, might turn into Wisescale Sage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant -> may turn into Qasali Pridemage
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
3 Survival of the Fittest
2 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Condemn
2 Krosan Grip
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Aura Fracture
1 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Genesis
1 Eternal Witness

Waikiki
04-21-2009, 01:06 PM
imo CB doesn't really fit into the deck. Survival needs alot of mana and so does CB. Im not sold on it.

At least not with the playstyle I use.

Jak
04-21-2009, 04:30 PM
imo CB doesn't really fit into the deck. Survival needs alot of mana and so does CB. Im not sold on it.

At least not with the playstyle I use.

I sort of agree. Counterbalance is good in any deck with a curve for it, but here it seems to take away from what the goal is. IMO the goal is to play aggro with creatures using a ridiculous CA engine. It also controls the board using free counters and good answer creatures.

However, that is what I am trying to mold the deck into and using CB is another good route to go.

Currently, I am trying to find some creature removal that is tutor-able. The only things worth considering are Masticore and Intrepid Hero... There isn't anything like Shriekmaw. However, we still have Sower or Gilded Drake.

quicksilver
04-21-2009, 04:39 PM
Well since everyone is psoting their pet UGW survival deck here is mine. It tok top 8 at a 39 person tournament. Basically it cuts out as many of the crappy toolbox creatures as it can and mostly uses survival for a card advantage engine to just spit out goyfs every turn.

4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Windswept heath
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
4 Daze
3 Survival of the Fittest
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trigon Predator
2 Eternal Witness
1 Squee Goblin Nabob
2 Mystic Enforcer
4 Force of will

SB:
4 blue elemental blast
4 Tormod's crypt
4 Krosan grip
1 Survival of the fittest
1 Genesis
1 Fairie macabre

Black Mass
04-22-2009, 07:24 AM
15 creatures, are you sure that's enough to make the engine running? I have some trouble playing 18 creatures + you don't have genesis in the main. So my feeling is that the first creature you pitch to your survival to get squee is a lost critter.

I'd also strongly suggest to play spellstutter sprite over daze. In 90% of the cases the sprite will be a hardcounter + it's survivalable (is that a word?), witch comes in handy too when you don't have another blue card in your hand to pitch for force of will.

THEchubbymuffin
04-23-2009, 08:31 PM
I have been testing this deck and I can definately see potential in it. Even if it is not the best build I would play it because it is fun. This list is not optimized at all I will be testing it though to see what works.

// Lands
4 Tropical Island
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
3 Forest
1 Tundra
1 Island

// Creatures
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Eternal Witness
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Trygon Predator
1 Mystic Enforcer
4 Spellstutter Sprite
1 Meddling Mage
1 Wonder
1 Troll Ascetic

// Spells
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
2 Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
4 Krosan Grip
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Meddling Mage
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Spore Frog
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Genesis

Some notes that I am testing.

Maindeck
Land count - I felt that I often was stuck with too few of mana and was too dependent on NH's so I am trying 21. Will probably cut to 20.

Umezawa's Jitte - I don't think this will be necessary as we use repeated Goyfs to stop aggro, and Sprites to stop burn. But I just want to test it.

Wonder - Even though most of our creatures are flying already. I think that this one card should win a couple games where my opponent thinks they can chump my goyfs.

Troll Ascetic - Nice trick with Jitte, just testing, and will cut if Jitte fails.

Sideboard

Mostly highlander to see what I side in. Explaining some strange picks.

Genesis - Most match ups squee is all we need.
Spore Frog - Saw the white one in Waikiki's SB. 1 mana combo stopper. Nice with Genesis.

Harmonic Sliver - Alara Reborn is not legal yet I think. Will be Qasali.

Aven Mindcensor - This one is what I want to test most. Fetches, Tutors, CIP abilities are all affected by this. Also I lost a game to a janky Prog deck earlier. I hold grudges sometimes.

Testing will be done on MWS so results should be inaccurate, but who expects anything more?

If anybody thinks some of these ideas are good let me know, because I am not good at deckbuilding, and want to see where I suck.

GGoober
04-25-2009, 04:29 AM
This is my list:
Dark Bant Survival

Lands: 19
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island
2 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta

Cantrips: 10
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

Removal/Counter: 11
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

"Vanilla Creatures": 13
4 Noble Hierach
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
2 Vendillion Clique

Engine+Package: 7
3 Survival of the Fittest
1 Shriekmaw
1 Trygon Predator
1 Genesis
1 Squee Goblin Nabob


SB: (needs tweaking)
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Meddling Mage
2 Trygon Predator
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Quasali Pridemage
3 Engineered Plague
3 Duress
3 Krosan Grip


Black gives access to Bob + Genesis/Shriekmaw recursion, and access to Plague in the board against tribal decks (Merfolks, Elves, Goblins). Duress gives a good MU against combo and opposing CB.

(EDIT: I'm shaky on the Manabase against moon effects, so I upped it to 19 lands, running 3 bobs instead of 4, akin to old-school Not-Quite-Survival builds. I'm not too sold on Sprite although I got owned by her when playing against Bant Survival. She seems good if you can chain up to 2 (with or without help from Survival). I would rather play Daze/Spell Snare since you want to avoid losing to CB lock early, and Daze gives you an edge against many decks.)


If I ran UGW Bant instead of 4c Dark Bant, I might go with:


17 Lands
2 Academy Ruins

4 Noble Hierach
4 Goyfs
2 Trinket Mage
2 Vendillion Clique

3 Survival of the Fittest
1 Genesis
1 Eternal Witness
1 Squee

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divning Top

Some sort of Brassman NLU Survival mix. EE with Witness + Genesis + Ruins is pretty good lock even if we destroyed our own Survival. I personally dislike CB-Top in Survival Bant, but I don't know what's the best shell.

Natural Order Bant Survival is interesting due to acceleration with Hierach and synergy with Survival + Progenitus, although we have trouble hitting 4 mana and avoiding daze effects. I might play with 2 Natural Order + 1 Dryad Arbor + 1 Progenitus, but I'm sure that list will involve 20 lands and some form of control with Daze/Spell Snare/CB etc.

Clique + Hierach is really a house: T1 Hierach, T2 clique disrupt, T3 swing for 4 + backed by countermagic.

THEchubbymuffin
04-25-2009, 04:47 AM
@ crz
Have you tried spellstutter sprite? From what I have experienced, an active survival and sprites can be gg for an opponent. They are pretty good on their own aswell. Countering a 1cc card is good, but the fact that it flies not that bad with heirarchs.

Point of my post. Sprites are the shizz.

Jak
04-25-2009, 05:30 AM
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
2 Tundra
2 Forest
2 Island

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Trygon Predator
1 Eternal Witness
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Big Beater Slot (Quagnoth, Gigapede, Morphling)
1 Genesis
1 Squee
1 Wonder

SB
4 Krosan Grip
2 Meddling Mage
3 Back to Basics
4 Hydroblast
2 Rhox War Monk

This is what I have been working with. I'm trying to cut it down but I have been really liking everything. SB is geared towards control, aggro-control, and aggro. I probably should add stuff for Ichorid and TES. Maybe Chants and Crypts, but I never see those on MWS. I also may want to add more Sowers since they are so ridiculously good with most UG decks looking like they are adding 4 Coatls.

Waikiki
04-25-2009, 05:49 AM
Nice to see you're liking the faery pack I suggested.
I think wonder isn't needed since most creatures you play allready got flying.

Myself am even trying to go up to 3 cliques. they are really good.

Jak
04-25-2009, 02:50 PM
Nice to see you're liking the faery pack I suggested.
I think wonder isn't needed since most creatures you play allready got flying.

Myself am even trying to go up to 3 cliques. they are really good.

Yeah, I love the StP protection. It also just seemed better than Daze in many aspects.

Wonder is really there to make Goyfs fly. Gets over Goblins, other Goyfs, Coatls, etc. I guess it is the weakest slot. I'll try cutting it.

I really want to incorporate a few things MD.

-Additional land
-Wickerbough Elder
-Meddling Mage
-Gaddock Teeg

Finding room is the hard part. I am pretty sure I want to add the additional land so I can get the mana I need to activate Survival and play a Sower if I have to.

I'm going to try...

-1 Wonder
-2 Ponder (Unsure...)

+1 Breeding Pool
+1 Wickerbough Elder
+1 Vendilion Clique

It ends up still being at 62 which I want to at least get down to 61.

Does anyone have any ideas for the big beater slot? Something that can come down and being larger than Goyf, Coatl, and Tombstalker, while hopefully having evasion or be hard to remove. Gigapede was my first choice since it is sooo hard to remove but I hate that it doesn't have evasion or a better toughness. Any ideas?

Waikiki
04-26-2009, 08:55 AM
I use mystic enforcer as the big beater slot. I would rather run the pridemage because his exalted works great with the faeries. Yes its weaker vs CB but it's way faster. I do not like to have that many 4cc slots in the deck I run 19 lands +4 hierarch.

Jak
04-26-2009, 03:50 PM
I use mystic enforcer as the big beater slot. I would rather run the pridemage because his exalted works great with the faeries. Yes its weaker vs CB but it's way faster. I do not like to have that many 4cc slots in the deck I run 19 lands +4 hierarch.

This is true. I do like the Pridemage dude so running a few will go well with the quasi Exalted theme. Mystic Enforcer is also a favorite so that will at least be tried but I want to see how this (list at bottom) works.

Here is what I have going on to keep it most up to date.

4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
2 Tundra
2 Forest
2 Island

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Quasali Pridemage
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Trygon Predator
1 Eternal Witness
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Genesis
1 Squee

SB
3 Krosan Grip
3 Meddling Mage
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Back to Basics
3 Hydroblast
2 Rhox War Monk

It Quasali ends up being better as a one of, then I would replace the two with an Enforcer. I also want to keep trying Wonder so that will be thrown into testing too. There is nothing like Flying Goyfs that get pumped from Exalted or Flying, Lifelinked, and Pumped War Monks.

Jak
04-28-2009, 12:11 AM
I finally had time to test this some more. Not a ton, just a bit more since I downloaded ARB. I do like the Pridemages since Exalted kicks ass but I realized that 3 was too many. Unless I need to destroy something, I won't tutor for them and they usually get pitched to Survival if I one in hand. They are still effective and I enjoyed it as a two of. Updated list...

// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [A] Tropical Island
2 [R] Savannah
2 [5E] Island (3)
2 [9E] Forest (3)
2 [R] Tundra
1 [DIS] Breeding Pool

// Creatures
4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [JU] Genesis
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [OD] Mystic Enforcer
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [IA] Hydroblast

21 lands felt great. The deck has a low curve, but it is still very mana hungry and I never disliked drawing lands. I cut it down to 2 Cliques since I needed the room for an Enforcer. I'm unsure of the move since I have barely had time to test. I may cut a Pridemage to get the other back in since it is better if you draw it. Enforcer was good. I needed something that I could tutor up and be big and he was it.

I really only played against aggro. Sprites helped a bit by countering a a couple burn spells. Hierarch kicked ass. I love the card. I won soooo many Goyf wars and it gave me the mana I needed several times. Just awesome. The SB rocked and the games were a breeze. Tutoring up War Monks was broken. Sowers were okay but in a MU like Zoo they just get burned out so I boarded those out a lot versus aggro.

Basically, I am really happy with the list. It ran smooth. When I got Survival I won and when I didn't the deck still did well since I still run awesome cards.

I'm going to keep playing with this but the only change I would make is -1 Pridemage, +1 Clique. So far I have liked how it is.

TheLion
04-28-2009, 04:53 AM
I like your list very much. It is very similiar to how I would play Full English Breakst nowadays. A few questions:

Did you test ~2 Wall of Roots and/or 1-2 Quirion Ranger instead of two lands and maybe 1-2 other slots? Wall is great with Survival and Ranger protects from Wasteland and makes mana with Hierarch.

Didn't you miss BoP? I found that there are situations, where Exalted is so useless. And blocking a Tombstalker all day long with Genesis is more important (though I played a slightly other deck...)

Why do you play so many Artifact/Enchantment hate? You have 8 counters, 1 Predatory, 2 Pridemage, 2 Clique, to deal with them. Isn't 1 Pridemage enough?

Waikiki
04-28-2009, 07:23 AM
I'd keep with 1 pride aswell. Same for sower. Do you really need two? I myself went up to 3 cliques aswell. The card is just awesome. Did you miss daze at all? I was thinking about cutting it aswell.

Also

The new mythic angel? Does it have a spot in here? 3 mana 3/3 flier that pumps and pitches. Sounds nice but not broken.

<edit> how cool is cold-eyed selkie with exalted?

Also jak, your list only contains 18 blue cards. I find that a bit low myself. Im currently thinking about changing the enforcer to the angel just because it pitches.

Henrik
04-28-2009, 08:17 AM
I have been fiddling with lists like these as well, and I right now I am testing a list very similar to Jak's list above. The big difference is that I consider pridemage to be a staple for the deck, together with noble hierarch they actually make spelltutter sprite a threat and a clique to beat as hard as a tombstalker. The fact that it is an awesome pre-answer to a lot of annoying permanents makes me think that I don't want to be dependent on survival to play them, and it is always a good 2-drop that is pretty aggro in itself.

All this have led to the conclusion to play 4 of them. They are just that good. Now, finding room for them is the hard part. To start of with, I don't play any sowers, since I find them weak without counterbalance. How have you found sower to be? I haven't even tested them unfortunately, so I might be wrong. Otherwise, my list is the same as Jak's (above), so that means I only play 3 pridemage for now. If you would fit in one more, is there one card in the deck you have felt being to weak to justify?


Edit: With the list I am playing (I still won't bother to post it, it is quite similar to already posted lists) I have serious problems playing Force of will with consistency, and I know it has been up for discussion already. How can we fit more blue creatures into the deck? Cards that come to mind include Pestermite, Gilded drake and Man-o'-war/Venser, that I also know has been suggested previously. Still, I find it hard to exceed 16-20 blue cards.

Jak
04-28-2009, 11:13 AM
@Jenara. I thought a lot about it. The only thing I don't like is how it makes the white splash more prominent. I also like how Enforcer costs four since it easily gets around CB.

@Wall of Roots/Quirion Ranger. I like Wall but it is such a weak draw. I really don't need the mana all that much. I think the disadvantage of drawing it late outweighs the advantage of accelling you into a faster Survival and blocking. It also cuts something from the deck. Quirion Ranger is good. I would like it more with Anger and Rofellos in the deck since it then does so much more. It provides a little combat tricks as well as Waste-proofing your lands. I just don't think it's enough.

@Birds of Paradise. Exalted was amazing. It just made all the creatures Threats. Destroy Goyf and I still am attacking for 3 with an Eternal Witness. The flying thing is really covered since I have Sprites, Predator, Clique, and Sower (although I won't block too much with this).

@Artifact/enchantment hate. I just like having it. If Pridemage wasn't around, I wouldn't run so much but the fact that it provides a reasonable beater as well doesn't make it dead when you draw it and your opponent has nothing on the board. I have cut it down but it may not stay down.

@Daze. I miss it a little. Free counters are good in a deck that likes to tap out. The problem with it was how much it set me back. After cutting it, I realized that I really didn't need it. Unless combo is a large part of your meta, it isn't necessary, imo, since it sets you back too much in other MUs.

@Cold-Eyed Selkie. Wow I forgot about the card and it looks pretty amazing with Exalted. Have you tried it? I don't know how many I would run but it seems really strong and gives you the needed CA when blue decks keep Survival off the table. Definitely interesting. Will try.

If you want more blue cards like I do, I would just try to run 20. I plan to do this:

-1 Pridemage
+1 Vendilion Clique

If that is too few, then...

-1 Enforcer
+1 Jenara

I also am cutting a Sower for something. Either a War Monk, Wonder, or Gilded Drake. Unsure.

Waikiki
04-28-2009, 11:17 AM
I have tried in a BANT aggro deck without survival but the selkie only shined in decks with islands. So I would suggest just running one. But then again if you got survival your allready winning.

Im not sold on it. And yes im not really missing daze at all! I do miss the pridemage since I don't got it on mws yet.

TheLion
04-28-2009, 11:29 AM
What about StifleNought in this deck? I play it in my FEB as alternative win condition. Essentially I play it in the place of Spellstutter and Cliques.
What might be also nice then: Rafiq of the Many + Volrath's Shapeshifter + Dreadnought: Attack with an 13+/13+ doublestriking Trampler :-)

Waikiki
04-28-2009, 12:18 PM
Take it to another thread :)

Jak
04-29-2009, 02:49 AM
So in testing I have been finding myself to dislike Trygon predator a lot. It is just too slow. Qasali is much more of a surprise and is way faster. I might try out more Qasalis to see how they do.

So I will tentatively do this:

-1 Trygon

+1 Pridemage

This leaves me at 18 blue cards. I haven't had any troubles with the blue count so far, but that may change.

I played a bit more, beating UWb Landstill in one game due to amazing CA via Standstill. Go go FLASH...ing in Faeries. I then went 1-2 to Mono Red Painter. I felt like my board was good for the MU but I just got mana screwed and then 2 Magus ended up leaving me color screwed. I'll try to test more tomorrow or something. Hopefully others are picking up the deck since it is a blast.

Master Shake
04-29-2009, 04:15 AM
I know this isn't a traditional Survival List, but I can't imagine playing Survival of the Fittest without fitting Rofellos into the deck somewhere.

You many also want to give some consideration to Loxodon Hirearch//Ravenous Baloth. I know these suggestions screw with the splash but one of them is a mana flare that walks (and is tutorable) and the other will help with what promises to be a problem.

I like the Pridemage a lot more in this build than the Predator as he doesn't need to connect to be effective.

Waikiki
04-29-2009, 05:15 AM
The thing is we do not need that much GGGGGGG We do not run any outlet anyways.

I still think about going down to 3 survivals and add some extra cantrips.

Black Mass
04-29-2009, 07:43 AM
I know this isn't a traditional Survival List, but I can't imagine playing Survival of the Fittest without fitting Rofellos into the deck somewhere.

In traditional survival you usualy play anger + taiga to give him haste, this makes him a lot better. Also, you need a mana sink for him I feel, like Masticore or something, I like him a lot too, but not in this deck.

Why play enforcer over Rafiq? Rafiq beats harder, makes other critters beat extremely hard, can pitch to force and is at 4. This guy makes every creature in your deck a threat to reckon with. I love him.

Waikiki
04-29-2009, 07:53 AM
cause he likes to eat alot of removal. also he doesn't do much by himself he needs an evasive creature to be really good. Enforcer just kicks harder.

eq.firemind
04-29-2009, 08:46 AM
Swords to Plowshares are still people's champion, so pro black is not so great.
4 Noble Hierarch + 1-3 Qasali Pridemage are enough to turn Rafiq into the real beast.
4 Spellstutter Sprite + 2-3 Clique + 0-1 Sower + Wonder are enough evasion IMHO.
And my main argument: After landing Enforcer I need to wait a turn to attack. After landing Rafiq I can bash 4 with Spellstutter/Hierarch or 8 with my Clique/Warmonk/Pridemage. Enforcer beats for 6 every NEXT turn. Plain Rafiq beats for 8 AND can give you +3-5 boost NOW. Exalted Rafiq beats like hell and we have Survival to find Hierarch/Pridemage.
So Rafiq is my choice here. Oh, and GY hate does nothing to him and he pitches to FoW!\

Maybe try new Flying Flash Deathtouch 1/1 snake as pseudoremoval? :1::g::u: is expensive, but IMHO needs a try (bonus:pitches to FoW).

Waikiki
04-29-2009, 09:13 AM
and rafiq does nothing as a blocker. Enforcer stops tombstalk whole day long.

stp is the least scary removal for this deck thnx to sprite. snuff out is a problem. (alot of rock and eva green players in my meta)

Black Mass
04-29-2009, 11:31 AM
Who cares about tombstalker when you can race like hell. You can play enough chumper if you need to, eventually everything can be stopped. We have absolutely no removal that has the clause of "nonblack" on it like most black removal tends to.
Next to 4 stp's we run 4 counters that manage it an most of you run 3 Cliques that can proactivly remove a tombstalker.

If that is not enough according to you, we can also play bant charm, wich I'm starting to like a lot.

Jak
04-29-2009, 10:42 PM
I know this isn't a traditional Survival List, but I can't imagine playing Survival of the Fittest without fitting Rofellos into the deck somewhere.

You many also want to give some consideration to Loxodon Hirearch//Ravenous Baloth. I know these suggestions screw with the splash but one of them is a mana flare that walks (and is tutorable) and the other will help with what promises to be a problem.

I like the Pridemage a lot more in this build than the Predator as he doesn't need to connect to be effective.

Well Rofellos really needs Anger like it was already said. It does give you a good boost but when it doesn't have haste, it ends up slowing you down just as much as it speeds you up. I felt like leaning toward the less explosive side and making the deck stronger without Survival was the better option. I have thought a lot about a splash of red but I really don't think it needs to be done.

I think Baloth would be a nice addtion since it is StP proof and doesn't have white but my aggro MU is already pretty good and War Monks are usually just better at gaining life.

@ Rafiq. His lack of evasion makes him a little less appealing. I think I might throw one in since it lets me win out of no where. I still like Enforcer because it does fly, however, adding Wonder might make Rafiq a ton better. Ditch Wonder for Rafiq, and deal 8 with a Clique.

Jak
04-29-2009, 11:13 PM
OMG Rafiq is fun. I loaded up MWS to test him and the first game he allowed me to win out of no where. I was at 2 and he was at 12. I had Squee into Sprite to counter some key spells that would have won him the game. I finally was able to ge the mana to Squee in to Wonder and then Wonder into Rafiq to win with a Goyf. FUN! However, I had a solid board with Survival, Goyf, War Monk, and 2 Faeries. I would have won anyway. The thing I did like was that it was like pseudo haste. It felt like playing with RGBSA and winning out of no where.

Edit-

The MU felt really good. I did fall behind on play mistakes. Focusing on tutoring for Sprites to counter everything when I should have just waited. He almost killed me in response but I had the Swords for a Witness. I ended up being able to surprise block a few times with flash creatures (so amazing) to keep myself in the game. I felt in control the whole time because I was able to get a counter or a Pridemage to destroy Vortex or just combo out with Rafiq FTW. I really like Wonder and plan on keeping it in because it gives my best beaters evasion (War Monk and Goyf). I'm really undecided between Enforcer or Rafiq and plan to keep testing but for the discussion, the pros and cons.

Enforcer
+Pro Black
+Flies
+Big Body
+4cc
-Has white in the cost
-GY dependent

Rafiq
+Makes other creatures stronger
+Wins games out of nowhere
+Blue for Force
-Small body (can't block Goyf or Tombstalker)
-White in cost
-No evasion

Please add to the list. Maybe fitting both in would work :).

Edit- Rafiq is really good. I had to play against a deck that only gained life to fuel Well of Lost Dreams. Not that difficult, but from the games I noticed how much better Rafiq was post Wrath (I was Wrathed 3 times in like 15 turns). Two turns after the Wrath hits I was able to still swing in for at least 12 (eot tutor up Goyf, play Goyf, and then get Rafiq back via Genesis and play). I also noticed that he is still a sizeable threat. a 4/4 with double strike is pretty good. I think his offensive abilities outweigh wis crappy defense.

Waikiki
04-30-2009, 06:20 AM
I will give him a spin since I want more blue slots. But I still think he wins the game harder when allready have a good board position.

Enforcer is awesome when you got an empty board and looking to an opposing threat. Rafiq doesn't look good when your allready losing.

<edit>
We should call the deck Exalted Survival since the subtheme of exalted.

Waikiki
04-30-2009, 01:37 PM
Sorry for double post. I've used rafiq and he does give a super punch in the face when landed. I like he's pitchable

My newest list includes 4 ponder and only 19 lands.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [A] Tropical Island
3 [B] Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [US] Forest (4)
1 [A] Tundra
1 [US] Plains (1)
1 [US] Island (1)

// Creatures
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [JU] Genesis
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
3 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
1 [ARB] Jenara, Asura of War
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
4 [CNF] Noble Hierarch

// Spells
3 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [BOK] Kami of False Hope
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [B] Blue Elemental Blast

Also the blue count is way better now :)

eq.firemind
04-30-2009, 02:57 PM
Hey, guys, how do you feel about Jenara, Asura of War?
I tested her a little and for now I throw her out replacing with Mistblade Shinobi (test slot, if Ninja fails, would be 4 Spellstutter, 20 land or 2 War Monk).
She wants too much mana. I better search for Ragiq if I want to do some damage, for Qasali if I need utility or save mana for cantrips/Spellstutters if I feel the situation is ok.

How many games you've won with her?
How happy are you topdecking/cantripping her?
How often do you search her with Survival?
Anything else about her?

TheLion
04-30-2009, 04:30 PM
My newest list includes 4 ponder and only 19 lands.


Let me know, if this is better than maybe 0 Ponder and 21 lands. (or whatever you played before).

Your list looks great, though I don't know if Predator AND Pridemage are necessary.

Jak
04-30-2009, 07:54 PM
// Lands
4 [A] Tropical Island
3 [B] Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [US] Forest (4)
1 [A] Tundra
1 [US] Plains (1)
1 [US] Island (1)

// Creatures
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [JU] Genesis
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
3 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
1 [ARB] Jenara, Asura of War
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
4 [CNF] Noble Hierarch

// Spells
3 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [BOK] Kami of False Hope
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [B] Blue Elemental Blast

Also the blue count is way better now :)

Do you like Survival at three? Drawing multiples sucks but then that also means you have one in play so you should be in a good position. I feel like the deck just gets stronger with it in play that maximizing the chances to see it by turn 2 is better.

I also want to hear how Ponders have been working out. The deck is mana hungry and having to pay one mana on turn three to find the third land seems pretty meh.

I thought you liked the faeries! Vendilion has been better than I expected and Sprite has been nice to tutor up to counter Tops, Swords, Bolts, Stifles, Dreadnoughts, etc and even sometimes getting Bob, CB, Goyf, etc. Why did you cut those numbers down?

I still need to try Jenara. How has it been with 19 lands?

I also am glad you liked Rafiq as well. I am glad I ended up listening to Black Mass.

Oh and one last thing, I feel Qasali is much stronger than Predator. I guess it does help the blue count, but being able to hit artifacts and enchantments as soon as the hit play is just better. It also boosts attacks. I want to fit in more.

Waikiki
05-01-2009, 06:29 AM
The ponder's are good at finding survival/stp and land yes. They also boost the goyf strenght cause we lack sorcery.

I never had more then 3 sprites. I really don't like the 4th. But maybe i'll add it later on.

I found survivals clogging up my hand too often and I do not really need one that soon. and ponders help me dig when really needed. Im sure still needing to test more and will do upcomming sunday.

I just try not to be too dependant on survival. Just beating and combat tricks should do fine aswell.

@Jenerara. She kicked someone's ass but it could also have been a different creature. Maybe a 3rd clique just is better. But I was thinking about the legandary and well Jenara beats aswell.

Black Mass
05-01-2009, 06:48 AM
yes, but both the manacost as the ability of jenara require white and we're in a sort of white-light build right now, i'd prefer Cliques, but I'll have to test them.

Waikiki
05-01-2009, 07:00 AM
but he doesn't die to mogg fanatic. But well I also think that clique is better since it flashes and makes removal go away.

<edit> After some more plays with my teammate the choice was easily made - janara +1 survival

Jak
05-03-2009, 04:14 AM
Has anyone tried Intrepid Hero? I wanted to a while ago but never got the chance. It seems amazing if you ever got to use his ability. Tombstalker, Goyf, Dreadnought, Terravore, Crusher, Coatl, etc. It handles the big creatures. I'll try one out to see how it is. Has anyone tried it?

Black Mass
05-03-2009, 09:11 AM
Seems ok, but without haste I guess he'll be too slow. Had is been a "come into play" ability, I'd say go. But now he seems like a slow BGH.

Waikiki
05-03-2009, 03:42 PM
So far I've only been impressed with the ponders.

For the creature destruction I would suggest the flying flash deathtouch coatl from the new set. But I've not been needing it beside 4 stp 8 cantrips and sower.

THEchubbymuffin
05-03-2009, 04:02 PM
Is it getting too greedy to add a mountain and anger to this deck? I have been wondering this for a while. With fetches it should not be too problematic, and it adds the SUPRISE! Magus of the moon to the sideboard. The only problem is that both Heath and Strand can't get the same land...

Waikiki
05-03-2009, 04:12 PM
It sounds too greedy to me, but would be awesome.

Jak
05-03-2009, 04:13 PM
Is it getting too greedy to add a mountain and anger to this deck? I have been wondering this for a while. With fetches it should not be too problematic, and it adds the SUPRISE! Magus of the moon to the sideboard. The only problem is that both Heath and Strand can't get the same land...

I have been wanting to just for the fact that it gives Survival a little more power and adding an FtK would be sweet. I tried it but I hated how it made the manabase. I needed to fetch a Taiga instead of getting blue or white. I have found that Rafiq makes the deck just as explosive. Magus is good too, but there is also B2B in my SB.

I am in love with Rafiq. It just ends games. I think it would be fine as another War Monk but that wouldn't be as fun. I ended up killing someone from nine by tutoring him up eot, playing a Pridemage and him the next turn to win with a 10/4 Spellstutter Sprite.

I also want to try the Snake (forgot about it!). I just need one slot!

Waikiki
05-03-2009, 04:14 PM
If you look at my last build you could do - predator + coatl flash flying thingy.

Jak
05-03-2009, 04:19 PM
If you look at my last build you could do - predator + coatl flash flying thingy.

I already cut Predator for another Pridemage and I really don't want to drop below 2. I could cut Wonder but it just wins games. Goyf is still the best thing to tutor up and giving it evasion to swing for the win makes the deck ridiculous. I'll try to squeeze it in.

hi-val
05-03-2009, 11:34 PM
Is it getting too greedy to add a mountain and anger to this deck? I have been wondering this for a while. With fetches it should not be too problematic, and it adds the SUPRISE! Magus of the moon to the sideboard. The only problem is that both Heath and Strand can't get the same land...

If you add Anger, you can support Ovinomancer, which becomes an insanely good removal spell, over and over again. Returning Ovinomancer is part of the activation and not the resolution, so unless the opponent has a counter for it, they'll never get it off the board. I've run it in Survival before to good results.

Waikiki
05-04-2009, 05:20 AM
I already cut Predator for another Pridemage and I really don't want to drop below 2. I could cut Wonder but it just wins games. Goyf is still the best thing to tutor up and giving it evasion to swing for the win makes the deck ridiculous. I'll try to squeeze it in.

Would the games have also been won by just adding more goyfs to the board or a clique kicking with rafiq? Seems to me when survival drops and sticks the win is almost there anyway.

Black Mass
05-04-2009, 07:11 AM
Has anyone tried Bant charm? It does its job really well and it's very versatile. I played it as a 2-of and seemed ok in my limited testing.

It can help you vs combo, removes creatures and destroy artifacts.

That snake is tutorable though...

phoenix33
05-04-2009, 09:15 AM
If you add Anger, you can support Ovinomancer, which becomes an insanely good removal spell, over and over again. Returning Ovinomancer is part of the activation and not the resolution, so unless the opponent has a counter for it, they'll never get it off the board. I've run it in Survival before to good results.

:eyebrow:

Returning 3 lands in a deck as mana intensive as this one is ridiculous. Having to return another 3 for the second use is terrible.

Genesis and Thornweald Archer or Genesis and Winged Coatl seems superior in pretty much every way.

This is where I'm at currently:

// Lands
4 [A] Tropical Island
2 [U] Tundra
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [US] Forest (3)
1 [ON] Island (2)
3 [U] Savannah

// Creatures
1 [JU] Wonder
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
1 [ON] Gigapede
1 [10E] Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [ARB] Winged Coatl
1 [JU] Genesis

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [5E] Brainstorm

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
SB: 1 [FD] Eternal Witness
SB: 2 [US] Gilded Drake
SB: 3 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [5E] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [PY] Spore Frog
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

The Coatl is awesome, it's Thornweald without the warning. I've had opponents terrified to attack after they've seen it the first time.

Wonder probably isn't necessary. It's nice for Standoffs, and can usually be fetched when getting Squee and Genesis, but when Survival is out, I suppose I should be winning anyway...

Is Jenara really all that good? It's pretty mana intensive, and I usually would rather spend that mana on something else. I didn't test it very much though, should I give it another look?

TheLion
05-04-2009, 10:51 AM
:eyebrow:

Returning 3 lands in a deck as mana intensive as this one is ridiculous. Having to return another 3 for the second use is terrible.


Read the card again.

...

...

You respond to the CiP trigger, with it's activated ability. Then, at the time, when the CiP trigger resolves, he is already back in your hand, so you don't have to sacrifice three lands.

phoenix33
05-04-2009, 12:38 PM
Alright then, in that case it's merely conditional and tricksy, rather than outright terrible.

Coatl/Archer aren't dead when you can't stick a Survival, and Wonder gets your guys past their guys just as well when you can.

Di
05-04-2009, 05:53 PM
I have been wanting to just for the fact that it gives Survival a little more power and adding an FtK would be sweet. I tried it but I hated how it made the manabase. I needed to fetch a Taiga instead of getting blue or white. I have found that Rafiq makes the deck just as explosive. Magus is good too, but there is also B2B in my SB.

This isn't really true because it can easily be worked around, and actually may strengthen the manabase due to Noble Hierarch being used the turn it comes into play. Generally if you're fetching out a Taiga you're in a position where you either have Survival in play or am about to play it. If that's the case and you'd be cut off from blue or white, grabbing a hasted Hierarch is just as good, and will provide an extra boost the following turn. It allows you to actually chain 2-3 Hierarchs in a single turn and attack with something, and the following turn you could easily get Rafiq and just win the game. I think not running Anger in this deck might be a mistake because of the color requirements of the creatures. Needing to hit UW to play your best creatures can be rough, but being able to use hasted Hierarchs helps out tremendously, because a lot of the pieces of the deck are expensive and this list is mana-hungry. Otherwise it plays like a slower version than every other Survival deck. But also, given those color requirements, I wouldn't pursue other pieces of Anger-based lists, such as Rofellos. Just having haste alone is insane.

Otherwise, these lists are very intruiging; I like them a lot. They're a bit slower than other Survival builds, but have a great game without Survival thanks to consistency with cantrips, and has a decent combo matchup. Between cantrips and a lot of cheap dudes the aggro matchup shouldn't be too bad, and Winged Coatl is a great option for taking down Goyfs and Tombstalkers and such. The only other issue I have is people removing Trygon Predator/Harmonic Sliver from the maindeck completely. I would run it alongside Qasili Pridemage, not cut it. The deck still has issues with Counterbalance, and not having that 3cc option can be a problem.

Waikiki
05-04-2009, 06:15 PM
Exactly why I run both predator and pridemage. Also I think this deck simply should use the little slowwer way without anger. Eot survival into clique take down removal.

Own turn return squee, get rafiq or some other exalted dude or maybe not even needed and hit for 4+. Next turn you can flash something in aswell.

I mostly survival up alot of hierarchs and develop my mana that way.

Di
05-04-2009, 06:39 PM
Exactly why I run both predator and pridemage. Also I think this deck simply should use the little slowwer way without anger. Eot survival into clique take down removal.

Own turn return squee, get rafiq or some other exalted dude or maybe not even needed and hit for 4+. Next turn you can flash something in aswell.

I mostly survival up alot of hierarchs and develop my mana that way.

It doesn't makes sense that you admit to fetching a lot of Hierarchs yet don't want them to have haste. If they go you gain nearly an entire turn because you can not only tutor more of them, but also possibly play other creatures and then still activate Survival or play Brainstorm or something. Given the deck's dependance on other colors I think it's a mistake to not be able to give Hierarch haste. Cutting you off of colors can really screw this deck up, and having immediate access to them is huge.

Jak
05-04-2009, 11:50 PM
It doesn't makes sense that you admit to fetching a lot of Hierarchs yet don't want them to have haste. If they go you gain nearly an entire turn because you can not only tutor more of them, but also possibly play other creatures and then still activate Survival or play Brainstorm or something. Given the deck's dependance on other colors I think it's a mistake to not be able to give Hierarch haste. Cutting you off of colors can really screw this deck up, and having immediate access to them is huge.

You convinced me. What do you recommend cutting for Anger?

-1 Tundra
+1 Taiga

+1 Anger
+1 FtK

Is what I'm thinking.

@Waikiki. The Deathtouch dude would help in some of the same situations as Wonder. I am changing my list up a lot since I want to try adding red.

I had trouble in testing yesterday against Pox and Aggro Loam. The things that killed me were DD, Hymn, Sinkhole, and Small Pox. I think adding Spell Snares to the board may help out and help the combo MU a bit.

THEchubbymuffin
05-04-2009, 11:58 PM
Di posted with compliments... we are doing something right.

I have been thrashing MWS (not good I know) and I added anger, which is a lot of fun. I cut down Spellstutters to 3 as I rarely used the fourth one but they are MVP in locking out an opponent with survival.

Which brings me to the question...

Which do you guys seem to be doing more with the survival?

Fetching faerie's and playing while the control.

Or every turn Goyfs / whatever exalted you can play?

I understand that it varies based on opponent, board position... yada yada yada.

But there must be one that you favor.

Di
05-05-2009, 12:48 AM
You convinced me. What do you recommend cutting for Anger?

-1 Tundra
+1 Taiga

+1 Anger
+1 FtK

Is what I'm thinking.

@Waikiki. The Deathtouch dude would help in some of the same situations as Wonder. I am changing my list up a lot since I want to try adding red.

I had trouble in testing yesterday against Pox and Aggro Loam. The things that killed me were DD, Hymn, Sinkhole, and Small Pox. I think adding Spell Snares to the board may help out and help the combo MU a bit.

If you post an updated list, I can easily find something worth making room for Anger. It's only a single slot, so it really isn't that difficult to squeeze in. Flametongue Kavu is another fine choice, but I'm a bit wary of it as the only source to cast it would be that Taiga. It's difficult in this deck to pull stuff like that off because Noble Hierarch isn't Birds of Paradise. Although it's good removal, I'd lean on something that is a bit easier to cast. Winged Coatl or Sower are both easier to cast than FTK in this deck, so I'd look at them, or even Tradewind Rider, before I looked at FTK.

I also forgot to mention this before, but another big thing about adding Anger with Hierarch is that it really makes Sower and Vendilion Clique easier to cast. The UU costs in them can be a bit bothersome, and hasted Hierarchs speed up the process of getting them into play.

Regarding Pox, that's still far too small of a metagame threat to really devote slots for. Still, Spell Snare is a decent all-around sideboard as it hits so many threats, so that's reasonable. But against Aggro Loam I would assume BEB is in your sideboard, which it should be, to handle stuff like DD, Burning Wish, Crusher, etc. If it's that big of a problem, adding a singleton Quirion Ranger somewhere in the 75 would also go a long way in fighting them.

Jak
05-05-2009, 01:14 AM
Updated list in the opening post.

Regarding Pox. It was more the basic stuff like hymn and sinkhole hurting me. I listed Smallpox because it was crushing me. Not a big concern though.

You are right about FtK. I keep thinking of hierarch as BoP.

Di
05-05-2009, 01:35 AM
Alright, my thoughts on your list:

- Anger can easily replace Wonder. That's a no-brainer to me. That list features 7 creatures that have flying. At that point, running Wonder for the sake of making your Goyfs fly is pointless and irrelevant. Going over opposing Goyfs is unnecessary as you'll almost always have exalted so yours will be bigger anyway.

- The manabase needs serious fixing. Trying to support Back to Basics with a manabase featuring 9 nonbasics and only 4 basics just won't cut it. There are also 1-2 few green sources imo, and that's after I factor in the addition of Taiga. Adding Taiga takes pressure off the blue sources because it helps Hierarchs, so you can swap another blue source for a green one.

- I mentioned this before, but one of the Pridemages should really be a 3cc destroyer. Otherwise you can get caught in Counterbalance lock and have too few outs to get around it.

- Given how scarce removal is in these colors, I'd seriously consider a 2nd Sower of Temptation, if not in the maindeck then at least in the sideboard. It's incredibly good.

- Unless you're playing in a ridiculously Burn-heavy metagame, Rhox War Monk doesn't deserve a maindeck slot. It's very good don't get me wrong, but as a maindeck singleton there are a lot stronger options as a secondary beater. I'd be inclined to look at Mystic Enforcer (there's no way this could replace Rafiq, which is retarded good), Jenara, or another evasive beater, or even a solid utility creature. It's just that life gain is usually so irrelevant that I'd generally rather have something stronger for those kind of color requirements.

Jak
05-05-2009, 03:01 AM
Lands - 21
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
1 Breeding Pool
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Tundra
3 Forest
1 Island

Spells - 16
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

Creatures- 24
Accel
4 Noble Hierarch

Survival Package
1 Genesis
1 Squee
1 Anger

Utility
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Eternal Witness
1 Winged Coatl

Faerie Control
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Vendillion Clique

Beaters
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Rafiq of the Many

SB
4 Hydroblast
4 Rhox War Monk
3 Krosan Grip
1 Gigapede
3 Tormod's Crypt

Trygon has lost me games because it was so slow. I know what you mean though but Qasali has been amazing. I want to add more not cut it down. I'll see what I can do.

So with this list I...

-Fixed up the manabase
-Added Anger
-Added Winged Coatl
-Cut Wonder
-Cut War Monk

With this, I finally got off the losing streak by beating the new Vial Wizards. Hopefully it keeps up.

eq.firemind
05-05-2009, 03:39 AM
Angrer-hasted Trygon Predator is great. Exalted angry Predator - even better. Rafiq-powered angry Predator is silly :tongue:
StaX and Enchantress are in my meta, so I'll keep Predator. Qasali Pridemage + Genesis=7 mana (1 to put Genesis into grave) and 6 mana each turn, Predator demolishes them just for 4 (1 to put Anger in graveyard).

THEchubbymuffin
05-05-2009, 03:59 AM
If we run at least 1 red source, Magus of the moon should be in sideboard me thinks. It could take a Monk spot, why are there 4 anyway?

Waikiki
05-05-2009, 05:05 AM
If you'd look at my more cantrip orientated build. Maybe I could cut the monk md and add an anger and fix the manabase.

@Di Thoughts?

@Jak. Maybe we should write some sort of primer and get this to established.

Black Mass
05-05-2009, 07:21 AM
It doesn't makes sense that you admit to fetching a lot of Hierarchs yet don't want them to have haste. If they go you gain nearly an entire turn because you can not only tutor more of them, but also possibly play other creatures and then still activate Survival or play Brainstorm or something. Given the deck's dependance on other colors I think it's a mistake to not be able to give Hierarch haste. Cutting you off of colors can really screw this deck up, and having immediate access to them is huge.


I don't feel the need for haste in this deck as much as other survival builds. Hierarch having haste is good, but I feel it's unnecessary. With a goyf in play fetching multiple hierarchs is just golden.

I feel that adding anger, means a weakening of the manabase. That's a sacrifice I do not want to make.

Jak
05-05-2009, 11:51 AM
If we run at least 1 red source, Magus of the moon should be in sideboard me thinks. It could take a Monk spot, why are there 4 anyway?

Eh I just threw the playset in there. It definitely does not need to be a 4of. One will become a Magus for testing.

@ Trygon
Trygon does get better with haste so maybe it needs to go back in. I'll work with it.

@ Primer
A primer would be helpful and I am down for helping to write one or I could just write it.

@ THEchubbymuffin

I have been thrashing MWS (not good I know) and I added anger, which is a lot of fun. I cut down Spellstutters to 3 as I rarely used the fourth one but they are MVP in locking out an opponent with survival.

Which brings me to the question...

Which do you guys seem to be doing more with the survival?

Fetching faerie's and playing while the control.

Or every turn Goyfs / whatever exalted you can play?

I understand that it varies based on opponent, board position... yada yada yada.

But there must be one that you favor.

Definitely depends on the situation. Since the faerires have flash, I won't tutor for them until I need them or if I have 4 mana open, I will usually go for Clique end of turn. Sprites are only gotten when I need to hit something.

I haven't been able to test too much with Anger in the deck, but most of the time I will just go for Goyf.

I have to go but I'll try to finish later.

Di
05-05-2009, 03:06 PM
Why are you guys so bent on Magus of the Moon? The card is terrible in this deck, not to mention manabases can barely support it. It's more of a cute trick that backfires 90% of the time. I ended up cutting it from my 4c lists a while back because it was hurting me more than it hurt my opponent. Cutting you off from green sources, not to mention other colors given how dependant you are on them, helps nothing. Aside from a matchup like 43 Land, it is completely useless. You run the a weaker manabase than almost every deck you'd bring it in against, and most of those you'd board it in for have answers to handle it. It's really a waste of a slot.


I don't feel the need for haste in this deck as much as other survival builds. Hierarch having haste is good, but I feel it's unnecessary. With a goyf in play fetching multiple hierarchs is just golden.

I feel that adding anger, means a weakening of the manabase. That's a sacrifice I do not want to make.

I already explained how adding Anger actually strengthens it. You're swapping only one land, so it has a very minimal effect, but with Survival you gain full benefit out of your Hierarchs to have access to colors immediately, not a turn later. In this format it's crucial you hit things asap if you want to have a chance at winning. Getting haste is huge in helping you against faster decks, which is virtually every other aggro deck, and the mirror, so I fail to see any good reason not to run it.

You also just proved my point with fetching multiple Hierarchs. It's a whole lot easier to do when you have haste as they replace themselves, especially if you're low on lands.


If you'd look at my more cantrip orientated build. Maybe I could cut the monk md and add an anger and fix the manabase.

@Di Thoughts?

My own personal list follows yours a little closely, as I run a higher cantrip count as well. Only thing is I still wouldn't go under 20 lands under any condition. You want to be able to hit consistent land drops until turn 3-4, and with Wasteland and stuff in the way it can present huge problems.

Waikiki
05-05-2009, 03:33 PM
Mind sharing? I can't seem to find room for the anger tbh PM plz

Di
05-05-2009, 03:51 PM
Oh, sure. I also forgot to mention cutting War Monk for Anger was fine. I still don't think it belongs in the main either way.

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis
1 Anger

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Winged Coatl/Sower of Temptation
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Eternal Witness
1 Trygon Predator
1 Qasili Pridemage

4 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
3 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Tundra
3 Forest

That's what I have currently. The Tundra could be cut for a basic land, or maybe the 2nd Taiga, but it's fine as it is for now. I too only run 3 Sprite as I find the 4th redundant and unnecessary. You have Cliques and Sower so the 4th isn't really needed. Otherwise everything else is fine. I kind of want to fit the 3rd Ponder in and 2nd Sower in (realistically I want 2 Sower AND 1 Coatl) but space is hard. The only slot I'd really trim is Eternal Witness, but that's unlikely.

Black Mass
05-05-2009, 06:31 PM
With the inclusion of Anger, wouldn't Tradewind rider make the staple in stead of sower?
He's also at 4, but costs only 1 blue. He's golden against big creatures like Tombslalker or Dreadnought, flies and can't be bolted.


I already explained how adding Anger actually strengthens it. You're swapping only one land, so it has a very minimal effect,

Do you feel adding 1 taiga is enough? I usually insert 2 in builds where red in just for anger. Just to be safe from an occasional wasteland...
But that would be stressing the manabase.
I'll take is as you're right and add it to my test list, see how it turns out.

Di
05-05-2009, 07:36 PM
With the inclusion of Anger, wouldn't Tradewind rider make the staple in stead of sower?
He's also at 4, but costs only 1 blue. He's golden against big creatures like Tombslalker or Dreadnought, flies and can't be bolted.


Perhaps. I debated on Tradewind Rider and mentioned it earlier, but these builds have a very low creature count to support it. Taking advantage of it is kind of difficult without something like Quirion Ranger to support it. However, I will mention that if you did include Tradewind Rider either Trygon Predator or Qasili Pridemage could be cut, as Tradewind handles that stuff as well. Tradewind over Trygon Predator is reasonable given they both require haste to work, and Tradewind is a bit more flexible anyway. It's worth looking into.



Do you feel adding 1 taiga is enough? I usually insert 2 in builds where red in just for anger. Just to be safe from an occasional wasteland...
But that would be stressing the manabase.
I'll take is as you're right and add it to my test list, see how it turns out.

A 2nd Taiga would be making it into the deck, yes, that was just a draft of a manabase. Cutting a basic Forest for it would be acceptable.

Jak
05-05-2009, 09:15 PM
Waikiki and I made a primer that still needs work, but it helps a bit. I still need to add some more information since I made it quick. Please help us add some more information to it like in the How to Play the Deck section or Matchups. Anything to help make the primer better.

And hopefully it could be moved to Established since there are some lists on Deckcheck.net that have done well.

Gman
05-05-2009, 11:48 PM
Is there a way we could fit in a Reveillark in this list? It would be insane with some Sowers/Witness in the yard. Is 5 cmc too much? Is the blue count low enough we can't take out Rafique or a V Clique?

Jak
05-06-2009, 01:39 AM
Is there a way we could fit in a Reveillark in this list? It would be insane with some Sowers/Witness in the yard. Is 5 cmc too much? Is the blue count low enough we can't take out Rafique or a V Clique?

It seems kind of limited though since this deck runs so few targets. We already have Genesis for recursion so I just don't see what it gets us.

Waikiki
05-06-2009, 10:13 AM
I've been testing more and more. With the anger build that is.

And my games stay looking like eot clique into more exalted creatures. I never need the haste since all the flash cards actually got semi haste.

As for mana fixing I never really needed the hierarchs to be able to tap at once. Just be able to give me exalted.

I did up the count to 20 land. 19 was a little tight. 3 ponders now.

I will test some more with anger but I'm not sold by far.

Black Mass
05-06-2009, 03:18 PM
I haven't done that much testing yet, but I experience the same.
But, in my original build I wasn't quite happy with Tradewind Rider, but with Anger it gets a lot better, I've only did limited testing with it, but at first sight it's quite viable.

Bardo
05-07-2009, 12:05 AM
Moved to Established. Meets criteria.

Jak
05-07-2009, 03:05 AM
Moved to Established. Meets criteria.

Thank you a ton Bardo.

I played a bit more tonight and I realized how Rhox War Monk really needs to stay in. Life Gain just pulls you out of spots. This deck isn't blistering fast so being able to recover is needed, imo.

Black Mass
05-07-2009, 07:05 AM
I kinda like Kitchen Finks in that slot, he can gain you less life, but can come back after mass destruction effects.

GGoober
05-07-2009, 09:53 AM
From my testing, I agree with Jak

Rhox War Monk needs to be a 1-of in case of emergency lifelink.

I run 2 Pridemage + 1 Trygon main against all the game1s hate against CB-Top and any other form of artifacts/enchantments.

2 Cliques is all you need, and 3 Sprites is much better than 4 Sprites. Pitching Sprite to Force via tutoring is really tech, and against Thresh, I love playing T1 Noble Hierach and following up with Survival with Daze protection. If they FOW, you FOW back, and EOT discard and go nuts. More importantly, such a play also dodges some hate. Suppose they oblivion ring or bring out Trygon, you could EOT discard for Quasali Pridemage/Trygon (against Oring), or head for Sower (against Trygon). The only deal you can't deal with is Grips, but that's fine since it's a 1-1, and you have 3 more Survival + 1 Witness to deal with it.

I'm pretty sure this deck beats the shit out of Dreadstill. You have answers for everything, and if you resolve Survival, you can just go nuts with multiple Quasalis, and if they even attempt to EE for 2, you just tutor up EWitness. I agree with the anger build although I can see it being less effective against opposing Wastelands, but hasty Predators and Goyfs add so much more speed to the deck that it deserves the Anger spot. Goyfs are tremendously huge in this build. Seriously, like 6/7, 7/8 for most of the time due to exalted.

Di
05-07-2009, 04:29 PM
That's actually rather poor justification to run Rhox War Monk itself. If you're in need of emergency life gain, then immediate answers are a lot better (assuming you don't have haste) than War Monk as you have to wait a turn to attack and then block the following turn. If that's the case, then Kitchen Finks, Spike Feeder, or Loxodon Hierarch are all better.

Waikiki
05-07-2009, 04:49 PM
But war monk allows you to keep pushing pressure on the opponent and keep gaining more and more life. In my meta I simpy love him because of all the sligh decks running around. Also pitches to fow :x

Di
05-07-2009, 05:04 PM
I'm not saying he's bad by any means, and I'm well aware of what it's capable of. But as a utility creature he is terrible given the scenarios people are describing they want him in. If you're in need of emergency lifegain, then you need it immediately. If this is the case, there are very few scenarios that are taking place:

- You're playing against Burn/Sligh.

- You're staring at lethal on the other side of the board.

If it's the first case, then War Monk won't do anything. You most likely die during their next turn unless you happen to have haste. If you do, you'll still most likely die to a resolved Price of Progress as you'll have 4-5 duals in play just to cast him. Having a life gain source that you can use immediately and then recur is far more effective here. He's only really good here if you manage to stick him when you're in a comfortable position anyway. At that point, any life gain creature would work just fine.

In the second scenario, there has to be a few conditions met in order for War Monk to be stronger than a different life gainer. The first is that he is capable of blocking, meaning you're not dealing with flyers or something. The second is that even with the additional body you're still not going to die. In the first, you can just as easily find a flyer/Winged Coatl. In the second, if you're staring at an army and need to gain life, not only would a life gainer like Feeder/Hierarch be stronger here, but I'd go as far to say something like Sower would be as well.

Also if it comes to it, just StP one of your own attacking Goyfs with damage on the stack. Between exalted and Rafiq, that's fine. Again, I have no problems with War Monk, but he really doesn't fit the bill for what you're looking for. Given the situations, it seems like you feel like you're behind in the game and need to grab War Monk asap. If that's the case, then you either need to retool the deck to handle aggro better or use a different slot. Either way, I still don't think life gain is strong enough to warrant maindeck slots in this metagame.

Jak
05-07-2009, 10:08 PM
I do think a life gain slot is warranted. I see a ton of aggro decks and having a game winning card in the main deck is worth it, imo.

Now, Rhox can pull you out of shit just as well as a Loxodon Hierarch. With Survival, both end up costing 5 mana to tutor up and gain life. Rhox: Get Anger, Tutor for Rhox, play=5 mana. Loxodon: Tutor for Loxodon, play=5 mana.

There is the other 3 mana life gainers, but they just feel weak against stuff like Goblins where I need them to be strong. Rhox continually gains life, pitches to Force, and is a decent sized beater if I ever happen to draw him.

Radiant
05-07-2009, 10:51 PM
There is the other 3 mana life gainers, but they just feel weak against stuff like Goblins where I need them to be strong.

Especially against Goblins it prefer Kitchen Finks, as it kills Piledriver AND comes back for another kill.
War Monk just (kills a creature and) dies randomly after giving you 3 life.

Only drawback of the Finks is, that they are not pitch-able to Force.

Jak
05-07-2009, 10:54 PM
Especially against Goblins it prefer Kitchen Finks, as it kills Piledriver AND comes back for another kill.
War Monk just (kills a creature and) dies randomly after giving you 3 life.

Only drawback of the Finks is, that they are not pitch-able to Force.

How does it die randomly? The only thing that Finks does better than it is block Piledriver.

Jak
05-08-2009, 01:53 AM
Adding Anger really doesn't hurt the manabase at all and I think it helps the deck enough to warrant the inclusion.

20 Lands

4 Survival
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Noble Hierarch

1 Squee
1 Genesis
1 Anger

3 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Sower of Temptation

1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Trygon Predator
1 Eternal Witness

4 Tarmogoyf
1 Rafiq
1 Loxodon Hierarch

SB
3 Krosan Grip
4 Hydroblast
3 Meddling Mage
4 Orim's Chant
1 Loxodon Hierarch

Basically Di's list except I still don't want to drop the life gainer :)

GGoober
05-08-2009, 02:48 AM
Jak, my list is almost identical but with the following changes

-1 Rafiq
-1 Eternal Witness
+1 Ponder
+1 Quasali Pridemage

It seems to me at least that Rafiq is tremendously clunky although he is really good at winning games. However, more games are won through Rafiq + Flyers and our flyers are all easily destroyed. I would rather win with Goyfs than Rafiq. It's difficult to resolve Rafiq against Daze effects/FOW.

I like 2 Pridemage main since they deal with everything in the format. If you resolve Pridemage before CB, then you're in as dangerous a shape as they resolve CB (save sprites against STP).

I find Genesis redundant, but I can see how amazing he'll be in the mid-game, although this deck can win much consistently before the mid-game if survival is online.

I'm curious as to how this deck does against Dreadstill (packing Goyfs + Swords). I think we're superior post-board and I can see how Witness is going to be key in this matchup against EE and opposing Grips.

Against combo, I much prefer to board in: 2 Gaddock Teeg and 3 Meddling Mage than rely on Orim's Chant. Chant seems very narrow and I think Teeg also provides great answer against Landstill, not to mention Flash >>> Standstill lol.

I recommend SBing 2 Jittes, which completely owns burn and Goblins. We have flyers to further abuse Jitte. This deck is very good, and I like the inclusion of Anger. Hasty Predator and Goyfs is definitely a bonus, but more importantly, with a heavy forest (3 basic forest) build, one can fight through moon with Noble Hierarch and Survival, and yet tutor answers that have haste without Taiga (thanks to Blood Moon). It would suck if our only Taiga is wasted away. I think 2 Taiga is definitely too clunky, but 1 Taiga seems to not abuse Anger as much in such situations. Regardless, this deck does not need anger to function. This deck does not need Survival to function, and akin to Elf-Survival, it's the strength of the deck to be able to play without Survival.

Jak
05-08-2009, 03:43 AM
Hmm, I think Eternal Witness deserves its slot. It just has so many uses like recurring SB hate, Survivals, Swords, a counter when you need to, or getting a Goyf to swing for lethal. I think it is better than the 3rd arti/enchant removal.

Rafiq can end games with Goyf too. It is hard to turn down something that comes out of nowhere to help Goyfs deal 14 damage. It doesn't need to be in there though, I just like it.

The only thing I didn't like about boarding in Teegs and Mages is that makes a lot of disruption at 2cc. That ends up being slow sometimes. With 4 FoW, 4 Chant, 3 Sprite, 3 Mage, and 2 Clique, it is hard to lose.

Jittes are perfect! I wanted that continual life gain and this is it. I threw in three and it is great all around.

I have also been fine with one Taiga. Like you said, we don't need it so not getting it is fine. I am really happy with how the list is running. The additional cantrips help. I might try something like Waikiki's.

Waikiki
05-08-2009, 05:44 AM
Well the list you posted jak -hierarch +ponder is actually my list.

Also the rhox war monk side simply wins vs sligh and goblins. I have never lost a g2 and g3 vs those decks. THey just gain the life you need. Who cares if he doesn't block. You should not be blocking you should be taking them down. Attack. Together with the exalted and stuff your goyf/monk army should be way stronger then their army together with the hydroblasts you sided in.

Jittes are slow and not needed imo.

Black Mass
05-08-2009, 08:28 AM
I don't like the idea of jitte's either, seems WAY too slow and quite unnesessary to me.
But I'm not a fan of the war monk either. Di made some goodpoints about it, if I play a creature in that role, I want life right away not when it attacks, that's way too conditional for me. Sure it has an nice body (not being sexual here...), but Loxodon Hierarch and Kitchen Finks do too plus thay have extra's.

@ crz87: I think Rafiq is worth it to be played in this deck. He makes everything you play huge an beat like hell, as a one of to be tutored up in dire moments, he's golden. Leave him out an you'll miss him to swing games in your advantage.

Wargoos
05-08-2009, 09:09 AM
Deck looks good, but this version is weaker preboard vs. Combo since we don't run any discardeffects.
What card's are you running in the side to fight combo?
Teeg and Chants?

Waikiki
05-08-2009, 09:38 AM
check the openings post
pre board we have sprites + fows
after board we have Meddling mage/chant + sprite + fows


I was checking an other thread and stumbled upon dueling grounds. What use can this card be for us pre-board vs goblins/ichorid/any other deck with horde of creatures.

Our creatures are damn strong with all the exalted. Can this card be used?

Wargoos
05-08-2009, 09:47 AM
check the openings post
pre board we have sprites + fows
after board we have Meddling mage/chant + sprite + fows
Wow, that wasn't there the last time I checked.


I was checking an other thread and stumbled upon dueling grounds. What use can this card be for us pre-board vs goblins/ichorid/any other deck with horde of creatures.

Our creatures are damn strong with all the exalted. Can this card be used?
I used to play that in Thresh and found it amazing against swarm aggro decks.
Problem is that you have to use it in multiples to draw it, which pretty much sucks. Maybe some Enlightened Tutor out of the side can help, as they can dig u a SotF as well.

Waikiki
05-08-2009, 09:54 AM
I remember there is an 5 mana arti creature that does exactly the same. Seems sucky I guess.

Wargoos
05-08-2009, 09:56 AM
Silent Arbiter.

The good old 5/3 days.

GGoober
05-08-2009, 03:07 PM
I've been working on a tutor-box, (after seeing discussion on Dueling Grounds in UGw Thresh)

With 1-2 E.Tutor, you could go for MD 1 Engineered Explosives (against Moon effects), 1 Pithing Needle/Oblivion Ring or fetch Survival. Not sure if it's worth considering, but sometimes I wished I had EE for 3 (EE for 2 is pretty bad for us). Not to mention in the SB, the Tutor can fetch a variety of answers. Lists of E-Witness can also abuse multiple Tutor/Enchantment/Artifact recursion. Dueling Grounds is a natural choice for this deck (Exalted themed) but I think it's a win-more card honestly. This deck already has a good swarm aggro matchup with help from Rhox War Monk.

I think the Tutorbox is not needed since it clogs up the non-creature space which we're trying to remove. I am however starting to test out 1 Cold-Eye Selkie in the board. Against blue-based decks, he's a house if unanswered and not to mention with Hierarch (multiples in this deck), he can get really retarded fast lol. (I once tested Cold-Eye + Rafiq ZOMFG)

On the RWM v.s. Finks/Hierarch debate. I still like RWM, especially in the builds with Anger since RWM sticks to gain life over many turns whereas the others do not. 4 Toughness is still relevant in an although-boltless environment. RWM is also great on the 3cc curve. I would think Hierarch > RWM in terms of immediate life gain, but RWM > Finks unless you intend to recur Finks with Genesis, but so can be done with a RWM that chumps and lifelinks every turn. I would rather have a dude that sits and gains life every turn than a creature that gains a meagre 2-4 life once per game.

Jak
05-08-2009, 10:32 PM
Well the list you posted jak -hierarch +ponder is actually my list.

Also the rhox war monk side simply wins vs sligh and goblins. I have never lost a g2 and g3 vs those decks. THey just gain the life you need. Who cares if he doesn't block. You should not be blocking you should be taking them down. Attack. Together with the exalted and stuff your goyf/monk army should be way stronger then their army together with the hydroblasts you sided in.

Jittes are slow and not needed imo.

It is more like Di's. Anger, 20 lands, 2 Ponder, etc.

I'm still tweaking but Jittes are way more versatile than Monks since they can destroy Goblins, Merfolk, Elves, etc.

GGoober
05-10-2009, 06:36 PM
I played Bant Survival this Saturday at my Legacy group.

Tournament 9: 05/09/09
1st place: Louis with Burn
2nd place: Brian with ANT (Spanish version)

Participants:
Brian - ANT (Spanish version)
Drew - Imperial Painter (Gamble/Welder)
Louis - Burn
Chris Z - Bant Survival
Joey - UGw Thresh??
David - Deadguy
Eugene - Goblins
Lil' Chris - White Weenie
Ted - Deadguy
Sam - Rage Forger Shaman homebrew (let me know the name of your deck)


My matchups were ANT, Imperial Painter, Deadguy and White Weenie

Here's my decklist and a brief tournament report (didn't take notes, and I suck at writing reports).


DECKLIST
LANDS: 20
3 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Flooded Strand
1 Tundra
3 Savannah
4 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
2 Forest
1 Plains

CREATURES: 22
4 Noble Hierach
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Quasali Pridemage
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Trygon Predator
1 Meddling Mage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Genesis
1 Squee
1 Anger
1 Sower of Temptation


OTHERS: 19
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Survival

(Yes, I run a suboptimal list of 61 cards, but the tutor-box was great, and 20 lands with 41 non-lands feels right. I get flooded on 20 lands sometimes)
SIDEBOARD:
3 Krosan Grip
1 Trygon Predator
1 Quasali Pridemage
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Meddling Mage
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Blue Elemental Blast




MATCH 1: David with Deadguy
This is a bad matchup for Survival Bant, but I got lucky in my 2 games. Noble Hierarch is easily the best card in the deck since she saves your manabase against Wastes, Sinkholes and Vindicates. He was playing Grunts which were troublesome since they can shrink goyfs and not to mention putting my creatures (Squee) at the bottom of my library. So I tutored and flashed in creatures. Sprite countered many relevant thoughtseizes, while Clique + Exalted went in for the win. He had an insane game 2 of hymn + Thoughtseize + Gerrard's Verdict on turn 2, ripping my entire hand while leaving me with a Noble Hierarch. I eventually drew Survival and regained card advantage, while playing Witness grabbing swords to finish off his tombstalkers and beat with large goyfs for the win.

2-0-0




MATCH 2: Drew with Imperial Painter
I've tested this matchup before and the dice roll is really key here. If he lands moon and you don't have a basic/castable Hierach, you may as well proceed to lose to Magus beats. Both games, I mulled aggressively to either get basic+Hierarch or Force. Survival is a problem for Drew since red has no answers to Survival. At one game, he got a Welder out with 2 Grindstone and painter in the yard. I fetched for Pridemage which single-handedly saved me.

boarding for game 2, Drew adviced me that Quasali Pridemage >>>>>Trygon since it can't be REBed. I boarded my full suit of BEB and he lost a lot of advantage when I spellstuttered sprite Top, he REB and I BEB/FOW (can't remember). I then proceed to beat with Sprites/Clique with exalted bonus. He kills a Clique with REB but I had another one at his EOT. Clique is amazing for this matchup.

4-0

MATCH 3: Lil' Chris with White Weenie
I was confident with this matchup since RWM would single handedly win the game. My overconfidence was thrown down when he proceeds to land a TON of beaters and Avengers by turn 4 through a resolved vial. I had Survival in play, played carefully grabbing Anger + Squee + Noble Hierarch, and beat through with 7/8 Exalted Lifelinker RWM while saving my counters for Swords. I was balancing between 1 life and 8 life as I lifelinked and he swings in with flyers and shadow creatures. I finally managed to resolve a Sower grabbing his Mother of Runes which signalled the game loss for him since I no longer have to worry about my creatures being sworded and I can lifelink away with my 7/8 exalted. He tried Oringing Survival but in response a tutored Pridemage does the job next turn in freeing the broken enchantment.

Game 2 he got mana screwed and I just got crazy again with Survival.

6-0

So far undefeated, and I get paired with:
MATCH 4: Brian with ANT (Spanish version running Angel's Grace)
I am really confident with this matchup. Although we lose CB-Top, I think this Matchup is not too bad especially since Duress does not hit Sprite and Sprite does a ton for the deck. Clique is also amazing after they mystical tutor. However, Brian went off on T2 both times, so I'm confident that even CB would not have helped.

Game 1, I won the die roll and lost on turn 2. I had FOW, Survival + Hierarch. I played Hierarch T1, wanting to hit 4 mana on his Turn 2 so I can flash in Cliques/Spellstutter sprite after tutoring with Survival to lock him out. He went off turn 2 off a City of Traitor, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, ANT with Pact protection. The Spanish version of ANT is really good against FOW since Pact > FOW when you're going off.

G2 I boarded in 2 Meddling Mage, 2 Teeg, and out goes RWM and Genesis and many useless stuff. I kept a hand without FOW but Clique + Survival + Hierarch. Clique basically won me the game although after he pondered but he still had a nut hand of possibly going off (he was missing 1 mana source). I tutored Teeg which got destroyed by Virtue's Ruin, and I proceed to beat with 4 damage off Clique and killing him after tutoring a Mage naming Ad Nauseam. (Spanish version is so much more reliant on ANT and they don't play IGG so they have to resolve ANT or lose).

G3, I kept a hand of no FOW. A bad decision, but I had a super aggro hand of 2 Hierarchs, 1 Goyf, 1 Survival. I was going to lock him out with Teeg/Meddling Mage/Sprites but he comboed out on turn 2 again. This time, with double Duress protection so my FOW would have been useless.

Bad luck for me, great luck and great skillplay by Brian.


So I'm out of T4, although I was the only one with the best winning streak. I love this deck, and the strengths of the deck lies in the fact that it doesn't need Survival to function. It's basically CB-Topless Thresh with a more aggro win condition.

- Sprites and Cliques were good in the deck although Clique is only good in certain matchup. Against combo/control/Landstill/Dreadstill, Clique is easily your best creature.
- Ponder is needed in the deck, and I have no problems with 3 ponders, although I cut it to play my board pieces.
- RWM saved my ass twice, and I think we justify running him in the Anger builds since he lifelinks a TON immediately with Exalted Bonus.
- Genesis is SLOW. I think I want him in the SB against decks that are heavily anti-aggro. I used Genesis' ability once throughout the entire tournament, and I didn't even need to use him since I was using the ability to basically win-more.
- Witness has been good. I can see her shining in cases where your opponent Seals and destroys Survival while you tutor her out in response. She mostly grabs me StP
- Meddling Mage in the main has been a mixed feeling. Mine was a meta-call since I don't want to lose to ANT in Game1. I would probably not play him in the main.
- I did miss Rafiq in 2 games where I just wanted to beat and end the game instead of being obnoxious with Survival
- Against Deadguy, tutor out Noble Hierarchs. They will have trouble dealing with her and their mana denial plan is foiled if you do so.
- Sower is amazing in the deck, and much more with the Anger builds since you can grab their creature and swing in for tons of damage in a single turn. One game I sowered Tombstalker and swang for 7 in the air before she died next turn.

Best wishes, and this is a great deck.

Jak
05-10-2009, 07:18 PM
Sweet report. The AnT deck sounded tough to beat with all the protection and killing turn 2. I wouldn't think much on it.

I am really glad most of the list are all starting to look alike. It just means it is getting more and more optimized.

Radiant
05-10-2009, 08:03 PM
DECKLIST
LANDS: 20
3 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Flooded Strand
1 Tundra
3 Savannah
4 Tropical Island
3 Forest
1 Plains

CREATURES: 22
[...]
1 Anger
[...]

How does this work? You lack a little bit of mountain there, or do you just wait for an enemy Moon-effect?

If you would take Anger out, you would've a perfect 60-card list.

Other than that, good report, was interesting and fun to read.

Jak
05-10-2009, 08:05 PM
How does this work? You lack a little bit of mountain there, or do you just wait for an enemy Moon-effect?

If you would take Anger out, you would've a perfect 60-card list.

Other than that, good report, was interesting and fun to read.

That probably is just a mistake (the manabase, not the Anger).

Radiant
05-10-2009, 08:09 PM
That probably is just a mistake (the manabase, not the Anger).

That's my guess too. But I'd rather like to know, than to guess.

I'd change 1 Savannah into 1 Taiga.

GGoober
05-10-2009, 08:26 PM
Yeah, mistake. It was 2 Forest, 1 Taiga. I might switch to -1 Savannah +1 Forest as Radiant suggested.

Actually against Moon decks, it's pretty funny, make sure you get Hierarch online, and fetch basic Forest, then you can grab anger under Survival and Moon effects and play hasty goyfs :P I did that once to my friend (DrewliusMaximus) whose Magus made all my tutored 4/5 Goyfs hasty :P

Although if they resolve Moon before you resolve Hierach/FOW/Survival, you're screwed lol.

Mister Agent
05-10-2009, 09:46 PM
I like your list Jak. I have a question to ask you. Have you considered upping your qasali, pridemage count up to four? I think that would be pretty slick if you could up that count since Qasali just seems too good to be running just as a 1-of. Also, if you run 4 pridemages you could go the absolute nuts against countertop decks because of survival of the fittest. Other then that, I think this deck has a ton of potential in Legacy, good work.

Jak
05-10-2009, 10:20 PM
I like your list Jak. I have a question to ask you. Have you considered upping your qasali, pridemage count up to four? I think that would be pretty slick if you could up that count since Qasali just seems too good to be running just as a 1-of. Also, if you run 4 pridemages you could go the absolute nuts against countertop decks because of survival of the fittest. Other then that, I think this deck has a ton of potential in Legacy, good work.

I want to. It is an amazing creature providing the deck with utility and an offensive boost when you don't need it. I have fought for him and tried to get people to play more earlier in the thread but they convinced me that it just isn't necessary. The slots need to go to other things like finishers, control, cantrips to smooth draws, etc. I have tried running 2 recently over the Trygon slot but that doesn't work out with Counterbalance.

Basically, if I had 3 more slots, those would be at the top of the list to go in.

Waikiki
05-11-2009, 03:43 AM
Awesome report ! The decklists actually look all alike now maybe 1-3 cards difference but that will just be personal reference/meta. Im glad you picked up the ponders they work really great ;)

I will be picking this deck up for 25th. Hope I can do a report on that one aswell.

Henrik
05-13-2009, 09:17 AM
I have been playing this deck in my local weekly tournament the last couple of weeks. They are quite small, so there are only 3 rounds each week, but the meta is quite developed. In total, I am now at 5-0-1, with the deck. Here's what I play:

4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
1 Island
1 plains
2 Forest

4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 gilded drake
1 man-o'-war
1 wonder
1 rafiq of the many
1 Eternal Witness

3 ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Swords to Plowshares

SB:
2 pithing needle
3 krosan grip
3 umezawa's jitte
4 Hydroblast
3 Rhox War Monk

The list is quite similar to the last couple of posts, as already mentioned, I think we are coming to an optimized list. Some key points are different though.
-No anger. I have never felt i need it, and I don't have the heart to be that rude to my manabase.
-I agree with Waikiki et. al. that we should play as many cantrips as possible. 3 ponders, you wont regret it.
-I use gilded drake/man-o'-war instead of Sower's, because I don't trust I can defend the Sower reliantly, and then it's just a waste of time and resources. Sowers are really good in CB/top decks, but this deck need 7 mana in one turn to play the Sower, tutor a sprite and play in response to plowshares. With drake we just trade and get it over with, and later on, I can return the drake to my hand. Also, Man-o-war was great against dreadstill.

The sideboard is very faced against aggro and sligh, because, well I need it.
I have nothing against combo, but I don't need it in these small tournaments, but I will fix it before going to a bigger event.

The games i won against so far was against
UG Coatl-gro
BG rock
4c Landstill
Merfolks
Dreadstill
and I had a draw with Domain Zoo.

The deck is really powerfull and consitent and plays well without survival. clique + exalted + counters often makes it all the way.

Waikiki
05-13-2009, 09:38 AM
Im not that fond of man o war + drake. Drake opens you up to spell snare. Sower is not only protectable by fow and sprite. You could also play a clique and take their removal/counter so the way is clear for sower. Also most of the times where I find myself in need of a sower giving them a 3/3 flier seems problematic aswell. unless I steal a tombstalker.

I've been testing alot and am still not convinced we actually need anger. Also i've been checking how often I actually use genesis. Maybe this slot can indeed go to the sideboard and we could add something to the maindeck that fits your meta 4th ponder/war monk/ extra sprite etc.

Great more people are picking up this deck!

What do you guys think, is genesis md worthy or can he be replaced? (unless your meta is full with control)

My list (could you put it in the openingspost jak?):


// Lands
4 [A] Tropical Island
3 [B] Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [US] Forest (4)
2 [A] Tundra
1 [US] Island (1)
1 [PT] Plains (1)

// Creatures
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
3 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
4 [CNF] Noble Hierarch
1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
1 [ARB] Winged Coatl

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [JU] Genesis
SB: 2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [DIS] Spell Snare

SB is simply for my aggro meta, Hardly any CB deck presented. Im testing spell snare for the eva green matchups

Henrik
05-13-2009, 10:39 AM
Agreed, Genesis is often close to useless. I tested it for a while, never used it, took it out of the deck and haven't missed it since. Perhaps one in the board couldn't harm, if there is room for it. After all, I'm guessing it would be nice against sweepers in theory at least, but I have no good experience of it.

Regarding drake, Giving away a 3/3 flyer is rarely a problem at all, since you probably have 2 goyfs and a coulple of randoms flying around in your defence. The spell snare is a valid point though, but against decks that actually play spell snare (UGr thresh, Dreadstill) you have an advantage of wonder and exalted to begin with. Those are not the creatures we (I) really want to take control of. Tombstalker on the other hand is a prime example, or annoying stuff like exalted angel. But in the end, it's all about personal preference I guess.

EDIT: I just noticed you don't play wonder. In that case, the statement above is of course not valid.

sdematt
05-13-2009, 11:22 AM
I've been running pretty much Jak's list, with a Winged Coatl added in. Tis a great card, can be flashed into kill random stuff I don't like!

But the list is very nice, good job Jak/waikiki!

Black Mass
05-13-2009, 01:41 PM
Waikiki, do you feel that in Belgian/Dutch meta the predator is necessary? There are hardly aney CB deck around, couldn't it just be a additional Pridemage?

On genesis, I also agree it is slow, without rofellos it's not really worth the space I think. I play tradewind Rider in its place.

Jak
05-13-2009, 01:49 PM
Genesis is meant to just give the deck a late game. Recurring anything you need. I only wish for him against control since that is where he shines so if you aren't seeing a lot of Deeds, WoGs, EEs, Smothers, etc than cutting him probably won't hurt.

Waikiki
05-13-2009, 01:50 PM
Yes you could change that. CB aint a big deal around here. But I also like it against random affinity/stax decks. And it pitches + blocks hippie all day long.

Jak
05-13-2009, 08:36 PM
@Waikiki
I updated your list, but why all the non-green lands? I really hate the plains since I just can't see when you would want it.

GGoober
05-14-2009, 01:56 AM
Firstly from my tourney testing: Genesis was activated ONCE in the entire day, and that was win-more activation. I would play Genesis in the side and use it against decks that have a ton of creature-hate e.g. Pox and Landstill.

The MVP for the deck is clearly Noble Hierarch, and Spellstutter Sprite comes close. I'm upping her up to 4 instead of 3. She pitches to FOW (which is what we do sometimes in this deck, tutor her up to pitch to FOW). Clique is amazing, but only in certain Matchups or if you're proceeding to protect Sower.

Here's the deal with the deck as far as I tested. If you resolve Survival, you're going to win in your favor with the card advantage. If you don't resolve Survival, it plays as a weaker version of Thresh. But you can think of that as CB-Thresh not resolving CB, which in this case, our deck is still superior since it is more aggro-based. If you resolve Survival and it gets destroyed/o-ringed, it doesn't matter as long as you're careful since you can tutor up a Pridemage for Oring or an E-Witness to recur it back unless they grip.

3 Ponder is the right amount of non-brainstorm Cantrip. I tested Top, but it was too mana intensive. Ponder also gives a good mid-game when topdecking, allowing you to see 3 cards ahead.

I'm still a fan of the Anger-builds since Sower + Anger is pretty insane, and hasty Goyfs and Trygon isn't something to laugh at. And even more, Rhox War Monk with haste is much better than Kitchen Finks/Hierarch as discussed earlier. If we play a non-Anger build, then RWM is subpar and I think Gilded Drake is a good inclusion. If I played Drake builds, I'll go with Tradewind Rider and be retarded lol. Doesn't seem like a bad idea actually for non-anger builds (although you will miss ATS build :P)

This is actually very funny, but I play 1 Sporefrog in the sideboard. It completely kills aggro with Genesis for 4G and not to mention if they do not run GY hate, you can beat Progenitus MU easily. I'm not sure if Sporefrog is good against Goblins. Might be worth a try lol. But I usually just board Jitte in against Tribal decks. Although I could see myself using 1x Spore Frog against Natural Order Elf Survival.

Waikiki
05-14-2009, 03:50 AM
I've been using the white spore frog in a tournament which got me the win vs survival elves. They just can't win anymore.

I tested top aswell and indeed it's too mana intensive.

@Jak, yep the plains was actually the taiga/anger package. Im not totally sold out to where I want to go with that yet. You could change it in an additional forest or savannah in the list :)

I will do some more testing with anger. I need a tournament to test in!

totti
05-18-2009, 08:50 AM
Is Kira, Great Glass-Spinner worth playing in this deck as a one-of? I like the way she plays with Sower of Temptation (maybe more Sowers could then be included?).

Waikiki
05-18-2009, 05:01 PM
What slots are you suggesting to cut? It sounds nice in a meta with tons of sport removal. But if it's needed I do not know. Creatures most of the time are not the problem. THey get back or others will be found when survival is out.

Normally I would say blegh it doesn't beat by itself but with exalted it does!

Black Mass
05-18-2009, 05:02 PM
@ Totti

In my opinion, no. Kira is cute, but unnesessary, plus finding room for other cards is hard enough as it is. Kira gives nice protection though, if only she/he/it had flash...


EDIT: some minor type errors

Waikiki
05-18-2009, 05:17 PM
Flash doesn't really matter that much since you can't play it in respond, the creature will be allready target so kira won't trigger. Plaxmanta sounds fun aswell. but well not needed

Jak
05-19-2009, 01:38 AM
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
3 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Tundra
2 Forest

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest

1 Squee
1 Anger

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Rafiq
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Eternal Witness
1 Trygon Predator
1 Qasali Pridemage

SB
1 Genesis
3 Meddling Mage
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Rhox War Monk

I've been running with this after getting owned a few times for not having tutorable removal. Adding an additional red source and an FtK game me the outs I needed for Confidants, Sowers, <3/4 Goyfs, Grim Lavamancers, Nacatls, etc. Just having that swing in board position was what I needed. Now, I still don't know if I am comfortable with it, but it has seemed strong so far.

Waikiki
05-19-2009, 04:28 AM
Could you describe a little more about what matchup you lost to. I'm interested. Confident is a pain in the ass but kavu seems a bit slow. Fire imp perhaps? I know kavu beats harder but with exalted and other fat beaters we run he might be better.

Also, still happy with the 4 sprites?

Also, I've played some games and still never found myself in need of anger. Either the taiga gets wasted. Or I'm attacking with clique (which got flashed in anyways) Chaining goyfs will win anyways anger or not. most of the time rafiq gives such a big blow the game is over anyways.

Could you give some situations where u thought to yourself man anger rocks!


Last one. Did fix my manabase. Basic plains and island are not needed with hierarch. Unless DS got both moon and chalice for 1 down. But then still goyf could go all the way? Maybe basic plains is even better then the island for stp and pridemage.

Black Mass
05-19-2009, 07:14 AM
In matchups where we need FTK, he's way to costly. Fire imp seems like a better inclusion to me too, since most of the time 2 damage is enough in most current meta's.
Anger has been doing fine for me though, or better said, bbetter than I expected. It stole me some games with hasty goyfs, but I guess it could easily be another card without really be missed, I'd opt for a 4th sprite since they're REALLY that good or up your pridemage count for the same reason.

On Kira: Are you sure the spell doesn't get countered Waikiki? Isn't it the game that keeps track of the nuber of times a creature has been targetted this turn, thus if it was the first time a creature is targetted and kira comes flashing in to play the targetting spell is countered as it being the first spell targetting the creature, completing the clause on Kira. Could be wrong though.

Waikiki
05-19-2009, 11:27 AM
It's been targetted before kira enters play. It resolves after kira is in play. Kira only cares about when it's target and that was before kira could do anything about it. At least that's what i've been told.

Jak
05-19-2009, 08:47 PM
Eh I think that post was me over exaggerating. I was just playing a few games against a friend and had trouble with not being able to swing the game in my favor even with Survival. I still ended up winning the match but I always get paranoid with my list when I feel I don't have an answer to something like a creature.

I really don't like Fire Imp just because it is still so small and limited. I can't get rid of Kird Apes or Nacatls, block a Mongoose, sometimes kill a Goyf, Pit Dragons, War Monks, etc. I guess neither belong.

@Sprite
I had cut it down to three but recently I have just been craving more. Having more means drawing more and with them, drawing more is what you want.

@Anger
I totally agree with you. It isn't necessary, but it can win you games by giving your War Monk haste, or getting that other color of mana. It by no means is necessary to get so just winning with Goyfs and EOT Faeries is just as good.

In playing last night, I was about to die to Zoo. I had Survival out, but Goyfs kept getting burned, and I had no white mana to stop his Nacatls. I was able to finally fetch for Taiga, get rid of something, get Anger, Get Hierarch and play the War Monk and get out of lethal range. It has its purposes.

GGoober
05-21-2009, 03:22 AM
Glad people are liking 4 Sprites. I'm a fan of 4 Sprites after testing with 3. Like Jak said, you want to draw more, blocking Bob and countering StPs/Brainstorm is huge.

I've been testing Gilded Drake and I must say that I like him ALOT better than Sower. Sower is really too risky to protect and 4 mana is really taxing in tight situations. There were games where I cannot cast him out with protection e.g. with Sprite so I had to opt for RWM to put me out of danger.

Gilded Drake has been amazing so far. 2 mana 3/3 flyer is no big deal. Your 4/5, 5/6, 6/7, 7/8, 10/11 goyf gets chumped for a turn while you beat in with their best creature as well. You don't lose the creature after trading. I've been testing out Tradewind Rider with Drake. It's a little clunky, and definitely win-more but either Rider or Drake is usually a good play to set you on a huge advantage. If you get both out (easy with Survival), it's usually GG. If you play the Rider build, you'll have to fetch out multiple Hierarchs asap to get the tapping creature for the Rider. Hierarch also accelerates out protection + tutor targets effectively. But in conclusion, as much as Sower adds to the Faerie count, I've been disliking him more and more in comaprision to an easier-to-cast Drake who doesn't cause you to lose the creature to gain. Sometimes, Sower reads 2UU + protection to get a 2/2 flying + prevent the next creature removal. It's very good don't get me wrong, but with all that mana-investment, we can play with a tighter answer that's better in tighter situations.

Waikiki
05-21-2009, 04:29 AM
Can you post/pm your list?

Blitzbold
05-21-2009, 05:08 AM
I'd also be interested. Do you use Tradewind for a creature-softlock? This seems to be a bit clunky considering how fast this deck can kill sometimes. My thoughts were using a single Man O'War when trying Gilded Drake.

Jak
05-22-2009, 01:08 AM
Hmm Tradewind does sound good. I wanted to try it, but I figured the deck would have to change a lot. The deck kind of has (in my version) with the red splash so maybe it should be tried.

+1 Quirion Ranger
+1 Gilded Drake
+1 Tradewind Rider
+1 Rofellos

Cutting stuff would be hard, but I have been screwed by Sower a few times.

Black Mass
05-22-2009, 07:16 AM
I like Rofellos, but I don't think he's needed here.
Ranger is allways interesting, creates mana and protects your basics.

Hope I can find the room...

Waikiki
05-22-2009, 07:20 AM
Well I can't :D

I also think these changes would make the build more survival dependant something I do not want to have.

Zlatzman
05-22-2009, 09:04 AM
How would Waterfront Bouncer work in the Tradewind Rider slot?

+ Cheaper to play
+ Doesn't require two additional creatures
(+ is a merfolk for the merfolk-matchup)

- Only one toughtness, meaning it can't block and is easily killed by burn
- No flying
- Need to pay a mana and discard a card to bounce

Black Mass
05-22-2009, 02:01 PM
You forgot a significant downside: it is limited to creatures only whilst TR can return counterbalances, chalice, lands,...

Plus needing 2 extra creatures isn't so hard to get in this deck and most of the time you'll want only one to attack because of exalted.

Blitzbold
05-22-2009, 02:48 PM
The more I think about Tradewind Rider, the more I want to include Anger also. I'd would'nt like using him as a lightning rod for removal while being summoning sick.

Henrik
05-24-2009, 11:21 AM
For those of you that likes gilded drake in the tutor-critter-control spot, I would like to once again refer to my list posted on page 6. In that list I complement the drake with a singel man-o'-war, which is by far enough. Tradewind rider is to slow IMO, but then again, I don't play the anger, so I wouldn't know about how he performs in those lists.

This last week gilded drake won me both games against Team America like a hero. First game i SOTF:d for it to exhange with a tombstalker, and TA has absolutely no answers for it. Second game I was pushed hard on the defence with only two lands and no survival, when i topdecked the drake. Once again, my opponent could do nothing about the tombstalker facing him. There's no way a Sower could have saved that game for me.

Thing is, if you play wonder as well, you don't even have to bother bouncing the drake back up, even though it is a rather cute thing to do.

adrieng
05-24-2009, 05:18 PM
Awesome. Survival gives us the win if it lands. Even if it doesn't, our threat density is really high and we have a lot of exalted creatures to win stalemates. They have a worse late game so get your recursion engine going and play for the long game.

I really don't see how you beat countetop decks. Even if you resolve survival,
they just need to resolve a single counterbalance to win. The have top+dark to find them faster than you. They have either daze or snare to counter your survival. You have only 4 fow to protect it.
Furthermore, the latest version play qasali prdemage or trinket+ee to destroy your survival.

All that to say, I don't see how is survival better than counterbance. That is the question. Why playing survival over counterbalance ??

Waikiki
05-24-2009, 06:24 PM
I really don't see how you beat countetop decks. Even if you resolve survival,
they just need to resolve a single counterbalance to win. The have top+dark to find them faster than you. They have either daze or snare to counter your survival. You have only 4 fow to protect it.
Furthermore, the latest version play qasali prdemage or trinket+ee to destroy your survival.

All that to say, I don't see how is survival better than counterbance. That is the question. Why playing survival over counterbalance ??

Have you ever test the deck? Before they got top/CB active you allready got creatures active. Also the 3cc count is pretty strong with us. We got more creatures. and a way better tutor power thnx to survival. Sure we need to resolve survival. But the only thing we need to stop from their deck is CB. They need to stop alot of our creatures and survival aswell.

adrieng
05-25-2009, 02:44 PM
Have you ever test the deck? Before they got top/CB active you allready got creatures active. Also the 3cc count is pretty strong with us. We got more creatures. and a way better tutor power thnx to survival. Sure we need to resolve survival. But the only thing we need to stop from their deck is CB. They need to stop alot of our creatures and survival aswell.

No, I didn't test the deck. The deck is basicly threshold but with survival instead
of counterbalance.

That's quite easy to go

-4 survival
+4 counterbalance
-1 genesis/squee/witness..
+4 sensei's

and you have a "classic" threshold build
with weaker creatures (spellstuter in the place of dark confidant/qasali).

If I am wrong correct me, but really the deck is threshold with survival in the place of counterbalance.

As we all know, survival is a tier 2 and countertop is right now the best deck in the format.

Waikiki
05-25-2009, 03:00 PM
Ok so the faerie package + survival answers and noble hierarch where all in threshold allready? We do not even pack daze. It's a complete different deck with a different gameplan. You should test and play different with it then you play with thresh. Try it and then share what your finding are.

Jak
05-25-2009, 06:47 PM
No, I didn't test the deck. The deck is basicly threshold but with survival instead
of counterbalance.

That's quite easy to go

-4 survival
+4 counterbalance
-1 genesis/squee/witness..
+4 sensei's

and you have a "classic" threshold build
with weaker creatures (spellstuter in the place of dark confidant/qasali).

If I am wrong correct me, but really the deck is threshold with survival in the place of counterbalance.

As we all know, survival is a tier 2 and countertop is right now the best deck in the format.

So so so so wrong. So playing UGw means this is Thresh? I don't even know how to respond to this since it is so off base. Please, at least try the deck before just randomly posting shit that makes no sense.

This deck does beat Counterbalance decks. Counterbalance is the only thing we do have to worry about in decks like Thresh or Nassif because it allows them to keep up with us. We can counter it, play around it, destroy it, etc. Post-board there are Grips also. The fact is, we have a much better late game and so many of our cards pose problems for them. Fortunately, we have many 3 and 4cc cards plus Qasali and Trygon plus a recursion engine.

GGoober
05-26-2009, 12:39 AM
Haven't had the time to test Tradewind Rider, but from experience and theory, I'm too sold on Gilded Drake. I think it's much better than Sower, which I agree with Henrik. The pure fact that 3/3 flying isn't that great a deal (e.g. Serra Avenger) compared to what you're going to steal, makes it irrelevant if they get a flying beater. We're talking about legacy where 4/5, 5/6, 12/12 trample, 5/5 flying is much better than a 3/3 flyer. Many times when I played Sower, I had to keep FOW or a spare 1U for Sprites to protect against STP. With Drake, I seriously just invest 1U and perhaps one turn of chump-blocking or stallmates to win the game. If you have Manowar/TR, then it's a win-more situation, and your opponents will most certainly scoop. Sower has the problem of STP, REBs, and Bolts, which is fairly annoying for me.

I can see why Man-O-War is good over TR but I think that for that additional mana investment, you get a creature that is evasive out of CB-Top, and also the added fact that it's a permanent that sticks in play that gets rid of many things not just creatures.

@Adrieng: Survival Bant is more of a tutor-box aggro approach of Thresh. I dislike playing CB-Top even though it's a powerful engine, but this deck has the same potency as CB-Top. If you get a Survival out unanswered, you're most likely going to win the game, just as if you get CB-Top engine out. The deck has its strength and answers against opposing CB-Top since Pridemages resolved before CB will give CB-decks a lot of problems. You can argue that if they resolve CB first, then you're screwed, but either way, each party is screwed if we resolved either pieces. If you resolved Survival and they resolved CB, I think Survival would win since they can tutor up answers and counters.

Also, a bonus of Survival Bant is that Sprite is a creature, so against ANT variants combo decks, you dodge Duress, which has proven to be a pro for me. Not to mention that tutoring up Sprites for FOW and Cliques against Loam/ANT is huge. It's really the playstyle. If you dislike CB-Top, this is the deck for you.

Jak
05-26-2009, 12:46 AM
I agree completely on the pro-Drake arguments. Sower is good, but in Survival Bant, it is much harder to protect than in Counter Top decks.

With it, it just makes me want to run some form of tutorable removal like Tradewind Rider since it will hit Counterbalance, creatures, and it has great Synergy with Drake. Man o War still seems good since it is faster, but I just feel the need for the versatility and more board control.

eq.firemind
05-26-2009, 02:09 AM
Hey, people, what do you think about Aethersnipe as a bounce-creature/support to drake? It costs just like Man-o-War, and IMHO bounce-all >> 2/2 body. Plus you can get your 4/4 for :5::u: in late-game and Snipe will 100% time dodge Counterbalance.

GGoober
05-26-2009, 02:26 AM
Snipe's an actually good candidate for this deck. Tutorable and pitches to FOW, reusable via Genesis against Landstill decks etc, and comes as a good beater. I think it's worth considering.


With regards to Tradewind Rider, I haven't done testing with to give good numbers, but I'm guessing the fact that TR requires 3 creatures in play to be used, and no haste is a drawback, makes TR very hard to pull off. the manacost is a problem, but not too much since it's usually an incentive to tutor out multiple hierarchs when you have anger in the yard so hitting 3cc or more with Survival mana-base isn't a tough problem unless you're facing against EE@1/2. If you do pull Tradewind off, you will probably win the game. I do feel that Gilded Drake should replace Sower with or without any support. I think Drake is just plain underrated in Legacy at the moment. It might see popular play perhaps. Even Thresh has problems resolving and protecting Sower, and the only reasons why Thresh can play Sower is because they have CB-Top to protect it.

To account for the loss of a Faerie, I'd play 4 Sprites, and I've never felt that 4 Sprites was a mistake since in this deck, the Exalted bonus makes it a good beater. Turn 1 Hierarch into Sprite + brainstorm/STP bluffing a counterspell is pretty good if you don't draw a Survival and hope to disrupt while digging into one while beating.

Waikiki
05-26-2009, 04:34 AM
Ok so I will test out the gilded drake, I'm not that sold on tradewind rider yet. It seems to me if your able to use his tricks you would allready be in a winning situation (big board, survival out).

For refference my current list:

// Lands
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [B] Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [US] Forest (4)
1 [A] Tundra
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [US] Plains (3)

// Creatures
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
3 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
4 [CNF] Noble Hierarch
1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [LRW] Ponder
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 1 [JU] Genesis
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [DIS] Spell Snare
SB: 1 [PY] Spore Frog

I suggest not looking at the sb cause I always make SB's according to my scouting.

I did add 1 jitte md. It's really great at powering up the faeries. So im thinking of -1 sower +1 drake.

Thing is I do not only steal fatties. I've stolen confidants before with a topdecked sower to stop the rock player from gaining too much CA. Maybe I'm just too afraid of the 3/3 body. Will test it none the less. Sure sower is removable. But check the oppent hand first with an eot clique. then cast sower. It only needs to be alive that turn and after it you can start protecting it with the sprites (sower + clique + sprite = countering even vindicate)

Current thoughts are to remove 1 ponder and add the 4th faerie.

I still do not run anger in my tournament list. I still haven't had a situation where I'd think. Damn if I had anger right now i'd win way more easy.

@basic plains. I'd like to be able to cast stp at all times.

Henrik
05-26-2009, 05:48 AM
Waikiki, I still argue that if you add Wonder to your list, a 3/3 flyer on you opponent's side will be no big deal at all. Because of your exalted mechanichs, you will almost always have a flying goyf in your defence, even though you attack with one other creature each turn.

Henrik
05-26-2009, 06:00 AM
Perhaps someone could help me with a little bit of sideboard discussion? Even though I have done well with this deck so far in tournament play (7-0-2 in total), I hardly ever used the sideboard at all. I would like to think that is because the maindeck is so damn good =) but I have to consider the other explanation, that I have a bad sideboard.

Here's the current board I use:

4 hydroblast (goblins, sligh, burn etc)
3 rhox war monk ( -"-)
3 jitte (-"-, merfolks)
3 krosan grip (most boarded card, even though I have 2 pridemage main. Thinking of going up to 4, because it's just that good)
2 pithing needle (landstill, randon utility)

Perhaps I have focused a litte to much on the aggro-MU, but I just don't know what else to have there. Any ideas?

Waikiki
05-26-2009, 06:03 AM
you could remove jitte + hydroblasts for 4 path to exile. They both work for the goblin and merfolk matchup.

@Wonder, that would be another card i'd want to add although I could see getting an alpha strike with goyfs. But most of the time I will win with alot of goyfs anyway. If they have flying or not. I will simply put the drake to the test ;)

Henrik
05-26-2009, 06:53 AM
Hey, I never even thought of Path to exile. It could work. I'd rather exhange the war monks though, and keep jitte and blasts for burn and other hysterically aggresive red decks.

@Wonder, I know what you mean, a lot of goyfs is always a good scenario, wonder or no. However, when I first played without wonder, I was faced goyfs to goyfs against a rock deck, and I could do nothing for 2-3 rounds, giving him time to find a deed to reset the board. I couldn't help but think that with a wonder, I could end this game right now. And, since I added the card, that's exactly the kind of "In my next attack-phase I am going to win"-feeling I've been having. Even though we play a lot of flyers already, I don't consider wonder to be win-more, but rather a complement.

Waikiki
05-26-2009, 07:01 AM
Good point.

I would never cut war monks from the sb in my meta they really rule vs burn and sligh games. Where jitte is really slow. and I allready run 1 jitte md.

Also needle sb isn't such a bad idea. Maybe we could add a trinket mage to tutor for so it can find both needle and crypt.

Black Mass
05-26-2009, 07:27 AM
Why do you run 1 Jitte in your main. You can't tutor for it and it seems like a very weak silver bullet.
Jitte's days have past in my beliefs. He's great and versatile but so are many other cards...
I'd play Gilded drake, 2nd sower, 4th ponder, Tradewindrider,... over it any day. It seems like a wasted spot to me.

Waikiki
05-26-2009, 07:39 AM
Well in my aggro meta it serves very well. It can act as removal/lifegain which is very important. Also it can make the sprites very usefull even without exalted. It's a total meta slot and yes it can easily be changed for something else. It did won me the game vs The rock yesterday where he managed to keep survival of the board but just couldn't handle jitte anymore.

Waikiki
05-26-2009, 06:01 PM
Ok So I finally had a moment where I..... fuck I have no mana to dodge that last card (daze) in his hand. Now I can't Sower his big ass coatl (could we run this thing aswell?) Drake would have made me do that. (but does get hit with snare which is run more often I guess) Im going to make the switch to drake for now.

As a side-note can we make this deck more aggro by adding coatl or is he too slow in this deck and needs a more dedicated shell with tops and more ponders?

Henrik
05-28-2009, 11:43 AM
Congrats on the descision to swith for Drake, he's a cutie.

Of course the deck could play Coatl, but why would we need it? As I see it, the power of this deck is the ability to switch gear somewhere around turn 4-6 with more power than any other aggro-control deck, from a set-up, controlish play to go aggro and aiming to win in about 2 turns following, through massive exalted attack in the air. The Coatl does not really aid us in that transition, and since we shift to aggro-mode so swiftly, I don't see it beeing very huge either. A goyf or a clique would be about as big, played the turn berfore, as a coatl. And if you face a huge Coatl, just ignore it and fly over, perhaps chumping with a hierarch if needed, or nick it with a Drake of yours.

Either way, I wouldn't find room for any Coatls, would you?

Waikiki
05-28-2009, 12:32 PM
Nope, better of playing thresh then ;)

Jak
05-31-2009, 02:34 AM
In my sideboard, I have added Counterbalance/Top. I realized that it is better than Mage at stopping Loam decks, it is better than Mage against Combo, it is better than 4 Hydroblasts and 3 War Monks against Burn, and it can come in against Landstill to protect your creatures.

3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Krosan Grip
4 Hydroblast
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Gaddock Teeg

Now this makes me want to get back to testing CB in the MD but I think that would change the deck up into something else. Probably a worse something else since my deck isn't focused on abusing it. In the board, it can take out the dead cards that I would have in the MD to beat Landstill or combo, or Burn.

GGoober
05-31-2009, 02:45 AM
I've had a similar list with CB/Top either not both with Bant Survival. I played 3SDT over 3 Ponders while having 4 Counterbalance in the sideboard against the combo and burn/thresh matchups.

I would recommend not putting CB AND Top in since it really dilutes the strategy. If you do put both in, then just play Thresh since it's more consistent. putting CB in the MD without Top is just wrong, but playing Top over Ponder is an alternative, not to mention fetches + Survival really help shuffle the deck up.

I've been a little annoyed by the lack of countermagic in the deck. Sprite is not free. I'm thinking of playing 3 Daze over 3 Ponder now. But that really drops the cantrips down to 4 Brainstorm, making it a little inconsistent.

Chalice @2 kind of hurt the decks. I removed Trygon to FOW against Faerie Stompy and he chaliced for 2, stopping Goyfs, Pridemage, Sprites, everything and also Drake (I can see why Sower is better in this case, but she's still hard to cast and resolve and protect).

Jak
05-31-2009, 03:15 AM
I've had a similar list with CB/Top either not both with Bant Survival. I played 3SDT over 3 Ponders while having 4 Counterbalance in the sideboard against the combo and burn/thresh matchups.

I would recommend not putting CB AND Top in since it really dilutes the strategy. If you do put both in, then just play Thresh since it's more consistent. putting CB in the MD without Top is just wrong, but playing Top over Ponder is an alternative, not to mention fetches + Survival really help shuffle the deck up.

I've been a little annoyed by the lack of countermagic in the deck. Sprite is not free. I'm thinking of playing 3 Daze over 3 Ponder now. But that really drops the cantrips down to 4 Brainstorm, making it a little inconsistent.

Chalice @2 kind of hurt the decks. I removed Trygon to FOW against Faerie Stompy and he chaliced for 2, stopping Goyfs, Pridemage, Sprites, everything and also Drake (I can see why Sower is better in this case, but she's still hard to cast and resolve and protect).

I thought about having Tops main so my SB could be a little more diverse but then it lowers the blue count a bit too much. I'm still working with it in the SB.

I have also wished for more free counters. Too many times I have to drop Goyf down or tap out for the Survival and I just leave myself open. Daze wouldn't hurt in that situation. Maybe if the curve got lowered enough (it kind of is getting lower with Drake, Pridemages, etc) that Daze wouldn't be such a tempo loss. I currently have three lists that I am torn between. One abuses Survival with Anger, Rofellos, Tradewind Rider, Quirion Ranger, etc. It is Bant ATS basically. Another is just straight UGw. It is like the lists in the opening posts without red. The third has CB main, Daze, and only 3 Survival. It is essentially just Thresh but with a late game CA engine in Survival. The regular BS and BS-Control run the best. The most consistent with a low curve, easiest on the manabase, etc. I much prefer these two. The ATS build needs some work but it has the most synergy and power once it gets going.

Bant Survival
// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [A] Tropical Island
3 [U] Savannah
1 [U] Tundra
3 [US] Forest (3)
1 [ON] Island (2)

// Creatures
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
1 [US] Gilded Drake
4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
1 [JU] Wonder
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [LRW] Ponder
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 1 [JU] Genesis
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg




Bant Survival - Control
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [A] Tropical Island
2 [U] Tundra
2 [U] Savannah
1 [ON] Island (2)
1 [US] Forest (3)

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [OD] Mystic Enforcer
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
3 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [NE] Daze
2 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [JU] Genesis
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast

Waikiki
05-31-2009, 06:52 AM
I think your better of playing dave price's build then. I played top in the deck at the start of this thread and dropped it because it was too mana intensive together with survival.

@Daze, I don't get it you guys convinced me to let it go and now going back to it yourself. Whats up with that :o

Jak
05-31-2009, 06:54 PM
I think your better of playing dave price's build then. I played top in the deck at the start of this thread and dropped it because it was too mana intensive together with survival.

@Daze, I don't get it you guys convinced me to let it go and now going back to it yourself. Whats up with that :o

It kind of is Dave's build, just with some additions that weren't around back then. I was just throwing out a list that could be played, but I still am not feeling it.

In a mana intensive deck, Daze is really poor in a lot of situations. With a low curve like the one we are moving towards, it could be okay. It helps our game when we don't land a Survival so it has merit.

Waikiki
06-01-2009, 04:27 AM
In a mana intensive deck, Daze is really poor in a lot of situations. With a low curve like the one we are moving towards, it could be okay. It helps our game when we don't land a Survival so it has merit.

My originial build was allready the same as we have now -survival pridemage -1 land -1 ponder +3 daze (and afcorse some tutor target differences)

Daze is good. You can run it. But in the end I did not really miss it. I also choose not to go T2 survival against blue decks anyway. First give them some pressure to hold em busy and then land survival when they are off guard. That way you got more mana open and can start the engine right away. if you started out with T1 hierarch then its a different story and its ok to play survival T2 cause your at least out of daze range. Just look out for spell snares.

Without daze our early game is a bit harder because we need to play around things. But our late game improves because we got no more sucky topdecks.

Jokemon
06-02-2009, 11:53 AM
Hey Fellow Survival Banters
I've recently picked up this deck (thanks to you guys). Like it alot.
Just wanted to say hi and post my Deck List and some small comments on it.

CREATURES (23)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Eternal Witness
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Gilded Drake
1 Wonder
1 Man-o’-War
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Trygon Predator
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

ENCHANTMENTS (4)
4 Survival of the Fittest
SORCERIES (2)
2 Ponder

INSTANTS (12)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
LANDS (19)
2 Forest
2 Island
1 Plains
3 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath

SIDEBOARD
2 Meddling Mage
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Rhox War Monk
3 Krosan Grip
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Genesis

*I go with 4 Sprites (they truly are monsters!)
*I feel that Gilded Drake is superior to SoT, since we dont have a good wat to protect her (and also the Drake is much easier to cast)
*I'm trying out Man-O'-War, he works great with the Drake and also is a bitch for those Dreadnoughts and Tombstalkers.
*I dont really feel a need for Daze, so far I have not wished I had it in the deck.
*Only 19 lands have been enough for me so far, since i got 4 Hierarchs and 6 Brainstorm/Ponder

Hopefully i can contribute to the discussion aswell.

/Jokemon

Waikiki
06-02-2009, 12:08 PM
whats up with basic islands? you need as much G as you can get for survival.

For the rest your list looks great!

@all I'm currently testing out wonder and see how it impacts the game.

Jokemon
06-02-2009, 12:14 PM
I don't have more duals in colour to date. Will go down to 1 Basic Island when i can.
I am going to try out with basics and with more duals and se.

@ Wonder, i like it alot. Legacy got so many creatures today so the ground easily get crowded.

Waikiki
06-02-2009, 12:17 PM
If you have alot of wastelands around I would certainly not go down to 19 lands. I run 20 myself with 2 forest and 1 plains as my basics.

Enigma
06-02-2009, 12:36 PM
Hi guys. I've been testing the anger list for a couple of days and I must say I'm pretty impressed by its power. I'm not totally sure on my manabase, so it's something that still needs work. I also have 1 or 2 slots I'm not sure of. Firstly, I'll show you the list and then the couple of problems I have.

Lands:

4x Windswept Heath
2x Wooded Foothills
2x Flooded Strand

4x Tropical Island
3x Savannah
1x Taiga
1x Tundra

3x Forest

Spells:

4x Force of will
4x Brainstorm
4x Survival of the fittest
4x Swords to plowshares
2-3x Ponder (60 or 61 cards)

Creatures:

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Rhox War Monk
1x Rafiq of the many

3x Spellstutter sprite
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Sower of temptation

1x Anger
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob

1x Trygon Predator
1x Eternal Witness
1-2x Qasali Pridemage
0-1x Winged Coatl
0-1x Flametongue Kavu (Need an extra Taiga)

SB:
Against Aggro
2x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Rhox War Monk
1x Spore Frog
1x Llawan, Cephalid Empress

Against Control\Graveyard
1x Genesis
2x Krosan Grip
2x Tormod's crypt

Against Combo
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Meddling Mage
3x Spell snare

My choices:

Sower over Drake: Counterbalance ruins our day If they setup at 2-3 before we land survival or Qasali. Having a "win con" flying over it seems important to me.

Anger over Wonder: Anger makes survival a 1 or 2 turn clock that must be answered now. It has a good synergy with Trygon and Rafiq.

3x Spellstutter: I personnaly do not like them too much. Our deck is really mana intensive and it's really hard to cover our things with this. It's awsome covering our creatures when we are established with survival on the board, but I find this to be already a good board position I don't need to establish more.

Side: I find aggro is really dominant these days, mostly Zoo, Merfolk and Elves. The Sb is somehow dedicated against these MU:

Spore Frog\Genesis wins against Elves and pretty much all aggro decks without swords and counters.
Jittes and RWM for burnish deck
Llawan against merfolks (I had good tests results with it, mostly because of Noble hierarchs making it possible to land without putting our Islands into play (really good strategy if we succed to do it)) The Cephalid is also good at bouncing Progenitus.

I think I would need more graveyard hate against Ichorid, but I feel the tormod's would give me enough time to assemble Spore Frog + Genesis.

If you guys could help me choose between the 2nd Qasali, the Winged coatl and the Kavu, It will be appreciated. At the moment, I run the Coatl, but It happened twice or thrice that the opponent just killed it before I can block with it.

P-M

Waikiki
06-02-2009, 01:03 PM
I also see Wonder as a 2 turn clock since you can make goyf evasive and together with rafiq it will be a big blow. Also This deck just is a little slowwer then grb survival. Which is not a bad thing imo.

A single wasteland on taiga ruins your haste party while wonder got plenty of islands to feed on.

@ pridemage/coatl etc discussion. That are just the open slots that you can fit for the meta your playing in.

The basics for the deck are:

19-22 land

4 survival
4 stp
4 goyf
1 squee
3 sprite
2 clique
4 bstorm
4 fow


The rest can be filled with:

Rafiq
extra sprite
ponders
Rhox war monks
pridemages
T predator
Wonder
Anger
Genesis
jitte
sower
Drake
Meddling mage

those are simply the flexible slots. Bring some extra cards to your tournament and adjust the slots to what you see ;)

I always got double feelings for jitte. For once as it hits it's super awesome omg jitte is broken.

When you equip and the resp spot removal its always a fuck jitte cost me another turn card. I prefer war monks for that reason and some path to exiles.

Lately ive been running 3 spell snare in my sb for battling eva green type of decks and CB decks (confidant, goyf, CB, pridemage)

GGoober
06-04-2009, 05:11 AM
I'm actually amazed by Ponders, and would never drop below 3. The important part is that it's the ONLY sorcery in our deck, so it's needed to boost Goyf a little. Although to some extent, our Goyf is boosted mostly by Hierarchs unless you're swinging in multiples.

I am however going to consider running 3 Daze, changes I would make will be to drop 3 ponders to 2, or 4 Sprites to 3, and maybe drop a silver bullet target or run 61 cards or run 19 lands. (what has been the optimal testing with lands? 20 is optimal for me although sometimes I draw a little excessive so maybe running 20 lands with 41 non-lands might be good).

Here's a list that I'm working on:
20 Lands
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Taiga
1 Tundra
3 Savannah
4 Tropical Island
2 Forest
1 Plains

20 Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Vendillion Clique
1 Gilded Drake/Sower (I guess meta dependent, if too much CB-Top, then Sower)
1 Anger
1 Quasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Trygon Predator
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Squee

21 non-creatures
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares

I would personally play 1 Clique and 3 Ponders with 61 cards. I am amazed by Clique but she doesn't shine as much unless you're paired up against Loam/ANT/Landstill. Not sure what I would cut. I might just play an anger-less build but anger is too good to cut. Most of the time I would just spam out multiple Noble Hierarchs since they have haste. Rhox War Monk has been a huge lifesaver for me so I'm reluctant to remove him. Quasali Pridemage might go, but he's great against targets at instant speed when you don't have an anger.

I'm definitely more willing to play 3 Daze, since that would give us a countersuite with the strength of Thresh (without CB-Top). Many times, I wished I had more free counters against ANT. The tempo lost from Daze is offset with Hierarchs or at least the capability to search them out with Survival. It's true that this deck needs a lot of mana, but in a Drake build, Daze might be better. Unlike traditional Survival, we don't need as much mana as they do since they are mostly playing with Genesis + Rofellos for insane synergy with various evoke/echo creatures.

Henrik
06-04-2009, 10:18 AM
Another 1st place for me in local tourney this week. Playing the deck is pure fun.

Regarding winged coatl vs pridemage etc:
What's so great about the deck is that it has rather plentiful of slots that could be modified according to meta and personal preference. However, winged coatl sounds like pure bullshit to me! =) Between 4 swords, witness and drake/man-o'war, why would you want to tutor for a 1/1 for 3 mana?! Pridemage on the other hand is awesome

Also, 3 ponders. Wish it could be 4, but 2 is not enough for a consistent game plan.

Along with the ponders, I am totaly pro basic lands. It all works out perfectly, you have 1 cantrip less than most thresh-builds, but also 4 hierarchs. I play this:

4 heath
4 strand

4 tropical
2 savannah
1 tundra

2 forest
1 plains
1 island

To be able to go 1st turn basic island -> ponder is key in matches against wasteland/mana hate, when you can't go forest -> hierarch. Basic island also got me out from a magus of the moon lock (man-o'-war, RAWR).

@Daze/spell snare.
Waikiki, how is spell snare in the SB working for you? I remember you said it was for you sui-matches, right? I've been considering daze in the SB instead, for manatight decks such as tempo-thresh and TA.

A lot of rant today, sorry 'bout that.

Waikiki
06-04-2009, 11:38 AM
I find spell snare being just the thing I need vs rock kinda decks like eva green etc. It counters soo much and they cant play arround it. Also returning the land is a big tempo loss in that matchup. You want to be able to drop survival asap and overrun them.

Enigma
06-04-2009, 12:42 PM
I'm more willing to add ponder than dropping them. Replacing them by adding Daze seems completly the wrong way to go, as Daze adds to the bad topdecks, and Ponder does the opposite. I'm thinking dropping the 1 "Winged, Ftk, Qasali" spot for a 4th ponder and 61 cards. I think it's the deck I feel the most confortable with this number of cards, as I find beeing manaflood quite often.

Jak
06-06-2009, 03:04 PM
I find spell snare being just the thing I need vs rock kinda decks like eva green etc. It counters soo much and they cant play arround it. Also returning the land is a big tempo loss in that matchup. You want to be able to drop survival asap and overrun them.

Is Spell Snare better than Disrupt? Counter their Hymns, Sinkholes, Swords, etc while drawing the card. Great for Tempo. It also is good against combo.

Waikiki
06-06-2009, 03:13 PM
disrupt doesn't stop CB and confidant/goyf, but should be tested to find out.

Jak
06-06-2009, 04:43 PM
disrupt doesn't stop CB and confidant/goyf, but should be tested to find out.

Are you sideoarding in Spell Snares against Thresh? What do you usually take out?

Jak
06-07-2009, 10:12 PM
This is what I have been working with. I was testing the Anger list but I just have been getting better results with this.

4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Savannah
1 Tundra
3 Forest
1 Island

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest

1 Squee
1 Wonder

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gilded Drake
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Eternal Witness
1 Trygon Predator
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

SB
4 Disrupt
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Rhox War Monk
3 Krosan Grip
2 Meddling Mage
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Genesis

Venser is in there because I hated Man o War. It can hit anything, flashes, and can stop Humility from coming into play. Much more versatile. The rest of the list is pretty standard. SB is still a work in progress.

Waikiki
06-08-2009, 04:51 AM
hehe welcome to my list,

Except -1 island +1 plains I find the ability to cast stp better then to keep wonder active.

Also I got clique in the venser slot. But am willing to drop it to 1 lately. I just dont know if venser is the right choice for it.

Waikiki
06-08-2009, 10:15 AM
So I 've done some more testing and started thinking about:

scryb ranger

+ instant speed land saver (tutorable)
+ pro blue makes it block coatl/war monk/faerie stompy
+ Sneaky untap goyf BLOCK
+ It's a faerie for spellstutter sprite

- Its not blue
- not a beatstick
- Do we need to protect our lands alot?

Philipp2293
06-08-2009, 10:28 AM
So I 've done some more testing and started thinking about:

scryb ranger

+ instant speed land saver (tutorable)
+ pro blue makes it block coatl/war monk/faerie stompy
+ Sneaky untap goyf BLOCK
+ It's a faerie for spellstutter sprite

- Its not blue
- not a beatstick
- Do we need to protect our lands alot?

Hm, this looks interesting, I've been running 3 Quirion Rangers in one of my survival builds, and may be testing the Scryb Ranger, but dropping a non basic round 1 and then having a Ranger to protect it seems really valuable.

But then again, surprise untap a goyf and also chumpblock a coatl/RWM/Trygon Predator(!!!) seems quite good.

Enigma
06-08-2009, 11:23 AM
I've jumped into the Wonder-list wagon also and I have to say that the Drake combined with Waterfront Bouncer is completly the nutz.

Waikiki
06-08-2009, 11:26 AM
Point is waterfround bouncer sux most of the time all by itself while drake has no problem trading with tombstalker/goyf. Bouncer is cute but we will win the game anyways. That slots fights for better creatures

Henrik
06-08-2009, 11:29 AM
I've tried scryb ranger to some extent, and I thought it didn't do enough to deserve the spot. I play a rather stable manabase so the land protection is rarely an issue, especially at the stage in the game where you already have mana for an active survival. I'm also not really that scared of coatls and war monks (is there any other deck besides us that play him? =) )

The untap of goyf was useful now and then though.

Nah
06-08-2009, 05:42 PM
The toolbox of SotF consists about 8-10 creatures. I prefer 9.

Having 2 Cliques is not very far from having 1 Clique, I'm also thinking of sth to put into his slot. RWM has been quite good by now.

My ideas: Stonecloaker, 4th Ponder, Magnara of Corondor, Genesis, 2nd Eternal Witness, Path to Exile, Spike Feeder, Jötun Grunt, Werebear, Nimble of Mongoose, Arrogant Wurm,Yavimaya Dryad, Dauntless Escort,Jenara Asura of War, Plaxmanta(?)

I've looked for other good exalted cards and I found only Giltspire Avenger, which with Anger in graveyard, can be...decent. Giving you chance to win the attacking race or at least stall it if it's not too late. Maybe worth testing.

About Genesis.
This card is good versus control only in theory. Some control decks have better CA drawing engine (standstill, etched oracle, life from the loam), so it's rather crucial to be the aggro and race them and not to spend mana on Genesis reccurring a creature which you usually are forced to cast next turn. On the other hand against aggro you can combo it with spore frog, which is actually very efficient (only 4 mana per turn).

My version:
//20 lands:
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
3 Savannah
1 Tundra
1 Taiga
2 Forest
1 Plains
//21 creatures:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Spellstutter Sprite
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Eternal Witness
1 Trygon Predator
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Wonder
1 Rhox War Monk
//19 spells:
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

Waikiki
06-08-2009, 05:45 PM
Pretty standard list only you run a taiga but yet I do not see anger.

Well a few post back I showwed the basic list and then the open slots to fit for your meta ;)

Jak
06-08-2009, 07:19 PM
About Genesis.
This card is good versus control only in theory. Some control decks have better CA drawing engine (standstill, etched oracle, life from the loam), so it's rather crucial to be the aggro and race them and not to spend mana on Genesis reccurring a creature which you usually are forced to cast next turn. On the other hand against aggro you can combo it with spore frog, which is actually very efficient (only 4 mana per turn).

I think you are vastly underestimating Genesis. It essentially turns all non Swords to Plowshares removal off. It is'nt just about creating CA but being able to recover fast from a Wrath and to be able to operate without Survival since it will most likely not resolve against Landstill. It is amazing versus control. Do not underestimate it. This deck just can not go aggro fast enough through disruption so not having a way to keep the threats coming is the way to lose.

The only additional Exalted creature I would run is more Qasali. There really doesn't need to be more but at least he has a useful ability.

Henrik
06-09-2009, 03:28 AM
I am a little bit intrigued with spore frog actually. I know he has been used in genesis decks forever, perhaps he could be t h e sideboardanswer to aggro and only taking 2 slots? 1 genesis and 1 spore frog could be boarded in against various decks such as goblins, merfolk, zoo, whatnot, and genesis could be boarded alone against decks such as landstill and the rock.

I am just thinking aloud really. What I know is, I am not very happy with my sideboard as it is now anyway.


EDIT: Not a good idea afterall. A lot of those decks bring in graveyard hate against us without even having seen spore frog g1. The sideboard of this deck keep taunting me...

Waikiki
06-09-2009, 10:30 AM
spore frog is for the ichorid and progenitus decks Its useless vs aggro except elves.

Jokemon
06-09-2009, 07:11 PM
Though i feel that Spore Frog is a bit to slow vs. Ichorid (since they go off round 2-3 on a regulary basis).
Don't think it's worthwhile to use spore Frog imo

ebbitten
06-09-2009, 10:45 PM
Spore frog is actually quite good against ichorid if you don't have to tutor it up. It has a self sacrifice ability that will remove their bridges and stall them for a turn. Its pretty close to mogg fanatic which is recognized as good against ichorid.

Michael Keller
06-09-2009, 11:02 PM
Spore frog is actually quite good against ichorid if you don't have to tutor it up. It has a self sacrifice ability that will remove their bridges and stall them for a turn. Its pretty close to mogg fanatic which is recognized as good against ichorid.

Spre Frog is infinitely better than Mogg Fanatic against Ichorid. The whole point of Ichorid is to:

1.) Get Bridge from Below(s) in the yard.
2.) Flashback to get a lot of tokens.
3.) Smash face.

Spore Frog, well:

1.) Removes the Bridges by sacrifice.
2.) Prevents a lot of tokens from coming into play.
3.) Stalls a potentially lethal attack.

Both are good, but fog against Ichorid is quite good.

Windux
06-13-2009, 05:49 PM
// Lands
1 [P2] Plains (1)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [R] Savannah
1 [R] Tundra
2 [ALA] Forest (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
4 [CNF] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [10E] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
1 [JU] Wonder
1 [VI] Quirion Ranger
1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk

// Spells
3 [LRW] Ponder
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [PY] Spore Frog
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [JU] Genesis


Thats my list so far.
i don't like Witness mainboard. Ok, you Survival on Witness, when it gets destroyed, but instead I would Survival Wonder and Goyf/Rafiq and just play it and beat.
Quirion Ranger helps to make SotF much more powerful.
With 1 land and 1 Hierarch you still can manage to win. He is awesome against screw, LD and it untaps your creatures!
Just try it.

GGoober
06-14-2009, 07:26 AM
I'm expecting a meta of combo and Dredge tomorrow for my meta. It's funny how I haven't checked the forums in awhile and I've been thinking of choices against Dredge. I thought about Spore Frog, which IMO is too good. I'll put Spore Frog + Genesis in the board against Pox + Progenitus + Ichorid + Goblins. I'm wondering if I should also go with 3 Burrenton Forge Tender in the SB in complement against Ichorid and Zoo and Goblins. This might be my sideboard. Regardless, the SB is going to change after I look around, but here's my list that I will play today.


Bant Survival:
19 Lands
2 Forest
1 Taiga
1 Tundra
3 Savannah
4 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath

Creatures: 20
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Spellstutter Sprite
1 Quasali Pridemage
1 Gilded Drake
1 Eternal Witness
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Tradewind Rider
1 Trygon Predator
1 Anger
1 Squee

Permission: 11
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze

Card Advantage: 10
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

Sideboard:
1 Spore Frog
2 Burrenton Forge Tender
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Meddling Mage
1 Quasali Pridemage
1 Genesis
1 Trygon Predator
1 Rhox War Monk
3 Krosan Grip
2 Mind Harness (against aggro-loam, Coatl, vore, goyf, crushers)

What I have in mind for the SB is variable but I think 2 Burrenton Forge Tender is good in a metagame of Ichorid + Aggro-Loam + Goblins. Pridemage + BFT + Spore Frog should all stop Ichorid and you can Genesis lock out Dredge + Goblins + Elves. Mind Harness is MVP against Coatl + Loam decks and I'm not expecting Goyf Sligh or Burn so I will only have 2 RWM most post board. Expecting CB and dreadstill so Pridemage + 2nd Predator goes in with 3 Grips (possibly Enchantress). My metagame changes frequently although recently, we're seeing an influx of Dredge + ANT combo due to the lack of blue played in my metagame. Zoo is sometimes a problem because they're so fast.

Something that I really hate in this deck is the plentiness of 1 toughness spells. Fire/ICe really sucks. Report to follow up.

Waikiki
06-14-2009, 07:27 AM
Why do you chose teeg over meddling mage ?

Blitzbold
06-14-2009, 09:15 AM
Teeg is usually better in those MU's where you want Meddling Mage as Teeg can shut down multiple problematic cards at once while Mage only denies one of them. For example, agains Landstill you don't want them to resolve Wrath, Humility or EE - or any combination thereof.

EDIT
@crz87: It seems that your meta contains next to no combo, am I right? Or are you just crossing your fingers so that you won't get paired against it? :D

Wargoos
06-14-2009, 04:57 PM
If we go Spore Frog, why don't simply run instead Children of Korlis?
It's another out to Combo.

Nihil Credo
06-14-2009, 05:35 PM
Children of Korlis doesn't save you from a lethal attack.

Arsenal
06-14-2009, 07:56 PM
Post-M10, does this deck lose anything? Becuase I'm running Bant Aggro in Standard, I really want to use my Hierarchs in a Legacy deck and this one seemed like the most fun; Survival anything is sweetsauce.

Wargoos
06-14-2009, 08:10 PM
@ NC: Allright, that's a good point...
Cards get so much worse when people tell me how they actually work...

@ Arsenal: Actually not. Qasali Pridemage gets weakened a bit, but it's not like he was there for combat tricks only.

Jak
06-17-2009, 02:10 AM
Finally, after waiting what felt like years, I got my cards. Stupid UPS and needing to be 21 years old to sign for the package. Anyway, I hope to get testing soon.

Qasali Pridemage is still a house. Him killing a creature and then blowing up an artifact/enchantment hardly happened enough to even consider trimming his numbers down. He can still fog for a turn against a Goyf and blow up something so don't worry about it.

Also, crz87, tell me how the Dazes are working out. As I said, I wanted some additional counters as well, but I have just added Disrupts to the board for that. I still need to thoroughly test Daze.

Waikiki
06-17-2009, 04:11 AM
This is my up to date list as I'm running it right now.


// Lands
4 [A] Tropical Island
3 [B] Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [US] Forest (4)
1 [A] Tundra
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [US] Plains (3)

// Creatures
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
4 [CNF] Noble Hierarch
1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
1 [US] Gilded Drake
1 [JU] Wonder
1 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 1 [JU] Genesis
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [PY] Spore Frog
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast

As you can see I went down to 19 land and added a 3rd ponder. I found myself getting flooded a little too often.

Also I'm testing out glen elendra out as a mb slot. Can't say much about it. If you dont like it then you can switch back to the 2nd clique or 2nd pridemage.

I only play 1 clique because I feel its best at fightning control decks which aren't that much around in my meta.

Overal im quite satisfied with this list! @SB. I just bring a binder with alot of cards and I make a sb at the spot to what I think will be showwing up.

Jak can you add it to the openingspost as my list.

Black Mass
06-17-2009, 04:58 AM
glen elendra seems way to expansive to be effective. We do not create a whole lot of mana like other survival builds can with Rofellos, thus expensive cards should be affecting the board the minute they come in to play. Glen elendra takes 5 mana to be safe. Mostly I get a hard time getting 4 mana together.
Same goes for daze actually. We give up a turn by returning an island. Don't think I'm up to that, especially in the early game. There I like to hava mana in play, not in my hand.

GGoober
06-17-2009, 12:28 PM
So here's my tournament report on Saturday. We had a total of 14 players.

Jeff - UGR Coatl Gro
Drew - Imperial Painter
Lil' Chris - White Weenies
Joey - RGw Zoo
Ted - Deadguy (Nyxathid)
Brian - Geddon Stax
Chris - Nassif's Countertop
Will - White Weenie
??? - Black Disruption
Dan - RGw Zoo
David - Aggro Loam
Chris Zhou (me) - Survival Bant


Here's my list.

Bant Survival:
19 Lands
2 Forest
1 Taiga
1 Tundra
3 Savannah
4 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath

Creatures: 20
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Spellstutter Sprite
1 Quasali Pridemage
1 Gilded Drake
1 Eternal Witness
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Tradewind Rider
1 Trygon Predator
1 Anger
1 Squee

Permission: 11
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze

Card Advantage: 10
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

Sideboard:
2 Meddling Mage
1 Sower of Temptation
2 Spell Snare
2 Quasali Pridemage
1 Genesis
1 Trygon Predator
1 Rhox War Monk
3 Krosan Grip
2 Mind Harness (against aggro-loam, Coatl, vore, goyf, crushers)

Match 1 - Joey with RGw Zoo
Game 1: He led with an aggressive T1 Kird Ape and a couple of burn but a Vendillion Clique revealed that he had been drawing lands (3 lands in hand). I swing in with 5/3 double exalted Clique and beat for a turn before she was burnt down. He landed Pridmage and appliyed more beats from Exalted Kird Ape. I followed up with my own Pridemage which was even more Exalted from the Hierarchs (a 5/5). We both never drew Goyfs and I won the first game through Exalted beatdown while Swording his key creatures and countering burns with Sprites. Sprite is MVP against Zoo, stopping bolts + swords while allowing you to play yours.

Game 2: SB: -1 Pridemage, -1 Trygon, -1 Vendilion Clique, -1 Tradewind Rider, -1 Drake +2 Spell Snare, +2 Mind Harness, +1 Rhox War Monk.
He had no idea I was playing Survival but I assumed he knew I was playing it. I kept a fishy hand of 3 Survival, 1 Hierarch, 1 Sprite, 1 Brainstorm 1 Land. I drew a land and played out Sprite then Survival pitching Sprite to get the engine going. Joey says "That's not Bant!" I replied, "It is, Legacy Bant :P". The game ended shortly when I got double RWM (1 sideboarded) out and beat him while Lifelinking 10 life a turn. I think he was laughing at the fact I got multiple hasty goyfs out as well in one turn.
2-0-0




Match 2 - Ted with Deadguy
Game 1: I led with Noble Hierarch and kept a Thresh-ish hand with no Survival and a Brainstorm and land-heavy hand. I knew he was playing Deadguy and the matchup is not pretty with 4 Wastes, 4 Sinkholes, 4 Vindicates.

He led with Turn 1 Thoughtseize grabbing FOW and T2 Nantuko Shade. I took some damamge from Shade for the couple of turn while I dropped Sprite and countered another Seize while applying pressure and beating. He gets down a Tombstalker eventually while I upload Survival and EOT tutored out:
Squee/Anger/TW-Rider and played out more Noble Hierarch. TW-Rider is a house against Deadguy/Eva, saving your permanents from Vindcate while creating huge tempo losses. He tried swinging in with 2 Nyxathid, Tombstalker and Shade while I chumped Shade with E Witness, blocked Nyxathid with Goyfs and bounced Tombstalker. I proceed to beatdown with 3 Goyfs.

Game 2: SB: +2 Spell Snare + 1 Genesis - 1 Pridemage - 1 Clique -1 Trygon Predator. He opened with T1 Pithing Needle. I had FOW + Brainstorm + Hierarch + Daze and I decided not to FOW since I will end up risking a very weak hand if I lost Brainstorm. I figured I can play without Survival since this deck functions good even without Survival but I did hit myself in the head for boarding out all my artifact/enchantment destruction since I figured Deadguy doesn't run either. Forgot about Needle.
He played a Hyppie which got Dazed. The game dragged on really slow and I landed a 4/5 Goyf that was proceeding to beat. He landed a Tombstalker and we had stallmates (no Hierarch). I was seriously contemplating on playing Survival and FOWing it to make Goyf 5/6 but decided not to give myself a possible 3 for 1 if he killed Goyf. So the game dragged on and got scary when he landed Nyxathid (6/6) and I played out another Goyf. The game never really got anywhere because we were both stalling but because Game 1 took too long, we had to finish up in 5 rounds. He could not beat past my defense of 1 Spellstutter Sprite, 2 Goyfs (he couldn't swing in with Tombstalker because he was at 3 life and would die when I swing back in).
4-0-0

Match 3 - Drawed with Dan with RGw Zoo into Top4



Match 4 - Dan with RGw Zoo
Had to play against Zoo again, but to be honest, I am confident with the matchup. Didn't turn out to be so. All I can say is Grim Lavamancer is fucking MVP.
Game 1: He drops a much more aggressive hand than Joey with Kird Ape + Nacatl + Bolt + Helix. I dazed a Thoctar and landed Goyf and Sworded creatures while stabilizing. He plays out Grim Lavamancer and proceeds to shrink Goyf while shocking me in the face. I eventually lost when I lost the tempo race and didn't draw Survival or any useful spells.

Game 2: same board plan as with Joey. Tradewind Rider is too slow and pointless against zoo while Drake is not as good since you can only get 5/4 Thoctars/Goyfs? Mind Harness does the same as Drake but better since it gets EVERY creature in their deck.
I kept an alright hand, 2 lands and a Brainstorm and 3 Goyfs. I never drew into a 3rd land in ages and made the game a ton more slowly than I could have played out. 3 Goyfs were actually crappy since his lavamancer was seriously putting them at 2/3 and within all his burn range. I never drew a Fetchland until 10 turns later and by then I played out Survival. He had pridemage in play but never sacced to kill Survival. I made sure I always had a creature to discard and grab EWitness just in case he destroys it. His mistake was underlooking Survival (I guess he was trying to be more aggressive and apply pressure) but I tutored out RWM for me to stabilize and multiple Goyfs. Although he did a great job in shrinking Goyfs.

Game 3: I'm confident with Zoo since RWM >>>> Zoo. I kept a really good hand against Zoo. I had Sprites + Spell Snare + Brainstorm + Hierarch + Goyf + Survival. I got a good early game by tempoing out with Sprite on Nacatl and dropping Survival. He learns his lessons and pridemages me and in response I tutored out Squee/Anger/EWitness to recur back my engine. I was really happy at this point figuring I had the game now with enough card advantage, but he dropped the surprise Crypt on his second mainphase and busted my Survival and all my tutored targest. Great, sad face. Next turn, I dropped a Goyf safe from burn range. He plays out Grim Lavamancer and a Goyf to stall. I played Mind Harness and he is staring down with 1 Grim Lavamancer against my field of two 4/5 Goyfs and a Sprite. Let me tell you this, to all Zoo players, Grim Lavamancer is freaking MVP. As I swung in with the 2 Goyfs, he Helixed my Goyf and while the spell is on the stack, removed 2 cards and shrunk my Goyfs to 2/3s (once again, I had no fetchlands in the yard despite playing 8 of them, so my goyfs were not standard 3/4).
He kills off my Goyf, forcing me to keep the mind harnessed one. That's fine with me. His board was empty the next couple of turns while I paid for Mind Harness upkeep (up to 5. I had an EWitness in hand to return Mind Harness again if I decided to change my targets by not paying the upkeep cost). Goyf never grew past 2/3. He got up to a 3/4 but instead of dealing with it, he proceeds to shock me 3 times with Lavamancer and finishing off with a barely lethal Fireblast. It was an amazing play, and really made me underestimate Lavamancer. I used to play Zoo and people were debating about him. He sure dies to everything, but if he doesn't, he does so much for the mana you invested in him. I swear that Dan plays Zoo without giving a thought to his Goyfs. He just shrinks his yard like there's no tomorrow.



To be honest, Survival Bant should not have lost to Zoo. Mind Harness in paper seems subpar but it really is a great card against Zoo and Aggro Loam. You get to steal all their creatures in Zoo (Thoctar, Wild Nacatl, Apes, Goyfs) and the fattest creatures in aggro-loam (crusher, vore, goyfs). Daze were in fact very good for me. The tempo lost is really not a problem since this deck isn't traditional survival i.e. it does not need insane amounts of mana off Rofellos to play out Evoke + Genesis. Daze really shines in the early games and together with Sprites, it's pretty disruptive. In addition, this deck has a hyrbid base of Thresh and Survival. You don't need mana in the early game as you're the control player, but you need to hit mana in the late game to play out multiple Goyfs. The advantage of Daze in the anger build is that you can recuperate the tempo lost from hasty Hierarchs. Daze + Hierarch is also much better than Daze in traditional Thresh builds. There were testing instances where Daze on Sinkhole/Vindicate is a hardcounter against Sinkhole/Vindicate.

I just feel uncomfortable playing 4 free counterspells. 7 has always been the magical number for me in Thresh builds, so I'm glad to have that. Too bad my games were mostly Zoo related, but I can tell you that RWM is much better in this list than Finks or Hierarch since you have anger and exalted, making him gain much more life throughout the whole game. Also, I pitched him EOT when I had FOW just in case I needed to counter a spell, so that backup play EOT to counter is another good play to maximize your options before you decide to drop him on your turn. The only downside is that he's blue (a goodside he pitches to FOW) but he dies to red blasts. I am trying to play 3 Ponders again, but I find that 3 Daze has been showing well for the deck. I'm pretty sure that the 3 Daze would make a huge difference against combo since any Survival decks still run into the problem on playing Survival T2 and locking ANT out T3 with Mage. T3 lockout is too slow even with FOW protection since they have Chant + Duress. Having 7 instead of 4 counterspell is key.

Overall, I liked Drake much more than Sower although I had 1 Sower side against Eva/Deadguy. To be perfectly honest, Tradewind Ride will see play in this deck. He has synergy with the anger build, and most importantly, this deck is really a legacy Bant Exalted deck. The exalted playstyle allows you to fully utilize Tradewind Rider, turning Noble Hierarchs mana-tapping ability for the early game into isochron-scepter-boomerangs in the late game. You don't need to be cute playing Drake + Tradewind Rider. Either piece is enough to lock out or gain a huge advantage from the opponent. Tradewind Rider is really good because it bounces ANY permanent, and it has a non-boltable body and flies. He dodges CB well and Deeds to some extent and he can bounce up CB and Dreandoughts and anything. I usually think of him as the 2nd pridemage/trygon in other bant Survival build. I only run 1 Pridemage since I prefer Trygon (there's enough exalted in the deck) but I need Pridemage for a non-combat instant-speed disenchant. TW-Rider fulfills that disenchant role as well, and he's a HUGE tempo card if you resolve him. You can block and bounce, and that's really annoying for the opponent.

I liked the 2 Spell Snares in the SB and might up it to 3. Mind Harness is MVP in a meta full of Aggro Loam + Zoo. Although Burrenton Forge Tender (BFT) is good against Gobs and Ichorid. These are definitely the SB choices to consider. This deck is so much fun to play and is highly customizable. I love the Dazes and there's still more tweaking to find a list that suits me best. Rafiq is highly recommended. Many games, I wished I had a Rafiq to finish the game. however, stupid T2 has made him into a $15 card.

Waikiki
06-17-2009, 12:48 PM
Great your enjoying the deck as much as I do. Nice tournament report! keep up the good work.

Jak
06-18-2009, 11:28 AM
Sweet report and I love the Daze list. The thing I love about Daze here is it gives us more protection to resolve Survival, makes combo much much easier, and it doesn't hurt us if we go turn one Hierarch. I'm trying to work them in, but I am hesitant to go below 20 lands.

Waikiki
06-19-2009, 06:28 AM
Still dont understand you guys made me drop daze and now want to add it again. I really did not miss it yet. Sure you can protect survival. but you lost another turn. Simply play around opponents daze and if they Fow they lost 2 cards for 1 survival. your can easily win without survival.

Black Mass
06-19-2009, 08:13 AM
I agree, I think 8 counterspells is more than enoug, if I would add anything, it would be more creatures for my survival because I have plenty of cases where I have survival in play, but no creatures to tutor with.

Could be my bad luck streak too...

DireLemming
06-19-2009, 09:08 AM
I agree, I think 8 counterspells is more than enoug, if I would add anything, it would be more creatures for my survival because I have plenty of cases where I have survival in play, but no creatures to tutor with.
That's one of the reasons I am running 2x Elvish Spirit Guide (-1 land, -1 creature). The other reasons being, obviously acceleration plus it gives you a strategic & psychological advantage as you can flash your flashers or pay for Daze seemingly out of nowhere and screw up their math.

Black Mass
06-19-2009, 09:53 AM
Hmm, never thought of that, sounds interesting actually.

About Rhox War Monk I have to reluctantly say I'm starting to fall in love. He saved my ass twice yesterday against goblins and against sligh. Even without haste this guy is a house. I'm still in favour of using Kitchen Finks, but I'm appreciating him.

Goblin Snowman
06-19-2009, 10:54 AM
Hey everyone. I've been running a varient on Bant Survival, and have been testing quite a bit with good results. Here's my current list;

4x Tropical Island
3x Savannah
3x Tundra
4x Windswept Heath
2x Flooded Strand
1x Plains
1x Forest

4x Brainstorm
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Aether Vial
3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Meddling Mage
4x Spellstutter Sprite
1x Qasali Pridemage
3x Rhox War Monk
3x Oriss, Samite Guardian
1x Sower of Tempatoin
1x Genesis
1x Wonder
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
4x Force of Will

SB (Currently, I'm not in love with it right now)
3x Meddling Mage
3x Gaddok Teeg
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Rhox War Monk
3x Krosan Grip
1x Qasali Pridemage
3x Tormod's Crypt

On to explaining card choices.

Aether Vial is a card that has always been love/hate with people when it comes to Survival. I would never run this deck without it, as it enables very solid plays, and works well as you can use it the end of their turn, or during their attack phase. It also allows me to assemble specific creatures under a Counterbalance or Standstill. I would advise you to attempt to find room for it in testing, and see how it works for you.

Oriss, Samite Guardian is certainly not a mainstream choice. Oriss is not the focus of the deck. It's there for an autowin (when combined with 3 mana and a Genesis) against Aggro Loam, Goblins (well, not a total win, but Oriss protects against Incinerators already), and a variety of decks that don't expect a chant-lock. If I use it game one, it's generally the first thing boarded out. I chose Meddling Mage over Teeg in the maindeck as Meddling Mage on Swords allows you to lock out a much wider range of decks.

I don't run Daze because I don't see this as an aggressive enough deck to merit it. I've tried it quite a few times, and each time, I was generally more pissed off about losing a hand drop than I was about what would happen if their spell resolved (in the early game...as that's the only time Daze is going to be useful). I'm fine with Force of Will and Spellstutter Sprite as my counter package, and they haven't let me down yet.

On to the board;
I think most of it's not contested. The only area where I'm hesitant are on the Crypts. I already have Meddling Mages, Teegs, and a STP to board against Ichorid, and while I could just not board in Teegs (which might be the right call), they always feel like there's something else that could be there. I've tried Blue Blasts, some more one ofs, but nothing seems to come to mind. Thoughts?

GGoober
06-19-2009, 11:50 AM
@Wak: I used to play Daze as well (refer to the very first arguments in the thread, and I got swayed to Sprites). The issue here is that Sprite is mainly used to counter removal (bolts/StP) and occasionally Brainstorm and Top, which you risk losing it via StP. Good players can put the CiP trigger on stack and kill it, making you lose a potential counter, although that means she baits a removal. Sprite is really good in the deck because you can tutor her up anytime and pitch her to FOW. She shines in the mid-game, much more than Daze. However, I feel that any Thresh-ish deck really needs Daze. The tempo loss isn't great for this deck because if you drop HIerarch game1, you will still have mana for T2 Survival.

Although sometimes I'm very tempted to replace Dazes with 3 Meddling Mage MD to shut off a potential card against other decks, and to give a much better T1 against ANT.

@Elvish Spirit Guide: I'm always a fan of her in ANY Survival build. I played Elf Survival for 2 months, and she's always the MVP. You can drop your land count down and run 2-3 of her. The reasons why she's good possibly in this deck (more testing needed).
-Instead of a land, she can pitch to Survival late game, being a more valuable topdeck
-She can provide mana against Daze, and she can provide mana to play a Hierarch under moon effects.
-She allows for more tutoring on a single turn when you're getting Survival pieces.
The only problem with her inclusion in this deck is that the deck is so tight on space (at least the anger builds).


I'm not sure about Vial in this deck since the only creatures that are worth vialing out would be Goyf + Sprite i.e. setting at 2. We do not run enough creatures to make this worthwhile. Maybe in a build with heavy 2cc creatures, this can be considered, but I would rather have a more focused build on Survival and Counterspells. You shouldn't fear control decks anyway because every piece you resolve is going to hurt.

Jak
06-19-2009, 12:57 PM
@Daze
Yes, the deck can easily win without Survival, but Daze helps that too. I haven't really been hurt by the tempo loss but I haven't really been able to test it well enough.

@Not enough creatures
I really haven't had this problem. I mean, this deck does run 18 (non Daze list with 2 Ponder) non-land, non-creature cards but 6 of those are cantrips that get you to your creatures.

@Goblin Snowman
I like the list. I am not sure about Oriss since it looks really hard to get together. The only way you would ever set it up is when you have Survival in play so why not just get more Goyfs and War Monks and call it gg? I definitely want to try Vial since flash is one of the best things about the deck and adding it to Goyfs would be awesome.

Goblin Snowman
06-19-2009, 06:51 PM
@Daze
@Goblin Snowman
I like the list. I am not sure about Oriss since it looks really hard to get together. The only way you would ever set it up is when you have Survival in play so why not just get more Goyfs and War Monks and call it gg? I definitely want to try Vial since flash is one of the best things about the deck and adding it to Goyfs would be awesome.

I know. I've had the same thoughts about the card, but it gets around situations where you have no right to win frequently, and pitches to Survival anyway (which is fairly relevant...). If I were to cut them, I think I would add in the 4th War Monk (who is a porn star) and either a Gaddok Teeg, Loaming Shaman, or 4th Swords, going to 60 cards.

The reason Oriss is in there is because it wins you games where you have no other options. At anytime you get too far behind in the game where you feel like another Goyf or RWM isn't going to matter, against something like Ichorid, you can choose to just end the game and win right there. I win (very roughly) about 1/4 of my games based off 3 cards in my MD. So far, I'm going to keep testing with and without them.

Jak
06-21-2009, 04:37 AM
I know. I've had the same thoughts about the card, but it gets around situations where you have no right to win frequently, and pitches to Survival anyway (which is fairly relevant...). If I were to cut them, I think I would add in the 4th War Monk (who is a porn star) and either a Gaddok Teeg, Loaming Shaman, or 4th Swords, going to 60 cards.

The reason Oriss is in there is because it wins you games where you have no other options. At anytime you get too far behind in the game where you feel like another Goyf or RWM isn't going to matter, against something like Ichorid, you can choose to just end the game and win right there. I win (very roughly) about 1/4 of my games based off 3 cards in my MD. So far, I'm going to keep testing with and without them.

This is true, but maybe if those 3 Oriss were something else like the 4th Sword or something else you wouldn't get in those situations. You seem to have an amazing aggro game with 3 War Monks and Vials that a clunky, instant win combo doesn't seem all that great especially if you need a card in play, a card in the GY and another in hand. I haven't had time to test but I'll certainly try because I am just theorizing.

nateo
06-22-2009, 10:47 PM
Has anyone considered adding in a single Knight of the reliquary as well as a riptide laboratory. The Knight would let you tutor for the lab and it'd give you the reusable power of both the Vendilion cliques as well as sprites similar to extended Fairies.

GGoober
06-23-2009, 12:48 AM
To be honest, this deck isn't Faeries, i.e. the synergy helps a little, but mostly Sprites just counter Brainstorm/Tops/Spell snares/StP, and occasionally Bob/Goyfs. This deck doesn't seek to lock someone out. It just seeks to counter a few key spells, resolve survival and go for the beats. I think that Faeries tricks are really sweet with a monoU faerie which I'll eventually build and test it out. I really like Sprite.

Maybe a UGw Faerie/Goyf build with Knight can suffice, but I think Knight is a waste of cardslot in this deck, whose manabase is already unstable (in anger builds). Unlike ITF/Eternal Garden, there's no other utility lands that's worthwhile. The colorless from Riptide screws the deck more than it can help since it's a heavy-mana deck in the first place thanks to survival, so you can't pull off Wizard tricks with Lab as well as a designed deck could. I am seriously considering Rofellos in the deck, together with Genesis MD. I'm tweaking on a Bant Survival list a little closer to traditional survival, but the lack of Shriekmaws and Cabal Therapy is a huge drawback. My first original list (see page 1, was a 4c list with Bob and Shriekmaw). I'm working on UGb Survival, which seems like a cool idea since Shriekmaw recursion is sometimes greater than StP in a designed Survival deck, but that's for another thread, which I'll post when it's more optimized.

Goblin Snowman
06-23-2009, 10:58 AM
I'm tweaking on a Bant Survival list a little closer to traditional survival, but the lack of Shriekmaws and Cabal Therapy is a huge drawback. My first original list (see page 1, was a 4c list with Bob and Shriekmaw). I'm working on UGb Survival, which seems like a cool idea since Shriekmaw recursion is sometimes greater than StP in a designed Survival deck, but that's for another thread, which I'll post when it's more optimized.

Let me know how it goes, as I'm interested in how you do (working on a similar concept right now. When/If you get a thread up for it I'll post my list).

KoR doesn't seem to fit well in this deck. Since Survival is such a mana-whore, having any colorless lands could easily bone you. I'm "ok" with where my mana base is right now, but I'm still running 18 colored sources with 4 Hierarch, Vial, and Brainstorm. Cutting any colored sources seems like a bad call to me.

Waikiki
06-29-2009, 06:41 AM
I've done major testing in the past time and results are really awesome. Also some major changes to the deck have been made. cutting alot of cards.

Will do some more testing before posting the list!

lorddotm
07-03-2009, 07:01 PM
This is true, but maybe if those 3 Oriss were something else like the 4th Sword or something else you wouldn't get in those situations. You seem to have an amazing aggro game with 3 War Monks and Vials that a clunky, instant win combo doesn't seem all that great especially if you need a card in play, a card in the GY and another in hand. I haven't had time to test but I'll certainly try because I am just theorizing.

Considering the deck runs Survival, it really doesn't seem too rough getting Genesis in the yard, and getting two other creatures, one on the board, and one in you hand. You could probably just do it all in one turn and just one... seems good to me.

Jak
07-04-2009, 12:06 AM
Considering the deck runs Survival, it really doesn't seem too rough getting Genesis in the yard, and getting two other creatures, one on the board, and one in you hand. You could probably just do it all in one turn and just one... seems good to me.

Yes, you could... I definitely see the merits of it, but how is running 3 Oriss better than 1 Spore Frog? I could see the Oriss lock helping versus combo, but I am not really worried about that since I would much rather just keep tutoring for Faeries if I have an active Survival against storm. Spore Frog is cheaper to play, easier to cast, and I don't need to devote too many slots to it.

mossivo1986
07-04-2009, 01:17 AM
Jak and Weik:

I just wanted to say that if I could play something other then UWb Wish Still this would be the deck. Thank you for evolving this archtype. It's so much fun to play!

Jak
07-04-2009, 01:38 AM
Jak and Weik:

I just wanted to say that if I could play something other then UWb Wish Still this would be the deck. Thank you for evolving this archtype. It's so much fun to play!

Sweet! I am glad we could get people interested.

Waikiki
07-04-2009, 03:41 AM
Thnx Mossivo, really appriciated

One of the main reasons I love about the deck is that it's so easily tuneable for a specific meta.

@ oriss discussion. Why turn your deck into a more survival dependant deck where the replacements do well without any survival or genesis in the yard?

I will post my newest list after I played it the 5th.

Windux
07-06-2009, 05:48 AM
Yesterday I played this deck to a 5-0-1 record at the monthly Iserlohn tournament, making the 2nd place.
I played this list:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [P2] Plains (1)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [R] Tropical Island
3 [R] Savannah
1 [R] Tundra
2 [ALA] Forest (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [A] Taiga

// Creatures
4 [CNF] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [10E] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
1 [JU] Wonder
1 [VI] Quirion Ranger
1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
1 [JU] Anger

// Spells
3 [LRW] Ponder
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [PY] Spore Frog
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB. 2 [SHM] Firespout (against Elves, merfolk, Goblins)
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [JU] Genesis


I tested Anger instead of Rafiq for the following reason:
The Survival and play Rafiq costs you 1GGWU (cc5).
To Survival Anger and another Goyf costs you 1GGG (cc4, only monocolor).
Also Rafiq can get bolted easy.
If you don't have Survival, Rafiq is better of course, but I never liked him very much.
Anyway, in this tournament Anger wasn't good at all. I would recommend to NOT play it ever. Instead, I would add 1 Rhox War Monk or something like Loxodon Hierarch, Wickerbough Elder or Witness (at least in the sideboard for the control matchup). Some fattie with an ability.
In our meta, I often run into lands, which I want to destroy (academy Ruins, Maze of Ith, Glacial Chasm, Dust Bowl). Is there a card I could use? Except Trinket Mage+Pithing Needle in the sideboard.

I just drew the Mirror (-4 Hierarchs, + 4 Vials, - Force, + Daze like he said to me). I don't want to say I could have won this game, it was 50/50 and he played the deck very well.

I won against:
AggroLoam 2-0(Game 1 with only 1 Land and Hierarch, survivaling Quirion Ranger ftw)
UWb Landstill 2-1 (Wonder discard after Humility dropped against Factorys ftw)
Ichorid 2-0(Game 1 2 Goyfs + Hierarch makes it. Game 2 Spore Frog+Genesis)
AggroRock 2-1 (Confi, Vindicate, Swords, Witness, Deed, Hymn, Thoughseize)
and I think Aggro Bant (NQG like)

This deck is such a powerhouse. I would recommend to cut the creatures, which are only good with survival to the minimum.
Squee and Wonder are just fine. Quirion Ranger just won me in the two tournaments at IS (both T8) so much games. Helping against screw, untapping my Goyfs in the war (when I had Exalted) etc. Test him!
Im not that happy with Vendillion Clique. I rarely want to play him early at the drawstep of my opponent. Rather he gets pitched to Force or Survival.
I don't know if Teferi could be a good choice. Early he is just as bad as Clique is for me. But Lategame Clique CAN hit a good card (if its not an instant). Teferi just makes your dudes better and your opponent can't counter your dudes (Sprites become better).

Waikiki
07-06-2009, 06:24 AM
Congrats on your finish and nice to see your liking the deck.
I agree on anger and have cut him a long time ago. For the fact you want to stop lands I would suggest running 2/3 needle in the side and maybe a trinket mage. Altho I find trinketmage a wasted slot since ponder/bstorm can easily find one themselves.

Also needle is great at stopping vial,deed,top,elspeth etc etc.

My current sb looks like this:

SB: 1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [TO] Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle

I play 2 monks maindeck.

May I ask how your experience about the spellstutter sprites is. I find them rather slow in my aggro and rock dominated meta and Have chosen to drop them to 1/2 and add a kira + dazes back into the deck.

Windux
07-06-2009, 08:32 AM
I do like them.
I started playing them in NQS.
The option to tutor a Force-Pitch is really great. Also the Flasheffect adds combattricks.
In an Aggrometa, Stutter should shine...Counter Nactal, Kird Ape und Chumpblock next turn is much better, than Daze can ever be.

Waikiki
07-06-2009, 08:36 AM
problem is nactal/ape come online T1 and stutter T2 where I need to be casting a blocker to stop the beatings. So stutter comes online alot later to be run as a 4off. At least thats how I experience it. Daze can slow them down while casting your goyf/monk or survival. Also it can serve as protection landing survival and ending outtapped.

Yet still testing arround with alot of configurations

Edit.

@ windux If you like quirion ranger so much have you tried scryb ranger in the spot? or does the 2cc bother you? it is a faerie to support sprite in the end.

Goblin Snowman
07-06-2009, 08:33 PM
Yes, you could... I definitely see the merits of it, but how is running 3 Oriss better than 1 Spore Frog? I could see the Oriss lock helping versus combo, but I am not really worried about that since I would much rather just keep tutoring for Faeries if I have an active Survival against storm. Spore Frog is cheaper to play, easier to cast, and I don't need to devote too many slots to it.

It really comes down to your meta. I'm still likely the card (testing still says keep it), as it will equal a win on turn four against anything without STP or Snuff Out. Jak, have you tried it? There's a world of difference between shutting off an attack step (while still being counterable) and preventing a player from playing spells. Also, while Sprite is sexy (and trust me, I love it), there's a bit of a difference in ending the game (mostly) or hoping the spell you counter is relevant.

Jak
07-06-2009, 09:37 PM
It really comes down to your meta. I'm still likely the card (testing still says keep it), as it will equal a win on turn four against anything without STP or Snuff Out. Jak, have you tried it? There's a world of difference between shutting off an attack step (while still being counterable) and preventing a player from playing spells. Also, while Sprite is sexy (and trust me, I love it), there's a bit of a difference in ending the game (mostly) or hoping the spell you counter is relevant.

I tried it in the deck but never got the lock down in the games I played with it. I'll try it again since you are having good results with it and it does mean win versus aggro (Goblins, Merfolk, Elves).

Windux
07-07-2009, 05:48 AM
Scryb Rangers cost of 2 bothers me much.
For example: I won sunday against AggroLoam (Game 1) with 1 Land, 1 Hierarch, Survival + Critter in my opening hand.
I searched turn 3 for the Ranger and went nuts.
The entire game, i only had 2 lands (I drew the second very late) bit I still managed to win.
You often start with 1-2Land + Hierarch. Quirion Ranger shines there.
It's also nice to play stuff, untap Hierarch, play the land again. You will have 2 open manasources. If your opponent play something, just survival an Sprite, untap the Hierarch again and play it.
Or attack with Goyf, untap it into the opponents attacking creatures.
Ranger is so awesome preventing you from being screwed, wastelocked, getting overrun (Rhox War Monks is my favorite untap target ;) )

I could imagine testing Oriss as a 2-off in my sideboard. Since I play 1 Gaddock Teeg to survival for, I just would need 1 slot more.
Together with 1 Teferi (I test him main instead of the Angerslot), it could be a nice hardlock. But that would be only good against combo.
Against aggro this would last too long to be good.
Burn still can kill Oriss (the only option is to play Teferi EoT and directly Oriss, but that costs you UUUW3 against BURN)
Goblins do have Weirding, Sharpshooter+Fanatic, Terminate or Incinerator.
Zoo has burn, merfolk bounce.
Ok against elves, it would be great...but Spore Frog would do the same since they can't do anything against him.

So, where is Oriss better than Spore Frog?

Jak
07-07-2009, 06:00 AM
Well, to be fair, Oriss can't be burned after his summoning sickness wears off.

Windux
07-07-2009, 06:08 AM
With two burnspells, oriss can be killed.
Burn -> Ability -> Burn -> Kill.

Waikiki
07-07-2009, 06:41 AM
I would simply not run it and stick to a more survival less dependent build. As for a nice sb card vs combo my options are MM,Teeg and Aven mindcensor.

I will test out quirion ranger.

Goblin Snowman
07-07-2009, 11:29 AM
I could imagine testing Oriss as a 2-off in my sideboard. Since I play 1 Gaddock Teeg to survival for, I just would need 1 slot more.
Together with 1 Teferi (I test him main instead of the Angerslot), it could be a nice hardlock. But that would be only good against combo.
Against aggro this would last too long to be good.
Burn still can kill Oriss (the only option is to play Teferi EoT and directly Oriss, but that costs you UUUW3 against BURN)
Goblins do have Weirding, Sharpshooter+Fanatic, Terminate or Incinerator.
Zoo has burn, merfolk bounce.
Ok against elves, it would be great...but Spore Frog would do the same since they can't do anything against him.

So, where is Oriss better than Spore Frog?


Ichorid (to stop Dread Return), Aggro Loam (They are fine with digging for Assault), anything with Deed (Rock, UGB Threshold, etc.), anything with Humility, Stax, every combo deck, Sui/Pox, Nonblue Aggro in general......

I totally understand not wanting to run him. Just, you know, think about these statements before making them.

EDIT;

To elaborate a bit more on Oriss. Playing Oriss and attempting to use them alone to end the game is never going to work. It's rarely my first target for a Survival (Unless they have lethal damage, are about to combo off, or I suspect Humility/Deed). It serves as an excellent way to close the game, similar in purpose to Wonder. Once you drop him, the other player generally has 4 instant speed outs in their deck, whether Swords, Fireblast, or Snuff Out. Given that unless you're incredibly mana-screwed (in which case I question why you fetched Oriss to begin with) you should be able to get SS Sprite to negate the most common removal, and that Oriss protects against single burn already, they have a very limited window of time to draw a very specific set of cards. Sometimes you can achieve the same effect by fetching flying fatties and dropping them. Sometimes you can't. For 2-3 slots in your stack of 75, it tends to win me way more games than an additional War Monk or Venser or something would have.

Windux
07-08-2009, 06:58 AM
[QUOTE=Goblin Snowman;359911]Ichorid (to stop Dread Return), Aggro Loam (They are fine with digging for Assault), anything with Deed (Rock, UGB Threshold, etc.), anything with Humility, Stax, every combo deck, Sui/Pox, Nonblue Aggro in general......

I totally understand not wanting to run him. Just, you know, think about these statements before making them.
Ichorid just can Firestorm your Spore Frog. Not more. So Spore Frog wins anyway.
AggroLoam is a bad matchup anyway, they have Dreams and SA to kill you completly. Oriss have to be there, before they can play Dreams or SA and you won't Play oriss turn 3 with Survival. If you do, it's nice yes.
Combo Decks are mostly faster than you can search and drop Oriss (you need SotF in your opening hand). Sui/Pox attacks your manabase and slows you down badly. You don#t want to search for oriss. You want to search for Hierarchs, Sprites and Ranger to survive in any way.
Stax ok, but if you can drop the Oriss engine, you have won anyway. Instead just search Pridemage and destroy a permanent of him each (second) round with Genesis and stabilize your manabase with Hierarchs.

I don't see why Oriss should be better here. It's an "If I drop it, I win" card, which needs Survival, which is an "If I drop it, I win" card anyway.

Henrik
07-08-2009, 07:15 AM
I really agree with this. In the matches mentioned, I can't really see how Oriss really helps out anything, if we already have survival in play anyway. I admit, I have not tried it, but I have to say I haven't had any problems handling any of those decks as soon as I dropped Survival.

However, I feel totaly unprepared to deal with combo with the current MD and SB I use. Could we please brainstorm a little bit for what we could use in the SB to combat Storm (Solidarity if you have it, but ANT and the likes in particular) and Ichorid.

More or less Survival dependant:
Spore frog / Genesis
Meddling mage
Teeg
Oriss (I guess it deserves at least to be up here)
Ethersworn canonist
...

Non-survival dependant:
More counters? Including disrupt?
Engineered explosives
Crypt and Relic
...

What would you go with, and how many slots would you dedicated in the SB for storm and ichorid respectively, if you were to show up in an unknown metagame?

Waikiki
07-08-2009, 07:29 AM
Myself atm I play

3 daze 4 fow and sprite mb

sb I run 3 MM 1 teeg and sometimes a single aven mindcensor. Combo is hard to fight through. But is winnable. Its not that represented in my meta so I wont bother any more sb slots on that.

Goblin Snowman
07-08-2009, 11:23 AM
I run Sprites, Force, and a Mage MD (Switching out the Mage for a Teeg when I don't run Oriss). Sideboard, I have 2x more Teeg and generally a set of Mages (who also come in against Stax and Landstill).

Against Solidarity, I would be "ok" with my maindeck package against them, unless Solidarity was dominating the metagame or something. I would change up my board for Glowriders and possibly Mana Maze if you want noncreature hate, as Mana Maze shuts them down without initerfering with you playing out creatures (at least, not much).

Against Ichorid, just run Faerie Macabre(s). Because it doesn't take mana, it's much easier to Survival up than something like Jotun Grunt or Loaming Shaman, and can be recurred if you're runninig Genesis.

@ Windux
I'm not going to insisit you run him. I'm just saying, that I've had good results with him (her?) against a fairly diverse metagame. Also, I'm pretty sure people will either test it or they won't. We've beaten that horse to death a little bit, so unless anyone still has a specific question on the card, we should just talk about other ways to improve the deck.

My biggest questions for people right now are, why are you running Ranger with no creatures who really are begging to be untapped (i.e., is protecting your lands from Wasteland really worth a spot?), how is Daze working out for you (I tried it quite a bit, and really never loved it, as I kept getting hands with no creatures to pitch), and how does everyone feel on Ralfiq and Tefari? I personally see them as "win more", but that's just me right now.

For the record, my current list is this;

2x Forest
1x Plains
4x Tropical Island
4x Savannah
1x Tundra
3x Windswept Heath
3x Flooded Strand

1x Gaddok Teeg
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Spellstutter Sprite
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Qasali Pridemage
3x Rhox War Monk
1x Wonder
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
1x Genesis
1x Sower of Temptation

4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Aether Vial
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Survival of the Fittest

SB
2x Gaddok Teeg
4x Meddling Mage
3x Oriss, Samite Guardian
3x Krosan Grip
1x Rhox War Monk
1x Faerie Macabre
1x Kira, Great Glass Spinner

Henrik
07-08-2009, 04:39 PM
Problem with all of those answers, including faerie macabre, is that they are dependant on survival in play, unless your lucky with your opening seven, and I'm not sure that's fast enough. But I guess it has to be enough, since we actually are playing survival, I don't consider this deck to be any worse prepared to face those bitching matchups than any other deck... (excuse my french). I will go with Teeg and a split of crypts and macabres for now.

Follow up questions though, what do you hit with macabre given the chance? the first dredger that hits the yard, or do you save it for brigdes?

Regarding Snowball goblin's question, I for one can only defend Rafiq of the cards you mentioned. I also tested ranger (well actually I tested the pro-blue flash sprite) but I didn't think it deserved it's slot either. However, Rafiq is really good. He is a substitute for hasted creatures via anger, and he lets you go beatdown with faeries really quick, in those games you fail to play in the controlling, responding style.

I see that you're list is quite different (which is cool), so your vials might reduce the need of rafiq, since your creatures will have a good surprise element built in anyways.


EDIT: "Snowball goblin", I'm laughing all the way to the refridgerator...

Windux
07-08-2009, 04:42 PM
I saw Vial in another build before.
Is vial worth it, to cut Ponder?
You are running 16 pitchable cards for force only (which is the minimum and you don't want to pitch Sower or Wonder often).

Rafiq: I cutted him as well since he is most often only a win-more card (but I wished him 1-2times last tournament, but managed to win anyway).
Teferi: I don't know. It seems like he is the lategame tutorable vial in this deck.

Ranger: I wrote this a few times ;) Hierarch wants to be untapped, lands want be protected, Survivalicks (see the Sprite-example), untapping Goyfs/Monks in creaturebattles (especially with Exalted)

GGoober
07-08-2009, 04:45 PM
beating combo is precisely why I reverted back to 3 Daze MD since it gives a chance game 1 to beat combo. My advice is to play more like the Thresh player i.e. relying on Survival to tutor up hate-bears is just too slow. Think of this as the reason as why Survival decks (Elf Survival and traditional RGBSA) have trouble with ANT because tutoring your answer on turn 3 is too slow against ANT. We have the luxury of FOW but that's not enough since their Duress plays 1v1 against FOW. Having 3 Daze MD is crucial to buy time and land Survival and tutor out a hatebear on Turn 3, and hopefully lock them out with Sprites and save FOW for ANT.

The deck faces the same problems as regular survival decks, so you have to take the initiative to play as a Thresh deck instead of a Survival deck i.e. don't be greedy and try to Survival lock him. Play conservatively and don't give him any outs.

@Windux: Always have been a fan of Ranger. I played Elf Survival and begun to realize the strength of Ranger and Elvish Spirit Guide. If I were to be a little different in taking this deck's direction, I'd go with 1-2 Rangers, 3-4 ESG and drop the land count. ESG helps accelerate, pay for Daze and feeds Survival in the lategame instead of topdecking a land. ESG is simply the MVP in Elf Survival, and could fulfill a similar role in this deck, although the synergy isn't as great, but she does solve the problems against Moon/Daze/bad land topdecks. The deck only really needs 2 mana to function if you don't have a Survival in play, and it can grab accelerants off Survival anyway.

Henrik
07-08-2009, 05:05 PM
The deck faces the same problems as regular survival decks, so you have to take the initiative to play as a Thresh deck instead of a Survival deck i.e. don't be greedy and try to Survival lock him. Play conservatively and don't give him any outs.



So disrupt in the board then?
It could be useful for thresh, TA and sui-builds as well.
This is assuming a build without daze in MD, I've tried it but didn't like it, even though I respect that a lot players do.

GGoober
07-08-2009, 05:15 PM
Disrupt is good but not good in this deck. Disrupt in tempo decks are golden since you're destabilizing their manabase and tempo, forcing them to go off or risk losing more tempo. Therefore the Daze aspect is much improved with Tempo Thresh.

Survival Bant does not play at all like Tempo Thresh. We like to turn 1 Hierarch if possible (best play) so that we can turn 2 Survival and start discarding with the extra green source. We like keeping green open instead of blue since our only counterspells are Sprite (and Daze but that does not require blue mana to be open). Disrupt would require you to have U open at times, and with a deck that doesn't disrupt like Tempo Thresh, the Daze effect becomes weaker. I would recommend Spell Snare instead since it deals with the aggroloam Matchup (which is somewhat bad in my opinion). The other possibility that I am thinking off is in 3ESG builds, you can potentially deal with combo much better since you can land T1 Survival, but that's still not wise. To really deal with combo, you need more than 3 hate bears in the SB, so that you can draw into them, instead on relying on the slower survival engine. My meta only has 1 combo player, so I don't really board against combo that well, but from experience, Clique won me a game by herself by taking the ANT from upkeep MTutor. It was pretty cool :D

Play Survival Bant if your meta is more landstill/aggro flooded. Survival Bant does much better against Landstill since you have flash and flash >>> Standstill :D

Henrik
07-08-2009, 05:33 PM
Trust me, I am quite aware of how to play this deck, thanks ;)
(you are absolutely correct of course).

I don't have a lot of combo in my meta either, but there is a larger world out there, or so I've heard. I want to be prepared for both combo and Ichorid if they would show up in an unknown meta where I am one of the non-regular as well. I wanted to brainstorm a little bit about what answers are available, thats all.