[Deck] UG Madness - Aggro Control

[scrumdogg]

The time has come for an open & productive discussion on Type 1.5 Madness. This may seem pointless given the fact that LED rotates out of our format on January 1st. However, I feel that properly built Madness decks will not only survive the banning, but come out of the process stronger & better built. The number of times that LED has allowed me turn 1 broken beatings is far outweighed by the times I dare not lose my hand or fear running into an answer (FoW or STP). Furthermore, the deck needs to be slow played (as does much aggro-utility) in a combo & control heavy environment.
Here is the decklist I ran at the TMD Championship. My record was 4-2-1 with loss #2 being me scooping to my Team 1.5 partner in Round 7 when we deadlocked in Game 3. A tie meant neither of us would advance (unacceptable....) with the only true loss being to TeenieBopper playing....Madness.

G/R/w Madness (or as my friend Dave calls it M-B-B-M-B-B-Madnesssssss!

Critters: (20)
4x Shiny Dog (Wild Mongrel)
4x Lizard of Tastiness (Basking Rootwalla)
3x Arrogant Wurm
3x Roar of the Wurm (will be & should be 4x Arrogant, 2x Roar)
4x Squee, Goblin of Brokenness
2x Anger Incarnation of Insta-Beatings

Tricks: (13)
4x Fiery Temper
3x Violent Eruption
2x Night Soil (re-use, reduce, recycle!)
4x Naturalize

Mana Sources: (28)
4x LED (currently being tested as ESG - coincedentally a 2/2 beater as necessary)
4x Bazaar of Non-Blue Card Advantage
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Taiga
4x Wasteland
2x Riftstone Portal (oops, all my lands are Savannahs...)
2x Savannah
4x Plateau

Sideboard (to taste for meta & playstyle)
3x Tormod's Crypt (probably should be 4)
4x Ray of Duress This! I mean Revelation
3x Root Maze
2x Artifact Mutation
1x Gorilla Shaman (more if you expect lots of COTV, less if not)
2x Pyrokenesis

A quick explanation on some of the choices:
Night Soil - yet another permanent that decks like Dragon need to deal with, this is fine vs aggro as well since both of our decks make guys, some of whom die. Good vs recursion as well (derf) and helps provide tempo while leaving mana open for reactive spells.

Naturalize in MD: Name me a worthy Type 1.5 deck that does NOT run artifacts & enchantments, especially in a control & combo heavy meta. In that match up I discard these to Shiny Dog or Bazaar - no great loss. Help give the deck game versus Dragon & wMUD etc etc sometime BEFORE Game 2.

I have 10 cards maindeck for Dragon & ilk and 20 after sideboarding. I can and should slow play the deck against combo & control but it beat wMUD, Dragon, Tog, Geoff Oath, and held it's own with John's R/G Survival in the TMD. Quite frankly, FoW scares me much more Mana Drain and Wasteland makes me cry. The major issue with the deck is drawing/consistency without Bazaar and how to effectively deal with that (although with the proper threat/answer density, topdecking becomes less of an issue). How to make this deck better? Ideas, thoughts and best of all experiences are welcomed. Hopefully TeenieBopper posts his G/U/r decklist as well, as that beat me Saturday and has tested 50/50 with my version (stoopid topdecked Tropical Island! d'oh!). I will also be posting my G/R/b version specifically metagamed for a heavy aggro environment such as Woosta has been.

[Lord McCaffrey]

Although Bazaar of Baghdad is fairly critical to the deck, Blood Moon wouldn't hurt your mana at all due to Riftstone Portal, and could hurt some decks, and here im thinking of Gorger, alot more. It could perhaps be worth a slot or 2 board, especially since you can xlerate into a fairly fast play.

[Di]

There really aren't too many artifacts in the format, so do you think you could possibly fit in 1-2 maindeck Ray in place of 1-2 Naturalize?? Also, the sideboarded Gorilla Shaman seems really random. Chalice pf the Void imo shouldn't hurt you too much, since the bombs you have cost too much to Chalice for, and there are too many different casting costs for them to deal with. Setting it on 2 stops Mongrel, Naturalize, and Night Soil, but doesn't touch any of the other bombs. Besides, there's only 1 deck that can actually get a 2-counter Chalice before you play Mongrel, and that's Welder Mud, which isn't the most common deck.


it beat Dragon

Nah. You just got some help for your opponent that round :)

[Carlos El Salvador]

Maybe I'm dumb... but how does CotV really harm this dekc? Chalice for 1 kills walla, 2 kills mogrnal.... and then your otherspells are basiclly chaliceproof. Also, where's intuition? Your current incarnation is going to be eaten by control on a silver platter... hte deck needs sources of card advantage other than Bazaar... Deep A's are NEEDED for htis deck. My changes woudl be -1 VE, -1 ESG, +2 Deep A.

[scrumdogg]

I'm not running blue in this version, although I'm seriously considering it......I hate having a 4-5 color manabase, especially when Wastelands are such a necessity in the deck. Wasteland for the oppo is already good, making it better for them seems sub-optimal, ya know?

COTV shuts down Mongrel (key), the Soil & Naturalize - along with EVERY other artifact d in my deck...... Once COTV for 2 resolves, I am helpless to stop the NEXT one, as well as running much slower. Any deck running Dark Ritual can also get it out before I Mongrelize the board. And while there isn't a lot of MUD, I really hate to lose to a good deck when I don't have to. I tried Ray main deck but I often ended up wanting a Naturalize (Belcher, Stick, etc).

Blood Moon is a good call & I have run it before (and may do so again) but what would you recommend pulling? There are too many good sideboard options for the deck & for the TMD I went with the cheapest compliment of answers. When Dragon can go off turn 2-3 & Duress/FoW you as well, 3 drops seem suboptimal. Although the ESG gets around it's disadvantage as well as accelerating it out......hmmmm.....

Yup, you did help me Colin...thanks! But you were lucky that I had absolute crap that game as well. And be truthful, tell me you thought it would an easy match up?

I'm very much looking forward to TeenieBopper posting his list, as it is also an extremely good version.

[AlexH]

Are 4 Squee really neccesary? Your goal is to pitch spells so that you can play them. Spells like Roar and Wurm. I'd probaly take out 1 Squee for the 3rd Roar.

[scrumdogg]

I've hard cast Squee more times than you might think :;): Besides, I reallllly want at least 2 Squee in hand since I will not often be able to get/cast 2 spells at the same time in the same activation. I want this deck to be generating card advantage, diggin for threats & answers, not emptying my hand so I autolose to combo :cool: The ability to have a threat attacking & cards in hand with mana open makes me feel all warm & fuzzy inside (as opposed to the hollow feeling of terror I get while being empty handed & tapped out staring at my oppo going off.....). I can also always pitch them to the Shiny Dog for increased beats (never a bad thing...). In my opinion this deck, to be successful, MUST be aggro-control as opposed to aggro.

[Di]

Yup, you did help me Colin...thanks! But you were lucky that I had absolute crap that game as well. And be truthful, tell me you thought it would be an easy match up?
You were lucky I sideboarded out my Laquatus on accident. But I wouldn't consider something like ripping a Root Maze the turn after I Duress it. Or beating my face in when I'm sitting with a Bazaar and no Squees? I had just as many bad draws as you did man.

I knew it would be easy game 1. I also knew it would be hell game 2 and game 3. I knew that once TeenieBopper showed me his sideboard before the tourny, and the facial expression you got when you heard you were to play me.

[AlexH]

Still, would you consider cutting just 1 Squee for another threat? Squee isn't much of a threat ;p

[TeenieBopper]

Here's my current version

Dudes

4 Rootwalla
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Arrogant Wurm
4 Roar of the Wurm

Make's my Dudes Better
3 Anger
2 Wonder

Kills your Dudes (and you)
3 Fiery Temper
2 Violent Eruption

Gives me a late game
4 Deep Analysis

An attempt to make Dragon winnable game one
2 Naturalize

Mana. Cause you need that, you know.
3 Tropical Island
4 Taiga
1 Volcanic Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Wasteland
3 Bazaar of Baghdad

S.B.
3 Ray of Revalation
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ground Seal
4 Circular Logic
2 Artifact Mutation

Unfortunately, this version is all but dead January 1st. It just loses too much with the loss of LED. LED was literally two Loti in one.The deck's vulnerability to wasteland was usually made up for by the explosiveness of LED. The deck could literally run off two lands because of it. If this deck is going to survive, it's got two ways to go. R/G or U/G. I don't think a three color version is going to work. Your decision comes down to three things, essentially. Wonder vs Anger, Counter vs. Burn, and Squee/Bazaar vs. Deep Anal.


I'm not running blue in this version, although I'm seriously considering it......I hate having a 4-5 color manabase, especially when Wastelands are such a necessity in the deck. Wasteland for the oppo is already good, making it better for them seems sub-optimal, ya know?

Allan, your version could easily fit blue by cutting some of the White lands like Plateau and Savannah. The only white that you have is ray of revelation. And what makes Ray good isn't the fact that it can be a two for one, but that it flashes back for green. I can understand a single savannah or something so you can fetch it, but otherwise, that's plenty of space for blue lands. Of course, like I said, come january, you're going to have to make a choice. Blue or Red.


Are 4 Squee really neccesary? Your goal is to pitch spells so that you can play them. Spells like Roar and Wurm. I'd probaly take out 1 Squee for the 3rd Roar.

You of all people should know that if you've got Bazaar/Squee, 4 squee is necessary. :)

The reason bazaar is so good in this deck is it turns card disadvantage into virtual card advantage. If you're discarding a card you want to discard, is it really bad? However, you can't always do that. Alot of people can attest to this that sometimes I bazaar and say "Fuck" because there's stuff I don't want to discard, like LED's, Mongrel's, stuff I can't/dont want to madness away yet, and sometimes land. Squee means you don't have to do that and it turns Bazaar into a card advantage engine. So, if squee/bazaar is the way you're going, you need all 4 Squee. However, I do agree that there should be 3 Roars.

About CotV. If you're playing against MUD, Chalice is the least of your concerns. Turn one metalworkers, Tangle Wires, Smokestacks, Welders, Triskilion, Bosh, etc are bigger things to worry about than Chalice, simply because your threats have too diverse a casting cost base, and some of it is just too damn expensive to reliably chalice for.

Uhm... so yeah.

[Di]

Wow, Your list is only one card off of my own Mike(-1 Rootwalla, +1 Rey of Revalation), And the manabase is a tad bit different(-1 Taiga -1 Mountain, +1 Volcanic Island, +1 Tropical Island). Sideboard is close too, but Root Maze is used over Ground Seal(Speed issue) Hm.

For the Welder Mud matchup, I'm looking into Energy Flux as well. With Spirit Guide, it's really easy to throw down on turn 2, or even turn 1, which is virtually impossible for the Welder Mud player to get around. Thoughts?

[scrumdogg]

Nice tech in the blue version against wMUD. The problem is making sure it gets down turn 2 (or pre-lock) and how useful is it against anything except MUD? I guess it would be hilarious against Teh Suck....and against Stalking Stones but I'm wary of limited sideboard cards. More than 3 in a sidebaord and you had better be amazing against the general field. My 3 dedicated SB cards are Root Maze (for Dragon, of course) in part because I expect to see alot more Dragon the MUD

The blue version is much more of an aggro deck, a Suicide-Madness if you will, because it can dig & be explosive but not generate card advantage. The ability to fly is what gives it an edge (see Sat. & 11 pts. of flying damage...sigh). I believe that the blue version will have to adapt the most to overcome the loss of LED. It actively lusts after flying wurms and since it will be losing it's hand anyway doesn't care about the potential disadvantage.

I disagree that the archetype can't support a three color build (especially when 1 color is a splash - albeit an important splash, Ray makes this deck 300% better). Between duals & fetches, the mana base is very versatile. However, the thinner it is spread, the harder the choices become (do I get Trop Isle or Volcanic Isle, Savannah or Plateau, which option will cause me least setback?) and more vulnerable to disruption. Losing my lone white source & having to only flashback Ray makes it much less useful. How relieved were you to topdeck that Trop. on Sat. TeenieBopper? I saw the stress you were under when I wasted your lone blue source (admittedly a topdeck of my own....) and you run a deck FULL of blue sources. The defining issue of which Madness build (well articulated btw) concerns not only those three questions, but my concerns about thinning the manabase (even worse for players without the duals!) and the fact that you can only fit so many cards in the deck. I'd love to have both Anger & Wonder - but unless I want to concede every game 1 to MUD & Dragon, I need my utility. Even then, what leaves the sideboard?

I believe we should post experimental G/R/U/w decklists and try to agree on a viable model. I will also post my G/R/b aggro meta model this weekend..soon...really

[Di]

Nice tech in the blue version against wMUD. The problem is making sure it gets down turn 2 (or pre-lock) and how useful is it against anything except MUD? I guess it would be hilarious against Teh Suck....and against Stalking Stones but I'm wary of limited sideboard cards. More than 3 in a sidebaord and you had better be amazing against the general field. My 3 dedicated SB cards are Root Maze (for Dragon, of course) in part because I expect to see alot more Dragon the MUD

How many other decks would you expect to sideboard in Artifact Mutation in against? I think Energy Flux fits nicely.

[scrumdogg]

Actually, Artifact Mutation replaces Naturalize #3 & 4 against anyone not running serious enchantments - everyone from Teh Suck to Sligh. Converting ANY artifact into beaters is a good thing for a tempo deck (and is damn demoralizing to play aginst). Your Cursed Scroll, Goblin Charbelcher, Isochron Scepter, Bonesplitter, Tangle Wire, Sapphire Medallion just decided to defect & beat you about the head & shoulders...bummer. I like your Flux tech but I always assume that I will lose the die roll & go second. That means I have to look at all possible additions to the deck (any deck) with the questions 1) how many times can it get Duressed? 2) will it kick my own ass if it gets Drained? 3) will it resolve in time to make a difference in the average game? 4) how many decks will this be useful against i.e. Tormod's Crypt > Root Maze in terms of versatility 5) how durable is the card?

[Carlos El Salvador]

New Year of Madness

Beats
4 Basking Rootwalla
3 Arrogant Wurm
3 Roar of the Wurm
4 Wild Mongral
1 Wonder
3 anger
4 ESG (Might get cut later)
3 Waterfrount Bouncer

Burn
3 Firey Tempers
2 Eruptions

Utility
3 Deep A
3 Intuition
2 Naturalize

Land
2 Flooded Strand
4 Wooded foothill
4 Taiga
4 Trop Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
1 Island
1 Forest
3 Wasteland

The maindeck is diverse to function in all of the major matches. Fitting 2 more naturalizes in would be a pain... I could see cutting a spirit guide for a third naturalize, as this deck has no other way to win VS dragon game 1. This is to maximize the punishment this deck can dish out game 1 VS other decks. 3 Intuition may go down to two, but I'd be weary, as intuition is the deck's best tool for card advantage. VS aggro, you will usually intuition for like 2 Wurm and Anger (if not in grave). Wastelands are to kepe other people mana screwed long engouth to beatdown. I don't really approve of the second madness outlet... But between the utility of it and it auto-winning VS dragon, it's a great card. It is the fact that it's dead in other matchups that I don't like about the bouncer. That started as Meboas, but those aren't even very good... This is a budget version... and I miss haivng more madness outlets.

[scrumdogg]

What the heck is a Meboa?!? Aquamoeba maybe? The combination of Bouncer, Naturalize, & Wasteland give you a vague shot Game 1, but not much. The deck needs more disruption & as many madness outlets as it can get. The deck also really wants Bazaar, if it's unavailable you're almost better going black. Black gives you access to Zombie Infestation & Krovikan Horror as well as Duress & Cabal Therapy. On a budget, you're better off going for quick, repetitive hand control & beats. I'll post that list tomorrow...or maybe the day after...sometime soon....

[TheKirdApe]

[color=#000000:post_uid4]This is one of my first post on this forum, so please go easy on me. :;):

I am a longtime player but a complete newb to 1.5, any concerns or advice will be greatly appreciated.

With the restriction of LED, i noticed the posts on 1.5 madness have all but disappeared.



4 basking rootwalla
4 wild mongrel
4 arrogant wurm
4 squee goblin nabob
3 roar of the wurm

3 anger
2 wonder

4 careful study
3 fiery temper
2 mask of memory
4 bazaar of baghdad

4 elvish spirit guide
4 wooded foothills
4 tropical island
4 taiga
4 volcanic island
3 wasteland
==============
Questions I have:
What the heck is this suppose to do about dragon?

How is the Workshop.decs vs. Madness matchup?

I have seen some madness variants using survival, I tested it a bit, but it seems way too slow for my tastes.

Would naturalizes be good maindeck?

Are 1.5 versions running circular logic?

Oh, and I am having a bit of trouble with the mana base, any help?
==============

Anyone have their own lists?[/color:post_uid4]

[TeenieBopper]

Having played the deck before it's restriction, I think I'm qualified enough to say that I think the deck is dead, at least in a three color version. The deck simply loses way to much to LED. LED defined that deck. It generated anywhere from 4-8 mana every time you used it, possibly more. It was the best madness outlet the deck had.

If you're going to run madness, I think it's best if you pick a two color combination, possibly with a very, very minimal splash. I think it's best to run a G/R/u build, with only trops/volcanics to support Wonder.

To answer your questions

1. Scoop game one. Then board in 9-12 cards.
2. Very, very bad. Naturalize helps, as does hull breach, but it's never even close to good.
3. Survival in madness is bad. Survival in O Stompy is good. I think O Stompy is the best deck to abuse the madness ability.
4. Naturalizes main are fine. Personally, I never liked them, but I played them simply to have a 10% chance of beating dragon game one.
5. Not that I've seen, unless you're running essentially extended U/G. I never ran it main because it wasn't a threat. I did board 4, however.
6. Get LED unrestricted. Not only was it an accellerant, it was also a mana fixer. I would also consider basics, because wasteland wrecks your day. Riftstone portal also does wonders for the deck. Having Bazaars that produced mana came in helpful often for me.



Edited By TeenieBopper on 1075187285

[scrumdogg]

Madness is not dead, repeat with me...Madness is not dead! OK, maybe I am a bit obsessed, but the deck is very resilient as I plan to prove to you all at the Spring TMD 1.5 (which is when?....).

Do you have access to Bazaar of Baghdad, KirdApe? If so, please run it as the card advantage is insane, as is the madnessing outlet. Without Bazaar, you really need to either pick a 2 color combo with access to a small splash of white (G/R/w or G/U/w) or get radical and go black. I'll give you a black list tomorrow since I have to go to work very soon. Naturalize maindeck is necessary if you expect to see Dragon, MUD, FCG, etc etc in your area. Quite frankly, pick up 4x Viridian Zealot as soon as you can get your hands on him, as this puppy complements Naturalize extremely well (basically Naturalize with beatings....) and should lead to a build that features 8 Naturalize effects maindeck and a bejeezusload of options after boarding. Gotta go, let us know about your card availability (do you have all the duals you mentioned, for example, or is this an experimental question?)

[TheKirdApe]

scrumdogg, notice i have 4 bazaar listed, i dont count them as lands since they do not produce mana :)

zealot is a stick, but are 8 naturalizes needed?

thanks for your help too, i look forward to the list with black

[scrumdogg]

Great, I'm not only deaf, I'm blind too. Can I get senile thrown in as a bonus? Thanks..... :cool: If you have the money cards, run 'em. 8 Naturalize are definitely needed, especially if 4 of them beat down. The Fiery Temper, as much as I love it, is doing less & less in the modern environment. The ability to control permanents - especially enchantments & artifacts - is becoming more important than burn/creature control. Even for the board, reusable effects like Core are better than one shots like burn. Riftsone Portal is quite good, even if you can only fit two - it lets both sac lands & Bazaars tap for mana & gives you Ray of Revelation out of the board (huge). Mask of Memory is a neat idea, especially with evasion, have you tested it? How has it worked for you? Are two enough to see it consistently?

[ForceofWill]

Here's the version of madness I've been testing

Intuition is great when you can pull it off because of many reasons. Let's think of Intuition for an Anger a Wonder and a Roar. That's great with bazaar out or, my personal favorite, with a dog in play. Also, at the end of your turn i'll get three squees

mana/land
4 ESG
4 Taiga
4 Wooded foothills
4 Wasteland
4 Bazaar
2 Trop
2 Vocanic
2 Riftstone

Men
4 Dog
4 Fruitwalla
4 Arrogant
3 Roar
4 Squee of insanity
2 anger
2 wonder

Goodness
2 Intuition
4 Naturalize
4 Careful Study
1 Blessing

Board
4 Stifle
3 Pyrokenies
4 Art mutation
4 Ray

As you can see md dragon hate sideboard dragon hate. Pray you don't get the blessing in your hand.

Has no one thought of stifle? It's broken against many decks.



Edited By peter_rotten on 1075310085

[scrumdogg]

Is this your secret new deck? Damn, I've created a monster....maybe it's just as well I won't be there a while. I need to update my tech, apparently. Intuition (and blue draw) is one of the stronger reasons to use U/G/x Madness instead of G/R/x Madness, good call. Has the Careful Study been helpful consistently? I like the madness/draw synergy, but would it be better as 4x Viridian Zealot come March? I'm interested in perspective on that.....

[ForceofWill]

Yes U/G/R madness is so much better than your old version. Intuition is just flat out broken. Turn 1 carful study discarding rootwalla/squee/anger/wonder/roar is insane plus it helps you to draw into a bazaar or like a naturalize if your playing against Dragon. What does the Zealot do any way.

Oh and this is my fun t1.5 deck not my extremely broken godly tournament deck that's out to get you :D .

[kirdape3]

I would honestly play the Oshawa Stompy deck except it loses horribly to at least two of the common Tier One decks (Dragon, Food Chain Goblins) and does not have all that fair of a MUD matchup as well since Sphere of Resistance (and now the evil, evil Trinisphere) just bury you.

Madness now lacks a major accelerant and a very consistent madness engine. I would be wary of playing it now.

[ForceofWill]

madness isn't to bad of a deck as it can race agro and have answers to combo. It may have dropped a tier since the restrictions but it is far from a bad deck.

[TheKirdApe]

i have been tested a little this week and ive come to realize:

i definetly love the blue, careful study is amazing it helps me out of land screw and helps me find a permanent madness outlet (mongrel, b.o.b)

i dont like intuition, from the little testing i have done, i dont really want to leave mana open to fetch anything in particular, plus with careful study and bazaar you typically find exactly what you want fairly quickly. seems to be overkill, but ill have to test it before i make a final decision

mask of memory can be insane at times i repeat INSANE, they are a madness outlet and are great card advantage. its about 50/50 on the times i cast it and the times i pitch it to bazaar.

the reason for 2 at the moment is because you typically dont want to see this in your opening hand, of course there are occasions like having a first turn mongrel in hand, or a rootwalla, elvish spirit guide, and the mask so you can cast and equip 2nd turn. and of course you dont necessarily need to draw it, it has just been helpful to draw the business spells.

now that you mention it, fiery temper has been deadweight although it has been invaluable against goblins. viridian zealot seems like a stronger choice. if it werent for anger i wouldnt run red at all.

4 basking rootwalla
4 wild mongrel
4 arrogant wurm
4 squee goblin nabob
4 viridian zealot
3 roar of the wurm

3 anger
2 wonder

4 careful study
2 naturalize

4 elvish spirit guide
4 bazaar of baghdad
4 wooded foothills
4 taiga
4 tropical island
4 wasteland
2 riftstone portal

SB:
to be determined...


to accomodate the naturalizes i had to drop mask of memory (sigh) but you guys are more experienced in the format so i guess ill give this list a whirl and see what happens, im not sure if enjoy the thought of a bear that cost double green. i think 8 naturalize effects is a bit heavy so im opting for 6 and if i feel the need to go with more, i will.

also im a huge fan of riftstone portal, didnt think about including it, ill have to see if it becomes more of a detriment than helpful.

thanks for the posts, your insight is indeed helpful. hopefully everyone can do some more playtesting on their own so we can really fine tune this bad boy and see if it will remain a competitive deck.

[ForceofWill]

If I may make a suggestion you might want to go with two zealot four naturalize because although zealot beats naturalize is stealth tech (like 007 :cool: ).

Also the 1 main deck blessing really pisses off dragon players who don't think you'd run it. the only problem is if you draw it but that a small chance especially early game aginst dragon.

Deep anal is nice espically with dog plus thats one card that goes to bazaar if you don't have any madness cards.

as for the board play the ray it's so good espially when you have riftstone because you can do both flashback and hard cast and I hear that hurts dragon. Stifle = more dragon hate in the board. Art mutation is needed if there's any worshop based decks. Pyrokenieses (how ever thats spelled :p ) is great against everything that is agro.

Hope my ideas help :;):

[scrumdogg]

Two Zealot, four Naturalize maindeck is fine if you're worried about double green (which is a valid point for a three color build). Still, six Naturalize maindeck is very comforting.... I disagree with Anal, especially if your meta is heavy red/Sligh/Goblins (like &^%$# Woosta) as not only is it a sorcery but you Bolt yourself to cast it. Blue has better card draw with fewer drawbacks, imo. Besides, with BoB & Study, that's already 8 draw effects. One of the questions is how much manipulation vs how much pounding. I don't think it is bad to err on the side of pounding. Ray is soooo good that I would make sweet, sticky love to the card if it wouldn't wrinkle the foily covering..... :;): Art Mute is amazing if you expect artifacts and while I like Pyrokenesis, it is conditional. I run it because I am heavy red and Woosta is full of little gobliny guys. U/G/r may not have the red to fully support Pyro as you never want to hardcast it (you've aready won by that point....) and don't want it sitting in your hand mocking you....

[ForceofWill]

first there is only one goblin deck in &^%$# (wtf 5 characters (what word is that :laugh: )) Woosta (I love the way you spell it) but actually you should test the anal its pretty good. I agree with everything else accept for the most part with all the draw you will have most of the time you will have the red card

[scrumdogg]

Have the goblins finally died off in $%#&* Woosta 1.5? halle-frickin-lujah! 'Bout time, dammit, now I need to get to where I can play again...sigh. The Anal isn't as bad if you don't have the constant worry about Bolting yourself being instantly fatal, but you should dtill have enough draw without it. Study > Anal in my measured opinion. Ummmm, Ben.....what red cards? You have 3 Anger, 4 Squee in the deck other than maybe Art Mute out of the board - which of those do you want to remove from the game? Even if you draw them? My opinion, none of them! I want my Squees & Angers available....

[ForceofWill]

as painful as it is i'll remove a squee to kill 2-4 goblins and also I was saying if you run anal you will still play study. If you don't like the kenesis eruption is another way to go.

[scrumdogg]

How many draw effects do y'all believe to be optimal? I still wouldn't run Anal in a red heavy meta, but everyone gets to play their own deck (one of the things I love about this game). Eruption is a better choice, even with RR in the cc, than Kinesis in this deck imo as you never want to lose Squees (although I've made exactly that play, btw....I just wasn't happy about it). What is the meta for the specific deck we're bickering (politely) about? Do we even need to be discussing mass critter removal or are there different threats you're more concerned about?

[ForceofWill]

I was thinking something like 10 for the #of draw. I agree w/ what I said earlier about eruption.

We a new mana base for this because of all the changes.

How bout something like this
4 Bazaar
4 Foothills
4 Wasteland
4 ESG
4 Trop
3 Taiga
3 Volcanic

Just a thought :)

[TheKirdApe]

ok whats this *@&^@^@&#*#(#))(@*! woosta thing you two keep talking about? :p

force of will: so you think riftsone should be dropped in favor of volcanic island?

oh and a note on my meta, i have no meta, none, zip, zero. there is one other person in my area who is interested in 1.5 and 2 people who play type 1, most of my testing is on apprentice and against some type 1 randomness. ive been trying to get a vintage scene going, and im making slow progress.

i have been trying to locate 1.5 tournies in the general area, i'm currently checking out t&t and the war room in atl., GA to see if they have a scene. if anyone has info on the georgia, alabama, north florida area would be appreciated.

i dunno i was testing the last list i posted, and i think portal needs to stay i cant recall how many times i dropped a bob first turn then dropped a portal in the yard and dropped a mongrel second turn. i definetly luv the ray t3k

with the portals i really didnt have much problem casting the zealot, but i agree with force on that naturalize is typically better. are most builds of dragon the mono black spoils, or with blue? if the blue is more popular, i think i would play 4 zealots because once he is out, they have to deal with the bugger, naturalize could be force of will'd or counter by other means

i also tried 2 deep analysis in place of 2 naturalizes just to see how i liked them, i wasnt too satisfied with the results i think 8 draw is plenty afterall 4 of it is reusable.

violent eruption is mad beats :cool:

[ForceofWill]

Woosta a city in MA

About the riftstone I'm a fu$%ing retard, while posting that mana base I completely forgot about the riftstones, they belong I think my brain just like turned off.

yeah the eruption is nice when it works properly.

the anal aren't necessary I just like them against control and dragon. It's always fun to turn two draw into a ray with a dog out.

Any way I glad there is a new madness board so everybody keep testing :;): .

[TheKirdApe]

ok the only thing differing from the last list i posted is -2 zealot +2 naturalize, this configuration seems to flow the best.

why are the TS dragon players moving away from luquatus? is this a new trend in dragon? if so there really isnt a need for the 1 gaea's blessing.

[ForceofWill]

not exactly not all players don't play laquatus. the blessing is nice to have just incase.

[scrumdogg]

It seems many players are moving away from Laquatus because it can 'fizzle' against players who have any sort of anti-decking strategy in place. After generating a gazillion mana & succesfully comboing which would you prefer - you having a 1/3 animated merfolk legend in play & your opponent with a fully stocked deck or The Sliver Queen of Tastiness & her gazillion 1/1 tokens ready to come play next turn? Or the Plated Slagbomb or The Best Fatty Ever Printed & Friends?

[ForceofWill]

It's one card and there are still dragon decks that run laquatus.

[scrumdogg]

There are decks that still run Laquatus, but I think he's a better sideboard card - for those poor unprepared bastards that will now lose Game 2 to the Combo. The cutting edge players seem to be moving away from Ambassador because the cutting edge non-Dragon players are prepped & ready for him..... Classic action-reaction evolution & metagame shifting.

[ForceofWill]

alright then what to replace it with?

[kirdape3]

Whatever happened to running an instant speed drawer that targets them (if there is one) to Compulsion for (oh that card) and then deck them in response to the Blessing trigger?

[TheKirdApe]

Am I missing something? I don't recall seeing any targetable instant speed card drawer in dragon. ???

[ForceofWill]

other than ancestral but that's only the type 1 build (duh :p ).

[Artowis]

//NAME: UG Madness
// Mana
4 Yavimaya Coast
4 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Forest
6 Island
// Draw
2 Intuition
3 Deep Analysis
4 Brainstorm
// Counters
4 Force of Will
4 Circular Logic
// Creatures
2 Wonder
3 Roar of the Wurm
4 Arrogant Wurm
4 Aquamoeba
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Basking Rootwalla

Stolen right out of 1.x w/ inspiration from JP. :D Pretty self explanatory, play critters, smash face, counter evil stuff, GG.

[juventus]

//NAME: UG Madness
// Mana
4 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Yavimaya Coast
3 Forest
5 Island
// Draw
3 Intuition
2 Deep Analysis
4 Carefull Study
// Counters
2 Stifle (or daze)
4 Force of Will
4 Circular Logic
// Creatures
1 Wonder
1 Anger
3 Roar of the Wurm
4 Arrogant Wurm
3 Aquamoeba
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Basking Rootwalla

I've actually played this deck about 5 or so tournaments a while ago in 1.5 .

Brainstorm is no good since careful study pwns it. You get an extra card and pitch shit.

Also, 6 fetches and 2 painlands is probably better than what you have now. I feel A splash for anger is necessary.

[Joe Eigo]

is waterfront bouncer too slow ? i can imagin it is good enough with dreadnaughts and other big critters flowing around. or is it sideboard stuff?

[Artowis]

Careful Study is good in other Madness decks, in this case I prefer Brainstorm though. It helps stabilize the shaky ass mana base, which is the main problem.

Bouncer is a good SB option.

[juventus]

Quote (Artowis @ April 07 2004,7:36)
Careful Study is good in other Madness decks, in this case I prefer Brainstorm though. It helps stabilize the shaky ass mana base, which is the main problem.

Bouncer is a good SB option.

what makes it shaky ass? It's only 2 colors! and there are ZERO spells that require more than one colored mana (besides Arrogant Wurm and FOW hard cast)

[Artowis]

oh.my.god.

Have you EVER played UG Madness in T2 or 1.x? If you have, you would know UG has one of the shakiest mana bases in existence.

Main issues: You always need 2-3 land or you die
You always need U AND G or you die
You can't just keep 2 land hands (Unless it has brainstorm or something), because god forbid you don't draw more mana.

[Everything man]

When you play 6 fetches, 2 pain, 4 duals (12 ways to get U/G) It doesn't seem as though that would be a problem. and with 21 lands, 3 should happen often eough, especially with Study, cause you just discard a Rootwalla, Roar, or something of the like istead of a land that you might draw.

In other words, Study owns Brainstorm.

[juventus]

Also, the Careful Study digs deeper than Brainstorm (unless you fetch).

[Artowis]

Also, the Careful Study digs deeper than Brainstorm (unless you fetch).

Do you know what 'dig' means? It means number of cards you've gone down into your library. It doesn't matter that your putting cards back.

Brainstorm goes 3 cards deep and Study goes 2.


In other words, Study owns Brainstorm.

In other words, you haven't played the deck and are talking out of your ass.

[Zilla]

Also, the Careful Study digs deeper than Brainstorm (unless you fetch).
This is absurd. Perhaps you're misusing the term "dig", but the math here is pretty simple. Shuffle or no, Brainstorm digs 3 cards deep. Careful Study digs 2 cards deep. 3 is more than 2. This isn't rocket surgery.

Careful Study draws more, but it doesn't dig more. I've tried both, and Brainstorm adds a level of consistency that makes it a much stronger choice in my opinion.

EDIT: Artowis beat me to the punch.

[WertyAcid]

Brainstorm does dig more when it is cast. However, after 2 more draw steps, with brainstorm you will have dug through 3 cards; with careful study you will have dug through 4 cards. Popping a fetch immedietly after the brainstorm will cause brainstorm to dig further (5 cards). Discarding and then casting a deep analysis with the careful study will allow you to dig even further (6 cards).

[steppenelf]

I would say that once you start running 8 counters, brainstorm starts to be a lot better. The T1 version could never support careful study because it only ran 4 walla and 2 deep to pitch, I don't count arrogant because you can't cast it 1st turn. With the addition of roars and another deep, careful study starts to get a lot better. If I were to play U/G, I would probably avoid roars, at least MD, in order to lessen the damage that graveyard hate causes. They could be boarded in when necessary. Roar gets a lot worse when you start playing against deed, chain of vapor, tradewind, keg, etc. That would also make Intuition less effective though. I haven't played the deck much in 1.5 but I played it almost the entire time it was t2 legal, and a bit in extended. I wouldn't recommend more than 2 Intuition though.

[juventus]

I'm pretty sure that "dig" means how much closer you are getting to the bottom of your deck (or any other card besides the top few). When you play a carefull study instead of a brainstorm, you are getting every card in your deck a turn faster (except for the first 3 cards). Again, I'll state that I am pretty sure this is what "dig" means in Magic terms...

I do now realize that brainstorm is better card advantage...

It's up to you...

[kirdape3]

Sigh. Literally having built the port with JP, I am qualified to speak on the deck's construction and general handling characteristics.

First off, you really are going to want 4 Wasteland. This isn't Bazaar.dec, this a deck built around it's disruptive capabilities first and foremost. Everything in the deck that isn't a creature either finds you the things to annoy the other guy with (Brainstorm, Deep Analysis to go find counters or Null Rod in Type One), or makes entire categories of their deck irrelevant (re: Wonder against random aggro decks).

Secondly, what in God's name are you doing having enough mana to cast Roar of the Wurm? You should be pitching every extra land past the third to your madness outlets for extra damage. That makes Roar quite useless - you'll never ever cast it if you're playing the deck properly. This isn't 1.x where you can afford to be a lot slower in anticipation of matchups where you'll win the attrition battles. If you try that here, you'll die horribly to FCG. As it is the matchup's ridiculously difficult.

Intuition's also right at the edge of the upper bound for mana. If I have three mana, that's bluffing (or Madness-ing) an Arrogant Wurm, not finding some random cards like Roar that you'll only cast if you've already won or lost.

So. You've cut these so far:

-4 Yavimaya Coast (not entirely needed if you're running Wasteland)
-3 Roar of the Wurm
-2 Intuition

Now, what to add? Wasteland is a no-brainer over Coast. You're going to want a third Wonder, since you're engaged in a race against FCG and other aggro decks and Wonder makes it really hard to lose such a race. Four slots. I'd assume that Stifle is a pretty good choice over the Null Rod in Type One - you have to have SOMETHING to beat Dragon and Landstill with.

Here's the problem. This deck was developed as a metagame foil to a very specific metagame: Columbus, otherwise known as the land of Workshop Slavery. Fully 1/3 of that metagame was that particular deck, which we destroy completely. I think the combined record for all three participants of the deck (Doug "The Beautiful Girl Soldier of Thunder and Courage" Linn, Rian "The Original Nut-Low All Star" Litchard, and JP "The Polluted" Meyer) with this deck against Slaver was what, 10-2? The other matchups? 8-6-1, including a pair of mirrors between myself and JP. We just chose the best deck to obliterate Slavery. It is NOT proving as solid against the rest of the field, and I do not advocate it's usage in 1.5 much at all. The metagame isn't right for it.

[Garvman]

there seem to be 2 threads on the same exact topic here.... arn't we supposed to avoid that?

[Artowis]

Juv. Look, Dig = How far you go into your library. It still doesn't matter your putting cards back, because you drew the 3 to begin with.

Ok. I can agree with the Wasteland thing, but I disagree with you on FCG being a bad match-up. All your critters are bigger and you have counters. so odds are they're not going to combo out.

@ROTW comment. Fair enough, maybe I am playing it too much like the 1.x models, I simply wanted some large creatures against Aggro and such.

@ Intuition. Ok, cut them for Stifle or whatever. heh

@Garv. That's why your thread is closed.

[FakeSpam]

I think garv was talking about this thread (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2377)

Anyway.

[Garvman]

I think garv was talking about this thread (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2377)

Anyway.
Correct!


my 2 cents:
Brainstorm is infinetly better than careful study because it is an instant. nuff said. Although, careful study does have it's uses in a madness deck.

[Artowis]

My mistake then, I simply saw Kird's response to his thread and I assumed that was what. Oh well.

[Zilla]

@Kird:

All due respect, I have to disagree with your post's conclusion. I actually agree with a lot of what you said leading up to it. Wasteland is indispensable, and certainly belongs in the deck, in my opinion. As for the Roar/Intuition engine, I don't know that I've had enough solid playtesting with a build running it to know for sure, but your arguments against it seem sound. I could see maindecking the Secret of Steel considering it strengthens certain problem matchups, and has carried its weight against aggro in T1.

In any case, the place where I heartily disagree is that the deck is too heavily metagamed to be viable in 1.5. I've been doing a lot of testing with it against various matchups and I think it has an extreme amount of potential. It's proven extremely versatile and stable. The fact that it loses very little from the transition from T1, and the fact that nearly all decks are generally slower in this format makes it a very viable deck option. Just because it was originally developed as a metagame foil does not automatically rule out its playability in an entirely different format.

With regards to your FCG analysis, I have similar qualms. I presume you're basing your assessment of the matchup based on T1 versions of the decks. I could see how this deck might find a T1 FCG build a very difficult matchup, because FCG can just combo out for the win. Without power, though, FCG is significantly slower and less reliable in comboing off. It's still very fast, but there's a much better chance for Madness to get Circular Logic online before the FCG player gets enough mana for Food Chain. This is very significant.

Artowis and I playtested several games, me playing FCG, him playing U/G Madness, and the results weren't nearly as bad for him as you're suggesting. If anything, I'd say it's about 50/50. If Madness is able to counter the early combo pieces (either Chain or Recruiter), then it goes to the long game. FCG really doesn't like the long game so much. Madness' creature's are bigger, and FCG has a really difficult time getting around a resolved dog. With Wonder in the mix, Madness has plenty of game against FCG. Chump blocking Piledrivers, countering bombs, and flying dogs to the face make this a winnable matchup for sure.

With proper tuning and metagaming, I think this build shows great potential to succeed in the format.

[ryan1989]

Why don't you run Bazaars ?

[FyndhornBrownie]

Why don't you run Bazaars ?
Some people can't afford bazaars. In case you haven't checked, they run about 100 dollars apiece. Just so you know.

[Zilla]

That's not the point though. This deck doesn't include Bazaars because it doesn't want them. It can't afford the tempo loss caused by Bazaars, and it already packs plenty of search and draw. This deck is based on JP Meyers' Type 1 UG Madness build which has been performing rather well lately. His build doesn't run Bazaar, and neither does this one.

[ryan1989]

I wasn't condemning him for not running Bazaars. I just wanted to know why he wasn't running Bazaars ( like Godzilla's post)

[troopatroop]

Would survival of the fittest make the cut for U/G? I always thought it would be pretty good... chains of rootwallas are cool. I think that it might not work as well as I would hope, but does anyone think survival would be good?

Edit: grammar, thats for you diablos :;):

[kirdape3]

Oh it's a fine deck, and it's going to be really hard to lose to the control players. This is good. Even though they have 4 Swords and Fire/Ice most of the time, you will just smack them with a Rootwalla a couple of times and that'll be good enough. It's just that FCG is really fast even without the combo kill, and Sharpshooter and/or Siege-Gang is really strong.

[Zilla]

The testing I've done with FCG so far has proven to be not nearly as bad as you're assuming, Kird. I was running something nearly identical to Artowis' build at the beginning of the post (but with Wastelands), and the matches went about 50/50. Recently, I've dropped the Intuition/ROTW engine for +1 Wonder/+4 Stifle, which can only improve that matchup.

A lot of FCG's biggest threats are easily dealt with via Stifle, from SGC to Lackey to Piledriver to Matron to Incinerator to Recruiter to Ringleader, etc. In conjunction with the rest of the countermagic, and the evasion provided by Wonder, I think this is a thoroughly winnable matchup. If it remains a big problem, there are a wide array of SB tools available. BEB, Chill, and Secret of Steel all seem like thoroughly viable options.

In the coming weeks I'm going to be doing more comprehensive testing against the upper-tier decks, and tinkering with the SB to maximize its efficiency. The early testing looks very very positive.

One thing I'm considering, which may be a dismal failure, is running ESG's for additional accelleration. It seems like the ability to dodge Drain and other countermagic with first turn Dogs and 'Moebas would be exceedingly beneficial, and has the added bonus of getting Circular Logic online a turn faster. I haven't decided exactly what to cut for them as of yet, but I'll be testing them as well.

I'll post any meaningful results as they occur.

[Bongo]

Along with Sword of Fire and Ice, Lightning Greaves seem to be very effective in this type of deck. Anyone tested the card?

[kirdape3]

We never tested it for Type One because you had Null Rod, and the two of those cards are not a combo. Here they may be effective, but what are you cutting for them? Stifle? No sir. The rest of the deck is rock solid. And the board's pretty stable as well.

[Bongo]

What's your current decklist, Kird? I think the first two decklists posted in this thread aren't identical with your decklist.

[kirdape3]

I haven't fully thought out a board yet for it - the rest of the deck's pretty obvious.

4x Basking Rootwalla
4x Wild Mongrel
4x Aquameoba
4x Arrogant Wurm
3x Wonder

4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Circular Logic
3x Stifle
3x Deep Analysis

4x Wasteland
4x Tropical Island
4x Polluted Delta
6x Island
5x Forest

Sideboard:

4x Back to Basics
4x Ray of Revelation (take that, Dragon boy)
3x Sword of Fire and Ice
3x Phantom Centaur
1x Wonder

Against aggro decks, you're going to want to take out the puny Basking Rootwalla for the mighty Phantom Centaur and the last Wonder. Stifle most likely leaves for Sword of Fire and Ice, as well. Ray of Revelation is used over Oxidize because there aren't as many scary artifacts as there are enchantments. Back to Basics is a no-brainer here, since you have 11 basics as opposed to say 3 or 4.

[ns2973]

I don't know, isn't there anything out there better than aquameoba? I would almost rather play serendib even tho it doesn't let you discard stuff it is better and flies on its own. I just think we have optioins that the type 2 version didn't have and we need to look into them more.

[kirdape3]

Name me a secondary Madness outlet that isn't slow as balls and has 3 power, and I'll play it. Until then, Aquameoba stands.

[Zilla]

I don't know, isn't there anything out there better than aquameoba? I would almost rather play serendib even tho it doesn't let you discard stuff it is better and flies on its own. I just think we have optioins that the type 2 version didn't have and we need to look into them more.
The 1.5 build isn't based on the Type 2 deck, it's based on the proven Type 1 variant. Aquamoeba really is the best choice, because it's the only other 2cc or less green or blue creature that acts as a Madness outlet and is a reasonably high-powered beatstick.

Serendib is an awful choice here for a couple reasons - first, its flying is redundant because the deck is running Wonder for the same purpose. Second, it cost 3, which makes it too slow. The deck is heavily reliant upon having a resolved Madness outlet in play by turn 2. Third and most important, it's not a Madness outlet. I know I'm stating the obvious here, but the Aquamoeba's pitch ability provides an absolutely essential additional Madness outlet. You'll notice the deck isn't running Bazaars; if you drop Moeba you'd only be running 4 Madness outlets, which isn't even remotely enough.

[steppenelf]

Not to mention that Aquamoeba sure was good in type 2... and is good in extended... and is the only other possibility for the slot.

[disrupted]

Hey why don't you guys argue some more about defining, "Dig" that way everybody who reads this thread
will run screaming.

The deck lists I am seeing look great. I would take Stifle over any other option also as it is such a versatile 1cc. Aqua is so much cheaper than Bazar. And Bazar does not beat for three.

What is in the decklist to deal with a Tradewind? This seems to be the real problem in my humble opinion. I guess you could just save all your counters for him against ATS. That and watch out for Spore frog locks.

:ghostface:

[kirdape3]

...Or you could just counter Survival and then roll them before they find a secondary answer. Sure, they have a really good game against you if Survival's down. But if they don't, most of their defenses aren't all that good.

[Zilla]

Truth. The only truly relevant threat in ATS is the Survival. Save your counters and/or your Stifles for it and you're in good shape.

[LunchBox]

@GodzillA:
Any data yet from the playtesting against the top tier decks for this Madness build? I'm thinking that U/G Madness could be a good option against a good part of the meta.

Also, was a decision ever made regarding ESG in the deck? I also thought that they would be good to have to power out the first turn Madness outlet. And they wouldn't be too useless since they can be thrown away to the Mongrel or Aquamoeba for pump.

[LinkXwing]

IMHO:

Is FoW really that good in this deck?

*dodges lots of wooden/glass objects flying at him*

I realize that the deck needs 8 counters. Circular logic seems the best synergist choice for the deck but FoW (although an auto-inclusion in any U deck these days) just doesn't seem to work that well in this particular deck. U/G Madness is an aggro-control deck. It doesn't have to counter everything, just a few key spells in the first 1-4 turns while it lays down the beats as it passes the fundemental turn. It doesn't have to stop the opponents fundemental turn, just slow it down a little. I think FoW hurts in both the beats area (when you pitch aquameoba/deepA and the fact that you lose 2 cards that could have been used to pump the mongrel/'meoba) AND the slowing area (pitching another FoW/logic/stifle). Madness needs cards in it's hand, that is what the deepA's are for, doesn't it hurt to lose 2 of those cards to counter 1 spell. I personally advocate Daze in this deck over FoW because of the fact that you don't have to ditch another card, you keep the same number of cards in you hand to drop to mongrel/'meoba, you never need to have more than 3 lands in play so the temp loss is minimal and if the opponent know that you have a force spike - like card they will play around it which will constantly keep you 1 turn ahead on the beats.

U/G's control aspect is more of the threat of a counter more than actually having the counter because it will deter the opponent from playing spells just long enough for you to steal the win. (At least in T2) when an opponent had one U open I would always have my game breaking spell in hand but would be afraid to cast it for fear of the logic. Madness players always keeping U open was a pain in the ass.

T2 U/G Madness always had a core/standard build like this:

4 Rootwalla
4 Mongrel
4 Arrogant Wurm
4 Roar of the Wurm
4 (Open Slots)
4 Careful Study
4 Aquameoba
4 Circular Logic
4 Wonder
2 Deep Analysis

Near the end of U/G's reign those open slots turned into unsommons. Extreme tech for the mirror plus blocker removal against pretty much the whole field, but the main thing it did was provide another spell to fear when the U/G player had one U open. I believe the janky unsummon actually worked really well in that open slot and cound do really well again in the 1.5 build where are format is creature dominant and also helps clear the lackies/warchief's of FCG, gives game against dragon, and clears the factory of blockers Landstill has, makes the tradewinds and seedborn's less effective, plus is funny sh!t against a berserked 'tog. Now Stifle fills pretty much the same function at the one U slot but Unsummon might also make the cut upping the feared spells at the one U slot up to 12.

Besides: As decided earlier - Roar of the Wurm doesn't make the cut in 1.5 due to it's high cc and variety of ways to remove it.

Just a few suggestions.


EDIT: Also, the card pitched to FoW doesn't make the graveyard fatter so Logic becomes less useful.

[Garvman]

force of will is required, I think, because casting beaters required tapping out, and FOW is the only way to still be able to counter effectivly after that.

[ns2973]

I also think its required. This deck taps out quite often and even if you pitch an aquamoeba, its to stop something obviously more game threatening than said aquamoeba or you wouldn't bother trying to stop it right?

[LinkXwing]

I also think its required. This deck taps out quite often and even if you pitch an aquamoeba, its to stop something obviously more game threatening than said aquamoeba or you wouldn't bother trying to stop it right?
True, however, this is the mentality of a control deck/player. Aggro-control doesn't need to hold back counters (most of the time) it just wants to stall, not stop the opponent.

I remember remember reading an article a few weeks ago that went something like this:

Keeper - THE control deck - would never think of countering an opponents merchant scroll. Merchant scroll always went to get ancestral which the keeper player would subsequently counter (if that is what they felt was threatening). However, an aggro-control (say Gro-A-Tog) player would almost always counter the merchant scroll because of the tempo boost they would get from countering it NOW as opposed to the next turn. The GAT player just want to stall the opponents game plan, not stop it completely.

With the opponent playing with FoW it becomes more of a question of whether they have FoW rather than how to play around it. Do you or don't you is what it comes down to. However Daze/Force Spike people can easily play around. This is what the aggro-control player wants. They don't really mind if the Wrath of God (using WoG as an example) comes or not. It either gets Dazed on turn 4 or they play around it and cast it on turn 5, which by that time they should be dead already. Resolving 1 turn later is just as good as having it countered. You WANT the opponent to play around it.

FoW vs. Daze in my opinion:

FoW:
Pros:
Can't be played around, the spell WILL get countered.
The deck has plenty of blue cards to pitch, not an issue.
(Arguably) the best counter in the game. (I think Mana drain edges this out)
Can be played while tapped out.
Life loss is negligable.
Is still good late game

Cons:
Lose 2 cards in hand in a deck that relies on have cards in hand to discard.
Tempo loss from pitching the card could hurt the deck and leave the deck w/o any cards in hand.
The deck (when played correctly) will NEVER hard cast it.
What you pitch to it might/should be extremely useful in the very next turn. Madness generally runs out of cads quickly let alone when it starts removing sh!t from the game in addition to all of that.
It removes sh!t from the game therefore anti-synergistic with Circular Logic and DeepA(when pitched).
You are NEVER getting the pitched card back

Daze:
Pros:
Can be played while tapped out.
You WANT people to play around it.
Is easily hardcast however, shouldn't ever be done.
Keeps the same number of cards in hand and lets extra land on the table be used and then bounced back to hand to be discarded again.
Tempo loss is easily recoverable.
Under rare circumstances, can be used to save a trop from a wasteland.

Cons:
Is easily played around.
Is not a "sure" counter.
Minor tempo lost in turns 1 and 2 if cast that early.
It sucks late game (this SHOULD be negligable though).
Is requires and Island in play.

[kirdape3]

Force of Will doesn't depend on having an Island in play - which is not a given with U/G Madness. It's literally the last card besides Brainstorm that I'd cut in the deck.

[LinkXwing]

Force of Will doesn't depend on having an Island in play

True, however, in 1.5 with the addition of duals, that point really should be moot. 4 Fetches + 4 Trops + 6 Islands generally means you will have one in play at the time. (Although I admit wastelands against you hurts this theory but them accing a wasteland slows them down too.)

[LunchBox]

Force of Will is just more flexible in the meta. Daze depends on too much that you can't control (Islands in play, opponent with open mana, etc.). If you feel that Daze should be in the deck, then do some playtesting and let us know.

So, back to my original quesitons:
How does this deck stand up to the current meta?
Does Elvish Spirit Guide deserve slots in this deck?

[kirdape3]

It loses badly to Food Chain - they'll go turn 1 Lackey and you get rolled. Without four Stifles main (which isn't terribly hard) then Dragon rolls you. You're even against Landstill since they only really have Swords and Disk for creature control (and you mash their manlands if you have anything on the board at all), and you beat randomness VERY well. ATS is pretty annoying for you as well, but that's due to you not being able to stop them from having a whole lot of mana.

That being said, if you have half a brain you can do well with this deck.

ESG is awful because you actually want to pitch cards for a reason - you don't need speed to drop the creatures anyways since you'll want to Stifle something or otherwise be annoying.

[hhatleejr]

How can you run this deck with out Bazaar. Especially with Intuitions to go get squee, the synergy is insane. To me, Madness without Bazaar is just an improved type 2 deck.

4 Wild Mongrel
4 Basking Rootwalla
3 Arrogant Wurm
2 Roar of the Wurm
4 Squee Goblin Naboob
1 Wonder
1 Anger

4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
2 Intuition
2 Deep Analysis
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Counterspell(mana drain)

4 Tropical Island
3 Yav. Coast
1 Taiga
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Straind
7 Island
4 Forest

[LunchBox]

That's not the point though. This deck doesn't include Bazaars because it doesn't want them. It can't afford the tempo loss caused by Bazaars, and it already packs plenty of search and draw. This deck is based on JP Meyers' Type 1 UG Madness build which has been performing rather well lately. His build doesn't run Bazaar, and neither does this one.
Read the thread. It helps answer questions.

[scrumdogg]

Sideboard:

4x Back to Basics
4x Ray of Revelation (take that, Dragon boy)
3x Sword of Fire and Ice
3x Phantom Centaur
1x Wonder

Against aggro decks, you're going to want to take out the puny Basking Rootwalla for the mighty Phantom Centaur and the last Wonder. Stifle most likely leaves for Sword of Fire and Ice, as well. Ray of Revelation is used over Oxidize because there aren't as many scary artifacts as there are enchantments. Back to Basics is a no-brainer here, since you have 11 basics as opposed to say 3 or 4.

I haven't had any real issues with aggro, since my guys fly, any time I've played U/G Madness. My concern (and the concern of many people in the thread) is and should be the Big Three - Dragon, FCG, and Landstill. My observation, from experience and play style, is that Centaur should be Krosan Reclamation. Yes, the deck probably loses some tempo element but becomes much more controlling - which it needs versus combo. The ability to unstack FCG, hose Dragon on the stack (and it can't be Duressed effectively, see also Ray of No Duressing...), and can recur control elements versus Landstill (counters, BTB, Stifle). The spectrum of how aggro & how control an aggro-control deck should be depends on your match up, I believe.

[kirdape3]

I'm really not all that concerned about the FCG stack so much as I am Goblin Lackey. If I can stop that, then good beats. If I can't, then I'm not winning that game regardless since Lackey's such a ridiculous tempo swing. I can actually pull out of a stacked FCG deck since well Recruiter's only a 1/1 dork.

I'm firmly of the belief that narrow as the card may be, 4 Stifles may be needed in this deck (where the Null Rods were in Type 1).

[scrumdogg]

Stifle stops Lackey & friends for a crucial turn, turns off Dragon mid-combo, and can annoy Landstill plus it pitches to FoW in an emergency. Hmmmm, would you run it maindeck or sideboard, though? If it has all those advantages, why would it not be maindeck? That way, the K Recs could still be boarded (since Stifle is yet another tasty recur target...).

[Athos]

Why not Nimble Mongoose? I will not claim much experience with U/g Madness in 1.5, but I MUCH preferred U/G threshold in type 2. Threshold is so easy to get, and nimble mongoose is one of the best beaters in the game. It also plays turn 1 versus FCG and says "fuckyou lackey."

[kirdape3]

Splash damage on Survival and Dragon. I don't need to have my 3/3s and 4/4s turn into 1/1s mid-combat because of a random Tormod's Crypt or something.

[Nocturnal]

With 4 Back to Basics, 4 Ray of Revelation, and 3 optional Krosan Reclamation, what are you sideboarding out against dragon?
Wonder and Deep? Rootwalla?

[scrumdogg]

In my experience playing Madness versus Dragon (admittedly not U/G...) I came to the conclusion that Arrogant Wurm was horrible against Dragon. I came to this realization after A) they animated it out of my graveyard and ground my attack to a halt...multiple times. It's tough to be an aggro-control deck when your aggro plan gets monkeyfucked by YOUR OWN creature. B) I tapped out EOT to put it into play & they went off in response. Sigh. Stupid combo... It's very difficult when you HAVE to keep mana up, for bluffing if nothing else. The same rationale (no tapping out...) would propmpt me to side out the Deep A's, the Wonders (blocking? what blocking? they play combo!) and the Wurms. The Rootwallas come out free (or nearly so) and do a fine job of beating down as I stop them going off. And I have never been terrified of a Lizard reanimated out of my yard...

[ns2973]

I agree w/ kird that stifle should be mainboard if you want any success against the big three besides landstill. We have to find spots for it.

[LunchBox]

Kird's list on an earlier page already has 3 Stifles MD. If it's necessary to get a 4th in there, then I would think that you could remove a Cicular Logic for it. However, I don't really think 4 would be necessary. Shouldn't 3 be enough?

[Garvman]

I think 3 is perfect.

[ns2973]

I think three is fine if you play one in the board.

[Nocturnal]

1)
If you are worried about turn 1 Lackeys, then Blue Elemental Blast is your card.
It allows you to slow play Gas until your Swords are online.
It also has some splash damage on Dragon.

2)
What about switching around some of the fetch lands (or adding more) so that you can fetch basic forests when BTB is in the deck?

3)
What about switching Centaurs for Trolls? Trolls are slightly worse against aggro but much better against control, Landstill in particular.

4)
Too bad there is not enough room in the sideboard for 4 Squee and 4 Bazaar to just outdraw control.

[kirdape3]

BEB is a fine card, but Chill just autowrecks the enemy FCG deck. Hey look, I have a blocker and then Chill ya. Why would I worry about Sligh otherwise? I have many advantages creatures and 8 counterspells to protect them.

What would I add to fetch with? Most often I need more blue than green, anyways.

The board is pretty much completely wrong anyways. I would check to see what you were playing against in the tournament, then board accordingly.

Bazaar is just a different form of advantage (think Chill and Back to Basics, rendering their deck useless through mana starvation), and what do you board out for them?

[Everything man]

A little off topic of the current coversation, but...
Kirds list, and most of the others, seem as though they have one problem: A mediocre late game. I know that madness doesn't really want the game to last that long, but you can easily improve it to allow yourself some room if the game does go a little longer. If madness HAS to win really quickly, you will run into trouble alot. With a few ajustments, It can play aggro/control well enough that it is decently fast with an at least playable late game. I dunno if anything I just said made sense, but maybe the decklist I'm proposing may help...

//Land:
4 Tropical Island
4 Polluted delta
7 Island
6 forest

//1cc
4 basking rootwalla
4 Brainstorm
3 stifle

//2cc
4 Wild mongrel
4 Aquamoeba

//3cc
2 Intuition
4 Circular logic

//4cc
3 Deep alanysis
1 wonder

//5cc
4 Arrogant wurm
4 Force of will

//6cc
3 Roar of the wurm

Of course, the Mana costs are misleading in this deck, but...
It doesn't look that much different, but the addition of Roars and intuitions make a little difference that, I think, helps the deck overall.

[kirdape3]

...Except that in order to actually do enough damage to win against decks that already have a better late game, you have to pitch lands to Aquameoba and Wild Mongrel. If you have enough lands to both Intuition and hold up mana for Logic, then the issue's already been decided against most decks. You have to come out of the gate firing, and maximize your damage with this deck.

[LunchBox]

I've been wondering if we could find room for this new card from Fifth Dawn:

Early Frost - 1U
Instant
Tap up to three target lands.
Common

It's a virtual Time Walk and a great tempo card in a tempo deck. Cast it during your opponent's upkeep during the first couple of turns, basically send him back to turn one. It's blue, so it can pitch to FoW, and it wouldn't be a terrible draw later since you can throw it away to pump the Dog or the 'Moeba. Don't know what to remove for it, which is the biggest problem. Guess we could discuss whether or not it's worth it, then figure out to change if it's worth it.

[ns2973]

I think kird is right, the goal of aggro and aggro control both is not to let a mid game occur, focus on winning early b/c if it is really that late game you've probably lost anyway.

[kirdape3]

There's nothing to cut, even if it was worth a slot (which it isn't in a field with Force of Will). Madness is a very tight deck as it is - there's only four slots in all of it that are in any way negotiable.

[LunchBox]

Early Frost isn't an idea for the deck to have a midgame. It's an attempt to end the game as soon as possible. I'm advocating it's use to try and "take away" the opponents 2nd or 3rd turns to try and end the opponents game as soon as possible.

However, I do understand that the deck is tight. I couldn't think of anything to pull out either, so that's understandable. I'm going to try and test it somehow.

[AzN Lightning]

How about the addition of Troll Ascestic to the main? It was included in Oshawa Stompy, so why not this deck. It beats Hulk Smash/Landstill/Keeper/Trenches in the face and as a Hulk Smash/Landstill/Keeper/Trenches player I have huge problems dealing with a Troll via disk or deed.

[Peter_Rotten]

I merged the two UG Madness threads. :)

[kirdape3]

In response to the Troll Ascetic in Madness question, I'd just wonder why it's better than the other 3-drop in the deck, that being Arrogant Wurm. The mana's easier, Wurm itself is a lot bigger, and as a result is a faster clock. Could I add that it also provides two extra damage through an Aquameoba or one extra through a Wild Mongrel?

[AzN Lightning]

I've been testing this deck recently and here's my list currently:

x4 Bazaar of Baghdad
x4 Wooded Foothills
x4 Taiga
x4 Tropical Island
x2 Volcanic Island
x2 Forest
x3 Wasteland
x4 Basking Rootwalla
x4 Arrogant Wurm
x4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
x2 Troll Ascestic
x4 Wild Mongrel
x4 Elvish Spirit Guide
x2 Violent Eruption
x4 Circular Logic
x1 Roar of Wurm
x2 Anger
x2 Wonder
x4 Careful Study

I added Troll Ascestic cause its a house against Landstill/Hulk and is good against most other decks. Also, how about playing Survival as a third engine to search for Anger and Wonder, etc.?

[Carlos El Salvador]

My Madness deck is looking pritty optimal in 1.5. I had to, unfourtenetly, take out all reminence of burning in face, other than hasty goodness because of the loss of LED. I'll post a list soon.

[Peter_Rotten]

once again, merged more Madness threads. Stop the madness please.

[steppenelf]

it is important to note that U/G madness and Aggro Bazaar Madness are two different decks...

[Bongo]

In the Gay/RW thread in the open forum, Kirdape3 said this:


U/G Madness in Type 1 is a superior deck to Fish in almost every respect - speed, power, resiliency. Why not take this modification (adding white to a base deck) and implementing it on a deck of superior power?

Similar to DaveHernandez approach to Gay/R, I added white to the U/G Madness deck. Take a look at this:


Triple Madness by Bongo (edited)

4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Aquamoeba
4 Arrogant Wurm
2 Wonder

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Circular Logic
4 SWORDS
2 Stifle
2 Deep Analysis

4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
2 Tundra
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath


As you can see, the manabase is much more vulnerable to Wasteland right now. On the other hand, Swords really takes this deck to another dimension because it is able to take down annoying creatures (including Worldgorger) at the low cost of W and drastically improves any matchup involving opposing creatures.

Does the power of Swords and the added versatility in the sideboard justify the more vulnerable manabase?

[Zilla]

-2 Stifle, -1 Tundra, -2 Savannah.
+1 Wonder, +2 Polluted Delta, +1 Island, +1 Forest.

Not sure whether Swords is worth it, but it deserves testing. A red splash for anger (minus the white splash) warrants testing as well.

[DavidHernandez]

Wow, 8 Fetchlands is a lot. Still, if it allows you to get the color you need then it's worth it. Stifle's may be more important in this deck if you change the mana base the way you suggest. You will need to Stifle the opponents Wastelands.

Running 8 White sources may be too much for only 4 White cards, as Godzilla suggested. I also like the Wonder.

As I mentioned in a different thread, I only played Type 2 Madness so bear with me: could you drop the Deep Anal's instead of the Stifles? I understand the synergy of Deep Anal with Madness, but with the mana base changed I really think that the Stifle's are important.

dave.

[Zilla]

The Stifles are less important because you're now running a couple of basic lands, which is all the deck really needs to function. (3 technically, but as long as you've got the two basics and any other land you're doing fine.) The added fetches ensure the ability to find the basics. Furthermore, Stifle is contrary to the deck's strategy, which, aside from Circular Logic, doesn't want cards requiring it to keep untapped mana.

[Bongo]

The Stifles are less important because you're now running a couple of basic lands, which is all the deck really needs to function. (3 technically, but as long as you've got the two basics and any other land you're doing fine.) The added fetches ensure the ability to find the basics. Furthermore, Stifle is contrary to the deck's strategy, which, aside from Circular Logic, doesn't want cards requiring it to keep untapped mana.
My list was just a very raw attempt to incorporate the white splash. Please note the following changes:

-2 Savannah
+1 Forest
+1 Island

The basic lands offer you some protection from nonbasic-hate, although you're still vulnerable.

However, I wouldn't take out the Stifles. Even if Stifle is "contrary to the strategy" as you say, they deserve to be included because they simply win games against FCG and Dragon. On top of that, they protect you from Wasteland and can help in many awkward situations.

Dave: I wouldn't cut Deep Anals either, because they provide a much needed source of card-drawing. They increase the chance of drawing into another Wonder or Swords. When stuck on two lands, DA can help you to draw that crucial third land. You don't have to make a decision between Stifle and DA, you can have them both :laugh:

The white splash is better suited because Swords provides an element that wasn't there before (creature removal), whereas red only gives you more speed. Although the change to the original deck is only minor, Swords gives the deck a new dimension in that the opponent has to be ready for another type of disruption. Not only must he fear the various counters, but now he also has to keep the possibility of an untimely Swords in mind (especially true for the Dragon player).

Anyone got ideas for a sideboard?

[DavidHernandez]

I'm curious about your testing so far with the STP's. Have you taken it to any tourney's?

This looks like it has a lot of potential.

dave.

[Zilla]

Even if Stifle is "contrary to the strategy" as you say, they deserve to be included because they simply win games against FCG and Dragon.
Running 2 in a deck with this little draw is akin to running none at all. Furthermore, Wonder also wins games against FCG, and you want to draw them reliably in that match, or any other aggro matchup for that matter. If you're concerned with Stifle against Dragon, run 3 in the side and swap the Wonders out for them in that match.

[Magi]

Hey all

First off seeing this thread inspired me to build my own Madness deck. I traded for about 90% of the deck yesterday, and by next week it should be online.

I went for Kirdape's list on pg 4:

Madness:

4x Basking Rootwalla
4x Aquameoba
4x Wild Mongrel
4x Arrogant Wurm
3x Wonder

4x Circular Logic
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
3x Deep ANALysis
3x Stifle

4x Wasteland
4x Flooded Strand
4x Tropical Island
6x Island
5x Forest

SB://
4x B2B
4x Chill (metagame choice right here)
etc, etc...


just some questions about the build:

Stifles main VS Cunning Wish: I was wondering what anyone thought of switching the Stifles main with Cunning Wishes. Cunning Wish can fetch a Stifle from the board, as well as any other nice targets you put in there (Oxidize, Naturalize, Ray of Revelation, BEB/Hydro, or even Swords if you decide on a White splash, etc.). Also, Cunning Wish can just as easily be discarded for some extra dmg, or pitched for Force if not needed. The reason I ask is because I can't stand the fact of losing to some random Worship lock, Ensnaring Bridge rubbish or anything like that, and the utility gained by using the Wish I would think could possibly outweigh any speed benefits gained by using the Stifles main. Of course, this makes it just a tad harder to use Stifles against fetchies early on, and you'd have to shuffle the board around a bit...but I think it's worth it.

Also, if I may ask, what would the Sword of Fire and Ice be sided in against (in Kirdape's original list pg 4)? I would think something like that would be too slow against something like FCG, which can dump its hand in one turn, and the card drawing thing doesn't do much for me either, I mean why not Curiousity(a bad idea, just for example purposes)? If spot removal is needed, maybe the R/W splash would be good, but I question the actual effectiveness of SofF/I in that department. The pro Red and Blue is nice, but it doesn't stop Swords or Disk. You already fly over blockers, and can race with almost every other aggro deck. Perhaps I overlooked another use for this card?

thanks.

[Zilla]

Cunning Wish doesn't belong in UG Madness. It's far too slow. If it becomes necessary, it's likely you've already lost that game.

As for Sword of Fire and Ice, it doesn't belong in the 1.5 build either. 4x Chill and 4x BEB is the answer for decks like FCG and Sligh.

Just as a side note, I heartily endorse the following changes to Kird's decklist:

-3 Forest, 2 Island
+4 Windswept Heath, +1 Stifle

That's the list I play and it works beautifully. The added Stifle provides more utility and more FoW fodder. The additional fetches provide superior color smoothing, deckthinning, and synergy with Brainstorm. Because the deck really doesn't want any lands past the first 3, there's essentially no reason not to run a full 8 fetches here.

[LunchBox]

Just as a side note, I heartily endorse the following changes to Kird's decklist:

-3 Forest, 2 Island
+4 Windswept Heath, +1 Stifle

That's the list I play and it works beautifully. The added Stifle provides more utility and more FoW fodder. The additional fetches provide superior color smoothing, deckthinning, and synergy with Brainstorm. Because the deck really doesn't want any lands past the first 3, there's essentially no reason not to run a full 8 fetches here.

I also support these changes. I like this deck a lot. The fetches help you get your colors (which can be an issue) and it doesn't matter if the land you get later in the game (after you have 3 lands) are fetches or basics, so it's a good call.

[Ih8every1]

Hey guys don't tear my head off for this suggestion, but has anyone considered running 1 to 2 intuitions since they fetch you a wonder and card draw(deep analysis) for more damage. Plus its makes it a lot more consistent to get wonder too.

[Zilla]

It's certainly been suggested, but there are a few arguments against it: first, it's slow. Second, there are only 5 cards in your deck that actually benefit from being in the yard, unlike traditional Madness. In the early game there's a good chance you'll want to be reserving your mana for other purposes (Stifle, Circular Logic, Arrogan Wurm), and in the late game, there's a fairly high chance of Intuition being dead draws, lacking enough useful targets. Last, they're a significant Drain target, whereas pitching a Wonder to Mongrel is not.

[Bongo]

The additional fetches provide superior color smoothing, deckthinning, and synergy with Brainstorm. Because the deck really doesn't want any lands past the first 3, there's essentially no reason not to run a full 8 fetches here.
Quoted for truth. I even dare to say that this is one of the few decks that should pack 8 Fetchlands.

My Triple Madness has been changed like this:

-2 Tundra
-2 Polluted Delta
+4 Flooded Strand

The deck has been performing very well, although I haven't taken it to a tournament (yet).

Although the deck has been running very smoothly so far, the question whether 2 Stifle/Anal/Wonder is optimal still exists. It seems that one of these cards has to go in order to get the count of the other cards up to three.

Which would you cut from the maindeck: Stifle, Deep Anal or Wonder?

[Magi]

For your build, IMO I would probably cut the Stifles. Deep Anal's are necessary for drawing, because you'll lose lots of cards to discard. Wonder, while not necessary in every game, is too random for a 1 of, especially in a deck with little card draw. Stifle is pretty good, but you've got a lot of the randomness factor taken care of with the addition of Swords main, which performs some functions that the Stifle did (against Dragon and FCG for example).

8 Fetchies is pretty smooth...it even has synergy with Circular Logic! :)


Does anyone feel that they take way too much chip damage with this deck? Between Fetchies, Forces, and Deep Anal's, a deck that comes out quick from the starting gates (FCG) could put you in a bind, and even things like Landstill could hold a bunch of Bolts and F/I until you knock yourself into burn range. I've only been goldfishing so far, but quite often I find myself taking nearly double digits of self inflicted pain, so I'm asking some of the more experienced players their take on this issue.

[kirdape3]

Landstill's pretty even, and that's because you literally just get out Rootwalla and clock them with it 7 times.

The danger from FCG isn't so much that they'll kill you with 1s and 2s (you have blockers that survive their kill spells, mostly), but that Goblin Lackey will come down and ruin your whole day. You can only really beat that by racing and Wonder - you stall long enough to Falter them for 20 points.

[LunchBox]

Does anyone feel that they take way too much chip damage with this deck? Between Fetchies, Forces, and Deep Anal's, a deck that comes out quick from the starting gates (FCG) could put you in a bind, and even things like Landstill could hold a bunch of Bolts and F/I until you knock yourself into burn range. I've only been goldfishing so far, but quite often I find myself taking nearly double digits of self inflicted pain, so I'm asking some of the more experienced players their take on this issue.

If you're goldfishing this deck and you've lost more than 10 life from yourself, then you're doing something wrong. Just get your madness outlets out with 3 lands in play and smash that Goldfish's face. It shouldn't take too long to deal 20 damage with pumped up Aquamoebas, Dogs and Wurms.


Landstill's pretty even, and that's because you literally just get out Rootwalla and clock them with it 7 times.


Until they squeeze out a Disk after a counter war and Disk your Rootwalla away. Let's not oversimplify. The Landstill matchup is winnable, but it seems to depend on getting and keeping your Madness outlets on the table.

[Zilla]

The Landstill matchup is winnable, but it seems to depend on getting and keeping your Madness outlets on the table.
Every matchup depends on this, and it's by far the deck's greatest weakness. Without one of its 8 outlets in the opening grip, it's got a lot of problems. It often requires an aggressive mull to get a playable hand, and even then an StP or Bolt can ruin your day. This isn't to say it's unplayable, but if any change needs focusing on, it's that.

[LunchBox]

Every matchup depends on this, and it's by far the deck's greatest weakness. Without one of its 8 outlets in the opening grip, it's got a lot of problems. It often requires an aggressive mull to get a playable hand, and even then an StP or Bolt can ruin your day. This isn't to say it's unplayable, but if any change needs focusing on, it's that.

I agree 100%. Constantly on Saturday I would get a Dog or Aquamoeba StP'd or Fired or Disked or whatever and find 3-4 cards in my hand that I couldn't do anything with (ie Circular Logic and Arrogant Wurm). Usually during my mulliganing I kept anything that had a Madness outlet and at least 2 lands (esp. if one was a fetch).

Is there a way to fix this dependence on 8 creatures? It's possible to hold counters to use on their removal, but that requires hoping that they don't cast anything else you have to counter. Any suggestions?

[Magi]

Every matchup depends on this, and it's by far the deck's greatest weakness. Without one of its 8 outlets in the opening grip, it's got a lot of problems. It often requires an aggressive mull to get a playable hand, and even then an StP or Bolt can ruin your day. This isn't to say it's unplayable, but if any change needs focusing on, it's that.

I agree 100%. Constantly on Saturday I would get a Dog or Aquamoeba StP'd or Fired or Disked or whatever and find 3-4 cards in my hand that I couldn't do anything with (ie Circular Logic and Arrogant Wurm). Usually during my mulliganing I kept anything that had a Madness outlet and at least 2 lands (esp. if one was a fetch).

Is there a way to fix this dependence on 8 creatures? It's possible to hold counters to use on their removal, but that requires hoping that they don't cast anything else you have to counter. Any suggestions?
Kind of reminds me of Mud's reliance on the Metalworker.

Maybe a non-creature Madness outlet is necessary. I was thinking of Compulsion at first, but then I realized that Compulsion costs mana to use.


Bazaar? :(

[Zilla]

Maybe a non-creature Madness outlet is necessary.
Sticking in UG, Bazaar is about the only feasible answer. However, it goes directly against the nature of UG's setup. If you're going to add Bazaar, you might as well splash red and make classic UGR Madness, which is a totally different deck. It's also more aggro and less control, which means that it utilizes an entirely different strategy altogether.

Basically, I've given it a lot of consideration myself, and I don't see any available answers to the reliance on the 2 main creatures without splashing for another color, which makes for a totally different deck. In Type 1, this was far less of an issue, because creature removal is much much less common there. Essentially, you either deal with UG's fragility or you play a different deck.

I did try splashing black for Zombie Infestation once, since it's a solid Madness outlet that isn't prone to creature hate. It worked to an extent, but there were some problems with the mana consistency that made me abandon that course eventually. Truth be told, I didn't give it that much effort, so it's possible that some further experimentation of that route is warranted. If anyone is interested, my list looked thusly:

//NAME: BUG Madness
// Mana
2 Forest
2 Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
// Creatures
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Zombie Infestation
4 Aquamoeba
4 Arrogant Wurm
3 Wonder
// Disruption
4 Circular Logic
4 Force of Will
// Draw/Search
4 Brainstorm
3 Deep Analysis

[Bongo]

I also have to agree with the fragility issue. The outlets are vulnerable, especially without counters to protect them. However, when Mongrel or Moeba survives, the odds are in your favor.

Has anyone else tested the Triple Madness variant? So far, the deck performs better against FCG, Dragon and other creature based decks in general than the UG version. Although this is minor, it should also be possible to catch Landstill off-guard and Sword a manland.

[scrumdogg]

The black should be very doable (especialy with duals and 8 fetches) since you need only 1 black ever and you control when you get the black dualland. However, since the deck seems to be leaning to the white splash, why is no one considering the Anurid Brushhopper? A fantastic Madness outlet, a 3/4 for 3, and it can evade mass & pinpoint removal? Where exactly is the drawback? I've been playing a lot of G/W Madness in the last 6-8 months and the Hopper has been good to me. Try it...see if it fits with the focus of the deck as you have it.

[kirdape3]

Ahem. The proper black Madness outlet would be Psychatog. White's best is actually Tireless Tribe - 3 mana for the Brushhopper is at the top of the curve and therefore keeps you from Madness-ing out an Arrogant Wurm right away. You can't just go turn 2 Mongrel, turn 3 Wurm if you're clogging it up with a slower guy.

The purpose of the teritary color in the deck isn't to add to the Madness outlets, but rather to add support in areas that desperately need it - creature removal and perhaps some enchantment killing.

[Magi]

What if you were to find room for some RotW's in there? I thought about it, and my reasoning is that in response to your Dog or Blob getting smoked, you can discard a Roar so that if you find yourself running low on threats you can always play that 4th land and cast a Wurm, if need be.

Perhaps cut a Wonder, and something else maybe? (for the U/G build only) That would put 2 Wonders maindeck, and 2 Roar's maindeck. I really don't see the need for more than 2 Wonders. They can be pitched to Force, but you'll almost never use them as beaters. They always end up getting discarded to Mongrels' and Meoba's for extra dmg, and Roar can perform that exact same function, only instead of flying it potentially gives you a 6/6, and flying is not needed in every matchup. I don't know how much more is necessary, but I'll try my build with 2 on Friday.

Roar's aren't too horrible. They're kind of slow against FCG, but they're nice and meaty against Landstill, and can hold their own against randomness. I also remember many a time where I would Duress a Roar into the graveyard when playing against Madness, for lack of a suitable target.

[Zilla]

Ahem. The proper black Madness outlet would be Psychatog.
I nearly mentioned it in my last post. Certainly the Tog makes for an excellent Madness outlet. But it's slow. It means that Logic, DA, Wonder, and Wurm don't come online until turn 4. That's is slow as balls. If you're running Tog, you might as well be running Hulk or GAT, since they're actually built to deal with the relative slowness of Tog, where Madness is less so.

Brushhopper is a problem for the same reason. Tireless Tribe is a good outlet, but it's nearly irrellevant to the actual beats strategy, which is in fact UG's entire focus. The main reason I suggested Infestation is because it hits play turn 2, can't be killed of by StP or Bolt, and actually provides additional aggro elements, thus significantly decreasing the deck's clock.

Nevertheless, I don't feel that any of the options are altogether ideal. Chances are good that the deck is going to remain strongest in its pure UG form, despite the relative fragility of its outlets. This is of course barring the printing of new cards which may be superior to the current options.



Edited By GodzillA on 1087367514

[edgewalker]

For white maybe Trained Pronghorn or Patrol Hound. Both are shit but better compared to Tireless tribe.

[Zilla]

For white maybe Trained Pronghorn or Patrol Hound. Both are shit but better compared to Tireless tribe.
Tireless Tribe is bad, Trained Pronghorn is much worse. Patrol Hound could theoretically be better, but none of them are any good. They don't enhance the deck's aggro strategy, and they're all StP bait, which is the problem that most needs fixing in the first place.

[tathtaniel]

If you're looking for another madness outlet, maybe find a place for Merfolk Looter, or even possibly Survival? Both are a bit clunky I know, but if you're needing outlets, they're both decent ones.

[Zilla]

If you're looking for another madness outlet, maybe find a place for Merfolk Looter, or even possibly Survival? Both are a bit clunky I know, but if you're needing outlets, they're both decent ones.
Survival is only a good Madness outlet for creatures. The only cards that would benefit from it would be the Rootwallas and the Wonders. The deck needs a source that can dump Logic, DA, and Arrogant Wurm as well.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Mind Bomb. :D

[Fireknighte]

Has Careful Study been mentioned?

[edit:] oops!

[LunchBox]

Mind Bomb and Careful Study aren't likely to find a spot because they're sorcerys, and you need to be able to do Logics and eot Wurms.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Have Balloon Peddler/Diplomatic Escort/Waterfront Bouncer/Dawnstrider/Deepwood Drummer been tried, or are they too slow?

[Carlos El Salvador]

In extended they have been using the bouncer since the beginning of time.

[Magi]

In extended they have been using the bouncer since the beginning of time.
the problem with that is Bouncer takes until turn 3 to be active, and you can't use him to get an Arrogant wurm out until turn 4. He has the same flaw that made me rethink my decision to NOT use Thought Courier and all cards like him.

By turn 4, you should be already have a nice mass of beaters on the board (a Rootwalla or 2, mongrel/moeba and a wurm), if the game is going according to plan.

I think that maybe a more controllish build sporting Bouncer and Thought Courier and co. as madness outlets would be cool, but it certainly wouldn't be anything like this version of Madness.

[Zilla]

It would perhaps help to set some guidelines on reasonable Madness Outlets:

1. It must cost 2 or less. Otherwise your threats don't come online nearly quickly enough.

2. It must function as an outlet for all of your Madness/Flashback spells, not just creatures, etc.

3. It must allow for instant-speed Madness usage.

4. It must enhance the deck's beatdown nature. This is what prevents many otherwise viable sources from being a good addition to the deck (Bazaar, Tireless Tribe, etc.) Pitch a card to Mongrel and it's dealing 3 damage. Pitch a card to 'moeba and it does 3 damage as well. That's the kind of aggression we're looking for.

5. Not absolutely required, but preferably on-color.

6. Not absolutely required, but preferably not highly prone to removal.

The closest card I've seen to meeting all those criteria is Zombie Infestation. The problem is mainly that it's off color, and that it requires you to pitch 2 cards rather than 1. All the other options either don't enhance the deck's beatdown strategy, are too costly (i.e. slow), or are too fragile. Pretty much all the options have been explored, and I think most are simply not worth the trouble. We should keep an eye out for cards in new sets that meet the above criteria, but for the time being I think it may be best to leave the deck as is.

[scrumdogg]

Quite frankly, Waterfront Bouncer does add to the beatdown element of the deck. The ability to disrupt a damage race, to save one of your guys (including both Madness outlets & abusers), to gank a blocker, to screw with combo - all of these allow you to focus the rest of your efforts on beating to the face. Will Bouncer ever scare anyone with his combat potential, probably not, but he almost guarantees an outlet and provides an extra level of control that this deck needs versus combo.

[Zilla]

Quite frankly, Waterfront Bouncer does add to the beatdown element of the deck. The ability to disrupt a damage race, to save one of your guys (including both Madness outlets & abusers), to gank a blocker, to screw with combo - all of these allow you to focus the rest of your efforts on beating to the face. Will Bouncer ever scare anyone with his combat potential, probably not, but he almost guarantees an outlet and provides an extra level of control that this deck needs versus combo.
The issue of course is that he's equally, actually more succeptible to removal than your other Madness outlets. Most decks aren't going to let your Bouncer remain in play long enough to be useful.

The fact that his ability costs mana is a big issue too. The deck's curve is supposed to top out at three. Any land beyond the third is supposed to be pitched to Mongrel for bigger beats. Bouncer essentially raises the curve to 4, which significantly slows the deck.

Given that he adds a control element to the deck, he might be able to make up for the overall slow-down he causes. It warrants further testing, I think.

[kirdape3]

I honestly am not sure that the 'standard' U/G version isn't solid enough. You're dead even with Landstill - sure they have a massive number of creature kill spells, but you're CounterSliver to their Weissman - you can get one threat on the board and beat them to death while protecting it. Dragon is rather annoying, but you have Wasteland to keep up and your own Forces and some Stifles to deal with them trying to go off. If you board some stuff, you can win both games on the flip side and still take the match. The real problem though is FCG - their accelerants are better plus they come out before enough defenses online. If you can properly tune the board against Dragon and FCG, you should be able to win with the stock U/G list.

[Magi]

I think Dragon should be fine, provided you get some Root Mazes in the sideboard. With countermagic, Root Mazes and Wastes, that's a pretty solid group of hate to bring in.

I agree FCG is the matchup to look at to shore up the most. They're just way too fast.

[LunchBox]

I agree FCG is the matchup to look at to shore up the most. They're just way too fast.

4x Chill in the board should help, but I never had to use them at Amrod's. The amount of Landstill in CNY has severely limited the amount of FCG lately.

[Zilla]

The problem with UG Madness right now is that it has roughly a 50/50 game against Landstill and Dragon (even with board) and a slightly less than 50/50 game against FCG. That doesn't make for the best odds, really. A lot of its problems are caused by the need to aggressively mull for Madness outlets, or by the inability to keep a resolved Madness outlet on the table. If this issue is addressed, it should have a much stronger game against everything. I can't help but wonder if -4 Stifle, +3 Waterfront Bouncer, +1 Island might not help in this regard. When I have time, I'll give it some testing.

[Catacomb]

Putrid Imp, anyone? Almost always a 2/2 flyer in this deck. While not as effective as the other outlets, what do you guys think?

[Zilla]

If it were on-color it would be a decent choice. I think Waterfront Bouncer probably has better potential though.

[Eclipt1c]

The main problem with UG Madness that I've noticed isn't really the outlets, I've been content with the 8, the main problem is it's lack of removal. The deck tries to counter anything that would potentially skew board position away from the Madness player, but does so with usually lackluster results. Whenever I'm playing I'm always wising I had something to kill a creature or something on the board, usually after a Disk wipes out all my creatures. Therein lies the problem, Green and Blue have no good removal or board-sweeping effects. The only possible candidates are Psionic Blast and ..meh..Hail Storm.

I've been trying to fit red into the deck to possibly speed it up a little and give it some removal. The problem is cutting cards from the UG version. I like Kird's list a lot and that's the one I've been using. The decks so tight, and the only really negotiable slot in the deck is Stifle, and I'm loving that card so much that I wouldn't cut it for something unless it was much more universally useful than Stifle.

Because of the deck's lack of ability to deal with anything once it hits the board, I think that the deck will be stuck at Tier 1.5 at best.

Also, I've been trying out some new cards in the deck:
Pulse of the Grid - Testing with this has been interesting. I've found it to be stellar in long games giving it a chance to win if disrupted early, and no worse than Deep Anal in the short term. Plus the instant speed is always a bonus. The reason this card has potential is that Madness always drops its hand so fast that it almost always gets to come back to your hand. The problem I predict coming out of it is the discard clause. It's a mandatory discard that you have to hope that you can turn into advantage with Madness/Deep Anal/Wonder. I'll do some more testing and post an update.

Lightning Greaves - To be honest I haven't really tested this card that much, naught but a couple goldfishes. It should offer some protection from creature disruption and haste up some creatures. I'll do some more testing, but I can already predict wishing I had a better turn two drop when I end up with it in my hand early game.

Hopefully we'll get some better cards with the next new set.

[Magi]

The main problem with UG Madness that I've noticed isn't really the outlets, I've been content with the 8, the main problem is it's lack of removal. The deck tries to counter anything that would potentially skew board position away from the Madness player, but does so with usually lackluster results. Whenever I'm playing I'm always wising I had something to kill a creature or something on the board, usually after a Disk wipes out all my creatures. Therein lies the problem, Green and Blue have no good removal or board-sweeping effects. The only possible candidates are Psionic Blast and ..meh..Hail Storm.
Hey Eclipt1c, I noticed this problem too. The only way Madness deals with other threats is to roll over them, or to counter it, but once a threat hits, if it can't roll over it, gg. Remind you of a certain defunct decktype anyone? Sui had the same basic premise...using discard to throw away threats, but damned if a threat does actually make it through. Now, granted, counter > discard when it comes to threat prevention, but it's still a problem.

Hence, why I've been running Cunning Wish. Oxidize and Naturalize helps against garbage like Disk and randomness like Bridge etc., fetch a BEB against Goblin. At the worst, you pitch the card for extra damage.

Now, sadly, I took out the Stifles to test it :( and I miss them dearly. Stifle in hand beats having to Wish for a Stifle anyday of the week, but my metagame is too random and Dragon-less to worry about that too much. I've been trying to shore up the weaknesses in this deck, and I focused on that area first, because let's face it: Madness is Suicide, with counters instead of discard. There are quite a few obvious and some not so obvious parallels between the two decks.

In regards to another Madness outlet, I'm not sure that Waterfront Bouncer is the way to go. His ability costs a mana to use, so if you wanna use him to bust out an Arrogant Wurm, it's going to actually cost you 4. Plus, Bouncer just stinks against decks like Landstill. I propose to use Thought Courier and co. in his place. Their abilities don't cost mana, and at the very least help you rifle through your deck to get business spells...

Here's my list I've been testing for the past 2 weeks. It's far from over, and I was planning on playing around with it last Friday, but I had to work. I'll try out some games in Wednesday to see how they are.

MADNESS

Creatures://
4x Basking Rootwalla
4x Aquamoeba
4x Wild Mongrel
4x Arrogant Wurm
2x Wonder
2x Thought Courier

Spells://
4x Brainstorm
3x Deep ANALysis
3x Cunning Wish
4x Circular Logic
4x Force of Will

Lands://
4x Windswepth Heath
4x Flooded Strand
4x Wasteland
4x Tropical Island
2x Forest
4x Island

SB://
Xx Any number of viable blue/green instants that cost 1 or 2 mana
4x Chill
Xx Whatever slots are left for your meta


I originally had Stifles in place of the Wishes...

One change I should point out is that 3 mana is almost never enough. I usually like to go to 4 mana, so I can atleast cast my Wurms with Logic backup or atleast so I can try and bluff like I do, or so I can Wish -> Oxidize/Stifle/BEB, etc.. I developed this habit because I was trying out Roar's for a while... it hasn't hurt me greviously yet.

Also, in regards to the Dragon matchup, based on the high number of fetchlands this deck runs, Root Maze SB is becoming more unappealing by the second.

[Eclipt1c]

While I never had a problem with removal when I used to play Sui, you're absolutely right about the comparison. The decks rely COMPLETELY on their creatures, Madness even more so than Sui. Example: My friend was playing a Stasis deck (admittedly stasis is a bad archetype but he's a good player and has a pretty good build) and he dropped Energy Field second turn, and there was absolutely nothing I could of done to recover.

My initial reaction to Cunning Wish was absolutely not. It seems too slow and cumbersome to be able to quickly and efficiently deal with anything. But I'm starting to like the idea. I'll do some testing and hopefully it'll give Madness soem answers. The reason I'm liking it is because in the first 3-4 turns is where madness shines. That should be when the other player is trying to deal with you, and if they can't then you're set. When they start to get things set up ie: disk, decree of pain, etc that's when you need to have answers. I'll do some testing and post back.

@Magi: What's with your manabase, why are you running 8 fetches? That's way too many, I only run four and that seems more than enough.

[LunchBox]

@Magi: What's with your manabase, why are you running 8 fetches? That's way too many, I only run four and that seems more than enough.


8 fetches was suggested by GodzillA, and it's the way to go. This deck wants the thinning provided by fetches and you only really need 3 lands in play to make it work, so fetches drawn later in the game are extra damage through Wild Mongrel and Aquamoeba.

[Bongo]

The main problem with UG Madness that I've noticed isn't really the outlets, I've been content with the 8, the main problem is it's lack of removal.
Take a look at the decklist posted on page 7 by me. The white splash for Swords really solves the problem nicely and gives you some nice sideboarding options. Nonbasic hate isn't prevalent now, so the deck does quite well.

Anybody else tried the UGW variant?

[Eclipt1c]

Bongo, your list looks very nice, I'll definately test that out. What I'm worried about is the manabase. This is because
Nonbasic hate isn't prevalent now couldn't be more wrong. With Landstill solidifying itself as the top deck, Wasteland and Dustbowl are almost a necessity now and the cards are better than ever before. With some work on the manabase maybe a white splash would be the way to go in the end. This also gives the options of 2 additional madness outlets in Tireless Tribe and Patrol Hound.

If I were to run the UGw build I'd run something like this:

Creatures (19)
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Aquamoeba
4 Arrogant Wurm
3 Wonder

Spells (19)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Circular Logic
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Deep Analysis

Land (22)
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Forest
2 Island
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath

[Bongo]

I regard Wasteland as a given in any competitive metagame. With non-basic hate I was referring to something like Price of Progress, Blood Moon or Back to Basics.

Outside of the manabase, your deck is exactly like mine. One Forest and Island should be enough, as I have 8 ways to search them out. Otherwise the possibility remains that you don't get the right mana on the first few turns when holding too many basics (especially the white mana).
Eight Fetchies are also crucial. I suggest something like this:

8 Fetchies
4 Trops
4 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Forest
3 Tundra
1 Savannah

[Magi]

Bongo, your UGW build looks really solid. I just had an idea that came to my head.

Creatures://
4x Basking Rootwalla
4x Aquamoeba
4x Wild Mongrel
4x Arrogant Wurm
2x Wonder
2x Thought Courier

Spells://
4x Brainstorm
3x Deep ANALysis
3x Cunning Wish
4x Circular Logic
4x Force of Will

Lands://
4x Windswepth Heath
4x Flooded Strand
4x Wasteland
4x Tropical Island
1x Tundra
1x Savannah
2x Forest
2x Island

SB://
Xx Any number of viable blue/green instants that cost 1 or 2 mana
Xx Swords to Plowshares
Xx Chill
Xx Whatever slots are left for your meta

Totally untested. I don't know if this will be viable. Might be a tad too slow (4th turn plow is really really iffy).




The numerous fetchlands accomplish 2 things, aside from the smoothing of the mana base:

- Boosts the power of your Circular Logics.
- Great Synergy with Brainstorm.

I feel that using this much fetchies really cuts the viability of Root Maze SB though, which is really really strong against Dragon. Has anyone had any sufficient experience with Root Maze and fetchies? I myself have never played with the card.

[Catacomb]

If it were on-color it would be a decent choice. I think Waterfront Bouncer probably has better potential though.

That was aimed at the thought of a Black splash discussed on the previous page. :D

[Garvman]

Ok, I took UG madness down to Altered on Tues, because i honestly wanted to test the deck out against the field.. I really wanted to play against landstill, but by some sort of miracle, it didn't happen. I ended up splitting for first, and since this deck has been a recent topic of discussion for a top deck, I figured I'd post a little report.

Edit: Report found here (http://grexin.shonic.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=10;t=145;r=1). - Peter_Rotten

(I think there were 16-20 people in the tournament). Please keep in mind that I am keeping this very brief.
Here is the list I ran:

//Land:
4 tropical island
3 windswept heath
3 flooded strand
3 wasteland
3 treetop village
3 island
2 forest

//1cc:
4 basking rootwalla
3 stifle
4 brainstorm

//2cc:
4 wild mongrel
4 aquamoeba
2 naturalize

//3cc:
4 circular logic
2 Psionic blast

//4cc:
2 deep analasis
3 wonder

//5cc:
4 force of will
4 arrogant wurm


SB:
3 compost
4 chill
3 ground seal
1 wasteland
1 psionic blast
1 naturalize
2 deep analysis

[LunchBox]

How did you like the Psionic Blasts in the deck? I didn't see any instance of you using them. I've been thinking about including them, but I wonder if they cost too much (since the deck curves out at 3).

[Garvman]

I liked them... I did use them, but never for the kill... I think I offed creatures more then sending it to the dome.

[gaypron]

could it be possible to take out a wonder for another stifle. it just seems that 3 wonders is kinda a bit too much. 3 would be good if you used intuition

[LunchBox]

3 Wonders are needed here because you don't have Intuition. Having 3 means that you're likely to see one in the aggro matchups where you need them, whereas it's less likely with only 2 Wonder.

[Zilla]

In regards to another Madness outlet, I'm not sure that Waterfront Bouncer is the way to go... Bouncer just stinks against decks like Landstill. I propose to use Thought Courier and co. in his place.
Thought Courier is just a slower, more costly, more vulnerable Bazaar of Baghdad. It provides another Madness outlet, yes, but it's certainly not the best choice available. I agree that the deck's lack of removal can be a problem, and in a sense Bouncer provides a solution to both issues - it's another Madness outlet and provides a form of removal.

I disagree that Bouncer isn't useful against Landstill. It can be used to remove attacking manlands, meaning they lose tempo by having to replay a land, and must wait yet another turn to attack with it. It can also be used to remove Angel tokens permanently. It has a myriad of uses against Landstill.

Certainly it's vulnerable to removal, but any removal directed at Bouncer is removal not directed at your other Madness outlets. In that regard, it adds resilience through redundancy. In my opinion it's an infinitely better option than Thought Courier.



Edited By GodzillA on 1088022013

[Magi]

In regards to another Madness outlet, I'm not sure that Waterfront Bouncer is the way to go... Bouncer just stinks against decks like Landstill. I propose to use Thought Courier and co. in his place.
Thought Courier is just a slower, more costly, more vulnerable Bazaar of Baghdad. It provides another Madness outlet, yes, but it's certainly not the best choice available. I agree that the deck's lack of removal can be a problem, and in a sense Bouncer provides a solution to both issues - it's another Madness outlet and provides a form of removal.

I disagree that Bouncer isn't useful against Landstill. It can be used to remove attacking manlands, meaning they lose tempo by having to replay a land, and must wait yet another turn to attack with it. It can also be used to remove Angel tokens permanently. It has a myriad of uses against Landstill.

Certainly it's vulnerable to removal, but any removal directed at Bouncer is removal not directed at your other Madness outlets. In that regard, it adds resilience through redundancy. In my opinion it's an infinitely better option than Thought Courier.
I can seee Bouncer having some merit based on your points. I'll try some games tonight featuring both of them. They will be fighting for a slot in my deck :)

[gaypron]

could it be possilble to add in taigas and angers or is that not possible

[Zilla]

I've tested it. It sucks. Without Survival to search for it, Anger takes up way too many slots in the deck to be consistent. The payoff isn't worth it.

[gaypron]

why not take out aquameba, for survivals and 1 wonder for an anger, that could possibly work, but would be less effective

[Zilla]

why not take out aquameba, for survivals and 1 wonder for an anger, that could possibly work, but would be less effective
Remove madness outlets for Survival? That's absurd. Survival can't get Logic, DA or Arrogant Wurm into the yard, nor can it attack for 3 points of damage.

[gaypron]

Remove madness outlets for Survival? That's absurd. Survival can't get Logic, DA or Arrogant Wurm into the yard, nor can it attack for 3 points of damage.
it stil is an outlet, just not as effective as aqumeba. its true it cant get logic or da in yard, but thats what courrier and mongrel is for. im not trying to say this is something that should be done, but as a posibility

[Zilla]

it stil is an outlet, just not as effective as aqumeba.
There are over 3000 cards that are less effective than Aquamoeba in this deck. I don't intend on running them, either.

[gaypron]

well, that idea was blown to hell, oh well.

[Eclipt1c]

The problem with Survival, other than that it can only dump creatures, is that it negates the tempo advantage of Madness. It makes everything cost [Madness cost]G. Which slows it down considerably. Sure it grabs another creature, but it'll take another G to dump that creature. Also it doesn't come online until turn 3, and even on turn 3 all you can do is discard a Walla for something else. Aquamoeba comes online turn 2 and starts working immediately. The fundemental turns for this deck are 2&3, 2 to drop outlets and more Rootwallas, and turn 3 to drop Wurm and go for the win. If you slow down the deck, then it's just bad aggro that'll get stomped by any other deck.

[ns2973]

Exactly eclipt, the idea of u/g was always about speed and evasion w/ small amounts of control. The tempo of the deck gets seriously hurt by dropping a turn 2 enchantment. Why, because it doesn't say wild mongrel or aquameoba and swing to the dome. You don't want to take a simple deck w/ an outlined focus that works and complicate it. Theres a great article in required reading about not being tricked by cool things, check it out.

[gaypron]

i probably should. its just that i was trying to put 2 decks into 1. there was a r/g madness that had survival and the like so i thought, try it with u/g and see if it works, i guess it doesnt.

[Zilla]

It definitely doesn't. RG Survival is built much more around Survival than the Madness mechanic, utilizing a toolkit style of one-ofs to answer specific challenges. U/G Madness focuses on the Madness mechanic itself, and redundancy of threat types. Very different strategies.

[gaypron]

has anyone ever considered putting were bear in? in the early game it adds mana excel and late game it turns into a 4/4 beater. the only thing i can see wrong with it is that second turn is usually the crucial turn to drop mongel/ courier/ aquameaba. but ive been play testing with it and it and droping it 3rd turn isnt so bad, but it does slow down the tempo a bit. has anyone else test were bear? or is this just an old idea and tested to be bad?

comments?

Bre

[AlexH]

Turn two is spent playing a madness outlet and turn 3 is playing a wurm or dropping a second threat and keeping open logic/stifle mana. There really isn't any room for it on the curve. After 3 or 4 lands you don't really need the green mana anymore. And 1/1s for 1G = bad

[gaypron]

Turn two is spent playing a madness outlet and turn 3 is playing a wurm or dropping a second threat and keeping open logic/stifle mana. There really isn't any room for it on the curve. After 3 or 4 lands you don't really need the green mana anymore. And 1/1s for 1G = bad
true, but the late game feature isnt too bad, 1G for a 4/4 flyer that can tap for wurm mana, help pump walla, help cast a ditched deep anal

[AlexH]

thats what lands are for. And it doesn't fly without wonder and it isn't a 4/4 without 7 cards in your graveyard. And unless you miss your third land drop, it doesn't help pay for wurm mana. My point is that by the time the mana is online, it really doesn't matter anymore and you'd be better of playing something that does something.

[gaypron]

thats what lands are for. And it doesn't fly without wonder and it isn't a 4/4 without 7 cards in your graveyard. And unless you miss your third land drop, it doesn't help pay for wurm mana. My point is that by the time the mana is online, it really doesn't matter anymore and you'd be better of playing something that does something.
odds are when youre about to attack, wonder will probably be in the yard and there will be 7 or more cards in there. if you miss third land drop, you can use it as a mana fixer and help turn out the wurn and other things. about mid game you start running out of things to play and were bear wouldnt be a bad drop cuz it attacks, adds mana, and can chump something big that could be coming in

[frogboy]

So what do you cut, lands, other (better) threats, or control spells?

[gaypron]

i tried it by taking out cunning wish.

[Zilla]

i tried it by taking out cunning wish.
What? Wish was never in there in the first place.

[gaypron]

What? Wish was never in there in the first place.
i copied my list from Eclipt1c and since his ran wishes, i took those out

[Magi]

i tried it by taking out cunning wish.
What? Wish was never in there in the first place.
ahahaha

sorry zilla, my bad


I was trying it out for a while and I posted my decklist, I guess some people were trying it out also.

I hardly got any testing with it however, as there's a T1 tourney for a timewalk in a couple of weeks, so I've had to convert Madness to T1, and well, it's quite different.

[kirdape3]

Unless you have power, Madness in Type 1 looks exactly the same as the base list but -3 Stifle +3 Null Rod.

Adding Werebear (and by extension Nimble Mongoose) changes the deck into Threshold - which gets splashed right out for the graveyard hate for Dragon.

[Garvman]

I like this deck almost as much as I like Garv.dec. I've been playing it for a while, and happen to think it is the shizzet. It does not roll over and die to anything (it has it's tough matchups, such as mud (REALLY tough), and good aggro, but it can pull out anything). The only deck I haven't really tested it against is FCG, which will probably give it problems, but who knows, I play stifle, naturalize, and as many counters as landstill (and I plan on drawing them all, too). This deck has the ability to easily adapt to be the control or the beatdown in any matchup, the addition of psi blast has proven essential, giving the deck an extra "oomph" when you just need to go to the dome, and I made room for 2 natuarlizes just because I hate not being able to deal wth enchantments/artifacts MD. Even if it's dead, it really isn't, as it can be used to pump the mongrel/auquamoeba. I am sold that brainstorm is better than careful study in the deck, because it digs farther, and is an instant (keeping that one blue open really is key, as you could have stifle or circ lodge in your hand! I am also sold that red = bad, because that means more non-basics, and all you get that really helps is anger. (fire/ice, firey temper are good, but psi blast works fine I tell you!) I have made top 4 every time I played with this deck. Teeniebopper went 1-2 drop last night with it (he lost to Zompy and Garv, I'm not sure what he beat), but ehh, he suxs :D . I also reserve the right to have at least 2 forces of will in my hand at all times!

[Eclipt1c]

Garv, I'm interested in seeing your build. I've been running Madness for the past couple weeks and have noticed that the deck dies pretty easily to Ravager too, however I have not tested it agaisnt wMUD. Last week there was a 7/10 player and the Ravager player, so I put 3 Energy Fluxes in the sideboard. Fortunately, I got matched agaisnt both of them and won both matches. But pre-board, the deck gets destroyed by Ravager.

[Zilla]

4 Oxidize in the board, along with Back to Basics and Chain of Vapor should go a loooong way in this match. What you're missing against Ravager is removal. Add a bit of that and you'll monkeystomp them.

[Eclipt1c]

Actually post SB I had no problem with just the 3 Energy Fluxes. Although one game, the player just paid 2 for Ravager then sacced everything to it. So I suppose the best sideboard would have been 3 Fluxes and 4 Naturalize.

[Garvman]

@Eclipt1c:
My build looks like this right now:

//Land:
4 tropical island
3 wooded foothills
3 poluted delta
3 wasteland
3 treetop village
3 island
2 forest

//1cc:
4 basking rootwalla
3 stifle
4 brainstorm

//2cc:
4 wild mongrel
4 aquamoeba
2 naturalize

//3cc:
4 circular logic
2 Psionic blast

//4cc:
2 deep analysis
3 wonder

//5cc:
4 force of will
4 arrogant wurm


SB:
3 compost
3 chill
2 ground seal
2 Tormond's Crypt
1 naturalize
2 deep analysis
2 Back to basics

I rarley see ravanger/mud around here, so I don't need that much hate for it. I play naturalize over oxidise because an enchantment such as survival is much more likely to give me problems than an artifact. There are also a fair amount of people starting to play "Pandeburst" decks around here, which is beginninng to aggrevate me.

[Lord McCaffrey]

3 Composts? That's certainly an interesting Sb choice. Do you really think that black is a big enough concern to blow 3 Sb slots on a card that only affects a fairly obscure deck?

I would probably change that to +1 Crypt, +1 Back to Basics, +1 Naturalize.

[Ih8every1]

@Garv: I mean no disrespect Garv but 3 treetop village madness is horrible it slows down ur tempo so much because if you drop them second turn u cannot cast a mongrel or aquamoeba, then arrogant wurm can't come out till four, and last treetop village is way too mana intensive in the deck as its curve is 3 as u will be tapping 3 land to attack or block. Also i agree with Lord McCaffery that having 3 compost in the sideboard is a little odd. Do you have a lot of black in ur meta.Those three slots should be cards that would help you in madness' unfavorable matchups. Thats just my $0.02.

[Eclipt1c]

I wholely agree with Ih8every1 about Villages. They just destroy your tempo. The deck taps out almost every turn,either dropping beats or casting Deep Anal, but this would be essentially missing a land drop, and at least early on madness cannot afford to do that. It's also another wasteland target which the deck wants as few of. As for compost, that's just a meta call.

[Garvman]

The composts are very very good against suicide, but thats not what they are there for. They are there for UB landstill, and I just haven't gotten around to taking them out (the deck is not that popular around here). Also, I will put compost in any SB for a green deck just to piss off Tara :p .The treetops are INSANE against anything that plays standstill, and are only in the deck for that reason. I specifically built that to beat control. I have tended to play the deck in a more controlish manner than I thought I would, opting to hold back on the beats many a time in favor of keeping mana for stifling, brainstorming, and logicing, so the treetops haven't really hurt me (the deck really is quite diverse with regards to how you can play it). I think I will probably cut them anyways, becuase I don't want B2B to hurt me more than my opponent.

[Eclipt1c]

The deck already beats decks with standstill soundly. Wonder is key in the match up. I usually play it in the exact opposite manner, going for pure aggro, usually holding back 1 madness outlet in my hand for when the rest get disked away. It's usually a very effective and successful strategy.

[overlord95]

garv why arent you playing hiddon gibbons or hiddon herd, gibbons has won me so many games as of right now my sideboard is something like this....
u/g maddness sideboard:
//0cc
3 crypts
//1cc
3 gibbons
3 bebs
//2cc
3 naturalize
//3cc
3 back to basics

[Ih8every1]

The deck already beats decks with standstill soundly.
Quoted for Truth.

Madness beats both Landstill/Fish as I would know because i use to play Landstill. Besides Troll Mongrel and Rootwalla are the two creatures u never want to see on the other side of the board if you are playing a deck with standstill in it.

@overlord:
Also gibbons/herd is pretty good but against what kind of decks do you mean though control/aggro or even combo? Could you also fill us in on more details about how these cards win you games since madness already wins straight out on its on usually.

[overlord95]

[quote](Ih8every1@July 24 2004,4:59)
Also gibbons/herd is pretty good but against what kind of decks do you mean though control/aggro or even combo? Could you also fill us in on more details about how these cards win you games since madness already wins straight out on its on usually.

@Ih8every1:
to answer your question, gibbons are pretty much good against most control decks in the format (landstill,angel control, hulk), as well as some aggro decks such as sligh, fish, and the mirror. to answer your second question gibbons forces the control player to play around gibbons giving me the oppurtunity to hopefully resolve a madness outlet or another game breaking spell. against aggro/aggro control it gives me another big creature to go to town on them with

[Eclipt1c]

Here's my current deck list, I believe it's nigh optimal except for the exclusion of Psionic Blasts. I have not had a chance to test the blasts, so I'm not sure what number of them I'm going to run. They may replace the Stifles or become SB only cards.

4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Arrogant Wurm
4 Aquamoeba
4 Wild Mongrel
3 Wonder

4 Brainstorm
3 Deep Analysis

4 Force of Will
4 Circular Logic
4 Stifle

4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
2 Forest
4 Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand

SB:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Naturalize
3 Energy Flux
3 Tranquil Domain
1 X

I bet you're probably wondering about the abscence of B2B in my SB, and the answer is that I've just never needed it. The deck beats control fairly soundly (specifically standstill based decks, it has been known to have problems against Crazy 88s). Energy Flux is for Ravager and Workshop decks (a couple have sprung up in NoVA). The Tranquil Domains are for Enchantress. The deck has a horrible matchup with Enchantress, or at least SpatulaOfTheAges' build, I've gotten knocked out of Top 8 or knocked out of the chance for T8 a few times from him.


I'd like to start a discussion on bad matchups for the deck. If anyone has noticed any particularly good matchups (from extensive playtesting) or bad matchups we should discuss how to overcome them.

Good:
Standstill based control - I noticed it does better against the non black Landstills. Probably mainly because of Innocent Blood.
Most other aggro - It can race them, or just fly over them most of the time.
Pure Burn: You can usually race faster than they can, and with Mongrel and Wurm (especially Mongrel) they may have to make very unreasonable trades to get rid of your creatures. Which in turn steals their thunder, and you probably just drop another one next turn.

Bad:
FCG: They can race faster sometimes. BEB and Chill are really good answers though.
Crazy 88's: So much creature removal it's nuts. Humility doesn't help either. No idea how to make this matchup better, we didn't do any post SB games.
Ravager: It's just too fast and Ravager can get way too big. I noticed Disciples were key for ravager in winning though and I didn't always have a Force ready. Naturalize is useless in this matchup, they just have too many artifacts that kill you. Energy Flux destroys them pretty soundly.
Enchantress: They have a lot of answers. As far as I see it though, there are only a few must counters: Soltary Confinement, Replenish, and Words of War. Elephant Grass can be paid for, and Tranquil Domain helps tremendously.

[Ih8every1]

Here's my current deck list, I believe it's nigh optimal except for the exclusion of Psionic Blasts. I have not had a chance to test the blasts, so I'm not sure what number of them I'm going to run. They may replace the Stifles or become SB only cards.

4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Arrogant Wurm
4 Aquamoeba
4 Wild Mongrel
3 Wonder

4 Brainstorm
3 Deep Analysis

4 Force of Will
4 Circular Logic
4 Stifle

4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
2 Forest
4 Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand

SB:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Naturalize
3 Energy Flux
3 Tranquil Domain
1 X

I bet you're probably wondering about the abscence of B2B in my SB, and the answer is that I've just never needed it. The deck beats control fairly soundly (specifically standstill based decks, it has been known to have problems against Crazy 88s). Energy Flux is for Ravager and Workshop decks (a couple have sprung up in NoVA). The Tranquil Domains are for Enchantress. The deck has a horrible matchup with Enchantress, or at least SpatulaOfTheAges' build, I've gotten knocked out of Top 8 or knocked out of the chance for T8 a few times from him.


I'd like to start a discussion on bad matchups for the deck. If anyone has noticed any particularly good matchups (from extensive playtesting) or bad matchups we should discuss how to overcome them.

Good:
Standstill based control - I noticed it does better against the non black Landstills. Probably mainly because of Innocent Blood.
Most other aggro - It can race them, or just fly over them most of the time.
Pure Burn: You can usually race faster than they can, and with Mongrel and Wurm (especially Mongrel) they may have to make very unreasonable trades to get rid of your creatures. Which in turn steals their thunder, and you probably just drop another one next turn.

Bad:
FCG: They can race faster sometimes. BEB and Chill are really good answers though.
Crazy 88's: So much creature removal it's nuts. Humility doesn't help either. No idea how to make this matchup better, we didn't do any post SB games.
Ravager: It's just too fast and Ravager can get way too big. I noticed Disciples were key for ravager in winning though and I didn't always have a Force ready. Naturalize is useless in this matchup, they just have too many artifacts that kill you. Energy Flux destroys them pretty soundly.
Enchantress: They have a lot of answers. As far as I see it though, there are only a few must counters: Soltary Confinement, Replenish, and Words of War. Elephant Grass can be paid for, and Tranquil Domain helps tremendously.
Yeah I agree with eclipt1c that we should start talking about the matchup of U/G.

@eclipt1c I think the build you have is pretty strong and doesn't need psionic blast because stifle are ten times better in the meta then blast even though it is blue removal. Madness is not about removing there creatures but plowing through them or making your opponent trade two for one with them.

I recently tested a few games with my friend and he was playing r/g madness with bazaar and his dck won 5 out of the 6 games, but zero sideboarding though. Bazaar gave his deck a lot of tempo and burn was just targetting all my madness outlets. Also if my friend ever played pyrostatic pillars he would have killed me a whole lot faster as a majority of the cards in madness is 2 or less. I think that if people actually started testing this deck out it could really give U/G a run for it's money. I just thought that people should atleast be aware that you face such a deck.

Also I think sligh can be a bad matchup first game since all there burns can take out so many of your outlets even mongel. Though sideboard makes game 2 and 3 so much better.

Thats my $0.02 and i need to do more testing with decks before i put up any more bad matchups.

[kirdape3]

The boards have evolved (at least in Type 1, where the deck has a whole lot more success).

4 Gilded Drake
4 Natrualize
3 Crucible of Worlds (Nigga, pls. It's a real bitch to fight around for your average Landstill player, and it's a threat on its own since now you have infinite Wastelands. So what if they Disk it away, they'd have to Disk for just this.)
3 Ground Seal
1 (whatever goes in the Null Rod slot, I think consensus has it as Stifle)

There isn't very much Food Chain anymore. Even if there was, they simply don't like Wonder very much. (Those are the few games that I actually won :< - it's been awhile since I've played this deck, or 1.5 at all). The board reflects anti-Dragon/Survival work more than it does Food Chain.

Oh, and Logics are gone for Dazes since it's really nice to mess up a curve with casting one of them (plus they don't take an active Madness outlet already to use).

[Ih8every1]

The boards have evolved (at least in Type 1, where the deck has a whole lot more success).
Kird Type1 meta is a lot different from 1.5 where fish runs all around giving madness a lot of good matchups. Plus Type1 madness has access to power where 1.5 doesn't. So thats why the board for 1.5 should not resemble like Type1's board.

What I don't get is why you would waste 3 slots in your sideboard so you can win against a deck that madness already has a good match-up against.

As for the gilded drakes they are not that great since you don't have Waterfront Bouncer around, so pretty much you are giving them a 3/3 blocker against your aquamoeba and rootwalla. Regardless of what creature you have took it should have been countered in teh first place if it was a big enough problem to side in Drake.

I don't think you should replace logic with daze either even though they don't require an outlet or hurt the curve. Daze is good within the first few turns, but as the game goes on daze will just be pitch or force fodder. Late game though logic shines. If necessary you COULD pay the full cost of logic if you have no outlet for some reason. Also another reason why you shouldn't run daze is because you have force there for the first few turns to counter something, and it fixes your curve too.

[frogboy]

Gilded Drake is > Exalted Angel, and isn't Duressable. I'm pretty sure I'd trade a 3/3 flier for a 4/5 Spirit Linked flier any day.

[116thStreet]

I've been looking at madness for awhile. While I like the newer U/G builds, I don't like not having removal. Wonder goes along way in stopping ground wars but it doesn't prevent the other player from racing you. I decided to go G/R because it opened me up to Temper and Erruption which can be used as removal or as shots to the dome.

GR Madness
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Arrogant Wurm
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Anger
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob

4 Rancor
4 Fiery Temper
3 Violent Erruption
2 Naturalize

4 Bazaar of Bahgdad
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga
3 Forest
3 Mountain
(61 cards, can't decide to cut a Squee, Rancor, or Anger)

No Wonder- Since I have 4 Temper and 3 Erruption, not too many creatures are getting in the way. The only creatures played heavily that those don't nuke are the big artifact guys (Titans, Dreadnoughts) which Naturalize hits.

Naturalize over Ray- Since the card in this slot isn't a threat, its flexibility needs to be maximized. Naturalize takes out artifact dudes, kills dragon enchantments, takes out Disk, etc. Ray and Oxidize only do half the job.

Birds and Spirit Guides- Because Aquamoeba got cut with blue, I have to use Bazaar as a second madness outlet. A first turn Bird or a 1-3rd turn Spirit Guide make up for the missed land drop.

Rancor- PCP for Rootwallas, not to shabby on anything else either. Turns everything into a bigger clock than it was, and comes back if you loose your dude, at worst you can pitch it.

I like it because it smashes alot of face and has the ability to deal with any permanent. You still have access to non-basic hate in Blood Moon, or even Choke because the deck only has to support 2 colors, and the sideboard has all the other usual red and green hosers that are always good. Its not close to being done but...

Side Board
4 Red Elemental Blast (anything with Islands)
4 Artifact Mutation/Oxidize (MUD, 7/10, artifact heavy)
4 Tormod's Crypt (Dragon, graveyard based)
3 Blood Moon/ PoP/ Choke (Landstill, Dragon, non-basic heavy)

I just thought I'd toss this out there. Thoughts?

[gaypron]

with the squee, bazaar draw engine youre running, you could probably cut an anger since youre digging deep with bazaar

[Zilla]

How does a deck like this beat Dragon? 2 MD Naturalize? You've got no countermagic, no Wastelands, and 2 MD answers. That seems questionable at best.

[116thStreet]

I can't find the room to run a fell set of Naturalizes but I'm still trying to. It's not all about shutting the Dragon player down, its about stalling them with cheap answers like Ray/Naturalize (and Crypt after SB) long enough to win. Especially if your seeing 3 cards a turn with Bazaar, it shouldn't be hard to find atleast one answer.

Maybe Ray of Revelation would be better maindeck, its cheaper and discardable before use. Downside is that you have to discard it before using it. I'm playing 4 Artifact Mutations in the board so not having artifact removal main might not not be so bad. I would run Wasteland if I could find another decent madness outlet, but as is Bazaar+ Wasteland= bad since you want both of them in the first few turns. Is this even worth it, or is G/U just the better deck?

[Zilla]

The problem is that at least one answer is almost never enough. Dragon is designed to play around hate. The only effective strategies against it involve multiple ways to stop its game plan, like Crypt in conjunction with Wastes and Blood Moon. A single card won't do the job, particularly not Naturalize, which forces you to leave 2 mana untapped during the early stages of your development, thus severely stunting your growth, and slowing down your clock significantly. At first glance, your build has no solution to this problem, even with Crypts in the board.

[ns2973]

I agree w/ zilla. You need at LEAST 2 forms of disruption if you expect to have any chance against dragon. I really would suggest blue be put back in as it gives you circular logic, wonder and aquamoeba which to me are what make madness a good deck. I really think that burn isn't really necesarry when you can just soar over them w/ wonder. If you could play 4 naturalize, 4 blood moon, 4 crypt you would have a chance.

[LunchBox]

UG Madness has been good to me against Dragon. The FoW's, Logics, and Stifles make the matchup very winnable. B2B out of the board is a big help, too. I would go with UG.

I've adjusted my build to look more like the one that Top 16'd on 7/10 by including 2 Naturalize and 2 Psionic Blast MD because the deck desperately needs the removal. I haven't had much chance to test yet, but I think it will stabilize the deck a little.

[kirdape3]

I wonder how savage the hard lock is (Crucible plus Wasteland kills all but what, four of their lands? If that many?) against a combo deck already having to fight through Force of Will and Stifle.

[Di]

Very savage. Even though Welder Mud can do that as early as turn 2, I think it could easily apply to pretty much any deck running Wastelands. It is a tad bit slow against Dragon though, because the turn you cast it could easily be the turn before you lose tapped out, unless you want to try for a turn 5. But it's still great none the less against other decks in the format. What happens if it resolves against Landstill? Oops, I win target game with Wasteland. Does great against Angel control as well, knocking off Tundras so they just don't win, or one of the other retarded decks in the format running a good chunk of non-basics like Garv(which is now actually a deck that doesn't burn your eyes to look at on paper), Hulk if it's played for an odd reason, 4color control, etc. Pretty much anything running a dual land that doesn't return to your hand thanks to Quirion Ranger.

[LunchBox]

In my narrow experience against Dragon, tapping out is what lost games, so I don't know how comfortable I'd be tapping out to play a Crucible. But on the other hand, it's a kick ass card and a great way to deny resources while beating down. It definitely might see play in my sideboard since it could be some good in the Landstill matchup, too.

EDIT: Posted at same time Diablos.

[ns2973]

Don't do it. Its good in welder mud because of what colin said, it drops turn 2. If you are waiting till turn 4 to start hitten em you are prolly gonna lose the match.

[overlord95]

listen to the man. all you do against dragon is assume the roll of the control player.

[LunchBox]

I definitely think it's something that deserves some testing. It seemed to work pretty well for PTW in the SCG Power 9 tourney. He used it in the Fish mirror, and Fish in T1 is pretty similar to Landstill in 1.5. It might not work against Dragon since it's so slow to come online (and Stifle, FoW, and Logic should be enough), but I definitely think that it's something to think about in the matchups Colin listed. Don't throw out ideas before they've been tested.

[djfu2002]

I am really confused why people are running brainstorm over careful study?

[116thStreet]

In U/G you already have 8 madness outlets, and the deck isn't as relient on the actual madness mechanic as earlier builds. Careful Study might give you a one time outlet but its -1 card advantage which= bad, and Brainstorm digs 1 card deeper.

[LunchBox]

Brainstorm is also significantly better thanks to the 8 fetchlands in the deck and since it's at instant speed.

[ns2973]

I definitely think it's something that deserves some testing. It seemed to work pretty well for PTW in the SCG Power 9 tourney. He used it in the Fish mirror, and Fish in T1 is pretty similar to Landstill in 1.5. It might not work against Dragon since it's so slow to come online (and Stifle, FoW, and Logic should be enough), but I definitely think that it's something to think about in the matchups Colin listed. Don't throw out ideas before they've been tested.
I do understand that it needs to be tested. However you can extrapolate the match on paper pretty easily like so. In type one you can have hard land lock turn 1. Lotus, crucible, strip go. In 1.5 playing u/g it is turn 3 at the earliest and you most likely have already lost. Yes in type one it could go in, where you could power it out early. Im just saying a lock that takes three turns to play and three turns to hard lock just probably won't cut it in a format with a fundamental turn of 3-4.



Edited By ns2973 on 1091195924

[LunchBox]

It's pretty obvious that Crucibles aren't needed or wanted in the Dragon matchup. Crucible is likely stronger in the control matchup anyway, and that match isn't over in less than 4 turns.

If I wasn't moving this weekend, I'd definitely find time to squeeze in some testing. Ugh.

[Bongo]

I've been looking at madness for awhile. While I like the newer U/G builds, I don't like not having removal. I decided to go G/R because it opened me up to Temper and Erruption which can be used as removal or as shots to the dome.
Check out the discussion on page seven of this thread.

I strongly suggest that everyone who feels that UG Madness lacks removal should test the deck I listed there. Swords really takes this deck to a new level.

Anyone else tried my Triple Madness list?

[overlord95]

i gave the deck a whirl but gave it my own little twist, i dropped the mebas and added anurid brushhoppers

[Bryant Cook]

has anyone thought about using compulsion? it helps out my version of the deck alot to find answers

[JesterBoY]

You have enough madness outlets for compoulsion to not be needed. Anyway what would you take out of the deck to add compulsion?

[Bryant Cook]

yes but compulsion is a draw and discard outlet. the deck needs more card draw. compulsion has never done me wrong and take out something useless liek roar of the wurm I only run 1 compulsion anyways

[JesterBoY]

The deck runs careful study and deep anal, what do you mean we need more draw?

[Bryant Cook]

carefull studdy is a horrible card more than half the time you end up discarding things you need that card you shouldnt run. i would fun serium visons over that crap

[JesterBoY]

WHat are you talking about? Careful study first turn is really powerful, you draw, anddiscard you madness,and flashback spells. I have no idea what you are talking about.

[Bryant Cook]

if you havent noticed this isnt the type 2 version of the deck.... the deck is beyond careful study. it needs better card draw and outletss than it did during odessey block.

[JesterBoY]

ok, compulsion was in oddesey block. So I guess that the deck needs better draw than that.

[gaypron]

i would have to agree with jester boy on this becuase compulsion is just too slow. on turn 2 you should be dropping aquameba or mongrel, not compulsion. it slows the deck down, along with its tempo.

[Bryant Cook]

yes your right i run 1 compulsion and i never drop it on turn 2 even if i have it on my hand i always play the beatsticks and the deck doesnt have tempo problems if your so worried about tempo. take out treetops (which is a bad idea) the deck isnt made to win turn 3 so why worry about tempo