[Deck] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

[JJ-JKidd]

If you run the 3-3 cbtop sb, is the inclusion of a 3cc necessary? Its pretty tight if you ask me.

[Awaclus]

If you run the 3-3 cbtop sb, is the inclusion of a 3cc necessary? Its pretty tight if you ask me.
I don't think it is. You can't afford to cut enough cards to be able to rely on Counterbalance countering the 3cc cards anyway, and you can always use the Force when you can't counter something with 'balance.

[JJ_JKidd]

I don't think it is. You can't afford to cut enough cards to be able to rely on Counterbalance countering the 3cc cards anyway, and you can always use the Force when you can't counter something with 'balance.

I think I might have to try 3 Macabres in the SB along with 2 Surgicals (as my 'yard hate) precisely because Reanimator is on the comeback, or so. Its a 3cc (for 'Balance) anyway but I dont know if its an auto side-in in KoTR decks.

[catmint]

I started testing the CB/top build now that everyone seems to agree it is the best option. From my little experience it is very strong against the decks you listed morbid though slow against reanimator. I think here I rather have Pierces.

However I do have some issues/questions:

Where are your other priorities concerning SB?
lets assume the following are set:
- 5 slots for CB/Top
- 3-4 slots for maverick/nick fit/mirror: Submerge/mind harness

- How do you split the remaining 6-7 slots between GY hate, Pyroblast and ancient grudge? Running only 2-3 pyroblast feels just wrong (altough there is lingering souls) and with less than 4 GY hate I don't think Dredge is winnable. When I look at the SB from the decks I am netdecking I feel they just give up on one end or the other...

Speller Pierce (vs. Stifle)
I played with and without Stifle maindeck and felt both options had a lot of merit. What I miss most playing with CB/Top are the pierces for the interactions before a CB hits the table. What are your conclusions on this question and is it influenced by the CB/TOP question? Did anyone try to run some mixed number of daze/pierce/snare?

SD.top in general
I feel the card is just not made for a 18-19 land deck running 8 cantrips. Very often I rather cast my cantrips before investing 2 mana (and likely a turn) to check my top 3. So it will sit in my hand for some time. Do you side out some Ponders and how do you value the card without counterbalance (which will happen frequently).

Thanks for the input

[Mark Sun]

<Pressing issues for RUG Delver's development>

I'm already playing Spell Pierce, so against Reanimator having both CB/Top and Spell Pierce is incredibly strong. For the record, I play the Reanimator deck as the control deck. I like to assign Reanimator's fundamental turn at t2, because with the assistance of a cantrip, they are very likely to have a dump effect. If the dump effect resolves, then 10 reanimation effects are turned on and RUG is very likely to lose. I want to stop the initial attempt if I can, which Spell Pierce does, and Counterbalance outlasts them.

Priorities concerning SB:

The way I have it set up right now, the sideboard is most concerned about the Top 3 decks. 5 Counterbalance package slots (for UW and the Mirror), 2 Artifact hate (for UW and Maverick), 5 Green creature hate (the Mirror and Maverick, although the Mind Harness doesn't come in against the mirror). The remaining three slots I have to devote the GY hate of some type. I've heard arguments for Surgical Extraction or Tormod's Crypt, and I'm still up in the air about it. The reason I have not been playing REB/Pyroblast is for a couple of reasons:

-UW shifts to playing more Elspeth, Knight-Errant, which REB doesn't answer. Spell Pierce does this well, and has splash damage in protecting your spells in the early game. REB inherently doesn't kill Stoneforge Mystic either.
- It's not really that useful in the mirror, although I'm sure it has its applications. I just feel like it's a weak topdeck, and doesn't answer the opposing Tarmogoyf issue, which you really need to lean on your own + burn, if it comes down to that.

Of course, this is under the assumption that I'm walking into a metagame where I'm likely to face UW, RUG, or Maverick multiple times on the day. If at any time the balance between these decks shift, I would have to reconsider my boarding strategies.


Stifle vs. Spell Pierce:

I was playing a 3/3/2 split of Spell Pierce, Daze, and Spell Snare and feeling rather comfortable with it. I will admit, I was a little adamant in fully supporting Spell Pierce over Stifle, though. This is something I want to think about more and address when I have better results. Spell Pierce, to me, was a card that took away some of RUG's pressing issues of mediocre topdecks and the t1 conumdrum of "threat or hold up mana for Stifle?" Having Spell Pierce and applications in the early, mid, and late game, Brainstorm's power level was increased a bit in the deck by drawing into less do-nothings. Having Spell Pierce instead of Stifle took away a crappy situation on t1, and allowed you to immediately assume your role as an aggressor by playing out the threat, not gambling and holding up mana for Stifle (which was NOT a guaranteed blowout if your opponent didn't fetch).

I forgot, however, that Stifle interacts pretty well against cards like Pernicious Deed and Engineered Explosives, which Spell Pierce may not be able to at times. Those cards haven't been seeing the play that they deserve, but it will be much more difficult to combat them once they do with only Spell Pierce.


Sensei's Divining Top:

I view this card as the 9th cantrip (more like the 8.5th). For this deck I feel like with 18-19 lands, you need to maintain at least 7-8 cantrips so that your deck velocity is high enough for you to operate. There are some situations where I can advocate going to 7, but for the most part, I do a double check to make sure there at least 8. For example, if I'm boarding out the Counterbalance package, I'm likely to bring out 1 Ponder, because I see the Sensei's Divining Tops as 0.5 cantrips each. Losing deck velocity is a huge issue, so I make sure to never drop too low.

As I stated earlier though, if there are any shifts in the metagame that would cause the Counterbalance package to be unplayable or unprofitable to play (for example, if Maverick took over the world tomorrow), those slots would be the first out in the sideboard.

[Einherjer]

When we play 1 Top in main Counterbalance would cost 5 slots.... as stated before 4 slots wont be necessarily enough for Dredge... so why not play something radical like this:

3 CB
2 SDT
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Submerge
2 Ancient Grudge

?

[Mark Sun]

My only fear of playing a card that isn't castable like Leyline of the Void is that it won't be in your opener 60% of the time, and is actually dead if you wind up drawing it. If you hit it, good for you and your chances of winning that game have astronomically increased, but if you don't, assuming you drew 7 in your opener, 4/53 remaining cards in your deck are completely dead.

Cards like Crypt and Surgical are cards that we sacrifice Leyline's power to play, but have an effect on the game at more than just the beginning of it. I can get behind moving up to 4 Crypt, for example, though.

[Vandalize]

It's funny the way Canadian Thresh (or RUG Tempo, for this forum) is always in the same loop of design and deckbuilding.

This deck will slowly shift towards Counterbalance + Top, until they tweak their deck into the complete action of the soft lock. I won't be surprised if someone start cutting Mongooses for 3-3 CBTop split, or even some burn.

And when this happens, it will start losing to AEther Vial and Dredge decks again (the first are pretty low on popularity nowdays). And it's fun because most of us have been there, and done that.

I'm not flaming or anything. I just think this deck needs to shift into something new and fresh, and Counterbalance + Top doesn't acually help against the matchups this deck has problems with (namely GWx Maverick and other Knight.dec). CounterTop is good versus Storm and Burn (being Storm a good matchup, and Burn a decent one?).

That being said, have you guys tested Terravore (as 2-of in sideboard) against GWx Maverick? This deck plays a good amount of fetches, and along with the mana-denial primary strategy, that guy can come out in mid-late game and just trample the brains off those Knights.

[Awaclus]

CounterTop is good versus Storm and Burn (being Storm a good matchup, and Burn a decent one?).
I believe Burn is a bad matchup.

[catmint]

I also believe Burn is unfavourable if the opponent is decent.

Concerning the combo matchup. Being used to heavy discard it is amazing how vulnerable you are at times. Lost 2:0 against DDFT running 7 chant effects main at my local tourney last week. Still combo is favourable in general, but it is not a walk in the park like playing BUG. CB is very welcome addition in RUG.

[Einherjer]

Counterbalance is very good against:

Burn:
Without CB - Even
With CB - Very good

HighTide:
Yet to test - but it sounds well doesnt it?

SlowStormcombo a'la DDFT
Without CB - Even
With CB - slightely positive, even without Top in play as Stormcombo-Decks need CC0+1+2 so it doesnt really care whats on top

Reanimator:
Yet to test - sounds medicore but not bad.

Mirror:
Without CB - Who has CB in SB wins?^^
With CB - A gamebreaking card and is even strong without a Top in play

So doesnt sound too bad?
Once again, as were short of SB-slots I propose
5 Slots for the CB
4 Slots for Maverick
4 Slots for GY-mechanics (maybe Leyline)
2 for Stoneblade - we could take Ancient Grudge here but maybe Sulfuric Vortex is better?

Greetings / critism appreciated :)

[Blitzbold]

Counterbalance is very good against:

Burn:
Without CB - Even
With CB - Very good


Depends on how fast CB lands.



HighTide:
Yet to test - but it sounds well doesnt it?


High Tide has some diversity in it's curve. You have to land CB as well as apply pressure here, otherwise they'll slow roll wish => bounce (Wipe Away?).



SlowStormcombo a'la DDFT
Without CB - Even
With CB - slightely positive, even without Top in play as Stormcombo-Decks need CC0+1+2 so it doesnt really care whats on top


Even against *slow* combo you need to assamble CB + top asap. Depending on their list their basics + Chants tops the tempo plan. Resolving a chant-protected DD means game over, as we can't burn them out after DD.



Reanimator:
Yet to test - sounds medicore but not bad.


CB probably is too slow here. Depends on what to take out - maybe all our soft counter will buy enough time to land it. If it lands it's probably very good. On the other hand, Reanimator is able to slow roll and also contains a lot of free countermagic. Additionally, as the CB-Top plan isn't very new, they might pack Show & Tell postboard.



Mirror:
Without CB - Who has CB in SB wins?^^
With CB - A gamebreaking card and is even strong without a Top in play


Obviously. :-)




So doesnt sound too bad?
Once again, as were short of SB-slots I propose
5 Slots for the CB
4 Slots for Maverick
4 Slots for GY-mechanics (maybe Leyline)
2 for Stoneblade - we could take Ancient Grudge here but maybe Sulfuric Vortex is better?

Greetings / critism appreciated :)

I like the idea of CB-Top in Canadian's board, but I also think that it doesn't help a lot against the bad matchups but rather just improves the even or favoured ones. Running only 3 CB also means that finding one in time won't be easy in quite a number of games.

Don't get me wrong, I love CB, but I'd rather play a more 'classic' sideboard strategy in Canadian. CB might be better at the moment, especially in the US metagame, but I am not sure about the German or the European one.

[Tombstalker]

I like the idea of CB-Top in Canadian's board, but I also think that it doesn't help a lot against the bad matchups but rather just improves the even or favoured ones. Running only 3 CB also means that finding one in time won't be easy in quite a number of games.

I agree with this. Also maybe its just me but 4 SB slots for maverick/bant/GWx aggro just isnt enough. Heres what im running atm and I still struggle sometimes.

3 submerge
2 mind harness
1 spell pierce
1 ancient grudge
1 krosan grip
2 pyroclasm
1 sulfur elemental
2 surgical extraction
2 grafdiggers cage

[Vedalken]

Greetings.
Has I decided to make a big come back for a 4 scrub land tournament (that I won undefeated) I decided to pilot the Kevin list with instead of the 2 forked bolt I ran 2 spell pierce.

Has far as I am concerned I really loved the deck and how it was able to establish itself as the aggressor.

I am currently going to a tournament of around 200 players for legacy in ottawa(canada) sunday.

Reading trough all the list, match ups, argumentation, testing and tourney result, People in search of a new way to make this deck more viable in the meta game wanted to change the deck tempo shell, removing stifle and replacing them with spell pierce.

People also tried to change the deck by changing the creature shell.
at start wanting the addition of snapcaster mage then cutting the creature base to 3 mongoose to make it fit. People then realized snap caster was way too heavy on the manapool.

Then I saw people wanting to put the deck on a more controlish base with the addition of the contertop package into the main deck.

As I may not have found a solution for all those problem here is the list I think I will run
sun day


Lands

3 tropical
3 volcanic
2 flooded strand
2 misty rain forest
2 scalding tarn
2 polluted delta
4 wasteland
1 island
( I run those lands for sergical extraction and I guess wannabe pitting needle -.-)

creatures

4 goyfs
3 mongoose
4 delvers

spells

4 stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 ponder
3 daze
4 fow
3 spell snare
3 spell pierce
4 lightning bolt

artifact
1 sensei's divining top

Sideboard
3 conterbalance
2 sdt
1 pyroblast
1 red elemental blast
4 tormods crypt ( I am currently wondering if sergical extraction is not simply better in general any tips would be welcome)
2 submerge
2 mindharness

The main problem with the list is the lack of board control that for example 2 chain lightning would give me witch mean that in the maverick I really have to counter the stoneforge mistic or Im just a dead guy.



-the 1 island.
Seeing that we are siding in the contertop package in a lot of matchups and that we never want to get screwed with those waste land I decided to had a island to make the deck more stable and I liked it so far. Also, Im expecting some bloodmoon painter deck sunday.

- creatures

seeing has I am getting flooded by beater most of the time when I would like to draw control. I decided to cut the creatue count to 11. seeing as we board the cbt alot and that we have 8 cantrip maindeck. finding a beater within 2 turn is a lot easier then finding that spell pierce when you really need it!!

-Spell pierce
Considering I run 3 spell pierce main deck and that I only have 4 burn to control creature. I think I would have to take a more creature aggro control oriented side board to make the maverick, knight bant deck more viable.

I am thinking of replacing 1 stifle by either a chain lightning or a dismember considering I am probably going to face alot of maverick and nic fit and that I am scarred of the match up^^.

I wanted to post my list mostly for feed back and because as far as I think this deck needs to evolve. It will only do so by adapting to the current meta game.
This list I thinks follows the idea pretty much.

-On a side note having a hand with a stifle a mongoose/delver and a spell pierce is just devastating and since I like both card I dont think we should choose between one or another.


ps: Has anyone else find sdt useless and sitting in your hand a lot? perhaps we could cut it up and simply make the contertop combo a 5 -2 sdt 3-cb in the sideboard (we already run 8 cantrip anyway.) also I read somewhere that you could consider the top as .5 of a cantrip making it viable to actually side out 1 ponder when siding in 2 top.

so regarding that sdt maindeck. we could had up another burn or maybe put a 12 creatures instead. Im thinking here of maybe a phantasmal image since it also pitch to Fow and help us against the knight matchup.

1 maindeck dismember isn't a bad idea either since it would pretty much do the same job as the phantasmal but it also turn nicely to cb. -sexy little tech right there^^.

I would appreciate feedback of what you guys think.

Edit: I just realised I would like to maybe fit 2-3 krosan grip/grudge in the sb. But where to fit them.
Edit 2: red elemental blast and pyro blast are only good against matchup where counter top is already our sided solution to counter them. do you guys think 2 dismember would be better instead of them. Im really expecting to face the maverick match up minimum 2 time sunday.

[pippo84]

I will post my list and some comments about it. I won a tournament on Sunday with it.
It plays more aggressively than usual Canadian because I wanted to have a better MU against aggro and Maverick.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
1 Forked Bolt
1 Fire/Ice
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland
7 Fetches

2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
3 Spell Pierce
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Submerge
1 Repeal

When I built the deck I wanted more Forked Bolts, but since I couldn't find them I played the full set of Chain Lightning and 1 Fire/Ice instead of 3 Forked Bolt total.
Having lost of burn you can aim at the creatures in early game and shoot the player in mid game. This worked against aggro, control and combo.
Having 12 creatures and 8 bolts was very aggressive and I never missed Spell Snare. Just burn the Stoneforge! The deck may have problems with fatties, but having a better clock than the opponent I just didn't care. When I played Dismember it was a dead card often.

If I'll find time I'll post a tournament report.
Btw in the tournament I never felt I needed CB + Top even though I played against MU's where some of you say that CB would have been useful. (Mirror, Stoneblade, Ant, High Tide).

[I am the brainwasher]

You got an quite interesting list here... .
IMO it looks decent but a split of 3 Chain Lighting/3 Forked Bolt might indeed work out better for what this list is trying to accomplish.
What should really concern you is the decreased number of pitch-cards to your FoW's.
The complete lack of Snare and weaker Force's might be back-breaking sometimes, otherwise I like the look of it and changing it towards something like this is a good way to fight through Maverick and Stoneblade.

[Final Ritual]

Here is the list I've been testing with my group. We just cut the Spell Snares because they were lackluster in playtesting.

Lands
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Island
4 Wasteland

Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 N. Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

Spells
4 Fow
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
3 Stifle
3 Spell pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
1 Thought Scour

Artifacts
1 Sensi's diving top

[pippo84]

You got an quite interesting list here... .
IMO it looks decent but a split of 3 Chain Lighting/3 Forked Bolt might indeed work out better for what this list is trying to accomplish.
What should really concern you is the decreased number of pitch-cards to your FoW's.
The complete lack of Snare and weaker Force's might be back-breaking sometimes, otherwise I like the look of it and changing it towards something like this is a good way to fight through Maverick and Stoneblade.

My list has "only" 25 blue cards for Force of Will MD, I think it's enough.
I actually always boarded Force out except against combo decks. Anyways yes, as stated earlier more Forked Bolt would have been appreciated, but I couldn't find them. I also have to say that Fire/Ice was gamebreaking when I used it.

I don't like Top in here because it's very mana intensive and does not flip Delver. Even with 30 drops I had problems flipping Delver in top 8!!
When building the list I discussed on Thought Scour, but we decided that Chain Lightning was better because it kills opponents creatures or deals 3 damage and fills the GY by one. On the other hand Thought Scour fills the GY by 3, but it can mill useful cards and thus is better with Snapcaster (that does not belong to this deck).

[Tombstalker]

Vedalken- I'm in the camp against CB, mostly due to sdt. Its just too mana intensive for us imo. That being said CB could function nearly as well without the top I think since 35 of your spells are cc1 anyway..frees up room for burn and more SB slots and that way you can still be aggressive instead of durdling top all game. Basically look at CB as a counter spell, if it catches one spell its card parity and everything else afterward is gravy.
Regarding nicfit and grave hate in general I do prefer SE and I advocate for grafdiggers cage. This card has a bad rap since it doesn't remove the yard. What I've found is that it usually does the job long enough to win vs reanimator and it shuts down engines, which dredge and nicfit are both basically one giant engine, elves too. Also it stops dredge from flashing back an answer.

I agree with you about reb blast although if you expect SNT the extra counters would be welcome. Personally though I'm tired of aggro so I dedicate the majority of my board to these Matchups. I can tell you that main deck forked bolt and boarded clasm effects go a long way here.
Lastly I love dismember. It hits what I need it too although occasionally I have to 2 for 1 myself vs kotr but that's better than auto dead.

Final ritual- sometimes snare sucks but its the only hard counter that 1 for 1 stops opposing goyfs, jitte, ooze, scm, thalia, sfm, gsz for 1 etc. I don't even side them out against maverick or bant because we need hard counters for some of these even if burn will handle a few.

[Vedalken]

is there anything else that could replace the ponder.
Having a sorcery when you want to stay open for a stifle is simply hella bad if they don't play a fetch.

2 many occasion tonight where this actually made me rage because at my turn I cant tap out to seek what I am searching for.

I cant actually remember what I was running years ago beside mental note or predict.

Any not bad / good replacement for ponder a (u) instant???

And can we agree on the fact that cbtop just doesn't help the match up that needs to be addressed with the sideboard slut. Its just not worth using 5 card for good matchup. Plus it open the spot of the sdt main deck that I want to play like 1 game every 10 game -.-.

Any thought on phantasmal image. I just cant see it as a bad creature especially since it can copy our own threat like a flipped delver (witch does miracle) but also themaverick knights or mother of runes and since we run 8 fetch and 4 waste land...

And I know this may sound rubish. But when do you actually want to play a 1 drop over staying open for that maybe stifle first turn. I found out that if I have mongoose in hand I prefer having my mana open since a 1/1 wont really change anything but If I have a delver in hand I prefer casting it first. also depend if I have a daze in hand or a snare/peirce. so what do you guys think on that turn 1 drop?
I also like the fact that the mongoose becomes bigger faster with the 4 bolt / 3 chain /3 fork bolt set up. Im going to test it up

I really like the burn split of 4 bolt 3 chain 3 forked bolt. although I would try to find the place to put in 3 spell pierce If I had no spell snare main deck.

Edit 1: tombstalker. how is the sulfurous elemental doing for you in the side board so far. is it worth taking 2 slot? or u think just one of is fine since its also good against those 1/1 flying.
Also, are the grafdiggers doing a good job for the gy hate, are there any other match up you would side them in better then for example tormods crypt? How is that singleton spell pierce working for you. I really like ur sideboard^^ it covers every bad match up we have.

-Vedalken

[Vedalken]

Well I am glad to present to you the first rug aggro list with the chance to win against maverick pre board at 80-20. It might even be more I simply dominated everything he tried to play.


land
4 volcanic
3 tropical
4 misty rain forest
3 scalding tarn
4 waste land

Creatures

4 delver
3 mongoose
4 goyfs


spell ( this is where it gets interesting I guess)

4 lighting bolt
3 chain lighting
3 forked bolt
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
3 spell pierce
3 daze
4 force of will
4 stifle

Well as the list is quite simple. hand with 3 bolt 1 delver where common and they allowed me to completely shutdown maverick post board.

I went into 8-0 vs maverick in testing.

I really like the deck now seeing as we keep all the mana denial( and even more vs maverick) we keep the controlish spell base. and we are able to make our delver and mongoose do a lot more pressure early game. ( note that mongoose fuel really faster with all those burn)

I am so glad to have finally found a list that wreck bant and maverick preboard.

Also in testing against combo the clock you put on them is way better.

Finally the list goes charm against dredge first game. being able to bolt our own dude is fantastic.

my last addition might be to cut 1 goyfs for a phantasmal image but this I think depends on the meta game. I like it because in the end it can pitch to Fow and since we have less blue spell now.

Try it yourself its ridiculous.

edit 1 :Well it might not be 80-20 but honestly I was so happy with the result geez it feels good to finally wreck the maverick match up. I will keep testing the deck but right now it just looks really solid.

[Tombstalker]

I'm glad its working for you and i like your build although I'm skeptical of 80/20 but I'm sure the added burn is good vs aggro. I think most of us have turned to playing 6 burn, and some like you even more. I think i will try out chain lightning in place of dismember. I currently roll with 4 bolt 2 FB 1-2 dismember (or 4th goose).

Tbh in your list I would consider boarding the 4th fow and dropping a single CL/FB to get the full set of daze and ponder. You don't want to lose velocity and stall out, and dazes alternate can be our card advantage with brainstorm against non mana denial. I'm gonna try this myself because the only games we keep the full set of fow in is vs combo anyway.

Not a fan of phantasmal image, in theory, since we run few threats as it is so we don't want any more that are vulnerable to say..opposing forked bolts or anything else in legacy that says target, of which there's a ton.

I'm really liking my latest side board although it can still change. Basically I decided not to pussy foot around my biggest most common problems anymore pretending it was enough. I wanna bring HATE.
Cage is good. Some like it some don't. There's really 2 kinds of effective grave hate, one shot bombs like crypt and continuous effects like cage (relic is out for us). Both have merits but I like taking away flashback and forcing them to have an answer in hand rather than force me to react and gamble my answer. Against dredge I think its king. I usually only board it for decks that win with their yard but also against decks that run more than one engine, like gsz + NO (rug/bant) or nicfit because without stifle a sac'd explorer blanks a third of our cards. What other card can drop t1 and blank 7+ vital cards for us against these strategies?
Sulfur elemental hasn't come out yet against tokens but it did kill mom a couple times and Thalia without being able to get pro red like against clasm. I'm undecided as of yet but so far not overly impressed. The ambush viper effect seems good but doesn't always net much value. Idk maybe I hold it too long looking for opportunity although maybe that's a sign.

[BKclassic]

Hey guys, here is the list I am running:

4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Taiga

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 Thought Scour

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt

4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

SB
4 Submerge
3 Spell Pierce
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Tormod's Crypt

Here are some thoughts:
-I really think that 8 1cc creatures is the way to go. You need a clock for Stifle to be effective, and having more than two lands in play isn't something we can count on. You don't want to have to tap out to play Tarmogoyf when you have Stifle in hand, and you don't want your hand to be clogged with Tarmogoyfs when you need to threaten Stifle or Spell Snare/Spell Pierce (or maybe Brainstorm).
-The random Scavening Ooze is actually really awesome. It helps manage all sorts of late game problems like Lingering Souls, Knight of the Reliquary and Tombstalker.
-I think the SB Sulfuric Vortex are pretty sweet as well. They attack the opponent from an angle that is hard to answer (like Mongoose), and make me feel better about not running Ancient Grudge to blow up equipment. Great against control decks.
-I am not really sold on Sulfur Elemental yet, but I need to test it more.
-If you are running Sulfuric Vortex and Scavenging Ooze, you are definitely going to want Taiga to make that more feasible. It should also help against Wasteland by preventing us from getting locked out of color.

[Vedalken]

[QUOTE=Tombstalker;627966] Tbh in your list I would consider boarding the 4th fow and dropping a single CL/FB to get the full set of daze and ponder. You don't want to lose velocity and stall out, and dazes alternate can be our card advantage with brainstorm against non mana denial. I'm gonna try this myself because the only games we keep the full set of fow in is vs combo anyway.

Well I really hate ponder right now in this deck for the simple reason that it is sorcery and I just hate taping out. But I still need it for draw so that's why its at 3. But I will prob boost daze to 4 and drop Fow to 3.

Honestly the 10 burn makes the match up a joke. there is nothing you cant answer. the worst they can get is battler skull but 5 game in a row they never got to more then 4 land since I can burn the noble hierarch and a lot of time I can 2for 1 a hierarch and a dryad harbor. stifling the next fetch or waste landing a savanah and then just proceed to win with the delver in play. the worst was when they try to plow your delver at 2 mana and you simply brainstorm into a spell pierce.
I played 5 other game vs maverick and went 4-1. the 1 game I lost was because He got 3 knight in a row and I couldn't handle them. with the sideboard, things would have been different.

Before adding a fourth ponder I would put back the 4th mongoose for a burn witch I think I am going to do since I'm probably going to face some random deck and the extra beating will be useful.

Also, why do you love ponder so much that you have to make a four of, you cant play it turn 2 most of the time because you play a drop. you dont want to play it turn 1 to fix ur hand because it leave you open to either waste land to either not stifle or to not be able to spell pierce any xenith for 0. I just hate the card-.-.( sorcery suck in this deck)

On another note I tested phantasmal and it lost me a game more then it won me any so I'm removing it.

I guess my sideboard for sunday will look like this. 2 surgical extraction 2 cage 3 dismember 2 pyroclasm 2 ancient grude 1 krosan grip. 2 submerge 1 mindharness.

Is that too much aggro hate since I got that many burn now? I am Kinda not scared of combo at all so I don't think I should put any slot and if I do what card would even do the job? any idea?

anyway thanks for taking your time to answer all my question^^

-Vedalken

EDIT 1: Bkclassic. How are the thought scour working for you?

[videogamer99]

Im playing the list that got second at the GP but I only have 2x Stifle available. Is it possible to play 2x Spell Pierce in it's place?

[I am the brainwasher]

Well I am glad to present to you the first rug aggro list with the chance to win against maverick pre board at 80-20.
I would be careful with such statements unless you've played against the cream of the crop with actual lists. I do understand that this list is tuned to whoop Mavs ass, (and looks pretty much like playing postboard already in g1) but Maverick is (as much as I hate to admit that) a very skill-intensive deck that is very complex. Don't underestimate the deck given it ti the right person.

land
4 volcanic
3 tropical
4 misty rain forest
3 scalding tarn
4 waste land

Creatures

4 delver
3 mongoose
4 goyfs


spell ( this is where it gets interesting I guess)

4 lighting bolt
3 chain lighting
3 forked bolt
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
3 spell pierce
3 daze
4 force of will
4 stifle

Well as the list is quite simple. hand with 3 bolt 1 delver where common and they allowed me to completely shutdown maverick post board.
Thought we were talking about pre-board here:confused:

my last addition might be to cut 1 goyfs for a phantasmal image but this I think depends on the meta game.
Please don't.

edit 1 :Well it might not be 80-20 but honestly I was so happy with the result geez it feels good to finally wreck the maverick match up.
Don't get that all wrong, I think the list is fine, but presenting it as the wholy grail might be a bit overeager.
I like that you didn't cut the Snare/Pierce completely (which I tested, and it was disgusting) and in this list Pierce looks awesome.

A possible sideboard for that list might be:

3 Submerge
3 PB/REB
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ancient Grudge
+3 slots

[BKclassic]

@Vedalken- I think Thought Scour is great. It makes running 4 Nimble Mongoose significantly better. I also really like having 9 cantrips, and having 6 of them be instants is also pretty sweet since you don't have to tap out as much.

[Tombstalker]

Vedalken- Ive had the same thoughts about ponder being a sorcery but its the next best thing to brainstorm we have and brings a needed shuffle effect, allowing us to dig a virtual 7 deep under pressure to look for business. The right number is definitely open for debate though and maybe the increased burn density lessens the need. Unfortunately the only instant speed alternatives either dont cantrip spy network natural selection or else only dig 1 deep opt. Predict or magma jet are probably the best replacements for ponder but cc2 just seems to much lately unless its for a 4/5 beater.

On a wishlisting note, if only there was something similar to flagstones of trokair for green then scythe tiger might be viable. A 1st turn shrouded nacatl is scary as hell. Sadly it probably wont ever be playable, and such a cool card too. I thought if I could make the whole deck cost 1 then the drawback might not be as noticeable. But then I tested it, briefly, as a 3-of, 2-of then 1-of and the results were pretty bad. Any crazy ideas here? Anyway I really like the direction these recent lists are going since CT needs to evolve.

BK classic- I want to get on board with ooze for the reasons you listed but the mana investment seems pretty hefty and oozes impact looks limited with the low number of lands we prefer to run. Goyf seems to fit our aggressive nature better but id be pleased to be proven wrong! No GSZ is the other issue.

[BKclassic]

BK classic- I want to get on board with ooze for the reasons you listed but the mana investment seems pretty hefty and oozes impact looks limited with the low number of lands we prefer to run. Goyf seems to fit our aggressive nature better but id be pleased to be proven wrong! No GSZ is the other issue.

I would only really recommend it for a decklist with 4 Mongeese and Thought Scour, because builds with just 3 Mongeese and no Thought Scour are much more dependant Tarmogoyf to bring the beats. The way to think about the singleton Ooze is that it is like running a singleton Vendilion Clique, but with much more relevant utility and ability to steal games, as well as being slightly easier to cast. The card is definitely a mid to late game card and is not always the card you want to draw, which is why having one to find with cantrips is really the perfect amount.

[Vedalken]

Well I agree about ponder being good that's why I keep the number to 3. plus I usually ponder to get control or creatures anyway so the added burn is simply more relevant to me.

The guy I practiced maverick got top 8 with it in a 200 person tournament 1month and a half aggo and he is a irl friend. (He doesn't do major mistake and pilot the deck like it should be piloted I guess)

today We played 5 2-3 and it went like this.
game 1 win-win
game 2 win-lose-win
game 3 lose -win-win
game 4 win-win
game 5 lose lose.

so I won 4 game of 3 vs maverick. some game I completly shuted him down and he couldn't play around my spell pierce and daze main hand while im killing all is mana producing.

10 burn with 7 cantrip and a delver in play that he cannot deal is simply amazing.

He won the last one because I never got a wasteland for is maze of it and he trolled my delver the whole game. ( well he only had to stop it for 3 or 4 turn to actually set up and then take advantage.) it was also the first game where he had 2 noble hierarch in game that I couldn't deal due to bad draw. and the second start well My mana denial plan didn't work and he had 2 plow main hand for my delver and a maze of ith for my goyf. he then drew a bigger knight and equiped the green blue sword and proceeded to rape me little by little -.-.( I was manaflood 2.)

All in all. believe it or not but between 4 stifle 4 waste land 10 burn to deny is mana source you can pretty much face roll maverick and bant. all you need is to counter is creature removal witch is easy when he has no mana to pay for spell pierce or daze.

Also I removed 1 fow for 1 daze and right now its doing miracle. having a daze in each of my hand is really amazing and if I know I dont need it I can always brainstorm fetch it into the oblivion of my deck.

Well tomorrow I am going to the tournament with this list

land
4 volcanic
3 tropical
4 misty rain forest
3 scalding tarn
4 waste land

Creatures

4 delver
3 mongoose
4 goyfs




4 lighting bolt
3 chain lighting
3 forked bolt
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
3 spell pierce
4 daze
3 force of will
4 stifle

2 surgical extraction
2 cage
3 dismember
2 pyroclasm
2 ancient grudge
1 krosan grip
2 submerge
1 mind harness

Wish me good luck :).
I'm also going to make a tournament report when I come back so...
going to a friend house to see how the dredge match up is going to be.
Hopefully the extra burn will make it to race them^^.

-Vedalken

PS: SPELLPIERCE MAIN DECK IS FREAKING AMAZING. IM NOT MISSING THE SNARE AT ALL OK THX BYE.

[Tombstalker]

Vedalken- glad the list is working out and I really like your board. Ive changed mine up to include 4 bolt/4 forked bolt main and ill be playing this list in the next day or two. I think 8 burn is probably optimal for unknown meta since I dont wanna become a lesser version of burn. Let us know how your tourney goes.

[pippo84]

@Vedalken: your list is very similar to mine with 10 burn spells and it wrecks Maverick all day long!

Difference from our lists:

-1 mongoose
-1 ponder
-1 daze

+ 3 pierce

From when I started playing with 4 Nimble Mongoose I will never go back! Having 8 critters at 1cc is amazing and you need 4 ponder and 4 Daze. I see that Spell Pierce is a good card, but I would just leave it in the SB.

Anyways I'm glad to see more people starting to play more burn spells!

Has anyone actually tested 1 Ooze or 1 GSZ in 1 Goyf's slot?

[Mark Sun]

Finished 21st at Baltimore, losing my win-and-in fake feature match to GW Maverick. There were some disagreements in the list I'm working on with a few others, so I just ran Drew Levin's list from the Invitational (with 1 Predict instead of the second Thought Scour), 74/75. I checked the Standings afterward, knowing what 18th and 19th played, and I'm pretty sure that I might have been the highest finishing RUG Delver player. Depressing news, but I'm not really surprised, since six of the Top 8 was Maverick.

Matchups were:

UR Painter Grindstone 2-1
UW Stoneblade 1-1-1
GW Maverick 2-1
Esper Stoneblade 2-1
UR Sneak Show 1-2 (Opponent made Top 8)
BUG Control 2-0
Enchantress 2-1
Combo Elves 2-0 (Fake feature match)
GW Maverick 1-2 (Fake feature match (http://starcitygames.com/events/coverage/round_9_mark_sun_vs_david_baue.html), Opponent made Top 8)

I still think that some changes would have to be made to consistently beat Maverick. But overall I was pretty happy with the list. I have a new respect for Sulfuric Vortex after the tournament as well. I got to use it once, and it plays right along with the tempo strategy.

[wcm8]

Can you explain the SBing strategy? I'm not entirely sure what ends up getting cut and what gets brought in.

The main criticism I would have with that list is the lack/type of GY hate. 2 Ooze simply aren't going to do enough against competent Dredge/Reanimator opponents, though I suppose you can just hope to dodge those matchups.

[Einherjer]

Im including the Vortex into the mainboard once and maybe twice in the side. It wrecks Stoneblade and is good versus Maverick aswell.

What was your list again? Still without Stifles right?

[Zirael]

Hi!

I play RUG for some time and I'm following this forum even longer but this is my first post here so please be tolerant :).
I've attended a Bazzar of Moxen trial with this deck:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose

1 Sensei's Divining Top

4 FOW
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
4 Lightning bolt
2 Fire Ice

4 Ponder

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Submerge
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ancient Grunge
1 Krosan Grip

My matches were:

1st round:
0-2 with affinity (guy sided perishes in and killed my 2 mongees and 2 goyfs and i got flooded both games but it was winnable...)

2nd round
2-0 with BW tokens

3rd round
2-1 with Bant

4th round
2-0 with Burn

5th round
ID with RU Delver

Top 8:
0-2 with WGR Maverick (2nd game i had 3 big goyfs and couldn't do anything with his 2 moms and knight :()


Some conclusions:
- I used my counterbalance sideboard only once... maybe i would use it against RU Delver. I wonder what could be better
- I got raped by maverick (couldn't do anything with knights protected by moms ). Maybe Engineered Explosives would be good here? 3 submerges are not enough.
- I had really good time playing this deck. I didn't know this meta but there where all kinds of decks. Not much combo thou.

[wcm8]

Sulfur Elemental is the 'new tech' to beat Mother of Runes as well as Lingering Souls. I would add 2-3 to your sideboard if those are problem strategies in your area.

[Adan]

It's no wonder why Counterbalance is bad since you have a maximum of 15 CC2 spells in these 75. Raising the maindeck CC2 spellcount to 15 requires you to board out good cards. So whatever you do, your deck will end up sucking.

And I still want to cut my eyes out when people do it and don't realize how bad it is.

IF you would play Snapcaster Mages I'd MAYBE understand it, but if your creature config is 4 Delver 4 Goyf and 3-4 Geese, Counterbalance has no place in the 75. These 7 slots should be 4 REB and 3 Spell Pierce.

[CorpT]

It's no wonder why Counterbalance is bad since you have a maximum of 15 CC2 spells in these 75. Raising the maindeck CC2 spellcount to 15 requires you to board out good cards. So whatever you do, your deck will end up sucking.

And I still want to cut my eyes out when people do it and don't realize how bad it is.

IF you would play Snapcaster Mages I'd MAYBE understand it, but if your creature config is 4 Delver 4 Goyf and 3-4 Geese, Counterbalance has no place in the 75. These 7 slots should be 4 REB and 3 Spell Pierce.

Yeah, what does Caleb (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7872&iddeck=57327) know. Maybe he just knew when to sideboard it in and when not to.

[Zirael]

I didn't use it because that configuration was good in big tournament, but because i wanted to try something else. I use to have 3 reb and 3 spell pierces in these spots and i found those 3 rebs not so useful. I rarely sided them in. Spell pierces where great thou.

Sulfur Elemental looks fine. It's great that it's instant speed.

I also tested Disrupt and it was fine but it doesn't improve any of RUG's bad matchups. I've seen some people mentioned Disrupt it this tread. Any tournament experience?

[Adan]

Yeah, what does Caleb (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7872&iddeck=57327) know. Maybe he just knew when to sideboard it in and when not to.

When a proplayer Top8s something with a wierd SB tech, it doesn't mean it's good. True story. This has been tested a couple if years ago and abolished for the same reasons. Addionally, CB-Top & Stifle-Waste are 2 concepts that go into opposite directions. And anyway, what are you actually trying to express? All I can interpret is that you are not capable of reflecting about something like this.


I didn't use it because that configuration was good in big tournament, but because i wanted to try something else. I use to have 3 reb and 3 spell pierces in these spots and i found those 3 rebs not so useful. I rarely sided them in. Spell pierces where great thou.

Sulfur Elemental looks fine. It's great that it's instant speed.

I also tested Disrupt and it was fine but it doesn't improve any of RUG's bad matchups. I've seen some people mentioned Disrupt it this tread. Any tournament experience?

@CB-Top: I might see trying it during a tournament, but so far there is no logical reason for me why I should play it. I'd prefer REBs and Pierces in the mirrormatch any day. Burn is the only matchup where CB-Top would absolutely kick ass.

Disrupt was good until Spell Pierce got printed. Pierce hits stuff that Disrupt can't (obviously...). Enchantments for instance. It's crucial against Enchantress to counter these 1st Turn accel or nasty stuff like Choke or Moat. It's also better against burn (hits Sulfuric Vortex) and planeswalkers etc.

But you really should run REBs. They are crucial against anything that runs Delver, against Reanimator (Jin, Show and Tell, Careful Study, countermagic), Spiral Tide (obvious) and even against Affinity (hits Tezzeret Bolas AND Master of Etherium, 2 cards that kill you singlehandedly). And against Dredge it can snipe random Moebas and most important: Breakthrough and Careful Study.
It's way more versatile than people think and one of the main reasons to play a red splash in general.

I was thinking about Sulfur Elemental as well. It kills Mother and Mindcensor and trades with a bunch of different shit. Magma Spray should also get an honorable mentioning because I hate Veteran Explorer and Kitchen Finks with a passion.

[CorpT]

When a proplayer Top8s something with a wierd SB tech, it doesn't mean it's good. True story. This has been tested a couple if years ago and abolished for the same reasons. Addionally, CB-Top & Stifle-Waste are 2 concepts that go into opposite directions.

I don't think you understand how/when he uses it. It is good against Burn and Storm. Anything that is playing a ridiculous number of similar casting cost spells that is otherwise a tough matchup. It isn't weird SB tech. It's pretty common actually. And it's in the board for a reason. It's very good against some matchups and very bad against other matchups.

[arbiter]

Hello, first time poster, long time reader. I wanted to share some new point of views with playing with countertop in this deck.

Here's some small report from a 52-person tournament where I piloted this deck a week back. Enjoy.

A Night before the tournament I was sure to be playing this deck but wasn't sure on the countertop package. During the nightly drin... ahem... testing, I decided to try it out and it played pretty well against my friend's Nic Fit, and also against Aggro Loam. (Not that much of accomplishment but still) I've always liked playing with countertop so I went with this list:

Lands (19)
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Island

Creatures (12)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Nimble Mongoose
1 Vendilion Clique

Spells (29)
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
1 Dismember
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance

Sideboard (15)
3 Submerge
2 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Krosan Grip
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Engineered explosives

So you can see, I moved the package to main, because I thought it would be easier to cut cards from main than from sideboard. I removed 3 Snare, 1 Mongoose, 2 Ponder, 1 Forked bolt, 1 Daze to fit the cbtop, Clique (more 3cc, not very useful that day, putting fourth daze next time maybe) and the miser Island (proved helpful at least in mirror and in case of wastelands/blood moon).

In the sideboard i would probably cut the EE for second cage, didnt need either much, but there's usually some graveyard based decks running around. Other than that I liked the list. I was expecting all kinds of deck but maybe more comboish and mirrorish, also maverick.

Here's a small match report of what I remember:

R1 Sneak And Show:
G1: He mulliganed to 4 or 5 and didnt put a single permanent onto battlefield. 1-0
G2: He had Emrakul. 1-1
G3: I got early Delver, I think and more counter than he. 2-1
1-0

R2 Bant:
G1: I got early Delver which didn't want to flip for couple of turns, until I got it transformed and protected by cbtop. 1-0
G2: I think i got early Delver again, which also didn't want to flip and then got slowed by maze of ith. After killing some dudes and destroying jitte and batterskull and wasteing the mazes, I was able to win. 2-0
2-0

R3 UR Delver:
G1: Both mulliganed, bolted dudes but I had delver and mongoose for the win. 1-0
G2: Resolved countertop, gg. 2-0
3-0

R4 GW Maverick:
G1: Lost to knight and co. 0-1
G2: Had a chance but made some ugly misplay, don't even want to remember. 0-2
3-1

R5 High tide:
G1: I have hand with no counter or draw, and know what he's playing but decide to go. I got mongoose and delver on the beatdown, he searches and draws but cant find the combo in time. 1-0
G2: He mulligans to 5 or 6, I resolve fast cbtop and a dude, he doesnt resolve a spell. 2-0
4-1

After looking standings I realize that I might have to play, but got paired up so we ID'd and top8 place was certain.
4-1-1

Top8:
R6 RUG ***** (the person i ID'd with, we played 1 game for fun before and I won):
G1: Fetched the Island and wasted/stifled him out, countering his counters. Finished with some beatstick. 1-0
G2: Opening hand 3 Wastelands and some other lands too. I fetched non-basics first to bait him and then wasted him out. Basic Island was crucial also here. 2-0
5-1-1

Semifinal R7 EsperBlade:
G1: Dont remember much, but i should've mulligan my hand. Lost to tokens with jitte.
0-1
G2: Didnt sideboard or played that well here, lost to batterskull. 0-2
5-2-1

At this point I was pretty tired and still had to wait for my opponent who was still playing first match of top8. After hour or two I got to my final game for 3rd place and Volcanic Island.

R8 Hivemind:
G1: I was pretty comfortable on this matchup, because usually he must go the Emrakul plan. Which I was crushed by in this first game. 0-1
G2: I Resolve early Delver or Geese and start beating. Exiled his show and tell's with surgical after intuition and countered the key spells. 1-1
G3: This was pretty long match overrall, don't remember much of this game but I got beating and countered his key spells. At his last turn alive he went for show and tell but luckily i had Force with blue card to remove, fortunately he didn't have the blue card for his own Force so, victory :) 2-1
6-1-1 Overrall record and Volcanic Island.

Feels like I threw the Esper match away, but I'm still happy for the deck and my finish, atleast after waiting five or-so hours for pizza delivery and ~3 hours of sleep :)

So in conclusion, I think in this meta the countertop was a good choice, and I think its easier to side out than in. I think I sided it out only against Bant and Maverick. Sry I don't remember the sideboarding in each matchups, but it was pretty basic I think. Hope this was worth reading. Good Night!

-arbiter

[Mark Sun]

Can you explain the SBing strategy? I'm not entirely sure what ends up getting cut and what gets brought in.

The main criticism I would have with that list is the lack/type of GY hate. 2 Ooze simply aren't going to do enough against competent Dredge/Reanimator opponents, though I suppose you can just hope to dodge those matchups.

First of all, I will comment that the context of the list was made for the Invitational. Most of the grinders were going to be playing Maverick, Esper, or the mirror so the list was designed with this in mind. Standard was also first, so I assume that Drew felt the best performing pilots in Standard would either be a grinder or unfamiliar enough with Legacy to play something like Dredge or Reanimator. Unlike my previous theory and boarding strategy, this is a situation where you pretty much have to keep all of your creatures in (I was consistently cutting Nimble Mongoose in the 4/3/3/4 split).

SB:

3 Sulfur Elemental
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ancient Grudge
2 REB
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Submerge

Sideboarding strategies are pretty basic, most of the flex slots are just your countermagic. No Counterbalance and I agree with it, as it opened up so much space to expand the sideboard almost. With Lingering Souls, the Stoneblade matchup is no longer about resolving the Counterbalance package, and of course it' still miserable against Maverick. I'll provide some examples of what I did (although they may not be fully correct):

Mirror: -3 Daze on the draw, -3 Force of Will on the play, -4 Spell Pierce, +4 Submerge, +2 Scavenging Ooze, 1 Life from the Loam

Esper (Lingering Souls): -3 Daze on the draw, -3 Force of Will on the play, -4 Tarmogoyf, +3 Sulfur Elemental, +2 Sulfuric Vortex, +1 Life from the Loam, +1 Ancient Grudge

Maverick: -3 Daze on the draw, -3 Force of Will on the play, -4 Spell Pierce, +4 Submerge, +3 Sulfur Elemental

Against Esper in the tournament I lost Game 1, and I wanted to try out REB, so I boarded out the Thought Scout/Predict so I could fit them in on the play. They were pretty narrow and I cut them on the draw for Game 3, especially since they are unable to answer the Stoneforge anyways.



Im including the Vortex into the mainboard once and maybe twice in the side. It wrecks Stoneblade and is good versus Maverick aswell.

What was your list again? Still without Stifles right?

Yes. Just Drew Levin's 74/75 from the Invitational. I was already cutting Snapcaster Mage and wanted to go to 4 Spell Pierce, so this list fit me perfectly. I wouldn't play a maindeck Sulfuric Vortex but it is quite useful.

[Tammit67]

Yes. Just Drew Levin's 74/75 from the Invitational. I was already cutting Snapcaster Mage and wanted to go to 4 Spell Pierce, so this list fit me perfectly. I wouldn't play a maindeck Sulfuric Vortex but it is quite useful.

Any changes you would make after playing that 75?

[I am the brainwasher]

Since 2 liters Coke light slapped my sleeping-rythm, I decided to do something useful. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23438-Dutch-Legacy-Masters-30th-with-Canadian-Threshold&)
Enjoy.

[Mark Sun]

Any changes you would make after playing that 75?

The only thing that I wanted in retrospect is something else I could have boarded in for combo. Without Snapcaster Mage, the list felt pretty weak against Sneak Show (obviously lost), as I didn't have much of a way to reload after stopping their initial attempt to go off. With access to Intuition and a ton of redundancy, the deck is actually quite hard to fight through.

[Tombstalker]

Mark great showing man I thought there were some pretty insane plays on both sides during your 'fake feature match'! Congrats.

Now on another note, ive been playing and playtesting my ass off on my list and everything is starting to blur so I decided to see what you guys thought. I need to cut a couple cards but I cant make up my mind. Help a brotha out please.

18 lands

Creatures
4 nimble mongoose
4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf

Instants
3 force of will
4 daze
4 stifle
3 spell snare
3 spell pierce
4 brainstorm
4 lightning bolt
1 dismember

Sorceries
2 forked bolt
4 ponder

Side Board
2 pyroblast
3 surgical extraction
2 submerge
2 mind harness
1 ancient grudge
1 krosan grip
2 pyroclasm
2 sulfur elemental

So im 2 cards over in the main and I need to drop 2 one-ofs, with bolded cards the main ones im considering but testing hasnt been conclusive enough, the rest im very pleased with. Ive moved pierces main to make room for more specific hate in the board. Help me make up my mind and include reasons if you dont mind since im kinda wishy washy at times and my brains fried.

[Tammit67]

The only thing that I wanted in retrospect is something else I could have boarded in for combo. Without Snapcaster Mage, the list felt pretty weak against Sneak Show (obviously lost), as I didn't have much of a way to reload after stopping their initial attempt to go off. With access to Intuition and a ton of redundancy, the deck is actually quite hard to fight through.

I'm trying to tune this for my meta, which should be almost exclusively Maverick + esperblade and the however many people without tier 1 decks. It's with this in mind I was looking to cut the pyroblasts for something like GY hate in expectation of dredge/aggro loam which are surprisingly prevalent at my locals, and the chain lightnings for forked bolts. What are the specific advantages of chain over forked (without the obvious '+1' damage to the face)? Without nacatl in the format, I think I'd rather have the added utility of forked at least in theory

[BKclassic]

I just 4-0ed a daily event on MTGO with this list:

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Forked Bolt
2 Chain Lightning

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Thought Scour

4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

SB
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Sulfur Elemental
2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Submerge
3 Tormod's Crypt

This was my first time trying out Countertop in the sideboard, which proved to be the right call as I played against Storm twice. I used to be against the idea of Countertop in the SB, but I think it lets you cut Spell Snare/Pierce from the MD, but still give you a solid win percentage against Burn, High Tide, Storm, the Mirror and to lesser extent slower control decks (Pierce and REB probably would be better against the slower control decks).

[JJ-JKidd]

Hello, first time poster, long time reader. I wanted to share some new point of views with playing with countertop in this deck.

Here's some small report from a 52-person tournament where I piloted this deck a week back. Enjoy.

A Night before the tournament I was sure to be playing this deck but wasn't sure on the countertop package. During the nightly drin... ahem... testing, I decided to try it out and it played pretty well against my friend's Nic Fit, and also against Aggro Loam. (Not that much of accomplishment but still) I've always liked playing with countertop so I went with this list:

Lands (19)
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Island

Creatures (12)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Nimble Mongoose
1 Vendilion Clique

Spells (29)
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
1 Dismember
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance

Sideboard (15)
3 Submerge
2 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Krosan Grip
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Engineered explosives

So you can see, I moved the package to main, because I thought it would be easier to cut cards from main than from sideboard. I removed 3 Snare, 1 Mongoose, 2 Ponder, 1 Forked bolt, 1 Daze to fit the cbtop, Clique (more 3cc, not very useful that day, putting fourth daze next time maybe) and the miser Island (proved helpful at least in mirror and in case of wastelands/blood moon).

In the sideboard i would probably cut the EE for second cage, didnt need either much, but there's usually some graveyard based decks running around. Other than that I liked the list. I was expecting all kinds of deck but maybe more comboish and mirrorish, also maverick.

Here's a small match report of what I remember:

R1 Sneak And Show:
G1: He mulliganed to 4 or 5 and didnt put a single permanent onto battlefield. 1-0
G2: He had Emrakul. 1-1
G3: I got early Delver, I think and more counter than he. 2-1
1-0

R2 Bant:
G1: I got early Delver which didn't want to flip for couple of turns, until I got it transformed and protected by cbtop. 1-0
G2: I think i got early Delver again, which also didn't want to flip and then got slowed by maze of ith. After killing some dudes and destroying jitte and batterskull and wasteing the mazes, I was able to win. 2-0
2-0

R3 UR Delver:
G1: Both mulliganed, bolted dudes but I had delver and mongoose for the win. 1-0
G2: Resolved countertop, gg. 2-0
3-0

R4 GW Maverick:
G1: Lost to knight and co. 0-1
G2: Had a chance but made some ugly misplay, don't even want to remember. 0-2
3-1

R5 High tide:
G1: I have hand with no counter or draw, and know what he's playing but decide to go. I got mongoose and delver on the beatdown, he searches and draws but cant find the combo in time. 1-0
G2: He mulligans to 5 or 6, I resolve fast cbtop and a dude, he doesnt resolve a spell. 2-0
4-1

After looking standings I realize that I might have to play, but got paired up so we ID'd and top8 place was certain.
4-1-1

Top8:
R6 RUG ***** (the person i ID'd with, we played 1 game for fun before and I won):
G1: Fetched the Island and wasted/stifled him out, countering his counters. Finished with some beatstick. 1-0
G2: Opening hand 3 Wastelands and some other lands too. I fetched non-basics first to bait him and then wasted him out. Basic Island was crucial also here. 2-0
5-1-1

Semifinal R7 EsperBlade:
G1: Dont remember much, but i should've mulligan my hand. Lost to tokens with jitte.
0-1
G2: Didnt sideboard or played that well here, lost to batterskull. 0-2
5-2-1

At this point I was pretty tired and still had to wait for my opponent who was still playing first match of top8. After hour or two I got to my final game for 3rd place and Volcanic Island.

R8 Hivemind:
G1: I was pretty comfortable on this matchup, because usually he must go the Emrakul plan. Which I was crushed by in this first game. 0-1
G2: I Resolve early Delver or Geese and start beating. Exiled his show and tell's with surgical after intuition and countered the key spells. 1-1
G3: This was pretty long match overrall, don't remember much of this game but I got beating and countered his key spells. At his last turn alive he went for show and tell but luckily i had Force with blue card to remove, fortunately he didn't have the blue card for his own Force so, victory :) 2-1
6-1-1 Overrall record and Volcanic Island.

Feels like I threw the Esper match away, but I'm still happy for the deck and my finish, atleast after waiting five or-so hours for pizza delivery and ~3 hours of sleep :)

So in conclusion, I think in this meta the countertop was a good choice, and I think its easier to side out than in. I think I sided it out only against Bant and Maverick. Sry I don't remember the sideboarding in each matchups, but it was pretty basic I think. Hope this was worth reading. Good Night!

-arbiter

Do you board out CB-Top package vs Maverick?

[Teknique]

Do you board out CB-Top package vs Maverick?


...I sided it out only against Bant and Maverick...

[Vandalize]

Just finished building this deck, and after some reading through this forum, I've brewed the following list.

Canadian Poop in Your Face.dec (I hate the way people call this RUG Delver or RUG Tempo):
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Thought Scour

SB: 4 Submerge
SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge

Sulfur Elemental is a nice tech, with all those Lingering Souls, Moms and Thalias running arround. I usually board like this against Maverick and Bant:
On the play: -4 Force of Will, -2 Thought Scour, -1 Stifle, +4 Submerge, +3 Sulfur Elemental
On the draw: -3 Daze, -2 Thought Scour, -1 Stifle, -1 Tarmogoyf +4 Submerge, +3 Sulfur Elemental
Is it worth to side Grafdigger's Cage in this matchup? It stops GSZ and Natural Order, but seems janky. Moreover, is 7 dedicated anti-Maverick slots worthy? I've decided to run more Burn main deck in the place of Spell Snare (didn't like Spell Snare against anything but Stoneforge Mystics, which can be burned).

Another point: the 8 fetches, should I play 2-2-2-2 split (blue fetches, ofc) to avoid Surgical Extraction, or that's 4-4 is fine? What about Thought Scour? They're janky, but they help Mongoose build some muscle.

Thanks in advance.

[Einherjer]

At home I play 4-4 Fetchies - simply because I like the flavor. But when I play on sancioned tournaments i play 2-2-2-2 as you dont lose anything but flavor :)

Why is everyone moving away from Spell Snares? Theyre good such alot of things. And yes Burn might solve problems like Stoneforge but does it counter a Burning Wish? And how are you going to burn a flashed in Scryb Ranger if the oponent has an active Mother of Runes? You are going to lose Tempo if you chainlightning the Noble Hierarch that got tutored with the GSZ you could have countered...

Greetings

[Zirael]

At this point i would never cut spell snares. There are some matchups where it is a dead card (like Dredge), there are some that it is weak (like mirror, high tide and burn i think) but there are many where it shines. Countering stoneforge mystic is so much better then killing it. Snare also takes snapcasters , bitterblossom, hymns, goyfs, thalias, teegs and many other. In those matchups where it's weak it's an easy choice what to side out.

And about chain lightning and forked lightning: i don't like that's sorcery speed. So i'll stick to fire // ice.

[wcm8]

Against Burn, I love holding a Spell Snare. It's insurance against Price of Progress and also against Keldon Marauders. It's certainly not the -best- card in that matchup but its not too shabby either.

High Tide -- you can counter Merchant Scroll with it, and they sometimes have some other targets.

It's surprisingly relevant against Nic Fit. They are often going to GSZ for 1 to get a Veteran Explorer, and a lot of builds play Diabolic Edict and other 2cmc black removal. They also tend to run Tarmogoyf and Scavenging Ooze.

Anyways...

Predict has been great for me lately. I'm running one in my build, but am considering going up to 2. I think this card is much, much better than Thought Scour.

[Tombstalker]

Vandalize- I haven't had the guts to side cage against maverick yet but my rule of thumb against non grave decks is to use it if they run more than 1 engine so if you're facing gsz+ NO I say yes. Also snare is very good against maverick and stone blade too. Snare always results in tempo loss and hard counters must stop spells for us like jitte, thalia, goyf, ooze, gsz, sfm and so on.

Lastly I agree on thought scour, instead of running more cards to activate goose just run 1 less goose and put 3 snares in. You won't regret these changes and upping your counters to 15 is a must IMO...I'm rolling with 17 right now and the difference is amazing. 12 creatures clogs sometimes and only 12 disruption makes for weak opening 7.

[Pherion]

Hello everyone,

I've been playing RUG Tempo for about two months now, and I've been loving it. It's my second serious legacy deck, and I think I'm about at the point where I fully understand each slot in the deck, and how changes will effect what the deck does. So here's my list, and I'll go over a few things at the end.

Lands:
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Island

Creatures:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Nimble Mongoose

Spells:
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt

Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Submerge
2 Pyroblast
2 Firespout
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
1 ----------------------------

Ok so a few things:

First off I just recently put the two Spell Pierce from the SB into the MD. I took out a mongoose and a one of Snapcaster Mage for them, but I haven't tested it yet. Does anyone have any experiance with Pierce in the main deck, and if it is worth it? Also, should I have cut something instead of the mongoose? I was tempted to cut one of the Ponders instead.

Next up is the Forked Bolt. These were Chain Lightning for a while, but the meta seems to be favoring Forked Bolt these days. I was considering Fire // Ice, but the 2 CMC seems a bit clunky for a T2 2for1 leaving us tapped out when it's the most important to be able to disrupt or land a threat.

Finally, over to the sideboard. I've been running different board wipe cards through my head, and ran Sulfur Elemental last Sunday in Baltimore, but I ended up facing no Maverick, and three burn players. I tested Pyroclasm a bit, but the lack of flexibility was frustrating. I'm looking to test Firespout a bit to see if the ability to conditional whip the board will be effective, but I'm not sure. I'm worried about wiping the ground, and not being able to get through with a delver, or wiping the air and hitting a wall with my Geese. I'd like to find something that Kill air and ground, but potentially leaves delvers and geese alive.... lol Finally, I'm not sure what to put in the last SB slot. Switching the Spell Pierces to the MD allowed me to fit in a fourth submerge, but I can't decide what the last card should be.

Thanks in advance for any comments, and I'll be sure to give my input to future posters!

[Tombstalker]

Pierce in the main is very very good because it frees up SB slots for specific hate against our hard matchups and increases the counter density to where it needs to be. Also 1 FoW to the board has been great for me. Here is what ive recently changed to and the results have been great so ill likely be sticking with this for quite awhile.


Creatures 11
3 nimble mongoose
4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf

Permission 17
3 force of will
4 daze
4 stifle
3 spell snare
3 spell pierce

Burn/Removal 7
4 lightning bolt
3 forked bolt

Cantrip Engine 7
4 brainstorm
3 ponder

Lands 18
4 wasteland
3 volcanic island
1 taiga
3 tropical island
3 scalding tarn
4 misty rainforest

Side Board 15
1 force of will
2 pyroblast
3 surgical extraction
2 submerge
2 mind harness
1 ancient grudge
2 pyroclasm
2 sulfur elemental


having at LEAST 15 counters main is a must IMO and I run 17 currently, with only 11 threats which I think is the perfect amount. This has significantly improved my opening 7. Also 7 burn feels optimal although I go back and forth on the 3rd FB vs a single dismember. Im not usually a fan of 1-ofs but the usefulness of dismember vs. reanimator and maverick is welcome, but the main reason I often run it is as a 3rd submerge replacement since I cant quite squeeze the 3rd one in the board, if that makes any sense.

The beauty of putting pierce main is what it does for our sideboard. This change along with FB main has completely turned my matchups around vs. maverick, bant, esper stoneblade, made the dredge matchup better (clasm) while maintaining a very solid game against reanimator and combo. Boarding into 8 hate cards is just sick.

I keep the cornerstones of the tempo package all at full set, i.e. daze, stifle, wasteland. My reasoning is I wanted to maximize our most powerful plays in the early game where we thrive. The only regret is the loss of 1 ponder from our cantrip engine since I play so many conditionally good cards but so far the effect has been negligible.

I do think pyroclasm and elemental are the 2 best sweep effects right now. Clasm doesnt kill goose but wipes pretty much everything else that firespout does for 1 less giving us the chance to leave counter magic up. Killing zombie tokens in dredge is also good. Firespout costs too much for sorcery speed when the extra damage and selection options arent usually even relevant.
Elemental otoh owns mom, thalia, soul tokens and so on and the flash + split second are what really make the card worthwhile, its like a red clique/mini elesh norn. Just my experiences so far.

Edit- I should add that the 3-ofs are where its at...they are like virtual 4 ofs anyway with our cantrip engine without clogging as much and make boarding far easier. Also pierce doesnt come out that often and its so good that its place really is in the main so I feel this is the natural progression of canadian. Thoughts welcome.

[I am the brainwasher]

Interesting.
After that slap at the DLM I sat down a bit and tinkered, coming to a pretty similar solution:

7 Fetch
3 Trop
4 Volc
4 Waste


4 Goyf
4 Delver
3 Mongoose


4 Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
1 Dismember

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

3 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
2 Force of Will
4 Stifle

Sb (currently):

3 Submerge
1 EE
1 Firespout
2 Sulfur Elemental
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ancient Grudge
2 REB/PB
1 Force of Will



Getting the feeling of playing postboard in G1 goes a long way.

[Pherion]

What does everyone think on Mana Base? I personally run 7 fetches, 6 duals and 1 basic island. I'm not certain the basic island is necessary, but until get my 4th Misty Rainforest I'm going to stick with it. I'm wondering why some people run an extra dual, and what the reasoning behind that is. I understand the few lists running 4 Tropical Island's and a few Scavenging Ooze, but I don't get the extra Volcanic Island. Ideas?

[Tombstalker]

Getting the feeling of playing postboard in G1 goes a long way.
I agree, and the extra counter density makes brainstorm even better in response to must stop spells further solidifying our counter wall. I like your board btw, seems better than mine in the mirror.


What does everyone think on Mana Base? I personally run 7 fetches, 6 duals and 1 basic island. I'm not certain the basic island is necessary, but until get my 4th Misty Rainforest I'm going to stick with it. I'm wondering why some people run an extra dual, and what the reasoning behind that is. I understand the few lists running 4 Tropical Island's and a few Scavenging Ooze, but I don't get the extra Volcanic Island. Ideas?
Basic island probably isnt necessary but its nice against the mirror and can make 1 land hands alot more desirable sometimes, say with 2 delvers + daze/fow/pierce backup (otp with a fetch or if the islands in the opening 7). Not sure on the 19th land, probably in response to large turnout of canadian in their area? idk, but 18 has been fine for me.

[wcm8]

I got first place in a 54-man tournament yesterday with the following list:

2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
2 Forked Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Spell Pierce
4 Spell Snare
3 Daze
1 Predict
3 Force of Will

Sideboard
1 Pyroblast
4 Submerge
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Sulfur Elemental
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Life from the Loam
1 Red Elemental Blast

My matches were:
2-1 Burn
2-0 Merfolk
2-0 Goblins
2-0 Bant
ID
ID

Top 8:
2-1 Dredge
2-0 Lands
2-0 B/W 'Deadguy Ale'-ish

I got extremely lucky in my pairings since I didn't have to face Maverick at all, which is one of the few decks RUG has a ton of trouble with.

I think the main board is perfect, even the single Predict which was awesome every time I saw it. I would definitely play 19 lands, and I think a Basic Island isn't really necessary. Stifle is pretty miserable right now, especially on the draw -- I lost the coin flip every single time except against dredge in the top 8. I don't think the deck really needs it at the moment.

The SB was fine, although I'd like to somehow find room for another Tormod's Crypt and possibly Sulfuric Vortex. Not sure what I'd cut.

[Kl'rt]

Caleb Durward's GP Indy report:

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-keeping-it-thresh/


By the way, can we get the name of this thread changed to Canadian Threshold instead of "RUG Tempo"? The reason some people call this deck "RUG Tempo" is because Starcitygames keeps calling it "RUG Tempo". They refuse to acknowledge this deck as Canadian Threshold because they said it was a player at one of their SCG Legacy Opens who innovated this deck with Delvers and Snapcasters. A deck archetype's name should not be changed just because two cards were added to it. Existing deck archetypes are constantly evolving, but they don't change names every time they do. Wizards of the Coast called this deck Canadian Threshold at GP Indy, and so many people around the world still know this deck as Canadian Threshold. Why should we conform to what SCG does?

[Mark Sun]

Why do we care what the deck is called, as long as we understand the principles and components of it?

[ImpinAintEasy]

Why do we care what the deck is called, as long as we understand the principles and components of it?

Where is the "Like" button?

[wcm8]

Having the descriptor 'Tempo' tells us a lot more about the deck's components than having some unrelated name. It's unfortunate to lose that piece of history, but the modern incarnation of the deck *is* different than the original Canadian Threshold build. Having 11-12 aggressive creatures makes the deck play out very differently than the classic 8-creature build.

[sdematt]

People feel the need to put labels on everything, especially women, or Magic players. There's this obsession to quantify.

-Matt

[Pherion]

Caleb Durward's GP Indy report:

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-keeping-it-thresh/

I read the report, and it says he sided out Wastelands in game 2 for the Counterbalance package. I'm curious how effective it is siding out Wastelands. It drops our total mana base down to 14 lands. While those wastelands don't cast most of the deck, they do help push out Tarmogoyfs, Snapcaster Mages and Scavenging Ooze. Is it really that good to go down to 14 land to side in a card that costs 2U to cast? I mean is the cantrip effect that good to get us up to 2 lands quickly enough?

[Einherjer]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23475-RUG-Tempos-real-name&p=630178#post630178

[wcm8]

Can someone please explain why Sulfuric Vortex is worth the sideboard slot?

Ok, so I get that we are generally the aggressor in most matchups, and landing it prevents all lifegain and puts the opponent on a clock. I also can easily see how its pretty amazing against a UWx Blade deck. But aside from that matchup, where does this card really shine? Where does it get sided in?

I mean, even if they aren't gaining life from Jitte/Batterskull/Sword of X&Y, you still really do not want them to have those things on the field. Cutting Ancient Grudge for Vortex seems really bad, especially when you consider the possibility of running into other random matchups with must-answer artifacts in them. I love it when a UW Blade opponent has to go through a bunch of hoops just to land their equipment, only to have it be Grudged on arrival. Sulfuric Vortex just telegraphs your plans and they can possibly find a way to work around it.

-Against combo, it seems way too slow and I'd rather just side in more Sulfur Elementals if I wanted to increase the clock.
-Against other aggressive decks, it seems like a very risky play. I can't see it really coming in against a deck like Maverick, not too mention any other deck that wins by turning guys sideways.
-Against other control decks, they might have outs to it that ends up getting yourself killed by it.

Costing 1RR also makes it rather awkward to even cast early on.

Someone please school me on the card?

[Fade]

Can someone please explain why Sulfuric Vortex is worth the sideboard slot?

Ok, so I get that we are generally the aggressor in most matchups, and landing it prevents all lifegain and puts the opponent on a clock. I also can easily see how its pretty amazing against a UWx Blade deck. But aside from that matchup, where does this card really shine? Where does it get sided in?

I mean, even if they aren't gaining life from Jitte/Batterskull/Sword of X&Y, you still really do not want them to have those things on the field. Cutting Ancient Grudge for Vortex seems really bad, especially when you consider the possibility of running into other random matchups with must-answer artifacts in them. I love it when a UW Blade opponent has to go through a bunch of hoops just to land their equipment, only to have it be Grudged on arrival. Sulfuric Vortex just telegraphs your plans and they can possibly find a way to work around it.

-Against combo, it seems way too slow and I'd rather just side in more Sulfur Elementals if I wanted to increase the clock.
-Against other aggressive decks, it seems like a very risky play. I can't see it really coming in against a deck like Maverick, not too mention any other deck that wins by turning guys sideways.
-Against other control decks, they might have outs to it that ends up getting yourself killed by it.

Costing 1RR also makes it rather awkward to even cast early on.

Someone please school me on the card?

It's supposed to put pressure on your opponent. Since this deck is very fast it can win by gaining a life advantage and throwing down Sulfuric Vortex to finish them. This is often enough to kill them even if your opponent starts to take control. When talking with a local RUG player, he said it helped primarily for the Maverick match.

[wcm8]

Well anything to help that matchup would be appreciated, and I'll certainly give it some testing. It just seems like you could get into a situation where you drop that, and then they land a Thrun/KotR and then you're in a very awkward position. Maybe with having your early guys get through you can win the race with Vortex and Burn.

[Mark Sun]

Sulfuric Vortex comes in against slower decks and decks that might have some inevitability over your creature threat base.

Since the core of RUG Tempo is designed to race, you want to be in a position to assign yourself as the aggressor, and have a card like Sulfuric Vortex finish up. To address your concerns about it against a control deck. Sure, I guess they can hypothetically have an out to it, for example UW Stoneblade can board in a non-zero number of Disenchants to answer Sulfuric Vortex. This means that they (1) have to know for sure that you run this card, and (2) they're boarding in fucking Disenchant.

If you never draw Sulfuric Vortex, the out they boarded in is just another dead card, very similar with having Nimble Mongoose in play while they drool over some Swords to Plowshares in their hand. I wouldn't bring it in against Maverick personally, since game states can change very rapidly, but to each his own.

[DragoFireheart]

Sulfuric Vortex gives you that inevitability when you run out of gas. It also prevents the opponent from regaining life and undoing the damage you did to them. It sees play in Burn decks for these reasons. It's a card that is a good finisher and if they waste SB cards to board in an answer for a card-type that doesn't match 90% of your deck, they could draw it and have a dead card in their hand.

[wcm8]

Ok, fair enough. I guess the follow up question then is, what gets cut?

I am currently thinking that this is the best sideboard:

2 REB/Pyroblast
4 Tormod's Crypt (possibly cut 1 for a Life from the Loam)
3 Sulfur Elemental
4 Submerge
2 Ancient Grudge (or 1 Grudge/1 Krosan Grip)

What would you cut for Vortex? I think the cards above are your best options going into an unknown field. Maybe cut 1 Sulfur Elemental for 1 Vortex? Someone also suggested cutting the 2 REBs for 2 Vortices, but I have always loved having blasts for any deck playing a decent amount of blue.

[Also, I don't find Counterbalance to be a fantastic SBing strategy for the deck, or at least my build. Since I am already running 4 Spell Pierce in the main, my combo matchup is pretty decent to begin with, and clogging up the board with 6 narrow slots seems to be a waste of space.]

[edit 2: I also don't like Scavenging Ooze in the build I'm playing. I've tested it and while it's okay against slower graveyard strategies, it's just way too damn slow against Reanimator and Dredge.]

[I am the brainwasher]

I am currently thinking that this is the best sideboard:

2 REB/Pyroblast
4 Tormod's Crypt (possibly cut 1 for a Life from the Loam)
3 Sulfur Elemental
4 Submerge
2 Ancient Grudge (or 1 Grudge/1 Krosan Grip)


Also, I don't find Counterbalance to be a fantastic SBing strategy for the deck

This.

Also:
Sulfuric Vortex, while beeing an awesome card, was anything but useful in any matchup people want it to be good.
Not that I want to step on anyones toes here, but what does this card do for the deck?
This is just a horrible creature replacement that does not allow your opponent to, uhm, what?
Gain life with a connecting Batterskull (at which point you normally already lost the game anyway), send his own guys farming (at which point you should have already won the game) or negating a single ability from Jitte? Seriously?
I don't get it and even after giving the card a spin, I hated how conditional that card was. There are so many situation you do not want to have this in hand/on the board and the scenario where this shines is an extract from the great book of Magic-Wonderland. Sulfur Elemental? Fine, I get that, but Vortex... .
Anyone is invited to light me up here, but I do not see what the card does for the deck.

[juppal]

This.

Also:
Sulfuric Vortex, while beeing an awesome card, was anything but useful in any matchup people want it to be good.
Not that I want to step on anyones toes here, but what does this card do for the deck?
This is just a horrible creature replacement that does not allow your opponent to, uhm, what?
Gain life with a connecting Batterskull (at which point you normally already lost the game anyway), send his own guys farming (at which point you should have already won the game) or negating a single ability from Jitte? Seriously?
I don't get it and even after giving the card a spin, I hated how conditional that card was. There are so many situation you do not want to have this in hand/on the board and the scenario where this shines is an extract from the great book of Magic-Wonderland. Sulfur Elemental? Fine, I get that, but Vortex... .
Anyone is invited to light me up here, but I do not see what the card does for the deck.

I'll answer your question by defining both abilities of sulfuric vortex more clearly. The first ability is a creature, by nature this deck has to race other decks ( without the CB package, there is no late game, just more early game cards). Sulfuric vortex is an unblockable creature that can cause decks like stoneblade and creature light decks to suffur from not having a strong clock, also note, vortex can kill planeswalkers, which is the win condition for many blue based decks.
The second ability is the whole reason that equipment becomes useless against this deck, the only equipment that can race this deck is a life gaining one ( especially with a required two damage every turn). By the time most equipment is resolved and attached, they are already at a low life, this is known by those playing equipment, their saving grace is the ability to recoup lost life with batterskull/jitte activation/ Light and Shadow. The equipment's ability to power creatures is irrelevant due the amount of creatures that RUG plays that can block while vortex does the rest.
This is why this card is exactly what RUG wants to be playing, an inevitable endgame, which can stop the opponent from climbing back in.

[Einherjer]

How can Vortex kill Planeswalkers?

[Koby]

How can Vortex kill Planeswalkers?

Deal 2 damage, redirect to Planeswalkers.

[I am the brainwasher]

I'll answer your question by defining both abilities of sulfuric vortex more clearly. The first ability is a creature, by nature this deck has to race other decks ( without the CB package, there is no late game, just more early game cards). Sulfuric vortex is an unblockable creature that can cause decks like stoneblade and creature light decks to suffur from not having a strong clock, also note, vortex can kill planeswalkers, which is the win condition for many blue based decks.
The second ability is the whole reason that equipment becomes useless against this deck, the only equipment that can race this deck is a life gaining one ( especially with a required two damage every turn). By the time most equipment is resolved and attached, they are already at a low life, this is known by those playing equipment, their saving grace is the ability to recoup lost life with batterskull/jitte activation/ Light and Shadow. The equipment's ability to power creatures is irrelevant due the amount of creatures that RUG plays that can block while vortex does the rest.
This is why this card is exactly what RUG wants to be playing, an inevitable endgame, which can stop the opponent from climbing back in.

My game-plan is normally to not even get hit by a equipment by destryoing the creature that is carrying it, the equipment itself or keeping the opponent off of mana, that he can't durdle around with these things, which is not such a huge concern that I consider making space in the sb for such a conditional card.
Getting raced back is way more common than grinding out games with Tarmo-wall and I can not think of any card I want less in my opener, mid or early game, where I normally spend mana to disrupt the opponent while having a clock.
Beeing in the need of this effect might be based upon differences in lists or personal playstyle (comparing american and european lists is like comparing sugar and salt most of the time), but I am truly not convinced that this card does enough in the common MU's nowadays to justify running it.
Burn -> fail
Mirror -> fail
Dredge -> fail
Combo -> fail
random-ass decks -> fail
Maverick -> meh
Stoneblade -> decent
Nic Fit -> great

[wcm8]

A possible consideration to help beat Maverick: running maindeck Pyroclasm or Rough // Tumble. Killing off Hierarchs/Arbors is essentially like casting Sinkhole, and aside from KotR and Ooze, the majority of Maverick's creatures will also die to the sweepers.

The narrow advantage with Rough over Pyroclasm is that it won't kill your flipped Delvers.

These cards can also be useful against many other decks -- tribal aggro, combo elves, Affinity, Belcher/Storm goblin tokens, and even against Dredge in Game 1 -- you can clear the board, including one of your own creatures to remove their bridges.

I find that I generally board out 2 Forked Bolt in my list against combo/control anyways, so if the card is just there against aggro, why not step it up a notch?

This inclusion isn't going to suddenly make the Maverick matchup a walk in the park, but I do think it could go a ways towards making it a bit closer.

[xfxf]

Getting raced back is way more common than grinding out games with Tarmo-wall and I can not think of any card I want less in my opener, mid or early game, where I normally spend mana to disrupt the opponent while having a clock.
Beeing in the need of this effect might be based upon differences in lists or personal playstyle (comparing american and european lists is like comparing sugar and salt most of the time), but I am truly not convinced that this card does enough in the common MU's nowadays to justify running it.

Are you talking about Tarmogoyf here as the card you don't want to see in your hand?

[wcm8]

Are you talking about Tarmogoyf here as the card you don't want to see in your hand?

No, he's talking about Sulfuric Vortex.

[I am the brainwasher]

No, he's talking about Sulfuric Vortex.

Obviously this:laugh:.

Rought/Tumble is often more of a card that I would call "nice to have" than really beeing in the desperate need of it.
Even if Maverick lists are dropping their number of Aven Mindcensor for Thalia, the fact that it doesn't hit flying creatures can be a pain. The impact it can have on the game is something that is indeed relevant, but often you really curse it for not hitting BoP, Narcomoeba, Scryb Ranger, Mindcensor, Spirit-Token and even sometimes Clique and Kira.
Pyroclasm is an awesome sb-card right now, but cantripping/topdecking it while racing with Delver is just awkward. Firespout seems like the next best thing, but the casting cost is really shitty in front of Wasteland, Thalia and Spell Pierce and has the same wekness as R/T sometimes. Bit sad, cause it could do nasty things in the mirror on the draw.
Since the printing of Delver, Threshold is possible to out-race a lot of Aggro-decks, but Pyroclasm would still be very, very nice.

[Einherjer]

I had an 9h legacy-afternoon today and I was playing alot of decks, but most of the time Canadian Threshold. Id like you guys to comment on my Sideboard:

1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
3 Submerge

Maverick-MU was fine - I boarded Submerge, Vortex and Elemental
Stoneblade-MU was very good
HighTide was okay
Reanimator/Dredge-MU was bad :/
MonoB Reanimator was even worse
Other decks were fine aswell - so what can I do in order to win against the GY-decks? Putting more than 4 Slots for this specific MU sounds a little weird.

What do you suggest?

My mainboard includes 4 Stifle and 2 Forked Bolt - the rest a playset of everything, but 3/3 Duals.

Greetings

[Tombstalker]

By full Odyssey of everything do you mean 4 pierce main or snare? Obviously pierce is Better against both but we have about as good a match as you could hope for against those decks already. What was the problem and was reanimator splashing red? Also how was vortex? Seems kinda weak.

[Einherjer]

Snare main, no Pierce.

Reanimator wasnt splashing Red. I dont know I just seemed to be on the weak side of the table everytime, maybe I just need more practise on this particular MU.

Vortex was great vs Stoneblade. It won me 7 out of 8 games I dropped it- so quite a considerable high score I guess. It was okay was Maverick but vs Stoneblade it was pretty much game.

Greetings

[Mark Sun]

Against Reanimator, I personally play as the control deck in that matchup.

Playing threats and tapping out early plays into their plan of protecting Careful Study/Entomb. Without a discard outlet (8 ways), they will have a hard time functioning. Letting it resolve is much more dangerous, as it turns on 10 reanimation effects in the deck. The matchup was a lot easier with Snapcaster Mage, so admittedly if you're not playing it, things might be different. Spell Pierce is also a house against them; I noticed you're not playing any.

[wcm8]

I had an 9h legacy-afternoon today and I was playing alot of decks, but most of the time Canadian Threshold. Id like you guys to comment on my Sideboard:

1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
3 Submerge


Do you feel like you *need* 3 Red Blasts? 2 is generally fine for me. I would consider cutting 1 for either another Sulfur Elemental or Life from the Loam. However, if your metagame is heavily blue-infested, 3 is fine.

Do you really like Stifle in the maindeck? I have dropped them in favor of Spell Pierce and don't think I'd go back in the near future. I actually feel like Spell Pierce is the more 'aggressive' card of the two, because we can use it to protect our threats from removal or force them through opposing counterspells. It will also really help out against combo matchups, even Dredge in pre-SB games.

I think I would drop some number of the Surgical Extractions in favor of Tormod's Crypt. Maybe not entirely, but either a 2/2 or 3/1 split in favor of Crypt. I made the switch to running 4 Tormod's Crypt as my GY hate of choice, and I think its just better overall, especially against Dredge.

[Tombstalker]

What mark sun said. I suggest pierce main, but in addition to stifle.

[Dzra]

What mark sun said. I suggest pierce main, but in addition to stifle.

I also think that Spell Pierce works better with Stifle than without it. Although I think that I'd pick more Forked Bolt over Spell Pierce. I still like Snapcaster as a 2-of in the deck, especially with Forked Bolt. 3-for-1ing someone has a certain appeal to it. Ideally, I'd like to run 3 Stifles, 2 Pierce, and 2-3 Forked Bolts, but room is tight and Snapcaster is more versatile than Spell Pierce.

I suppose I could drop the 4th Ponder and the 3rd Forked Bolt for 2 Spell Pierce. Dropping to 3 FoW seems highly counterproductive for a tempo deck, but I'm not sure I feel comfortable on only 18 lands without the full set of Ponder.

[cheerios]

I also think that Spell Pierce works better with Stifle than without it. Although I think that I'd pick more Forked Bolt over Spell Pierce. I still like Snapcaster as a 2-of in the deck, especially with Forked Bolt. 3-for-1ing someone has a certain appeal to it. Ideally, I'd like to run 3 Stifles, 2 Pierce, and 2-3 Forked Bolts, but room is tight and Snapcaster is more versatile than Spell Pierce.

I suppose I could drop the 4th Ponder and the 3rd Forked Bolt for 2 Spell Pierce. Dropping to 3 FoW seems highly counterproductive for a tempo deck, but I'm not sure I feel comfortable on only 18 lands without the full set of Ponder.

I have to agree with you that Snapcaster can still fit in the deck. I'm still running him in my md and haven't been disappointed so far. I'm running 3 forked bolts and 3 Snaps, the configuration just beats the hell out of aggro decks. Are you still running main deck spell snares? Or have cut them in favor of spell pierces?

[Dzra]

I still MD 3 Spell Snares for now and I can't really see cutting them further. At the moment, I'm also running 3 Forked Bolt but have gone down to 2 Snaps (my list is in my sig). Would going down to 3 Ponders be out of the question with only 18 land? It seems very greedy, but I don't know where else to squeeze in Spell Pierce.

[cheerios]

I still MD 3 Spell Snares for now and I can't really see cutting them further. At the moment, I'm also running 3 Forked Bolt but have gone down to 2 Snaps (my list is in my sig). Would going down to 3 Ponders be out of the question with only 18 land? It seems very greedy, but I don't know where else to squeeze in Spell Pierce.

I used to run a configuration with only 3 ponders, it didn't have that much of an effect, but I will not endorse modifying the 4 brainstorm, 4 ponder core of this deck. I'm now running the full four again, it helps smoothen out draws and ensures that delver always transforms.

[Einherjer]

Yay we finally got a good thread-name - for those who care :)

I was thinking of putting in 4 Leylines of the Void - in order to beat this damn GY-based decks with consistency. It does weaken our MU vs HighTide as we can not board in any extraction effects any more but I think thats okay.

Greetings

[wcm8]

Yay we finally got a good thread-name - for those who care :)

I was thinking of putting in 4 Leylines of the Void - in order to beat this damn GY-based decks with consistency. It does weaken our MU vs HighTide as we can not board in any extraction effects any more but I think thats okay.

Greetings

Nooooo don't play Leyline. You have no way of casting it, so every one after the mulligan will be a completely dead draw. Play Tormod's Crypt (and maybe a Surgical Extraction or two). With Ponder and Brainstorm, you'll be able to find it early on if you don't have one in your opener. Against a deck like Reanimator, you don't want to be mulliganing into oblivion just to find one piece of hate. You're better off keeping an 'okay' hand with a few Spell Pierce, FoW, Daze, etc. to counter their Entomb/Careful Study. And even against Dredge, you generally have a couple turns to set up and defend yourself -- if you're on the play, you can keep a similar hand and stop their early discard outlets while you search for a Crypt. These GY decks generally have a way to destroy/circumvent Leyline, so it's actually one of the weakest pieces of hate in Legacy in my opinion...

[Tombstalker]

I agree with wcm8. On ponder I've dropped to 3 recently but I have missed the 4th here and there so I brought the 4th back. I run 3 of pierce snare fow and 4 daze/4 stifle plus full cantrip engine but that puts me at 61. Its either that or go down to 3 stifle which seems appealing, only 2 snare or only 3 ponder. All the 3-ofs are perfect otherwise. I will say that if running 4 of everything then 1 ponder may not hurt much but 3-ofs as virtual 4-ofs probably needs the full engine. The easiest fix would be to drop the 3rd forked bolt but its been amazing so far so I hate to do that and 7 burn feels optimal. Also props to who ever suggested taiga, its way better than the basic island or 4th trop.

[catmint]

I am a fan of mixing up the number of snare/pierce/daze/fow/... or also maybe cutting down Ponder to 3.

With stifle I am not that sure if 3 is ok or if it should be a 0 or 4 card. My buddy brought this up saying: "Stifleing the first land has the most value". I am not that sure about it... stifleing the 3rd/4th land WHILE delver/goyf is attacking is also pretty good.

How do you feel about the 0 or 4 question?
I think it applies to stifle much more than to the other counterspells... maybe daze as well.

I also heard this simplified rule of thumb:
4: you want it in starting 7 and multiples are not bad
3: you want it in startin 7 but no multiples
2: you want it at some point in the game
1: tutor target

Daze and Stifle are spells where 2 are not an option for me and 4 might be necessary since they are strongest in the early game.

[TarmoX]

I am a fan of mixing up the number of snare/pierce/daze/fow/... or also maybe cutting down Ponder to 3.

With stifle I am not that sure if 3 is ok or if it should be a 0 or 4 card. My buddy brought this up saying: "Stifleing the first land has the most value". I am not that sure about it... stifleing the 3rd/4th land WHILE delver/goyf is attacking is also pretty good.

How do you feel about the 0 or 4 question?
I think it applies to stifle much more than to the other counterspells... maybe daze as well.

I also heard this simplified rule of thumb:
4: you want it in starting 7 and multiples are not bad
3: you want it in startin 7 but no multiples
2: you want it at some point in the game
1: tutor target

Daze and Stifle are spells where 2 are not an option for me and 4 might be necessary since they are strongest in the early game.

I really agree with catmint that Stifle and Daze are crucial in the early 4 turns then we have to board the playset or just dont use them!!!

Is really good Forked Bolt??? I see much better Chain Lightning for the last 3 burn slot (+1 dmg may help)

[wcm8]

Stifle

Here is my argument -against- Stifle I posted in my UBr Team Grixis thread:

-Most decks are constructed with better mana bases these days, including playing a more reasonable number of lands
-The curve of Legacy in general is lower right now, so unless your opponent kept an incredibly loose hand, Stifling a fetch or two isn't usually game-winning by itself
-The card is just bad on the draw. I personally seem to have pretty bad luck with winning die-rolls
-Maverick and other similar decks are playing a fair number of acceleration slots in the form of Noble Hierarch, GSZ -> Dryad Arbor, etc. Stifle at best might slow them down for a turn (maybe two), but its very unlikely to ever completely mana screw these sorts of decks. With Maverick positioned as one of the tier 1 DTB, why would you want to play 4 of a card that is nearly useless in the matchup?
-Making room for Spell Pierce and/or Spell Snare makes us essentially pre-boarded against a lot of combo decks (including the dreaded Burn matchup, which is nearly unwinnable for classic TA lists). [This also frees up SB space, including less incentive to waste space on the Counter/Top package and instead focus on other matchups]

Stifle is either utterly back-breaking, or complete garbage. It's tempting to play a card that can quite literally win the game for one mana, but these cases are few and far between -- and if a player is bad enough to keep that poor of a hand/play into your Stifle, you'd probably be beating them anyways, right? Further playesting for you is just going to show you the remarkable inconsistency of the card -- that, or you end up letting 'confirmation bias' get the best of you. The card that would be taking its slot, Spell Pierce, is generally always a welcome sight and more versatile in its applications.

- - -

To add to this, someone may counter with 'But look at tournament results! 2 of the RUG decks that made top 8 in Indianapolis played all 4! Plenty of RUG decks that top 8 in other tournaments play 3/4!'

The first point regarding GP Indy is somewhat ridiculous for a few reasons. First of all, Caleb Durward's list is a pretty radical departure from traditional RUG lists and plays off-the-wall stuff like maindeck Scavenging Ooze and Green Sun's Zenith. While I don't think these ideas are without merit, his list is pretty different from the norm. He's a great player though and could probably top 8 with any deck. I would want to know how often Stifle was critical towards winning a game and how often he ended up siding them out before deciding conclusively that it is a must-have for his deck.

Second, Kenny Castor seems to me to be a mediocre player who happened to get extremely lucky for the entire tournament. He -should- have won the finals against Martell, but instead decided to over-extend with his Mongeese and played right into Perish. Again, I would want to know how often Stifle was the key for him winning games and how often he ended up siding them out before saying definitively that the card was such a key element for his success.

Tournament results do not conclusively mean that any particular list is the 'best'. It simply means that that particular list was best for that particular day AND got the luckiest in that tournament (this includes things like personal mulligans, opponent mulligans, topdecking the right card at the right time, not getting paired against bad matchups, etc). Great players put themselves in a position to capitalize on luck, but without *some* amount of good luck they aren't going to win a tournament.

If I were playing only 18 lands in RUG, hell yeah I'd want to play 4 Stifle, because I don't want to get blown out by Wasteland. However, I think everyone should be playing at least 19 lands. 18 really seems to me to be a holdover from the days when the deck was running Werebear and a higher density of cantrips to compensate for the extremely low land count.

Regarding the all or nothing argument about Stifle: I think an interesting approach towards playing stifle would be to use the DAZE TACTIC. Basically, you have some blue decks running just one (maybe two) Daze as a way to randomly blow out an opponent not expecting it. Once that first Daze is played, the opponent begins to second guess themselves -- should I play around it? Are they holding one? Likewise, with just the first Stifle cast, you still enjoy the benefits of the random blow-out, but you aren't filling up your deck with a card that gets progressively less useful as the game goes on. The psychological advantage you then gain from having an untapped Island and a card in hand plays out for the remainder of the game, regardless of whether or not you have one in hand or are even playing multiples.

Compare that to Spell Pierce/Spell Snare, which are going to stop an opponent's play regardless -- you either have them or you don't, and both are critical towards stopping game-winning plays.

[CorpT]

Here is my argument -against- Stifle I posted in my UBr Team Grixis thread:

-Most decks are constructed with better mana bases these days, including playing a more reasonable number of lands
-The curve of Legacy in general is lower right now, so unless your opponent kept an incredibly loose hand, Stifling a fetch or two isn't usually game-winning by itself
-The card is just bad on the draw. I personally seem to have pretty bad luck with winning die-rolls
-Maverick and other similar decks are playing a fair number of acceleration slots in the form of Noble Hierarch, GSZ -> Dryad Arbor, etc. Stifle at best might slow them down for a turn (maybe two), but its very unlikely to ever completely mana screw these sorts of decks. With Maverick positioned as one of the tier 1 DTB, why would you want to play 4 of a card that is nearly useless in the matchup?
-Making room for Spell Pierce and/or Spell Snare makes us essentially pre-boarded against a lot of combo decks (including the dreaded Burn matchup, which is nearly unwinnable for classic TA lists). [This also frees up SB space, including less incentive to waste space on the Counter/Top package and instead focus on other matchups]

Stifle is either utterly back-breaking, or complete garbage. It's tempting to play a card that can quite literally win the game for one mana, but these cases are few and far between -- and if a player is bad enough to keep that poor of a hand/play into your Stifle, you'd probably be beating them anyways, right? Further playesting for you is just going to show you the remarkable inconsistency of the card -- that, or you end up letting 'confirmation bias' get the best of you. The card that would be taking its slot, Spell Pierce, is generally always a welcome sight and more versatile in its applications.


You realize there are other targets besides Fetches for Stifle, right?

[wcm8]

You realize there are other targets besides Fetches for Stifle, right?

Are you just being a dick, or do you seriously think I didn't consider that? I've played the card for years, as a 4 of, in a variety of decks. I am well aware of its utility. I also used to think it was a 4-of auto-include until I started doing more extensive testing. I don't think the card is useless, nor do I think it doesn't have a -place- in modern tempo decks. I do question its current power-level in the modern metagame though, and whether it needs to be a 4-of or even included at all.

Ask yourself which card you'd rather be holding in the following scenarios:

Stoneforge Mystic : Stifle, or Spell Snare?
Oblivion Ring: Stifle, or Spell Pierce?
Jace/Elspeth/Liliana/etc. : Stifle, or Spell Pierce?
Swords/Bolt your guy: Stifle, or Spell Pierce?
You lost the die roll: Stifle, or Spell Snare/Pierce?
Price of Progress? Stifle, or Spell Snare/Pierce?
Lingering Souls?
Thoughtseize? Hymn to Tourach?
Trinisphere? Chalice of the Void? Argothian Enchantress? etc. etc. etc.

My point here is that I'd look into maxing out the other counterspells before considering Stifle in a list.

[Pherion]

Are you just being a dick, or do you seriously think I didn't consider that? I've played the card for years, as a 4 of, in a variety of decks. I am well aware of its utility. I also used to think it was a 4-of auto-include until I started doing more extensive testing. I don't think the card is useless, nor do I think it doesn't have a -place- in modern tempo decks. I do question its current power-level in the modern metagame though, and whether it needs to be a 4-of or even included at all.

Ask yourself which card you'd rather be holding in the following scenarios:

Stoneforge Mystic : Stifle, or Spell Snare?
Oblivion Ring: Stifle, or Spell Pierce?
Jace/Elspeth/Liliana/etc. : Stifle, or Spell Pierce?
Swords/Bolt your guy: Stifle, or Spell Pierce?
You lost the die roll: Stifle, or Spell Snare/Pierce?
Price of Progress? Stifle, or Spell Snare/Pierce?
Lingering Souls?
Thoughtseize? Hymn to Tourach?
Trinisphere? Chalice at 2? Argothian Enchantress? etc. etc. etc.

My point here is that I'd look into maxing out the other counterspells before considering Stifle in a list.

How do you feel then about decks that run a full compliment of counterspells in addition to the stifles? For instance my deck runs 3 FOW, 3 Snare, 4 Daze, 4 Stifle, 3 Pierce. I am very much liking the large compliment of counterspells, and it's been good to me so far. I top 4ed last night at a local tournament, and did the same last week.

P.S. Stifle is actually better against Oblivion Ring because you can counter the comes into play trigger, where as with Pierce, they might have 2 mana avaliable.

[Koby]

O-ring vs Thresh seems like a dubious venture at best. If your opponent brings it in, you should congratulate them for misboarding. I mean, 3 mana removal spells to kill 1 or 2 mana creatures can't be the right way to approach the matchup.

[wcm8]

P.S. Stifle is actually better against Oblivion Ring because you can counter the comes into play trigger, where as with Pierce, they might have 2 mana avaliable.

In a deck that plays Tarmogoyf, wouldn't you like to give them +1? If we're talking about TURN 5+, and they can afford to pay for Spell Pierce, you are probably losing this game anyways.

I started my scenarios with things that are 'okay' Stifle targets, but then progressed to mentioned things where Stifle is useless.

As I said, I think Stifle is a fine card to consider running maindeck, but I would probably want to max out the other counterspells before running 4 Stifle. Hell, I'd probably rather run more Bolts before maxing out Stifle.

[Tombstalker]

How do you feel about the 0 or 4 question?
I think it applies to stifle much more than to the other counterspells... maybe daze as well.
Ive been in this camp for a long time but now im re-evaluating stifle. For me daze will never change.

wcm8- wont quote your post its too long but I will say that while you have good points and I agree on the manabase issue specifically, but I dont think that stifle should be removed from the main. Rather the count should be questioned, im considering 3 rather than 4 for testing. Sure its at its best in the early game but is still relevant later on.

True manabases are more resilient but wasteland is omnipresent and stifle deals with things that get through our counterwall from jitte triggers to engineered explosives/pernicious deed, storm, plainswalkers, emrakul annihilator 6 triggers and so on. We all know how broad its applications are.
I also feel that in the mirror the deck that runs stifle is favored. Its pretty much the only card for U that can (conditionally) fill the roles of counterspell, removal, destroy permanent and so on. Its still good enough to be in the 60 IMO.

Edit- I roll the full compliment like pherion so its not a matter of stifle vs. pierce

[wcm8]

Ive been in this camp for a long time but now im re-evaluating stifle. For me daze will never change.

wcm8- wont quote your post its too long but I will say that while you have good points and I agree on the manabase issue specifically, but I dont think that stifle should be removed from the main. Rather the count should be questioned, im considering 3 rather than 4 for testing. Sure its at its best in the early game but is still relevant later on.

True manabases are more resilient but wasteland is omnipresent and stifle deals with things that get through our counterwall from jitte triggers to engineered explosives/pernicious deed, storm, plainswalkers, emrakul annihilator 6 triggers and so on. We all know how broad its applications are.
I also feel that in the mirror the deck that runs stifle is favored. Its pretty much the only card for U that can (conditionally) fill the roles of counterspell, removal, destroy permanent and so on. Its still good enough to be in the 60 IMO.

Edit- I roll the full compliment like pherion so its not a matter of stifle vs. pierce

To address your points specifically:

Jitte counters: Fair enough, but we ideally don't let this ever land by a) countering the stoneforge, b) countering the jitte itself, or c) burning the creature when they go to equip it. Stifle is only a temporary measure. In post-board games we should be bringing in some Ancient Grudges to aid in our other methods of dealing with the card.

Wasteland: maindeck Life from the Loam and/or Sylvan Library are better ways of dealing with this card if it's a real concern. Also, playing a minimum of 19 lands helps a lot with not getting wasted out of a game. Keep fetches unbroken if you can help it, or use Daze to protect lands if you *really* need to (e.g. play a Brainstorm in response, Daze your own Brainstorm by returning the land being targeted with Wasteland, pay for the Daze to resolve your Brainstorm -- Daze thus functions as a defensive Stifle). If you're playing against a deck with its major strategy revolving around recurring Wasteland (e.g. Aggro Loam, BUG Planeswalker Control), a couple Stifles are really not going to help you win this matchup as it's already going to be an uphill struggle to begin with.

Explosives: Okay, at 1 it's annoying if you have Mongoose out. 0 is bad if you have flipped Delver out. 2 is bad if you have Tarmogoyf. Do you see the pattern? Our threats are spread out all over the CMC spectrum, so unless we over-extend this card isn't that big of a deal. In this regard, EE is just another removal spell that happens to hit our Geese, but like all removal spells, you either have the FoW/Spell Pierce/Daze, or you don't.

Deed: Spell Pierce. If you've made it to the point of the game where they can resolve this and still pay for Pierce, you've likely already lost.

Storm.dec: They tend to play cards like Silence/Orim's Chant, Thoughtseize/Duress, Xantid Swarm, and Ill Gotten Gains, so hoping to catch them at the last possible moment is highly unlikely unless your opponent is pretty dumb and goes all-in. Having more Spell Pierce/Snare to disrupt their earlier lines of play is a much safer method of winning these matchups.

Planeswalkers: Spell Pierce/FoW/Burn/Attacking with our creatures. You don't want these to resolve, ever.

Emrakul 6 Trigger: Seriously? Seriously. Seriously?? 99% of the time that this is happening, you've already lost the game. Don't you wish you had Spell Pierce for that Show and Tell?

I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I know the card can be awesome, believe me. But there are just so many instances and matchups where I'd much rather have other 1cmc blue cards in my hand.

I think with RUG moving more towards the AGGRO side rather than the Control side of being an Aggro-Control deck, we want spells that aren't used for purely defensive measures. We want to be the aggressor and make the opponent answer US, not the other way around.

[rancOr_]

I agree with ur statements, the only real thing holding me back is that u have to keep 1landers/short on land hands and can get blown out by waste. I've had it so many times where I play a dual like volc where they shouldn't waste u if u got mana open,but still do so(no respect for potential stifle). I understand the merits of pierce,I'm playing 2md right now,but I can't see myself cutting stifle from md. I mean sure it's less good vs some decks but it's an easy target to board out also... The argument about playing around stifle isn't a valid one as sometimes they have to try to fetch to stay in game.

[catmint]

I like wcm8 arguments against stifle.
Especially not beeing good agains DTB#1 maverick. I think it is important to evaluate cards for the most common situation and not the ones you remember like "I was outtapped when he cast deed, but had stifle to win the game... "

In fact I like pierce against Maverick more than Snare, since they need swords/punishing, GSZ, Equipment, sylvan, choke,...

On the other hand I don't see manabases beeing a lot more stable: Stilfe is good against the new 22 land esperblade build. Piercing lingering souls feels often very bad...

[Tombstalker]

wcm8- I am versed in the ways of daze-fu, trust me. The other examples were just off the top of my head and not all were really good examples but listing every application of either card would be very long indeed. Regarding the 19th land, im sure it works well but our low land count is part of the card advantage we enjoy and having the choice of +1 land or 1 stifle I think most people would choose the extra spell. I do.

Anyway Im not arguing about whether pierce is better than stifle and vice versa, Im saying that BOTH belong maindeck. If we look at the counter suite we run I think most would agree that the weakest counterspell is actually spell snare.
We want counter magic to be as 'hard' and broad as possible. Snare does one of those 2and fails at the other. Stifle otoh not only hard counters and is broadly applicable, but also gives answers to permanents that our countermagic missed, something no other counterspell can boast. For reference my current suite is:
4 daze
4 stifle
3 fow
3 pierce
3 snare

I believe this is very close to optimal and doesnt sacrifice any one type to squeeze the other since they are all situationally amazing, which is why I have a cantrip engine. Now if snare and FoW were currently so good as to warrant 4-of each all the time I might concede to losing stifle, but their not. In fact Ive found 3 of each to be optimal so far. I might be convinced that stifle falls into this same catagory though, and thats my current dilema.

Lastly I dont see how CT is really becoming more aggro than control unless your talking about the addition of delver? I almost always play the control role (maybe im wrong here though since Im still kinda new to this deck coming from TA).

Anyway good discussion so far.

[Tombstalker]

You know the main problem with stifle?! Its that motherfucking mother of runes she says "answer me now or lose!"



Just for fun ill give it a try with -stifle, +1 pierce and snare, +1 land +1 burn.

[Nordvoll]

You know the main problem with stifle?! Its that motherfucking mother of runes she says "answer me now or lose!"



Just for fun ill give it a try with -stifle, +1 pierce and snare, +1 land +1 burn.



Sulfur Elemental says hello :)

[Tombstalker]

Sulfur Elemental says hello :)
Haha yup, postboard at least. Its game 1 otd when shes the worst.

[wcm8]

Lastly I dont see how CT is really becoming more aggro than control unless your talking about the addition of delver? I almost always play the control role (maybe im wrong here though since Im still kinda new to this deck coming from TA).

Playing 12 creatures makes a pretty significant difference with how the deck plays out. The way I play the deck, I generally ship back a hand that does not have a creature (against an unknown opponent anyways, unless the rest of the hand has an acceptable/healthy mix of counterspells/bolts/lands/cantrips). Ideally, I want to drop a T1 Delver/Mongoose, followed up possibly with another creature on T2. I want my opponents to remain on the defensive the entire time. I use my counterspells aggressively -- for example, against Maverick, if they are casting GSZ for 1 and I'm holding a Spell Pierce and have a Delver out, I generally will let GSZ resolve and instead save Pierce for a more relevant spell. If I'm winning the damage race, I'll direct all burn spells at the opponent rather than pick off their creatures if I can safely ignore them. RUG has a very poor mid/late game in comparison to some Legacy decks, so I try to avoid letting games progress to that point. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Generally the only matchups where I'm not playing the beatdown role is in the mirror/close-to-mirror and against certain combo decks. I feel like Stifle is too defensive/reactive/situationally-good to fit into this gameplan.

[ImpinAintEasy]

In regards to people being worried about wasteland blowouts, this is exactly why running 19 lands with a single basic island is crucial. If you keep a one lander and it happens to be a fetch obv, then just go find your single Island and cantrip into the necessary duals you require. I have made comments in the past regarding the Stifle vs. Pierce argument and I agree with what wcm has said in that aspect. In all the matchups I've tested there was only one that I wished pierce was stifle and that was Nic Fit. If the meta shifts and Nic Fit starts becoming more of a DTB, then by all means maybe running a split is necessary. For right now, I think pierce is still the best way to go.

Also, regarding a resolved Mom. It isn't the end of the world because if you haven't got an active Delver going in this matchup, you probably lose anyways. You will be flying over mom and the only two spells you need to fear at that point is Scyrb Ranger and GSZ into ranger.

[Tombstalker]

Im gonna try going more beatdown then. TBH I think we really really need to discuss maindeck options to address maverick. Ive been wracking my brain all morning and I cant seem to come up with anything. Also I disagree that resolved mom isnt game. Not sure what variation of mav you guys play against (maybe all idk) but its pretty bad when im happy to see SFM! The latest version I play against that forgoes SFM is almost unwinnable game 1. Postboard I bring in 9 hate cards and I feel it MIGHT bring me to even ground. might. Here I completely agree that stifle is shit. Other matchups its good to great but im tired of maverick so im willing to try anything at this point.

Here are my problems, (besides GSZ into everything): moms, thalias, jittes, oozes, kotrs. The deck is just too threat dense to get ahead so our disruption doesnt work when the pressure never lets up. Sure my godhand can sometimes outrace them, barely, and only if im OTP. Postboard its alot better but I mean jeez this is legacy! WTF has WotC done to make green aggro this freakin good?

Edit- panic mode over beer kicking in..

[catmint]

Maverick is not aggro. -> they do not play goyf. its a utility/hatebear deck with the bonus that the best hatebear is huge.

Btw.: Thank god they cannot GSZ for Thalia, mom, jitte,... :)

Against maverick you cannot win without the early threat. But we do have a lot of means to defend delver and trade to make way for goyf/mongoose.

I play with 6-7 burn spells MD plus 4 submerge, 1-2 ancient grudge from the board. IMO Force of will has to stay... many say its not a good card against maverick, because of their redundancy. Playing a control deck this statement is true, but since we are the aggro deck and have to defend our threats aggressively versus their removal spells which are not that redundant, FoW, Pierce, Daze are good. Stifle/Snare, 1 Goyf (1-2 daze on the draw) are the weaker spots imo. I like mongoose because of shroud and all the monsters handling mongoose on the ground also handle Goyf.

You have to be careful saving your removal for something worth it imo. them having that extra mana can give them the tempo boost they might need to cast 2 spells,.... I am not saying you should "mindlessly" kill everything on sight, but imo it is often they correct thing to do.

[Tombstalker]

wcm8, Impinainteasy- thanks guys! Such simple advise but sometimes its easy to lose sight of it. I retract basically everything I said recently *booooof ugh*.
Your right we are the beatdown and mom doesnt usually matter, at least not early game.
So with this in mind I sleaved up spartan117's list with a few changes, the most notable difference from current lists and his is 2 F/I and 2 dismember. Ive been playing against maverick for the last few hours, all game 1, with far better success now.
I had to force myself to ignore those damn proliferating moms hierachs and arbors, even letting thalia resolve if I had sufficient mana + bolt/fire in order to save my business for stp, knights, oozes, jittes, library and elspeth. Worked wonders even though I still lost at least 50 percent.

The main thing I think I was doing wrong was trying to out tempo them early game, which just aint possible. Instead Ive been letting everything with ass = 1 resolve turns 1-3 to develop my manabase enough to drop threats and protect, leaving the resource denial game at home for the most part. Sound about right or no? I noticed this plan also makes kotr alot smaller so I can race more effectively instead of smash-> dead. Also saving counters for the cards I mentioned above makes goyfs bigger.

Catmint- your advise is sound and along the same track as what the others said. Dont know why I was missing the subtle difference in play looks like I gotta pay more attention to you guys now!

[I am the brainwasher]

Todays thought: Volcanic Spray

I am not sold on the card, but I can see it on the same level as Rough/Tumble.
Some upsides, some downsides, but it's definetly worth testing.

[Tombstalker]

Looks decent, even good against maverick, but missing flyers probably relegates it to SB at best. Too bad we dont have access to more quality flashback cards because then maybe we could consider a couple lootings or careful studys in the ponder slot.

[Einherjer]

Even though I am def. a fan of new cards and innovations...sometimes theres a point reached where it is enough... And this card is just weak, honestly. Lets compare it with Rough. Same cc but Rough kills a lot of relevant stuff aswell. Oh yes, this one got flashback... if we give the enemey (mainley Maverick ) enough time to recover - in order to make the flashback useful - we might be losing the game in any way...

So I wanted to present you my list, which I think is quite the optimum..

3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island

2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn

4 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Lìghtning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt

//Side
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Rough
4 Submerge

It turns out to be superior list to a lot of MUs. The only one I am not comfortable with is the Combo + GY -MU but this is mainley due to the fact, that I did not test these MUs with Canadian yet.

Try it out. Greetings

[spartan117]

...
So with this in mind I sleaved up spartan117's list with a few changes, the most notable difference from current lists and his is 2 F/I and 2 dismember. Ive been playing against maverick for the last few hours, all game 1, with far better success now.
...

Hope you like it :wink:

Anyway, with the following list (4 bolt, 2 forked bolt, 2 fire/ice, 3 goyfs, 3 snares) I went 7-0 maindeck against GW maverick (with thalia) and 5-2 post-side. Maybe it's because of my luck, but I don't think this kind of results against maverick are solely based on randomness and good draws. I still keep winning against GW, and even today I faced another one in tournament and went 2-0 without any difficulties. If you manage to manascrew them, you always win, and even if you don't, you can still race or out-tempo them. Submerge plays a big role in doing so. Also: here in Europe we like to play a couple Mind Harness to steal their Knights and Oozes. They're very effective in doing their job, try 'em out, you won't regret doing so.

Yesterday I did a testing session against esperblade: 18 MD games, alternating the starting player. I went 12-6: this means we have to capitalize our advantages in Game1, because after boarding we lose something in our winning percentage (perish, EE, pierce).

Now I'm playing this list:

4 nimble mongoose
4 delver of secrets
3 tarmogoyf
4 force of will
4 daze
4 stifle
3 spell snare
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 lightning bolt
2 fire/ice
2 forked bolt (used to be dismembers)

18 lands (6 fetch, 4-4 duals, 4 waste)

3 spell pierce
1 reb
1 pyroblast
3 submerge
2 mind harness
2 grafdigger's cage
1 surgical extraction
2 sulfuric vortex


There's little to no need of something like krosan grip/ancient grudge because you aren't siding them in against maverick and rarely vs stoneblade (where sulfuric vortex really shines, same vs control decks in general).

My actual side plans are:

VS GW maverick

OTP=OTD

-2 force -2 daze -1 ponder -1spell snare -1 tarmogoyf -1 stifle
+3 submerge +2 mind harness +3 spell pierce

VS GWr Maverick

OTP=OTD

-2 force -2 daze -4 delver of secrets
+3 submerge +2 mind harness +3 spell pierce

Vs UW stoneblade

OTP

-2 force of will -3 goyf -2 forked bolt
+3 spell pierce +2 reb/pyroblast +2 sulfuric vortex

OTD

-2 daze -3 goyf -2 forked bolt
+3 spell pierce +2 reb/pyroblast +2 sulfuric vortex



I'd like to try -2 fire/ice +2 dismember +1 fetch -1 tropical island and find some space for a couple sulfur elementals in the board. Sulfuric vortex is really disappointing me, I never find the opportunity to side it in... I'll probably end up cutting it.

However, try out this configuration, I like it a lot and it does really well what it's supposed to do. (also: more reach is good)

If you have any question, feel free to send me a PM :wink:

[justMAD]

Today i went 6-1, finishing first in a 66 man tournament.

I played the following:

2 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanis Island
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
1 Thought Scour
1 Predict


Sideboard:
4 Submerge
3 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Rough//Tumble
1 Ancient Grudge

So, what's to say:

Stifle - I prefer Stifle maindeck over Spell Pierce and really enjoyed to stifle fetchlands and some triggers all day long.

Green Sun's Zenith - Yep, one Zenith or better to say, Mongoose number 5 and sometimes Scavenging Ooze. Really liked it.

Scavenging Ooze - Got to love it. Able to win random games and jumped off a Zenith. Only 3 green sources were never a problem.

Tarmogoyf - Totally underperforming today. Never fetched him with a Zenith.

Forked Bolt - Like the potential to trade 2 for 1 and the manacost, dislike the sorcery speed though. Actually it never happened in the tournament, aimed for the face to seal the deal 3 times. Need more comparison to Fire//Ice, which I played in this slot before.

Thought Scour - Grow little Mongoose, grow. Also milled an opponent one time, after he used Enlightened Tutor. Also improved some draws after Brainstorm/Ponder.

Predict - See Thought Scour. Maybe i'll try a second Thought Scour in this slot.

Rough//Tumble - After a little scouting and seing 3 Goblindecks and 2 Elves! I switched 2 Sulfur Elemental to Rough//Tumble. Only against the Lingering Souls//Deadguy Deck I wanted the Elemental. Never faced another deck where I needed any of the cards though.

Decks I faced this day:

Mono-B Reanimator 2-1 win
Deadguy Ale with Lingering Souls 2-1 win
Zoo with Punishing Fire 2-1 win
ANT 2-1 win
Aggroloam 1-2 loss
Burn 2-0 win
UB Reanimator 2-0 win

Strange I didn't face Maverick... :wink:

Perhaps I'll write down what I boarded, but for now it's time for some beer. :tongue:

[Tombstalker]

Thunderous Wrath - 4RR, Instant, Thunderous Wrath deals 5 damage to target creature or player. Miracle R (You may cast this card for its Miracle cost when you draw it if it's the first card you drew this turn)
Seeing this spoiled made me lolz with glee! If it doesnt get brainstorm banned our deck just got a MAJOR boost.

[Jonathan Alexander]

How could they possibly print such a card? That's just way too good with cantrips.

[cheerios]

I think Thunderous Wrath fits more with UR delver than thresh, I'm not sure if I'm cutting Lightning Bolt for it. I'm not cutting forked bolts any minute.

[Tombstalker]

Bolt wont ever be cut but the other flex spots could very easily become wraths. Flipping delver off a 5 damage bolt is insane, plus it clears alot of midsized creatures that some people use dismember to answer currently. It looks like the real deal.

[jace247]

does this deck really need four stifles?

[Dark Ritual]

Stifle is one of those cards that you generally want 4 or 0 of. Some people have been cutting stifle for pierce, as pierce can counter more relevant things in the mirror acting as a hard counter for U in counterwars is huge maindeck.

On thunderous wrath, the card definitely looks interesting. However, is it worth it? One in the opener is dead without a brainstorm. We can very rarely hardcast the card, as wasteland is prevalent and wasteland is a card. I'm not sold on it, I'd love to be proven wrong but only testing will tell whether this card is good enough in this deck.

Cutting lightning bolt is basically tantamount to cutting force of will completely from this deck. Don't ever do it, you won't like what you see afterwards when you lose infinite games due to not having lightning bolt in your MD.

[Goddik]

On the whole stifle debate, don't underestimate its ability to screw over peoples brainstorms by denying them the shuffle effect. In a resource denial situation that play can be crucial. It also synergizes very strongly with pierce so running both is not out of the question. I do feel like it could easily be a 3 off though as there are matchups where i never ever want to see 2 of them.

[Purgatory]

Played in a 48-man tournament yesterday, and finished 4-2, not too impressive, but not bad considering I'm not playing too much Magic these days. Finished 10th on breakers, two people at 4-2 in the T8 :(


2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
2 Forked Bolt


SB:
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge
3 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nature's Claim
1 Ancient Grudge


My matches:

U/R Delver (2-0). Won two tight games where he had lethal on the stack both of the times he died.

Cephalid Breakfast (1-2). I won game one and he transformed his deck into a weird Fish deck, I lost game two and three to Sword of Body and Mind, the third with Ancient Grudge in the graveyard. I was stuck on a single Tropical and had four burnspells and nothing else on hand. That one was my fault, though.

Sneak-Show (1-2). I won game one and then he topdecked his combo piece the last turn of the game with me having lethal on the board both times. It sucks, but it happens in this game.

Affinity (2-1). Lost game one to a crazy draw, won games two and three easily with plenty of removal for all of his creatures and counterspells for Etched Champion.

Belcher (2-1). Piloted by none other than hall of famer Olle Råde, so I was surprised to see him at 2-2. We played and discussed the variance in Magic and whether or not it takes away too much skill. In game one, he played a Charbelcher on turn one, and I didn't have the force, but I kept him off three mana for the activation, and when he did finally draw the Spirit Guide, I had Stifle for the activation. I lost game two to 10 goblins on turn one, and then I won game three on a mull to five; Delver, Daze, FoW, Bolt, Volcanic. Sweet.

Mirror (2-0). I drew a lot better than him and kept him on 0 lands for game one, he had to mulligan in game two and I had plenty of burn for his dudes.


Overall, I'm happy with most of the deck, but I really missed the fourth Ponder. I'm thinking about cutting a Tarmogoyf for it, or maybe even a Thought Scour to help Nimble Mongoose. Two mana is just so much when you want to keep mana open to Stifle and Spell Snare/Pierce, and Goyf just gets StP'd a lot :P Threat density was never an issue, in fact I often had more than enough creatures for the games I played, and sometimes wound up with dead draws because of it.

[Mark Sun]

I would always play the fourth Ponder. I've thought about cutting it in the past, but the information you gain from it (while increasing deck velocity) is invaluable.

[Pherion]

I'm very interested to see how Thounderous Wrath play's out. I can very much see it being a one of in a thresh deck. What I'm really curious about is if we can actually respond to the Maracle trigger before playing the spell. For instance, can we crack a fetch to get the Volcanic Island, or do we have to have the mana in play when we draw the card. If it doesn't use the stack, then it's going to be a bit more dificult. It might also make our brainstorms a bit less use full as we're more likely to cast them at the end of our opponents turn. While a main phase brainstorm can still put the Wrath back on top of the deck, it's not quite as proactive in this situation as doing it EoT, and getting the delver flip + 5 damage.

[wcm8]

If there are enough Miracle cards worth abusing, Noxious Revival could be a way to push them even further over the top along with Bstorm, Ponder, Mirri's Guile/Sylvan Library and SDT.

[Purgatory]

I would always play the fourth Ponder. I've thought about cutting it in the past, but the information you gain from it (while increasing deck velocity) is invaluable.

Yeah, my reasoning behind it was that with the higher threat-density, I didn't need to cantrip my way into threats as much as before. Lesson learned, I suppose.

I mulliganed like crazy in the tournament as well, but thankfully most of them were easy decisions, no-landers etc.

[Awaclus]

If there are enough Miracle cards worth abusing, Noxious Revival could be a way to push them even further over the top along with Bstorm, Ponder, Mirri's Guile/Sylvan Library and SDT.
I believe the Time Walk is probably worth abusing.

[Purgatory]

I believe the Time Walk is probably worth abusing.

It is difficult to say, at least before testing it. The thing is that two mana is a lot to us, so the Time Walk is an extra card and an extra attack step for 1U, which is great, but it probably has to be synced with other cards, like Brainstorm or Ponder to be useful, and it it's in the opener, it'll probably only be pitched to FoW.

It's an interesting mechanic, no doubt, I'm just hesitant to say that it is worth including in the deck.

[wcm8]

I think aggro control is one of the best archetypes to gain value out of Time Walk.

Edit : the situational nature of the card makes me think that *if* this deck is going to play it, it would only be as a singleton for the occasional mid-game swing. But in those cases, it's probably just win-more. So I think it's inclusion here is probably dubious. This deck cant afford having a dead draw early on, and as far as setting up the card goes, Predict is often just as good without being dead on its own.

[Awaclus]

It is difficult to say, at least before testing it. The thing is that two mana is a lot to us, so the Time Walk is an extra card and an extra attack step for 1U, which is great, but it probably has to be synced with other cards, like Brainstorm or Ponder to be useful, and it it's in the opener, it'll probably only be pitched to FoW.

It's an interesting mechanic, no doubt, I'm just hesitant to say that it is worth including in the deck.
Two mana is a lot of mana, but on the other hand, an extra turn is especially valuable to a tempo deck. The reason why I said "probably" is because I'm not sure if 4 Ponders and 4 Brainstorms are enough for it to work like it's supposed to work and if 4 Brainstorms and 4 FoWs are enough for making it not completely useless even when it's drawn to an opening hand. I think 1-2 copies, probably 1, would be enough though.

[BKclassic]

Hey folks. In my opinion, the best way to build RUG Tempo right now is something like this:

Lands: 19
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island

Creatures: 10
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique

Spells: 31
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Sylvan Library
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Forked Bolt
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

SB: 15
2 Spell Pierce
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Submerge
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Sulfur Elemental

-No Nimble Mongoose. Mongoose just isn't very good against Maverick and makes us susceptible to people's graveyard hate. Not having Mongoose definitely hurts against Esper and BUG control decks, but Sulfur Elemental is good against Esper and isn't useless against BUG since it has Split Second as well as Flash. Maverick is simply a greater threat than BUG right now, so I think this is the right call.

-4 Tarmogoyf is an obvious choice when you aren't running Nimble Mongoose. Goyf is a fast clock, is resistant to graveyard hate and is better than Mongoose against Maverick.

-I am running 2 Vendilion Cliques right now, mainly to keep the threat density high without Mongoose. 2 may be too many in a deck with 19 lands, but running a basic Island and Sylvan Library alleviate this problem to some extent by helping make sure you can get to three mana. It might correct to cut the Cliques and Sylvan Library for 3 Mongeese, but Sylvan Library is insane and Vendilion Clique is another three power flyer. Trygon Predator also seems like it could be a serviceable option for this slot as well, it would be better than Clique against Goblins since it has a big butt and could destroy Aether Vial game 1. Besides obviously destroying equipment, having an answer to Choke and more game against Enchantress seems good.

-Spell Snare is a must right now, IMO. Maverick has tons of 2 drops we really want to counter like Thalia, Scavenging Ooze and Jitte. Spell Snare is the best answer we have for Thalia. For a while, it seemed like no one was running 2 drops, but it seems that the times have changed.

-2 Sylvan Library. Sylvan Library is absolutely amazing and you all should be running at least 1. The card is like Sulfuric Vortex except it costs one less and is amazing against almost everything. It doesn't directly deal damage, but it does draw you into more threats and helps enable Force of Will. Channeling life into cards is great against Maverick and control and you can generally afford to go down to about 5 life. The extra cards drawn will keep your opponents back against the wall. Running 2 Sylvan Library is a big part of what makes cutting Mongoose possible, as it is a threat generator.

EDIT- I am not sure that cutting the mongoose is necessarily the right call. I do think that 4 Tarmogoyf and at least 1 Sylvan Library are good right now.

[Tombstalker]

BKclassic- unusual choices since I think most of us are considering ways to drop goyf, even running gsz as more geese. I like clique but even in TA with 20 lands it was often hard to cast. That being said if your sold on clique id drop goyf for mongoose.
I also ran library in TA and I loved it, but since dropping it from CT I've had better success and haven't missed it yet honestly.

On the subject of TM I don't think this card is good for us although I want it to be. Costing 2 meaning cast on t3 at the earliest, plus being conditional isn't that good and our curve tops out at 2 already. We play mostly reactive on opponents turn so our best plays with it would likely be wasteland, or drop a beater or swing for 3. Thunderous wrath seems better for us. Speaking of which I got some games in with it as proxy, it ranged from ok to amazing. Probably main deck worthy. One game I flipped delver off it taking my maverick opponent to 11 then top decked another and won with a F/I (2 fetches). Another game though I probably lost because I sent it to the face instead of holding it like other removal.

[JJ-JKidd]

I think spells that do not do something when it is cast (Sylvan) is counterproductive to the strategy of tempo. Just my 2 cents

[Einherjer]

Cutting creatures in Canadian is totally okay.

BUT NOT THE MONGEESE! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

Cut a Goyf and many Pros will say its good.
Cut 2 Goyfs and it still might be good.

But never never cut any of the 1 drops. They are so much synergetic with out gameplan. Stifle T1, T2 1drop + 1 Mana-Open is Tempos wet dream.

I would cut Goyfs because they are very clunkey, totally tapping out for a wannabe-monster isnt what I want to do on T3. Still im playing with the 12 creature-setup and it's been fine.

Sylvan Lib? What for?

And honestly...who had the idea of this single basic Island? It's good when we play a Counterbalance-Sideboard but it's totally useless in a traditional Tempo-Build. Yes, great to have an opening Hand with Island, Waste and 5 other good cards ( most likely 3 blue 1 red 1 green ). So well..cut it.

Greetings

EDIT: TM is bullshit in Thresh.

[Tombstalker]

So I'm testing miracle walk and thunderous wrath as 2 each. Contrary to my earlier statement I know but I think walk may be good for us. If this set gives us another quality one drop to finally replace goyf I think walk could be even better. A little too early to post any results though.

[Rekk]

Hello, I'm a newer player to the rug archtype (usually a stoneblade player) and i was wondering if their were any good articles to read so that I may prepare for Scg Providence. I of course plan on going through the source and read the posts. But if their was any additional sources of knowledge i would greatly appreciate it.

(theory crafting on how to board would be great) not a boarding guide more so what is important in the main matchups, I'd still like to learn the deck, thus learn how to board with it.

[rancOr_]

1off library is SO good in TT. U should really test that out. Dont think the miracle stuff is worth any slots.

[Vedalken]

I might sound dumb. hell It might be ridiculous.
We have no real conterspell beside force of will.

I played so many game where my opponent where just playing around daze. where they never taped out for my spell pierce to be effective.

-Can we plz redefine *tempo* In a format where everything cost 3 at max?

I might sound ridiculous. But I think we have to bring back the old conterspell.

The one that cannot be played around. the conter spell that actually stops that freaking knight to hit the table.
The one that conters that damn sword to plow share on our goyf for 1.

(I would run the extra island with it)

At the last tourney, stifle sucked f****** balls. wcm8 actually explained all the reason it didn't do it for me and it is such a bad top deck imo.

I just feel like every conterspell we have in this deck can be thrown to garbage because good player will play around them.
Now you can say that this is what you actually want in a tempo deck. To buy time while they play around hand. But when they finally do land the killing blow the spell that cost you the game and that you cant do anything about. well you lose.

Now let the flaming begins.
Tell me your opinion on why would conterspell be bad right now especially vs maverick or bant or esper or any combo deck. I only see it being weak in the match up -.-.

-vedalken

ps- I dont like where this deck is going.
I dont feel like we are going toward being the aggressor as a tempo deck except of the fact that we have those 1 cc drop.

[ImpinAintEasy]

Obviously I haven't tested either miracle card yet, but here are my thoughts on them. I can definitely see the red miracle making an impact in the deck, how big will be determined. Truth is, we really want to be quick and this card gives us another chance of progressing that plan. On the other hand, I really don't see the blue miracle being an effective card for our game plan. Think of it this way, the blue miracle gives us another turn to effectively progress our aggro plan and imo we already have a superior card for that strategy in Snapcaster Mage and lately that card isn't even making the maindeck. Snappy is a better answer than the timewalk. It is more versatile, can fetch up that bolt to push through those last few points of damage. It can recast that crucial stifle or spell pierce or heck you get the point. If our decks have gotten away from playing Snappy, then I see no point really in playing a timewalk spell. Also, we typically want to lay down a threat on Turn 1 and protect it, how does a timewalk spell taking up mana during the draw step protect that gameplan.

Just my 2 cents. If I'm wrong, I'll eat my words with a side order of fries!

[menace13]

I might sound dumb. hell It might be ridiculous.
We have no real conterspell beside force of will.

I played so many game where my opponent where just playing around daze. where they never taped out for my spell pierce to be effective.

-Can we plz redefine *tempo* In a format where everything cost 3 at max?

I might sound ridiculous. But I think we have to bring back the old conterspell.

The one that cannot be played around. the conter spell that actually stops that freaking knight to hit the table.
The one that conters that damn sword to plow share on our goyf for 1.

(I would run the extra island with it)

At the last tourney, stifle sucked f****** balls. wcm8 actually explained all the reason it didn't do it for me and it is such a bad top deck imo.

I just feel like every conterspell we have in this deck can be thrown to garbage because good player will play around them.
Now you can say that this is what you actually want in a tempo deck. To buy time while they play around hand. But when they finally do land the killing blow the spell that cost you the game and that you cant do anything about. well you lose.

Now let the flaming begins.
Tell me your opinion on why would conterspell be bad right now especially vs maverick or bant or esper or any combo deck. I only see it being weak in the match up -.-.

-vedalken

ps- I dont like where this deck is going.
I dont feel like we are going toward being the aggressor as a tempo deck except of the fact that we have those 1 cc drop.

Mana Leak would be better than Counterspell, it hits everything and can be cast off a Dual and a Wasteland.

[Dzra]

One problem is that the deck doesn't like to hit more than 3 lands (and would prefer one of the three to be a Wasteland), so what exactly is the deck doing if it has to keep up UU to counter their spells? Maybe you should be mulling more aggressively. If you don't have either a 1drop creature or a Stifle, there's a good chance you should be mulling.

The whole point of the deck is to drop a guy and then finish the game before they have a chance to do anything. Even if they don't get hit by them, if they have to play around Daze, Stifle, and Wasteland then you're ahead. The exception is if you haven't dropped a dude in the first two turns, then you are even or possibly behind because you're correct, Stifle and Daze get really bad as the game goes on.

You want to play a guy t1 or t2, depending on if you have Daze or Stifle and if you're on the play or draw. Then you want to stall them. If they are playing a KotR on t3 then you're doing it wrong and you will lose. If they are playing a KotR on t4 or t5 (due to Stifle, Wasteland, and Daze), but you don't have board presence then you are just as behind as they are and will probably lose. FoW is ideally your closer. It's t5 and you just have to punch through one more hit before your burn is live. FoW their scary dude and proceed to wrap up over the next couple turns, or put them in a place where a topdecked burn will kill them. If you have to use FoW before then, then you are in a bad position.

And finally, if your style of play is more akin to "run them out of cards via hard counters and removal, then kill them at your leisure" then you probably shouldn't be playing RUG. RUG's plan is "play a threat, stall them, and kill them before they can use the cards in their hand."

[JJ-JKidd]

I might sound dumb. hell It might be ridiculous.
We have no real conterspell beside force of will.

I played so many game where my opponent where just playing around daze. where they never taped out for my spell pierce to be effective.

-Can we plz redefine *tempo* In a format where everything cost 3 at max?

I might sound ridiculous. But I think we have to bring back the old conterspell.

The one that cannot be played around. the conter spell that actually stops that freaking knight to hit the table.
The one that conters that damn sword to plow share on our goyf for 1.

(I would run the extra island with it)

At the last tourney, stifle sucked f****** balls. wcm8 actually explained all the reason it didn't do it for me and it is such a bad top deck imo.

I just feel like every conterspell we have in this deck can be thrown to garbage because good player will play around them.
Now you can say that this is what you actually want in a tempo deck. To buy time while they play around hand. But when they finally do land the killing blow the spell that cost you the game and that you cant do anything about. well you lose.

Now let the flaming begins.
Tell me your opinion on why would conterspell be bad right now especially vs maverick or bant or esper or any combo deck. I only see it being weak in the match up -.-.

-vedalken

ps- I dont like where this deck is going.
I dont feel like we are going toward being the aggressor as a tempo deck except of the fact that we have those 1 cc drop.

Play another deck with real counterspells like UW or something. Theres no reason why the archetype had 5 representation in the last SCG Finals.

This deck is far from perfect, no deck is perfect for that matter. Pretty sure that all the Legacy threads right now are also having these kinds of discussions on how to beat this and that.

Thats the beauty of Legacy, its a rock-paper-scissors kind of thing. If you consistently want to beat Maverick, run something unfair which would trample Maverick.

[Dzra]

If you consistently want to beat Maverick, run something unfair which would trample Maverick.

Sulfur Elemental and Submerge solve a lot of the problems with Maverick. Thunderous Wrath will also be great in that MU as it's a great answer to a resolved KotR/Ooze that doubles as a punch in the face. Forked Bolt is also pretty unfair against creature decks.

[illusivek]

I don't mean the change the conversation topic, but I started thinking about gitaxian Probe. Gitaxian probe is stronger the more lines of play a deck has, and we have a lot. It solves the turn 1 stifle or threat gamble,
and the tarmogoyf tap out or almost tap out issue. Because we can swap roles so easily, I feel like Gitaxian probe deserves some discussion; I think it adds consistency due to not having to gamble in those situations. It pitches to force at the worst, and let's you know how to plan your attack in the early game. I think the argument against it that there are better options is poor (deck space argument) because it cantrips into Something else for 0. 4 is almost certainly too many, but 2-3 is possible. What do you guys think ?

[catmint]

Obviously I haven't tested either miracle card yet, but here are my thoughts on them. I can definitely see the red miracle making an impact in the deck, how big will be determined. Truth is, we really want to be quick and this card gives us another chance of progressing that plan. On the other hand, I really don't see the blue miracle being an effective card for our game plan. Think of it this way, the blue miracle gives us another turn to effectively progress our aggro plan and imo we already have a superior card for that strategy in Snapcaster Mage and lately that card isn't even making the maindeck. Snappy is a better answer than the timewalk. It is more versatile, can fetch up that bolt to push through those last few points of damage. It can recast that crucial stifle or spell pierce or heck you get the point. If our decks have gotten away from playing Snappy, then I see no point really in playing a timewalk spell. Also, we typically want to lay down a threat on Turn 1 and protect it, how does a timewalk spell taking up mana during the draw step protect that gameplan.

Just my 2 cents. If I'm wrong, I'll eat my words with a side order of fries!

Since we often wish NOT to have the 3rd land-drop the extra turn won't do a lot early. Later on if you are able to reach the red zone the timewalk (extra attack phase) is just awesome. Just the extra attack phase would be awesome but it is in addition a cantrip that untaps the lands you tapped to cast the spell... Trust me: You want 2-3 in every tempo deck. Snapcaster was never good in RUG but timewalk will be!

[Einherjer]

I still think TM is no card for Canadian Threshold.

Let's discuss the sideboard, mine looks like:

2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surigcal Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Rough // Tumble
4 Submerge

I consider one of the Rough // Tumble and one of the REB as the flex. slots in this. Still I tend to have tough MUs versus certain combos - Reanimator + HighTide. That is why im tempted to play Counterbalance again to dominate these MUs. But do you think its because of this sideboard or more because I need to practise these MUs more intensely? What are your sideboards lookingl ike?

[catmint]

Philipp so far your reasoning is TM is bullshit because ... you don't think it's good? :tongue:

[Hof]

I don't mean the change the conversation topic, but I started thinking about gitaxian Probe. Gitaxian probe is stronger the more lines of play a deck has, and we have a lot. It solves the turn 1 stifle or threat gamble,
and the tarmogoyf tap out or almost tap out issue. Because we can swap roles so easily, I feel like Gitaxian probe deserves some discussion; I think it adds consistency due to not having to gamble in those situations. It pitches to force at the worst, and let's you know how to plan your attack in the early game. I think the argument against it that there are better options is poor (deck space argument) because it cantrips into Something else for 0. 4 is almost certainly too many, but 2-3 is possible. What do you guys think ?
I have been giving Probe a lot of thought lately, and I agree. Other points: Is a sorcery (good for goyf) and cycles for 0 (good for mongoose). I don't play a full set of Stifle myself, so I rarely experience dilemmas in the opening game, but I can think of many other reasons why knowing your opponents hand can be key to winning the opening game, including:
-Knowing about enemy fetch, basics land, wastelands, daze, stifle, spell snare, fow, pierce, threat count, removal count. All of this can heavily influence our own line of play in the first few critical turns.

[Einherjer]

Philipp so far your reasoning is TM is bullshit because ... you don't think it's good? :tongue:
I don't think its good. Why?

Because:
1) Canadian is not a deck where dead handcards do not hurt.
2) Canadian doesn't have to reach 2 Mana to cast TM
3) Canadian isn't doing anything good with this turn besides one attack more
4) Getting a TM countered results in such a large tempoloss that it would hurt the deck like hell
5) We do not want to know what's on top of our library all the time - we use cantrips to find whatever we need
6) I dont like this card in tempo

Greetings

[catmint]

I don't think its good. Why?

Because:
1) Canadian is not a deck where dead handcards do not hurt.
2) Canadian doesn't have to reach 2 Mana to cast TM
3) Canadian isn't doing anything good with this turn besides one attack more
4) Getting a TM countered results in such a large tempoloss that it would hurt the deck like hell
5) We do not want to know what's on top of our library all the time - we use cantrips to find whatever we need
6) I dont like this card in tempo

Greetings

I don't think it will be "the nuts" or at it's best in tempo, but still it will be good. concerning your arguments:
1) True - Cannot be a 4of IMO
2) Having 2 lands in play -> threat + open mana is a nice thing to have. Do not agree
3) you would not play a card "get an additional attack phase, draw a card, untap 2 lands, play an addtional land"?! How often is it so close against maverick/stoneblade that they stabalize
4)how is the tempo loss bigger than getting a tarmogoyf countered? Only spell snare does not work here..
5) you are right: we use 8 cantrips to find what we need ... so we do not have to go the extra mile to fit in a couple of timewalks.


Btw: Like the arguments for Gitaxian Probe. Also thought scour has more value now that the opponents top cards are more scary. It is really tough to make cuts though.

[ImpinAintEasy]

Since we often wish NOT to have the 3rd land-drop the extra turn won't do a lot early. Later on if you are able to reach the red zone the timewalk (extra attack phase) is just awesome. Just the extra attack phase would be awesome but it is in addition a cantrip that untaps the lands you tapped to cast the spell... Trust me: You want 2-3 in every tempo deck. Snapcaster was never good in RUG but timewalk will be!

So what you are saying is having one early isn't good, but seeing one in the late game would be great? We are a tempo deck right? We typically don't want to be in the late game right? Our worse matchup in Maverick will improve with the Timewalk right?

I'd prefer not to trust you. This card doesn't belong in a tempo deck. The red miracle should fit in here first because we are trying to inflict as much damage as possible as quickly as possible. Having another attack step against Maverick means nothing without delver, but having access to a 5 damage spell will be far more relevant in that matchup.

At best I could see the blue miracle as a 1 of, but never a 2-3 of. And I'd still rather have a singleton Snappy that in the long run is more versatile.

[Einherjer]

I don't think it will be "the nuts" or at it's best in tempo, but still it will be good. concerning your arguments:
1) True - Cannot be a 4of IMO
2) Having 2 lands in play -> threat + open mana is a nice thing to have. Do not agree
3) you would not play a card "get an additional attack phase, draw a card, untap 2 lands, play an addtional land"?! How often is it so close against maverick/stoneblade that they stabalize
4)how is the tempo loss bigger than getting a tarmogoyf countered? Only spell snare does not work here..
5) you are right: we use 8 cantrips to find what we need ... so we do not have to go the extra mile to fit in a couple of timewalks.


Btw: Like the arguments for Gitaxian Probe. Also thought scour has more value now that the opponents top cards are more scary. It is really tough to make cuts though.

1) Fine we agree
2) I didn't put it in the right way, languagewise. I mean that our deck stumbles sometimes to reach the 2-land-mark
3) If it so close - play more burnspells as they are more relyable when it comes to finishing down opponents
4) Goyf is bad creature. The worst in this deck. I would exchange it if we had an equivalent new creature ( CC1 hopefuly) So yeah, I dont see a problem with my statement. Getting a CC2 Spell countered really hurts this deck
5) Hmm...I do play 8 Cantrips, and these 8 do not enable me to find what I seek at every time, mostly though. But, we need careful consideration and planning for TimeWalk 2.0 to work, and we cant ensure this with 8 Cantrips. Jace or SDT would be needed here.

Greetings

[catmint]

It remains to be seen.:wink: your arguments against timewalk do have some merit. If you are not coming to the red zone against maverick you probably won't win. If you do attack to the red zone the question is if you can win before they stabalize. In that situation an additional attack phase has a lot more value than a burn spell because it is "free" (card and mana neutral) and has the potential to be much more than 3 damage if you attack for more and/or the extra card is a threat/burn spell/wasteland,...

However the red miracle spell is unplayable for me. you need the damage to creature/dome at a very specific time and not when you topdeck it. Can never replace lightning bolt.

[ImpinAintEasy]

It remains to be seen.:wink: your arguments against timewalk do have some merit. If you are not coming to the red zone against maverick you probably won't win. If you do attack to the red zone the question is if you can win before they stabalize. In that situation an additional attack phase has a lot more value than a burn spell because it is "free" (card and mana neutral) and has the potential to be much more than 3 damage if you attack for more and/or the extra card is a threat/burn spell/wasteland,...

However the red miracle spell is unplayable for me. you need the damage to creature/dome at a very specific time and not when you topdeck it. Can never replace lightning bolt.

Agreed, I never mentioned replacing Lightning Bolt, that would be silly.

[I am the brainwasher]

I don't think neither Wrath nor Temp. are candidates for Threshold for all sort of different reasons that were (gladly) mentioned here in former posts.
Deciding at which time you throw Burn, tempo-out the opponent or do whatever this decks does best is shitty when it is locked to the drawstep, period.
Temp. is a damn busted card in control-decks, which are going to be a tougher MU.
Outside of having the chance to Spell Pierce it early on, good players will find the given time to make this a must-counter that draws out a REB or Force which can be very painful in front of other control elements or must-counters.
Stoneblade benefits propably the most from it and straight Uw lists with Wrath of God and a stable manabase could be pretty annoying.
Outside of considering going back to more REB/PB, time will tell what is to do here. A huge upside might be that people start to overplay blue decks in general in the near future which should make this deck even more viable.

[cheerios]

Have you guys considered replacing nimble mongoose with vexing devil in thresh? What are your thoughts on this card?

[JeroenC]

Do you want to play Lava Spike? Do you want to play Lava Spike +1 damage?

If the answer to these questions is yes, go play UR.

If the answer to these questions is no, well, you know what the Devil is good for.

[wcm8]

Have you guys considered replacing nimble mongoose with vexing devil in thresh? What are your thoughts on this card?

No.

[cheerios]

Was just trying to get some opinions on it. Yeah, I still agree that nimble is still better than the devil. It will probably just get hit by removal or will always get sacrificed.

[Einherjer]

Do not cut any of the 1 drops. Cut Goyfs but no 1 drops...*aarrrghhh*

[KobeBryan]

looks like gofy is gonna be gone now with vexing devil.

[I am the brainwasher]

Is that so?
Goyfs strength lies within dealing more than just once damage and is way more flexible.
That Demon sure is a good card but the fact that it costs 1 doesn't outweigh that it dies to bolt and is a horrible topdeck in front of a lot of cards that stall out the game (like Thrun) where it does matter to draw a Goyf.
I am testing Goyf-less Thresh for over 2 months now, not that I can't see cutting him, but I would not replace him with that douche.

Btw:
4 Delver 4 Mongoose 1 Clique 1 Snapcaster works out fine as far as Goyf-less testing goes.

[Awaclus]

I might sound dumb. hell It might be ridiculous.
We have no real conterspell beside force of will.

I played so many game where my opponent where just playing around daze.
--
At the last tourney, stifle sucked f****** balls.
Stifle is there to prevent your opponent from just playing around Daze. If you don't feel like Daze is effective, cutting Stifles is the last thing you should be doing.

[Tombstalker]

I've been proxying 2 of each miracle , wrath/walk, all morning. Both have been anywhere from poor to game winning with wrath the better of the two most consistently but wasteland can surprise screw either one easily. Anyway what I found was these (mostly mastery) really tone down brainstorms power to that of an average Cantrip. Starting to doubt its worth the trade off, at least to play both although wrath seems to be worth it because 5 damage for R is sick.

Vexing devil was so close to being great but I think chain lightnings spot removal option edges it out. Question though, can we choose to direct the damage to a plainswalker? If so then devil might still be considerable. Burn will like him either way since 3 in a game is a free bolt and probably speeds up their clock by a turn. Hanni's quickdraw wur deck could possibly make use of it also. In fact that deck is feeling scary as hell.

[Gui]

Do not cut any of the 1 drops. Cut Goyfs but no 1 drops...*aarrrghhh*

I was going to say this too... And also, are people trying to replace Goyf with the Demon? How's it going? Seems a possibility, somehow...

[ImpinAintEasy]

I was going to say this too... And also, are people trying to replace Goyf with the Demon? How's it going? Seems a possibility, somehow...

I'd think replacing Goyf with the Demon makes the Burn matchup almost unwinnable. Demon is really just a bad idea.

@Tombstalker - yes you can redirect the damage from the demon to a planeswalker, just like with any type of damage.

[r0773nluck]

So I was getting ready to make the investment in a set of goyf's and now I'm seeing all this hate towards them? Can I get some explanation please? Before I make the investment to finish my tempo deck. Out of all the games I played it seemed if I let my opponent resolve a goyf I'm basically I'm up shit creek without a paddle...I use to think goyf was not worth it he just a guy with a huge target and mongoose was good enough but sometimes I can't close the game quick enough and like I said above I have to answer to goyf if it resolves.

[Tombstalker]

Goyf is still amazing, just that 2 mana is alot for us. Buy 3 if anything and play 4 goose. I'm gonna test devil but I don't see it replacing goyf in thresh, maybe testing will prove different.

[Final Ritual]

The only thing that should be considered to replace Goyf is Ooze. Ooze trumps the mirror match and shrinks knight down. Also has the added benefit of gaining life and hits the graveyard.

I couldn't see thresh cutting Goyf, he is an unconditional beater for two mana. The devil you can lose on turn 1 without your opponent even using a card in his hand. Seems terrible in this style of deck where all of your cards are worth so much.

[r0773nluck]

So by theory this devil can be better then goyf.
Avoids Spell Snare
Cost 1
Has typically equal power 4/3 compared to the typical 4/5

The bad though.
It dies to bolt
Opponent gets a choice

[Koby]

Holy. Fucking. Shit.

You guys are halfway serious in considering cutting Goyf for Devils. Y'all really are infected with Preview-fever.

Why in the world would you cut the best reason to play Green in this deck at all?

[Einherjer]

Koby, dont listen, they might not know what they are doing right now. Wait a week or two and theyll be back to "normal mode" again, hopefully...
I guess the next thing you guys will do is replace FoW with Misdirection cause it dealz no damage?

Greetings

[illusivek]

Yeah let's cut Force for Browbeat too! Guys, the devil will NEVER be good because the opponent will always choose the option that hurts them least; instead of taking away their tactical options you give more to them basically.

[Zirael]

This new devil will see some play in burn, but i think cutting goyfs for devils is bad decision... For now i don't see a good card for Canadian in those spoiled cards. Time Walk 2.0 doesn't seem like a good plan for Canadian.

I've tested Sulfur elemental in some matches and it was very good. Too bad it costs 3 mana but split second and flash make up for it.

[xfxf]

I will derail the Devil conversation back to Stifle-Snare-Pierce debate if anyone else wants to participate. I read Levin's RUG article on SCG today and he strongly advises against Stifle and uses Daze, FoW, Snare, Pierce as the disruption suite.

I agree with Pierce being the most desirable choice in the counter suite but I believe Snare's functionality can be covered by burn spells and having Stifle instead of Snare can provide additional utility when needed. The list I'm trying is like this:

4 Goose
4 Delver
4 Goyf

3 FoW
3 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Stifle

4 Ligtning Bolt
3 Forked Bolt
2 Chain Lightning

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

18 lands

Additional burn spells here can act as a Spell Snare for most occasions (Ooze, Confidant, Thalia, SFM...) and Pierce can take care of the rest (Sylvan Library, Hymn, Animate Dead etc.) plus still having Stifle to foil plans. In such a configuration both Pierce and burn spells have their own uses while also doubling as Snare. What's the point in cutting Stifle and reducing Pierce, burn and Snare to conditional spells?

[jace247]

what about 2 of the new devil? instead of the 2 chain lighting spots or the forked bolts? that way you still keep the creature base and also its not bad even is they let it burn them in the face or let it resolve also we can counter the removal spell. thats just my opinion on the new devil any way.

[Awaclus]

what about 2 of the new devil? instead of the 2 chain lighting spots or the forked bolts? that way you still keep the creature base and also its not bad even is they let it burn them in the face or let it resolve also we can counter the removal spell. thats just my opinion on the new devil any way.
Dealing 4 damage to the opponent for R is nice, but not something I want to be doing on turn 1 when it's just a tempo disadvantage and a card disadvantage as well. On the other hand, killing a summoning sick Mother of Runes is something I definitely want to do on turn 1.

[Einherjer]

Tempo-lists run 12 creatures normally.
Well tuned Tempo-lists run 11 creatures.
DO NOT RUN MORE!

Maybe I am a bit old-fashioned but I would never ever cut Stifle and Snare. Why do you guys want to change so many things at an already working machine? My Counterusite is as stock as it can be:
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare

2 Spell Pierce
3 REB
from the side

Thats it.

[Zirael]

The problem with stifle vs spell pierce is that pierce shines most alongside with stifle. Stifle keep opponents off mana so they can't play extra for our pierce. I tested with 4 stifles and 3 spell pierces (in spell snares' place) and i didn't like it. Pierce doesn't help much with maverick. It's better vs UW and Esper but for me it's quite good matchup with out spell pierce.

When i play against control in late game pierce loses most of it's value. Same with daze but daze is good when we have tempo start.

And dazes counters creatures with is most important against maverick...

[wcm8]

Dear lord.

You all should realllllyyy read Drew Levin's article this week on SCG about RUG. I don't always agree with his viewpoints, but this article I can agree with pretty much everything (except for maybe some of the SB choices and also regarding Thought Scour).

For those of you still in love with Stifle, I urge you, just *try* dropping it for a week of solid testing. I think you will quickly find that you don't really miss it much, especially with Spell Pierce stepping in.

[Einherjer]

Okay I will give it a try, tell me what to play instead of my 4 Stifle. 3 Pierce 1 Burn or 4 Pierce?

Ill report back after a few days..lets see if it can surprise me.

[Vandalize]

Stifle is just great in this deck. It just fits perfectly the tempo role of this deck.

If you see this card as just a Sinkhole, you're doing it wrong. Stifle is just good against fetchlands in the first three turns (decreasingly efficient, just to add). After that, it's targets are various. I've stifled Maze of Ith's activation, Annhilation triggers, even Stoneforge ETB trigger and Mom's ability.

Spell Pierce does a good job protecting your Delver/Goyf, and might catch some boring spells. But this deck's goal is to disrupt your foe's mana, while beating with something, and saving permission for important spells. This is not CounterTop, where you can afford to counter everything.

If you just Stifle a fetchland because you can, you're doing it wrong. You have to see what's going on in the board, and if people are trying to play arround it. It's perhaps the most skillful card in this deck. Without it, Wastelands and Dazes become much worse.

Moreover, Spell Pierce sucks against Maverick, as it has been stated here several times. You might catch a GSZ and a Swords, and that's pretty much it. It's better off sideboard against matchups it really matters (like Storm, for example).

PS: Why you guys stick with Surgical Extraction? Tormod's Crypt should be this deck's first and best graveyard hate. It deals with KotR like a champ.

[Hof]

Spell Pierce does a good job protecting your Delver/Goyf, and might catch some boring spells. But this deck's goal is to disrupt your foe's mana, while beating with something, and saving permission for important spells.
More often than not a removal spell on your Delver/Goyf is the most important spell and the spell you need to counter.

[Scordata]

This deck is king again because of 1 card.

Delver.

An opponent who plays around stifle and daze, to stp your insect, will win the game.
Spell pierce keeps this from happening.

When people run more lands, keeping mana open for stifle effectively time walks yourself.
Spell pierce, on the other hand, is practically a hard counter for most removal spells --

and any other wincon you might care about, for that matter.

[Koby]

This deck is king again because of 1 card.

Delver.


QF-MoFo-T

[xfxf]

So nobody doubts the necessity of Spell Snare and the choice is between Pierce and Stifle?

[Hof]

So nobody doubts the necessity of Spell Snare and the choice is between Pierce and Stifle?
I do. My current maindeck counter suite is:
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterbalance
I haven't played Stifle or Spell Snare since some time before GP Amsterdam. I sometimes miss them. But Spell Pierce is more consistently useful. I have 2 more in sideboard.

[Tombstalker]

So nobody doubts the necessity of Spell Snare and the choice is between Pierce and Stifle?
I did..once. Then I started getting my ass handed to me by a mix of spells and creatures at 2cc. I even experimented with 3 each of fow/pierce/snare. In the end I returned to the tried and true sets with 3 snare. I just prefer having a (narrow but relevant) hard counter vs. daze 5-7 I guess. I think this is local meta dependent though since each has their merits.

Also I think im done toying with the new cards. They been ok when their good and really really bad when their not. Im now down to a single thunderous wrath as bolt #5 now. Sucks cause I had high hopes too.

[say no to scurvy]

For boarding against aggro, what is the correct card - rough/tumble or pyroclasm? I've seen lists go both ways.

[Tombstalker]

Since you will likely only run one or the other I prefer pyroclasm. hitting flyers is more relevant across the spectrum now although the cmc of rough might occasionally matter and it doesnt hit delver either. If you include wrath effects I think clasm is the best option currently.

[Dzra]

For boarding against aggro, what is the correct card - rough/tumble or pyroclasm? I've seen lists go both ways.

What aggro deck are you talking about? Between Lightning and Forked Bolt, you should be able to handle any aggro deck without using stuff like Rough/Tumble or Pyroclasm. If Burn is that bad then run more Spell Pierce or board a Hydroblast or two.

[Awaclus]

For boarding against aggro, what is the correct card - rough/tumble or pyroclasm? I've seen lists go both ways.
Rough//Tumble. It doesn't kill your Delvers, Pyroclasm does.

[Final Ritual]

Tempo-lists run 12 creatures normally.
Well tuned Tempo-lists run 11 creatures.
DO NOT RUN MORE!

Maybe I am a bit old-fashioned but I would never ever cut Stifle and Snare. Why do you guys want to change so many things at an already working machine? My Counterusite is as stock as it can be:
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare

2 Spell Pierce
3 REB
from the side

Thats it.

I've been running playing with this mix

3 FOW
3 Daze
4 Spell pierce
3 Spell Snare
2 Stifle

I ended up cutting the thought scours from the deck and put 2 stifles back in their place. I understand it builds tempo but I wanted the denial package back in.

[Pherion]

Rough//Tumble. It doesn't kill your Delvers, Pyroclasm does.

I've play tested Rough//Tumble, Pyroclasm, and firespout, and I've come to the conclusion that Pyroclasm is the best all around.

The day you take Rough//Tumble to a fight with a bunch flying creatures is the day you realize it's not that good. The things we want to wipe with this deck are: Spirit Tokens, Bridge Tokens, Burn creatures, any other swarmy stuff. The big one that Rough//Tubmble doesn't do is Spirit Tokens. If you to dedicate four slots in your board to whipes, you could include Sulfur Elemental as well.

As for Firespout, it gives you the option of conditionally wiping the board, but at CMC 3, it's pricey, and it requires you to have some very good mana set, which isn't always possible with this deck.

Pyroclasm is a good all around board wipe, it doesn't kill an active Mongoose, or a Goyf, so we still can generally keep our tempo. It does kill delver, but even if you get a 2 for 2 out of it, and still have another creature on the board, it was well worth the tempo swing.

[Einherjer]

I was playing at our little local tournament yesterday and finished 2-1, winning versus MonoB-Pox(!), UW CounterThopter and getting crashed by Maverick.

After this, even very very little tournament, I draw one simple fact as a conclusion. "Do not cut Stifles"
Guys I wouldnt have been able to win vs Pox or CounterThopter without these Stifles.

I playtested Pierces and I did not like them. Sorry

Greetings

[Hof]

I was playing at our little local tournament yesterday and finished 2-1, winning versus MonoB-Pox(!), UW CounterThopter and getting crashed by Maverick.

After this, even very very little tournament, I draw one simple fact as a conclusion. "Do not cut Stifles"
Guys I wouldnt have been able to win vs Pox or CounterThopter without these Stifles.

I playtested Pierces and I did not like them. Sorry

Greetings

Good Pox lists have four meaningful targets (Wasteland) for Stifle, while Spell Pierce can target nearly all spells in a Pox deck. I suggest you test more.

[Ajsmirnov]

I was playing at our little local tournament yesterday and finished 2-1, winning versus MonoB-Pox(!), UW CounterThopter and getting crashed by Maverick.


Did you use sideboard like posted 2 pages back?


2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surigcal Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Rough // Tumble
4 Submerge

I am very interested in how did you side against maverick. I never doubht that submerge is good, but is it enough? And how was tarmo in this match?

Thx for answers in advance..

[Einherjer]

My Sideboard was meta-optimized - the one posted before would be my sideboard for a big tournament.
My side was:

1 Engineered Explosives
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
3 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Submerge

Why so many Vortex? Because I expected a lot of Stoneblade and Control-Decks. It worked well.

Yes I know Pox is a bad MU and Pierce might be better overall, but Stifle won me G1 and G2 due to stifling his 1st turn Fetchland. I know I should practice more, but this deck isnt a deck at all to be honest and I hope I wont come across this on bigger tournaments like GP Gent

Sideboarding-Plans (I used)

vs: Maverick:+ 3 Submerge + 3 Vortex +1 EE, -4 Stifle, -1 Spell Snare -1 Goyf, -1 FoW
vs: Pox: +2 Spell Pierce +3 Surgical Extraction, -2 Forked Bolt - 3 Lightning Bolt
vs: CounterThopter: +3 Surgical Extraction +2 Red Elemental Blast +1 Pyroblast +3 Vortex +1 EE, -4 Delver of Secrets - 4 Goyf -2 Forked Bolt - 2 Stifle

I practised the Maverick-MU so often and I thought I was quite sure how to play but I had bad luck at both games. Mull to 6/ Mull to 5 and no strong hands either... So well

Greetings

[Ajsmirnov]

so u don't play Sulfur elemental?

[Einherjer]

As Lingering Souls aren't that popular in my recent local meta I dont. For a wider meta I would play 4 Submerge and 2 Rough vs Maverick which is enough as long as I dont draw shit and mull bad.

[Purgatory]

Dear lord.

You all should realllllyyy read Drew Levin's article this week on SCG about RUG. I don't always agree with his viewpoints, but this article I can agree with pretty much everything (except for maybe some of the SB choices and also regarding Thought Scour).

For those of you still in love with Stifle, I urge you, just *try* dropping it for a week of solid testing. I think you will quickly find that you don't really miss it much, especially with Spell Pierce stepping in.

Damn premium :/

I guess I'll read it when it comes available to us cheap bastards.

[wcm8]

To add to the thread...

Matchups that get better with Stifle:
-Goblins (definitely)
-Nic Fit (maybe)
-some aggro decks with Wasteland and other triggered abilities (Death and Taxes, other variants)

Matchups that get better with Spell Pierce:
-Non-storm combo (Reanimator, Show and Tell, Aluren, Enchantress, etc.)
-Burn (including UR Delver)
-Stax/MUD/'Stompy'
-Pox/MBC and variants
-Decks playing discard
-Decks playing random crap like Bitterblossom
-Counterbalance and/or Thopter Foundry variants
-Natural Order variants
-Control in general (just about anything using Jace maindeck)
-Most aggro matchups (Maverick, Affinity, Zoo, etc. -- if for no other reason than it counters removal)

Matchups where either card is about equal (equally good or equally bad/mediocre):
-Storm-based combo (ANT, TES, Belcher, other variants)
-Mirrors and close-to-mirrors (although I'd argue for an edge to Spell Pierce)
-Dredge (Stifle does kill dredged Narcomoebas and Coliseum triggers, but Pierce stops all their spells.. Both are pretty weak)

There are obviously many decks that I've missed here, but this is just a brief introductory comparison list. And maybe you disagree with my comparisons...In any case I would suggest you make a list of your own local metagame and weigh the cards against each other.

I got 4th place today in a small local tournament (16~ players) and lost to Mono Red Goblins (the eventual winner) in the quarter finals. I did beat him in the Swiss. I'd say the match is generally favored for RUG, however his list was pretty unconventional and ran stuff like maindeck Lightning Bolt, Pyrokinesis, and brought in a lot of hate from the SB like Chalice of the Void which completely screwed me in the game I couldn't counter it on one. This is definitely one matchup where Stifle is a huge bomb since their entire deck is reliant on triggers.

Aside from this matchup, there were no other decks in the entire room where I would have preferred to have Stifle. As another poster pointed out, Spell Pierce is invaluable for protecting your Delvers early on from removal.

[JJ-JKidd]

MD Spell Pierce also frees up the slot in the SB if in case you guys have it in your SB.

[I am the brainwasher]

The difference between lists with Stifle and those without is indeed that you are either trying to chop the opponent off of mana temporarily, to not let him build enough board presence to stop the continuous beats, or to ride a better protected creature-base to victory, mostly on the wings of Insectile Aberration and a tuned sb.
Both variants have some real (dis)advantages and both plans are likeley to fail depending on which deck is in front of you. I would be glad if we could close the curtain of that discussion at least a bit, if not completely and have a common-sense that both ways are totally legitimate and are a choice that is nuanced by the meta you estimate to step into and personal playstyle.

[keys]

The difference between lists with Stifle and those without is indeed that you are either trying to chop the opponent off of mana temporarily, to not let him build enough board presence to stop the continuous beats, or to ride a better protected creature-base to victory, mostly on the wings of Insectile Aberration and a tuned sb.
Both variants have some real (dis)advantages and both plans are likeley to fail depending on which deck is in front of you. I would be glad if we could close the curtain of that discussion at least a bit, if not completely and have a common-sense that both ways are totally legitimate and are a choice that is nuanced by the meta you estimate to step into and personal playstyle.

Well spoken. I hope you stick around here.

[Telkku]

To add to the thread...

Matchups that get better with Stifle:
-Goblins (definitely)
-Nic Fit (maybe)
-some aggro decks with Wasteland and other triggered abilities (Death and Taxes, other variants)

Matchups that get better with Spell Pierce:
-Non-storm combo (Reanimator, Show and Tell, Aluren, Enchantress, etc.)
-Burn (including UR Delver)
-Stax/MUD/'Stompy'
-Pox/MBC and variants
-Decks playing discard
-Decks playing random crap like Bitterblossom
-Counterbalance and/or Thopter Foundry variants
-Natural Order variants
-Control in general (just about anything using Jace maindeck)
-Most aggro matchups (Maverick, Affinity, Zoo, etc. -- if for no other reason than it counters removal)

Matchups where either card is about equal (equally good or equally bad/mediocre):
-Storm-based combo (ANT, TES, Belcher, other variants)
-Mirrors and close-to-mirrors (although I'd argue for an edge to Spell Pierce)
-Dredge (Stifle does kill dredged Narcomoebas and Coliseum triggers, but Pierce stops all their spells.. Both are pretty weak)

There are obviously many decks that I've missed here, but this is just a brief introductory comparison list. And maybe you disagree with my comparisons...In any case I would suggest you make a list of your own local metagame and weigh the cards against each other.

I got 4th place today in a small local tournament (16~ players) and lost to Mono Red Goblins (the eventual winner) in the quarter finals. I did beat him in the Swiss. I'd say the match is generally favored for RUG, however his list was pretty unconventional and ran stuff like maindeck Lightning Bolt, Pyrokinesis, and brought in a lot of hate from the SB like Chalice of the Void which completely screwed me in the game I couldn't counter it on one. This is definitely one matchup where Stifle is a huge bomb since their entire deck is reliant on triggers.

Aside from this matchup, there were no other decks in the entire room where I would have preferred to have Stifle. As another poster pointed out, Spell Pierce is invaluable for protecting your Delvers early on from removal.

Stifle helps alot more vs Maverick than pierce, and im saying this cause i play Maverick and its ALOT harder to play against stifle than pierce.

[keys]

Sherwin Pu piloted a Stifle-powered version to 1st place at SCG Phoenix this weekend (link (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=45470)). I love the Library and Chains.

[I am the brainwasher]

Fabian Moyschewitz placed 2nd both in the swiss and Top8 @ a/the win-a-lotus Legacy-Cup in germany. Even if his list is pretty standard, it is useful to see what the cream of the crop of Threshold pilots run.
Top 8 lists: link (http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?id=6117&typ=2&action=comments)

Looking not only at lists, but also understanding the thought behind them and figuring out how other (better) players interpret the archetype right now, is dang helpful to take your game to the next level IMO.

[Scordata]

Fabian Moyschewitz is unequivocally one of the best threshold players in the world. I'm very curious to know why he's on the stifle plan. If anyone reading this knows him (and I know a few of you sourcers do), I'd like to hear is opinion on the debate.

[Awaclus]

Matchups that get better with Stifle:
-Goblins (definitely)
-Nic Fit (maybe)
-some aggro decks with Wasteland and other triggered abilities (Death and Taxes, other variants)

Matchups that get better with Spell Pierce:
-Non-storm combo (Reanimator, Show and Tell, Aluren, Enchantress, etc.)
-Burn (including UR Delver)
-Stax/MUD/'Stompy'
-Pox/MBC and variants
-Decks playing discard
-Decks playing random crap like Bitterblossom
-Counterbalance and/or Thopter Foundry variants
-Natural Order variants
-Control in general (just about anything using Jace maindeck)
-Most aggro matchups (Maverick, Affinity, Zoo, etc. -- if for no other reason than it counters removal)

Matchups where either card is about equal (equally good or equally bad/mediocre):
-Storm-based combo (ANT, TES, Belcher, other variants)
-Mirrors and close-to-mirrors (although I'd argue for an edge to Spell Pierce)
-Dredge (Stifle does kill dredged Narcomoebas and Coliseum triggers, but Pierce stops all their spells.. Both are pretty weak)
"Some aggro decks with Wasteland and other triggered abilities" are probably the majority of Legacy decks, and then you're listing many decks that aren't even seeing a lot of play in the "where Pierce is better" section. Yeah, 10 cases of Pierce being better and 3 cases of Stifle being better - seems legit. :rolleyes:

[wcm8]

"Some aggro decks with Wasteland and other triggered abilities" are probably the majority of Legacy decks, and then you're listing many decks that aren't even seeing a lot of play in the "where Pierce is better" section. Yeah, 10 cases of Pierce being better and 3 cases of Stifle being better - seems legit. :rolleyes:

I don't know about your local metagame, but mine personally sees quite a lot of variety. In fact the reason I listed out a lot of those decks was because I saw them over the course of the weekend.

In a highly evolved, predictable metagame where every player is making a 'rational' deck choice, sure, you can argue for one card being unarguably superior over the other. But so much of Legacy is just composed of random junk that you have to beat in the Swiss on your way to facing 'real' tier 1/2 decks.

[Purgatory]

To add to the thread...

Matchups that get better with Stifle:
-Goblins (definitely)
-Nic Fit (maybe)
-some aggro decks with Wasteland and other triggered abilities (Death and Taxes, other variants)

Matchups that get better with Spell Pierce:
-Non-storm combo (Reanimator, Show and Tell, Aluren, Enchantress, etc.)
-Burn (including UR Delver)
-Stax/MUD/'Stompy'
-Pox/MBC and variants
-Decks playing discard
-Decks playing random crap like Bitterblossom
-Counterbalance and/or Thopter Foundry variants
-Natural Order variants
-Control in general (just about anything using Jace maindeck)
-Most aggro matchups (Maverick, Affinity, Zoo, etc. -- if for no other reason than it counters removal)

Matchups where either card is about equal (equally good or equally bad/mediocre):
-Storm-based combo (ANT, TES, Belcher, other variants)
-Mirrors and close-to-mirrors (although I'd argue for an edge to Spell Pierce)
-Dredge (Stifle does kill dredged Narcomoebas and Coliseum triggers, but Pierce stops all their spells.. Both are pretty weak)

There are obviously many decks that I've missed here, but this is just a brief introductory comparison list. And maybe you disagree with my comparisons...In any case I would suggest you make a list of your own local metagame and weigh the cards against each other.


More people have disagreed with your list, but I also have to chime in. Your list is skewed for several reasons, but I just have to add: Stifle, simply for countering fetchlands, is extremely strong against any other blue-based Aggro-Control decks, I think it's one of the key spells to keep up with UR Delver. Stifling their first fetch and following up with Mongoose on turn two with U open is extremely strong against them.

Aside from that, Stifle is, to me, an extremely useful utility spell, countering stuff like triggered abilities on Stoneforge Mystic (nice Squire), and it can be used to combat Planeswalkers much in the same way as Spell Pierce. Granted, if you coutner a Jace bounce or a Liliana Edict, you have to spend a turn swinging with at least one creature to kill off the PW, so they get a conditional Fog out of their three-four mana spell, instead of just trading 1:1 with Spell Pierce.

I'd much rather have Spell Pierce than Stifle against most Storm combo decks, but I think it's worth mentioning that Belcher is one of the decks where Stifle can be a complete blow-out. Against TES/ANT, you'll be Duressed/Chanted to hell and back before they go off, and although I have played against RGb Belcher with Rituals and Duress, most builds seems to be RG, even though the deck is rare these days. Against them, Stifle can be a complete game-breaker, either countering the Storm trigger, or the Belcher activation, where Spell Pierce would do nothing. Spell Pierce can be used to stunt their mana building, but people have been blown out by Spirit Guides taking Belcher to 4 before, and they will in the future as well.

The two of them both have their merits, and I can see differente applications for both depending on your metagame or personal preference. Personall, I'd never leave home without my Stifles, at least not in Sweden where decks tend to play fetches and duals in abundance, while mono-coloured decks like DnT, Tribes etc. are rare. However, your list is completely skewed and tries to portray Spell Pierce as the clearly superior choice.

[Hof]

The difference between lists with Stifle and those without is indeed that you are either trying to chop the opponent off of mana temporarily, to not let him build enough board presence to stop the continuous beats, or to ride a better protected creature-base to victory, mostly on the wings of Insectile Aberration and a tuned sb.
Both variants have some real (dis)advantages and both plans are likeley to fail depending on which deck is in front of you. I would be glad if we could close the curtain of that discussion at least a bit, if not completely and have a common-sense that both ways are totally legitimate and are a choice that is nuanced by the meta you estimate to step into and personal playstyle.

I have to disagree. There isn't such a difference, it's the same deck, trying to do the same thing that Threshold has been trying to do forever. 4 Stifle and 4 Wasteland lets the deck capitalize better on an opponents mana problems, but there is no way that those 8 cards will let you cut anyone off of mana, even temporarily, in every game as plan A. It's more of an opportunity thing. Some decks do not care about those 8 cards, and some deck that do care will sometimes not care anyway because they simply draw enough mana. In those games this deck needs to give up on that plan and change strategy. And that is one thing that this deck does very well. When opponent has 4-5 lands, two of which are basics, it doesn't mean you have lost the game. It only means that you change strategy. Maybe you save Wasteland for a utility land, and maybe you save Stifle for other targets than fetch. Or maybe you try to avoid Wasteland and Stifle entirely with Brainstorm/Ponder. Whether or not the deck has 4 Stifle does not change its major goal, which is to ride one or two creatures to victory by protecting them and yourself from harm. Now, the means for protecting the creatures and yourself may vary, but the plan does not. It's the same deck.

[xfxf]

I'll be getting my last few pieces next month and give this deck a spin. However I'm thinking about dropping Snare in favor of Pierce instead of the either/or of Pierce and Stifle.

Pierce can hit 2cc spells. Burn can hit 2cc creatures. Meanwhile I won't lose the utility of Stifle. So I want to see how this disruption suite will fare:

3 FoW
3 Pierce
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Bolt
3 Forked Bolt
2 Chain Lightning

[I am the brainwasher]

Fabian Moyschewitz is unequivocally one of the best threshold players in the world. I'm very curious to know why he's on the stifle plan. If anyone reading this knows him (and I know a few of you sourcers do), I'd like to hear is opinion on the debate.

I wish I could help out. Sadly, I can't.
All I know is that some of the best Threshold players in germany have a decent contact to eachother and discuss lists for the actual meta and share choices and ideas to optimize their decks.
Regarding Stifle:
In europe it is pretty much decided since years that the disruption of 4 Stifle and Waste is a necessity. Running completely without Stifle is somewhat unusual/fancy.
Besides that, the meta differs quite a bit in comparison to the U.S..

[landwalker000]

You could always just move FOW to the sideboard, or cut it, and run both.

[lordofthepit]

My opinion in the Stifle vs. Spell Pierce debate is that in the present metagame, Stifle is overwhelmingly the better maindeck card. This comes from a pilot who maindecks Spell Pierces more often than most when I choose to play blue (and in fact, my preference is to play both Stifle and Spell Pierce, cutting some or all of the Spell Snare slots).

Below are a list of the most played decks last month according to TCDecks (in decreasing order), and my analysis on the merits of Stifle vs. Pierce in that particular matchup:
- Maverick. Overwhelmingly in favor of Stifle. Spell Pierce will rarely give you value, whereas Stifle can give you occasional blowout wins against their fetchlands and Wastelands. Even in the late game, it has marginal utility against Mother of Runes, Knight of the Reliquary, Maze of Ith, Stoneforge Mystic, etc.
- Stoneblade. In favor of Stifle. In addition to the usual fetchlands and Wastelands, Stoneforge Mystic, Snapcaster Mage, and equipment are good targets even in the mid-to-late game (in addition to occasionally useful but mostly desperate plays against planeswalker activations, Vendilion Clique, etc.). In contrast, Spell Pierce will rarely hit anything useful after a few turns, aside from Jace and the now rarely played Crucible of Worlds. However, I find Jace pretty underwhelming in this matchup unless the Stoneblade player has already stabilized, since they have to deal with your board presence and resolve it through Pierce, in addition to worrying about Bolts and possible REBs in the board.
- Canadian Threshold (mirror). Pierce is good, Stifle is great. Decks with Stifle have a decided edge in the mirror.
- Dredge. I'm not sure. Pierce is better if they're on the explode on you plan (with a turn 2 Careful Study/Breakthrough/Faithless Looting) with a dredger already in the yard, but only if you don't already have Force or Dazes already. Stifle is better if they're on the slow grind plan (which circumvents your other countermagic), since Stifling a Narcomoeba trigger or a Coliseum activation is awesome, while Stifling a Bridge or an Ichorid trigger isn't as nice, but is still useful. I'm calling this in favor of Pierce on the draw and in favor of Stifle on the play (since they're more likely to DDD and you've likely boarded out your Dazes).
- Sneak Attack. Spell Pierce, by a lot. Not much to say here. Stifle is still good, but Pierce is one of the best cards you can see in this matchup.
- Nic Fit. The two cards most likely to wreck you are Veteran Explorer and Pernicious Deed, so Stifle is overwhelmingly the better card here. Even without those two cards, there is no end to the number of Stifle targets in this matchup (fetchlands, Liliana, Finks' life gain and persist triggers, Academy Rector, Recurring Nightmare, Titans, etc.), so it's even good in the late game.
- Ad Nauseam Storm. Spell Pierce, by a little. Both are amazing. Pierce is better against TES, since it deals with Chant/Silence, which is the most threatening card they have. Stifle is probably a little better against the rarely played Grinding Station deck.
- Elves. Both cards suck and should get boarded out. Glimpse and GSZ are the only targets for Pierce, but this deck has so much mana, it's rarely actually live. Stifle isn't great either, although these decks tend to run a lot of fetchlands to thin the deck, since they do in fact draw a lot of cards. Elvish Visionary is a decent Stifle target, although it's not great; hitting Regal Force is living the dream.
- Burn. Spell Pierce, by a huge margin. Not even close. All the Stifle targets suck pretty hard (Rift Bolt, Sulfuric Vortex, Barbarian Ring, Keldon Marauders, Hellspark Elemental).
- Team America. Just speculating here, but I expect Stifle to be better for the same reason that Stifle is better against the mirror.
- Reanimator. Stifle is good. Spell Pierce is amazing. Huge edge in favor of Pierce.
- Aggro Loam. Both cards are mediocre. Not a huge number of targets for Pierce. Plenty of targets for Stifle (fetchlands, Wastelands, cycling lands, Dark Confidant), but all of them are low impact. Push?
- Spiral Tide. Stifle is great if you can hit a fetchland, mediocre if you hit Candelabra, and dead otherwise. Spell Pierce is always awesome in this matchup. Big edge to Pierce.
- Zoo. Stifle. Blowing out their mana is your most realistic chance at winning this matchup.
- Merfolk. Both cards suck. Probably slight edge to Stifle for being able to hit Wasteland, Vial, Adept, and Reejery.
- Affinity. Both cards suck really hard, unless the deck runs Arcbound Ravager, in which case you'll get an occasional blowout. I'd hate having either card here though.
- Bant Aggro. This is really build dependent, but both cards have their uses. Stifle is probably better against the decks that resemble Maverick or Stoneblade, whereas Pierce is much better against the Natural Order builds.
- Painter. Not sure; probably Pierce.
- Thopters. Not sure, but I prefer Pierce.
- MUD. Depends. Stifle is better against Forgemaster combo, whereas Stifle is better against the lock-heavy builds running Chalices and Trinispheres.
- Pox. Pierce is much better.
- Deadguy. Stifle is better, since this deck runs fetchlands, Wastelands, and Stoneforges, with possibly other targets depending on build (Aether Vial, Dark Depths, Tidehollow Sculler, Gatekeeper, etc.).
- Hive Mind. Pierce is better against the Show and Tell->Fatty plan. Stifle is much better if you can kill their mana development, or if they're on the Hive Mind plan. Not only does it prevent them from winning, but it almost always kills them on their next upkeep, plus you don't even need to hold mana open when they're comboing off. Stifle overall.
- Belcher. Pierce.
- Goblins. Stifle.
- Death and Taxes. Stifle.
- Mono Black Aggro. I've never seen this deck before. Is this the Gate?
- Enchantress. Both are good, but Pierce is slightly better.

Since Stifle looks better (IMO) against the top 3 decks in the format, I will be including it in my Threshold decks for the forseeable future.

[Hof]

Very nice list. It is rare to see such useful posts here. I agree with most of your evaluations, if not with your conclusion that Stifle is 'overwhelmingly' better. I can see why you think Stifle is better based on what you percieve as top decks, but in my opinion a cards usefulness in the metagame isn't determined by top decks alone.

I also agree with this:

my preference is to play both Stifle and Spell Pierce, cutting some or all of the Spell Snare slots.
It is a little wierd that the debate is over Stifle vs Spell Pierce, when it should be over Stifle, Spell Pierce, and Spell Snare. Spell Snare is the weakest link in that chain.

[catmint]

Thanks a lot lordofthepit! That should settles the discussion Pierce vs. Stifle.

Snare is currently better than Pierce IMO, since you will still face SFM & Snapcaster-Mage & Thalia very often.

[I am the brainwasher]

It is a little wierd that the debate is over Stifle vs Spell Pierce, when it should be over Stifle, Spell Pierce, and Spell Snare. Spell Snare is the weakest link in that chain.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lu39ylGn0B1qa9yff.gif

[Tombstalker]

This debate is endless and depends on what you will encounter. For example I removed snare for pierce yesterday and played against reanimator and maverick only. Pierce sucked against maverick and I actually lost one game due to resolved thalia while holding a pierce. So whats that mean? Nothing. Obviously pierce was great against reanimator (UB and mono B). Conversely stifle was dead against mono B reanimator (ya its a deck and mean one too) except for jin-gitaxias and animate dead triggers. Conclusion: all our counterspells are conditional so its a gamble either way. Choose what works for you. I tend to get caught up in the interweb debates when my local environment is nowhere near as complex. Ive dropped down to 3 of each other spell in the past to squeeze pierce main and may do so again but I think the tried and tested suite is best in an unknown meta.

Edit- So fade away: 4U put target permanent on to owners library. Miracle U. Seems good as pseudo submerge and against counterbalance, artifact/enchantment removal and jives well with mana denial if nothing else. Thoughts?

[wcm8]

Removal that requires setup and has timing restrictions is pretty much unplayable. I wouldn't bother with it

Also, Submerge is partly so good because you can play it in response to a shuffle activation. With this card you generally won't ever have that luxury.

[Tombstalker]

Those are the main issues but its effect is powerful being able to bounce any permanent to their library for U while dodging CB and snare and against reanimator its pretty much hard removal. I've been testing the miracles 2 at a time and this one and wrath both seem to have potential. So far I can't tell if I prefer the slightly higher consistency or the potential power of the miracles.

[Einherjer]

Please stop to suggest useless new things. The new TimeWalk was already borderline. This bounce is just over the top - USELESS!

[Tombstalker]

Haha dude chill. There's nothing wrong with some discussion over new cards. Fact is most players just net deck so a card isn't considered playable until someone wins a large event with it. I don't see whats wrong with some innovation. If these cards turn out to suck fine but I prefer this to endlessly revisiting the same staples and expecting different results.

[rancOr_]

I dont know why u all want to fit in spell pierce MD suddenly.. I mean its a perfect sideboard card for a reason. And swapping them for stifle/snare is so wrong.
For what its worth still rocking the 1off Sylvan and its been awesome every single time.

[Snap_Keep]

Hello all,

I have a question to ask about this archetype. I have a little experience piloting this deck and playing against it. I generally play tempo based decks in legacy, but just recently decided to hop on the bandwagon and build Can Thresh. More recently I've been playing Grixis Tempo and U/R Delver (which is more burn that tempo, I suppose). Anyway my question is about flex slots, I'm probably putting too much emphasis on construction here and should just focus on gaining more practice, but here goes. I have two flex slots which I have been changing between Chains and Fire // Ice. I feel like Chain Lightning gives to deck more reach and it being cheaper is very relevant as well. What I am leaning towards is F//I because of it's versatility, ability to kill a summoning sick Mom and a Thalia and the occassional miser's blowout where you Ice there only land on a crucial turn.

Do you guys think F//I has simply become outdated? Or is it just that there are better options (Sylvan Library, Dismember, 1-2 SCM?) for the flex spots?

Here is my list for reference.

x4 goyf
x4 delver
x4 mongoose
x1 scavenging ooze

x4 ponder
x4 brainstorm
x3 spell snare
x4 daze
x4 stifle
x4 force of will
x4 lightning bolt
x2 fire // ice

x4 waste
x3 scalding tarn
x4 misty rainforest
x1 wooded foothills
x3 volcanic island
x3 tropical island

sb

x1 reb
x1 pyroblast
x3 submerge
x2 ancient grudge
x3 surgical extraction
x2 tormod's crypt
x3 spell pierce

[Awaclus]

Hello all,

I have a question to ask about this archetype. I have a little experience piloting this deck and playing against it. I generally play tempo based decks in legacy, but just recently decided to hop on the bandwagon and build Can Thresh. More recently I've been playing Grixis Tempo and U/R Delver (which is more burn that tempo, I suppose). Anyway my question is about flex slots, I'm probably putting too much emphasis on construction here and should just focus on gaining more practice, but here goes. I have two flex slots which I have been changing between Chains and Fire // Ice. I feel like Chain Lightning gives to deck more reach and it being cheaper is very relevant as well. What I am leaning towards is F//I because of it's versatility, ability to kill a summoning sick Mom and a Thalia and the occassional miser's blowout where you Ice there only land on a crucial turn.

Do you guys think F//I has simply become outdated? Or is it just that there are better options (Sylvan Library, Dismember, 1-2 SCM?) for the flex spots?

Here is my list for reference.

x4 goyf
x4 delver
x4 mongoose
x1 scavenging ooze

x4 ponder
x4 brainstorm
x3 spell snare
x4 daze
x4 stifle
x4 force of will
x4 lightning bolt
x2 fire // ice

x4 waste
x3 scalding tarn
x4 misty rainforest
x1 wooded foothills
x3 volcanic island
x3 tropical island

sb

x1 reb
x1 pyroblast
x3 submerge
x2 ancient grudge
x3 surgical extraction
x2 tormod's crypt
x3 spell pierce
Why are you playing the Ooze? You don't have a tutor for it, it's a situational card and probably you won't draw it very often in the situation in which it's good if it's a singleton.

Many people, including myself, play Forked Bolt in the so-called flexible slots.

[Snap_Keep]

I play the singleton Ooze because I like playing 17 creatures and it's a great card. I'd rather play x5 goyfs but this is fine. What are you implying/trying to communicate in calling them "so-called" flex slots?

I have Forked Bolts but I feel like F//I does the the same thing for one more mana but has another card attached to it with a relevant ability. Plus F//I is an instant.

[Awaclus]

I play the singleton Ooze because I like playing 17 creatures and it's a great card. I'd rather play x5 goyfs but this is fine. What are you implying/trying to communicate in calling them "so-called" flex slots?
You called them flex slots. That's why I called them flex slots as well, to simplify the discussion. Normally I wouldn't, because the other slots are flexible as well if you want them to be.

[Hof]

Do you guys think F//I has simply become outdated?
On the contratry, it is more relevant than ever. Fire for the same reason that Forked Bolt is seeing some play, and Ice for tapping lands and large creatures (Ice on large, equipped creature + draw a card = Time Walk).

[catmint]

I played with Fire/Ice a ton and despite there is sick value out of ice sometimes, 90%+ of the time it is fire. 1 mana less is much more important than the instant speed. 2 mana is already a lot for RUG in times where you have to face thalia. Forked bolt or chain lightning are the better choices for the flex spots.

[spartan117]

I play the singleton Ooze because I like playing 17 creatures and it's a great card. I'd rather play x5 goyfs but this is fine.

First of all, your playing 13 creatures, and they're way too many, trust me.
Also, goyf is the worst creature in the deck, you'll understand it by yourself in short time. If i wanted to play any creature as a 5-off, it would certainly be Mongoose, that's why Caleb is playing a single GSZ. (and only 2 goyfs).

[Tombstalker]

I went back to F/I recently because I missed ice and instant speed plus pitching to fow. I had immediate problems with Thalia and friends so now I'm back on forked bolt. If your group has lots of maverick and bant bolt is better, or even chain. If not then obviously fire/ice is the better card.
On creatures I agree 13 is too many. Creature heavy hands are the death if this deck. Like many people I've changed to 3 goyf and max goose. Goyf is still the shit but I hate drawing multiples while delver and goose just win games like nobodys business.

So back to those 'useless' miracles, I'm calling it now, fade away will be a staple in this deck just not sure of the number.
Edit- spoiler language changed to 'Nonland' so never mind.

[from Cairo]

I went back to F/I recently because I missed ice and instant speed plus pitching to fow. I had immediate problems with Thalia and friends so now I'm back on forked bolt. If your group has lots of maverick and bant bolt is better, or even chain. If not then obviously fire/ice is the better card.
On creatures I agree 13 is too many. Creature heavy hands are the death if this deck. Like many people I've changed to 3 goyf and max goose. Goyf is still the shit but I hate drawing multiples while delver and goose just win games like nobodys business.

I think Forked Bolt is probably the better choice if one's actually trying to pad agro. The fact that it can answer opponents turn 1 plays on the draw is a notable plus over Fire//Ice.

I also agree with 11 creature configurations. 4 Delver, 4 Nimble, 3 Goyf; although the idea of 2 Goyf and a GSZ seems worth exploring.


I dont know why u all want to fit in spell pierce MD suddenly.. I mean its a perfect sideboard card for a reason. And swapping them for stifle/snare is so wrong.
For what its worth still rocking the 1off Sylvan and its been awesome every single time.

I'm trying a MD Spell Pierce - I think it has relevant targets versus the format, it's not phenomenal against creature decks, but it can randomly hit a piece of equipment, planeswalker, removal, etc.

The miser copy of Sylvan Library is a solid pick. I've been boarding it out in some of the faster/explosive match ups, but versus fair decks the filter has been phenomenal everytime it's come up.

I'm currently testing the following list:

Instants 21
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce

Creatures 11
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf

Sorceries 9
4 Ponder
3 Chain Lightning
2 Forked Bolt

Enchantments 1
1 Sylvan Library

Land 18
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Island

Sideboard 15
3 Submerge (Maverick/Bant)
2 Tormod's Crypt (Dredge/Reanimator)
2 Pyroblast (Hightide/Jace.dec)
1 Surgical Extraction (Dredge/Reanimator/Loam/Snapcaster.dec)
1 Engineered Explosives (Dredge/Maverick)
1 Flusterstorm (Storm/Burn)
1 Spell Pierce (Combo/Control/Burn)
1 Red Elemental Blast (Hightide/Jace.dec)
1 Guided Drake (Show&Tell/Reanimator/KotR)
1 Ancient Grudge (CotV)
1 Krosan Grip (Equipment/Random)

[Tombstalker]

A single gsz in place if the 3rd goyf definitely has merit. It counts as goose 5, increases our threat density (slightly each time cast) yet doesn't flood opening 7 like adding more creatures would. I like the idea.
Back on pierce, after testing uw miracle control I'm really starting to feel that pierce may need to replace snare in some number, and stifle is clearly main deck. Basically I think terminus will push out maverick and likely replace stoneblade so pierce may become better than snare. Anyone else care to speculate?

[Vandalize]

A single gsz in place if the 3rd goyf definitely has merit. It counts as goose 5, increases our threat density (slightly each time cast) yet doesn't flood opening 7 like adding more creatures would. I like the idea.
Back on pierce, after testing uw miracle control I'm really starting to feel that pierce may need to replace snare in some number, and stifle is clearly main deck. Basically I think terminus will push out maverick and likely replace stoneblade so pierce may become better than snare. Anyone else care to speculate?

Don't forget GSZ is also a shuffle effect for Brainstorm. And yeah, Stifle is definetely main deck.

[I am the brainwasher]

Top 8'ed a 89 ppl. tourney today.

Spiral Tide with Candles 2:0
Burn 2:0
R(bg) Goblins 2:0
Jund Nic Fit (w. Punishing Fire) 0:2
Dead Guy Ale 1:1
Burn 2:0
Maverick (w. Punishing Fire) 2:1

5-1-1

Might write a report.

[Raggedjoe]

I tried the GSZ but I felt that I couldn't front the 3 mana to get a Goyf. Maybe 3 Goyf + GSZ would be better?

Here's my current list.

4 Delver
4 Mongoose
3 Goyf

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Stand
1 Island

SB:
2 Mind Harness
2 Sulphur Elemental
3 REB
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Perish
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip

I really like the Pierces, I feel they give us a huge boost vs BW StoneBlade and UW StoneBlade. I also feel confidant in not needing sb cards for combo with them md. They are strong in many matchups and only weak vs Mav, though they can still counter GSZ, Library, and Elspeth.

I'm on the fence about the singleton grip sb... 3 is a lot :/

[cheerios]

Top 8'ed a 89 ppl. tourney today.

Spiral Tide with Candles 2:0
Burn 2:0
R(bg) Goblins 2:0
Jund Nic Fit (w. Punishing Fire) 0:2
Dead Guy Ale 1:1
Burn 2:0
Maverick (w. Punishing Fire) 2:1

5-1-1

Might write a report.

I'm interested in seeing your report. Played in 7 round tourney last night too, lost to Punishing Maverick, UR delver and Enchantress. Faced 3 different Maverick variants in my tourney (GW with stoneforge, GW with Fauna and Punishing Maverick) Any tips on burn and Punishing Maverick?