[Deck] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh) [Archive] - Page 11

wcm8

04-23-2012, 11:26 AM

This deck should never have a problem with burn. Just start countering their spells when you get around ten life. If they start burning your creatures, youve already won.

Mono-Red is no problem for the deck assuming you're running enough Spell Pierces (with Stifle it's quite a bit harder/closer, though still winnable). The problem is against UR Delver, which is running a similar counterspell configuration and is actually probably favored. UR can afford to burn your Delvers, and if they get a quick start it's rather difficult to race them especially since they can force a Price of Progress through your counter-wall.

As for beating UR, you definitely want to try to land an early Tarmogoyf and keep a hand that can handle a t1 Delver/Goblin Guide. In the SB, Hydroblast/Blue Elemental Blasts wouldn't be a bad idea if you're expecting to see a fair share of red decks. Try to play around Price of Progress as much as possible by not dropping too many duals or at least keep Daze and/or Wasteland ready. Remember that you can "fail to find" a dual land when you crack a fetch if you really need to shuffle.

Scordata

04-23-2012, 11:45 AM

wcm8

04-23-2012, 11:49 AM

Favored? Goyf > everything in their deck.

Save snare for POP. Stifle/waste helps keep daze relevant.. Stifle hits rift bolt, if they are running that. Just play the control game here - burn/counter their dudes, make them HAVE to burn your creatures, then send goyf in to clean up.

Goyf is only relevant if you get it early enough to defend/clock them. Playing him on turn 7 or whatever when you're already in single digits is usually too little, too late. You're not always going to curve out perfectly, and sometimes they might just have the counterspell for it. They also tend to play Submerge in the SB. Have you tested this matchup against a competent opponent with a decent list? It's no walk in the park. I'm not saying it's hugely favored for them, but it's definitely one of the harder matchups in my opinion.

Mark Sun

04-23-2012, 06:29 PM

I've personally been liking Rough//Tumble in the SB as a sweeper.

This is what I would be playing. If I had to play 4c, I'd probably go all in and change up some more things, including adding City of Brass to the deck. But that's a whole other animal.

Maverick mirrors locally have gotten too inbred, I'm back on RUG.

Koby

04-23-2012, 06:36 PM

Maverick mirrors locally have gotten too inbred, I'm back on RUG.

That being said, I took a list similar to Sherwin Pu's list and snuck into Top 8 at MTG Deal's cash tourney yesterday. Man it's fun running stifle-daggers on people's fetchlands >:D.

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Chain Lighnting
2 Forked Bolt
1 Sylvan Library

3 Daze
3 FoW
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle

4 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

SB
4 Submerge
1 Gilded Drake
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstomr
1 Pyroblast
1 Force of Will
2 Tormod'S Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction

Round 1 - Elves (2-1)
Round 2 - TES (0-2) ... FOW where art thou?
Round 3 - Canadian Threshold (2-1)
Round 4 - Maverick (2-1) *good G-d Submerge is OP*
Round 5 - Dredge (2-0)
Round 6 - ID
Top 8 - chop chop chop, play it out for camera matches just so the camera guys doesn't feel like he wasted 2 hours setting up.

best part of the day - people being surprised that I'm playing Islands instead of Savannahs. Misinformation FTW.

cheerios

04-23-2012, 07:36 PM

Mono-Red is no problem for the deck assuming you're running enough Spell Pierces (with Stifle it's quite a bit harder/closer, though still winnable). The problem is against UR Delver, which is running a similar counterspell configuration and is actually probably favored. UR can afford to burn your Delvers, and if they get a quick start it's rather difficult to race them especially since they can force a Price of Progress through your counter-wall.

As for beating UR, you definitely want to try to land an early Tarmogoyf and keep a hand that can handle a t1 Delver/Goblin Guide. In the SB, Hydroblast/Blue Elemental Blasts wouldn't be a bad idea if you're expecting to see a fair share of red decks. Try to play around Price of Progress as much as possible by not dropping too many duals or at least keep Daze and/or Wasteland ready. Remember that you can "fail to find" a dual land when you crack a fetch if you really need to shuffle.

What's your sideboarding plan vs UR delver? The deck goes off to fast when we don't answer their early delvers and goblin guide, but even after answering that, they can still land a grim lavamancer that will eat our delvers or turn into uncounterable burn in the late game. Seems like the best plan against them is to mull for a hand with Tarmogoyf and a few burn, but then again they also have main deck spell pierces if we attempt to burn their creatures early.

Ziveeman

04-23-2012, 08:49 PM

Holy crap, Koby has joined the dark side. Grats on the finish. I may be taking RUG to the Invitational in Indy if I end up going, but who knows? Avacyn Restored is gonna throw things for a loop.

Mark Sun

04-24-2012, 02:04 PM

Welcome to the club, Koby ^^

Now tell me... did you ever blind flip a Delver? Did it feel good?

Raggedjoe

04-24-2012, 02:46 PM

Gosh, I dunno what I was thinking guys. Those Perishes are really Submerges.

Vs UR Delver and Burn, I generally don't side board anything. We have really good matchups (especially with me playing 3 Pierces md),though I have considered bringing in Extraction over Forked Bolt.

ThomasDowd

04-24-2012, 03:16 PM

Holy crap, Koby has joined the dark side. Grats on the finish. I may be taking RUG to the Invitational in Indy if I end up going, but who knows? Avacyn Restored is gonna throw things for a loop.

I don't think much will change with avacyn restored personally but who knows.

the miracle decks are pretty slow and play some bad cards when they are not miracled.

The only one that is kind of scary is that wheel of fortune variant, but thankfully you can't float mana through the draw step and not all red rituals are instants.

oh I guess goblins becomes a thing again though, maybe?, with cavern of souls?

Koby

04-24-2012, 03:30 PM

Welcome to the club, Koby ^^

Now tell me... did you ever blind flip a Delver? Did it feel good?

It felt uber dirty, like I was playing a goddamn Standard deck. Nah, most of the time it whiffed on blind flips. I usually won with a thresh'd Goose after durdling around for a few turns. Also, Submerge is ridiculous.

Rekk

04-24-2012, 04:29 PM

Hey so thresh did really well in this event with a few changes:
http://manainfinito.com/articulos/legacy/listas-top8-lcl-2012-abril

1 green sun zenith with both cutting down on goyf.
1 sylvan which some people have been playing here as well.
and a few changes in the number of forked bolt and chain lightning.

do you guys thing this is correct (the cutting of the goyf)
since he is "king" of the mirror. also with the addition of gsz i think having 1 ooze in the 75 has to be correct.

Koby

04-25-2012, 02:17 AM

Short video of the finals from MTGDeals' Cash tournament on 4/22/12. RUG mirror finals.

Linky (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23486-MTG-Deals-Legacy-Tournament-Sunday-4.22.12&p=638536)

lordofthepit

04-25-2012, 06:02 AM

JeroenC

04-25-2012, 06:57 AM

Blitzbold

04-25-2012, 07:08 AM

How many people here have cut down to three forces MD? I have and so far I've really been liking it. Forcing more than twice over a game always seemed to hurt more than it really helped. I just keep the fourth one in my SB for the obvious matchups.

+1

My current counter suite consists of

4 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce

and I am liking it so far.

MD Pierce saves board space and are very nice to have in quite some Matchups. Maverick might be an exception since there aren't a lot of targets, but G1 we are an underdog here anyway if we don't draw into a very strong tempo package.

I am keeping the 4th Force in the board, though, in case I run into very fast combo.

Rekk

04-25-2012, 07:31 AM

I run 4 forces main at my local onllly because you can have a 3 round tourney there and face only storm dredge hightide. but when i go to other places to play 3 is absolutely what i prefer, as you said forcing twice feels awful.

Dzra

04-25-2012, 12:12 PM

4 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce

I was about to ask if anyone was running Spell Pierce and Stifles alongside each other or if the general consensus was that it was too much. It's good to see someone else is thinking it. I'm thinking that my counter suite is going to be like so...

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
3 Stifle

I could imagine dropping a Pierce to make Stifle or Daze into a 4-of though. I guess it depends on your meta, but I'm not a fan of only 3 Force. FoW is the best MD answer we have to a KotR and most of our conditional counters are easy to pitch by that point in the game. Also, even though Combo shouldn't be a problem with Pierce, there's a ton of it in my meta (of various kinds), so I'd rather not take the chance. What do people think of cutting a Goyf to make room for additional counters/burn (as opposed to dropping a Goyf for a GSZ)?

videogamer99

04-25-2012, 12:37 PM

So, I've been playing this deck at my local for the past 8 weeks. I've won 7 of 8. The tourneys are small. 7 to 13 players, some of which have casual decks. The players with the real decks I can just outplay or are favored Match Ups. Here is the list I am currently running:

Creatures (12)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

Spells (29)
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
3 Chain Lightning (formerly 2 Forked Bolt and a Green Sun's Zenith)
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare

Lands (19)
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga

Sideboard (15)
3 Surgical Extraction (formerly 2 Scavenging Ooze and 1 Surgical Extraction)
3 Submerge
3 Sulfur Elemental
2 Pyroblast
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ancient Grudge

The deck is really solid. Im gonna be taking it to the StarCityGames 5K in Columbus when that rolls around. Maybe the one in Michigan too. Great deck.

ajfennewald

04-25-2012, 01:24 PM

Anybody have any thoughts on my cross between blue zoo and thresh
8 fetch lands
3 volcanic island
3 tropical island
1 taiga
4 wasteland
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 force of will
3 daze
2 spell snare
3 stifle
4 chain lightning
4 lightning bolt
4 delver of secrets
3 nimble mongoose
3 kird ape
3 tarmogoyf
Sb
4 spell peirce
4 submerge
2 sulfuric vortex
2 ancient grudge
3 tormod’s crypt
The idea is a normal thresh deck with the aggresion ramped up slightly ( more burn and 7 creatures that are good on turn one)

straca3

04-25-2012, 02:46 PM

So I've tried the Drew Lewin's build and I dont know if it's because I'm used to play Stifle or Spell Pierce, but I didn't felt so powerful while playing that deck without the usual 4 Stifles, I'll be surely sticking with Stifle in future...

Also Kird Ape is terrible, don't play that.

Tombstalker

04-25-2012, 03:45 PM

The idea is a normal thresh deck with the aggresion ramped up slightly ( more burn and 7 creatures that are good on turn one)
I would max both goose and goyf before looking into any other creatures. Also without complete overload like zoo the ape is going to be very underwhelming, plus they run jittes and tons of burn/spot removal. If you want a more aggressive list than thresh id look at hanni's blue sligh or blue zoo itself (not a fan of this one, seems suboptimal to other decks its trying to emulate).

Blitzbold

04-26-2012, 03:28 AM

I could imagine dropping a Pierce to make Stifle or Daze into a 4-of though. I guess it depends on your meta, but I'm not a fan of only 3 Force. FoW is the best MD answer we have to a KotR and most of our conditional counters are easy to pitch by that point in the game.

Force as a 4-of obv. increases your chance to see one in your opening 7. I'd argue though that even when only playing 3 you'll draw into one in time when your tempo-oriented counters won't cut it anymore against Maverick. A possible scenario includes burning their first hierarch, stifling a fetch and / or wasting their first non-basic. All of this keeps Daze active for quite some time. KotR remains a 3-drop after all. You can race or burn every other thread they might deploy short of maybe Ooze. Mother of Runes + Scryb Ranger can also be a nuisance, but Mom can only grant protection for so long. Also, this is where Canadian's board begins to shine (if build properly for this MU).

Also, even though Combo shouldn't be a problem with Pierce, there's a ton of it in my meta (of various kinds), so I'd rather not take the chance.

Storm Combo is a good matchup on paper, but don't underestimate it's power in the hands of a skilled pilot. Many players won't take the time needed to learn their deck's nuances, though, so I guess there are quite some mediocre players taking Storm to a tournament only to shelf it away in disgust afterwards.

There are some very strong lists out there containing lots of cantrips, basics and Past in Flames on top which are quite difficult to beat. Remember that you still have to win in a reasonable amount of time if you survived it's first onslaught or after denying them their first 2 or 3 mana sources. For the reason of combo I'd definitely pack the 4th Force in the board. You'll need it.

What do people think of cutting a Goyf to make room for additional counters/burn (as opposed to dropping a Goyf for a GSZ)?

I am playing 11 creatures for quite some time and haven't looked back. 3 Goyfs are sufficient in my eyes.

So I've tried the Drew Lewin's build and I dont know if it's because I'm used to play Stifle or Spell Pierce, but I didn't felt so powerful while playing that deck without the usual 4 Stifles, I'll be surely sticking with Stifle in future...

Also Kird Ape is terrible, don't play that.

+1

I would max both goose and goyf before looking into any other creatures. Also without complete overload like zoo the ape is going to be very underwhelming, plus they run jittes and tons of burn/spot removal. If you want a more aggressive list than thresh id look at hanni's blue sligh or blue zoo itself (not a fan of this one, seems suboptimal to other decks its trying to emulate).

+1 again

Rekk

04-26-2012, 10:19 AM

I am playing 11 creatures for quite some time and haven't looked back. 3 Goyfs are sufficient in my eyes.

do you ever worry this is insufficient for the mirror? or do rephrase, do you feel like your a slight underdog in a mirror with an opponent running 4

atropos

04-26-2012, 11:11 AM

I was about to ask if anyone was running Spell Pierce and Stifles alongside each other or if the general consensus was that it was too much.

My only concern is with the amount of 1-drop counters you're probably going to only have mana open for either Stifle or Spell Pierce but not both. That's perhaps why it's an either/or debate. Just guessing though, best of luck with that configuration - let us know how it goes.

MiseEnScene

04-26-2012, 11:25 PM

Final Fortune

04-26-2012, 11:56 PM

Stephen Menendian has been hyping up his Delver + Temporal Mastery brews. I wouldn't exactly complain if someone decided to leak the lists from his set review.

https://twitter.com/#!/SMenendian/status/195622085962375169

The rational-minded skeptic in me is aware he's just full of himself, but the Big Foot hunter in me wants to know if it's real.

He's typically full of shit and ignorant of legacy from what I've read in the past, but from personal testing I just don't think you can abuse the conditional Time Walk without opening yourself up to being "out threated" by your lack of counters in RUG altho' it may find a home in U/r Delver.

Koby

04-27-2012, 12:05 AM

Menendian wrote,

Consider a simple sequence:

Turn One:
Land. Delver of Secrets.

Turn Two:
Land. End of turn, cast Brainstorm.

Turn Three:
Draw Temporal Mastery, and play it.

To which, we can all stop at Turn 2. Nothing of value is gained by putting Mastery in the sequence, because more often than not, the other tempo elements can be played for cheaper mana and greater effect.

I am not convinced that playing Temporal Mastery in CanThresh leads to more victories than without.

Mark Sun

04-27-2012, 12:48 AM

Menendian wrote,

To which, we can all stop at Turn 2. Nothing of value is gained by putting Mastery in the sequence, because more often than not, the other tempo elements can be played for cheaper mana and greater effect.

I am not convinced that playing Temporal Mastery in CanThresh leads to more victories than without.

At least we're not Personal Tutoring.

I get the interaction with Brainstorm in this deck, but focusing on resolving Temporal Mastery weakens the overall effect of Brainstorm, since you're using it as a setup tool, not a hand optimization tool in the late game. In the above scenario, if your Temporal Mastery gets Dazed, you're going to feel like an idiot while stranding awful cards in your hand.

wcm8

04-27-2012, 01:13 AM

I am dubious about Temporal Mastery in legacy, especially in a deck like this... However, Menedian brings up an interesting point regarding the card's utility over the course of a game, rather than just focusing on the opening hand argument. Suppose you get to cast two Temporal Masterys within the first '6' turns. You will have likey developed your board completely to an end-game state, whereas your opponent is still stuck on his 4th turn.

Running 4 FoW and 4 Brainstorm does make it less likely for the card to be completely stranded in your hand, and even if you have no board presence a free cycling effect is not the worst thing in the world.

FWIW I still don't think the card is worth including in an aggressive shell like RUG, but I could be wrong. I've tested a bit running 3 of them and the card never seemed particularly amazing. It vaguely reminds me of Snapcaster Mage in this regard -- definitely cool in other decks, but ultimately not worth the slots in RUG due to its clunkiness.

MiseEnScene

04-27-2012, 03:26 AM

While I agree the card is not good in Canadian Thresh and that Menendian is full of himself, I'm still curious enough to want to see his proposed list. His proposed "Cast Brainstorm at the end of the second turn" line alone is enough to make me want to disregard anything he has to say about the format, but I love to rubberneck a wreck from the highway.

Rekk

04-27-2012, 08:52 AM

hmmmmm
so him and john both said the same exact thing....
i wouldn't be surprised if he bought 1000 temporal masteries and is now thinking he needs to sell them
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23701-Premium-Article-Breaking-Temporal-Mastery-in-Legacy-SMIP-Eternal-Set-Review&p=639256#post639256

xfxf

04-27-2012, 09:16 AM

I listened to his Avacyn Restores set-review podcast and my understanding was that he was a little suspicious about Temporal Mastery having a strong effect on Legacy at the start of the conversation. Then the other guy (sorry, don't know who he is) went on and on about how insanely broken TM will be, infact he couldn't restrain himself and got back to the awesomness of TM after they started talking about Griselbrand. After that point I felt like Steven started agreeing with him and I assumed that he started sayin "yeah yeah I agree" just to hush him up and move on since this guy was overhyped and wouldn't accept any reasonable argument why TM would be just "normal".

If his article now says how broken TM will be and how awesome it'll be in RUG I'd say he is trying to manipulate the market.

Tombstalker

04-27-2012, 11:34 AM

TM isn't worth it and thresh is arguably one if the better existing decks to abuse it. I tested it pretty extensively and while it can occasionally win games when I had multiple creatures on the board its very easy to whiff with and takes valuable slots away from counter magic. The most common instance I encountered was having my TM blown out by wasteland or my own dazes in must counter situations giving them a timewalk of sorts haha. I want it to be good just not seeing it. Legacy itself is broken and extra turns just aren't as powerful as many of the cards and interactions already common to the format. I think IBA said it well in the shitsunami thread when he said legacy is harder to break then people think. The most broken cards are those that are convenient, which TM is not...or some such thing..all paraphrased since I'm on my phone too lazy to quote right now but it was a pretty well informed post I was impressed.

Nordvoll

04-29-2012, 07:50 AM

Hi all :)
What is you'r SB plan against Esperblade, Blade Control and Maverick?
And what is the strategy against Enchantress?

Pherion

04-29-2012, 08:47 AM

Hi all :)
What is you'r SB plan against Esperblade, Blade Control and Maverick?
And what is the strategy against Enchantress?

Sideboard options change based upon how you play the deck, but there are a lot of options to chose from. For Esper blade some of the best choices are Pyroblast, Red Elemental Blast, Sulfur Elemental, Pyroclasm. You replace your Force of Wills with Pyro/REB because they do basically the same thing in this match-up and are much more efficient. Force can generate really bad card advantage, and this is a match up where losing card advantage means losing the game.

For Maverick, you want to aim for serious hate cards. Submerge is probably your first choice. It generates tempo, can be hard removal when stacked on top of an opponents shuffle effect, and is ...... free :P Next up is Mind Harness, I like submerge better since the amount of land this deck runs makes harness a bit restrictive. But some people like it, and it's just a style thing. After that, you might want to consider Sulfur Elemental again. Being able to knock out Thalia and Mom is very powerful in this match up. Even as a 1/1 this card is usually worth it.

Enchantress is actually a pretty easy match-up if you know what you're doing. First off, the only thing (and I mean ONLY) worth countering is draw effects, and win conditions. This means your countering Argothian Enchantress, Enchantress's Presence, Words of War, and Sigil of the Empty Throne. If they can't draw cards incessantly, none of their other enchantments mean much. An Elephant Grass is cute, but it can only last for so long. Solitary Confinement cant even be played without a draw effect on the board. The rest of the deck is just enablers and mana ramp. Post board you need to watch out for Choke, but you should be keeping all of your FoW in the deck, so save one of that.

Good luck!

Nordvoll

04-29-2012, 08:55 AM

Thx Pherion for a very good answer! :)

Gunseng

05-03-2012, 05:11 AM

Einherjer

05-03-2012, 06:47 AM

There is hardly a "do that, do that, dont do that" guideline for this deck. You will simply get better when you play this deck versus competitive opponents. I am very far from being perfect with this deck but I recognized a large improvement from when I started playing this deck.

So the main-guideline is "Play"

Greetings

esqulax

05-03-2012, 08:36 AM

So it seems most people have dismissed TM for this deck, but am I the only one who has been considering Thounderous Wrath and Vanishment? (Vanishment is probably only if your meta is really light on combo)

They seem decent in theory, but that doesn't always mean much so I was just wondering if anybody has tested them and found wether or not they could actually be viable?

wcm8

05-03-2012, 09:48 AM

So I have decided to start playing Canadian. Are there any current primers/articles available for this deck? I have a hard time figuring out which hands are keepable, when to leaven mana open for stifle and how to sideboard.

An ideal hand has a mixture of counterspells, cantrips, 1-2 blue mana sources, and ideally a burn spell and a creature. You can't always expect to have 'god hands' with this deck, but you definitely want to be interacting on every turn in the early game. If your hand can't reasonably do -something- in the first couple turns, you may need to ship it back. Obvious mulligans are obvious (e.g. 5-6 lands with no Brainstorm, no lands at all, only a Wasteland, etc.) Daze is MUCH better on the play than the draw. Spell Snare is generally a nice card to open with as well.

I don't advocate playing Stifle personally, because it forces you to make plays based around something your opponent might or might not have/do. I fully understand that the card can be back-breaking at times (generally against weaker opponents), but Spell Pierce tends to be better all-purpose disruption.

If you know what your opponent is playing, there are some cards that you definitely want to look for in your opener. If he's on combo, you want some counterspells and a creature, or at least a Brainstorm/Ponder to find them in the first couple turns. You *need* to put them on a clock, so ideally it's not Nimble Mongoose since they can often rebuild their hand to a critical mass before you can kill them.

If your opponent is playing some sort of creature deck like Maverick or Goblins, you will want a burn spell and/or a Delver of Secrets/Tarmogoyf. Against these decks, you really want to kill their turn 1 Lackey/Mom/Hierarch or at least start to race early.

As for SBing, I am currently playing the following configuration:
4 Submerge
2 Rough//Tumble
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Ancient Grudge

I sometimes cut a card here or there to add in Life from the Loam and/or Pyro/REB, but lately these cards have not been necessarry.

hilariousjack

05-03-2012, 01:13 PM

I sometimes cut a card here or there to add in Life from the Loam and/or Pyro/REB, but lately these cards have not been necessarry.

Hi everyone, I'm pretty new to this deck and I can't figure out siding in Life from the Loam. I've seen it as a one-of in the sideboards for some decks, but I don't know when to side it in. What does it accomplish in this deck? Thanks!

Awaclus

05-03-2012, 01:48 PM

Hi everyone, I'm pretty new to this deck and I can't figure out siding in Life from the Loam. I've seen it as a one-of in the sideboards for some decks, but I don't know when to side it in. What does it accomplish in this deck? Thanks!
It's against nonbasic lands in general, I believe. It helps you against the opponent's Wastelands and makes your own Wastelands reusable while helping Mongoose and Tarmogoyf. I have personally no experience about it, though.

Rekk

05-03-2012, 07:00 PM

It's against nonbasic lands in general, I believe. It helps you against the opponent's Wastelands and makes your own Wastelands reusable while helping Mongoose and Tarmogoyf. I have personally no experience about it, though.

It's really there for the mirror in which both getting wasted and wastelanding your opponent are huge factors. Of course it has other uses (as in other wasteland decks) but i don't really bring it in against G/w

Rekk

05-03-2012, 07:08 PM

Vandalize

05-04-2012, 06:48 PM

Hey. I've been tuning a list for a while, and this is my lastest:

4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
2 Forked Bolt
1 Chain Lightning

SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Rough//Tumble
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Gilded Drake
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage

I've been trying to fit the 19th land, probably a Taiga or the 4th Volcanic. What should I cut? 1 Ponder? 1 Chain Lightning?

And should I cut 1 Goyf for a singleton GSZ, as some people seem to be doing?

rancOr_

05-04-2012, 07:52 PM

GSZ requires u too play ooze also ,otherwise its just not worth it . So I wouldnt bother playing that. However u can cut a goyf and go with 11 creatures, it works just fine.

illusivek

05-05-2012, 07:06 AM

Ooze doesn't really belong in Canadian. Yes, we run the colors, but GSZing for him is more mana than we usually have, for one thing, and if I had that much mana I'd much rather be casting Snapcaster Mage. The other problem with Ooze is that with those three lands, 2 should be Tropicals, which will leave you in a position to get wasted off of red in the lategame. Being forced to play the third land will make your Brainstorms significantly worse as well. I think the only time I would be playing GSZ is in a very control heavy meta, so I could play extra virtual copies of Mongoose, and blank snares when necessary.

rancOr_

05-05-2012, 08:08 AM

I fully agree thats why I said not to play ooze and if u want a 19th land cut a goyf:) works fine for me.

Maagler

05-07-2012, 10:49 AM

Hey, played this list to a 6-3 record yesterday at starcity ending up 29th.

Maindeck:

Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf

Enchantments
1 Sylvan Library

Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
1 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

Sorceries
1 Chain Lightning
4 Ponder
2 Temporal Mastery

Lands
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Krosan Grip
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction

I lost to Merfolk with chalice, UB Plainswalker Stax, and Tempothresh with life from the loam and savaging ooze in the last round. (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/round_9_andrew_maag_vs_james_v.html)

I won against: 2x elves with and without cavern of souls, 1 rug delver, 1 UR tempo, Sneak and show, and Hivemind.

The temporal mastery were never really bad, at worst they turned into cycle or a pitch to force of will. There were a couple games that it allowed me to win by giving me an extra combat phase.

Sturtzilla

05-07-2012, 12:41 PM

Maagler

05-07-2012, 04:32 PM

@ Maagler

Was the one-of Dismember ever relevant? Seems less than optimal to me. Also, it seems that with this configuration, it could be a bit harder than traditional lists to get Sorceries into the graveyard for threshold and for Tarmogoyf. This could be due to fooling around with Temporal Mastery and less copies of Chain Lightning and/or Forked Bolt. Was that ever an issue? How did you like your sideboard? Would you change anything there?

The dismember was not really relevant, every time I played it, it could have been another chain lightning and it probably would have been better. I did not seem to have much of a problem beefing up goyfs with a little help from my opponents, but then again I only ran 3 tarmogoyfs.

I liked the side for the most part; the only card I never sided in was sulfuric vortex. I think that all the cards in the side had potential to be useful, but I just didn't see any stoneblade like I expected. I think I might have wanted ancient grudge in the side rather then krosan grip, because I played again merfolk with chalice and the UB stax, which both dropped chalice at 1 against me.

In the game I played against James, he got way ahead with the savaging ooze, I really liked that addition to the side, swinging the tempo matches in oozes favor.

My thoughts on forked bolt are mixed. I really like it against Maverick but I would prefer chain lightning in most cases because of the reach that it gives the deck.

in the end I would probably change the list a bit:

-1 dismember
+1 chain lightning

side;
-2 sulfuric vortex
+2 scavenging Ooooooooozzze

illusivek

05-07-2012, 04:46 PM

The "traditional lists" ran 4 Ponder for sorceries.

Maagler

05-07-2012, 08:01 PM

The "traditional lists" ran 4 Ponder for sorceries.

I had 4 ponders as well.

Shimster

05-08-2012, 04:12 AM

I finished 7th out of 40 with this list: http://deck.tk/15m19QZx

2-0 Rb Goblins
1-2 BUG Control
2-0 MUD
2-1 Welder MUD
2-1 UR Delver
0-2 GWr Maverick

The match against BUG was really close and I lost because I wasn't able to apply any pressure during the first game.

I didn't stand a chance against Maverick. This could be based on my lack of experience in this MU (got blown out of the 2nd game by Choke), as well as a lack of Forked Bolts and/or better SB cards than Submerge.

I really liked the threat base (1 GSZ is amazing, even without Oozes), but I was dissapointed with Pillar of Flame. Though they're really good against Nic Fit (popular deck in my metagame), they aren't better than Chain Lightning or Forked Bolt.

Fanne

05-08-2012, 07:42 AM

Was it in Bochum?

Got 13th or so there.
I have played against 3 Mavericks there and one Nic Fit. And i figured the following: Rough // Tumble should be in your SB period. To good to not play it. Even helps you against those 22 Basic Lands aggro Decks or combo elves. And forked Bolt was really amazing. (Not only against Maverick) Also i would recommend 2 Dismember to you, as thex are pretty good against Knight, Ooze, Goyfs and stuff

Mark Sun

05-08-2012, 04:09 PM

And i figured the following: Rough // Tumble should be in your SB period.

Agree. I went out and acquired copies over the weekend.

Also saw one list with Cursed Totem in it. Does well against Maverick (Linvala effect, pretty much), but I think I'd have to cut Sulfur Elementals if I wanted to add them in, which I probably won't do.

catmint

05-08-2012, 05:01 PM

What makes rough so good? ...dont get it.

Koby

05-08-2012, 05:12 PM

What makes rough so good? ...dont get it.

Kills nothing in your deck, and everything but Knight/grown Ooze from theirs.

(Deal 2 damage to each NON-FLYING creature.)

wcm8

05-08-2012, 11:43 PM

Yep, against a lot of decks it functions as a one-sided Wrath of God. I think you should be playing a minimum of 2 copies in the SB right now, and possibly bump up to 3 or even 4 if your metagame warrants it. People will be itching to play Cavern of Souls, and the majority of these decks will be susceptible to it. It helps crush Goblins, Elves, Maverick, Death and Taxes, Deadguy, and other random jank. As good as Submerge is, there are a lot of aggro decks where youll need the extra help and/or they're not playing Forests.

There are a *few* decks where Pyroclasm is better (e.g. affinity, fairies) but most of the time Rough's ground limitation doesn't matter AND not killing your Delver is frequently relevant.

A++ card

Fanne

05-09-2012, 02:45 AM

And Shimster why do you play Pillar of Flame and not Magma Spray?
I Think for a local Box Tourney i swap the Forked Bolts against Sprays and maybe play a third copy in my side. But not Sure about it.

Anyway Here is my Decklist:

Maindeck:

Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

Sorceries
4 Ponder
2 Forked Bolt or 2 Magma Spray

Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Rough // Tumble
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction

Im not sure about the Sideboard right now. Im argueing with myself if i want the one-of Grudge or 4 Submerge. Also im not that sure about the Crypts as i have never played with them.

(Explanation: Decks i know that will be played: U/W Terminus Blade Control, 2 Nic Fit, U/R Burn, Mono Blue Jace Stompy Control "I crush Canadian" Deck, Maverick)
Any suggestions?

atropos

05-09-2012, 03:35 AM

And Shimster why do you play Pillar of Flame and not Magma Spray?

What's the advantage of playing either one? Is there some creature that you absolutely must RFG? Are you afraid of someone Reanimateing a Snapcaster Mage or something? Doesn't Forked Bolt give you flexibility and Chain Lightning give you reach?

Fanne

05-09-2012, 03:44 AM

The advantage is that you simply remove Verdant Explorer, because Nic Fit is pretty Huge in my meta, and i think Shimster was at the same event i was.

40 Players and round about 6 Nic Fits

Shimster

05-09-2012, 03:49 AM

@ Fanne: Yes, it was in Bochum. :laugh:

Pillar of Flame is far better than Magma Spray (at least in my opinion) because it isn't that dead in non-creature MUs. There have been games (e.g. against BUG control) that I wouldn't have won without being able to aim two damage to the dome.

Regarding Rough//Tumble: Is Grim Lavamancer a valid SB option? It's worse in certain situations (like Maverick going manadork, into mana dork + MOR), but a lot more lasting.

@ atropos: There is a line in my last post, on the last page. Nic Fit is a popular deck in Germany (as is Maverick), thus I tested Pillar of Flame. It didn't end up being good enough, so I won't play it again.

catmint

05-09-2012, 04:47 AM

Kills nothing in your deck, and everything but Knight/grown Ooze from theirs.

(Deal 2 damage to each NON-FLYING creature.)

I got the non-flying part. My thoughts are only concerning the maverick matchup. All the little dudes have to be killed immediately anway and you can only get a 2:1 very rarely.

- Thalia is a big problem: you have to kill it immediately and can't wait for a 2:1. Killing it costs 3 mana now *ouch*

- Not killing mana dudes immediately is often wrong since it is antisynergistic with the manadenial plan. Giving them 1 activation from a mana accel can be enough for them to stabalize in time.

- Not killing mother seems wrong since she can protect herself or at least one other creature from dying to rough.

- Scryb ranger is a big problem and not touched by rough (also not by submerge or sulfur elemental, so not relevant in the direct comparson) - just pointing out.

To hope rough kills an ooze or a knight is a bit optimistic.

Sure rough has applications against other decks like elves, D&T, Team Italia, Merfolk, Goblins, but I don't feel bad with my 6-7 burn spells MD tempo plan against those decks and rather optimize my SB spots against the #1 super popular Tier Deck to Beat, which is a very hard matchup: Maverick.

Submerge is set as a 4of for me and as a random 1 of I rather play Sulfur Elemental since it has the biggest upside against mother/thalia and is also sick against the also very popular lingering souls. Getting a 3/2 body out of the deal is a guaranteed 2:1 and a possible 3:1, which you can only hope for with Rough.

atropos

05-09-2012, 12:10 PM

The advantage is that you simply remove Verdant Explorer, because Nic Fit is pretty Huge in my meta, and i think Shimster was at the same event i was.

40 Players and round about 6 Nic Fits

@ atropos: There is a line in my last post, on the last page. Nic Fit is a popular deck in Germany (as is Maverick), thus I tested Pillar of Flame. It didn't end up being good enough, so I won't play it again.

My apologies, I just couldn't conceive of any reason why that card would be played. It makes sense though and I can imagine how that would improve the Nic Fit matchup considerably.

illusivek

05-12-2012, 08:30 PM

is grave hate even worth playing? or are the 4 slots better used to solidify everything else.

Rekk

05-13-2012, 02:11 PM

To be honest you could try some number of echoing truths along side 2 oozes.

Fanne

05-15-2012, 02:47 AM

I have encountert some serious Problem with the Deck, or better a really tough and in my experience nearly unwinable matchup.

U/W Countertop with Terminus and Entreat the Angels. The only thing i have thought could hel is Krosans Grip against Counterbalance and Echoing truth against the Tokens.

What i have encountert right now is that echoing truth really starts a counterwar which nearly every time is in their favour because thex have nearly the same counterlineup except they dont play stifle and daze (but Counterspell and some play pierce main) and of course Snapcaster which gives me some serious trouble.

catmint

05-15-2012, 04:28 AM

Not sure if Krosan Grip is good enough. It's pretty narrow and we already have answers for counterbalance in the form of countering it with spell pierce & redblast.

I think Terminus is a much bigger issue! Best answer for that next to FoW/Stilfe coming to my mind is Remand! It is at least also useful in other matchups.

Still, if counterbalance-terminus becomes very popular I would just stop playing RUG....The Matchup will never be good!

Borealis

05-16-2012, 04:16 PM

chags

05-16-2012, 05:20 PM

WTF is MonoBlueJaceStompy "destroyRugDelver" Control??? Decklist please.

Anyway, I'm just getting back into playing RUG Delver, or Thresh if you must. For a starting comment, I will say that Rough/Tumble is cute, but Sulfur Elemental is a higher impact card when you really want that kind of effect. If you meta is loaded with fast Aggro decks I can maybe see wanting a Pyroclasm effect, but otherwise I don't think it's as justifiable.

I don't play this deck so maybe I'm wrong but wouldn't firespout or volcanic fallout be better options then rough//tumble? Sure both options kill your delvers but with the presence of lingering souls wouldn't you want a sweeper that can hit fliers? Sulfur elemental is great as an answer to lingering souls and mother of runes but unless you run forked bolt or lavamancer I'd also want a way to kill maverick's mana dorks. Keeping them off KoTR for as long as possible seems important.

Sturtzilla

05-16-2012, 09:16 PM

This is my first post in this thread! Woohoo! I just finished my RUG Tempo list. I have been pretty happy with the results thus far. I have been running two Sulfur Elemental in the board and two Forked Bolt in the main. This has worked favorably for me thus far.

WTF is MonoBlueJaceStompy "destroyRugDelver" Control??? Decklist please.

I would like to know about this as well.

Fanne

05-18-2012, 03:20 AM

Sturtzilla

05-18-2012, 02:00 PM

stuff

Always good to include in a tuned legacy deck. That list seems really loose to me. Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere are both rough to play through. Spell Snare is pretty legit at stopping Chalices, providing your opponent doesn't know that he/she can pay 1 and 2 and sneak it in at 1. This then makes your Dazes and Spell Pierces better. I haven't had too much experience playing against a resolved Trinisphere. I bet that would not be fun though.

Sarterus

05-18-2012, 04:49 PM

I think Terminus is a much bigger issue! Best answer for that next to FoW/Stilfe coming to my mind is Remand! It is at least also useful in other matchups.

Still, if counterbalance-terminus becomes very popular I would just stop playing RUG....The Matchup will never be good!

Stifle is amazing against Terminus!

Counterbalance is a tough match up but I am seeing a lot less people playing it recently. Although you can run a counterbalance sideboard with RUG Tempo the way Kenny Castor in Indianapolis. I have play tested this with little success I prefer a more directed answers in my sideboard.

Pherion

05-18-2012, 05:24 PM

I'm not sure we should be so scared of the Terminus/Thopter Combo deck. It's a challenging match-up, but I wouldn't say we're the underdog in it. I played against two nights ago, and it wasn't all that bad. I got hit with Terminus twice, and once it gave him the time to stabalize and get the thopter online. Game three he landed a counterbalance, and I was completely confused since the deck doesn't really run enough one drops to make counterbalance all that good againsed me. I even took a look at his graveyard at one point to see how many 1 CMCs were in it and risked a blind flip for Pyroblast to kill Jace. Guess who didn't flip a 1 cmc... probably because there's only 12 or so in the deck! lol

Anyway, I just don't see it being a bad matchup. I guess you guys are seeing it differnetly. Can you give some more specific situations that are coming up and making it dificult. Maybe we can address lines of play that will increase your chances.

Taurelin

05-19-2012, 04:39 AM

stopping Chalices, providing your opponent doesn't know that he/she can pay 1 and 2 and sneak it in at 1.

Sorry, but what exactly are you suggesting here?

You can't choose two different values for X as you cast Chalice. And if you choose X=1, the CMC is 2, so it can be hit by Spell Snare.

useL

05-20-2012, 12:56 AM

wcm8

05-20-2012, 07:59 AM

Against ANT I really felt I had a bad sideboard plan.

ANT seems like a generally favorable matchup with all of the counter magic that RUG plays, and Wasteland can slow them down as well. You just need to get a creature out early, because otherwise they can play draw-go until they have enough gas to go off through your counter-wall. I'm not sure if there's anything I would want to put in the SB specifically for this matchup. You can bring in some graveyard hate to prevent IGG or Past in Flames shenanigans, and Red Blasts hit their cantrips at least.

cheerios

05-20-2012, 09:39 AM

Has anyone here tried removing artifact hate (ancient grudge) from the sideboard?

Borealis

05-21-2012, 11:30 AM

Cant give you the exact list but here is a rough overview:

4 chalice of the Void
4 trinisphere
4ancient tomb
4city of traitors
2-3 jace
2 jitte
2 crafted wargear
serndib efreet
fettergeist
counterspells
stuff

While a finished version of this deck could certainly be a scary pain in the ass to play against, I don't think it's something we should really be concerned with. Stompy decks are out there, always will be, but the chances of running into them more than once a tournament are slim, unless they start putting up real numbers on the competitive scene. Just be ready to counter their turn 1 Chalice and the match should at least be a fair one. Also, Grafted Wargear seems pretty terrible.

useL, why only 3 Tarmogoyfs? I kinda have to agree with Drew Levin's recommendation that you never drop below 12 creatures in this deck (except for maybe in extremely rare SB games). I'd cut the 4th Force, Daze, or Red Sorcery long before I sliced the 4th Goyf. Hell, I'm still tempted to squeeze in a singleton Snapcaster or some other worthy 13th animal just to make sure I can provide pressure in every game. This deck lives on spells but still desperately needs to hit a dude: I'd rather draw the first Goyf than the 8th spell in a given game.

My roomate is building the Miracle/CounterTop deck. He tells me it's good against RUG, but only testing will truly answer that question properly. One thing is certain, if the deck gains popularity and success than Thought Scour will certainly be going up in value for us. I'll have more valuable input after a round of testing tonight.

Fossil4182

05-21-2012, 11:48 AM

I played at the Legacy Dip Tournament at the Grand Prix Malmo yesterday. Here is my list:

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Spell Snare
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Ponder
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
2 Forked Bolt
2 Thought Scour
2 Chain Lightning
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge

I felt that I needed more Forked Bolt (thinking of cutting to 1 Chain Lightning). Against ANT I really felt I had a bad sideboard plan.

I played against in this order: Team Italia, RUG (he ran dismember and fewer submerge), Elfball combo, ANT(white splash), Sneak & Show.

I really dont have time to write a report right now, but I can take questions if you are wondering something.

Post board against UBw ANT, you have between 2-4 slots in your main deck that you could reasonably side out. 2 Forked Bolt and 2 Chain Lightning. Even as constructed, your matchup against UBw ANT seems favorable. Boarding out the aforementioned burn for 2 Pyroblast and 2 Flusterstorm seems like a winning move. That particular version of ANT is annoying because the Chant effects can shut you out if they resolve. Some tips on helping in this match up:

*Keep a blue untapped if you can afford it to bluff a Spell Pierce or Fluster Storm. Storm players (good ones at least), will always be keeping an eye on your mana base to track your counter magic.

*If you tapping on your turn for Ponder or Brainstorm, tap using the Tropical Island leaving the Volcanic Island untapped. The red mana signals a potential lightning bolt or Pyroblast which are live cards against ANT.

*Wasteland when possible. Mana denial is one of the better strategies especially since your counter magic consists of mostly taxing counters.

*Early pressure is key; Delver is probably your best bet since it will come on line quicker than your other options. Even Tarmogoyf may not outgrow Delver because the combined graveyards will probably only have land, instant and sorcery in them (artifact is possible, but only if you counter a Lion's Eye Diamond and/or the ANT player whiffs).

*Keeping a hand with all counter magic and no threats may feel safe but its rather risky. Storm players are expecting RUG players to do that. The reality is that Storm can usually dig faster for answers (minimum of 8 cantrips, but probably between 11-12 along with tutors) and they run between 7-9 disruption spells. ANT will wear your hand down quickly, but running a threat out early cuts down their options. Fetching becomes more difficulty, Grim Tutor and ANT become way less potent as options.

*Hitting a cantrip can be devastating against ANT in particular. ANT almost always cantrips to dig for something (acceleration, tutor, or protection/disruption). Denying the ANT access to whatever they are looking for can slow them down by at least a turn and can punish them for keeping a greedy hand. Be wise about this and don't run out your only counter against their cantrip, but it can still be a rather effective strategy.

All of these are situational of course, but are decent ways to start thinking about the match up.

The last thing I'll say on this is the theory of Delver Tempo is the same as it was back when it was Canadian Threshold; play a low casting efficient threat and disrupt the opponent enough to ride it to victory. Tempo decks such as Delver RUG rely on your ability to out play your opponent more so than top decking a bomb FTW. To be candid, very few match ups against tier 1 - 1.5 decks should ever feel like a lock because the deck isn't meant to create dominating board states. Its designed to create favorable board states that allow you to win through skill rather than power. Your sideboard is an extension of this. Kotter's recent article talks about the difference between side boarding to blow out a particular match up or tweaking a your deck to make the matchup just a bit more favorable. RUG Tempo's side boarding plan is almost always to tweak rather than to blow out.

catmint

05-21-2012, 11:59 AM

I don't see were Thought Scour would be good against Miracle cards. Randomly casting it after an EOT Brainstorm seems bad since it might even help them and I am sure there are better things to do for 1 mana. Also Counter-Top decks have Top to set the miracle up and can just rearrange the top3 in response to Thought Scour.

The matchup is surely bad if the lists are more tuned and the pilots have more experience/skill. Red blast, Spell Pierce, Stifle and FoW have to carry a lot of weight and the early threat is key. I would love to see a lot of Terminus control decks to see if Remand is playable. :laugh:

Borealis

05-21-2012, 12:38 PM

When I mentioned Thought Scour, I was thinking that you would have a chance to respond to the trigger, like with Delver in the mirror. Upon researching the mechanic, it became clear that you can't do that against Miracle, which makes sense since they are already drawing the card at that point. I'll still need to check up on that, but point is, Thought Scour is less good if you can't mill away their Terminus in response.

However, I think it still can be a valuable play if you hit it at the right time. Yet another measure of playskill with the deck, but reading your opponent for what they have on top and playing accordingly is certainly going to matter. If you think they just spent a turn trying to stack the Terminus or Entreat the Angels, and they DON'T have an active top in play, I think there is very little to lose in Though Scouring them (assuming you don't have a better play with it). Certainly if they can just rearrange the cards again, don't bother. Ideally we don't let them resolve SDT, but it's obviously going to happen. In that case play accordingly. Thought Scour is probably not going to be as valuable as I originally thought, but it's not to be overlooked either. Every little edge counts with this deck.

Remand seems slightly narrow, since it will still be less than ideal against the Mirror, Maverick, and any number of other low-curved decks. And even if you remand their Miracle card, they can just Brainstorm or Jace it back for value later in the game anyway...

Final Ritual

05-21-2012, 03:00 PM

I finished in 10th yesterday but SCG decided to omitt my list AGAIN. I would have said Delver made up of a 1/4 of the field yesterday. A lot of inexperienced pilots playing thresh and I saw many people donk it up. I'll write up a tournement report in a few days.

xfxf

05-21-2012, 03:10 PM

The matchup is surely bad if the lists are more tuned and the pilots have more experience/skill. Red blast, Spell Pierce, Stifle and FoW have to carry a lot of weight and the early threat is key. I would love to see a lot of Terminus control decks to see if Remand is playable. :laugh:

But I understand Stifle shines against those Entreats/Teminusus (how do you write this in plural?) when they put actual work into setting it up.

ThomasDowd

05-21-2012, 04:41 PM

But I understand Stifle shines against those Entreats/Teminusus (how do you write this in plural?) when they put actual work into setting it up.

so you will pay a blue and discard a card, so they can set it up again? what a great deal.

it only stifles the miracle cost, it doesn't actually stop them from casting the card, just getting the discount.

so I wouldn't use shine here. I think I would say glow dimly.

catmint

05-21-2012, 04:54 PM

I would use the word "shine" for stifle vs. Terminus... If we cannot finish the job or find more disruption until they set Terminus up again or cast it for 6 mana we deserve to loose.

Borealis

05-21-2012, 05:20 PM

Disagree catmint. You yourself pointed out how bad it would be to try and Scour away potential Miracles when they can just set it up again. Same can be said with Stifle. They (should) run 8 Brainstorm effects in the deck, which means they can still easily stack it for you a turn or so later. Or just hardcast it. Both options put you down a card, not mention the CA they get from wiping your board or putting a couple Angels into play.

Stifling their Miracle is only really good when you have them down to a 1-2 turn clock. Otherwise you're just losing cards in a deck that has no card advantage. I'm solidly in the "Spell Pierce is just Better than Stifle right now" camp.

catmint

05-21-2012, 05:27 PM

Thoughtscour is bad vs. top and because you have to do it on speculation.
If you stifle the trigger, sure they are able to set it up again with Brainstorm. However, Snapcaster into Brainstorm or Jace should not happen that easily. I am not saying Stifle is the nuts vs. miracles but it's something and it is a powerful card that "belongs" in RUG anyway. Please no dogma discussion Stifle vs. Pierce again. Nuff good stuff said already.

xfxf

05-21-2012, 06:15 PM

I don't know if you have tested the UW Countertop lists as of late. I played some games against my RUG build and what I saw was that the deck didn't have that many ways of putting back a Terminus on top the deck. It has 4 Brainstorms and 3 Jace and that's it, but if they resolved a Jace already things should be looking grim anyway.

Without the Jace on board, when you stifle a Miracle trigger, UW player is stuck with a 6 mana wrath and desperately looking for a Brainstorm to put it back on top or trying to draw lands to hardcast it. This plays well into the tempo plan because while they are busy with the Top manipulations to set it up again you are chipping away from their life total.

Edit: I'm using stifle + pierce and no snares since I figured anything I can hit with snare I can hit with pierce or the extra burn I have, with only exclusion being Tarmogoyf. I haven't played the mirror yet but for other match-ups I feel better with this configuration.

ThomasDowd

05-21-2012, 08:26 PM

with only exclusion being Tarmogoyf.

Which is one of the most important cards in the mirror.

JJ-JKidd

05-21-2012, 10:14 PM

Post board against UBw ANT, you have between 2-4 slots in your main deck that you could reasonably side out. 2 Forked Bolt and 2 Chain Lightning. Even as constructed, your matchup against UBw ANT seems favorable. Boarding out the aforementioned burn for 2 Pyroblast and 2 Flusterstorm seems like a winning move. That particular version of ANT is annoying because the Chant effects can shut you out if they resolve. Some tips on helping in this match up:

*Keep a blue untapped if you can afford it to bluff a Spell Pierce or Fluster Storm. Storm players (good ones at least), will always be keeping an eye on your mana base to track your counter magic.

*If you tapping on your turn for Ponder or Brainstorm, tap using the Tropical Island leaving the Volcanic Island untapped. The red mana signals a potential lightning bolt or Pyroblast which are live cards against ANT.

*Wasteland when possible. Mana denial is one of the better strategies especially since your counter magic consists of mostly taxing counters.

*Early pressure is key; Delver is probably your best bet since it will come on line quicker than your other options. Even Tarmogoyf may not outgrow Delver because the combined graveyards will probably only have land, instant and sorcery in them (artifact is possible, but only if you counter a Lion's Eye Diamond and/or the ANT player whiffs).

*Keeping a hand with all counter magic and no threats may feel safe but its rather risky. Storm players are expecting RUG players to do that. The reality is that Storm can usually dig faster for answers (minimum of 8 cantrips, but probably between 11-12 along with tutors) and they run between 7-9 disruption spells. ANT will wear your hand down quickly, but running a threat out early cuts down their options. Fetching becomes more difficulty, Grim Tutor and ANT become way less potent as options.

*Hitting a cantrip can be devastating against ANT in particular. ANT almost always cantrips to dig for something (acceleration, tutor, or protection/disruption). Denying the ANT access to whatever they are looking for can slow them down by at least a turn and can punish them for keeping a greedy hand. Be wise about this and don't run out your only counter against their cantrip, but it can still be a rather effective strategy.

All of these are situational of course, but are decent ways to start thinking about the match up.

The last thing I'll say on this is the theory of Delver Tempo is the same as it was back when it was Canadian Threshold; play a low casting efficient threat and disrupt the opponent enough to ride it to victory. Tempo decks such as Delver RUG rely on your ability to out play your opponent more so than top decking a bomb FTW. To be candid, very few match ups against tier 1 - 1.5 decks should ever feel like a lock because the deck isn't meant to create dominating board states. Its designed to create favorable board states that allow you to win through skill rather than power. Your sideboard is an extension of this. Kotter's recent article talks about the difference between side boarding to blow out a particular match up or tweaking a your deck to make the matchup just a bit more favorable. RUG Tempo's side boarding plan is almost always to tweak rather than to blow out.

I had a first hand experience with this. I knew beforehand I was playing UBr ANT, I had cantrips and counters (I run Pierces over Stifles btw) in my first 7 but no 1-drop or even a Goyf and he just "cantripped" his way for 5 or 6 turns into Discard spells and eventually the kill while I failed to find a single body to beat him down during those first 5 or 6 turns.

GOD :eek:

Awaclus

05-22-2012, 12:47 AM

But I understand Stifle shines against those Entreats/Teminusus (how do you write this in plural?) when they put actual work into setting it up.
It's "termini" in plural.

I don't think Terminus is a huge problem for us. Most of the time, it'll just be a sorcery-speed StoP without the life gain for us, especially when we know we're playing against a deck with them. If an opponent sets it up after it has been Stifled, he is either a bad player or in a losing situation with no other outs.

Entreat the Angels is the real problem here in my opinion. Spell Pierce is obviously better against it, but a Stifled fetchland in the early game also makes Entreat less powerful.

I'm going to keep playing Stifle and Snare maindeck, and siding the Snares out for Pierces when I face a miracle control deck.

Borealis

05-22-2012, 01:05 AM

Based on my brief experience at our $5 Monday night legacy league tourney, I'm feeling pretty good about switching back to Delver. I went 3-0-1 against Scapeshift Lands, U/W miracle top, Elves! (the draw), and Sneaky Show. And I'm not saying this is gospel, but milling away a flipped top and Entreat the Angels with Thought Scour was more than enough to prove its worth in that match. I will agree that stifling a miracle trigger is also very effective and probably more reliable, but cantripping is very valuable in this deck. I'm not going to suddenly start running more thought scours or anything, but the point is it is definitely very relevant in the miracle/top matchup.

I did overextend into a Top'ed Terminus last night, played out a second 3/3 Goose on a board of Goose/Goyf. Completely unnecessary and I got punished for it. Don't do that.

EDIT: On the combo match: Keeping hands with no pressure. I can see why you would want to mulligan certain hands with absolutely no action against combo, but some of those hands I think you still have to keep. If you have, say 3-4 disruption spells and a ponder or brainstorm, I think it's actually okay to try that vs. combo. If it's ANT, keeping a hand with disruption and a Lightning Bolt is also somewhat acceptable in my book. Sure, you might not hit a threat soon enough, but I think your odds of drawing a good hand with both threats and enough disruption drop significantly after mulling. You really want to be holding at least a spell pierce and some combination of fow/daze/REB in your opener in my opinion. In general, if the mana is good and I have spells and cantrips in my opener, I'd be loathe to throw it away, even against combo.

In reference to this, my game 3 against Sneak/Show was pretty funny actually. I had a good suite of counters and ponders on 7, and a Wasteland I think. We had an early counter war over his first Sneak Attack, and then went back to draw-go. 10 or so turns later, and I'm sitting on double REB, double FOW, Daze, Spell Pierce, and all I can hit is more cantrips and counterspells. Finally, I pondered into Goyf/Delver on like turn 12. He tried to resolve a Firespout but there was no getting through my hand of counters.

Obviously, that's not how it's always going to work when you can't find a creature. But it worked out pretty well for me last night anyway. I can't say it would have been so good if I had mulliganed away all those counterspells in my opener.

Fossil4182

05-22-2012, 11:18 AM

EDIT: On the combo match: Keeping hands with no pressure. I can see why you would want to mulligan certain hands with absolutely no action against combo, but some of those hands I think you still have to keep. If you have, say 3-4 disruption spells and a ponder or brainstorm, I think it's actually okay to try that vs. combo. If it's ANT, keeping a hand with disruption and a Lightning Bolt is also somewhat acceptable in my book. Sure, you might not hit a threat soon enough, but I think your odds of drawing a good hand with both threats and enough disruption drop significantly after mulling. You really want to be holding at least a spell pierce and some combination of fow/daze/REB in your opener in my opinion. In general, if the mana is good and I have spells and cantrips in my opener, I'd be loathe to throw it away, even against combo.

In reference to this, my game 3 against Sneak/Show was pretty funny actually. I had a good suite of counters and ponders on 7, and a Wasteland I think. We had an early counter war over his first Sneak Attack, and then went back to draw-go. 10 or so turns later, and I'm sitting on double REB, double FOW, Daze, Spell Pierce, and all I can hit is more cantrips and counterspells. Finally, I pondered into Goyf/Delver on like turn 12. He tried to resolve a Firespout but there was no getting through my hand of counters.

Obviously, that's not how it's always going to work when you can't find a creature. But it worked out pretty well for me last night anyway. I can't say it would have been so good if I had mulliganed away all those counterspells in my opener.

Even with a hand that includes 3-4 counter magic cards, I'm not convinced its a great idea. Even an idea situation where your opening seven is Land, Land, Force of Will, Force of Will, Cantrip, Cantrip, Spell Pierce its ill advised to do anything. Using your cantrips means you lose cards to pitch to Force of Will which negates the security of the hand. In the mean time, the ANT player will dig for discard or enough pieces to power through the protection. If you decide to use the cantrips to sculpt a better hand, you probably should of taken a mulligan. The use of Chant effects can also negate the advantage of keeping a hand with lots of disruption. For example, an opener of Daze, Spell Snare x2, two lands, and two cantrips goes to hell rather quickly if the ANT player casts Chant and pays the extra mana for Daze.

I played ANT for the past 1.5 years exclusively at every Legacy event I participated in. I've beaten control and tempo players that keep hands with no pressure and up to three hard counters without worry. Sure, there have been times when they get there keeping those hands, but it was almost always because they top decked a threat within the first or second draw step. Digging for answers is almost never the correct line of play against this match up as the early threat cuts down ANT's options. ANT, more so than most decks, actually uses life as a resource via the fetching, Ad Nauseam, and Grim Tutor. Whittling down their life total means the ANT player has less lines of play and outs. The take away for this for RUG players is that you need to treat these combo decks (and Show and Tell decks as well) as if they have an inevitable win (which they do). Therefore, stalling out the game with a disruption heavy hand with no threats isn't going to work. You need a balanced hand that can put pressure on them early and disrupt their game plan.

Borealis

05-22-2012, 02:06 PM

I agree for the most part, but I'm not talking about keeping hands like the above you mentioned. Spell Snare in particular seems pretty awful to lean on as a major player against combo, I actually sided them out against Sneak/Show for Submerges. (Pitches to Force and can actually be relevant after turn 5-6 if you manage to disrupt them, unlike Snare which was completely dead.) I believe my game 3 opener against Sneak/Show last night was Pyroblast, Pierce, FoW, Ponder, Bolt, land, land. I think. It's not that relevant because it was basically a god-hand minus the pressure, and all I drew for the rest of the game was the best counterspells and multiple Wastelands until finally hitting pressure. But if any of those spells had been a creature, I would still have been in great shape.

Anyway, I wouldn't keep anything based off the merit of multiple Dazes and Forces. That seems bad. But if it has 2 or more Spell Pierces/REBs and a couple cantrips, I'd snap-keep it every time. Basically I want 3 "good" counters and a way to dig, at minimum. The biggest reason I think this way is that you can easily mulligan a hand of multiple playable spells and disruption into something with either bad mana, creatures with no disruption, or a similar hand with one less card. It's totally an in-the-moment decision though, and to each their own. I obviously felt pretty confident about the situation last night but I'm very aware that it won't always work out that way.

Also, ANT and Show and Tell are definitely different decks. We run more counterspells than the current Sneak/Show builds, and REB and Pierce are much better than Force and Misdirection. ANT/TES is probably more capable of playing through a disruptive hand, especially the lists with Chants or Inquisitions, so I'd say we definitely need pressure sooner there. But I'd still be loathe to mull a perfectly playable 7-card hand full of counters to find a turn 1 Delver when I know they can probably go off before he even flips if I don't have support to back it up. 5 and 6 card hands get reduced to topdecking very quickly.

Tammit67

05-22-2012, 02:58 PM

Also, ANT and Show and Tell are definitely different decks. We run more counterspells than the current Sneak/Show builds, and REB and Pierce are much better than Force and Misdirection. ANT/TES is probably more capable of playing through a disruptive hand, especially the lists with Chants or Inquisitions, so I'd say we definitely need pressure sooner there. But I'd still be loathe to mull a perfectly playable 7-card hand full of counters to find a turn 1 Delver when I know they can probably go off before he even flips if I don't have support to back it up. 5 and 6 card hands get reduced to topdecking very quickly.

The combo player usually puts you on 1-2 pieces of disruption anyway, and few are willing to call your bluff. Without pressure, your 3 disruption hand gets played through very quickly, either by them developing a manabase to pay for daze/pierce or by finding discard/chant/FoW themselves to beat the hard counters.

You are eventually going to need a clock and disruption to win. Might as well mulligan to the one that's harder to find and lets them see fewer cards, no?

Borealis

05-22-2012, 04:34 PM

Not necessarily. I run 13 counterspells main +3 REB effects, so at most I'll have 16 disruption spells in the deck. Against a lot of Combo decks I'd probably side in a few creatures too, as even a Sulfur Elemental is more relevant than Bolts against anything other than Ad Nauseum. So maybe I'm running 14 creatures post-board (just add 2 Ooze for simplicity). My chances of drawing either creatures or counters are pretty equal in that case, and I'd rather counter their first attempt at comboing off, draw some cards, maybe Waste a land or two, and then hit pressure, than to sit there with a Nimble Mongoose, Flipped Delver, and a Lonely REB in hand while they poop all over me.

Basically the point is I hate mulliganing, especially hands that are playable, and with this deck it can be especially bad. With good mana and some cantrips, it's rare that you will have trouble hitting a threat for more than a couple turns. If you're not drawing dudes, than your just drawing more cantrips and counterspells anyway. Developing your mana and playing Draw-go is not the worst thing against Combo as long as you have something to react with. If you still lose, well that sucks, but at least you were able to play a little magic first.

Anyway, we're approaching a dead horse, so I'll just end my thoughts by saying, it really completely depends on the situation, the player, and how lucky you are feeling. If I sense my deck is in harmony, I'll keep just about anything that looks slightly risky. If it looks bad and I won the first game, I'll mull it. You keep your 7s and I'll keep mine, and we'll still probably get there against combo Most of the Time anyway. Cheers!

ShiftyKapree

05-26-2012, 07:34 AM

Rekk

05-28-2012, 04:37 PM

Just started playing this deck, if anyone could give me some sideboard notes that would be cool. Also has anyone though of Pithing Needle in this format, it seems like a good choice to me and can stop alot of things that give us trouble.
I thought about using
4 submerge
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Spell Pierce

With Show And Tell being a huge problem for me I increased the blast and surgical Extractions instead of typical graveyard hate.

Surgical is actually not that great against them actually, any intuition player suspecting surgical boards out intuition. and even if you do surgical a target after they sneaked, their is so little chance your winning that match.

Mirror
out:
(numbers won't add up)
force of will
forked bolt
(play or draw dependent daze but i leave them in)
in submerges, for me the one of ooze and the loam.

Sneak and show,
out
SPELL SNARE all day everyday its horrible
bolts/ both versions. (lightning can finish them off though)
In
spell pierces
blasts (blue isn't really that good but hey better then snare)
ancient grudge (if you suspect chalice of the the void (good luck beating that on one)

RDW

out:
force of will
maybe stifles

In
blue blasts (duh)
spell pierce

stoneblade:
out
force of wills
stifles

in
pierce
redblasts
ancient grudges

Pithing needle is so sloow and reactive not in the vein of the deck

Borealis

05-29-2012, 05:15 PM

Shifty, what is the rest of your list? Can't really judge a sideboard without the other 60 cards. First instinct is that you want 4 Spell Pierce in the 75 though.

I tend to agree about Surgical. When we ran Snapcaster, Surgical was the tits because you could flash it back for free, and often the second time you hit is the turning point. But it's almost not worth siding in against combo, since if you hit it later in the game it might be too late, and early on I'd rather just have more counterspells/pressure. It's only good if you've countered something relevant already, and it doesn't have as big of an impact against the Graveyard decks as other options do. Currently, I'm running 2 Scavenging Ooze and considering adding a Tormod's Crypt or Relic as my 3rd GY hate card. I'm light on the GY hate though.

Also, to the rest of the forum, is Blue Elemental Blast really still necessary? Outside of being decent against RDW, which isn't nearly as popular anymore, I don't see the value. I'd rather run 3 REBs and use that 4th slot for something else.

JJ-JKidd

05-29-2012, 08:36 PM

Pherion

05-30-2012, 12:12 PM

A build which used Kird Ape in place of Nimble Mongoose placed second @ the latest Bazaar of Moxen. His creature base was:

3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf

I would like to test the Kird Ape but with Nimble Mongoose and without the Mancers.

And,, for those still using Thought Scour like me, has anyone tried Faithless Looting? Its 1cc like Scour but at sorcery speed, though it cant be targeted to an opponent after a Brainstorm or a Ponder. But the question is, does Scouring after Brainstorm or Ponder really that "game-breaking?"

Opposed to Faithless Looting, you can have the option to bin two useless cards in your hand to the yard, and its ability to be re-cast again through its flashback cost is something that can be considered.

I'd like to know you're reasoning for ever targeting your opponent with a thought scour. If it's after a brainstorm, how do you know what they put onto is something they want to keep. Most people keep the good cards in their hand. I just fail to see the usefulness. Targeting yourself is so much more powerful. It activates mongoose, digs, and lets you pull out of a bad brainstorm. There are so many unknowns when targeting an opponent, I just don't see myself ever doing it.

sdematt

05-30-2012, 12:18 PM

Reasons for targeting someone with Thoughtscour:

-They've just Personal tutored.
-Enlightened Tutor.
-You think they have a Miracle coming up.
-They have Sensei's Top on top.

Etc.

-Matt

Water_Wizard

05-30-2012, 04:34 PM

A build which used Kird Ape in place of Nimble Mongoose placed second @ the latest Bazaar of Moxen. His creature base was:

3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf

I would like to test the Kird Ape but with Nimble Mongoose and without the Mancers.

I saw this list and it intrigued me. I think you have the right idea of keeping Nimble in. I would run at least 1 Taiga if you are going to run Kird Ape. Let me know how it goes.

And,, for those still using Thought Scour like me, has anyone tried Faithless Looting? Its 1cc like Scour but at sorcery speed, though it cant be targeted to an opponent after a Brainstorm or a Ponder. But the question is, does Scouring after Brainstorm or Ponder really that "game-breaking?"

Opposed to Faithless Looting, you can have the option to bin two useless cards in your hand to the yard, and its ability to be re-cast again through its flashback cost is something that can be considered.
Two notes on Thought Scour v. Faithless Looting.
1) Thought Scour is neutral card advantage (since you draw a card), and can provide virtual card advantage through its use with Brainstorm/Ponder (the same is true with Faithless Looting, though). Faithless Looting is -1 card advantage.
2) Thought Scour is blue, which makes it combo better with FOW and our mana base (since all of our lands produce blue). It is also an instant, which allows for EOT use of our streamlined mana base.

Faithless Looting in combination with Kird Ape might be nice, as Kird Ape supports running at least 1 Taiga, which gives us additional sources of R mana.

Borealis

05-30-2012, 04:48 PM

Pherion, what sdematt said. Also, in response to their Delver triggers, if you see a card you don't like, mill it away. I've tested RUG against the Miracle U/W deck recently and I can verify that Thought Scour is very useful in that match if you play it right. When they flip their Top to Terminus you, you can respond to the Trigger with TS. If you don't care about the Miracle or their top card, you can just mill away the Top. It also can, occasionally, help mess up their Counterbalance stack, but that's obviously a rare outlying situation. The point is though, it's primarily for your Mongeese, but you have other options with it. I've even blindly milled my control opponents rather than myself simply because I knew they packed enchantments, artifacts, and/or planeswalkers and I wanted my Goyf to hit 5/6.

Moving onto Faithless Looting, I don't think this has nearly as much value to us, as Water Wizard stated. We care more about the instant speed cantrip than the digging ability, and we already have 8 other ways to dig into our deck without having to lose a card. Also, I don't see us flashing it back very often at 3 mana, especially since we will likely be low on cards at that point in the match. It might be worth testing in some versions, but I think the only way to really get value from it is to run Snapcasters and Flashback/Dredge cards. Something worth looking into, but certainly not something that really fits into the modern evolution of Thresh.

Raggedjoe

05-30-2012, 05:43 PM

Reasons for targeting someone with Thoughtscour:

-They've just Personal tutored.
-Enlightened Tutor.
-You think they have a Miracle coming up.
-They have Sensei's Top on top.

Etc.

-Matt

This. It's really a boss vs the new Terminus deck. I've been testing:

4 Mongoose
4 Delver
3 Goyf
1 GSZ

4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Thought Scour

4 Wasteland
3 Volcanic
3 Tropical
1 Island
7 Fetchlands (2 of each with 1 one-of)

SB:
3 REB
2 BEB
3 Submerge
2 Cursed Totem
3 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Ancient Grudge

It's really beautiful, and I love every aspect of the mainboard. Most of the sb is locked in, but I actually find myself wondering about dropping Grudge every once in a while. I must be crazy, but I feel I'd rather have Spree against both Affinity and StoneBlade (harder to counter, dodges spell snare).

BEB is new over 1 Cage and 1 Life from the Loam, but I feel the added push vs Burn and UR Delver makes it worthwhile.

JJ-JKidd

05-30-2012, 09:58 PM

I saw this list and it intrigued me. I think you have the right idea of keeping Nimble in. I would run at least 1 Taiga if you are going to run Kird Ape. Let me know how it goes.

Two notes on Thought Scour v. Faithless Looting.
1) Thought Scour is neutral card advantage (since you draw a card), and can provide virtual card advantage through its use with Brainstorm/Ponder (the same is true with Faithless Looting, though). Faithless Looting is -1 card advantage.
2) Thought Scour is blue, which makes it combo better with FOW and our mana base (since all of our lands produce blue). It is also an instant, which allows for EOT use of our streamlined mana base.

Faithless Looting in combination with Kird Ape might be nice, as Kird Ape supports running at least 1 Taiga, which gives us additional sources of R mana.

I run at least 1 Taiga to go along with the 3 Tropical Islands and the 3 Volcanic Islands. I will provide inputs on the Apes+Geese dont worry.

Pherion, what sdematt said. Also, in response to their Delver triggers, if you see a card you don't like, mill it away. I've tested RUG against the Miracle U/W deck recently and I can verify that Thought Scour is very useful in that match if you play it right. When they flip their Top to Terminus you, you can respond to the Trigger with TS. If you don't care about the Miracle or their top card, you can just mill away the Top. It also can, occasionally, help mess up their Counterbalance stack, but that's obviously a rare outlying situation. The point is though, it's primarily for your Mongeese, but you have other options with it. I've even blindly milled my control opponents rather than myself simply because I knew they packed enchantments, artifacts, and/or planeswalkers and I wanted my Goyf to hit 5/6.

Moving onto Faithless Looting, I don't think this has nearly as much value to us, as Water Wizard stated. We care more about the instant speed cantrip than the digging ability, and we already have 8 other ways to dig into our deck without having to lose a card. Also, I don't see us flashing it back very often at 3 mana, especially since we will likely be low on cards at that point in the match. It might be worth testing in some versions, but I think the only way to really get value from it is to run Snapcasters and Flashback/Dredge cards. Something worth looking into, but certainly not something that really fits into the modern evolution of Thresh.

Well it depends if the Miracle cards do catch up in my local meta, I might be even increasing my Scours from 2 to 3. Terminus is just so bad for RUG. Thanks for the inputs anyway.

Fossil4182

06-01-2012, 06:29 PM

Caleb Durward just posted an article about Tempo Thresh. Rather good article covering the uses of Brainstorm, Wasteland and Stifle in RUG Tempo.

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-the-perfect-stifle/

I am the brainwasher

06-01-2012, 06:32 PM

I do highly recommend that article for beginners of the deck, not only to prevent eye-cancer while looking through the thread from time to time... .

Tammit67

06-02-2012, 02:49 AM

Well it depends if the Miracle cards do catch up in my local meta, I might be even increasing my Scours from 2 to 3. Terminus is just so bad for RUG. Thanks for the inputs anyway.

Terminus wasn't a problem for me in my testing tonight. They had to have their 3-4 of and I needed to not have stifle/force. Or just don't commit too many geese to the table at once

ThomasDowd

06-02-2012, 03:33 AM

Terminus wasn't a problem for me in my testing tonight. They had to have their 3-4 of and I needed to not have stifle/force. Or just don't commit too many geese to the table at once

they typically fire it off early and you can crush it with a spell pierce, or yeah just not overcommitting will lead to wins very fast, since they do not have a ton of answers (watch out for clique on mongoose though!)

i played against it once Vs a pretty good player and punted on a ponder that would have sealed me the game,but it never really felt too out of reach. mongoose is the tits in this match up by the way.

Pherion

06-03-2012, 07:04 PM

Ok, so I've reworked my deck a tad to count for the new Miracle decks! Biggest change are three Stifle are back in the deck. I've been running without them for a while now. They feel really good through to have back in. The other addition is an additional Thought Scour. I do see the uses against miracles, but it's also insane with Nimble Mongoose, and has propelled me to a few very fast victories.

I play tested a bit against Maverick today, and owned. Not sure the exact record, but it was at least 10 games, and he only won two of them. The ones he won were only because a Knight resolved. Every other game I was able to disrupt his mana, remove his mana dorks/moms, etc etc etc.... Felt very good. We didn't do any sideboard games, so he didn't have the advantage of Choke, but I feel confident that I can win game 1 against Maverick now.

Anyway, here's the list. Comments/Crit welcome :P

Lands
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland

Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Taramogoyf

Control
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce

Removal/Burn
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Forked Bolt

Cantrips
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Thought Scour

Sideboard
4 Submerge
3 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroclasm
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction

xfxf

06-04-2012, 04:58 AM

Sideboarding question here.

I have 2 scavenging ooze in the sideboard for the mirror and the graveyard decks. However I'm trying to diversify the graveyard hate and not sure how to compliment the Oozes. I'm thinking I could go 2 Surgical Extractions which would give me both permanent and non-permanent hate (to dodge those pithing needles) while Surgicals could double duty against storm combo decks as well. On the other hand I'm thinking whether Tormod's Crypt/Grafdiggers Cage would be better hosers against graveyard to compliment Oozes. If I go with permenant hate, would Crypt or Cage be better?

Water_Wizard

06-04-2012, 07:02 AM

Pherion

06-04-2012, 12:39 PM

@ Pherion - -1 Forked Bolt, +1 Goyf Goyf is just too good in too many match-ups not to run all 4 (the exception being when you add a GSZ (which I don't recommend), which basically serves as the 4th Goyf). Forked Bolt shines in Maverick, but vs. the field, I think you are better off running Goyf.

@ bilbo - I like Tormod's Crypt because it's free and it removes the threat. Tormod's get's you into more explosive starts where you can play it and a Delver turn 1 or play it with Spell Pierce mana up - especially important when playing on the draw game 3.

Can you be a bit more specific? I know goyf is good, but there are so many situations where flying or shroud trump size. For instance, againsed anything white I'd generally like to see goose because of Sword to Plowshares. What are the significant instances where you'd like to see goyf over the other creatures in the deck.

As to taking out a forked bolt, I can see it being fine as I used to run two. However, maverick isn't the only thing it's good againsed. I like the extra reach it provides, but I'm open to drop it.

Borealis

06-04-2012, 01:12 PM

Pherion, WWizard is right. While Goyf sometimes gets brickwalled, that shouldn't be a reason to only run 3. He's too important. All the creatures are too important in our deck. You really can't drop below 12. 2 Forked Bolt is still fine, and I'm actually considering a 1/1 split with Fire// Ice. But the point is, we are already really light on creatures, and Goyf is our Heaviest Hitter. He is our late game. We need to draw him almost every match. We need 4 creatures in that spot.

I'm actually going to cut 1 Goyf for a maindeck Scavenging Ooze. I'll still probably have 1 in the board alongside 2 Tormod's Crypts. If you've seen Eric Rill's list you'll see I'm using a couple of his ideas. I'm also going to try Stifle again based on my testing experience this weekend, and again partially because of Rill's performance.

Pherion

06-04-2012, 04:52 PM

I'll give the fourth Goyf a try :)

On Fire/Ice. It still feels a bit ballsy to me replacing a forked bolt with Fire/Ice. With Thalia in the meta, it feels way to expensive for what it does. I can see it's uses on other decks, but having to pay three for it to get rid of a Thalia makes me wince. What are you looking at that will redeem it?

Borealis

06-04-2012, 05:40 PM

Just the variety. You're probably right though. But tapping down a bigger threat and drawing a card is relevant in a lot of matchups, including Maverick. And they might just play her after you remove their other dudes anyway. But it could just be greedy. I've also toyed with the idea of just saying fuck it, and going back to running 2-3 Chain Lightnings.

wcm8

06-04-2012, 10:27 PM

Sunday Funday

06-04-2012, 10:50 PM

So has anyone tested the creature suite of:

4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf
4 kird ape
3 grim lavamancer

I tried it and disliked the lavamancers. Kird ape over mongoose has been amazing as its a much faster clock vs. combo decks as shroud doesn't really matter. For every non-tarmogoyf creature that dies of removal, that's one less for tarmogoyf :) That's what I like most. Typical RUG has only eight non shroud creatures whereas this configuration has more aggro.

Also, fire/ice has been phenomenal. The cards versatility is remarkable and is not dead like forked bolt is vs. combo. Icing a land with pierce or daze backup is bonkers.

Pherion

06-04-2012, 11:04 PM

Here is an amusing card from M13:

Jace’s Phantasm U
Creature – Illusion (U)
Flying
Jace’s Phantasm gets +4/+4 as long as an opponent has ten or more cards in his or her graveyard.
1/1

I don't know how to feel about this card. Between fetchlands, removal, cantrips and so forth, meeting the reverse threshold requirement isn't particularly difficult in Legacy. Maybe playable as a one-of for the late game?

I'd say this is going to be a sideboard option at best. For most of the current meta, we need to play hard and win quick. The point at where this guy becomes viable, is when we are starting to top deck. Not to mention he's a magnet for StP and other removal. Delver is fast, and that's why he's good. This might be good in standard as a late game option in Delver variants, but I don't think it's going to be very playable in Legacy.

illusivek

06-05-2012, 06:46 AM

Fire / Ice is awesome, I love that card xD

I'm still struggling with deciding between Pierce and Stifle, even after reading every conceivable piece of writing on the web about it. Is anyone that's well versed in the discussion able to private message me or something and we could talk about it? I've been running the arguments through my head for the past 8 hours.

In BOM there was a cool decklist that cut a daze and a Snare for 2 Spierce (he was on the Stifle plan). What are your opinions on that?

I am the brainwasher

06-05-2012, 10:56 AM

In BOM there was a cool decklist that cut a daze and a Snare for 2 Spierce (he was on the Stifle plan). What are your opinions on that?

That list was from Johannes Gehrer, which is definetly one of the better (best) pilots of the deck you'll find in Austria/Germany.
I think this list is nearly the best you can do right now.
To tell a bit of a story before going more into detail with Gehrer's list, this is the last list I designed in April:

Creatures
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce

4 Stifle

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember
2 Forked Bolt

Lands
3 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
1 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Submerge
1 Mind Harness
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Rough/Tumble

After winning the win-and-in match against Punishing Maverick way too close and only on the back of Sulfur Elemental in G2 and Mind Harness in G3, I made Top 8 out of 89 players back then with the upper list.
After mentally going back through the games and my former testing results, I realized that the key to win the Maverick MU is to steal or counter a Knight or Big-ass Ooze while having the opportunity to connect with your dudes undisturbed.
Gaddock Teeg, hands with a lot of lands while you lack pressure, the insane topdecks Maverick has, Thalia that's stretching the game for 1-2 turns and a quite shaky mana-denial plan drove me away from Submerge to accomplish that goal reliably.
Sweepers in addition with Mind Harness/Dismember/Force or Pierce for GSZ and removal is insane against Maverick and gives you the chance to assemble enormous blowouts the deck can not recover from. This is propably the thought behind Gehrer's list. Playing less removal and a better counter-suite, having more sweepers in the board while still beeing flexible.
I tried that exact same thing just the other way around with the upper list, but I have to admit that I am convinced that his list is doing a better job allover in the current meta-game.

I play nearly the same list as Gehrer atm, just that I cut a Goyf for the 4th Daze and play only 3 Trops and an additional Fetchland. Daze seems way more reasonable to me in the face of Show and Tell and a lot of Control-Decks, so thats that.
As far as the sideboard goes, I've cut a Mind Harness for a Dismember, which I am a bit more pleased with since there a quite a few decks out there where Dismember is better against now and then and its more flexible while also beeing a boss against Maverick.
The attempt to clear the board with (semi)sweepers (which there are 4! of in the board) and then grabbing a huge KotR or Ooze is way more effective than durdling around with a mana-denial plan with Submerge.
Elemental and Rough are just awesome and way more flexible than it looks on paper and shine in other MU's as well.
I am not sure about that lone Krosan Grip though and I can see both the merit of it as well as replacing it for a Flusterstorm or REB/PB.

illusivek

06-05-2012, 01:25 PM

It seems like all the really good thresh players are always on the 4 stifle plan.

For the 2 removal spots, have you considered running 2x Fire/ice?

I am the brainwasher

06-05-2012, 02:20 PM

In January, I still played this list:

6 Fetch
4 Waste
4 Trop
4 Volc

4 Delver
4 Goyf
3 Mongoose

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Snare
4 Daze
4 FoW
4 Stifle
4 Bolt
3 F/I

At that point I was pretty happy with the list. Then the popularity of Maverick decks that are straight GW, mainly because of Thalia, rose and TomM won the GP with Esper-Blade. I didn't felt too good playing against those 2 decks when they were piloted by a good player (which should always be the point from which you start when it comes down to trim the deck) so something needed to be changed. Since the mana got even tighter and I realized that I boarded out 1-2 FoW quite often in those MU's (plus Sneak Show wasn't/isn't that big of a deal here), I changed my deck and board to the list from my last post.
The meta has slightly changed, giving Control and Dredge/Combo a bit more of the percentages, so the changes that can be found in Gehrer's list are a concession to that phenomenom.
As awesome as Fire/Ice is, the one itty bitty mana makes a huge difference between it and Forked Bolt and its flexibility isn't important enough to play it right now.
While talking about removal, way more important is the discussion about Dismember, which a lot of players dislike for the wrong, or no reason.
Personally, I can't see myself cutting Dismember now. The upsides are enormous, starting with beeing able to pay for it with a Waste or Trop. The card eats up whole turns and deals with cards that are likeley going to beat you once resolved or given a single turn.

Regarding Stifle: Run it.
I have already admitted that both ways of playing Pierce or Stifle is totally fine, but as you pointed out, there is a reason why the best pilots of the deck play the card. I can't even express how awesome that card is.

illusivek

06-05-2012, 03:10 PM

Seems fair. Do you think the Spell Pierce no stifle version is placing so well because of the fact that spell pierce is positioned very well right now? Like looking long term, do you think everyone will be going back to Stifle?

Another long term question, do you think Pierce will warrant spots in the future; I kind of like the idea of it as a two of; it deals with late game bombs quite effectively, and it I feel like it gives you a counter suite that is built to beat an opponents deck, rather than just jamming everything as a 4 of. It's hard to cut daze though, because it's part of our card advantage engine w/ Brainstorm.

I really like Dismember, it deals with a lot of the things that give tempo thresh trouble, and makes dropping to 3 Snare reasonable.

I am the brainwasher

06-05-2012, 03:28 PM

Do you think the Spell Pierce no stifle version is placing so well because of the fact that spell pierce is positioned very well right now?
Indeed. Spell Pierce is amazing right now. IMO you can be pretty fukced with those when you lack Stifle completely, but as long as you can get the right MU's, you're fine.

Like looking long term, do you think everyone will be going back to Stifle?
Since a lot of people are attracted to the so called "flavour of the week", I don't think so. That doesn't change my view on how people should play the card though.

Another long term question, do you think Pierce will warrant spots in the future; I kind of like the idea of it as a two of; it deals with late game bombs quite effectively, and it I feel like it gives you a counter suite that is built to beat an opponents deck, rather than just jamming everything as a 4 of. It's hard to cut daze though, because it's part of our card advantage engine w/ Brainstorm.
Pierce will be a maindeck card or at least a 3-off in the board for quite some time. The number of things it deals with effectiveley, especially when looking at what Canadian Threshold does in general, is enormous and I can't see that changing too soon, while it obviously can at some point.

xfxf

06-05-2012, 03:34 PM

I still don't think there is Stifle or Pierce, there is Stifle and Pierce. Why do you still play Snare when you can hit Snare targets with everything else in your deck?

My current build:

4 Goose
4 Goyf
4 Delver

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

3 FoW
3 Pierce
4 Daze
4 Stifle

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Forked Bolt
2 Chain Lightning

4 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
8 Fetches

SB:
2 Sulfur Elemental
3 Submerge
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 FoW
1 Flusterstorm
2 Ancient Grudge

I don't need Snares at all with this build and use all the advantages of both Pierce and the Stifle. I have extra reach for when a 2cc makes its way onto the board. I have the mana denial package. I have Pierces and FoWs. I have extra burn if I'm trying to race. I'm pretty happy with the build.

Atog

06-05-2012, 03:53 PM

After winning the win-and-in match against Punishing Maverick way too close and only on the back of Sulfur Elemental in G2 and Mind Harness in G3, I made Top 8 out of 89 players back then with the upper list.
After mentally going back through the games and my former testing results, I realized that the key to win the Maverick MU is to steal or counter a Knight or Big-ass Ooze while having the opportunity to connect with your dudes undisturbed.
Gaddock Teeg, hands with a lot of lands while you lack pressure, the insane topdecks Maverick has, Thalia that's stretching the game for 1-2 turns and a quite shaky mana-denial plan drove me away from Submerge to accomplish that goal reliably.
Sweepers in addition with Mind Harness/Dismember/Force or Pierce for GSZ and removal is insane against Maverick and gives you the chance to assemble enormous blowouts the deck can not recover from. This is propably the thought behind Gehrer's list. Playing less removal and a better counter-suite, having more sweepers in the board while still beeing flexible.

If you are siding in 6 cards versus maveric (3 Submerge, 1 Mind Harness, 1 Sulfur Elemental, 1 Rough/Tumble) what you are taking out then? Dazes and something? Snares hit atleast thalia, GSZ sometimes, ooze and tarmo's if they are playing them. But if you side Mind Harness in you can just steal their guys. So is snares coming out too?

I am the brainwasher

06-05-2012, 04:59 PM

Punishing Maverick isn't playing Thalia for obvious reasons.
I, since I was not super experienced with the MU at that point, gone safe and took out all Delvers, a Snare and maybe 2 Dazes on the Draw or something.
Today, I might not cut all the Delvers and leave in 2 copies, since I heard that P-Fire is cut down to 2 postboard from their side, but that depends on a bit on my gutfeeling.
With the current sideboard, it seems more safe to go down with Forces on the play, since only KotR or sometimes GSZ ask to get forced.

Mark Sun

06-05-2012, 09:49 PM

I can get behind less Spell Snare. That card is pretty bad right now. It has variable effect in the mirror and against Maverick with no targets against Sneak Show.

JJ-JKidd

06-05-2012, 09:59 PM

Sunday Funday

06-05-2012, 11:42 PM

Testing the Apes and I'm kinda liking it. It provides for a faster faster clock indeed, however, the deck is more prone to Engineered Explosives and Ratchet Bombs with the increase in 1cc threats. My creature configuration currently is:

3 Apes
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

However, I would have to test it against UW Miracle control as I heard that Terminus is a bad bad card for us.

Also, im currently testing Pithing Needle for those Miracle control decks in place of Sulfur Elementals. If UW Miracles indeed start to pick up, and Esper decks slightly decline in popularity I think it would be the right call as it hits Senseis, Jace, Elspeth. For Maverick, however, I have yet to test if Needling a Mom or a KoTR or a Jitte or a Fauna Shaman or an Ooze or what have you will SIGNIFICANTLY hurt them.

Plus, Needle hits the earlier-mentioned sweepers like EE and Ratchet Bomb.

I'm also liking the Kird Apes as the mirror can often come to a standoff between who has the most aggro and apes fill that role. Also, ape can survive a forked bolt at 2/3 and demands a lightning bolt or chain lightning to kill it. I'm currently testing the no spell snare version and liking it. It's really lackluster right now-even for mirror tarmogoyfs, I have my own goyfs or I'll gladly double block with ape an mongoose. I've tested fire/ice with mixed results. I'm planning on having maybe one ooze in the main as its a house in the mirror while shrinking opposing mongooses.

JJ-JKidd

06-06-2012, 12:15 AM

I'm also liking the Kird Apes as the mirror can often come to a standoff between who has the most aggro and apes fill that role. Also, ape can survive a forked bolt at 2/3 and demands a lightning bolt or chain lightning to kill it. I'm currently testing the no spell snare version and liking it. It's really lackluster right now-even for mirror tarmogoyfs, I have my own goyfs or I'll gladly double block with ape an mongoose. I've tested fire/ice with mixed results. I'm planning on having maybe one ooze in the main as its a house in the mirror while shrinking opposing mongooses.

Im down to two Snares now. I run no Stifles (3 Spell Pierces) and with multiple Storm decks in our meta, im really not that sold of completely removing the Snares.

Plus, if the Miracle thing gains steam, idk if Spell Pierce gets the nod over Stifle.

Have to test that EXTENSIVELY.

xfxf

06-06-2012, 05:26 AM

I just read Levin's article and regarding RUG he is on the Stifle + Pierce plan, droppping Snare and replacing them with Pierces and more Chain Lightnings. I don't know if I should be happy since a pro is saying the exact same thing I have said almost 6 weeks ago (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13715-DTB-Canadian-Thresh-(a.k.a.-RUG-Tempo-Tempo-Thresh)&p=633869&viewfull=1#post633869) or if I should be upset because that pro has a "Disregard Levin" meme after him.

Hof

06-06-2012, 06:10 AM

It is a little wierd that the debate is over Stifle vs Spell Pierce, when it should be over Stifle, Spell Pierce, and Spell Snare. Spell Snare is the weakest link in that chain.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lu39ylGn0B1qa9yff.gif
Sorry brainwasher, couldn't help myself :)

This is my current maindeck:

3 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire // Ice
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce

I love Sneak and Tell decks, they bring lots of crunchy snacks for Tarmogoyf: sorceries, artifacts, AND enchantments.

I am the brainwasher

06-06-2012, 07:15 AM

No need to excuse yourself here, you can quote me on that any time you want.
I was, am, and propably won't be against a combination of those (maybe because I started to split those on my own, regardless of all that pro-talk), but that doesn't change my view on how important Snare still is.
I noticed that the latest changes in the meta have turned people towards heavy Control-Decks, which are packing Counterbalance, Standstill, a ton of Tiagos and also, CC2 Removal and Counterspell, so thats that.
Thalia, Scavenging Ooze, Stoneforge Mystic, Scryb Ranger, opposing Tarmogoyfs and especially Snapcaster in the mid to lategame need to be fought on the stack a lot of times and the burn in your hand is just an insurance policy that you can get rid of the thread the next turn if you failed to do so in the first place.
Every Removal- or Burnspell outside of Dismember requires you to have a red mana source, which, in the face of Wasteland and the tight mana by itself, makes a huge difference, plus Chain Lightning and Forked Bolt are sorcery speed.
Tell me as much of that hypothetical chit chat about snaring or burning things is the exact same thing, at the end of the day it isn't and there are plenty of situations where Snare would have saved your butt and Pierce/Burn would not.
Look at your Burn, now back to Snare, now back to Burn, now back to Snare. Sadly, Burn isn't Snare. Snare's on a boat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owGykVbfgUE&feature=relmfu).

xfxf

06-06-2012, 07:49 AM

I agree with you that there are times when it's really better to fight those threats on the stack (mostly Snapcaster and Goyf). However, a lot of times Snare is sitting dead in your hand until they cast a 2cc spell and you miss the opportunity because you were already tapped out. So Snare continues to sit in your hand. You look at the 2cc on the board and back to the Snare and then back at the 2cc threat on the board.

To avoid such situations I'd rather have the Chain Lightning on hand and hope that I have mana open to Spell Pierce the spell which is flashed back by Snapcaster mage. I can Fork Bolt the mage later.

I am not directly replacing Snare with burn, but rather allocating its duties to Pierce and Burn while also benefitting from other situations where they are useful. Also I'm not much of a pro-talk fan either, I think they are mostly pros because they are kids who don't have the responsibilities most of us do, and can spend an incredible amount of time playing Magic :) Truth be told.

Hof

06-06-2012, 07:53 AM

Tell me as much of that hypothetical chit chat about snaring or burning things is the exact same thing, at the end of the day it isn't and there are plenty of situations where Snare would have saved your butt and Pierce/Burn would not.
Very true. Burning and snaring isn't the exact same thing, just as a cup of instant coffee isn't the same thing as coffee brewed from freshly roasted premium beans. Spell Snare can accomplish things that no other card can, no argument there. It is similar to Spell Pierce and Stifle in this way. So, when forced to make a choice between those three, I guess it comes down to measuring the frequence of situations that comes up where each one of those will save your butt and the other two + burn will not.

IAlso I'm not much of a pro-talk fan either, I think they are mostly pros because they are kids who don't have the responsibilities most of us do, and can spend an incredible amount of time playing Magic :) Truth be told.
There are no "pros" in Legacy, I think. Are there? I hope not.

I am the brainwasher

06-06-2012, 08:20 AM

just as a cup of instant coffee isn't the same thing as coffee brewed from freshly roasted premium beans.
Awwww man, so true:cry:. Even if I am not drinking much coffee, I would sell my thumb for a good one sometimes.

So, when forced to make a choice between those three, I guess it comes down to measuring the frequence of situations that comes up where each one of those will save your butt and the other two + burn will not.
Exactly. It is important to find out which combination is necessary right now and constantly adapt to whats in front of you. Stifle is something I wouldn't go below 3 and even that would feel wrong to me.

Sturtzilla

06-06-2012, 12:30 PM

Hey All!

I piloted RUG to a less than exciting finish at SCG Columbus. So I re-tailored my spell base. Last night at my local shop I prize split 1st and 2nd with another player running the following.

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Sercets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stifle
4 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

Sideboard

3 Surgical Extraction
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Submerge
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Gilded Drake
1 Sulfur Elemental

I am not sure but I think Stifle and Spell Pierce are probably were we want to be right now. My meta has like 2-3 U/R delvers, another RUG player, a few ANT players, one Sneak and Show, one stoneblade, one or two mavericks and maybe two dredge. We get a few people that brew as well so that factor is hard to predict, but is rarely an impact to the established decks. I liked the way the deck felt, however, a few Chain Lightnings might need to sneak back into the deck somewhere. I might go back down to 3 FoW and 3 Daze to squeeze in 2 Chains. That would be my two cents.

Sunday Funday

06-06-2012, 01:14 PM

Sorry brainwasher, couldn't help myself :)

This is my current maindeck:

3 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire // Ice
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce

I love Sneak and Tell decks, they bring lots of crunchy snacks for Tarmogoyf: sorceries, artifacts, AND enchantments.

Love this list. It begs the question of how you find the fire/ice in most matchups. I've tested it and not too sure of it's inclusion main.

Hey All!

I piloted RUG to a less than exciting finish at SCG Columbus. So I re-tailored my spell base. Last night at my local shop I prize split 1st and 2nd with another player running the following.

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Sercets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stifle
4 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

Sideboard

3 Surgical Extraction
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Submerge
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Gilded Drake
1 Sulfur Elemental

I am not sure but I think Stifle and Spell Pierce are probably were we want to be right now. My meta has like 2-3 U/R delvers, another RUG player, a few ANT players, one Sneak and Show, one stoneblade, one or two mavericks and maybe two dredge. We get a few people that brew as well so that factor is hard to predict, but is rarely an impact to the established decks. I liked the way the deck felt, however, a few Chain Lightnings might need to sneak back into the deck somewhere. I might go back down to 3 FoW and 3 Daze to squeeze in 2 Chains. That would be my two cents.

Congrats on your finish. I guess it's pretty standard now that the builds that run 3-4 stifles can afford to run only 18 lands as stifle obviously protects from opposing wastelands. I would cut one spell pierce and add a chain lightning. Without snares, you might probably want more burn to kill 2 drop critters and chain fills this role.

I'm very confident taking RUG to any tournament but still do find sneak show difficult to play against because of griselbrand. They can go off as early as turn one and you never feel like you want to tap out to play dudes cause you want the mana to counter.

Borealis

06-06-2012, 02:32 PM

I decided to finally get back on the Stifle Train, and came to the conclusion that Spell Snare was the card to cut to fit it all in. Then I read Drew Levin's article. While I usually don't agree with a lot of the stuff he says, I do think he's got a good grasp on RUG Delver.

Spell Snare is awesome, don't get me wrong. There's not much that feels better than Snaring their 2-drop while you flip a delver and swing. But you really need 3 or 4 to find it at the right time often enough, and even then you're going to find times where it's hard to cast effectively. When it's good, it's really good, but when only some of the decks are vulnerable to it, it's not worth the dead card. Maverick, Stoneblade, and to some extent Counterbalance and Snapcaster are certainly great matchups to have Spell Snare in, but there are many more matchups out there where Snare is not nearly as useful right now. The final nail in the coffin is probably the fact that it does nothing against Sneak and Show.

Burn may also be bad sometimes, but it pretty much answers all of the above cards as well, except counterbalance. Burn also helps against Combo, and in general can help you win the game, rather than just sitting dead in your hand with no targets. Big difference when every card counts.

So anyway, as of now I'm running 4 Stifle, 3 Pierce, 3 Daze, 3 FOW, 4 Bolt, 3 Forked Bolt, and 1 Thought Scour in the flex slots. I want to cut the Thought Scour for either the 4th Spell Pierce, or to fit a 2/2 split of Chain Lightning/Forked Bolt. But I really think Thought Scour is necessary to fuel up Mongoose, and I feel like I want 2 of those still as well. They certainly help a little bit in the CounterTop match as well, even if it's marginal. I'm also sticking with 19 lands, and I'm very strongly considering swapping an Island for the 4th Trop. Tough decisions to make before Sunday (not to mention, do I try U/R Delver instead?? but probably not).

Hof

06-06-2012, 04:12 PM

Love this list. It begs the question of how you find the fire/ice in most matchups. I've tested it and not too sure of it's inclusion main.
Thanks. I have been playing 3 Fire/Ice for a long time and have only recently gone up to 4. I think that card is simply amazing and, I must say, underrated. I use the blue side of the card a lot. I have 8 cc2 spells in total, which is not too many. And thanks to Fire/Ice I have 8 burn spells maindeck but only 4 bolts to sideboard out in matchups where burn is irrelevant.

Awaclus

06-06-2012, 05:54 PM

Recently, I've been wanting to cut both Pierce and Snare. In their slots, I'd run more burn or maindeck Pyroblast.

EDIT: After testing, I found out that what I really wanted from those slots wasn't burn or Pyroblast, but it was Preordain, actually. My maindeck is now as follows, and I'm super happy with its performance.

4 Wasteland
8 Fetchlands
6 Duals

4 Delver
4 Goose
4 Tarmo

4 Lighthing Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Fire/Ice
3 Preordain

Pherion

06-06-2012, 06:54 PM

Plus, if the Miracle thing gains steam, idk if Spell Pierce gets the nod over Stifle.

In reference to this. The primary situation I ran into last week (not playing stifle) is that they flip a miracle with 3-5 mana in play. They rarely flip it before then (in my experience). In that case, spell pierce doesn't do anything. In fact, stifle here trumps pierce the whole way. Baring a brainstorm effect, stifle not only prevents the miracle from going off, but it also puts an unplayable card into their hand. I'll be testing this tonight if I run into a miracle deck.

JJ-JKidd

06-06-2012, 11:05 PM

In reference to this. The primary situation I ran into last week (not playing stifle) is that they flip a miracle with 3-5 mana in play. They rarely flip it before then (in my experience). In that case, spell pierce doesn't do anything. In fact, stifle here trumps pierce the whole way. Baring a brainstorm effect, stifle not only prevents the miracle from going off, but it also puts an unplayable card into their hand. I'll be testing this tonight if I run into a miracle deck.

I also theorized this as control decks CAN obv pay for Spell Pierce's 2 with the number of lands in their deck so Stifle on paper looks solid vs Pierce. Im going to test this in 2 days time, and come back and report the outcome.

JJ-JKidd

06-07-2012, 02:05 AM

Also, I havent tested extensively against Sneaky Show, is that a good or a bad MU?

Einherjer

06-07-2012, 03:04 AM

Also, I havent tested extensively against Sneaky Show, is that a good or a bad MU?

It's more of a even MUs that depends largely on the skill of the Thresh-player.

Tammit67

06-07-2012, 12:45 PM

It's more of a even MUs that depends largely on the skill of the Thresh-player.

I have found Thresh to disadvantaged preboard. They can literally drop a bunch of lands and the only relevant card is our forces then, one of which they can almost always play through. occasionally we get there on the back of delver, mana disruption and timely counters, but it has been rare.

Koby

06-07-2012, 01:25 PM

I have found Thresh to disadvantaged preboard. They can literally drop a bunch of lands and the only relevant card is our forces then, one of which they can almost always play through. occasionally we get there on the back of delver, mana disruption and timely counters, but it has been rare.

The best strategy I've discovered against Sneak Show is to counter the cantrips. The deck is similar to Hive Mind in that it needs a lot of filtering to find its pieces. Of course, if you only have 1-2 counters in your hand, you need to save them for Show n Tell/Sneak Attack. Nimble Mongoose is almost always too slow.

Tammit67

06-07-2012, 03:22 PM

Sunday Funday

06-07-2012, 09:05 PM

The best strategy I've discovered against Sneak Show is to counter the cantrips. The deck is similar to Hive Mind in that it needs a lot of filtering to find its pieces. Of course, if you only have 1-2 counters in your hand, you need to save them for Show n Tell/Sneak Attack. Nimble Mongoose is almost always too slow.

With the sneak show matchup, you almost always have to turn 1 or 2 delver and sculpt your hand with as much counter magic as possible. Yes, mongoose clock is too slow and tapping 2 lands for tarmogoyf isn't ideal since they will probably try to go off knowing you're tapped out. This is why I have adopted the kird ape strategy which speeds your clock. My creature base is currently:

4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf
4 nimble mongoose
3 kird ape

This is similar to Cyril's Terroy's Bazaar of Moxen creature base but I cut the lavamancers for mongoose. Lavamancer has been pretty awful in testing. Right now, I think the core shell of counters should debatably be:

4 force of will
4 daze
3-4 spell pierce and nothing less.

xfxf

06-08-2012, 05:26 AM

Rekk

06-08-2012, 10:46 AM

because g/w brings in choke am i suppose to leave in force of will? I've been discussing this with people and haven't come to a conclusion yet. it seems like i would wanna force knight thalia and choke, but 2-1ing myself feels so awful.

Koby

06-08-2012, 12:15 PM

Tammit67

06-08-2012, 12:59 PM

Why are you guys so concerned about Choke? You run Daze (resets the Island), all your spells cost 0-1 mana, and already maintain tempo advantage with an early Delver.

If anything, don't tap out so often early and leave Spell Pierce mana up.

I don't understand why people are worried about a 3 mana enchantment that doesn't affect the board all that much.

+1 Koby

dagoblinguy

06-08-2012, 03:03 PM

thinking of bringing this list to starcity worcester this sunday.

decided to cut 1 volcanic for a taiga to play around surgical extraction and 1 fetchland for an island to play around wasteland. also cut my 1 of dismember for a 3rd forked bolt. i love sylvan library and am wondering other peoples opinions on it

1 island
1 taiga
2 volcanic island
3 tropical island
4 misty rainforest
4 scalding tarn
4 wasteland

4 nimble mongoose
4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf

1 sylvan library

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 stifle
3 spell pierce
3 daze
3 force of will

4 lightning bolt
3 forked bolt

sideboard:
4 submerge
3 sulfur elemental
2 scavenging ooze
2 pyroblast
1 sulfuric vortex
1 tormod's crypt
2 flex slots

Koby

06-08-2012, 03:05 PM

sideboard:
4 submerge
3 sulfur elemental
2 scavenging ooze
2 pyroblast
1 sulfuric vortex
1 tormod's crypt
2 flex slots

You will do fine against fair decks, and probably the mirror. You're going to suffer against any deck trying to kill you before you get a chance to attack. Keep that in mind when finding those last 2 slots.

Mark Sun

06-08-2012, 04:20 PM

Basic Island seems bad right now. I'm testing/playing a Breeding Pool, which I will be rocking tomorrow at a much smaller event. Plays around Surgical Extraction the same, still casts cantrips and occasionally bounces to Daze. Remember, we are predominantly a deck that relies on blue, not green/red. Cantrips are what fuels the deck.

The spell configuration I'm playing from yours is actually the same minus one change, as it turns out. +1 Force of Will, -1 Forked Bolt. Still figuring out the sideboard at this point. I feel like I struck out at Columbus last weekend (deck reg error and mulligans) so I'll stick with the same sideboard for now. No point in posting it without real results, your metagame will vary.

Sunday Funday

06-08-2012, 05:29 PM

Are you dropping the Stifles Sunday Funday? I can understand the more aggro approach to this deck but I can't feel comfortable compromising from the disuprtion base. It's a delicate balance before turning the deck into UR Delverish fast creatures, burn and counters. There's something more to RUG than to Zoo decks with blue and to UR delver decks and it's important not to lose that edge while trying to improve it. Yet, I'd like to discover how Apes would turn out.

Yes I'm dropping the stifles. My spell base is:

4 brainstorm
4 daze
4 force of Will
4 fire/ice
3 spell pierce
4 lightning bolt
2 ponder

Yes, I know, just 2 ponders. Like I said, I have adopted a more aggro strategy as any combo deck is getting tougher and tougher to beat and you always need an early clock. Mongoose is obviously very good against control decks as they take a while to establish their board and shroud is crucial. Against fair creature decks, you have fire/ice and bolt to dispatch of early critters. Against combo, fire/ice can be used to ice a land essentially buying us more time while we beat them with dudes (also as Force of Will fodder). Currently, I agree that fire/ice is underrated and needs more testing. I think the underlying factor that makes it good is that it's a burn spell that's blue.

ultra_a

06-08-2012, 06:14 PM

Hi guys :wink:

I'd have some probably 64+ ( could be 100+ though) tourney and gonna play RUG
List is as following

// Lands
4 Volcanic Island
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
3 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Nimble Mongoose

// Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
1 Dismember
2 Thought Scour

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 4 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Mind Harness

I expect meta will be smth like this
Lets say for aroung 80 ppl ( numbers approx)
7-9 Delver Blade ( pretty much exact list as in top4 BOM)
5-6 Sneak
5-6 TES ( mb 1 or 2 ants)
2-3 Reanim
2-3 Dredge
5-7 Maverick
5 Loam + Junk
5 Mirror
3 Elves
3 Burn
3 UR Burn
3 Team America ( heavy)
5 UW Miracle
5 Merfolk
3 Goblins
around 5 counterbalance decks ( including thopters etc)
+ some random like 1-2 MUD, 1-2 lands, mb bant etc for the rest

So i think
a) Forked Bolt isnt the card to play at all
b) flusterstorm is insane, basically who has one in any sort of mirror or against combo - wins
c) no sulfur elementals, coz no significant number of mavericks
d) mind harness seems not that good, what would you suggest? crypt isnt necessary, rough/tumble kills geese, eartquake does it too
vortex costs RR...
e) and finally - i wouldnt ever play without thought scour, because in that case geese just dont work, at all
f) Grip cant be countered, so its by far the best to deal with batterskull. at that time 3 mana shouldnt be the problem

Can you help me get this round? I'm a bit stuck :frown:

ps. mb pithing needle somewhere? tops, sneak, vial etc..

Telperion

06-08-2012, 07:20 PM

ultra_a

06-09-2012, 04:23 AM

I would play UR delver in that meta all day, and pack some revoker/vortex in the board. Goose looks terrible in that meta because even the delver blade deck isn't reliant on the swords to control the board. At the very least, I support the cutting of snare, it's awful right now.

Its fine, but at 1st i want to play RUG ( its some kind of test, nvm), and 2nd - there are no snares here ;p And at last - i hate UR in any way i can possibly hate smth, lol

Tammit67

06-09-2012, 09:14 PM

JJ-JKidd

06-10-2012, 10:35 AM

Top 4'd a 6 round local today at Alternate Universes Blue Bell outside of Philadelphia with RUG. 3 forked bolts, and an ooze over goyf were good all day. Did not miss the snares.

Rd1: Beat Mark with UR delver
Rd2: Beat Mono green cloudpost/eldrazi despite not registering wasteland (opponent top 8'd)
Rd3: Loss to Will with Maverick (opponent top 8'd)
Rd4: Beat Matt Elias with RUG
Rd5: Beat Eric Pigeon with Dredge
Rd6: Loss to Avery with Nic Fit (opponent top 8'd)

Avery wanted to play it out to help a friend. My breakers put me in the top 8 regardless.

Top 8: 2 RUG delver, Maverick, Nic Fit, Aggro loam, Elf combo, Sneak and Show, Mono green cloudpost

Top 8: Beat Avery with Nic Fit. He had some very awkward hands/mulligans and delver+pierce+stifle sealed it.

Top 4 split.

Thoughts: Pierce+stifle=good. Gilded drake similarly amazing.

Congrats on the finish. What was your list btw?

Tested with UW Miracle, I had no Stifles (3 Pierces in place of it) and ran 3 Apes, 4 Geese, 4 Goyf and 4 Delvers.

Based on the testing I can infer the following:

1. Two versions of Miracle UW were tested. One with the CBTop with no Snaps and no Ponders, and Snapcaster and Ponder version with no CB Main. In the CBTop version, I had like a 3:1 win loss ratio in my favor every 4 games pre board. But when my test- mate switched to the Snapcaster version, the ratio was 2:2 every 4 games. The "body" that SCM brings to block dudes is really a huge thing, plus the ability to flash-back StP.

2. A resolved Elspeth represents an uphill climb. RUG deck can survive a resolved JTMS but not a resolved Elspeth.

3. A turn 1 top is almost always a must-counter. Although I havent tested the Needles bec we only tested pre-board.

4. In cases where Elspeth resolved, Forked Bolt did its job in clearing away them tokens but I am still unsure if I would re-up the Forked Bolts (for the Nth time).

5. Kird Ape gives the deck speed which is important, but not that NECESSARY against a slow deck like UW Miracle.

I will test with that deck again and I am going to try -3 Apes, +3 Stifles and see which one is better suited for that SCM version, which was an even 2:2 MU.

Tammit67

06-10-2012, 10:49 AM

Congrats on the finish. What was your list btw?

4 trop
3 Volc
7 Fetch
4 Waste

4 Goose
4 delver
3 goyf
1 ooze

4 stifle
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
4 force
4 daze
3 pierce
4 Lightning bolt
3 forked bolt
1 dismember

SB:
4 Grafdigger’s cage
1 Ooze
3 submerge
1 grudge
2 Gilded drake
2 Sulfur elemental
2 Pyroblast

Against miracle, while top is a problem, I usually am able to let it go if I can't daze/pierce it. Forcing it is too much IMO

Deviruchi

06-11-2012, 05:20 AM

Is this a common thing to have so few or even 0 Snare? I want to test a lot in a few days and I would like to know what kind of build expect during major tournaments.

Vandalize

06-11-2012, 10:19 AM

f) Grip cant be countered, so its by far the best to deal with batterskull. at that time 3 mana shouldnt be the problem.

Ancient Grudge much?

Tammit67

06-11-2012, 11:51 AM

Is this a common thing to have so few or even 0 Snare? I want to test a lot in a few days and I would like to know what kind of build expect during major tournaments.

Recently they have been cut in a lot of builds in favor of pierce and more burn. Your mileage may vary

xfxf

06-11-2012, 06:13 PM

Is this a common thing to have so few or even 0 Snare? I want to test a lot in a few days and I would like to know what kind of build expect during major tournaments.

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. :laugh:

Mark Sun

06-11-2012, 06:37 PM

Recently they have been cut in a lot of builds in favor of pierce and more burn. Your mileage may vary

Yeah, I'm playing 4 Stifle and 3 Spell Pierce and liking it as well. I might be crazy, Matt, but I think I want 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder all the time.

Tammit67

06-11-2012, 07:56 PM

Yeah, I'm playing 4 Stifle and 3 Spell Pierce and liking it as well. I might be crazy, Matt, but I think I want 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder all the time.

The 4th ponder would be very, very welcome. I literally cut it since it was the first card I found while almost handing in my list. It is a mistake to cut.

Grizzly_Bear

06-12-2012, 09:55 AM

What's your SB-strategy for the mirror these days? ;)

Arsenal

06-12-2012, 10:40 AM

Submerge, REB, and Scavagening Ooze for me. I typically board out Force of Will, Forked Bolt, and some number of Daze/Stifle/Pierce. Submerge is really great here due to the high number of fetches your RUG opponent runs, REB kills Delver and counters pivotal blue spells, and Ooze can gain you crucial life points all while keeping your opponent off threshold.

With that being said, I fully expect to see the same cards come in for my opponent versus me. There's nothing more deflating than cracking a fetchland and getting my Goyf submerged, or losing a counter war because my opponent's REB > my conditional countermagic.

JJ-JKidd

06-12-2012, 10:48 AM

Done testing with UW Miracle again. My list btw, for reference:

2 Wooded Foothills
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose

4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Ponder
2 Forked Bolt
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
2 Thought Scour
3 Daze
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare

Sideboard:

3 Submerge
2 REB
2 BEB
2 Pithing Needle
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Guilded Drake

The UW Miracle version, was again not the CB type but it had 2 MD Humility along with Snapcasters and Ponders. Pre-board went 3-1 in my favor. Now, Stifling the Miracle trigger is really the way to go IMHO. Spell Pierce also helped a lot for Planeswalkers.

However, it was really interesting that I went 1-4 after boarding. During SB it was: -3 Daze, -2 Snare, - 1 Forked Bolt in favor of +2 REB, +2 Needle and 2 Surgical Extraction. He boarded in 3 Surgicals, 2 BEB and 2 Path to Exiles and 2 Disenchants.

During those 4 losses, he always managed to resolve an Elspeth which I had no answer for. I dont know if I am playing the deck wrongly post-board but early Path to Exiles on Delvers, and Goyfs were enough for him to stem the early pressure and cause me to lose.

He also had Snapcasters and Factories which made my Geese a sitting duck early on and long enough for him to resolve a Miracled Terminus, Elspeth, and the like.

Opening hands were also not that good. I always mulled to 6 (on the play) during those losses which obv did not help.

Thinking of upping the Needle to 3 as a result.

Arsenal

06-12-2012, 11:51 AM

Decks that are dedicated to removing creatures (many Miracle lists look to do just that with Terminus, StP, Vedelkan Shackles, etc) will have game versus us as we only run 12 creatures. 12. And only 4 of them protect themselves, meaning we need to use our countermagic to protect our non-Shroud creatures + use countermagic to stop opponent's bombs.

Blitzbold

06-12-2012, 12:51 PM

UW Miracle feat. CB seems to be even worse for us. This is definitely not an MU I am looking forward to play against. However, this might be where Sulfuric Vortex could shine again. If I only got time to test as much as I want to.

dsck

06-12-2012, 12:55 PM

However, it was really interesting that I went 1-4 after boarding. During SB it was: -3 Daze, -2 Snare, - 1 Forked Bolt in favor of +2 REB, +2 Needle and 2 Surgical Extraction. He boarded in 3 Surgicals, 2 BEB and 2 Path to Exiles and 2 Disenchants.

I would board out -2 Forked Bolt. Bring in +2 REB

Your opponent cant resolve a humility/planeswalker through daze and pierce when you wasteland and stifle him. Having pressure and snares/rebs for snapcasters is important. 1 Basic land in main for paths might be techy and worth it. I would much rather have it than Taiga unless you have Oozes.

Also Needles are completely idiotic and not worth it.

Arsenal

06-12-2012, 01:03 PM

My observation re: RUG vs. Miracle is that Miracle runs enough early game removal so that even if they get Stifled and/or Wasted, they can just naturally draw into enough land to start casting bombs while RUG is desperately cantripping into a threat. And this isn't taking into account CounterTop, just the basic "kill everything + 4cc bomb" shell.

Blitzbold

06-12-2012, 01:32 PM

Also Needles are completely idiotic and not worth it.

Needles are really good against them. Shutting down Top stops their ability to play Terminus during your turn besides Brainstorm. Also, Top is one of the main reasons why a tempo deck can loose this match.

Needling a Planeswalker after loosing a counterwar over it -or which slipped through because soft counters often don't do enough against a deck with a healthy amount of basics- solves this problem as well.

TBryant23

06-12-2012, 01:47 PM

I like your list, but isn't stifle something that you want 4 or 0 of?

Tammit67

06-12-2012, 04:14 PM

What's your SB-strategy for the mirror these days? ;)

Force and pierce out all day. Bring in every single creature/submerge/reb in the board. I like stifle in the mirror but it might not be worth it to others. Dismember is insane in the mirror. Loam is also decent.
Usually it revolves around ooze/goyf as delvers die left and right or someone getting wasted/stifled out in my experience

JJ-JKidd

06-12-2012, 09:18 PM

I would board out -2 Forked Bolt. Bring in +2 REB

Your opponent cant resolve a humility/planeswalker through daze and pierce when you wasteland and stifle him. Having pressure and snares/rebs for snapcasters is important. 1 Basic land in main for paths might be techy and worth it. I would much rather have it than Taiga unless you have Oozes.

Also Needles are completely idiotic and not worth it.

A spell which costs 1 is idiotic against UW when it hits the following:?

Senseis
Factory
Elspeth
Jace

And the Wasteland + Stifle strategy to cripple their manabase seems odd (and "idiotic and not worth it" IMHO) for a deck that runs only two colors and is not that light on mana. You also need the Stifles for Terminus I must add, while Wasteland is primarily aimed at Factories.

Re the Stifle count, I wanted it as a 4-of but I would still have to determine which spell would be cut. Either I join the no-Snare bandwagon, which would give me another flex slot, and add another Ponder, Forked Bolt or Spell Pierce or Daze.

Mandalay

06-12-2012, 11:14 PM

if you want to use needle for UW and for other decks, i suggest you make it 3. my question is that for other decks, is it good? against esp maverick? you hit KOTR, Mom, ooze, equipments. for sneaky tell you hit sneak and and grisel.. for esper, sfm and equipments. for rug you hit nothing. for combo storm you also hit none. but i agree if meta is uw and maverick, needle maybe good.

dsck

06-13-2012, 12:21 AM

A spell which costs 1 is idiotic against UW when it hits the following:?

Senseis
Factory
Elspeth
Jace

I personally enjoy bolting factories, using pierces/dazes on 4cc spells and let my opponents durdle with sensei's top.

If I was UW player and my rug opponent lays needle I would fist pump. Basically mulligan to 6 and you used your turn for nothing, timewalked your opponent I could say.

And the Wasteland + Stifle strategy to cripple their manabase seems odd (and "idiotic and not worth it" IMHO) for a deck that runs only two colors and is not that light on mana. You also need the Stifles for Terminus I must add, while Wasteland is primarily aimed at Factories.

Last I checked they run 8 fetches and bunch of nonbasics, do you tap out with stifle in your hand? Do you know what the basic idea of this deck is?

Terminus is strong, some rug players play more thought scours and pierces now and those help some. 4x Force might be good as well to counter that critical wrath effect. RUG doesnt have that many creatures after all so its hard to keep some as backup in your hand.

JJ-JKidd

06-13-2012, 02:25 AM

I personally enjoy bolting factories, using pierces/dazes on 4cc spells and let my opponents durdle with sensei's top.

If I was UW player and my rug opponent lays needle I would fist pump. Basically mulligan to 6 and you used your turn for nothing, timewalked your opponent I could say.

Last I checked they run 8 fetches and bunch of nonbasics, do you tap out with stifle in your hand? Do you know what the basic idea of this deck is?

Terminus is strong, some rug players play more thought scours and pierces now and those help some. 4x Force might be good as well to counter that critical wrath effect. RUG doesnt have that many creatures after all so its hard to keep some as backup in your hand.

Some only play 4 Tundra and 1 Karakas which I wouldnt say is a bunch. Its gut feel sometimes with the deck, in case you dont know. I dont tap out if I have a Stifle and Wasteland in hand on the play. But if I have Delver or Goose and Daze and Stifle on the play, id rather put the early pressure than Stone Rain-ing them.

And did I say that mulligan-ing for Needle is essential? :eek:

dionykos

06-13-2012, 05:23 AM

xfxf

06-13-2012, 06:04 AM

JJ-JKidd

06-13-2012, 07:03 AM

I think what dsck is saying is that needle isn't a good tempo card in this MU. In early game, you want to drop a threat/cantrip to it/stifle, and tapping for needle isnt a good idea. There's a good chance that needle will sit in your hand waiting for its turn, and will eventually come into play too late. And later on, if they managed to cast Jace through wasteland/stifle/pierce/daze/fow/reb and are still safe in life, you already lost.

I agree with that. TT shouldn't try to control in this MU, it has to stay a tempo deck. However, there is still one issue to adress in this MU (especially on the draw) : counterbalance which is quite awful when we can't drop enough guys early.

So if Needle is not the right option against UW, what should be the correct one? In my case, will -2 Needle, +1 Pierce, +1 FoW suffice? Im referring at cases of a resolved Walker ie Elspeth or JTMS because, really, you cannot expect 100% that they will never resolve one. There will still be instances where Pierces and other counters will not suffice.

JJ-JKidd

06-13-2012, 07:08 AM

Even if you deploy enough early threats they can wipe the board with Terminus and then land a CB. In my testing the situation came up where I took the UW down to 1-2 life before they stabilized with a Terminus following up with a CB. I just pick up my cards when that happens :)

Could probably be resolved by tinkering the count of Forked Bolt and Chain Lightning? Like if you have 2 Forked Bolt and 1 Chain Lightning, switching the count to 1 Forked Bolt, 2 Chain Lightning will deal that last point or two of damage.

Mandalay

06-13-2012, 07:14 AM

Could probably be resolved by tinkering the count of Forked Bolt and Chain Lightning? Like if you have 2 Forked Bolt and 1 Chain Lightning, switching the count to 1 Forked Bolt, 2 Chain Lightning will deal that last point or two of damage.

i currently have 3 chain lightning and 0 forked bolt. agree that chain provides more damage can finish opponent better. for plainswalkers try pierce + surgical on them.

rancOr_

06-13-2012, 08:16 PM

About the whole p needle stuff etc. I would not board in cards like that(same as surgical),as I agree they are virtual cda and way too situational.. Why bother with those when you have some of the best cards availible against them?Your best cards PB will always be reb,spell pierce and spell snare.

mike1987

06-14-2012, 02:54 AM

With regards to FOW, is 3 or 4 copies better? Since we are already running so many conditional counterspells, isn't it harder and less effectively to use FOW?

Awaclus

06-14-2012, 04:43 AM

With regards to FOW, is 3 or 4 copies better? Since we are already running so many conditional counterspells, isn't it harder and less effectively to use FOW?
I like running four copies, because having one in hand is always nice and having two is never a problem.

ShiftyKapree

06-14-2012, 09:17 AM

So if the Miracle decks continue to grow in popularity, whats our gameplan? I guess K-Grip instead of Ancient Grudge? Counterbalance is one piece of the deck I fear because if they land it early and we don't have delver on board or mongoose were kind of screwed. Im not worried about SnT decks as much because I board in 3 SP and 2 REB which is fine for me. Do we play EE now for the tokens, so many questions I feel need to be adressed with answers. Otherwise I can see this deck falling out of favor.

Tammit67

06-14-2012, 12:19 PM

Miracles decks dislike stifle and pierce and losing land drops and nimble mongoose. I don't see the problem.

Run 4 of waste+stifle+goose+pierce and with everything else standard, they have a difficult time

xfxf

06-15-2012, 09:17 AM

Atog

06-15-2012, 03:10 PM

Played today in a small local tournament (11 players i think) for 4 rounds. Finished for 3-1 and 2nd place. Rounds went like this:

R1: Mirror 2-0
R2: Zoo (was a budget version) 2-1
R3: UW-terminus control 2-0
R4: Death and taxes 0-2

Played pretty standard list with spell pierces, thought scours and in "flex slots" dismember and forked bolt. This time i managed to avoid Tombstalkers, so dismember wasn't that good, but managed to still do something. Sideboard was great, rought // tumble was awesome, netting 1-for-3 against zoo and DaT and so were mind harness in mirror, stealing opponents tarmogoyf for enought time to win race. Need to test thought scours more, couple times they were handy after pondering or brainstorming, i guess they would do something in uw-terminus matchup too if would have showed but no. Gonna test and cut forked bolt and dismember for couple chain lightning and see how they work.

ImpinAintEasy

06-15-2012, 03:11 PM

I think UW has enough problems with the rest of the field to become popular enoguh to supress RUG. Also it's not a terrible matchup. The biggest problem is when they have the CB-Top lock. But some lists don't even play Counterbalance. Also you can always disrupt them with Stifle, Pierce and play your threats one by one to dodge Terminus. Mongoose is great here. It's a challenging match-up true, but I don't think the deck will be strong and popular to push our RUG (I'm also trying to push with it and I still find RUG more reliable than UW Control in general :).

The key in the matchup is not to get counter happy. Simply save your counters for their major threats: Counterbalance (if they run it), Entreat the Angels, Jace. The nice thing about terminus is it puts your dudes in your library again. Don't over extend, let terminus resolve, wash, rinse and repeat. Also, if you are running Thought Scour, it's pretty techy to put their top in the gy after they exchange it for terminus.

Trust me, unless you are about to win next turn, wasting counters on Terminus means you are doing it wrong. This matchup is one of the few where being a heavy beatdown deck isn't all necessary, they don't run enough threats for us to be nervous about.

I am the brainwasher

06-15-2012, 05:42 PM

I am somewhat leaning towards playing 1 or 2 Envelops in the sideboard. Might be too cute, but countering a S&T or Terminus/Entreat might be huge, plus its blue.

Mark Sun

06-15-2012, 05:45 PM

I am somewhat leaning towards playing 1 or 2 Envelops in the sideboard. Might be too cute, but countering a S&T or Terminus/Entreat might be huge, plus its blue.

I've been playing Envelop for a while (or rather, bringing it back from my UW Landstill days). I've only played one tournament with it but a second would be very tempting. It's one decent answer to SneakShow's Sol lands, mid-late game, and so forth.

Koby

06-15-2012, 06:02 PM

Would Negate be off base here as a similar approach to Envelop?

I am the brainwasher

06-15-2012, 06:32 PM

Negate is a bit too costy IMO. 2 Mana opens you up to a lot of problems you are trying to avoid since the decks ever existing luxury of having CC1 answers for CCx cards.
Spell Pierce might be practically the same in most games, but really isn't, so I am leaning towards Envelop.

If anyone's interested, here's my current list I use for my testing:

7 Fetch
3 Trop
4 Volc
4 Waste

4 Delver
4 Goose
2(!) Goyf

4 Ponder
4 BS

3 Pierce
2 Snare
4 Daze
4 FoW

4 Stifle

4 Bolt
1 F/I
1 Dismember
1 Forked Bolt

Sideboard:

1 REB
1 PB
1 Envelop

1 Krip

3 SE
1 Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage

1 Dismember
2 Rough//Tumble

1 Sulfur Elemental

2 Mind Harness

As unsorted as this looks, it really isn't. As far as my testing goes, I like how all those 1-offs work out in terms of beeing able to relativeley reliabe beat nearly every archetype that might cross your path right now. Nic Fukc is annoying though.

Blitzbold

06-16-2012, 05:47 AM

4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponder missing from the list I guess? I like the list, but I am not sure if Spell Snare is needed - or even good enough at the moment.

I am the brainwasher

06-16-2012, 06:07 AM

Yep, forgot those:confused:
Spell Snare is still important and I can't stress that enough. As amazing as Spell Pierce is right now, Spell snare is a card that has no equivalent in form of Burn or other "soft-counters" when it comes down to a lot of situations.
I saw myself boarding out a few and wanting less currently, so I gone down to 2 from 3, but going below that is something I would definetly not recommend.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

06-16-2012, 03:39 PM

Fettergeist.

Gunseng

06-16-2012, 04:46 PM

Fettergeist.

Such a silly name. To a German this reads like "fat ghost".

I am the brainwasher

06-16-2012, 09:12 PM

Fettergeist.

Might someone light me up here? I don't have even the slightest idea what this should be meant as a response to whats beeing said lateley.

mike1987

06-17-2012, 02:39 AM

Currently this is my decklist:

4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded foothills
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
1 Island

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
3 Spell pierce
3 Stifle
2 Spell Snare
4 Lightning bolt
1 Fire/Ice

4 Ponder
1 Forked Bolt

I am still comtemplating whether to add in a couple of thought scour and maybe the last piece of stifle and if i do, what cards should i replace them with. Suggestions anyone? Thanks.

cheerios

06-17-2012, 02:44 AM

Ziveeman

06-18-2012, 01:57 PM

I got 70th at the SCG: Invitational this past weekend, going 4-3-1 in the Legacy portion and 29th at the Open, going 6-2-1.

My Legacy matchups were:

Day 1 - Invitational
Rd. 1 - RUG Delver - 2-0
Rd. 2 - Team America - 2-1
Rd. 3 - BUG Control - 2-1
Rd. 4 - BUG Control - 2-1

Day 2 - Invitational
Rd. 1 - Maverick - 0-2
Rd. 2 - Esper Stoneblade - 1-1-1
Rd. 3 - Goblins - 1-2
Rd. 4 - RUG Delver - 0-2

Yeah, Day 2 was rough. I somehow won more Standard matches than Legacy matches even though I don't play Standard...oh well.

My Legacy Open Performance was this
Rd. 1 - BUG Control - 2-1
Rd. 2 - Reanimator - 2-0
Rd. 3 - RUG Delver - 1-2
Rd. 4 - Tezzeret (Adam Prosak's decklist) - 1-2
Rd. 5 - Burn - 2-1
Rd. 6 - Dredge - 2-1
Rd. 7 - Maverick - 2-0
Rd. 8 - UW Miracles - 2-0
Rd. 9 - UR Delver - ID into Top 32

My decklists between both days only varied slightly, but here is my list

Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose / 3 Nimble Mongoose + 1 Snapcaster Mage for the Invitational
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
2 Forked Bolt
2 Gitaxian Probe

Lands
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Pyroblast
4 Submerge
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tormod's Crypt

The Snapcaster was added last minute for the Invitational because I expected a lot of Sneak Show and since Nimble Mongoose is subpar in that matchup, I felt getting extra value out of my Spell Pierces and Stifles might be better. Oddly in 17 rounds of Legacy I never faced a single Sneak Show deck, even though it was indeed everywhere. I also cut Spell Snares to make room for Spell Pierces maindeck instead of sideboard which I felt was a good choice for the Invitational. Gitaxian Probes were nice too. When you cast it turn one on game one and your opponent's reaction is "But I don't want you to see my hand...", you know it's a pretty nice card. Plus, it allows you to skimp on land too since it's free (I wished I had cut a land for a third Probe because I continually got flooded on land).

I could do a tournament report but it's not very interesting, plus after awhile the rounds just kinda weld together. Of course, I could answer more specific questions about the matchups or card choices.

useL

06-18-2012, 03:47 PM

What was the main problem against Goblins? I felt that they ran me over at GP Malmo's side event a few weeks ago. 6 burn-spells just wasnt enough and also the new Cave. Luckily it's rarely seen in my meta.

Did you not feel that the Spell Snare is needed in the RUG matchup? Goyf seems to be the one thing to handle (that and Ooze postboard)

Borealis

06-18-2012, 04:26 PM

I also had some trouble fighting Goblins at the Worcester SCG a couple weekends ago, but the reason I lost was because I punted. It's a tough matchup, especially if they know what they are doing and have an optimized list, but it's not particularly good or popular right now. A 7th burn spell could help, but that's as far as I'd go toward making it better.

On Spell Snare: I cut as well because I was down to 2, and I didn't feel like 2 is the right number at all. You want to draw Snare early in the game, and running less than 3 feels wrong. When it's good, it's very good, but when it's bad it's very bad. But it's not going to change that much in the mirror, since you might draw it after Goyf/Ooze has resolved, or they might just counter it anyway, or cast Goyf when you tap out. Submerge/Mind Harness, Life from the Loam, and tight play are still your best bets against the mirror. And unless your meta is crawling with Stoneblade and Countertop Decks, I can't see the justification of holding onto 2-3 cards that are bad in every other relevant match right now.

I'm still running STifle (down to 3 now), but I might just switch back to the Costa-style list with heavy counterspells. (4 Daze, 4 Pierce, 4 Force) Also, Chain Lightnings are definitely back in my deck right now.

Mandalay

06-18-2012, 10:50 PM

what you guys think of jace phantasm (m13)?

u

flying

gets +4/+4 if opponent has 10 or more cards in gy.

1/1

like that he flies which gives him evasion early on compared to geese which only has shroud. plus with our scours, i think it would not that be hard for this guy to be 5/5.

Ziveeman

06-18-2012, 11:52 PM

Goblins was a problem mainly because of Cavern. It's easy to Force a Lackey and stunt their tempo for a couple of turns, so them having Cavern forces us to have a burn spell, which is more difficult to find. We split the first two games but I lost game three indirectly because I chose to keep a Bolt off a Ponder to kill a Lackey instead of keeping a Wasteland and trading my Mongoose with his Lackey. The game went much longer, and I managed to stabilize with two Goyfs and a Mongoose and get him down to 5 life but he topdecks a Relic of Progenitus to wipe me out. The whole game Cavern was doing a lot of work since I kept drawing into Force of Wills (I even boarded in Sulfur Elementals just to board out Spell Pierces) and I was forced to let his Ringleaders resolve, Siege-Gangs, etc.

As for Spell Snare in the RUG matchup, I don't feel it's right to have a card that only answers 4 of their cards. Submerge takes card of these creatures in the matchup anyway. Nimble Mongoose is the real threat in the matchup. I lost two of the mirrors because of Mongoose and triple Submerge post-board. I couldn't draw any Submerges to save my life.

Borealis

06-19-2012, 11:55 AM

Agreed Ziveeman, although we only run 3-4 Forces, and 6-7 burn spells usually, so it's still easier to find a burn spell in most cases. Either way, Gobbos is definitely not a positive matchup for us, and if it was more popular I could definitely see running the 2-3 Forked Bolts that help against the other creature decks too. I run 2x Mind Harness and 3x Submerge in my board, so at least I have the Harnesses. I'm also considering cutting the 3rd REB for a BEB, or posssibly a Flusterstorm. BEB is great against gobbos obviously, but Flusterstorm seems like a better REB in the combo matchups, which is more of my concern. But honestly, it's GOBLINS, and I can't imagine seeing it more frequently than the Tier 1 decks that we should be more prepared for. Rogue strategies keep the balance in Legacy, and you just can't beat them all.

Jace's Phantasm is an interesting card, but ultimately I think it's not good enough for Legacy RUG. It's slower than Nimble Mongoose, and you have no control over their graveyard outside of reactive spells and like 2 Thought Scour. Thought Scour is great for Mongoose, since casting it nets you 3 more cards toward threshhold, whereas it's only going to add 2 to your opponent's yard. Even if Jace's Phantasm was looking at our Graveyard, you'd need another Thought Scour or roughly 3 more turns to make it an actual threat. If it had hexproof and flying, it would be worth it, but just being a 1/1 flyer until turn 7-10 (or never) is not good enough to improve our clock. Giving your opponent control of the ability weakens it too much. Delver is light years ahead of this card.

Ziveeman

06-19-2012, 01:02 PM

Yeah, I couldn't find a Forked Bolt to save my life versus Goblins. I was running 3 Forked Bolt before this weekend and I was definitely cursing myself for cutting it down to 2. After 17 rounds of Magic I didn't face a single Sneak Show deck!

I am the brainwasher

06-19-2012, 01:11 PM

Someone had to start this anyway, so I'll make the first step:

http://s14.postimage.org/o901kpmpp/wtf.jpg

I am disappointed by Lightning Bolt.
I recognized that in the creature-based MU's, I want Forked Bolt/Fire to get a 2to1 and Dismember/Ice to deal with Batterskull, KotR and Scavenging Ooze (Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker etc. playing the 2nd fiddle) way more often than I wanted Bolt.
There is no such competetive deck right now that has a creature with toughness 3 that needs to be handled.
Against Control or Combo, Lightning Bolt is decent, but gets boarded out quite often since you need the space for more potent cards.

Where does that leave Lightning Bolt? Lightning Bolt has become more of a card that does the best job when it is thrown at face. Nearly every other usage of it, would have been done better by a replacement, nameley Fire/Ice, Forked Bolt, Dismember and last but not least, Spell Snare.
Everyone remembers those games where a topdecked Bolt sealed the deal, you burned out the control deck that left you no chance to win the game with your creatures and the EoT3toyaface to fill up Threshold to stab with Mongeese saved your butt? Great, so do I.
On the other hand, I also remember a lot situations (especially lateley) where I don't wanted to see the Bolt but another Removal/Burnspell, which costed me games.

Top8 candidate Simon Rouze´ (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8341&iddeck=60779) did the same thing (well, not playing Stifle is still meh IMO) and I think I got the thought behind that pretty clear due to my testing as off lateley.
Discussion and Crticism is highly apprecieated. I got the impression that Canadian Threshold is real rocket science right now to constantly keep up with the meta.

Water_Wizard

06-19-2012, 03:44 PM

If you're not running Lightning Bolt, than the only reason to run red is Forked Bolt, Fire/Ice and cards out of the board? Why not switch to BUG? Seems black adds better removal (Ghastly Demise / Darkblast / Go For the Throat / Snuff Out) and discard, plus some good sideboard options (Engineered Plague, Diabolic Edict, etc.).

I am the brainwasher

06-19-2012, 06:51 PM

Koby

06-19-2012, 07:10 PM

That's a line of thought I was wondering too. Without Lightning Bolt, what reason is there to be playing Mountains? Lightning Bolt makes the deck work quickly. Without it, you need more disruption (usually to the hand) in order to buy enough time for the creatures to finish the player off.

It's an interesting thought process, but I think this deck needs Lightning Bolt to be competitive. Forked Bolt, not so much.

Mark Sun

06-19-2012, 07:12 PM

It is not about trying to make a different deck out of Threshold, it's about the correct configuartion for the actual meta, which is not the easiest right now. So pls stop wasting time of both of us here and say something that is at least a bit useful or go troll somewhere else.

I will preface this by stating that Water_Wizard could have presented his point a little bit better. It does have some validation though. If you do cut Lightning Bolts, does having Forked Bolt or Fire/Ice, and Sulfur Elemental/Sulfuric Vortex/REB out of the board make the red part of RUG worth it? A quick comparison of black sideboard choices does give us Dread of Night to act as a pseudo Sulfur Elemental effect, and of course the aforementioned removal. The only thing that I would miss dearly is REB and perhaps Ancient Grudge a bit.

I do agree with you though, Lightning Bolt has been lackluster and I've actually been looking into cutting them myself. I want to make space for a distribution of 3 Spell Pierce/4 Stifle maindeck with the flexibility of playing Fire/Ice (currently that so my blue count is reasonable) and Dismember. Let me take this a step further, though, by saying that the other card I haven't been liking recently is Tarmogoyf. I'd rather have something else there entirely.

I am the brainwasher

06-19-2012, 08:10 PM

I do agree with you though, Lightning Bolt has been lackluster and I've actually been looking into cutting them myself. I want to make space for a distribution of 3 Spell Pierce/4 Stifle maindeck with the flexibility of playing Fire/Ice (currently that so my blue count is reasonable) and Dismember. Let me take this a step further, though, by saying that the other card I haven't been liking recently is Tarmogoyf. I'd rather have something else there entirely.

I don't like Goyf that much either. I have gone down to 2.
The problem right now is that there are a lot of difficult MU's where you want to have a completeley different configuration of Snare/Pierce and a variety of Removal or none at all. The situation where you were good to go with your exact same 60/75's every single week/month has changed dramatically and the deck is confronted with a problem it never had before: How do I adapt?
I have not 100% decided which suits my playstyle the best, but IMO the main decision comes down to playing a straight list that is stronger in specific MU's, while beeing weaker to a huge variety of decks, or a list that has allover more equal chances, but is also not as strong in specific MU's.
The list I posted a page ago is definetly the 2nd type. I could see a straight list beeing strong as well, but I am not that convinced that those will do as good since Legacy is a archetype-farting Tornado right now, which will be uncontrolable when Show and Tell based combo sees lesser play.
Developing the optimal answer-suite Vs. going straight forward.

Mandalay

06-19-2012, 09:00 PM

i have to agree that bug tempo provides more efficient removal and the red cards that u will replace with in favor of seize and iok would be better than lightning bolt and/or other burn spells. re goblins mu, why not board in pyroclasms instead? or firespouts?

jimirynk

06-20-2012, 03:29 AM

why not board in pyroclasms instead? or firespouts?

http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MAGPLACHA/roughtumble.jpg

jimirynk

06-20-2012, 03:34 AM

My current SB for my costa style md:
1 grudge
3 crypt
2 rough/tumble
3 pyroblast
3 submerge
2 sulfur elemental
1 life from the loam

useL

06-20-2012, 07:37 AM

My current SB for my costa style md:
1 grudge
3 crypt
2 rough/tumble
3 pyroblast
3 submerge
2 sulfur elemental
1 life from the loam

So no Sneak & Show in your meta?

cheerios

06-20-2012, 08:22 AM

For the guys disappointed with 4 Goyfs, have you guys tried 2 Goyfs and 2 Snaps? So far it has been working for me.

Pherion

06-20-2012, 11:24 AM

For the guys disappointed with 4 Goyfs, have you guys tried 2 Goyfs and 2 Snaps? So far it has been working for me.

Snap still feels mana intensive to me. Then again I think I'm running 17 lands! How often do you have it in hand, and don't have the mana to make it useful?

jimirynk

06-20-2012, 11:37 AM

So no Sneak & Show in your meta?

If I was to change my board to improve the sneak and show mu I would play a catch all before drake:

1 grudge
2 rough/tumble
3 submerge
2 pyroblast
2 disrupt
3 crypt
2 sulfur elemental

Pherion

06-20-2012, 12:25 PM

If I was to change my board to improve the sneak and show mu I would play a catch all before drake:

1 grudge
2 rough/tumble
3 submerge
2 pyroblast
2 disrupt
3 crypt
2 sulfur elemental

Are you saying that you'd side in Disrupt (it's the only difference from you're previous board). I'd say that pyroblast and REB are both superior in every way. They have the same CMC basically (just different color), and they are hard counters for the only target you care about - SnT. Disrupt is like an expensive Daze that cantrips. Between Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors and Lotus Petal, Sneak and Show can power out quite a bit of mana by turn 2-3. Playing around daze is usually just second nature for a good Sneak and Show player, and it's unlikely the extra 1 from disrupt would really make that much difference - my opinion.

I'd suggest running more pyro/REB if you want to keep fighting it on the stack.

jimirynk

06-20-2012, 03:05 PM

Are you saying that you'd side in Disrupt (it's the only difference from you're previous board). I'd say that pyroblast and REB are both superior in every way. They have the same CMC basically (just different color), and they are hard counters for the only target you care about - SnT. Disrupt is like an expensive Daze that cantrips. Between Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors and Lotus Petal, Sneak and Show can power out quite a bit of mana by turn 2-3. Playing around daze is usually just second nature for a good Sneak and Show player, and it's unlikely the extra 1 from disrupt would really make that much difference - my opinion.

I'd suggest running more pyro/REB if you want to keep fighting it on the stack.

I like disrupt because it hits more targets then reb right now, I bring it in vs reanimator, dredge, mirror, any deck with ponder or hand disruption.
Its also great vs countering half a lingering souls.

cheerios

06-20-2012, 07:48 PM

Snap still feels mana intensive to me. Then again I think I'm running 17 lands! How often do you have it in hand, and don't have the mana to make it useful?

I'm playing 18 lands by the way. If I draw it in the starting 7, most of the time I just brainstorm it away; but then again, I also do the same thing with Goyf. I don't feel comfortable tapping out for two mana in my turn. Concerning not having enough mana, it seldom happens. I can always choose to keep 3 lands due to the high number of cantrips thresh plays.

mike1987

06-21-2012, 12:32 AM

To the guys running 18 lands, how is it treating you? Cause i am currently running 19 and i am contemplating on cutting a fetch and increase my stifle count to 4.

Kl'rt

06-21-2012, 02:58 AM

Let me take this a step further, though, by saying that the other card I haven't been liking recently is Tarmogoyf. I'd rather have something else there entirely.

Speaking of not liking 'goyf, check out this first place list of a 103 player tourney in Europe.

http://www.manainfinito.com/2012/coverage/listas-top8-lcl-2012-junio

Zero 'goyfs. Instead there are two Snapcasters and two GSZs.

Kyle

06-22-2012, 11:19 AM

For the guys disappointed with 4 Goyfs, have you guys tried 2 Goyfs and 2 Snaps? So far it has been working for me.

I'm going to try the Mages, as that sounds fun and I always want a goddamn Lightning Bolt back to burn face. The only reason I can think of to not have Snapcaster Mages is because this deck wants to stop at 2 lands in play to fully benefit from Brainstorm, to prevent getting Wastelocked, and because it totally CAN run on two active lands.

Also, love your sig Cheerios.

I am the brainwasher

06-22-2012, 11:31 AM

Latest list (AFAIK) from Moyschewitz as of 3rd of June:

Creatures
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Nimble Mongoose

Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Stifle
2 Dismember
1 Fire/Ice
4 Lightning Bolt

Lands
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Spell Pierce
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Mind Harness
2 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Flusterstorm

Players beeing unimpressed by Goyf seems to draw a line through the whole archetype.
Discuss.

PS
Am I truly the only Threshold player from germany who discusses in this forum? Pls proof me wrong. ;(

useL

06-22-2012, 04:47 PM

I run a main Ooze and one in the board. It has been the nuts for me every single time it enters the battlefield. Great against Miracledecks (snapcaster), RUG (obvious reasons), Maverick, Combo (threshhold for Cabal Ritual etc and locks out Ill-gotten gains) and gets you life when needed. It requires Green mana but that you usually have access to.

I rather play ooze than snapcaster, more benefits and same mana consumtion.

jimirynk

06-22-2012, 10:08 PM

My current list I've been pretty happy with:

// Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze

// Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
2 Thought Scour
1 Dead/Gone

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 Rough/Tumble
SB: 1 Gilded Drake
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge

Water_Wizard

06-22-2012, 10:22 PM

@ brainwasher - could you explain a little bit about your meta? From your discussion of cutting Lightning Bolt earlier in the week and your decklist it looks like you are facing a lot of Stoneblade and Maverick. A few questions about your list:
6 Fetch / 8 Lands - why not the opposite?
2 Dismember - Are you facing down lots of KotRs, Germ tokens, and/or Tombstalkers?
4 Spell Snare - is this for SFM, SCM, Thalia, Ooze, etc?
I'm curious to hear the reason behind your decisions. I think your meta must be very different than mine, because I'm facing lots of combo and I find 4 Spell Pierce essential and oftentimes Spell Snare and Dismember are worthless.

@ jimirynk
Why Dead/Gone, over say, Forked Bolt or Fire/Ice? What creatures do you use the Gone against?
What is your meta like? Do you face off against a lot of swarm decks (Elves, Affinity, Goblins) that make the Rough/Tumble worth it?

Thanks!

jimirynk

06-22-2012, 10:44 PM

@ jimirynk
Why Dead/Gone, over say, Forked Bolt or Fire/Ice? What creatures do you use the Gone against?
What is your meta like? Do you face off against a lot of swarm decks (Elves, Affinity, Goblins) that make the Rough/Tumble worth it?

Thanks!

The gone side is good vs bigger creatures (of coarse) examples grizzelbrand, batterskull germ, tombstalker, blazing archon, dreadnaught, knight, sometimes just opposing goyfs. Its not a personal meta tuned list, this is what I would play in any torn tomorrow.
Rough/tumble is card I bring is vs a lot swarm decks of coarse but I found it to be the best card vs maverick, it stops you from having to submerge 1 drops as aggressively.

Water_Wizard

06-22-2012, 10:50 PM

It is not about trying to make a different deck out of Threshold, it's about the correct configuartion for the actual meta, which is not the easiest right now. So pls stop wasting time of both of us here and say something that is at least a bit useful or go troll somewhere else.

I forgive you, because it appears you are a non-native English speaker and perhaps some of your insults are not meant as such. However, why don't you talk a little bit about your meta rather than saying "Bolt's no good" and "I don't like Tarmogoyf." It seems like you have made a decision (cut 'goyf/bolt and run more dismember/spell snare) and you are uncertain about talking yourself into it, so you are looking for support (some people to say 'Yeah, that's a good idea' or 'I tried it and liked it.'). If you have a gut feeling it's a good decision for your meta, then just test it out. Make the changes and test it out and write back and tell us all about it.

Let me tell you about my meta. I face a lot of combo - S&S, Reanimator, and Belcher. I face small creature decks - Elves, Affinity, and Goblins. I face rouge decks - mono-black, mono-white, etc. I face the mirror. I face burn.

Therefore, I find Goyf to be good because he can block a lot of the small creatures I face.

I also find Lightning Bolt and Forked Bolt to be good, because I can kill problem creatures and oftentimes get a 2:1.

I find Spell Pierce to be good because it allows me to survive against Combo and stops removal vs. random decks.

Dismember would be bad for me because: 1) I rarely face creatures large enough to fully utilize -5/-5, and 2) the life loss would hurt too much vs. swarm decks, Burn, and the mirror.

Spell Snare is also not very good for me. It does nothing against S&S and little against the mirror.

It seems like your meta is different than mine.