[Deck] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

[Water_Wizard]

The gone side is good vs bigger creatures (of coarse) examples grizzelbrand, batterskull germ, tombstalker, blazing archon, dreadnaught, knight, sometimes just opposing goyfs. Its not a personal meta tuned list, this is what I would play in any torn tomorrow.
Rough/tumble is card I bring is vs a lot swarm decks of coarse but I found it to be the best card vs maverick, it stops you from having to submerge 1 drops as aggressively.

Have you tested Gone? Against Griselbrand, it probably doesn't matter, as they are going to draw 7/14 in response and find another way to deploy him/win the game/counter Gone. I imagine Knight would have prop red, although perhaps not (I would rather run Submerge out of the board vs. Knight). 'Nought = Ancient Grudge. Archon, good call. Gone could save the game.

Good call on R/T. I'll give it a try.

[I am the brainwasher]

@ brainwasher - could you explain a little bit about your meta? From your discussion of cutting Lightning Bolt earlier in the week and your decklist it looks like you are facing a lot of Stoneblade and Maverick. A few questions about your list:
6 Fetch / 8 Lands - why not the opposite?
2 Dismember - Are you facing down lots of KotRs, Germ tokens, and/or Tombstalkers?
4 Spell Snare - is this for SFM, SCM, Thalia, Ooze, etc?
I'm curious to hear the reason behind your decisions. I think your meta must be very different than mine, because I'm facing lots of combo and I find 4 Spell Pierce essential and oftentimes Spell Snare and Dismember are worthless.

The list that was shown in my last post is not from me, it is from Fabian Moyschewitz (who is unarguably one of the best players of the deck in europe/allover the globe), don't get that wrong. I'll explain later what my thoughts and decisions are based on in my current list.

[Water_Wizard]

brainwasher - thanks, I'm looking forward to it

My list, at present:
3 Goyf
1 Ooze
4 Delver
4 Mongoose

3 Forked Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Thought Scour

4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

SB:
4 Submerge
4 Tormod's Crypt (I recently bumped it up to 4 because of all the Reanimator)
2 BEB
1 REB
1 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam

As I mentioned above, my list is tuned for combo, namely Reanimator, Sneak and Show, and Belcher, tribal decks, like Elves and Goblins, and 'The Others' as AJ Sacher calls them.

Recently, I cut a Goyf for a 3rd Forked Bolt. I tried running +4 Stifle, - 1 Forked Bolt, -2 Thought Scour, -1 Tarmogofy. I found that was better against Combo, but worst against creature decks and 'The Others.'

The BEB in the board are to help out in the Belcher and Sneak and Show match and against Burn.

I like Ooze main as a MD answer to Reanimator. I'm considering the GSZ package again.

The most underutilized cards in my board are Submerge and Life from the Loam. I could probably cut Submerge down to 3 and replace a slot with Rough/Tumble, Mind Harness, or possibly a 3rd REB/PB. Life from the Loam is for the mirror and I just haven't been facing very much mirror lately.

I'm considering splitting Tormod's Crypt to 2 Crypt / 2 Surgical Extraction because some Reanimator lists run Pithing Needle. If I run a 2/2 split, that's more incentive to run Snapcaster Mage.

brainwasher, looking forward to your response. I'm interested in what decks you're facing and what you're doing to combat them.

[I am the brainwasher]

However, why don't you talk a little bit about your meta rather than saying "Bolt's no good" and "I don't like Tarmogoyf."
I am quite confused at this point. I wrote a more or less accurate decsription why I think that Lightning Bolt is not the card it used to be and why the deck seems to be in a better shape with removal in form of Forked Bolt, F/I and Dismember in general. The whole thrown @ face thing is something that has taken a back seat (even if it is still possible with every card mentioned outside Dismember) and other cards have a greater impact on the games nowadays, nameley situtational countermagic, Stifle and flexible/pseudo removal. I chose the extreme of NoBolt to finally get into some discussion, which was really lackluster for a long time in this thread, even if it was ment to be more about which split of burnspells makes sense right now (pretty much like Snare and Pierce).

@Goyf:
Someone could write a novel about arguing back and forth why it is good to run a specific number of creatures in addition to 4 Geese and Bees. I am not trying unfold that topic completeley (which I propably also couldn't do own by myself), so I can just say why I don't see myself wanting a playset, even 3 copies atm.

-Goyf is manaintensive
A full playset requires you to have constantly (at least) 3 lands on the table to protect wether it, or beeing able to counter effectiveley what you opponent throws in front of you on the following turn. Even worse, you might be forced to run 19 lands.
Why this is not optimal:
The natural CA of Threshold is based upon beeing able to operate on lesser mana than your opponent does and the chance to deny the greater part of the opposing mana-curve. Spells that slip through this strategy, which is enabled mostly by Stifle and Wasteland, are handled by cheap countermagic and burnspells. Every land you place on the table and every land your opponents get, takes a bite out of this exact strategy. Since Innistrad was greatful enough to spend this deck a clock that costs only 1 mana and supports the decks role for obvious reasons, Tarmogoyfs purpose has shrunk.

-different interpretation of the decks role/different meta
As already discussed to death, Threshold (or better RUG at that stage) is capable of achieving the same goals with very different approaches. Both ways of packing more lands and creatures while moving away from Stifle and/or Spell Snare, as well as to count on the manadenial plan and act more as a controlish deck, differ in their effectivity against single MU's and opposing draws.
I stick to the latter, since my experience has shown that this approach is more of a catch-all in comparison. The meta I am playing in is very "healthy" in terms of a rather big variety of different decks and archetypes and beeing prepared for a meta of 60-100 players is something I am not willing to commit myself to completeley, so I stick to what favours me. No disrespect for other approaches included.



It seems like you have made a decision (cut 'goyf/bolt and run more dismember/spell snare) and you are uncertain about talking yourself into it, so you are looking for support.
What is the evidence of this? I haven't made any final decision yet, so I was curious to get to know what other players feel like right now. That's the whole reason to use a forum (maybe outside of faineance.life.net), I guess? I don't feel like I have to justify myself in front of you, or any person here for that.


If you have a gut feeling it's a good decision for your meta, then just test it out. Make the changes and test it out and write back and tell us all about it.
That's what I did so far, which can be red on different sites of the thread. I also wrote a detailed report on a large tourney I did not so well in (for obvious reasons, cheers GL:wink:) once, but dropped the interest in doing so again since I haven't got a single response.
The sad truth is, that this is the chronical illnes of TS. Do well, people listen, whatever bullshit you pack in your report. Have real content and not made Top8, not a single fuck is given.
I think I've learned to deal with that since I registered here and that's fine with me by a large margin. Even if it would be helpful here and there to write reports especially about the tourneys you did not so well in, to become better you know, not to put yourself in the spotlight in front of a internet community.

My meta contains of a lot of Maverick, RUG, Control in form of Miracle Whip, BUG and NicFit and Combo in form of Reanimator and storm-based combo. The rest is filled with every established Legacy that you might have ever heard of.

[useL]

Sounds like your meta is like mine. How have you adapted to this? I also encounter some amount of Painter/Elves and therefor I feel the need to keep on to 6-8 target removal (be it L.Bolt/FI/FB or Dismember)

Right now I run 3 Goyfs but thinking of 2 with more Thought Scour on the side or 4 bolt+3forked.

[Vandalize]

You guys are saying that Tarmogoyf is mana intensive, and a good replacement for it is Green Sun's Zenith and Snapcaster Mage? You've just countered your own argument.

Tarmogoyf is good because he beats fast, and you can't always rely on Delver of Secrets to deliver the punches. The goddamned creature enters the battlefield as a 4/5 for 2 mana, and you're bitching he's bad?

I agree that playing them as a four-of might clog your hand a little, but I'd really prefer 2 Goyfs on the table than 1 Goyf and a Spell Pierce up. The creature by itself has a extremely dangerous clock, and it's a die hard one (when facing non-white decks).

There's a reason why he's one of the best creatures in this whole format, and why he fits this deck so perfectly. Tarmogoyf requires an answer, or it WILL beat your foe to death. It's kind of strange in a deck that always answers, but it's a primordial part of the gameplan taking your opponent's life to 0 (YOU DON'T SAY?). Replacing him with Snapcaster Mage is just stupid, because you'll have a more intensive mana play, that might make some fancy tricks.

[Sturtzilla]

Tarmogoyf is good because he beats fast, and you can't always rely on Delver of Secrets to deliver the punches. The goddamned creature enters the battlefield as a 4/5 for 2 mana, and you're bitching he's bad?

I totally agree. Have you other guys read what this card does? Here I will link it for you... Tarmogoyf. He is viciously under costed and as previously stated, is pretty hard for non-white (I would argue that black decks can deal with him fairly easy too) decks to deal with. One of the key points of RUG Tempo is to race your opponent. So turn one dude and turn two dude. There is no better creature in a generic sense to play in this deck on turn two. Sure there are situational considerations like Scavenging Ooze on turn two versus Reanimator or Dredge (but in these scenarios you have to have some counter magic or hope you aren't just dead). That is arguably better. The clock Goyf alone can apply is part of the reason this deck is so good. I have been playing 4 plus a singleton maindeck Scavenging Ooze. It has been great for me.



Replacing him with Snapcaster Mage is just stupid, because you'll have a more intensive mana play, that might make some fancy tricks.

Ask yourself how often you get Wastelanded. I know that there are games where I fight through on two land alone. Sure there are games where I have 3-4 land. The possibility of having a dead Snapcaster Mage in hand is a reality in this format. You always want to get some solid value of of good old Snappy but in a deck with such a fragile mana base, in a format with loads of Wastes and Stifles, it can be really hard to hit 3 or more land. Or at very least keeping them in play for the right moment. Now if this is the case, you are basically running a strictly poorer version of Ambush Viper, see the lack of Deathtouch. I don't know about you guys, but I wouldn't want to play that card in Legacy. Furthermore, his one toughness is taken down by just about every removal spell in the format. As people have been playing more Forked Bolts, he seems pretty bad to me. Additionally, he does not apply a significant clock like Goyf does. Would you rather Shock, Lightning Bolt, or Flame Javelin your opponent each turn? See Goyf can do all of those (and potentially more, see Lava Axe, etc.) and is harder to deal with, while Snappy can only Shock and likely dies in his first stand off. My opinion would be that if you want to play Snapcaster Mage you should probably play U/R Delver. You have a more sturdy mana base and approximately the same number of spells to sling. The problem will be that unless you have multiple Price of Progresses you will likely lose to RUG resolving a Goyf.

[lordofthepit]

I would argue that an efficient but vanilla beater like Tarmogoyf has been rendered obsolete in many Legacy decks, but this is the clear exception. Virtually no other tier 1 decks play the card anymore (other than Team America, which I haven't seen in forever), but that alone is enough for Goyf to regain his throne as the most played creature in Legacy.

[Water_Wizard]

-Goyf is manaintensive
A full playset requires you to have constantly (at least) 3 lands on the table to protect wether it, or beeing able to counter effectiveley what you opponent throws in front of you on the following turn. Even worse, you might be forced to run 19 lands.


I thought the primary purpose of the 19th land was to fight land destruction in the mirror.



The sad truth is, that this is the chronical illnes of TS. Do well, people listen, whatever bullshit you pack in your report. Have real content and not made Top8, not a single fuck is given.
I think I've learned to deal with that since I registered here and that's fine with me by a large margin. Even if it would be helpful here and there to write reports especially about the tourneys you did not so well in, to become better you know, not to put yourself in the spotlight in front of a internet community.

Could you provide a link to this report?



My meta contains of a lot of Maverick, RUG, Control in form of Miracle Whip, BUG and NicFit and Combo in form of Reanimator and storm-based combo. The rest is filled with every established Legacy that you might have ever heard of.

Thanks for providing information about your meta. This explains why Dismember is good and Goyf is bad. Dismember rocks vs. Maverick, Tombstalker, and NicFit (depending upon the version) and Goyf looks foolish staring down a KotR, creature with prop G, or a Grave Titan.



The natural CA of Threshold is based upon beeing able to operate on lesser mana than your opponent does and the chance to deny the greater part of the opposing mana-curve. Spells that slip through this strategy, which is enabled mostly by Stifle and Wasteland, are handled by cheap countermagic and burnspells. Every land you place on the table and every land your opponents get, takes a bite out of this exact strategy. Since Innistrad was greatful enough to spend this deck a clock that costs only 1 mana and supports the decks role for obvious reasons, Tarmogoyfs purpose has shrunk.

Thanks for explaining this. It makes perfect sense.


You guys are saying that Tarmogoyf is mana intensive...
Tarmogoyf is good because he beats fast


I totally agree.

The Tarmogoyf/non-Tarmogoyf argument needs to be analyzed by match-up. No one is arguing that a 4/5 for 2 mana is too mana intensive.

I'm going to break this into 3 categories:

1) Combo- namely Sneak and Show, Reanimator, and to a lesser extent, Belcher. Both S&S and Reanimator can put a fatty into play on turn 2. With Sneak and Show, this is possible with Sol-Lands or Lotus Petal and Show and Tell, and with Reanimator, it is possible with Entomb and Reanimate/Animate Dead/Exhume. Belcher can go off anytime, including Turn 0 (this is why we run Force of Will, thank goodness). The issue with Goyf in these combo match-ups is tapping out on Turn 2.
Let's say you have the play. Turn 1, you drop a Goose or Delver. Off to a good start. Turn 1, Reanimator drops a Swamp. Let's say you have a Spell Pierce and Daze in hand. Your Turn 2, do you want to tap out to play Goyf? Not really, because your opponent can end-of-turn Entomb. Even if you Daze this, your opponent could still FOW your Daze or make a 2nd turn land-drop and play Careful Study->Reanimate or 2nd Entomb->Reanimate. If Goyf is SCM in this situation, you can port it in at EOT and still have a 2/2 beater.

2) 'Fair' creature decks - decks like Maverick and Nic Fit. Goyf is not that good in these m/us because the second they get a bigger creature, 'Goyf turns into a chump blocker.

3) The rest of the field - 'Goyf is very good. Against decks like UR Delver, Burn, the mirror, etc., a 4/5 body for 2 is amazing. Any m/u we don't have to hold counter magic up, Goyf rocks.

The argument is not made that 'Goyf is bad overall or too mana intensive, there are just certain match-ups where he doesn't shine as much as he once did.

[catmint]

I think Goyf is good vs. combo. I sometimes rather tap out for a turn to get a 3/4 with only FoW instead of playing a 1/1 and leaving spell pierce open

[Tammit67]

Goyf fits what this deck wants perfectly, be a clock that kills the opponent quickly as you naturally cantrip and disrupt your opponent. He is harder to put down, but is critical in a bunch of matchups you cant pretend have been handed over to delver. He is exceptional in the mirror, UR delver, and against random decks.

The reason why other decks have dropped him isn't because he isn't big enough anymore. No, it is because he offers zero utility. A perfect example of this is maverick, who doesn't care so much about spot removal since every creature can both attack and provide disruption.

But that isn't what this deck wants. It wants a clock behind its wall of soft counters and burn. Currently the best 3 creatures for it are Goose (for control), delver (creature/combo), and goyf (creature/combo). Is he the best? No. But he is still unconditionally big most games, and that is all we care about

[Water_Wizard]

Speaking of utility, what role does Scavenging Ooze play in this deck? Albeit slower (than 'Goyf), it does offer utility against many m/u:
Reanimator - permanent answer plus G1 threat plus gives 2 answers vs. needle in games 2/3
Maverick, grows huge and shrinks KotR
UR Delver - lifegain plus big beater
Burn, lifegain plus Hellspark
Mirror - lifegain plus shrinks Nimble
Storm - stops PiF, removes Threshold
Dredge - permanent answer plus G1 threat
Goblins/Maverick/Merfolk/Affinity - lifegain plus size
UW - stops SCM

The list goes on and on (my list is by no means all inclusive). I find myself wanting Ooze more and more. While it's slower than 'Goyf, it does provide solid utility. Since we usually only have 1/2 green available, it grows slowly, but Ooze extends games, especially vs. aggro decks.

[Vandalize]

Speaking of utility, what role does Scavenging Ooze play in this deck? Albeit slower (than 'Goyf), it does offer utility against many m/u:
Reanimator - permanent answer plus G1 threat plus gives 2 answers vs. needle in games 2/3
Maverick, grows huge and shrinks KotR
UR Delver - lifegain plus big beater
Burn, lifegain plus Hellspark
Mirror - lifegain plus shrinks Nimble
Storm - stops PiF, removes Threshold
Dredge - permanent answer plus G1 threat
Goblins/Maverick/Merfolk/Affinity - lifegain plus size
UW - stops SCM

The list goes on and on (my list is by no means all inclusive). I find myself wanting Ooze more and more. While it's slower than 'Goyf, it does provide solid utility. Since we usually only have 1/2 green available, it grows slowly, but Ooze extends games, especially vs. aggro decks.

Scavenging Ooze is a great card, indeed. Too bad this deck only runs 3, maximum 4 green sources for his ability. And he shines in every situation you've pointed out.

Still, he's better suited in Maverick/Bant, because they can reliably fetch it when they need, and they have MUCH more mana to spend on its ability.

Canadian Thresh doesn't really want to stop Snapcaster Mage or gain some life. It wants to punch people to death with the most efficient beefy creatures in the format, while disrupting what can stop you from doing that.

Please, don't forget this NOT a control deck, it doesn't want to counter and answer everything. You just need to stop what's bothering you, or what might kill you before you kill them.

[jimirynk]

I'm playing in a SCG IQ tomorrow in Connecticut with the list I posted -1 bolt +1 dismember I will write a tournament report after discussing how the list performed card for card.

[Sturtzilla]

1) Combo-Let's say you have the play. Turn 1, you drop a Goose or Delver. Off to a good start. Turn 1, Reanimator drops a Swamp. Let's say you have a Spell Pierce and Daze in hand. Your Turn 2, do you want to tap out to play Goyf? Not really, because your opponent can end-of-turn Entomb. Even if you Daze this, your opponent could still FOW your Daze or make a 2nd turn land-drop and play Careful Study->Reanimate or 2nd Entomb->Reanimate. If Goyf is SCM in this situation, you can port it in at EOT and still have a 2/2 beater.

I understand what you are arguing here. However your argument seems to be rather skewed to me. You make the point that I have a finite hand while my opponent can have an infinite number of cards (sure that may be how games actually work, it is your job to figure out how the pieces fit together for you to win). Example from above, if you counter their Entomb, then they Careful Study, they have to have a dude to pitch or they are losing cards. When you construct an argument you can't really say, as you do here, that Tarmogoyf is bad because your opponent could potentially beat you in a counter war revolving around their combo. That may happen some of the time but you probably win the counter battle some of the time too. If you want to counter everything your opponent does, play Athens Blue.

On a different note, you likely don't want to counter the spell that puts a dude in the graveyard versus Reanimator. Countering the actual reanimation effect tends to be more important. Furthermore, if they use Reanimate you might even be able to just burn them out. Burning them out would be even easier, if you had landed a Tarmogoyf that can attack and do some damage.

Let's not forget what "Tempo" is... it is taking advantage of the resources that you have every turn that you did not initially posses. That would include mainly lands and creatures for this deck. If you hold off on landing your Tarmogoyf, on turn two your opponent has tempo-ed you, because you didn't take advantage of your lands that turn. I would argue that a Daze might be enough to hold off a first reanimation attempt. They will likely use Exhume or Animate Dead first to avoid life loss. Sometimes it might and sometimes it might not. Again that is for you to figure out about your counter suite. That doesn't make goyf bad.



2) 'Fair' creature decks - decks like Maverick and Nic Fit. Goyf is not that good in these m/us because the second they get a bigger creature, 'Goyf turns into a chump blocker.

This is true and the reason you need to apply you clock as fast as possible and hope for a little luck. Goyf is how we apply a clock. I know that it can be really hard in these match ups pre-board, but that is what you have to do. We don't really have a better creature at our disposal at two mana.



3) The rest of the field - 'Goyf is very good. Against decks like UR Delver, Burn, the mirror, etc., a 4/5 body for 2 is amazing. Any m/u we don't have to hold counter magic up, Goyf rocks.

Awesome... play him then.



The argument is not made that 'Goyf is bad overall or too mana intensive, there are just certain match-ups where he doesn't shine as much as he once did.

That might be the case but we don't really have a better option. That is the way it is.



Please, don't forget this NOT a control deck, it doesn't want to counter and answer everything. You just need to stop what's bothering you, or what might kill you before you kill them.

This is exactly right. You don't need to counter everything. Counter the specific card that matters. This is why Legacy is so skill intensive, you have to understand not only your deck but how your opponent's works and how they (the two decks) interact.

As and example here are the cards I would counter. There can be arguments for removal a decent amount of the time too.

Reanimator - the Reanimation Spell... Reanimate, Exhume, or Animate Dead (you can Stifle this too)
Sneak and Show - either Show and Tell or Sneak Attack
Maverick - Knight of the Reliquary and Thalia, Gaurdian of Thraben (you can just kill her tho)

[Justin]

I don't agree that you should save your countermagic for the reanimation spells against Reanimator. If they have no creatures in the graveyard, you generally want to counter Entomb or Careful Study whenever you can. Entomb allows them to put the creature that they want in the graveyard, while Careful Study allows them to draw two extra cards, while pitching a fatty into the bin. Sometimes the Reanimator player will have a hand with only one enabler spell (Entomb or Study), but three reanimation spells. If you save your countermagic for the reanimation spells, you will lose in those situations. Unless you have information about what is in their hand (and this deck usually doesn't play spells that give you info), you are better off countering Entomb, Careful Study, etc.

[jimirynk]

Are you saying that you'd side in Disrupt (it's the only difference from you're previous board). I'd say that pyroblast and REB are both superior in every way. They have the same CMC basically (just different color), and they are hard counters for the only target you care about - SnT. Disrupt is like an expensive Daze that cantrips. Between Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors and Lotus Petal, Sneak and Show can power out quite a bit of mana by turn 2-3. Playing around daze is usually just second nature for a good Sneak and Show player, and it's unlikely the extra 1 from disrupt would really make that much difference - my opinion.

I'd suggest running more pyro/REB if you want to keep fighting it on the stack.

Just saw this post, Pherion have you ever played disrupt? It was a 4 of in this decks sb probably before you owned dual lands up until the card spell pierce was printed and it was replaced in the sb with spell pierce.. But my lists all have 4 spell pierce MD so I have been testing 2 back in the sb and the card is INSANE every time I've cast it. Maybe people in this thread don't know how to use the card correctly and think its a joke.. Have you ever disrupted a turn 1 ponder?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Have you ever disrupted a turn 1 ponder?

Yeah, it's a headache.

[Sturtzilla]

Entomb allows them to put the creature that they want in the graveyard, while Careful Study allows them to draw two extra cards, while pitching a fatty into the bin.

Thank you for poorly translating card texts for me, while likely not understanding how this match up works. You have to be the beatdown in this match up as they have a greatly larger mid to late game that trumps ours. I am fully aware of how Legacy Reanimator works. I have been playing the competitive version for about 5 years now (see my signature and decklist below) and casual variants before that for a few additional years. Until I built RUG, it was my baby. You can see one of my lists, now out of date, here:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=39923

Yes it does only have two Brainstorms... get over it. Fact is I have monied with variants of this deck for a quite some time and understand how it works rather well. This was the "More Business" version of the deck. It focused on having both more discard outlets and more reanimation spells. The theory was to maximize the likelihood of having a turn 2 dude.



I don't agree that you should save your countermagic for the reanimation spells against Reanimator. If they have no creatures in the graveyard, you generally want to counter Entomb or Careful Study whenever you can.

As far as RUG goes, the putting the creature into the graveyard doesn't warrant a response. More specifically that isn't the part of the combo that kills you. The Reanimation spell is what gets them there. And many times when faced with a decent clock that won't even do it for them. Say if they Reanimate and have fetched... you might be able to burn them out or at least keep them from attacking by having a bigger swing back. If your hand has plenty of counter magic, then it is likely correct to counter the enabler, i.e. the Entomb or Careful Study. However in general I would be more worried about the bringing the fatty into play part of the combo.

You point out that the player might have multiple reanimation spells and only one enabler... well as a long time player of the deck that is just about as likely as the opposite happening. You have a few enablers but only one reanimation spell. As the RUG player in the match up you can have no idea what the case is going to be. You could counter the turn one Entomb and then they could Entomb then Reanimate on their next turn. Furthermore, Careful Study and Entomb are both forms of card selection but card disadvantage, which are made rather mediocre if they are unable to Reanimate.

[Serbitar]

I really don't get the heat of the discussion witnessed by the post above. Reanimating being a two card thing, it does not matter which half you stop. (Reanimation will not kill you if you have stopped the enabler and vice-versa.)

You will generally find yourself in the position to have to stop the reanimation because often you cannot or are unwilling to stop first turn enablers. If you count Thoughtseize as an enabler this seems fair as (looking at Gerry's list) they have 11 enablers and 9 reanimates. (In a list with Stifle you also tend to have more ways to stop the reanimation.) But if they do not get a creature in the yard in the first turns, I would try to counter Careful Studies which do not only enable reanimation but dig for protection and turn blanks in their hand (creatures) into real cards.

[useL]

One more aspect, Tarmogoyf hits for atleast 1 more (if not Sfinx or similar goes to GY). This one point of damage might not be irrelevant. It is all situational, e.g. does he fetch basic or did he play from an UG sea? Can you waste him to put him on 1 land thus shutting down all his 2 mana reanimationspells?

Lets discuss more important matters as my recent cutoff:

4 Delver
4 Geese
2 Oooze
2 Goyf

I feel happy with that and 19 lands, cutting stifle and going Spell Pierce x4. My meta is combo (tide/ANT/elves), BUG, RUG and then even mix of all the other DTBdecks.

[jimirynk]

One more aspect, Tarmogoyf hits for atleast 1 more (if not Sfinx or similar goes to GY). This one point of damage might not be irrelevant. It is all situational, e.g. does he fetch basic or did he play from an UG sea? Can you waste him to put him on 1 land thus shutting down all his 2 mana reanimationspells?

Lets discuss more important matters as my recent cutoff:

4 Delver
4 Geese
2 Oooze
2 Goyf

I feel happy with that and 19 lands, cutting stifle and going Spell Pierce x4. My meta is combo (tide/ANT/elves), BUG, RUG and then even mix of all the other DTBdecks.

Seems like grixis might be better in your meta than rug, stalker beats up on rug has real removal for goyfs, hand disruption vs combo and sbs perish vs elves.

[I am the brainwasher]

I was lucky enough to test the Reanimator-MU against a rather competent player who made Top8 (same tourneys I attend in) 3 times in a couple of months.
All I can say about this MU is that your chances preboard are pretty limited as long as your opponent isn't a drooling moron.
When you play Snare and no Pierce, let Entomb(s) resolve to increase your chances to hit possible Exhumes/Animate Dead. The only reason not to do this is when your opponent is heavily mana-screwed. A 1st/2nd turn Careful Study on the other hand, is something I would let resolve in most cases, since the card might be a bit of a gamble for your opponent, depending on what his hand may look like. The CDA of Study is a factor that can decide about winning or loosing games.
If you run Pierce no Snare, I would definetly counter Entomb, since Pierces become weaker as the game goes on and lists tend to run more basics right now, so this isn't too far away from happening. Careful Study, again, is something you need to think twice about.
Postboard, you obviously don't waste your counters for Entomb/Study since Surgical Extraction and/or Tormod's Crypt are boarded as a natural counterpart for a lesser mana investment. REB, Pierce, and FoW are thrown @ Show and Tell and opposing FoW's/TS, maybe Reanimation spell if it had come this far. If you think something's suspicious (like an Exhume on the stack, where your opponent could cast Entomb after the resolution of Crypt/SE) be aware of the common tricks Reanimator is capable of.
Even if you can get stomped pretty easily, I don't think the chances are that bad, especially winning the postboard games is not uncommon.
I would use at least 3 sideboard-slots for GYH8 if you see a lot of Reanimator, as well as when you step into an unknown meta or a large tourney.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Here's what I'm playing. Yes, I'm greedy as fuck.

18 Land
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

8 Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

34 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Spell Pierce
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dead//Gone
1 Fire//Ice

15 Sideboard
4 Disrupt
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Submerge
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge

[I am the brainwasher]

Here's what I'm playing. Yes, I'm greedy as fuck.
That is a bit of an understatement right here:eyebrow:
Since you seem to know what risks you take with this list (hopefully), I just want to mention that I am not convinced that the split of 8 Fetches and 6 Duals is correct if you really wan't to go that particular way with the deck.
The thought of beeing in better shape against Wasteland with passing more often with Fetchlands is only half-way true.
Comments about the rest of your build are somewhat unnecessary, since it is pretty much obvious what you are trying to accomplish with it. I can't bite my tongue completeley though and have to say that the investment of mana and cards is not favouring you in comparison to builds with Nimble Mongoose.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

That is a bit of an understatement right here:eyebrow:
Since you seem to know what risks you take with this list (hopefully), I just want to mention that I am not convinced that the split of 8 Fetches and 6 Duals is correct if you really wan't to go that particular way with the deck.
The thought of beeing in better shape against Wasteland with passing more often with Fetchlands is only half-way true.
Comments about the rest of your build are somewhat unnecessary, since it is pretty much obvious what you are trying to accomplish with it. I can't bite my tongue completeley though and have to say that the investment of mana and cards is not favouring you in comparison to builds with Nimble Mongoose.

The 8-dual/6-fetch configuration may be more correct for what I'm trying to do, but I always prefer to lead turn one with a fetchland against unknown opponents.

I generally don't Ponder/Delver on turn one unless I have an abundance of lands in hand. And if that's the case, the hand probably should have warranted a mulligan.

I haven't been happy with Mongoose lately. It just sits there. My control match up is pretty abysmal at this point, but I figure I have enough soft counters to stop them from establishing control before I kill them.

In testing, so far, lack of threats hasn't been an issue. But that may be due to variance and small sample sets.

So far so good, but if I walk into a room of Jace, the Mind Sculptor or Swords to Plowshares, I'd consider adding Mongoose back.

[I am the brainwasher]

The worst MU's you can possibly run into are propably Removal-heavy hands with Basics from UW and Bant or Punishing Maverick in general.

@lack of threads:
8 creatures are somewhat fine (the deck ran 8 for eternities), but it is the mixture of removal, threads and Wasteland, at worst all in the same turn, that will catch you with your pants down when you are playing such a reactive list. 8 creatures that need heavy protection are a gift to your opponent when you can't apply early pressure and get into the pro-active role, which might happen more often than you like it, especially against better players that don't fall victim to Daze and Pierce.
Don't get me wrong, I like that approach a lot since I am a huge fan of giving the deck something of its old character back, but I am not convinced it works out better. Planting a Geese and brainstorm away Goyfs was/is boss when you smell removal-heavy hands or couldn't cut your opponent off the colour he needs for his removal and I don't see that you can achieve the same goals here.
Turns must be planned extensiveley, (crap) cards that didn't bother Threshold, propably like ever, are now turned on against you and can mess up the (required) math you do to ride Delver/Goyf to victory in a handfull of turns.
I might have to think about that a bit more and/or test that out, but right now it is hard to believe that this is right.
Greetings

PS:What was that with the Fettergeist? XD

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I really like the list so far. Right now, for the US-meta at least, Mongoose is just a terrible Wall of Denial.


PS:What was that with the Fettergeist? XD

It's a 3/4 flier that blocks Mongoose and Delver all day long. I was originally playing it in a RUG Countertop deck that eschewed Delver for sweepers and other odd cards that aren't played anymore.

On paper the deck looked like NLT, but was too slow for my taste.

Tried the "Fat Ghost" in RUG Delver, but never had three lands to cast it.

[I am the brainwasher]

Since I can't really tell something about how awkward Geese in the US are (what a pun) right now, which is somewhat of a surprise to me, I have a completeley different question:

What are those Disrupts about?
I get the point that it is amazing to counter Cantrips which your opponents usually never suspect to get dazed, but in the turns you fight over Key-Spells, isn't it somewhat hindering to then have more of a do-nothing card?
Just free taxing your opponent can be huge, also fully agreed, but since most players tend to play around Daze (nowadays Pierce, also), isn't its effect marginal?
Btw, can you write down your current boarding to enable some test of mine with that list?

@Fettergeist:
I was a tad confused that someone who appears to have AE as his mother-tongue said this as a response to a post from a german. Geist is not only the word for a spiritual apparition in form of a ghost/spectre, but also sums up the entity of a single unique mind in terms of its ability to think and feelings that float around it in thinking processes as a whole. Mostly like the word spirit or mind in english AFAIK.
So I thought that Fettergeist (fett means fat, fetter would be translated like even more fat) was ment as either to express the good job I did on what I wrote, or the complete opposite while beeing ironic.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Maverick
-4 Spell Pierce
-1 Daze
-1 Stifle
+3 Submerge
+2 Rouge/Tumble
+1 Ancient Grudge

Reanimator
-1 Daze
-1 Stifle
-1 Fire//Ice
-1 Dead//Gone
-1 Spell Pierce
-1 Spell Snare
+3 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Disrupt

Sneak and Snow
-1 Fire//Ice
-1 Dead//Gone
-4 Spell Snare
+4 Disrupt
+2 Pyroblast

TES/ANT
+4 Disrupt
-1 Dead//Gone
-1 Fire//Ice
-1 Spell Snare
-1 Daze

RUG Delver
-4 Force of Will
and (on the play)
-1 Fire//Ice
-1 Dead//Gone
-1 Spell Snare
-1 Daze
-1 Stifle
or (on the draw)
-4 Daze
-1 Dead//Gone
+4 Disrupt
+3 Submerge
+2 Pyroblast

UW Miracles
-1 Dead//Gone
-1 Fire//Ice
-1 Spell Snare
-1 Daze
+2 Disrupt
+2 Pyroblast

Dredge
-4 Spell Snare
-1 Dead//Gone
+3 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Rough Tumble

[jimirynk]

Ended up going 4-2 to a 10th place finish,

Sneak and show 2-1
Esperblade2-0
Sneak and show 0-2
Rug 2-1
Rug 0-2
Esperblade 2-1

My lose to rug was a blow out I drew 1 land hands with ponder and failed..
Sneak and show got my opp really lose both games but my only pressure I found was mongoose.

[useL]

Really? removing Spell Pierce vs reanimator to fit your fancy cantripcounter that they can play around? I dont buy it.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Really? removing Spell Pierce vs reanimator to fit your fancy cantripcounter that they can play around? I dont buy it.

Then don't play it.

[useL]

Then don't play it.

I want to hear your reasoning behind this first. Isn't it better to be sure to counter their 2nd turn spell than to walk into a 2land reanimate->win situation?

[Koby]

I want to hear your reasoning behind this first. Isn't it better to be sure to counter their 2nd turn spell than to walk into a 2land reanimate->win situation?



TES/ANT
+4 Disrupt
-1 Dead//Gone
-1 Fire//Ice
-1 Spell Snare
-1 Daze


Disrupt <3

[I am the brainwasher]

Disrupt sure is good in combo(esque) MU's or decks with a lot of cantrips, but in my experience, these MU's are favourable already without them.
The problem I have with Random's list is the lack of steam against dedicated aggro/creature-decks while having a mediocre Miracle MU at the same time.
I can see the list doing well, but it is pretty masochistic since it is the most unforgiving list I've propably have ever seen.

[dsck]

"Chalice of the Void"

"Disru-, ooh never mind"

"gg"

[Koby]

"Chalice of the Void"

"Disru-, ooh never mind"

"gg"

Which decks plays Chalice right now that isn't already a bad matchup (like MUD)?

[Awaclus]

Which decks plays Chalice right now that isn't already a bad matchup (like MUD)?
From what I know, being able to win the bad match-ups is more important than completely crushing the decks you would've won anyway. I think Disrupt is indeed better than Spell Pierce, but I'll keep running the Preordains in the slot.

[Borealis]

I don't think I can agree that Disrupt is better than Spell Pierce. It's worse than Daze because you can't cast it for free (essentially making it a turn slower, which is very relevant with Force Spike effects), and it's worse than Spell Pierce because it loses it's effectiveness a land drop sooner. Also, it doesn't counter artifacts, enchantments, or planeswalkers, all of which are very big reasons to run Spell Pierce. You can't Disrupt a Jace. Besides, people already play around Daze against us, which makes Disrupt even more embarrassing when you have to actually hold up mana to represent it.

If you wanted to counter their counter, than just run Flusterstorm. Or Red Blasts.
I get that drawing cards is appealing, but cantripping off a mediocre counterspell isn't the way to do it in this deck. We have access to plenty of cantrips, just use them wisely.

[Tammit67]

Disrupt lets you go for the set up and save pierce/reb for bigger fish. It cantrips, either counters the spell, or timewalks, sometimes both. use it as a supplement. They can't sculpt the 5 counter hands and gas against you in a timely fashion when they have to also worry about cantrips resolving

[Koby]

They can't sculpt the 5 counter hands and gas against you in a timely fashion when they have to also worry about cantrips resolving

This. Most decks that use cantrips to smooth operations will need those cantrips to resolve. Putting the thumb screws on that plan means you buy so much more time. This was one of the reasons why MM was so effective against combo decks last summer. (Please don't try to point out that it counters outright - I know that. The strategy of countering cantrips is the important piece here)

[Water_Wizard]

Thanks for posting your sideboard list. I noticed we have different sideboard philosophies. I think you should be cutting Lightning Bolts more often. After each m/u, I'll post what I would do and let's open it up for discussion. I'm using the list you posted in post #2774 and the sideboard changes in #2880


Maverick
-4 Spell Pierce
-1 Daze
-1 Stifle
+3 Submerge
+2 Rouge/Tumble
+1 Ancient Grudge

+1 Stifle, -1 Daze. One of our best ways to win vs. Maverick is still mana-denial. Wasteland/Stifle/Bolt the mana dorks. Maverick is a Stifle-rich environment with fetchs, KotR activations, Mother of Runes activations, Maze of Ith, equipment, SFM, etc.



Reanimator
-1 Daze
-1 Stifle
-1 Fire//Ice
-1 Dead//Gone
-1 Spell Pierce
-1 Spell Snare
+3 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Disrupt

-4 Lighting Bolt, -1 Disrupt, +1 Daze, +1 Stifle, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Spell Snare, +1 Dead/Gone. I would swap Disrupt/Daze on play/draw. I don't understand why you cut Dead/Gone in Reanimator and Sneak and Show, outside of Maverick and the occasional Tombstalker, it seems like this is where Gone would shine. Gone in response to Grisel +7. Stifle is too good against Griselbrand, Fetches, and Animate Dead trigger. Spell Snare stops Animate Dead and Exhume. Spell Pierce is good, as this m/u ultimately becomes a counter war.



Sneak and Snow
-1 Fire//Ice
-1 Dead//Gone
-4 Spell Snare
+4 Disrupt
+2 Pyroblast

-2 Lightning Bolt, +1 Fire//Ice, +1 Dead//Gone. I understand you are running Lightning Bolt for its reach, since you only have 8 creatures. However, Fire//Ice and Dead//Gone have implications against Griselbrand - they become a Fog and Boomerang, respectively.



TES/ANT
+4 Disrupt
-1 Dead//Gone
-1 Fire//Ice
-1 Spell Snare
-1 Daze

-2 Lightning Bolt, +1 Spell Snare, +1 Daze. Spell Snare definitely needs to stay in. Their most powerful cards, Infernal Tutor and Burning Wish, are 2CC (and Cabal Ritual is a 2CC). Daze depends on play/draw, and I might cut them, since Disrupts perform a similar function. If I expected Dark Confidant or Xantid Swarm, I would leave in Fire//Ice and 2-3 Lightning Bolts.



RUG Delver
-4 Force of Will
and (on the play)
-1 Fire//Ice
-1 Dead//Gone
-1 Spell Snare
-1 Daze
-1 Stifle
or (on the draw)
-4 Daze
-1 Dead//Gone
+4 Disrupt
+3 Submerge
+2 Pyroblast

On the play:-2 Spell Snare, +1 Stifle, +1 Daze. Stifle and Daze shine on the play.

On the draw: We agree :)



UW Miracles
-1 Dead//Gone
-1 Fire//Ice
-1 Spell Snare
-1 Daze
+2 Disrupt
+2 Pyroblast

+1 Spell Snare, +2 Disrupt, +1 Daze, - 4 Lightning Bolt. Spell Snare is crucial here. You have to keep Counterbalance off the board, stop Snapcaster Mage, and Stoneforge Mystic (if they run it). If they are running Stoneforge, I would subtract 4 Daze and add 4 Lightning Bolts. I would also fluctuate Daze/Bolt on the play/draw. Disrupt doesn't hit Counterbalance or SDT, which are both critical stops in the m/u. For that reason, I might lean towards running the whole playset of Daze. However, I like the fact that Disrupt allows you to cantrip even if they pay it (assuming they don't counter it).



Dredge
-4 Spell Snare
-1 Dead//Gone
+3 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Rough Tumble

I think we agree here. I would like to find a way to leave Dead//Gone in the main. Perhaps cutting a Daze or Spell Pierce? Dead//Gone is extra removal and Gone seems good vs. a fatty grave-troll.

Just my thoughts on the matter. I think Lightning Bolt needs to be cut more often. I also think Nimble Mongoose is essential if you expect to play UW. However, I like the direction you've taken your list. How does it work out for you?

[Borealis]

This. Most decks that use cantrips to smooth operations will need those cantrips to resolve. Putting the thumb screws on that plan means you buy so much more time. This was one of the reasons why MM was so effective against combo decks last summer. (Please don't try to point out that it counters outright - I know that. The strategy of countering cantrips is the important piece here)

I can see the attraction of having Disrupt into Daze into Spell Pierce/REB, or something similar to that in the early turns. Living the dream, as it were. And there is validity in getting a Daze + a card in the lategame, when you have more than 2 lands in play. But the reality is, Disrupt is going to be be dead more frequently than our other conditional cards (Daze, Pierce, Snare if you run it). And those cards are already dead often enough to be challenging. When Daze is bad, so is Disrupt. So do you side out all 7 of them on the draw? What about when they go for Show and Tell or Sneak attack or Animate Dead? Or Liliana? It just doesn't have the utility that Spell Pierce or Daze has. Drawing a card is nice, but not at the expense of the effectiveness of the original card you're trying to cast.

If you just Disrupt their cantrip every time, then they are going to figure it out, and eventually just bait you with unnecessary cantrips. If you have to keep mana open for it, then they can spend more time making land drops and drawing naturally, while you don't get the pressure on them you need to. Late game, it's a marginally better Daze, but it still doesn't have the surprise effect you want. And why bother trying to draw into cards like REB and Pierce with a cantrippy counter, when you can just actually draw them in the first place? I'd rather be choosey with my hard counters in the first place.

I'm not saying Disrupt is bad, I just don't think it's better than Spell Pierce. Or Daze.

[Tammit67]

I'm not saying Disrupt is bad, I just don't think it's better than Spell Pierce. Or Daze.

So run all 3

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I can see the list doing well, but it is pretty masochistic since it is the most unforgiving list I've propably have ever seen.

It's like playing while sitting on a hot poker.

Seems like most of the questions for me were already addressed?

Thanks, Koby. Huh? Our names are almost similar.

[Borealis]

So run all 3

No thanks. I don't run Disrupt because I don't see the merits of it. You're more than welcome to, but I already have enough disruption without Disrupt. My point was that there are better cards that fill that role. I'm still waffling between Stifle and no Stifle. There isn't space in the deck for filler counters in my opinion. I'd rather have 4 Daze, 4 Force, 4 Pierce, and 4 Stifle than any Disrupts.

Also Koby, Mental Misstep was free, which is why it was so good. Being a hard counter is also very relevant, since it stayed live against any and all 1-drops, even after turn 2-3 when they can actually start holding up mana for Daze effects. Disrupt and Mental Misstep are not on the same level.

[Koby]

No thanks. I don't run Disrupt because I don't see the merits of it. You're more than welcome to, but I already have enough disruption without Disrupt. My point was that there are better cards that fill that role. I'm still waffling between Stifle and no Stifle. There isn't space in the deck for filler counters in my opinion. I'd rather have 4 Daze, 4 Force, 4 Pierce, and 4 Stifle than any Disrupts.

Also Koby, Mental Misstep was free, which is why it was so good. Being a hard counter is also very relevant, since it stayed live against any and all 1-drops, even after turn 2-3 when they can actually start holding up mana for Daze effects. Disrupt and Mental Misstep are not on the same level.

(Please don't try to point out that it counters outright - I know that. The strategy of countering cantrips is the important piece here)

[mike1987]

Do any of you guys still run a couple of spell snares or more? When it is good, it's godsend if not its a dead card in your hand. I believe that most impt cards in legacy are costs 2 mana though. Eg. Counterbalance, Stoneforge, Thalia, Chalice, Infernal tutor, etc.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

A random list of things I hate:

-Stoneforge Mystic
-Tarmogoyf in the mirror
-GSZ for 2
-Chalice for 1
-Thalia
-Counterbalance
-Exhume
-Animate Dead
-Daze
-Burning Wish
-Infernal Tutor
-AIDS

Spell Snare? Stops them all.

I play 4.
So call me maybe.

[I am the brainwasher]

I wouldn't recommend Spell Snaring a Daze though:smile:

[Sunday Funday]

A random list of things I hate:

-Stoneforge Mystic
-Tarmogoyf in the mirror
-GSZ for 2
-Chalice for 1
-Thalia
-Counterbalance
-Exhume
-Animate Dead
-Daze
-Burning Wish
-Infernal Tutor
-AIDS

Spell Snare? Stops them all.

I play 4.
So call me maybe.

You mean GSZ for 1 (cmc=2)
Don't forget aside from Thalia, Goyf, Stoneforge, Bob (creatures), spell pierce counters all you've mentioned too.

Spell Snare is great at what it does don't get me wrong, however, it's functionality is overshadowed by Spell Pierce.

I'm running no Snares,
It may sound crazy,
But main deck Pierces,
And I am happy.

[I am the brainwasher]

Too bad Goyf, SFM and Thalia tend to hump this deck pretty good. And have fun with those Pierces in the lategame. And yes, the deck tends to go to the late(r) game much more often recently, UW(x) - Terminator/Miracle Whip/whatthecrap beeing the main reason for that.

[Esper3k]

GSZ where X=2 is CMC 3 :)

I would think that this deck wouldn't care about Hierarchs...

[Borealis]

(Please don't try to point out that it counters outright - I know that. The strategy of countering cantrips is the important piece here)

Yes, I read that part. And yet, it's still relevant, so it's hard to ignore that when you make a comparison. But if you reread what I wrote, you'll notice my first, and more important, point, is that Mental Misstep is (was) free to cast. And it countered more than just cantrips. (Against Reanimator, though, I would still almost always save my Missteps for Entomb, Careful Study, or Reanimate.) Disrupt is not free, and does not counter much outside of other cantrips. For me, that's not enough value, even with the extra card.

Anyway, run Disrupts if they're serving you well. We don't all have to agree on every card, and having pet cards is also perfectly fine. Just don't be offended when people tell you why they don't think it's great.

[Koby]

I don't personally care for one or the other, as I don't play RUG right now. However, Disrupt has historically been played in Tempo strategies against Combo decks. The biggest impact is the cantrippping nature. Flusterstorm and Spell Pierce largely replaced Disrupt, but it still has some uses.

It really shines against Discard strategies in recouping cards in hand. This was a much bigger concern in 2005 than it is in 2012.

[Borealis]

Right. But there are better options now.

[Sunday Funday]

How are people finding the one Life from the Loam from the sideboard? I tested it and it never seemed relevant for me to have it. Against the mirror, I just want more dudes and when you're behind in board position, it almost seems useless to have. I'm not sure where it's applications are, so some insight would be appreciated. I'm finding myself wanting 2 board sweepers in the board: 2 pyroclasm or 2 rough/tumble. Elves, goblins, and affinity are getting more popular and sweepers seem really good at the moment.

[Water_Wizard]

the main purpose of LftL, as you mentioned, is to defend against the mirror or any other similarly situated deck (BUG, for example). Proactively, it provides Wastelock. Re-actively, it allows you to return Wastelanded lands.

Personally, I run 1. I've had it win me games. I've had it not been so great. All other things being equal, in the mirror match, the first player to find LftL usually wins the game. Especially if the other player didn't bring one in. I've had games where I've Wasted, returned with LftL, Wasted again, and my opponent quit. However, it is a very reactive/slow/resource consuming card for a Tempo deck.

For the decks that don't run it, I think the philosophy is "I'll win the game before LftL matters."

[I am the brainwasher]

Since UW-Miracle is not only the big elephant in the room, but propably one of the most solid choices (besides RUG, S&S) right now (Atlanta/Ghent), it is time to ponder about how to beat the worst MU Threshold has right now, especially for the lists that lack Stifle.
Envelop is the most narrow way to deal with both Terminus and Show and Tell and I think it might work out better than crossfingers on your own FoW backed up with REB/PB.
Everyone else here who doesn't feel that good about allbasicland.removal.deck@JaceCB.com? It is literally the only MU I am worried about.

[Irenicus]

Hello everyone!

I recently got back to Canadian and am currently testing it for GP Ghent.

@I am the brainwasher:

I am currently 7-2 against UW-Miracle in testing and although you can lose, I definitely don't see this matchup being bad. Granted, I am playing with 4 Stifle.

Imo Blasts are the best and most efficient SB-cards vs. them and even though they play a lot of basics, you can mana-screw them to some degree most of the time. Just be careful to not overextend too much and counter Brainstorm if you anticipate a miracle.

@all: Just some thoughts:

- I don't think that three graveyardhate-effects are enough for a GP. At Amsterdam last year there was a lot of Dredge and Reanimator. Therefore I am currently planning with 5 slots for theses matchups, but one of them might be an Ooze which can be used in many matchups.

- I currently have problems with Elves. They tend to win every game in which I fail to get an early Delver going. I don't like sweepers in Canadian that much, but they might be necessary to fight Elves and Goblins.

- I tested the matchup vs Maverick, piloted by a competent player, for a whole day and came up winning more than losing. The funny thing is that I won more games (both pre- and post SB) on the draw. Did anyone of you had similar results vs. Maverick? The sample-size wasn't that high (about 40-50 games), but the matchup is quite attrition-based and therefore the extra card might matter more than one would normally think.

[ShiftyKapree]

That new merfolk lord what a joke. I hope those merfolk players arnt serious about beating rug with our 7 burn spells and 3 spellsnares. And lets not forget about Daze and FOW. Only deck I see getting the upperhand on us is a Big Maverick or Big Zoo being good again with the unbanning of landtax but hell we can get away with playing with one land down anyway so I'm not that worried

[cheerios]

@Irenicus. Which version of Maverick did you play against? I found the GW (Fauna version) easier to beat compared to the version running Punishing Fire.

Regarding sweepers, is Sulfur Elemental still a necessity? It looks like Thresh should switch back to pyroclasm/rough tumble/firespout. Any thoughts?

[Irenicus]

@Irenicus. Which version of Maverick did you play against? I found the GW (Fauna version) easier to beat compared to the version running Punishing Fire.

Regarding sweepers, is Sulfur Elemental still a necessity? It looks like Thresh should switch back to pyroclasm/rough tumble/firespout. Any thoughts?

It was just GW (with a minor U-splash), though he wasn't playing Fauna Shaman. The list was similar to the following and played by the same player:

GW-Maverick (http://web17.accelerated.de/turniere/2012-06-03/Legacy/Platz%204.mwDeck)

Because I haven't seen or played vs. a Punishing-Fires-Maverick in a while, I actually don't intent to test that matchup. My current opinion is that the GW-Version is just the superior deck, but as I don't know that much about Maverick I might be wrong.

@ Sulfur Elemental:

I don't think that it is needed vs. Maverick. You might want to play it if there is a lot of Lingering Souls in your meta, but because Elves and Goblins are seeing more play, I think of Rough/Tumble when I am talking about sweepers.

[I am the brainwasher]

@I am the brainwasher:

I am currently 7-2 against UW-Miracle in testing and although you can lose, I definitely don't see this matchup being bad. Granted, I am playing with 4 Stifle.

Imo Blasts are the best and most efficient SB-cards vs. them and even though they play a lot of basics, you can mana-screw them to some degree most of the time. Just be careful to not overextend too much and counter Brainstorm if you anticipate a miracle.

Even if I don't tend to overextend, the MU doesn't seem as great to me, especially preboard, sorry. Maybe I'm just doin it wrong here, but since most builds run 2 Clique's now and lowered/dropped that (in this deck) awkward Snapcaster Mage, things got way, way worse IMO. Delivering early beats against this deck seems very important, but in my experience it is tough to keep them away from stretching the game to the point where pure CA and an established mana base wrecks you. Having a conditional StP 5-8 that also hits Mongeese (aka Terminus) is still a big deal, even if you might get them good with Stifle.
The biggest problem though is that Nimble Mongoose, who is a beast against control-decks in general, just doesn't grow fast enough. Terminus, StP and them playing 0-2 spells until turn 4 are so not feeding that little fella, which puts you in the spot to not beeing able to freeze the game at a mid or early stage. Thought Scour is on paper the best solution for either you not reaching Threshold early enough, or when they suspiciously cast a BS. When the card wouldn't suck so hard in other MU's, I would propably play it as a 2/3 of. Good UW players definetly still know how to annoy the crap outta this deck.


@all: Just some thoughts:

- I don't think that three graveyardhate-effects are enough for a GP. Therefore I am currently planning with 5 slots for theses matchups, but one of them might be an Ooze which can be used in many matchups.
This is what I thought about as well. Playing 3 SE/Cage and a single Crypt seems right to me. If you have the space for Ooze, why not.



- I currently have problems with Elves. They tend to win every game in which I fail to get an early Delver going. I don't like sweepers in Canadian that much, but they might be necessary to fight Elves and Goblins.

IMO 2-3 clasm effects are pretty much set in stone in this deck since it was created. There are just too much decks out there who get owned pretty good by semi-sweepers even without overextending.



- I tested the matchup vs Maverick, piloted by a competent player, for a whole day and came up winning more than losing. The funny thing is that I won more games (both pre- and post SB) on the draw. Did anyone of you had similar results vs. Maverick? The sample-size wasn't that high (about 40-50 games), but the matchup is quite attrition-based and therefore the extra card might matter more than one would normally think.

I didn't paid too much attention on if I was on the play/draw, but in general, I don't think the MU is that hard too. Your main/side - board configuration does matter quite a lot here though. I think that it is correct to have 2 Mind Harness, 2 Rough//Tumble and a single Sulfur Elemental in the board for that MU. I am not a huge fan of Submerge against Maverick since it doesn't change the board state as much as I would like to and Gaddock Teeg denies the card completeley. Mind Harness is bonkers at stealing Ooze's and KotR's, which are the only problematic cards in this MU (well, Thrun, but he can be outnumbered, flown over or walled by Goyf. Trolls gonna troll.), so I don't see a reason to give Submerge the nod over these.

Greetings!

[Sturtzilla]

Greetings All!

I just figured I should post a quick tournament report regard my Legacy locals this week. The tournament was held Tuesday June 26th 2012 at Kidforce Collectibles in Berea, Ohio. I managed to sweep the tourney so I figured that I should give you guys a brief overview.

Maindeck
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Thought Scour
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
2 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Gilded Drake
1 Life for the Loam
4 Submerge

Round 1: Poor Man Storm

This guy’s deck was basically just red ritual spells and the end goal was to Empty the Warrens. It wasn't Charbelcher… just mono-red storm.

Game 1: I was on the play and had a double FoW hand complimented by a Delver. Delver flips on the second blind attempt (no Brainstorms) and gets there. I do have to FoW a Seething Song to keep him from comboing on his turn two.

Game 2: I am on the draw and keep a one lander with a Ponder and Spell Pierce. I don’t hit a second land or a FoW off of the Ponder. He made 14 Goblins and I scooped them up.

Game 3: I am on the play again and have a very similar hand to game 1. I have turn one Delver with Force backup. He goes for it on his second turn. I Force the Seething Song keeping him from Emptying. Notes get fuzzy here… but I ended the game with a flipped Delver and 3 Tarmogoyfs. He went off again, but it was only for like 6 or 8 goblins. I believe I Forked Bolted two and then the Goyfs just kept him from being threatening.

1-0:2-1

Round 2: MUD

Game 1: I lost the roll and was on the draw with a solid opener, 2 lands, Delver, Brainstorm and 2 FoWs and maybe a Ponder (not sure about that last card). I lead Delver counter both tries for Metalworker that my opponent makes. That keeps his hand slow enough my Aberration to get there. Admittedly assisted by Ancient Tomb.

Game 2: I have a decent opener but it lacks FoW. He metalworks a Trinisphere and a Kuldotha Forgemater into play on turn two. This lead to Blightsteel Colossus on the following turn… yea I died.

Game 3: My opponent Mulls to 5, I am guessing looking for a Trinisphere or Chalice of the Void. I was on the play and stuck my only card of the game… Delver of Secrets. He Wastelands me on his next turn leaving me high and dry on mana. My Delver flips. I beat for 3 and pass. He stick a Chalice at 1 and I pray that my Delver can get there… which it does. I played one spell this entire game and it got there… talk about run-goods!

2-0:4-2

Round 3: High Tide

Game 1: I lead Delver with Daze and Force backup. I Daze his turn one Brainstorm. This was apparently correct as he didn’t play another land. I then flipped Delver, beat, and passed. I Spell Pierced a Ponder on his turn and he didn’t hit another land the rest of the game.

Game 2: I don’t remember much about this game. I just remember leaving one or two blue up for the majority of both games to represent all sorts of counter spells. This made it hard for my opponent to combo. I stuffed an attempt and with a Mongoose and Delver I got there.

3-0:6-2

Round 4: RUG Delver

Game 1: My opponent won the roll and mulliganed to 6. I ate a bunch of early damage from an opposing flipped Delver. But managed to stabilize and land double Goyf. This swung the tide of the game, enough so to close the game.

Game 2: I ate 3 from a flipped Delver but Bolted it off after landing a Goyf. This game my hand was really wild. I had triple Goyf, which is usually clunky and slow, but when facing Submerges, seemed okay. My first Goyf got Submerged and Thought Scoured away. But with two still in my hand, I was okay. I had stopped my opponent’s clock and I had the threats. I managed to get both Goyfs and a Mongoose (threshed by my opponent’s Thought Scour) into play over the next couple turns. This coupled with a few good cantrips kept him from landing threats, while I was the beatdown.

4-0:8-2

Round 5: Budget Patriot Delver

This deck had no Geist of Saint Traft or duals so I wasn’t too worried. Goyf is bigger than everything in his deck. So as long as it stays in play I should have the upper hand. This guy’s record was also 3-0-1, so I couldn’t prize split with him. I just had to go for it.

Game 1: I flip an early Delver and stick the Scavenging Ooze. Ooze netted me a couple points of life by eating his Delvers and Snapcaster Mages that I picked off or countered. I don’t think he was ever really in this game. My Delver applied so much early pressure and my counters kept him from doing anything.

Game 2: He led with a Delver and I matched it with a Mongoose. His Delver flipped and the beats began. I summoned up a Goyf, which he was able to Swords when it attacked the following turn. In my second main phase I doubled-down with a second Goose. Both of my Geese were threshed so I quickly caught up and passed him in the damage race. It gets fuzzy here… but he played a Jotan Grunt which I Lightning Bolted and halved the damage on a Forked Bolt between it and him. He Submerged the Grunt back to his library. So I was able to get 6 in putting him a near lethal. He replayed the Grunt and passed. I drew a Lightning Bolt which was not quite enough to get kill him. So I passed. The Grunt put some spells back on the bottoms of my library. He attacked with the Grunt. I declared a double block and pre damage Wastelanded myself to regain Threshold. It was a rough move, but it killed his Grunt and left a clear lane for my lone Goose to shoot down twice for the win.

5-0:10-2

Overall I was really happy with the list. The maindeck was pretty awesome. I think the sideboard could use a bit of work though. There have been a bunch of more casual players showing up in the past few weeks. So my board might need tweaked to reflect these brews. I ended first overall and got $40 in store credit and free tourney entry to my next event. I used it to get some Standard stuff and to finish off my foil Delver playset. Yea sure I got pretty lucky a few times, but I played pretty tight and probably to the best that I could. Thanks for reading and if you guys have any questions, I would be more than happy to field them!

[Borealis]

Nice Job Sturtz.

In regards to the Miracle Top matchup, I don't know that Envelope is the solution. It stops..... Terminus. That's pretty much it. Entreat the Angels too, I guess. Even though it's a hard counter, the condition on it is way to narrow to be good against the Miracle decks, let alone the rest of the field. I'd still play with Flusterstorm and Spell Pierce, and REB all their other relevant spells in the meantime.

The matchup isn't great, but tight play can definitely get you there. Also, if you want to SB against them, pack in 1-2 Sulfuric Vortex. If you resolve it, and can protect it, they probably aren't winning that game. Also, Scour away their tops when they flip them, and maybe go back to packing 3-4 Spell Snare for their Counterbalances (Mystics, Counterspells, Snapcasters, Thopters, whatever), and you should be in decent shape.

[Water_Wizard]

In regards to the Miracle Top matchup...

Also, Scour away their tops when they flip them

Do you want to Scour the top or the assumed Miracle?

They tap top, you either:

1) Thought Scour in response to remove their top two cards and hope they do not have a Miracle (the only problem is, they can reorder with Top in response), or:

2) Wait for Top to be placed on top of their library, hope they don't draw a Terminus, and Thought Scour Top away.

I just answered my own question. 'Tis best to Scour the top (barring certain mana-light board states).

[mike1987]

I see most recent RUG deck plays a couple of thought scours. Does it help the mongoose to reach threshold much better? What other uses does thought scours have in the deck? Filter useless cards off a brainstorm?

[Atog]

I see most recent RUG deck plays a couple of thought scours. Does it help the mongoose to reach threshold much better? What other uses does thought scours have in the deck? Filter useless cards off a brainstorm?

That what you have mentioned and works great agaisnt opponents counterbalance and e.tutor. Also you can use it in mirror or another matchups where you side in submerges (if you have them) to put guy top of library and then Scour it away. Also if you play ponder and just want that top card of your library you can mill two useless cards away with Scour. And yet another situation i have encounter, if you are going to flip delver, you can mill away card if you don't like it with Scour. There will are more situations where you that shines so i recommend to give it atleast a try.

[Water_Wizard]

I see most recent RUG deck plays a couple of thought scours. Does it help the mongoose to reach threshold much better? What other uses does thought scours have in the deck? Filter useless cards off a brainstorm?

Yes and yes (and Ponder). In addition, if you don't like what Delver shows, you can Scour it. Scour also has implications against your opponents' Miracles and Sensei's Diving Tops.

Scour really helps reach Threshold more quickly, especially in the less interactive matches where you may have counterspells/burn sitting in your hand.

[mike1987]

Thanks, besides the 19 lands, this is what i am playing

4 delver
4 nimble
3 goyfs
1 ooze

4 FOW
3 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
1 Spell snare
3 Spell pierce
4 Lightning bolt
1 Fire//Ice

4 Ponder
1 Forked bolt

Still undecided what can i remove for the couple of scours. Suggestions?

[Water_Wizard]

You don't need Scour. It's the 59th and 60th card and usually one of the first to come out in games 2/3.

Scour also has implications with Submerge, which I forgot to list above.

EDIT: If you wanted to run Scour in your list, I would cut 1 Spell Pierce and 1 Spell Snare. Up to you if you think it's worth it.

[Sturtzilla]

Still undecided what can i remove for the couple of scours. Suggestions?

I personally moved to 2 Forked Bolt of Fire//Ice for two reasons. Forked Bolt is cheaper and almost always easier to cast and it is a Sorcery. This is pretty relevant if you want your Goyfs to be big. As for cutting I would start with the 1 of Spell Snare. I would wager you won't draw it often and when you do you will want it to be something else.

[I am the brainwasher]

Still undecided what can i remove for the couple of scours. Suggestions?

Cut a creature (either a Goyf, Goose or dat Oooze) and a Lightning Bolt. Even if it is somewhat counter-intuitive.

[Sturtzilla]

Cut a creature (either a Goyf, Goose or dat Oooze) and a Lightning Bolt. Even if it is somewhat counter-intuitive.

This is absolute garbage. Running fewer creatures than you propose is poppycock. I would actually suggest a 4th Goyf. I have never been unset to see multiples.

[mike1987]

Thanks ppl. I will just remove the snare and pierce to see how it goes. If not i will just remove the snare altogether and replace it with pierce.:smile:

[Water_Wizard]

Sideboard
2 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Gilded Drake
1 Life for the Loam
4 Submerge
...

I think the sideboard could use a bit of work though. There have been a bunch of more casual players showing up in the past few weeks. So my board might need tweaked to reflect these brews.

Let's talk about sideboards!

I'm preparing for the MTGO 10th Anniversary Legacy tournament this Sunday, and I'm putting the finishing touches on my deck/sideboard.

My current sideboard:
4 Submerge
3 REB
1 BEB
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Tormod's Crypt

Other cards I'm considering: Mind Harness, an additional BEB, Rough//Tumble, Sulfur Elemental

My current maindeck is a 2/2 Goyf/Ooze split. I don't want to debate that here (I know both sides of the argument). The main reason I included the extra Ooze is because it is a permanent out to Reanimator and it helps secure the Aggro matches (UR and Burn). It is a meta decision because Reanimator is pretty popular on MTGO and Burn is a staple deck on MTGO.

I haven't completely decided my deck choice for Sunday. I'm between UW, MUD, and RUG. I have the most experience with RUG and feel most comfortable with it, plus it plays quicker games (I've had issues with timing out/lag with UW on MTGO).

So, in any event, and related to Stutz's comment from earlier (Congratulations, by the way!), I'm expecting Burn in the earlier rounds, some random white decks (Death and Taxes, etc.), and otherwise a pretty 'wide open' format.

The big things I'm considering cutting right now are:
Life from the Loam - awesome in the mirror, not so great outside of that.
2nd Ancient Grudge - awesome and necessary vs. MUD/Affinity, but I haven't faced much MUD and Rough handles Affinity just as well.
Graveyard Hate: Currently, I have 2 md Ooze plus 4 sideboard slots (2 Crypt, 1 Cage, 1 Extraction - I diversified to fight Pithing Needle), I may cut a SB slot.

My MD, for reference:
1 Taiga (yes, I think it's relevant to form the WL-proof trifecta, also good with Ooze)
3 VI
3 TI
4 SC
4 MRF
4 WL = 19 Lands

2 Ooze
2 Goyf
4 NM
4 DoS = 12 Creatures

4 FOW
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce = yes, I cut a number of counterspells to fit the Stifle plan, hence the extra REBs in the board
4 Stifle
4 BS
4 PND
2 Tought Scour
4 LB
2 FB = 29 Spells

[ImpinAintEasy]

Let's talk about sideboards!

I'm preparing for the MTGO 10th Anniversary Legacy tournament this Sunday, and I'm putting the finishing touches on my deck/sideboard.

My current sideboard:
4 Submerge
3 REB
1 BEB
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Tormod's Crypt

Other cards I'm considering: Mind Harness, an additional BEB, Rough//Tumble, Sulfur Elemental

My current maindeck is a 2/2 Goyf/Ooze split. I don't want to debate that here (I know both sides of the argument). The main reason I included the extra Ooze is because it is a permanent out to Reanimator and it helps secure the Aggro matches (UR and Burn). It is a meta decision because Reanimator is pretty popular on MTGO and Burn is a staple deck on MTGO.

I haven't completely decided my deck choice for Sunday. I'm between UW, MUD, and RUG. I have the most experience with RUG and feel most comfortable with it, plus it plays quicker games (I've had issues with timing out/lag with UW on MTGO).

So, in any event, and related to Stutz's comment from earlier (Congratulations, by the way!), I'm expecting Burn in the earlier rounds, some random white decks (Death and Taxes, etc.), and otherwise a pretty 'wide open' format.

The big things I'm considering cutting right now are:
Life from the Loam - awesome in the mirror, not so great outside of that.
2nd Ancient Grudge - awesome and necessary vs. MUD/Affinity, but I haven't faced much MUD and Rough handles Affinity just as well.
Graveyard Hate: Currently, I have 2 md Ooze plus 4 sideboard slots (2 Crypt, 1 Cage, 1 Extraction - I diversified to fight Pithing Needle), I may cut a SB slot.

My MD, for reference:
1 Taiga (yes, I think it's relevant to form the WL-proof trifecta, also good with Ooze)
3 VI
3 TI
4 SC
4 MRF
4 WL = 19 Lands

2 Ooze
2 Goyf
4 NM
4 DoS = 12 Creatures

4 FOW
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce = yes, I cut a number of counterspells to fit the Stifle plan, hence the extra REBs in the board
4 Stifle
4 BS
4 PND
2 Tought Scour
4 LB
2 FB = 29 Spells

I'd find a way to put another BEB in the board, there will be tons of silly RDW decks there and probably Dredge as well.

What time is that tournament and how much? I might actually make a point to play in it.

[Sturtzilla]

4 Submerge
3 REB
1 BEB
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Tormod's Crypt




Sideboard
2 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Gilded Drake
1 Life from the Loam
4 Submerge


I think next week for locals I would try running something more like this.

1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
4 Submerge


I guess depending what you think you will see a Rough/Tumble might be worth tossing in there. I like the plan on diversifying the graveyard hate. I have been considering a Grafdigger's Cage as an addition to that area. I will admit the Gilded Drakes haven't been doing much work for me lately. They have been there more as a cautionary piece of protection for Sneak and Show and Reanimator. My meta has very little of either... maybe like one of each. I think that might be the configuration I run next week if I suspect the same decks. Also diversifying artifact hate might be worth a shot if you suspect lots of Affinity and MUD. Shattering Spree is one I have been considering for that task.

[Water_Wizard]

I'd find a way to put another BEB in the board, there will be tons of silly RDW decks there and probably Dredge as well.

What time is that tournament and how much? I might actually make a point to play in it.

Thanks for the suggestion :)

I was running
2 BEB
2 REB, but that was when I had 4 Pierce/4 Daze/4 FOW (12 Counterspells main - now I am only running 9 main, so I upped the REB count. Plus, UW with Counterbalance is seeing more play, so REB is more necessary).

As you mention, BEB is sic vs. RDW and good vs. Dredge. It is also very good against Sneak and Show and Belcher (two other 'frequent' match ups.

What do you think I should cut?

The tournament is this Sunday at 11:00 AM PST (so, adjust for your timezone). It is one of 5 'big' 10th Anniversary Tournaments, so I expect it will have a decent amount of players.

[Water_Wizard]

I think next week for locals I would try running something more like this.

1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
4 Submerge


I guess depending what you think you will see a Rough/Tumble might be worth tossing in there. I like the plan on diversifying the graveyard hate. I have been considering a Grafdigger's Cage as an addition to that area. I will admit the Gilded Drakes haven't been doing much work for me lately. They have been there more as a cautionary piece of protection for Sneak and Show and Reanimator. My meta has very little of either... maybe like one of each. I think that might be the configuration I run next week if I suspect the same decks. Also diversifying artifact hate might be worth a shot if you suspect lots of Affinity and MUD. Shattering Spree is one I have been considering for that task.

Thanks for the thoughts/input.

How effective do you think Shattering Spree would be? We run 3 red sources? I really like Ancient Grudge. I would probably run Meltdown if I wanted a diversified artifact hate package, but I think I'll stick with 1/2 Ancient Grudge.

How has Life from the Loam been working out for you? Have you used it against anything other than RUG?

The BEB will help out in the S&S match-up (alleviating some of the need for Gilded Drake). The graveyard hate and Spell Pierce/REB against their Show and Tell should be enough against Reanimator :)

The Rough is also against Elves (I forgot to mention that above). I'm not sure how worried about Elves I should be. It did just put 2 in the T4 at last week's SCG. And, it's relatively inexpensive to build (without Cradles). Because Elves has recently done well and it's cheap (like RDW), it wouldn't surprise me to see a lot of it, but I'm not sure if I should expect it. The same is true of Affinity. It's cheap. It ports over from Modern. Therefore, there may be a lot of it.

With no byes in MTGO tournaments, I have to play through the early rounds, which will probably be RDW, random creature decks, and Affinity/Tribal. I guess it's all kind of a toss-up, really.

I like your change of -1 Tormod's Crypt +1 Surgical. Surgical has broader applications, like stripping Vengevine vs. Elves and LftL vs. Aggro Loam (I guess 'Cage has a similar effect vs. Vengevine).

[order]

I'd find a way to put another BEB in the board, there will be tons of silly RDW decks there and probably Dredge as well.

What time is that tournament and how much? I might actually make a point to play in it.

Actually i like playing CHILL instead of blue elemental blast. It's insane agains burn and gobos

[Water_Wizard]

Actually i like playing CHILL instead of blue elemental blast. It's insane agains burn and gobos

Do you bring in artifact hate vs. Vial? Chill is really only good vs. gobos if they don't have an Aether Vial. It also doesn't do anything against a turn 1 Lackey.

Against Burn, I could see Chill being really solid. How many do you run?

I like BEB due to its ability to fight other decks (Faithless Looting in Dredge, Sneak Attack, Goblin Charbelcher (although Chill arguably has a better effect, assuming they don't go off turn 1)).

I also like that BEB can destroy a permanent.

I'm curious to hear about your experiences with Chill. How many do you run? How does it work out?

[Final Ritual]

I would always run grim lavamancers before running any copies of Rough/tumble. It's an easy swap with mongoose. the decks lavamancers are generally good against mongoose is pretty bad.

[Sturtzilla]

How effective do you think Shattering Spree would be? We run 3 red sources? I really like Ancient Grudge. I would probably run Meltdown if I wanted a diversified artifact hate package, but I think I'll stick with 1/2 Ancient Grudge.

Meltdown would be legit! I like Shattering Spree because it can still be a 2 for 1 like Ancient Grudge but the Replicated copies can get under a Chalice at 1. I guess the counterpoint here would be the following: If you can make RR then you can likely make 1R and then maybe a G. So it is likely worse overall.



How has Life from the Loam been working out for you? Have you used it against anything other than RUG?

Honestly, I board it in very often. When I play against decks that either A) run Wasteland or B) are vulnerable to Wasteland. RUG fits both of those criteria. It serves both purposes to protect us from Waste lock but can also allow us to Waste lock certain decks. Then again as it is only a one-of, when I board it in I rarely see it and moreover, when I do maybe 50% of the time I want it. Say I have it versus an opponent with Wastes... he won't draw them and thus it is dead unless I want more fetches or a bigger graveyard (it can be good at getting threshold I hear and making Goyf big). That is part of the beauty with this deck though, if you don't need it you can Brainstorm it away. That, however, is no reason to play a subpar card.



The BEB will help out in the S&S match-up (alleviating some of the need for Gilded Drake). The graveyard hate and Spell Pierce/REB against their Show and Tell should be enough against Reanimator :)

I agree. Plus it is also solid versus a lot of other decks. Drake is good but is very narrow.



The Rough is also against Elves (I forgot to mention that above). I'm not sure how worried about Elves I should be. It did just put 2 in the T4 at last week's SCG. And, it's relatively inexpensive to build (without Cradles). Because Elves has recently done well and it's cheap (like RDW), it wouldn't surprise me to see a lot of it, but I'm not sure if I should expect it. The same is true of Affinity. It's cheap. It ports over from Modern. Therefore, there may be a lot of it.

Rough does seem like it is positioned well currently. If you are in an underdeveloped meta, it is probably even better. Like you said, budget/tribal decks just crumble to it.

[Water_Wizard]

I would always run grim lavamancers before running any copies of Rough/tumble. It's an easy swap with mongoose. the decks lavamancers are generally good against mongoose is pretty bad.

This is a really good suggestion and I appreciate it. And it's also true that Lavamancers and Mongooses switch really well.

I would appreciate your feedback regarding the following:
Against decks like Elves and Affinity, is Lavamancer fast enough? Because Elves/Affinity can go off/dump their hand by turn 2/3, and Lavamancer is limited by a) summoning sickness, b) single target per turn, and c) # of cards in your graveyard, does it do enough against these 'swarm' type decks?

Against more mid-range decks, like Goblins and Maverick, I imagine Lavamancer is a house and a definite improvement to Rough//Tumble. Your thoughts?

[Water_Wizard]

@ Sturtz - thanks for your responses :)

What I'm gathering from our last couple of sideboard posts is:

1) LftL is expendable. Personally, I've had some games where it's been really house. I've probably been lucky in drawing it when I needed it and not drawing it when I didn't. However, the fact remains, that it just doesn't come in against that much of the field. I consciously added a Taiga, removing a Tropical Island, to create a 'Waste-proof' land triangle, to provide an 'out' to Surgical on TI, and because I'm running two Oozes, I found situations where I actually wanted GR more than UG (rare, but it occurs when you already have a U in play and you want to cast/use Ooze or Lightning Bolt).

2) How many Ancient Grudge do you think is proper? Versus matches with Equipment (Maverick or UW), I'm usually only bringing in 1 Grudge (the exception being against Batterskull.dec). The only time I'm bringing in both Grudges is against a dedicated artifact deck, whether it be MUD, a UB Tezz variation, or Affinity. Against Affinity, we have Rough//Tumble, so the second Grudge is not as necessary.

3) How much graveyard hate do we need? You run one md Ooze, right now, I have two (wowzers!). I think I still like 4 SB slots to gy hate.

So, our sideboard looks like:
4 Submerge
2 BEB
2 REB
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Rough//Tumble

The changes being, swapping 1 REB for a 1 BEB due to high expectancy of RDW + other decks.
Cutting an Ancient Grudge and Life from the Loam for 2 Rough//Tumble due to high expectations of creature decks.


We also need to consider how the main deck interacts with the sideboard.
I'm running 2 Forked Bolt and 4 Lightning Bolt main. I've considered upping the count to 3 Forked Bolt because it's so good against creature decks, but it's so bad against combo and control.

Additionally, I'm only running 2 Spell Pierce, 3 Daze, and 4 FOW (to make room for Stifle), so I'm particularly susceptible to blue decks. I would like to run 3 REB in the board to make up for my lack of main deck counterspells. I'm considering running one over a Rough//Tumble. I'm not so much worried about the Elves match, as we have Submerge. The extra REB would shore up the Counterbalance m/u. What do you think?

The new sideboard would look like this:
4 Submerge
2 BEB
3 REB
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Rough//Tumble

On third thought, and going with the 'underdeveloped meta' mindset, it may be really nice to have that 2nd Rough//Tumble back in the deck at the expense of a BEB. BEB is amazing (and that's an understatement) against RDW. However, against S&S, Dredge, etc., 2 is often 1 too many. Plus, I have the Oozes for some life gain vs. RDW, but I'm not sure if this is correct, as Ooze requires a lot of G to do well and therefore, plays into Price of Progress badly. Stifle also doesn't do much against RDW, so, expecting to see a lot of it, I may be better off adding more Spell Pierce / Spell Snare main deck.

Third, and final, sideboard:

4 Submerge
1 BEB
3 REB
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Rough//Tumble

[Valtrix]

Hey, I have all of the cards for this deck except for stifles. I have a tournament coming up and would like to get them if possible, but if I can't what would people recommend playing in place of them? And secondly, is not having stifles a huge disadvantage? Thank you.

[lordofthepit]

Hey, I have all of the cards for this deck except for stifles. I have a tournament coming up and would like to get them if possible, but if I can't what would people recommend playing in place of them? And secondly, is not having stifles a huge disadvantage? Thank you.

I strongly prefer playing Stifles (and Pierces) main, but there are certainly people who advocate Stifle and Snare maindeck instead. It wouldn't be a huge disadvantage overall, but it would be in certain matchups.

[Woe]

Speaking of sideboards, I'm heading to the SCG seattle this weekend. I recently switched over to RUG but played it about a year ago before Delver. I am having some issues with a few slots and would appreciate more seasoned input.

3x Pyroblast
3x Submerge
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Rough/Tumble
2x Gilded Drake
2x

I dropped a submerge since I'm running two gilded Drakes. I decided to run three surgical extraction as I run two snapcaster mage. I have had good testing with it and dont have to tap out and pass the turn often for Goyf. I still may add crypt as a 1 or 2 of to finish the board. Rough/Tumble seems necessary vs random Goblin/Elves match up. The Drakes are questionable but I feel they have added value against Maverick as well in case a K.O.T.R drops that I couldn't stop. My real concern is mirror. I feel comfortable with my Maindeck vs theirs but would crypt+Loam be necessary?

So I'm debating between these as the last slots:
2 Crypt
1 crypt 1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Crypt 1 Loam
1 Loam 1 Ancient Grudge/Meltdown
1 B.E.B + 1 crypt, loam, or Grudge

My MD is the 19 land with 4 Trops Version running the full set of Stifles
- Counters
2 thought Scour
2 Forked Bolt

-1 Goyf
-1 Nimble Mongoose
+2 Snapcaster Mage
(1 Ooze MD, That seems pretty standard now)

My testing has primarily been against Sneak/Show, Dredge, Reanimator and some Maverick. This may have skewed my opinion on the inclusion of drakes. Thanks for your input in advance.

[Water_Wizard]

I don't think you need Loam b/c you have 19 lands and 4 Stifles to protect yourself from WL. Unless you want to WLock an opposing player, Stifles should be enough to let you win the game.

Regarding the 14th/15th slots, I think Crypt and then either Ancient Grudge or another piece of GY hate (depending upon what you plan to see). Personally, I would go with the Grudge so you have some answer to Equipment and random.artifact.dec. Seeing as you already have a md Ooze and a Crypt and 3 SE's and 2 SCM's to flashback said SE's, that's about all the GY H8 I would run (unless you really suspect a lot of GY decks).

Regarding Drake and KotR, just watch out for Mother of Runes, I believe her prop B results in a sacrificed Drake, since you can't make the switch.

@ Everyone - thoughts on Sulfuric Vortex? I'm considering it against UW. It stops life gain on Batterskull and Jitte. They can't usually hit it with Counterbalance (they don't run many 3 CC). They don't bring in enchantment hate against RUG (except O-Ring, which even that might be boarded out). The idea being you can get them to 6-8 life and then just ride Sulfuric Vortex to victory. Thoughts?

[rgripp]

@Water_Wizard

I played Sulfuric Vortex for a while, it's a good card, that will win some games vs. UW, but it's not autowin.

Now that UW got access not only to Batterskull but to Entreat the Angels as well, it's not impossible for them to race a Vortex.

I think we're better off playing the Ancient Grudges and more counters, and relying on the Monguise to actually kill them.

[Water_Wizard]

@rgripp - Thanks!

How many Ancient Grudge do you run? Also, does it depend what version of UW you are facing? Against Stoneblade (with 4 SFM/ 4 SCM + equipment), definitely bring Ancient Grudge in. However, against UW Miracles (with 4 SDT), I don't think it makes much sense to bring in Ancient Grip, unless you are going to try to blow up SDT's in response to their tap. Is this recommended?

[rgripp]

I only played that match once, in a Tournament, and I won, but I don't think I had any business winning that, considering there were MANY turns where either a miracled Terminus or Entreat the Angels would win the game for him.

That being said, I was playing with Spell Pierces on the MD, and I brought in Pyroblasts so I could win counter wars. But I missed Stifles.

They have a lot of valid targets, like drawing with the top, Snapcasters, fetch lands, and the miracles themselves.

I was playing 2 Ancient Grudges in my sideboard. But Top is a really strong card against us even without the miracles, I'm sure a case can be built for boarding Grudges in.

[Water_Wizard]

Yes. I think it's best to Pierce the tops as they come into play or attempt to Thought Scour them after they are place on the library.

Unless someone else thinks otherwise, I wouldn't bring in Ancient Grudge for Top alone, maybe for other cards like Crucible of Worlds or Mishra's Factory.

[mike1987]

Talking about SB, this is mine, pls feel free to comment :)

2 Surgical Extraction - (For mirror, control)
1 Life from the loam - (Mirror, or land dependent decks)
1 Tormod Crypt - (dredge, reanimator)
1 Sulfuric Vortex - (control)
1 Krosan Grip (Control, MUD, affinity)
1 Ancient Grudge (Control, MUD, affinity)
2 Pyroblast (self-explanatory)
1 Sulfur Elemental (Esper blade, mother of runes) - Thinking of changing this to rough//tumble though
1 Mind harness -(Mirror, maverick)- Feel that this is too mana intensive for RUG
3 Submerge -(Mirror, maverick)
1 Gilded drake -(sneak show, reanimator)


I think mind harness should be replaced with a last copy of submerge. Afterall submerge is more versatile and aids to our tempo.

[Sturtzilla]

2 Pyroblast (self-explanatory)

What is your reason for Pyroblast over Red Elemental Blast? Seems slightly poor in a meta game with a decent chance of seeing Misdirection (Sneak and Show, Hypergenesis, some Reanimator sideboards). Otherwise I think it looks pretty solid.

[lochlan]

What is your reason for Pyroblast over Red Elemental Blast? Seems slightly poor in a meta game with a decent chance of seeing Misdirection (Sneak and Show, Hypergenesis, some Reanimator sideboards). Otherwise I think it looks pretty solid.

Huh? What is the interaction with Pyroblast and Misdirection that you think makes REB a better choice? You realize that Pyroblast is modal, right? In other words, Mis-d would only be relevant if you're blasting a blue permanent...which the decks you mentioned do not have (Hypergenesis' blue permanents don't count obv).

Edit: I guess Sneaky Show does have V-Clique out of the board sometimes, so in that one very specific case, REB is better...unless of course you have a Delver on the board.

[Valtrix]

Huh? What is the interaction with Pyroblast and Misdirection that you think makes REB a better choice?

If you read the wording on Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast carefully, you will notice a slight difference in valid targets. Pyroblast can target any permanent in play, but it only destroys it if it is blue. On the other hand, Red Elemental Blast can only target blue permanents. As such, a Misdirection played on your pyroblast can cause it to just target anything in play, but red elemental blast requires a target which is already blue.

[rgripp]

You won't be targetting permanents on the decks that do play Misdirection, and neither would work as a counter against a Misdirection anyway...

[from Cairo]

Cue required reading: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/print.php?Article=21311

[Final Ritual]

This is a really good suggestion and I appreciate it. And it's also true that Lavamancers and Mongooses switch really well.

I would appreciate your feedback regarding the following:
Against decks like Elves and Affinity, is Lavamancer fast enough? Because Elves/Affinity can go off/dump their hand by turn 2/3, and Lavamancer is limited by a) summoning sickness, b) single target per turn, and c) # of cards in your graveyard, does it do enough against these 'swarm' type decks?

Against more mid-range decks, like Goblins and Maverick, I imagine Lavamancer is a house and a definite improvement to Rough//Tumble. Your thoughts?

You have lightning bolts and chain/forked bolt to supplement the grim lavamancers in the elf and affinity matchups. Even a turn 3 lavamncer is good enough to dominate the board in the matchup because thresh packs enough disruption to allow a late lavamancer to put in work.

You also get submerge against elves to buy you time to setup. I'd be more worried about grave hate the other decks are likely to bring in for goyf and mongoose making lavamancer worse.

[lochlan]

permanent

And, again, as I mentioned: none of those decks have relevant blue permanents, with the exception of the corner case where you blast a V-Clique and don't have a Delver on the board. (And if you're using your blasts to hit a resolved V-Clique, you are floundering anyway.)


if you cast pyroblast to counter force, they can misdirection your pyroblast to effectively counter it, but if you had red elemental blast instead, then Misdirection wouldn't do anything.

This is absolutely false. Did you not notice that Misdirection is blue?

[Sturtzilla]

If you read the wording on Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast carefully, you will notice a slight difference in valid targets. Pyroblast can target any permanent in play, but it only destroys it if it is blue. On the other hand, Red Elemental Blast can only target blue permanents. As such, a Misdirection played on your pyroblast can cause it to just target anything in play, but red elemental blast requires a target which is already blue.

Right on Valtrix; however, do take note that you can also redirect a Pyroblast to a non-blue spell as it is being cast. It is a legal target, but it does nothing upon resolution (i.e. does not counter it, unless it is blue). So players with Misdirection can far more easily change the target of your Pyroblast than a Red Elemental Blast in the instance of a counter war. This might be a very small consideration, but I feel it is worth asking.



And, again, as I mentioned: none of those decks have relevant blue permanents, with the exception of the corner case where you blast a V-Clique and don't have a Delver on the board. (And if you're using your blasts to hit a resolved V-Clique, you are floundering anyway.)

Sure most of them don't have relavant blue permanents, but they are loaded with blue spells. Misdirection can point your Pyroblast where ever the opposing player wants. They could Misdirect your Pyroblast to a land, for example. It will do nothing upon resolution, but it did save their Vendilion Clique from being killed and effectively countered a spell that you had access to. With Red Elemental Blast it is a lot harder for an opposing player to do this.


This is absolutely false. Did you not notice that Misdirection is blue?

The post you quote and contradict is absolutely correct. If you Pyroblast any blue spell, your opponent can Misdirect it to whatever they want. It can target anything, but only counters/destroys upon the target being blue on resolution. With REB the target has to be blue. So, you sir, are not only incorrect, but obviously fail to recognize the basic premise that we are discussing.

[lochlan]

Sure most of them don't have relavant blue permanents, but they are loaded with blue spells. Misdirection can point your Pyroblast where ever the opposing player wants.

No, they can't. [I think I misunderstood what you said a bit here at first, see my edit] The blasts are modal. That means that you can choose one or the other. Once you've chosen either a spell or a permanent, you are set in that choice.
Pyroblast reads: "Choose one — Counter target spell if it's blue; or destroy target permanent if it's blue."
So once you choose to counter a spell, you CAN NOT Misdirect it to destroy a permanent.

Edit: yes they can misdirect the Pyroblast at the V-Clique to a land, I am not disputing that. But that's not a strong play anyway. I agree with you that REB is better because of this but it's so marginal that it doesn't even matter, because if you're blasting V-Clique you are probably not winning.
Maybe I am misunderstanding you (the "loaded with blue spells" part made me think you meant Mis-d a spell-mode blast to a permanent), but I don't think you're following me either. There's no relevant blue permanents, and permanents are the only thing that make Mis-d/Pyroblast an issue. Spells just don't matter because Mis-d is blue.


The post you quote and contradict is absolutely correct. If you Pyroblast any blue spell, your opponent can Misdirect it to whatever they want. It can target anything, but only counters/destroys upon the target being blue on resolution. With REB the target has to be blue. So, you sir, are not only incorrect, but obviously fail to recognize the basic premise that we are discussing.

Please read the rules on modal spells.
http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Modal

Relevant rule:
700.2e Modal spells and abilities may have different targeting requirements for each mode. Changing a spell or ability’s target can’t change its mode.

Edit 2: Just to be totally clear here...Misdirection is always blue, so if you are countering a spell with Pyroblast/REB, they can always misdirect it to Misdirection itself. So in terms of spells, Pyroblast/REB makes no difference whatsoever. When you are in the "destroy blue permanent" mode, then Pyroblast becomes worse...but this only comes up if you are playing a deck that has BOTH Mis-d and blue permanents. None of the decks that run Mis-d have blue permanents...except for the V-Clique example, which is just stupid because you're never going to blast V-Clique, the point of V-Clique is to get the hate out of your hand for when Show and Tell resolves. It being a 3-power beater is barely relevant in a deck that has a 15/15 and a 7/7.

Also, the post I quoted and refuted said "if you had red elemental blast instead [to counter force], then Misdirection wouldn't do anything" which is false because you can misdirect either REB or Pyroblast to Misdirection, it doesn't matter which is cast.

[vennie]

Right on Valtrix; however, do take note that you can also redirect a Pyroblast to a non-blue spell as it is being cast. It is a legal target, but it does nothing upon resolution (i.e. does not counter it, unless it is blue). So players with Misdirection can far more easily change the target of your Pyroblast than a Red Elemental Blast in the instance of a counter war. This might be a very small consideration, but I feel it is worth asking.




Sure most of them don't have relavant blue permanents, but they are loaded with blue spells. Misdirection can point your Pyroblast where ever the opposing player wants. They could Misdirect your Pyroblast to a land, for example. It will do nothing upon resolution, but it did save their Vendilion Clique from being killed and effectively countered a spell that you had access to. With Red Elemental Blast it is a lot harder for an opposing player to do this.



The post you quote and contradict is absolutely correct. If you Pyroblast any blue spell, your opponent can Misdirect it to whatever they want. It can target anything, but only counters/destroys upon the target being blue on resolution. With REB the target has to be blue. So, you sir, are not only incorrect, but obviously fail to recognize the basic premise that we are discussing.

If anyone would like to save a clique/delver/whatever is blue you can just let the blast target misdirection itself, causing it to be countered on resolution because the target it had just is not on the stack anymore.

[Sturtzilla]

If anyone would like to save a clique/delver/whatever is blue you can just let the blast target misdirection itself, causing it to be countered on resolution because the target it had just is not on the stack anymore.

Sure! However, that isn't the crux of the discussion. This was all precipitated when I asked for the logic of Pyroblast over Red Elemental Blast in a proposed sideboard. Would anyone like to discuss why they would run Pyroblast over Red Elemental Blast?

[Thorondor]

you can split because of meddling mage and you can cast pyroblast even if the spell/permant is not red for other reason, not flipping a card, storm count, ...., of course these are very slight reasons, but hey why not.

[Justin]

Pyroblast is better against Phantasmal Image because it can target (kill) it when it copies a non-blue creature. REB is better against Misdirection. Image is generally only played in Merfolk, while Misdirection largely sees play in Sneaky Tell. In today's meta, there's a lot more Sneaky Tell decks than Merfolk decks. Therefore, REB is currently the superior choice as a sideboard option today (unless your local meta is infested with Merfolk and other decks that run Image for some reason).

[I am the brainwasher]

Pyroblast is food for Geese, but I also think that's not enough to play them over good ol' REB right now. Misdirection is really not that uncommon nowadays.

[mike1987]

What is your reason for Pyroblast over Red Elemental Blast? Seems slightly poor in a meta game with a decent chance of seeing Misdirection (Sneak and Show, Hypergenesis, some Reanimator sideboards). Otherwise I think it looks pretty solid.

Oh i used it soley cause i have it :tongue: Now that you mentioned about misdirection, REB might be a better option.

[Awaclus]

IMO feeding geese and destroying Phantasmal Images is more important than preventing the opponent from protecting their most likely 0 blue permanents with Misdirection. Also, there might be other corner cases where Pyroblast is marginally better, too - such as the opponent casting a Hymn to Tourach when there's one card type missing from your graveyard for Tarmogoyf and that one additional power makes the difference between lethal damage and giving the opponent another turn and you have 3 cards in hand and one of these is a blast and one is a card of the missing card type. I am currently running a 2-1 split between Pyroblast and REB in my sideboard, Pyroblast being the 2.

[rgripp]

Pyroblast is better against Phantasmal Image because it can target (kill) it when it copies a non-blue creature. REB is better against Misdirection. Image is generally only played in Merfolk, while Misdirection largely sees play in Sneaky Tell. In today's meta, there's a lot more Sneaky Tell decks than Merfolk decks. Therefore, REB is currently the superior choice as a sideboard option today (unless your local meta is infested with Merfolk and other decks that run Image for some reason).

And again, what blue permanent of the Sneaky Tell deck would you be targetting, to make this argument valid?

[Sturtzilla]

And again, what blue permanent of the Sneaky Tell deck would you be targetting, to make this argument valid?

We are not talking about blue permanents... blue spells! I don't know why everyone seems to think I was talking about blue permanents. If you read the earlier posts, it is clearly laid out that you can do both, but versus Sneak and Show, you target their blue SPELLS... for example Show and Tell, Force of Will, or Misdirection.

[Justin]

You don't target blue permanants with your REBs against Show and Tell. You use REBs to counter their blue spells. The opponent cannot use Misdirection to change the target of Red Elemental Blast to a non-blue spell or permanant. They can use Misdirection to change the target of a Pyroblast to anything regardless of color (it just won't do what you normally want it to do unless its blue).

Here's an example:

You cast Tarmogoyf (green spell). The opponent responds with countermagic (FOW, Daze, Spell Snare, etc.). You respond with Pyroblast (red spell). The opponent can use Misdirection to change the target of your Pyroblast to the Tarmogoyf spell on the stack and allow his spell to resolve and counter your Goyf. If you played REB instead of Pyroblast, your opponent would not be able to do this because there are no other blue spells on the stack that your REB can legally target. So against decks that play Misdirection, it is better to play REB.

[Sturtzilla]

You don't target blue permanants with your REBs against Show and Tell. You use REBs to counter their blue spells. The opponent cannot use Misdirection to change the target of Red Elemental Blast to a non-blue spell or permanant. They can use Misdirection to change the target of a Pyroblast to anything regardless of color (it just won't do what you normally want it to do unless its blue).

Here's an example:

You cast Tarmogoyf (green spell). The opponent responds with countermagic (FOW, Daze, Spell Snare, etc.). You respond with Pyroblast (red spell). The opponent can use Misdirection to change the target of your Pyroblast to the Tarmogoyf spell on the stack and allow his spell to resolve and counter your Goyf. If you played REB instead of Pyroblast, your opponent would not be able to do this because there are no other blue spells on the stack that your REB can legally target. So against decks that play Misdirection, it is better to play REB.

Thank You! I think the Goyf example is good, but in this match up you usually fight over a Show and Tell or a Sneak Attack. Most of our cards should resolve unless they have a shit hand. But, the example is a right on.

[rgripp]

You cast Tarmogoyf (green spell). The opponent responds with countermagic (FOW, Daze, Spell Snare, etc.). You respond with Pyroblast (red spell). The opponent can use Misdirection to change the target of your Pyroblast to the Tarmogoyf spell on the stack and allow his spell to resolve and counter your Goyf. If you played REB instead of Pyroblast, your opponent would not be able to do this because there are no other blue spells on the stack that your REB can legally target. So against decks that play Misdirection, it is better to play REB.

Except that Misdirection is blue and on the stack, therefore, a valid target for the REB, making their counterspell work.

[Justin]

Except that Misdirection is blue and on the stack, therefore, a valid target for the REB, making their counterspell work.

Hmmm. Ok, I think you have me there. Spells do go on the stack before targets are announced, so I think you could use Misdirection as you describe. So that would mean that REB is not really better than Pyroblast in "counterwars" situations and is only relevent when permanents are targetted, which won't happen in the Sneaky Tell matchup. So, I'm changing my mind on this. Sure, play Pyroblast over REB, unless there is a deck that plays blue permanants and Misdirection.

[rgripp]

Exactly.

But then again, we've been on a 2 page discussion on which is better, Pyroblast or REB, so we might need to take some time off and take a hard long look at our lives.

[Sturtzilla]

Except that Misdirection is blue and on the stack, therefore, a valid target for the REB, making their counterspell work.

This seems really corner case. It is also a 3-2 in the RUG player's favor as far as cards are concerned. This does not seem that likely although it is a fair point as far as rules go.

[rgripp]

It is.

Play by play example on the rule:

Opponent casts Show and Tell
You cast Spell Pierce targeting Show and Tell.
Opponent casts Force of Will targeting Spell Pierce.
You cast REB targeting Force of Will.
Opponent casts Misdirection targeting REB.

Misdirection resolves, you can now choose a new target for REB. Since a spell only leaves the stack after it FINISHES resolving, it's still in the stack, and it's b;ue therefore it's a valid target for the REB.
Misdirection finishes resolving.
REB fizzles because it doesn't have a valid target anymore.
FoW resolves, counters your counter, and you have to face a Big Spaghetti Monster.

Hey is it the solid strategic play for the opponent, trading his 2 cards for one of yours? That depends on board state.

But as you said, it is a corner case, much like in any situation you're comparing 2 very very similar cards like Pyroblast and REB. I was just pointing out that REB isn't better than Pyroblast because it dodges Misdirection, cause it doesn't.

[Julian23]

Hmmm. Ok, I think you have me there. Spells do go on the stack before targets are announced

Actually, spells go on the stack only after all targets have been announced. What's making Misdirection work is the fact that a spell doesn't leave the stack until it's effect has been fully applied - in this case, chosing a new target for REB/Pyroblast.

[Borealis]

^^ Julian, looks like you're going to have to come up with another 7th sin!! Land Taxes Return, the Apocalypse is Upon Us!

Folks, let's face it: Red Elemental Blast is sexier-looking, particularly if you invested $10 a pop on Beta ones. Like, BETA BRO. Isn't that reason enough to pick it over some Ice Aged Jankiness? I mean, how can you expect to win counter wars if you don't look good in the process as well? Intimidating your opponent with flashy expensive cards is one of the best ways to get an edge in Legacy, isn't it? :tongue:

[Sunday Funday]

I have a big tournament tomorrow (~100 people). I can't really decide whether I should run though scours main deck or not. I've seen a ton of successful builds with it and some without, performing equally as well. Can someone enlighten me on the merits of the card other than the usual: grow goose, submerge+scour, scour away top etc.? I playtested some games and goose grows just fine. What I don't like is the fact that if goose already has threshold, it doesn't really accomplish anything. I really want to pack at least 3 fire/ice because I'm expecting more goblins, elves, and affinity. Forked bolt is good too, but trash versus combo and at least fire/ice can ice a land on upkeep versus combo essentially buying us more time (and maximizes daze). Also the fact that it's blue helps FoW. I'm also packing 2 Scavenging Oozes main. OMG, dont even get me started, he does so much against the field. Here goes:

4 nimble mongoose
4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf
2 scavenging ooze
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 force of will
4 daze
4 lightning bolt
3 spell pierce
3 fire/ice
1 thought scour

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga

2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Rough/Tumble
4 Submerge
1 Mind Harness

[Water_Wizard]

Just run a Life from the Loam over the Thought Scour. If you need to grow Goyf/Goose, dredge. If not, LftL can give you Wastelock. Additionally, it can be used to buy-back fetches to thin or shuffle your deck. And, you can dredge with it to clear away unwanted Brainstorm/Ponder cards. Plus, it can give you some Ooze food to gain life plus +1/+1's.

[Hof]

I simply don't get Thought Scour either. There are good reasons why Threshold didn't run Mental Note all that time (except maybe in the very early days): it simply isn't needed for threshold, and is only situationally good otherwise. Thought Scour is only marginally better than Mental Note. Frankly, I think it is not optimal. And I personally would never run a card at a big event that I wasn't sure of, so if you think the same way about Thought Scour my advise would be to replace it. If you need a random cantrip, I recommend Gitaxian Probe, as I have found it to be excellent.

I like your list a lot - good luck with the tournament!

[rgripp]

Forked Bolt deals with Goblin Lackey on 1 on the draw.

It seems to me you're running a LOT of creatures and lands (which are fine on grindy matches), so maybe you can afford to play the Fire // Ices.

Wild Mongoose is just outclassed or little pressure on anything other than control matches, without the Thought Scours to make them 3/3 faster. You can't drop a 1/1 against Goblins, or Maverick, or pretty much any creature deck and then just counter everything they do while riding it to victory. And when they're 1/1, they look pretty silly vs. your opponent untapping into Show and Tell or Ad Nauseam. The Thought Scours make them more relevant on the early game, forcing your opponent to commit more to the board so you can punish him with those Wastelands and Dazes.

I don't hate Stifles in the deck, it's relevant against every single deck you said you were expecting.

Also, 4 Submerges and 1 Mind Harness (along with those Rough // Tumbles) seems like a LOT of anti-green hate... I'd take that Mind Harness for something else, like a Sulfur Elemental or a Life from the Loam for the mirror...

[Sunday Funday]

I simply don't get Thought Scour either. There are good reasons why Threshold didn't run Mental Note all that time (except maybe in the very early days): it simply isn't needed for threshold, and is only situationally good otherwise. Thought Scour is only marginally better than Mental Note. Frankly, I think it is not optimal. And I personally would never run a card at a big event that I wasn't sure of, so if you think the same way about Thought Scour my advise would be to replace it. If you need a random cantrip, I recommend Gitaxian Probe, as I have found it to be excellent.

I like your list a lot - good luck with the tournament!

Thanks for reassuring me. That was exactly my line of thought when I posted.


Forked Bolt deals with Goblin Lackey on 1 on the draw.

It seems to me you're running a LOT of creatures and lands (which are fine on grindy matches), so maybe you can afford to play the Fire // Ices.

Wild Mongoose is just outclassed or little pressure on anything other than control matches, without the Thought Scours to make them 3/3 faster. You can't drop a 1/1 against Goblins, or Maverick, or pretty much any creature deck and then just counter everything they do while riding it to victory. And when they're 1/1, they look pretty silly vs. your opponent untapping into Show and Tell or Ad Nauseam. The Thought Scours make them more relevant on the early game, forcing your opponent to commit more to the board so you can punish him with those Wastelands and Dazes.

I don't hate Stifles in the deck, it's relevant against every single deck you said you were expecting.

Also, 4 Submerges and 1 Mind Harness (along with those Rough // Tumbles) seems like a LOT of anti-green hate... I'd take that Mind Harness for something else, like a Sulfur Elemental or a Life from the Loam for the mirror...

Ah, turn one lackey. Good point. But usually if need be, I can lightning bolt or drop a mongoose or delver to block if I really need to. And also FoW turn 1 can happen too.

With 3 fire/ice and 2 rough/tumble, along with 2 grudges, my elves goblin, and adfinity matchup should give me an edge. I've always gone back and forth with stifles and based on my desired maindeck configuration, I'm afraid there's no room to accommodate for them.

I'm expecting lots of mirror so double ooze main. 4 submerges doesn't seem enough sometimes but I'm still uncertain. Mind harness is rather a loose slot that I'm debating over, but thanks for your input.

[Borealis]

I still think Thought Scour is pretty good, even if it's sometimes underwhelming. But after the recent conversation, and after mulling over Ali Aintrazi's list, I'm actually considering cutting 1 Scour for a Life from the Loam maindeck. Freeing up a SB slot will be nice, and having a maindeck Loam would help make the manabase more stable. It could be slightly awkward against basic-heavy (U/W) decks (since we really just want to recur Wastelands with Loam), but even there I think it could be valuable to keep up with their land drops and thin out the deck.

[Pherion]

Evening everyone! Just played a nice little local tourney Wednesday, and came in 2nd - drew to Maverick because the guy didn't know how to quickly use Sylvan Library, and lost to Afinity in the final match! Beat Burn, mirror, Miracle Blade, and UR Delver.

I've tweaked the deck slightly, so here's the list, and my comments afterwards:

Main Deck
Lands (19)
3 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Creatures (13)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Scavenging Ooze

Counterspells (11)
4 Spell Pierce
3 Force of Will
4 Daze

Cantrips (10)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Thought Scour

Burn (7)
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
1 Chain Lightning

Lands
The only questionable things (I think) about my mana base are the 4th Tropical Island, and the Taiga. I justify the 4th tropical with the main deck Ooze. I fell the extra green source is mandatory for this card to be relevant main deck. The Taiga I like to counter Surgical Extraction. I actually recently played a game where my land base saved me. I was on a mull to 4, and and a decent hand considering. I played a fetch turn one, and cracked it to ponder. My opponent responded by extracting my fetc land. If I ran a full complement of each fetch, this could have completely devastated my potential to hit a 2nd land (that I sorely needed) off of the ponder. His face was rather comical when he realized there were only two of that fetch in the deck.... I found my land, and won the game. So, same concept applies - I don't wana be shut off a color by an extracted Volc or Trop - hence Taiga.

Creatures
The base is simple 4 of each staple. They are just too good at everything they do. Delver is early beats, Mongoose destroys the control match-ups, and Goyf just says Temp all over him. In my match Wednesday against Affinity, I stabilized with two goyfs on the field. It was down to him unable to attack with an Etched Champion because I'd kill him on the swing back. I had him down to 3 life, and needed to top deck a bolt. He got lucky and ripped a cranial plating... Anyway, I lost, but it would have been 10 turns sooner if not for the Goyfs and their massive tempo swings :)

The ooze maindeck is just so good. I had multiple match-ups where it saved me. Against burn, it got me a few life points and allowed me to survive a Fireblast and win. On Affinity it basically won the game by blocking, life gain, and swinging for damage. And in the mirror.... My opponent all but scooped when I resolved him.

Counterspells
I know - someone's gonna flame me for dropping the Stifles! But... But... I just don't feel them doing the job I want them to do. Yes they are good against a LOT of things, but Spell Pierce is just so much better right now. I won't argue this point as it's one of the hot ones around here :)

Three forces is one of those other things - I just hate the card dis-advantage it provides in this deck that can never advance in cards... it only cantrips. A lost card is forever gone :(

Burn
Pretty standard except the singleton Chain Lightning. I put it in just today because on Wednesday I had several match-ups where I just needed to rip that last bit of burn to win, and I never did :( So Chain Lightning over a 3rd forked bolt or a Fire//Ice to give me that extra point of reach.

Sideboard
2 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Gilded Drake
3 Submerge
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Grafdigger's Cage

The sideboard I'm not going to discuss much as I've changed it recently and don't know how it preforms yet. I fitted in the two elemntals and cages just today as something different to try .... We'll see how it goes.

Cheers!

[mike1987]

Evening everyone! Just played a nice little local tourney Wednesday, and came in 2nd - drew to Maverick because the guy didn't know how to quickly use Sylvan Library, and lost to Afinity in the final match! Beat Burn, mirror, Miracle Blade, and UR Delver.

I've tweaked the deck slightly, so here's the list, and my comments afterwards:

Main Deck
Lands (19)
3 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Creatures (13)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Scavenging Ooze

Counterspells (11)
4 Spell Pierce
3 Force of Will
4 Daze

Cantrips (10)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Thought Scour

Burn (7)
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
1 Chain Lightning

Lands
The only questionable things (I think) about my mana base are the 4th Tropical Island, and the Taiga. I justify the 4th tropical with the main deck Ooze. I fell the extra green source is mandatory for this card to be relevant main deck. The Taiga I like to counter Surgical Extraction. I actually recently played a game where my land base saved me. I was on a mull to 4, and and a decent hand considering. I played a fetch turn one, and cracked it to ponder. My opponent responded by extracting my fetc land. If I ran a full complement of each fetch, this could have completely devastated my potential to hit a 2nd land (that I sorely needed) off of the ponder. His face was rather comical when he realized there were only two of that fetch in the deck.... I found my land, and won the game. So, same concept applies - I don't wana be shut off a color by an extracted Volc or Trop - hence Taiga.

Creatures
The base is simple 4 of each staple. They are just too good at everything they do. Delver is early beats, Mongoose destroys the control match-ups, and Goyf just says Temp all over him. In my match Wednesday against Affinity, I stabilized with two goyfs on the field. It was down to him unable to attack with an Etched Champion because I'd kill him on the swing back. I had him down to 3 life, and needed to top deck a bolt. He got lucky and ripped a cranial plating... Anyway, I lost, but it would have been 10 turns sooner if not for the Goyfs and their massive tempo swings :)

The ooze maindeck is just so good. I had multiple match-ups where it saved me. Against burn, it got me a few life points and allowed me to survive a Fireblast and win. On Affinity it basically won the game by blocking, life gain, and swinging for damage. And in the mirror.... My opponent all but scooped when I resolved him.

Counterspells
I know - someone's gonna flame me for dropping the Stifles! But... But... I just don't feel them doing the job I want them to do. Yes they are good against a LOT of things, but Spell Pierce is just so much better right now. I won't argue this point as it's one of the hot ones around here :)

Three forces is one of those other things - I just hate the card dis-advantage it provides in this deck that can never advance in cards... it only cantrips. A lost card is forever gone :(

Burn
Pretty standard except the singleton Chain Lightning. I put it in just today because on Wednesday I had several match-ups where I just needed to rip that last bit of burn to win, and I never did :( So Chain Lightning over a 3rd forked bolt or a Fire//Ice to give me that extra point of reach.

Sideboard
2 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Gilded Drake
3 Submerge
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Grafdigger's Cage

The sideboard I'm not going to discuss much as I've changed it recently and don't know how it preforms yet. I fitted in the two elemntals and cages just today as something different to try .... We'll see how it goes.

Cheers!

I am still not completely sold over the idea of a lone taiga, though it protects your colours from surgical extraction, however not being able to daze with it is kinda a drawback too, maybe I will try it out and see how it goes.

With regards to your SB, its quite solid but i play 1 Ancient grudge and 1 Krosan grip in the case of counterbalance. You might wanna squeeze in a slot for life from the loam as it shines against mirror. You can consider sulfuric vortex for grindy games against countertop miracle. Once you land the vortex, unless they have a solution(which usually they don't), they will be forced to scoop or dig for their win con, entreat the angels to race.

[lordofthepit]

Since we're dissecting the differences between Pyroblasts and Red Elemental Blasts, I wanted to talk about fetchlands (for the builds that don't run Taiga or basics).

Is it better to run an even split of all fetchlands to avoid the very rare Pithing Needle or Surgical Extraction on your fetchland? Or is it better to run Wooded Foothills, Flooded Strand, and Polluted Delta, to mislead your opponent into thinking you're playing a different deck?

[from Cairo]

Is it better to run an even split of all fetchlands to avoid the very rare Pithing Needle or Surgical Extraction on your fetchland? Or is it better to run Wooded Foothills, Flooded Strand, and Polluted Delta, to mislead your opponent into thinking you're playing a different deck?

I've been running the following mana/fetch base

4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Island

I think Delta broadcasts the widest spread of legitimate archetypes - Storm, Reanimator, some variety of BUG/Esper. Both it and Strand fetch all the mana sources I'm running and once an opponent knows I'm on RUG it seems intuitive they'd Needle or attept to Surgical the on-color fetches if anyone's ever going to bother with that play to begin with.

For what it's worth I don't run Scavenging Ooze though, nor the Taiga, clearly, so this list's needs are primarily Blue with only 7-9 Red costs and 7-8 Green costs in the 75.

[Awaclus]

I run 4x Misty Rainforest and 4x Scalding Tarn at the moment, because they're the cheapest fetchlands :laugh: . I used to run 1x Polluted Delta in addition to those, but I cut it after Delver replaced Grim Lavamancer in my list.

[I am the brainwasher]

List of Fetchlands not to play right now:

-Wooded Foothills:
Punishing Maverick isn't seeing enough play to justify running it. Neither Elves, Goblins or whatever are a good enough bluff, since they always cast a 1-drop.

-Misty Rainforest:
Pretending to be Bant or Maverick is something that does not work out great in my experience and is too narrow, as well as BUG variants.


Polluted Delta (Storm, Reanimator, Esper, BUG, ...)
Scalding Tarn (Sneak Show, UR-Delver, Storm)
Flooded Strand (Terminator, Blade, ...)

IMO Delta and Scalding Tarn serve you well because Reanimator and Sneak Show are big right now. Strand and Delta are nontheless the combination I'd run, since it is pretty easy to trick your opponent into something when you play double Fetch go and leaves most space for interpretation. Tarn on the other hand, might force your opponent to cast spells early, what makes them more vulnerable to Stifle and let them pull the trigger on things earlier on in general, which is good for us. Scalding Tarn fetch Volcanic Ponder is not really the play that leaves your opponent with a clear grasp of whats going on.

[Borealis]

If you don't run Basics, or Taiga, then there is ABSOLUTELY no difference in what fetchlands you run, and running a split is fine. It won't matter much, and some people just like their specific fetch. If I had Polluteds and Floodeds, I'd probabaly run a couple. Right now I'm running I think a 3/3/2 split of Foothills, Misty, and Tarn.

[mike1987]

When playing with maverick, do you guys use the bolts on the hierach or save it for their bigger creatures?

[Justin]

Unless you have good reason to believe that the Maverick player has plenty of mana to spare, you should go ahead and bolt their Hierarchs early and often. Maverick can be a tough matchup, but you can steal some wins by mana screwing them. Stifle their fetches, Wasteland their non-basics, and kill their Hierarchs.

[rgripp]

Killing their Hierarchs makes your Stifles, Wastelands and Dazes better. Just don't get yourself cold to a Mother of Runes.

[Awaclus]

Unless you have good reason to believe that the Maverick player has plenty of mana to spare, you should go ahead and bolt their Hierarchs early and often. Maverick can be a tough matchup, but you can steal some wins by mana screwing them. Stifle their fetches, Wasteland their non-basics, and kill their Hierarchs.
Even if they don't actually get mana screwed, they will be one turn behind and their KotR or something will not be boosted by Exalted. Bolting a Hierarch is never a bad play, especially if the bolt in question happens to be forked, and the cases when not bolting a Hierarch is even better are really corner ones.

[Mandalay]

rug won gp atl interesting list he still has 2 snares plus SB cursed totems

Main Deck
60 cards

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
18 lands

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tarmogoyf
12 creatures

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Fire // Ice
4 Force of Will
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
3 Thought Scour
30 other spells

Sideboard
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Cursed Totem
1 Gilded Drake
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Submerge
3 Surgical Extraction
15 sideboard cards

[Final Ritual]

Finished in 43 at the GP. I'll be posting a tournement report later this week

[chinEsE girl]

I played jimirynk's list at the GP going 6-2-1 on day 1, then in the SCG IQ going 5-1 then losing my win and in for round 7. The list I played looked like this:

4 delver
4 mongoose
3 goyf
1 ooze

4 brainstrom
4 ponder
2 thought scour
4 lightning bolt
2 forked bolt
1 dead//gone
4 spell pierce
4 daze
4 force

4 trop
3 volc
4 misty
4 tarn
4 wasteland

sb:
2 REB
2 rough//tumble
1 sulfur elemental
3 crypt
1 gilded drake
3 submerge
1 ancient grudge
2 disrupt

Even though I didn't do so hot in either event, I still felt like the list, and in general the deck, was very good. My loses in the GP were to a sneak and show player who was very good, and to burn (why anyone wants to play that deck at a GP, I have no idea). And I drew with maverick when he kept topdecking zenith or ooze and his board has no creatures vs my 1. Oh well. The IQ my loses were to goblins (not the greatest matchup), as well as the mirror where I punted game 3. Otherwise I beat a wide variety of other decks, from home brews to dredge to UW and other stuff.

I was pretty happy with the maindeck, although I'm not sure exactly how good dead//gone is. Like sure it's sweet to kill all sorts of things turn 1, and you can at least bounce things late game, but otherwise it felt like it could have been a better card. I might try a dismember cause I really was lacking a good way to interact with goyf, ooze, and knight during game 1's. All the other cards were very good, although I could see cutting a spell pierce for something spicy.

The sideboard also worked out pretty well, I got to use every card except the gilded drake somehow. In particular the disrupts were actually insane. That card changed the dynamic of several games that I played. During the IQ I was in game 2 after losing the first game in the mirror, and I mulled to 5. I proceeded to crush my opponent by disrupting him twice and quickly taking down the game. I was very impressed with how I was able to interact with opponents for easy value. Absolutely no one played around the card and it was fantastic every time it got cast.

The one card I would like to have in the SB is a copy of life from the loam. I almost lost a game in the mirror to that card where all I had was a goose and I was lucky my opponent never drew a creature. If he had, I would of easily lost due to loam. With the deck doing so well at the GP, it's popularity is bound to increase a bit, so loam could be a good card to pack in the SB for the mirror.

[Tammit67]

Given NLT, I'm really surprised to find you not running stifle, Eric English.

Congrats on the performance, even if it wasn't as good as you wanted

[Water_Wizard]

rug won gp atl interesting list he still has 2 snares plus SB cursed totems


The cursed totems were almost certainly in anticipation of Elves (plus their applicability vs. Maverick - although Mind Harness is better). Totems also stop Griselbrand activations, although I'm not sure they should or would come in against Reanimator.

I played about 10 matches over the weekend. About 4 against Reanimator and 2 against Burn. I'm writing to comment on two of my previous deck choices, running Scavenging Ooze over a Tarmogoyf and running a Blue Elemental Blast in the sideboard.

Scavenging Ooze The main reason I ran Ooze was to:
1) Have a game 1 answer to Reanimator and to a lesser extent Dredge. In games 2/3, Ooze provides a permanent out, versus most of our other graveyard hate, which is 1-time use.
2) To have life gain vs. decks like Burn and U/R. These decks are more aggressive than us, and the life gain can help prolong the game and keep us out of burn range.
3) A big body / graveyard manipulation. Ooze is good against Maverick, as he can shrink a KotR, gain life, and acts as a big body. Against tribal, he can gain life and is a big body. Against UW, he can stop Snapcasters.

However, overall, I found Ooze was just a little bit too slow and unwieldy.
Against Reanimator, I never found enough land to play him. In filtering my deck game 1, burn spells were the lowest priority, followed by extra lands. In games 2/3, extra lands were always going back into the deck. Therefore, I never had the 3 mana I would need to play and activate Ooze on the same turn, so he just sat in my hand.
Against Burn (which was one of the main reasons I was running Ooze - there is a lot of Burn on MTGO), I found Ooze played into Price of Progress poorly. We need a lot of mana to use Ooze, but we don't want more than 2 lands on the table to protect us from Price of Progress. Also, Ooze (without any +1/+1 tokens cannot block and survive any creatures in burn - un pumped, Ooze dies to Hellspark, Marauders, and Vexing Devil and trades with Goblin Guide).
For these reasons, don't like Ooze in this deck (requires too much land to fit the tempo plan).

I was also running a Blue Elemental Blast in the board. It is good vs. Sneak and Show (which seems to have been replaced by Reanimator, not one place in the GP Atlanta T32), Belcher, Goblins, and BURN. However, vs. Burn we can win if we play tight. Vs. Sneak and Show and Belcher, we have enough other counters. And vs. Goblins, well, if you are expecting lots of Goblins, then don't play RUG :) In summary, there are better options than BEB, like Mind Harness :)

[Water_Wizard]

I think it's time to open the Spell Snare / Spell Pierce argument again.

After sitting on the bench for the past few months, is it time to bring Spell Snare back into the deck?

Spell Snare hits Thalia, Snapcaster Mage, Stoneforge Mystic, Tarmogoyf, Counterbalance, Animate Dead, Exhume, and Price of Progress.

The biggest reason not to run Spell Snare was due to games in which it was dead (i.e. Sneak and Show, Dredge, or Hive Mind - they run no 2 cc cards or don't intend to cast them from their hands). Neither Sneak, nor Dredge, nor Hive Mind made the Top 32 at GP Atlanta.

The winner of GP Altlanter, Vidugiris, played 2 Spell Snare in his deck, although also included the full number of Pierces. (Also, for those who doubt Though Scour, Vidurgiris ran 3, presumably cutting a Lighting Bolt for his 3rd - what does that tell you about the power of Thought Scour?) However, the other 6 RUG decks to make Top 32 ran a combined total of 0 Spell Snares, showing Spell Snare is not generally accepted in RUG decks.

Was Vidugiris ahead of the curve? Will RUG see a rise in Spell Snare next weekend? Or will Spell Snare find its way out of the RUG list?

[Pherion]

I think it's time to open the Spell Snare / Spell Pierce argument again.

After sitting on the bench for the past few months, is it time to bring Spell Snare back into the deck?

Spell Snare hits Thalia, Snapcaster Mage, Stoneforge Mystic, Tarmogoyf, Animate Dead, Exhume, and Price of Progress.

The biggest reason not to run Spell Snare was due to games in which it was dead (i.e. Sneak and Show, Dredge, or Hive Mind - they run no 2 cc cards or don't intend to cast them from their hands). Neither Sneak, nor Dredge, nor Hive Mind made the Top 32 at GP Atlanta.

The winner of GP Altlanter, Vidugiris, played 2 Spell Snare in his deck, although also included the full number of Pierces. (Also, for those who doubt Though Scour, Vidurgiris ran 3, presumably cutting a Lighting Bolt for his 3rd - what does that tell you about the power of Thought Scour?) However, the other 6 RUG decks to make Top 32 ran a combined total of 0 Spell Snares, showing Spell Snare is not generally accepted in RUG decks.

Was Vidugiris ahead of the curve? Will RUG see a rise in Spell Snare next weekend? Or will Spell Snare find its out of the RUG list?

Ugh, my internet skills are lacking today - I can't find the top lists for Atlanta for the life of me... Can you link me :( lol

[Mark Sun]

Got to hang out with chinEsE girl this weekend while we jammed jimirynk's list. I did pretty poorly on my end, 2 Byes and was still dead after Round 6. I felt like the list was pretty good going in but some mulligans (which are pretty brutal for this archetype in general, going to 5 is a death sentence which happened twice) put me in a bad spot and that was pretty much all she wrote. Missed Life from the Loam and Stifle, which were cards that I had been running for a while but I felt like it was a Spell Pierce weekend and I had been on the fence about going the turbo-Mongoose plan with Thought Scour.



Was Vidugiris ahead of the curve? Will RUG see a rise in Spell Snare next weekend? Or will Spell Snare find its out of the RUG list?

Pretty sure he got handed the deck before the tournament. Conditional disruption is... conditional.

[Water_Wizard]

Ugh, my internet skills are lacking today - I can't find the top lists for Atlanta for the life of me... Can you link me :( lol

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Events.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpatl12/welcome

[Valtrix]

Something I've been wondering lately, if Terminus and Entreat the Angels are consistent enough to be played in the UW miracles deck, is Thunderous Wrath possibly consistent enough to be played in this deck? Now, I haven't played this deck much so I am by no means making a claim that the deck should run this. However, if the control deck can play 4+ miracles, I feel like this deck would be able to support some miracles too, and a :r: 5 damage burn spell seems pretty strong. I know they have top which does help, but in a more aggressive deck I don't think needing to save spell is as huge of a deal. I'm assuming this was tried and failed due to consistency, but was curious nonetheless.

[Pherion]

Something I've been wondering lately, if Terminus and Entreat the Angels are consistent enough to be played in the UW miracles deck, is Thunderous Wrath possibly consistent enough to be played in this deck? Now, I haven't played this deck much so I am by no means making a claim that the deck should run this. However, if the control deck can play 4+ miracles, I feel like this deck would be able to support some miracles too, and a :r: 5 damage burn spell seems pretty strong. I know they have top which does help, but in a more aggressive deck I don't think needing to save spell is as huge of a deal. I'm assuming this was tried and failed due to consistency, but was curious nonetheless.

I've been playing with Miracle lately, and the consistency is based upon things that aren't in RUG. Top makes a huge difference - allowing you to prevent the draw of the Miracle in the first place, until you need it at least. Brainstorm and three Jaces make the ones in hand less awkward. The only thing RUG has to solve a Wrath in the opening hand is brainstorm - this means that if it's in your opener you're probably going to mulligan.

From my experience RUG is not the deck to run Miracles in :(

[mike1987]

How do you guys view our matchup against U/W miracles? I find stifle subpar useless in this match up. SDT gives them so much card filtering, it's not funny but to FOW a SDT seems quite a waste as well. Basically Terminus is very bad for our tempo, somehow whenever they miracle terminus, my hand has no FOW or spell pierce ain't helping much. Game drags till they miracle entreat or slams down jace. Any advice?

[rgripp]

You can Stifle the Miracle trigger, after they reveal, but sadly they don't have to pay the mana to cast it. Still, full-cost miracles are just overpriced spells.

Also, pretty much in ANY matchup, if I get to 2-for-1 myself and FoW a Top, I probably will and be happy about it. Your chances of winning a game greatly diminish when your opponent gets an active Top.

[kiwi]

Nimble Mongoose is mvp against miracle decks, just drop it and protect it.
Sulfuric Vortex in sb also is very good vs miracle decks.

[Final Ritual]

I played jimirynk's list at the GP going 6-2-1 on day 1, then in the SCG IQ going 5-1 then losing my win and in for round 7. The list I played looked like this:

4 delver
4 mongoose
3 goyf
1 ooze

4 brainstrom
4 ponder
2 thought scour
4 lightning bolt
2 forked bolt
1 dead//gone
4 spell pierce
4 daze
4 force

4 trop
3 volc
4 misty
4 tarn
4 wasteland

sb:
2 REB
2 rough//tumble
1 sulfur elemental
3 crypt
1 gilded drake
3 submerge
1 ancient grudge
2 disrupt

Even though I didn't do so hot in either event, I still felt like the list, and in general the deck, was very good. My loses in the GP were to a sneak and show player who was very good, and to burn (why anyone wants to play that deck at a GP, I have no idea). And I drew with maverick when he kept topdecking zenith or ooze and his board has no creatures vs my 1. Oh well. The IQ my loses were to goblins (not the greatest matchup), as well as the mirror where I punted game 3. Otherwise I beat a wide variety of other decks, from home brews to dredge to UW and other stuff.

I was pretty happy with the maindeck, although I'm not sure exactly how good dead//gone is. Like sure it's sweet to kill all sorts of things turn 1, and you can at least bounce things late game, but otherwise it felt like it could have been a better card. I might try a dismember cause I really was lacking a good way to interact with goyf, ooze, and knight during game 1's. All the other cards were very good, although I could see cutting a spell pierce for something spicy.

The sideboard also worked out pretty well, I got to use every card except the gilded drake somehow. In particular the disrupts were actually insane. That card changed the dynamic of several games that I played. During the IQ I was in game 2 after losing the first game in the mirror, and I mulled to 5. I proceeded to crush my opponent by disrupting him twice and quickly taking down the game. I was very impressed with how I was able to interact with opponents for easy value. Absolutely no one played around the card and it was fantastic every time it got cast.

The one card I would like to have in the SB is a copy of life from the loam. I almost lost a game in the mirror to that card where all I had was a goose and I was lucky my opponent never drew a creature. If he had, I would of easily lost due to loam. With the deck doing so well at the GP, it's popularity is bound to increase a bit, so loam could be a good card to pack in the SB for the mirror.

I agree that Thresh needs dismember. I lost to Edleman who piloted UW delver to a top 4 finish. He won both of our postboard games because Jotun Grunt was kicking my balls in. It was so bad I boarded in my gilded drake so I could have an out without 2 for 1 myself.

Also being able to kill Knight against Maverick and Goyf in the mirror is huge.

[Tammit67]

I had been on the fence about going the turbo-Mongoose plan with Thought Scour.


Sorry to hear you didn't do so hot. I hate thought scour. If your local meta is a bunch of control matchups where you need a 3/3 goose asap, ok I concede there it is nice, but otherwise just playing the deck without it goose is still amazing in those matchups. Its not like they are flooding the board with creatures to block outside of lingering souls/snapcaster. i feel you can play around those two while putting them on the backfoot elsewhere without scouring coming into it. It just hasn't been useful to me at all.

[Mark Sun]

I agree that Thresh needs dismember. I lost to Edleman who piloted UW delver to a top 4 finish. He won both of our postboard games because Jotun Grunt was kicking my balls in. It was so bad I boarded in my gilded drake so I could have an out without 2 for 1 myself.

Also being able to kill Knight against Maverick and Goyf in the mirror is huge.

I wouldn't mind Dismember right now. I would probably replace a Lightning Bolt because I don't see giving up a Forked Bolt effect any time soon. Sorry to hear about your beats with Jotun Grunt, that card is a corner case (obviously something I don't want to see) and turned out to be a pretty good call for the tournament.


Sorry to hear you didn't do so hot. I hate thought scour. If your local meta is a bunch of control matchups where you need a 3/3 goose asap, ok I concede there it is nice, but otherwise just playing the deck without it goose is still amazing in those matchups. Its not like they are flooding the board with creatures to block outside of lingering souls/snapcaster. i feel you can play around those two while putting them on the backfoot elsewhere without scouring coming into it. It just hasn't been useful to me at all.

I'm also not a fan of Thought Scour, but I realize the applications. It also has a little bit of added value with Submerge so it was one of the factors I considered when I sleeved up the 75. Wasn't running well with RUG lately anyways, and won't have another big tournament until Gen Con to try out any changes.

[Sturtzilla]

Hey All!

I managed to sneak through another week of locals to win again. I played against Zoo, Belcher, U/W Delver, and two U/W Micacle Controls! I went 4-0-1, drawing the last round. I will post a brief report in a day or two. Just saying that I have been having some good luck and I guess playing fairly well too!

[DarkConfidant]

I'm still rather new to playing this deck and wanted to seek advice on a few points.

My major areas of concern are as follows:

"4th Force of Will?"
My rational for constructing the deck with three Force of Will was largely based on Drew Levin's primer. The warrants for this choice are that over the course of the game I usually don't need to see Force of Will more than twice. Additionally, pitching only 1 - 2 cards per game seems far more advantageous for this deck then pitching 2 - 3 cards per game. However, if the format takes a brief shift toward Reanimator (as opposed to Show and Tell), is this a justified change?

2 Fire // Ice? These are the slots I'm most torn on. Between Rough // Tumble, Dead // Gone, and Fork Bolt, the options at this slot are abundant to say the least. Ice and Gone seem to offer answers to Griselbrand (even if Ice is only temporary). However, Rough is a great answer to Maverick and Merfolk while Fork Bolt and Dead seem to answer Thalia and Mother of Runes. I believe Fire // Ice offer the best combinations, but wanted to get some input from anyone who has played the deck.

3rd Spell Snare? I'm not sure if this is necessary. I like Spell Snare in the deck as a lot of the problematic cards against this deck cost two mana: Stoneforge Mystic, Tarmogoyf, Thalia, Chalice at 1, Scavenging Ooze, Animate Dead, Exhume. However, I'm not sure if a third copy is necessary. I've considered cutting it for a third Thought Scour or the fourth Force of Will.

My metagame consists of Elves, BW Stax, Esper Stoneblade, RUG, Maverick, Reanimator, Burn, and 2 Spiral Tide decks.

For reference, here is my current 75:

Lands (19)
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn

Creatures (12)
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets

Spells (29)
4 Spell Pierce
3 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire // Ice
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Thought Scour

Sideboard (15)
2 Sulfer Elemental
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Submerge
1 Scavenging Ooze

Thank you for any help.

[Vandalize]

I'm still rather new to playing this deck and wanted to seek advice on a few points.

My major areas of concern are as follows:

"4th Force of Will?"
My rational for constructing the deck with three Force of Will was largely based on Drew Levin's primer. The warrants for this choice are that over the course of the game I usually don't need to see Force of Will more than twice. Additionally, pitching only 1 - 2 cards per game seems far more advantageous for this deck then pitching 2 - 3 cards per game. However, if the format takes a brief shift toward Reanimator (as opposed to Show and Tell), is this a justified change?

2 Fire // Ice? These are the slots I'm most torn on. Between Rough // Tumble, Dead // Gone, and Fork Bolt, the options at this slot are abundant to say the least. Ice and Gone seem to offer answers to Griselbrand (even if Ice is only temporary). However, Rough is a great answer to Maverick and Merfolk while Fork Bolt and Dead seem to answer Thalia and Mother of Runes. I believe Fire // Ice offer the best combinations, but wanted to get some input from anyone who has played the deck.

3rd Spell Snare? I'm not sure if this is necessary. I like Spell Snare in the deck as a lot of the problematic cards against this deck cost two mana: Stoneforge Mystic, Tarmogoyf, Thalia, Chalice at 1, Scavenging Ooze, Animate Dead, Exhume. However, I'm not sure if a third copy is necessary. I've considered cutting it for a third Thought Scour or the fourth Force of Will.

My metagame consists of Elves, BW Stax, Esper Stoneblade, RUG, Maverick, Reanimator, Burn, and 2 Spiral Tide decks.

For reference, here is my current 75:

Lands (19)
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn

Creatures (12)
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets

Spells (29)
4 Spell Pierce
3 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire // Ice
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Thought Scour

Sideboard (15)
2 Sulfer Elemental
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Submerge
1 Scavenging Ooze

Thank you for any help.

Needs moar Stifle. And less Spell Snare.

Stifle hits both Stoneforge Mystic and Animate Dead. Everything else you can Spell Pierce or kill with Bolt (except Goyf, which shouldn't be a big problem).

Moreover, Stifle just wins games by punishing bad keeps. It's great against Miracle Control and Griselbrand.

[TarmoX]

Needs moar Stifle. And less Spell Snare.

Stifle hits both Stoneforge Mystic and Animate Dead. Everything else you can Spell Pierce or kill with Bolt (except Goyf, which shouldn't be a big problem).

Moreover, Stifle just wins games by punishing bad keeps. It's great against Miracle Control and Griselbrand.


I always like Stifle is MVP in various meta!

[poxy14]

once won by stifling an annihilator effect from emrakul, when im down to 16...
swung next turn for the win, i wont forget this : )

[JeroenC]

I went Top 8 today, went 5-0+2 intentional draws in the swiss. (Lost in two fast games versus the UW Miracle in Top 8, no byes for me.) Decklist felt very good:

4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
1 Taiga
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze

I was mostly happy with the deck though I wish I'd have one other counterspell to go down to 3 Pierce maindeck. 2 Snares feels correct though, so I can't go for a 3/3 split there.

About the Taiga: I had to mulligan once because of it, but for the rest of the day I liked it a lot.

In the sideboard, most notable card was the 2 Ancient Grudges. Sided it in in 4 of my 5 Swiss matches, always decided at least one game.

x-post from the BUG-thread where I accidently posted this first.

[Awaclus]

Decklist felt very good:
No wonder, any deck with 5 Nimble Mongooses in it has to be good. :wink:

[JeroenC]

Wow, first I post it in the wrong thread, and I also mislist cards. So much derping.

That was a Scavenging Ooze (but yeah, Goose is a god amongst mortals).

[Lans89]

RUG Tempo/Canadian *****/Ugr *****/RUG Delver decks were always so basic! Example:

18 land
4 goose
4 delver
4 goyf

4 fow
4 daze
4 snare
4 stifle
4 bolt
2 fire//ice
4 bs
4 ponder

But lately I spot a lot of different lists. Most people seem to drop Stifle and/or Spell Snare completely, while adding Spell Pierce to the maindeck + things like Thought Scourge, a single Ooze and a 19th land..

Why exactly did these changes occur all that sudden? I think it's not only because of an increasing number in Reanimate/Sneaky Show decks.. Maybe the more common mirror match has something to do with it too? Enlighten me..

For the GP in Ghent I have to choose between Maverick, Sneaky Show and RUG... But with all those recent changes (also in Maverick) it might be to late to adapt and test/develop the perfect list ^^!

[Atog]

Played yesterday in a small 31 player tournament to finals, and then losing to mirror. Played quite standard list with 1x scavening ooze in tarmogoyf's place and with stifles and 1 dismember / forked bolt. Played in swiss against these decks:

R1: UWB-stoneblade 2-0 (opponent did get a game loss from decklist error, nice way to start tournament :S)
R2: don't remember what, something, won 2-0 or 2-1
R3: Maveric 0-2
R4: High Tide 2-0
R5: Sneak and Show 2-0

Top8:

Burn (win by opponent own fail) 2-1
Maveric (same player who faced during swiss, mind harness winning game here) 2-1
Finals: Mirror (ugh, 1st game mana screw, 2nd game opponent had four tarmogoyfs and couple other dudes and i didn't have enought answers)

Getting couple tarmogoyf's for my troubles so can't be sad :) This deck is going to vacation, since have couple other decks to start play with so others, keep on winning!

[ShiftyKapree]

So what's everyone running these days with the new meta. Now that merfolk is in the game what is everyone doing to adapt to it. I just don't believe pyroclasm will be enough and SNT is still there. What are your guys list lately? and SB?

[wcm8]

So what's everyone running these days with the new meta. Now that merfolk is in the game what is everyone doing to adapt to it. I just don't believe pyroclasm will be enough and SNT is still there. What are your guys list lately? and SB?

4 Bolts, 2-3 Forked Bolt, and then 2-3 REBs in the SB should be enough to give you game against Merfolk. If it's really a problem in your local meta, increase the amount of MD removal and/or SB REBs. I can also see bringing in Ancient Grudges from the SB for their Vials and Jitte. Scavenging Ooze is also useful in aggro matchups to give you a big beater and recoup some life loss (assuming you don't get Wasteland'ed to death -- speaking of which, Life from the Loam is another good option to bring in -- both as protection and a way to recursively destroy their Mutavaults and/or Cavern of Souls.)

Spell Snare can also be a good choice.

Just try to kill their creatures before they get out of Bolt range and the matchup should be relatively easy, certainly no harder than versus Maverick.

[Koby]

Umezawa's Jitte helps against Tribal. Especially on the Best Little Flyer that Could.

[menace13]

Umezawa's Jitte helps against Tribal. Especially on the Best Little Flyer that Could.

I once ran into a RUG deck with Grim Lavamancers in a Daily Event while on Merfolk.
Turn 1 Grim >> Merfolk.

Off Topic- It was actually Dunkle... And if you're reading this Dunkle, I hope one day someone chucks a minty fresh Grim at your eyeball and you get a paper cut in the eyeball!

[ImpinAintEasy]

I once ran into a RUG deck with Grim Lavamancers in a Daily Event while on Merfolk.
Turn 1 Grim >> Merfolk.

Off Topic- It was actually Dunkle... And if you're reading this Dunkle, I hope one day someone chucks a minty fresh Grim at your eyeball and you get a paper cut in the eyeball!

Which is ironic, cause didn't Dunkle win some big tourney with Merfolk lol

[wbw]

Hi, everyone. I've been lurking for a while (since page 100, actually) and decided to post.

I've been playing Thresh since 2005. I got the deck back then because it was cheap (how time changes) and fun. I'm introducing myself just to make clear that I'm very used to the archetype, even though I'm not updated on metagaming and stuff, because I don't play very often.

I'm going to play on a champ this weekend and would appreciate some input from you guys.
It will be a blind meta (at least for me), and this is my current list:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
-- 19 Lands

3 Vendilion Clique
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
-- 11 Creatures

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
-- 8 Cantrips

2 Forked Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
-- 6 Burn

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
-- 16 Permission

Sideboard:
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Submerge
2 Rough/Tumble
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Spell Pierce
2 Red Elemental Blast

A few comments:

1) Nope, I can't buy goyfs right now, maybe latter (it's expensive, ya know). It is worst with Ooze, since it is out-of-stock everywhere in my country.
2) I'm not willing to change to UR Delver only, since I miss even more cards from that archetype.
3) I'm more fond on the Stifle plan.
4) Cliques are not goyfs but are better against combo/control and worst against aggro (pretty obvious, though).
5) Sideboard is bad because I'm trying to hit a bit of everything, since I don't know the meta.

Well, I'm considering cutting Spell Snare entirely, because they have been sub-par lately. In its place I'm considering to add +1 Pierce, +1 Dismember and +1 Green Sun's Zenith. The Dismember is mostly to help against aggros, because the lack of goyfs. And since sometimes I miss having more threats, I believe a Zenith as a 5th mongoose will help. However, since I'm a lot more dependent on mongeese, I would like to know if Though Scour is really worth it, and if it is what should I cut to make space for it?

Thanks in advance.

[Water_Wizard]

Have you considered Snapcaster Mage over Vendilion Clique? Or a combination of the both of them?

I would go +1 Spell Pierce, -1 Spell Snare.

If you want to run Thought Scour, than +2 Thought Scour, -2 Spell Snare. Thought Scour is good vs. Control decks to grow Mongoose (UW mainly) and it is also good vs. decks like Sneak and Show and Reanimator to speed up the Mongoose beats.

I like your sideboard.

Dismember is good if you are expecting a lot of aggro (as you noted). I like GSZ if you had other green targets (Ooze/Goyf), but it loses some value if you can only pull Mongoose.

[useL]

I really want to go to Belgium playing RUG in a week but .. I'm afraid of Goblins after the two last faceoffs I had against them.

Should I really have to pack like sweepers in my board? Feels stupid but 5 burn spells just was not enough when they have a cave out and wastelands got scarce.

Suggestions?

[wbw]

Yeah, I tried Snapcaster over Clique, but since I lack strong threats (i.e. goyf), I found that Clique's flying body was more relevant than the Mage card advantage.

About Thought Scour, that is exactly the point. I don't know if I want it or not. Way back in time, I used to play Portent over Mental Note, but things are different now, so I really don't know if the explosiveness of a threshed mongoose is better over more disruption.

I agree with you in the GSZ, the problem is that sometimes 11 threats is not enough. If I use the Thought Scour, 11 critters may be enough, since I'll have more cantrips.

Well, the sideboard was assembled to cover all angles, the backslash is that I'll not be able to truly hate any opposing deck. Glad you liked.

[Water_Wizard]

One problem with Thought Scour is that while it is a cantrip, it can put your threats into your graveyard. I run a single Scavenging Ooze and I've Thought Scoured it away before. In theory, Thought Scour should be drawing you more threats. But in reality and depending upon your luck, you may end up binning your threats.

@ useL and about Goblins - I've been having similar experiences. Facing creature decks without forests to allow the use of Submerge is hard. What do you think of adding some number of Blue Elemental Blasts to the board?

[Woe]

As far as the no goyf conversation, I would embrace a high count of thought scour and get back to werebear. I prefer 4 goyf main and personally dislike thought scour but it seems completely playable if I couldn't borrow goyfs. Also liking cursed totem sideboard.
4 Werebear
4 Geese
4 Delver

[Mark Sun]

One problem with Thought Scour is that while it is a cantrip, it can put your threats into your graveyard. I run a single Scavenging Ooze and I've Thought Scoured it away before. In theory, Thought Scour should be drawing you more threats. But in reality and depending upon your luck, you may end up binning your threats.

Based on laws of randomization, this is not a factor to consider. I personally think Thought Scour is not as useful as it was, and in this metagame the turbo-Mongoose plan isn't as gamebreaking as it used to be. If you are paranoid, though, hold on to it to pair with a cantrip or to pitch it to Force of Will.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Thoughtscour reads "Mill 3. Do Nothing."

[Justin]

Well, it's a little better than that, as it accelerates threshold for Mongoose and can also pump Goyf. It's best played following a Brainstorm. Put the two cards you don't need on top and then mill them with Thought Scour. Likewise, if you see one good card and two bad cards off a Ponder, you can draw the good one and Thought Scour away the other two. You can also target your opponet with the mill ability in certain situations (after an opponent drew a card with Top, if you suspect that they're trying to set up a Miracle card, or after Enlightened Tutor). But yeah, more often than not, you will end up milling two random cards. I think that Thought Scour is borderline-playable for this deck, but I've been playing two and like them well enough.

[Sunday Funday]

I really want to go to Belgium playing RUG in a week but .. I'm afraid of Goblins after the two last faceoffs I had against them.

Should I really have to pack like sweepers in my board? Feels stupid but 5 burn spells just was not enough when they have a cave out and wastelands got scarce.

Suggestions?

I had similar experience but now my list runs 4 lightning bolt and 3 fire/ice as well as one rough/tumble in the board. I haven't loss to elves, goblins, or merfolk in a while. This deck obviously struggles with creature hordes and I do find sweepers necessary.

[goobafish]

Thought you guys might be interested in this, it is a primer by teammate and PT Champion Alexander Hayne:

http://manadeprived.com/2012/07/canadian-threshold-a-primer.html

[Blitzbold]

I really want to go to Belgium playing RUG in a week but .. I'm afraid of Goblins after the two last faceoffs I had against them.

Should I really have to pack like sweepers in my board? Feels stupid but 5 burn spells just was not enough when they have a cave out and wastelands got scarce.

Suggestions?

Presuming a fairly stock list your maindeck contains 8 1-drops to stop a 1st turn Lackey as well as 4-6 1cmc burn spells. Aether Vial should be countered. If you can't, try to stifle the first one or even two activations. If you're able to counter Vial, safe your Stifles (should you pack them) for creature triggers, mainly Ringleader and Gang-Bang Commander.

I used to play Pyroclasm in old Canadian. Nowadays Rough // Tumble should seariously be considered (superior due to not killing your insects) when expecting some numbers of Goblins at a bigger event. Additionally, it's one of your best weapons against Elves and also can also be brought in vs. Merfolk, where you should try to Bolt / REB their lords so that it can kill their team. Speaking of this, I even used to board Clasm against Dredge. As there are also applications against Maverick, Rough // Tumble is definitely not the worst card for a GP Sideboard.

[Pherion]

Thought you guys might be interested in this, it is a primer by teammate and PT Champion Alexander Hayne:

http://manadeprived.com/2012/07/canadian-threshold-a-primer.html

Nice little primer. I look forward to trying a few things he mentioned! Thanks for sharing :)

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

The primer suggests Tumble Magnet.

Genius.

[wbw]

@Woe: Well, I don't think goyf/ooze can be replaced. If you are not using it (like myself), I believe it is better to change the role of the replacement. Theses slots are for big bodies and Werebear is bad at it (Quirion Dryad too), I don't recall any 2cc creature able to fill this role. That's why I'm using Cliques, the big problem is the 3cc mana cost, but they are still playable. To be honest, I think I should be playing something else, since I don't own goyf. But that's not possible due to time and money constraints, so I'll stick to use a sub-optimal list with Cliques.

@useL: Two sweepers on the SB, should do it. If you use Stifles, they are nice too, being able to counter Ringleader drawing, Matron tutoring, Piledriver pumping, Vial drops, Siege-Gang tokes etc. (Oh, just realised now that I mostly repeated what Blitzbold said, sorry)

@goobafish: Thanks for the link, really nice primer.

@everyone: I'm considering upping my threat count from 11 to 12. The main candidates were: GSZ (as 5th goose), Phyrexian Dreadnought (mini combo with stifle) or Terravore (bigger than opposing Knights if you have at least 3 lands on graveyard). However, I'll be using a Phyrexian Metamorph, since I already own it and it is very versatile, giving an out to equipments, legends and big creatures. I'll tell you latter how it went.

[Pherion]

@Woe: Well, I don't think goyf/ooze can be replaced. If you are not using it (like myself), I believe it is better to change the role of the replacement. Theses slots are for big bodies and Werebear is bad at it (Quirion Dryad too), I don't recall any 2cc creature able to fill this role. That's why I'm using Cliques, the big problem is the 3cc mana cost, but they are still playable. To be honest, I think I should be playing something else, since I don't own goyf. But that's not possible due to time and money constraints, so I'll stick to use a sub-optimal list with Cliques.

@useL: Two sweepers on the SB, should do it. If you use Stifles, they are nice too, being able to counter Ringleader drawing, Matron tutoring, Piledriver pumping, Vial drops, Siege-Gang tokes etc. (Oh, just realised now that I mostly repeated what Blitzbold said, sorry)

@goobafish: Thanks for the link, really nice primer.

@everyone: I'm considering upping my threat count from 11 to 12. The main candidates were: GSZ (as 5th goose), Phyrexian Dreadnought (mini combo with stifle) or Terravore (bigger than opposing Knights if you have at least 3 lands on graveyard). However, I'll be using a Phyrexian Metamorph, since I already own it and it is very versatile, giving an out to equipments, legends and big creatures. I'll tell you latter how it went.

What are your current threats? You've got 4 delvers, 4 goose, and what else? If you've got a friendly group you can playtest with Goyf proxies, you'll probably be convinced of their necessity :) otherwise, you're right - you'll have to stick to sub-optimal stuff.

I would not use Dreadnaught. It was a previous win condition, but now it's just bad IMO. It takes 2 cards to make one fatty, granted - It's really big, but it dies to LOTS of stuff - namely Swords to Plowshares.

[wbw]

What are your current threats? You've got 4 delvers, 4 goose, and what else? If you've got a friendly group you can playtest with Goyf proxies, you'll probably be convinced of their necessity :) otherwise, you're right - you'll have to stick to sub-optimal stuff.

Currently, I'm using 4 delvers, 4 goose and 3 Cliques. And I'll have to stick with that, because the champ is tomorrow. Well, I'm not planning winning anyway, I just don't want to be a sitting duck and have some fun.

[Julian23]

Maybe you should exercise your right to bear arms.

[Woe]

Honestly I'm not saying Werebear is equal to Tarmogoyf, but I definitely think he's good enough at being a big body. Tarmogoyf has generally been a 3/4 to a 4/5 for me. So werebear's thresh 4/4 is pretty good, but you still have to go in with thought scour. Yes I know thought scour can turbo Geese and is removal with submerge, I still don't like it and would only play it if on the 8 thresh creatures plan. I played 2 clique at SCG seattle and they played very well as I don't like to tap out and pass the turn depending on the match. I had them win me one match and lose me a match (karakas). It was a close call on the loss but he kept me off the last 3 damage I needed and couldn't find a stifle or wasteland.. or BOLT with all my filtering and free filtering! The thing about Tarmogoyf is the fact that he deploys t2 for profit.

[Awaclus]

I wouldn't want to rely on a 3 costing creature in a deck with 15 lands. Here's some ideas in addition to the already mentioned Werebear:

Kird Ape
Goblin Guide
Skinshifter
Quirion Dryad
Skyshroud Elite
Scythe Tiger
Grim Lavamancer


I don't know if any of those will work, but at least I can imagine a situation where the card would shine for each of them.

Also, Tempo Thresh has been successful before with only Goyf and Goose, so having only Goose and Delver for the creature package wouldn't necessarily be completely out of question either.

[wbw]

Maybe you should exercise your right to bear arms.

Well, firearms are forbidden in my country. I will have to use fairies instead. :laugh:

[Julian23]

Quirion Dryad

Now we're talking!


Well, firearms are forbidden in my country. I will have to use fairies instead. :laugh:

I'm not sure you know what I was referring to :wink: .

[Woe]

I wouldn't want to rely on a 3 costing creature in a deck with 15 lands. Here's some ideas in addition to the already mentioned Werebear:

Kird Ape
Goblin Guide
Skinshifter
Quirion Dryad
Skyshroud Elite
Scythe Tiger
Grim Lavamancer





Running out a clique wasn't really an issue. I play stifles in my list and between that and cantrips it was actually quite good. I wanted to address a couple of the other creatures though. Goblin guide is pretty terrible when you are trying to keep people off lands and not playing price of progress. I've been testing Grim Lavamancer since the spoiling of Master of the Pearl trident. Obviously you don't run them and Geese in the same list but if you run them in Geese slot you definitely need 4 Tarmogoyf more then ever. I've been having issues to run them main or as a 3 of in the board. Sometimes Geese are the answer. The clock is way better, but Grim lavamancer is a blow out to fish and Maverick when coupled with the already present spot removal and counters. I play kird ape in the modern version of the deck. It's alright, I'm not trying to live through Volcanic Fallouts in legacy though.

@ WBW Update us with your Tourney results with the Fae Beats as your beefy creatures.

[Koby]

Quirion Dryad

Now we're talking!


Previous Level Thresh aka Gro!

[dunk]

Off Topic- It was actually Dunkle... And if you're reading this Dunkle, I hope one day someone chucks a minty fresh Grim at your eyeball and you get a paper cut in the eyeball!

Just happened today :pirate:




Also, Tempo Thresh has been successful before with only Goyf and Goose, so having only Goose and Delver for the creature package wouldn't necessarily be completely out of question either.

Succesful yes, but all in all less consistant. I wouldn't play less than 11 creatures. Don't forget, without a clock all this deck does is trying to win the worst control deck ever award.

[feline]

Does this deck even have a bad matchup? lol, everything I test against it, best case scenario the games are 50/50.

[JeroenC]

I've got a pretty rough time vs stuff like Nic Fit, Maverick or Dredge.

[Purgatory]

And if we're talking old and smaller archetypes (that still sees play around here -_-), anything with Loam in it, Aggro Loam and Lands in particular, is an awful matchup. I rolled 2 Price of Progress in my sideboard for a while.

[Dzra]

Maverick is pretty rough, even with Submerge and Sulfur Elemental. I had been running a Stifleless version though, maybe Stifle RUG has better game against Maverick? A Thalia plus a Wasteland within the first few turns is usually game over and lategame they have the ability to stabilize at low life with KotR or Jitte.

[reev_]

Maverick (well... KotR.) made me swap my deck. Really.
I had played against maverick in all champ who I played. Like 7 or 8 times in 4 or 5 championships. So today I play tempo version of team america, with some gtft and Pernicious deed.

I'll back soon again with like 4 submerge and 3 mind harness in next championship, probably. And im thinking about vapor snag.

[wbw]

@ WBW Update us with your Tourney results with the Fae Beats as your beefy creatures.

Well... it was bad. I did 2-5. It was mostly because I was a bit nervous and didn't play very well. The deck was good, but it punishes you if you don't play it tightly (not exactly news :rolleyes:).

About the Vendilion Cliques, I still feel they are a mixed bag. Most games it would be irrelevant if I had goyf in its place. But in some, I could'd lost (flash and flying are awesome) and in others I could'd won (I really needed a big body or a 2cc threat).

To be honest, I still don't think goyf is the other creature this deck needs, however there is nothing better so far. I would rather have 3-4 more nimble mongoose :laugh:.

Just for reference, I played:

(19 lands)
4 strand, 4 delta, 4 tropical, 3 volcanic, 4 wasteland
(11 threats)
4 delvers, 4 mongoose, 3 vendilion clique
(7 removals)
1 dismember, 2 forked bolt, 4 lightning bolt
(8 cantrips)
4 brainstorm, 4 ponder
(16 permissions)
4 fow, 3 daze, 4 stifle, 4 spell pierce
(SB)
1 Phyrexian Metamorph, 1 Krosan Grip, 1 Ancient Grudge, 1 Sulfuric Vortex, 1 Sulfur Elemental, 2 REB, 2 Rough//Tumble, 3 Submerge, 3 Tormod's Crypt

There were 65 players in the tourney and lots of variety (I spotted at least 20 archetypes). Anyway, the matches I faced were:

Aggro Loam (0x2)
Burn (1x2)
Tezzeret Prison (2x0)
Goblins (0x2)
Burn (1x2)
Slivers (2x1)
Merfolks (1x2)

Short version of what happened:

(about matches)
- Aggro Loam is a bad match up;
- I hate Chalice of the Void;
- Burn is a very, very close match;
- Cavern of Souls makes fighting tribal decks way harder;
- I screwed up hard vs Goblins (also, I didn't know Goblins had CotV in the SB);
- I misplayed lots of time (always realizing a split second to late), which costed me quite a few games.
- And I really hate Chalice of the Void;

(about the deck/cards)
- Nimble Mongoose was MVP;
- FoWs were awesome too, I will still play the full set;
- Rough//Tumble was great, I should'd played 3 in the board;
- Dismember was very good and will stay as a singleton;
- Stifles never shined, but helped enough to justify their usage;
- I didn't miss Spell Snares, even though in some specific situations, they could had been useful;
- Forked Bolt was bad, I wished it was Chain Lightning;
- The Metamorph is so-so, but it is a very catch-all option. I would play it again in a blind meta;
- Some cards of the SB never showed or weren't required, so I can't comment about them.

I don't think a long report is due in this thread, but if someone gets curious about details on the matches, just ask and I will post about it.

[I am the brainwasher]

After GP Atlanta, I was wondering how a list with 18 lands and exactly 0 Stifle did so well. Even more surprising, how a list with 4 Stifle was in a need of 19 lands.

Here are some numbers:

Number of lands in start hands:
0 Land(s): 3937 times (3,94%)
1 Land(s): 18467 times (18,47%)
2 Land(s): 32513 times (32,51%)
3 Land(s): 28192 times (28,19%)
4 Land(s): 12975 times (12,98%)
5 Land(s): 3332 times (3,33%)
6 Land(s): 541 times (0,54%)
7 Land(s): 43 times (0,04%)

Those propabilities evolved from a calculation with a whooping 100.000 starting hands (which should be a large enough sample size to be somewhat accurate).

Conclude whatever you feel like.

Edit: This calculation is for 18 lands, including Wasteland.

[Lejay]

Statistics are cool but you have to use them properly. Your calculations don't take into account the times your only land(s) is/are wasteland(s). You should redo it with colored lands.

[I am the brainwasher]

You should redo it with colored lands.

Number of lands in start hands:
0 Land(s): 10253 times (10,25%)
1 Land(s): 28992 times (28,99%)
2 Land(s): 33441 times (33,44%)
3 Land(s): 19747 times (19,75%)
4 Land(s): 6329 times (6,33%)
5 Land(s): 1111 times (1,11%)
6 Land(s): 121 times (0,12%)
7 Land(s): 6 times (0,01%)

Edit: This calculation is for 14 coloured sources and does not include Wasteland.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Moar Grim Lavamancer and Kird Ape :cry:

[Lans89]

Hello,

Could some of you please share your thoughts about this list:

Maindeck:
1x Scavenging Ooze
3x Tarmogoyf
4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Delver of Secrets
--
12

4x Force of will
4x Daze
4x Spell Pierce
3x Thought Scour
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Fire//Ice
--
29

4x Wasteland
3x Tropical Island
3x Volcanic Island
1x Taiga
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
--
19

Sideboard:
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Gilded Drake
2x Ancient Grudge
3x Surgical extraction
3x Submerge
2x Pyroblast
2x Rough//Tumble
--
15

Some explanations:

0 Stifle: I hate to topdeck this card and I prefer to play Spell Pierce, although most people play that card instead of the Spell Snares nowadays. I never thought that RUG would ever cut Stifle, but it worked out pretty good so far.
0 Spell Snare: I'm not the only one cutting this card. First I went down to 2, but when I wanted some room for Thought Scour I removed both of them + the single Dismember I used to play.
3 Thought Scour: 1 is often enough to transform your pathetic Nimble Mongooses into a real threat! It also works great in combination with Submerge, which is awesome and often makes me laugh :tongue:
1 Taiga: I played 2 mirrors that went like this after a 1-1 score and game 3 on the play:
Me: Tropical --> Delver
He: Wasteland on Tropical --> Surgical Extraction on Trop..
In the mirror I'm on the same plan (while both players often side out their FoW´s), but if my opponent starts of like this first I can at least come back in the game with a surgical on his Wasteland and fetching a Taiga..
2 Rough//Tumble: I had the strong feeling that the deck needs a little extra vs the rising Merfolk, while it's also nice against Maverick, Goblins and Elves.

Edit:

I still don't know if I should play Forked Bolt (better vs Thalia and Mother (or even Lackey) on the draw) or Fire//Ice (Blue (FoW), and I won games by tapping a Maze of Ith, Griselbrand or other scary blockers, where my opponent would have recovered on 3/4/5 life if didn't had that option).

[Palle Kuling]

Hello! I have been playing an variant of Gaudenis Vidugiris rug deck from GP- Atlanta at local tournaments. I really like the four spell pierces and have been quite ambivalent about the stifles in many other deck lists. I think the idea with playing some thing like thought scours to up the tempo and put more pressure is right but i think the card is a little to week to make the cut. (Since it more or less only is needed with Goose) I would like to make a case for a substitute that does close to the same thing but have other benefits and makes it less situational.
I have been playing Gitaxian probe for a while and found it amazing! it has won me several games on its own. Have any one tried it? I dont try to say it is the answer to everything in the meta. The hard match ups like maveric will need other solutions. But it makes the other cards in the deck more power full.

Goose gets another card in the grave.
Goyf gets an sorcery.
The counters know what to counter
The draw and filter knows what to draw and filter.
Quite often it lets you play more aggressively. Instead of keeping mana up for counters you can some times just play all your creatures and go for it even though the matchup tells you to save mana so you can play a pierce and also keep one up to pay for Dace.
The life loss have not been a problem so far and many times it actually feels like it builds the grave faster than Thought Scour. Gitaxian probes ability to know what you are supposed to do with your mana in turn one is really good and it give you the opportunity to play really efficient next ones to come.
Any thoughts?

[Ziveeman]

I Top 8'd SCG LA with Gitaxian Probe in my list, and I got 29th at the last SCG Indy with Gitaxian Probes as well. I think they're pretty solid, but slots are pretty tight unfortunately. It makes Brainstorms better, Wastelands better, pumps Mongoose, in fact, everything basically improves when you have perfect knowledge. However, I have found myself wanting Spell Snares in addition to Pierces and Stifles, so I've cut Probes in favor of Spell Snare. Who knows though? I may want them back. To be honest, I feel a little more vulnerable now that I can't see my opponent's hands.

[reev_]

Number of lands in start hands:
0 Land(s): 10253 times (10,25%)
1 Land(s): 28992 times (28,99%)
2 Land(s): 33441 times (33,44%)
3 Land(s): 19747 times (19,75%)
4 Land(s): 6329 times (6,33%)
5 Land(s): 1111 times (1,11%)
6 Land(s): 121 times (0,12%)
7 Land(s): 6 times (0,01%)


These numbers are considering 18 lands? Do you have same statistical analysis with 19 lands?

[I am the brainwasher]

This analysis is for the 14 coloured sources in a (standard) build with 18 lands total. The first one is for 18 lands including Wasteland. I'll edit that.
Unfortunetly, I haven't figured out how I insert an uneven number for such an calculation, so I can't do you that favour, sorry.

[Rubik's Man]

With 19 lands:
0 2.161%
1 12.104%
2 26.941%
3 30.870%
4 19.645%
5 6.933%
6 1.255%
7 0.090%

The probability of drawing L lands in a hand of size H with T total lands in the deck out of a deck of size D is:

P(T,L) * P(D - T, H - L) * C(H, L) / P(D, H)

where P(a,b) denotes permutations and C(a,b) denotes combinations.

I think this math is right and I've done a couple tests simulating shuffled decks to make sure but correct me if I did something wrong.

I made a small page a while ago to make this easy:
http://radsuara.zzl.org/lands.html

[Palle Kuling]

@Ziveeman
Con grats to your top 8! I do agree that the slots are precious! My first point is that Gitaxian Probe is better than Thought Scour. So I think if yo are considering Thought Scour you should use Probe instead because it is actually much better.

I think the case with stifle and Spell Snare is quite interesting. I would say that probe generates the same amounts of direct wins like both other two. The big difference is that Probe plays with the general plan with the deck. While Stifle and Snare are perfect control elements in the deck they actually make the deck slower through hinder you from playing your early threats. Probe also helps with the decks consistency. If you play stifle and the opponent does not have a hand with fetches then it is dead. The same with Snair if the cc of two does not hit anything vital. Probe generates the same kind of wins but cantrips and help the rest of the deck in a more synergistic way.

[bennotsi]

With 19 lands:
0 2.161%
1 12.104%
2 26.941%
3 30.870%
4 19.645%
5 6.933%
6 1.255%
7 0.090%

The probability of drawing L lands in a hand of size H with T total lands in the deck out of a deck of size D is:

P(T,L) * P(D - T, H - L) * C(H, L) / P(D, H)

where P(a,b) denotes permutations and C(a,b) denotes combinations.

I think this math is right and I've done a couple tests simulating shuffled decks to make sure but correct me if I did something wrong.

I made a small page a while ago to make this easy:
http://radsuara.zzl.org/lands.html

Hi Rubik's Man, thanks for sharing this info. I don't know about the math, that's why I wrote a simulation program last year. Interestingly enough, the results from my simulations are quite different from your calculations:

0: 5.826%
1: 22.063%
2: 33.240%
3: 25.402%
4: 10.710%
5: 2.456%
6: 0.290%
7: 0.014%

Obtained from drawing a million 7 card hand from a 60 cards deck

[wbw]

Hi Rubik's Man, thanks for sharing this info. I don't know about the math, that's why I wrote a simulation program last year. Interestingly enough, the results from my simulations are quite different from your calculations:

0: 5.826%
1: 22.063%
2: 33.240%
3: 25.402%
4: 10.710%
5: 2.456%
6: 0.290%
7: 0.014%

Obtained from drawing a million 7 card hand from a 60 cards deck

If you use the link he posted and choose 19 land count, the results will be the same as yours.

The percentages he posted are for a 24 land count. Probably, he typed the 19, but forgot to click on "Calculate".

[Dzra]

Thanks a lot for the link Rubik's Man! I love theorycrafting and this makes it quite a bit easier.

Also, just an interesting bit of calculations... I used to assume that a one-lander with a Brainstorm, but no Ponder, was generally a mull. (It depends on the hand, the deck, and the opponent, etc of course)

In an 18 land deck (14 of which are colored sources), your chances of mulling to 6 and getting either a 1 or 0 colored source hand is about ~57%. It drops to ~41% if you include Ponder as a "colored source" (this assumes you have the first colored source to cast it so you can presumably find the second real colored source).

If you kept the 1 colored source hand on the play and cast Brainstorm, your chances of missing (not finding another colored source) from the BS are ~42%. This number drops to ~30% if you include Ponder as a non-miss and 25.5% if you include Thought Scour (assuming you run 2) as a non-miss.

This still doesn't mean it's always right to keep the 1-lander with Brainstorm, but it's fairly compelling. What this doesn't calculate is that if you do miss on the Brainstorm, you are screwed for the next two turns, whereas if you mull and don't get the lands you want, you are still pretty likely to draw into them. As an aside, this is also a pretty good reason to run Thought Scour...

[reev_]

Thanks a lot for the link Rubik's Man! I love theorycrafting and this makes it quite a bit easier.

Also, just an interesting bit of calculations... I used to assume that a one-lander with a Brainstorm, but no Ponder, was generally a mull. (It depends on the hand, the deck, and the opponent, etc of course)

In an 18 land deck (14 of which are colored sources), your chances of mulling to 6 and getting either a 1 or 0 colored source hand is about ~57%. It drops to ~41% if you include Ponder as a "colored source" (this assumes you have the first colored source to cast it so you can presumably find the second real colored source).

If you kept the 1 colored source hand on the play and cast Brainstorm, your chances of missing (not finding another colored source) from the BS are ~42%. This number drops to ~30% if you include Ponder as a non-miss and 25.5% if you include Thought Scour (assuming you run 2) as a non-miss.

This still doesn't mean it's always right to keep the 1-lander with Brainstorm, but it's fairly compelling. What this doesn't calculate is that if you do miss on the Brainstorm, you are screwed for the next two turns, whereas if you mull and don't get the lands you want, you are still pretty likely to draw into them. As an aside, this is also a pretty good reason to run Thought Scour...

Yes. But we must assuming we can reach not 3 cards with bs, but 4.
In this case, the correct thing is:
- Land drop, go.
- Draw, then bs. (Reaching 4 cards).

A lot of people would make this bs on EOT, and reach, in this case, only 3 cards.

[Dzra]

Yes. But we must assuming we can reach not 3 cards with bs, but 4.
In this case, the correct thing is:
- Land drop, go.
- Draw, then bs. (Reaching 4 cards).

A lot of people would make this bs on EOT, and reach, in this case, only 3 cards.

Yeah, 4 cards is even better. I was just illustrating a worst-case scenario like play a land, go, Wasteland, in response I have to use my BS.

[Anen]

With 19 lands:
0 2.161%
1 12.104%
2 26.941%
3 30.870%
4 19.645%
5 6.933%
6 1.255%
7 0.090%

The probability of drawing L lands in a hand of size H with T total lands in the deck out of a deck of size D is:

P(T,L) * P(D - T, H - L) * C(H, L) / P(D, H)

where P(a,b) denotes permutations and C(a,b) denotes combinations.

I think this math is right and I've done a couple tests simulating shuffled decks to make sure but correct me if I did something wrong.

I made a small page a while ago to make this easy:
http://radsuara.zzl.org/lands.html

If I am missing nothing, I think your link is wrong. If you draw 10 cards from a 10 cards deck, you should have all your lands in hand. The follow is just a sample.

Land count:6
Cards in deck:10
Hand size:10

Lands Chance
0 0.001%
1 0.040%
2 0.893%
3 9.524%
4 50.000%
5 120.000%
6 100.000%
7 57.143%
8 10.714%
9 0.794%
10 0.020%

[I am the brainwasher]

Hint: MWS has an calculator that isn't just showing pure propabilities, but also the percentage's of drawing Combo-Pieces and all different sort of useful stuff. If you know how to do it, it's dang useful.

[Dzra]

If I am missing nothing, I think your link is wrong. If you draw 10 cards from a 10 cards deck, you should have all your lands in hand. The follow is just a sample.

The format of the equation isn't designed to account for H=D.

Try again with something like this:

Land count: 1
Cards in deck: 10
Hand size: 1

0 - 90.000%
1 - 10.000%

[Vandalize]

Wtf is going on? Play 18 or 19 lands, whatever you like. Stop posting stupid percentages and number and playtest a little more.

[Anen]

The format of the equation isn't designed to account for H=D.

Try again with something like this:

Land count: 1
Cards in deck: 10
Hand size: 1

0 - 90.000%
1 - 10.000%

If the equation isn't designed to support H=D, then the equation is wrong.
Moreover another sample:

Land count:6
Cards in deck:10
Hand size:9

Lands Chance
0 0.001%
1 0.036%
2 0.714%
3 6.667%
4 30.000%
5 60.000%
6 40.000%
7 8.571%
8 0.714%
9 0.020%

There is ~10% I have more lands in my hand that there are in my deck.
And there is 130% of chance my hand has 4 or 5 or 6 lands :really:

=> Don't trust this link anf follow last post's advice:


Stop posting stupid percentages and number and playtest a little more.

[xfxf]

Guys maybe you can carry the mathematical equations and probability discussions over to PM?

[Bryant Cook]

Report (http://www.jupitergamesonline.com/2012/51447/cooks-kitchen-nelc-071412-first-place)

My report from this past NELC where I played RUG.

[Tammit67]

Report (http://www.jupitergamesonline.com/2012/51447/cooks-kitchen-nelc-071412-first-place)

My report from this past NELC where I played RUG.

This is what I'm running in the foreseeable future. The sideboard is very solid, and while I dislike the no stifles (my one true love), 2 ooze main means 19 lands is necessary and that leave only two real flex slots. Thoughtscour is probably correct here.

Your boarding plan against sneak and show is strange to me. I will have to test it

[Purgatory]

Report (http://www.jupitergamesonline.com/2012/51447/cooks-kitchen-nelc-071412-first-place)

My report from this past NELC where I played RUG.

Nice report, thanks for posting! Vapor Snag is an interesting tech, I ought to try them out, though Maverick is more of a force in my local meta than Griselbrand is.

[Pherion]

This is what I'm running in the foreseeable future. The sideboard is very solid, and while I dislike the no stifles (my one true love), 2 ooze main means 19 lands is necessary and that leave only two real flex slots. Thoughtscour is probably correct here.

Your boarding plan against sneak and show is strange to me. I will have to test it

I agree, can you explain why you'd remove a threat against an unfair deck that we need to kill as quickly as possible?

[Bryant Cook]

Those aren't threats that kill quickly. The additional disruption was more valuable to me than an additional one damage per turn. The results were solid, I was 3-0 against the deck on the day.

[Tammit67]

Those aren't threats that kill quickly. The additional disruption was more valuable to me than an additional one damage per turn. The results were solid, I was 3-0 against the deck on the day.

Sneak and show's counter's all seem to cost them more cards. While I'd probably leave in a couple goose, the disruption package was solid.

Lost my win and in today with the list, losing to Merfolk (no removal) and the mirror. List was very solid, and I recommend trying it. I miss stifle though

[Pherion]

Those aren't threats that kill quickly. The additional disruption was more valuable to me than an additional one damage per turn. The results were solid, I was 3-0 against the deck on the day.

Fair enough. I'll have to try the strategy and see what happens. It just feels odd siding out one of my favorite creatures :)

I do like the vapor snag concept. It seem pretty solid against some of these decks, and it actually provides an answer to some of our harder matchup's. For instance it can bounce a KotR if we have lethal on board - usually a losing board state for us pre-board.

[Zirael]

Hi there!


This weekend i attended GP in gent with this list:

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tharmogoyf
4 Delver of secrets
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire Ice

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

SB:
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Trickbind
1 Gilded Drake
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Submerge


I've lost 3 matches and won 6 in main event.

I've lost vs. Junk, Mirror and Ichorid.

A day before main event i took 3 trials, losing last one in the final against Sneak Show.

Dreadnought package in sideboard was great all day, specially against mirror and aggro. I loved to see surprised opponents when i landed them on the battlefied. It won me matched with goblins, maverick and 2 mirrors! What do u guys think about it?

[Tammit67]

Dreadnought package in sideboard was great all day, specially against mirror and aggro. I loved to see surprised opponents when i landed them on the battlefied. It won me matched with goblins, maverick and 2 mirrors! What do u guys think about it?

It seems difficult to not get submerged into a losing position with the 12/12.

[DarkConfidant]

Report (http://www.jupitergamesonline.com/2012/51447/cooks-kitchen-nelc-071412-first-place)

My report from this past NELC where I played RUG.

Would you share your rational for the inclusion of a second Scavenging Ooze? On face, it seems redundant.

As a follow up, are there any changes you would make the deck moving forward?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Would you share your rational for the inclusion of a second Scavenging Ooze? On face, it seems redundant.

As a follow up, are there any changes you would make the deck moving forward?

Ooze is a good card? He's not playing GSZ?

[Awaclus]

It seems difficult to not get submerged into a losing position with the 12/12.
On paper, it sounds like it would be pretty easy to just fetch for Volcanics when you have Dreadnought. You don't need green mana for anything except creatures, and you don't need creatures if your Dreadnought and Stifle resolve. Sure, when you already have a Tropical on the board and then draw Dreadnought, it will be more difficult, but if you're confident in your counter backups, you can even Waste your own Trop. You can also use it to boost your Goyfs, Gooses and possible Oozes when you're not sure it's going to stay on the battlefield.

In actuality, it probably isn't very good because a lot of people must have had the idea of trying it in Tempo Thresh and I don't remember seeing it ever being successful. I don't think that today's metagame lacks the deck or the archetype which possibly might have been the reason for Stiflenought's failure to dominate tournaments in previous metagames.

[Zirael]

Dreadnought package was good for me because no1 expected it. Against RUG is mirror breaker and like Awaclus said it's easy to play around submerge. Even if i played a green creature from tropical, i sometimes use daze just to have my trop back on hand. Some people do it even if they don't play dreadnought. And sometimes opponents use up their submerges for other creatures.

Against other deck like maverick, opponents ussually side out artifact hate, and i it's easy to keep some counter backup for their swords.

I played 7 games in trials with this sideboard and 9 in main event and it worked rly well. I just regretted i didn't have anything to fight combo, and i lost against sneak show in trial final because of it.

[spartan117]

Finally home!
Man, GP Ghent was awesome, from every point of view (except for the rainy weather maybe...). I'll make a brief report of my first GP, playing (of course) the deck I've been playing for the last 4 years, my beloved canadian threshold!

On friday I took my chances with a gpt, going 5-0 and being awarded 3byes-rounds for the day to come.
(you can also find my decklist on the mothership, it's the 2nd from the gpt winner decklists)
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpgnt12/day1#1

2-0 reanimator
2-0 bant/maverick
2-1 ugwr punishing/zenith (same list played by Niklas Kronberger)
2-0 UW miracles countertop
2-0 ANT ubr

On day1 things are getting serious, 1345 players are ready to play the best legacy possible, and I'm quite nervous because of how difficult it will be to make it to day2.

T1-3 byes
T4 0-2 43lands (played by a friend of mine, couldn't just believe how unlucky I was)
T5 2-0 reanimator
T6 2-1 merfolk (being played by Andre Mueller, maybe you've heard of him)
T7 2-0 uw stoneblade
T8 2-1 canadian threshold (won game 3 otp after a mulligan on 5, with him keeping his 7)
T9 2-0 reanimator

So I ended up performing quite well in day1, going 8-1 and losing only an awful MU.
I was quite excited because things were looking good for me, maybe too much...

Day2

T10 1-2 show&tell (game3 he made 4 mana on turn 2, played a daze-proof show, protected by fow for griselbrand....)
T11 0-2 death&taxes (ended up in 12th place, probably no one was expecting that deck on day2)
T12 0-2 maverick (I tried to trick him several times but he just had everything)
T13 2-0 reanimator
T14 2-0 canadian threshold (ended up in 23rd place, in my opinion his line of play and boarding techniques against the mirror were totally wrong)
T15 1-2 against a deck I just can't believe I could lost to (you'll never know what it was :tongue: )
T16 2-1 omniscience (played by former PT champ Simon Gortzen)

3-4 on day2, for a grand total of 11-5 (minus the first 3 rounds, plus going 5-0 on friday), ending up in 75th place, just out of money unfortunately.


Man, I had so much fun I couldn't stop laughing and smiling, the best weekend ever for sure. Also, 2 of my travelmates made it to the top8 (marcotti and milillo), couldn't really ask more than this.

If you have any questions, feel free to PM me or just reply to the thread :wink:

[cauffmane]

Have a few questions about RUG Delver

1) Why run forked bolt over chain lightning?
2) Why cut the spell snares?
3) Scavenging Ooze maindeck?
4) Sideboard options for unknown metagame with RUG Delver?

[wbw]

Have a few questions about RUG Delver

1) Why run forked bolt over chain lightning?
2) Why cut the spell snares?
3) Scavenging Ooze maindeck?
4) Sideboard options for unknown metagame with RUG Delver?

1) To deal with pesky creatures and sometimes 2 for 1. It is really good versus Maverick and Elves. However, I'm not liking it as I used to, I'll probably change to chain lightning or go back to fire/ice.

2) Lack of space? Most Snare targets can be dealt with pierces and the most of the missed creatures can be burned/stifled. It is more about choice, there is usually 7~8 slots for one mana permission, then you fill it up with Stifle, Snare and Pierce as you like it.

3) Well, it is like you start with SB versus graveyard decks and it is also good against aggro. Besides, it frees 1~2 slots on the SB, so why not? (this is pure speculation, since I'm not using Ooze in the 75)

4) Besides the traditional cards (Submerge, Extraction, Crypt, Grudge, REB, etc.), Sulfuric Vortex is pretty brutal against control decks, Krosan Grip is a nice catch all, maybe some sweeper and even a bounce spell may be relevant. Then it is up to you to define how you want to shape your SB (e.g.: 4 graveyard hate, 4 aggro hate, 3 combo-hate, 2 control hate, 2 artifact/enchantment hate). Then it's mix and match.

p.s.: The SB hate ratio was just an example, I usually have more aggro hate.

[dsck]

Ooze is better than Goyf sometimes, but you dont want more than 1 as you dont have resources nor time to pump both.

[Sturtzilla]

Greetings All,

I don't mean to derail the current discussion but I have to ask for some advice and/or opinions. Recently I have been putting up pretty good stats at my Legacy Weeklys. I have managed to pilot my RUG list to two 1st and a 2nd place finish this month. I find that in my meta game the decks that I don't want to play against the most are Dredge and U/W Miracles. We usually get 20-30 people each week and of that group there are generally 2-3 Dredge players (in addition to a few [2-3] Reanimator players) and maybe 2 U/W Miracle players. Which brings me to my predicament and question... I am running the following sideboard.


1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Mind Harness
1 Life From the Loam
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Krosan Grip
4 Submerge


I also have the one of Scavenging Ooze in the main deck as grave hate. So the questions would be do you guys think that the following board to good enough to deal with all of the Dredge? My record would argue that it works some of the time, but Dredge is probably the MU that I have lost the most games to recently. Furthermore how do you guys approach the MU? I am curious if there are avenues to increase my win percentages against this deck that I haven't considered. Thanks!

[Pherion]

Greetings All,

I don't mean to derail the current discussion but I have to ask for some advice and/or opinions. Recently I have been putting up pretty good stats at my Legacy Weeklys. I have managed to pilot my RUG list to two 1st and a 2nd place finish this month. I find that in my meta game the decks that I don't want to play against the most are Dredge and U/W Miracles. We usually get 20-30 people each week and of that group there are generally 2-3 Dredge players (in addition to a few [2-3] Reanimator players) and maybe 2 U/W Miracle players. Which brings me to my predicament and question... I am running the following sideboard.


1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Mind Harness
1 Life From the Loam
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Krosan Grip
4 Submerge


I also have the one of Scavenging Ooze in the main deck as grave hate. So the questions would be do you guys think that the following board to good enough to deal with all of the Dredge? My record would argue that it works some of the time, but Dredge is probably the MU that I have lost the most games to recently. Furthermore how do you guys approach the MU? I am curious if there are avenues to increase my win percentages against this deck that I haven't considered. Thanks!

Heya! Dredge is that dreaded deck that would take over the format if every deck didn't pack 4+ grave hate... So yea - you're ok being scared of it :) There's a few tricks though:

#1 - Use the stack! There are a LOT of triggers in Dredge that you can exploit. Just to name a few: Extract Narcomeba while it's trigger is on the stack. Bolt one of your own creatures while bridge triggers are on the stack (I'll go into this in a sec). Generally it is correct to let Dredge show their hand before you react. Especualy with extractions.

#2 - Know how Bridge from Below works! A lot of people get this wrong. It's a triggered ability yes - goes on the stack when they lose a non-token creature. But there's an important caveat to this. The bridge trigger has an intervening if clause - this means there's an if half way through the ability - meaning that the trigger checks for Bridges presence in the graveyard both when it triggers, AND when it resolves. You can let the Dredge player sack a bunch of creatures to a Dread return, then counter the dread return, then with the bridge trigger still on the stack extract them, or kill one of your own creatures. This exiles the bridges before their abilities resolve, and because they aren't there at resolution the ability doesn't do anything.

#3 - Cage is better than Crypt - I know this is opinion, but crypt can be played around, and the dredge player can force you to activate it on their terms. Cage just shuts them down cold. None of their creatures can come into play, and they can't Cabal Therapy. I currently run 2 Cage/2 Crypt. The Crypts are better for different match-ups, but if you're expecting to face dredge as your primary graveyard opponent, i'd do 2 cage/2 extraction.

Ok, so in general, I find one of the most powerful plays against Dredge is extracting the first Narcomeba as soon as you see it (always with its trigger on the stack). If a Narcomeba get's kicked to to the yard by an LED, leave it there - it's not doing anything and never will. Let the dredge player think you don't have an extraction and over-extend - then nail them with the trigger on the stack.

The Narcomeba basically enables the whole deck - granted there are other ways to do it, but this guy is the best one.

Game one can be tough - you want a very fast and aggressive hand. A controlling hand won't do much once they get going - it'll just stare at all the non-spell things going on and wish it had a threat. Drop your threats early, counter a turn 1 LED or Careful study, and beat their face as fast as you can. If you have to - bolt a delver to kill off some bridges and slow them down. But in essence you are racing a combo deck with your threats.

[Dyvith]

So, I was thinking that if decks are more focused at being fair, with swarm decks and such becoming more popular, and wasteland decks becoming huge, perhaps Terravore could make a resurfacing in RUG Delver. People are adding a thirteenth creature, and I can just imagine this huge terravore coming down and dominating a field. What is KOTR gonna do vs a 'vore?

4 Delver
4 Mongoose
4 Goyf
1 Terravore

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Stifle
4 Force
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt

4 Wasteland
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Wooded Foothills

SB:

1 REB
2 Pyroblast
3 Surgical
4 Submerge
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Ancient Grudge

[Koby]

What is KOTR gonna do vs a 'vore?


Alone? Not much - maybe tutor up Bojuka Bog and still be 2/2 larger than Vore. In a deck that already runs KotR? Tutor up Scavenging Ooze and perform the same action. Either way you look at it, if they see Terravore in Game 1, then Maverick will answer it with cards that are already being brought in to answer Threshold and Goyf math. Terravore doesn't diversify Threshold's graveyard exposure.

[Water_Wizard]

1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Mind Harness
1 Life From the Loam
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Krosan Grip
4 Submerge




It seems like you are already doing well, so there may be no need to change anything. The enemy of good is better.

However, if you would like to focus on beating Dredge / UW more consistently, I think you should shave a Life from the Loam and a Submerge for a Pyroblast and possibly another piece of graveyard hate (perhaps a 2nd Ooze). Personally, I run 3 pieces of graveyard hate with a maindeck Ooze and I've been fine in the Dredge match up. I also run two Rough/Tumble which can help destroy Zombie tokens.

Do you run Stifle in your maindeck? as Pherion mentions, Dredge is a trigger-rich deck. Stifle can stop a Cephalid Coliseum, Ichorid trigger, Narcomebia trigger, or Bridge from Below trigger, to name a few.

Because I don't know your maindeck or other match-ups you plan to face, it's hard to comment completely. But, given the information you've provided, it looks like you could reallocate your sideboard to improve upon the match-ups you listed. However, do you really want to change things? If you've placed 1st, 1st, and 2nd, why mess with something that is already good? Better yet, appreciate your wins and focus on your next victory!

[Tammit67]

Alone? Not much - maybe tutor up Bojuka Bog and still be 2/2 larger than Vore. In a deck that already runs KotR? Tutor up Scavenging Ooze and perform the same action. Either way you look at it, if they see Terravore in Game 1, then Maverick will answer it with cards that are already being brought in to answer Threshold and Goyf math. Terravore doesn't diversify Threshold's graveyard exposure.

That and double green/3 mana/no flash is annoying to work with. I like my dazes/pierces.

[Sturtzilla]

@Pherion

Thanks for the time you put into your post. I am aware of all of the points you have made. I honestly think that my Dredge matches tend to also be the ones where my deck does not exactly work as well as I would like. For example, having to mulligan to 6 or 5 due to no landers or only Wasteland hands. Additionally I never seems to draw any of my pieces of hate in this match up, even when aggressively Pondering and Brainstorming. Variance hating on me, I guess, for the winning.

I would like to say that the Dredge player isn't stone dead to a Grafdigger's Cage if they know what they are doing. They will bring in Nature's Claim to take out your Cage. You should be able to counter that though. I guess I haven't been sold one way or the other yet (likely due to my inability to draw any of my hate). Thanks again tho.


@Water_Wizard

I have run Stifle in the past. Right now I have been playing a version that is very close to the GP Atlanta 1st place list. Honestly I feel about the same about Stifle and Spell Snare. There are a lot of times, where either card just gets stuck in your hand and doesn't do anything. The problem as I see it, is that with Stifle builds you really want at least 3 and probably 4 Stifles. Just having 1 or 2 is pretty poor.

My meta is also kind of weird. We have like 2 Esper Blade, 1-2 U/W Miracles, 1 ANT, 2-3 RUG, 1 Maverick, 2-3 Dredge, 2-3 Reanimator style decks (not optimized [2 are mono black]), 1 Stacks, 1 Lands (occasionally), 1-2 mono red storm, and a smattering of more casual people that just come for fun and play homebrews. The other thing is that there are a few people that change decks week to week. More specifically some have more than one deck and 2 or 3 sell their cards and rebuild something different for the next week. So it can be hard to determine what the board should be.

And thanks for the vote of confidence due to my record. My question was originally prompted because I did poorly this week losing to Lands and Dredge (ending 3-2, which was 7th out of 20-30). I had great luck against these two decks this week having to mulligan 4 of the 5 games in these two matches. I still almost managed to get game three from the Lands player. I needed to hit a Wasteland for a string of 5-10 turns to break the lock and kill him. But, alas it didn't happen. I had shut down his engine (Surgicaled both Life from the Loam and Wasteland) while countering an Exploration and a Crucible, but he naturally drew double maze of Ith to blank my Goyf and flipped Delver. So I guess sometimes you just get your Karmic Justice. Thanks for the response tho.