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lordofthepit
07-27-2012, 10:31 PM
A few months ago, there was the debate of Stifle vs. Spell Pierce in the maindeck. I held that in the metagame at the time, Stifle was better than Spell Pierce, but both were much better than Spell Snare, so that the real discussion should be whether Spell Snare was worth a maindeck inclusion. I was true to my word, running 4 Stifles and 3 Spell Pierces in my build (to which I took a 6th place finish at SCG Seattle, losing to the eventual champion).

Since then, I think the metagame has shifted even more strongly against Spell Snare, with the rise of Reanimator, Sneak Attack, and Miracles. I do notice that Stifle and Spell Pierce are pretty awkward in certain fringe matchups though. I'm contemplating cutting Stifles for Thought Scour, which is rarely an amazing card, compared to Stifle, which is capable of winning games by itself. However, it does smooth out bad draws--one of the worst feelings in this deck is being forced to fire off a Brainstorm, only to have no shuffle effect available to prevent you from drawing two blanks.

Stifle does complement Wasteland and the taxing package of the deck really well. Obviously, Thought Scour also has uses in beefing up Mongoose or Goyf, messing up Miracles (if you read them correctly) and Tutor effects, synergizing with Submerge, and providing fuel to sideboarded Lavamancers. Where do you guys fall in regards to these card choices (Stifle vs. Pierce vs. Snare vs. Scour)?

Water_Wizard
07-28-2012, 01:50 AM
Where do you guys fall in regards to these card choices (Stifle vs. Pierce vs. Snare vs. Scour)?

Stifle- Hands down, I think Stifle has the most targets. It also allows you to punish your opponents more than any of the other cards listed. I like Stifle because it allows us to protect our fragile manabase from Wasteland. The question with Stifle becomes the impact its use has vs. certain targets. Stifling a fetchland, a storm trigger, a Griselbrand activation, etc., can all save you games and be awesome. However, vs. certain decks, Stifle's impact can be less than spectacular. I run 4.

Spell Pierce - I run 4. In a Sneak and Show / Reanimator environment, we need 4 (or at least 3), plus it goes well with the mana denial package.

Spell Snare - I was running 2, but I recently replaced them with 2 Though Scour. Snare is great vs. Maverick, Esper, and UW, but it can be a completely dead card vs. Sneak and Show. Snare is a meta decision and I can see running anywhere from 4 to 0 and being correct.

Thought Scour is for growing Mongoose. Yes, there are some other 'cute' uses, but it's main point is to get Mongoose online vs. Combo decks. Vs. Combo decks, you will usually hold a number of Daze, Force of Will, and Spell Pierce/Snare in your hand until the 'critical' turn. Therefore, Mongoose has a way of staying a 1/1, thus slowing your clock and allowing your opponent to find more answers and build his or her manabase to circumvent our taxing counters. Scour is good vs. Combo decks and Control decks. Vs. Aggro/Mid-Range, I would rather run Spell Snare, as these games tend you play out differently- you usually have a constant stream of interaction (as opposed to waiting for the 'ultimate' turn vs. a Combo deck), so your Gooses tend to grow naturally.

Purgatory
07-28-2012, 08:25 AM
Currently running 3 Stifle, 3 Pierce, 2 Snare (along with 4 FoW and 4 Daze) and it has been great for me so far. I really like Stifle, and it has plenty of targets right now, even if you aim for something other than Fetches. Running only 3 allows me to fit in two miser's Snares, which admittedly are boarded out against a lot of decks, but are still plenty useful against some decks (Maverick and Blade have plenty of creatures I'd rather not see on the board at all, Ooze, Snappy and Stoneforge mostly). Pierce is probably the one of the three I like to have most in my opening grip. Playing a T2 Mongoose with U open for Pierce is so good.

Also not playing any Thought Scours at the moment, instead I'm trying out the Vapor Snags that Bryant Cook played with in his latest report posted a page or two back. They've been pretty damn good so far, and even though my friends laughed at my "Unsummons", the -1 life is relevant surprisingly often - we all know what a difference it makes being on 2, 4 or 7 life rather than 1, 3 or 6. I like how the Snags gives me a maindeck out to KotR and Griselbrand, along with random crap like Jotun Grunt and other large-ish creatures standing in the way of Mongoose and Goyf.

Einherjer
07-29-2012, 01:43 PM
I took down (4-1) todays little local tournament with the following list:

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt

1 Life from the Loam

4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island

Winning against: Maverick, Sneak Attack, UW Terminator and something else, while being unable to beat MonoB PoxReanimator (HELL THIS DECK FUCKS RUG TEMPO!!!)

I really liked how smooth the Counter-Suite felt, and I would play the same suite in any meta without too much aggro, the sideboard was the following:

3 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Sulfur Elemental
3 Submerge


Greetings

cauffmane
07-30-2012, 03:46 PM
I have been throwing around the idea to maindeck surgical extraction out of the board. I needed 2 cards to replace snare because I didn't want thought scour. I think the adding extractions gives you more graveyard interaction with different matches including Reanimator, Dredge, Snapcaster matchups. Another thing to add it may give you an advantage in the mirror game one with the surprise factor of 2 surgicals for wasteland or maybe one of their creatures. And if your playing without stifle it may be your way to prevent getting watelanded out of a game. Also, with runing 1 scavenging ooze that's three cards that give you interaction with your opponents graveyard game 1
which can put your opponent on edge when they lose game 1.

This also opens up 2 sideboard slots to help in other matchups

With moving the extrtactions my board will look like:

2-Grafdigger's Cage
4-Submerge
1-Life from the Loam
2-Rough/Tumble
1-Pithing Needle
1-Ancient Grudge
2-Red Elemental Blast
2-Sulfur Elemental

goobafish
07-30-2012, 04:10 PM
I played a Team Trios tourney yesterday. I went 7-0, only loosing a total of 2 games. I really liked my list:

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Snapcaster Mage

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Chain Lightning
1 Dismember

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Thought Scour

4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Snare

7 Fetchland
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

SB:
1 Scavanging Ooze
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Submerge
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Rough//Tumble
1 Surgical Extraction


The singletons really pulled their weight. I may even play another Surgical and Snapcaster in the board.

Koby
07-30-2012, 04:12 PM
@goobafish
What are your thoughts on a singleton Sylvan Library? In our local testing it's been very positive.

Mokaod
07-31-2012, 08:42 AM
@goobafish
What are your thoughts on a singleton Sylvan Library? In our local testing it's been very positive.

I'm taking the liberty to react to this since I'm a Canadian Thresh + Sylvan experienced tester.

I'm playing a list with the singleton Sylvan and I can tell you it has been great. I haven't found any situation yet (excluding mana screwage) in which it's a dead draw in this deck. It has great synergies with the CQ suite in the deck, is yet another setup for delver (although slow), and most of the time you have life enough to clean up the top of your deck when you need to and lack a fetch or CQ effect.

The only downside I see is that my partners in play automatically know what I'm about to play when tapping 3 mana in my turn...

In short: Great! Auto-Include! (Imo). I'm never going to cut it until I stop splashing green.

catmint
07-31-2012, 08:59 AM
Does anyone have expierience with the uprise of Merfolk and Goblins?

I feel Goblins with cavern is a much harder matchup now, since cavern + vial almost invalidates all our countermagic. I am thinking the standard "4 Submerge" might not be the best option anymore. For Merolk we still have the red-blasts, but maybe some numbe of Submerge should be replaced by...? rough-tumble/chain lightning/forked bolt/fire-ice/gut shot?

Mokaod
07-31-2012, 10:00 AM
[QUOTE=catmint;662197]Does anyone have expierience with the uprise of Merfolk and Goblins?

-Cancel this, I didn't notice you were talking about SB instead of MB-

OT: I have been told Gobs and MFolk are not really strong against thresh. In my testing (agains old goblins without cavern) they didn't really have a chance. I was faster in almost every case.

Our CC curve tops out lower than both the other decks, and against any play they have we have an answer (Countermagic, stifle, burn). If you are really scared of the vial drop, mull to a Force and timewalk the game in turn one. That's what we did against the Lackey drop, once.

And besides this all, Submerge is not a card I would bring in against goblins. 5cc? Extend to 5 lands?? With this tight and vulnerable manabase? You can also just scoop right away..

Just my 2 cents :)

xfxf
07-31-2012, 10:01 AM
If you are playing with Mental Note you might consider switching them for more burn. I'm playing with 9 md burn myself and quite happy with it. When you include the Red Blasts from the board you can get a decent number of removal for their lords.

Mokaod
07-31-2012, 10:16 AM
And besides this all, Submerge is not a card I would bring in against goblins. 5cc? Extend to 5 lands?? With this tight and vulnerable manabase? You can also just scoop right away..



Ehrm, you can cancel this too. I misread your part about submerge. You just want to replace it in the SB, not bring it in against gobs...

*goes for another cup of coffee since he apparently needs it* :really:

Mark Sun
07-31-2012, 12:55 PM
Since Mongoose is pretty awful against both decks, Grim Lavamancer might be a thing here. Rough/Tumble is probably the next best option since it's good cross-hate against Maverick as well.

lordofthepit
07-31-2012, 03:31 PM
Since Mongoose is pretty awful against both decks, Grim Lavamancer might be a thing here. Rough/Tumble is probably the next best option since it's good cross-hate against Maverick as well.

I tried Rough/Tumble. It's also great against Dredge and random decks like Enchantress. It would also have been amazing against Goblins, which I faced in two matches at SCG Seattle, but I never drew it. Rough/Tumble is way better thanLavamancer here, since they usually have plenty of ways to deal with a 1/1.

On the other hand, the Merfolk matchup is much tougher than the Goblin matchup, but Rough/Tumble is extremely mediocre while Lavamancer is an absolute bomb (provided they don't waste you off your red sources).

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
07-31-2012, 04:12 PM
Since Mongoose is pretty awful against both decks, Grim Lavamancer might be a thing here. Rough/Tumble is probably the next best option since it's good cross-hate against Maverick as well.

I'm playing:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim Lavamancer

Tammit67
07-31-2012, 04:56 PM
I haven't had too much trouble with the usual 4 bolt + 2 forked bolt. Turn 1 delver is usually game winning, but a quick goyf is nice too

goobafish
07-31-2012, 05:01 PM
@goobafish
What are your thoughts on a singleton Sylvan Library? In our local testing it's been very positive.

I don't think this deck has ever needed a card advantage engine besides brainstorm, let alone one that costs 2 mana at sorcery speed which has no immediate impact on the board. I have tested it and was very underwhelmed. I prefer playing something like Snapcaster in that slot.

Borealis
07-31-2012, 05:59 PM
On Sylvan: It's a great card, and yes we can often use it to the fullest, but I don't think that now is quite the right time for it. If I were in a control-heavy meta, I'd probably throw 1 in, but otherwise it's a tough slot to fill. Maybe I'd cut a ponder for 1 from the list I'm currently testing (close to Bryant Cook's recent Jupiter list), but again I don't feel now is the time for Sylvan. That said, if you've tested it and love it, no reason to listen to the naysayers. It is a very good card.

As for the resurgence in Tribal decks, that's something I've been battling recently as well. Surprisingly, no Merfish have shown up at my LGS yet, but it's only a matter of time. I expect with the new lord that that matchup will be quite difficult, with most games coming down to Who's on the Play and Which Player Has the Tempo.

Goblins is pretty bad for us in some cases, and it's probably problematic enough for us to try and have a couple sideboard slots available. Rough/Tumble is looking pretty decent. Bonfire of the Damned is actually slightly tempting, though I wouldn't really run it. Blue Blasts might be the best option right now, since Sneak and Show is on the rise again, and they help out against Burn and other random red decks quite nicely.

My biggest problem right now is Elves. It's a close match, but I always seem to be a turn away from killing them before they go off. In yesterday's Monday Legacy event, I had 2 Cursed Totems to side in (plus the 3 Submerges), but never saw a single SB card. Totem is a very difficult card for Elves to answer, but it doesn't deal with Merfolk or Goblins as well.

Lavamancer is certainly an option, but you need to hit them early to be effective against any tribal deck, especially merfolk. Once they hit 2 lords or a Kira it can be too late. RandomGestures might have the best list for a Tribal-infested meta, but I'd probably change that to the following personally:

4 Delver
3 Grim
3 Goy
2 S. Ooze

I'd still run 2 Thought Scour with this version to power up your GY, but not needed threshold is a big help. Unfortunately, Goose still does a lot of work in many matches, so I'm not quite on this path yet. Maybe soon. If I did build this type of list, I'd probably want at least 1 Sulfur Elemental in the SB, and possibly another couple dudes (Grim #4, maybe a Clique, etc.). Maindeck I'd have 7 burn spells or so, with less FoW. This would give us a bit more of an aggressive stance. Maybe it's worth testing it out, provided you aren't afraid of spot removal too much. Snapcaster on StP is going to be a problem without the Goose.

ImpinAintEasy
07-31-2012, 09:06 PM
I played in a small 20 man tourney last weekend, getting first and earning myself a foil scalding tarn and $20 in store credit. Here was my list.

4 delver
4 mongoose
3 goyf
1 snapcaster

4 misty
4 tarn
4 wasteland
3 tropical
3 volcanic
1 taiga

4 fow
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 daze
3 pierce
4 bolt
2 forked bolt
2 snare
2 scour

SB
3 submerge
2 crypt
2 surgical
1 ooze
3 pyroblast
2 grim lavamancer
1 ancient grudge
1 flusterstorm

Beat sneak show 2-0, beat nicfit 2-1, beat dredge 2-0, lost to maverick 0-2, beat merfolk 2-0.

Got lucky against nic fit as not having stifles hurts in this matchup. Maverick seems to be my nemesis and I'm pretty sure I'll adjust my sb for it at gencon. Merfolk was a cake walk, but I think I'd rather have rough/tumbles in that slot and as soon as I get foil ones I'll replace lavamancers. I loved the singleton snappy and don't see sylvan necessary as has been discussed. Snare were good all day and I'm glad to be running them again after abandoning them for awhile. On a side note, I'm only 6 foil cards away from finishing foiling out the deck, then I begin the fbb dual journey!!!

Rekk
08-01-2012, 03:05 AM
I played in a small 20 man tourney last weekend, getting first and earning myself a foil scalding tarn and $20 in store credit. Here was my list.

4 delver
4 mongoose
3 goyf
1 snapcaster

4 misty
4 tarn
4 wasteland
3 tropical
3 volcanic
1 taiga

4 fow
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 daze
3 pierce
4 bolt
2 forked bolt
2 snare
2 scour

SB
3 submerge
2 crypt
2 surgical
1 ooze
3 pyroblast
2 grim lavamancer
1 ancient grudge
1 flusterstorm

Beat sneak show 2-0, beat nicfit 2-1, beat dredge 2-0, lost to maverick 0-2, beat merfolk 2-0.

Got lucky against nic fit as not having stifles hurts in this matchup. Maverick seems to be my nemesis and I'm pretty sure I'll adjust my sb for it at gencon. Merfolk was a cake walk, but I think I'd rather have rough/tumbles in that slot and as soon as I get foil ones I'll replace lavamancers. I loved the singleton snappy and don't see sylvan necessary as has been discussed. Snare were good all day and I'm glad to be running them again after abandoning them for awhile. On a side note, I'm only 6 foil cards away from finishing foiling out the deck, then I begin the fbb dual journey!!!

where is the like button when you need it
+1 for foiling out your deck

the snapcaster doesn't make sense to me since alot of the strength of the deck is being able to brainstorm away your 3rd land .

another question is, do people still try that hooooooorrrrible plan of surgicaling your nonbasics (which makes the taiga relevant, i prefer to be able to cast my 11 cantrips over not losing to people who are terrible and board surgical
as for g/w i've found that switching out one bolt for a forked bolt has helped, (3 forked 3 lightning bolt)

NidStyles
08-01-2012, 03:34 AM
So has everyone can to the same conclusion I did last week that the deck really needs 19-20 lands in this Meta?

I'm running the following 19 right now:
4 Trops
3 Volc
4 Scalding
4 Wooded

I keep feeling like I want to go up one more land. looking at adding either a Volc or a Taiga. Me reasoning is that in the mirror match and against Knight decks I run into the issue of getting wastelocked out of a game. Even LftL is useless at that point. I've had opponents within Bolt range with a bolt in my hand several times now and just couldn't find the 1 land I needed to seal the deal. These aren't games that I should be losing, as I had already essentially won them by that point.

Another question, against the Tribal decks, siding in Rough/Tumble seems correct, but I want to go back to Chain Lightning. Has anyone else tried out the Chain build recently?

Borealis
08-01-2012, 11:05 AM
Nid, if your meta is really causing you a lot of mana problems, than maybe I could see adding in the taiga as land #20. Personally though, I've dropped the 19th land for a Gitaxian probe, even in the face of goblins and Merfolk. When you lose to wasteland, it's rare that another naturally drawn land or loam is going to get you back into the game in time to win. Whether its gobbos, fish, or gw, they should have enough pressure to just bury you. Those bolt situations you've had are frustrating, but I wouldn't let it get to you. It happens. 19 lands should still be plenty to keep you in the game without flooding.

I also want to go back to chain lightning, but if you feel the need for rough/ tumble and more lands in your meta, you might as well back it up with forked bolts and some fire/ice.

UnsungHero
08-01-2012, 07:00 PM
If you are having land problems I would add a Basic Island over the Taiga. It Cannot be wasted, Avoids Moon effects & Back to Basics. Island also allows for better turn 1 plays and isn't an auto mull if its your only land, Ive always been able to dig up another land through Ponders and Brainstorm. Ive ran the single Island for awhile & have been real happy with it. Never been a fan of Taiga.

All the Turn 1 cards I would want to play are Blue anyways.
(T1 Delver with daze backup with an un-wasteable land is pretty good.)
Stifle/Pierce/Snare
Brainstorm/Ponder
Daze
Delver

Most of the R/G cards that Taiga taps for I wouldn't want to play turn 1 anyways.
Bolt (Id rather Daze their t1 threat)
Mongoose

NidStyles
08-01-2012, 07:30 PM
Nid, if your meta is really causing you a lot of mana problems, than maybe I could see adding in the taiga as land #20. Personally though, I've dropped the 19th land for a Gitaxian probe, even in the face of goblins and Merfolk. When you lose to wasteland, it's rare that another naturally drawn land or loam is going to get you back into the game in time to win. Whether its gobbos, fish, or gw, they should have enough pressure to just bury you. Those bolt situations you've had are frustrating, but I wouldn't let it get to you. It happens. 19 lands should still be plenty to keep you in the game without flooding.

I also want to go back to chain lightning, but if you feel the need for rough/ tumble and more lands in your meta, you might as well back it up with forked bolts and some fire/ice.

Probe was an alternative I was considering. I've played against the deck running Probe, and he seemed to be running much smoother than I was. Our manabases were identical as well.

I'll try the Chain Lightning this week. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't the only one that thought it was a good idea with the way the Meta is going. Thinking 3 Chains and 2 Rough/Tumbles out of the board. Should make the Maverick matchup easier without having to rely on Curse Totem as well.

Tammit67
08-01-2012, 07:39 PM
I'm still a huge fan of 4 stifle +18 lands. My real concern is how to fit in stifles and 2 ooze main without sacrificing other matchups beyond my breaking point. You guys are going on about 20 lands, when I find my cantrips are finding me all I need with just 18.

A basic sounds good for Path effects, but the real way to beat wasteland is non-basics, or back to my first point, stifle. Fetching that basic when you only have one will make it very difficult for you to have access to green and red as early as possible in the face of wastes. You'll usually be cut off a color.

lordofthepit
08-01-2012, 10:52 PM
Where do you guys fall in regards to these card choices (Stifle vs. Pierce vs. Snare vs. Scour)?

I think it might be time to ditch Stifle for Thought Scour. I haven't played Magic recently, but goobafish has cut Stifles, the winner of GP Atlanta didn't run Stifles, and Kenny Castor (who finished 2nd at GP Providence) has cut Stifles for Thought Scours. That's three high-profile players who have left the Stifle bandwagon.

Tammit67
08-01-2012, 11:02 PM
I think it might be time to ditch Stifle for Thought Scour. I haven't played Magic recently, but goobafish has cut Stifles, the winner of GP Atlanta didn't run Stifles, and Kenny Castor (who finished 2nd at GP Providence) has cut Stifles for Thought Scours. That's three high-profile players who have left the Stifle bandwagon.

American lists haven't often run stifle, in no small part thanks to Drew Levin. Europe lists all have it.

Borealis
08-02-2012, 02:35 AM
I actually think its because stifle is just not great right now. Drew may be right on occasion, but that doesn't mean people blindly follow him. I don't run stifle because it's often worth less than a card, which is unacceptable, and because people weren't blindly walking into them anymore. Once people truly forget about stifle, it will get great again, but in the meantime it just doesn't do enough for the rest of us on this side of the pond.

xfxf
08-02-2012, 04:49 AM
Stifle is still good when you know how to dagger your opponents. If you are just hoping for the turn 1 fetch and see the card useless beyond that ofcourse it's going to be a dead draw. With Daze+Spell Pierce you can force people into running into Stifle. There are the miracle triggers, Engineered Explosives, Emrakul triggers and much more. When it's stranded in your hand to become FoW fodder it feels bad, but I'm not sure if I'd close the door against so many options for the times they become useless. I just need a better alternative and to me Thought Scour isn't doing "that much" for the deck.

Iron Buddha
08-02-2012, 07:37 AM
How do you want to beat Goblins without Stifle?

Vandalize
08-02-2012, 08:09 AM
How do you want to beat Goblins without Stifle?

Playing Tarmogoyfs turn 2, 3 and 4 :D

catmint
08-02-2012, 08:15 AM
Totally agree. Goblins with Cavern is very tough & Stifleling matron, ringleader is key.

Thought Scour can have a nice random utility, but as mentioned by the former posters Stifle does so much for the deck. Batterskulls living weapon, Jace's bounce, Denying Jitte counters, Narcomoeba, cephalid coliseum, Veteran Explorer, Deed, Miracle Triggers, Relic of Progenitus,...

Stifling Fetch number 3 or 4 can make a huge impact, but protection from other wastelands is also a big factor. People who suggest to run more than 18 lands could consider running stifle again...

Borealis
08-02-2012, 09:19 AM
Goblins can still beat us without ringleader and matron, and I don't see stifle changing tha match all that much. Also, I didn't say stifle is dead after turn 1, it's that it's not always worth a card. All those triggers are great, but stifling them is often only buying you one turn. Emrakul still deals 15, batterskull is still in play, and jitte is still going to get active on the next combat phase.

I understand why stifle is good. But I also understand that it can be very weak all too often. Just because it has an infinity of targets doesn't mean it's powerful. But again, Stifle IS powerful, it just depends on the meta and who is prepared for it. Right now isn't that time for me, but the first person to try it again and win another starcity will have had the element of surprise yet again.

Thought scour is a different card, and I don't consider them the same slot. Sure you could cut them and burn/ counter slot to fit 4 stifle, but you Mongeese will get worse. If you are okay with that, and want stifle again, go for it. I like 3/3s and cantrips.

Rekk
08-02-2012, 09:57 PM
I was testing preboard against merfolk today and this matchup seems horrible. it's no longer reliable to kill their lord of atlantis and block with green creatures I'm being put into racing situations against a deck with more creatures then me. this is the final thing that made me feel the need to play a rough and tumble in the board. I'm not sure but i feel that with 3 pyroblasts and 2 rough and tumble the matchup might improve.

Tammit67
08-03-2012, 01:06 AM
Sounds overboard to me. Delver backed with 2 pieces of removal should get there

catmint
08-03-2012, 02:59 AM
I ran 7 burn spells maindeck and 1 Fire-ice, 1 Rough tumble and 3 red-blast and 2 ancient grudge in the SB in my local tourny on wednesday (4:1 btw loosing to maverick in the final) and my Merfolk matchup felt good. Since I cut 2 Submerge for that additional SB burn I really missed them against Maverick.

Only 2 Submerge, 1 Sulfur Elemental and a 10 burn spells did not feel enough.

NidStyles
08-03-2012, 05:43 AM
If you are having land problems I would add a Basic Island over the Taiga. It Cannot be wasted, Avoids Moon effects & Back to Basics. Island also allows for better turn 1 plays and isn't an auto mull if its your only land, Ive always been able to dig up another land through Ponders and Brainstorm. Ive ran the single Island for awhile & have been real happy with it. Never been a fan of Taiga.

All the Turn 1 cards I would want to play are Blue anyways.
(T1 Delver with daze backup with an un-wasteable land is pretty good.)
Stifle/Pierce/Snare
Brainstorm/Ponder
Daze
Delver

Most of the R/G cards that Taiga taps for I wouldn't want to play turn 1 anyways.
Bolt (Id rather Daze their t1 threat)
Mongoose

Yeah, I have tried that. I just have to not forget that the Island is in there. Too often I will Fetch for Volc or Trop just so I can play out my hand faster, which lead to me cutting it for a Trop.

I chalk it up to not enough practice with the deck. I gotta quit switching decks so often I think.


I ran 7 burn spells maindeck and 1 Fire-ice, 1 Rough tumble and 3 red-blast and 2 ancient grudge in the SB in my local tourny on wednesday (4:1 btw loosing to maverick in the final) and my Merfolk matchup felt good. Since I cut 2 Submerge for that additional SB burn I really missed them against Maverick.

Only 2 Submerge, 1 Sulfur Elemental and a 10 burn spells did not feel enough.

This is the Matchup I'm having the most difficulty with. The Fish are fast, and I have resorted to trying to burn everything they put on the board.

I'm not running Stifle, I don't want to be dead against SnT, and Spell Pierce is infinitely better in the matchup. I would rather MD REB than run Stifle. Don't get me wrong Stifle has it's uses, but I have never liked the card unless I was pitching it to FOW.

apistat_commander
08-03-2012, 10:45 AM
I ran 7 burn spells maindeck and 1 Fire-ice, 1 Rough tumble and 3 red-blast and 2 ancient grudge in the SB in my local tourny on wednesday (4:1 btw loosing to maverick in the final) and my Merfolk matchup felt good. Since I cut 2 Submerge for that additional SB burn I really missed them against Maverick.

Only 2 Submerge, 1 Sulfur Elemental and a 10 burn spells did not feel enough.

What does your maindeck look like? I would like to see what you cut to fit in extra burn.

ImpinAintEasy
08-03-2012, 03:34 PM
where is the like button when you need it
+1 for foiling out your deck

the snapcaster doesn't make sense to me since alot of the strength of the deck is being able to brainstorm away your 3rd land .

another question is, do people still try that hooooooorrrrible plan of surgicaling your nonbasics (which makes the taiga relevant, i prefer to be able to cast my 11 cantrips over not losing to people who are terrible and board surgical
as for g/w i've found that switching out one bolt for a forked bolt has helped, (3 forked 3 lightning bolt)

I understand your point about Snapcaster, but the singleton has been pretty awesome at times. In the last tournament I went Bolt, Bolt, Snapcaster Bolt to outrace Dredge in game one on the back of a turn 1 delver. Ironically, the same thing happened in Game two, but this time with crypt and surgical to help out. There are times where you can't shuffle away that extra land and these are the times where snappy shines. I'd recommend you read this article http://manadeprived.com/2012/07/canadian-threshold-a-primer.html.

I find it to be a flex spot, where some people are running ooze maindeck. Personally, it's a meta call.

Yes people are still doing that lame Surgical on your Tropical thing, actually had this happen to me on MTGO the other day vs. a goblins player. I was slightly surprised he brought it in against me.

Either way, I originally had an island in the 19th spot and just recently switched to Taiga. Seeing Taiga in your opening hand as your only land is a huge drawback and one of the reasons I might switch back. If I were to cut snappy, I would be running 18 lands so it's really a irrelevant point then. One of the reasons I was trying Taiga was because I got tired of an opening hand where I had to make a choice between tropical or volcanic knowing one would get wasted.

I suppose both methods have their merits and so far in testing I've been happy with the Taiga.

What is everyones take on Cursed Totem? I want to run additional hate other than submerges for my maverick matchup. With this board, what would you bring in and what would you take out?

4 Submerge
2 Cursed Totem
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Pyroblast
1 Scavening Ooze
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Surgical Extraction

Do I bring in 4 Submerge, 2 Totem and 2 Tumbles, if so, what would you take out?

mike1987
08-04-2012, 11:57 AM
My metagame has a lot of UW miracles now hence i am running 4 stifles, solely to stifle their terminus, jace or entreat the angels. Besides that stifles are not really useful. Any alternatives or strategies to fight UW miracles without stifle?

Sunday Funday
08-04-2012, 12:55 PM
My metagame has a lot of UW miracles now hence i am running 4 stifles, solely to stifle their terminus, jace or entreat the angels. Besides that stifles are not really useful. Any alternatives or strategies to fight UW miracles without stifle?

Sulfuric Vortex. It's good against any control Stoneforge variants. It's normally game when it resolves as enchantment removal never comes in against us.

Purgatory
08-05-2012, 07:02 AM
I run 3 Stifle maindeck right now, and at yesterday's event it was MVP, giving me the win against both BG Loam Pox and Lands, two extremely difficult matchups. Karma turned on me, however, and made me lose against BW Blade and UW Miracle control, partly because of a couple of misplays, and partly because I was seriously manaflooded in one game each of those matches - I kept drawing my six duals, not even fetches to shuffle after Jace activations :(

Pherion
08-05-2012, 07:47 PM
I run 3 Stifle maindeck right now, and at yesterday's event it was MVP, giving me the win against both BG Loam Pox and Lands, two extremely difficult matchups. Karma turned on me, however, and made me lose against BW Blade and UW Miracle control, partly because of a couple of misplays, and partly because I was seriously manaflooded in one game each of those matches - I kept drawing my six duals, not even fetches to shuffle after Jace activations :(

Can you show us your list? I'm curious how you're running Jace.

Piceli89
08-05-2012, 07:55 PM
Can you show us your list? I'm curious how you're running Jace.

His opponent's.

lordofthepit
08-05-2012, 07:56 PM
Can you show us your list? I'm curious how you're running Jace.

Pretty sure he means after getting fatesealed by an opponent's Jace.

Purgatory
08-06-2012, 03:43 AM
Pretty sure he means after getting fatesealed by an opponent's Jace.

Yeah, this exactly. I specifically replaced two duals with two fetches (running 8 fetches, 6 duals, 4 Wastelands) to avoid drawing them, but I still did so several times in the two games I flooded. Of course, it happens in Magic, even with Canadian Thresh, but in an event so short as five rounds, for it to happen twice is a bit unlucky in my book.

HammerAndSickled
08-06-2012, 05:42 AM
At the risk of sounding like a bandwagonner... is Grim Lavamancer the real deal in this metagame? From all that I hear, Maverick is traditionally a poor matchup for Thresh (I never tested it extensively myself) but Lavamancer in today's winning list seemed to be the miracle boy. He solved every problem for the Delver player. Is it worth running the extra 3 creatures if you expect a similar deck distribution? I.e more Maverick/Thresh/Aggro than combo?

menace13
08-06-2012, 05:48 AM
Just happened today :pirate:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=48457

Turns out you're a savant.

BlackStarDeceiver
08-06-2012, 07:31 AM
When Delver got released i played a list with Lavamancers instead of Mungoose's because control was absent and the meta was infestet with tribal and Maverick. It worked amazingly well. I am not to sure if i like him a lot alongside Mungo though, as you will get to the point where you'll have to decide whether you activate Lavamancer or keep Threshold for Mungo. He seems to fit better in a list like Cyril Terroy's Tempozoo, the list with Kird Apes.

Obviously it worked, but i'd like to know what won the majority of the matches.

wbw
08-06-2012, 11:21 AM
Lavamancer are playable alongside mongoose, even if they are not synergic. That works because you usually don't want boths at the same time, it is all about choosing the one you want early and hold or brainstorm away the other. Mid to late game, you will have enough cards in the graveyard so that you can have a couple of lavamancers activations and still mantain the threshold.

Versus aggro, early lavamancers let you play the control role, so that even a very-late threshed mangoose can finish them (if a Delver already didn't). When facing control, lavamancers act more like a finisher, to deal the last ~4 damage.

However, I would play lavamancers on the forked bolt spot, since both serve the same purpose. Lately, I'm not happy with forked bolt. It is good against Maverick and Elves, and against anything else it is a bad shock.

Tammit67
08-06-2012, 11:57 AM
7 of his 12 rounds were against maverick, and Lavamancer is really good against it. It's a decent option when you want to beat tribal, which there was a ton of at DC.

Went a disappointing 5-4 after being 4-1. Beat 3 esperblades, elves and the mirror, losses to Miracles in round 4, affinity in round 6 (nut hands), the mirror in round 7, and maverick in round 9 after double mull to 5. Mirror and maverick where winnable, but I punted. Stifle absolutely shut down esperblade and was very helpful in my mirror match. Miracles packs relic of Progenitus main now though, so what once was simply owned by stifle and goose isn't cutting it. we need to find a way to regain an advantage going forward.

Sunday Funday
08-06-2012, 12:56 PM
When Delver got released i played a list with Lavamancers instead of Mungoose's because control was absent and the meta was infestet with tribal and Maverick. It worked amazingly well. I am not to sure if i like him a lot alongside Mungo though, as you will get to the point where you'll have to decide whether you activate Lavamancer or keep Threshold for Mungo. He seems to fit better in a list like Cyril Terroy's Tempozoo, the list with Kird Apes.

Obviously it worked, but i'd like to know what won the majority of the matches.

Agree, I've been running Cyril's Tempo Zoo list with great success. My creature base is:

4 kird ape
4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf
2 grim lavamancer
1 scavenging ooze

I'm thinking of cutting the ooze to the side and upping I a third lavamancer. I honestly don't think mongoose and lavamancer can coexist since you just want one and not the other most times. This creature configuration (alongside a heavy burn suite), improves a lot of RUG's difficult matchup but concedes to the Stoneforge variants since all creatures can be targeted. Therefore, I have systematically tuned my sideboard for that. I think this version of RUG fares extremely better against the ever-evolving metagame.

catmint
08-08-2012, 07:14 AM
Coming back to the discussion how to deal better with tribals and maverick, I thought about going for Grixis instead of RUG. Posting it here, because it is a question about the parameters to determine the best tempo deck in a given meta and the build I am thinking about should play more like RUG and not like Team America.

My thoughts summarised:
On the plus side:
+ Lavamancer instead of Mongoose is a house against tribal and Maverick. Provides reach on a stalled board.

+ Best way to beat maverick is in the air -> Playing Oona's Prowler. Tarmogoyf/goose are easily outclassed on the ground.

+ Discard helps the combo & control matchup.

+ Black brings better sideboard options than green (loosing ancient grudge, but winning better removal like, edicts, perish, ghastly,.. and good cards against Terminus like bitterblossom)

+ Submerge does not work against Grixis.

Disadvantages:
- Loosing Goyf/Goose and playing Lavamancer/Prowler hurts against decks with a lot of
removal. The creatures are more vulnerable and the defense is worse. After falling back in life total it is very hard to stabilize.

- Attack line looses to 1/1 flyer tokens. IMO Dread of Night is necessaryin the SB.

Matchup conclusions
Vs. RUG
I think Grixis can have a slight edge if built correctly (black discard/removal). Still draw/skill dependant like every other RUG mirror.

Vs. Miracles
Shroud is much less important and there is no lingering souls. I think discard helps vs. CB lock and bitterblossom against Terminus. Better for Grixis IMO

Vs. Stoneblade
Shroud is big, ancient grudge is big and lingering souls is bad for Grixis. Clear Advantage for RUG imo, altough discard and SB cards could possibly make it an "ok" matchup. Sulfuric Vortext as a good SB option?

Vs. Burn/UR Burn
Clearly better for RUG. Best shot for Grixis is probably some number of Tombstalker.

Vs. Deed based control.
Discard gives a slight edge to Grixis imo. Shroud is not that important because of deed and sacrifice effects.

Vs. Tribal
Lavamancer main and more flyers give the edge to Grixis.
Discard is important versus Goblins and trades favourable vs. Merfolk.

Vs. Maverick
Lavamancer main and more flyers give the edge to Grixis.

Vs. all kinds of combo.
Discard gives the edge to grixis.

Sturtzilla
08-08-2012, 09:37 AM
Greetings All!

After a week or two re-calibrating my sideboard for my changing meta, I again came out on top this week. It would seem a few of the RUG players in my meta have stopped playing or switched to other decks. That coupled with an increase in U/W Miracles and Esper Stoneblade decks necessitated a change in my sideboard. This is what I have settled on at the moment.


3 Surgical Extraction
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Mind Harness
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Echoing Truth
2 Krosan Grip
3 Submerge


I have kept a solid graveyard hate package, as it fights the reanimator and dredge match ups that have stayed consistent in my meta. I have transitioned to Krosan Grips to be able to deal with Stoneblade equipment and moreover to get back out from under resolved Counterbalance soft locks. With the decline of RUG and only a single Maverick in my meta, shaving a Submerge to make room for other cards seemed fine. I added the Echoing Truth to assist in the Dredge and Mono-Red Storm/Belcher match ups. Paying 1:u: to kill a few Zombies, Goblins, or to send a fat Grave-Troll back to hand has been legit.

Last night I played against Maverick (2-0), U/W Miracles (2-0), Affinity (2-0), and Esper Stoneblade (2-0). I drew pretty hot all night and played tight. It was all good for $25 in store credit and free entry to the next Legacy event. I think the deck is still positioned pretty well, it might need a bit of help with tribal/maverick style match ups. Even though it is rather anti-synergistic with Mongoose and Goyf, I think Grim Lavamancer might be worth trying out. He basically kills anything Maverick plays short of KotR. He is also a :r: answer to Thalia that can be cast from behind if need be. I haven't tried it out yet, but I think it has promise. Anyway thanks for reading!

apistat_commander
08-08-2012, 09:58 AM
Coming back to the discussion how to deal better with tribals and maverick, I thought about going for Grixis instead of RUG. Posting it here, because it is a question about the parameters to determine the best tempo deck in a given meta and the build I am thinking about should play more like RUG and not like Team America.

After having tried out Grixis, I can positively say that the deck is just not in the same league as RUG. Delver is your only real threat as Clique and Tombstalker (poor synergy with Lavamancer) come down a couple of turns too late to really tempo people out of the game. You end up playing more lands at which point it just makes more sense to become a dedicated board control deck and play BUG, UW Miracles, or something similar. I think that you could fit a few Lavamancers in RUG it would just necessitate tweaking the amount of Mongoose and Thought Scours. Whether or not this actually makes the deck better remains to be seen.

Edit: I have been trying 2-3 Lavamancers in the board in place of Rough//Tumble, Sulfur Elemental, etc. They are good in all of the same MUs the previously mentioned cards are good in plus they allow you to side out Mongoose when it isn't as great (Maverick, Goblins, etc.).

CranialX
08-08-2012, 06:07 PM
Agree, I've been running Cyril's Tempo Zoo list with great success. My creature base is:

4 kird ape
4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf
2 grim lavamancer
1 scavenging ooze

I'm thinking of cutting the ooze to the side and upping I a third lavamancer. I honestly don't think mongoose and lavamancer can coexist since you just want one and not the other most times. This creature configuration (alongside a heavy burn suite), improves a lot of RUG's difficult matchup but concedes to the Stoneforge variants since all creatures can be targeted. Therefore, I have systematically tuned my sideboard for that. I think this version of RUG fares extremely better against the ever-evolving metagame.

Has anyone tried 4 Vexing Devil instead of 4 Kird Ape?

I know the opponent has the option to take 4 damage, but it is still 4 damage.

Borealis
08-08-2012, 07:36 PM
That's not good enough in this deck. We want our burn to be burn, and our creatures to be creatures. We make the decisions in this deck, not the opponent.

Vexing Devil would be better in U/R Delver, but even there I'm not sure how good it will perform.

Sunday Funday
08-08-2012, 07:36 PM
Has anyone tried 4 Vexing Devil instead of 4 Kird Ape?

I know the opponent has the option to take 4 damage, but it is still 4 damage.

I haven't tried it, but I greatly prefer the consistency of a turn 1 kird ape that continually beats until it's stopped. The deck I'm running already has 4 lightning bolt, 2 chain lightnings, and 4 fire/ice. Additional burn in the form of vexing devil is not necessary as I would assume devil will just be a burn spell most of the time. However, I do believe vexing devil deserves testing in a U/R delver list since its applications are better suited in that decks gameplan.

I've tried goblin guide and phantasmal bear in lieu of kird ape and they were all worse. A 2/3 body is extremely relevant when you can attack into dark cobfidant, snapcaster Mage, silvergill adept, thalia etc.

Koby
08-08-2012, 07:44 PM
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=48457

Turns out you're a savant.

Pretty sure we ran Thresh with Grim Lavamancer when Mongoose was trash. Like when Zoo was a real metagame player. LOL What a stupid cyclical format. I want my Tinkers back.

menace13
08-08-2012, 08:47 PM
Pretty sure we ran Thresh with Grim Lavamancer when Mongoose was trash. Like when Zoo was a real metagame player. LOL What a stupid cyclical format. I want my Tinkers back.

You have even less to do than I right now....

Final Fortune
08-09-2012, 05:05 AM
If you guys are playing Kird Ape in order to support Grim Lavamancer, have you considered cutting Ponder and playing the 4c variant with Wild Nacatl?

Something like,

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chaint Lightning
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
2 Plateau

You're going to trade manabase instability for essentially a bigger one drop and Ponder vs Chain Lightning is debatable, but I found it to be extremely fast and pretty resilient overall because even if they Waste the Plateau(s) Nacatl is still at least a G for 2/2.

If you don't like either Chain Lightning or Forked Bolt, I kind of think Assault/Battery might be worth taking a look at just to up the threat count when you stall in the mid game and burn wont get there.

Sturtzilla
08-09-2012, 08:52 AM
Wild Nacatl and Kird Ape suffer from the same problems as Nimble Mongoose, that being lack of evasion and small size (in the mid to late game versus most other decks). Furthermore, these potential threats can be targeted and removed. They both suffer from land light/no fetch hands. They can also be Wastelanded off of being their maximum size. Legacy is populated with loads of forms of cheap, targeted removal and Wastelands. Making the above choices less than optimal in my opinion. I understand were you are going with this idea, but I don't think the potential to have more mediocre creatures is worth further destabilizing the mana base.

Assault/Battery seems off to me in this deck as well. In general we play 2 damage burn spells for their ability to be split allowing for two-for-ones. Forked Bolt and Fire/Ice give us more tools for match ups like Maverick, Tribal (Elves/Goblins/Pre-Lord Merfolk), and even Affinity (I was really happy to get a well timed Fire versus Affinity this past week). With all of that said, 2 damage for :r:, seems really lackluster. Would you play Shock if it wasn't attached to another card (Shock even has the advantage of being an instant? On the Battery portion, why would you pay :3::g: for a 3/3? That goes against basically everything this deck aims to do, as far as playing cheap, efficient threats. These are both Sorcery speed options, which can be a sink to you mana leaving you without mana for counter spells. Sure it has two options that in the case at hand you can select the better of the two, but neither of those options seems to great to me.

I would endorse Fire/Ice. Fire allows for the same reach as Assault, but is splittable and instant speed at the added cost of :1:. Ice is great too. Tapping creatures precombat to break ground stalemates (or to survive a turn or two), tapping lands during upkeep to keep your opponent off of a specific color, and many more uses plus cantripping is awesome. It is pretty legit.

ajfennewald
08-09-2012, 10:30 AM
I have been playing a thresh like deck with wild nacatl for a while. I don't think you can really play wasteland in the deck as spell count gets too low (cause you need more colored lands). Here is my list
4 scalding tarn
3 wooded foothills
2 misty rain forest
1 arid mesa
2 tropical island
2 volcanic island
1 taiga
1 savannah
1 tundra
1 plateau
1 badlands
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 FOW
3 daze
4 bolt
1 fire//ice
1 chain lighting
4 tribal flames
2 green sun’s zenith
1 grim lavamancer
1 nimble mongoose
3 goyf
1 ooze
4 delver
4 nacalt
Sb
3 crypt
3 vortex
1 grip
1 pridemage
1 teeg
3 path
1 grim lavamancer
1 karakas
1 ooze

The deck beats face alot harder in the early game/ has more reach. In trade it is less disruptive. This tends to make it better agasint tribal decks and slighly worse agsint stoneblade, maverick and U/W miricles. Wasteland is not as big a problem as you would think with 19 colored lands.

Borealis
08-09-2012, 01:42 PM
Speaking of lands, I think you forgot to include a few of them in that list. Needs some duals to cast spells with. Also, 5 color zoo is pretty greedy in legacy, and I think if you are running tribal flames you are better off just being straight Sligh. 5 color decks are ALWAYS going to be vulnerable to Wasteland.

I can see Kird ape as a decently viable option in RUG, but if I wanted to replace Mongoose I would probably use a combination of lavamancers and snapcasters. Once you warp the mana for wild Nacatl, you might as well go all in on zoo.

ajfennewald
08-09-2012, 04:48 PM
Speaking of lands, I think you forgot to include a few of them in that list. Needs some duals to cast spells with. Also, 5 color zoo is pretty greedy in legacy, and I think if you are running tribal flames you are better off just being straight Sligh. 5 color decks are ALWAYS going to be vulnerable to Wasteland.

I can see Kird ape as a decently viable option in RUG, but if I wanted to replace Mongoose I would probably use a combination of lavamancers and snapcasters. Once you warp the mana for wild Nacatl, you might as well go all in on zoo.

I revised the above post to add my duals. Well you do get counters cantrips and delver by going into blue which I think makes blue zoo at least better than zoo in the current meta. I have certianly had success with it but that may be a familiarity with the deck thing.

And as you said the deck is somewhat vernable to wasteland. In spite of that I have had very positive results vs 4 stifle thresh. The deck only nneds two lands to function so losing one is not usualy a huge deal. Tribal flames has the added benfit of kiling goyfs and knights sometimes.

dunk
08-09-2012, 09:32 PM
Pretty sure we ran Thresh with Grim Lavamancer when Mongoose was trash. Like when Zoo was a real metagame player. LOL What a stupid cyclical format. I want my Tinkers back.

Zoo. And Aluren. And FUCKING D'n'T!

I just want my missteps back. They probably wouldn't even be good right now, with all those caverns floating around.

reev_
08-10-2012, 08:43 AM
Zoo. And Aluren. And FUCKING D'n'T!

I just want my missteps back. They probably wouldn't even be good right now, with all those caverns floating around.

My meta is like 4 delver and 4 bolt for each player.

Rekk
08-13-2012, 12:52 AM
So punishing fires in rug, is it better then grim lavamancer?
positives, it's not killable and plays better with mongoose,
weirdly enough makes the mana better
is an instant for delver.
you run loam main.
cons
only works with groves
it cost 2
it takes away forked bolt
it cost you the slot of a wasteland (makes the mana better)
you only run 2

Tammit67
08-13-2012, 01:45 AM
More cons: Weaker in a lot of matchups where Mancer is insane- Elves, Maverick, merfolk/goblins to an extent
Hates Thalia hardcore
Interacts poorly with daze (Read: not at all)
Requires more setup than lavamancer or forked bolt to kill multiple things.
Doesn't help resolving one before counterbalance hits play

Plus: Choke less hurtful
Planeswalkers less hurtful
Longer grindy games are more favored.

I think if you want to run it, you really need a ton more lands. Something more akin to Next Level Threshold had, but you really lose out on your ability to constantly produce U when you need it

Purgatory
08-13-2012, 05:51 AM
This placed well in a Swedish tournament in April this year (more casual than competitive environment, but meh):

CREATURES (12)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

SORCERIES (2)
2 Ponder

INSTANTS (19)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
3 Spell Snare

PLANESWALKERS (2)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

LANDS (25)
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills

It's a lot more like NLT than Canadian Thresh, for obvious reasons, but if you want to incorporate Punishing Fire into a RUG shell, this might be the way to go.

Borealis
08-13-2012, 08:35 AM
Hmmm that's a lot of lands. Definitely a different way to build rug, but it's not the route I would go just because tribal is on the rise. Based on that list, your combo matchup is going to be a bit worse, and the deck is much slower. I'm not sure slowing down is necessary or ideal right now. A couple Grim lavamancers and rough/rumbles should still do the trick.

Thanks for the reference list though, Purgatory!

catmint
08-13-2012, 08:51 AM
Lets do some practice...

What's the correct play? Give reasons and maybe some relevant scenarios where you would decide different.

Situation 1: G2 vs. TES after winning G1.
T1: Villain Duress away our FoW
T2: We red-blast villains Ponder (with a red-blast we just drew)
our T2: Volcanic in Play
In hand: Spell Pierce, Spell Pierce, Daze, Tropical Island, Tarmogoyf
what do you do?

Situation 2: G2 vs. Esperblade after winning G1.

Opponent has 5 lands in play, 1 card in Hand and is on 11 life.
Your turn: you have 3 lands, a flipped delver, a spell pierce and a Ponder.
you play the ponder and see: Tropical, Sulfur Elemental, Wasteland.
Question 1: what do you do and why?

Situation 3 (assume you keep the 3, wasted a land and attacked him down to 8).
In his turn he plays land, lingering souls + flashback and passes with 1 card in hand.
you draw Sulfur Elmental, 3 lands on board, Spell Pierc Hand. what's the play?

jparula
08-13-2012, 09:11 AM
Lets do some practice...

What's the correct play? Give reasons and maybe some relevant scenarios where you would decide different.

Situation 1: G2 vs. TES after winning G1.
T1: Villain Duress away our FoW
T2: We red-blast villains Ponder (with a red-blast we just drew)
our T2: Volcanic in Play
In hand: Spell Pierce, Spell Pierce, Daze, Tropical Island, Tarmogoyf
what do you do?

Situation 2: G2 vs. Esperblade after winning G1.

Opponent has 5 lands in play, 1 card in Hand and is on 11 life.
Your turn: you have 3 lands, a flipped delver, a spell pierce and a Ponder.
you play the ponder and see: Tropical, Sulfur Elemental, Wasteland.
Question 1: what do you do and why?

Situation 3 (assume you keep the 3, wasted a land and attacked him down to 8).
In his turn he plays land, lingering souls + flashback and passes with 1 card in hand.
you draw Sulfur Elmental, 3 lands on board, Spell Pierc Hand. what's the play?

Situation 1: Play Goyf. If you don't play goyf this turn you're never going to play goyf, plus he didn't go off last turn after you tapped out for the REB (and he knows your hand) so it's likely he won't go off next turn either.

Situation 2: You shuffle, you need more action and 3 lands is already more than enough for you.

Situation 3: How does he still have 1 card in hand? he had 1 last turn and he played a land + lingering souls so he has 0 cards in hand i suppose. You play sulfur pre-combat and attack him down to 5 (lethal next turn) with 0 cards in hand.

catmint
08-13-2012, 09:23 AM
Situation 3: How does he still have 1 card in hand? he had 1 last turn and he played a land + lingering souls so he has 0 cards in hand i suppose. You play sulfur pre-combat and attack him down to 5 (lethal next turn) with 0 cards in hand.

True he had initially 2 cards in Hand. Sorry. I'll wait if there are more comments before I tell you my reasoning and what happened.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
08-13-2012, 11:06 AM
I placed 10th at SCG Kansas City yesterday. Ended up 6-2. Lost to UW Stoneforge with three Wasteland and Geist, then lost my win-and-in against eventual tournament winner playing UWR Miracles.

Brief summary:
R1: Mono Black Pox, 2-0
R2: GW Maverick, 2-0
R3: RUG Delver, 2-1
R4: UW Stoneforge, 0-2
R5: UB Merfolk, 2-1
R6: Dredge, 2-0
R7: UWR Miracles, 0-2
R8: RW Goblins, 2-1

Report coming soon.

ImpinAintEasy
08-13-2012, 03:29 PM
I placed 10th at SCG Kansas City yesterday. Ended up 6-2. Lost to UW Stoneforge with three Wasteland and Geist, then lost my win-and-in against eventual tournament winner playing UWR Miracles.

Brief summary:
R1: Mono Black Pox, 2-0
R2: GW Maverick, 2-0
R3: RUG Delver, 2-1
R4: UW Stoneforge, 0-2
R5: UB Merfolk, 2-1
R6: Dredge, 2-0
R7: UWR Miracles, 0-2
R8: RW Goblins, 2-1

Report coming soon.

Congrads Kirby, can't wait for the report. You going to Gencon?

ImpinAintEasy
08-13-2012, 03:39 PM
Lets do some practice...

What's the correct play? Give reasons and maybe some relevant scenarios where you would decide different.

Situation 1: G2 vs. TES after winning G1.
T1: Villain Duress away our FoW
T2: We red-blast villains Ponder (with a red-blast we just drew)
our T2: Volcanic in Play
In hand: Spell Pierce, Spell Pierce, Daze, Tropical Island, Tarmogoyf
what do you do?

Situation 2: G2 vs. Esperblade after winning G1.

Opponent has 5 lands in play, 1 card in Hand and is on 11 life.
Your turn: you have 3 lands, a flipped delver, a spell pierce and a Ponder.
you play the ponder and see: Tropical, Sulfur Elemental, Wasteland.
Question 1: what do you do and why?

Situation 3 (assume you keep the 3, wasted a land and attacked him down to 8).
In his turn he plays land, lingering souls + flashback and passes with 1 card in hand.
you draw Sulfur Elmental, 3 lands on board, Spell Pierc Hand. what's the play?

#1 - Play the Goyf
#2 - Not all esperblade lists are running souls, some are maindecking, some are not, some are sideboarding them in, some aren't running them all together, this kind of information might change my mind. If you opponent has jace, rips a land and you didn't wasteland, then you can't pierce, but he had enough lands to play around daze so more than likely his card in hand isn't jace. He is most likely holding a counter or possibly terminus if he is playing those. I say you ship the hand away, 2 lands off a ponder is horrible when you really just need to ride your delver to victory or at least till you get him into burn range.
#3 Not sure where the trickery is here, I'm pretty sure he is holding a counter, which means he only has 1 mana open and that won't cut it against your eot elemental to clear his board.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
08-13-2012, 04:01 PM
Congrads Kirby, can't wait for the report. You going to Gencon?

Negatory. Paying off my new-new car is top priority. Still dealing with the younger than 25 insurance bracket.

SCG St. Louis is probably the next stop.

catmint
08-13-2012, 05:19 PM
#1 - Play the Goyf
That one is easy. Reasons already given.



#2 - Not all esperblade lists are running souls, some are maindecking, some are not, some are sideboarding them in, some aren't running them all together, this kind of information might change my mind. If you opponent has jace, rips a land and you didn't wasteland, then you can't pierce, but he had enough lands to play around daze so more than likely his card in hand isn't jace. He is most likely holding a counter or possibly terminus if he is playing those. I say you ship the hand away, 2 lands off a ponder is horrible when you really just need to ride your delver to victory or at least till you get him into burn range.
I knew his deck and I know he is running Lingering Souls. My reasoning to keep it:
- Wasteland makes spell pierce live for batterskull & Jace,
- If he topdecks a sword I have another 3 tougness body
- I have the best answer to a lingering souls.



#3 Not sure where the trickery is here, I'm pretty sure he is holding a counter, which means he only has 1 mana open and that won't cut it against your eot elemental to clear his board.
I was so glad that I anticipated the lingering souls that I played the sulfur main-phase and pushed 3 more damage throuh. Problem was I was not thinking about Batterskull anymore, which he was free to resolve after I was out tapped and he managed to stabalize. I think the tight play would have been to play around Batteskull and leave the 3 dmg.

I like to think about a lot of these "little" situations in games, because besides of making less obvious play mistakes like forgetting stuff or not considering the obvious it is these little interactions/decisions that determine a very good player from a mediocre one. I would enjoy more of these type of questions in for example reports...

NidStyles
08-13-2012, 08:57 PM
The first Situation is easy, play Goyf. You can't win unless you have a threat, and the more time you give them the greater chance they have of winning through all of your hate. If you pass and they just kill you, it was likely going to happen even if you didn't play Goyf. It's also pretty threatening to simply tap out to play Goyf, it can signal to some people that you have Dazes or FOW. To me it usually means Daze. That means they will likely be playing around Daze and playing slower.


I knew his deck and I know he is running Lingering Souls. My reasoning to keep it:
- Wasteland makes spell pierce live for batterskull & Jace,
- If he topdecks a sword I have another 3 tougness body
- I have the best answer to a lingering souls.


I think you were correct on the keep, it's not a matter of finding more action, a flipped Delver is enough to finish the job. It's a matter of holding onto the Tempo of the game. He's on 5 lands and can easily drop a Batterskull or Jace with Pierce open. You have an answer to Jace, Batterskull, and Lingering Souls, so there is nothing you have to be scared against him, unless he lands a Jace you have the game under control. I would keep with the order being from top to bottom as this: Wasteland->Sulfur->Trop. He's at 11 and keeping him off Batterskull and Jace will prevent him from stabilizing. The worst thing he could do in that situation is drop Jace and bounce your flipped Delver.

You have a greater chance of shuffling and signaling to him that the path is clear to cast Lingering Souls and then giving him time to dig for Jace.

For Sit 3, I agree with Imprint.

Borealis
08-14-2012, 10:16 AM
I agree with that as well Nid. Nice little test catmint!

Congrats as well, RandomGestures. How did you feel about your deck configuration, specificalky the sideboard? Looking forward to the report. Also, Good luck with the new whip too! (Camaro? Toyota? Wrx? 911 Turbo?)

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
08-14-2012, 02:18 PM
I agree with that as well Nid. Nice little test catmint!

Congrats as well, RandomGestures. How did you feel about your deck configuration, specificalky the sideboard? Looking forward to the report. Also, Good luck with the new whip too! (Camaro? Toyota? Wrx? 911 Turbo?)

Report. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24468-10th-at-SCG-Kansas-City-with-RUG-Delver&p=665404#post665404)

And it's a 2013 Hyundai Elantra.

Borealis
08-15-2012, 09:37 AM
^^Sweet. Probably more reliable than the Porsche anyway. ;)

Sturtzilla
08-15-2012, 03:02 PM
Greetings!

Weekly Legacy was last night for me. I went 3-1-1. Losing to mono-white Soul Sisters/Life Gain, drawing with U/W Miracles, and beating High Tide, Mono-Red Storm, and U/W Miracles. Overall the that record placed me at the bottom of the prize pool. So I was able to sneak away in the black fiscally.

As for the match I lost... I think it was a fluke and just real bad variance. I won the die roll but managed to mulligan to 3 without hitting any land. Yes, my 7, 6, 5, and 4 card hands all had no lands... not even Wastelands. So here is a question... do you guys think it is wrong to go down that far? Or would you be ballsy and keep a no lander at some point before 3? The three were Delver, Trop, and Ponder. So about as good as it gets at 3 cards. Anyway he had the nuts in game three and got to 38 by turn two with Serra Ascendant in play.... pretty much terrible.

The match I drew, I think I would have been able to push through and take it, if I would have had a few more combats. He was durdling without a Top and I had dudes so it seemed favorable.

Next question: What do you guys find the best sideboard cards for U/W Miracles and Stoneblade? It seems a good portion of my meta has changed to these two decks. I wouldn't say that I am having trouble with either match up... just looking to see what you guys are rocking to help win these more.

Mark Sun
08-15-2012, 03:06 PM
Next question: What do you guys find the best sideboard cards for U/W Miracles and Stoneblade? It seems a good portion of my meta has changed to these two decks. I wouldn't say that I am having trouble with either match up... just looking to see what you guys are rocking to help win these more.

Envelop is a house against Miracles, just not sure how many you want to run. I've been contemplating putting a Grip back in there for Counterbalance.

ImpinAintEasy
08-15-2012, 05:22 PM
Envelop is a house against Miracles, just not sure how many you want to run. I've been contemplating putting a Grip back in there for Counterbalance.

I've actually been thinking about grip as well, but right now I put a singleton Engineered Explosives in that slot. I'm gonna take this list to Gencon and tweak it as needed during the events. I really feel like EE would be better against the field as a whole, kills souls tokens, zombie tokens, can get around counterbalance with sunburst technique. It hits many random things as well. Anyways here is the mostly foiled out list I'm sleeving up when I leave in the morning.

Lands (19)
4 Misty
4 Tarn
4 Waste
3 Tropical
3 volcanic
1 Taiga

Creatures (14)
4 Delver
4 Goose
3 Goyf
2 Grims
1 Snappy

Spells (27)
4 Force
4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Bolt
3 Pierce
2 Forked
2 Scour

SB
4 Submerge
2 Pyroblast
1 REB
2 Surgical
2 Crypt
1 Grudge
1 EE
2 Rough/Tumble

I still not sold on the 2 grim maindeck, but I'm anticipating many maverick decks, so I'll probably stick with them. I've loved the singleton Snappy, so I don't see him changing. I'm seriously considering cutting both crypts and adding a 3rd surgical. Reanimator seems to be gone for the most part, so it's possible to run just 3 gy hate cards and try to avoid the dredge matchup. If I do this, I'd have another flex spot for a 2nd grudge or if I feel I need it, something like Ooze. Gibbons seems pretty awesome, but since I haven't tested it, I doubt I'll throw them in at the last minute.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
08-15-2012, 06:31 PM
Hidden Gibbons acts as a one-sided Standstill in the mirror.

Really wish I had Envelop against Miracles at SCG KC.

Sturtzilla
08-16-2012, 09:02 AM
Envelop is a house against Miracles, just not sure how many you want to run. I've been contemplating putting a Grip back in there for Counterbalance.

So I think my board has been the following for the past few weeks:

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Mind Harness
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Echoing Truth
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Krosan Grip
3 Submerge


I think I am the only one playing RUG in my meta now and I think the Maverick player is moving. So I think I can cut the Mind Harness and Submerges (I feel bad doing this, but I haven't had to board them in for a few weeks). That would open up 4 slots for Envelops or other options... Envelop is pretty sick! Thanks!

I guess I might move to something like this:

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Envelop
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Krosan Grip
2 Flex Slots

wcm8
08-16-2012, 09:25 AM
UW Miracles seems like it's going to grind you out with their infinite removal or lock you out with Counterbalance. I think Sulfuric Vortex might be the best option to bring in from the sideboard to help finish off the opponent after you get in a few swings with your creatures. Krosan Grip is still good but you ultimately want to kill the opponent, not just break their soft-lock. If they have gotten to the point where they can get an army of angels, you've likely already lost.

Sturtzilla
08-16-2012, 11:21 AM
I was considering adding 1 or 2 Vortexes to my board in the above flex slots. It would seems like it can be decent in this match up, but it is also solid versus Batterskulls and the one silly life gain deck in my meta.

I might bring Sulfur Elementals back into the board too. He kills nearly everything in that deck (Life Gain) with the exception of a large Serra Ascendant, but if that dude is big you are probably dead anyway, unless you are swinging back with a massive army.

that0neguy
08-20-2012, 03:07 AM
Hi, I have been playing RUG Tempo for a while now, and more recently started following this thread.

I have been trying to compile a list of all the cards that would potentially be useful main/side after the core list of:

18 Land
4 Delver
4 Goyf
4 Mongoose
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2-3 Thought Scour
4 Lightning Bolt
15-17 Flex Spots

This is what I have come up with so far:
Force of Will
Daze
Stifle
Spell Pierce
Spell Snare
Flusterstorm
Envelop
Annul
Steel Sabotage
Divert
Lightning Bolt
Chain Lightning
Forked Bolt
Fire//Ice
Grim Lavamancer
Dismember
Rough/Tumble
Engineered explosives
Submerge
Mind Harness
Sulfur Elemental
Red Elemental Blast
Blue elemental Blast
Pyroblast
Hydroblast
Scavenging ooze
Tormod's Crypt
Surgical Extraction
Grafdiggers Cage
Ravenous Trap
Faerie Macabre
Cursed Totem
Null Rod
Hurkyl's Recall
Ancient Grudge
Artifact Mutation
Krosan Grip
Oxidize
Nature's Claim
Pithing Needle
Llawan, cephalid Empress
Sulferous Vortex
Sylvan Library
Temporal Spring
Life from the Loam

Can you guys think of anything else I am missing from my compiled list? anything that can probably come off the list as being too unlikely to ever be used? (Annul and Oxidize I am thinking will never make a list, not so sure about Nature's Claim either) There is some pretty fringe stuff on that list, but my meta can be pretty odd sometimes (Lands making up a large percentage of the Meta, GWB choke decks, ect)

Also, for the mirror I was kinda wondering about possibly using Ancestral Vision. The extra burst of cards seems so potent if you can get it to go off. Although, I am thinking that I would want it as a 1/2 of at most, and if drawn late will not help you to come back from a losing position, but could be useful in breaking a stalemate.

catmint
08-20-2012, 04:45 AM
My 2 cents to the discussion:

Not running Stifle is not an option at the moment.
Mirror, miracle cards, the uprise of Goblins (Cavern & Krenko from 2013) and EE in Esper/UW make it a must have for RUG.

I don't think we have the luxury of running Thought Scour:
It is a nice card giving value, but describing it as the "core" and stifle not is just wrong imo. We need all the counterspells (pierce, dazes, FoW) vs. combo and to protect our animals (or gameplan) and I would not go for less than 7 burn spells maindeck given there are problematic creature matchups.

SB that beats "everything"
Unfortunately you have to beat a bunch of decks in a large tournament and it is therefore not possible to run too many narrow answers. I don't think cards like envelop have a wide enough application. The only narrow SB cards we should run are cards that are essential to win popular matchups. GY hate, Submerges/Mind Harness are very good examples for that, since we have to interact with the graveyard and with Ooze/KOR to win tournaments.

Sulfuric Vortex
I also thought about it vs. Miracles & Esper but never tried it. In my SB it could replace ancient grudge, which I think might be the better choice. Does anyone have experience with it. Is it any good versus Maverick?

Don't plan to get out of the CB lock.
If you play Krosan Grip or EE in order to win against counterbalance you are doing it wrong. You have to play tight and we have more than enough answers to counter a counterbalance: pierces, red-blast, FoW,[Daze]. Krosan Grip is narrow and EE is a slow card and much better in control decks where you have more mana and do not want to run a bunch of 0,1,2 casting costs creatures out yourself.

So the list that I will be testing is:

I am trying to run less clunky creatures and more permission & burn.

Creatures:
4 Mongoose
4 Delver
3 Goyf

Permission
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Fow
4 Pierce

Filter
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

Burn
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
1 Fire Ice

with a 18 land - 8 fetchland mana base.

SB + comments

In general my thoughts are:
Fix slots:
4 GY hate
3 Redblasts
5 slots for problematic creature matchups. Distribution depending on meta.

3 flex slots.

So what I am testing at the moment:
//4 GY hate. Surgicals have wider application
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Grafdigger's Cage

3 Red/pyroblasts //wide application: all blue, almost all combo, dredge, affinity

3 Submerge //narrow, but good vs. 2 very popular matchups Mirror & Maverick

2 Rough Tumble //just good enough vs. merfolk & maverick and supreme vs. Goblins & Elves

1 Sulfur Elemental // very narrow but good vs. 2 popular matchups Esper, Maverick

2 Sulfuric Vortex // ...to be tested vs. control

Mark Sun
08-20-2012, 11:39 AM
Agree with the above post. I took a similar approach this past weekend at Gen Con and if not for an unfortunate turn of events, would have made Top 8 on Saturday.

List: Same one that catmint posted, except -1 Spell Pierce, +1 Sylvan Library. Scary how close it was, actually. Also debated on cutting another Spell Pierce for a Cephalid Coliseum, but didn't want to last minute.

SB:

4 Submerge
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Envelop
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Rough/Tumble

Only change in the list was that for the Prelim on Friday I ran -1 Flusterstorm, +1 Red Elemental Blast. After that event, Flusterstorm was insane for me so I made the small switch.


Top 4 Prelim:
2-0 Sneak Attack
2-1 Omniscience Combo
2-0 Esper Blade
2-1 Goblins
2-1 Elves
ID
ID
Top 8: 2-0 Goblins (different player)
Top 4: 0-2 Dredge

Expected results, because I chose to forego GY hate to gain an edge against tribal (Rough/Tumble) and have something better to fight combo with the extra Flusterstorms.


Legacy Champs:
2-0 MUC
2-0 Hypergenesis
2-1 Affinity
2-1 Esper Blade
2-1 Sneak Show (eventual tournament winner)
1-2 Lands (Bobby who made Top 8, same playgroup)
2-0 Omniscience Combo
2-0 Mirror

Then... At this point I'm 7-1 in the tournament, 4th place with 71% breakers going into the last round and I thought I could draw in, but based on how the pairings are (which I'm unfamiliar with, not topdown), I get paired against another 7-1 in my bracket who has 60% breaks, so I'm forced to play it out. It's the guy who was playing the Bant Maverick deck, so after seeing one red spell the entire match, I unfortunately pack it in.

0-2 Bant Maverick

Ended up in 10th place, wondering what happened. Not really tournament report worthy, but overall I still thought the list was a good choice for the event (and the weekend itself) and is pretty solid going forward, especially with combo making somewhat of a comeback here.

Tammit67
08-20-2012, 11:45 AM
I saw you on that final round standings after a friend of mine got 9th. That's rough. Congrats on getting close though! The list look very solid

HammerAndSickled
08-20-2012, 12:18 PM
Is the general consensus that it's a good idea or just plain dumb to side Extractions v. the mirror? Last night I was testing RUG on Cockatrice since it's the most competitive deck I can build with my group's current card pool, and I had a sideboard that was:
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Submerge
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Life From The Loam

My main deck was pretty standard, 19 land, 12 creatures, stifle, daze, and FoW at 4, 2 Thought Scour 2 Fire/Ice. I didn't expect the mirror on Cockatrice, since it's usually aggro/Maverick variants, Reanimator, or Miracles. I realized I didn't really have any idea how to side for the mirror. So I cut the counters for the Surgicals, Loam, and Red Blast (left in a FoW) and completely blew him out games 2 and 3. By turn 4 game 3 his board was Wasteland, and I had a Mongoose, Trop, Volcanic, and both of his duals were extracted. He even ran a Taiga, and when it came out I wasted it again. Was this just a fluke, due to not having any experience in the mirror? It seemed between Stifle/Waste/Surgical he was not at all prepared for my land denial.

that0neguy
08-20-2012, 01:34 PM
I think 4 Surgicals is too many. For graveyard hate I run:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdiggers Cage

Against the really heavy graveyard decks like Dredge, Surgicals can do some work, but they aren't enough on their own, but I like surgicals in the mirror to take out all of their red or green mana. Surgical is also usually pretty solid against reanimate/Loam decks, but I have found that against a lot of graveyard decks you need the volume of something like Crypt.

In the mirror though, unless you get lucky and hit something in their hand it is card disadvantage (although, if you can strand all their green creatures in their hand for the game, that creates a huge number of dead draws.)

Tammit67
08-20-2012, 01:42 PM
I personally don't run surgical post board for the mirror. In my experience, the better players are able to keep fetchlands in play if they suspect it and/or leave up spell pierce to stop it. Its is a card that doesn't affect what has already resolved, nor does it protect your goyfs from submerge as pierce and REB do.

Of course it can work, just seems gimmicky to me.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
08-20-2012, 02:43 PM
I personally don't run surgical post board for the mirror. In my experience, the better players are able to keep fetchlands in play if they suspect it and/or leave up spell pierce to stop it. Its is a card that doesn't affect what has already resolved, nor does it protect your goyfs from submerge as pierce and REB do.

Of course it can work, just seems gimmicky to me.

When I played the mirror at SCG KC, my opponent used Surgical on Brainstorm, Lightning Bolt and Submerge.

Target opponent loses 6 life.

I won that game and the match.

catmint
08-20-2012, 05:22 PM
RUG players trying to waste-surgical in the mirror is probably because some people who got tired loosing with monoblack buying a tier deck and are still convinced it is a good tech. :rolleyes:

Yes, works once in a while and you "blow the opponent out", but it often does not work, because lands are in play or people play around it... or it simply does not matter because what's on board kills you. A counter, a removal, a threat or a filter spell provide straight up value and not some narrow nonsense.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
08-21-2012, 12:09 AM
Let's talk about Cephalid Coliseum.

catmint
08-21-2012, 02:18 AM
Don't think its good and it can't replace a land (in my 18 land manabase). Why would be better than something else in a spell slot. if you want late game value you can run something like Sylvan Library or snapcaster mage (which I am not a fan of).

Purgatory
08-21-2012, 05:46 AM
RUG players trying to waste-surgical in the mirror is probably because some people who got tired loosing with monoblack buying a tier deck and are still convinced it is a good tech. :rolleyes:

Yes, works once in a while and you "blow the opponent out", but it often does not work, because lands are in play or people play around it... or it simply does not matter because what's on board kills you. A counter, a removal, a threat or a filter spell provide straight up value and not some narrow nonsense.

In all my years of playing RUG and decks similar like it in both Vintage and Legacy, I've lost to the "Extraction/Extirpate your lands hurr"-plan once, and I know a lot about losing with these decks. In this case, my opponent chump blocked a threshed Mongoose and then Extirpated my Tropicals post-combat, taking me down to 6 cards in the graveyard, which killed the Mongoose. This was before Delver, so I had no way of casting any more threats - and didn't draw my 4 Bolts and a Fire // Ice :rolleyes:

Mark Sun
08-21-2012, 01:17 PM
Let's talk about Cephalid Coliseum.

Actually a fan of this card, and I think it has potential, and I debated on replacing a Spell Pierce with it this past weekend. Just helps with card quality, is all.

lambert101
08-21-2012, 06:27 PM
I have been having some good test results with:

4 Mongoose
4 Delver
3 Goyf
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Fow
4 Pierce
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Forked Bolt
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Sclading Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest

3 Submerge
2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Hidden Gibbons
3 Pyroblast
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Ancient Grudge

Boarding Plans:

VS Maverick
On Draw:
-4 Daze

+ 1 Ancient Grudge
+ 3 Submerge

On Play:
-4 Stifle

+ 1 Ancient Grudge
+ 3 Submerge

VS RUG
-4 Force of Will
-3 Forked Bolt
-2 Daze

+3 Submerge
+3 Hidden Gibbons
+3 Pyroblast

Vs. Control:
-3 Forked Bolt
-4 Daze
-1 Spell Pierce

+2 Sulfuric Vortex
+3 Hidden Gibbons
+3 Pyroblast


Took last couple pages of information are brought it together. I really like the Hidden Gibbons tech from RaNDoMxGeSTuReS.

lordofthepit
08-21-2012, 10:42 PM
For those of you who play Life from the Loam, how have you liked it? I've run it in the sideboard as well as in the mainboard, and even in the matches where I think it would be good, I end up spending too much time durdling with it. Definitely a bit disappointed.

Sturtzilla
08-22-2012, 12:40 PM
Actually a fan of this card (Cephalid Coliseum), and I think it has potential, and I debated on replacing a Spell Pierce with it this past weekend. Just helps with card quality, is all.

I think that it could be a good card in our mid to late game. It would serve to filter some unnecessary lands or dead soft counters. I think that is it worth a shot. I would rather topdeck it than another land or daze, say after turn three or four.


For those of you who play Life from the Loam, how have you liked it? I've run it in the sideboard as well as in the mainboard, and even in the matches where I think it would be good, I end up spending too much time durdling with it. Definitely a bit disappointed.

I played with Life from the Loam in my board for quite a long time. I never really found it all that useful. In games where you are getting Wastelanded, you might be able to cast it, but it has been my experience that is very rarely the case. Additionally Waste-locking your opponent is difficult unless you are playing the mirror. In this case you need a LftL, a Wasteland, and two more land one of which is green. That is a pretty specific set of four cards and it could still end in you losing the game to an early resolved threat.

I only ever ran it as a one of. I would hardly ever draw it and never really needed it when I did end up with it in hand. I have since taken it out of my board. I think Stifling opposing Wastelands is generally a better play as it fits more into our Instant speed suite of spells and essentially answers the same issue. I never really liked tapping (or even tapping out) for a LftL, I just always felt as if I was leaving my self open to be blown out.

Sturtzilla
08-22-2012, 12:47 PM
Additionally, I figured that I should mention that I managed to win locals this week. I went 4-0-1. My record was the following: Goblins (2-1), Aggro Loam (2-1), BRG Storm (2-1), U/W Miracles (1-1-1), and Stoneblade/Miracles Hybrid (2-1). Ended 1st overall, which was good for my next tourney free and $35 in store credit. I think that the sideboard I was working with could still use a bit of work, but that is almost always how I feel. I had changed my maindeck a bit and had worked a playset of Stifles in... I was pleased with them. Stifling Wastelands, Miracle triggers, and Storm triggers just makes me smile.

ImpinAintEasy
08-22-2012, 04:55 PM
Agree with the above post. I took a similar approach this past weekend at Gen Con and if not for an unfortunate turn of events, would have made Top 8 on Saturday.

List: Same one that catmint posted, except -1 Spell Pierce, +1 Sylvan Library. Scary how close it was, actually. Also debated on cutting another Spell Pierce for a Cephalid Coliseum, but didn't want to last minute.

SB:

4 Submerge
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Envelop
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Rough/Tumble

Only change in the list was that for the Prelim on Friday I ran -1 Flusterstorm, +1 Red Elemental Blast. After that event, Flusterstorm was insane for me so I made the small switch.


Top 4 Prelim:
2-0 Sneak Attack
2-1 Omniscience Combo
2-0 Esper Blade
2-1 Goblins
2-1 Elves
ID
ID
Top 8: 2-0 Goblins (different player)
Top 4: 0-2 Dredge

Expected results, because I chose to forego GY hate to gain an edge against tribal (Rough/Tumble) and have something better to fight combo with the extra Flusterstorms.


Legacy Champs:
2-0 MUC
2-0 Hypergenesis
2-1 Affinity
2-1 Esper Blade
2-1 Sneak Show (eventual tournament winner)
1-2 Lands (Bobby who made Top 8, same playgroup)
2-0 Omniscience Combo
2-0 Mirror

Then... At this point I'm 7-1 in the tournament, 4th place with 71% breakers going into the last round and I thought I could draw in, but based on how the pairings are (which I'm unfamiliar with, not topdown), I get paired against another 7-1 in my bracket who has 60% breaks, so I'm forced to play it out. It's the guy who was playing the Bant Maverick deck, so after seeing one red spell the entire match, I unfortunately pack it in.

0-2 Bant Maverick

Ended up in 10th place, wondering what happened. Not really tournament report worthy, but overall I still thought the list was a good choice for the event (and the weekend itself) and is pretty solid going forward, especially with combo making somewhat of a comeback here.

First of all, grats on the 10th place finish.
Second of all, was nice meeting you!
Third of all, wish I would of took your advice on the stifles md and no gy in board. I ended up playing 1 stifle md, which ironically saved me at round 3.

My weekend wasn't the greatest unfortunately. Got 13th in the friday prelim, same one u got 3rd in. Saturday tournament was terrible.
Beat UW Counter Miracles Round 1 2-1 after dropping game 1
Beat UW Counter Miracles again (Chris Renner) after dropping game 1
Was feeilng pretty good with my game play coming back in both games
Lost round 3 to Caleb D. with Nic Fit, got him down to 8 life with double goose on board and him topdecking. Next turn he rips green sun, ooze took over from there. Really wish I had 4 stifles, took them out 5 mins before tourney.
Lost round 4 to Mono Red Stax - had 3 turns to find a bolt with 3 cantrips and shuffle effect, no luck, welder got there and game 2 I had to mull to 4 for land.

Oh well got some serious trading done, turned a bunch of crap into 3 jaces which was cool.

Twas cool meeting ya though!

Onto Coliseum - can't replace a land with it if you are running 18, in a 19 land build I could easily see it being the 19th land. I'll test it out on modo and get back to ya!

Koby
08-22-2012, 05:53 PM
@Impin
I am disappoint you cut Stifle. *tsktsk*

@Mark Sun/catmint
Glad to see the deck you guys are piloting is returning back to Stifle roots. Stifle is mighty strong in the metagame, even more with all the extra triggers AEther Vial is providing.

NidStyles
08-23-2012, 03:00 AM
I think that it could be a good card in our mid to late game. It would serve to filter some unnecessary lands or dead soft counters. I think that is it worth a shot. I would rather topdeck it than another land or daze, say after turn three or four.



I played with Life from the Loam in my board for quite a long time. I never really found it all that useful. In games where you are getting Wastelanded, you might be able to cast it, but it has been my experience that is very rarely the case. Additionally Waste-locking your opponent is difficult unless you are playing the mirror. In this case you need a LftL, a Wasteland, and two more land one of which is green. That is a pretty specific set of four cards and it could still end in you losing the game to an early resolved threat.

I only ever ran it as a one of. I would hardly ever draw it and never really needed it when I did end up with it in hand. I have since taken it out of my board. I think Stifling opposing Wastelands is generally a better play as it fits more into our Instant speed suite of spells and essentially answers the same issue. I never really liked tapping (or even tapping out) for a LftL, I just always felt as if I was leaving my self open to be blown out.


It's been my experience in the past two weeks that LftL really is only good with Thought Scour builds. I think it works better in that build than the Gitaxian Probe or traditional Spell Snare builds. I run it MD as the Mirror is a very likely matchup for me here, and it's along with 3 Thought Scour.

I was running 3 Gitaxian Probes and a single Spell Snare until about two weeks ago when the mirror started to reappear. I've had to go up to 19 lands again to reliably support it as well. I had been running 19 before until I saw that there were no other Thresh decks in my area until this other guy got his Goyfs like two weeks ago. 18 lands with LftL just always seems shaky at best.

I'm now running for land:
4 Trops
3 Volcs
8 Blue fetches
4 Wastelands

Has everyone else dropping the whole Ooze plan as well? I never find the time or mana to be able to use the guy, and at best he eat's a bolt that would have otherwise gone to my face. I still like the GSZ tech though.

catmint
08-23-2012, 03:44 AM
In all my years of playing RUG and decks similar like it in both Vintage and Legacy, I've lost to the "Extraction/Extirpate your lands hurr"-plan once, and I know a lot about losing with these decks. In this case, my opponent chump blocked a threshed Mongoose and then Extirpated my Tropicals post-combat, taking me down to 6 cards in the graveyard, which killed the Mongoose. This was before Delver, so I had no way of casting any more threats - and didn't draw my 4 Bolts and a Fire // Ice :rolleyes:

Good to hear someone else made similar experiences. Gerry Thompson in his recent Article "Preparing for Legacy MOCS" writes "Also, using Wasteland + Surgical Extraction in the mirror is a viable strategy if you think you are outclassed. " ... At this point I will quit my premium membership which I only have for legacy articles. Not that many articles published anyway and besides stupid "combo/card hyping" I don't like the "group think syndrom" which has as a result that there is no real debate, but somone comes to a conclusion and then everyone does it and thinks its the nuts. Since people are netdecking SCG lists it brought up the following non-sense:

- 4 snapcaster mage instead of 4 Nimble Mongoose (popular for a while, just horrible)

- Cutting Stifle for 3 Thought Scour and +1 Land (pupolar now,...commented already)

- 1 random Ooze (of course good at narrow times but most of the times mediocre or bad and does not fit the general tempo game plan)

Only articles I really find good and enjoy on SCG are Carstens and those are for free anyway. :)


As for Life from the Loam. Also a typical card for control decks seeking inevitability. Only situation where it is good is if we can wastelock an opponent in the mirror on an empty board. However he can still keep fetchlands and play a threat, so just wastelands will never be enough. That situation is very uncommon, so I would not cut anything from my post-board 60 for a loam in the mirror. Only other situation where loam would be super good is vs. 12 Post: Wastelock and dredge ancient grudge to the yard to kill their pesky artifacts (some play pithing needle for wasteland)...

xfxf
08-23-2012, 05:46 AM
catmint, I just wanted to drop in to say I agree with you 100%.

wcm8
08-23-2012, 09:36 AM
I ran a few test runs over the last two days with the Stifle configuration and didn't lose a single match except once to Dredge (which is expected, cutting GY hate after all).

The way I see it, GY hate might just not be worth the cost of eating into your SB slots when there are other popular matchups that require more attention. So you pretty much auto-lose to Dredge, but other 'graveyard-y' decks like Reanimator are still manageable with all of the counter-magic. Even then, Dredge might not be an auto-scoop if you get somewhat lucky with early Delvers, countermagic, and Stifles on their relevant triggers. You can also kill a Delver to exile their Bridges.

Regarding the 19th land: I'm not a fan of Cephalid Coliseum. I see how it can provide mid/late-game value, but you never want it to be your sole blue source and the life-loss can be relevant. I think either the 4th Volcanic or Tropical Island is a better choice. Against decks NOT playing Wasteland, you can SB out the 19th land to draw into more business spells.

catmint
08-23-2012, 10:28 AM
I had a similar thought. I even win a G1 against dredge from time to time. However I would go down to 3 surgical extraction like i saw others playing instead of 0 Gy hate spots, since surgical can be used in many other matchups to a certain extent.

Concerning SB things I am testing atm:

- Sulfuric Vortex. So far provided some kills against control
I feel somehow naked without ancient grudge. Also I do not to board a lot versus goblins where all the countermagic is just so bad, so I am still undecided.

- Creature hate:
I was playing with 1 single Sulfur Elemental to respect lingering souls. Sulruf is of course narrow, so I am thinking about running 1 Hurly-Burly, Rain of Embers, Simoon or Yamabushi's Storm instead. It does not do much against Merfolk/Goblins (still more than the Elemental), but has a similar effect against Maverick & Lingering souls while providing random utility against elves, enchantress, bitterblossom, narcomoeba, Elspeth, zombie.dec

Purgatory
08-23-2012, 02:24 PM
It's been my experience in the past two weeks that LftL really is only good with Thought Scour builds. I think it works better in that build than the Gitaxian Probe or traditional Spell Snare builds. I run it MD as the Mirror is a very likely matchup for me here, and it's along with 3 Thought Scour.

I was running 3 Gitaxian Probes and a single Spell Snare until about two weeks ago when the mirror started to reappear. I've had to go up to 19 lands again to reliably support it as well. I had been running 19 before until I saw that there were no other Thresh decks in my area until this other guy got his Goyfs like two weeks ago. 18 lands with LftL just always seems shaky at best.

I'm now running for land:
4 Trops
3 Volcs
8 Blue fetches
4 Wastelands

Has everyone else dropping the whole Ooze plan as well? I never find the time or mana to be able to use the guy, and at best he eat's a bolt that would have otherwise gone to my face. I still like the GSZ tech though.

In your manabase, I'd rather go 4 Volcs, 3 Trops, provided you play with the standard 8 Green Dudes, 6 Burn spells build. Even though you have technically more green cards than red, I find myself always fetching Volcanics first if you play Delver, simply because with a threat on the board, having red mana for Bolt is a lot more appealing than having green mana for more dudes. Also, in games two and three you often need red mana to cast hate, like Blasts or Ancient Grudge.

NidStyles
08-23-2012, 04:29 PM
In your manabase, I'd rather go 4 Volcs, 3 Trops, provided you play with the standard 8 Green Dudes, 6 Burn spells build. Even though you have technically more green cards than red, I find myself always fetching Volcanics first if you play Delver, simply because with a threat on the board, having red mana for Bolt is a lot more appealing than having green mana for more dudes. Also, in games two and three you often need red mana to cast hate, like Blasts or Ancient Grudge.

I see what you're saying. The problem I have had is that now everyone is actively hating on the Trops, so I have been playing around it by keeping a Trop in my hand during most games. I cut Fire/Ice to a 1 of and honestly most of the time I never want to use it. My meta is literally like 8 Griselbrand decks of both variety one Maverick deck and 2 Thresh decks other than mine. So the Green mana is used more than Red. Red really only offers bolt and REB for me. For the Griselbrand decks I have 3x Gilded Drakes out of the board.

On the GY hate, I have seen the same thing, most of the time I am usually just dead to Dredge, and that does not really both me. I can't justify trying to push this deck to have a positive matchup against Dredge by killing the matchups against everything else. In the BUG control matchup LftL is an all-star IMO. I still haven't figured out the Miracle matchup without just siding EE which just slows the deck down, and a lot of the time you can race them outright.

BKclassic
08-24-2012, 12:49 PM
This is were I am for MODO right now:

18 lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain

3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire/Ice

SB
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Rough/Tumble
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Submerge
2 Envelop
1 Grafdigger's Cage

-The MODO metagame is lousy with aggro right now, hence the 3 Rough/Tumble in the SB. I like Rough way more than other options, Grim Lavamancer is too slow and makes us vulnerable to Wasteland, Sulfur Elemental is too expensive and narrow, Cursed Totem is okay, but some players run answers to it and Rough has broader applications (Dredge, Belcher).

-Holding up mana, hoping for my opponent to run into Stifle is just not were I really want to be with this deck, I want to be aggressive as possible. As such, I am running Preordain right now. I think it is simply better than Thought Scour, which is great with Mongoose, but that's pretty much it besides Sumberge in the SB. Preordain helps boost Tarmogoyf and set up Delver of Secrets as well. Also replacing Stifle is Spell Snare, which I am finding no shortage of targets for right now and has been really good for me.

-Envelop has been great for me. Tons of people play Elves online and it is pretty helpful there, countering Green Sun's Zenith and Glimpse of Nature. Its obviously great against problem cards like Perish, Terminus, Reanimate, and Show and Tell. Envelop definitely helps compensate for the lack of Stifle in the MD. The second Envelop might be better off as Gilded Drake, but I am just not seeing a lot of Sneak and Show or Reanimator right now.

-1 Grafdigger's Cage is all the graveyard hate I can afford to run right now, and is probably too much since no one plays Dredge on MODO.

-I am not really all that happy with Fire/Ice, but I figure it is the card that can win me the most games. I think I may try Vapor Snag or a single Dismember and something else.

catmint
08-24-2012, 07:34 PM
-Holding up mana, hoping for my opponent to run into Stifle is just not were I really want to be with this deck, I want to be aggressive as possible. As such, I am running Preordain right now. I think it is simply better than Thought Scour, which is great with Mongoose, but that's pretty much it besides Sumberge in the SB. Preordain helps boost Tarmogoyf and set up Delver of Secrets as well. Also replacing Stifle is Spell Snare, which I am finding no shortage of targets for right now and has been really good for me.


Maybe that is an explanation why there are so many non stifle builds around. Because people are not able to play their creatures aggressively if they hold a stifle which an opponent could walk into. That is just bad thinking. You play your threats and THEN have mana open to counter, burn, stifle,... to win with your threats. It is that easy... playing stifle does not mean: "i have to manascrew my opponent totally" or "i have to stifle his first land". Depending on the deck you have tons of good stifle targets and it is also very powerful to stifle land number 2,3 or 4+ while attacking.

xfxf
08-24-2012, 08:06 PM
Turn 1 Stifle decisions are not really hard imo. If I'm holding a Delver I cast it, if I'm holding a Mongoose I hold mana up for Stifle. If I don't have a creature in hand (but kept the hand because I have cantrips) then I naturally hold mana up for Stifle. It is also a very flexible card and can dagger your opponents in many ways he wouldn't foresee. Attacking your unthresholded Mongoose into Mother of Runes with Stifle in hand is a valid play as well as countering Miracle triggers, Griselbrand activations (7 damage lightning bolt) and many more.

Purgatory
08-24-2012, 08:14 PM
Turn 1 Stifle decisions are not really hard imo. If I'm holding a Delver I cast it, if I'm holding a Mongoose I hold mana up for Stifle. If I don't have a creature in hand (but kept the hand because I have cantrips) then I naturally hold mana up for Stifle. It is also a very flexible card and can dagger your opponents in many ways he wouldn't foresee. Attacking your unthresholded Mongoose into Mother of Runes with Stifle in hand is a valid play as well as countering Miracle triggers, Griselbrand activations (7 damage lightning bolt) and many more.

+1. Turn 1, I always cast a Delver if I have it against and unknown opponent if I'm on the play. If I have Mongoose I wait for turn two, playing Mongoose with U up for Stifle, or Spell Pierce is so great. :)

Mark Sun
08-24-2012, 08:16 PM
I'm more likely to prioritize t1 Stifle if I have some support based on my hand (ie., Wasteland or Daze to compliment the mana denial plan).

wcm8
08-26-2012, 10:24 AM
Took the Mark Sun Stifle build to a split 1st/2nd place finish yesterday in a 21-man local, winning an Underground Sea in the process.

My matches
2-0 vs. Merfolk
2-1 vs. Mono R Goblins
1-2 vs. RUG (no Stifle, with Grim Lavamancer, Ooze and Thought Scour)
1-2 vs. Nic Fit
2-0 vs. Mono Black Control

Somehow my tiebreakers were good enough to squeak into the top 8 as the only one with 9 points. Because I'm 8th seed, all of my game ones are on the draw, which is generally a huge disadvantage... but people seem to have forgotten how to play against Stifle.

Top 8 (2 RUG, Alluren, High Tide, Omni-Tell, Maverick, Nic Fit, Esper Blade):
2-0 vs. High Tide
2-0 vs. Nic Fit (I was sideboarding wrong in the the Swiss, with proper SBing this match is more manageable)
Split with RUG player from Swiss (it was so late, and the prize for 1st and 2nd was essentially the same)

Some thoughts:
-I think the 4th Tarmogoyf might be necessary. You really want him in the mirror and against tribal decks. Alternatively, Scavenging Ooze might be worth it in this slot.
-Cutting GY hate from the SB was an amazing decision. I think trying to hedge your bets against too many archetypes and therefore dilute your strength overall is a poor decision. Decide on 3-4 major archetypes you want to beat, and base your SB around that. For my local metagame, Dredge and other gy-intenstive decks have hardly no presence, and tend to get hated out in the Swiss by other decks.
-Running Stifle, the 19th land can probably be cut for another business spell.
-The only SB card that didn't pull its weight for me was Sulfur Elemental. However, had my pairings been different he would have been key in several matchups.
-The 3rd REB/Pyroblast can possibly be something else, perhaps something geared towards the mirror. I was thinking Life from the Loam.

Mark Sun
08-26-2012, 12:17 PM
Good job! 2-0 against Nic Fit to avenge your Swiss loss is pretty awesome.

I, too, have debated on adding the fourth Tarmogoyf in. I used to play it in the 3rd Spell Pierce slot but going up to five cards at 1G was too much, in my opinion. Sylvan Library is a house right now. Plus, we are already at 18 lands so the less 2cc spells, the better. I hated the 3rd Red Blast last weekend, and I actually did cut it for a second Flusterstorm. I did think it was risky not having Life from the Loam, as much as I dislike that card I think you do need to have a copy to avoid getting blown out in the mirror.

wcm8
08-27-2012, 08:45 AM
Let's talk about this card:

Izzet Charm
UR
Instant
Choose one - Spell Pierce; draw two, then discard two; or Shock a creature

Pros:
-Extremely versatile. It can function as a counterspell, filter/draw, AND removal. This pushes its utility near the range of Fire//Ice.
-It's never exactly 'dead' in any matchup.
-Another blue spell to pitch to FoW.
-Can function somewhat like a Thought Scour post-Ponder. I think this will push Thought Scour out of vogue.

Cons:
-Costing two can be relevant in a deck with 18~ lands.
-Requiring blue AND red means it can occasionally get stranded in hand when you get bottle-necked on mana.
-The damage can't be split, meaning cards like Forked Bolt and Fire//Ice are still king in creature matchups.

I expect this card to see some play, but just how much remains to be seen.

Purgatory
08-27-2012, 08:49 AM
Played the 3 Goyf, 4 Stifle, 2 Forked Bolt variant in a small local this weekend, ended up 4th overall, won the swiss. I won against NO Bant, Team America and Esper Blade in the swiss and lost to BW Blade, lost to the mirror in the semis (game one he had the classic "three Delvers, inf wastelands" hand, game two I mulled to five), then lost the match for third place against the same BW Blade deck. The deck is built to crush Canadian Thresh, it has all the cards I hate to see, Inquisition, Hymn, Jotun Grunt, Lingering Souls, Bob, Mom etc. etc.

Tried Hidden Gibbons for a laugh, and actually won a game against TA on the back of a monkey (so awesome!). I think Dismember and Sulfur Elemental is better in my local metagame, however.

Sturtzilla
08-27-2012, 10:09 AM
Izzet Charm
UR
Instant
Choose one - Spell Pierce; Careful Study; or Shock a creature.

Sorry I had to tweak what I was quoting from you. When I saw this spoiled last night I was pretty excited. I think this card has a lot of potential. It does many of the things this deck wants all in one nice, neat little package. Granted you have to pay :u::r:, in place of just a normal :u: or :r: for the individual spell, but in my mind the situational flexibility that it gives is worth it.

I wouldn't mind having additional Spell Pierces in my deck and the fact that it also can allow more creature removal and a new way (not sold on if it is better, although I am inclined to think that it is) to charge up Nimble Mongoose and Tarmogoyf is just sick. On second thought, I think the instant speed Careful Study effect is better than Thought Scour. You get to draw the cards and then choose what to discard. So in essence, although it is card disadvantage (-1 card), you get to select the best cards at the given moment, all while getting more selection of the cards to graveyard, which in itself is sometimes an advantage with Goose and Goyf (i.e. gaining Threshold or a new card types).

So yes I will be messing around with this card. At very least I think it is almost always going to be strictly better than Thought Scour. The exceptions being when you are constricted on mana or the win-more scenario of Thought Scouring your opponent for whatever reason (Counterbalance, kept Ponder, gambit for fueling Surgical Extraction, etc.).

xfxf
08-27-2012, 10:54 AM
I have been running the following disruption suite for the past few months:

4 Stifle
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
3 Force of Will

4 Lightning bolt
3 Forked Bolt
2 Chain Lightning

I had the 2 extra chain lightnings as both creature removal and as a straight to the face burn to speed the race (which is what this deck is all about). But I will probably try the 2 Izzet Charms in the place of Chain Lightnings. In a deck full of narrow answers a flexible card like this in the flex slots could be a perfect match. However I feel like I'm going to use the Instant speed Careful Study ability most and not sure how mana restrained I will be for a 2 mana Shock or a 2 mana Spell Pierce.

Sunday Funday
08-27-2012, 12:48 PM
Let's talk about this card:

Izzet Charm
UR
Instant
Choose one - Spell Pierce; draw two, then discard two; or Shock a creature

Pros:
-Extremely versatile. It can function as a counterspell, filter/draw, AND removal. This pushes its utility near the range of Fire//Ice.
-It's never exactly 'dead' in any matchup.
-Another blue spell to pitch to FoW.
-Can function somewhat like a Thought Scour post-Ponder. I think this will push Thought Scour out of vogue.

Cons:
-Costing two can be relevant in a deck with 18~ lands.
-Requiring blue AND red means it can occasionally get stranded in hand when you get bottle-necked on mana.
-The damage can't be split, meaning cards like Forked Bolt and Fire//Ice are still king in creature matchups.

I expect this card to see some play, but just how much remains to be seen.

Very excited about this card. You outlined the pros and cons very well. Another con I might add is that it doesn't deal damage to players. I've won a number of games using forked bolt and fire/ice for lethal. The versatility of this card is quite remarkable, but the lack of reach really hurts. RUG is weak against big creatures like Knight and fire/ice can tap those critters at critical moments, cantrip, and potentially do something game-ending that turn. RUG has the most counters in a tier 1 deck and having additional spell pierce effects that cost UR to play doesn't quite accomplish much I think. Obviously, this card needs testing and only time will tell how good it's applications are.

yeaaaah
08-27-2012, 08:55 PM
This past Saturday I played thresh to a 2nd place finish at [Philadelphia Legacy Series] Season 1 Championship @ Top Deck Games , losing in the finals. I walked away with a playset of Tundras and Badlands. Tourney link here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24395-Philadelphia-Legacy-Series-Season-1-Championship-Top-Deck-Games-on-Aug-25th!). This tourney, like the Vintage tourneys that Nick Coss runs At TDGs was amazing and I strongly encourage everyone to try to come to the next vintage tourney Sept 15th.

There were 79 people and seven rounds of swiss leading to a top 8.

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Grim Lavamancer

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Thought Scour

4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Sclading Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest

SB:
3 Submerge
2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Jitte


The jitte was bad, the ooze never did anything and goyf was always awesome.

Lavamancer kicks so much spirit token and merfolk butt. At worse it keeps your goyfs safe from getting plowed. I expected alot of maverick, stoneblade and murfolk so therefore the lavamancer/thought scour package over the stifles. I want to put atleast one more thought scour in the deck to really power up the gooses and mancers.

Here is a brief report, sorry if I get something wrong, it was alot of magic.
R1
2-0 Stoneblade, Evan
I dont remember much about this match, I have myself ending both games at 19 and 18 life, respectively.

R2
1-2 UWb Miracles, Blake
Good player that I see later on in the day. He wins the first game, I run him over the second and the third game he stabalizes at 9 life when he plays a BANESLAYER ANGEL and proceeds to go all the way.

R3
2-0 Murfolk, Josh (opponent gets g1 loss for deck reg error)
He gets a game one loss for not writing a sb card down. He draws poorly g2 and we play a third game for fun; it was closer, but I still got him. :cool:

R4
2-0 Stoneblade, Tim
He tutors up batterskull both games, with all of the bolts, lavamancers and ancient grudges I still got there.

R5
2-1 Murfolk, Eric
Opponent was a very nice guy. I get land screwed g1 and promptly die to a bunch of blue dudes. Games 2 and 3 are both very tight and grindy. At one point I have to wasteland my only other land to be able to block his islandwalking team and pull out the game. G2 I ended at 1 life, game 3 I ended at 3 life. Very good games.

R6
2-0 BW Stax!?! Robert
Another very nice opponent, he had lent my buddy some cards for the tourney too. Ancient grudge, Spell Pierce and daze are just so good. He never got into the games. Game 1 he mulled to 5 and I had double delver.

R7
2-0 Mirror, Blake's friend, sorry I forgot your name.
I am in 8th place with 15 points, if I draw then the guy in 9th place with 13 points (Mike playing Stoneblade)and better breakers can push me out of the top 8. Therefore I am forced to be that guy and dreamcrush my opponent out of the top 8.

I dont remember much out of the ordinary these games, I know I brought in the scavenging ooze as an extra beater, altho he was never more than a grizzly bear.

7-1 Rounds
13-3 games

Top 8

So after round seven's win, I have the most points and am therefore ranked #1 in standings, putting me on the play for every match. Sweet.

Quarter Finals
2-1 Stoneblade, Mike
Amazing game 1, he swords his own guy to land at 1 after an attack and then proceeds to come back and win the game. Jace out and a Batterskull equipped with a jitte is hard to beat haha.
Game two he hits me with discard and I hide ancient grudge and sulfuric vortex with a brainstorm. I win game 2 with the vortex and beats without showing him my ancient grudges.
Game three he gets to see the grudge when batterskull comes out to play. He does not draw paticularly well this game and shows me some lands when I counter his ponder on his last turn.

Semifinals
2-0 UWb Miracles, Blake
Rematch! I ended game one at 17 life and game two at 20 life after my guys get plowed. Game one I beat him to death with a tiny mongoose after he removes graveyards with relic of progenitus. I think he also had counter top lock and I ended up getting around it with double bolt trying to make the mongoose bigger.

Game two he taps out to entreat the angles for two to stay alive and I have the spell pierce. He played divining top almost every game and I was constantly afraid of having my guys being terminus-ed away. It was tricky to tell when to apply more pressure and when to hold guys back.

Finals
1-2 Goblins, Mike
Ahh the finals! Game one I keep a terrible hand, it was something like tropical island, double ponder, spell pierce, not a land, not a land, not a land. I wiff on the ponder like a chump and get wastelanded out of the game on turn one. I really really wished I mulligan-ed that hand.

So take a look at my side board and tell me what you would want to put in against goblins. Spell pierce seems TERRIBLE due to not a single spell besides vial being in a goblin deck. I take out two pierces for an ooze and a Jitte.
Game two I get to counter his guys. he runs two guys out to get countered and I just beat him to death with big green guys.

Game three I mull to 5. He proceeds to beat me to death with a piledriver and other mean red guys. I have the jitte in hand for several turns but am too far behind to get it active. Congrats Mike!


9-2 rounds
18-6 games

cauffmane
08-28-2012, 10:40 PM
I have been seeing Gilded Drake in sideboards what matches would you bring him in?

lalauwba
08-28-2012, 11:23 PM
Anyone could help me with a god sideboard plan agaisnt maverick, UW miracle, mirror and combo!?!?

What to take out and what to put in on the play and on teh draw!?!?

Ty so much!

JUNI0R
08-28-2012, 11:41 PM
I have been seeing Gilded Drake in sideboards what matches would you bring him in?

Bring them in against anything with large creatures you can't deal with. Typically reanimator or sneak and show, possibly against knight of the reliquary if you want.

catmint
08-29-2012, 04:07 AM
On Izzet Charm:
Not bolting the face is a downside, but not such a big deal cause it can cylce other cards.
Spell Pierce or creature removal for UR is pretty weak. But I think it might be worth it to get the occasional careful study EOT which can be quit powerful. I will test it as a 1of instead of Fire-Ice.

Still I think this card is best in a shell that has a higher curve and can also get full use out of the flexible utility: UWR Miracle comes to mind.

xfxf
08-29-2012, 04:58 AM
Anyone could help me with a god sideboard plan agaisnt maverick, UW miracle, mirror and combo!?!?

What to take out and what to put in on the play and on teh draw!?!?

Ty so much!

My sideboard is this:
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Scevenging Ooze
3 Submerge
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 REB
1 FoW
1 Flusterstorm
2 Ancient Grudge

I tried to build it as flexible as possible so that almost all the cards could be used in multiple mathcups. For Maverick I bring in Submerges and Sulfur Elemental. If I see a Choke I may bring in the 4th FoW. I tend to side out Daze on the draw and Stifle/Pierce on the play. For UW decks I bring in Ancient Grudges and REBs. If it's a Lingering Souls variant the Sulfur Elementals come in as well. For the mirror Submerges and Scavenging Oozes come in (they are also my GY hate) so I can have a better fighting force in the red zone and more threats. For combo REBs, FoW and Flusterstorm come in. I was thinking about having the 4th Pierce in place of Flusterstorm but then thought, if I have a singleton counterspell in the board just for the combo matchups Flusterstorm is a better alternative. What to take out is very subjective imo, depending on your main deck configuration, play style and what you expect from you opponent.

DarkConfidant
08-29-2012, 10:53 AM
@yeaaaah: Contrats on the 9-2 record and finals finish.

Izzet Charm

Looking over this card I initially thought it would be an auto include in RUG. However, upon thinking about the spots it might compete for, I'm convinced its just not good enough. At :u::r: its too expensive and doesn't quite do enough.

The main problem is its effects are all redundant, more expensive, or weaker variations of cards RUG already uses. Given the eight cantrips, its reasonable to be able to find either a Thought Scour, Fire//Ice (Fork Bolt), and or Spell Pierce with a high level of certainty. I don't understand what the rational would be for cutting Thought Scour or Fire//Ice (Fork Bolt) for Izzet Charm.

As an aside, anyone else find it odd there will be two cards name "Izzet Charm" with each having different text?

xfxf
08-29-2012, 11:04 AM
As an aside, anyone else find it odd there will be two cards name "Izzet Charm" with each having different text?

How so?

Mark Sun
08-29-2012, 12:46 PM
As an aside, anyone else find it odd there will be two cards name "Izzet Charm" with each having different text?

There is no other card named Izzet Charm.

While I think the card warrants testing, the mana constraints are likely too much for RUG Delver.

NidStyles
08-29-2012, 05:01 PM
Izzet Charm belong's in U/R Delver if anything. Not in a Thresh deck.

Borealis
08-29-2012, 05:51 PM
Even then Nid, it might be a stretch. U/R Delver wants burn to hit their opponent even more often than we do, and they don't really need an expensive Spierce or Faithless Looting effect either.

Overall, I think Izzet Charm is a sweet card, but I also think it's too expensive for RUG Delver. I'd still prefer Fire/Ice in most situations.

On Gilded Drake: I think it's a fine card to side in vs. Maverick, especially given the Submerge trick. If you were really serious about this strategy, you'd probably want the full 4 Submerges and at least 2 Drakes: right now I'm only running 3 and 1 personally. BUT I have the 3 Lavamancers in the board, which I'm thinking is less cute and more effective against a variety of creature decks, namely everything Tribal + Maverick. Also, with OmniTell on the rise, I'd be leary of running too many Gilded Drakes when they can just play Omniscience instead of Big Grizz.

My SB as of now is this:
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 REB
1 Flusterstorm
1 Gilded Drake
3 Submerge

Maindeck I'm back to the 4/4/4 plan with dudes, as well as 4 of everything else + 3 Thought Scour, 1 Fire/Ice, 2 Chain Lightning, and no Stifle (still). I've got 30 spells and 30 permanents, so I can flip Delver with the utmost consistency. Grim Lavamancer in the board adds a nice element of being able to burn out your opponent more consistently, and covers Maverick et al. well enough that I wanted to go back to Chain Lightning. Lavaman can theoretically help against Control decks like Miracles too, since you can side into something closer to Blue Zoo if needed. Krosan Grip is a nod to those decks as well as OmniTell, since things like Moat (out of Control) and Omniscience (in general) are unbeatable otherwise, and it never hurts to beat their countermagic. Yea it's more pricey than Nature's Claim, but I'm a burn player at heart and hate giving my opponents life.

I still love Flusterstorm as Spell Pierce #5, and it's a bit more flexible than REB #3. Like, it can counter Overmaster, or Terminus. I'm also light on GY hate, since Scavenging Ooze is no longer present, but that obviously changes as the meta fluctuates. I still want to find space somehow for a Vortex and maybe a Loam again, depending on the meta.

NidStyles
08-29-2012, 08:05 PM
Even then Nid, it might be a stretch. U/R Delver wants burn to hit their opponent even more often than we do, and they don't really need an expensive Spierce or Faithless Looting effect either.

It kill's Ooze, which is a problem card for U/R Delver. Either way, we won't know until someone get's around ot testing it, or someone show's where it belongs if it belongs.

that0neguy
08-29-2012, 11:16 PM
Isn't Izzet Charm just straight up clear cut junk for legacy?

All three of its effects should cost 1 mana not 2, even if it is modular, we don't even really want a looting effect, or to hold up 2 mana for one spell.

Borealis
08-30-2012, 02:05 AM
It kill's Ooze, which is a problem card for U/R Delver. Either way, we won't know until someone get's around ot testing it, or someone show's where it belongs if it belongs.

Not really though. Chain Lightning or Lightning Bolt does it better. And only assuming the green deck didn't leave open some green mana and has no dudes to NOM. Either way, my point there was that there are plenty of spells that shock for 2 damage in legacy, but are easier to cast and can target the opponent. It may seem subtle, but those are big big differences in this format.

I'm not bashing Izzet Charm, I think it's a great card. But in general, for Legacy RUG at least, I think that0neguy is correct. With the amount of card selection we have, you're better off Brainstorming better than having to run a slightly subpar/expensive card that just provides options we already have access to in Spades (or don't want). At 2 mana, I think you'd almost be better off just running something like Counterspell instead. Less flexible, yes, but more powerful every time you actually use it.

Certainly it deserves to be tested. But I don't personally need to test it to know how it will function in my deck. If the damage hit players, or the looting effect was actually a real cantrip, that might be a whole different story. And although I won't be surprised to see it get played to some success as a 1-2 of, it's just a little underwhelming for me.

xfxf
08-30-2012, 05:14 AM
I tried the charm in the place of 2 Chain Lightnings against Omniscience and Esperblade for a couple matches. It saved me once against Esperblade when the game was in topdeck mode and I was holding 2 lands. I used the looting mode and it gave me business. Other times I mostly tried to make it work by trying to keep 2 mana in the cases I would need it. My conclusion is, it can be useful for some people (just like Thoughtscour) but for me it doesn't play well with 1cc spells and Brainstorm and I'd rather retain the smooth flow of the deck and lose out on the few times when it will save my ass.

Arew
08-30-2012, 08:37 AM
I haven't really had the time to test much lately, but I really like the idea of Coliseum against Stoneblade, so I'll probably try Mark Sun's list with 2 Spell Pierces for the Library and Coliseum the next time I get to sit down and test. The only real part of Izzet Charm that I feel like would ever win games is the looting effect, and I think the one-of Coliseum does that better with less downside than Izzet Charm does.

Mark Sun
08-30-2012, 12:01 PM
My conclusion is, it can be useful for some people (just like Thoughtscour) but for me it doesn't play well with 1cc spells and Brainstorm and I'd rather retain the smooth flow of the deck and lose out on the few times when it will save my ass.

Same basic thought process from myself. I like to keep the 2cc spells to a minimum in general, main reason I went down to 3 Tarmogoyf to support Sylvan Library and Fire // Ice was only in my list because it was also blue making it acceptable for FoW. Also, the colorless part of the cost for Tarmogoyf, Library, and Fire//Ice can be paid with Wasteland where this card must have two colored mana to operate. Could have easily been something else.

That said I am a fan of card quality enablers, hence the suggestion of Cephalid Coliseum, so I don't think it would be completely out of line to play Faithless Looting, especially if you don't want to go to 19 lands.

ImpinAintEasy
08-30-2012, 01:44 PM
Same basic thought process from myself. I like to keep the 2cc spells to a minimum in general, main reason I went down to 3 Tarmogoyf to support Sylvan Library and Fire // Ice was only in my list because it was also blue making it acceptable for FoW. Also, the colorless part of the cost for Tarmogoyf, Library, and Fire//Ice can be paid with Wasteland where this card must have two colored mana to operate. Could have easily been something else.

That said I am a fan of card quality enablers, hence the suggestion of Cephalid Coliseum, so I don't think it would be completely out of line to play Faithless Looting, especially if you don't want to go to 19 lands.

I tested looting for awhile and found scour to always be superior at instant speed.

that0neguy
08-30-2012, 04:28 PM
I think I would sooner play with looting than Coliseum. Coliseum only works after you have threshold, so its not like it speeds you up, which looting does. Looting can also be milled off a thought scour to be flashed back

The problem in my eyes is that Thought Scour speeds you up just as much, and is card neutral, vs card disadvantage. In a deck that wants to 1 for 1 to victory I don't think we want either. I would rather have Thought Scour or Preordain. If I was going to play looting, I would want to play it with at least 2 thought scour as well.

If they were Draw 3 discard 2 or draw 2 Discard 1, I would be all over them, but I just don't think either is worth the card disadvantage. Brainstorm and a shuffle can fix flooding just as well.

lordofthepit
08-30-2012, 05:05 PM
If they were Draw 3 discard 2 or draw 2 Discard 1, I would be all over them, but I just don't think either is worth the card disadvantage. Brainstorm and a shuffle can fix flooding just as well.

I think most people would be all over a card that's better than Brainstorm.

that0neguy
08-30-2012, 06:18 PM
I think most people would be all over a card that's better than Brainstorm.

I meant on the coliseum, but ya, it would be pretty stupid as an instant/sorc, I don't see that card getting printed any time soon.

Borealis
08-31-2012, 01:39 AM
I'm not sure how I feel about the Coliseum. Cantripping is better than looting in this deck, and the damage is pretty relevant. It only fuels Lavamancer and Mongoose when you are already Thresholding, so it's only really a lategame effect. It does beat Choke, but you should just spell pierce that card anyway.

I'll have to test it out, but I'm reluctant to cut the 3rd thought scour or first fire/ice for anything right now.

P.S.
09-01-2012, 04:48 PM
This thread should have been renamed into RUG Delver forever ago. It has not been called anything other than that since Delver of Secrets was printed. It's just more confusing than it needs to be. :cool:

NidStyles
09-01-2012, 08:32 PM
^^ I've been calling it Thresh for years, and so have most of the people that I know that have been playing the format for more than a year or so.


Not really though. Chain Lightning or Lightning Bolt does it better. And only assuming the green deck didn't leave open some green mana and has no dudes to NOM. Either way, my point there was that there are plenty of spells that shock for 2 damage in legacy, but are easier to cast and can target the opponent. It may seem subtle, but those are big big differences in this format.

I'm not bashing Izzet Charm, I think it's a great card. But in general, for Legacy RUG at least, I think that0neguy is correct. With the amount of card selection we have, you're better off Brainstorming better than having to run a slightly subpar/expensive card that just provides options we already have access to in Spades (or don't want). At 2 mana, I think you'd almost be better off just running something like Counterspell instead. Less flexible, yes, but more powerful every time you actually use it.

Certainly it deserves to be tested. But I don't personally need to test it to know how it will function in my deck. If the damage hit players, or the looting effect was actually a real cantrip, that might be a whole different story. And although I won't be surprised to see it get played to some success as a 1-2 of, it's just a little underwhelming for me.

Hmm I can see that, but having 6 spells of some of the functions it does doesn't sound bad IMO. At the least it's a removal spell that pitches to FOW. 2 Mana isn't really a lot for U/R Delver, they usually have more lands out from my experience.

Borealis
09-02-2012, 02:20 PM
Fire/ice is a removal spell that also pitches to force, but is easier to cast and also can kill your opponent. Also, being able to Snapcaster your spells is key in U/R. But either way, this is the RUG thread, and I don't see izzet charm squeezing I to our list too easily.

P.S., you have a point, but I can also see why people want the historic title still referenced. Renaming it like this might help newer players find it better though:

RUG Delver (Tempo/Thresh)

The Canadian reference is outdated in my opinion. We dont call WUR Delver in modern "Russian Delver", and in general using nationalities to describe decks can be offending to some folks. It doesn't describe what the deck does, just where it supposedly originated. RUG Delver is to the point, but tempo thresh are both valuable descriptors in identifying the deck's major gameplan.

xfxf
09-02-2012, 02:42 PM
Why? Because Canadian Threshold is a better tempo deck than Team America? :laugh:

delcameron
09-02-2012, 04:50 PM
What sideboard options do we have against Lands.dec? There are a few in my meta and aside from my Scavenging Ooze, I feel very ill-equipped.

BlackStarDeceiver
09-02-2012, 05:14 PM
Try Winter Orb ;)

Vandalize
09-02-2012, 07:35 PM
What sideboard options do we have against Lands.dec? There are a few in my meta and aside from my Scavenging Ooze, I feel very ill-equipped.

Stifle and Surgical Extraction (on Loam, ofc) goes the distance. Lands usually play Intuition, so Surgical is the real deal. A turn 1 Delver helps as well. Try to FoW their acceleration, like Exploration and Manabond.

Borealis
09-02-2012, 10:34 PM
Why? Because Canadian Threshold is a better tempo deck than Team America? :laugh:

No, because the Canadian version is from years ago, long before Delver existed. Team America is also a bad name in terms of identifying the actual deck and it's mechanics. The fact that you even made that statement just proves my point: deck names based on country origins or color "allegiances" provide an unnecessary source of argument. It's bad form.

I'm more than happy to give credit where due, but it doesn't help a new player figure out which deck to play. And that's what titles are for. History can come later, after they've picked up the deck and joined the threads.

delcameron
09-03-2012, 12:42 AM
Stifle and Surgical Extraction (on Loam, ofc) goes the distance. Lands usually play Intuition, so Surgical is the real deal. A turn 1 Delver helps as well. Try to FoW their acceleration, like Exploration and Manabond.

Yeah, I could up my Extractions to three SB slots. Also, I've found Sulfuric Vortex to be a great help, and it shuts down their Zuran Orb as a bonus.

It's usually not enough though. Any other ideas, I'd love to hear them.

NidStyles
09-03-2012, 01:05 PM
Yeah, I could up my Extractions to three SB slots. Also, I've found Sulfuric Vortex to be a great help, and it shuts down their Zuran Orb as a bonus.

It's usually not enough though. Any other ideas, I'd love to hear them.

The deck is very very slow without Loam. Extract the Loams and Wastelands.

that0neguy
09-03-2012, 05:16 PM
I see a ton of Lands here at our small tournaments (3/8-12 decks sometimes).

Nimble Mongoose is amazing against them, as well as surgical on either the Loam or wastelands, but any graveyard hate is good against them.

It's also very possible to mana screw them if you are are running Stifle.

I also bring in Ancient Grudge to deal with their Ensnaring bridge and Crucible.

It's also important to be careful with your wasteland targets, getting Academy Ruins out of the picture is usually important or else they can just keep recurring the bridge until you don't have a hard counter. I usually take go:

-3 Goyf (I run the 3 goyf/1 ooze split)
-3 Daze on the play Spell Pierce on the Draw

+2 Surgical
+2 Crypt
+2 Grudge

xfxf
09-04-2012, 08:41 AM
Despite Delver being a miserable card this deck is so stupidly fun sometimes. The other day on cockatrice I played against Maverick. Had no landers and mulled down to 4. The opp was a cool guy so he let me draw a fresh 7. The only land I had was a Wasteland but I kept it and began the game without further due.

He leads with Mom. I topdeck a fetchland and Lightning Bolt it.
He has a two drop, I have Daze. On my turn I drop a Delver.
He plays Knight, I FoW. On my turn Delver flips. I waste his Savannah.
He tries to Wasteland my Volcanic, I have stifle for it. On my turn I drop Mongoose and start beatdown.
He drops Maze of Ith to slow down the beats and has another two drop.
I Forked Bolt the two drop, continue the beats for a couple turns and finish him off with a Lightning Bolt.
He rage quits soon after.

The "cool man, draw 7 seven" guy turns into "ffuuuu!" after 6-7 turns of derp. What a deck :)

Borealis
09-04-2012, 04:58 PM
I see a ton of Lands here at our small tournaments (3/8-12 decks sometimes).

Nimble Mongoose is amazing against them, as well as surgical on either the Loam or wastelands, but any graveyard hate is good against them.

It's also very possible to mana screw them if you are are running Stifle.

I also bring in Ancient Grudge to deal with their Ensnaring bridge and Crucible.

It's also important to be careful with your wasteland targets, getting Academy Ruins out of the picture is usually important or else they can just keep recurring the bridge until you don't have a hard counter. I usually take go:

-3 Goyf (I run the 3 goyf/1 ooze split)
-3 Daze on the play Spell Pierce on the Draw

+2 Surgical
+2 Crypt
+2 Grudge

I'd probably cut Bolt effects before I cut Goyfs. It's nice to have a few to finish them off, but our threats are far more important in the matchup. We need all the dudes we can against their Mazes of Ith, and if your bent on cutting a couple Goyfs, I'd at least side in a couple Grim Lavamancers at the very least, since they can't be Mazed, Moated, or Bridged.

They rarely run any dudes (except maybe postboard), so cutting bolts is fine.

that0neguy
09-04-2012, 09:19 PM
I don't run the Lavamancers anymore, they have been a bit too slow for me. And too awkward with nimble mongoose.

Also the fact that they can easily shut off the red for it makes me not too excited. Oftentimes against Maverick and Lands they can just waste me out of red after I tap to play the lavamancer.

Nimble Mongoose is much more important against the mazes, since it seems to me that they often get several mazes, and if you over extend into mazes, they start to get you with Tabernacle.

Although, they also sometimes bring in Chalice of the Void@1, which Goyf gets around.

NidStyles
09-05-2012, 02:51 AM
I'd probably cut Bolt effects before I cut Goyfs. It's nice to have a few to finish them off, but our threats are far more important in the matchup. We need all the dudes we can against their Mazes of Ith, and if your bent on cutting a couple Goyfs, I'd at least side in a couple Grim Lavamancers at the very least, since they can't be Mazed, Moated, or Bridged.

They rarely run any dudes (except maybe postboard), so cutting bolts is fine.

You want your Bolts for their Creeping Tar Pits. Your main win-con in that matchup is the Mongoose. I've played that matchup a lot... You will want your burn post board otherwise their Thalia's will wreck your ability to gain tempo on them. The Dark Confidants are not worth killing IMO. Even if they have more cards than you, their cards are worse. Game 1 you should note whether they are run Ports as well, as not all builds are running them anymore.

Sturtzilla
09-05-2012, 09:14 AM
Greetings All!

I don't mean to derail the Lands MU discussion that is taking place, but I have a quick report of my weekly event. I managed to dominate yet another weekly. This week my match ups were G/U Enchantress (2-1), Goblins (2-0), Goblins (2-1), and Omni-Tell (2-1). My 4-0 record was good for $20 in store credit and a go infinite.

If you guys haven't seen this new G/U Enchantress list, it is pretty legit. It basically can play a prison control route against us with Elephant Grass or just go straight nuts and do the normal Enchantress plan of drawing a ton of cards. The cool thing is that they bounce all of your shit and then beat you down with little silly dudes like Cloud of Faeries and Eternal Witness. It is pretty funny. My opponent managed to get me game one, as my hand was counter light. Post-board, I had more relevant means to interact and just wrecked him. It seems all of their cards suck if they can't draw off of them... LOL. Just countering all of the Enchantress effects and/or Extracting the Enchantresses worked really well for me.

As for the Goblins match ups, I finally took some advice from a few of you guys and squeezed 2 Rough/Tumbles into my board. I was pretty happy with them too. In round three, game two, I Roughed his boards with him in topdeck mode, which got me there. And round three, game three, I got to cast both Roughs to just completely blow him out (he got pretty lucky... topdecked a Goblin Ringleader after the first Rough and hit three dudes.) So I am pretty on board with this change up to the board, do you guys have any other tech for this match up that I might have overlooked? I am interested as Goblins is now competing for the largest portion of my meta.

Omni-Tell is an interesting deck. I am not sure as to whether it is a good or bad match up at this point. I just felt like I was behind in the first two games. In game three I was able to sculpt a pretty awesome hand. It had a FoW, Pyroblast, Envelop, and a Stifle and this is all with two threshed Geese on the table. I wouldn't mind hearing some thoughts on this match up too, if any of you guys have had experience with it.

Borealis
09-05-2012, 09:44 AM
You want your Bolts for their Creeping Tar Pits. Your main win-con in that matchup is the Mongoose. I've played that matchup a lot... You will want your burn post board otherwise their Thalia's will wreck your ability to gain tempo on them. The Dark Confidants are not worth killing IMO. Even if they have more cards than you, their cards are worse. Game 1 you should note whether they are run Ports as well, as not all builds are running them anymore.

Fair enough, but I'd still side out my sorcery-speed Burn first in that case. You could also shave a Thought Scour, since Mongoose will probably get Threshold fairly quickly regardless. I can see cutting 1 threat, but not 3. Against any control deck, we need a critical mass of threats or we literally just durdle until they take over the lategame.

Sturtz, good job against the Gobbos. I'm still testing Lavamancer, but I think Rough/Tumble will eventually replace them as the better all-around card in those types of matches. Helps against Dredge too, and is probably more effective against Elves and the like too.

wbw
09-05-2012, 10:33 AM
The decision about Rough//Tumble and Lavamancers as anti-aggro/tribal should be based mostly on the amount of Merfolk you think there will be.

Rough//Tumble is just amazing versus the non-merfolk tribes, still good versus Maverick and good against other decks, like Enchantress and Dredge. However it is awful against Merfolk, because two lords will shut it down, and you will need to sculpt a favorable board to blow out with bolts and blasts, most of the time it will not be easy.

Meanwhile, Lavamancers shine against the fish and are still good versus elves, gobbos and Maverick, and can be quite useful against control decks as it provides constant damage. The downsides are the tempo loss involved in setting the Lavamancer up and the fighting for the same resources as the Mongooses.

On a side note, for those still testing Lavamancers, what do you think of a singleton Basilisk Collar on the SB? It could help against all aggro decks and even against S&T/Reanimator.

Sturtzilla
09-05-2012, 11:18 AM
Sturtz, good job against the Gobbos. I'm still testing Lavamancer, but I think Rough/Tumble will eventually replace them as the better all-around card in those types of matches. Helps against Dredge too, and is probably more effective against Elves and the like too.

Hey thanks! Stifle goes a long way in the Goblins match up as you can keep them off of land, protect your own land, and also shut down the card advantage that they can generate. It is just priceless when a Goblins player plays a Goblin Ringleader off of a Cavern of Souls and gets wrecked by a Stifle. In my second goblins match up, my opponent was like, "Cast Ringleader." I was responded, "Thinking." He goes, "You can't counter it. Cavern." I was like... LOLZ... Stifle. Get wrecked.



The decision about Rough//Tumble and Lavamancers as anti-aggro/tribal should be based mostly on the amount of Merfolk you think there will be.

My meta currently has 2 Goblins, 2-3 storm decks that use Empty the Warrens, 1 U/G Enchantress, me on RUG, and the Omni-Tell guy who also plays Stoneblade/Miracles. Quite a shift due to school being back in session. There is one guy that sometimes plays Merfolk but it doesn't seem worth it when Rough/Tumble is such a house against all of these other decks.



On a side note, for those still testing Lavamancers, what do you think of a singleton Basilisk Collar on the SB? It could help against all aggro decks and even against S&T/Reanimator.

I think that it is really powerful. It gives you a really good piece of trump that can kill stupid big creatures like KotR, reanimated stuff, Emrakul, etc. It can also clear a path for our creatures, all while gaining a bit of life, which can be very relevant in a race. On the flip side, my experience with sideboard one-ofs is that I rarely draw them. Moreover hoping to draw a Collar when you have a Lavamancer, isn't outlandish, but isn't too favorable. I think there are likely better sideboard options.

Mark Sun
09-05-2012, 11:30 AM
Omni-Tell is an interesting deck. I am not sure as to whether it is a good or bad match up at this point. I just felt like I was behind in the first two games. In game three I was able to sculpt a pretty awesome hand. It had a FoW, Pyroblast, Envelop, and a Stifle and this is all with two threshed Geese on the table. I wouldn't mind hearing some thoughts on this match up too, if any of you guys have had experience with it.

Show and Tell decks are one of the primary reasons I went back to the 18 Land/Stifle build rather than the 19 Land/Spell Pierce build. The Sol Lands do too much work against Spell Pierce alone and can sometimes pull them ahead too far. Adding Stifle back into the deck allowed me to prioritize Wastelands >> Sol Lands, and Stifle on their fetchlands. Subsequently, their Overmaster plan becomes worse because, as it turns out, it needs extra mana to go that route.

I did overdo the combo hate for Gen Con, but disregarding a misevaluation of my own hand in one of the rounds (leading to me losing a game against the eventual tournament winner), I felt like I could never lose to the Show and Tell decks, and was always happy to see it.

Sturtzilla
09-05-2012, 11:58 AM
@ Mark Sun

Thanks for the advice. I remember awhile back you suggested that I try out Envelop to help with the Miracles match up. Well my meta has changed a good bit since then. Interestingly enough, Envelop is still pretty sick against basically everything in my field. It is great against Miracles, all of the Storm decks, and has quite a few applications in the Omni-Tell match up. At this point, the only decks that it really doesn't do much against are the 2 Goblins decks, the 1 Enchantress, and it is marginal against the one Dredge player (they still get all of their triggers and what not, although it is another decent answer to basically all of their spells). So overall it seems that it is a solid board cards for half to 2/3s of my meta now.

The way that you mentioned is basically how I played against the deck. Trying to take out Sol lands with Wastes and Stifles on Fetches. Doing those things with a treat in play and some counter back up was the general game plan. Anyway thanks again for the suggestion.

Borealis
09-05-2012, 03:14 PM
The decision about Rough//Tumble and Lavamancers as anti-aggro/tribal should be based mostly on the amount of Merfolk you think there will be.

Rough//Tumble is just amazing versus the non-merfolk tribes, still good versus Maverick and good against other decks, like Enchantress and Dredge. However it is awful against Merfolk, because two lords will shut it down, and you will need to sculpt a favorable board to blow out with bolts and blasts, most of the time it will not be easy.

Meanwhile, Lavamancers shine against the fish and are still good versus elves, gobbos and Maverick, and can be quite useful against control decks as it provides constant damage. The downsides are the tempo loss involved in setting the Lavamancer up and the fighting for the same resources as the Mongooses.

On a side note, for those still testing Lavamancers, what do you think of a singleton Basilisk Collar on the SB? It could help against all aggro decks and even against S&T/Reanimator.

I'm not really worried about Merfolk, at least not locally. It's probably not a great matchup, but it's close, and we have enough other SB cards to handle them anyway. Rough/Tumble still works against them assuming we actually draw other removal spells too, but yes Lavamancer will completely shut them down in most cases. But Merfolk has consistently shown that it can't hold onto Tier 1 status like it used to, so it won't be affecting my SB decisions very much.

It's more that I haven't gotten a chance to test Lavamancer fully, and I actually like him for a variety of reasons beyond the obvious ones. He'll get a true run this coming weekend, and I'll decide then how I feel about him. It's also likely that 3 is too many, and I need the extra combo/grave hate slot instead.

Basilisk Collar is going a step too far in my opinion, as you're very unlikely to ever set up that combo when it matters, and beyond that scenario it's just a weaker version of Jitte. I don't see the need/space for Jitte either, but Collar is just too cute.

I don't yet feel the need for Stifle to return, even with a rise in Show and Tell. In my experience, we have decent game against them already.

ajfennewald
09-06-2012, 04:37 PM
Try Winter Orb ;)
In reference to a good sb card against lands
Price of Progress

that0neguy
09-06-2012, 04:42 PM
My problem with Lavamancer was against the Wasteland decks. You go Fetch Volc Lavamancer, they go Wasteland volc, and hes dead. And the match ups where it is supposed to be amazing: Maverick, Merfolk, Goblins, ect are all wasteland decks.

I'm switching back to Fire/Ice, the ability to do things like tap down a Knight or kill 2 x/1s seems much more powerful. The biggest problem with it is Thalia. 3 mana is a lot to pay for most spells in RUG.

Borealis
09-07-2012, 12:51 PM
Good point 0neguy.

Having not tested either option thoroughly, I think I'm better off with just running 2 Rough/Tumble at this weekend's FoW tournament.

As you said, Lavamancer has issues against Wasteland, and costs more resources to keep up with the board. Also, you need an early Lavamancer to actually effect the game, whereas you can dig into your Rough/Tumble later in the game and have it still be good. I also like that Rough is spell for Delver, doesn't compete with Mongoose, and can be used against other random decks like Dredge, Storm, and Belcher (empty the warrens). It's even good against deadguy builds using Lingering Souls or Bitterblossom. Overall, I think it's a better choice in an open meta, and doesn't force me to decide between how many Mongeese, Lavamen, and Thought Scours to run in Sideboard games. Less headache is good.

SB for this weekend:

2 Rough/Tumble
1 Sulfuric Vortex (still unsure on this one)
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 REB
1 Flusterstorm
2 Ancient Grudge (or possibly a 1/1 split with Kgrip for OmniTell)
3 Submerge
1 Gilded Drake (also unsure here, but works against fatties + Maverick)

As mentioned before, my main still has all the 4-ofs, plus 3 Thought Scour, 2 Chain, and 1 Fire/Ice. Also NO Stifle.

that0neguy
09-07-2012, 03:47 PM
Here is the list that I am playing at a decent sized legacy tournament tomorrow. It's also the list I played at SCG MLPS top 64 last weekend -2 Lavamancers + 2 fire/ice:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Thought Scour
3 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire/Ice
4 Wasteland
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
6 Fetch

SB
3 Submerge
2 Mind Harness
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Red elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Force of Will

I really do not like force of will in most match ups. Obviously it needs to be there for several decks, but in the mirror its pretty bad. Against fair decks its pretty bad. Its mostly good against combo, or when you abosultely need to stop a threat (Knight of the Reliquary/Goblin Lackey/Aether Vial)

I want to fit in a few Rough/Tumble or Sulfur Elemental, but I don't really know what I would cut to do it.

I was curious how people side against Maverick. It seems like a very bad match up, even with submerge/Mind harness. Do people bring in crypts against their knights, or usually just Submerge/Mindharness? Do you leave in Force of will to stop the knights? Or take them out to prevent a 2:1

Borealis
09-07-2012, 04:52 PM
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Thought Scour
3 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire/Ice
4 Wasteland
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
6 Fetch

SB
3 Submerge
2 Mind Harness
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Red elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Force of Will

61 Cards maindeck? You might want to shave a Stifle/Daze/Spell Pierce, especially since you're only on 18 lands. Otherwise looks good, and I have to agree with you on not liking 4 FoW. Still, it's the card that wins the unfair matchups the most, so for now I'm sticking with 4. I hate having to put 1 in the SB.

As for Maverick, I'd personally cut the Mind Harnesses. You can either add in 2 Rough/Tumble, or leave 1 Harness and add the 4th Submerge, or some number of Gilded Drakes. Mind Harness gets expensive very quickly, but having 1 isn't terrible, especially since it helps a bit against Goblins and random problematic red dudes. Rough/Tumble is probably your best bet to fight Tribal in general, and it's obviously decent against G/W too. Gilded Drake is a great way to steal their KOTRs, and makes for a nice little combo with Submerge if you can get it going. That plan would want you to play like 2 drakes and 4 submerge though, and it's only effective sometimes, so I wouldn't go out of your way there. Drake is nice to have for the Fatty decks too, but it's not entirely necessary.

I would keep some number of Forces in against Maverick, usually 2-3. Daze and Spell Pierce can get a lot worse against them, but you pretty much need to Force their Knights, Thalias and sometimes Rangers.

You could also potentially cut a Crypt or Surgical, since you have the maindeck Ooze (I'm considering going back to that 1-of as well for Sunday). Crypt/Surgical are only really great against Dredge and Reanimate, and I rarely find myself siding in more than 1-2 Extractions in any other matchups. Give Grafdigger's Cage some thought, it really shuts those decks down hard, since they can't play around it at all and must remove it. By the time they've done that, you can lock up the game much faster, since you don't need to keep mana open every single turn. A 1/1/1/1 split of Extraction, Cage, Crypt, and the Ooze might actually be really good, since they will never know what to play around. Just a thought.

xfxf
09-07-2012, 05:15 PM
Anecdotal question.

You're playing against an unknown deck and you're on the play. Your opening 7 is:
Delver, Mongoose, Daze, Fetchland, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Bolt, Forked Bolt

Do you fetch for Volcanic Island or Tropical Island?
What if you know you are playing against Maverick?

Jonathan Alexander
09-07-2012, 05:22 PM
Anecdotal question.

You're playing against an unknown deck and you're on the play. Your opening 7 is:
Delver, Mongoose, Daze, Fetchland, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Bolt, Forked Bolt

Do you fetch for Volcanic Island or Tropical Island?
What if you know you are playing against Maverick?

I mull that hand against an unknown opponent. Actually I don't even know if I'd keep that against a known opponent. Okay, maybe against Elves.

that0neguy
09-07-2012, 05:26 PM
I'm a bad player like that with the 61st card.

I have actually really liked Mind Harness. I generally save my wastelands to pay for it when I am bringing it in, but as long as you keep it around for 2-3 turns, it can often be enough to just win the game, since it usually grabs a Knight or Goyf depending on the match up. a Harness can put a lot of pressure on them, acting as a removal spell, and their biggest guy for U + upkeep.

It seems like I have rarely had a problem killing the opponent, or killing the creature before sending it back to them the following turn. (It steals lavamancer too, and the lavamancer just kills himself on your last upkeep.) I usually use it as the last threat after a war of attrition, to push through the last points of damage.

We have a lot of Dredge and Lands here, so I like surgical, although if I were going to another star city event, I think I would probably cut 1 extraction and a REB for 2 rough/tumble? There are a lot of match ups that I like to bring in a single extraction for the random wasteland extract their dual. Or extracting their wastelands in the mirror in response to a LFtL. Or a single extraction for lingering souls against esper control. In the mirror there are a lot of decent extraction targets. I have found that knowing that they do not have goyf's, or bolts, or a type of mana can be benificial, even if you are down a card. Knowing they don't have a way to kill your goyf because you extracted their burn spells can be a big deal. Knowing they can't cast anymore green creatures is huge, ect.

Borealis
09-07-2012, 06:10 PM
Anecdotal question.

You're playing against an unknown deck and you're on the play. Your opening 7 is:
Delver, Mongoose, Daze, Fetchland, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Bolt, Forked Bolt

Do you fetch for Volcanic Island or Tropical Island?
What if you know you are playing against Maverick?

Swap a Bolt for a Ponder/Brainstorm and I'd keep this hand. Otherwise, big risk. I think if you do keep it though, you fetch Volcanic since Mongoose is useless until you cast all the other cards anyway, plus you already have a threat. If you know you're facing Maverick, than obviously you need the burn. But they can just win with Wasteland turn 1.

that0neguy
09-10-2012, 01:40 AM
Nivmagus Elemental U/R (hybrid)

Creature - Elemental
Exile an instant or sorcery spell you control: Put two +1/+1 counters on Nivmagus Elemental.
When it escaped, the experimenters hesitated. It would cause untold havoc, yet they wished to see it in action.
Illus. Mike Bierek #219/274 1/2

Do we think this is interesting?

Obviously you don't want to just go exiling brainstorms off the stack, but if that brainstorm is about to get hit by an opposing Daze/spell Pierce you have a 3/4 for 1.

If we dropped Spell Pierce for Flusterstorm, they need to pay for as many copies of the spell as they can, or else they get removed to flusterstorm and their spell gets countered.

You can fire off dead late game dazes as a +2+2 at the first spell you see (even your own). Spell Pierce seems dead less often, but still can be fired off as well.

To me it seems right on the fringe, but the bigger problem being that what do you cut. Mongoose's untargetablity is amazing, and tarmogoyf is easier to make huge.

useL
09-10-2012, 01:52 AM
I dont see the Nivmagus Elemental being playable at all. 2 cards for a 3/4 that can be killed with any removal (except red) and blocked by Knights/goyfs all day? I dont see it.

that0neguy
09-10-2012, 02:08 AM
But most of the time it will not be 2 cards.

If you have him in play, and they go to counter something of yours, you just remove your spell to pump him, and fizzle their counterspell.

Same thing in counterwars, if they tap out to play a goyf, you daze it, they force your daze, you Force the goyf again, you remove the daze from the game - their goyf is countered and you pump your guy +2+2

I think flusterstorm is the real crazy interaction though.

They play a threat, you counter, they counter you flusterstorm. they allow the first copy to counter their spell, then you give your guy +6+6. They will always need to tap out as much as they can to flusterstorm.

But I think the big thing is that your first countered spell makes him a 3/4. In the mirror he gets bigger than any Goyf, and survives lighning bolt.

xfxf
09-10-2012, 05:12 AM
So you're saying this card is good as a consolation prize? I an uderstand that sometimes our conditional counters are dead and it's nice to get something out of the deal. Also sometimes your spells get countered, it's also nice to get something out of the deal. But is that something really worth the times when this guy is sitting there as a 1/2?

I can see this card trumping mirror matches since countering your creatures and not countering them won't matter as long as this guy is on the table but what about other matches? Show and Tell player counters your two conditional counters, this guy becomes 5/6 but opponent has an Emrakul now? Did it really matter? Against Maverick, what are you going to do with your 1/2?

that0neguy
09-10-2012, 10:17 AM
Ya your probably right, it is probably terrible against MAverick/combo

Sturtzilla
09-10-2012, 12:22 PM
I am not really thrilled about it for this deck. It seems like it can be useful if we ran lots of storm spells or if we want to get rewarded for running our spells into our opponents counters. I guess in some scenarios it can be decent by turning our out gunned soft counters into power on the board. I think most of the time I would rather just pitch those to FoW.

There might be some sort of fringe storm deck that could support this guy. But at that point, why not just kill your opponent with your storm spells?

Borealis
09-10-2012, 01:08 PM
Yea, he's way too situational I think.

In other news, I got third place at a small local tournament yesterday. Took home a foil misty rainforest as consolation prize. Report to follow soon.

Jonathan Alexander
09-10-2012, 02:29 PM
It's a card that would be good in the mirror but is bad against Submerge and Mind Harness. I don't see how that should work out.

Borealis
09-10-2012, 04:59 PM
So yeah, got 3rd place in a small Legacy tournament yesterday at Toys N Things in Danvers, MA. Prizes were 4 Force of Wills for 1st place, and once 18 people were confirmed, they added another $140 in credit for the top 4. (60/40/40 for 2nd-4th) On with the Rounds!

Round 1, Daniel on Bant 12-post

I was on the play Game 1 and flipped an early Delver with some countermagic backup. I think I ended up drawing like 3 green creatures in a row at the perfect times, and he didn't manage to stabilize before I ran him over. Game 2 was similar, but he did manage to All is Dust away 2 Delvers and 2 Mongeese. I still had pressure somehow though, and he never got to cast an Eldrazi. He led both games with a turn 1 Pithing Needle on Wasteland, which did suck, but I just Brainstormed them away.

Win 2-0
1-0

Round 2, Ethan on Merfolk

Ethan is a friend, and we had glanced briefly at each other's lists before the tournament, so we knew we were in for a fun Tempo Mirror. I started on the draw games 1 and 2, winning the first and losing the second. I don't remember these games too well, but I know I got a pretty good mix of Burn, Threats, and Counterspells on time, and managed to pull it out in 3 games. Game 2 was by far our best game, with a multitude of trades back and forth, a heated race in the midgame with Mongoose/Goyf vs. Silvergill/Lord, and me finally succumbing to his unblockability 1 turn short of killing him on the backswing. Game 3 was something like double Goyfs to his low-action draw. I felt lucky to have beaten the Fishy menace, but unlucky to have to deliver a loss to a friend in Round 2. I also remember keeping 1-landers against him in Games 1 and 3, which obviously paid off due to some lucky Ponders.

Win 2-1
2-0

Round 3, Anthony on Elves!

Tribal again! At this point, a theme starts to form in my matchups at this gig. Game 1 I'm on the draw, but he starts to help me out with a Horizon Canopy, taking some damage while I flip an early Delver. At some point, he lands Mirror Entity, and turns it into a race, while I counter his key combo pieces and keep getting in there with Delver. I win with us both at 2. Canopy definitely hurt him this game. Game 2 I open with a hand of Submerge, Bolt, Wasteland, Delver, and countermagic. He is on the play and opens with Dryad Arbor, go. I consider the line for a second, and then happily open with Land, dude, Submerge the Arbor. He replays it next turn, I wasteland it. He doesn't draw another land. I miraculously beat Elves without even drawing Rough/Tumble

Win 2-0
3-0

Round 4, Keith on Maverick

Keith is another good acquaintance from the local scene, and I'm not happy to be playing him either. Maverick is not a good matchup, and Keith is no slouch. I lose the first, take the second with a fistful of tempo, and then just fold in the 3rd game when I keep a 1-lander to his Wasteland draw. The wheel comes around....

Lose 1-2
3-1

At this point, I'm a lock for Top 8, and draw with my Know-and-Tell-playing opponent (Joe).

Round 5, ID into Top 8
3-1-1

Top 8, Quarterfinals, Ethan on Merfolk (again)

Not cool, gotta play the friend again. I guess it happens when 30% of the tournament is your gang.

I'm on the play again game 1, he mulls to 5, and I get there quick with an early flipped Delver that he has no answer for. In game 2, he pulls the old, "Wasteland your Volc, Surgical your Volc" maneuver, and puts me off red. I somehow manage to draw enough lands, cantrips, and eventually threats to still beat him, despite having no way to stop his creatures. After discussing it post-match, he stated that he probably should have waited, and cut me off green instead. I'm sure that would have been worse for me, with no green beaters to win with, though I would have had a lot of removal for him to get through. I also forced his Vial this game, which was actually very relevant. Either way, these were some weird matches, and he didn't get any of the usual "Fish, Fish, Lord, Lord," KILL YOU draws that can beat RUG handily. I got pretty lucky here.

Win 2-0
Top 4

Top 8, Semifinals, Anthony on Elves! (again)

See the pattern here? Again, small tournament, but I would have REALLY loved to play against the combo decks, or even control. 5 Tribal matches gets a bit tiresome, and my luck only goes so far. Anyway, I get it to game 3, draw a killer hand with 3 red spells, including a Rough/TUmble, but he still manages to keep the cards flowing, and I eventually fold. It's possible I could have waited a turn to cast the Rough, and played a Goyf, but I was worried he would either go off or drop a 5/5 and draw enough cards to nullify my sweeper. Also, Mortarpod killed both my Delvers just before flipping, which was easily a game-winner for him.

Lose 1-2
3rd place

The top 4 was all willing to split prize to each take home a FOW and $35 credit, except one fellow (my round 1 opponent, coincidentally). I respect that decision, but it burns a little bit knowing that he also lost in the semis, costing us both a Force of Will. It happens though, and you can't be bitter. I probably could have played a little tighter and pulled out the win, but I also had done pretty well against the bad matchups all day, so I can't complain. I took the $40 and bought my first Foil Fetchland (misty). All in all, a good day, with good opponents.

JJ-JKidd
09-11-2012, 09:28 PM
I just hope Abrupt Decay wont pose that much problem for RUG.

that0neguy
09-11-2012, 10:33 PM
a uncounterable 1:1 is still a 1:1

Borealis
09-12-2012, 10:25 AM
Yea I wouldnt worry too much. It's a great effect against us, but probably will end up being about as problematic as a turn 1 inquisition of kozilek out of the Rock decks. Solid removal for sure, but it's not likely to be a 4-of anywhere, and they still can't eat a Goose with it.

On a larger scale, I do think that a G/B/x zombies deck is likely to rise in legacy based on the power level of the golgari cards we are seeing. Maybe not, but gravecrawler, bloodghast, lotleth troll, and grisly salvage seem like a solid core for a zombie deck. I'll let Sam Black and Caleb Durward weigh in on that prediction before getting too worried, but it would probably be a reasonably bad matchup for us.

apistat_commander
09-12-2012, 10:56 AM
Yea I wouldnt worry too much. It's a great effect against us, but probably will end up being about as problematic as a turn 1 inquisition of kozilek out of the Rock decks. Solid removal for sure, but it's not likely to be a 4-of anywhere, and they still can't eat a Goose with it.

On a larger scale, I do think that a G/B/x zombies deck is likely to rise in legacy based on the power level of the golgari cards we are seeing. Maybe not, but gravecrawler, bloodghast, lotleth troll, and grisly salvage seem like a solid core for a zombie deck. I'll let Sam Black and Caleb Durward weigh in on that prediction before getting too worried, but it would probably be a reasonably bad matchup for us.

Many of the decks that can/will run Abrupt Decay weren't exactly positive MUs before. GB already has a ton of removal that hits us pretty hard so this isn't adding too much power to those decks. I am not too worried about Green/Black decks popping up as Maverick already does everything we are afraid of in an efficient shell (solid manabase, high threat density, tutoring, Thalia). There would have to be some really powerful interactions to knock Maverick off as the go-to blue hate deck.

I am having trouble deciding between Fire/Ice and Forked Bolt. F/I pitches to Force, can tap down big dudes, and can be cast during an endstep. On the other hand, two mana is really steep and once a Thalia comes down it gets significantly harder to cast. Forked Bolt pumps Goyf and is much easier to cast but is far more rigid. I could just run a 1/1 split but I feel like that basically means I won't be able to find either card when I need it. My local meta has a lot of aggro, so I am leaning towards Forked Bolt but I am sucker for versatile cards. I am running an 18 lands/Stifle build.

A singleton Sylvan Library has been pretty good for me in testing. It really shines in slower MUs and landing it against some decks essentially means you can't lose. I am still trying out Sulfuric Vortex in the board but so far it has been pretty strong. It comes in against both Stoneblade and Miracles and seems to do more work against both than something like Krosan Grip or Envelop.

that0neguy
09-12-2012, 11:37 AM
I am using Fire/Ice over forked bolt.

Ice is one of the only ways to push creatures through a 6/6 Knight/Ooze for the last few points of damage against maverick. But it does suck against Thalia.

I never really liked forked Bolt. If I was going to run a Sorc speed burn, I usually wanted it to hit for more (chain lightning).

Borealis
09-12-2012, 11:38 AM
Good points Apistat_commander. I think I'm actually more excited about building a G/B Durward type deck than I am worried about facing one with RUG. I wouldn't expect them to be tier 1, but don't be surprised if they pop up in top 8s for a few tournaments.

I'm also considering Sylvan Library, but I'm still seeing more combo and aggro than I am control. Maindeck is too tight, and I like my 30 spells for delver, but SB is an option for me. It would have to take the place of Vortex though, and as hard as Vortex is to cast, I think it's the better spell for miracles and blade decks.

I also prefer chain lightning right now and in general. I have 1 fire/ice and the roughs in the board, and I'd rather not concern myself too much with Thalia and friends. I am considering another submerge though.

apistat_commander
09-12-2012, 12:40 PM
I appreciate the opportunity for 2 for 1's presented by F/I and Forked Bolt. I have tried taking the deck in a more aggro direction with additional burn, but I wasn't happy with it in the end. I think I will try out F/I this week at my local tournament to see if I prefer it over Forked Bolt.

I see mostly slower aggro and control in my meta, so Sylvan Library is pretty good. I like it more than the 4th Spell Pierce at the very least. I have considered a 2/2 split of Pierce and Snare in that slot, but Snare feels too narrow to me. I could cut a copy of F/I to fit in 3 Pierce/2 Snare but I don't like how that plays against aggro.

I was reading through an older part of the thread and someone made an interesting point about Snare. We capitalize on tempo/LD so well that we can frequently keep an opponent at two mana, thus making Snare live for much longer. However that may just be outmoded thinking as the curve for relevant spells has expanded a bit. Is anyone else running Spell Snare to good results?

that0neguy
09-12-2012, 01:26 PM
I feel like I rarely have the opportunity to 2:1 an opponent with Forked Bolt/Fire//ice.

If they play a Mom turn 1 - it needs to die now, not next turn. Randomly hitting a Heirarch in addition to thalia is nice, but it also occasionally doesn't matter that much if they have enough lands. It also seems that most of the opportunities to 2:1 your opponent come against Maverick, or from misplays. (I ran 2 unflipped delvers without back up into a forked bolt by mistake once, won't do that again)

I can definately see the logic behing Chain lightning. There are several MUs where Forked bolt/fire is just 2 damage to target creature/player, and it would be better as having the option to go 3 to the face with Chain than to hope for a relavent 2:1.

Right now I am running fire/ice because I am seeing a lot of Maverick/junk in my meta. So there are some opportunities to 2:1 the opponent, but I can also just tap down a resolved knight in an attempt to alpha strike for lethal as well.

If it wasn't for the abundance of Mav/junk though, I would be running Chain lightning.

Sturtzilla
09-12-2012, 02:43 PM
I was reading through an older part of the thread and someone made an interesting point about Snare. We capitalize on tempo/LD so well that we can frequently keep an opponent at two mana, thus making Snare live for much longer. However that may just be outmoded thinking as the curve for relevant spells has expanded a bit. Is anyone else running Spell Snare to good results?

I have been running the following counter package the past few weeks:

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

I have been pretty happy with it as a 2 of. The tough part is knowing when to cast it, hold it, or pitch it to a FoW. I think I am in a place where I know most of the decks that people play in my meta and therefore if it is useful or not in a particular match. Moreover if it is useful, I know what the key cards that I want to counter with it are.

That being said, I am not sure if the point about your opponent being held at 2 mana is relevant. My opinion on that would be you cannot predicate your strategy (and moreover deck composition) on your opponent only casting 2 cmc spells. Sure we may be able to keep them at 2 longer with the right hand, but it will ultimately come down to the specific deck. It might be chocked full of two drops or it might omit them. What I am trying to say is that while both Spell Snare and keeping your opponent at 2 lands are good for this deck, they may or may not have any relation or interaction to each other.

Sturtzilla
09-12-2012, 02:59 PM
What do we think about Counterflux?

Counterflux :u::u::r:
Counterflux can't be countered by spells or abilities.
Counter target spell you don't control
Overload :1::u::u::r:

http://i.imgur.com/HpNC0.jpg

I will be the first to say, it sure seems on the high end of our curve. It is a hard, non-conditional counter spell that cannot be countered. So it seems like it could have some useful applications in some combo match ups. Moreover the Overload (even more on the high end), just blows out Storm decks. Then again, so does Stifle. I am interested in hearing thoughts on this new arrival.

CranialX
09-12-2012, 04:12 PM
The challenge in using Counterflux is the mana cost.
If you have it in your opening hand its already a dead card. Player have to wait for 3 turns / 3 lands to utilize it. Which a lot of things already happened, by the time it is useless.

Then if you have wasteland as your 3rd land cant use it because of the mana color that is required for it.

Then the next challenge is what card to replace it the deck is already tight without it.

Sturtzilla
09-12-2012, 05:24 PM
The challenge in using Counterflux is the mana cost.


Then if you have wasteland as your 3rd land cant use it because of the mana color that is required for it.


Then the next challenge is what card to replace it the deck is already tight without it.


I agree. If you read my original post, I mention the prohibitive mana cost. Sure you can't cast it off of a Wasteland. I think the third point here is a bit meta dependent. It might be worth the Forked Bolt, Fire//Ice, etc. slots in certain meta games.



If you have it in your opening hand its already a dead card. Player have to wait for 3 turns / 3 lands to utilize it. Which a lot of things already happened, by the time it is useless.

It is never dead. Worse case scenario, you can pitch it to Force of Will (No, I am not advocating playing cards just because they are blue. This one fits the goals we are aiming for, albeit at the top end of our mana capabilities.). I don't usually have trouble getting to 3 land with this deck. Sure every now and then I get rough hands and keep a one lander. Point being if you have an opener with 2 colored sources, finding a 3rd shouldn't be hard with 8 or more cantrips. I think it supportable, but sure it isn't a REB, BEB, Dispel, or Envelop.

It does have two major incentives.
:1: being that it can't be countered (that is a big deal in Legacy).
:2: that it is a hard, non-contitional counter spell. Most of our counter spell have conditional phrase like "unless its controller pays :1: or :2:," or a "non-creature spell," or "converted mana cost 2." Let me be clear about one thing, Counterflux gives zero fucks about what type of spell your opponent is casting, the spell's cost, or if they have open mana. It just counters the shit out of it. End. Of. Story.

I was thinking of it as a sideboard card for combo matchups or counter heavy match ups.

Borealis
09-12-2012, 05:35 PM
Meh, Counterspell still seems way better if you really need a hard counter. Think of it this way, were you missing a hard counterspell at 3 mana before this was printed? Me either.

Some of the Euro lists sport a Counterspell or 2, but I could only see that being necessary if you were having real problems with patient control or combo opponents. And in that case, I think the prohibitive cost is going to be more relevant than the uncounterability. Overload just won't happen, and it seems unnecessary anyway.

Certainly this is a Legacy playable card, but I don't see any reason for us to run it, besides just the fact that it's "Awesome" and counters the shit out of everything.

catmint
09-12-2012, 05:43 PM
For Rug I think counterflux is not solving a problem that was not really there in the first place.

However, I don't think it's complete garbage and might be worth testing. My view on it is that it can be a powerful 3cc answer to a late entreat the angels, jace, or what not, but I would more often just like to have a sulfuric vortex instead of that, because it is not so situational and a powerful proactive threat. Vs. combo I see it way to narrow, since it is slow, only helps against the combodecks countering back and not against overmaster, duress, orim's chant,...

CranialX
09-12-2012, 06:03 PM
We have tons of counter for combo. I dont think that we should worry about combo. And there is flusterstorm for 1 mana that can go a long way.

It will be difficult for legacy to play this card since wasteland run rampant in the format.

But there is always someone out there that will prove my point wrong. Which I am willing to accept.

xfxf
09-12-2012, 06:17 PM
I think for RUG ease of casting is more important than the actual power of the card. Compared to Flusterstorm it's not a clear winner in terms of power (each has pros and cons), so by their casting costs Flusterstorm is the clear winner for RUG.

that0neguy
09-12-2012, 10:29 PM
I have noticed people saying things like - it can always be force of willed, but for me, when I am playing my goal is usually to not need to cast force of will. It's card disadvantage reserved for what would be a death blow (a tutor for tendrils) or an impassible obstical (Opposing Knights/Goyfs/Oozes).

It seems to me like a card that I shuffle away or board out more than I cast in most match ups. Brainstorm/Fetch is still a combo for when you are drawing dead spells.

It seems like people make similar mistakes when playing out multiple lands, or replaying some lands after Daze.

I never go up past 3 lands, unless it is for a kill shot and I need more red. Or if it is to play a fetchalnd to shuffle away some brainstorm cards. Additionally, people seem to make mistakes with Daze like that. If I some how do get value from a daze, and I return my fourth land, instead of slamming it down the next turn, I hold it and hop to shuffle it away with a brainstorm.

Does anyone else play force of will/extra lands like this?

alekill
09-13-2012, 01:43 AM
I think that's pretty much how all competent pilots play the deck.

Anyways I think flusterstorm does what counterflux does just better. Costing one is a big deal for this deck being able to flusterstorm and then do something else in the same turn is great.

catmint
09-13-2012, 03:18 AM
I've seen many people just running out lands, which I thought was wrong. In general I indeed try to hold them to shuffle them away with brainstorm. However, it's not always correct. Depending on the situation, beeing able to play around daze/spell pierce or even hardcasting FoW is a consideration.

that0neguy
09-13-2012, 04:38 AM
Ya there isn't a ton of reason to hold more than 3 lands in your hand, since you can only shuffle 2 back as well.

I think for the most part you can play around most copies of Daze/Spell Pierce with 3-4 lands.

I was more curious about how people use Force of will/Brainstorm. It seems like I almost never cast it. The main time I will use it is on an opposing force of will.

Maybe it is just my meta though, it is somewhat weird with a lot of Lands, and grindy anti blue decks, and the a guy that plays combo where Force is pretty good. Against storm combo, I almost question force of will though. Turn 1 wins are really rare. Between Daze, spell pierce and stifle, it seems like I could probably hold off storm. The obvious problem being decks like belcher that can get the turn 1.

apistat_commander
09-13-2012, 11:00 AM
Counterflux seems pretty terrible for this deck. If I wanted to play a three mana counter (which I absolutely don't) I would play Voidslime. The deck can barely support 2-mana spells, much less a three mana counter. The only things that make the cut at three mana are some sort of gamebreaking spell that just win when they are resolved (Sulfur Elemental, Sulfuric Vortex). Even those are pushing it much of the time.

Speaking of uncastable two mana spells, after some more testing I realized that I am just not a huge fan of Fire//Ice. I had too many situations where I was just unable to cast it. I prefer it over Chain Lightning because the burn in this deck is more often pointed at creatures than at players. If you are killing off an X/1, Forked Bolt is a better choice as you can get an extra point of damage in against your opponent. I figure the amount of situations where I win because I got that extra point from Forked Bolt are about equal to the times where I would win off of the extra damage from Chain Lightning.

Ziveeman
09-17-2012, 08:50 PM
Managed to Top 8 the StarCityGames: Los Angeles Legacy Open, ended up 3rd after Swiss was done (with a 7-0-2 record)

This was my decklist:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Thought Scour
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt

4 Polluted Delta
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
4 Submerge
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Life from the Loam
1 Flusterstorm
1 Gilded Drake
1 Rough / Tumble

My matchups were as follows:
Round 1 - UWr Stoneblade/Miracles - 2-1
Round 2 - Belcher - 2-0
Round 3 - Goblins - 2-1
Round 4 - UB Delver/Death's Shadow - 2-1
Round 5 - Merfolk - 2-0
Round 6 - Goblins - 2-0
Round 7 - Maverick - Paired down to a friend, he scooped me in
Round 8 - Miracles - ID
Round 9 - Maverick - ID

For the most part, I liked my list. Grim Lavamancer singlehandedly won me games that Forked Bolt (which he replaced) wouldn't have, so I would definitely make sure to include him next time I play RUG. Of course, there is the little dissynergy with Mongoose, but in my experience, when you need Lavamancer, the 3/3 Goose isn't as important and vice versa. Lavamancers did their fair share of entering the red zone too. A Taiga would have been nice (especially with Ooze), and since I'm only running 3 Dazes, perhaps one Taiga wouldn't have hurt.

Also, I'm still a fan of Stifle; it's why I ran 18 land instead of the 19 land that some RUG decks have done for awhile. Yes, Stifling fetchlands is pretty sweet but protecting your own manabase is far more important in my opinion. With all of the Miracle shenanigans too, Stifle certainly helps in that regard as well. I realize, however, that the whole Spell Pierce/Stifle debate is really just a matter of personal opinion, so I'm not necessarily saying that not running Stifle is wrong, but to me, I feel a lot more secure knowing that I have Stifles in my deck.

lordofthepit
09-18-2012, 02:54 AM
My metagame has been absolutely flooded with UW Miracles and the occasional combo.

I'm thinking of going with a Caleb Durward-style list with 4 Delvers, 4 Mongoose, 2 GSZ, and possibly a Tarmogoyf.

It's much better against Miracles for quite a few reasons:
1) Goose >>> Goyf
2) Terminus bottoms your Mongoose (which can then be retrieved by GSZ)
3) Gets around Counterbalance
4) Flips Delver

It's also marginally better against graveyard-based decks, since it allows you to search for Scavenging Ooze if you're so inclined.

Of course, it's weaker everywhere else, especially in the mirror where you're just asking for trouble.

Thoughts?

catmint
09-18-2012, 03:57 AM
Congrat Ziveeman. Good to see somone from SCG running stifle. So obviously powerful right now!

Concerning lavamancer:
Which situations/games did it won where forked bolt would loose?
I can also think of situations where it would loose compared to forked bolt like for example against a mother on the draw or lackey on the draw with the opponent cylcling incinerator. I once tested 3 lavamancer in the SB to side out Mongoose and was not convinced. It is kind of antisynergistic with the proactive Delver plan. If i play out delver first, the lavamancer might be irrelevant because of the opponent playing mother or ooze. And if I play Lavamancer first it is very hard to advance my gameplan afterwards, since you are behind on tempo and missing the mana to do what rug does (cantrips, counter, threats). It is also antisynergistic with Rough/Tumble which I think is decent against maverick but a very good sideboard card overall at the moment. Also against Tribal mongoose and Goyf are actually very strong and obviously antisynergistic with lavamancer.

Given all that antisynergy I would want lavamancer to singlehandedly win against Maverick & Tribal which is not at all the case

Taiga?
With 14 colored lands I would not go for a non blue source...

_____________
GSZ vs. Goyf:
The delver factor is marginal and I would not consider it as deciding factor. Having more Goose is helpful against Miracles but it does not matter if the opponent can cast a Terminus. Spot removal is not the biggest issue against UW. Against Esper I like to run out different CMC threats if possible to make EE worse. I would certainly miss Tarmogoyf if I have 2 lands and need a fast clock, but the by far most important factor is the mirror as you said lordofthepit. Goyf is the trump there and you want multiples and certainly you don't want to rely on a 3 CMC Sorcery to resolve. :tongue:

____________
Edit:
What do you think about Electrickery. Not going to the face, dealing only 1 and spending 1R for a "2 for 1" instead of R compared to forked bolt is a downside, but being the 1 mana instant removal for mother, Lackey,... while providing a sweeper for lingering souls, small goblins or maverick dorks for 1R is a big upside. Very often you do not even get the 2 for 1 with forked bolt and the higher casting cost make up for the fact that you can sweep all kinds of stuff. I considered and even saw Simoon played in RUG and this is strictly better.I like the feeling of: "Casting Lingering Souls, Casting Jitte, equip jitte" - Electrickery you...attack for 3. Can imagine running 1 MD replacing 1 forked bolt and 1 in the sideboard (depending how the meta develops of course).

apistat_commander
09-18-2012, 09:13 AM
Electrickery seems like a poor maindeck card. Against many decks Forked Bolt is just a bad Shock, but I would rather have a bad shock than a complete blank. Out of the sideboard Pyroclasm or Rough//Tumble is a stronger choice. Nabbing multiple creatures with either one of those usually buys you enough time to finish the game.

Ziveeman
09-18-2012, 11:56 AM
@catmint: Grim Lavamancer helped me recover from a mulligan to five against Goblins in round 6. I Forced a turn one Lackey, topdecked Lavamancer, and he never had more than two Goblins in play after that. It also helped me versus Merfolk in the Swiss rounds, allowing me to 1-for-1 Kira and still have gas to kill more Merfolk. Lavamancer certainly does force a different gameplan than what RUG Delver is supposed to do. RUG tends to trade one for one with many decks, which doesn't work against decks like Goblins. Lavamancer definitely helps make up for the lost card advantage.

He's also a good STP target, which in one game allowed me to resolve a Tarmogoyf unopposed and win.

Tarmogoyf and Grim Lavamancer actually don't have any dissynergy at all. I've played the combination in Zoo and in RUG before and it's never a problem since you just pick and choose what you exile. Tarmogoyf is the main game plan against Goblins, so I usually take a more controlling route with Lavamancers and then winning the game with Tarmogoyf. It definitely is a little worse with Nimble Mongoose but I think it's worth having a 1/1 shroud dude sometimes if you can just out-card advantage other decks with Lavamancer.

chinEsE girl
09-18-2012, 12:15 PM
So I haven't posted in a while, but I've at least been able to play with RUG delver once a month at my local store, and for the last 3 months I've been doing quite well, going 12-0-1 in all the matches I've played. This is what I'm currently working with

4 delver
4 mongoose
4 goyf

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 thoughtscour
4 lightning bolt
2 fire//ice
1 dismember
4 spell pierce
4 daze
4 force of will
1 spell snare

4 misty rainforest
4 scalding tarn
3 tropical island
3 volcanic island
4 wasteland


1 spell snare
1 ancient grudge
1 rough//tumble
1 sulfur elemental
3 submerge
2 pyro blast
2 disrupt
2 tormod's crypt
1 grafdiggers cage
1 life from the loam

I played this 75 at the last of my monthly events, going 5-0 beating omni tell, rug delver, belcher, TES, and then rug delver again. I even went 10-1 in games, only dropping one against the last rug delver player when he had the nuts on the play in game 2, but those hands happen. Otherwise the list I was playing felt fantastic. I was particularly impressed with spell snare. I wasn't playing many, but every time I drew it the card did some really good work. As for some of the main deck cards that don't see as much play, I really advocate the dismember in the main. It just about the best thing to get rid of opposing goyfs in the mirror, plus it can just kill all sorts of things that bolts and the like couldn't otherwise. As for the fire/ice's, I was finding before that there were several games against maverick and other base green decks where i would be one combat step away from killing them, and something like a KotR or an ooze would show up and stop me from finishing them off. In those situations I just wanted to have extra utility then just another burn spell. Plus I've never ever had issues with casting the card, so it's going to stay. I'm almost certainly going to keep playing this deck in legacy, it's just so consistent and always has a chance against every single opponent.

catmint
09-18-2012, 01:22 PM
@catmint: Grim Lavamancer helped me recover from a mulligan to five against Goblins in round 6. I Forced a turn one Lackey, topdecked Lavamancer, and he never had more than two Goblins in play after that. It also helped me versus Merfolk in the Swiss rounds, allowing me to 1-for-1 Kira and still have gas to kill more Merfolk. Lavamancer certainly does force a different gameplan than what RUG Delver is supposed to do. RUG tends to trade one for one with many decks, which doesn't work against decks like Goblins. Lavamancer definitely helps make up for the lost card advantage.

He's also a good STP target, which in one game allowed me to resolve a Tarmogoyf unopposed and win.

Tarmogoyf and Grim Lavamancer actually don't have any dissynergy at all. I've played the combination in Zoo and in RUG before and it's never a problem since you just pick and choose what you exile. Tarmogoyf is the main game plan against Goblins, so I usually take a more controlling route with Lavamancers and then winning the game with Tarmogoyf. It definitely is a little worse with Nimble Mongoose but I think it's worth having a 1/1 shroud dude sometimes if you can just out-card advantage other decks with Lavamancer.

Sure you can use Lavamancer without hurting tarmogoyf sometimes (maybe often), but saying they have no antisynergy is wrong. They do: simple example you have 2 cards in GY (land, instant) and opponent has a land in the yard - you have to shrink your goyf to activate lavamancer...

Concerning your example: needing to force a lackey for lavamancer to win the game just shows that you did not win the game because of lavamancer. My approach to Goblins is a different one: Delver (invasion), Tempo advantage (attacking while killling lords), using Stifle wisely & rough/tumble has to be the name of the game. Goblins so own the long game its not even funny and our other control cards besiedes of removal & stifle are very often useless because of vial and cavern. Tarmogoyf & Mongoose are good blockers, but for attacking they look pretty stupid against Mogg War Marshall, Goblin Matron and their sick token generators.

I prepared for that matchup a lot and I am pretty convinced my plan has a hudge edge over a controlling route with Lavamancer. Especially their Wasteland, Port & Relic Package (post-board) hits the lavamancer plan quite well.

wcm8
09-19-2012, 09:59 AM
A couple of personal observations about RUG:

1. There is no 'best' configuration. There are around 10 or so flex slots that can be shifted around depending on the rest of the build and the expected metagame, while still maintaining flexibility and power against the field at large. This is why cards like Stifle and Spell Snare can either be the nut high or completely miserable. Arguing over which few cards are the best choice is an exercise in frustration, because it really just depends on which decks you are going to run into. To break it down there are a few main deck 'archetypes' of RUG:

A) Anti-Control: Usually runs some number of Thought Scour to accelerate into 3/3 Geese, also typically runs Spell Snare to combat Stoneforge and Snapcaster. Might opt for Chain Lightning as removal 5-6 to try to win an early damage race. Sylvan Library is a great choice here, and Predict has been good for me in the past as well.
B) Anti-Aggro: Runs additional removal beyond the usual 6 in the form of Forked Bolt, Fire//Ice, Dismember, Grim Lavamancer, etc. Might also run a main deck Scavenging Ooze(s) to recoup life loss and outgun opposing creatures. Possibly cuts Daze and/or FoW down to 3.
C) Anti-Combo: Runs Stifle and probably the 4th Spell Pierce, might either reduce or cut the number of Spell Snare since many combo decks in the format don't really care much about it. Also may have cut the creature count down to 11 for additional blue spells, and is unlikely to be running the 19th land. Might even cut some number of removal spells for more stack control.
D) Middle-of-the-Road: Has a balanced approach in terms of card selection, which means it doesn't have a particular edge against any archetype but might not have as many duds in a given matchup.

I have won tournaments and games with every build approach listed above, so I can't really say that one is better than the other.

2. You really need some method of beating the mirror. With RUG accounting for a large percentage of the expected metagame right now, you're bound to run into another guy slinging Goyfs and Geese. Although some would argue that the mirror match is largely based on skill since you're running close to the same 75, I would argue that it's largely decided on luck (aside from cases where a player makes an epic misplay like getting their guy Submerged in response to a fetchland activation). Sometimes you just resolve 3 Tarmogoyfs in a row. Sometimes you get Wasted out of the game. Sometimes they blind flip two Delvers and your removal is on the bottom of your library. With this in mind, I would definitely consider running either Stifle and/or Life from the Loam, as well as additional methods of dealing with opposing Goyfs: either Submerge + Thoughtscour, Spell Snare, a miser's Dismember, etc. Scavenging Ooze is also fantastic if you get into the long game, and I've had varying results with Jace's Phantasm. Based on your 75, figure out the best sideboard configuration for being on the play and the draw. Even so, the match might largely be decided by who won the die roll for game 1.

Sunday Funday
09-19-2012, 12:35 PM
A couple of personal observations about RUG:

1. There is no 'best' configuration. There are around 10 or so flex slots that can be shifted around depending on the rest of the build and the expected metagame, while still maintaining flexibility and power against the field at large. This is why cards like Stifle and Spell Snare can either be the nut high or completely miserable. Arguing over which few cards are the best choice is an exercise in frustration, because it really just depends on which decks you are going to run into. To break it down there are a few main deck 'archetypes' of RUG:

A) Anti-Control: Usually runs some number of Thought Scour to accelerate into 3/3 Geese, also typically runs Spell Snare to combat Stoneforge and Snapcaster. Might opt for Chain Lightning as removal 5-6 to try to win an early damage race. Sylvan Library is a great choice here, and Predict has been good for me in the past as well.
B) Anti-Aggro: Runs additional removal beyond the usual 6 in the form of Forked Bolt, Fire//Ice, Dismember, Grim Lavamancer, etc. Might also run a main deck Scavenging Ooze(s) to recoup life loss and outgun opposing creatures. Possibly cuts Daze and/or FoW down to 3.
C) Anti-Combo: Runs Stifle and probably the 4th Spell Pierce, might either reduce or cut the number of Spell Snare since many combo decks in the format don't really care much about it. Also may have cut the creature count down to 11 for additional blue spells, and is unlikely to be running the 19th land. Might even cut some number of removal spells for more stack control.
D) Middle-of-the-Road: Has a balanced approach in terms of card selection, which means it doesn't have a particular edge against any archetype but might not have as many duds in a given matchup.

I have won tournaments and games with every build approach listed above, so I can't really say that one is better than the other.

2. You really need some method of beating the mirror. With RUG accounting for a large percentage of the expected metagame right now, you're bound to run into another guy slinging Goyfs and Geese. Although some would argue that the mirror match is largely based on skill since you're running close to the same 75, I would argue that it's largely decided on luck (aside from cases where a player makes an epic misplay like getting their guy Submerged in response to a fetchland activation). Sometimes you just resolve 3 Tarmogoyfs in a row. Sometimes you get Wasted out of the game. Sometimes they blind flip two Delvers and your removal is on the bottom of your library. With this in mind, I would definitely consider running either Stifle and/or Life from the Loam, as well as additional methods of dealing with opposing Goyfs: either Submerge + Thoughtscour, Spell Snare, a miser's Dismember, etc. Scavenging Ooze is also fantastic if you get into the long game, and I've had varying results with Jace's Phantasm. Based on your 75, figure out the best sideboard configuration for being on the play and the draw. Even so, the match might largely be decided by who won the die roll for game 1.

Very good points. How well your deck plays out depends on so many factors: metagame, luck, sideboard, amongst many other things that you've mentioned.

In regards to the mirror, I've seen some builds with hidden gibbons in the sideboard. A 4/4 creature survives bolt, beats fast, and one mana. Against combo decks it's a very fast clock too.

catmint
09-19-2012, 01:21 PM
Good points wmc8. Disagree slightly. Stifle is a very good anti control card. MAna-screw (sometimes a good play) miracle triggers, EE, Batterskull come into play, snapcaster com into play,... It is also great in the mirror which you correctly see as an important matchup where any little edge can help with the luck & skill factor.

wcm8
09-19-2012, 01:35 PM
Good points wmc8. Disagree slightly. Stifle is a very good anti control card. MAna-screw (sometimes a good play) miracle triggers, EE, Batterskull come into play, snapcaster com into play,... It is also great in the mirror which you correctly see as an important matchup where any little edge can help with the luck & skill factor.

Well, Stifle is definitely one of those high-risk, high-reward type cards. Sometimes you can mana screw an opponent with it, but just as often they can just play out duals and basics from their hand. Once the first few land drops have been achieved, it becomes mostly ineffectual in that regard.

It's also pretty awkward on the draw, and there are some decks that don't really have many good targets for it. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of the card, but its usefulness is very situational and meta-dependent -- much like Spell Snare to some extent. So I think when people go back and forth on that card's power level, what they really need to consider is their local metagame. If you have a significant combo presence, I would definitely roll with Stifle. Against a more aggro/mid-rangey field, I'd probably opt for something else.

Either way, you don't have control over your pairings. While you might have built the deck properly for the field as a whole that day, your pairingsr might be the complete opposite. It's very frustrating at times.

catmint
09-19-2012, 04:14 PM
Sure.. There are some decks/situations where Stifle is not doing a lot and it has to be sided out. But I am not unhappy against control to have a stifle in hand even if they have 4+ lands. Manascrew in this matchup is the exception - not the rule. Stifle is so often the game deciding play: Will EE kill my creatures? Can they miracle Entreat/Terminus? Will Batterskull get into play with a token?. Will deed get cracked?...

Sure - somehow a meta call, but if I prepare for an unkown tournament I look at the popular decks and pack my stifles.

HIgh-Risk / High reward is relative.
I risk of having a dead card to shuffle back or pitch sometimes, for the reward of randomly winning with screw or in one of the matchups where it is one of the best card. If I go with Thought-Scour I have no risk, but I can be sure to get only marginal value out my 1 mana spent.

xfxf
09-20-2012, 08:40 AM
I think I'd always pack Stifle rather than Thought Scour as most American lists tend to do. In almost all matchups it works into your Tempo plan and against most decks there a ton of versatile uses which really dagger opponent's plays. Thought Scour to me is a terrible cantrip, at an equal footing with Stifle on negating Miracles and mainly useful for growing Mongoose. I really can't understand how filling your graveyard with cards you might need just to grow Mongoose can be benefitial. I'd rather fill my graveyard with Fetchland, Stifle and Chain Lightning so that while it fills up, the cards are actually doing something for me.

Also since we play 4 Daze, 3-4 Spell Pierce with 4 Wastelands the most intuitive complement to this strategy is Stifle. I just don't know what else would fit the deck so well in those slots.

Yes, they do come out in the post-board games a lot but boarding allows this deck to really focus on a particular strength and at that point you may forgo the versatility of Stifle.

apistat_commander
09-20-2012, 09:45 AM
I think I'd always pack Stifle rather than Thought Scour as most American lists tend to do. In almost all matchups it works into your Tempo plan and against most decks there a ton of versatile uses which really dagger opponent's plays. Thought Scour to me is a terrible cantrip, at an equal footing with Stifle on negating Miracles and mainly useful for growing Mongoose. I really can't understand how filling your graveyard with cards you might need just to grow Mongoose can be benefitial. I'd rather fill my graveyard with Fetchland, Stifle and Chain Lightning so that while it fills up, the cards are actually doing something for me.

I have been thoroughly unimpressed with Thought Scour. I was testing the other day and had the following situation come up.

Opp: Crack fetch.
Me: Stifle.
Opp: Thought Scour targeting himself. Mills Daze and Force. Damn.

I can see using Scour to feed Grim Lavamancers, but Geese typically grow quickly enough as it is. Sure they aren't that great against combo, but combo mostly comes down to drawing enough disruption for that critical turn. Maybe with Dryad Militant and Deathrite Shaman seeing play we will need an alternative way to fill the yard but at that point you might want to just look into other creatures.

Rekk
09-20-2012, 09:57 AM
I. I really can't understand how filling your graveyard with cards you might need just to grow Mongoose can be benefitial.

You can't look at cards you put in the graveyard as "cards you might need" they don't exist they were milled. those same cards could have very well just been the cards on the bottom of your library. It does change the math of course, and maybe once in awhile might mill your only out, but at the same token you can't say wew im glad i milled those lands i was gonna draw.

xfxf
09-20-2012, 10:23 AM
I don't quite agree. Let me give you this example. I play a good deal of burn and often use it straight to the face for the final points of damage. So there are quite a number of times when I fire a Ponder just to find that burn spell and do it with confidence because of my chances. What if you mill 2 burn spells while looking for one? I'd rather spells to be in my library so that when I Ponder/Brainstorm to find them they are there.

Another one. Think about the grindy games where the board clogs up with creatures and you're hoping to break through. You know you milled 2 Goyfs at some point in the game. You know if your single Goyf dies your chances of backing up the team will diminish to nothing. I'd rather my cards to stay in my library so I'll still have the chance to draw/find them.

Ziveeman
09-20-2012, 11:12 AM
If you want the cantrip action of Thought Scour but don't want to mill cards (and you're not playing Grim Lavamancer and Nimble Mongoose), play Gitaxian Probe. Seriously, it's not that bad of a card. The perfect information is nice and you don't need to run 19 land (I can even see myself going down to 17). Brainstorms get better and Stifles get better (since you can still cantrip turn one and hold it up).

xfxf
09-20-2012, 11:18 AM
I don't want the cantrip action of Thought Scour, I don't want any action of Though Scour. I'm happy with my Ponders, Brainstorms and Stifles.

Ziveeman
09-20-2012, 11:25 AM
What's your list looking like? I ran all three plus I had room for two Thought Scours, so I guess I'm just curious what Thought Scour *would* be replacing.

wcm8
09-20-2012, 11:34 AM
Against some decks, Nimble Mongoose is the best threat since they have very few ways to answer it. With Thought Scour, it's easier to get Goose into 3/3 mode as early as turn 3, sometimes even turn 2 -- this can often make the difference between winning a damage race or losing to their higher CMC bombs. It's also useful against control decks to be able to cantrip at the end of their turn (especially if you needed to leave Spell Snare mana up for a potential Counterbalance or Stoneforge Mystic), and helps with making Ponder better without needing to crack fetchlands. Finally, if you are playing some number of Life from the Loam, it either helps you find it faster or gives you more targets when you cast it.

I don't think the card is essential, but it does serve a strategic purpose in certain builds.

cheerios
09-20-2012, 11:35 AM
What's the best plan vs miracles? It seems like a horrible matchup especially post board. I encountered one opponent who even sided in relics of progenitus too prevent me from growing nimble and goyf. I'm debating if I should add sulfuric vortex or not. It looks too narrow for me. Any strategies/tips in combating miracles? By the way I'm running the stifle build.

xfxf
09-20-2012, 11:36 AM
@Ziveeman
I'm still using the same list for a couple of months (and posted here before). But since you asked here it is again. I believe my maindeck is nicely tuned for the aggressive tempo play while also retaining enough distruption against combo in G1. In G2, G3 I have good options to go anti-combo as well.

4 Delver
4 Mongoose
4 Goyf

4 Stifle
4 Daze
3 Pierce
3 FoW

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Forked Bolt
2 Chain Lightning

18 Lands

SB:
1 FoW
1 Flusterstorm (coming in against combo as the 4th pierce, so in that case better than pierce)
2 REB
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Submerge
2 Sulfur Elemental

I don't find the extra burn unnecessary because when there are no creatures around to burn they can go to the face to keep the clock up while also growing Mongoose. I also don't find the amount of cantrips low as the redundancy in the deck helps me find the cards enough when I need them. That's why I'd never want to play Thought Scour. I want to make efficient use of every card, and the top 3 cards of my library rather than throwing them away.

wcm8
09-20-2012, 11:40 AM
What's the best plan vs miracles? It seems like a horrible matchup especially post board. I encountered one opponent who even sided in relics of progenitus too prevent me from growing nimble and goyf. I'm debating if I should add sulfuric vortex or not. It looks too narrow for me. Any strategies/tips in combating miracles? By the way I'm running the stifle build.

You answered your own question: Sulfuric Vortex. If you can get just a few hits in with your creatures and resolve a Bolt or two, this card seals the deal. If you are expecting a lot of control decks, I would play 2-3 in the sideboard.

cheerios
09-20-2012, 12:01 PM
You answered your own question: Sulfuric Vortex. If you can get just a few hits in with your creatures and resolve a Bolt or two, this card seals the deal. If you are expecting a lot of control decks, I would play 2-3 in the sideboard.

Thanks, I was choosing between sulfuric vortex or envelop for my 2 sb flex slots. Envelop can hit a wider array of decks but was just subpar vs miracles. Although it was great to have a hard counter sometimes.

Sturtzilla
09-20-2012, 12:58 PM
Thanks, I was choosing between sulfuric vortex or envelop for my 2 sb flex slots. Envelop can hit a wider array of decks but was just subpar vs miracles. Although it was great to have a hard counter sometimes.

Ummm? Envelop hits both Miracle cards we worry about, i.e. Terminus and Entreat the Angels. It stone cold counters them, none of this pay :1: or :2: nonsense. I fail to see how a :u: hard counter for their 5-8 biggest impact spells is "subpar." The only other things you really need to worry about are Jace and Counter-Top lock. Jace isn't that scary, if you manged to get a presence on board and keep them from Terminusing. So I am not sure what you are talking about.

Vortex does really shine in the match up, though. They generally durdle around for multiple turns. So sticking it can just get there, as they likely fetch a few more times than we do in addition to a few hits and/or pieces of burn.

wcm8
09-20-2012, 01:13 PM
Against UW decks, you are the beat down. I think Envelop is far too reactive in this matchup. Sulfuric Vortex is pretty much an auto-win card and plays into your aggressive plan, and as a three-drop is more likely to resolve through an established lock.

With the possibility of UW decks adopting Rest in Peace and/or Supreme Verdict once RtR is legal, having a sustainable threat that ignores those cards might be necessarry to close out games.

alekill
09-20-2012, 01:29 PM
Against miracles stifle and envelop are your game winners. Your soft counters should be able to stop jace and countertop while you save your hard counters for the actual miracle cards.

Besides that just lay a goose down and maybe one more creature depending on how many threats you have. If they do manage to terminus just play another creature. Also don't be afraid to sacrifice a goyf to change the top card to a two so that you can resolve a goose.

xfxf
09-20-2012, 01:33 PM
Regarding RIP, I don't know if they will adopt but certainly a lot of people will try and brew with it. I'm sure there'll be people sideboarding it, some people coming up with RIP-Energy Field combos etc. etc. If that trend doesn't get sidetracked quickly it can and will negatively effect RUG. I agree to the need of finding a sustainable threat under prevalent graveyard hate. I also think that, whether it's good or bad, there'll be people playing Dryad Militants and that will also put a cap to the size Goyf can grow and the speed Goose can get threshold. The deck will need to adapt and evolve.

Borealis
09-20-2012, 04:33 PM
I don't want the cantrip action of Thought Scour, I don't want any action of Though Scour. I'm happy with my Ponders, Brainstorms and Stifles.

So I guess you don't like Thought Scour, huh?

As one of those that do run the card, I can say I absolutely like the flexibility of the Instant-speed Mill/draw. Usually, I'm quite happy to turn a 1/1 Goose into a 3/3 in the early turns, or fatten up a Goyf midcombat, and that's the primary reason I run Scour. But I've also Scoured away many lands and/or jank after a Brainstorm/Ponder with no shuffle effect. It's also a great way to mess with your opponent, if you feel you can get a read on their Brainstorming situations. It's nothing special, but it also rewards clever plays better than you might think.

Since you run Stifle and extra Burn spells (5!), you probably reach threshold a little faster than some builds. For me, I hate 1/1 Mongooses, so I'd rather hit 7 cards ASAP. Against cards like Relic (but not RiP! Oh Noes!), it can help you refill the yard in the midgame better than anything else.

I'm still not on Stifle yet, but I do think it's pretty good. I met a kid last weekend who was only running 2-3, which is something I could get behind. I'd cut maybe a FoW and a Scour, and mayyybe a Daze or Pierce, to try and squeeze in a few Stifles. 2 actually seems like a good number for me, as it's easy to fit in and swap out. Running less than the playset may seem wrong, but it makes your opponent have to play around more cards, while still giving you the occasional blowout play.

Meantime, I'm still digging Thought Scour. (get it...? :laugh:)

As for RiP and Dryad Militant, etc.... I'm not too worried. RiP is GOOD, really good, but it doesn't draw a card, costs more, and requires white. Yes decks will run it, but mostly for Dredge, and less so for us. Cantripping is part of why Relic is so good against us, and most control players will still prefer Relic, especially for the maindeck. RiP is also easier to spell pierce. Also, see Delver of Secrets. Sure it slows us down, but is that worth the risk of a turn 2 flipped Delver? RiP looks pretty bad in that situation.

I feel bad for Dredge/Reanimate though.... as if Leyline, Cage, and Surgical weren't enough hate as of late....

Militant kinda sucks for us, but not that much. It's doubtful they'll stop all the spells you cast with it, and it's not a particularly great card against us outside of the effect. If they play this on turn 1, sweet, it's not a Hierarch or Mom. Savannah Lions hasn't been great in Legacy for years now, and if it's really a Thorn in your Paw, you can just Bolt it.

xfxf
09-20-2012, 04:41 PM
Actually I'm running 9! burn spells :D I just like the sequencing with this build. Sometimes you get a hand with fetch, goose, stifle and chain lightning. You play a fetch, opp fetches and you stifle it. On your next turn you topdeck another land (or brainstorm into one) cast chain lightning, cast goose and you're off to an awfully good start with a good way towards growing the goose. I understand it's totally style dependent but the way I see it is that this deck just demands to be played this way :)

Borealis
09-20-2012, 05:46 PM
Right, 9 total burn spells. By 5 burn spells, I meant 5 additional, since 4 Bolts is an auto-include for most. I run 7, with 2x Chain and 1x Fire/ice as my "flexburn". 9 is a whole bunch.

The only problems with that sequence you listed is this:

1) You've burned 5 or so cards doing this, and all you have to show for it is a 1/1 Mongoose, with maybe 3 cards in hand (depending on play/draw/brainstorm).
2) Maybe you didn't have a target for Chain Lightning or were better off saving it for something later on. Same could be true for Stifle.
3) You've played out your hand and it's only turn 2. You've burned 2 fetchlands and maybe a Brainstorm to get 5/7ths of the way to Thresh. What if they just Terminus you in a turn or 2?

In general, it's rare that we should play games out this fast in my opinion. Wasting spells is how we lose. Sometimes, this will happen, and it will be the best line. Often though, we are holding back, waiting for our opponent to try something before responding.

While I agree that sometimes you get just enough fetches/cantrips/burn/disruption early on to fill the yard up fast, it doesn't always happen. In the Control and Combo matches, you are most likely to need to hold back on spells and fetch/cantrip carefully. Those are also the matches where Goose needs to get BIG and ASAP. That's why I like Thought Scour. It basically adds 3 cards to your yard at the cost of U. That would normally cost you at least 1 card and 2 fetches, or a number of cards. Not to mention the fact that, after holding up Pierce or Stifle or Burn, you can cycle it EOT to maximize your mana if they don't cast anything relevant. That, combined with the synergy with Brainstorm and Ponder (and Delver blind flips too!), combined with the corner cases such as Milling away Miracles, Tops, and Submerged Fatties, makes me really enjoy playing with Scour.

As you said though, it's preference. You have a slightly more U/R plan, while I'm still favoring a bit more patience and timing. Thought Scour is all about timing. I like having at least 2 in the deck, right now I'm running 3. But I don't feel I need to choose it over anything else personally. If I wanted to fit in Stifles, I easily could.

I will say though, I'm tempted to cut 1 Scour for a singleton Stifle, just to troll people this weekend.

Sturtzilla
09-21-2012, 08:43 AM
Against UW decks, you are the beat down. I think Envelop is far too reactive in this matchup. Sulfuric Vortex is pretty much an auto-win card and plays into your aggressive plan, and as a three-drop is more likely to resolve through an established lock.

There is no doubt that RUG is the beatdown when matched against UWx Stoneblade or UW Miracles. My question for you is as follows, when does being the beatdown not allow us to leave up :u:? I think most of the time this is something we do anyway to make our opponents play around all of our answers. Against U/W Miracles, Envelop is great as it is a hard counter for the scariest things the deck does priced at the same cost of the other counters (Pierce, Snare) in our deck. I know in my build, I don't want my 2 Forked Bolts after board. So I take those out in addition to a few pieces of counter magic. Pending if I am on the Play or Draw, I mitagate my counter package, with Envelop, REB, and Pyroblast. I do also fully endorse Sulfuric Vortex in this match up. The Miracles player is probably going to have to durdle around for a good bit before doing much. So sticking a Vortex is many times game over.



With the possibility of UW decks adopting Rest in Peace and/or Supreme Verdict once RtR is legal, having a sustainable threat that ignores those cards might be necessarry to close out games.


(but not RiP! Oh Noes!)

On the topic of new dangers for this deck are Rest in Peace, Supreme Verdict, and Dryad Militant.

As I see it, Rest in peace is likely not that terrible for us. I would say that because we are already running Spell Pierce and some people are still using a few Spell Snares. These spells will make it hard for opponents to realistically stick RiP to make it worthwhile. I mean that by the time an opponent plays around SP and SS, they have likely already taken a few hits from graveyard buffed bro. It appears that it will be a beating though if it manages to resolve.

Supreme Verdict is pretty scary. The only real ways we have to fight this new threat are keeping our opponent off of four mana and playing smart. So that means aggressively Stifling fetches and Wastelanding when possible. This is doable, but there will be hands where our opponents will be able to just play basics and save the duals until they need to Verdict. In these situations you will need to prioritize threats and bait out the board wipes. This brings me back to wcm8's thought about creatures that don't care about Verdict. Did you have any thoughts on that already? What come to my mind are dudes that can regen (Troll Ascetic or Thrun, the Last Troll or come back from the graveyard... are there any of these that are good enough?

Finally, Dryad Militant... not really too scary. As stated it is a Savannah Lions. If you opponent plays this over a Mom or a Hierarch you aren't too bad off. If it gets to be annoying just burn it or fly over for more damage with flipped Delvers.

xfxf
09-21-2012, 09:49 AM
Borealis, I don't play that aggressive it was just a hypotethical example. I like holding on to my burn spells. Against aggro decks I definitely hold on to them. Against combo and control decks if I'm not applying enough pressure in the early turns, the mongoose isn't flipping etc. I can fire a Chain Lightning so that 3-4 damage a turn would be maintained and the opp will know the pressure is on. Other times if my clock is good and well I hold onto them to finish the game a turn early. Also sometimes if I don't manage to get an early pressure I focus on daggering people's manabases, countering stuff etc. Then when you finally a mange to stick a threat you can come out of the gates really fast with the additional burn and mongoose will already have threshold by then.

My main argument wasn't for playing extra burn but for playing Stifle btw. I don't know how it turned into this :)

apistat_commander
09-21-2012, 11:58 AM
So my local meta is mostly mid-range (Nic Fit, Maverick), control (Stoneblade, Lands, Miracles), and jank (Scapeshift, affinity, etc.). There is no combo to speak of and aggro is fairly limited. Any suggestions for a good maindeck configuration for a meta like mine? I play an 18 land/Stifle build and I have a really hard time containing people to the early game to keep my Dazes and Spell Pierces relevant. Many games they will just hit a couple of basic land drops and I am stuck with dead cards in hand or my countermagic just gets overwhelmed with threat after threat (this might be me misplaying however).

Would it be better to become more aggressive and add additional burn to close out the game quickly? Should I add an extra land and some late game cards (Ooze, GSZ, Library) to help me out if the game goes long? Should I just play another deck or is my build fine and I just need to play tighter?

Edit: Here is my current list:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt

4 Ponder
2 Forked Bolt

1 Sylvan Library

8 Fetch
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

SB:
2 Pyroblast
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Pithing Needle
4 Submerge
2 Rough//Tumble
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Surgical Extraction

jimirynk
09-22-2012, 03:59 PM
My current list the loam comes and goes in my board but I only ever really want it for the mirror. I am back to loving 4 goyf 0 Ooze I just really want to be able to function off as little lands as possible.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Pierce
2 Thought Scour
2 Forked Bolt
1 Dismember
1 Flusterstorm

8 Fetch
3 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

SB:
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Null Rod
1 Cursed Totem
1 Sylvan library
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Submerge
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast

Grizzly_Bear
09-23-2012, 03:30 PM
So, Todd Andersson just won SCG Invitational with a RUG list. Well done I guess.
However, right after the final game was over, the idiot commentators go all NUTS over how good the deck is and bla bla bla.

Specifically:
"One of the great innovations that Todd Andersson brought to the deck, is that he is playing 4 stifle and 4 wasteland to completeley shut down his opponents mana..."
/Adrian Sullivan

Really?!
There should be some kind of punishment for saying stupid ignorant shit like that on the interwebs.

xfxf
09-23-2012, 03:55 PM
Considering most guys in the SCG circuit doesn't play Stifle and benefit from the free tempo wins acquired by mana denial, it could have come as an innovation :)

catmint
09-23-2012, 05:04 PM
LOL...Pretty pathetic. Calling it an innovation is just stupid.. but even if an innovation it was Ziveeman who was successful with Stifle 1 week before right? :)

JDK
09-23-2012, 06:26 PM
Good Legacy commentators are rare, unfortunately. I always cry when they talk about Brainstorm (fucking stop with the "best kind of brainstorm"-bullshit) or High Tide.

They also freaked out, when Todd wasted his own land in order to achieve threshold and get a faster clock. I mean he really played super tight in the first game, but in the second (or was it the third?) game it was just something you should have seen (or even done yourself) from time to time.

The only thing you can trust on the stream are Adrian Sullivan's calculations on tie breakers.