[Deck] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh) [Archive] - Page 14

Mark Sun

09-24-2012, 02:14 PM

Was at Atlanta this weekend so obviously didn't see any commentary, but I wouldn't doubt Adrian's knowledge on the subject, Unsummon's account seems more likely. Stifle is pretty good right now, though.

I tried some cute tricks for the Invitational this weekend and hated it (1-3 record to start in Legacy...). Went back to the basics and played something similar to the Gen Con 75.

List here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=49690

I tried a Cephalid Coliseum in the Fire//Ice slot for the Legacy Challenge and I never drew it, but didn't want to risk that in the main event Sunday. Went 3-1 in the Challenge despite that with my only loss a hilarious one against Esperblade.

Overall finished 6-2-1 in the main event (ID'ing last round for T32, no reason to be playing it out as we both couldn't make it and everyone likes $100).

R1) 2-1 Win, High Tide. Match was crazy good, I thought he was going off t4 so I held back a Delver in my hand in case he goes for it so if I lose the counter war I can still float the mana. It backfires when he passes the turn back and he wins at 1 life. g2/g3, I board in the 4 extra counters and it all came down to huge counter wars on the turn he goes off.

R2) 2-1 Win, Mirror. Mana denial and Geese, pretty much. He out-Goyfs me in g2 (my list only plays 3) and has the 1-of Dismember for mine, so that wasn't a fun fight. g3 he goes for t1 Wasteland after I play Mongoose, well I have 2 more lands in hand and I develop a lot faster than he does.

R3) 2-0 Win, Maverick. Kept a bad hand (put him on Miracles) with double Spell Pierce FoW. He doesn't have any early plays and is stuck on two lands, so the Pierces protect my Goyf and I have another by the time he lands Knight. I Ponder into a second burn spell to finish him off... like a boss. G2 he plays Mom instead of Zenith, and I have to burn a Submerge on it. It winds up being his only land, so that changes a lot. I ride a Delver to victory.

R4) 2-0 Win, Miracles (hukstor). t1 Mongoose into devoting all my resources to protect it. Drew terribly but a Brainstorm off the top turns it into an insane hand. I have the burn to finish it off. g2 I follow a similar plan, sealing the deal with Vortex at the end. Adam didn't draw particularly well, as funny as it was next round he crushed RUG and I got crushed by Miracles...

R5) 0-2 Loss, Miracles (Hetrick). Yeah. I lose the roll and he leads off with an Island. I draw and the hand is skeptical, and needs to develop. I opt to go for Volcanic, Ponder instead of Tropical, Mongoose, to hit what I'm playing. He jams the Counterbalance on t2 and I don't have an answer. g2 I'm stuck on no red sources and by the time I draw my second land on turn 10+, it's too late.

R6) 2-0 Win, Maverick. Super nice guy, was a local I believe. Game was pretty intense in g1 when I had to Stifle a Knight activation for Maze and then peel a Wasteland two turns later to seal the deal. We both had dueling Sylvan Libraries in g2 and I got to take advantage of that + all the cantrips to end the game casting all 4 Submerges and a Rough/Tumble. Sideboard cards are excellent.

R7) 1-2 Loss, Omni-Tell. Win g1, see the mana base and know what it is. He doesn't cast anything. g2 we had an awkward judge call that I should have appealed, but I didn't and the ruling (and resulting game state) basically cost me the game. I won't go into detail about it much beyond that. Not happy about it, and in g3 I open with a weak soft-counter hand that doesn't do anything, and he draws some Sol Lands, so that's the end of it there. Needed to go outside after that one.

R8) 2-0 Win, Goblins (Andrew Cavanaugh). Revenge for Friday's beatings, sorta. He rolls an 11 to start the game, so instead of just conceding the roll, I go for it and hit... 12! g1 we both have slow starts with Nimble Mongoose on my side and slow development on his side. I get a bunch of filler in my hand (extra lands, Spell Pierces), but somehow manage to draw the big guy just in time to stave off an attack, and a Delver goes under the bus so the 4/5 and 3/3 can get the dirty work done. g2 I open on a hand without an answer to t1 Lackey, but everything including a Rough/Tumble. He does have the Lackey opener, and t2 he plays a fetchland main phase. I gamble on him not having a Ringleader and Stifle the fetchland. He lays a Chieftain, to which I fetch on my turn and show him the Rough/Tumble, up on lands with the 2 for 1. That advantage allows me to get ahead enough to win.

R9) ID, Esper. Another local and we ID but play anyways, which was good entertainment for everyone since we got to play loose and have some real fun on the day. Great way to end things, especially taking hope $100 each.

I think the Miracles matchup needs a lot of help still, just not sure if it's more Vortexes, more creatures, or a different approach altogether. Open to ideas.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

09-24-2012, 02:50 PM

I think the Miracles matchup needs a lot of help still, just not sure if it's more Vortexes, more creatures, or a different approach altogether. Open to ideas.

Trygon Predator.

Sturtzilla

09-24-2012, 02:52 PM

Specifically:
"One of the great innovations that Todd Andersson brought to the deck, is that he is playing 4 stifle and 4 wasteland to completeley shut down his opponents mana..."
/Adrian Sullivan

Good Legacy commentators are rare, unfortunately. I always cry when they talk about Brainstorm (fucking stop with the "best kind of brainstorm"-bullshit)

I generally find that Adrian's analysis of lines of play during games is pretty decent. However, Legacy is such a tough format that many times the commentators don't really know what is going on... let's be real about this, many of them rarely play the format. I agree with the "Best Brainstorm" comment. I think it can be extended to the "If you are just joining us, I am X and this is Y, and we are at the SCG Z event." They would say that tagline multiple times during the same game of a match even. It always seemed this weekend like that was all they were talking about. When that type of stuff starts to happen, I just turn the sound off and put some music on.

wcm8

09-24-2012, 03:39 PM

I think the Miracles matchup needs a lot of help still, just not sure if it's more Vortexes, more creatures, or a different approach altogether. Open to ideas.

It's going to sound incredibly loose, and maybe it is, but what about fitting in an Underground Sea (or two) and adding some number of Abrupt Decay into the sideboard? You'd also get access to discard to go along with your taxing counters. These UWx control decks don't tend to play Wasteland either, making your Sea a safe target. Abrupt Decay has utility in other matchups as well.

Edit: To make room, you could try running Underground Sea as your 19th land and/or have it take the place of a Wasteland for up to 2 seas. The majority of combo and control decks have some resiliency to Wasteland anyways, and against some decks you'd rather have an additional Blue source instead of Wasteland -- so you're not giving up too much power for the additional utility options. Alternatively, you could just burn a sideboard slot for the Sea if you wanted the main deck to remain more consistent. Abrupt Decay, Thoughtseize, and possibly some other black cards (e.g. Dread of Night/Massacre, Diabolic Edict, Dark Confidant, etc.) could make an appearance to strengthen the deck even further against certain strategies.

sdematt

09-24-2012, 05:22 PM

I think that's a possibility, but I'm not sure it's the way to go.

As for the Snare/Pierce split that Todd was running, I think this was due to wanting to be able to hard-counter a Counterbalance, even if it was on turn 5+ when it would have been out of Spell Pierce range.

-Matt

JDK

09-24-2012, 05:28 PM

I generally find that Adrian's analysis of lines of play during games is pretty decent. However, Legacy is such a tough format that many times the commentators don't really know what is going on... let's be real about this, many of them rarely play the format. I agree with the "Best Brainstorm" comment. I think it can be extended to the "If you are just joining us, I am X and this is Y, and we are at the SCG Z event." They would say that tagline multiple times during the same game of a match even. It always seemed this weekend like that was all they were talking about. When that type of stuff starts to happen, I just turn the sound off and put some music on.

So true. When they go "If you are just joining us, I am X and this is Y, and we are at the SCG Z event." I am like "I CAN READ ALL OF THIS SHIT ON THE SCREEN!".
As long as JVL's and Glenn Jones' fake laughter isn't on the stream, I don't mute them, because I want to know what happens when there are judge calls etc.

Back to Canadian though:

@Mark
How has Envelop performed?

Mark Sun

09-25-2012, 10:52 AM

Trygon Predator.

I've thought about it before, but I don't think it should be an StP target. They will overload on StP effects postboard, you want a bomb that you theoretically can resolve that they would be unprepared for. Thrun has come up a few times, if they exhaust their Termini on your Mongeese, for example. Trygon would be ideal if we could protect it as well, but takes too long to set up.

It's going to sound incredibly loose, and maybe it is, but what about fitting in an Underground Sea (or two) and adding some number of Abrupt Decay into the sideboard? You'd also get access to discard to go along with your taxing counters. These UWx control decks don't tend to play Wasteland either, making your Sea a safe target. Abrupt Decay has utility in other matchups as well.

Edit: To make room, you could try running Underground Sea as your 19th land and/or have it take the place of a Wasteland for up to 2 seas. The majority of combo and control decks have some resiliency to Wasteland anyways, and against some decks you'd rather have an additional Blue source instead of Wasteland -- so you're not giving up too much power for the additional utility options. Alternatively, you could just burn a sideboard slot for the Sea if you wanted the main deck to remain more consistent. Abrupt Decay, Thoughtseize, and possibly some other black cards (e.g. Dread of Night/Massacre, Diabolic Edict, Dark Confidant, etc.) could make an appearance to strengthen the deck even further against certain strategies.

For me if I were to add a fourth color it would have to mean taking Wasteland out. That said, the question here really becomes would I trade 4 Wasteland and some amount of Daze for discard and better disruption? Possibly. More (color producing) lands would be useful in the mirror and a matchup like this. But you still want to slow down opponent board development. It's an interesting idea. I would play 4 City of Brass in that case with the necessary fetchlands/duals.

That said, rotation might solve the issue itself because of Abrupt Decay, since it removes the Counterbalance engine and can answer an early Delver. That power level might change some things.

@Mark
How has Envelop performed?

It's still a good option that I don't mind bringing in for a couple of matches beyond just Miracles/Combo. I would still want it going forward if the metagame stays similar to what it was this weekend. It's also a good option against Elves (counters GSZ/Glimpse) and B/x type decks. I even boarded it against B/R Goblins when I knew he had multiples of Perish in the SB. Instead, I'd like a 3rd REB/Pyroblast in the sideboard where the Flusterstorm was. That card was fairly underwhelming the entire weekend.

xfxf

09-25-2012, 11:01 AM

Mark, I agree that a third REB in the board would be good against Miracles but in that match-up I don't what more we can do other than playing threats one by one, Stifling their Miracle triggers and hoping to ride Mongoose to victory. With RtR I'm still worried that the widespread maindeck gy hate (not to hate on us specifically but due to their utilities and popularity. I mean cards like Dryad Militant, RiP and Deathrite Shaman) can negatively effect this deck going forward. Abrupt Decay will affect Miracles to an extent yes, but we will also be affected. Currently I'm considering tempo options in other colors to ride that wave of increased gy hate period smoothly. Both Death's Shadow decks and UW Delver decks seem like strong options.

Borealis

09-25-2012, 11:35 AM

I haven't tested Envelop, but I tend to think Mark is right. In general, I'd rather just have REB or Flusterstorm in that slot, unless my meta is truly infested with U/W. Even then, I think I'd start adding Spell Snares to the maindeck first.

I think Sulfuric Vortex is still the bees' knees in that match. I've also been trying out 1-2 Surgicals to try and tag their Termini, but I can't say that plan is the greatest. It's nice when you get it early, but bad otherwise.

As for the Black Splash, I think at that point you just go straight BUG. 4 colors is asking for trouble, and if you cut Wasteland it will have a bigger impact on the deck's functionality that gaining a couple answers to Control. BUG Thresh could definitely be a viable deck in the right meta though, and I'm considering giving it a whirl.

that0neguy

09-25-2012, 02:22 PM

I don't think we care about Abrupt Decay enough to run it as a 4x. It's a great way to deal with counterbalance, or a really large knight of the Relequary, but for almost every other threat, I think we just want Ghastly demise in black.

I also feel like we don't nessacarilly want to straight port the creatures from RUG. Loosing red means losing burn, which means losing speed. I think BUG needs to be grindier than RUG to be successful.

This is what I was thinking:BUG Delver

4 Delver
4 Goyf
4 Dark Condifant
2 Tombstalker

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Hymn
3 IoK/Duress/Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Gastly Demise
1 Pernicious deed

4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
7 fetch

Tombstalker + Bob seems a bit risky, but I think Tombstalker is what the deck really needs as a finisher. But you also have a couple ways to manipulate the library. Tombstalker means no Mongoose, I think you are probably removing too high of a volume of cards. Bob is better for gridier games, and should need to be answered immediately by RUG/Miracles.

I think overall, without Red the deck is a completely different deck though, and probably would be better in the other BUG threads.

catmint

09-25-2012, 03:01 PM

Before things get weird I suggest we discuss Team America in the Team America tempo thread.

Borealis

09-25-2012, 04:53 PM

Yeah, I didn't mean to start a discussion about BUG. I probably shouldn't have posted that list, so apologies there, but it was more for my own reference than anything else. The reason I like it is because it's nearly identical to my current RUG build, but with Discard/Decay over Burn. Yes I realize that's not necessarily a good thing.

EDIT: I cut the list from my above post. No more confusion here!

I guess the real point is, we aren't splashing a 4th color in an 18-land deck. It's hard enough not running out of duals to fetch as it is.

I'll go jabber on the BUG thread for a while now to get those dirty (UNDERGROUND SEA!) mana base thoughts out of my head. :tongue:

lordofthepit

09-26-2012, 05:56 AM

About 6 weeks ago, someone brought fit two copies of Punishing Fire and two copies of Grove of the Burnwillows into this deck. As someone who has had occasional trouble with tribal decks and has a lot of experience playing Rubin Zoo, I tried it out. It was okay, but not great. I went back to Forked Bolts and occasionally Grim Lavamancers.

At the most recent SCG Open, the 3rd place finisher fit 4 Punishing Fire and 3 Grove of the Burnwillows into his deck. This seems pretty nice given the rise of Goblins, Merfolk, and Death and Taxes (and obviously, Maverick being ever present). Plus it's nice gas against Miracles. However, he also took essentially the worst manabase in Legacy and made it worse: 13 "blue" sources, 3 Groves, 3 Wasteland. Inconveniently, in matches against the aforementioned decks where you would want to use Punishing Fire as a control element, you will likely be running into Wastelands, Ports, and even Mangara shenanigans.

Opinions?

wcm8

09-26-2012, 10:19 AM

Opinions?

3-4 Grim Lavamancer (either main or in SB) and possibly some number of Thought Scour for fuel will help you generate long-term card advantage against tribal decks. I would go with this configuration before considering trying to fit Punishing Fire into RUG.

Regarding the black 'splash': I am NOT suggesting the deck become a true 4-color mashup. I am merely considering the possibility of having one or two Underground Seas to help support a few sideboard options to bring in against some troublesome matchups (especially since said matchups don't typically run Wasteland). Abrupt Decay and Thoughtseize could give the deck a bit more resiliency against various control and combo strategies. Thoughtseize in particular may help against the recent spat of combo decks that have figured out ways of beating RUG's taxing counters (e.g. Sol Lands, Overmaster, Flusterstorms of their own, etc.)

Here's a hypothetical list:

19 Lands (3 Tropical, 3 Volcanic, 8 Fetch, 4 Wasteland, 1 Underground)
4 Delver
4 Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 L. Bolt
2 F. Bolt
1 Fire//Ice
3 Spell Pierce
3 Thought Scour

SB:
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
3 Grim Lavamancer
6 Open Slots

I am not suggesting that this is 'the next evolution of RUG' or anything like that, but if you are finding yourself losing to the same strategies over and over that the black splash might help remedy, it's something worth testing. The main deck I posted helps support the Grim Lavamancer plan, although without Stifle it might not be the best against other strategies. Adjust as needed (e.g. cut Thought Scour and 1 of the fetchlands for 4 Stifle, or consider making adjustments to fit in some Spells Snares, a Dismember, Sylvan Library, etc.)

I do think that to beat Goblins and some of the other tribal decks, RUG needs a method of generating card advantage. This can be achieved either through Lavaman or sweepers like Rough//Tumble. The 'trading one-for-one' approach of RUG tends to break down against most tribal decks.

alekill

09-26-2012, 10:19 AM

I think that a combination of forked bolts, lightning bolts, and rough tumbles should be plenty to take on those decks in addition to crushing elves. Just add rough tumbles and/or go to three forked bolts if your meta has a ton of tribal.

Not only is punishing fire mana intensive it also puts a bigger target on our graveyard which is something that already gets attacked semi regularly.

Edit: On lavamancer I've tried him a few times and every single time I was disappointed in him. If you run him you have to run thought scour and even then he will shrink mongooses and goyfs to the size that they can't do anything in the game anymore and your completely reliant on lavamancer.

apistat_commander

09-26-2012, 10:43 AM

Regarding the black 'splash': I am NOT suggesting the deck become a true 4-color mashup. I am merely considering the possibility of having one or two Underground Seas to help support a few sideboard options to bring in against some troublesome matchups (especially since said matchups don't typically run Wasteland). Abrupt Decay and Thoughtseize could give the deck a bit more resiliency against various control and combo strategies. Thoughtseize in particular may help against the recent spat of combo decks that have figured out ways of beating RUG's taxing counters (e.g. Sol Lands, Overmaster, Flusterstorms of their own, etc.)

I don't think that the black splash is worthwhile because it hamstrings your mana. What happens if you open a hand with REB, Thoughtseize, Goose, and a single fetch against Miracles? Hitting all three colors can be challenging enough as it is.

Miracles is a deck that is designed to beat decks like RUG that have curve that is almost entirely one. You can do some sideboarding to improve the MU but at the end of the day you just hope that you don't see the deck too much. Or you can go Todd Anderson's route and run ~9 cards in your SB to beat the deck. However, I don't think it is worth giving up the edge in other MU's just to beat one deck. I think the real trick is trying to find the just the number of sideboard slots to dedicate so that you can maybe push Miracles to a coin-flip and not lose too much ground in other MUs.

As for splashing black to beat Show and Tell variants that doesn't seem necessary to me. We can just run more Flusterstorms/REB/Envelop if they are prevalent in the meta. The problem with those decks is that they lose to themselves enough that you can just beat them on consistency. Sometimes they will get the Show and Tell into Griselbrand/Emmy with triple counter back-up, but they can also drop Omniscience and blank on gas for three turns while you kill them with a Goyf. I just don't think that splashing a 4th color gives the deck significantly better sideboard options especially given the damage it will do to an already fragile manabase.

I want BUG to be good, I really do, but over in the BUG control thread you already summarized why it isn't a very great color combination at the moment (RUG is better for tempo, Mav is better mid-range, UW is better pure control). One of the strongest reasons to go B/G, Pernicious Deed, means that you can't effectively run Countertop or good beaters because you always risk blowing up your own stuff to clear the board. That leaves you winning with Jace/man-lands every game which gives your opponents a ton of time to draw out of whatever hole you put them in. Unless the deck gets some sort of new threat to push it over the top I just don't see it dominating. Entreat is what really brought Countertop back, Terminus is good but without an efficient win-con it is still going to time far too often to make it in a long tournament. As for BUG tempo, which would you rather have if you are trying to close out the game quickly: Lightning Bolt or Thoughtseize? Grixis Delver is almost a deck but it is missing the creatures necessary to make it really good.

Borealis

09-26-2012, 12:08 PM

Splashing a 4th color is just too greedy. You're not casting 6 SB cards off of 1 Underground Sea unless your opponent literally runs no Land Destruction. Most U/W Pilots will still have a Wasteland or 2. Even if they don't, you're still trying to get 3 duals into play to cast everything, which is a challange. Not to mention, fighting Counterbalance (with Abrupt Decay) is only half the battle. You still need to get through Terminus, stop Jace and Batterskull, and avoid Angel Tokens. I don't adding a few black spells is going to change much. I do however, think that BUG is still a fine Shard for Tempo, as well as Grixis, but those are metagame calls.

sdematt

09-26-2012, 12:24 PM

@ Borealist

I think Sulfuric Vortex is still the bees' knees in that match.

I think you've spent too much time in the Junk thread and my says have started to rub off on you :P

-Matt

wcm8

09-26-2012, 01:07 PM

Splashing a 4th color is just too greedy. You're not casting 6 SB cards off of 1 Underground Sea unless your opponent literally runs no Land Destruction.

Exactly. The top-tier combo decks and overwhelming majority of UWx Control decks run literally 0 Wastelands. That's what these sideboard cards would be brought in for. You're not trying to mise them against the mirror or Maverick or anything like that.

Even if they don't, you're still trying to get 3 duals into play to cast everything, which is a challange.

Is it? UWx matchups are typically going to go long, giving you plenty of time to fetch the appropriate colors. You would probably prioritize getting a Tropical first to deploy your creatures, and then go for Volcanic or Underground next based on which disruption you draw into. However, a turn 1 Thoughtseize with Daze can be game breaking. Aside from Red Elemental/Pyroblast, there is really no need to get a red source early on against UWx Control.

Thoughtseize remains relevant longer into the game, past the point where the opponent can pay for Daze and Spell Pierce, allowing you to nab their sand-bagged StP before laying down another threat, or getting rid of the Omniscience/Griselbrand in hand while they try to dig for Show and Tell or vice-versa.

Not to mention, fighting Counterbalance (with Abrupt Decay) is only half the battle. You still need to get through Terminus, stop Jace and Batterskull, and avoid Angel Tokens. I don't adding a few black spells is going to change much.

You are right. Krosan Grip is probably just fine, but the thing Decay does is let you fight through an established Ctop lock and can also be used against other annoying cards (e.g. Ensnaring Bridge, Meekstone, etc.) If UWx Control is the main concern, I think Sulfuric Vortex is really the card you want to be siding in.

This is purely a metagame consideration, and not something I would consider doing unless you think you're going to face off against a fair amount of Miracles/Show and Tell. However, you need to remember that those decks are already adjusting their 75 to beat RUG, and if RUG wants to remain competitive against them it needs to do the same. Splashing for black is just one idea/method, I'm sure there are plenty of other ways within color.

Borealis

09-26-2012, 03:08 PM

OK, a couple responses. First of all, I don't think we need help against most combo decks. If you want to beat combo, just add in more REBs and Flusterstorms, end of story. Discard is another angle of attack, but it's not necessary.

As for U/W, which is the reason I think we even got into the Black splash discussion (Abrupt Decay), I wouldn't assume that they don't run Wastelands. Sure, some of them won't, but saying "the overwhelming majority" don't have Wasteland is asking for trouble.

Now, say U/W doesn't run Wastelands, and your 1 Underground is relatively safe. You're still looking at the possibility of drawing multiple black spells in your opener and not being able to cast them. Or only hitting 1 fetch and 1 waste early on. Do you just fetch Underground for the turn 1 Thoughtseize and then hope to catch a 2nd colored source in time for your other spells, or do you fetch Trop and have a dead discard spell in hand? Are you still trying to cast Vortex? Do you cut all your burn for the black spells? And what cards are you sacrificing in your board to accommodate the Decays and Discard?

Against decks that you don't need black for, Underground becomes a nonbasic Island.

I don't really think Discard is any better than the tools we already have. Sure, it's great turn 1, but late game against control they have plenty of library manipulation to not care about Thoughtseize. As for the Countertop lock, you are better off never letting them resolve it than having to fight it once it's in play. Unless you are holding Abrupt Decay the turn after they assemble the lock, you're likely losing ground anyway. And my point was that Counterbalance isn't the only thing you need to fight in that matchup. They can still just Terminus the shit out of you until you run out of gas, especially when you're cutting burn for discard.

Give it a try though, maybe you'll get some decent results. But you never know who is packing wastelands, and the last thing you want in Legacy is to get caught with your pants down. The whole reason I'm considering trying out BUG Delver is for the strengths you listed, but I can't see myself wanting to cast 6 off-color spells off of 1 extra dual in a 19-land deck. RUG is too consistent for that kind of mess in my opinion. And I do think Sulfuric Vortex is perfectly fine against control anyway. I'd rather just run more of those.

that0neguy

09-26-2012, 04:04 PM

I think if you really want/need to beat counterbalance or combo, BUG is the way to go, probably at the expense of some of the tribal decks, and I suspect that RUG beats BUG, since it is able to out tempo the BUG decks and send excess removal to the face for value.

I think BUG will start to see some more play in the metagame with the rise of miracles, but I think it will be pretty meta dependant. That would be an interesting match to test.

RUG is probably the better overall deck, but BUG could be a metagame scalpel

apistat_commander

09-27-2012, 04:42 PM

Todd Anderson did a write up on his SCG Invitational win (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/24932-Winning-The-SCG-Invitational-In-Atlanta.html). His conclusions:

- Sylvan Library is really good and gives you the edge against control.
- Envelop was good but narrow.
- Krosan Grip sucked and he got to the point where he didn't side it in even against the decks it was there for.
- Sulfuric Vortex interacts poorly with Sylvan Library and you are typically siding out burn in the MUs where you want to bring it in.

His experience with Sulfuric Vortex mirrors my own. Sometimes it can win the game and others it just kills you. I always get the feeling that if one or two things go wrong once I have Vortex out, I lose. Granted, I might not be beating that Lingering Souls/Batterskull anyway, but the Vortex really puts the nail in the coffin. It is a clock, but given how few match-ups you actually want it in, I don't know if it is worth the SB space.

What are people's experiences with the singleton maindeck Library? I know some folks were cutting a Goyf for it which is good against control (Goyf just eats a Swords) but is not as great against a random field as a Goyf or two just trumps many random/scrubby decks. I liked Library at times but I found that I would rather just have the 4th Spell Pierce main so I moved it to the board.

that0neguy

09-27-2012, 06:27 PM

I tried SL main for a few weeks, but never liked it. It's only good when the games go long, or you are willing to draw 2+ cards off it.

Otherwise it seems like a big tempo sink.

I never really liked the idea of Vortex against control. It costs 3, so we are tapping out for it. And it might not even win the game, but we are massively warping our gameplan around it.

Playing around terminus isn't difficult: just play 1 creature at a time - they are all decent clocks on their own. From there the main thing is to not lose to a batterskull or a counterbalance lock.

I think the other better options for the deck if you are fightning a lot of counterbalance would be:
- Go back to NO RUG, with a more varied curve and a few more lands- it worked against MM. With more lands and mana dorks, Krosan Grip starts to look much better.
- Go to BUG with abrupt decay and Tombstalker

Personally, I don't think the MU is terrible enough to go to the extremes of boarding in SV, but if you really want to crush counterbalance - I think those are the way to do it, vs jamming 3 drops into an 18-19 land deck.

Borealis

09-27-2012, 06:47 PM

I'll weigh in on Sylvan Library and Sulfuric Vortex here: I like them both.

I just recently added in a singleton Library in the main, and it's performed well so far. It's one of my favorite magic cards in creation, so that helps my opinion a bit (as does my friend lending me an FBB Korean one), but in general I don't think Sylvan is ever a bad card. Sure, sometimes it's really slow against certain (combo) decks, and sometimes it's just a Mirri's Guile, but is that bad? Not really. In the time that I've been playing with it, I've only Brainstormed it away once. You don't have to cast it, but usually when you do it's pretty baller. The only downside in my eyes is that it's one less spell to flip Delver. I was rockin' 30 for awhile there.

As for Vortex, actual mileage may vary. I've had times where it locked me into a solid win out of a bad position, but I've also had times where it killed me or didn't win the game in time. I've also had hands that involve Vortex + REB as my only counter against a U/W deck sporting a pair of Wastelands. That was awkward. Still, with early pressure and enough disruption, I think a timely Vortex is the best way to crush a control deck. You can play around their sweepers all day, but what if your Mongoose stays 1/1 or your Delver never flips? Sometimes you just need to pressure them constantly, and Vortex does that better than any creature we have access too.

The fact that I run only 1 Library and 1 Vortex makes me laugh at the thought of worrying about their "poor" Synergy together. Silly Todd, tricks are for Kids! Against U/W (which is the reason to run these cards), if I have both in play, I am most likely way ahead. In the rare instance that I can't pay life for cards, I'm still getting card quality for free.

that0neguy

09-28-2012, 12:16 AM

Mark Sun

09-28-2012, 08:43 AM

Personally, when evaluating card decisions I like the think of the core deck principles: (1) Tempo, (2) Efficiency, (3) Card Quality. So, regarding the two enchantments we have in question:

Regarding Library: (1) None, (2) Sometimes, (3) Always

I do agree that it's not a tempo play, but the point is to not try to make it a priority to stick it when you don't have the tempo advantage. The efficiency of the card itself is tied in to what you can get with it. So if you take the non-tempo role (loosely speaking the control role), you are not going to see the card in its optimal context. If you take a low-to-high gear aggressor approach (the aggro control role), the card will shine. That said, in a deck with 8 cantrips and 8 1cc threats, ideally we should have a threat out when we think about playing this card.

Regarding Vortex: (1) Sometimes, (2) Sometimes, (3) None

Seems odd to include this enchantment with a score like that, but it's basically our situational finisher. As the aggressor in a almost all of our matchups, this is the last creature that comes in to finish the job. It has the ability to (still) negate all of their creature removal, and continues the job that Mongoose started doing against UW when Mongoose is compromised (for example when a Terminus gets pushed through). What would push me to cut this card is if we had another potent early threat that doesn't get completely shut off by the multiple-StP plan.

Also, I played 2 Forked Bolt, 1 Fire//Ice last weekend and it was okay against the Souls plan. I'm not saying we don't completely need Sulfur Elemental anymore, but it's needed to compensate when we lean on Vortex, I think.

xfxf

09-28-2012, 11:25 AM

Todd says the card worked for him great against blue control and combo. So to me it sound like a great sideboard card but not a maindeck card as a 1-of. Am I misinterpreting this?

that0neguy

09-28-2012, 04:29 PM

I don't get how it helps against combo. Rule number 1 against combo - don't tap out. I often bring a couple goyf's out against combo for being too mana intensive, and I never want to see more than 1 against them.

My point on vortex is: Is Miracles that bad of a match up that we need to devote a narrow sideboard card against them? What are we giving up out of the sideboard to play that narrow card? And does it slam dunk the match up if we get it?

I guess if you are walking into a very known meta, I could see vortex, but it seems really weak in an unknown meta where i want my SB slots to be as flexible in multiple match ups as possible.

On Sylvan: Through Ponder, Brainstorm, Delver triggers, and fetch lands - we can already almost control most draws throughout the game. I think the filtering is very nominal when compared to giving up a card.

If we were really looking for a singleton to fill that spot to give us a bit of CA and deck manipulation, predict seems like it would be better in many scenarios. We often know our top card and you do not need to tap out. I still don't think I would run predict either, but I just want to point out how mediocre I think the library is for us.

I grindy decks like Maverick, its an all star. But I think in a tempo deck its a loser.

Borealis

09-28-2012, 04:47 PM

I would say that being a Mirri's guile is awful for this deck.

We are a deck based on trading one card for card. The way that we often break parity is by drawing more spells by playing fewer lands. Mirri's guile doesn't replace itself, and requires several turns to make it's self worthwhile. Sylvan's redeeming feature is that you get pay 4 life to draw a card. In matches where you can't afford to pay 4-8 life its a bad draw - even though it technically does something. I really like Sylvan against slower UW decks, but it is so bad in a diverse meta. It is even pretty good against decks like Show and tell if you draw it late, and then pay 12 life over the next 2 cards

In the case of vortex:
If something has a 50/50 shot at helping or harming you, then you lose the opportunity of what you could be running in it's place.

For me at least, it would likely be cutting a submerge or a mind harness that could be used in the Mav/junk match up.

I just don't think it justifies its spot when it could be potentially uncastable, or worse yet it could kill us. All that for a MU that I don't think is that bad without it.

If the meta is going to be filled with UW control, I think Jace, NO, or a different color combination are stronger ways to crush against UW.

The thing that everyone is scared of is the countertop lock right?

I'll clarify:

Sylvan Library has probably never actually been just a Mirri's Guile for me. But yes, I agree, if that's all it's doing most of the time, then it's not worth the investment.

I think, of all the matchups Library is bad against, you are still rarely going to get less than 1 draw off of it, at minimum. Against Burn, you're never paying 4 life. And maybe against Zoo. Beyond that, there are very few times where you won't have an opportunity to use the draw trigger.

Against Control and Combo, it's a house. If that's not your meta, it's fine to skip it. I've been running RUG for months without it and didn't feel a need for it, but the inspiration comes from the rise of Control. If it's purely to fight U/W and Blade, than it can be a SB card.

As for Vortex, while I admitted that it has sometimes been lackluster, I don't think 50/50 is a reasonable description of how often it performs for me. In my experience, it's probably singlehandedly won me more than half the games when I cast it against control. The other half of the time they either managed to counter it or remove it very quickly, but it still bought me time and resources that I was otherwise short on. There were certainly a few games where I still lost to beatdown (skull and/or clique), and I think 1 actual game that Vortex killed me. The times when Vortex wasn't great were probably more my fault than anything else; knowing when and how to play it is important. Since improving with the deck, I've felt much more confident about resolving Vortex into a game-winning board state.

Let's be honest, Jace isn't any easier to cast than Sulfuric Vortex. And I fail to see how he's winning you the game against a deck that can lock out all of your other cards, and also happens to have copies of the same planeswalker to remove yours. Sylvan Library is a more realistic option in this deck, and accomplishes the same effect. Sulfuric Vortex finishes what you started, and is only a liability if you are already running too far behind.

bilb_o, Todd said the card singlehandedly won him the tournament. This was perhaps a bit overstated (he seems to occasionally overstate things), but nonetheless Sylvan Library was his all-star card. He pointed out that he only wanted 1 main, and 1 more in the board, since you don't always want multiples. The reason you want 2 against control is that you want to find one as early as possible, and they will often go out of their way to deal with it, knowing full well the advantage you will gain if it's left unanswered. I've never had a control player let me resolve a Sylvan Library if they could stop me, and that goes back to my Zoo days.

that0neguy

09-30-2012, 04:19 AM

I don't know, I still question libraries effectiveness.

So often it seems like we already have amazing control over the top of our library through delver triggers, fetch lands, ponder, and brainstorm.

Paying 2 mana for a permanent, that might draw 1-2 cards for 4-8 life seems like such a marginal advantage.

If we want some cheap CA for control MUs, why not predict. It seems like we already frequently know and manipulate the top of our deck, why not just skip that part, and skip paying the 4-8 life.

I don't really have any other arguements on Vortex. I think it's a marginal advantage at best, not really worthy of a SB slot, but I think we have argued that one to a draw.

Borealis

10-01-2012, 11:39 AM

apistat_commander

10-01-2012, 12:38 PM

There is a big difference between "draw 2 cards", and "every turn, look at 3 cards and choose how many you want to draw". Predict is situational, and you need to keep mana open to use it at the right time. Library hits the board when you see an opening, and gives you card quality for the rest of the game. If and when you want to draw extra cards, you can. Every turn. Against Miracles, STP and lack of pressure make this effect bonkers. In other matchups, I would call it just plain decent. It's hardly ever bad, and when it is, you have Brainstorm to get rid of it (just like extra Goyfs).

Sylvan Library gives you gas and card selection, every turn, for 2 mana. Ponder/Predict/Brainstorm do that once, for 1-2 mana. Yes, it can definitely be redundant sometimes, but I fail to see how that isn't effective. Sometimes you draw hands that include 3 cantrips, and it's a good hand. With library, you can ditch the extra cantrips and keep all the heat. The best possible things to have against Control and Combo are gas and card selection.

Sit down across from a Miracles player with 1 Sylvan Library and play a bunch of matches. Ask him afterwards if he likes it when you have Sylvan Library. Keep track of how often he counters it. See how many games you win when you land one and when you don't. Then tell me if you don't think it's effective.

We can agree to disagree on Vortex, it's not for everyone, and we have plenty of other SB options to try and fit.

I don't think the issue is whether or not Sylvan Library is good against control. It clearly is and I want to have it in play every game against ponderous, slow decks. I think the better discussion is answering two questions:

- Does Sylvan Library belong in the maindeck and what slot(s) is it occupying? How many do you want between the main and board?

- What slots would Sylvan Library take in the SB?

To attempt to answer my own questions, I think Sylvan Library is worthwhile in the main only if you expect to see a good deal of control and very few fast decks. Against an open field I want at least 6 burn spells so I am not willing to cut there. The 4th Tarmogoyf is necessary for stopping tribal and random jank. The place where it really fits is in a countermagic slot but I don't really believe in dropping below 4 Daze/FoW (if the meta is that lacking in decks you want Daze/FoW against you should just play another deck). It is possibly better than the 4th Spell Pierce, but I appreciate the flexibility of Spell Pierce in both protecting my own threats and stopping my opponents. Granted Spell Pierce isn't very great if your opponent is throwing down Knight of the Reliquaries or something, but that is a tough game one no matter what. Granted I am running a Stifle build so slots are a bit tighter for me.

Right now I am running Library as a 1-of in the sideboard and I am not sure I would want to fit in additional copies. 2 mana is still a lot for this deck and anything with Wastelands makes that much harder to reach. Has anyone tried running Top instead or in addition to Library? A lot of builds were running a singleton Top a couple of months back but that was also when American lists were rocking Snapcaster over Mongoose so I don't know if those results are valuable. People were also boarding into CB/Top which I can't really imagine on 14 colored lands, so there's that.

In the sideboard I think that I would probably rather have Sylvan Library than Sulfuric Vortex simply for reasons of flexibility. Sylvan Library is great against control but can also do work against slower combo and some aggro. Vortex is basically only good against Miracles, Lands, and some builds of Stoneblade. Yes it is a threat that you can likely push through an established Counterbalance lock, but honestly if they establish the soft lock your chances of winning that game have diminished greatly already. Once Vortex is on the board they can devote all of their resources to finding a Clique/Entreat/Snapcaster to beat you to death before it gets them. If you are beating them down in conjunction with Vortex then it is providing some value, but if you can stick and protect a creature against Miracles you are doing pretty well as it is.

Borealis

10-01-2012, 01:31 PM

I don't run Stifle, so fitting Library is easy enough. It was a burn spell before, now I'm down to 6. It's harder to fit Stifle and Spell Pierce and Sylvan, but Todd Anderson did it, so it's not impossible. I only ever cut the 4th Goyf for another creature, usually Ooze. Goyf is far too important.

I think you are both writing off the usefulness of Library against the "Faster" decks. When it's helpful, and the game is grindy, you play it. You might be surprised how good it is against something like Maverick or even Burn. But when you can't afford to tap out, you shuffle it away. It's as simple as that, and it's not like a 1-of is going to clog your hand.

When you resolve Sulfuric Vortex through a counterbalance, that IS your win condition. Sticking and protecting a creature is great and all, but the point is sometimes you can't do that, or you've already have and they still answered it every single time. So you stick and protect Vortex instead, and win. Landing a Vortex into a lategame CounterTop lock is about the only way you're going to recover. What other single card that you can actually force through finishes the game for you? Sylvan is fine in this slot instead, especially if you don't have one maindeck (I prefer only having 1 in the 75), but I like that Vortex is a win condition that can actually end the game quickly. Jace, Library, Krosan Grip, etc. don't have that luxury. I'd rather have a card that wins the match definitively, than a flexible one that just gives me a better shot. Or, both. :)

apistat_commander

10-02-2012, 09:42 AM

When you resolve Sulfuric Vortex through a counterbalance, that IS your win condition. Sticking and protecting a creature is great and all, but the point is sometimes you can't do that, or you've already have and they still answered it every single time. So you stick and protect Vortex instead, and win. Landing a Vortex into a lategame CounterTop lock is about the only way you're going to recover. What other single card that you can actually force through finishes the game for you? Sylvan is fine in this slot instead, especially if you don't have one maindeck (I prefer only having 1 in the 75), but I like that Vortex is a win condition that can actually end the game quickly. Jace, Library, Krosan Grip, etc. don't have that luxury. I'd rather have a card that wins the match definitively, than a flexible one that just gives me a better shot. Or, both. :)

I agree that Sulfuric Vortex can end the game against Miracles. However my point was that in the situations where it is ending the game (empty board for both of you), Miracles will start dumping all of their resources into finding a way to kill you before Vortex gets them. Granted, they may not be able to do that in time but a single Snapcaster or Clique can mean game over when you may have had time to draw out of it otherwise. Secondarily, and more importantly, Vortex is really narrow. Landing a Vortex against Stoneblade only to have them rip Lingering Souls is the worst feeling. What other common matchups will you side Vortex in against? I prefer having cards to shore up a wider variety of matchups (Sulfur Elemental, Surgical Extraction) than having a card I want for just a single deck.

catmint

10-02-2012, 10:15 AM

Altough it happened to me that I died to my own vortex this is a pretty rare scenario. The way the game normally plays out you should be able gain a significant life total advantage and then cast Vortex.

"Miracles dumping all their creatures is a good one" ;)
Stoneblade has more but we are running more than both of them + shots to the face or stifles to stop the trigger in our upkeep helps the race.

Vortex can also be used against any kind of prison deck like staxx variants, lands,... sure those deck do also have answers to vortex but they are usually busy winning the figt over not dying to the creatre based threats.

So Vortex adds another angle of attack to the deck that is very important against since everyone expects RUG these days and everyone prepares for the fight.

Borealis

10-02-2012, 03:11 PM

Racing a Lingering Souls with an active Vortex on the field should not be a problem. They've most likely dealt you approximately no damage at this point, and you should be well ahead in life, giving you plenty of turns to draw into another threat or a Burn spell to keep parity. If you land a single Mongoose, you've basically ended their race. Vendilion Clique and Batterskull are the only cards that can really race you under a Vortex, and you should play accordingly.

I would argue that Sulfur Elemental is almost as narrow as Vortex, while being less effective at actually ending games. Sure, it comes in against White weenie decks, Lingering Souls decks, and Maverick, but it's not exactly a sure thing against any of the above. Maverick has more than enough threats to fight Elemental, and while Mom and Thalia are a pain, Knight, Ooze, Hierarch, Pridemage, and Jitte don't give two shits about Sulfur Elemental. Lingering Souls is 1 card out of Stoneblade amidst a plethora of other threats and interaction, and beyond that I can't think of any Tier 1.x decks that care either, aside from Death and Taxes.

If Stoneblade and Maverick are your problem, the Elemental is probably a better call. If it's Miracles and Stoneblade you fear most, I think the Vortex is much stronger.

As catmint said, Vortex also works in a good plethora of other matchups. Enchantress, MUD, Lands, Junk, and most Griselbrand decks are good targets for a Vortexing.

ThomasDowd

10-02-2012, 03:53 PM

Can someone direct me to the page with the argument for stifle v spell snare on it? or the arguments for each in general? trying to figure out the last few spots in the main. sideboard seems very meta dependent.

Borealis

10-03-2012, 08:56 AM

Try page 149 or so. There's also discussion about Stifle vs Spell Pierce awhile back too somewhere.

But in general, Spell Snare is a meta call as well. If you feel you have enough relevant 2-drops to hit, at all points in a game, than go for it. If you feel they sit in your hand waiting for the first 2-mana spell they cast (relevant or not), I'd probably just stick to other options. In general, Stifle and Spell Pierce are much more versatile. But Snare answers things like Thalia and Counterbalance, which require a lot of resources to deal with otherwise.

apistat_commander

10-03-2012, 09:35 AM

Try page 149 or so. There's also discussion about Stifle vs Spell Pierce awhile back too somewhere.

You mean this? I figured I would repost it because it is a valuable bit of information even if no one asked for it. Granted the metagame has shifted some since this was posted, but I think the basic analysis is still pretty spot on.

- Maverick. Overwhelmingly in favor of Stifle. Spell Pierce will rarely give you value, whereas Stifle can give you occasional blowout wins against their fetchlands and Wastelands. Even in the late game, it has marginal utility against Mother of Runes, Knight of the Reliquary, Maze of Ith, Stoneforge Mystic, etc.
- Stoneblade. In favor of Stifle. In addition to the usual fetchlands and Wastelands, Stoneforge Mystic, Snapcaster Mage, and equipment are good targets even in the mid-to-late game (in addition to occasionally useful but mostly desperate plays against planeswalker activations, Vendilion Clique, etc.). In contrast, Spell Pierce will rarely hit anything useful after a few turns, aside from Jace and the now rarely played Crucible of Worlds. However, I find Jace pretty underwhelming in this matchup unless the Stoneblade player has already stabilized, since they have to deal with your board presence and resolve it through Pierce, in addition to worrying about Bolts and possible REBs in the board.
- Canadian Threshold (mirror). Pierce is good, Stifle is great. Decks with Stifle have a decided edge in the mirror.
- Dredge. I'm not sure. Pierce is better if they're on the explode on you plan (with a turn 2 Careful Study/Breakthrough/Faithless Looting) with a dredger already in the yard, but only if you don't already have Force or Dazes already. Stifle is better if they're on the slow grind plan (which circumvents your other countermagic), since Stifling a Narcomoeba trigger or a Coliseum activation is awesome, while Stifling a Bridge or an Ichorid trigger isn't as nice, but is still useful. I'm calling this in favor of Pierce on the draw and in favor of Stifle on the play (since they're more likely to DDD and you've likely boarded out your Dazes).
- Sneak Attack. Spell Pierce, by a lot. Not much to say here. Stifle is still good, but Pierce is one of the best cards you can see in this matchup.
- Nic Fit. The two cards most likely to wreck you are Veteran Explorer and Pernicious Deed, so Stifle is overwhelmingly the better card here. Even without those two cards, there is no end to the number of Stifle targets in this matchup (fetchlands, Liliana, Finks' life gain and persist triggers, Academy Rector, Recurring Nightmare, Titans, etc.), so it's even good in the late game.
- Ad Nauseam Storm. Spell Pierce, by a little. Both are amazing. Pierce is better against TES, since it deals with Chant/Silence, which is the most threatening card they have. Stifle is probably a little better against the rarely played Grinding Station deck.
- Elves. Both cards suck and should get boarded out. Glimpse and GSZ are the only targets for Pierce, but this deck has so much mana, it's rarely actually live. Stifle isn't great either, although these decks tend to run a lot of fetchlands to thin the deck, since they do in fact draw a lot of cards. Elvish Visionary is a decent Stifle target, although it's not great; hitting Regal Force is living the dream.
- Burn. Spell Pierce, by a huge margin. Not even close. All the Stifle targets suck pretty hard (Rift Bolt, Sulfuric Vortex, Barbarian Ring, Keldon Marauders, Hellspark Elemental).
- Team America. Just speculating here, but I expect Stifle to be better for the same reason that Stifle is better against the mirror.
- Reanimator. Stifle is good. Spell Pierce is amazing. Huge edge in favor of Pierce.
- Aggro Loam. Both cards are mediocre. Not a huge number of targets for Pierce. Plenty of targets for Stifle (fetchlands, Wastelands, cycling lands, Dark Confidant), but all of them are low impact. Push?
- Spiral Tide. Stifle is great if you can hit a fetchland, mediocre if you hit Candelabra, and dead otherwise. Spell Pierce is always awesome in this matchup. Big edge to Pierce.
- Zoo. Stifle. Blowing out their mana is your most realistic chance at winning this matchup.
- Merfolk. Both cards suck. Probably slight edge to Stifle for being able to hit Wasteland, Vial, Adept, and Reejery.
- Affinity. Both cards suck really hard, unless the deck runs Arcbound Ravager, in which case you'll get an occasional blowout. I'd hate having either card here though.
- Bant Aggro. This is really build dependent, but both cards have their uses. Stifle is probably better against the decks that resemble Maverick or Stoneblade, whereas Pierce is much better against the Natural Order builds.
- Painter. Not sure; probably Pierce.
- Thopters. Not sure, but I prefer Pierce.
- MUD. Depends. Stifle is better against Forgemaster combo, whereas Stifle is better against the lock-heavy builds running Chalices and Trinispheres.
- Pox. Pierce is much better.
- Deadguy. Stifle is better, since this deck runs fetchlands, Wastelands, and Stoneforges, with possibly other targets depending on build (Aether Vial, Dark Depths, Tidehollow Sculler, Gatekeeper, etc.).
- Hive Mind. Pierce is better against the Show and Tell->Fatty plan. Stifle is much better if you can kill their mana development, or if they're on the Hive Mind plan. Not only does it prevent them from winning, but it almost always kills them on their next upkeep, plus you don't even need to hold mana open when they're comboing off. Stifle overall.
- Belcher. Pierce.
- Goblins. Stifle.
- Death and Taxes. Stifle.
- Mono Black Aggro. I've never seen this deck before. Is this the Gate?
- Enchantress. Both are good, but Pierce is slightly better.

Sturtzilla

10-03-2012, 02:00 PM

Hey All,

I got second at my Legacy locals this week. I went 3-1, beating UW Landstill (2-0), SnT Omniscience (2-0), and Reanimator (2-0) and losing to Maverick (2-1). Second place was good for $15, so a decent night.

I probably should have lost a game to the Reanimator player but he killed himself with an Underground River. He tapped it enough times that between that, fetching, and a Reanimate I was able to burn him out.

In my match up with Maverick, I had some poor luck. I got game 1. Lost game 2 on a mulligan to 5 (no lands in both 7 and 6 cards [I am running the 18 land build]), which resulted in 3 delvers being in play on my turn two. The delvers didn't flip for 5 turns, which was enough for him to build an army and kill me. Game 3 was close but I couldn't quite seal the deal.

wcm8

10-03-2012, 03:06 PM

words

I appreciate your enthusiasm for the deck, but your report posts tend to lack much actual content. I think you could include some things like what cards were MVPs in the matchups, what new tech from other decks you see being used, changes you would make to the list, etc. As it is, your weekly tournament reports are basically empty text, and you seem to only chalk up your 1-2 loss being due to a poor hand (which might be true, but doesn't really tell us much about the matchup in general...). Also, if your local Reanimator player is playing junk like Underground River instead of a tier manabase, I question the competitiveness of your local metagame. edit: sorry, that was really rude.. I just want more data, ya know? Like what was your configuration that made you 2-0 and 2-1 vs. the decks you beat?

Anyways...

I am finding that lately I prefer the Stifle build with 18 lands. I'm also rolling with this sideboard:

2 Rough//Tumble
1 Grim Lavamancer
3 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Life from the Loam
4 Submerge
1 Scavenging Ooze

Doubling up on Loam has been useful against a variety of decks, and it's somewhat surprising how often it provides some card advantage if you follow it up with Brainstorm. Wasteland recursion is extremely handy in a ton of control matchups, and the majority of aggro decks tend to run Wasteland themselves. It also grants you a bit of buffer from mana screw if you decide to side out Stifle against those matchups.

Against the mirror I've been going -4 FoW, -3 Spell Pierce, -2 Forked Bolt, -1 Fire//Ice, +4 Submerge, +2 Loam, +1 Ooze, +3 Pyroblast. Pyroblast functions as both removal for Delver and a hard counter for just about every non-creature spell, including Submerge. Loam and Stifle are huge edges in the mirror, and having Ooze as Goyf #5 provides further advantage. Aside from going back to running Spell Snare in the main, I'm not sure the mirror match can be improved much further without giving up a lot against the rest of the field.

I think Fire//Ice is the one card in the main deck that is definitely a flex spot. If you know which way your meta leans, that slot could easily be any of the following: 19th land, Sylvan Library, 4th Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, 3rd Forked Bolt, Dismember, Spell Snare, Predict, Ooze, etc... For now I'm just going with Fire//Ice due to its utility. I was testing Izzet Charm for a bit but found it difficult to cast when I wanted to -- I also didn't like how the Shock couldn't go to the dome.

If Rest In Peace catches on heavily, I'll probably consider going back to running Sulfuric Vortex and possibly some other spells in the SB. I'm not so happy about there being a card that statically nerfs 2/3 of our creature base for just 1W. Right now I think it can just be dealt with on the stack, and hopefully by the time it lands you have the opponent in Bolt range.

Sturtzilla

10-04-2012, 04:03 PM

I appreciate your enthusiasm for the deck, but your report posts tend to lack much actual content. I think you could include some things like what cards were MVPs in the matchups, what new tech from other decks you see being used, changes you would make to the list, etc. As it is, your weekly tournament reports are basically empty text, and you seem to only chalk up your 1-2 loss being due to a poor hand (which might be true, but doesn't really tell us much about the matchup in general...).

Well I have been more or less running the same configuration for the past 2-3 months.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Forked Bolt
4 Force of Will
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn

The board changes frequently. The meta at the shop changes on a week to week basis pending who actually shows up. And as such I mitigate my board for the specific players and decks that I will face. This past week I ran the following:

1 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Envelop
1 Flusterstorm
2 Rough/Tumble
1 Krosan Grip
1 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Submerge

As for card analysis, I think that my meta is a poor environment for Forked Bolt. It was boarded out every round except Maverick. I would welcome suggestions on what you guys think would be better. There is a Maverick player and like 1-2 Goblins players. One of the Goblins players has basically every Legacy staple so he changes decks every few weeks. He was the one playing Landstill this past week. So with like 2 in a field of 12-20 it seems that it should be something else. However I am not totally sure what that would be.

From the sideboard, Vortex won me game two against Landstill. He was able to stabilize, but I let him stick a Jace, then landed my Vortex with him tapped out. It killed him before anything meaningful could happen given his board state of lands and Jace.

Will, as for my loss to Maverick, what would you call subsequent no land hands at 6 and 7? I would call that bad luck. Also please note in game two (the one I mulliganed to 5) I had 3 delvers in play on turn two but was unable to flip them for 4-5 turns. This is also luck based (especially on a mulligan to 5, due to having a lower likelihood to have a Brainstorm or Ponder). I also didn't see much sideboard I brought in games 2 and 3 either. As you can see above, I have 4 Submerges, 2 Rough-Tumbles, and arguably a Crypt. I think I saw a Rough-Tumble in game 3 but after I wiped his board, his Knight was able to race me.

On the topic of new tech, the only thing I really noticed was the inclusion of Vexing Susher in the Maverick board. I saw that game 3 but with a Cavern on Humans it really didn't have much sway on the game.

Also, if your local Reanimator player is playing junk like Underground River instead of a tier manabase, I question the competitiveness of your local metagame.

The Reanimator player is new. He did have at least 2 Underground Seas. I don't think his deck was optimized or that he had much experience in the format. Our game one was really sloppy on his part. Some examples: He is on the play, and leaves a fetch on the table and allows me to play a land (His fetch ends up getting Stifled). Fetching out a dual without using it immediately; arguably playing around more Stifles (it promptly gets Wasted on my next turn). Playing a Reanimate after Thoughtseizing and seeing two Lightning Bolts among other things in my hand. The reanimate lowered him to 6. Thus just making him dead to my hand. So you are right, I got a soft round there. That is a poor representation of my whole meta. The other three players were of competitive caliber.

edit: sorry, that was really rude.. I just want more data, ya know? Like what was your configuration that made you 2-0 and 2-1 vs. the decks you beat?

When I first read this, I was a little taken aback. Your post does read a little bit arrogant or rude. Thanks for the edit/clarification. You do make a good point that my weekly reports are very brief and thus not as beneficial as they could be. I generally make them that way because most of us are running nearly the same deck. So I assume results are what people want. Now you have the results and some more information about them, so that should be remedied.

Dzra

10-04-2012, 05:48 PM

When I first read this, I was a little taken aback. Your post does read a little bit arrogant or rude. Thanks for the edit/clarification. You do make a good point that my weekly reports are very brief and thus not as beneficial as they could be. I generally make them that way because most of us are running nearly the same deck. So I assume results are what people want. Now you have the results and some more information about them, so that should be remedied.

Well, instead of saying "I won g1. Mulled to 5 g2 and lost. Lost a close g3." you could say what cards helped you win and what plays were good/bad, etc. In my testing of RUG vs Maverick, losses usually boil down to one play where I can say, "Yeah, that was wrong." Every now and then there's a blowout one way or the other, but wins are usually hard fought.

For example, one game I have a flipped Delver and a threshed Goose. My opponent has a sick KotR in play at 7 life. I have a Bolt and a Goose in hand. The Bolt was just revealed to flip the Delver. I decide to just swing in with the Delver rather than force a trade with the KotR, he drops to 4, I play the second Goose, and feel like the game is in the bag. Pass the turn and he plays a Scryb Ranger, which basically allows him to stabilize at 1. Moral of the story is: I knew KotR was bad, but even at such a late stage of the game, don't risk trying to race a KotR. Just kill it. >_>

Sturtzilla

10-04-2012, 06:15 PM

First, typically at locals I don't take detailed notes. So I won't be able to completely reconstruct these games. If you are familiar with the deck, how much does it help for me to say, "I flipped a delver early/threshed a goose early and beat him with it."? That is what the deck does. None of the situations were really that complex except for the third game with Maverick.

I will say as far as the Maverick match up, I remember feeling rather helpless due to Cavern of Souls in both games 1 and 3 which more or less nullified half of my spells. I think I was able to find a Wasteland in game 1, which opened my counter magic back up. In game 3 that didn't happen. So I guess I will say that I think that is a problem for us. On a more fundamental level, Cavern of Souls just offends me from a design standpoint.

wcm8

10-04-2012, 10:24 PM

Sturtzilla

10-05-2012, 09:56 AM

The reason I was pushing you a bit is because I know that you're a good player that has worthwhile data/tech/information to offer, and wanted a bit more insight especially if you're going to continue with weekly updates. I like to hear from players such as yourself and Mark Sun about progress on the deck, because it's been useful for myself and others to see what's been working and what hasn't in real-life tournament scenarios. No hard feelings intended, and I apologize for the abrasive tone my original comment had.

As for the comments, no worries. Thanks for the push to disclose more information. On to the matter of tech, I would say that the inclusion of Vexing Shusher in Maverick seems a bit worrisome. It gives them more tools to fight through our counters, thus invalidating approximately half of the deck. I think my opponent was only running one. He did manage to get it into play game three though. It never really did much work due to my opponent's Cavern of Souls, but conceptually, it seems like it could be dangerous of us. I guess you could argue that we should just kill it, if we need to counter threats, but then we lose reach and possibly the ability to remove Knights or large Oozes. I guess I am not sure what to think about this issue in the broad scheme of things. Hell, maybe it won't catch on at all.

In terms of my sideboard, I was relatively impressed with Sulfuric Vortex. I had been running it back when Stoneblade was more prevalent. Then with the rise of RUG I had trimmed them for mirror cards. In my meta, Vortex seems pretty good as there usually is a decent number of control oriented decks (Landstill, Miracles, Sneak and Show, Show and Know, etc.). I think about two weeks ago I brought them back to the board and they have been pretty respectable for me thus far.

I think I might try out a few Grim Lavamancers in the main/sideboard. My meta seems to have shifted to a place where Forked Bolt is only really live versus ~1-2 people/decks. Therefore Lavamancer might just be better. It has the potential to give you more reach than a single Forked Bolt, while also serving a more lasting removal role versus the Maverick and Goblins decks. What do you guys think about that?

Water_Wizard

10-07-2012, 06:02 AM

I am finding that lately I prefer the Stifle build with 18 lands. I'm also rolling with this sideboard:

2 Rough//Tumble
1 Grim Lavamancer
3 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Life from the Loam
4 Submerge
1 Scavenging Ooze

How's Rough//Grim working out for you? I understand running one or the other, but both seems like it could put you in a potentially painful situation.

That being said, ruckus/Koby (what ever his handle is nowadays) kinda did the same thing here: http://decks.mtgoacademy.com/Decks.aspx?ID=154501

wcm8

10-08-2012, 10:10 AM

I had the opportunity to watch some of the top 8 matches from the SCG Open Cincinatti, and a few things seem apparent to me:

-RUG is not in any real danger of dying. Uncounterable removal or no, the deck has the consistency and staying power to beat the field at large. Unless Rest in Peace.dec catches on heavily, I don't see any need to jump ship.
-The winning deck was an interesting list, but I don't think it would consistently beat RUG, especially if the list adjusted its SB and main deck a bit more. Ancient Grudge in particular seems like it would give Caleb's deck fits. Null Rod isn't a terrible idea either if there are a higher density of artifact decks.
-Spell Snare is beginning to look like it has a fair number of targets again.
-Sulfur Elemental may be worth bringing back to the sideboard. Aside from being an obvious bomb against Maverick, Death and Taxes, and BW tokens decks, it has utility against control and combo decks. It also does not die to Perish or suffer from graveyard hate.

Teaser: as far as new tech goes, I am working on an idea for RUG that I believe has merit, but I am going to wait until I can get some real life tournament testing results before sharing it here.

alekill

10-08-2012, 12:50 PM

So my meta in the last month or so has had a surge of combo decks, I've adjusted to it fairly well but would like to know everyone's input on what I've done.

The main board counters are
4x FoW
3x Daze
4x pierce
4x stifle

Side board
3x flusterstorm
2x envelop

Jblaze4lif

10-08-2012, 01:06 PM

Looks great. I personally like 4 Daze/ 3 Pierce bc I tap out very frequently.

rgripp

10-08-2012, 10:35 PM

How about them Izzet Charms?

I think that the 2 cost is not enough of a drawback to compensate that it's so versatile. A Spell Pierce that's alive against creature decks AND acts like a Thought Scour when I need one? Yes please!

Been playing/testing this list, but it seems like all over the place, could probably use some polishing.

3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland

3 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Izzet Charm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Thought Scour
4 Stifle
1 Forked Bolt

SB: 2 Rough // Tumble
SB: 4 Submerge
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge

alekill

10-09-2012, 12:38 PM

I think there are a few issues with it that take it just out of competitive range.

1. It costs 2, If your holding up 2 mana to kill something or counter something your putting yourself into a very defensive role and usually can't manage to drop threats while doing this. Being defensive is something we have to do though and we excel at this because we can have so many counterspells. Not only do we have the usual force + daze hands but hands like force plus daze plus two spell pierces. Being able to shoot off 4 counterspells on one turn will win you the game, or get you close enough, more often then not against decks like know and tell. With izzet charm your down to 3 counterspells in our force, daze, pierce, and charm hand.

In the fair deck matchups costing 2 can make it so that you might never cast it against a thalia.

2. The burn is kind of bad, by only hitting creatures and not being able to split up it loses almost all of it's utility. I would say almost every time I cast a forked bolt it's by saying "forked bolt the two of them".

3. I don't think I ever want to cast the third option, yes you get to draw cards and fill up your graveyard for goose but I think there are better 1 mana options for this namely though scour.

ThomasDowd

10-09-2012, 03:28 PM

mana efficiency. I even hate playing with fire // ice because it costs two and not one. I am actually beginning to come around to it. ugh 2 is so much mana.

tianyuan2k4

10-09-2012, 03:52 PM

A RUG deck just won in a major national tournament in France with new RTR cards such as Nivmagus Elemental and Izzet Charm.

Finale CDF Legacy
http://www.watchdamatch.com/coverage/finale-cdf-legacy/

Creatures
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Nivmagus Elemental
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

Spells
2 Izzet Charm
3 Flusterstorm
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
2 Ponder

Lands
1 Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Pyroblast
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Submerge

xfxf

10-09-2012, 06:56 PM

Replacing Mongoose with the new elemental and Lavamancer, supporting the elemental with Flusterstorm looks like very interesting changes to the deck. I'm not sure about the Izzet Charm though. I'd be curious to hear how he used the charm most of the time.

alekill

10-10-2012, 01:33 AM

tianyuan2k4

10-10-2012, 12:08 PM

I guess this is ok in a meta where there are no creature decks?

The link has the meta breakdown.

The thing is that in order to get into this tournament, you have to top 8 in qualifier event. From what I read, the Maverick player who talked about the qualifier experience (131 players in the last chance qualifier) mentioned meta was infest with UW miracle. Then a lot of Goblin, RUG, Bant. A couple of SnT, Dredge and reanimator. And no Merfolk (Only 1 in the finals as you can see).

So this RUG some how managed to swim through the sea of aggro decks.

CranialX

10-10-2012, 03:12 PM

Interesting the purpose of the flusterstorm is to feed the extra storm count to Nivmagus Elemental.

apistat_commander

10-11-2012, 10:39 AM

Interesting the purpose of the flusterstorm is to feed the extra storm count to Nivmagus Elemental.

This just seems really terrible to me. We are trading our best threat against control and one of our best counters (which is still pretty situational) for what exactly? Flusterstorm is really terrible in so many MUs that Pierce does a ton of work in. If the meta somehow becomes very hostile to Mongoose/Goyf, I can see exploring other options but at that point the deck is likely just dead.

Played a couple of games against decks rocking Abrupt Decay and it was kind of frustrating but not gamebreaking. Anything running AD is probably in 3 colors making them vulnerable to Wasteland and Stifle. Sure it sucked to lose a threat but it usually meant that I would end up holding countermagic for their threats.

Jblaze4lif

10-11-2012, 02:27 PM

I would rather run Goose instead of Grim in the above list.

It would be kind iof fun to brainstorm in response to opponents 2nd spell with a Brainstorm and then Fluster for 4 copies exile them making Nivmagus a 9/10 lol

Sturtzilla

10-11-2012, 03:36 PM

Greetings Everyone!

I just figured I should post a few things from my legacy locals this week. I managed to go 3-1. I beat Dredge (2-0), the mirror (2-0), and Spanish Inquisition (2-0). I lost my one round to Affinity (2-1). I don't remember what place I ended but I got $10 in store credit which was more than I paid. So I was happy with that.

If you go back a page or two you can see my past deck configuration. This week I made a slight change. You guys will probably disagree with this but I ran 2 Standstill in place of the 2 Forked Bolt. I was going to try out two maindeck Grim Lavamancers, but I didn't get a hold of them and didn't want to pay actual money for them. I had been wondering about both Grim and Standstill (and a few other cards) for these flex slots. As an overall analysis of the card in this deck, when it was good it was really good and when it was bad, it was kind of meh.

Round 1: Affinity (1-2) - I took game one due to an early aggressive start with a flipped delver on turn two followed by a goyf. I am on the aggressive and he never hit a plating to race me. In both games two and three I lose to a lack of Spell Snare and Ancient Grudge when he slams a Cranial Plating and kills me. Arguably I should have another Grudge in the board if this guy keeps playing in the my meta. I don't think it was necessarily bad luck or draws, it is just two aggressive decks racing. RUG has a bit more in control, but you have to hit key pieces, Plating or Champion with it.

Round 2: Dredge (2-0) - My opponent mulligans to 5 to get a hand with land. I counter his only discard outlet with a Daze after sticking a delver. He dies swiftyly to Delver and Goose beats. Game 2, I land a Turn two delver and follow it with a Goose and a Grafdigger's Cage. I start the beats and Cage keeps him from doing anything scary.

Round 3: RUG (2-0) - Both games were very tight. I was able to negotiate to a place where I was ahead on board and played Standstill. Here it was awesome, and not just a card to pitch to FoW or Back-Brainstorming fodder. Once you are hitting for more damage and have a Standstill in play it is hard to lose the mirror.

Round 4: Spanish Inquisition (2-0) - Game one I led with a turn two delver, leaving up a fetch for a Spell Pierce. I knew what my opponent was playing as group of players isn't that large. I start my delver beats. He tries to go off with Chrome Mox into Dark Rit, but I pierce his Rit. He flounders for a few turns while I beat with Delver and Brainstorm and Ponder to make my hand more controlly. Game 2, I start with Delver and Goose on turns one and two, as I have a FoW. He manages to bait my FoW and stick a Charbelcher, but doesn't have enough mana to activate it. I kill him before he can restock his hand to get there.

Overall the deck played basically as it normally does. I probably want to get back to having 2 Ancient Grudge in my board for the two Affinity players that popped up this week. I am not sold on Standstill. It was decent in the mirror as I was able to get ahead. It could have been decent against SI if I could have gone T1 Delver, T2 Standstill. But against Affinity, I didn't draw it. It would have been better as the Forked Bolts. Overall against the field that I played it was probably about the same. It was great when I played it in the Mirror and against combo but was bad against aggro. Forked Bolt is the opposite, good against aggro type decks and poor versus combo. So I will likely not keep it in and try to find another replacement for that slot.

apistat_commander

10-12-2012, 09:45 AM

If you go back a page or two you can see my past deck configuration. This week I made a slight change. You guys will probably disagree with this but I ran 2 Standstill in place of the 2 Forked Bolt. I was going to try out two maindeck Grim Lavamancers, but I didn't get a hold of them and didn't want to pay actual money for them. I had been wondering about both Grim and Standstill (and a few other cards) for these flex slots. As an overall analysis of the card in this deck, when it was good it was really good and when it was bad, it was kind of meh.

Nice results! Bummer about losing to Affinity. I seem to always have a counter for their Plating/Etched Champion and beyond that their deck is probably cold to Tarmogoyf. Forked bolt is also pretty awesome against them because they run so many 1/1's. Even though the Standstill experiment didn't seem to work out, I appreciate you testing out random tech.

Is your list on the last page missing 4 Stifles? How do you feel about cutting the single Daze to fit in the 2 Spell Snare? Daze synergizes really well with Stifle and I almost always want it in my opening hand, but it can become dead very quickly if they are drawing basics/you don't draw Stifles/Wastelands. It is also one of our only means of stopping troublesome creatures outside of Force.

Sturtzilla

10-12-2012, 11:48 AM

Nice results! Bummer about losing to Affinity. I seem to always have a counter for their Plating/Etched Champion and beyond that their deck is probably cold to Tarmogoyf. Forked bolt is also pretty awesome against them because they run so many 1/1's. Even though the Standstill experiment didn't seem to work out, I appreciate you testing out random tech.

Thanks! Honestly, I deserved to lose to Affinity in the post board games. I didn't have a good plan for games two and three. It is kind of funny, two guys just showed up at the shop this week and both were running Affinity. Luckily I only got paired against one of them. I hadn't been particularly happy with Ancient Grudge as there were very few good targets for it in the meta. No one has really been playing Stoneblade, MUD, or Affinity, so it would have only be marginally decent against the Maverick Jittes and some of the UW Landstill deck's win conditions. If those two jokers show up again next week, I will make sure to be packing some love for them.

As far as the Standstill experiment, I don't think it shines in this match up, but against combo and control decks it might be worth revisiting. So if you meta is mostly Combo and Control, I would suggest at least trying it for a week. It is pretty powerful to stick a Delver and follow it with a Standstill.

Is your list on the last page missing 4 Stifles?

Yes, it was. I revised the list on the last page. Thanks for the Careful Study there. LOL!

How do you feel about cutting the single Daze to fit in the 2 Spell Snare? Daze synergizes really well with Stifle and I almost always want it in my opening hand, but it can become dead very quickly if they are drawing basics/you don't draw Stifles/Wastelands. It is also one of our only means of stopping troublesome creatures outside of Force.

I totally agree with your logic. The problem is that in my local meta, most of the players that I end up playing in rounds 2-4 or 5, are pretty good and play around both Stifle and Daze rather well. They can do this but it is a lot harder to play around Spell Snare. It has relevant targets in just about every match up. Show and Tell decks are a bit "meh" for it but you can always take them out post board, pitch them to FoW, and/or shuffle them away with Brainstorm and fetchlands. I have really like Spell Snare in my meta. There is occasionally (the guy works for the shop, so sometimes he plays and sometimes he has to work) one Show and Tell deck, so it is almost always a live, hard counter spell. You bring up a good point, that perhaps the two flex slots that I have been testing should just be another Daze and only one real flex slot, possibly that Lavamancer...

poxy14

10-14-2012, 11:52 PM

last SCG Open we fell short...
today's our very day! GO RUG!

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/finals_elliot_wolchesky_vs_jer.html

NecroYawgmoth

10-16-2012, 09:01 PM

How good is Electrickery in RUG compared to Forked Bolt? Seem spretty good against Maverick and Goblins IMO. It also can kill all unflipped Delvers and unthreshed Mongeese in the mirror.

TraxDaMax

10-16-2012, 10:41 PM

How good is Electrickery in RUG compared to Forked Bolt? Seem spretty good against Maverick and Goblins IMO. It also can kill all unflipped Delvers and unthreshed Mongeese in the mirror.

I think being able to shock your opponents has more value.
And at 2 mana you're better off casting Rough//Tumble or Pyroclasm.

dune2k

10-17-2012, 09:05 AM

I think being able to shock your opponents has more value.
And at 2 mana you're better off casting Rough//Tumble or Pyroclasm.

Plus you can't kill anything with it that has 2 toughness (an early Goyf, Merfolk Lords, ...).

ThomasDowd

10-17-2012, 12:59 PM

How good is Electrickery in RUG compared to Forked Bolt? Seem spretty good against Maverick and Goblins IMO. It also can kill all unflipped Delvers and unthreshed Mongeese in the mirror.

it's bad.

poxy14

10-19-2012, 11:55 PM

would u guys consider this for nivmagus elemental (if it ever happens the elemental will make the rug roster)
http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=51222

basically he'll be a 2cc hexproof/haste that can grow larger than goyf..
can make delver hexproof too and is blue ofcourse..

Demonic_Attorney

10-20-2012, 02:53 PM

That looks like the exact opposite thing I want to be doing with the deck. It looks like the cards he cut for the izzet charms were ponders. This leads me to believe he probably cast izzet charm for the carefull study the majority of the time however he isn't running forked bolt or fire//ice so I honestly can't tell what he was doing. It just seems bad especially with the changes he made.
I guess this is ok in a meta where there are no creature decks?

With the greatest of respect, it is quite conspicuous that you're categorically incorrect in your foregoing view that the Nivmagus Elemental/ Flusterstorm package is bad. To the contrary, the irrefutable evidence is that Michael Li Tie-Thiao took Nivmagus Canadian Threshold and dominated the Swiss in a competitive and large scale tournament with a field comprised of creature based aggro decks suck as merfolk, zoo, traditional thresh, maverick and goblins. In the top eight Michael went onto show just how much stronger this version of Canadian Threshold is against a lot of graveyard hate, control and combo in winning a very competitive tournament and in doing so, proved this deck is viable and it is palpable that the changes he made were indeed good to say the least.

I do agree that the charms seem prominently weak compared to what other more conducive card options are available for thresh; however, the Elemental Nivmagus and Flusterstorm package is quite efficacious to what a skilled player wants to do with this deck.

I also steadfastly share the view that Thought Scour has become somewhat sub-par which is likely why most of if not all of the recent major tournament top 8 or even top 16 players that opted to run Canadian Thresh have dispensed with Scour. This inherently makes achieving threshold that much slower. The first few turns of the game Nimble Mongoose is a mere 1/1 and then when threshold is final achieved what a buzzkill when a Relic or Crypt empties your yard and it once again becomes a mere 1/1 and obviously threshold does not affect or hinder Grim Lavamancer and Nivmagus. Now with Rest in Peace joining what seems to be an abundance of overwhelming graveyard hate available to a lot of tier one decks in the competitive meta, I am attracted to Nivmagus as it lets you play Lavamancer as well which absolutely has no synergy with Nimble Mongoose. Mongoose is vulnerable to Perish whereas Nivmagus is not and there are also a lot of Liliana of the Veil, Diabolic Edict and Innocent Blood alike out there.

In terms of Spell Pierce, I concur it is usually better than Flusterstorm for the manifest reasons of being able to counter artifacts, enchantments and planeswalkers in addition to sorcery and instant spells. However, in the context of this deck, Flusterstorm fills two roles in the version of this deck running Nivmagus; countering spells and feeding Nivmagus in an efficient and broken fashion. Furthermore, late game Flusterstorm can force them to have to pay four or five mana easy, or their spell is countered whereas they would be able to likely pay the two casting cost for Spell Pierce. Indeed, Spell Pierce is a better card overall or considered in isolation; however, in the context of this particular deck (Nivmagus Canadian Threshold), Flusterstorm is superior, more practical and has much better synergy interacting with the decks other predominant cards.

In short, this deck can be good in metagames where there is aggro or as you put it, creature based decks as the aforementioned conclusive results clearly indicate.

jtos84

10-23-2012, 11:17 AM

My first thoughts on Nimgagus elemental come from experience, and simple logic. Legacy thrives on efficiency. Using much of your hand to pump a creature that can still be targeted by your opponent is not efficient other than that you have the potential to do quick damage. Canadian Threshold's success can easily be attributed to nimble mongoose. My conclusion on Nivmagus in this deck is that it does not have the potential to top 8 consistently because the possibility of losing through card disadvantage because the elemental is removed is present.

Although it is good to experiment with new cards I just do not see how Nivmagus Elemental is going to be played in legacy. I could be wrong, and I would definitley be suprised if it does make Rug Delver a better performing deck. Sylvan Library is also a creative addition to threshold, but I am not a big fan of it. I have also cut Thoughtscour from my list, but I am unsure if this is a mistake. Thoughtscour can definitley help the deck acheive threshold much quicker, but it can also come with some drawbacks like losing other creatures, or not drawing into any more Nimble Mongooses. I think a Rug Delver Player in Indianpolis was using Vendillion Clique from the s/b and made the top eight. Maybe that could be a replacement for thoughtscour in the maindeck. It may add some speed and control to the game.

Sturtzilla

10-24-2012, 11:09 AM

Greetings again everyone!

I am just popping in to let you guys know about weekly Legacy in my area. I wnet 3-0-1 this week and slpit 1st and 2nd with another player. This was good for $25 in store credit. The other player and I played for the free tourney entry and I managed to beat him. So I got that as well. Anyway here are the match ups.

Round 1: Affinity (2-0) - Typically this MU is either a straight up race where we only care about Master of Etherium, Etched Champion, and Cranial Plating, or a slow draw for the affinity player that we can grind out with our counterspells and burn. Their deck has a lot of cards that are dead in the mid to late game which gives us a large advantage as long as we can get there.

Game 1: I was a little lucky in game one as my opponent had a hard time finding a keepable hand. After sticking with his 4 card hand, my draw of Delver, Goyf and FoW was enough to apply pressure while taking out his only real threat, Etched Champion. He quickly died to the Delver/Goyf tag-team.

Sideboarding: +2 Ancient Grudge, +2 Krosan Grip, +2 Rough/Tumble, +1 REB; -4 Daze, -3 Stifle: I would have liked to take out the last Stifle as there are few relevant targets... Cranial Plating Equip/Attach and Ravager. And if either of these are on board you are in trouble without artifact hate.

Game 2: He craps his hand onto the table... threatening 6 on turn two with a Frogmite, an Ornithopter, a Memnite, and a Signal Pest. Luckily to get to this board state he played every card except one. I play tropical island into Delver. My opponent draws, plays an artifact land, and attacks for 6. Post combat he plays a second Frogmite, leving him empty handed. I Brainstorm during my upkeep to flip my delver, attack for 3, play a Volcanic Island. Holding a FoW, Rough/Tumble, and some other stuff. He attacks for another 9, putting me to 5 and passes. I attack for another 3 dropping him to 14. I then cast Rough, killing his entire board save the Ornithopter and lands. I followed that with a Nimble Monogoose and a fectchland. He draws dead for the rest of the game while the RUG Team beats his face in.

Round 2: RUG (2-1)

Game 1: I have an opening hand with double Stifle and 2 Wastelands. He doesn't get a land into play until turn 4-5. By then he is dead.

Sideboarding: -4 FoW, -2 Daze; +4 Submerge, +1 REB, +1 Scavenging Ooze

Game 2: After the large amount of Stifling and Wastelanding, my opponent played a bit more conservatively. I was however put into a position where I had Wasteland, Fetch on the table with 8 cards in hand. I had both Ponder and Brainstorm in hand. I chose to crack the fetch to try to find another land. He Stifled me and I didn't hit a land for the rest of the game. So this poses a very interesting question; is it correct to fetch as I did, when you are going to be forced to discard or should you just pitch something? For clarity, my opponent had Pondered once but wasn't applying any pressure to me. In hindsight, I am inclined to think just pitching a card is probably right. He would have been force to do the same in his next turn.

Game 3: This was a repeat of game 2 but I was favored. I had a hand with Stifles and Wastes and just kept him of land. I managed to sneak a Delver in and Start the beats. This round seemed to be utterly dominated by Stifles and Wastelands. I have played the mirror plenty of times but this series of games was just straight blowouts one way or the other due to utter land domination.

Round 3: Esper Stoneblade: (2-0) - After testing both the Esper and U/W Stoneblade MUs a good bit, I would say that RUG has a slight edge in the Esper MU and the UW MU is about even. Then again these are both very draw dependent.

Game 1: I had seen a little bit of my opponent's deck and sideboard as we sat beside each other the previous round. So I know to watch out for Supreme Verdict. Due to this, I played out threats systematically one at a time and made him go one for one with me. I used Stifles and Wastes aggressively to keep him from hitting the 4 mana threshold at which Verdict and Jace come online. This line of plays kept him on the back foot and ultimately I just beat him down with a threshed Goose.

Sideboarding: -4 Daze, -2 Lightning Bolt; +1 REB, +1 Scavenging Ooze, +2 Ancient Grudge, +2 Krosan Grip: I rationalize the removal of the 2 Lightning Bolts with the artifact removal. With this SB plan, you don't have to counter or kill a SFM, you let it resolve and blow up the equipment. I don't know about you, but I am not afraid of a Squire if I can take out its gear.

Game 2: The game plan was more or less the same. Attack one guy at a time, unless you can threaten lethal a turn earlier (without loosing to a Verdict). I also let a SFM resolve and put a Jitte into play. I even let him equip and attack with it. But I blew it up with a Grudge. It is kind of counter intuitive but it is a great tempo play. Additionally, it is pretty tough to counter as you can just let the first attempt be countered (in this case a 2-1 because he used a FoW) and I just flashed it back (I am not sure why he did this...). Eventually a turn 1 delver brought home this game for me. My opponent didn't have the chance to pull the trigger on a Verdict for better thana 1-for-1 and apparently he couldn't hit a StP. I ended the game with a Delver, Goose, Ooze, Lightning Bolt, and FoW in hand. So I had more pressure, but was playing very carefully to make sure his cards would yield the lowest value possible.

Round 4: White Weenie (2-0) - This is a new take on the old favorite. A guy at the local shop has been running this white humans brew... and to be frank it can be pretty scary. It has the mana denial package of Goblins (Port and Waste) and the counter resiliency as well (Vial and Cavern), yet the creatures generate less card advantage but are typically a bit scarier on the table.

Game 1: I kill a turn one Mother of Runes. He follows his mom with a Thalia. Oh these are both cast off of a turn one Cavern of Souls. I luckily have a second bolt. I play a second land but wait until his end step to kill his Thalia. He had run out an Aether Vial. I Player Delver and Goyf on my turn three. He ticks his vial up. I beat in a few time while he has a blank board. Then when his vial hits three he Fiend Hunters my Delver...? Wtf? Anyway I have threshold and am ahead in the race now so I just keep on attacking. He eventually has to block to stay and alive and I get my delver back.

Sideboarding: -4 FoW, -4 Daze; +2 Rough/Tumble, +1 Scavenging Ooze, +2 Ancient Grudge, +2 Krosan Grip, +1 Something Else...: I brought in the Artifact and Enchantment hate for Jittes and Honor of the Pure which I know him to run.

Game 2: He has a more aggressive hand, with Thalia into Silverblade Paladin. I get to do the awesome block with Goyf and Bolt your Paladin play to 2-for-1 him. But then a Detention Sphere takes my Goyf. I hit a Grip and get my Goyf back. It beats as a 5/6 for game after a few turns.

apistat_commander

10-25-2012, 10:01 AM

Sturtzilla

10-25-2012, 10:33 AM

Good job! After your suggestion about running the two Spell Snares I have been really enjoying them in my MD. They are still flex slots, if I show up at my weekly and see more aggro than control they turn into a Forked Bolt and something else depending on what I see. I have the urge to at least test Izzet Charm but I am pretty sure it isn't good enough. After testing BUG Tempo for a bit, I realized how awful it is to have more than a handful of two drops/color intensive spells in your deck.

Thanks! I picked up the Spell Snares again after the Legacy GP, which RUG won. That list was running 2 Spell Snare and 2 Fire/Ice. I ran that configuration for a bit and I only tweaked the maindeck by a card or two. My meta warrants the inclusion of Spell Snare. Just about every deck has legit targets for it with the exception of the one Dredge player.

I concur with you on Izzet Charm. After being initially excited about it, I did a small amount of testing with it and wasn't impressed. The flexibility is great but the mana in this deck is typically rather constrained. This leads to it being easily countered or tough to actually use profitably. We can always hope that the Simic and/or Gruul Charms and one drop hybrids guys might be good enough to warrant inclusion. I have my fingers crossed for some decent playables from Gatecrash.

Quick question about your SB, 2x Grudge and 2x Grip seems a bit like overkill. Granted, you boarded them both in a fair number of MUs, but did you ever miss the sideboard space? Did you end up testing the MD Lavamancer?

It is funny that you mention this, as I was thinking the same thing going into the event. However, I made this decision because there was an Affinity deck, 2 decks with Stoneforge and one that either a Stoneforge deck or a Miracles deck (it turned out to be the Esper Stoneblade deck I faced). I knew this going into the event, so it seemed that all the artifact and enchantment hate would be necessary. Also there were 3 other RUG players... so the sideboard with 4 ways to interact with artifacts, 2 ways to deal with counterbalance, and 4 submerges for the mirror, felt pretty safe. I guess it might have been good to include some more love for the mirror, but the 4 Submerge and 1 Ooze were pretty decent. So I guess I didn't really miss the sideboard space in this specific event. It is possible that if I had varying MUs, I could have a different opinion. That is the thing that is interesting about locals though, after a few events you become familiar with what the other players have access to. That allows you to tweak your board to make it specifically potent for the key MUs in your meta.

As for Grim Lavamancer, I have not gotten around to testing it yet. Until this past week, it didn't seem all that great for the maindeck. There had been one Maverick player and a Goblins deck, which it would have helped with. If my meta has shifted to a place where there are consistently 4 RUG decks, a white weenie deck, and a Maverick deck it seems totally reasonable to test out for a week or two. I have to confess that part of the reason that I haven't tested him out is the fact that I want to find Torment foils... none of this new goofy nonsense. However getting that specific version might be a bit too cost prohibitive. I guess we will see.

Edit: I would rather board out the full set of Stifles against Affinity. While Stifling an equip trigger can occasionally save you, they have a pretty vulnerable manabase and rely heavily on dropping things the first two turns which is where Daze really shines.

I agree with you on this to some degree. I think is a case where you sideboard against the technical play of your opponent. More specifically you know what you want to bring in, but your opponent's play style affects how valuable individual spells are (additionally being on the play or draw dramatically changes the value of Daze). If they just go balls deep and drop everything, Daze is probably better. On the other hand if your opponent is careful and plays around Daze for the big threats, Master, Champion, Plating... then Stifle is probably a bit better as it isn't totally dead. My opponent was very careful to not run his key guys into Dazes, so I stick with my boarding decision. Additionally in game 2, I was on the draw. This makes it relatively unlikely that Daze would be live at all.

apistat_commander

10-25-2012, 10:54 AM

Thanks! I picked up the Spell Snares again after the Legacy GP, which RUG won. That list was running 2 Spell Snare and 2 Fire/Ice. I ran that configuration for a bit and I only tweaked the maindeck by a card or two. My meta warrants the inclusion of Spell Snare. Just about every deck has legit targets for it with the exception of the one Dredge player.

They are pretty solid. Are you still going with 1 less Daze to fit them in or did you cut a Forked Bolt? I like having six burn spells but I just can't bring myself to go to less than 4 Daze because opening on Delver with Daze back-up is the best. The only other thing I would consider cutting would be a Spell Pierce, but three just feels like the right number. This also goes back to what are people playing at your local in a given week. For example, at my locals last week all the regular Stoneblade players were on different decks. Depending on what shows up tonight (and if I can actually predict it) I will either go with Snares or 2 Forked Bolts + a Dismember.

I agree with you on this to some degree. I think is a case where you sideboard against the technical play of your opponent. More specifically you know what you want to bring in, but your opponent's play style affects how valuable individual spells are (additionally being on the play or draw dramatically changes the value of Daze). If they just go balls deep and drop everything, Daze is probably better. On the other hand if your opponent is careful and plays around Daze for the big threats, Master, Champion, Plating... then Stifle is probably a bit better as it isn't totally dead. My opponent was very careful to not run his key guys into Dazes, so I stick with my boarding decision. Additionally in game 2, I was on the draw. This makes it relatively unlikely that Daze would be live at all.

Fair enough. I guess that I just never got much/any value out of Stifle in my testing against the deck as the only real target was Cranial Plating. This changes some if they are running Tezz given how important that card can be for the deck.

Sturtzilla

10-25-2012, 11:50 AM

They are pretty solid. Are you still going with 1 less Daze to fit them in or did you cut a Forked Bolt? I like having six burn spells but I just can't bring myself to go to less than 4 Daze because opening on Delver with Daze back-up is the best. The only other thing I would consider cutting would be a Spell Pierce, but three just feels like the right number. This also goes back to what are people playing at your local in a given week. For example, at my locals last week all the regular Stoneblade players were on different decks. Depending on what shows up tonight (and if I can actually predict it) I will either go with Snares or 2 Forked Bolts + a Dismember.

I have been running the following for the past week or two.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
2 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard typically looks something like this, although I do change it depending one what I expect to play against:

1 Surgical Extraction
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Krosan Grip
1 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Submerge
2 Rough/Tumble

apistat_commander

10-26-2012, 09:53 AM

Went 3-1 at my locals last night. My MD is identical to Sturt's, my SB was this:

4 Submerge - MVP
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rough//Tumble
1 Scavenging Ooze - Useless, I just never had the mana to drop and utilize this.

R1 - GSZ Bant (2-1) - G1 I keep a double Waste, Stifle hand and try to keep him off mana. I make the key mistake here of not switching from my tempo plan to a Delver plan when I opt to leave mana up instead of dropping a Delver. Even though I waste him twice, he gets two Hierarchs and manages to stabilize with Knights. SB: -4 FoW -2 Spell Snare, +4 Submerge +2 Pyroblast. G2 and 3 Submerge does all of the heavy lifting and I get there with Delver beats.

R2 - Miracles (2-1) - G1 is a long drawn out affair where I open with a decent hand (Daze, Daze, Fetch, Fetch, Ponder, Force, something else) but I don't manage to get a threat in time. I Stifle multiple Terminus and Entreats before he Entreats with enough mana to pay for the Pierce and Daze in my hand. SB: -1 Forked Bolt -3 Lightning Bolt, +2 Sulfuric Vortex +2 Pyroblast. G2 I start to beat him down with Goose and manage to resolve a Vortex through his countermagic. Vortex + Goose gets him down to two where he stabilizes with Moat, Rest in Peace, Detention Sphere on my Vortex, and establishes CB lock. I rip another Vortex and land it the turn after he plays an Elspeth. Despite tons of digging he can't answer it and it gets there. G3 He is stuck on 2x Island, 1x Plains and Goose goes in for the full 20 damage. Vortex is awesome against Miracles, however I would definitely like more board slots devoted to the MU as it felt very close to squeak those two wins.

R3 - Can Thresh (2-0) - My opponent is a newer player and doesn't really get the deck (he had 4 Mindbreak Trap in his SB for combo :eek:). SB -4 Force of Will -2 Spell Snare, +4 Submerge +2 Pyroblast Easy 2-0 win.

R4 - Scapewish Nic Fit (1-2) - G1 I get him down to 8 but he manages to answer 2 Delvers and 3 Tarmogoyfs before ripping a Thragtusk to beat me to death. SB -4 Daze -1 Spell Pierce, +4 Submerge, +1 Scavenging Ooze. G2 his deck doesn't do anything while I beat him down with only a Delver and Tropical Island. G3 is slightly frustrating as I punted it away through carelessness. I am beating down with Delver and drop a Goyf. His board is unflipped Huntmaster and he has a single Therapy in the GY. On a critical turn I decide not to attack with Goyf meaning that he has a creature to flashback his Therapy to strip the Snare from my hand allowing him to Burning Wish for the win. I had double bolt in hand and if I had gotten in one extra Goyf hit, I could have killed him. Their high threat density + relatively low amount of removal + consistency issues means that the best line of attack is to just aggro them out at all costs. However this may only be the correct line against the more combo Scapewish version.

Besides punting in the last round, I felt that I played pretty solidly. Self control is incredibly important with RUG. Here is the SB I am thinking about for next week:

4 Submerge
2 Rough//Tumble
1 Cursed Totem
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
3 Pyroblast
1 Envelop

I am not sure if I want the 3rd Pyroblast or a 2nd Envelop. There seem to be a lot of decks that Envelop is solid against in my meta (2 Scapewish decks, Miracles, Elves, Reanimator) but I love me some Pyroblast. I really like having hard counters outside of Force. Thoughts? Also, is there anything that really improves the Nic Fit MU or do we just concede that the deck is designed to beat us?

useL

10-26-2012, 11:32 AM

4 Submerge
2 Rough//Tumble
1 Cursed Totem
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
3 Pyroblast
1 Envelop

I am not sure if I want the 3rd Pyroblast or a 2nd Envelop. There seem to be a lot of decks that Envelop is solid against in my meta (2 Scapewish decks, Miracles, Elves, Reanimator) but I love me some Pyroblast. I really like having hard counters outside of Force. Thoughts? Also, is there anything that really improves the Nic Fit MU or do we just concede that the deck is designed to beat us?

My sideboard is currently:

4 Submerge
2 Rough // Tumble
2 Krosan Grip
2 Envelop
2 Pyroblast
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Sulfuric Vortex

I feel that this is a well rounded sideboard but I am considering cutting Engineered Explosives simply because it is too slow against some decks. I like that I have a lot of solid cards against the U/W-matchup since my meta is flooded with it, considering cutting explosives for 1 Sulfuric Vortex and 1 Pyroblast to get a better sideboard against U/W and RUG but then I will probably get raped by active mother of runes instead =(

The NicFit MU is won by submerge and high tempo (mull everything down to a flying delver and submerge). Have we all agreed on that graveyard hate is a waste of slots or is it just you and me? Fringe decks like Reanimator and Dredge just has to be won against with the cards in hand. Here my Engineered Explosives is stellar though, taking care of zombies and Animate Deads.

Sturtzilla

10-26-2012, 02:37 PM

R4 - Scapewish Nic Fit (1-2)

Shouldn't our counter spells and Submerges win this match up? Honestly, I am not sure of the archetype that you are describing here. Could you post a rough deck list here or a link, so that I can get a better of what type of deck this is? If you do, I might be able to get a feel for if there are any alternative ways to attack it that you had not already suggested.

4 Submerge
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rough//Tumble
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Submerge
2 Rough//Tumble
1 Cursed Totem
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
3 Pyroblast
1 Envelop

I am not sure if I want the 3rd Pyroblast or a 2nd Envelop. There seem to be a lot of decks that Envelop is solid against in my meta (2 Scapewish decks, Miracles, Elves, Reanimator) but I love me some Pyroblast. I really like having hard counters outside of Force. Thoughts? Also, is there anything that really improves the Nic Fit MU or do we just concede that the deck is designed to beat us?

I have felt the same way about Scavenging Ooze just about every time I bring him back to the board. I had been running him in the main awhile back but he was never really game breaking for me. I ended up moving him to the sideboard and then phasing him out. He came back this week because there was a Dredge deck, a Reanimator deck, and Affinity. Granted he isn't great versus Affinity, but the incremental life gain can be better than some of the other cards that we have access to.

I generally feel that Ooze and Life from the Loam are just win-more most of the time (I know that you didn't mention LftL, but it is a common sideboard card that many people endorse). There are better forms of graveyard hate out there. And if you can Wastelock someone you probably would be winning anyway. In my experience there are a few scenarios where this isn't the case, but typically I would say that this is true.

As for the 3rd REB/Pyroblast effect versus a 2nd Envelop, I would say it is rather meta dependent. Do you find your self wanting to counter Sorceries or blue cards (counter/destroy) more often? That likely solves your quandary. It is probably a nit picky point, but I would say regardless of your decision, you Pyrobasts should be a REB/Pyroblast split. This is not terribly important, but it does give you more of an edge in the corner case of the sideboard card being Extracted or targeted by a similar effect. I know it rarely happens, but that is not reason to lose sideboard advantage if/when it does.

4 Submerge
2 Rough // Tumble
2 Krosan Grip
2 Envelop
2 Pyroblast
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Sulfuric Vortex

What are we exploding in an engineered fashion other than Dredge zombie tokens and Animate Deads? This is a very odd choice and I would like to hear your logic on it.

apistat_commander

10-26-2012, 04:16 PM

I feel that this is a well rounded sideboard but I am considering cutting Engineered Explosives simply because it is too slow against some decks. I like that I have a lot of solid cards against the U/W-matchup since my meta is flooded with it, considering cutting explosives for 1 Sulfuric Vortex and 1 Pyroblast to get a better sideboard against U/W and RUG but then I will probably get raped by active mother of runes instead =(

That is why I am rocking the singleton Cursed Totem. All I have is aggro and control in my meta so my board beats those two. I feel like you need at least one more piece of aggro hate in your board be it Totem, Lavamancer, Sulfur Elemental, etc.

The NicFit MU is won by submerge and high tempo (mull everything down to a flying delver and submerge). Have we all agreed on that graveyard hate is a waste of slots or is it just you and me? Fringe decks like Reanimator and Dredge just has to be won against with the cards in hand. Here my Engineered Explosives is stellar though, taking care of zombies and Animate Deads.

The Nic Fit MU is also won by Stifling their Explorers so that they don't ramp into battlecruiser territory. Grave hate isn't worth it (in my meta). If I were playing in a larger tournament I would likely rock some mix of Cages + Crypts so that I don't autolose to GY decks. I may pay a small price for that, but you gotta do what you gotta do.

Shouldn't our counter spells and Submerges win this match up? Honestly, I am not sure of the archetype that you are describing here. Could you post a rough deck list here or a link, so that I can get a better of what type of deck this is? If you do, I might be able to get a feel for if there are any alternative ways to attack it that you had not already suggested.

Not really. All of their threats outclass ours and they can out-mana us with relative ease. Many of their threats leave value on the board even if you Submerge them. They don't have a ton of removal so you hope to kill them before they can get their engine going. The build I played against had the typical Nic Fit backbone (Veteran Explorer, Deed, GSZ, Therapy, Top), big green threats (Thragtusk, Huntmaster, Primeval Titan) a combo finish (Burning Wish, Scapeshift, Valakut), and a wishboard (Maelstrom Pulse, Chainer's Edict, various removal). Their deck is essentially designed to beat decks like RUG. I think you have to really prioritize your Stifle targets and play tight to get ahead. Even then I don't think you can make the MU better than 50/50 because we just don't interact well with their big mana dudes.

As for the 3rd REB/Pyroblast effect versus a 2nd Envelop, I would say it is rather meta dependent. Do you find your self wanting to counter Sorceries or blue cards (counter/destroy) more often? That likely solves your quandary. It is probably a nit picky point, but I would say regardless of your decision, you Pyrobasts should be a REB/Pyroblast split. This is not terribly important, but it does give you more of an edge in the corner case of the sideboard card being Extracted or targeted by a similar effect. I know it rarely happens, but that is not reason to lose sideboard advantage if/when it does.

Agreed on Ooze and LftL. Both are great cards, but just not in this deck. Unless the card really hoses a particular MU, I don't want to spend more than one mana on anything. Neither Ooze nor Loam really hose anything hard enough to be worth the extra slots.

I think that Pyroblast vs. Envelop comes down to what I am able vs. unable to beat. Against any type of blue deck I already have 5-7 cards that I can bring in between Pyroblast, Vortex, Grudge, and Submerge. However besides the 4 Submerge I don't really have much to bring in against wonky decks. I have consistently seen non-blue heavy sorcery decks in my meta so I will run it next week and see how it does. I feel like I am always sideboarding against what I lost to last week. However that may be correct in a local meta because you will see the same things/decks from week to week.

I am running Pyros because everything in my deck besides the duals is black border and I don't want to blow money on Beta REBs at the moment. One day when my tournament winnings are sufficient I will get them. Why play Magic if we can't have some vanity with our cards?

Sturtzilla

10-26-2012, 07:33 PM

I feel like I am always sideboarding against what I lost to last week. However that may be correct in a local meta because you will see the same things/decks from week to week.

That is typically solid analysis. After awhile you will get a feel for what your board should look like according to who shows up. You will remember who plays what decks and as such you can tweak your board for those specific match ups. This is what really helps make sure you can go X-0 to a prize split or 1st place. Of course every now and then some randoms will show up and potentially throw you off by playing something goofy, but you can always adjust from there.

I am running Pyros because everything in my deck besides the duals is black border and I don't want to blow money on Beta REBs at the moment. One day when my tournament winnings are sufficient I will get them. Why play Magic if we can't have some vanity with our cards?

Fair enough. I only own one Beta REB so if I go to 3 of these effects it is 1 REB and 2 Pyroblasts.

Water_Wizard

10-27-2012, 03:17 AM

The Nic Fit MU is also won by Stifling their Explorers so that they don't ramp into battlecruiser territory. Grave hate isn't worth it (in my meta). If I were playing in a larger tournament I would likely rock some mix of Cages + Crypts so that I don't autolose to GY decks. I may pay a small price for that, but you gotta do what you gotta do.

+1 Nic Fit needs 4+ lands to work effectively. They run a minimum of 7 basics, so Wastelands are not as effective. Nic Fit also runs a minimal amount of fetchlands. It is imperative to Stifle the Veteran Explorer trigger.

This trigger is activated via flashback on Cabal Therapy, Volrath's Stronghold, or blocking.

Either keep Veteran Explorer off the board or Stifle the effect. If you can land an early threat and keep them from developing, the game should be yours before turn 10.

Sturtz - the NicFit thread is here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Deck-Nic-Fit-(GBW-Explorer-Zenith-Control)

There are quite a few versions. The original version is GB. There are also WBG, BUG, and RBG versions. The WBG versions usually rely on Academy Rector to abuse cards like Moat and Recurring Nightmare. The BUG versions usually rely on Gifts Ungiven. The RBG version usually runs Huntmaster of the Fells, Burning Wish, and sometimes Scapeshift and Valakut.

It's interesting to see so many people run with no graveyard hate. I agree, Scavenging Ooze is too expensive, but I always run at least 3 pieces of dedicated hate (usually 2 Tormod's Crypt and 1 Surgical Extraction - I use Surgical Extraction as double duty vs. combo and UW, usually boarding out all of my burn).

useL

10-27-2012, 04:24 AM

What are we exploding in an engineered fashion other than Dredge zombie tokens and Animate Deads? This is a very odd choice and I would like to hear your logic on it.

Targets include:

Flipped Delver
Nimble Mongoose
Angel tokens
Counterbalance (cmc=whatever you want, since its on the stack etc)
Batterskull token

Mother of runes
Noble hierarch (preferably both at the same time as the mother)
Scavenging Ooze
Sylvan Library
If lucky, even a knight of the reliquary

Zombie tokens
Flying pesky 1/1 lingering souls
Equipments of all sorts (jitte preferably)

18 goblins that pop up round 1 or 2 with a storm deck

Vial on 1

Merfolks = 80% of decks threats is CMC2.

Is this enough or do you need more examples? I find the card very diversed but a bit slow to bring in against RUG and faster decks.

Sturtzilla

10-27-2012, 09:26 AM

Sturtz - the NicFit thread is here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Deck-Nic-Fit-(GBW-Explorer-Zenith-Control)

There are quite a few versions. The original version is GB. There are also WBG, BUG, and RBG versions. The WBG versions usually rely on Academy Rector to abuse cards like Moat and Recurring Nightmare. The BUG versions usually rely on Gifts Ungiven. The RBG version usually runs Huntmaster of the Fells, Burning Wish, and sometimes Scapeshift and Valakut.

Thanks! I have seen the GB, WBG, and BUG versions. I hadn't actually seen this Jund version or the Scapewish terminology. Seems clunky. I agree that Stifling the Explorer trigger seems really powerful. Seem like we should be playing the same game versus them as most control decks. Prevent them from developing a land base (Stifling fetches, Wasting nonbacis, and Stifling Veteran Explorer), countering key spells (VE, Huntmaster, GSZ etc.), and applying pressure with our cheap threats.

Is this enough or do you need more examples? I find the card very diversed but a bit slow to bring in against RUG and faster decks.

It just seems rather clunky to me. A lot of the time you will invest a turn and X mana to play it, then not be able to pop it in the same turn. I do like the flexibility it gives. I have been playing them in both of my UW decks (Stoneblade and Miracles) so I fullying understand the power and flexibility they give. I just wonder if EE is better than all of the other options we have. I would also be concerned that it would get Stifled in the mirror... which seems pretty bad. I think it warrants testing before I write it off, but I am pretty happy with where my board is for my local meta.

ThomasDowd

10-27-2012, 01:59 PM

Pyroblast> REB you can cast it to give mongoose threshold if you need to. i have targeted a top before to do this since the card was sitting dead in my hand and i wanted him dead faster.

Mike_

10-29-2012, 07:25 AM

Hi everybody, I have recently built a RUG deck, and won a local tournament with it about a week ago. :smile: However, I think Merfolk and UWr Miracles seem to be pretty tough matchups, so any suggestions how to improve them? Also, Thought Scour seems somewhat sub-par, I think I have more often pitched it to FOW or shuffled it back to deck instead of actually casting it.

Anyways, this is the list I'm running. Right now I'm thinking about cutting Thought Scour and adding fourth Stifle and something else. Also, maybe I should cut Surgical Extraction in board to add second Red Elemental Blast?

Spells:
4x Force of Will
3x Spell Pierce
4x Daze
3x Stifle
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
2x Forked Bolt
2x Thought Scour

Creatures:
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Tarmogoyf

Lands:
3x Volcanic Island
3x Tropical Island
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Wasteland

Sideboard:
3x Submerge
1x Red Elemental Blast
2x Pyroblast
3x Tormod's Crypt
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Rough / Tumble
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Grim Lavamancer

alekill

10-29-2012, 10:46 AM

This is my list and what I think people should be running.

4 delver of secrets
4 nimble mongoose
4 tarmogoyf

4 force of will
3 daze
4 spell pierce
4 stifle
4 brainstorm
4 lightning bolt

4 ponder
3 forked bolt

8 blue fetches or 6 blue fetches + 2 wooded foothills
3 volcanic island
3 tropical island
4 wasteland

sideboard
2 envelop
3 flusterstorm
2 pyroblast
2 rough//tumble
6 cards of your choice

BKclassic

10-31-2012, 03:16 AM

So I am running approximately the same deck I think everyone else is:

18 Lands
12 Creatures (4 Tarmogoyf)
8 Cantrips
5 Burn (1 Forked Bolt)
17 Counters (4 FoW, 4 Daze, 4 Stifle, 3 Spell Pierce, 2 Spell Snare)

The reason I am posting is to discuss the SB, here is what I am running now:
4 Submerge
2 Forked Bolt
3 REB
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library

Forked Bolt- After some thinking and playtesting, I think Forked Bolt is easily the best option for additional red removal in the SB. Rough/Toumble is obviously stupid good against tribal aggro, however it doesn't solve the Lingering Souls problem and is only okay against Maverick (not a great answer to Thalia, doesn't answer Scryb Ranger). Grim Lavamancer is almost amazing but Goblins can often answer it and it shrinks our graveyard against Esper Stoneblade with Lingering Souls where we need our Mongeese to have threshold. Sulfur Elemental blows, its too narrow and too expensive. Forked Bolt deals with Lingering Souls and is solid against Maverick. It is good but not amazing against Goblins and Elves, but combined with Stifle and Submerge, those match ups are winnable.

Null Rod- The Rod has been extremely good for me, the virtual card advantage is insane. Against a lot of decks you hit their broken enabler (Sensei's Divining Top or Aether Vial) as well their speed bumps (Relic, EE). Obviously hitting equipment and helping out against Storm Combo is great, too. I especially recommend cutting an Ancient Grudge for Null Rod in decks running 2 Spell Snare since you will already have a few more answers to Chalice at 1.

Sylvan Library- Not exactly new tech, but I think Sylvan Library is definitely better than Sulfuric Vortex. Vortex is a strain on the deck's manabase and, unlike Library, doesn't help against Storm, High Tide and Show and Tell.

Water_Wizard

10-31-2012, 04:35 AM

1 Null Rod

Null Rod- The Rod has been extremely good for me, the virtual card advantage is insane. Against a lot of decks you hit their broken enabler (Sensei's Divining Top or Aether Vial) as well their speed bumps (Relic, EE). Obviously hitting equipment and helping out against Storm Combo is great, too. I especially recommend cutting an Ancient Grudge for Null Rod in decks running 2 Spell Snare since you will already have a few more answers to Chalice at 1.

Sylvan Library- Not exactly new tech, but I think Sylvan Library is definitely better than Sulfuric Vortex. Vortex is a strain on the deck's manabase and, unlike Library, doesn't help against Storm, High Tide and Show and Tell.

Thanks for the recommendation for Null Rod. It makes sense, if your meta supports it. Can you think of any match-ups where you would want to play both Null Rod and Tormod's Crypt? I couldn't think of any off the top of my head.

I usually cut Sylvan Library vs. combo decks. I've even heard of players who cut some number of 'Goyfs vs. combo decks, especially on the draw. The reason being is that you don't want to tap out on turn 2. I'm curious what you think about this. Many times vs. combo decks, I will try to land a threat on turn 1 and then ride it to victory. I realize this can be risky, as I am diluting my threat base. With your build, I could see cutting Burn spells and adding 3 REB plus 1 Sylvan Library vs. these decks.

Goosen

10-31-2012, 07:14 AM

Thanks for the recommendation for Null Rod. It makes sense, if your meta supports it. Can you think of any match-ups where you would want to play both Null Rod and Tormod's Crypt? I couldn't think of any off the top of my head.

Storm decks.

catmint

10-31-2012, 08:09 AM

Null Rod + Gy hate is also good vs. painted Stone or some kind of Chalice Deck using gy recursions.

But the more important question: Is Null Rod better than Needle? I was playing with Pithing Needle a bit since it has lots of very good targets in the current meta, but then eventually cut it again for more specific miracle hate like Vortex, Krosan Grip or Envelop. Don't think Null Rod is a better choice given it costs more and is less flexible:

Vs. Miracles Null Rod likely won't be much better than Needle in terms of artifact hate since E. Explosives is not heavily used, but you can also name Jace with it.

Vs. Stoneblade Null Rod does not turn off your #1 Problem which is SFM into Batterskull, but Needle hits SFM & Jace, while still beeing able to turn off E. Explosives.

Vs. Maverick: Null Rod is useless. Needle on mother, ooze, knight can be quite lifesaving/winning.

Vs. GBx (BUG, Nic Fit): Deed and Liliana are good targets - Null Rod a dead card.

Needle does of course nothing against LED, but that is not my main concern deciding my SB slots.

Goosen

10-31-2012, 09:04 AM

Vs. Miracles I would prefer Null Rod because just dont take care of EE it works on Relic too.

Vs. Stoneblade Maybe Needle is little bit better but I am not sure if I would sb in any of them anyways. Maybe Null Rod if I know they will bring in Relic.

Vs. Maverick: Null Rod is not useless, take care of jittes. But I would not sb in either Null Rod or Needle, so dasent really matter.

Null Rod is very good against MUD, UB Tezzeret or Affinity can even maybe be game. More power but less versatile.

But targets that Null Rod miss are deed, liliana and jace. Here Needle is not very good either because your have to play before to get the full value and then you have to guess what they have in there hand.

catmint

10-31-2012, 10:08 AM

Goosen

10-31-2012, 10:47 AM

vs. Miracles: Explosives and Relics are random 1ofs - it is a nice addon that if you play null-rod they activate their top in response - you are 1 card down but you hate out their tops and random artifacts.
The nice addon of needle is that there wil be occasions where shutting down a jace is important. Does not make too much of a difference.

The same appies when you play needle they can respon, but they need a fetch to shuffle it away thou. Yeah maybe EE and Relic are 1 ofs but 2x1 makes it 2. And they can find it with Trinket Mage. But agree it not much differences.

vs. Maverick:
You would not side in Needle against Maverick if you would have them in the board? May I ask which other card you would play in the MD instead of 1-2 needles?
Sure Needle does not always trade 1 for 1, but if they are stuck with a couple of vanilla 1/1 (mother) or 2/2 (ooze) I would take the trade of beeing a card down. Both mother & ooze are insanely good versus us and their go-to early ground defense.
Lets take BKclassic sb, I think this cards are better 4 Submerge, 2 Forked Bolt and 1 Sylvan Library(not 100% sure about it but atleist on play). But I guess on draw I can sb in the needle, but never on play. But its not a big thing because they can destroy it or as mention you are one card down.

Sure Null Rod is better against artifact decks & ANT, but these fringe decks should not be your main concern. Deed decks however often rely on their 1st deed to stabilize, so you don't need to be a sidekick to name deed after playing 2 creatures against a GB control deck.
Should be as atleist as much concern as GB control deck imho. I rather have a really good sb card against a couple of decks then a modest one against a few more.

Anyway the only reason why I would justify playing something reactive/rather narrow like needle/null rod is because it has good applications against different very popular decks. And with Null-Rod beeing not playable against Maverick and mediorce to bad versus Stoneblade while Needle beeing pretty good against Maverick & Stoneblade, I would go for needle.
"pretty good" that I will not even sb in seems like a very bad one. :-) I see 5 cards that is better in BKc. sb 3 REB 1 Ancient Grudge 1 Sylvan Library, but I dont see I wanna sb out more then that not even on draw.

Sturtzilla

10-31-2012, 11:44 AM

@ Null Rod/Sideboard Discussion

I can see where Null Rod could be useful but aren't there just better things to devote our sideboard slots to? I mean there are more creature oriented activated abilities that we would typically want to counter. However not many people are playing Cursed Totem unless their meta is totally overrun with Maverick. My feeling is that there are a few cases where Null Rod is pretty awesome but then again we play a deck chocked full of counter magic, and as such, we should probably just counter the key artifact or two that you are worried about your opponent activating.

@ Everyone

Another week has past and another weekly event has transpired. I went 3-1 this week and placed 3rd. It was good for $10, which is twice the entry, so while not as awesome as a few of my past records, it was still a fine finish.

Round 1: Mono White Casual - (2-1)

This match was interesting. This event was this player's first foray into Legacy and I think he said only his second real tournament. He was playing an interesting mono white deck that had elements of Soul Sisters and just a casual white deck. Game 1 I managed to get him to single digit life values, then he stabilized behind a Soul's Attendant, Ajani's Pridemate, and a Wall of Reverence. So as you can see the idea of the deck was to gain life and make big guys. It is aslo worth noting that there were various angels in the deck none really worth mentioning. I sideboarded as the following: +2 Rough/Tumble, +1 Sulfuric Vortex, +2 Krosan Grip, -4 Stifle, -1 Spell Pierce. He also had a few artifacts and enchantments that had me a bit worried, so I brought in the grips for. Stifle and Spell Pierce weren't dead but both cards seems less than ideal when I drew them in game 1. Games 2 and 3 I was able to keep him from gaining too much life by countering/killing the Soul Wardens and Soul's Attendants. This really took the wind out of his sails. Both games 2 and 3 ended by my casting Rough to wipe his board and attack though unfettered for loads with large teams. At the finish of game 3, I had 3 threshed geese, 2 flipped delvers, and a goyf that was a 5/6 due to an enchantment I countered. He had gained a good bit that game but with a board like that it only took a few swings to undo all the life gain. I will say that I do not like facing Soul Sisters type decks. They are really a pain and can beat up on use pretty bad. Moreover, when someone has just their casual deck it can be really hard to correctly prioritize your removal and counter spells. This is what probably lost me game 1.

Round 2: RUG - (1-2)

This was strictly a matter of poor keeps. I got punished in games 1 and 3 for one landers. I was on the draw both times with cantrips and was able to find second lands but my opponent had the inherently better hands both games 1 and 3. It is worth noting that in game 2 my opponent Surgicaled my Trops and I still killed him. I am not a real big fan of that sideboard tech. I probably should have gone to 6 cards in games 1 and 3, but I am always worried about doing that in the mirror as each card is so important. However, if you can't play spells, I guess the number of cards you have is irrelevant.

Round 3: High Tide - (2-1)

This match was a lot of fun. I managed to apply early pressure in games one and three while disrupting my opponents library manipulation. This led to quick wins. I conceded game 2 because my opponent began to go off with a Defense Grid in play and I did not have enough land to counter effectively through grid. I think in game two, I kept a hand with 3 land some counter magic and a few cantrips. My cantrips led me to more cantrips and not threats and counters like I needed. For games 2 and 3 I brought in a REB and a Surgical Extraction for my maindeck Forked Bolt and a Lightning Bolt. It is worth noting here that as my meta had shifted back to being very aggro heavy, my sideboard does not have a lot of love for the combo match ups at the moment. I will probably remedy for the next event that I attend.

Round 4: Omni-Show - (2-1)

Game 1 my opponent had a hand with superior counter magic and was able to force through an Omniscience. He then proceeded to Burning Wish for Petals of Insight and kill me... I have to say that this is about the least fun way to die... it ranks right up there with a Show and Telled Emrakul. Anyway I went to the board and got my Surgical and REB. I brought them in for the Forked Bolt and a Lightning Bolt. Games 2 and 3 both transpired with me landing early threats and disrupting his key plays, Show and Tell, Jace, Burning Wish, etc. I was able to plink away at his life totals both games and take home the match.

I will say that last night I played from behind every round but the High Tide match and that made the evening a lot more stressful. My only match loss was to the mirror which I think boiled down to a lot of luck. He and I sideboarded the same way too actually with the exception of a Life from the Loam on his part. I am not really a fan of LftL in the mirror, as you have to have two land, it likely gets countered the first time. It can give you some great card advantage but it is slow grinding card advantage that requires a Brainstorm to be really good. I would appreciate others thoughts on this. Also if you guys could give what you think the ideal configuration post board would be for this match up, I would appreciate it. I might need to focus on this as 2 other RUG players have now been showing up consistently, so it is a match up that I really should have some devoted tech and a comprehensive board plan for. Typically I do -4 FoW, -2 Spell Snare; +4 Submerge, +2 Flex Slots. Those are usually something like REB/Pyroblast, Ooze, and LftL. What do you guys do?

BKclassic

10-31-2012, 11:46 AM

@Water-Wizard- I might be wrong about boarding in Sylvan Library against Storm. I usually board out a couple Mongeese against Show and Tell, High Tide and Storm based on the idea that they are a pretty slow clock and more controlling elements would be better. I can see why this might be wrong against Storm, although I can't remember the last time I lost to Storm.

I've never had any problems with Rod shutting off Crypt. Null Rod is better than Tormod's Crypt against Storm, so I don't think that's an issue. One thing I might do anyway is cut the 3 Crypt for 2 Scavenging Ooze and a third Forked Bolt or something else in the board.

@Catmint- Vs Miracles: Boarding Null Rod and Sylvan Library is enough to make the Miracles match up winnable, and Pithing Needle just doesn't quite get the job done, as Needle on Top is easily remedied by EE for them. Being able to shut off EE and Top at the same time is pretty big game, although it was slightly better before Rest in Peace when they ran Relic of Progenitus.

Vs Stoneblade: Null Rod is pretty strong here. You can shut off a bunch of singletons (Jitte, EE, Top) and makes it so Batterskull can be kept at bay by Tarmogoyf or Stifle, we have plently of answers to Stoneforge and Jace.

Vs Maverick and GBx- Indeed, Null Rod doesn't do much here. However, the 7 Burn + 4 Submerge plan against Maverick is pretty good. If GBx and Liliana matter more in your meta than the gains the Rod gets you against Miracles, Stoneblade, and Goblins (and to a lesser extent Merfork, Affinity and Storm), than I would agree Pithing Needle makes sense.

The key to understanding Null Rod is that it replaces the second Ancient Grudge to help against Stoneblade, Miracles and Goblins. If you weren't running the second Ancient Grudge, then it may not be worth running.

wcm8

10-31-2012, 10:57 PM

One idea I'd like to put forth that's been working fine for me is cutting Submerge from the SB. Now, it really is meta-dependent, but I am finding that spending those slots on other forms of aggro hate has been working out well. Stuff like Dismember, Grim Lavamancer and Mind Harness are arguably more versatile against an open field, and can occasionally be far more devastating. Submerge is very important against the mirror (and against Knight of the Reliquary decks to some extent), but if you are one of the few RUG players in your local meta I would try changing these slots around. Going 'next level' in Magic is often the result of slaying some sacred cows.

Oh, and Tormod's Crypt really does seem to be the best GY hate available for this deck. Against Dredge and Reanimator (current DTBs), and also some decks like Lands, not having to expend any mana for a complete GY wipe is really effective. It's really great to be able to Ponder/Brainstorm into it in the early turns, or also be able to deploy a threat or hold up mana for a counterspell. But this too really depends on your expected meta, as certain cards serve as splash hate (e.g. Scavenging Ooze against aggro, Grafdigger's Cage against Snapcaster/Lingering Souls, and Surgical Extraction against some forms of combo and control.)

Finally, I've been liking Krosan Grip lately. Having an out to Counterbalance, a resolved Batterskull, possibly being able to recover from Sneak Attack/Omniscience etc. makes it worth the 3 mana I think.

Mark Sun

10-31-2012, 11:18 PM

@Sturtzilla: I'd rather keep in 2 FoW on the draw against the mirror if possible, it does help from a tempo standpoint, in my opinion. Snare is also a house against Tarmogoyf, which arguably is one of the keys to the matchup.

Goosen

11-01-2012, 12:59 PM

...possibly being able to recover from Sneak Attack/Omniscience etc. makes it worth the 3 mana I think.

Is it worth sb in even? Cant really beat any of those, only if he is tapped out with sneak attack or have to go for burning wish kill with omniscience.

Water_Wizard

11-01-2012, 02:54 PM

Vs. Stoneblade Null Rod does not turn off your #1 Problem which is SFM into Batterskull, but Needle hits SFM & Jace, while still beeing able to turn off E. Explosives.

But it does keep Batterskull on the board so you can blow it up with Ancient Grudge.

@ Null Rod/Sideboard Discussion

I can see where Null Rod could be useful but aren't there just better things to devote our sideboard slots to? I mean there are more creature oriented activated abilities that we would typically want to counter. However not many people are playing Cursed Totem unless their meta is totally overrun with Maverick. My feeling is that there are a few cases where Null Rod is pretty awesome but then again we play a deck chocked full of counter magic, and as such, we should probably just counter the key artifact or two that you are worried about your opponent activating.

Round 2: RUG - (1-2)

This was strictly a matter of poor keeps. I got punished in games 1 and 3 for one landers. I was on the draw both times with cantrips and was able to find second lands but my opponent had the inherently better hands both games 1 and 3. It is worth noting that in game 2 my opponent Surgicaled my Trops and I still killed him. I am not a real big fan of that sideboard tech. I probably should have gone to 6 cards in games 1 and 3, but I am always worried about doing that in the mirror as each card is so important. However, if you can't play spells, I guess the number of cards you have is irrelevant.

Typically I do -4 FoW, -2 Spell Snare; +4 Submerge, +2 Flex Slots. Those are usually something like REB/Pyroblast, Ooze, and LftL. What do you guys do?

I thought Cursed Totem really came about due to the Elves match up? Either way, it is good against both Maverick and Elves.

Play/Draw is huge vs. the mirror. I don't have any statistics, but if you kept the same hands on the play, your games very much may have turned out differently. Daze and Stifle gain value on the play, while Wasteland loses value on the draw.

I've given up on Ooze, but I still keep LftL on the fringe. It usually makes my sb as one of the last cards.

@Water-Wizard- I might be wrong about boarding in Sylvan Library against Storm. I usually board out a couple Mongeese against Show and Tell, High Tide and Storm based on the idea that they are a pretty slow clock and more controlling elements would be better. I can see why this might be wrong against Storm, although I can't remember the last time I lost to Storm.

That's the one reason I still run Thought Scour - to quickly grow Mongoose. Thought Scour became popular during the rise of Sneak & Show around May-June 2012. Though Scour allows you to Thres a 'Goose by turn 3. Without Thought Scour, your 'Geese remain 1/1's for too long and should probably be cut vs. combo decks.

One idea I'd like to put forth that's been working fine for me is cutting Submerge from the SB. Now, it really is meta-dependent, but I am finding that spending those slots on other forms of aggro hate has been working out well. Stuff like Dismember, Grim Lavamancer and Mind Harness are arguably more versatile against an open field, and can occasionally be far more devastating. Submerge is very important against the mirror (and against Knight of the Reliquary decks to some extent), but if you are one of the few RUG players in your local meta I would try changing these slots around. Going 'next level' in Magic is often the result of slaying some sacred cows.

This is an interesting idea and thank you for raising it. I also toy around with adding a number of Blue Elemental Blasts / Hydroblasts. I face a lot of Goblins, where Submerge is not so good, but Mind Harness and BEB/HB are good. BEB/HB is also good vs. Omni-Tell.

I don't like Dismember just due to the -4 life. While it is one of our only answers to a 'Goyf, Submerge, Mind Harness, and Spell Snare do just as well.

@Sturtzilla: I'd rather keep in 2 FoW on the draw against the mirror if possible, it does help from a tempo standpoint, in my opinion. Snare is also a house against Tarmogoyf, which arguably is one of the keys to the matchup.

I bring in all my REB/PB because they stop Delvers and cantrips (stopping a needed Brainstorm or Ponder is huge in the mirror!). On the play, I take out all 4 FOW and some number of Forked Bolt / Lightning Bolt / Spell Pierce. On the draw, I leave in 2-3 FOW and remove some number of Daze / Spell Pierce / Burn. I don't play with Spell Snare, but if I did, I would leave it in (however, you are really only looking at 4 targets, so it seems narrow).

I cut some burn, especially Forked Bolt, because there are really no targets. Goyf is usually too big and better answered by a Submerge or Mind Harness and Delver can be answered by a REB / PB.

I don't like Spell Pierce in the mirror because what are you Spell Piercing? Submerge, you can play around. Cantrips, you are better off using REB / PB. Stifle, crack your fetches on their upkeep - if they Stifle them, at least you've tied up their mana for a turn. I'll leave in a couple of Spell Pierce on the play and substitute those for FOW on the draw.

ptahetep

11-02-2012, 08:24 AM

Hi, I have seen Vendilion Clique in a few sideboard recently.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9424&iddeck=68819
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9371&iddeck=68449

Anyone with success with it? For what match-up you brought it in? I am curious to better understand your tought process. It is an original choice for me.

Thanks,

dunk

11-02-2012, 08:55 AM

Well, "original"... Clique often saw maindeck play before the days of Delver - it's hardly anything new. Anyway, it's still a good card against combo, Terminus and SFM. Big trouble is cc of 3, which makes it quite a gamble against combo and SFM - so I think it's mainly an anti terminus anti counterbalance anti jace card.

apistat_commander

11-02-2012, 09:59 AM

I went 3-1 at my locals again last night. Same MD as last week with the following SB:

1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Sylvan Library
2 Envelop
2 Pyroblast
4 Submerge
2 Rough//Tumble
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip

R1 - Mirror (2-1) - Out tempo G1 and 3. G2 I kept a 1 lander and was punished for it.
R2 - Punishing Mav (0-2) - G1 I kept a one Volc, one Waste hand on the draw and lose the game to a T2 Waste. G2 is a little bit more in my favor but I can't do anything against a resolved Jitte.
R3 - Lands (2-0) - He never sees Chasm/Maze and I get there with a Goose in G1 and a Delver in G2. Clutch Force on EE saves my ass in both games.
R4 - 12-post (2-0) - He is new to the deck and it shows. He can never really put together anything while I beat him to death with Delvers.

- So after two weeks of getting crushed by midrange Green decks, I think that I really need to devote more SB space to green creature hate. Rough//Tumble is great against swarm decks but pretty poor against all of the other creature based strategies. I was considering Mind Harness, Cursed Totem, or Gilded Drake. Harness seems pretty powerful for one mana, but I don't know how many turns I can afford the Upkeep cost against Wasteland decks. Cursed Totem wrecks Maverick but Knight is still bigger than all of your creatures. Gilded Drake seems good against the big bomb decks (Reanimater, 12-post, some variants of Nic Fit) but I don't know if I really want to give Maverick/other creature decks a 3/3 flyer. Suggestions?

- I am continually disappointed with expensive answer cards in the SB. Neither Krosan Grip nor Sulfur Elemental felt quick enough against the decks that I wanted them. I know that Grudge is less flexible than Grip but every time I actually want artifact removal, I really want it to be cheaper. Three mana spells are fine against Miracles but that is pretty much the only deck I can say that about (hence the Sulfuric Vortex being worth the slot). Sylvan Library was reactive/underwhelming all night. I think that I prefer SB cards that are more brutal (Pyroblast, Submerge, Vortex) and really give you a better shot at winning games.

- 2 Envelop is probably too many unless you expect to see a lot of Miracles. Even then, I would probably prefer having 3 Pyroblast effects as that deals with half of the threats that you are worried about and Stifle/Pierce/Force can pick up the rest.

- I play against a ton of Wasteland decks, so I am going to try a miser Life from the Loam in the board. I don't know if it will be any good but it seems like it is at least worth testing. I play fine off of a single land but resolving Loam once in the mirror should give you enough lands to pull ahead.

zerzab11

11-02-2012, 10:28 AM

Hey Guys,

I really like this deck and play it quite some time now, but never posted here. Some questions just popped up in my head so I wanted to share:

4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Misty Reinforest
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf

1 Sylvan Library
1 Counterspell

4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Fire// Ice
1 Dismember

Sideboard:

2 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Mind Harness
2 Submerge
2 Krosan Grip
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Rough// Tumble

I piloted this list to a 4-1 and two 3-2 finishes at my local Legacy event (~25 people). My meta doesnt consist of many GY-strategies so no GY-hate.

I really encountered some problems against BUG Decks, playing big threads. So i thought of swapping the Fire// Ice for a second Dismember to better combat Tombstalker, Goyfs and there like. For the Sideboard, I really dislike Mind Harness now, nothing feels more bad, than paying the Upkeep cost just to get it Abrupt Decay'd. Maybe Gilded Drake is really a possibiltiy, comboing very well with Submerge, against these kinds of decks? Or a third Dismember in the board?

On a more general note, normally you would say Tempo wins on the stack and after that on the board. But against Decks like Miracle or Control, or to a lesser extent Combo, I really dislike them putting lands into play and us having to follow with landdrops (to be able to Stifle or Tempo them out of the game), although we don't want to have 4 or 5 lands in play. I mean a situation where we have just laid two lands (because we're the tempo deck) but need more lands to play all of our Spells (or be Pierceproof) to combat theirs.

So maybe a split of permanent and Instant hate would be more sufficient. I thought of Pithing Needle and/ or Null Rod. Suggestions?

Greetings Johannes Gutbrod

Sturtzilla

11-02-2012, 03:34 PM

2 Tarmogoyf

I like the list but are a singleton Sylvan Library and Counterspell really worthwhile? Seems to me like you want MOAR TARMOGOYFS! I know I would want MOAR TARMOGOYFS!

@ Advice for Boarding in the Mirror

Thanks for the thoughts. I will try them out over the next few weeks to see how they work out.

BKclassic

11-03-2012, 02:34 AM

I like the list but are a singleton Sylvan Library and Counterspell really worthwhile? Seems to me like you want MOAR TARMOGOYFS! I know I would want MOAR TARMOGOYFS!

Running a copy or possibly two Counterspell in the sideboard is actually something that I want to try out. The card seems very good against UW Miracles and much less narrow than Envelop. It seems like it would be okay against Maverick and Junks decks where it would give you a way to counter their Swords to Plowshares and their diversity of threats without card disadvantage. It wouldn't hurt to bring it in against combo decks and seems pretty good against Elves where it gives us another counter to Glimpse of Nature.

Demonic_Attorney

11-03-2012, 08:55 PM

Running a copy or possibly two Counterspell in the sideboard is actually something that I want to try out. The card seems very good against UW Miracles and much less narrow than Envelop. It seems like it would be okay against Maverick and Junks decks where it would give you a way to counter their Swords to Plowshares and their diversity of threats without card disadvantage. It wouldn't hurt to bring it in against combo decks and seems pretty good against Elves where it gives us another counter to Glimpse of Nature.

Counterspell is played in next level thresh; however, they have 2-3 more blue coloured lands. Counterspell seems commensurate to FOW and perhaps better than Spell Pierce in non-combo matchups. That being said, I don't think it gets a spot in this deck as space is far too tight as it is and double blue in the early to mid game could be problematic more often than not.

Has anybody tried Thunderous Wrath instead of Chain Lightning or Forked Bolt? With Brainstorm and Sylvan Library it seems that it could be viable.

cheerios

11-04-2012, 05:05 AM

Since everyone is cutting the number of forked bolts, has anyone tried a single copy of rushing river? The card is a flexible answer to problem cards like counterbalance and chalice of the void game 1. On the other hand the card is costly and is not a permanent removal. Running two copies of dismember split in the md and sb seems to be quite ok in my testing.

Fossil4182

11-06-2012, 10:34 AM

- So after two weeks of getting crushed by midrange Green decks, I think that I really need to devote more SB space to green creature hate. Rough//Tumble is great against swarm decks but pretty poor against all of the other creature based strategies. I was considering Mind Harness, Cursed Totem, or Gilded Drake. Harness seems pretty powerful for one mana, but I don't know how many turns I can afford the Upkeep cost against Wasteland decks. Cursed Totem wrecks Maverick but Knight is still bigger than all of your creatures. Gilded Drake seems good against the big bomb decks (Reanimater, 12-post, some variants of Nic Fit) but I don't know if I really want to give Maverick/other creature decks a 3/3 flyer. Suggestions?

- I am continually disappointed with expensive answer cards in the SB. Neither Krosan Grip nor Sulfur Elemental felt quick enough against the decks that I wanted them. I know that Grudge is less flexible than Grip but every time I actually want artifact removal, I really want it to be cheaper. Three mana spells are fine against Miracles but that is pretty much the only deck I can say that about (hence the Sulfuric Vortex being worth the slot). Sylvan Library was reactive/underwhelming all night. I think that I prefer SB cards that are more brutal (Pyroblast, Submerge, Vortex) and really give you a better shot at winning games.

- 2 Envelop is probably too many unless you expect to see a lot of Miracles. Even then, I would probably prefer having 3 Pyroblast effects as that deals with half of the threats that you are worried about and Stifle/Pierce/Force can pick up the rest.

- I play against a ton of Wasteland decks, so I am going to try a miser Life from the Loam in the board. I don't know if it will be any good but it seems like it is at least worth testing. I play fine off of a single land but resolving Loam once in the mirror should give you enough lands to pull ahead.

With all the discussion surrounding sideboard construction, I thought it might be helpful to list the sideboards from the 1st and 2nd place decks from the latest SCG Open:

Sideboard:
1 Gilded Drake
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
4 Submerge
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Life from the Loam

Sideboard:
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Krosan Grip
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Submerge
1 Life from the Loam
2 Rough / Tumble

With regard to the Maverick matchup, its worth noting that both decks also played 1 Dismember and 2 Forked Bolt in the maindeck. Both of those choices seem to be concessions to the Maverick match up. If Knight of the Reliquary is a persistent problem, I would suggest Scavenging Ooze as an alternative to the 4th Tarmogoyf given that it can eat lands out of your opponent's graveyard.

I'm not sure what your maindeck burn package looks like but a minimum of 2 Forked Bolt and perhaps the addition of Dismember combined with a more focused sideboard may help improve the matchup. Looking over the sideboards from the top decks this weekend, it would seem that

4 Submerge, and perhaps Grim Lavamancer and Sulfur Elemental are the routes to take post game one. The Maverick matchup is very difficult and play testing, more than deck construction, will help increase your win percentage.

apistat_commander

11-06-2012, 01:41 PM

With regard to the Maverick matchup, its worth noting that both decks also played 1 Dismember and 2 Forked Bolt in the maindeck. Both of those choices seem to be concessions to the Maverick match up. If Knight of the Reliquary is a persistent problem, I would suggest Scavenging Ooze as an alternative to the 4th Tarmogoyf given that it can eat lands out of your opponent's graveyard.

I have tried Ooze a few times and I was always disappointed. Against most of the decks where I wanted him, my opponents could Waste me off of green mana pretty easily. I just don't think that Ooze fits with how I play the deck.

I'm not sure what your maindeck burn package looks like but a minimum of 2 Forked Bolt and perhaps the addition of Dismember combined with a more focused sideboard may help improve the matchup. Looking over the sideboards from the top decks this weekend, it would seem that 4 Submerge, and perhaps Grim Lavamancer and Sulfur Elemental are the routes to take post game one. The Maverick matchup is very difficult and play testing, more than deck construction, will help increase your win percentage.

I am currently down to one Forked Bolt main. The Spell Snares offer more value in most of my MUs and I just don't see enough creature decks to warrant additional removal. I really like Forked Bolt but it simply didn't do enough against most of the decks I face. I was hoping to gain my edge mainly out of the SB, but I may need to adjust the mainboard and go back to a 4 Pierce/2 Forked Bolt set up. I was probably playing less than optimally. As I noted in my report, I kept a one-land hand on the mistaken impression that Punishing Mav didn't have space for Wastes. I was wrong and got crushed because of it.

catmint

11-06-2012, 05:32 PM

I've played a lot against maverick and my conclusions are:

It is a pretty tough matchup that I respect in the european meta. Good players will know how to beat RUG and you need to play very tight and design MD & SB optimal to try to get even. A positive matchup is hardly possible.

Concerning the strategy:

Delver is gold; especially early. Defending Delver with Pierce/Force is more important than in other matchups. LIke goose beeing the best creature against UW decks, flying is delvers big asset, since they have so many ground creatures. They have inevitability and once fallen behind it is pretty tough to come back. Wins are mostly not clear wins like crushing them and it usually feels like it is juuust enough tempo/life loss advantage before they stabalize. On the other hand they will have wins where they just crush you...

Concerning specific card choices:

Fire//Ice is bad, because it costs 4 under a thalia.

Forked Bolt is good, but most of the time you cannot wait for the 2 for 1. Mother thalia have to be killed on site and it is also sometimes correct to kill hierarch immediately.

Altough Stifle has more targets you can imagine, it is not effective in disrupting the opponents mana development (where it would be helpful). All other stifle targets are a net loss of cards and usually a desperate play. People will remember stifling a mother or a trigger of jitte for the win, but these situations are ultra-narrow and not a result of a favourable game state.

Force of Will is very good! Protecting your threat by countering swords or a goundblock is winning. The 2 for 1 is ok when gaining enough tempo. We cannot just trade 1:1 like against other decks and just play another creature, since they stabalize better.

Spell Pierce: I like Pierce over Snare, altough snare has its merits against Thalia. To me Piercing their Swords & Path on my delver is way more important.
Also GSZ, Jitte & Sylvan are super good targets.

Daze: Good on the play - bad on the draw! duuuh... but this is more true here than against other decks.

Nimbe Mongoose & creatures: I've heard people say "cut him", but I find him better than Goyf. They both loose to ooze & knight and if threshold is reached win against the rest. Mongoose being cheaper and not targetable makes him better imo. Anyway all creatures have to stay in for threat density.

Never played Ooze, because of his general antisynergy with the deck. Th plan to beat a knight like this won't work too much I think. Not enough mana...

SB:
Grim Lavamancer: Did not test him too much. Similar to Oooze I don't like the antisynergy of it beeing manaintensive - not to speak of mongoose. So I tried him instead of mongoose from the board but the poblem is - you kill something - they play something... it will never stop until your GY is empty or their creatures are too big. So you need to attack while killing stuff anyway. So T1 Delver for sure, then they play mother, then you have to bolt or ponder for bolt,... no problem if you play turn 1 lavamancer, but how do you make sure you have 2 cards in GY wihtout casting a cantrip? Maybe you cannot play T2 Delver & activate lavamancer in turn 2 as well. Try it out and proof me wrong but I switched mongoose for lavamancer for a while and was not successful.

Submerge vs. Mind Harness
I play a 2/2 split
Mind Harness is the better card, because having a 2 for 1 for 2-3 turns can be the game ending play you need .
Intelligent also will play around submerge a lot and not activate their knight - it is also hardly necessary. Still Submerge is exactly what you need in terms of gaining the tempo advantage you need to win. My favourite target is dryad arbor.

Rough//Tumble.
I never wanted it - but think it is the best option. Very good against tribals - seldomly against maverick you cant get that much value because mother and thalia have to be killed on sight. Still it will do enough to deserve its spot.

Krosan Grip - dont bring it in. THeir 2-4 enchantments have to be countered. Sylvan LIbrary is in fact a negative tempo play and you can sometimes let it happen if you attack and have answers to their follow-up plays.

Sulfur Elemental: Decent, altough it is still tough to let a mother live - can only be done if you are sure of the mana. Problem is if they waste and/or play thalia you cannot cast your cantrips proberply to get the 3 mana. They might have enough time for ooze/knight and you suddenly lost. Meaning I would not lay all my eggs in the sulfur basket (unless safe or desperate) and use him as a lategame surprise kill + swam kind of thing.

My MD consists of
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
1 Dismember

SB
2 Submerge
2 Rough//Tumble
2 Mind Harness
which I bring in for - 4 Stifle & 2 Daze (draw), -1 Daze or 1 Spell Pierce (play)

If I expect more Maverick in my meta I would add more Submerge and also try out electrickery. 1 mana instant kill for their early stuff with a rare instant forked bolt effect for 2 mana.

ThomasDowd

11-06-2012, 06:52 PM

Mind harness also has serious upside versus goblins. holding lackey back for a few turns or having a blocker that isn;t blue and trades with piledriver is pretty awesome where submerge is dead in that match.

Vandalize

11-06-2012, 07:12 PM

Have people been trying Hidden Gibbons? I've used it for a while, and it was gold against mirror and cantrip-heavy decks (Stoneblade, UW Miracles and Combo in general). G for 4/4 Ape isn't a bad thing, and it's like an one-sided Standstill for the mirror.

My latest list doesn't include it though, here it is:

4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
2 Forked Bolt
1 Sylvan Library

SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Envelop
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Rough/Tumble
SB: 1 Krosan Grip

Seems good. Envelop is T3HSH1T in this latest metagame, with all those Terminus and Show and Tells. Spell Pierce is getting weaker and weaker, since everyone now expects it and plays arround it like there's no tomorrow (which isn't a bad thing, imho). If I were to put Hidden Gibbons in my sideboard again, it would be definetely: -3 Surgical +3 Hidden Gibbons, and just hope that I won't face any Dredge or Reanimator, lulz.

ThomasDowd

11-06-2012, 08:22 PM

SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Envelop
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Rough/Tumble
SB: 1 Krosan Grip

Seems good. Envelop is T3HSH1T in this latest metagame, with all those Terminus and Show and Tells. Spell Pierce is getting weaker and weaker, since everyone now expects it and plays arround it like there's no tomorrow (which isn't a bad thing, imho). If I were to put Hidden Gibbons in my sideboard again, it would be definetely: -3 Surgical +3 Hidden Gibbons, and just hope that I won't face any Dredge or Reanimator, lulz.

other than terminus and entreat what is envelop hitting that REB/pyro cannot that you care about, stifle also hits miracles? your storm match up is already very positive, GSZ is annoying but I don't think you are bringing it in vs those decks. I guess innocent blood maybe?

I do like hidden gibbons though (I have toyed with playing one) and I don't think you need that much grave hate. I go back and forth on grip and vortex, grip does answer alot but costs three, whereas vortex is another hard to deal with win condition that is good versus the slow control decks.

my board is similar (still in flux and changes weekly/ what I expect to see), my main is close to yours( -library, -1 daze +2 spell snare) before it was 4 pierce 3 daze 1 dismember, but I have been disappointed to draw it at times. although it does do a ton of work when it is relevant.

catmint

11-07-2012, 06:00 AM

Envelop is super good right now. Cannot be compared to red-blast at all. Sure Stifle also helps, but that does not mean that a 1 mana hard counters for the 6 game deciding spells against the best/most popular control deck is not a good idea. Also storm is not a "super positive" matchup and spell pierce is often awkward. Spell Snare is better that pierce in this matchup as a hard counter for their business: burning wish & Infernal tutor - Envelop does the same job. But more important than Storm is the popular Omnitell matchup. Overmaster + Burning Wish and Show & Tell himself are hit. Envelop is almost "strictly" better than pierce in this matchup and especially against overmaster pierce is awkward.

So to the question what are the important spells that envelop hit that red-blast does not:
Terminus
Entreat the Angels
Burning Wish
Infernal Tutor
Overmaster

and less popular
Faithless looting
All black discard and land distruction spells
Price of Progress and other burn shit

Miracles & Show & Tell is certainly something you want to prepare for and having a card that hits both matchups hard while beeing good against other less popular decks (storm, dredge, pox, burn, nic fit) make it a good sideboard choice.

Goosen

11-07-2012, 06:58 AM

"Envelop is super good right now. Cannot be compared to red-blast at all."

I agree with you catmint. At the same time some number of reb/pb is important too, but definitely a split between them.

"Also storm is not a "super positive" matchup and spell pierce is often awkward."

Once again I agree with you, would go so far as to say that it is not even good. Something between decent and good depends on the decklist ofcourse.

catmint

11-07-2012, 07:34 AM

True, I also play 2 red-blast. Envelop does not compete with red-blast imo, but more with flex slots like Krosan Grip, Sulfuric Vortex and stuff...

I am also surprised how clear I sometimes loose to a very skilled storm player with RUG. They have a lot of good tools either 7 chant effects or cabal therapy + other discard to attack our strategy of taxing counters. A good storm player also seems to have the optimal timing to go off exactly the turn before they would die. The biggest reason why storm is not more popular is because it is much more difficult to master. Neverteless I think it is an even fight if there is no skill advantage.

apistat_commander

11-07-2012, 12:51 PM

True, I also play 2 red-blast. Envelop does not compete with red-blast imo, but more with flex slots like Krosan Grip, Sulfuric Vortex and stuff...

Envelop is good but I would have to see a ton of Miracles before I would want to run more than a single copy. It does have some powerful applications (you missed Glimpse of Nature/Perish in your list) and I really love hard counters in this deck as people put most of their energy into playing around the taxing counters.

Hidden Gibbons is a powerful card but I just don't think it fills a need in the deck. It is awesome in the mirror but Submerges, REBs, and tight play are generally a solid strategy. It is pretty poor against aggro. It is okay against combo but additional countermagic is probably better as you don't want to give them the option of controlling your clock. It can up your threat density against control decks but depending on what you are facing there are probably more flexible answers you could be including in your board.

Fossil4182

11-08-2012, 05:24 PM

Envelope seems like an interesting sideboard option. However, I'm still a fan of REB and Flusterstorm over something narrow such as Envelope.

Red Elemental allows the RUG player to counter

Brainstorm
Force of Will
Spell Piece
Divert
Misdirection
Cunning Wish
Jace, the Mind Sculptor*
Delver of Secrets*
Any Merfolk*

in addition to:

Ponder
Preordain
Show and Tell
Time Spiral

*Targets REB can blow up once in play.

Anything that REB can't target (IE non Blue Instants and Sorceries) is covered by Flusterstorm. While Flusterstorm isn't a hard counter, I would contend its better post board than Envelope. In a traditional control deck, I would run Envelope since it answers a specific set of cards. However, two of the fundamental tenets of RUG is the flexibility of its cards and its ability to capitalized on tempo. Comparing Flusterstorm to Envelope, I do not think one could claim Envelope is strictly better than Flusterstorm. While Envelope is situationally preferable and a hard counter, I would prefer Flusterstorm for three reasons:

1. Flusterstorm has flexibility allowing it to be played in a plethora of match-ups. Any match up where one would want more copies of Spell Piece (to target Instant and Sorceries), Flusterstorm can be included and is always at least as good if not better than Spell Pierce.

2. Most of the time, Flusterstorm is functionally a hard counter. Combined with Stifle and Wasteland, Flusterstorm gets much more potent since in nearly all instances, your opponent will have to pay for Flusterstorm. In a tempo mirror or tempo/control match-up, Flusterstorm is one of the most effective counterspells because of how it can control the stack.

3. Flusterstorm is almost impossible to counter. As a result of the Storm mechanic, its nearly impossible to trade for Flusterstorm in a 1:1 ratio. For example, in the Show and Tell match-up, Envelope is countered by Red Elemental Blast (which is boarded in). However, Red Elemental Blast (and nearly every other counterspell) is mostly irrelevant against Flusterstorm. Flusterstorm is the most effective taxing counter because it forces your opponent to either pay mana or waste free counterspells to remove copies off the stack. The only cards that effectively trade with Flusterstorm are Mindbreak Trap (when free) and Flusterstorm. Even in the Miracles match-up, Flusterstorm allows RUG to potentially counter Miracles under a Counterbalance lock.

alekill

11-08-2012, 09:29 PM

I've been running envelop for a while now but I have a lot more combo in my area then most people.

Anyways to people having problems with the maverick/deadguy/death and taxes match ups try eletrickery. I know it seems dumb but it actually has some very important subtle aspects to it.

Most of the time we are using forked bolt or lightning bolt to kill a turn one mom so that we can use our non-red removal on other actual threats such as confidant, stoneforge, and ooze. Being one mana is very key here so that mother of runes doesn't untap. Instant speed is also nice even though it's usually irrelevant. Once you make it past turn one electrickery can still kill a thalia for 2 mana unlike rough//tumble but still has the capability of the small two for one blowouts against turn one hierarch/dryad arbor into turn two mom.

Electrickery isn't going to deal with a knight of the reliquary or scavenging ooze however and those are two very real very scary creatures for threshold. Usually my game plan is to just try and keep them on turn one or two by removing all their early guys and ignoring the big guy, if it manages to get past my counterspells, and hoping I get a submerge.

Vandalize

11-09-2012, 12:08 PM

alekill

11-09-2012, 03:44 PM

Flusterstorm sucks at countering Terminus. The counter-argument is: AH, STIFLE RAPES TERMINUS AS WELL. But Terminus is a mid-to-late game casting, and by then you should have already stifled some Fetchlands or Stoneforge Mystics, and Spell Pierce won't cover that. Against UW control, if they resolve Terminus (in turn 3, 4, 5), you just lost. They'll bring some Jace or Stoneforge action, and you're dead. It's THE most important spell to be countered in that matchup.

Envelop is better against UW, I think. Flusterstorm is better against combo, but we already have a pretty good matchup against combo, so I don't see it as necessary.

I have to completely agree with this. I run flusterstorm, envelop, and pyroblast in my sideboard but that's because I have a crazy combo meta. The flusterstorms are only coming in against combo. Against miracles the only cards we really care about are counterbalance and terminus if we think about it that way a mixture envelop, pyroblast, and stifle are the best ways to combat those cards.

Flusterstorm is nice since it really is hard to counter but it kind of sucks if it's the only counter in your hand. What can and will happen a lot is that they will miracle a terminus with two or three mana open and just pay two. Flusterstorm is good at the end of a counterwar but terrible when it's the only thing you have.

Fossil4182

11-09-2012, 07:35 PM

Flusterstorm sucks at countering Terminus. The counter-argument is: AH, STIFLE RAPES TERMINUS AS WELL. But Terminus is a mid-to-late game casting, and by then you should have already stifled some Fetchlands or Stoneforge Mystics, and Spell Pierce won't cover that. Against UW control, if they resolve Terminus (in turn 3, 4, 5), you just lost. They'll bring some Jace or Stoneforge action, and you're dead. It's THE most important spell to be countered in that matchup.

Envelop is better against UW, I think. Flusterstorm is better against combo, but we already have a pretty good matchup against combo, so I don't see it as necessary.

If RUG is playing in the mid-late game against UW control, then its already lost. Yes, Stifle can be used as an answer to Terminus, but in the same vein, allowing UW control to reach the late game means the RUG player is going to loose anyway. RUG doesn't have a true mid - late game plan; in this match up, RUG is the aggro deck.

The other counter argument is there is a high probability that by the mid - late game, the UW control player will have an active Counterbalance and Top in play. While Envelope is a hard counter, it is worthless under a Counterbalance lock. Flusterstorm can at least force them to pay for the mana and the RUG play can unload all of their dead cards in hand to increase the spell count even under a Counterbalance lock.

I'm also not convinced combo is a positive match-up for RUG. If the match-up is positive, its only by the narrowest of margins (probably 55 - 45). Even people who pilot RUG at a high level only put the match up at 50 - 50. Its even worse combo deck is running Silence or Orim's Chant.

catmint

11-09-2012, 08:01 PM

I disagree on the "you lost if you are in the mid to late game".

Depending on your hand you might not want to overextend - just make some damage fight over key spells (counterbalance, jace) - let him terminus your mongoose -> play another one. Let them play their 6+ lands, play with 3 lands and send the rest back - there you go "ancestrall recall". Postboard I minimize daze & spell pierce and win a fair share of long games!

If you always play like an aggro deck because you are sure to loose going late you might just really loose to 1 terminus resolving.

Water_Wizard

11-09-2012, 10:03 PM

I'm also not convinced combo is a positive match-up for RUG. If the match-up is positive, its only by the narrowest of margins (probably 55 - 45). Even people who pilot RUG at a high level only put the match up at 50 - 50. Its even worse combo deck is running Silence or Orim's Chant.

Arguably, RUG is what drove 'combo' out of the meta (when you refer to 'combo,' I assume you mean Storm). Thalia is the other factor, but she isn't seeing much play anymore and Storm decks are still non-existent.

Who are these people that put the match-up at 50-50? Silence and Orim's Chant are difficult to play around, and to a greater extent, Cabal Therapy (usually naming Force of Will), but RUG has enough of a clock and enough disruption to stop Storm.

When you board against Storm, you want to cut creatures and burn. You drop some number of Tarmogoyfs and perhaps Nimble Mongooses (depending upon whether or not you play Thought Scour). Only leave in burn if you know they are playing Dark Confidant or Xantid Swarm.

The strategy is to drop an early Delver or Thressed Goose and ride it to victory. With your hand manipulation (aka card selection), mana destruction (aka Wasteland), Stifle (stop fetchlands or Storm triggers), and your taxing and hard counters (Daze, Spell Pierce, Force of Will, Envelop, Flusterstorm, REB, PB, etc.), combined with a relatively fast clock, RUG should be better than 50-50 vs. Storm. At least it is in my experience, but maybe I'm not playing against the most experienced players.

The only thing worse for Storm than RUG is BUG because BUG has discard in addition to its fast clock. Decks like UW can be tough, but they have a slow clock and that slow clock gives the Storm player time to sculpt a strong hand.

Also, I just want to note that no match up (at least not between two tier I or tier II decks), is usually better than 60:40. There are extreme outliers, but most Magic matches, when you account for variance and take two competent pilots with properly constructed decks, are going to very somewhere between a 40-60 split. When you review the Hatfields' 'Too Much Information' on StarCityGames.com, the very best decks are always under 60% win-rate against the field. I realize individual match-ups will vary outside this range, but a 55-60% game-win percentage is very strong for any deck. RUG is usually at the top of the list when the Hatfields publish their analyses.

Sturtzilla

11-15-2012, 10:20 AM

Also, I just want to note that no match up (at least not between two tier I or tier II decks), is usually better than 60:40. There are extreme outliers, but most Magic matches, when you account for variance and take two competent pilots with properly constructed decks, are going to very somewhere between a 40-60 split. When you review the Hatfields' 'Too Much Information' on StarCityGames.com, the very best decks are always under 60% win-rate against the field. I realize individual match-ups will vary outside this range, but a 55-60% game-win percentage is very strong for any deck. RUG is usually at the top of the list when the Hatfields publish their analyses.

This is right on. For those of you out there that disagree, read this article. It might be a bit of work for those with limited mathmatical backgrounds, but the data doesn't lie.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/25150-Too-Much-Information-LA-Atlanta-And-Cincy-Legacy-Opens.html

On the topic of recent results, I went 3-1 this week at locals and ending in third place. It was one of those awkward three way ties for the 9 pointers... where I lost to a player who lost to a player that I beat. At any rate it was a good night.

Round 1: Pox - I was a little worried about this match up as both discard and land destruction can really cripple our deck. Contrary to my thoughts going into the match, I was able to counter basically every relevant spell my opponent cast while applying the beats in both games one and two. I think in the two games of 5-8 Pox and Smallpox cast, one Pox resolved. It actually hurt y opponent worse than me. I was able to only sac, one creature, land, and discard one land. He lost two lands and his last card. The life loss put him at lethal a turn faster. So this round ended 2-0.

Round 2: RUG - You guys know how the mirror works. My opponent won the die roll and had the burn to finish me off after I stablized in game one. I was able to kill all his dudes and keep a threshed goose and a goyf on the board. However when you are at single digit life, all it takes is a burn spell or two. Game two I think I cast 6-7 Tarmogoyfs. I saw all 4 of mine and had to recast them a few times due to Submerges. I was able to take that one down. In game three I got stuck in a tough spot with one goyf of my own and one that I had Mind Harnessed. My opponent had 3 tarmogoyfs... so this match up turned out to be based on who could draw the most Goyfs. He was able to power the win out in game three. I will note that Mind Harness did a considerable amount of work for me. If my opponent hadn't drawn, Gofy, Goyf... he would have been really dead. Sometimes that happens though. 1-2

Round 3: Pox - What is with this sudden incursion of Pox decks? Anyway game one my opponent is able to get a Nether Void to stick on turn two off of a Dark Rit. It is worth mentioning he Therapied a FoW out of my hand on turn one. I scooped at this point; however, in hindsight, I should have played it out as I had two lands in play and knew the top two cards of my deck were lands. My opponent was on one land. So I likely would have been able to cast things before he was. But I didn't want to durdle around. The next two games were pretty easy, I was able to counter all of his key spells while beating him down with duders. One notable play I made was a Brainstorm in response to an Inqusition of Kozilek. I found a FoW and two land. So my opponent got totally blanked and saw, Fetch, Fetch, Wasteland, and FoW. That was pretty awesome. 2-1

Round 4: Sam Black Zombies - What is with all of these discard decks? Easy mode... play guys, attack (their dudes are unable to block) and counter Lingering Souls if possible (as these silly spirit tokens can block). Your counter magic here is kind of weak as 8 of their threats can come right back from the graveyard. So your counter magic should be saved for their removal for your threats and Lingering Souls. Souls isn't really that good unless we are a Delver only plan. Anyway both games I was able to stick a few threats and just ride to a quick beatdown win. Game 2 was a bit closer. There was a good bit of combat math that had to be considered. But I was able to breakthrough both times. 2-0

So to further explain the final standings, the guy I lost to in the last round had beat the other RUG player who I had lost to. So the other RUG player ended first, the Zombies player ended second, and I ended third. It was a bit of a let down of a finish but still netting money/store credit is always a win, especially when you can do it in a Legacy event.

Edit: There is a local Legacy event in my hometown this weekend. It will be a largely unknown meta. The area doesn't have a large legacy following either, so I am guessing some of the decks will be incomplete/not tier one. As such, I figured I would ask the question here, what would you guys make your sideboard look like for an event like this? I am pretty sure two of my friends will be playing and they will likely be playing BUG Delver/Bant and Bant. Any thought would be appreciated. Thanks!

GGoober

11-16-2012, 05:12 PM

guillemnicolau

11-16-2012, 08:23 PM

I want Hidden Gibbons to be good. Always loved the card. However, Hidden Gibbons into a Terminus is pretty bad (kinda funny).
Yep, it would be funny if Terminus was an instant.
(Tsabo's Decree telling ape would work, if it was a playable card)

HulkFindItThisWay

11-22-2012, 03:48 PM

Water_Wizard

11-22-2012, 10:21 PM

What about the Nivmagus Elemental? I've been testing with it for a little bit and it seems pretty good. I'm currently trying the Elemental out instead of the Mongoose and I have Gitaxian Probe instead of Stifle. Using Flusterstorm and Probe to hit your opponent for 6 on turn 2 seems pretty strong. I haven't had the luxury of testing against too many UW Miracle decks yet but the few matches I played so far seemed positive. Thoughts?

This was discussed a few pages back. The general consensus was to keep Mongoose or even to run Nivmagus over 'Goyf, but it was generally decided to leave the deck alone. However, this seems to be the norm on the source - someone suggests something new, it is discussed, it is decided to stay with the old way until someone goes out and wins a tournament, and then everyone comes back and says it was his or her original idea to make the change.

Here is the only RUG deck I could find running Nivmagus: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9248&iddeck=67538 This player cut Goose and Spell Pierce for NE and Flusterstorm.

Let's look at pros and cons.

Pros: Niv pitches to FOW, can be put into play off any of our color-producing lands, and can quickly grow, but size is dependent upon counters, which disappear if NE leaves play. We are less-susceptible to Perish.

Cons: We lose Goose, which has shroud, but can take time to grow and is dependent upon the graveyard. We need to rearrange our spells to focus more on Storm-spells, such as Flusterstorm. Flusterstorm can be very powerful in some match-ups, but is generally narrower (doesn't hit artifacts, enchantments, or planeswalkers). In order for Flusterstorm to be effective, we need to have some interaction on the stack. Something to counter, enough extra copies of Flusterstorm to eat with NE, and a NE that doesn't get removed in response.

In a meta that was very combo heavy, I think NM is the way to go. Combo decks don't usually run creature removal, Flusterstorm is good in these match-ups, and growing NM quickly is good.

I found these UR decks here: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=0&nhigh=0&dlow=0&mlow=0&ylow=0&dhigh=0&mhigh=0&yhigh=0&player=&dname=&format=Legacy&aname=&main=nivmagus+elemental&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on

When you use Probe and FS, you cast Probe, target your own Probe with FS, eat the FS and FS copy, pumping your NE to 5/6, see your opponent's hand, and then draw your card? That seems pretty good, but I'm not really sure that's what a tempo deck wants to do. It sounds more like an aggro plan. Prove me wrong :)

Mark Sun

11-22-2012, 10:31 PM

Would never play the Nivmagus version of this at a larger event. Too much variance. I'll stick with Mongoose.

HulkFindItThisWay

11-22-2012, 11:00 PM

This was discussed a few pages back. The general consensus was to keep Mongoose or even to run Nivmagus over 'Goyf, but it was generally decided to leave the deck alone. However, this seems to be the norm on the source - someone suggests something new, it is discussed, it is decided to stay with the old way until someone goes out and wins a tournament, and then everyone comes back and says it was his or her original idea to make the change.

Here is the only RUG deck I could find running Nivmagus: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9248&iddeck=67538 This player cut Goose and Spell Pierce for NE and Flusterstorm.

Let's look at pros and cons.

Pros: Niv pitches to FOW, can be put into play off any of our color-producing lands, and can quickly grow, but size is dependent upon counters, which disappear if NE leaves play. We are less-susceptible to Perish.

Cons: We lose Goose, which has shroud, but can take time to grow and is dependent upon the graveyard. We need to rearrange our spells to focus more on Storm-spells, such as Flusterstorm. Flusterstorm can be very powerful in some match-ups, but is generally narrower (doesn't hit artifacts, enchantments, or planeswalkers). In order for Flusterstorm to be effective, we need to have some interaction on the stack. Something to counter, enough extra copies of Flusterstorm to eat with NE, and a NE that doesn't get removed in response.

In a meta that was very combo heavy, I think NM is the way to go. Combo decks don't usually run creature removal, Flusterstorm is good in these match-ups, and growing NM quickly is good.

I found these UR decks here: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=0&nhigh=0&dlow=0&mlow=0&ylow=0&dhigh=0&mhigh=0&yhigh=0&player=&dname=&format=Legacy&aname=&main=nivmagus+elemental&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on

When you use Probe and FS, you cast Probe, target your own Probe with FS, eat the FS and FS copy, pumping your NE to 5/6, see your opponent's hand, and then draw your card? That seems pretty good, but I'm not really sure that's what a tempo deck wants to do. It sounds more like an aggro plan. Prove me wrong :)

I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong here. I'm just trying to get a feel for how the deck can grow with the new toys available. I read the posts about the elemental a few pages back and it got me thinking. In the games that I've played it seems like I've struggled with getting to threshold while it is still relevant. I like the Goose a lot. I was just thinking about the immediate impact that Niv can have on the board. It does require a different game plan.

HulkFindItThisWay

11-22-2012, 11:05 PM

Would never play the Nivmagus version of this at a larger event. Too much variance. I'll stick with Mongoose.

How do you feel about using Dreadnaught as a budget replacement for Goyfs? 2 Dreadnaughts/2 Scavenging Ooze? Or what about Skyshroud War Beast? Anyone try that?

Mark Sun

11-22-2012, 11:13 PM

How do you feel about using Dreadnaught as a budget replacement for Goyfs? 2 Dreadnaughts/2 Scavenging Ooze? Or what about Skyshroud War Beast? Anyone try that?

The Dreadnoughts would make it a different kind of deck, I would imagine that you need more devotion the the 12/12 plan to make it work consistently.

I have played a build before with 4 Delver / 4 Mongoose / 2 Snapcaster with 2 GSZ and an Ooze in the sideboard. This was before Stifle got better though, so I'm unsure how good it would be now. Could probably play a Stifle build with 4 Delver / 4 Mongoose / 2 Clique and have similar results.

The only issue with Skyshroud War Beast would be that our mana denial plan would inadvertently shrink it. Might be going too deep.

HulkFindItThisWay

11-22-2012, 11:19 PM

The Dreadnoughts would make it a different kind of deck, I would imagine that you need more devotion the the 12/12 plan to make it work consistently.

I have played a build before with 4 Delver / 4 Mongoose / 2 Snapcaster with 2 GSZ and an Ooze in the sideboard. This was before Stifle got better though, so I'm unsure how good it would be now. Could probably play a Stifle build with 4 Delver / 4 Mongoose / 2 Clique and have similar results.

The only issue with Skyshroud War Beast would be that our mana denial plan would inadvertently shrink it. Might be going too deep.
I can't see playing the deck without the full 4 stifles. Too many targets for it. My thought was that you could use one of the flex spots (Forked Bolt or Spell Pierce) for a trickbind and use a couple of the Naughts. Turn 2 Naught with Daze or Force backup seems like it would win some games. Granted it can eat removal effectively giving them a two for one, which isn't exactly what you want to be doing. I suppose that you may just be spinning your wheels unless you fully commit to the Stiflenaught archetype.
2 Cliques seems like an idea.

Water_Wizard

11-22-2012, 11:39 PM

HulkFindItThisWay

11-22-2012, 11:57 PM

@ Hulk - sorry, I didn't mean 'prove me wrong' as a taunt, rather that I was interested to see you succeed with Nivmagus Elemental.

Hidden Gibbons is a possibility.

Scavenging Ooze.

I thought you were cutting Stifle for Probe?

Here are some RUG decks that utilize the Dreadnought-from-the-sideboard plan:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5964&iddeck=43240
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7591&iddeck=55148
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8227&iddeck=59985

As Mark noted, Dreadnought changes the deck. StifleNought or DreadStill (a UB shell) is probably more appropriate for abusing the Dreadnought cip effect.

Mongoose is too good vs. UW (that's why I run it). If you don't play against much UW, maybe other alternatives are worth a shot, namely V. Clique or Snapcaster Mage. If you have trouble growing Mongoose vs. combo decks, that's what Thought Scours are for.
I tried the deck cutting the stifles but I missed them way too much so I went back to them.
The UW decks that I have played against have been playing Rest in Peace main board with the tutor package. Once they realize I'm on RUG, they tutor it up and battle through to stick the RIP. Then, I loose. I've been running 1 thought scour lately. I've been taking a beating to UW and lost some close games against Omni-Tell. Kinda looking to tighten up against those matchups.

Mark Sun

11-23-2012, 12:10 AM

I tried the deck cutting the stifles but I missed them way too much so I went back to them.
The UW decks that I have played against have been playing Rest in Peace main board with the tutor package. Once they realize I'm on RUG, they tutor it up and battle through to stick the RIP. Then, I loose. I've been running 1 thought scour lately. I've been taking a beating to UW and lost some close games against Omni-Tell. Kinda looking to tighten up against those matchups.

When I picked up this deck a year ago I cut the Stifles immediately; after evaluation, too much Maverick and not enough utility at that point. A lot has changed since then and I agree right now if you are not building your deck with 4 Stifle to start you are doing it wrong.

RIP is one of this deck's biggest problems which is why I want to explore other options in the Tarmogoyf slot if I have to. Just as an aside at Gen Con this year I did play a build that utilized 3 Tarmogoyf and I was quite happy with it. In most matchups, I feel like this is a card you are not leaning on to win the game. You're either racing and protecting a Delver or play a Mongoose and riding it. Even against Combo I would prefer the 1cc threats to it. It's awkward when you generally need to tap out to play it and Spell Snare has been gaining more popularity lately. Would have to look at some more deck data but I have wondered if it is a card that can be eliminated all together.

Omni-Tell can be a bye or a huge thorn in your side depending on what your Game 2/Game 3 75 looks like. Sometimes you get the all creature hand with two burn spells and want to shoot yourself; it does happen. To consistently beat it I was playing 3 REB effects (which are subsequently really good against Miracles anyways) in addition to either 2 Flusterstorm or Flusterstorm + Envelop post-board and those games were fairly easy. If it is very popular in your metagame consider an Aethersnipe or Venser, Shaper Savant in addition to those cards. It will be able to buy you one full turn (or just end the game if they don't Griselbrand and draw 7). Either way the matchup should be pretty easy; they cannot win without resolving the card Show and Tell.

After experiencing some of the other decks, I'm pretty much back on the RUG plan for Baltimore.

HulkFindItThisWay

11-23-2012, 12:38 AM

When I picked up this deck a year ago I cut the Stifles immediately; after evaluation, too much Maverick and not enough utility at that point. A lot has changed since then and I agree right now if you are not building your deck with 4 Stifle to start you are doing it wrong.

RIP is one of this deck's biggest problems which is why I want to explore other options in the Tarmogoyf slot if I have to. Just as an aside at Gen Con this year I did play a build that utilized 3 Tarmogoyf and I was quite happy with it. In most matchups, I feel like this is a card you are not leaning on to win the game. You're either racing and protecting a Delver or play a Mongoose and riding it. Even against Combo I would prefer the 1cc threats to it. It's awkward when you generally need to tap out to play it and Spell Snare has been gaining more popularity lately. Would have to look at some more deck data but I have wondered if it is a card that can be eliminated all together.

Omni-Tell can be a bye or a huge thorn in your side depending on what your Game 2/Game 3 75 looks like. Sometimes you get the all creature hand with two burn spells and want to shoot yourself; it does happen. To consistently beat it I was playing 3 REB effects (which are subsequently really good against Miracles anyways) in addition to either 2 Flusterstorm or Flusterstorm + Envelop post-board and those games were fairly easy. If it is very popular in your metagame consider an Aethersnipe or Venser, Shaper Savant in addition to those cards. It will be able to buy you one full turn (or just end the game if they don't Griselbrand and draw 7). Either way the matchup should be pretty easy; they cannot win without resolving the card Show and Tell.

After experiencing some of the other decks, I'm pretty much back on the RUG plan for Baltimore.

RIP is part of the reason I started looking into Naught. I was looking at some of the decks that use it out of the board and I was looking at the Kenny Castor deck from GP Indy and your own list from gencon. I've been playing your list for a while. My LGS has a lot of UW miracles and show and tell. Goyf seems pretty lackluster in those games.
I loaned out my goyfs and didn't get them back in time so I jammed 3 naughts and 1 ooze in my deck and went on to 3-1 the tourney but it didn't feel like it was supposed to. I wanted a little more burn in then deck but didn't have it to make room for a torpor orb and trick bind. In that tourney I did have the counter/top package out of the board which was more for fun when I did it but it came in handy a lot more than I thought it would have. I would board the naughts out, board the package in and go for a slower game plan. They would board in expecting the naughts and find a counterbalance instead.
I wanted to use spell snare in the current meta myself. There seems to be a lot more viable targets then before.

Water_Wizard

11-23-2012, 01:27 AM

Due to the reasons Mark and Hulk listed above, I'm actually leaning towards BUG for the first time in a long time.

As Hulk mentioned, RiP just destroys this deck, effectively neutering 2/3rds of our creature base. I think Clique is a solid option, because it is good vs. the Miracles and Show and Tell match-ups (which, conveniently, usually do not try to blow up our mana base) and it does not rely on the graveyard. Snapcaster Mage, Goyf, Goose, and Ooze are all graveyard dependent. It's also possible to up our Spell Snare count to combat RiP. I switched 2 Thought Scours for 2 Spell Snares, with RiP being a #1 factor. Other factors include Burning Wish and opposing Goyfs, among others.

However, BUG, with Abrupt Decay, is really solid.

Mark, you went RUG->Grixis->RUG. Why aren't you making the switch to BUG? Abrupt Decay and Deathrite with the possibility of Golgari Charm from the board give BUG a lot of breadth.

Ziveeman

11-23-2012, 01:56 AM

How many Spell Snares are you running in your lists? Spell Snare is definitely back because of Counterbalance and Rest in Peace.

Also as a creature that's good versus Rest in Peace, I'm trying out Vendilion Clique. Good versus Miracles and it's also a decent clock that doesn't require work (games versus Miracles go long anyway - you aren't gonna be sitting on two lands versus them, so the three cost shouldn't hurt all that much).

EDIT: I didn't read the above post too thoroughly, but yes I'm basically echoing Spell Snare & Vendilion Clique. Sulfuric Vortex is also a decent alt. win con versus RIP/Miracles.

Water_Wizard

11-23-2012, 04:05 AM

Mark Sun

11-23-2012, 11:22 AM

Mark, you went RUG->Grixis->RUG. Why aren't you making the switch to BUG? Abrupt Decay and Deathrite with the possibility of Golgari Charm from the board give BUG a lot of breadth.

Haha, the Grixis thing... yeah. That was more of a, uh, casual decision when I jammed it. Had a lot of fun with it, but not something I would do again. Main reasoning is what each color combination offers, so I'll type up something later tonight or edit it in here.

HulkFindItThisWay

11-23-2012, 12:24 PM

I'm running:

2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

with 3 Red Elemental Blasts in the board.

I'm considering Naturalize as a sideboard option. Perhaps Krosan Grip is just better. Or, for a blast from the past, Trygon Predator. Something to blow up enchantments.

Funny you mentioned the Predator. I was going to try that as a one of main board. I have a Legacy tourney tomorrow that I was going to try either the Elemental or the Dreadnaught in. Leaning toward the Dreadnaught. I'm going to try running a build with a Top or two. Bring in counterbalance out of the board. I will post my list later tonight. I've been running the same list Mark ran at Gen Con except I've been using Chain Lightning over Forked Bolt.
Has anyone tried going with a life from the loam main to get wasteland recursion going game one?

Ziveeman

11-23-2012, 05:27 PM

xfxf

11-23-2012, 07:25 PM

In regards to Nivmagus Elemental, I think there's too much removal in the meta nowadays to play him in a 12 creature agroish deck. Abrupt Decays, Swords, Terminus... Mongoose is the only headache we can give and his 3/3 on turn 4-5 isn't even enough to be threatening very often. If I wanted to explore the Elemental I would try him in an UR Delver build where getting your creatures killed isn't such a blow because you can draw into more gas and more damage every turn.

The problem I'm seeing with RUG currently isn't the power of its creature suite. Its just unless you can get an early tempo, current decks have better tools to trump the game in their favor as opposed to 5 months ago. RiP is a beating, Abrupt Decay is a beating. I will dare say that RUG became a meta-deck and will be successful only in particular metas and currently there are a billion different crazy things people are running (like Turbo Eldrazi) which makes RUG a secondary choice in my perspective. Don't get me wrong, I don't think RUG is any worse than BUG Tempo or Grixis either. I just feel like cripple your mana, beat you with a 3/x for 5-6 turns non-stop isn't the best strategy now.

On a side note, I think Sulfuric Vortex is a very good sideboard option now because unless they are expecting enchantments from RUG, and have answers for it, getting ahead on life totals then letting it finish them off seems like a very good option when your 12 threats are so easily killed.

HulkFindItThisWay

11-23-2012, 08:28 PM

Does the Counter/Top sideboard package help much against the current meta? I think that it could help against UW Miracles.

HulkFindItThisWay

11-24-2012, 12:56 AM

In regards to Nivmagus Elemental, I think there's too much removal in the meta nowadays to play him in a 12 creature agroish deck. Abrupt Decays, Swords, Terminus... Mongoose is the only headache we can give and his 3/3 on turn 4-5 isn't even enough to be threatening very often. If I wanted to explore the Elemental I would try him in an UR Delver build where getting your creatures killed isn't such a blow because you can draw into more gas and more damage every turn.

The problem I'm seeing with RUG currently isn't the power of its creature suite. Its just unless you can get an early tempo, current decks have better tools to trump the game in their favor as opposed to 5 months ago. RiP is a beating, Abrupt Decay is a beating. I will dare say that RUG became a meta-deck and will be successful only in particular metas and currently there are a billion different crazy things people are running (like Turbo Eldrazi) which makes RUG a secondary choice in my perspective. Don't get me wrong, I don't think RUG is any worse than BUG Tempo or Grixis either. I just feel like cripple your mana, beat you with a 3/x for 5-6 turns non-stop isn't the best strategy now.
The same removal you mentioned targets Goyf as well as the Elemental. My argument for the elemental was that he isn't affected by the graveyard hate and has the potential to be more explosive that the Goyf in the early game. The turns we are trying to hit threshold or flip a delver are the same turns UW is using to stick a top and counterbalance. If you hit them for 12 by turn 3, they have to worry a lot more than if you just flipped a delver. But that is just my 2 cents. I will be testing my theory tomorrow.

Water_Wizard

11-24-2012, 03:13 AM

The same removal you mentioned targets Goyf as well as the Elemental. My argument for the elemental was that he isn't affected by the graveyard hate and has the potential to be more explosive that the Goyf in the early game. The turns we are trying to hit threshold or flip a delver are the same turns UW is using to stick a top and counterbalance. If you hit them for 12 by turn 3, they have to worry a lot more than if you just flipped a delver. But that is just my 2 cents. I will be testing my theory tomorrow.

I think the difference is that Goyf is a 3/4, 4/5, or 5/6 that gets crippled by Rest in Peace.

Nivmagus Elemental is a 1/2 that needs some pumping.

The beauty of a card like Goyf is that it is large when it hits the table. Nivmagus has potential, but it needs a real deck built around it. I've seen people running it with Clout of the Dominus, but that is a different deck than RUG (although it may be a similar shell).

The developers at Wizards really hated on RUG with RTR:
Rest in Peace
Abrupt Decay
Deathrite Shaman - notice how he eats lands, instants, sorceries, and creatures? Yeah, that's 95% of a RUG deck.

JDK

11-24-2012, 09:03 AM

I think the difference is that Goyf is a 3/4, 4/5, or 5/6 that gets crippled by Rest in Peace.

Nivmagus Elemental is a 1/2 that needs some pumping.
I am inclined to say that this is probably the best comparison.

DarkConfidant

11-24-2012, 10:05 AM

Does the Counter/Top sideboard package help much against the current meta? I think that it could help against UW Miracles.

It would not help because RUG wants to counter Entreat the Angels and Terminus; neither if which are likely to be countered by Counterbalance. Envelope and/or Flusterstorm are good options to help against the aforementioned. If you are losing out due to Counterbalance, maindeck Spell Snare can help along with Red Elemental Blast out of the sideboard.

The other thing to remember is that some match ups are tough for RUG and testing is the only way to improve the match up. No matchup outside of maybe Lands.deck is truly terrible. Most unfavorable matchups are at worst 40/60 which is a very movable margin provide you understand the matchup better than your opponent.

Random aside; breaking out some copies of Divert today for the board. The meta has an EvaGreen.deck and BUG Tempo deck.

xfxf

11-24-2012, 12:55 PM

The same removal you mentioned targets Goyf as well as the Elemental.

Yes exactly. That's why we need the Mongoose in there. Otherwise all 12 of our creatures are vulnerable.

catmint

11-24-2012, 01:14 PM

Most unfavorable matchups are at worst 40/60 which is a very movable margin provide you understand the matchup better than your opponent.

I think Nic Fit is RUGs worst matchup and would not estimate it better than 30:70.

HulkFindItThisWay

11-24-2012, 01:22 PM

Yes exactly. That's why we need the Mongoose in there. Otherwise all 12 of our creatures are vulnerable.
I'm going to try 3 Elementals in the Goyf spot today at my event. I agree that Mongoose is a big part of the deck and shroud is important. I will post a list and results later tonight or tomorrow.

HulkFindItThisWay

11-24-2012, 11:37 PM

Here is the list I played to a 2-2 finish today.

4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
3x Flusterstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Stifle
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Nimble Mongoose
3x Nivmagus Elemental
1x Scavenging Ooze
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Tropical Island
3x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland
3x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder

My matchups were Rb Goblins, Nic-Fit/Scapeshift mess and UW Miracles. I played UW Miracles twice and won once(2-0) and lost once (1-2). I didn't take notes.

My sideboard was a mess. I wouldn't actually use this sideboard for a real event.
1 Phyrexian Dreadnaught
2 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Counterbalance
2 Submerge
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Echoing Truth

Counterbalance and top against goblins is funny.

Highlight of my night was slamming a Dreadnaught against a UW player on turn 2 of game 2 and having them scoop.

I'm not sold on the elemental yet. He did some work today but I feel like the deck wasn't firing like it should've been. Echoing Truth was the MVP out of the sideboard. The deck needs work. I'm not saying it is ready to knock down a GP but it was okay for a local shop.

dunk

11-25-2012, 06:04 AM

Yo guys,

I need some input and am interested in your opinions regarding a few slots in my maindeck and also need help in building a sideboard. I plan to attend a few bigger events in the next weeks and obv I want to make the deck as good and run as smooth as possible. No idea what the meta could look like, all I do know is that some of the better players will opt for UW, but at the end it's still legacy and anything can happen.

Ok now, time to show you what I'm at right now:

4 Goyf
4 Goose
4 Delver

4 Wasteland
3 Tropical
3 Volcanic
8 Fetches

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt

So, 58 cards. I guess this core is pretty stable and I won't change it. What I'am curious about, though, are how to fill the last 2 slots. There are a lot of options - burnspells, Spell Snare, Thought Scour, Preordain - of which I prefer burnspells more. 4 Bolts hardly are enough against critterdecks, especially if they run Cavern of Souls to blank our counterspells. Also, I'm a zoo player at heart and love burning away the last 5 or 6 lifepoints ( or better, love the option of being able to ). Flipside is that they are pretty much dead against control and combo, unless I'm quick enough or don't draw too many of them. There aren't too many options for burnspells though, namely Chain Lightning, Forked Bolt and Firce // Ice.
Chain might be the worst of the bunch, being less flexible. It deals 1 more to the dome though, which can be relevant a lot of times.
Forked Bolt is what I'd prefer right now. It's flexible and cheap, exactly what I am looking for. Like chain it will usually have only one target, but the possibility to blow out something like GW or Elves is still given.
Fire // Ice should be the most flexible in theory, but 2 mana is kind of expensive. Both for the deck itself as to handle creatures. On the other hand this card has different applications than just dealing 2 and can be pitched to Fow. I still think the 2 mana cost knock it out of contention.

Now to my bigger problem, creating a sideboard. Especially without any speculation of how the meta could look like it's extremly hard to build, given all the options there are.
I think I can put the sideboard cards into different categories: counterspells, removal and hate. In this case, hate is a pretty wide open field, as in hate vs UW or hate vs gravebased decks are artifact hate... you get the idea.

After looking at several lists, the only sideboard cards they have in common are Submerge and Pyroblast / Red Blast. So 5 cards for my sideboard are set in stone, 3 Submerge and 2 Pyroblast.
For the other slots there are a lot of questions to ask. Like, "what how many cards do I take out in a certain matchup and how many can I bring in" or "do I really need gravehate? it's probably only important against dredge and 3 or 4 hatecards hard improve the matchup at all". Some cards have the advantage of being extremely flexible, so while they can hate out a certain deck they can also be brought in against nearly everything else to get a slight edge.

I guess it's worth doing some card by card analysis for possible sideboard options:

4th submerge: Should be self-explanatory. Good against nearly all agressive strategies and the mirror. It's very likely that I will play 4 because it's such an awesome card.

Mind Harness: Less flexible as it only deals with green or red creatures, costs and binds mana. On the other hand a control magic effect can just randomly win, but to be honest there aren't that many juicy targets. You can get Goyf, Knight, Ooze, Pridemage and any Goblin. I guess that's ok, but not amazing. Also, GW can just tutor up Pridemage. Possible as a 1 of, but maybe underwhelming.

Grim Lavamancer: Not as antisynergetic as it may look, because Goose aren't the best anyway in matchups you bring in Lavamancer. Chances that it will shrink Goyf are also very rare and even if it does, shrinking it is probably better than not handling the opposing threat at all. Can also be brought in against removal heavy decks just to have another "threat" and as a suprise against Dredge. Could see this guy as a 1 or 2 of in the sb.

Rough // Tumble: The mass removal of Canadians choice. Might be worse than the spotremoval against GW but should buy some time or win the game against Goblins and Elves ( and other junkie decks ). I like it, can imagine 1 or 2 in the sb.

Sulfur Elemental: At 3 mana it's pretty expensive but deals with Thalia, Mom and Spirit tokens in split second speed. Also another threat against control. I guess it's ok but not amazing. Maybe as a 1 of?

Pyroblast / Red Blast: Obv awesome counter, but do I really want to play more than 2? I guess I like some other counterspells more, for example...

Envelop: This one. Obv strong against UW and any kind of combo. I don't really know what else to say, it hits some important targets that red blast doesn't. I guess it's worth to note that it can counter Perish as well, if anyone still plays that card.

Hydroblast: I don't see what I might need it for. Easy dismiss.

Counterspell: It's a weird choice that I see in canadian decks from time to time as a 1 of. 2 mana makes it kind of prohibitive to cast and to resolve, but at least it hits everything but the usual uncounterable and split seconded suspects. Will probably not make it in, but worth mentioning.

Spell Snare: If I don't play any of them in the main, I could possibly play some in the sideboard. They hit something against almost every deck, which is fair, but they don't seem amazing to me.

Vendilion Clique: Just a flexible and very good card. In the matchups you bring it in Wastelands arent expected, so 3 mana shouldnt be that much of a big deal. Good against any combo, any control, and Stoneforge. It is also a nice surprise attacker after your opponent resolved a Rest in Peace.

Sylvan Library: Who doesn't love to pay 16 life for 4 cards to get miles ahead in the control matchup? That may sound like it's sarcasm, but it's not. It's just reckless.

Krosan Grip: Disenchant being able to destroy Senseis Top and Counterbalance since 2006. But is that good enough? I don't know, this card seems kind of inflexible for its high cost. It doesn't even have a body.

Sulfuric Vortex: Canned hate against UW - style decks. May be too narrow though.

Scavenging Ooze: A lot of people don't like this card in canadian, but I think it's a wonderful 1 of in your sideboard if you have no clue about the meta. Sure, you rarely get to activate it more than once a turn, but that is usually enough combined with some sort of counterspell action. Probably not good enough to win on it's own against Dredge, but useful against Animator, Loam and Snapcaster - and tons of other shit like even GW. It's also a threat that can grow and the lifegain is not irrelevant either.

Cranial Extraction: Probably the best sort of gravehate we can get. Again, resolving one against Dredge is usually not enough to win, but the splash damage it deals to other decks is enormous. Can also be sweet against combo and UW. On the other hand I also had some frustrating games with that card, where it just did nothing at all. Pretty much a boom or bust card.

Grafdiggers Cage: Stops Dredge completely ( and other gravebased strategies ) while not doing harm to our own deck. Probably won't make the cut, but if it would, then as a 1 of.

Tormods crypt: When 1 mana to spend is too much... another too specialized card that won't come in often.

Ancient Grudge: Having some artifact removal can never be bad, be it against Equipment or tons of random stuff like the whole Affinity and MUD decks, Chalice of the Void, Ensnaring Bridge, Meekstone etc etc etc. I think more than 1 is hardly needed, but I could also see playing 2.

So yeah, those are all the possible cards that I came up with. If I overlooked anything please tell me.
As of now, my first draft of a sb looks like:

4 Submerge
2 Pyroblast
2 Envelop
1 Sylvan Library
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Rough // Tumble
2 Surgical Extraction

... but at least on the paper I'm not really happy with that.

Anyway, thanks for your suggestions.

Water_Wizard

11-25-2012, 03:32 PM

Random aside; breaking out some copies of Divert today for the board. The meta has an EvaGreen.deck and BUG Tempo deck.

I'm interested to hear how this works out for you.

Old tech, but good tech. Great for Abrupt Decay and Hymn to Tourach.

Rock on DarkConfidant, rock on!

Water_Wizard

11-25-2012, 04:13 PM

@ dunkle

You analysis is thorough and covers pretty much everything.

A few notes:

I'm not sure 4 Spell Pierce is guaranteed maindeck material. I may do a 2/2 split with Spell Snare. Spell Snare hits many of the problem problem cards like Rest in Peace, Counterbalance, Thalia, Stoneforge Mystic, and Tarmogoyf.

Guilded Drake is the only major sideboard option I think you missed. Naturalize may be worth a mention.

Did you decide on your last two maindeck slots? That will help me comment on your sideboard. For example, if you add two Chain Lightnings as cards 59 & 60, then you can probably cut a burn spell from the board. Also, Dismember is worth a mention. Probably not necessary in your build because you are running 4 Submerges from the side, but some people run it. Personally, I've never liked it, because I find the 4 life is too relevant vs. the decks you need to use Dismember against.

Julian23

11-25-2012, 05:23 PM

Right now, I'll take Envelop over Gilded Drake any day of the week. The former is so much more flexible and unlike Gilded Drake, also able to answer Show and Tell into Omniscience.

Wish I had more time to respond as dunke_stille's post is among one of the very best ones I have read in quite a while. Agree on most of what you say, especially 4 Spell Pierce, 0 Spell Snare + 2 Forked Bolt in the main. I like myself 4 Submerge, 2 Pyroblast, 2 Envelop in the sb, still undecided on the rest. Right now I hesitate to include that many 1offs. I think I'd cut an Ooze since I always feel it's too slow.

Water_Wizard

11-25-2012, 05:40 PM

@ Julian - I'm not suggesting Dunkle actually run Gilded Drake, rather just add it to round out his otherwise very complete analysis.

As you mention, Guilded Drake is a narrow card and does not answer Omniscience.

Personally, I don't think 4 Spell Pierce is the way to go. I find that too often it is a dead card.

Divert may be worth a mention as a potential sideboard card. Especially if Abrupt Decay and discard are on the rise.

catmint

11-26-2012, 05:16 AM

Divert is super strong against early discard, but I doubt it's value against spot removal. It is pretty conditional since you need an alternative target + the opponent must not be able to pay 2. Against an abrupt decay deck you have to rely on Mongoose and building tempo advantage. Other options are additional threats like Sulfuric Vortex or another GSZ as Mongoose +4. Btw.: Envelop is also good against discard decks!

Against Nic Fit, I would just pray or play a different deck. :tongue:

edit (joke): You could also try some funny stuff: suspend cards like Errant Ephemeron to hate on decay, but I guess more shroud is the better option. :smile:

dunk

11-26-2012, 12:03 PM

Thanks for your responses.

Yeah I totally forgot about Guilded Drake, once I played a tournament where I had 1 in my sb and never brought it in, guess that made me forget about it ;) Anyway, while it is an option, it's not flexible enough - it's only cool against a Sneak Show player praying for SnT to resolve. It's probably ok against Animator as well, but they rarely rely on SnT, and no matter what they attempt to reanimate, if it enters the battlefield it will instantly create some kind of advantage that will make it hard or pointless to resolve the Drake.

Dismember is no option for me. Which is kind of funny, because I overrated that card so hard when it came out. Well, it was awesome in standard at that time, but if your deck plays Batterskull and Sword of War and Peace that's a different story. But in Legacy I would render it unplayable outside of BUG decks, as the 4 life are just too much in the matchups where you would need it - as you say, water_wizard.

Divert is an interesting card, but catmint pointed out it disadvantages already.

Anyway, a few words about the maindeck: As of now I think I will stick to 2 Forked Bolt. I could probably cut a Spell Pierce and then play 2 Snare and only 1 Forked Bolt. I will have to think deep about that - the last time I ran Spell Snare I was happy with it, but I also lost a lot of coinflips that day ;), but Spell Pierce is just the overall stronger card, especially with the full mana denial package. Also, I love love love to counter opposing Brainstorms. And unless my opponent starts with 2 basics before he or she attempts to cast it, that will be very likely to happen.

also, @ Abrupt Decay:
If it becomes more prevalent, I like the idea of cutting a goyf for a Zenith.

Que

11-26-2012, 03:38 PM

I think another card that may be included as part of the SB options would be Flusterstorm. Its additional hate against combo.

Also if Abrupt Decay does become even more prevalent how bout running Mizzium Skins. ;p

JDK

11-26-2012, 03:47 PM

Also if Abrupt Decay does become even more prevalent how bout running Mizzium Skins. ;p

I was about to say that. :laugh:

DarkConfidant

11-26-2012, 06:41 PM

With regard to Abrupt Decay, I would suggest Divert as an alternative to Mizzium Skins. While Mizzium Skins will "counter" Abrupt Decay, Divert has a much wider array of applications and can generate card advantage.

@Water_Wizard: I cut Diver prior to the start of the tournament since no one played with BUG or something that would of made Divert worth of a sideboard slot. However, I feel its a great card against BUG Tempo and a slightly better than average card against BUG control. If BUG does make a serious push on the back of Abrupt Decay, I would strongly consider running a copy or two in my sideboard moving forward.

Short Tournament Report:

I played the following list:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Thought Scour
4 Spell Pierce
3 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
2 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

SB:
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sulfur Elmental
2 Rough // Tumble
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Submerge

Round 1: WGB Enchantress with Opalescence
I was paired with the true rouge deck of the day Round 1. As an aside, all three games he opened with Leyline of the Void which was annoying to say the least. At any rate, I won game 1 on the back of Delver of Secrets. Game two, I kept a hand with a Tarmogoyf, Ponder, Land, Land, and three Lightning Bolt and lost to a resolved Opalescence when I wasn't able to find a counterspell. Game three, I was able to grind out thanks to him filling his graveyard up with enough card types to make Tarmogoyf a 4/5 which meant he couldn't attack (all of his enchantments are 4/4s under Opalescence). After that, I found a Delver of Secrets and rode it to victory.

This matchup was slightly terrifying, but that probably had more to do with him opening with Leyline of the Void in every game. I boarded in Submerge along with Scavenging Ooze while boarding out Spell Snare, and Nimble Mongoose. The deck doesn't have any relevant two drops and since the games are slower, I opted for Ooze over Nimble Mongoose since it has a bigger body and can grow even with Leyline out (albeit not much). I kept in Thought Scour as he was running Enlightened Tutor. I don't know if this match up is so terrible that it warrants adding enchantment hate cards to the sideboard given that its not a popular deck.

Key Cards: Delver of Secrets, Spell Pierce, Force of Will, Wasteland (for Serra Sanctum)
Key Notes: Remember that Opalescence makes each other enchantment a creature, so you can't burn it out unless they play two.

Round 2: Merfolk
Won: 2-1. A few notes about this match-up. Spell Snare was amazing as hit Master of the Peral Trident, Lord of Atlantis, Jitte and Coralhelm Commander. I'm not sure how favorable this match-up is given that he didn't find a Coralhelm Commander across three games. Having Chain Lightning as a two of was much better than the possible alternatives of Dismember, Forked Bolt and/or Fire // Ice as it allowed me to burn out Merfolk with multiple lords on the table.

I boarded out Daze on the draw and some number of Force of Will. On the play, I boarded out Spell Pierce instead of Daze. Spell Pierce is rather underwhelming in this match-up given that post board, your deck can answer everything that you would try to Spell Pierce anyway. I brought in Rough // Tumble, Ancient Grudge, and Red Elemental Blast. Of those, Rough // Tumble was the worst given that it likely needs to be paired with another burn spell unless its in the early game. Ancient Grudge was great at blowing up Jitte and Red Elemental Blast was awesome.

Round 3: Maverick
Lost 0-2: I got rolled by Knight of the Reliquary. Game two he resolved and early Jitte so I was forced to begin using my Submerges to stop his Jitte from gaining too many counters. I wasn't able to live the dream and Forked Bolt two of his creatures which was kind of sad. The key to this match-up is stopping Knight of the Reliquary (duh!). I'll likely make some changes to my sideboard based on this match-up (along with the maindeck). Surprisingly, I didn't find Thalia to be that much of an issue. He was able to resolve Thalia in both games and holding Lightning Bolt for her was a quick fix. Mother of Ruins was somewhat annoying, but that's to be expected and it wasn't really a factor.

I incorrectly boarded out Force of Will. After reading over Drew Levin's RUG primer, I'm convinced that Force of Will is necessary even if its only function is to stop Jitte and Knight of the Reliquary. Both of those cards are devastating and nearly impossible to counteract once resolved. Knight can be managed if its small enough. However, once it pushes to a 6/6 and beyond, it really falls out of RUG's ability to deal with it outside of Submerge. I would chalk up a majority of this loss to my inexperience in playing this match-up. I would also add the balance of that blame to my inability to find a Delver of Secrets and put pressure on Maverick.

Changes:

I"m going to try Stilfe this time around. I opted to do Spell Pierce because I hadn't played with Stilfe in a long time; I'd rather opt for what I'm comfortable with. I'm not sure what the counter suite would look like, but I would play four Stifle and some combination of Daze, Force of Will, Spell Pierce, and Spell Snare.

I also plan on cutting Chain Lightning and Forked Bolt. While both spells are powerful, I don't think they do enough in key match-ups - namely against Maverick and Show and Tell. I believe some combination of Dismember and Fire // Ice is in order. Both cards interact more favorably in the aforementioned match-ups and Fire // Ice's utility is something I'd rather play with. Living the dream and getting a two for one with Forked Bolt is just that - living the dream. While Fire // Ice might be worse under Thalia, RUG cans till 2 for 1 for one more mana. However, the ability to deny them an attack with Knight seems like a much better option.

Thought Scour is just bad right now. Nimble Mongoose, while powerful, isn't quite as good as it was a few months ago. Therefore, dedicating slots to it that power it up quickly seems like wasted space to me right now.

I would redo the spell base to look something like this:

4 Stilfe
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Dismember
1 Fire // Ice

I'd also like to add a Predict or Slyvan Library to gain some mid - late game card advantage but I'm unsure what to cut at this point.

The sideboard is harder to make changes to because it depends on who is playing on any given weekend. However, I will likely add some enchantment removal, probably in the form of Krosan Grip to the sideboard. Maybe playing against Leyline of the Void three games in a row has tainted my decision making, but there is an argument to be made for Krosan Grip given that Counterbalance locks this deck out rather easily.

Sturtzilla

11-27-2012, 11:20 AM

I'd also like to add a Predict or Slyvan Library to gain some mid - late game card advantage but I'm unsure what to cut at this point.

I have been thinking on this topic a lot recently. I think I want to try out a one-of Library to grind out those longer games against control and to help sculpt better hands in the mirror. The problem with this card is that it doesn't create any immediate advantage. One of RUG's key strengths is that all of your cards have immediate impacts on the board and/or game state. There are a few exceptions like cantrips when you can't cast what you are looking for or Sulfuric Vortex out of the board. It just feels awkward to cast Library in my opinion because while it is a proactive card, it isn't immediately proactive.

The sideboard is harder to make changes to because it depends on who is playing on any given weekend. However, I will likely add some enchantment removal, probably in the form of Krosan Grip to the sideboard. Maybe playing against Leyline of the Void three games in a row has tainted my decision making, but there is an argument to be made for Krosan Grip given that Counterbalance locks this deck out rather easily.

Krosan Grip is almost a necessity as it is our only reliable way to deal with a resolved Counterbalance. If there are blue control strategies in you meta, running 1-2 Grips is likely a good call.

DarkConfidant

11-27-2012, 12:14 PM

I have been thinking on this topic a lot recently. I think I want to try out a one-of Library to grind out those longer games against control and to help sculpt better hands in the mirror. The problem with this card is that it doesn't create any immediate advantage. One of RUG's key strengths is that all of your cards have immediate impacts on the board and/or game state. There are a few exceptions like cantrips when you can't cast what you are looking for or Sulfuric Vortex out of the board. It just feels awkward to cast Library in my opinion because while it is a proactive card, it isn't immediately proactive.

Agree 100% with your rational. I think Sylvan Library provides the deck some much needed gas when RUG drops into top deck mode in the mirror or in the longer match-ups. However, I would build on your hesitations by arguing that Sylvan Library is at best a tempo neutral play and has a high risk of becoming a negative tempo play - especially if it is countered.

Given the inherent negative tempo it generates, I would rather play Predict as it it can generate card advantage it mills, and pitches to Force of Will in a pinch. An additional upside to Predict is found in the interactions it has with Submerge in games 2 & 3. Being able to Submerge a Knight of the Reliquary in the Maverick match-up or an opposing Tarmogoyf in the mirror seems like a favorable interaction. The aforementioned interaction is a bit of living the dream, but there are other applications such as milling an opposing Worldly Tutor or Enlightened Tutor target, milling a card when your opponent is playing with Top, etc.

The take away is that Predict has versatility while Sylvan Library does not. Decks like Zoo need Sylvan Library since a lot of Zoo has a lot of dead draws. Most draws with RUG are live which means drawing a lot of cards isn't necessary.

Though I'm still somewhat undecided on what should be cut. My guess is that it largely depends on a particular list.

Mark Sun

11-27-2012, 01:35 PM

I posted an evaluation on Sylvan Library a couple of pages back. It's not always about Tempo in this deck, although it's a huge component. It's also about efficiency and card quality. A lot of it also lies in how you play the card. I've been thinking about some changes lately and I'm going to try some ideas this weekend at Baltimore (if I get a group together to go, 50%). Hopefully there can be some positive results. I will say that I have been less impressed with Forked Bolt lately, so Chain Lightning will likely resurface in the deck. Besides that, I'm not sure.

dunk

11-28-2012, 10:25 AM

I will say that I have been less impressed with Forked Bolt lately, so Chain Lightning will likely resurface in the deck. Besides that, I'm not sure.

Care to explain? Is the additional 1 damage to the dome worth it?

Mark Sun

11-28-2012, 03:39 PM

Personally people are getting a little smarter against Forked Bolt, and Miracles is pushing Maverick/Elves out of the format a little, two matchups where you really want to see it. You will probably still want it against Goblins, but Stifle + Rough/Tumble out of the board should still help you in the matchup. The other main is Deathrite Shaman. Testing against Junk/BW/BUG, you need to recognize it as a main threat since it (1) accelerates them, (2) gets them farther from burn range, and (3) eats spells out of the graveyard. Since I would be burning a Forked Bolt for 2 on it anyways, there seems to be no reason that I can't make the adjustment from Forked Bolt to Chain Lightning anyways.

I also think Spell Snare should find itself back into the maindeck.

Isre Morn

11-28-2012, 04:20 PM

I also think Spell Snare should find itself back into the maindeck.

Snare never made the way out of my md. there were times i had a 3 pierce / 1 snare split, but i recently went back to a 2 / 2 split. i was always glad having at least one copy of them in my deck.

Koby

11-28-2012, 05:36 PM

Mark Sun

11-28-2012, 06:38 PM

Thanks Koby!

Snare never made the way out of my md. there were times i had a 3 pierce / 1 snare split, but i recently went back to a 2 / 2 split. i was always glad having at least one copy of them in my deck.

There was a month or so span where it was probably right to not play it, with so much Omniscience, etc running around. But yeah. My list that I had been jamming was having issues with the mirror (especially because I had cut down on Tarmogoyfs anyways). Stupid metagame shifts; who said this was a stale format? :laugh:

apistat_commander

11-30-2012, 11:49 AM

I had some questions come up at my local last night that I wanted input on:

- What are you typically boarding out against Miracles/Miracle Blade? Against pure Miracles I typically cut my Bolts/Forked bolts, however against Miracle Blade I was having more trouble. Typically I leave most of my burn in against Stoneblade to answer an early Stoneforge and cut Dazes under the presumption that the game will go long and they will become dead draws. Miracle blade is an interesting case because I want all of the countermagic possible to stop an early Counterbalance but I also need to answer Stoneforge.

-Do you ever bring in Surgical Extraction against non-GY based fair decks or is this just bad Magic? For example, would you bring in Extraction against Esperblade to help against Lingering Souls or is it better to not dilute your deck?

- I kept the two following hands against Belcher (on the play both times):

Hand one - Trop, Fetch, Delver, Mongoose, Stifle, Spell Pierce, Ponder

Hand two - Spell Pierce x2, Delver, Mongoose, Waste, Volc, Fetch

Should I have mulled to Force? I realized that Stifle just doesn't get there but I kept on the assumption that I could Stifle the first Belch/EtW and he wouldn't necessarily have the mana/cards to go again.

Ziveeman

11-30-2012, 01:27 PM

apistat_commander

11-30-2012, 01:32 PM

What is your list? That would help in determining sideboard plans.

Against Belcher - I probably would have kept those on the play. Mulliganing to Force when you already have good cards to stop them seems like a losing proposition. Just Spell Pierce whatever gets them to 4 mana and you should be fine.

Here is what I was playing last night:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce

1 Sylvan Library

2 Forked Bolt
4 Ponder

8 Fetch
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

SB:
1 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Pyroblast/REB
2 Envelop
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Submerge
2 Mind Harness

- I cut burn against Belcher post-board which was a mistake as he brought in Xantid Swarms which totally blew me out. I think that in the future I will cut Library, some number of Goyfs, and Forked Bolts to bring in hate from the board instead of cutting all of my burn.

Sturtzilla

11-30-2012, 03:23 PM

What are you typically boarding out against Miracles/Miracle Blade? Against pure Miracles I typically cut my Bolts/Forked bolts, however against Miracle Blade I was having more trouble. Typically I leave most of my burn in against Stoneblade to answer an early Stoneforge and cut Dazes under the presumption that the game will go long and they will become dead draws. Miracle blade is an interesting case because I want all of the countermagic possible to stop an early Counterbalance but I also need to answer Stoneforge.

It really depends on your configuration and what you are afraid of the most. You don't want to let a SFM sneak in a Batterskull. You don't what to be facing down a Counterbalance. And most of all you don't want to over extend into Terminus or Supreme Verdict. Against straight miracles I cut Forked Bolt and Lightning Bolts. I typically bring in some combination of Krosan Grips (2), Sulfuric Vortex (1), and Red Elemental Blast(1)/Pyroblast (1) and Envelop (1-2). It depends on how my board is configured exactly. I might take out a Daze or two as well. Daze loses a lot of its impact in the mid to late game against this Miracles. But the cards I am bringing in are less versatile but hard counters for what we are actually worried about in this MU.

Against a Miracleblade hybrid, your bread and butter is Nimble Mongoose. Ride that fuzzy little bro to victory. Don't let you opponent get 2-for-1s with their Terminuses or Verdicts. Force them to blow their mass removal on one of your guys. This gets you a lot of value, because you they are inclined to take a hit or two to let you develop your board. Save your counter magic and burn for Terminus, Jace, and SFM/Batterskull. This is kind of a hard call when it come to boarding... but I would probably cut some number of Dazes (maybe 2), the Forked Bolt (yea I know it kills SFM), and either a Goyf or Delver. I would bring in 2 Krosan Grips, 1 Ancient Grudge, and the Pyroblast/REB and possibly the Envelop. This maximizes your lines. You don't have to counter SFM if you have artifact removal, allowing you to essentially double time walk your opponent. Pyroblast/REB move us to a more resilient counter package and also let us straight up kill Jace. Envelop is less exciting here as they probably only have 1 Entreat and 2-3 Terminus. So your other counter magic is probably fine. This is probably a bit more of a call based on exactly what you see out of the deck.

-Do you ever bring in Surgical Extraction against non-GY based fair decks or is this just bad Magic? For example, would you bring in Extraction against Esperblade to help against Lingering Souls or is it better to not dilute your deck?

I very rarely bring in Extraction versus non-graveyard decks. It is some awesome value if you can hit a Lingering Souls but I would not count on being able to have that occur. Now and then in the mirror I will bring it in on the off-chance I can just blow my opponent out by taking his Goyfs or Trops. These are rather narrow applications. There are more straightforward and impactful cards out there.

Hand one - Trop, Fetch, Delver, Mongoose, Stifle, Spell Pierce, Ponder

Hand two - Spell Pierce x2, Delver, Mongoose, Waste, Volc, Fetch

These hands are fine as long as you are not playing the turn one Delver or Mongoose. A well placed Pierce or Stifle typically is enough to win this match up. I usually leave the blue source up and then ride one threat to victory maximizing my ways to disrupt my opponent.

Water_Wizard

12-01-2012, 01:22 AM

-Do you ever bring in Surgical Extraction against non-GY based fair decks or is this just bad Magic? For example, would you bring in Extraction against Esperblade to help against Lingering Souls or is it better to not dilute your deck?

Sturtz covered the first part of your question very well, so I will just leave that alone.

Ziveeman and Sturtz covered the last part of your question very well, so I will also just leave that alone.

Regarding the middle part of your question:

The only time I bring in Surgical vs. non-graveyard decks is when I want to take my burn out vs. creatureless combo. Examples of the decks that I would do this against include High Tide, OmniTell, Sneak and Show, and possibly Storm (ANT/TES if I knew they were not running Xantid Swarm or Dark Confidant). The reason I will bring in Surgical is because your burn is worthless, other than a shot to the dome. This can help you close out games more quickly, especially after an Ad Nauseam or a Time Spiral or a Diminishing Returns (when they fill your hand with fresh Bolts and they are at low life). However, Surgical can also provide good information (both on their current hand and their sideboard configuration for game 3 or future matches), remove relevant cards from the game (aka Show and Tell, Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor, or High Tide), act as pseudo discard (assuming they have a card in their hand and their graveyard), mess up Brainstorms and Doomsday piles (I once won a match vs. Doomsday because I Surgicaled and made him shuffle his pile, messing up the order), and Surgical has 0 mana cost! Against combo decks, usually your life total is irrelevant - either you are dead or you aren't, so the 2 life very rarely matters. Remember, you can Surgical in response to their draw step, so that will increase your chances of achieve pseudo-discard status and it will also make them burn mana on their turn if they wish to counter (potentially delaying their combo turn). You get great information if you do this, so you can plan out your counters and know if it is safe to drop threats or if you have to keep your mana up for counterspells.

So, yes, I will bring in Surgical vs. non-graveyard decks if they are strong combo decks without creatures.

JDK

12-01-2012, 07:15 AM

Now and then in the mirror I will bring it in on the off-chance I can just blow my opponent out by taking his Goyfs or Trops. These are rather narrow applications. There are more straightforward and impactful cards out there.
Isn't that like the worst usage of the card? I cannot imagine taking the 2 dmg. and not feeling extremly bad about it half of the time.

Julian23

12-01-2012, 10:09 AM

The importance of Goyf in the mirror shouldn't be underestimated. After all the early game mana-denial dust has settled, Canadian mirrors soon become all about who gets a goyf to stick since it dominates Mongooses throughout the entire game and can't be dealt with by any burn spell like Delver. I've seen people board out Delver in the mirror just to take their opponents Bolts worse. I don't know yet if this is correct but it tells you something about the importance of Goyf. I don't feel I'd go as far as to bring in a Surgical Extraction in the mirror, but I can understand the reasoning behind it.

JeroenC

12-03-2012, 06:00 AM

I took RUG to a top 4 finish in a 33-player tournament Saturday (winning a played Force). I hadn't played Legacy since GP: Ghent, so I mostly just messed with some slots and left toward the tournament:

4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
1 Snapcaster Mage

2 Forked Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Thought Scour

3 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
----

SIDEBOARD
1 Force of Will
1 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Krosan Grip
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Spell Snare
2 Trygon Predator

Notes: definitely like 3 Force main. I feel like I want to change one Spell Pierce for somethign else but I can't seem to think of a good replacement (Dispel/Flusterstorm is closest to what I want right now but I don't know if that's right).
Didn't have Stifles so not a Stifle-version right now, and I actually feel better playing without them, they were never superb for me.
Singleton Snapcaster was a great slot, the times he was dead in my hand did not weigh up to the times he gave me the win.
SB can definitely use some work. I need some answers vs Tribal and BUG, open to suggestions.

Jodzilla

12-05-2012, 08:50 AM

Sturtzilla

12-05-2012, 11:58 AM

Isn't that like the worst usage of the card? I cannot imagine taking the 2 dmg. and not feeling extremly bad about it half of the time.

Let me ask you a very simple question: do you like winning? By extracting Tropical Island in the mirror you nuter 2/3s of your opponents potential threats, assuming you can get it to occur when you opponent can't fetch out another Trop (or a Tiaga...). Sure you have to have a specific sequence of plays occur to make this happen. But when it happens, you keep them off of Mongoose and Goyf while also making their deck very land light. The land light part makes fetch lands less useful and subsequently your Wastelands, Dazes, and Spell Pierces more potent.

As for Tarmogoyf, many mirrors come down to who controls more of them. If you can Spell Snare one and then Extract it... your opponent is in a rough spot.

In general in the mirror extracting anything can be a decent play. It can nerf an opposing mongoose/goyf for a safe kill, it can remove cantrips to make opposing filtering less likely, it can take out bolts so you don't have to fear removal. So while it doesn't expressly have a reanimation or dredge based target, it can still be a fine play if you use it correctly.

Over the weekend at SCG Baltimore I used it to extract Lotus Petals in respose to a TES player casting Ad Naseum. It is a narrow line here, but as he was at under 10 life it raised the average cost of the cards he was flipping. He actually was forced to keep taking cards to finish the combo and ended up killing himself. So in some non-graveyard combo match ups it has applications.

Edit: I went 3-0-1 in the Legacy Challenge on Saturday. I IDed with a guy that I knew from the Pittsburgh area. I got 3 RtR packs and $25 in credit. I am pretty sure I could have won that last round but drawing seemed like the gentlemanly thing to do. During the Open I just got wrecked by everything. If you guys want a real report, I can write one up. I still have my notes. Just let me know.

Mark Sun

12-05-2012, 12:08 PM

I don't like Extracting things in the mirror. Or at all, really. When you have that combination of cards (Wasteland + Surgical) it feels great, but as you have to finagle your way to a favorable board state, you're probably falling behind. I see the merits, I just don't condone it.

Congrats on the Finish!

Well lets start with asking what the main problems for the matchup are.

Goblins - Raw card advantage, faster than Thresh, Consistent, resilient to removal, unable to counter most of their spells.
Merfolk - We run Islands, Aether Vial, We don't run basics.
BUG - Haven't played the match to know anything yet.

Those are just things I remember. Anybody else care to add or give suggestions?

Goblins - This is my general game plan against Goblins: Maintain 6 or more 1 mana answers on the play or draw for Goblin Lackey in your deck. You have to hit Aether Vial regardless. Burn Force of Will on it, or if you are still playing Spell Pierce main deck, don't play anything on turn 1. Stifle Plan: if they are Mono Red, start hitting Ringleaders and Incinerators on your Delvers. If they are Rx, depending on what you have in your hand you have the option of attacking their manabase, which has also worked out for me. It depends heavily on the experience of the pilot you are facing (for example, some newer players will keep 2 land hands, which are awesome for us), and what resources you have available to you. Just know where you are allowed to direct those resources. I haven't had a major issue with Goblins yet, although I am down to 2 Tarmogoyf in my list now. Post-board you have access to Rough/Tumble which should carry you to a pretty convincing victory.

Merfolk - Not much to say here, except that you rehashed it. I cut my Forked Bolts for Chain Lightnings a while ago and I have been happy with it. You need the change if you want a better matchup against Merfolk. Delver and Goyf are your best threats against them. Since I don't board heavily, I leave in Force of Will to answer Aether Vial.

BUG - I have not played against it much, but also a reason I went from Forked Bolts to Chain Lightnings. Nothing to really split damage on except for Vendilion Clique and you need a reliable answer to Deathrite Shaman early. Also playing 1 Dismember now, since nothing in our deck really answers a Tombstalker.

JDK

12-05-2012, 02:40 PM

Let me ask you a very simple question: do you like winning?
I do, but I don't like boarding in possibly useless cards. SExtraction has potential to win you the game, but it could also very likely be a dead card, which is horrible in the mirror.

catmint

12-05-2012, 04:56 PM

You seem very convinced that Extraction is the nut-tech in the mirror Sturzilla. To me the card is way to swingy & narrow to deserve a slot. Bringing a Goyf or a Trop to the yard and extracting it as long as it still matters (not beeing way behind / ahead) sounds like happening rather rare. Having "solid" cards is almost always significant.

DarkConfidant

12-05-2012, 05:32 PM

Merfolk - Not much to say here, except that you rehashed it. I cut my Forked Bolts for Chain Lightnings a while ago and I have been happy with it. You need the change if you want a better matchup against Merfolk. Delver and Goyf are your best threats against them. Since I don't board heavily, I leave in Force of Will to answer Aether Vial.

BUG - I have not played against it much, but also a reason I went from Forked Bolts to Chain Lightnings. Nothing to really split damage on except for Vendilion Clique and you need a reliable answer to Deathrite Shaman early. Also playing 1 Dismember now, since nothing in our deck really answers a Tombstalker.

I'd add a few notes

In the Merfolk match-up, Red Elemental Blast / Pyroblast are great options out of the board and one of the few ways to answer a leveled Coralhelm Commander outside of Dismember (which is painful and also doesn't necessarily kill it). I've also found that boarding in one to two Ancient Grudge can be helpful in this match-up since it blows up Aether Vial, and also can answer opposing Jittes if they board them in.

Regarding BUG, I've been testing Divert in the sideboard and its been very useful in that match-up. Divert is great in counterwars, against all their discard, and is awesome when redirecting Abrupt Decay (redirecting an Abrupt Decay that's been flashed back via Snapcaster Mage is the nuts). I've also moved away from Dismember because Submerge answers Tombstalker well enough in this match-up. Even if we can't live the dream like when we shuffle away Knight of Reliquary in response to its trigger, its fairly difficult for BUG to recast Tombstalker immediately since the have to Delve five to six cards to make it truly cost effective.

The only time I bring in Surgical vs. non-graveyard decks is when I want to take my burn out vs. creatureless combo.

Against TES and UBr storm decks, do you believe there is a rational for keeping in burn to cut those decks off from Ad Nauseam? I ask because in my experience (both playing Storm and RUG), burning out your opponent seems possible given the low life totals that can those decks run into when digging with Ad Nauseam.

----

Before going any further, I've move away from Dismember completely. Dismember was good while Knight of the Reliquary was prominent. However, Maverick players are aware of this and the players I've been going against are holding Knight until they have enough lands in their graveyard. I also believe that 3 - 4 Submerge is more than enough to deal with Knight of the Reliquary post board. If Dismember is still relevant, its likely in the Mirror since it kills Tarmogoyf. However, I don't like the idea of paying four life to kill a Goyf when a lot of RUG players are moving toward Chain Lightning.

I've been deciding between maindeck Fire // Ice and Chain Lightning as the fifth and sixth slots of removal in the deck. There's a case to made for either at this point.

Fire // Ice
Pros:
-Ice taps down large threats (Tombstalker, Knight of the Reliquary, Tarmogoyf)
-Ice taps down an opponents mana
-Ice replaces itself
-Ice pitches to Force of Will
-Ice Taps Trinisphere (not mainstream relevant, but someone at my local shop plays MUD)
-Fire burns an opponent for 2
-Fire can two for one opposing creatures

Cons:
-Costs two mana (meaning its not a first turn answer to Goblin Lackey or Mother of Runes on the draw)
-Costs three under Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
-Running two of these maindeck means there are only 4 Sorceries main deck to grow Tarmogoyf to a 4/5.

Chain Lightning
Pros:
-Its Lightning Bolt at Sorcery speed
-Its Sorceries 5 & 6 which help grow Tarmogoyf

Cons:
-Redundancy: Chain Lightning doesn't answer anything that Lightning Bolt doesn't already answer. Its "more of the same" meaning that if we assume "removal spots" 5 & 6 are to a certain extent "flex spots" (in that their meant to provide answers to things Bolt can't), then using Chain Lightning decreases the flexibility of the deck.
-"Chain Effect": an opponent is playing mountains, then are able to recast Chain Lightning targeting us, Delver, or Goyf. While this is somewhat fringe, I think its relevant in the Goblins and Burn match-ups and slightly relevant in the RUG mirror.

If the metagame shifts towards Merfolk and Goblins, then I believe that Chain Lightning is the correct choice in the maindeck.

In the Merfolk match-up, the extra damage is necessary given how many lord effects they are running. Despite boarding in Rough // Tumble, a lot of the time this isn't enough to kill their board because they have at least two lords out. If they do, its necessary to burn one lord and then cast Rough to wipe the board the rest. While Fire can accomplish this, the difference is 3 mana (Chain Lightning plus Rough) vs 4 mana (Fire plus Rough).

In the Goblins match-up, the real question is do you want/need more than eight main deck answers to Goblin Lackey on the draw? (The eight being 4 Lightning Blot & 4 Force of Will). Chain Lightning more powerful in that it kills three toughness Goblins while Fire cannot. Additionally, Ice loses some of its utility because it cannot target Goblin Piledriver.

Water_Wizard

12-05-2012, 08:29 PM

I do, but I don't like boarding in possibly useless cards. SExtraction has potential to win you the game, but it could also very likely be a dead card, which is horrible in the mirror.

You seem very convinced that Extraction is the nut-tech in the mirror Sturzilla. To me the card is way to swingy & narrow to deserve a slot. Bringing a Goyf or a Trop to the yard and extracting it as long as it still matters (not beeing way behind / ahead) sounds like happening rather rare. Having "solid" cards is almost always significant.

Before we waste anymore time discussing this Surgical in the mirror business, let's look at Sturtzilla's original comment:

I very rarely bring in Extraction versus non-graveyard decks. It is some awesome value if you can hit a Lingering Souls but I would not count on being able to have that occur. Now and then in the mirror I will bring it in on the off-chance I can just blow my opponent out by taking his Goyfs or Trops. These are rather narrow applications. There are more straightforward and impactful cards out there. (emphasis added)

He's not saying 'bring it in every game' or 'it's the stone-cold nuts.' He's saying "now and then" he will bring it in "on the off-chance" that he can use one of the "rather narrow applications." "There are more straightforward and impactful cards out there." As I understand, Sturtz plays in a smaller weekly tournament. When you are playing the same players week in and week out, it can be good to mix it up.

Let's just leave it at that.

Water_Wizard

12-05-2012, 08:54 PM

Against TES and UBr storm decks, do you believe there is a rational for keeping in burn to cut those decks off from Ad Nauseam? I ask because in my experience (both playing Storm and RUG), burning out your opponent seems possible given the low life totals that can those decks run into when digging with Ad Nauseam.

If you read down a little further, I talk about this.

The only time I bring in Surgical vs. non-graveyard decks is when I want to take my burn out vs. creatureless combo. Examples of the decks that I would do this against include High Tide, OmniTell, Sneak and Show, and possibly Storm (ANT/TES if I knew they were not running Xantid Swarm or Dark Confidant). The reason I will bring in Surgical is because your burn is worthless, other than a shot to the dome. This can help you close out games more quickly, especially after an Ad Nauseam or a Time Spiral or a Diminishing Returns (when they fill your hand with fresh Bolts and they are at low life). However, Surgical can also provide good information (both on their current hand and their sideboard configuration for game 3 or future matches), remove relevant cards from the game (aka Show and Tell, Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor, or High Tide), act as pseudo discard (assuming they have a card in their hand and their graveyard), . . .

A good Ad Nauseam player will stop when he/she knows he/she can combo off, and no lower. Bolts can, and have won games vs. Ad Naus. It depends on play or draw. Play, I'm more likely to leave in my Goyfs or Sylvan Library. Draw, I'm probably going to cut Library and some number of Goyfs. It also depends on if I am running Thought Scour. If I have 2 Though Scours in my build, I am more likely to rely upon Mongooses. If not, I may cut Mongooses for Goyfs. Depending upon how many cards I'm cutting I'm more likely to leave in burn.

My ideal post-deck contains 2-3 Bolts, unless I am expecting Xantid Swarm or Dark Confidant, in that case, I'm leaving more. How many cards are cut or added depends upon the specific build I'm running at the time and my specific sideboard, but I'm usually looking to bring in the full number of REB/PB I'm running plus any Spell Pierces or Envelops I may have in the board. If I have an extra slot, I may bring in 1 Surgical Extraction. The only way I would bring in more than 1 is if I knew my opponent was heavily dependent upon Past in Flames or Ill-Gotten Gains as a win condition.

Surgical is essentially free, which is a plus. I also think it has broader applications. For example, if your opponent Ad Nauses's down to 5, a Bolt is not going to win you the game, where a Surgical Extraction may. Another benefit is that off of Ad Nauseam, you know exactly what you opponent has in his or her hand, so you can Surgical selectively, perhaps exiling a win condition or needed mana accelerant.

catmint

12-06-2012, 02:36 AM

Thanks water wizard... Sorry Sturzilla - was making false assumptions because of the "do you want to win" reply.

Water_Wizard

12-06-2012, 02:52 AM

JDK

12-06-2012, 07:44 AM

Before we waste anymore time discussing this Surgical in the mirror business, let's look at Sturtzilla's original comment:

[...]

He's not saying 'bring it in every game' or 'it's the stone-cold nuts.' He's saying "now and then" he will bring it in "on the off-chance" that he can use one of the "rather narrow applications." "There are more straightforward and impactful cards out there." As I understand, Sturtz plays in a smaller weekly tournament. When you are playing the same players week in and week out, it can be good to mix it up.

Let's just leave it at that.
Now take a look at my comments again and please point out where I accused him of saying anything like that or where I rule out the cards potential. Take your time. ;)

catmint

12-06-2012, 08:47 AM

JDK

12-06-2012, 09:04 AM

He quoted me too. :eyebrow:

Yesterday I've been running through CMC2 creatures and shortly stopped at Plaxmanta (as well as Grimoire Thief and some other narrow cards, all inferior to Goyf), but wasn't that convinced. It's like a living version of Mizzium skin, if you have green up. Not that exciting.

HulkFindItThisWay

12-06-2012, 09:16 AM

catmint

12-06-2012, 09:20 AM

Of course not to replace Goyf. Maybe 1-2 in the sideboard... Yes "living version" means hit the face and "2 for 1". At worst a 2/2 flash increasing threat density. Mizzium Skin or Divert has a higher risk of doing nothing, wheras I feel a 2/2 flash does always something against the decks you bring him in and has the potential to win the game or at least make things significantly more favourable for you. Don't forget not answerable my Spell Pierce, which is counterspell #1 (after FoW of course).

HulkFindItThisWay

12-06-2012, 09:23 AM

[QUOTE=Mark Sun although I am down to 2 Tarmogoyf in my list now.[/QUOTE]
Care to share your list? I've been toying with the 4 Goyf slots. I'm running a Trygon Predator, Ooze, 2 Goyf currently. Not sure if that's right but in my local meta I need the main deck removal the predator offers.

Sturtzilla

12-06-2012, 12:07 PM

Thanks water wizard... Sorry Sturzilla - was making false assumptions because of the "do you want to win" reply.

Hey no worries. I don't think that it is the nuts, but if you can manuever to one of a few different game states, it allows for plays that pretty much single-handedly win you the game. I know some pros have gone on the record saying that you should use it if you feel outclassed by an opponent in the mirror, but I think that is poor thinking. It is rarely dead and can be a blowout. Don't get me wrong, I would rather have my Submerges and REB/Pyroblasts but if I was going to cut another card, Surgical could (and sometimes does) find its way into my post boarded mirror match games.

Thoughts on a 1-of Life from the Loam in the sideboard?

I wasn't ever really that impressed with LftL when I had it as a one-of in my board. You rarely ever find it. You have to have two mana to cast it, which against some of the decks we would be bringing it in against, can be tough. Between Stifle and Wastelands you probably can just win these matchups anyway. Honestly I usually find my mana so tight that I don't what to pay two mana to get lands back from my graveyard. Additionally, Wastelocking an opponent just seems like it is win-more to me. Just kill them instead.

Coming back to the "adapt to decay" discussion. Did anyone ever try Plaxmanta? Sounds like GU: "counter target swords/decay" put a 2/2 body into play.

At locals I don't really have much of a problem with Abrupt Decay at the moment. However this might not be bad tech for the mirror and any of the UW decks. As stated, it straight up counters any targeted removal. So we are spending a card to counter a card; that is already what this deck does. In addition we get a 2/2 beater. Sounds like it is worth trying to me. In the mirror the extra body can block non-threashed geese, unflipped delvers, and help in Goyf on goyf show-downs. Sounds like it could be worth a shot to me.

Water_Wizard

12-07-2012, 12:23 AM

Wizard was referring to my comment Hellspawn.

Coming back to the "adapt to decay" discussion. Did anyone ever try Plaxmanta? Sounds like GU: "counter target swords/decay" put a 2/2 body into play. Compared to divert: Divert has applications in counter wars and vs. discard (not inquisition though), but when in comes to protecting delver Divert is pretty narrow. Paying "g" more for a spell pierce proof counterspell that attacks for 2 is fair. This 2 for 1 seems worth evaluating.

He quoted me too. :eyebrow:

Yesterday I've been running through CMC2 creatures and shortly stopped at Plaxmanta (as well as Grimoire Thief and some other narrow cards, all inferior to Goyf), but wasn't that convinced. It's like a living version of Mizzium skin, if you have green up. Not that exciting.

Seems too narrow to need G1 up. It's nice in the right situation and could really swing games, but would probably be win-more. If BUG really becomes an issue, we could always run Compost. I ran one in Maverick with an E. Tutor sideboard. It either sucks up an Abrupt Decay or draws you a bunch of cards. Or, better yet, Stifle and Wasteland them and keep them off BG.

Purple_Shrimp

12-07-2012, 02:48 AM

SirTylerGalt

12-07-2012, 05:50 AM

Coming back to the "adapt to decay" discussion. Did anyone ever try Plaxmanta? Sounds like GU: "counter target swords/decay" put a 2/2 body into play. Compared to divert: Divert has applications in counter wars and vs. discard (not inquisition though), but when in comes to protecting delver Divert is pretty narrow. Paying "g" more for a spell pierce proof counterspell that attacks for 2 is fair. This 2 for 1 seems worth evaluating.

I've been considering Reality Ripple to protect Nivmagus Elemental / Death's Shadow / Delver of Secrets in my U/B tempo deck. The cool thing with phasing, is that Nivmagus keeps its counters, and Delver stays flipped. You can phase out a creature in response to targeted removal, but it
also works against Terminus and Supreme Verdict.

It's also great against Batterskull. If you Reality Ripple the germ token, Batterskull will remain phased out until the game ends:

702.24k Phased-out tokens cease to exist as a state-based action. See rule 704.5d.
702.24f When a permanent phases out, any Auras, Equipment, or Fortifications attached to that permanent phase out at the same time. This alternate way of phasing out is known as phasing out "indirectly." An Aura, Equipment, or Fortification that phased out indirectly won't phase in by itself, but instead phases in along with the permanent it's attached to.

This works for any equipped token, such as a Lingering Souls token equipped with a Jitte :)

You can also use it to remove a blocker during an alpha strike :)

just a minor point, but why does this deck always seem to run 4 Tarn and 4 Rainforest as its fetches? it seems to me that a 2/2/2/2 split between Tarn/Rainforest/Delta/Strand would provide a little more resilience against Pithing Needle, Surgical Extraction, and so on, at no cost. the advantage would be very minor, but I can't see how it would possibly be a disadvantage

I like playing T1 Flooded Strand, go. When my opponent thinks I'm on some kind of U/W Miracles / Blade Control deck, he won't play around Daze as much
:)

Ziveeman

12-07-2012, 12:39 PM

No one expects a Stifle out of Wooded Foothills either :)

Water_Wizard

12-07-2012, 02:52 PM

just a minor point, but why does this deck always seem to run 4 Tarn and 4 Rainforest as its fetches? it seems to me that a 2/2/2/2 split between Tarn/Rainforest/Delta/Strand would provide a little more resilience against Pithing Needle, Surgical Extraction, and so on, at no cost. the advantage would be very minor, but I can't see how it would possibly be a disadvantage

No one expects a Stifle out of Wooded Foothills either :)

You are correct - the deck always should run a 2/2/2/2 split (except back when it was running Taiga or a basic Island - don't do this!). The only reason I've heard players say that they run the 4/4 is due to card availability - it's easier to get the newer fetches.

However, I always run a 2/2/2/1/1 split. 2 WF, 2 PD, 2 FS, 1 ST, 1 MR - might as well throw those Wooded Foothills in the mix!

I also consciously run Misties and Tarns in my other decks, like Omni-Tell, to make it look like RUG.

Mark Sun

12-07-2012, 03:34 PM

I like the Foothills/Strand split, actually. People are definitely more wary of a Tarn/Rainforest/Delta on turn 1. They see the former and they don't immediately put you on RUG. I've gotten to live the dream with Foothills into Stifle, and it's nice. A friend playing UWb Tempo got to do something similar with Marsh Flats, but that's another story...

Care to share your list? I've been toying with the 4 Goyf slots. I'm running a Trygon Predator, Ooze, 2 Goyf currently. Not sure if that's right but in my local meta I need the main deck removal the predator offers.

I hate to say it, but I'm falling into the BUG camp as of now. I took Deathrite TA to my locals last night and left feeling pretty good. Not sure if I'm going to stick with RUG or not going forward. My last list that I planned to play at Baltimore but everyone bailed on me last minute:

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
1 Dismember

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

SB:
3 Submerge
3 Spell Pierce
1 Envelop
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Rough//Tumble
1 Krosan Grip

Deck felt super good when I was tuning it. I went back to the basics instead of all the cutesy stuff that I had been playing. Major changes from my Gen Con list which I usually considered as my base when I tweaked for an upcoming tournament. This time, I just gutted it. Some notes on the list:

- It might just be personal preference, but I hate casting Tarmogoyf, for a couple of reasons. (1) Nimble Mongoose having Shroud shifts the equilibrium of spot removal to other things. While we can protect Delver early when both sides' resources are light, tapping out to play Tarmogoyf leaves us fairly exposed. That said... (2) I hate having to play this guy early. I find it very similar to last Standard where it was risky tapping out to play Geist on t3. Sure, you got your finisher, but you are also incredibly exposed. If you do tap out, you also turn off conditional things like Spell Snare, or Spell Pierce in my previous lists, which can be brutal. With only 18 lands, you can't afford to just hold it either. The great paradox. 2 seems like the correct number for my playstyle.

- I cut Spell Pierce for Spell Snare. The former is a great utility card but not as impressive as the latter has been for me. The format is shifting towards 2cc again and moving directly up to 4 a couple of weeks ago was definitely the correct read. It does force you to play tighter and prioritize your mana denial, but hey -- that's why we play this deck.

- I moved from Forked Bolt to Chain Lightning. And Fire//Ice to Dismember. Maverick is no longer as crazy popular as it has been, and there are more mirrors, Deathrite Shamans, and Merfolk running around. People also get smarter and realize that they shouldn't walk into a Forked Bolt as well. Besides Goblins, I rarely want to have the card anyways, so I felt comfortable cutting it. To answer Tarmogoyf in the mirror and other niche cards like Tombstalker (and Knight if people are still playing it), I cut the Fire//Ice for Dismemeber. I've always hated the card but I also realize necessity over preference. As a result, I brought Sulfur Elemental back into the sideboard to deal with Lingering Souls.

- The Snapcaster Mage replaced the Sylvan Library slot. I realized that although Sylvan Library is a house, if you want to rely on it to win (which I was not doing) versus relying on it to be cantrip-ish-slot-number-9 (which I was doing), you need more than the single copy I was running. Since I already put a non-blue card in Dismember in, I wanted another value card that was blue which I could play. Initially it was a Vendilion Clique, but as good as that card was sometimes I missed that ninth cantrip. So I settled on something with Flash that could rebuy.

- I went from a 8 Fetch, 6 Dual split to a 7 Fetch, 7 Dual split. I never really wanted the 19th Land (and I've tried a lot of stuff to make sure I getting value out of that land, including playing Cephalid Coliseum at some point) but I wanted more duals that I could use. This was a fairly elegant solution, and is actually pretty decent against the Mirror, since you have the extra dual and are exposing your fetchlands just a hair less.

- I cut Sylvan (previous logic above) and Life from the Loam (same logic as Library) and streamlined the board. Krosan Grip became necessary, but besides that, I simplified things a lot. And no, I'm still not playing GY hate. Contrary to what people may think I actually have an immense respect for GY based decks, enough that I believe the 1-2 slots I'm going to open up in the board wouldn't even be enough to swing those matchups. Hence, I'd rather board for something else.

That was lengthier than I wanted it to be, but... yeah.

Water_Wizard

12-07-2012, 05:54 PM

And no, I'm still not playing GY hate. Contrary to what people may think I actually have an immense respect for GY based decks, enough that I believe the 1-2 slots I'm going to open up in the board wouldn't even be enough to swing those matchups. Hence, I'd rather board for something else.

Mark, thanks for the solid analysis. Regarding the GY hate, I'm wondering if we can piggy-back off of Deathrite. If I were a mage reling upon the graveyard to win me games, I would probably be aware of the growth of Deathrite and second-guess my choice. Therefore, I think we are good removing graveyard hate.

Also, if you consider RiP is one of the best ways to beat RUG and BUG, I can only see the play of RiP rising.

Graveyard based decks just get caught in the cross-fire.

Mark Sun

12-08-2012, 03:54 AM

Mark, thanks for the solid analysis. Regarding the GY hate, I'm wondering if we can piggy-back off of Deathrite. If I were a mage reling upon the graveyard to win me games, I would probably be aware of the growth of Deathrite and second-guess my choice. Therefore, I think we are good removing graveyard hate.

Also, if you consider RiP is one of the best ways to beat RUG and BUG, I can only see the play of RiP rising.

Graveyard based decks just get caught in the cross-fire.

It's possible. Dredge did wind up winning its quarterfinals match against BUG at Baltimore, so it's not completely dead. That said, I'm a little disappointed because I was going to be a Budget Legacy article series with Manaless Dredge, and maindeck Rest in Peace definitely cramps my style in that department. It is fine logic though to cut our own GY hate, though.

Water_Wizard

12-08-2012, 04:47 AM

No worries.

Thoughts on a 1-of Life from the Loam in the sideboard? When the RUG mirror was more common, most decks were running 1 LftL in the side (some even ran it main for a while). When Miracles (and their 6 basics) and Omni-Tell kind of took over, the LftL was dropped for better efficiency with that slot. Now that BUG (with 4 Wastelands and all non-basics) is back, should we bring a 1-of LftL back to the sideboard?

This is what my sideboard looks like:
4 Submerge
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Life from the Loam
2 Rough // Tumble
3 Tormod's Crypt

I wasn't ever really that impressed with LftL when I had it as a one-of in my board. You rarely ever find it. You have to have two mana to cast it, which against some of the decks we would be bringing it in against, can be tough. Between Stifle and Wastelands you probably can just win these matchups anyway. Honestly I usually find my mana so tight that I don't what to pay two mana to get lands back from my graveyard. Additionally, Wastelocking an opponent just seems like it is win-more to me. Just kill them instead.

I play tested and came to the conclusion that Life from the Loam is not good in an environment with Deathrite Shaman.

They either eat your Wasteland or they eat your Life from the Loam, so it is not a good sideboard card in this meta.

I'm basically confirming what Sturtz said above.

atropos

12-08-2012, 02:19 PM

It's also great against Batterskull. If you Reality Ripple the germ token, Batterskull will remain phased out until the game ends:

702.24k Phased-out tokens cease to exist as a state-based action. See rule 704.5d.
702.24f When a permanent phases out, any Auras, Equipment, or Fortifications attached to that permanent phase out at the same time. This alternate way of phasing out is known as phasing out "indirectly." An Aura, Equipment, or Fortification that phased out indirectly won't phase in by itself, but instead phases in along with the permanent it's attached to.

How exactly does Reality Ripple exile a Batterskull for the rest of the game? Could you explain the mechanics, I'm not quite sure how that would work.

Mark Sun

12-08-2012, 02:27 PM

How exactly does Reality Ripple exile a Batterskull for the rest of the game? Could you explain the mechanics, I'm not quite sure how that would work.

It gets exiled with the Equipment, but tokens cease to exist when they leave the battlefield. It's interesting tech but I think it's too narrow.

HulkFindItThisWay

12-08-2012, 04:52 PM

I hate to say it, but I'm falling into the BUG camp as of now. I took Deathrite TA to my locals last night and left feeling pretty good. Not sure if I'm going to stick with RUG or not going forward.
Say it isn't so! You're one of the reasons I started playing the deck. Is RUG really that much worse than TA/BUG in the current meta?

I've been having some luck locally with Dreadnaughts instead of Goyfs. I'm running 3 Naughts, and 2 Goyfs with a trickbind instead of one of the Spell Pierces. I have a win a mox tourney later in the month and I figure that will be one of the big tests of the deck.
Here is my list if anyone has any advise.

4x Delver of Secrets
4x Nimble Mongoose
3x Phyrexian Dreadnaught
2x Tarmogoyf

1x Sylvan Library
1x Trickbind
4x Lightning Bolts
2x Chain Lightning
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Daze
4x Stifle
2x Spell Pierce
4x Force of Will

3x Volcanic Island
3x Tropical Island
3x Scalding Tarn
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Flooded Strand
1x Polluted Delta
4x Wasteland

wcm8

12-08-2012, 05:01 PM

Dreadnought seems especially bad when the format is full of StP AND Abrupt Decay...

Wurst2000

12-09-2012, 05:20 AM

I'm playing RUG for about a Year now. I did have some success with it and in the current meta, i'm starting to think that stifle is no longer what the deck wants. There has been a group that thought like that for a while now, including really good players like brad nelson, matt costa, and vidugiris. I know that brad has been playing lists with stifle, too, but if you watch the video that has been posted on scg shortly, you can see that he feels unconfortable playing the list when he is sideboarding.
I like the theory behind not playing stifle. RUG is a deck that takes its advantage in playing only 2-3 lands und keeping the rest in hand for later brainstorms, whereas other decks have to play several more lands to get its gameplan going. If this plan works we are getting virtual cardadvantage.
If our plan now is to start stifling there fetchlands we are giving up on this advantage. I know that many games when playing stifle end with your oponent not having enough lands in play to play all the good things in his hand but there are at least the same amount of games where you cannot afford to hold up on stifle since you dont have enough lands to put preasure on the board and keep mana up. I know that stifle is great against miracles but your gameplan against a deck like miracles is usually to keep 1 threat on the board and save your other threats for later. After sideboarding sulfuric vortex really shines in this matchup. Another Matchup where the stifles really shined is esper-blade. the ability to stifle a living weapon trigger or to keep them of mana was usually to crucial spot in this matchups but espcially after sideboarding the list without stifles really is on a big advantage. Against all other decks i didnt really miss the stifles until now.
Here is my current decklist:
4 delver of secrets
4 nimble mongoose
4 tarmogoyf
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 thought scour
4 force of will
4 daze
3 spell pierce
1 spell snare
4 lightning bolt
1 fire/ice
1 dismember
4 wasteland
4 tropical island
4 volcanic island
4 wooded foothills
2 scalding tarn
1 misty rainforest

Sideboard:
3 submerge
2 sulfuric vortex
2 rough/tumble
2 ancient grudge
2 surgical extraction
1 grafdiggers cage
1 pyroblast
1 red elemental blast
1 life from the loam

i know that playing a list without stifle is a little strange at the beginning but it has it advantages. I really suggest anyone playing rug should try it at some point.

regards
Patrick

Ziveeman

12-09-2012, 08:02 PM

So this is the list I am planning to take to SCG Invitational:

Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Forked Bolt
1 Sylvan Library

Lands
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
3 Submerge
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Pyroblast
1 ???

The last SB slot - debating between Flusterstorm or Divert. Thoughts? Leaning toward Divert because of Abrupt Decay but it also seems a little situational.. Divert can't counter a Show and Tell like Flusterstorm but still fights in a counterwar.

Water_Wizard

12-09-2012, 10:16 PM

Envelop? If you are running 14 counterspells main plus 2 Pyroblasts in the board, I don't think you need this slot to be an extra counterspell.

If you aren't running Dismember main, I think you should run the 4th Submerge in the board. You don't have many outs to a resolved KotR or Tombstalker, and I feel like those decks are on the rise.

I'm questionable if you need 2 KGrip in the board. With only 6 lands, it's hard to run 2 KGrip (because you'll want to bring it in against decks other than UW- plus, vs. UW, you already have 2 Pyroblasts).

I'm also questionable about the main deck Ooze. It could be good vs. Deathrite decks, but it's usually too slow.

Personally, I would cut a Grip and add a Submerge and a 3rd Pyroblast.

Ziveeman

12-09-2012, 10:24 PM

Yeah, I've been debating where a Dismember goes. I was thinking of replacing 1 Spell Pierce for the Dismember which would also allow for a counterspell to be in the SB.

2 Krosan Grips may seem like a lot, and I agree, but I feel like Counterbalance (which is probably going to be very prevalent at the Invitational) is going to be pretty big. In fact, I was running -1 Forked Bolt, +1 Tropical Island to make up for the number of 3 costs in the deck. I had a Vendilion Clique in the ??? slot, so 19 land was pretty justifiable, but without Clique, I'm not so sure. Perhaps I should go back up to 19 land if I do want to run the 2 Grips. I like the Forked Bolt for the expected Goblins/Deathrites I'll be encountering. Maybe I should just skimp on Sylvan? Ugh. I want it all!

I've actually went down on a Submerge because of the lack of KotR decks in the metagame but yeah with BUG making a comeback perhaps I should just make it a 4th Submerge again.

And the Ooze is there to provide a little of utility in the mirror match and aggro decks. A little mana intensive sure, but I've been playing with him for awhile and he suits my playstyle. Makes G1 vs. Dredge a little better too.

Water_Wizard

12-09-2012, 10:53 PM

Agreed. I played with Ooze for a while, too. I really liked him, especially against the Aggro match-ups like Goblins because he provided needed life gain and he became a big body.

It wouldn't surprise me if UW decks started running Wasteland. Previously, they were splashing R to combat the Omni-Tell match-up (for Pyroblasts out of the board), so they couldn't run Wasteland. However, if I were a UW mage, I would be testing a build with Wasteland and Rest in Peace. With that in mind, the extra land and the 2nd Grip could be very valuable. You could do what Mark did and keep your land count at 18, but drop to 7 fetches + 7 duals.

Abrupt Decay kind of wrecks Counterbalance, so I would think twice if I was going to play Counterbalance. Although, UW is usually well-represented at SCGs, especially Invitationals. Dismember isn't that great vs. Goblins because it comes at too great a price. Rough // Tumble is very good. Chain Lightning may also be worth a shot. Personally, I switched my Forked Bolts to Chain Lightnings and I've been happy with the switch.

I think Junk may be on the rise again. It did finish 2nd two SCG's ago. I wouldn't worry about KotR from Maverick, but rather from Junk.

Spell Snare is very good at stopping Rest in Peace, Counterbalance, Hymn to Tourach, Tarmogyf, Stoneforge Mystic - it might be worth upping the count to 3.

I would think BUG would keep combo in check, but you know there will always be somebody there trying to fight uphill and rocking TES, ANT, or Omni-Tell. Maybe Clique is a good catch-all. It's good vs. combo and miracles.

catmint

12-10-2012, 04:03 AM

Agreed. I played with Ooze for a while, too. I really liked him, especially against the Aggro match-ups like Goblins because he provided needed life gain and he became a big body.

This is wrong thinking. We are the aggro deck against Goblins and need to kill them before they stabalize. A grindy card like ooze to "gain life in order to survive" does't do anything if they keep casting ringleaders, SCG, Krenko's... You need to kill them before their late game inevitability starts to matter. Sure, in theory they have a faster clock (lackey into haste-lord into piledriver) but you should never keep a hand which cannot deal with lackey.

Shugyosha

12-10-2012, 11:23 AM

This is wrong thinking. We are the aggro deck against Goblins and need to kill them before they stabalize. A grindy card like ooze to "gain life in order to survive" does't do anything if they keep casting ringleaders, SCG, Krenko's... You need to kill them before their late game inevitability starts to matter. Sure, in theory they have a faster clock (lackey into haste-lord into piledriver) but you should never keep a hand which cannot deal with lackey.

And that's exactly what Ooze is doing: Swinging for more and more damage while getting life to widen the gap even more. Whether your opener can deal with a Lackey or not is a different question entirely. Unless you cut a burnspell for Ooze ofc, which would be worth it still.

apistat_commander

12-10-2012, 11:33 AM

I just wanted to chime in re: Forked Bolt vs. Chain Lightning. I personally see no reason to run Chain Lightning. There is currently no x/3 that I always want to kill and if I am running additional burn in that space it is for aggro matchups. Against aggro decks Forked Bolt offers the chance for a two for one but more importantly, I think it gives you +1 damage to the dome more often than Chain Lightning will. I feel like I am burning out X/1's more frequently than I am sending my burn to the face. Against decks where Forked Bolt/Chain Lightning are just going to the dome, they are coming out in G2/3 anyway so the extra damage is hardly relevant. Forked Bolt just does so much work against the decks where you want it, I just wouldn't run anything else in that slot if I need the additional removal.

re: cutting Tarmogoyfs and Sylvan Library. Library has been really good to me, however I know that my impression of it may be biased because the games I remember are the ones where I resolve it and win. The games where it rots in my hand probably just don't stick out as much in my mind. I have felt like 4 Tarmogoyfs is sometimes too many, especially if you aren't seeing much Tribal/Aggro. However I don't know if I would go with less than 3 because it still is the most efficient beater for the mana and we run very few win conditions as it is. I don't think there are currently any other options for creatures that are really worth maindecking but I am hoping that Gatecrash will provide a boost for either R/G or U/G they way that RtR helped G/B.

Also, is playing less than 4 Daze in this deck wrong? I was checking out the 2nd place list from this tournament (https://www.magiccardmarket.eu/blog/coverage/) and thought the list looked pretty sweet. 4 Force/4 Stifle/3 Pierce/3 Snare/3 Daze is a pretty robust counter package and I like that you don't have to give up the flexibility of Spell Pierce to also accommodate the power of Snare.

re: Ooze. I just don't know how other people are ever getting this card to work for them. It is pretty easy for any deck with the ability to do so to keep us off of green mana. I think that Tarmo is almost always a superior choice simply because we just don't play enough lands nor have enough extra mana to really abuse Ooze.

JDK

12-10-2012, 04:44 PM

And that's exactly what Ooze is doing: Swinging for more and more damage while getting life to widen the gap even more. Whether your opener can deal with a Lackey or not is a different question entirely. Unless you cut a burnspell for Ooze ofc, which would be worth it still.

It seems you completely misunderstood catmint. Ooze doesn't provide you with a fast clock, it's a card for the mid- to lategame. In the Goblin MU you cannot count on defeating the opponent if you slowroll with Ooze. You have to be fast, or you will drown in Goblins while he laughs at your lifegain attempts.

Julian23

12-10-2012, 04:50 PM

To be honest, I don't see Ooze doing anything in the Goblins matchup. It's super low, more easily cycled-away than Goyf and requires much more setup. Just playing a 2/2 for 2 on turn2 is going nowhere in the Goblins matchup. Considering how much mana you have to pump into Ooze to even compare to Goyf, you're kinda losing the match to a single resolved Mogg-War Marshall. MWM also blocks Tarmogoyf like a boss, but that's far less severe since Goyf only costs 2 mana to be big. Having said that, the creature I want most against Goblins is Delver. Fucking chump blockers.

The lifegain is close to irrelevant.

Ziveeman

12-10-2012, 06:38 PM

JDK

12-10-2012, 08:06 PM

catmint

12-11-2012, 05:09 AM

Ooze helps to fight their grind-game. A lot of the time they just attack with everything and whittle down your life total turn by turn until you're just overwhelmed. With an Ooze in play, they can't do that because every time you chump, you are also making some of their unblocked creatures useless because you are just getting the life back.....

Maybe there was an odd game and/or bad goblin player so you remember ooze to be good. But think about it: If I am a gobo player and on the offense against you I only run my creatures into your ooze if I can surely kill you (within 1-3 turns). Otherwise if you don't threaten my life total, I just wait to cast some more uncounterable matron/ringleader/SCG/Krenko,...

Concerning Goyf-count: I am also in the camp of 4 Goyf beeing a bit clunky. I play 3 since ever and never felt to be threat light. The library is a Sideboard card for me vs. control.

apistat_commander

12-16-2012, 04:01 PM

The last SB slot - debating between Flusterstorm or Divert. Thoughts? Leaning toward Divert because of Abrupt Decay but it also seems a little situational.. Divert can't counter a Show and Tell like Flusterstorm but still fights in a counterwar.

How did you do at the invitational? I am thinking of playing a list similar to yours but swapping the numbers of Pierce and Snare. I don't want to drop Pierce completely as G1 Planeswalkers are still a problem, but Snare hits enough relevant things to be a 3-of.

Water_Wizard

12-17-2012, 03:01 AM

Did Caleb really run a 62-card list?

I guess he just couldn't cut those Thought Scours.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51714

DarkConfidant

12-17-2012, 05:53 PM

I'm curious about the what everyone's thoughts are on the "correct" number of counterspells in the deck. I've seen lists that range from 12 - 17 counterspells make top eights in the last few months.

For those that run between 12 - 14: what are you filling those extra slots with and why are you choosing those cards over more counterspells?

For those that run between 15 - 17: why are you running so many counterspells over other potential utility cards?

*For reference, I'm counting Stifle as a counterspell.

Ziveeman

12-17-2012, 06:26 PM

How did you do at the invitational? I am thinking of playing a list similar to yours but swapping the numbers of Pierce and Snare. I don't want to drop Pierce completely as G1 Planeswalkers are still a problem, but Snare hits enough relevant things to be a 3-of.

I didn't do all that well. 4-3 in both the Legacy portion and Legacy Open. I got a bye in the Legacy portion of Day 2 because I dropped all of my Day 2 Standard matches LOL. Placed 75th out of the ~200 people that attended the Invitational, so just out of the money.

Day 1 -
Esper Stoneblade - 1-2
RUG Delver - 0-2
Esper Stoneblade - 2-1
UW Miracles - 2-0

Day 2 -
UG Enchantress - 0-2
Hive Mind - 2-1
Combo Elves - 2-1

Legacy Open
Elves - 2-0
Shardless BUG (Gerry Thompson) - 0-2
Goblins - 0-2 (both games I mulliganed to 5 and didn't stand a chance)
RUG Delver - 2-0
Sneak Show - 2-0 (Killed a Griselbrand with Dismember & forcing him to block!)
UW Rest in Peace - 2-0 (opponent got a game loss for being late and he never resolved a spell through double Delver in g2 so this match doesn't really count)
Burn - 1-2
Dropped at that point because I was exhausted after a whole weekend of Magic.

I removed a Grafdigger's Cage from the SB as well, so with the two extra slots I put in a Divert and a Vendilion Clique.

I only faced a BGx deck once, so it wasn't as useful as it could have been, but I did blow out an Esper Stoneblade opponent by redirecting a Swords to Plowshares to his Stoneforge Mystic from my Tarmogoyf. I also saved my Delver of Secrets once from a Lightning Bolt, so that seemed pretty sweet from what I saw. I wasn't the only person running Divert though, there were plenty of UGx decks running it to fight Abrupt Decay.

As far as Spell Snare goes, I like it, but it's pretty bad versus Show and Tell decks. I like it as a two-of if you're expecting to face a mix of Stoneblade and Show and Tell.

spartan117

12-17-2012, 06:30 PM

Did Caleb really run a 62-card list?

I guess he just couldn't cut those Thought Scours.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51714

At first I was like: "Oh man, deck is awesome, it's the perfect combination of cards and quantities! Well, I'll cut those scours for a couple pierces, a snare for a removal, but hey, deck is still perfect!"

Then I counted the cards. Dreamcrush.

StoneColdEffy

12-17-2012, 08:51 PM

Hey guys so I've decided to try this deck, but was wondering what its merits are over BUG? And which is better positioned right now?

Water_Wizard

12-17-2012, 08:54 PM

At first I was like: "Oh man, deck is awesome, it's the perfect combination of cards and quantities! Well, I'll cut those scours for a couple pierces, a snare for a removal, but hey, deck is still perfect!"

Than I counted the cards. Dreamcrush.

That's exactly what I did! I was like 'this main deck list is the perfect combination of cards (not so crazy about the sideboard.)' What did he cut that I didn't? And then I added it all up. And then I was like, oh yeah, I'm still not running Thought Scour.

I wonder how that affected his mana curve. Perhaps adding the Thought Scour really doesn't matter that much, but it's still 2 more non-land cards in your opening draw.

I'm also not wild about the lack of Pierce and Ancient Grudge/K Grip in the sideboard.

The two Tormod's Crypt's were interesting. I've been going 'graveyard-hateless' (ala Mark Sun.) So far, it's been good, but I did miss some graveyard hate in a 1-2 loss to Zombardment yesterday. Although this match really came down to him Thoughtseizing my Sulfur Elemental on t1 and then creating 12, yes 12, Lingering Souls tokens. Death from the grave ;)

SirTylerGalt

12-18-2012, 07:18 AM

That's exactly what I did! I was like 'this main deck list is the perfect combination of cards (not so crazy about the sideboard.)' What did he cut that I didn't? And then I added it all up. And then I was like, oh yeah, I'm still not running Thought Scour.

I wonder how that affected his mana curve. Perhaps adding the Thought Scour really doesn't matter that much, but it's still 2 more non-land cards in your opening draw.

They explained in the SCGLive commentary that Caleb forgot to add Brainstorm to his decklist, realized it at the last minute, and ended up with 62 cards instead of 60 after registering his deck :)

apistat_commander

12-18-2012, 10:43 AM

Hey guys so I've decided to try this deck, but was wondering what its merits are over BUG? And which is better positioned right now?

RUG
- Tight maindeck
- Possibly the best Brainstorm deck in the format
- Lots of countermagic means that you have game against most decks (Flexible vs. narrow cards), similarly your burn can always go to the face
- Responds well to player skill
- Can get free wins from Turn 1 Delver + Burn, or Stifle + Wasteland
- SB Pyroblasts/REBs make blue MUs better, and Submerge is awesome

BUG
- Gets to play Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman (People are just now realizing that you must kill this guy on sight but not everyone has gotten the memo)
- Better lategame threats
- Can get free wins from Deathrite into Waste + Hymn, or Delver into Hymn
- Has the ability to side into a quasi-midrange/control deck
- SB black cards wreck creature MUs

As for which deck is better positioned, I am not quite sure. Both decks have seen success recently but RUG definitely has a longer and more consistent track record. I have the feeling that the optimal BUG-Tempo shell is still being worked out, but once it is figured out it will be a total house. Given how responsive each deck is to pilot skill, I would probably choose the deck that fits your play style better (nimble, counter based vs. disruptive/brute force).

wcm8

12-18-2012, 11:56 AM

Hey guys so I've decided to try this deck, but was wondering what its merits are over BUG? And which is better positioned right now?

I posted this in the TA thread, but it's relevant here as well to answering your question.

Let's talk about Tempo, or the difference in playstyle of Canadian and American thresh.

I believe that Hymn to Tourach is the biggest difference between the two decks and dictates the rest of the deck construction. To support the BB sorcery, TA runs 20 lands and plays some number of the tertiary dual land. Since it's already invested in a slightly more robust mana base, it plays a few 'bigger' spells and has an alternative sideboard plan thanks to its Black options. Compare this to RUG, which only needs one land in play to continue operating, and does not typically deviate from the aggressor role even in sideboard games. RUG's ideal plan is to land a threat and protect it along the way, and use burn to eventually finish the job if needed. BUG instead typically lands a threat or two and gradually runs their opponent out of answers via Hymn, and then plays a better topdeck war thanks to all of the cantrips.

When Hymn is good, BUG is better, hands down. When Hymn is bad (and there are definitely times when this is the case), RUG seems to take the cake as the tempo deck to play. I don't like to make absolute statements, but I have found that if you are planning on cutting Hymn for another option you might as well just play RUG.

There was a quote I remember reading in the RUG thread which said that RUG's play is a bit like a sports car: extremely fast, but will completely derail if it hits a 'brick wall' (via something like an un-opposed big threat or 'answer' card such as Rest in Peace or Relic of Progenitus). Comparitively, BUG tempo is more like a Mack truck: slower to get going, but once on its way can wreck through that brick wall if needed.

With Deathrite Shaman now everywhere, I think tempo decks will need to adapt to better answer this card. I think RUG should strongly consider upping its maindeck removal count to 8, perhaps with the entire playset of Forked Bolt to help answer Shaman and the seemingly ubiquitous Lingering Souls. (Seriously... I lost to a 'Haunted Zoo' deck last night that splashed black for Shaman AND Souls... what is the world coming to?) With BUG, I'm not entirely sure what it can do maindeck... Lingering Souls is definitely a problem card for the deck since it 'dodges' Hymn and can effectively gain upwards of 20 life and protect a Jace. The sideboard definitely needs some answers to the card.

I think comparing Team America to BUG Midrange/Control decks is missing the point, since although these decks play many of the same cards, they both support a completely different gameplan and strategic goal. You might as well compare the deck to Esper Blade, which actually has more in common with TA's bigger cousins. However, RUG and BUG are like brother decks, since the two are both hoping to exploit similar metagames.

BKclassic

12-19-2012, 01:04 AM

This is my version of Tempo Thresh for the current Abrupt Decay metagame:

MD 61
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Sulfuric Vortex

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
3 Force of Will

SB 15
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Rough/Tumble
3 Submerge
1 Mind Harness
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Krosan Grip
1 Envelop
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Tormod's Crypt

Sulfuric Vortex is additional reach in the current metagame and replaces the lackluster Forked Bolt. It is helps overload Abrupt Decay to beat BUG decks and the card beats UW decks. I am running a Volcanic Island as a 61 first card mainly to help resolve Sulfuric Vortex. Maybe 61 cards is wrong but I was inspired by Caleb Duward to experiment. FoW isn't that great right now and I like how often I see the three copies in 61 card deck. I am also pleased by the marginal increase in the amount of mana in the deck. I have often felt 18 lands is not quite enough and 19 lands is slightly too many for Threshold. Speaking of 3-of's, I am running only 3 Nimble Mongoose since they are weak Deathrite Shahman and there is Sulfuric Vortex as another difficult-to-answer threat. Mind Harness and Vendilion Clique in the SB act as additional threats against BUG decks.

KobeBryan

12-19-2012, 01:06 AM

BKclassic

12-20-2012, 02:08 AM

how can you say FOW isn't great right now...did you see how many combo decks were out there at scg las vegas?

if anything, why do you need spell snare?

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9747

The SCG Vegas Top Eight is basically a showcase of decks that I designed my deck to beat. Sneak Attack probably is the hardest match up, which is why Envelop and Vendilion Clique along with REB and Krosan Grip are all in the SB. The deck has lots of tools against Hive Mind, Elves and Ad Nauseam. Sulfuric Vortex is amazing against Stoneblade, Miracles, and Team America. I have Rough/Tumble, Submerge, Mind Harness to bring in against Bant Aggro and Spell Snare has many targets in this match up. Spell Snare is great against six of these eight decks.

apistat_commander

12-20-2012, 09:59 AM

This is my version of Tempo Thresh for the current Abrupt Decay metagame:

MD 61
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Sulfuric Vortex

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
3 Force of Will

SB 15
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Rough/Tumble
3 Submerge
1 Mind Harness
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Krosan Grip
1 Envelop
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Tormod's Crypt

- Sulfuric Vortex is a sideboard card, not maindeck material. It is actively terrible in many matchups and if you want to run it as a threat, it ought to replace a creature and not a removal spell.
- You are relying on your Lightning Bolts to do a lot of heavy lifting. How will you ever beat Tribal or Maverick with this set-up? You also need to be able to answer T1 Deathrite, as that card shits all over our deck if it sticks around.
- Force of Will isn't good in some matchups right now, but is golden in others. Sure it sucks in an attrition war, but you really need to Force that Terminus/Counterbalance out of Miracles and you won't always have the mana open for Stifle/Snare/Pierce. Free countermagic is one of the reasons this deck can get away with so few lands.
- I like a 3/3 split of Snare/Pierce but I think you are cutting other necessary things to fit it in.
- Less than 4 Nimble Mongoose is wrong. Mongoose is our most resilient threat and wins me so many games I have no business being in. Getting in for that last 3 points and having your opponent flop a hand of removal on the table is an awesome feeling.

apistat_commander

12-21-2012, 10:04 AM

Went 4-0 at my local last night with this list:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt

8 Fetch
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

SB:
3 Pyroblast/REB
1 Envelop
1 Divert
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Sylvan Library
1 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Submerge
2 Mind Harness

Played the following decks:

- Scapeshift (2-0) - Get there on the back of a quickly flipped Delver and a smattering of countermagic. I have been blown out by this deck before so it was nice to defeat him in convincing fashion. Key cards: Delver, Force, Spell Snare.

- Elves (2-0) - Newer legacy player and he ran his elves right into my Forked Bolts. He punted Game 1 away by going all in on Summoner's Pact and Game 2 Submerge + burn tore him apart. Key cards: Forked Bolt, Submerge.

- Reanimator (2-0) - Game one I open a hand of countermagic + threat + land, and he only draws a single reanimation spell. Game 2 I draw a ton of countermagic and he scoops when I counter his 3rd reanimation spell in a row. Key cards: countermagic.

- Junk (2-1) - Game one is a short and brutal affair where I draw multiple Wastelands and Stifles to keep him out of the game. Game 2 my dudes get Decay'ed and Plowed and he resolves a Choke when I am tapped out with no countermagic. Game 3 I stick a Sylvan Library on Turn 2 and ride it to victory. My opponent did make some misplays this game, but overall I still think I would have taken it off the back of Sylvan Library. Key cards: Library, Mongoose, Submerge.

I was pretty happy with my maindeck. The counter package felt really well balanced and having 4 one mana counters was good all night. The sideboard could use some work, as I never really wanted to bring Mind Harness in. I think that I will run some number of Sulfur Elemental, Rough//Tumble, or Envelop in those slots.

Pherion

12-21-2012, 11:09 AM

firstshot

12-21-2012, 02:24 PM

Divert seems pretty mediocre. If it could reliably counter abrupt decay I would play it but it doesn't. Too often you will have the only legal target in play so it does nothing.

Also anyone who is playing less then 4 nimble mongoose is doing it wrong. The card is INSANE in a format filled with abrupt decay. Why would you cut your best threat in the current format.

My current maindeck is

4 wasteland
8 fetchland
3 Volcanic
3 Tropical

4 Nimble
4 Delver
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
1 Dismember
1 Chain Lightning/Forked Bolt. Was Though Scour want an extra deathrite removal right now

If the format is very combo heavy I could see running some spell pierce's in the main. I could also possibly see shaving the 4th FOW from the main.

Sideboard
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Rough/Tumble
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Submerge
1 PyroBlast
2 spell pierce
1 grim lavamancer

Ben

Fossil4182

12-21-2012, 02:28 PM

apistat_commander

12-21-2012, 03:05 PM

4 Spell Snare seems like overkill. While it does catch some important threats it is still dead in enough situations that I wouldn't want to see that many. Pierce is still pretty good against the field even if games have slowed down some.

What are you thoughts on Chain Lightning versus Forked Bolt? My intuition is to suggest Chain Lightning over Forked Bolt. Against a deck like UW Miracles or even BUG, having three damage to burn out Jace, the Mind Sculptor seems necessary if you're not running Spell Pierce in the maindeck. It also gives the deck more reach against BUG tempo decks allowing you to just burn them out if need be.

I don't get the move to Chain Lightning. If you are running burn in that slot it is for creature removal. So the question isn't what is the best burn spell in this slot, it is what is the best creature removal here? Sometimes Chain Lightning will provide additional reach, but other times it won't (such as when you are burning out an x/1). It is awesome against most creature based strategies and handles one half of Lingering Souls which is a huge problem for this deck. Both cards are going to come out against any control deck so I just don't see why you would trade the flexibility and power of Forked Bolt to occasionally get one extra point of damage in a few game one situations.

Pherion

12-22-2012, 01:57 PM

Here's my current deck list, comments and responses below:

Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

Cantrips
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Thought Scour

Control
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare

Burn
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Forked Bolt
1 Chain Lightning

Lands
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Submerge
3 Pyroblast
2 Rough // Tumble
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Flex Slot (currently Divert)

I am firmly in the camp of 4 Nimble Mongoose being mandatory for this deck. With so many decks running between 2 and 4 Abrupt Decays, you just have to have this little beater to win games. He dodges so much! Tying in with this, I think the two Thought Scours are also needed to make the Mongoose that much more of a threat.

For counter magic, mine is pretty standard. Not running Stifle at the moment, because I fell that the only deck we really want to stifle out is the mirror. Most BUG decks are running at least 20 lands, if not more and devoting 4 slots to a mana denial plan that's not actually going to work as well as we'd like seems a bit counterproductive. I'm splitting Spell Pierce and Spell Snare 2/2 at the moment, but I might drop a Snare for a third Pierce if the metta speeds up any.

Burn is where I've stocked up on spells this time around. I've got a total of eight burns, with a split of 3/1 between Forked Bolt and Chain Lightning. The forked bolts are almost mandatory at this point with enough of the Rock decks running a number of Lingering Souls and Dark Confidant. Not to mention it also kills Deathrite Shaman. The one Chain is just for that elusive point of burn. If Souls sees a comeback, I'd be tempted to switch out to a full play set of Forks.

In the sideboard I think I'm running something rather standard. The 4 Submerges are for the BUG match-ups where I feel we need the extra removal help. Sulfuric Vortex and Pyroblast for the control and combo match-ups. The Rough // Tumble are primarily for Goblins, but could come in for other tribal or agro plans. Surgical Extraction for the graveyard match-ups. And the one flex slot at the moment is a Divert which I'm still not sold on. I'd like to find room for two Ancient Grudges again, but I'm just not sure what to cut out.

Cheers everyone, and good luck!

cheerios

12-23-2012, 10:40 AM

@pherion
how's your esperblade matchup? Lingering souls can be an issue without sulfur elemental.

Pherion

12-23-2012, 11:03 AM

@pherion
how's your esperblade matchup? Lingering souls can be an issue without sulfur elemental.

I honestly haven't run into it yet. I've been playing Miracles for the last six months, and just flipped back to RUG to change the pace. I was basing the deck off of the metta I saw while playing Miracles. And honestly I haven't seen THAT many lingering souls that I think the three forked bolts in the main can't deal with them.

feline

12-25-2012, 04:35 AM

Congrats Rug, in looking over all the successful lists since Return to Ravnica Legacy, RUG/Threshold/RUG Delver, whatever it would be called, is still the deck to beat with the most top 16's by far compared to the rest of the field, as well as being tied with the most 1st place finishes, currently holding 2 1st place finishes, tied with only 3 other decks that have had a 1st place finish twice. As a combo player myself, I prefer not running into the RUG matchup as all those counters are a pain! But it can't be denied that the deck just keeps performing, and if I was smart I would be playing RUG by default just because it keep's having the most success, those are not numbers I can ignore!

Also if you're curious, Esperblade, Miracle control, & BUG in the form of BUG aggro & BUG control variants are the other decks popping up the most with large enough numbers, according to www.thecouncil.es & www.starcitygames.com, that I'd call these decks the tier 1 strategies right now, as for Maverick, it is on the decline & it's numbers put it at 6th, enough so that I'd no longer consider it tier 1.

Vandalize

12-26-2012, 12:52 PM

People said that Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay would push Canadian out of the top tier. Turns out their WRONG. I've playtested against BUG Control and Team America for 20 matches each, and the results were: BUG Control -> 15/5 (Win/Losses) and Team America (18/2). Junk is a little harder due to Knight of the Reliquary and Swords to Plowshares.

This was mainly due to:

- Stifle and Wasteland. These guys are working like they've never worked before. BUG and Junk have the greediest manabases, and they run into Stifle like a moron.

- Nimble Mongoose. This guy just shines bright. Shroud rapes Legacy.

- 7 Burn Spells maindeck. This is necessary. Deathrite Shaman is a bitch, just because he works as a manadork, I couldn't care less for his other abilities. The ramp he provides is what makes him awesome.

- Spell Snare. Countering Hymn to Tourach and Tarmogoyf is pretty big now.

- Hidden Gibbons in sideboard. This card is just pure AWESOME. It works like a one-sided Standstill. People are actually afraid of casting instants and be beaten by a 4/4 Donkey Kong. Seriously, playtest this.

This is my latest list:

Lands [18]
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

Creatures [12]
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets//Insectile Aberration

Spells [30]
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Forked Bolt
1 Chain Lightning

Sideboard [15]
3 Submerge
3 Hidden Gibbons
2 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Rough//Tumble
2 Pithing Needle
1 Envelop

I've made the 2/1 Forked Bolt/Chain Lightning split just because Forked Bolt sucks at targeting the throat. 3 Daze has worked fine so far. I haven't missed the fourth, but I could be wrong.

Comments and criticism are welcome.