[Deck] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

[catmint]

Rough tumble is not very good. Shardles does usually not play confidant and snapcaster. What they play is baleful strix, so ancient grudge is really good against them. If there are strixes around it hits also shardles and sometimes their random jitte.

[Atog]

Rough tumble is not very good. Shardles does usually not play confidant and snapcaster. What they play is baleful strix, so ancient grudge is really good against them. If there are strixes around it hits also shardles and sometimes their random jitte.




against blade i would consider siding in Rought // Tumble since it hit's Confidant, SFM and DSR and Snappies. What others think about that plan?



I was referring to deathblade matchup :) Agreed on grudge against BUG, hitting strix and agent even they get value from both is ok, atleast avoiding to trade your dudes to strix seems to warrant grudge.

[thecrav]

Shardless BUG doesn't play any basics at all, so your wastelands are golden. Also Stifle is great there since it hits cascade and wrecks their fragile manabase. Just try keep DSR off table and hit their manabase if possible.

My issue with the BUG matchup thus far has been that I just don't have the resources to compete. It terms of lands, at most, I can waste 4 and Stifle 4 fetches, but that assumes I get everything perfect and requires me to spend a lot of my turns addressing their manabase rather than dealing with their threats or playing anything else.

Keeping DRS off board means I'm holding back most of my bolts specifically for their deathrites.

If they land a Liliana, I'm really screwed. They'll slowly blow up my board and take control of the game from there.

Perhaps I simply haven't tuned my list adequately for this matchup, but I find it to be the hardest matchup in my local meta.

[catmint]

I play both canadian and sharldes and to me it is a fair fight. Card advantage/answers requirig mana vs. denial/fast clock.
However, imo shardles has more space to tune vs. Canadian if the want to beat it than the other way round. Tuning vs. shardless I would play 2 dismember main to kill goyfs and play 7 removal spells overall to kill deathrites. In the board red-blasts, submerge and ancient grudge are pretty solid. Submerge not as a 4of though (only 2-3). Forces and Dazes should come out, but stifle/pierce/snare are all very strong.

[Mr. Crane]

Rough tumble is not very good. Shardles does usually not play confidant and snapcaster. What they play is baleful strix, so ancient grudge is really good against them. If there are strixes around it hits also shardles and sometimes their random jitte.

acctually ´m like both, 1 rough and 1 grudge, im testing 2 rough´s 0 grudge´s and 2 grudge 0 rough´s.

[Griselpuff]

Also, what is the secret to the RUG mirror? Which cards are good and what's the best way to play it (i.e. when to cast cantrips and bolts etc. etc.?)

[jtos84]

I have played rug quite a bit. I used to play it more than anything else about six years ago. The decks you named in an earlier post are winning for the same reasons, just in different ways. It is card advantage. Some of those decks are accomplishing it though hymn to tourach, and probably unknowingly through the rug players fows. The other method, as with deathblade, is the card advantage that each of their creatures creates. Each one allows you to do something that should have taken another card, or just gives you another card.

Rug would probably suffer a lot more if players were making certain plays with certain cards. I'm not going to mention what they are because this is not the place, and that would be to easy for many players. I made this play probably two times in the master tournament though.

Certain plays make rug perform optimally. An early mongoose, and especially two is nearly always a win. Knowing how to use submerge from the s/b (when the opponent cracks a fetch) is a huge play. Aside from those things it will come down to knowing the metagame, and what s/b you should use. I think the s/bing is what ultimately determines success that particular day.

Also in legacy (and this goes with any deck you play) knowing how to play your opponents deck just as well as they do will win you a lot more games.

[jtos84]

Also, what is the secret to the RUG mirror? Which cards are good and what's the best way to play it (i.e. when to cast cantrips and bolts etc. etc.?)

I was playing this mirror the other day. If both players know how to play the deck it comes down to the opening hand. Basically remember to watch out for daze, and stifle while always being ready to use them against your opponent. In the mirror match brainstorms are good for searching up lands. I guess this is where I can mention that play I was talking about above. If you have surgical extraction in your s/b you can use it on a tropical island, or any green creature and it is devastating.

Cutting the opponent out of green should be the focus of your wastelands. Very rarely should you target a volcanic island. Its only to keep you from losing the game to a bolt, and that is only if it is already tapped. Game one is not nearly as important as s/bing. The rug mirror is not where you want to be though. It is obviously going to be difficult. Rug will have a good match with combo, and the rest depends on the s/b.

I thought of a good way to explain how you should think of the deck's strategy. This is like playing sligh with counterspells. Your bolts are for use in combination with combat damage to clear the board, or as spot removal for shamans, or anything else that seems worth of bolting. They should used for reach (to win the game) instead of casting one at your opps face when they are at 15. It is better to just hold onto them until a threat arises, or you are within "reach".

[kiwi]

If your metagame has got a lot of rug tempo decks, life from the loam in the sideboard is the correct way, another good option is mind harness for stealing goyf!!!, and of course to play 4 submerges rather than 3.

Play dismembers in main deck rather than forked bolts, in my opinion is a good idea for killing goyfs in the mirror.

[kai_nsane]

Hey Guys,

i'm joining your team and play RUG Delver. I playtest a lot at Cockatrice and MWS. I like to play the reactive role in a game and the switch fast into the agressor.

Can you give me some basically tipps. E.g.w What i should board against this MU's, Goblins, Pox, Esperblade, Uw Miracle, UW Helm Combo, Jund, Maverick and BUG.
Also some gametips, when i should Mulligan, How do i usw Stifle at the best?

Thank you very much.

[catmint]

I don't think your questions are a good start. To answer them properly you can basically write a book...or at least a huuge primer. If you think it is apropriate for others to go through that effort so you can learn to play a deck quicker, mabye it would also be aprorpirate to read through the last ~50 pages of the thread (should be quick if you filter out all the "non advise"), make your own conclusions, apply it in testing and then come back with some specific questions.

Aside from that.. welcome to the deck. :smile:

[Barbed Blightning]

Hey Guys,

i'm joining your team and play RUG Delver. I playtest a lot at Cockatrice and MWS. I like to play the reactive role in a game and the switch fast into the agressor.

Can you give me some basically tipps. E.g.w What i should board against this MU's, Goblins, Pox, Esperblade, Uw Miracle, UW Helm Combo5, Jund, Maverick and BUG.
Also some gametips, when i should Mulligan, How do i usw Stifle at the best?

Thank you very much.

wcm8 did a stellar job with sideboard strategy and basically every conceivable card you can play. Posts are here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13715-DTB-Canadian-Thresh-(a-k-a-RUG-Tempo-Tempo-Thresh)&p=719056&viewfull=1#post719056

Otherwise, the deck is both easy to play and difficult to master. Sometimes you'll just have every answer to your opponent and you'll waste/stifle/daze/bolt them out of any turn 1 or two set up. Other times you'll be fighting just to stay in the game. Cantrips, Brainstorm especially, are incredibly difficult at times and are when you should be planning out your turns, as they give you access to the tools like wasteland or stifle.

The only true rules (I think) is to always play Delver on turn one if on the play and to mulligan if you have a hand of zero blue sources or more than two lands (though this can also vary). Everything else morphs to fit the matchup and game state.

Stifle is also a tricky card to play as it can be sometimes back-breaking and other times underwhelming. There's a very wide field currently, with many tri-color decks, so it's obvious role as one-mana stone rain is still good. But if you're playing against miracles or goblins, it should be saved for other things, like Miracle, Lackey, Piledriver, Rest in Peace, Krenko, etc. triggers.

The deck has a lot of flexibility and power, with its strength scaling to its pilot's experience; the more you play, the better you get. That said, welcome aboard!

[Sasan]

Has anyone tested Young Pyromancer in the deck? Perhaps as a main deck card even, replacing Goyf? How were the results?

It is sometimes better than a Goyf and sometimes it is a dead top deck. I am not sure on the card.

[SirTylerGalt]

A few RUG Delver resources:

Drew Levin's "Ultimate RUG Delver Primer":
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/23898_The-Ultimate-RUG-Delver-Primer.html

Paolo Cesari's articles:

http://jupitergames.info/articles/2012/51848/the-captains-log-rug-delver

http://jupitergames.info/articles/2012/51877/the-captains-log-building-a-rug-sideboard

http://jupitergames.info/articles/2012/52571/the-captains-log-stifled-opportunities-2

http://jupitergames.info/articles/2013/52617/the-captains-log-adapting-rug-for-the-current-metagame

Also, Jacob Wilson, who recently won a SCG open, was 2nd at GP Strasbourg, streamed a few games yesterday playing RUG Delver on ChannelFireball:

http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-jacob-wilson-legacy-rug-delver/

[wcm8]

My current approach to playing the deck is splashing for Deathrite Shaman, which I guess is basically the 'BURG' list in N&D.

My current list:

19 Lands (3/3/1 Trop/Volc/Underground, 8 Fetch, 4 Waste)
4/4/4/4 Delver/ Goose/ Goyf/ Shaman
4/2 Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning (I've also tested Forked Bolt and Abrupt Decay in the Chain slots, meta-dependent)
4/4 Ponder/Brainstorm
4/4/3 FoW/Daze/Spell Pierce

Combo gets a bit weaker game one, but the SB helps address that. (And actually, there is a fair amount of combo that has trouble against graveyard disruption). I really think Shaman pushes this version farther ahead in the mirror than Stifle. A single Underground Sea tends to be enough to activate DRS in the matchups where you really need that portion of its ability. Consider some of the cards that give RUG some of the most trouble: opposing Wastelands, Thalia, Lingering Souls, Snapcaster -> StP, opposing DRS, etc... All can be at least somewhat mitigated by playing your own DRS.

Having 12 legitimate turn 1 threats really helps push the deck's consistency a lot. But I'm sure there are a lot of die-hards that will still want to stick with the existing 3-color version.

[kingtk3]

How is the reanimator matchup (the one playing lotus petals)? I've searched through the thread but didn't find anything.
What's your side plan?

[Barbed Blightning]

How is the reanimator matchup (the one playing lotus petals)? I've searched through the thread but didn't find anything.
What's your side plan?

Like most combo matches, fairly positive.

Tin fins is fast, but as a result sometimes inconsistent. Stifle hits the obvious plus children of korlis, storm triggers and grizzlebees. Spell snare is live due to the use of shallow grave and goryos vengeance. It can be very greedy; punish accordingly.

[SirTylerGalt]

I finished 2nd out of 20+ players at a local tournament on thursday.

Decklist:


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
2 Gitaxian Probe

3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand

SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Rough // Tumble
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Life from the loam
SB: 1 Flusterstorm


I replaced 1 Spell Pierce and 1 Thought Scour with 2 Gitaxian Probe, since it seemed to be effective in Jacob Wilson's decklist that won the last SCG Open. I had experimented with 1 Probe before, and wanted to try 2. 3 seems like a lot... I also wanted to add 1 Snapcaster Mage for the surprise factor, but 3 mana is a lot for RUG Delver, and Jacob said on twitter it wasn't that good.
I took inspiration from his sideboard, adding 1 Clique, 1 Life from the Loam, and 1 Flusterstorm to my SB, removing 1 Ancient Grudge, 1 Sulfur Elemental, and 1 Sulfuric Vortex. Clique and Flusterstorm were for combo decks. I know Life From the Loam is slow, but it's good against midrange decks and in the mirror. Recurring Wasteland also seems like a good strategy to beat Jund / Deathblade.
I didn't have Grafdigger's Cage, and I don't like Zuran Orb, so I played 2 Surgical Extraction. While Surgical is not ideal against Dredge, I like it because it can also help against combo, to mess with their graveyard and gain information. It's also a 2-for-1 against Reanimator (since they need to put another creature in the yard), and helps against the Undercity Informer deck (I saw at least one guy play it in my meta). Some people bring it in the mirror, but I'm not sure it's a good idea. Also, Dredge is already a pretty good matchup, if you know what to do. You can counter his enablers, bolt your own Delver to exile his bridges, etc. Surgical Extraction on Narcomoeba is often enough to slow him down.

I didn't have any paper with me so didn't take many notes, but...

Round 1 - Mono red burn - 2-0

Goyf and mongooses won me both matches.

G1 I wasted my own wasteland (yes it's legal) to get threshold faster to kill him with my mongooses. His Grim Lavamancer was a little annoying at the beginning of the game, but I finally found a burn spell.

G2 I had enough pressure, stabilized at 10 life with Goyf, and wasted my own land in response to his Price of Progress.


Round 2 - RUG Delver - 1-1

G1 I made a mistake. We both had threshed mongooses, and instead of trading, we started a damage race, which I was losing... I had a bolt in hand and thought it would help me, but alas I ended up stabilizing on 1 life, unable to use fetchlands and FoW for his goyf...

G2 I won (don't remember much)

G3 We only had 7 minutes, and when I saw I couldn't kill him in the extra turns, I played defensively to secure the draw


Round 3 - RUG Delver 2-0

Friend of mine who is building RUG Delver. Sadly, he is still missing a Volcanic Island, so he plays with 2 Volcanic Island and 4 Tropical Island... He is also missing some SB cards, like Submerge...

I forgot what I did in those games, I guess I just drew more gas and my better SB cards gave me the win.

One thing I didn't like: when he plays a brainstorm, he draws the 3 cards all at once, and it sometimes looked like he drew 4. Not sure what I should do in those cases. Should I keep asking him how many cards he has in hand all the time to make sure? Or tell him he must draw them one by one? It was hard to keep track... Also, at some point, he casts a Ponder, and goes to draw 3 cards into his hand (like a Brainstorm), so I had to stop him...

Round 4 - Omnitell 2-0

Some local "pro" player, with pimped Omniscience deck (only japanese foils). He seemed to fit the typical arrogant Omnitell player, but I might be biased :) I know he is on Omniscience because I was sitting next to him the previous round. I act like I'm a noob, saying I started playing Legacy IRL and going to tournaments since only 1 month (which is true). What he doesn't know, is that I played Legacy on Cockatrice for 1 year, and know the format very well :)


G1: I keep a hand with FoW, Stifle, Ponder, Gitaxian Probe, a few lands and a Mongoose (I think). He goes Island, Preordain. I probe him, see another Island, City of Traitors, Enter the Infinite, 2 Brainstorm, and no other combo pieces. I know I have a few turns until he assembles the combo, so I tap out to play Mongoose and then Goyf, and start beating. I think I read on The Source that you can tap out during the first 2 turns against OmniTell, since it's quite slow to assemble the combo, and they often won't combo without protection against RUG Delver (you might have Daze / FoW). But Gitaxian Probe gives you a lot more confidence :)
On turn 5 or 6, I play my fourth land, and have in hand: 2 FoW, 1 Forked Bolt, 1 Stifle, 1 Land. On his turn, he goes for it. He plays Show&Tell, I FoW, exiling Stifle. He FoWs. Show&Tell resolves... He puts Dream Halls into play, I put my land. He casts Enter the Infinite, I respond by tapping my lands and casting FoW... He flips: "wtf you are so lucky to draw all these lands". Dude, I'd rather have drawn a blue card, which I would have exiled to cast my FoW...

Out:
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
2 Nimble Mongoose
1 Stifle

In
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Flusterstorm

I think I might have sided out 1 Mongoose and 2 Stifle, not sure. I keep Spell Snare in for Defense Grid. It's a blue card for FoW anyway...

G2:
My hand has Surgical Extraction, Pyroblast, Delver, Ponder, a few lands. I keep it, hoping I can apply some early pressure then Ponder into more counterspells.
On turn 3 or 4 I have drawn a Daze, and play a Mongoose to increase my clock. EOT he Cunning Wishes. I do not daze it, hoping he gets Intuition like he did during G1 :) He does. He then mainphases an Intuition. I act worried, but let it resolve. He gets 3 Show&Tell, and passes the turn, planning to kill me next turn. EOT, I cast Surgical Extraction on his Show&Tell. Which negats all his efforts from the last two turns (and 6 mana invested), and removes his main path to victory :) He flips out, says how I'm so lucky and so on. He had the kill next turn with double pact protection :) I act apologetic, "Yeah man, sorry, it happens. I have no idea why I sided this in. Thought it would be better than Forked Bolt. Guess I got lucky.". He storms out.



Conclusion

There is no top 8 at these weekly tournaments. I get my 4 Dragon's Maze booster packs for 2nd place. Nothing of value in there... The prizes suck at this store, but hey it's only 4€ admission fee, and there are always 20+ people playing Legacy. It was worth it anyway, just for the look of the OmniTell player who lost against a "noob" :)

It's also my first top 8. Last time I played, I ended up 9th out of 45+. Maybe next time I'll win the tournament :)

Once Young Pyromancer is legal, I think I will switch to Grixis Tempo, or maybe Next Level Threshold with Punishing Fire + Young Pyromancer.

[Barbed Blightning]

Round 4 - Omnitell 2-0

Some local "pro" player, with pimped Omniscience deck (only japanese foils). He seemed to fit the typical arrogant Omnitell player, but I might be biased :) I know he is on Omniscience because I was sitting next to him the previous round. I act like I'm a noob, saying I started playing Legacy IRL and going to tournaments since only 1 month (which is true). What he doesn't know, is that I played Legacy on Cockatrice for 1 year, and know the format very well :)

G1: I keep a hand with FoW, Stifle, Ponder, Gitaxian Probe, a few lands and a Mongoose (I think). He goes Island, Preordain. I probe him, see another Island, City of Traitors, Enter the Infinite, 2 Brainstorm, and no other combo pieces. I know I have a few turns until he assembles the combo, so I tap out to play Mongoose and then Goyf, and start beating. I think I read on The Source that you can tap out during the first 2 turns against OmniTell, since it's quite slow to assemble the combo, and they often won't combo without protection against RUG Delver (you might have Daze / FoW). But Gitaxian Probe gives you a lot more confidence :)
On turn 5 or 6, I play my fourth land, and have in hand: 2 FoW, 1 Forked Bolt, 1 Stifle, 1 Land. On his turn, he goes for it. He plays Show&Tell, I FoW, exiling Stifle. He FoWs. Show&Tell resolves... He puts Dream Halls into play, I put my land. He casts Enter the Infinite, I respond by tapping my lands and casting FoW... He flips: "wtf you are so lucky to draw all these lands". Dude, I'd rather have drawn a blue card, which I would have exiled to cast my FoW...

Out:
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
2 Nimble Mongoose
1 Stifle

In
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Flusterstorm

I think I might have sided out 1 Mongoose and 2 Stifle, not sure. I keep Spell Snare in for Defense Grid. It's a blue card for FoW anyway...

G2:
My hand has Surgical Extraction, Pyroblast, Delver, Ponder, a few lands. I keep it, hoping I can apply some early pressure then Ponder into more counterspells.
On turn 3 or 4 I have drawn a Daze, and play a Mongoose to increase my clock. EOT he Cunning Wishes. I do not daze it, hoping he gets Intuition like he did during G1 :) He does. He then mainphases an Intuition. I act worried, but let it resolve. He gets 3 Show&Tell, and passes the turn, planning to kill me next turn. EOT, I cast Surgical Extraction on his Show&Tell. Which negats all his efforts from the last two turns (and 6 mana invested), and removes his main path to victory :) He flips out, says how I'm so lucky and so on. He had the kill next turn with double pact protection :) I act apologetic, "Yeah man, sorry, it happens. I have no idea why I sided this in. Thought it would be better than Forked Bolt. Guess I got lucky.". He storms out.


Just everything about this. Awesome.

[cheerios]

To the guys playing gitaxian probe, how has it been? Did you guys ever wish it was another card? I'm planning on switching to the probe for a tournament tomorrow but hasn't been able to test them probes.

[jtos84]

Gitaxian probe will allow you to acquire lines of play, plus cycle through your deck more rapidly. This is good for a deck that runs so few lands.

[yaWgnorW]

To the guys playing gitaxian probe, how has it been? Did you guys ever wish it was another card? I'm planning on switching to the probe for a tournament tomorrow but hasn't been able to test them probes.

Play it, at least 3. Its great. Never wished it was anything else.

[BKclassic]

So I lost a frustrating Game 3 to Maverick on MODO last night, and I was hoping to get some one else's opinion on the game. My opening hand was: Delver, Delver, Mongoose, Tarmogoyf, Trop, Fetch, Fetch. Double Delver seemed like a keep against Maverick, although the hand was woefully lacking in ways to interact with the opponent. I played Trop into Delver. Opponent plays Mother of Runes. Delver reveals another Delver on my upkeep, so I put a fetch into, sac, and play two more delvers. Opponent plays Thalia. On my turn Delver reveals Mongoose. I play a fetchland and Tarmogoyf. On my turn Delver's flip a dud, I sac a fetch, Delver reveals another dud. My Delvers flip next turn, but my opponent is able to stabilize with Jitte and is able to kill off my Delvers. He follows up with a couple Scavenging Oozes and I don't draw anything that I can interact with.

So I would have thought that a double Delver hand into the third Delver would have been enough to beat Maverick, but apparently not. Should I have mulliganed into a hand that had some actual interaction? The only other line of play would have been to just play 1 Delver on Turn 2 and hold up my Fetchland to improve my draw on my turn, as drawing into something to interact with my opponent was crucial. Any thoughts?

[Justin]

I could be wrong, but my inclination is that you were right to keep the hand, but were just unlucky. You obviously ship a hand like that back against combo, but it seemed good against a creature-based fair deck like Maverick. You whiffed on four blind Delver flips and never drew into countermagic, burn, or a cantrip until it was way too late. It's hard to win against any deck when that happens.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I could be wrong, but my inclination is that you were right to keep the hand, but were just unlucky. You obviously ship a hand like that back against combo, but it seemed good against a creature-based fair deck like Maverick. You whiffed on four blind Delver flips and never drew into countermagic, burn, or a cantrip until it was way too late. It's hard to win against any deck when that happens.

I agree. You had the worst luck in Delver flips I ever seen. Also, been any of your cards BS/Ponder, I think you'd won rapidly. The only trouble I find with your hand is that it lacked any answer to anything, but other than that, I'd keep it.


The only other line of play would have been to just play 1 Delver on Turn 2 and hold up my Fetchland to improve my draw on my turn, as drawing into something to interact with my opponent was crucial.
That's also the only thing that I thought of. Maybe you should have played it like this, because uncracked fetch could help you a lot, but otoh, if you'd blind-flip three Delvers on turn3, you'd not only won the game, but also never forget about this.

The more I think about it, the more I find your decision on turn2 very hard. You had no way to stop the oppoent from anything and in such a case it is reasonable to try to win asap, which means crack the fetch and play the dudes. Otoh, the fetchland and reveal-on-upkeep interaction might be helpful in finding some gas, and especially with a BS (or at least a Ponder) you could have shipped away the chaff and thus greatly increase your chance of winning for basically no cost: the Delvers would be there a turn later, yes, but your hand could have been better.

[wbw]

So, how does Young Pyromancer fare? Did anybody already tested it?

I'm planning on testing 2 of them, before I shell out $300 for a couple of Goyfs, but I would like to know if anyone already has results.

Regards!

[Bed Decks Palyer]

So, how does Young Pyromancer fare? Did anybody already tested it?

I'm planning on testing 2 of them, before I shell out $300 for a couple of Goyfs, but I would like to know if anyone already has results.

Regards!

A friend of mine tested Pyromancer in UR Delver, so maybe this isn't a place where to comment on the card, but still...

Basically it's a protection suite against Liliana that helps you completely circumvent her -2 ability by nothing more than playing your deck. The stream of 1/1s might be quite irrelevant against say Jund, which will moreover kill the dude with many of its removal, otoh, it's quite powerful against Canadian, because they have what, six removal at best? They need to kill the Delver, unless they wish to exchange it for their own Delver, and this leaves them with very few answers to the Pyromancer, a Bolt or two buried somewhere in their deck. (Lets pretend the opponent didn't counter the Pyromancer in a first place; to my defense, I think it's not that impossible, as Spell Snare isn't widely played anymore, and I don't think that a RUG player would waste Force on a 2/1 creature that dies to anything - unless he has no other option how to stop the mage, of course, e.g. no burn, all cantips already spent and/or no Volcanic available.)
If the opponent doesn't kill the Delver, Pyromancer will get him and vice versa (Delver been the more dangerous here imho, as all one needs is to flip him and ride to vicotry; otoh, Pyromancer needs constant stream of spells to be of any use... but this shouldn't be trouble in a 30cantrips.dec).
What I find extremely appealing on Pyromancer (and the friend I mentioned agreed with me, although he just played him for a while) is that he gives the deck card advantage and simultaneously makes some very interesting things in different matchups, e.g. in mirror you may easily ignore Goyf (but not two, at least not for too long), because you got a free chumpblocker approximately every other turn (in fact maybe more often) and with a little work, this should be enough to stall the game until Delver wins. The applications in different mathups are obvious, the usual trouble of running out of creatures when playing against any deck packing Liliana OTV shouldn't even be mentioned again, but there are also the smaller things, not that visible, like the option to chumpblock some big dude (or some 4/4 token) for long enough until you find your answer, be it Dismember (pre-board) or Submerge/Grudge post-board and then win the race with Goyfs, Delvers and... Pyromancer and his flow of 1/1s.
Otoh, this dude really dies to anything possible and has a big bull's eye painted all over his pockmarked adolescent face. He's obviously not really good in post-board games where you need sweepers, but these are the matchups where you'd really love his ability to stop the early onslaughts (Goblins), so he's quite counterproductive, unless I'm missing something.
In combo matchup this guy does very little, because the 1/1 dudes are fairly irrelevant, on the other hand, what you'd want more: Delver, Mongoose, Pyromancer or Goyf? Goyf is clearly the worst, because he'll be 3/4 most of the time (and forces you to fetch Tropical, which might be trouble with land light hands like fetch + Waste when you'd rather wish to have Volcanic so that you may burn and blast the opponent; ok, not that it's crucial, but still worthy a mention). Then there's Mongoose, which, unless you play with GP or even better with that new ugly Mental Note, might be a 1/1 for far too long. Delver is your best bet, no qustion; yes, sometimes it happens that you don't flip him for X turns in a row, but from the three original creatures, he's still the best. That leaves the silver medal for the Pyromancer, imho, as you may play him on turn2 just like you'd play Goyf (and he won't be much smaller than a Goyf) and now on you got a virtual 1/1 flash creature available, anytime you draw a BS or Daze. The ability to escalate the presure without just once tapping during your turn, and simultaneously interrupt opponents game, should be very convenient.

I don't plan to use the guy now, because the deck is already tight enough and I don't see any empty slot. You want four Delvers, because they fly. You want four Mongooses, because of shroud. You might cut the Goyfs to three. Now, we got one slot thanks to shaving a creature. It is possible to play with just three FoW (but I don't remember the last time I've seen such a decklist) and/or cut some of the one-ofs like Spell Snare, Dismember, Mental Note 2.0 or Forked Bolt. Would the Pyromacer be better than these cards? In some metagame - maybe. Overall? IDK.

But again, it's written mostly from the point of view of UR Delver, so take this with a grain of salt.

[wcm8]

Pyromancer is replacing Goyfs in my list for now. Testing has been very positive so far; it really only seems to be worse as a late game top-deck or against certain Red decks, otherwise it's been either as good or better than Goyf would be in most scenarios. Of course, I also run 4 DRS (and 4 Submerge in the SB), which helps mitigate the problem of opposing Goyfs. I wouldn't use it as a Goyf replacement if you aren't also running DRS.

Whether or not the card proves to be a keeper, plenty of people are going to be testing it in the next few weeks. Meaning, I would consider packing Forked Bolt as your secondary removal.

I tested Grixis, but don't really think that color combo offers enough strength in the current metagame. I think UR and RUG are the best shells for Pyromancer, outside of maybe as a Storm alt-win condition.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Thank you wcm8 for your opinion, it's always good to here what ppl with a real insight into Thresh think about unusual choices. (No offense the other guys, this thread is full of people who know the stuff, just that many wcm8's past posts really helped me to understand the deck much better.)
I won't cut Goyf for now, because I think that Pyromancer is better in straight UR. I may try two of them, though, because the card seems really strong. The only thing I disagree about is the idea to play the dude in storm, because cards like Storm Entity were never played. Otoh, this isn't Storm Entity, and this dude is super fun in a scenarios like turn1 land+RoF->Pyromancer, turn2 land+DRit+RoF->EtW.

[wbw]

Thanks for the answers!

Well, I don't have DRS on my list and probably won't in the future, since I failled to grab Underground Seas when I had the chance. But I'll still try 1 Goyf and 3 Pyromancers. Because of that, I'll use 2 Gitaxian Probe in the flex slots, a little bit of synergy is nice.

[lambert101]

Thinking about going to this weekend's SCG with the following

4 Delver
4 Goyf
4 Goose

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 FoW
4 Lighting Bolt
3 Forked Bolt
3 Spell Pierce

4 Misty
4 Tarn
4 Wasteland
3 tropical island
3 volcanic island

board:
3 rough//tumble
3 submerge
3 REB
1 flusterstorm
1 ancient grudge
1 life from the loam
1 sulfuric vortex
2 surgical extraction

Rationale for forked bolts is for the midrange deathrite decks. I feel good against combo and control. The forked bolts combined with rough//tumble and submerge to combat goyf and deathrite decks. Please leave comments and feedback.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

...
3 Forked Bolt
...

Rationale for forked bolts is for the midrange deathrite decks. I feel good against combo and control. The forked bolts combined with rough//tumble and submerge to combat goyf and deathrite decks. Please leave comments and feedback.

My feedback is that if you have the Bolts just for DRS (and not for example against any x/1 swarms and/or Mother of Runes decks), than you'd be better of with Chain Lightning. It deals more to the dome and they won't have RR open 95 % of time, because they'll use DRS proactively to cast stuff. But I might be wrong.

Btw, I don't use that much burn, instead of triple F. Bolt I got just one and the rest is Snare and Dismember. I like to kill Goyfs and germs, and I like to counter Infernal Tutor.

Also, a correct fetchland composition is 4 Strand, 4 Foothills. This way you mimic non-Stifle decks and even more, in case of Foothill you mimic non-blue. Not that it matters just 1 %, but I like it and I'd play it the moment I got back the Strands I sold. :-D

And, do you like to play without Sulfur Elememental? I knowthat Rough does the same, but Elemental has it's own pros, especially killing Ling. Souls tokens.

[apistat_commander]

Thinking about going to this weekend's SCG with the following

4 Delver
4 Goyf
4 Goose

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 FoW
4 Lighting Bolt
3 Forked Bolt
3 Spell Pierce

4 Misty
4 Tarn
4 Wasteland
3 tropical island
3 volcanic island

board:
3 rough//tumble
3 submerge
3 REB
1 flusterstorm
1 ancient grudge
1 life from the loam
1 sulfuric vortex
2 surgical extraction

Rationale for forked bolts is for the midrange deathrite decks. I feel good against combo and control. The forked bolts combined with rough//tumble and submerge to combat goyf and deathrite decks. Please leave comments and feedback.

- 3 Rough//Tumble seems like overkill. I never found myself wanting more than 2. I would try a Dismember, Mind Harness, Gilded Drake, or 4th Submerge in its place.
- Unless you expect to see a ton of blue, 3 REB also seems like a bit much. I would want either a second Flusterstorm or Spell Pierce instead.
- 3 Forked Bolt seems like overkill. If you really want to beat up on creature decks I would swap the 3rd FB for a Chain Lightning, Dismember, or Spell Snare.

[lambert101]

The forked bolts help out in all this midrange deathblade decks. Being able to hit multiple x/1s is huge. I originally had 2 forked bolts and a snare. Snare wasn't doing it for me. I have not missed Sulfur Elemental because besides Delver he gets swords in the uw and death and taxes match up. Instead I tried forked bolt which can take out 1/2 of a lingering souls, deathrite shaman, multiple x/1s, and counts as a sorcery for goyf.

[Watoo24]

I've been running:

4 goyf
4 goose
4 delver
2 young pyro

4 force
4 daze
3 spell pierce

4 bolt
1 chain lightning

4 ponder
4 brainstorm

4 waste
4 tarn
4 misty
3 volcanic
3 tropical

SB
3 submerge
3 flusterstorm
3 pyroclasm
2 pyroblast
2 dismember
2 ancient grudge

I've tested against miracles, goblins, and a bunch of random decks on cockatrice. Every time I've drawn pyro against the miracles deck its been wrath or die. I like him in concept. Other than that I can't remember other times I've cast him. I know once he got swords on my opponents turn 3, and I dazed it to get a token, and beat down for 5-10 turns with a token. He's solid against many things, but i'm still not convinced he is optimal to run. In order for him to feel good you need to get two tokens out of him. That's the minimum amount to make him worth it. That said I fully intend to keep him in the 60 for more testing.

I switched to pyroclasm in the board because i wanted to kill souls tokens. The optimal time to rough//tumble is when we have goyf or goose on the board. delver trades for half of souls anyway. Clasm kills them outright typically for a very big life point hit.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Watoo, just a random question: do you have any trouble with opposing Goyfs? You play zero Snares and Dismembers, so I'd expect that you may find them annoying. Also, is the Chain Lightning better than the two other possible removals, Forked Bolt/Dismember?
No graveyard hate in sb? How come?

[kiblast]

Is there any dedicated thread to Brug Tempo?

[SirTylerGalt]

Is there any dedicated thread to Brug Tempo?

I think it's:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25879-Deck-Castlevania-(A-K-A-Burg-or-BUG-in-a-RUG)

[gwarfreak]

I hope this is the place for this, I cannot seem to find a straight BUG delver forum. My current list is:
20 LANDS
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Bayou

14 CREATURES
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Vendilion Clique

24 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
3 Daze
2 Ponder
2 Gitaxian Probe (replacing the 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor in Timur Babakol's list)

SIDEBOARD
2 Snuff Out
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Deathmark
1 Infest
1 Life from the Loam
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Golgari Charm

I love everything about it, except the stifles. The stifles always seem to be in my hand being mostly useless toward the end of the game. The land count makes enemy stifles and wastelands recoverable. It also allows me to use drt and maintain pressure more effectively. The cliques go over the top of ground wars and act as a duress when needed. I have reach with drs and clique. Probe is incredible giving me the ability to understand was is important over the next few turns. I have repeatedly beat the more greedy RBUG version with a single wasteland and this deck does not have that same vulnerability. Abrupt Decay is always great and I do not miss the counterable and limited lightning bolt. The SB is prolly awful but I do not understand the format well enough to fix it. I have searched the last dozen pages or so for non-stifle versions and I cannot seem to find one. Drew Levin advocated cutting them (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/23898_The-Ultimate-RUG-Delver-Primer.html) but that is a year old article. I know if you cut the stifles, they end up with more land drops and thus your dazes and wastelands are much less powerful but I rarely seem to have the time/ ability to stifle because I have to press the attack. Is it a mostly settled question? Sinkhole seems too bulky but is it an option? What would I trade them for? More probe, daze, probe, thoughtsieze?

[Kl'rt]

I hope this is the place for this, I cannot seem to find a straight BUG delver forum.

Hi gwarfreak. Like how "RUG Delver's" real name is Canadian Threshold, "BUG Delver's" real name is Team America.

It's in the Decks to Beat section too: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11605-DTB-Team-America-(Aggro-Tempo-Thread)

[Teluin]

Watoo, just a random question: do you have any trouble with opposing Goyfs? You play zero Snares and Dismembers, so I'd expect that you may find them annoying. Also, is the Chain Lightning better than the two other possible removals, Forked Bolt/Dismember?
No graveyard hate in sb? How come?

He has trouble staying in a game once he's losing. The guy joined two of my games on cockatrice and both times he quit g1 when I hit his lands. I don't mean concede/move on to g2 either. He just quit.

[Watoo24]

Watoo, just a random question: do you have any trouble with opposing Goyfs? You play zero Snares and Dismembers, so I'd expect that you may find them annoying. Also, is the Chain Lightning better than the two other possible removals, Forked Bolt/Dismember?
No graveyard hate in sb? How come?

I've tested dismember in the main, and it just proved too specific. The ability to dome them just proved too relevant. Dismember was good, but only when it killed a goyf. Which is why i moved them to the board. Snare is a card that i thought about including, but at the time saw it as a card that only countered goyf, and when dismember gives me the ability to do so after its been cast; why not run it? I've since realized there are move cards to counter at two, but short of strix it hasn't felt important. Strix may make it worth it.

The lack of GY hate is because it, on the receiving end, feels like it simply puts off the problem rather than solves it. For oposing goyfs clasm makes them trade as well, and often can deal with many other threats as well. Dredge to some extent I hope to avoid it, but I do have quite a few counterspells, and dredge is very light on mana. if I can counter the dread return, and then clasm to deal with the zombies I should be okay, which leaves ichorid. Its probably worth it to put it in the board, but short of dredge i don't see a need for it. Even when against dredge it its not a good match up, but i don't feel its bad enough to use it.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Yesterday I finished eighth out of twenty+ in our LGS. I wanted to play something bad (like Terrageddon or Sac Land Tendrils), but didn't had time to build either deck, as I spent the whole day with some business.

Qty Name
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
//\\
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
//\\
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Forked Bolt
1 Dismember
//\\
// Sideboard
3 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Rough/Tumble
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Vendilion Clique

A question: Why when I copypaste the list from MWS, sideboard is always wrong and there are zeroes instead of real numbers?


Round 1, Jay, Omnitell
g1: I had crappy hand, my only pressure some 3/4 dude. On his nine life Jay shown and told Emrakul and I didn't have three Bolts.
sb: in Blasts, Clique, Flus, Grip, out Bolts, Dismember. I kept sole Snare for sole Impulse and to feed FoW.
g2: I heavilly pressed him with a 2/3 Goyf. He tried Defense Grid, but I countered it. Lately he played S&T into Dream Halls which I gripped in response to his next spell. He lost; I think there was some Pact of Negativity trigger involved, but I'm not sure.
sb: in Ancient Grudge, out something.
g3: I put him down to 3 with double Mongoose, then he played Dream Halls into Omni. This was bad, but thankfully I got KGRip again, so I gripped the thing in resp. to Draw Infinite Cards. If he hadn't Forced some of my previous spells with an Omni pitch, he could have played his last Omni through Dream Halls and then try to win. (It was fourth additional turn, though.) This way he was unable to do anything, so I won.
Win.


Round 2, Oh, UW Control
I thought Oh is a kiddy and expected an easy loss, thankfully he's got a real deck, just that he's from different city and thus I didn't know him.
g1: My relieve that I'm not against some bad deck didn't last for long; turn1 ETutor into CB was a miserable experience. Moreover I kept just a one lander and thus the game was over pretty fast with me on 19 life. Yep, turn1 Delver got there.
sb: KGrip, Blats, Flus, Needle, Vortex, Clique, maybe even Elemental. Out removal and few Goyfs.
g2: I Stifled the RIP trigger to keep my Goose big, then he landed Helm. I Stifled the first activation but was unable to find the three bolts in the one card I drawn.
g3: This game was full of stupid on both sides of the table. I started and instead of keeping my land to play Clique when he taps out on turn2 to play anything, I decided to Waste his Tundra. This way I was a land short of Clique when he played turn2 CB. I somehow managed to get rid of it and Clique beated him for few lives, but nothing special was happening. I played Needle which he Fowed with JTMS. Then Oh Termined Clique. Then he played RIP. Then ETutor for... SDT. He should have taken Helm, but he plays just one and feared my Force. He also ran his Clique into my Daze on turn-million. There were some Meddling Mages, too, but also Pyroblasts/Bolts. Game resulted in draw.
So did the match.


Round 3, Tee, UGBRDRS.dec
g1: Double Delver gets there. In other news, not putting lands to gy is a tech against double DRS.
sb: Submerges, Blasts, Needle, R/T (which was redundant), out some bad cards I can't tell now.
g2: I put him down to one life with double Delver, then he played Blast on one of them. I should have Pierced it and Tee wouldn't have Decay mana for the 2nd, but I decided to suck. This way he won on one life with double Goyf, as failed to draw any Bolt. (Note: I always fall into the Decay/Perish trap. Always. I mean: every time.)
g3: Turn one fetch. Tee: turn one USea into DRS. My turn2 was lay Waste, Needle the DRS, waste the USea. Since now it was quite easy. Triple Delver FTW.
Win.


Round 4, Mat, ANT
g1: I sculpted my hand instead of playing fast creatures, but people, my hand was so crappy I needed to do it like that. I had nothing but Pierce and then I got Daze or something. But this way he was still ahead and I failed to get any real cards. On turn-something I splash my four critters on board and then Mat won with natural ToA. (I should have played creatures asap and don't care if he wins on his turn, then sculpt the hand for counters. But really, it's so bad to sit against Storm, holding just Pierce...)
sb: Obvious
g2: I REBed his turn1 Probe which was a mistake. I didn't want him to gain info but he had other Probe. Then he BSed without fear and improved his hand, I should have kept the REB for it. Million turns later I finall got down Mongoose which killed him from 12 life due to fetches and Probes.
g3: Miserable game I don't even remember. I just Snared his CRit and that's about it. On his 10 life, Mat played AdN with two LEDs in play and card in hand, and instead of letting the Adn resolve and potentially kill him, I decided to lose. I Fowed the AdN and he operated his last card (IT) through my hellbent with an ease, at peace.
Loss.


Annoying tournament, definitely. Except for the 3rd round which was quite thrilling, the other matches were slow, boring and full of mistakes. Also, losing to Storm is becoming my new tradition...

[Strassbaw]

Hello everyone,

I am looking for good videos and/or articles to watch or read about this deck so I can play it more optimally. Side boarding cards out appropriately seems to be my largest area of weakness as I have not played this deck or any other blue decks in the format. Any links or suggestions would be appreciated.

Another topic I would like to bring up pertains to 2 game losses I had due to my opponents Wasteland and Surgical Extraction of my tropical island. To this I ask, is boarding in Surgical extraction good for the mirror match, and against decks with wasteland, should I never keep 1 land hands with a ponder on the draw when this threat could happen.

Finally, the topic of Force of Will in game 2: Which NON-Combo decks should I keep FOW in for. It was a bad idea for me to board FOW out against JUND said many player I was in the tournament I was with. This also allowed him to turn 2 waste surgical me when I had no mana up for my Spell Pierce or Stifle.

I would like to be competitive with more than just my goblin and burn deck so I would appreciate feedback. Thanks for taking the time to read.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Hello everyone,

I am looking for good videos and/or articles to watch or read about this deck so I can play it more optimally. Side boarding cards out appropriately seems to be my largest area of weakness as I have not played this deck or any other blue decks in the format. Any links or suggestions would be appreciated.

Another topic I would like to bring up pertains to 2 game losses I had due to my opponents Wasteland and Surgical Extraction of my tropical island. To this I ask, is boarding in Surgical extraction good for the mirror match, and against decks with wasteland, should I never keep 1 land hands with a ponder on the draw when this threat could happen.

Finally, the topic of Force of Will in game 2: Which NON-Combo decks should I keep FOW in for. It was a bad idea for me to board FOW out against JUND said many player I was in the tournament I was with. This also allowed him to turn 2 waste surgical me when I had no mana up for my Spell Pierce or Stifle.

I would like to be competitive with more than just my goblin and burn deck so I would appreciate feedback. Thanks for taking the time to read.

For a very lovely sb guide, follow this link: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13715-DTB-Canadian-Thresh-%28a-k-a-RUG-Tempo-Tempo-Thresh%29&p=719056&viewfull=1#post719056
Mostly I'd recommend spotting wcm8's traces in this thread, there were several very good posts which I unluckily forgot to save.
[searching]
E. g. here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13715-DTB-Canadian-Thresh-%28a-k-a-RUG-Tempo-Tempo-Thresh%29&p=718709&viewfull=1#post718709

There are several articles on Thresh, like here: http://jupitergames.info/articles/2012/52571/the-captains-log-stifled-opportunities-2

Some pro wrote an article about RUG where he advocated against Stifle, try finding it online for good laughs.

Search the last 20 or so pages for long posts (except mine :tongue: ) and esp. for links.
_________________________________

The Surgical Extraction plan is... well, I can't find words for how bad it is. I never lost to it in tournament (but ok, I don't visit them too often) and I even don't care of the much more possible Surgical on fetch (for which reason ppl play diversified fetchlands; I simply don't care as I like my decks uniformous), which is (contrary to Trop/Volc) a 100% guaranteed to fall into gy.

Yes, it is very very frustrating to lose because you can't play your spells, and it already happened to me that an opponent took out my Wastes this way (incorrect decision, of course, he should have taken Trops), but it's the very least thing I'd concern about.

The most problematic thing with RUGs mana is the opening stage (namely the initial hand) when you're often stuck on one land or even open with the stupid Waste-only hands. If there's something I'd love to improve, it'll be this, not my inability to fight a bad plan that happens to work one in a hundred games.

Warning: MWS story!
So, some dude extracted my Trops yesterday. Even though I have been crippled and drawn any green critter possible, the game still lasted for 59 turns until he finally run me of Delvers and Volcs. Was it funny? No way. It was frustrating words can't tell. Was it good plan? I'd guess you'd say "yes" cause he won, and I can't argue the fact. Otoh, if he had brought additional removal/discard, anything, maybe he'd won much faster.

Also, not only I assume the Extraction->Trop plan to be bad, there's also NO WAY how to fight it once they'll decide to use this plan.
Will you pack Taiga? Maybe as a 19th land and it's still the best you may do, at least it untaps under Choke.
Will you play shockland? (Especially alongside Dazes?) Even worse: painland? Or basic Forest? Years ago, when RUG was omnipresent, me and my friend played 19 lands with 5/6 fetches, 2 basics, 4 Wastes and the rest duals to avoid Stifle, Waste and the usual related stuff. It was good... back then. Today? U-um...
So, will you sb your own gy hate to "counter" their Extraction? In some matchups this might be viable, but what against Jund, Mav, anyone else willing to use this plan? Will it be of any use until they play the Extraction. Would you love to draw Crypt against Goblins so that you may "counter" their potential SE and then just die seven turns later with Crypt onboard and hand full of SEs?
The best way to fight this plan is to keep your lands intact. Just Stifle the Waste. Keep a fetch in play and find the targeted land in resp to SE. Play your Mongoose, Goyfs, Delvers and then turn them sideways laughing while they extract your lands.
Next: What if they counter your Goyf and then extract him while you sit on Taiga unable to Daze the Extraction? Now you're in a similar situation. Ok, at least you have your Taiga to play the Mongooses you'll draw. But it still sucks.

As much as I hate to lose in that fashion, I find it impossible to fight this plan or at least extremely hard. Otoh, this plan is unreliable and you may win (like it happened to me few times) even if it works, just because you already deployed your threats and Extraction doesn't prevent them from turning sideways.

If you're really concerned with this (and simultaneously hate DRS), you may try Ground Seal. Still the best I can think of.


PS: I'd love to read opinions on this matter from more experienced players. Seen how well placed Extraction (Trop/Goyf) might completely wreck us, I start to think if this card should become our concern.

[catmint]

Also, not only I assume the Extraction->Trop plan to be bad, there's also NO WAY how to fight it once they'll decide to use this plan.
....

As much as I hate to lose in that fashion, I find it impossible to fight this plan or at least extremely hard. Otoh, this plan is unreliable and you may win (like it happened to me few times) even if it works, just because you already deployed your threats and Extraction doesn't prevent them from turning sideways.


It seems you've spent a lot of time thinking about it, but gave yourself most of the answers why it is not a concern. Our local meta is infested with RUG and some think the surgical plan is good (I think it's bad because it suffers from consistency issues. I would rather have a counter, removal, threat rather than a very situational "blow out", but mostly just a shit card in this MU). My friend plays a taiga in the SB and hence funny fetches (really only a local tune). If I know my opponent is on that plan I would just use the "standard RUG cards" to try to play around it by having stifle or fluster/pierce open for their surgical (oh really :rolleyes:) or just fetch 2 trops at the same time or just have a fetch open.

In my opinion surgical vs. RUG is "bad players tech" and even if you sometimes have to swallow losing against "random" them playing this favors you more.



If you're really concerned with this (and simultaneously hate DRS), you may try Ground Seal. Still the best I can think of.

Haven't considered ground seal as tech vs. deathrite & snappy. Problem is it costs 2 mana and would likely replace graveyard slots. Comparing to Surgical extraction, ground seal does not enough vs. dredge (not a primary concern these days), but more important not hitting punishing fire or helping out as combo hate is tough though.

If you want to play ground seal as a way to help out in the RUG mirror then you fight "bad players tech" with "even worse players" tech. It would mean that the opponents surgical actually did something by making your deck a lot worse. :tongue:

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Yes, the only reason I'd ever use Ground Seal is in case my meta would be 3/4 DRS.dec and simultaneously people using the Extraction plan.

On the fetches: I use the 4 Rainforest + 4 Foothills combination because a) I like Foothills and have them signed, b) I may trick people into thinking I'm not blue, c) don't care of Needle/Extraction on one of the fetches and finally d) like my decks uniform.
If I'd be extremely concerned with the correct combination of fetchlands, I'd use something similar to what I played when RUG was big, except that I'd increase the overall number of fetches (Stifle is not omnipresent today) to eight and then I'd combine 3/4 Foothills, 3/4 Rainforest, 2 Tarn.
This way you may even incorporate one basic Forest (61st card?) if you really fear Waste/Extraction lock, and you're super safe of Needle->fetch "lock" (which was bad to not-really-good even in the pre-Zendikar times and now it's completely dead) and you may also still mimic Burn/Jund/Eves.
Not that the last thing matters in my case, as our metagame is small, everyone knows the two decks that I'm playing, everyones that I'm selling my stuff (and thus won't come with any other deck than Thresh/ANT), but in the big tournament (or wherever ppl don't know what you play) you might win some games by playing Foothills and letting the opponent run right into Daze/Stifle/Pierce.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Today I finished 2nd out of 14 in our LGS. I once again wanted to play something bad, or at least have some time to pimp the Thrash with new cards, but then I had no time to tinker with cards.


4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
//\\
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
//\\
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Forked Bolt
1 Dismember
//\\
// Sideboard
3 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Rough/Tumble
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Vendilion Clique


1st round, Luke with Jund.
Strange games. Lots of manascrew, but well, that's how it goes when you play Wasteland.format
g1: I played Mongoose, Mongoose and Delver (in whatever the order) and was unable to thresh/flip. He played Goyf but then was quite out of game with Swamp and Taiga. We raced and then on his 11 life I finally EOT threshed the Gooses and got him to four during my attack. Since now he had to block and it was just a matter of time before I drawn Bolt.
sb: out Dazes, some FoW, Dismember, in Submerges, Rough/Tumble, Needle, maybe Flus to fight Hymn.
g2: Me - 1x Volc, nothing, nothing. Him - Confidant, Goyf, Lili.
g3: I played Mongoose, Mongoose, Goyf, Goyf during the course of a game, add some Delver, too, but these died to Blasts and/or Bolts. On his sixteen, Luke drawn eight from Library, to get Lili, fourth land and REB (to fight Pierce/Stifle). Good move, luckily this moved his life total in my favor. Lili resolved. He also played BB ELf (I Stifled the trigger), whom I Roughed away and killed Lili. Unluckiy, he played double DRS, right after I waste the Rough, otoh, he misplayed and blocked the Goose. I thrown anything at him and overran him with gren dudes.
Win.


2nd round, Dan "The King of Bad Luck" with Show and Tell
He accidentally shown a card during shuffling, and of all fetches/blue cards possible, it was his namesake card. Then he rolled snake eyes. Then he mulled to six...
g1: I had nothing but small Mongoose and 3/4 Goyf, but it was enough, as Dan was stuck on two lands for far too long. Then he finally tried to win. He played S&T, I Dazed, he FoWed, I Pierced, he Fowed, I FoWed.
sb: out removal, in REBs, Flus, Grudge, KGrip, Vend Clique
g2: I Dazed his BS, but he had the second land. My Delver flipped on the first try. He was once again stuck with nothing and even discarded in EOT. I got Goose. I think I also Grudged Grid, but I'm not sure. On his 5 life he tried to EOT Intuition which I Dazed, he FoWed, I Dazed, he Fowed, I Pyroed, ending my turn without his Intu resolving and with Stifle and REB in my hand.
Win.
Note: He took out Dream Halls for Leylines to be save of my Bolts... and he also sbed Extraction to fight FoW.


3rd round, Tom, UBG_DRS.dec
I thought he plays ANT
g1: I played 2x Delver, he killed them.Then I got Mon and Goyf which decayed, he tried Lili which I FoWed. I gotDelver, he got DRS but was on four life when I hit him with Bolt or whatever.
sb: out Dazes, Dismember, some crap, in "Submerges, Rough/Tumble, Needle, maybe Flus to fight Hymn" and Clique.
g2: I got Mongoose, Goyf, Clique (which sent down Decay, but was eaten by revelaed Disfigure), Delver and Goyf. He, otoh, got three Lilis. But this wasn't enough an after lots of drama I won. There was decision to be done if I should sac Goose or not, as Goyf was 5/6 and thus much faster (yet fragile), and with all the Goyfs and stuff in my hand, I decided to do it like this. Risky, but it payed for me.
Win.


4th round, Christian with a borrowed UR SenseiSensei
g1: I played Delver, than two Delvers, then flipped them with Dismember (of all the possible things) and lacked a FoW fodder / Stifle when Chris played his topdecked EE. Few trns later he won with 2x SDt, Helm and Grapeshot.
sb: out removal, in REBs, Flus, anti-arti, Crypt, Needle, Clique
g2: Very drawn out game, or "how to lose the game and draw a match in gorillion unnecessary steps". On his turn4 Chris BSed which I Dazed, he fetched, I Stifled, he fetched, I Stifled, he fetched, BS resolved with him on two basics. I built my pool. On four lands I played Clique, moving something away. (Chris' hand was AK, AK, EE, GRS, BS, REB, so I think I got away REB/EE.) He Grapeshot Clique with some storm, I didn't realize I need to Pyroblast one copy and then after play Flusterstorm, so in the end there was not enough Flus copies and I lost Clique. At least I got Needle on Top. He drawn in resp to spell, then he played Meekstone and Top, instead of the EE@1, thus effectivelly losing the game although he ws able to play all four copies of Accumulated Knowledge without me interacting in any way.
He Also got out CB, but I got rid of it with well timed Blast. (Mabye. Maybe not, I can't tell now. Afterall, he finished with some CB in play.) Then I put Goyf onto the battlefield, but he Trinket->Meekstone. I waited all the eternity to draw something and I even had to overextend into possible EE (Otoh EE would kill two Helms) as I feared I'd have just one try with my Goyfs once I got away the Stone. At the end I had Goose and doublele Goyf out when I drawn KGRrip. I played something to check CB, he didn't use it. I played Goyf, resolved. I attacked with my dudes into two Trinket Mages, dealing three mongoose dmg. He played something in his turn, then I Gripped Meekstone EOT and won with a massive attack for which I forgot to stand up from my chair.
g3: I was all thrilled and happy I got this win so I played g3 just for survival. Instead of taking Bolts in, I kept the anti-combo setting and thus was unable to deal enough damage in the few turns we played of the g3.
Draw.


I finished second with 10 points just as Chris, but he had better score. No matter what, the shopkeeper thus split the prize. I don't know what Chris won, but for my efforts I rode away with four packs of Perfect Fits and one canned beer.
I also sold some stuff (e.g. Karakas to name few) and got some Chinese cards for Thrseh and Sac Land Tendrils.I'm fien with the evening.

MVP: Delver. Also Needle is a tech.
I'm thinking about adding Plaxmanta as I'm totally fed up with Decays, but ppl, this card is sooo horrible. Also, I never played not a single Dismember today and I think I'll cut it for the second Forked Bolt or maybe for Fire/Ice. Both cards are awful, but at least they burn, although not very; also F/I pitches to the Fury of the Horde.

[Mr. Crane]

why out dismember against Bug and Jund?

About surgical plain discussion, normally im use extraction versus opps extractions, i dont like extraction plan but if my opp use i need to use as a hedge

[Bed Decks Palyer]

why out dismember against Bug and Jund?

About surgical plain discussion, normally im use extraction versus opps extractions, i dont like extraction plan but if my opp use i need to use as a hedge

Because I take Submerges and Rough/Tumble which are clearly better than Dismember in 90 % of cases. Also Dismember hurts. When you're hit by a Bolt or two, then DRS/Grim deals some damage, you don't want to play such nasty removal most of the time.
I even thought about cutting it completely, but then I realized it's the only removal I may play from a Waste/Trop, which is sometimes important.

[rockout]

MVP: Delver. Also Needle is a tech.
I'm thinking about adding Plaxmanta as I'm totally fed up with Decays, but ppl, this card is sooo horrible. Also, I never played not a single Dismember today and I think I'll cut it for the second Forked Bolt or maybe for Fire/Ice. Both cards are awful, but at least they burn, although not very; also F/I pitches to the Fury of the Horde.

Instead of running a terrible card like plaxmanta why not just run divert. You can change their target of an abrupt decay to one of their own dudes and just take them to value town.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Instead of running a terrible card like plaxmanta why not just run divert. You can change their target of an abrupt decay to one of their own dudes and just take them to value town.

Because Divert I tried and it's awful. Awful.
Once upon a time I diverted a Hymn and that's about it. Other than that, I don't remember that it ever done anything for me. Oh, and Thoughtseize. That was funny. But nothing else.

So I'm trying to find something unconditional. If they can pay for the Divert (via DRS and such), it's a blank card. Thus you need to draw Divert while it's still good (read: early game), because on turn8 I'd rather draw Flare than Divert. But will you play two or three of them to be sure you draw them early enough? I wish to use one sb slot for the anti-Decay tech. Two slots at the most.
Plaxmanta works no matter how many untapped lands they have available, and it also swings for two, so it might be a better topdeck. And yes, these matches tend to move to topdeck mode.

Hm. I think I've found a better solution! As both Plaxmanta and Divert are horrible, I may play a split... of another cards, of good cards. And simply take no care of Decay.

Or is Swerve an option?

[apistat_commander]

Because Divert I tried and it's awful. Awful.
Once upon a time I diverted a Hymn and that's about it. Other than that, I don't remember that it ever done anything for me. Oh, and Thoughtseize. That was funny. But nothing else.

So I'm trying to find something unconditional. If they can pay for the Divert (via DRS and such), it's a blank card. Thus you need to draw Divert while it's still good (read: early game), because on turn8 I'd rather draw Flare than Divert. But will you play two or three of them to be sure you draw them early enough? I wish to use one sb slot for the anti-Decay tech. Two slots at the most.
Plaxmanta works no matter how many untapped lands they have available, and it also swings for two, so it might be a better topdeck. And yes, these matches tend to move to topdeck mode.

Hm. I think I've found a better solution! As both Plaxmanta and Divert are horrible, I may play a split... of another cards, of good cards. And simply take no care of Decay.

Or is Swerve an option?

Delver and Goyf have always been vulnerable threats, hence 4x Mongoose. Abrupt Decay is uncounterable, but I don't think it introduces a novel problem. You are focusing on a single card and ignoring the context the card is in. You don't want to beat Abrupt Decay, you want to beat Jund or Shardless BUG (or even broader deck types). One of the reasons that RUG is so powerful is the flexibility of our spells. Cards like Divert and Plaxmanta are narrow and really only shine in "Gotcha!" situations. This is similar to boarding in Surgical Extraction against RUG. Yes, it can win you the game to cut RUG off a color but unless you are able to achieve that particular set of circumstances (dual in the yard, no fetch on the field, no countermagic/Stifle from the other player) it is basically doing nothing against their deck. I would much rather having something generic like Spell Pierce or Pithing Needle which work against a variety of decks. While they may not overpower the opponent by themselves, applying them at the right time and in the right way will win you matches.

[Megadeus]

Meh wasting then.surgicaling trops if.you.dont have a green dude on board is basically GG. I'm willing.to board it as a one of vs RuG

[Bed Decks Palyer]

@ apistat_commander: How come Decay isn't a novel problem? :cry: For the most part of my life of a Thresh pilot I was used to counter anything that threatened my dudes, then tapped them for the win. Decay changed it, and the fact that it kills two out of three of our creatures (and if included as a four-of, then it stops 1/3 of our wincons) while we may just stare is a novel problem and an annoying one. Decay completely changed how the deck works as you threats are vulnerable like never before.

@ Megadeus: As a one card in your 60 it is unreliable.

[Megadeus]

@ apistat_commander: How come Decay isn't a novel problem? :cry: For the most part of my life of a Thresh pilot I was used to counter anything that threatened my dudes, then tapped them for the win. Decay changed it, and the fact that it kills two out of three of our creatures (and if included as a four-of, then it stops 1/3 of our wincons) while we may just stare is a novel problem and an annoying one. Decay completely changed how the deck works as you threats are vulnerable like never before.

@ Megadeus: As a one card in your 60 it is unreliable.

I'm not banking on it, but if I can steal a free win I'll take it. It's a one of, so you don't rely on it, but if it happens? GG.

[Barbed Blightning]

Delver and Goyf have always been vulnerable threats, hence 4x Mongoose. Abrupt Decay is uncounterable, but I don't think it introduces a novel problem. You are focusing on a single card and ignoring the context the card is in. You don't want to beat Abrupt Decay, you want to beat Jund or Shardless BUG (or even broader deck types). One of the reasons that RUG is so powerful is the flexibility of our spells. Cards like Divert and Plaxmanta are narrow and really only shine in "Gotcha!" situations. This is similar to boarding in Surgical Extraction against RUG. Yes, it can win you the game to cut RUG off a color but unless you are able to achieve that particular set of circumstances (dual in the yard, no fetch on the field, no countermagic/Stifle from the other player) it is basically doing nothing against their deck. I would much rather having something generic like Spell Pierce or Pithing Needle which work against a variety of decks. While they may not overpower the opponent by themselves, applying them at the right time and in the right way will win you matches.

Amen to that. QFT

[apistat_commander]

@ apistat_commander: How come Decay isn't a novel problem? :cry: For the most part of my life of a Thresh pilot I was used to counter anything that threatened my dudes, then tapped them for the win. Decay changed it, and the fact that it kills two out of three of our creatures (and if included as a four-of, then it stops 1/3 of our wincons) while we may just stare is a novel problem and an annoying one. Decay completely changed how the deck works as you threats are vulnerable like never before.

In my experience with the deck, it has never been that difficult to overload RUG's countermagic with removal. You don't always have a counter for that StP or Bolt, or sometimes it just isn't worth Forcing. It is one of the weaknesses of the deck. Yes, Decay is an unpleasant reality but I don't think it warrants running something terrible like Divert or Plaxmanta. If the problem is not having enough threats, look at ways to increase threat density such as Sylvan Library or Green Sun's Zenith. You are better off running a card that always does something in place of a card that might address the problem under a specific set of circumstances.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

In my experience with the deck, it has never been that difficult to overload RUG's countermagic with removal.
Maybe with Pox. But in my experience it never was too difficult to keep them of mana and then counter one random Swords to Plows.



You don't always have a counter for that StP or Bolt, or sometimes it just isn't worth Forcing...
...while other times you have a counter for that StP or Bolt, or sometimes it just is worth Forcing. Except that with Decay this really doesn't matter, cause they just fire and forget the card and it hits our Goyf.



It is one of the weaknesses of the deck. Yes, Decay is an unpleasant reality but I don't think it warrants running something terrible like Divert or Plaxmanta. If the problem is not having enough threats, look at ways to increase threat density such as Sylvan Library or Green Sun's Zenith. You are better off running a card that always does something in place of a card that might address the problem under a specific set of circumstances.
So instead of terrible Divert I should try terrible GSZ?
I played Library and was mostly dissapointed with it. I may try it again, but I fail to see how exactly it helps when they're killing my Goyf. I know what you mean, the ability to find threats and even go berserk with card draw is fine, but we're the one-land durdle durdle owl deck and cutting live cards for cards that search for live cards seem very counterintuitive to me.
The only thing I'm willing to cut (esp. after today's four-rounder) is Dismember, as I'm fairly dissapointed with the card. (I'm definitely sure I'll meet hordes of Goyfs once I'll do it.)

You have your eighteen lands (argh, if only you'd know how I hate this deck manabase, it's so painful when you mull to nothingness due to the all-Waste hands) and there'S nothing to cut.
You have the twelve creatures, Delver as the most aggressive one that MtG offers, Mongoose as the most resilient and finally Goyf as the most effective creature. There' nothing to cut and I'm not sure if there's any thing to add, except maybe for Clique/Ooze/Pyromancer.
You need your eight cantrips to make the deck work. And you will always play four Bolts
The rest isn't set in stone, but I still think that the maindeck is pretty tight. Will you cut Forked Bolt and add Library? But Library does completely nothing on turns 1-2 and that's when you need to kill DRS/MoR. Will you cut one Pierce? I'm not sure if I like the idea, because Pierce is crucial to stop the fast Drit-Crit-AdN, Hymn, Liliana, Terminus, Counterbalance, while again, Library does nothing in early turns.


Understand me: I'm not arguing against power Library and in fact I believe it's pretty powerful card. Just it doesn't seem to belong into RUG, moreover I was making a fairly clear point about the trouble with Decay and adding a Library answers this trouble in a way I'm not looking for. I want a straightforward solution, not durdle with Library.
Plaxmanta, as terrible as it is, has immediate effect. Moreover it attacks for two and might be sacced to Lili.

Maybe the best way how to solve Decay is to overload on creatures and add one to three of them and cut crappy cards like Dismember...

EDIT: I thought about Eyes of the Wisent, not as an answer to Decay, but rather a way how to generate creatures that(unlike Pyromancer) doesn't die to Bolt and it's tokens (unlike Pyromacer's) also survive it. Otoh, relying on the opponents' ability and willingness to play blue spells on our turns is bad even in terms of Legacy where EOT BS is usual play...

[Barbed Blightning]

Maybe with Pox. But in my experience it never was too difficult to keep them of mana and then counter one random Swords to Plows.

...while other times you have a counter for that StP or Bolt, or sometimes it just is worth Forcing. Except that with Decay this really doesn't matter, cause they just fire and forget the card and it hits our Goyf.

So instead of terrible Divert I should try terrible GSZ?
I played Library and was mostly dissapointed with it. I may try it again, but I fail to see how exactly it helps when they're killing my Goyf. I know what you mean, the ability to find threats and even go berserk with card draw is fine, but we're the one-land durdle durdle owl deck and cutting live cards for cards that search for live cards seem very counterintuitive to me.
The only thing I'm willing to cut (esp. after today's four-rounder) is Dismember, as I'm fairly dissapointed with the card. (I'm definitely sure I'll meet hordes of Goyfs once I'll do it.)

You have your eighteen lands (argh, if only you'd know how I hate this deck manabase, it's so painful when you mull to nothingness due to the all-Waste hands) and there'S nothing to cut.
You have the twelve creatures, Delver as the most aggressive one that MtG offers, Mongoose as the most resilient and finally Goyf as the most effective creature. There' nothing to cut and I'm not sure if there's any thing to add, except maybe for Clique/Ooze/Pyromancer.
You need your eight cantrips to make the deck work. And you will always play four Bolts
The rest isn't set in stone, but I still think that the maindeck is pretty tight. Will you cut Forked Bolt and add Library? But Library does completely nothing on turns 1-2 and that's when you need to kill DRS/MoR. Will you cut one Pierce? I'm not sure if I like the idea, because Pierce is crucial to stop the fast Drit-Crit-AdN, Hymn, Liliana, Terminus, Counterbalance, while again, Library does nothing in early turns.

Understand me: I'm not arguing against power Library and in fact I believe it's pretty powerful card. Just it doesn't seem to belong into RUG, moreover I was making a fairly clear point about the trouble with Decay and adding a Library answers this trouble in a way I'm not looking for. I want a straightforward solution, not durdle with Library.
Plaxmanta, as terrible as it is, has immediate effect. Moreover it attacks for two and might be sacced to Lili.

Maybe the best way how to solve Decay is to overload on creatures and add one to three of them and cut crappy cards like Dismember...

EDIT: I thought about Eyes of the Wisent, not as an answer to Decay, but rather a way how to generate creatures that(unlike Pyromancer) doesn't die to Bolt and it's tokens (unlike Pyromacer's) also survive it. Otoh, relying on the opponents' ability and willingness to play blue spells on our turns is bad even in terms of Legacy where EOT BS is usual play...

What about a single snapcaster or simic charm? Just spitballing

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Snapcaster Mage was played by some people and I never heard anything good about the card. We don't play enough lands to support him. Simic Charm, on the other hand... I think I'll test it!

[poxy14]

What about a single snapcaster or simic charm? Just spitballing

has anyone tested hidden gibbons vs decay decks?
ive tested diverts and i cant draw them when i needed them..
will be trying a single snap tomorrow...currrently running on 3goyfs, 4geese, 4 delvers..

[notap123]

Snapcaster Mage was played by some people and I never heard anything good about the card. We don't play enough lands to support him. Simic Charm, on the other hand... I think I'll test it!

If you like Simic Charm as a route try Vines of the Vastwood seems like it would curve better with the deck.

On the subject of Abrupt Decay how much play testing has there been on Repeal or Curfew/Chain of Vapor? Repeal is extremely versatile (potentially cheap on bouncing delver and nabs a draw) where as Curfew/Chain are efficient (manawise).

I personally like the idea of curfew especially when you can nab hexproof on their side while protecting your beaters.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

has anyone tested hidden gibbons vs decay decks?
ive tested diverts and i cant draw them when i needed them..
will be trying a single snap tomorrow...currrently running on 3goyfs, 4geese, 4 delvers..

You defined my trouble with Divert very precisely! :smile:
I already bought Gibbons. But never tried them. (Same for the Eyes of the Wisent.)



If you like Simic Charm as a route try Vines of the Vastwood seems like it would curve better with the deck.

On the subject of Abrupt Decay how much play testing has there been on Repeal or Curfew/Chain of Vapor? Repeal is extremely versatile (potentially cheap on bouncing delver and nabs a draw) where as Curfew/Chain are efficient (manawise).

I personally like the idea of curfew especially when you can nab hexproof on their side while protecting your beaters.
Curfew has the added bonus of removing Emrakul/Tombstalker (under correct circumstances).
I still wish there'd be something better than these cards (thouhg Repeal is nice). We already play Submerge for emergency save of Goyfs (although it's -2 CA), so I'm not sure if another boomerang is reasonable. I'd like something more effective. I'd even think about Misdirection, but it has some of the troubles of Divert (e.g. you need a second target for Decay, and sometimes, esp. when our plan is extremely well working - read: bolt their DRS, blast their Delver, snare their Library, fetch-merge their Goyf and pierce their Liliana - you may find yourself unable to redirect the spell) and also brings card disadvantage.
I'd stay away from Curfew, as Emrakuls don't see much play and in any other matchup they'll just return the less annoying creature (read: BB Elf) and try to incorporate Repeal into board. Sadly, I don't see any empty slot, except for maybe one of the Submerges, which dissapointed me yesterday. (But ok, it was me badly siding...)

____________________________

Sylvan Library.

I want to add a little bit on the Library topic, but before I procceed, I really wish to make it clear that I like the card and feel it's a powerhouse. The reasons why I don't use it in Thresh are these:

First of all, I think that there's a finite number of cantrips/filter spells in any deck. Yes, I know of decks like 16cantrips storm, etc. but these are extremities, also their game plan completely differs and lastly, their cantrips work as a pseudoBolts. But still no one in his clear mind would play 59_cantrips.dec, you really need something to win with.
This brings us to the Library. We already play enough filtering and are arguably the most stable deck of the whole format, Waste-mulls not counting; definitely we're the most consistent. (Altjhough I liked the pre-Misstep, pre-Delver lists - made completely of playsets - the most.) So when it comes to filtering (lets set aside Library's card draw for a while), we're already fine (esp. head-drill/Probe versions of the deck), and the last thing we need is a card filter as slow as Library (it won't work sooner than turn 3, but more realistically turn 4 or later - Daze setbacks, Wastelands, urge to keep open mana for Pierce/Stifle), namely when our deck's "four-ofs only" structure doesn't need much twiddling above the eight already presented fillers to let us find the exact necessary card. We don't play a deck where you need to find a three-cards combo or search for a one-of in sixty cards or don't play cantrips (imagine IDK deck like Aluren, Maverick, you name it), every card we draw is live - at least most of the times.
Also, Sylvan Library is especially powerful in decks designed to misuse it (lots of silver bullets and filtering, multiple instances of lifelink, whatever) and then again in decks that are meant to play (and win in) the long game, as this power is incrased with every draw step, with every fetchland. Thresh is not designed for grindy games (althought it may win them, of course) and 95% of time we're the beatdown. Guess what this tells about Library... After all, we're The Tempo Deck of Choice.
Card draw is not irrelevant, though, but Sylvan Library is not Necropotence and every card hurts, so the draw should be used only when really needed/safe. (I know that all the fetchland-thinning junkies that are willing to Ad Nauseam into Emrakul beacuse "card advantitch matterz dude" will differ, but lets pretend that this site is visited by reasonable gentlemen only.) Again, this comes down to the fact that there are other card advantage possibilities (though maybe not that easily incorporated as Library and/or not that powerful as one-of), but if I'd really go for raw card draw, I'd slam in three Ancestrals and be done with it. (Which is still an option instead of the three randoms - after all, we don't win sooner than turn 5 and the usual "pitch to FoW" reasoning also counts.)
Also, Library can't neither attack nor block.

________________________________

Long edit:

Played Thresh with a very unsatisfying result yesterday. The whole thing was a major dissapointment since the very moment I left the job and realized I'm out of fuel and don't have time to ride to my favourite cheap gas station.
As few times before: I wanted to play something bad, preferably Terrageddon before I'll sell my Savannahs, but on the evening prior to tournament I was lazy to sleeve it. Also, I still miss third japanese (or second and third chinese) Mystic Enforcer to complete the deck and I don't feel like I wish to play many of the english ones I got, esp. the TSP ones.
I used the above deck, I didn't change anything in it. Tournament was visited by whopping number of eight players; this should be enough of a warning for me, but I registered anyway.


Round 1, Dominique who's called Nicolas for some reason (or vice versa) with ANT
He borrowed the deck five minutes before registration's end and was learned how to play IT+LED, 2xDrit+AdN and told to not fear anything.
g1: I mulled a Waste-only, Dominiqolas started. He offered Duress twice, taking Snare and Stifle. I played Goyf and on his nine life he played some cards and then LED, LED, Crit which I countered with BSed Daze (sadly this BS learned me that I won't have any blue card in the next two tops, which was quite a letdown to say the least - also, though my Dismeber is oriental, I nearly vomit when I draw it in the said BS).
To this failed CRit he conceded in response. I was so shocked that I sighed, so now he responded to my "you're kidding me?" with "oh, I see I am supposed to try it again on next turn and hope you don't draw anything to improve your nigh completely non-blue hand to stop my IT". So on his next turn he played IT, quite incorrectly timed the LEDs sacrifice only after IT resolved, but as he went for PiF it didn't matter and to my great chagrin, the first game resulted in my loss with me sitting on a FoW with no fodder for it.
sb: I took out removal except for Bolt or two, some Mongooses as they are slow, added Blasts, Flusterstorm, grave hosers and Clique.
g2: We exchanged some discard and counterspell, then I played Delver a turn too soon which left me without means to interact. Luckily he was unable to go for the throat, but I didn't learned from my mistake and instead of building mana after I flipped Delver, I wasted his USea, thus leaving me with two lands open against his one land. Much to my great regret, Dominiquegolas went for it on the next turn with land, two Petals, LED and CRit. I BSed and Pierced CRit (should have played just the Pierce from hand, but I wished to have perfect information - and a possible FoW - before I'll decide what to do, so I BSed first). This left me completely tapped and he just sacced the LPs to pay for the Pierce, CRit resolved, then several ITs later (sadly he found this line, I hoped he loses to AdN) his ToA resolved with me sitting duck. Needles to say, I held two Stifles and as he used the IT chain, he hadn't had any way how to Duress me of them...
Very dissapointing.


Round 2, Peter, UBWg DRS
g1: I sat on Stifle for turns of which he had not known, but guessed because of my non-activity. In the meanwhile I Dazed lots of his stuff that he thrown against me - only thanks to the threat of Stifle. I sticked Mongoose, then finally got rid of Stifle when I pitched it to counter Jitte. He flashbakced Souls and chumped or what, then I Dismembered the 2nd token. Delver ate Swords, DRS joined the party, Lili entered the arena and I then conceded when my situation was unsustainable. It was a bad surprise and quite an anticlimax when I post-game found two Bolts on the top ready to burn both elf and the PW. So I conceded while still having a chance.
sb: out Some mix of this and that, some FoWs, Dismember, IDK what else; in came Rough/Tumble and Sulfur dude, also Clique to overload his removal, Needle, imho I forgot about Cage, I also took artifact removal, of course, and two Submerges.
g2: This game was pretty fast. Deck done what it had to do. Unuckily I didn't realize he play just a sole Trop for some reason, and I didn't took out the Submerges for the 3rd game. This had to become a source of my major dissapointment in g3.
sb: He used cards from sb as Souls tokens. Seen Confidant amongst them, I took out Rough.
g3: Basically this was all about my brainfart and the fact I didn't realize that a "Volc, Waste, no cantrip" hand won't get anywhere. At least I Needled DRS, but then my only threat was Blasted (guess which one) and my breach continued as the flow of my green lands never burst out. After some time he had two DRS, a Snappy, some 1/x dude (SFM?) and some 2/x guy which I thnk was Confidant. (So he either takes out Confidants when on draw, or maybe he just took out one and "inadvertently" showed me him as a Souls token in g2 to misinform me.) Much to my great sadness and frustration I was still unable to draw Trop, and I was also pissed that I took out Rough. Morevoer, he knew of my two Submerges I sbed against Goyfs (of which he played zero), so he didn't play his Trop/Bayou.
Time was called with me having nothing but lands in play. I was down to 14 life and he had 7 power on table. To my great dissapointment his Confidant didn't show Emrakul, unluckly my BS didn'T show any Bolt, so I ignominiously lost in two attacks.

I dropped after this match.

Then I moved on to the guy that was previously thrilled with my Depths I took to repurchase. He offered me a whopping 25 cents above the repurchase price to which I responded in not really polite way as I definitely wasn't in a mood for this and took the offer like an offense. I moved to the desk and to my really great dissapointment we've realized that of the four Depths (all bought from shop, btw), one is on the threshold of played and the other has "corrected" border with a marker so it's definitely unsellable. At leat I got rid of the other three... (And then a pale bought BB Demonic Tutor.)

Woeful evening. I would call it dissapointment; mild dissapointment at least.


There are very few things to learn from this, but if there're any, I think it'll be those:
1) The ANT loss. Deck is so powerful and our permission light (though numerous), that even illiterate opponent may win. Also:always evaluate game state! I could have lost when I tapped for the DElver (following the premise "thou shall present clock") isntead of building base and sculpting hand. The second game was definitely lost due to my bad work with cantrips and mainly because I wasted opponent in incorrect moment.
2) The sb mistakes, mainly the Submerges in that were unplayable, but also the Rough/Tumble nonsense. I should have kept it in, after all it's nice to two-for-one the opponent.
3) The completely unreasonable keep in R2g3.

Totally unsatisfactory and I think I'll shelve the deck for a while.

[thecrav]

Snapcaster Mage was played by some people and I never heard anything good about the card. We don't play enough lands to support him. Simic Charm, on the other hand... I think I'll test it!

My biggest concern about Snapcaster would be that he makes the deck even more susceptible to graveyard hate. He also has some slight anti-synergy with both Goyf and Mongoose, what with the whole shrinking your GY thing.

[---0_0---]

Hey guys what do you think of Ghost Quarter as a sideboard card? It could come in versus decks without basics obv like other tempo decks and deathblade. To low impact perhaps?

[Barbed Blightning]

Hey guys what do you think of Ghost Quarter as a sideboard card? It could come in versus decks without basics obv like other tempo decks and deathblade. To low impact perhaps?

Lands used it against me back when I was playing jund to great effect.... but they had crucible/ exploration.

I like loam better, honestly. I know grinding is usually not what we want to be doing but its offensive and defensive uses make it a solid one-of, imo

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Hey guys what do you think of Ghost Quarter as a sideboard card? It could come in versus decks without basics obv like other tempo decks and deathblade. To low impact perhaps?
I don't think you'll need it, also it eats precious slots. It's good in Lands, because you want to completely lock them out of lands, but this ain't RUGs main plan, you just slow their development and in the mean time beat with creatures.

[Water_Wizard]

Long time ago people talked about Plaxmanta as an answer to Abrupt Decay.

Probably has the same problems as Divert, Simic Charm, and Vines of Vastwood in that it is too conditional and too mana-intensive, but it does give a flash body that is a 2/2.

[Vandalize]

It's funny the way Canadian Threshold hasn't changed much since Innistrad (Sep 2011), and it's still putting up wonderful results. 2 years rocking Legacy for the lulz.

For those playing Gitaxian Probe maindeck, how many do you play? 2 seems right to me, but I really miss my 6th burn slot, be it Chain Lightning, Dismember or Forked Bolt #2.

[Barbed Blightning]

It's funny the way Canadian Threshold hasn't changed much since Innistrad (Sep 2011), and it's still putting up wonderful results. 2 years rocking Legacy for the lulz.

For those playing Gitaxian Probe maindeck, how many do you play? 2 seems right to me, but I really miss my 6th burn slot, be it Chain Lightning, Dismember or Forked Bolt #2.

I wish I could upvote. T1 delver ftw!

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Yes, this is incredible. I remeber when a friend of mine seen me buying the set of Delvers and he smiled "ain't that nice to improve the deck for one dollar?" Delver is lovely card, though overpowered, no questions about it; also the transform mechanic stinks, but well, one can't have everything.

[Tombstalker]

Ive seen the bURG lists floating around for DRS but they seem a little too greedy. otoh has anyone tried out something a little less intensive like 1 underground sea for 2 abrupt decay as removal 5-6?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Ive seen the bURG lists floating around for DRS but they seem a little too greedy. otoh has anyone tried out something a little less intensive like 1 underground sea for 2 abrupt decay as removal 5-6?
I'd be hesitant to cut fetch (not to mention dual) for such a little gain as the two Decays. You need both red and green land to cast your stuff and now you'd add a black dual? Moreover just because of two spells that need another dual to cast? I don't think it's worthy an inclusion, because you'd go fetch-Volc for Bolts, fetch-Trop for creatures, fetch-Sea for Decay and then every Waste leaves you without red/green for your most important spells, while you'll sit on Sea and hope to draw the one remaining card that matters.

[wcm8]

Ive seen the bURG lists floating around for DRS but they seem a little too greedy. otoh has anyone tried out something a little less intensive like 1 underground sea for 2 abrupt decay as removal 5-6?

Running DRS is actually less greedy because it fixes mana. I don't think splashing black for *only* Decay is worthwhile. DRS provides a trump in various matchups, as well as providing additional reach to make up for the lower amount of burn.

Green/Blue is the primary color of both RUG and BURG, so you're typically fetching up a Tropical as your first dual. The red and black are really just there for removal and sideboard options. With the BURG list I've been playing I've rarely felt that mana was a problem.

[Tombstalker]

Ah that makes sense. Haven't sleeved up TT in awhile and I was just thinking of abrupt decay not the deck as a whole. So on that note do traditional TT players feel bURG is the way forward? Is the splash even needed?

[Watoo24]

The splash isn't worth cutting goyf, or goose for. I tested it, and deathrite's mana ability isn't particularly relevant if you play the deck properly. His other abilities make him reasonable, but goose suffers heavily from his inclusion. Abrupt decay while quite good, didn't add anything more to the deck. We already had answers to those cards. The mana also felt much much worse.

[wcm8]

The splash isn't worth cutting goyf, or goose for. I tested it, and deathrite's mana ability isn't particularly relevant if you play the deck properly. His other abilities make him reasonable, but goose suffers heavily from his inclusion. Abrupt decay while quite good, didn't add anything more to the deck. We already had answers to those cards. The mana also felt much much worse.

The typical creature configuration for the BURG lists is: 4/4/3/2 delver, goose, shaman, goyf. So you don't cut either creature. Some lists still retain all 4 Goyf. The tension between Goose and Shaman is also being overestimated; rarely do the two interfere.

I'm not going to argue that BURG is strictly better than straight RUG, but it does offer some tactical advantages and the usefulness of DRS is undeniable. The mana ability is particularly relevant in tempo mirrors, where being able to play around Daze/Wasteland and/or play more spells per turn is incredibly relevant. It also has 'evasion' to break through a Goyf ground stall.

Decay can also get you out of of some tight spots you would otherwise lose to (e.g. Counterbalance, resolved KotR or Goyf, graveyard recursion, etc.), especially in game 1 before you bring in answers from the SB.

I view BURG as a bridge between Canadian and Team America, not necessarily as strictly better (or worse) than either of the two decks. Which flavor of tempo is best is largely going to depend on what sort of decks you end up facing.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Basically the RUG/BURG dilemma also depends on your meta. If there are decks that fall to DRS it gets different from situation when you find your shaman bolted to death every turn1.

So, I'd like to bring a question: with the rise of artifacts (namely equipments/Vial, but also random Tezz's stuff) and sb-ed enchantments (like RiP), and with the boards more and more clogged with Goyfs/Lilianas/anything, I started to tinker with an idea to reintroduce a good old creature we played: Trygon Predator.
It's hardly maindeckable, but I think that the card definitely warrants a sb slot.

[trollking21]

Instead of trygon predator why not more ancient grudge? It hits two turns sooner can't be blocked, and flashback make canceling it much less effective.
Even for enchantments it seems underwhelming. It costs three mana and takes a full turn to do anything. I'd rather spell pierce, spell snare, force, or daze it before boarding trygon predator. But perhaps more experienced pilots think differently

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Instead of trygon predator why not more ancient grudge? It hits two turns sooner can't be blocked, and flashback make canceling it much less effective.
Even for enchantments it seems underwhelming. It costs three mana and takes a full turn to do anything. I'd rather spell pierce, spell snare, force, or daze it before boarding trygon predator. But perhaps more experienced pilots think differently

Not instead of Grudge, but next to it.
Pierce, snare, etc. don't have 2/3 flying body.

[trollking21]

I don't particularly like a body next to my answer cards. If rest in peace is killing me I don't want to have to wait a turn to deal with especially after playing 3 mana and having to most likely tap out for it. That's a little bit of personal prefrence perhaps though. I've only played rug for about 3 months

[Barbed Blightning]

I don't particularly like a body next to my answer cards. If rest in peace is killing me I don't want to have to wait a turn to deal with especially after playing 3 mana and having to most likely tap out for it. That's a little bit of personal prefrence perhaps though. I've only played rug for about 3 months

Nah it's basically the truth. Even sulfur elemental, a threat/answer with a lot of perks is still less preferable than Dread of Night--its just that we can actually cast sulfur.

Canadian is a straightforward deck: creatures beat, cantrips dig, everything else is an answer

[KobeBryan]

what is the matchup analysis against merfolk?

I would think RUG has an advantage with so many cheap removals and REB

[Vandalize]

what is the matchup analysis against merfolk?

I would think RUG has an advantage with so many cheap removals and REB

Pretty much counter AEther Vial, Bolt their first lord and resolve Goyf. G1 is maybe 55/45 for them. Postboard gets easier with REB.

[Mr. Crane]

im thinking about price of progress in metagame with much blades and shardless, the normal plans don´t like me very much =/

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Pretty much counter AEther Vial, Bolt their first lord and resolve Goyf. G1 is maybe 55/45 for them. Postboard gets easier with REB.
They bring Submerge.
Vandalize, how do you sideboard against Folks?

[cheerios]

I'm not Vandalize but for the Merfolk matchup, I recommend siding in REBs, rough tumbles and 1 grudge just in case they land jitte. An online jitte can be troublesome in the long run.

[Vandalize]

They bring Submerge.
Vandalize, how do you sideboard against Folks?

With a list like this:
18 Lands
4 Goyf
4 Goose
4 Delver
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Bolt
3 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
2 Forked Bolt
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Rough/Tumble
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Krosan Grip

On the draw: -1 Daze -1 Spell Pierce -4 Stifle +3 Pyroblast +1 Ancient Grudge +2 Rough/Tumble
On the play: -4 Stifle -1 Ponder +3 Pyroblast +2 Rough/Tumble

Stifle is pretty bad against folks, it can only protect your lands vs Wasteland, and maybe counter a Vial activation (which might gain some tempo). Spell Pierce is also awful, but on the play you can counter their first AEther Vial.

But, actually this matchup is about resolving Goyf and killing lords.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I tend to keep Stifles in, as I lost some games when they wasted my sole colored land and kicked me out of game. Do you have some special plan against this, or do you just sit on fetches for as long as possible?

[Barbed Blightning]

For those running Zuran Orb: why? Burn matchup obviously but is there some other reason?

[Mr. Crane]

im like this: + 3 blast + 2 rough + 1 grudge - - 2 Fow - 4 Stifle , if opp dont have vial in play daze is very good.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

im like this: + 3 blast + 2 rough + 1 grudge - - 2 Fow - 4 Stifle , if opp dont have vial in play daze is very good.
One more thing I remembered - Stifle is pretty good against Relic, though you may use Needle in Stifle's place, of course.
On Zuran Orb: Imho ppl packing Zorb simply decided they will not lose against cheap deck. If your meta is burn-heavy, this card ain't bad, it comes down pretty fast (unless your cantrips suck) and might be used in response to PoP/Vortex and simply keep you in game for long enough to ride the Goyfs home. Personally I don't play it, as I dislike how narrow it is, but next time I'll lose to burn like I did recently, I may find a place for one bonsai.


I played a nigh-singletons-only sb for a while to see what works for me and what does not. I came to a conclusion that there are several cards I really love and I consider up their numbers.

1) Pithing Needle. Solves several annoying cards like DRS and Liliana, morevoer shuts down any number of them. Has applications also in other matchups like randomly cutting off Ceph. Colliseum or whatever.
2) I can't decide on correct number/split of Rough//Tumble and Sulfur Elemental. I like the utility and split second of the latter, but it does very little agaist Dark Confidant decks where Rough shines instead. It's brilliant against Gobos, too, whih isn't exactly the best matchup.
3) Submerge as three of. There are times when I wish to cut it and use something more bomby like Mind Harness, Gilded Drake or even Threads of Disl., but then again I see how the instant nature and the zero manacost screams "TEMPO!" Also, it's the only way how to reliably save Goyfs from Decays, so...
4) Red Blast / Flusterstorm. These fight for the same slot, unfortunately they don't work the same, as REBs may act like a removal, while Flusterstom has the pro of been much better against not only combo, but also against fetch-Stifle in mirror. Also, Pyroblasting one in a million of Storm's cantrips might be weak, otoh, they'll discard your Flus before they combo out, so slowing their development (by blasting their cantrips) might be a good call.
5) GY hate slots. I'm totally confused about this. I hardly ever meet a graveyard deck like Ichorid or similar stuff, and while it's pretty good to have something against PiF (and KotR?), frankly the Crypt and Cage aren't completely interchangeble. Also, with mere two slots devoted to grave, I may just as well use these slots for anythng else, be it LftL, additional Flusterstorms, some removal or whatever.
6) I still can't make my mind on Divert/Misdirection. I used it, but was always completely disappointed, so what's the popular opinion?
7) I think I'll move Clique main, it's fine to have someone to ride for victory after all your dudes get Bolted/Decayed.

So, with a maindeck that looks like this...:

57x Canadian Threshold
1x Spell Snare
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Forked Bolt

..does it make sense to build sb like this?
2x Rough//Tumble
3x Submerge
1x Krosan Grip
1x Ancient Grudge
2x Pyroblast
2x Flusterstorm
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Pithing Needle

What am I missing, what's redundant? :really:

[Barbed Blightning]

I don't think clique will work--the decks that are decaying and bolting your dudes will also be wasting (or in the case of tempo archetypes stifling as well) your lands. Hitting three mana will be an uphill battle.

In non waste matches, clique is alright, but not spectacular. As a threat it drops (at the earliest) two turns too late, and its effect is relatively weak. It has no bombiness to it (unlike, say, sulfur elemental) or beef (3/1).

In short, I'd sooner run a forked bolt, dismember or even Fire//Ice over it.

EDIT: SB, however, looks great. The only cards I dislike is crypt (solid but there are probably better cards) and cage, which has been complete dogshit for me. Haven't played it since elves got big tho

[Mr. Crane]

i´m dont like clique, since decay down a counterbalance, with more death and taxes im think sulfur elemental is better choice or ooze.

Im like use one surgical extraction against loam+punishing fire decks and sometimes against Intuitions from Hightide and SnT, im considering use 2 surgical or 1 surgical 1 tormond´s, never 1 cage.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Problem with Surgical/Crypt is that contrary to Cage, they don't completely stop Dredge and once they'll force you to play/crack the card, they may burst out. Cage just sits in play and annoys them. Also it's much better against PiF combo, although Crypt is solid when they try CRit->IT.
I definitely must think about Clique again. Abrupt Decay changed a lot, and the one aditional (moreover evasive) creature with power of 3 may be the difference. ALso, it's quite solid against combo and control and even the tempo matchups someties take a bit longer than just StifleWasteDazeGG.

[Ziveeman]

I like Vendilion Clique. You don't really board it in vs Abrupt Decay decks anyway, it's more for combo decks and blue based decks like Miracles since it's harder to hit with Counterbalance. Playing it maindeck is a little sketch though. Don't get me wrong (I did it for awhile) but vs Wasteland decks it can be tough to cast.

[Barbed Blightning]

Problem with Surgical/Crypt is that contrary to Cage, they don't completely stop Dredge and once they'll force you to play/crack the card, they may burst out. Cage just sits in play and annoys them. Also it's much better against PiF combo, although Crypt is solid when they try CRit->IT.
I definitely must think about Clique again. Abrupt Decay changed a lot, and the one aditional (moreover evasive) creature with power of 3 may be the difference. ALso, it's quite solid against combo and control and even the tempo matchups someties take a bit longer than just StifleWasteDazeGG.

No offense, but I haven't even SEEN a dredge player since October 2012.

Surgical in my opinion suffers from "too little too late" syndrome. Yeah sometimes you'll have a "gotcha!" moment and blow out your opponent but the majority of the time the problem card has already resolved, and if it's surgical-worthy then it is too late.

In short, surgical is reactive, we want to be proactive. Crypt (more or less) forces a dredge player to overextend.

My point with the tempo match was simply that cheap, efficient threats are needed to win. Clique is made of glass. Ooze, however, looks enticing.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I like Vendilion Clique. You don't really board it in vs Abrupt Decay decks anyway, it's more for combo decks and blue based decks like Miracles since it's harder to hit with Counterbalance. Playing it maindeck is a little sketch though. Don't get me wrong (I did it for awhile) but vs Wasteland decks it can be tough to cast.
Yep, exactly my thoughts, I'm glad you confirmed them. Still, I think I'll try the maindeck faerie, at least I'll be 100% sure how it works and may either adopt it or abandon it for good.



No offense, but I haven't even SEEN a dredge player since October 2012.

Surgical in my opinion suffers from "too little too late" syndrome. Yeah sometimes you'll have a "gotcha!" moment and blow out your opponent but the majority of the time the problem card has already resolved, and if it's surgical-worthy then it is too late.

In short, surgical is reactive, we want to be proactive. Crypt (more or less) forces a dredge player to overextend.

My point with the tempo match was simply that cheap, efficient threats are needed to win. Clique is made of glass. Ooze, however, looks enticing.
Yes, I also seen zero Ichorids not counting my very own... :) It was meant more like an additional pro of Crypt, not it's main feature.
Yes, Ooze is also a good idea, but frankly, does the 1 mana matters, when we may play Clique EOT? Also, Ooze is quite fragile (at least the first turn) and we fon't play that much green to feed it extremely fast. Moreover, it may rush away from Bolt range quite fast, but Decay still hits it.
One more thing, too: although I stated that Clique is meant to be used because of Decay, it isn't the sole reason. The whole premise is that ever since post-Decay when our creatures became more vulnerable, I look for one more slot to fill the gap that opposing Decays leave in my offense. Clique with its eva, flash and power=3 is quite capable attacker, at least it may from-EOT onslaught Jace/Lili,AND she also has very powerful effect (at least in some matchups). Yes, the three mana hurt, but realistically - it's just a one single card that won't clog our hands and in mid/long game it can break the stall, esp. in the mirror, which is dominated by Goyf stares and shower of bolts that kill the Delvers.

[Barbed Blightning]

I'm still unconvinced that decay has forced RUG to change in any fundamental way. Yeah it's uncountable but we just have to attack it from the angle we can: mana denial. Our wastes and stifles can still save us in the early turns.

Honestly, DRS is much more of a problem card than decay, imo, since he hurts goose, our only decay-proof threat, terribly.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Sadly, AD comes pretty often paired with DRS and thus the manadenial plan doesn't work 100%. The only thing they need to play AD is to have :b::g: available, meaning they need a sole land and an active DRS that did not die to the "many" removal we play. Not an impossible task, manadenial or not, esp. when they start and may fetch land and play DRS without fear of Stifle/Daze.

AD changed the thing fundamentally, because in past you just played your threat and then protected it from removal until it won you the game; ok, sometimes you were unable to do it, but that's another story. There's no maindeck protection against AD and even the post-sb one is pretty janky: Submerge (ok, maybe Divert) and that's about it. Delver dies to every fart, Mongose can't break through opposing Goyfs/KotRs/Germs/younameit and is a mere 3/3 even if the ground is clear. Goyf, while also easily blocked by KotR, at least makes short work with Germs, and doesn't die when blocked by Goyf (in cases like double Goyf into their one, or Goyf+Bolt into Goyf, etc.) and with a power of 4/5 at the very least (but someties even more, as every Sylvan Library, Liliana, etc. feeds him) is a bit faster and he also recovers from RiP/Relic much faster - not that these cards are played alongside Decay, but whatever...

[Barbed Blightning]

Sadly, AD comes pretty often paired with DRS and thus the manadenial plan doesn't work 100%. The only thing they need to play AD is to have :b::g: available, meaning their need sole land and an active DRS that did not die to the "many" removal we play. Not an impossible task, manadenial or not, esp. when they start and may fetch land and play DRS without fear of Stifle/Daze.

AD changed the thing fundamentally, because in past you just played your threat and then protected it from removal until it won you the game; ok, sometimes you were unable to do it, but that's another story. There's no maindeck protection against AD and even the post-sb one is pretty janky: Submerge (ok, maybe Divert) and that's about it. Delver dies to every fart, Mongose can't break through opposing Goyfs/KotRs/Germs/younameit and is a mere 3/3 even if the ground is clear. Goyf, while also easily blocked by KotR, at least makes short work with Germs, and doesn't die when blocked by Goyf (in cases like double Goyf into their one, or Goyf+Bolt into Goyf, etc.) and with a power of 4/5 at the very least (but someties even more, as every Sylvan Library, Liliana, etc. feeds him) is a bit faster and he also recovers from RiP/Relic much faster - not that these cards are played along Decay, but whatever...

It's just removal. It's nothing we haven't seen before--unlike DRS, who exemplifies the emergent midrange archetype by being an accelerant, utility and threat in one efficient body.

Decay is obviously powerful vs us because of its uncounterability, but unless you are playing vs Jund (very winnable still due to the suicidal and greedy nature of the deck) four decays are going to be the bulk of your problems in a match. Run surgical if you are really scared of the card and save your future dudes after one is struck down.

Take STP or Bolt for example, the first and second best creature removal spells in the format. Both CAN be countered, but due to their less prohibitive costs they are still hard to daze/pierce consistently. Forcing, unless you are certain that it will resolve, is too risky.

Each have an element that can hurt us as well. Bolt hits your head. STP can be used defensively. STP exiles, meaning thresh or goyf counts could be impacted. Both are played in decks with Snapcaster, meaning a countered removal spell can still be active, or could 2-for-1.

In short, I'm not scared of Abrupt Decay

[Bed Decks Palyer]

It's just removal. It's nothing we haven't seen before--unlike DRS, who exemplifies the emergent midrange archetype by being an accelerant, utility and threat in one efficient body.

Decay is obviously powerful vs us because of its uncounterability, but unless you are playing vs Jund (very winnable still due to the suicidal and greedy nature of the deck) four decays are going to be the bulk of your problems in a match. Run surgical if you are really scared of the card and save your future dudes after one is struck down.

Take STP or Bolt for example, the first and second best creature removal spells in the format. Both CAN be countered, but due to their less prohibitive costs they are still hard to daze/pierce consistently. Forcing, unless you are certain that it will resolve, is too risky.

Each have an element that can hurt us as well. Bolt hits your head. STP can be used defensively. STP exiles, meaning thresh or goyf counts could be impacted. Both are played in decks with Snapcaster, meaning a countered removal spell can still be active, or could 2-for-1.

In short, I'm not scared of Abrupt Decay
Sadly, I find myself playing against decks with both Decay and Snappy quite often. :laugh:
EDIT: Well, I need to add something. It's an UBG control deck that plays two LftL main, so basically this matchup might be unwinnable: the guy has access to all the available tools to make my manadenial plan not work, his many PWs and removal recursion stops my targetable creatures and Goose losses to DRS and Lili.

[cheerios]

Besides mana denial, bolting Deathrite Shaman and not allowing them to resolve Lilianna or Tarmogoyf has been important points of my current gameplan vs BGX (BUG delver, Shardless BUG, and Jund). Games usually end with me winning through nimble mongoose, Tarmogoyf dead, and Delver used as FOW fodder.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Besides mana denial, bolting Deathrite Shaman and not allowing them to resolve Lilianna or Tarmogoyf has been important points of my current gameplan vs BGX (BUG delver, Shardless BUG, and Jund). Games usually end with me winning through nimble mongoose, Tarmogoyf dead, and Delver used as FOW fodder.
Yep, I analyzed the DRS.dec matchups and realized that of all the cards they play, only DRS is such a pain that it warrants additional answer - something that not even Decay or Liliana deserve. Unfortunately, the slots are limited and I don't really like to play 2 Forked Bolts, so I gonna try the Snare+Bolt+F/I combination. I expect to be dissapointed by the latter and look forward to playing my sixth sorcery. If only there weren't so many red decks, I'd play Chain Lightning in a minute, but losing to myself is so tiresome...

[Barbed Blightning]

Yep, I analyzed the DRS.dec matchups and realized that of all the cards they play, only DRS is such a pain that it warrants additional answer - something that not even Decay or Liliana deserve. Unfortunately, the slots are limited and I don't really like to play 2 Forked Bolts, so I gonna try the Snare+Bolt+F/I combination. I expect to be dissapointed by the latter and look forward to playing my sixth sorcery. If only there weren't so many red decks, I'd play Chain Lightning in a minute, but losing to myself is so tiresome...

So your solution to the turn one problem of DRS is fire, a two-mana forked bolt?

FB has always been terrific IMO. Especially against mav or D&T

[Bed Decks Palyer]

So your solution to the turn one problem of DRS is fire, a two-mana forked bolt?

FB has always been terrific IMO. Especially against mav or D&T

No, my solution is 5x 1-mana removal and 1x two-mana removal. Also, not every game they start and I really want something else then crappy sorcery bolt or abysmal black card that hurts me for four.
Any other idea? I'm asking seriously... Would you rather play double Forked Bolt? Because right now I don't see a maindeckable card that could fight DRS better than some :r: removal. The only reason why I include F/I is surprise factor and the fact that it's not completely dead against Goyf.

[Barbed Blightning]

No, my solution is 5x 1-mana removal and 1x two-mana removal. Also, not every game they start and I really want something else then crappy sorcery bolt or abysmal black card that hurts me for four.
Any other idea? I'm asking seriously... Would you rather play double Forked Bolt? Because right now I don't see a maindeckable card that could fight DRS better than some :r: removal. The only reason why I include F/I is surprise factor and the fact that it's not completely dead against Goyf.

I DO play double forked bolt. They are great. Sorceries are lacking in this deck aside from ponder (or maybe probe) so being able to consistently get goyf to a 4/5 is relevant in some matches like tribal decks.

The ability to ping two dudes, a dude and a planeswalker or any other combination of targets for one mana is still pretty damn good. Plus, yes, it can kill DRS

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I DO play double forked bolt. They are great. Sorceries are lacking in this deck aside from ponder (or maybe probe) so being able to consistently get goyf to a 4/5 is relevant in some matches like tribal decks.

The ability to ping two dudes, a dude and a planeswalker or any other combination of targets for one mana is still pretty damn good. Plus, yes, it can kill DRS

Ok, I misunderstood the "terrific" part of your previous post. Gonna try that setting, then. :smile:

[Barbed Blightning]

Ok, I misunderstood the "terrific" part of your previous post. Gonna try that setting, then. :smile:

Another possible removal spell to consider is vapor snag. It's not really removal, but it pings and can be cast with any colored land we play, plus it can save a dude from decay/lilly/what have you. Plus of can take out a big dude for turn(which is all you need sometimes).

[kingsey]

What makes rug tempo so much more popular then bug ?

I know rug seems to place much more often, my question is plainly. What does rug do that bug doesn't ?

[Barbed Blightning]

What makes rug tempo so much more popular then bug ?

I know rug seems to place much more often, my question is plainly. What does rug do that bug doesn't ?

Lightning Bolt.

[Tammit67]

What makes rug tempo so much more popular then bug ?

I know rug seems to place much more often, my question is plainly. What does rug do that bug doesn't ?

Have an amazing sideboard plan against every deck in the format while keeping the manacosts between 0 and 2.

Rough//tumble, pyroblast, ancient grudge, sulfur elemental, and lightning bolt: why pay twice as much when don't have too?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Another possible removal spell to consider is vapor snag. It's not really removal, but it pings and can be cast with any colored land we play, plus it can save a dude from decay/lilly/what have you. Plus of can take out a big dude for turn(which is all you need sometimes).
Hm. Never thought of it. The fact that it saves Goyf/Delver from Decay is sweet, even at the cost of one life this ain't bad.
As a removal it is quite strange. It's nice that it can remove their blocker but in the long term it does very little, namely against DRS which they may replay immediatelly after their draw phase passes. I'm not sure if for this matter F/I ain't better - yes, it costs one mana more, but it kills DRS and "removes" any big blocker while cantripping. :rolleyes:
I consider dropping the single Snare and going for either 3x Forked Bolt or even 3x Chain Lightning. That random Snare does little, once in a pale moon it hits Goyf/Hymn and that's it. Otoh, playing additional burn might prove helpful, as it can remove DRS/MoR/elves/Delver or end the game when directed to dome.

[Zombie]

Izzet Charm?

[Eldamion]

Nice discussion here.

The big question in my mind is: Is gitaxian probe now a must mainddeck card?

The last time I played RUG, I had 2 copies in my maindeck, I I was very happy with them.

They helped my to structure my next turn.
See what my opponent has in hand, what do I have to counter in which way, and finally draws me an extra card.

My opponents were never happy when I had a full view to thair hands.

Chris Pikula played 3 copies last weekend, so what are your thougts?

[cheerios]

Nice discussion here.

The big question in my mind is: Is gitaxian probe now a must mainddeck card?

The last time I played RUG, I had 2 copies in my maindeck, I I was very happy with them.

They helped my to structure my next turn.
See what my opponent has in hand, what do I have to counter in which way, and finally draws me an extra card.

My opponents were never happy when I had a full view to thair hands.

Chris Pikula played 3 copies last weekend, so what are your thougts?

It's a must maindeck card for me. Been playing with 3 copies lately. It was never useless for me and was always crucial in decision making.

[Dzra]

Since Gitaxian Probe is starting to be the norm, is it worth it to try squeezing in a single Snapcaster Mage? It's value increases quite a bit when you have the option of running it out as a two drop.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

For those who play GP (namely those who found place for three of them), how does your maindeck look like?

[Tammit67]

For those who play GP (namely those who found place for three of them), how does your maindeck look like?

Been using Chris Pikula's 74 (not running a zuran orb since burn isn't really a factor locally). The lack of a 4th stifle is a but unnerving but the 3rd probe means more velocity and it often pans out. I'm considering running a Young Pyromancer over the 4th goyf for testing purposes after watching Pikula's off camera feature match against shardless where it seemed to take over a game.

[Pherion]

Have an amazing sideboard plan against every deck in the format while keeping the manacosts between 0 and 2.

Rough//tumble, pyroblast, ancient grudge, sulfur elemental, and lightning bolt: why pay twice as much when don't have too?


Hm. Never thought of it. The fact that it saves Goyf/Delver from Decay is sweet, even at the cost of one life this ain't bad.
As a removal it is quite strange. It's nice that it can remove their blocker but in the long term it does very little, namely against DRS which they may replay immediatelly after their draw phase passes. I'm not sure if for this matter F/I ain't better - yes, it costs one mana more, but it kills DRS and "removes" any big blocker while cantripping. :rolleyes:
I consider dropping the single Snare and going for either 3x Forked Bolt or even 3x Chain Lightning. That random Snare does little, once in a pale moon it hits Goyf/Hymn and that's it. Otoh, playing additional burn might prove helpful, as it can remove DRS/MoR/elves/Delver or end the game when directed to dome.

I used Vapor Snag to great effect a few months ago when Team America was a big deal. Snagging a Tombstalker the turn they swing with it is very fun. They look at their empty graveyard, look at the flying-5/5-8 CMC monstrosity in their hand, then sigh. It's a fantastic card in the right circumstances. For instance, at that same time, sneak and show was also very popular - and I hit a few Grisslebrands with it as well.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I used Vapor Snag to great effect a few months ago when Team America was a big deal. Snagging a Tombstalker the turn they swing with it is very fun. They look at their empty graveyard, look at the flying-5/5-8 CMC monstrosity in their hand, then sigh. It's a fantastic card in the right circumstances. For instance, at that same time, sneak and show was also very popular - and I hit a few Grisslebrands with it as well.
Thanks for an idea. I see that as long as my meta is mostly DRS and quite none Stalker, I should rather use Forked Bolt than anything else... except maybe for Probe.

[Griselpuff]

Anybody have any experience with Winter Orb? Obviously, DRS is a problem, but if we assume we can kill or counter DRS, then it seems like a pretty great complement to the mana denial plan.

[SirTylerGalt]

Nice discussion here.

The big question in my mind is: Is gitaxian probe now a must mainddeck card?

The last time I played RUG, I had 2 copies in my maindeck, I I was very happy with them.

They helped my to structure my next turn.
See what my opponent has in hand, what do I have to counter in which way, and finally draws me an extra card.

My opponents were never happy when I had a full view to thair hands.

Chris Pikula played 3 copies last weekend, so what are your thougts?

Chris Pikula said he wants to add a 4th Gitaxian Probe in his Top 8 Profile: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/2121_legacy_open_top_8_profiles.html

I've been playing 1-2 Probes these last few months. They've been awesome. I might want to go up to 3. I know some people will think this is blasphemous, but I like the idea of cutting 1 Stifle. Some people advocate playing RUG Delver with 0 Stifle (Drew Levin a while ago, wcm8 in this thread). I think playing 2-3 is better, because you can still get people with it, or represent it when you don't have it in hand.

I like Thought Scour against Deathrite Shaman, since it lets you thresh your mongooses in the face of an opposing DRS. Not sure if it is better than Probe, though...

[Barbed Blightning]

Anybody have any experience with Winter Orb? Obviously, DRS is a problem, but if we assume we can kill or counter DRS, then it seems like a pretty great complement to the mana denial plan.

Some BUG Delver decks use it instead of sinkhole.

It could be fantastic. What would you put in your sideboard

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Anybody have any experience with Winter Orb? Obviously, DRS is a problem, but if we assume we can kill or counter DRS, then it seems like a pretty great complement to the mana denial plan.

I bought three of them just to have them available, but never tried them yet. In a deck without non-land manasources this might be a bit dangerous, also I really can't tell how exactly I'd use them. I know that there are matchups where they might be helpful (e.g. Jund?), but I'm not sure if a 2-mana do.nothing card is the best I may sb in.

[cheerios]

Chris Pikula said he wants to add a 4th Gitaxian Probe in his Top 8 Profile: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/2121_legacy_open_top_8_profiles.html

I've been playing 1-2 Probes these last few months. They've been awesome. I might want to go up to 3. I know some people will think this is blasphemous, but I like the idea of cutting 1 Stifle. Some people advocate playing RUG Delver with 0 Stifle (Drew Levin a while ago, wcm8 in this thread). I think playing 2-3 is better, because you can still get people with it, or represent it when you don't have it in hand.

I like Thought Scour against Deathrite Shaman, since it lets you thresh your mongooses in the face of an opposing DRS. Not sure if it is better than Probe, though...

I'd recommend cutting a spell pierce first before cutting stifle. I'm playing 5 burn spells and 2 pierces in my 3 probe build. It's been successful so far against DRS.

[trollking21]

Why is gitaxian probe seeing so much love im not a fan of paying 2 life for information. How often do you actually cast it for mana.
In a list like mine what would you cut to play 2-3 of them

18 land

4 goyf
4 delver
4 goose

4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 lightning bolt
2 forked bolt
1 spell snare
3 spell pierce
4 force
4 daze
4 stifle

[Scordata]

I've tested probe extensively. IMO it's a crutch - and ultimately should be avoided.
If you're playing properly you'll be ahead or at parity with cards anyway.

I think 7 "removal" spells is where this deck wants to be nowadays, thanks to DRS.
Research has shown me that outside of a turn 1 combo win, a turn 1 DRS on the play
is now the most powerful thing you can do in legacy. FOW worthy.
Due to this fact, I've decided that Spell Pierce isn't a maindeck inclusion anymore.

Outside of combo, the only real targets are removal, hand disruption, counterspells, walkers, and miracles.
Proper play can and should negate the first three, and daze/fow act as hedges against the latter two game 1.
StP/Bolt on your delver/goyf is bait - you should only be countering things that prevent you from winning
ie KotR, SFM, SCM, DRS, and a slew of other cards that Spell pierce misses, but Spell snare might hit.

I think many will disagree, but proper utilization of the mana denial suite,
coupled with the oft-debated spell snare, should get you there.

Remember, you never want to be tapping out - I think that might be where a lot of
debate is coming in. This isn't a "playstyle" issue: you need to be generating tempo
consistently, and constantly asking yourself who the beatdown is. Use your stifles
and wastelands wisely - the inherent "engine" of the deck is your decision tree.

Winter orb will hurt you more than help you. This deck wants 3 lands in play MAX.
1 trop, 1 Volc, 1 Fetch for shuffling away cards that are not relevant.

[BKclassic]

IMO, Probe is pretty darn good. The information you get from Probe tells you how to better utilize the cards in your hand. Basically, the card often generates up to a few virtual card's worth of advantage and it also helps fill your graveyard, which is pretty much right where this deck wants to be and is typically well worth the 2 life. You always have the option to pay a blue against decks where your life total is relevant. I would highly reccomend running at least 2.

[cheerios]

Probe makes stifle a lot better. With probe, you can comfortably save your stifles for other purposes other than stifling fetches. You'll know when the mana dial plan will work or if you have to save it for an EE, Pernicious Deed, Jace, Lili etc activation. It helps with brainstorming as well. Knowing which cards to keep based on an opponents options usually speeds up the game. I just noticed that with probe, I've been ending a lot of games earlier than before. However, if you know that your meta is a bunch of tribal and aggro decks, you might be better off with the 6 to 7 burn build.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I wouldn't cut Pierces although I may see a reason for playing 2/2/2 split of Pierce/Snare/FB. Pierce is too good against Lili/Jace/Trini/Lingering Souls/anything else to not include it. Good luck dazing Liliana when they have active DRS, good luck Snaring her.
I still don't think that GP is worthy.

[Serbitar]

StP/Bolt on your delver/goyf is bait - you should only be countering things that prevent you from winning [...]

Remember, you never want to be tapping out - I think that might be where a lot of
debate is coming in. This isn't a "playstyle" issue: you need to be generating tempo
consistently, and constantly asking yourself who the beatdown is. Use your stifles
and wastelands wisely - the inherent "engine" of the deck is your decision tree.


Two theses I disagree with: Removal on your threats does keep this deck from winning, and that is especially due to its tempo nature. What use is snaring a Mystic, e.g., when they killed your guy? This is not a control deck.
The same goes for tapping out. How is not tapping out 'generating tempo'? Delaying threats in order to not tap out is the opposite of tempo. (I do agree though that there are some matchups were getting them with every Stifle is more important than deploying a threat – decks with a lot of removal come to mind – but not tapping out is not generally advisable.)

[Scordata]

I'm glad to see there's an active discussion regarding the evolution of the deck vs the "metagame."

Here's the deal with probe: it's well agreed upon that legacy is often a battle of information.
Probe would SEEM to be the card we've been looking for - it's free (save two life), gets you
info, and replaces itself! How awesome is that?

Consider, however, the informational exchange you've just initiated - your opponent KNOWS
that you've just seen their hand. Do you think that might effect their strategy at all? I'd elaborate
here, but I wont insult your intelligence. Savvy players will react accordingly. In case it's not obvious,
drawing probe in multiples really sucks. I'd rather draw reach in multiples - long games can and will
happen; burn can and will seal the deal. This is where snaring their mystic is useful, for example.

As for the Pierce dilemma - you should be able to win through a Liliana, and if you're letting Jace
resolve it's for a few reasons. You either have a creature heavy hand, in which case you should
just kill them, or you've failed the deck. #SorryI'mNotSorry.

Lingering souls is a different story - if your meta is filled with snapcaster/souls decks, Pierce is
arguably an inclusion. I'd rather take the middle ground. Remember that Fire or Forked bolt
is just as effective here, with additional applications (2 at the dome/Walker/Creature that
you can kill after blockers.)

And if you're of the opinion that this deck can't be a control deck, we're going to have to agree
to disagree.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I'm glad to see there's an active discussion regarding the evolution of the deck vs the "metagame."

Here's the deal with probe: it's well agreed upon that legacy is often a battle of information.
Probe would SEEM to be the card we've been looking for - it's free (save two life), gets you
info, and replaces itself! How awesome is that?

Consider, however, the informational exchange you've just initiated - your opponent KNOWS
that you've just seen their hand. Do you think that might effect their strategy at all? I'd elaborate
here, but I wont insult your intelligence. Savvy players will react accordingly. In case it's not obvious,
drawing probe in multiples really sucks. I'd rather draw reach in multiples - long games can and will
happen; burn can and will seal the deal. This is where snaring their mystic is useful, for example.

As for the Pierce dilemma - you should be able to win through a Liliana, and if you're letting Jace
resolve it's for a few reasons. You either have a creature heavy hand, in which case you should
just kill them, or you've failed the deck. #SorryI'mNotSorry.

Lingering souls is a different story - if your meta is filled with snapcaster/souls decks, Pierce is
arguably an inclusion. I'd rather take the middle ground. Remember that Fire or Forked bolt
is just as effective here, with additional applications (2 at the dome/Walker/Creature that
you can kill after blockers.)
Well, I do agree on Probe idea, although I'm a bit lazy to evaluate the "now they know that now we know" part. At least I'll repeat myself: there's a finite number of cantrips a particular deck may play and imho this number is 8 for Thresh.

You pretty often just can't win through Liliana, unless it's some kind of Innistrad draft deck remains... She is extremely versatile and it's a crad that looks like designed to beat RUG - we don't play enough creatures to ignore the -2 ability, her +1 is very annoying when playing a deck without any CA. It's played in decks that are capable of pretty nasty plays and moreover decks that pack enough removal, DRS and ground walls to blank Goyfs, so your main ways of victory are fast Delver damage followed by Mongoose grinds once the ground clears... and unfortunately Lili can kill the latter. Also, there are other spells than just Lili that deserve Pierce, e.g. AdN into I-win-now.
Firing JTMS/Lili is awful, awful. Especially if they start with their + abilities. Also, isn't it better to not let the spell resolve at all, rather than to try to ping the PW for 2 that maybe don't even destroy it?



And if you're of the opinion that this deck can't be a control deck, we're going to have to agree
to disagree.
Sadly, this makes no sense to me. :really: Are you arguing this deck can't be control? Then I really disagree. See all those control cards we play, e.g. Spell Pierce.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I took Canadian Threshold for four rounds of swiss in our lgs.


Qty Name
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
//\\
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
//\\
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
2 Forked Bolt
//\\
// Sideboard
2 Rough/Tumble
3 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sulfur Elemental


A small sidenote: I just looked up pithing needle in google. Pfff... bleh.:cry:


There was a big tournament in our city on weekend, so I was afraid that the lgs will be full of tourists. I was also not really thrilled to listen to all the usual stuff linked to the tournamet, like who did what to whom and who bought this and that. Fortunately all stories were told before I came and the four tourists that occupied one table weren't playing the tournament (lucky me, I dislike to speak American). They were drafting and in fact left pretty soon after they bought a display of MMA.


Round 1, Kay, UGB
We started a bit late, as the FWBs were buying the display and had some trouble to decide on the edition. Nevermind.
g1: I made a mistake of Dazing DRS though I had Bolt, so his Goyf resolved. My three mongeese were beating while the Goyf attacked my life total. Kay wasted my sole red, than he hymned away my two Bolts and finished on 5 life with me having the named three ferrets, a Forked Bolt in hand, road open for one creature but no red for the burn.
sb: in 2x Rough/Tumble, 3x Submerge, 2x Pithing Needle, 1x Ancient Grudge, out 2-4x Force of Will, 4x Daze. I kept some FoWs against Liliana and I'm not sure on Snare, maybe I kept it because of Hymn. Definitely not sure here.
g2: Kay had triple DRS which never did a thing cause Needle is great. Otoh, he resolved Eng. Plague naming Mongoose - btw, I really thought they were re-raced to ferret, but w/e -, at least I was fast enogh to build threshold in resp to it, so I had a 2/2 shroud dude. On my 14 or 12 life he EOT decayed the Needle, to which I responded by bolting one DRS so that they don't take me out of game. On his turn he made this and that, attacked with a manland that I promptly Bolted and passed right into the Rough. I drew Mongoose and then yet another one and won.
sb: no changes... I think.
g3: Kay started with DRS and Stryx. I double Stifled his fetchland activation, then Bolted DRS and left him with no mana source. I played Goose, begrudged Stryx, wasted two of his lands, flipped two Delvers (one get hit by Disfigure), had nothing to stop his Ancestral, cast a Goyf, Submerged his own Goyf and won.
1-0


Round 2, Tee, Elves!
g1: Tee mulled to four and conceded after Fok Bolt took care of his Birchlore and Quirion Rangers.
sb: 2x Rough/Tumble, 3x Submerge, 2x Needle, out Spell Snare, 2x Daze, 4x Mongoose
g2: Bolt on his DRS made Tee not really happy. He then played Symbiote and something more. I played two Delvers, then on my next upkeep I brainstormed, drawing land, land... Rough/Tumble. Revealed the Rough, flipped Delvers, played Rough. (Too soon maybe.) He tried to get back into play with a Heritage Druid or two, but I had Bolt and Delvers finished the game really fast.
2-0


Round 2, Dee, S&T
Pretty stupid games, I dare to say...:
g1: I flipped Delver quite fast, played some cantrips, stifled fetch, killed a Tomb and won the game during which my opponents' most memorable spell was a random cantrip.
sb: in 2x Pyroblast, 1x Flusterstorm, 1x Grudge, 1x KGrip, 1X Sulfur Emental, out removal. (He has a habit of taking Leyline against Bolts, so...)
g2: Dee was stuck on one land for a few turns while I flipped the fly with a Grip. Then I wasted his Tomb to which he responded with Wish. I BSed and Dazed, but made a mistake of keeping Goyf instead of one of the fetches. then I shuffled away my third land and was one mana short of Grip when I needed it. Stupid, stupid Bed Decks Palyer... :frown:
g3: I attacked with Mongoose and got him to 14 life when he played Dream Halls. A monstrous battle for stack domination happened, figuring some cantrips, PoN, Flusterstorm or two and ultimately triple Daze leaving him with an empty hand and Halls. I drew and played Delver, managed to even flip it, but on his two consecutive turns he drew PoN and EtI which was sadly enough to win due to the named D. Halls. Sadface.
2-1
After the game was over he asked me if I kept Stifles in. I said "no, I took Pyroclasm, obv" and then I was informed it does nothing against Maniac kill. One may learn something new...


Round 4, Jee, Jund
Another pair of sick games.
g1: I got a fast Delver, Dazed and Fowed two Hymns, then I 2x Wasted Jee's lands keeping her of green. My three Bolts were enough to kill a Confidant... and his owner a bit later.
sb: 2x R/T, 3x Submerge, 2x Needle, out all Dazes, 2x FoW.
g2: It was all like fetch-Stifle, dual-Waste, Confidant-Bolt, 2x Delver, Mongoose. Jee was stuck on Badland and Waste, at least she got herself a DRS. But she needed to fetch Badland because of my Submerge and was very limited. Her PFire was double Pierced, which forced her to tap DRS to pay the mana. On upkeep I revealed BS and flipped the second Delver, played BS which threshedthe Mongoose and she conceeded on 3 life.
3-1


For my efforts I won two Surg. Extractions and one pack of Perfect Fits.

On deck: I wouldn't change a thing, except maybe for the Sulfur Elemental that bears no weight against non-white meta.

[Qtc]

Well, I do agree on Probe idea, although I'm a bit lazy to evaluate the "now they know that now we know" part. At least I'll repeat myself: there's a finite number of cantrips a particular deck may play and imho this number is 8 for Thresh.

I'll evaluate the 'now they know that now we know' part for you. I do understand it but I don't agree with it because it also works the other way around. For example; Hmm this guy probes me, sees I have liliana in my hand which I can play turn two because of my turn one DRS, yet he still play's a turn two Goyf. He must have daze/force. Better not play lilly.. Same psychology, just the other way around. I really do like probe because I agree with what cheerios said. Probe, among other things, makes stifle a lot better because you know whether or not you need to keep stifle up. This is a tempo and a control deck, maybe the best word to describe Rug delver is as a 'pressure' deck. You either play tempo by putting tempo in play or you play control by keeping mana up. Daze and Force try and help you do both, but in essence Probe helps you make the right decision. But probe does more than that.
Probe also puts a sorcery card in your gy and lets another card take its place in your hand for two life. Seeing how you are the aggressor those two life are allmost neglitable. In my opinion Nimble Moongoose is an allstar in this deck and to keep pressure on your opponent hitting threshold as fast as possible is really important. Next to that it's also another sorcery so it makes sure Goyf is likely at least a 3/4. I run three probes myself and I really like them especially for the free filling of your gy part. Don't forget that it's also a pretty safe card to run.. It's better having it turn one or two but it doesn't matter much pulling it turn six!


You pretty often just can't win through Liliana, unless it's some kind of Innistrad draft deck remains... She is extremely versatile and it's a crad that looks like designed to beat RUG - we don't play enough creatures to ignore the -2 ability, her +1 is very annoying when playing a deck without any CA. It's played in decks that are capable of pretty nasty plays and moreover decks that pack enough removal, DRS and ground walls to blank Goyfs, so your main ways of victory are fast Delver damage followed by Mongoose grinds once the ground clears... and unfortunately Lili can kill the latter. Also, there are other spells than just Lili that deserve Pierce, e.g. AdN into I-win-now.
Firing JTMS/Lili is awful, awful. Especially if they start with their + abilities. Also, isn't it better to not let the spell resolve at all, rather than to try to ping the PW for 2 that maybe don't even destroy it?

Yes, Liliana is a pretty problematic card against this deck, especially in a Shardless Bug deck.. It's just a deck where you need to find enough answers and they need to draw blanks, otherwise you're screwed. It's a deck where every single card they play is bad for us and needs to be answered.. Simply put, Shardless Bug is a bad matchup where you need a bit of luck..

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Well written, Qtc!

I still can't force myself to play the Probe. If only there'd be a bit more room, but right now I really want every Bolt possible.

[Barbed Blightning]

I know this is just a preposterous idea, but I hope they unban mental misstep.

[trollking21]

Why? How is it relevant to this deck (other then another free counter). And it won't be unbanned, they broke the game once

[Barbed Blightning]

Why? How is it relevant to this deck (other then another free counter). And it won't be unbanned, they broke the game once

I mean, I'd instantly play four, with two snares.

[Fatal]

MM was also the nightmare for RUG so I say NO for those dirty mechanical broken cards ;)

[Tylert]

yeah. All decks will play 4 MM instantly, just to battle other decks playing MM...
This card sucks, it's just too powerfull.

[humppa]

yeah. All decks will play 4 MM instantly, just to battle other decks playing MM...
This card sucks, it's just too powerfull.

And deck which will adapt will win everything. Just adapt to metagame and stop crying. It is easy to win over deck with 4MM. You can play canadian with 4MM or other deck which is not that addicted on 1cc slot.

[Super Nintendo Chalmers]

And deck which will adapt will win everything. Just adapt to metagame and stop crying. It is easy to win over deck with 4MM. You can play canadian with 4MM or other deck which is not that addicted on 1cc slot.

Lets just have no ban list then and let everything sort itself out?

[Plague Sliver]

Back to non-speculative topics...

Re: Gitaxian Probe

One pro of playing 4 Probes is that you're effectively making the deck 56 cards. In a deck that's tight on space and as lean as possible with no CA engine, that's a Good Thing.

Re: Young Pyromancer

I noticed Pikula threw in 1x Young Pyro in the SB. That's too random of a singleton for my tastes.

Could we conceivably cut a Goyf or two, and replace with Young Pyros? I can't think of Moongeese and/or Delvers as being better to cut.

It makes our Rough // Tumbles worse, though.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

One pro of playing 4 Probes is that you're effectively making the deck 56 cards. In a deck that's tight on space and as lean as possible with no CA engine, that's a Good Thing.

You may add Baubles, then, and play with an effectively 36-or-what cards deck. Except that... you know.
Idk. I still can't fall in love with the card.

[Tombstalker]

Probe is one of those cards thats great when you only draw one and the earlier the better. Problem is you need more than 1-2 to expect to do so and hands with 2 probe are pretty much a muligan (or could turn out that way if you knew the 2 blind cards they represent).
Its insane in storm combo where you just need to know what (if anything) can stop your win plus it adds to storm count and flashes off past in flames and such.

In tempo however I feel its far more of an average card, very swingy in value and leaning towards poor against anything packing burn. Also consider hands where you are even (or slightly behind) in board state and go probe-> into another probe.. only to see their hand and say "thats what I suspected". It happens and it sucks.

[Plague Sliver]

That's the challenge isn't it? You play a 4-of, you want to see it in your opener. But it makes mulligan decisions tougher.

You play 3, you don't see it as often. I play TES and it's the same deal with Chrome Mox, why you never want more than 1 in your hand.

After hearing what you guys have to say, I think 3 is pretty reasonable, especially if we can start considering adding meta-spells like Spell Snare again.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Yesterday I played Canadian Thresh for rather unsatisfying 1-1-2 result.


List:

Qty Name
// Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
//\\
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
//\\
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
4 Spell Pierce
2 Forked Bolt
//\\
// Sideboard
3 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
2 Rough/Tumble
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sulfur Elemental


A small note: I met not too many Goyfs in the past few tournaments and even if I did, I just flied over them. Otoh, losing to Liliana and S&T became my new fashion, so I cut the miser's Snare and upped the Pierce count. Needles to say, I was sitting across the biggest pile of Goyf.dec ever, at least in a four-rounder.
I will cut the Pierces back to three at least, but I consider going to 2/2 split. (Mabe 2/1/1 Pierce/Snare/Dsimember split would be the best?)


Round 1, Vac with GWR Zoo.
g1: I started with Trop that gets Wasted. it was a lure, I had three lands in hand plus Ponder. Next turn he play Guide which brings me two cards before I finally bolt it. Thlia jjoins the party, but I waste his only white and play Goyf. He puts two Lavamancers. i play Goose and hold the ground with Goyf, as I need to stabilize a bit. He rushes Thalia into Goyf and I block. If he Grims the Goyf, he loses most of his GY, I'd get thresh and now on I may hold Thalia with Mongoose. He plays it like that, so I lose Goyf and have a 3/3 Goose. (A mistake, I should just ignore Thalia, I was on 15 and although he has two Grims, I'm still pretty fast with a 4/5 Goyf and a threshold in spe.)
I Pondr adn then FB the Grims. On my twelve life he attacks with Thalia I block with Mongoose thinking he made a mistake, but a Ghor-Clan Somethinger learns me I'm dumb. Thalia gets +4/+4 trample, kills the blocker andas I'm unable to recover I lose pretty fast.
sb: out 3 Forces, Dazes (I kept Pierces against removal/Choke), in Submerges, Needles, Rough//Tumbles
g2: Vac once agains leads with Waste->Trop, but now I have Stifle. I draw Waste of Guide and play Delver which flips on the next upkeep with Pierce. Another Delver joins the team. Opponent play Goyf but my Delvers fly and I'm faster. On his four (and mine nine) life I play Goyf to stop the ground beats, turn later I finally get the red source and Fork Bolt ends this.
g3: Goblin Necropotence brought me a card or two before I kill it. Opponent wasted my land, then I played Mongoose. I Fowed Thalia pitching Fow and then Bolt the second one he played on his next turn. He gets Grim online, I Waste his Sav, but he finds Canopy to play Scooze which I immediatelly bolt. Life 15:8 when I needle Grim, life 15:4 when he play Guide. I waste his Canopy so that he doesn't need to ping himself and then attack into his couple. JHe gangblocks and I Submerge the Grim. Guide dies and after he replays the Grim, I BS into FB, split the dmg and attack for the last three life.
Win.


Round 2, Jake with Thresh
We chat a bit, Jake wasn't here for months but he remebers playing me (I had ANt back then).
g1: We start with Rainforests, I got Goose online and Waste his Trop. He plays Goyf, I Fow but he Dazes. Another Goyf (but this mine) shows up, but when I double Daze his Snare, Jake just Fows. His Delver flips of FB and I lose.
sb: out Forces and 2 Dazes, in Submerges, REBs, Flusterstorm (I heard it's good against Stifle, IDK)
g2: He mulls to six, I start with a Delver which flips of Flus, then I double Waste.
b: out Dazes, in two Forces.
g3: We both mull to six. Jake starts with Delver which I REB. We both play Mongoose, my beats before he also gets 7. My Gof gets Snared, then I play Pierce against hs Ponder which was huge mistake. I wished to slow his development as he was stuck on two lands, but I should have kept the Pierce to protect my wincons. I played Delver, but he killed him. Then he wasted my Trop, played Delver and Goyf, flipped Delver of Bolt and finished me.
Somewehre during this match I tried to cheat a second-per-turn landdrop, but been caught by him. I don't understand what exactly happened, I think I was just too concerned about my ongoing Ponder that I forget I casted it of the played Trop so once I arranged the top I immediatelly forgot about the fact I alredy played my land this turn. Needless to say, I was pretty annoyed by the fact that I'm so unfocused, and I effectively gave up the match just because of this mistake, as it was the first one in a row of many many others.
Loss. A well deserved one.


Round 3, Tom with UGBR DRS
g1: He Ponders, I BS. I find Waste and kill his USea. I Stifle his fetch, Tom FoWs. DRS eats Bolt, he Wastes my red, in return I waste his green. Devler eats Daze, then another Waste gets used. I try Mongoose, but Force is with Tom. I play double Delver, Bolt DRS and win.
sb: out Dazes and some crappy cards, in Needles, Roughs, Submerges, Pyros
g2: I lead with Mongoose. He wastes but I Stilfe, but hen I fetch and now HE Stifles. To my defense: he didn't play Stifle in his deck during last tournaments, so it wasn't my fault to fall into his trap.. A Waste-Stifle-Pierce-Daze sequence resolves with me winning the exchange, but this was my swan song, as my previous Submerge was REBed, so I just lose to Goyf in few turns.
sb: in some Dazes, out Roughs (he doesn't play any other x/1-2 creatures than DRS).
g3: His Delver gets FBed, then he Wastes my Land. I play Mongoose, but he gets himself two Goyfs and two Wastalends. DRS was hit by Bolt and I gangblock Goyf with two Mongooses. Time is called. I play Goyf to stop the beats but he has Submerge but so do I, so we durdle until it's a draw.
Draw. With some codswallop from the opposite side of table.
No offense, dude, but I simply don't care of the "I was in the winning opsition, so you should concede". Next time use your winning position and simply... win. Also, why I should I be concerned of your decks floating around that may bring you money from prizes-split. It's nice that you have this business project, but I once again don't care of it, I came here to play.


Round 4, Jay (Omnitell? not really..) with UGB(r?)
I' was too lazy and disgusted to write the notes, and I'm disgusted even now, so I just share my yesterday's paper:

g1:
19 ................19
....................Delver
FB Delver........
....................Mongoose
fetch.............Stifle (Pierced)
....................Waste
Goyf..............Goyf
....................Waste
8...................18
.....................Decay->Goyf
Loss

sb: blah,blah

19.................18
.....................DRS
.....................DRS
17..................18
15
13
9
7
5
2
Loss


Number of Wastes played: immense
Number of Goyfs resolved: huge
Number of DRS killed: insane.

tl;dr: Awful experience. That's the exact reason why I'm more and more incilined to quit completely. I've spent hours been frustrated, while my gorgeous Persian wife was home alone... :rolleyes:
I'm not even sure if I'll visit the Saturdays Legacy, but if I'll do, I hope that a) it'll be no greater than a six-rounder without TopX and b) that the changes (2 Snares instead of Pirces) will help.

[Tombstalker]

Damn thats rough you stared into a mirror all. day. long. Except your evil mirror twins brought decays to a knife fight... cheaters.

also this is hilarious:

Goblin Necropotence brought me a card or two before I kill it.

[Dzra]

The information that Probe can grant really shouldn't be overlooked. The problem I have with Probe though is that this deck often relies on Brainstorm/Ponder to find what it needs to stay ahead. Mathematically, Probe is a wash in that it replaces itself. However, it doesn't just replace itself with a random card; it replaces itself with the next card down.

Let's say you are Pondering and looking for something relevant to your matchup and position. If you see a Probe in your top three, it is a dud. The fact that it represents -1 card in your deck means nothing. It is both worse than another cantrip that can dig deeper and worse than whatever you were actually searching for. Rather than seeing a live card that you can evaluate, you might as well be looking at a Swamp.

It seems to me that the slot would be better filled with live cards, so that when you see them off cantrips, you can actually make an informed decision on whether this card will help you or not. The telepathy can be relevant occasionally, but I'd go so far as saying that even Preordains would be more useful to the deck's plan.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

It seems to me that the slot would be better filled with live cards, so that when you see them off cantrips, you can actually make an informed decision on whether this card will help you or not. The telepathy can be relevant occasionally, but I'd go so far as saying that even Preordains would be more useful to the deck's plan.

Yes, this is exactly what I thnk about Probe. I'd rather have more burn or counters than an unreliable "Joker" card.

[Dzra]

Yes, this is exactly what I thnk about Probe. I'd rather have more burn or counters than an unreliable "Joker" card.

Drawn off the top, it is fine (effectively it doesn't exist). Seen off a Ponder or Brainstorm, it represents one of two cards that you don't want. It isn't that it is unreliable; more that it makes your cantrips slightly worse at sculpting your hand. Even Thought Scour was better in that it bins the two cards you didn't want before giving you your card.

[Barbed Blightning]

Yes, this is exactly what I thnk about Probe. I'd rather have more burn or counters than an unreliable "Joker" card.

Agreed. I like 2-2-2 pierce, snare, forked bolt.

My buddy is convinced that tarfire is better than forked, however, since it can eot kill DRS (as opposed to main phase) and has marginal value by pumping tarmogoyf.

I'm undecided on it, as I like forked bolt's 2-for-1 nature, especially vs weenie decks. Thoughts?

[Milen]

My buddy is convinced that tarfire is better than forked, however, since it can eot kill DRS (as opposed to main phase) and has marginal value by pumping tarmogoyf.

I'm undecided on it, as I like forked bolt's 2-for-1 nature, especially vs weenie decks. Thoughts?

From the start i really like Fire Bolt it make perfect sense kill two for one, awesome. However, vs eleves that rarely happens as they can usually bounce at least one of the guys you are targeting, especially during your turn. Tarfire can be done during end of their turn when they have exhausted all bounces. Vs WW it is not as good as you could mostly kill two targets with Forked Bolt. But vs WW you have Sulfur Elemental which almost shuts down all their creatures.
I am not sure but I think the simple fact that it is an instant makes it so much better.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Why not go a 1/1 split on Tarfire and Forked Bolt? RUG Thresh (before Delver) used to run a 1/1 split of Rushing River and Wipe Away, and in my humble opinion, was good. They serve slightly different purposes, but still on the same line, just like the two bounce spells. In this way, though, they both serve to pump goyf (which was a point in F. Bolt's favor when it was first considered).

-ABC

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Iwanted to test Tarfire, but I really like the split dmg of FB and really dislike the possibility of pumping opposing Goyf(s).
Maybe I'll try them.

[CaptainTwiddle]

Drawn off the top, it is fine (effectively it doesn't exist). Seen off a Ponder or Brainstorm, it represents one of two cards that you don't want. It isn't that it is unreliable; more that it makes your cantrips slightly worse at sculpting your hand. Even Thought Scour was better in that it bins the two cards you didn't want before giving you your card.

Gitaxian Probe is somewhat disheartening when you see it off of a Ponder, but the flip side is that if you have one in your hand it allows you to make plays like Ponder stacking a land that you'd like to grab, a spell that you need (e.g. Lightning Bolt) and X. Draw the land, play your Probe from hand and draw the value spell (obviously, this order can be reversed), assuming the land you grabbed was a fetch, you can crack it to get rid of the 3rd card seen from the Ponder.

In summation, Probe is not an all star card outside of Storm decks, but it adds small amounts of value is several different ways. Personally, I think it deserves 2-3 slots in RUG Delver.

[poxy14]

4 RUG made it on the top8 yesterday in a 40man tourney...
I placed 12th (4-2) using the probeless/snareless built with 7removal main (4LB,2FB,1DIS) coz the meta here is FAIR, lots of mav,jund,bug,dnt....
SB = 3 subs, 1grip, 1grudge, 1pyroclasm, 1rough, 2surgicals, 2rebs, 1vortex, 2pithing needles (THANKS to BED DECKS!) and another dismember...

G1 = BURN
I was able to counter 3 Pops, and somehow before the pairing started, i switched back boarding my other dismember and replacing it with my 2nd Forked...
helped me a lot vs resolved lavamen..Goyfs ang Geese do serve great clock/wall vs this deck.
1 - 0 (2-0)

G2 = RUG (Jacky, made top8, with gitaxian less/2snares main)
Very good player, and we we're discussing things before the tourney started on how to sideboard well. this guy is very consistent, havine made numerous top8's with RUG the past tourneys..i wasnt expecting him boarding me roughs, he told me they were for goose..i thought u need to clear the gy first, and that's why there 2 crypts too, very clever...i just usually side out fows/pierces for surgicals (i love cutting them off from their colors, usual 3 subs and rebs..
1 - 1 (0-2)

G3 = GOBS
game 1 was easy as i was able to waste his port and drawn 2 forks, he wasnt able to establish his board...
game 2 was fast after he was able to establish a lackey with 1 lander and vial..he over committed his crits, coz that's really their gameplay, waited for him to unload his handfull of crits and at almost lethal, when he waste my lone red volc, i was able to stifle it and drawn pyro that i arranged on top from a ponder..goyfs and insects came to finish him off after wrath..

2 - 1 (2-0)

G4 = RUG (teammate Renz)
this time my sb worked well as i was able to draw 3 submerges and established goyfs vs his mongeese
3-1 (2-0)

G5 = OMNITELL = (teammate kitz)
i have a very good streak versus this archetype, was like 10+ and im very confident against this deck..
well, we reached game 3 after me getting game1...was long game with him on just 2 petals, he kept a very good hand and decided to go after thinking it for a long time, i didnt established a good clock with me drawing volcs, followed up with 2 wastes after mulliganing to already6...i surgicalled him early game (brainstorm) and saw, he can go off by just drawing a single land, he has lots of counters too..so i cant cast my delver and not be able to fire off my pyro when he combos off...we battled through on resolving defense grid, which resolves...and i topdecked a trop and was able to grip it on my turn with a daze backup, if he still were to off..he casts show which i dazed ofcourse, but he told me he was able to draw on that turn another fow (pitching omni) to go for the win! streak over!
3-2 (1-2)

G6 = UWR miracles (teammate erickson)
pithing needles (thanks bed decks!) did heavy lifting for my stifles, by pithing flooded strands and a resolved top...i was able to use lots of my stifles on RIP triggers and other fetches for him not to stabilize his mana, was able to resolve too a vortex mid game ftw!

Just short of the top 8, but i was satisfied with the result...
will be testing a revised SB next week. thanks guys for your time : )

[blindspotxxx]

4 RUG made it on the top8 yesterday in a 40man tourney...
I placed 12th (4-2) using the probeless/snareless built with 7removal main (4LB,2FB,1DIS) coz the meta here is FAIR, lots of mav,jund,bug,dnt....
SB = 3 subs, 1grip, 1grudge, 1pyroclasm, 1rough, 2surgicals, 2rebs, 1vortex, 2pithing needles (THANKS to BED DECKS!) and another dismember...

G1 = BURN
I was able to counter 3 Pops, and somehow before the pairing started, i switched back boarding my other dismember and replacing it with my 2nd Forked...
helped me a lot vs resolved lavamen..Goyfs ang Geese do serve great clock/wall vs this deck.
1 - 0 (2-0)

G2 = RUG (Jacky, made top8, with gitaxian less/2snares main)
Very good player, and we we're discussing things before the tourney started on how to sideboard well. this guy is very consistent, havine made numerous top8's with RUG the past tourneys..i wasnt expecting him boarding me roughs, he told me they were for goose..i thought u need to clear the gy first, and that's why there 2 crypts too, very clever...i just usually side out fows/pierces for surgicals (i love cutting them off from their colors, usual 3 subs and rebs..
1 - 1 (0-2)

G3 = GOBS
game 1 was easy as i was able to waste his port and drawn 2 forks, he wasnt able to establish his board...
game 2 was fast after he was able to establish a lackey with 1 lander and vial..he over committed his crits, coz that's really their gameplay, waited for him to unload his handfull of crits and at almost lethal, when he waste my lone red volc, i was able to stifle it and drawn pyro that i arranged on top from a ponder..goyfs and insects came to finish him off after wrath..

2 - 1 (2-0)

G4 = RUG (teammate Renz)
this time my sb worked well as i was able to draw 3 submerges and established goyfs vs his mongeese
3-1 (2-0)

G5 = OMNITELL = (teammate kitz)
i have a very good streak versus this archetype, was like 10+ and im very confident against this deck..
well, we reached game 3 after me getting game1...was long game with him on just 2 petals, he kept a very good hand and decided to go after thinking it for a long time, i didnt established a good clock with me drawing volcs, followed up with 2 wastes after mulliganing to already6...i surgicalled him early game (brainstorm) and saw, he can go off by just drawing a single land, he has lots of counters too..so i cant cast my delver and not be able to fire off my pyro when he combos off...we battled through on resolving defense grid, which resolves...and i topdecked a trop and was able to grip it on my turn with a daze backup, if he still were to off..he casts show which i dazed ofcourse, but he told me he was able to draw on that turn another fow (pitching omni) to go for the win! streak over!
3-2 (1-2)

G6 = UWR miracles (teammate erickson)
pithing needles (thanks bed decks!) did heavy lifting for my stifles, by pithing flooded strands and a resolved top...i was able to use lots of my stifles on RIP triggers and other fetches for him not to stabilize his mana, was able to resolve too a vortex mid game ftw!

Just short of the top 8, but i was satisfied with the result...
will be testing a revised SB next week. thanks guys for your time : )

It's the dawn of the RUG here in our place lol Great and short report :) Jacky was also my only loss

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Nice read, and I'm really gald I was helpful. I like Needle, it's really versatile and especially against DRS based decks it makes wonders. Im a bit surprised you played it against UWR fetches, although Needling the fetches was an old but solid tactic. Just that ZEN fetches made it a bit unreliable. :)
I also thought about bringing in Roughs in the mirror, as it's the only way how to handle opposing Mongoose. Sadly there's just a short window to kill the Delver, it does nothing against Goyf and cannot kil threshed Mongoose unless used in conjunction with Crypt which I hesitate to board, as the modern Thresh decks are not based on their namesake mechanic like they were in Mongoose + Werebear + Mystic Enforcer/Fledgling Dragon era.
Weren't the two Dismembers too hurtful? I thnk that you may easily switch one of them with Mind Harness as the most usual targets are DRS, Goyf and Kotr/Confidant; yes, the latter can't be stolen as it's black, but the other ones are solid enough: DRS may pay for himself and the other two kill fast. Otoh, not been able to kill the other targets (Germ, Tombstalker, Grunt, the already mentioned Confidant, w/e else) might be enough to move the Harness to "potential sb cards" box.

[poxy14]

Weren't the two Dismembers too hurtful? I thnk that you may easily switch one of them with Mind Harness

i did replace the last dismember to a forked and moved it to the SB slot...2 would really be hurtful..when youre facing a clock, even removing a good target would made them closer to the finish line..i'll be taking out that last DISM for another GY hate i guess..

@blindspotxxx: hope u can share your success here, i assume ur one of the top8's yesterday but wasnt able to meet u, 4RUGs inside! though i didnt make the cut, i was happy seeing the archetype i play blasted with force through a very healthy meta of fair and unfair decks!

[blindspotxxx]

i did replace the last dismember to a forked and moved it to the SB slot...2 would really be hurtful..when youre facing a clock, even removing a good target would made them closer to the finish line..i'll be taking out that last DISM for another GY hate i guess..

@blindspotxxx: hope u can share your success here, i assume ur one of the top8's yesterday but wasnt able to meet u, 4RUGs inside! though i didnt make the cut, i was happy seeing the archetype i play blasted with force through a very healthy meta of fair and unfair decks!

What do you mean meet? lol It's me Chris the guy with the Foil Preordain that has a poor condition. I will post a report tonight.

[sherko7]

It's the dawn of the RUG here in our place lol Great and short report :) Jacky was also my only loss

Was one of the 4 RUG's who made top 8. Was planning to play BURG (the deck I lost to in the Top 8) but I still needed a few cards, and I was able to borrow pieces for RUG so why not lol. This deck is too fun (my first time!). Might consider not building BURG and instead focus on RUG... :laugh:

My 1 loss was to Shardless BUG. When we can get a clock in and disrupt their mana, we're good. But when we give them room a wee bit room to play some bombs we're dead. Goyf is lackluster in this matchup. Need more Goose!

P.S. I played 8 fetches, 3 Trops, 2 Volcs and 1 Island because my friend left the Volc I was planning to borrow. Did help me at least once when my opponent almost loam locked me. :laugh:

[Barbed Blightning]

Was one of the 4 RUG's who made top 8. Was planning to play BURG (the deck I lost to in the Top 8) but I still needed a few cards, and I was able to borrow pieces for RUG so why not lol. This deck is too fun (my first time!). Might consider not building BURG and instead focus on RUG... :laugh:

My 1 loss was to Shardless BUG. When we can get a clock in and disrupt their mana, we're good. But when we give them room a wee bit room to play some bombs we're dead. Goyf is lackluster in this matchup. Need more Goose!

P.S. I played 8 fetches, 3 Trops, 2 Volcs and 1 Island because my friend left the Volc I was planning to borrow. Did help me at least once when my opponent almost loam locked me. :laugh:

I will say this about RUG vs BURG: it's a hell of a lot more consistent. Your topdecks are almost always amazing and you never need to build up to anything; two, maybe three lands is optimal.

Was the single basic anything worth looking into?

[sherko7]

I will say this about RUG vs BURG: it's a hell of a lot more consistent. Your topdecks are almost always amazing and you never need to build up to anything; two, maybe three lands is optimal.

Was the single basic anything worth looking into?

Unless you just wanna save up on a few dollars then I don't think its worth looking into. Steam Vents could have been better but I didn't have time to look for one just minutes before round 1 started. I was lucky enough that it was the Volcs and not the Trops that I lacked. :laugh:

[trollking21]

From italian site
Swan Song.
Cc - U
Type - Instant
Text - Counter target enchantment, instant, or sorcery spell. Its controller puts a Bird Token 2/2 with flying onto the battlefield under his control.

Sideboard maybe?
Just figured I'd let ever mull over the new card

[Star|Scream]

Edited. May need to rethink this.

[Barbed Blightning]

From italian site
Swan Song.
Cc - U
Type - Instant
Text - Counter target enchantment, instant, or sorcery spell. Its controller puts a Bird Token 2/2 with flying onto the battlefield under his control.

Sideboard maybe?
Just figured I'd let ever mull over the new card

Better a 2/2 than a 15/15 I suppose. Not like 2/3 of our beaters couldn't handle a 2/2. Plus, kills sneak attack

[Blaze22]

From italian site
Swan Song.
Cc - U
Type - Instant
Text - Counter target enchantment, instant, or sorcery spell. Its controller puts a Bird Token 2/2 with flying onto the battlefield under his control.

Sideboard maybe?
Just figured I'd let ever mull over the new card

this could be a nice sidebord card! the fact that it can be used on your own spells makes the cut here. like: eot bolt shaman, opponent pierces, you swan your own bolt to get 2/2 flying instant speed, pretty nice.


other than that, I would like to share my experience with a rarely seen sb card: Compost
it was so amazing in my testing, I played 2 in side, boarding it in vs everything with black cards.

once vs jund I set up an incredible turn in which i killed 2 shaman and a confidant with a rough//tumble, drawing 3 cards off of it. nice thoughtseize dude, lose 2 life and let me draw 1. hymn to tourach? not that bad anymore. shaman? bolt it and get the bounty on his head! decay my goyf? I'll dig deeper. decay my compost? well, my other creatures will swing for the win!
And it did pretty well against the varous bug lists out there, not to mention it's SUPERB against storm, reanimator and pox variants! wanna talk about dredge matchup? nah that's just hilarous :p

I definitely think I will keep them in, at least as long as black is a common choice of this meta. what do you think about this?

[Barbed Blightning]

I tested compost in BURG. It was siiiick.

I actually like it in RUG, too. Killing a Bob or DRS and getting paid for it? Nice.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I already thought about Compost but haven't found enough slots. If I'd play it, I'd use two of them, because as a one of, Sylvan Library seems better. But what to cut from sb is quite hard. Maybe I'll get rid of the grave hate...

[Qtc]

http://mythicspoiler.com/ths/cards/demonheartchimera.jpg

So what do you think? Is this good enough to find a spot for?
I don't think we can cut anything else but Goyfs for it..
The problem with this card is its 3 mana cmc, which is a lot in Thresh and its 3 toughness, keeping him within Lightning Bolt range.

[thefreakaccident]

The card is so good, yet so bad because of bolt. You can't ignore the possibility of it sealing the game in a turn or two in the late game though. I might consider running a miser when it comes out.

[Isre Morn]

http://mythicspoiler.com/ths/cards/demonheartchimera.jpg

So what do you think? Is this good enough to find a spot for?
I don't think we can cut anything else but Goyfs for it..
The problem with this card is its 3 mana cmc, which is a lot in Thresh and its 3 toughness, keeping him within Lightning Bolt range.

Powerhouse-Card for UR-Delver, which is being pimped a lot atm (nivmagus elemental, young pyromancer).

Don't think it fits RUG boards correctly with that vulnerable mana base and - yeah - bolt range. But hey, think of the life gain from swords ;P

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Interesting. But is it more powerful than Clique? Which in fact doesn't even see play, at least main?

[Isre Morn]

In Comparison (1 to 1) Clique is the more powerful Card (Flash/Hand Disruption/UU Cost better to handle as RU) for RUG. Chimera is pure Beater dependent from YOUR grave, Clique is more a tactical metachoice option. Not for free Clique has its legendary Status. I dont think Chimera will beat goyf in its beating position (dependent from ALL graveyards, grows faster, easier/faster to cast, allrounder). Chimera has its weakness in defense (bolt range).

[Bed Decks Palyer]

In Comparison (1 to 1) Clique is the more powerful Card (Flash/Hand Disruption/UU Cost better to handle as RU) for RUG. Chimera is pure Beater dependent from YOUR grave, Clique is more a tactical metachoice option. Not for free Clique has its legendary Status. I dont think Chimera will beat goyf in its beating position (dependent from ALL graveyards, grows faster, easier/faster to cast, allrounder). Chimera has its weakness in defense (bolt range).
Also, Chimera is affected by the exact cards that already hurt us (RiP, Relic) and is pretty bad in a 18_lands.dec full of Wastes. UR Delver, on the other hand...

[Isre Morn]

It's more a card made for UR Delver - not RUG Delver. That's it.

UR mostly has 18 lands as rug but One color less and so basics that survive through wastes. Easier to cast for them. More consistent.

[poxy14]

http://mythicspoiler.com/ths/cards/demonheartchimera.jpg

if u only this guy has FLASH instead of TRAMPLE...then i might consider it, doesnt need trample anymore coz it's flying!
wont be able to replace goyf in RUG, and will be second still before Cliq...

@SWANSONG: pierce would be better still, that it'll be able to counter artifacts and planeswalkers...but countering my own spell for a 2/2 flyer would make my delvers happy, added clock to a threat light deck we currently have.

[Barbed Blightning]

Two-for-oneing ourselves for a wind drake? Ehhhhh I don't know. I'd use it as a 1-2 of at most vs combo. Pierce would still stay in the main as a 2-3 of

[Isre Morn]

if u only this guy has FLASH instead of TRAMPLE...


Haha, yeah and HASTE :D

Swansong could be a relevant SB card for combo and miracles (definately replaces envelop here).

[Pherion]

http://mythicspoiler.com/ths/cards/demonheartchimera.jpg

if u only this guy has FLASH instead of TRAMPLE...then i might consider it, doesnt need trample anymore coz it's flying!
wont be able to replace goyf in RUG, and will be second still before Cliq...

@SWANSONG: pierce would be better still, that it'll be able to counter artifacts and planeswalkers...but countering my own spell for a 2/2 flyer would make my delvers happy, added clock to a threat light deck we currently have.

And suddenly Relic of Progenitus, Nihil Spellbomb, Leyline of the Void and such get better and better :( I think the last thing RUG needs is more suseptability to graveyard hate. And especially not at 3 CMC.

It's cute at best, but I feel like it's got to be very powerful to make the cut into RUG.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

And suddenly Relic of Progenitus, Nihil Spellbomb, Leyline of the Void and such get better and better :( I think the last thing RUG needs is more suseptability to graveyard hate. And especially not at 3 CMC.

It's cute at best, but I feel like it's got to be very powerful to make the cut into RUG.

Yep. Sad.
Defimnitely a card for UR Delver, but I won't use it in Thresh. But it's nice to have one more Legacy playable card! :)

[DragoFireheart]

That Swan counterspell is trash. Just stick to pierce and flusterstorm.

[Barbed Blightning]

That Swan counterspell is trash. Just stick to pierce and flusterstorm.

Well, no, it's a cheap, versatile hard counter with a slight downside. I think it at least deserves some testing

[DragoFireheart]

Well, no, it's a cheap, versatile hard counter with a slight downside. I think it at least deserves some testing

If by slight downside you mean being able to kill one of our best creatures easily then sure, I agree.

How many situations do you have where Spell Pierce can't counter what you want?

[Barbed Blightning]

The Sol lands that Sneak runs?

EDIT: for that matter, I'm not talking about cutting spell pierce. I'm talking about cutting 1-2 flusterstorm in the SB

[Star|Scream]

If by slight downside you mean being able to kill one of our best creatures easily then sure, I agree.

How many situations do you have where Spell Pierce can't counter what you want?

Nic Fit? Miracles?

[DragoFireheart]

The Sol lands that Sneak runs?

EDIT: for that matter, I'm not talking about cutting spell pierce. I'm talking about cutting 1-2 flusterstorm in the SB

Oh, sideboard?

I thought we were talking maindeck. My bad. In that case then yes, unless you feel we really need Flusterstorm for Storm decks.

[Manipulato]

Hi Guys,

yesterday i played a small turney in our local shop and went 4:1 with RUG Delver.
Here the Top 4 Decks (I went 2nd) and a small report.

http://mtgdecks.net/events/view/11292

Round 1: Omni-Tell

Here I won 2:0 easily
In: +1 Spell Pierce + 2 REB + 1 Surgical Extraction
Out: - 2 Forked Bolt - 2 Spell Snare

Round 2: Death & Taxes

Here I won 2:0 again
In: + 2 Sulfur Elemental + 2 Ancient Grudge + 2 Rough/Tumble
Out: -4 Stifle -1 Spell Pierce -1 Force of Will

Round 3: Elves

I lost 1:2
Game 1: I mulled to 6 and kept a average hand and got punished by him turn 4.
Game 2: I crushed him with Rough/Tumble, Bolt + pressure.
Game 3: We both mulled to 6 and kept disrupting hands. My starting hand was Cage, Pierce, Daze, Mongoose, Waste & Fetch. He played 1st & 2nd turn Thoughtseize on my cage + pierce. I cant counter it because he was otp. After that i never saw a ponder, brainstorm, bolt, rough, delver, or ANYTHING relevant.
My draws were just 2 daze´s, tropical´s & monoose´s. 1 turn after my mongoose´s became 3/3 he played Ooze and finally killed me with his 3 lifepoints and a progenitus in the times :mad:

In: +2 Rough/ Tumble +3 Submerge +2 Grafdigger´s Cage
Out: -4 Stifle -2 Spell Snare -1 Pierce

Round 4: Mono R Burn

Here I won 2:0 easily again
In: +1 Spell Pierce
Out: -1 Stifle

Round 5: BR Burn/Random (With Bob, Lavamancer, PoP, Bolt, Vexing Devil etc...)

Won 2:0 again
In: +1 Spell Pierce
Out: -1 Stifle

Finally a 4:1 with the unlucky los against elves. The elves man lost 0:2 in Round 5 against Grixis Tempo but he was a friend and gave him a draw so he got 1st :rolleyes:
So I picked a Foil Grove of the Burnwillows.

I played the deck the 1st time and were very satisfied with the deck. The 3 Goyfs were quiet good, I never missed a creature to make more pressure. The 2 Snare´s in the main were good too, they countered Thalia, Bob, PoP and Hymn...
Normally i would play 1 or 2 fluster storm in the sb and maybe a 1/1 split main with dismember/forked bolt but tried this variant for our local meta.

Greetings

[Dzra]

EDIT: for that matter, I'm not talking about cutting spell pierce. I'm talking about cutting 1-2 flusterstorm in the SB

Except for countering Enchantments though, Flusterstorm is just better in every way. Most times where you'd want either of these, Flusterstorm is even more of a "hard counter" in that they cannot counter it back except with another Flusterstorm.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

@ Manipulato: Congrats! Nice reslt and nice prize.
Btw, you must really hate D&T. :smile:

[Barbed Blightning]

Except for countering Enchantments though, Flusterstorm is just better in every way. Most times where you'd want either of these, Flusterstorm is even more of a "hard counter" in that they cannot counter it back except with another Flusterstorm.

Uhhhh all right. A hard counter, by definition, cannot be paid off. Fluster is just conditionally better.

If I had a choice of swan song or flusterstorm as my only card in hand against a late game show and tell or sneak, I'd choose song.

[Dzra]

Uhhhh all right. A hard counter, by definition, cannot be paid off. Fluster is just conditionally better.

They are both better than the other given certain conditions. If your opponent is casting an Instant or Sorcery and the number of spells cast that turn is equal or greater than the amount of available mana that they have open then Flusterstorm is better. Otherwise, or if they cast an Enchantment, then sure Swan Song can be better. Although, this still doesn't take into account that you are most likely racing them and that giving them a blocker that either kills Delver or buys them a turn against Goyf/Mongoose is actually relevant.

[Barbed Blightning]

Depends on the type of combo. Against storm and Belcher, fluster is the obvious choice, as those archetypes rely on chaining spells. Against S&T or Reanimator, however, they are just trying to resolve a single, bombastic spell. Here Song is much better since they either have the mana up for a 2-count fluster or cast an enchantment.

Where song gets even better is the control match. Will I trade a RIP, Counterbalance or Moat for a 2/2 delver killer? Of course.

Not to mention it gives us some extra hate vs the odd enchantress matchup.

[Mr. Crane]

Hi Guys,


Round 2: Death & Taxes

Here I won 2:0 again
In: + 2 Sulfur Elemental + 2 Ancient Grudge + 2 Rough/Tumble
Out: -4 Stifle -1 Spell Pierce -1 Force of Will

Round 3: Elves

I lost 1:2
Game 1: I mulled to 6 and kept a average hand and got punished by him turn 4.
Game 2: I crushed him with Rough/Tumble, Bolt + pressure.
Game 3: We both mulled to 6 and kept disrupting hands. My starting hand was Cage, Pierce, Daze, Mongoose, Waste & Fetch. He played 1st & 2nd turn Thoughtseize on my cage + pierce. I cant counter it because he was otp. After that i never saw a ponder, brainstorm, bolt, rough, delver, or ANYTHING relevant.
My draws were just 2 daze´s, tropical´s & monoose´s. 1 turn after my mongoose´s became 3/3 he played Ooze and finally killed me with his 3 lifepoints and a progenitus in the times :mad:

In: +2 Rough/ Tumble +3 Submerge +2 Grafdigger´s Cage
Out: -4 Stifle -2 Spell Snare -1 Pierce
Greetings

first, congratz.

Sideout stifle against death and taxes? Im like this card in this matchup, he´s have: wasteland, trickplays(mangara etc.), mother of runes, stoneforge and batterskull, sometimes against equips, rip or relic from sideboard. Your list have 29 blue spells, pos board with your plan d you have 23. Im like keep 2 or 3 stifles, maybe 4 if im know about multiples rip/relic. Im like cut more fows and pierces.

Against elves, stifle for behemont and small interactions (wirewood, rangers), cutting few creatures(mongoose), what you think about this plan?

tnx

[Quasim0ff]

Uhhhh all right. A hard counter, by definition, cannot be paid off. Fluster is just conditionally better.

If I had a choice of swan song or flusterstorm as my only card in hand against a late game show and tell or sneak, I'd choose song.
If you ONLY have flusterstorm in lategame vs SnT you're doing it wrong.

If the SnT goes for it without any protection, he is also doing it wrong.

The ONLY reason I'd want swan song vs SnT is of they are on Sneak Attack/Dream Halls plan. Flusterstorm is just bad vs those cards, but you should have counters for these, which means flusterstorm is still better.

[Barbed Blightning]

If you ONLY have flusterstorm in lategame vs SnT you're doing it wrong.

If the SnT goes for it without any protection, he is also doing it wrong.

The ONLY reason I'd want swan song vs SnT is of they are on Sneak Attack/Dream Halls plan. Flusterstorm is just bad vs those cards, but you should have counters for these, which means flusterstorm is still better.

I didn't realize we lived in a fantasy universe where S&T can never have more than one kill spell in a game. Or that RUG always triple force of will in opening hand

[catmint]

http://mythicspoiler.com/ths/cards/demonheartchimera.jpg

So what do you think? Is this good enough to find a spot for?
I don't think we can cut anything else but Goyfs for it..
The problem with this card is its 3 mana cmc, which is a lot in Thresh and its 3 toughness, keeping him within Lightning Bolt range.

Maindeck: 100% no
I like the card a lot but the closest it comes in RUG is to replace slots like sulfuric vortex or sulfur elemental.

Comparing to vortex:
Both 3cmc sorcery speed with chimera being easier to cast and pitchable (although some of the decks you want vortex in you side out FoW). Chimera ends the game much faster and is less conditional in case the opponent has a clock / is in front on life total, which current esper decks are more capable of than in the past. Vortex is much harder to get rid off, which is the whole purpose if you want to play this card.

Comparing to elemental:
Flash is a big deal - much more important than bein pitchable.
Vs. esper: Killing lingering souls or not does not matter that much if you trample over. However if chimera is killed and the souls token live, it sucks. The body of chimera compared to elemental makes up for it.
Vs. D&T: I think here is nail in the coffin for the chimera. The utility of killing the annoying creatures is way more important than the big body. Especially because D&T has 3 power flyers flickerwisp and sometimes serra avenger.

So altough the card is very often an awesome 7+/3 flying, trample for 3 mana it seems not good enough for Canadian.

[Star|Scream]

I didn't realize we lived in a fantasy universe where S&T can never have more than one kill spell in a game. Or that RUG always triple force of will in opening hand

You mean you don't always have 2+ counters against turn three decks?

[Manipulato]

@ Manipulato: Congrats! Nice reslt and nice prize.
Btw, you must really hate D&T. :smile:

Well i like the deck, but not playing against it :smile:

It's a difficult MU for RUG, so I wanted to be prepared for it...
Rough/Tumble is great vs a lot type of decks (Elves, Maverick, Goblins, D&T, Stoneblade etc), Ancient Grudge is great against Raffinity, D&T, Stoneblade, Stompy Decks, Painter Combo etc and Sulfur Elemental is boss against D&T, Maverick, Lingering Souls (which are difficult MU/cards to handle).

So why not playing them as a 2 of in the SB? They help you in bad MU so I want to draw them...

Greetings

[Manipulato]

first, congratz.

Sideout stifle against death and taxes? Im like this card in this matchup, he´s have: wasteland, trickplays(mangara etc.), mother of runes, stoneforge and batterskull, sometimes against equips, rip or relic from sideboard. Your list have 29 blue spells, pos board with your plan d you have 23. Im like keep 2 or 3 stifles, maybe 4 if im know about multiples rip/relic. Im like cut more fows and pierces.

Against elves, stifle for behemont and small interactions (wirewood, rangers), cutting few creatures(mongoose), what you think about this plan?

tnx

Well, it was my 1st time playing this deck so Im not 100 % sure about the perfect boarding plans but I wanted to have at least 2 Pierce in the main to counter Sword->Delver, RIP (because 4 mana is hard to get around for him)or Aether Vial... Force is important OTD because of Vial... Spell Snare is a good Hardcounter for SFM & Thalia...
Sure Stifle is not a bad card in that MU but I had 6 Bombs to bring in and Stifle OTD is not that super good.
Maybe Out: 3 FOW, 2 Stifle, 1 Pierce
Ancient Grudge takes care of vial so maybe your right to board out more FoW, but Pierce is still quiet good I think.

Against Elves, I were 2 times OTD so stifle became a lot worse, sure you can stifle the behemot trigger but he killed me with Progenitus & Ooze :laugh:
But in general I think your right that 2 Stifles should be in because you can press the last points of damage after the attack of the elvman or sometimes catch a 2nd turn fetch or something but what to cut?? Drop Mongoose to 2, hmm I'm not happy with that because its all about pressure a( and I play only 3 Goyf MD, so).


Greetings

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Honestly, Mongoose doesn't press anything anywhere against Elves, esp. if they board Relic or you must play fast Rough. You need to drop&flip Delver asap...

EDIT:
So, I decided to sell everything except RUG. (I may keep cards for the Next Level RUG or however is the deck with Vexing Sphinx called.) Is there any Canadian Thresh checklist? I mean, I know I have to keep my Volcs, but especially the sideboard choices are so many, that I don't want to miss anything...

[Barbed Blightning]

Honestly, Mongoose doesn't press anything anywhere against Elves, esp. if they board Relic or you must play fast Rough. You need to drop&flip Delver asap...

EDIT:
So, I decided to sell everything except RUG. (I may keep cards for the Next Level RUG or however is the deck with Vexing Sphinx called.) Is there any Canadian Thresh checklist? I mean, I know I have to keep my Volcs, but especially the sideboard choices are so many, that I don't want to miss anything...

Expensive stuff would be loam, flusterstorm, library and ooze. Everything else is a few bucks or less.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Expensive stuff would be loam, flusterstorm, library and ooze. Everything else is a few bucks or less.
I'm not sure if I expressed myself well. I meant: is there a complete and exhaustive list of all reasonable card that one should own if he wants to have a Can Thresh available? Once I mothball my collection (or better said: my RUG) I don't wanna miss anything as I hate when I need to borrow anything.

[wcm8]

I'm not sure if I expressed myself well. I meant: is there a complete and exhaustive list of all reasonable card that one should own if he wants to have a Can Thresh available? Once I mothball my collection (or better said: my RUG) I don't wanna miss anything as I hate when I need to borrow anything.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13715-DTB-Canadian-Thresh-(a-k-a-RUG-Tempo-Tempo-Thresh)&p=719056&viewfull=1#post719056

[Bed Decks Palyer]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13715-DTB-Canadian-Thresh-(a-k-a-RUG-Tempo-Tempo-Thresh)&p=719056&viewfull=1#post719056

Wow. I knew that somewhere in the dark corners of my mind there was hidden the knowledge of this brilliant post of yours! Thanks!

[Milen]

Well, it was my 1st time playing this deck so Im not 100 % sure about the perfect boarding plans but I wanted to have at least 2 Pierce in the main to counter Sword->Delver, RIP (because 4 mana is hard to get around for him)or Aether Vial... Force is important OTD because of Vial... Spell Snare is a good Hardcounter for SFM & Thalia...
Sure Stifle is not a bad card in that MU but I had 6 Bombs to bring in and Stifle OTD is not that super good.
Maybe Out: 3 FOW, 2 Stifle, 1 Pierce
Ancient Grudge takes care of vial so maybe your right to board out more FoW, but Pierce is still quiet good I think.


Vs RiP you can stifle the comes into play trigger. If they dont play it super fast you might have all the graveyard that you will ever need. Most likely they are not playing more graveyard hate than RiP.
Just a trick that you should be aware when playing RUG.

[poxy14]

as i was sorting through old pile of cards, i saw this old instant....i pondered through, and i think it has alot of advantages on our deck..

Card Name: Reality Ripple
Mana Cost: 1Blue
Converted Mana Cost: 2

Types: Instant
Card Text: Target artifact, creature, or land phases out.
(While it's phased out, it's treated as though it doesn't exist. It phases in before its controller untaps during his or her next untap step.)

it is blue (fow), it protects our most valuable delvers/goyfs to just about ANYTHING...verdicts, lilis, jace's bounce triggers, abrupt decays, terminus, etc....
and somehow can be very useful too on phasing out equipments (instantly kills a batterskull germ token if u phase out the equipment), maze of ith, kotrs, tombstalkers, wurmcoils, chalices that are usually set to 1 that wrecks us, there might be more...

2cc spell is a thing to consider, but we're still able to drop bombs like sulfur elementals, vortex or grips...

what do u guys think?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

as i was sorting through old pile of cards, i saw this old instant....i pondered through, and i think it has alot of advantages on our deck..

Card Name: Reality Ripple
Mana Cost: 1Blue
Converted Mana Cost: 2

Types: Instant
Card Text: Target artifact, creature, or land phases out.
(While it's phased out, it's treated as though it doesn't exist. It phases in before its controller untaps during his or her next untap step.)

it is blue (fow), it protects our most valuable delvers/goyfs to just about ANYTHING...verdicts, lilis, jace's bounce triggers, abrupt decays, terminus, etc....
and somehow can be very useful too on phasing out equipments (instantly kills a batterskull germ token if u phase out the equipment), maze of ith, kotrs, tombstalkers, wurmcoils, chalices that are usually set to 1 that wrecks us, there might be more...

2cc spell is a thing to consider, but we're still able to drop bombs like sulfur elementals, vortex or grips...

what do u guys think?

I like how it may work both as a protection and as a Ice-like removal. It interacts with Germ token so that you may permanently get rid of BSkull, unless I'm mistaken. It's defiitely interesting card, maybe we may play it instead of one or two Submerges in Decay-heavy meta.

[Pherion]

maybe we may play it instead of one or two Submerges in Decay-heavy meta.

I'm curious as to your reasoning here. How does a 2 mana instant that flickers a card compare to a free instant that is potentialy hard removal. In addition, how is Reality Ripple better than Submerge against decay decks? Aren't they more likely to have a forest since they are casting Abrupt Decay, Deathrite Shaman, and Tarmogoyf?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I'm curious as to your reasoning here. How does a 2 mana instant that flickers a card compare to a free instant that is potentialy hard removal. In addition, how is Reality Ripple better than Submerge against decay decks? Aren't they more likely to have a forest since they are casting Abrupt Decay, Deathrite Shaman, and Tarmogoyf?
It compares that it doesn't put the saved creature on top of your library (thus losing you a card draw and - speaking of a Delver - also a flip), and in case of Liliana's activation it even makes it possible to attack with the creature on your next turn. Moreover it may flicker any other annoying permanent, be it Chalice/Trini/Lodestone, Tabernacle/Maze/Chasm, KotR/Goyf/Tombstalker/Gaddock/Germ/Anaba Grunt, it may also work like a pseudo-Ice (although it doesn't cantrip), contrary to Submerge it can be played quite easily even if the smart/unlucky opponent sits on Grove of the Burnwillows as his only green land (or doesn't even play green at all), all while completely neutering Batterskull, as the equipment remains rfged once the Germ ceases to exist.
Otoh it can't save Mongoose (but so can't Submerge), not all of the above named cards are omnipresent, it always costs :1::u: instead of alternative cc equal to zero in case of Submerge.
Is there anything else I forgot about?

Btw, feel free to experiment with other sb slots, but I doubt there's any other card than Submerge that may be switched for Reality Ripple. You want your Blasts/Flusterstorms, you need some gy hate, you need Grudge, you need sweeper/SulfEle, so it's Submerge that might be cut down to two copies and one or two RRs might be added.

In case you like the card, of course.

[Manipulato]

Vs RiP you can stifletriggermes into play trigger. If they dont play it super fast you might have all the graveyard that you will ever need. Most likely they are not playing more graveyard hate than RiP.
Just a trick that you should be aware when playing RUG.

Sure Stifle can negate SFM & Batterskull trigger or RIP trigger and is not a bad card against D&T but what to cut for it?
I had 6 great cards to put in, Spell Snare is good, Spell Pierce is good, maybe FoW...

But thanks for the advice!

[Barbed Blightning]

Sure Stifle can negate SFM & Batterskull trigger or RIP trigger and is not a bad card against D&T but what to cut for it?
I had 6 great cards to put in, Spell Snare is good, Spell Pierce is good, maybe FoW...

But thanks for the advice!

Pierce isn't great vs DnT though. They're basically mono white maverick + goblins. All you might hit it Vial, StP or RIP.

Daze is also pretty bad since they run zero fetches and thus won't be victim to our stifles. So, in boarding, I'd side out 2 pierce, 2 daze instead of stifles.

[Manipulato]

Pierce isn't great vs DnT though. They're basically mono white maverick + goblins. All you might hit it Vial, StP or RIP.

Daze is also pretty bad since they run zero fetches and thus won't be victim to our stifles. So, in boarding, I'd side out 2 pierce, 2 daze instead of stifles.

That`s the point, you hit Vial, RIP & StP (maybe sided in PtE), very important cards for them/us :wink:

I think Daze is also not pretty bad (not super great but surely not bad), they have waste, Port, cavern, Karakas & Eiganjo Castle which get hit by our wasteland, and if pierce can hit vial they must tap there mana denial lands to play a spell (and the deck have a lot of cc2/3 cards in it such as Thalia, SFM, Mirran Crusader, Aven Mindsencor, the 3/3 Angel, Phyrexian Revoker, Mangara and so on).
So Daze is good in countering them...I think it depends if were otp or otd.
Maybe Otd FoW in and Pierce/Daze out
Otp FoW out and Daze+Pierce in?

How boarded Jacob Wilson in the GP Strasbourg finals against D&T by the way :smile:

I will test next tournament...

Greetings

[Barbed Blightning]

That's why you bring in grip/grudge and keep your FoW: to guarantee you kill those spells.

EDIT: pierce also can't deal with Mom, Mirran Crusader, SFM, Thalia or Mangara--all cards we should worry about. It's a deck of about 28 creatures, like gobs/mav, so pierce basically sucks against them.

[poxy14]

it was discussed over at MTGS when i posted about REALITY RIPPLE "that phasing out the Germ token, not the Batterskull. will make the Batterskull permanently phased out and unable to come back in." (Credit: Hopo & Julian23 on MTGTheSource)

http://www.azmagicplayers.com/articles/judge-5-tricky-legacy-interactions-part-3/

and aside from numerous + for RR's application in RUG from Bed Decks...
i think i might have to consider cutting my Dismember in my MD (playing 3pierce, 2forked, 1dismember..snareless)
will test it over the next tourneys as it might be a much better topdeck than our only black removal...
same way it can save us from oppossing wastelands, upkeep phasing out sol lands when we think show.dec might go off, or probably a LED...these things we need to do to buy time to draw our impt counterspells...i also might add in 1 in our already very tight SB slot for AD meta heavy decks...in my opinion, is a much versatile card vs dismember...

this is the fun part about deck building, on how we're able to make something workout for our decks..
RUG has been so consistent for years now after the banning of misstep, and numerous expansions/cards have came and we've always been able to tweak it that's why it's still strong up to this time..

[Exuberance]

If you're playing Reality Ripple to save a guy, just play Plaxmanta instead. At least you get a guy. And Krosan Grip or whatever is a way better answer to BSkull.

In other news for RUG, I top eighted in Atlanta this past weekend. Report with decklist is here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26749-Consistently-Competent-or-Ludicrously-Lucky-Top-8-SCG-ATL), but to sum it up, I cut Gitaxian Probe and never missed it, I played seven removal spells, two Pierce, and a Snare, which were all awesome throughout the day, and I wanted two Rough // Tumble and no Sulfuric Vortex or graveyard hate.

[DragoFireheart]

If you're playing Reality Ripple to save a guy, just play Plaxmanta instead. At least you get a guy. And Krosan Grip or whatever is a way better answer to BSkull.


You can pitch Ripple to FoW and it cost one less.

[Exuberance]

You can pitch Ripple to FoW and it cost one less.

Sure, fair points. But Krosan Grip basically can't be countered. And I've never been pressured by a BSkull on turn two. I don't know. I won't knock it until I try it, but it just seems a little silly.

[Barbed Blightning]

Sure, fair points. But Krosan Grip basically can't be countered. And I've never been pressured by a BSkull on turn two. I don't know. I won't knock it until I try it, but it just seems a little silly.

I agree, it seems like running ghostly flicker. Pseudo removal.

Fire//Ice is basically better in every way. It can actually kill small creatures or weakened PWs, tap down big dudes and deny critical mana sources (the latter two also cantripping). And it pitches to FoW.

Hell, even Pongify would be better if you are just looking for dude killers. Or Vapor Snag if you want a defensive use

[poxy14]

there are really better choices for ripple when it comes to removal....
chain, dismember, f/ice, forked bolts, and on the sides we have submerges, roughs, pyroclasm, grudges, grips...etc...
but utility wise it has far more uses...i think..
- it can save our own clock (delvers/goyfs) to game-breaking uncounterable spells such as decays and verdicts...annoying terminus, lili's ang jace's activation..
we have such a limited number of threats (12 the usual), and in some games i do submerge my own crits just to keep some pressure...
- and when we're ahead it can also do what f/ice can tempo-wise by phasing out walls (just w/out the draw)...name it opposing goyfs, tombstalkers, kotrs, oozes..
- is a better removal to batterskull (when uncountered), removes entreat token on the board, can somehow deal with griselbrand vs dismember, other crits that are already equipped with plus/toughness only to be phased out (target the equipment) and be blocked...
- can EoT phase out Cotv (vs us is usually set @ 1) to cast LOTS of our very impt 1cc spells..
- saves our own lands to wastelands. phase out another dual to atleast save 2 more damage vs Pop without destroying it (we usually target our own, just to save some pts off Pop)

since im using dismember, this might be the slot im thinking of replacing for the meantime..
just waiting for the next tourney for it to be tested, i just dont have the time to try it online....

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I need to agree with Poxy. If you're looking at RR an are seeing just the removal part of the spell, than it's weaker then other choices. But what makes it interesting is the possibility to use it iether as a removal or as a protection.
Ok, Echoing Truth might be better, but I still think that RR shouldn' be completely overlooked, and I'm interested if Poxy will be satisfied with it.

[Barbed Blightning]

I need to agree with Poxy. If you're looking at RR an are seeing just the removal part of the spell, than it's weaker then other choices. But what makes it interesting is the possibility to use it iether as a removal or as a protection.
Ok, Echoing Truth might be better, but I still think that RR shouldn' be completely overlooked, and I'm interested if Poxy will be satisfied with it.

I'd play vapor snag before increasing my curve beyond tarmogoyf

[Hopo]

Back in the Caplan-days Fire/Ice was pretty much one of the better cards you could play in this deck. An automatic 4-of, one could say. Then the banning of Misstep and printing of Delver and Thalia happened and the deck started succeeding while people apparently switched to Forked Bolt.
Has anyone been testing or having success with this ultimate UR tempo card? Turn 1 creature into T2 Fire/Ice is very powerful as it can also turn on your Daze at times when it otherwise would be blank.
Or what are the reasons not to play it now? Casting cost?

[Manipulato]

Back in the Caplan-days Fire/Ice was pretty much one of the better cards you could play in this deck. An automatic 4-of, one could say. Then the banning of Misstep and printing of Delver and Thalia happened and the deck started succeeding while people apparently switched to Forked Bolt.
Has anyone been testing or having success with this ultimate UR tempo card? Turn 1 creature into T2 Fire/Ice is very powerful as it can also turn on your Daze at times when it otherwise would be blank.
Or what are the reasons not to play it now? Casting cost?

The casting cost of 2 are the problem. The card itself and the effect´s are super flexible! But we don´t want a cc2 removal...

Greetings

[Water_Wizard]

Fire/Ice is also slightly better if you expect to see a bunch of fatties, like vs. Reanimator, Sneak and Tell, or something similar because you can Ice to Fog and buy yourself a turn and an attack phase.

Currently, I run 1 Fire/Ice because of the Show and Tell match-up. If I face more Thalia (Maverick, D&T), Tribal, Zoo, I switch to Forked Bolt.

Fire/Ice is also an instant, which allows for EOT casting, combat tricks, killing creatures in response to attaching equipment, targeting with MOM, or other such things.

F/I also picthes to FOW.

[SirTylerGalt]

Fire/Ice is also slightly better if you expect to see a bunch of fatties, like vs. Reanimator, Sneak and Tell, or something similar because you can Ice to Fog and buy yourself a turn and an attack phase.

Currently, I run 1 Fire/Ice because of the Show and Tell match-up. If I face more Thalia (Maverick, D&T), Tribal, Zoo, I switch to Forked Bolt.

Fire/Ice is also an instant, which allows for EOT casting, combat tricks, killing creatures in response to attaching equipment, targeting with MOM, or other such things.

F/I also picthes to FOW.

Note that Reality Ripple, which was being compared to Fire//Ice, can also fog, it's an instant, and you can even use it after your opponent declares attackers (you can't do that with Fire//Ice, it's too late once they tap to attack).

[Mr. Crane]

Fire/Ice is also slightly better if you expect to see a bunch of fatties, like vs. Reanimator, Sneak and Tell, or something similar because you can Ice to Fog and buy yourself a turn and an attack phase.

Currently, I run 1 Fire/Ice because of the Show and Tell match-up. If I face more Thalia (Maverick, D&T), Tribal, Zoo, I switch to Forked Bolt.

Fire/Ice is also an instant, which allows for EOT casting, combat tricks, killing creatures in response to attaching equipment, targeting with MOM, or other such things.

F/I also picthes to FOW.

d you keep a f/i pos board? (against reanimator or snt)

[poxy14]

was able to test REALITY RIPPLE last night, though it'll be very raw since it's not an actual tourney, just a normal playtest with a friend (URNivmagus/pyromancer)
again (RUG stocklist = 3pierce, 2 forked, stifles....snareless, probeless...dismember slot = reality ripple.

was somehow able to draw the lone copy in 6 out of 10 games...some early, some mid game due to cantrips...
4 games (1) upkeep rippled opp. 3rd land drop, he dropped pyro to be met by daze, (2) rippled delver from bolt midgame, (3) rippled goyf (5/6) blocking giant niv (5/6) + bolt to goyf, swing next turn ftw, (4) rippled pyro in response to opp. probe....(less that 2/1 mass blocking swinging goose, probe gives him blank)
2 games = was eaten by FoW

conclusion = was a better topdeck than dismember, though there are still alot of good removals vs RR, (if ur talking bout removals)
+ was the ability to PHASE OUT our clock, and i mainly was testing this card for this particular purpose..decay, liliana's, terminus, verdicts, ee's, ratchets...except for goose, we would still somehow be able to swing back..

more playtesting vs tier1 decks still is very much required..

[Barbed Blightning]

Note that Reality Ripple, which was being compared to Fire//Ice, can also fog, it's an instant, and you can even use it after your opponent declares attackers (you can't do that with Fire//Ice, it's too late once they tap to attack).

Note that the last example is totally irrelevant 99% of the time, with the 1% being chalked up to sneak attack or through the breach.

[SirTylerGalt]

Note that the last example is totally irrelevant 99% of the time, with the 1% being chalked up to sneak attack or through the breach.

I don't understand what Reality Ripple does better than Fire//Ice against Sneak Attack and Through The Breach. You can't target Emrakul anyway, and if you want to stop Griselbrand from attacking, you can tap it in the "Beginning Combat" phase, or phase it out before damage. I'm wondering what happens to the creature that's phased out though...

Reality Ripple can sometimes be a better combat trick than Fire//Ice. Let's say your opponent is at 6 and has two 4/5 Tarmogoyf, while you are at 8 and have two threshed Nimble Mongoose. It's his Beginning Combat phase.
Do you Ice one of his goyfs before he attacks with it? If so, he can just keep the second goyf on defense, stopping you from killing him next turn. If you wait until he declares attackers, it's too late for you to Fire//Ice his goyf, you have to double block one goyf or chump block to avoid dieing, losing a Mongoose...
Reality Ripple is a better combat trick in such a situation. If he doesn't attack, you don't "waste" your Reality Ripple pre-combat. If he attacks with one goyf, you take the hit, phase out his second goyf, and attack for the win during the next turn. If he attacks with both goyfs, you phase one out, take the hit from the second one, then attack for the win during the next turn.

[Barbed Blightning]

I don't understand what Reality Ripple does better than Fire//Ice against Sneak Attack and Through The Breach. You can't target Emrakul anyway, and if you want to stop Griselbrand from attacking, you can tap it in the "Beginning Combat" phase, or phase it out before damage. I'm wondering what happens to the creature that's phased out though...

Reality Ripple can sometimes be a better combat trick than Fire//Ice. Let's say your opponent is at 6 and has two 4/5 Tarmogoyf, while you are at 8 and have two threshed Nimble Mongoose. It's his Beginning Combat phase.
Do you Ice one of his goyfs before he attacks with it? If so, he can just keep the second goyf on defense, stopping you from killing him next turn. If you wait until he declares attackers, it's too late for you to Fire//Ice his goyf, you have to double block one goyf or chump block to avoid dieing, losing a Mongoose...
Reality Ripple is a better combat trick in such a situation. If he doesn't attack, you don't "waste" your Reality Ripple pre-combat. If he attacks with one goyf, you take the hit, phase out his second goyf, and attack for the win during the next turn. If he attacks with both goyfs, you phase one out, take the hit from the second one, then attack for the win during the next turn.


Your example still seems like a too-specific scenario. Who is to say that Ice wouldn't draw you into a Submerge or lightning bolt? Or that your opponent would totally swing out against you when he knows that you have two non-interactive creatures and a deck full of cantrips to find you some burn?

The way I see it, RR and Ice are basically the same card most of the time for what you are using them for... except Ice draws a card. And can also actually kill a creature like DRS and can hit a player or planeswalker with Fire.

The only application for RR that intrigues me is the ability to totally remove a batterskull from play. Even then, however, we have no shortage of tools to fight that strategy--stifle, grip/grudge, countering the equipment, snare for SFM...

[Mammutti]

Hi all, the ultimate lurker here. I have been reading this thread for a couple of years and never posted anything - things are about to change. Beware.

RUG has been my number one deck to go to since the printing of Delver. Below are three reports from local tournaments from the last three weeks.

First the list:

2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt

SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Rough // Tumble
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage

Then the tournaments:

Tournament 1

2-1 Shardless BUG: Double Stifle is enough to keep him off mana while Mongooses beat him down. G2 he manages to get everything going. G3 involved Stifles, early pressure, double Daze for his Strix and a Brainstorm held to the last possible moment finding a crucial Bolt on the last turn.

2-0 Team America: He mulled to 6 both games. G1 an early Delver backed up with Daze, Fow and Bolt for his Deathrite are enough. G2 goes longer, but Probe helps me to sequence correctly. We trade some Delvers and eventually he casts a Tombstalker, which I Force and play a Goyf when we are both in top deck mode.

2-0 RUG Delver: Tight plays plus I drew more Goyfs both games. Probes were excellent.

0-2 UWR Delver: G1 he has three lands and a fetch. I have Daze and Stifle. He casts Geist, but his double Daze in response to me cracking a fetch to pay for the first one is enough. I should have fetched first before attempting to Daze but in this situation it would have not mattered anyway. Second game I Ponder, he Wastes and I don't see another reliable mana source the whole game. Probe reveals double Stifle and I draw one fetchland the whole game. Didn't see any Mongooses in any of the two games. Sigh.

2-0 Grixis Delver: G1 is a close race but again a Brainstorm held till the last minute finds a Bolt and seals the deal. G2 I remember having a Goyf and a Mongoose and he has no answers. After he emptied his hand to create Elemental chump blocker tokens from Pyromancer, I played Rough.

4-1-0


Tournament 2

1-1-1 Grixis Delver: I lose G1 to Bob drawing too much gas and me not finding any answers. G2 he keeps a shaky hand with 5 lands but somehow manages to survive to the late game. I eventually beat him down with a Delver and a Mongoose. G3 goes to time. I had two flipped Delvers and two Bolts in hand so I would have probably been able to take this one if I had even one more turn.

2-0 Aluren: G1 I see a Man-O-War and realise he is player Aluren. Better to hold my counters then. He doesn't have it. G2 he attempts to Aluren but I'm armored to the teeth. Long story short.

2-0 Shardless BUG: I have exactly what I need for this match up. A Bolt and 3 Stifles. T1 Shaman eats a Bolt, T2 fetch gets stone rained, T3 Wasteland on his only land and the team finishes him off from there. G2 he manages to play his land drops. He plays a Strix, plays a Shardless Agent cascading into a Goyf, but then makes a mistake and fetches after Goyf has resolved. Snap Submerge the Goyf and Ancient Grudge both of his remaining guys and swing for the win.

2-1 Omni Derp: G1 he Show and Tells a Dream Halls while I'm tapped out. I pitch a Ponder to Spell pierce his Enter the Infinite. He doesn't draw another win condition. G2 we fight over a Show and Tell, but he has FoW and a Pact. Omniscience into Enter into derps into Lab Maniac. I die with two flipped Delvers on the battlefield and one combat step away from victory. G3 I'm a little bit (extremely) tilted and keep a hand with no lands, two Probes, REB, Ponder, Spell Pierce, Daze and a Delver. I trust my opponent having me on FoW if I won't hit my land drops - because how could I otherwise keep a hand like this? I Probe twice and pass, no lands. He looks at me if I'm serious. I just smile and nod subtly. Island cantrip, pass. Draw... not a land, discard, pass. Island, cantrip, pass. Draw... not a land, discard, pass. Things are looking grim. Sol land, cantrip, pass. Draw... Volcanic Island! I don't want to play the Delver here because I need mana for counters. He plays another Island and casts a Show and Tell. I can't remember how this went exactly but I remember a counterwar leaving me tapped out and him with one mana open when Show and Tell resolved. Dream Halls vs Delver. He attempts to Enter but I pitch a blue card for Spell Pierce. He plays a cantrip, which I Daze. On my turn I REB the Dream Halls and start beating with the Delver. On his last turn he manages to Cunning Wish for Noxious Revival into Dream Halls while having a Show and Tell. I double Brainstorm into Daze and Spell Pierce to stop his Enter the Infinite again after the SnT. Felt like winning the lottery.

2-0 Jund: G1 Stifle-Daze-Wasteland trio makes the tempo plan work perfectly for me. A stifle for his Liliana activation and a Bolt to the face is enough. G2 I Waste him off of double black and have Stifles, a FoW and a lot of creatures.

4-0-1


Tournament 3

2-1 BUG Landstill: G1 is miserable for me. I have a Mongoose but sustaining threshold is impossible against two Shamans. A couple of Ancestrals and a Jace later I'm buried deep under card advantage. G2 is a strange one. He removes my graveyard with Nihil Spellbomb but does not draw anything relevant after. Two 1/1 Mongooses nibble his life total away. G3 I have turn one Delver and keep him off of black mana to avoid being Decayed. He attempts to cast Life from the Loam with Trop and Waste on the field but I counter the Loam 4 turns in a row before Wasting his Tropical Island.

2-0 Death and Taxes: I FoW his Swords, Daze his Flickerwisp and Bolt his Mirran Crusader. Delver and Mongoose have a clear path to victory. G2 feels a bit closer, but after T3 Ponder reveals two Sulfur Elementals and a Rough, I know I can't lose. He concedes to the first Elemental.

1-2 RUG Delver: G1 is a close game but he draws his 3rd Goyf and I'm left without answers. G2 goes the other way around. G3 he wins the Stifle-Wasteland war and I am behind the whole game. He has more Goyfs, more Submerges and more Pyroblasts. A frustrating loss. Is this how it feels to lose against RUG? No wonder some people hate this deck.

2-0 Maverick: T1 Probe gives me perfect information again how to play this one out. He has Swords so I play a Mongoose. I Waste him twice and Forked Bolt his Dryad Arbor and Thalia. He is left with a Shaman and a Forest. I have plenty of Dazes for everything that's about to come. G2 early pressure and double Submerge buy me enough time to win.

3-1-0

In total: 11-2-1

The list feels very solid. I used to run Tarfire in place of Forked Bolt. Tarfire was very good from time to time but it leads to awkward situations against opposing Goyfs, especially when I was running Dismember as well (Goyfs being 5/6). The benefit of Forked Bolt hitting two guys for one is nothing to sneeze at - even at sorcery speed. Probes are very good G1 against an unknown opponent but they usually lose value and get sided out against decks where lifetotal matters. I tested quite a lot with -3 Probe, +1 Forked Bolt, +1 Snare, +1 Chain but this configuration in my opinion lead to too many burn heavy hands where cards were stuck in my hand. Probes help to achieve threshold, dig deeper and provide vital information. I would not cut them after my testing and 3 feels to be the right number of them.

Match up against the new Grixis Delver feels very good for us. All of their guys die to Rough and if you play Probes you know if they are holding Perish, which seems to be the only card that gives us trouble. Even Pyromancer with a couple of tokens is not a problem if you can maintain air dominance.

UWR Delver doesn't feel that bad either even if they are running RiP. Their deck is generally much slower with higher curve and their only solid answer to Mongoose is Batterskull (well, and RiP obviously).

I'm probably going to take RUG to Bazaar of Moxen in November and I would like to hear your opinions on the Shardless BUG match up a little bit more. As it is the only match up where I don't feel confident. What kind of sideboard would you recommend against the deck? Basically only chance to survive is to kill Shamans in sight and hope to choke their mana development.

I am testing SB Misdirection a little bit now. So far finding space to side them in has been difficult. And a couple of times I would have wanted the Misdirection to be an answer instead. Maybe it's too conditional even though bouncing back Hymns, Decays and Visions is great. Opinions?

Lastly to contribute to the ongoing conversations about RR. I haven't tested the card, but the situations given here (Goyfwars and Grizzlebrand) it feels like Submerge and counters are the cards you want to play instead. RR costs 2 mana and it is a huge investment. Plus you need to keep the mana open for it. And we definitely have all the tools to handle Batterskulls already.

This post turned out to be much longer than I expected. Thank you for reading. Hope you enjoyed the reports.

Cheers!

[Plague Sliver]

Lots of good stuff

Welcome to the Source :tongue: (I kid, I kid)

Out of curiosity, was there any combo of dredge represented in the field? Looks like fair vs. fair in all your matchups.

I can't say much about the Shardless BUG matchup, other than the fact that Spell Pierce + Stifle seems stellar against the deck.

[Mammutti]

Out of curiosity, was there any combo of dredge represented in the field? Looks like fair vs. fair in all your matchups.

There were at least Reanimator, ANT, Omni Derp, Doomsday and possibly a Belcher (?), but no Dredge. And I guess Aluren could be considered as a combo deck as well. Delver decks seem to occupy the largest portion of the metagame though. I have to say that I enjoy playing those tight Delver mirrors.

[HammafistRoob]

I'm wondering what happens to the creature that's phased out though...


When a creature is phased out, it's treated as though it doesn't exist. Not exactly exiled but effectively exiled.It comes back to the battlefield again at the beginning of its owners untap step. This won't trigger come into play effects and the creature isn't affected by summoning sickness.

[poxy14]

The only application for RR that intrigues me is the ability to totally remove a batterskull from play. Even then, however, we have no shortage of tools to fight that strategy--stifle, grip/grudge, countering the equipment, snare for SFM...

what intrigues me is the way RR can protect our own clock vs decay, terminus, verdicts, liliana/jtms activations when u have no stifle in hand...
RR will never be like F/ice..it can remove permanently remove a target and can gives you a new card...
stifle, grip/grudge,submerges, dismembers, snares, roughs...100% agree theyre better removals vs RR from things we hate...

but then again non of these can save our own creature (except goose)/clock vs uncounterable spells (except of submerging ur own crit when decayed)..
i brought RR to the discussion coz i was looking for a new tool vs hated matchups...jund/bug/DECAY..

RR is what i think, at 1 more cost to cast (we're usually at 1cc)...
is our 5th stifle (hide land from opposing wastes, upkeep ice oppossing land), our 4th submerge, a counterspell vs AD, Verdict, our 7th burn that can deal with huge walls and provides great tricks from EoT to combat phases...

[Barbed Blightning]

what intrigues me is the way RR can protect our own clock vs decay, terminus, verdicts, liliana/jtms activations when u have no stifle in hand...
RR will never be like F/ice..it can remove permanently remove a target and can gives you a new card...
stifle, grip/grudge,submerges, dismembers, snares, roughs...100% agree theyre better removals vs RR from things we hate...

but then again non of these can save our own creature (except goose)/clock vs uncounterable spells (except of submerging ur own crit when decayed)..
i brought RR to the discussion coz i was looking for a new tool vs hated matchups...jund/bug/DECAY..

RR is what i think, at 1 more cost to cast (we're usually at 1cc)...
is our 5th stifle (hide land from opposing wastes, upkeep ice oppossing land), our 4th submerge, a counterspell vs AD, Verdict, our 7th burn that can deal with huge walls and provides great tricks from EoT to combat phases...

And yet it costs two. I love Fire//Ice...but I'd never play it because it costs two. Two mana for a preboard spell is asking a lot of this deck, since we typically are trying to resolve the maximum number of spells to attain threshold and out-tempo our opponent. Playing crap like RR and hoping you'll have the open mana to protect you goyf or delver is just never going to happen.

And as far as board wipes are concerned? Play around them or, as is case with terminus, counter it (or stifle the miracle trigger). But, hey, test it out. Get back to us when you have definitive results exonerating the card. Until then, I see it as too expensive and not powerful enough.

[SirTylerGalt]

When a creature is phased out, it's treated as though it doesn't exist. Not exactly exiled but effectively exiled.It comes back to the battlefield again at the beginning of its owners untap step. This won't trigger come into play effects and the creature isn't affected by summoning sickness.

Yeah, I know that part. I was just wondering how that would interact with Sneak Attack. I guess phasing out an Emrakul only delays it for one turn, since it will come back into play at the beginning of its controller's next untap step, and it will stay in play forever, since the Sneak Attack "sacrifice it at end of turn" trigger does nothing while it's phased out. In such a case, Fire//Ice would be better than Reality Ripple.

[matunos]

Yeah, I know that part. I was just wondering how that would interact with Sneak Attack. I guess phasing out an Emrakul only delays it for one turn, since it will come back into play at the beginning of its controller's next untap step, and it will stay in play forever, since the Sneak Attack "sacrifice it at end of turn" trigger does nothing while it's phased out. In such a case, Fire//Ice would be better than Reality Ripple.

Yes, a phased out Enrakul wouldn't have to be sacrificed to Sneak Attack. This is why Vision Charm works with a Phyrexian Dreadnaught.

However, since Emrakul has protection from colored spells, the bigger question is how you'd Reality Ripple him in the first place.

[Barbed Blightning]

Yes, a phased out Enrakul wouldn't have to be sacrificed to Sneak Attack. This is why Vision Charm works with a Phyrexian Dreadnaught.

However, since Emrakul has protection from colored spells, the bigger question is how you'd Reality Ripple him in the first place.

But you could phase out a grizzlebees...effectively giving them a one-sided, one-mana S&T

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I think that RR ability to remove permanents isn't the most important thing about the card, at least not enough important to start a discussion about how to RR out pro:colored Emmy.

The fact that RR might work like a momentary removal or a rescue button depending on a situation, is what makes the card so multifunctional... and thus interesting.

Again, I know that 2-mana spells are one mana costly, I know it can't answer the permanents permanently, I know that it doesn't catnip, I know that it can't kill weak creatures/PWs/players and finally I know that we can kill BS with different cards, but the mere fact that it can save 2/3 of our critters against non-counterable or repeatable removal (be it Decay or Liliana), all that without losing a top deck or even topdeck plus flip, and can be played even against non-green deck (e.g. Wasted out green opponent or Grove of the Affinity-like decks that don't play Forest) makes this card pretty special.
As a little sidenote: it does very little against edict effects when you have two or more creatures out, but Submerge also won't help us in that case, neither it can phase out land/Chalice, so it's basically a draw.

I'm interested in what Poxy's testing tells about the card.

[cheerios]

Concerning Reality Ripple, I really don't see much value in using it as a means for saving our creatures. As Barbed Lightning said, playing around them is the only way. Echoing truth can act in a similar way but doesn't even make the SB. This deck just requires the highest levels of card quality and efficiency. Some niche cards can make the SB due to specific meta needs. However, good luck with your testing! It never hurts to innovate.

[Blaze22]

I think reality ripple is just too narrow to be considered playable in rug... each of our cards must be either a cheap and versatile spell, a beater or an expensive (cmc>1) BOMB that is very likely to win the game (sylvan library, sulfur elemental, rough//tumble etc.) ...sadly, RR is neither of these so it's really unlikely to fit here. But still, if you like to try something new, you can give Mage's Guile a shot, it seems superior to RR. it still defends your dudes from removals plus it's never a dead card in hand...

[Bed Decks Palyer]

It still surprises me how people can't see that RR is removal or protection depending on situation.

Mage's Guile doesn't remove that CotV or KotR or Chasm or Ensnaring Bridge or whatever, just as well as Fire/Ice doesn't save your Goyf from Decay. RR can do any of that, depending on circumstances, and that, only that makes it interesting , though maybe not powerful enough.

Until poxy comes with some test results on RR, I won't return to thie topic of RR, as the dead horse is beaten to pulp...

[Mr. Crane]

I think reality ripple is just too narrow to be considered playable in rug... each of our cards must be either a cheap and versatile spell, a beater or an expensive (cmc>1) BOMB that is very likely to win the game (sylvan library, sulfur elemental, rough//tumble etc.) ...sadly, RR is neither of these so it's really unlikely to fit here. But still, if you like to try something new, you can give Mage's Guile a shot, it seems superior to RR. it still defends your dudes from removals plus it's never a dead card in hand...

RR = against verdict, liliana and terminus and x batterskull/ griselbrand and blockers

[Barbed Blightning]

It still surprises me how people can't see that RR is removal or protection depending on situation.

Mage's Guile doesn't remove that CotV or KotR or Chasm or Ensnaring Bridge or whatever, just as well as Fire/Ice doesn't save your Goyf from Decay. RR can do any of that, depending on circumstances, and that, only that makes it interesting , though maybe not powerful enough.

Until poxy comes with some test results on RR, I won't return to thie topic of RR, as the dead horse is beaten to pulp...

The point is that RR is too expensive. If decay is the rational, decay decks run wasteland, so keeping two mana up consistently while we wait for the hammer to fall is going to be hard--as it is, we run the bare minimum lands we can to begin with.

If White sweepers is the rational, I can understand that but we also need to consider our sideboarding plans against those archetypes. If we're keeping in RR for the "gotcha" effect, then most likely we are sacrificing something else (be it countermagic, burn or SB tech).

If RR cost only U this would be a different discussion entirely. But it costs two.