[Deck] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

[dubz1337]

Hi all,

New poster here. Have been in and out of legacy for a long time, but recently was able to borrow RUG off a friend online, and have started playing daily events with it. After 3 events, I have 2 4-0s and a 2-2. (not bad!) and had a couple questions for you guys. In the normal 3 flex spots, I am currently playing a lavamancer and 2 dismembers, and was wondering why dismemeber seems to not be anywhere in anyones lists. Its great in any tarmogoyf mirror, and usually isnt dead except against combo/UWr. Perhaps the online metagame has more tarmogoyfs than the IRL one, which would certainly explain it. Im also having trouble understanding the zuron orb in the SB. Is it just for burn or does it have other applications? my list for reference:
4x ponder
4x brainstorm
4x lightning bolt
3x spell pierce
1x spell snare
3x stifle
1x lavamancer
4x mongoose
4x daze
4x goyf
2x dismember
4x force of will

SB
1 stifle
2 spell snare
1 spell pierce
1 dismember
2 sulfur elemental
2 pyroblast
1 loam
2 rough
1 graf cage
1 zuron orb.

I think the SB is a mess. Ive jsut been trying some stuff out in order to get a feel for what i need. Rough has been by far my best card out of the board, alon with the 3rd dismember.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Dismember does nothing against Jace and Ad Nauseam/S&T, that might be the reason why people don't play them too often. Depends on your meta, of course. From your sb I really dislike the 4th Stifle, it's an auto four of, but if you choose to not play set, than I won't expect it in sb. But maybe you have some reason I'm missing, after all this is not the first time I see 3 Stifles only. It's necessary to make room in deck.
I think 3 Dismembers in between main and sb are too many, imho 2 are enough, but I can't tell. I ceased to play the card several weeks ago.
And yes Zuran Orb is for the Burn mu and it's great, because after you deploy your threats you hardly ever need more than two lands, moreover it negates Price of Progress (Sulfuric Vortex or not) and if they don't have Vortex, you may throw unnecessary Wastelands into the bonsai.

[BKclassic]

Zuran Orb is friggin' terrible. If Patrick Sullivan regularly plays Burn in your meta, I might consider a Zuran Orb in the board. However, most Burn players are scrubs, and even against a good Burn player, Burn is not exactly a hard match up. Just don't put more than two lands into play unless one of them is Wasteland. Everyone is running Zuran Orb in their list because everyone is copying Jacob Wilson's 3 Gitaxian Probe list (with Zuran Orb in the SB) and winning with it. I vastly prefer Pithing Needle in that slot, having an extra one mana answer to Deathrite Shaman, another answer to Aether Vial and an answer to Liliana. Also boarding Ancient Grudge in against Maverick is usually not great and I really like Pithing Needle there as well. There might be better cards to run over Zuran Orb based on your meta, but given Zuran Orb's limited application (only comes in against Burn), there is most likely something much better you should be playing.

[thecrav]

So do we now play Llawan in the sb now as a one of or two with the rise of TNN and merfolk making a comeback

I don't know about you, but I generally don't ever get up to four mana producers in play

[Zelgius]

I dislike playing Dismember in RUG. It may cost only 1 colorless, but the life loss becomes relevant when I play a list that also runs Gitaxian Probe. When I am up against an opponent who plays 4x Goyfs, in G1, I either try to save Daze or FoW for it in, or if they manage to resolve one, I attack with my own Goyf, wait for them to block it, then cast a Bolt on it for the kill. I also run a singleton Fire/Ice, and I can always tap the opposing Goyf, attack with my own, and cantrip in the process.

In G2, I got 3 Submerges from the sideboard, and I think they are superior to Dismember in dealing with Goyfs (Or KotRs, Tomstalkers, etc), even tough it may look like a pseudo-removal spell. We have to keep in mind that this a tempo deck, and we win by generating tempo, delaying or preventing the opponent from resolving threats and screwing their mana base. Submerge not only removes a blocker for an entire turn, allowing Mongoose and our Goyfs to attack without fear, but also forces the opponent to draw a card he already had, denying him the card he would draw that turn and generating tempo in two ways. Also, if our opponent cracks a fetch while he has a Goyf in the battlefield, we respond with Submerge and then it becomes a "true" removal spell.



My list for reference:

3x Volcanic Island
3x Tropical Island
3x Polluted Delta
1x Flooded Strand
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Wasteland

4x Delver of Screts
4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Tarmogoyf

4x Lightning Bolt
1x Fire/Ice
4x Stifle
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Gitaxian Probe
4x Daze
2x Spell pierce
4x Force of Will

Sideboard
1x True-Name Nemesis
1x Ancient Gruge
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Pithing Needle
1x Sulfur Elemental
2x Rough/Tumble
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Flusterstorm
3x Submerge


I also got a question: what do you guys think of 1x TNN in the sb? I currently am siding him in against BG/x decks or UW/x control decks. TNN doesn't require a graveyard to be effective (RiP screws 2 of our beaters), ignores Jace, and is very hard to be dealt with once it hits the battlefield, since targeted removals (including Abrupt Decay, which we cannot counter) cannot hit it, and blocks batterskull all day. It also gives this deck some kind of inevitability, as all of you have to do when it is in the battlefield is to counter Liliana or Stifle its -2 hability. Its uncommon to see Golgari Charm being used against RUG, so I'm not worried about it. I play only one TNN for the following reasons:

a) it costs UU1, in a deck with 18 lands (4 of them colorless), so it may sit in our hand for a while if we draw it in the opening 7
b) it is often the best card you can draw in topdeck mode against these decks - answers Jace, blocks their threat, and offer inevitability, specially if your other threats reduced the opponent's life total in bolt range or close to it (ex. 6-9 life).
c) we only really want it later in the game, as in the early game we will be Wasting / Stifling their lands.

What do you guys think of it?

[Blitzkreuz]

Greetings. Last sunday I attended a 5 round tournament.Went 3: 1:1 (In fact would be 4: 1:0, more later)
Sadly I have to show you guys my inferior Decklist. The reason for the two shocklands are budget, because I am a poor student^^. I purposely
choose to play only 2 Goyfs, because I think 4 are way to much, I may be playing 3, if i had
one more, but I didnt miss him that much.

Decklist:

// Lands
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Tropical Island
1 Breeding Pool
2 Volcanic Island
1 Steam Vents
4 Wasteland
//\\
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf
//\\
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Izzet Charm
2 Dismember
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Forked Bolt
//\\
// Sideboard
3 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sulfur Elemental

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Rough // Tumble
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Submerge

So now the report:

M1 against Elves!

G1 I beat him down with Delver. He was at 6 life (mine 18) and I had in play: Delver + double Mongoose.
He had 2 Symbiotes and 3 Elves in play. I decided to attack with all my creatures in hope of him
sacrificing to creatures. Well... he blocked with 2 Elves and then bounced em. Nasty Elves,
I always miss some of their interactions, even if they are really basic, I have to admitt.
So he at 3 Life, of course combos of with two glimbse and I didnt have another counter (Used them
already). He beat me down with 3 18/18 trample or so.
G2 My starting hand was sth like 3 Waste and I think a Brainstorm, some other land and a Bolt.
I wasted all his lands, bolted all his creatures and finally drew a Delver which won me the game.
G3 I cant remember much of it. Somehow I went to 11 life, then I stabilized and beat him down to 0.

1:0

M2 Sneak and Tell
G1 I misinterpreted him for playing a tempo Deck, because I overheard him asking for Nihil Spellbomb (bUrg), so I
decided to shuffle away my pierce for another Bolt. Well of course the next turn he played a Sol Land and
I felt quite stupid. 2 Emrakul attacks later I was dead.
G2 Cant remember much of it. I had a Hand full of, and I mean full of, counters, but failed to draw
a threat for about 6 turns maybe. But he didnt find his combo piece either so I killed him eventually.
G3 I managed to win this, too. But I always feel uncomfortable playing against combo, even
if we have a decent matchup against them. You never know if you should hold open your manabase or not.

2:0

M3 bUrg
G1 Well, actually THAT was the guy who asked about Spellbombs >.<
I dont even wanna talk about it much, I played rather bad both games. We wasted each other and both struggled
for mana. He played sth. I dazed it but hey, thats an open mana he has there... Well damn
G2 Was similiar, it seems this is all about fighting against stifles and wastelands, I lost this one, too.

2:1

M4 BUG with True Name Nemesis

I knew that he played at least two copies of them, even worse he played jitte, too. I really wasnt looking forward to play against him, especially after I
failed miserably against bUrg.

G1 I won after some countering on both sides and attacking with 3 Mongoose (threshed)

G2 I was wastelanded out of the game and two TNNs sealed the deal for him. I have to say, up until now, the TNNs werent so scary at all,
I mean, i had zero lands, even a grizzlybear could have beaten me down.

G3 The tempo plan resolved completely-> Delver+Waste+Stifle just won. Even though I forgot to stifle one of his Fetches,
I realised it just when he looked at his Library. I bet if I asked him if I could still stifle it, when he grabbed for his lib. he would
have allowed it, because he is a nice player, but I felt bad forgetting it and didnt dare to ask.
At 6 life he resolved a TNN and had a Jitte out, but no mana open to equip. I drew Bolt, attacked with Delver and won.

3:1

At that point I was second placed and my next opponent third. If we both drawed we would get to 10 Points and be in Top 4. He agreed.
Still, we played for Honor and the chance of who is allowed to pick first.

He played UWR Delver, the game was similiar to the bUrg one. Mostly wasting and stifling around. I won the first match, thanks to Mongoose,
he won the second one, because I had no Lands again and I managed to win the last one.

3: 1: 1

I picked a Time Spiral and was happy, because I always have a bid of a strange feeling with my budget cuts, but well, I played this Deck twice in
a Tournamend and twice I got 3. of around 12 to 14 people.

Edit: Just saw that Baddecksplayer shares the SB with me, nearly exactly^^

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Greetings. Last sunday I attended a 5 round tournament.Went 3: 1:1 (In fact would be 4: 1:0, more later)
Congratulations!



I have to show you guys my inferior Decklist. The reason for the two shocklands are budget, because I am a poor student^^. I purposely
choose to play only 2 Goyfs, because I think 4 are way to much, I may be playing 3, if i had
one more, but I didnt miss him that much.
Fine list for a budget deck, at least you don't need to fear Extraction on dual. :)
I don't like the mere two Goyfs, the deck looks a bit week in creature dpt. Maybe you may try Ooze or Pyromancer or Clique... or just keep it as it is. :)



G3 The tempo plan resolved completely-> Delver+Waste+Stifle just won. Even though I forgot to stifle one of his Fetches,
I realised it just when he looked at his Library. I bet if I asked him if I could still stifle it, when he grabbed for his lib. he would
have allowed it, because he is a nice player, but I felt bad forgetting it and didnt dare to ask.
I think you've done right. You let him resolve the fetch, he was already searching, it's definitely too late and it won't be nice to ask him to take the fetch back. I even think that if dispute would arise, judge would side with him.



Edit: Just saw that Baddecksplayer shares the SB with me, nearly exactly^^
Not nearly, we have a completely same sb. How do you like it? I do like it a lot.


Time for a small report. I was super lazy with notes today, so the report is a bit sloppy.
I played 4 rounds of Swiss today with my usual list:
Qty Name
// Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
//\\
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
//\\
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Forked Bolt
//\\
// Sideboard
2 Rough/Tumble
3 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sulfur Elemental


R1, Ondra, D&T
g1: I thought he plays ANT that he tested before, so I mulled quite a solid hand and kept six crappy Waste-only not willing to go even deeper. He played two MoRs but kept them at home, I finally got a pair of Goyfs and then I FoWed his Phyrexian Creature, so the Goyfs were big enough to beat into Moms. He got another Phyrexian Creature out and named Grim Lavamancer. I finally got rid of Moms via some spectacular attack and Bolt, but sadly he had Mirran Crusader who chewed me a bit. But before he could finish me, I Bolted him and then I tapped Goyfs and the oppoennt did not have the Mindcensor to kill me in return after his Phyrexian Artifact died.
sb: in Roughs, Needles, Elementals, Grudge and KGrip, out some mix of Dazes, FoWs and Pierces. (I mostly keep Snare in, as it stops fast Thalia - she isn't that bad out of Vial on turn3 - and of course RiP.)
g2: He played Vial, then we exchanged five Wastelands and then I Pithed the Vial. I starred into void, so did he, then I slowly drawn some lands and played one and two Delvers. In the meanwhile he of course accumulated an immense amount of Vials with 1-2-3 counters, but although he Flicked my Needle and then Vialed in his horde, I had Forked Bolt and Roguh ready, so my Delvers won.
Win, 1:0.


R2, STsung, D&T
Legacy is diverse...
g1: I don't remember much, just that I've seen two MoRs, a Needle Guy, Serra Avenger, Jitte and Mirran Crusader I Dazed. Funny enough, this wasn't my undoing and I just tapped my big bad Goyfs and (small) bad Mongooses and with a well timed Stifle and such, I won right before she could turn the game over with Jitte.
sb: see above.
g2: I was never in game and the only thing I did was six Delver dmg.
g3: A drawn out game which would definitely be verily interesting to describe had I not lost my notes. I know I let her resolve the second SFM (after the first one Stifle-Squired), because I had nothing against RiP and thus I saved my Snare. Luckily she took BSkull, not Jitte, so I just Bolted the dude like a champ and then I kept her of five mana quite long to win. But the whole game was much more thrilling and there was lots of this and that, but you know, memory is fragile. Ultimately i won.
Win, 2:1.


R3, Tom, Pyromancer BURG
A Kid Named Mr. Suitcase aka Card Shark Himself. The first time today when I did not felt really good...
g1: I completely outclassed and soundly defeated him, ut ppl, THIS was the battle! I don't remeber everything, I just know I bolted immense hordes of DRS and he made some six or how many tokens, and we had Goyfs all over the place and we Brainstormed and Pondered and Stifled and tapped llands and creatures (ok, not me) for mana and we Wasted ourselves and then I tapped the Delver for the last time and then I bolted him or w/e.
sb: out 3x Daze, 2x FoW, in 3x Submerge, 2x Needle but maybe also out 2x Pierce and in 2x Pyroblast, IDK now.
g2: No way. I can't recollect this game and I think I'll start to write the notes again. We played a REAL Magic, you know, kinda when children stand out of chairs for the final attacks. At the end I killed him with Forked Bolt right when he was about to turn the tide in his favor.
Win, 3:0.


R4, Tom (another one...), UW Miracles
Ok, Basics.dec, surpriingly I lost.
g1: I beathim down to seven or so, but then he stabilized and won.
sb: out all removal, in all counterspells and both Needles (without Top his decks collapses) plus Elementals (they attack).
g2: I played turn1 Delver, turn2 Delver, flip, attack, attack, Peirce+Daze his removal, attack, won.
g2: An ugly starting hand and it did not get better. I should have tried a second Goyf sooner, mabye. This way he stavbilized on 7 life.
Loss, 3:1.


Perfect tournament, shame the Miracles, but well, bad luck happens. Btw, I'm not the one to cry, I was very lucky today.
I ended 3-1 and took some small money.
I wouldn't change a dot in my 75, except for the fetchlands, but hey, I sold the Tarns.

[xfire]

Hey guys a few nights ago me and a few friends were talking legacy and the question came up from a friend who doesn't play RUG about running a stile-less deck list, claiming that he has seen several lists run by pros that have cut the card. Now i know that im not a pro level player by any means, though i do feel i have a fair understanding of the deck and have a few results to show, 2nd in a gpt, top 4 in a 30 man, few 4-0s on daily's so nothing to write home about but like i said i feel i know the deck well, and i find so may uses for stifle and even when the card is not at its best it is stile FoW food. Stile hits fetches when they walk into it, cascaded triggers, ancestral vision trigger, planes walker abilities, Stone forge and even the germ trigger. After stating my case he seemed less than impressed and was on the side that good players can play around stifle with lands and that in his experience the card isn't that good. I called him crazy and we went about the night. Since then i have brewed up and deck list with no stifles anywhere in the 75, i was wondering what are your thoughts on the card. Is there a trend to move away from the card, with the meta on MTGO moving towards these grindy attrition decks where killing drs on turn one is one of the more important things to be doing and having ways to beat goyf mirrors, is it right to cut the card for more proactive cards such as burn and good tempo card like snare. Though i need to point that there are decks that have these cards along with stifle, im in the camp that thinks probe is what this deck wants to be doing so they take up some of the flex slots that extra burn and snares / pierces would be in. Here is the list i want to try out. Sorry if this topic has been brought up prior, im sure it has, though wading through a couple hundred pages to find it is more than i have the patience for lol.
Thoughts, comments, ideas?


4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose

2 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Snare

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Gitaxian Probe

1 Fire/Ice
2 Forked Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt


3 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
4 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard
1 Flusterstorm
1 Young Pyromancer
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Submerge
2 Rough/Tumble
1 Zuran Orb
1 Life from the Loam
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Pyroblast

[cheerios]

Top 8ed a 50+ man event last weekend using a modified Jacob Wilson probe build. Modifications are the following:
fire/ice->forked bolt
JTMS and Zuran orb-> surgical extraction

Short Report:
swiss:
R1 DNT 2:0
R2 Merfolk 2:0
R3 UR Delver 2:0
R4 LED Dredge 2:0
R5 ID
R6 ID

top 8:
got 0-2ed by the same LED dredge that I faced on swiss. Overall, the list felt incredibly strong. Dredge can be a bitch, I was able to surgical 2 dredgers on the G2 but opponent went reanimator mode and top decked Elesh Norn for the win.

[Blitzkreuz]

You are right baddecks. I really like my (our) sb and I too ,don't miss the gravehate.
But this Saturday I am attending a bigger tournament in hannover,Germany and I am considering cutting one submerge for one grafdiggers cage. I don't need them much,maybe because of my two dismember main

Gesendet von meinem HTC One X+ mit Tapatalk

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Hey guys a few nights ago me and a few friends were talking legacy and the question came up from a friend who doesn't play RUG about running a stile-less deck list...
Playing without Stifle is an option and there were quite some players with quite some results. I personally dislike these builds and I never tried them, but I understand where are the pilots heading. Imho the card is integral part of the deck and I wouldn't play less than three, because you always want to counter at least one trigger/ability, be it fetch, Waste, SFM, germ, Jace or anything else. My animosity towards Stifle-less build is so strong that I can't even imagine myself testing it, and as I don't trust the build, it'll be a self-fullfiling prophecy. So no, I don't like the build, bnut I know of people advocating it and I know they were successful.



Top 8ed a 50+ man event last weekend using a modified Jacob Wilson probe build. Modifications are the following:
fire/ice->forked bolt
JTMS and Zuran orb-> surgical extraction

Short Report:
swiss:
R1 DNT 2:0
R2 Merfolk 2:0
R3 UR Delver 2:0
R4 LED Dredge 2:0
R5 ID
R6 ID

top 8:
got 0-2ed by the same LED dredge that I faced on swiss. Overall, the list felt incredibly strong. Dredge can be a bitch, I was able to surgical 2 dredgers on the G2 but opponent went reanimator mode and top decked Elesh Norn for the win.
Good job, congratulations!
What have you won?
I already thought about F/I instead of (at least one) FB, because it is much more flexible and in one out of two games we're just fine with F/I instead of FB, as on the play it kills DRS flawlessly. (Unless you need to play around Daze, ofc.) The ability to tap the opposing wall and then press the next 4 or 7 dmg is pretty powerful, and the tapping of lands on upkeep also was fine, but I still can't feel the old enthusiasm about the card. It looks so slow...



You are right baddecks. I really like my (our) sb and I too ,don't miss the gravehate.
But this Saturday I am attending a bigger tournament in hannover,Germany and I am considering cutting one submerge for one grafdiggers cage. I don't need them much,maybe because of my two dismember main

Depends. Imho it's better to concentrate on Submerges then play a lone Grafdigger's Cage, but well, if you feel that you're ready for Goyfs (and with the two Dismembers main this is reasonable approach), then yes, play one Cage. It's golden in some of the really annoying matchups and you may even use it as a minor hate against PIF combo and GSZ-centric decks.

[Blitzkreuz]

Depends. Imho it's better to concentrate on Submerges then play a lone Grafdigger's Cage, but well, if you feel that you're ready for Goyfs (and with the two Dismembers main this is reasonable approach), then yes, play one Cage. It's golden in some of the really annoying matchups and you may even use it as a minor hate against PIF combo and GSZ-centric decks.

That was my line of thinking,that cage is useful against gsz decks,too. Normally in the small tournaments I attend I don't feel the necessity for it,but going in such a large one,I just feel strange without at least one piece of hate against the grave.



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[Ziveeman]

Hey guys a few nights ago me and a few friends were talking legacy and the question came up from a friend who doesn't play RUG about running a stile-less deck list, claiming that he has seen several lists run by pros that have cut the card. Now i know that im not a pro level player by any means, though i do feel i have a fair understanding of the deck and have a few results to show, 2nd in a gpt, top 4 in a 30 man, few 4-0s on daily's so nothing to write home about but like i said i feel i know the deck well, and i find so may uses for stifle and even when the card is not at its best it is stile FoW food. Stile hits fetches when they walk into it, cascaded triggers, ancestral vision trigger, planes walker abilities, Stone forge and even the germ trigger. After stating my case he seemed less than impressed and was on the side that good players can play around stifle with lands and that in his experience the card isn't that good. I called him crazy and we went about the night. Since then i have brewed up and deck list with no stifles anywhere in the 75, i was wondering what are your thoughts on the card. Is there a trend to move away from the card, with the meta on MTGO moving towards these grindy attrition decks where killing drs on turn one is one of the more important things to be doing and having ways to beat goyf mirrors, is it right to cut the card for more proactive cards such as burn and good tempo card like snare. Though i need to point that there are decks that have these cards along with stifle, im in the camp that thinks probe is what this deck wants to be doing so they take up some of the flex slots that extra burn and snares / pierces would be in. Here is the list i want to try out. Sorry if this topic has been brought up prior, im sure it has, though wading through a couple hundred pages to find it is more than i have the patience for lol.
Thoughts, comments, ideas?


4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose

2 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Snare

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Gitaxian Probe

1 Fire/Ice
2 Forked Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt


3 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
4 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard
1 Flusterstorm
1 Young Pyromancer
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Submerge
2 Rough/Tumble
1 Zuran Orb
1 Life from the Loam
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Pyroblast

Where are the lists that cut Stifle? I know Stifle vs no Stifle was a debate before Miracles were printed but since then I don't remember seeing any lists without Stifle, but I could be wrong.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I've spent two days by tests of RUG on MWs - the community is still the same pain in the ass as it ever was - and I'm more and more liking the "turn1 threat now!" doctrine. Looks like ppl are not willing to Waste my sources or Bolt the Delvers (as they fear Daze) and the tempo gain was quite often crucial. I also start to keep pretty strange hands just to see where I'll get with them, but well, sometimes (three Delvers in the starting 7) it's not really surprising.
I guess there's no firm guideline for the most efficient play, but the fast threat seems to off-balance ppl quite well. Interestingly enough, many post-boards games are won while the g1 results are clunky. Looks like the all-around nature of the deck (with many counterproductive cards in particular matchups) gets better after the sb when we shove away the balast.
It's really interesting to watch and analyze the plays, because Delver, Mongoose and Goyf are each completley different creatures, yet they may win the game on alone. Also, creature rushes were not uncommon, and I won several games by throwing in Delver, Delver, Mongoose, Mongoose, Goyf while I sat on Stifle/Pierce/Snare long enough for the dudes to overtake the situation.

I'm pretty confident when it comes to my list, but I'm still saying to myself, that maybe some less predictable build may be interesting. I need to force myself to tinker with Probe, and maybe I'll once again try some one ofs, too.

[cheerios]

@beddecks
I opted to play forked bolt over fire/ice due to the high presence of Thalias and UWR Delver in my meta. Merfolk and UR delver are also making a comeback thanks to TNN; thus, an increase in the number of Dazes in my meta.

[Tormod]

I'm pretty confident when it comes to my list, but I'm still saying to myself, that maybe some less predictable build may be interesting. I need to force myself to tinker with Probe, and maybe I'll once again try some one ofs, too.

I really like your list too. I never really bought into probe and I like the 2 snare, 2 pierce and additional business cards of the 2 forked bolt. I approve of the needles in the board. They help in so many match ups for such an efficient mana cost.

[Purgatory]

I've spent two days by tests of RUG on MWs - the community is still the same pain in the ass as it ever was - and I'm more and more liking the "turn1 threat now!" doctrine. Looks like ppl are not willing to Waste my sources or Bolt the Delvers (as they fear Daze) and the tempo gain was quite often crucial. I also start to keep pretty strange hands just to see where I'll get with them, but well, sometimes (three Delvers in the starting 7) it's not really surprising.
I guess there's no firm guideline for the most efficient play, but the fast threat seems to off-balance ppl quite well. Interestingly enough, many post-boards games are won while the g1 results are clunky. Looks like the all-around nature of the deck (with many counterproductive cards in particular matchups) gets better after the sb when we shove away the balast.
It's really interesting to watch and analyze the plays, because Delver, Mongoose and Goyf are each completley different creatures, yet they may win the game on alone. Also, creature rushes were not uncommon, and I won several games by throwing in Delver, Delver, Mongoose, Mongoose, Goyf while I sat on Stifle/Pierce/Snare long enough for the dudes to overtake the situation.

I'm pretty confident when it comes to my list, but I'm still saying to myself, that maybe some less predictable build may be interesting. I need to force myself to tinker with Probe, and maybe I'll once again try some one ofs, too.

Amen. I get a couple of games on Cockatrice most days (my job is really strange, in short I often have an hour or so of free time during the afternoon while waiting for meetings etc.) and even though it's far from MWS, Cockatrice gets its fair share of jerks too. Just yesterday, when I went Volc -> Delver, my opp quickly asked "What site did you get that from lol?" and then he proceeded to call me a noob and disconnect after my turn 2 probe. He must've been on something really embarrassing.

I would never use it for proper testing, I like it as a time-killer, however.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I opted to play forked bolt over fire/ice due to the high presence of Thalias and UWR Delver in my meta. Merfolk and UR delver are also making a comeback thanks to TNN; thus, an increase in the number of Dazes in my meta.
Yes, with Thalias all over our lgs, FB seems much more reasonable than F/I.



I really like your list too. I never really bought into probe and I like the 2 snare, 2 pierce and additional business cards of the 2 forked bolt. I approve of the needles in the board. They help in so many match ups for such an efficient mana cost.
I just found this explanantion (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27038-Blog-Post-Delver-of-Secrets-in-Legacy-Part-1-RUG-amp-Deckbuilding-Theory&p=765399&viewfull=1#post765399) of why Probe isn't good in Thresh and I must admit I find it true.



Amen. I get a couple of games on Cockatrice most days (my job is really strange, in short I often have an hour or so of free time during the afternoon while waiting for meetings etc.) and even though it's far from MWS, Cockatrice gets its fair share of jerks too. Just yesterday, when I went Volc -> Delver, my opp quickly asked "What site did you get that from lol?" and then he proceeded to call me a noob and disconnect after my turn 2 probe. He must've been on something really embarrassing.

I would never use it for proper testing, I like it as a time-killer, however.
Sometimes it's not that bad, but ther are times when you run into several weirdos in a row... I use MWS both as a time killer and a test platform, because it's still better training then nothing, but I hardly ever get to play some really interesting games. Aslo, there's no metagame on MWS, so what's the point of testing against 3x Pox, 2x Goblins, 1x WGBR Modern-legal-Dragons-only deck?

[Milen]

4 Rounds of Legacy

Deck:
// Lands
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
//\\
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
//\\
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Forked Bolt
//\\
// Sideboard
3 Submerge
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ancient Grudge

R1, URW (Control) Delver
He did not have any SMF or equipment, it though it was too slow. Insteda he had 2 Snapcaster and extra spells (not sure what).
g1: Delver action from both of us and goyfs from me lead to bolts plows leading to a prolonged game. Once Mongoose came down, he could not handle as he cant not interact with it.
- Probes
- Daze
- FoW
- Stifle (not 100% sure on what I took out but it was some mix of those)
+2 REB
+2 R/T
g2:
Similar game, early action from both us. He also had a Young Pyromancer which got bolted fast from me. Then Mongoose showed up to seal the game.
Win, 1:0.

R2, Reanimator
g1: I knew he was on reanimator, and I kept a hand with too little permission I did have two delvers to put a fast clock, but he had the his combo and counter backup. Grisebrand came down, although I did not have any chance I did have two delvers, one flipped, my only hope was to flip the second delver and draw a bolt, while hoping that he does not have counters in the 15+ cards he draws over next few turns (yeah that seems likely). I did manage to flip and get a bolt but he a duress and as well as get an Elesh Norn, he just would not let me have my fun.
-2 FB
-2 Bolts
-1 Stifle?
+2 REB
+2 Flusterstrom
+1 Cage
g2: I have more permission and a delver, He keep a no lander with petal and ponder which runs into my daze. No lands for him, while delver gets dear and I scupt my hand.
g3: No delver this time but a Mongoose is unfortunatly as I have 2-3counters for which I hold up mana and no fast way to fill my graveyard. He tries to entomb EOT but I daze , he should have done on his turn and played around it. After 2 more 1/1 Mongoose from my side and no way for him to get a fatty I was finally able to get to threshold and beating for 9.
He made a couple of silly mistakes which lead me to an fortunate win for me, not 100% deserved.
Win, 2:0.

R3, UWR Delver
g1: Earlty action as usual leading to an empty board. He then gets a delver and start beating up, I get an Mongoose beat on the ground but he is ahead and I can not find an answer.
- Probes
- Daze
- FoW
- Stifle (not 100% sure on what I took out but it was some mix of those)
+2 REB
+2 R/T
+1 Grudge
g2: Early action from both, he has a SFM to find Batterskull, I bolt it but a few turns later he has another one for Jitte. While I do lead on board with Goyf and Mongoose, he evetually gets jitte active to keep him alive for a couple of turns, until he finds a gaist and land for Batterskull. I had managed to get him to 1life but, without a bolt.
Loss, 2:1


R4, D&T
g1: He has vial and thalia, but I have plenty of creature and he does not find answer to 5/6 goyf.
-2 Daze
-2 Stifle
-2 Fow
-1 Probe
+2 Sulfer Elemental
+2 R/T
+2 Needle
+1 Grudge
g2: He starts with a mother, I start with needle on vial (silly me, gave away my sulfur plan from my opening hand). He does not commit to the board and spends a couple of turns tapping my lands to keep me from reaching 3. Finally i plan sulfur and a Mongoose, but he has an anwer to for the Element and starts putting creature on board. Again I am lucky enough to draw plenty of creature and overwhelm him. He get a super lucky top deck, no cards in hand no creature vs my only 4/5 Goyf when he is on 4 life he draws a plow. It take a couple of turn for me to find a Mongoose and finish the job.
Casual g3: He destroyed be ofc. Having a meekstone when he has Batterskull and Serra Avenger seem good vs RUG.
Win, 3:1.

Not too bad, with the practice the plays are much smoother so I glad for that.
I am not too happy about the UWR (SFM) Delver match up as I felt like an underdog both games, not drawing my grudge is not great (while he also wastelands my volcanics). It is becomming fairly popular deck. R/T and REB seem mediocre at best only grudge is is really good, I would like to have twoo in the sideboard but not sure what to remove. I like cage for the Reanimator as well as vs elves.


Cheers,
Milen

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Hello Milen, thanks for the report!
Btw, your sb is missing Grudge.

I'm thinking of Krosan Grip. I can't remeber the time I sideboarded it, while Grudge (and also Pyroblast) does the same yet better.
Grudge is perfect for 2-1 trades and it comes down turn earlier. Also, sb-ing Grip against D+T with their Thalias, Wastes and other denial is far too optimistic.
Pyroblast hits Counterbalance on stack, and on stack is the only time it's vulnerable. Once it lands, we won't have the luxury to Ponder into oblivion for our one KGrip.

Looks like the perfect sideboard might use 2 Grudges instead of Grudge+KGrip split. I know I'll hate myself whenever I'll need the split second, but I really don't feel any need for Grip right now.

Oh, and a small note: if our only concern of the gravedecks is Reanimator, then we may play without any gravehate, imho. Reanimator is just another combo deck that is stopped by usual combo hate. You need Cage or Crypt only for Dredge and you shouldn't be concerned with Dredge. It's a fringe deck that plays by its own rules (so even the most prepared may still lose to it), it's pretty hard to master and it should be extinct thanks to all the brilliant GY hate printed since Relic of Progenitus.

[Blitzkreuz]

Hey Guys,

I am having a hard time SBoarding against Maverick. I never can decide what to side out. I want to give you my thoughts about what to side in/out and then maybe you can give me some Feedback.

My SB:
3 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sulfur Elemental

My List can be viewed above, if necessary.

I want to board:
2 Rough, 3 Submerge and then the cards I am not sure about: 2 Pithing Needle (Stops mum and KotR) and 2 Sulfur Elemental ( additional creatures and helps a bit against mum, but isnt that strong as, for example, against DnT)

Board Out:
On the play: 3 Force ( I like still having one Force in the Deck), 2 Spell Pierce
On the draw: 4 Daze, 2 Spell Pierce

So I want to board in about 9 cards and out only 5 or 6.

Should I board in less? Or Side out more?

[Sasan]

No matter what the others tell you, board out the full playset of Stifles, 1 Daze, 2 Pierce and board in Submerges, Roughs and Sulfurs . Needle is not needed.

Stifle does nothing to their stable mana base . Forces for Knights win games.

[Manipulato]

Hey Guys,

I am having a hard time SBoarding against Maverick. I never can decide what to side out. I want to give you my thoughts about what to side in/out and then maybe you can give me some Feedback.

My SB:
3 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sulfur Elemental

My List can be viewed above, if necessary.

I want to board:
2 Rough, 3 Submerge and then the cards I am not sure about: 2 Pithing Needle (Stops mum and KotR) and 2 Sulfur Elemental ( additional creatures and helps a bit against mum, but isnt that strong as, for example, against DnT)

Board Out:
On the play: 3 Force ( I like still having one Force in the Deck), 2 Spell Pierce
On the draw: 4 Daze, 2 Spell Pierce

So I want to board in about 9 cards and out only 5 or 6.

Should I board in less? Or Side out more?

Depends on the Maverick list, but I think ancient grudge is a important card too, because Jitte or Batterskull hurts if they get online. The rest of the boarding should be like Sasan already said.

[Sasan]

Yes and against the greedy punishing Fire builds or the 4-color ones, Stifles become important again.

My boarding plan is only for straight GW. As I play 3 MD snares I do not need Grudge but if you play less I agree with Manipulato that Grudge is awesome :)

[Blitzkreuz]

Ah yes, totally forgot about the equipment^^

Thx so far for the tips, I will try siding the stifles out, at least I then have space enough for the Sideboard Cards

[Sasan]

Good luck at your tournament in Hannover. Feel free to ask more boarding questions or PM me. I will attend the tournament, too.

[Blaze22]

Hey Guys,

I am having a hard time SBoarding against Maverick. I never can decide what to side out.


Oh well... maverick is hard for us. Scouting opponent's deck in g1, setting up a game plan and use the sideboard accordingly is the key to success here. For this reason, I think there are more ways to approach this post-board matchup:

you can go with the improved tempo plan, trying to screw up his mana and denying him to play magic:

-2 pierce
-2 snare
-1 daze/force (draw/play)

+3 submerge
+2 rough

but you can go with the attrition route as well, with something like this:

-2 pierce
-4 daze
-2 stifle

+1 grudge
+2 rough
+3 submerge
+2 SE

Sideboarding is a huge part of the game; however, it's more important to stick with the plan you chose. (i.e, if you chose the attrition plan and he plays turn 1 hierarch. you won't bolt/submerge it, whereas it is completely reasonable to do so if you chose the tempo plan)

It took me a lot of practice to understand this, and I hope it'll help you! ;)

[Blitzkreuz]

That actually sounds quite reasonable, I have to think about that though,because forking a hierarch still sounds so good

Gesendet von meinem HTC One X+ mit Tapatalk

[Isre Morn]

I'd always bolt that hierarch so i'm on the Tempo side.

[apple713]

I was trying to describe the decks match ups vs the field to a friend who was trying to decide on a deck to play and came up with the following.

RUG delver is equatable to what zoo was like 4 years ago. It doesn't really have any bad match ups and is probably like 50% vs the field. A few cards blow it out, punishing fire and blood moon both i think, but they are not common enough to detour people from playing it. It is the roadblock that all decks need to deal with.


Is that description good?
Does RUG have bad match ups?
What cards just blow it out of the water?

[Sasan]

I was trying to describe the decks match ups vs the field to a friend who was trying to decide on a deck to play and came up with the following.

RUG delver is equatable to what zoo was like 4 years ago. It doesn't really have any bad match ups and is probably like 50% vs the field. A few cards blow it out, punishing fire and blood moon both i think, but they are not common enough to detour people from playing it. It is the roadblock that all decks need to deal with.


Is that description good? Does RUG have bad match ups? What cards just blow it out of the water?

A resolved and non-stifled Rest in Peace, a resolved counterbalance -- yeah that is it. Dredge and Nicfit are awful awful matchups. As these decks are fringe decks you should not care. That is why you really do not need graveyard hate anymore as Reanimator can be beaten by good-old countermagic - if you play 3 Flusterstorms in the SB the matchup is easy, even without grave hate.

It has to be seen whether the new Esper Blade and UWR Blade lists with TNN blow RUG out of water. According to my testings 3 Pyroblasts and 2 Grudges from the board and 2-3 Main Deck Snares do wonders here.

[Milen]

Hello Milen, thanks for the report!
Btw, your sb is missing Grudge.

I'm thinking of Krosan Grip. I can't remeber the time I sideboarded it, while Grudge (and also Pyroblast) does the same yet better.
Grudge is perfect for 2-1 trades and it comes down turn earlier. Also, sb-ing Grip against D+T with their Thalias, Wastes and other denial is far too optimistic.
Pyroblast hits Counterbalance on stack, and on stack is the only time it's vulnerable. Once it lands, we won't have the luxury to Ponder into oblivion for our one KGrip.

Looks like the perfect sideboard might use 2 Grudges instead of Grudge+KGrip split. I know I'll hate myself whenever I'll need the split second, but I really don't feel any need for Grip right now.

Oh, and a small note: if our only concern of the gravedecks is Reanimator, then we may play without any gravehate, imho. Reanimator is just another combo deck that is stopped by usual combo hate. You need Cage or Crypt only for Dredge and you shouldn't be concerned with Dredge. It's a fringe deck that plays by its own rules (so even the most prepared may still lose to it), it's pretty hard to master and it should be extinct thanks to all the brilliant GY hate printed since Relic of Progenitus.

Ohh i only listed 14 cards for my SB that was the problem.
I am not a fan of KGrip, sure it is the only way we deal with enchantment but it is a 3cc which is not great. Maybe I need an extra Grudge, hmmm.
I like cage for NO/green sun decks as well as ANT by shutting down PiF (which a better option than Ad Nauseam as RUG migh have already delat some decent dmg), so it is not only for Reanimator although it does not hurt as well.

[Manipulato]

I was trying to describe the decks match ups vs the field to a friend who was trying to decide on a deck to play and came up with the following.

RUG delver is equatable to what zoo was like 4 years ago. It doesn't really have any bad match ups and is probably like 50% vs the field. A few cards blow it out, punishing fire and blood moon both i think, but they are not common enough to detour people from playing it. It is the roadblock that all decks need to deal with.


Is that description good?
Does RUG have bad match ups?
What cards just blow it out of the water?

Sure it has! A non-stifled RIP, Chalice of the Void, Blood Moon, an activ Counter-Top and sometimes Batterskull (if he gets online soon).

I think DnT are quiet difficult (not impossible but difficult), the MU against BUG, Esper, Bant will get more difficult for RUG because of TNN (stalls against Goyf and block/kill Mungo). BGx-Decks can be difficult too if they get through the first 3 turns with they're fetches etc...

Greetings

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I'm thinking of Miracles matchup. They play lots of basics and they extensively use SDT. I' love to play Winter Orb or two, but I simply can't find space for it.
What do you think of it?

[KobeBryan]

I'm thinking of Miracles matchup. They play lots of basics and they extensively use SDT. I' love to play Winter Orb or two, but I simply can't find space for it.
What do you think of it?

3 submerge
1 sulfur elemental
1 life from the loam
1 pyroblast
1 red elemental blast
2 flusterstorm
1 ancient grudge
1 relic of prog
2 rough//tumble
2 flex slots

[Bed Decks Palyer]

3 submerge
1 sulfur elemental
1 life from the loam
1 pyroblast
1 red elemental blast
2 flusterstorm
1 ancient grudge
1 relic of prog
2 rough//tumble
2 flex slots
Definitely not Relic, but other than that, this looks reasonable.

[poxy14]

I'm thinking of Miracles matchup. They play lots of basics and they extensively use SDT. I' love to play Winter Orb or two, but I simply can't find space for it.
What do you think of it?

my solution for this particular matchup came from you! PITHING NEEDLES!
i have 2 sboard, and doingw wonders for me...there has also been a rise of miracles in my meta the past weeks since elves have been dominant...and that's a good matchup for them..try to squeeze in a vortex, one of my opponents scooped when i pithed EE, top and landed a vortex even though he was still at 15life..vs this matchup i try to include in all 3cc spells, so i wont be locked when i lose to CBTop...goyfs are the worst creatures here...especially when to board in RIPs..play your stifles well!

[Bed Decks Palyer]

my solution for this particular matchup came from you! PITHING NEEDLES!
i have 2 sboard, and doingw wonders for me...there has also been a rise of miracles in my meta the past weeks since elves have been dominant...and that's a good matchup for them..try to squeeze in a vortex, one of my opponents scooped when i pithed EE, top and landed a vortex even though he was still at 15life..vs this matchup i try to include in all 3cc spells, so i wont be locked when i lose to CBTop...goyfs are the worst creatures here...especially when to board in RIPs..play your stifles well!

Yep, this seems logic. Also Vortex has its aplications outside of Miracles matchup, while WOrb is awful against say D+T.

[Manipulato]

Hey guys,
today I played our local Legacy Turney with 16 people and went 1st (4:0:1).

Here a short report:

Round 1: Elves (Won 2:0)

Round 2: Mono R Burn/Sligh (Won 2:1)

Round 3: UB Faerys (With Spellstutter Sprite, Bitterblossom, Clique, FoW, Daze, Jitte, Snappy, Lili, Jace etc.) Draw 1:1 in the times one Turn before he died :mad:

Round 4: BUrG Delver (Won 2:0)

Round 5: UWR Delver (Won 2:0)

So with 4:0:1 I went 1st and picked a Misty Rainforest NM :smile:

The Deck performed really well today (Last Event was 4:1), I would have played 2 Flusterstorm in the SB but I have non of them...The additional removal instead of Gitaxian Probe feels really solid and was very helpfull today.
Here the Top 4 Decks of the event and my current list:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=12206

Greetings

[Isre Morn]

Congrats Manipulato! How were the BURG and UWR Matches for you? Matchup against Merfolk depending on 4x TNN would have been interesting.

@ Bed Decks Palyer:
What other applications does Vortex have beside Miracles matchup? I think of Bladecontrol-Lists, essentially lists which neuter our creature threats...

[KobeBryan]

Definitely not Relic, but other than that, this looks reasonable.

Do you guys not run graveyard hate in the board? I probably should play grafdiggers. But really, is 1 enough?

[Manipulato]

Congrats Manipulato! How were the BURG and UWR Matches for you? Matchup against Merfolk depending on 4x TNN would have been interesting.

@ Bed Decks Palyer:
What other applications does Vortex have beside Miracles matchup? I think of Bladecontrol-Lists, essentially lists which neuter our creature threats...

Thx,

the BURg games were very tight! Really close and thrilling! Both games OTD :rolleyes:

Game 1: I bolted his Delver and he decayed my Goyf, I dazed his TNN , after that we both had about 5 turns with Draw->Go because we both drew only counter and lands, then I drew a Mongoose and the counterwar began, then i cutted him off from black mana i resolved my goyf (he had decay in hand) :cool: My Bolts took care of DS, Delver and I won.
Game 2: He resolved Delver and flipped it and I smashed Mongoose onto the board, after that i stifled and wasted his manabase and then I resolved a Goyf and took care of Delver, I had submere in hand but he never fetched :tongue: Short story I were at 6 life and he at 9. I attacked with mungo and goyf into his snappy and DS he jump blocked both and after my second attack he died because I had Bolt. Funny sidenote: He reanimated in Game 2 a Mongoose of my grave :-)
I boarded +2 REB (because I saw TNN 1st game) +2/3 Submerge -1 Daze -1 Stifle -2 Spell Snare (he had only 2 Goyf MD).
Not a 1:1 detailed report, but it was very close.

The UWr MU was quite easy. Both games OTD again :mad:
Game 1: I forced his Delver on T1, Bolted his SFM turn 3 (before he could activate it) and crushed him with Mongoose.
Game 2: I crushed his manabase with Stifle and 2 Wasteland and killed him with Mungo and Goyf...
I boarded OTD +2 Ancient Grudge + 2 REB - 2 Stifle - 2 Daze I think (not sure anymore).

Yeah the Merfolk MU would have been very interesting, but sadly I got paired down :rolleyes:

[Sasan]

Thx,

the BURg games were very tight! Really close and thrilling! Both games OTD :rolleyes:

Game 1: I bolted his Delver and he decayed my Goyf, I dazed his TNN , after that we both had about 5 turns with Draw->Go because we both drew only counter and lands, then I drew a Mongoose and the counterwar began, then i cutted him off from black mana i resolved my goyf (he had decay in hand) :cool: My Bolts took care of DS, Delver and I won.
Game 2: He resolved Delver and flipped it and I smashed Mongoose onto the board, after that i stifled and wasted his manabase and then I resolved a Goyf and took care of Delver, I had submere in hand but he never fetched :tongue: Short story I were at 6 life and he at 9. I attacked with mungo and goyf into his snappy and DS he jump blocked both and after my second attack he died because I had Bolt. Funny sidenote: He reanimated in Game 2 a Mongoose of my grave :-)
I boarded +2 REB (because I saw TNN 1st game) +2/3 Submerge -1 Daze -1 Stifle -2 Spell Snare (he had only 2 Goyf MD).
Not a 1:1 detailed report, but it was very close.

The UWr MU was quite easy. Both games OTD again :mad:
Game 1: I forced his Delver on T1, Bolted his SFM turn 3 (before he could activate it) and crushed him with Mongoose.
Game 2: I crushed his manabase with Stifle and 2 Wasteland and killed him with Mungo and Goyf...
I boarded OTD +2 Ancient Grudge + 2 REB - 2 Stifle - 2 Daze I think (not sure anymore).

Yeah the Merfolk MU would have been very interesting, but sadly I got paired down :rolleyes:

Congrats to your stellar finish and thanks for the short report ;)

[Manipulato]

Do you guys not run graveyard hate in the board? I probably should play grafdiggers. But really, is 1 enough?

I ran 2 Grafdiggers Cage (With a heavy rise of elves) and depending on the meta 1-2 Surgical Extraction.

[Blitzkreuz]

Went to 70 Player Tournament this WE. Sadly went 3:4:0

1. Match against Burn
I dont really like playing against Burn, sure we have countermagic, but it was still close as hell. If he had decided to attack with one Lavamancer, i would be dead round 3.

2. Match against Storm. I dont know if it was TES or the other one, i cant differentiate between them.
Won both Games

3. Match against Sneak and Tell
In game 1 he managed to resolve Show and Tell with Grisel, i had Delver (flipped) Goyf and 3 Goose, I was at 5 life, he sth about 23 or so. Do I attack? Hmm this Grisel has Trample, no i dont attack as I am dead next round anyway. Well he activates Grisel like 3 times, went to 3 life and then Sneak Attacks an Emrakul. I asked him why he didnt attack me. Well, Grisel doesnt have Trample >.< Owww i felt bad after this one.
Well luckily I won g2 and 3.

4. Match against Death and Texas
Despite bringing in 8 Hate cards (Sulfur Elemental, Ancient Grudge, Needles, Rough) and having 7 Mainbord Burn I lost both games. I was to greedy, Bolted his Mothers instead of Roughing it, because I wanted to get him 2 for 1. Well some time later he had a 3/3 Angel (Serra Avenger?) and I was out of Bolts >.<

5. Match against Esperblade
I lost both Games and this Match was really annoying, my opponent was, kinda nice, but really reaaaaally way to competive for my liking. And he sat between two of his friends, they, too, were like him. For example (not my match but next to me): Emrakul attacks, Trigger gets stifled from the competive one, then he realizes that the Trigger wasnt announced, he immediatley called for a judge. Sure he is right with that, i wont argue about it, but cant one look over that? I mean he even stifled it right away, it is not like a, lets say, Ichorid Trigger, which one can forget and well, happens.
(Btw he played RUG, too, so if you read this, I dont want to say that you are not right or so, I just wanted to point out that I didnt like the atmosphere at that table at all^^)

6. Against bUrg
First round I lost because of my one of Shocklands :(
I lost game 2, too

7. Against Lands
Lost 2:1 against him.


Yeah that's it, after the short euphoria that i was 3:0 at one point, I lost all my other matches, sadly :frown: , but thats Magic, and all in all in was a fun day

[klaus]

Went undefeated in the swiss of a 50 people tournament yesterday, then painfully lost the quarter finals to DnT.
Here is what i brought:

4 Delver
4 Goose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Bolt
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Rough/Tumble (really liked R/T and I'd play it again, since it feels like it does what Forked Bolt intends to achieve, just better)
1 Sylvan Library (surprisingly MVP)

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical
3 Volcanic
4 Waste

SB:
1 Rough/Tumble
3 REB
3 Submerge (only casted it once in seven rounds, will probably reduce them to 2)
2 Fluster Storm
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sulfur Elemental (will be 2 next time around - due to losing to DnT in the top8, hehe)
2 Pithing Needle (MVP SB choice)
2 Ancient Grudge

Here's what I remember:

R1 VS. UWr Miracles
G1: I scoop to Jace and RiP on an otherwise empty board (Terminus) with no cards in hand.
G2: I cannot apply serious pressure, but he draws crap and a single Goose eventually gets there after Needle shut off Jace.
G3: Turn 4 he slams down a scary Blood Moon, which I cannot counter and am ready to scoop it up despite having a Tarmogoyf on the battlefield. Then I realise Island is his only basic land --> cakewalk.

R2 VS. UWB Fish (featuring Bob, Sculler, Hymn etc.)
G1: Bolt his dudes, Stifle Liliana's -2 gets there.
G2: 4 Lingering Spirits alongside a Jitte are a pain in the butt, but Stifling 2 triggers eventually alow me to smash face.

R3 Vs. MUD
G1: His first turn: Ancient Tomb --> Grim Monolith --> Trinisphere should be gg, luckily though I opted to keep a 4 lander featuring two Wastelands, which buy enough time to ride a Delver to victory.
G2: I recall Ancient Grudge being crucial. And Chalice at 2 doing nothing to stop my insect.

R4 VS. Mirror
G1: I draw more Geese
G2: I draw more Geese

R5 ID

R6 ID

Top8 VS DnT
RiP kills me twice. That card makes me consider enchantment removal.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Hey guys,
today I played our local Legacy Turney with 16 people and went 1st (4:0:1).

Congrats!




@ Bed Decks Palyer:
What other applications does Vortex have beside Miracles matchup? I think of Bladecontrol-Lists, essentially lists which neuter our creature threats...
Depending on the particular list, it may be good against Maverick. They are not really fast (unless they go berserk with KotRs) and their Jitte/BSkull are annoying. Funny thing is that they'll play their StP long before we'll get Vortex online, so we might be lots of life points ahead.
I wouldn't rely on a Vortex and I don't feel it is a wincon, but rather it's a losecon - it won't win you the game on itself, but it will prevent them from winning via their lifegain artifacts.
As such, Vortex is useful against any kind of deck that gains life (except for Storm, their lifegain doesn't matter), so I may consider siding it even against MUD.



Do you guys not run graveyard hate in the board? I probably should play grafdiggers. But really, is 1 enough?
I don't run any. My meta is devoid of grave decks. But if I'd needed gy hate, I definitely would not play Relic, as it hurts us and the potential gain (read: killing opposing Goyf/s) isn't worthy the trouble.
So, it'll be either Extraction (overall good effect, can't be Stifled/Needled/Chained, looks through their deck), Crypt (suppresses threshold, eats gy in resp to disenchant effects, removes Bridges) or Cage (can't be played around, does work as long as it is in game, sidehate against GSZ.dec). Numbers? Depends on meta. I remember playing four Crypts... and it still wasn't enough sometimes.




5. Match against Esperblade
I lost both Games and this Match was really annoying, my opponent was, kinda nice, but really reaaaaally way to competive for my liking. And he sat between two of his friends, they, too, were like him. For example (not my match but next to me): Emrakul attacks, Trigger gets stifled from the competive one, then he realizes that the Trigger wasnt announced, he immediatley called for a judge. Sure he is right with that, i wont argue about it, but cant one look over that? I mean he even stifled it right away, it is not like a, lets say, Ichorid Trigger, which one can forget and well, happens.
(Btw he played RUG, too, so if you read this, I dont want to say that you are not right or so, I just wanted to point out that I didnt like the atmosphere at that table at all^^)

...

Yeah that's it, after the short euphoria that i was 3:0 at one point, I lost all my other matches, sadly :frown: , but thats Magic, and all in all in was a fun day
I'm not sure what's the ruling on annihilator triggers, but maybe if the opponent forgotten to announce it, then Competitive Guy needn't to waste his Stifle. So yeah, I do understand his intentions and as long as he did nothing wrong (like kicking the other guy under table to distract him), it's Emrakul's Guy who needs to take care of triggers... amirite?
On your result: well, you take it like a true sportsman! :smile:



Went undefeated in the swiss of a 50 people tournament yesterday, then painfully lost the quarter finals to DnT.
Here is what i brought:

...

RiP kills me twice. That card makes me consider enchantment removal.
Interesting list! I'm not sure if I like it yet, but it's really interesting!
I already wrote about Sylvan Library, imho there's a finite number of cantrips/filtering that a particualr deck might play, and I'm not sure if Thresh needs more Ponder-like effects, moreover ones that need time to work, but seen how you liked it, I won't argue. After all, I got very pretty Chinese ones, so maybe, maybe... :smile:
On the Rough main: it all depends on meta. If your lgs is full of tribal aggros, then ok, lets play some one-sided WoG. Otoh, Forked Bolt might kill those whom roguh cannot: players and PWs (not that it happesn too often) and it also cost one mana less. but well, the ability to remove more than 1 or 2 creatures at once, and especially the ability to kill several DRS and/or Mongooses... well, this shouldn't be overlooked!
RiP is the only card for which I consider playing KGrip. Not thart the split second matters, but if I'd use enchantment removal, then lets play the one that can kill CB.

[Blitzkreuz]

I'm not sure what's the ruling on annihilator triggers, but maybe if the opponent forgotten to announce it, then Competitive Guy needn't to waste his Stifle. So yeah, I do understand his intentions and as long as he did nothing wrong (like kicking the other guy under table to distract him), it's Emrakul's Guy who needs to take care of triggers... amirite?

CB.

Yeah, sure he was right, I hope I made that clear enough, as I dont want to insult him in particular, especially after he tried after his Game to make up for it with his opponent. I just wanted to describe that competive atmosphere at that table.

And if you wonder what the judge said: Apparently, because the noun says "Whenever Emrakul attacks..." the trigger happens, wether anounced or not, as far as I got that right ( I was focused playing my own game after all, or more like I was focused getting the crap beaten out of me^^)

[MethadronGer]

For example (not my match but next to me): Emrakul attacks, Trigger gets stifled from the competive one, then he realizes that the Trigger wasnt announced, he immediatley called for a judge. Sure he is right with that, i wont argue about it, but cant one look over that? I mean he even stifled it right away, it is not like a, lets say, Ichorid Trigger, which one can forget and well, happens.


Uhm I was this guy and I don't know what happened in my head this game. Normally I never call the judge and be like an asshole like this. After game one I apologized for being such a dickhead and asked for reseting the bad Karma. So game two went into a really nice and fair game and after the game we talked a lot.
I really don't know what happened there and I feel sorry for breaking the fun of game one.
Maybe I was frustrated by the game before, or just stressed being a dad since four months.

At least you have to announce the Anhilator Trigger but it's not a trigger you can forget, so you'll get a waring but the trigger resolves.

[Zombie]

2. Match against Storm. I dont know if it was TES or the other one, i cant differentiate between them.
Won both Games

Carsten's article on the subject might be helpful perhaps?
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26624_Comparative-Storming.html

[Blitzkreuz]

This was indeed helpful,thanks :-)

Did he post his how to play storm article,too?

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[Purgatory]

Re: Sylvan Library. I used to play it in BUG, as a sideboard MVP, but I'm not sure I want to have it in RUG. For one thing, without DRS, and with fewer lands, mana is tighter in RUG, and tapping out for something which doesn't directly impact the board in the way that a 4/5 would do seems bad IMO.

Sure, as a sideboard card it might be great against control matchups.

[HammafistRoob]

Anhilator Trigger but it's not a trigger you can forget, so you'll get a waring but the trigger resolves.

I don't think this is correct

[MethadronGer]

I don't think this is correct

That was the ruling by the judge at the tournament. I asked a judge later in a German forum and he said that you'll have to make sure that you didn't forget the trigger. So the best way is just say trigger on the stack. I don't know why they changed this ruling from announce you triggers to this shut we have now. So if I told him I want to declare my blocks and he says ok, he forgot the trigger and the trigger doesn't go on the stack.

[testing32]

Played the stock list at GP:DC with 2 TNN in the board over jace and zuran orb. Was 11:2 going into round 13. Lost my last 2.

Weekend went two byes plus beat 2 sneak and show, UR tempo, deathblade, mono-black devotion (day 2 with gray merchants, nykthos, phyrexian obliterator), dredge, BUG delver and affinity.
Loses on the weekend were to Patriot, Sneak and Show, Shardless and Deathblade.

The deck is still solid. Probes are great in large tournaments like this were you have no idea what the opponent is on. They got boarded out a lot though.

[Sasan]

Played the stock list at GP:DC with 2 TNN in the board over jace and zuran orb. Was 11:2 going into round 13. Lost my last 2.

Weekend went two byes plus beat 2 sneak and show, UR tempo, deathblade, mono-black devotion (day 2 with gray merchants, nykthos, phyrexian obliterator), dredge, BUG delver and affinity.
Loses on the weekend were to Patriot, Sneak and Show, Shardless and Deathblade.

The deck is still solid. Probes are great in large tournaments like this were you have no idea what the opponent is on. They got boarded out a lot though.

Congrats for the good finish :)

[BlueP.]

Congrats testing32. Were you satisfied with TNN in your SB ? I'm still a bit reluctant about it, just want to know if it worked well for you.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Congrats from Bohemia!

[SansSerif]

I'm trying to decide between RUG and UWR Delver for an upcoming tourament. Normally I play Miracles or Shardless BUG, but this will be a 0 proxy event so I expect a large number of tribal and combo decks with a fair showing from dredge.

How would RUG fair in this meta? How are the MUs against goblins, elves and dredge?

[testing32]

Congrats testing32. Were you satisfied with TNN in your SB ? I'm still a bit reluctant about it, just want to know if it worked well for you.

I brought it in a few times. I didn't see it that often and when I did it never really made an impact.

[anakyn]

I'm trying to decide between RUG and UWR Delver for an upcoming tourament. Normally I play Miracles or Shardless BUG, but this will be a 0 proxy event so I expect a large number of tribal and combo decks with a fair showing from dredge.

How would RUG fair in this meta? How are the MUs against goblins, elves and dredge?


From what I know (I've rarely played Canadian) Goblins should be one of your worst matchups.
Dredge should be OK like most combo decks.
I don't know anything about Elves matchup.

[Mammutti]

From my experience with RUG, Goblins is manageable if you hit plenty of Bolts and Stifles and deliver early Delver beats. It's not going to be easy, but with tight play it's not too bad. Remember to keep in FoW when on the draw. You definitely want to counter that turn 1 Vial.

Dredge on the other hand is a miserable match up and it depends on how many dedicated gravehate slots you have on your sideboard. Following today's trends many people don't pack enough gravehate to turn that match up into a positive one.

Elves has been an ok to favorable match up for me. Counterspells and burn are valuable plus Roughs after boarding. Experience is key here as well. You really need to know what to counter and when to burn creatures.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

From what I know (I've rarely played Canadian) Goblins should be one of your worst matchups.
Dredge should be OK like most combo decks.
I don't know anything about Elves matchup.

You need to be the beatdown in Goblins mu, or they just slowly overrun you with CA and with superiror threat density. Stifle is amazing here, because it turns their dudes into 1/1 and 2/2 for three or four mana. Also, the more Bolts you play, the better, of course.
Dredge in fact is amazingly awful matchup. Compering it to normal combo decks is not right. Once they resolve one discard outlet, they simply don't need to care of our countermagic, we have very few ways how to remove Bridges, they may chumpblock Goyfs for whole eternity, it's hard to run them of creatures, our mere one or two gy hate slots are no match for their deck, they play about twelve Ancestrals, their DDD grinding plan is hard to stop, Ichorid-Therapy-zombie makes them loads of small annoying creatures while it devastates our hand. In fact Dredge is a deck designed to beat blue decks, and as such, it is pretty good against RUG. Fortunately it's extinct and moreoverit's pretty hard to play well after sb.
Elves are quite good if you play at least two Roughs, just watch for the must-counter spells.

[ShiftyKapree]

Went 4-3 this weekend at Grand Prix DC getting my third loss at round 7 to elves. My sideboard consisted of 1 Zuran Orb, 1 Life from the loam, 3 submerge, 2 rough/tumble, 1 ancient grudge, 1 krosan grip, 1 Grafdiggers Cage, 2 REB, 1 VClique, 1 Flusterstorm, 1 Sulfur Elemental. My losses of the day were against some monoblack reanimater storm deck, uwr patriot this loss I went down to 5 cards bc I didn't draw lands in my first 7 and 6 hands, for two games in a row. Was a real shitty way to lose for my second loss in round 5. My final loss was to elves I managed to beat him the second game with rough/tumble and smash with goyf and goose. The game three he beat me with a natural order into craterhoof. The Zuran Orb came in handy against a U/R delver match which won me the game to him. If I was to change the board I would run 2 submerge and add maybe a 3rd rough/tumble after losing to elves or a Pithing Needle. I did play against a u/w stoneblade with TNN and crushed him 2-0. If you play the control part to this match-up you will win. Also never over extended to it otherwise supreme verdict will come down. Overall my experience at DC was a good one for it being my first Grand Prix, where I have played countless SCG Opens. I plan to continue playing RUG Delver after this. I wouldn't change my maindeck I switched out forked bolt for fire/ice Friday night and found it to be better and always using it either fire or ice. Git Probe I still have mixed feelings on it, I only ran two maindeck and boarded them out all day but I do feel they were great for the Grand Prix as an opener to play delver or stifle.

[Justin]

I agree that Stifle is a key card to beating Goblins. Don't make the mistake of using Stifle on their fetches. This is usually a waste of the card, unless you've seen them miss a land drop (without a Vial on board) or otherwise know you can mana-screw them. Stifle is far more effective against Matron and Ringleader (and occasionally SGC, Incinerator, Piledriver trigger, etc.). Use your burn spells on their Piledrivers, Warchiefs, and Chieftains. Your creatures are very strong against Goblins. Goose and Goyf live while killing most Goblins that slam into them, while Delver is unblockable. This matchup was very favorable until the printing of Cavern of Souls, which makes it easier for them to resolve spells. Another key to winning this matchup is to mulligan any hand in which you do not have an answer to a turn one Lackey. If you can cast a Goose or a burn spell on turn one, you are probably good to go.

[Zombie]

If you want to shore up both Elves and Dredge matchups, Grafdigger's Cage. As an Elves player, few things annoy me as much as a Cage on the board. Imagine someone turning all your cantrips into blanks. That's what it feels like playing vs. Cage. That is to say, please burn all Grafdigger's Cages you encounter, we will reward you handsomely.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Went 4-3 this weekend at Grand Prix DC... I wouldn't change my maindeck I switched out forked bolt for fire/ice Friday night and found it to be better and always using it either fire or ice. Git Probe I still have mixed feelings on it, I only ran two maindeck and boarded them out all day but I do feel they were great for the Grand Prix as an opener to play delver or stifle.
Sadface. It happens quite often, after all, we play just 14 sources of blue, so the number of mulligans is a bit higher than I like.
I think I'll switch to F/I , the utility is fine, we already have ways how to stop turn1 DRS and on the play F/I is not that bad.



I agree that Stifle is a key card to beating Goblins. Don't make the mistake of using Stifle on their fetches. This is usually a waste of the card, unless you've seen them miss a land drop (without a Vial on board) or otherwise know you can mana-screw them. Stifle is far more effective against Matron and Ringleader (and occasionally SGC, Incinerator, Piledriver trigger, etc.). Use your burn spells on their Piledrivers, Warchiefs, and Chieftains. Your creatures are very strong against Goblins. Goose and Goyf live while killing most Goblins that slam into them, while Delver is unblockable. This matchup was very favorable until the printing of Cavern of Souls, which makes it easier for them to resolve spells. Another key to winning this matchup is to mulligan any hand in which you do not have an answer to a turn one Lackey. If you can cast a Goose or a burn spell on turn one, you are probably good to go.
Yes. Also Stifle is pretty good against their Wastelads, as Goblins fire them like crazy, always having either Vial or Lackey or Chieftain to cheat with mana. I side out most of the counterspells, because they can't reliably hit anything relevant (with all the Caverns, Vials and such); I may just keep few counterspells when there's nothing more to sb in or when I fear black splashed things like Perish or Edict.
Rough is no-brainer.
Grudges are fine against Vials and Relics. (Note how Stifle hits the annoying Relic.)
Sulfur Elementlas block and attack. It's quite a useful ability.
Needle stops Vial, SGC and Port. The latter is pretty annoying when the opponent deprives you of green lands for your critters.



If you want to shore up both Elves and Dredge matchups, Grafdigger's Cage. As an Elves player, few things annoy me as much as a Cage on the board. Imagine someone turning all your cantrips into blanks. That's what it feels like playing vs. Cage. That is to say, please burn all Grafdigger's Cages you encounter, we will reward you handsomely.
Yes. I would play Cage, but there's no grave deck in our meta and just an Elf or two, so I'm fine without it, but I wouldn't burn them yet.... :laugh:


Btw, a small note on Dredge matchup: as we all know, it's prety important to counter/hit their discard outlets. Never forget about Colliseum, as it also works as a draw enabler. Stifle is fine and so is Needle.

[Sasan]

Hey folks, as a long-time tempo decks player I am asking myself whether we play the right mana base in RUG Delver.
We all know that our mana base can sometimes be not very stable, especially versus Dnt - a deck that plays Wastelands *and* Ports. The mana screw plan is the second most important plan versus our deck.

With that in mind I think this mana base that I am now trying is worth a look:

4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Basic Island

We still have 18 lands, 3 red producing duals, now even 4 green producing ones. You can now fetch for Taiga and Basic Island an are able to cast *every* spell in the deck with these two lands. Basic Island dodges Wastelands and can help us to let our cnatrips stay always alive to find more lands in times where it is needed.

Opinions on that?

[Blitzkreuz]

I don't know,would have to test a lot,but on first thought: even if you become wasteland proof,d&t can tap your island and then you just have access to red or green. Of courseonly as long as you play with only 2 lands in play

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[Sasan]

I don't know,would have to test a lot,but on first thought: even if you become wasteland proof,d&t can tap your island and then you just have access to red or green. Of courseonly as long as you play with only 2 lands in play

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Well you can always take the blue mana in your pool in the upkeep if you get ported and therefore use your cantrips.

[Blitzkreuz]

Use brainstorm yes,but not ponder. As I said I won't say you are wrong,as I haven't played the deck long enough to say sth like that,I am just not convinced yet

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[Purgatory]

Hey folks, as a long-time tempo decks player I am asking myself whether we play the right mana base in RUG Delver.
We all know that our mana base can sometimes be not very stable, especially versus Dnt - a deck that plays Wastelands *and* Ports. The mana screw plan is the second most important plan versus our deck.

With that in mind I think this mana base that I am now trying is worth a look:

4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Basic Island

We still have 18 lands, 3 red producing duals, now even 4 green producing ones. You can now fetch for Taiga and Basic Island an are able to cast *every* spell in the deck with these two lands. Basic Island dodges Wastelands and can help us to let our cnatrips stay always alive to find more lands in times where it is needed.

Opinions on that?

I wouldn't play this over the regular 8 fetches, 6 duals manabase. For one thing, the suggestion above has one fewer fetchland, meaning Brainstorm will be worse, Mongoose will be worse and Ponder will be worse to an extent. Also, any hand with Taiga, Wasteland and five spells is auto-mull, while a hand with Volcanic/Tropical, Wasteland and 5 spells is fine if there's a Delver and/or a cantrip or two.

Considering RUGs extremely low mana curve, any land in hand means access to all but four spells in the deck, as long as it's a fetch land or a Tropical, and access to all but eight spells if it's any non-Wasteland land. Thus, I don't think that Port is that great against us, lord knows I've hated that card when playing against DnT with other decks, and it does hurt a lot if he has a Thalia in play, but then again - with Thalia and a Port in play, I don't think that the lone Island will do anything.

[Grizzly_Bear]

The main reason Island and Taiga really suck (because they do), is that even though you have access to all 3 colors with these lands, you still control a target for opposing wastelands. And, once you get hit, you're down to one again and you will need both a volcanic and a tropical to get back up to all three. This is where some might argue that "well, I still have an untouchable Island for cantrips". I am fine with cantripping for lands pretty much once each game in the first turns, but if that's what I am still doing in the midgame, then I am probably already half-way to a loss.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Hey folks, as a long-time tempo decks player I am asking myself whether we play the right mana base in RUG Delver.
We all know that our mana base can sometimes be not very stable, especially versus Dnt - a deck that plays Wastelands *and* Ports. The mana screw plan is the second most important plan versus our deck.

With that in mind I think this mana base that I am now trying is worth a look:

4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Basic Island

We still have 18 lands, 3 red producing duals, now even 4 green producing ones. You can now fetch for Taiga and Basic Island an are able to cast *every* spell in the deck with these two lands. Basic Island dodges Wastelands and can help us to let our cnatrips stay always alive to find more lands in times where it is needed.

Opinions on that?
My opinion is this:
As I already stated, I played anything from 8/6 fetches/duals through 7/7 or even 6/8 f/d. At one moment in time when our lgs was full of decks with Stifles and Wastelands, I even played an extreme version of this deck that packed eight duals, three Raiforests, two Foothills, plus one of Island and Forest. Yes, Mongoose was very slow and yes, BS wasn't at its best, but the mere fact that I sidestepped the usual problems was worthy it.
But it was different time! I wouldn't use it today. But if your meta is full of Wastelands, Stifles, Blood Moons and even Life from the Loam, than this lands' structure is pretty resilient.

Speaking less strictly about metagame things: I would hesitate to play with mere thirteen blue sources. Waste-only mullians are already too usual and I don't wanna increase their percentage. Taiga doesn't dodge anything (be it moon effect or Waste), doesn't pay for Daze and is only good in that it casts all non-cantrip spells. If I'd wish to include non-blue land, then I'd definitely do this only at the expense of adding the nineteenth land (no matter if I'd go to 61 or if I shave the worst of the 60 cards for it) and in fact the only manabase I may think of now (other than Moon Thresh structure) is this:
4 Rainforest
3 Foothills
3 Trop
3 Volc
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Waste



...any hand with Taiga, Wasteland and five spells is auto-mull, while a hand with Volcanic/Tropical, Wasteland and 5 spells is fine if there's a Delver and/or a
This.



The main reason Island and Taiga really suck (because they do), is that even though you have access to all 3 colors with these lands, you still control a target for opposing wastelands. And, once you get hit, you're down to one again and you will need both a volcanic and a tropical to get back up to all three. This is where some might argue that "well, I still have an untouchable Island for cantrips". I am fine with cantripping for lands pretty much once each game in the first turns, but if that's what I am still doing in the midgame, then I am probably already half-way to a loss.Yep.
Island isn't bad, but it has its limits. And if you're in such extremely hostile meta that warrants Island and that punishes even RUG (with it's low mana curve and playset of Stifles), you should consider another deck, maybe.
Not to mention that if you play Island, you ultimately need three lands to have access to all your spells (or Island plus Taiga, but it's an awful combination).


Simply put: although I do understand that colored mana requirements and low count of blue-producing lands are chokepoints of the deck, I don't see a way how to improve this liability and the best thing to do is to use the most powerful and flexible combination of either 8/6 or 7/7 of fetches/duals.

[Sasan]

I am convinced by your arguments.

A friend of mine, a well-known RUG Delver player in Germany, always tells me to run 8 Duals. That feels really clunky. But the 8-dual land configuration wins the mirror.

[Purgatory]

A friend of mine, a well-known RUG Delver player in Germany, always tells me to run 8 Duals. That feels really clunky. But the 8-dual land configuration wins the mirror.

Yeah, I can see that. I haven't played much vs RUG with the 8/6 f/d configuration, but I have played a lot vs UWr, and it's always a struggle to resolve the fetch lands if you're on the draw.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Imao 7/7 is the best for the heavy mirrored meta, with the 4th Trop been the 7th dual - you really need to have that green mana for your creatures.
Even anything funny like 7/7 plus Forest (because Goyfs and Mongooses rule) or the other way around with 7/7 plus Island (because cantrips rule) might work. But for a blind meta I'd go with a default 8/6 in fetchlands/duals.

[(nameless one)]

Hey guys,

How does a typical Canadian Thresh 75 looks like?

Also, would you sideboard against a Chalice deck?

Thanks in advance

[Isre Morn]

I'm suddenly interested of BURG lists, occasionally because of the SB choices for TNN, e.g. Golgari Charm, Toxic Deluge.

I only know the Deathrite Canadian list from Edman Leung, who placed 5th in SCG Milwaukee (see: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=5813&d=233778). Are there more lists that proved successful?

I think it's a nice consideration splashing B into the RUG shell for better SBoarding and access to DS/Decay. Although the manabase is pretty sensitive, I'm gonna do this. Perhaps i'll do a 6/8 (fetches/duals, lands) split to grade this up.

[BKclassic]

Hey guys,

How does a typical Canadian Thresh 75 looks like?

Also, would you sideboard against a Chalice deck?

Thanks in advance

Here's my list and SB plan:

4 Waste
8 Fetch
3 Trop
3 Volc

4 Delver
4 Goose
4 Goyf

4 Bolt
1 F Bolt

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe

2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 FoW

SB
3 Pyroblast
3 Submerge
2 Rough
1 Spell Pierce
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Life from the Loam
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Sulfur Elemental

Against Chalice MUD decks you are probably boarding out Stifles for Spell Pierce, Ancient Grudge, Pithing Needle and Life from the Loam. Cut a Mongoose for a Clique to diversify the casting cost of your threats as well.

[(nameless one)]

Cool and thank you.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I'm suddenly interested of BURG lists, occasionally because of the SB choices for TNN, e.g. Golgari Charm, Toxic Deluge.

I only know the Deathrite Canadian list from Edman Leung, who placed 5th in SCG Milwaukee (see: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=5813&d=233778). Are there more lists that proved successful?

I think it's a nice consideration splashing B into the RUG shell for better SBoarding and access to DS/Decay. Although the manabase is pretty sensitive, I'm gonna do this. Perhaps i'll do a 6/8 (fetches/duals, lands) split to grade this up.
I don't have a possibility of playing BURG, in fact I deliberately cut myself of all other decks than RUG. But I think that BURG is pretty powerful and most of its power comes from DRS... for good and for bad. I'd really think about proper lands, because too few fetchlands might limit DRS and also bring troubles with necessary colors.



Hey guys,

How does a typical Canadian Thresh 75 looks like?

Also, would you sideboard against a Chalice deck?

Thanks in advance
Depends. Some 54 cards are set in stone, but then you may tinker with Grim Lavamancer, Fire//Ice, Gitaxian Probe, Forked Bolt, Chain Lightning, Sylvan Library, there are Snareless builds and the one with random Clique or whatever.

My list:

//Qty Name
// Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
//\\
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
//\\
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Forked Bolt
//\\
// Sideboard
2 Rough/Tumble
3 Submerge
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sulfur Elemental

I'd bring in two Grudges and took out two Stifles (I'd keep the rest against their Wastelands/Moxen). Depending on their build I may take Needle (hits several of their cards) and two Sulfur Elemental instead of one Goose and one something (Forked Bolt or econd Goose). Against Dragon Stompy I'd keep Bolts for the Moon Mage. Against Welderless MUD I'd took them out. Against Faerie Stompy I'd take REBs.

[poxy14]

i havent lost any single match yet vs TNN on several tourneys.. (deathblades, patriot) if i could correctly recall 5-0 vs these archetypes...
ive switched to bedecks list of 2 snares/2 pierce, probeless, 6 burn (4LBs, 1 forked and 1 fice)
i think snare is well positioned right now, did heavy lifting on countering 2 drops and reserving our very impt dazes for this monster (TNN)
sfm, rip, etc is devastating for us..snare, which i havent used in a while, was very helpful.
my losses were because i totally forget bout GY decks, now i need to find space to include them back in my SB list.

i think graf is more versatile for the current meta, since it also stops NO, GSZ.
at TCDECKS we're back on top, i think it was only last month where RUG placed 2nd behind elves...
miracles are on a rise here in anticipation for these green men...now it's gonna be TNN...after dec1, i'll post a report

[Sasan]

With 3 Pyroblasts in the sideboard and your mana denial plan going on RUG will always have a good chance versus TNN decks. We run the most efficent beater in the format and the second best mana denial plan in the meta game (after Death&Taxes) and a sideboard that allows to run REBS. While I think that bUrg has better options versus TNN, RUG has the second best ones.

@haloquaero: Read my bUrg primer here on the forums and decide if you want to run bUrg or still want to play RUG Delver. I invite you to participate in our discussions.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

i havent lost any single match yet vs TNN on several tourneys.. (deathblades, patriot) if i could correctly recall 5-0 vs these archetypes...
ive switched to bedecks list of 2 snares/2 pierce, probeless, 6 burn (4LBs, 1 forked and 1 fice)
i think snare is well positioned right now, did heavy lifting on countering 2 drops and reserving our very impt dazes for this monster (TNN)
sfm, rip, etc is devastating for us..snare, which i havent used in a while, was very helpful.
my losses were because i totally forget bout GY decks, now i need to find space to include them back in my SB list.

i think graf is more versatile for the current meta, since it also stops NO, GSZ.
at TCDECKS we're back on top, i think it was only last month where RUG placed 2nd behind elves...
miracles are on a rise here in anticipation for these green men...now it's gonna be TNN...after dec1, i'll post a report

I think I'll switch to 1FB, 1F/I, too. Becasue the versatility of Fire//Ice shouldn't be overlooked and as a one-of, it won't clog our starting hands.
Thankfully I still don't need to care of gy decks, but if the need arises, Cage is my weapon of choice as it stops GSZ.
IRL I haven't met a single TNN yet, so I can't serve the informed opinion, however a three-mana three-power creature doesn't scare me.
also, I'll stay true to KGrip, seems like a double Grudge sb that dies to RiP and CB is not a good idea. Yep, Grudge is better against equipments, Chalices and such, but w/e.

[Sasan]

Please consider running a one-off Rough/Tumble in the main deck. That is not a bizarre idea. It is my meta call of the moment. It does the same and wayr more as Forked Bolt at the costs of a Fire/Ice. It is a secret tech that RUG main decks in Germany have started to run. Along with Dismembers or Forked Bolts all creature matchups become totally ok even in game 1.

[Manipulato]

Does exist a card in Red, Blue or green that can handle a resolved TNN?
Sure we can Daze, Force him or after boarding blast him on the stack but I'm brainstorming for a card which can handle him on the field..
Any good thoughts?

[Sasan]

Does exist a card in Red, Blue or green that can handle a resolved TNN?
Sure we can Daze, Force him or after boarding blast him on the stack but I'm brainstorming for a card which can handle him on the field..
Any good thoughts?

Curfew.

Engineered Explosives.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Please consider running a one-off Rough/Tumble in the main deck. That is not a bizarre idea. It is my meta call of the moment. It does the same and wayr more as Forked Bolt at the costs of a Fire/Ice. It is a secret tech that RUG main decks in Germany have started to run. Along with Dismembers or Forked Bolts all creature matchups become totally ok even in game 1.
Might be legit. I need to analyze my meta, but as long as there are Elves, DRS and similar stuff all over the place, it might be good. What I personally dislike about Rough is that it does very little in combo matchup (although killing he Goblin tokens is pretty good), while Forked Bolt or Fire//Ice might deal the remaining damage or tap the land on their combo upkeep. (Sadly, none of these options are some great miracles.)

I'll have some spare time before the next lgs, so I'll consider my whole approach and such.

____________

I played RUG in our lgs today. List follows:

//Qty Name
// Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
//\\
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
//\\
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Forked Bolt
//\\
// Sideboard
2 Rough/Tumble
3 Submerge
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sulfur Elemental

Nothing special here.


R1, Pavel, Jund
g1: I lost the dice roll and mulled to six. I played two Delvers, but he had PFire engine online since like third turn, so they did not survive for too long. I was hit by Hymn, Wasteland I Stifled, But Liliana and Confidant later it started to really suck. I got rid of Lili but then another one showed up. These costed me two Mongooses. DC brought my opponent a Thoughtseize (lucky me, esp. when I had empty hand), then he revealed even BBE which brought him down to 4 life. I Pondered and played FB in head and in resp. he Punished the Confi. Turn later he drawn a second BBE. I knew my top so I conceded at 12 life.
sb: out 4 Forces, 1 Daze and something; in 2 Needle, 3 Submerge and probably Roughs, I'm not sure now.
g2: We just layed out lands, then he fetched, in response I Stifled, in resp he fetched and Pyroblasted the Stifle, I BSed, he Blasted BS. I played Delver and Needled Liliana. He Wasted my Trop, in resp. I fetched for another one because Extirpate. He played Goyf, then he played DC while I played Mongoose. We both pressed, but then he kept Goyf at home, once the attacks and DC brought him low. I Submerged Goyf, but he had third Blast. Then he played Goyf number 2. Thankfully DC brought him low enough for me to finish him with two L. Bolts.
sb: out Daze or two; in one Force and one Flusterstorm, but I got complete mess in it.
g3: On my turn 2 I Wasted his Badland, then I Stifled some fetch and ever since then he was stuck on one Swamp while I was beating him with Delver and Mongoose. A lone DRS was Bolted, Crypt meant nothing a last resort Bolt was Flustered and moreover I had Goyf by that time. He conceded on 2 life.
Win, 1:0.


R2, Tom, BURG
Mr. Suitcase aka Card Shark Himself strikes back.
g1: I lost the roll, mulled to six and played Delver. He Wasted my Trop, then I fetched for another one in resp. to his BS. I got Goyf pretty late while beating with the sole Delver. I FoWed Grim Lavamancer, Tom FoWed, I FoWed, he FoWed. Grim took out the Delver, then on his six life Grim and Bolt took out Goyf. Sadly I did not find two Bolts this time.
sb: out FoWs, one Snare, a Daze hopefully, maybe one Ponder or w/e; in Pyroblast, both Needles, 3x Submerge and one or two Roughs.
g2: I Stifled his fetch but then he had DRS and Goyf. I Submerged Goyf, Wasted his Trop and Needled DRS. Good job, but I had no clock yet. (Many turns later I got two Mongooses online.) I played Rough to get rid of 2x DRS. I also got a Delver next to the Mongooses, but Tom had Bolt ready. No matter what, honey badgers got there.
sb: out some Dazes in some FoWs? I can't tell.
g3: I mulled to five and kept Waste-only hand. I conceded on 19 life while his board was DRS and Sylvan Library.
Loss, 1:1.


R3, Martin, Nic Fit
g1: I won the dice roll. I played Mongoose, pass. On his turn2 he summoned Veteran (playing around Daze), but I had Bolt and Stifle which I played on my turn3. I attacked with mongoose once or twice, then he played blind Cabal Therapy. I said "in response... thinking... wait... ok, resolves", signaling Bolt like an idiot. He discarded three Bolts. Without this stupidity I'd could have won, as the EOT Bolt would make Mongoose 3/3, then I'd Bolt him again and once again, making his life total drop down below from where I might be able to just ride the Mongoose or any other critter I could have drawn. But this way I lost nine dmg to one CT... Martin played some black 2/2 dude for four which I FoWed. I still tapped Mongoose over and over, hoping to get there. He played Rec. Nightmare, passed. Turn later he resolved Explorer and I scooped.
Loss, 1:2.


Not a spectacular result.
On the other hand , I sold three Opal Moxen, three IoK, two Gorilla's Vengeance and a PerniDeed to the shop, so it wasn't that bad evening.

[Isre Morn]

@haloquaero: Read my bUrg primer here on the forums and decide if you want to run bUrg or still want to play RUG Delver. I invite you to participate in our discussions.
Thanks for your Advice Sasan. I'll read myself through the posts. The primer is very detailed, good work.

[Sasan]

Thanks for your Advice Sasan. I'll read myself through the posts. The primer is very detailed, good work.

Thanks :-)

[Sasan]

Might be legit. I need to analyze my meta, but as long as there are Elves, DRS and similar stuff all over the place, it might be good. What I personally dislike about Rough is that it does very little in combo matchup (although killing he Goblin tokens is pretty good), while Forked Bolt or Fire//Ice might deal the remaining damage or tap the land on their combo upkeep. (Sadly, none of these options are some great miracles.)

I'll have some spare time before the next lgs, so I'll consider my whole approach and such.

____________

I played RUG in our lgs today. List follows:

//Qty Name
// Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
//\\
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
//\\
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Forked Bolt
//\\
// Sideboard
2 Rough/Tumble
3 Submerge
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sulfur Elemental

Nothing special here.


R1, Pavel, Jund
g1: I lost the dice roll and mulled to six. I played two Delvers, but he had PFire engine online since like third turn, so they did not survive for too long. I was hit by Hymn, Wasteland I Stifled, But Liliana and Confidant later it started to really suck. I got rid of Lili but then another one showed up. These costed me two Mongooses. DC brought my opponent a Thoughtseize (lucky me, esp. when I had empty hand), then he revealed even BBE which brought him down to 4 life. I Pondered and played FB in head and in resp. he Punished the Confi. Turn later he drawn a second BBE. I knew my top so I conceded at 12 life.
sb: out 4 Forces, 1 Daze and something; in 2 Needle, 3 Submerge and probably Roughs, I'm not sure now.
g2: We just layed out lands, then he fetched, in response I Stifled, in resp he fetched and Pyroblasted the Stifle, I BSed, he Blasted BS. I played Delver and Needled Liliana. He Wasted my Trop, in resp. I fetched for another one because Extirpate. He played Goyf, then he played DC while I played Mongoose. We both pressed, but then he kept Goyf at home, once the attacks and DC brought him low. I Submerged Goyf, but he had third Blast. Then he played Goyf number 2. Thankfully DC brought him low enough for me to finish him with two L. Bolts.
sb: out Daze or two; in one Force and one Flusterstorm, but I got complete mess in it.
g3: On my turn 2 I Wasted his Badland, then I Stifled some fetch and ever since then he was stuck on one Swamp while I was beating him with Delver and Mongoose. A lone DRS was Bolted, Crypt meant nothing a last resort Bolt was Flustered and moreover I had Goyf by that time. He conceded on 2 life.
Win, 1:0.


R2, Tom, BURG
Mr. Suitcase aka Card Shark Himself strikes back.
g1: I lost the roll, mulled to six and played Delver. He Wasted my Trop, then I fetched for another one in resp. to his BS. I got Goyf pretty late while beating with the sole Delver. I FoWed Grim Lavamancer, Tom FoWed, I FoWed, he FoWed. Grim took out the Delver, then on his six life Grim and Bolt took out Goyf. Sadly I did not find two Bolts this time.
sb: out FoWs, one Snare, a Daze hopefully, maybe one Ponder or w/e; in Pyroblast, both Needles, 3x Submerge and one or two Roughs.
g2: I Stifled his fetch but then he had DRS and Goyf. I Submerged Goyf, Wasted his Trop and Needled DRS. Good job, but I had no clock yet. (Many turns later I got two Mongooses online.) I played Rough to get rid of 2x DRS. I also got a Delver next to the Mongooses, but Tom had Bolt ready. No matter what, honey badgers got there.
sb: out some Dazes in some FoWs? I can't tell.
g3: I mulled to five and kept Waste-only hand. I conceded on 19 life while his board was DRS and Sylvan Library.
Loss, 1:1.


R3, Martin, Nic Fit
g1: I won the dice roll. I played Mongoose, pass. On his turn2 he summoned Veteran (playing around Daze), but I had Bolt and Stifle which I played on my turn3. I attacked with mongoose once or twice, then he played blind Cabal Therapy. I said "in response... thinking... wait... ok, resolves", signaling Bolt like an idiot. He discarded three Bolts. Without this stupidity I'd could have won, as the EOT Bolt would make Mongoose 3/3, then I'd Bolt him again and once again, making his life total drop down below from where I might be able to just ride the Mongoose or any other critter I could have drawn. But this way I lost nine dmg to one CT... Martin played some black 2/2 dude for four which I FoWed. I still tapped Mongoose over and over, hoping to get there. He played Rec. Nightmare, passed. Turn later he resolved Explorer and I scooped.
Loss, 1:2.


Not a spectacular result.
On the other hand , I sold three Opal Moxen, three IoK, two Gorilla's Vengeance and a PerniDeed to the shop, so it wasn't that bad evening.


Aww that can happen. At least you had only hard matchups.

[Julian23]

Gorilla's Vengeance

You had me really excited there for a second. I want that card to exist so badly!

[Blaze22]

Does exist a card in Red, Blue or green that can handle a resolved TNN?
Sure we can Daze, Force him or after boarding blast him on the stack but I'm brainstorming for a card which can handle him on the field..
Any good thoughts?
In addition to curfew and e.e., I found other cool stuff like baiting an attack with goyf then Flaring Pain after blockers, or Devastation Tide, or Llawan, Cephalid Empress and Drop of Honey seem like the best answers... But there exist even more like Aetherize, Wash Out, Ratchet Bomb... I guess Flowstone Slide? :D

But the truth is: we don't need them at all. TNN is bad against us, just as every other 3+ mana drop of the format. By the time a 3+ drop hits play, the opponent must be either in burn range, facing an unstoppable race, or they would win anyway no matter what. TNN is as threatening as knight of the reliquary is... except one can be submerged, the other pyroblasted. I already beat it 4 times, never lost to it yet. The more TNN will be played, the more RUG will rise! ;)

[matunos]

You're probably right, but if you are going to add something, of those options, only Flaring Pain seems reasonable, and I'd think Skullcrack would be better in that situation. The flashback may not mean much if you've blown out a TNN, but the 3 damage may be relevant, and stopping life gain can be relevant in other situations.

[Blaze22]

You're probably right, but if you are going to add something, of those options, only Flaring Pain seems reasonable, and I'd think Skullcrack would be better in that situation. The flashback may not mean much if you've blown out a TNN, but the 3 damage may be relevant, and stopping life gain can be relevant in other situations.

Yeah flaring pain is by far the best option among all of them, that's why I named it first... and I prefer it over skullcrack because having flashback makes it more consistent against countermagic (often played in a deck with TNN, which is blue)! but still... don't play that. if you are struggling against TNN decks just add some pyroblasts ;)

[Manipulato]

In addition to curfew and e.e., I found other cool stuff like baiting an attack with goyf then Flaring Pain after blockers, or Devastation Tide, or Llawan, Cephalid Empress and Drop of Honey seem like the best answers... But there exist even more like Aetherize, Wash Out, Ratchet Bomb... I guess Flowstone Slide? :D

But the truth is: we don't need them at all. TNN is bad against us, just as every other 3+ mana drop of the format. By the time a 3+ drop hits play, the opponent must be either in burn range, facing an unstoppable race, or they would win anyway no matter what. TNN is as threatening as knight of the reliquary is... except one can be submerged, the other pyroblasted. I already beat it 4 times, never lost to it yet. The more TNN will be played, the more RUG will rise! ;)

Sure 3 mana is quite difficult to resolve against our deck but if they play DS or NH it gets easier for them and you will never have a counter everytime!
Fact is if they resolve a TNN were in trouble because mongoose gets fucked, goyf become stalled and only delver can fly over him but UWR has a lot of removal for him.
Sure its not game for us, surely not but it becomes a lot more difficult for us especially against variants with DS, NH.

[Zeph]

Curfew.

Engineered Explosives.

I think if they resolve a tnn your best bet is to just kill them with your delvers before they can get that batterskull onto it. I don't recall many lists running explosives but it could be useful if tnn becomes too prevalent.

[BVB09]

Hi guys, I have some questions, I hoope you can help me :)

- When is the correct time to play Ponder in this deck? And Gitaxian Probe?

- Why some lists have 1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor on the sideboard? Is it there to fight Sneak Show?

- Do we normally counter/burn Dark Confidant? And Mother of Runes? Which cards are an auto counter/burn?

Thank you very much, I love this deck but I don't get good results, maybe I'm not playing It correctly, so that's why I'm here... :)

[Blitzkreuz]

Hi guys, I have some questions, I hoope you can help me :)

- When is the correct time to play Ponder in this deck? And Gitaxian Probe?

- Why some lists have 1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor on the sideboard? Is it there to fight Sneak Show?

- Do we normally counter/burn Dark Confidant? And Mother of Runes? Which cards are an auto counter/burn?

Thank you very much, I love this deck but I don't get good results, maybe I'm not playing It correctly, so that's why I'm here... :)

- Playing Ponder is a bit difficult, some play it really soon, to set up their perfect draw, others wait until they really need a card (f.e. burn against mother) and then dig for it.

- I cannot say much about jace, as i dont own one, but as far as I know, he is in there to have a winoption after you run out of fuel

- I would always burn: Dark Confident and Mother, you really dont want to give your opponent card advantage and, well, mother is just a pain in the ass if they can use it^^

Hmm play this deck correct, I think most of it comes, of course, with practice, but I think the deck nearly plays it by himself (not as good as if you would know what you are doing, of course), but most plays seem to come naturally.

But that's of course just my oppinion

[kiblast]

Hi guys, I have some questions, I hoope you can help me :)

- When is the correct time to play Ponder in this deck? And Gitaxian Probe?

- Why some lists have 1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor on the sideboard? Is it there to fight Sneak Show?

- Do we normally counter/burn Dark Confidant? And Mother of Runes? Which cards are an auto counter/burn?

Thank you very much, I love this deck but I don't get good results, maybe I'm not playing It correctly, so that's why I'm here... :)

Your questions are extremely depending on the board state and life totals and your hand. Except for Ponder which I believe is best played as soon as possible unless you have brainstorm with no shuffle effect available, or you are keeping yourself open for Stifle/Snare or Pierce or whatever instant you have in hand and you are willing to play in opp. next turn. Probe should be played as soon as possible. It gives you free information and helps you preventing mistakes.

I don't know how you think to fight Snt with Jtms considering he doesn't do anything apart form bouncing creatures at sorcery speed, considering he can't come off a Snt. In case you want an additional out vs. SnT (I mean other than Reb) Swan Song is your best bet since it can beat those Sneak Show hands where they go for the ''lots of mana, cast Sneak Attack out of Pierce range'' plan; you are completely dead to that plan unless you have double force... Jace only helps in grindy match ups where you are probably reaching late game fairly often.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

The only time I wouldn't bolt Dark Confidant is when the opponent is very low on life... and especially when he has Blood-Braid Elf in play, Confidant's trigger on stack and I got Submerge.

[keys]

So, what cheap options does RUG have against TNN besides mana denial and counters? Goyf and Mongoose are just outclassed. I'm starting to think U/R might be the way to go in the new combo/deathblade meta. Otherwise, BUG for Tombstalker, Thoughtseize, and maybe Liliana.

[Sasan]

Engineered Explosives - just like mentionned earlier.

But I do not understand why mana denial + countering is not accepted anymore to fight a deck? RUG already has to fight Rest in Peace, Show and Tell, Counterbalance from the stack and succeeds there. And now we have a cc3 spell that every deck now plays? How should that be a problem for our deck? I cannot understand everyone - even the top SCG players - claims that RUG is not good anymore in the meta.


Just play 3 REBS and 2 Ancient Grudges in the SB and crush all TNN decks hard.

[keys]

Engineered Explosives - just like mentionned earlier.

But I do not understand why mana denial + countering is not accepted anymore to fight a deck? RUG already has to fight Rest in Peace, Show and Tell, Counterbalance from the stack and succeeds there. And now we have a cc3 spell that every deck now plays? How should that be a problem for our deck? I cannot understand everyone - even the top SCG players - claims that RUG is not good anymore in the meta.


Just play 3 REBS and 2 Ancient Grudges in the SB and crush all TNN decks hard.

EE is as good an answer as anything else, but it's still so slow. Trading a 5 mana spell for 3 mana spell is not something this deck wants to do.

[Sasan]

EE is as good an answer as anything else, but it's still so slow. Trading a 5 mana spell for 3 mana spell is not something this deck wants to do.

EE is just for the ones that are over-protective and want a removal. But the best way to handle TNN is to have REBs from the board. It supports the tempo plan (trading one mana versus three).

[kiblast]

I agree with Sasan. 3 Rebs and your main deck Dazes should be enough.

[poxy14]

as ive noticed, the current UWR builts are leaving the stifle plan already..
just keep them off 3 manas, and establish a good clock. im treating this TNN as another KOTR, once resolved, will be having a hard time.
up-ing the REB in the sideboard will be my 1st adjustments, since no one's playing mavs anymore in my meta, i'll just be on 3reb/2sub split...

i just thought that...SULFUR ELEMENTAL is the true nemesis of 1 toughness....creatures.
just make sure u bring this : )

Sleight of Mind
Card Type: Instant

Casting Cost: U

Card Text: Change the text of target spell or permanent by replacing all instances of one color word with another. For example, you may change "Counters black spells" to "Counters blue spells." Sleight of Mind cannot change mana symbols.

Oracle Text: Change the text of target spell or permanent by replacing all instances of one color word with another. (For example, you may change "target black spell" to "target blue spell." This effect lasts indefinitely.)

i would wanna try it too naming green : )
it just covers alot of space in our sb..

[Borealis]

Sulfur Elemental + Sleight of Mind


This works, but 2 cards and 4 mana is unfortunately not the kind of solution we want against Nemesis. Your probably better off splashing an underground sea and some golgari charms in the board if you really need a solution.

I have yet to face the "Tennesee Nemesis", but my plan will certainly be to either Counter it or Race, which is what we are designed to do best.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

as ive noticed, the current UWR builts are leaving the stifle plan already..
just keep them off 3 manas, and establish a good clock. im treating this TNN as another KOTR, once resolved, will be having a hard time.
up-ing the REB in the sideboard will be my 1st adjustments, since no one's playing mavs anymore in my meta, i'll just be on 3reb/2sub split...

i just thought that...SULFUR ELEMENTAL is the true nemesis of 1 toughness....creatures.
just make sure u bring this : )

Sleight of Mind
Card Type: Instant

Casting Cost: U

Card Text: Change the text of target spell or permanent by replacing all instances of one color word with another. For example, you may change "Counters black spells" to "Counters blue spells." Sleight of Mind cannot change mana symbols.

Oracle Text: Change the text of target spell or permanent by replacing all instances of one color word with another. (For example, you may change "target black spell" to "target blue spell." This effect lasts indefinitely.)

i would wanna try it too naming green : )
it just covers alot of space in our sb..

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=4742&type=card
You may even switch the dude back and forth. :smile:

[Sasan]

Can we perhaps make serious suggestions? Sleight of Mind is utterly terrible.

Just play an Usea in the SB and 2 Charms/Toxic Deluge and be done. Or play bUrg if you need solutions after TNN has hit the board.

But neither is needed, TNN is totally racable and deniable and counterable.

[poxy14]

Just play an Usea in the SB and 2 Charms/Toxic Deluge and be done. Or play bUrg if you need solutions after TNN has hit the board.
But neither is needed, TNN is totally racable and deniable and counterable.

+ 1
getting back to 2 spell snares MD has been my major tweak on my built, as it counters their 2 drops without exhausting my DAZES.
daze, fows, stifle/wastes will be our only answer to this G1..so far i havent lost any game yet vs TNN..
resolving TNN vs us will also be a huge task for them...then comes REBS, pyro, grudges.

[kiblast]

Another interesting approach could be playing a couple Misdirection in the board, so whenever your opponent Rebs your delver you misdirect it to TNN, and same vs BUG you misdirect their Decay.

[Manipulato]

Another interesting approach could be playing a couple Misdirection in the board, so whenever your opponent Rebs your delver you misdirect it to TNN, and same vs BUG you misdirect their Decay.

The example Sword/Bolt on our delver and misdirection on there TNN must be workin because he has only protection from us and not from themselves and we only change the target, NICE!
Interesting idea! Maybe as a 2off in the SB? They only issue will be if they have no creature on board...

[trollking21]

Another interesting approach could be playing a couple Misdirection in the board, so whenever your opponent Rebs your delver you misdirect it to TNN, and same vs BUG you misdirect their Decay.
I'm already rocking divert in the board and that works on the same principle. So that's more options

[Zeph]

Would divert be a better alternative than misdirection? Misdirection is more card disadvantage on top of FoW, so divert could be a better option here.

[kiblast]

Would divert be a better alternative than misdirection? Misdirection is more card disadvantage on top of FoW, so divert could be a better option here.

Yep Divert is better. I'm boarding out Fows 95% of the times though :D

[trollking21]

Probably a dumb question. You cannot stifle True-name nemesis choose an opponent. Is this correct I'm curious because it says as TNN enter the battlefield, instead of when

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Probably a dumb question. You cannot stifle True-name nemesis choose an opponent. Is this correct I'm curious because it says as TNN enter the battlefield, instead of when

You're right.

[Manipulato]

Probably a dumb question. You cannot stifle True-name nemesis choose an opponent. Is this correct I'm curious because it says as TNN enter the battlefield, instead of when

The definition of triggered abilities is "When", "Whenever" or "At", on TNN stands "As" enter's the Battlefield, so no you can not stifle his ability, same like Iona, Shield of Emeria or Painter Servant.

[Manipulato]

Yep Divert is better. I'm boarding out Fows 95% of the times though :D

Maybe board out 4 FoW and in 2 Misdirection + 2 REB or something?
Divert makes no carddisadvantage but it cost's 1 mana plus it's dead in the mid-/lategame, sure we dont expect to have a lategame because we play a tempo deck but well sometimes it happens too...

[kiblast]

Maybe board out 4 FoW and in 2 Misdirection + 2 REB or something?
Divert makes no carddisadvantage but it cost's 1 mana plus it's dead in the mid-/lategame, sure we dont expect to have a lategame because we play a tempo deck but well sometimes it happens too...

Matchups against midrange decks that play TNN tend to go grindy.

It all boils down if you want a reliable misdirection effect even late game, or you are looking for the early blow out that wins you the game.

BUG has too much discard though so you don't really want to bring in pitch spells. Divert is probably better.

[Borealis]

Another card that should help with decks running TN Nemesis is Vendilion Clique. Flying over resolved Nemesi and/or taking the unresolved ones (or accompanying equipment) is a pretty strong answer to the strategy without warping our own.

I'm testing 1 Clique in my board going forward. It was time to rotate out the Sulfuric Vortex anyway.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Another card that should help with decks running TN Nemesis is Vendilion Clique. Flying over resolved Nemesi and/or taking the unresolved ones (or accompanying equipment) is a pretty strong answer to the strategy without warping our own.

I'm testing 1 Clique in my board going forward. It was time to rotate out the Sulfuric Vortex anyway.

I wouldn't fear to maindeck the Clique. After all, twelve threats are sometimes (Jund, Miracles) not enough. If only there'd be a spare slot.

__________


Double report!

I played RUG on Monday. The list was pretty usual:


//Qty Name
// Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
//\\
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
//\\
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Forked Bolt
//\\
// Sideboard
2 Rough/Tumble
3 Submerge
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sulfur Elemental


R1, Leoš, Goblins
g1:I mulled to seven.
Leoš started with Vial while I had fast Mongoose and Delver. I also Wasted two Caverns and Bolted away the Instigator right before he overwhelmed me with his superior CA. Not even third goose was powerful enough to stop his Piledriver and War/chieftain horde esp. after I lost the red source.
sb: out bad counterspells, in Roughs, Needles, elementals, Grudge and Grip.
g2: I mulled to six.
Leoš once again started with a Vial, but I had Grudge redy, so my Goyf was big, no, it was bigger than that, it was huge. We exchaged quie some Wastelands, then in a relive-your-history I bolted away an Instigator and played Delver. Matron found Ringo but either i had Stifle or maybe it was an unlucky ringo or w/e. Rough later I flushed away his board but lost Goyf to Incinerator of which I should have thought. Fortunately I stillgot some critter to end the game.
g3: I mulled to five. Magic is fun.
I Needled the Vial and flipped Delver with FB that took care of Instigator. ("With our new Bad Dreams Pillow you may copy paste your adventures!") Matron found Ringleader and then SGC showed up and although I Bolted him, it was too late to recover, esp. when I lost green.
Loss, 0:1.


R2, Petr, Goblins
Legacy is diverse.
g1: I mulled to five. Magic is diverse.
My opening hand of Volc, doubleBolt, double FoW ws quickly exhausted and after I bolted Chieftain, Petr just played another few goblins to (Pile)drive me out.
sb: see above
g2: I had fast Goyf and I also had Grudge. I wasted his Cavern and generally took no care of his MWM. Then Warchief showed up so I promptly FBed him. Ponder, Mongoose, Mongoose and that's all she wrote.
g3: Petr had Vial, of course. I had Delver, of course. Btw, Warchief and Piledriver is Goblin's Goyf and Mongoose, but at least they do a little bit less dmg. I Stifled Matron and played another Delver who was Tarfired. Ringo showed zero Goblins. I Bolted lethal Piledriver and then Rough and Goyf sealed the game.
Win, 1:1.

Between the rounds I sold an U/B fetch to a really fine guy and we've agreed upon another fetchlands' trade.
My next opponent was also interested in my cards, but first things first...


R3, Stsung, Jund
g1: I mulled to six. Stsung had PFire online and sent my Delver to thrash bin. Then she hymned me. I Wasted Grove, but she found Sylvan Library. Than she tried Lili whih i pierced, but Library brought her CA and CQ and Goyf, DC (ok, Dazed...), BBE later I scooped.
sb: bah... I'm not sure. I took in Submerges, Needles Roughs and maybe something else, out went bad counters.
g2: I played Delver and then punted when instead of playing Submerge on GOyf before using my Waste, I just removed her Trop and then was stucked with unusable removal. I lost pretty fast.
Loss, 1:2.

I waited for her to return with cash for the jap. Heath and I was really tired and annoyed. Pretty bad evening so far if you ask me; I also needed to defecate. So I made sure I'm odd, then I dropped and rode home.
No matter what, the two sold fetchlands count.

_____________________


Today's list:


//Qty Name
// Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
//\\
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
//\\
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Forked Bolt
//\\
// Sideboard
2 Rough/Tumble
3 Submerge
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sulfur Elemental

Yeah, it's the same. :smile:

A small note:
Well, I know all the stuff about how MtG conserves your money and "it's an investment" and such. But clearly leaving the job one hour sooner, driving the car through the jams and then spending money on fees... well, lets not start this again.
Otoh, I sold two Obliterators the moment I entered the lgs. Some guy was waiting for me, as the lgs had none of the big bad 'Gators.A lucky guy, if I'd be a bit slower, maybe he'd play Phyrexian Scutas instead.

G1, Bye
Hm. At least I had time for scouting. Scouting is important.
So I went scouting to a nearby sweet-shop wher I had a tart and a cup of cocoa. Then I went to a nearby shop and bought myself a bottle of Porto wine I had dreamt of for a few days. Upon my return I realized that it's too late to make the deal with fetchlands, as the next round was about to start.
Bye, 1:0.


G2, Luke, Doran
g1: I kept a four lands, Waste, Stifle, Ponder hand. Been on the play and unwilling to see any Waste-only mulligan today, I kept the hand after some hesitation.
I Stifled Luke's fetch, then I Pondered into another Stifle. And guess what use I found for it... a fetchland! But Lukáš found a land, but it was just a Waste-land. I Wasted it, losing some dual to it, but nvm, I had abundance of land, plethora of them and a real neoplasm. Or is it pleonasm?
Well, but I still had no threat and the effective mulligan started to be annoying, esp. as I drawn land after land. Lukáš played DRs which I Bolted (yay!) and then Jitte that I Dazed. (Magic is funny.) Finally Delver showed up and then BS brought Goose and then the light side won.
sb: I took out Forces with the idea that there will be enough of card disadvantage even without them. I kept Dazes, though. They're tempo. I shaved some Ponder and soemthing else. In went Needles, Rough, Submerges, etc. I'm not sure now.
g2: Of proactive cars, I played Mongoose, Goyf and Ponder. of reactvie cars, I played Daze (on Choke, kekeke) Submerge (on DRS), Bolt (on Goyf who together with the previously mentioned DRS gang-blocked my own Goyf), Stifle (Nihil spellbomb); then I rushed out of cards and although I managed to Snare the Confi, I lost to Ling. Souls.
g3: I kept a risky hand (three creatures, Bolt, Submerge, but no cantrip nor green) and was punished for it pretty fast. AD the Delver, Mystic>BSkull, Choke; gg, thx, cya, bb.
Loss, 1:1.


R3, Tom, Affi
I had Delver and Mongoose, but was stuck on one land. My opponent had Skirge, Pest and some artifacts like Drum. Ponder bricked and I still was on one land when he played both Frogmyte and Ravager. I tired another Delver and lost when he finally realized that he may sac the Ravager to feed Skirge. He even played it bad so my alphastrike would be enough if only only I'd drawn the stupid Volc to aim one Bolt to the dome.
sb: out two Stifles and two Froces, in KGrip, Grudge, 2x Needle, maybe something else.
g2: I had fast Goyf, but his draw was faster no less with multiple Pests, Frogs and an Ornithopter in the opening turns. I had pretty powerfull hand and just waited for a nice 2-for-1. But he decided to not block my mere 2/3 Goyf, so I just Bolted Frogmyte (the biggest threat so far) and on my next turn I even FBed two Pests.I preemptively Needled the Ravager, then I Snared the Plating and then I played Goyfannd then I won.
g3: This one was ugly. Though I was a bit behind due to being on draw, I gained a control of mu once I Pierced a Thoughtcast and then Grudged his only land. BS found Delver which I flipped fast, then on my 13 life (and his 22; yes, a Skirge again) I took the match over with Goyf.
Note: True Etched Champion is realy annoying.
Win, 2:1.


R4, Jiří, ANT
g1: Delver. BS Dazed, Delver flip, Delver. BS Pierced. Second Delver flipped. Third Delver. Eight Goblins. Delver flip, gg.
sb: out two Mongooses (I too twok Roughs), 2 FBs, 2 Bolts. In the named Roguhs and then 2 REB, 2 Flusterstorms.
g2: I played Delver. BS I Blasted, then another BS I Dazed but Jiří had fetch open... ok, I had the Stifle. I Snared the IT. I Flussed DRit. I pierced Duress. I won with the loneDelver.
Win, 3:1.


Quite solid result with a pretty nice fourth place that left me with no prize.
Magic is fun.

http://marycigarettes.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/tumblr_mtg3ipzbec1rlb9r9o1_1280.jpg?w=640&h=480

MVP: Hm... Hard to decide. I think I like all the creatures, but Mongoose was outshined today. No Miracles and all-day stalls/combo are not the best environment for it. Also, double Nihil spellbomb sucks. Therefore no honeybadger jokes, sorry. Lets say that the MVp was the guy who bought two another Deltas and then even returned for a pack of Storm cards. :smile:

Overall feeling: Deck is solid. I need to be more courageous with the mulligans, though. Otoh, the deck plays so little "real and colored" lands that it's not hard to Waste-mull into oblivion. I still don't miss gy hate. I'd love to squeeze in Cage, thouh.Also, I don't have a smallest clue what I'm doing when siding. I thnk I need to develop/steal some goos sb strategy and stay true to it. The usual "sb out ths against that" doesn't really help when one doesn't know what he¨s doing.
I gotta stay true to the deck, butit shouldn't be hard after I sell everything else.

[Sasan]

@Bed Decks Player: Thanks for your report.

Ryan has a nice article with his opinion on RUG Delver in the current TNN metagame.

http://www.quietspeculation.com/2013/11/legacy-updates-with-regard-to-rug-delver/

A real good article. His conclusion is that RUG Delver will profit from the new meta.

With combo rising and clunky midrange decks relying on cc3 spells we should be really happy now.

[Borealis]

Nice article, thanks the for link Sasan.

While I'm not particularly thrilled about True-Name Nemesis as a card that exists, I'm not terribly worried about it either. There are already so many cards in the format that we can't let resolve, that another one really doesn't matter all that much. The fact that we can just up our Red Blast count, which is still very relevant against a lot of other decks, just makes it easier to ignore TNNs and keep doing what we do. I think Overturf makes some good points in his article about the metagame evolution going forward, and I'm glad someone is thinking ahead for us.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

While I'm not particularly thrilled about True-Name Nemesis as a card that exists, I'm not terribly worried about it either.
Well put!

Sasan, I liked the linked article, thanks!

[Dzra]

With combo rising and clunky midrange decks relying on cc3 spells we should be really happy now.

Given how RUG mirrors tend to revolve around Submerging and pushing past opposing Goyfs, I'm not sure that I'd be happy to play against a near-mirror like UWR that not only has real removal for RUG's Goyfs but replaces their own Goyfs with lifelinkers and unanswerable threats. UWR's threats are admittedly slower and less efficient, but they are much more powerful and completely unphased by Deathrite Shaman and other graveyard hate. They are even on-color to run the best graveyard hate in the format. It'll be interesting to see how the meta ends up panning out.

[Sasan]

But Goyfs are not weak to REBs so that makes up a bit that Submerge is not active versus Patriot. Patriot is not a mirror game by the way. It has evolved to a blade midrange deck with Delvers. With Grudges and REBs the matchup is totally winnable. Just like you have to answer Cliques/Snappys now they have Delvers/TNN. The deck has not become faster. It is just Esper Stoneblade minus black, cliques, Jaces and Snappys plus Bolts/Delvers.

[BlueP.]

I agree with the fact that RUG Delver is not as bad as some players pretend in the current metagame. It feels that the rise of combo decks makes it a relevant choice. TNN is raceable and deniable, even if it's obviously a problematic card which leads obviously to akward situations (ie. countering RIP, facing TNN next turn. Probe helped me setting up my counters there, however I tried Snare et more removal instead of it which happened to be very effective against SFM and other "must-be-dealt-with" guys, again I don't know which card is currently better right now so I play what I feel more comfortable with). That being said, I have some problems with certain Merfolks builds. I played against a standard Merfolk deck, without Reejerey and packing 2 phantasmal Image and 4 Nemesis instead. I played several games. Without Nemesis in hand it's like the good old MU, tough but winnable the usual way. But Aether Vial and TNN backed up with with Images was a nightmare in most of the games, I felt it greatly lessens our chances of winning. I didn't fear TNN in Blade Control / Bant/ Patriot decks but here it was different. I was wondering if you guys experienced the same thing. I know that Merfolks is not currently one of the most important threats to deal with, but it has a significant place in my meta.
I play 2 Pyro / 1 REB, 2 Grudges in Sideboard, bringing obviously the 3 REB effects, still reluctant to board the two grudges (didn't see Jitte during the games).

[Sasan]

Always board in Grudges versus Vial decks (Merfolk, Slivers, Goblins, DnT). It is a must!

Then the MU becomes far better.

[BlueP.]

Always board in Grudges versus Vial decks (Merfolk, Slivers, Goblins, DnT). It is a must!

Then the MU becomes far better.

Used to play with only one Grudge before and it was fine. But I definitely agree about boarding the two, keeping counters for what comes next to the vial...

[umbowta]

So I just jumped back into playing legacy after a long break and chose to play RUG. So far I've had no problem beating Patriot or UR Delver in the face of TNN. In fact I've lost exactly one game to double TNN but still won the match.
OmniTell, otoh, is giving me fits. Whats the best approach to that matchup? Any advice would be appreciated.

[Lord Seth]

Should the topic title be changed to have the name "RUG Delver" somewhere in it? I'm not saying actually just replace it with RUG Delver, but it could be fit under the "a.k.a." part, as it's what the deck seems to most commonly be called right now.

[Tormod]

Should the topic title be changed to have the name "RUG Delver" somewhere in it? I'm not saying actually just replace it with RUG Delver, but it could be fit under the "a.k.a." part, as it's what the deck seems to most commonly be called right now.

No, screw those SCG deck names. :cool:

[ShiftyKapree]

What do you guys think of one remove soul or a negate in the maindeck?

[trollking21]

What do you guys think of one remove soul or a negate in the maindeck?

Whatever your playing to solve with either of those cards, I feel like there is a better card. What are you trying to fix with those

[Sasan]

What do you guys think of one remove soul or a negate in the maindeck?

Read the good old card Counterspell, become aware of the fact that we run blue only lands and come back to the thread to tell us that your idea is not good in legacy. Counterspell is that much better than your narrow cards :)

[Borealis]

Always board in Grudges versus Vial decks (Merfolk, Slivers, Goblins, DnT). It is a must!

Then the MU becomes far better.

I'm not 100% sure about this. I also haven't played a lot of Tribal decks lately, in the past it's been mostly limited to Goblins and Merfolk. In both cases, I don't think I sided in more than 1 Ancient Grudge (or maybe Krosan Grip) for fear of drawing dead cards.

Against DnT, or any deck where you are pretty sure they will also be running equipment, obviously the artifact destruction is good. But siding it in solely for vial... I'm just not sold on this. Drawing Ancient Grudge after turn 2/3 just doesn't seem great to me. Assuming you have enough other proactive cards to fight their permanents, I think it can be correct to leave out the artifact killers against non-Jitte decks, especially on the draw.

[Sasan]

I'm not 100% sure about this. I also haven't played a lot of Tribal decks lately, in the past it's been mostly limited to Goblins and Merfolk. In both cases, I don't think I sided in more than 1 Ancient Grudge (or maybe Krosan Grip) for fear of drawing dead cards.

Against DnT, or any deck where you are pretty sure they will also be running equipment, obviously the artifact destruction is good. But siding it in solely for vial... I'm just not sold on this. Drawing Ancient Grudge after turn 2/3 just doesn't seem great to me. Assuming you have enough other proactive cards to fight their permanents, I think it can be correct to leave out the artifact killers against non-Jitte decks, especially on the draw.

The Vial decks win by overwhelming the opponent with their ressources advantage. Either they can cast more spells a turn or use Vial for their creatures and their mana (Ports/Wastelands) to attack our mana base. In both cases the results for us are devastating. With an early Grudge for their Vial we have a real edge. I would board in 3 Grudges if I had them in the sb - and JUST for Vial. Just play the tribal matchups and come back and report if I am right.

[Borealis]

The Vial decks win by overwhelming the opponent with their ressources advantage. Either they can cast more spells a turn or use Vial for their creatures and their mana (Ports/Wastelands) to attack our mana base. In both cases the results for us are devastating. With an early Grudge for their Vial we have a real edge. I would board in 3 Grudges if I had them in the sb - and JUST for Vial. Just play the tribal matchups and come back and report if I am right.

This is partially why I am skeptical: Drawing a dead Ancient Grudge (either because they've already gotten too much value off their Vial, or they never drew one) is a dangerous game to play with a deck that denies resources. Having to Brainstorm it away is bad enough, but if you simply can't use the Grudge at all, you're effectively taking a late-game mulligan.

Also, you make a good point: boarding into 3 Grudges is almost better than 1-2, since you have a better chance of drawing it while it still matters. Just siding into the 1 or 2 that most of us run seems worse, as you aren't as likely to have it in your opener.

I just was under the impression from my previous experience that killing an early Vial wasn't worth drawing a dead card late. Certainly the uprising of Death and Taxes and the printing of TNN affects that experience though. I'll test out the Ancient Grudges when I get the chance. Unfortunately, it's hard to find a good Legacy player around here, let alone one that runs something Tribal.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I agree with Sasan, the importance of Vial in the mentioned mus is obvious and we should get rid of it asap before the opponent gets valuable momentum swing out of it and before he pulls trick after trick as we don't know beforehand what jumps out of Vial
Also, sometimes it happenes that Vial is their only source of "damage"; once we exchange Swords, Bolts and Wastelands, both decks are in topdeck mode and now all the cmc3 Crusaders/Wisps that would otherwise ruin your day just sit motionless in their hand.

[Ziveeman]

If you are having trouble with Vial but don't want to play Ancient Grudges, try Pithing Needle. Invalidates all Vials from that point on but is also applicable in other situations (naming Jitte/Port vs Death and Taxes, Krenko/Siege Gang vs Goblins, whatever)

[Bed Decks Palyer]

If you are having trouble with Vial but don't want to play Ancient Grudges, try Pithing Needle. Invalidates all Vials from that point on but is also applicable in other situations (naming Jitte/Port vs Death and Taxes, Krenko/Siege Gang vs Goblins, whatever)

Oh, I forgot: I also play Needle. This way I got three to four cards to fight the Vial while not having a completely dead card in late game. (Against Gobbos don't bring Grip)

[KobeBryan]

Has anyone tried out rancor yet to trample over those 3/1 creatures.

[Borealis]

Ouch. Rancor just... isn't quite Tier 1 playable. As an answer to TNN, it's barely passable (at best allowing your Goyfs to squeeze through a few points of damage while you still lose to Jitte/Skull triggers). As a generic card that we have access too, it's just not strong enough to justify taking up SB slots I'm afraid.

Back to the Vial conversation, Pithing Needle is a very good recommendation. I don't run them currently, but I could see squeezing 1 into my SB if I expected a lot of Vial decks. I like Needle a lot more than Grudge, as it's rarely dead, fights other problem cards in the matchup, and also costs less.

To be clear, I'm almost always siding in Artifact hate for DnT, as there are multiple targets. Against Gobbos and Fish though, I'm still not certain I want to throw in my 1 Ancient Grudge as a miser card for their Vial. I will test it out when given the chance though. In anything, I can cut an extra Force of Will for the Ancient Grudge when I'm on the draw, since Force is somewhat dead when they already have Vial.

[BlueP.]

I tried again to play against Merfolks with TNN, DnT and Goblins. Boarding all grudges (2 in my SB) each time. Played 9 matches, 3 against each archetype. Won 7. You need Grudges vs. DnT, obvious fact. Against Merfolks and Goblins, I've come to the conclusion that I really don't care about drawing a dead card later if grudge did its work destroying vial btw turn 2-4. Sideboarding more Grudges also allows us to sideboard out counterspells comfortably, blanked by cavern of souls in the Goblin MU. I plan to play Destructive Revelry. The ability to destroy enchantments still dealing 2 damage is atttractive, but I feel like the casting cost of RG will be annoying, and losing flashback is a relevant downside. I will test it in a meta filled with tribal decks, miracles and blade decks.

[Water_Wizard]

So I just jumped back into playing legacy after a long break and chose to play RUG. So far I've had no problem beating Patriot or UR Delver in the face of TNN. In fact I've lost exactly one game to double TNN but still won the match.
OmniTell, otoh, is giving me fits. Whats the best approach to that matchup? Any advice would be appreciated.

Land an early Delver, ride it to victory. Counter their cantrips. As the game progresses, your taxing counterspells become less effective. You've got 4 FOW, 4 Daze, 2-3 REB/PB, 2-3 Spell Pierce, and Flusterstorm, if you run it.

In order to go off, the Omni tell player is going to need - 1 Show and Tell, 1 Omniscience (or other threat), 1 Enter the Infinite or Cunning Wish (for use w/ Omniscience), and 4-5 counterspells/cantrips/lands.

You've got to land a threat early, deny mana through Wasteland and Stifle, and make sure that you win the counterspell war. Part of winning the counterspell war is countering cantrips to prevent the OmniTell player from gathering combo/protection pieces.

If OmniTell is a huge pain, you can always increase your REB/PB count or run specific hate like V. Clique (in response to Show and Tell), Gilded Drake (steals creatures, but not Omniscience), or Venser, Shaper Savant.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Ouch. Rancor just... isn't quite Tier 1 playable. As an answer to TNN, it's barely passable (at best allowing your Goyfs to squeeze through a few points of damage while you still lose to Jitte/Skull triggers). As a generic card that we have access too, it's just not strong enough to justify taking up SB slots I'm afraid.

Back to the Vial conversation, Pithing Needle is a very good recommendation. I don't run them currently, but I could see squeezing 1 into my SB if I expected a lot of Vial decks. I like Needle a lot more than Grudge, as it's rarely dead, fights other problem cards in the matchup, and also costs less.

To be clear, I'm almost always siding in Artifact hate for DnT, as there are multiple targets. Against Gobbos and Fish though, I'm still not certain I want to throw in my 1 Ancient Grudge as a miser card for their Vial. I will test it out when given the chance though. In anything, I can cut an extra Force of Will for the Ancient Grudge when I'm on the draw, since Force is somewhat dead when they already have Vial.

I thought about Rancor, but the fact that it cannot enchant Mongoose is more than enough to not play the card. Btw, I'm considering to build a RUG Hexproof just for the trollz-lolz, but it's a different story...

Pithing Needle is good for Liliana, DRS, Vial, Jitte, JTMS, Pernicious Deed and sometimes Tarn/Delta. Together with Grudge (that hits Defense Grid) they have lots of applications and if not for the Counterbalance, Batterskull and Rest in Peace,c I'd play two of them... but this way I need one KGrip, sadly.

I'd take misers Grudge everyday all-day against botht Goblinbs and Folks. It hits Vial which is 100% guaranteed they'll have, moreover you may destroy Jitte/Relic.



I tried again to play against Merfolks with TNN, DnT and Goblins. Boarding all grudges (2 in my SB) each time. Played 9 matches, 3 against each archetype. Won 7. You need Grudges vs. DnT, obvious fact. Against Merfolks and Goblins, I've come to the conclusion that I really don't care about drawing a dead card later if grudge did its work destroying vial btw turn 2-4. Sideboarding more Grudges also allows us to sideboard out counterspells comfortably, blanked by cavern of souls in the Goblin MU. I plan to play Destructive Revelry. The ability to destroy enchantments still dealing 2 damage is atttractive, but I feel like the casting cost of RG will be annoying, and losing flashback is a relevant downside. I will test it in a meta filled with tribal decks, miracles and blade decks.
Bolded part QFT.
Destructive Revelry seems good and I may consider switching/adding it to my sb as long as RiP, Jitte, CotV, BSkull or CB remains presented in my meta. The two dmg hardly ever matters (yes, I know it's good, but w/e), but the flexibility and instant nature (unlike Hull Breach) makes it very interesting choice. I hate to lose flashback, otoh, against non-MUD decks this isn't THAT needed.


@ WW's S&T analyze: well written!

[Bed Decks Palyer]

On Saturday I played Thrash Can in what has been a minor dissapointment.

List:
//Qty Name
// Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
//\\
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
//\\
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Forked Bolt
//\\
// Sideboard
2 Rough // Tumble
3 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sulfur Elemental


A phone by Slosh woke me up not an hour before the tournament started. I rushed to the lgs half asleep, hungry and not really clean, as I just thrown myself into the exact dress I was in a pub day before. I had troubles with parking, too, and thus came late to what was an seven-men-one-woman tournament due to the GP Vienna being at the same time.


R1, Tom, Maverick, on draw
g1: I kept seven, he mulled to five. Needless to say, he was really behind. He playeed just Safekeeper of which I didn't take care, Thalia that I Sanred, and a Confi that was Bolted. Delver, double Goyf and Mongoose got there, though delver was StPed.
sb: out some mix of Dazes, Pierces and FoWs, in Roughs, Submerges, Needles and Grudge. I kept Snare as it hits Thalia and SFM.
g2: We both mulled to six. SFM found Jitte and then I Bolted him. I had a brainfart, though, and let Tom untap, so he SFMed Jitte. His other notable cards were Safekeeper and Finks, than he lost to triple Mongoose and SulfEle.
Win, 1:1.


R2, Slosh, ANT, on draw
g1: We both kept our seven, Martin led with GP, CT (double Goyf). I got Mongoose and lately Goyf, somewhere during the game I FoWed Duress before I won.
sb: out 2 Mongooses and 2 FBs, in Pyroblasts and F-storms.
g2: I Fowed CT, then Martin Extirpated FoW and made ten Hoblins. I lost this one.
sb: in two Roughs, out the remaining Mongooses.
g3: I led with Delver but Slosh had Bolt ready. I played two Goyfs, FoWed CT and after he got X. Swarm out, I Pondered into three interesting cards of which I kept Waste to kill his Volc. Thankfully he was unable to combo, so not even XS heleped him.
Win, 2:1


R3, Vojta, D&T, on draw
g1: W both kept our seven. Vojta played MoR that I FBed, then he got a Daze-owl which I Dazed, then we exchanged Wastes. Jitte I FoWed, then I got Goyf while he SFMed for BSK. I Bolted Mystic, then I Bolted Crusader, then He StPed Delver and then after we exchanged another pair of Wastes, I failed to find another removal to remove another Crusader.
sb: in Needles, Grudge and KGrip, Roughs and Elementals, out Dazes and FoWs. I kept SPierce and Snare for RiP, with latter been good for Thalia/SFM, of course.
g2: I started with mongoose. I Snared Knight of White Orchid, then Vojta Wasted my Volc. I Needled Wasteland as I had only Trop and no Stifle. He plyed RIP, I had Delver and Sulfur Elemental which he STtPed. I Stifled one SoFI trigger and Grudged BSK, but lost to the SoFI nevertheless.
Loss, 2:1


R4, Martin, Nic Fit, on draw again and again and again...
Martin CTed my Stifle, thankfully I got another one and Stifled his mana development... esp. after I Wasted his USea. Delver flipped of Bolt, then Mongoose joined the party. I Bolted veteran to open the road. I Snared Stryx, GSZ found another Vet and then Pahntasmal Image made itself a Mongoose. FB killed Stryx and then after a third Stryx I finally lost with Martin on eight and me on eighteen and completely depleted.
sb: Submerges in, out w/e, maybe FoWs
g2: I Pondered and bricked, then I FoWed Veteran and Wasted Martin's Trop. Goyf showed up, so did Vet and after Waste->Bayou and Stifle->Vet, I won.
sb: IDK, but I gues I switched FoWs and Dazes.
g3: I had fast Delver and I Dazed a Stryx. (Guess I did not switch the FoWs...) Delver was Dismembered, then Stryx etb. I BSed, to which Martin responded with N. Thief. Luckily I had FoW. (Looks like I did something silly while sbing.) I Ponderd into nothing, then I Wasted his Tower and scooped after an Intuition fro triple EW.
Horrible matchup.
Loss, 2:2.


Hm. I was third, though. At least I think so.
Things I'd change: I think that the 2dmg bolt the RFGs the target might be used instead of FB. But mostly I decided I won't care much of Nic Fit, a horrendeous yet rare matchup.
I also think about Assault // Battery which is a Sorc Bolt no worse than FB, or a crappy creature in time of need for a crappy creature. It kills the DRS just like FB and is quite the same in D+T mu, although it's worse against active MoR but w/e, this mu is won by SulfEle, Rough and Grudge.
EDIT: Another interesting card is Boom / Bust; early on it's a Stone Rain (or crappy Raze), in late game it may win against UW Miracles or Nic Fit. Sadly it's too expensive, but with all our duals and unused Wastes, this might be playable. But Winter Orb is better and yet it's unplayed.

[Borealis]

Pithing Needle is good for Liliana, DRS, Vial, Jitte, JTMS, Pernicious Deed and sometimes Tarn/Delta. Together with Grudge (that hits Defense Grid) they have lots of applications and if not for the Counterbalance, Batterskull and Rest in Peace,c I'd play two of them... but this way I need one KGrip, sadly.

...also Mother of Runes, Rishadan Port, Stoneforge, Wasteland, just to name a few more out of DnT. I'm also running a KGrip in my board, and I like that it can come in against SneakShow and OmniTell. But I'll find a spot to fit the 1st Needle in my board for testing purposes.


I'd take misers Grudge everyday all-day against botht Goblinbs and Folks. It hits Vial which is 100% guaranteed they'll have, moreover you may destroy Jitte/Relic.


Again, I'll take your advice to heart, but still disagree on the 100% guarantee. Tribal decks normally have no way to dig into their deck, and they can't just mulligan every hand without Vial, nor is it very relevant past the first few turns of the game. But if Grudge really is that good, as consensus here says it is, then it's worth having it even when they don't present a target.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Again, I'll take your advice to heart, but still disagree on the 100% guarantee. Tribal decks normally have no way to dig into their deck, and they can't just mulligan every hand without Vial, nor is it very relevant past the first few turns of the game. But if Grudge really is that good, as consensus here says it is, then it's worth having it even when they don't present a target.

I was not precise - I meant it's 100% guaranteed they'll haveit in deck. Not in play, of course. :smile:

[Borealis]

I was not precise - I meant it's 100% guaranteed they'll haveit in deck. Not in play, of course. :smile:

Ah, roger dodger.

[BVB09]

Hi guys, I posted some days ago, thanks for all the answers :)
I wanted to ask your for some advice about my meta. I'm playing the standard list with 2 Pierces, 2 Probes, 1 Chain lighting and 1 Forked Bolt in the flexible slots.
My SB is:

3 Pyroblast
3 Submerge
2 Rough
2 Graffdigger's Cage
1 Life from the Loam
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge

My meta consists on a lot of creature decks, not so aggro but mindrange, some control decks and little combo.
Also I have my doubts on how to sideboard. I have lots of cards in the SB against, let's say, Maverick or Blade control, s it correct to side in 8-10 cards or does it affect the consistency of the deck? Which cards are the better to side out? I normally take out the counterspells.
Thank you, I would appreciate any advice :)

[Sasan]

Hi guys, I posted some days ago, thanks for all the answers :)
I wanted to ask your for some advice about my meta. I'm playing the standard list with 2 Pierces, 2 Probes, 1 Chain lighting and 1 Forked Bolt in the flexible slots.
My SB is:

3 Pyroblast
3 Submerge
2 Rough
2 Graffdigger's Cage
1 Life from the Loam
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge

My meta consists on a lot of creature decks, not so aggro but mindrange, some control decks and little combo.
Also I have my doubts on how to sideboard. I have lots of cards in the SB against, let's say, Maverick or Blade control, s it correct to side in 8-10 cards or does it affect the consistency of the deck? Which cards are the better to side out? I normally take out the counterspells.
Thank you, I would appreciate any advice :)

hey you can read my primer in the bUrg tempo
thread with detailed sideboard guide. It is really close to RUG Delver so you can easy adapt that sideboard plan for RUG, especially you get to know which cards are bad in which matchups and can be boarded out.

[BVB09]

hey you can read my primer in the bUrg tempo
thread with detailed sideboard guide. It is really close to RUG Delver so you can easy adapt that sideboard plan for RUG, especially you get to know which cards are bad in which matchups and can be boarded out.

Thanks I'm reading it :)
Any comments on the pther questions? Thank you

[lavafrogg]

What a shameless plug Sasan!

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Hi guys, I posted some days ago, thanks for all the answers :)
I wanted to ask your for some advice about my meta. I'm playing the standard list with 2 Pierces, 2 Probes, 1 Chain lighting and 1 Forked Bolt in the flexible slots.
My SB is:

3 Pyroblast
3 Submerge
2 Rough
2 Graffdigger's Cage
1 Life from the Loam
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge

My meta consists on a lot of creature decks, not so aggro but mindrange, some control decks and little combo.
Also I have my doubts on how to sideboard. I have lots of cards in the SB against, let's say, Maverick or Blade control, s it correct to side in 8-10 cards or does it affect the consistency of the deck? Which cards are the better to side out? I normally take out the counterspells.
Thank you, I would appreciate any advice :)
I'm super confused by Jace. Not that it's bad card, but it's so anti-tempo choice...

[Isre Morn]

I'm super confused by Jace. Not that it's bad card, but it's so anti-tempo choice...

Well, seems to work for some players as a mid-/lategame strategy in mu's that tend to go longer and don't attack/denial your manabase that extreme way. Others have Sylvan Library in that slot.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Well, seems to work for some players as a mid-/lategame strategy in mu's that tend to go longer and don't attack/denial your manabase that extreme way. Others have Sylvan Library in that slot.

This is what I understand, but I'm still sooo unsure about it's includement. :smile:
However, unlike Library it's a wincon that doesn't eat away your life total, and in mus like Storm, it may win the game on it's own. Especially mixed with LftL, it may work wonders - you got both mana for Jace, and also pretty strong Jacestorms, if only you dredge whenever needed.
So yeah, definitely use him, if he suits yourstyle.
Btw, isn't three REBs one too many? TNN or not, this seems like an overkill.

[Isre Morn]

Especially mixed with LftL, it may work wonders - you got both mana for Jace, and also pretty strong Jacestorms, if only you dredge whenever needed.
Uhuuuuuuuuu... That's devilstyle, very hot. You assure your mana base, do the wasteland-lock and chuck the crap away into grave for further brainstorming. I Like.


Btw, isn't three REBs one too many? TNN or not, this seems like an overkill.
So far 2 Pyros are enough for me with TNN in the meta. You still have Dazes/FoWs and Probe for better rating.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Uhuuuuuuuuu... That's devilstyle, very hot. You assure your mana base, do the wasteland-lock and chuck the crap away into grave for further brainstorming. I Like.


:smile:
Yes, people like this. Although it wokrs better in UGx Intuition-Loam, it may still pretty powerful in RUG, too.

[cheerios]

Has anyone tested the SB Price of Progress in this meta? Seems to be quite good if the number of midrange decks increase in the coming months.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Has anyone tested the SB Price of Progress in this meta? Seems to be quite good if the number of midrange decks increase in the coming months.

There's a trouble with timing. We're not Burn that may play PoP nearly anytime, but we need to Daze our Islands or not play them at all, etc. Ok, against decks that have no clock, we may easily swallow four to six dmg, but it is still a bit dangerous. Moreover I'm not sure how it goes with our Wasteland plan. You want to cut the JUND/JUNK/Rock/etc. from mana and apply pressure in the meantime before they stabilize and get from our "soft lock". Early PoP doesn't help you in any way and in fact it's a dead card.

Contrary to Burn, whose plan is to... welll, to simply burn, and whose pilots do not touch the opponents' manabase (ok, sans Moon) and may easily play turn-three PoP FTW, our plan is different and we win not on the stack (yes, I know, kinda oversimplification when discussing blue.dec, but you get my point), like Burn does in imma-slow-combo fashion; we win in the red zone. This means we need to have clear coast for our threats to deal the initial ten+ dmg (or even finish the opponent completely with creatures), and this open road is buldozered by Stifling their fetch, Wasting their dual, Bolting their DRS, Dazing their Hymn, Snaring their Goyf, Piercing their Liliana and FoWing their KotR. There's no place for PoP in this plan/sequence and every opening seven where you stare at PoP, is a de facto mulligan.

Moreover, to reliably kill with it, I fear that you need at least two of them (to be sure you get one) or maybe even three (to be sure you get enough of them). This might be troublesome not only because of the self-inflicted dmg alone, but also because of opposing Punishing Fire/GotBW engine, Goyfs and/or Stalkers, BSkulls, etc.; in short: anything that deals damage to you either reliably or in big chunks or both. Not to mention that the big amounts of narrow cards might complicate your sbing, esp. considering the above paragraph about our gameplan and the fact that PoP doesn't support it at all.

I'd be very interested in your test results, though, because I see the great potential for great damage, so PoP can't be easily dismissed. My point is that to really analyze the card one should really analyze it - yeah, someties I like to use the politicians' slang - and not to overlook some o its downsides. But if you really think that the swinging effect of PoP is what the deck needs once it gets past the point of winning in certain matchups, don't hesitate to try it! I already thought about the card (not because I'm such a genius, but I've seen it in some list), yet considering how it directly interferes with our main gameplan (or better said, how our gameplan directly interferes with the card), I never decided to use it in fear of bad/mediocre results.
Surprise me, please! :smile:

BDP

[MethadronGer]

I'm not sure about my SB for the next turney. Atm it looks like this
: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 1 Izzet Charm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Rough // Tumble

I'm thinking about adding 2 needles but for what? Cutting the extractions?

[Blitzkreuz]

Maybe for charm? Why do you run it in the sb? I mean I play one main,too , but that's because it is flexible. Postboard there are better cards I think

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[Bed Decks Palyer]

Maybe for charm? Why do you run it in the sb? I mean I play one main,too , but that's because it is flexible. Postboard there are better cards I think

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This. If I'd ever play Charm (which is quite possible, it's a good card), I won't be having it in sb, it's a maindeck spell. But even if you cut it, you'd have just one slot for Needle. Unless you hack into the gy hate, you can't get any other slots. But if your meta warrants the grave hate, then I wouldn't recommend that, esp. as both Cage (GSZ/NO/CT/Icho/Narcomoeba/DReturn/Reanimate/Entomb) and Extraction (CT/Icho/Narcomoeba/DReturn/Reanimate/IT/Doomsday) are pretty versatile.

Sent from my bed fighting the flu.

[MethadronGer]

I'll cut the charm and one extraction for the needles I think.

[Sturtzilla]

So I have come back to RUG after some experimentation playing other decks. I have been pretty happy with the results. I have gone 3-1 both local tournaments in the past two weeks. This week I played against Pox (2-0), Shardless BUG (0-2), Tin Fins (2-1), and RUG (2-1). I played a few extra games with my Shardless opponent and out of 4 games we each took 2. I think the hands that I kept during the actual tournament were a little slow and as such allowed him to establish a board which stopped me from clocking him. Overall I have been really happy with the deck. I would like to say that while many people are jumping ship from RUG it remains a solid deck with a great clock and disruptive elements for just about any match up you can face. A lot of playing this deck comes down to knowing what you need in a given match up.

Edit: As for the current discussion of Izzet Charm, I have run it in both the main and sideboard. I am of the opinion that there are just better cards for either slot. Figuring out what belongs in your maindeck flex slots and the composition of your sideboard is largely a metagame issue that requires playing and tweaking.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Shardless BUG is sometimes pretty hard to defeat, they circumvent our manadenial with DRS, have lots of cheap CA, quite some removal, they attack our hand. Fortunately no one plays it in our lgs.
Izzet Charm seems good, it does two relevant things and one quite reasonable. Otoh, the cmc2 is what kills it for me.

[trollking21]

Shardless BUG is sometimes pretty hard to defeat, they circumvent our manadenial with DRS, have lots of cheap CA, quite some removal, they attack our hand. Fortunately no one plays it in our lgs.
Izzet Charm seems good, it does two relevant things and one quite reasonable. Otoh, the cmc2 is what kills it for me.

I would say all 3 modes are relevant, there are times in the late game where i would even loot, but i wouldn't pay 2 for any of the effects. While i see the upside of flexibility, none of the modes are particularly amazing, in my mind. I may just already have the primary uses fulfilled though by running 3 pierce and 2 forked bolt in my list.

[Blitzkreuz]

I once ran 2 charms but they felt to clunky, Cmc of 2 isnt that great I agree. But having one is, for me at least, great, because when I'm in topdeck mode I always find the wrong card: burn if I need to counter or vice versa. So as long as I have space in my board I will run it, because I was more often than not glad to have it.

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[BVB09]

I think Charm is too expensive for this deck. The card I like the least is Tarmogoyf, the CMC2 is more problematic than it may look. Even though It can't compare to Goyf as it's an instant, I wouldn't add more 2-drops, I have even cut my Fire // Ice to fit a second Forked Bolt (Meta choice, too many DRS/Mom's)
Once I saw a list wunning Cephalid Coliseum as land 19. It seemed like a great idea, I sometimes miss one more land that taps for mana and it's not a dead drawn most of the time. Has anyone tried it with success?

Edit: Considerong forled bolt is used 90% of the time on turn one (Mom, DRS, Hierarch...) and in the late game Chin Lighting is better (not against red decks) which of those would you run? Thanks

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I think Charm is too expensive for this deck. The card I like the least is Tarmogoyf, the CMC2 is more problematic than it may look. Even though It can't compare to Goyf as it's an instant, I wouldn't add more 2-drops, I have even cut my Fire // Ice to fit a second Forked Bolt (Meta choice, too many DRS/Mom's)
Once I saw a list wunning Cephalid Coliseum as land 19. It seemed like a great idea, I sometimes miss one more land that taps for mana and it's not a dead drawn most of the time. Has anyone tried it with success?

Edit: Considerong forled bolt is used 90% of the time on turn one (Mom, DRS, Hierarch...) and in the late game Chin Lighting is better (not against red decks) which of those would you run? Thanks

I'd play Colliseum in Vexing Thresh. Here it's a Wastelandable land that pings you, its effect might be used only once. What's nice that it dodges Choke and the draw effect is pretty powerful, unless you are in top deck mode.
i like the flexibility of Forked Bolt over Chain Lightning's increased dmg. Also, red decks are pretty usual.

[BVB09]

I'd play Colliseum in Vexing Thresh. Here it's a Wastelandable land that pings you, its effect might be used only once. What's nice that it dodges Choke and the draw effect is pretty powerful, unless you are in top deck mode.
i like the flexibility of Forked Bolt over Chain Lightning's increased dmg. Also, red decks are pretty usual.

I hadn't heard of that deck, could you share a list?
Thanks :)
That's true about Chain, they being able to kill my delver for free doesnt seem to deserve the extra damage...

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I hadn't heard of that deck, could you share a list?
Thanks :)
That's true about Chain, they being able to kill my delver for free doesnt seem to deserve the extra damage...

It's the RUG with LftL, Vexing Sphinx and Punishing Burnwillows that some dude played not long ago.
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-omniscience-punishing-fires-and-vexing-sphinx/
I'd love to build it once I lay my hands on last two Groves.

[BVB09]

It's the RUG with LftL, Vexing Sphinx and Punishing Burnwillows that some dude played not long ago.
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-omniscience-punishing-fires-and-vexing-sphinx/
I'd love to build it once I lay my hands on last two Groves.

Thanks! It looks interesting :) I thought it was Threshold with Vexing Devil or even Vexing Susher, but I didn't remember the good old Vexing Sphinx :smile:

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Thanks! It looks interesting :) I thought it was Threshold with Vexing Devil or even Vexing Susher, but I didn't remember the good old Vexing Sphinx :smile:

Yep, Sphinx kinda lost its fame after TNN was printed. :laugh:
It's very different build, though, but still lovely.

[Isre Morn]

Anyone of you imagined/wanted/tried more burn, especially for "instant speed" and "into face"? With instant speed you can hold up your mana till EOT or till a really crucial spell shows up a turn and still decide what you want to do in the end.

E.g. reaching that threshold spontaneously for mongoose. Having more instant burn for suprisingly hitting that residual damage in for gg. Having more instant answers for annoying creature showups in g1. double-bolting that goyf into grave in g1, and so on.

4 Lightning Bolt ist self-explanatory. I furthermore think of continuing more cc1 "instant answers" like 3-4 "Tarfires" or "Shocks".

You don't always have the desired 2 for 1 effect with Forked Bolt. In such a case like against DRS or SM sorcery speed is disadvantage. And for myself "Chain Lightning" or "Dismember" also suck for conceptional reasons.

There are a lot of matchups where Tarfire shines for us (Combo, UWR, Esper-/Deathblade, Tribal, DnT, Maverick, MUD, Affinity, blabla). If we face opposing goyfs it's just luck who lands the first or following goyfs and benefits from Tarfire. For those who are skeptic there's always Shock left; or Submerge in 2nd or 3rd game.

Those were my first thoughts in the last days. Am I to blindly this way? Thanks for your comments.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Forked Bolt is good for two reasons: the flexibility of split damage (mostly for MoR and Thalia, but also two Elves at one shot or Lackey plus whatever-the-unlucky-unLackey-1/1-Gobbo, Confidant and Delver, etc.); it also feeds our gy with sorcery, which honestly shouldn't be our main concern, but sometimes we are against decks that don't play any or may Grimly Lavamant them out. Theoretically this should be outweighed by Tarfire's secondary type, and I guess that more often than not it would be, as sorceries are far, far more common spells than tribals. So basically you switch versatility of split dmg (not that crucial after the decline of "random x/1" decks) and the sorcery Goyfs fodder, for the versatility of instant and a "Goyf fodder - tribal". I'm not sure what is better, but once again, I hardly ever have an urge for EOT burning anything, unless we're talking about three specific situations: I need to finish their attacker whom I chumped or Goyf-walled, I wish to kill DRS/SFM/Bob/Clique (that one especially!) and simultaneously I don't (have a time to) fear their countermagic, or I just burn them because matchup: ANT, Tress, etc.

Sorcery speed of FB is not that hurtful, considering we burn the important dudes (DRS) on sight (even on draw we simply many times can't wait) and often on our turn or better said: when our lands are untapped. You won't have the luxury to play around Dazes on opponents' turns and sometimes the one more card (be it counter in case they'd try to save their creature, or even something that basic like non-basic to fuel the burn), might be the reason to play the removal on our minphase. Yes, this all is contradictory, so I'll try to put it more reasonably:
- either you're in situation when you need to burn the DRS/Grim/Bob asap, which often means that it doesn't make any difference if it's instant or what (ok, unless that creature has haste) - you just tap your lands the moment you got them in play and untapped. Say it's your turn1 on draw, you just fetch-and-burn the ugly elf! There's no gain in the instanteous nature of Tarfire... or any other Shock.
- or you're in a situation when you may/must wait with your burn (typically your turn1 on-the-play play was followed by their turn1 DRS, or your turn1-go on draw was followed by their turn2 SFM/Bob) and that's when you'll wait in nine out of ten of cases, because you want to play around Daze, you want to draw (fodder for) Fow, you want to see the next card (it might be Grudge for Jitte that SFM found, or Needle for DRS, or w/e).
There are other corner case applications (wait, I'm not talking about instant dmg in combat, I'd hardly call it "corner case application"), like when you deliberately throw your burn into their counterspell on their EOT to force through something more important (maybe... bigger burn?), but mostly the need for instant dmg is in combat or in resp. to discard/Waste. I'm still not convinced that it's that important and that it warrants another burn, because...

...the more removal you play, the less flexible your deck is. Counters hit the creatures and spells but burn doesn't hit the both. (I'm not gonna write on the Dismember and similar stuff, you're quite right, esp. when it doesn't hit PWs.) Truth is that burn may remove or finish the creatures that made it through your counterwall, but there's nothing more annoying than watch them combo out while staring at a set of burn in your hand.

Last note: there are very few flexible slots in the deck, lets say one to three, maybe four cards. (I consider the fifth burn over the set of Bolts to be part of core.) It's pretty hard to trim the deck without hurting it, and I fear that burn no.7+ is very low on my list of priorities.

Good luck in testing, I'm interested in results!

Also, if I'd go that route, I'd consider cutting Stifles completel, as some quite solid lists did, to find those four slots. But maybe instead of this (as Stifle rocks), I'd just worsen my tribal matchup a bit while, throw away Goyfs (and the whole green) and switch to UR Delver.

EDIT:I realize that several of my points became far less important (e.g. playing around counterspells) once you add more removal, as you might smply throw the first burn into the void and then removae the DRS with the other; also the increased number of burn quite helps in case when you can't play around the counterspells at all and must win by sheer numbers. Yet the lost felxibilit and the worsened combo/control mathcup... is it worth the price? :eyebrow:

[poxy14]

I went back on my usual built of snareless/probeless and tested 3 tarfires main with 3 pierce main and it was incredible.
cut 1 goose for another goyf (since my list was 3goyf/1ooze main), dedication to grow a goyf was the plan.
Tested this deck vs of my team8 who pilots MAV decks (punishing/standard mav) real good. the deck felt more reach and more tempo as u can burn early drops EoT and never missed my old reliable forked bolts..goyfs was always early 4/5 with em tarfires, thus putting a lot of pressure for him to land KoTr early just to be met by dazes..with 7 burn spells, i think the deck went much faster..
I had a 1 foreign goyf in the set that i simulated if it was the 4th goose, though it can be targeted but some games that went the wire was for me reaching the finish line through 5-6 life points gained. Several games he managed a batterskull, but as long as u keep counterspells for stps..goyf will trump it.

it was a 5-1 result last night.. (rained hard and wasnt able to test them with our sbs coz we went out of the shop earlier)
this i will be bringing in the next tourneys (though im still thinking to go 2 tarfires/1fice) just to add a blue card for fow.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I went back on my usual built of snareless/probeless and tested 3 tarfires main with 3 pierce main and it was incredible.
cut 1 goose for another goyf (since my list was 3goyf/1ooze main), dedication to grow a goyf was the plan.
Tested this deck vs of my team8 who pilots MAV decks (punishing/standard mav) real good. the deck felt more reach and more tempo as u can burn early drops EoT and never missed my old reliable forked bolts..goyfs was always early 4/5 with em tarfires, thus putting a lot of pressure for him to land KoTr early just to be met by dazes..with 7 burn spells, i think the deck went much faster..
I had a 1 foreign goyf in the set that i simulated if it was the 4th goose, though it can be targeted but some games that went the wire was for me reaching the finish line through 5-6 life points gained. Several games he managed a batterskull, but as long as u keep counterspells for stps..goyf will trump it.

it was a 5-1 result last night.. (rained hard and wasnt able to test them with our sbs coz we went out of the shop earlier)
this i will be bringing in the next tourneys (though im still thinking to go 2 tarfires/1fice) just to add a blue card for fow.

Yep, against creature heavy decks this will work, but my main concern is combo and control (due to metagame, of course, and not only because of the most often matchups, but also due to the fact that combo-control meta will push the aggro decks to the lower tables), where three removal a bit suck. Otoh, it's just one burn more then usual (as i play 2 FBs) and they will feed the gy with sorcoeries, yo we'll end with pretty fast 5/6 Goyfs that kill in four turns.

I don't like Snareless builds. Snare is too good to not play it, at least as a one of.
Although it stops big part of D+T, the mere fact that they play Vial and SFM make it quite less appealling. otoh, they won't have it every time and post board I keep it for RiP (and Thalias when on draw).
Spell Snare is useful against every Goyf.dec, esp. Junk and such, where stopping Hymn, Goyf, Bob, Library, SFM or Jitte is crucial. In mirror you wanna win the Goyf war, although in the early game the most important is to not die to Stifle-Waste; post-board it's a dead card, of course, except if they take three Oozes..
Talking of ANT and such, they play IT, BW, CRit, each of them is worthy a counterspell, moreover Pierce might not work when they go LED, LED, IT, resp. Drit, resp. sac LEDs; that's when it's good to have unconditional counterspell... yet one that doesn't stop Duress, so maybe this is moot.
Elves and Goblins, though completely different, both completelly laugh at Snare, unless I'm missing something.
UW Miracles is where you want to stop RiP, CB (and ocassional Counterspell); Snare is very powerful here, as both cards stop you dead.
Maverick has pretty clogged the cmc2 slot, too. Btw, every SFM->BSkull defeats you. Snare's good to prevent it.
Burn. People play it and PoP exists. You won't have that many Dazes available...
Waht else?

But ok, if it works for you, fine. I'd be interested in your results, as I like the uniformity and consistency of your build. (I'd go as far as playing three Tarfires, no F/I.) Otoh, from my past experiences (back in time few months) I decided to not leave home withut Snares. Losing to Goyf is so humiliating...

[poxy14]

Yep, against creature heavy decks this will work, but my main concern is combo and control (due to metagame, of course, and not only because of the most often matchups, but also due to the fact that combo-control meta will push the aggro decks to the lower tables), where three removal a bit suck. Otoh, it's just one burn more then usual (as i play 2 FBs) and they will feed the gy with sorcoeries, yo we'll end with pretty fast 5/6 Goyfs that kill in four turns.
I don't like Snareless builds. Snare is too good to not play it, at least as a one of.

With the rise of tnn and combo decks in my meta lately, my snareless built was a meta call, upping my pierce MD to 3 and solely relying on burn vs resolved SFM and other annoying 2 drops. I did try ur list of 2snares/2pierce and was happy with it.. with lots of monouomnitell/show decks/belcher/ANT, i think i need to switch back to my older built for the meantime...

[Bed Decks Palyer]

With the rise of tnn and combo decks in my meta lately, my snareless built was a meta call, upping my pierce MD to 3 and solely relying on burn vs resolved SFM and other annoying 2 drops. I did try ur list of 2snares/2pierce and was happy with it.. with lots of monouomnitell/show decks/belcher/ANT, i think i need to switch back to my older built for the meantime...

Have you found andy special tech against TNN. No one plays it in our lgs, but if it shows up, I'd love to be a bit ahead. :smile:
For now I pack Stifles to cut them of important mana for long enough, and then counterspells for the actual spell, but is there anything else we can do? I fear our color combination is quite weak to it, unless we'll speak of specialized (and bad) crads like Curfew.

[poxy14]

Have you found andy special tech against TNN. No one plays it in our lgs, but if it shows up, I'd love to be a bit ahead. :smile:
For now I pack Stifles to cut them of important mana for long enough, and then counterspells for the actual spell, but is there anything else we can do? I fear our color combination is quite weak to it, unless we'll speak of specialized (and bad) crads like Curfew.

That's basically the gameplan vs TNN, slow them down to get to 3 manas, reserve dazes and fows by the time they would be able to cast it..
on sideboards, we have anti artifacts to deal with equipments, and 3 REBS/pyoblasts should be able to keep them TNN's checked..

[Sturtzilla]

Have you found any special tech against TNN. No one plays it in our lgs, but if it shows up, I'd love to be a bit ahead. :smile:
For now I pack Stifles to cut them of important mana for long enough, and then counterspells for the actual spell, but is there anything else we can do? I fear our color combination is quite weak to it, unless we'll speak of specialized (and bad) crads like Curfew.

You are correct a resolved True-Name Nemesis can be a pretty big issue for RUG. However we do have ways to keep it from hitting the board. I am not sure what exact match up you are looking at. However, I play-tested the UR (with TNN) versus RUG match up extensively both pre and post board last weekend. The final result from 12 games (6 pre board and 6 post board) was (11-1) in favor of RUG. I lost one game I lost was a 2 lander one fetch, wasteland, and all dudes. I think it was 2 Nimble Mongeese and 3 Goyf. Which if my opponent hadn't the Wasteland would have been hard for him to deal with. I think my opponent, while not a UR expert, is a very skilled player and I don't believe that he made any glaring play errors.

In this match up (which I would expect to be similar to many of the other TNN match ups), we have to apply pressure while prioritizing the attack on their mana base. So on the play an early Delver is great. However Stifling their fetches is also great. You want to keep them off of 3-4 mana. You want to keep you Dazes live. Daze and FoW are our only real trump cards to TNN and Daze can be easily played around/through with counter magic. In my testing games, my opponent managed to stick TNN a few times, however this does not end the game. If you have a transformed Delver, you can keep crashing through. If you have 2 or more ground guys, you can attack through, sometime losing a Goose. In our games, the TNN almost always had to hang back an hold a Goyf from killing him which led to draw-go type turns. I think this typically favored RUG.

For the post board games, +1 REB, +1 Pyroblast, +2 Flusterstorm; -4 Spell Pierce. The REB and Pyroblast give to hard counters to the TNN. Flusterstorms are just better counter spells when fighting these counter wars.

So I would have to agree with the previous comments. You need to attack their mana base and clock them. Post board 2-3 REB effects are probably where you want to be. Flusterstorms can also help ensure you win the permission wars. I like Ancient Grudge right now as well for the :w: build with the SFM package. TNN is not all that scary when it isn't holding a Jitte or a Sword of X and Y. Hope this helps!

[Manipulato]

You are correct a resolved True-Name Nemesis can be a pretty big issue for RUG. However we do have ways to keep it from hitting the board. I am not sure what exact match up you are looking at. However, I play-tested the UR (with TNN) versus RUG match up extensively both pre and post board last weekend. The final result from 12 games (6 pre board and 6 post board) was (11-1) in favor of RUG. I lost one game I lost was a 2 lander one fetch, wasteland, and all dudes. I think it was 2 Nimble Mongeese and 3 Goyf. Which if my opponent hadn't the Wasteland would have been hard for him to deal with. I think my opponent, while not a UR expert, is a very skilled player and I don't believe that he made any glaring play errors.

In this match up (which I would expect to be similar to many of the other TNN match ups), we have to apply pressure while prioritizing the attack on their mana base. So on the play an early Delver is great. However Stifling their fetches is also great. You want to keep them off of 3-4 mana. You want to keep you Dazes live. Daze and FoW are our only real trump cards to TNN and Daze can be easily played around/through with counter magic. In my testing games, my opponent managed to stick TNN a few times, however this does not end the game. If you have a transformed Delver, you can keep crashing through. If you have 2 or more ground guys, you can attack through, sometime losing a Goose. In our games, the TNN almost always had to hang back an hold a Goyf from killing him which led to draw-go type turns. I think this typically favored RUG.

For the post board games, +1 REB, +1 Pyroblast, +2 Flusterstorm; -4 Spell Pierce. The REB and Pyroblast give to hard counters to the TNN. Flusterstorms are just better counter spells when fighting these counter wars.

So I would have to agree with the previous comments. You need to attack their mana base and clock them. Post board 2-3 REB effects are probably where you want to be. Flusterstorms can also help ensure you win the permission wars. I like Ancient Grudge right now as well for the :w: build with the SFM package. TNN is not all that scary when it isn't holding a Jitte or a Sword of X and Y. Hope this helps!

How would you board against UWR Delver and the mirror? Otp and Otd?

http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/60971

I have headaches from perfect boarding Plans :rolleyes:
Against uwr i want to be prepared against TNN, RIP and SFM.
So I wanna board in 2 grudge 2 REB 1 Pyroblast (maybe 2 Flusterstorm too but pierce counters RIP), but what exactly should i board out? If I board out 4 Daze 4 FoW Im very soft to TNN, Snare counters SFM, Jitte and RIP, Stifle is great against his fetches and wastes???

Maybe just 4 FoW? Or the 2 pierce and 1 daze 1 fow? Im not really sure...
Would be great if you can help me here

[Bed Decks Palyer]

How would you board against UWR Delver and the mirror? Otp and Otd?

http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/60971

I have headaches from perfect boarding Plans :rolleyes:
Against uwr i want to be prepared against TNN, RIP and SFM.
So I wanna board in 2 grudge 2 REB 1 Pyroblast (maybe 2 Flusterstorm too but pierce counters RIP), but what exactly should i board out? If I board out 4 Daze 4 FoW Im very soft to TNN, Snare counters SFM, Jitte and RIP, Stifle is great against his fetches and wastes???

Maybe just 4 FoW? Or the 2 pierce and 1 daze 1 fow? Im not really sure...
Would be great if you can help me here

You may side out Forked Bolts. They don't kill TNN and you got Grudge and Snare for SFM searches. Other than that... idk. I'm also quite lost in this, normally we take out counterspells and bring in answers, but TNN changed this.
Maybe you may just take TNN answers, meaning cut the Bolts - what do you have them for, SFM? - and bring in things that stop TNN (counterspells) or that stop TNN from growin' big (anti-equipment cards) and those that stop them from shrinking your dudes (anti.RiP cards). You will overwhelm any numbers of SF or 1/1 tokens, so you don't need removal.

[Sturtzilla]

How would you board against UWR Delver and the mirror? Otp and Otd?

http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/60971

I have headaches from perfect boarding Plans :rolleyes:
Against uwr i want to be prepared against TNN, RIP and SFM.
So I wanna board in 2 grudge 2 REB 1 Pyroblast (maybe 2 Flusterstorm too but pierce counters RIP), but what exactly should i board out? If I board out 4 Daze 4 FoW Im very soft to TNN, Snare counters SFM, Jitte and RIP, Stifle is great against his fetches and wastes???

Maybe just 4 FoW? Or the 2 pierce and 1 daze 1 fow? Im not really sure...
Would be great if you can help me here

I think I would begin with Forked Bolt. From there it is kind of difficult. I think there are valid arguements to cut Lightning Bolts, Spell Snares, and Spell Pierces. The counter package you run depends on how you want to shape the game. If you want to counter RIP and SFM outright, then keeping Snares is good. If you want to win counter wars, Spell Pierce is better. Stifle has a lot of flexibility in the match up... hindering their mana development, keeping your lands around, SFM, Jitte counters.... etc. I think it is good when it is good but rapidly loses value becoming FoW fodder. So maybe Stifle is the card to shave. All in all it depends how you want to play the game. Hope this helps!

[samurai_socks]

Went 6-3 at SCG Vegas (Started 5-0 :( ) and some of you may have even seen my awesome punt on camera round 9 v. Elves! Will post a more detailed report later maybe but here is my list:

Creatures (12)

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis

Lands (18)

2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Spells (30)

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Forked Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
1 Spell Snare
1 Reality Ripple
4 Ponder

Sideboard
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Gilded Drake
2 Divert
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Flusterstorm
2 Rough //Tumble

-Cheers-

[monovfox]

What was reality ripple for?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

What was reality ripple for?

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/fcdynv-oau4/hqdefault.jpg

Although your sideboard seems very flexible, I'm not sure if the lots of one ofs is a good approach. I dislike to ponder and ponder and ponder again and again to finally find the card when it's too late.
Why no Submerge and Sulfur Elemental?

[matunos]

What was reality ripple for?

Batterskull I'm guessing, and random tempo plays?

[samurai_socks]

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/fcdynv-oau4/hqdefault.jpg

Although your sideboard seems very flexible, I'm not sure if the lots of one ofs is a good approach. I dislike to ponder and ponder and ponder again and again to finally find the card when it's too late.
Why no Submerge and Sulfur Elemental?

The sideboard was excellent for me all day with the exception of gilded drake (and that was just because I dodged sneak and show).

My analysis of the format was that there was an overall reduction in RUG in the metagame and so submerge was not as vital as it has been in the past. I think my overall statement was true but the few RUG decks that were there all rose to the top...so when I didn't have submerge and LFTL for the mirror I was at a disadvantage.

I highly dislike playing sulfur elemental and rough//tumble in the same deck.

As stated reality ripple was for batterskull and for making my dudes dodge removal. It worked well at both and you will notice I lost to 0 TNN decks.

R1 UW Blade (Batterman, Daniel) 2-0
R2 UWB Esperblade (Sardinas, Oscar) 2-0
R3 4 C Cascade (Rembert, Isaac) 2-1
R4 UWB Esperblade (Wijaya, Vidianto) 2-0
R5 Elves (Harduvel, John) 2-1
R6 RUG (Sidher, Ricky) 1-2
R7 UWR (Paglia, Vincent) 2-0
R8 DNT (Logan, Colin) 1-2
R9 Elves (Yu, Jarvis K) 1-2

-Cheers-

[Barbed Blightning]

Sulfur elemental is definitely needed, since D&T just wrecks this deck and, sometimes, you can't dig up a Rough in time. Plus, split second makes Mom cry.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

[BVB09]

Sulfur elemental is definitely needed, since D&T just wrecks this deck and, sometimes, you can't dig up a Rough in time. Plus, split second makes Mom cry.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

Hi, I didn't get what do you mean with Split second makes Mom cry? Which situations are you refering to?
Thanks :)

[samurai_socks]

Sulfur elemental is definitely needed, since D&T just wrecks this deck and, sometimes, you can't dig up a Rough in time. Plus, split second makes Mom cry.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

Sulfur elemental is good no doubt...your reasoning between digging for sulfur elemental or Rough//Tumble is bizarre at best since Rough//Tumble is arguably better once you do dig for it since it deals with the x/2's where sulfur elemental doesn't. The only downside to Rough//Tumble is Thalia (but then it costs the same as sulfur elemental) and it doesn't hit their fliers, which is a much bigger deal now that they play Serra Avenger again but I don't think giving them a 4/2 vigilance flier is going to do you any good.

Also split second is irrelevant against DNT 100% of the time. Flash though is pretty good.

All in all there is way more elves in the field than DNT and you would rather be all in on Rough//Tumble than a 1 of that is only good in one matchup.

Edit - If there was more Lingering souls in the format then I think I could justify running Sulfur Elemental again. Or if you play in a meta infested with Mom.

-Cheers-

[Barbed Blightning]

Example: you have bolt and sulfur in hand. They have Thalia, Mom and avenger. Eot, flash in sulfur, bolt avenger. It works as a combat trick as well, if you are attacking you can flash in elemental to force them into a bind.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[BVB09]

Example: you have bolt and sulfur in hand. They have Thalia, Mom and avenger. Eot, flash in sulfur, bolt avenger. It works as a combat trick as well, if you are attacking you can flash in elemental to force them into a bind.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

Ahh yes, I see! I thought you meant something like throwing bolt in response to Sulfur so I couldn't get countered, but that wouldn't work. Ok, solved! :)
To contribute to the discussion, I run both Rough (x2) and Sulfur (x1) in my SB. I hate 3-drops but if it's only 1 of 60 it's not so terrible. However I have already experienced how annoying Serra's Avenger are for our usual hate. I would tell you to save bolts/counters for them, as apart from Battersull is normally the only card out of Rough/Sulfur reach.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Well, all these things depend on meta. As DnT makes a good portion of decks in our lgs, I definitely will play 2+2 Rough and SE for some time on.
Part of what makes SE appealing is the flash and split second. They can't respond with MoR (to give some of the survivor necessary protection) and they can't return Thalia to hand, Vial in some dude, etc. What annoys me on Rough is that we can't time it as easy as SE, it's not a threat (though crappy and StP-able) and they can respond to it with any number of fast effects, say "in resp. I return Thalia to hand with Karakas, tap MoR to give her pro:red, move +1/+1 from Jitte to Mirran Crusader making him 3/3 and Vial in Flickerwisp to flicker SFM to save her and EOT find Batterskull. Rough resolves. Kill your Mongoose, please."
I play both. I decided I won't lose to 2/2 dudes for 2 mana.

[Manipulato]

The sideboard was excellent for me all day with the exception of gilded drake (and that was just because I dodged sneak and show).

My analysis of the format was that there was an overall reduction in RUG in the metagame and so submerge was not as vital as it has been in the past. I think my overall statement was true but the few RUG decks that were there all rose to the top...so when I didn't have submerge and LFTL for the mirror I was at a disadvantage.

I highly dislike playing sulfur elemental and rough//tumble in the same deck.

As stated reality ripple was for batterskull and for making my dudes dodge removal. It worked well at both and you will notice I lost to 0 TNN decks.

R1 UW Blade (Batterman, Daniel) 2-0
R2 UWB Esperblade (Sardinas, Oscar) 2-0
R3 4 C Cascade (Rembert, Isaac) 2-1
R4 UWB Esperblade (Wijaya, Vidianto) 2-0
R5 Elves (Harduvel, John) 2-1
R6 RUG (Sidher, Ricky) 1-2
R7 UWR (Paglia, Vincent) 2-0
R8 DNT (Logan, Colin) 1-2
R9 Elves (Yu, Jarvis K) 1-2

-Cheers-

Gratz to your good finish!
How did you board against uwr and rug?
Please otp and otd boarding plans.

Greetings

[ShiftyKapree]

My current list:
2 Gitaxian Probe
1 Fire/Ice
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 FoW
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Wasteland
8 Fetches
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
Sb:
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 REB
1 Flusterstorm
2 Rough/Tumble
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Zuran Orb
1 Life from the Loam
1 Vendillion Clique
3 Submerge
I'm not a big fan on the Git probes I always board them out in just about every match-up except combo. Im thinking about switching them to either 2 forked bolts or 2 Tarfire depending on the meta. For the sideboard I'm not the biggest fan of Zuran Orb and Life from the loam although they did win me a match against U/R burn in DC, I feel I could find something better.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

My current list:
2 Gitaxian Probe
1 Fire/Ice
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 FoW
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Wasteland
8 Fetches
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
Sb:
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 REB
1 Flusterstorm
2 Rough/Tumble
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Zuran Orb
1 Life from the Loam
1 Vendillion Clique
3 Submerge
I'm not a big fan on the Git probes I always board them out in just about every match-up except combo. Im thinking about switching them to either 2 forked bolts or 2 Tarfire depending on the meta. For the sideboard I'm not the biggest fan of Zuran Orb and Life from the loam although they did win me a match against U/R burn in DC, I feel I could find something better.

Btw, Zuran Orb and LftL is a crappy way how to fight resolved TNN, too. Unless they got equipments, you may exchange land drops for life points and lengthen your agony for half a turn per turn, hoping Delver gets there.

[Manipulato]

Hi together,
today we had a smal turney (20 people) and I battled with RUG Delver. The turney went after a 4:1 and 4:0:1 in the previous month really bad! A horrible 2:3 :cry:

Round 1: Manaless Dredge
Game 1 I lost (normal as usual)
Game 2 I crushed him with a 1st turn Grafdiggers Cage with Counter backup.
Game 3: I had to take a mulligan to 4 because I never had a fuck... land:mad:, finally i kept a 4 cards hand with no land but a Cage in it.
I never ever drew a land for the rest of the game :mad: Just ridiculous!

In: 2 Grafdiggers Cage and 2 Rough//Tumble
Out: 2 Spell Snare and 2 FoW

Round 2: Bye

Round 3: UWR Delver
Here I won 2:1 because i have handled his RIP with a Stifle (2 Monoose had (3/3) and destroyed his Sword of fire and Ice and Jitte with Ancient Grudge.
Fist game i took him out of lands because I had 3 Wasteland and 1 Stifle :cool:
In the game I lost he resolved a turn 1 Delver otp and I found no removal after 2 Ponder and 2 Brainstorm + Fetches, just ridiculous! My own Delver got bolted and I tried to race him with my 2 Mongoose + a Goyf later but he could finish me 1 turn earlier with Bolt before I got him:rolleyes:

In: 2 REB 1 Pyroblast and 2 Ancient Grudge
Out: 2 FoW 2 Daze and 1 Forked Bolt OTD
Out: 4 FoW and 1 Forked Bolt OTP

Round 4: BG Nic Fit
I lost both games because I had not enough pressure on the board in the early games and the lategame is, let me say it like this -> Suboptimal :tongue:
In game 2 I searched to long for creatures with ponder + Brainstorm and then I had finnaly one but he had Thrun (which cant be countered), then Decay for a resolved Delver and maelstrom pulse for double Goyf :cry:

In: 3 Submerge 2 Grafdiggers Cage
Out: Cant remember anymore but I think 1/2 Daze 2 Forked Bolt and 1/2 Spell Snare

Round 5: UW TrueBlade
First game I had a hand with Tropical, Waste, Waste, Ponder, Ponder, Ponder, Mongoose, so I was otp and dropped Tropical into Ponder -> Seeing FoW, Daze, Goyf. I knew he is playing UW Blade so I kept this because of the other 2 Ponders in my hand (to find another land) and my 2 Wastes.
Said go and he wastes my only Trop :rolleyes: Then i dropped two wastes and desroyed his duals, he landed a jitte meanwhile.
I FoW his first SFM and hitted finally a Tropical ca. 5 turns later and pondered into antoher fetch. He played TNN which I Dazed and then played another TNN next turn with 4 lands in play equipped with jitte and I was in very poor position and ready to concede BUT I though come on dude you have a treshed mongoos + meanwhile Goyf and then we had a damage race. I had later 2 6/7 Goyfs (dazed a Batterskull & bolted a Jace) + a 3/3 Mongoose. I stifled his jitte trigger so he doesnt get new counters and he was at 5 life and me too and he had a 3/1 TNN without Jitte counters on it and me 15 damage with 3 creatures on board BUT the magic god was not on my side today and he casted a Sword of Fire and Ice equipped and got me one turn before he would die, a daze, stifle, spell pierce would have won me the game because he had only 5 mana in play but I had a Spell Snare in my hand :cry: Next draw -> Daze :tongue:

I never ever had thought that this game would become so fuck... close because TNN + Jitte is normally GG but ALWAYS PLAY TILL THE END!
Game 2: I took a mulligan to 5 because i never had drawn a land in my opening hands and kept finally a 5 card hand with one wasteland, Daze + lots of cantrips BUT I never fuck... ever drew any fuck... land

In: 2 REB 1 Pyroblast and 2 Ancient Grudge
Out: 2 FoW 2 Daze and 1 Forked Bolt OTD
Out: 4 FoW and 1 Forked Bolt OTP

My deck fucked me up really hard today and I had 2 really bad/difficult MU (Nic Fit + Dredge). The magic gods must be mad with me.

All in all the decklist was good and a good friend of mine went 4:1 with UWR Delver + I sold cards for 70 € to the shop boss.

You can see the decklist's from my opponents here
http://mtgdecks.net/events/view/11998

My own list was 2 Pierce, 2 Spell Snare and 2 Forked Bolt everything else was absolutley standard. Sideboard was:

3 Submerge
2 Red elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Flusterstorm
2 Rough//Tumble

Currently I am really unsure if I maybe should switch to UWR Side of the tempo world...Dont know for sure but I am thinking. Jacob Wilson also switched the deck and the 2 UWR made today the 2nd and 3rd Place...

Greetings

[MethadronGer]

Went to a 48 turney today
3:3 after 3:1
Round one Dredge
G1 lost
G2 T1 cage won this
G3 I won I can't remember how

R2 Burn
G1 lost with deadly damage on board
G2 I boarded Flusterstorms they won this
G3 I made a huge mistake playing BS with no shuffle put two Wastelands on top. 2 dead rounds Goofy knocked him down to 4 I was on 3. He played price with two mana open I pierced it and wasted my trops so going down to one and Goofy finished him. Bad play turned into good play.
R3 homebrew 4 color (made 1st or 2nd) I lost in three rounds.
R4 Sneak Show
G1 I didn't waste his T1 land T2 solland SnT scoop
G2 Delver made it with huge counter backup
G3 same like G2
R5 & R6 affinity
Lost G1
G2 rough sweeped the board and I won
G3 both games champion Daze. Next turn Campion no Counter and Plating, I hate this so mutch.

I played first time with probes. I boarded them out in every round but G1 they are awesome they gave me all the informations I needed.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Wow, some bad luck, indeed. Also, what's with the resurgence of dredge?
There's some bigger Legacy in our lgs on Sat, I guess I should think about my sb a bit, I'm still unsure about zero gy hate. For several weeks I did not need any, but well, it isso strange, I guess I won't dodge gravedecks for the whole day long.

[MethadronGer]

I had two extractions and one Cage in my SB, I never needed the extractions, like they won a game. I'll cut both and play one Cage more, cause cage ist an out against elves too.
Yeah I was really pissed cause I can't play much at the moment cause I've a little son and a full time job and after 3:1 I was really happy and I didn't make bad mistakes in both Affinity games. So it was bad luck :-)

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I had two extractions and one Cage in my SB, I never needed the extractions, like they won a game. I'll cut both and play one Cage more, cause cage ist an out against elves too.
Yeah I was really pissed cause I can't play much at the moment cause I've a little son and a full time job and after 3:1 I was really happy and I didn't make bad mistakes in both Affinity games. So it was bad luck :-)

I think I may try something like -1 Sulfur and something, +1-2 Cage.
Or maybe I'll try the one-of sb to have a shot at anything.

[MethadronGer]

I really never needed sulfur the last three or four tournaments, but I bet if I cut it I'll need it.
2 Flusterstorm and 2 red blasts were my mvps yesterday. Never needed sulfur and Submerge :-)
And I had an interesting discussion with a Storm player a good friend of mine about boarding rugh tumble in against etw. He said it's a bad choice I would board at least one in. So what do you think?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I really never needed sulfur the last three or four tournaments, but I bet if I cut it I'll need it.
2 Flusterstorm and 2 red blasts were my mvps yesterday. Never needed sulfur and Submerge :-)
And I had an interesting discussion with a Storm player a good friend of mine about boarding rugh tumble in against etw. He said it's a bad choice I would board at least one in. So what do you think?

Depends.
At least one Sulfur Elemental is necessary as long as D+T is present. Ok, you may dodge it during weekly 4-rounder, but I guess there will be few on a bigger toruney. Also, they will be on high tables. SE is powerful for the fact that it stops many interactions, see one of my above post,s moreover it's a threat (thouhg small) and eats StP like a champ.
Storm players will try to convince you that Rough is useless, becasue they discard your whole hand both pre- and after-EtW. Fact is, that this may happen, esp. when there is Cabal Therapy in gy. Otoh, been completely cold dead to a card that toherwise is supa-dupa easy to answer, and that they sometimes play without the luxury of additional discard (say the infamous "GP, Drit, LP, EtW" turn1s), and/or the fact that you may blind-Ponder into the sweeper or even keep it on top with BS in resp. to discard.. oh well, there are possibilities.
After all it all depends on your playstyle.

BDP

[Holly]

And I had an interesting discussion with a Storm player a good friend of mine about boarding rugh tumble in against etw. He said it's a bad choice I would board at least one in. So what do you think?

Kinda depends on which storm deck you're facing. Against TES it would be wrong to not board it since the easiest way to beat Canadian is an early ETW even if they're boarding 2 rough/tumble.
If you're playing versus ANT it's a complete different case since:
1) They're not playing ETW main.
2) They're playing basics & Cabal Ritual thus having an easier way to play around your taxing counters to get to a Tendrils thus not needing as much the early wins from t1/2 ETW's.

You obviously board it versus Belcher.

[Esper3k]

Example: you have bolt and sulfur in hand. They have Thalia, Mom and avenger. Eot, flash in sulfur, bolt avenger. It works as a combat trick as well, if you are attacking you can flash in elemental to force them into a bind.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

But in this case, it's more the flash that matters than the Split Second since if they try and protect Avenger with Mom, you can still just bolt the Avenger in response.

I think the Split Second is applicable in other situations, but Mom probably isn't the best reason?

[Barbed Blightning]

But in this case, it's more the flash that matters than the Split Second since if they try and protect Avenger with Mom, you can still just bolt the Avenger in response.

I think the Split Second is applicable in other situations, but Mom probably isn't the best reason?

Jitte buffing, Flickerwisp vialing, Karakas bouncing. Mom is just the first example that came to mind.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[monovfox]

Can I get your guys' thoughts on a blue zoo list? No one really posts in that thread anymore.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Can I get your guys' thoughts on a blue zoo list? No one really posts in that thread anymore.

link, pls.


On the Sulfur discussion: yes, MoR is only one of the many cards that D+T utilize. Split second is pretty powerful. And moreover: you may take the elemental also against UWx controls and that's where the kinda-uncounterability matters a lot.

[Manipulato]

What do you guys think of a more removal heavier list like that

4 Delver
4 Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 FoW
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning

3 Tropical
3 Volcanic
3 Flooded strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

I saw lists like that exept that they cutted all stifles for the full playset of chain lightning but in my opinion stifle is just a super flexible and important card for RUG that I cant cut it. In the past (I think 2-3 years ago) people tried it without stifle but all returned after a while to the stifle version.
In that version I cutted my 2 Forked bolt and 2 Spell Snares for 3 Chains and the 3rd Pierce. The list looks very nice to me. And I like the number of counters and removal (remembers me a bit on UWR). I watched some games from the last scg where Shahar Shenhar and a other dude played only a 5 removal list and they had need more removal very often in theyre games. Plus this list can burn out the opponent quiet easy if they're on 6 life or so. Now that TNN stalls our gooses and goyfs on the ground the opportunity to burn them out seems sweet to me. Sure we can daze or force him but sometimes they can get him trough. UWR plays a similar removal suit and it works well (sure chain L. is no Sword but whatever).

Please tell me your oppinions on that! Because I am preparing for GPT Paris in Munich.

Greetings

[Erdvermampfa]

I hope I run into you there with Mono Black Control.

Also, I don't really see an actual reasoning why you increased the number of bolts, maybe you could elaborate that a bit.

[Manipulato]

I hope I run into you there with Mono Black Control.

Also, I don't really see an actual reasoning why you increased the number of bolts, maybe you could elaborate that a bit.

I elaborated it...More reach at opponents life points, more fast answers to opposing creatures. It's just a thought which I want to discussion here and not a result...

[Caniki]

I elaborated it...More reach at opponents life points, more fast answers to opposing creatures. It's just a thought which I want to discussion here and not a result...

I think the counterspells really do a lot of work in RUG Delver. If you want to play a more burn heavy deck, UR Delver is a reasonable option. You can use more TNNs then too.

[Manipulato]

I think the counterspells really do a lot of work in RUG Delver. If you want to play a more burn heavy deck, UR Delver is a reasonable option. You can use more TNNs then too.

Does nobody look at the list? There are 4 FoW, 4 Daze, 3 Spell Pierce and 4 Stifle! The exact amount of counters like the most RUG lists play...The lists with 2-3 probes play not one counter more...I cutted spell snare but a lot of people didnt played that card anyway. In that version we are not reducing counters (ok, against my standard list -1).
In view of the probe versions which are very popular we replace 3 probe with 3 Chain Lightning and thats it.

I saw a couple of burn heavy RUG lists the last 2 Month here in Germany (1 went 1st at a 40-50 man event but without stifles).
Seems that outside of germany its not so common or known :smile:

[monovfox]

link, pls.


On the Sulfur discussion: yes, MoR is only one of the many cards that D+T utilize. Split second is pretty powerful. And moreover: you may take the elemental also against UWx controls and that's where the kinda-uncounterability matters a lot.

LINK YW.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20129-Deck-Blue-Zoo&p=776127#post776127

[Bed Decks Palyer]

On several occasions I already stated why I dislike to play without Spell Snare, it's pretty useful card as it hits lots of potential troublemakers (be it SFM, Goyf, IT/BW or even CRit, CBalance, sometimes Jitte, CotV @ 1, list goes on). I can see myself cutting it to one (if meta warrants that), but I'd still never play a completely Snareless buid, as the card is hardly ever completely useless. Also, preboard Goyfs are huge pain and sometimes you just don't wanna tap your Goyf into the opposing one (relying on your burn to finish the wall), as you might lose your own Goyf to their Bol. Now you're even bringing Chain Lightning, a spell that has no other home than ultra fast red decks (where its drawback usually doesn't matter). Although the StifleWaste plan is quite solid, and once it works, you need not be afraid to fire your Chains at will (esp. considring that opponents under pressure won't have time to sit on RR open), I'm still afraid that every time they'd rebolt your Delver, you'll feel like cheated. Which brings me to the next point...
I always felt that resolving, protecting and riding the creature towards the victory is more crucial than the Bolts, as the burn package is quite small and the creatures deal much more damage, though spread over several turns. Thus my main concern (in non-combo mu) is to make sure nothing hits my dudes, and my removal is secondary, esp. as Threshold's creatures rule the combat (at least in early game, in which you want to stay for as long as possible). Slapping the opponent's face with direct damage is reserved for when all other options are irrelevant, either because you can't win through the attack phase (clogged red zone, Moat, double Maze, Elesh Norn, or whatever else) or because you're already past the point from where all you need is burn.
There are matchups where Chain Lightning is pretty double-edged, too, like anything with red in it.

Speaking of additional non-Bolt removal, I see these four possibilities:
- Forked Bolt. Flexible, and costs one mana, so you may kill the DRS asap, on the play it's even possible to Bolt the elf and keep mana for Stifle.
- Tarfire. Instant that feeds Goyf, what's not to like?
- Fire//Ice. Kinda fell of favour, needless to say it's bit weaker against Thalia/DRS, otoh it's the most flexible of all the possibilities.
- Chain Lightning. Least flexibility for the most of power. Hey, playing three of them makes it into nine dmg, so this card can't be bad.

I'm afraid that there's no easy answer. It all depends on your metagame and on your gameplan/style. Basically I'd shy away from any "RUG Goyfsligh" buillds, because you lack the sheer power of Price of Progress, Fireblast and similar stuff, gain only one more removal for the aggro matchup (and moreover you switch to one that may easily harm you or your creatures), you'll weaken your combo matchup and gain only a partial advantage in control matchup... and maybe not even that, see the parton the importance of your creatures.

Try it, let us know. I purchased CLs years ago and never played them, so I'm interested if I should finally sleeve them! :smile:

[Tormod]

This is a generalisation. What I notice American "Scg" meta players tend to run more probes and their list follow Jacob Wilson. The Euro meta runs more burn/removal.

[Manipulato]

I love spell snare too and my current build was very solid (with 2 Snare 2 Pierce 2 Forked Bolt) until the last turney on Saturday. I made some thoughts because Im looking for the optimal list and went bad at the last turney. Sure it wasnt the card choices, it was the bad magic god who let me draw mega poorly but well evolution is not stopable :smile:
Maybe I will test it in Munich maybe I play UWR and maybe I play my Standard list, we will see :smile:

My thought was that Spell snare (even if I love it because it counters a ton of relevant spells) did not so many work for me the last 3 turneys (maybe because of the lack of Goyf Decks in my meta) and additional removal is never bad especially if I can play the full counter package too. So maybe it could be sweet and older lists were running 8 removal (4 Bolt 4 Fire/Ice) too.

Thanks for your answers!

[Final Fortune]

Can I get your guys' thoughts on a blue zoo list? No one really posts in that thread anymore.

I still play it, if you need anything you can PM me.

[rlesko]

I think I'm going to cut 1 snare for 1 Dismember (right now running 2 probes, 2 pierces, 2 snares, 1 FB, 3 stifle). The snares are great but sometimes you just draw them a turn or two after a goyf or SFM. It obviously can't counter a tutor or something but I feel like the combo match up is already OK without the extra snare whereas the Dismember greatly enhances the midrange MU's. Will let you guys know how testing goes.

Not sold on the probes either, they seem to be popular with the pros in the SCG circuit but I still think I prefer more business spells (as the probes are great in the opening hand but after that not very great...). If I cut 2 probes I would add back the 4th stifle and a 3rd spell pierce.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

There were five rounds of Swiss with cut to top8 in our lgs, the tournament was GPT Paris with some 100 USD for the winner.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/09/01/article-0-0DA4D21100000578-595_634x953.jpg

I piloted this:

List:
//Qty Name
// Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
//\\
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
//\\
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Dismember
2 Forked Bolt
//\\
// Sideboard
2 Rough // Tumble
3 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sulfur Elemental

I switched one Snare for Dismember in anticipation of Goys and Germs. Still no gy hate, becasue no one play Dredge/Reanimator/Tin Fins in our meta, and those few Elves that our lgs sports, I regularly stomp with my horrid amount of burn and the post-sb Roughs.

R1, Michal, Dredge
g1: He had slow start and I pressed with Delkver, then on his nine life three or four Moebas hit the play and it was all over for the good side.
sb: 2 Roughs in, 2 Mongooses out
g2: I won on the backs of 2 Delvers and some countermagic.
sb: I took Pyroblast and Flusterstorm instead of remaining Mongooses.
g3: I Pyroblasted turn2 Study, alas, he had Breakthroguh and went nuts.
Loss, 0:1


R2, Petr, Elves
Clearly a pretty well I estimated the metagame...
g1: He curb stomped me with some 1/1s.
sb: out Mongooses, Spell Snare, Dismember and Daze, in Roughs, Submerges and Pithing Needles.
g2: I won after a well-timed Rough.
3: He won after a well-timed billion lands from my top.
Loss, 0:2, drop.

The city above Seine, I will see not.

Props:
been home quite soon
sold some Japanese crap, so the fee was kinda free
Slops:
everything else
starting flu, it's for the third time in two months

Also, I seriously hate the pubertal nerds with their slanguage, grimasses and stench. What a pity that the matured players catched on, and instead of pulling up the youngsters, they fit into their mud. I loved Legacy much more when it was unpopular format where decks costed 1/3 of today's prices and you could build any DTB from one payment, all the while the lgs was devoid of the desperates.
Thanks God for this result, it gives me much needed strength to sell the stuff. Also, this was the last non-Thursday tournament, cause I can't see myself throw away 200 crowns on something as silly as completely wasted day.


At least I bought something pretty for my collection:

http://www.cernyrytir.cz/images/obchod/krabice4000_big.jpg

[rlesko]

I switched one Snare for Dismember in anticipation of Goys and Germs. Still no gy hate, becasue no one play Dredge/Reanimator/Tin Fins in our meta, and those few Elves that our lgs sports, I regularly stomp with my horrid amount of burn and the post-sb Roughs.


It seems you made a similar analysis with snare and dismember I made in an earlier post. I'm sorry your tournament did not go well...I never leave the house without a Grafdigger's Cage and 2x Surgical Extraction (good in MU's other than Dredge). Cage is great against Elves, and Surgical is good against random crap like Loam, Reanimator, and I even sometimes take it in against Jund (and other decks that I think are going to attack my mana base).

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Yep, I should have taken the Cage at the very least... :mad:

[rlesko]

There is always some dredge going around at my LGS but maybe at a bigger tournament I would just take the Cage and cut the surgicals.

[Isre Morn]

Also, I seriously hate the pubertal nerds with their slanguage, grimasses and stench.
Oh yeah, sweet knowing experiences... Wish I always have that rubber mallets in both hands.



Thanks God for this result, it gives me much needed strength to sell the stuff. [...] At least I bought something pretty for my collection:[...]
Selling stuff and accumulating a collection? seems a bit controversial ;)

PS: love your post-underlining illustrations!

ontopic:
Always expect anything!

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Oh yeah, sweet knowing experiences... Wish I always have that rubber mallets in both hands.


Selling stuff and accumulating a collection? seems a bit controversial ;)

PS: love your post-underlining illustrations!

ontopic:
Always expect anything!

I realized that I won't move any further with selling, if I don't purchase some boxes where to stuff the stuff first. It is all over the place and every time I wanted to make some order in chaos, the awestruck I gazed at wonder, then slowly, timidly, I gtfo.

On topic: I think that gy hate is a-must for anything bigger than the everyweeks four rounds of Swiss where you know each deck and player. I was really surprised that there was another Dredge in the room... and some MBC with Demonic Tutor main, too.

[trollking21]

The problem I have with most grave hate is that I can beat most decks that use the graveyard without it. You can just beat reanimator on the stack, same with tin-fins, oops all spells or most anything. The problem is just straight losing I dredge which is unfortunate. Are there decks other then dredge that you auto lose to without grave hate?

[Tormod]

My local has enough of a population of graveyard decks that, hate is a requirement.

[rlesko]

Went to a small tournament today...so close...
//Creatures
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Tarmogoyf

//Spells
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
3x Stifle
2x Gitaxian Probe
2x Spell Pierce
2x Spell Snare
1x Forked Bolt

//Lands
4x Wasteland
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Volcanic Island
3x Tropical Island

Sideboard:
1x Pithing Needle
1x Life from the Loam
1x Flusterstorm
1x Sulfur Elemental
3x Submerge
2x Red Elemental Blast
1x Ancient Grudge
2x Rough // Tumble
1x Grafdigger’s Cage
2x Surgical Extraction

round 1 against Dredge
g1: Play a turn 1 Delver on the play. he goes gemstone mine -> careful study so I know he is on dredge. daze his spell to keep the GY empty. delver flips. play my land again and another delver. he can't get anything in the yard through my counterspells and 6 power a turn proves to be too much for him.

g2: he leads off with a firestorm to ensure stuff hits the yard. he bricks on his first dredge, (revealing 3 LED and some land :wink: ), land a tarm and a delver so the pressure is on (8 power on board). I have a surgical ready for whenever he hits a Narcomoeba or Bridge from Below, but with my quick clock, he isn't able to get there.

1-0-0

round 2 ANT
as he is shuffling, he accidentally drops an LED on the table, lol! lucky for me :wink:
g1: stifle his early fetch, he was not expecting it, but it doesn't prove to be very crippling. he fetches another time and probes (paying life) so he is at 16. play a goyf and non threshed goose for some decent pressure (4 power total). after attacking 2 times reducing him to 8, I forked bolt main phase and and fetch to get threshold for the win.

g2: have a hand with a ton of hate and some filtering so I keep it. don't see a creature after multiple ponders and maybe 10 turns. he has all the mana in the world but cannot power through FoW, flusterstorm, 2x stifle, etc. so we actually move to our discard phase a number of times. i could not recall exactly the sequence of events but he rituals a lot and i FoW his past in flames. Since its a casual tournament I let a missequenced infernal tutor + LED (he actually went looking into his library and then tried to crack LED) resolve. with a ton of mana floating and a storm count easily greater than 10 he simply plays a Xantid swarm. I don't draw a bolt so he wins this game in turns for a draw.

1-0-1

round 3 BUG Delver
I saw him playing when i was walking around so I knew what I was up against. not sure if he saw me.
g1: land, go. he lays a DRS which I brainstorm in response to for value then daze (also have bolt in hand so if he dazes back I would not have been upset). play a delver and pass, he ponders. delver doesn't flip attack for 1. he tries to jam a goyf which is met by spell snare. delver flips and i get in there a couple times while he searches for a threat. probe reveals a goyf and a tombstalker. hymn #1 meets spell pierce. i waste to keep him off green and have FoW for his tombstalker. he hymns a 2nd time, I brainstorm in response and I have FoW, daze, delver, volcanic island, and I one other card which was blue 5 cards total)...I want to have the volcanic island in hand but if he gets a lucky hymn, I won't be able to keep FoW + blue card up. eventually I put the volcanic island and FoW back on top, with 3 blue cards in hand. Ok, no problem. Swing with delver, he goes to 5. hymn #3 hits, and I lose my protection. swing to go to put him at 2. he lands a tombstalker now. any creature or bolt wins me the game. he hymns for the 4th time (ffs), fetches, and then plays a goyf (he is at 1). I have 2 turns of a 4 power goyf attacking so i am at 8 (payed 4 life total for 2 fetches and a probe). he draws a diabolic edict and wins...FUCK!! four hymns, no burn spells, just my luck...

g2: don't recall the early turns but he lays 2 delvers same turn and passes. forked bolt for the win...talk about a blowout! delver sometime after. flips, hits for 3. delver then gets decayed. play goose (not thresh yet) attack him to 16. he fetches, goes to 15 and he FoW my goyf puts him at 14. attack with a goose to put him to 11. don't really remember what he was doing, but from my notes (me being at 18 life) at the end of the game, he wasn't doing much. I know he lands a DRS and tombstalker at some point, stalker gets submerged and DRS chumps a goose. again but i have 2-3 geese, so he can't successfully fend all of them off.

g3: I keep a 1 lander (volc) with stifle, ponder, bolt, goose, pierce, and somethin else. he plays a turn 1 DRS. i attempt to main phase bolt it, which in kind sight, was a misplay, as he forces my bolt, then wastes my land. lose. should have just protected my land with the stifle, but maybe it would not have mattered as if i stifled his wasteland, he could just have force of willed that instead. don't see a land for the rest of the game and I scoop.

1-1-1

round 4 12 post
g1: land double delver but eventually he gets maze of ith + candle to untap all my stuff. lame. overloard the board with creatures and a stifle on maze + bolt allows me to get there.

g2: drop a goyf but he gets maze online again, before long he is swimming in cloud/glimmer posts and untapping all my dudes. eye of ugin for emrakul EOT with probably 30 mana available.

g3: probe see expedition map, bojuka bog, candleabra, top, maze, vesuva, primeval titan. i think i go trop island -> delver. he vesuva my trop. waste his vesuva. he plays a cloudpost then passes. I loam back my fetch and waste. this was the critical misplay IMO, as I should have waited to have a mana open for a brainstorm in response to bog trigger to save my loam. I can wastelock him out if I play that properly. shortly after, he gets that damn maze + candle combo going. lose.

1-2-1.

drop

game 3 of match 4 was definitely the worst misplay of the afternoon. leaving stifle mana up may or may not have been a misplay, as there is a chance he would not have fought over that. need more practice in the 12 post match up for sure. oh well.

probe did work today, don't feel like i want to cut it anymore. still thinking about going +1 dismember / -1 snare, but the foil dismember didn't arrive in the mail yet so I didn't make the switch for this afternoon :wink:. overall feel ok about the deck, as if I don't get hymned FOUR times in 1 game, i probably win, and if I don't misplay my loam or save my waste for maze, I probably win, so 1-2-1 potentially turns to 3-0-1, but yes, this deck is very unforgiving of misplays. look forward to your comments.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Hi rlesko!
Could you share your sb techniques, please! Oh, and sorry for the bad result, otoh, look how I fared just two days ago... :laugh:

[rlesko]

hey BDL,

Heres how I think i side boarded (I did not write them my notes)

Dredge - -2 Spell Snare, -3 Stifle, +2 rough // tumble, +1 cage, +2 Surgical Extraction (no change if on the play or the draw)

storm - +1 flusterstorm, -1 probe (same OTP or OTD). Do you guys bring in REB to counter their cantrips?

BUG Delver - OTP -4 FoW, -2 Probe +3 Submerge, +1 Loam, +2 REB OTD -2 Daze, -2 FoW, -2 Probe +3 Submerge, +1 Loam, +2 REB. Did not much like the REB's, though, perhaps they should only be brought in against RUG, not BUG.

12 post - took out the 2 spell snares since I don't think there exists a CMC 2 spell in his deck as well as a probe. brought in Loam, ancient grudge, and pithing needle.

[poxy14]

Went 3 - 1 yesterday (16 man yearend TeamBudget tourney) for a 4th place finish with this list...
1 place goes to UWR miracles that wrecked 2nd and 3rd places combo decks.. im satisfied with what ive sleeved up yesterday..
them tarfires are AMAZING!

4 force of will
4 stifle
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 daze
3 spell pierce
4 lightning bolt
3 tarfire

4 delver of secrets
3 nimble mongoose
4 tarmogoyf
1 true name nemesis

3 wooded foothills
2 scalding tarn
1 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
3 tropical island
3 volcanic island
4 wasteland

SB:
1 vendilion clique
2 ancient grudge
2 rough/tumble
1 grafdigger's cage
1 surgical extraction
1 spell snare
3 submerge
2 REB
1 pyroblast
1 pithing needle

round 1: (2 - 1 deathblade)
was able to counter removals for my early delvers, and im not worried bout resolved DRS or SFMs since i can easily burn them EoT, saving dazes for opposing TNN..g2 wasnt able to established a good source of mana as i wasnt able to draw a fetch, holding on for 2 trops...game 3 was tight, mulled to five yet was able to get it through, with major misplays from my opponent forgetting to bounce v.cliq vis karakas and letting it killed his LotV...forgetting to brainstorm upkeep thus receiving 3 pts of damage via bob when he reveled TNN and i was holding a bolt for the last 6 pts. of lethal damage...

round 2: (2 - 0 affinity)
TARFIRES! resolving 2 goyfs both games 1 and 2 is a no brainer..them goyfs were never scared of galavanic blasts all thoroughout the games..
packing 2 grudges too was a big help as iwas cutting him off impt colored manas by targetting his very low count of lands (17), he was never able to establish a good clock both games...

round 3 (1 - 2 dredge)
i just wished i cut off the snare for a tormod's crypt, really wasnt expecting this deck to show up still, and it hit me...game 3 i mulled to 3 drawing 1 GCage, 1 pierce, 1 fow...i topdecked a trop with a very big sigh of relief, but he managed to just aggro me casting every blk creature he can, we almost drew, died on the last turn of the last 5 turns given as an extension..LESSON LEARNED....i should stick to carrying atleast 3 gyhate in my SB..i just hate this matchup, winnable but u need to draw them help in the sb's..

round 4 (2 -0 punishing mav)
with me packing more burn, them spell pierces did protect all my flyers and burning everything that lands on his board, by the time kotr resolved..he was at lethal facing the NEMESIS, we chatted after the game and he mentioned how he truly hate TNN, this we never need to be scared of them kotrs anymore.

3 pierces main helps the unfair deck matchup, 7 quick burn spells that also grow my goyfs is just fun. i'll be bringing this list in a major tourney early Jan 2014.

Happy Holidays everyone and goodluck to RUG come 2014!

[Manipulato]

Went 3 - 1 yesterday (16 man yearend TeamBudget tourney) for a 4th place finish with this list...
1 place goes to UWR miracles that wrecked 2nd and 3rd places combo decks.. im satisfied with what ive sleeved up yesterday..
them tarfires are AMAZING!

4 force of will
4 stifle
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 daze
3 spell pierce
4 lightning bolt
3 tarfire

4 delver of secrets
3 nimble mongoose
4 tarmogoyf
1 true name nemesis

3 wooded foothills
2 scalding tarn
1 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
3 tropical island
3 volcanic island
4 wasteland

SB:
1 vendilion clique
2 ancient grudge
2 rough/tumble
1 grafdigger's cage
1 surgical extraction
1 spell snare
3 submerge
2 REB
1 pyroblast
1 pithing needle

round 1: (2 - 1 deathblade)
was able to counter removals for my early delvers, and im not worried bout resolved DRS or SFMs since i can easily burn them EoT, saving dazes for opposing TNN..g2 wasnt able to established a good source of mana as i wasnt able to draw a fetch, holding on for 2 trops...game 3 was tight, mulled to five yet was able to get it through, with major misplays from my opponent forgetting to bounce v.cliq vis karakas and letting it killed his LotV...forgetting to brainstorm upkeep thus receiving 3 pts of damage via bob when he reveled TNN and i was holding a bolt for the last 6 pts. of lethal damage...

round 2: (2 - 0 affinity)
TARFIRES! resolving 2 goyfs both games 1 and 2 is a no brainer..them goyfs were never scared of galavanic blasts all thoroughout the games..
packing 2 grudges too was a big help as iwas cutting him off impt colored manas by targetting his very low count of lands (17), he was never able to establish a good clock both games...

round 3 (1 - 2 dredge)
i just wished i cut off the snare for a tormod's crypt, really wasnt expecting this deck to show up still, and it hit me...game 3 i mulled to 3 drawing 1 GCage, 1 pierce, 1 fow...i topdecked a trop with a very big sigh of relief, but he managed to just aggro me casting every blk creature he can, we almost drew, died on the last turn of the last 5 turns given as an extension..LESSON LEARNED....i should stick to carrying atleast 3 gyhate in my SB..i just hate this matchup, winnable but u need to draw them help in the sb's..

round 4 (2 -0 punishing mav)
with me packing more burn, them spell pierces did protect all my flyers and burning everything that lands on his board, by the time kotr resolved..he was at lethal facing the NEMESIS, we chatted after the game and he mentioned how he truly hate TNN, this we never need to be scared of them kotrs anymore.

3 pierces main helps the unfair deck matchup, 7 quick burn spells that also grow my goyfs is just fun. i'll be bringing this list in a major tourney early Jan 2014.

Happy Holidays everyone and goodluck to RUG come 2014!

Hi,
you tried a similar list like me (with 4 Bolt & 3 extra burn spells) which a couple of members here found that very questionably. Did you really never missed the 2 Spell Snares? I´m asking because Im preparing for a GPT and are interested in such a more burn/removal heavier list. The instant speed + goyf pump seems quite nice to me but I like the flexibility of forked bolt too, I tried Chain Ligtning instead of that but I think F. Bolt or Tarfire seems more solid because 80 % of the played creatures get killed by a 2 damage removal which C. Lightning would just overkill (nobody plays Wild Narcatl :-)).

Greetings

[Quasim0ff]

hey BDL,

Heres how I think i side boarded (I did not write them my notes)

Dredge - -2 Spell Snare, -3 Stifle, +2 rough // tumble, +1 cage, +2 Surgical Extraction (no change if on the play or the draw)

storm - +1 flusterstorm, -1 probe (same OTP or OTD). Do you guys bring in REB to counter their cantrips?

BUG Delver - OTP -4 FoW, -2 Probe +3 Submerge, +1 Loam, +2 REB OTD -2 Daze, -2 FoW, -2 Probe +3 Submerge, +1 Loam, +2 REB. Did not much like the REB's, though, perhaps they should only be brought in against RUG, not BUG.

12 post - took out the 2 spell snares since I don't think there exists a CMC 2 spell in his deck as well as a probe. brought in Loam, ancient grudge, and pithing needle.
Yes, I counter their draws, as much as possible.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

hey BDL,

Heres how I think i side boarded (I did not write them my notes)

Dredge - -2 Spell Snare, -3 Stifle, +2 rough // tumble, +1 cage, +2 Surgical Extraction (no change if on the play or the draw)

storm - +1 flusterstorm, -1 probe (same OTP or OTD). Do you guys bring in REB to counter their cantrips?

BUG Delver - OTP -4 FoW, -2 Probe +3 Submerge, +1 Loam, +2 REB OTD -2 Daze, -2 FoW, -2 Probe +3 Submerge, +1 Loam, +2 REB. Did not much like the REB's, though, perhaps they should only be brought in against RUG, not BUG.

12 post - took out the 2 spell snares since I don't think there exists a CMC 2 spell in his deck as well as a probe. brought in Loam, ancient grudge, and pithing needle.

I think your sb choices are solid.
I take REBs against storm (we're control and we need every tool) and take out some Mongooses (slow, dies to Rough if tokens show up, I need slots for REBs)


at Poxy: Good job!
at Manipulato: I think that versions with three burn spells are solid, and Tarfire seems interesting. I'd love to play at least one Snare, though. It stops so many annoying spells that Pierce can't hit, like Goyf, SFM, Bob, mid-game Counterbalance played with mana backup, or DRit+DRit+Drit+LED+IT where Pierce does nothing.

[poxy14]

Hi,
you tried a similar list like me (with 4 Bolt & 3 extra burn spells) which a couple of members here found that very questionably. Did you really never missed the 2 Spell Snares? I´m asking because Im preparing for a GPT and are interested in such a more burn/removal heavier list. The instant speed + goyf pump seems quite nice to me but I like the flexibility of forked bolt too, I tried Chain Ligtning instead of that but I think F. Bolt or Tarfire seems more solid because 80 % of the played creatures get killed by a 2 damage removal which C. Lightning would just overkill (nobody plays Wild Narcatl :-)).

Greetings hi, never missed the snares..ive always felt comfortable battling fair decks with 7 burns..im a fan too of forked bolts and f/ice...but after testing them tarfires yesterday i think i could tempo more by hitting evrything eot, i used to play BDL's list with 2 snares md, but then again i thought i could always have a better battle with sfm when i dont have a snare in my hand..it really depends on ur playstyle..there are lots of tnn.dec here in my meta lately so by racing them early and landing monstrous goyfs midgame pumped by tarfires..there were situations when tnn stayed home just to salvage 5 - 6pts of goyf damage..before i tested this list it was with 1fice and 2tars...i decided to test 3 and remove a goose so i would still be able to lessen my blue count card for fows...it worked for me..hopefuly this will be succesful come next week, i"ll keep u posted...thanks BDL, I followed ur advice of testing three tarfires, working well so far.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

hi, never missed the snares..ive always felt comfortable battling fair decks with 7 burns..im a fan too of forked bolts and f/ice...but after testing them tarfires yesterday i think i could tempo more by hitting evrything eot, i used to play BDL's list with 2 snares md, but then again i thought i could always have a better battle with sfm when i dont have a snare in my hand..it really depends on ur playstyle..there are lots of tnn.dec here in my meta lately so by racing them early and landing monstrous goyfs midgame pumped by tarfires..there were situations when tnn stayed home just to salvage 5 - 6pts of goyf damage..before i tested this list it was with 1fice and 2tars...i decided to test 3 and remove a goose so i would still be able to lessen my blue count card for fows...it worked for me..hopefuly this will be succesful come next week, i"ll keep u posted...thanks BDL, I followed ur advice of testing three tarfires, working well so far.

Hi Poxy, I'm glad that you like the deck, just note that it wasn't only me who thought about Tarfires.
I think I gonna try them.
I don't like Snareless builds for reason known. And I like four Mongooses, althought they are slow, because they are really hard to remove. I guess I may try something like this:

List:
//Qty Name
// Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
//\\
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
//\\
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
3 Tarfire
//\\
// Sideboard
2 Rough // Tumble
3 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Life from the Loam
2 Grafdigger's Cage

On the md:
Nothing special here, just the three Tarfires. I guess keeping one Snare is reasonable, as opposing Goyfs will be extremely annoying and all the usual suspects (like SFM, Hymn, IT, CB, Thalia, Merfolk Lords, Jitte, and such) are still present. There's hardly a deck packing zero targets (only SnT variants come to mind) and those that play very limited number of cmc2 spells (like BUrg) are either too rare or still have at least three Goyfs to kill.
Also, I think I should split the fetches finally, I'm surprised no one realized how powerful Needle/Extraction is against me.

On the sb:
I think that the slots nicely overlap, and although I dislike the need to cut one Sulfur and Needle, it's still pretty solid, as seven removal main should fight the DnT/DRS quite good.

Rough: Elves, Goblins, DnT, Dredge, TES
Submerge: Elves, Maverick, mirror, Jund/k, TA
Krosan Grip: anything packing RiP, Choke or equipments, also SnT and Affi
Ancient Grudge: mainly for the equips, but again Affinity, any Chalice.dec, random Defense Grids
Pyroblast: format
Flusterstorm: mirror (eats Stifle alive), Storm, Burn, SnT, Miracles
Pithing Needle: this is the only card I'd love to see twice. It stops so many cards it's not even possible to mention - Colliseum, Maze, Deed, EE, Vial, MoR, Jitte, Jace, Lili, DRS, Top, Mishra, sometimes Wasteland, 'bra, Relic, Grim, Keg/Bomb, Symbiont, Ravager or Tezz.
Sulfur Elemental: DnT and Mav, Lingering Souls
Life from the Loam: any tempo deck, esp. Stifle mirror, Pox, maybe even Goblins/DnT or similar prison-like strategies, one may try to punish greedy controls
Grafdigger's Cage: Dredge, Reanimator, Elves

I'd love to find a slot for one Needle more.
KGrip is clunky with its cmc3, otoh, it's the only card to fight resolved RiP/Choke, one of the few to killCB/SDT and a great adition for equipments destruction. As a one of it shouldn't clog our opening hand, and we should cantrip into it before CB hits (at least on play) and it makes RiP into hinderance, not a losscon.
Two Blasts might be overkill, esp. as Delver is not a problem with this md, otoh, I beleive that once I cut it, the whole lgs starts to pack Merfolks and TNNs. Also, randomly stopping SnT or Ponder->AdN is solid.
Loam might be useless. Otoh, losing to manascrew or one unlucky Wasteland is really frustrating, and this card has a potential to be decisive in the mirror. Sadly, DRS quite kills it.
I'm not sure on Cages, too. I realized that fighting Elves/Mav is about (mass) removal and Reanimator might be won on thge stack, so there's only Dredge left to fight. (And PiF combo, but this is not that important, see Reanimator.) Maybe I may cut it to one, but then again, this means I don't even play it all.

I think I gotta make some decision on Loam. It's the weakest link and it has not many real applications outside of been an emergency brake... and even then, it may be too late, esp. as the card gets eaten by DRS or hit by Snare/Pierce.

Some more unusual choices ("unusual" at least in sense of a gameplan and playstyle) are Jace, TMS and of course Sylvan Library. I already stated my opinins on Library in non-midrange deck, moreover in one with eight cantrips. Jace, although a CA machine and a wincon in one card, has a cmc of four, which is really stretching for Thresh. Also, it's kinda nombo with Needle.

[samurai_socks]

Went 6-3 at SCG Vegas (Started 5-0 :( ) and some of you may have even seen my awesome punt on camera round 9 v. Elves! Will post a more detailed report later maybe but here is my list:

Creatures (12)

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis

Lands (18)

2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Spells (30)

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Forked Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
1 Spell Snare
1 Reality Ripple
4 Ponder

Sideboard
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Gilded Drake
2 Divert
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Flusterstorm
2 Rough //Tumble

-Cheers-

A little late now but things are busy around Christmas, so I have only had the chance to type up a quick report:

http://mtgbazaar-teamz.blogspot.com/2013/12/scg-invitational-las-vegas.html

If I have some more time I will either edit to add sideboarding, or I will write a little something about my sideboard.

-Cheers-

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Thanks for the report!
These mistaeks happen, one gets tired after rounds and rounds of MtG. But it still hurts...
Why have you Wasted him so much? You had nothing in hand? Because this way you couldn't do anything, not even trick a Bolt or Pierce (for GSZ/NO) and you kept yourself two turns awayfrom any Rough drawn. Also, I like to take Needle against Elves, it stops DRS, Quirion AND Symbiont and each of those is prety annoying. Would you play at least one?

[samurai_socks]

Thanks for the report!
These mistaeks happen, one gets tired after rounds and rounds of MtG. But it still hurts...
Why have you Wasted him so much? You had nothing in hand? Because this way you couldn't do anything, not even trick a Bolt or Pierce (for GSZ/NO) and you kept yourself two turns awayfrom any Rough drawn. Also, I like to take Needle against Elves, it stops DRS, Quirion AND Symbiont and each of those is prety annoying. Would you play at least one?

It was totally my fault but I just forgot he had deathrite in play...the glare on the table made me have to pick up his cards several times during the match. Still my mistaken daze shouldn't have happened.

So after the daze my hand was basically soft counters, FOW and x2 wastes. He already had plenty of mana so the wastes are twofold. First to turn on my soft counters and second my new game plan is to position myself to have the best position to come back if I draw forked bolt and rough//tumble. I actually think all my plays after the daze were correct. I just needed to find a clock a couple of turns sooner.

I like needle and have run it in the sideboard before and will again. I would also think about running one gravediggers cage since it has cross hate between elves and grave hate.

-Cheers-

[Bed Decks Palyer]

It was totally my fault but I just forgot he had deathrite in play...the glare on the table made me have to pick up his cards several times during the match. Still my mistaken daze shouldn't have happened.

So after the daze my hand was basically soft counters, FOW and x2 wastes. He already had plenty of mana so the wastes are twofold. First to turn on my soft counters and second my new game plan is to position myself to have the best position to come back if I draw forked bolt and rough//tumble. I actually think all my plays after the daze were correct. I just needed to find a clock a couple of turns sooner.

I like needle and have run it in the sideboard before and will again. I would also think about running one gravediggers cage since it has cross hate between elves and grave hate.

-Cheers-

Oh, now when I "see" in your hand, I guess you played it correctly.
Maybe you could have started with a dual instead of Waste, to trick the Daze/SPierce/Bolt (moreover, the soft counters need a dual in play) and to have a land for occasional catrips, then start the Wasting. But this is really hard to decide without a real peek into your hand... and into your head. :-)

I think that at least 1/1 split of Needle/Cage is a-must, as Needle stops endless list of prety annoying cards and the utility of Cage in several matchups shouldn't be overlooked.


Btw: I opened a postbox today and a set of Chinese cards looked at me: 4 Snares, 2 4ED FBB Bolts and 1 KGrip. I'm so happy! :cool:

[rlesko]

@Samurai_Socks

If you had FoW in your opening hand with no bolt, I would have probably FoW'd the DRS. That guy is such a thorn in the side. Also, I would save at least 1 wasteland for cradle, no? since he resolved DRS, trying to deny him of mana doesn't seem like a very effective way to fight him. I would have either not forced DRS and saved all counters for glimpse / NO, or countered DRS and aggressively wasted. But alas, hindsight is 20/20.

@BDL

I for one don't much like foreign cards, but merry late christmas to you :tongue:

[samurai_socks]

@Samurai_Socks

If you had FoW in your opening hand with no bolt, I would have probably FoW'd the DRS. That guy is such a thorn in the side. Also, I would save at least 1 wasteland for cradle, no? since he resolved DRS, trying to deny him of mana doesn't seem like a very effective way to fight him. I would have either not forced DRS and saved all counters for glimpse / NO, or countered DRS and aggressively wasted. But alas, hindsight is 20/20.

@BDL

I for one don't much like foreign cards, but merry late christmas to you :tongue:

Generally speaking I dont think you can afford to waste FOW on anything but the following: Glimpse, NO and Wirewood Symbiote. Also depending on the board state somtimes GSZ. I was hoping to ponder into a bolt for the Deathrite but that didnt happen...How the game played out FOW may have been correct like you said but I dont think it is most of the time.

While it is true that repeatedly wasting elves non-cradle and non dryad arbor lands is no the best plan...I think you need to remember that elves dont actually run that many lands and that when the plan is to Rough//Tumble them you turn off Cradle anyway. The plan is a little risky but after I already anti tempo'd myself I think I have to get a little lucky to win the game anyway.

-Cheers-

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Generally speaking I dont think you can afford to waste FOW on anything but the following: Glimpse, NO and Wirewood Symbiote. Also depending on the board state somtimes GSZ. I was hoping to ponder into a bolt for the Deathrite but that didnt happen...How the game played out FOW may have been correct like you said but I dont think it is most of the time.

While it is true that repeatedly wasting elves non-cradle and non dryad arbor lands is no the best plan...I think you need to remember that elves dont actually run that many lands and that when the plan is to Rough//Tumble them you turn off Cradle anyway. The plan is a little risky but after I already anti tempo'd myself I think I have to get a little lucky to win the game anyway.

-Cheers-

Although I generally agree with your reasoning, I still think that you should have led with a dual so that you may:
- play/trick responses/removal
- cantrip
- play Rough immediatelly once you draw it
Then you should start Wasting,.
But well, there's that saying about corporals, battles and generals we all know... :smile: