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Irenicus
06-29-2009, 12:10 PM
@ Mind Harness

I think wether you play Submerge or Mind Harness comes down to personal preference. At my first tournament with Canadian Thresh I splitted 4 slots equally. But then I like Mind Harness a little bit more. We don't have any Eva Green player or Ugr Dreadstill player here but many Zoo players. In this matchup I just like Harness more and therefore I play them.

Genericcactus
06-29-2009, 12:23 PM
Isn't one of the main reasons we play Submerge is to answer the otherwise unanswerable Tombstalker? Can't we deal with whatever Mind Harness grabs with both Bolt and Fire//Ice?

Irenicus
06-29-2009, 12:50 PM
That depends. Fire/Ice isn't very hot vs. Zoo for example. But you are right, that Submerge is good option vs decks which play Forests and Tombstalker. But in my area I haven't seen a Tombstalker in the last two months. In the end it depends on your local meta and your personal preferences.

sauce
06-29-2009, 02:39 PM
you can deal w/ tombstalker using wipeaway and rushing river as well as 4 main deck ways to tap him down and swing.

im not saying he is not a problem, and submerge is not good vs monoblack or b/w.

btw i love wooded foothills as main fetchland in the deck because of what a previous poster said, but ill take it a step further.

at GP: Chicago, in rd2 I sat down and my 1st turn play ended up being wooded foothills and pass. I had a stifle in hand.
Since opponent did not put me on TT he went ahead and played his polluted delta and went to fetch, opening up his deck to search, while I was saying "wait up, response."
I called the judge and he gave him a warning. Then I fetched in response and stifled.
That put him on tilt pretty much and I ended up winning 2-0 vs ANT which is not a very easy matchup w/o CB/TOP. Game2 of that match, my opponent punted putting me to 1 life w/ tendrils while he actually had a Pact of negation to make it lethal.

This is where trickery really shines in magic imho. Play a fetchland that screams "ZOO" and then stifle them is just living the dream.

Tangle.Wire
06-29-2009, 07:35 PM
So is this the list you guys are running with the force spikes?

4 Goofy
4 Geese

4 Fire/Ice
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
2 Force Spike

18 Lands


So what do u do if they resolve something? i think bounce is the better way to handle the midgame-lategame problem better as they will play around daze anyway for threats so they dont mind if the play around my daze or my force spike.

Xero_2285
06-29-2009, 09:41 PM
So is this the list you guys are running with the force spikes?

4 Goofy
4 Geese

4 Fire/Ice
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
2 Force Spike

18 Lands


I'm currently testing that list but with 3 Snare, 2 Spike, 1 R.R. More testing is needed still.

sauce
06-29-2009, 10:51 PM
the best list is the one running 1 wipeaway 1 rushing river.
if you're not having success with goobafish's list, you're either:
1) playing the deck wrong
2) not the right deck for the metagame you're in

Enigma
06-29-2009, 11:04 PM
I feel sorry to say this, but this guy is right. I feel confidant with this deck and when my team-mates try the deck, they feel completly out of answer and clunky. They all tell me: How are you able to play this shitty deck and win?

But the most important thing to understand is that "1 mistake = 3 steps behind = really hard to comeback". This deck is everything about keeping up the edge. I recommand reading goobafish's article (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?id=7977) (This is a bit outdated for MU and SB, but still a good article).

Best tip I can give: PLAY FUCKING 4 SUBMERGES, hell!

P-M

Irenicus
06-30-2009, 03:27 AM
@ sauce/Enigma:

I agree with you that everyone who starts playing the deck should read goobafish's article and play his maindeck (maybe even his SB). But for those of us who played the deck with success, changing some cards depending on the meta and the personal playstyle might be a reasonable thing to do. In my opinion it's about knowing why goobafish plays this exact list of 60/15 cards and the circumstances where you are "allowed" to change a few slots.

johanessen
06-30-2009, 05:57 AM
@ sauce/Enigma:

I agree with you that everyone who starts playing the deck should read goobafish's article and play his maindeck (maybe even his SB). But for those of us who played the deck with success, changing some cards depending on the meta and the personal playstyle might be a reasonable thing to do. In my opinion it's about knowing why goobafish plays this exact list of 60/15 cards and the circumstances where you are "allowed" to change a few slots.

True story. But I always have the feeling that one bouncer is needed (or even a Krosan Grip MD if you want) because you have nothing to do with a resolved Moat, Solitary Confinement, and a long list, while you can still tap creatures or kill 'em with fire. So, at least one bounce/KGrip is needed in main deck.

Then, the sideboard is more customizable. I don't use Pyroclasm anymore -it's obsolete-, in favour of Pithing Needle, I love that card. In decks we used Pyroclasm we can side Needle in most cases for Vial or in Soldiers-Token decks naming Decree or Elspeth, stop wastelock, recurring EE, survival, help mana denial.

I'm playing this sideboard:

4 Submerge
4 Disrupt
3 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast

If i could free space i would add one copy of Engineered Explosives, maybe replacing a Krosan Grip. Who knows.

Bahamuth
06-30-2009, 06:24 AM
the best list is the one running 1 wipeaway 1 rushing river.
if you're not having success with goobafish's list, you're either:
1) playing the deck wrong
2) not the right deck for the metagame you're in

You have no right to claim here whatever the best list is. Especially if you do so without any serious arguments at all, except for just saying something similar to "If you don't agree, you suck with this deck". I'm positive the "best" list changes as the metagame changes. I know how this deck works and I do have succes with it. I will not blindly follow Goobafish's idea's without being critical and trying out other, viable options.

sauce
06-30-2009, 10:24 AM
You have no right to claim here whatever the best list is. Especially if you do so without any serious arguments at all, except for just saying something similar to "If you don't agree, you suck with this deck". I'm positive the "best" list changes as the metagame changes. I know how this deck works and I do have succes with it. I will not blindly follow Goobafish's idea's without being critical and trying out other, viable options.

thats the list (edit: AND pilot) that top8'd GP Chicago, unless I missed some other list that had Force spikes in the top8.

GGoober
06-30-2009, 10:40 AM
I'm intending to pick up Canadian Thresh. On paper, it seems that the deck runs into many problems (if the game drags late) but I think the idea on playing the tempo game as much as possible is really attractive and is an example of a very interactive deck full of excitement.

My main questions are:
Team America v.s. Canadian Thresh. They seem similar with all respects except that Nimble Mongoose v.s. Tombstalker and Bolt v.s. Sinkhole. I'm thinking that Tombstalker is much more attractive than Nimble Mongoose but with TA's manabase, it's harder to cast. I know that Bolt gives extra reach while Sinkhole makes for an even more tempo deck, so I'm wondering in what ways that Canadian Thresh is better as a tempo deck against TA. I know from paper, TA seems stronger but in play, Canadian Thresh is better since burn gives so much more reach and Mongoose are hard to deal with, not to mention I guess red gives a much better SB plan against other decks than black (REB, Pyroclasm).

I like the idea of Force Spike in the deck. Spike has given me much trouble as being an unexpected card. MUC ran it for awhile but cannot abuse the tempo as much as this deck can. However, I think maybe 2 Disrupt instead of 2 Force Spike in the MD is better? In the late game, it becomes a cantrip instead of being useless. It does not counter creatures, but you have bolt/snares for Goyfs and other creatures, and bounce for bigger creatures. Against Landstill/eva/deadguy, it seems like Disrupt would be much better.

My meta likes aggro (deadguy, 3 Zoo, Eva/DStompy, Goblins/Elves) so I think tempo thresh is much better than TA with the availability of pyroclasm and burn.

Bahamuth
06-30-2009, 10:40 AM
thats the list (edit: AND pilot) that top8'd GP Chicago, unless I missed some other list that had Force spikes in the top8.

Which is no reason to run that list at all. There's no way in telling wether the list was optimal, even though it performed this well. We've seen strange and suboptimal lists aquire high positions in large tournaments before.

sauce
06-30-2009, 12:00 PM
Which is no reason to run that list at all. There's no way in telling wether the list was optimal, even though it performed this well. We've seen strange and suboptimal lists aquire high positions in large tournaments before.

I guess you're right, there I was thinking that results actually proved things.

matelml
07-01-2009, 04:39 PM
I guess you're right, there I was thinking that results actually proved things.

This deck can easily win a big tournament eventhough it's suboptimal. As long as the suboptimal cards aren't horrible and there are not too many in the list it's even very likely it will win a big tournament even if it's suboptimal. Just add 1 dual/fetch instead of 1 open slot and you are still fine and likely to win with the list. Or imagine playing 1 resounding wave instead of the Wipe Away, do you really think a change that small will mean the list won't win a tournament? It's impossible to prove a "best list". That's why you should be open for suggestions.

@sauce: got PM.

sauce
07-01-2009, 04:44 PM
This deck can easily win a big tournament eventhough it's suboptimal. As long as the suboptimal cards aren't horrible and there are not too many in the list it's even very likely it will win a big tournament even if it's suboptimal. Just add 1 dual/fetch instead of 1 open slot and you are still fine and likely to win with the list. Or imagine playing 1 resounding wave instead of the Wipe Away, do you really think a change that small will mean the list won't win a tournament? It's impossible to prove a "best list". That's why you should be open for suggestions.

if youre not duncan or hugo, who are you?

DragoFireheart
07-01-2009, 08:12 PM
if youre not duncan or hugo, who are you?

An evil ghost? A devious clone?

And I would sooner fit in Counterspell over Force Spike if we are considering new counters. At least Counterspell won't be a dead draw later on.

Al-ucard
07-02-2009, 02:07 AM
Do you guys don't have problem with 1 cc cards like wild nacalt, kird ape, aether vial or relic of progenitus? We only have first turn daze (on the play) or fow to counter them.

Maybe is a good call put chain lightning or another 3 damage card in side against this creatures and more needles against this artifacts...

Thoughts?

miko
07-02-2009, 03:41 AM
I think engineered explosives deals with that sort of "threads". i tend to play 2-3 in sb.

Nihil Credo
07-02-2009, 11:33 AM
The opening of this thread has been filled with Shugyosha's freshly updated primer. Check it out!

Cenarius
07-03-2009, 08:48 AM
@ Nihil Credo: The primer looks nice, thanks for helping/posting the primer.

@ Sauce: Does it matter who he is? Well maybe it does. Does it matter who you are? Well maybe it does, but does it matter for the discussion: No.

I agree that Tempo Threshold is a deck that has about 2 open slots. You can fill them up with Bounce or Clique and Bounce or Predator and Bounce or in our case 2 Force Spike (removing an extra Spell Snare for another Force Spike). It really doesn't matter since the deck itself is already powerful.
Personally, I'm pretty confidant that I benefit by adding 3 Force Spike and removing 1 Spell Snare and 2 Bounce from the original list. Maybe it's just the way I play the deck. Hoping for a bounce card to bounce a card from which you'll loose or having a Wipeaway/Rushing River in your starting hand is not the way I want to play the deck.
I'm pretty confidant aswell that you guys should try Force Spike atleast a couple of times to become familiar with our (Team Nijmegen) idea.

@ DragoFireheart

Ok, serious. Give arguments why you want to fit in Counterspell. I'm curious why you want to play Counterspell over Force Spike. Just give arguments before even concluding things without testing it. So please, give arguments or start testing my Force Spike's.

@ Al-ucard

Well our list has many more outs than just 4 daze and 4 force. By adding 3 Force Spike to the list every one-drop that seems potentially dangerous can be countered by Force Spike's.
You don't want to put Chain Lightning's in your sideboard. Trust me.

Ch@os
07-03-2009, 08:57 AM
... case 2 Force Spike ... for another Force Spike ... by adding 3 Force Spike ... you want to play Counterspell over Force Spike ... start testing my Force Spike's ... adding 3 Force Spike ... can be countered by Force Spike's.


Oook, i think we get it, i testet Force Spike and i dont like it.
Plz respect another opinion on the playstyle without "FS", thx.
Disrupt in the SB = WIN!

Cenarius
07-03-2009, 09:27 AM
Ch@os:

Against what decks did you play?
How many games did you test with it?
How long do you play Tempo Threshold?
Do you know Tempo Threshold well? (May seem a bit harsh but I just want to know)
What is your current list?

It was not my intention to flood you guys with FS. However, many of the FS's that are in my post are just quote's by other people or trying to persuade some other guys to test FS's.

sauce
07-03-2009, 09:29 AM
force spike - its the stone cold nuts if you have it when you need it, its terrible just like daze if you did not have enough wasteland/stifles early on or are in the late game.
i think the ratio of 4 daze to 8 mana denial cards (4 waste, 4 stifle) is already correct.
ive played the list that ran 2 counterspell 1 force spike -3 fire/ice and i think goobafish's list is better.

Charlatan
07-03-2009, 10:57 AM
Hey guys.

Always when i am in a bad situation, I usualy want to topdeck a bounce spell, don't you?

I think that our big concern are about clique or even another creatures...

TempoThresh with red is my favourite deck at the moment...

and a SB that splashes UGR is unfair. We can handle a lot of things.

We shouldn't argue about a fixed list, but around which cards we could switch in several metas. So i think that FS could have a little space. But that's it.

So, we should nominate some cards to players choose what they think best...

Ty

DragoFireheart
07-03-2009, 11:21 AM
@ DragoFireheart

Ok, serious. Give arguments why you want to fit in Counterspell. I'm curious why you want to play Counterspell over Force Spike. Just give arguments before even concluding things without testing it. So please, give arguments or start testing my Force Spike's.


Counterspell:

+ Hard counter. No situational requirements to use it.
+ Potent late game. Doesn't need the opponent to be low on mana, nor does it require an extra card in your hand.
- Requires two mana to be open.


And I don't NEED to test force spike, as all it acts like is a poor mans Daze, and we already know how Daze works. Daze is great in the early game but ONLY because you can be tapped out to allow you to drop a mongoose or a ponder. You can't do that with Force Spike. Counterspell also suffers that same problem of needing mana open, but at least it will be useful throughout the entire game.

Waikiki
07-03-2009, 11:32 AM
Why not just discuss boarding plans or play strategy vs specific decks instead of arguing what those last 2/3 slots should be. Play the cards you feel most comfortable with geez.

I would like to know boarding plans against decks with alot of basics like MUC or Merfolk.

When do you side out stifle anyways?

gr,

Dennis Baauw

Wargoos
07-03-2009, 12:21 PM
When do you side out stifle anyways?
Against fetchlandless Combo. (mostly for blast)

Mountain Man
07-03-2009, 12:34 PM
When do you side out stifle anyways?Against fetchlandless Combo. (mostly for blast)

Really? Stifle is awesome against Combo: it counters Storm-Ability!

sauce
07-03-2009, 01:29 PM
Really? Stifle is awesome against Combo: it counters Storm-Ability!

see: orim's chant

DragoFireheart
07-03-2009, 01:50 PM
see: orim's chant

Just save counters for the chant then. At that point, they MUST get rid of Stifle from your hand, else they will not be able to combo off.

Bahamuth
07-03-2009, 01:55 PM
Besides, your burn and your creatures definitely come out first.

keys
07-03-2009, 07:28 PM
Disrupt in the SB = WIN!

Better than Divert?

What do you SB Disrupt against?

What do you take out?

BackDr0p
07-03-2009, 09:44 PM
Just save counters for the chant then. At that point, they MUST get rid of Stifle from your hand, else they will not be able to combo off.

If you counter Orim's Chant VS Storm Combo, they will have most likely drawn the necessary tools (Pact of Negation, Duress) via Ad Nauseam to deal with the Stifle in you hand in most cases.

MULocke
07-04-2009, 12:06 AM
If you counter Orim's Chant VS Storm Combo, they will have most likely drawn the necessary tools (Pact of Negation, Duress) via Ad Nauseam to deal with the Stifle in you hand in most cases.

They chant you before they play ad nauseam. If AdN is resolving, you're losing (unless a bolt of two gets there off bad flips).

Disrupt is amazing against cantrips, mostly. It wreaks havok on storm combo because they act like discard spells that counter brainstorms, ponders and mystical tutors. They can also be useful against control and decks with big spells, in addition to (not replacement of) daze. The thing is, many people know how to play around one daze. Two dazes is just a house, though.

sauce
07-04-2009, 09:32 AM
disrupt is in the sb to replace daze on the draw

Bahamuth
07-04-2009, 12:34 PM
disrupt is in the sb to replace daze on the draw

Why is Daze the most likely card to be cut for Disrupt? If we're talking Combo matchup, I really hope you don't board out Daze.

sauce
07-04-2009, 12:54 PM
Why is Daze the most likely card to be cut for Disrupt? If we're talking Combo matchup, I really hope you don't board out Daze.

because you're playing tempo thresh, on the draw you're already losing the tempo battle just because your opponent goes first and daze will set yourself back 2 turns if they make a 2nd land drop on turn2.

disrupt is like a force spike but cantrips, though its only hitting instants/sorceries and not cb, goyf, confidant, etc..

Waikiki
07-04-2009, 06:21 PM
I would cut 2 bolts and 2 bounce spells to get in disrupt vs combo not the daze.

sauce
07-05-2009, 10:55 AM
I would cut 2 bolts and 2 bounce spells to get in disrupt vs combo not the daze.

depends what type of combo, if its ANT, bolt is actually super relevant because if you don't have goyf/mongoose u bolt them and they can die from ad nauseam if they go off, or just opt to get a suboptimal hand or whatever..

i would keep all possible counterspells vs combo as well, dazes stay in, disrupts come in, i would say fire/ice or mongoose comes out.
game rarely goes long for u to get threshold so lightning bolt 3dmg vs mongoose 1dmg/turn seems logical.
ice is kinda good vs them, but fire seems better, though at 2 mana u wanna keep some up to be able to counter things..

at GP: Chicago i used 2 reb/2 beb in my board instead of disrupts and it was cool, even though i never played vs the burning wish ANT build, i brought in my 2 REB's vs ANT cuz they helped vs their mystical tutor/brainstorm and pact of negation.

Dark_Cynic87
07-05-2009, 12:43 PM
You guys know that 8-chant combo is drawing nigh, right? CB may be the only option to stop combo for lists like Thresh. Ad Nauseam + 8 chants and the option of storm also running REB/P-Blast could really spell disaster for non-cb lists that depend on Stifle to stop Storm. Just a heads up I guess.

Pce,

--DC

Elfrago
07-05-2009, 01:38 PM
You guys know that 8-chant combo is drawing nigh, right? CB may be the only option to stop combo for lists like Thresh. Ad Nauseam + 8 chants and the option of storm also running REB/P-Blast could really spell disaster for non-cb lists that depend on Stifle to stop Storm. Just a heads up I guess.

Pce,

--DC

I don't hink people are going to play 8 chants. While nice against counterspells they do absolutely nothing against Counterbalance, while Duress saves the day.
Aside from this, you can still counter their set-up spells and try to slow them down for enough time.

sauce
07-05-2009, 02:05 PM
i think spell snare in the board for ANT is way better than anything else because it stops every single hate piece except for the obscure ones like rule of law and arcane laboratory...

spell snare > teeg, canonist, counterbalance, null rod(lol), runed halo.. just to name a few.

Dark_Cynic87
07-05-2009, 02:43 PM
For anyone that cares, I'll be playing this list +/- like 2-3 cards for awhile:

X Polluted Delta
X Flooded Strand
X Island
X Plains
X Swamp
X Tundra
X Scrubland
X Underground Sea
X Tropical Island
X Bayou
X Lotus Petal
X Lion's Eye Diamond
X Dark Ritual
X Rain of Filth
X Sensei's Divining Top
X Brainstorm
X Ponder
4 Orim's Chant
4 Silence
X Wipe Away
X Krosan Grip
X Mystical Tutor
X Doomsday
X Meditate
X Ill-Gotten Gains
X Tendrils of Agony


I think you are wrong. Sideboards of storm lists have quite a bit of Bounce and Artifact/Enchantment hate such as but not limited to:

Serenity
Rebuild
Hurkyl's Recall
Krosan Grip
Rushing River
Chain of Vapor
Echoing Truth
Reverent Silence

The list goes on. The point is that CB is decently scary, but with Wipe Away and Krosan Grip in the maindeck, 4 chants is enough. If I'm playing in a heavy blue meta, I will turn one Mystical Tutor for Wipe Away/Grip so I have the best chance I can of getting rid of the CB. Games 2 and 3 (If game 3 becomes relevant) get strictly better for storm.

Pce,

--DC

DragoFireheart
07-05-2009, 07:05 PM
I have a couple questions:


- How does this deck (UGR variant) do against Merfolk and Zoo?

- What are some optimal hands to keep?

tivadar
07-05-2009, 07:21 PM
I have a couple questions:
- How does this deck (UGR variant) do against Merfolk and Zoo?
- What are some optimal hands to keep?

I'm coming from the merfolk side of things, but in all my testing, preboard this deck flops heavy to merfolk. Merfolk just has too many threats for you to deal with, and bigger card advantage. If you're packing maindeck artifact hate, you might do better, but it's far from an easy matchup. Your best chance against them is going to be a big fast goyf/geese. Burn might slow them down a bit, but unless you have a threat on the board, they can standstill you and play through to the victory, or to huge card advantage.

johanessen
07-05-2009, 07:40 PM
I have a couple questions:


- How does this deck (UGR variant) do against Merfolk and Zoo?

- What are some optimal hands to keep?

Bolt the LoA's and keep the snares for Standstills and Adepts. Vial has to be Fow'ed / Daz'ed.

Post side, Pyroclasm is anything but good against them. Use Needles if you have or EE, and keep the Pyros for they big threats (read LoA, Adept, Standstill), and side out the stifles.

sauce
07-05-2009, 08:56 PM
Bolt the LoA's and keep the snares for Standstills and Adepts. Vial has to be Fow'ed / Daz'ed.

Post side, Pyroclasm is anything but good against them. Use Needles if you have or EE, and keep the Pyros for they big threats (read LoA, Adept, Standstill), and side out the stifles.

i had no problems crushing folk @ the GP with this list.
the red blasts in the board are amazing (obv) and main deck 4 fire/ice and 4 bolts as well as 4 goyfs are just sick not ill.
keep bolts for their combat tricks w/ vial and keep them off LoA.

Maveric78f
07-06-2009, 04:57 AM
Let me change subject. What do you think about 1*isochron scepter MD in the red variant?

I personnally find it awesome with fire/ice, acting as mana denial+extra draw or desperate kill, and it's difficult for the opponent to hate out, since we don't play any other enchantment or artifact. As a consequence to this, I play echoing truth instead of the Wipe Away slot (but I keep rushing river in).

In SB, I like to play a lot of different cards. I've always thought it was the best strategy to have various dedicated redundant singletons in SB and use the cantrips to find the best of them.

Lands 19:
8 fetches
6 duals
1 island
4 wastes

Creatures 8:
4 tarmo
4 gooses

4-ofs 28:
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
4 Stifle

X-ofs :
2 Spell Snare
1 Rushing River
1 Echoing Truth
1 Isochron Scepter

SB:
2 REB
1 Pyroblast
1 BEB
1 EE
2 Grip
1 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Mind Harness
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Submerge
3 Pyroclasm
1 Pithing Needle

Cenarius
07-06-2009, 05:26 AM
Personally, I think that with our list has a better matchup against both Zoo and Merfolk. Force Spike has some value over here, since vial and standstill/LoA etc. will be played in the first two rounds, which gives us the option to use Force Spike. Our sideboard gives us: 4 Pyroblast, 2/3 Pithing Needle and 2/3 Pyroclasm. We intend to play this sideboard, because Merfolk is played heavily during (some) tournaments over here.
So all in all our postboard gives:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
4 Pyroblast
2/3 Pyroclam
(as removal)
2/3 Pithing Needle
4 Goyf (duh?)

I should be enough.

Zoo. Well it really depends on the list. Some list over here tends to play a 5-colour manabase for tribal flames. It's easy to get them manascrewed for running such a manabase. A hand that simply can answer their first threath, stifling their second fetch and wasting their land is probably a Good Game. Multiples is even better. Remember that when removing Taiga as the only land: Fire/Ice will kill both Catl and Kird Ape (if it's played).
So with Zoo: it just depends on the lists played. However this matchup should be positive in any way. Mongoose is a house against Zoo, since they cannot get rid of it. Zoo will be topdecking in Mid-Game making us they favorites. The first few turns will be vital to survive. Force Spike also helps a lot in this matchup. If you are on the play: 1 or 2 Force Spike will save you the day.
With Postboard you got:

Submerge
Bolt
Fire/Ice

This should be enough removal.

@ maveric78f

What is the benefit for playing sub-optimal cards like Threads of Disloyalty, Mind Harness óver Submerge?
You cannot simply search these cards if you only play one of them. The usual amount of cantrips you get in one game is like 2 or 3. Good luck searching an answer ánd enough counters ánd creatures.

Maveric78f
07-06-2009, 06:17 AM
I don't see the benefit of playing suboptimal cards. I just don't get how mind harness for instance is suboptimal over submerge. I see even less when your game plan is to manscrew your opponent and definitely cut his green spells. I'll give you a game example I encounter often :
You play against some Thresh variant. He plays a fetch, you stifle. You play goose. He plays fetch, fetches for island. You play cantrips. He plays trop island and lands a goyf. You waste his trop. He's mana screwed but you can't do anything with your submerge, although you could play Mind Harness (or threads) and win the game before he could come back into the game.

I'm not stating that Mind Harness is better than submerge neither. They are just cards that are played in different situations and different MUs too. In most cases, all the three debated cards are as good, but they do it in a different way and being able to chose the one you play in a particular situation, wins games.

Seb
07-06-2009, 12:25 PM
(1rst post, long-reader, new poster...)

In my short testing experience with this deck, Submerge always have been awesome.


You play against some Thresh variant. He plays a fetch, you stifle. You play goose. He plays fetch, fetches for island. You play cantrips. He plays trop island and lands a goyf. You waste his trop. He's mana screwed but you can't do anything with your submerge, although you could play Mind Harness (or threads) and win the game before he could come back into the game.

In this case, I would simply submerge the Goyf before wasting his Tropical Island. Maybe he won't even be able to cast it back!

The problem I find with Mind Harness is that it's mana intensive, and this deck plays only 18 lands (with 4 wastes!). Sure, if you just need to clear the path FTW, it's ok since you won't have to pay the upkeep, but in this case, Submerge is even better since it costs nothing, have a CC of 5 (CB-Top considerations), and deny them 1 draw if you don't win right away.

DragoFireheart
07-06-2009, 01:43 PM
A single Isochron Scepter sounds pretty interesting, though I wonder if it diverts from our theme too much.

Also, it's a pretty bad top deck as well and doesn't feed our graveyard.

Maveric78f
07-06-2009, 02:17 PM
In this case, I would simply submerge the Goyf before wasting his Tropical Island. Maybe he won't even be able to cast it back!
The problem is that you won't wait to find sumerge to waste his trop. Of course if you have already your solution to tarmo in hand, both are good. Maybe I did not advocate enough for mind harness for you to understand how it can compete with submerge :
- you play the aggro role in most MUs against green
- if you're aggro, and your opponent tarmo (let's say the target is tarmo) is here to block you rather to aggress you in most cases. If you control it, then you have a 1-turn or 2-turns clock.
- you play stifle to keep it 1 or 2 turns more (stifle helps often to cantrip into another land or another stifle)
- it works against dragon stompy and some random decks
- it works when your opponent is green-deathed

I can also say that submerge is also very good becasue it's free, it dodges chalice and counterbalance, because it works on non green creatures, because it's hard removal in resp to a fetch, because it's instant and it allows combat tricks, etc...

The fact is that neither the one or the other is good when you have no pressure on board, because they are only tempo cards. When you have pressure and your opponent has a single creature, then I think that in most cases mind harness is better, becasue you'll kill faster thanks to the creature you've stolen. But when he's got several creatures, then submerge is probably better because it does not slow you down, becasue of combat tricks, etc... They are complementary in this way and in the fact that submerge does not need greenness and mind harness does not need forestness. The fact that you play a split between those prevents you from having twice the bad solution in SB or in hand.

Maveric78f
07-06-2009, 02:20 PM
A single Isochron Scepter sounds pretty interesting, though I wonder if it diverts from our theme too much.

Also, it's a pretty bad top deck as well and doesn't feed our graveyard.

As for myself, I play 19 lands, so maybe it's easier to support scepter. Scepter is clearly a late game card. I've seen some lists playing Coatl, Vendilion or Trygon MD and I tried those (except Coatl, because I think it's weak in this deck), and I prefer Scepter. As every late game cards, scepter will win you games just in itself but you will also keep it stuck in hand during the whole game. I'm still not sold on this choice but I like how it prevents an alternate kill and makes the deck more difficult to hate out.

Tangle.Wire
07-07-2009, 07:42 AM
but reaching the lategame is not they way we gonna win, we already discussed this point ;D isochron scepter is not as good as it seems on the paper, clique and trygon both are faster/more agressive and normally people can handle it pretty good + u lose a handcard.

Al-ucard
07-07-2009, 07:52 AM
Last friday I have to quit 1 land and test with 17 because I get mana flooded sometimes. Anyone who tested with 17 lands?

Waikiki
07-07-2009, 07:58 AM
In my experience its too low because im running 4 wasteland.

MULocke
07-07-2009, 04:56 PM
Alternatively, you could play Counterbalance. It costs the same as scepter, but just wins the game instead of being cute. That's another deck, though. Scepter is just dead too often.

As for submerge, threads/mind harness is really nice against decks you tend to get into goyf wars with (decks that play him, I guess). I like both if you expect lots of thresh, but they do seem redundant with submerge. If you boarded in submerge in the mirror, you at least should be aware of that fact and work to bring the game state to where submerge is good. Yes, I know this sounds dumb and overly simplified. However, I've found in the mirror that both decks tend to flood much more than get screwed. Yes, there are times where someone keeps a one-lander and gets wasted out of the game. A majority of them go long because you both run more counterspells than threats. Thus, there is ample time to blow them out with submerge in response to a fetch, or just after you've found a spell snare. This way, you get to run a card that deals with other matchups rather than waste sideboard space with threads/mind harness (submerge is better in general for beating up on aggro loam and anything with tombstalker and forests).

Nazgath
07-07-2009, 11:21 PM
Let me change subject. What do you think about 1*isochron scepter MD in the red variant?

I personnally find it awesome with fire/ice, acting as mana denial+extra draw or desperate kill, and it's difficult for the opponent to hate out, since we don't play any other enchantment or artifact. As a consequence to this, I play echoing truth instead of the Wipe Away slot (but I keep rushing river in).

In SB, I like to play a lot of different cards. I've always thought it was the best strategy to have various dedicated redundant singletons in SB and use the cantrips to find the best of them.

Lands 19:
8 fetches
6 duals
1 island
4 wastes

Creatures 8:
4 tarmo
4 gooses

4-ofs 28:
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
4 Stifle

X-ofs :
2 Spell Snare
1 Rushing River
1 Echoing Truth
1 Isochron Scepter

SB:
2 REB
1 Pyroblast
1 BEB
1 EE
2 Grip
1 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Mind Harness
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Submerge
3 Pyroclasm
1 Pithing Needle
First of all, I run 19 lands as well. High five!

Isochron Scepter: You sir, have just answered my prayers for a juice slot in Canadian Thresh. I have often found that Caplan's list empties its hand just a little bit too fast. This issue is mitigated by Isochron Scepter. We could technically even support 2... I dismissed the idea due to never wanting to see a Scepter twice. I'm not a 100% sure, though.

On to your list, I believe Spell Snare to be a pivotal card in today's Threshold builds. An enemy's resolved Counterbalance or Tarmogoyf is a bane.
I don't think Echoing Truth is the bounce spell we want, since it is suboptimal against Counterbalance and while bouncing the most common creature in the format, it will also return your own "but I just want to be loved" Goyf to your warm embrace. And let's be honest here, nobody wants to cuddle with Lhurgoyfs.

I prefer Rushing River over Wipe Away as well since bouncing an additional permanent is sex.
Not commenting on the sideboard since I'm a bit wet behind the ears on that.


I am certainly going to continue testing the singleton Scepter since I've found it pleasing thus far.



Alternatively, you could play Counterbalance. It costs the same as scepter, but just wins the game instead of being cute. That's another deck, though. Scepter is just dead too often.
Exactly. Discussing Counterbalance in this deck is pointless. Therefore, I won't further comment on that part.
Could you elaborate on the "Scepter is just dead too often" statement? Because I see 12 Imprint-worthy spells on my list.

keys
07-07-2009, 11:36 PM
Exactly. Discussing Counterbalance in this deck is pointless. Therefore, I won't further comment on that part.
Could you elaborate on the "Scepter is just dead too often" statement? Because I see 12 Imprint-worthy spells on my list.

I don't think the problem is that it's dead too often. The problem is it's a 2-for-1 if it gets countered, stifled, or destroyed. That, and it's a little too mana-intensive for this deck.

It's definitely cute though.

Nazgath
07-07-2009, 11:58 PM
I don't think the problem is that it's dead too often. The problem is it's a 2-for-1 if it gets countered, stifled, or destroyed. That, and it's a little too mana-intensive for this deck.

It's definitely cute though.
The only valid point I see here is it being Stifled.

If it's countered, great! If it's destroyed.. well.
Who is going to board in artifact hate for a 1-of?

About the mana-intensiveness: I'll have to test and think more on this.

nitewolf9
07-08-2009, 12:00 AM
The problem is it's a 2-for-1 if it gets countered, stifled, or destroyed.


The only time it's a 2 for 1 is if it gets destroyed. You don't imprint anything if it gets countered or stifled. Game 1 it could be really strong against alot of decks (then you board it out if they see it, rendering their grips useless). But it seems just way too slow and counter intuitive for a deck like this. I think it would be more at home in a control deck.

Maveric78f
07-08-2009, 01:29 AM
Alternatively, you could play Counterbalance. It costs the same as scepter,
Wrong. You play 15 coloured lands. Paying UU is far more of a problem than paying 2.


but just wins the game instead of being cute.
Can you explain how a counterbalance singleton in a tempothresh list makes it a better killer card than scepter.


Scepter is just dead too often.
...

Scepter barely never does 2 for 1 since you will usually play it and activate it in the same turn. As stated before trhe 2 for 1 happens only when destroyed and not activated.

Scepter is :
- kill with bolt or fire
- creature control with fire, bolt or ice
- mana severance with ice
- card advantage with ice and brainstorm
- stall with ice or echoing truth

when you imprint fire/ice you get to choose what's your strategy every turn.

It's really versatile. Its single weakness is of being over the curve of this deck.

jazzykat
07-08-2009, 02:06 AM
I haven't followed this thread for the last 5 pages, but doesn't the whole idea of using Isochron Scepter fly in the face of tempo? Also having it as a 1 off, doesn't necessarily gurantee that you draw it, and if you do then you need to put it together with an instant.

Tangle.Wire
07-08-2009, 07:29 AM
I haven't followed this thread for the last 5 pages, but doesn't the whole idea of using Isochron Scepter fly in the face of tempo? Also having it as a 1 off, doesn't necessarily gurantee that you draw it, and if you do then you need to put it together with an instant.

Thats it, we would have to play the scepter turn 2 to use it since turn 3 unless it gets countered or removed. Removing a single Scepter won't be a Problem for most decks so i think we wont use scepter more than 2 times as we also want to play other spells and cant keep the 2 mana open every turn.

Also Scepter is more a control card and will just hinder ourself to swing around quick enough. If we really wanted to use the scepter we needed instands with cc 2 instead of the 3 mana solutions (predator,clique,river,wipe away) to use the scepter well but this makes the spells weak on their own if we dont draw/play the scepter.

Maveric78f
07-08-2009, 08:02 AM
Scepter is still only a secondary wincon. I usually play it only when I have nothing relevant else to play and/or when I have an instant to play in hand that I want to play and I have 4 manas avaible and/or when my creatures are getting controled.

Being as a 1-of, yes we don't necessarily have it when we need it, but we are quite sure not to keep it in hand when we don't need it.

From my testings, I'm quite new with this deck, so I would estimate that I've done 60 games with it on MWS, and I can definitely remember 5 games that I would have lost without Scepter :
- a game where I mana denied Ubg control (Togless), cutting green preventing it from playing tarmo or deed (imprint fire/ice)
- a game where I won the speed battle against burn (imprint bolt)
- a game where I've beaten landstill (with cunning wish) around 2 or 3 standstill (even with all this draw, he never found a solution to the scepter) (imprint bolt)
- a game where I finished off some Bant after he took control of the board. (imprint fire/ice)
- a game where Fire destroyed all the opposing gobs and stifle prevented him to continue its CA (imprint fire/ice)

I've never imprinted BS for now, but in a control MU I would not hesitate.

Considering that I've lost something around 15 games on the 60 I've played. I doubt that Scepter in the list was the determining reason why I've lost 5 of them. Moreover, if I showed it game 1, I almost always SB it out.

dtrooper
07-10-2009, 09:47 PM
Scepter is still only a secondary wincon. I usually play it only when I have nothing relevant else to play and/or when I have an instant to play in hand that I want to play and I have 4 manas avaible and/or when my creatures are getting controled.

Being as a 1-of, yes we don't necessarily have it when we need it, but we are quite sure not to keep it in hand when we don't need it.

From my testings, I'm quite new with this deck, so I would estimate that I've done 60 games with it on MWS, and I can definitely remember 5 games that I would have lost without Scepter :
- a game where I mana denied Ubg control (Togless), cutting green preventing it from playing tarmo or deed (imprint fire/ice)
- a game where I won the speed battle against burn (imprint bolt)
- a game where I've beaten landstill (with cunning wish) around 2 or 3 standstill (even with all this draw, he never found a solution to the scepter) (imprint bolt)
- a game where I finished off some Bant after he took control of the board. (imprint fire/ice)
- a game where Fire destroyed all the opposing gobs and stifle prevented him to continue its CA (imprint fire/ice)

I've never imprinted BS for now, but in a control MU I would not hesitate.

Considering that I've lost something around 15 games on the 60 I've played. I doubt that Scepter in the list was the determining reason why I've lost 5 of them. Moreover, if I showed it game 1, I almost always SB it out.

I agree that Isochron Scepter isn't just cute. It wins games. I even beat D&T today by imprinting a Stifle on it, preventing AEther Vial activations. Corner case, yes, but those explained above by Maveric are not.

You will hardly encounter an opponent playing enough bounce or artifact destruction against Tempo Threshold in particular to consider Isochron Scepter card disavantage. More often than not, getting several uses out of your Fires, Ices and Lightning Bolts is, despite weird on the curve, devastating.

DragoFireheart
07-11-2009, 10:17 PM
What ever happened to this deck having a 1 or 2 of Fledgling Dragon as a finisher? Was it just too hard to cast?

sauce
07-11-2009, 10:31 PM
has anyone considered swapping the rushing river/wipeaway for 2 cryptic commands?
it serves similar purposes but is stronger for late game..
i would probably run an extra land if i were to run those..

MULocke
07-12-2009, 12:00 AM
Cards that cost 4 tend to get awkward with the lack of lands... stalling out with dead cards in hand really sucks. Cryptic could be really good, t probably deserves testing (add basic island and two cryptics?). Fledgling dragon is big, but costing four stinks just to get a threat. Try Vendilion Clique, Trygon Predator, etc.

goobafish
07-12-2009, 08:52 AM
has anyone considered swapping the rushing river/wipeaway for 2 cryptic commands?
it serves similar purposes but is stronger for late game..
i would probably run an extra land if i were to run those..

I have actually made this swap before. They are really hard to cast, and frankly, not worth it.

DragoFireheart
07-12-2009, 01:24 PM
Cards that cost 4 tend to get awkward with the lack of lands... stalling out with dead cards in hand really sucks. Cryptic could be really good, t probably deserves testing (add basic island and two cryptics?). Fledgling dragon is big, but costing four stinks just to get a threat. Try Vendilion Clique, Trygon Predator, etc.


Dragon will end games when it hits play, and is much harder for counterbalance to hit.

It can also trade with Stalker and eat other fliers.

Adan
07-12-2009, 05:53 PM
Dragon will end games when it hits play, and is much harder for counterbalance to hit.

And by that you mean you tap yourself out and just can't back it up with anything else but Force? I'd love to see that.

Seriously, Dragon is way over the curve and shouldn't be considered in a non-Counterbalance-build where you can't protect him efficiently.

Counterbalance was and still is the reason why creatures like Mystic Enforcer, Dragon and Sower are actually playable, because they are (average) a 3 turn clock. But in order to make that clock work, they have to remain on the table somehow. Counterbalance can do that, but how does Tempothresh accomplish that?

DragoFireheart
07-12-2009, 06:56 PM
And by that you mean you tap yourself out and just can't back it up with anything else but Force? I'd love to see that.

Seriously, Dragon is way over the curve and shouldn't be considered in a non-Counterbalance-build where you can't protect him efficiently.

Counterbalance was and still is the reason why creatures like Mystic Enforcer, Dragon and Sower are actually playable, because they are (average) a 3 turn clock. But in order to make that clock work, they have to remain on the table somehow. Counterbalance can do that, but how does Tempothresh accomplish that?


Nothing.

Nope, all tempo thresh does is play Tarmogoyfs and fetchlands. /sarcasm.


Umm... mana denial? And I'm not suggesting that Dragon be a 4 of: he could be a 1 OR 2 of as a back up plan in case our mana denial doesn't work.

beastman
07-12-2009, 07:05 PM
How does dragon end the game when it hits play? Hes really not that good in the first place. Clique would be much better in that slot.

rockout
07-12-2009, 08:52 PM
I think clique is better, in the fledgling slot, because he can protect himself with his ability to look at your opponents hand and get rid of their removal spell and beat with evasion.

BackDr0p
07-12-2009, 09:20 PM
...he can protect himself by look at your opponents hand get rid of their removal spell and beat with evasion.


Not necessarily, they can always put the ability on the stack, then STP, Bolt, Path, etc. in response.

goobafish
07-12-2009, 09:22 PM
I think it is much more logical to argue against Fledgling Dragon by looking at it's mana cost, and not by comparing it to other creatures. Spells that cost four mana just do not belong in this deck.

rockout
07-12-2009, 10:26 PM
Not necessarily, they can always put the ability on the stack, then STP, Bolt, Path, etc. in response.

Well, 2/3 of those removal spells kill dragon without the ability to "protect" himself.


I think it is much more logical to argue against Fledgling Dragon by looking at it's mana cost, and not by comparing it to other creatures. Spells that cost four mana just do not belong in this deck.

I also agree to this as well.

DragoFireheart
07-12-2009, 11:24 PM
I think it is much more logical to argue against Fledgling Dragon by looking at it's mana cost, and not by comparing it to other creatures. Spells that cost four mana just do not belong in this deck.

But he's not the main plan: he's the backup plan.

There are decks that game one will not give a damn about our Stifles and Wastelands (merfolk?).

miko
07-13-2009, 03:43 AM
That is when you have to rely on your sideboard. pyroclasm, reb and sometimes even engineered explosives can win that matchup. not to forget: you have bolts and fire/ice in your main deck. so i would not be too afraid of merfolk.

and fletchling dragon is not an autowin against decks like merfolk.

Maveric78f
07-13-2009, 04:08 AM
How dragon would be better than isochron sceptre as an alternate wincon? First of all dragon is not that much alternate since it's another graveyard dependent creature. Second it does not have any control matter. And third it's a complete dead card when you don't have 4 lands in play, which happens rarely in 15- non-wasteland lands deck.

I could understand when some people discarded isochron scepter because it is too slow for that deck. But I can't understand how you justify to play fledging dragon instead.

BackDr0p
07-13-2009, 11:47 AM
First of all dragon is not that much alternate since it's another graveyard dependent creature.


That is what I've realized w/ this deck. We've come to rely completely on our graveyards. As a result I find that this deck has a hard time recovering from a protected turn 1 or turn 2 relic or planar void (which is seeing play in RB Vial Goblins). This is something that a relatively common MU such as Merfolk, is known for.

Although, we do have the necessary removal via burn and REB/Pyroblasts, they run the same mana base disruption suite (Stifle/Wasteland). We are also more vulnerable (especially the UGR Tempo list that plays 8 fetchs, 6 non-basics). Even if we were to include the dragon the chances of it hitting the "Battlefield" are ridiculously slim.

keys
07-13-2009, 12:56 PM
Wait... how does Vial Gobs protect a Planar Void? Also, Relic doesn't slow down Goyf that much.

Genericcactus
07-13-2009, 01:18 PM
Wait... how does Vial Gobs protect a Planar Void? Also, Relic doesn't slow down Goyf that much.

Goyf can fight through a Relic (you can also stifle the Crypt effect), but Mongoose can't at all. As such, CT, a deck that already runs the bare minimum amount of threats, can just lose when you don't find that Goyf. You can win through Relic, but it's incredibly tough.

I've found the Merfolk is pretty unfavorable pre-board. Once you bring in red-blasts, pyroclasm, and EE, though, it swings in our favor. If you can win Game 1, you should win the match.

BackDr0p
07-13-2009, 01:19 PM
Wait... how does Vial Gobs protect a Planar Void? Also, Relic doesn't slow down Goyf that much.



Drop it T1 VS Tempo Thresh, Mongoose and Goyf will be quite insignificant. There is a huge difference between a 4 turn clock and a 7 turn clock, I hope I don't need to give you an explanation.

As for planar void, I was just giving another example of potential graveyard hate, which is devastating for this deck if dropped early enough. Our game plan has to be partly modified in order to deal w/ these hosers. You definitely have a problem when your Goyf is being towered over by Cursecatcher.

betterthenandrew
07-13-2009, 01:30 PM
That is what I've realized w/ this deck. We've come to rely completely on our graveyards. As a result I find that this deck has a hard time recovering from a protected turn 1 or turn 2 relic or planar void (which is seeing play in RB Vial Goblins). This is something that a relatively common MU such as Merfolk, is known for.

While I have found a turn 1 Relic to be obnoxious it has never really been more than that. Goyf grows faster than the relic can really handle, just try to save an Instant and a fetch land for when they pop it, or even better stifle it.

Planar void on the other hand would be more of a problem, but fortunately I haven't come across one yet.

On a somewhat related note I have been considering Null Rod in the board. Everyone in my meta boards in Relics to fight my goyfs (seriously, every one. Even opponents that run Goyfs of their own like to board them in, I do not understand why). Also practically every one in my meta is running either SDT, Aether Vial and/or moxes. Seriously, everyone that's not me that is. Any thoughts?

BackDr0p
07-13-2009, 01:47 PM
While I have found a turn 1 Relic to be obnoxious it has never really been more than that. Goyf grows faster than the relic can really handle, just try to save an Instant and a fetch land for when they pop it, or even better stifle it.

If relic is dropped early enough they won't have to "pop it".


... I have been considering Null Rod in the board. Everyone in my meta boards in Relics to fight my goyfs. Also practically every one in my meta is running either SDT, Aether Vial and/or moxes. Seriously, everyone that's not me that is. Any thoughts?

Null Rod seems to be a good SB option. If it works for Vintage, why not Legacy? But I have to say that although the rod nullifies (pun intended) the most troublesome artefacts in the format, it lacks the versatility of Pithing Needle which is able to hit: Survival of the Fittest, Elspeth and Man Lands in particular. Other than that, it is worth testing in my opinion.

Adan
07-13-2009, 01:54 PM
Null Rod seems to be a good SB option. If it works for Vintage, why not Legacy?

Because Legacy doesn't have Mox, Mox, Mox, Mox, Mox, Lotus, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Metalworker, Vault-Key, Triskelion, Karn, Ravager in every second deck you face.
You have to notice that Null Rod's role in Vintage is to cut down the opponents resources, while it just doesn't do anything useful in Legacy. In every case, Pithing Needle is superior to Null Rod.


But I have to say that although the rod nullifies (pun intended) the most troublesome artefacts in the format, it lacks the versatility of Pithing Needle which is able to hit: Survival of the Fittest, Elspeth and Man Lands in particular. Other than that, it is worth testing in my opinion.

Well, every single target you mentioned are - along with many more - each one more reason to play Needle over Null Rod. Plus, Pithing Needle is less clunky.

The only deck that gets assraped by Null Rod is Affinity (because it's the only deck which gets it's resources shut down by Null Rod obv.). And Affinity is not competitive anyway and I believe the M10 rulings brought the coup de grace to it. I won't say that Affinity isn't played, no, I also got lucked away by it 1 or 2 times, but this single deck shouldn't be a reason to play a card that is quite narrow in Legacy.

I just see that Null Rod might have a justification in the non-LED Dredges because it shuts down the 2 problem-artifacts at once (Relic and Crypt), ensuring that you don't get pwned by Murphy's Law (seriously, use Needle naming Relic and you will lose to Crypt, name Crypt and you will lose to Relic. I'm one of these unlucky guys).

BackDr0p
07-13-2009, 02:02 PM
Because Legacy doesn't have Mox, Mox, Mox, Mox, Mox, Lotus, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Metalworker, Vault-Key, Triskelion, Karn, Ravager in every second deck you face.

True. Although, our format is less reliant on artefacts there is no real need to completely discard Null Rod as a SB option, even though it is suboptimal in UGR Tempo.

jimirynk
07-13-2009, 02:12 PM
In every case, Pithing Needle is superior to Null Rod.

Are you high?
They both shine in their own matchups.
Vs. countertop it shuts off their top/and e.e. which are their best cards vs. you in their deck. It also shuts off shackles which if resolves makes you only able to win with mongoose.

betterthenandrew
07-13-2009, 02:54 PM
In every case, Pithing Needle is superior to Null Rod.

That is simply not true. Not at all. there are situations where both shine. Vs a CB opponent with SDT, Vedalken Shackles, and EE the Rod is going to be better. Vs Merfolk with Aether Vial and Relic of Progenitus same thing. While Pithing Needle is more flexible, it also only answers one problem at a time.

In a meta (like mine) that is full of CB and tribal decks, with a few Mox Diamond decks filling out the margins I think Rod can play a role, especially because I have not seen a single planeswalker or Survival yet. I have been running a Needle in my board and never named a non artifact card with it.

Adan
07-13-2009, 03:29 PM
Oh my Goodness, like if Needle could not shut down SDT and Shackles and like you could not just stifle a EE...

And as if EE and Mox Diamonds are the most annoying cards of Aggroloam you want to shut down and not Seismic Assault and Wasteland...
And Academy Ruins which actually make EE a pesky card and Pernicious Deed...

Name some definite matchups! Each matchup you named have only 2 cards to shut down. Needle are enough for that purpose and are even more flexible in the whole random field of Legacy as it can shut down a variety of other annoying non-artifact cards you don't want to have against you: Survival, Elspeth, Decree, Mishra's Factory, Nantuko Monastery, Pernicious Deed, Wastelands, Imperious Perfect, Gempalm Incinerator, Academy Ruins, Volrath's Stronghold, Knight of the Reliquary...

Plus, I would never board in Null Rod against Counterbalance Threshold for example, or Null Rod against Merfolk.

Against some cards, Needles are just some additional outs. But I absolutely see no justification to run Null Rod. The only matchup where it shines is Affinity and maybe some ANT variants/Belcher against which we already have a very good matchup thanks to the huge amount of countermagic and disruption. BEBs or Disrupts are also good.

Whatever, I'm out, I'll tune in later when all these brainfarts have dissolved.

jimirynk
07-13-2009, 04:09 PM
I'm not saying play null rod, but it is definite a relevant sb option for this deck.

example g2 vs brass man.
bad match up.

They have 2 crypt, 1 relic, 1 e.e.,4 top,2 shackle.
Thats 10 cards that you stop with 1 card.
The best part about rod is Counter top sides out there artifact hate.

I can agree that needle can answer non artifacts and null rod so if wanted it can be a 2/2 split.

Their is no correct sideboard for this deck, it is all meta/personal preference.
Do it or don't do it, but don't sit their shit on people explaining the pro's of a viable sb option.

The source is about improving the legacy format/decks, brainstorming and followed by testing is the proper way to do this, not just saying an idea is stupid.

sauce
07-13-2009, 06:52 PM
I agree that null rod is awfully narrow. Pithing needle is way stronger.
Unless your entire metagame is affinity, then you play Null rod... 4 of.. main.

jimirynk
07-13-2009, 07:22 PM
I don't run them at the moment but like merolk runs 4via/4relic that all need to be dealt with that can be stopped by one card.
Plus they are not going to side in hate vs it game 2.

keys
07-13-2009, 08:38 PM
I agree that null rod is awfully narrow. Pithing needle is way stronger.
Unless your entire metagame is affinity, then you play Null rod... 4 of.. main.

That's not really true. I'd say they're on the same power level at least. Null Rod is generally better against combo and CounterTop.

Carabas
07-13-2009, 10:21 PM
I play zoo, and a boarding strategy that has worked very well against tempo thresh was to take out my tarmogoyfs, and bring in 4 relics. It slows my clock down a turn, maybe, but with 4 relics 3 lavamancers, I can almost always make goyfs tiny and keep you off threshold.

I usually don't pop a relic until I've drawn another one or I've gotten the opponent down to lightning bolt range, and the cantrip will help end the game.

rancOr_
07-14-2009, 05:06 AM
I agree that Null Rod is worth testing.
Maybe 60% of the games I lost so far were due to Relic, and Null Rod also helps in the combo/CB-top/control MU if needed.
Ive played P.needle for some while and mostly used it on artifacts anyway,mainly Relic-EE-shackles.

tivadar
07-14-2009, 08:39 AM
I don't run them at the moment but like merolk runs 4via/4relic that all need to be dealt with that can be stopped by one card.
Plus they are not going to side in hate vs it game 2.

Null Rod's probably going to be worse against Merfolk, as they have moved towards running spell snare, and pithing needle at least dodges that. Null Rod is an extra mana, which both puts it at 2 and makes it a more likely daze target. Could work, and does shut down more. But makes their hate more relevant against you.

And PS, the most relics I've ever seen in a Merfolk deck is 3. Sometimes only in the board, which means you're playing a guessing game game 2 with Null Rod.

Sage
07-14-2009, 01:12 PM
Does anyone know the approximate odds of beating the following decks with Temp Thresh;?

Enchantress
Pox-mono B
Stax-w

I have a tournament coming up this weekend and it's full of rogue decks like these and I think Tempo Thresh would have a good match-up with these decks with a very customized SB.

I know that Tempo Thresh is a deck you have to play flawlessly to make it profitable, but are there any versions that have been successful with a couple more creatures without sacrificing consistancy? Thanks for any help,

Sage

beastman
07-14-2009, 01:16 PM
The three decks there are almost auto losses for canadian thresh. The fact is, too much of your disruption is dead. I don't think there is a deck in existence that is a worse match up than mono black pox.

Omega
07-14-2009, 02:10 PM
You named Pox and Enchantress : You might want to play Trygon Predator Maindeck

You named Pox : You might want to burn them out :)

good luck

Robert

sauce
07-14-2009, 02:13 PM
people who play suiblack/pox type decks in legacy are the same kinds of people that play burn in type2...
the decks are good enough to crush good decks, but in the end they never win.

it really makes me question the purpose of their existence, both people and the decks :)

DragoFireheart
07-14-2009, 02:16 PM
people who play suiblack/pox type decks in legacy are the same kinds of people that play burn in type2...
the decks are good enough to crush good decks, but in the end they never win.

it really makes me question the purpose of their existence, both people and the decks :)


To be a pain in the ass?

jimirynk
07-14-2009, 02:58 PM
And PS, the most relics I've ever seen in a Merfolk deck is 3. Sometimes only in the board, which means you're playing a guessing game game 2 with Null Rod.

Most merfolk run 4 relics split between the MD and board, and null rod is never a dead card to play vers. folk. If you side in needle and name relic then your playing a guessing game.

Genericcactus
07-15-2009, 01:25 PM
Does anyone know the approximate odds of beating the following decks with Temp Thresh;?

Enchantress


I've tested against Enchantress extensively (my teammate plays it) and its a pretty strong match up pre-board. Spell Snare, Daze, and Ice are all great. Post-board they bring in like a bazillion bombs (Choke, City of Solitude, additional Replenish's, or even Blood Moon), but you can bring in EE, which they probably won't expect and as such will side out Karmic Justice. In this matchup, you can't keep a hand with heavy beats or no beats, ideally you need to land a goyf, counter enchantresses, and hope they don't draw replenish, or moat.

Adan
07-15-2009, 04:41 PM
You named Pox and Enchantress : You might want to play Trygon Predator Maindeck

You named Pox : You might want to burn them out :)

good luck

Robert

Well, exactly, these 3 are matchups which you have to tempogame a lot which makes them difficult.

Stax: Pretty much a cakewalk if you have Trygons in your 75 and can actually resolve one. Butin any case, the important thing is to resolve a creature and keep Ghostly Prisons or Angels off the table. Against Magus you can still ram your creatures into it and burn it.
They usually can't do much against resolved creatures except for Magus-Armageddon. But I guess the build is a bit out-dated, I don't know how it is to play against the Dutch Stax variants with Humility, Moat and Elsbitch.
I could imagine that one to be a very very frustating matchup.

Pox: Shouldn't be too hard, they don't doo much against Nimble Mongoose especially when they have a white splash for StoPs and Vindicates.
You can tempogame very well:

Stifles hit Wasteland, Spell Snare hits like everything, Sinkhole, Smallpox and Edicts maybe, Daze can theoretically hit everything as well, but they will always hardcounter SInkholes...

You can do a bunch of 1 for 1 trades which generate a huge speedadvantage. Burn for reach is also nice as you can still topdeck-win if he should dispose your creatures somehow. Tombstalkers or other creatures he might play can be Iced or bounced.

Enchantress:

That's a tough matchup, a bad timed Replenish is gg, overall it has got a very high threat density and their resources are very hard to attack.
I really wouldn't be happy to face Enchantress. But as long as they don't play Runed Halo on your Burnspells or resolve a Confinement, try to cantrip into as much Burnspells as you can.

TheBez
07-16-2009, 04:10 PM
What do you guys think about Mold Adder? Good as a SB option or just not right for this deck?

Blitzbold
07-16-2009, 04:30 PM
As it has been discussed several times before, this deck doesn't need any more creatures of the 'dumb beater'-class. Mold Adder can become big for sure, but this is not what's needed if you add more creatures, especially not from the board.

Ludwitch
07-20-2009, 12:33 PM
Hi folks,

yesterday I played TempoThresh for the first time in a tournament. The list was pretty standard without the Wipe Away and Rushing River but with 2 Trygon Predator.
Now I have a question concerning sideboarding: I find it pretty obvious what to board in (Krosan Grip vs Counterbalance, Red Elemental Blast vs blue, Submerge vs Goyfs, Pyroclasm vs Wurm Harvest, Relic of Progenitus vs Loam), but what should I board out? Almost every time, I found myself removing the Bolts and Fire/Ice. Especially against Counter/Top with Goyfs you can use Krosan Grip, Red Blast and Submerge, while you do not want to board out the Predators, Spall Snare or Stifle. What is your boarding plan?

Nessaja
07-23-2009, 05:26 PM
I figured I'd post here I played against a version of Tempo Thresh mixed with Landstill on MWS. It was really weird but it seemed to work alright

Cards I saw:
Grim Lavamancer
Tarmogoyf
Standstill
FoW
Mishra's Factory
Fire//Ice
Lightning Bolt
Daze
Brainstorm

Deck confused the hell out of me, never saw it before, is this a known variant on canadian threshold?

whienot
07-23-2009, 05:37 PM
Seems similar to this (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27958).

Eli Kassis - SCG Legacy 5k$ Boston Top 8

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Fire / Ice
4 Force of Will
1 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Snare

3 Burning Wish

3 Standstill

3 Engineered Explosives

3 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
2 Island
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Mountain
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

Nessaja
07-23-2009, 06:11 PM
It was slightly more burn oriented then that but that must probably have been it. Thank you. I found it a very interesting list to play against though mostly because I couldn't figure out what he was playing and how I should play against it (avoiding stifles that never came, then avoiding mass removal thinking I'm playing against landstill).

Al-ucard
07-24-2009, 07:04 AM
Hi guys, I have an upcoming event and in my meta there are merfolks, ant, mirror, zoo and some rock decks. How about this side?

3 Red elemental blast
4 Submerge
3 Pithing needle
2 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Explosives

Thanks

miko
07-24-2009, 02:04 PM
It might have been this one:

1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
3 [U] Tropical Island
4 [B] Volcanic Island
3 [REW] Wasteland
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [10E] Faerie Conclave
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [UNH] Island
1 [ON] Riptide Laboratory

// Creatures
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
3 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [TO] Grim Lavamancer

// Spells
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
3 [NE] Daze
3 [AP] Fire/Ice
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [4E] Lightning Bolt
3 [SC] Stifle
4 [OD] Standstill

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 1 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

dtrooper
07-25-2009, 09:49 AM
It might have been this one:

1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
3 [U] Tropical Island
4 [B] Volcanic Island
3 [REW] Wasteland
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [10E] Faerie Conclave
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [UNH] Island
1 [ON] Riptide Laboratory

// Creatures
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
3 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [TO] Grim Lavamancer

// Spells
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
3 [NE] Daze
3 [AP] Fire/Ice
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [4E] Lightning Bolt
3 [SC] Stifle
4 [OD] Standstill

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 1 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus


Interesting list. How are its matchups compared to Tempo Thresh's?

miko
07-25-2009, 10:41 AM
you usually have a better aggro-matchup than tempothresh. furthermore your matchup against control is extremely good (you can play your threads at end of turn). against landstill you have factories, wasteland, stifle and creatures that you can play eot.
i used to pilot tempothresh at a time discussion about that deck was at its beginning. but i started to like being more controlish. what you can achieve with that deck pretty well.
actually i do not have any ideas about the matchups of that deck. i only tested against landstill and some threshold builds.

toni_a_salmi
07-25-2009, 02:14 PM
Hi folks, Im quite new person in this forum but I've been watching this
thread for a long time cause I play TT too. I had a legacy tournament
in a local cardshop today. This was my list and I was rank 2 of 17 participants. I played agains to decks like MUC, cbtop, cascade combo,
aggro loam, UBr control, Thresh)

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Nimble Mongoose

2x Force Spike
3x Spell Snare
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Fire/Ice
4x Stifle
2x Rushing River

4x Ponder

3x Wooded Foothills
3x Polluted Delta
4x Wasteland
4x Tropical Island
4x Volcanic Island

sideboard

2x Krosan Grip
2x Trygon Predator
3x Submerge
3x Red Elemental Blast
2x Pyroclasm
2x Pithing Needle
1x Engineered Explosives


As you can see there is 2 spikes and 2 bounces. I cut spell snare and
fire/ice replace them with 2 spikesand used "2 open slot" for rivers.
Today the key cards were tarmogoyf and goose ofcourse and believe
or not.. spikes and rivers. Spikes hitted nicely to chalices, cantrips in
mirror match and made nice pressure like daze put if you have 6
you can imagine what opponet would think...and rivers...well you
have lot of countering spells (daze, fow, snare etc) if something
drops river is needed. You really can counter everything even you
are playing mana denial and cheap counters. Sometimes you have to
tapout or your snare doestn hit (god I hate that). I think I won 4-6
matches of 12 with river. You and your opponent are "tarmolocked"
you play river and run opponet to death.

I was quite satisfied to this list today but I really wanna fit few counterspells
to this deck cause after 3 rounds its hard to control match with
dazes, snares and few spikes. Sure you have FoW but it doesnt mean
youll have it even theres 4 in deck. I think 4 daze and couple of
snare/spike combination with fow should be enough for first 1-3 rounds
but in midgame you really need some hard counters or something.
Any thoughts? And hopefully youll keep writing and more about
sideboarding strategies cause I think it is more important than few
empty slots in this deck.

ps. and sorry about my english, hopefully you did understand :cool:

dtrooper
07-25-2009, 08:28 PM
After all this Standstill talk and two Thresh-Still lists suggested, I got inspired. I saw the regular Saturday Magic-League Legacy Trial starting and in five minutes I modified my old Tempo Thresh list to accommodate Standstill. The result? 1st place, out of 32.

Here's the list:

// Lands
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [B] Volcanic Island
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [NE] Daze
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [SC] Stifle
4 [B] Lightning Bolt
3 [AP] Fire/Ice
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [LRW] Ponder
3 [OD] Standstill

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [NE] Submerge
SB: 3 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [OV] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [DIS] Trygon Predator


It was a single elimination tourney. Played Aggro-Loam, some weird Storm Kobolds list (he says he combos off turn two or three, and he was in round two with no byes...), White Weenie, (bye), Merfolk. Lost just one game, the first one against Merfolk, in the finals.

Not the best data you could get from a tournament due to double-game mana screw for my Aggro-Loam opponent and the doubtful Kobolds deck, but still an idea I'd like to put out there so you guys can look into it.

Cheers!

johanessen
07-26-2009, 02:14 PM
I did some playtest this afternoon with this thresh-still variant

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [B] Volcanic Island
3 [B] Tropical Island
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)

// Creatures
4 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [FNM] Fire/Ice
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [OD] Standstill

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [NE] Submerge
SB: 2 [MI] Mind Harness

Won 9 of 10 matches against RBg aggroloam, and 4 of 5 games against ANT. I really like this deck is non graveyard dependant.

FoulQ
07-26-2009, 03:36 PM
I have a simple question that I couldn't find an answer to. Does it matter if I run 8 fetch/6 dual instead of 6 fetch/8 dual? Yes, it is a money thing, as I have fetches right now but not duals. Just wondering if it makes a huge difference.

dtrooper
07-26-2009, 03:54 PM
I have a simple question that I couldn't find an answer to. Does it matter if I run 8 fetch/6 dual instead of 6 fetch/8 dual? Yes, it is a money thing, as I have fetches right now but not duals. Just wondering if it makes a huge difference.

You lose a bit more life, yet you fill your graveyard more quickly and thin your deck out. It's up to your preference.

johanessen
07-26-2009, 04:43 PM
And fixes the colour better on first turns

MULocke
07-26-2009, 05:22 PM
You have to be really careful when running more fetches than targets. There are times in an attrition war where you will have a fetch but not the dual left in the deck that you need. Fetches are nice with lavamancer, but i would try to fit in at least one more land that makes mana.

Seb
07-26-2009, 05:33 PM
Also, fetches can be stifled, which can be problematic if you're not going first. Going second with a dual and stifle backup (against wasteland) is usually LD proof. Considering this deck plays 18 lands, and that we usually keep one landers with ponder or brainstorm, getting our first (and often only) fetch stifled can be a disaster, whereas with a dual, you can stifle/brainstorm in response to waste.

P.S. Several pages ago, Isochron Scepter was suggested. I tried to put 1 Isochron and 1 Echoing Truth (so it can be imprinted on the scepter) instead of Rushing River and Wipe Away, and so far, it's been amazing, even if Isochron Scepter seems so counter-intuitive for this deck. The rest of the list being Caplan's list.

DragoFireheart
07-26-2009, 07:41 PM
Is classical Threshold still viable?

(Goose, Goyf + big threshold creature like Fledgling Dragon or Mystic Enforcer, no land destruction).

rsaunder
07-26-2009, 08:33 PM
Is classical Threshold still viable?

(Goose, Goyf + big threshold creature like Fledgling Dragon or Mystic Enforcer, no land destruction).Of course. It's all Counter-Top based now, though. Check the Counter-Top thread, also in the DTB forum.

I like the 8 dual/6 fetch combo: The deck plays so few real mana producing lands that having the full compliment is sometimes a necessity if the game goes long or if you're playing against another deck packing stifles.

Blitzbold
07-27-2009, 01:31 AM
I played the Deck by Eli Kassis from the SCG 5k$ tourney in a local tournament 3 weeks ago just to see how it plays. The list Johanessen shows us a few posts above is very similar to Eli's list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=29174).

There are several things I really liked about it:
-> threads
-> countersuite
-> mana base

Other things weren't that great, especially the Burning Wishes and the sideboard, but let's focus on the positive things as we can learn from it.

threads
-> Goyf obv. is the beater of choice.
-> Lavamancer was great all day long, defeating Merfolk nearly all on his own, breaking Goyf stallments and so on. Additionally, the classic "Turn 1: Mancer, Turn 2: Land (Mishra? ;)) + Standstill" - play is still very strong. However, I don't know if the full 4 is right.
-> Vendilion Clique I fell in love with when I tried her as an additional flying, disruptive beater in UGw CounterTop, and I still like her very much. Knowing their hand is the best part of her CIP-trigger, possibly taking their best spell is a nice bonus in my view. 3/1 flying is nothing to be scoffed at, especially when supplemented by Mancer or burn.

counter
Eli's deck tops at cc3, so playing the full 4 Daze wasn't a problem at all. I like any combination of 4 FoW + 7-8 Daze / Spell Snare, though. The ability to bring in both red blasts or blue blasts from the board to supplement the countersuite is one of the reasons I like UGR the most at the moment.


mana base

-- Sidenote: I know all the arguments against basics in Tempo Thresh, but as the discussion now also includes other builds with merely a tempoish approach than beeing fully dedicated to the tempo plan, this twist IMHO also fits in this discussion. --

Eli's mana base consisted of

2 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest

Very stable. Being able to fetch basics of all my colors and therefore dodging recurring Wastelands from Aggro Loam was great. Fetching Basics early respectivley playing them against Merfolk: priceless. The only thing I don't know if it's correct is the sheer amount of colored mana sources the deck contains. I think that one can be trimmed down a bit.

johanessen
07-27-2009, 07:00 AM
While i was testing vs. aggroloam i used the manabase of 8 fetch 6 dual, only lost one game to not having colored mana producer. is the only game i lost out of 10 matches. Vendilion is huge sending LftL to bottom, stifle stops his wasteland and making some pressure he could affort to destroy my lands cos he need colored mana to play bombs. bombs were tapped, stifled or after side board submerged and controlled , we have the tempo here. Anyway, I finally decided to go back to 8 duals and 6 fetches since is quite more controlish than caplan's tempo thresh.
Another change i was thinking talking from my experience is to add a trygon instead of vendilion. Vendilion is legendary and some times had one in hand and couldn't play it. BUT, Vendilion was mvp during all testing, against ANT and AggroLoam , i wanted everytime one in hand, I'm not sure about this change.
Also, I noticed in some matches the need of Ponder for the +1/+1 to goyd, but i felt engineered explosives were to good to replace and I didn't find anything else. EE are to deal with permanents that tempothresh uses bouncers, helps against tribals, affinitys if we dont have lavamancer online and i found it very good since it comes against counterbalance , is the solucion to it.
About Mandlands and wastelands, i found playing 4 stifles and 4 wastelands is very important, more than playing basic lands. Magus of the Moon? Okay, play grim and burn it. Or kill with Fire. Decks with crucible? We have counters, vendilion and EE@3. Same with B2b, while having Pyro on side. I think we are ones that have to make pressure, others will have to survive. if they take the iniciative we are lost.

GreenOne
07-29-2009, 12:34 PM
Is anybody playing Consign to Dream in the 2x bounce slots? I tested it a bit and, god, is this sexy.

sauce
07-29-2009, 12:55 PM
Is anybody playing Consign to Dream in the 2x bounce slots? I tested it a bit and, god, is this sexy.

how is consign better than wipeaway/rushing river?

GreenOne
07-29-2009, 02:54 PM
how is consign better than wipeaway/rushing river?
Well, with a good number of permanents being Green or Red* bouncing in resp to fetching (or survival activation) results in something really similar to an instant-speed vindicate.

If the fetch trick doesn't apply, it's still card parity AND tempo gain, instead of the same result with some added card disadvantage.
Oh, and it also can bounce lands.



*Everything or almost everything in: Goblins, Survival, Bant, AggroLoam, Zoo. And Goyf, Pernicious Deed...

Cenarius
07-30-2009, 06:15 AM
It's nice to see that atleast someone tried Force Spike at a tournament aswell and that actually came to the same conclusion as we did: Force Spike is a hugh bomb for this deck, however it's dangerous to simply cut a Fire/Ice for it.
Thanks for some support/testing. You'll probably play with Force Spike's from now on, won't you?

@Adan, Did you had any time to test Force Spike's already? If you did: Can you give some thoughts about it?

I've also seen many players that do not know how to play this deck correctly, (F.E) they don't really know the definition of Tempo. I've seen people playing Tarmogoyf at turn two or a Nimble Mongoose/Ponder on their first turn, while having an hand with spellsnare (on the draw) and/or stifle. Tapping out means that you cannot bluf with Stifle, Spell Snare( and Force Spike) which makes your deck infact weaker (or atleast that is what I think it does to your deck). Bluffing is probably the most important thing when playing this deck. Be confidant. By letting your opponents not fetch for 2-3 turns, because he is scared of your stifle, may let you win the game just by the way you play the deck. I'm not sure how other people tend to play with this deck, but I believe that playing with such a weird type of deck(I mean it has Agro/Agro-Control and Combo elements in it) such as Tempo Threshold, since every card has it's meaning and purpose, should be played with a different playstyle than any other deck.

I'm not completely sure whether some things are strictly better than others, however the situation and my feeling tend to determine my playstyle. For example: Dazing a Brainstorm (from my opponent) with only a fetch on his side (and with no stifle in your hand), may seem a bit ridiculous, however the advantage of brainstorm is lost by doing this. He may still get 3 awesome cards, but probably you would have lost anyway if you had not dazed that brainstorm. There are ofcourse more example's.

About Consign to Dream. Well personally I still think that bounce is pretty bad so I think other people should test this. It seems ok, with many red and green targets. Nevertheless it does not have the property of a 100% bounce spell and a 2-for-1 bounce. I'm not sure if it deserves a place in this deck, maybe it does.

Hopefully this reply can bring this thread to live again, since posting Semi-Landstill decks will not make Tempo Threshold a better deck.

Shriekmaw
07-30-2009, 04:02 PM
how is consign better than wipeaway/rushing river?


I've changed the bounce spells a bit. I'm now playing 1 wipe away and 1 cryptic command in the deck. I know cryptic command is a 4 mana spell, so I've also cut a spell snare for another land which is a basic island. In testing its been working pretty well. I will report back when I have some actual tournament results with the change.

I also cut the 4 fire/ice before for 4 counterspells which has been very good to me also, but its strickly a metagame call. I've top 8 with both lists, so it just goes to show you what kind of decks you expect to play against. I can see replacing fire/ice with force spike, but I feel its more risky since force spike is not a hard counter mid-late game. Just my thoughts.

Cenarius
07-31-2009, 06:24 AM
I'm not sure whether cutting Fire/Ice for Force Spike would be that good, since Fire/Ice helps a lot against 50% matchups and weak matchups.
Cryptic Command, although he looks nice, just seems impossible to me. 4 mana is just too much I believe.
About the + 1 Island, -1 Spell Snare. It looks risky and it is unneccesary, I think. We now have 5 lands that can be a disaster in your openingshand. Maybe the Island does look nice, but you now need 3 lands to get all the different mana colours you need.
Dragon Stompy and/or other Magus of the Moon/Blood Moon decks can not be used as an argument since TT has a sufficient amount of percentage to win already without the basic, although it is only decided with the die-role, who wins (probably).

toni_a_salmi
07-31-2009, 07:23 AM
I'm not sure whether cutting Fire/Ice for Force Spike would be that good, since Fire/Ice helps a lot against 50% matchups and weak matchups.
Cryptic Command, although he looks nice, just seems impossible to me. 4 mana is just too much I believe.
About the + 1 Island, -1 Spell Snare. It looks risky and it is unneccesary, I think. We now have 5 lands that can be a disaster in your openingshand. Maybe the Island does look nice, but you now need 3 lands to get all the different mana colours you need.
Dragon Stompy and/or other Magus of the Moon/Blood Moon decks can not be used as an argument since TT has a sufficient amount of percentage to win already without the basic, although it is only decided with the die-role, who wins (probably).


Fire/Ice is good card against the tribal decks and sometimes It is nice
tempo if you tap land or maybe some creature and beat with your own
but there is still 3 of those even you cut one and you have 4 bolts.
I think Cryptic Command is bad choice. Getting 4 mana is quite hard
and if you play against some control you really need mana for counter war
and I think this deck doesnt need "finisher card" and commands mana cost
is too high for this deck I think.
Spike is nice card cause it works almost in same situations than snare
but spike hits cc1 and even higher caster cards if opponent is tapped out.
Spike makes your dazes more dangerous cause no one really expects
2 dazes and cause youre playing TT opponent knows youre playing snares
so he easily would play threads and left 1 mana open...and boom...you
play spike and daze. I know it is bad tempo but if you have snare and
daze in yur hand in this situation and opponent plays cc3 spell lefting 1
mana open, you really can do nothing cause your snare dies cause of 3cc
and dazze dies cause there is 1 mana open for your daze.
When I played TT in that tournament where I went rank2 I used
spikes several times in opponents turn 1 countering top or duress/seize
and using spike + daze for bad threads. Few times I played spike and
force opponent go tap out so I can play my threads in my turn againts
MUC and countertop. In most of the cases I think Force Spike is nice card
in this deckand it has its own power.
..and what becomes adding basic island to deck..it is quite unnecessary
cause you have cards against magus and b2b. You have bolts in MD and
blast in Sb. You really dont wanna have only one island in your opening
hand. In the past tournament I had 2 or 3 times hand with onyl 1 land
but hand was so nice that I really couldnt mulligan and if you have
relevant hand but you have single island you cant play bolts, you cant play
mongoose. Basic land in this deck doesnt sound good in my opinion.

What I have thought about is adding more hard counters like counterspell
or something like that but I am not sure about this. It might be working
in some situations but I dunno...what do you think about adding hard
counters?? :rolleyes:

GGoober
08-04-2009, 02:41 AM
I've been playing some Tempo Thresh for practice and love the deck, but I found the new addition of Standstill to be a perfect card for the deck.

As a Landstill player, I've seen the strengths in 6 StP/Path builds MD in order to ensure Turn 2 Standstills by removing the turn 1 Threat. The basic idea is on the back of tempo. Such a play is to generate board position/advantage and hence tempo in the game. Which other deck can accomplish this the best? UGr Tempo Thresh. You can pretty much play the style of Turn 1 Lightning Bolt/Daze and land Standstill consistently. Not to mention, with Grim Lavamancer, your opponent is forced to crack the Standstill.

Here are my beliefs on why Grim Lavamancer may replace Nimble Mongoose.

1. One weakness of Nimble Mongoose is the susceptibility to GY hate. Nimble Mongoose and Goyf hated out spells bad news for this deck. Mongoose requires 7 cards, and unlike Goyf, cannot be big fast after a Crypt/Relic, while Grim Lavamancer only requires 2 cards in the yard to turn into damage.

2. Grim Lavamancer gives reach. Sure it dies to StP, but you've redirected that StP away from your Goyf. Lavamancer has single-handedly beat Goyfs when I played against Zoo. Lavamancer can sometimes burn out a 4/5 Goyf all by himself. Late-game, it doesn't matter if Nimble Mongoose gets 20 cards in the yard or 7 in the yard, but every extra card feeds into Lavamancer damage. A Nimble Mongoose will not be able to swing past Goyfs/Tombstalkers but Lavamancer can slowly burn his way in, together with Lightning Bolts and Fire//Ice.

3. Grim Lavamancer functions amazing under Standstill, and the new Standstill version runs additional threats in Mishra's Factories, not to mention that the style of Tempo Thresh allows for fast and reliable Standstills to be placed, further boosting tempo and card advantage.


The heavier red focus on Lavamancer has also made me fetch my duals with greater ease. Previous builds, you had to account for more green cards such as Mongoose + Goyfs. The newer builds are more red-heavy, so you just need a green source out to play well.

Here's my list for reference:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory


4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Standstill

4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique (meta dependent, can by Trygon)

SB:
2 Trygon/Clique
2 Mind Harness
2 Submerge
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Red Elemental Blast


One thing that I noted that Standstill is anti-synergistic with the tempo plan. Unlike Landstill, this deck should not drop Standstill without a threat/Factory on board since you don't want your opponent to build up his manabase/hand. You want to force them in a situation where they have to keep up. So pitching Standstills to FOW with no threats in hand is not a bad plan for this deck, where it would have been a bad plan in Landstill. I would drop Standstill if I have Factory/Lavamancer/Goyf in play, otherwise, I would prefer not to play Standstill unless I'm confident with my mid-late game hand anyway (e.g. plenty of Goyfs/countermagic/burn).

Bahamuth
08-04-2009, 05:11 AM
What the hell, Standstill? Seriously people, Standstill does certainly not belong in this deck. You do not want to run colourless land in such a tight mana base as this deck is supposed to have. Wasteland already forces you to mulligan quite often. Also, as you said, Standstill is completely anti-synergetic with the rest of the entire deck.

miko
08-04-2009, 07:53 AM
3 factories, 4 lavamancers, 4 wastelands
what about that is anti-synergetic with standstill?

Elf_Ascetic
08-04-2009, 09:16 AM
3 factories, 4 lavamancers, 4 wastelands
what about that is anti-synergetic with standstill?

4 Daze, 4 Stifle, 2 Force Spike, 4 Fire/Ice, 4 Mongoose and yes, even the Wastelands are anti-synergetic. The same is true for your manabase, sacrificing colored lands for Factories is not a thing you want to do.

This deck thrives on manadenial. Standstill is a free pass for everyone who wants to drop all their land. Resolving a standstill means: Thowing away Daze and Force spike, sitting with a useless stifle, getting less effective Mongeese and Fire/Ices. Wasteland can only hit manland and can no longer deny colors (they have plenty of time to find them).

Though standstill LOOKS good for this deck, but all other cards are becoming weaker by running it.

This deck doesn't want to slow down. Standstill is not Tempo, and does not belong in this deck.

miko
08-04-2009, 11:50 AM
4 Daze, 4 Stifle, 2 Force Spike, 4 Fire/Ice, 4 Mongoose and yes, even the Wastelands are anti-synergetic.
the deck posted above does not even play mongoose and force spike. wastelands are as far synergetic as they help you to kill oposing manlands.

but i have to admit that the list above is no real tempo thresh list. but it is neither a landstill build. it reminds me more of a traditional ur-fish seen in vintage 3-4 years ago. for reference: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=93

so i think this deck should be discussed in another thread. traditionally the deck did not play goyfs for the simple reason that there were non. ur-fish was traditionally called "gay fish". so why not open a thread for it here?

whienot
08-04-2009, 12:04 PM
The
so i think this deck should be discussed in another thread.

I agree.

The above list is very close to the FaeStill lists that seem to do well. For reference (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28350)

Granted, the above list doesn't play faeries, but the game plan is similar.

Cenarius
08-04-2009, 01:21 PM
Standstill is probably the card that is completely the opposite to the gameplan of Tempo Threshold. It's late game is pretty weak and therefore should focus on winning in early/midgame, this is because Tempo Thresholds' Early game is probably the strongest of all Legacy decks (although I'm not really sure if ANT/Tes doesn't have a better one) and with a midgame that is strong enough to manhandle most decks. With Standstill you indirectly stall the game, making it harder for your original gameplan: to disrupt their manabase, dropping a creature and putting it sideways for 4 to 6 times depending on what creature is on the board.
It therefore should also not play real hard counters like Counterspell since it is not the purpose of the deck to get to lategame. Counterspell really gets effective for Tempo Threshold at mid-late game probably. There are a lot of other arguments why Counterspell should not be included in Tempo Threshold, but I'll not mention them, if you don't mind, since they are pretty obvious.

And about the UR fishstill list: post it somewhere else. It does not belong here.

Adan
08-04-2009, 01:52 PM
As it can be seen here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=366757&postcount=135), I piloted a black Tempo Thresh variant to a 4-1 performance at Mannheim. My only loss was to UGW Balance-Thresh in Match 1 (similar to Clemens' build) because I somehow had the worst mana issues ever experienced.

And a terrible misplay (I played Edict on him, but missed to Stifle his topless Counterbalance. I'm a moron and deserved to lose, though).

But afterwards the deck didn't crapped out and I also played a bit more focused, so I could rescue myself to a 4-1.

But actually, my matchups were not really representative:

the UGW Balance-Thresh, a RGW Exalted Standard Deck, Affinity, BW Pox with Nether Void and UWb Landstill.

I decided to play Edicts because I always hated to lose against random Tombstalkers or other black creatures that might annoy you to hell otherwise (that day I had some issues with Helldozers and Braids, Cabal Minon by that Pox guy, I was very irritated, but Edicts just fixed that).

The Thoughtseizes in the SB are supposed to play the same role as the REBs from gooba's variant. But SBing then is quite difficult because you don't have the random stuff/burn to side out unlike the Red variant.

But Cenarius was actually not right with his statement: Dark Confidant is the nuts and he provides you mass of cards to keep your opponent down consistently. Remember: Tempo is generated by a huge amount of 1for1 trades. And Dark Confidant supports you by giving you a shitload of cards for that you can trade on and on.

Koby
08-04-2009, 02:06 PM
Would there be room for Phyrexian Dreadnought in the dark Tempo Thresh? You're already running the Stifles. Or does this belong in another deck altogether?

Adan
08-04-2009, 02:19 PM
Would there be room for Phyrexian Dreadnought in the dark Tempo Thresh? You're already running the Stifles. Or does this belong in another deck altogether?

Yeah, I got that hint from Oddball who was running them in his SB, but somehow no one owns Dreadnoughts in our region.
They are funny, they can be used to grow the Goyf by +2/+2, you can still steal a win against Blood Moons (against which you have to fetch the Island anyway), race Goblins, race Tombstalkers and Zoo Aggros which are high currently.

And thanks to CC1, they synergize very very well with Confidant. I'd play them if I'd own any since they sound like a hell of fun. Really. Unleashes the kiddy within you.

But no, I wouldn't play them in the Main for the sake of consistency.

Ch@os
08-04-2009, 02:42 PM
As it can be seen here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=366757&postcount=135), I piloted a black Tempo Thresh variant to a 4-1 performance at Mannheim. My only loss was to UGW Balance-Thresh in Match 1 (similar to Clemens' build) because I somehow had the worst mana issues ever experienced.


So is there no aggro in Mannheim?
The last german tourneys were really aggro infested, so i wonder how you pull off some wins with only some edicts.

Adan
08-04-2009, 03:27 PM
So is there no aggro in Mannheim?
The last german tourneys were really aggro infested, so i wonder how you pull off some wins with only some edicts.

I can always pull off wins with Threshold. That's why I play it. It has 50% against everything and a few bad matchups.

But you have a point, the problematic Aggros (i.E. Zoo Aggro) are not very popular in Mannheim. I guess the deck which was the closest to Zoo Aggro was that Exalted T2 Pile from Match 2.

But the surprising thing is that tribal aggro is actually not difficult, even with Edicts (especially with maindeck Explosives). You can comfortably overextend with Dark Confidant and have EEs as backup plan if he should really start to overwhelm you.

But let's see, maybe I'll play it again on Sunday at Hassloch for that I can say more about it.

toni_a_salmi
08-05-2009, 03:24 AM
Standstill is probably the card that is completely the opposite to the gameplan of Tempo Threshold

I agree. This deck wanna play fast not hit a standstill
to the table and wait until your opponent gets manabase, handfull of threads
and full hand of counters or some good cards anyway.


It therefore should also not play real hard counters like Counterspell since it is not the purpose of the deck to get to lategame. Counterspell really gets effective for Tempo Threshold at mid-late game probably. There are a lot of other arguments why Counterspell should not be included in Tempo Threshold, but I'll not mention them, if you don't mind, since they are pretty obvious.

You wont win this game in round 1-5 or even 5-10 and if you will it is very
rare. In a last tournament there was almost in every game a moment when
I really hope that my spell snare, daze or spike could be a counterspell
cause there are good decks and they will survive to round 10 or later so
hardcounters are needed. And why you wont mention them? :laugh:


Ok, serious. Give arguments why you want to fit in Counterspell. I'm curious
why you want to play Counterspell

Ok, there are a lot of situations when you really wanna have counterspell
in your hand and sure situations when you dont even wanna see it for
examble in opening hand but do you really wanna see 2 fire/ice in your
opening hand or 2 spell snare? There are other cards too than just
counterbalance, tarmogoyf, dark confidant and few merfoks that
makes your winning harder I mean all the bad cards doesnt cost 2cc
so what you gonna do at round 7 or 8 when your opponent has 4-6
lands and you have handful of dazes, spikes and spell snares (hopefully you
dont have these all) I know that you have FoWs for hard cards and
couple of bounce for saving you but I think someone should try and
test couple of counterspells. I played 2 in my maindeck but I really
wanted spikes to this deck and it is quite hard to get room for counterspells.
Everyone knows that this deck is very powerful in first 1 to 8 rounds
or something but when game goes to mid-game you really dont have cards
for that. We know that counterspell is hard to cast too but it is as hard
as fire/ice. I think counterspell coulb be one good "answer" for those
bad cards that you cant counter with daze, snare or spike, you cant
burn them and you dont have river for bounce them.
I dunno is there really room for counterspells but in my mind it looks
nice and powerful card sure it depends what is againts to you and
what is your playing style, what cards you have already in your hand
and is there sunny or cloudy. :laugh:

Muradin
08-05-2009, 11:01 AM
So what is the usual agreement about Tempo Threshold's matchup against Merfolk? Some say island walk, game over. Others say, burn all of their creatures and kill them with an abundance of Goyfs. In my own experience the matchup isn't as one sided as that. When Merfolk gets one of it's good starts with first turn Aether Vial with counter backup followed up with Standstill / Wasteland I feel that it's hard to win. Furthermore they got quite a lot of backbreaking cards for us, such as Relic of Progenitus, Back to Basics and Jitte can also be quite a big problem as it forces you to treat even Cursecatcher as a real threat in case they resolve one. If I get a burn heavy hand I often even let resolve Jitte despite having the opportunity to counter it because I feel that I can handle all of their creatures. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. What do you think about this?

And how do you feel about the Counterbalance + Top matchups, such as UGW Threshold, Probasco.dec and Nassif.dec?

I did some testing against those and felt that it was an uphill battle most of thetime. Against Nassif.dec I could only win by riding an early Nimble Mongoose to the win or if I could cut him of at least one color with my Wasteland / Stifle which proved to be quite difficult with them having access to Brainstorm / Top. So I began to counter the tops and the Brainstorms (those only if I could Daze them). But then I was lacking counters for their bombs like Counterbalance, Shackles. Do you think that boarding out Tarmogoyf might be the way to go against those decks? What would your boarding be like with the standard SB?

Against UGW Threshold I felt much more comfortable because they most of my opponents were struggling hard to get anything going and Pridemage sucks because he can neither trade with Goose nor Goyf and I always tried to be the agressor in this matchup. Especially builds running Noble Hierarch were quite easy.

The Probasco the deck however was the suck for me. I failed at winning a single match out of our first ten matches. After I had learned how to play the matchup properly it became better and I had to mulligan a lot in those 10 matches but I still feel really uncomfortable in this matchup as I simply fail at cutting them off their green sources about 90% of the time because this deck got a very good manabase.

Then I still got some general questions about gameplay.

Unknown opponent, you are on the play. You can play Ponder, Mongoose or keep mana open for stifle. What's your play?

I feel that the sideboard has too many cards I want to board in in several matchups while I lack anything to put into my maindeck but some of the 1-offs in other matchups. For example in the mirror match my boarding so far is:

+4 Submerge
+4 Pyroblast
+4 Disrupt
+1 Engineered Explosives

-4 Lightning Bolt
-3 Fire/ice
-2 Bounce
-4 Force of Will

But actually, thats random and bullshit to tell the least. What are you boarding? Should I even bring in my Red Elemental Blasts at all?

How would you Sideboard against Dreadstill Ur and Urg?

sauce
08-05-2009, 11:35 AM
random opponent, always keep mana for stifle, if they don't got a fetch, oh well, if they do, then you're in the $.

the matchup is very bad preboard for you vs all cb/top style decks. they usually run 20 lands, so wasteland/stifle only goes so far.
stp > goyfs and your only hope for a mongoose to get there is if they don't draw a goyf of their own.
mongoose IS the most important card in your deck vs nassif.dec, followed by the ever amazing fire/ice since it kills both sower and dark confidants.
sower is almost a dead card vs you unless you have a goyf out.
same w/ shackles.

i tested gooba's list vs ugw (older) thresh w/ predicts and its probably around 45/55 for us.

spell snare the goyf is usually better than spell snare the cb.
always force of will top.

Cenarius
08-05-2009, 12:30 PM
Bleh, force of will a top on the draw. One daze and you can already pack your back and go home.
Personally, I think that Merfolk is ok. It is close but it's ok. They can't do anything about your goyf so thats all you got :D. Lightning Bolt and especially Fire/Ice are the cards you want to see the most I guess. However it totally depends on the 7 cards your opponent gets. If your opponent has the nuts, well it becomes really really hard. If he has a normal hand, your chances are way better.
LoA is not really that big of a problem, Aether Vial is. If that card hits the table it becomes so much harder to beat Merfolk. However, it's just 4 out of 60 cards. The chances they have it all the time is fairly small.
My sideboard gives:
4 Pyroblast
2/3 Pithing Needle
2/3 Pyroclasm

So I think postboard is much better for me. Arround 60-65% at the max still, but it is enough.
Another thing is that my build has more counters to stop Vial when I'm on the play and more counters to stop standstill and/or other lords. 3 Force Spike help a lot in this matchup, more than you would expect.

UGW(B) Threshold decks are a pain in the ass. Their Sensei's Divining Top is a card that basically ruins your deck. The dice-roll is pretty important for my deck. This enables you to Stifle their Fetch, Force Spike their Sensei's Divining Top, Dazing their Cantrip and so on. Another hugh problem is Swords to Plowshares, since they simply always have an answer for your Tarmogoyf and ofcourse the most dreadful card: Counterbalance.
You probably have like 15% chance when the card hits the table connected with a Sensei's Divining Top, even with a bounce in your deck. Simply because you can't use your Cantrips to find it.
However, Tarmogoyf will not be boarded out. You are simply to afraid of theirs. A combination of Submerge and Pyroblast are probably the way to board. I'm not sure how much of each card, I still need to test that.

About the gameplan:

Keep mana open for Stifle. The best way to do it is, since your opponent does not expect it: Play Wooded Foothills and go.
Then play Ponder at turn 2. Drop a land and say go.
Then at turn 3: Play Nimble and say go.

This is normally how I would play against nearly any Legacy deck. Keeping mana open = Good Game.

I personally just need a lot of testing, since my mainboard has been changed into Force Spike's. When I know more, I'll share my thoughts.

Blitzbold
08-05-2009, 02:27 PM
Bleh, force of will a top on the draw. One daze and you can already pack your back and go home.
Personally, I think that Merfolk is ok. It is close but it's ok. They can't do anything about your goyf so thats all you got :D. Lightning Bolt and especially Fire/Ice are the cards you want to see the most I guess. However it totally depends on the 7 cards your opponent gets. If your opponent has the nuts, well it becomes really really hard. If he has a normal hand, your chances are way better.
LoA is not really that big of a problem, Aether Vial is. If that card hits the table it becomes so much harder to beat Merfolk. However, it's just 4 out of 60 cards. The chances they have it all the time is fairly small.
My sideboard gives:
4 Pyroblast
2/3 Pithing Needle
2/3 Pyroclasm

So I think postboard is much better for me. Arround 60-65% at the max still, but it is enough.
Another thing is that my build has more counters to stop Vial when I'm on the play and more counters to stop standstill and/or other lords. 3 Force Spike help a lot in this matchup, more than you would expect.



Before M10 I loved to play against merfolk, as they couldn't do much about the Mungos and burn + Sideboarded cards were totally sufficient to smash them.

However, I tested against the new brew of Merfolk featuring the full 12 lords yesterday, and man, that deck is a pain in the a$$. Sure, by cutting Stifles it lacks the tempo-part of Merfolk, but they have a very fast clock supported by very efficient countermagic as well as Vials + Standstills. Everyone should test that matchup as this sort of Merfolk will become quite popular in my opinion. Every land becomes crucial, Dazing something hurts, and a single Wasteland can spell doom on us. To be honest, it was not a nice testing session. :(

HBspulse
08-12-2009, 08:07 AM
About the merfolk matchup : it is quite horrible.
Post-sb Mongoose is pretty dead thanks to relic of progenitus. I've tried all configurations, from null rods to pithing needles.

It remains quite horrible. With the new lords, mongoose just doesn't get there. They have easy access to a three power creature. Goyf could get there in multiples on rare occasions, but often lacked strength due to relic or was stolen away by mind harness.

So I turned things around. The dreadnought sb :

4 Phyrexian dreadnought
1 Trickbind
3 Red elemental blast
1 Pyroclasm
2 Firespout
2 Tormod's crypt
2 Krosan grip

Sb strategy against all decks that bring in relic :
Take out 4 Nimble mongoose, Get in the dreadnoughts

Last tournament almost all my wins postboard were dreadnought wins.

It's easy, it's fast and it scares the hell out of your opponent when you announce to play it. Who cares about relic?

Try it I would say.

undone
08-14-2009, 10:24 PM
Eh I dont know if the Naught board is a great idea if you MD 2 cliques. The simple fact is that relic isnt THAT bad for us, especialy with clique. The reason clique is so good is that once resolved its basicaly a 6 turn unstopable clock that prevents disruption and ships a lord away. The bottom line is keep LOA off the board and your golden because if they have to crack a relic (possible to make them do it too) you can blow them way out with a stifle.

My MD is cnadaian thresh -2 bounce +2 clique (more dudes is good)

My SB is

2 REB
2 Pyroblast
3 Pryoclasm
2 Grip
2 Predator
4 submerge

I could cut 1 submerge for something (possibly an alternate win condition such as clique) or possibly even REB 5.

Shriekmaw
08-18-2009, 10:11 AM
I'm not sure what all this fuss is about when going over the merfolk matchup. I don't even have to board against this matchup because it is such a joke, its not even funny. If you are playing canadian threshold, your main deck is set up so well against it, basically anything they play just dies with all the removal that we pack.

In game 2, we get access to red blasts/pyroclams/submerges to make the matchup even better. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, I'm not sure why you guys think merfolk is so bad. One of the best matchups by far for the deck.

sauce
08-18-2009, 12:36 PM
I'm not sure what all this fuss is about when going over the merfolk matchup. I don't even have to board against this matchup because it is such a joke, its not even funny. If you are playing canadian threshold, your main deck is set up so well against it, basically anything they play just dies with all the removal that we pack.

In game 2, we get access to red blasts/pyroclams/submerges to make the matchup even better. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, I'm not sure why you guys think merfolk is so bad. One of the best matchups by far for the deck.

submerge is not even good unless they are playing the goyf folk list.
yeah its pretty easy if they don't get a crazy draw and you see a few fire/ice and bolts.
i never had a problem vs merfolk either.

Blitzbold
08-18-2009, 01:10 PM
The regular lists are not problematic at all. The lists with 12 lords are, at least in my experience so far, as Fire / Ice isn't enough to kill a lord quickly, and Goose only trades with a fish instead of killing it.

Shriekmaw
08-20-2009, 09:07 AM
The regular lists are not problematic at all. The lists with 12 lords are, at least in my experience so far, as Fire / Ice isn't enough to kill a lord quickly, and Goose only trades with a fish instead of killing it.


I have not seen a list with 12 lords do anything because those lists are just not as good which is probably the main reason I haven't run into it. Regardless, after game 1 I have 4 Lightning bolts, 4 Fire/Ice, 4 Pyroblast/RED, 1 EE, 1 Pyroclasm, 1 Krosan Grip. I don't see how you would not think this matchup is not only easy but a joke. The matchup is something like 80/20 if not better.

You just burn their creatures and let goose or goyf go the distance against them. Don't forget that we also have wasteland to neutralize there mutavaults which is also very important.

If you want to discuss harder matchups, I'm all ears. After Gencon, I found out how much survival elves, merfolk, goblins, and combo is so easy, its basically a bye.

Atog
08-20-2009, 09:48 AM
I have not seen a list with 12 lords do anything because those lists are just not as good which is probably the main reason I haven't run into it. Regardless, after game 1 I have 4 Lightning bolts, 4 Fire/Ice, 4 Pyroblast/RED, 1 EE, 1 Pyroclasm, 1 Krosan Grip. I don't see how you would not think this matchup is not only easy but a joke. The matchup is something like 80/20 if not better.

You just burn their creatures and let goose or goyf go the distance against them. Don't forget that we also have wasteland to neutralize there mutavaults which is also very important.

If you want to discuss harder matchups, I'm all ears. After Gencon, I found out how much survival elves, merfolk, goblins, and combo is so easy, its basically a bye.

What you guys side in against survival, 4c or ugb version? Grip is quite obvious but how about that pyroclasm? Do you think that is needed or do we hang around just with maindeck burn? And EE, that would be usefull too, yes? And what to side out?

johanessen
08-20-2009, 10:08 AM
I have not seen a list with 12 lords do anything because those lists are just not as good which is probably the main reason I haven't run into it. Regardless, after game 1 I have 4 Lightning bolts, 4 Fire/Ice, 4 Pyroblast/RED, 1 EE, 1 Pyroclasm, 1 Krosan Grip. I don't see how you would not think this matchup is not only easy but a joke. The matchup is something like 80/20 if not better.

Try reading last pages of Merfolk thread. Anyways, I also think Merfolk is favourable to Canadian lists.

Shriekmaw
08-20-2009, 04:26 PM
What you guys side in against survival, 4c or ugb version? Grip is quite obvious but how about that pyroclasm? Do you think that is needed or do we hang around just with maindeck burn? And EE, that would be usefull too, yes? And what to side out?


Survival Elves: + 1 Grip, +1 EE, +1 Pyroclasm, +4 Submerge (MVP). - 2 Bounce, - 4 Stifle (its usually 2 colors), -1 Ponder

4 color Survival: basically the same but leave the stifles in since they are more important since they are playing just about all non-basics and more fetches. I would board out ponders, and one fire/ice.

Its a tempo game and you always want to have mana up against them, thats why I would say cut the ponders if you are leaving in the stifles.

Regarding Merfolk, I don't care what people are talking about in there thread but if they wish to play all 12 lords in there deck, then they will be doing consistenly worse in tournaments because they don't be able to play a lot of there good utility creatures like that do now.

I think Merfolk will go away a little when people realize all you have to do is to play red and you beat the deck. It's sometimes just that easy.

Atog
08-20-2009, 05:04 PM
Survival Elves: + 1 Grip, +1 EE, +1 Pyroclasm, +4 Submerge (MVP). - 2 Bounce, - 4 Stifle (its usually 2 colors), -1 Ponder

4 color Survival: basically the same but leave the stifles in since they are more important since they are playing just about all non-basics and more fetches. I would board out ponders, and one fire/ice.

Its a tempo game and you always want to have mana up against them, thats why I would say cut the ponders if you are leaving in the stifles.

Regarding Merfolk, I don't care what people are talking about in there thread but if they wish to play all 12 lords in there deck, then they will be doing consistenly worse in tournaments because they don't be able to play a lot of there good utility creatures like that do now.

I think Merfolk will go away a little when people realize all you have to do is to play red and you beat the deck. It's sometimes just that easy.

Thanks for your reply! How about merfolk? I thought something like this:

- 4x Daze
- 1x Spell Snare
- 1x Stifle
- 1x Ponder

+ 4x REB/Pyroblast
+ 1x Pyroclasm
+ 1x EE
+ 1x Krosan grip

Or should i side out bounces instead of Spell Snare and Stifle..?

Bahamuth
08-20-2009, 05:08 PM
Thanks for your reply! How about merfolk? I thought something like this:

- 4x Daze
- 1x Spell Snare
- 1x Stifle
- 1x Ponder

+ 4x REB/Pyroblast
+ 1x Pyroclasm
+ 1x EE
+ 1x Krosan grip

Or should i side out bounces instead of Spell Snare and Stifle..?

Why would you board out Daze in this matchup? Stifle is way worse. I'd advice you people to try Needle as a 3-off in the sideboard. It's really a strong card in the Merfolk matchup, is very good against Landstill and probably very boardable against CbTopThresh. You fear Top more than anything playing against that deck.

Edit: Nickrit, what the hell? My team has tested Tempo Thresh vs. Goblins for probably over 100 games. We're pretty sure the matchup is about even. Also, Tempo Thresh certainly doesn't have a bye against any form of combo. I'm pretty sure ANT lists can get close to 50/50 and slower Doomsday variants are positive against Tempo Thresh.

Atog
08-20-2009, 05:19 PM
Why would you board out Daze in this matchup? Stifle is way worse. I'd advice you people to try Needle as a 3-off in the sideboard. It's really a strong card in the Merfolk matchup, is very good against Landstill and probably very boardable against CbTopThresh. You fear Top more than anything playing against that deck.

Edit: Nickrit, what the hell? My team has tested Tempo Thresh vs. Goblins for probably over 100 games. We're pretty sure the matchup is about even. Also, Tempo Thresh certainly doesn't have a bye against any form of combo. I'm pretty sure ANT lists can get close to 50/50 and slower Doomsday variants are positive against Tempo Thresh.

Stifle just hits their wasteland and can be useful sometime then they try use vial in response for pyroclasm example. I could be wrong about that, i just need to test that way too, haven't do that yet.

What you take away from Caplan's sideboard if you put 3x needles in? Or what's your sideboard is looking like?

Bahamuth
08-20-2009, 05:34 PM
Stifle just hits their wasteland and can be useful sometime then they try use vial in response for pyroclasm example. I could be wrong about that, i just need to test that way too, haven't do that yet.

What you take away from Caplan's sideboard if you put 3x needles in? Or what's your sideboard is looking like?

The situations you list don't matter at all. Stifle is too dead to stay in.

My board is usually:
4 Blast
4 Submerge
3 Needle
2 Clasm
2 Grip

Shriekmaw
08-21-2009, 09:09 AM
Edit: Nickrit, what the hell? My team has tested Tempo Thresh vs. Goblins for probably over 100 games. We're pretty sure the matchup is about even. Also, Tempo Thresh certainly doesn't have a bye against any form of combo. I'm pretty sure ANT lists can get close to 50/50 and slower Doomsday variants are positive against Tempo Thresh.


There is no way that the goblin matchup is 50/50. The matchup is at least 60/40 in Canadian Threshold favor. I've not lost this matchup yet even though some of the games are fairly close. When 2 pyroclasms come in after game 1 it just gets better not worse.

The ANT decks can win, but yet again its not even close to 50/50. The tempo decks are actually a worse matchup for ANT than the CB decks. If I make it to my turn 1, they have not won a game against me. This is why we have disrupt in the board, b/c it basically makes this matchup not winnable for them.

If you are losing to these matchups, then something is wrong because these are very good matchups. I worry about the bad matchups such as 43 land, stax, trainwreck, aggro loam, and enchantress.

johanessen
08-21-2009, 09:26 AM
I've been playing both ANT and Canadian and I have to say first game is in favour of ANT. Combo player only has to fear fow if he knows he's playing against canadian keep one mana open and fetch lands only when necessary, some times it's better to use chrome mox so they stifle it play the fetch the land. After sideboard Canadian has 70/30 in his favour thanks to disrupts and pyros, also is ok to side in ee. Out Ponders (we have to play disrupt) F/I and bouncers.

Muradin
08-21-2009, 12:19 PM
I am indeed convinced that Aggro Loam is a good matchup for Tempo Thresh. I played this particular matchup a lot as a friend of mine was tired of losing to Tempo Thresh with his Aggro Loam and we adjusted it to turn the win percentages a bit. Basically Aggro Loam is very easy to catch with its pants down. They do run about 12 creatures. Amongst those there are always 4 Tarmogoyf and most of time some Countryside Crushers and Confidants. Those can be handled very easily. Besides they do run about 26 lands +4 Moxen but amongst those lands there are cycle lands, Wastelands and some utility lands that produce colorless mana.

The rest of the deck usually is some Devastating Dreams (they are really bad and especially risky in this matchup) and Chalice of the Void (Wins for them if they get it very early on and you don't have any Force of Will, but this doesn't happen that often. Besides, the testing games for this matchup have finally shown me that the bounce spells are not just cool and Force fodder but can easily win games, especially Rushing River has been very good for me in this matchup.
It is absolutely ok for me to play VS Aggro Loam with Tempo Threshold. I don't say it is an awesome matchup, but rather favorable for Thresh.

Enchantress is what I consider slightly negative, I don't have that many test games VS that though and my tournament experience might have been against quite bad builds/pilots because I crushed every enchantress deck I played so far even when I was piloting goblins.

I feel that our most common bad matchup are all together most of the decks discussed in the CB + Top thread. The rest of the decks you named, such as Train Wreck, Stax and 43 Lands are actually decks I have to face very seldom, but this might of course be different in your metagame.

Goblins should be 55-45 pre and postboard. We get Clasm, they get Relic. That's just fair, depending on how many copies of each card everyone has.
Merfolk isn’t a bye I think. Indeed they can get hands where it is very hard to win and you have to play very tight most of the games against this deck. But simply the structure of this deck gives us an advantage against Merfolk. They have weak creatures that pump each other. We have good creatures and a shitload of burn. This has always been good in this type of matchup, just the way it is good VS Goblins, Elves, Zombies, Dwarves, Faeries… every kind of tribal decks.

Bahamuth
08-21-2009, 12:40 PM
Goblins easily has the tools to beat us. We can easily lose to Port+Waste or to a Vialed Ringleader in mid- to lategame. Relic paired with an aggressive plan also wrecks us usually.

I don't see how you can't lose a game after your first turn against ANT. You lose to land-land-land-Chant all the time. Spell Snare is usually a pretty bad card and Daze usually only matters in multiples. The only real threats you have are 4 FoW.

Adan
08-21-2009, 03:05 PM
Goblins easily has the tools to beat us. We can easily lose to Port+Waste or to a Vialed Ringleader in mid- to lategame. Relic paired with an aggressive plan also wrecks us usually.

Hm, you have a lot of outs against that. But shall I tell you how to really lose against Goblins? If he goes:

Lackey (bolted), Lackey (FoW'd), Lackey (resolves, play Goose), Warren Wierding, Warren Weirding.
That happened to me in Annecy. Twice. And I'm really not calm enough to not shout at my opp when hat happens.

Bu really, the Goblin player is absolutely dependant on either Lackey or Aether Vial on his 1st Turn everything else is just irrelevant and doesn't apply pressure. If he tries to attack the base with Waste+Port, just stifle the Wastes and Waste the Ports. I have never lost against non-recurred manadenial with TempoThresh so far nor was it ever a problem.


I don't see how you can't lose a game after your first turn against ANT. You lose to land-land-land-Chant all the time. Spell Snare is usually a pretty bad card and Daze usually only matters in multiples. The only real threats you have are 4 FoW.

ANT plays plenty of fetchland, doesn't it? And the white manasources for Chant are nonbasic. You might waste them. Or just any nonbasic in an opportune moment. This is where Daze shines then.
Spell Snare isn't great, that's true, but the fact that you play it makes it nearly impossible for the opponent to go for the LED-LED-Infernal plan.
Hitting Cabal Rituals can also steal wins.
But they key is basically to apply pressure, Bolts and Fire//Ices can drag down his lifetotals like VERY FAST to make Ad Nauseam suck.

Of course you can lose to a very lucky hand, but overall the matchup should be fine, especially when you are running gooba's board with the Disrupts.

edit: Oh, and you Nijmengen guys are playing Force Spike. That's even better against ANT. :-)

johanessen
08-21-2009, 03:32 PM
I usually play pacts maindeck over orims and leave the tundra to sideboard, and since the nerf of Leds im not running em anymore. But okay, most lists plays them. As I said I think first game is favourable to ANT (also, depending on what list we take) but post side if we got disrupts its alot easier.

Bahamuth
08-21-2009, 04:10 PM
Look, things just don't always go the way you want them too. You do not have acces to Waste+Stifle or double Waste/Stifle every game. The deck doesn't work that flawlessly. You don't have to tell me we win with Stifle Waste and Daze if the opponent fetches, but if he plays around Stifle, gets basics and wait long enough to win through Daze, Ant has very decent chances of winning.

Goblins has a huge edge when they resolve turn 1 Vial or connect with Lackey, but it's definitely not true at all they automatically lose if they don't. You have a hard time defeating a 24-land mana base with very aggressive creatures that give card advantage as well. Active Vial and connecting Lackey means you lose if they have a decent hand.
Having a lot of outs means absolutely nothing. You pretty much want to counter everything the Goblin player plays. They have almost no creatures that don't matter, especially post-board, when crappy goblins come out for Relics. As I said before, Relic fucks you badly, especially in an aggressive deck that also runs ways to make alot of dudes.

Adan
08-21-2009, 05:41 PM
So, this is what I tried today. A mix between tempo and control. It scoops to Blood Moon and Wasteland (see the three Needles in SB..)

That might just be the most suitable description of your manabase, sir.
What advantage does this color combination give you?


Why no Stifle+Waste? I hate to mull because of no blue land.

Well, of course it sucks when you are 4colored.


Why StP and burn together? I like to destroy creatures, and StP + burn is good at it.. also burn can aim at head.

Burn does damage to the head. Yes. But Swords to Plowshares gives the opponent life, am I right? So what sense does it make to play a Lightning Bolt and a Fire/Ice onto your opponent when a Sword on his Tarmogoyf gives him these 5 life just back?

IT'S A FUCKING ANTI SYNGERY I HAVE CRITIZICED FOR YEARS, WHY DO PEOPLE STILL DO THIS???

Seriously, Red should be for Firespout and REBs SB. If ever. But currently I don't see why you shouldn't play Black which provides Confidant as a good CA machine and Thoughtseize and Engineered Plague as equivalents to REBs and Firespouts.

Uhm, just to recap: You are neither playing CB-Top nor Stifle-Waste, altogether with a awful manabase and the Burn+StoP design-fail.
Why should this build ever be viable?

paK0
08-21-2009, 06:10 PM
So, you posted a list in the TEMPO thresh thread in which you wrecked the manabase and cut the mana denial to splash for cards that give your opponents extra life?

Henrik
08-22-2009, 07:54 AM
At first I thiougt to post it into Armageddon Stax, but as it does nt play neither Smokestack, nor Armageddon, I posted it here..

Ha, that was rather funny ;)

Seriously, I can respect the power of tons of removal, but since you don't play the mana denial anyways, why not make it Path to Exile? Make it a Bant Aggro with some counters, and you will do fine I think. I see what you are trying to do here and I you encourage you to try it out, but I agree with previous speaker regarding anti-synergy.

Volrath
08-22-2009, 08:23 AM
With the uprising of Zoo and Merfolk, among other Aggro decks, is Flametongue Kavu not a great card oncemore?

I play him as a two-off these days, and it wins many games and often gives you a two-for 1, or an efficient beater.

Your thoughts?.

Atog
08-22-2009, 08:45 AM
With the uprising of Zoo and Merfolk, among other Aggro decks, is Flametongue Kavu not a great card oncemore?

I play him as a two-off these days, and it wins many games and often gives you a two-for 1, or an efficient beater.

Your thoughts?.

It has same issue than other cards what cost 4cc - it cost too much. And i think we have plenty of burn already so we don't need extra removal. What you have cutted for it?

Volrath
08-22-2009, 09:01 AM
The Lorescale's i have been testing with, i founnd them subpar in an Aggro meta.


So my creatures look like this now(still testing)

4x goyf
4x mongoose
3x metagame filler(Magus/FTK/Clique/Lorescale.
Usually 2 magus and 1 clique, 2 Lorescale and 1 clique or 2 magus and 1 kavu or 2 kavu and one clique.

Adan
08-22-2009, 05:23 PM
Ha, that was rather funny ;)

Seriously, I can respect the power of tons of removal, but since you don't play the mana denial anyways, why not make it Path to Exile?

I admit that comment also made me smile, but running Path to Exiles means automatically that you will have to cut Daze. And that sucks. Especially when you are trying to play Tempo and in consequence to force ppl to play into Daze. Every Path you resolve against your opponent makes Daze worse.
The only build where you might be able to play it is maybe our SPOD-build from Annecy (which doesn't play Daze anymore) or in the Sb against matchups where you would board out Dazes (i.e. Aggroloam).

But this is usually the SB-plan of Counterbalance Thresh, I actually never side out Dazes when playing Tempothresh.

TrialByFire
08-23-2009, 11:15 PM
I thought Ichorid was a bad matchup for this deck? Caplan always seems to 2-0 it on the way to some Top 8. Im playing his list from the GP. What are the Game 1 strategies against Ichorid to make the matchup a little better? Also what strategies for boarding/Games 2 and 3?

I feel like it should be a better matchup than my testing suggests, maybe he is just getting lucky? Caplan himself if he reads this would be helpful.

J.V.
08-23-2009, 11:21 PM
I thought Ichorid was a bad matchup for this deck? Caplan always seems to 2-0 it on the way to some Top 8. Im playing his list from the GP. What are the Game 1 strategies against Ichorid to make the matchup a little better? Also what strategies for boarding/Games 2 and 3?

I feel like it should be a better matchup than my testing suggests, maybe he is just getting lucky? Caplan himself if he reads this would be helpful.

Counter the discard outlets and play goyfs is usually how I win game one. As for siding REBS/Pyroblast, EE, and Pyroclasm all come in.

undone
08-24-2009, 07:48 AM
Counter the discard outlets and play goyfs is usually how I win game one. As for siding REBS/Pyroblast, EE, and Pyroclasm all come in.

Its very hard to win this matchup against someone who knows how the deck and MU is played. If you go first and show a blue and he simply DDD's you have to make a goyf/goose on turn 2 to have any chance of winning. Forceing his discard outlet will only happen if he is a bad player and trys to cast spells against you on the draw or you force the first turn explode.

The thing is alot of ichorid players forget FOW is a card which is why they get blown out, if you FOW thier first turn followed by waste/goyf/goose/daze/other disruption they just die.

Also to the above goblins problem: If goblins isnt a buy 2-0 or 2-1 switch decks, your not doing it right.

My list is the standard 60 -2 bounce +2 Clique which makes the relic matchups better.

PS: if you insist on building a worse deck with UGrw dont play swords play path, at least that is somewhat logical since you dont play mana denial. but :eyebrow: that deck just seems bad no CT and no waste/stifle makes for a bad thresh list.

goobafish
08-24-2009, 09:01 AM
I thought Ichorid was a bad matchup for this deck? Caplan always seems to 2-0 it on the way to some Top 8. Im playing his list from the GP. What are the Game 1 strategies against Ichorid to make the matchup a little better? Also what strategies for boarding/Games 2 and 3?

I feel like it should be a better matchup than my testing suggests, maybe he is just getting lucky? Caplan himself if he reads this would be helpful.

Originally, I wrote Ichorid off as a very bad matchup and decided not to do any extensive testing or sideboard tweaking against it. I made this decision through my experience in Vintage where I would try to strengthen my deck against Ichorid by tweaking the sideboard, and by doing so, I would weaken my sideboard vs the rest of the field.

I have yet to lose a match to Ichorid in an event with Canadian Threshold, and I have played against it many times. Some of these have been purely based on luck (see Winter Wonderland Report vs Anwar), while others I found that I can cut off their discard outlet to beat them. At the GP, my opponent mulliganed to 3 game 1, and in the prelims at Gencon my opponent mulliganed to 4. The deck seems to require frequent mulligans, and many keepable hands get blown away by Force, Daze, Stifle or Burn (for discard outlet). In addition to these hands that are easily stopped, Ichorid relies on the randomness of dredges, and sometimes their first dredge can hit blank, and they need to go into topdeck mode. I really don't want to go over all the inconsistencies of Dredge, because I am sure they are well known, my real point is not that Dredge looses to its own inconsistency, but that Canadian Thresh makes it difficult for Dredge to recover from these inconsistencies though its numerous cheap/free countermagic.

Tarmogoyf allows you to race them if they stagger on their start. Stifle hits Coliseum, Narcomeba triggers, bridge triggers, Ichorid triggers, Ichorid sacrificing. Your cheap countermagic (especially postboard) allows you to stop their discard outlet quite often. In addition to the cards that J.V. recommended you put in, I normally side in Disrupts, another cheap counterspell that can hit Careful Studys or Breakthroughs, or, when useless, just cantrip.

As for game 1, focus on keeping mana open to counter discard outlets, treat it as a combo deck. Then, use your cantrips to dig for a Tarmogoyf to race them.

Hope this helps.

DragoFireheart
08-27-2009, 02:44 PM
Why are we trying to splash white? Aren't wasteland decks (ironically) a good way of fighting this deck? And did some say Path to fucking Exile in a mana denial deck!? Oh swell, lets make Daze, Stifle and Wasteland suck for a splash that doesn't really add much to the deck and makes our mana base even weaker. Swords to Plowshares? Do you enjoy 2-1 ing yourself? Do you like to make your Lightnings Bolts fucking useless? Wasn't the reason we play Tempo was to have quick critters and reach to finish them off? Go play Zoo if you want to play with Bolts and Swords as it's debatable in at least that deck.

...

Sorry, splashing white seems like a bad idea for this deck. 3 colors is enough and neither of the white removal splash mesh well with this deck and create a HUGE amount of bad synergy. I could see black as a possible splash, maybe for Dark Confidant (for card advantage) or Thoughtseize (more disruption)... maybe. But not white, and even if white were a possibility, it most likely wouldn't be Swords and it certainly wouldn't be Path to fucking Exile.

Henrik
08-28-2009, 03:35 AM
What's the matter with you, forgot to take your blood medicine this morning?
Chill, jeez... PtE was suggested for a list that didn't use neither wasteland nor stifle, but I guess you missed you missed that. Also, it is quite obvious that daze won't be played in such a list either, which was also mentioned. The aim of the suggested list was simply to have a lot of removal, which doesn't necessarily mean you 2-1 yourself with a swords to plowshares either, would you choose to run it.

I don't say that is a good list either, I just want to calm you down, so that your heart doesn't stop.

Thank you for your informative post though, lots of f-words and other cool stuff from the hood.

DragoFireheart
08-28-2009, 09:33 AM
What's the matter with you, forgot to take your blood medicine this morning?

This isn't me mad.



Chill, jeez... PtE was suggested for a list that didn't use neither wasteland nor stifle, but I guess you missed you missed that. Also, it is quite obvious that daze won't be played in such a list either, which was also mentioned. The aim of the suggested list was simply to have a lot of removal, which doesn't necessarily mean you 2-1 yourself with a swords to plowshares either, would you choose to run it.

At this point it really isn't tempo thresh. It's like going into a Landstill deck and suggesting to run 8-cheap beaters in place of counters: it's not really Landstill at that point.


I don't say that is a good list either, I just want to calm you down, so that your heart doesn't stop.

Thank you for your informative post though, lots of f-words and other cool stuff from the hood.

That isn't me mad. :laugh:

TrialByFire
08-31-2009, 03:13 PM
Originally, I wrote Ichorid off as a very bad matchup and decided not to do any extensive testing or sideboard tweaking against it. I made this decision through my experience in Vintage where I would try to strengthen my deck against Ichorid by tweaking the sideboard, and by doing so, I would weaken my sideboard vs the rest of the field.

I have yet to lose a match to Ichorid in an event with Canadian Threshold, and I have played against it many times. Some of these have been purely based on luck (see Winter Wonderland Report vs Anwar), while others I found that I can cut off their discard outlet to beat them. At the GP, my opponent mulliganed to 3 game 1, and in the prelims at Gencon my opponent mulliganed to 4. The deck seems to require frequent mulligans, and many keepable hands get blown away by Force, Daze, Stifle or Burn (for discard outlet). In addition to these hands that are easily stopped, Ichorid relies on the randomness of dredges, and sometimes their first dredge can hit blank, and they need to go into topdeck mode. I really don't want to go over all the inconsistencies of Dredge, because I am sure they are well known, my real point is not that Dredge looses to its own inconsistency, but that Canadian Thresh makes it difficult for Dredge to recover from these inconsistencies though its numerous cheap/free countermagic.

Tarmogoyf allows you to race them if they stagger on their start. Stifle hits Coliseum, Narcomeba triggers, bridge triggers, Ichorid triggers, Ichorid sacrificing. Your cheap countermagic (especially postboard) allows you to stop their discard outlet quite often. In addition to the cards that J.V. recommended you put in, I normally side in Disrupts, another cheap counterspell that can hit Careful Studys or Breakthroughs, or, when useless, just cantrip.

As for game 1, focus on keeping mana open to counter discard outlets, treat it as a combo deck. Then, use your cantrips to dig for a Tarmogoyf to race them.

Hope this helps.

Thanks Dave, that actually helps a lot. What does your sideboarding usually look like. I know what you want to put in, but what do you usually take out?

I guess the 2x Bounce obviously, and maybe Fire/Ice or Bolt but not both? Spell Snare definitely, but it seems like you're siding in 8-10 cards so what else comes out?

Also, any insight on the Merfolk matchup, I feel like I lose it more than win it. Is it a bad matchup? Maybe I am just unlucky? Looking at the new list with 12x Lords

Atog
08-31-2009, 03:38 PM
Also, any insight on the Merfolk matchup, I feel like I lose it more than win it. Is it a bad matchup? Maybe I am just unlucky? Looking at the new list with 12x Lords

That should not be that bad matchup. You have 8 burn in maindeck and you get 4x Reb/Pyroblast, pyroclasm and EE to deal with lords and other dudes. So those should be enough. Try to make good trades in combat (they attack with islandwalk, burn LoA and block their small dudes). That should work :)

Kuma
08-31-2009, 04:36 PM
I've been playing frequently against Tempo Thresh with CounterTop, and I've been wondering/discussing with players at my store how to properly sideboard against Tempo Thresh. The main question is whether or not boarding out Counterbalance is a good idea. The card has the potential to wreck Tempo Thresh, but at the same time Tempo Thresh runs Force, Daze, Spell Snare, Krosan Grip, Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast, Engineered Explosives and Trygon Predator. I think that it isn't worth the resources and effort to fight over Counterbalance when Tempo Thresh runs so many hate cards, but most players I talk to disagree.

What do some of you Tempo Thresh players think? What would you sideboard out and in against Tempo Thresh if you were playing CounterTop?

rsaunder
08-31-2009, 04:55 PM
The resources will be spent fighting over something, it might as well be something as devastating as CB. CB with flips at 1 shuts off like half of the deck, add in a 2cc with top switching things around and they get nothing but anti-CB cards. A worthwhile investment if you ask me.

Cenarius
09-01-2009, 07:26 AM
Pff, Countertop already has such a good matchup against Tempo Threshold, since it contains the worst card ever for Tempo Threshold: Sensei's Divining Top.
In my list I play 12 CC2 cards: Daze, Fire/Ice and Tarmogoyf. The rest is CC 1(since I play no bounce, and instead play Force Spike's).
It totally depends on your sideboard what you want to board in. Personally I think that Counterbalance is way too good to board out. Since it is just a gamewinner.

undone
09-01-2009, 08:05 AM
Pff, Countertop already has such a good matchup against Tempo Threshold, since it contains the worst card ever for Tempo Threshold: Sensei's Divining Top.
In my list I play 12 CC2 cards: Daze, Fire/Ice and Tarmogoyf. The rest is CC 1(since I play no bounce, and instead play Force Spike's).
It totally depends on your sideboard what you want to board in. Personally I think that Counterbalance is way too good to board out. Since it is just a gamewinner.

I will admit I force that card frequently but you can often come back from it. Boarding out CB is bad, good players dont fight over CB they let it resolve eat a random flip or two and keep countering/gripping/ect top.

The only way to lose the merfolk matchup is to get waste/stifled out of the game, or for them to go "Vial pass" followed by you having no burn. Its a rather easy matchup IMO. The folk deck relies heavily on mana denial standstil and lots of dudes, disrupt those and your pretty much golden.

HBspulse
09-01-2009, 09:35 AM
I will admit I force that card frequently but you can often come back from it. Boarding out CB is bad, good players dont fight over CB they let it resolve eat a random flip or two and keep countering/gripping/ect top.

The only way to lose the merfolk matchup is to get waste/stifled out of the game, or for them to go "Vial pass" followed by you having no burn. Its a rather easy matchup IMO. The folk deck relies heavily on mana denial standstil and lots of dudes, disrupt those and your pretty much golden.

Please test. Preboard you will probably lose most of the games.

If Merfolk adds creature control magic (threads of disloyalty or mind harness) and Relic of Progenitus, you will not stand a chance postsb. The power of standstill will knock you out once you traded burn and reb one for one. Goose and tarmogoyf are very weak once relic hits the board.

I don't know where you people get this. Merfolk makes tempo thres no more viable in this meta.

RogueMTG
09-01-2009, 09:45 AM
Please test. Preboard you will probably lose most of the games.

If Merfolk adds creature control magic (threads of disloyalty or mind harness) and Relic of Progenitus, you will not stand a chance postsb. The power of standstill will knock you out once you traded burn and reb one for one. Goose and tarmogoyf are very weak once relic hits the board.

I don't know where you people get this. Merfolk makes tempo thres no more viable in this meta.

Maybe it's just me, but I haven't lost a game one against Merfolk with tempo thresh... and standstill shouldn't even be resolving dude.

Post-board is another story w/relics and what not. But it's still not a bad matchup. (Pithing Needle is good.)

Atog
09-01-2009, 09:48 AM
Please test. Preboard you will probably lose most of the games.

If Merfolk adds creature control magic (threads of disloyalty or mind harness) and Relic of Progenitus, you will not stand a chance postsb. The power of standstill will knock you out once you traded burn and reb one for one. Goose and tarmogoyf are very weak once relic hits the board.

I don't know where you people get this. Merfolk makes tempo thres no more viable in this meta.

We have counter / grip / needle for relic if they a) resolve it b) even find it during the game. I not have find that relic is THAT big problem, sure that make your mongooses and tarmos smaller we play many cantrips so if they won't blow that relic tarmo will still be 3/4 or bigger most of time. That is just from what my testing has show..

Waikiki
09-01-2009, 09:52 AM
Please test. Preboard you will probably lose most of the games.

If Merfolk adds creature control magic (threads of disloyalty or mind harness) and Relic of Progenitus, you will not stand a chance postsb. The power of standstill will knock you out once you traded burn and reb one for one. Goose and tarmogoyf are very weak once relic hits the board.

I don't know where you people get this. Merfolk makes tempo thres no more viable in this meta.

Merfolk can be a pain in the ass, BUT I think your underestimating tempo thresh here. Post board I believe it can go either way depending on the start. If merfolk drops creature after creature things will look ugly combined with a hate form. But if thresh draws its removal than that will hurt folk aswell.

undone
09-01-2009, 03:01 PM
Please test. Preboard you will probably lose most of the games.

If Merfolk adds creature control magic (threads of disloyalty or mind harness) and Relic of Progenitus, you will not stand a chance postsb. The power of standstill will knock you out once you traded burn and reb one for one. Goose and tarmogoyf are very weak once relic hits the board.

I don't know where you people get this. Merfolk makes tempo thres no more viable in this meta.

I played vs both the 12 lord list and the waste/stifle list. The first one poses more problems than the second simply because if they manage to trip lord and vial vial you can lose pretty easily to the hoard of 4/4s but the only games I have ever lost to that deck were my own fault (keeping crappy hands that get blown away by waste/stifle and keeping hands that have no burn/goyfs)

My testing shows its heavily favoring tempo especialy if you play a single clique over RR and/or another over wipe away which mostly invalidates thier relics as clique is a fast beater that they actualy have 0 answers for if it resolves.

BTW you arent daze/forceing vials are you? that card is terrible you want it to be in play because its -1 threat to deal with. Simply play carefully and this match is handed to you on a silver platter, kind of like goblins, although you can lose it, it is VERY rare. You sound like the same type of person who complained that this deck cant beat goblins. Its simple absurdity.

Rule of thumb: Go to the thread of the deck that you think has a good matchup with the deck, if they are talking about the matchup, than its probably a bad matchup for them.

Side note: my testing was done with the standard list -2 bounce +2 clique. This card does infact win the race almost every time.

P.S.
09-01-2009, 03:21 PM
Has anyone tried Seedtime in the Sideboard? If you're all about tempo, especially against decks like Merfolk, taking an extra turn sure does seem pretty good.

TrialByFire
09-01-2009, 04:14 PM
Has anyone tried Seedtime in the Sideboard? If you're all about tempo, especially against decks like Merfolk, taking an extra turn sure does seem pretty good.

Merfolk doesn't play as many spells during your turn. The deck is mostly permanents.

Anyways back to the discussion. So how would you guys sideboard against Merfolk, card for card wise? I think it should be a decent matchup for us after board

Wargoos
09-01-2009, 04:23 PM
+ 4 Blasts
+ 1 EE
+ 1 Pyroclasm
+ 1 Krosan Grip

- 2 Bounce
- 1 Daze
- 4 Stifle

When playing David's Side.
Merfolk is a favorable mu anyways..

kabal
09-01-2009, 04:35 PM
- 4 Stifle

When playing David's Side.
Merfolk is a favorable mu anyways..

Really? How do you combat Wasteland and Relic. Have found most Merfolk builds will have 3 Relic post board.

Wargoos
09-01-2009, 04:43 PM
Really? How do you combat Wasteland and Relic. Have found most Merfolk builds will have 3 Relic post board.

Granted, I almost forgot the relics.
Instead of 4 Stifle take out
-1 Mungo
-1 Stifle
-1 Ponder and another Daze.
Maybe -2 Stifle, depending on the situation.
Also sideboarding is for me always a situational thing and I'm always boarding differently without a real "plan".

Also don't forget that stifle won't get you far combating Relics since just the first ability of relic can nearly wreck you, that's why you should better opt to counter them and rely on boarded EE's and Grip.
Stifle is mediocre till bad in this mu.

kabal
09-01-2009, 04:46 PM
Also don't forget that stifle won't get you far combating Relics since just the first ability of relic can nearly wreck you, that's why you should better opt to counter them and rely on boarded EE's and Grip.
Stifle is mediocre till bad in this mu.

Why I feel certain number of Needles is necessary in the board. Helps to combat Vial and Relic.

Wargoos
09-01-2009, 04:52 PM
Why I feel certain number of Needles is necessary in the board. Helps to combat Vial and Relic.
Well, you should try them, and if they work for you, then stick with them.
I wasn't happy with them, since they are too fragile, and testing Mr. Caplans sideboard I guess it is the best choice in an unforeseen meta.
If your meta offers lot's of merfolk and goblins though, pack some needles, since they got pretty cheap anyways.

Cenarius
09-01-2009, 06:12 PM
Well, you should try them, and if they work for you, then stick with them.
I wasn't happy with them, since they are too fragile, and testing Mr. Caplans sideboard I guess it is the best choice in an unforeseen meta.
If your meta offers lot's of merfolk and goblins though, pack some needles, since they got pretty cheap anyways.

Thats definitely wrong.
My sideboard runs:
4 Submerge
4 Pyroblast
3 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroclasm
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Krosan Grip

Pithing Needle is awesome against:
Survival
Goblins
Merfolk
Landstill (Elspeth, Wasteland, Factory, Jace(, maybe ajani) and more. There are just so many good targets.

Probably in a metagame with a lot of Merfolk and Goblins I would go -1 Submerge and +1 Pyroclasm. But that really depends on the amount of Agroloam, rock and Threshold ofcourse.
I think Pithing Needle is definitely the way to go in your sideboard. Disrupts are just unneccesary (especially when running Force Spike's in mainboard instead of 1 Spell Snare and 2 bounce/Clique).

nrabbit
09-01-2009, 10:25 PM
Do u guys find ever wishing Pyroclasm was Firespout? With the more lords coming into the picture (Merfolk, Goblins, and Elves) is Pyroclasm's 2 damage enough?

TrialByFire
09-01-2009, 11:12 PM
Do u guys find ever wishing Pyroclasm was Firespout? With the more lords coming into the picture (Merfolk, Goblins, and Elves) is Pyroclasm's 2 damage enough?

Firespout kills your Mongeese. Pyroclasm doesn't. If you play correctly they usually do the exact same thing to their side of the board

katakis
09-02-2009, 04:50 AM
The one thing that I still don't get: Why is Engineered Explosives such a common choice in Canadian Threshold side boards?

In which matchups does it really shine?
In any Counter Balance Matchups you're usually the agressor and need to play your beaters quite early. Thus it isn't that unlikely that EE blows up your own goyfs as well. Additionally, all the other CB hate is just far more efficient, imho. Trygon Predator is an evasive beater which can even be played proactively; Krosan Grip cannot be countered... EE is darn slow and usually needs two turns to get its job done (assuming you play it for cmc3 to avoid CB).
In aggro Matchups I question its effectiveness as well. Tribal aggro usually runs weird cmc's which weakens EE. Pyroclasm does a far better job. Other aggro, i.e. zoo or sligh, does not need to overextend to get you into burnrange. Thus EE is rarely card advantage and it gets even worse as soon as you got a beater yourself on the battlefield already.
Combo doesn't provide any good targets for EE.
Versus decks like dragon stompy, staxx, enchantress and other less common decks trygon predator, bounce and krosan grip do a better job than EE.

So I repeat my intial question: In which matchups does EE really shine? Did I miss anything?

Btw. my sideboard currently looks like this:

1 Trygon Predator (1 already in the main)
1 Disrupt
2 Hydroblast
2 Pyroblast
4 Submerge
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroclasm
1 Krosan Grip

About the odd looking 1/2/2 split between Disrupt, Hydroblast and Pyroblast:
My meta is full of red decks (zoo, burn, sligh) and therefore I want 3 hydroblasts, however I also want 3 Pyroblast versus blue control. As Disrupt can be good against both decks, I run the 1/2/2 split.

Wargoos
09-02-2009, 05:23 AM
Thats definitely wrong.
My sideboard runs:
4 Submerge
4 Pyroblast
3 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroclasm
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Krosan Grip

Pithing Needle is awesome against:
Survival
Goblins
Merfolk
Landstill (Elspeth, Wasteland, Factory, Jace(, maybe ajani) and more. There are just so many good targets.

Probably in a metagame with a lot of Merfolk and Goblins I would go -1 Submerge and +1 Pyroclasm. But that really depends on the amount of Agroloam, rock and Threshold ofcourse.
I think Pithing Needle is definitely the way to go in your sideboard. Disrupts are just unneccesary (especially when running Force Spike's in mainboard instead of 1 Spell Snare and 2 bounce/Clique).

I give you some months till you realize how suckey Needle is and that playing permanents besides the creature base is not what this deck wants.

a) you have a good mu against merfolk and goblins anyways. Needle is just win more in here.
Survival has usually shaky manabases and you can screw them over better then not.
Landstill has still too many outs against one needle, and you also have a lot of other cards you already want to board in that mu.
Why playing a card that just gets good in multiples?
If you don't shut off EE he's going to 2for1 you anyways.

b) my testing results with disrupt so far were just amazing. Against boardcontrol it's just a gamewinner since it disrupts keycards they need to stabilize the manabase while drawing you another counter.
Never going to drop them.

c) I'm already spending too much energy on this thread with this post, people just can't discuss things over here; this post shows this as well

Thats definitely wrong.
Yeah, right, because you said so?
Next thing you gonna say that we pack it to PoP?

[B]@nrabbit

Pyroclasm > firespout because cc2 > cc3
And since we're running other burnspells you can still take the whole board, even when there are 2 lords on the table.

@ katakis
EE serves the same purposes as clasm and grip.
Against swarmaggro you take lot's of their cc1 critters and more important the vials and relics.
Against aggro, you take their nacatls, apes and relics.
Against aggro-control you take the cb AND their goyfs as well.
Against ichorid you take zombie token.
Against random combo running EtW you take those tokens.
Against the mirror you also take their gooses.
Against dragon stompy the card you don't want to see is chalice, blowing up the ee lets you take their chrome moxen as well and let's you play the denialplan as well.


Also don't you think that predator is too clumsy?
I mean, you need to attack with it and thats not always possible.
Just play more grips. Predator is just good, when you meta offers some Staxx builds.

ALso I just won't run BEB's anymore, they're hardly important against those mus.

Bahamuth
09-02-2009, 05:41 AM
a) you have a good mu against merfolk and goblins anyways. Needle is just win more in here.
Survival has usually shaky manabases and you can screw them over better then not.
Landstill has still too many outs against one needle, and you also have a lot of other cards you already want to board in that mu.
Why playing a card that just gets good in multiples?
If you don't shut off EE he's going to 2for1 you anyways.

if the matchup is already positive (which I actually doubt for Goblins), improving it doesn't make it win more by any means. Let's say the Goblin matchup is 60/40 in our favor. We still have a (4/10)^2 + (4/10)*(6/10)*(4/10) chance of losing (chances on being 0-2'd and 1-2'd).
The same holds true for Survival. The fact that we already have a positive matchup doesn't mean we can't improve it.
Landstill's only out to Needle they will have in their main is EE or maybe Deed in a 4C version (this is hardly played though). EE is one of the cards you're most scared off anyway, so naming EE is a good plan in any case. I've been in situations where shutting off Factory won me the game (this was in the late game after 1 or 2 EEs).


b) my testing results with disrupt so far were just amazing. Against boardcontrol it's just a gamewinner since it disrupts keycards they need to stabilize the manabase [brainstorm] while drawing you another counter.
Never going to drop them.

I've tested them too, but they were pretty bad for me. How do you board against landstill?

Wargoos
09-02-2009, 06:03 AM
if the matchup is already positive (which I actually doubt for Goblins), improving it doesn't make it win more by any means. Let's say the Goblin matchup is 60/40 in our favor. We still have a (4/10)^2 + (4/10)*(6/10)*(4/10) chance of losing (chances on being 0-2'd and 1-2'd).
The same holds true for Survival. The fact that we already have a positive matchup doesn't mean we can't improve it.
Landstill's only out to Needle they will have in their main is EE or maybe Deed in a 4C version (this is hardly played though). EE is one of the cards you're most scared off anyway, so naming EE is a good plan in any case. I've been in situations where shutting off Factory won me the game (this was in the late game after 1 or 2 EEs).
I'ne never talked about increasing good mu would be win more.
Just about the needle, don't get me wrong.
You also forget Vindicate in Landstill.
Also you always increase you winchances against any mu, boarding in cards, that act better than others. It's now about sideboard tuning I guess.
€dit: Key of the game is stifling the ringleaders. My win streak against gobs broke some week ago, when I lost at a ~80peeps tourney to it, but im still kinda 11-4 against this.


I've tested them too, but they were pretty bad for me. How do you board against landstill?
Depends on what I've seen g1.
The no brainers are:
4 Disrupt
1 Krosan Grip
3-4 Blasts
1 EE

Out goes usually some Dazes, FI, Ponder, Stifle, Bounce(I play 2 Cliques and let them in, because they're winners here) and some Bolts.
I'm always boarding differently so don't ask me for numbers ;)

Bahamuth
09-02-2009, 06:49 AM
I'ne never talked about increasing good mu would be win more.
Just about the needle, don't get me wrong.


you have a good mu against merfolk and goblins anyways. Needle is just win more in here.

I'm pretty sure that is what you did here.


You also forget Vindicate in Landstill.

Okay sure. Still, in this case, they need both Vindicate and EE to beat a Mongoose + Peedle. This is still not a bad situation for you at all.




Depends on what I've seen g1.
The no brainers are:
4 Disrupt
1 Krosan Grip
3-4 Blasts
1 EE

Out goes usually some Dazes, FI, Ponder, Stifle, Bounce(I play 2 Cliques and let them in, because they're winners here) and some Bolts.
I'm always boarding differently so don't ask me for numbers ;)

How is it a good plan to board out Stifles, which are a crucial part of your mana denial plan, and board in counters that are only good when the opponent is low on mana?

Do you really belive the 4 Disrupt are worth the slots if you're taking out Daze, which has a similar function?

Wargoos
09-02-2009, 06:54 AM
I'm pretty sure that is what you did here.



Okay sure. Still, in this case, they need both Vindicate and EE to beat a Mongoose + Peedle. This is still not a bad situation for you at all.





How is it a good plan to board out Stifles, which are a crucial part of your mana denial plan, and board in counters that are only good when the opponent is low on mana?

Do you really belive the 4 Disrupt are worth the slots if you're taking out Daze, which has a similar function?
The numbers are the important thing. And those cards are the only thing I dedicate to be boardable.
I also forgot to mention Spell Snares,of which I would swap some for Blasts.

And while you're pretty sure, look that I'm writing about the Needle and not the commonalty.

HBspulse
09-02-2009, 07:25 AM
I still haven't really heard a solid and complete sb strategy vs merfolk. Everybody's saying it's a good matchup, but you don't really seem to agree on the sbstrategy.

I'll try to sum it all together, something like this is what you are saying :

General Strategy :
- Leave stifle in against wasteland and relic
- Don't counter aether vial
- Keep a hand with burn or goyf
- Pithing needle=no good
- Don't board in krosan grip

So card by card strategy :
+3 Red elemental blast
+2 Pyroclasm
-1 Rushing river
-1 Daze
-1 Ponder
-1 Nimble mongoose
-1 Random (Spell snare then?)

You merfolk matchup winners, you agree with this? I'll try it out your suggestions. I'll let you know what this gives.

undone
09-02-2009, 08:02 AM
Uh, boarding out ponder is almost always wrong.

if you have 2 clasm and 3 REB as SB cards I would go

-1 daze
-1 bounce
-1 bounce (if you play two) if not than -1 snare
-2 goose

Goose is pretty bad post board because they have nothing that targets anyway but they do have one large problem for goose (Relic) which is why they arent as good post board.

Personaly I have been told by some rather good players that 0 clasms X lavamancer is the way to go because it helps make all the trible aggro decks even better than if you ran clasm. It also is soposed to be massivly helpful in the ichorid matchup (Yay for suicidal lavamancers!)

Wargoos
09-02-2009, 08:13 AM
Uh, boarding out ponder is almost always wrong.
Naw, it's not.
€dit1:Ok, I'll explain:
Boarding in a card that fulfills a "business"-spell role for a card that is supposed to find you business against that deck isn't that stupid.
But this is of course done not that often.

While lavamancer seems cool (I love that card) I don't think it can fulfill pyroclasms role against tribal.
Lavamancer is topdecked pretty bad and bites with mungo. Also being a 1/1 makes him quite fragile to jitte and he's also bad against opposing relics.
Besides that dredge is such a bad mu that 2 mancer out of the sideboard seems worse than clasm and EE.

Al-ucard
09-02-2009, 08:14 AM
I don't win so many matches against merfolks, it's a hard one. But I have to say that pithing needle has too many targets to say "= no good" and a permanent effect, contrary to stifle:

- Relic of progenitus
- Vial
- Mutavault
- Wasteland

So I think that stifle is not soo good in this MU because they don't have fetchlands and its targets/effects are poor:

- Relic
- Wasteland
- Standstill?

Actually I play this side:

4 Red elemental blast/Pyroblast
4 Submerge
3 Pithing needle
2 Pyroclasm
2 Engineered Explosives

So I think I will do the following or something like this:

+4 Red Elemental blast/Pyroblast
+3 Pithing needle
+2 Pyroclasm

-4 Stifle
-4 Daze
-1 Random card

Al-ucard
09-02-2009, 08:21 AM
So, what do you think about this card?

http://magiccards.info/4e/en/227.html

This morning I was searching for good sideboard cards against merfolks and see it, the problem is to pay the double R, but resolve this card against merfolks is GG.

Wargoos
09-02-2009, 08:35 AM
Oi!
Needle hasn't all that much targets either.
You can't go for Wasteland because you are playing them yourselfes.
Stifle gets this one on the contrary.
Also for Mutavaults you still have you Wastelands, they're just golden here.

Also I never told anyone to dismiss needle, I jus said, that it isn't working for me and that you can pack them if you meta shows lots of Merfolk/Gobs.
But I still think that against anything else it's not worth it.

And whats with this passage?


- Standstill?
Uhm, no you can't stifle Standstill.

Also if you have such problems against merfolk, why don't just run Merfolk Assassins in the sideboard?
Get's pumped by their lords and get's rid of merfolks better than lavamancer does ;p (j/k)

Al-ucard
09-02-2009, 08:46 AM
And whats with this passage?


Uhm, no you can't stifle Standstill.



I know that you can't stifle the sac effect of standstill, but I wonder if the trigger effect when a card is played could be stifled...

Wargoos
09-02-2009, 08:50 AM
I know that you can't stifle the sac effect of standstill, but I wonder if the trigger effect when a card is played could be stifled...

But then you'd play stifle as the spell and the effect would also go on the trigger?
I guess this is a question for the rules thread.

RogueMTG
09-02-2009, 09:06 AM
But then you'd play stifle as the spell and the effect would also go on the trigger?
I guess this is a question for the rules thread.

This is correct, the Standstill will trigger again for the Stifle.

Elf_Ascetic
09-02-2009, 09:12 AM
But then you'd play stifle as the spell and the effect would also go on the trigger?
I guess this is a question for the rules thread.

No, it isn't. Stifle triggers standstill again. Read the card, people...

nitewolf9
09-02-2009, 10:38 AM
If people are looking for a specific hoser card for merfolk in red, which I can't imagine why as this deck is actually pretty good against them (REB in the board? Can you ask for something better?), but anyway why not try out a Spinal Villain or 2?

undone
09-02-2009, 10:54 AM
1) @ whoever said mancer wasnt good: mancer typicaly acts like a shackles only cheep enough to be playable, and the ichorid matchup is actualy bareable if you get goyf+ kill his bridges which mancer does half of.

2) You cant stifle a standstill RTFC

3) Needle is bad its just bad, you need to hit threshold turn 3/4 consistently this card seriously hinders that.

4) I really still dont think boarding out ponder is EVER right, its not as bad is boarding out brainstorms/forces but its still pretty bad.

kabal
09-02-2009, 12:31 PM
3) Needle is bad its just bad

Apparently David Caplan use to not think so. In his primer (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/print.asp?ID=7977), he has the following sideboard with same main board he always runs:


2 Engineered Explosives
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Trygon Predator


Granted new decks become DTB and discovering new cards (submerge) changes your board, but like a few others have already mentioned, Needle is a very good (permanent) answer to problematic cards you will be facing.

Wargoos
09-02-2009, 12:34 PM
This primer is pretty outdatet. David dropped needle as well some time ago.

TrialByFire
09-02-2009, 01:12 PM
This primer is pretty outdatet. David dropped needle as well some time ago.

Yes that Primer was made a month after Lorwyn has come out. Dave Top 8'ed GP Chicago and Gencon WITH THE SAME LIST. Thats something to say and I honestly would not change a thing. If you are losing to Goblins and Merfolk, you don't need Needle, you need to test more and play better.

Cenarius
09-02-2009, 01:15 PM
@EaD (+Undone)

There is so much contradiction in your posts that it because so hard to understand what you mean. Personally I do think that Pithing Needle kicks ass in sideboard of Tempo Threshold. If you cannot get Threshold with a Pithing Needle in your hand, you play the deck incorrect. Pithing Needle really helps you against Merfolk and Goblins since it shut's down the worst card on their board: Aether Vial. With an Aether Vial on their board all of your counters become dead. Apparently you don't understand that, or do you? You cannot simply Force or Daze it, because most of the times you won't have them anymore at a certain point or maybe don't even have them in your starting grip or you are playing on the draw (daze).
Pithing Needle also helps against Survival which is a welcome effect, and also helps against Landstill. Landstill is a pretty bad matchup, no matter what sideboard you play. Improving that matchup is certainly not a bad thing to do.

It's pretty funny how people just ignore arguments etc.

Btw, your comment about: "I give you some months till you realize how suckey Needle is and that playing permanents besides the creature base is not what this deck wants." is complete random since I play the deck when the first primer appeared and started playing it competitively (testing) it since he made the result at the Legacy GP. I know that Pithing Needle is awesome since I have it in my sideboard for over 4 months now.
When people play different sideboards or mainboards doesn't mean that people are in fact noobs (or anything like that) because they don't play the sideboard Goobafish is playing. Those are the people who really think about their sideboard before copying it right from the internet. I played with both Goobafishs' mainboard and sideboard and was not convinced by it.

Thats just my cup of tea.

@ About the merfolk matchup. I'll just dig up my post from sideboarding:

I sideboard:

Merfolk
-4 Stifle
-1 Wasteland
-1 spell snare (with a 3 Peedle Board)
-3 Force Spike (on the draw, on the play you probably keep em in, instead of Needle)
for
+4 Pyroblast
+3 Pithing Needle
+2 Pyroclasm

I just don't understand why all of you want to know how good or bad the matchup is against Merfolk. You can also just scroll back a page to see it for yourself. Everyone has a different opinion on it. I personally think that with this sideboard and my mainboard, my matchup would be positive. However it totally depends on the list of my opponent, his luck and the way you and I play it. When you make mistakes, the matchup is hard. When you play TT correct, you will find out that Merfolk is a positive matchup.
Just never board out Nimble Mongoose. It's probably one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard :D.

@ Al-Ucard

It's nice to see a decent sideboard. However, personally, I think that each TT sideboard should play 1 Krosan Grip. For the rest, it's actually the same as mine and Bahamuth.

goobafish
09-02-2009, 02:02 PM
A few things.

For the record, I think Pithing Needle is a great sideboard card, and I have been trying to find room in my sideboard to fit them in. The reason I am doing this is to combat Top and board-control based Landstill, but definitely not for the Aggro matchups. Actually, after GP Chicago we tested them main over the bounce spells.

Also, the Merfolk matchup is very good for Canadian Threshold, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. If you are loosing in testing, you are doing it wrong. If anyone ever has matchup specific questions, or are having difficulty with a matchup, they can feel free to pm me.

As for different sideboards, I definately encourage people to change around the board that I use. Keep in mind I only play the deck in large American tournaments, and almost never locally. My sideboard is specific to large American Events and what I expect to see there.

nitewolf9
09-02-2009, 02:04 PM
Actually, after GP Chicago we tested them main over the bounce spells.


What did you think? I've been thinking of adding them in the maindeck of TA as well, simply because of how strong it is against top, vial, and relic (which always give me problems).

goobafish
09-02-2009, 02:06 PM
What did you think? I've been thinking of adding them in the maindeck of TA as well, simply because of how strong it is against top, vial, and relic (which always give me problems).

My most extensive testing was against the mirror and other Tempo oriented decks. Team America was popular at the time, as was Eva Green. Needles are dead against all three decks, so we decided not to keep them. Now might be a better time to try them.

Jayzonious
09-02-2009, 10:28 PM
I always thought Pithing Needle fits this deck perfectly. Anyone have thoughts on naming fetch lands with needle in this deck?

jimirynk
09-02-2009, 10:56 PM
My most extensive testing was against the mirror and other Tempo oriented decks. Team America was popular at the time, as was Eva Green. Needles are dead against all three decks, so we decided not to keep them. Now might be a better time to try them.

2 needles are mvp vs. merfolk.

Al-ucard
09-03-2009, 02:05 AM
Playing this deck I realized that the spells most hard to counter are the cc1 ones, because if you are on the play, opponent needs FoW to counter them or if you are on the draw, you can play them with the second mana waiting for daze or force spike.

So you can realize that a card that slows merfolks and its hard to counter its a good card, so it is pithing needle.

The match a TT player resolve a needle naming vial against merfolks is an easy match.

Cenarius
09-03-2009, 04:01 AM
Playing this deck I realized that the spells most hard to counter are the cc1 ones, because if you are on the play, opponent needs FoW to counter them or if you are on the draw, you can play them with the second mana waiting for daze or force spike.

So you can realize that a card that slows merfolks and its hard to counter its a good card, so it is pithing needle.

The match a TT player resolve a needle naming vial against merfolks is an easy match.

Hi Al-Ucard,

Did you also started testing Force Spike in mainboard? What did you think about it? How many do you play?

Al-ucard
09-04-2009, 02:21 AM
Hi Al-Ucard,

Did you also started testing Force Spike in mainboard? What did you think about it? How many do you play?

No, I don't but I know people are playing them so I mention them in my comment...

Maybe is a solution against annoying cc1 cards like path to exile, aether vial, relic of progenitus and so...

undone
09-04-2009, 08:49 AM
@EaD (+Undone)

There is so much contradiction in your posts that it because so hard to understand what you mean. Personally I do think that Pithing Needle kicks ass in sideboard of Tempo Threshold. If you cannot get Threshold with a Pithing Needle in your hand, you play the deck incorrect. Pithing Needle really helps you against Merfolk and Goblins since it shut's down the worst card on their board: Aether Vial. With an Aether Vial on their board all of your counters become dead. Apparently you don't understand that, or do you? You cannot simply Force or Daze it, because most of the times you won't have them anymore at a certain point or maybe don't even have them in your starting grip or you are playing on the draw (daze).
Pithing Needle also helps against Survival which is a welcome effect, and also helps against Landstill. Landstill is a pretty bad matchup, no matter what sideboard you play. Improving that matchup is certainly not a bad thing to do.

It's pretty funny how people just ignore arguments etc.

Btw, your comment about: "I give you some months till you realize how suckey Needle is and that playing permanents besides the creature base is not what this deck wants." is complete random since I play the deck when the first primer appeared and started playing it competitively (testing) it since he made the result at the Legacy GP. I know that Pithing Needle is awesome since I have it in my sideboard for over 4 months now.
When people play different sideboards or mainboards doesn't mean that people are in fact noobs (or anything like that) because they don't play the sideboard Goobafish is playing. Those are the people who really think about their sideboard before copying it right from the internet. I played with both Goobafishs' mainboard and sideboard and was not convinced by it.

Thats just my cup of tea.

@ About the merfolk matchup. I'll just dig up my post from sideboarding:

I sideboard:

Merfolk
-4 Stifle
-1 Wasteland
-1 spell snare (with a 3 Peedle Board)
-3 Force Spike (on the draw, on the play you probably keep em in, instead of Needle)
for
+4 Pyroblast
+3 Pithing Needle
+2 Pyroclasm

I just don't understand why all of you want to know how good or bad the matchup is against Merfolk. You can also just scroll back a page to see it for yourself. Everyone has a different opinion on it. I personally think that with this sideboard and my mainboard, my matchup would be positive. However it totally depends on the list of my opponent, his luck and the way you and I play it. When you make mistakes, the matchup is hard. When you play TT correct, you will find out that Merfolk is a positive matchup.
Just never board out Nimble Mongoose. It's probably one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard :D.

@ Al-Ucard

It's nice to see a decent sideboard. However, personally, I think that each TT sideboard should play 1 Krosan Grip. For the rest, it's actually the same as mine and Bahamuth.

Ok, lets respond in order

1) Vial in the folk matchup.

You

Dont

Care

Period

You simply ignore vial and let them start with -1 cards in hand, you use snares on standstills (Jitti? potentialy) and forces/dazes on forces. You save bolts and fires for lords and you push a goyf through as they cant beat it the majority of the time.

Vial is not a card you should be super scared of in the matchup, that card is LoA (as it simply wrecks the entire deck if you have noburn) I am always happy to see a folk player drawing vials even on turn 1 it means

1) No curse catcher T1
2) I can fetch freely
3) my opponent has 1 less card starting than I do.

Vial is however great for goblins in the goblins matchup because aquardly thier creatures are more setup to abuse the card (see ringleader/SGC/Matron) I dont see this as a real problem though because the goblins matchup is so rediculously good (post board especialy) that it shouldnt be an issue.

Next, I really like grip as a 2 of and predator as a 2 of they make so many matchups miles better.

Atog
09-04-2009, 09:09 AM
I have get some problems with goblins, so i want to make sure i play right against them. Here is couple things what i would want confirm:

1) We want open hand where we have force or daze when draw, yes? For vial, lackey could resolve if we have bolt or fire when played first.

2) Don't stifle fetches unless you are sure that will screw opponent mana totally, safe for ringleader/matron/sgc.

3) Safe burn for piledriver, lords and lackey.

Did i list all important things or did i miss something?

Wargoos
09-04-2009, 09:32 AM
Guess I have to be a scrub winning against survival and merfolk witout needle in my board ;(


1) We want open hand where we have force or daze when draw, yes? For vial, lackey could resolve if we have bolt or fire when played first.
Right. You need a hand with force / ee + bolt if you're convinced your opponent has Vial or lackey.


2) Don't stifle fetches unless you are sure that will screw opponent mana totally, safe for ringleader/matron/sgc.
That's right as well since ringleader generating ca will win them the game if don't do anything against it.


3) Safe burn for piledriver, lords and lackey.
Piledriver alone won't do anything to you. Watch out for warchiefs (now even lords)

However this get's a lot easier if you can put some goyf on the table.

Problem is just that once you could manage them to get out of gas you shouldn't get careless since gobs have some strong topdecks. Every card they draw (besides piledriver), could give you a hard time again , especially matron and ringleader.
Goblins is in my opinion a lot harder of a mu for us than merfolk.

Atog
09-04-2009, 09:47 AM
Problem is just that once you could manage them to get out of gas you shouldn't get careless since gobs have some strong topdecks. Every card they draw (besides piledriver), could give you a hard time again , especially matron and ringleader.
Goblins is in my opinion a lot harder of a mu for us than merfolk.

I think so too. Reb/pyro and burn generally is sooo good against merfolks and they don't run ringleader. Standstill is quite much easier to counter and won't create that much advantage for them.

If you are facing monoblack or b-w do you side in disrupts? Dazes are better against sinkhole / vindicate (suprise) at least, but disrupt could be good as well. Against monoblack we could side in disrupts because there isn't necessary enought targets for stifles? They could run some fetches and wasteland but disrupts could be better still than stifle?

Elf_Ascetic
09-04-2009, 10:04 AM
I can't agree on the strategy this deck has against Goblins, that EaD is stating here. Or at least, a part of it.

You want to stifle Goblin's fetches. The matchup is a pretty strange one. TT is the agrodeck here, and Goblins the control. In lategame, Goblins will win. Pretty much logic, since goblins has the most expensive but superiour cards. Lategame, you have so many dead cards: Daze, Spell Snare, maybe Force Spike or V. Clique, yes, even Stifle sucks when the Goblin player reaches 6 lands. The only way you can win (next to dropping 3 Goyfs and just eat him alive) is to keep aplying pressure, make sure he can't start dropping ringleaders, etc. Note that Stifle on a fetch + Daze on the Ringleader is so much better then Stifling the ringleader, en sitting with a useless Daze in hand. Stifling fetches is essential in winning this matchup.

Wargoos
09-04-2009, 10:22 AM
You want to stifle Goblin's fetches. The matchup is a pretty strange one. TT is the agrodeck here, and Goblins the control. In lategame, Goblins will win. Pretty much logic, since goblins has the most expensive but superiour cards. Lategame, you have so many dead cards: Daze, Spell Snare, maybe Force Spike or V. Clique, yes, even Stifle sucks when the Goblin player reaches 6 lands. The only way you can win (next to dropping 3 Goyfs and just eat him alive) is to keep aplying pressure, make sure he can't start dropping ringleaders, etc. Note that Stifle on a fetch + Daze on the Ringleader is so much better then Stifling the ringleader, en sitting with a useless Daze in hand. Stifling fetches is essential in winning this matchup.


2) Don't stifle fetches unless you are sure that will screw opponent mana totally, safe for ringleader/matron/sgc.

That was the premise for my statements.
If you can screw him over, seeing him sittin on no lands besides a fetch. Do it.
If you however are sitting before an Aether Vial , 2 Mountains and he cracks a fetch with you having stifle in hand - don't do it.
You just don't.
Against talented and experienced goblin players (I know there aren't that much of them outside) you won't be able to go for the screw plan, just because you will be missing the stifle or because the opponent will drop basics.

What will you do if your screwplan failed and you have to proceed with the goblinplayer getting a stable manabase?
Scooping?
Naw, you preferably look for the points Atog stated with which I agreed mostly.

@Atog: Well against suicidish decks I board in the disrupts since you hit like 60% of their spells with it. Out goes a stifle, some dazes and a FI. On the play the former aren't that great anymore but you keep some stifles to be able to protect your manabase from some wastelands.
Dazes get weak as well, so that I opt to find room in that slot as well, since Disrupts functions the same way you still get an advantage out of the opponent being screwed. And since they usually have Goyfs or Tombstalkers FI isn't that good as well and needs to make some space.
But since you can usually expect some shades and confidants FI isn't all to bad here either and you can leave some in. If I see green I tend to board submerges as well so that bouncing tombstalkers gets more fun.
As I stated before I don't have an actual boardingplan which cards I swap for others - just some strategies of which cards I think I could get the most advantages of.
Anyways. Suicide-decks aren't that hard of a MU. Spell Snare is just so good in here, and mungo isn't bad as well; also that canadian can run off of 1 land is a good thing as well, because it makes you insusceptible against their gameplan.

€dit: Oh, and no hard feelings guys. I'm also playing this deck for quite a long time, although with some breaks and most points I state come from experiences and evolve into strategies I feel most comfortable with. But those are just my opinions and I don't force anyone to think as well as I do, if you disagree, give me some reasons which don't start with "WRONG!!!!111!!" because I won't listen to you at this point anymore.

undone
09-09-2009, 08:35 AM
New fetches are fun we can make our manabase even more singleton.

Volrath
09-09-2009, 08:40 AM
Hi Al-Ucard,

Did you also started testing Force Spike in mainboard? What did you think about it? How many do you play?

Try Disrupt, it kicks ass.

Cenarius
09-09-2009, 08:51 AM
Volrath, I was talking about mainboard not sideboard. Disrupt is not as good as Force Spike in Mainboard since it cannot counter creatures, artifact's (nearly most important), enchantments, planeswalkers etc.