[Deck] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

[Manipulato]

Hi @ all,
tomorrow I will play the GPT Paris in Munich and I will play the following list:

RUG Delver
Mainboard: 60 Cards

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
1True-Name Nemesis

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt

3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard: 15 Cards

3 Rough//Tumble
2 Submerge
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Flusterstorm
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Sulfur Elemental

With the latest rise of Jund in the meta I will try the TNN version of the deck with 1 MB and 1 SB and play the full 3 Roughs in the SB to hate Elves, D n`T, Maverick and such decks. Only 2 Submerges because I never needed more than 2 in the past and I think with 2 TNN and 2 Snares after boarding its enough against opposing Goyfs because I can break through they`re defense or counter them OR remove them, so. 2 Cages-> Never without, sick loosing to Dredge (especially Manaless Dredge) and it`s good against elves & Reanimator too.
We will see how it goes, I will let you all know at Sunday :smile: Cross your fingers for me :wink:

Greetings

[sawatarix]

I would run your list with 3-4 Pyroblasts,they are insane right now in a format full of Tnn and jaces.

2-2 Split between Snare and Pierce huh?
I always used to play the full set of snares ,unless the meta is 70% dominated by sneakshow decks.
You focus with these 2 counters on different mus:
pierce against combo/control.
snare against control/aggro/midrange.

canadians worse mu are definately midrange decks like jund,maverick and bant in comparison to sneakshow or miracles.
Therefore i would focus on these decks preboard.

I usually run german ******** (also called Burg Tempo here) in our local tournaments here in berlin,but this year i'll give my canadian a comeback after a couple of months.
See how it goes tomorrow, pretty excited.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Sasan]

Hi @ all,
tomorrow I will play the GPT Paris in Munich and I will play the following list:

RUG Delver
Mainboard: 60 Cards

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
1True-Name Nemesis

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt

3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard: 15 Cards

3 Rough//Tumble
2 Submerge
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Flusterstorm
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Sulfur Elemental

With the latest rise of Jund in the meta I will try the TNN version of the deck with 1 MB and 1 SB and play the full 3 Roughs in the SB to hate Elves, D n`T, Maverick and such decks. Only 2 Submerges because I never needed more than 2 in the past and I think with 2 TNN and 2 Snares after boarding its enough against opposing Goyfs because I can break through they`re defense or counter them OR remove them, so. 2 Cages-> Never without, sick loosing to Dredge (especially Manaless Dredge) and it`s good against elves & Reanimator too.
We will see how it goes, I will let you all know at Sunday :smile: Cross your fingers for me :wink:

Greetings

Fingers are cossed.

One advice: Play one Rough/Tumble main deck instead of Forked Bolt. It is huge and you will thank me after your tournament for that :D Also play one more Pyroblast in the SB. Play one less Pierce and one more Snare.

[Sasan]

I would run your list with 3-4 Pyroblasts,they are insane right now in a format full of Tnn and jaces.

2-2 Split between Snare and Pierce huh?
I always used to play the full set of snares ,unless the meta is 70% dominated by sneakshow decks.
You focus with these 2 counters on different mus:
pierce against combo/control.
snare against control/aggro/midrange.

canadians worse mu are definately midrange decks like jund,maverick and bant in comparison to sneakshow or miracles.
Therefore i would focus on these decks preboard.

I usually run german ******** (also called Burg Tempo here) in our local tournaments here in berlin,but this year i'll give my canadian a comeback after a couple of months.
See how it goes tomorrow, pretty excited.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

Good but do not leave the bUrg deck :D

[sawatarix]

I play both Decks, but German ***** is my favourite for sure.

Sometimes i just need the brutal power of goyf instead of the game controling deathrite shaman.
I get the Foil Tarmogoyf Playset tomorrow so, i have to play RUG :D


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Manipulato]

Fingers are cossed.

One advice: Play one Rough/Tumble main deck instead of Forked Bolt. It is huge and you will thank me after your tournament for that :D Also play one more Pyroblast in the SB. Play one less Pierce and one more Snare.

A Rough//Tumble main? I buy it :smile:
Ther 3rd REB/Pyroblast in the side is ok for me but the 3 Snare 2 Pierce splitt, hmmm I dont know...I love Snare but I like keeping my creatures on board and pushing them forward against removal too + snare is a quite dead card against show and tell decks and pierce is also more useful against storm combo (which are played a lot if you check the meta at Hanau last weekend).

List looks now like that:

Mainboard: 60 Cards

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
1True-Name Nemesis
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Rough//Tumble
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard: 15 Cards
2 Rough//Tumble
2 Submerge
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Flusterstorm
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Pyroblast

[sawatarix]

I actually don't like the combination of TNN and Rough together in the maindeck.
Is TNN that good in the maindeck?In my experience not really.
Guess it's supposed to stay in the sideboard and gets only boardet in against jund,shardless bug and bladedecks.
Against the half of the meta TNN doesn't do anything(i'm talking about combo decks ladies and gents),so i would run 4 Tarmogoyfs main or rather a Green Sun's Zenith or Sylvan Library in that slot,the latest is my favourite one.
But that is up to your preverences :)



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Sasan]

I actually don't like the combination of TNN and Rough together in the maindeck.
Is TNN that good in the maindeck?In my experience not really.
Guess it's supposed to stay in the sideboard and gets only boardet in against jund,shardless bug and bladedecks.
Against the half of the meta TNN doesn't do anything(i'm talking about combo decks ladies and gents),so i would run 4 Tarmogoyfs main or rather a Green Sun's Zenith or Sylvan Library in that slot,the latest is my favourite one.
But that is up to your preverences :)



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

Clique is better than TNN in RUG Delver. It flies over opposing TNNs and grabs the equipment away before TNN gets equipped. That is why Clique is awesome. It has no anti synergy with Rough.

A one-off Rough and one-off TNN is however not very often a problem as you will not have both in most games. but yeah Clique reigns supreme.

Or Sylvan Library. Certainly better than the fourth Goyf.

[Exuberance]

Hi Poxy, I'm glad that you like the deck, just note that it wasn't only me who thought about Tarfires.
I think I gonna try them.
I don't like Snareless builds for reason known. And I like four Mongooses, althought they are slow, because they are really hard to remove. I guess I may try something like this:

List:
//Qty Name
// Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
//\\
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
//\\
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
3 Tarfire
//\\
// Sideboard
2 Rough // Tumble
3 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Life from the Loam
2 Grafdigger's Cage


I used a 75 very similar to this to top 8 a SCG Open; the main differences were 2 Forked Bolt and 1 Chain Lightning instead of Tarfires, and a couple different choices in the board. I like your list a lot but I'm a little wary of playing three Tarfires. I might swap my Chain Lightning for one tho.

[Purgatory]

Has anyone experimented with Artifact Mutation in the RUG board? Sure, it's harder to force through countermagic than Ancient Grudge, but it also has the upside of being infi value vs. Batterskull, and pretty good value vs other pieces of equipment.

I noticed the bUrg players run a split of Artifact Mutation and Ancient Grudge, and remembered I had a playset of them in an old binder. I think I'll take one of them for a spin, but I just wondered if anyone else had done so.

[trollking21]

Has anyone experimented with Artifact Mutation in the RUG board? Sure, it's harder to force through countermagic than Ancient Grudge, but it also has the upside of being infi value vs. Batterskull, and pretty good value vs other pieces of equipment.

I noticed the bUrg players run a split of Artifact Mutation and Ancient Grudge, and remembered I had a playset of them in an old binder. I think I'll take one of them for a spin, but I just wondered if anyone else had done so.

Generally like getting the 2 for 1 off of grudge, but this seems like a sweet way to close out a game unexpectedly. Against anything with batterskull if you can get it to resolve you probably win as 5 flash power is a lot. Against jitte or sword it's still 2 or 3 power respectively. Against vial, top, every card in painter and the occasional affinity I would rather have grudge however.

Seems like sweet tech I may try it out as well.

[sawatarix]

In such a stoneblade meta i highly recommand 2 pieces of artifact hate in the sideboard,especially in rug with no cards in the mainboard to remove artifacts.

Nearly one year ago the combination of 1 Ancient Grudge and 1 Krosan Grip was very popular in the sb.The second one to fight counterbalance and sneakattack.

In my opinion 3cc for just a naturalize is way to expensive now.
1 or 2 mana should be spent to cast such a card.
I tested 2 grudges in Rug but you don't really need that many artifact-destruction spells(esp. With flashback).
often the game ends after one jitte or batterskull gets destroyed and a final attack.
So my friends and i pondered about alternatives with other value and there came 2 cards in mind:
Artifact Mutation and destructive revelry.
Now it is up to you what you prefer.
i decided to run 1 mutation and it felt really good so far in the testings against esperblade and Patriot.




- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[BlueP.]

Tested Destructive Revelry in multiple local tournaments, instead of 2 Grudges. They were incredibly good in this context. I even won a game on the spot with the 2 damage, otherwise I would have been crushed. I don't remember all the targets but it helped me to win through cards which NEED an answer (the usual stuff):

- Choke (a.k.a "how to mess with the SB plan against Maverick")
- Rest in Peace
- Chalice of the Void
- Blood Moon

It did the usual work against BS and Vial but Grudge there is better, especially in the Esper MU.
I didn't remember complaining about the casting cost of the card, I was able to play it any time. It could happen though. What I like about the card is that it allows me to keep counterspells : I feel relieved when I didn't have to 2 for 1 with FoW against Patriot with RIP.
One other thing to take into account : opponents aren't used to the card. That means they sometimes slow down their pressure in order to play cards that are lethal to Canadian, without considering an 2 mana Instant spell able to answer them. Some games it felt like a Time Walk effect (all things being relative of course).

All in all, even if I value the "split second" ability of Krosan Grip against Esper and Miracles, I was desperately trying to find an artifact/enchant hate card easier to cast : Destructive Revelry does the job.

However I still think that including K-Grip, Grudge or D. Revelry depends on your sideboarding plan. I use Revelry as a generic card against artifacts while still being able to respond answer gamebreaking enchantments, It isn't used as a specific answer to specific MU's, like I did with K-Grip when my meta was full of Miracles. Even if I might come back to Grudges with more testing, it is indeed an effective card quite relevant in the Canadian shell.

[Manipulato]

Hey folks,
today I played the GPT in Munich with the list on the last 2 pages.
We were 31 player and played 5 rounds.
I went in 12th place with a 3:2 :rolleyes:

My MUs were as follow:

Round 1: Nice guy with Imperial Painter.
I won 2:1

Round 2: BGW Junk
Here I lost 0:2 after a mistake I think? He had played SFM and I stifled it and 1 turn later he sneaked Batterskull into play because he had him in his starting hand :rolleyes: I had double delver flipped on board but the batterskull got him back a lot of life...I should have let it resolve and later trigger the living weapon trigger but who could know that he have batterskull + Jitte in his opening hand already...

Round 3: Punishing Jund
Here I won 2:1 in the times with stifling a ooze trigger and attacking with deadly 3 damage on 3 life.

Round 4: UWR Delver
Here I lost 1:2 in a really close game. I have handled all his SFM and RIPes etc but in every fucking game he had TNN (exept for G1 which I won) and me no Blast, Daze or FoW !?! :cry:
I forgot in G2 to board out the 1off Rough because normally I played a Forked Bolt in that slot and leave them in and when he played RIP I had rough in hand and had to Brainstorm in response and found a FoW to counter RIP (If I had not forgotten to board out that Rough it would have been a Pierce or Stifle which allowed me to keep the FoW for his TNN 1 turn later) :mad: Just sloppy boarding error from me, will never happen again! If I had not made that mistake I were 3:1 and could draw into Top 8 :cry:
I had enough pressure on the bord until TNN resolved and a opponent at 7-8 life, but my Goyf got infinite blocked and delver got sworded or my double Mongooses cant break through. ..
All in all really close games!

Round 5: Mono white Staxx
Here I won 2:0 easily with 1st turn delver and daze, waste, Pierce, FoW backup for his lockpieces...

The 1off TNN MD and SB were absolutley worse! Immediatley get cutted and put back the 4th Goyf! Everytime I drew him I couldnt cast him because I had only 2 lands or he became Golgari charmed!
The 1off Rough//Tumble were very good! Keep them in for sure! Nobody expected it G1 and he destroyed DS+Bloodbraid Elf, 2 Lavamancer+1Delver, SFM+DS and so on, thanks Sasan! :smile:
Spell Snare was super good too! I will play a 3rd copy in the SB!

I'm a bit dissapointed for not making Top 8 but I gave my best and it was all really close.
+ I were the best in our group :laugh:
Greetings

[Bed Decks Palyer]

A little off topic: I wnet nuts today and moved towards the ultimate goal of ultimate Thresh Pimp... :-)

I like the Artifact Mutation tech and I like the reasoning for both Grudge and Revelry. I guess that KGrip's utility in control-heavy mets is known, yo es, this is all about field, game style/plan and such.

Manipulato: thanks for report, sry for the not-hot result. :(

On the Rough main - I'm quite liking the idea, but I'd definitely stay away from the combination of Roguh and TNN No matter how unlikely they are to meet, it's still a major pain and I simply dislike TNN's restrictive cost that I'll decide I'd never touch it, unless the price collapses.
I guess I can take out one Tarfire for Rough to have a bit more positive g1 matchup against Elves and DnT; I don't think that the Tarfires' Goyf-pumpin' ability will be that needed, so I think that the correct choice is either one Rough plus two Forked Bolts (for maximum flexibility) or simply three Tarfires (for full power). Idk... Testing will show.

Btw,I was lazy to go tourneying on Thu, so no reports from me for at least a fortnight.

[sawatarix]

Stifling the Living Weapon is always the right play,because you force your opponent to tap 2 mana two times for nothing -> many timewalks for a quick delver or goyfkill.

Are there any Players who play a list with only 10 or 11 creatures?
I would be interesting in such a list ,how it looks like and how it performs.



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[rlesko]

Has anyone tried playing less than 4 stifles in probe-less builds? I feel like I'm going to replace probes but not go back up to 4 stifles. Not sure why this has not been done before?

[Manipulato]

Stifling the Living Weapon is always the right play,because you force your opponent to tap 2 mana two times for nothing -> many timewalks for a quick delver or goyfkill.

Are there any Players who play a list with only 10 or 11 creatures?
I would be interesting in such a list ,how it looks like and how it performs.



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

Yeah for sure, but he played the SFM at 3rd turn and who could know that he had Batterskull + Jitte in his opening 7?
Plus he had with junk no library manipulation or card draw available to dig for it...
But yeah I should have let it resolve and steal him mana +time! Will never make that error again!
The turney was a good training for me and maybe it will be better at Paris :smile:

Greetings

[Sasan]

I enjoy that you all like my secret tech of Rough main deck :-)

When you look at the fact that many RUG players have started playing Fire/Ice again there is no reason not to play Rough over Fire/Ice. Same mana costs but real real more game breaking for the opponent. The Ice option is nice versus combo but we already have a good
combo MU. We must have a blowout card versus midrange - our hard matchups - and that is Rough.

Rough + 2-3 Spell Snares MD + 2 Roughs and 2 Submerge in the SB = blowout versus all kinds of midrange decks.

For reference that is my most current built:

Deck: Sasans Canadian.dec

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:11
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf

Spells:31
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
1 Rough // Tumble
1 Sylvan Library
1 Dismember
4 Force of Will

Lands:18
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Artifact Mutation
1 Life from the Loam
1 Rough // Tumble
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Submerge
2 Golgari Charm
1 Underground Sea

I ignored the Dredge MU because in a tournament you will not play versus that fringe deck or only have one game versus them. Dedicating 2 Slots for that is not a good deal. Especially when 2 Cages only give you a win versus Dredge if you have luck and good mulligans. That is not worth it. You will have a good tournament if you win all games except one versus Dredge.

The GSZ is Mongoose number 5 and wins versus Jund and control in a heartbeat :)

3 Slots in the SB are another secret tech and guess what: It works. I think you know which slots I mean ;)

[Manipulato]

A little off topic: I wnet nuts today and moved towards the ultimate goal of ultimate Thresh Pimp... :-)

I like the Artifact Mutation tech and I like the reasoning for both Grudge and Revelry. I guess that KGrip's utility in control-heavy mets is known, yo es, this is all about field, game style/plan and such.

Manipulato: thanks for report, sry for the not-hot result. :(

On the Rough main - I'm quite liking the idea, but I'd definitely stay away from the combination of Roguh and TNN No matter how unlikely they are to meet, it's still a major pain and I simply dislike TNN's restrictive cost that I'll decide I'd never touch it, unless the price collapses.
I guess I can take out one Tarfire for Rough to have a bit more positive g1 matchup against Elves and DnT; I don't think that the Tarfires' Goyf-pumpin' ability will be that needed, so I think that the correct choice is either one Rough plus two Forked Bolts (for maximum flexibility) or simply three Tarfires (for full power). Idk... Testing will show.

Btw,I was lazy to go tourneying on Thu, so no reports from me for at least a fortnight.

How I said, the TNN MB & SB got Immediatley got cutted because 3 mana was too much and I never could cast him where a goyf would went to town + people are to much prepared for it!
The Rough was just BONKERS! And Snare performed very well too!

Lists looks now like that:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
4 FoW
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce (Still like the 3:2 Splitt because Pierce saved my creatures a lot! )
2 Spell Snare (Super nice card, 3rd copie in the SB for sure)
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Rough//Tumble (BONKERS, nough said :wink:)

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:

2 Submerge (Quite dissapointed by them but needed for Jund/Mirror)
2 REB (Added the 1 Pyroblast again because TNN is a BITCH)
2 Ancient Grudge (Super good with the value flashback)
2 Flusterstorm (More counters are needed against Storm combo & S&T decks?
2 Grafdiggers Cage (Super flexible against Elves, Dredge, Reanimator)
2 Rough//Tumble ( No comment, just BONKERS)
1 Sulfur Elemental (A flex slot but great against DnT & Maverick)
1 Pyroblast ((like I said above)
1 Spell Snare (Performed just very good at each opponent! Also good against Goyf)

[sawatarix]

So well,Gp Paris is only in a few weeks.
I'm gonna prepare for it and one thing i'll definately run is Golgari Charm in my Sideboard to handle TNN even if it entered the battlefield already.

"Ok Kai simply play Burg with 2 Charms in your Sideboard" you might say.
But there is another Deck that can use Charms: RUG with an Underground Sea.

For Explanation:
It is Canadian ******** with 2 Golgari Charms in the Sideboard.
Therefore we need 1-2 Underground Seas in the main or in the sideboard.
If we play them in the mainboard,they are preboard just like islands,which are not that great.
On the other hand we can economize sideboardslots.I'm personally not a big fan of having lands in my sideboard.

The overall question is:
Is RUG with Charms better than Burg,if they both play Charms?
Or simplier:Are 3Deathrite better than 3 Tarmogoyfs?(because the rest of both decks are nearly the same right now)

Your opinions on that topic are required :-)


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Sasan]

So well,Gp Paris is only in a few weeks.
I'm gonna prepare for it and one thing i'll definately run is Golgari Charm in my Sideboard to handle TNN even if it entered the battlefield already.

"Ok Kai simply play Burg with 2 Charms in your Sideboard" you might say.
But there is another Deck that can use Charms: RUG with an Underground Sea.

For Explanation:
It is Canadian ******** with 2 Golgari Charms in the Sideboard.
Therefore we need 1-2 Underground Seas in the main or in the sideboard.
If we play them in the mainboard,they are preboard just like islands,which are not that great.
On the other hand we can economize sideboardslots.I'm personally not a big fan of having lands in my sideboard.

The overall question is:
Is RUG with Charms better than Burg,if they both play Charms?
Or simplier:Are 3Deathrite better than 3 Tarmogoyfs?(because the rest of both decks are nearly the same right now)

Your opinions on that topic are required :-)


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

Did Not You See my list above?

It is exactly the same idea.

Loam is a virtual second Usea

[sawatarix]

I saw it and now i'm not sure which deck design might be better now


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Manipulato]

Did Not You See my list above?

It is exactly the same idea.

Loam is a virtual second Usea

Very interesting idea! I like your secret techs Sasan :smile:
After my lost match yesterday against TNN twice I will think about that tech for sure.
What do you board out for the Sea/loam? A land or a nonland card?

Greetings

[Quasim0ff]

Very interesting idea! I like your secret techs Sasan :smile:
After my lost match yesterday against TNN twice I will think about that tech for sure.
What do you board out for the Sea/loam? A land or a nonland card?

Greetings

I would actually argue that going to 19 lands isn't as bad, as most TNN decks themselves are tempo, and you gain a huge advantage by having +1 in your deck, as some of their plan gets sidestepped.

[Sasan]

I would actually argue that going to 19 lands isn't as bad, as most TNN decks themselves are tempo, and you gain a huge advantage by having +1 in your deck, as some of their plan gets sidestepped.

Yes I would always board in the 19th land versus the mirror, too. Having more land wins games. That is why Usea is not only for the TNN MUs. It is also versus DnT and Mirrors.

My boarding plan versus Patriot and TNN Blade decks according to my list:

OTP: - 1 Dismember - 1 Snare - 1 Stifle - 2 Daze - 2 Force -1 Goyf - 1 Library + 2 Charm + 2 REB + 1 Usea + 1 Loam + 2 Anti-Artifact card + 1 Clique

OtD: - 2 Force - 1 Stifle - 4 Daze -1 Goyf - 1 Counterspell + 2 Charm + 2 REB + 1 Usea + 1 Loam + 2 Anti-Artifact card + 1 Clique


After boarding we have soo much good stuff versus them. We cannot lose after boarding.

We have sooo much answers versus equipment (Clique, Grudge, Mutation, Snares) and TNN (Rebs and Charms) and Bolts/Dismember for their Delvers (in the Patriot MU). With Library and at least 2 Forces as backups we have an overloads of answers.

[sawatarix]

"We cannot lose after boarding" wow,sounds kinda overhyped and to optimistic, but nevertheless the boarding strategy is pretty solid.
Thumbs up !

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/06/7y2age3u.jpg


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Sasan]

"We cannot lose after boarding" wow,sounds kinda overhyped and to optimistic, but nevertheless the boarding strategy is pretty solid.
Thumbs up !

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/06/7y2age3u.jpg


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

I want to be optimistic in these times where many players leave RUG for Patriot :) But if we are honest the MU is around only 55-60 % in our favor after boarding. But yes that is enough for me to be happy ;)

[poxy14]

4-2 (11th place) RUG DELVER
Legacy Wars XIII (wasnt sure yet with the count...around 30-40 players), missing the TOP 8 with a lower tiebreak.
(grats to my team8s kitz-4th (monou-omni), wilson-5th (elves) and renz-9th (bugtempo), a good start indeed for TEAMBUDGET, although we fell short, we managed to insert ourselves in the top 16.

4 force of will
4 stifle
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 daze
3 spell pierce
4 lightning bolt
2 tarfire
1 f/ice

4 delver of secrets
3 nimble mongoose
4 tarmogoyf
1 true name nemesis

3 wooded foothills
2 scalding tarn
1 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
3 tropical island
3 volcanic island
4 wasteland

SB:
1 vendilion clique
1 ancient grudge
1 destructive revelry
2 rough/tumble
2 grafdigger's cage
3 submerge
2 REB
1 pyroblast
2 pithing needle

SB changes from my previous SB - 1 snare, - 1 ancient grudge, -1 surgical extraction / + 1 destructive revelry, 1 ptithing needle, 1 grafdiggers cage
i saw many uwr tnn.decs and miracles before the start for the mentioned SB adjustments....

R1 (0-2) vs ANT
misread his deck as he was a long time tempo player...kept a counter light hand with 2delvers and some burn that didnt helped me when he combo's off.. game 2 i wasnt able to draw sufficient lands to support my counters, by the time i put in a clock vs him...that was it.

R2 (1-2) vs BNW tokens
managed to win game1, via stifle/waste...game 2 was horrible i wasnt able to draw any creature, game 3 when i boarded back in dazes vs lingering souls...none of them showed up! i was able to slow him up...pithing needle on polluted delta (he uses 4) and kept him at 2 lands for a long period of time, until he draws his basics..delvers showed up, but i was just wasnt able to protect them and even 3 pierce md wasnt enough.

R3 (2-1) vs BANT TNN
game1 i was able to cut him off impt colors to slow him down, boarded in 3 reb effects as i was anticipating tnns...then kotrs landed and had no answer when i didnt include in the submerges. game 3 was a bit grindy but the inclusion of the submerges here, really helped. a resolved TNN on my opponents battlefield slowed my 2 goyfs until i draw the TARFIRE, making it 5/6, landed another goyf..i over committed on this part, he drew a noble hierarch and at down to 6 where he can block my 2 goyfs, he would still be at 1 on his turn...i drew a submerge targeting the noble for lethal...his next card would be SUPREME VERDICT.

R4 (2-0) vs ELVES
OTP played a one-lander...flooded strand/daze/daze/bolt/bolt/delver/ponder.....delver home run!. game 2 i managed to draw an early graf, after the game he showed me 2 natural orders, 2 GSZ that was blanked by the cage...Rough on the middle part of the game sealed it off as i had 2 "tarfire-pumped" goyfs on the field.

R5 (2-0) vs UG Infect
7 burn spells made me confident vs this deck...burned everything at EoT, so he cant go off on his attack phase or made him use his pumps just to protect his crits when he cant attack..countered 2 needles naming wastelands on game2 was the key.

R6 (2-0) vs BANT TNN
grindy game 1 as we fought for every creature to put in the board..i managed to sneak in a lone threshed goose and that was it, by the time he landed a TNN and nearing lethal, i managed to draw additional threats. game 2 he mulled at 6 OTP, windswept-trops-gsz-dryad....i wasted the trop and praying that it was his only land...on his turn he attacked and passed and knew that was it. tarfired the dryad and from there i managed to control the board. ancient grudge helped alot by destroying a resolved relic and a jitte afterwards.

Glad i went on a streak after a horrible start. Ater round 2 when im 0-2, i really had nothing to lose except experience if i quit. sleeving up burn heavy RUG helped me on this tourney, i just wasnt expecting lingering souls anymore and benched my sulfurs. won several packs and had a good dinner before home with some friends. Was indeed very happy with my current list. I saw 1 RUG in the top8 being crushed by UWR patriot...hate seeing a fellow RUG facing multiple TNNs, can't afford to finish the game and decided to go. thanks guys for reading! GO TEAMBUDGET!

[BlueP.]

Congrats for the tournament. Pleased to see that you defeated Bant.
I tried the 1 Rough // Tumble in my main. It-was-absolutely-wonderful. Played against DnT, ANT, Jund, Lands, Elves. Except for ANT and Lands, the card made my day. Thanks so much for the tip : simple but efficient.

[Juice11]

Just curious about why you played tarfire over chain lightning or forked bolt? is it just because it's an instant instead of sorcery or is there something else? Thanks.

[BlueP.]

Just curious about why you played tarfire over chain lightning or forked bolt? is it just because it's an instant instead of sorcery or is there something else? Thanks.

It's also a tribal spell, that pumps Tarmogoyf.

[poxy14]

It's also a tribal spell, that pumps Tarmogoyf.

+ 1

[trollking21]

Just curious about why you played tarfire over chain lightning or forked bolt? is it just because it's an instant instead of sorcery or is there something else? Thanks.

Each burn spell offers marginal utility that the others don't. Chain lightning is good for the slight amount of extra reach, forked bolt is good at smacking X/1 and getting in for 1 extra point of damage.(killing 2 dudes rarely happens but is straight awesome) tar fire makes a goyf bigger.
It's a metagame thing. Personally I'm on forked bolt. It's awesome versus else and death and taxes while being able to dome people late game for extra reach.

[sawatarix]

I like tarfire the most because there are not that many other tarmogoyfdecks out there due to True Name Nemesis,so our opponent does not profit from tarfire and we get
Big goyfs which is 3-6 extra damage if you count all the attacks.
I also like the fact that it does not get dismembered anymore


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Sasan]

Congrats for the tournament. Pleased to see that you defeated Bant.
I tried the 1 Rough // Tumble in my main. It-was-absolutely-wonderful. Played against DnT, ANT, Jund, Lands, Elves. Except for ANT and Lands, the card made my day. Thanks so much for the tip : simple but efficient.

Versus Ant Rough is great, too as it stops the EtW kill :) Glad you liked my suggestion :-P

[Akinos]

Tarfire also has the advantage to be an instant speed wich is far better than a sorcery speed in a deck who want to have a maximum flexibility in keeping mana up for Snare / Pierce / Stifle / Brainstorm / Bolt / Whatever...
What can't you kill with Tarfire that you can kill with Chain? Wild Nacatl, Kird Ape... Ok, so Zoo may be your main reason to play Chain over Tarfire.

Sorry for my bad english... ^^'

[sawatarix]

Maybe loadstonegolem as well but,whoon earth plays such creatures ?
Instant >>Sorcery here,especially in a Equipment Meta !!


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I just wish to add only one thing: I'm glad that RUG thread is so alive! :smile:

[Sasan]

I am glad, too.

If you want to play bUrg, but did not like the cutting of the Goyfs in first place I have got something for you all.




Deck: Shamenless bUrg.dec

Maindeck: 60
Creatures:11
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose

Spells:31
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Tarfire
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Sylvan Library

Lands:18
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Submerge
2 Golgari Charm
1 Underground Sea
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Artifact Mutation
1 Life from the Loam
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Rough/Tumble


With 2 Tarfires and 4 Bolts an opposing Delver is not a problem at all. The Snares/Stifle handle Stoneforge well. The one-off Toxic Deluge is a Rough/Tumble that can kill TNN - the mana base gets only a tad worse with an Usea main. After boarding 2 Charms and 1 Deluge and 2 Blasts make sure that TNN is not a problem at all. 2 Artifact destroyers take care of the equipment and Delver is still not a problem at all. I think that list can beat Patriot constantly. The same goes for equipment decks with TNN.

The Rough/Tumbles in the side plus the Charms make the list strong versus all kinds of creature decks. With 5 anti-combo cards (Rebs, Flusters, Clique) plus Library MD combo is very beatable, too. For the tempo mirror the extra land in the sideboard and the Loam (plus the standard include Submerge) certainly help. But the tempo mirror is only about skill so you do not need that much cards for that MU in your SB.


PS: You can also run more Goyf instead of the Library. It is just a personal preference from me now. The card is just like Jace and as the number of played Decays has declined Library is hot right now.

[Akinos]

@ Sasan: I think it's a bad idea to destabilize the main deck unsafe mana base to include a random 3CC spell. You will love Toxic Deluge against TNN deck and often, these decks are tempo deck. It's hard to resolve a 3CC spell through Wasteland / Daze / Pierce.
If i really want to play this secret tech MD, i would prefer play Golgari Charm instead of Deluge: It's an instant speed, costs less, don't kill our Delver and can offer more options (save our creatures from a blast / Decay).

I prefer your previous tech (play 1 Rough / Tumble MD and include 1 U.Sea + 2 Charm in sideboard).

[Sasan]

@ Sasan: I think it's a bad idea to destabilize the main deck unsafe mana base to include a random 3CC spell. You will love Toxic Deluge against TNN deck and often, these decks are tempo deck. It's hard to resolve a 3CC spell through Wasteland / Daze / Pierce.
If i really want to play this secret tech MD, i would prefer play Golgari Charm instead of Deluge: It's an instant speed, costs less, don't kill our Delver and can offer more options (save our creatures from a blast / Decay).

I prefer your previous tech (play 1 Rough / Tumble MD and include 1 U.Sea + 2 Charm in sideboard).

Yeah the toxic Deluge was a test built as I wanted something like Rough with more impact vs TNN. But you might be right. I always hate cc3 cards. But the power level of Deluge is high. So let us see what testings will show. A Golgari Charm MD is too narrow as it does not do anything versus Jund, Shardless Bug, Team America, Deathblade for example. Toxic Deluge can wipe the whole board. But perhaps the most reliable plan is to focus on the postboard games and win there and have a constitent MD. Thanks for your input ;-). It is a very exciting phase before GP Paris where many many ideas will be tested.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I think that the last two posts sum the opinions on MD Deluge. Although the spell uis powerful, and the ability to kill several creatures of tjhoughness 2+, it comes at a price: it's costy, it chews are life points, it may kill Delver, it may be unnecessary in many matchups and it's more of a postboard card than anything else.
I wouldn't be too fancy with maindeck. RUG has quite straightforward plan and I'd stay true to it as much as possible. The slight tweaks, especially powerful and quite one-sided, might be used, and I like the Rough main, and I also like the USea and Charm main, but the more experiemntal things are unnecessary, imho.

[Sasan]

I think that the last two posts sum the opinions on MD Deluge. Although the spell uis powerful, and the ability to kill several creatures of tjhoughness 2+, it comes at a price: it's costy, it chews are life points, it may kill Delver, it may be unnecessary in many matchups and it's more of a postboard card than anything else.
I wouldn't be too fancy with maindeck. RUG has quite straightforward plan and I'd stay true to it as much as possible. The slight tweaks, especially powerful and quite one-sided, might be used, and I like the Rough main, and I also like the USea and Charm main, but the more experiemntal things are unnecessary, imho.

Yes, the Rough MD is perhaps the best little addition you can make to the list. The Charms should only be SB material as I stated above that there are tons of matchups where Charm does not do anything.

Has anyone tried Clique main as a oneoff instead of Goyf 4? Clique grabs the equipment of the Blade Nemesis/Patriot player *and* flies over TNN. That is really huge, a two-for-one card. As combo decks arise due to the TNN meta, Clique is also valid from that perspective. It is also a hard counter versus Miracles, a deck that I expect to make a comeback soon. Clique is better as the 4th Goyf in my opinion. So is Library.

On the topic Dismember vs Tarfire vs FB vs Chain Lighnting I must go with Tarfires. Instant-Speed with reach without drawback is great. It kills every creature in the format except Goyf and Tombstalker (both are not played anymore) and TNN. But well the latter is hard to kill anyway.

Kai had started a discussion some posts earlier whether a RUG built with 3 Shamans is better of with 3 Goyfs. We should discuss that. The answer is not that clear.

[Manipulato]

Hi @ all,
yesterday went 2 RUG Delver Top 16 at SCG Indi and 4 UWR Delver :mad:
One list quite same than mine and one with traditional 3 Probes. .
Also really interesting Dephts decks:eyebrow:

Here's the link
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=01/04/2014&end_date=01/05/2014&start=1&finish=16&city=Indianapolis&state=IN

Btw: I think I will give the 1 Sea 2 Charm SB tech a chance for GP Paris, sooo fucking sick of loosing to that kiddie card:rolleyes:

[Sasan]

One of those RUG lists has only 3 Bolts. I mean what is wrong with these persons? :-P

[Asthereal]

Played against Canadian Thresh twice yesterday at a GPT with my Team America (same player, both in swiss and in the finals).
He was running the TNN tech, and in both matches that thing turned everything around. I was pretty impressed with the tech, so I was rather surprised to see some here saying it sucks. How's that?

[Manipulato]

One of those RUG lists has only 3 Bolts. I mean what is wrong with these persons? :-P

Had the same thought:laugh:
I mean he is replacing 1 Bolt with 1 Fire/Ice? Never ever would I do that!

[Manipulato]

Played against Canadian Thresh twice yesterday at a GPT with my Team America (same player, both in swiss and in the finals).
He was running the TNN tech, and in both matches that thing turned everything around. I was pretty impressed with the tech, so I was rather surprised to see some here saying it sucks. How's that?

On paper and in therory it looked first amazing to me, because it gives you so much advantage but then everytime I drew him I wished it would have been a 4th Goyf because I never could cast him with 2 lands. If your opponent plays wastelands too and fetches you lose lands to his wastelands and use your own wasteland to disrupt him and your stifles get focus on opponent fetches. ..
Looks good but its too clunky for my taste plus everybody is prepared for him! One time I could finaly resolve him he got Immediatley get charmed :rolleyes:

[Isre Morn]

On paper and in therory it looked first amazing to me, because it gives you so much advantage but then everytime I drew him I wished it would have been a 4th Goyf because I never could cast him with 2 lands. If your opponent plays wastelands too and fetches you lose lands to his wastelands and use your own wasteland to disrupt him and your stifles get focus on opponent fetches. ..
Looks good but its too clunky for my taste plus everybody is prepared for him! One time I could finaly resolve him he got Immediatley get charmed :rolleyes:
Did you bring them in with loam postboard?

[Manipulato]

Did you bring them in with loam postboard?

I dont play loam, I got wastet and stifled other fetches or protected my lands but 2 opponent wastes are sometimes too much.

[rlesko]

is anyone worried about this Jund depths deck? I was gonna ditch a couple pieces of grave hate in my SB but I think people might try to replicate the success so I might see it this weekend at SCG Orlando.

[MethadronGer]

After my last tournament where I made a 3:1 to 3:3 I'll try a new setup. Out 3 Probes and one forked bolt in 2 snare and 2 chain.
After I never needed it I'll cut the Elemental in my SB and cut both extraction. In the second Cage and a needle.

[rlesko]

D&T is such a horrible MU, I Will never cut Sulfur Elemental while that is still a deck...

[Bed Decks Palyer]

After my last tournament where I made a 3:1 to 3:3 I'll try a new setup. Out 3 Probes and one forked bolt in 2 snare and 2 chain.
After I never needed it I'll cut the Elemental in my SB and cut both extraction. In the second Cage and a needle.

I decided to move one Rough main and as this opened an sb slot, I will also cut the Elemental and play just two sb Roughs. This way I'll have three sweepers in between my main and sb, which should be enough for the relevant matchups, be it Elves, Dredge, Goblins and even for DnT. I'm still considering one Sulfele in sb, as the split second is pretty powerful against DnT, but this might be overkill. Chinese Art. Mutations are on their way, and I will play one; the other sb slot will be devoted to either Grudge or D. Revelry: while Grudge has flashback, Revelry can kill RiP and I can't tell what's more powerful. I guess that as long as Mutation detroys artifacts with a bonus, I may concentrate on RiP/Choke at least a bit. In fact I'd love to play all three of them as a one of just because of BSkull. I don't have a place for LftL and I'm not really happy from the fact. I may tinker with slots a bit, as Loam helps tremendously in Pox matchup and is quite powerful against tempo decks. I don't want to go below three Submerges, as every time I cut it to two, I run into Goyf after Goyf... Same is true for Needle, as playing one is not enough to reliably stop Top/Liliana/Vial.

For the reference...
main deck:
54x RUG
2x Spell Pierce
1x Spell Snare
2x Tarfire
1x Rough//Tumble

sb:
2x Rough//Tumble
3x Submerge
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Artifact Mutation
1x Destructive Revelry
2x Pyroblast
2x Flusterstorm
2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Pithing Needle


Idk...

[rlesko]

BDL,

3 pieces of artifact hate seems a bit heavy, no? especially when you could run 2x Ancient Grudge (equivalent to 4x removal but only 2 spells).

[MethadronGer]

D&T is such a horrible MU, I Will never cut Sulfur Elemental while that is still a deck...

I normally agree but I just play one or two tournaments a month and there are one or two DnT over 50 - 60 decks. I won my one and only match against DnT 2:0.
So if I'll play an unknown meta I would never cut the Elemental

[Valtrix]

BDL,

3 pieces of artifact hate seems a bit heavy, no? especially when you could run 2x Ancient Grudge (equivalent to 4x removal but only 2 spells).

I don't necessarily think so. SFM decks are getting more popular, so having more answers to a resolved Jitte and Batterskull seem very appealing. Revelry also seems great to deal with rest in peace. So, if you're expecting a lot of white I think this call makes sense.

Also, on another note, has anybody tried Magma Jet in this deck? It's perhaps a bit slow, but I can't help but feel that the Scry 2 is incredibly valuable. Mostly, I like 6 burn spells, but I'm not incredibly excited about spells 5-6. Fire//Ice only feels so-so, forked bolt can be good, but mostly is just mediocre if not in the right meta.

[rlesko]

I normally only play 1 Ancient Grudge, but as you said there is a spike in SFM decks. I will probably play an additional Ancient Grudge/Krosan Grip. Is Destructive Revelry really better than Krosan Grip? Uncounterable and unable to bounce batterskull, activate sneak attack, or activate jitte seems better, though honestly I don't think Krosan Grip is an acceptable way to battle sneak and show (you can win the fight on the stack).

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Yep, the only reason why I'm considering three arti-kills is SFM.
Also, Revelry isn't better than KGrip, in faxct it's worse, but with all the Wastelands around, we can't play good spells, bad must be good enough.

[poxy14]

destructive revelry to your.......baleful strix..
and by the way...2 damage to your liliana : )

[Bed Decks Palyer]

destructive revelry to your.......baleful strix..
and by the way...2 damage to your liliana : )

Yep, this sounds good! :cool:

[sawatarix]

That's pretty sweet if you can handle batterskull and jace or liliana at once.
Does it happen often enought to bring destructive revelry instead of grudge?



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Sturtzilla]

Greetings! It has been a bit since I have posted in this thread, but I have a little update for you guys! So last night at my LGS I managed to take my RUG list to first place. Ended 3-0-1, drawing in the last round with my friend to make sure I locked up first and that he would land in the money too. Anyway I had seen some discussion of Reality Ripple here a few pages back. I really liked the idea of permanently dealing with a Batterskull and being able to clear lanes for stalled ground creatures... so with that in mind I did some digging and came across Sapphire Charm. It still functions the same way for dealing with Batterskull for :1: less. It can also get cycled for a more relevant card or in a weird situation, give a creature flying, I am not sure when you would want to give a dude flying over phasing out a potential attacker and clearing the lane for the attack on your turn (other than jumping a Goyf over a TNN)... Flying Goyfs anyone?

I played against Tin Fins (2-0), BUG Delver (2-1), Dredge (2-0), and Enchantress (ID). I only saw the Charm twice, the second time was in a no land 7 card opener which I sent back. The first time was in game one versus Tin Fins and it ended up winning me the game. So the game state is I have flipped Delver, 5-power Goyf, with three land and Charm and Lightning Bolt in hand at 17-18 life. My opponent has three land, and Griselbrand in his graveyard. I stopped his first reanimation attempt and he is at 12 life. Fun sequence, here we go! My opponent casts, Goryo's Vengeance, I cannot counter so it resolves. He tanks and decides to pay 7 life to draw 7. I respond by casting Sapphire Charm phasing out Griselbrand, he had to read the card (We have a reader!) after which I had explain how phasing works to him. He has no cards in hand. Charm resolves... potentially giving him a permanent Griselbrand on his following turn. He draws his seven, doesn't hit a white source to cast his Children of Korlis that was just drawn. He is at 5 life, virtual 2, due to the bolt in my hand, and scoops to the 8 on the table.

So due to some good play and good luck, Charm won me that game one. So I am going to keep it in for another few events and see how it works out for me. I would like to hear what you guys think about it. As always thanks for reading!

[Bed Decks Palyer]

While Reality Ripple may save your dudes from Decay, Charm is on mana cheaper and can interact only with opponent's creatures. I'm not sure which card is bettr, they both seem very narrow, but the Charm at least cycles...
Is there any other similar card that would win you that Griselbrand game?

EDIT: Also, you asked when the flying is helpful... Well, any time your Goyf needs to block Delver/Clique/Entreat token.

[Sturtzilla]

While Reality Ripple may save your dudes from Decay, Charm is on mana cheaper and can interact only with opponent's creatures. I'm not sure which card is bettr, they both seem very narrow, but the Charm at least cycles...
Is there any other similar card that would win you that Griselbrand game?

EDIT: Also, you asked when the flying is helpful... Well, any time your Goyf needs to block Delver/Clique/Entreat token.

If the bolt had been a FoW we would have likely won that game, as we could have just used that to counter the Vengeance. Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, and double Daze would have all worked there. I could have even let him resolve the spell with double Lightning Bolt, if I thought he was going to draw first before attacking. So there are a lot of cards and combinations of cards that would have allowed me to win from that particular game state. It was just a weird way to get it done I guess.

Ripple does help against Decay which is an upside for it... I was thinking about this flex slot more for Batterskull removal versus protecting my dudes from Decay and lands from Wasteland. Although I think taking a defensive stance that requires two mana for one spell may be a bit too taxing in many positions.

Goyf ninja blocking is pretty legit. I guess that was in the back of my mind somewhere but I had not seriously considered it. I was thinking more about jumping him to get over opposing Goyfs and TNNs. I guess there could be situations where it could make the difference in a match.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Well, I was thinking more of some "trick" card that could be used in this situation, something similar to Charm/Ripple, but I guess there's no such card and only FoW/Pierce/etc. could have won the game. (Or the pre-attack double-Bolt, of course.)

I think that the main advantage of flying is to get over blockers, be it TNN, GOyf, KotR or w/e , as Delver is quite fragile and shouldn't be that hard to get rid off; morevoer block+Bolt kills the Goyf and that's not what we want. But it's a possibility, of course, and esp. in those situations where there's nothing else to do (either block or lose) it's nice trick. Also, with Tarfire in gy, Goyf may jump up for the Tombstalker... :-))

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I played a Can Thresh to quite unsatisfying 1-2-1 result yesterday. I used the 2 Pierce, 1 Snare, 3 Tarfires setting, with Tarfire been never a factor. I should have played ROugh main, and I even thought about it, but I was lazy to search it.

R1, Blue PainterStone
I lost g1, won g2, unfinished g3

R2, Budget Elves
He overran me both g1 and g2. This so-called "budget" version is much more powerful - hard to hate the non-GSZ, non-NO deck.

R3, ANT
I had more counterspells than he had spells.

R3, UW Miracles
He stabilized g1 on low hit points, I won with Delvers g2, we unfinished g3 though I'd won it with just a turn or two more.

:rolleyes:

[Tormod]

Hit Points...

Did he make his Savings Throw? :tongue:

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Hit Points...

Did he make his Savings Throw? :tongue:

Yep. He ran two fetches into Stifle and wutnot, then two turns before two threshed Mongooses would have defeated him, he resolved Rest in Peace. I even had Sulfur Elemental, but I wasn't able to both Pierce the RiP and play the Sulfele, so I decided to Pierce (as double Mongoose is six dmg) but he Pierced the Pierce and I was left with two 1/1s otb and a 3/2 dude in hand. :rolleyes:

[BVB09]

Hi guys
I need some SB advice for Miracles, Jund and Team America, three decks I expect to face in an event tomorrow almost 100%
Mi SB looks like this:

3 Submerge
2 Rough
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 REB
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Life from the Loam
1 Flusterstorm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Sulfur Elemental

My thoughts are:

Against Miracles bring 2 REB 1 Jace 1 Krosan 1 Ancient Grudge 1 Sulfur Elemental 1 Flusterstorm
Against Team America 2 REB 1 Life from the Loam 3 Submerge
Against Jund 3 Submerge (2 Rough?) 1 Life from the Loam

But I'm absolutely confused on what to side out, I'm a Merfolk player and there I use to side out Dazes and Cursecatchers and even 1-2 Fow, but here I'm a bit lost.

Thank you guys! :)

[Manipulato]

Hi guys
I need some SB advice for Miracles, Jund and Team America, three decks I expect to face in an event tomorrow almost 100%
Mi SB looks like this:

3 Submerge
2 Rough
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 REB
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Life from the Loam
1 Flusterstorm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Sulfur Elemental

My thoughts are:

Against Miracles bring 2 REB 1 Jace 1 Krosan 1 Ancient Grudge 1 Sulfur Elemental 1 Flusterstorm
Against Team America 2 REB 1 Life from the Loam 3 Submerge
Against Jund 3 Submerge (2 Rough?) 1 Life from the Loam

But I'm absolutely confused on what to side out, I'm a Merfolk player and there I use to side out Dazes and Cursecatchers and even 1-2 Fow, but here I'm a bit lost.

Thank you guys! :)

Depends on your Mainboard, but against TA & Jund you can board out 4 FoW and Rough is great against Jund! Kills DS, Bob & Bloodbraid. Depending on your list you can board out stuff like -4 Daze -1 Spell Pierce -1 Daze -1 Stifle or something.
Against Miracles you can board out some removal (Forked Bolt, Dismember 1 Bolt etc.) a couple of daze (because they will play around it or will say draw go until your Daze gets useless), keep in all 4 Stifles for fetches and more important the miracle triggers.
By the way, Jace is really hard to cast! I would not play that card in the SB, I know the background behind that strategy but I think its quite poor. ..Use that slot more for 1 Pyroblast or a 2nd Flusterstorm or a Snare. ..
I hope I could help you with that a bit!

Greetings

[rlesko]

Help me pick 10 for SCG Orlando on Sunday!

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/11/yqude3e9.jpg


Sent from my iPhone

[KobeBryan]

Help me pick 10 for SCG Orlando on Sunday!

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/11/yqude3e9.jpg


Sent from my iPhone

4 stifle 2 forked bolt. 2 spell pierce. 2 spell snare.

[AlbyLegacy]

Mtg Legacy: Goblins VS True-Name Patriot playtesting. with my goblins list.

Game1
http://youtu.be/l4L40w2FCGo


Game2
http://youtu.be/5zbRfQiFAo8


I will be posting my videos.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

4 stifle 2 forked bolt. 2 spell pierce. 2 spell snare.

I'd be conservative and try the same.

EDIT: Thinking of several matches I had in past weeks, Fire//Ice seems to me like an option. Nowadays Thresh are pretty unable to force the last chunk of dmg through resolved Goyf/KotR/Stalker. The turn1 DRS is overrated and we have already four Bolts to their (maximum possible number of) four DRS, and then there are secondary burn spells we may use no later than turn2 (Fire, Forked Bolt, Chain Lightnng, Tarfire).

[Manipulato]

Mtg Legacy: Goblins VS True-Name Patriot playtesting. with my goblins list.

Game1
http://youtu.be/l4L40w2FCGo


Game2
http://youtu.be/5zbRfQiFAo8


I will be posting my videos.

This is the RUG Delver Thread not UWR/Patriot or Goblin thread. Don`t mean it unfriendly just saying :wink:

[BVB09]

Depends on your Mainboard, but against TA & Jund you can board out 4 FoW and Rough is great against Jund! Kills DS, Bob & Bloodbraid. Depending on your list you can board out stuff like -4 Daze -1 Spell Pierce -1 Daze -1 Stifle or something.
Against Miracles you can board out some removal (Forked Bolt, Dismember 1 Bolt etc.) a couple of daze (because they will play around it or will say draw go until your Daze gets useless), keep in all 4 Stifles for fetches and more important the miracle triggers.
By the way, Jace is really hard to cast! I would not play that card in the SB, I know the background behind that strategy but I think its quite poor. ..Use that slot more for 1 Pyroblast or a 2nd Flusterstorm or a Snare. ..
I hope I could help you with that a bit!

Greetings

Thank you! :)
But I'm not sure about siding out the fows against Jund, it's true that it's probably the worst card in that MU, but they'll probably bring Choke and that's terrible. :(
I'm still testing Jace, the other replacements (against Miracles) are Sylvan library or Snare, but none of them are game breaking, and in that MU is always is normal to lay the fourth land, as it tends to go long... I'm not sure yet...

[AlbyLegacy]

This is the RUI G Delver Thread not UWR/Patriot or Goblin thread. Don`t mean it unfriendly just saying :wink:

I know. I thought maybe you guys would like playtesting videos. I'll be playIng other decks as well. ;).

[Quasim0ff]

I know. I thought maybe you guys would like playtesting videos. I'll be playIng other decks as well. ;).
Nice thinking, but I recking if people wanted to follow the UWR list, they'd go in the UWR thread?

[rlesko]

I'd be conservative and try the same.

EDIT: Thinking of several matches I had in past weeks, Fire//Ice seems to me like an option. Nowadays Thresh are pretty unable to force the last chunk of dmg through resolved Goyf/KotR/Stalker. The turn1 DRS is overrated and we have already four Bolts to their (maximum possible number of) four DRS, and then there are secondary burn spells we may use no later than turn2 (Fire, Forked Bolt, Chain Lightnng, Tarfire).

That was my original configuration. Leaning towards 2 probe, 2 pierce, 2 fb, 1 spell snare, 3 stifle due to the information off probe being more valuable in a room full of unknown. Still have today to mull over it.

Fire // ice is ok, but with snare and burn spells, I find we can take care of goyf, bob, sfm, etc and can just FoW KotR. Against KotR decks I think it is correct to leave in some number of FoW since a resolved KotR is usually game (unless we can submerge in response to library search)


Sent from my iPhone

[sawatarix]

@rlesko: i would run 4 stifle 3 snare 1 forked bolt and 2 dismember this sunday to combat uwr,batterskulldecks in gegeral and fish


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[KobeBryan]

That was my original configuration. Leaning towards 2 probe, 2 pierce, 2 fb, 1 spell snare, 3 stifle due to the information off probe being more valuable in a room full of unknown. Still have today to mull over it.

Fire // ice is ok, but with snare and burn spells, I find we can take care of goyf, bob, sfm, etc and can just FoW KotR. Against KotR decks I think it is correct to leave in some number of FoW since a resolved KotR is usually game (unless we can submerge in response to library search)


Sent from my iPhone


I would not worry about kotr decks. There's not that many out therewith drs and rip

I would find ways to deal with x/2 creatures instead

[sawatarix]

You snare every single creature in the format,bolt shaman and delver and force tnn.postboard force+blast for tnn
.simply as that

- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[MethadronGer]

I thought a lot of my last games and I think I had lost most of them cause of keeping the wrong hands. So maybe someone of you'll give me some good hands for example?

[Rosy]

Hi guys, I tried 3x tarfire in my RUG yesterday and I was pleased with its performance. Its definitely a meta choice but focusing on increasing goyf level seems right when a lot of people switching to UWR delver.

What is your experience with tarfire? Thanks

[Isre Morn]

Hi guys, I tried 3x tarfire in my RUG yesterday and I was pleased with its performance. Its definitely a meta choice but focusing on increasing goyf level seems right when a lot of people switching to UWR delver.

What is your experience with tarfire? Thanks

metachoice as you mentioned. I quite like it next to forked bolt. better than chain lightning according to my inner feeling. I like the instant speed. In current Blade and UWR mine field my flex slots are 2x pierce, 2x tarfire, 2x snare.

[poxy14]

What is your experience with tarfire? Thanks

vs creature deck, it's been doing wonders for me too..havent had to rely on having snares by the time SFM arrives, with just a large number of burn spells MD, every annoying crit will surely die. last time i played just 2 copies, replacing 1 with F/ice just to up my blue spells, and it's my replacement for my all time favorite forked bolt. Goyf will surely be a FAST clock.

current crit config: 4 delvers/ 3 goose/ 4 tarmos / 1 TNN

well, i love tweaking decks...
next time i would be testing BURST LIGHTNING instead of tarfires
changing 1 tarmo for the 4th goose (so i have 5 untargetable crits)
will not be using TARFIRES since ive lessen my goyf count to 3.. the reason is, ive lost 2 games vs BNW tokens (different players/diff. tourneys) that are boarding in PATH2EXILES...and even if i landed a huge goyf, surely is it's gonna be exiled..vs this deck, i really miss the 4th goose..
i'll keep u all posted with the results...

[trollking21]

well, i love tweaking decks...
next time i would be testing BURST LIGHTNING instead of tarfires.

Burst lightning seems utterly terrible. If you can kick it you've lost the game most likely and if not it is actually just shock

[sawatarix]

Aggree with trollking21, burst lightning is shock.The time you have 5+ Lands in play to either kick it or to hard cast
force of will the game is in your opponents favour.(exception:mirrorgame but 4 damage does not do anything there anyway)


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I'll wait for the test results. But I also fear you will be disappointed.

[poxy14]

I'll wait for the test results. But I also fear you will be disappointed.


Yup, i do understand what u guys are thinking, burst is just a weak option compared to burn arsenal we currently have...chain, forked, fice, or tarfire...i just love what tarfires gave me eot, compared to forked, the only reason is im benching one goyf for the fourth goose..playing tarfires will just give me headaches vs goyf.dec..and i do agree by the time we can kick burst, its either we're almost at the finish line or we are losing..during this week's playtest if burst will not do well im gonna switch back to tarfires, four goyf, 3goose main...spoiled born of the gods blk pieces show - / -crit kill...together with the print of deluge..our clock should be huge and that is where goyf comes...i just hate it being pathed that's i entertained the idea of havin 5crits main untargettable...

[Isre Morn]

i just hate it being pathed that's i entertained the idea of havin 5crits main untargettable...
if you want to run 5 untargetable crits (4 goose and 1 tnn) i also would run 4 goyfs if you prefer tarfire. 4 delver is self-evident. then i'd disclame another spell...

in my opinion 4 goose, 4 delver and 4 goyf is well balanced. you may play 1 tnn in sb. along with 1 clique it's well suited.

[sawatarix]

Tarmogoyfs are still important, RUG remains an Gruul-Aggrodeck with Cantrips sometimes.
Bashing the opponent to low life before he lands a TNN (dazeproof most of the time)
Is kinda important i guess to burn him dead afterwards.
True Name is not a replacement for any creature ,it would be the 13th creature in my opinion.
4 Goyfs have been always great so far.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Isre Morn]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151067&d=1389834005

Thoughts? I think it's difficult to play cause of RR, perhaps as a 1off. But still powerful. Bolt to head and shock to creature in one.
But why don't bring some new discussion in here.

[SirTylerGalt]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151067&d=1389834005

Thoughts? I think it's difficult to play cause of RR, perhaps as a 1off. But still powerful. Bolt to head and shock to creature in one.
But why don't bring some new discussion in here.

We are not playing Searing Blaze. Why should we play this new card?

[Isre Morn]

Ah, thx for the clue. Totally deleted this card in my brain :tongue: Well, then...

[sawatarix]

Just to make sure: RUG is not a burn deck gentlemen.
Burn is just a combination of terminate and lava spike as drew levin told me.
The main porpose is to handle potential blockers for tarmogoy and Nimble mongoose and to get rid of manaproducing creatures to complete thr manadenialplan.





- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[poxy14]

Just to make sure: RUG is not a burn deck gentlemen.
The main porpose is to handle potential blockers for tarmogoy and Nimble mongoose and to get rid of manaproducing creatures to complete thr manadenialplan.


totally agree...i added burn too in my MD, just to keep them annoying crits (sfm/drs/bobs/moms/thalias...) at bay..
burning my opponent is just a secondary option...i think burn in RUG serves as a counterspell for opposing crits.

[sawatarix]

It's removal function is far more important than reach.
Therefore i run 4 bolts and 2 dismember ,the second one gets rid of batterskull goyf and tombstalker (and sometimes griselbrand but that is another story)
It is crucial to get opposing stalling creatures out of here.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[MethadronGer]

Made 4:2 and 13th place on a 60 man event today.
Lost against Jund and Miracles. Won against Nic fit, bug, UWR and reanimator.
I played 2 chain lightning MD and they made a good job.
The question is what can I do against Miracles? I borded 2 red. Blasts and two Grudge for otd Daze and otp I forgot what I boarded out. All games were close but I needed one more turn he gave me.

[sawatarix]

Why do you board in grudge?
Does not make any sense,it's only usable if sensei's devining top gets tapped.

Against miracles you board in all pierces,snares,blasts,vortex and cliques if your sideboard contains any of them.
Keep 2-3 Bolts in your maindeck to burn down jaces,opposing cliques.
The reach is often also very important because you decrease the time for your opponent to stabilize.



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[MethadronGer]

Sorry for sure Grudge makes no sense was little brain dead yesterday. I only have two blasts in my Board dunno should I play one clique? I never played her do I only need her against Miracles?

[sawatarix]

Clique is a great sb choice to deal with stoneforge mystic,miracledecks to stop miraclespells (in resp to miracle trigger) and also fine against elves.
Try her :)





- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[MethadronGer]

Them I think I need one thank you dude

[Manipulato]

Tried the 2 Golgari Charm + 1 Sea SB yesterday and it was just really bad!
I never could cast it because A: I had to fetch Trop or Volcanic and had it not in hand and later drew it or B: It got wastet and I had to lay it down because I needed the mana and my opponent played a wasteland already before or C: I had it in hand + fetch but my opponent had double Mindsencor in play!
BUG or bUrg are much better for this card and 1 Sea is way to low to cast it constantly.
I think the way to go for RUG is up the number of REB/Pyroblast to 4 pieces and add 1 Rough MD and 2 in the SB + some number of Dismembers in the SB.

[sawatarix]

@ manipulato: most of the tnn decks are playing wastelands and with only one copy of usea (and no deathriteshamans) it is indeed not that easy to cast golgari charm constantly.
I tried and tested it but wasting a sideboardslot for a land doesn't appeal to me so i finally switched my deck




- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Manipulato]

@ manipulato: most of the tnn decks are playing wastelands and with only one copy of usea (and no deathriteshamans) it is indeed not that easy to cast golgari charm constantly.
I tried and tested it but wasting a sideboardslot for a land doesn't appeal to me so i finally switched my deck




- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

Sasan had that idea a couple pages back and I was sick losing to TNN so I wanted to try that tech especially because Charm is great against elves & DnT too but I had the same conclusion like you sad. Its just way to unconsistent to cast without DS or more Seas in the MB.

Really switching to bUrg now!

Bad tech Sasan :tongue:

Greetings

[sawatarix]

@Sasan:
Your secret techs looks interesting all the time but i would recommend to test that specific new card (a lot) before posting it.

@topic:
With the printing of Spirit of the Labyrinth and the rise of D&T Decks the number of golgari charms increases to 3 in my Sideboard for sure.

In the classic Canadian ******** Sulfur Elemental and Rough will deserve another slot in the sideboard.



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[MethadronGer]

Maybe forked bolt will become a better choice than chain lightning with the print of the Spirit. But which deck can play the spirit except DnT?

[Isre Morn]

Maybe forked bolt will become a better choice than chain lightning with the print of the Spirit. But which deck can play the spirit except DnT?

Perhaps Maverick. Gonna try 2 Rough Main in the flex slots and up the Elemental to 2 in SB.

[SirTylerGalt]

Thoughts on the following list that finished 13th out of 342 at SCG Colombus?

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=62707


The maindeck is original, with only 2 Goyf and 3 Stifle. I also like the Ground Seal and Young Pyromancer in the SB.

[that0neguy]

Has anyone posted a detailed sb plan for each of the decks to beat recently?

I'm curious what people take out against different decks, and if people change on the play vs the draw.

I'm kinda curious how people are trying to deal with TNN. I used to board out FoW, but I have been thinking about keeping it in more to have more hard counterspells to it.

In combo match ups, I also know a lot of people will take out bolts, but I have been usually taking out a combination of Bolts and goyfs for the combo match up.

Are people running a couple TNN in the board, or are people still sticking with things like Jace/Clicque?

[Contract Killer]

I just tried Sasan's deck tech... well half of it at least. I ditched the mainboard rough and counterspell last second for 2x spell pierce because I saw 4 regular combo players come in. This is my current list:

Instant (26)
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
1x Dismember
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Spell Pierce
3x Spell Snare
4x Stifle

Sorcery (4)
4x Ponder

Land (18)
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Tropical Island
3x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland

Creature (11)
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Nimble Mongoose
3x Tarmogoyf

Enchantment (1)
1x Sylvan Library

Sideboard (14)
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Artifact Mutation
2x Flusterstorm
2x Golgari Charm
1x Life from the Loam
2x Pyroblast
2x Rough/Tumble
2x Submerge
1x Underground Sea
1x Grafdigger's Cage

MU were:
Jund lost in 3
Doomsday won in 2
Esper Stoneblade won in 2
Dredge won in 3

Not too sure how good the golgari charm plan is since I never really had to use it. The stoneblade list game 1 I just saw stoneforge and snapcaster. I wasn't sure if he had TNN or was just playing a more conservative list and decided to not risk siding in possibly dead cards.

As for the TNN dilemma that RUG decks are in what about skullcrack? It seems really good if we swing with Tarmogoyf, but trading a goose for a TNN seems really bad.
I'm thinking about trying the Sapphire Charm plan to deal with Batterskull and/or go over other creatures. Another thing that I found while digging for phasing cards what about Vision Charm? It seems like it has potential to just buy a turn by nerfing all of the opponents lands on their upkeep.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Has anyone posted a detailed sb plan for each of the decks to beat recently?

I'm curious what people take out against different decks, and if people change on the play vs the draw.

I'm kinda curious how people are trying to deal with TNN. I used to board out FoW, but I have been thinking about keeping it in more to have more hard counterspells to it.

In combo match ups, I also know a lot of people will take out bolts, but I have been usually taking out a combination of Bolts and goyfs for the combo match up.

Are people running a couple TNN in the board, or are people still sticking with things like Jace/Clicque?

I keep some Bolts in, as combo players might bring in Xantid Swarm. Yes, yes, "but Swarm is bad against deck with Bolts" and "but they won't bring in Swarm because of your Bolts" and "you shouldn't keep Bolts, because they won't bring Swarm in" and all other next level next-levelling... Simply take out the secondary removal and keep three to four Bolts, it's enough for their 2-3 XS and it still may finish them or lower their life total before AdN, if they keep it in.
I take out Mongooses, esp. when I anticipate EtW and thus bring in Roughs. Mongoose is low impact slow card, while Goyf may kill in few swings.

[sawatarix]

I also keep in 2-3 bolts in almost any combo mu even if they don't have annoying creatures like xantid swarm.

They are 2 ways to beat combo:
Either you gather a powerful hand with infinite counterspells ,land a creature and win slowly or you just try to race them.
The second version is especially good against slower combodecks such as mono u omnitell.
The key to victory is to land 1-3 creatures(delver and goyfs),counter their cantrips to force them to topdeck perfectly and finish them in 4 turns.bolts increases the clock.




- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Also flash creatures are quite powerful. I sometimes bring even the Elemental, if there's a card to take out for it.

[MethadronGer]

I never board out the full set of bolt against TES or ANT. Cause so they never can drain them down to 3 or less life with Ad Nauseum.

[that0neguy]

For me the decision to keep in bolts doesn't depend on xantid swarm at all. To me, keeping in bolts is usually the go to plan. I usually like to take out 2-4 Tarmogoyfs before I start to take out any bolts. My logic being that I never need to cast more than 1 tarmogoyf, and I would rarely ever need to cast a tarmogoyf early. If I have 4 Goyfs in, there is a decent chance they are just sitting in my hand, not wanting to tap out for them. Bolts can still mess with their math with ad nauseum. The MU is also usually strong enough that you don't need to bring in more than 4 cards (3 REB and a Flusterstorm in my case)

Against sneak and show it is usually a bit trickier, because you still don't really want to tap out early for tarmogoyfs, but bolts have a much more marginal role here as well. There have been G1s though where I have blocked a greisbrand with a delver and then bolted it before damage to prevent them from gaining 7, and then swinging back with a lethal goyf or mongoose. If you board out goyfs though, the plan to keep bolts in can be less powerful as well though. I have been going -2 bolts -2 goyf +3 reb +1 flusterstorm.

What about TNN? All we can really do is REB it, or keep them off 3 mana right? Do you guys keep FoW in for those MUs?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

For me the decision to keep in bolts doesn't depend on xantid swarm at all. To me, keeping in bolts is usually the go to plan. I usually like to take out 2-4 Tarmogoyfs before I start to take out any bolts. My logic being that I never need to cast more than 1 tarmogoyf, and I would rarely ever need to cast a tarmogoyf early. If I have 4 Goyfs in, there is a decent chance they are just sitting in my hand, not wanting to tap out for them. Bolts can still mess with their math with ad nauseum. The MU is also usually strong enough that you don't need to bring in more than 4 cards (3 REB and a Flusterstorm in my case)

Against sneak and show it is usually a bit trickier, because you still don't really want to tap out early for tarmogoyfs, but bolts have a much more marginal role here as well. There have been G1s though where I have blocked a greisbrand with a delver and then bolted it before damage to prevent them from gaining 7, and then swinging back with a lethal goyf or mongoose. If you board out goyfs though, the plan to keep bolts in can be less powerful as well though. I have been going -2 bolts -2 goyf +3 reb +1 flusterstorm.

What about TNN? All we can really do is REB it, or keep them off 3 mana right? Do you guys keep FoW in for those MUs?

Oh, I think I should do the similar and cut one Goyf. Do you keep Mongooses? Ppl like them, as they're one drop, but it takes eternity before they grow so I tend to cut them. My idea is that the first turns are about control and only Delver has any meaning, because it is cheap and fast. Once you'll gain control over the game, you rahter wish to play the 3/4 Goyf thn 1/1 Mongoose.
Also, I play Needle and Cage in sb, so I took those in when they matter. Cage is not the best card against PiF decks, cause they may win with IT chain or simply EtW for a lot, but I still like how it covers one angle, the gy combo. Needle is obvious.

[that0neguy]

Mongeese probably aren't ideal, but I like them better than tarmogoyfs for the casting cost alone. Most of the time I think you really only need to bring in 4-6 cards at most. I think the most I would consider brining in would be 3 REB, 1 Flusterstorm, 2 Rough/tumble. I would take out all 4 goyfs before I took out geese. I don't really like the idea of going under 8 creatures.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Mongeese probably aren't ideal, but I like them better than tarmogoyfs for the casting cost alone. Most of the time I think you really only need to bring in 4-6 cards at most. I think the most I would consider brining in would be 3 REB, 1 Flusterstorm, 2 Rough/tumble. I would take out all 4 goyfs before I took out geese. I don't really like the idea of going under 8 creatures.

Well, i do the opposite, I take out Mongooses. It takes too much time before they are big enough, and in the menatime they die to Rough. Yep, it's annoying to tap out for the Goyf, but you should be able to find an open window once you're at three mana.

[sawatarix]

In my experience sneakshow and Ant have to be combat differently.

I: Sneakshow decks normally uses cantrips until turn 3-4 and then go off (most of the time by playing a solland followed by either show and tell or sneak attack.
Against this deck we can easily deploy tarmogoyf on turn 2 especially if we are on the play.
Tarmogoyf is a 3/4 immediately and knocks down our opponent dead in a few turns like delver does.
I board +3 Pyroblast +2 Spell Pierce + 1 Pithin Needle +2 Ancient Grudge
-2 Nimble Mongoose
-1 Tarmogoyf
-2 Dismember
-3 Spell Snare

Opening hands:
Don't keep bad hands!!
For example,i would keep this Hand against sneakshow:

Tarmogoyf
Scalding Tarn
Volcanic Island
Wasteland
Brainstorm
Daze
Lightning Bolt

While this Hand would be an immideate mulligan:

Force of Will
Force of Will
Tropical Island
Misty Rainforest
Stifle
Wasteland
Spell Pierce

Make sure you have business(creatures or cantrips to find any).A hand without action does not do anything.


II: Against Ant things look a bit different.

The best way to beat Ant is to screw their manabase and counter their cantrips if possible.
Stifles and Wastelands combined with Daze are the key here.
Spell Pierce,Spell Snare and Force of Will remain in our hand as they are hard countermagic (yes even spell pierce) until our opponent goes off.
In this scenario it is not that easy to tap out turn 2 for goyf because our opponent can take this opportunity to fetch for basiclands or simply just combo off very quickly which they can.
boarding:
+3 Pyroblast
+2 Spell Pierce
+1 Grafdiggers Cage
+2 Rough/Tumble
-4 Tarmogoyf
-2 Dismember
-1 Tropical Island
-1 Lightning Bolt




- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[MethadronGer]

...

Maybe you could post your Sideboard?

[sawatarix]

Sideboard:15
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
2 Rough // Tumble
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Submerge


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Bed Decks Palyer]

@ sawatarix: Yep, your microanalysis is correct. I just wish to add that the more time we give to ANT player, the better his chances for sculpting the hand are. Also, he may get himself out of the manscrew. So this is why I dislike Mongoose. But maybe it's the correct approach.

[sawatarix]

Concerning nimble mongoose and ********:

Gaudenis vidugiris who won legacy GP Atlanta a few years ago played 3 copies of though scour which i like.
It does have many little synergies with Brainstorm,Ponder,Delver,Tarmogoyf,Goose,Submerge.

I would give scour a chance again to "flip" our mongeese quickly, i'm just not sure about the slots we have to take out for it.

For reference,here you can find gaudenis' list.
(I would not cut stifle )

Any thoughts? :-)



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[anakyn]

I'm always a bit astonished when I see people siding out Goyf against combo: Goyf seems to me like a great card in these matchups, cause it represents fast clock for 2 mana.
Delver is just better of course, but if we don't draw it we need another clock, and Goyf seems better than Mangoose for this purpose: from my experience, reaching threshold vs combo decks is a bit slower than against aggro or control, so Mangoose will take too long to grow to an acceptable clock.
So, if I have to side out some creature, I always choose to cut Mangoose instead of Goyf.

I understand and agree that tapping out on our 2nd turn vs ANT can be problematic, but I'd surely prefer waiting until 3rd turn to cast Goyf (leaving 1 mana open) than casting Mangoose on my second turn and waiting several turns before it decides to grow up.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Yep, Mongoose is slow. I think I'll stay true to Goyfs.


Missing link: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=47548
On the Thought Scour: I got similar feeling as with Probe, it's a card that is more cute than good and I also don't know what to cut from md. Will you shave threats, answers or cantrips? And on the above list: three Bolts are simply bad.

[carefulmug]

Cutting Tarmogoyf against Combo in favor of more control elements is probably okay. Canadian Threshold used to function on only 8 creatures for years; there's no reason a Delver of Mongoose alone or together won't be sufficient. Bolts are usually only okay to cut against Show Decks, switched out for Pyro/REBs.

Anyway,

I've been thinking of methods for Thresh to better its poor matchups pre-board. Here's a list:


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt

4 Ponder
4 Chain Lightning

4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island


Essentially,

-3 G. Probe
-1 Fire/Ice

+4 Chain Lightning

Helps combat Elves, SFM, DRS, DnT, Merfolk, functions as reach against TNN match ups, and, to a degree, Lili, Jace.

Because the overall blue count has been dropped, and due to a slower meta, I also propose:

-1 Force of Will (To Sideboard)

+1 Spell Pierce

If SotL pushes DnT back to the forefront, the Chains should probably be Forked Bolts.

Thoughts?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Hello carefulmug, welcome onboard! :)

Yep, I think that if meta moves more towards the creature decks, additional burn will be necessary. The only thing I dislike in your list are the three FowS (but there's nothing one may do about it), no Snares (I guess that Thalia, Spirit OTL, Goyf, SFM, Counterbalance and other spells need to be kept in check) and the Chain Lightnings, which should be Forked Bolts, as you noted.

[carefulmug]

Thank you for the welcome.

Regarding Spell Snare, the SFM, SotL, and Thalia issue is ideally resolved by the additional burn. If opposing Goyfs and Counterbalances are problematic, there is a case to be made for Snares, indeed, and I believe they take Spell Pierce's slot.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Thank you for the welcome.

Regarding Spell Snare, the SFM, SotL, and Thalia issue is ideally resolved by the additional burn. If opposing Goyfs and Counterbalances are problematic, there is a case to be made for Snares, indeed, and I believe they take Spell Pierce's slot.

Yes, those creatures are solved by burn (well, except for Goyf, you must use the combat step to get rid of it), but as Legacy meta is very wide, I would feel strange to not have an answer to cmc2 spells that are able to win on spot, be it Counterbalance, Burning Wish or anything else. the fact that Snare also hits annoying creatures is a cherry on top. It's too versatile to not use it, at least as a one of.

[sawatarix]

3 Fows? Sry that is a nogo my friend as Fow is an excellent tempo counter which helps to get rid of anything.
Cut Pierces/Snares/Goyfs first before you cut forces.

I would probably run a list with 3 Goyfs 4 fows 3 Spell Snares 2 Forked Bolts and 2 Dismember (to get rid of goyfs,germtokens,tombstalker)
An additional copy of rough/tumble can be put in the sb.

I like dismember in general as it gets you back in the game even if your opponent is far ahead with goyf.




- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Contract Killer]

@Carefulmug
I like your list but for most of the same reason you're running chain lightnings to deal with 2cmc threats like Stoneforge, Bob, Spirit of the labyrinth, etc snare does the same thing minus the extra reach. It just seems like snare might be better. Patriot Aggro and D&T have their mana denial plan which can leave us without red. At least with Snare it can be cast off both of our lands making it much harder to disrupt. Dismember is another choice I really like due to the easy mana and it deals with nearly every problem creature aside TNN, Kotr (tentatively depending on size/combat).

Another card I would recommend trying is Sylvan library instead of a fourth Goyf (thanks @Sasan). At first I wasn't too sure but after going T1 goose, T2 library against Esper Stoneblade and continuing to either fetch/ponder to see 3 new cards every turn I was sold. It's like pondering/ brainstorming every turn.

[Lemnear]

@Carefulmug
I like your list but for most of the same reason you're running chain lightnings to deal with 2cmc threats like Stoneforge, Bob, Spirit of the labyrinth, etc snare does the same thing minus the extra reach. It just seems like snare might be better. Patriot Aggro and D&T have their mana denial plan which can leave us without red. At least with Snare it can be cast off both of our lands making it much harder to disrupt. Dismember is another choice I really like due to the easy mana and it deals with nearly every problem creature aside TNN, Kotr (tentatively depending on size/combat).

Another card I would recommend trying is Sylvan library instead of a fourth Goyf (thanks @Sasan). At first I wasn't too sure but after going T1 goose, T2 library against Esper Stoneblade and continuing to either fetch/ponder to see 3 new cards every turn I was sold. It's like pondering/ brainstorming every turn.

If you Bolt or Snare a Bob or SotL does not make the biggest difference Tempo-wise, but CL is plain bad against SFM, Goofy, Infernal Tutor and Rest in Piece.

[cheerios]

I wouldn't advise playing with 3 FOWs and more burn. As much as possible we want to use our mana to advance the game state while delaying our opponent Snare can ba strong but it also has it's limits. It can't counter show and tell, sneak attack, planeswalkers, batterskull, most sweepers etc. However, if you can guarantee that you'll be facing only decks from the DTB then you can definitely include snares.

edit: changed 2nd sentence from delaying us to delaying opponent :)

[Bed Decks Palyer]

There are some serious arguments in last few posts. I'm convinced that no less than 4 FoWs should be played, and I'm also back in a camp of as few burn as possible (meaning, quite ironically, that in a particular metagame - be it Elves or DRS - this might mean up to seven Bolts).

For a blind metagame, I'd advice to use something like this:

base:
4 FoW
4 Bolt
and then:
2 Pierce (PWs, Terminus, DRit, RiP, StP...)
1 Snare (Thalia, Counterbalance, IT, SFM, Goyf...)
2 Forked Bolt or Tarfire (I'm not really satisfied with the latter, but I need to test it more; usual targets are DRS, MoR, Symbiont, Bob...)
1 choice slot (seventh burn, Rough, Sylvan Library, w/e)

I'm quite unimpressed with Sylvan Library, but I need to admit I played it just for a while. On paper it looks strong, but then on some other paper, it's a CA+CQ card that needs turns to function. And I'm still not sure if tempo deck wants to move into mid-late game.

Gonna out tonight, gonna try Thresh with 2 Tarfires and 1 Rough/Tumble. I hope I won't be disappointed. I somehow loved to play Forked Bolt instead, but as I don't have the Chinese ones (they're so hard to find!) and I wish to test the Tarfire again, I'm fine with the list.

[Lemnear]

There are some serious arguments in last few posts. I'm convinced that no less than 4 FoWs should be played, and I'm also back in a camp of as few burn as possible (meaning, quite ironically, that in a particular metagame - be it Elves or DRS - this might mean up to seven Bolts).

For a blind metagame, I'd advice to use something like this:

base:
4 FoW
4 Bolt
and then:
2 Pierce (PWs, Terminus, DRit, RiP, StP...)
1 Snare (Thalia, Counterbalance, IT, SFM, Goyf...)
2 Forked Bolt or Tarfire (I'm not really satisfied with the latter, but I need to test it more; usual targets are DRS, MoR, Symbiont, Bob...)
1 choice slot (seventh burn, Rough, Sylvan Library, w/e)

I'm quite unimpressed with Sylvan Library, but I need to admit I played it just for a while. On paper it looks strong, but then on some other paper, it's a CA+CQ card that needs turns to function. And I'm still not sure if tempo deck wants to move into mid-late game.

Gonna out tonight, gonna try Thresh with 2 Tarfires and 1 Rough/Tumble. I hope I won't be disappointed. I somehow loved to play Forked Bolt instead, but as I don't have the Chinese ones (they're so hard to find!) and I wish to test the Tarfire again, I'm fine with the list.

I think you should consider this card for those spots:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=126419&type=card&options=rotate90

It handles everything from DRS/Delver up to Tarmogoyf/Tombstalker/Griselbrand

[sawatarix]

@lemnear: i saw dead/gone a lot in tokyo last year when team america was a very popular DTB there.
Bouncing a tombstalker or germ token was great.
However,dismember does solve the same problems.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Lemnear]

@lemnear: i saw dead/gone a lot in tokyo last year when team america was a very popular DTB there.
Bouncing a tombstalker or germ token was great.
However,dismember does solve the same problems.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

True. I cannot estimate, how the lifeloss affects the mirror though

[Contract Killer]

@Bad Decks Player
You only need Sylvan library against games that go long like Stoneblade control, miracles, jund, etc. The ability to out draw them to find more removal, threats, or answers is amazing.
For example playing against stoneblade I knocked him down to 12ish with a single goose. After exhausting his Stoneforge mystic and Liliana only to be met by snare and force he used supreme verdict. The next turn sylvan found me another threat immediately. It's so much card advantage when you just need to keep jamming threats or need to draw removal.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Guys, guys, guys, this is some old tech. I played Dead/Gone in my sb three years ago... when I confused it for Rough/Tumble. :laugh:

Seriously, good idea. I don't remeber how it went back then (I think I returned Iona with it), but it might be a good tool. What I like about Dismember is the ability to play a Goyf-killing card from a Wasteland. What I dislike about it is lifeloss and not enough versatility. This card kills DRs, removes Goyf, neutralizes BSkull/Grisly and [fixed]. Really interesting!

Btw, what's the opinion on Assault/Battery? Yep, a 3/3 slon for four ain't The Best Creature of Legacy (TM), but it may help when there's nothing else to do (midgame?). And Assault still kills DRS and throws a sorcery in gy to feed the Goyf.

I'm quite tempted to try some insane split of splits like
1 Assault/Battery (to kill the elf and to have a midgame beater)
1 Dead/Gone (to kill the elf and to remove midgame beaters)
1 Rough/Tumble (to kill ALL the elves and to... well... remove endgame Tombstalkers?)



@Bad Decks Player
You only need Sylvan library against games that go long like Stoneblade control, miracles, jund, etc. The ability to out draw them to find more removal, threats, or answers is amazing.
For example playing against stoneblade I knocked him down to 12ish with a single goose. After exhausting his Stoneforge mystic and Liliana only to be met by snare and force he used supreme verdict. The next turn sylvan found me another threat immediately. It's so much card advantage when you just need to keep jamming threats or need to draw removal.
Yes, I guess that for attrition matchups this must be perfect. My main concerns with those matchups are: why we should try to beat them on their terms and ground - I'd rather out-tempo them -, and if the mus are too usual, why we don't switch to another deck? (Well, coz I don't have any other deck after I sold most of my stuff? Ok, but that's another story...)

[Contract Killer]

Yes, I guess that for attrition matchups this must be perfect. My main concerns with those matchups are: why we should try to beat them on their terms and ground - I'd rather out-tempo them -, and if the mus are too usual, why we don't switch to another deck? (Well, coz I don't have any other deck after I sold most of my stuff? Ok, but that's another story...)

@Bad Decks palyer
The thing is we're not trying to beat them on their own terms. You only need to use it for finding answers or more threats. It still fits into our game plan because it gives us the edge we need against decks like Jund with excessive removal.

[Lemnear]

@Bad Decks palyer
The thing is we're not trying to beat them on their own terms. You only need to use it for finding answers or more threats. It still fits into our game plan because it gives us the edge we need against decks like Jund with excessive removal.

I swear that was the reason to run Mongeese, test with TNN and Sawatarix trolling Control/Jund with Kai ... erm ... Thrun, the last Troll

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I thought about Thrun, too. I think I found it somewhere in this thread, so it looks like it was some of you, guys.
I dislike his casting cost, but I may try him out. I loved Troll Ascetic, but it's nowhere good as it was six years ago. so maybe I'll give Thrun a chance.

Also, I'm still considering some funny split of flex slots, something to troll a bit (although not that brilliantly as Thrun can):

Assault//Battery
Dead//Gone
Fire//Ice

:really:


As a sidenote: I guess that as long as I have all the money cards for NO RUG except for NO alone, I may also to build it and try (alongsdie Progenitus) Thrun and... Primeval Titan. :cool:

[Contract Killer]

I swear that was the reason to run Mongeese, test with TNN and Sawatarix trolling Control/Jund with Kai ... erm ... Thrun, the last Troll

I haven't tried TNN yet, but from what I've read it's just plain bad in RUG. Half the time you can't cast it the other half you don't want to because you can't protect it with your spell pierce etc to make sure it resolves. Rug doesn't want to be paying 3 mana for a creature because it's too slow and we can't really keep disruption up simultaneously. To put it simply Nimble Mongoose is getting worse with the amount of playable board wipes in legacy Terminus, Supreme Verdict, Toxic Deluge, Liliana (might as well be a board wipe for us).

Thrun just seems bad again same reason as TNN but I could be proved wrong.

[carefulmug]

@BedDecksPlayer:

I feel Fire//Ice is the preferable card of those three when it comes to Mainboard inclusion. Fire is an instantaneous forked bolt and Ice cantrips while removing to FoW. The maneuverability is highest.


To the board, what are current opinions regarding what seemed the standard

3x Gitaxian Probe
1x Fire//Ice
2x Spell Pierce

plan? It struck me as aggressive and fast, helping to end games before we lose power in our soft counters and land disruption.

Also, has anybody experimented with Ensnare in SB? I'm running 2x in place of Rough//Tumbles and it has been very powerful in racing TNN and a variety of other scenarios that we would usually lose to, such as Griselbrand, Craterhoof, Germs, Emrakul. Against Team America and BUG thresh, it breaks through Goyf and Tombstalker stalemates. All while being "free", instant speed, and pitching to Force.


Also. NO RUG might be fun to experiment with again. The Format has slowed down to around Mental Misstep era, no?

[anakyn]

To the board, what are current opinions regarding what seemed the standard

3x Gitaxian Probe
1x Fire//Ice
2x Spell Pierce

plan? It struck me as aggressive and fast, helping to end games before we lose power in our soft counters and land disruption.


I'm not playing RUG right now 'cause I'm testing Patriot, but last time I played it I used this configuration and I loved it.

As you noted, Fire//Ice seems the best "extra-Bolt" to maindeck because of its versatility, while Gitaxian is great in this deck: it makes us reaching threshold faster, and above all it gives information on opponent's hand, which is vital in RUG since we can follow very different strategies depending on what the opponent is playing.
Probes were usually the first cards I boarded out in games 2&3 because they had already performed their primary role, but I think they are vital in game 1.

[Contract Killer]

So here's something I've been wondering what's people stance on probe? Originally I thought it was horrible and that I would rather want more steam. After trying it out I learned how powerful it can be in sequencing plays that normally you wouldn't due to being cautious or whatever.
4 delver
4 goose
3 goyf
1 Sylvan Library
4 FOW
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dissmember
3 Spell snare
2 Spell pierce
STOCK 18 land package

Now after trying this configuration I've come to the conclusion that if you can read your opponent, know what to play around that you don't need probe. I mean how many times have you probed and it be irrelevant against Jund having abrupt decay or show and tell having the perfect hand? Probe has both done wonders and bricked for me I'm just curious what people think about it. Another thing right now in particular I think Spell Snare seems really powerful across the board.

[that0neguy]

I was hesitant about probe, but now I love it. It opens up a thousand subtle lines of play. The most powerful being, Fetch, Probe decide to hold up stifle or jam delver. Which when done blind, can be huge. And it always draws a card/reduces the number of cards in your deck. It is a sorcery for goyf. I think it makes 1x sideboard cards at least a small margain better. I don't think I will be going back to not playing it, unless stifle starts to get bad, but if the metagame is not good for stifle, I don't think I would probably be playing UWR with TNNs.

There was also some talk about Sylvan library. I don't think I would ever want sylvan in the md in an unknown meta. To make sylvan library better than Mirri's Guile (and noone is really suggesting running Mirri's guile), you need to draw at least one card, and the more cards you can draw with it, the better. To me, that makes it a suboptimal card in the MUs where you are racing or your life total really matters. In the mirror or against a control deck where you can pay 8-12 life, it can be amazing, but not md material. With probe leading me to already pay ~4-6 life per game, sylvan library is probably going to be too taxing for me to justify even a SB slot anymore.

I've never been a huge fan of Spell Snare Either. It's the non creatures that really get you, and I think spell pierce usually does a better job at protecting you there.

I run:
4 Delver
4 Geese
4 Goyf
4 Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Probe
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island

SB
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Rough/Tumble
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Life from the Loam
2 Submerge

Crypt, extraction, LftL, and 2x submerge are the slots that change the most.

[sawatarix]

At the moment Snare is just a broken tempo-counterspell and the best "removal" to stoneforge mystic ever printed.
It improves the grindy matchups,which are way harder to win than combodecks like sneakshow.
Postboard the sneakshow mu will get so much better, you don't have to worry about a lost g1.



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I think that additional cantrips/filters above the base eight are redundnat. Yep, GP information are huge, but do they outweight the fact that you have less removal for DRS or less counterspells for SnT/IT? I'm not sure. The only thing that really matters is the Delver/Stifle dilemma. Also, 4-6 dmg count.
Sylvan Library is a powerful yet slow card that works better in slower decks. It doesn't do anything on turn it is played and it just replaces itself on the next turn, unless one may spend some lives. It's CQ engine, no doubts (at least in deck with eight fetches and four Ponders), and it may bring some CA (if there are enough life total), but I still think that I'd play GP/Head Drill before Library... and in fact I'd play additional reach/counterspells.
But I may be wrong, after all, I finished 0:2 drop yesterday, so who am I to blather. :laugh:

And yes, Snare is sick. I will never ever play without one.

[Blitzkreuz]

One could cut 1 tarmo for library, or play with only 2, as I do,instead of cutting each or counters.

But a completely other thing: do u guys think we still need submerges? I cut 1 going down from 3 to 2 but cannot remember sideing them in much. Sure they are good against some decks, but the last top 4 in my meta were tnn blade x3 and one turbo eldrazi. And all in all the decks against I would side submerge in against seem to get less play. And with 2 more space in sb one could pack additional hate against blade decks

Gesendet von meinem HTC One X+ mit Tapatalk

[frenchy-man]

Am I the only one here that thinks that goose is not that great anymore ? Dunno what to replace it by, but it seems less decisive since rest in peace and tnn...

[Bed Decks Palyer]

One could cut 1 tarmo for library, or play with only 2, as I do,instead of cutting each or counters.

But a completely other thing: do u guys think we still need submerges? I cut 1 going down from 3 to 2 but cannot remember sideing them in much. Sure they are good against some decks, but the last top 4 in my meta were tnn blade x3 and one turbo eldrazi. And all in all the decks against I would side submerge in against seem to get less play. And with 2 more space in sb one could pack additional hate against blade decks
Some guys of our lgs already do it, and I think I'm going to do the same. Goyf decks are on decline and you may still fly over them, while there's no chance how to beat BSkull and such.

I'm considering this list:

Qty Name
// Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
//\\
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
//\\
// Spells
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire/Ice
1 Forked Bolt
//\\
// Sideboard
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Artifact Mutation
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sulfur Elemental


some notes on card choices:
- lands: pretty self-explanatory. I just hope I'll lay my hands on Chinese lands, at least at Rainforests, as I got my lovely signed (heavy) played Foothills for eight years ever since I returned to MtG. :tongue:
- I won't cut Goyf, neither I will experiment with another creature. TNN is too expensive (both mana-wise and in money terms) and 4/5 Goyf is at least two turns faster... unles they get rid of it, ofc.
- 8 cantrips, and I'm stopping right there. There's nothing to convince me on any of the following: Sylvan Library (slow), GP (hurts and is more usable in greater numbers, but this is a no-go), Mental Note 2.0 (that I always forget the name.. Thought Scour it is!) is situational card of low impact
- the counterspells suite... well, I'm still uncertain about only one Spell Snare. SFM is so annoying, and the opposing Goyfs are not the worst walls ever. And there are other targets, anything from Hymn to IT.
- 4 Bolts, nuff said
- the additional burn. Now the things get strange. I find the secondary burn (or better said: the flex slots) extremely important, and in fact those are slots that might win/lose the particular matchup. More on it later.

Sb:
2 Rough/Tumble (Elves, DnT, Goblins, Mav) Esp. the first two decks are dangerous, very effective againt Thresh and they can be completely blown by Rough. Two pieces
2 Submerge (Mav, Goyf.dec) I'd love to devote three slots, but that's not possible... and maybe not even needed.
1 Krosan Grip (RiP, Counterbalance, equipments, even Omniscience) Although these cards are fast and CB stops cantrips, I still want to have a fighting chance. At cmc3 one KGrip is enough.
1 Ancient Grudge (equipments, CotV, affinity, Ensnaring Meekstone, Defense Grid) Enough said.
1 Artifact Mutation (Batterskull) I guess that five 1/1 Germs and BSK dead should be powerful play
2 Pyroblast (format) I'm not sure on correct number
1 Flusterstorm (Storm) I'd love to play one more, but as long as I'm RUG, I hope to win this. I may cut one Jitte removal, though.
2 Pithing Needle (MoR, Jitte, Vial, Port, JTMS, Lili, Deed, EE) I can't find the correct number. Maybe one is enough?
2 Grafdigger's Cage (Elves, PiF and gravedecks) I used to play withut it, but Dredge started to appear. Also, this one hoses gy-based decks so hard, that it's worthy the slots
1 Sulfur Elemental (DnT) 3/2 flash body for matchups where it may matter: e.g. UW Miracles


I'm esp. concerned about secondary burn.
Fire/Ice is instant and it may tap opposing Goyfs. With cmc2 it isn't the best card against DRS, namely when the elf is supported by Daze. Feeds FoW, too.
Tarfire feeds Goyf and that's about it. But cmc1 and as an instant it shouldn't be overlooked.
Forked Bolt is sorcery (feed the Goyf!) Fire that might remove turn1 DRS or kill two elves. It's also better against Thalia.
Chain Lightning kills Serra Avenger.
Maindeck Rough beats tribal aggro and it may buy turn against Dredge to fly the Delver FTW. Not to be aimed at head, though.
Dead/Gone is strange card, but it may get rid Tombstalker, Goyf or germ token.
Anything else am I missing?

[sawatarix]

I absolutely dislike cmc 2 cards in such an elegant deck as canadian ********.
Fire ice is one of them: why spending2 Mana to get rid of an stoneforge mystic if you can just chain,dismember it AND lay down a delver on turn 2 ?




- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[anakyn]

I absolutely dislike cmc 2 cards in such an elegant deck as canadian ********.
Fire ice is one of them: why spending2 Mana to get rid of an stoneforge mystic if you can just chain,dismember it AND lay down a delver on turn 2 ?


Because you can do more things with it:
- killing two x/1 weenies instead of just one (great vs DnT - which is one on the toughest matchups - Elves and others)
- tapping some big creature (+ cantripping) to get that final swing past it (I won so many games this way)
- pitching to FoW
- you could also tap some land on opponent's upkeep to improve the mana denial plan, but that happens rarely nowadays
...all in one card.

All in all, I still consider Fire // Ice the best extra-burn Canadian can play: it absolutely fits the deck's playstile, strategy, versatility AND elegance.

[BKclassic]

So I have developed a build of RUG that I consider to be pretty good in the current True-Name metagame. If you aren't aware, the effect True-Name Nemesis is having on the meta is that all mid-range blue decks are built around True-Name Nemesis because it is the ultimate mid range trump. However, this creates a hole in the meta game for decks that can survive mid-range assault and trump T-NN with an even bigger end game, Jund Depths is the perfect example of this. The traditional build of RUG Delver we have all been playing (12 creatures, Stifle) is not very effective in this metagame. Stifle and Wasteland is not enough to keep our opponents from resolving True-Name Nemesis if they want to and Nimble Mongoose does not attack effectively into T-NN. The slower decks that can trump T-NN are built to survive Stifle/Wasteland/Daze so these aren't good matchups for traditional RUG Delver either. So with these things in mind, here is what I am running now:

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanics Island
1 Island
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
2 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis/Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preodain

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember

3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

SB:
3 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Submerge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sulfur Elemental

2 Mongoose: We just can't have our hands clogged up with unthreshed Mongeese that can't attack through T-NN. 2 Mongoose is really good since sometimes we need another 1-drop to apply pressure or adding 3/3 shroud for G to the board can just be pretty good. Losing 2 Mongeese is certainly an issue for the traditional RUG build in the mirror, but the traditional RUG build is not good enough for the current meta.

-0 Stifle, 3 Spell Snare: Stifling opponents to keep them off mana while attacking with Nimble Mongoose just doesn't work anymore as I discussed above. The good news is that Spell Snare actually does something and that trading 1 mana for 2 is great tempo.

-2 T-NN/Clique: We do need another threat that can attack through T-NN and Clique and/or T-NN are our only real options. I am not really sure if Clique or True-Name is better at this point. Clique flies over Moat and can be played at instant speed but is bad against the Karakas and is more fragile. T-NN has more protection and punches through better, but the sorcery speed of T-NN isn't great but isn't a huge problem(the card is our late game and usually tapping out for it the late game after playing the rest of our hand is usually fine). It's a pretty close decision and running one of each has been fine as well for me.

-1 Island, 2 Preordain: The extra Island is important for playing our 3 drops. Less non-blue spells in the deck make it better, it also gives something to help with the tradional RUG mirror. I am running Preordain over Gitaxian Probe or anything else because it is important to prevent ourselves from flooding with the extra mana as well as ensuring we can get to 3 mana to cast our 3 drops. Although, Gitaxian Probe is great for telling you when to hold up Spell Snare.

I have been having lots of success in the 2 man-queue on MODO with this list. I started with Patriot Delver list and cut Stoneforge Mystic for Tarmogoyf and Swords to Plowshares for Dismember and Spell Snare. It became apparent another one drop was needed so put Mongoose back in and it works very well as a 2-of. I think my build is way better than Patriot Delver, Stoneforge Mystic is slow and clunky and Swords to Plowshares is antithetical to getting your opponent to zero. I only run 19 Lands, I run Spell Snare and have 3 more instants to flip Delver of Secrets with. I know that Mongoose is the sacred cow, but there are real problems with the traditional RUG build in the current meta. If you are in a scrubby meta that hasn't adapted to True-Name Nemesis, I don't really care about your opinion.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

@BKclassic and all: If TNN is really that warping, and if there really isn't time to wait until Mongoose grows, is Jace's Phantasm (and the appripriate md setting) viable? It would need Head Drill, though, or maybe rather Vision Charm and... Phyrexian Dreadnought.

[DragoFireheart]

@BKclassic and all: If TNN is really that warping, and if there really isn't time to wait until Mongoose grows, is Jace's Phantasm (and the appripriate md setting) viable? It would need Head Drill, though, or maybe rather Vision Charm and... Phyrexian Dreadnought.

No.

[Lemnear]

So I have developed a build of RUG that I consider to be pretty good in the current True-Name metagame. If you aren't aware, the effect True-Name Nemesis is having on the meta is that all mid-range blue decks are built around True-Name Nemesis because it is the ultimate mid range trump. However, this creates a hole in the meta game for decks that can survive mid-range assault and trump T-NN with an even bigger end game, Jund Depths is the perfect example of this. The traditional build of RUG Delver we have all been playing (12 creatures, Stifle) is not very effective in this metagame. Stifle and Wasteland is not enough to keep our opponents from resolving True-Name Nemesis if they want to and Nimble Mongoose does not attack effectively into T-NN. The slower decks that can trump T-NN are built to survive Stifle/Wasteland/Daze so these aren't good matchups for traditional RUG Delver either. So with these things in mind, here is what I am running now:

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanics Island
1 Island
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
2 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis/Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preodain

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember

3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

SB:
3 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Submerge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sulfur Elemental

2 Mongoose: We just can't have our hands clogged up with unthreshed Mongeese that can't attack through T-NN. 2 Mongoose is really good since sometimes we need another 1-drop to apply pressure or adding 3/3 shroud for G to the board can just be pretty good. Losing 2 Mongeese is certainly an issue for the traditional RUG build in the mirror, but the traditional RUG build is not good enough for the current meta.

-0 Stifle, 3 Spell Snare: Stifling opponents to keep them off mana while attacking with Nimble Mongoose just doesn't work anymore as I discussed above. The good news is that Spell Snare actually does something and that trading 1 mana for 2 is great tempo.

-2 T-NN/Clique: We do need another threat that can attack through T-NN and Clique and/or T-NN are our only real options. I am not really sure if Clique or True-Name is better at this point. Clique flies over Moat and can be played at instant speed but is bad against the Karakas and is more fragile. T-NN has more protection and punches through better, but the sorcery speed of T-NN isn't great but isn't a huge problem(the card is our late game and usually tapping out for it the late game after playing the rest of our hand is usually fine). It's a pretty close decision and running one of each has been fine as well for me.

-1 Island, 2 Preordain: The extra Island is important for playing our 3 drops. Less non-blue spells in the deck make it better, it also gives something to help with the tradional RUG mirror. I am running Preordain over Gitaxian Probe or anything else because it is important to prevent ourselves from flooding with the extra mana as well as ensuring we can get to 3 mana to cast our 3 drops. Although, Gitaxian Probe is great for telling you when to hold up Spell Snare.

I have been having lots of success in the 2 man-queue on MODO with this list. I started with Patriot Delver list and cut Stoneforge Mystic for Tarmogoyf and Swords to Plowshares for Dismember and Spell Snare. It became apparent another one drop was needed so put Mongoose back in and it works very well as a 2-of. I think my build is way better than Patriot Delver, Stoneforge Mystic is slow and clunky and Swords to Plowshares is antithetical to getting your opponent to zero. I only run 19 Lands, I run Spell Snare and have 3 more instants to flip Delver of Secrets with. I know that Mongoose is the sacred cow, but there are real problems with the traditional RUG build in the current meta. If you are in a scrubby meta that hasn't adapted to True-Name Nemesis, I don't really care about your opinion.

TNN doesn't work well with Wasteland and I don't see how this list should get grip of TNN or top it if you reduce cost efficient creatures for additional cantrips and 3cc cards which conflict with your Tempo plan and Dazes

[BKclassic]

TNN doesn't work well with Wasteland and I don't see how this list should get grip of TNN or top it if you reduce cost efficient creatures for additional cantrips and 3cc cards which conflict with your Tempo plan and Dazes

I don't know what to tell you dude, Patriot Delver already runs Daze Wasteland and TNN and is a good deck. Cost efficient creatures are only good if they can actually attack your opponent and Mongoose simply doesn't get the job done anymore. TNN is merely our late game, there is no need to rush it out as soon as possible. Do you actually play any RUG? It doesn't seem like you've played Nimble Mongoose against that Bertoncini style Deathblade too much.

It is true that I am suggesting changes that take RUG Delver from being a pure tempo deck. TNN has warped the meta away from where a pure tempo deck is viable. My build is simply a more tempo orientated version of the Patriot Delver deck. It's possible I should label my build "Next Level RUG" and post it in a separate thread, but the RUG Delver builds we've been playing no longer cut it, and some changes are going to have to happen.

[Lemnear]

I don't know what to tell you dude, Patriot Delver already runs Daze Wasteland and TNN and is a good deck. Cost efficient creatures are only good if they can actually attack your opponent and Mongoose simply doesn't get the job done anymore. TNN is merely our late game, there is no need to rush it out as soon as possible. Do you actually play any RUG? It doesn't seem like you've played Nimble Mongoose against that Bertoncini style Deathblade too much.

It is true that I am suggesting changes that take RUG Delver from being a pure tempo deck. TNN has warped the meta away from where a pure tempo deck is viable. My build is simply a more tempo orientated version of the Patriot Delver deck. It's possible I should label my build "Next Level RUG" and post it in a separate thread, but the RUG Delver builds we've been playing no longer cut it, and some changes are going to have to happen.

You miss that UWR Delver is more of a midrange deck than tempo, using it's Dazes different than typical tempo decks and dismissed Stifle in the process as you can't really profit from a potential tempo gain in the first 3 turns. TNN + Bolts won't beat TNN + SFM in the showdown and you also miss the effect on Mongeese-shrout against Lightning Bolts, Punishing Fire and Swords to Plowshares.

I don't either know what your problem is with Mongeese in the Deathblade matchup. Dealing with their SFM and mana is the deciding point, not if you run Goose or Goyf.

Please google the term "Next Level" in regards to MTG. Cutting Stifle to add more Cantrips and counter isn't "next level" Your list offers nothing to sidestep or trump UWR, nor does the list have really anything in common, starting with only having half the removal nor any gamebreakers like equipment. I can't fit an increased number of cantrips to "a more tempo orientated version of the Patriot Delver deck" either.

If you really want to "next level" RUG Delver in the mirror and against other Delver decks I suggest radical approaches like Punishing Fire to break Tarmogoyf staredowns and shooting down opposing Delver, DRS, Confidant, SFM, Planeswalker, etc. (not saying this is brilliant or the way to go, just an example of "next leveling")

[BKclassic]

You miss that UWR Delver is more of a midrange deck than tempo, using it's Dazes different than typical tempo decks and dismissed Stifle in the process as you can't really profit from a potential tempo gain in the first 3 turns. TNN + Bolts won't beat TNN + SFM in the showdown and you also miss the effect on Mongeese-shrout against Lightning Bolts, Punishing Fire and Swords to Plowshares.

TNN + Goyf + Geese + Spell Snare + Ancient Grudge + Life from the Loam will absolutely beat them if you are the more competent pilot. The best part is countering Rest in Peace with Spell Snare. Our own True-Name Nemesis have protection from target player which includes the things you mentioned.

I don't either know what your problem is with Mongeese in the Deathblade matchup. Dealing with their SFM and mana is the deciding point, not if you run Goose or Goyf.

If we want to be able to finish off opponents, we need to be able to kill them through True-Name Nemesis. The crux of the issue is that once True-Name Nemesis enters the battlefield it can easily neutralize our combination of Nimble Mongoose and Tarmogoyf/Nimble Mongoose (they just block the goose and then chump block goyf/goose), this is just crushing in the late game when you are running out of cards. We need to minimize our threats that can't punch through a True-Name Nemesis. Also note that I do run 2 Nimble Mongoose and I that am typically just as pleased to draw them as I am not to be flooded by them.

Please google the term "Next Level" in regards to MTG. Cutting Stifle to add more Cantrips and counter isn't "next level" Your list offers nothing to sidestep or trump UWR, nor does the list have really anything in common, starting with only having half the removal nor any gamebreakers like equipment. I can't fit an increased number of cantrips to "a more tempo orientated version of the Patriot Delver deck" either.

The origins of "Next Level" is Next Level Blue the extended deck by Patrick Chapin, but it basically just means a mostly blue deck playing Tarmogoyfs that isn't built purely for tempo. http://www.starcitygames.com/article/15202_Innovations---Introducing-Next-Level-Blue.html

There's a thread right here on the source for it: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18865-Deck-Next-Level-Threshold&highlight=the+next+level+blue

If you really want to "next level" RUG Delver in the mirror and against other Delver decks I suggest radical approaches like Punishing Fire to break Tarmogoyf staredowns and shooting down opposing Delver, DRS, Confidant, SFM, Planeswalker, etc. (not saying this is brilliant or the way to go, just an example of "next leveling")

The difference between you and me here is that I am giving suggestions that are actually useful to people trying to win magic games. Anyone who has attempted to play traditional RUG Delver against the current metagame decks will recognize that the deck is not positioned like it once was. I will say that you may be right that Preordain should just be Gitaxian Probe. In truth, I use Gitaxian Probe when I play online, but the biggest way I seem to lose games is by flooding to much on one resource or not being able to get enough of another, and Preordain seems like the best card to rectify that.

[that0neguy]

@BKclassic

Why cut mongeese before tarmogoyfs? To me it seems like Mongeese untargetability is more important than ever against the TNN decks that are using either swords or abrupt decay. Goyf can't attack or block a TNN either.

I think you hugely underestimate stifle too. If you are cutting stifle because it supposedly does not interact with TNN, why would you replace it with spell snare, which litterally does not interact with TNN or any of the counterspells that would be protecting TNN. At least Stifle, can stall TNN, and potentially mana screw them, and makes daze/spell pierce better fighting a TNN counterwar. Also, both stifle and spell pierce counter RIP.

You also say that trading 1 mana for 2 mana is a good tempo boost, but stifle can eat up a ton more than 2 mana and more time when stifling a germ token, fetchland, jitte/sword trigger. Stifle can still counter the search trigger on SFM.



I think that in general, if you are going to try and take a step away from tempo, it is better to just move into UWR, esper, or BUG TNN decks that will have access to better positioned removal spells like edicts and -x/-x effects. The reason to stay in red is that our removal spells can go to the head and speed up the clock. If you are not trying to kill as quickly as possible, I would just take the better removal suites offered by the other colors.

[carefulmug]

In battling TNN/Batterskull decks (and more), I'd like to suggest once more the inclusion of 2x Ensnare in SBs, particularly if players are considering cutting some number of Submerge. Similar, but not identical, it would serve best as a deciding blow, saving ourselves damage while opening up the ground against non-green decks.

Nonetheless, I do not suggest a full replacement. With BUG on the rise, and Elves still a contender, it would be in poor mind to eliminate Submerge entirely.

[that0neguy]

It seems like the problem with ensare would be that you basically need to be in a situation where you are going to make a lethal attack very soon after resolving it. In the case of batterskull, that might not really be in the cards depending on how many turns bs has been on board.

It seems to me that it is better to just fight the batterskull with artifact removal out of the side.

It seems like it would be better in something like the mirror than against patriot.

[Lemnear]

stuff

1) Lol ... I don't see how Geese, Goofy, LftL and Ancient Grudge beat SFM + TNN + RIP + Equipment. To hint at 2 TNN if they have 8 removal for your Delver and Goofies is a joke of an argument

2) you talk about "killing through TNN, still your list does not offer cards to do so other than Delver, Bolts and 2 TNN. You also miss that Jitte and Batterskull can spoil your soup too

3) I know about the Origin, but that's not what I was talking about. I said you might google for what the term "next level" stands in chapins deck Design overall and it's not "running Tarmogoyf". It's a term used for "sidestepping or topping the metagame with certain Design choices".

4) you seem to be the only one who thinks Punishing Fire is bad in the current metagame just because it can't handle 1 of dozens of common played creatures. You don't think that killing creatures in the way and push through with Mongeese/Goofy is a valid strategy?

5) I don't have a fucking clue why you think that removing Tempo Elements from a pure Tempo deck but adding cantrips and inferiot lategame options (compared to to Tombstalker or SFM+TNN combo) is next leveling the metagame and might deserve an own thread. Imo, this discussion is as productive as the retarded talk about splashing white in Punishing Jund to play the new hatebear...

[Bed Decks Palyer]

If you really want to "next level" RUG Delver in the mirror and against other Delver decks I suggest radical approaches like Punishing Fire to break Tarmogoyf staredowns and shooting down opposing Delver, DRS, Confidant, SFM, Planeswalker, etc. (not saying this is brilliant or the way to go, just an example of "next leveling")
I'm still tinkering with Vexing Thresh, but results are... unsatisfactory. :rolleyes:



The difference between you and me here is that I am giving suggestions that are actually useful to people trying to win magic games. Anyone who has attempted to play traditional RUG Delver against the current metagame decks will recognize that the deck is not positioned like it once was. I will say that you may be right that Preordain should just be Gitaxian Probe. In truth, I use Gitaxian Probe when I play online, but the biggest way I seem to lose games is by flooding to much on one resource or not being able to get enough of another, and Preordain seems like the best card to rectify that.
Yeah, i got serious problems to win anything for the last year or so. I'm not sure if it's linked exclusively to TNN (it was pritned when, November?), but I also feel that RUG lost a bit of its power, esp. when there are too many hosers (like RiP, Thalia) and must-counters (SFM->BSkull, Terminus and ok, TNN).
I didn't try your list yet, bu from what I feel, I think Preordain is better than Probe.



Why cut mongeese before tarmogoyfs? To me it seems like Mongeese untargetability is more important than ever against the TNN decks that are using either swords or abrupt decay. Goyf can't attack or block a TNN either.
If you go this way, maybe Troll Ascetic could be used instead of Goyf? But I need to admit that it's my pet card, so don't take it too seriously.
Thrun?


Btw, I'd love if people stop using term "next level".


Vexing Thresh it test:

Qty Name
// Lands
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Cephalid Coliseum
//\\
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Vexing Sphinx
1 Vendilion Clique
//\\
// Spells
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
2 Life from the Loam
//\\
// Sideboard
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Artifact Mutation
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sulfur Elemental


There should be Intuition somewhere in it. Sb is just a port from usual RUG and should be thought out better, I think 2x Jitte should be there, maybe even main. And yes, maybe TNN would be better than Sphinx, and yes, maybe the creature count is low, and yes, only three Wastes and yes, no Mongoose, becasue w/e the reason (bad Jitte carrier?).

[Contract Killer]

I think that additional cantrips/filters above the base eight are redundnat. Yep, GP information are huge, but do they outweight the fact that you have less removal for DRS or less counterspells for SnT/IT? I'm not sure. The only thing that really matters is the Delver/Stifle dilemma. Also, 4-6 dmg count.
Sylvan Library is a powerful yet slow card that works better in slower decks. It doesn't do anything on turn it is played and it just replaces itself on the next turn, unless one may spend some lives. It's CQ engine, no doubts (at least in deck with eight fetches and four Ponders), and it may bring some CA (if there are enough life total), but I still think that I'd play GP/Head Drill before Library... and in fact I'd play additional reach/counterspells.
But I may be wrong, after all, I finished 0:2 drop yesterday, so who am I to blather. :laugh:

And yes, Snare is sick. I will never ever play without one.

@Bed Decks Palyer:
I would still recommend at least trying Sylvan Library. I always thought a fourth goyf would be better, but the card quality you get with library is amazing. Sure it sucks against some decks because it's too slow, but against more grindy match ups like Jund, Esper Stoneblade, etc it's great. For example, when playing against Esper at my last lgs legacy tournament I was able to pay 4 life to grab both the dismember and spell pierce backup to deal with the batterskull my opponent played with 1 mana up (I suspected spell pierce was in one of his 3 cards). I mean in the long match ups like that being able to draw multiple outs or find another threat after supreme verdict or terminus really helps.

Another thing I think K-grip just isn't good enough anymore to make the sideboard tech. I mean unless you plan to play against counterbalance or lots of tezzerators with chalice at 1 there's no reason to pack K-grip over ancient grudge. Grudge is essentially 1 mana less at face value then K-grip or at the worst K-grip with seudo split second saying "requires to counterspells".

As for the TNN problem right now I'm thinking of trying skullcrack. At worst it comes out of nowhere against batterskull and makes combat math harder for them. On the other side it can kill TNN, but the necessity of attacking into is annoying since goose will not live through it. Sapphire's Charm is another option to temporarily fly over TNN, cycle, or permanently remove batterskull I just don't like how it's just a temporary swing with goyf or goose past TNN.

[Tom]

Hello gentlemen,

this is my first post in this thread, but I have been reading it the whole time.

My version of the deck runs Young Pyromancer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370600).

I do this for several reasons:

- Pyro does not die to any graveyard hate
- Pyro does not cost more than we want to spend on a critter
- Pyro generates card anvantage
- Pyro Tokens block opposing Goyfs all day
- Tokens are awesome against Liliana
- Every spell we play gains even more value

I am aware of the fact that Pyromancer dies to basically any removal spell. I just feel like this is not that big of a deal as if Goyf gets killed, because we can still make tokens in response.
It is not as explosive (or big), but more versatile and - in a way - more resilient against spells.

What I am not sure about yet is the number. I tried a split between 2 Pyros/2 Goyfs which to me seemed to be the most promising combination. Currently I actually play 4 Pyromancers. People do not see it coming. Sure, sometimes you just wish to have a big lethal creature, but often times I found myself very lucky to NOT have drawn a goyf, but little Pyroman instead.

I have only tested it only, but I played it very often and my results have been very nice so far (approx. 65 - 70 % wins).


Am I wrong? :smile:

[Contract Killer]

The more and more I think about it why should RUG stay RUG? I mean it's not particularly favored in the current meta with everyone running TNN. BURG at least currently just seems like the next logical evolution of RUG. It's runs 99% of the same core shell minus tarmogoyf depending on which builds you look at. The advantages are having access to powerful sideboard cards that actually solve our current problem rather then trying to find work-arounds.

Having access to cards like Fire Covenant and Golgari Charm allow for much better match ups post board.

Another huge advantage is Deathrite Shaman. He allows for very powerful tempo sequences by negating the downsides of our tempo cards like wasteland and daze. In addition he shoots through TNN or stems the blood loss to a manageable 1 a turn.

I haven't tested the deck enough to know how stable the mana is against other mana denial decks (this is also why the build below has 4 deathrites), but it seems good. I could be wrong in saying this is the next evolution of rug, but do you guys see any other routes of attack in the RUG shell against TNN based decks?

Instant (25)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
2 Spell Snare
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember

Sorcery (4)
4 Ponder

Enchantment (1)
Sylvan Library

Land (18)
8 Fetches
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

Creatures (12)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose

Sideboard (15)
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Artifact Mutation
2 Fire Covenant
2 Flusterstorm
2 Golgari Charm
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Life From the Loam
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pyroblast
2 Submerge

Special thanks to Sasan as this list is based from his BURG Tempo thread.

[MethadronGer]

I think burg is played since a year and if you look at the top 8 decks in this time there are a lot of rug but no burg decks.
Please let rug stay rug, if someone want to discuss burg there is a thread called burg. This is rug.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

@Bed Decks Palyer:
I would still recommend at least trying Sylvan Library. I always thought a fourth goyf would be better, but the card quality you get with library is amazing...

Another thing I think K-grip just isn't good enough anymore to make the sideboard tech. I mean unless you plan to play against counterbalance or lots of tezzerators with chalice at 1 there's no reason to pack K-grip over ancient grudge. Grudge is essentially 1 mana less at face value then K-grip or at the worst K-grip with seudo split second saying "requires to counterspells".

As for the TNN problem right now I'm thinking of trying skullcrack. At worst it comes out of nowhere against batterskull and makes combat math harder for them. On the other side it can kill TNN, but the necessity of attacking into is annoying since goose will not live through it. Sapphire's Charm is another option to temporarily fly over TNN, cycle, or permanently remove batterskull I just don't like how it's just a temporary swing with goyf or goose past TNN.

I may cut one Goyf. It's not necessary to play four of them, but on the other hand, I'm not really thrilled of eleven creatures either. Maybe I'll cut the secondary burn to just two slots. No matter what, I think it's a md-or-nothing card, I don't feel like I want to have it in sb and to take it in "only when it matters": either it's too good to matter everytime, or it's not good enough to to occupy slot. Yep, I may cut it against say Burn, but that's about it. I want all my chances to win the attrition matchups, and if Library might help, then I want it g1.
Ok, I'll give it one last chance! :smile: You convinced me.

On KGrip: as long as RiP and CB exists, I'm fine with the slot. Against Miracles we have lots of time to cantrip into KGrip (unless when speaking of RiP, it's much more difficult when CB hits, ofc.) and to play our lands. Against DnT/Mav the lands (and potential Thalia) might be trouble, otoh, we don't need to be afraid of stack interaction so we may cantrip at will, at least until SotL sees play.

I don't like Skullcrack, it's really narrow and it's one shot. Also the fact that it doesn't work as a removal makes it pretty weak and complicates the deck building, unless you wish to rely on mere four to five real removal. Imho the goal is to not let the TNN resolve, and the best plan is to lock the opponent of game, as it also (at least partially) stops CB+Top, maybe Clique, Jace (without doubts).

Saphire Charm targets, so it can't help Mongoose. I'm considering Wonder, but there's no way how to get it into gy, and something like UGr/w Lion's Eye Madness is a deck of past. Is there any other way how to give all creatures flying/trample/unblockability?




Am I wrong? :smile:
No, you're not.
Esp. considering that real aggro is nonexistant, maybe the Goyfs might be trimmed to three and YP might be used. I'm not sure if four is necessary, on one hand I feel that we need the card asap to get value of it, otoh, I'm not sure how to design the maindeck then. A guy in our lgs used a BURG with something like 4 Delver, 3 DRS, 3 Mongoose, 1 Grim, 2 Goyf, 3 Pyro and he had quite some success.
Personally, I wouldn't go below three Goyfs, as it's a great wall and solid topdeck, while Pyromancer lacks these two abilities.



The more and more I think about it why should RUG stay RUG?
Because of stable manabase? I think that's the only reason. And DRS maybe blanks this argument.

I never played BURG, so I can't tell, maybe it's better. I don't have cards for it (I sold my last USea and last UB fetch on the GP), and I don't have Taiga ever since I decided to trim down my collection; I also don't plan to expand it anymore. So for me it's RUG-or-nothing. Not that this should matter, this is a forum for competitive Legacy and budget/personal concerns shouldn't be taken into account.

As noted, I'm not even sure if "stable manabase" is a real argument, as DRS fixes the troubles and moreover helps with tempo advantage and is a wincon and is a utility card and is an early Mongoose/Lackey wall. So yep, looks like BURG is the way to go, unless something drastic happens.
Btw, the list you've posted plays zero Spell Pierces and zero Goyfs. I don't think it's good approach, but then again: I never played the deck.

[BKclassic]

1) Lol ... I don't see how Geese, Goofy, LftL and Ancient Grudge beat SFM + TNN + RIP + Equipment. To hint at 2 TNN if they have 8 removal for your Delver and Goofies is a joke of an argument

2) you talk about "killing through TNN, still your list does not offer cards to do so other than Delver, Bolts and 2 TNN. You also miss that Jitte and Batterskull can spoil your soup too

It's really not that crazy. Tarmogoyf and Spell Snare trump Stoneforge Mystic, the rest of the decks basically cancel each other out.

3) I know about the Origin, but that's not what I was talking about. I said you might google for what the term "next level" stands in chapins deck Design overall and it's not "running Tarmogoyf". It's a term used for "sidestepping or topping the metagame with certain Design choices".

So you can't see the resemblance between what I posted and what is in the Next Level Threshold thread?

4) you seem to be the only one who thinks Punishing Fire is bad in the current metagame just because it can't handle 1 of dozens of common played creatures. You don't think that killing creatures in the way and push through with Mongeese/Goofy is a valid strategy?

Believe it or not, people have actually thought of adding Punishing Fire to RUG Delver, and there is a reason nobody continues to do so, it is a terrible in RUG Delver.

5) I don't have a fucking clue why you think that removing Tempo Elements from a pure Tempo deck but adding cantrips and inferiot lategame options (compared to to Tombstalker or SFM+TNN combo) is next leveling the metagame and might deserve an own thread. Imo, this discussion is as productive as the retarded talk about splashing white in Punishing Jund to play the new hatebear...

What I've done is replaced one tempo card (Stifle) with another (Spell Snare) and changed the creature base so it doesn't get blown out by True-Name Nemesis. You want people to hide there head in the sand and keep running a build which is not putting up results. It's not just SCG circuit either, check the daily events on What's Happening page for MODO.

[BKclassic]

@BKclassic

Why cut mongeese before tarmogoyfs? To me it seems like Mongeese untargetability is more important than ever against the TNN decks that are using either swords or abrupt decay. Goyf can't attack or block a TNN either.

2 Tarmogoyfs can attack through TNN where Nimble Mongoose + Nimbe Mongoose/Tarmgoyf can't, this is the key issue. We can't typically afford to have 2 of our creatures held at bay by TNN

I think you hugely underestimate stifle too. If you are cutting stifle because it supposedly does not interact with TNN, why would you replace it with spell snare, which litterally does not interact with TNN or any of the counterspells that would be protecting TNN. At least Stifle, can stall TNN, and potentially mana screw them, and makes daze/spell pierce better fighting a TNN counterwar. Also, both stifle and spell pierce counter RIP.

You also say that trading 1 mana for 2 mana is a good tempo boost, but stifle can eat up a ton more than 2 mana and more time when stifling a germ token, fetchland, jitte/sword trigger. Stifle can still counter the search trigger on SFM.

Stifle is certainly a reasonable card and you could cram some into my version my version of the deck. Make no mistake, I have been playing 4 Stifle 4 Nimble Mongoose Thresh for a few years now and until TNN was released I thought it was the best deck in the format. However, trying to keep our opponent's off balance with Stifle is just not viable like it once was.

I think that in general, if you are going to try and take a step away from tempo, it is better to just move into UWR, esper, or BUG TNN decks that will have access to better positioned removal spells like edicts and -x/-x effects. The reason to stay in red is that our removal spells can go to the head and speed up the clock. If you are not trying to kill as quickly as possible, I would just take the better removal suites offered by the other colors.

I'm not really trying to take step away from tempo, just make a few changes to keep it viable. This build just maginally less tempo orientated than before.

[Contract Killer]

Hello gentlemen,

this is my first post in this thread, but I have been reading it the whole time.

My version of the deck runs Young Pyromancer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370600).

I do this for several reasons:

- Pyro does not die to any graveyard hate
- Pyro does not cost more than we want to spend on a critter
- Pyro generates card anvantage
- Pyro Tokens block opposing Goyfs all day
- Tokens are awesome against Liliana
- Every spell we play gains even more value

I am aware of the fact that Pyromancer dies to basically any removal spell. I just feel like this is not that big of a deal as if Goyf gets killed, because we can still make tokens in response.
It is not as explosive (or big), but more versatile and - in a way - more resilient against spells.

What I am not sure about yet is the number. I tried a split between 2 Pyros/2 Goyfs which to me seemed to be the most promising combination. Currently I actually play 4 Pyromancers. People do not see it coming. Sure, sometimes you just wish to have a big lethal creature, but often times I found myself very lucky to NOT have drawn a goyf, but little Pyroman instead.

I have only tested it only, but I played it very often and my results have been very nice so far (approx. 65 - 70 % wins).


Am I wrong? :smile:

A word of warning while Young Pyromancer allows for explosive starts the further into mid to late game you get the worse he is. In addition he only allows minimal damage through if they have a blocker since they can slowly remove your army. Another issue is a lot of the answers to TNN that some decks are packing supreme verdicts, golgari charm and toxic deluge really hurt pyromancer where some of them would blank against goyf.


I may cut one Goyf. It's not necessary to play four of them, but on the other hand, I'm not really thrilled of eleven creatures either. Maybe I'll cut the secondary burn to just two slots. No matter what, I think it's a md-or-nothing card, I don't feel like I want to have it in sb and to take it in "only when it matters": either it's too good to matter everytime, or it's not good enough to to occupy slot. Yep, I may cut it against say Burn, but that's about it. I want all my chances to win the attrition matchups, and if Library might help, then I want it g1.
Ok, I'll give it one last chance! :smile: You convinced me.

On KGrip: as long as RiP and CB exists, I'm fine with the slot. Against Miracles we have lots of time to cantrip into KGrip (unless when speaking of RiP, it's much more difficult when CB hits, ofc.) and to play our lands. Against DnT/Mav the lands (and potential Thalia) might be trouble, otoh, we don't need to be afraid of stack interaction so we may cantrip at will, at least until SotL sees play.

I don't like Skullcrack, it's really narrow and it's one shot. Also the fact that it doesn't work as a removal makes it pretty weak and complicates the deck building, unless you wish to rely on mere four to five real removal. Imho the goal is to not let the TNN resolve, and the best plan is to lock the opponent of game, as it also (at least partially) stops CB+Top, maybe Clique, Jace (without doubts).

Saphire Charm targets, so it can't help Mongoose. I'm considering Wonder, but there's no way how to get it into gy, and something like UGr/w Lion's Eye Madness is a deck of past. Is there any other way how to give all creatures flying/trample/unblockability?



No, you're not.
Esp. considering that real aggro is nonexistant, maybe the Goyfs might be trimmed to three and YP might be used. I'm not sure if four is necessary, on one hand I feel that we need the card asap to get value of it, otoh, I'm not sure how to design the maindeck then. A guy in our lgs used a BURG with something like 4 Delver, 3 DRS, 3 Mongoose, 1 Grim, 2 Goyf, 3 Pyro and he had quite some success.
Personally, I wouldn't go below three Goyfs, as it's a great wall and solid topdeck, while Pyromancer lacks these two abilities.



Because of stable manabase? I think that's the only reason. And DRS maybe blanks this argument.

I never played BURG, so I can't tell, maybe it's better. I don't have cards for it (I sold my last USea and last UB fetch on the GP), and I don't have Taiga ever since I decided to trim down my collection; I also don't plan to expand it anymore. So for me it's RUG-or-nothing. Not that this should matter, this is a forum for competitive Legacy and budget/personal concerns shouldn't be taken into account.

As noted, I'm not even sure if "stable manabase" is a real argument, as DRS fixes the troubles and moreover helps with tempo advantage and is a wincon and is a utility card and is an early Mongoose/Lackey wall. So yep, looks like BURG is the way to go, unless something drastic happens.
Btw, the list you've posted plays zero Spell Pierces and zero Goyfs. I don't think it's good approach, but then again: I never played the deck.

BURG definitely seems really well positioned right now, but as I've been told let's discuss it no further and stick to RUG. I would recommend if interested to read Sasan's primer in established decks.

Trust me Library is worth at least a shot. The thing is with rug you don't really need card advantage. The deck has never had any form of card advantage it's always just ran with it's opening 7 with ponders and brainstorms to find what it's missing. Library is just an extension of this plan that gets very powerful late game on finding singletons against grindy match ups.

K-grip seems so unnecessary unless you plan to play against counterbalance. Even if you run into Rest in Peace against UWR delver how many times after destroying it do you think you'll be able to reach threshold again? I guess it makes goyf not dead and at least a 2/3, but if they haven't beaten you down with a 4/4 germ or 3/1 TNN I would be surprised. It has some merit to be noted against Maverick if they plan to sandbag jitte counters, but I think Grudge is just better. If Counterbalance makes a comeback and is more popular I'll try it again, but counterbalance is so bad against abrupt decay that most people have shied away from it.

I wouldn't try Wonder it would require jamming something like Thought Scour (Head Drill) to be effective and is still removed easily by Deathrite and Rest In Peace. It almost just seems worth it to jam more pyroblast/Red elemental blast in the sideboard for TNN hate. There's really no effective answer and at worst some of our combo match ups become really good. In addition it helps by hitting can trips and I could be wrong, but sometimes that seems like the best line of attack against other tempo decks. Ensnare discussed early on this thread also seems pretty good too. It lets us be less conservative in over extending with our lands because we can bounce two lands. On the other hand it's so all in that it only allows for a very narrow window, but if they're trying to stabilize with TNN that might be all we need to finish the game.

[that0neguy]

@BKclassic

I could see that logic for taking out geese before tarmogoyf's I guess.

I just don't get how spell snare makes you better able to fight a TNN. RUG has dealt with SFM for years, but now you are taking out something that can potentially interact through mana denial for something that literally does not interact with TNN, and weakens your mu against other decks.



I would also wonder if the TNN plan is nessacary main deck. I run 2 TNN in the SB and bring them in when needed.

[BKclassic]

@BKclassic

I could see that logic for taking out geese before tarmogoyf's I guess.

I just don't get how spell snare makes you better able to fight a TNN. RUG has dealt with SFM for years, but now you are taking out something that can potentially interact through mana denial for something that literally does not interact with TNN, and weakens your mu against other decks.



I would also wonder if the TNN plan is nessacary main deck. I run 2 TNN in the SB and bring them in when needed.


To be clear, Stifle is still an okay card in the Death Blade matchup, rearranging the threats to not get wiped out by a single TNN is the most relevant change in that matchup. If it was just that match up alone that was the issue, Stifles might be the right call. But the decks to beat on MODO right now (in no particular order) are UW Miracles, Jund Depths, GB Depths, Patriot Delver, Deathblade and Elves as well as random slower decks with strong end games like UG Cloudpost and wierd Stax decks and Spell Snare is mostly better against these decks. On MODO, RUG has been historically a deck to beat so most good players have some kind of game plan Stifle and Wasteland, and most opponents have some kind of plan for the assault on their mana. You could argue that my advice is a little MODO-centric, but the kind of changes I am endorsing are certainly the sort the need to be considered if you want to win a competitive tournament. If you just need to crush your local scrubby metagame, 4 Mongoose 4 Stifle build is most likely fine if not better.

[that0neguy]

They might have a plan for mana denial strategies, but so does everyone. Looking back over the last couple years, RUG has been consistently in the top 3 most played/successful archetypes, and despite that the stifle plan is stile powerful enough to stay there. Despite people knowing about the mana denial plan, people still have and still will play fetchland/nonbasic manabases.

The only decks that are really significantly different in the last few months from this time are Junk depths, which only has small pox and lftl as snare targets, vs several activated abilities in the form of lands. And then the TNN decks that do not increase the value of spell snare.

You also keep talking about "our scrubby metagames" that you know nothing about, and are irrelevant to the arguments people are putting foreword.

I'm not saying that Stifle is better against goblins and 2006 bant threshold with mystic enforcers, i'm saying stifle is better against the TNN decks you say you are trying to beat. If you want to slow down, and move into a more mindrange deck - lightning bolt is going to start to lose efficacy very quickly against TNN and Marit Lages. If you slow down, spell pierce and daze lose value very quickly against 23+ land decks.

RUG is probably not the best deck in the format right now, but diluting what it does well is not going to help position it better.

[Borealis]

Surprised no one is really talking about this list:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=62707

I'm not really sure about his Sideboard, so we'll just ignore that for the most part, but it's his maindeck that's interesting.

2 copies of Vendilion Clique in place of Goyfs. I feel like this is worth discussing. Personally, I would probably still play 3 Goyfs/1 Clique main, with an extra Clique in the board, but I still think he has the right idea.

Running our own copies of TNN doesn't really seem optimal, since we don't have a way to buff them, and 3 mana is a bit rugged for a main-phase only spell. Typically other TNN decks will have the better TNN, since they are optimized to resolve them sooner (with more copies and more lands), and they generally run equipment to make TNN a true threat.

Vendilion Clique, meanwhile, is a reasonable threat for us whether or not we're facing an opposing TNN deck. It flies over most threats, supporting the Delvers and Bolts plan when needed, but it also provides valuable disruption. Against Combo/Control, Clique is far better than TNN for us, since we can disrupt their key plays and see their hand. Against TNN decks, we can snap away their equipment or TNN before it resolves. Clique doesn't block Aggro decks all day long like TNN might, but this deck was never really in the market for a Wall of Denial anyway. Casting Clique at EOT or during a draw step is much MUCH better for this deck than resolving a mainphase 3/1 dork with no ETB ability. Yes, it dies to Bolt, but that is about the only downside to the card, and we are already used to our threats dying to 1-mana removal spells. In general, I think it's a stronger choice than just jamming you own TNNs.

Maybe I'm off the mark, but it seems to me that Clique is a good maindeck/sideboard answer to help fight the meta, especially if TNN decks are ruining your day.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I like Clique. What I dislike is less than three Goyfs. Any idea how to build the deck with 3 Goyfs and two Cliques? I don't want to cut Mongoose, it's perfect against control. Maybe just five removal?

[Borealis]

I like Clique. What I dislike is less than three Goyfs. Any idea how to build the deck with 3 Goyfs and two Cliques? I don't want to cut Mongoose, it's perfect against control. Maybe just five removal?

No like I said, I think you run 3 Goyf, 1 Clique main deck, and the second Clique in the board. I mean if you're feeling threat light in general, squeezing in the 13th creature slot is also fine. At that point cut whatever card you hate the most.

[poxy14]

i might try out this crit configuration..

4 delvers
3 goose
3 goyfs
1 TNN (fourth goose/fow pitchable in case of an emergency)
1 V.Cliq (5th delver, evades, fow pitchable in case of an emergency)

and since im cutting my fourth goyf, i'll be leaving the TARFIRES for the meantime..
switching back to 4bolts/ 1 Fice / 2 forked bolts...

with multiple versatile burn, it should give me the confidence to battle annoying white creatures especially the new BOTG anti brainstorm 3/1 2cc..
post board, since ive included VCliq in the main, i can replace his slot with a sulfur...

test results to follow....soon..
lately since most of Patriot.tnn.decs have left the stifle plan.. upon testing, it's been rare i dont get to three manas.

by the way...RUG placed 2nd today (Daryl Ayers SCG Baltimore).. probeless built with more anti SFM weapons
: )

[Bed Decks Palyer]

i might try out this crit configuration..

4 delvers
3 goose
3 goyfs
1 TNN (fourth goose/fow pitchable in case of an emergency)
1 V.Cliq (5th delver, evades, fow pitchable in case of an emergency)

and since im cutting my fourth goyf, i'll be leaving the TARFIRES for the meantime..
switching back to 4bolts/ 1 Fice / 2 forked bolts...

with multiple versatile burn, it should give me the confidence to battle annoying white creatures especially the new BOTG anti brainstorm 3/1 2cc..
post board, since ive included VCliq in the main, i can replace his slot with a sulfur...

test results to follow....soon..
lately since most of Patriot.tnn.decs have left the stifle plan.. upon testing, it's been rare i dont get to three manas.

by the way...RUG placed 2nd today (Daryl Ayers SCG Baltimore).. probeless built with more anti SFM weapons
: )

Good idea,though I still dislike TNN. Sorcery speed three-mana Mongoose is not what I want. :rolleyes:
Do you have a link for that 2nd place RUG?

[Contract Killer]

Here's the link to the Baltimore RUG list http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=62814
He lost to lands in the final which isn't really surprising. I've played against it more than a few times and it's a rough match up. They can easily maze all day long while slowly blowing up your lands. In addition they have glacial chasm to buy time with when needed. The only effective way I've found to combat lands is having multiple loose gooses out that they can't do anything about except tabernacle.

Overall his list seems fine I like most of it except the 3 stifles which I think is wrong. I mean I've seen stifle-less lists before that pack more counter magic which isn't bad. On the other side stifle while sometimes completely dead when it's not it's usually back breaking. In addition it's a pseudo answer to batterskull right now as stifling the living weapon trigger buys us at least two turns. Another thing I would run dismember at least as a 1 of over 1 of the forked bolts. Just dismember allows for a bit more reach against creatures like kotr, goyf, tombstalker, germ tokens, etc., but that's probably a personal preference.

[Isre Morn]

Good idea,though I still dislike TNN. Sorcery speed three-mana Mongoose is not what I want. :rolleyes:
Do you have a link for that 2nd place RUG?

An unblockable Mongoose, that blocks like a bad guy ;) I also prefer Clique over TNN in RUG. It fits perfect in Stoneblade-Builds, not in our concept.

Here the link, I like Daryl's MD and SB, except I would run 4 Stifle. He defeated BUG Delver in Quarterfinals and Deathblade in Semifinals, good guy :D

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=62814

EDIT: somebody was typing faster than me :rolleyes:

[Tormod]

I've been running 3 stifle over 4 since November. I don't miss no desire to add the 4th back in.

[mahelfri94]

[QUOTE=Barbed Blightning;760024]Ended up 5-4 at the Seattle Open. Abysmal, barely made top 64. Two of our comrades took 1st and 6th, however.

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1167227

Sorry if I missed it somewhere, but has anyone put together a sideboard guide for this list or another that is similar with maindeck build?

[Contract Killer]

[QUOTE=Barbed Blightning;760024]Ended up 5-4 at the Seattle Open. Abysmal, barely made top 64. Two of our comrades took 1st and 6th, however.

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1167227

Sorry if I missed it somewhere, but has anyone put together a sideboard guide for this list or another that is similar with maindeck build?

Rug's sideboard plan is more or less straightforward.
Rules of thumb:

with the exception of combo decks and more or less back breaking T1 plays like chalice at 1 (tezzerator) side force out on the play

take daze out on the draw against most decks if there's something better in the side (except against other low mana decks like patriot aggro and rug then take force out and in those match ups its all about the 1 for 1 trades you don't want force)

against anything with hymn to tourach or lots of discard side out 4 forces

combo package is usually taking out burn maybe shaving 1 of the 4 goyfs depending on the deck and putting in pyroblast, flusterstorm and vendilion clique (note against storm you probably want to keep burn in and not bother siding in pyroblast)

against decks with creatures as win cons (maverick, merfolk, D&T, elves, etc) bring in rough.

decks with opposing goyfs, kotr or other similar big creatures bring in submerge (also bring this in against elves)

Bring life from the loam in against other decks with greedy mana bases (rug delver, patriot aggro, deathblade, D&T defensively here, jund, etc)

zuran orb is specifically for the burn match up, but that's more of a Jacob Wilson marque card that I don't think any other lists run

Sulfur elemental is for the D&T match up and maverick to deal with resolved mom

ancient grudge and other artifact hate comes in against stoneblade packages and artifact decks like tezzerator where t1 chalice of the void is something to seriously be feared

JTMS is a card I've never really used, but you mainly want it for the control match ups like miracles and stoneblade if I'm not mistaken, but I could be wrong.

That's pretty much it. Remember you're a tempo deck this means playing like a tempo deck: two for one with rough, submerge to take a draws when they're really behind if not save for when they shuffle, leave mana up against combo and deploy a threat never do turn 1 threat unless you have something like force and daze back up, etc.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Yep, what Contract Killer said.
There is/was an ongoing discussion on the turn 1 threat doctrine. Im quite happy playing one on most occasions, but it isn't set in stone. Esp. Mongoose is quite weak.

[trollking21]

[QUOTE=mahelfri94;786735]

combo package is usually taking out burn maybe shaving 1 of the 4 goyfs depending on the deck and putting in pyroblast, flusterstorm and vendilion clique (note against storm you probably want to keep burn in and not bother siding in pyroblast) unless you have something like force and daze back up, etc.


I like pyroblast against storm. Countering brainstorm or ponder is actually rather useful

[Bed Decks Palyer]

[QUOTE=Contract Killer;786785]


I like pyroblast against storm. Countering brainstorm or ponder is actually rather useful

I like it too, esp. against the decks with PReordains, where there is always some target.

[sawatarix]

Yep,countering cantrips is very powerful against storm because you force your opponent to draw perfectly from the top which is almost impossible.
Against TES pyroblast is a hardcounter for diminishing return from time to time.
Usually they should not play it against us but sometimes they don't have any other option.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Contract Killer]

Yep,countering cantrips is very powerful against storm because you force your opponent to draw perfectly from the top which is almost impossible.
Against TES pyroblast is a hardcounter for diminishing return from time to time.
Usually they should not play it against us but sometimes they don't have any other option.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -


[QUOTE=trollking21;787080]

I like it too, esp. against the decks with PReordains, where there is always some target.


[QUOTE=Contract Killer;786785]


I like pyroblast against storm. Countering brainstorm or ponder is actually rather useful

I do think countering cantrips is good against storm, but bolts might be better. The ability to close out the game with a bolt and to lower their ad nauseam count is really powerful. Both have their merits not sure which is better though.

[sawatarix]

The safe path is to land a thread and to gather a hand with infinite countermagic to stop your opponent from going off.(works also the other way round)
Against storm lightning bolt should be in the main 60 postboard (swarms) but can be reduced to 3 to make room for powerful counterspells)



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Bed Decks Palyer]

It all depends on your md and sb configuration. If you play burn-heavy list and have nothing else to take from sb, then it's quite solid choice. Moreover, Storm matchup is one of the few where we're not exactly beatdown (it's important to be aggressive once we assert control, but that's a different story), so every card that helps us not lose is important.

My recent md:
50 Can Thresh
4 Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
2 Fire/Ice
1 Sylvan Library

My recent sb:
Qty Name
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Artifact Mutation
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sulfur Elemental

Against Strom I'd sb like this:
-1 Bolt, -2 Fire/Ice, + 2 Pyroblast (to hit cantrips), +1 Flusterstorm (obv)
then
-4 Mongoose (slow threat,and dies to...), +2 Rough (EtW plan), +2 Cage (PiF)

I'm not a genius, so maybe this is wrong. Esp. Mongoose/Goyf decision is the one over which ppl are sometimes arguing, but for me it's easy to decide, as Mongoose is too slow and it dies to Rough, if I need to play it.

Btw, Rough/Tumble is arguably the worst card, because ETW, once resolved, has the ability to strip us of hand (due to CT flashbacks). Still, I prefer to have an answer to goblins and it's quite possible that after you fought (and lost) The Battle of EtW on stack, you may win it on the battelfield, simply by naturally drawing the spell, blindly Pondering into it, or becasue you've hid it on the top with BS, once the battle started: note that you don't need it when fighting the storm, so it's not like "gonny hide it if I'll need it", but much more "away with this nonsense, I need to BS into FoW". Moreover, if they etW on turn1 or turn2, there might be not enough CTs to completely tear our hand, and with the amount of shuffles and cantrips, Rough may show soon enough to matter.

[Contract Killer]

Let's be honest here while sideboarding is always a good choice the storm match up is the only match up in extremely in our favor. That's the thing about RUG you don't really have any favorable match ups, but lots of 50/50 match ups. Storm is our one absurdly good match up. For starters we have 8 Forces against them. What I mean by that is we have our 4 forces and then we have our 4 stifles which makes their deck fizzle. In addition we also have some number of spell pierces or snares which can both mess up their tutors. After that we also have daze which is arguably good because if we have wasteland they usually only have 1 other land available.
I remember once against storm I kept a hand that was just too much for them to fight through. It was something like Force, Stifle, Flusterstorm, spell pierce, fetch Ponder brainstorm. He did turn one probe on me game 2 after losing game 1 saw my hand and his face was priceless :tongue:.

[cheerios]

Regarding storm, ANT is harder to beat versus TES. ANT can easily recover from fizzling out. However, if you're expecting to face a lot of ANT, I suggest boarding in at least 2 surgical extractions. Against TES, dazes and knowing how to count mana is essential in winning.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

YEs, Storm is our good matchup, but we don't have that easy times as other U.dec have. We lack discard (both for the actual discard and the info provided) or Counterbalance, pre-board there's little to be done about EtW plan, and ANT has quite resilient manabase. PiF gets around any number of countermagic and Xantid Swarm is pretty annoying. If anyone's meta is full of Storm, I would recommend a sb overhaul, as the aditional Pierces, REBs, Flustertorms and Extractions might be needed. Hey, if your meta is truly infested with Storm, maybe CB/Top might find a way into your sb.

[trollking21]

About the the storm match up
Deck 54 can thresh
2 forked bolt
2 spell pierce
2 spell snare

Board
Artifact (2)
2xGrafdigger's Cage

Creature (1)
1xSulfur Elemental

Instant (10)
2xAncient Grudge
2xDivert
1xFlusterstorm
3xSubmerge
2xRed Elemental Blast
Sorcery (2)
2xRough // Tumble


So for board against storm
-3 forked bolt
-1 goose
-1 goyf
+2 REB
+2 rough
+1 flusterstorm

I shave 1 of each green creature because I never want to see 2 goyf's really and goose is still slow REB stops cantrips rough stops empty and flusterstorm stops storm.

[DragoFireheart]

Against TES, dazes and knowing how to count mana is essential in winning.

But what if I don't know how to count higher than three?

[trollking21]

But what if I don't know how to count higher than three?

you should hopefully have at least 7 fingers. That's the highest you really need as infernal+ad nas is 7.

[Contract Killer]

It all depends on your md and sb configuration. If you play burn-heavy list and have nothing else to take from sb, then it's quite solid choice. Moreover, Storm matchup is one of the few where we're not exactly beatdown (it's important to be aggressive once we assert control, but that's a different story), so every card that helps us not lose is important.

My recent md:
50 Can Thresh
4 Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
2 Fire/Ice
1 Sylvan Library

My recent sb:
Qty Name
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Artifact Mutation
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sulfur Elemental

Against Strom I'd sb like this:
-1 Bolt, -2 Fire/Ice, + 2 Pyroblast (to hit cantrips), +1 Flusterstorm (obv)
then
-4 Mongoose (slow threat,and dies to...), +2 Rough (EtW plan), +2 Cage (PiF)

I'm not a genius, so maybe this is wrong. Esp. Mongoose/Goyf decision is the one over which ppl are sometimes arguing, but for me it's easy to decide, as Mongoose is too slow and it dies to Rough, if I need to play it.

Btw, Rough/Tumble is arguably the worst card, because ETW, once resolved, has the ability to strip us of hand (due to CT flashbacks). Still, I prefer to have an answer to goblins and it's quite possible that after you fought (and lost) The Battle of EtW on stack, you may win it on the battelfield, simply by naturally drawing the spell, blindly Pondering into it, or becasue you've hid it on the top with BS, once the battle started: note that you don't need it when fighting the storm, so it's not like "gonny hide it if I'll need it", but much more "away with this nonsense, I need to BS into FoW". Moreover, if they etW on turn1 or turn2, there might be not enough CTs to completely tear our hand, and with the amount of shuffles and cantrips, Rough may show soon enough to matter.

I wouldn't say rough is the worst answer since the cabal therapy I don't think is that much of an issue. Usually if they go the ETW route against us it's turn 1 all or nothing and they don't have much in the way of disruption. On another note how is the sylvan library owing for you?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I wouldn't say rough is the worst answer since the cabal therapy I don't think is that much of an issue. Usually if they go the ETW route against us it's turn 1 all or nothing and they don't have much in the way of disruption. On another note how is the sylvan library owing for you?

One CT is enoguh, because if it's paired with another disruption (even something as "weak" as GP), they may discard two of our cards. Also, ANT goes for EtW a bit later, esp. against Thresh that has little to do about it, once the storm trigger successfully resolves.
I just started the tsting, so I have very little to say about library. But it was fine against Infect, where your life toatly doesn't really matter. :cool:

[Krankk]

With all this talk about side-boarding, how do you guys go against Miracles? (The versions that run 3 RIP in the main for Helm kill.)

[Contract Killer]

With all this talk about side-boarding, how do you guys go against Miracles? (The versions that run 3 RIP in the main for Helm kill.)

My main sideboard plan against them is:
OtP +2 pyroblast, +2 flusterstorm, +vendilion clique / -4 lightning bolt, -dismember
OtD +2 pyroblast, +2 flusterstorm, +vendilion clique / - 4 daze, -dismember

How do people feel about flusterstorm in the miracles match up? At the worst it's a bad spell pierce at best it wins counter wars hands down usually. Then again they can get up to a lot of mana sometimes so it doesn't even win counter wars all the time. So far it's been ok not amazing, but usually able to hit an entreat or something.

[Contract Killer]

One CT is enoguh, because if it's paired with another disruption (even something as "weak" as GP), they may discard two of our cards. Also, ANT goes for EtW a bit later, esp. against Thresh that has little to do about it, once the storm trigger successfully resolves.
I just started the tsting, so I have very little to say about library. But it was fine against Infect, where your life toatly doesn't really matter. :cool:

Yeah I could see it being really good against them main hahaha.

[Blaze22]

Vs ant/TES I always like to swap some of my threats with sulfur elementals just because they have flash, and they always work greatly! Btw I really don't understand why you guys are still talking about the storm matchup (which is one of the best for us) while nowadays the meta is full of a much bigger, unblockable, untargetable and damage-immune problem...

yeah, i never thought nemesis could be that much of an issue for our deck to handle but here I am, talking about my bad experience of the last couple of months... God, since that card has been added to some top-tier lists like BUG/deathblade/UWR I feel like our deck is not as effective anymore. As you should know, RUG's main feature is nimble mongoose. That's what the deck is all about... and believe me, I loved that card and it was sooo good a couple of years ago! then, slowly, its immense power has ben crippled with the printing of some new sh*t. Yeah, I'm talking about you deathrite shaman and rest in peace. But still, the loose goose was able to fight against them and survive this first attack.

AND NOW THIS DEMIGOD FISH... they should have named it "mongoose nemesis", because that's what it does. I lost so many games due to a timely nemesis off the top and I'm sick of this. something had to change, and I decided that mongoose was that thing. They say... if you can't beat them... join them!
I'm proud to present you my new rug list, which led me to an outstanding 4-0-1 at the last local event (32 players)!!!

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Tarfire

4 Wooded Foothills
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Destructive Revelry
SB: 1 True-Name Nemesis
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Submerge

I know, it's hard to leave the mongooses, but I did and I'm happy with that! I don't know if I pulled this result only thanks to the "surprise effect" of rug playing the monster or because TNN actually made the difference. What I can say right now is that every time I drew a nemesis, it was game-breaking and a mongoose would have been up to the task maybe 50% of those times. Let's analyze this rationally, TNN's pros and cons vs mongoose:

Cons:
-mana cost allows you to play no more than 2
-can be red blasted
-can be dazed more easily
-dies to -1/-1 global effects

Pros:
-always 3 power no matter what
-unblockable!!
-not graveyard-reliant (this is huge)
-infinite wall for fatties
-pitchable to force of will

My personal experience says that the pros are worth it a thousand times right now.
Well, now... I don't think that mongoose days are over, I'm just saying that it's really hard right now to make it count. When I still had mongooses, every single turn I was thinking in my head "if he plays nemesis right now I'm screwed"... I couldn't go on with that anxiety so, guys... I joined the dark side :D

[Isre Morn]

SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Destructive Revelry
SB: 1 True-Name Nemesis
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Submerge


Do you need no Rough-Effect? Because Nemesis is vulnerable to Rough/Tumble you could play Lavamancer like the UWR lists do against tribal.

EDIT to TNN Main:
I think it's a mentionable idea. With unblockable nemesis we're able to push the last damage through to end the game in our favor. I believe we're generally faster with an resolved TNN instead with slower mongoose. Additional Tarfires may speed up the clock. With 10 creatures in the main chances that delver flips are higher finally.

[Blaze22]

Do you need no Rough-Effect? Because Nemesis is vulnerable to Rough/Tumble you could play Lavamancer like the UWR lists do against tribal.

EDIT to TNN Main:
I think it's a mentionable idea. With unblockable nemesis we're able to push the last damage through to end the game in our favor. I believe we're generally faster with an resolved TNN instead with slower mongoose. Additional Tarfires may speed up the clock. With 10 creatures in the main chances that delver flips are higher finally.

yeah that's exactly the point. we have 10 threats but they're the most efficent out there. Delver is the nuts, goyf is bigger than ever with tarfires feeding him and nemesis is the best shroud creature right now.

about rough, yeah... i had to sacrifice them but it has been a while since the last time that I wanted to board them in. If you really need a wrath effect you could add Sudden Demise. but the truth is that we are naturally stronger against tribal decks now with nemesis! and the grafdigger's cage owns elves alone ;)

[trollking21]

yeah that's exactly the point. we have 10 threats but they're the most efficent out there. Delver is the nuts, goyf is bigger than ever with tarfires feeding him and nemesis is the best shroud creature right now.

about rough, yeah... i had to sacrifice them but it has been a while since the last time that I wanted to board them in. If you really need a wrath effect you could add Sudden Demise. but the truth is that we are naturally stronger against tribal decks now with nemesis! and the grafdigger's cage owns elves alone ;)

I tried playing clique in the main for a while. It was really awkward reaching 3 mana normally. Have you had any problems casting it?

[Blaze22]

I tried playing clique in the main for a while. It was really awkward reaching 3 mana normally. Have you had any problems casting it?

Nope, not really... when I saw it early in the game I just pitched it to fow. And mid game 3 lands are not too many. I also came to the conclusion that if you have 3 lands and some stifle/pierce/snare in hand you just want to slam nemesis on the table, it's too strong and will probably be better than holding back to counter stuff.

[Contract Killer]

Vs ant/TES I always like to swap some of my threats with sulfur elementals just because they have flash, and they always work greatly! Btw I really don't understand why you guys are still talking about the storm matchup (which is one of the best for us) while nowadays the meta is full of a much bigger, unblockable, untargetable and damage-immune problem...

yeah, i never thought nemesis could be that much of an issue for our deck to handle but here I am, talking about my bad experience of the last couple of months... God, since that card has been added to some top-tier lists like BUG/deathblade/UWR I feel like our deck is not as effective anymore. As you should know, RUG's main feature is nimble mongoose. That's what the deck is all about... and believe me, I loved that card and it was sooo good a couple of years ago! then, slowly, its immense power has ben crippled with the printing of some new sh*t. Yeah, I'm talking about you deathrite shaman and rest in peace. But still, the loose goose was able to fight against them and survive this first attack.

AND NOW THIS DEMIGOD FISH... they should have named it "mongoose nemesis", because that's what it does. I lost so many games due to a timely nemesis off the top and I'm sick of this. something had to change, and I decided that mongoose was that thing. They say... if you can't beat them... join them!
I'm proud to present you my new rug list, which led me to an outstanding 4-0-1 at the last local event (32 players)!!!

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Tarfire

4 Wooded Foothills
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Destructive Revelry
SB: 1 True-Name Nemesis
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Submerge

I know, it's hard to leave the mongooses, but I did and I'm happy with that! I don't know if I pulled this result only thanks to the "surprise effect" of rug playing the monster or because TNN actually made the difference. What I can say right now is that every time I drew a nemesis, it was game-breaking and a mongoose would have been up to the task maybe 50% of those times. Let's analyze this rationally, TNN's pros and cons vs mongoose:

Cons:
-mana cost allows you to play no more than 2
-can be red blasted
-can be dazed more easily
-dies to -1/-1 global effects

Pros:
-always 3 power no matter what
-unblockable!!
-not graveyard-reliant (this is huge)
-infinite wall for fatties
-pitchable to force of will

My personal experience says that the pros are worth it a thousand times right now.
Well, now... I don't think that mongoose days are over, I'm just saying that it's really hard right now to make it count. When I still had mongooses, every single turn I was thinking in my head "if he plays nemesis right now I'm screwed"... I couldn't go on with that anxiety so, guys... I joined the dark side :D

I don't know a lot of people have tried TNN in the sideboard and ultimately thought it unnecessary. I personally don't feel it has a place in the mainboard because it weakens our main plan of tempo. Our turn 2 becomes significantly weaker without being able to land a threat with 1 mana permission up. I mean I could be wrong I haven't tried TNN sideboard or mainboard, but it seems to be weakening plan a for a tentatively better plan b. The other thing is TNN is a bit slow without the equipment package since he's at earliest a turn 3 threat. In addition to that with him being weaker in our plan without equipment he becomes significantly worse if they have removal like supreme verdict. I'm curious in your test results though it could be the right addition to RUG.

[Blaze22]

I don't know a lot of people have tried TNN in the sideboard and ultimately thought it unnecessary. I personally don't feel it has a place in the mainboard because it weakens our main plan of tempo. Our turn 2 becomes significantly weaker without being able to land a threat with 1 mana permission up. I mean I could be wrong I haven't tried TNN sideboard or mainboard, but it seems to be weakening plan a for a tentatively better plan b. The other thing is TNN is a bit slow without the equipment package since he's at earliest a turn 3 threat. In addition to that with him being weaker in our plan without equipment he becomes significantly worse if they have removal like supreme verdict. I'm curious in your test results though it could be the right addition to RUG.

I know it's hard to believe... I was really skeptical before testing it, you know... 3 mana are a TON for a tempo deck, but the actual testing surprised me at the point that now I think TNN is the way to go. you have to think like this: even if you play mongoose on turn 1-2 it's pretty much irrelevant. I mean, 1 damage per turn that vanishes as soon as the opponent plays ANY creature? is this it? is this all you can conjure, Saruman??? nope... the true power of mongoose is shown later into the game, perhaps around turn 4-5 where it finally becomes thresholded (if no shaman survived). well by that turn you can cast your TNN and have a nice day with your goose 2.0 that will happily win the game for you, even through KotR, goyfs, TNNs, pesky v. cliques, strixes and so on... Our tempo plan is not ruined as long as you cast it with no fear as soon as you reach 3 mana (except vs combo or storm where it's nearly uncastable, but mongoose was even worse there, because it was an irrelevant clock that couldn't even be pitched to fow)

[Contract Killer]

I know it's hard to believe... I was really skeptical before testing it, you know... 3 mana are a TON for a tempo deck, but the actual testing surprised me at the point that now I think TNN is the way to go. you have to think like this: even if you play mongoose on turn 1-2 it's pretty much irrelevant. I mean, 1 damage per turn that vanishes as soon as the opponent plays ANY creature? is this it? is this all you can conjure, Saruman??? nope... the true power of mongoose is shown later into the game, perhaps around turn 4-5 where it finally becomes thresholded (if no shaman survived). well by that turn you can cast your TNN and have a nice day with your goose 2.0 that will happily win the game for you, even through KotR, goyfs, TNNs, pesky v. cliques, strixes and so on... Our tempo plan is not ruined as long as you cast it with no fear as soon as you reach 3 mana (except vs combo or storm where it's nearly uncastable, but mongoose was even worse there, because it was an irrelevant clock that couldn't even be pitched to fow)

See I get what you're saying, but it seems almost like the same clock. Let's say you play T1 goose. By turn 4 it's done a minimum of 3dmg and this would be the turn we would first be attacking with TNN. At this point between what 2 fetches, 1 wasteland, ponder, counterspell, blank, blank goose is most likely already loose. Goose dodges the same removal that TNN does except it can be blocked. It just seems like when we boil it all down we're arguing on if we want our creature to be unblockable right? With that being said shouldn't we just focus more on protecting our graveyard and keeping the lanes of attack clear?

Edit - It's also important to note that goose while slow I think is better than tapping out against combo turn 3 or 4. At that point they can probably go off and we need our mana for permission spells.

[Isre Morn]

See I get what you're saying, but it seems almost like the same clock. Let's say you play T1 goose. By turn 4 it's done a minimum of 3dmg and this would be the turn we would first be attacking with TNN. At this point between what 2 fetches, 1 wasteland, ponder, counterspell, blank, blank goose is most likely already loose. Goose dodges the same removal that TNN does except it can be blocked. It just seems like when we boil it all down we're arguing on if we want our creature to be unblockable right? With that being said shouldn't we just focus more on protecting our graveyard and keeping the lanes of attack clear?

Edit - It's also important to note that goose while slow I think is better than tapping out against combo turn 3 or 4. At that point they can probably go off and we need our mana for permission spells.

It might be the same clock, but the fact is with nemesis you don't have to focus that much on graveyard protection or keeping the lanes of attack clear as with goose. this could save you a bolt for "to the head" instead of for a potential blocker after an attack with nemesis in the end - or a counter for another card, instead of saving it for RIP.

But I share your thoughts about combo MU... :/ Blaze22, can you tell us something about these matchups in your experience?

[Blaze22]

It might be the same clock, but the fact is with nemesis you don't have to focus that much on graveyard protection or keeping the lanes of attack clear as with goose. this could save you a bolt for "to the head" instead of for a potential blocker after an attack with nemesis in the end - or a counter for another card, instead of saving it for RIP.

But I share your thoughts about combo MU... :/ Blaze22, can you tell us something about these matchups in your experience?

As I said earlier, it's really simple: vs combo I've never cast it. I just want to pitch it to force and post sb I swap them with sulfur elementals! Also, i filled the free slots left by gooses with 2 probes, and those turned out to be really useful against ant and such because you can bluff permission when you're actually vulnerable!

[sawatarix]

There have been a few new interesting rug builds to fight the current metagame.

One of them was a deck my friend built and piloted in vienna to a third top8 in a month.
He played rug-burn with delver,tarmogoyf,tnn,goblin guide and ghor-clan rampagner and a lot of burn (price of progress obv)
and crushed all nemesis decks thanks to rampagner and his trample-ability.

Rug is endless,
Keep on brewing !


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Contract Killer]

There have been a few new interesting rug builds to fight the current metagame.

One of them was a deck my friend built and piloted in vienna to a third top8 in a month.
He played rug-burn with delver,tarmogoyf,tnn,goblin guide and ghor-clan rampagner and a lot of burn (price of progress obv)
and crushed all nemesis decks thanks to rampagner and his trample-ability.

Rug is endless,
Keep on brewing !


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

I completely agree that RUG is constantly in flux especially right now with how warped the meta has become with TNN. Personally I'm looking at trying out this build from the BURG threat:

4x delver
4x goose
3x goyf
2x deathrite

3x tropical
2x volcanic
2x tropical
7x fetch
4x wasteland

normal 24x instant/sorcery (ponder, brainstorm, daze, force, stifle, bolt)
5 flex spots (currently 1 dismember, 1 spell pierce, 3 spell snare)

sb
2x submerge
2x rough
3x golgari charm
artifact mutation
ancient grudge
2x flusterstorm
2x pyroblast
sulfur elemental
grafdigger's cage

It essentially plays 99% like RUG with a few mana dorks to help smooth out the mana and/or shoot past TNN. Then you have the sideboard hate specifically for TNN. I'm starting to see more promise, though about running two TNN in the regular RUG shell just need to try it out. At face value it seems bad, but being able to save more resources for ending the game rather then killing creatures makes sense.
Anybody thought about trying out a few enchantment spells to stick on TNN in RUG builds? I know the general consensus on enchantments two for one yourself is bad, but this isn't very likely to happen with TNN. Just a thought probably not going to turn anything up.

@Sawatix: Could you share that RUG-burn list? Playing a more aggro shell in a meta that's slowed down for TNN makes sense and sounds really good.

[Blaze22]

There have been a few new interesting rug builds to fight the current metagame.

One of them was a deck my friend built and piloted in vienna to a third top8 in a month.
He played rug-burn with delver,tarmogoyf,tnn,goblin guide and ghor-clan rampagner and a lot of burn (price of progress obv)
and crushed all nemesis decks thanks to rampagner and his trample-ability.

Rug is endless,
Keep on brewing !


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

oh my god. awesome stuff. please the link to the list!! :D yeah playing more burn and TNN ourselves is a way of dealing with this meta, we need to adapt to survive. ghor-clan rampager is a freaking awesome card, I loved it since it was on the gatecrash spoiler!!

[Tormod]

Looks very similar to some of the blue zoo lists that have been played. Blue Zoo (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20129-Deck-Blue-Zoo)

The latest creature packages I've been seeing are Delver, Nactl, Goyf, True-Name. I never agreed with the white splash to support Nact'l, but I also don't agree with playing Goblin Guide with Daze, seems like a nonbo. Imho, I think Kird Ape is a better critter if this is the direction you want to go.

If you're running Price without basics or Wastelands, Fireblast would be an interesting way to keep the self damage low.

All things being said, if you want to continue to discuss this type of build, I would encourage that discussion in the Blue Zoo thread. You'll find some players who have been working on such a build.

[Derayler]

Hey guys, I don't post here often but I was the RUG player who lost in the finals of Baltimore. The list I played was about 2 cards off I believe. Before the event I was speaking to the nova guys and they were the ones who convinced me to change my list to what I played that day. What I recommend for now is 4 stifle like was stated before in the thread.

4 Goyf
4 Goose
4 Delver

4 Force
4 Stifle
4 Daze
2 Snare
2 Pierce
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning bolt
1 Forked bolt

3 Trop
3 Volc
8 Fetch
4 Wasteland

SB
3 REB
1 Snare
1 Clique
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Submerge
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Grafdigger's cage
1 Flusterstorm

This is currently the list I am going to play in a large legacy event in Maryland this weekend. I have tried True-Name and it was pretty lack luster for me. Without getting some value out of the ability it has I think Clique is better in the spot. I am also all aboard the spell snare train for those who haven't jumped on board yet.
P.S. for those of you who care a lot about credibility I top 8'ed GP Atlanta in 2012 with RUG and missed top 8 of DC on tie breakers as well. I mostly just wanted to make this post because I have read a lot on the source before and it seemed like a waste to not give back some feed back on good results. If you have any questions feel free to message me or post back here.

[Blaze22]

I mostly just wanted to make this post because I have read a lot on the source before and it seemed like a waste to not give back some feed back on good results. If you have any questions feel free to message me or post back here.

hey thanks for your feedback, it's always nice to see the good ol' rug doing well :) I agree with you about the spell snare fact, it's a good card and should be played 2x in every RUG list right now, I have to ask this though: how was your experience against TNNs? did you find a lot of TNN decks? To me, it seems like every deck that plays them gained a huge advantage vs our old list. In fact, we were discussing about adapting the classic list to the meta by making it more burn/aggro centric or including TNNs... you know t's really frustraing when a single TNN shuts down our mongoose+goyf race alone... :frown:

[Contract Killer]

Hey guys, I don't post here often but I was the RUG player who lost in the finals of Baltimore. The list I played was about 2 cards off I believe. Before the event I was speaking to the nova guys and they were the ones who convinced me to change my list to what I played that day. What I recommend for now is 4 stifle like was stated before in the thread.

4 Goyf
4 Goose
4 Delver

4 Force
4 Stifle
4 Daze
2 Snare
2 Pierce
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning bolt
1 Forked bolt

3 Trop
3 Volc
8 Fetch
4 Wasteland

SB
3 REB
1 Snare
1 Clique
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Submerge
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Grafdigger's cage
1 Flusterstorm

This is currently the list I am going to play in a large legacy event in Maryland this weekend. I have tried True-Name and it was pretty lack luster for me. Without getting some value out of the ability it has I think Clique is better in the spot. I am also all aboard the spell snare train for those who haven't jumped on board yet.
P.S. for those of you who care a lot about credibility I top 8'ed GP Atlanta in 2012 with RUG and missed top 8 of DC on tie breakers as well. I mostly just wanted to make this post because I have read a lot on the source before and it seemed like a waste to not give back some feed back on good results. If you have any questions feel free to message me or post back here.

Great list though I think probe is a waste as a one of. Tthe power of probe lies as a three of when you're able to consistently get information preferably early on right? When you just have a singleton the time you draw it you probably already know what they're on.
So do you think three REB in the sideboard is the best way to deal with TNN? Have you tried one Ancient Grudge and one Artifact Mutation in the sideboard? It has done wonders for me last week drawing it twice against batterskull (Esper Stoneblade) and both games winning off of the five 1/1s it put out. Another sideboard change that seems to be better now is running two submerges instead of three due to the lack of KOTR or Goyfs since most people are on the TNN train.

[Derayler]

Blaze22 - I do not think that building more towards a deck like Osyp played a while back would be that great. Mongoose was by far the best creature in the deck over the course of the weekend. Goyf was a little bit lack luster so I could see making 1 Goyf a green sun's and playing an ooze in the board if you wanted another threat. (You could cut the 3rd submerge). As for beating true-name I just tried to apply early pressure and kept in a decent number of forces against the decks that played them. If it is worth noting I beat 4 resolved true-names that weekend, mostly leaning on bolt and ancient grudge to finish them off and keep true-name from getting out of hand. It is also worth noting that True-name is not as popular as you might think and ancient grudge was a great way to combat that along side spell snare. (for Rest in Peace and Mystics)

Contract Killer - I liked probe when I drew it at GP DC. It might be a wasted slot but there is nothing else I really want in that slot, it might be right to just play the 6th red spell in forked bolt. I just hate playing a lot of probes because playing a deck like this means your life total is a precious resource and cycling more than 1 probe can start to add up and to play more probes you have to cut action spells which I don't want to do. I do agree that REB is the best way to fight true-name. The decks that play true-name often play Snapcaster and other things so the card is never dead. To find room for the 3rd REB in the board I trimmed down on flusterstorms because REB is very good against combo as well and kinda fills both roles. As for cutting the submerge I do not think it would be correct. I mentioned above this that you could cut one goyf for a GSZ and play a Sideboard ooze which would take the slot of the 3rd submerge, but I don't think that's correct either. Submerge is so good against Elves, BUG, RUG, and Jund that I think it's worth keeping around. If you really wanted to cut it I would either make the GSZ/Ooze change, add the 3rd cage, or 2nd flusterstorm.

EDIT: I forgot about Artifact Mutation. I do not think it's a better card because the flashback is super important for being able to hit their other equipment or fighting through countermagic, but having that card resolve on a batterskull seems like pure value and I might buy one to just do it.

[Tormod]

My opponent attacked me with an unflipped delver equipped with a jitte, I mutated his jitte and blocked the delver and beat him to death with the 1/1 saproling while controlling tempo. It's one of those sideboard cards that is not only good but fun.

[sawatarix]

@derayler:
Gsz or should we say goose no.5 is always great but notice that uwr delver decks run 4 spell pierces main so it would be really hard to resolve it.
Getting a goose pierced is kinda loose... (i'm running thrun in the sb to get goose no.5 which does not die to rip but thats another story.4cc is still expensive but equal to a pierceproof gsz)

@all:
• What are your opponions on the post-born of gods metagame,especially during gp paris?
Does sulfur elemental get a comeback due to death&texas and spirit of the labyrinth?

•how many bug,rug,jund and elves are out there?
Are 3 copies of submerge worth it?


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Derayler]

@derayler:
Gsz or should we say goose no.5 is always great but notice that uwr delver decks run 4 spell pierces main so it would be really hard to resolve it.
Getting a goose pierced is kinda loose... (i'm running thrun in the sb to get goose no.5 which does not die to rip but thats another story.4cc is still expensive but equal to a pierceproof gsz)

@all:
• What are your opponions on the post-born of gods metagame,especially during gp paris?
Does sulfur elemental get a comeback due to death&texas and spirit of the labyrinth?

•how many bug,rug,jund and elves are out there?
Are 3 copies of submerge worth it?


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

I don't think the GSZ is right but it's something to consider. I played against Elves twice, BUG twice and Jund one in Bmore. In DC I played against Jund twice, BUG twice and Elves once. SO I think the slots are warranted.

[cheerios]

I'm planning to test a build with Phantasmal Images with this creature suite (4 Nimble, 4 Delver, 3 Tarmogoyf, and 2 Images). The theory behind this is we can copy opposing TNNs to finish them off. The card can also copy Mongeese and Delvers, and can be pitched to force. The card can be dead if we only have the Image as a lone creature in hand or if there's nothing worthwile to copy.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I'm planning to test a build with Phantasmal Images with this creature suite (4 Nimble, 4 Delver, 3 Tarmogoyf, and 2 Images). The theory behind this is we can copy opposing TNNs to finish them off. The card can also copy Mongeese and Delvers, and can be pitched to force. The card can be dead if we only have the Image as a lone creature in hand or if there's nothing worthwile to copy.

Also, the card can be dead if there's only one creature out and they kill it in response to spell. This is possible esp. in the early stages of game, when the Image is the most powerful (since turn6+ you may easily play your own TNN). Otoh, in most matchups there will always be something to copy and a two-mana fliped Delver isn't bad.
Let us know how this experiment went!

[trollking21]

image seems like a good way to combat nemesis while having all sorts of other neat targets, it will take some getting used to so you don't get blown out by a stray STP but it seems fairly good in theory.

[that0neguy]

Remember to copy insectile aberration, not delver. Cloned delvers don't flip.

[Contract Killer]

Blaze22 - I do not think that building more towards a deck like Osyp played a while back would be that great. Mongoose was by far the best creature in the deck over the course of the weekend. Goyf was a little bit lack luster so I could see making 1 Goyf a green sun's and playing an ooze in the board if you wanted another threat. (You could cut the 3rd submerge). As for beating true-name I just tried to apply early pressure and kept in a decent number of forces against the decks that played them. If it is worth noting I beat 4 resolved true-names that weekend, mostly leaning on bolt and ancient grudge to finish them off and keep true-name from getting out of hand. It is also worth noting that True-name is not as popular as you might think and ancient grudge was a great way to combat that along side spell snare. (for Rest in Peace and Mystics)

Contract Killer - I liked probe when I drew it at GP DC. It might be a wasted slot but there is nothing else I really want in that slot, it might be right to just play the 6th red spell in forked bolt. I just hate playing a lot of probes because playing a deck like this means your life total is a precious resource and cycling more than 1 probe can start to add up and to play more probes you have to cut action spells which I don't want to do. I do agree that REB is the best way to fight true-name. The decks that play true-name often play Snapcaster and other things so the card is never dead. To find room for the 3rd REB in the board I trimmed down on flusterstorms because REB is very good against combo as well and kinda fills both roles. As for cutting the submerge I do not think it would be correct. I mentioned above this that you could cut one goyf for a GSZ and play a Sideboard ooze which would take the slot of the 3rd submerge, but I don't think that's correct either. Submerge is so good against Elves, BUG, RUG, and Jund that I think it's worth keeping around. If you really wanted to cut it I would either make the GSZ/Ooze change, add the 3rd cage, or 2nd flusterstorm.

EDIT: I forgot about Artifact Mutation. I do not think it's a better card because the flashback is super important for being able to hit their other equipment or fighting through countermagic, but having that card resolve on a batterskull seems like pure value and I might buy one to just do it.

That makes sense I might look at trying to find room for a third REB in my side. How do you go about siding for the elves match up? I've found two main lines of thought on it which are usually -4 daze, -2x / +3 submerge, +2 rough, +grafdigger's cage or -4 goose, -2x. I understand both there are many times against elves when they just play around daze all the time and it's dead, but lowering threats also seems bad. On the other hand I've had games where I force their GSZ (dryad arbor) waste a bayou and they can't afford to play around daze. The other issue is them just getting Wirewood Symbiote + elf and goose/goyf never get through. Do you think Life From the Loam doesn't do enough to require a sideboard spot?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

That makes sense I might look at trying to find room for a third REB in my side. How do you go about siding for the elves match up? I've found two main lines of thought on it which are usually -4 daze, -2x / +3 submerge, +2 rough, +grafdigger's cage or -4 goose, -2x. I understand both there are many times against elves when they just play around daze all the time and it's dead, but lowering threats also seems bad. On the other hand I've had games where I force their GSZ (dryad arbor) waste a bayou and they can't afford to play around daze. The other issue is them just getting Wirewood Symbiote + elf and goose/goyf never get through. Do you think Life From the Loam doesn't do enough to require a sideboard spot?

Pith the insect.

[Water_Wizard]

Do you think Life From the Loam doesn't do enough to require a sideboard spot?

Life from the Loam is right on the cusp. If you expect a lot of tempo mirror, it's a good card, but it's not going to do anything against combo, Nic Fit, Maverick, Miracles, etc. Deathrite Shaman makes Life from the Loam worse, as DRS eats the lands that you would return or the LftL.

[rlesko]

Life from the Loam is right on the cusp. If you expect a lot of tempo mirror, it's a good card, but it's not going to do anything against combo, Nic Fit, Maverick, Miracles, etc. Deathrite Shaman makes Life from the Loam worse, as DRS eats the lands that you would return or the LftL.

DRS eats the Loam so he is kill on sight if you are on the Loam plan.

[sawatarix]

I would not leave home without 1 Loam in my Sb.
It's just insane in the mirror,uwr delver,all types of lands decks, team america (kill shaman first then loamlock)

I'm very interested in you opinions about the metagame in gp paris next week.
What do you guys think?

( I personally expect a lot of Midrange Stoneblade Decks and a shitload on combodecks that try to ignore tnn which is good for us because we are also called comboslayer )




- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[PhanTom_lt]

I think I might be upping the number of Spell Snares and cutting on Pierces.

Is there a way to squeeze in Lavamancers? Or is there only space for them in the SB?

[drocker23]

spell pierce should be a 4 of in this deck.
fire//ice is the best 5th burn spell
spell snare is too narrow
the sideboard needs to be well rounded
misty rainforest and scalding tarn should be polluted delta and wooded foothills
goyf is your best creature play all 4

[trollking21]

spell pierce should be a 4 of in this deck.
fire//ice is the best 5th burn spell
spell snare is too narrow
the sideboard needs to be well rounded
misty rainforest and scalding tarn should be polluted delta and wooded foothills
goyf is your best creature play all 4

You are just saying things, with no arguement behind them.
Fire//ice is not necessarily the next best burn spell, forked bolt is a card that gives you a better game 1 against elves maverick and death and taxes.
Spell snare fixes problems that the deck has against goyf and stoneforge by beating them on the stack it's a very solid choice.
The side boarded being well rounded is not saying much at all.
And I agree wooded foothills is the best fetch for the deck the rest is debatable

[Contract Killer]

I think I might be upping the number of Spell Snares and cutting on Pierces.

Is there a way to squeeze in Lavamancers? Or is there only space for them in the SB?

I'm running three snares and they're really good right now:
UWR Delver: 4x stoneforge, 2-3x RIP sideboard, Jitte (all of these are really bad for us if they hit the table)
Stoneblade: 4x Stoneforge, 1-3x Snapcaster, Jitte,
Jund, RUG, BUG: GOYF very important to not let him hit and is relevant in all these match ups
Jund: GOYF 4x hymn to tourach, 4x Bob, 4x P-Fire (buys us a bit of time to try and find a waste), Loam, library, ooze
BUG: GOYF, 2-4x Strix, 2-3x Hymn
Elves: 4x GSZ (1g: any elf), 4x Visionary (The sheer card draw engine him + Symbiote makes is enough to warrant an immediate counter)
Storm: 4x Infernal tutor, 4x burning wish
D&T: 4x Thalia, 4x Stoneforge, 4x Revoker, Jitte, Celestial Flare
Miracles: 3x Counterbalance, 3x RIP, Energy Field, Counterspell
Lands: 4x Loam (I know snare doesn't answer it, but making lands blank on Loam multiple turns in a row is all you need sometimes)

Snare has so much value against all those decks going from most played at the top to least at the bottom. Anybody who says snare is too narrow should rethink that as it's especially good right now with all the stoneforge + TNN decks going around.

EDIT: the only thing snare blanks against for the most part (not including fringe decks) is Show and Tell. Even then we have such a good sideboard combo match up we shouldn't worry about it mainboard. What we should do is strengthen our worse midrange/control match ups and run snare

As for the Lavamancers not really. I mean RUG has traditionaly 6 flex spots (7 if you shave 1 goyf) and you don't really want to go above 12 creatures. Lavamancer isn't good enough to warrant cutting any off the main creatures. Most of our other tools for those flex spots spell pierce, snare, fire/ice, forked bolt, etc are better and more flexible.

[drocker23]

"the only thing snare blanks against for the most part (not including fringe decks) is Show and Tell. Even then we have such a good sideboard combo match up we shouldn't worry about it mainboard. What we should do is strengthen our worse midrange/control match ups and run snare"

snare also blanks against:
lightning bolt
swords to plowshares
liliana of the veil
show and tell
sneak attack
jace the mind sculptor
pyroblast/red elemental blast
true-name nemesis
deathrite shaman
dream halls
cunning wish
ponder
brainstorm
batterskull
terminus
sensei's divining top
spell pierce
force of will
natural order
glimpse of nature
green sun's zenith
engineered explosives


i'm sure the list can go on and on. so i believe the list of cards that spell pierce is good against, is larger and more important than the list of cards that spell snare is good against. therefore, i think it is better to have more spell pierces than spell snares. think about it, i mean these delver decks are all running like 28 - 30 instants and sorceries so why would you not wanna be maxed out on spell pierces? play the full 4 pierce, and then sideboard effectively against goyf and stoneforge mystic.

also, goyf should not have to be explained why you should play all 4. especially after i just said, 'he is your best creature'
also, if you don't know why you should be playing wooded foothills and polluted delta as your fetches, then you obviously don't know how to play with RUG Delver.
Fire//Ice also needs no explanation. instant speed, high utility, and it's blue. if worthless in a matchup, (which it almost never is), you cycle it for another card, putting you higher on cards than your delver competitors.

as for what it means to have a well rounded sideboard, i am currently running:
1 ancient grudge
1 grafdigger's cage
1 flusterstorm
1 krosan grip
1 pithing needle
2 pyroblast
3 rough//tumble
1 scavenging ooze
2 submerge
1 sulfur elemental
1 vendilion clique

[Contract Killer]

snare also blanks against:
lightning bolt
swords to plowshares
liliana of the veil
show and tell
sneak attack
jace the mind sculptor
pyroblast/red elemental blast
true-name nemesis
deathrite shaman
dream halls
cunning wish
ponder
brainstorm
batterskull
terminus
sensei's divining top
spell pierce
force of will
natural order
glimpse of nature
green sun's zenith
engineered explosives


My point was to not show every card in the format the Snare hits. My point was to show that it's good in the current meta against almost all the decks. Sure pierce has more flexibility that is non negotiable, but it's a soft counter. In addition Snare is used for a completely different purpose to hammer down on the two drops that can ruin our deck. Snare deals with Rest in peace, Stoneforge, opposing goyfs, bobs, etc. Pierce deals with mainly protecting our threats from removal and making the combo match ups better which we don't need.
Another thing to point out is currently (see the link below) 50% of the meta is running either Stoneforge Mystic or Tarmogoyf. Why should there be an argument over running a hard counter for both of those cards if they make up that much of the meta?
http://mtgtop8.com/topcards

[drocker23]

spell pierce is a hard counter 99% of the time.

but if you're dead set on running spell snare, then running a 3 spell pierce/2 spell snare split would be acceptable.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

spell pierce is a hard counter 99% of the time.

No, it's not, it doesn't stop neither Goyf nor SFM. Also, in your list of Spell Pierce targets you got DRS and TNN.

[drocker23]

No, it's not, it doesn't stop neither Goyf nor SFM. Also, in your list of Spell Pierce targets you got DRS and TNN.


the list is not 'here is all the stuff that spell pierce counters' it's a list that shows the popular cards you have to stop in the format. okay? now that that is clear....

spell snare hits hymn (which people are playing thoughtseize now) tarmogoyf, and stoneforge mystic. okay...now are u saying that without spell snare you can't beat these cards? the point of my last post was to show that spell pierce has many more uses and cards it can stop than what spell snare does.

let's look at some more obscure cards that spell snare can stop:
elvish visionary (cute but probably not that big a deal if you stop it
umezawa's jitte (jitte doesn't really do much against your creatures in play other than delver)
rough//tumble (now that is probably a card worth having a spell snare for if you are playing the mirror)
fire//ice (same thing as above)
burning wish (TES and Belcher are terrible decks. ANT is better)
cranial plating (could be lifesaving game 1 against affinity but who plays that deck?)
thalia (who cares? we have rough//tumble and sulfur elemental. white decks die to us)
any 2 mana creature in goblins or merfolk (they probably have aether vial or cavern of souls)

so yes, the earlier list shows some cards that spell pierce can'r stop, but spell snare can't stop them either. you should be worried about more than just stoneforge mystic and tarmogoyf. true name nemesis is enemy number 1 that we have to keep off the table. people also underestimate the value of spell piercing brainstorms and ponders as well. another common mistake people will make.

again main point is:

running only 2 spell pierce is bad. you need to be playing 3 or 4 of. preferably 4 of. it stops way more important cards in this format than spell snare does. play more spell pierce. Spell pierce is a 4 of in U/W/R Delver. Have you ever wondered why that is? Because it is the best counterspell in the format. Yes, way better than Force of Will currently. It stops just about every single card that you would also consider countering with Force of Will, but it does it for 1 mana. It helps counter important cards in every stage of the game, and most of the time, they will not have 2 mana to pay for it. have you forgotten that we also run wasteland and stifle to disrupt their mana base? it makes spell pierce all the more stronger.

[rlesko]

Spell Pierce is not even close to a hard counter. Also your list of things Spell Snare doesn't counter is unfair seeing as though you are putting things on the list Spell Perce cannot hit either.

No one is arguing that, in a vacuum, Snare is better than Pierce. However, it is undeniable that in this meta Snare is worthy of being main decked.

[drocker23]

Spell Pierce is not even close to a hard counter. Also your list of things Spell Snare doesn't counter is unfair seeing as though you are putting things on the list Spell Perce cannot hit either.

No one is arguing that, in a vacuum, Snare is better than Pierce. However, it is undeniable that in this meta Snare is worthy of being main decked.

I am beginning to agree with you on that statement. see the reason i make such a hard argument for spell pierce over spell snare, is to hear what the reasons are that people choose to run certain cards and how strong that argument is to change certain aspects of an already tight decklist.

i still believe that spell pierce is the better counterspell. but i am starting to agree as well that spell snare should be run as a 2 of in the main alongside 3 spell pierce, 5 burn spells (i'm choosing to go with fire//ice) and 4 of everything else. counterarguments are very important when deciding whether or not to run something just because you read it online. or because someone somewhere did well with the deck having it in their decklist. because you gotta think, just because guy A runs a few cards different than guy B, the part you don't get to research is how many games those few cards made any difference in their deck winning or losing. so the argument for why put card *blank* into *blank* deck needs to be researched, debated, and examined before adding or subtracting X cards from your decklist.

because you never know what the story is behind certain cards sometimes. look at the guy who played RUG delver with 2 Tarmogoyf and 2 Vendilion Clique. Do we know for sure these were the changes he thought was necessary for the deck? Do you think it was due to long discussions and many hours of playtesting that he felt that cutting 2 Tarmogoyf for 2 Vendilion Clique was the better way to go? or is it more likely that it had more to do with card availability? either he doesn't own 4 himself, or within his playgroup only 2 Tarmogoyf were available and he had to come up with something else to throw in. (i personally would have thrown in scavenging ooze if i didn't have all 4 goyfs but that's just me.) perhaps somebody was supposed to bring him cards or the deck and they forgot it so he had to build off of what he had. perhaps he didn't really care about winning but ended up doing it anyway.

i say this because i do not think every deck everywhere that has made top 8 is perfect. there are too many X factors as to why certain cards are played in any given decklist. so when considering to make changes it's important to think about all the reasons someone may or may not run said cards. i know, because this has happened to me and people i know before. Having to build a janky Junk list because my friend forgot Merfolk at home and doing terrible with it (except winning a box of New Phyrexia in a side event!) or how a friend got 3rd place with Petting Zoo. He was only running 2 Loam Lions, not 4. Instead he ran 2 Qasali Pridemage. The reason? Because he didn't own any Loam Lions, no one had them for him to borrow, and Starcity only had 2 in their case. The 2 he played. So he said "hmm...i'll just run qasali instead". And he got 3rd.

X factors......the reasons why or why not we play certain cards. More than just "oh look, some guy played them and did well".