[Deck] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

[Bed Decks Palyer]

This debate lost any sense the minute drocker put DRS, TNN, SFM and Goyf on list of cards hit by Spell Pierce.

Spell Pierce :u:
Instant
"Counter target noncreature spell unless its controller pays 2."

[rlesko]

@Drocker

Pierce is a fantastic card. I doubt this card will ever be replaced in RUG. Healthy debate has never hurt anyone :smile:

@BDL

I don't remember drocker saying that, it was my understanding he listed a bunch of cards which Snare did not hit (but also a few that Pierce didn't either, which is why I said he was giving an unfair analysis).

[Bed Decks Palyer]

@Drocker

Pierce is a fantastic card. I doubt this card will ever be replaced in RUG. Healthy debate has never hurt anyone :smile:

@BDL

I don't remember drocker saying that, it was my understanding he listed a bunch of cards which Snare did not hit (but also a few that Pierce didn't either, which is why I said he was giving an unfair analysis).


"the only thing snare blanks against for the most part (not including fringe decks) is Show and Tell. Even then we have such a good sideboard combo match up we shouldn't worry about it mainboard. What we should do is strengthen our worse midrange/control match ups and run snare"

snare also blanks against:
...
true-name nemesis
deathrite shaman
...

i'm sure the list can go on and on. so i believe the list of cards that spell pierce is good against, is larger and more important than the list of cards that spell snare is good against.


the list is not 'here is all the stuff that spell pierce counters' it's a list that shows the popular cards you have to stop in the format. okay? now that that is clear....

spell snare hits hymn (which people are playing thoughtseize now) tarmogoyf, and stoneforge mystic. okay...now are u saying that without spell snare you can't beat these cards? the point of my last post was to show that spell pierce has many more uses and cards it can stop than what spell snare does.

...

so yes, the earlier list shows some cards that spell pierce can'r stop, but spell snare can't stop them either. you should be worried about more than just stoneforge mystic and tarmogoyf. true name nemesis is enemy number 1 that we have to keep off the table.
/senselessness

[rlesko]

How crazy would Primal Rage be for TNN hate?


Card Name: Primal Rage
Mana Cost: :1::g:
Types: Enchantment
Card Text: Creatures you control have trample.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

How crazy would Primal Rage be for TNN hate?


Card Name: Primal Rage
Mana Cost: :1::g:
Types: Enchantment
Card Text: Creatures you control have trample.

Bad.

It doesn't help Mongoose to survive the hit by TNN. It makes little to nothing with Delver. So it just makes Goyf trample through TNN, but they must not have Jitte.
Is Rancor any good? It's fast, it gives bonus and as such, it may help to race TNN or even win before TNN enters the game. Sadly, it can't enchant Mongoose, but Priaml Rage wouldn't be better in it's place.

[anakyn]

thalia (who cares? we have rough//tumble and sulfur elemental. white decks die to us)


Are you joking/trolling?

"White decks", in other words D&T, love to face Delver decks, and Canadian above all, because it's one of their strongest matchups.

Honestly it doesn't seem like you played much Legacy lately.

[PhanTom_lt]

Snare is also another answert to Spirit of Labyrinth, assuming they don't have Vial. I might go with 3 Snare/2 Pierce makeup, have 1-2 Sulfur Elementals, 1 Rough/Tumble, 0 Submerges in the SB.

[sawatarix]

Our d&t mu is kinda 40:60 and feels like worse :D

I personally like PhanTom_It's configuration, although i dislike having no submerge in the board.submerge is (if you board it in against any deck) by far the best card in deck and you always want to have a lot of them.

I tested the D&T Mu the last couple of days with my friend and Sulfur elemental gets his well deserved 1-2 slots in the sb.
The same for snare.
Snare is obv. the best counter for sfm and her ugly friends :D


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[that0neguy]

My problem with spell snare isn't a lack of targets. It's not going to sit in your hand forever with no viable targets forever. My problem with spell snare is that the only 2 cards/plays that it is really the best possible play against are things like Tarmogoyf and SFM fetching Jitte/SoXaY, and there are a few very popular MUs where it can be very bad.

Stifling the batterskull germ token can be a much better tempo play than spell snaring the SFM, which can largely neutralize the play, where Jitte/Sword will make every future threat much worse.

Any of the x/1s are usually better answered by something like Forked bolt or fire. Any storm combo pieces are adequately answered by spell pierce, while spell snare only hits a few limited targets. And while spell snare does have targets in the storm match up, they are the targets on the terminal end of the chain, when they are more likely to have already hit you with a duress or silence, making them much worse. Spell snare also does almost nothing in the SnS mu.

In general there are very few must stop 2 drop creatures, where there are many must stop spells, which is why I usually max out spell pierce without even touching spell snares. I think I would also go reaching for an extra Fire/Forked bolt or even a maindeck ancient grudge before I go looking for spell snare. Ancient grudge is by far the best answer to stone forge mystic/any equipment, taking out equipment after they attack and then they are safe can lead to big blowouts or even just the loss of multiple turns of tapping down to play sfm, then activate, then equip. That can be 6 mana and 3 turns.

If you really expect to be facing a lot of DnT, I think it is very easy to swing the MU in our favor through more sulfur elementals. The only reason you don't see more on a regular basis, is because it is not an incredibly popular archetype compared to blade decks, ect.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I like the thought on Ancient Grudge and tempo gain against SFM. But really: Grudge main? It does very little in Storm matchup. Snare does at least something, and you may always counter the CRit or the set-up ITs, if you feel that the end spell will be protected somehow. Same goes for Goyf, Grudge won't help you any way.
Snare is meant to be an overall answer for anything from Thalia through Counterbalance to Burning Wish. It has different applications than Pierce and it's used in different way. Also, it's a hard counter in situation where Pierce is a blank. I can't imagine playing without at least one.

[sawatarix]

@that0neguy:

Nice comparison dude !
Here are some of my thoughts:

First if all,they both are awesome but slightly different.
Against Storm,Spell Snare remains the better counter because it has to be discarded
before he goes into the combo.
It's impossible to circumvent Spell Snare without a discard spell.spell pierce on the other hand can be played around.
The only argument for spell pierce is the sneakshow mu,where spell snare is almost a dead card.

Having multiple answers to stoneforge mystic is great because now our opponent has to fear spell snare,lightning bolt and stifle.

So there is the question: why not splitting if both cards have their pros and cons?
I personally made the experience that i always had the wrong copy in hand so i quit splitting.
Run 3-4 copies of either pierce or snare and the other one in the sb for instance.
Finall It's up to you :-)



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[that0neguy]

I'm just saying, I would consider grudge main before I would consider spell snare to shore up a sfm mu. There is starting to be a solid number of high impact, important targets with so many decks packing equipment, Baleful strix, Shardless Agent, Aether vial, Phyrexian revoker, Ensnaring bridge.

As for Spell snare in the storm mu: Spell snare can not fight silence at all, and if they do have the discard spell, and Spell snare is your only interaction point against them, you don't have any way to interact against them. You never run into a similar problem with spell pierce.

Against Sneak and show you have 0 maindeck targets.

The fact that it can rarely participate in any counterspell wars or fight over removal spells has always bugged me as well.

Another point in spell snares favor though would be a late game counterbalance.

In a game plan where the plan is to drop a threat, protect the threat, and try not to die. I think spell pierces ability to resolve and protect our threats is probably its most important aspect.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Another point in spell snares favor though would be a late game counterbalance.

In a game plan where the plan is to drop a threat, protect the threat, and try not to die. I think spell pierces ability to resolve and protect our threats is probably its most important aspect.

That's why I support one Snare main. As such, it won't clog your hand, and chances are you'll have it in mid/late game when you need to stop CB/IT/w-e while Dazes and Pierces are dead. Also, it's still quite good against SFM and Goyf, early-to-late game.

I think I'll try one of Grudge main. Batterskull is so annoying that it can't be ignored, and the flashback may be relevant against all the SFM.dec around.
Disenchant main? That's so 1994.

[kiblast]

I'm just saying, I would consider grudge main before I would consider spell snare to shore up a sfm mu. There is starting to be a solid number of high impact, important targets with so many decks packing equipment, Baleful strix, Shardless Agent, Aether vial, Phyrexian revoker, Ensnaring bridge.

As for Spell snare in the storm mu: Spell snare can not fight silence at all, and if they do have the discard spell, and Spell snare is your only interaction point against them, you don't have any way to interact against them. You never run into a similar problem with spell pierce.

Against Sneak and show you have 0 maindeck targets.

The fact that it can rarely participate in any counterspell wars or fight over removal spells has always bugged me as well.

Another point in spell snares favor though would be a late game counterbalance.

In a game plan where the plan is to drop a threat, protect the threat, and try not to die. I think spell pierces ability to resolve and protect our threats is probably its most important aspect.

Silence is ran only in Tes though. Most of the Storm combo decks you will find in tournaments are ANT and they don't run Silence.
Is it true though that vs Sneak Show is completely dead. In counter wars, it counters Counterspell and that's it. But you are focusing too much on the things that Snare can't do. It has dozens of good targets in all of the top tier decks except Sneak and Show. In a game plan where your plan is to drop a threat and protect it, you also need to make sure that the threat goes through opponent's Tarmogoyfs (and Strixes, and Batterskulls, and Mogg War Marshall, Scryb Ranger etc.)

I'd play Grudge main over main deck Spell Snare only if I knew that half of the meta is Blade.decks and the other half Affinity...

[Erdvermampfa]

Personally, with TNN taking over the format, I think that the era of RUG's unquestioned dominance has come to an end because its colors don't offer enough viable options to compete in the new Legacy environment. Everyone who's willing to concede that should probably shift to BUG now.

[trollking21]

Personally, with TNN taking over the format, I think that the era of RUG's unquestioned dominance has come to an end because its colors don't offer enough viable options to compete in the new Legacy environment. Everyone who's willing to concede that should probably shift to BUG now.
The demise of RUG is greatly exaggerated. We are still the quintessential tempo deck. Wherever stifling fetches and wasting lands is good we'll be there.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Exactly. I fear SFM->BSkull much more than some Hill Giant for 1UU.

[Isre Morn]

Personally, with TNN taking over the format, I think that the era of RUG's unquestioned dominance has come to an end because its colors don't offer enough viable options to compete in the new Legacy environment. Everyone who's willing to concede that should probably shift to BUG now.

RUG Delver.decs are the Spartans, TNN.decs are the Persians and you are an Arcadian.

[PhanTom_lt]

Personally, with TNN taking over the format, I think that the era of RUG's unquestioned dominance has come to an end because its colors don't offer enough viable options to compete in the new Legacy environment. Everyone who's willing to concede that should probably shift to BUG now.

Said like someone who has a bad matchup vs RUG.

RUG will evolve, adapt. Maybe it will sit on the sidelines for a while. People will start forgetting how to protect their lands and fetch properly. And then Stifle will be back. :)

[JPoJohnson]

I've just acquired a playset of Trops and Volcanics so I'm looking into building Threshold. I honestly know very little about the deck and how it matches up against the meta (beyond understanding how to play magic decently in general - I currently run Merfolk, TES, and Dredge).

I was wondering how it handles the meta, what its weaknesses are, where it shines, and any advice for someone looking to get into it (Such as, if you had a chance to start over and build a deck in legacy, would you build Threshold again now that you've experienced it or would you look elsewhere?)

Thanks guys, appreciate it! (:

[carefulmug]

@JPoJohnson

Canadian Threshold has a pretty fair 50% against the entire field, faring very well against most storm and SnT variants. It drops the ball against Elves!, DnT, and Lands, but you're never completely out of the game.

Canadian Threshold's unique approach to MtG strategy is to continually gain as much as possible out of as few resources as possible. You have 1 mana stone rains (stifle) 1 mana, 3 power creatures that either fly or are untargetable, the most efficient burn spell in the game, and the two best/cheapest draw spells.

And they all cost a single mana. Utilize your resources well in manipulating your opponent's resources. There are certain lines of play that are almost always "correct", such as leaving a blue source available for Stifle and avoiding having more than 2-3 land in play at a time. As with anything, there are exceptions, but Canadian Threshold has a tried and true formula that has stuck around for years.

For decent sideboard advice, check the top of page 248. Personally, I feel there are some matchups where maintaining some number of Forces on the play and Dazes on the draw is beneficial dependent on the matchup. Otherwise, good stuff.

I've been playing it since Delver got printed, and I'd definitely build it again. Ignoring the price tag, of course.

+++++++++++++++++++++

Anyway.

Attended a 20 man today. 5 rounds, cut to top 8.

r1, Jund

2-0

I don't remember this matchup's specifics. Kept him down on land and board presence. Jund has a significant tournament presence, but the more I fishbowl it and talk with people who play it, the more it reveals itself to be no more than a Modern deck masquerading as a Legacy deck. Good, but never great.

r2 UWr Miracles

2-0

K-Grip came in from the side to blow up a Divining Top. Ice proved invaluable in battling Entreat the Angels tokens.

r3 The Gate

2-1

Repeatedly Iced an Obliterator in g2 to squeak by an attrition based matchup. Lost g1 despite Wasteland/Stifling him out for the first 6 turns due to no threat on board.

r4 ID

r5 ID

Top 8

r1 BUG//Team America

2-0

The protective quality of Stifle left me ahead in land both games. Spell Snare was amazing.

r2 Lands

1-2

g1 I rushed a Delver out despite having 2 Stifle and a Daze in hand. Three turns later I was on the losing end of a Marit Lage token. g2 was a mull to 5 for him and a timely wasteland from me, winning an easy game, but g3 was all him, with Exploration, LftL, Wasteland, patience and meticulous play on my opponent's part, and a combo finish resulting in another Marit Lage. Rough beats.

Very difficult matchup. Probably worth 1-2 Surgical Extractions in SB if it continues its upward trend of popularity.

Went 4-1-2 altogether, finishing 3rd. Used store credit for 4 Spirit of the Labyrinth (DnT) and 3 Golgari Charm.

List was:

4 Delver
4 Nimble
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire//Ice

4 Ponder

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
3 Trop
3 Volc

SB:

2 Spell Snare
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Rough//Tumble
2 Submerge
3 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Phantasmal Image

++++++++++++++++

The Spell Snares were fantastic, but I didn't face a single TNN to test the Phantasmal Image. Fire//Ice was Boss all day. Try the list. If you like it but want more counters, I suggest -1 Tarm, -1 Fire//Ice, +2 Spell Snare for the MB and -2 Spell Snare, -1 Phantasmal, +1 Tarm, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Spell Snare in the SB.

Fire//Ice, I feel, is essential in battling DRS, Thalia, SFM, Germ Tokens, and a litany of other creatures while maintaining reach, cantripping, and pitching to Force of Will.

++++++++++++++++

Thanks for reading.

[Contract Killer]

I'm just saying, I would consider grudge main before I would consider spell snare to shore up a sfm mu. There is starting to be a solid number of high impact, important targets with so many decks packing equipment, Baleful strix, Shardless Agent, Aether vial, Phyrexian revoker, Ensnaring bridge.


So let me stop you right there ancient grudge does nothing against Baleful Strix, Shardless Agent and Phyrexian Revoker. For starters Strix resolves they draw a card clog up the lanes of attack. Even if we kill Strix they've drawn a card and we're down one. Against Strix it's strictly better to counter it. Shardless agent is more or less the same issue we don't care about a 2/2, but the cascade into Recall is just back breaking for us so much card advantage. Phyrexian Revoker we don't care about. What are they going to hit? The single JTMS in our sideboard that we don't even bring in against D&T lol? Aether Vial and ensnaring bridge are both troublesome though and do merit a grudge, but not popular enough to run main. As for using it for batterskull I think just running snare is better as it's not dead against a ton of match ups and is great against SFM/Batterskull.


Personally, with TNN taking over the format, I think that the era of RUG's unquestioned dominance has come to an end because its colors don't offer enough viable options to compete in the new Legacy environment. Everyone who's willing to concede that should probably shift to BUG now.

While it may be true that TNN does really rain our parade RUG is still a deck to be feared. There are hands where no deck can stop us. When you're able to stifle/wasteland someone; turn daze into a hard counter and beat them over the head with a 3/2 on turn 2 you've won. RUG's demise is partially because of TNN and also because of the decks running it also having SFM packages, supreme verdicts, and 7 - 8 spot removal. While we have gotten weaker because of TNN we're still the best tempo deck around and we have 50-50 or better match ups all around.


I've just acquired a playset of Trops and Volcanics so I'm looking into building Threshold. I honestly know very little about the deck and how it matches up against the meta (beyond understanding how to play magic decently in general - I currently run Merfolk, TES, and Dredge).

I was wondering how it handles the meta, what its weaknesses are, where it shines, and any advice for someone looking to get into it (Such as, if you had a chance to start over and build a deck in legacy, would you build Threshold again now that you've experienced it or would you look elsewhere?)

Thanks guys, appreciate it! (:

Congrats on choosing a great deck to play. I would pick Threshold again hands down. It's a great deck because it has no real "bad" match ups. It has plenty of 50-50 match ups but no "well I'm playing against _____ I lose". Another perk is it runs all three pillars of legacy, tarmogoyf and great duals/fetches all of which will hold value. As for the match ups:

Storm 60/40 main in our favor and probably 70/30 sideboard. By far one of our easiest match ups since we can stifle the storm trigger.

Tezzerator is 50/50 and more 60/40 sideboard. Ancient grudge really helps out here. This is one of the few midrange decks where you want FOW even on the play because they have chalice of the void which essentially counters our entire deck.

Esper stoneblade/deathblade is probably 50/50 and maybe 60/40 sideboard. This matchup can go either way depending if we get a great delver hand or a ton of mana denial etc.

Elves (one of our best match ups) 60/40 and 70/30 sideboard. Rough and submerge just make the sideboard match so much in our favor.

Show and Tell (all variants) 50/50 and 60/40 sideboard. It's the only combo deck I've really have had trouble with because of their high threat density. Another issue is half the time they just have the nuts because they have 8 FOW with pact in their deck.

Patriot and rug mirrors are 50/50 and don't really get better sideboard. These matches it's all about the mana and 1 for 1s. All we want to do here is trade cards evenly and it becomes a huge attrition war (this is why you side FOW out here).

Counterbalance is sort of an awkward match up. It's very 50/50 because while they have a ton of removal between terminus, verdict and swords we also can just run 1 threat out at a time. Another thing that can really sway the match up is stifling their miracle triggers which really helps. Sideboard is probably the same nothing really changes because all we really bring in is x REB and a V-clique.

Jund people say is a bad match up, but it's still 50/50. Like Shardless they have a ton of must answer spells, but sideboard gets a lot better with submerge and rough. The main things that make this match up slightly unfavorable is them having P-fire to win goyf wars, Liliana and an early hymn can really ruin our day.

Lands I'll explain since it's been getting more popular since Thespian Stage. This match up is probably 50/50, but can be in our favor easily. Lands aside from being really hard to play also seems kind of inconsistent so it's hard to accurately explain the match up. Goose is our best creature since it dodges their mazes. We can easily win the match up so long as we slow them down by countering exploration and countering loam. Even though countering loam doesn't do anything really making them brick multiple turns in a row is all we need some times so long as we have a threat in play.

Now here are the few bad match ups:

Goblins 30/70 main and maybe 40/60 sideboard. They just have a lot of hate for us between wasteland and rishadan port. In addition to their land destruction they have really good card draw in ringleader and can out race us hands down with lackey. This match up has just a lot of pivotal points in it where we need to bolt a warchief, lackey or stifle a ringleader trigger.

Shardless BUG is one of our few bad match ups probably 40/60 in their favor and maybe 50/50 sideboard
This is mainly because of their excessive card draw and must answer spells like JTMS, Liliana, Abrupt Decay (ok can't answer that one), Deathrite, Hymn, Tarmogoyf, etc.

D&T is the other bad match up aside from BUG that's bad due to their excessive mana denial and us already playing in a low mana environment. 40/60 in their favor maybe 50/50 sideboard with sulfur elemental and life from the loam.

Merfolk is 40/60 main and 50/50 sideboard with rough helping a lot. This match ups is just really bad because they swim past us and have vial to dodge our counters.

One recommendation might be to start out running Gitaxian probe because having perfect information allows for perfect sequencing. After you learn the correct lines of play though it's probably better to run more burn or counters. There are times where the information does nothing and you would rather have a 5th bolt for their creature.

[that0neguy]

I guess I kinda got pulled off track, i'm not really advocating for the use of ancient grudge in the md. I'm saying I would use spell pierce over spell snare.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Contract Killer, thx for your analysis. I'm not sure if the numbers aren't too optimistic, but well, the info provided is very useful.

[anakyn]

Contract Killer, thx for your analysis. I'm not sure if the numbers aren't too optimistic, but well, the info provided is very useful.


They are optimistic indeed, still a nice analysis.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

They are optimistic indeed, still a nice analysis.
Imho the correct numbers are much more 40:60 in favour of any non-Thresh deck (depends on our particular build, e.g. three-FBs designs with a pair of Roughs in sb must destroy Elves/Goblins), as Thresh is too well-rounded (if there's such a thing) and thus lack the bombs, unless we count Stifledazewaste a single bomb.
Also, there are some bad-dream-to-nightmare matches (like Lands, if they survive the early game), anything attrition/CB based (be it Pox or Miracles) and of course: Dredge.

I'm thinking of cutting one Cage and adding back the Crypt, I was very bothered some LftL.dec, otoh, Crypt does nothing against Elves and Dredge/Reanimator might play around it.

[Contract Killer]

Contract Killer, thx for your analysis. I'm not sure if the numbers aren't too optimistic, but well, the info provided is very useful.

I will admit (with the exception of the bad matchups) the numbers were probably on the optimistic side. To be fair RUG kind of has a way of doing that to you. Sometimes you'll have games where you pass they pass back you pass back they fetch and then stifle then daze. Then next turn you wasteland and it's not even close any more. Or there are nail biter games where you lose by a small margin of them resolving a sfm with FOW + spell pierce back up. Those games you start to over analyze "did I counter something I didn't need to?" "Could I have held off on my Brainstorm?". It's just such a hard deck to play correctly, but when you do there are plenty of free wins due to opponents play mistakes.

There are just so many different lines of play and scenarios with RUG I feel like it's really hard to accurately describe the match ups. RUG has a good way of exploiting minor play mistakes and shoving our opponents face in it. We make sure to capitalize on those small mistakes and it usually makes the difference.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I will admit (with the exception of the bad matchups) the numbers were probably on the optimistic side. To be fair RUG kind of has a way of doing that to you. Sometimes you'll have games where you pass they pass back you pass back they fetch and then stifle then daze. Then next turn you wasteland and it's not even close any more. Or there are nail biter games where you lose by a small margin of them resolving a sfm with FOW + spell pierce back up. Those games you start to over analyze "did I counter something I didn't need to?" "Could I have held off on my Brainstorm?". It's just such a hard deck to play correctly, but when you do there are plenty of free wins due to opponents play mistakes.

There are just so many different lines of play and scenarios with RUG I feel like it's really hard to accurately describe the match ups. RUG has a good way of exploiting minor play mistakes and shoving our opponents face in it. We make sure to capitalize on those small mistakes and it usually makes the difference.

Yes, these are exactly my thoughts. While RUG is quite easy to play, it's bit harder to master. I know that this is told (and true) about each deck. What I meant was this: everyone may win with a lucky hand and/or unlucky opponent, but what counts more are those "real" games where you try to win by playing, not by double Stone Rain on first two turns. On difficulty scale, RUG is nowhere near to Dredge or similar decks, of course. I'm just saying that whoever believes that mere Stifles and Wastes will bring him to the top tables, isn't right.
Sadly, I think that sometimes it isn't really visible what was the cause of defeat (or win), so it's not that easy to make point-by-point manuals for the victory and a card-by-card sideboarding explanations. While the gameplan is easy and plain - lay down dude and tap it for twenty -, the execution might be difficult due to small (sometimes not even seen) details. To use the Dredge example once more: if you miss the BfB trigger, or if you forget to sacrifice Colliseum before removing seventh card to Ichorid, you know where the mistake happen. On the other hand, it's not that easy to tell "if I'd counter the cantrip/DRit/CB/SFM instead of ..., I'd definitely won."

[index]

Hey guys !

This is my first Post here in the forum but i'm reading here for 2 years now, so hello to everybody :cool:

I've been playing RUG now for 2 years now, and what i mean is i ONLY play RUG and no other deck. In my oppinion it's the best deck in Legacy and until the release of TNN it matched itself always to the new meta. But as there are no possibilities to handle a resolved TNN RUG will loose to him while every of our creatures that could raise him gets sworded' of bolted'. I will go to the GP in Paris next week, and i don't know if RUG is still a good choice at the GP because of all the Esper/Patriot/ Jund dephts and TNN decks going around. I know at big tournaments like the GP there will be a lot of Combo that makes RUG a good choice. But on the other Hand all the TNN decks make it a very bad choice. So whats your opinion ? Should i swap to Patriot for the GP? Because it has the same good combo matchup as RUG but a better matchup against the TNN decks cause i can raise them better...

If i choose RUG this would be my SB:

3 Pyroblast
2 Submerge
2 Rough//Toumble
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Exraction
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip

Maindeck is basic RUG with 2 Forked Bolts, 1 Dismember and 3 Spell Pierce and no Snares.

Should i change the Flusterstorm for Snares? I think in the Matchups where Flusterstorm is a good card, Spell Snare does the same but better. It handles Threats before the counterwar beginns and can win them, while Flusterstorm only can win them and not start them. I know this sounds stupid, but thats my experience.

Thanks for reading, Greets !

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Hello index, welcome!

Cards availability aside, in your place I'd stay true to Canadian, unless I had at least ten hours to extensively test the Patriot against all the possible DTB. It makes little sense to play a deck you're not used to, thankfully UWR isn't that different, so maybe it is reasonable choice.

[Contract Killer]

Hey guys !
If i choose RUG this would be my SB:

3 Pyroblast
2 Submerge
2 Rough//Toumble
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Exraction
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip

Maindeck is basic RUG with 2 Forked Bolts, 1 Dismember and 3 Spell Pierce and no Snares.


So if I were you I would stick with RUG. It's what you're most comfortable with and therefore you'll probably do better with it. As for your sideboard I think most everyone has agreed that TNN has no place in the 75 period. It's just TNN goes against RUG's natural habitat of a low mana environment. I would cut the 2 surgical extractions in favor of grafdigger's cage and even then only 1. Extraction is cute, but cage is more versatile and does the same thing for us and then some. Another thing you might want to try is artifact mutation in favor of K-Grip. Three mana is just hard to get to these days and while split second is great it doesn't matter if we're dead by the time we can play it.

Mainboard I would try to find room for at least 2 snares it's just too good not to play right now especially if you're worried about the SFM decks. I would run 2 forked bolts, 2 pierces and 2 snares. Aside from that everything looks great good luck at GP Paris. So wish I could go, but a trans-continental flight is kind of expensive just to play magic for my taste.

[index]

So if I were you I would stick with RUG. It's what you're most comfortable with and therefore you'll probably do better with it. As for your sideboard I think most everyone has agreed that TNN has no place in the 75 period. It's just TNN goes against RUG's natural habitat of a low mana environment. I would cut the 2 surgical extractions in favor of grafdigger's cage and even then only 1. Extraction is cute, but cage is more versatile and does the same thing for us and then some. Another thing you might want to try is artifact mutation in favor of K-Grip. Three mana is just hard to get to these days and while split second is great it doesn't matter if we're dead by the time we can play it.

Mainboard I would try to find room for at least 2 snares it's just too good not to play right now especially if you're worried about the SFM decks. I would run 2 forked bolts, 2 pierces and 2 snares. Aside from that everything looks great good luck at GP Paris. So wish I could go, but a trans-continental flight is kind of expensive just to play magic for my taste.

I play the 2 Surgical extraxtion because thats my plan against Patriot, waste tundra and extract them. Patriot lists doesn't run stifle and their only way to deal with it is spell pierce post board. Why do you think Grafdigger's cage is better ?

I really dont know how to find a slot for them MD because i want to have a g1 answer to potential Goyf, Kotr and Batterskull if they resolve. And if there is a thing that i hate, it is randomness

EDIT: Ah yeah, i forgot my 15th slot in my SB. It's pithing Needle

[Contract Killer]

I play the 2 Surgical extraxtion because thats my plan against Patriot, waste tundra and extract them. Patriot lists doesn't run stifle and their only way to deal with it is spell pierce post board. Why do you think Grafdigger's cage is better ?

I really dont know how to find a slot for them MD because i want to have a g1 answer to potential Goyf, Kotr and Batterskull if they resolve. And if there is a thing that i hate, it is randomness

EDIT: Ah yeah, i forgot my 15th slot in my SB. It's pithing Needle

I'm currently running 3 spell snare, 1 spell pierce and 1 dismember. The thing about snare is it stops Goyf and Batterskull (indirectly by hitting SFM) before they hit the table. The thing about the surgical and wasteland plan is it's too cute. I've tried it hell everyone has tried to live the dream of wasteland + surgical, but it just doesn't happen that often. The reason why Grafdigger's cage is better in terms of graveyard hate is because it deals with the same issues, it's permanent and it stops elves.

[Juice11]

Hey guys, I played RUG Delver for the first time in a smaller 8 man and ended up going 3-0. I typically play homebrews and things of the like, but decided to play solid archetype for once (even though my list was a bit janky. Figured I'd do a mini write up.

My list was:

List was:

13 Creatures:
4 Delver
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Phantasmal Image

29 Spells
4 Brainstorm
3 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
2 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire//Ice
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe

18 Lands
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island

SB:

1 Spell Snare
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Force of Will
2 Submerge
2 REBs
2 Artifact Mutation
1 Misdirection
1 Pithing Needle
1 Life from the Loam
1 Flusterstorm

I kind of threw it together a half hour before the mini and it seemed to work out well. I'm new to RUG, but Have played BUG and Patriot. I will definitely try the 4 fire//ice build, that just looks very useful. I found 3 stifles to be plenty. I think the 3 Gitaxian Probes were on many cases my best card. It's so underplayed right now and is very synergistic with a deck like this where sequencing is extremely important. It helped me extra because I am newer to RUG delver.

1st Round: Storm

Game 1 was a turn 1 Delver, turn 2 flipped and dropped a goyf for extra pressure. He tried to go off turn 3 but I had FOW with Spell Pierce as an extra counter. I'm not too experienced against Storm but I sided in 2 forces, 2 rebs, and a Flusterstorm. I took out 4 Dazes, 1 misdirection.

Game 2 Was turn 1 Delver beats down to 2, keeping him off lands with stifle and Wasteland. He went off and made about 12 tokens, but I just swung through the next turn in the air for the win. Not sure, why he didn't go for the tendrils win.


RD 2 was against Elves, It wasn't very exciting, 2 very quick games. game 1 he mulled to 4 and early delver/ goyf beats with Daze and spell pierce. was too much. game 2 he mulled to 6, but wasteland with some counters and a graftdiggers cage was enough to hold him off to beatdown with a delver and a threshed goose. I think I sided in 2 cages, 1 FOW, and 2 submerge. took out 4 daze and a misdirection

RD 3 was against esper back to basics build. First game I mulled to 5 and probably should have went to 4. He killed me with batterskull and a jitte on a TNN when I had a wasteland in play. I don't remember game 2 much, but it was the opposite, he mulled once and I had every answer to his plays. Game 3 was pretty darn long. Basically an early RIP by him and a lingering souls traded back and forth with my 2 geese till it was about 6-8 and then he verdicted (he could have cast a verdict much earlier but was fine with trading. I think it was a misplay by him, but I'm not sure. Looking back on it I may have been a bit lucky because I was able to stifle the living weapon trigger for a batterskull then bolt the SFM. I also reb'd and dazed 2 TNNs, I had spell pierce for his back to basics and a couple other counters were able to hold him off until I got a delver to stick and flip the next turn and ride it to victory. It went back and forth there for at least 10-15 turns and I had an answer for literally everything he tried. My only 2 outs there were 2 delvers I had left or a delver and bolt.

If I had to redo it I would probably do:
13 Creatures:
4 Delver
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Phantasmal Image/ Scavenging ooze

29 Spells
4 Brainstorm
3 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fire//Ice
3 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe

18 Lands
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island

SB:

1 FOW
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Submerge
2 REBs
2 Artifact Mutation
2 Rough Tumble
1 Pithing Needle
1 Life from the Loam
1 Flusterstorm

Honestly didn't miss the 4th Force of will in the main deck. I would even consider going down to 2. I think probe is one of the strongest tempo cards we have, I feel like I want no less than 3 in RUG. I like the idea of more burn, And I think Fire/Ice is perfect. I really wanted rough and tumble but never had it. I also think I need something that hits artifacts and enchantments instead of the artifact mutation. Not to sure yet. The phantasmal wasn't really used, the one time I could have, I felt it was better to just reb the TNN and keep up countermagic instead of copying a goyf.

Needless to say, I'll be following this thread more and playing rug a bit more too.

[cheerios]

Thresh just won. OG is not yet dead.

[trollking21]

13 Creatures
4 Delver
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Phantasmal Image/ Scavenging ooze

29 Spells
4 Brainstorm
3 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fire//Ice
3 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe

18 Lands
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island

SB:

1 FOW
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Submerge
2 REBs
2 Artifact Mutation
2 Rough Tumble
1 Pithing Needle
1 Life from the Loam
1 Flusterstorm

Honestly didn't miss the 4th Force of will in the main deck. I would even consider going down to 2. I think probe is one of the strongest tempo cards we have, I feel like I want no less than 3 in RUG. I like the idea of more burn, And I think Fire/Ice is perfect. I really wanted rough and tumble but never had it. I also think I need something that hits artifacts and enchantments instead of the artifact mutation. Not to sure yet. The phantasmal wasn't really used, the one time I could have, I felt it was better to just reb the TNN and keep up countermagic instead of copying a goyf.

Needless to say, I'll be following this thread more and playing rug a bit more too.

3 fire//ice seem wrong, they are incredibly clunky in multiples. I also don't like cutting ponder at all. I don't think I could play 3 stifles. I do like the phantasmal image a lot however, wing able to clone TNN or random high value targets seems good

[poxy14]

Thresh just won. OG is not yet dead.

yup, RUG is still one powerful deck! i love the probeless built, forked bolts helped him alot on his elves matchup (semis) ..
the lack of 1 pierce md, seemed to be the loophole when he battled SnT and lost game 1 in the finals...
after that, with 3 reb effects and flusters....it was RUG back on TOP!

congratulations taylor scott!

[rlesko]

Thresh just won. OG is not yet dead.

And with a pretty stock list, too. I really hope we can get a report on some forum from Mr Scott, I would love to hear what his matchups were throughout the day.

[jake556]

Congrats Taylor! Glad to see RUG take it down. 17 card SB! lol http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=63424

[cheerios]

Hopefully we can see this beast performing well again in GP Paris #threshnotdead

[trollking21]

I'm glad RUG won the SCG tourney with a very stock list. I'm pretty pumped he's running the same main deck as I am. I think this gives a little bit of confidence that the deck needs minor tweaking not overhaul if anything.

[Zombie]

I'm glad RUG won the SCG tourney with a very stock list. I'm pretty pumped he's running the same main deck as I am. I think this gives a little bit of confidence that the deck needs minor tweaking not overhaul if anything.

It could also simply be an abnormality.

[drocker23]

I play the 2 Surgical extraxtion because thats my plan against Patriot, waste tundra and extract them. Patriot lists doesn't run stifle and their only way to deal with it is spell pierce post board. Why do you think Grafdigger's cage is better ?

I really dont know how to find a slot for them MD because i want to have a g1 answer to potential Goyf, Kotr and Batterskull if they resolve. And if there is a thing that i hate, it is randomness

EDIT: Ah yeah, i forgot my 15th slot in my SB. It's pithing Needle

what exactly do you mean they only have spell pierce to defend against it post board? do you mean surgical extraction? Patriot can also defend against surgical extraction by activating a grim lavamancer or scavenging ooze if they play one.

[trollking21]

It could also simply be an abnormality.
That's entirely possible, as no other RUG deck did well, at that tourney, but I'm hoping RUG is alive

[sawatarix]

There is also another Rug-List in the Top 50 which contains
4 delver of secrets
2 grim lavamancer
4 tarmogoys
3 True-Name Nemesis

Which looks kinda controlish and midrangy build.
I'm not sure if i like it,probably not because the only fast thread that you can deploy is delver.
It's just horrible if your opening 7 contains 1 Land and 1 True-Name Nemesis which occurs sometimes in a deck with 18 Lands.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Zombie]

There is also another Rug-List in the Top 50 which contains
4 delver of secrets
2 grim lavamancer
4 tarmogoys
3 True-Name Nemesis

Which looks kinda controlish and midrangy build.
I'm not sure if i like it,probably not because the only fast thread that you can deploy is delver.
It's just horrible if your opening 7 contains 1 Land and 1 True-Name Nemesis which occurs sometimes in a deck with 18 Lands.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

Yeah, that kind of configuration with no manadorks seems horrible. Needs that Hierarch or Deathrite in there somewhere.

Has anyone tested Curfew, and if so, has it done well or not?

[sawatarix]

It looks like kinda NLT-Brew or something,no clue how it succeed.

Curfew is a nice card combined with Snapcaster but thats another story and another deck.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[rlesko]

It could also simply be an abnormality.

Very possible. I saw multiple misplays in the top 8 which turned out to work in his favor. Sometimes the opponent just draws dead (match 3 game 3).

[drocker23]

There is also another Rug-List in the Top 50 which contains
4 delver of secrets
2 grim lavamancer
4 tarmogoys
3 True-Name Nemesis

Which looks kinda controlish and midrangy build.
I'm not sure if i like it,probably not because the only fast thread that you can deploy is delver.
It's just horrible if your opening 7 contains 1 Land and 1 True-Name Nemesis which occurs sometimes in a deck with 18 Lands.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

I played against him Round 1 at the open series. i was also playing rug delver but more of the traditional build. let me tell you what happened.

game 1
he goes land, land, fetch, cast tarmogoyf. and then i decided instead of countering it, i would just bolt it (i did not have a snare in hand) since the instant would keep him at a 3 power. tarmogoyf died. then next turn he casts another tarmogoyf. i force of will pitching ponder, because i had delver in hand and was gonna run it out next turn. then he forces back pitching stifle. and then i was thinking i cannot let this tarmogoyf resolve, so i force of will pitching delver. tarmogoyf gets countered. so i have nothing left but a fetch land in hand. i draw for turn, i draw a land, and pass. he then untaps and goes, true name nemesis. i was like damn, i'm dead. which i was because i had no answer to it. i scooped up my cards as soon as he played his second true name nemesis which was only a turn or two later.

Game 2
i open up wasteland, wasteland, volcanic island. so i play volcanic and pass he then uses wasteland. i use my mana for brainstorm and find another volcanic. next turn i play volcanic island and pass. he wastelands again. my turn i play wasteland and pass. then he plays a fetch, and i played a fetch and then he drops a grim lavamancer that gets bolted at end of turn. i resolve a tarmogoyf, it has 4 power. with a flipped delver, and land land fetch in play, he casts sylvan library. i cast daze, and in response he cracks his fetch land. in response i submerge his flipped delver, it resolved. then he asks if his fetch resolved, and i said no. cast daze on the sylvan library. it gets countered and my goyf is now a five power. we both forget to resolve the fetch, he calls a judge over and the judge rewinds to the point of resolving the fetch, because he never even shuffled his deck. and then he casts ponder. i think i have this game won with a 5 power tarmogoyf. but then he cast true name nemesis. on my next turn, i cast ponder, found a second tarmogoyf which i drew with ponder, cracked my fetch land to cast it and in response, he cast submerge. and then the game was over since my only out was to swing with 2 creatures and bolt him. he ended up finding a delver after stalling with true name, flipped it, i took a few hits from it and then was forced to bolt it when my life total got below 10. i also found a scavenging ooze and tried to keep it alive but it died to his bolt. i don't really remember what happened after that but i died to his true name nemesis. after the game was over he told me something along the lines of:

''i cut nimble mongoose for 3 true name nemesis. in matchups where it's hard to cast him, i just pitch him to force of will most of the time, and even in matchups like this where we are both wastelanding each other, the game is gonna go on so long, that we're both gonna get to 3 mana eventually.''

it was a good game and i lost against him 0-2. in fact, the only match in the 4 rounds i played that i beat was reanimator. i lost to Reed playing his version of RUG Delver in round 1, lost to Belcher in Round 2, won against Reanimator in Round 3, and then lost to Enchantress in Round 4 and then dropped afterwards.

i have determined after playing U/W/R Delver in Indianapolis, and RUG Delver in Nashville, that I am just completely incapable of playing Tempo style decks. I am much better when it comes to the mid to late game. So I think from now on I am going to play something else. I felt like RUG Delver, even though it won 1st place, was a poor deck choice for this event. Not only because of how I did with it, but also because as I walked around the room, and saw what other people were playing, it just looked miserable. so 1 - 3 drop record for me for RUG Delver in SCG Open Nashville.

The list i was playing was pretty much entirely based on Drew Levin's article about RUG Delver that he wrote prior to Grand Prix DC, as well as this forum, and the guy who got 2nd place in Baltimore.
Here was my list:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Fire // Ice

Sideboard:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Submerge
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Pithing Needle
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Rough // Tumble
1 Krosan Grip
1 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast

if i were to play RUG Delver again (which is really really unlikely) i would not be playing True Name Nemesis. the reason being is that if i were playing with 3 true names maindeck i would rather be playing something better like BUG Delver or U/W/R Delver. i think either one of these decks can utilize True Name more than RUG can. but that is not to take anything from Reed making a top 64 finish. he was a pleasure to play against, and i wish him the best of luck in future tournaments.

[sawatarix]

I got the intention behind this idea.Would increase the land count up to 19 if this creature package works - which i don't really believe yet.
Anyway, if tnn gets a home in rug i could imagine a build like this one:

4 Delver
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 True Name Nemesis
1 Green Suns Zenith

What i really like about this one are all the shroud creatures.
Force of will and spell pierce are not longer needed to protect our guys but can be used to negate our opponents plans.
I run a similar list with deathrite Shaman instead of Gsz and the 3rd Tnn in my German ******** List,being successful here in berlin.
I'll bring it to Gp Paris this weekend so i hope to catch up
some of you there.
To make it easier to find me in the big hall - I'm gonna wear this shirt:



http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/11/7yty9e8y.jpg


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[trollking21]

I got the intention behind this idea.Would increase the land count up to 19 if this creature package works - which i don't really believe yet.
Anyway, if tnn gets a home in rug i could imagine a build like this one:

4 Delver
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 True Name Nemesis
1 Green Suns Zenith

What i really like about this one are all the shroud creatures.
Force of will and spell pierce are not longer needed to protect our guys but can be used to negate our opponents plans.
I run a similar list with deathrite Shaman instead of Gsz and the 3rd Tnn in my German ******** List,being successful here in berlin.
I'll bring it to Gp Paris this weekend so i hope to catch up
some of you there.
To make it easier to find me in the big hall - I'm gonna wear this shirt:

- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -
It seems that it might be better to just play BURG and run 4 deathrites so you can keep mana open and more easily something cast TNN
something like this perhaps for the creature base.
4 delver
4 deathrite
2 goyf
3 TNN
Possibly switching the TNN and goyf counts but, our close cousin BURG seems better able to fit true name i would think. I don't know however if this is improvement over what they currently have going on.

[Exuberance]

Hi all;

I'm the guy who won at Nashville with RUG. I've been playing it for almost a year and a half, and my list has basically stayed the same the whole time. I feel really good about the current iteration of it. The sideboard is (obviously) wrong; I only had one extraction and one elemental. I never wanted Tarfires or Probes or Trunes.

I'm gonna write a tournament report maybe today or tomorrow and post it here or in the report section. I know I'm not perfect with the deck, but I consider myself better than average. And yes, I did luck out a few games during the day, but that just seems like the norm, at least whenever I play it. Haha.

A quick summary, for your consideration:
UWr Miracles 2-0
UWr Miracles 2-0
Burn 2-0
Lands 0-2
Patriot 2-1
RUG Delver 2-1
Punishing Jund 2-1
ANT 2-0
ANT 2-0

Shardless BUG 2-1
Elves 2-1
Sneak and Show 2-1

[rlesko]

Hi all;

I'm the guy who won at Nashville with RUG. I've been playing it for almost a year and a half, and my list has basically stayed the same the whole time. I feel really good about the current iteration of it. The sideboard is (obviously) wrong; I only had one extraction and one elemental. I never wanted Tarfires or Probes or Trunes.

I'm gonna write a tournament report maybe today or tomorrow and post it here or in the report section. I know I'm not perfect with the deck, but I consider myself better than average. And yes, I did luck out a few games during the day, but that just seems like the norm, at least whenever I play it. Haha.

A quick summary, for your consideration:
UWr Miracles 2-0
UWr Miracles 2-0
Burn 2-0
Lands 0-2
Patriot 2-1
RUG Delver 2-1
Punishing Jund 2-1
ANT 2-0
ANT 2-0

Shardless BUG 2-1
Elves 2-1
Sneak and Show 2-1

I am looking forward to your report. Btw, hopefully I did not offend when I said I saw some misplays on camera, maybe you were just on a different line than what I was thinking.

I forget which game, but against Shardless BUG you had a tropical island and wasteland while the opponent had 0 permenants. you opted to cast a ponder (looking for a second colored land, I assume), bricked, shuffled, and drew a scalding tarn instead of just casting the Tarmogoyf in your hand. Were you afraid of wasteland? Because if he wastes you, the board is still heavily in your favor, and you can just waste him back if he makes another land drop, so its 3-4 turns before he could possibly answer the tarmogoyf.

Against sneak and show, you forced of willed something leaving a force of will as the only card in your hand. So, if you draw a blue card you are in great shape (I think I would have done the same). You ended up ripping a brainstorm off the top and casting it (Revealing a bunch of blue cards including flusterstorm), were you fearful that you might not find a second blue source in the top 3 to turn your force of will on?

I 100% agree that you need at least a little luck on your side to take down a big event like an SCG Open, and am looking forward to your comments!

[Ziveeman]

Hi all;

I'm the guy who won at Nashville with RUG. I've been playing it for almost a year and a half, and my list has basically stayed the same the whole time. I feel really good about the current iteration of it. The sideboard is (obviously) wrong; I only had one extraction and one elemental. I never wanted Tarfires or Probes or Trunes.

I'm gonna write a tournament report maybe today or tomorrow and post it here or in the report section. I know I'm not perfect with the deck, but I consider myself better than average. And yes, I did luck out a few games during the day, but that just seems like the norm, at least whenever I play it. Haha.

A quick summary, for your consideration:
UWr Miracles 2-0
UWr Miracles 2-0
Burn 2-0
Lands 0-2
Patriot 2-1
RUG Delver 2-1
Punishing Jund 2-1
ANT 2-0
ANT 2-0

Shardless BUG 2-1
Elves 2-1
Sneak and Show 2-1

Congrats on the win!

[Exuberance]

SCG Nashville first place report up! (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27559-I-Am-RUG-Delver-and-So-Can-You-1st-at-SCG-Nashville)

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Hey guys, I played RUG Delver for the first time in a smaller 8 man and ended up going 3-0. I typically play homebrews and things of the like, but decided to play solid archetype for once (even though my list was a bit janky. Figured I'd do a mini write up.

My list was:
...

1st Round: Storm

Game 1 was a turn 1 Delver, turn 2 flipped and dropped a goyf for extra pressure. He tried to go off turn 3 but I had FOW with Spell Pierce as an extra counter. I'm not too experienced against Storm but I sided in 2 forces, 2 rebs, and a Flusterstorm. I took out 4 Dazes, 1 misdirection.
Hello JeCroisQue! Thanks for your reprot and congrats on nice finish? Have you won anything? I'm asking because it always pleases me when RUG players get some prizes, even something small or silly.. :laugh:

On your list: very untraditional. I'm glad that it worked for you, it's nice and surprising to see something different than the usual stock list, althogh I think that some of your choices might be questionable, esp. the two FoWs (three are much more reasonable as you already wrote).
I wouldn't side out Dazes against Strom. You need every counterspell. I'd cut Bolts/Fires (each has its own merit), Phantasmal Image and maybe some Mongoose. Even Mis-D might be useful against Therapies; nto that i matters that much, but it's still better to throw away Mis-D and random blue card (and see the opponent's hand), than lose the FoW/Pierce/Stifle they'd take from you.



SCG Nashville first place report up! (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27559-I-Am-RUG-Delver-and-So-Can-You-1st-at-SCG-Nashville)
Thanks a lot for the report! And of course: congratulations!

[Nihil Credo]

*holds Canadian Thresh hanging over the edge of the Tarpeian Rock by the scruff of its neck*

I wish to congratulate Canadian Thresh on its, to the best of my knowledge, unprecedented 27-month run as a fixture of the Decks To Beat forum, and look forward to seeing it back soon in the highest halls.

*drops Thresh off the cliff*

[Purgatory]

Jeez, Thresh dropped off DTB? It's time to go to work, people!

[JPoJohnson]

This is something I never expected to see!

[that0neguy]

If I understand the math behind the DTB, if the cuttoff had remained at 3.4% instead of increasing to 4.6%, it would have still been a dtb.

However, the fact that it was knocked out of even the top 3 is a pretty significant result.

[Purgatory]

If I understand the math behind the DTB, if the cuttoff had remained at 3.4% instead of increasing to 4.6%, it would have still been a dtb.

However, the fact that it was knocked out of even the top 3 is a pretty significant result.

Right, I Nihil Credo wrote about it in huge DTB Philisophy thread. This means we have two angles of attack:

1) Lobby to make Nihil Credo go back to the old cut-off.

2) Win more tournaments with Threshold.


Personally, I prefer the latter.

[Isre Morn]

So to all the true True RUG-Lovers out there. Let's get our baby back to DTB :)

[cheerios]

Let's make it happen

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

[Water_Wizard]

Starting with Return to Ravnica, considering the constant stream of hate directed against RUG, it's a wonder that it held on as long as it did. Personally, I don't think that RUG is that much less competitive, rather, that fewer players are choosing it in the light of True-Name Nemesis.

Rest in Peace, Deathrite Shaman, Abrupt Decay

Ruric Thar (sees minimal play, although clearly designed to silence RUG Delver).

When you look at most RUG lists, there have been very few additions (the lists haven't changed must since Delver was printed), but other decks picked up some strong hate.

True-Name Nemesis is interesting, because RUG has the capability to run it, but at 3 casting cost, it's not ideal for RUG's mana base. Additionally, RUG runs no equipment to enhance TNN, so other decks, like Patriot, Esper, and Bant, gain more from TNN's printing.

[Purgatory]

Sorry, but if you think Ruric Thar honestly was designed to hate on a Legacy deck, you need to lay off the Game of Thrones for a while.

[Blitzkreuz]

Are there any guys out there following Paris go? I am stuck at university and therefore cannot follow it. If there are some rug players out there would u mind posting how they do?

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[trollking21]

Sorry, but if you think Ruric Thar honestly was designed to hate on a Legacy deck, you need to lay off the Game of Thrones for a while.

The fact ruric thar is played anywhere at all is amazing.

[BlueP.]

Ruric Thar is only played in some elves build. Great card there, but interestingly not so efficient against Rug : often impales itself against Goyfs, at least in my experience (agree this is not a game-state which happens a lot of the time).
Printing of Abrupt Decay, Rest in Peace, Deathrite Shaman were all bullets shot in Thresh knees, although I think it wasn't one of the primary motivations for R&D as they are not too much focused on Legacy, which is completely understandable.
However, the fact that Thresh still maintained its position with such new cards is a testimony to the relevance of such a build and its consistency. TNN is a dumb card to my mind : Magic is all about interactions. Not as broken as Show and Tell, but the latter doesn't erase a variety of fair decks of the meta and needs a proper deckbuilding, it's not an "upgrade card" which can be thrown in existing archetypes. And we can interact with. I switched to UWR, because I wanted to be able to draw relevant comparisons between the two decks. I'll express my opinion in one sentence (I underline the word opinion, my statement is completely subjective and driven by affects :) ).

I don't care about DTB Status, there is only one true Delver deck, it has mongeese.

[Exuberance]

Don't worry guys, I'll just top 8 at Atlanta and Charlotte, raise some fractions of percentage points.

[GoldenCid]

Hi you all! I'm new to the deck but not to archetype. I have a question...for Budget reasons i have 2 volcanic and 1 taiga for red sources...do you consider it's a great disadvantage lacking 1 island while i try to get the 3rd volcanic? I own 3 trops and the corresponding fetchs.

Thx!!

GC.

[ShiftyKapree]

Hi you all! I'm new to the deck but not to archetype. I have a question...for Budget reasons i have 2 volcanic and 1 taiga for red sources...do you consider it's a great disadvantage lacking 1 island while i try to get the 3rd volcanic? I own 3 trops and the corresponding fetchs.

Thx!!

GC.

No you can get away with it, it just sucks when you need to daze, I use to run one Taiga back when choke was huge

[Grizzly_Bear]

As a long-time Canadian devotee, I personally love it when our deck falls out of DTB.
The longer the absence from DTB and the fewer people that plays the deck, the greater is the chance that your opponents walks right into your stifle! ;)

[Contract Killer]

So just finished a local 40 man and went 3/1 so not too bad. Running the same main as Taylor Scott's which seems really well rounded rather than my previous 3x snare, dismember, spell pierce. The sideboard though was:
3x Submerge, 3x pyroblast, 2x flusterstorm, 2x ancient grudge, 2x rough/tumble, grafdiggers cage, life from the loam, vendillion clique
* The lack of Sulfur Elementals is just due to the fact that there's only one or two people that occasionally play D&T at my local store.

Round 1 2/1 Burn
First game lost with him at three and me just short one counterspell to seal the deal. Game two was fast with two flipped delvers one that met a pyroblast. After the second delver died a goyf join him at a health 4/5 and won the game. Game 3 had a delver followed by a goose and then two goyfs further down and wasn't too bad.

Round 2 0/2 Esper Stoneblade
First game I had a bit of mana disruption, but my single threat was pulled turn one by a thoughtseize. I didn't draw anything soon enough and was soonly facing down a TNN equipped with a sword of fire and ice. Game 2 my delver was hit with swords to plowshares after my daze got countered by force. After that I stifled a fetch he resolved a stoneforge, but was stuck on two lands for a long time. While he was beating me over the head with a squire I was drawing grudge, pyroblast, flusterstorm, plenty of good stuff, but no can trips or threats. Finally he got two TNN out after about 10 turns of draw squire beat go and that was that.

Round 3 2/1 UWR Delver
Game one I lost all my mana to stifle with force back up and two wastelands. Game two was similar to the first, but the other way around. I opened stifle + daze back up. Turn two pondered into a second wasteland to accompany the one in my hand. After that goyf landed and that was that. Game three was close with a lot of back and forth, but snaring a RIP and landing a goyf got me there.

Round 4 2/1 Counter top
Game 1 I had a delver that got a few beats in then finally at 4 after having top out for a few turns found and out. After that with top + balance and no threat we moved to game two. Game two I had a goose that got him down to 8 played a 4/5 goyf passed. Force pitching daze got his Terminus and pyroblast hit his force that was that. Game 3 he mulled to 5 and the game wasn't even close.

With all that aside I do have some big tournaments coming up and I do have some sideboard questions. How are people siding against UWR delver, Esper stoneblade, Elves and counter top? These four decks are the most confusing for me because I kind of want to put everything in. For example, against both UWR delver, and esper I want to put in all 3 pyroblast, 2 flusterstorm, loam and grudge, but can never figure what to take out past the basic - 4 force/daze otp/otd. Elves + 3 submere, +2 rough but what should I take out? Goose and goyf kind of seem dead, but so does daze and snare seems to blank a lot too. Counter top I usually drop all burn and put in 3x pyroblast, 2x flusterstorm + 1 clique, but again more people are telling me to pull daze for this match up as well. To say the least I'm just confused since TNN entered the format and it seems like I have to bring in pyroblast and then other important hate on top of that. Just there doesn't seem enough to take out.

[BlueP.]

As a long-time Canadian devotee, I personally love it when our deck falls out of DTB.
The longer the absence from DTB and the fewer people that plays the deck, the greater is the chance that your opponents walks right into your stifle! ;)

Couldn't agree more. Stifle is a card people need to forget to play around.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Hi you all! I'm new to the deck but not to archetype. I have a question...for Budget reasons i have 2 volcanic and 1 taiga for red sources...do you consider it's a great disadvantage lacking 1 island while i try to get the 3rd volcanic? I own 3 trops and the corresponding fetchs.

Thx!!

GC.
In one of twenty games, you'd experience some color troubles. :rolleyes:
In one out of fourty games, you'd be sad because of unplayable Daze. :mad:
In one out of sixty games, you'd laugh at Choke. :tongue:

Good luck!



So just finished a local 40 man and went 3/1 so not too bad.
Congrats! A bit questionable sb, but as long as there's no W/x creature deck in your meta, it should be fine.


So just finished a local 12 man and went 3/1 so not too bad.


Qty Name
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
//\\
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
//\\
// Spells
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fire/Ice
//\\
// Sideboard
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sulfur Elemental

R1, S'Tsung, Punishing Jund (not knowing)
g1, otp, D7: Kept a shitty FoW, BS, five land hand with a pair of Wastes. The idea was to not FoW anything else then Lotus->Balance, then fetch away the chaffto find an answer for anything she'd play and Waste her out of game. It kinda worked, sadly she was able to stabilize although hit by several Stone Rains. I wasted w/e I could, suppressed her to 12 life but I lost after a horrid amount of burn, (dead) creatures, Punishing Fires, Wastes and double Lili.
sb: in 2 Roughs, 2 Submerge, 2 Needle, out 4 Fow and 2 ??? (probably Daze)
g2, otp, D7: Double Delver get there.
sb: I guess I switched the Fow/Daze count.
g3, otd, D7:Amazingly long game which i lost at the end. We exchanged extreme numbers of removal nad creatures, but although I was nigh able to cut her of red, she still stabilized at one life and the turn before I drawn a Bolt, she destroyed my penultimate Volc. If not for the (thrid) Lili that made short work of my hand (she had like.. eight counters?), Id maybe won, but this was too much too many and in the end S'Tsung finally drawn her Grove to deal the last two dmg needed to win this match. I really really hate Liliana of the Void and consider it more annoying and dangerous than JTMS? which at lest can be REBed, if only he ever etb, as the one mana more is a difference of light year.
Loss, 0:1.


R2, Lukáš, UWR Patriot (knowing)
g1, otp, D7: Lukáš sit right next to me, so I knew what I'm against. I played wrong (should have bolted Delver instead of Grim after Lukáš Wasted my only red) and lost on four life after I couldn't stabilize due to fast Delver rush. TNN ust sealed the deal.
sb: I completely messed this one, look it upi In 2 Roughs, 1 Grip, 2 Grudge, 2 Pyroblast, out counterspells. The idea was to fly over / break throguh with my dudes, then destroy any equipment to turn TNN into a Troll Ascetice that I'd fly over and/or burn through; thus I took out all FoWs and Dazes.
g2, otp, D7:I don't remeber much about this game, except that I ended on ten, while Lukáš lost on five.
sb: I switched to much ore reasonable setting with more counterspells in and some chaff axed. Don't ask for details, I don't remember them. I guess I took out Roughs; after all, they hit just SFM (and half of her job is done after the Demonic Tutor part resolves) and some irrelevant ground dudes like Grim and/or Pikula, maybe I even took out KGrip (there's nothing else to worry than RiP) and of course, I've cut Goyfs.
g2, otd, D7:An unbelievable game that I won on one life. Delver done mostof the job, then double Mongoose went home. Lukáš finished with a hand of 2 StP, 3 REBs, so that's about Goyf/Delver power. (Honestly though, Mongooses would be far less danting if not for the well placed Snare on RiP.) Funny thing is that Lukáš made what looked like a choice of Jitte over BSK with SFM (btw, it would be a good idea imho, as Jitte is live even post-Bolt), but at the end he had both of them, as BSK was already in his hand. Sadly (for him) I had Grudge at ready, so both equips were never relevant. I countered a TNN or two, too.
Win, 1:1.


R3, Ondra, UW(r?) Miracles, not knowing
g1, otp, D7: Ondra plays DnT regularly, but doesn't have just one deck, so the two Strands weren't that surprising. I hit him with double Stone Rain when he fetched in resp. to Mongoose, but one of them he avoided and then simply countered the critter. Stuck without any threat for several turns, I lost after CB, Top, Entreat sequence.
sb:In KGrip, REBs, Needle and Sulfur, out removal
g2, otp, D7: He completely rushed away and I was never in a game. I blasted one CB, but then another resolved. Not willing to wati for KGrip, I scooped. But as he was paired down, Ondra gave ma the match.
Intentional Win, 2:1.


I was really tired and not exactly thrilled about the whole tourney, so if not for the Ondra's scoop, I'd drop now. (Btw, in the afternoon I considered not even going, but as I rode for some cards, I decided to play.) This way I decided to stay, but I was so bored and homesick that I didn't even urinated (although I really needed that), because every simple activity bothered me to no ends.


R4, Tom, Depths Junk (guessed the GW part)
g1, ot?, R7: He mulled to five, nearly stabilized but then lost.
sb: I took out FoWs, Pierces and Dazes and brought Submerges, Roughs, Needles, Sulfur and Grudges. (kinda like that...)
g2, otd, D7: I pressed a bit, then KotR blocked my path and Wasted my colored mana after he blocked the honey badger. Otoh, I Wasted his only land, rode Goyf through and then we watched at each other. I drawn the Trop, played another mongoose and then dealt the last two dmg.
Win, 3:1.


props:
- smooth draws and overal deck flow. I had no mulligan at all (although I should have shipped back ther R1g1 hand) and everything works as intended.
- creature suite
- heavy anti-equips sb

neutral:
- Fire//Ice made very little except for tapping BSK token which didn't even matter. I never pitched it, so I may return to FB. (Forked Bolt, not Facebook.) If only I could find the Chinese ones.

cons:
- TNN. I still can't play against it.
- Legacy overall. I need to take a break, I'm quite fed up with the game/format.
- Only twelve ppl showing. Not that it matters, I'd still paly with only four of them, but something like 20+ would be more important. I guess all the guys were on their way form GP, or maybe they were tired of MtG, or w/e.
- store's unavailibility of Serrated Biskelions and Rowen.


For my efforts I won:
1 Jalum Tome
2 Tsunami
3 Perfect Fits (http://www.potomacdist.com/images/temp/kmcpssbi2_250.jpg)
4 Jolrael's Centaur

[ShiftyKapree]

What are your guys thoughts on playing Cursed Totem back in the sideboard again?

[Blitzkreuz]

I think pithing needle is better. Costs less and is generally more flexible

Gesendet von meinem HTC One X+ mit Tapatalk

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I see the same number of Lilianas as Mothers/Elves. Thus I decided for Needle, but if the small green/white dudes make a comeback, I may include one into my sb. But I'm still not sure if it's necessary with all our burn and Roughs.

[Exuberance]

So just finished a local 40 man and went 3/1 so not too bad. Running the same main as Taylor Scott's which seems really well rounded rather than my previous 3x snare, dismember, spell pierce. The sideboard though was:
3x Submerge, 3x pyroblast, 2x flusterstorm, 2x ancient grudge, 2x rough/tumble, grafdiggers cage, life from the loam, vendillion clique
* The lack of Sulfur Elementals is just due to the fact that there's only one or two people that occasionally play D&T at my local store.

With all that aside I do have some big tournaments coming up and I do have some sideboard questions. How are people siding against UWR delver, Esper stoneblade, Elves and counter top? These four decks are the most confusing for me because I kind of want to put everything in. For example, against both UWR delver, and esper I want to put in all 3 pyroblast, 2 flusterstorm, loam and grudge, but can never figure what to take out past the basic - 4 force/daze otp/otd. Elves + 3 submere, +2 rough but what should I take out? Goose and goyf kind of seem dead, but so does daze and snare seems to blank a lot too. Counter top I usually drop all burn and put in 3x pyroblast, 2x flusterstorm + 1 clique, but again more people are telling me to pull daze for this match up as well. To say the least I'm just confused since TNN entered the format and it seems like I have to bring in pyroblast and then other important hate on top of that. Just there doesn't seem enough to take out.

I might cut the second Spell Snare for... something, but Rest in Peace is a card that I need to respect. So I'm probably just going to keep it as is. I'm considering cutting the Elemental and a Submerge for... something, maybe a Pithing Needle and something spicy like a Phantasmal Image. Or a second Grudge or a Clique. Don't feel that great about having two Ancient Grudge though. Eh. My next tournament is in ATL, so I have some time to decide.

As for sideboarding... consider the following:

3 Submerge
3 REB
2 Flusterstorm
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Rough // Tumble
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction

UWr Delver:
+2 Ancient Grudge
+3 REB
OTD -3 Daze -2 FoW
OTP -1 Daze -3 FoW -1 Pierce

You really are just worried about Trune and Rest in Peace post board. Equipment does nothing if they have no guys to equip.

EsperBlade:
...same? I'm pretty sure the same. Feels like a similar matchup to me, except Esper has worse mana.

Elves!:
+3 Submerge
+2 Rough // Tumble
+2 Grafdigger's Cage
-1 Pierce -2 Snare -2 Daze -2 FoW

Just overload on removal and keep a couple of Forces in for NOrder.

CounterTop:
+3 REB
+1 Grudge
-2 Forked Bolt -2 Daze

If playing SFM:
+3 REB
+2 Grudge
OTD -3 Daze -2 FoW
OTP -2 Daze -3 FoW

They rarely play SFM anyway (but occasionally Helm/BSkull). I try and save my Stifles for Miracle triggers. They can always top into more lands.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I'd keep four FoWs against Elves and completely cut Dazes.

[Exuberance]

I'd keep four FoWs against Elves and completely cut Dazes.

Yeah, you're probably right.

[index]

And cut the stifles, they won't do anything. And board in the flusterstorms, they hit the combo pieces of elves.

the right boarding against elves is:

-4 stifle
-4 daze

+ X submerge
+ X Flusterstorm
+ X rough
+ X Grafdiggers Cage

[Exuberance]

And cut the stifles, they won't do anything. And board in the flusterstorms, they hit the combo pieces of elves.

the right boarding against elves is:

-4 stifle
-4 daze

+ X submerge
+ X Flusterstorm
+ X rough
+ X Grafdiggers Cage
On the topic of Stifle vs. elves, I find that destroying the relatively fragile mana base of elves really buys me a lot of time to win the game. Also, I have stifled a Craterhoof trigger that gave me the extra turn I needed to attack with Aberration. I'd maybe cut one Stifle but certainly not all four.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

On the topic of Stifle vs. elves, I find that destroying the relatively fragile mana base of elves really buys me a lot of time to win the game. Also, I have stifled a Craterhoof trigger that have me the extra turn I needed to attack with Aberration. I'd maybe cut one Stifle but certainly not all four.
You definitely want to sb in Roughs and Cages. Submerge does very little (it returns one of their many weenies to the top) and Flusterstorm is good only in certain siuation. Maybe -4 Daze, +2 Rough and +2 Cage is enough?

[poxy14]

And cut the stifles, they won't do anything. And board in the flusterstorms, they hit the combo pieces of elves.

the right boarding against elves is:

-4 stifle
-4 daze

this is also my gameplan vs ELVES, and havent lost (vs this archetype 4-0) since my inclusion of graf's in my sb cutting surgicals...
+ 2 grafdiggers (my counter spell vs GSZ, NO)
+ 2 pithing needles (vs drs, symbiote...)
+ 2 rough...of course!
+ 3 submerges.. less 1 fow....in my MD are 3 pierce/1 fice/2forked...

[Mr. Crane]

Mongoose, not very good against elves, - 2/3, 4 if you have Clique. Daze not is amazing, but combine with pierce/flusterstorm x natural order and big zeniths(for behemont, ruric thar).

[Contract Killer]

3 Submerge
3 REB
2 Flusterstorm
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Rough // Tumble
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction

UWr Delver:
+2 Ancient Grudge
+3 REB
OTD -3 Daze -2 FoW
OTP -1 Daze -3 FoW -1 Pierce

You really are just worried about Trune and Rest in Peace post board. Equipment does nothing if they have no guys to equip.

EsperBlade:
...same? I'm pretty sure the same. Feels like a similar matchup to me, except Esper has worse mana.

Elves!:
+3 Submerge
+2 Rough // Tumble
+2 Grafdigger's Cage
-1 Pierce -2 Snare -2 Daze -2 FoW

Just overload on removal and keep a couple of Forces in for NOrder.

CounterTop:
+3 REB
+1 Grudge
-2 Forked Bolt -2 Daze

If playing SFM:
+3 REB
+2 Grudge
OTD -3 Daze -2 FoW
OTP -2 Daze -3 FoW

They rarely play SFM anyway (but occasionally Helm/BSkull). I try and save my Stifles for Miracle triggers. They can always top into more lands.

Hmmm I like the plan against UWR delver. I feel like postboard with 6 burn spells, 2 snares, 3 pyroblast and a grudge or two we can neutralize their 10 threats easily enough. I am surprised that you don't think we need loam against UWR delver. I mean I know we don't need it, but it just gives an easy win against a deck with no basics. Maybe something like otd: - 4 daze, -2 force / +3 pyroblast, +2 grudge + loam otp: - 4 force, - spell pierce, - stifle.
As for counter top why should we board grudge? I guess it's an answer for a counter balance lock in response to a top flip, but that does seem like a narrow margin. I do think flusterstorm is really good in the match up being able to make sure certain spells get past their force back up. Another good card here is Vendilion Clique since you can rip a miracle card from their hand before they cast in response to the trigger.
I'm trying to fine tune my sideboard for this Sunday so far this is what I got:
3x submerge, 3x pyroblast, 2x rough, sulfur elemental, life from the loam, flusterstorm, ancient grudge, grafdigger's cage

The other two spots are currently being held by ancient grudge and flusterstorm. I'm just trying to find room for a vendilion clique. Not sure if I want to cut the second flusterstorm which lets face it we have a good combo match already or the second grudge. On the off chance I run into tezzerator or affinity the second grudge would be really helpful and I've never ran less then two artifact hate spells for stoneforge lists.

[ShiftyKapree]

What if we played Wooded Foothills instead of Misty rainforests and ran a single bayou in the sideboard and cut the two rough for two Golgari charms?

[sawatarix]

The idea existed ones,
Rug which becomes a 4 colour deck with golgari charm and underground sea in the sideboard.
Unfortunately it's bad.

If you really want to play Charm,switch to Burg or Bug Delver.
(I highly recommend Burg because the deck is quite powerful in my opinion,haven't played with such a broken deck so far.)



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I played RUG again and finished in money... :cool:
Fifth out of sixteen and I grabbed 230 crowns. :laugh:

I played this list:

//Qty Name
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
//\\
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
//\\
// Spells
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fire/Ice
//\\
// Sideboard
2 Rough
2 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sulfur Elemental


I got incoming chinese Artifact Mutation. I think it'll be very good in Batterskull matchups. Until it comes, I'll use the two Grudges.

Warning! Thread derail!

[SCD] Jalum Tome
I was soon enough in the lgs to chat a bit with the crew and I whined a bit that they don't have Jalum Tome. I need one more Jalum Tome for my Erhnamgeddon, but both shops in Prague don't have them. (Yep, I already bought two from the other shop, but only to realize one of the Tomes is out of Anthologies. I knew something was wrong, but I found it too late.) Sad, sad day for humanity, I need a Jalum Tome out of Chronicles.
So I bought a Rishadan Port and three Rowens, and then asked why they don't have Jalum Tome, if it's possible that someone speculates with them or what.


R1, Martin, ANT (I should have guessed his deck)
I sold Deltas and some ANT cards to Martin, but I haven't remebered it, otherwise I'd mull the hand
g1, otd, keep 7:I layed down a Delver, Dazed GP, thrown Bolt into Duress and played two more Mongooses before Martin PiFed me on his eight life staring at lethal.
sb:out 4 Mongooses, 2 Fire/Ice 1 Bolt or F/I, in 2 REBs, 1 Flusterstorm, 2 Roughs and 2 Cages
g2, otp, keep 7: I played a fast Cage and Delver with Daze and FoW backup, and I drawn few additional protection, sadly it was a bad one like another Cage. Soon I was stuck with useless cards in hand and no BS to improve this, so I lost.
Loss, 0:1.


R2, Lukáš, Elves (known)
I saw him playing the deck, so at least I knew what I'm against.
g1, otp, keep 7:I Stifled his fetch and as he was completely perplexed about this, I realized he might be new to the format.He played many more Elves amongst which were DRS, Priest of T. (Forced), Quirion, Nettle Sentinel. I had Goyf out and on oppoenen's nine I played Delver. Lukáš tried GSZ which I Snared, but then he got Archdruid which let him cast Emrakul, the Omnomnomsix. I Stifled the TW trigger. Then on my next turn I attacked into Emmy and Frineds with Delver and Goyf, and Lukáš blocked just Goyf going down to what I thought were two life. I had Lightning Bolt in hand and should have bolted Lukáš during the attack and it'll be over once SBEs would kick in. But I forogt about it and then it was abit late, so I pased and hoped he'll tap the DRS in eot and I'll win in response. But he just untapped, upkeepd, drawn and resolved... Glimpse of Nature.

Ok, so now he went completely crazy! In no particular order he played two Cantrip Elves, two more DRS, a pair of mana Elves, maybe Archdruid, one Symbiont, returned the Cantrip Elf and replayed him/her, got another Quirion, untapped Archdruid to cast Regal Force. Drawn a second Glimpse, played it. Played some more elves, drawn and played Crossroads, played Priest, played several "tap two/three elves to add two/three mana" elvish druids, played some more Elves and finally ended with about thirty cards drawn and about the same number of permanents otb.

http://img.izismile.com/img/img6/20131217/1000/some_people_that_are_clearly_on_drugs_01.gif

He tapped the horde to deal about fifity damage (and eat my board, of course), but remeber: I've had a small trick up my sleeve.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=2291&type=card

I didn't wish to be prick, neither I needed to see his whole deck. Remember, I thought he's on two life, so I needed him to bury the multiple DRS under other cards and forget about them. This happened and Lukáš scooped, but after the match he told me that I was wrong (which was good for me), because he was on one life, and there was just one Goyf in gy, the one that Emrakul ate. I could have easily won on my last turn, but this definitely worth it.
sb: out all Mongooses nad Dazes, in 2 Cage, 2 Rough, 2 Needle and maybe 2 Submerge.
g2, otd, keep 7: Lukáš went to five and after double Rough he lost to Delver. I'd lose this game, though, if only he'd resolve the first Thorn of Your Rough Can't Be Played.
Win, 1:1.


This is when I normally trade somecards, but I didn't bring my binder today as I was lazy to carry it. Also, no one seemed to have any Jalum Tome.


R3, Marek, Mirror (unknown)
This was very nice match. Althoguh Marek started in very bad way (he tried to Daze my Daze although I announced I float one blue), but othe than this mistake, it was pretty interesting and swingy Magic. Unfortunately, mirror matches are hard to describe and any point-by-point replay would be boring to read.
"Ponder, Daze, in resp. fetch, in resp. Stifle, in resp. fetch, REB, FoW, Pierce" etc., everybody will just get lost in it.
g1, otp, keep 7: I won with a single Mongoose after my Delver was FBed and Marek's Goyf was it by Snare.
sb:Out Forces and 1 Daze?; in 2 Submerge, 2 Blasts, 1 Flusterstorm?
g2, otd, keep 7: I have no notes. I think I simply tapped Delver for several times and then I won.


R4, Jára, WUBG goodstuff.dec with DRS, SFM, TNN and such (unknown)
I won the die roll although Jára rolled eighteen.
g1, otp, keep 7: two threshed Mongooses are nothing to laugh at. The only interesting interaction was betwen Clique and Bolt... and then some tricks with SFM and Stifle.
sb:Out Goyfs and some card (Daze?), in two Grudges (this is where Mutation wouldbe perfect), 2 REBs, and Flus
g2, otd, keep 7: I had no pressure at all for quite some time, but I destroyed any relevant card Jára got. But then he ripped RiP and it was quite a bit worse, esp. when I lost the Grduge in gy. Nvm, I got another one, so the two SFMs were left without upgrade. But they still attacked for 2 per turn and I dropped to 13 when I finally drawn the Delver. Now it was a true race and in the final turns we've played a real Magic of real Magicians... but alas, I made no notes. But it was a pretty thrilling match. and I won it.
Win, 3:1.


As the other players did not finish yet, I moved to the desk again, where the lgs owner was. We talked a bit, and before he left, I made a complaint about the missing Jalum Tome. I can't understand how on earth they can provide Planeswalker Services 24/7 and not have a Jalum Tome for their loyal customer. Horrible. Horrible! :laugh:

Then all the other ppl finished and I was third-fifth. So I got some small credit which I may use to purchase the Jalum Tome once it shows up.


Thoughts:
Fire//Ice ain't that brilliant. in fact I may opt for FB.
I need Artifact Mutation (and that Jalum Tome), because Grudge loses half of its power under RiP while Mutation may destroy Batterskull (ok, or Jalum Tome) and give me some clock, which is esp. necessary when I take out dead threats.
One Goyf might be kept against RiP.dec to function like Delver/Mongoose no.5
Mirror match! Wow, one would say it's not even possible these days...

[Contract Killer]

I need Artifact Mutation (and that Jalum Tome), because Grudge loses half of its power under RiP while Mutation may destroy Batterskull (ok, or Jalum Tome) and give me some clock, which is esp. necessary when I take out dead threats.


Great report, but fair warning about Artifact Mutation the mana does cause for some concern. For the decks you want to put it in against D&T, UWR Delver and Esper stoneblade at least the first two have mana disruption. What I found was against D&T and UWR Delver I had more than a few times where it was dead due to lack of one color or another. I will admit when it did resolve on a batterskull it was pretty much game breaking.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Great report, but fair warning about Artifact Mutation the mana does cause for some concern. For the decks you want to put it in against D&T, UWR Delver and Esper stoneblade at least the first two have mana disruption. What I found was against D&T and UWR Delver I had more than a few times where it was dead due to lack of one color or another. I will admit when it did resolve on a batterskull it was pretty much game breaking.

Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed the report, it's quite embarassing to write about those sub-20 ppl tourneys, but that's how life goes.

I never realized that the mana could be such a problem, but as long as it's the only one spell, I hope it'll be playeble. We got Stifle for Wastes and I play Needle (to name Port) so I hope I'll be able to use it. Aslo, if they go for BSK, I hope they won't be able to heavily destroy my lands, as SFM and her activation needs mana. If, on the other hand, they'd get her of Vial and then simply have enough lands for both the activation and Waste, I'm doomed, yep. But I still wish to try the mix.

[Contract Killer]

Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed the report, it's quite embarassing to write about those sub-20 ppl tourneys, but that's how life goes.

I never realized that the mana could be such a problem, but as long as it's the only one spell, I hope it'll be playeble. We got Stifle for Wastes and I play Needle (to name Port) so I hope I'll be able to use it. Aslo, if they go for BSK, I hope they won't be able to heavily destroy my lands, as SFM and her activation needs mana. If, on the other hand, they'd get her of Vial and then simply have enough lands for both the activation and Waste, I'm doomed, yep. But I still wish to try the mix.

I definitely liked the 1/1 split between artifact mutation and ancient grudge when I tried it. The main issue I was having was with porting my lands on my upkeep then not having access to r/g on their turn. Pithing needle should help that something I didn't have. That and UWR delver wasteland then countering a key brainstorm and never finding mana x again.
Still trying to figure out my sideboard so far I have:
3x submerge
3x pyroblast
2x rough
grafdigger's cage
sulfur elemental
flusterstorm
ancient grudge
vendilion clique
???

I've mainly narrowed it down to either another grudge for equipment hate and incase I run into tezzerator/affinity. The other option is another flusterstorm for more combo hate which I'm not sure I need, but I wouldn't mind it for the show & tell match up.

[Serbitar]

Has anyone gotten any testing done with the Phantasmal Image tech suggested a while back? A friend of mine played it at the GP Sideevent and from what I've gathered he liked it.

On other to-fight-TNN-notes, if Miracles can get away with it, is there any chance we can maindeck a Pyroblast? (My guess is this is only feasible in big tournaments.)

[Contract Killer]

Has anyone gotten any testing done with the Phantasmal Image tech suggested a while back? A friend of mine played it at the GP Sideevent and from what I've gathered he liked it.

On other to-fight-TNN-notes, if Miracles can get away with it, is there any chance we can maindeck a Pyroblast? (My guess is this is only feasible in big tournaments.)

I haven't tried the phantasmal image tech, but I might look into it. It's a nice out to TNN or at least a clock/threat that they can't disrupt or block forever. As for pyroblast main I highly doubt it. We have a total of about 6 flex spots main and we don't want any dead cards. The cards people use fire/ice, forked bolt, spell pierce, spell snare, etc are live in almost every match up in some way. Pyroblast is just too narrow to run mainboard. It definitely hits things across the board, but do you really want to draw it against elves, D&T, Jund, (insert non blue deck)? As much as I want to kill TNN we can't dilute our mainboard with strictly dead cards in some match ups that we are likely to see even in big events.

[Exuberance]

I feel like having Sulfur Elemental in the board is pretty unnecessary in this current meta, at least in North America - Trune has really helped push down the popularity of Death and Taxes. My sideboard for the next big tournament next week in Atlanta:
3 REB variant
2 Rough // Tumble
2 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Pithing Needle
2 Submerge
1 undecided - a third Submerge, a Loam, a Spell Pierce?

[sawatarix]

I would increase the number of submerge - team america is now a deck you have to respect.

Pithin needle is a good one,i've phyrexian revoker in my sideboard as it also stops LEDs against any kind of Storm.
You won't name a land with needle anyway (exception:T.Stage)




- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Contract Killer]

I feel like having Sulfur Elemental in the board is pretty unnecessary in this current meta, at least in North America - Trune has really helped push down the popularity of Death and Taxes. My sideboard for the next big tournament next week in Atlanta:
3 REB variant
2 Rough // Tumble
2 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Pithing Needle
2 Submerge
1 undecided - a third Submerge, a Loam, a Spell Pierce?

I guess I could drop a sulfur elemental in hopes of not running into D&T. I do think we still want 3 submerge if not only for Team America, but also as an out against Marit Lage tokens incase that deck keeps becoming popular.
so now I have this:
3x pyroblast
3x submerge
2x rough // tumble
2x ancient grudge
2x flusterstorm
1x life from the loam
1x grafdigger's cage
1x vendilion clique

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I would increase the number of submerge - team america is now a deck you have to respect.

Pithin needle is a good one,i've phyrexian revoker in my sideboard as it also stops LEDs against any kind of Storm.
You won't name a land with needle anyway (exception:T.Stage)




- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

I like to name Port. And sometimes (in one out of hundred games) you may name Maze.

I'm not sure if three Submerges are needed, but if I had to name a card which I'm missing in my "2 Submerges" board, it'll be something against Goyfs, Tombstalkers and Marit Lage.

[poxy14]

@bed decks palyer: congrats on ur finish! im glad we're showing good results still...

Played on a 10+ small tourney last night, was suppose to sleeve up UG Infect, but when i saw 2 guys playing UWR miracles before the game, i went back to my "old reliable"...

finished 1st (3-0) and id'ed my last match vs my friend who piloted my other deck (all spells), only the 2 of us finished 3-0 going to the next round, so we decided to just have our dinner, coz we're both hungry at that time..we both won passes for next week's major tourney (in which i wont be able to play due to company outing : ( , and resulted for me opting for store credits, atleast i was able to support my "ooops" deck due to getting a discounted LED : )

list was:

4 delvers, 3 goyfs, 3 goose, 2 tnn
3 pierce, 2 forked, 1 fice (snareless, probeless)

sb:
1 pyro
2 reb
1 grudge
1 destructive revelry
2 grafdigger's
2 rough
1 sulfur elem.
2 pithing needles
3 submerges (im thinking of cutting 1, i dont see lots of kotr, scav ooze anymore...) might replace this with pierce or snare...

round 1 (2-0 vs mirror)
i thought tommie was playing ad naus when he started fetching for usea, then landed a delver..im glad i kept a handfull of wastes and a lone fetch to really disrupt his base, was never able to get back on track as i did able to get a burn somewhere in the middle to kill his lone delver, game two's almost the same, we both landed 2 goyfs, but i was ahead and 2 times he just stayed at home blocking mine..the third time he blocked each of my goyfs i was able to get a forked sealing the game by killing 2 of his creatures

round 2 (2-0 vs goblins)
never expected to see this deck anymore, from what i recalled i lost many matches vs this with rug..game one i was able to ponder for tons of burn, with him playing cavern, upon brainstorming i submerged all my counters and dig deep for removals establishing with 2 goose and a goyf, game 2 when i pithed krenko, letting go of the vial and at lethal when he attacked i managed to block his 9-2 piledriver with a sulfur and blocked krenko with my goyf, ending combat with the goyf being the only crit invulnerable to ROUGH! which i drew next turn.

round 3 (2-1 vs patriot)
won game 1 easily vs numerous stifles, game two was a misplay over committing fetching trops when i have no crits still thus loosing them all to wastes, after he landed his 3rd TNN ( i reb'ed the two) i scooped...game 3 when i landed delver, it flipped then landed delver and a backup stifle for his second land...it was fast.

Knowing that uwrpatriot left the stifle plan already, it gives me much confidence battling this deck...there are numerous SFM's that landed just to be met by fire immediately. With 2TNN's too, im not worried bout batterskull anymore.. i would always imagine me getting ahead vs this deck if i play tight and know that it's very dangerous when it reaches 3 mana...that'll be very difficult if it faces RUG...

thanks for reading guys!

[sawatarix]

My Buddy Saito Nobuo from Japan wrote a nice article about Rug Delver and it's performance in Tokyo.
We tested and tuned a lot since 2012 and here you have it.

http://www.happymtg.com/column/saito_nobuo_column/15070/

He is also talking about the 6 Bolt-strategie.
After 6 Bolts (Delver/Gooseattack counts as 1 Bolt,then of course bolt itself) you win the game.
I sounds kinda similar to a burndecks strategie (which shouldn't be Rug's)
But you should always opt to save bolts.throwing them at the opponents face instead of killing creatures can be the right decision sometimes.
We both added 2 Price of Progress in our sideboard and tricky Matchups like Shardless Bug,Esper Deathblade,Lands and Bug-walker became pretty good.
Punishing the opponents manabase from 2 different angles seems pretty powerful and i like it a lot right now.
My Maindeck feels like a machine gun with 7 Bolts.
(4 Lightning Bolts,3 Chain Lightning)


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[GoldenCid]

I guess I could drop a sulfur elemental in hopes of not running into D&T. I do think we still want 3 submerge if not only for Team America, but also as an out against Marit Lage tokens incase that deck keeps becoming popular.
so now I have this:
3x pyroblast
3x submerge
2x rough // tumble
2x ancient grudge
2x flusterstorm
1x life from the loam
1x grafdigger's cage
1x vendilion clique

Any proportion of enchant hate is needed?

I post my list. i'm new to the deck but i face it many times:

3 Tropical
2 volcanic
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Scalding
3 Misty rainforest
1 Verdant catacombs

4 Goyf
4 Delver
4 Mongoose

4 Fow
4 Daze
2 Pierce
2 Spell snare
4 Bolt
1 Forked bolt
1 Fire//Ice
4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Stifle

SB.

3 REB
2 Cage
3 Submerge
2 Rough
2 Flusterstorm
2 K. grip
1 Grudge

comments are very welcomed.

GC

[sawatarix]

Taiga only if choke is a card


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Congrats! I'm surprised with the two TNNs, they look quite mana-hungry, but if that works for you, I won't argue! :wink:

[Blitzkreuz]

Sawatarix is there the possibility of viewing the article in english? Google translate gives me only a rough idea of the whole article

Gesendet von meinem HTC One X+ mit Tapatalk

[GoldenCid]

Taiga only if choke is a card


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

Ok. For the rest no comments?

[sawatarix]

Blitzkreuz,unfortunately there is no english version of te article.
The easiest way to understand it would be:

1. Find a japanese
2. convince him/her to translate the article.
Hint: Try to offer Candys,sometimes it works.
3. You can now play Legacys best Tempo Deck




- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Ok. For the rest no comments?

Too many KGrips. Other than that, list looks solid, I'm not sure about Taiga, see one of my above posts.

[GoldenCid]

Too many KGrips. Other than that, list looks solid, I'm not sure about Taiga, see one of my above posts.

1 is enough? Or suggest other enchant hate?

[Purgatory]

Won a small local tourney, going 5-1 over the course of the day, here's my list, and the matches:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt

SB:
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Flusterstorm
2 Submerge
3 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Rough // Tumble
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
1 Artifact Mutation
1 Tormod's Crypt


G1: Junkblade 0-2
G2: Miracles 2-0
G3: BW Deathblade 2-0
G4: Dredge 2-1

SF: Dredge 2-0
F: BW Deathblade 2-1


I wish I had room for another artifact destruction spell in the board, but otherwise the deck felt really solid. I'm moving over to TA for some time now to test for BoM 9, so it was A Good Thing to go out on a win. I only got a few packs for my troubles, but the tournament is in a sort of a league system with another finals tournament later this year, and this win puts me in a nice place for that.

TNN over performed, sadly. I really wish he sucked, but he was awesome all day. I would've lost against BW Blade in the finals if he was Tarmogoyf no 4.

Edit: I also got to live the dream and Artifact Mutation a Batterskull :)

[trollking21]

1 is enough? Or suggest other enchant hate?

1 is enough, also by are you running a verdant catacomb in your lost?

[Exuberance]

We both added 2 Price of Progress in our sideboard and tricky Matchups like Shardless Bug,Esper Deathblade,Lands and Bug-walker became pretty good.
Punishing the opponents manabase from 2 different angles seems pretty powerful and i like it a lot right now.

I am just completely enamored with the idea of putting two or three copies of Price of Progress in my sideboard now. Ugh, man, I have to now.

[poxy14]

once again...RUG is in the finals over at SCG St. Louis! (3 Opens in a row!)

[sawatarix]

Exuberance,
Postboard this Deck kinda feels like UR Delverburn but with better creatures.
And the best thing: Nobody expects it!



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Contract Killer]

Well finished a 71 player tournament 7 rounds cut to top 8 with duals as prizes. I went a dismal 2/3 drop I'll write up a report in a little while. I know I made at least one game losing mistake and maybe one other, but it was much more obscure. Overall just kind of bad match ups well non favorable and by that I mean no combo decks.

[cheerios]

So it seems like we have to play TNN even in the sideboard. Glad to see the deck surviving.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

1 is enough? Or suggest other enchant hate?
I think one is enough unless you regularly run into Counterbalance or RiP, then two may be right number. It costs three mana, so it's not easy to play.



Won a small local tourney, going 5-1 over the course of the day, here's my list, and the matches:

...

TNN over performed, sadly. I really wish he sucked, but he was awesome all day. I would've lost against BW Blade in the finals if he was Tarmogoyf no 4.

Edit: I also got to live the dream and Artifact Mutation a Batterskull :)
Congratulatons! Esp. on the "live your dream" part. (Otoh, I'm less thrilled of the TNN, I hope it won't become a next RUG staple.)



Well finished a 71 player tournament 7 rounds cut to top 8 with duals as prizes. I went a dismal 2/3 drop I'll write up a report in a little while. I know I made at least one game losing mistake and maybe one other, but it was much more obscure. Overall just kind of bad match ups well non favorable and by that I mean no combo decks.
I'm interested in the report.

[sawatarix]

I'm just not a big fan of boarding both Tnn and Rough against the same decks like Jund,Junk,Maverick,...
A friend of mine also suggested electrickery which goes hand in hand with true name.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Contract Killer]

Ok so here is my tournament report from the legacy for duals event I went to Sunday. The turn out was 71 people and there were a lot of the local sharks that I knew at least a few with SCG top 8s. With that being said I entered the fray with Taylor’s main 60, but with a different sideboard.
Sideboard:
3x submerge
2x pyroblast, 1x red elemental blast
2x rough // tumble
2x ancient grudge
2x grafdigger’s cage
1x flusterstorm
1x life from the loam
1x vendilion clique

Round 1 UWR Delver
So game 1 I start out on the play and keep a solid 7 delver hand. Open with delver pass. My opponent then played a ponder off of volcanic leading me to think either combo or RUG/UWR delver. It resolves he shuffles and passes. Delver flips I swing play a fetch pass back. He ponders again shuffles again passes back. After that I assumed he was tempo with a bad single land hand on the draw. I wasteland and deny him mana with a stifle on his fetch and eventually win with my delver.

Game 2 starts out good I resolve a goyf turn two here he also kept a 1 land hand and is playing catch up most of the game. Eventually turn 4 I play a second goyf with one fetch up and him having two lands and no threat. He plays jitte off his two lands and here’s where I punted and my hand is Force, flusterstorm, 2x snare, bolt. I snare the jitte he forces back (he has 2 cards in hand) I force back wanting to make my goyfs 4/5 for a 2 turn clock with him at 16 and he dazes and it resolves. I swing put him to 10 pass back. He plays RIP and here I am sitting like an idiot with a flusterstorm in hand so it resolves. After that I brick on draws he follows up RIP with a TNN then equips jitte and it just goes down hill from there.

Game 3 I mull a no lander to a sketchy 6 of trop, goyf, delver, pyroblast, lightning bolt, ancient grudge. I lead delver go. He does turn 1 wasteland and I brick the rest of the game. When I did get a land 3 turns down the road he has another waste and the game was a complete wash.

Round 2 Affinity

I start out on the play again lead with a delver plus daze back up. Then stuff gets stupid my opponent dumps his hand and is playing affinity. I don’t remember the details but it was a mox opal, springleaf, and ornithoper hand that just is the nuts. He does play around daze and passes. I swing delver. He swings with signal + ornithopter + vault skirge. We trade hits until I bolt his skirge with me at 15 and him at 14. Then he plays cranial swings puts me down to 5. I play a goyf with a bolt in hand or something swing pass. I go to two he plays another cranial passes. Then we stall out him have an ornithoper + memnite equipped with platings and me having a goyf + delver and he’s at 8. Eventually I draw another goyf press for a bit of damage then draw another goyf and win at 2 life.

Game 2 he starts out with a good hand with turn 1 stoneforge. I play delver pass knowing he can’t play it and equip without meeting my force of will (something to do with his mana configuration I forget what something about only having white off of his mox I think). He continues to dump his hand playing arcbound and activating stoneforge for his plating passes. I top deck a grudge play a second delver pass with bolt up. He plays master swings 5 at me I fall to 13. I grudge both arcbound and master while he has no other artifact creatures so arcbound’s modular will blank, wasteland him and swing for 6 in the air. After that he scoops shortly after.

Round 3 Merfolk

I get to be on the play again. While I didn’t do well in the tournament I did only lose one die roll which was a plus. I lead delver go and my opponent plays island aether vial which meets a force. I swing delver pass she tries to get a silvergill which gets dazed. The rest of the game was pretty much me snaring and bolting anything relevant while beating with my delver.

Game 2 I keep a solid creature heavy hand 2x delver, goyf, 2x land, bolt, pyroblast. This game was just crushing she didn’t have aether vial and has no turn 1 play I lead with delver. She plays a silvergill which resolves revealing a lord. Turn two I play a second delver and forked bolt the silvergill. Turn 3 I play a goyf swing in the air putting her to 13. Next turn I snare her other creature pyroblast the lord and swing in with the team leaving her at 2.
Normally a bad match up but both games I kind of had the nuts which does help hahaha.

Round 4 UWR Delver again damn I hate this match up

I open volcanic delver go. My opponent spends a lot of time looking at his 8 and eventually leads wasteland leaving me very in the dark about what he’s on. Delver flips I swing in add a goose to the table with a force in hand. He bolts my delver I force he dazes back. While this seemed bad with me having a goose out and him down two turns on lands it wasn’t that bad. I start to play the control roll slowly beating with goose for 3 turns. Eventually it gets to threshold after snaring a stoneforge. The game grinds out for a long time with me fighting through batterskull twice. The first time I stifle the trigger. It gets down to him at 3 and me with ponder, ponder, force in hand. On his turn it plays batterskull with one mana up (probably playing around stifle). I ponder, shuffle, ponder find bolt use it expecting spell pierce but instead it was swords on his own stoneforge leaving him at 1. He swings I take next turn play another goose end up double blocking. Eventually he stabilizes and I scoop. Unfortunately this game left us with 20mins for our 2nd and 3rd games.

Game 2 was pretty much like my other game 3 in round 1. Mulled to a single land waste hand at 6 and get wasted out of the game.
At this point I’m out of the prizes most likely, but decide to play one more.

Round 5 Tezzerator

Turn 1 I force a chalice on 1 on the draw. It’s definitely a close game I beat with goyf then add a goose then a second goose unfortunately both not at threshold. He plays ensaring bridge at 14 3 cards in hand. I have 4 in the yard on my turn and decide to swing where I stifle my own fetch and bolt for a 12 point swing thinking I wouldn’t get another chance to attack. After this I could dig for one of my other 5 bolts for the win. This would also limit him to 4 mana since he had urborg, 2x ancient tomb, chromatic lantern. Unfortunately he transmutes for bottled cloister and passes. I play along thinking maybe I’ll draw a stifle, but next turn he plays another chalice at 1 and I scoop.
So here’s the interesting part my friend pointed out I could have won this game. I could swing for 5 put him down to 9. Next turn stifle bottled trigger swing with un threshed geese bolt to get thresh for exactly 9. This seemed like such an obscure line, but should I have played it safe instead of just swinging all in and hoping to draw a bolt?

Game 2 he has chalice plus force and I just lose after trying to lead delver with force in hand thinking I would be fine.

[Vain]

I never really post here, but I wanted to share my list which deviates slightly from what seems to be the norm:

4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Delver of Secrets
3x True-Name Nemesis

4x Force of Will
4x Daze
3x Spell Snare
4x Stifle
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Gitaxian Probe
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Chain Lightning

3x Tropical Island
3x Volcanic Island
4x wasteland
2x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
2x Wooded Foothills
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Misty Rainforest

SB:
3x Submerge
2x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
2x Spell Pierce
1x Ancient Grudge
2x Electrickery
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Pithing Needle


As you can see, I've completely cut goyf and I haven't really missed it since. In my experience, goyf was always the worst creature in the deck as it usually catches a snare, plow, decay or you get screwed by a rest in peace or jacebounce.
With TNN in place of the goyf, you gain the following advantages:
+ You're less reliable on your graveyard. A resolved rest in peace or relic of progenitus is not the end of the world.
+ You don't have any spell snare targets maindeck
+ Pitchable to FoW
+ If you see that your opponent has more removal spells than you can favourably handle (for example, you see with a gitaxian probe that your opponent has 2 plows and you have only a single delver of secrets), you can choose to pitch you delvers to your FoWs and win on the back of mongoose and TNN, completely blanking your oppenents removal spells and gaining virtual card advantage.
+ Unblockable, a goyf can get blocked by an opposing TNN, goyf, mother of runes, elves or goblins all day long.
+ Less susceptible to Perish/Nature's ruin

TNN in place of goyf has the following disadvantages:
- 3 mana vs 2 mana
- Can be pyro/red elemental blasted

The fact that TNN is a bit slower than goyf hasn't really been an issue. Early game, or against combo, you can just pitch it to a force of will. Mid- to late game it will reliably 'bolt' your opponent every turn or it can save you from a resolved batterskull. 7 'shrouded' creatures is also pretty good against miracles, patriot and other decks packing a lot of removal.
Aside from that, I've replaced the rough//tumbles with Electrickerys as rough//tumble can actually kill every creature in the deck. Also, I'm a big fan of pithing needle in the side as it deals with tops, vials, planeswalkers, sneak attack, DRS, equipments, and you can occasionally screw your oppent by dropping it on the right fetchland after gitaxian probing (or you can force your opponent to crack his/her fetch when dropping Peedle).

[Bed Decks Palyer]

@ Contract Killer: Thanks for the report! I see you were a bit unlucky, hopefully it'll be better the next time. ;)

@ Vain: I like your list. It's very unconventional and has some ups and downs (e.g. I think I'll miss Goyfs in tribal matchups, but well, there are not many of them today), and if it works for you, more power to you! :)

[Serbitar]

I'd think that if you want to cut Goyfs for three Nemesis, the leftover slot should be a land.

[Chaam]

So I used to play Shardless BUG in Legacy and Junk in Modern and have gotten tired of them and will now play RUG Delver in both Modern and Legacy.

I have played vs. RUG Delver a ton but have yet to pilot the deck. Please let me know if my list seems alright.

Creatures (12)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

Spells (30)
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare

Lands (18)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

Sideboard (15)
3 Submerge
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Rough/Tumble
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Tormod's Crypt

Thoughts? I am not a huge fan of spell snare atm, I was thinking of playing 2 copies of counterspell mb since it is an answer to TNN but being 2 mana is rough. I could also go up to 4 spell pierce instead of 2 snares but that just improves my already good combo matchup and its just ok vs blade variants.

Also, thoughts on jamming a second clique in the board? It's pretty good vs blade variants by taking away their equipment after they search for it or racing a TNN in the air alongside delver while doubling as a good card vs. combo.

For those who have been playing Life from the Loam in the side, how has it been for you? I used to play it in the side in Shardless BUG vs RUG delver and it was great but I'm not so sure now that I am playing a deck with only 18 lands and plays counter magic.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Chaam, that's a good starting point. Once you'll realize what fits your style and meta, you may improve the list.

[Contract Killer]

2 Forked Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare

Sideboard (15)
3 Submerge
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Rough/Tumble
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Tormod's Crypt


Looks good pretty much just stock delver with the same 6 flex spot configuration that Taylor had success with. The mainboard is essentially 54 must spells (unless you try and jam TNN main, but that's another story) and 6 flex spots which are usually 2 more removal ranging from forked bolt to dismember and then either more counter magic or 3x probe. As for the sideboard all stock for the most part as well the only sketchy cards are crypt for more flexible grave hate like cage and sulfur elemental depending on how many D&T/Maverick you see in your meta.

[sawatarix]

counterspell is one of the most underplayed spells in canadian ******** in my opinion.
I always run 1 counterspell in the md (sometimes in the side if the metagame demands it)
i board it in against slower decks without wastelands(and there are so many slower decks than yours), once you get your delver or mongoose down you just need to keep your mana open for reactive spells and counterspell is excellent in negating our opponents plans, may it a creature, removal,planeswalker,anything.
It's rock-solid, try it out :)

[Exuberance]

So I used to play Shardless BUG in Legacy and Junk in Modern and have gotten tired of them and will now play RUG Delver in both Modern and Legacy.

I have played vs. RUG Delver a ton but have yet to pilot the deck. Please let me know if my list seems alright.

Creatures (12)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

Spells (30)
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare

Lands (18)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

Sideboard (15)
3 Submerge
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Rough/Tumble
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Tormod's Crypt

Thoughts? I am not a huge fan of spell snare atm, I was thinking of playing 2 copies of counterspell mb since it is an answer to TNN but being 2 mana is rough. I could also go up to 4 spell pierce instead of 2 snares but that just improves my already good combo matchup and its just ok vs blade variants.

Also, thoughts on jamming a second clique in the board? It's pretty good vs blade variants by taking away their equipment after they search for it or racing a TNN in the air alongside delver while doubling as a good card vs. combo.

For those who have been playing Life from the Loam in the side, how has it been for you? I used to play it in the side in Shardless BUG vs RUG delver and it was great but I'm not so sure now that I am playing a deck with only 18 lands and plays counter magic.
That main board is my last deck; since then I've cut both Snares for a third Pierce and a Chain Lightning. The Chain should probably be something else, but I like having seven removal spells, personally. Stick with your list and see what you personally do well with. Also, Grafdigger's Cage is usually better than Crypt since you can also board it vs. Elves (and maybe TES/ANT).
One Clique is probably fine; if you want a second I would cut both Crypts for a second Clique and a Cage.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

One Cage may not be enough against Elves, you reall don't have much time to dig for it. Same goes for Dredge/Reanimator. I'd love to play one Crypt becasue of random LftL/PFire, but there's no place for it, sadly.


I played RUG in our lgs today. Not really spectacular result (and report):

List:
54 RUG
2 Snare
2 Pierce
2 Fire/Ice

2 Rough
2 Submerge
1 KGrip
1 Ancestral Grudge
1 Art. Mutation
1 Flus
2 REB
2 Cage
2 Needle
1 Sulfur Emental


I played against Deathblade (Loss), Bye, Goblins (Loss) and ANT (Win). Nothing really amazing happened, except for the DBlade match which was very swingy, thrilling and full of action. Goblins would be better if only I drawn anything else than Daze, FoW, Pierce, and ANT was won although I drawn Goyfs, Goyfs, Goyfs.
I think I'll return to the DBlade match tomorrow as it was really interesting.

[GoldenCid]

2 Fire/Ice



Which was your impression about F and I? I've ever liked it! Yeah it does not kill shaman in t1, as forked bolt does, but it's so versatile...

[Bed Decks Palyer]

My impression? Well, the card felt weak. It never mattered the card is blue, instnat vs. sorcery is fine, but when there was Thalia in game, the additional :1: hurt a bit. It felt like either 1 or 3 is correct number; one to have it as a "bomb" or three to rely on its flexibility. Honestly, I met no Goyfs/Tombstalkers/KotRs and each BSK I simply destroyed, soI never needed the blue part, otherwise I'd maybe valu it differently.
Also, I'm considering Isochron Scepter main/sb. We play lots of brutal instans, as a one of, it won't clog our hand, late game bomb is safe of Decay (kind of) and it helps to seal the deal with CA/repeatable filtering.

[sawatarix]

I'm running also 2 Isochron Scepter in my UR Delver Dideboard to combat control decks without decay.
It's kinda similar to grim lavamancer which cant get plowed :D
Btw against control it can also become a jace the mind sculptur by imprinting bainstorm.



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Vain]

The only matchup I can imagine bringing isochron scepter in is miracles and even against that deck, scepter may be too slow. You need to spend 8 mana on it before you've actually made card advantage (scepter + 3 activations). On top of that, it can be countered by pretty much every counter in the format (spell pierce, spell snare, stifle).

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Yep, we know the downsides of Isochron Scepter, and the card disadvantage is quite dangerous, otoh, it's very unconventional, it may give the oppoent some headache and the versatility (and/but also the unpredictability) makes it pretty interesting. It may become a Icy Manipulator with cantrip or Grim Lavamancer that splits the dmg, it may be neverending BS, it may become instanteous Spell Pierce, etc. A buddy of mine played it few years ago, and although Decay changed a lot, I'd be still interested if this may hel pus.

[KobeBryan]

Bring this back to the DTB...

Its been performing well recently.

[poxy14]

Bring this back to the DTB...

Its been performing well recently.

+1...and now number 1 in SCG's Atlanta Open...

[Contract Killer]

Bring this back to the DTB...

Its been performing well recently.

It just had two well one first finish by Taylor Scott (SCG Nashville) and a tie for first by Stephen Mann (SCG Atlanta) a few more and we should be back on top. Let's face it even with printings of cards like Deathrite, RIP and TNN RUG is still the deck of choice for a large tournament. With probably 70/30 in our favor against any combo (except maybe High Tide) and 50/50 against everything else it's so versatile. There are so many straight blow outs with cards like wasteland and stifle mixed with cheap, but efficient counter spells.

[cheerios]

my faith in RUG has been restored slowly thanks to recent developments in SCG.

[Isre Morn]

This is freaking hilarious.

2014/03/02 - SCG Atlanta - 1st
2014/02/23 - SCG St. Louis - 2nd
2014/02/09 - SCG Nashville - 1st
2014/01/26 - SCG Baltimore - 2nd

The only results RUG is reaching in big tourneys the past weeks is staying in the finals. Almost no other placements in TOP 8/16. Could'nt believe it again, as I saw the results of Atlanta this morning.

This deck is not DTB atm because of its quantity successes, but it deserves to because of its quality.

[index]

whoop whoop, canadian on it's way back to the top!

[Bed Decks Palyer]

whoop whoop, canadian on it's way back to the top!

I think I need to Thresh my friendly lgs to prove the point! :laugh:









I hope it won't end with my usual 1:3 result.

[Exuberance]

I went 4-3 drop at the Atlanta Open. Lost a match to Patriot when I mulliganed to four in game three, rallied back by beating Elves, two UR Delver decks, and Punishing Jund, and finished my day by losing to two Merfolk decks in a row. Turns out, Merfolk is really hard to beat when they play four Caverns and four Trunes. If you don't have double Delver with a REB or Bolt, then you basically can't win.

[sawatarix]

Mr. Taylor i can't agree more on that.
Merfolk is a matchup you can't win by trying to control the game with countermagic because they use their vials and cavern.
You also can't control the board only with your 10-13 removal against 30 (!) fishies,the only route to victory is RACING,that means Delver and Tarmogoyf + hopefully a ton of blasts and instant-bolts(i'm not talking about slow forked bolts as they can be shut down by to many lords)

During GP Paris i lost also against merfolk because i kept controlish hands but with no creature or maybe 1 nimble mongoose which is not the ideal one against the blue man group.



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Mr. Taylor i can't agree more on that.
Merfolk is a matchup you can't win by trying to control the game with countermagic because they use their vials and cavern.
You also can't control the board only with your 10-13 removal against 30 (!) fishies,the only route to victory is RACING,that means Delver and Tarmogoyf + hopefully a ton of blasts and instant-bolts(i'm not talking about slow forked bolts as they can be shut down by to many lords)

During GP Paris i lost also against merfolk because i kept controlish hands but with no creature or maybe 1 nimble mongoose which is not the ideal one against the blue man group.



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

It's annoying how the can circumvent Rough.

[Contract Killer]

So what do you guys think of the list that won Atlanta? I personally think that 2 dismember and 2 gitaxian probe mainboard is a lot of life loss with no life gain. The other thing I don't really like is the 2 grims in the side just because they seem slow and counter productive with the geese. With all that being said he did win so am I just missing something here?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

So what do you guys think of the list that won Atlanta? I personally think that 2 dismember and 2 gitaxian probe mainboard is a lot of life loss with no life gain. The other thing I don't really like is the 2 grims in the side just because they seem slow and counter productive with the geese. With all that being said he did win so am I just missing something here?

Grim is the card that helps you in nightmare matchups like DnT and Folks.
Dismember, though hurtful, helps against opposing walls like Goyfs/Stalkers/Germs, both hurtful cards. You may get rid of them otherwise, but speaking esp. of... hrm... hrm... Goyfs, Stalkers and Germs, this isn't exactly easy and the time you'll lose looking for answers may result in a loss.
My opinion on GP is unchanged, but well, i won't argue with results.

What am I missing?

EDIT: What I dislike about Dismember is that it stops DRS at the too painful cost and sometimes not being powerful enough to kill KotR.

[Purgatory]

Is KotR even a factor? I haven't seen one outside Cockatrice for months. Does the Thespian's Stage deck play it?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Is KotR even a factor? I haven't seen one outside Cockatrice for months. Does the Thespian's Stage deck play it?

I listed it just for the record. I never seen one in months.

[Purgatory]

I listed it just for the record. I never seen one in months.

Sure, it's nice that we have the same anecdotes in this case :)

Last fall, I played RUG with 2 Pierce, 3 Probe and 1 Dismember in the flex, and the lifeloss wasn't that relevant in most match-ups.

[GoldenCid]

Sure, it's nice that we have the same anecdotes in this case :)

Last fall, I played RUG with 2 Pierce, 3 Probe and 1 Dismember in the flex, and the lifeloss wasn't that relevant in most match-ups.

O.o

[Exuberance]

So what do you guys think of the list that won Atlanta? I personally think that 2 dismember and 2 gitaxian probe mainboard is a lot of life loss with no life gain. The other thing I don't really like is the 2 grims in the side just because they seem slow and counter productive with the geese. With all that being said he did win so am I just missing something here?

He did say in his top 8 profile that Lavamancer should have been Rough // Tumble.

[sawatarix]

Ya would make way more sense.

I like the atlanta list a lot,reminds me on my own list during gp strassbourg in 2013.
Dismember is a great removal and we don't care about the lifeloss ,except in the mirror were it actual matters !

I'm currently tuning 2-3 Decks for the big Bazaar of Moxen Event in May and one if them is indeed RUG with 8 Burn (4 Bolt and 4 Chains !) and 2 Spell Pierces in the main.
The sideboard has 2 price of progress and 1-2 sulfuric vortex,because all decks except miracle just loose a single copy of them.
It feels like UR- Delver with better creatures and a better mathup against elves,team america,death&taxes and friends.

Check it out !





- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[carefulmug]

I'm glad to see some people are coming around to trying out the 4 bolt/4 chain configuration i suggested some ten or so pages back.

@ sawatarix: do you find the blue count to be high enough to still run the full 4 force of will? When I'd suggested 4 bolt/4 chain, I also suggested running 3 FoW/3 spell pierce, and the counterspell configuration diverted attention away from what I thought was most important--loading up on 3 for 1 red spells for reach and removal.

[Demonic_Attorney]

This deck wins yet another large scale (316 players) legacy event over this past weekend, Star City Games Open - Atlanta). Last month it also won Star City Games Open - Nashville (283 players) and went to the finals with a second place finish the month before that in January at Star City Games Open - Baltimore (402 players).

There have been a bunch of other 50 to 100 player events all over North America and Europe in 2014 in the months of January and February so far where this deck has earned respective top 8 placements in large scale legacy events. This deck is not showing any signs of slowing down and pound-for-pound has posted better results in 2014 thus far than several other decks still in the decks to beat forum. Indeed, it is trite to say that this needs to change mods.

This is conspicuously still one of the top decks in the format and is palpably one of the decks to beat, if not the deck to beat! With the greatest of respect, the mods really erred by moving it to this thread recently.

[snorlaxcom]

Why is this not in DTB and, more importantly, why was Nic Fit ever in DTB? lolol

[Demonic_Attorney]

Why is this not in DTB and, more importantly, why was Nic Fit ever in DTB? lolol

Both the former and the latter, very, very good questions indeed!

[that0neguy]

If you read how the DTB thread is calculated, it makes more sense why it was removed.

If it was strength of deck alone, RUG should never leave DTB, it's always going to have decent MU against the field.

But if you start to just go on strength of deck, there are going to be a perpetual list of DTB 40 decks long.

For example: For the number of people that play high tide or imperial painter - they are extremely strong decks capable of winning pretty much any tournament. But I don't go around planning to run up against either deck all day long, because they are expensive and are low in prevalence.

RUG had a bad run in January, and I would bet it will be back in February.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

It's about math and that doesn't lie. I wouldn't be mad at mods. We should rather win something more... :smile:

Also, I think that the fall from DTB status only helped the deck. I like that it's a bit obscure once again - although not like the first time when the Stifles started to fly all over the place back in 2007 - and I find it amusing that I'm playing an "unusual choice".

[Demonic_Attorney]

RUG had a bad run in January, and I would bet it will be back in February.

February is over, it is now March.

It had a decent January, a dominant February and just started March back on top. The results and the math in support of this deck being 'the deck to beat in the format right now is compelling!

[rlesko]

Why do people really care if its classified as "DTB" or not on one magic website?

[sawatarix]

Carefulmug:

There are 26 blue spells including force of wills themselves.
I wouldn't run a list without 4 forces just because they are excellent tempo-counter.
Otherwise the deck is really good right now,elves for example has became a risible mu



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Holly]

For those who care.. the DTB section doesnt get updated every day but once in a month. Thats probably why this deck isnt in the DTB forum.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Why do people really care if its classified as "DTB" or not on one magic website?

For fun.

@ three FoWs: I think that there's no reason to cut the fourth FoW, but in a meta that warrants eight burn, it's quite possible that the full set isn't necessary.

[sawatarix]

@Bed Decks Pal...:

Especially in a Rug Version with an overload on Burn and fewer Countermagic you need (!) 4 force of wills,otherwise you'll just die to any kind of combo or control i guess.





- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Chaam]

What are you taking out for the 4 chains?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

What I meant is that one FoW might be switched for Pierce, so that the number of counters is high, though the blue count is smaller..

[sawatarix]

This is one of 3 decks i'm planning to bring to the bazaar if moxen in may.( The other 2 decks are German ******** or Burg Delver if you will and ANT with double ad nauseam)
That's how the Deck looks like right now,just super powerful so far:

Deck: Canadian ******** by Kai Thiele

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:12
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

Spells:30
4 Brainstorm
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Ponder
2 Preordain
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Lands:18
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:15
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Destructive Revelry
1 Life from the Loam
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Price of Progress
2 Rough // Tumble
3 Submerge


The only "bad" matchup is maybe,just maybe manaless dredge coz there is no gravehate at all in the entire 75.but let's be honest: Who on earth is manaless dredge?


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Isre Morn]

This is one of 3 decks i'm planning to bring to the bazaar if moxen in may.( The other 2 decks are German ******** or Burg Delver if you will and ANT with double ad nauseam)
That's how the Deck looks like right now,just super powerful so far:

Deck: Canadian ******** by Kai Thiele

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:12
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

Spells:30
4 Brainstorm
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Ponder
2 Preordain
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Lands:18
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:15
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Destructive Revelry
1 Life from the Loam
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Price of Progress
2 Rough // Tumble
3 Submerge


The only "bad" matchup is maybe,just maybe manaless dredge coz there is no gravehate at all in the entire 75.but let's be honest: Who on earth is manaless dredge?


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

I'm OK with your Burn-Plan and PoP-Strategy, also interested in your future endresult in the BOM-Event in May. Good luck!
Personally with Chain I have my thoughts against all the R.decs.

But why Preordain instead of full Playset of Ponder? Never liked it. Would you explain your choice?
Imho a piece of Gravehate in a large Tourney is a must, at least 1 Cage. Don't forget potentail MUs like Elves and Reanimator, too. I'd cut Revoker for it.

[sawatarix]

I'll admit: I'm not a big fan of Ponder in RUG !
You'll say Ponder is a great cantrip because it lets you see up to 4 cards compared to a preordain (3 cards).
Thats true for sure,but most of the time ponder is only excellent together with a shuffle effect,otherwise you are going to draw all 3 cards from top.
Let's count the number of shuffle-effects we have in our deck: 8 fetchlands,thats it.
UWR Delver on the other side has 12 ! (8 Fetchlands+4 Stoneforge Mystics)
So i would definately run the full set of Ponder in UWR,but not in RUG.

Preordain in the other hand is perfect,you can always put unnecessary cards (like duals in the lategame) on bottom without having a shuffle effect.
During 2011 when i lived in Tokyo, RUG was the best deck in the format and i played many mirrorgames in tournaments there.
My Teammate and i decided to increase the dual-count up to 8 and reduce the fetchlands down to 6 to have more actual 'lands'.
We then realized,that ponder isn't that great anymore,so we took 4 preordains in the maindeck and we succeed.(Sometimes we played with 9 cantrips to improve the mirror)





- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[trollking21]

Preordain vs ponder
With shuffle
Ponder > preordain
There's no argument here.

Without shuffle

You want 0 of 2
Ponder > preordain (perhaps you keep because card 3 is awesome, if you have to shuffle it's a tie)

You want 1 of 2
Preordain > ponder

You want 2 of 2
Ponder > Preordain (you see card 3 and get to arrange accordingly)

It seems ponder is slightly better or even without a shuffle and without argument better with a shuffle.

To me this seems like you would max out ponder before touching preordain.

[Mr. Crane]

Delver of Secrets make ponder better. If you play dismember, fire or tarfire over forked bolt/chain, maybe split with 3 ponder 2 preordains for more sorcerys to tarmogoyf.

[GoldenCid]

1 Life from the Loam


When this card enter the scene?

And i would not understimate dredge.

GC.

[carefulmug]

Perhaps I've miscommunicated myself once more.

Playing more removal in the form of burn is, I believe, a step in the right direction. It kills elves, it kills SFM, it kills t1 Mother of Runes, it kills Merfolk, and it races TNN.

I believe this burn should be either: Fire//Ice, or, as initially suggested and corroborated by sawatarix, Chain Lightning.

My secondary assertion of moving a Force of Will to the SB and replacing it with a third Spell Pierce MB is only relevant in the 4x Chain Lightning discussion. However, this was merely a suggestion if the individual player did not find the blue count high enough to support 4x FoW, and was meant merely as suggestion, not opinion.

Again:

Don't get hung up on me suggesting cutting a Force. It wasn't my initial point, and it is not my continuing point. First and foremost, I'm trying to talk about notching up to 8x removal spells.

+++++++

On Preordain vs. Ponder: I'm pretty sure the Japanese lists that were running Preordain were playing them in place of Stifle, right? Replacing Ponder itself with Preordain does not seem to provide very many benefits to me. When less than 1/3 or your deck consists of land, and when hitting your cantrips appropriately is usually the path to assembling your manabase, seeing that 3rd card seems awfully important.

The same could be said about removal, creatures, and permission.

Additionally, I believe part of the power derived from Canadian Thresh is in utilizing 3 to 1 ratios. Nimble Mongoose and Delver of Secrets are 3 power creatures for 1 mana. Lightning Bolt (and, hence, Chain Lightning) is a 3 to 1 burn spell. Brainstorm and Ponder are 3 to 1 Cantrips (you see 3 cards) with Ponder providing an incidental 4th card if necessary. Preordain is a 2 to 1 cantrip that incidentally provides a third card. I don't believe it is powerful enough.

[sawatarix]

@Loam:it's still in there to beat Team America,Patriot and the mirror.
"But Team America has 4 shamans to negate it" you'll say.well i would agree if we play 5-6 burn.But we don't:8 burn+3Submerge is an overload for shaman.

@cantrips: the 9th cantrip list was also fine,like the stifleless builds during gp atlanta when thought scour was a card.
The first rug idea we had 3 weeks ago had 9 cantrips and 1 counterspell instead of 2 spell pierces.The Deck really wants to cantrip every turn to always find the correct answer for opposing plans.
(Trollking21's comparison between Ponder and Preordain isn't 100% correct in my oppinion by the way,sry buddy)



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Bed Decks Palyer]

The 8+ catrips build feel a bit like Storm.dec to me. You're right that we need to find the perfect answer, though. Maybe it's a way to go, I just can't imagine how would I make it into 60/75 cards with all the additional burn, cantrips and such, all the while keepijg at least one Snare and some number of usual suspects.

[Holly]

The 8+ catrips build feel a bit like Storm.dec to me. You're right that we need to find the perfect answer, though. Maybe it's a way to go, I just can't imagine how would I make it into 60/75 cards with all the additional burn, cantrips and such, all the while keepijg at least one Snare and some number of usual suspects.

Take sawatrix list from above
-1 Goyf +1 Snare if you really want to play at least one. There you have your 8 cantrips, 8 burn and 3 non force, non daze countermagics.

[Contract Killer]

The 8+ catrips build feel a bit like Storm.dec to me. You're right that we need to find the perfect answer, though. Maybe it's a way to go, I just can't imagine how would I make it into 60/75 cards with all the additional burn, cantrips and such, all the while keepijg at least one Snare and some number of usual suspects.

I definitely feel like the deck wants 8 burn, but I just don't like how little flexibility that leaves us with. With that being said after seeing both Atlanta and St. Louis lists winning with 2 gitaxian probes I almost feel like 2 - 3 gitaxian probes are mandatory (???). I mean I'll be the first to say I've flip flopped on probe more times than I can count. Probe is very powerful in our deck allowing for perfect sequencing and some serious blow outs. In addition it lets us know what "perfect answer" we need to look for. Then again I've definitely used it and it doesn't change the fact that I'm dead to cards x + y or that combo has the nuts and anything short of drawing 2 forces won't save me. It's just such a weird card while be extremely powerful sometimes leading to "oh they have one land I lead wasteland and win " to "bricked on a land and I still don't have an answer to tarmogoyf in their hand " or something like that. After plenty of those I felt like it was a crutch and adding more fuel was the answer, but after play testing with 2 just recently I remembered how broken it can make our sequencing.

Personally I'm starting to feel like the main deck should be organized with 6 removal (total), 2 gitaxian probes and 2 spare counter magic (spell pierce, spell snare, counterspell, etc). I also really like dismember right now with so many batterskul and Team America decks on the rise, but maybe that's just me. I do think though if you're dead set on the 8 burn plan that you shouldn't run probe as the other 2 slots since at that point probe slows you down more than helps you.

[Exuberance]

I usually bridge the gap with seven bolts, two pierces, and a snare (everything else core). I would never leave home these days without seven removal spells, and I may try cutting a Force from the main for the eighth bolt.

[sawatarix]

Scott,maybe you can try out my list from above before cutting force of will as it is one of the most important cards in Rug delver.

I can just repeat: The List is nuts gents ,i would only tchange the sideboard a bit,but thats it.
Pondering to bring it to BOM.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I may see something like 54 Thresh, 4 additional Burn, 1 Pierce, 1 Snare work.

You got your usual shell of 54 cards.
Four burn spells (be it Chain Lightning, Forked Bolt or Tarfire) add reach and removal. It's up to you to decide if brutal power (CL) or fleibility (FB or TF) is your choice.
One Spell Pierce as a Daze no.5 against non-creatures.
One Spell Snare as a hard counter against two-mana threats be it SFM, Goyf, IT, CB, Jitte, Confidant, Hymn, Library, SCM, BW, CRit, Thalia, RiP, Monolith, CotV, SotL, Energy Field, Piledriver, Serra Avenger, LoA, Ravager, Enchantress, Shallow Grave, YP, Cannonist, Ooze, Strix, Golgari Charm, Standstill, LftL, PoP, Defense Grid and Daze.

[Yan]

One Spell Snare as a hard counter against two-mana threats be it SFM, Goyf, IT, CB, Jitte, Confidant, Hymn, Library, SCM, BW, CRit, Thalia, RiP, Monolith, CotV, SotL, Energy Field, Piledriver, Serra Avenger, LoA, Ravager, Enchantress, Shallow Grave, YP, Cannonist, Ooze, Strix, Golgari Charm, Standstill, LftL, PoP, Defense Grid and Daze.

I see what you did there ;)

[sawatarix]

Snaring a Daze?
Always the perfect play to win a counterwar i guess :D




- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I couldn't resist the urge...

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/ae/aef05f2c5594546bece6ba05ba3be64f366b402541d27c01913e07f7910cd195.jpg

Ok, thinking of the eight burn: would you play Chain Lightning or Forked Bolt/Tarfire?

CL: more power, and there's a world of difference betwen 20 and 24 potential dmg. Can be chained to the dome/Delver.
FB: less power, can kill (up to) two X/1 dudes like Thalia and (summ sick) MoR.
TF: less power but it is instant. Feeds Goyfs, sadly also feeds the opposing gigawerebears, though...

[sawatarix]

4 Chains,otherwise the plan wouldn't make sense.
The Plan is to play a UR-Delver Strategie (if the mu allows it)
And there is a huge gap between 2 and 3 Damage !
Every single damage is needed here.
I have never tarfired or forked bolted an opponent as far as i remember.



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Contract Killer]

4 Chains,otherwise the plan wouldn't make sense.
The Plan is to play a UR-Delver Strategie (if the mu allows it)
And there is a huge gap between 2 and 3 Damage !
Every single damage is needed here.
I have never tarfired or forked bolted an opponent as far as i remember.


Chain lightning is definitely better to the dome, but I think Forked Bolt takes the cake as extra removal tied with dismember of course for other reasons. While chain lightning kills everything forked bolt does it doesn't allow for split damage between creature _____ (thalia, dark confidant, mother, unflipped delver, elves, etc) and 1 to the dome. It's definitely an interesting strategy.

[carefulmug]

Chain Lightning has the most raw power and, in an unknown meta, gets the nod for that reason.

If one's meta has lots of DnT and Elves, then Forked Bolt is superior.

If you're playing in a field without any Tarmogoyfs and without any DnT or Elves, an argument could be made for Tarfire.

Dismember probably shouldn't be played as more than a 2-of and should be buffered with other burn, counters, or cantrips dependent on playstyle and meta.

After trying the 4x Chain Lightning version I posted (w/ 4 Force) I ultimately switched to 4x Fire//Ice due to the instant speed of Fire and the versatility and cantrip of Ice + its ability to be pitched to FoW. I experienced the most success with this variation.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I play three F//I and I'm not really impressed with them. They're versartile, but very expensive esp. against Thalia.
I thought about the Pierce/Snare split. While Snare can stop lots of annoyin thing (be it SFM, Goyf, or whatever else), Pierce does quite the same while also hitting the things that are gg once resolved, esp. Liliana. You may Bolt the SFM, you may Pierce the SCM's target, you may finish the Goyf with Fire, but there's no way how to stop Terminus, Liliana or Jace with a Snare. Maybe double Pierce is a way to go.

[carefulmug]

I should mention I switched to Fire//Ice because there is a lot of Jund and Miracles in my meta, with very few DnT represented. The Fire//Ice is good against Miracles by tapping down angels, tapping down white sources to prevent Termini and Entreats, and circumnavigating CB itself. It's also a great Goyf tap against Jund and is typically enough to kill a Liliana. Both of these decks also operate on a high mana curve, providing incentive to play Ice's ability on opponent's land.

Ultimately, i believe the last 6 slots are dependent on not only meta, but, perhaps moreso, play style.

[Purgatory]

Upped my Pierce count to 3, not sure what to do with my last slot. Looking at Forked Bolt, Dismember and Fire/Ice.

[rlesko]

Talk of 8 burn thresh has really got me tempted. makes our midrange match up much better and still not a walk in the park for combo at all (with stifles, dazes, and forces) + more hate to bring in post board.

[sawatarix]

Yep,the general idea behind that was to improve the even/slightly worse matchups while still slaying the good ones.
I recommend to increase the countermagic/disruption/whatever up to 6 or even 7 because there are now a ton of cards you want to side out against combo or control.




- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Purgatory]

I tried running a 7-bolt list back when Maverick was all the rage, and it certainly helped in the match-up to the extent that I killed their mana dorks left and right, but still lost to a turn 4 or so KotR.

If I were to cut counterspells (Spell Snare that is) for more burn, I'd primarily go with Forked Bolt for flexibility, and also because the only thing I can come up with that Chain kills but Forked Bolt doesn't is Painter's Servant, and I have to regard that as a fringe deck. There's also the, rather rare but very awkward, situation where you've got a Delver on your side and can't cast Chain because the opponent has two Rs untapped.

I understand that there's a huge line between two and three damage when gunning for your opponent directly, but I guess I have a different perspective on Thresh then. I don't want to play a deck of linear spells that's included to do one and only one thing. Our countersuit is versatile and flexible to answer a long list of possible threats in the format, Lightning Bolt is an excellent flexible cheap and fast spell, Stifle is one of those cards that has a million different uses in Legacy, and so on. The only linnear cards in the deck are the creatures, which are there to swing for the fences.

To me, the thing that makes Thresh so elegant in my book is the fact that there are so many tiny interactions possible with the deck, each gaining you incremental value and each contributes to the conclusion that Thresh is greater than the sum of its parts. Chain Lightning does none of these things. It's inflexible and sometimes awkward to use.

[Grizzly_Bear]

I tried running a 7-bolt list back when Maverick was all the rage, and it certainly helped in the match-up to the extent that I killed their mana dorks left and right, but still lost to a turn 4 or so KotR.

If I were to cut counterspells (Spell Snare that is) for more burn, I'd primarily go with Forked Bolt for flexibility, and also because the only thing I can come up with that Chain kills but Forked Bolt doesn't is Painter's Servant, and I have to regard that as a fringe deck. There's also the, rather rare but very awkward, situation where you've got a Delver on your side and can't cast Chain because the opponent has two Rs untapped.

I understand that there's a huge line between two and three damage when gunning for your opponent directly, but I guess I have a different perspective on Thresh then. I don't want to play a deck of linear spells that's included to do one and only one thing. Our countersuit is versatile and flexible to answer a long list of possible threats in the format, Lightning Bolt is an excellent flexible cheap and fast spell, Stifle is one of those cards that has a million different uses in Legacy, and so on. The only linnear cards in the deck are the creatures, which are there to swing for the fences.

To me, the thing that makes Thresh so elegant in my book is the fact that there are so many tiny interactions possible with the deck, each gaining you incremental value and each contributes to the conclusion that Thresh is greater than the sum of its parts. Chain Lightning does none of these things. It's inflexible and sometimes awkward to use.

Hear hear!
If you want to play burn, play burn. Burn is, after all, the better burn-deck.
The word "burn" just sounds weird now...

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Another creature that Forked Bolt can't kill is Serra Avenger. Still, I find FB better than CL, unless I'd move to the eight-burn suite. Which I won't, as there's lots of combo in our lgs, and 2/2 Pierce/Snare serves me better.

[Exuberance]

Maybe I'm just so drawn to eight bolts because I used to play UR Delver and attacking with Goblin Guide is still something I hold dear in my heart. Fuck, now I wanna cut Goose and Stifle and play UR with a Goyf splash. What's wrong with me? I should just go back to UR for a weekend and see what happens. I'll probably miss Big Green Dudes and Fuck Your Mana too much. Price of Progress tho. Argh.

[Purgatory]

Maybe I'm just so drawn to eight bolts because I used to play UR Delver and attacking with Goblin Guide is still something I hold dear in my heart. Fuck, now I wanna cut Goose and Stifle and play UR with a Goyf splash. What's wrong with me? I should just go back to UR for a weekend and see what happens. I'll probably miss Big Green Dudes and Fuck Your Mana too much. Price of Progress tho. Argh.

I'm not saying that it's definitely wrong to play 8 Bolts RUG, what I'm saying is that it's not for me.

I live in Sweden, and Sweden is combo-tastic everywhere, so I'm partial to cutting back on Forked Bolts and upping coutnerspells. Actually, I think that playing only 2 Spell Pierce might be wrong just about everywhere, because Spell Pierce is a really great card and RUG is one of the best shells to make use of it.

Also, I too suffer from deck-ADD, I keep jumping back and forth between RUG and BUG.

[Exuberance]

It's definitely all about building for the meta. Those six flex slots are beautiful. Seems like not enough, but it's all you need.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I was playing Canadian Thresh today with a 54 RUG, 4 Fire//Ice, 1/1 Pierce/Snare build.

SB:
Qty Name
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Artifact Mutation
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sulfur Elemental


Nothing spectacular happened and I'm lazy to write a full report about the whole tournament.
R1 I met Igor with Merfolks. I won g1 thanks to double Delver, but TNN was my Nemesis in g2+3. Seriously, it's that good with Cavern on Fish and that 1U bad Clone...
R2 I played against Martin who's got ANT (and hoodoo when playing with me). I won despite having suboptimal decklist (at least against combo), although g1 was lost, of course. It was a bit helpful that Martin's got nowhere near the amount of Martin's experiences with ANT.
R3 I lost to Tom piloting aDRS.dec with some three or four colours. G1 he was unable to flip four Delvers for about six turns, and My Mongoose held the ground while I waited until (and if when only just) Bob kills him. He stabilized on three life thx to DRS and then slowly flipped the Delvers one after another. The other games were uneventful.
The R4 match was against Martin on ANT, and Slosh completley outclassed and soundly defeated me. There's nothing like a nice beating from a friend.
Result: 1-3

Fire//Ice was underwhelming. I nearly never liked it and the fact that it can be pitched was relevant what... once? It's too slow, too expensive. Otoh, I met few Goyfs and no DnT, where the split dmg could be useful. Otoh, FB does the same and costs one less, moreover it feeds Goyf.
I dislike the 1/1 SPierce/Snare split. The deck is too dead to combo. Imao the very best flex slots for a blind meta are 2/2/2 FB/SS/SP.
Also, I kinda suck at sbing. But then again, I think that e.g. Needle is pretty necessary, one can beat Port/Vial/Lili much easier with them at ready.

At least I sold some 260 Euro worthy of cards and got a beer and lemonade with an old friend. Not bad.

[carefulmug]

@ Bed Decks

I appreciate your continued experimentation with Fire//Ice, but it works best in a Delver/Jund/Miracles meta. As you have suggested, your meta seems ill fated for such a card. I believe your suggested flex spot combination (2 forked bolt, 2 spell pierce, 2 spell snare) is closer to ideal.

As far as the 1/1 spell pierce/spell snare split, I believe spell pierce should be at least a 2-of before spell snare is considered. Spell Pierce is more flexible, particularly against the storm matchup.

I think the Pithing Needle may be empty space in your sideboard. -2 needle +1 flusterstorm (storm), +1 pyroblast (TNN)?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

@ Bed Decks

I appreciate your continued experimentation with Fire//Ice, but it works best in a Delver/Jund/Miracles meta. As you have suggested, your meta seems ill fated for such a card. I believe your suggested flex spot combination (2 forked bolt, 2 spell pierce, 2 spell snare) is closer to ideal.

As far as the 1/1 spell pierce/spell snare split, I believe spell pierce should be at least a 2-of before spell snare is considered. Spell Pierce is more flexible, particularly against the storm matchup.

I think the Pithing Needle may be empty space in your sideboard. -2 needle +1 flusterstorm (storm), +1 pyroblast (TNN)?

Yes, I'm goign to use the 2/2/2 FB/SP/SS split. SPierce is also veeery god aganst Liliana, while Snare... not so much.
I'm not sure of Needle. Every time I win thanks to it, I have a feeling like none other card would help me in that situation, like stopping Liliana, Port, Vial, MoR or Top. (And sometimes EE.)
Btw, we should really find a solution against Cavern(Fish)->TNN. I mean really, and asap. I know all the arguments about how it takes three mana, etc. , but trust me, Merfolk have better manabase then RUG and they can't be Stifled out of lands, only Wasted. And guess what, we play only four Wastes, while they have some ten Islands. All that they need is to sit on two basics, casually vial a newt here and there, and then play Cavern, TNN, gg.

[BlueP.]

Yes, I'm goign to use the 2/2/2 FB/SP/SS split. SPierce is also veeery god aganst Liliana, while Snare... not so much.
I'm not sure of Needle. Every time I win thanks to it, I have a feeling like none other card would help me in that situation, like stopping Liliana, Port, Vial, MoR or Top. (And sometimes EE.)
Btw, we should really find a solution against Cavern(Fish)->TNN. I mean really, and asap. I know all the arguments about how it takes three mana, etc. , but trust me, Merfolk have better manabase then RUG and they can't be Stifled out of lands, only Wasted. And guess what, we play only four Wastes, while they have some ten Islands. All that they need is to sit on two basics, casually vial a newt here and there, and then play Cavern, TNN, gg.

I played against a similar merfolk build multiple times at my store, with 4 TNN, 4 Phantasmal Images, 2 Cavern and Vials. MU is a total Nightmare, it feels like playing Merfolks this way is a no-brainer. Yet I managed to improve the mu a little via inclusion of 2 Grim Lavamancer's in my board. If one sticks and do its job, only TNN is a problem and with no Lords it's actually possible to race this... card... Still I don't think the mu could become any better, at least I have no idea how (I don't want to pack 18 burn spells and die to all the other decks). IMO the Merfolk Build with the full set of TNN and Images is the most relevant example of how dumb TNN is. Transforming a game between two fair decks into an uninteractive one.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I played against a similar merfolk build multiple times at my store, with 4 TNN, 4 Phantasmal Images, 2 Cavern and Vials. MU is a total Nightmare, it feels like playing Merfolks this way is a no-brainer. Yet I managed to improve the mu a little via inclusion of 2 Grim Lavamancer's in my board. If one sticks and do its job, only TNN is a problem and with no Lords it's actually possible to race this... card... Still I don't think the mu could become any better, at least I have no idea how (I don't want to pack 18 burn spells and die to all the other decks). IMO the Merfolk Build with the full set of TNN and Images is the most relevant example of how dumb TNN is. Transforming a game between two fair decks into an uninteractive one.

I'm afraid you're right. Seems like I may stop caring about this mu.

[Contract Killer]

So currently I'm looking at running this for an upcoming tournament:
54 + 4chain, 2 spell pierce
SB
3 submerge
2 rough
3 pyroblast
2 price of progress
flusterstorm
ancient grudge
vendilion clique
sulfur elemental
grafdigger's cage

Not sure how much I like the 8 bolt plan, but so far in testing it seems good. Another thing what should I side in price against aside the obvious stoneblade, shardless and lands matchups? I kind of want to put it in against the tempo mirrors. When we're on the draw we have so many bad cards in tempo mirrors since we want to side out forces and dazes and stifle isn't particularly amazing either.

[HammafistRoob]

Looking through the primer of this deck is so confusing and misleading. For example, it says that the deck was first seen in 2007, with Tarmogoyfs in it. Threshold was a thing long before Goyf was even printed, so I'm completely lost on where that information came from.

Anyways, why are people not playing 4 Spell Pierce? And is 4 Goyf still the right number? I would think yes but I'm curious as to what others think.

[Contract Killer]

Looking through the primer of this deck is so confusing and misleading. For example, it says that the deck was first seen in 2007, with Tarmogoyfs in it. Threshold was a thing long before Goyf was even printed, so I'm completely lost on where that information came from.

Anyways, why are people not playing 4 Spell Pierce? And is 4 Goyf still the right number? I would think yes but I'm curious as to what others think.

4 spell pierce is just a meta game call. The 6 flex spots no one has really come to a consensus as to what should be in those spots. There's been everything from spell pierce to dismember to forked bolt to gitaxian probe and the list goes on. The point is 4 spell pierce may be right against combo (and some midrange), but sucks against D&T, Fish, Goblins and Elves. Now more burn centric removal forked bolt, tarfire and chain lightning are great in the 4 matchups I just stated. Four goyfs is still pretty standard he's kind of the worst creature in the deck so some cut one for a sylvan library which is great against combo and midrange/control like miracles. The only reason why goyf is bad is because he's two mana and has no type of evasion such as shroud and flying.

As for the origins all I really know is it got it's name "Canadian Threshold" from the original creator, or so I've been told.

[Akinos]

Concerning the primer, is someone is working to write a new one? The actually primer is really out of date...

[HammafistRoob]

4 spell pierce is just a meta game call. The 6 flex spots no one has really come to a consensus as to what should be in those spots. There's been everything from spell pierce to dismember to forked bolt to gitaxian probe and the list goes on. The point is 4 spell pierce may be right against combo (and some midrange), but sucks against D&T, Fish, Goblins and Elves. Now more burn centric removal forked bolt, tarfire and chain lightning are great in the 4 matchups I just stated. Four goyfs is still pretty standard he's kind of the worst creature in the deck so some cut one for a sylvan library which is great against combo and midrange/control like miracles. The only reason why goyf is bad is because he's two mana and has no type of evasion such as shroud and flying.

As for the origins all I really know is it got it's name "Canadian Threshold" from the original creator, or so I've been told.

Pierce isn't actually that bad against Elves and D&T, but I agree that extra Burn would be more profitable in those matchups. What's everyone's opinion on going to 3 Stifle and 3 Daze? I generally wouldn't want to see more than one a game and they are so bad once the opponent has set up their mana base.

I'm on the Forked Bolt train myself, it's so much better against Elves and D&T than Chain Lightning. I also never want to have a situation arise where I have my Delver die to my own card, yuck.

And yes, Ugr Thresh was originally designed by David Kaplan, from Canada. He still plays magic and he was actually at Pro Tour Theros where he did quite well. I dunno if he plays Legacy anymore though.

[Purgatory]

Speaking of the primer, I have a two-parter that I've written for a Swedish website that was recieved very well. I could quite easily translate it, but I'm not sure if I have the name recognition to post it as a primer here.

[HammafistRoob]

Just send a PM to Nihil Credo or Zilla and ask them. I'm sure they're well aware of how old this thread is.

[Akinos]

What's everyone's opinion on going to 3 Stifle and 3 Daze? I generally wouldn't want to see more than one a game and they are so bad once the opponent has set up their mana base.

I think it's a meta call. This configuration will work better in a metagame where there will be several decks working well through your mana denial strategy (like D&T, Elfball, OmniTell, etc...) because it save you 2 slots to play more relevants cards.
Typically, against three-colored midrange decks that play a mana base composed of lot of fetchs / duals, it will be better to keep your 4 Daze / 4 Stifle to support your basic strategy: Keep the game in early by forcing your opponent to play with 2/3 lands max and to keep your cheap counterspells efficients as long as possible.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Speaking of primer and such: I'd love if there'd be some history lesson on both UGr Thresh (non-Waste, Fledgling Dragon version) and the UG(r) Canadian Thresh version (Stifle, Waste). I find it really amusing that for a deck that's here about a decade, one can't tell a lots of things for sure. It's like if the history was deliberately obscured *tinfoilhaton* :laugh:

[Purgatory]

Speaking of primer and such: I'd love if there'd be some history lesson on both UGr Thresh (non-Waste, Fledgling Dragon version) and the UG(r) Canadian Thresh version (Stifle, Waste). I find it really amusing that for a deck that's here about a decade, one can't tell a lots of things for sure. It's like if the history was deliberately obscured *tinfoilhaton* :laugh:

My primer dates the deck's roots back to 2004-2005 vintage :)

[Bed Decks Palyer]

My primer dates the deck's roots back to 2004-2005 vintage :)

I hope that it also touches the Extended roots!
Maybe you should really contact the mods.

[GoldenCid]

Went to a GP side event with RUG. The first time i run the deck in a tournament. Went 3-2. Not bad not good. At first i felt that the deck was difficult to pilot. I started with mirror match and the quantity of goyf each player controled defined the winner. Game 1 he got more goyfs, me the second and he the third.
Lost to elves and the got a Fuc''¿'0 bye....

Won to goblins (White and black splash) and to UWR delver.

Always won at least 1 match in each round!!!

My decklist was:

54 RUG
2 chian lightning (loved)
1 forked
1 Fire ice (loved)
2 Pierce

SB:

3 submerge
2 Cage
2 REB
1 surgical (really needed?)
2 rough (loved)
2 flusterstorm
1 Pithing needle
2 Destructive revelry

Thoughts?

GC

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I started with mirror match and the quantity of goyf each player controled defined the winner. Game 1 he got more goyfs, me the second and he the third.

My decklist was:

54 RUG
no Snare

Thoughts?

GC

One Spell Snare main? I'm curious about the Chain Lightning. How exactly you used it? As reach, as removal, in both roles? Because I definitely can see a pros of 54 RUG, 2/1 SP/SS, 2/1 FB/F-I.
2 SPierce: Good against Swords, Liliana, JTMS, Terminus, Top, CB, Thoughtseize and anything in combo.
1 Spell Snare: "I personally like spell snare against 2 cc spells, but it really isn't good against spells that aren't 2 cc." One SS to have the edge over opposing Goyfs.
2 Forked Bolt: To have your turn1 answer for DRS.
1 Fire//Ice: Flexible yet expensive spell. So just a single one, it's not like you want it in your opening hand. But lately it may help, esp. when it taps some big bad wall like KotR, Stalker, Goyf, Germ, SCooze, Wurmcoil, Kozilek or Autochton Wurm.

[Exuberance]

I still haven't worked up the nerve to play Fire // Ice in a tournament setting yet. I guess I'm just worried that it's going to be super underwhelming, and I should have played something I've played before? I'll probably play one in Charlotte. Hopefully I still have the DCI foil one. Or else I'll need to buy an original. Hmm.

[GoldenCid]

One Spell Snare main? I'm curious about the Chain Lightning. How exactly you used it? As reach, as removal, in both roles? Because I definitely can see a pros of 54 RUG, 2/1 SP/SS, 2/1 FB/F-I.
2 SPierce: Good against Swords, Liliana, JTMS, Terminus, Top, CB, Thoughtseize and anything in combo.
1 Spell Snare: "I personally like spell snare against 2 cc spells, but it really isn't good against spells that aren't 2 cc." One SS to have the edge over opposing Goyfs.
2 Forked Bolt: To have your turn1 answer for DRS.
1 Fire//Ice: Flexible yet expensive spell. So just a single one, it's not like you want it in your opening hand. But lately it may help, esp. when it taps some big bad wall like KotR, Stalker, Goyf, Germ, SCooze, Wurmcoil, Kozilek or Autochton Wurm.

Yap, no snares...i was testing with 1 MD and it was a marginal advantage. You know it conters, goyfs, mystic, snapy and so on, but i wanted a deck that could solve theats that got rid from SS. That's why i included chain lightning. I used it as removal spells (or killing walkers spell) more than a finisher and i was great feeding my goyf also. With six 3 damage spells main, i felt free to run 1 forked and 1 fire ice and i felt confortalbe, however you could cut the f//I if you dont like it.

The building of side was hard to me: i considered sulfur elemental, clique and loam but they finally kept out. Was it right?

I dunno...

cheers,

GC.

[cheerios]

What's the recommended sb plan vs uwr delver or tnn decks in general? Do we really have to board in 3 rebs? I never liked the rebs vs them but it felt neccessary against tnn.

Cheers

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

[Bed Decks Palyer]

What's the recommended sb plan vs uwr delver or tnn decks in general? Do we really have to board in 3 rebs? I never liked the rebs vs them but it felt neccessary against tnn.

Cheers

Depends what that TNN.dec look like. 4 TNNs, 4 Phantasmal Images, 4 Vials, 2-3 Caverns? Good luck with REBs... :frown:

[cheerios]

Depends what that TNN.dec look like. 4 TNNs, 4 Phantasmal Images, 4 Vials, 2-3 Caverns? Good luck with REBs... :frown:

I was pertaining mostly to tnn-blade decks. But yeah, uncounterable tnns would spell doom for us. If merfolk becomes a thing again, it might be time to bring in a single llawan or engineered explosives.

Cheers



Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I was pertaining mostly to tnn-blade decks. But yeah, uncounterable tnns would spell doom for us. If merfolk becomes a thing again, it might be time to bring in a single llawan or engineered explosives.

Cheers


TNN-Blade decks are easier than Merfolk. You may counter their TNNs (or better said: all critters), and they tend to have worse manabase than Folks. Also, they don't pack Clones.
Basically it's about:

- StifleWaste so that they can't play spells
- Blast the TNN
- Daze/FoW/w-e the spels they get to play once they reach 2+ mana
- Grudge/Mutate the equipment so that they're left with Squires.
- fly over the TNNs that get through the counterwall
- burn FTW

Sadly, this ain't completely easy.

[cheerios]

TNN-Blade decks are easier than Merfolk. You may counter their TNNs (or better said: all critters), and they tend to have worse manabase than Folks. Also, they don't pack Clones.
Basically it's about:

- StifleWaste so that they can't play spells
- Blast the TNN
- Daze/FoW/w-e the spels they get to play once they reach 2+ mana
- Grudge/Mutate the equipment so that they're left with Squires.
- fly over the TNNs that get through the counterwall
- burn FTW

Sadly, this ain't completely easy.

I just find the matchup to be more difficult on the draw.

Cheers

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

[Purgatory]

Tinkering with my sideboard for BoM 9 (i.e. a very open metagame, with plenty of BUG and Miracles expected). I play the Thresh 54 list, with 3 Pierce, 2 Snare and 1 open slot (F/I, Forked or Dismember, undecided). Here's where I'm at:

1 TNN
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Flusterstorm
2 Submerge
3 Pyroblast
2 Rough // Tumble
1 Ancient Grudge
1 artifact removal (Destructive Revelry or Artifact Mutation or maybe a second Grudge)
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage


I'd really like to get a third Submerge in there somewhere, but I don't know what to cut. Either of the creatures or the second artifact removal are probably the ones closest to the cut, but Sulfur Elemental is such a blowout in the DnT match-up, TNN feels really good vs. other fair decks. I don't know what to cut.

Help please.

[Akinos]

Tinkering with my sideboard for BoM 9 (i.e. a very open metagame, with plenty of BUG and Miracles expected). I play the Thresh 54 list, with 3 Pierce, 2 Snare and 1 open slot (F/I, Forked or Dismember, undecided). Here's where I'm at:

1 TNN
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Flusterstorm
2 Submerge
3 Pyroblast
2 Rough // Tumble
1 Ancient Grudge
1 artifact removal (Destructive Revelry or Artifact Mutation or maybe a second Grudge)
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage


I'd really like to get a third Submerge in there somewhere, but I don't know what to cut. Either of the creatures or the second artifact removal are probably the ones closest to the cut, but Sulfur Elemental is such a blowout in the DnT match-up, TNN feels really good vs. other fair decks. I don't know what to cut.

Help please.

You want to beat Miracle & BUG?

Miracle is very hard MU. If you want to beat them, use Pithing Needle to stop their Sensei's Divining Top, use Sulfuric Vortex to kill them and save your Stifle, your Pierce and your FoW to protect it at any cost. TNN is not the best threat to beat them because they have lot of means to deal with (Engineered Explosives, REB, Terminus, Supreme Verdict...).

It will be a lot of BUG Delver, that's why you can't go out with less than 3 Submerge. Their Deathrite musn't untap.

I don't go to BoM 9 but if i went, I would take these 75:

54 RUG, 2 Snare (to stop Counterbalance, Tarmo, Stoneforge, Tourach, etc...), 2 Pierce, 1 Dismember and 1 Forked Bolt.

3 Submerge
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Rough // Tumble

My 2 cents...

[Purgatory]

I was told to post the primer in a new thread, so here it is:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27776-Deck-Canadian-Threshold-(aka-RUG-Delver-Tempo-Thresh)


Tell me what you guys think! It's not quite complete yet, but it's a start!

[cartothemax]

That's a great start if you ask me.

I'm not sure what your plans are for the sideboarding information, but this post should be helpful I would think. wcm made an all inclusive guide to sideboarding for RUG.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13715-Deck-Canadian-Thresh-(a-k-a-RUG-Tempo-Tempo-Thresh)&p=719056&viewfull=1#post719056

It helped catch me up with what is what for the RUG sideboard even though it is a little dated now.

Thanks for putting the time in to update the primer.

[Purgatory]

That's a great start if you ask me.

I'm not sure what your plans are for the sideboarding information, but this post should be helpful I would think. wcm made an all inclusive guide to sideboarding for RUG.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13715-Deck-Canadian-Thresh-(a-k-a-RUG-Tempo-Tempo-Thresh)&p=719056&viewfull=1#post719056

It helped catch me up with what is what for the RUG sideboard even though it is a little dated now.

Thanks for putting the time in to update the primer.

Thanks, I'll definitely use some of that.

I guess the primer could do with a proof-reading as well, if someone else, like me, has too much time on their hands :)

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Thanks, I'll definitely use some of that.

I guess the primer could do with a proof-reading as well, if someone else, like me, has too much time on their hands :)

That wcm8š post is brilliant, it's one of my favourite Thresh reading.
Glad to see the new primer. I'll take a closer look on evening!

[sawatarix]

The new primer is well written and flashbacks all my experiences with the deck since i sleeved it the first time i tokio before innistrad.
Thank you alot.
While Innistrad was a great set and era for RUG in general,Return of Ravnica and the new comanderset almost dismemered the whole deck in pieces - the specific cards are mentioned in the primer as well.

Because of this i started to push the burn-path with pop in the sideboard to actually "race" tnn decks which is comically easy.
I also changed my playstyle a bit:
Before return to ravnica when RUG was the best deck in the entire format by far i played very controlish with fewer threads - usually 10-11:
4 Delver
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf

Now i play the same archetype like a gruul-aggrodeck.



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Purgatory]

The new primer is well written and flashbacks all my experiences with the deck since i sleeved it the first time i tokio before innistrad.
Thank you alot.
While Innistrad was a great set and era for RUG in general,Return of Ravnica and the new comanderset almost dismemered the whole deck in pieces - the specific cards are mentioned in the primer as well.

Because of this i started to push the burn-path with pop in the sideboard to actually "race" tnn decks which is comically easy.
I also changed my playstyle a bit:
Before return to ravnica when RUG was the best deck in the entire format by far i played very controlish with fewer threads - usually 10-11:
4 Delver
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf

Now i play the same archetype like a gruul-aggrodeck.



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -


Thanks for the feedback! I actually think the primer is a lot worse than my Swedish originals, but those were written more from a personal perspective, and I don't think that would go down well here. Instead, I aimed to make the article somewhat subjective.

I have begun work on the sideboard and match-up analyses, but I could surely use some help with the latter. I'll see if I can get those up by tomorrow.

[Akinos]

Now i play the same archetype like a gruul-aggrodeck.

What your list looks like?

[Purgatory]

I have updated the primer with a first step towards a sideboard guide. I'll continue working on it and update it as I go along, but feel free to comment on the formatting etc. of how I've chosen to write it.

Link to the post: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27776-Deck-Canadian-Threshold-(aka-RUG-Delver-Tempo-Thresh)&p=800017#post800017


I also recommend that we move further discussions to the new thread, as this thread will get closed shortly, if I understood Nihil Credo correctly.