[Deck] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

[Volrath]

I played both main, and liked disrupt much better.

But, it is a meta call though.

[undone]

Q: Which fetches should we run and why. I can see several interesting arguements

1) 4 wooded foothills
2 UG fetches

This setup allows us to more frequently bluff our deck, the RG fetches bluff a non blue mana base something similar to say aggro loam or R/X goblins, the UG fetches not detailing which thresh deck we are.

2) 4 UG fetch
2 UB fetch

This setup allows us to bluff which type of thresh we are very consistentaly putting the fear of every thresh card in the format into the opponent.

3) 1 UG fetch
1 UR Fetch
2 UB fetch
1 UW fetch
1 RG fetch

This setup gives us the most mechanical protection from pithing needle and extirpate however it reduces our bluff chances.

Its possible im making too much of this but its also possible that you will catch someone unaware with a stifle or a spell snare or a daze even for the first manabase.

Granted you may not have needed the boost but players play differantly if they think you have a differant deck. Its a small edge but canadian thresh makes a living on small edges taken here and there.

[Cenarius]

I'm absolutely positive that Force Spike is better in any given metagame than Disrupt.

I prefer a build that plays 4 Wooded Foothills and 4 Polluted Delta. It gives the option to put Needle on Flooded Strand, which probably will never occur and gives me the option to bluff.
The misty Rainforest will be too expensive for me to actually start playing them, immediately. The effect is only small in comparison to its costs.

[johanessen]

If I were playing canadian with new set this would be my mana base:

2 Misty Rainforest (UG)
2 Unstable Geyser (UR)
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

But is also good:

1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Unstabe Geyser
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland


4 Wooded are necessary for the surprise of 1st turn stifle. Other fetches are to get threshold faster and fix mana better, all four can search all our duals. If we play one of each we are less vulnerable to extirpate, pithing needle, etc.
If we run in a blood-moon heavy meta, That would be Ok:

4 Misty Rainforest
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
1 Island
2 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

But I personally don't support that mana base.

Given a hand the only lands you have are Forest (and take wasteland if ya want) and you're fucked.

[firstshot]

Only playing 3 tropical & volcanics seems reallllllllll greedy. I've had multiple games where I've gone through 3 of those lands(waste, sinkhole, etc) and had to find the 4th.

If you really want the surprise factor play 4 wooded foothills. Even though if someone played a wooded foothills and didn't crack it immediately to play a guy I'd be very suspicious of them.

Ii you really want to be safe play
4 Ufetch
1 RGfetch
and a 2nd fetch of your choice
8 duals
4 wastelands

[Waikiki]

Yeah or he isn't very good and kept a aggro deck hand with no T1 drop.

[johanessen]

I've had multiple gamer

This.
I was talking in the high level tournament perspective. Being able to get threshold faster or fix mana better can be games in some matches. If game goes to the long range probably we're loosing

[Cenarius]

I also play 6 duals and 8 fetch. It just helps Brainstorm, Ponder (+Threshold) so much.
I think it's just personally. I want to "risk" getting blown out for the advantages of having 8 fetch.

[undone]

Cenarius I also play 6 duals and 8 fetch. It just helps Brainstorm, Ponder (+Threshold) so much.
I think it's just personally. I want to "risk" getting blown out for the advantages of having 8 fetch.
You can run 12 fetches pre enemy fetches. This is nothing new. I dont see the point as you actualy just lose the mirror alot because they waste/stifle you out of the game. I dont think 6 lands is acceptable because you WILL get blownout at least once, and the amout of times it makes the differance between winning and loseing will be far in favor of not getting blown out by waste/stifle. Example take 4/2/1/1 fetches to a torny and count how many times the 1 UG and 1 UR fetch being a dual would be better vs how many games you simply lost because of stifle/waste.

[kabal]

... Example take 4/2/1/1 fetches to a torny and count how many times the 1 UG and 1 UR fetch being a dual would be better vs how many games you simply lost because of waste.

I'm confused on why having more fetches is going to make you lose to Wasteland?

Anyhow, instead go for a 7/7 configuration. 4 Trops, 3 Volcs and 7 fetches. At the end of the day, you need the Trops to win.

[nrabbit]

I'm confused on why having more fetches is going to make you lose to Wasteland?

Anyhow, instead go for a 7/7 configuration. 4 Trops, 3 Volcs and 7 fetches. At the end of the day, you need the Trops to win.


Because you have to cut 1 Volcanic and 1 Trop to accomodate the UG and UR fetches. Therefore it takes only 3 Waste effects to cut you off of a color as opposed to 4.

[Cenarius]

Think I got wasted out once in all my games I played Tempo Threshold and even then won the game.
Another thing: I played mirror yesterday and never got wasted out neither did my opponent. 6 Duals is enough, trust me. I play the configuration from the beginning and it works perfectly for me.
Brainstorm becomes so much better with fetch, same with ponder if you just want 1 broken card from the three and shuffle after with fetch. I think you guys just can't comprehend :D.

I have no clue why people are so scared of getting wasted out. You can always stifle an effect, can't you?

[katakis]

As soon as I get hold of some UG fetchlands I'm going to try this:

4 Wooded foothills
2 UG Fetch
4 Volcanic
3 Tropical
1 Forest
4 Wasteland

While the single forest increases the count of non-U lands up to 5, a basic forest is soooo good in ld heavy meta.
I already tried similar configurations and was quite satisfied. However, with the new UG fetchies this manabase will be really smooth. The forest will lead to slightly more frequent mulligangs, but the ability to fetch a basic when facing heavy ld outweighs this, imho. Versus most decks packing ld it's top priority to have a safe mana source to play your threats. That's why I would include a forest instead of an island.

[Jade]

Isn't fetching an Island better than fetching a Forest here? I mean we could fetch the Island early and keep on playing Stifles/Bs/Ponders/Spell Snare/Daze and go for the Tropicals as soon as we're ready for Goyf or Goose.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

The problem is, mostly one has to play out their lands in the order they draw them, with the exception of the lands you draw in your starting grip. So you won't always be able to hold back a Tropical even if you suspect some LD from yr opponent. Hence access to a basic forest = good.

[Henrik]

Me and a friend just discussed the never-ending question of the 3-4 flexible slots in this deck, and we got intrigued by Cryptic Command. I attempt to start trying 2 of them in the bounce-slots to start with, perhaps going down to one if the mana-investment seems to heavy.

I ask you now, have this been discussed before, or does any of you have testing experience with the card? Has it been tried by Goobafish?

[Wargoos]

I ask you now, have this been discussed before, or does any of you have testing experience with the card? Has it been tried by Goobafish?

Yeah, goobafish tried it (he says that some pages back) and he disliked them.
Just look for his statement some pages back.

[undone]

Think I got wasted out once in all my games I played Tempo Threshold and even then won the game.
Another thing: I played mirror yesterday and never got wasted out neither did my opponent. 6 Duals is enough, trust me. I play the configuration from the beginning and it works perfectly for me.
Brainstorm becomes so much better with fetch, same with ponder if you just want 1 broken card from the three and shuffle after with fetch. I think you guys just can't comprehend :D.

I have no clue why people are so scared of getting wasted out. You can always stifle an effect, can't you?

Yes but which is a better answer to wasteland. Stifle or another land. IMO another land> stifle because stifle has tons of targets. In the end actual lands give you more outs to wasteland, and give you a better chance of actualy CASTING your two 3drops.

The very worst I could see doing is 7/7 and I still dont like it, you want more lands.

[Bahamuth]

Please don't add basics to the list people. They suck. You never want to fetch out 2 basics because you will be cut off a colour. If you fetch 1 basic, you'll still be Wasteable. Drawing into any of the basics is almost always going to suck.

Cryptic Command costs 4 mana. That's completely unplayable.

I play 8 fetch 6 duals too. Unless you're not in a completely Stifle-infested meta, I'm convinced it's better. Not only does it thresh Mongeese and shuffle Brainstorms and Ponders, they will be better in hands that would otherwise have had 2 Trop or 2 Volcanic. Fetch makes your manabase more consistent.

[Cenarius]

Undone, I think this is a never ending discussion with you. I can continue giving arguments about the reason 6 duals and 8 fetch is ideal for me, but no matter what I do, I just cannot convince you.
So, I'm just going to end the discussion here. It has no point for me to convince you. I know that 8 fetch is the best build, for me, and I know it for a long time now. If you like to have only 6 fetch, that's your loss. Am I right, or not?

About the new fetch and the inclusion of them in the mainboard.
It doesnt matter what fetch you play. Pithing Needle on fetch will never occur and Extirpate on fetch will never occur. It's just not good enough anymore.
It's just personal preference on what fetch you want to play and what fetch you don't want to play. If you like to spend $ 20/25, since they will be more expensive than the ONS fetchlands (standard, extended, vintage and legacy players want them) than its your option/opinion. I won't play them as fast as anyone else since I don't want to spend so much on Magic the Gathering. Tournaments are already expensive, (oh, wait) everyday life is expensive.
For me, it's an unneccesary topic since the inclusion of the UG, UR, UW or UB fetch will not make any difference.
However, I think everybody should play 4 Wooded Foothills for the suprise effect. It's such a house to go Wooded Foothills (bluff that you are goblins/sligh/loam etc.) and play stifle.

Instead we should discuss other things. We should not discuss things like mainboard shifts (Vendillion Clique/Bounce/Force Spike (my build)) and things like manabases (which have no further purpose in the deck since you only play duals) and start discussing things like:


sideboarding against certain decks
how we should play against certain decks (aggressive, controlish, Hardcore LD-based)
if Daze should boarded out on the draw, after game 1 ofcourse (and how many).
can we board out ponder and what consequences will it bring?
etc.


Things like that are way more important than discussing 2 or 3 different cards in each mainboard and posting your mainboard/sideboard all the time without any arguments.
Also things like mainboard forest/island is already tested. It's just not good enough.
Things like the merfolk matchup is discussed on every single page. Should we continue discussing the merfolk matchup over and over? Hopefully not.
If you are new to the forum, just look at original posts. It helps.

[Jade]

sideboarding against certain decks
how we should play against certain decks (aggressive, controlish, Hardcore LD-based)
if Daze should boarded out on the draw, after game 1 ofcourse (and how many).
can we board out ponder and what consequences will it bring?
etc.



Sideboarding is something I struggle with every game. What has to go in is quite obvious most of the time, but what to take out gives me headaches.

How many cmc2 spells do they need to let Spell Snare in?
How many targets do they need to let Stifle in?
When to board out Fire/ice?
Do you board out any number of Wastes against mono-colored decks?

I rarely board in Disrupts, allthough I like the card. Against Balanced Thresh I'm more concerned keeping CB off the board than countering they're cantrips, so I won't board them in. Against Vial Goblins or Zoo they haven't got enough targets. I think against Merfolk it isn't worth it either. It's good against ANT LS and the mirror, but does it enough in these 3 Match ups to warrant the inclusion? Very possible that I'm wrong here, as I just try to get a grip on the deck.

[undone]

So, I'm just going to end the discussion here. It has no point for me to convince you. I know that 8 fetch is the best build, for me, and I know it for a long time now. If you like to have only 6 fetch, that's your loss. Am I right, or not?

I own 20 fetches im unconcerned about card cost/availability. I simply feel that being more vulnerable in the mirror and dreadstill matchups isnt worth the cost.


It doesnt matter what fetch you play. Pithing Needle on fetch will never occur and Extirpate on fetch will never occur.

Possible that extirpate will not however pithing needle(because your forced to crack in responce to it being played) can occur simply saying it will never happen is like saying "I will never not have a creature out and get tropical island extirpated." It happens, its rare but it happens.

Also daze, I find daze to be a 4 of or a 0 of because you want to either draw one early for the blowout, or two late to act as FoW 5.

I dont board out ponder often as I feel its critical to the deck, the cards I board out depending on the matchups are

Bolt (decks with big green dudes) -> submerge
Fire/ice (Ux control with goyf and landstill) -> Pyroblast

Those are the only really common board outs/ins that I have with the deck.

[betterthenandrew]

On Tuesday the 1st I played Tempo Thresh at a small local event and took 3rd out of 22, going 3-1, getting a DCI regrowth for my troubles. I was playing the stock list with bounce spells. I have generally played with the Cliques instead, but decided to give the bounce spells a shot again, and damn were they good. While people have been playing casual legacy for quite some time the tournament scene is pretty new and the meta is still fleshing itself out. I recently moved to Santiago, Chile from Minnesota about 3 months ago and am getting myself acclimated to the local legacy scene. The meta is quickly developing, though it is still a pretty warped environment. There is surprisingly little blue (specifically Counterbalance), and even more surprisingly almost no combo (one guy played Belcher the past couple weeks, and I played ANT the week before). A majority of events have allowed proxies which makes the lake of goyfs even more surprising. The consistent top placers have been Enchantress, (goyfless) Dreadstill, Merfolk and Goblins with a couple Loam and Stax decks doing pretty well as well. Most of the other decks are random midrange aggro things. Like I said there is almost no combo . This was going to be a bigger event than the last couple because it was the first sanctioned event here, and thus no proxies (which is good for me because I don't really like to use them/don't really need to use them) . We had 22 people, and only enough time for 4 rounds. Sad day. I'm pushing for moving the events to every Saturday so we can have enough time for as many rounds as we need and would probably get a bunch more people as its tough for people to get there in time after work, and its a bit late to be out on a Tuesday night, especially for the guys with families and such. We'll see what happens.

Maindeck:
Stock 60, with the 2 bounce spells
Sideboard:
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroclasm
2 Null Rod
2 Disrupt
1 Reverent Silence

The Reverent Silence was a last minute addition to beat the Enchantress player, which is usually a guy I have to face at some point in the night and have had quite a bit of trouble beating in the past. Of course I didn't face him tonight, either way this card was unnecessary. I wanted to try the null rods as an answer to the decks that board in Relics, because they also have either Moxes (loam, stax) or Vials (tribal aggro) and occasionally equipment as well. While they would have been helpful had I drawn them I didn't see them when I needed one, and will be cutting them for something, I'm considering Ancient Grudges as the grips are less relevant with a lack or CB. The most obviously missing card is Submerge. About 3 months ago, when I first showed up to a tourney I boarded it, but have come to find that the only decks with forests were playing all creatures with CITP abilities, and it lost a lot of its power (mostly loam decks like Aggro Loam and Astral Slide). Submerging a Witness or Heirarch is not the most powerful play ever. While Goofy hasn't been a major player it looks like a few more guys splurged and picked up a set, and thus the submerges will be coming back in as well.

Sorry if there isn't a ton of detail, its all from memory.

Round 1: Mono Red LD thing.
Game 1: I have no idea what he's playing and keep a color light hand (one Fetch and one waste) with a pretty good mix of spells- Stifle, Ponder, FOW, Mongoose being on the play. I'm pretty happy with it. He mull and decides to shuffle towards me and I see a bunch of LD spells (Pillage, stone rain, molten rain, etc.). He keeps his 6 and we are off. I drop a Delta, go. He draws, drops a Port and a Chrome Mox trying to toss a Pillage to it, but I make him back up and stifle it (figuring its budget and he won't have much else worth stifling, I was right). He pretty much does nothing the rest of the game except getting a Nevinyrral's Disk stifled that would have killed my only Goose.
Game 2: I board out Spell Snares and 2 Fire/ Ices for 3 BEBs, 2 disrupts and a Nullrod. This game we both draw tons of lands and I have 7 lands (3 of each dual and a waste) and he has 5 lands and a pair of Chrome Moxes. I daze his LD spells and stifle/bolt his Avalanche Riders. At one point he tries to Stone Rain a Trop and I respond with a Rushing River, sacing the land to bounce both his moxes. Eventually I dropped a Nimble Mongoose, he answered with a Neninyrral's Disk, which I null rodded (also locking down his Moxes which he replayed after I rushing rivered them). We played a 3rd game and was pretty much the same as game 2.
Win, 2-0
1-0-0

After my round I was watching the match next to me, Enchantress vs Tempo Thresh. The Enchantress player has a Choke, a Moat, and a bunch of lands. The Thresh player doesn't have threshold (3 cards), has a 3/4 Goyf, a mongoose, a bunch of choked duals, and a couple wastes. They go back and forth, thresh misses a couple plays that could have won the game but things are still looking alright. He Grips the moat and gets through one turn (missing that he could have wasted 2 of his own lands, threshing his goose and winning). Time is called and Enchantress has been forced to fog a turn with Sacred Mesa and then another with Solitary Confinement (no enchantresses to maintain it). Thresh has to waste a Serra Sanctum to break through the Mesa going down to one land. Turn 1 the enchantress player drops Elephant grass at 2 life vs wasteland, Mongoose and Goyf. Turn 2 yields nothing, turn 3 Enchantress pays the upkeep and drops an Argothian Enchantress. Turn 4 thresh rips a second land, reveals it, enchantress concedes, they shake hands and both start cleaning up. At that point I point out that the enchantress is a creature, could have chump blocked ending the match in a draw instead of a loss and they both decide to back it up and keep playing, ending the match in a draw. I was like dude, you already won, he conceded, there is no going back at this point. The thresh player insisted though, because they were friends, and of course the match ended in a draw. Ultimately the thresh player should have won a long time ago (as he noted himself). Whoops. He also shuffled away a Wasteland (which would have let him attack through the Elephant Grass from the beginning) instead of a spell snare off a ponder earlier while his opponent had a City of Solitude in play. Honestly I was glad they ended in the draw bracket, as I didn't particularly want to face either of them though its always rough watching a friend throw away a win like that.

Round 2: White Stax
Game 1: I win the roll, mulligan 2 no landers into a 1 land ponder hand without Snare, FOW or Daze. Sketchy. I was pretty sure he was playing Sea Stompy, because thats what he normally plays, but turns out it was white stax (pretty much the same game plan though). I turn one ponder revealing no lands, shuffle and draw a wasteland. I have a Mongoose, wasteland, Fire/ice, and Wipe Away. Not good. He drops turn 1 City of traitors, Chalice for 1 and I concede a couple turns later when he gets Wasteland/ Crucible/Magus of the Tabernacle down to my two trops (which immediately became 1 trop) and a mongoose.
Game 2: I board out my 4 Fire/Ices, wipe away and a stifle (I think?) for 2 Disrupts (For Armageddon), 3 Grips, and a Null Rod (I'm pretty sure he brought in Relics, plus his moxes). I drop a turn 1 Mongoose (with Daze in hand). I counter his first couple threats, drop a second dude and he never really does much.
Game 3: Same as game 2, except I have a bunch of wastelands and dazes to keep him out of the game, and he ends up stuck at 3 mana with 2 Armageddons and 2 Magus of the Tabernacle in hand.
Win 2-1
2-0-0

Round 3: Tempo Thresh
Game 1: I love tempo matches. Love them. Whether its Team America or Canadian Thresh, I could play the tempo mirror all day, every day. Unfortunately I have been paired down (its the guy who drew round one) and I'm pretty sure he has a better board than I do for the mirror. Game one he wins the roll and I mull a no land hand into a 1 lander. I almost screw myself out of the game when he tries to waste my one Tropical. I brainstorm, he fetches and brainstorms to which I say sure, and immediately realize I have a daze in hand. Wow. I almost scoop it up here. He does his brainstorming and attempts to daze my brainstorm (thank god), letting me daze back, saving my land. A couple turns later I go aggro, drop a couple Mongeese and beat him down.
Game 2: I know he has a full set of disrupts, and is running one Clique over a bounce spell. I decided to board out 3 spellsnares and the wipe away for 2 disrupts and 2 Rebs. Game 2 starts shaky as well when he sticks a pair of unthreshed Mongeese early. Mongeese are so clutch in the mirror, and once they are down, they tend to stay there. I hit thresh first and get in a few attacks before he hits thresh. I eventually get a goyf out and miss the fact that I should start attacking with the goose (he has 2 mongeese, threshed to my 3/4 goyf and threshed goose). The game goes on forever, I try to stick another Goyf but he kept his snares in and snares it, I ReB, he Snares again and I let it go. Eventually he drops a relic (really? I'm pretty sure thats not right to bring in). We both have about 25 cards in our graveyards, so its going to be a while before the relic really does anything. We both keep trying to waste the other player out of green, but its not working. I saved one of mine with a wipe away when it was my last one on table, that was cool. Eventually I realize I should be attacking, he pops the Relic, burns my goyf, drops his own, I bolt it and he is attacking with a 1/1 Goose. Time gets called and I set up a position where I will be able to kill him on turn 5 of final turns with a bolt, a Fire, and a rethreshed goose, though I don't really need to because I won game 1. Even though I made a ton of mistakes in both games it was super fun, and even more so because I won.
Win 2-0
3-0-0

Round 4: Rg Goblins.
Game 1: I mulligan a one land hand into Waseland, Tropical, Fire/Ice, ponder, Lighting Bolt, Something Else. I turn one Ponder into no red mana, dazes or creatures and shuffle, drawing nothing relevant. He drops a lackey. I draw nothing relevant and ice his lackey. He drops another mountain and a vial. I still draw nothing relevant, he connects with the lackey, drops a Boartusk Liege and I die pretty quickly. I do manage to rushing river them both back to his hand, but it doesn't matter as he connects again, and I don't rip the red source until I'm dead. He drops a Lighting Crafter to finish the deal.
Game 2: I board out 4 Force of Will, 2 spell snares and a Wipe Away for 3 BeBs, 2 Pyroclasm's and 2 Null Rod (I know he has a full set of relics, plus the Vials.). I am on the play and daze his turn 1 lackey, bolt his turn 2 lackey, Pyroclasm away his Piledriver and Skirk Prospector, BeB his first Boartusk and get down a couple Mongeese to hold off his second Boartusk. He drops a relic and I keep stifle mana open for it for pretty much forever. I'm sitting pretty much right at 7 cards in the grave, going up and down turn to turn. Eventually I have 2 mongeese, 3 duals, a fetch and a waste to his Goblin Chieftain and liege, with 5 cards in the grave. He Relics me (dropping to 4 cards), plays a Matron, getting a Lackey, plays the lackey and attacks with all but the Chieftain. I Fire his goblin Chieftain and hes like ok, it doesn't die. I know its a 3/3 because of the liege. I then waste my own land (he had all basics) and double block the liege being threshed again. Liege dies, mongoose dies, chieftain dies and he lackeys in a Lightning Crafter (I was hoping the lackey was a bluff, he had one card left in hand) while I drop to 2. I draw nothing good enough, stifle the crafter bolting me and he drops a Kiki Jiki. I Lose. Lame. I challenged him to a game 3, because we had plenty of time to kill, but he declined. I think I am favored here, especially post board, but need to play a bit tighter.
Lose 0-2
3-1-0 (6-3-0)

Well, could have been better. Tempo thresh is obviously the nuts, one of the most fun and most powerful decks in the format. I'm going to overhaul the sideboard (getting rid of garbage like reverent silence and adding more Disrupts). I'm considering adding Ancient Grudges and will be putting the submerges back in now that people are starting to run more goyfs. I'm thinking something more like:

3 Disrupt
2 Reb
3 Beb
2 Pyroclasm
3 Submerge
2 Ancient Grudge

This looks a little better, except for the obvious lack of Grip for CB. Fortunately CB is not a major player around here. Grudge seems generally better against the aggro decks, though the ability to SS grip a Relic might outweigh the card advantage provided by the flashback. We'll see what happens. Unfortunately I had to miss this weeks event because my Tourist visa expired and I had to take a trip to Argentina. I'm not sure what I'll be playing in the coming weeks, but it will probably either be this or ANT (except I can't play ANT on sanctioned weeks until I pick up my last 2 chants).


Some basic thoughts/questions about the deck-
1.I have seen a lot of builds with 6 blue fetches, isn't a 2/2/2 Delta/Strand/Foothills split strictly better? In my experience foothills is the best fetch for the deck as Basics are terrible and cracking a Foothills to Stifle a fetch is awesome. Obviously this changes somewhat with the new fetches coming.
2.I have started boarding out FOW vs the tribal decks. There is really nothing I like to FOW (except for Lackey, but my answers to him go up post board anyways). I always felt like the card I was RFGing to FOW was more important than than the card I was countering. What does everyone else think about boarding it out, is this obvious, or obviously terrible? What am I missing?
3.In the mirror I like to board out Snares. Is that correct? Gofy generally seems weaker than Goose because there are more answers to it being board. The mirror is one of my favorite match ups, and incredibly skill testing. In my experience it goes incredibly long and eventually comes down to sticking more geese (vs Team America, practically the mirror, it comes down to Tombstalker). The worst cards seem to be Spell Snare and Wipe Away, followed by fire/Ice if there are more board cards. This is where I would like the most insight.
4.What is the consensus on on bounce spells vs cliques? When are each better? The more I play the deck, the more I lie bounce spells for their extreme utility. I think Clique is one of the most underrated cards in the format, and I have had success with it in this deck, but would like to hear some serious conversation on when to play each.
5.Whats the deal with Relic? I think the card is good, but I think the card is hardcore overrated. In my meta everyone boards it in vs anything with goyfs. Anything, and everyone (as can be seen above even the mirror boarded it). What considerations do people give to relic when boarding? Pithing Needle seems like a decent answer, obviously, and I have had some good experiences with Grip as well (at GP Chicago I played TA and won every game I saw a Relic because my opponents misplayed it, generally trying to wait until my end step to pop it resulting in my either gripping it or dropping a Stalker). As I said above CB is a non relevant force in my meta and as such I am considering Ancient Grudges (though weaker vs other decks such as Enchantress, which is relevant).

If you have any insight/Ideas/suggestions do not hesitate to reply/PM me them. I am very interested in improving my TT game, and will do so much faster with your help. Thank you in advance

[firstshot]

I board down to 2 dazes on the draw fairly often.
I rarely board out ponder. If I know my opp is boarding in disrupt in the mirror I'll board out 1-2 b/c its a blowout if they get it.

[firstshot]

boarding out snare in the mirror seems wrong b/c goyf is huge.
I generally board out my 4 lightning bolts for 4 submerage and 3 pyroblasts for 2 clique and 1 daze.
I'm prefer the creatures over bounce but I think its playstyle and meta dependent.
Relic is annoying but only relevant if your opponent is also putting pressure on you.
I think the type of fetchland is mostly irrelevant in local events. If your going to a big event where people don't know what your playing than you can play 4 wooded foothills and blow people out w/ stifle for the 1st 3 rounds until people realize you are playing tempo thresh.
Also I think at minimum you need 7 duals. 6 is greedy. Either way I'm playing 8 and to my knowledge goobafish has been playing 8 since chicago and I completely agree. I've cast all 4 tropicals and volcanics before. Sometimes you have to find your 4th trop to cast a green creature or that 4th volc for the lethal lightning bolt.
Yes brainstorm + fetch is awesome but casting spells is also awesome.

[goobafish]

Sometimes you have to find your 4th trop to cast a green creature or that 4th volc for the lethal lightning bolt.

This actually comes up surprisingly often. It has come up against Back to Basics (often), Team America, Landstill and the Mirror. I would never go down to 6, or even 7 duals.

[Atog]

He pretty much does nothing the rest of the game except getting a Nevinyrral's Disk stifled that would have killed my only Goose.


Did you win in that turn? Just because disk won't be sacrificed part of activate. So he could use that next turn if you didn't win that turn..



Card Text:
Nevinyrral's Disk enters the battlefield tapped.
1, Tap: Destroy all artifacts, creatures, and enchantments.


But congrats still for top3 :)

[DragoFireheart]

I got this hunch that once enemy fetches come out, this deck will lose a lot of it's power due to people being able to run basic lands in their decks.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

I got this hunch that once enemy fetches come out, this deck will lose a lot of it's power due to people being able to run basic lands in their decks.

False. People will still run fetches and 2+ color decks meaning stifle+waste will still be relevant. Heck, wasteland has a way of finding itself useful in like every matchup from mutavault in merfolk to port in golins and wasting other watstes in decks like loam and stax. Tempo Thresh will continue to be strong enemy fetches or no.

[Gibsonmac]

agreed!!

[TrialByFire]

Dave do you ever board out Wasteland? I boarded out 2 Saturday against mono red burn, wasn't terrible, but wanted your opinion.

[firstshot]

While I'm not dave, I've never boarded out wasteland. You need lands to cast goyf and wasteland can counteract price of progress by killing it and another land saving you 4 life.

[Hanni]

I got this hunch that once enemy fetches come out, this deck will lose a lot of it's power due to people being able to run basic lands in their decks.

Stifle?

[goobafish]

Dave do you ever board out Wasteland? I boarded out 2 Saturday against mono red burn, wasn't terrible, but wanted your opinion.

No, I do not board out Wasteland. I agree with Ben's arguments for keeping Wasteland in against burn.

[Cenarius]

Well I do board out Wasteland out.

Against Solidarity I board out one copy.
Against MuC I Board out one copy.

Think that's about it.

[miko]

Do you guys have any special boarding plans against zoo?
how do you play this particular matchup?
because my meta strongly consists of zoo decks of almost any variant.
i play goobafish's list.

my sb looks like this:
4 disrupt
2 reb
2 pyroblast
1 krosan grip
1 pyroclasm
2 engineered explosives
3 submerge

do you have any further ideas?

[Henrik]

For the 2 open slots, have Psionic Blast ever been considered?

[Skeggi]

3 Mana for 4 damage. You play red. There are tons of better options if you require extra burn.

[Henrik]

Such as?

[Skeggi]

Chain Lightning. Okay - it's only 3 damage and it's a Sorcery - but it kinda fits the curve better.

[GreenOne]

Such as?
I'm playing 1 Magma Jet in those slots. The scry ability is quite good.

[sauce]

So another Zendikar card, this one can actually replace Disrupt in the sb... right Gooba?

Spell Pierce
U
Instant
Counter target noncreature spell unless its controler pays 2.
Common

Obv doesnt cantrip but it hits other things on the draw like CB/TOP/etc.. and it asks for 2 mana instead of 1.

[Wargoos]

So another Zendikar card, this one can actually replace Disrupt in the sb... right Gooba?

Spell Pierce
U
Instant
Counter target noncreature spell unless its controler pays 2.
Common

Obv doesnt cantrip but it hits other things on the draw like CB/TOP/etc.. and it asks for 2 mana instead of 1.

I dunno cantripping was always quite important in counterwars for me.
Also disrupt was there to meddle the opponents EOT spells, countering brainstorms and giving you another counter.
I think it needs some testing.
But for all of those maindecking force spikes this is good news.

[Cenarius]

It's a pity that you guys (or actually u EaD) think that I chose Force Spike because it could counter Artifact's and Enchantment's and not Creatures.
The new counter is in my opinion not good enough since it cannot counter creatures.
I'll know that Force Spike will/is better, without testing since it cannot counter Creatures. The "unless pay 2" is only a mediocre change and therefore should not be played instead of Force Spike.

[sauce]

It's a pity that you guys (or actually u EaD) think that I chose Force Spike because it could counter Artifact's and Enchantment's and not Creatures.
The new counter is in my opinion not good enough since it cannot counter creatures.
I'll know that Force Spike will/is better, without testing since it cannot counter Creatures. The "unless pay 2" is only a mediocre change and therefore should not be played instead of Force Spike.

i agree that this card is def worse than force spike.

[goobafish]

I will be testing it over Disrupt in the board. I have a feeling that it will be pretty good.

[Wargoos]

It's a pity that you guys (or actually u EaD) think that I chose Force Spike because it could counter Artifact's and Enchantment's and not Creatures.
Dude, I don't know your list and it was not thrown towards you.

I said it needs testings that's all.

[Enigma]

I will be testing it over Disrupt in the board. I have a feeling that it will be pretty good.

I had the exact same thoughts about the card. After have faced Dragon Stompy twice in a row at 10K SCG Charlotte, I must admit a more versatile SB might be good. Countering Blood moon, Cotv and Trini now looks way easier, and this card is still good against MBA, Eva Green, Control, Combo, etc. (i.e. deck that Disrupt is good to board in against).

P-M

[Cenarius]

I had the exact same thoughts about the card. After have faced Dragon Stompy twice in a row at 10K SCG Charlotte, I must admit a more versatile SB might be good. Countering Blood moon, Cotv and Trini now looks way easier, and this card is still good against MBA, Eva Green, Control, Combo, etc. (i.e. deck that Disrupt is good to board in against).

P-M

Well thats one of the reasons why I started playing Force Spike in the mainboard. Another thing is that half of my team plays Combo at a high level so extra counters should not be a bad thing about it.
EaD, you know my build since we discussed it earlier:

#4: Fow, daze, stifle, brainstorm, ponder, bolt, F/I, Polluted Delta, Wooded Foothills, Wasteland, Tarmogoyf, Nimble Mongoose.
#3: Spell Snare, Force Spike, Tropical Island, Volcanic Island.

Second:

"Do you guys have any special boarding plans against zoo?
how do you play this particular matchup?
because my meta strongly consists of zoo decks of almost any variant.
i play goobafish's list.

my sb looks like this:
4 disrupt
2 reb
2 pyroblast
1 krosan grip
1 pyroclasm
2 engineered explosives
3 submerge

do you have any further ideas?"

Well considering the David Caplan's list I would board the following on the play:

-1 Rushing River (submerge is better + the rest of you board is probably too strong to board out)
-1 Vendillion Clique
-3 Fire/Ice (submerge is better + the rest of you board is probably too strong to board out)
+3 Submerge
+2 Engineered Explosives

On the draw I would board:
-1 Rushing River (submerge is still better + the rest of you board is probably too strong to board out)
-1 Vendillion Clique
-1 Daze
-2 Fire/Ice
+3 Submerge
+2 Engineered Explosives

How do you play against Zoo?
Thats a good question. I think its just surviving the first 3/4 rounds. Praying to god that you get an hand with 2 bolts and enough counters. Your late game is better than Zoo, although it totally depends on the list of Zoo.

--> What do you guys think?
--> How should I board against Zoo considering the list above?

[miko]

Thanks for answering my question even if the outcome of your answer is not very satisfying for me.
do any players who recently faced zoo have any further ideas of playing against zoo?

[Ironstickman]

I will be testing it over Disrupt in the board. I have a feeling that it will be pretty good

I think likewise. A deck like CT packing stifle/waste could make a bigger profit from this spell.
It fulfills disrupt's role and it seems quite useful against CBtop, landstill, MUC and Stax. Against burn/goyf sligh this seems less avoidable than disrupts. The question is wether the extra card from disrupt is more valuable than a plus of inevitability+targets.
I'll get my 4 for sure.

[Henrik]

Thanks for answering my question even if the outcome of your answer is not very satisfying for me.
do any players who recently faced zoo have any further ideas of playing against zoo?

I played against zoo in a tournament very recently, against a skilled and experienced player. It's an even matchup in my opinion, but as stated above, if you can defend against the initial assault of cats and apes, you're in a good position.

I believe that your best strategy is to focus on their lands, while burning away the initial 1-drops. Keeping their lands down will not only make it harder for them to play spells (obv), but also make their creatures smaller, wich can give you good opportunities to 2 for 1 with a fire. Also, daze remains relevant for a longer time, which could be extremely powerful game 1. This means a good keep for you would be a hand consisting of stifle, wasteland, bolts, and free counters, even though I don't recommend aggresive mulligans in this matchup, you'll need your cards.

My recomendations for sideboard strategy:
On the draw, bring in 4 submerge, bring out 2 bounce and 2 daze. Also bring in EE if you have it (I don't). Do not board out fire // ice for heaven's sake.
On the play, keep the dazes and board out something else, like 1 ponder and 1 spell snare, but bring in the same cards.

I won this last game with my breath caught in the throat, it is t i g h t !
However, that ensured my top8, and also later let me win the tournament, lucky me.


EDIT: I also must add that I think spell pierce looks extremely useful.

[Cenarius]

Well it's ofcourse easy to say to not board out Fire/Ice, but all the other cards are just way better than fire/ice, which cannot kill tarmogoyf, nacatl, kird ape etc.
Taking out ponder should not be a great idea. In every way: EE > Fire/Ice and Submerge > Fire/Ice and Whole deck > Fire/Ice against that matchup. Spell snare counters pretty important spells: Goyf and Tribal Flames are just few examples. Therefore should NOT be boarded out instead of Fire/Ice.

[sauce]

Well it's ofcourse easy to say to not board out Fire/Ice, but all the other cards are just way better than fire/ice, which cannot kill tarmogoyf, nacatl, kird ape etc.
Taking out ponder should not be a great idea. In every way: EE > Fire/Ice and Submerge > Fire/Ice and Whole deck > Fire/Ice against that matchup. Spell snare counters pretty important spells: Goyf and Tribal Flames are just few examples. Therefore should NOT be boarded out instead of Fire/Ice.

dont forget price of progress... zing

[Henrik]

One man's meat is another man's poison.

[undone]

Fire ice is great because if you are able to deal with thier first turn 1 drop followed by ice on thier first land sometimes they had no turn 2 or its another meh 1 drop. The above stratigy of focusing on lands is a VERY good one. It also sets up wasteland 2 for 1s.

[DKK]

I split in the top4 going 4-0-2 with 2 ID's in a 22 person tournament yesterday.

I played Goobafish' list from Gencon with the following changes due to card availability:
MD:
-1 Fire/Ice
-1 Rushing River
+1 Wipe Away
+1 Trygon Predator

SB:
-1 Disrupt
+1 Krosan Grip

I played the following matches:
UWB Landstill 2-0
RGb Loam 2-0
Mono R Goblins ID (teammate)
RGb Loam 2-1 (should've been 2-0, I lost g1 because of an extremely stupid play from my part, he stabilized at 1 life)
UGr Goyf/Kudzu/Shackles 2-0
Merfolk ID (i was in already)

Predator won me 1 game, but I would've also won if it were Fire/Ice #4. I never used Disrupt, but that was because of my matchups. Submerge were golden as I expected.

I picked up the deck for the first time (I had never played a game with it before yesterday). The most difficult part was what to board out in certain matchups.

[toni_a_salmi]

Hi folks, it has been few weeks when wrote here last time. I had a legacy tournament in local cardshop yesterday and here is few thought about it.
There was +20 participants and I went 3-1-1 nad I was 4th.
Here is my list that I played...

4x Goofy
4xGoose

4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x FoW
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Stifle
3x Fire/Ice
3x Spell Snare
2x Force Spike
2x Rushing River

4x Ponder

4x Wooded Foothills
2x Polluted Delta
4x Wasteland
4x Tropical Island
4x Volcanic Island
------------------------
2x Trygon Predator
2x Krosan Grip
4x ReB
2x Pithing Needle
3x Submerge
1x Pyroclasm
1x EE


I played a second time Force Spikes in maindeck and they rocked
like in a last tournament. Everytime spike came "behind the tree".
I played agains RGW zoo (2-1), 4C Meathooks (2-0), Boros (2-0),
Dreaded Cephalid Breakfast (1-2) and Fetchland Tendrils (tie).

First 3 maches were quite easy for me and I had nice topdeckmode
agains Meathooks. The hardest matchup was Cephalid cause I really
didnt know what deck it was after first game. I sided in ReBs and needles
cause I saw dazez ,vials and I lose to combo. In a second game i was
quite supriced when opponent played dreadnought after he failed to get
combo to table and I really couldnt do anything to nought so that big guy
beat me. In third game opponent started playing land vial and pass.
I played land needle to vial but after few seconds I realizet that the
problem wasnt vial it was en-kors so cause of my mistake I lose after
he got combo. Last match agains Doomsdaydeck was awful. I didnt
drew a tropical and I had 3 goofies in my hand so it was too late even I
finally got tropicals. Second game I mulligan to 5 and both players had
problems with lands. Finally opponent played doomsday and tried to finish
me but I had ReB for meditate and I wont with goose & bolt. Time run out
before we started 3rd game.

Trygon predators were quite useless cause I didnt face up any stax
or CBtop decks but I think those are still relevant cards in SB.
I think I should play couple gravehatecards especially wotc unbanned
entomb so I think there will be a lot of hulk decks and more ichorids
in future. What do you think about adding gravehate? and plz leave
comment if you have something to say :D

[undone]

How does every one else play the mirror, I was testing it and it seems like the matchup goes into a stalemate and goes on for 15-20 min.

[miko]

the last mirror i played was 3 years ago. and i won it because i had fire/ice and/or bolt whenever i needed them. and i had 2 or 3 engineered explosives in my board.

i think the mirror depends very much on the draw and on the sideboard.

[undone]

Really? thats a long time, I always board out bolts because goyf never seems to be the game winning creature, goose always seems to get there (Especialy post board with submerge is a card.) I play the standard 60 with cliques over bounce spells and these as the board

3 Grim lavamancer
4 REB
4 Submerge
2 Grip
2 Predator

I generaly board out 4 bolt 2 ponder 2 clique for 4 REB 4 submerge and keep another ponder on the play for a submerge or REB depending on my opponents playstyle.

[miko]

it was like 3 years ago and it worked at that time. i had a different list too as well as my ops had.

interesting board. what do you board lavamancer for? can you support lavamancer?

Capitalization is required on this boards. Please use it in the future. Thanks. - zilla

[Cenarius]

Can you indeed explain your sideboard, instead of just posting it without arguments?
I mean:
Why predator?
Why Grim Lavamancer?

[undone]

Lavamancer is good against all tribal decks first off, its especialy good vs tribal with relics because its easy to dump 2 cards and get a free bolt inresponce to relics trigger. Its also able to be brought in vs zoo if you feel you need more cards for the matchup. Being anti synergystic with goose is pretty irrelivant because it typicaly comes in if they are playing relic which makes goose tiny anyway. In my experiance 3 activations are enough and typicaly X gooses get boarded out for them anyway (because my opponent is boarding in relics, sometimes I keep goose on the draw vs goblins) Pyroclasm discourages overextending, while lavamancer forces them to over extend to even play magic. Also lavamancer is HOT vs goyfs (in the goyfmerfolk matchup)he can make your fires and bolts actualy kill goyfs. He also generaly comes in vs ichorid (not that you win that one) as he is suicidal and sometimes eats bridges and keeps you from dieing or lets goyfs get there.

Predatory is there for the mandatory chalice/3sphear/stax stompy varients that roam around, that card resolves it just beats them pretty much alone. Its probably the weakest card but it is also pretty good vs CB decks so it probably stays.

I have loved 4 submerge and wouldnt cut a single one.

4 Pyroblast is awsome. (yes it should be 2 REB 2 pyroblast but untill I lose a game for playing pyroblast I will just suck it up)

2 Grip Every SB should play this card right :P Its actualy awsome at busting up top more than CB.

[Skeggi]

Lavamancer is good against all tribal decks first off, its especialy good vs tribal with relics because its easy to dump 2 cards and get a free bolt inresponce to relics trigger. Its also able to be brought in vs zoo if you feel you need more cards for the matchup. Being anti synergystic with goose is pretty irrelivant because it typicaly comes in if they are playing relic which makes goose tiny anyway. In my experiance 3 activations are enough and typicaly X gooses get boarded out for them anyway (because my opponent is boarding in relics, sometimes I keep goose on the draw vs goblins) Pyroclasm discourages overextending, while lavamancer forces them to over extend to even play magic.
So what you're saying is, Goose is graveyard dependant and is bad when Relic hits play, and that Grim Lavamancer, another graveyard dependant card doesn't have that problem?

I haven't tested this, but I find the hypothesis you pose here rather ridiculous. It makes absolutely no sense. According to this logic Kird Ape would be a better sideboard card because he has no graveyard related problems and actually does beat for 2 every single time. But really - isn't a Pithing Needle on Relic just much easier and much more logical? Or am I just not seeing the big picture?

[undone]

Look at it this way.

Goose requires 7 cards in the graveyard to be relivant.

Lavamancer requires 2

This type of senerio happens frequently

0 cards in GY for tempothresh player.

You bolt Lord X and they still have a dude. It resolves going to the GY you now have 1. Next you fetch (or in responce to the trigger because you may need to resolve it to have the red open) Activate lavamancer at no point durring this does relic do anything to hinder lavamancer. Essentialy every 2 cards you play become a shock. (although relic forces you to use them)

Heres another common one

0 in GY

Ponder (resolves)
Play a wasteland pass

You now realisticaly have 2 cards in your GY even if he removes them you remove them as a cost in responce.

Basicaly he isnt GY reliant in the same manner.

And while I know many times we need to play the tempo game lavamancer is straight up CA in these matchups. It kills lots of dudes and annoys the hell out of mutavaults, it makes their wastes worse and so on and so on. Try the card you just have to play conservativly and gain alot of CA during the folk matchup and lavamancer is a fantastic way to do that.

[Skeggi]

If your graveyard is empty, and your opponent has an untapped relic, you have to play at least 3 spells a turn if you want Lavamancer to work.

[undone]

...

Opponent has untapped relic

You have lavamancer + volc + other land + fetch/waste/any 3rd land.

You cast spell X. They have no chance to respond once its in the GY you retain priority and even if they tap it you can respond with a lavamancer activation after fetching/wasteing/bolting/brainstorming/fire/ice/exct.

Heres a fairly easily occuring position

Him 3 island relic LOA
You Trop Volc Fetch Lavamancer

You cast ponder off trop, your opponent can FOW it for all we care during the exersize. Ponder resolves/is countered GY count 1. Now no matter how your opponent responds you have a lavamancer activation. at this point the options for folk player are

-1 your yard with relic, this is met with sac fetch activate lavamancer
-1 your yard followed by you sacing a fetch and still without passing priority lavamancering LOA. Even if they responded you have already removed 2 cards and paid the cost.

Basicaly what I am saying is that it makes every one of your 10 sac lands into shocks and frequently gets more than that out of cards (if they just 1 your GY you only have to be patient and respond to the 1ing of your gy instead of agressivly trying to put cards in it for mancer.)

Lavamancer pays 2 cards as a cost, which means that nothing is able to respond to you having two if you have fetch/waste, in addition because of this when they "force" you to shock a lord you are ok because you can still brainstorm at EOT and fetch or you can still bolt at EOT (in which case it does become 3 cards but is still very good)

EDIT: I havent tested this idea yet but its possible that lavamancer > Athervial+ standstill if they only have one and you have 6/7 in hand mostly because if you keep dealing with thier creatures with mancer they lose. Once again this one is untested but is possible true (And very interesting)

[Cenarius]

They can respond, making your Grim Lavamancer useless. Trust me.

First: When you play ponder/brainstorm. It resolves. Then you pass the priority. He then can tap his relic, so ponder/brainstorm goes to RFG. Then you get priority back, you can fetch and again your opponent can respond my removing a card. However if you do have another (Red) mana open, that does not mean that you can play its ability since the Fetch does not yet have come to the grave, since its just a responds.
You therefore need 3 cards in your graveyard, to make this work.

Even two cards each turn is way too much too counteract Relic. Once Mid- or Lategame it is extreemly hard to get two cards in your graveyard.

Boarding out Nimble Mongoose is never a good idea. This creature is the best you have. Against so many decks Nimble Mongoose is just so good. You might say that Tarmogoyf is the best creature we have, but we simply play Tarmogoyf to counteract your opponents' Tarmogoyf. May seem a bit strange, but Tarmogoyf isn't really that good (I mean it costs 2 mana, which is not good at for your tempo game).
So if you want to do something about relic, that both hits Tarmogoyf and (your best creature) Nimble Mongoose, play Pithing Needle. It not only shuts down Relic. It also shuts down Aether Vial (, Survival, A. ruins, V. stronghold etc.) and top.

My sideboard is:

3/4 Submerge (depends on how many tribal)
4 Pyroblast
3 Pithing Needle
2/3 Pyroclasm (depends on how many tribal)
2 Engineered Explosives

[quicksilver]

They can respond, making your Grim Lavamancer useless. Trust me.

First: When you play ponder/brainstorm. It resolves. Then you pass the priority. He then can tap his relic, so ponder/brainstorm goes to RFG. Then you get priority back, you can fetch and again your opponent can respond my removing a card. However if you do have another (Red) mana open, that does not mean that you can play its ability since the Fetch does not yet have come to the grave, since its just a responds.
You therefore need 3 cards in your graveyard, to make this work.


They cannot respond, making your Grim Lavamancer useful. Trust me.

First: When you play ponder/brainstorm. It resolves. Then you get priority. Then you can fetch/wasteland and gain priority while the fetch is on the stack (sacrificing is a cost so it goes to the graveyard immediately). At this point you can now activate lavamancer at any time, either immediately after activating the fetch or in response to the relic activation. Relic can not stop you now from activating the lavamancer. They key to this whole scenario is to have a card that goes into your graveyard as a cost, which fetches and wastelands do.

[nitewolf9]

First: When you play ponder/brainstorm. It resolves. Then you pass the priority. He then can tap his relic, so ponder/brainstorm goes to RFG. Then you get priority back, you can fetch and again your opponent can respond my removing a card. However if you do have another (Red) mana open, that does not mean that you can play its ability since the Fetch does not yet have come to the grave, since its just a responds.
You therefore need 3 cards in your graveyard, to make this work.


You are wrong on this. After Brainstorm/Ponder resolves you regain priority with a single card in your yard. Lavamancer will be able to activate no matter what they do (cost vs ability).

Edit:

http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2008/7/16/633518443034181823-mind-your-surroundings---motivational-friends-poster.jpg

[Wargoos]

So if you want to do something about relic, that both hits Tarmogoyf and (your best creature) Nimble Mongoose, play Pithing Needle. It not only shuts down Relic. It also shuts down Aether Vial (, Survival, A. ruins, V. stronghold etc.) and top.

My sideboard is:

3/4 Submerge (depends on how many tribal)
4 Pyroblast
3 Pithing Needle
2/3 Pyroclasm (depends on how many tribal)
2 Engineered Explosives

I'm currently testing a very similar sideboard consisting of:
4 Submerge
4 Red Blasts
3 Needle
2 EXplosives
1 Pyroclasm
1 Krosan Grip

I've got some control like Landstill (oldschool) and even ITF going on, paired with some Fish packing Vial-decks and zoo.
Merfolk is awesomely underplayed and goblins see absolutely no play, so the sb performed quite well for me.
With zendikar release, I'll give spell pierce a shot.

Also I have been thinking of testing a tempo list with the disruption package of canadian paired with some jittes and spellstutter sprites md.
Any 1 tried that before?

[undone]

Boarding out Nimble Mongoose is never a good idea. This creature is the best you have. Against so many decks Nimble Mongoose is just so good. You might say that Tarmogoyf is the best creature we have, but we simply play Tarmogoyf to counteract your opponents' Tarmogoyf. May seem a bit strange, but Tarmogoyf isn't really that good (I mean it costs 2 mana, which is not good at for your tempo game).
So if you want to do something about relic, that both hits Tarmogoyf and (your best creature) Nimble Mongoose, play Pithing Needle. It not only shuts down Relic. It also shuts down Aether Vial (, Survival, A. ruins, V. stronghold etc.) and top.

I know goose is better than goyf in many matchups (the mirror, landstill exct). I dont believe this is so if they play relic.

EDIT SIDENOTE: If they play the STP splash than I dont board out as many gooses probably just 1.


They can respond, making your Grim Lavamancer useless. Trust me.

No, no they can not. Using the above situation of LOA 3 island relic vs lavamancer trop volc fetch.

Merfolk player: Pass the turn.
TT player: at end of turn I cast brainstorm
Merfolk player: Ok it resolves
TT player: (goes through brainstorm motions)
Merfolk player: Ok I will activate relic to -1 your yard.
TT player: in responce I will sacrafice my fetchland, still in responce without passing priority I activate lavamancer.

At this point you have 0 in your yard, relic resolves and you remove 0

The only possible responce is flash a dude in with aether vial, and if vial is in play simply respond to vial activations.

At no point does relic hinder using fetchlands/wastes+card to shock with him.

You are quite simply wrong. no senerio you set up makes relic relivant provided you have land volc fetch and any 1 mana non permenant spell

Also what your not seeing is that lavamancer only needs to activate 2/3 times to be pure CA heck even at one it can trade with a silvergil after killing a lord/thrasher.

Also unless you face a lot of deed/EE heavy metagames I hate needle it just feels like discarding a card so that you dont have to play around a card. (The acception being Deed and EE which both blow out goose goyf and even vendillion clique)

Also this is a worst case senerio for lavamancer, consider what happens when they DONT have a relic and you have a lavamancer with 10+ cards in the yard. Basicaly you win the game as soon as you untap from that.
EDIT: OMFG nitewolf9 thats god damn funny

[DragoFireheart]

I've personally tested Lavamancer. Most of the time, goose is too small when compared to other creatures.

Lavamancer kicks the crap out of tribal decks, which can give this deck a hard time. He also turns your Bolts into 5-damage spells: more than enough to take down your average Gofy.

[Atog]

I've personally tested Lavamancer. Most of the time, goose is too small when compared to other creatures.

Lavamancer kicks the crap out of tribal decks, which can give this deck a hard time. He also turns your Bolts into 5-damage spells: more than enough to take down your average Gofy.

That lavamancer could be handy if we wouldn't have already good matchup against merfolks and decent against Goblins. I'm quite sure that lacamancer would not be gamebreaker against goblins. They just win, because they make more CA than we (via ringleader and matron). And for goyfs we have already bolts and F/I.

If you have lots of tribal in your meta, you should put extra Pyroclasm and maybe +1 EE in your SB.

[Skeggi]

They key to this whole scenario is to have a card that goes into your graveyard as a cost, which fetches and wastelands do.
That's true, and is exactly my point. You only have 4 Wastelands and 8 Fetches, which means you have 12 cards which go to the graveyard as a cost. I don't think it's enough.

[undone]

Sigh. Ok lets back up.

The reason lavamancer is in over clasm is 12 lord folk builds typicaly can play around clasm. Its much harder to play around mancer.

secondly, you all automaticaly assume a relic resolved and has been active all game, this is a pretty grim senerio to me.

Lastly pyroclasm is not a creature and therefor vulnerable to cursecatcher.

Also the matchup against goblins you dont board out goose you board something else, and resume the standard stifle/force ->Ringleader and SGC

also turning 10 cards in your decks into "whatever your doing+ shock" is very strong especialy when that kills a creature every time you draw one. he is a strong threat to folk and is more burn in the goblin matchup, it acts like the abyss in that matchup and is another out to lacky and provides raw CA even against the good goblins players. And when the goblin player doesnt resolve relic or a ringleader activation you usualy win.

Also by that logic, brainstorm isnt good enough because you only have 6 shuffle outlets that arent ponder. with only 6 grim would be good enough because 2 activations typicaly makes him a 3 for 1 but with double that he typicaly sits there like the abyss most games.

[Wargoos]

The reason lavamancer is in over clasm is 12 lord folk builds typicaly can play around clasm. Its much harder to play around mancer.



Could you elaborate, why it is harder to play around mancer, please?

Also, although I hadn't the chance to test mancers yet, I think it's clear, that they need to take more sideboard slots than pyroclasm.
Mancer is good, when you can drop him early and isn't as good as pyroclasm drawn and played onto a board consisting of multiple opposing folks and gobs.
So if you can't dedicate at least 3 slots to mancer, I think you are just better off with pyroclasm - although mancer clearly has advantages in a heavy swarmaggro infested meta.

[undone]

Mancer vs clasm

Mancer Pros
- Mancer in your opening 7 vs many aggro decks is like turn 1 lacky, must be answered or lose. (this applies to folk and goblins, and sometimes elves)

- Mancer helps in matchups where your opponent may play goyf(Merfolk, Zoo)

- Mancer helps the ichorid matchup more than clasm because instead of removing tokens, he is suicidal and prevents the dread return ->6/9 zombie blow out, you still have to draw a goyf to answer the ichorids but you can win because bridges go away.

- You cant really play around lavamancer, it simply abysses a guy every turn (unless you have vial than it becomes a "whoever shoots first loses" game and if mancer invalidates a vial thats pretty good.)

- Conclusion, mancer is great in a tribal/ichorid metagame and sill has mediocer functions against other decks(as he is mediocer vs 43 land due to no need to attack) where some cards are just dead in those matchups, its also pretty good in the zoo matchup.

Lavamancer cons

- Lavamancer is a sad panda to leyline, but so is your deck.

- Lavamancer + goose is a nombo much of the time, although in some cases (ichorid goblins) you dont need to board out goose because even as a 1/1 it has a use and as a 3/3 it randomly wins

- Lavamancer dosent answer a seige gang commander/hoard of ichorid/ETW tokens very well

Pyroclasm pro

- Pyroclasm answers tokens like none other

- Discourages over extending

- pretty good vs swarm aggro (not zoo)

Pyroclasm con

- Pyroclasm is made of fail vs zoo as lavamancer at least trades and can make your goyfs more awsome than thier goyfs, lavamancer is also able to negate every lavamancer they play :P

- clasm isnt the abyss, if they have a haste lord they get at least one swing if you dont have other burn

Overall its probably a metagame call, however lavamancer just feels like its better in more matchups than clasm. Heres the matchups where I would rather have clasm than mancer and visa versa

Mancer >= clasm

Goblins
Merfolk
Ichorid
Zoo

Clasm >= mancer

Goblins
Ichorid
Elves

(on both means situational and about even)

I do feel mancer is slightly better but you do need to run more SB copies of him to make that true, which means that possibly its better to keep clasms but I am going to run mancers for a while to get a better feel of how they handle in each matchup, but I Feel like unless im desperate for more ichorid hate I am not going to need the last slot (As I feel EE is slow and clunky, and needle is a meh permenant)

[Cenarius]

Grim doesnt kill creatures in Zoo either. It also just deals 2 damage, the same as Pyroclasm. Grim also dies against removal, pyroclasm cant.
Second: if you want to board in 7 things out against Zoo. Good luck? Can you tell me what you board out for the grim lavamancers? Burn?
Just play Pithing Needle. It helps against Top, Vial and Relic. I'm not going to discuss it over and over. Pithing Needle > Grim lavamancer as solution too Relic.

[DragoFireheart]

Grim doesnt kill creatures in Zoo either. It also just deals 2 damage, the same as Pyroclasm. Grim also dies against removal, pyroclasm cant.
Second: if you want to board in 7 things out against Zoo. Good luck? Can you tell me what you board out for the grim lavamancers? Burn?
Just play Pithing Needle. It helps against Top, Vial and Relic. I'm not going to discuss it over and over. Pithing Needle > Grim lavamancer as solution too Relic.

Mongoose isn't much better aginst Zoo either: he is too small early on and only trades with Cats once he hits Threshold.

At least Grim can fry Pridemages and let your burn spells kill Goyfs: Goose can't do much to Zoo.

[undone]

Grim doesnt kill creatures in Zoo either. It also just deals 2 damage, the same as Pyroclasm. Grim also dies against removal, pyroclasm cant.
Second: if you want to board in 7 things out against Zoo. Good luck? Can you tell me what you board out for the grim lavamancers? Burn?
Just play Pithing Needle. It helps against Top, Vial and Relic. I'm not going to discuss it over and over. Pithing Needle > Grim lavamancer as solution too Relic.

Last time I checked lavamancer had a point of power.

Lavamancer also helps you bolt goyf.

Lavamancer is also just good in general vs alot of matchups playing needle once again (unless naming deed or EE, and possibly top) feels underwhelming.

And are we really using the "Dies to removal" arguement?

Board out : 2 ponder 2 clique/bounce 2 mongoose 1 daze, these can be changed based on build but so what. Goose is pretty meh in the matchup snf lavamancer is faster and answers opposing mancers.


Mongoose isn't much better aginst Zoo either: he is too small early on and only trades with Cats once he hits Threshold.

At least Grim can fry Pridemages and let your burn spells kill Goyfs: Goose can't do much to Zoo.

Lavamancer fries pridemages and occasionaly (with a lucky waste hit) you will fry a cat/ape, but as above said, he still traides with nactal. In addition to making your burn better (how much better is fire with lavamancer!)

Im not saying its impossible for me to be wrong but I think you should at least test it before ridiculeing. Im not advocating replacing goose or anything like that im simply saying in some matchups goose is just not that hot and lavamancer is very very hot in several of those...

[DragoFireheart]

Last time I checked lavamancer had a point of power.


Im not saying its impossible for me to be wrong but I think you should at least test it before ridiculeing. Im not advocating replacing goose or anything like that im simply saying in some matchups goose is just not that hot and lavamancer is very very hot in several of those...


Oh yeah, that's right. Grim can block and then shoot a Cat before combat damage. They both die, but Grim doesn't need 7 cards to be in the yard.

[Wargoos]

Oh yeah, that's right. Grim can block and then shoot a Cat before combat damage. They both die, but Grim doesn't need 7 cards to be in the yard.

there new rules u kno. combat dmg doesnt stack.

[undone]

there new rules u kno. combat dmg doesnt stack.

If I could face palm harder my brain would be splattered all over the wall.

:rolleyes:

Block, shoot resolve damage. cat dies

now on topic. Thats the point, lavamancer basicaly has "Threshold 2" instead of "Threshold 7" for him to work which is key in the early game, the only reason he can never be main deck is because shroud is hugely relivant to probably around 70% of all matches, where as with goblins/folk its RARELY relivant and with zoo who cares thier dudesare way bigger than mongoose.

[Wargoos]

If I could face palm harder my brain would be splattered all over the wall.

:rolleyes:

Block, shoot resolve damage. cat dies

now on topic. Thats the point, lavamancer basicaly has "Threshold 2" instead of "Threshold 7" for him to work which is key in the early game, the only reason he can never be main deck is because shroud is hugely relivant to probably around 70% of all matches, where as with goblins/folk its RARELY relivant and with zoo who cares thier dudesare way bigger than mongoose.

nvm. happens to the best.

Proper capitalization and grammar are requirements on these boards. Please use them. Thanks. - zilla

[DragoFireheart]

Lavamancer can also Shock once per turn for the tow cards in GY and also reduse Goyfwith the cards removed.

What's "cat", btw?

Wild Nacatl.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//carddisplay.php?product=52959

[Cenarius]

Wild Nacatl.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//carddisplay.php?product=52959

Trying to get as many posts as possible?

Anyway, lets discuss something else. What is our strategy/goal against Landstill UW(x) and how do we board against Landstill UW(x)? How should we play against UW(x) Landstill?

For the people who do carry Pithing Needle's with them in their sideboard. Do you think Pithing Needle are good enough against Landstill? I mean there are enough target that are ownage against you f.e. Factory, (mb wasteland(/crucible)), Elspeth, Jace, Explosives and top etc.
Are Pyroblast good enough to board in? They only carry:

3 Spell snare
3 Counterspell (Spell snare hits that too)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill (Spell snare hits that too)
2 Cunning Wish
2 Jace Beleren/Fact or Fiction

Taking a normal list or something like that. As you can see, I think Pyroblast should be boarded in. I don't know if they have to come in for Spell Snare's but you probably can take out 2 or 3 of them.
Should we board out burn? How many?

Well, hopefully you'll pick this up.

[Henrik]

Well, for one thing, the new spell pierce has the wording;
"U
When playing against Any Landstill deck, counter any spell in your opponents deck for the first 3-6 rounds."

I think that's pretty hot.


EDIT; My first testing will be to carry around 4 of these spells in the SB instead of disrupt. I like disrupt, but I think Spell Pierce is a lot broader. So I would board in these, and I agree on the pyroblasts as well. Out would probably go 2 fire // ice, 2 bounce, 1 ponder, 2 daze, 1 snare or something like that.

[Wargoos]

Trying to get as many posts as possible?

Anyway, lets discuss something else. What is our strategy/goal against Landstill UW(x) and how do we board against Landstill UW(x)? How should we play against UW(x) Landstill?

For the people who do carry Pithing Needle's with them in their sideboard. Do you think Pithing Needle are good enough against Landstill? I mean there are enough target that are ownage against you f.e. Factory, (mb wasteland(/crucible)), Elspeth, Jace, Explosives and top etc.
Are Pyroblast good enough to board in? They only carry:

3 Spell snare
3 Counterspell (Spell snare hits that too)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill (Spell snare hits that too)
2 Cunning Wish
2 Jace Beleren/Fact or Fiction

Taking a normal list or something like that. As you can see, I think Pyroblast should be boarded in. I don't know if they have to come in for Spell Snare's but you probably can take out 2 or 3 of them.
Should we board out burn? How many?

Well, hopefully you'll pick this up.

Huh?
Haven't you already told how to run this mu some pages back?
Anyway, I guess it's a good strategy to board in needles, since they hold the ls player off top action, which strenghtens our stifle/waste concept against them.
Also needling their factories helps mungo a lot and stifle is a house against decrees.
More than often you will find yourself in need of needling explosives, to shut them down off their only removal for mongoose and needle itself - and here is also the weak point of needle - they can get rid of it with a lone explosives if you don't name EE.
But I think we should still board and go for needle because we can back it up with stifles.
That's for the obvious part.

The blast point: I recommend boarding it. It shut's off their CA-engine and helps you win counterwars, which is needed to force mongoose on the board and to protect it.

[undone]

The simplest explanation for the landstill matchup

Goose>landstill
EE> Goose
Stifle> EE

so logicaly we can conclude that

Stifle> landstill

The 12 best cards in your deck are 4 goose 4 stifle 4 FOW, keeping a hand without one or two of those is a recipie for disaster.

[Skeggi]

Goose>landstill
EE> Goose
Stifle> EE

so logicaly we can conclude that

Stifle> landstill

And since Pithing Needle is a Stifle on a stick, wouldn't you like Pithing Needles in your sideboard?

You made a valid point about Grim Lavamancer: he should be tested. What does a sideboard packing Grim Lavamancer look like?

Also, if you're packing 2-3 Pyroclasms, shouldn't one or more be Firespout? Since that does deal with Cats. And Apes. Unfortunately also with Mongeese.

[Cenarius]

And since Pithing Needle is a Stifle on a stick, wouldn't you like Pithing Needles in your sideboard?

You made a valid point about Grim Lavamancer: he should be tested. What does a sideboard packing Grim Lavamancer look like?

Also, if you're packing 2-3 Pyroclasms, shouldn't one or more be Firespout? Since that does deal with Cats. And Apes. Unfortunately also with Mongeese.

There are several reasons why TT should not pack Firespout:
1. CC3 (instead of CC2)
2. Kills your own Mongoose

Do I need to say more? Probably not.

[Wargoos]

Also, if you're packing 2-3 Pyroclasms, shouldn't one or more be Firespout? Since that does deal with Cats. And Apes. Unfortunately also with Mongeese.

Firespout is a sorceryspeed cc3 spell.
Canadian can't afford to tap out and cc3 is slightly too high for this deck.
Also Wasteland Pyroclasm combo kills cats and apes but let's mungos survive.

[undone]

Pretty much whats been said 3 mana is too much for cards that arent vendillion clique or instants. Also killing goose is a nombo.


And since Pithing Needle is a Stifle on a stick, wouldn't you like Pithing Needles in your sideboard?

Grip/predator deals with more than needle and isnt narrow as needle (as you cant hit fetches with it and nameing wasteland is not fun times.) its alot differant than stifle in that they dont pay the cost to do it and can sweep away needle later and instantly have access to those cards.


You made a valid point about Grim Lavamancer: he should be tested. What does a sideboard packing Grim Lavamancer look like?

this is mine
4 REB/Pyroblast
4 Submerge
2 Predator
2 Grip
3 lavamancer

Submerge is awsome so is grip and mancer. REB is also just generaly good.

[Skeggi]

So, against Merfolk for instance, you'd go -4 Nimble Mongoose, -2 Force Spike/Vendilion Clique (depending on your build), -1 something else, +3 Grim Lavamancer, +4 Red Blast?

Against Zoo it'd be -4 Nimble Mongoose, -2 Force Spike/Vendilion Clique, -1 something else, +3 Grim Lavamancer, +4 Submerge?

Amirite? What would the something else be? A Ponder perhaps? But isn't Nimble Mongoose alot better against Zoo because of Shroud? So where would you side in Grim Lavamancer besides Merfolk?

[undone]

So, against Merfolk for instance, you'd go -4 Nimble Mongoose, -2 Force Spike/Vendilion Clique (depending on your build), -1 something else, +3 Grim Lavamancer, +4 Red Blast?

Against Zoo it'd be -4 Nimble Mongoose, -2 Force Spike/Vendilion Clique, -1 something else, +3 Grim Lavamancer, +4 Submerge?

Amirite? What would the something else be? A Ponder perhaps?

thats pretty close although I would probably board out a ponder instead of the 4th goose, as you can always get rid of goose but you need more threats. I also keep clique on the play, not on the draw though. Again this is if you expect relics/crypts. If you dont than you cant cut goose you cut something else probably for 2 mancers (cliques probably)

[Genericcactus]

Also, if you're packing 2-3 Pyroclasms, shouldn't one or more be Firespout? Since that does deal with Cats. And Apes. Unfortunately also with Mongeese.

Firespout seems awesome in the zoo matchup, but kind of bad against everything else. Against zoo, it kills pretty much anything, they don't have mana denial so you can easily get three land, mongoose is crap in that matchup so killing one of your own doesn't seem awful. However, I think EE just makes more sense in the board against zoo. EE is also better against merfolk than pyroclasm is. I guess pyroclasms ony real use is against gobbos, and I think that matchup is still favorable without it.

[firstshot]

versus zoo what about
play -2clique -1 goose -4 f/i +4 submerge +3 lavamancer
draw -4 stifle -2 clique -1 daze +4 submerge +3 lavamancer

could also play 1 pyroclasm/crypt in the board instaed of the 3rd mancer and only need 6 spots.

[undone]

firstshot versus zoo what about
play -2clique -1 goose -4 f/i +4 submerge +3 lavamancer
draw -4 stifle -2 clique -1 daze +4 submerge +3 lavamancer

could also play 1 pyroclasm/crypt in the board instaed of the 3rd mancer and only need 6 spots.

Seems good. If I had to pick another card for the board its crypt or spell pierce. Pierce is good because it counters 3sphear, stax, chalice, and so on. It does help other matchups ALOT I think I could see doing this board

3 spell pierce
4 submerge
4 REB/pyroblast
2 Grip
2 Lavamancer

The reason pierce is so awsome is that it frequently answers relic, is an answer to T1/2 top, its an additional tax spell if we want to pierce/daze a top for a psudo mana leak and if people actualy play around it thats like adding a time walk to the deck, if not its also another out to CB.

Relivant cards pierce doesnt hit is something like

Goyf
Mongoose
Rhox war monk
Dreadnaught (kind of?)
Tombstalker

I didnt cover the creatures where burn will do because we already have answers to those. This card is a solution to the following decks

Stax
Stompy
Landstill
Stupid black decks playing hymn/duress/rit/smother

And helps a fair amount in the following matchups depending on build

Burn
Counter top thresh
combo (not that we have a bad matchup here)
Ichorid (snares are just dead cold these are actualy 1 mana hard counters 90% of the time even for things like dread return if you arent dead to tokens)

Crypt also helps a multitude of matches by helping ichorid, landstill, aggro loam, and 43 lands, although I think that those are less common than the matchups pierce helps. Probably a metagame choice to be honest it will be interesting to see if pierce is as good as it looks on paper, it could be a big flop but im going to guess people in legacy will either not play around it or better yet, they will.

[Cenarius]

It's funny that people finally understand that a card that says counter target artifact/enchantment/sorcery and instant is good. You also see its flaws: Creatures.
Try Force Spike mainboard and you'll understand why I believe that, that card is broken in this deck.
I mean, if you think that Spell Pierce is a good sideboard card, why wouldn't you start playing it mainboard and instant play a counter that also counters creatures.
It's just so funny to see. Hope some other people share the same thoughts that already do play Force Spike (probably just an handful).

[undone]

Cenarius It's funny that people finally understand that a card that says counter target artifact/enchantment/sorcery and instant is good. You also see its flaws: Creatures.
Try Force Spike mainboard and you'll understand why I believe that, that card is broken in this deck.
I mean, if you think that Spell Pierce is a good sideboard card, why wouldn't you start playing it mainboard and instant play a counter that also counters creatures.
It's just so funny to see. Hope some other people share the same thoughts that already do play Force Spike (probably just an handful).

Sigh Spell pierce is twice as good as force spike, and SB material at best because in many matchups its just dead in the water. Spell pierce is hugely differant in that playing around it isnt like playing around daze. While playing around force spike is the same as snare. Also When your opponent goes "city of tratiors, imprint red card, 3 sphear" and you force spike/daze and they HAVE the SSG you die, when you have spell pierce and they have the ESG they lose a 3sphear and alot of tempo.

Force spike sucks in the long game, it has no use but pitching to FOW, spell pierce turns dazes into mana leaks save vs a few creatures (as burn handles most)

even if you attack a manabase the best you can play around daze/force spike most of the time, however pierce helps some of the hardest turn 1 plays on turn 1 with no card disadvantage.

Its something to think about, force spike doesnt do this, and if they wait two turns you have had sufficient time to cantrip, one turn is at best one cantrip.

Example, if a player has a top and you have pierce both of you have trop. They can

1) Wait 1 turn for the daze
2) Wait 2 turns for the pierce
3) run top into 1 of 7/8 conditional counters

The most important hits are

Top
Blood moon

The reason for this is that top gives your LD stratigy fits, and blood moon, is well, blood moon. Trygon predator and force spike dont help EITHER of these if played by good players. The problem with force spike is like mana leak. The only way to play around it is naturaly. You dont wait 3 turns to cast wild nactal in extended just because your opponent has UX up, because playing around it can only happen in the very late game and than it acts like 3 LD spells. Daze already does Spikes job, Pierce is a whole new department.

[Bahamuth]

Sigh Spell pierce is twice as good as force spike, and SB material at best because in many matchups its just dead in the water.

You make unfair comparisons here. First of all, Spell Pierce isn't twice as good as Force Spike. Aside from that, you can't say: "Spell Pierce is SB material, and I think it's better than Force Spike. Therefore, Force Spike sucks". I don't even agree with you that Pierce is better than Spike.


Spell pierce is hugely differant in that playing around it isnt like playing around daze. While playing around force spike is the same as snare. Also When your opponent goes "city of tratiors, imprint red card, 3 sphear" and you force spike/daze and they HAVE the SSG you die, when you have spell pierce and they have the ESG they lose a 3sphear and alot of tempo.

This is probably the most uncommon example you could've come up with. I hope you too realise this situation does not actually happen often, even aside from the fact that no one plays Dragon Stompy, and even if they do, they will generally not draw into: 2-mana land, Mox, imprintable card, 3Sphere/Moon and SSG.


Force spike sucks in the long game, it has no use but pitching to FOW, spell pierce turns dazes into mana leaks save vs a few creatures (as burn handles most)

Daze sucks in the long game too, and you still run it. I don't even agree with you that it always sucks by the way. Force Spike has some very significant advantages over Daze (as it's much better to Spike instead of Daze in the early game when you have the option to).


even if you attack a manabase the best you can play around daze/force spike most of the time, however pierce helps some of the hardest turn 1 plays on turn 1 with no card disadvantage.

The entire goal of playing Daze and Force Spike is trying to get the tempo advantage you need to win the game. Far from every deck can simply play around Force Spike all day long. In fact, probably only The Rock and sometimes Landstill has the opportunity to consistently do this. Even in those matchups, many scenario's will come up where your Force Spike isn't as dead as you considered it to be.


Its something to think about, force spike doesnt do this, and if they wait two turns you have had sufficient time to cantrip, one turn is at best one cantrip.

I have no idea what you're saying here.


Example, if a player has a top and you have pierce both of you have trop. They can

1) Wait 1 turn for the daze
2) Wait 2 turns for the pierce
3) run top into 1 of 7/8 conditional counters

I'm not interested in your scenario's where Pierce is better than Force Spike. I could list countless of cases where I get to Force Spike Goyfs or Zoo's creatures as well. It doesn't add to the argument as it doesn't have any quantitative value.



You dont wait 3 turns to cast wild nactal in extended just because your opponent has UX up, because playing around it can only happen in the very late game and than it acts like 3 LD spells.

Exactly. Just as in this case, Zoo player's won't wait an additional turn to play around Daze or Force Spike. They need their early beats to win, or we will drop too many Goyfs too early and stay out of burn range.


Daze already does Spikes job, Pierce is a whole new department.

Pierce is a whole new department, sure, but there's no such thing as saying that a card does the other one's job already. Aside from the fact that the cards are actually good in different situations, there's no reason not to supplement your tempo-counter package if the cards you add are reasonably strong.

I could say the first 2 FoWs in this deck already have the role of the second 2. You'd obviously say this is bullshit, but it's actually just a more exaggerated case of what you're saying.

[Skeggi]

Blood moon
Except that most Moons come in the form of a 2/2. Good luck with Spell Pierce. I have to agree with Bahamuth and Cenarius, Force Spike kicks the shit out of Spell Pierce. Situational Spell Pierce will be better ofcourse, but in general, if you play your cards right, they have no chance to play around Dazes, so Force Spike counters just as hard, but more.

[jazzykat]

Except that most Moons come in the form of a 2/2. Good luck Spell Pierce.

Unless you are cutting Bolts and Fire/ICE for spell pierce then all of your mountains are capable of killing moons then.

[Skeggi]

So there's no problem, right? A Force Spike is just as able to counter a first turn Blood Moon as a Spell Pierce is. The chance your opponent has another Simian Spirit Guide in his hand is very slim.

When it boils down to "I prefer Spell Pierce over Force Spike because my Dragon Stompy/Imperial Painter opponent might have a Simian Spirit Guide" over "I prefer Force Spike because it can counter Tarmogoyfs and Dark Confidants." I think it's a no-brainer.

[jazzykat]

Ah, well generally I'm in favor of Force Spike as well over Spell Pierce.

[undone]

Ok lets start with some results.

Deck check results for decks running force spike; tarmogoyf

4: 1 canadian thresh deck running 1 over a bounce spell.
1 madness deck running 3
1 tog deck
1 UGB tempo deck running 2

10 total copies

Decks running daze + tarmogoyf
1069

most run 4 or 3

So based on results daze is about 267.25 times better.

Does this give you an idea of how dumb the statement that forcespike works like daze is? Daze returns a land to brainstorm away, it gives you lisence to tap out, it does so much more than spike. Force spike on the other hand costs mana, doesnt return a land to your hand and is pretty bad. The best example I can come up with is something like this. Force spike is to daze, the way inspiration is to gush.

The only reason pierce would be good is that it stops some plays you cant otherwise stop. Example is top, if you have trop up a good player will wait a turn to play around daze, but will they wait 2 turns to play around pierce? (no one plays around double daze normaly because if you double daze your being 2 for 1ed.)


When it boils down to "I prefer Spell Pierce over Force Spike because my Dragon Stompy/Imperial Painter opponent might have a Simian Spirit Guide" over "I prefer Force Spike because it can counter Tarmogoyfs and Dark Confidants." I think it's a no-brainer.

Force spike actualy cant counter goyfs if your opponent doesnt run into them like a brick wall, and going spike+daze means that you just got 2 for 1ed vs snareing them. Because when they go island, island your deck just loses because you have spikes over relivant cards

People play around spike/daze because its easy and wins games.
People will not play around pierce (accept naturaly) because it loses games to do so.

[Skeggi]

So based on results daze is about 267.25 times better.

Does this give you an idea of how dumb the statement that forcespike works like daze is?

Before you start calling people dumb, you should compare Force Spike to the correct cards. If you read my words and read that I say Force Spike works exactly like Daze, you're the dumb one my friend. Force Spike is ran as a 2 of in the 'open slot' where many put their Vendilion Clique for instance. It does not substitute Daze.

The point with Force Spike (and Daze) in Tempo Thresh, is that people can't afford to play around them because you slow them down with Stifle, Wasteland and Ice, while beating face with a Nimble Mongoose or a Tarmogoyf. That's the entire point. That's why these cards are relevant.

When pressure is applied, people will walk into Daze or Force Spike with their Goyf because they need a blocker. But whatever you do, how much pressure you put on them, you can never ever counter a Tarmogoyf with a Spell Pierce.

[Wargoos]

This thread contains 20% discussion, 50% personal affronts and 30% hurt feelings.
I like it - go on.

[Henrik]

Word.

No other thread I read comes even near the amount of bashing that this thread holds. So, let's just make sure we're not comparing apples with pears before things get out of hand.

Cenarius et. al. We know you like force spike, it has been brought up several times already. I am totaly ok with that, but me I like the bounce, others like the cliques, and I hope that's ok with you guys as well.

Undone, we see your point as well even though your argument is of the track a little bit.

Personally, I like spell pierce and I will try it in the side. This does NOT make quotes like "How the hell can you see the use of spell pierce but STILL not agree with us on force spike" valid at all. Spell pierce was brought up by me to discuss the landstill-matchup, and my point was that it is a good extra counterspell in certain matchups, just like pyroblast! I will not use it as a 2 or 3 of in the main to substitute anything else, and correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think that's what undone argues either.

[DragoFireheart]

Quit arguing about Force Spike. I'm tired of hearing how good/bad it is and honestly it's not a mandatory slot and is more of a "user preference" like the fairy or any other odd card.

Considering that Force Spike has been around for a long time and hasn't seen large amounts of play, it may not be as good as some are making it out to be:

http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Threshold+UGr&format=Legacy

The new Spell Pierce, however, is a different beast. No, it can't counter creatures, but that's what our burn is for. The only big creature it won't be countering when the opponent is low on mana is Tarmogoyf.

What Spell Pierce does do is make it extremely difficult for decks that rely on non-creature bombs (Humility, Elspeth, etc) to have a difficult time in playing them. The two mana cost is much harder for opponents to play around and can help act as an auto answer to nasty-first turn when on the play. If this were Standard I'd write it off as that format is creature, but Legacy is far more non-creature saturated in comparison.

Testing should be done on the new Spell Pierce.

[DragoFireheart]

I'd like to elaborate on why I think Spell Pierce is superior to Force Spike.

Here's a list of "bombs" that you never want to see resolved:

- Humility
- Ad Nauseum
- Elspeth, Knight-Errant
- Standstill
- Counterbalance + Sensei's Divining Top
- Trinisphere
- Chalice of the Void
- Blood Moon
- Aether Vial
- Dread Return
- Dream Halls
- Natural Order
- Stifle (on our fetches or on a PhD)

Any one of of these spells resolving can be a serious issue for our deck. Lets look at creatures that are nasty but are not quite potent enough when compared to non-creature spells:

- Tarmogoyf: He's nasty, but so is yours. You have Spell Snare to counter him (instead of using it on 2CMC spells like Counterbalance) and you can Ice him and swing for damage if you need to kill your opponent.

- Sower of Tempation: Fire/Ice and Bolt kills him. Not too much of an issue and it can only grab your Gofys and doesn't stop a Threshed Goose.

- Terravore: It's true that he is big and is probably one of the few exceptions where Force Spike is vastly superior to Spell Pierce. However, you can save counter magic specifically for him if you want.

- Countryside Crusher: You can counter with other counters instead, or you can bolt him when he first comes out. The nasty spells from the Aggro-Loam matchup are non-creature anyways, so having more counters that are harder to play around is better.

- Tombstalker: Not much you can do to stop it without Force or Submerge if they leave one mana open in anticipation of Daze, so Force Spike wouldn't make a difference here.


Lets face it: while Force Spike is nice in it's flexibility, Spell Pierce hits enough important spells while also forcing the opponent to wait longer before he can cast his end-game bombs. Also, Spell Pierce is better than Force Spike in mid-game if the match somehow drags out that long. The sacrifice of flexibility to have a cheap counter that requires more mana (something the opponent will be hard-pressed to have) is, in my opinion, a superior spell for this deck.

[Wargoos]

I'd like to elaborate on why I think Spell Pierce is superior to Force Spike.

Here's a list of "bombs" that you never want to see resolved:

- Humility
- Ad Nauseum
- Elspeth, Knight-Errant
- Standstill
- Counterbalance + Sensei's Divining Top
- Trinisphere
- Chalice of the Void
- Blood Moon
- Aether Vial
- Dread Return
- Dream Halls
- Natural Order
- Stifle (on our fetches or on a PhD)

Any one of of these spells resolving can be a serious issue for our deck. Lets look at creatures that are nasty but are not quite potent enough when compared to non-creature spells:

- Tarmogoyf: He's nasty, but so is yours. You have Spell Snare to counter him (instead of using it on 2CMC spells like Counterbalance) and you can Ice him and swing for damage if you need to kill your opponent.

- Sower of Tempation: Fire/Ice and Bolt kills him. Not too much of an issue and it can only grab your Gofys and doesn't stop a Threshed Goose.

- Terravore: It's true that he is big and is probably one of the few exceptions where Force Spike is vastly superior to Spell Pierce. However, you can save counter magic specifically for him if you want.

- Countryside Crusher: You can counter with other counters instead, or you can bolt him when he first comes out. The nasty spells from the Aggro-Loam matchup are non-creature anyways, so having more counters that are harder to play around is better.

- Tombstalker: Not much you can do to stop it without Force or Submerge if they leave one mana open in anticipation of Daze, so Force Spike wouldn't make a difference here.


Lets face it: while Force Spike is nice in it's flexibility, Spell Pierce hits enough important spells while also forcing the opponent to wait longer before he can cast his end-game bombs. Also, Spell Pierce is better than Force Spike in mid-game if the match somehow drags out that long. The sacrifice of flexibility to have a cheap counter that requires more mana (something the opponent will be hard-pressed to have) is, in my opinion, a superior spell for this deck.

I agree, that spell pierce sounds fantastic.
Also Tombstalker and Terravore do not see any play right now.
Terravore was cut by a lot of aggro loam decks and weren't played anywhere else that was semi-competetive.
Tombstalker-packing decks tend to lose to aggro and nearly vanished completely from the metagame.
Srsly, testing it can't be wrong.

[DragoFireheart]

Scythe Tiger:

Power/Toughness:3/2

Casting cost: G

Card text: Shroud (This creature can't be the target of spells or abilities.)
When Scythe Tiger enters the battlefield, sacrifice it unless you sacrifice a land.


I'm curious as to what Tempo players think about this creature. Sure, you have to sac a land, but you can sac any land and are not limited by what land it is. Also, it's damn near a 5-8 mongoose and doesn't rely on the graveyard.




--------
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Scythe Tiger

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt

2/3/4 Fire / Ice
(Tinker with the amount between these two.)
4/3/2 Spell Pierce





Yeah, yeah, I know. There is no Tarmogoyf in this list.

As a simple experiment, here is why I want to try it Goyf-less:

With all of our creatures having shroud, the only way they can die is from combat or non-target removal. We can use Bolt/Fire to blow up little guys, Ice to tap larger ones for the kill and our opponent is not likely to cast any non-target spells, since edicts all cost 2 and are hit with Snare or Pierce, while things like Deed get screwed by Stifle.

The following cards just turned into dead draws against our deck:


Swords to Plowshare
Vedalken Shackles
Smother
Gempalm Incinerator (burn cycle ability)
Spell Snare (for everything other than Fire/Ice, and Daze if you are a moron)
Snuff Out


Virtual Card advantage is good stuff.

Our CMC curve is 1 and we can literally run the whole deck off of 1 or 2 mana, somewhat offsetting the drawback of Sycthe Tiger.

I doubt it would work out, since Gofy is so amazing, but the theory is at least interesting.

[undone]

how do you beat a goyf? Can you answer that without 2 for 1ing yourself? turning goyf into hard removal and scooping the goblins matchup is a terrible plan. It might see play as a clique spot if a 5th goose would be good (vs say landstill and others) but I doubt it. One Ironic part about this card its awsome in the ichorid matchup and the mirror.

It MIGHT see play as a 1 of in some varients. Its unlikely that its better than clique but it might see minor play.

[DragoFireheart]

how do you beat a goyf? Can you answer that without 2 for 1ing yourself? turning goyf into hard removal and scooping the goblins matchup is a terrible plan. It might see play as a clique spot if a 5th goose would be good (vs say landstill and others) but I doubt it. One Ironic part about this card its awsome in the ichorid matchup and the mirror.

It MIGHT see play as a 1 of in some varients. Its unlikely that its better than clique but it might see minor play.

Maybe take out Fire/Ice and put in Gofys? I was curious if the Tiger would be even viable, nevermind optimal.

[undone]

Maybe take out Fire/Ice and put in Gofys? I was curious if the Tiger would be even viable, nevermind optimal.

heres the only way they would be viable

4 spell snare
4 force
4 daze

4 bolt
4 fire/ice

4 ponder
4 brainstorm

4 Goyf
4 Goose
1 Vendillion clique
1 Sything tiger

4 stifle

4 waste
4 Trop
4 volc
3 misty rainforest
3 Polluted delta

Its not better than clique imo but thats the slot it would go in.

[firstshot]

if you add scythe tiger it seems like you need more land because we only have 18 already.

[undone]

if you add scythe tiger it seems like you need more land because we only have 18 already.

Thats the other problem with it but realisticaly it costs 3 to play so it just sets you back. I dont think the card is better than clique which is its biggest problem.

[Enigma]

It's never close to what goyf is.

This cat is not a wall against aggro,
This cat doesn't help against a Cotv set @ 1
This cat can be easily blocked by any creature with 2 power (Including sick Mishra's, Kird Ape, Qasali, Silvergill, Any tribal lord, etc...)

and.. we have to sac a LAND. DUDES! We only have 18 of those, are you guys crazy?!

[firstshot]

does anyone else here play tempo thresh in modo classic events?

biggest change for me is +4 leyline -4submerge(bazaar of baghdad is lgl and submerge is not) and -1 v. clique +1 strip mine

[firstshot]

It's never close to what goyf is.

This cat is not a wall against aggro,
This cat doesn't help against a Cotv set @ 1
This cat can be easily blocked by any creature with 2 power (Including sick Mishra's, Kird Ape, Qasali, Silvergill, Any tribal lord, etc...)

and.. we have to sac a LAND. DUDES! We only have 18 of those, are you guys crazy?!

seconded.
Forgot to mention when I said tiger was bad b/c of the land count that 2 defense is also huge. blocked and killed much easier.

[Skeggi]

The entire idea of Tempo is to hinder your opponent in casting spells, while you're able to cast yours. It's a form of virtual card advantage in the early game. Scythe Tiger destroys one of your own lands, and thereby would hinder you in the early game to gain advantage. I don't think there's a spot in Canadian Threshold for Scythe Tiger.

[TrialByFire]

I'm definitely testing 4x Spell Pierce in the Disrupt slot. Seems like it would shore up some of the problems the deck has without having to resort to playing Needle

[Ironstickman]

I'm definately pro-spell pierce as sideboard material, but just remember that it won't solve a turn 1 vial, top, chalice on the draw, which are, prehaps, some of the most important weaknesses of this deck. I've been playing three sideboard needles, and found them quite consistent when dealing particulary with survival decks (rising popularity lately), since most lists have dropped all of their graveyard-hate, and the unchecked CA provided by the enchantment means we've lost.

Any suggestions for the sideboard configuration with s.pierce?

4 Submerge
4 S.pierce
? REB/pyro
? pyroclasm
? needle
? krosan grip

[Gui]

The entire idea of Tempo is to hinder your opponent in casting spells, while you're able to cast yours. It's a form of virtual card advantage in the early game. Scythe Tiger destroys one of your own lands, and thereby would hinder you in the early game to gain advantage. I don't think there's a spot in Canadian Threshold for Scythe Tiger.

This... But maybe it could help out when you are @ turn 3-4 , with 3 lands on table, being able to cast this and save the other two mana for business...

It's not like anyone should run 4 of it anyways... its a 1~2 card at maximum...
One could run 4 goose + 4 goyf + 1~2 tiger + 1~2 clique... Sure, less business in some cases, but that would be personal choice...

Since it's a pure-aggro card, it should be compared to those... and imho, goose's shroud is the reason for him to be so awesome... the fifth (disconsidering it's lesser thoughtness) wouldn't be that bad...

[TrialByFire]

Since it's a pure-aggro card, it should be compared to those... and imho, goose's shroud is the reason for him to be so awesome... the fifth (disconsidering it's lesser thoughtness) wouldn't be that bad...

I think Goose's 3 toughness is more important than people give it credit for. I would never play Scythe Tiger even as a 1 of

[Enigma]

Hey guys,

Firstly, I would like to speak a bit about Sideboarding.

I've been recently asked how I was planning my SB changes against the 2 best decks at the moment: Merfolk and Zoo.

I was just about to answer to this guy when I realized what I was previously doing was wrong, for what I think. Let me explain my previous strategy, and the one I'm looking to adopt eventually:

As some of you guys already know, I'm using the stock Lam/David's list with 2/2/2 split Fetchs and MD bounces, coupled with a slightly change in the SB:

2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
4 Submerge
3 Disrupt
2 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pyroclasm

Against Merfolk:
What's entering: Four blasts, check. 1 Pyroclasm, check. 1 E.E., check.
What to side-out?

- Bounces?: Those are 2 one I think we need to cut because of the greatness of our Sidecards which would just do better than these.

- Stifle?:
Siding-out stifle against this MU might be tricky, depending on two things:
1- Do they run a full set of Wasteland?
2- Do they bring Relics against us?

If the anwser is yes to both of these questions, I absolutly need stifle to be kept post-SB. This leave us to some really narrow choices as what to cut.

- Spell snares?: I've been siding-out those for a while, when I finally realized their keyspells were all 2cc. Sure they have Vial, but at least it will counter Standstill, which is a keyspell in this MU. And when we'll eventually come to the late game, vial might be not there anymore (thanks to E.E or a setting @ 3).

- FOW?: Let's replace 1-for-2 counter for blasts that will do just better but in the form of 1-for-1. There is none card I like to discard to those FOW anyway.

That's what I've been tinkering with in the last days and real good testings will tell me how it happens to be effective.

Comments are welcomed,

P-M

[FoulQ]

I'm no expert on the deck, but isn't boarding out force of will on the draw a very dangerous proposition? I'm just thinking if they land first turn vial, followed by second turn wasteland, things go bad. Or just a first turn vial in general can obviously cause problems.

But on the play I think it sort of makes sense.

[Gui]

I think Goose's 3 toughness is more important than people give it credit for. I would never play Scythe Tiger even as a 1 of

I actually give it credit, just disconsidered it for the sake that, besides the 4 goose (not comparing tiger to goose/goyf either, which are 4-ofs, no question here.) , there is no other creature that can be a shrouded beater, and although /2 is a lot worse that /3 (considering the amount of 2/x we got in the format), a 1-of tiger isn't that bad if opponent don't have how to block you, or only got a /3 or less creature that he doesn't wanna lose. Fact is that it's a low cost and functional aggro option that can serve well as a beatdown. And it doesn't depend on threshold up.

And, of course, i'm not saying you should run it even if you don't fell like. Just saying it could be an option for designers.

[TrialByFire]

I actually give it credit, just disconsidered it for the sake that, besides the 4 goose (not comparing tiger to goose/goyf either, which are 4-ofs, no question here.) , there is no other creature that can be a shrouded beater, and although /2 is a lot worse that /3 (considering the amount of 2/x we got in the format), a 1-of tiger isn't that bad if opponent don't have how to block you, or only got a /3 or less creature that he doesn't wanna lose. Fact is that it's a low cost and functional aggro option that can serve well as a beatdown. And it doesn't depend on threshold up.

And, of course, i'm not saying you should run it even if you don't fell like. Just saying it could be an option for designers.

I definitely agree that if you are looking for a 5th Mongoose its the best candidate (except maybe running Nacatl and a Tundra or Savannah as 19th land?)

[Gui]

I definitely agree that if you are looking for a 5th Mongoose its the best candidate (except maybe running Nacatl and a Tundra or Savannah as 19th land?)

Well, Nactal ain't got no Shroud, and is a little too dependant on that single land that will most likely be wasted...

[Stall_19]

Someone want to give me an idea of what manabases will look like with the new fetches?

[Jugglin]

Someone want to give me an idea of what manabases will look like with the new fetches?

If you don't play any basiclands, then you don't have to change anything.
Heck, even Wooded Foothills is fine.
It's more of a preference of having new fetchlands to play around with I guess, since every blue fetchland does the job.

[firstshot]

The manabase consists of:
4 volcanic island
4 tropical island
4 wasteland
6 fetches that find U or are named wooded foothills.
Some people cheats on duals and play 7-8 fetches but that is greedy so don't.

[Ectoplasm]

IMO it's cute to play a full set of woothills and bluff your opponent into a stifle now and then g1 :)

[undone]

IMO it's cute to play a full set of woothills and bluff your opponent into a stifle now and then g1 :)

I actualy think a better bluff is misty rainforest. This is because all thresh decks will run them and the one that will run the most will be UWG thresh.

[TrialByFire]

I actualy think a better bluff is misty rainforest. This is because all thresh decks will run them and the one that will run the most will be UWG thresh.

My Mana base is going to be
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Wooded Foothills
1x Delta
1x Strand

[FoulQ]

Is it better to surprise them with stifle off a wooded foothills, or is it better to make them cower in fear at a blue fetch when you don't have a stifle in hand?

Think about it.

[J.V.]

My Manabase looks like this currently:
4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn

[santeria]

Is it better to surprise them with stifle off a wooded foothills, or is it better to make them cower in fear at a blue fetch when you don't have a stifle in hand?

Think about it.


thought about it.

lead with the foothills game 1
let them cower with a blue fetch out games 2/3

[Jade]

thought about it.

lead with the foothills game 1
let them cower with a blue fetch out games 2/3

you'll cower them with Foothills too game 2/3. They should be afraid of Stifles anyway.
As said before, a Foothills not followed by a one drop - what deck could that be... In this regard not trying to bluff a Stifle with Foothills could actually be more successful, I think. I mean, Wooded not followed by a creature either means a bad Zoo player, a tier2/3 deck or Tempo Thresh while a blue Fetch could be anything.

[undone]

thought about it.

lead with the foothills game 1
let them cower with a blue fetch out games 2/3

Actualy thats if they are of a lower skill level. The problem is what happens when they go "tropical island go" you cant fetch now because THEY present stifle mana. I think its better to present trop followed by misty rainforest as that is more likely to indicated that they can fetch.

I would much rather drop a hard land on turn 1.

[Volrath]

With all the zoo, merfolk and other aggro decks running around i have been looking for a creature that could help in these MUs.

What can you reckomend?

I found Fire Imp a fun card against merfolk and other weenie decks by 2 for 1 ing them all day long.

but it still seems suboptimal

[undone]

Lavamancer> merfolk pretty sure they scoop to that card. Not that merfolk is a tough matchup, merfolk have troubles with cards that have the moutain type. Red spells in general beat that deck:tongue: Ask them, moutains > merfolk lol. If they splash white or green the matchup is significantly differant.

[Volrath]

I don't like cutting Mongoose, and Grim feels more like a SB card and my SB is already nice and tidy.

[DerFern]

What do you guys think about Pyroclasm main? I´ve played two main last weekend and loved them all day long so I decided to play the full set main. Right now my deck looks like this:

// Lands
2 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Fire/Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
4 Pyroclasm

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 Grim Lavamancer
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt

Pyroclasm is so good in so many matchups. It is a dead draw against ANT and Dredg (at least if those tokens got haste) but it kills Zoo, Merfolk, Goblins right at the spot.

[Jugglin]

Well, I've never had a direct need for Pyroclasm in most 1st games.
Your normal burnspells are usually enough against Merfolk and Goblins.
Also, losing Spell Snare means having fewer answers to opposing Tarmogoyfs, Counterbalance etc , which is normally a pretty bad thing.
Clasms in your SB are enough against matchups you should win anyway. (Sans Ichorid)

[santeria]

What do you guys think about Pyroclasm main?

I've seriously considered it, it would be good in my mostly all aggro meta. but I really dont know what I would cut. games 2/3 are the ones where I know which of my cards are dead cards and can side them out.

[undone]

What do you guys think about Pyroclasm main? I´ve played two main last weekend and loved them all day long so I decided to play the full set main. Right now my deck looks like this:

// Lands
2 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Fire/Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
4 Pyroclasm

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 Grim Lavamancer
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt

Pyroclasm is so good in so many matchups. It is a dead draw against ANT and Dredg (at least if those tokens got haste) but it kills Zoo, Merfolk, Goblins right at the spot.

-4 snare is pretty terrible. Just saying, It doesnt kill zoo because they play X/3s and 5/4s and goyf which you now cant counter barring force.

If you played clasm in the main it goes in the 2 clique/bounce slots, they are the only variable slots the deck actualy has.

[Wargoos]

-4 snare is pretty terrible.
2nd that.
I've also done some testings tell me whattcha think.
I wanted to add and combine the suggestions of undone,cenarius and goobafish and threw this list together

4 wasteland
4 trop. island
4 volc. island
4 scalding tarn
2 misty rainforest

4 mongoose
4 goyf

4 daze
4 force
4 spell snare
4 bolt
4 fire ice
4 stifle
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 pithing needle

side
1 p. needle
3 grim lavamang
3 spell pierce
1 krosan grip
4 redblast
3 submerge

[Volrath]

Seems solid, but why pithing needle main?

wouldn't you rather have force spike/bounce/predator/clique or something like that in that slot?

[Wargoos]

Seems solid, but why pithing needle main?

wouldn't you rather have force spike/bounce/predator/clique or something like that in that slot?
It's really a metagame call. Over here tribal is pretty much on the rise and those deck's tend to run vial which is one of the main targets. Also it shuts down annoying sdt's and other random control stuff like explosives. also you can still use it as a pseudostifle and name fetches. no1 else ll run tarns I guess.
also i needed sb space.

[undone]

Needle MD makes my eyes bleed

If you want tribal hate its more like 2 grip/predator (I hate predator but hes fine) needle is fine in the board (for some metagames) but in the main its just bad. I can like I said see 2 predator but I dont LIKE it grip would be something I would be more inclined to include if I thought that it was needed, thankfully Im 100% satisfied with clique, and while I would consider cutting one if another option was good enough (one threads comes to mind for some metagames)

[Wargoos]

Needle MD makes my eyes bleed

If you want tribal hate its more like 2 grip/predator (I hate predator but hes fine) needle is fine in the board (for some metagames) but in the main its just bad. I can like I said see 2 predator but I dont LIKE it grip would be something I would be more inclined to include if I thought that it was needed, thankfully Im 100% satisfied with clique, and while I would consider cutting one if another option was good enough (one threads comes to mind for some metagames)


Well, in my aggro meta I am not satisfied by clique. I just can't sleep peacefully running cc3 spells and am looking for substitutes - and needle was the only card I thought of being md-able.
Predator is a so-so card. For my regards, it's too clunky to maindeck.
Also as said, this configuration at least deserves some testing - I know most of the canadian players are balls to the walls - but hey, at least I'm testing cards you proposed even when I am not convinced by them on paper ;(

[undone]

Well, in my aggro meta I am not satisfied by clique. I just can't sleep peacefully running cc3 spells and am looking for substitutes - and needle was the only card I thought of being md-able.
Predator is a so-so card. For my regards, it's too clunky to maindeck.
Also as said, this configuration at least deserves some testing - I know most of the canadian players are balls to the walls - but hey, at least I'm testing cards you proposed even when I am not convinced by them on paper ;(

Wearbear is better than needle, Not that bear is terrible he just doesnt seem hot any more. Just saying. Play a gigantic green dude over needle if you really want to.

[gamegeek2]

Your meta is heavy aggro? MD Firespout or Pyroclasm.

[MULocke]

Your meta is heavy aggro? MD Firespout or Pyroclasm.

Ew. Play a lavamancer or an EE or something. Dead cards suck in this deck. You need every draw to be useful, because you're not drawing any cards (outside of the 4 recall... playing cards because you can BS them away just sucks).

[undone]

Ew. Play a lavamancer or an EE or something. Dead cards suck in this deck. You need every draw to be useful, because you're not drawing any cards (outside of the 4 recall... playing cards because you can BS them away just sucks).

Pretty much this, the cards playable in the bounce slots are pretty much

Vendillion clique (the one I like best)
Rushing river
Wipe away
EE
Lavamancer (as a 1 of)
Threads in an aggro metagame as not more than a 1 of in the main.

I highly recommend at least one vendillion clique in every metagame its good in all MU's even if it gets boarded out it swings for 3 which is pretty big. If your metagame is like infinate aggro you can play a threads if not EE will do fine.

[Cenarius]

Pretty much this, the cards playable in the bounce slots are pretty much

Vendillion clique (the one I like best)
Rushing river
Wipe away
EE
Lavamancer (as a 1 of)
Threads in an aggro metagame as not more than a 1 of in the main.

I highly recommend at least one vendillion clique in every metagame its good in all MU's even if it gets boarded out it swings for 3 which is pretty big. If your metagame is like infinate aggro you can play a threads if not EE will do fine.

Not mentioning Force Spike is like an insult to me. Force Spike also helps in an agro metagame. Counters creature, counters vial etc.

[TrialByFire]

Not mentioning Force Spike is like an insult to me. Force Spike also helps in an agro metagame. Counters creature, counters vial etc.

You just have a hard on for Force Spike huh? I swear you can't go one post without mentioning it.

[Bahamuth]

You just have a hard on for Force Spike huh? I swear you can't go one post without mentioning it.

At least his post is more usefull than this one. What exactly is the problem? We're trying to make people aware of how good Force Spike is. That's why he keeps repeating.

[miko]

I just top 4ed with a TempoProgHybrid-Deck in a 35+ tournament. That's the deck-list i played:


4 Noble Hierarch
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Progenitus
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
4 Nimble Mongoose

3 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
4 Tundra
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island

4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Natural Order
4 Stifle

Sideboard:
1 Rhox War Monk
2 Krosan Grip
1 Empyrial Archangel
4 Spell Pierce
2 Path to Exile
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Submerge

I played following match-ups:

rd1: Baseaeruption (UBG - using Ancestral Visions and Coatl)

I could attack his mana base during g1 and play around FOW till i could get a Progenitus online.
At the beginning of g2 i had a turn 3 Natural Order with FOW-backup and even got two Hierarchs to have a Spell Pierce-backup, too. Guess what I drew: Progenitus. So instead of winning early I lost due to card quality and card advantage that my op could build.
So i decided to cut the Pro-plan and play a straight tempo-oriented version instead. I got him down to 1 and he could stabilize again. Life totals: 17:1 => Time out was called.

0-0-1

rd2: Aggro-Goblins (MonoRed - a lot of burn and the new zen 2/2 haste - gobo)
G1 was won by mana denial. Two stifle for his two fetch-lands.
G2 was lost due to PoP and other burn.
G3 was won because of Rhox War Monk.

1-0-1

rd3: Survival-Elves
I lost both games because i do not have any mass-removal or other sources of card-advantage against that kind of deck.

1-1-1

rd4: Ultimate Walker

G1: I got lucky because of 3 Wastelands that took care of his manabase. 2 Nimbles could take it home for me.
G2: Another attack on his manabase. He kept a greedy hand consisting of one or two lands and a SDT. I wasted one of those lands and Spell Pierced his SDT that he used to draw an extra card. So gg.

2-1-1

rd5: Welder-Survival

I could win both games without any difficulties, because I could either attack his manabase or had answers to his threads (Welder, Thirst for Knowledge, ...). This was the first game in which Pridemage was relevant.

3-1-1

rd6: Zoo

I lost G1 and boarded in/out 11 cards. I decided to dismiss Pro and NO and added all removals as well as Spell Pierce to keep him from killing my Goyf or playing PoP. I'm not sure about that decision but i made it - and won. So:

4-1-1

I think it was 4th place - no Top8 was played out - and got the Blue-Red-Fetch.

Reconsidering my decklist i would want to ad the 4th Rhox and cut Archangel for the 3rd EE. I might want to cut the whole Pro-idea, too.

[Cenarius]

I just top 4ed with a TempoProgHybrid-Deck in a 35+ tournament. That's the deck-list i played:



I played following match-ups:

rd1: Baseaeruption (UBG - using Ancestral Visions and Coatl)

I could attack his mana base during g1 and play around FOW till i could get a Progenitus online.
At the beginning of g2 i had a turn 3 Natural Order with FOW-backup and even got two Hierarchs to have a Spell Pierce-backup, too. Guess what I drew: Progenitus. So instead of winning early I lost due to card quality and card advantage that my op could build.
So i decided to cut the Pro-plan and play a straight tempo-oriented version instead. I got him down to 1 and he could stabilize again. Life totals: 17:1 => Time out was called.

0-0-1

rd2: Aggro-Goblins (MonoRed - a lot of burn and the new zen 2/2 haste - gobo)
G1 was won by mana denial. Two stifle for his two fetch-lands.
G2 was lost due to PoP and other burn.
G3 was won because of Rhox War Monk.

1-0-1

rd3: Survival-Elves
I lost both games because i do not have any mass-removal or other sources of card-advantage against that kind of deck.

1-1-1

rd4: Ultimate Walker

G1: I got lucky because of 3 Wastelands that took care of his manabase. 2 Nimbles could take it home for me.
G2: Another attack on his manabase. He kept a greedy hand consisting of one or two lands and a SDT. I wasted one of those lands and Spell Pierced his SDT that he used to draw an extra card. So gg.

2-1-1

rd5: Welder-Survival

I could win both games without any difficulties, because I could either attack his manabase or had answers to his threads (Welder, Thirst for Knowledge, ...). This was the first game in which Pridemage was relevant.

3-1-1

rd6: Zoo

I lost G1 and boarded in/out 11 cards. I decided to dismiss Pro and NO and added all removals as well as Spell Pierce to keep him from killing my Goyf or playing PoP. I'm not sure about that decision but i made it - and won. So:

4-1-1

I think it was 4th place - no Top8 was played out - and got the Blue-Red-Fetch.

Reconsidering my decklist i would want to ad the 4th Rhox and cut Archangel for the 3rd EE. I might want to cut the whole Pro-idea, too.

First of all:

Congratulations with your result.

Second:

I don't think this deck really belongs in the Tempo Threshold list. It should belong in another thread called: Bant Agro. It may contain some simalarities with Tempo Threshold: Stifle, Wasteland and Mongoose. However, this deck completely works in a different way. Is there such a thread for Bant Agro?

Third:

"I might want to cut the whole Pro-idea, too" If you do: Put Cb/top in that build. Maybe you've heard about that idea, a lot. It's the best thing if you doubt.

[TrialByFire]

At least his post is more usefull than this one. What exactly is the problem? We're trying to make people aware of how good Force Spike is. That's why he keeps repeating.

I express my disagreement with the point that Force Spike is good. It is not. We know you like it. You don't have to keep telling us. The only time Force Spike is good is Game 1 (like Daze) and when you are playing against bad Legacy players who walk into it (like Daze). This is why if I was playing them I would side them out every SB game (like Daze, except you can keep Daze on the play because its free [not like Force Spike] barring special consideration)

Hence the reason why Force Spike is bad. Especially maindeck. Its been around since Legends, if it were good, people would play it. And they don't.

End of point.

EDIT: and just for reference SCG posted the Top 16 of the Legacy 5K and Tempo Thresh got 2nd. Stock bounce spell version with additional Pyroclasms in the board

[undone]

I tried to prove before that force spike was not playable (by simple T8 numbers) but it was of no avail.

Thats why I didnt mention it over clique lavamancer EE wipe away and RR.

Also @ the tempo prog list. I dont really think you can play 4 wastelands that intend to target your opponents lands and still run natural order -> prog, I could be wrong but while white tempo thresh is possible it just seems like bolt > swords in a tempo list, because tossing in stifle/waste doesnt automaticaly make your deck a tempo deck.

[Bahamuth]

I express my disagreement with the point that Force Spike is good. It is not. We know you like it. You don't have to keep telling us. The only time Force Spike is good is Game 1 (like Daze) and when you are playing against bad Legacy players who walk into it (like Daze). This is why if I was playing them I would side them out every SB game (like Daze, except you can keep Daze on the play because its free [not like Force Spike] barring special consideration)

My experience makes me disagree with you. As said before, many decks can't play around Daze/Spike while being subject to landdestruction. It almost never happens that an opponent doesn't cast a single spell in a game without tapping out.

Do you realise that Force Spiking pretty much anything can yield tempo advantage?


Hence the reason why Force Spike is bad. Especially maindeck. Its been around since Legends, if it were good, people would play it. And they don't.

Magic doesn't work this way. I remember a time, way after Coldsnap, where almost no Counterbalance decks were played.
I remember the first list of Fetchland Tendrills, which was legal since the printing of Top in Kamigawa, and which would've been much stronger than the current Tendrills Combo.
Or this deck. The first real tempo oriented build I remember was the UG Thresh that won GenCon a couple of years ago, when the cards it played had been legal for a long time.

You can't state that every card that isn't being ran isn't good. You can't state that a deck that reaches top 8 is instantly better than a deck that doesn't. You can't simply discard Force Spike because you belive others did, although they might not even have looked at it.

[MULocke]

My experience makes me disagree with you. As said before, many decks can't play around Daze/Spike while being subject to landdestruction. It almost never happens that an opponent doesn't cast a single spell in a game without tapping out.

Do you realise that Force Spiking pretty much anything can yield tempo advantage?



What does it tell you if they play around daze for 5 spells in a row then suddenly don't? They probably don't care about that spell resolving. This deck really doesn't need any more cards that make it worse on the draw.

[keys]

Wow this thread is derailed 24/7 by people arguing over Force Spike. It's a bad card, period. Until someone T8s with it, I remain unpersuaded.

[DragoFireheart]

Wow this thread is derailed 24/7 by people arguing over Force Spike. It's a bad card, period. Until someone T8s with it, I remain unpersuaded.

I agree. It's a poor mans Daze, but at least Spell Pierce is far harder to play around and still hits enough important targets to never be a truly dead draw. Not all decks run creatures (or run very few), but most decks run LOTs of non-creature spells that are game breaking.

[Bahamuth]

Wow this thread is derailed 24/7 by people arguing over Force Spike. It's a bad card, period. Until someone T8s with it, I remain unpersuaded.

I already made top 8 and top 4 with it. Are you convinced now? It doesn't mean anything.

But whatever, you can go ahead and discuss something else then.

[toni_a_salmi]

Hi folks, it has been a long time since I wrote last time so...lets change a
subject and talk about sideboarding. I have a huge tournament at the end of
this month and I have a problem to choose cards to SB and how should I
use sideboard. What to take off and what put in. My SB in last two
tournamenst was something like this:

2x Trygon Predator (stax, cbtop)
2x Krosan Grip (nought, artifacts, cb)
3x Red Elemental Blast (merfolk, blue decks on a draw)
4x Submerge (mirror, goofies, loam)
2x Pithing Needle (vials, factories, crypt, relics)
1x Pyroclasm (weenie, goblins)
1x EE (aggro, nought)

This SB worked very well but I had always problem with graveyard based
decks. Sure cause I didnt have gravehate at all but I thought it wasnt
needed that time. There is so rarely graveyard based decks like ichorid
or cephalid breakfast etc. so I chose to not use gravehate but now when
entomb is unbanned I think people will play more GY based decks and
ichorid is becoming very common here but im still little unsure should I
play gravehate cards. Do I really need those? Is there any other way to
win those decks...I think yes but I havent found that yet :D
I think merfolks, slivers and zoo will be very common so my sb looks in
no day something like this:

2x Krosan Grip
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Pyroblast
4x Submerge
2x EE
and 3 free slots

the whole problem is what cards are strong agains certain decks like
landstill, stax, cbtop, evagreen and dreaded decks? Is Disrupt really that
good card that you could play it in SB. Are pyroclasm needed or is EE
better than clasm? How about submerge vs mind harness or should I
play for example 3 sumnerge and couple harness? Is there some new
powerfull sideboarding stradegies? and so on..
Cause tempo thres has only 2 or 3 changeable slots which doesnt
really efect your deck so much I think it is more important to talk
about sideboarding and strategies. Hopefully someone has good tips
for my problem.

toni_a_salmi

edit. I was 2nd and 4th with deck where I did play 2 spikes in md but that doesnt mean anything, right? =)

[miko]

Spell Pierce is pretty good against decks like
landstill, stax, cbtop, evagreen because it shuts down a lot of keycards e. g. plainswalkers, too.

just give it a try.

[undone]

Spell Pierce is pretty good against decks like because it shuts down a lot of keycards e. g. plainswalkers, too.

just give it a try.

I agree, its great in metagames where this deck has hard matchups (landstill, stax, stompy, anything with COTV, and sui) im not sure if its good enough but it definately merits SB testing at the least.

[wolfstorm]

Just went 4-1-1 at PT Austin ending up as 7th (cut to top 4 w/ 53 for the lose?) this is the list I used.

Creatures
4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Grim Lavamancer

Spells
4x Force of Will
4x Spell Snare
4x Daze
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Stifle
4x Fire / Ice
4x Lightning Bolt

Lands
3x Flooded Strand
2x Wooded Foothills
1x Polluted Delta
4x Volcanic Island
4x Tropical Island
4x Wasteland

Sideboard
4x Submerge
4x Red Elemental Blast
2x Pithing Needle
2x Krosan Grip
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Disrupt

Grim was one of my MVP's at the tournament for me nuking confidants, merfolk's dudes/mutavault's, hypnotic spectre/shades as well as making sure my goyf would go through / beat there's in blocking.

Here's my Match ups and what I remember happening on them.

Round 1 The Rock (0-2)

Had to mulligan to 5 both games, the first one was close with him being at 2 when he got me, the second game I only draw lands :(

Round 2 Merfolk (2-0)

Game 1 a early grim lavamancer completely took the game over.
Game 2 Blast, Burn, lavamancer > Merfolk

Round 3 Weird top combo deck? (2-1)

Game 1 I rocked him having no idea what he was playing besides that it was some form of combo. I SB Disrupt / Blast
Game 2 Get him to 5 and he Combo's with his top. SB in Needle/Grip
Game 3 Turn 1 needle into scoop...

Round 4 Merfolk again! (1-1-1)

Game 1 I beat him by just controlling his dudes with bolt fire / ice and a lavamancer that lands mid game
Game 2 A Wake thresher resolves late game through a Vial with 2 of the merfolk in play that can make it unblockable... had him next turn
Game 3 Would of had him but we went to time the game ended with me at around 13-14 or so and him at 7 with a goyf and lavamancer facing down a empty field with 2 more goyf's in my hand. Only reason I didn't have him was b/c of Echoing truth on my Goyf's 2 turns in a row.

Round 5 Eva Green (2-1)

Game 1 Stifle / Waste + Dudes and snares on his goyf's bolts on his other dudes get there.
Game 2 I have a decent hand with 2 lands and a wasteland but ended up getting sink holed and wasted into oblivion.
Game 3 I have him on a tight clock, he finally gets down a goyf and confidant at 7 to slow me down and then flips a tombstalker for 8 on his next turn.

Round 6 Eva Green again.. (2-0)

Game 1 Spell snare, Stifle, Bolt > His deck
Game 2 Same as game 1 + Lavamancer killing all his shades/hypnotics/confidants & submerges/snare on goyf

[keys]

Round 3 Weird top combo deck? (2-1)

Game 1 I rocked him having no idea what he was playing besides that it was some form of combo. I SB Disrupt / Blast
Game 2 Get him to 5 and he Combo's with his top. SB in Needle/Grip
Game 3 Turn 1 needle into scoop...


DDFT? I'm curious what else this could be.

[wolfstorm]

DDFT? I'm curious what else this could be.

It was Helm of awakening + sensei's divining topx2 + storm spell... I considered it a bye after the round was over.. only reason he got me game 2 was I had no idea what he was trying to do till it was to late

[neon_havoc]

Has any one done any actual testing with spell pierce over disrupt in the side, if so what are your results and is it strictly better?

[lorddotm]

Has any one done any actual testing with spell pierce over disrupt in the side, if so what are your results and is it strictly better?

No, drawing crads is good.

That being said, it is pretty close. It really depends on your metagame, if you have a lot of Stax and Dragon Stompy, Spell Pierce is better. If you have faster decks like combo, Disrupt is better.

I personally like Disrupt better since I enjoy drawing cards.

What about Divert? Any opinions?

[Enigma]

I'm now up to 4x Spell pierce in my SB because of its really good versatility.

Yes Disrupt is good against Combo and Tourach.dec, but it's really narrow, as it doesn't do anything against stompy decks and is not so good against the new plainswalker decks. Spell pierce in those MU really shines because it hits everything (except for Dragon Stompy, where it does stop the most important: BM), and is still really good against Combo (vs. Chant, it's better than Disrupt).

P-M

[Atog]

No, drawing crads is good.

That being said, it is pretty close. It really depends on your metagame, if you have a lot of Stax and Dragon Stompy, Spell Pierce is better. If you have faster decks like combo, Disrupt is better.

I personally like Disrupt better since I enjoy drawing cards.

What about Divert? Any opinions?

I have tested Spell pierce little and so far it have been superior to disrupt. Just that "pay 2" is relevant often. And that hits troublesome artifacts, enchaments and planeswalkers is a huge bonus. Land 1st turn top? Spell pierce. Second turn counterbalance? Spell pierce. 4th/5th turn elspeth? Spell pierce. And so on.

I think we do not need Divert. Just because we can run Spell pierce in side. That is just more versatile than divert.

[lebarion]

Hi folks,
I've started playing this deck (standard Goobafish's list) a few weeks ago, and I'm really enjoying the deck. However, I've found that it is not so easy to pilot as I thought.
My problem is specifically with the Goblin matchup. Everybody seems to agree that Tempo Thresh is good against it, but I still couldn't found the strategy to win this match, specially without sideboard (I'm using 3 Piroclasm and 2 Needle in the side).
Any tips for this match, or for playing this deck in general?
Thanks!

[undone]

Hi folks,
I've started playing this deck (standard Goobafish's list) a few weeks ago, and I'm really enjoying the deck. However, I've found that it is not so easy to pilot as I thought.
My problem is specifically with the Goblin matchup. Everybody seems to agree that Tempo Thresh is good against it, but I still couldn't found the strategy to win this match, specially without sideboard (I'm using 3 Piroclasm and 2 Needle in the side).
Any tips for this match, or for playing this deck in general?
Thanks!

Ok, so heres the plan

Draw red spells
Draw green spells
Use brainstorms and ponders correctly
Draw more red spells
Draw more green spells
Draw stifles

They are pretty much toast to a goyf or two if you can stifle ringleaders. Fire needs to be a two for one, bolt should target lords if they play them, and force should be for that rare SGC and T1/2 vials.

All in all your deck is like 18 lands 8 cantrips 34 answers to lacky and other goblins. And the cantrips are used to find those remaining 34 spells ;)

If you start letting ringleader activations resolve however you better have 2+ goyfs on board or you will die that and SGC are the only cards that ever make this a difficult matchup and even than its the CITP effects more than thier bodies so stifle and force (if you stopped them from cheating into play) are important for those two.

[lebarion]

They are pretty much toast to a goyf or two if you can stifle ringleaders. Fire needs to be a two for one, bolt should target lords if they play them, and force should be for that rare SGC and T1/2 vials.


Thanks, this make a lot of sense.

One more question: how aggressive should I be? Do I send my Mongooses or Goyfs to be chump-blocked, or keep them in defense?

[Enigma]

You can't rarely give your creatures to chump block by the fact we only have 8 of them, and they are sometimes really hard to find. The only time I could see this being wrong is against Lackey or Confidant or being your only chances to survive. Nevertheless, double blocking with goose can be really good.

P-M

[Lance]

Hi there!

Today I was supposed to head Mtl for a bigger legacy event, but had a problem with my lift and I had to stay here (qc) for a smaller tourney.

24 players showed up and the meta was wide open:
* Eva Green / Rockish decks
* Burn
* Ichorid
* Pro BANT
* 43 Lands
* Pox
* Elves (aggro)
* Counter-top
* Affinity
* Planeswalkers Control

Heck, even a Battle of Wits' deck (kuddos, heh)!!

I opted for Canadian Threshold, as I don't play the deck often (second time only in tournament, first time also made top8)

Short story short, I went undefeated in swiss vs Burn 2 times and Counter-top, then made 2 draw (finished second overall).

In top 8 I defeated 2-0 Planewalkers Control, then one of the burn player I had already beat in swiss and I splitted in finals.

Not much to say, it was quite an easy day because I faced so many good matchups for the deck. I felt in control all day long. Bounce did save me in my second game vs Planewalkers Control when I bounced Humility for a final blow with double-threshed-gooses! heh, good times:laugh:

I had Enigma (P-M) side, but I choosed disrupt over the more versatile spell pierce, simply because burn, discard and combo is real threat here and I believe disrupt is stronger in those matchups. Don't know if you guys agree!!

Oh and i'm not sure about submerge in my meta, because we don't see much Thresh, Dreadstill or Loam here... except when i'm playing those:tongue:

[Muradin]

So how do you guys board against Goyf Sligh / Zoo?
So far I've taken out Stifle + Daze + Bounce on the draw for Submerge, Disrupt and Explosives / Pyroclasm with the standard build as I've seen this from a pretty good Canadian Threshold pilot. However I feel that sucks as land destruction is pretty strong because those decks run low land counts and are get pretty often screwed by just 1 Stifle + 1 Wasteland. What's your Sb plan?

And how would you board against It's the Fear? So far I've taken out some bounce, bolt, Firce/ Ice for Red Elemental Blast and Disrupt.

My main concern with this deck is that while I really enjoy playing it and it is very strong I simply proceed to lose against

A: Sensei's Divining Top

I force him if I can but I lose most games where my opponent can resolve one and we don't have many solutions for it.

B: Relic of Progenitus

Relic sucks as it is cheap, everybody can run it, it's flexible and shrinks our creatures. Do you have serious problems against those 2 cards as well or am I just doing something terribly wrong?

[Elf_Ascetic]

A: Sensei's Divining Top

I force him if I can but I lose most games where my opponent can resolve one and we don't have many solutions for it.

B: Relic of Progenitus

Relic sucks as it is cheap, everybody can run it, it's flexible and shrinks our creatures. Do you have serious problems against those 2 cards as well or am I just doing something terribly wrong?

People should run more Pithing Needle side, since it shuts down both.

[Adan]

So how do you guys board against Goyf Sligh / Zoo?
So far I've taken out Stifle + Daze + Bounce on the draw for Submerge, Disrupt and Explosives / Pyroclasm with the standard build as I've seen this from a pretty good Canadian Threshold pilot. However I feel that sucks as land destruction is pretty strong because those decks run low land counts and are get pretty often screwed by just 1 Stifle + 1 Wasteland. What's your Sb plan?

I usually take out the bouncespells and random singletons like 1 Wasteland, 1 Daze, 1 Stifle, 1 Ponder to make room for 4 Submerge and 2 EE/Clasm.
I somehow find Disrupts to be crap against Zoo-Aggro.


And how would you board against It's the Fear? So far I've taken out some bounce, bolt, Firce/ Ice for Red Elemental Blast and Disrupt.

Uhm... - 4 Bolts, -1 Rushing River, +4 REBs, +1 Krosan Grip.

Krosan Grip and Wipe Away are needed against Deed. Disrupts are fine, but I don't run them after they proved to be crap in Annecy.


My main concern with this deck is that while I really enjoy playing it and it is very strong I simply proceed to lose against

A: Sensei's Divining Top

I force him if I can but I lose most games where my opponent can resolve one and we don't have many solutions for it.

B: Relic of Progenitus

Relic sucks as it is cheap, everybody can run it, it's flexible and shrinks our creatures. Do you have serious problems against those 2 cards as well or am I just doing something terribly wrong?

Yes, these 2 cards are really a pain in the ass.

But Relic is quite situational, if the opponent plays it in the mid- or lategame where you already have Threshold it becomes pretty irrelevant because you can still Stifle or Wipe Away it (I won 2 Games in Annecy with that).

But yes, people should include Pithing Needles again. They are also versatile like hell and also good against a fuckload of other cards that may annoy you (although this decks can already defend itself quite well with Stifle against Deed/EE etc.).

[Muradin]

I usually take out the bouncespells and random singletons like 1 Wasteland, 1 Daze, 1 Stifle, 1 Ponder to make room for 4 Submerge and 2 EE/Clasm.
I somehow find Disrupts to be crap against Zoo-Aggro.



I already thought about taking out Force of Will against Zoo as it generates card disadvantage and we plan on winning a war of attrition in this matchup. I tend not to find myself at a low life total at all most games against zoo as we have a pretty strong early game already and thus can prevent them from doing a lot of damage with their fast critters by burning them or countering them.

[DragoFireheart]

My main concern with this deck is that while I really enjoy playing it and it is very strong I simply proceed to lose against

A: Sensei's Divining Top

I force him if I can but I lose most games where my opponent can resolve one and we don't have many solutions for it.

B: Relic of Progenitus



Pithing Needle in the board is the answer to both of these. Needle can also answer other problems like planeswalkers.

[Atog]

I have tested a little pithing needle in main, and it have been so far so good. There is almost always target for it. Usually there is target what is pain in ass when resolved (vial, deed, wasteland, sdt etc). I found that bounce isnt permanent answer for those, they could just play it again next turn. Of course card like vial, takes couple turn to ramp up counters, but still. Somebody will say that bounce answers troublesome enchaments and creatures but i still think that needle is better card in their slot, just because it's more versatile. It needs be tested more, but Caplan also thinked that needle could be better than bounces nowadays. But, just like him, i need to test needles more.

[Enigma]

A friend of mine just suggested to me to play Needle yesterday and was thinking about it. Let's try to look where it would shines:

I took the Metagame breakdown of Philly to look through the deck

Merfolk: +++
Against: Vial and mutavault

CB/TOP: ++++
Against: Top and E.E.

Landstill: ++++
Against: Starting by E.E. to anything (Top, PWs, Fetch, Decree...)

Goblins: ++
Against: Vial

Dredge: +
Against: Imp and Ceph. Col.

Belcher: +++
Against: Charbelcher

42 Lands: ++++
Against: Maze, Manlands, Ring...

Elves: +++
Against: Survival, Imperious Perfect

Survival: +++
Against: Survival and fetch

Dark depth: ++++
Against: Hexmage

Painter/Grindstone: ++++
Against: Grindstone and maybe top

Aggro-Loam: +
Against: E.E. and ... Cycling lands?

ANT: +/-
Against: Fetches (if they play DD, then it's really good against Top)

Where it doesnt do anything:

Mirror: ---
Bounces are way better.

TES: -
Bounces are blue cards at least

Eva Green: -
Bounces are way way way better (if they run top, it's more + than -)

Team America: +/-
Against: Fetch would be a good target, but bounces shines even more here.

Zoo: +/-
Against Fetches, maybe Jitte if you see it (because I would side them out post-board).


Regarding this, I think we can conclude that it's a card that need to be tested out intensely. I'll try it out tomorrow at our weekly tournament

P-M

[kabal]

CB/TOP: ++++
Against: Top, EE, Shackles and Academy Ruins

...


Not mention, good at stopping those post board Relics and/or Crypts which can occur in almost in MU.

[Atog]

A friend of mine just suggested to me to play Needle yesterday and was thinking about it. Let's try to look where it would shines:

I took the Metagame breakdown of Philly to look through the deck

Merfolk: +++
Against: Vial and mutavault

CB/TOP: ++++
Against: Top and E.E.

Landstill: ++++
Against: Starting by E.E. to anything (Top, PWs, Fetch, Decree...)

Goblins: ++
Against: Vial

Dredge: +
Against: Imp and Ceph. Col.

Belcher: +++
Against: Charbelcher

42 Lands: ++++
Against: Maze, Manlands, Ring...

Elves: +++
Against: Survival, Imperious Perfect

Survival: +++
Against: Survival and fetch

Dark depth: ++++
Against: Hexmage

Painter/Grindstone: ++++
Against: Grindstone and maybe top

Aggro-Loam: +
Against: E.E. and ... Cycling lands?

ANT: +/-
Against: Fetches (if they play DD, then it's really good against Top)

Where it doesnt do anything:

Mirror: ---
Bounces are way better.

TES: -
Bounces are blue cards at least

Eva Green: -
Bounces are way way way better (if they run top, it's more + than -)

Team America: +/-
Against: Fetch would be a good target, but bounces shines even more here.

Zoo: +/-
Against Fetches, maybe Jitte if you see it (because I would side them out post-board).


Regarding this, I think we can conclude that it's a card that need to be tested out intensely. I'll try it out tomorrow at our weekly tournament

P-M

Need to add couple more targets for these matchups:

Goblins:

SGC
Mutavault
(sharpshooter)
Gempalm Incinerator
And after sb maybe vexing shusher

Aggro loam:

Volrath's Stronghold
Wasteland
Seismic Assault

Zoo:

Grim lavamancer
Knight of the Reliquary

But in zoo matchup that won't do much, but neither will bounce. It could save your goyf sometimes but still.

[Cenarius]

Are we still disgussing Pithing Needle in Sideboard? Even after that list?

Got three in my sideboard, all the way.

[Enigma]

You guys are right, but it doesn't really change how the card does in those MUs (we knew it would be good against Goblins and CB/Top).

As for Aggroloam, I must say there is just nobody here playing this deck and I rarely test against this deck, but you are making good points here.

P-M

[SMR0079]

Interesting version that cut Goose/Snares for Grims/Coatls took 6th in a 300 man event over in Europe:

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1135

It looks teched out to beat Merfolk and Zoo, which seems like a good idea these days

I'm not sure about Coatl as a four of if at all, but I really like the Grims maindeck. They can easily play an aggro or control.

I've talked with several pros who have criticized Goose and wonder why it sees so much play in Legacy, not that they had much experience playing the deck, but their opinion is worth noting.

[Atog]

Interesting version that cut Goose/Snares for Grims/Coatls took 6th in a 300 man event over in Europe:

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1135

It looks teched out to beat Merfolk and Zoo, which seems like a good idea these days

I'm not sure about Coatl as a four of if at all, but I really like the Grims maindeck. They can easily play an aggro or control.

I've talked with several pros who have criticized Goose and wonder why it sees so much play in Legacy, not that they had much experience playing the deck, but their opinion is worth noting.

There was a discussion about lavamancer in tempo thresh couple pages ago. I'm still going to say same what i have sayed before: We don't need lavamancer. For merfolk, we already have 8 burn and from side we get 4x REB, pyroclasm and EE so we just don't need it. And for zoo matchup, their creatures are enough big that lavamancer won't hit them without L.bolt or fire/ice. And for zoo we get 4x submerge, pyroclasm and EE. That should be enough.

About goose, that may look small and easy to handle "it's just 1/1 with shroud, what that can do?". Oh well. Last tournament i beat sliver player with just one mongoose :) Opponent did show his and end of game and there was couple counter, 3x StoP and land.

[Humphrey]

what do u guys think about a random dreadnought?
i got one very cheap

[RogueMTG]

what do u guys think about a random dreadnought?
i got one very cheap

To be honest, that sounds pretty awful. It doesn't follow your game plan at all, it will most often be a dead card. What are you going to do, not stifle their fetch in the hopes that you draw into your 1x Dreadnought?

[Jedi Knight]

Whats everyones thought on Grim lavamancer...as a 3 slot in the board????
Just curioius...I have been testing it,and it seems extremely good.

[strife2]

I have never tried Lavamancer but it seems strange for me to play it in this deck because it becomes more difficult to get threshold for Mangoose, using Lavamancer's ability.

[DerFern]

I just saw this deck (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29301) on DeckCheck and wondered if Burning-Tree Shaman (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/105.html) could be an option for the Clique/Bounce Slots. It i such a strong card in those matchups that are quite hard for TT, it fits into our mana base and is 3/4 for 1RG -without evasion- which is quite okay.
Any experiences? I gues I'll test him... just fell in love :)

edit:
Burning-Tree Shaman

Creature - Centaur Shaman 3/4, 1RG (3)
Whenever a player activates an ability that isn't a mana ability, Burning-Tree Shaman deals 1 damage to that player.1

[Humphrey]

BTS is not that bad, but it damages urself too (fetchlands). My Creaturebase is
4Mongo, 4 Goyf, 2 Ty-Predator. I think thats the strongest Critterbase u can run.

[Gibsonmac]

BTS is not that bad, but it damages urself too (fetchlands). My Creaturebase is
4Mongo, 4 Goyf, 2 Ty-Predator. I think thats the strongest Critterbase u can run.

What about V. Clique?

[Muradin]

Whether you are running Clique or Predator in those slots depends totally on the matchups you expect. Dreadstill, Enchantress, random artifacts... get owned pretty hard by predator while I prefer Clique because it better fits into this decks strategy because it can be played as an instant, is disruptive and has a higher power than Predator, thus is more agressive.

[toni_a_salmi]

Hi folks,

I have a nig event in next weekend and I'd like to talk about which cards
are good in sideboard agains certain decks. Right now my SB looks like this:

2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Pyroblast
4x Submerge
2x Krosan Grip
2x Engineered Explosives
3x Disrupt

I think there will be lot of merfolks, zoo, and dredge decks but sure
I have to prepare to face tier decks like mirror and ANT. Im not quite
sure is this SB really good enough but in test games it worked fine for
me. My sideboard stradegies are: (if you have better ideas, plz tell me :D )

Merfolks: + 2x Reb (folks, counters)
+ 2x blast (folks, counters)
+ 2x Engineered Explosives (folks, crypt, relic)
(+ Xx Submerge, if they play goofies)

- 4x daze (on draw)
- 2x bounce (think EE is better)
- Xx random ones (stifle, spellsnare etc.)

Zoo: + 4x Submerge (goofies, cats)
+ 2x EE (apes, figures, cats, lavamancers)

- 4x Stifle (manadenial is not the best stradegy)
- 1x Daze
- 1x Wipe Away

ANT + 2x ReB (tutors, BS)
+ 2x blast (same)
+ 3x Disrupt (same)
(+ Xx EE, im not quite sure about these)

- 4x Fire/ice
- 2x bounce
- 1x daze (better ideas)

Dredge + 2x EE (tokens)
+ 3x Disrupt (breakthrought, cabals)

I think this match wont be favourable for me even I could have
crypts in SB. You really have to play fast and use counters
agains breaks and therapies, stiflles for coliseum and nacroes.
Do you have better gameplan ideas?

Mirror + 2x ReB
+ 2x blast
+ 4x Submerge
+ 3x disrupt
+ 2x EE (do I need these?)

- 2x bounce
- 4x fire/ice
- 2x Daze (should I take all 4?)
- Xx randoms which are? :D

...gotta go to work now. Plz if you have better sb stradegies or
stradegies agains certain deck wrote about it. I think we dont need
talk about which 2 cards we should put to deck for these 2 free slots.
Everyone knows there are few relevant choises.

[Atog]

Hi folks,
...


Good luck for champs! I would switch disrupts to spell pierces and maybe -1x EE for +1x pyroclasm. Pyroclasm works too against dredge, but is better against certain tribal decks, like goblin and elf.

[Elf_Ascetic]

Hi folks,

I have a nig event in next weekend and I'd like to talk about which cards
are good in sideboard agains certain decks. Right now my SB looks like this:

2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Pyroblast
4x Submerge
2x Krosan Grip
2x Engineered Explosives
3x Disrupt


When expecting dredge, you should run some Tormods Crypts. At least 2, instead of 2 Submerges.

[Humphrey]

Whether you are running Clique or Predator in those slots depends totally on the matchups you expect. Dreadstill, Enchantress, random artifacts... get owned pretty hard by predator while I prefer Clique because it better fits into this decks strategy because it can be played as an instant, is disruptive and has a higher power than Predator, thus is more agressive.

I prefer Predator main, because of the versatility. It kills CB, Moat, Vial, Survival and so many nasty things, I dont wanna miss it. Sometimes its ur only out.

[Genericcactus]

Zoo: + 4x Submerge (goofies, cats)
+ 2x EE (apes, figures, cats, lavamancers)

- 4x Stifle (manadenial is not the best stradegy)
- 1x Daze
- 1x Wipe Away

How do we beat zoo without mana denial? EE helps, but if they aren't a scrub, the best you'll get is a 2 for 1. Denial allows us to get some early beats with goyf, and then hopefully either burn them out, or find a way to punch through the last few points of damage with Ice. I don't think we just want to be a control deck in this matchup. Zoo beats control decks.

[toni_a_salmi]

Good luck for champs! I would switch disrupts to spell pierces and
maybe -1x EE for +1x pyroclasm. Pyroclasm works too against dredge, but is
better against certain tribal decks, like goblin and elf.

Thx, are you coming?? Im not quite sure about Spell Pierce. It would be
nice card and yes it hits first turn vial and second turn cb but is that really
so cool? I do have daze and FoW for first turn spells. I heard that Spell snare
hits cb too. Spell Pierce would be good card agains certain decks but drawing
a card is great in disrupt and I think it is great thing agains combodecks that
you have counters all the time.
Switching one EE to pyroclams sound good but I have to think about it.
I've prepaired my sb agains merfoks, cbtop, stax and mirror and pyroclams
doesnt help you agains those decks.


When expecting dredge, you should run some Tormods Crypts.
At least 2, instead of 2 Submerges.

I think 2 Tormod's Crypts wont help you enough and you dont wanna
take Submerges out from SB. I think Ill face more Goofies than dredge decks.


How do we beat zoo without mana denial? EE helps, but if they aren't a
scrub, the best you'll get is a 2 for 1. Denial allows us to get some early
beats with goyf, and then hopefully either burn them out, or find a way to
punch through the last few points of damage with Ice. I don't think we just
want to be a control deck in this matchup. Zoo beats control decks.

well I am not quite sure about taking out all 4 stifles but we do have
4x bolts, 4x fire/ice, 4 submerges, buch of counters, goofies and EEs.
So I think it should be enough. Even we take out stifles we do have
wastelands and if you use submerge responce fetching it is like spot
removal.
I played agains two zoo/aggro decks in last tournament and I didnt
have problems even I took out stifles. I dunno maybe youre right and
I should take out something else but what? You dont wanna take out
burn, you dont wanna take out rivers..it is like 2 for 1. You dont wanna
take out counters and you need lands :D so there is stifles or random
1 offs.

[Atog]

Thx, are you coming?? Im not quite sure about Spell Pierce. It would be
nice card and yes it hits first turn vial and second turn cb but is that really
so cool? I do have daze and FoW for first turn spells. I heard that Spell snare
hits cb too. Spell Pierce would be good card agains certain decks but drawing
a card is great in disrupt and I think it is great thing agains combodecks that
you have counters all the time.
Switching one EE to pyroclams sound good but I have to think about it.
I've prepaired my sb agains merfoks, cbtop, stax and mirror and pyroclams
doesnt help you agains those decks.


Spell pierce helps against stax too, in fact disrupt won't do nothing against stax and enchantress, but pierce will. And i won't get to champs :/ That would be too expensive trip :/

ps. Asun joensuussa joten juna matkoista tulis jo +100€ niin ei kiitos.

[Humphrey]

Id like to fit in 2 Peedles main, but im not sure what to take out. I play 2 predators main too, do u think thats overload? because needle and predator are often have same targets.

my list atm:
// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [R] Tropical Island
4 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Island (1)
1 [P3] Forest (2)
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
2 [DIS] Trygon Predator

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DD2] Daze
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [CST] Brainstorm
3 [M10] Ponder
3 [M10] Lightning Bolt
4 [FNM] Fire/Ice
2 [SOK] Pithing Needle

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NE] Submerge
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [CFX] Volcanic Fallout
SB: 2 [PT] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [B] Red Elemental Blast

not sure about spellpierce over reb, too

advises?

[Cenarius]

There is enough to discuss. Personally I'm playing a kinda weird sideboard, since I belief there are no better options for my metagame.

2 Pyroclasm
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Submerge
3 Pyroblast
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Spell Pierce

There are several things to keep in mind. Ichorid and Reanimator are kind of getting popular here, the amount of countertop/tombstalkers/dreadstill decks are in decline and a lot of Merfolk/Zoo/Rock decks are present. The rest is just similar to everwhere else. There are always Enchantress/staxx etc. decks, but do we have to keep them in mind? I don't belief that's the right thing to do.
My board looks terrible at first glance, but I think the more experienced players of Tempo Threshold will love it. Simply because it is so diverse. For example:

Merfolk

+3 Pyroblast
+3 Pithing Needle
+2 Pyroclasm
+1 Vendillion Clique

Rock

+1 Vendillion Clique
+2 Submerge
+2/3 Pithing Needle (Depends on how many tops/deeds/Stronghold etc.)

Ichorid

+2 Pyroclasm
+2 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Spell Pierce
+3 Pithing Needle
(well you can practically board nearly whole your sideboard)

Reanimator

+2 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Spell Pierce
(maybe +3 Pyroblast when they play U/B and/or Submerge IF they play green)

Anyway,

Let me first disguss some of the cards in my Sideboard. Why do I play 2's and not 4's etc.
Why am I playing 2 Submerge? That could be the first answer you might come up with. Well it's simple to me. I don't belief submerge is really that good. Why, you might say? Against good players, it's bad. Against mediocre players, it's mediocre to good. Against bad players, they rock. If you want the full explanation, PM me. Keeping that in mind, my metagame just not support it , as a 4-off, that well. Why don't I play Mind Harness then? Well I belief my other sideboard cards are better than Mind Harness.
Why do I play 1 Vendillion Clique? Well my creature base is only 8. I'm playing the 3 Force Spike list and I was looking at a creature that was diverse. I found out that Vendillion Clique was great Mainboard, when I had 3/4 lands in play, and at testing it was great against Rock, Landstill, Mirror and Merfolk. This means that it helps against frequent-played decks, which is kinda what I need.
Why do I play Spell Pierce over Disrupt? Well not only is Spell Pierce your #5 and #6 hardcounter against Chant. I mean, COMMON!, they can't pay (2). If they can, you're screwed anyway. By any means. You probably made horrible mistakes. Spell Pierce is better against Countertop, Staxx (although: Care?) etc. It just feels like it belongs in the sideboard.
Another question that might pop up: why do I play Pithing Needle? I belief this card should belong in every sideboard. I think the previous post already discribed it enough to skip my reasoning. It's just so good against any form of threat, like: Relic, Vial, Top, Survival, EE, Deed, Elspeth, Factory, Wasteland etc.
Finally, why do I play 2's and not 4's? Well, my sideboard only contains about 15 cards. Meaning, I can't play all the cards I want. However, there is more than meets the eye (quote). Playing 2's means you won't get easily your 2nd T Crypt or any other card you sideboarded, which you don't need at that special moment. It could also be seen as a disadvantage. I personally belief it's an advantage. Tempo Threshold has so many 50/50 matchups, you shouldn't change too much about the deck (especially against Merfolk or something else ofcourse that is played frequently).

Then, some other things.

@ Humphrey. I would advise not to play Pithing Needle Mainboard. Just play them sideboard. Counter Sensei's Divining Top, Aether Vial etc. by any means necessary. Just put 2 or 3 copies of them in your sideboard and you're fine.
@ Atog. ps. Asun joensuussa joten juna matkoista tulis jo +100€ niin ei kiitos. WTF!?, what does it mean ^^?
@ toni_a_salmi. Still play FS? Don't board out Stifle. Their manabase (if 5c for Tribal Flames) is vulnerable. You prefer them to be stuck at 1-2 lands then having enough mana to burn you from 15 to 0 in one turn. Trust me. I'm not sure whether Submerge > Burn at that matchup. Every creature is in burn range meaning you can get rid of creatures forever instead of hoping that they won't draw them again if they fetched. If they didn't fetch, you're simply stuck again (in most situations). You can also put a lot of pressure on them if you have bolt's.

"Dredge + 2x EE (tokens)
+ 3x Disrupt (breakthrought, cabals)

I think this match wont be favourable for me even I could have
crypts in SB. You really have to play fast and use counters
agains breaks and therapies, stiflles for coliseum and nacroes.
Do you have better gameplan ideas? "

This matchup is better than you might think. Although I haven't tested it that much lately I can tell something about it. First: Stifle can also target Ichorid too.
Second, You'll need a good hand and you need them to mulligan. This will come up more frequent than you might think. Bluff that you play ANT or DDANT or something like that. They need risky hands to win, making them vulnerable to 1/2 counters. Focus all your counters on their first and second turn discard/draw spells. Put up an early Goyf, which becomes 6/7 easily. Last tournament I played against Dredge (2-1), having 2 weird games in a row. First game, he fizzled or something like that. Mulled to 6, because I bluffed. Keeping a terrible hand against TT. Second game, I tricked him with Pyroclasm (vs unanswered imp) into Tcrypt. Then my deck fizzled due to not drawing a single creature. Died thanks to 2 Zombie-Tokens and 1 Thug :D. Third game won because I had to important Stifle's: the first on his Nacromoeba, the second on last hope: his Ichorid. You might think these games are totally random. The matchup is totally random, play tight and you'll win.

@ DerFern. BTS is not good enough anymore for TT. It has been played, but there are just bigger/better creatures for that manacost.
@ About the Random Dreadnought. If stifle #2 comes out. My creature base will be so much easier ^^. BAM 3/4 Dreadnoughts instead of the weak one's.

Finally, to all of you. I'm tired. Good night.

[Atog]

@ Atog. ps. Asun joensuussa joten juna matkoista tulis jo +100€ niin ei kiitos. WTF!?, what does it mean ^^?


It's finnish and means "don't wanna pay that much to get playing magic" :) Actually it don't but thats the point.

[strife2]

my list atm:
// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [R] Tropical Island
4 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Island (1)
1 [P3] Forest (2)
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
2 [DIS] Trygon Predator

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DD2] Daze
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [CST] Brainstorm
3 [M10] Ponder
3 [M10] Lightning Bolt
4 [FNM] Fire/Ice
2 [SOK] Pithing Needle

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NE] Submerge
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [CFX] Volcanic Fallout
SB: 2 [PT] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [B] Red Elemental Blast

advises?

About your mana base, why don't you run 4 Misty Rainforest instead of Wooded Foothills ? And what about the Forest ? Have you already faced color-death because of it ?
And I don't understand why you prefer 4 Volc/ 3 Trop instead of 4 Trop/ 3 Volc, especially if you run 10 cards that need Green and only 7 card that need Red.

[firstshot]

with his list it makes sense for him to have 3 trop and 4 volcanic because he has the basic forest. Even though all his fetchs should be be able to find the basic.

[Humphrey]

with his list it makes sense for him to have 3 trop and 4 volcanic because he has the basic forest. Even though all his fetchs should be be able to find the basic.

I dont have 4 Rainforest atm. but sure, thatll be the best.
i prefer having basics , because of moons and pte

[santeria]

pte is a real pain with this deck, especially with zoo, as Im usually using my counters on their burn, goyfs or thoctars.

[undone]

Ok guys let me explain adding basics.

You cannot change the 18 standard lands in this deck (well 6 fetches that are wooded foothills or U) so its 6 fetches 8 duals and 4 waste, that said if you want to add a basic island or forest you cut the 2 extra slots for them (the clique/bounce/lavamancer slot)

So if you want to play 1 basic you need to play 19 lands, 2 basics 20 lands. You cannot cut duals because the reasont this deck is so good is its consistency and lowering it hurts the decks overall performace.

[strife2]

Ok guys let me explain adding basics.

You cannot change the 18 standard lands in this deck (well 6 fetches that are wooded foothills or U) so its 6 fetches 8 duals and 4 waste, that said if you want to add a basic island or forest you cut the 2 extra slots for them (the clique/bounce/lavamancer slot)

So if you want to play 1 basic you need to play 19 lands, 2 basics 20 lands. You cannot cut duals because the reasont this deck is so good is its consistency and lowering it hurts the decks overall performace.


I don't agree : I'm playing that list atm :

// Lands
3 [B] Volcanic Island
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [US] Island (3)
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
4 [BD] Lightning Bolt
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AP] Fire/Ice
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [LRW] Ponder
2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [NE] Submerge
SB: 3 [7E] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [OV] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [4E] Red Elemental Blast


And it really works. I think that running a Forest is impossible (especially when you play Clique) but an Island instead of a Volc is not really problematic.
I'm also testing the split 2 Snare/2 Spell Pierce but I need more test to give an opinion.

About my sideback, I'm thinking of Ravenous Trap instead of Tormod, what do you think about it ?

Ravenous Trap 2BB

If an opponent had three or more cards put into his or her graveyard from anywhere this turn, you may pay {o0} rather than pay Ravenous Trap’s mana cost.Exile all cards from target player’s graveyard.

[Humphrey]

The thing with forest is, u absolutely need it. U cant get rid of BMoon without it, u cant even play one threat without G. Its another absolutely weak point, if someone extirpates ur Tropicals or removes them with Squads or just kill them with (recurring) Wastelands.
Sure, if u open a hand with just a forest, it sucks, but how often u wanna keep that hand anyway

[RogueMTG]

...
About my sideback, I'm thinking of Ravenous Trap instead of Tormod, what do you think about it ?
...

I think you're probably better off with Tormod's. Ravenous Trap is vulnerable to Therapies while Tormod's can hang out in play. Granted, Trap doesn't get hit by Pithing Needle... I guess depends if you're more worried about hand disruption or them siding needle in against you? Probably some kind of mix is best if you're really worried about hating on the graveyard versus Ichorid specifically, but Tormod's at least has applications in other match-ups.

[Enigma]

If you want to devote those slots to the Dredge MU, I'd choose Ravenous Trap over Tormod's for few reasons:

1. If they bring anti-hate, it will be in the form of Grudge/COV/Needle, or maybe FOW (which does the same thing, Crypt or Trap).
So you better have something that invalid their anti-hate.

2. While they can play around Tormod's, if haven`t seen the trap yet, you can catch them while they are trying to combo off.

3. All the anti-hate (Cabal Therapy, Unmask, FOW) against Trap are spells that are easily disruptable by cards you are bringing in post-board: Spell pierce, FOW, Daze.

And these thoughts comes from serious testings against a good LED list/player.

BTW: I think you should go up to 3 or 4 traps if you really want to battle this MU properly.

P-M

[chokin]

I picked up this deck for the first sanctioned Legacy event in over a year. Chopped 1st and 2nd with an ID.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=396574#post396574

I've forgotten some details, as I didn't take notes. I did make some mistakes sideboarding, as I got way too excited to be doing as well as I did. I really wanted to face the ANT player instead of my buddy, Kyle M. Oh well though.

[Purgatory]

Hey guys, I just started playing this deck after playing Birdshit (UGw Thresh) in Vintage for a few years and playing CounterSlivers in Legacy for a while, and I need some help in playing it properly. I play the standard UGr version, but I don't have any Goyfs yet, so I replaced them with Werebear and other lol creatures for the time being.

I attended a larger (60+) sanctioned tournament this weekend and ended up losing in round 2 against Burn, a matchup I thought was supposed to be good for this deck. I won the first game after he got me down to 4, but I managed to counter the important burnspells and a Mongoose went all the way. After that, he sided in about a million Red Elemental Blasts and Pyroblasts and kept countering my counterspells while I fervently dug through my deck with Brainstorm and Ponder, to find a creature. His life total in the second game was 17 (from a single Lightning Bolt I aimed at his head) when I died and in the third 19 (a single fetchland). In the third game, however, he drew three PoPs in a row, and I only had two Spell Snares.

I have no way of finding out the player's list, since he didn't T8 either, but from what I saw it seemed like it was the standard burn lists found in that thread.

The whole mana-denial strategy of my deck failed as he played mostly basic Mountains and very few fetchlands, so all my Stifles and Wastelands were more or less dead cards. I found that with only 8 creatures in the deck, I couldn't keep up, simply. I appreciate any and all tips that people might have in this matchup.

[Skiller]

Ben Wienburg finishend second at the Legacy Championship 2009 with the following list:

Maindeck:

Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Fire / Ice
4 Force Of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

Sorceries
4 Ponder

Lands

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:

1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Trygon Predator
2 Krosan Grip
4 Pyroblast
4 Submerge
2 Pyroclasm

He answered some question to the deck at Starcitygames com: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/18018_Legacys_Allure_Canadian_Threshold_With_Ben_Wienburg.html
As he is the most successful "Canadian Threshold" - player at the moment, I think we should discuss how to sideboard against the most common matchups with his deck list and sideboard.

[toni_a_salmi]

Hi folk,

I finally finished Finnish Legacy Champs and I was 24th (thats sad). There was 89 participant and tournament was awesome. I played Caplan's list and made sideboard agains
zoo, folks, mirror and ANT. This was my SB:

2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Pyroblast
2x EE
2x Krosan Grip
4x Submerge
3x Disrupt


We played 7 rounds swiss and here is short coverage of each match.

1st round (bw rogue)

Opponent didnt play anything and this was simple match. 1-0

2nd round (supreme blue)

I won first game with couple of goofies and counter all stops and
his critters. Second game was so long. We both tried play spells but
both had counters. I was almost losing but opponent used fetch and
I respond with Submerge to Goofie. Time run out and second game
ended tie. 2-0

3rd round (UG painter)

I lose first game couse I didnt draw burnspell to painter and spell
snare didnt hit stone. In second game I had same problem he had stone
on table cats painter and wont counterwar. I didnt had burn or krosan
but I had Rushing river but only 2 lands so I had to topdeck burn, land,
brainstorm, ponder or even stifle could help one turn but no. Sometimes
you just draw shit like spell snare after opponent already played
painter:D I lose match agains painter and I really couldnt
believe that :D Day before I played over 10 matches agains painter and
I lose zero match and now when you have to just run over you dont
find right cards. 2-1

4th round (UWb fish)

Opponent didnt play anything special. I saw some confidants, mages
and brainstorms. This was easy match. 3-1

5th round (Ur dreadstill)

Opponent was one of the top players of legacy in Finland so I
expect match could be hard. First game I won with goose.In second
game I had in my opening hand stifle, blast, wasteland, fetch, ponder,
disrupt and daze so I kept it. Opponent did mulligan to 5 and started
with mishra. I fetched and expect opponent playind land and standstill
but he didnt have another land so I knew this was my match.
I destroied his lands with wastelands, stoped fetchinf with stifle and
countered cantrips with disrupt and blast. Finally I got a creature and
run over. 4-1

6th round (affinity)

This was important match 'n' I had to win if I wanna get in top8.
I started game with tropical island countered his "drum". I played
second, third, fourth and fifth turn wasteland and I was quite sure
he wont get enought mana anymore but no! I was so wrong and
I lose game one. In second game my opponent had 4 lifes, I had
fire/ice in my hand but I didnt find a second bolt even I played
3 brainstorms and ponder. That was so unbelievable. That was one
of the hardest matches ever. I really enjoy even I lose and my
chance to get in top8 felt down to 2% or something :D 4-2

7th round (bant aggro)

I lose first game cause I did mistake and played goofie to daze
(only card in opponent's hand) and he topdecks 2 goofies and I
didnt have answer for both. Second game was quite long but
noble and goofie is better than my goofie so I lost. 4-3


Tournament was awesome and it was nice that there was so many
people around of Finland. I was little disapointed my record but
sometimes there is so bad luck that it really doesnt matter if you
play right. (as you know there is luck too in this game) :tongue:
I will test deck little more and I think I will play predators in
sb or even in md one cause it is so good card agains so many decks
like cbtops, decks with noughts, affinity... Blasts, submerges and
grips where awesome in SB but I wasnt able to play disrupts cause
I sideboard them in only once and opponent didnt play anything.

There will be a next tournament in end of the month so
hopefully we keep talking more about relevant sideboard cards and
stradegies especially now when new kind of decks wins tournaments
and people can get that basic land little easier (cause of new fetches).

[strife2]

There is the GP Paris next week and I will do a coverage of the Side event Legacy.

[santeria]

I attended a larger (60+) sanctioned tournament this weekend and ended up losing in round 2 against Burn.

if you dont get a mongoose or a beefy goyf fast enough, it can be hard to race them. for random tournaments like that BEB is always my super secret tech. it completely douched burn at the last event I played at.

[miko]

Hi folk,

This was my SB:

2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Pyroblast
2x EE
2x Krosan Grip
4x Submerge
3x Disrupt


So you still stick to Disrupt? As you experienced it was not as good as you hoped it would be. Do you think Spell Pierce would be an alternative?

[strife2]

Spell Pierce is really Better than Disrupt. Indeed, it's quite easy to turn around Daze or Disrupt by keeping one mana open, but turning around Spell Pierce is more difficult. Furthermore, Spell pierce can counter every non-creature spell and this argument suffice to prefer it than Disrupt, don't care about the cantrip effect.

[toni_a_salmi]

So you still stick to Disrupt? As you experienced it was not as good as you hoped it would be. Do you think Spell Pierce would be an alternative?

I didnt say disrupts were bad cards I did sideboard them only once so
my experience was quite weak. I think disrupt is good card agains
combodecks and in mirror match but unfortunately I didnt face them.

Well Spell Pierce could be good card but I like that you can counter
and draw a card.

[FoulQ]

To those of you playing spell pierce/disrupt: Has a split of some sort ever been brought up? Your opponent might see one and expect and then you bam them with the other. That might be kind of cool. Just wondering if anybody has tested this.

[Purgatory]

if you dont get a mongoose or a beefy goyf fast enough, it can be hard to race them. for random tournaments like that BEB is always my super secret tech. it completely douched burn at the last event I played at.

Right, but I don't want to lose valuable sideboard slots to a deck that I won't run into that much and will rarely see T8 play. I guess the same could be said for Ichorid, but then again the Crypt and Relic in my SB can be used in other games. I think BEB is wasted unless you expect a metagame that's absolutely full of Goblins, Burn and Sligh. Also, wouldn't you need at least 3 in the board to make sure that you draw them in games 2 and 3?

In any case, I'd love some more input on the matchup.

[kabal]

In any case, I'd love some more input on the matchup.

Why not have 3 - 4 Spell Pierces in your board.

[Enigma]

To those of you playing spell pierce/disrupt: Has a split of some sort ever been brought up? Your opponent might see one and expect and then you bam them with the other. That might be kind of cool. Just wondering if anybody has tested this.

Well, it doesn`t look like a good idea, as Disrupt is only good in certain MU and Spell pierce is good against a larger variety of decks. It works to side-in the 2/2 package in game you would board in 4 disrupt, but not necessarily does in the game you would board in 4 Spell pierce. An exemple would be against Stax: You would have 2 cards to side in instead of 4, but would still have 4 cards to enter against Tendrils.

For me, the Spell pierce choice is pretty obvious,

4 of.

P-M

[quicksilver]

Right, but I don't want to lose valuable sideboard slots to a deck that I won't run into that much and will rarely see T8 play. I guess the same could be said for Ichorid, but then again the Crypt and Relic in my SB can be used in other games. I think BEB is wasted unless you expect a metagame that's absolutely full of Goblins, Burn and Sligh. Also, wouldn't you need at least 3 in the board to make sure that you draw them in games 2 and 3?

In any case, I'd love some more input on the matchup.

BEB is also great against zoo, which is very popular.

[Purgatory]

Why not have 3 - 4 Spell Pierces in your board.

Boy, do I feel thick. Spell Pierce is a great side-board option against those decks, and it's more versatile than BEB. I'm going to try it out as soon as possible.

[santeria]

Spell Pierce is ... more versatile than BEB.

almost.

spell pierce doesnt hit creatures and it functions only as a counterspell.

BEB functions as a counterspell and removal. spending U on a top decked BEB to take out a 5/4 thoctar you were unable to counter previously, is nice.

[TrialByFire]

almost.

spell pierce doesnt hit creatures and it functions only as a counterspell.

BEB functions as a counterspell and removal. spending U on a top decked BEB to take out a 5/4 thoctar you were unable to counter previously, is nice.

And it kills Vexing Shusher so you can save Bolts for Nacatls or whatever

[strife2]

I'm preparing the Side-event of the GP Paris (100+ players expected) and I'm wondering what is the best SB for a big event like that :

// Lands
4 [B] Volcanic Island
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [U] Tropical Island

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
4 [BD] Lightning Bolt
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AP] Fire/Ice
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [LRW] Ponder
2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt (Voracious Trap instead ?)
SB: 4 [NE] Submerge
SB: 3 [7E] Pyroclasm (Firespoot ?)
SB: 1 [OV] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [DIS] Trygon Predator (Krosan Grip ?)

I'm expecting lots of Dredge, Goblin and Thresh/CB.deck. What do think of my SB ? I think it's quite versatile :
-3 Tormod's Crypt : against Ichorid, Eternal Garden, Reanimator, Aggro Loam ? In short all MU based on graveyard. I'll try Voracious trap maybe, to see if it's better.
-4 Submerge : against all decks with green
-3 Pyroclasm : against tribal decks, Ichorid etc. but I've never tested Firespoot so I don't know if it's worst ou better.
-3 REB like : against all blue deck.
-2 Trygon Predator : against CB.deck, Stax, Affinity etc.

I'll give my Siding Table later.
If you want to test on MWS => PM.

[sauce]

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29274

This is the list I would probably play if I had to play Canadian Thresh at a tournament.
Edit: Maindeck lands should be: -1 Wooded -1 Polluted Delta -2 Flooded strand +3 Misty Rainforest +1 Volcanic Island.
The sideboard is sound as well although I would try -2 Disrupt +2 Spell pierce in it.

[jandax]

Is Scalding Tarn not as good? Just curious.

[santeria]

I'm wondering what is the best SB for a big event:



x3 pithing needle
x3 pyroclasm
x3 REB
x2 spell pierce
x2 BEB
x2 EE

[DragoFireheart]

Is Pyroclasm enough for tribal decks like goblins and merfolk with the increase in the number of lords?

[Raptor]

Is Pyroclasm enough for tribal decks like goblins and merfolk with the increase in the number of lords?

From my testing, it is enough.
You shouldn't run firespout for the single reasons that it kills your own mongoose.

Vs goblins; You can take care of their lords with daze / force (assuming that they don't have vial) or you keep your bolt / fire and ice for the lords.

Also, even if they have a lord, if you pyroclasm. The lords will die, and so will the other creatures with 2 thoughness (they lost their +1/+1).

And versus merfolk you have REB which is really THAT good and pyroclasm is enough for the same reason as above. they need two lords to survive pyroclasm and you can easily take care of their lords with counters and burn.