[Deck] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

[Gibsonmac]

Is Scalding Tarn not as good? Just curious.

They are all the same... I would advocate running a split of fetch lands, Ideally something as such:

1 Misty
1 Tarn
1 Strand
1 Delta
2 Foothills

Reason being, and this has happened to me more than I'd care to mention lately, Pithing needle on a fetch is no joke... more and more decks are running needles main deck with extras in the side, and running a 4-2 or a 3-3 split really fucks your world up when they name correctly, HOWEVER running a 1-1-1-1-2 or a 2-2-2 split makes the play much less relevant/devastating...

[Gibsonmac]

Is Pyroclasm enough for tribal decks like goblins and merfolk with the increase in the number of lords?

usually not, fish has a metric shit-ton of lords available and can have 2 in play easily, same with gobos... firespout all the way baby.... as for hitting the goose, you just slightly adjust your strategy/game-plan, just make sure you have 3 or better yet 4 spouts to facilitate being able to hold off playing permanents.

[Enigma]

Wasteland > 3 mana

So

Pyroclasm > Firespout (In CT)

Who runs Waste? Decks that you want Firespout to comes in. It's for me a no-no, plus Clasm helps against TES, where Firespout not as much (if they go for EtW they will do it on the first 2 turns usually.)

P-M

[Gibsonmac]

Wasteland > 3 mana

So

Pyroclasm > Firespout (In CT)

Who runs Waste? Decks that you want Firespout to comes in. It's for me a no-no, plus Clasm helps against TES, where Firespout not as much (if they go for EtW they will do it on the first 2 turns usually.)

P-M

CT? CounterTop?? also not sure what you mean by 'wasteland > 3 mana' I'm with you on the TES utility of clasm, but there are better things to bring in against that deck, disrupt/spell pierce (i'm sure you already know that)... I'm not as experienced with TT as I am with other decks at the moment, but as firespout has replaced pyroclasm in just about every other aggro-control Urx shell, why still run it here

[miko]

I like the Italian Canadian Thresh decks that won several big tourneys recently. Especially Simone Giovannetti has been very successful running Lavamancer and Coatl in Canadian Thresh. For reference two decklists by Simone:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29420
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29431

Both lists are in my opinion the way to beat aggro. Especially tribal.

What do you guys think about the Italians' attempt?


Mainboard:
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
2 Trygon Predator
4 Fire / Ice
3 Flooded Strand
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Wasteland
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Force of Will
4 Daze

# 60

Sideboard:
3 Firespout
3 Pyroblast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Mind Harness
2 Pithing Needle

# 15

[FoulQ]

CT? CounterTop?? also not sure what you mean by 'wasteland > 3 mana' I'm with you on the TES utility of clasm, but there are better things to bring in against that deck, disrupt/spell pierce (i'm sure you already know that)... I'm not as experienced with TT as I am with other decks at the moment, but as firespout has replaced pyroclasm in just about every other aggro-control Urx shell, why still run it here

CT = Canadian Thresh.

But I agree, people shouldn't be using CT because that makes things way to fucking confusing. I had to read the post like 3 times, but the context reveals he meant CT as in Canadian Threshold.

What he means by the > equation is...good luck getting 3 mana against waste/stifle from merfolk, or waste/port from goblins.

[undone]

I like the Italian Canadian Thresh decks that won several big tourneys recently. Especially Simone Giovannetti has been very successful running Lavamancer and Coatl in Canadian Thresh. For reference two decklists by Simone:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29420
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29431

Both lists are in my opinion the way to beat aggro. Especially tribal.

What do you guys think about the Italians' attempt?

I think the other list is significantly better (the one with 4 mancers and 4 cotal) but I am not sure I would take either If I knew the metagame was going to be combo or have any landstill. I dont know im VERY interested in testing both lists however I am sure that I will be testing the second one wiht 4 mancers more than the list with predators and an EE

I dont know enough to come to a conclusion as of yet but im going to guess they are metagamed varients of this deck built to beat specific metagames improving bad or even matchups (the mancer version just beating folk for instance)

[Humphrey]

Quote:
Originally Posted by strife2 View Post
I'm wondering what is the best SB for a big event:


x3 pithing needle
x3 pyroclasm
x3 REB
x2 spell pierce
x2 BEB
x2 EE

i would absolutely recommend submerge

So, mine is:

2x Needle
2x Pyroclasm
3x EE
4x Submerge
4x Pyroblast/ReB

I run 2 Trygon Predator main. If u dont do so, u need 2-3 Predator/Grip SB

[Skiller]

How would you sideboard against Zoo, Merfolk, Burn, Baseeruption / Counterbalance - Decks, Landstill, Dredge and the mirror with the following list and sideboard ?

Maindeck:

Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Fire / Ice
4 Force Of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

Sorceries
4 Ponder

Lands

2 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:


2 Trygon Predator
2 Krosan Grip
4 Pyroblast
4 Submerge
3 Pyroclasm

And another question, referring to "Vendilion Clique". When do you play the clique normally ? At opponent´s draw step or at the end of his turn ?

[umbowta]

I like the Italian Canadian Thresh decks that won several big tourneys recently. Especially Simone Giovannetti has been very successful running Lavamancer and Coatl in Canadian Thresh. For reference two decklists by Simone:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29420
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29431

Both lists are in my opinion the way to beat aggro. Especially tribal.

What do you guys think about the Italians' attempt?

Well he certainly doesn't like Spell Snare much does he.

If you pay attention to the dates of the events you can see that the earlier version ran the Coatls and he then switched to the Trygon/Clique split. This corresponds to placing 6th and 1st respectively. It also corresponds to an increase in White Stax in the meta, where Trygon Predator is a back breaker. I think I like his plan for as long as Aggro remains strong in the meta.

[undone]

How would you sideboard against Zoo, Merfolk, Burn, Baseeruption / Counterbalance - Decks, Landstill, Dredge and the mirror with the following list and sideboard ?

Maindeck:

Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Fire / Ice
4 Force Of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

Sorceries
4 Ponder

Lands

2 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:


2 Trygon Predator
2 Krosan Grip
4 Pyroblast
4 Submerge
3 Pyroclasm

And another question, referring to "Vendilion Clique". When do you play the clique normally ? At opponent´s draw step or at the end of his turn ?

depends on the deck, the goal of you cliqueing him the cards you have in hand and the cards you know your opponent has or you put him on. Its highly dependant on each situation but the most common is to clique EOT draw phaseing it occurs most often to prevent people going off from a combo or snatching a loam however that said unless the situation is special or hes low on cards and you have lots of pressure, its probably right to eot it so you can present countermagic mana and stifle mana.

[Henrik]

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29274

This is the list I would probably play if I had to play Canadian Thresh at a tournament.
Edit: Maindeck lands should be: -1 Wooded -1 Polluted Delta -2 Flooded strand +3 Misty Rainforest +1 Volcanic Island.
The sideboard is sound as well although I would try -2 Disrupt +2 Spell pierce in it.

Hey, that's my deck, didn't realize it was up on deckcheck. Nice to be acknowledged...

About the lands, I really don't care about what fetches you use, but if you were to tweak it, you're probably right. The "bluff your deck" with a Foothills-go 1st turn is kind of old, diversifying against extirpate is probably better.
I am really fond of the 7/7 split in fetch/duals though.

About SB, this tournament was before spell pierce. I've tried it since, but was not very happy with it. What's your experience with pierce?

[miko]

I've tested Spell Pierce, too. And I have to say that it really is a bomb.
I used it against CB (Supreme Blue-style), Plainswalker-Control, and Combo. It always did what it had to do. Especially against Control it gave me enough time to kill my Op before he could stabilize (e.g. i could actually counter elspeth, humility or cut him from digging his library for the right mana using top.)

[Gibsonmac]

Hey, that's my deck, didn't realize it was up on deckcheck. Nice to be acknowledged...

About the lands, I really don't care about what fetches you use, but if you were to tweak it, you're probably right. The "bluff your deck" with a Foothills-go 1st turn is kind of old, diversifying against extirpate is probably better.
I am really fond of the 7/7 split in fetch/duals though.

About SB, this tournament was before spell pierce. I've tried it since, but was not very happy with it. What's your experience with pierce?

I think it's stronger against everything besides storm combo... it hits more stuff, plus pay 2 is more like a hard counter

[DerFern]

Hi,
I entered a small tourney yesterday with this list (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29431) by Simone Giovannetti. I went 2-3 because of some really strange moments/decks/decisions but would like to elaborate the deck by itself.

The big differences towards regular TT lists is the Creature base of 4 Goyf, Lavamancer and 2/2 Clique/Predator. It runs 1 EE and 19 lands (1 basic island) main. -yes, no Spell Snare and I didn´t miss it anytime. SB got 3xFirespout.

1st round, MUC/b
Nice guy who normally plays T1, but he tried to check the legacy meta to play a big tourney next week. I didn´t see too much of his deck, but it´s been a whole lot of denial, recurring artifacts (Shackles, EE) and Morphling beatdown. Game 1 I mulled to 4 and was beaten quite fast when he had 8 island and Shackles.
Game 2 I hat 2 additional Spell Pierce, 2 REB and Crypt for his Academy ruins. Goyf made that game.
Game 3 he resolved Morphling with two mana open. I had 2x Lightning Bolt, 1 REB in hand and decided not to trade 3 for 1. Bad Idea... Morphling made the game.

2nd round, TypeII Jund-Cascade +Taiga
seriously, not funny. How could TT any possibly lose to T2-Jund-Cascade? Attacking with a 5/6Goyf, he got Bituminous Blast into Bloodbraif Elf into Blightning. Three times. Gotta be kidding. Lost 1-2 against T2.

3rd round, Landstill... i guess
He ran into my Stifle even though he was on the play. Since he kept a hand of two lands and the other one got wasted, Goyf took this game quite fast. G2 he fetched for the basic island, but did not find any other source. Goyf made it even though he had 3 swords in hand.

4th round, TT mirror
He never played the deck before so it was kind of one-sided. Even though he knew what I was playing he did not fetch on his first turn, so I stifled his fetch with FoW Backup. There was some strange boarding on his side and my SB got 5 Blasts so I took the win quite easily. Lavamancer made the game.

5th round, Aggro Loam
Mull to 5, one land, he got Wasteland, game2.
G2 I somehow manage to stabilize and beat him down. 2x Lightning Bolt seals the victory. Game 3 I got a hand of 2xVolcanic, 1xTropical. Dumbass that I am I drop the Tropical, he got Wasteland. I don´t find a green source all game long and got crushed with 2xGoyf on hand.

So, how did the single cards play out?

Grim Lavamancer
I always loved this guy. There were quite some games which he won all alone. Since there have been some times where I had nothing to remove in my gy I would play only three of them next time.
Sidenote: there has NEVER been a moment where I had to remove a card type not present on my opponents side. So he never made my Goyf smaller. He can beat tribal all alone, which is really huge.

Trygon Predator
Good, solid guy. If he does not find a target, he still is a 2/3 Flyer. He got pitched to FoW several times but that`s just okay. I´m not sure about two of them, though.

Vendilion Clique
Not.less.than.two.of.them.ever. Next time there will be three of them main. They were great against Loam and in topdeck mode they really shine. 3/1 flying is just too good.

EE main
It´s nice to know that you have a maindeck answer to your bad matchups. They were always great and forced my opp to play around it several times. I would play a single one again.

Spell Snare
You just don´t need it. Yes, it will hit some things you don´t want to resolve like CB, Standstill, etc. but those are things where this decklist got other mainboard answers to. There is absolutely no reason not to let the opponents Tarmogoyf resolve, since yours is more lethal most of the time by Lavamancer/Fire.

Next time I would play it this way:
// Lands
4 [R] Volcanic Island
3 [R] Tropical Island
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [ZEN] Island (1)

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [DIS] Trygon Predator
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [BD] Brainstorm
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [AP] Fire/Ice
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [M10] Lightning Bolt
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle

[toor]

Played in the 40 man at AU Blue Bell Yesterday. Got 2nd, probably should of gotten 1st (possible shenanigans involved). Deck played nice but I definitely needed more Dredge Hate. But luckily didnt run into it.

I went 4-0-2 in the Swiss. And my friend who has never played legacy got 3rd/4th with 70/75. I beat him in the semis.

CDN Thresh
4 Goyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Vendilion

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 FoW
4 Lightning Bolt
4 SPell Snare
3 Fire/Ice
1 Spell Pierce

18 Lands

SB:
2 Pyroclasm
4 Submerge
3 Spell Pierce
3 Pyroblast
1 K Grip
1 Trygon predator
1 Engineered Exsplsives

[Kanabo]

why do people play wipe away and rushing river? why not 2 of one of them?

[Aleksandr]

decklist

No Mongoose? Interesting... Is Lavamancer THAT better?

[Cenarius]

why do people play wipe away and rushing river? why not 2 of one of them?

Well, because David Caplan himself plays it in that way. Everybody copies/netdecks him, because he had a (fairly :smile: ) good result in a tournament. He'll have a good reason for playing one of each, the others probably just copied his list without know the reason. I mean, nobody tested 2 Rivers or 2 Wipe Away, right?
Kanabo, there are other lists arround with good results:
+2 Clique
or
+1 Clique
+1 Bounce
or
+3 Force Spike
-1 Spell Snare

It seems like going top 8 at a GP is the only reason to get people Netdeck your list. Well in Februari there's a GP in Madrid, like 2000 Km from here. Maybe our team will go there.

[DerFern]

No Mongoose? Interesting... Is Lavamancer THAT better?
Depends on the expected meta. Lavamancer can beat Merfolk/Goblins all alone. He forces Zoo to spend a burn spell on him and will get tiny blockers out of the way for Goyf to run through in about any matchup. He can shoot himself against Ichorid if you don´t have any other weapon at hand. On a Goyf-stall he´ll make the difference in your favour.
I won´t say that Lavamancer is strictly better but I loved him all day long. He´s quite versatile and threats your opponent even before you get Threshold.
If I´m about to experience more combo-based decks out there I would run Mongoose instead.

[Volrath]

Well, because David Caplan himself plays it in that way. Everybody copies/netdecks him, because he had a (fairly :smile: ) good result in a tournament. He'll have a good reason for playing one of each, the others probably just copied his list without know the reason. I mean, nobody tested 2 Rivers or 2 Wipe Away, right?
Kanabo, there are other lists arround with good results:
+2 Clique
or
+1 Clique
+1 Bounce
or
+3 Force Spike
-1 Spell Snare

It seems like going top 8 at a GP is the only reason to get people Netdeck your list. Well in Februari there's a GP in Madrid, like 2000 Km from here. Maybe our team will go there.

Still pushing the Spike i see, it's not bad but it wil never replace a Spell Snare.

I play 2 occasionally, when heavy combo is expected.

I think Spell Pierce has replaced it though, since it's mostly a hard counter against everything but creatures.

I am also liking having more burn the last past times btw.

Maybe i'll go to the GP to, depends if many Benelegacy players are going.

[quicksilver]

Benelegacy

Lols, I approve of this term.

[Volrath]

Benelegacy is a site for player from the Benelux;)

[undone]

What does every one think of the version which is the standard list with

-4 goose
+4 mancer
-2 bounce
+2 clique
-4 Spell snare
+2 Predator
+1 EE
+1 Island

The loss of snare is offset by mancer + bolt being able to kill most goyfs, EE and predator being answers to countertop and so on. It keeps the standard tempo package with a slightly better late game but a much worse control matchup. The loss of goose is pretty important but the differances are as follows

Vs Goblins
Goose blocks 1 dude Lavamancer is litteraly the abyss with an upkeep of R

Vs Merfolk
Goose doesnt do alot always especialy vs relic, Once again lavamanacer is nearly the abyss for R

Vs Zoo
Goose is good but it doesnt contend with T1 Cat before turns 3/4 Mancer can do it on turn 2. Mancer also just kills other mancers quasli's and on the play prevents cat from being played.

Vs landsill
This is where the aquard part comes in, mancer is actualy mediocer still but it eats one of so MANY removal spells that it isnt very good. While goose litteraly can win the matchups alone.

Vs Counterbalance thresh
This is pretty close, goose is markly better unless they are running the version with sowers and bobs. Although grim lets you play up a single bolt/fire into a leathal for RWM.

Vs Combo
Debateable I Would argue that lavamancer is better because he will deal more, more consistently, its actualy really close.

Vs ichorid
Lavamancer is suicidal.
Goose blocks.
Mancer is better but goose isnt terrible either.

I could talk about the other cards but clique is alread a mainstay and predator and EE shore up obvious weaknesses. In all Im guessing the mancer version is better vs metagames with lots of aggro and counterbalance, and goose is better in a control and combo metagame.

[kabal]

What does every one think of the version which is the standard list with

-4 goose
+4 mancer


The fact that mongoose can't be StP/Path is the reason to play it over Grim Lavamancer.

CB plays Stp
Zoo plays Path
Landstill plays Stp and sometimes Path.
Goblins is splashing white more often for Stp. Also has Fanatic (still played) and Incinerator.

[umbowta]

What does every one think of the version which is the standard list with

-4 goose
+4 mancer
-2 bounce
+2 clique
-4 Spell snare
+2 Predator
+1 EE
+1 Island

As long as we continue to have an aggro heavy envioronment, and the decks like Stax which are present as a foil to that envioronment, I like the move a lot.


The fact that mongoose can't be StP/Path is the reason to play it over Grim Lavamancer.

CB plays Stp
Zoo plays Path
Landstill plays Stp and sometimes Path.
Goblins is splashing white more often for Stp. Also has Fanatic (still played) and Incinerator.You're assuming the pilots of those decks are going to waste one of their few removal spells capable of dealing with a fat goyf...on mancer? Sweet. Line em up.

[kabal]

You're assuming the pilots of those decks are going to waste one of their few removal spells capable of dealing with a fat goyf...on mancer? Sweet. Line em up.

When they know that you are playing very little treats, then yes I can see them using a removal spell. Just so we are clear ...

Zoo can remove 'mancer by burn as well. I mentioned goblins has multiple ways to do with him. CB decks has a hard time with Mongoose due to having shroud and coming out early. They got Spell Snare and Daze as well for your Goyfs.

[Ironstickman]

In T.Thresh we have few threats (we need space for all the blue tools+burn), so they MUST be very difficult to deal with to keep up the pressure. Grim dies too easily, it's only really worth against merfolk.

In other decks such as goyf sligh or Naya, lavamancer is certainly a house since your threat density is significantly bigger and at some point one of your critters (be it mancer or whatever) will be left unchecked due to lack of resources, whereas in T.thresh almost any deck will be capable of dealing with a single lavamancer.


Just some thoughts!

EDIT: If you don't have a pressure element, then all your tempo strategy simply FAILS!

[DerFern]

-4 goose
+4 mancer
-2 bounce
+2 clique
-4 Spell snare
+2 Predator
+1 EE
+1 Island

3 Lavamancer should be enough since you never want more than 1 on the board. Overall I think he´s better than Goose.
Right now my Creatures are
4 Goyf
3 Lavamancer
3 Coatl
2 Clique
1 Predator
and it´s wayyyy more pressure than normal TT. The lack of Spell Snare does not hurt so much as you force your opponent to play more aggressive than he would usually do. Definitely needs more testing but my first impression is great!

[Gibsonmac]

3 Lavamancer should be enough since you never want more than 1 on the board. Overall I think he´s better than Goose.
Right now my Creatures are
4 Goyf
3 Lavamancer
3 Coatl
2 Clique
1 Predator
and it´s wayyyy more pressure than normal TT. The lack of Spell Snare does not hurt so much as you force your opponent to play more aggressive than he would usually do. Definitely needs more testing but my first impression is great!

try cutting coatl for more preadator and clique, or goose even... I really dislike coatl... just a suggestion, i'm sure you've tried many possibilities

[undone]

The fact that mongoose can't be StP/Path is the reason to play it over Grim Lavamancer.

CB plays Stp
Zoo plays Path
Landstill plays Stp and sometimes Path.
Goblins is splashing white more often for Stp. Also has Fanatic (still played) and Incinerator.

Ok first things first, I posed this as more of a question than a statement.

Secondly I know that the differance is that it will die frequently but the thing is if you cast mancer T1 vs zoo one of a few things happens

1) They burn it down/path it
Your ok with this because they have no pressure T1 which is HUGE, and if you have the daze blowout all the better.

2) They play a dude
This is fine because you can burn it.

On the draw he is slightly worse but still eats a mana and a card after cast. At worst hes 1 mana to draw a burn spell at best he sticks and you win outright.

Vs goblins
Incinerator is a problem but again stifle is an overworked underpayed agent in this matchup so I dont see it as an issue. Also goblins doesnt actualy play fanatic any more.

I also think that being able to basicly beat mefolk on turn 1 is pretty sick.

In my substitutions you could even cut any number of cliques/EE for cotals for bigger more resiliant threats



3 Lavamancer should be enough since you never want more than 1 on the board. Overall I think he´s better than Goose.
Right now my Creatures are
4 Goyf
3 Lavamancer
3 Coatl
2 Clique
1 Predator
and it´s wayyyy more pressure than normal TT. The lack of Spell Snare does not hurt so much as you force your opponent to play more aggressive than he would usually do. Definitely needs more testing but my first impression is great!

I disagree double mancer is pretty nuts as they can even shoot down thoctars and predators with NO help netting large amounts of CA. I strongly approve of keeping at least 4 goyf and 2 clique because they just aggro them so fast, mongoose is aquard in that sometimes hes just a 1/1 for 1 which is pretty much utter trash. Its possible mongoose is in the board for some matchups but I feel that mancer should be MD because it hoses the heck out of aggro and this format is looking VERY aggro.

[Cenarius]

I just got a simple statement: Everybody who doens't play Nimble Mongoose, doesn't know how this deck works.
Nimble Mongoose is the reason why this decks performes so well. F.E David Caplan won 2 games vs Countertop thx to Nimble Mongoose.

Giving the argument: I kills Merfolk, may be true but you already HAVE a good matchup if you have a good Sideboard and when you're experienced (by testing), you know how to play against it.
This whole discussion about Tempo Threshold is just becomming so useless. I won't be replying too much here anymore, since all the active guys on this thread have no idea how to play the deck correctly. I don't say I do know how to play perfectly, ofcourse I do make mistakes. Everybody learns from his mistakes, but making decks that do not contain Mongoose or discussing the two open (over and over again) about the mainboard, just seems useless.

I'll post my list again. For the guys that do want to test it.

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 brainstorm
4 daze
4 fire/ice
4 force of will
3 force spike
4 lightning bolt
3 spell snare
4 stifle

4 ponder

2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard

3 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
2 Submerge
2 Spell Pierce
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Vendilion Clique

[umbowta]

When they know that you are playing very little treats, then yes I can see them using a removal spell. Just so we are clear ...
I think you mean...
When they think that you are playing very few threats, then yes I can see them using a removal spell. Just so we are clear ...
It that right?

...because undone's suggestion increased the number of threats in the deck with multiples of Clique and Predator. In that case, I'm personally hoping they spend the StP/PtE on the mancer for sure.

[Gibsonmac]

I think i'm gonna try clique as 2-3 of and preadator as a 1-2 of in place of spell snare... any thoughts?? has anyone tried this in a 'standard' build

[MULocke]

I think i'm gonna try clique as 2-3 of and preadator as a 1-2 of in place of spell snare... any thoughts?? has anyone tried this in a 'standard' build

Don't cut spell snare. Running more creatures is probably fine, but please don't cut spell snare.

[umbowta]

rant

Stagnation makes poison even the purest waters.

We're having a simple discussion about the direction of this deck in times of a meta shift. Clique and Predator are both intelligent responses to that shift...and mancer is still both very debatable and worthy of debate.

[sauce]

agree, you always want 4 spell snare unless you're playing vs decks that have no goyf/bob/piledriver/lord of atlantis/counterbalance/devastating dreams/life from the loam/survival of the fittest.

i would also not play the deck w/o 4 nimble mongoose, he is a boss.

[Gibsonmac]

i would also not play the deck w/o 4 nimble mongoose, He is THE boss.

Agreed... Springsteen indeed...

[johanessen]

The fact that mongoose can't be StP/Path is the reason to play it over Grim Lavamancer.

CB plays Stp
Zoo plays Path
Landstill plays Stp and sometimes Path.
Goblins is splashing white more often for Stp. Also has Fanatic (still played) and Incinerator.

They all play 4 of each. If they swords grim, tarmo will overwhelm them. Also, lavamancer versions also run trygon/vendillion/sower/coatl since look more at middle-long game, so they will remain alive if opponent swords lavamancer.

[Ironstickman]

The combination of mancer and clique (3 seems a good number for these lists) is more appealing (predator seems a bit situational and coatl is a 2/2 for 3 keep in mind!) , however, experience tells me Mongoose is just too good a card in this tempo strategy. Snare is a tool that you need against most of the field imo.

I'm feeling quite comfortable with the list that made 2º at gencon, with 2 cliques instead of bouncers (it wins by itself against ANT). And s.pierces are just awesome!

By the way, keep open to these ideas people! if I'm not mistaken, those lists made important results in huge events in Italy.

[Cenarius]

Stagnation makes poison even the purest waters.

We're having a simple discussion about the direction of this deck in times of a meta shift. Clique and Predator are both intelligent responses to that shift...and mancer is still both very debatable and worthy of debate.

It's not Rant or bawl. It's a fact. The whole deck evolves on Nimble Mongoose. It is thé best creature in your deck, perfectly supporting you tempo-idea (with shroud, oh really?). Why cut it?
You already have a good matchup against Merfolk decks. Boarding them out (all 4) is another thing I would never do. Probably you're inexperienced with the deck, stating that Mancer is very debatable. It isn't. Sure its worth to debate new things, but this is going on for what, 6 pages? With no decent results, no testing results etc.
Btw, Merfolk is in decline. If you haven't noticed. Atleast in my metagame.

[Ectoplasm]

Just hopping by to support Cenarius, this deck is designed to operate on low landcounts and spend alot of its gametime wrecking your opponent's ability to actually play the game, no need to be reactive with mancers when you have one mana 3/3's to sneak into the game while your opponent isn't watching to keep the pressure on.

Being reactive in a tempodeck is just a bad idea overall, take up the game and make your opponent react to you instead.

[undone]

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29431

your wrong.

The reason I was trying to stir discussion on the list is because I know how good mongoose is NORMALY he is the card you want to see vs blue.dec He is pretty mediocer in the merfolk matchup which is about 60/40 preboard and very even post board, mancer resolves and wins the game. Mancer being in the main conveniently allows for SB space for either snare or mongoose.

Mongoose is insane. However its not that good vs decks with a ton of dudes of equal size. Also as a side note the only two drops you even want to counter are counterbalance and goyf and chalice for 1, all can be answered by either mancer, EE or predator. Also my build is better vs zoo because path actualy GETS me a land and lets me play my bigger dudes.

[umbowta]

It's not Rant or bawl. It's a fact. The whole deck evolves on Nimble Mongoose. It is thé best creature in your deck, perfectly supporting you tempo-idea (with shroud, oh really?). Why cut it?
You already have a good matchup against Merfolk decks. Boarding them out (all 4) is another thing I would never do. Probably you're inexperienced with the deck, stating that Mancer is very debatable. It isn't. Sure its worth to debate new things, but this is going on for what, 6 pages? With no decent results, no testing results etc.
Btw, Merfolk is in decline. If you haven't noticed. Atleast in my metagame.

Dude! It's not fact. You're essentially calling anyone who doesn't blindly agree with you stupid and/or inexperienced. Lay off the ad hominems and argue the cards.

What is meant by, "Mancer is very debatable" is that its inclusion is questionable, or I'm not convinced Mancer is a good move. But the results undone has pointed out are recent, and interesting. Have you happened to notice that both Canadian Thresh decks that made top 8 at that event both eschewed Mongoose in favor of Grim Lavamancer, that is, no Tempo Thresh runnning goose made that top 8? Are you saying a 135 player event is not "decent results" by your definition?

[Whit3 Ghost]

Mancer is probably good in a super agro metagame with a lot of Merfolk, but Mongoose literally makes your control matchup. I tested the 12 creature/8 counter list and was underwhelmed, especially against control. Cutting Spell Snare and Goose just don't sit right with me right now.*

Edit- in the American East Coast/major tournament metagame. Depending on what is seeing a lot of play in Europe, that list might be the best call. I don't like Clique though. It's not big enough and it's ability is good, but not something I'm paying three mana for.

[Raptor]

I'm playing a pretty standard build. (with 4 spell snare, of course)

I'm trying to figure out what would be the best 2 flexible slot if I expect some landstill and some aggro (goblins, merfolk, zoo, and maybe 1 fearie).

Probally a rushing river, but what would the slot #2 be ?
Thanks for any advices.

[Osse]

Firespout?

[Whit3 Ghost]

I'm playing a pretty standard build. (with 4 spell snare, of course)

I'm trying to figure out what would be the best 2 flexible slot if I expect some landstill and some aggro (goblins, merfolk, zoo, and maybe 1 fearie).

Probally a rushing river, but what would the slot #2 be ?
Thanks for any advices.
Probably 2x River, just because the extra bounce is relevant against Zoo. Wipe Away if you're seeing a lot of Planeswalkers because you usually only get one chance to bounce them.

[Ectoplasm]

What's the deal with trying to run firespout? I heard blowing up your own guys is bad :D
Also I really don't like the idea of maintaining 1 mana to use mancer at all.

[DerFern]

What's the deal with trying to run firespout?
Depends on the rest of your deck. If you run the basic built with 4 Goyf/Goose you should better try Pyroclasm if you´re expecting a lot of tribal. When there is no Goose but a lot of Clique/Predator then Firespout will hit everything on the ground quite fine.
From my experience maindecking Spout/Clasm is not that a good idea since they will be dead in too many matchups where you just can´t afford ist (Landstill, Garden, ANT).
Since I´m running 4 Goyf, 3 Mancer, 3 Coatl, 2 Clique, 1 Predator there are 3 Firespout in the Board. Except for Lavamancer all those guys should survive Firespout, so it is some kind of one sided Wrath.

[chokin]

Firespout can be such an awesome card when you abuse big butts and flying. There's a CounterTop list that runs Rhox War Monk, Goyf, Predator and 3 Firespouts main. Rolling a one sided Wrath is pretty unfair. It's not something I'd suggest for the standard Tempo Thresh list.

I'm not going to tell anyone how to build or run their decks, but at this time I do not support Lorescale Coatl in Tempo Thresh. Three mana spells in this deck are usually answers (see Predator, Grip, Clique). The 4/4/2 Goose, Goyf, Clique/TP builds seem to run pretty smoothly.

Are people just trying to turn Tempo Thresh into UGr Midrange?

[Skeggi]

You cannot run Firespout in Tempo Thresh. You either kill your own Mongeese, or you cut the Mongeese and start playing something else, like the flyers for instance. However, the best possible flyer for TT costs 3 mana. 3. Instead of 1. That takes the tempo out of it quite a bit. Next to that, it's Legendary so you can't run a second one next to it if you needed it.

[Humphrey]

Maybe thisll go the wrong direction, but since i like CB-T id like to add it.

i was thinking standard build
-2 Spellsnare -2 Ponder -1Fire/Ice
+3 CB +2 Top

What u think? Possible or no-go?

[Wargoos]

Maybe thisll go the wrong direction, but since i like CB-T id like to add it.

i was thinking standard build
-2 Spellsnare -2 Ponder -1Fire/Ice
+3 CB +2 Top

What u think? Possible or no-go?

Oh, I got it, something like TEMPO COUNTERBALANCE! MANADENIAL AND WASTELAND PLAN BECAUSE ITS SO EFFECTIVE.

Srsly no - just no.
U wanna play CBTop u take those stifles out, go for a stable manabase, add some Firespouts, Chain of Plasma, Swans of Bryn Argoll and Coatls, take those mongoose out and play neo-swanthresh or something..

[undone]

I would like to experiment with top however I dont see this as possible as it costs like a bajillion mana. Counterbalance costs UU which is too much blue for me in this deck. Top is so much better than CB if I was to play top I would play 4 because the entire point of that card is to make your fetches even more nuts.

[Gibsonmac]

Maybe thisll go the wrong direction, but since i like CB-T id like to add it.

i was thinking standard build
-2 Spellsnare -2 Ponder -1Fire/Ice
+3 CB +2 Top

What u think? Possible or no-go?

Yeah humph man, its no a fit for this deck, it is entirely the opposite direction...

That said, you could try Dreadstill... kind of a hybrid of TT, CounterTop, and Landstill all wrapped in a stiflenought shell... I played it for a long time, it's fun, and you kinda adapt the strategy you play depending on the MU (ie. it can play like TT, CT, or Landtill when needed to)

Check it out the thread for it, the 'standard' Ugr list is the SSG 5k boston winner's list on, the 'standard' Ur is in the thread- J.V.'s list on page 87... they are fun decks, which do what it sounds like you are looking to accomplish, PM me if you need any specifics


You really can't fit CounterTop into this deck though, it takes up too much space, and it isn't a tempo advantage per se, take a look at dreadstill though, it may serve you well

[Jayzonious]

Does Propaganda have any use for us on the sideboard?

Goes well with our mana disruption and seems like it would be good against Ichorid if you can get it out in time, and it also has some use in other match ups like Zoo and Tribal, unlike Tormod's Crypt which is pretty one dimensional.

[mossivo1986]

IF you would run propaganda you mine as well run ghostly prison, as it is white and therefore unblastable by rem and pyro.

[georgjorge]

IF you would run propaganda you mine as well run ghostly prison, as it is white and therefore unblastable by rem and pyro.


Wrong thread :wink:

[Ironstickman]

IF you would run propaganda you mine as well run ghostly prison, as it is white and therefore unblastable by rem and pyro.

?

@Jayzonious: If you're worried about Ichorid I would suggest running tormod's crypt directly, since it has a more efficient cost (cmc 3 is just too much) Plus, propaganda won't stop a big dude dread returned. You might aswell get to use crypt against survival and loam strategies though!
I don't think prop. will do much against Zoo really, the time you might gain with it is hardly worth the tempo investment (cmc3).

[sauce]

?

@Jayzonious: If you're worried about Ichorid I would suggest running tormod's crypt directly, since it has a more efficient cost (cmc 3 is just too much) Plus, propaganda won't stop a big dude dread returned. You might aswell get to use crypt against survival and loam strategies though!
I don't think prop. will do much against Zoo really, the time you might gain with it is hardly worth the tempo investment (cmc3).

dont forget zoo has reb's and qasali pridemages to deal w/ propogandas

[Jayzonious]

Good points. Didn't think about Zoo's REB and yeah Tormod's Crypt is just better vs. Ichorid.

I hope 2 Tormod's Crypts are enough, don't really want to fill my SB up with more than 2 slots for GY hate.

[BreathWeapon]

If you guys are running Vendilion Clique, I think you should consider Serendib Efreet instead. Yes Clique has the Flash/disruption thing going for it, but Serendib Efreet's ass of 4 survives Lightning Bolt and Firespout and eats Nimble Mongoose and Wild Nacatal alive. Dib seems really good right now, because he comes out just when it matters vs aggro and holds the line.

[Gibsonmac]

If you guys are running Vendilion Clique, I think you should consider Serendib Efreet instead. Yes Clique has the Flash/disruption thing going for it, but Serendib Efreet's ass of 4 survives Lightning Bolt and Firespout and eats Nimble Mongoose and Wild Nacatal alive. Dib seems really good right now, because he comes out just when it matters vs aggro and holds the line.

Seriously.... no.... just terrible... the reason to run clique is solely because of the abilities of flash/disruption...

[BreathWeapon]

Seriously.... no.... just terrible... the reason to run clique is solely because of the abilities of flash/disruption...

Clique sucks ass vs Zoo, what match up is Clique improving? 'Dib is an Abyss vs the most common non-Goyf threats and stands up to Bolt/Spout, IMO that's way more practical than Flash + crappy pseudo discard if you're looking for a filler threat.

[Wargoos]

non-Goyf threats

Wait, there are threats that are not goyf?
Well, we have goyf...

ALso

Clique sucks ass vs Zoo
Thx for that, cap'n obvious.

Srsly, efreet was proposed in the old thread, sea drake-thing was proposed in the old thread, hell even dreadnought was proposed in the old thread.
It's all nothing new and chewed.
Don't think you come up with all those flashy ideas first...
Decklist is nearly to its optimal and those 2 flexible slots are obviously more or less meta game calls.

[BreathWeapon]

Wait, there are threats that are not goyf?
Well, we have goyf...

ALso

Thx for that, cap'n obvious.

Srsly, efreet was proposed in the old thread, sea drake-thing was proposed in the old thread, hell even dreadnought was proposed in the old thread.
It's all nothing new and chewed.
Don't think you come up with all those flashy ideas first...
Decklist is nearly to its optimal and those 2 flexible slots are obviously more or less meta game calls.

Zoo wasn't running a muck "in the old thread," if your threats aren't viable vs Zoo they're not very appealing - a little extra fat goes a long way, especially in a threat light deck.

[FoulQ]

Clique sucks ass vs Zoo, what match up is Clique improving? 'Dib is an Abyss vs the most common non-Goyf threats and stands up to Bolt/Spout, IMO that's way more practical than Flash + crappy pseudo discard if you're looking for a filler threat.

To answer your other question, Clique is good in the control matchup and dealing with randoms.

You are looking at this from a card-by-card basis, and from that perspective you make some great points. However you have to think about the philosophy of the deck and what the deck is trying to accomplish. Serendib Efreet does not stand in line with this strategy.

Clique is good. Have you even ever played with it? It is great.

I guess if your metagame is as infested with zoo is you can try it and tell us how it goes of course. To me this deck is about having decent matchups across the board and winning with playskill. Clique helps equalize our matchups and stays within that philosophy of this deck.

[Jayzonious]

Since I have been undecided on the 2 flexible slots, I decided to play with a split of 1 Vendillion Clique and 1 Rushing River in the 2 flexible slots of Canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh.

I feel that with 4x Ponder along with 6x Fetchalnds + 4x Brainstorms you should be able to dig for whatever is practical for the given situation.

I haven't seen any decks t8 with this strategy, but it seems solid to me in play testing.

Does anyone have some further insight on this strategy? I know it is very difficult to break down just 2 flexible slots in a deck, but this strategy seems pretty solid if your unsure of the meta in any given tournament.

Any insight on this particular usage of the 2 "flexible" slots would be greatly appreciated.

[Skeggi]

consider Serendib Efreet
Did you know Serendib Efreet doesn't race:

Tarmogoyf
Nimble Mongoose
Mutavault
Mishra's Factory
Tombstalker
Kird Ape
Wild Nacatl
Qasali Pridemage
Phyrexian Dreadnought
Progenitus
Lord of Atlantis
Merrow Reejerey
Wake Thrasher
Silvergill Adept
Merfolk Sovereign
Eternal Witness
Kitchen Finks
Marit Lage
Nantuko Shade
Hypnotic Specter
Sea Drake
And so on and so forth

If your opponent has 2 or more power on the table, you will not win the damage race. Except if he only has a Dark Confidant, but he will draw your opponent some extra cards so he will win the game.

[Henrik]

Since I have been undecided on the 2 flexible slots, I decided to play with a split of 1 Vendillion Clique and 1 Rushing River in the 2 flexible slots of Canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh.

I feel that with 4x Ponder along with 6x Fetchalnds + 4x Brainstorms you should be able to dig for whatever is practical for the given situation.

I haven't seen any decks t8 with this strategy, but it seems solid to me in play testing.

Does anyone have some further insight on this strategy? I know it is very difficult to break down just 2 flexible slots in a deck, but this strategy seems pretty solid if your unsure of the meta in any given tournament.

Any insight on this particular usage of the 2 "flexible" slots would be greatly appreciated.

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29274

Yes, it works, yes it's good. Just like any combination of almost anything, really.

[Gibsonmac]

Since I have been undecided on the 2 flexible slots, I decided to play with a split of 1 Vendillion Clique and 1 Rushing River in the 2 flexible slots of Canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh.

I feel that with 4x Ponder along with 6x Fetchalnds + 4x Brainstorms you should be able to dig for whatever is practical for the given situation.

I haven't seen any decks t8 with this strategy, but it seems solid to me in play testing.

Does anyone have some further insight on this strategy? I know it is very difficult to break down just 2 flexible slots in a deck, but this strategy seems pretty solid if your unsure of the meta in any given tournament.

Any insight on this particular usage of the 2 "flexible" slots would be greatly appreciated.


Works just fine, however, I have found I prefer having more consistency to overall utility, ie. running 2 bounce/lavamancer/clique/predator etc as opposes to a 1/1 split of 2 cards... but that is me... I've done tourneys with a split, did quite well, but I prefer 2 of same strategy card over 1/1 disruption/bounce/removal...

[miko]

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29274

Yes, it works, yes it's good. Just like any combination of almost anything, really.

Nice one Hendrik. That's a tourney with 19 people and your decklist. I just like you pointing out your own decklist. It's not meant to offend you, because i prefer Rushing River and Clique, too. So it definitely can work. But it would be cool to see more than one decklist in a 19 tourney.
But: Congrats for your success.

[kabal]

But it would be cool to see more than one decklist in a 19 tourney.

I think you are dwelling too much on these flex slots. Pick what works for you, what works for your meta and call it a day.

[undone]

I think you are dwelling too much on these flex slots. Pick what works for you, what works for your meta and call it a day.

The more I play with this deck I find the flex slots to be best as any dude heck they would probably be good as werebare because this deck needs dudes to hit faces with, however that isnt to say other options dont exist.

If the metagame continues to be "LoLZ zoo" I offer this solition. Play 4 MD mancer, 2 MD predator and 2 MD other dude along side the 4 goyfs. Playing a single MD threads of disloyalty may also be a viable option if you hold out till 4 mana or a counter spell for quasli. The matchup shouldnt be that hard and if it is really that insane cutting a fire ice for something that deals 3 (chain) may be correct as we need spot removal for zoos dudes.

[firstshot]

I've found the zoo matchup to be rough preboard and slightly easier post b/c submerge is awesome.
If they have a heavy creature draw followed up by burn things are rough. If they have a 1-2 creature draw things are easy. The matchup is also harder if they play around daze which my current play tester does and I imagine most good players will do.
I would like this matchup to be easier but I'm not sure what the solution is especially since I want to keep nimble mongoose in the main. I could see cutting 1 daze(this card keeps getting worse) and 1 f/i for some lavamancers.

[FoulQ]

I would like this matchup to be easier but I'm not sure what the solution is especially since I want to keep nimble mongoose in the main. I could see cutting 1 daze(this card keeps getting worse) and 1 f/i for some lavamancers.

The main problem with this is the dis-synergy between lavamancer and mongoose.

[Purgatory]

The main problem with this is the dis-synergy between lavamancer and mongoose.

I tested the 4 Goose / 4 Goyf / 2 Mancer set up as well, and found the same to be true, especially during the earlier turns of the game. Overall, I think you'd have to cut Goose entirely to fit 4 Mancers in the deck if it's to be any use.

As far as the flexible slots go, in an unknown metagame (which is really what this is about), I find the bounce spells to be really, really useful.

[Raptor]

Good points. Didn't think about Zoo's REB and yeah Tormod's Crypt is just better vs. Ichorid.

I hope 2 Tormod's Crypts are enough, don't really want to fill my SB up with more than 2 slots for GY hate.

Playing ichorid, I could tell you that it's a pretty bad match up, and 2 slots won't likely be enough to beat them.
I just gave up for ichorid, I'm only hoping not facing them or being a lucksac.
To win, you need to have them to not know how to play the deck, to not have a good hand or you having a god hand. You need to have a perfect mix of stifle, wasteland, threat and counters. If a Tireless tribe hits the table in the early turns, you lost.
You need to race them and it will be hard, they could slow play you by drawing, discarding EOT and dredging each turns.

If you really want to stand a chance, you'd be better to run the new trap. You have a chance catching them with something unexpected and win by the time that they lost.

[Whit3 Ghost]

Played Tempo Thresh at the huge Binghamton tournament, went 5-3, narrowly missing out on T16.

I was 2-1 against the mirror, and beat ProgBant, Reanimator and Zoo. I lost to some quasi-suicide deck due to landscrew game one and a misplay game 2 and to Sligh due to another misplay.

The highs were some savage lucksackery against Di in the Reanimator matchup, curving out perfectly in my first two mirror matches and a hell of a match against Alix Hatfield with Zoo.

The lows involved getting manhandled by Freakish to miss out on the top16 as well as my own sloppy play (although not terrible considering I hadn't played physical cards in a year). Sometimes you only see three green sources over 20+ turns and your opponent has the Wasteland every. single. time. That being said, unless your opponent has severely mulliganed or you know that he only has one land, blind Waste on turn one is the wrong play.

And Mr. Elrod: Sorry for being short at the end of that match, I just wished that the games were more competitive and it was fucking frustrating to draw absolutely nothing of relevance for 10+ turns a game.

I think that the base list with the two bounce is the best option and I never felt like the slight changes of my opponent's lists (basics, Cliques, MD Spell Pierce) were the optimal choices.

The only changes that I would make is to possibly do something about the random 1 ofs in the board. Grip, EE and Pyroclasm remained irrelevant for the entire tournament. Maybe they should be Crypts or some other form of grave hate?

For reference, my list is the normal 1/1 bounce split maindeck, with 4 Pierce, 4 Blast, 4 Submerge and one each of the aforementioned one-ofs. Submerge is next level good.

[puppektion]

If you really want to stand a chance, you'd be better to run the new trap. You have a chance catching them with something unexpected and win by the time that they lost.

Right now, I'm actually running 3x Crypt and 3x Echoing Truth in my SB against ichorid. Then again, it also takes up 20-25% of the metagame by me... It seems to work well, but in a more diverse meta, I wouldn't even consider doing this.

[Valdez]

Why do you play Truth over Clasm..?

[Kanabo]

@everyone, why dont people use stone rain, or ice storm? they seem good to me...

[Purgatory]

Why do you play Truth over Clasm..?

Instant speed I suppose?


@everyone, why dont people use stone rain, or ice storm? they seem good to me...

No, they are not. I never want to pay three mana to destroy a land when Wasteland can do that for me just as well. Besides, it's rare to even have three lands in play in this deck anyway, so having more than just a couple of spells that cost three would require major reconstruction of the manabase and the rest of the deck.

[puppektion]

Why do you play Truth over Clasm..?

Instant speed, pitches to Force in a pinch... There have been multiple times where Truth stops 2-3 ichorids after the draw to prevent them from using dread return. It also can mess with other decks as an extra removal, hitting Dreadnaught or Tombstalker is amusing (yes, i would rather use Submerge for that, but as of now, Truth is the better meta call for me).

[Maagler]

So.. this might sound stupid, and it might be because I'm trolling a magic sight while drunk, but has anyone tried a giant growth? I think it might not be as bad as it looks, since nobody in their right mind would expect that. also you know what to side out lol :P

apologeez for misspells

[Gibsonmac]

So.. this might sound stupid, and it might be because I'm trolling a magic sight while drunk, but has anyone tried a giant growth? I think it might not be as bad as it looks, since nobody in their right mind would expect that. also you know what to side out lol :P

apologeez for misspells

holy shit... really??

[Maagler]

holy shit... really??

oh shit. I'm sorry I got that wrong, I meant brute force. I can see why you might be upset at my suggestion of giant growth. my b.

[Humphrey]

I went 3-2 on todays tournament
i played the standardbuild -1 tropical +forest -volcanic +island with 2 Trygon Predator in the free slots and the sb:
// Sideboard
SB: 4 Submerge
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives

1 round - Survival elves
first game i have 3 bolts for his first 3 elves, then a goyf. i can attack a few times and snare a priest. after im getting a second goyf and mongoose he manages to get order on prog, but its to late - hes on 8 and i draw a 4th bolt.
SB: -4 Stifle -4 Daze +2 Pyro, 2 EE, 4 Submerge
second game i have 2 bolts again, then he does draw go and i get a goyf. he gets an archdruid who is shuffled away by submerge response to fetch. then he gets messenger who finds 2 llanowar, which he plays the turn after. i have pyroclasm. in the end he told me, he didnt play order when he has the messenger. he was afraid of daze :-)
1:0 2-0

2nd round - Aggroloam
1st game i mulligan to 6 and he is down down to 5. after he isnt playing anything in the first 3 turns he plays moxD, Barbring, Goyf. i already have my goyf and play a second on my turn. next turn he blockes 1 and gets the fire.
- 4 Bolt, -3 stifle +4 Submerge +3 Pierce
2nd game i mulligan down to 5, still no land. i try to find one in the next turns but i didnt. kept 1 ponder, 2 force, 1submerge
3rd game i play 0/1 goyf, he plays 0/1 goyf, than i pierce a assault and submerge his goyf into a foothills. he gets crusher, but i have bolt and he has no cycle. goyf and mongoose swinging for the win.
2:0 4-1

3rd round - Dredge
1st game was pretty strange, he dredged his library down to 4 and only got 1 moebe, but he has bridges and ichorid, and i have only goyf.
SB: - 4 snare -2 predator -1bolt +2 Clasm +2 EE +3 Pierce
2nd game,after mulligan to 6 im stuck on 1 tropical and cant find a red source. my hand has clasm and EE. i had 3 wasteland to slow him down.
2:1 4-3

4st round - Echantress
1st game i manage to counter 2 grove, 1 enchantress and 1 karmic justice. i get goyf and the turn later predator. he plays confinement which dies in the upkeep. he is on 2 when he can resolve replenish and i have no counter left
SB: -2Fire/Ice -4 Stifle +2EE +3 Pierce +1 Grip
2nd game i can snare an enchantress, counter city of soli, choke, presence and get a goyf. he can play serveral enchantments and 2 grove but is leaking more enchantress-effects. i beat him to 7 and play treshed mongoose.he gets confinement which dies the turn after. anyway i have grip in hand and bolt on top of library
3rd game i counter choke and a grove, then he gets city of solitude. i have goyf on the table and EE in hand. i play EE for 3, but he plays karmic justice. i can attack a few turns and when he plays the confinement i crack ee and lose 3 lands and goyf, so my board is empty. after 2 turns draw/go i get tropical with treshed mongoose, he has gras again but i draw wasteland and can swing for the remaining life.
after the game he told me his misplay. when he played justice, he could have played replenish, i was tapped out for EE, but he feared the daze. he forgot his city of solitude :)
3:1 6-4

5th round - Merfolk
1st game i mulligan to 6 - he plays vial otp which i try to force, but he has daze. then he gets trickster and catcher, i get a goyf. after him getting a waketresher i can chump 2 turns with goose and get a 2nd goyf. he playes reerjay, swing for 10. i get fire/ice but he plays a 2nd reerjay. couldnt win that anyways
-4 Stifle -3 Snare +2clasm +2 EE +3Pyro
2nd game i mulligan to 5 and keep tropical, mongoose, force, bs and ponder. i think i misplayed here, because i cast the goose and he has the waste in his turn. top 20 cards contains no land...
3:2 6-6

overall i had the feeling, that i got outs against everydeck but i was screwed in the 2 lost matches. somehow i was missing cb-t which i played the years before. im not sure about sticking to TT

+
MVP - Lightning Bolt
Submerge - broken card
Daze in the mind of opp

-
Stifle/Wasteland - bad matchups for those 2 - everybody played loads of basics/wasnt affected by it. finally it killed me in the merfolk matchup -.-
Dredge and the piloting player, cant tell which one was more annoying - deck or player


Meta:
17 Players

2 Faeriestompy
2 Enchantress
2 Picula
1 Boros
1 CB-T
1 Dredge
1 Aggrolaoam
1 Survival Elfes
1 Intuition-Demigod #2nd
1 Burn
1 Affinity
1 Merfolk #1st
1 Canadian Thrash
1 Zoo

[miko]

Why do you guys all try to fit in basic lands? This goes at the cost of consistency.

[Humphrey]

Blood Moon, Back2Basics, Path to Exile, Wasteland

[Valdez]

Blood Moon, Back2Basics
Coast 3 Mana vs. a Deck with Predator, Stifle, Waste & Daze and REB/BEB/Grip from the Board.

Wasteland
1. Stifle
2. You'll lose to Wastelands when you fetch Basics, because of Colorscrew.

[Humphrey]

Coast 3 Mana vs. a Deck with Predator, Stifle, Waste & Daze and REB/BEB/Grip from the Board.

1. Stifle
2. You'll lose to Wastelands when you fetch Basics, because of Colorscrew.

pardon?

decks running bloodmoon and b2b arent vulnerable to stifle and waste and predator must be on the table already/grip in ur hand.

but u can cast predator and grip when u have basic forest to get.

well, the forest helped me against choke too.

what i forgot too, extirpate on tropical is gg

[Wargoos]

what i forgot too, extirpate on tropical is gg

When this happens to me I aways go clique beatdown - it's more fun this way.

[undone]

pardon?

decks running bloodmoon and b2b arent vulnerable to stifle and waste and predator must be on the table already/grip in ur hand.

but u can cast predator and grip when u have basic forest to get.

well, the forest helped me against choke too.

what i forgot too, extirpate on tropical is gg

Extirpate on tropical is fine just play moar clique beats.

and blood moon decks arent wrecked by waste/stifle? LOL wut? Blood moon decks run chrome moxes for stifles and 8 double lands which are very wasteable. Back to basics decks cast them turns 3/4 and you can just play around it by using dazes to untap.

Basics are terrible in this deck. I have come to the conclusion if I was to add a 19th land (possible but not something I would want) it would be a 7th fetch because basics are that bad and fetches turn on brainstorm.

[Valdez]

Extirpate on tropical
I'ver never lost a game, against Extirpate with any Tempo Deck, in ~18 month.


and blood moon decks arent wrecked by waste/stifle? LOL wut? Blood moon decks run chrome moxes for stifles and 8 double lands which are very wasteable. Back to basics decks cast them turns 3/4 and you can just play around it by using dazes to untap.
[...]
Basics are terrible in this deck.
qft.

[miko]

I would rather play a Taiga than a basic Forest in TT. Although i would never chance the manabase of CT.
Btw. I think Trygon Predator does not belong into CT, because he has neither flash nor any other synergy with the deck besides Card Advantage. If i would play another creature i would without doubt go for Vendilion Clique. Because of flash and its ability to disrupt your op.

[kabal]

I'ver never lost a game, against Extirpate with any Tempo Deck, in ~18 month.


Exactly and if you even have still not worth playing basic Forest. Once you have played TT for awhile you soon realize that color consistancy >>>> losing to Extirpate or the fact that you may drop a game due to Blood Moon/etc.

[miko]

I think the "list to play" at the very moment might be Goobafish's one or Goobafish's list playing Clique instead of bounce. I prefer the Rushing River and Wipe Away split because the bounce spells are in my opinion easy to play whereas clique needs a lot of skill and the right timing.
And bounce solves things clique might be too late for. Clique of course has advantages, too. It is a very fast beater, of course and it works pretty well against combo if you reach the magical three mana. It's ability to see your ops hand is not irrelevant, too. And even the trick of killing another clique due to legendary status happens more often than one might think.
But overall I think it is a question of skill and/or taste/playstyle.

So I would play this spells:

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Bounce (Wipe Away/Rushing River) or 2 Vendillion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire / Ice

I also prefer a Landbase that consists of 5 different fetchlands. I do so because bluffing a stifleless deck by playing Wooded Foothills does not work anymore, because either everyone already knows what i usually play or the op already knows the bluff. Nevertheless i tend to play 2 Wooded Foothills, because we have 6 Fetchlands. So my "fetchbase" looks like that:

2 Wooded Foothills
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta

It happened to me more than ones that some ops tried to cut me from using my fetchies via Pithing Needle. Good luck trying it again ;)
The remaining land slots are obvious as far as I conclude right from the replies posted before.

4 Wasteland
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island

I do not like losing tempo are flexibility by running basic lands. If I have to lose due to Path to Exile and not finding a basic forest I do so without any regrets.

But let's come to the more flexible slots: The remaining 15.

I play the following SB:

1 Krosan Grip
4 Spell Pierce
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pyroclasm
3 Submerge

This is Caplan's SB. I just substituted Disrupt and added Spell Pierce instead because i wanted to be more flexible. Flexibility is the key word when discussing a SB. You want to use your SB in every match. You don't want cards in your SB that do not see play in a tournament. And i need to say that I usually use the whole SB at every tourney. It only happens at rare occasions that i did not board in Submerge, for example. Because of that I cut one Submerge (even if it is one of the best cards in my SB) and added 1 Engineered Explosives because of 2 reasons. (1) I want my SB to be as flexible as i could have it. (2) I want to have more mass-removals. And EE is in a lot of matchups at least a 1 for 2.
I play Pyroblasts/REB and not BEB/Hydroblasts, because red is usually not a factor to be considered to much. You basically have 3 decks that play red and that are frequently played: Goblins, Burn and AggroLoam. Against Goblins you have enough removals even without BEB, against Burn you can rely on Spell Pierce and other counters and try to race your op (which often does not work). And AggroLoam is not a factor in my metagame.
I do not play more the one Grip because Spell Pierce is able to counter everything that could be destroyed by Grip. And if your op forces sth. through you still can grip it, explode it or play game 3.

[undone]

The blood moon is a minor issue but the truth is that an interesting point was brought to my attention by someone. Grim lavamancer + basic island lets you effectivly ignore it if you have the island. The reason being obviously that it doesnt work.

Appearntly mancer is also hot in the white stax matchup :P (Ghostly fail)

but on the topic of basics, technechaly you could add a single land to the deck in the two flex slots heres how and why.

1) Your options for the 19th land are either a basic island for increased consistency and improved mirror matchups, or a fetch.

2) the land MUST occupy the 1st or 2nd flex slot

The reasoning being that the manabase requires the same 18 slots for consitencys sake (4 waste 8 dual 6 fetch) cutting a dual makes your deck suck as it lowers your on color sources, cutting a fetch makes brainstorm worse as well, cutting a waste is.... insane. which leaves you with the option to cut a single real card for it.

[Gibsonmac]

pardon?

decks running bloodmoon and b2b arent vulnerable to stifle and waste and predator must be on the table already/grip in ur hand.

but u can cast predator and grip when u have basic forest to get.

well, the forest helped me against choke too.

what i forgot too, extirpate on tropical is gg

Singleton Breeding Pool, swear to god man, steam vents as well

[Gibsonmac]

I also prefer a Landbase that consists of 5 different fetchlands. I do so because bluffing a stifleless deck by playing Wooded Foothills does not work anymore, because either everyone already knows what i usually play or the op already knows the bluff. Nevertheless i tend to play 2 Wooded Foothills, because we have 6 Fetchlands. So my "fetchbase" looks like that:

2 Wooded Foothills
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta

It happened to me more than ones that some ops tried to cut me from using my fetchies via Pithing Needle. Good luck trying it again ;)


I love it... I run the same fetchies... finally it's catching on... been saying it ever since sept

[Humphrey]

Btw. I think Trygon Predator does not belong into CT, because he has neither flash nor any other synergy with the deck besides Card Advantage. If i would play another creature i would without doubt go for Vendilion Clique. Because of flash and its ability to disrupt your op.

U did see the meta, didnt you?
Trygon is a beast against most Dtb too, like Countertop, Dreadstill and Merfolk. I think Ill try a shockland

[Malakai]

I've been running the standard list, with Clique, and the standard Disrupt-free sideboard, with one exception:

-1 Fire/Ice
+1 Island

I don't fetch it out against intermittent Wastelands, as playing like that tends to be incorrect. In fact, that's probably one of the reasons most of you hate basics. However, it has won me several games against decks that attempt to recur Wastelands. The other occasion is when my gameplan relies on a turn 2 Goyf, and I need to cast a Stifle/Spell Snare or something before then.

[gamegeek2]

An homage to Black Thresh:

4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
2 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Dark Confidant

4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Smother
2 Maelstrom Pulse

--- Sideboard ---
4 Submerge
4 Ghastly Demise
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
2 Threads of Disloyalty

This is mainly as a reaction to the most recent MD/NoVA legacy tourney having a T8 with 32 Force of Wills, with no Zoo in the tournament. The sideboard still takes precautions against Zoo with 10 cards to board in. I'm thinking about Deed as well, but the double colored cost is unappealing vs. Merfolk.

One may question the lack of Thoughtseize - I feel that with cards so redundant, Thoughtseize just doesn't do enough unless the meta is ENTIRELY control, which it definitely isn't.

[Citrus-God]

So you're running Black without Thoughtseize? Better yet, running Black and not playing Team America?

[BreathWeapon]

So you're running Black without Thoughtseize? Better yet, running Black and not playing Team America?

What's Thoughtseize for? The point of tempo is to force your opponent to expend resources on the cards he plays, not to expend your resources to trade 1 for 1 against the weakest cards in his grip after Brainstorm. You don't really have a lot of make or break threats to resolve, and the utility of discard goes to shit in the end game, so I don't see why Thoughtseize is remotely necessary when Force/Daze/Snare hold the line and Pierce joins the party post board.

I mean, Thought Seize makes sense in Team America because forcing Sinkhole thru' is GG and Tombstalker consumes a huge amount of your resources, that's not the case here.

[Gibsonmac]

An homage to Black Thresh:

4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
2 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Dark Confidant

4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Smother
2 Maelstrom Pulse

--- Sideboard ---
4 Submerge
4 Ghastly Demise
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
2 Threads of Disloyalty

This is mainly as a reaction to the most recent MD/NoVA legacy tourney having a T8 with 32 Force of Wills, with no Zoo in the tournament. The sideboard still takes precautions against Zoo with 10 cards to board in. I'm thinking about Deed as well, but the double colored cost is unappealing vs. Merfolk.

One may question the lack of Thoughtseize - I feel that with cards so redundant, Thoughtseize just doesn't do enough unless the meta is ENTIRELY control, which it definitely isn't.

Interesting build... would like to see a report if you ever tourney it... also, may I suggest 2-3 top... it's great with Bob, and you have enough higher casting cost things that you could sui yourself... and you could run 3-4 CB in the board... So, -1 Spell Snare, -1 Bob, +2 Top... Ideally maybe find room for 3 so possibly cut a single pulse or smother, but then the removal gets too light and that's bad...

[Humphrey]

The good about Canadian is that u can burn ur opp down when the board is stalled or ur creatures are handled. U dont have that with B. Also i think Pulse is inferior to fire/ice if u want to trade 2:1.

If id run black than Countertop, not Tempo

[GUnit]

Maelstrom Pulse seems awful. The bounce in Ugr is permissible largely because if it's drawn early it's more often than not pitched to force of will. 3 Mana is an awul lot for this deck.

Along the same vein, Snuff Out is vastly superior to Smother in a tempo deck. No contest.

Really, if you want to play black, play TA or Ubr tempo faeries. Those decks are simply better.

[johanessen]

If id run black than Countertop, not Tempo

If I'd run countertop I'd play UGw. But that's not the objective of this thread.

Playing basics is terrible for Canadian, as all people said.


Along the same vein, Snuff Out is vastly superior to Smother in a tempo deck. No contest.

Not if you play Bob.


@UGb thresh: I think this list have potencial in some metagames. If you can mantain Bob online it's the game.

[Humphrey]

Playing basics is terrible for Canadian, as all people said.



http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15505

[johanessen]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15505

What are you trying to prove? A guy that make 11th in a tournament game didn't get manascrewed once?. That's good man, but that's not what we are argueing here. Numbers talk.

[Jak]

What are you trying to prove? A guy that make 11th in a tournament game didn't get manascrewed once?. That's good man, but that's not what we are argueing here. Numbers talk.

You do realize that running 18 lands plus 2 basics has less chance of getting color screwed or mana screwed than just the 18 lands, right?

[Humphrey]

Im still not sure what happens more often. Getting screwed because of running 2 basics or getting hosed by non-basic hate.

@jak he added 2 fetches, i dont see the difference here really. with 6 fetches ur also able to get the right lands.

besides. to cast everthing in this deck u need 2 lands/3 colors. u can get that with trop+volc but also with volc+forest.
only in few situations u cast first turn goose and need island for daze. chances that opp have the waste are the same (like in my match)

[johanessen]

You do realize that running 18 lands plus 2 basics has less chance of getting color screwed or mana screwed than just the 18 lands, right?

Ups sorry i didn't realize he was playing 20 lands. I was fixed on basics vs nonbasics debate.

[Enigma]

besides. to cast everthing in this deck u need 2 lands/3 colors. u can get that with trop+volc but also with volc+forest.
only in few situations u cast first turn goose and need island for daze. chances that opp have the waste are the same (like in my match)
What you seems to forget is that sometimes you ponder @ your turn and keep 1 blue for Stifle or snare. This situation happens very very often that I'll never put a basic forest in this deck.

[Humphrey]

ill do more playtesting and see how the basics are working for me. its easy to check if the dual would be much better.

[TrialByFire]

Basic forest is so BAD for all reasons stated. Ran it as the 19th land for about 3 months. Basic Island is not that bad, ran it instead of the 4th Volc when Moons (the enchantment kind) were huge in my meta. Basic Island lets you BEB or bounce Blood Moon, very useful. As for Wasteland, if you are losing to it, play better. You have Stifle and Daze in your deck. The only times I have lost to Wasteland are Crucible/Loam lock, or when they draw 3+ in the first 5 turns. That doesn't happen often

[Humphrey]

As for Wasteland, if you are losing to it, play better. You have Stifle and Daze in your deck.

Kinda stupid statement. First of all u dont always have stifle on ur opening hand and daze is useless against it oO
As I stated, what happens more often. getting ur first trop wasted or ur stuck with only the forest

[Blitzbold]

I am playing with 3x Trop, 3x Volcanic, 1x Taiga and 1x Island + 6 fetches since more than 4 months and am still satisfied with this setup.

Until today there was just one single situation were it was bad that Taiga couldn't produce U - and in that situation it was more my fault than anything else because of tapping my mana in a greedy way.

[Purgatory]

Kinda stupid statement. First of all u dont always have stifle on ur opening hand and daze is useless against it oO
As I stated, what happens more often. getting ur first trop wasted or ur stuck with only the forest

Not entirely. I have twice (once against Eva Green, once against Team America) cast a 1-cmc spell (Lightning Bolt or Brainstorm) and then Daze'd it myself to protect my land from Wasteland. In both cases, I had mulligan'd into a hand of only one coloured land, and both times I lost anyway.

Not a play I would recommend (I recommend mulliganing again against those decks) but Daze can be used to protect yourself from Wasteland - although it results in huge card and tempo loss. Still, it might be better than a colour screw.

[undone]

There is no excuse for the forest. The basic island isnt abysmal but its just one of those things you never want to draw or have. The only REAL reason to play it would be alot of zoo in your metagame because with the island you have a path target which helps hugely.

[Blitzbold]

There is no excuse for the forest. The basic island isnt abysmal but its just one of those things you never want to draw or have. The only REAL reason to play it would be alot of zoo in your metagame because with the island you have a path target which helps hugely.

Exactly. People started to pick up Zoo lately over here so that decision was a good one.

[Raptor]

Everyone seems to run 4 Reb/pyroblast, has anyone ever considered lowing the count to 3 or even 2 with the arrival of spell pierce ?

This is my current sideboard (Notice that I almost autoloose to ichorid, but it's not really present in my current metagame, only 1 person play it);
2 Krosan Grip
3 Reb/pyro
4 Spell Pierce
4 Submerge
2 Pyroclasm


The only match up for now that I want the REB are Merfolks and to a lesser extent, combo (cantrips, or against draw engine of ichorid).

For any landstill deck, I side in the 4x spell pierce and most of the time, 2x Kgrip. Siding in the Reb if often not really useful in my testing.

Considerering we've a good match up against combo, and that pyroclasm is really good against merfolks, I'll probally do these changes : -1 reb, +1 pyroclasm.

I'll probally do another -1 reb for a ravenous trap, because there's some entomb hulk emerging.


I've not really tested the zoo match up. How positive is it ? Would cutting one submerge be a really bad idea ?

______________


For the basic land, I've found that sacrificing consistancy for like some match up that you will probally see once in 2 or 3 tournaments is not really worth it.
But, I don't understand why would you guys play an island over a forest if you really wanted to play a basic land. (I don't see the utility of a basic land except for moon effects, extirpate or path. If I were to run a basic land, I would definitly run a forest.

With an island, you still die to an extirpated Tropical, you still die do a blood moon that you could have kgrip with a forest. You can cast your threat easier vs a deck such packing wasteland.

[thefreakaccident]

I assume that this thread allows us to talk about all the tempo threshold variants... Here is a list that I concocted based off of that terrible No-Goyf deck:

lands//18
4 wasteland
4 tundra
1 island
3 tropical island
2 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
1 misty rainforest
1 scalding tarn

creatures//12
4 weathered wayferer
4 tarmogoyf
4 jotan grunt


spells//30
4 daze
4 force of will
4 spell snare
4 stifle
4 swords to plowshares

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 rushing river

The idea is simple... You have all the standard 'tempo tools', but with the addition of wayferer to help further thin out the deck, and the added LD because of his effect, it allows you to keep pressure on your opponent's manabase throughout the game.

Some problems with the list so far:
1. With swords as am 'anti-synergy' to the deck, it makes it difficult sometimes to capitalize on the turns you've gained with your acquired tempo, when your opponent has essentially gained an entire turn from a swords'd goyf/dreadnought/other big crit to recover from said tempo loss...

I do like the added synergy of grunt however, as he allows you to put more disruption/threats back into the deck, while still not crippling your goyfs (only keep em out for a couple of turns...)... It is nice to have the option of crippling goyfs though when you do not have any of your own out yet.


Things that I do like about the deck though is the fact that it doesn't seem to run out of gas like sometimes other tempo decks do (with wayferer thinning and tutoring additional disruption in the form of wasteland, and grutn to give you inevitability sometimes).


Any comments/critiques of the list would be much appreciated.

It is a 'prototype' if you will, so there are no bad ideas.

I have played a few games against a few random decks on MWS, and it seems to be running pretty good, although trygon hasn't shown up in those games, I think he could still be a big factor of the deck.

[Jayzonious]

Would TempoThresh be a good choice in an unknown meta that atleast includes some CounterTop, Zoo, Goblins, 43 Lands, and Baseruption?

I'm debating on playing TempoThresh, Zoo, or CounterTop.

Are there any sideboard changes you would make? Should I dedicate 2 slots to graveyard hate?

[Adan]

Would TempoThresh be a good choice in an unknown meta that atleast includes some CounterTop, Zoo, Goblins, 43 Lands, and Baseruption?

I'm debating on playing TempoThresh, Zoo, or CounterTop.

Tempo Thresh is good in this case, but make sure you have at least some Pithing Needles in your Sb, otherwise 43Lands will just crush you (and as long as you don't tell me how they look like, I assume they play U for Intuition -> Academy Ruins-EE-Loam which is GG for them).

But Zoo and Goblins are very nice, you just steamroll them with TT.

CounterTop and/or Baseruption on the other hand require you to play a very aggressive role, this is where you have to prove your skills actually.
SDT can also be a pain in the ass and never let CB resolve or you're dead.


Are there any sideboard changes you would make? Should I dedicate 2 slots to graveyard hate?

No need for that.

edit: Basic Lands provide stability, but at the same time inconsistency. With more consistency, you don't need stability (that's actually how TT rolls all the time since... 3 years?!). Conclusion: forget about Basic Lands!

[Jayzonious]

Yeah, I was thinking about this as a sideboard:

2 Krosan Grip
4 Pyroblast
3 Pyroclasm
4 Submerge
2 Pithing Needle

[firstshot]

Adan: How are you steamrolling zoo? I've played the matchup enough recently where they feel favored and not me. Postboard is better but still not great. Are your opponents playing around daze?

[Raptor]

Adan: How are you steamrolling zoo? I've played the matchup enough recently where they feel favored and not me. Postboard is better but still not great. Are your opponents playing around daze?

Playing around daze with a zoo is often not the best idea except if you need to land key spell such as Swords or tarmogoyf. They are loosing a lot of tempo.

Post board, you have submerge (I personally run 4 of them) and it can act as a removal if you submerge a creature in response of a fetch and you can almost timewalk them if you reput a creature on top of their library.

Plus, if they are running a lot of burns / jitte / Path / swords, you can side in spell pierce.

[Happy Gilmore]

Although I do fairly well against Canadian Threshold with Zoo I can tell you that TT is favored. 60:40 in Thresh's favor post board as well. Things have been much better with my current board but still, submerge is a killer(This card should always be a 4x in the deck's sb). REB is useless against them and their BEBS are removal spells. You have no real answers to goose and that is what wins most games. In my estimation Tempo thresh seems absolutely amazing when it draws the right answers and enough threats, but at the same time can be very inconsistent.

[Jayzonious]

I did some play testing tonight against Zoo, and it didn't seem anywhere near an auto-win. The pithing needles were useful post sideboard by naming Umezawa's Jitte or Grim Lavamancer.

[miko]

I do not think that you need needle vs. jitte. Your op should usually not be able to get jitte only. Either you burn their creatures, or tap them out or just counter jitte. I have never seen an opposing jitte with counters on it against yet.
Grim Lavamancer is not a thread either, I think, due to its weak body. He provides you the very best fire-target.

[Gibsonmac]

I do not think that you need needle vs. jitte. Your op should usually not be able to get jitte only. Either you burn their creatures, or tap them out or just counter jitte. I have never seen an opposing jitte with counters on it against yet.
Grim Lavamancer is not a thread either, I think, due to its weak body. He provides you the very best fire-target.

yeah, wtf with bringing in needle against zoo?? goblins, sure... top, definitely... zoo? wtf?

[goobafish]

Played in a 45 man Lotus event yesterday, I didn't take notes, so I can only write a mini-report for you guys. The only changes were Pierce>Disrupt and T-Crypt over K-Grip in the sideboard.

Round 1: Belcher
2-0
Spell Pierces are amazing.

Round 2: Ichorid
2-0
Game 1 I win the die roll, and had a daze for his first discard outlet. I also got turn 3 goyf, which went all the way after he declines to block and I have 2 burn spells to finish him off.
Game 2 He goes the Draw, Discard plan, but his dredges aren't great. I keep a hand of 2 goyfs and a pyroclasm, and never need to use the clasm.

Round 3: MonoU Painter/Naught
2-1
Game 1 he lands an early Dreadnaught, and I don't have the bounce.
Game 2 he tries for the Dreadnaught off the ancient tomb, I daze hoping he was attempting the trickbind and he was. I wasteland his tomb, stifle his chrome moxen, and pierce/reb all his cantrips to keep him locked out of mana.
Game 3 I keep a hand of almost all counters. Eventually he lands a painter and a grindstone with 2 lands in play vs my nimble mongoose. I counter every cantrip/top with pierce and reb, he never gets the third land to activate the stone.

Round 4: Bant Tempo Threshold
2-0
Game 1 I drew 2 wastelands and a stifle, I only saw lands from him, nothing else.
Game 2 I wasteland his first land drop, which he stifles, I force and he has no second land.

Round 5: Teammate playing U/W Landstill
I concede to him so that we both have guaranteed top 8 slots.
Round 6: Mirror, ID

Top 8: Teammate playing U/W Landstill
2-1
Game 1: I play a turn 2 and turn 3 tarmogoyf (only 2/3s) and get him down to 9 life. He drops a moat while he has 2 factories and 3 conclaves in play. The couple turns later, I wipe away the moat and bash in to take him to 3 life. He plays the moat and passes, I bolt with double daze for his counterspell.
Game 2: Spell pierces are really good for his brainstorms/standstills, I land a goose, he tries for ee, I triple force it, and he lands a Baneslayer angel the next turn, which I can't deal with.
Game 3: Crazy game. I open with Goose and Goyf he plays a few factories and a morphed exalted angel, with no second white to flip it over. He double blocks my Goyf with his morphed angel and factory, then plays a second morph. I attack with my goose into the morph and a factory, holding a stifle for the factory if he chooses to block, but he takes the damage. He rips the second white for the angel, but i stifle the lifelink trigger, and swing back with my goose. He swings with the angel, I wipe away, then force. He kills the goose with EE. and swings with two conclaves evening the life totals at 3 apiece. I have 3 bolts in my deck, I need to draw a Bolt or ponder/brainstorm into bolt to win the match. I slam my draw for turn on the table....BOLT!

Top 4: Goyfless Aggro Loam
These games were pretty bad for my opponent, I had multiple Tarmogoyfs and 2-3 dazes each game, along with enough stifles for his wastelands. He didn't resolve any spells besides a Chalice@1 after I had 2 goyfs and a goose on board, which allowed me to play my second goose into the chalice to get thresh + creature in yard for goyf.

Finals: Mono-Red Goblins
2-1
Game 1: I mulliganed a hand I should have kept, it didn't have an answer for turn 1 vial or lackey, but it had a fire ice, cantrips and lands. My six was better, but I was tempoed out with Stingscouger on my goyfs.
Game 2: I drop 2 early goyfs with lots of dazes/forces to take care of his army.
Game 3: My opponent makes a critical mistake of wastelanding my untapped land during his mainstep, and I have the stifle. If he had done it during my upkeep, I would have been forced to stifle, and his second wasteland would have killed my only land. He uses both wastelands on me eventually, but I drew 3 lands off my brainstorm, and am in good shape. The wastelands set him back, and I am able to land a pair of Goyfs and daze all his plays.

Spell pierces are amazing.

[santeria]

Adan: How are you steamrolling zoo? I've played the matchup enough recently where they feel favored and not me. Postboard is better but still not great. Are your opponents playing around daze?

thats cause adan plays swan thresh cause its superior to tt, see like over 9000 pages back. steamrolling zoo with janky combo ftw!

[Adan]

thats cause adan plays swan thresh cause its superior to tt, see like over 9000 pages back. steamrolling zoo with janky combo ftw!

Not quite, Swans actually suck against everything that plays Burn. The reason why Swanthresh would wreck Zoo is Counterbalance and 7-8 Burnspells that can kill every non-Goyfs.

But now for TT:

The most popular Zoo decks here are RGW which makes them very vulnerable to the Stifle-Waste plan, on the one hand because you can colorscrew then easily and on the other because it makes Daze way more stronger. If we consider Daze a hardcounter then it makes a total of 12 hardcounters (Spell Snare countery like EVERY relevant thing they play).

The 8 Burnspells are also excellent and postboard I usually substitute the bounces for EE and Pyroclasm. Submerges are also very cool as well as BEBs if you play them.

[Purgatory]

I've been doing a lot of testing and changing slots in my sideboard lately and all I can say is that Krosan Grip is the one card I side in the least and Spell Pierce is probably the best thing that came out of Zendikar for my deck.

So far, this is where I am right now:

3 Spell Pierce
1 Echoing Truth (the flex-slot left in the board)
3 Submerge
3 REB
2 Pyroclasm
3 Tormod's Crypt

I am attending a tournament in about a week, and the metagame is pretty much unknown to me. I think this is about as good as the side will get, maybe -1 Echoing Truth, +1 Submerge.

[Raptor]

Played in a 45 man Lotus event yesterday, I didn't take notes, so I can only write a mini-report for you guys. The only changes were Pierce>Disrupt and T-Crypt over K-Grip in the sideboard.

Round 1: Belcher
2-0
Spell Pierces are amazing.

Round 2: Ichorid
2-0
Game 1 I win the die roll, and had a daze for his first discard outlet. I also got turn 3 goyf, which went all the way after he declines to block and I have 2 burn spells to finish him off.
Game 2 He goes the Draw, Discard plan, but his dredges aren't great. I keep a hand of 2 goyfs and a pyroclasm, and never need to use the clasm.

Round 3: MonoU Painter/Naught
2-1
Game 1 he lands an early Dreadnaught, and I don't have the bounce.
Game 2 he tries for the Dreadnaught off the ancient tomb, I daze hoping he was attempting the trickbind and he was. I wasteland his tomb, stifle his chrome moxen, and pierce/reb all his cantrips to keep him locked out of mana.
Game 3 I keep a hand of almost all counters. Eventually he lands a painter and a grindstone with 2 lands in play vs my nimble mongoose. I counter every cantrip/top with pierce and reb, he never gets the third land to activate the stone.

Round 4: Bant Tempo Threshold
2-0
Game 1 I drew 2 wastelands and a stifle, I only saw lands from him, nothing else.
Game 2 I wasteland his first land drop, which he stifles, I force and he has no second land.

Round 5: Teammate playing U/W Landstill
I concede to him so that we both have guaranteed top 8 slots.
Round 6: Mirror, ID

Top 8: Teammate playing U/W Landstill
2-1
Game 1: I play a turn 2 and turn 3 tarmogoyf (only 2/3s) and get him down to 9 life. He drops a moat while he has 2 factories and 3 conclaves in play. The couple turns later, I wipe away the moat and bash in to take him to 3 life. He plays the moat and passes, I bolt with double daze for his counterspell.
Game 2: Spell pierces are really good for his brainstorms/standstills, I land a goose, he tries for ee, I triple force it, and he lands a Baneslayer angel the next turn, which I can't deal with.
Game 3: Crazy game. I open with Goose and Goyf he plays a few factories and a morphed exalted angel, with no second white to flip it over. He double blocks my Goyf with his morphed angel and factory, then plays a second morph. I attack with my goose into the morph and a factory, holding a stifle for the factory if he chooses to block, but he takes the damage. He rips the second white for the angel, but i stifle the lifelink trigger, and swing back with my goose. He swings with the angel, I wipe away, then force. He kills the goose with EE. and swings with two conclaves evening the life totals at 3 apiece. I have 3 bolts in my deck, I need to draw a Bolt or ponder/brainstorm into bolt to win the match. I slam my draw for turn on the table....BOLT!

Top 4: Goyfless Aggro Loam
These games were pretty bad for my opponent, I had multiple Tarmogoyfs and 2-3 dazes each game, along with enough stifles for his wastelands. He didn't resolve any spells besides a Chalice@1 after I had 2 goyfs and a goose on board, which allowed me to play my second goose into the chalice to get thresh + creature in yard for goyf.

Finals: Mono-Red Goblins
2-1
Game 1: I mulliganed a hand I should have kept, it didn't have an answer for turn 1 vial or lackey, but it had a fire ice, cantrips and lands. My six was better, but I was tempoed out with Stingscouger on my goyfs.
Game 2: I drop 2 early goyfs with lots of dazes/forces to take care of his army.
Game 3: My opponent makes a critical mistake of wastelanding my untapped land during his mainstep, and I have the stifle. If he had done it during my upkeep, I would have been forced to stifle, and his second wasteland would have killed my only land. He uses both wastelands on me eventually, but I drew 3 lands off my brainstorm, and am in good shape. The wastelands set him back, and I am able to land a pair of Goyfs and daze all his plays.

Spell pierces are amazing.

Nice report, but I'm pretty sure you can't stifle the lifelink ability, I think it's considered as a static ability since M10.

[Otter]

Nice report, but I'm pretty sure you can't stifle the lifelink ability, I think it's considered as a static ability since M10.

Cards that have the trigger written out (except Loxodon Warhammer) are all still triggered. It's only static if it says lifelink.

[Jayzonious]

Wow, just played against Lands for the first time. That match up seems very difficult. Does anyone have any advice for SBing or just general strategy against that deck?

[johanessen]

Wow, just played against Lands for the first time. That match up seems very difficult. Does anyone have any advice for SBing or just general strategy against that deck?

Depends on builds but you need graveyard hate and maybe k-grip.

[Raptor]

Cards that have the trigger written out (except Loxodon Warhammer) are all still triggered. It's only static if it says lifelink.

Really ? Thanks for letting me know, I was pretty sure that "Whenever blabla deals combat damage, you gain that much life" had a change in the oracle text for "lifelink".



Wow, just played against Lands for the first time. That match up seems very difficult. Does anyone have any advice for SBing or just general strategy against that deck?

Lands is one of our worst match up, almost everything they have is "the nuts" against us. You have to hope for them having a bad hand or countering every of their relevant spells.

[Otter]

Really ? Thanks for letting me know, I was pretty sure that "Whenever blabla deals combat damage, you gain that much life" had a change in the oracle text for "lifelink".

That's the stupid thing -- they did. Pre-M10, cards like Exalted Angel and Armadillo Cloak actually had been errata'd to the lifelink keyword. Then for the M10 update they undid all of those because they just kinda felt like it. Anyways, I'll stop derailing the thread to complain about the idiocy of it, but the long and short of it is you can stifle Exalted Angel but not Baneslayer Angel.

[Purgatory]

Wow, just played against Lands for the first time. That match up seems very difficult. Does anyone have any advice for SBing or just general strategy against that deck?

As mentioned, graveyard hate is important. I play against Lands much in the same way as Loam. Hope to get the nuts in game 1, counter Loam every time and then side in Crypts for games 2 and 3.

[dtrooper]

A single Price of Progress kills the deck...

[justMAD]

A single Price of Progress kills the deck...

I've never taken more than 4 damage from a resolved Price of Progress...
The deck offers you many solutions:
Spell Snare, Force of Will, Daze, not putting to much land on the battlefield, as it isn't needed...

Mr. Caplan, why do you play a single crypt instead of the grip? Is the bounce and spell pierce enough to deal with artifacts and enchantments?

I never tested it, as in my meta there are always 2 Enchantress and 2-3 Staxx (Forcing me to run 2 Tragon Predator main, clunky beast) and running 2 Grip in SB...

[o13g]

I've never taken more than 4 damage from a resolved Price of Progress...
The deck offers you many solutions:
Spell Snare, Force of Will, Daze, not putting to much land on the battlefield, as it isn't needed...


I'm pretty sure dtrooper meant PoP kills Lands.

[kabal]

I've never taken more than 4 damage from a resolved Price of Progress...


He was referring to Lands.dec, not TT.

[justMAD]

Head --> Desk

Makes sense...

[goobafish]

Mr. Caplan, why do you play a single crypt instead of the grip? Is the bounce and spell pierce enough to deal with artifacts and enchantments?


Just trying something new. Wanted one more card against Ichorid/Reanimator/43 Lands/Loam, because Spell Pierce takes care a lot of problem artifacts and enchantments.

[TrialByFire]

Lands is tough. You have to land an early creature (mongoose is key because they can't Maze it, two Mongeese usually wins) then you just cant let Loam resolve. Ever. Save Wastelands for Mazes and just hope to overwhelm them in the first couple turns. I usually side out 2 Fire/Ice and a Daze for Spell pierce x3, but my board looks like this:

4x Submerge
3x Spell Pierce
2x Pyroclasm
4x REB/Pyro
1x Grip
1x EE

Its definitely not in our favor but I have beat it 2/3 times I've faced it in tounaments

[The Duressed]

What have everyone's experiences been with the zoo matchup? What sideboard plans have you been using?

[Gibsonmac]

What have everyone's experiences been with the zoo matchup? What sideboard plans have you been using?

read the thread and you'll see :smile: :smile:

[The Duressed]

I did. It usually ends up breaking down to an argument about how many Price of Progress. Someone says "I don't have that many lands in play during PoP." Then someone talks about basic lands. Then we talk about 43 Lands. What I'd like to know is what sideboard plans people are using, and why.

[Jayzonious]

Against Zoo I usually do -2 Ponder -2 Vendilion Clique +4x Submerge

[jazzykat]

I was playing the "standard list" with 2 Cliques in the flex spot. Yesterday I played against BGw Loam Pox and it was brutal. I managed to pull out a game vs. him by stifling his fetch keeping him off BB but in general the match up IMO is abysmmal for me.

How is the matchup for you guys and what do you do besides side in crypts to combat it?

[DerFern]

How is the matchup for you guys and what do you do besides side in crypts to combat it?
Basically playing the mana denial plan works fine. Use EE to blow up their Moxes and have it ready in case they´re playing Worm Harvest. If they go nuts on their first three turn with recurring LftL and Cycling you´ll have a hard time, but if you disrupt them early everything should be fine.

[Joon]

Do you play Spell Pierce in the side? It helps by stopping nearly everything they play besides their win options, it is also good to keep countering Loams when you have Wasteland and/or Stifle. I'd board Spell Pierces and Crypts for cc3 spells which are often too slow to be effective (speaking of Bounce and/or Clique, but Clique's quite good at handling Loam). Burn could also be boarded out I guess.

[Volrath]

For some odd reason, the Rock is heavilly played arround here.

How can is consitently beat this deck?, i already play 4 submerge in my board.

[GUnit]

Volrath, what does the rest of your board look like? Spell pierce (or divert! ^_^) should be great against Rock-like decks.

How are you losing these matchups?

[Volrath]

my board looks like this atm

4 submerge
4 spell pierce
2 pyroclasm
2 krosan grip
3 tormod's crypt

Finks and Stalkers are very bad news...

[Joon]

Stifle+Removal/Critter for Persist, Spell Pierce/Daze with Wasteland/Stifle against their expensive Spells, Mungos are key as most Rockvariants only play Deed as a global removal (which is also a good target for stifle).

Bounce helps against Stalker.

Snares are great against Goyfs and Confidants. I never had that much trouble with Rock - it gets much worse when they land a top though. A pair of Needles in the board could help this - Needle's also good against Deed and Stronghold.

I'd board in 4 Submerge and 4 Spell Pierce, but it's difficult to board stuff out. Fire/Ice helps by Port-ing lands to delay Deeds/Vindicates and kills Birds/Hierarchs/Pridemages/Confidants/Witnesses/Finks. Maybe you could board out Bolts as they don't kill more stuff than F/I. One could also board out Dazes when otD.

[Skiller]

Do you really think that "Spell Pierce" is worth it ? Is it really better than "Red Elemental Blast" ? If yes, in which matchups do you usually side it in and what do you take out for it ?

[Joon]

At the moment I play both and like it. Pierce can counter annoying stuff like Tops (!), Vials and Planeswalkers (like all the time as they cost 3+ mana).

[johanessen]

Do you play Spell Pierce in the side? It helps by stopping nearly everything they play besides their win options, it is also good to keep countering Loams when you have Wasteland and/or Stifle. I'd board Spell Pierces and Crypts for cc3 spells which are often too slow to be effective (speaking of Bounce and/or Clique, but Clique's quite good at handling Loam). Burn could also be boarded out I guess.

Burn gets rid of confidants and crushers, even reliquarys after a crypt. I usually side out daze on the play

[GUnit]

Skiller, spell pierce is a brick mo-fuggin' house! Definitely the MVP of the sideboard for me last tournament.

[Kanabo]

my board looks like this atm

4 submerge
4 spell pierce
2 pyroclasm
2 krosan grip
3 tormod's crypt

Finks and Stalkers are very bad news...

have you considered firespout? seems better than pyroclasm for mass removel.

[Atog]

have you considered firespout? seems better than pyroclasm for mass removel.

It kills threshed mongoose, pyroclasm doesn't usually.

[GUnit]

Aside from that, spout costing an additional mana is also relevant. The only three mana spells in the deck are late-game spells (wipe away and RR), whereas clasm is something you typically want to be able to play as early as you can in the matchups where you board it in.

[gdtpara]

Basically playing the mana denial plan works fine. Use EE to blow up their Moxes and have it ready in case they´re playing Worm Harvest. If they go nuts on their first three turn with recurring LftL and Cycling you´ll have a hard time, but if you disrupt them early everything should be fine.

I agree with you. As soon as their loam engine is running, mana denial work is all gone. I often loose to rock/doran rock too. I'm playing a sideboard with 3 submerge+ 3 Mind harness now.

[Maagler]

I agree with you. As soon as their loam engine is running, mana denial work is all gone. I often loose to rock/doran rock too. I'm playing a sideboard with 3 submerge+ 3 Mind harness now.

Has mind harness been working for you? It seems like it would be hard to maintain since you have to pay the upkeep cost.

[keys]

Has mind harness been working for you? It seems like it would be hard to maintain since you have to pay the upkeep cost.

Yeah my games never end very quickly. I'd rather try out Threads of Disloyalty.

[miko]

What do you guys need extra removal? I mean don't you already have Submerge, Lightning Bolt, Fire/Ice, and not to forget EE.
If i would ad removal I would certainly ad another EE. Because everything you can handle with Threads can be handled with EE, too. It even kills 3cc Creatures and other things like Enchantress.

[Purgatory]

What do you guys need extra removal? I mean don't you already have Submerge, Lightning Bolt, Fire/Ice, and not to forget EE.
If i would ad removal I would certainly ad another EE. Because everything you can handle with Threads can be handled with EE, too. It even kills 3cc Creatures and other things like Enchantress.

Sometimes stealing a Goyf/Dreadnought is cooler than killing it ;)

[Bluemagex2517]

I've been having serious success with this list in my testing:

Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [FUT] Grove of the Burnwillows
3 [B] Tropical Island
3 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn

Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

Spells
4 [ZEN] Punishing Fire
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [M10] Lightning Bolt
4 [SC] Stifle

Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 4 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 1 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [OV] Pyroblast


I view merfolk and zoo as relatively tough match-ups for Canadian thresh in general, and grove/punishing really helps those MUs. I thought I should ask people more in tune with the archetype what MU I'm making worse.

[GUnit]

Sorry, how does cutting four spell snares, which are great against zoo and merfolk, for four lands make those matchups better? Punishing fire seems fine against folk, until they waste your grove, but it doesn't seem good against zoo.

All that is beside the point anyway as merfolk and zoo aren't bad matchups for this deck to begin with!

[Gibsonmac]

4 [ZEN] Punishing Fire


Seriously... this is a joke right? punishing fire!? really?!? you cannot tell me this has proven better in testing than a billion other cards that would actually be relevant.


You are making every MU worse, you might loose to a standard legal jund deck, thats how bad you just fucked your deck

[gdtpara]

Submerge is really cool, it helps to clean the way for last damage and can be a cool burn if stalker+bob is in play. But when they almost have all their life and that only goose stay on the table, i like to take their faties to hit them fast and bring them to the red blast zone. Also, i prefer mind harness to Thread cause it can take terravore, crusher and knight of reliquary.

[Svenyboy]

What do you think is better at the moment? Merfolk or Canadian Thresh?

[TrialByFire]

Tempo Thresh, Merfolk gets crushed by Zoo

[Svenyboy]

I saw there are some list without red, only Ug? Do you think this list are playable or outdated?
http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Threshold+UG&format=Legacy

[Gibsonmac]

I saw there are some list without red, only Ug? Do you think this list are playable or outdated?
http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Threshold+UG&format=Legacy

the problem is that you lose all of the removal that pwns zoo and fish and whatever else... there's a reason why there was a huge shift to canadian... it is the best tempo thresh period.

[gamegeek2]

I've been fooling around with a black threshold build recently (taking a break from CounterTop and I wanted to try something other Canadian), and have decided to test it in a small, organized MWS tourney.

I've made videos so you can see the deck in action (I'll keep my exact list secret for now, though).

Here are the Round 1 videos, vs NO Bant

Round 1, Game 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pPWGThhCFg)
Round 1, Game 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNSJs_Dbuf8)

I'll try to have the 3rd game up later tonight.

[gamegeek2]

EDIT: Double post - plz delete.

[miko]

Watching MWS games on youtube is not really that exiting.

But: I appreciate that you have another try on BUG-Thresh. Btw.
It would have been more interesting if you had posted a tournament report instead of posting the video.
And i would like to encourage you to stick to BUG-Threshold just for the sake of improving already existing attempts.

[Purgatory]

Haha, never seen one trade Progenitus for Bob.

[gamegeek2]

Watching MWS games on youtube is not really that exiting.

But: I appreciate that you have another try on BUG-Thresh. Btw.
It would have been more interesting if you had posted a tournament report instead of posting the video.
And i would like to encourage you to stick to BUG-Threshold just for the sake of improving already existing attempts.

The thing is, the tournament isn't over (each round lasts about a week so people can get their games in)

I will post further updates in this thread.

[gamegeek2]

I've added the last two videos, round 1 is now fully up:

Playlist here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pPWGThhCFg&feature=PlayList&p=D389C3957646B36B&index=0)

[Humphrey]

wow, what bad plays mixed with the stupid shuffle of mws

whatever you test/play there, it has no value

[fallenphoenix]

I've added the last two videos, round 1 is now fully up:

Playlist here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pPWGThhCFg&feature=PlayList&p=D389C3957646B36B&index=0)

Ugh, that was ugly to watch, some really gross play mistakes there.

Like, nor playing around Daze, not using Wasteland correctly, not using Force correctly, not using your Removal correctly... etc.

[gamegeek2]

Some of the plays in game 3 may look funny because I was trying to play around Natural Order (my deck has no outs to it).

If you're questioning the play in game 1 where I Forced his Hierarch, note he was on the play and mulled to 5. I was holding a Wasteland, so I figured I could cut him off by killing two mana sources (he had played a Trop). His only out to these combined plays would be daze, and he mulled to 5, so that was unlikely.

[fallenphoenix]

Yeah, I see what you were aiming at, but I think it's still a miserable play.
If he mulls to five you can pretty much shut down any business he has with Daze and Force and crush him /w Goyf. Hierarch won't hinder that game plan.

In T3 you play Tarmogoyf into a potential Daze, then drop your Wasteland, then don't use it until 2 turns later without ever tapping it for mana, giving your opponent the opportunity to cast Warmonk. Doh.

Imo the correct line of play is:

Opp: Hierarch.
You: Ponder, draw BS, leave Confi on top.
Opp: If he plays Warmonk you might want to daze here, if he drops Pridemage you're just fine.
You: Confi /w Daze+Force backup.
....
You: Waste his green source and smother his Hierarch if you feel like it.


€dith: I just watched your G2 which is just as horrible.
Why do you never use the Wasteland you're holding, to shut him of green, blue and the ability to daze? It's pretty obvious he doesn't have another blue/green source.
Also, you're literally begging to get dazed almost every single time you play a relevant spell.

For example: As soon as you ponder into Smother, you have two agreeable lines of play:
a) Play Smother right away or during their upkeep, to get around a Daze or Spell Snare (or even Force) they might draw.
b) Wait until your next turn, draw the Ponder you put on top, Ponder for some business or protection after fetching away the additional land on top, THEN smother their goyf.
This let's them bash face for one more turn but plays around daze and might be the safest way to get rid of their beatstick.

NOT a option:
c) Playing right into any possible answer they might find by letting them untap AND draw a card.

[gamegeek2]

He was out of cards on turn 3, so it didn't matter. And I recall distinctly thinking about daze, then noticing he was out of cards (and subsequently not caring). Not entirely sure why I decided against wasting immediately, I believe it's because he had a fetch in play and I wanted to give him the opportunity to make a mistake by attacking into goyf, then pumping it to 4/5.

Yes, yes, I did make several pretty bad play mistakes. I'm still fairly new to this deck. Of course I wouldn't take this deck to a tourney (not yet anyways), I would play a slightly altered version of the CounterTop list I top8d with last time I played in a major tourney.

Thx for the comments. Next round I'll try to play better.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Quick question:

I only have 3 Volcanic Islands. Should I go with 1x basic Island or the 7th fetchland, and why?

[Arsenal]

For BUG Thresh (non-CounterTop), is Spell Snare still considered to be better than Spell Pierce? I know Snare helps in the Zoo and other aggro-centric matchups, but Pierce is just a monster versus creature-light aggro-control decks, combo, and control decks. Thoughts?

[firstshot]

Quick question:

I only have 3 Volcanic Islands. Should I go with 1x basic Island or the 7th fetchland, and why?

7th fetch

[Happy Gilmore]

For BUG Thresh (non-CounterTop), is Spell Snare still considered to be better than Spell Pierce? I know Snare helps in the Zoo and other aggro-centric matchups, but Pierce is just a monster versus creature-light aggro-control decks, combo, and control decks. Thoughts?

Since BUG has multiple ways to answer a goyf, its possible to justify Spell Pierce instead. Countering SDT is very good.

[gamegeek2]

Since BUG has multiple ways to answer a goyf, its possible to justify Spell Pierce instead. Countering SDT is very good.

Yeah, sounds good. My list doesn't have pierce, but here's the sideboard:

4 Ghastly Demise
4 Submerge
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip

I only went with 2 Grips because Deed and Pulse can also deal with CB/Top. I was very wary of the deck's weakness to Zoo, and have 10 cards for the matchup.

Ghastly Demise is pretty much a better Swords in this deck.

[Happy Gilmore]

Yeah, sounds good. My list doesn't have pierce, but here's the sideboard:

4 Ghastly Demise
4 Submerge
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip

I only went with 2 Grips because Deed and Pulse can also deal with CB/Top. I was very wary of the deck's weakness to Zoo, and have 10 cards for the matchup.

Ghastly Demise is pretty much a better Swords in this deck.

Patrick Chapin was raving around Pierce all through the Vestal Tournament and I concur with him, the card is crazy good. If its not in the main it should be in the board. I think Deed should be either the Pierce or Maelstrom Pulse, that is just me.

Try
4 Submerge
2 Grip
3 Crypt
4 Pierce
2 EE

That might work for you. Yes, EE is symetrically, but you can usually get advantage out of it while not blowing up your own creatures.

[gamegeek2]

Yeah, Deed can easily be swapped with EE. (I also actually own 3 EE :D)

[miko]

4 Submerge
2 Grip
3 Crypt
4 Pierce
2 EE


You should not need Grip anymore if you are playing 4 Spell Pierce, because they will counter anything that Grip is able to grip ;)
I would also try to cut one or two Crypts and try to play at least 2 REB. Because as soon as you reach the higher tables, you will have to face a lot of blue decks. I guess that you want to reach higher tables, don't you.

[Purgatory]

You should not need Grip anymore if you are playing 4 Spell Pierce, because they will counter anything that Grip is able to grip ;)
I would also try to cut one or two Crypts and try to play at least 2 REB. Because as soon as you reach the higher tables, you will have to face a lot of blue decks. I guess that you want to reach higher tables, don't you.

You can still grip some stuff (like Phyrexian Dreadnought) that Pierce can't touch. In any case, I found myself boarding in Grips less and less a while ago, and cut them completely. In the sideboard above, I'd go -2 Grips, -1 Crypt, +3 REB / Pyroblast.

[gamegeek2]

You can still grip some stuff (like Phyrexian Dreadnought) that Pierce can't touch. In any case, I found myself boarding in Grips less and less a while ago, and cut them completely. In the sideboard above, I'd go -2 Grips, -1 Crypt, +3 REB / Pyroblast.

...We're discussing my Black Thresh list...

[Arsenal]

This is the UGb list I'm running:

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Vendillion Clique

4 Smother

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Stifle
4 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea

Sideboard:

4 Krosan Grip
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Hydroblast
3 Pithing Needle

The sideboard is undecided, but I feel okay about the maindeck. The question I'm running across is whether I should just go 20 land and sport more of a Baseruption package, or stick to the 18 land Threshold look.

[gamegeek2]

I thought about Clique, but Maelstrom Pulse has been amazing in its place. It's a catch-all answer for many permanents this deck can't normally deal with (at least in the maindeck, e.g. Counterbalance) and is additional removal.

[Glorfindel]

You can still grip some stuff (like Phyrexian Dreadnought) that Pierce can't touch.
You could try to Pierce Stifle, though.

[johanessen]

I'd like to see this thread divided into: Canadian Threshold and UGb Threshold. Anyone?

[miko]

I would not really divide the thread but recommend posting a BUG-Tempothresh-Primer in the Established Decks section and discuss BUG-Thresh there.
I think gamegeek2 has experience with this deck. He might want to write the Primer.

[Volrath]

I second this motion, the thread is really getting annoying when you have to sift through 2 different decks.

P.s. Spell Pierce is amazing.

[Arsenal]

I thought about Clique, but Maelstrom Pulse has been amazing in its place. It's a catch-all answer for many permanents this deck can't normally deal with (at least in the maindeck, e.g. Counterbalance) and is additional removal.

Yeah, that Vendillion Clique is my "flex" slot; it could be Trygon Predator (allowing me to play around with the Krosan Grip slot in the sideboard), Maelstrom Pulse, etc.

I chose Clique because (a.) I wanted a slightly higher threat density, and (b.) because I do not run Thoughtseize, I still wanted to retain some "surprise, surprise" pro-active disruption to mess the opponent; Clique accomplishes both goals nicely. Pulse seems a bit overcosted and it's Sorcery speed, I'd rather just run Putrefy as I suspect you're going to be using Pulse on opposing creatures the majority of the time.

[Enigma]

I second this motion, the thread is really getting annoying when you have to sift through 2 different decks.

P.s. Spell Pierce is amazing.
Back in the days we had UGR Cb Top and Tempo Thresh in the same thread and we were able to make the compromise. I'm sure we can still do it with different tempo oriented deck. Come on guys.

UGB Tempo doesn't run Thoughtseize? Or it just never did?

P-M

[Volrath]

I don't say it's impossible, yust very annoying.

[gamegeek2]

Back in the days we had UGR Cb Top and Tempo Thresh in the same thread and we were able to make the compromise. I'm sure we can still do it with different tempo oriented deck. Come on guys.

UGB Tempo doesn't run Thoughtseize? Or it just never did?

P-M

It did, but it forced you to cut utility like Pulse. That and it's bad against aggro, which is your worst matchup. I like playing Pulse a lot more.

I could write a different thread, but Canadian Thresh and Black Thresh follow the EXACT SAME skeleton, with 4 Sea over 4 Volcanic and 8 black cards over 8 red cards (plus 2 utility)

[kabal]

Here (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29640) (also posted below) is a list that was recently posted on Deckcheck.net that does play Thoughtseize main. If memory serves me correct, most BUG versions did. A quick scan of top 8s with core tempo threshold cards + Dark Confidant + Thoughtseize yielded 27 decks.


4 Dark Confidant
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize

2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Extirpate
4 Hydroblast
4 Krosan Grip
4 Tormod's Crypt




I could write a different thread, but Canadian Thresh and Black Thresh follow the EXACT SAME skeleton, with 4 Sea over 4 Volcanic and 8 black cards over 8 red cards (plus 2 utility)

While this is true, I just don't see Confidant as a tempo-based card. Does not help gain threshold and forces you to tap out to play something that isn't Goyf. Not to mention, with the raise of Zoo-ish type decks and Merfolk, I think the red version is superior.

[sauce]

wholly agree with poster above, red is superior to black in this deck, it does what you need it to do, get the damage through before lategame happens for your opponent.

this deck is notoriously terrible in "lategame" because it's spells lose power, stifle/wasteland are awful when your opponent has 4 lands in play... yadda yadda yadda.

plus red cleans up little monkeys and cats for your mongoose to get through.

[gamegeek2]

Just won another round, wasn't against an established archetype so I won't bother linking it. You can find it on my youtube channel if you want, though.

Dark Confidant was an all-star this round, and he's really good in this deck. However, if I were to replace him/move him to the board, I would maindeck Ghastly Demise, which is sick good removal in Thresh.

[rsaunder]

I think it's more ironic that the UGb Thrash gets "DTB" status on the back of UGr thrash.

Bob and thoughtseize are not tempo cards. In fact, they are the antithesis of tempo. If red did not exist, it would be okay, but the reach is the most deadly part of the deck.

I can't even think of a metagame in which I'd rather have black, to be honest.

[kabal]

I think it's more ironic that the UGb Thrash gets "DTB" status on the back of UGr thrash.

+1

[EternalDragon09]

what the hell is this of Ugb trash on the tail coats of tempo thresh its very annoying i agree with previous inquirys about this motion and it should indeed be cleaned up and focused on one topic!:mad:

[gamegeek2]

As you guys insist, I will make a new topic for this in Established Decks. However, please note that this thread was designed to include ALL tempo thresh decks and not just canadian.

In no way am I advocating this over Canadian Thresh (nor am I saying this is a DtB). I'm just testing an alternative out.

[miko]

As you guys insist, I will make a new topic for this in Established Decks. However, please note that this thread was designed to include ALL tempo thresh decks and not just canadian.

In no way am I advocating this over Canadian Thresh (nor am I saying this is a DtB). I'm just testing an alternative out.

+ 1 ;)
It's true, first attempts on other tempo thresholddecks should start in this topic. But as long as there are no primers online, sb has to start posting one. Only with a thread of its own new decks can develope.

[Koby]

I also agree that UGb Thresh is piggybacking on Red Thresh. The two decks play out completely different, with the only control element they share is the Stifle/Wasteland bit. Team America is just as much "Tempo" in that respect and much moreso than UGb that's floating in the last few pages. Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant don't make it tempo.

I find myself boarding out Fire/Ice in every game I play. Is there a better card that can fit in that slot? It's always useful, but never focused enough to remain in the deck.

Against Dredge, +4 Ravenous Trap +3 Crypt (-3 Fire/Ice -1 Vendilion Clique, -1 Ponder, -1 Rushing River, -1 Nimble Mongoose)
Against Combo, +4 Disrupt (-3 Fire/Ice, -1 Rushing River/Nimble Mongoose)

[Volrath]

Fire/Ice is great against any type of aggro and often gives you a 2 for 1.

Even against non Merfolk/Goblin aggro decks you could still use it to win goyf wars and ping the opponnent.

Also, you could keep him of a color by tapping a land in your oppo's upkeep.

Even against reanimate like deck you can tap the big beastie and swing through.

It's the versatility that makes this card so great, combine it with likely 2 for 1's and cantripping disruption and you have a card yust made for the deck.

[GUnit]

Fire/Ice is really great in a random metagame, which legacy presents moreso than any other format. Sure, depending on the matchups you get, you'll sideboard it out a lot, but going in blind I think your EV is pretty good with F/I. It's always less dead than a card like swords to plowshares can be, even before you consider the fact that it can be pitched to FoW. And, hey, it's not even always a terrible thing if you have an easy time boarding things out for games 2 and 3, assuming you have the SB slots to replace the cards with.

[strife2]

Fire/Ice is really great in a random metagame, which legacy presents moreso than any other format. Sure, depending on the matchups you get, you'll sideboard it out a lot, but going in blind I think your EV is pretty good with F/I. It's always less dead than a card like swords to plowshares can be, even before you consider the fact that it can be pitched to FoW. And, hey, it's not even always a terrible thing if you have an easy time boarding things out for games 2 and 3, assuming you have the SB slots to replace the cards with.

What is EV ?

And I agree to say that F/I was made for this deck, can't play less than 4 of it.

[Glorfindel]

EV = Expected Value (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_Value)

[TrialByFire]

Black Tempo (nice joke) Thresh lacks the game winning burn spells that red has. Good luck playing Essence Drain lol. Lightning Bolt wins more games than Goyf for me. Dark Confidant is not Tempo

[johanessen]

Black Tempo (nice joke) Thresh lacks the game winning burn spells that red has. Good luck playing Essence Drain lol. Lightning Bolt wins more games than Goyf for me. Dark Confidant is not Tempo

Black thresh could(should) play a couple of Maelstrom Pulse which can steal games. Also plays Drak Confidant, if you land and can protect him early you're gonna win.

[gamegeek2]

I agree, it isn't as much of a tempo deck as Canadian Thresh. Dark Confidant isn't a tempo card. However, a protected Bob will almost guaranteed win you games, and will also help you keep up the disruption.

However, I'm sick of people bashing the deck for cards like Thoughtseize, when I don't even play the card BECAUSE it's not tempo. Also, Canadian Threshold may be able to tap Goyfs, but it can't consistently KILL them.

[strife2]

I agree, it isn't as much of a tempo deck as
However, I'm sick of people bashing the deck for cards like Thoughtseize, when I don't even play the card BECAUSE it's not tempo. Also, Canadian Threshold may be able to tap Goyfs, but it can't consistently KILL them.

Yes it does, if you got a Tarmo.

[GUnit]

Part of the point behind tempo thresh is that you don't need to kill tarmogoyfs.

[nitewolf9]

Yes it does, if you got a Tarmo.

What if you have a mongoose? I think there is a pretty good debate between reach and actually being able to kill a goyf with 1 spell.

[GUnit]

You have to consider the entire gameplan, rather than simplifying it down to card X kills tarmogoyf, whereas card Y very situationally kills tarmogoyf, but provides reach. Although the point you raise is valid, it's not like you're comparing alternatives inside of one single deck. You're comparing two decks that play out fundamentally differently and have different, if at times similar, focuses. The red deck is more often the aggressor than the black deck, which provides a smaller opportunity for an unanswered defending goyf to be problematic in the first place. Sure, you're still going to lament the fact that your lightning bolt can't kill a goyf that's attacking you for lethal, once in a while, but the versatility, the reach and, above all, the synergy with the rest of Canadian Threshold's strategy is what makes the burn spells truly shine, not their comparison to hard removal in a vaccum or in some nebulous concept of UG/x thresh.

[TrialByFire]

Plus if you let Goyf resolve when you don't already have your own Goyf, you either don't know how to play (misassignment of role), its the lategame (you were already losing) or burn to the dome or tapping it with Ice and getting in with Geese wins anyways

[gamegeek2]

Just beat Zoo (and a very experienced Zoo player). His draws weren't amazing, though.

Games will be up soon. I probably goofed running out Goyf early in game 2, but aside from that I don't think I made any major misplays.

[Mystical_Jackass]

What does everyone think about running something like...?

4 Goyf
4 Pridemage
4 Werebear

Basically, I'm making a GW 'Thresh' variant, and I'm considering something like this.

[Purgatory]

What does everyone think about running something like...?

4 Goyf
4 Pridemage
4 Werebear

Basically, I'm making a GW 'Thresh' variant, and I'm considering something like this.

I'd rather play Geese over the Bears.

[gamegeek2]

Goose is one of the main reasons to play Tempo Thresh - he laughs in the face of removal. I wouldn't ever play any less than 4.

[Mystical_Jackass]

How soon can you get to Thresh...? Till then he seems sorta weak just chilling there, or is the point that he gives you some sorta virtual CA not having to blow counters vs removal?

[Purgatory]

How soon can you get to Thresh...? Till then he seems sorta weak just chilling there, or is the point that he gives you some sorta virtual CA not having to blow counters vs removal?

The whole "he needs threshold to be good" argument can be said about Werebear too, until you hit 7 cards in the yard, he is a worse Llanowar Elves, and will die to any spotremoval/burn in your opponents deck. That, however, is not true for the Goose.

EDIT: Also, of course, the opponent having dead Smothers/Swords in his hand is always nice.

[Otter]

Goose is insane. I can't count the number of times my opponents have died to them while whining about all the dead removal piled up in their hands. Hell, I probably win more games with Goose than Goyf, shroud is just that good in legacy.

[gamegeek2]

Match vs mntwinsfan playing Zoo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0JV9BACNs4 (Game 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYPjwmOHzSA (Game 2, Part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcpbCGKhYTs (Game 2, Part 2)

[Otter]

Match vs mntwinsfan playing Zoo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0JV9BACNs4 (Game 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYPjwmOHzSA (Game 2, Part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcpbCGKhYTs (Game 2, Part 2)

I watched the first game, a couple of comments:

-Is this game even worth posting? Zoo's opening is a turn one Lavamancer, with his next play being a second Lavamancer on turn four. That's hideously terrible, even if he's playing around Daze, he's still dropping critters that aren't good in the matchup and accomplishing nothing while you Thresh your Geese. This was his keep of seven too, what on earth was he thinking?

-On turn your turn four we see the first relevant inclusion of the black splash: you tap out to Pulse the pair of Lavamancers and he sneaks a Goyf down the next turn. The traditional red splash would Fire both Lavamancers, keeping U open to hit the Goyf with the Snares you had. Was definitely not impressed.

-He's at 10 life, you're at 14 holding Snare & Force with double threshed Geese on the table to his clear board and grip of four or five. He domes you with Helix and you Force it? This play makes absolutely no sense at all. His only outs to the situation are to get some guys to stick on the field and soon. Pridemage, Lavamancer, and Ape are all dead for him here and just chump the Geese. If he gets one Nacatl it trades and he still dies to the other Goose, his only outs here are Goyf and Thoctar (or KotR, but I'm assuming he's on Thoctar plan since he played one, makes no difference either way). Helix does nothing to advance that plan and if he's going to burn you out, you can always Force the next burn spell anyways. Also, Snare you pitched to Force would cut off his Goyf out, leaving him with literally just Thoctar and you already smothered one, so he has 1-2 more in left in his deck at best. Forcing here throws your entire hand away and means that if you draw dead for a turn or two and he finds a Goyf, he can bounce back and tear you apart. Luckily for you, he draws a ton of land instead.

[gamegeek2]

-He's at 10 life, you're at 14 holding Snare & Force with double threshed Geese on the table to his clear board and grip of four or five. He domes you with Helix and you Force it? This play makes absolutely no sense at all. His only outs to the situation are to get some guys to stick on the field and soon. Pridemage, Lavamancer, and Ape are all dead for him here and just chump the Geese. If he gets one Nacatl it trades and he still dies to the other Goose, his only outs here are Goyf and Thoctar (or KotR, but I'm assuming he's on Thoctar plan since he played one, makes no difference either way). Helix does nothing to advance that plan and if he's going to burn you out, you can always Force the next burn spell anyways. Also, Snare you pitched to Force would cut off his Goyf out, leaving him with literally just Thoctar and you already smothered one, so he has 1-2 more in left in his deck at best. Forcing here throws your entire hand away and means that if you draw dead for a turn or two and he finds a Goyf, he can bounce back and tear you apart. Luckily for you, he draws a ton of land instead.

If you'll look at the video, he was at 9 life when the Force on Helix play in question occurred (he had to tap Horizon Canopy to cast the Helix). This is significant in that it means that I get to untap and put him to 3, meaning he had to have 2 creatures or a creature and a Helix to survive the next attack. He had the latter, but ended up dead anyways.

I wanted to cut off the option of him burning me out and end the game as soon as possible.



-On turn your turn four we see the first relevant inclusion of the black splash: you tap out to Pulse the pair of Lavamancers and he sneaks a Goyf down the next turn. The traditional red splash would Fire both Lavamancers, keeping U open to hit the Goyf with the Snares you had. Was definitely not impressed.

Remember people - I'm not advocating this over Canadian Thresh, and would almost certainly play the red version over this (the black version) in a real tournament. I'm just trying this deck out because it's a free tournament, and I thought it might be interesting and fun to play something different.

[strife2]

Just a question everybody : If you are on the play, you know your opponent is playing fetch and you have a hand with Goose and Stifle. What do you do on T1 ? Put Goose or trying to see if your opponent put a fetch in play ?

[Kanabo]

I would stifle his fetch, because he could have kept a hand with only 1 land and that would totaly screw him up. also, it wouldnt hurt to play the goose on turn 2.

[gamegeek2]

Agreed, I would hold up mana for stifle. Giving them an opportunity to find a basic is a bad idea.

[Purgatory]

Agreed, I would hold up mana for stifle. Giving them an opportunity to find a basic is a bad idea.

+1, and also, I sometimes prefer to keep my Geese in my hand on the first couple of turns, at least if my opponent is red or part-red and can board in Pyroclasm or similar. Getting Threshold or at least having the opportunity to get threshold on the same turn as you play Goose is great.