[Deck] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

[Dazed]

I was toying around with a U/G hybrid between threshold and countertop. I found out that, against all my expectatives, it was pretty good in facing aggro control, control and combo. Pure Aggro is the severe match up (that´s why the EE and Propaganda on SB).

Even though I renounce to the many answers that an aditional splash could offer, I have been well suited against mana denial strategies (other tempo thresh) while still being able to play like a classic aggro-control whith a backup plan for the long term play (counterbalance lock).

I know it may look out-dated, but the Warbear and the classic and simple blue and green thresh seems to be not that bad. Indeed, it is somehow promising, at least for me...

Deck
The list (61 cards):

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Warbear
2 Trygon Predator

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Spell Snare

1 Rushing River
1 Wipe Away

3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei´s Divining Top

Lands (18):
4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Forest

SB:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Tormod´s Crypt
3 Propaganda
2 Engeneerd Explosives



What do you people think?

[strife2]

Just a question everybody : If you are on the play, you know your opponent is playing fetch and you have a hand with Goose and Stifle. What do you do on T1 ? Put Goose or trying to see if your opponent put a fetch in play ?

Thanks for the answers, I'm reassured because so far I've been playing the same way as you said guys.

To dazed : I can't understand how it is possible to mix Countertop/Tempo Thresh. It's just not the same strategy...
Furthermore, without a Red, Black or White splash you don't have any removal...

[gamegeek2]

So, this Friday, I intend to take the following Canadian Thresh list to a small local tournament:

4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Stifle
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire//Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
1 Rushing River

--- Sideboard ---
3 Spell Pierce
3 Pyroblast
2 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Submerge

I went for the 1 Clique/1 Rushing River split because I like the River to be able to clear the way for a turn and counter the replayed threats, but am not a big fan of Wipe Away. I've had great experiences with Clique, and I like having 9 threats, so I want at least 1 in there. I don't own 4 Volcanics, so I only have 3. Still trying to win an auction for the 4th.

The sideboard is geared toward a small local metagame where I can expect the following decks:

1 CounterTop/Bant/Thrash (Zaresiy)
1 Landstill
1-2 Rock
1-2 Merfolk
0-1 Dredge
1-2 Reanimator
1 Goblins
1 TarmoSligh

[Pelikanudo]

Hello I'm new to the thread, I'm thinking in playing CT in the GP, I have a few questions for the more experienced of the thread:
I'm testing this following mana base :
4 M. Rainforest
1 S.Tarn
1 Polluted delta
3 Tropical I.
3 Volcanic I.
1 Forest
1 Island

I Like flexibility to face moon effects and wasteland recursive. What do you think abou this?

The base I'm thinking in the same standard but 2 vendilion as the 2 one of.

Regarding to the side I'm planing the following:
4 Threads of D.
4 Relic of P.
4 Spell Pierce
3 E.Explosives.

Now the E.E can handle those moon effects or B2B effect , part of the puzzle I didn't find in C.3shold.

The other super poliivalent card I find is S.Pierce, in my opinion is the card which fits most for this archetype of decks, always 4 -of.

The relic of P. I intend this card to serve me both vs Icho and mirror.

The threads, I'm thinking in replacing it by B.E.B or similar but not yet sure, its function is handle those sligh and mirror.

Well I admit suggestions about the side but I'd like to you tell me which cards from the main usually you take out vs the different decks in the meta and also which cards do you usually put in:
- T.America
- Mirror
- c.b decks
- Merfolks
- Landstill U/B/X
- Ichorid
- ANT/TES
- Agro Loam
- TarmoSligh, Zoo and similars
- Goblins
- StifleNought
- N.Order stuff

Well thanks I'd appreciate any collaboration.

[Purgatory]

Hello I'm new to the thread, I'm thinking in playing CT in the GP, I have a few questions for the more experienced of the thread:
I'm testing this following mana base :
4 M. Rainforest
1 S.Tarn
1 Polluted delta
3 Tropical I.
3 Volcanic I.
1 Forest
1 Island

I would never add basic lands to my list, simply because the duals are better 9 out of 10 times. The basic Forest is especially abysmal, since the only time you will ever want to play it is if you play against Dragon Stompy and he drops a Blood Moon on turn 1 and you happen to have a Misty Rainforest in play. Other than that, you will never want to fetch it. Also, it can't cast anything bar the creatures in the deck, and it doesn't work with Daze. Go for 6 fetches and 8 duals.


Regarding to the side I'm planing the following:
4 Threads of D.
4 Relic of P.
4 Spell Pierce
3 E.Explosives.

Threads is a no-no for me. I tried it, and it didn't work out as I found it too slow and too mana intensive. Relic will hit you as well, which is bad, since you want to beat your Ichorid opponent into a pulp after removing his graveyard before he gets a chance to recover. A 0/1 Goyf will not accomplish this. Use Crypts instead. Spell Pierce is really nice, and I'd say play at least 3. EE is good too, but maybe just 2 in the side.

You will need Submerge, 3 or 4 of them, they are awesome in the mirror and against any green-based beatdown. Also, the red blasts are one of the reasons I even play red in the maindeck.

[Ectoplasm]

Red blasts, >>>DISRUPT<<<, Submerge and some random metagame crap (peedle, crypt, you name it) are the sideboard cards I'd go with.
Also, Canadian isn't the deck to run basic land in, simply because its designed to operate on two or three lands and basics do simply *not* fit in this philosophy.

[EternalDragon09]

I just got back into mtg and i have been reading and tempo thresh seems good i used to play old school thresh back in the day however i would appreciate feed back on my recent list and possible changes or whatever.

Guys: 9
4 goose
4 tarmogoyf
1 vendilion clique (i really like the versatility rather than 2 bounce spells, controversial tho)

Spells: 33
4 b storm
4 ponder
4 daze
4 lightning bolt
4 fire/ ice
4 FOW
4 spell snare
4 stifle
1 rushing river

Land: 18
1 breeding pool
1 island
3 misty rainforest
3 tropical island
2 volcanic island
1 steam vents
3 wooded foothills
4 wasteland

Board: 15
2 krosan grip
2 pyroclasm
2 red blast
2 engineered explosives
4 spell pierce
3 submerge

I enjoy the bounce when i see them.do i really need maindeck bounce or is that what submerge is for? However i found i like the odd number of guys a little better and everytime i see clique he is an allstar. The evasion and instant speed i love it however if the second bounce would be a little more solid its changeable i would like imput please and can we clean up this thread its too confusing. board suggestions would be appreciated as well. :confused:

[Lcpdenijs]

Red blasts, >>>DISRUPT<<<, Submerge and some random metagame crap (peedle, crypt, you name it) are the sideboard cards I'd go with.
Also, Canadian isn't the deck to run basic land in, simply because its designed to operate on two or three lands and basics do simply *not* fit in this philosophy.


IMHO a single Island can save you from a lot of trouble.

[GUnit]

A single island can also keep you from casting a game-winning spell.

When disrupt is good it's reaaaaaaaaaaally good, but I think spell pierce is much more reliable as a sideboard card, given that it costs the opponent an extra 1 and can counter junk like SDT and Moat.

[Pelikanudo]

Well I admit suggestions about the side but I'd like to you tell me which cards from the main usually you take out vs the different decks in the meta and also which cards do you usually put in:
- T.America
- Mirror
- c.b decks
- Merfolks
- Landstill U/B/X
- Ichorid
- ANT/TES
- Agro Loam
- TarmoSligh, Zoo and similars
- Goblins
- StifleNought
- N.Order stuff

Well thanks I'd appreciate any collaboration.

[GUnit]

Normally when I'm playing game 1 of a match, if it isn't over in a heartbeat, there comes a point where I'm like, "damn, I wish This Card in my hand was something useful, like That Really Really Good Card in my sideboard." In that case, my sideboarding strategy normally looks like this:

-X This Card
+X That Really Really Good Card

Other times I just sideboard out a bunch of burn for disruption. Sometimes bounce spells too... and sometimes other things, like daze or stifle if they seem bad.

Legacy is too random to memorize sideboarding strategies, because you're not going to play against the same decks repeatedly. Your best bet is to attempt to identify your gameplan in a matchup and then make adjustments to work toward that gameplan.

For example, maybe your testing against Belcher has lead you to believe that if you can disrupt the deck sufficiently, you'll win, regardless of other factors. Maybe you manage to win game 1 with a tarmogoyf. Maybe when you go to game 2, in spite of that fact, you end up boarding out a tarmogoyf to maximize the amount of disruption you have. Seems counterintuitive, but it could be right. It's all about identifying your gameplan and then using your card evaluation skills to get there.

Even if someone here were to list the "correct" sideboard changes, if you weren't privy to the state of mind and strategic gameplan that accompanies those changes you could very well do yourself more harm than good.



tl;dr version: Testing matchups will serve you much better than asking: "How do I SB my deck against all the 15,000 archetypes legacy has to offer? thx!"

[Volrath]

A single island can also keep you from casting a game-winning spell.

When disrupt is good it's reaaaaaaaaaaally good, but I think spell pierce is much more reliable as a sideboard card, given that it costs the opponent an extra 1 and can counter junk like SDT and Moat.

While i agree on Disrupt vs Pierce, i think basics are a good idea, but should take up a free slot or as the 4th wasteland.

[TrialByFire]

LOL you guys can keep playing you awesome versions with basic Forest instead of Wasteland, and I'll keep making top 8's thanks

[Volrath]

I always end up third, second or first at my fnms, wich i visit 2 times a month.

I also always make top8 on every larger tournament i partake in, once a month.

Oh yeah, Thanks..

[gamegeek2]

While i agree on Disrupt vs Pierce, i think basics are a good idea, but should take up a free slot or as the 4th wasteland.

Lol cutting wasteland...

The only time I've ever really wished I had a basic was in the mirror (a battle over LD from my experience).

At any rate,


Legacy is too random to memorize sideboarding strategies, because you're not going to play against the same decks repeatedly. Your best bet is to attempt to identify your gameplan in a matchup and then make adjustments to work toward that gameplan.

This is, of course, absolutely true. Legacy is probably the most diverse competitive constructed format in existence. Although you do want to identify what decks specific cards come in against when you put them in your sideboard, and be ready with a plan for the most prominent decks (mirror, Zoo, Merfolk, ANT, Landstill, Goblins, and CounterTop)

[Lcpdenijs]

LOL you guys can keep playing you awesome versions with basic Forest instead of Wasteland, and I'll keep making top 8's thanks

What about 3x Tropical, 3x Volcanic and 1x Island?
You are right about the 1x Forest, that isn't really necessary.

[Wargoos]

What about 3x Tropical, 3x Volcanic and 1x Island?
You are right about the 1x Forest, that isn't really necessary.

Question asked for the 1337 time combined in both (the old and this one) threads.
Congratulations you've won a cookie.

Please devise your email-address for matters of validation.
Penis-Enlargement offers can be send to you adress. By posting you adress you agree on to the terms of this option.


(Shipment will probably be executed from italy. You will be charged. Don't think you'll get the cookie though, ever.)

€dit: Oh, and basics in this deck is just wrong. You lose more than you gain by molesting the manabase. Also stop posting same questions in the Team America thread.

[GUnit]

Regarding basics:

The one time during a tournament when you really wish your 4th volcanic was a basic island will almost certainly be more than counterbalanced by the times you draw said island naturally and wish it produced red. Perhaps you can consider that change if your metagame is considerably tougher on manabases than normal (ie. completely overrun by tempo thresh and landstill), but I remain skeptical. Let's not forget that two of the larger issues in these situations are not getting stifled and having access to both of your colours. A basic island addresses neither of these concerns.

I've played the Canadian Thresh mirror plenty and have managed to get by just fine with no basics.



Regardless, is there not something more productive that can be discussed in this thread aside from the two topics we seem to be beating to death (basic island, or clique instead of bounce)?


Surely there must be something else we can talk about, although the decklist is much tighter than those found in many other archetypes. It would be nice to hear more, specific feedback from players who have actually played this deck in tournaments, rather than simply conjecture.

For example, I played this deck to a solid finish in a large tournament recently and spell pierce was SO good that it almost seemed worthy of finding room for in the maindeck. It complements this deck's gameplan incredibly well. Has anyone else had this experience?

EDIT: We could also discuss the sideboard.

[Volrath]

I've played the deck for over a year and a half (could as wel be 2 years now) and play a big tournament once a month a FNK two times a month.

The main is indeed packed and tight as a virgin, the only free space you have is in the flex slots ( bounce/clique).

The SB is the main thing to discus in my opinion.

3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
1 island (lots of loam, landstill and Rock)
4 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Stifle
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire//Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
1 Rushing River

--- Sideboard ---
4 Spell Pierce
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Submerge
2 pithing needle
2 pyroclasm


This is what i've been playing recently, the main deck is pretty much optimal in my opinion.
It's the SB i'm unsure about.

My meta has lots of combo, rock, landstill, zoo and merfolk.
Rock has been giving me problems in the form of Finks and recurring witnesses, is there anything else besides Submerge that could help? Mind's harness seems okay, but it can't hit Stalkers.

[GUnit]

Haha, how about magma spray?

I've been thinking about maybe cutting down to 3 x submerge in the board, although when submerge is good it's really good.

I'm not sure how I feel about the lack of red blasts. I guess you've found they're unneccessary? I love them, personally.

Rock is not something that's really on my radar, so I haven't really given it thought.

[TrialByFire]

A response to basics more in depth:

The only basics I would ever advocate in this deck is an Island. If you are going to play said Island, IMO it should be as a 19th land or instead of a fetch. That said, I think basics in this deck are TERRIBLE.

Reasons: Give me a scenario when you would ever need a basic land. Some people say against strategies where Loam can produce infinite Wasteland. OK, well against Loam they need to have until turn 2 on the play earliest before they can start Wasting you profitably. And thats with a perfect hand. The way to beat Loam is to counter their Loams, Stifle their Wastelands, and stall them as long as possible while beating. IF you can't accomplish that, and they have drawn said god hand, then congratulations, you lost a game. In case you haven't noticed, sometimes you can't win every game. They are are not going to get the god hand every game. And if they do, congratulations, welcome to a thing called variables. You lost a match, it happens, thats life.

Now you say that you need basics because you lose to Blood Moon, well thats the only card to fear because Magus can be burned. If you know you auto lose to Blood Moon, then DON'T LET IT RESOLVE. Don't waste you FOW on something that you actually have outs for, unless its going to absolutely lose you the game ON THE SPOT. And if there is nothing you can possibly do, then you played wrong, didn't mulligan when you should, or you just lost to a better draw. Thats life.

This same reasoning can be applied to every situation where you would want a basic instead of a dual land. Sometimes you just lose, you can't win every game, and most of the time it was probably your fault that you got into the situation anyways.

Now I am in now way advocating that I am a flawless player. But as someone above said, Legacy is the most wide open constructed format out there, you can't plan for everything. You just have to go out there with the best possible deck configuration and play with minimal mistakes and hope that the pairings and the draws go in your favor. And the best possible deck configuration does NOT include basics.

[gamegeek2]

lost to landstill with my black thresh deck. made some pretty bad misplays.

The match was about an hour long, so it won't be up for a while.

Really missed having burn in game 2 - next tourney I'll just stick to my guns and play Canadian Thresh or CounterTop.

[EternalDragon09]

Step 1:
Identify the expected metagame. Draw up a list, in order, of the archetypes you expect to face. One way to do this is to simply break down your entire metagame.

Step 2:
Build a version of your deck designed to beat each of the major archetypes in the metagame.

Step 3:
Begin to build a composite list by synthesizing your decklists. First, put into a "composite" list all of the unanimous card choices or all of the cards that showed up in every version of the deck. Then, include all the cards that made it into this list in a majority of your decklists.

Step 4:
Choose a tiebreaker to select the rest of your decklist by matchup importance. In doing so, be sure to give greater weight to some decklists you expect to face in the Top 8 despite their frequency in the metagame as a whole. Also, when choosing among final cards, make sure that you give some weight to the fact that you want internal synergies.

Step 5:
Build your sideboard to fill gaps and address matchup weaknesses. Use cards that showed up in Step 2 here. Make sure you have functional sideboard plans. You don’t want to go into a tournament with more sideboard cards for a match than you have the capacity to sideboard in.

Single handedly the best quote i have ever read on "how to" build a good deck wow props to Doug Linn with Starcity.

[AcidFiend]

Single handedly the best quote i have ever read on "how to" build a good deck wow props to Doug Linn with Starcity.

Doug Linn got this concept from Stephen M, he even said so.

[EternalDragon09]

oh pk still even menendian is the most renound vintage player in the world and a well respected collumnist on starcity so props to him writing out what most good players go through when constructing a deck and props to linn for reposting it. they are good guidelines:smile:

I was thinking about this board for an upcoming tourament...thoughts
4 spell pierce
4 submerge
2 pyroclasm
2 red blast
2 krosan grip
1 EE

[Cenarius]

I'm currently running this sideboard:

2 Pyroclasm (Goblins, Ichorid Merfolk (does not see the table very often in my metagame))
1 Vendilion Clique (Rock, Loam, Merfolk/Relic/, Landstill)
2 Submerge (Rock, Loam, Countertop (does not see the table very often in my metagame))
3 Pyroblast (Combo, Landstill, Merfolk & Countertop (see above))
3 Pithing Needle (Goblins, Rock, Landstill, Goblins, Merfolk & Countertop (see above) + many other decks like survival.
2 Tormod's Crypt (Ichorid, Reanimator (a bit popular here, someone won the nationals here with Reanimator)
2 Spell Pierce (Combo, Landstill, Staxx (not played), Reanimator) + many other decks I can't think off.

I've found out that Submerge is not that great after all. It's great when you play against people who don't understand how to play against Tempo Threshold. However it's mediocre to bad when you play against people, who do know how to play against Tempo Threshold. That's why I only play two submerges.
Another thing to mention: Tempo Threshold has pretty decent matchup's against nearly the entire metagame. So instead of trying to make 3 matchup's better what the original sideboard does, I wanted to make a sideboard that can help against every matchup in MY metagame.
Another thing to mention: It's hard for tempo threshold to board out 6 to 8 cards, since the whole deck is one synergy of flow.

I'm thinking of playing:
4 Ghastly Demise
4 Smother

instead of

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice

There are several reasons for that:
1. People who identify Tempo Threshold, think I'm playing red (for instance Reanimator). When they get Iona on the board, I still got a chance.
2. Phyrexian Dreadnought
3. Tombstalker does not see much play here
4. Dark Confidant does not see much play here, well to be honest only in Rock but that's a horrible matchup anyway.
5. Better removal against Tarmogoyf is never bad.
6. Merfolk does not see much play.
7. Pyroclasm is never a 100% win card against Merfolk, since they play enough Lords. The same counts for Goblins.
8. I just want to try out new things. Maybe it is good, maybe it isn´t.

So my list would look like this:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground sea
4 Wasteland

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Force Spike (3 is not the right call, since you want #4 Spell Snare now)
4 Force of Will
4 Ghastly Demise
4 Smother
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

4 Ponder

[Purgatory]

oh pk still even menendian is the most renound vintage player in the world and a well respected collumnist on starcity so props to him writing out what most good players go through when constructing a deck and props to linn for reposting it. they are good guidelines:smile:

I was thinking about this board for an upcoming tourament...thoughts
4 spell pierce
4 submerge
2 pyroclasm
2 red blast
2 krosan grip
1 EE

I would definitely cut Krosan Grip from there. I have done so myself, since I never boarded it in, basically. The relatively high mana cost is a problem, and usually the stuff you board it in against can be handled by Spell Pierce. Also, I would get some Crypts in there, some of our worst match-ups are against decks that abuse their graveyards (Ichorid, Loam).

On a related note, I'm thinking about sticking Spell Pierce in the main, in the two flex slots, and complementing with two more in the side. What do you guys think about that? Has anyone tried it?

[Volrath]

I'm currently running this sideboard:

2 Pyroclasm (Goblins, Ichorid Merfolk (does not see the table very often in my metagame))
1 Vendilion Clique (Rock, Loam, Merfolk/Relic/, Landstill)
2 Submerge (Rock, Loam, Countertop (does not see the table very often in my metagame))
3 Pyroblast (Combo, Landstill, Merfolk & Countertop (see above))
3 Pithing Needle (Goblins, Rock, Landstill, Goblins, Merfolk & Countertop (see above) + many other decks like survival.
2 Tormod's Crypt (Ichorid, Reanimator (a bit popular here, someone won the nationals here with Reanimator)
2 Spell Pierce (Combo, Landstill, Staxx (not played), Reanimator) + many other decks I can't think off.

I've found out that Submerge is not that great after all. It's great when you play against people who don't understand how to play against Tempo Threshold. However it's mediocre to bad when you play against people, who do know how to play against Tempo Threshold. That's why I only play two submerges.
Another thing to mention: Tempo Threshold has pretty decent matchup's against nearly the entire metagame. So instead of trying to make 3 matchup's better what the original sideboard does, I wanted to make a sideboard that can help against every matchup in MY metagame.
Another thing to mention: It's hard for tempo threshold to board out 6 to 8 cards, since the whole deck is one synergy of flow.

I'm thinking of playing:
4 Ghastly Demise
4 Smother

instead of

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice

There are several reasons for that:
1. People who identify Tempo Threshold, think I'm playing red (for instance Reanimator). When they get Iona on the board, I still got a chance.
2. Phyrexian Dreadnought
3. Tombstalker does not see much play here
4. Dark Confidant does not see much play here, well to be honest only in Rock but that's a horrible matchup anyway.
5. Better removal against Tarmogoyf is never bad.
6. Merfolk does not see much play.
7. Pyroclasm is never a 100% win card against Merfolk, since they play enough Lords. The same counts for Goblins.
8. I just want to try out new things. Maybe it is good, maybe it isn´t.

So my list would look like this:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground sea
4 Wasteland

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Force Spike (3 is not the right call, since you want #4 Spell Snare now)
4 Force of Will
4 Ghastly Demise
4 Smother
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

4 Ponder


I don't like the way you lose al your reach, burn is not only removal it's also reach for getting the last points through.

Better removal may help though, i'll have to test it.

Maybe Vampire Nighthawk can be good against all sorts of aggro.

[Cenarius]

I don't like the way you lose al your reach, burn is not only removal it's also reach for getting the last points through.

Better removal may help though, i'll have to test it.

Maybe Vampire Nighthawk can be good against all sorts of aggro.

I personally have no idea what to play in the Pyroclasm slot. Infest could be good. It just has an horrible cost.
Engineered Plague just feels too clumsy since you need atleast 2.

However should anything like that be in the board if Merfolk is in decline and Goblins see's little to no play (sometimes)?

[Volrath]

Depends on your meta, generally i would cut the slots for Clasm for something that improves your really terrible matchups.

Also, now you have black you can play stuff like Nighthawk (great aggainst Aggro)
And snuff out, free removal that dodges CB.

Edit: I think we yust made Team America...

[Cenarius]

Depends on your meta, generally i would cut the slots for Clasm for something that improves your really terrible matchups.

Also, now you have black you can play stuff like Nighthawk (great aggainst Aggro)
And snuff out, free removal that dodges CB.

Edit: I think we yust made Team America...

I would not advise people to play Snuff out. It just gives too much lifeloss.
I'm not that fund of Nighthawk.
There is a reason why Team America isn't played anymore.

[Volrath]

True that Snuff out costs much life, but it is gives huge tempo.

I wouldn't play it now with all the Zoo running around

perhaps yust 4 demise/4 smother woulb be enough.

The 2 Open slots, you play with Force Spike( i tested it for a time, but it's a terrible top deck but golden T1) I'm not sure what to put in here.

[Purgatory]

Nighthawk seems terrible, it costs double-black (as does Infest) and with only 3 Underground Sea as the only black sources in the deck, you will never cast them. Nighthawk also dies to bolt. Go figure.

[gamegeek2]

I'm currently running this sideboard:

2 Pyroclasm (Goblins, Ichorid Merfolk (does not see the table very often in my metagame))
1 Vendilion Clique (Rock, Loam, Merfolk/Relic/, Landstill)
2 Submerge (Rock, Loam, Countertop (does not see the table very often in my metagame))
3 Pyroblast (Combo, Landstill, Merfolk & Countertop (see above))
3 Pithing Needle (Goblins, Rock, Landstill, Goblins, Merfolk & Countertop (see above) + many other decks like survival.
2 Tormod's Crypt (Ichorid, Reanimator (a bit popular here, someone won the nationals here with Reanimator)
2 Spell Pierce (Combo, Landstill, Staxx (not played), Reanimator) + many other decks I can't think off.

I've found out that Submerge is not that great after all. It's great when you play against people who don't understand how to play against Tempo Threshold. However it's mediocre to bad when you play against people, who do know how to play against Tempo Threshold. That's why I only play two submerges.
Another thing to mention: Tempo Threshold has pretty decent matchup's against nearly the entire metagame. So instead of trying to make 3 matchup's better what the original sideboard does, I wanted to make a sideboard that can help against every matchup in MY metagame.
Another thing to mention: It's hard for tempo threshold to board out 6 to 8 cards, since the whole deck is one synergy of flow.

I'm thinking of playing:
4 Ghastly Demise
4 Smother

instead of

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice

There are several reasons for that:
1. People who identify Tempo Threshold, think I'm playing red (for instance Reanimator). When they get Iona on the board, I still got a chance.
2. Phyrexian Dreadnought
3. Tombstalker does not see much play here
4. Dark Confidant does not see much play here, well to be honest only in Rock but that's a horrible matchup anyway.
5. Better removal against Tarmogoyf is never bad.
6. Merfolk does not see much play.
7. Pyroclasm is never a 100% win card against Merfolk, since they play enough Lords. The same counts for Goblins.
8. I just want to try out new things. Maybe it is good, maybe it isn´t.

So my list would look like this:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground sea
4 Wasteland

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Force Spike (3 is not the right call, since you want #4 Spell Snare now)
4 Force of Will
4 Ghastly Demise
4 Smother
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

4 Ponder

I've been playing something similar in a recent online tourney, but with four Bobs main. Basically you've made the change I would make, to maindeck four Ghastly Demise instead of Bob.

Maelstrom Pulse and Putrefy are nice utility, you should think about them.

[Cenarius]

I've been playing something similar in a recent online tourney, but with four Bobs main. Basically you've made the change I would make, to maindeck four Ghastly Demise instead of Bob.

Maelstrom Pulse and Putrefy are nice utility, you should think about them.

Maelstrom pulse is a sorcery.
Putrefy is a 3c creature/Vial/Relic removal card and that's about it. I think there are better cards in the flex slots.

@ Purgatory, exactly. That's what I'm talking about.

[Illissius]

There's also Agony Warp.

[Volrath]

Agony Warp seems nice, capable of 2 for 1 an opponent and winning goyf wars.

Also how about HYmn to Tourach?

It's mana cost is a bitch, but is manageable.

make the manebase something like this

4 Misty R.
3 Tropical
3 U.Sea
3 Verdant C.
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland

A possible turn 1 stife on their fetch followed by a hymn can win games.

yust tossing it out there, but a fellow Dutchman has done wonders with it in a ***** list at the Open Dutch Championships, it wasn't a tempo build btw.

[Kronicler]

So I haven't posted much on the source in quite a while, but this past weekend I top 8ed at the 5k in LA with tempo thresh, so I figured I would go ahead and put in a quick word. I played a pretty standard list which can be found at SCG.com (Sam Blau, 7th place), and would pretty much make zero changes. Obviously the sideboard is variable, but I think that against the current metagame my board was pretty darn good, though it admittedly had nothing for the enchantress matchup which I had not even begun to consider. I've been playing this list within about two cards for about two years now, though this is the first large legacy tournament I've had a change to attend.

So yeah... not too much else to say. If anyone has any questions about the SB or anything just post or PM and I'll be sure to respond. Still love this deck as much as the day I picked it up, and plan to keep playing it at any other large tourneys I attend.

-SB

EDIT: This thread really needs to be moderated a bit more closely. As far as I'm concerned, The DTB Tempo Thresh is UGR, and any comments about a UGB version should be in their own thread. I think this would generally serve to keep both discussions, which are clearly entirely separate, more on track, and each of higher quality.

[Purgatory]

Congratulations on your finish, very impressive.

What was your reasoning behind omitting red blasts in the board?

[Cenarius]

Congratulations on your finish, very impressive.

What was your reasoning behind omitting red blasts in the board?

Yeah, I'm interested in that aswell. Should pyroblast not always be in the board of RTT (Red Tempo Threshold).
There are several reasons why they should be in your board:

1. The frequency of Merfolk
2. The frequency of Merfolk (No shit?)
3. The frequency of Merfolk (Oh, really?)
4. The frequency of Landstill/Countertop/Dreadstill although it's hard to say if you actually board in all your pyroblast.
5. In lesser extent the frequency of Combo.

Probably I've forgotten to mention some other deck. But Merfolk is probably the most obvious reason to have blast in your sideboard.


So I haven't posted much on the source in quite a while, but this past weekend I top 8ed at the 5k in LA with tempo thresh, so I figured I would go ahead and put in a quick word. I played a pretty standard list which can be found at SCG.com (Sam Blau, 7th place), and would pretty much make zero changes. Obviously the sideboard is variable, but I think that against the current metagame my board was pretty darn good, though it admittedly had nothing for the enchantress matchup which I had not even begun to consider. I've been playing this list within about two cards for about two years now, though this is the first large legacy tournament I've had a change to attend.

So yeah... not too much else to say. If anyone has any questions about the SB or anything just post or PM and I'll be sure to respond. Still love this deck as much as the day I picked it up, and plan to keep playing it at any other large tourneys I attend.

-SB

EDIT: This thread really needs to be moderated a bit more closely. As far as I'm concerned, The DTB Tempo Thresh is UGR, and any comments about a UGB version should be in their own thread. I think this would generally serve to keep both discussions, which are clearly entirely separate, more on track, and each of higher quality.


I'm do not agree that Ugb Tempo Threshold and Ugr should earn/deserve different threads in my opinion.
The discussion about Ugr Tempo Threshold (at this thread) is pretty straightforward:

1. Nobody wants to post Sideboard plans.
2. There are only 2 flexible slots. I tried to come up with a discussion about Force Spike in those flexible slots, however everyone (well nearly everyone) thinks it's bad without even testing it.
3. Well about 80% of the discussion goes about basics in this thread, which is absolutely rediculous.
4. People ask questions, that are answered on the previous page.

With that said, a (new) discussion about a deck that behaves in exact the same way SHOULD be in this thread. It´s a Tempo Threshold thread so every Tempo Threshold deck should be discussed in this thread. Let me give an example:

In the countertop threads people are discussing about four different builds and they're doing fine. Why can't we discuss two similar decks who only differ in colour? Am I right?

Isn't it good to discuss other options for the deck? Maybe BTT (Black Tempo Threshold) is better in this metagame than RTT (Red Tempo Threshold). Or maybe not? We don't know or atleast I don't know.

To put some information in this post:
I tested 7 games against Zoo
I tested 5 games against Merfolk
I tested 6 games against Rock

The results were:

3-4 against Zoo. But these results were rediculous since I would have lost even if I played Red. Our list plays 4 Aether Vial. That's the only reason why I lost four times, since I had no force in 7 games in my opening hand with decent starting hands. A normal Zoo build will be crushed by the black build. I'm pretty sure of that.
2-3 against Merfolk. Lost two games due to Umezawa's Jitte and one game thanks to 3 Standstills from my opponent. Again a red build would now have made the difference. Only once but I won that game (there were 2 Silvergale Adepts).
3-5 against Rock. Made one mistake that costed me the game, got manascrew once without any disruption of my opponent and lost 2 games thanks to topdecks (kitchen finks into Recurring Nightmare topdecks). I'm definitely positive about this matchup thanks to the change of better removal. I've found out that Rock is probably your worst matchup of all, since the chances of winnen are really small (Ichoridplayers can always screw himself or well-timed stifle's can win you the game).

The testings appear to look in the favor of RTT (Red Tempo Threshold), however this is not the case. I personally believe that the BTT (Black Tempo Threshold) list has a much better matchup against Rock. Like, I really thought I had a chance. And I lost certain games thanks to 4 aether vial (Zoo) and 2x Jitte (Merfolk), the same that would have happened when playing red.

[miko]

It would be interesting to discuss Spell Pierce in the two flexible slots. Because a lot of players recently came up with this idea.
I am interested in how/if it worked out...

Edit:
2 Pierce Main could give you two additional slots in your SB.

[stacker]

just a question to understand the deck better:

opening hand - waste, fetch, goyf, goose, bolt, ponder, stifle

on the play against an unknown deck, the correct play is to play the fetch and pass, right?

[sauce]

just a question to understand the deck better:

opening hand - waste, fetch, goyf, goose, bolt, ponder, stifle

on the play against an unknown deck, the correct play is to play the fetch and pass, right?

the % correctness of the play would have to coincide with what you expect the metagame %'s to be like... how many decks will have t1 fetch-plays vs how many decks will just straight out play a land and have a big t1 play (SDT, Vial, lackey.)

if you consider more than 50% of t1 plays the opposing decks may have including a fetchland (and cracking it), then this play is correct in the long run.

i would lean towards this play vs an unknown opponent.

[Cenarius]

just a question to understand the deck better:

opening hand - waste, fetch, goyf, goose, bolt, ponder, stifle

on the play against an unknown deck, the correct play is to play the fetch and pass, right?

I would definitely do the same as Sauce, by adding the following:

Against every turn 1 play that is a creature you'll have an answer, except Nimble Mongoose (lightning bolt).
Against every turn 1 play that begins with Tropical island/island/tundra or something else followed by a Vial or Top will mean a hard time to beat the deck you're playing against. If that does not occur and he plays duals. You'll have a big chance to win.

You must/can always look around at tournaments. Having information before playing about an opponent can be crucial.

[GUnit]

Stacker, the corollary to what these guys are saying is that if you suspect (or know) you're playing against a deck where you need Force of Will as soon as possible then the correct line of play is to fetch and ponder immediately.

That being said, I agree with fetching (volcanic) and passing against an unknown opponent.

[Kronicler]

Instead of trying to address the omission of red blasts in a vacuum, I’ll work the choices I made for my SB in general and then explain my choice about the blasts. Here is the SB I took to the 5k:

4 Submerge
4 Spell Pierce
2 Mind Harness
3 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Krosan Grip

Submerge and Mind Harness are both great against the same kinds of decks, mainly Zoo, Agro Loam, the Tempo mirror or any other kinds of Thresh, and Bant decks. I expected these decks to make up a large percentage of the field, justifying six SB slots against them, however I struggled with the number of Submerge vs Mind Harness. While submerging in response to a fetch is disgustingly good, Mind Harness will generally have more of an affect on the board, both removing one of your opponent’s threats and giving you one. The problem is that of the four decks I mentioned, Loam runs Chalice and the better bant decks (IMO), run CB, generally hurting MH a lot. It also makes Zoo’s Pridemages relevant, though they might side them out after game 1, or you could stifle it, or killing the pridemage isn’t terrible. Anyways I decided to run it 4/2, though I’m still not sure that is correct over a 3/3 split. Whatever, let’s move on.

The rest is pretty much obvious: Spell Pierce comes in against control and combo, Grip against decks with Vial, CB, Chalice, etc, and Crypt against GY decks, each of which is pretty clutch.

Against a metagame that I didn’t think was going to be a lot of Zoo and Loam, I think two of those original six become the 3rd Grip and the 4th Crypt. Alright, so back to the blasts. The reasons that have been mentioned to justify their inclusion seem to be that they are fantastic against Merfolk, and that they are somewhat useful against Landstill, CB, and Combo. In terms of the last three, Spell Pierce is almost certainly better, though it doesn’t even come in against CB decks generally. In terms of Merfolk, obviously my board is quite lacking against them, but there are two things to consider. First off, I don’t feel like our match-up against them is bad at all. Sure, a resolved vial is pretty bad news, but often you can still fight through that even, so basically I wasn’t too worried. Second of all, in the current metagame, or at least the one I expected to see, Merfolk is getting smashed by a ton of decks, keeping them to the mid / lower tables, making me care even less about them. If all of a sudden Zoo gets bad and Merfolk comes back then yes, the Blasts should most certainly be there, however as of right now I don’t really think they earn their spot.

This whole thing aside, I want to mention how friggin’ incredible the two Vendilion Cliques were all day. They won me a bunch of games, either taking a key card in the opponent’s hand or winning a stalled ground war. Every single time I drew one it was superior to a bounce spell, and while 2x Spell Pierce certainly sounds nice to complement our tempo control package, I strongly believe that those last two threats are really clutch to the deck.

[bailst2]

Would Sea Drake work in the two open slots?

[EternalDragon09]

first no sea drake would not work while a cool card not in this deck we are trying to gain tempo not loose it.

second @ Kronicler congrats on the finish. however i have a very similar board except for the mind harness i have 2 blasts to increase my match against merfolk because i do see it alot and enjoy bashing them.

third other than that i do agree with your choices and it is obvious on your placement at the 5k. i would like to point out the 2 cliques in your main are great however i do play a 1/1 split of bounce and guy for this reason 1. versatilty 2. odd number of dudes equals better probability or so proven in my previous testing and i like having an out against vial or naught or anything i just enjoy the bounce wish i could make room for one more:smile: anyway i agree with all your choices and second them other than my input which i hope can be valuable or considerable in your testing and would appreciate an update after.

[Purgatory]

@Kronicler: Great, thanks for your input on the choices. I don't think I would leave home without at least three Pyroblasts in my sideboard anyway, simply because I side them in against so many more decks than Merfolk. Then again, blue-based decks are really common in Sweden, so that might be it.

[Blitzbold]

i would like to point out the 2 cliques in your main are great however i do play a 1/1 split of bounce and guy for this reason 1. versatilty 2. odd number of dudes equals better probability or so proven in my previous testing and i like having an out against vial or naught or anything i just enjoy the bounce wish i could make room for one more:smile: anyway i agree with all your choices and second them other than my input which i hope can be valuable or considerable in your testing and would appreciate an update after.

I am using a split of Clique + Rushing River since half a year. Rushing River allowed me to not scoop on the spot against resolved moons. However, part of this is that I am also using a slightly different manabase: 3 Trops, 3 Volcs, 1 Taiga, 1 Island, 6 Fetch, 4 Waste. This is not a discussion about the deck's manabase, though, so I'll only add that thise base works pretty well and never sucked for consistency issues or whatevr else.

The look of players using Standstill against us when you play Clique in response is priceless by the way.

Though I scrubbed out at the 270ish player tournament in Hanau a week ago my sideboard I used was really good and I think I used every single card at least once. It still contains Blasts, though, so I can't comment on how well a blastless board works.

3 Submerge
2 Spell Pierce
1 Trygon Predator
1 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle

This board reflects my approach in sideboarding: I like to attack my opponent's deck from different angles.

For example: I was paired against (and won) twice against Dredge during the 7 rounds I played, and I boarded no less than 9 cards against them. Spell Pierce obviously is better than Snare here as are the Blasts for countering early Breakthroughs, Therapies or Studies, but the blasts also allow me to kill Narcomoebas. Clasm and EE take care of 1/1s and 2/2s the deck tends to create with the Crypts taking slots 8 + 9.

The Board still contains Clasms since I (rightfully so) expected quite some Merfolk, Goblins and Elves. Needle an EE also will come in here.

I have to admit though, that I am currently considering switching to a different deck. Since my daughter was born I don't have the time to play enough. Not playing enough results in play errors, and this deck needs to be played flawless.

[Cenarius]

Instead of trying to address the omission of red blasts in a vacuum, I’ll work the choices I made for my SB in general and then explain my choice about the blasts. Here is the SB I took to the 5k:

4 Submerge
4 Spell Pierce
2 Mind Harness
3 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Krosan Grip

Submerge and Mind Harness are both great against the same kinds of decks, mainly Zoo, Agro Loam, the Tempo mirror or any other kinds of Thresh, and Bant decks. I expected these decks to make up a large percentage of the field, justifying six SB slots against them, however I struggled with the number of Submerge vs Mind Harness. While submerging in response to a fetch is disgustingly good, Mind Harness will generally have more of an affect on the board, both removing one of your opponent’s threats and giving you one. The problem is that of the four decks I mentioned, Loam runs Chalice and the better bant decks (IMO), run CB, generally hurting MH a lot. It also makes Zoo’s Pridemages relevant, though they might side them out after game 1, or you could stifle it, or killing the pridemage isn’t terrible. Anyways I decided to run it 4/2, though I’m still not sure that is correct over a 3/3 split. Whatever, let’s move on.

The rest is pretty much obvious: Spell Pierce comes in against control and combo, Grip against decks with Vial, CB, Chalice, etc, and Crypt against GY decks, each of which is pretty clutch.

Against a metagame that I didn’t think was going to be a lot of Zoo and Loam, I think two of those original six become the 3rd Grip and the 4th Crypt. Alright, so back to the blasts. The reasons that have been mentioned to justify their inclusion seem to be that they are fantastic against Merfolk, and that they are somewhat useful against Landstill, CB, and Combo. In terms of the last three, Spell Pierce is almost certainly better, though it doesn’t even come in against CB decks generally. In terms of Merfolk, obviously my board is quite lacking against them, but there are two things to consider. First off, I don’t feel like our match-up against them is bad at all. Sure, a resolved vial is pretty bad news, but often you can still fight through that even, so basically I wasn’t too worried. Second of all, in the current metagame, or at least the one I expected to see, Merfolk is getting smashed by a ton of decks, keeping them to the mid / lower tables, making me care even less about them. If all of a sudden Zoo gets bad and Merfolk comes back then yes, the Blasts should most certainly be there, however as of right now I don’t really think they earn their spot.

This whole thing aside, I want to mention how friggin’ incredible the two Vendilion Cliques were all day. They won me a bunch of games, either taking a key card in the opponent’s hand or winning a stalled ground war. Every single time I drew one it was superior to a bounce spell, and while 2x Spell Pierce certainly sounds nice to complement our tempo control package, I strongly believe that those last two threats are really clutch to the deck.

How do you board against Countertop?
Because you're saying this:
I board in:
Xx Krosan Grip
Xx Submerge
Xx Spell pierce

But what goes out?

[Raptor]

How do you board against Countertop?
Because you're saying this:
I board in:
Xx Krosan Grip
Xx Submerge
Xx Spell pierce

But what goes out?

It really depends if you are on the draw or on the play.
Usually I side out
- Bounces/clique (except if you have the split second one)
- Daze
- either some lightning bolt or fire/ice

But I'm not sure if I should side out stifle instead of fire/ice if you are on the draw. You have submerge, and stifle isn't really good with it.

[Kronicler]

How do you board against Countertop?
Because you're saying this:
I board in:
Xx Krosan Grip
Xx Submerge
Xx Spell pierce

But what goes out?

My strat at the 5k was -8 burn, +2 Grip, +2 MH, +4 Submerge. I think you really want to keep Stifles in because keeping them off balance or forcing them to hold their fetches uncracked is key to winning. Also, I don't really think Spell Pierces are good enough to justify bringing them in here. (Note: completely irrelevant to this boarding strat but super cool, you can go super jedi-mind-trick by keeping a mana open for a long time bluffing or having the stifle, then "accidentally" tapping out, have them be like "Ah ha! I can crack my fetches!" and they do so and you submerge their goyf in response. Win. Back to the strat.) I'm not entirely sure my strat is correct... without burn for the Hierarchs, Daze, Stifle, and Wasteland become much less relevant, which is really quite bad. So perhaps something besides the burn should come out, but I'm not sure what that should be. I'd love to hear what you all have to say about it.

[JohnBaltimore]

My strat at the 5k was -8 burn, +2 Grip, +2 MH, +4 Submerge. I think you really want to keep Stifles in because keeping them off balance or forcing them to hold their fetches uncracked is key to winning. Also, I don't really think Spell Pierces are good enough to justify bringing them in here. (Note: completely irrelevant to this boarding strat but super cool, you can go super jedi-mind-trick by keeping a mana open for a long time bluffing or having the stifle, then "accidentally" tapping out, have them be like "Ah ha! I can crack my fetches!" and they do so and you submerge their goyf in response. Win. Back to the strat.) I'm not entirely sure my strat is correct... without burn for the Hierarchs, Daze, Stifle, and Wasteland become much less relevant, which is really quite bad. So perhaps something besides the burn should come out, but I'm not sure what that should be. I'd love to hear what you all have to say about it.

I thought the correct thing to SB on the draw (assuming that you won the first game) would be -4 Daze +3 Spell Pierce + 1 X?

[TrialByFire]

Just for reference I like to side out at least 2 Fire/Ice in matchups where they dont matter as much (anything without 1 toughness creatures), I also side out Stifle sometimes and Dazes almost always on the draw (for Pierce)

There are also the random matchups where I side out 1 Wasteland (mono red burn or some shit). Honestly I do all my sideboarding by feel don't really have set strategies except against a few specific decks. Thats why I don't like to play narrow SB cards, you never know what you are going to play against in a Legacy tournament

Also I almost never side out Lightning Bolt because its so good at helping to make Mongeese huge and speeding up your clock. Plus burn to the face is always an out.

[Purgatory]

Just for reference I like to side out at least 2 Fire/Ice in matchups where they dont matter as much (anything without 1 toughness creatures), I also side out Stifle sometimes and Dazes almost always on the draw (for Pierce)

Also I almost never side out Lightning Bolt because its so good at helping to make Mongeese huge and speeding up your clock. Plus burn to the face is always an out.

I have to say that I agree on these strategies. I sometimes board out all 4 Fire/Ice, if the best thing they can do is tap Goyfs (Submerge is so much better in that case). I never touch the bolts however, they are awesome against almost everything. I've won against AnT more than once with burnspells that restricted him from abusing Ad Nauseam too much.

[gamegeek2]

Made Top 4 at a local 15-man tourney today. Played standard maindeck with 1 Clique, 1 Rushing River in the flexible slots. Sideboard was this:

4 Pyroblast
4 Spell Pierce
4 Submerge
3 Tormod's Crypt

There was a ton of dredge, thinking about adding a fourth Crypt over a Submerge (there wasn't much green, no Trash or CounterTop).

[JohnBaltimore]

Just for reference I like to side out at least 2 Fire/Ice in matchups where they dont matter as much (anything without 1 toughness creatures), I also side out Stifle sometimes and Dazes almost always on the draw (for Pierce)

There are also the random matchups where I side out 1 Wasteland (mono red burn or some shit). Honestly I do all my sideboarding by feel don't really have set strategies except against a few specific decks. Thats why I don't like to play narrow SB cards, you never know what you are going to play against in a Legacy tournament

Also I almost never side out Lightning Bolt because its so good at helping to make Mongeese huge and speeding up your clock. Plus burn to the face is always an out.

Yeah, against dredge I'd side out 3 Fire/Ice for 3 Pyroclasm. Do you guys find Pyroclasm helpful against Dredge? I have 2x Crypt and 1x Ravenous Trap for them as wel, but keeping the zombie tokens at bay seems like a good plan. Also, should it be assumed that they'll bring in FoW? I heard siding in Pyroblast against Breakthrough and FoW is the correct play.

[sauce]

canadian thresh top8'd dallas 5k...
he had 1 forest 1 island main and 2 grim lavamancers in the flex slots...

lost to zoo in the quarters cuz he could not get a green source in play

[Kronicler]

The lavamancers seem really really poor... massive anti-synergy with goose and goyf. I also think the basics are wrong, but whatever.

[Purgatory]

Yeah, against dredge I'd side out 3 Fire/Ice for 3 Pyroclasm. Do you guys find Pyroclasm helpful against Dredge? I have 2x Crypt and 1x Ravenous Trap for them as wel, but keeping the zombie tokens at bay seems like a good plan. Also, should it be assumed that they'll bring in FoW? I heard siding in Pyroblast against Breakthrough and FoW is the correct play.

EE is good for blowing up tokens as well. But yeah. My sideboard looks like this:

3 Spell Pierce
4 Submerge
3 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Tormod's Crypt

I usually side out all 4 Fire // Ice and something random to bring in 2 Clasm, 1 EE, 2 Crypt.

[kabal]

Yeah, against dredge I'd side out 3 Fire/Ice for 3 Pyroclasm. Do you guys find Pyroclasm helpful against Dredge?


EE is good for blowing up tokens as well. But yeah. My sideboard looks like this:

3 Spell Pierce
4 Submerge
3 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Tormod's Crypt

I usually side out all 4 Fire // Ice and something random to bring in 2 Clasm, 1 EE, 2 Crypt.

So instead of boarding out Spell Snare, you go with Fire/Ice??? What are you countering with Spell Snare? As an aside, since you are running Spell Pierce in the board you want a way to bring it in as well.

[JohnBaltimore]

So instead of boarding out Spell Snare, you go with Fire/Ice??? What are you countering with Spell Snare? As an aside, since you are running Spell Pierce in the board you want a way to bring it in as well.

i didnt even think of Spell Snare. It seems difficult to side against Dredge...so many dead cards MD :/

[Purgatory]

i didnt even think of Spell Snare. It seems difficult to side against Dredge...so many dead cards MD :/

Haha, me too, in the heat of battle.

I guess with my board, I'd go:
-4 Spell Snare
-4 Fire/Ice

+3 Spell Pierce
+2 Pyroclasm
+1 Engineered Explosives
+2 Pyroclasm

[Volrath]

first no sea drake would not work while a cool card not in this deck we are trying to gain tempo not loose it.
.

Well, if you cast a Drake you can replay the third land and thus keep 1 mana open voor stifle/pierce/bolt/brainstorm/ponder/snare and even daze.

It can finish the game quickly but it opens you up for bolts and helixes.

Not saying it is optimal, but maybe worth a test or 2.

[Purgatory]

Well, if you cast a Drake you can replay the third land and thus keep 1 mana open voor stifle/pierce/bolt/brainstorm/ponder/snare and even daze.

It can finish the game quickly but it opens you for bolts and helixes.

Not saying it is optimal, but maeby worth a test or 2.

So go and test it then, and report back here how it worked out :)

[JohnBaltimore]

Well, if you cast a Drake you can replay the third land and thus keep 1 mana open voor stifle/pierce/bolt/brainstorm/ponder/snare and even daze.

It can finish the game quickly but it opens you up for bolts and helixes.

Not saying it is optimal, but maybe worth a test or 2.

Are you considering Drake over a certain card, or the 2 "flex spots"?

If you're thinking of 2x for the flex, I would almost certainly always want Vendilion Clique > Sea Drake because...

1. Clique gains information and provides the deck with hand disruption
2. Clique does not set you back 2 turns, which is huge if you're trying to gain tempo
3. they both die to the same removal (Smother,StP,Bolt,etc)

If you do happen test it, I'd love to hear the results!

[GUnit]

Sea Drake is only playable in one fringe deck, and only because its drawback doesn't exist in that deck.

In this deck, Serendib Efreet is about 15,000 times better than Sea Drake. Unfortunately for Serendib Efreet, Vendilion Clique was printed a couple years ago, which is 15,000 times better than him. If you're playing a 3-drop flier, you're almost certainly playing one of Vendilion Clique or Trygon Predator in this deck, and I would argue strongly that this deck doesn't want to tap 3 mana mainphase for a 2/3 flier, unless he was really sick in your metagame.



In other news, I think we should cut 4 Fire/Ice, 1 Trop, 1 Volc, and the flex slots and add 4 Grove of the Burnwillows and 4 Punishing Fire!


j/k, j/k

[Volrath]

Are you considering Drake over a certain card, or the 2 "flex spots"?

If you're thinking of 2x for the flex, I would almost certainly always want Vendilion Clique > Sea Drake because...

1. Clique gains information and provides the deck with hand disruption
2. Clique does not set you back 2 turns, which is huge if you're trying to gain tempo
3. they both die to the same removal (Smother,StP,Bolt,etc)

If you do happen test it, I'd love to hear the results!


I am playing him in the flex slots and my testing has shown me the following

Pro's for the Drake

5 turn clock is better then a 7 turn clock.

Inexperienced players will often forgot the land you returned and makes them more afraid of Fow. (happened 3 times, really :P)

Blocking and surviving can be Tech.

Surviving Clasm is also Tech.

If you did not have a land drop this turn, you can replay the land and have mana open for snare/bolt/ponder/goose/brainstorm/stifle.

Con's

Flash is sometimes missed, it really helped the Clique's case.

Is a plain beater, nothing more, no removing problem cards.



That said, i am still not sure about him.

Ill test him this week and return with new finding for those interested.

[GUnit]

Inexperienced players will often forgot the land you returned and makes them more afraid of Fow. (happened 3 times, really :P)




The fact that this happened three times during playtesting, and that you can't possibly have been playtesting for that long, given that you hadn't done any a day ago, makes me seriously doubt the quality and validity of your playtest results.

"My playtest partners were awful at magic; yours could be too!" is not sound justification for changes to a decklist.

[Volrath]

The fact that this happened three times during playtesting, and that you can't possibly have been playtesting for that long, given that you hadn't done any a day ago, makes me seriously doubt the quality and validity of your playtest results.

"My playtest partners were awful at magic; yours could be too!" is not sound justification for changes to a decklist.

All games where on MWS btw, i only play real life Magic on Friday's and on Sunday's.

I can't help lots of people on MWS are dumbasses, but there should be some real life dumbasses as well.

Of course MWS testings don't prove a lot, that's why is say i'm still sceptical.
I'll test it Friday and continue MWS'ing, but it looks sad for the drake atm.

[Purgatory]

All games where on MWS btw, i only play real life Magic on Friday's and on Sunday's.

I can't help lots of people on MWS are dumbasses, but there should be some real life dumbasses as well.

Of course MWS testings don't prove a lot, that's why is say i'm still sceptical.
I'll test it Friday and continue MWS'ing, but it looks sad for the drake atm.

You can't base strategies on the assumptions that your opponents will be idiots.

Well, you can, technically, but I'd say it'd be unwise to do so.

[Volrath]

You can't base strategies on the assumptions that your opponents will be idiots.

Well, you can, technically, but I'd say it'd be unwise to do so.

That's not what i am saying.

All i said was : If you happen to stumble upon a player that's not very experienced or is easily distracted, you ca bluff them by adding two land to your hand, since they can forget that they where lands.

Nothing strategie, yust something that has happened 3 times on mws.

[JohnBaltimore]

That's not what i am saying.

All i said was : If you happen to stumble upon a player that's not very experienced or is easily distracted, you ca bluff them by adding two land to your hand, since they can forget that they where lands.

Nothing strategie, yust something that has happened 3 times on mws.

I am beginning to beat a dead horse, however this is not a Pro for Sea Drake what so ever. In order for it to fit the deck, it needs to benefit you in many circumstances. An opponent's inexperience/poor decisions, though a possibility, is not a circumstance that is productive for testing.

More on topic -

Is there any additional creatures that have been tested for the 2x Flex Spot? So far I've seen Vendilion Clique as the main critter to play. Grim Lavamancer, as mentioned, destroys the synergy of the deck ,and IMO - is an extremely poor choice for the deck.

[Volrath]

I am beginning to beat a dead horse, however this is not a Pro for Sea Drake what so ever. In order for it to fit the deck, it needs to benefit you in many circumstances. An opponent's inexperience/poor decisions, though a possibility, is not a circumstance that is productive for testing.

More on topic -

Is there any additional creatures that have been tested for the 2x Flex Spot? So far I've seen Vendilion Clique as the main critter to play. Grim Lavamancer, as mentioned, destroys the synergy of the deck ,and IMO - is an extremely poor choice for the deck.

Burning Tree Shaman
Fledgling Dragon
Trygon Predator
Magus of the Moon

Have seen some play at some point, the fact is, Clique is the only thing worthwile anymore.

Lavamancers can be good, but you need to cut the mongeese.(only do this when you excpect 99% aggro orso)

[wolfstorm]

Burning Tree Shaman
Fledgling Dragon
Trygon Predator
Magus of the Moon

Have seen some play at some point, the fact is, Clique is the only thing worthwile anymore.

Lavamancers can be good, but you need to cut the mongeese.(only do this when you excpect 9% aggro orso)

Me and my friends have played/tested with 2x main board lavamancers in the flex spot and we've never really had problems getting or keeping threshold with them. They help the merfolk matchup a bunch and kill silly things like confidant's hippies mishra's factory (most of the time) and make sure your goyf's beat other goyf's.

[Volrath]

Me and my friends have played/tested with 2x main board lavamancers in the flex spot and we've never really had problems getting or keeping threshold with them. They help the merfolk matchup a bunch and kill silly things like confidant's hippies mishra's factory (most of the time) and make sure your goyf's beat other goyf's.

He has it's moments, but usually he keeps Geese on a short leash.

But, against merfolk he is a beast.

[Maggical]

Hi there, I've been playing Threshold Decks for a while now, mainly Canadian, and I'm comfortable with this list:

MD:

4x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
3x Tropical Island
3x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland
1x Island

4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Tarmogoyf

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Fire/Ice
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Spell Snare
4x Stifle
1x Spell Pierce
1x Wipe Away

SB:

4x Submerge
4x Pyroclasm
3x Krosan Grip
3x Divert
1x Relic of the Progenitus

I'm having real problems when the sideboarding time comes, and I usually end up taking out 1 of each card and things like that...

Can anyone give me some advices on sideboarding and the reasons behind it, mainly against this decks:

Counter-Top
Merfolk
Black Discard
Dredge
Affinity

Any ideas on the sideboard are welcomed too, but if you can stick to this list it would be awesome.

Thanks a lot,

Maggical

[Purgatory]

@Maggical: I won't comment on your maindeck choices, mainly because the whole basic land debate is about as old as the internet by now.

Your sideboard, however, could use some work in my opinion:

4x Submerge (Fine choice, excellent against Zoo and other green-based aggro decks)
4x Pyroclasm (Why four of these? How much Merfolk do you expect?)
3x Krosan Grip (Fine)
3x Divert (Could be and should be Spell Pierce instead)
1x Relic of the Progenitus (What?)

Relic will hurt you as well, unless you crack it really early. Tormod's Crypt will be just as good as this against Ichorid, and nearly as good against Loam (Terravore can still be out of bolt's reach even after a Crypt has been cracked). Further, only one of these will not suffice.

I say: Play some Crypts, Ichorid is stepping up to be a real force in the metagame, and they are a bad match-up for us. Think about adding Spell Pierce and red blasts as well, they are truly great sideboard cards.

As far as the sideboarding strategies goes, I think you will have to test it for yourself, as that is the best way how to learn how to sideboard. I will share with you some of the most boarded out cards in my deck:

All Stifle (against decks without fetchlands - such as Merfolk, DStompy etc.)
All Fire/Ice (against decks where everything is too big to be burned - Zoo etc.)
All Daze (against other tempo-based decks when I know I will be going second)
All Spell Snare (against decks with higher mana curves or few spells - DStompy, Ichorid)

Also, if none of the above is applicable, I usually board out singletons of some cards that I find less useful. It's more about gut feeling than preparation, really, since Legacy is so diverse. Play a lot with a sideboard configuration you feel comfortable with and you'll do fine.

[Maggical]

I'm expecting several Merfolk and Counter-Top decks really...

Maybe I will play 2x Tormod's Crypt and remove 1x Divert from the sideboard...

My main concern is CounterTop... Everything on the deck seems to work against them, how can I sideboard well? :S

[Purgatory]

I'm expecting several Merfolk and Counter-Top decks really...

Maybe I will play 2x Tormod's Crypt and remove 1x Divert from the sideboard...

My main concern is CounterTop... Everything on the deck seems to work against them, how can I sideboard well? :S

Well, Engineered Explosives and red blasts are good against Merfolk as well. After all, they only need 2 out of like 10 lords in play to stop Pyroclasm.

When it comes to boarding against CounterTop, it depends a lot on their build. I usually board out Fire/Ice if they don't run black with Confidants and whatnot, and if I win game 1 I usually side out Daze for Spell Pierce. Grips are good, naturally, as are red blasts.

[Maggical]

CounterTop builds here play with Rhox War Monk

Yeah, I've used Explosives before, maybe the sideboard should look more like this:

4x Submerge
3x Krosan Grip
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Explosives
2x Firespout
2x Divert

Having:

- Against CounterTop: 4x Submerge, 3x Krosan Grip
- Against Merfolk: 2x Explosives, 2x Firespout
- Against Dredge: 2x Tormod's Crypt, 2x Explosives

Better, right?

I think I should sideboard something like:

- Against CounterTop: 4x Fire/Ice, 1x Stifle, 2x Daze
- Against Merfolk: 4x Stifle
- Against Dredge: 4x Stifle

What do you think?

[mchainmail]

All Spell Snare (against decks with higher mana curves or few spells - DStompy, Ichorid)

Doesn't Spell Snare give you answers to t1 chalice at 1 if you're on the play? (I don't know if that's a good enough reason though.)

[Purgatory]

Again, you're not siding in Divert against anything listed above. Why the hate for Spell Pierce and Pyroblast/REB?

Also, against Dredge, I would side out Spell Snare before Stifle. Spell Snare is a dead draw and Stifle can always be used against Moebas in a pinch.

[Maggical]

Yeah, I misstyped there, against Dredge I should side out Spell Snare.

Red Elemental Blast would be great...

Divert really works well against Black discard, and I always face a couple on local tournaments here, same with burn decks...

[Atog]

CounterTop builds here play with Rhox War Monk

Yeah, I've used Explosives before, maybe the sideboard should look more like this:

4x Submerge
3x Krosan Grip
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Explosives
2x Firespout
2x Divert

Having:

- Against CounterTop: 4x Submerge, 3x Krosan Grip
- Against Merfolk: 2x Explosives, 2x Firespout
- Against Dredge: 2x Tormod's Crypt, 2x Explosives

Better, right?

I think I should sideboard something like:

- Against CounterTop: 4x Fire/Ice, 1x Stifle, 2x Daze
- Against Merfolk: 4x Stifle
- Against Dredge: 4x Stifle

What do you think?

Against dredge you don't really want side out stifles. Just because they hit Cephalid coliseum, narcomoeba trigger, ichorid trigger, bridge trigger and after sb you could exile Greater Gargadon for good. So i would recommend to side out spell snares for tormod's crypts and EE:s.

[Purgatory]

Yeah, I misstyped there, against Dredge I should side out Spell Snare.

Red Elemental Blast would be great...

Divert really works well against Black discard, and I always face a couple on local tournaments here, same with burn decks...

It does rock against Hymns etc., but I find myself beating them without having to resort to things like Divert. Spell Pierce is generally a lot more versatile, it is an amazing card. Just try it out and you'll know what I mean. I play 4 now, because 3 weren't enough :)

@Atog: Good point about the Colosseums, I forgot about those.

[Maggical]

Then some quick questions about how those rules work:

- Narcomoeba: so when they put it in the graveyard and it's ability triggers I can stifle it not minding the card being in the graveyard? what happens? it just goes to the graveyard normally?

- Ichorid: so, they remove their black creature and never put the ichorid into play? can they play the ability again removing another black creature, right?

- Bridge from Below: so, a creature goes to the graveyard, it triggers the bfb and I stifle the ability, negating them their token? Can i do that with a card in the graveyard?

Thanks,

Javier

[Julian23]

1.) The Nacromoeba stays in the graveyard just where it was when you stifled its ability.

2.) Ichorid stays in the graveyard just where it was when you stifled its ability. They won't however remove a black creature from the graveyard as this would be part of the resolution of Ichorid's triggered ability (which you countered!). After that they can't remove a creature "again" b/c there's no ability on the stack that would allow them to.

3.) Yes, you can do that. You never target any card in the graveyard with Stifle but triggered or activated abilities on the stack. This means you can "even" counter abilities of permanents with shroud.

Remember, you never target cards but abilities on the stack with it.

[Atog]

Then some quick questions about how those rules work:

- Narcomoeba: so when they put it in the graveyard and it's ability triggers I can stifle it not minding the card being in the graveyard? what happens? it just goes to the graveyard normally?

- Ichorid: so, they remove their black creature and never put the ichorid into play? can they play the ability again removing another black creature, right?

- Bridge from Below: so, a creature goes to the graveyard, it triggers the bfb and I stifle the ability, negating them their token? Can i do that with a card in the graveyard?

Thanks,

Javier

Another thing to add, you can stifle ichorid's ability what would give them tokens if there are bridges at graveyard, so ichorid will stay at battlefield if you stifle this trigger "At the beginning of the end step, sacrifice Ichorid.". That can be useful sometimes when you have leathal on board and they think they get couple zombies to block your dudes, but whoops.

[andrew77]

Have been testing this list for a while now...

4 grim lavamancer
3 meddling mage
2 jotun grunt
2 vendillion clique

4 swords to plowshares
4 stifle
4 daze
4 force of will
2 fire/ice
3 spell snare
4 brainstorm

2 engineered explosives
2 vedalken shackles

4 wateland
2 island
1 plains
3 tundra
3 volcanic
4 flooded strand
3 scalding tarn

From testing all I can say is that grim lavamancer is a complete house. Most decks have to answer him or they lose. For the most part the deck does quite well although I do have a couple of concerns.

The first is the fact that I feel like I don't run enough threats. Most of the games that I lose to zoo will usually happen when my opponent just burns all my guys. We then end up in topdeck mode and they usually win because if I draw a guy he gets burned and they tend to draw relevant spells while I can hit dazes and stifles.

Anyone have thought/ideas?

[TOGITwill]

Isn't that why thresh runs green? So that they can't burn the 4/5 Goyf or shrouded Mongoose? I think that threat survivability is what you sacrifice when playing UWr.

[andrew77]

Isn't that why thresh runs green? So that they can't burn the 4/5 Goyf or shrouded Mongoose? I think that threat survivability is what you sacrifice when playing UWr.

If the zoo player tries to go for the kill with burn though or if they are running a list that is a little light on burn they usually lose. The more I think about it though the more I feel like stifle/wasteland are out of place. The deck doesn't really generate enough tempo for them and they become terrible late game draws.

EDIT: I have decided to cut the stifle wasteland package in favor of goyfs. The addition of goyfs creates additional room so I will see what else I can fit into those slots.

[Purgatory]

If the zoo player tries to go for the kill with burn though or if they are running a list that is a little light on burn they usually lose. The more I think about it though the more I feel like stifle/wasteland are out of place. The deck doesn't really generate enough tempo for them and they become terrible late game draws.

EDIT: I have decided to cut the stifle wasteland package in favor of goyfs. The addition of goyfs creates additional room so I will see what else I can fit into those slots.

Then you should probably post the deck in another thread since without the Wasteland/Stifle package and green your list will inevitably turn out vastly different from the Tempo Thresh lists we're discussing here.

Not trying to be a jerk or anything, I just don't think that the deck would benefit from being posted here.

[Cenarius]

I see some really weird lists going on. So let's point out mine. After talking with Adan, he gave me some good advises for a black splash Tempo Threshold list. I've tested them and they feel incredibly. So let's have a look.

4 Dark Confidant (this card is absolutely nuts, you really win games by resolving and protecting it)
4 Nimble Mongoose (become better, because you've better removal)
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Ghastly Demise (no idea if the split package is better, but it's just more versatile by doing so)
4 Force of Will
3 Smother
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

4 Ponder

4 Flooded Strand (you can pick something else for that ofcourse)
4 Polluted Delta (" ")
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

//Sideboard

3 Spell Pierce
3 Pithing Needle
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Engineered Plague (I'm not sure about this, during testing Merfolk and Goblins were both positive.)
4 Mind Harness (Submerge is just not that good)

So let me talk about this list. It is designed to have a (far) better matchup against:

Rock (they don't play tombstalker here)
Countertop
Zoo
Landstill
Agro Loam
Reanimator (if Iona says red XD)
and other midrange decks

The following matchups become weaker, although I'm not sure about how much:

Goblins
Merfolk
Combo

During testing the deck seemed incredibly strong. 12 creatures is like MANY, which is nice actually. All in all, I think you should test this list. It's great.

[o13g]

4 Mind Harness (Submerge is just not that good)
...
So let me talk about this list. It is designed to have a (far) better matchup against:
...
Countertop
Zoo
Agro Loam


I would like to note that historically Submerge has been one of the best sideboard options for threshold decks, specifically for tempo-oriented ones.
It looks like it's been discussed and proven 2304987 times already so I can't justify yet another half-page of text for Submerge vs Mind Harness analysis.

[Purgatory]

I would like to note that historically Submerge has been one of the best sideboard options for threshold decks, specifically for tempo-oriented ones.
It looks like it's been discussed and proven 2304987 times already so I can't justify yet another half-page of text for Submerge vs Mind Harness analysis.

Agreed, Submerge is an absolutely brilliant sideboard card. I'd say try it at least, or do a split between it and mind harness if you hate Submerge so much. I was surprised by it, I must say, but it has worked out really well for me.

[GUnit]

It's impossible, I think, to make an optimal sideboard as your metgame expectations constantly shift, but perhaps it would be a useful conversation to identify all of our "best" sideboard cards so that when we can predict a given metagame we can decide what the board should look like easily. This approach seems more useful and generally applicable than the "Hey, check out my deck; Whaddaya think???" approach.

[Cenarius]

Actually the Submerge vs Mind Harness is NOT discussed thoroughly. The discussion over here is all about whether to play basics or not. People started assuming that Submerge is/was better only because David Caplan runs them. That is no discussion about submerge if you ask me. I have, for about, 1.5 years submerge in my sideboard and went from 4 --> 3 --> 2 --> 3 to 0. This is done by serious testing.

During testing the following things came up:

Submerge is good against players who don't know the card or are not that good. People who actually need to fetch when they're winning already, but why do you need to fetch if your goyf rides you to the victory?
Submerge is mediocre to bad against players who know the card. Sometimes it can help you with a game. Most of the times it's just a free bounce card that gives you one more turn to live.

You can, ofcourse, name several examples where submerge is good. The same goes for Mind Harness. But isn't gaining control of your opponents' creature, far better than possibly removing it from the game.

I have to make a sidenote ofcourse. Submerge is especially good against:

Dreadnought
Tombstalker
and?

Well, my list plays 6! hard removal spells against Dreadnoughts (3 Ghastly Demise, 3 Smother). Ghastly demise ís a removal only when they don't have berserk fast hands. It's easy to get twelve cards already at turn 5 on average. Tombstalker is not played here in the Rock. So why would I play Submerge over Mind Harness then? I see no reason for that, to be honest.

You might not agree with me. That's fine. But let me tell you that in this list (and probably RTT too) that Mind Harness ís better than Submerge when you don't have Tombstalkers and Dreadnoughts in your metagame.

[Volrath]

Actually the Submerge vs Mind Harness is NOT discussed thoroughly. The discussion over here is all about whether to play basics or not. People started assuming that Submerge is/was better only because David Caplan runs them. That is no discussion about submerge if you ask me. I have, for about, 1.5 years submerge in my sideboard and went from 4 --> 3 --> 2 --> 3 to 0. This is done by serious testing.

During testing the following things came up:

Submerge is good against players who don't know the card or are not that good. People who actually need to fetch when they're winning already, but why do you need to fetch if your goyf rides you to the victory?
Submerge is mediocre to bad against players who know the card. Sometimes it can help you with a game. Most of the times it's just a free bounce card that gives you one more turn to live.

You can, ofcourse, name several examples where submerge is good. The same goes for Mind Harness. But isn't gaining control of your opponents' creature, far better than possibly removing it from the game.

I have to make a sidenote ofcourse. Submerge is especially good against:

Dreadnought
Tombstalker
and?

Well, my list plays 6! hard removal spells against Dreadnoughts (3 Ghastly Demise, 3 Smother). Ghastly demise ís a removal only when they don't have berserk fast hands. It's easy to get twelve cards already at turn 5 on average. Tombstalker is not played here in the Rock. So why would I play Submerge over Mind Harness then? I see no reason for that, to be honest.

You might not agree with me. That's fine. But let me tell you that in this list (and probably RTT too) that Mind Harness ís better than Submerge when you don't have Tombstalkers and Dreadnoughts in your metagame.

I do agree that taking a critter is better then bouncing one, but consider the following.

Submerge is free
Submerge doens't have a upkeep cost.
Submerge can't be killed by a Pridemage(although, most poeple board them out against TT)

I have played with Harness for almost a year, but sometimes you want to bounce that Confidant or want to eot trick them with it.

Also, Submerge is also good against CB, Harness is not.

[Cenarius]

I do agree taht taking a critter is better then bouncing one, but consider the following.

Submerge is free
Submerge doens't have a upkeep cost.
Submerge can't be killed by a Pridemage(although, most poeple board them out against TT)

I have played with Harness for almost a year, but sometimes you want to bounce that Confidant or want to eot trick them with it.

Also, Submerge is also good against CB, Harness is not.

The only good argument you gave is that Submerge is good against CB and that Harness isn't. That's completely true. But:

Why do you want to bounce a Dark Confidant if you can also have it? Dark Confidant is absolutely thé NUTS in this deck ^^.
Casting cost 1 isn't really dramatic is it? I know it's sorcery speed but common: casting cost 1 isn't bad.
Let me tell you about the upkeep cost: What do you want:

Pay 1 mana each turn and attack your opponent with a 4/5 goyf which he needs to handle or he loses
Pay 0 mana to bounce a Goyf, possibly removing it from the game. With no threath on the board.

Don't ask me the question, but what if he plays another Goyf when you have a Mind Harness'd Goyf? You would have died aswell when playing Submerge.

@ GUnit

I personally believe that my list is pretty good. Why can't I post my list to tell people about a possible new build of Tempo Threshold WITH (some) comments?
About the perfect sideboard:

There ís a perfect sideboard for your metagame. Some guys are just looking in a sort of tunnelvision. Just ask yourself: How does your metagame look like? What do I need to make these matchups better.

I think every sideboard should include this right now:

3-4 Spell Pierce
3 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroclasm / or some other card because you don't play red
3/4 Mind Harness / Submerge
And flex slots

[Volrath]

The only good argument you gave is that Submerge is good against CB and that Harness isn't. That's completely true. But:

Why do you want to bounce a Dark Confidant if you can also have it? Dark Confidant is absolutely thé NUTS in this deck ^^.
Casting cost 1 isn't really dramatic is it? I know it's sorcery speed but common: casting cost 1 isn't bad.
Let me tell you about the upkeep cost: What do you want:

Pay 1 mana each turn and attack your opponent with a 4/5 goyf which he needs to handle or he loses
Pay 0 mana to bounce a Goyf, possibly removing it from the game. With no threath on the board.

Don't ask me the question, but what if he plays another Goyf when you have a Mind Harness'd Goyf? You would have died aswell when playing Submerge.

@ GUnit

I personally believe that my list is pretty good. Why can't I post my list to tell people about a possible new build of Tempo Threshold WITH (some) comments?
About the perfect sideboard:

There ís a perfect sideboard for your metagame. Some guys are just looking in a sort of tunnelvision. Just ask yourself: How does your metagame look like? What do I need to make these matchups better.

I think every sideboard should include this right now:

3-4 Spell Pierce
3 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroclasm / or some other card because you don't play red
3/4 Mind Harness / Submerge
And flex slots


I sure hope you are kidding, read the card you praise so much and you will see why Confidants poses a problem vs harness.

Also, you mostly opperate on 2/3 mana, you can only keep the creature around for 3 turns and you cant even safely counter/ponder/cast goyfs/geese/bolts/fire/ice those turns.

[Cenarius]

I was confused ofcourse. Thought you were talking about Tarmogoyf but you were talking about Dark Confidant instead.
I know that Mind Harness is no answer to Dark Confidant. But seriously, how many decks do play Dark Confidant anymore?

Rock doesn't play it anymore.
Countertop only wants to go BANT or go red for Firespout
Is there any other deck else that might play him, that goes to the high table's?

[Volrath]

The fact that CB often goes to the high tables and confidant/stalker/dreadnought/loam/pridemage still see play is often enough reason to play Submerge over Harnes these days.

And the Rock still plays confidants, so do certain BUG lists and some Loam decks.

[johanessen]

Oups sorry though you were talking about Ugr thresh

[GUnit]

Harness seems much more of a High Risk, High Reward card to me than Submerge, which doesn't suit my style of play at all. I don't need to blow my opponent out; I just need something that I can consistently rely on to squeak by with.

[Cenarius]

Against certain decks YOU need to be the agressor. Mind Harness enables that.

Rock doesn't play Confidants anymore. Tenminste niet in Nederland voor zover ik weet.

"The fact that CB often goes to the high tables and confidant/stalker/dreadnought/loam/pridemage still see play is often enough reason to play Submerge over Harnes these days."

Stalker doesn't see much play. They only play 2 if they play them. I'll take those two for granted.
I have 6 hard removal for Dreadnought, something UGR can't say.
Loam can't be dealt by either Submerge or Mind Harness. It isn't a creature. Nah, but seriously. Mind Harness is way better there.
Pridgemage gets boarded out almost all the time. Even if they keep them in: a U destroy a creature card is in fact pretty good, isn't it?
CB/top does see play ofcourse. When you're playing Mind Harness the only thing you'll need to do is keep CB/top from the board. But that happens to be the exact same when you're playing Submerge, isn't it? I mean, you can't win if they have a CB/Top active.

I think we can continue discussing about Mind Harness and Submerge. There are always examples where Submerge is better, but I believe that overall Mind Harness is better in my metagame. Dus ook die van jou.

[TrialByFire]

You guys are thinking of Submerge too often as a defensive card. Its an offensive card. It clears out blockers and Time Walks them through CB. If they're terrible it can get rid of a creature but that doesn't happen often. Mind Harness forces you to tap out for your turn which is not what this deck wants to accomplish. Sure if you're behind and have no creatures or something, Mind Harness might randomly save you, but Submerge being free and just so amazing at dealing with creatures is all it needs to do. This deck isn't a control deck, it doesn't need to control the whole game. It just needs to win as quickly as possible before they have a chance to catch up with you. And Submerge is just so awesome at setting them back.

[Purgatory]

I think we can continue discussing about Mind Harness and Submerge. There are always examples where Submerge is better, but I believe that overall Mind Harness is better in my metagame. Dus ook die van jou.

Unless every deck in my metagame starts running nothing but Terravores, I don't think I will get rid of Submerge anytime soon. In my metagame, and in most metagames, I firmly believe that Submerge is the optimal choice, for the reasons explained by Trialbyfire.

[Jayzonious]

The only good argument you gave is that Submerge is good against CB and that Harness isn't. That's completely true. But:

Why do you want to bounce a Dark Confidant if you can also have it? Dark Confidant is absolutely thé NUTS in this deck ^^.

Your not going to convince anyone by writing paragraphs based on impossibilities.

[damionblackgear]

*Rock Player* Mind Harness is difficult but most of the time we bring in choke which makes that timeline for Harness drop drastically and, we're more than happy to not have to deal with you having Islands. Destroying/Racing a single critter is usually easy enough.

Submerge is a lot more problematic because we only play a couple of threats and a lot of shuffle effects (the fact that it's free is just a bonus). Granted, without a shuffle effect it's just a stall but sometimes that 1 turn can be enough.

This holds true for most other mid-ranged decks as well.

Hope you don't mind me adding to your conversation. Just thought it was a funny argument. Rock based decks still play Bob (at least about 90% of us).

[Volt]

Hope you don't mind me adding to your conversation. Just thought it was a funny argument. Rock based decks still play Bob (at least about 90% of us).

Aggro-Loam usually plays Bob, too.

[Volrath]

Aggro-Loam usually plays Bob, too.


You guys are thinking of Submerge too often as a defensive card. Its an offensive card. It clears out blockers and Time Walks them through CB. If they're terrible it can get rid of a creature but that doesn't happen often. Mind Harness forces you to tap out for your turn which is not what this deck wants to accomplish. Sure if you're behind and have no creatures or something, Mind Harness might randomly save you, but Submerge being free and just so amazing at dealing with creatures is all it needs to do. This deck isn't a control deck, it doesn't need to control the whole game. It just needs to win as quickly as possible before they have a chance to catch up with you. And Submerge is just so awesome at setting them back.


*Rock Player* Mind Harness is difficult but most of the time we bring in choke which makes that timeline for Harness drop drastically and, we're more than happy to not have to deal with you having Islands. Destroying/Racing a single critter is usually easy enough.

Submerge is a lot more problematic because we only play a couple of threats and a lot of shuffle effects (the fact that it's free is just a bonus). Granted, without a shuffle effect it's just a stall but sometimes that 1 turn can be enough.

This holds true for most other mid-ranged decks as well.

Hope you don't mind me adding to your conversation. Just thought it was a funny argument. Rock based decks still play Bob (at least about 90% of us).

Thank you, my point exatly

lets sum this up.

Submerge is free, comes through a CB, can target any creature(without Shroud blablabla), can possibly be a time walk, has no further mana investment,is not destroyable(new word?)by a random predator/pridemage and can possibly remove the creature for good.

I think these are enough reasons for it to warrent a SB spot instead of Harness, unless the only creature played in your meta is Terravore.

[BastiaanB]

The problem i have with Mind Harness is that i can't rely on it. They can get rid of it and this can bring you in more difficult situations. An Engineered explosives or a deed are cards you see often and they are problems for the harness.

I don't think harness is a bad choice, Submerge just seems better at the moment.

[Cenarius]

Well, frankly I disagree with all of you except the argument of Jarzonious and damionblackgear. I can't win any discussion by saying pretty weird stuff. Let's say that was a brainfart. I saw that most decks do play 4 Dark Confidant, so you're right about that. I'll play 2 Ghastly Demise and 4 Smother, from now on.

First, I post the metagame of our last Grand Prix Trial (65 players):

10 Bant (with or without Cb/top)
7 Landstill
7 Rock
7 Merfolk
5 Combo
2-3 Reanimator
2-3 Ichorid
About 25 "random" decks. It's unsure what they played. Selfmade decks and/or lower table decks that do not matter in any case.

Second, there are two version "on the market" for the Rock in Holland:

One with Recurring Nightmare
One without playing 7 discard, elspeth etc.

and one weird list:
3/4 Mattias Kres Rock

1 forest
1 plains
4 windswept heath
3 savannah
3 wasteland
1 nantuko monastery
1 verdant catacombs
3 scrubland
4 marsh flats
1 bayou

4 tarmogoyf
3 qasali pridemage
4 knight of the reliquary
1 gaddock teeg
1 ethersworn cannonist
1 shriekmaw
1 eternal witness

3 elspeth, knight-errant
4 swords to plowshares
4 sensei's divining top
4 vindicate
3 orims chant
1 isochron scepter
1 umezawa's jitte
2 diabolic edict

The toplists don't play Tombstalker, and most play Dark Confidant.

To summarize: out of 65 players there were only about 7 Dark Confidant kind of decks. We can't even be sure if all the rock lists played there, actually played Dark Confidant. But let's just stick with that. It's a percentage of only 11% (rounded up). So a situation where you'll have a Mind Harness, with no smother's in hand and no counters in hand, will not usually show up. Does it?

@TrialByFire
Now lets start with Submerge. Your argument of Submerge being an offensive card can only true when you actually have a creature. So submerge is only good when you have a creature since you'll play it offensively by timewalking OR when your opponent fetches. Correct? Yes. Since we only have 8 creatures (well mine actually has 12, although you can't rely on Dark Confidant as a beater that much, it draws more creatures though) having every single time a creature on the board that actually sticks is pretty hard. Atleast, it showed up for about 1,5 years of extensive testing against Rock/Countertop.
Submerge are just not good enough when playing against good players. They don't fetch when they're winning and they certainly will keep your creatures from the board or just play bigger creatures than you. It's pretty annoying when you actually have a Submerge in your hand, but can't use it. I mean bouncing a creature doesn't really matter that much if you can't deal them 3 or 4 damage that turn. They'll simply play it again and start beating.

Well, first I thought you guys just haven't played Mind Harness at all. But this is just weird:

"Sure if you're behind and have no creatures or something, Mind Harness might randomly save you, but Submerge being free and just so amazing at dealing with creatures is all it needs to do. This deck isn't a control deck, it doesn't need to control the whole game. It just needs to win as quickly as possible before they have a chance to catch up with you. And Submerge is just so awesome at setting them back."

1. Mind Harness deals better with creatures than you might think.
2. Mind Harness gains CONTROL of your opponent's creature. So you either swing for 7 (Geese + Goyf as an example) or for more/less. Think this is a faster clock than timewalking once. If you don't have a creature on the board, you'll simply will ride to victory in most cases if you can protect it.
3. The upkeep cost isn't that hard to overcome. Fine pay 3 mana at sorcery speed. If it wins you the game it doesn't matter, does it? You play 8 counters that are free. Use them.
4. Why does Mind Harness means going on the control role? Doesn't it actually makes you faster? See above.

@ damionblackgear

With you playing choke doesn't really change the discussion about Submerge v. Choke. Our chances of winning the game with a choke on the table, whatever removal we might bring in the game, will be slim. I'll think Rock is more afraid of 8 possible Goyfs than from one bounce. I know that the Rock do play a lot of shuffle effects. But are you really going to shuffle when you know your opponent has a submerge in hand or in his deck? Speechless......

@ Volrath

You become predictable. You kinda said it all at your previous post where you already summarized it, however you completely ignored my post. So I'll think I'll have to make you aware of my post.

But this statement is weird again:
"I think these are enough reasons for it to warrent a SB spot instead of Harness, unless the only creature played in your meta is Terravore."

Read the card, please. It can also gain control of red creatures aswell.

Submerge has a lot of When's to be honest:


Can possibly be a time walk, this is only good when you actually have a creature.
Pridemage usually gets sideboard out against TT.
You'll loose when a Countertop engine is online. It's just a matter of time, you'll need a creature on the table already to have a chance.
Can only remove creatures, when they fetch. But who fetches when they're winning?
Personally, I'll like to take the investment of either tapping 1,2,3,4 mana to win the game.


Anyway, to summarize:

1. Probably you haven't played with Mind Harness, since you come up with some weird stuff.
2. My list plays black. That means I don't play burn and Ice, Mind Harness does make my clock faster.

You guys need to test the card. There is nothing more to say. I think I said nearly every argument there is to play Mind Harness. If you don't test, well, I don't really care, maybe I convinced one. I'm satisfied by that feeling.

[Wargoos]

You guys need to test the card. There is nothing more to say. I think I said nearly every argument there is to play Mind Harness. If you don't test, well, I don't really care, maybe I convinced one. I'm satisfied by that feeling.

Honestly, I just can agree.

I actually tested it in merfolk but am packing them now in my can. thresh side -
it won me with merfolk my 2 matchups against zoo and one against goblins at the last tourney.
Yeah, it's THAT good.
I know I don't show any arguments but well, cenarius said it all and I don't want to repeat. Just making clear, that it's not just him having good results with the card.

[TrialByFire]

Whatever, I'm done having an across ocean pissing contest. If Mind Harness works for you, great. Submerge works for me. Other players, test both and see which one you like better. I am in no way saying that Mind Harness is a bad card, I've actually won a bunch of games with it previously when it was in my sideboard. I just think that Submerge is better suited to the way I play. Discussion ended.

[Cenarius]

Whatever, I'm done having an across ocean pissing contest. If Mind Harness works for you, great. Submerge works for me. Other players, test both and see which one you like better. I am in no way saying that Mind Harness is a bad card, I've actually won a bunch of games with it previously when it was in my sideboard. I just think that Submerge is better suited to the way I play. Discussion ended.

I'm interested to know if someone is willing to test the UGb tempo threshold I posted on the previous page with me. With -1 Ghastly Demise +1 Smother. We can get faster results about what is better, red or black. And in what metagame's they're better. Etc.

[Purgatory]

I'm interested to know if someone is willing to test the UGb tempo threshold I posted on the previous page with me. With -1 Ghastly Demise +1 Smother. We can get faster results about what is better, red or black. And in what metagame's they're better. Etc.

I have played some black thresh on MWS, but with Pulses and whatnot instead of Demise. I think I ran 3 Smothers, 3 Pulses. The problem is, I don't have the cards to test the deck IRL.

[damionblackgear]

@ damionblackgear

With you playing choke doesn't really change the discussion about Submerge v. Choke. Our chances of winning the game with a choke on the table, whatever removal we might bring in the game, will be slim. I'll think Rock is more afraid of 8 possible Goyfs than from one bounce. I know that the Rock do play a lot of shuffle effects. But are you really going to shuffle when you know your opponent has a submerge in hand or in his deck? Speechless......

To be honest with you, most of the time we have to. Knowing it's there doesn't matter. We know you play Stifle and still fetch, we suspect Submerge will come in the next game(s) and still shuffle. We can't play it safe becuase we don't have that luxury. And 1 creature gone is better than you locked out of your lands to actually present a threat.

[johanessen]

This past weekend I took canadian to a weekly tournament and win with the classic list, playing 8 fetch and 6 duals, and two vendillion in the flex slots. The sideboard was:
4 Submerge
4 Spell Pierce
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm

Submerges were good all forest long, helped against aggroloam when they had calice@1 and I had a Mongoose already on the battelfield applying pressure, were Mind Harness would have done anything. Bounced some Tarmogoyf to get Spell Snared the turn after and helped against naya burn and bant loam to bounce when i wanted to play some beaters in my turn while having mana open to be able to counter some evil spells.

With Spell Pierce we no longer need Krosan Grip, Spell Pierce is amazing! Combo, Reanimator, I sided em even against Naya burn (Tarmosligh) for FoW. It's also very good against Landstill, Enchantress.... Actually I think Canadian has the best sideboard of all Decks in Legacy. On that relies the real power of Canadian Threshold.

[Atog]

This past weekend I took canadian to a weekly tournament and win with the classic list, playing 8 fetch and 6 duals, and two vendillion in the flex slots. The sideboard was:
4 Submerge
4 Spell Pierce
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm

Submerges were good all forest long, helped against aggroloam when they had calice@1 and I had a Mongoose already on the battelfield applying pressure, were Mind Harness would have done anything. Bounced some Tarmogoyf to get Spell Snared the turn after and helped against naya burn and bant loam to bounce when i wanted to play some beaters in my turn while having mana open to be able to counter some evil spells.

With Spell Pierce we no longer need Krosan Grip, Spell Pierce is amazing! Combo, Reanimator, I sided em even against Naya burn (Tarmosligh) for FoW. It's also very good against Landstill, Enchantress.... Actually I think Canadian has the best sideboard of all Decks in Legacy. On that relies the real power of Canadian Threshold.

How were cliques working for you? How did that switch spell pierces for FoW worked for you?

[johanessen]

They didn't really shine in that tournament because i didn't face any combo or pure control. But during my testing I liked em more than bouncers, they are the only beaters inmune to gy hate and that's huge.

Regarding the side of Fow for Spell Pierce against Naya Burn is there for two reasons:
-Fow deals one damage to you when you cast it, against a burn deck that's a drawback to be considered.
-Both Tarmogoyf and Price of Progress can be countered by Spell Snare, being Tarmogoyf Submergeable and PoP Spell-Pierceable. Apart from that, Naya Burn hasn't any real Bomb so that's why I swaped Fows for Spell Pierces.

[Atog]

They didn't really shine in that tournament because i didn't face any combo or pure control. But during my testing I liked em more than bouncers, they are the only beaters inmune to gy hate and that's huge.

Regarding the side of Fow for Spell Pierce against Naya Burn is there for two reasons:
-Fow deals one damage to you when you cast it, against a burn deck that's a drawback to be considered.
-Both Tarmogoyf and Price of Progress can be countered by Spell Snare, being Tarmogoyf Submergeable and PoP Spell-Pierceable. Apart from that, Naya Burn hasn't any real Bomb so that's why I swaped Fows for Spell Pierces.

Makes sense. Gotta test those Cliques, haven't tested them yet but they seems to have some potential.

[GUnit]

Cenarius, there are some major flaws with your arguments, the most glaring of which being that you're talking about a different deck!

First of all, we don't only play 8 creatures; we play 8 creatures, 4 brainstorms, 4 ponders and 6 fetchlands. It's very easy to find a creature when it's time to get down to business.

Secondly, it's not about "good" opponents and "bad" opponents. It's about submerge being incredibly synergetic with our (Tempo Threshold, not UGB non-tempo threshold) tempo-based strategy. I've never submerged a creature in response to a fetch in a tournament. Submerge has still been awesome pretty much every single time I've ever played it.

Third, Mind Harness has been tested and it's simply not very good in this deck. Maybe it's wonderful in your deck, which isn't Tempo Threshold. This doesn't seem like the appropriate place to tell everyone in the world how great it is, though.



Tempo Threshold is not a control deck. It is an aggressive deck which happens to protect its gameplan with some spells that control decks normally use. You're probably right that submerge isn't wonderful in your deck, but your deck is not Tempo Threshold. I am confused as to why this conversation is even taking place. The following paraphrases the argument I am seeing here:

"Mind Harness is much better than Submerge! I tested it in my UGb deck and submerge is awful!"

"Submerge is much better in Tempo Threshold due to its synergy with the tempo strategy in the deck and Mind Harness' inherent disynergy with the same strategy."

"No, you're wrong. Mind Harness is better. I tested it in my UGb deck that isn't anything like Tempo Threshold from a strategic point of view."

"No, you're wrong. We tested Mind Harness and Submerge is better in Tempo Threshold."

[Purgatory]

They didn't really shine in that tournament because i didn't face any combo or pure control. But during my testing I liked em more than bouncers, they are the only beaters inmune to gy hate and that's huge.

Regarding the side of Fow for Spell Pierce against Naya Burn is there for two reasons:
-Fow deals one damage to you when you cast it, against a burn deck that's a drawback to be considered.
-Both Tarmogoyf and Price of Progress can be countered by Spell Snare, being Tarmogoyf Submergeable and PoP Spell-Pierceable. Apart from that, Naya Burn hasn't any real Bomb so that's why I swaped Fows for Spell Pierces.

I don't have too much experience playing against Nayaburn, but I do have lots of experience playing against RG Goyfsligh, and I usually side out Daze for Spell Pierce if I know I'm going second in the following game. There are times when you just have to get the jump on your opponent, and using Daze to counter something if you only have one land in play can really set you back.

I do see the point of your strategy, but I think I'd rather keep FoW as it won't provide the same tempo drawback as Daze. Maybe we're supposed to be control against these decks, but I like to be able to play it aggressively if I do get a head start with Waste/Stifle.

[Cenarius]

Cenarius, there are some major flaws with your arguments, the most glaring of which being that you're talking about a different deck!

First of all, we don't only play 8 creatures; we play 8 creatures, 4 brainstorms, 4 ponders and 6 fetchlands. It's very easy to find a creature when it's time to get down to business.

Secondly, it's not about "good" opponents and "bad" opponents. It's about submerge being incredibly synergetic with our (Tempo Threshold, not UGB non-tempo threshold) tempo-based strategy. I've never submerged a creature in response to a fetch in a tournament. Submerge has still been awesome pretty much every single time I've ever played it.

Third, Mind Harness has been tested and it's simply not very good in this deck. Maybe it's wonderful in your deck, which isn't Tempo Threshold. This doesn't seem like the appropriate place to tell everyone in the world how great it is, though.



Tempo Threshold is not a control deck. It is an aggressive deck which happens to protect its gameplan with some spells that control decks normally use. You're probably right that submerge isn't wonderful in your deck, but your deck is not Tempo Threshold. I am confused as to why this conversation is even taking place. The following paraphrases the argument I am seeing here:

"Mind Harness is much better than Submerge! I tested it in my UGb deck and submerge is awful!"

"Submerge is much better in Tempo Threshold due to its synergy with the tempo strategy in the deck and Mind Harness' inherent disynergy with the same strategy."

"No, you're wrong. Mind Harness is better. I tested it in my UGb deck that isn't anything like Tempo Threshold from a strategic point of view."

"No, you're wrong. We tested Mind Harness and Submerge is better in Tempo Threshold."

Hard to stay positive after such reply....

It's not my flaw. You are not correctly reading my post. I posted an UGb Tempo Threshold list, with its sideboard. The comment about Mind Harness below, then triggered a discussion about Mind Harness v. Submerge.

Btw:
1.Do you think by adding Dark Confidant the list suddenly becomes "control"? 2.Do you think by adding (real) removal to the list, making your Nimble Mongoose better, makes your TT a "control" deck?

Before actually saying that my list plays "controllish", test it. You'll be suprised. I know you'll probably won't test it. So....

Moving onward, I just wanted to test black removal to actually have a chance against Rock and Dreadstill. I find these matchups very hard to win. They are. I know that Dark Confidant is pretty berserk, improving Countertop and Landstill and improving every deck when it stays on the table. I, personally, haven't missed burn during testing yet. The raw power of stronger removal and Dark Confidant seem great. The only things I miss are my Pyroclasms.

UGr Tempo Threshold plays 8 creatures.......
This is not changed by cantrips. Playing 8 cantrips and a suboptimal manabase (6 fetch...) makes it easier to find your 8 creatures.

Do you really think everyone tested Mind Harness? I don't think so. Did you? Don't lie. I also thought that Submerge was the most ideal card for UGr Tempo ******** sideboard. However, I just wanted to make people aware of different Sideboard cards, that's all. I believe Mind Harness SHOULD be tested.

Maybe things are clear now.....

[johanessen]

With creature you're refering to Beater or utility creature? Because your Ugb list plays 8 beaters while half of tempo thresholds runs 10 (2xVendillion Clique) . Sure, Confidant is a creature, but I think we are now referring in terms of beaters.

And yes, Confidant is control, not tempo.

[Houseofgames]

This is coming from a counter-top & Zoo player who is starting to dabble with Thresh.

Why not even a singleton Phyrexian Dreadnought? In fact could see Fire // Ice getting booted for 3 trinket mages and a Dreadnoght.... am I missing something obvious?

Also while inferior to Pyroclasm in the Dredge match-up wouldn't Firespout be better in virtually all other match-ups?

Thanks!

[Purgatory]

This is coming from a counter-top & Zoo player who is starting to dabble with Thresh.

Why not even a singleton Phyrexian Dreadnought? In fact could see Fire // Ice getting booted for 3 trinket mages and a Dreadnoght.... am I missing something obvious?

The Stifles are used (mainly) for the mana-denial plan together with Wasteland. Also, even getting to three mana to cast the Mage would be tough in some match-ups.



Also while inferior to Pyroclasm in the Dredge match-up wouldn't Firespout be better in virtually all other match-ups?

Thanks!

No, Firespout can kill Mongoose post-threshold, Pyroclasm does not. I wouldn't side it in against Zoo or other decks with 3+ toughness creatures in it anyway.

[Cenarius]

I was talking about creatures in general. Since he referred to creatures in general, aswell. Btw, you will be suprised when you test Dark Confidant. Dark Confidant actually beats more than you might think. Playing black gives you the option of playing real removal instead of burn. Making it easier to clear the board.

Have to mention it again. Test Dark Confidant. It isn't a control card. Trust me. It goes absolutely berserk in this deck. Drawing more:
Creatures
Counters
Removal
Cantrips
etc.

is kinda good. Or if it doesn't stick, it makes the way free for you Tarmogoyf.

[GUnit]

If you want to see Ugb thresh as simply an altered Tempo Thresh list- which I think is a poor way to view it based on the different approaches the two decks take- then my question becomes the following:

Why would you alter the main deck to improve matchups that you're already more than capable of winning at the expense of many other matchups?

In a diverse metagame, which legacy consistently seems to provide, it makes much more sense to play a well-rounded deck. This is yet another reason that Tempo Threshold has had the success that it has had so far, and why it has become the favoured version of the archetype formerly known as "thresh," of which your black deck is a member.


I don't think discussion of your deck belongs in this thread, but if you think that it does you could at least attempt to acknowledge what the overall gameplan of this archetype is (I'll give you a hint: it has nothing to do with card advantage or non-land board control). Thus far you have failed to do so.

[Adan]

Tempo Threshold is not a control deck. It is an aggressive deck which happens to protect its gameplan with some spells that control decks normally use. You're probably right that submerge isn't wonderful in your deck, but your deck is not Tempo Threshold. I am confused as to why this conversation is even taking place. The following paraphrases the argument I am seeing here:

I'm sorry, but straight to the head: You're talking 100% pure bullshit.

First of all, the black TempoThresh Cenarius is referring to plays the same manadenial-shell (which is Stifle-Waste) as well as the same countermagic shell (which is 4 Force, 4 Daze, 4 Spell Snare).

Both decks are able to make a high amount of 1-for-1 trades though these cards which make them both tempo and depending on the situation, you can play it like pure control (and that happens a lot of times!).

The slight difference between these 2 decks is the splash which also defines which role they can play better: Burn provides reach, therefore the deck CAN be more aggressive, but it lacks the ability to generate CA whereas black is able to do so via Dark Confidant. Additionally, black can play the control role better because it doesn't need to play Submerge. It has Smother to wreck every (EVERY) relevant creature that is played in Legacy.

Only Tombstalker then remains to be an issue, but you can play Diabolic Edicts to solve that. I also use to play 2 Engineered Explosives maindeck in UGb Tempo Thresh which also add to the control-plan whereas red plays bounce to apply pressure.

Both decks are Tempo Threshold, one is better at being aggressive and the other can play a way better control-role.

This doesn't mean that the black Threshold isn't capable to bash faces in, mind that Dark Confidant is a creature himself, who is extremely dangerous when he's not answered as he can beatdown while providing a constant flow of disruption.

I actually liked red better because of the REBs in the SB, simply because they were better than Thoughtseize, but now every other Threshold variant has got Spell Pierce as a on-color equivalent to REB.

However, these quotes:


"Mind Harness is much better than Submerge! I tested it in my UGb deck and submerge is awful!"

"Submerge is much better in Tempo Threshold due to its synergy with the tempo strategy in the deck and Mind Harness' inherent disynergy with the same strategy."

"No, you're wrong. Mind Harness is better. I tested it in my UGb deck that isn't anything like Tempo Threshold from a strategic point of view."

"No, you're wrong. We tested Mind Harness and Submerge is better in Tempo Threshold."

prove that you absolutely failed at analyzing the deck's concept. This circumstance is amplified by the fact that you boil down the discussion to Submerge vs. Mind Harness.
Black plays REAL removal, it doesn't need any of these 2 cards and preserves it's ability to be aggro since it has got less problems to keep it's way clear.
Basically both decks do the same and it wasn't played quite frequently in the past. however, it has got very nice tools to beat controldecks and graveyard-based strategies which are uprising.

[strife2]

A trick that permit me to win with Choke or Back to Basics on table (don't remember) : He was at 6, Lightning Bolt, Daze on it returning Volcanic Island, Put the Volcanic in game again, second Bolt GG.
Daze can still be usefull in late game. ^^

[GUnit]

My comments that you quoted may have been a bit reductive, but I think only a bit.
The two decks are quite different and the participants in the argument were arguing from the perspectives that accompany those decks, while predominantly focusing on Mind Harness vs. Submerge. I agree entirely that the black version requires neither.

I understand that the black deck still plays all of the "tempo elements" of the red deck, but at the same time I also understand that the tempo gameplan of the red deck is stronger. This is because the cards in the red deck have better synergy with the tempo gameplan than the black cards. The black cards are all good, but they signify a change in focus and priorities on behalf of the pilot. While they do make your long game a bit stronger (especially if your bob actually survives), they reduce (though don't eliminate) the amount of opportunity you have to avoid a long game altogether via tempo plays. From my experiences with the red deck (as you mentioned) it does a fine enough job of assuming the control role when it is required, while it is better suited to switch gears at the appropriate time and close out the game during the provided window of opportunity. That being said, I would never go as far as to say that the red deck is strictly better than the black deck. In fact, I think it's pretty clear that it's not. As far as tempo is concerned, however, I see red as the clear choice, as it is more focused and has more synergy with that particular game plan.

[Adan]

I understand that the black deck still plays all of the "tempo elements" of the red deck, but at the same time I also understand that the tempo gameplan of the red deck is stronger. This is because the cards in the red deck have better synergy with the tempo gameplan than the black cards.

How do you define tempo? As I mentioned, the speedadvantage is generated via the huge amount of 1for1 trades. And in view of that, both variants are definitely on par, except that the red variant has got 2 more spells than the black variants, however, EE can generate a ridicolous CA against Zoo.


The black cards are all good, but they signify a change in focus and priorities on behalf of the pilot. While they do make your long game a bit stronger (especially if your bob actually survives), they reduce (though don't eliminate) the amount of opportunity you have to avoid a long game altogether via tempo plays.

This is not true, if you stick a Dark Confidant early, the game won't last long because you will basically have way more resources and at the same time you are able to keep your opponent low on resources. There's no way the red variant can generate such a gradient.


From my experiences with the red deck (as you mentioned) it does a fine enough job of assuming the control role when it is required, while it is better suited to switch gears at the appropriate time and close out the game during the provided window of opportunity. That being said, I would never go as far as to say that the red deck is strictly better than the black deck. In fact, I think it's pretty clear that it's not. As far as tempo is concerned, however, I see red as the clear choice, as it is more focused and has more synergy with that particular game plan.

If you define "tempo" as "killing your opponent as fast as you can", then you might be right, but I guess our point of view differs here.

[Terminator1k]

Hi everyone.

The UGb threshold is quite an intersting proposition to play. My only guess is if it will have a better position vs the mirror you're going to face on Canadian all day long.

Adan, could you please provide a sample list? (or link to it)

I'll guess it has some duress/tseize maindeck, and provided the coming of Combo-Winter on the legacy meta (thanks Dream Halls), it could make some real differences when bolts md are not enought to deal with combo.

[kabal]

if you stick a Dark Confidant early ...

I don't think anyone is disagreeing about the spear power of Confidant, just whether or not it makes sense in this (TT) type of deck.

Dark Confidant basically says, play me ASAP possible (as you have stated). If you are playing Confidant on turn two, you now can't Spell Snare/Stifle/Brainstorm. The heart of this this deck is the early game. Not to mention you have just added 4 permanents to your deck, making it that much harder for you to get Threshold.

[Cenarius]

I don't think anyone is disagreeing about the spear power of Confidant, just whether or not it makes sense in this (TT) type of deck.

Dark Confidant basically says, play me ASAP possible (as you have stated). If you are playing Confidant on turn two, you now can't Spell Snare/Stifle/Brainstorm. The heart of this this deck is the early game. Not to mention you have just added 4 permanents to your deck, making it that much harder for you to get Threshold.

First you disrupt, then you play dark confidant. It isn't that hard. It doesn't matter when you play Dark Confidant. When it sticks, you'll win. If you have stifle/spell snare/brainstorm, just wait. Get your third land out and play it next turn.
You cán play Dark Confidant when you have 2 lands, only when you have Force (+ Daze) backup without Stifle/spell snare. During testing this occurred several times.
The heart of the deck remains early game. You only play 4 Dark Confidant. Just first disrupt and after play Dark Confidant to regain an hand. Pretty strong gameplan to be honest.

Not to mention you have just added 4 permanents to your deck, making it that much harder for you to get Threshold.

To cut the crap. This is nonsense. A "normal" Tempo Threshold build plays either 4 or 2 spells more than this list. Getting Threshold is no problem, or you're playing the deck wrong. When Dark Confidant sticks, he's the man of getting mass spells in your graveyard, making you less vulnerable to Relic.

I'm thinking about making a new thread for it. The people here seem to dislike talking about the "same" deck. This will take time, since I'll need to back it up with good (test) results. I'll need some people who can actually help me on that.

About the list. Look about 2 pages back. Adan plays with 2 Engineered Explosives instead of 2 Smother. I've found out that I'd prefer "better" removal than EE.

[Terminator1k]

Well...at the end I think that what you mean is playing a deck called "Eva Green", so if we're trying to merge the two strategies...what are the skeleton to go with and what are the cards that must go out? Why would you not use the discard pakage that Black gives MD?

[GUnit]

Cenarius, the following is my opinion, on a theoretical basis, of why I don't like Dark Confidant in a tempo deck. You may disagree, but I feel that at this point it is a matter of playstyle and preference more than a matter of fact.

Dark Confidant, amazing as he is, is a gamble. This deck relies on a critical mass of disruption (backed by search spells that find you disruption right now), and if you miss a beat your entire gameplan can come crumbling down. The value of each stifle, daze, wasteland and spell snare increases as you pile them on top of each other, as they gain you incremental advantage over your opponent, which you want to harness to end the game when you're assuming the tempo role. If you miss a beat, though, you run the risk of each subsequent piece of disruption drawn being less valuable, and herein lies my issue with Bob. In order to play Bob you need to take a time-out from your tempo gameplan and invest 1 card and 2 mana to gain no benefit for a full turn, and even then you don't really gain CA for two turns, as the first draw replaces bob (I realize his 2/1 body is relevant sometimes, so this isn't strictly true). I'm not a gambling man. I like my decks to be consistent as possible. So, while Bob provides the potential to steal a game if he hangs around long enough, if the game last long enough and if your opponent isn't able to capitalize on the window of opportunity you provide him by not playing another piece of disruption instead, I would rather err on the side of caution and consistency and stick to the critical miss game plan, maximizing the synergy of those slots with the tempo strategy.

[Cenarius]

Well...at the end I think that what you mean is playing a deck called "Eva Green", so if we're trying to merge the two strategies...what are the skeleton to go with and what are the cards that must go out? Why would you not use the discard pakage that Black gives MD?

Eva Green doesn't play Brainstorm. So, it's ...
I don't like discard cards in this deck and I would not recommend it. The list I presented will be the list I'll test. I think the list is in fact pretty solid.

@GUnit

The UGb list, I presented, plays EXACT the same disruption package.

4 stifle
4 spell snare
4 wasteland
4 daze
4 Force of Will

I only replaced the burn with the black removal and Dark Confidant's. That's all. Adan said this aswell. Why are you so stubborn to not see this?

Another thing:

"When you play Dark Confidant you can't put pressure on them."
Is basically what you said, correct?

Why do you need to play Dark Confidant (always) when you have only 2 lands? You can wait, or? Dó you play Tarmogoyf against any random deck at turn 2? No, you don't. You first try to disrupt them. If you can't, you brainstorm/ponder into disruption. So after you disrupted your opponent you'll start playing creatures, not the other way arround.

So stop giving me that argument.

If you're confidant enough that you cán counter anything that might come, you can play Dark Confidant at turn 2. This is only possible when you know, what you're up against.
There comes a point where you've disrupted your opponent enough and need to start playing creatures etc. Your deck isn't some sort of endless disruption pool. At turn 5/6 (your opponent will be on 2/3/4 lands, you'll be on 3 lands (in general)) and you'll start thinking about actually winning the game. Playing Dark Confidant at that point will either mean the following:

1. Clear the path for your Tarmogoyf (your opponent plays StP, SS or anything else)
2. Stays on the table for 1 turn, getting +1 card.
3. Stays on the table for more than 2 turns, insane.

So in conclusion:

-The deck still has the same disruption package.
-You don't have to play Dark Confidant immediately when you have 2 lands. You can also wait till you'll have 3 lands, right? The same goes for Tarmogoyf.
-Dark Confidant is broken in this deck, test it. If you don't, this discussion will go on and on. That's not what I intend to do, to be honest.

[GUnit]

I've already pre-emptively acknowledged every single counter-argument you provided in your post. I'm not going to provide quotes from my responses, as you can find them yourself in the last two pages. I clearly stated that the disruption package is the same in both decks, but the point which you continually ignore is that of synergy. Again, review my posts and you will see that I have addressed your concerns.

I have played Ugb Thresh, Ugw Thresh, Ugbw Thresh, and Ugr Thresh. Threshold is, almost exclusively, the deck I have been playing in Legacy for over 5 years. I did play Landstill at a tournament or two, but that's water under the bridge. I know how good Dark Confidant is and I acknowledged it. In fact, it's my favourite creature in magic.

If you'd like to continue this argument in private, after reviewing and digesting my previous responses, feel free to send me a PM. I think that, at this point, no new information is being provided and it's not worthwhile to subject the users of this thread to uneccessary back-and-forth.



On an unrelated note, I still believe the most useful topic of discussion is that of Tempo Threshold's sideboard, due to the relatively limited amount of change that occurs from maindeck to maindeck. It would be nice to see some more discussion of actual tournament results as well.

[kabal]

-You don't have to play Dark Confidant immediately when you have 2 lands. You can also wait till you'll have 3 lands, right?

Wait, what? TT essential runs 14 lands. I wouldn't want to count on being at 3 lands. Not to mention, the deck "can" win with just 1 land.

You swapping Bolt for Smoother and Fire/Ice for Confidant. You have to have 2 lands just to remove a threat and you have less removal now. While this trade could work against certain decks, but that is the beauty of Canadian Thresh. It goes +50% against most relevant decks.

[Purgatory]

On an unrelated note, I still believe the most useful topic of discussion is that of Tempo Threshold's sideboard, due to the relatively limited amount of change that occurs from maindeck to maindeck. It would be nice to see some more discussion of actual tournament results as well.

On that note, here's what I'm bringing to a local tournament this Saturday:

4 Spell Pierce
4 Submerge
3 Pyroblast
1 Pyroclasm
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Tormod's Crypt

I'm not sure what to expect, I hear the city has a well-established suite of combo decks in the metagame, so I expect both Pierce and Blast to be good. Not sure if the combo decks include Ichorid or only blue-based storm decks.

I run Clique/River in the flex slots, I would run 2x Clique, but I only have one and I don't have time to get another one before the tournament.

[gamegeek2]

4 Pierce, 4 Submerge, and 3+ Red Blasts seems to be a given from what I've seen.

I'm not a fan of Pyroclasm, it doesn't do anything against Zoo and doesn't do a whole lot against merfolk, because they'll often have multiple Lords out; Red Blast (which can be run over Pyroclasm) is about as good against 'Folk and better in a lot of matchups. It's fine at wiping out Zombie Hordes, but you're better off with graveyard hate for Dredge.

[GUnit]

I really like submerge, but lately I've been leaning toward cutting one, as in some matchups I only felt like sideboarding 3 anyway. 4 Spell pierce and some amount of REB is amazing. I can't decide what else is best, given an unknown metagame. Pyroclasm, EE and Tormod's Crypt are all strong contenders in my mind.

[Maagler]

4 Pierce, 4 Submerge, and 3+ Red Blasts seems to be a given from what I've seen.

I'm not a fan of Pyroclasm, it doesn't do anything against Zoo and doesn't do a whole lot against merfolk, because they'll often have multiple Lords out; Red Blast (which can be run over Pyroclasm) is about as good against 'Folk and better in a lot of matchups. It's fine at wiping out Zombie Hordes, but you're better off with graveyard hate for Dredge.

I like pyroclasm a lot, I thing it really seals the deal vs. goblins too.

[johanessen]

As I posted the page before, that is which I think the best sideboard:

4 Submerge
4 Spell Pierce
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm

Then you can go +1 Crypt if you expect Ichorids/Loams, +1 Pyroblast if you expect Merfolks/Combo/Blue control or +1 EE if you expect lots of zoo/goblins/stacks. But apart from that, the other cards are mandatory. With the addition of Spell Pierce I found Krosan Grip totally innecesary as Goobafish stated one month ago, but if you expect a meta plenty of counterbalance or dreadstills you could run one too.

[Maagler]

As I posted the page before, that is which I think the best sideboard:

4 Submerge
4 Spell Pierce
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm

Then you can go +1 Crypt if you expect Ichorids/Loams, +1 Pyroblast if you expect Merfolks/Combo/Blue control or +1 EE if you expect lots of zoo/goblins/stacks. But apart from that, the other cards are mandatory. With the addition of Spell Pierce I found Krosan Grip totally innecesary as Goobafish stated one month ago, but if you expect a meta plenty of counterbalance or dreadstills you could run one too.

I haven't tested EE very much, but I am skeptical to its power against goblins. the best I imagine it could do is a turn 1 answer to lackey on the play, of which you already have many answers for.

[johanessen]

Deals with Vial , our worst nightmare

[TrialByFire]

As I posted the page before, that is which I think the best sideboard:

4 Submerge
4 Spell Pierce
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm

I would make the Pierce/REB count 3/3 buts thats pretty good. As for the Dark Confidant argument, Cenarius I see what you are saying and agree with you, but putting that aside I would never play black because red is just my preference. You can't replace REB after board and you have to remember, if you are playing black a couple things:

-Threshold comes a lot slower. Black removal needs targets and Bob replaces spells in the red deck
- Against decks with few/no creatures you have 8 dead cards

[Volrath]

Gentleman,

I have something for you.

Dispel U
Instant
Common
Counter target instant spell
Card 26/145

Seems pretty good to me, but not better than spell pierce.

Your thoughts?

[jazzykat]

Gentleman,

I have something for you.

Dispel U
Instant
Common
Counter target instant spell
Card 26/145

Seems pretty good to me, but not better than spell pierce.

Your thoughts?

Very cool card, but I believe your assessment is correct. For 80-90% of the time and especially in the decks it is used in, spell pierce might as well say counter target non-creature spell.

[Atog]

I'm not a fan of Pyroclasm, it doesn't do anything against Zoo and doesn't do a whole lot against merfolk, because they'll often have multiple Lords out; Red Blast (which can be run over Pyroclasm) is about as good against 'Folk and better in a lot of matchups. It's fine at wiping out Zombie Hordes, but you're better off with graveyard hate for Dredge.

You don't have to side pyroclasm for zoo, just submerges and EE if you have it in sideboard. "Pyroclasm bad against merfolk", you have 8 burn spells + Red elemental blasts to handle their lords, and then pyroclasm comes really good. Against elves and goblins, they won't have counters to stop you burning and using submerge against elves to deal their lords and then sweep the board with pyroclasm.

Have you been problems when facing 43.lands? Or is 2-3 tormod's crypt enought hate for them? And people who play Vendillion Clique, have it been worth of two flexible slots?

[johanessen]

It`s worth in first games if you`re not sure what`s the opponent playing, it doesn`t happens so much obviously but anyway, or you don`t know what`s the opponent plan; helps against combo and dredged loams to take important pieces from their hands; flies, in fact is the only beater in TT that flies, and is immune to graveyard hate AND perish (or another green hate, see mind harness or others), that`s very important too. Also, can be played after extirpated tropical.

[Atog]

It`s worth in first games if you`re not sure what`s the opponent playing, it doesn`t happens so much obviously but anyway, or you don`t know what`s the opponent plan; helps against combo and dredged loams to take important pieces from their hands; flies, in fact is the only beater in TT that flies, and is immune to graveyard hate AND perish (or another green hate, see mind harness or others), that`s very important too. Also, can be played after extirpated tropical.

So you recommend to try it? When you side clique out or against what decks?

[Maggical]

I played this list yesterday, it really works great, I really liked it, any suggestions?

Maindeck:

4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Vendilion Clique

4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Spell Snare

3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Counterbalance

4x Thoughtseize
4x Smother

3x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea
1x Island
1x Swamp
3x Wasteland
4x Polluted Delta
3x Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:

3x Divert
3x Hydroblast
3x Krosan Grip
2x Extirpate
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Tomod's Crypt

[GUnit]

Maggical, I think you'd probably find more help for that particular decklist in a different thread, as what you have there is an entirely different archetype. The core of this deck's strategy is 4xStifle/4xWasteland, and you're playing zero and three copies of those cards, not to mention CB/Top.

I'm pretty sure this thread will be more useful to you: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13716.

Good luck with your deck.



To all, some food for thought:

It's game 1 and you lose the die roll. Your hand is Goose, Ponder, Trop, Fetch, Fire/Ice, Stifle, Force. Your opponent leads with Savannah, Wild Nacatl. What do you do?

[johanessen]

So you recommend to try it? When you side clique out or against what decks?

I side out against mirror, zoo, burn, goblins, aggroloam, ichorid since she shines against any kind of another control or combo in general, that goes from landstill, counter-top or parfait to reanimator, ad nauseam or dream halls and also it`s good against slow decks with bombs, see stacks, enchanterss, etc.

[C-Aleric]

It's game 1 and you lose the die roll. Your hand is Goose, Ponder, Trop, Fetch, Fire/Ice, Stifle, Force. Your opponent leads with Savannah, Wild Nacatl. What do you do?

Seems like there are 2 viable options in this hand against that opener. So, depending on how you enjoy playing, or what you're feeling at the time, your options are:

1) Fetch for Island if you run one, or a Dual, and ponder. If you don't have an island, I wouldn't make this play. I would simply opt for option 2, which is...

2) Play out the Trop, and try to bait the wasteland, or nail their fetch with stifle. Turn 2, play out ponder, observe, and then decide what to do from there.

[Mayk0l]

To all, some food for thought:
It's game 1 and you lose the die roll. Your hand is Goose, Ponder, Trop, Fetch, Fire/Ice, Stifle, Force. Your opponent leads with Savannah, Wild Nacatl. What do you do?


Looks like the typical hand where Brainstorm would be infinitely better than the Ponder you're holding.

Forcing Nacatl is a bad play here since there are worse things than Nacatl and you have numerous other plays.

I'm not all too familiar with the different Zoo lists, but my play would depend on a guess whether they are playing Wasteland or not.
If I'd assumed they didn't I'd drop Tropical and Ponder in hopes of finding Lightning Bolt, Wasteland or Tarmogoyf.
Wasteland is good against Zoo and, combined with the Stifle already in your hand, has potential to be back breaking.
Lightning Bolt burns their creature and fills your Graveyard for the Goose in your hand, it's a card I'd be happy to see.
Tarmogoyf is a good creature against Zoo because it's bigger than most of theirs. Also it's great with a FoW in hand.

If I'd assumed they did I'd play Tropical and pass. Play the fetch turn 2 with mana to Stifle and Ponder into aforementioned cards.

I'd hold on to the fetch because of potentially drawing Brainstorm on turn 2 or Pondering into it.

[johanessen]

To all, some food for thought:

It's game 1 and you lose the die roll. Your hand is Goose, Ponder, Trop, Fetch, Fire/Ice, Stifle, Force. Your opponent leads with Savannah, Wild Nacatl. What do you do?

Force the Nacatl pitching Stifle, Draw random card, Play Tropical followed by a Mongoose, pass the turn.

[Cenarius]

Force the Nacatl pitching Stifle, Draw random card, Play Tropical followed by a Mongoose, pass the turn.

Couldn't agree more. Nacatl is horrible. I have tested like 30 games or more against Zoo and Nacatl is their worst creature since it'll do atleast 6/9 damage. Especially with the Mongoose in your hand, not going to block like forever.
Turn 2 ponder into land, hopefully.

@ magiccal, looks like a fun list to play. I'm not sure about your Thoughtseize. Maybe you can try this:

-4 Thoughtseize
+1-2 Ghastly Demise
+2-3 Spell Pierce

and try to get 4 wasteland in the build.

@ kabal

The UGb list I presented can perfectly win with one land into play. My list can probably do it even better, although I only play 2 Ghastly Demise. Ghastly demise > Lightning bolt in nearly all situations except your opponent being at 3 life and having 2 creatures. Dark Confidant with 0 lands into play that sticks can even win me games.
However in nearly all situation you'll have more than 1 land into play.
I've found out that Reanimator is actually quite favorable when they put you on Red. Ghastly Demise FTW.

[gamegeek2]

Yeah, I'm not a fan of Thoughtseize in Black Thresh. You also need Mongoose, he's simply amazing. Also, builds with Counter/Top don't belong in this thread.

I won the small mock tourney by the way, with this maindeck:

4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

4 Dark Confidant
4 Mongoose
4 Goyf

4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FoW
4 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Smother
2 Maelstrom Pulse

My sideboard wasn't very good, except for 4 Ghastly Demise. If I played this again, I'd probably put Spell Pierce into the main. Pulse saved my ass against Landstill and Stax, but would probably get the shaft as well.

On the Nacatl, yeah I'd go with Forcing it, since you don't have a Lightning Bolt in hand. If you were on the play you could Fire it, but sadly that's not an option.

[Cenarius]

Yeah, I'm not a fan of Thoughtseize in Black Thresh. You also need Mongoose, he's simply amazing. Also, builds with Counter/Top don't belong in this thread.

I won the small mock tourney by the way, with this maindeck:

4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

4 Dark Confidant
4 Mongoose
4 Goyf

4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FoW
4 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Smother
2 Maelstrom Pulse

My sideboard wasn't very good, except for 4 Ghastly Demise. If I played this again, I'd probably put Spell Pierce into the main. Pulse saved my ass against Landstill and Stax, but would probably get the shaft as well.

On the Nacatl, yeah I'd go with Forcing it, since you don't have a Lightning Bolt in hand. If you were on the play you could Fire it, but sadly that's not an option.

You should test Ghastly demise over the Maelstrom Pulse's. They're pretty good.

[Purgatory]

To all, some food for thought:

It's game 1 and you lose the die roll. Your hand is Goose, Ponder, Trop, Fetch, Fire/Ice, Stifle, Force. Your opponent leads with Savannah, Wild Nacatl. What do you do?

Option one: Force the shit out of it, and I pitch Fire/Ice. Depending on what I draw, I'll probably only drop Tropical and then pass.

Option two: Let it resolve, drop Tropical, Stifle their fetch and then Fire the cat on turn two.

I'm actually not sure what would be best.

[Henrik]

@ BUG Thresh players (Cenarious, Adan & the bunch)

1)
Also I have been testing black splash more extensively since the printing of spell pierce. I've come to include it in the main deck in the spot of spell snare, since with 6 black removal, there's never ever any need to waste a counter on a Goyf. Well, if you'll win the next turn, but you see my point. I've talked to Tempo Bant players who reason the same way, with exalted effetcts and Swords, they can afford to play spell pierce main. It's pretty much a cath-all, since with Dark Confidant, it's even easier to disrupt the opp's manabase.

2)
Diversified removal can hardly ever be a bad thing. I play 2 smother, 2 Ghastly Demise, and 2 Putrefy.

3)
Sideboard options. The thing I miss the most is sideboard against merfolk and Ur Fae. It would be really nice with acces to a sweeper, but the best I have come up with is Infest, and sometimes the double-black is hard to achieve. Do you have other suggestions for this purpose?
Also, 4 extirpate have been golden for me since it's an all-purpose card which can come in against both combo and control. It also makes Loam matchups a laugh.

[gamegeek2]

Well, having more Ghastly demise in the sideboard is never a bad idea.

At any rate, I think playing Spell Pierce is correct, because this deck has little problem dealing with Goyf.

That maindeck is obviously not something I'd play again. I'd definitely cut Spell Snare. Pulse performed very nicely though, but I am a big fan of Ghastly Demise as well.

[kabal]

Assuming the below sideboard and the standard CT build, what would you bring in and take out against the following :

- Rw Goblins w/ StP
- Combo Elves

Sideboard
========
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Spell Pierce
4 Submerge
2 Tormod's Crypt

[Atog]

Assuming the below sideboard and the standard CT build, what would you bring in and take out against the following :

- Rw Goblins w/ StP
- Combo Elves

Sideboard
========
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Spell Pierce
4 Submerge
2 Tormod's Crypt

Against rw goblins

-1x ponder/daze
-1x daze

+2x pyroclasm

Depending are you on draw of play. If on play, i would keep dazes in and side out maybe -1x flex slots, depending what you have there? If you have 2x bounces i would side them out for pyroclasm.

Elves:

If they don't run fetches and sylvan messangers, i would go this way:

-4x stifle
-2x flex slots (if these are bounce)

+2x pyroclasm
+4x submerge

[kabal]

Against rw goblins

-1x ponder/daze
-1x daze

+2x pyroclasm


That is interesting. You are leaving in all the Spell Snares? If they are playing StP, something tells me that they don't have too many spells in the 2CC



Elves:

If they don't run fetches and sylvan messangers, i would go this way:

-4x stifle
-2x flex slots (if these are bounce)

+2x pyroclasm
+4x submerge

What about Wasteland, do you really need a playset still against combo Elves if you assumed they weren't running anything but Forest? Actually most combo elves decks do run fetches for "red". Not to mention, what if they bring in Relic and/or Crypt? Onto of that, they typically play the following cards which you can stifle their trigger ability.

Elvish Visionary
Regal Force
Quirion Ranger
Wirewood Symbiote
Glimpse of Nature
Grapeshot

[Atog]

That is interesting. You are leaving in all the Spell Snares? If they are playing StP, something tells me that they don't have too many spells in the 2CC



What about Wasteland, do you really need a playset still against combo Elves if you assumed they weren't running anything but Forest? Actually most combo elves decks do run fetches for "red". Not to mention, what if they bring in Relic and/or Crypt? Onto of that, they typically play the following cards which you can stifle their trigger ability.

Elvish Visionary
Regal Force
Quirion Ranger
Wirewood Symbiote
Glimpse of Nature
Grapeshot

You maybe be right about goblins matchup, haven't ever played against r-w version so don't know list they are playing. I think they could bring Absolute laws in against us, and that's another target for spell snare. But i guess you can side them out if you feel that way.

You said there is targets for stifle there you are right. So submerges could be better against "tradional" list what plays natural order, +10x lords etc. But why you are even asking if you have plans already what you are going to side...?

I would want your opinion what you side in for mirror with that sb? You could side in too many cards (Rebs, submerge, spell pierce, pyroblast) there is 10 cards. Do you just side out burns and flex slots for all of that or what?

[j-flo]

This is a little off of the subject, but has anybody tested Chain Lightning in the place of Fire/Ice in Canadian Thresh? It seems like it can kill a whole bunch more of the problematic creatures that are commonly seen in legacy. The guys above are talking about how Fire can't kill a Nacatl versus Zoo, so maybe Chain Lightning might be a better choice. I know it has a drawback of being a sorcery, but Chain Lightning and Lightning Bolt make it so all of your burn spells deal 3 damage. Sounds pretty good to me. Also Chain Lightning can't be pitched to a Force, but who cares when there are 26 other blue spells in a traditional Canadian Thresh deck. What do you guys think?

[Gibsonmac]

the Ice portion of the card is far to useful, to cut it becase of an extra point of damage, in fact, Ice is kinda the whole reason to play Fire//Ice... Fire is just a bonus. Also, this is TT... you can easily blow a land via waste/stifle so you can fire a 2/2 nacatl, considering Zoo is lucky to get down 3 land... kinda the reason behind them only being able to afford to play two 3cc drops.

[gamegeek2]

Both sides are useful, I find myself using Fire a lot. But Ice is also really good, too good to skip out on.

[aTn]

I won the small mock tourney by the way, with this maindeck:

4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

4 Dark Confidant
4 Mongoose
4 Goyf

4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FoW
4 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Smother
2 Maelstrom Pulse

What's your out to Progenitus ? I suggest a split between Smother and Edicts if Progenitus is relevant in your meta (and also Ghastly Demise if Goblins is present). EDIT: Come to think of it, I suggest not playing this deck if any type of Vial-Aggro (Goblins, Merfolk) is present

[GUnit]

Ice is a 4 damage cantrip burn spell when you're stuck in a goyf-off, and the ability to split Fire's damage is relevant frequently enough.

[TrialByFire]

Ice is a 4 damage cantrip burn spell when you're stuck in a goyf-off, and the ability to split Fire's damage is relevant frequently enough.

And infinite other things. Fire/Ice is just to versatile to worry about the sorcery speed 1 extra damage.

[j-flo]

And infinite other things. Fire/Ice is just to versatile to worry about the sorcery speed 1 extra damage.

Very true, both are awesome cards and I totally agree. I just feel it never hurts to suggest things that could possibly make the deck better. If it came down to it I would run Fire/Ice, but I was just curious if anybody had tested with Chain Lightnings.

Anyways one other thing that I have noticed is that a lot of the Canadian Thresh players are using Spell Pierces in their boards. If it makes so many of Thresh's matchups easier, then why not just play Spell Pierce main boarded instead of Spell Snare? That would free up the board slots and could maybe improve the deck. Also since we run so few creatures, Pierce could protect them better than a Spell Snare can. I know Spell Pierce can't counter a Goyf, which could be a problem, but maybe it could make most of the matchups in the meta a bit more solid.

[atropos]

Anyways one other thing that I have noticed is that a lot of the Canadian Thresh players are using Spell Pierces in their boards. If it makes so many of Thresh's matchups easier, then why not just play Spell Pierce main boarded instead of Spell Snare? That would free up the board slots and could maybe improve the deck. Also since we run so few creatures, Pierce could protect them better than a Spell Snare can. I know Spell Pierce can't counter a Goyf, which could be a problem, but maybe it could make most of the matchups in the meta a bit more solid.

I believe I actually remember seeing several decks with a 2/2 split on deckcheck.net in the main occasionally when Zendikar first came out, but that doesn't really appear to be the case anymore. However, spell pierce has almost effectively replaced K-Grips in the board which is nice. Spell Pierce is cheaper and does way more for you.

Also, on a side note, the 50 best decks in Legacy article I believe sold us short. I always thought that Tempo Thresh had a fairly even matchup with countertop but evidently I'm mistaken. I suppose they may have been talking about the Natural Order/Progenitus lists. How can we sideboard effectively against that?

Here's the article (even though it's already in the Formats & Articles Discussion section):
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/18707_So_Many_Insane_Plays_Your_EmCompleteem_Guide_to_Legacy_The_50_Decks_of_Legacy.html

[TrialByFire]

I believe I actually remember seeing several decks with a 2/2 split on deckcheck.net in the main occasionally when Zendikar first came out, but that doesn't really appear to be the case anymore. However, spell pierce has almost effectively replaced K-Grips in the board which is nice. Spell Pierce is cheaper and does way more for you.

Also, on a side note, the 50 best decks in Legacy article I believe sold us short. I always thought that Tempo Thresh had a fairly even matchup with countertop but evidently I'm mistaken. I suppose they may have been talking about the Natural Order/Progenitus lists. How can we sideboard effectively against that?

Here's the article (even though it's already in the Formats & Articles Discussion section):
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/18707_So_Many_Insane_Plays_Your_EmCompleteem_Guide_to_Legacy_The_50_Decks_of_Legacy.html


They also used a shitty list with Lavamancers and a Basic forest

[Purgatory]

They also used a shitty list with Lavamancers and a Basic forest

Indeed I was wondering what was up with that.

In any case, I scrubbed out hard in the tournament, starting with a strong 0-2 (against Merfolk and some weird Red/Black deck that managed to draw one Terminate for every Tarmogoyf I played) but I stuck around and played because I couldn't get home before the others were done getting their asses handed to them, and I'm still pretty new to the deck and could use the experience).

I played 1-2 vs. Black/Red. Lost just barely after he managed to drop a Tombstalker that I couldn't answer in the top 4 cards of my library. Had nothing to board in, as he played al ot of creatures.

I played 1-2 vs. Merfolk after he drew three Wastelands and/or Stifles in all three games. The board was fine against it.

I played 1-2 vs. Loam, but that was when I had stopped caring about the results. Mulliganed to 3 in game two, and still didn't get a land, kept it and took him down to 5 before I lost. If I had drawn a third land for my Vendilion Clique I could've stolen his Loam and provided he couldn't draw another one in two turns, I would've won (his win-con there was Seismic Assult). The board was never a deal as I didn't draw any of the cards I sided in (2 Tormod's Crypt, 1 Engineered Explosives and 4 Submerge)

I played 2-0 vs. mono-blue painter. Blasts are awesome.

I played 2-1 vs. Dreadstill, after Submerge proved to me why it's better than Mind Harness in CT.

And then I finished with a solid 0-2 vs. Faeries, who were simply a lot more awesome than me in that game.

A dissappointing 2-4 and the best result in the car was my brother who managed a 13th place (out of about 50) with 4-2, piloting a really cool homebrew Survival. The rest of us sucked.

Oh well, there's another tournament at the same place on the 20th next month. Here's to a better result.

[spartan117]

I managed to arrive 6th in a local tourney (63 players) with Caplan's list.
I played against 2 probant decks, only one featuring Counterbalance. I won 2-1 against the first one and lost 0-2 against the second (the one with CB), but not due to CB. In the end he won the tournment. The best thing you could do in this MU is trying to stifle their fetch so they are not able to find basic lands. You really need to keep them short of mana and try to win the race. If they land an early sensei's or are able to reach some mana it's nearly finished, 'cause in the late game it's pretty impossible for use to win, especially G1.

Two days later I won 2-1 against another CB-probant because I left him with only 1 land all game along in G2 and G3. This fact proves that this strategy really pays against them.

What would you sideboard against probant with the following sideboard?

4 spell pierce
2 pyroblast
2 red elemental blast
4 submerge
1 krosan grip
1 EE
1 pyroclasm

[Purgatory]

Two days later I won 2-1 against another CB-probant because I left him with only 1 land all game along in G2 and G3. This fact proves that this strategy really pays against them.

Though the testing is obviously flawed (only one game), I do see your point. Very few decks can operate on only one land.

I would probably board in Blasts and Submerge against ProBant. If I'm going second in the following game, I'd board out Daze. If not, I think I'd board out Fire / Ice.

[Maveric78f]

SB out FoW + bounces + ponder (10 cards) on the play for 4 blasts, 2 pierces, 4 submerge)
SB out Daze + boucnes + ponder (10 cards) on the draw for 4 blasts, 1 pierce, 1 grip, 4 Submerge)

You might want to remove some bolts (inferior to F/I in this MU according to me) for more pierces.

[spartan117]

Though the testing is obviously flawed (only one game), I do see your point. Very few decks can operate on only one land.

I would probably board in Blasts and Submerge against ProBant. If I'm going second in the following game, I'd board out Daze. If not, I think I'd board out Fire / Ice.

Obviously I've won more than 2-3 games by playing this strategy and I'm sorry if I gave you this idea.
I mean, we haven't got many ways to play against Probant, and this seems the best one to me.

Talking about the sideboard, I changed the same cards you are suggesting. After testing I'm still not sure if fire//ice is superior to bolt in this MU, I think it needs more testing.
I'd also like to side in some spell pierce, but I can't find room. I'm not so convinced about sideboarding out forces...

[toni_a_salmi]

Hi folks, I just came to ask some advice and your opinion for some thing. I have played last 4 tournaments with
Tempo Thresh and made 3 times top8 which two was top4. I really like this deck and it works for me like a dream
but there are few very difficult matchups and one is agains Aggro Loam. I have lost 2 times agains it and once played
tie..I dunno what is really the best game strategy and what kind of cards should I take out and have in SB agains it.
Usually I dont play gravehate in SB at all cause there are just few dredge decks in our tournaments and Survival Bant
is not that common deck in Finland. Reanimator or 43 lander you will propably never face. GP Madrid is soon and
I think Survival Bant is quite common deck there and Ichorid is quite common deck in Europe too so should I play
crypts in SB or something and what are the best ways to beat Loam. Agains Ichorid you must just draw nuts and counter
draw spells, stifle Narcomoeba and beat fast but agains Loam is not that simple.
Agains aggro loam the problem is that you cant let chalice resolve so you need your snare for that. Stifles are great agains
Engineered Explosives, FoW hits tarmogoys, crushers & Terravore. If youre lucky maybe few of your bolts can kill something.
You have answers but it always feels like you just dont have enough answers or I just have wrong play strategy.

Another quite bad matchup is rising star Survival Band. There are horrible cards like War Monks, Plowshares kills your
tarmoes and there is lot of creatures while we have just few answers so what is your play strategy and SB strategy agains
Survival/Aggro Bant?

Toni Salmi

[Waikiki]

As a survival bant and thresh player. I actually find TT to be in the advantage. Just mana disrupt them. bolt/fire ice those hierarchs keep mana open for stifle and waste the lands. Survival is very mana hungry and will not function properly without.

[Savo]

As a survival bant and thresh player. I actually find TT to be in the advantage. Just mana disrupt them. bolt/fire ice those hierarchs keep mana open for stifle and waste the lands. Survival is very mana hungry and will not function properly without.

Of course. and post side submerge is great. thry're too slow. Countertop bant is definitely a worst matchup than survival bant in my opinion.

[toni_a_salmi]

As a survival bant and thresh player. I actually find TT to be in the advantage. Just mana disrupt them. bolt/fire ice those hierarchs keep mana open for stifle and waste the lands. Survival is very mana hungry and will not function properly without.

I thought so too but you wont get all your disruption stuff always and when you dont youre really in trouble. As survival
player too I know that you dont even need survival to win Threshold cause there's so many creature and if you can land
Rhox War Monk Thresh is in trouble (again) so this matchup is not quite favourable for TT I think. So the best way to win Bant
is disrupt them and try to keep them mana off. What about SB strategy...I usually side in blasts, submerges and Grip, take out
dazes and bolts. Is there any better SB strategy?

So what is the masterplan agains Aggro Loam? I found this is very bad matchup for TT players.

[Waikiki]

I played vs aggro loam during the chicago GP's when I was still playing TT. My plan was to slow them down as much as possible getting in with goyf and mongooses just in time. Stifling their land wasting the mana and spell snaring the loams. Gaining time is crucial. Game 2 submerges join the team.

worked for me then beating 2 skilled aggro loam player 2-0 and 2-1.

I also beaten GWb aggro loam but he just screwed himself keeping mana light hands.

[toni_a_salmi]

I played vs aggro loam during the chicago GP's when I was still playing TT. My plan was to slow them down as much as possible getting in with goyf and mongooses just in time. Stifling their land wasting the mana and spell snaring the loams. Gaining time is crucial. Game 2 submerges join the team.

worked for me then beating 2 skilled aggro loam player 2-0 and 2-1.

I also beaten GWb aggro loam but he just screwed himself keeping mana light hands.

You had same strategy than I had but maybe everything was about my luck, I dunno. There is still luck in this game :D
I made one mistake agains one loam player cause I didnt counter wish with snare but that was cause I expect he will
get Chainer's edict but he took maelstorm Pulse but I think that wasnt the reason to my lose.
I have to play practice more agains Loam ato get idea what is the best strategy.

[GUnit]

You definitely don't want play attrition with Loam. You need to tempo them to death or you'll get overwhelmed. Your gameplan is similar to that which you'd employ against a control deck with a dominant late game: drop a beater, disrupt for tempo rather than value and close with burn.

[KubaM]

What kind of meta you guys are expecting at GP Madrid?
The reason I'm asking is that I'm trying to figure out what sideboard will be appropriate. I'm playing standard Ugr build with Cliques in two open slots.
Matchups I'm most concern about are Merfolks, Zoo and obv Dredge. Although, I've noticed that new version of Dredge (non-LED) is not as bad matchup as it was with LED's. I don't really agree with non-Crypt sideboard's assuming that we don't stand a chance against Dredge so there is no point in 'wasting' slots for Crypts. They are great against many other decks such as Loam, 43 Lands, Reanimator.
I'm running following sideboard:
3x Pyroblast
3x Submerge
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x Krosan Grip
2x EE
2x Pyroclasm

For 3 matchups I mentioned my side plan is:
Dredge:
IN:
3x Pyroblast
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x EE
2x Pyroclasm
OUT:
4x Snare
4x Stifle
2x Bolt

Zoo:
IN:
3x Submerge
2x Pyroclasm
2x EE
OUT:
4x Stifle
2x Clique
1x Ponder

Merfolk:
IN:
3x Pyroblast
2x EE
OUT:
2x Fire/Ice
2x Snare
1x Stifle
I realize, that EE is not great against Merfolk, however in my opinion it's better sweep than Pyroclasm - his dudes are almost always at least x/3. As well I don't want to take Stifles out - they can counter Vial ability and/or counter Wasteland

I'll appreciate all your opinions and experiences based on tests.

[Whit3 Ghost]

Played the deck yesterday and hated the bounce slots. I'm starting to think that the deck needs at least two more threats and I have no idea what they should be. I hate Clique and Predator is also too slow for my taste. Sea Drake/Serendib also seem too vanilla. Is there anything that can be run in those slots that actually ups the deck's threat density?

[kabal]

For 3 matchups I mentioned my side plan is:
Dredge:
IN:
3x Pyroblast
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x EE
2x Pyroclasm
OUT:
4x Snare
4x Stifle
2x Bolt


Boarding out Stifle is a mistake. Being able to stop Narcomoeba for entering playing is pretty key for not allowing reanimation and zombie tokens. Even stopping Ichorid at least for a turn can be vital. Not to mention if they go for the win with a Flame-Kin Zealot, well you know.

[johanessen]

Boarding out Stifle is a mistake. Being able to stop Narcomoeba for entering playing is pretty key for not allowing reanimation and zombie tokens. Even stopping Ichorid at least for a turn can be vital. Not to mention if they go for the win with a Flame-Kin Zealot, well you know.

Coliseum anyone?

[Serbitar]

Played the deck yesterday and hated the bounce slots. I'm starting to think that the deck needs at least two more threats and I have no idea what they should be. I hate Clique and Predator is also too slow for my taste. Sea Drake/Serendib also seem too vanilla. Is there anything that can be run in those slots that actually ups the deck's threat density?

I saw someone suggest Wind Zendikon for TempoThresh... it looks kind of shitty, but can also double a Wasteland... dunno ?

[Maagler]

Ive been looking for something meaty to put in the flex slot. I have been looking around for a while but have not been able to find anything that fit in well, so I just settled for the evasive 3/1 that everyone plays. but a couple days ago while browsing through some team America deck lists, I found a few that ran terrovore. I have been trying him out and he is wicked good in some matches. I decided to drop the dual count to 6 and up the fetch count to 8 to support him better, but overall he seems pretty fantastic.

I realize that there are some downsides to playing him. Since he costs 2 green he is a little harder to cast than cliques, but the tradeoff is that you can get a dude that gets huge with trample.

Has anyone else tried Terrovore? What do people think about his inclusion in this deck?

[Dia_Bot]

I haven't been posting in this thread mainly becouse i play team america. But in my opinion (even though he is pretty awsome with trample) terravore has one big downside, he's vurnerable to the same thing both goyf and goose are in your deck is: graveyard hate.
When I played him in team america I had a hard time dealing with graveyard hate becouse all of a sudden all of my creatures got hit by the same cards.
Still it also depends on your sideboard, so test it out and if it works for you great.

[MULocke]

Ive been looking for something meaty to put in the flex slot. I have been looking around for a while but have not been able to find anything that fit in well, so I just settled for the evasive 3/1 that everyone plays. but a couple days ago while browsing through some team America deck lists, I found a few that ran terrovore. I have been trying him out and he is wicked good in some matches. I decided to drop the dual count to 6 and up the fetch count to 8 to support him better, but overall he seems pretty fantastic.

I realize that there are some downsides to playing him. Since he costs 2 green he is a little harder to cast than cliques, but the tradeoff is that you can get a dude that gets huge with trample.

Has anyone else tried Terrovore? What do people think about his inclusion in this deck?

Three mana at sorcery speed is a lot to ask for this deck. That's a full turn of not having stifle/waste/spell snare active, as well as no burn or cantrips that turn. It might be fine because Terravore's so big, but the problem is spending all of your mana and being vulnerable for a turn late in the game.

Note: Yes, I know Force and Daze exist and are free. If you've got a full turn to do whatever you want and still protect it, it doesn't really matter what you're doing. You're either going to win already or need to spend some time outside Magical Christmasland.

[Whit3 Ghost]

I think that in the situations that you want Terravore in (winning the game or putting an absurd amount of pressure on your opponent in a stalemate) his cost isn't that prohibitive. Sure, if you're facing a clock and some heavy mana denial and all you've got is 'Vore, you're probably boned, but it's not like bounce or Clique were going to get you there either.

It's a pity we don't have a creature like Rhox or Knight on color.

[Henrik]

If you want a creature that does not depend on the graveyard to complement the standard 8, consider Quirion Dryad. I've tried it and was only so-so impressed with it (it rocks in UGr CB/top however), but I don't mind since I'm happy with 1 clique, 1 bounce.

[Arsenal]

It's a pity we don't have a creature like Rhox or Knight on color.

I wish Burning Tree Shaman wasn't symettrical.

[rancOr_]

If you want extra creatures, Vendilion Clique is probably the best option. It has evasion,flash and pitches to FoW(not like thats an issue). But more important it is immune to stuff like relic of progenitus. I've been very pleased with 2x clique mD.
Terravore is just another gy dependant creature,and cost GG which can be hard to cast ..

[Wargoos]

Countryside Crusher would be an option besides Terravore, which isn't a high choice in my opinion because he is, like the mungo, very vulnerable to graveyard hate.
CC on the other hand converts your landdraws into power ups and business and will also usually outgrow the goyf.
The downside is of course that he has no evasion and costs 3 at sorcery speed.
I haven't tested that thing but maybe that guy is a possible fit.

[MULocke]

Countryside Crusher would be an option besides Terravore, which isn't a high choice in my opinion because he is, like the mungo, very vulnerable to graveyard hate.
CC on the other hand converts your landdraws into power ups and business and will also usually outgrow the goyf.
The downside is of course that he has no evasion and costs 3 at sorcery speed.
I haven't tested that thing but maybe that guy is a possible fit.

You play 18 lands. He won't end up more than a 3/3 or 4/4 until a few turns around the road, and saving sosmething like a fetch for him means that you have 4 lands (except in the case of wasteland). Not too big, and no relevant abilities besides potentially getting bigger. Lorescale Coatl seems like a better version (easier to cast, too) but is still a 3 mana sorcery.

[Dia_Bot]

If you want an extra creature beside goose/goyf I think there are only 2 choices available: vendilion clique and to lesser extend grim lavamancer. the thing is, you really dont want cc 3 creatures at sorcery speed becouse you pretty much always want mana to play (or bluff) stifle/counters or bolt.

[BigDCool79]

I posted this list in the dreadstill form without really realizing that this was most likely the better place for it. I have played dreadstill for a while but have had my eye on Tempo Thresh as well, and was trying to combine the 2 decks into a hybrid. I’m not sure if this is one of those things that looks better on paper than in actual practice. I feel that Dread nought adds a significant threat density to the deck. However, since I have never played Tempo Thresh I don't know if this will disrupt the flow of the deck.

3 Dread Noughts
3 Tarmogoyfs
4 Nimble Mongoose
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Spell snare/pierce
4 Lightning bolts
3 Fire/ice
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Trickbind

6 Fetchlands
4 Tropicals
4 Volcanics
4 Wastlands


I’m not sure on a side but off the top of my head:

2 Pyroclasm
3 REB
3 Tormod's Crypts
3 Submerge
2 Krosan Grip
2 Engineered Explosives

[MULocke]

I tested dreadnought for a bit, but wasn't too impressed. Two problems I have with it:

1.) While it seems sweet because stifles are already in the deck, dreadnought is generally better in a deck that really protect it (usually counterbalance). Turning swords into a two for one is a good way to lose a game, especially when only four cards in the deck can counter swords/path. The "dies to removal argument" usually isn't too good, but here you lose more than one card to theirs making the trade much worse for you rather than even like with goyfs.

2.) It's a dead card without a stifle. Yes, it gives goyf a little bonus and no, that doesn't count. This list has no real card advantage outside of casting Fire on two x/1s or turning Goyf into the Abyss (aka you're winning already). So, having dead maindeck cards in your hand hurts a lot. You can't power through it with card draw, only cantrip into a stifle to try to cast it (which leads directly to problem one). Yes, brainstorm exists. However, being able to get rid of a card is not really a benefit, as you're still only breaking even by putting him back.

Dreadnought might win you a few games, but the opportunity cost of cutting always live cards like ponder and fire/ice is too great. Tarmogoyf is already the biggest guy on the block 9 times out of 10, and he doesn't require a two card investment that uses up stifles that would be better used on things like fetches, ringleaders, and EEs.

[TrialByFire]

I tested dreadnought for a bit, but wasn't too impressed. Two problems I have with it:

1.) While it seems sweet because stifles are already in the deck, dreadnought is generally better in a deck that really protect it (usually counterbalance). Turning swords into a two for one is a good way to lose a game, especially when only four cards in the deck can counter swords/path. The "dies to removal argument" usually isn't too good, but here you lose more than one card to theirs making the trade much worse for you rather than even like with goyfs.

2.) It's a dead card without a stifle. Yes, it gives goyf a little bonus and no, that doesn't count. This list has no real card advantage outside of casting Fire on two x/1s or turning Goyf into the Abyss (aka you're winning already). So, having dead maindeck cards in your hand hurts a lot. You can't power through it with card draw, only cantrip into a stifle to try to cast it (which leads directly to problem one). Yes, brainstorm exists. However, being able to get rid of a card is not really a benefit, as you're still only breaking even by putting him back.

Dreadnought might win you a few games, but the opportunity cost of cutting always live cards like ponder and fire/ice is too great. Tarmogoyf is already the biggest guy on the block 9 times out of 10, and he doesn't require a two card investment that uses up stifles that would be better used on things like fetches, ringleaders, and EEs.

Agreed in full. Plus Dreadnought sucks. It dies to Shatter

[GUnit]

OK, the way I see it our dillemma is two-fold. We have these 3-mana bounce spells that can be clutch at times, but often get pitched to Force of Will early on in the game (fortunately they're blue!). We also have an issue of, on rare occasion, being somewhat threat light. How do we solve both of these problems simultaneously? The answer, of course, is to play a three mana blue bounce spell that is also a threat!

Without further ado, Ladies and Gentlemen, I present the latest, greatest ground-breaking technology for Canadian Threshold:

Man-o-War.

Feel free to PM me for questions, comments or autograph requests.

j/k j/k

[Shimster]

Without further ado, Ladies and Gentlemen, I present the latest, greatest ground-breaking technology for Canadian Threshold:

Man-o-War.
I'd play Pestermite before even considering the jellyfish. Though it doesn't bounce the creature, you should be capable of using the tempo advantage granted by the faerie's etb effect.

The bounce's main target aren't creatures (which you can handle perfectly already), but troublesome permanents like Humility, Moat or Solitary Confinement.

I don't say it's any better than Vendilion Clique or the stock bounce spells, but it is - at least - more synergetic than a c3 creature without Flash.

btw, I'm currently testing the following SB (considering Aggro Loam, Bant CB/Top, Merfolk, NoGoyf and Zoo as the D2Bs in my area):

SB: 4 Spell Pierce
SB: 4 Submerge
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Forest

[Tangle.Wire]

Yeah Man-o-War is more and more getting awesome i was running 2 of them in my Dreadstill and Countertop builds as Flametongue kavus failed. I think they are also playable in ***** lists but i have no idea what to cut for it as a clique is better.

[carlitobunz]

Umm... 2x jace the mind sculptor?

[Wargoos]

Umm... 2x jace the mind sculptor?

Uhm ... cc4?


I think we should apply a rule for further card suggestions:

1) Read the card you want to propose
2) XXXXXXX
3) Profit


€dit: HA! ninja'd kabal

[kabal]

Umm... 2x jace the mind sculptor?

No ... no ... just no. It is 4cc. Remember, this is a TEMPO deck, not pure control. If I want to play a permanent during my turn it better be mongoose or goyf.

[mattbrownsound]

How does the following sideboard sound for a meta consisting of CounterTop (all varieties), ANT, Zoo, and Merfolk?

x4 Submerge
x4 Spell Pierce
x3 Pyroblast
x2 Engineered Explosives
x2 Firespout

[Atog]

How does the following sideboard sound for a meta consisting of CounterTop (all varieties), ANT, Zoo, and Merfolk?

x4 Submerge
x4 Spell Pierce
x3 Pyroblast
x2 Engineered Explosives
x2 Firespout

I would switch firespouts to pyroclams, just because pyroclasm will not kill surely your threshed mongoose. Otherwise that seems good.

[MULocke]

Definitely switch to pyroclasm. You really can't afford to kill one of your own guys, as you don't have that many of them. Also, try something like Threads of Disloyalty or Mind Harness for the Zoo matchup. They tend to diversify their mana costs across the curve, so EE is only a blowout sometimes whereas stealing a Goyf or Knight is the swing you need to win the game.

[mattbrownsound]

Maybe I am wrong but it just seems to me that Firespout is better than Pyroclasm in the Zoo and Merfolk matchups. Against Zoo, Pyroclasm has a difficult time even handling their one drops. Against Merfolk, Pyroclasm only wipes the board if they have a single lord in play.

[MULocke]

Maybe I am wrong but it just seems to me that Firespout is better than Pyroclasm in the Zoo and Merfolk matchups. Against Zoo, Pyroclasm has a difficult time even handling their one drops. Against Merfolk, Pyroclasm only wipes the board if they have a single lord in play.

Pyroclasm isn't for the Zoo matchup. It's for tribal aggro and Ichorid. And if Merfolk already has two lords, just hit one with spot removal. You have bolt, Fire, and REB after board, so this shouldn't be a problem.

[GUnit]

Submerge is for the zoo matchup!

[MULocke]

Submerge is for the zoo matchup!

Submerge is for the Tarmogoyf matchup.

[Wargoos]

So I basically think this thread needs a little Q&A for general matters like card suggestions etc. because it tires me (and I think a lot of other CT players) to see and answer the same questions again and again.
This post just uses the general consensus and is therefore not meant to enflame any discussions about it's points.
You however should correct me if I am wrong about something.


1. Q: This deck does not play any basics! Doesn't it just lose to mooneffects?
A : Yes, it does. However, mooneffects are currently rarely played and if you guess the opponent could play a blood moon (you can remove magus of the moon via bolts) you have to keep counter for that card.

2. Q: So why don't we just play basics?!
A: This deck is three-colored, plays 4 non-colored mana sources (wastelands), which makes it basically running off of 14 colored mana sources. To be able to have the colored mana you play you shouldn't probably use basiclands. Also basics (i.e forest) are usually superbad when in opening hand as a sole colored mana source or topdecked.
If you have a heavy land-destructive meta however it is still possible to (but not advicable) run a basic island/forest md.

3. Q : This deck just plays 8 creatures - isn't that too low a number?!
A: For the gameplan as described in the opening post those 8 creatures are enough.
The deck is also very, very tight packed that it seems nearly impossible to cut something for additional creatures.
If you really feel the need for more than 8 creatures or other cards, the bounceslots (r.river and wipe away) are the first stop for eventual changes.

4. Q: I want to cut the bounceslot for X - is it viable?
A: Before you add something keep those basic principles in mind:
- This deck needs open mana to be able to counter any threat the opponent wants to play.
-> sorcery speed cards with high CC (>2) cannot be supported actively and shouldn't be played
-> This includes all non-flash creatures, as well as planeswalker etc.

- The following creatures have been tested as X: Burning-Tree Shaman, Countryside Crusher, Terravore, Sea Drake, Serendib Efreet, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Vendilion Clique, Pestermite etc.

Of those just the Vendilion Clique seemed to be viable enough meeting the requirements for high costed creatures (flash) and making just enough impact when played.
I think you got the idea.


5. Q: This deck plays stifle , why not playing phyrexian dreadnought - he seems pretty viable?
A: Borrowing the great explanation from Mulocke:

I tested dreadnought for a bit, but wasn't too impressed. Two problems I have with it:

1.) While it seems sweet because stifles are already in the deck, dreadnought is generally better in a deck that really protect it (usually counterbalance). Turning swords into a two for one is a good way to lose a game, especially when only four cards in the deck can counter swords/path. The "dies to removal argument" usually isn't too good, but here you lose more than one card to theirs making the trade much worse for you rather than even like with goyfs.

2.) It's a dead card without a stifle. Yes, it gives goyf a little bonus and no, that doesn't count. This list has no real card advantage outside of casting Fire on two x/1s or turning Goyf into the Abyss (aka you're winning already). So, having dead maindeck cards in your hand hurts a lot. You can't power through it with card draw, only cantrip into a stifle to try to cast it (which leads directly to problem one). Yes, brainstorm exists. However, being able to get rid of a card is not really a benefit, as you're still only breaking even by putting him back.

Dreadnought might win you a few games, but the opportunity cost of cutting always live cards like ponder and fire/ice is too great. Tarmogoyf is already the biggest guy on the block 9 times out of 10, and he doesn't require a two card investment that uses up stifles that would be better used on things like fetches, ringleaders, and EEs.




6. Q: Isn't Firespout better than Pyroclasm in the board?!
A: No it isn't because of the following:

- It costs 3 mana, which makes it come down 1 turn later and at sorcery speed.
The higher the casting cost of a sorcery spell the worse the card exponentialy to lower cc sorceries with same effect the card is.

- But firespout is so much better in the zoo matchup! Also merfolk creatures get pumped by their lords which takes them outta pyroclasm range!!!!

-> However, firespout will kill your geese, also why do you need a sweeper for the zoo mu? The way to winning against zoo is attacking the very fragile manabase so that they critters will stay low (1/1 nacatls aren't scary) and that you can trade with fire 1:2.
Merfolk also isn't an issue, keep in mind that most merfolks are x/1 and that they are just out of pyroclasm range when the opponent has 2 or more lords. Kill one lord and you can clear the board with clasm - cursecatcher&dazeproof.


7. Q: How do I sideboard against ...?!
A: There is no guide for perfectly correct sideboarding for this deck. Ask 10 different CT players and you will receive maybe 7 different answers. Playing and understanding this deck will increase your accuracy to board correctly. On a certain high level of experience playing this deck the answers of some players will probably coincide.
Also boards do usually vary highly according to metagames you play this deck in. Built your sideboard accordingly so that you feel comfortable being able to beat any deck of your meta with your sideboard configuration.
A current sample sideboard may look like this:

4 Spell Pierce
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Pyroclasm
2 Submerge
2 Tormod's Crypt

8.Q: Whaaaaat?! Your sideboard doesn't play krosan grip!
A: That's right and I don't really feel the need to play any because of the strong counterspell suite of 4 spell pierce and 4 REB in my sideboard.


more to follow when certain questions occur.

[o13g]

Excellent idea, EaD
I would like to add some points (in bold):


1. Q: This deck does not play any basics! Doesn't it just lose to moon effects?
A : Yes, it does. However, mooneffects are currently rarely played and if you guess the opponent could play a blood moon (you can remove magus of the moon via bolts) you have to keep counter for that card.
Moon/lands/heavy mana disruption decks are on average not expected to advance too far in bigger fields so weakening your manabase is not worth it

8.Q: Whaaaaat?! Your sideboard doesn't play krosan grip!
A: That's right and I don't really feel the need to play any because of the strong counterspell suite of 4 spell pierce and 4 REB in my sideboard.
And non-Clique versions play 2x bounce main that fill in for Grips when needed. Split second is rarely an issue. I would like to note that Clique versions do play grips and trygons at times (see Ben Weinburg's list)

[Arsenal]

Planning on going to a tournament at the end of the month. Completely unknown meta, although I suspect some Ichorid/combo presence. I want to bring this list:

4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendillion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Stifle
4 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice

Sideboard:

No idea. I'm assuming some combination of graveyard hate, REBs, etc.

Would you take a deck like this into an unknown meta? I know that Tempo Thresh (much like Dragon Stompy) thrives in a fully developed meta, lush with duals and fetches. More specifically, what would you choose to have in your sideboard and are the maindeck Cliques better than maindeck bounce in an unknown meta?

[Raptor]

Planning on going to a tournament at the end of the month. Completely unknown meta, although I suspect some Ichorid/combo presence. I want to bring this list:

4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendillion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Stifle
4 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice

Sideboard:

No idea. I'm assuming some combination of graveyard hate, REBs, etc.

Would you take a deck like this into an unknown meta? I know that Tempo Thresh (much like Dragon Stompy) thrives in a fully developed meta, lush with duals and fetches. More specifically, what would you choose to have in your sideboard and are the maindeck Cliques better than maindeck bounce in an unknown meta?

Why do you run Spell pierce over spell snare ? Almost all of the best legacy spells are 2cc.

In an unkown meta, I would definitly play 3 pyroclasm in side. If you expect dredge, play some trap, it's the best hate you can side for this particular deck, but even with trap, this match up is really difficult. I almost gave up this match up in order to put submerge in side, which you will probally side more frequently.
Also, 3-4 Spell pierce in side in necessary. And you can run 2Kgrip in side and pyroblast/EExplosives.

[Some Guy]

pierce is better than snare vs dredge/combo/unknown random jank.

[Wargoos]

pierce is better than snare vs dredge/combo/unknown random jank.

Worse against Tarmogoyf, for whom you also have no removal.
And now let's think if our matchup is so bad against combo/unknown random jank and dredge that spell snare gets worse than spell pierce.
I see Spell pierce as a compliment outta the sideboard to spell snare but not as a substitute.

[Some Guy]

Worse against Tarmogoyf, for whom you also have no removal.
And now let's think if our matchup is so bad against combo/unknown random jank and dredge that spell snare gets worse than spell pierce.
I see Spell pierce as a compliment outta the sideboard to spell snare but not as a substitute.

but he didnt say he expected a lot of tarmogoyf.

[Wargoos]

but he didnt say he expected a lot of tarmogoyf.

This is still Legacy, right?

[Some Guy]

you'd be surprised at some peoples idea of legacy.

[Wargoos]

you'd be surprised at some peoples idea of legacy.

I don't want to go in a discussion about the Legacy format in general right here.
If you are playing Legacy competetive in a tournament you will face tarmogoyf - it's the formats premium creature and
always an imminent danger.
You have to be able to get rid of it. Since you are not playing any card that can dispose of an opponents tarmogoyf you have to be able to counter him with more than forces or situative dazes.
And while I am well aware that there are still underdeveloped metas, legacy itself is currently on the surge (see the price jumps of legacy staples etc.).
As I already mentioned spell pierce is a complement card to spell snare.
Spell snare is rarely boarded out completely and helps in every matchup spell pierce is boarded in.
You can't just swap those for each other.
To mention that you await a tarmogoyf meta isn't really needed - as it isn't really needed to tell that I am going swimming in water because it's a logical conclusion based on peoples expirience and characteristics.
I now I am speaking already more about this matter than were needed but spell snare is considered one of the pillars of this deck.
It's just that good in this format because it hits important stuff in every matchup which gives it the edge over spell pierce that is not as versatile as spell snare.
If you are playing something over spell snare maindeck then your maindeck isn't at this decks optimal capabilities.
Spell Snare is an undisputable slot for me which makes me tell you that I won't get into any further discussions about cutting this card out of the maindeck.
Do not take it offensive.

[Some Guy]

If you are playing something over spell snare maindeck then your maindeck isn't at this decks optimal capabilities.

nothing should ever be set in stone. if my meta was filled with dredge , combo , and random jank. I would run pierce over snare in a heart beat. and I would consider it optimal as well.


Spell Snare is an undisputable slot for me which makes me tell you that I won't get into any further discussions about cutting this card out of the maindeck.

operative words are "Spell Snare is an undisputable slot for me". and that is all well and fine for you. however , if you played in area with little to no goyf , you can adapt or die.

[Wargoos]

operative words are "Spell Snare is an undisputable slot for me". and that is all well and fine for you. however , if you played in area with little to no goyf , you can adapt or die.

Ah what an educated answer.
At least you got to understand what I said.
Yes, this was about personal beliefs and I already mentioned the undeveloped meta issue.
That you did not get to understand that spell snare isn't just the anti-goyf button is too bad, but seems not changeable.
I guess hanging in for this thread makes little sense and I don't really get why I did try it again.

[Raptor]

nothing should ever be set in stone. if my meta was filled with dredge , combo , and random jank. I would run pierce over snare in a heart beat. and I would consider it optimal as well.



operative words are "Spell Snare is an undisputable slot for me". and that is all well and fine for you. however , if you played in area with little to no goyf , you can adapt or die.

If your meta were filled with random jank and dredge, you shouldn't be playing canadian ***** at all. In this kind of meta, you should go with merfolk.

By the way, versus combo you need the spell snare for burning wishes and infernal tutors, cabal ritual. So even if you run spell pierce, you should AT LEAST be able to side spell snare in.
Also, it's not worth to take the risk for some match up to cut spell snare. It's one of the best card of the deck and you are thinking of cutting it ? If you are in a underdevelopped meta, there will be a lot of deck with LOTS of creatures, so you better have the spell snare to counter some of them than have a spell pierce.

[Some Guy]

Yes, this was about personal beliefs and I already mentioned the undeveloped meta issue.
...
I guess hanging in for this thread makes little sense and I don't really get why I did try it again.

yes , I guess you should apply your own personal beliefs to someone elses situation. good call.
I guess melodramatic exiting statements really do help prove points. or not. thanks for trying though.


If your meta were filled with random jank and dredge, ... you should go with merfolk.

By the way, versus combo you need the spell snare for burning wishes and infernal tutors, cabal ritual.

If you are in a underdevelopped meta, there will be a lot of deck with LOTS of creatures, so you better have the spell snare to counter some of them than have a spell pierce.

well not everyone has the luxury of just walking up to a counter and going 'yes , one new merfolk deck please'. sometimes people actually have to play with cards they own and cannot just so easily switch.

and yes, pierce also works well against wishes , tutors , and cabal ritual. and yes , underdevloped metas can have lots of creatures , but what makes you think that they all cost exactly 2 mana.

[johanessen]

That is a competitive legacy forum, not a casual jank forum.

That being said, if he still want to play threshold, I think is still better and necessary to run spell snare over spell pierce in the maindeck. It deals with the most annoing cards:


-Tarmogoyf all day long
-Chalice @1
-Counterbalance

[Arsenal]

Hmm... I see your points. I'll move Snare back in the main. Although, is Pierce really SB material then? I suppose I bring it in the combo/control matchups, but couldn't I just run Negate? Although it costs 1 more mana, it's a hard counter from turn 2 until the end of the game. Pierce loses a lot of effectiveness, even with Stifle/Wasteland, if the control deck can slow-roll me and live until turn 7-8-9. Thoughts?

[johanessen]

Spell Pierce casting cost is important in combo and ichorid mu's.

[Arsenal]

Had a pretty tough time against Merfolk tonight. It seemed like Merfolk ALWAYS was able to out-tempo me by having just 1 more counter than I had. Also, Kira is a pain in the ass to fight through. Does Volcanic Fallout seem feasible to play out of the SB? I already have Pyroclasm in there, but if Merfolk already has a Cursecatcher out, I have to pay 3 mana anyway and Clasm isn't even guaranteed to resolve.

[spider900]

Hey guys, I need some help. I'm going to participate on a tourney the next week. I do not have any ideas what the meta looks like, and I have the option to play either Bant Survival or Canadian Thresh. Can some of those, who have more experience with the deck, give me some pros or cons why I should or should not pick up Canadian Thresh for this tourney? Also, what cards would you put in the SB? My list is the standart list with 1 V. Clique and 1 R.River in the bounce slots.

Thanks.

[rsaunder]

It depends on how developed your meta is. If it doesn't have fetches and nonbasics, thrash is super underpowered and you're better off going Bant.

[spider900]

I'm sorry, it's a bigger monthly tourney with around 70 participants each time. So I'd guess it's far developed and has a lot of Non-B. + Fetchies.

[atropos]

Played Canadian Thresh for the first time at a tournament last night and it was beautiful. I usually play Mono-U Merfolk at my scene but switched to Canadian Thresh out of boredom. It absolutely shined and I can't wait to go back next week and play some more. I remember some pages ago there was a debate about Lavamancer vs. Goose. I'd have to say that Goose was the MVP of the deck and I definitely wouldn't give him up for anything.

[Aleksandr]

Does Volcanic Fallout seem feasible to play out of the SB? I already have Pyroclasm in there, but if Merfolk already has a Cursecatcher out, I have to pay 3 mana anyway and Clasm isn't even guaranteed to resolve.

Fallout is not that good against Goblins / Ichorid... So, I just cannot tell... :-/

[Shimster]

Volcanic Fallout is inferior to Pyroclasm.

a) You need it against tribal decks, thus cc2 is superior to cc3 due to their mana denial.
b) You need it against Ichorid, thus cc2 is superior to cc3 due to tempo reasons. Nobody uses the combo kill any longer (at least postboard), so the instant speed is insignificant most of the time.

If the merfolk player trades 2 to 1 with your Pyroclasm, just crush him or her by abusing the card advantage.

[honestabe]

Has anyone tried cutting a fire/ice for a basic island?

I've been LOVING it so far.