[Deck] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

[Shimster]

If you're going to run a basic land, it would be a basic forest. It helps you casting threats while locked out (Moon or Wasteland), whereas the island just lets you cast irrelevant cards that net you more irrelevant cards due to the lack of a basic forest.

On the other hand, you really do not need any basic lands. This deck needs all of its colours between two or three lands, with three beeing a land heavy draw.

[ykpon]

I guess it had already been descussed in this thread, but I couldn't make the search engine gimme exactly what I needed, so sorry if anything. I wonder, what's the most optimal sb strategy against zoo?
My maindeck is standard besides the second River instead of Wipe Away and the zoo builds in my meta have some differences. Some of them run Knights and the others are more agressive ones including Steppe Lynxes and higher amounts of Sylvan Libraries and burn. Also, there is one slower build which runs Rangers of Eos and seems to be the toughest one for canadian.
Currently i side in 3-4 Submerges siding out something like Ponder, Fire/Ice and Mongoose both on the play and draw, but i'm not sure if it's correct, especially on the draw when Stifles are sometimes useless. Also, I think I'd like to add 1-2 sb cards more for this matchup. What should they be: the 4th Submerge, Explosives or anything else? Should i side Pyroclasms in if I already have them for other matches? And what should I side out? Thank you.

Also, I wonder if you have some working plan against UW Tempo deck as the match seems to be horrible at first blush.

[atropos]

Not sure if you guys happened to notice but the Tournament Reports thread Enric posted some Top 8 games of his most recent tournament with Next Level Thresh winning. The decklists aren't posted yet but it looks pretty interesting. He has the standard list plus Crucible, Mishra's Factory, the new Jace, Sower, and Firespout. The only thing he didn't appear to have was Nimble Mongoose. I know it's a very nontraditional take on the deck but it should be interesting to see what his exact decklist is like (should be posted sometime this week). It looked like a lot of fun to play.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17015-[Videos]-LCL3-March-Barcelona-%28La-Mquina-del-Temps%29-27-03-10&p=444241#post444241

[Volrath]

I saw it, but i don't know if i like it.

3 and 4 mana is alot for *****, and he plays CoW, Spout, Jace 2.0 and Sowers, seems harsh.

I reserve judgment till the decklists are posted.

[godryk]

That guy is the creator of the deck that ended 9th in GP Madrid (http://noticias.magicevolution.com/2010/03/11/report-grand-prix-madrid-2010-por-rafael-del-riego-top-9-1%C2%AA-parte/), I guess his list should be almost identical to that in the link. Also, some other friends of his have made good results with it in Madrid lately. This is a very solid deck, I've seen it in action, but this isn't Canadian Threshold. This is an evolution of those lists called Ugr Faeries that have been seen in Spain and Italy for some months.

[Volrath]

That guy is the creator of the deck that ended 9th in GP Madrid (http://noticias.magicevolution.com/2010/03/11/report-grand-prix-madrid-2010-por-rafael-del-riego-top-9-1%C2%AA-parte/), I guess his list should be almost identical to that in the link. Also, some other friends of his have made good results with it in Madrid lately. This is a very solid deck, I've seen it in action, but this isn't Canadian Threshold. This is an evolution of those lists called Ugr Faeries that have been seen in Spain and Italy for some months.

Can you give us a decklist in english Gor?, my Spanish isn' that great.

Si, gracias, torro and ''Cago entu leche'' is all i know :P

[atropos]

Next Level Threshold:

3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Island
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendillion Clique
2 Sower of Temptation

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Fire/Ice
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Ponder
2 Jace, Mind Sculptor
1 Crucible of Worlds

SB:
3 Firespout
3 Spell Pierce
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Glen-Elendra Archmage
2 Krosan Grip
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Tormod's Crypt

[miko]

That is not Threshold. It's more or less a variation of what was formally known as Fish in Vintage. 3 or 4 years ago you played a list pretty similar to that in vintage. U/R-Fish it was called. Just add 4 Goyfs and Tropicals and you have "Next-Level-Thresh".
Btw.: There is no more Threshold in this list...

It must read "Next Level Canadian" according to tournament videos.

[Volrath]

Miko, it is the same deck.

all the cards match out, but i aggree it is no longer *****.

[Tangle.Wire]

I also think its more or less the URG version of the rising faerie decks like UR and URB, i think even with the denial of wasteland/stifle the deck is not bad but will play different to the normal ******** as it loses much speed and imo the jace is a total fail here, i also thought of playing crucible/sowers also i fell in love with spellstutter sprites but i always come back to the mongoose as they really belong to the core of the deck.

I also played a lot with URG faeries but the deck always failed as it was to lame for an aggro win (even with goofies) and to slow for a control deck :/

[GUnit]

Next Level Threshold is a completely different deck. The centrepiece of Canadian Thresh is Nimble Mongoose, and its abscence in NLT is evidence of a strategic disparity between the two decks. NLT is a control deck that can pursue an aggressive gameplan with the correct sequence of draws. CT is a tempo deck that assumes a control role when it is necessary to do so. The two have an immense amount of commonality, in terms of card selection, but the way the cards are used in practice (F/I and Bolt in particular) certainly varies, on average, between the two decks.

[OurSerratedDust]

Sorry if this is an obvious question, but how does Canadian Thresh do in this particular meta? It seems at least to me like it is losing its popularity.

[Tangle.Wire]

So i played the second tournament with the basic UGR List, running 1 Vendillion and 1 Rushing River in the flexible slots on a 20 people tournament placed as 10th after 5 Games but i don't think that the Deck was bad i had following Matchups:

Game 1 - Mono Black Pox 0:2
Game 2 - Combo Elves 2:0
Game 3 - Mono Black control 2:0
Game 4 - Dredge 0:2
Game 5 Goblins 2:0

I had following Sideboard:

3 Tormod's crypt
4 Submerge
3 Spell pierce
2 Pyroblast
3 Pyroblast

So for the 2 loses i had it was really close to an auto-lose as i played Mono Black Pox by myself a long time and still beside tournaments i knew it was hard and my opponent also knew how to play it, same was true for the Dredge player :frown:

after the Goblins and Elves Matchups i feld pretty sure that Pyroclasm is definitly the better choice compared to Firespout as both decks where pretty fast so the difference of CC 2 (Pyroclasm) and CC 3 (Firespout) made a higher relevance as i thought when i read it in threads like this. Also i never had the feeling that the 2 damage of Pyroclasm was worse than 3 maybe it makes sense on the Merfolk games but even here its definitly possible to play around lords as a familiar player to this deck.

Since it was the 4th Tournament at this Meta i had Pox/Mono Black matchups nearly 8-10 times in the path and also failed with Dreadstill/Supreme blue against them i more and more feel like packing some stuff against black on my list as dredge seemed to be to rough even if i would have run 4-5 Sideboard cards against it as a good Dredge player knows how to play around crypt/relic and after some discussion with him after the game we made i am sure that ravenous trap is the only card that screws them if played on the right moment so i really think about using those slots for more winable matchups or just cut the crypts down on 2 for the loam matchup where i really liked them.

I also tested my list a lot of times against competive Reanimator lists but the results where same as on Dredge, facing a good opponent the crypts are nearly useless.

Is there actually a good option for UGR Thresh against black? I think black gets more and more popular on the current meta (not only the on i played) as they are pretty strong against those Tribal/Bant lists and the tournaments i played in the past where full of different Decks like BWG/Mono B or lists like UBR Faeries where Tombstalker really hurts us and since the lists don't run green anymore submerge was useless here.



ps: The one Rushing River i played instead of the 2nd Clique won me 2 games and would have been totally amasing if i would have em on some other games so i wouldn't cut the bounce at all.

[Piceli89]

Sorry if this is an obvious question, but how does Canadian Thresh do in this particular meta? It seems at least to me like it is losing its popularity.

I'd like to hear the answer from some expert of the archetype, too.

[Wargoos]

I'd like to hear the answer from some expert of the archetype, too.

Sorry I must've missed something.
Of what meta exactly are you talking about?

Canadian is basically always around even in matchups (of COURSE there are exeptions but this is roughly the right sketch) - heavily depending on the player's and opponents skill with their decks.

[Piceli89]

Sorry I must've missed something.
Of what meta exactly are you talking about?

Canadian is basically always around even in matchups (of COURSE there are exeptions but this is roughly the right sketch) - heavily depending on the player's and opponents skill with their decks.

I'm referring to something along the lines of Merfolk, ANT, pro Bant and Reanimator.
Merfolk should be slightly positive for CT postboard because all the REBs and PBlasts; but personally I don't find ANT to be that really easy because CT plays 20 counters and StifleWaste, and I'm saying this being a good ANT player. It's quite easy to setup a strong manabase and sculpt a hand with at least double chant as long as the pressure on your neck is given by a 1/1 and you're allowed to take like 12 turns to find the mana even in form of non-fetchlands, and the turn your opponent will play tarmogoyf, he will arguably tap out at least half of its manabase so that he won't be able to Spell Snare your Infernal Tutor and to Stifle your SDT-->Bomb or the Tendrils after chant-duress wars.

Against Pro Bant, Rhox War Monk can give serious problems if resolved, since it screws CT's gameplan. Natural Order is an autowin from there if it resolves early enough. Of course post board there are the Blasts, but still pro Bant can operate fetching out basics and relying on the hierarch, and as soon as you stop applying pressure on their mana and they land a SDT, the game is going to slowly grow more and more difficult for you, as they're able to find their bombs and you can't have answers for anything. In general, however, it seems to me that a resolved SDT is a very great threat to such an extremized tempo deck, threatening its chances to hold the grip on all the opponent's (key) plays as the game goes on and on. I'm not surprised seeing good players FOWing a turn1 SDT.

Well, about Reanimator, if it's well built, it can get rid of your hard counters and play around your Snare on their Exhume; a reanimated Iona naming red is pretty much GG, and Sphinx can cause serious troubles as well.

Maybe it's just me who's not competent enough with the deck, but lately after having played it for a sufficient number of games I've found, too, that this deck is losing something of its power from a deep comparison against the actual tiers, at least considering how it was a blast some time ago. Of course it can play around even in the majority of the matchups, but sometimes you also happen to face random 42 creatures.dec in the tourneys or MonoBlackFantasy.dec, against which this deck sucks hard pretty much.

[Wargoos]

I'm referring to something along the lines of Merfolk, ANT, pro Bant and Reanimator.




I mostly agree with you here piceli.
Merfolk preboard can give you a headache.
Aether Vial and chained standstills are never nice, especially when you try to win the ressource race by countering the opponents creatures.
Vial is very bad news and a must counter.
However sneaking in some early mongoose is great and you can take the initiative on the board here.
Also drawing in one of your eight mainboard burn spells is also quite devastating for the merfolk player especially when you can trade 2 for 1 with them. A problem is when the opponent gets multiple wastelands and cuts you off of a color (most problem would be green) which can take you off charge and give the merfolk player a heavy advantage. Another problem is that stifle is nearly dead in this mu.
Postboard you should get the overhand by boarding in 6-8 hate cards. Usually you can await some blue blasts from the merfolk guy but that is basically it.
A matchup marginally in favor of the expirienced CT player.

Further I regard the combo matchup as slightly positive.
Stiflewaste is a house in this matchup especially when you are facing one of those (slower) SDT Ant lists.
Screwing over their fetches and duals paired with multiple removal and burn for postboard swarms is a heavy threat for any ANT player.
Postboard you will also have even more removal in the form of Spell Pierce and Red Blasts while the ANT player won't get anything of relevance.
(-> MU is more positive than the merfolkmatchup)

As for ProBant I think it is best to say that this matchup plays heavily like the old Ugw ***** lists with one difference.
ProBant has a lot more bombs.
The progenitus combo is hilarious and nearly unbeatable when once on the table and Countertop is an immanent threat you have to account for.
The key to beating this is (sadly - because not always manageable to do) to screw over their manabase and hope that you will have the counter for their keycards.
Getting submerge and Red Blasts postboards is a huge plus on our side which will make life a lot easier and give a slight advantage postboard but this MU stays very draw-and skill dependable.
I consider this MU as even.

Reanimator:
CT is one of the decks that can fight better against reanimator than other decks can do.
Usually having more than one counter and lots of cantrips is a good protection against duress hands of the opponent.
Basically a matchup that plays like the ANT matchup. Reanimator decks usually have a weak manabase of which the CT player can prey on and
in which Daze is a huge factor.
The only tip for this mu is that you have to play it like the ANT matchup with a different kill.



€dit: Random Matchups
CT loses hard to janky (not in the negative meaning of the word) decks.
A monoB deck with innocent blood, hymns, stalkers, wastes , ports and other B goodies is very weird to play against.
Usually the ct countersuit is the best bet in this matchups while stiflewaste is a total waste of cardboard in here.
However, those decks won't come near the top8 niveau and if you can dodge them in the first rounds you can be sure that you
made it safe on the other site and will face the usual decks.

Also Poxesque decks (especially Brot's Trisomy21) have a VERY GOOD (nearly unwinnable) MU against us CT-player.

[Tangle.Wire]

I think one big reason of the "weakness" of Can T. is that its still a kind of indirect tier 1, every legacy player will expect this Deck and its also a common known how to beat it. Also i feel like a lot of basic strategies/cards from legacy got raped in the past since a lot of "kiddie" strategies where set up for Legacy for me Decks like Bant/Merfolk/NO Progenitus etc are strong no question but i remember when legacy got really popular it was more a mix of vintage and extended and by now i more and more feel like its getting something like a bursted standard/extended.

But like Piceli said the deck is not bad at all cause the main strength of Can T. is the flexibility to face every kind of deck, since i played it on tournaments twice, i run it since a year now and its still possible to win just by playing aggro against control or playing controlish against aggro. For the technical matchups like dredge, combo, reanimator etc imo its also not a auto-loss at all but it really depends on the draw+experience of your opponent.

Side Note: For the Next Level T. discussion i didn't try the UGR Faerie list that much (i count it as the same). i don't believe that keeping the mana denial plan and color combination for a deck that plays for the midgame is bad, as everyone here should agree that mid-lategame is the death for Can T.

I also noticed that there where a lot of Faerie lists which performed very good on the last weeks but other than the UBR list i don't believe that the Next Level T- can generate more preasure than the classic list does.

[Tangle.Wire]

Add on:

I played Canadian T. on a bigger tournament with around 60 people playing 6 rounds and went 2 - 3 - 1

Game 1 - 2:1 against ANT
Game 2 - 0:2 against ANT
Game 3 - 2:0 against Mono black Control
Game 4 - 1:1 No Goyf U/W
Game 5 - 0:2 Dragon Stompy
Game 6 - 1:2 Aggro Loam

Since i played the deck very intensiv the last time i depend on my bad luck on 2 matches (Loam+Dragon Stompy) for Dragon Stompy i wasn't able to stop a first turn Blood Moon in Game 1 and a Trinisphere + Golem on Game 2.

On the Loam matchup i feld like it was pretty fair but after keeping him on 2 basic lands i wasn't able to get rid off a 8/8 Countryside Crusher (it was post board and i had 1 Rushing River 3 Submerge and 2 Mind Harness but didn't draw any of those)

After all even if the results where not that good at all i think i din't lose any of the games by making mistakes and still think the Matchups on the current meta are pretty good for Canadian. I missed games against Countertop/Bant as i wouldn't like them at all but would like to get some experience against both Decks.

Also on both tournaments i played this month i feld like cutting a Spell Snare and maybe one Ponder cut give me the opportunity to pack some more stuff into the Mainboard but i am not sure what to pick up, i always have the problem that i can't completly disrupt the opponent and lose facing a single threat (even if i bounce it) by losing the tempo.

[GUnit]

I'm curious about why you would seek first to cut ponder or spell snare instead of utilizing one of the established flex slots. What are you running there currently?

It's pretty bold to claim that none of your 8 game losses involved play mistakes. I'm pretty well practiced with the deck and I find it very easy to make multiple mistakes per game. I would argue that the last line of your post is indicative of at least the occasional mistake.

[Tangle.Wire]

By playing different sideboards on both tournaments i played this maindeck both times:

4 Goofy
4 Mongoose
1 Clique

4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Fire/Ice
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Rushing River
4 Daze

4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
6 Fetches

I rarely played 2-3 times spell snares on both tournaments and since i boarded them out quiet often over daze as i had to play the tempo role all the time i have the feeling that 3 are enough if i keep one in the sideboard so i would board out dazes for spell pierces + 1 snare or pyroblasts + 1 snare. Also i really don't often use Ponder at all, i know that filtering out of the deck is important but in 90% of the games (also non tournament games counted) i keep mana open to counter/react on the opponents play i even use brainstorm more about turn 3 or later. Also i thought about cutting one fire/Ice but the card is so f****** flexible that i like it more for a cantrip than the 4th ponder.

I know people agree that at least for the 2 flexible slots the deck is stuck but good players know how to handle canadian t. they try to play around our dazes/stifles so i don't have the mana to cast ponders beside creatures/counters on the early game.

my first idea i wanna test out for now is seal of removal for the maindeck as i can use them against big creatures to stay agressiv beside tapping them out with ice. I used the Seal a long time in different UGR lists where i didn't want to splash white for swords so i gonna give it a try. Also its a nice play to drop it beside a tarmogoyf beeing able to save it from spot removal too.

the Maindeck i currently try looks like this:

4 Goofy
4 Mongoose

3 Spell Snare (-1)
3 Ponder (-1)
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Rushing River
3 Seal of Removal

Sideboard:

3 Spell pierce
1 Spell snare
2 pyroblast
4 submerge
2 Trygon Predator
3 Pyroclasm

I am not completly sure if i wanna use only 2 trygons for Artifact/Enchantment removal, but it seals with most of the decks where we need this kind fo hate as they can destroy more than a grip and ancient grudge/explosives etc don't hit both artifacts and enchantments.

I also cutted the clique over the rushing river as clique was more or less a 3/1 flying creature with flash when i used while rushing river won me 4 games on tournaments by now, also its the only way to deal with a non-creature threat for me thats why i wanna keep it. I am sure the first game i play without clique i will miss it and of course lose, but same will happen for the river :D




ps: I feld really pitty after shuffling my deck together after turn 2 on both Matches against dragon stompy, is there any way to beat it with canadian t. beside getting all their spells on turn 1-3 countered? Once they drop Blood Moon/Trinisphere i can't win at all.

[Azrael4]

I started playing this deck again in preparation for GP Madrid (I played it before only in a few tournaments in 2008, then I started switching decks over and over). In my testing (mostly in our weekly local Legacy Tournament with 25-35 Players (33-56 at the 4 GP Trials)) the Spell Snares were not very impressive, so I tried Spell Pierce instead, which made a lot of the matches easier. For example, most of the problematic spells in "Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors"-Decks are non-creature-spells like CotV, Trinisphere or Blood Moon. The ANT match up got better too, and even Enchantress wasn't such a problem preboard anymore. But sometimes, in particular against some heavy creature based decks like Zoo or Merfolk, drawing to many Pierce became a problem. So I decided to Split Spell Snare / Spell Pierce 3 / 3, so that its more unlikely to draw to many of one kind. With 8 Cantrips it is not a Problem to get them when needed, and for some of the worst Spells for the Deck, like CotV@1, Standstill and CB I had even more outs. The problem was, that I needed two more slots. I couldn't cut the 2 Vendilion Cliques, they are way to good. So the most unimpressive spell in the deck, Fire / Ice was reduced by two copies. I mean it's a good spell concerning its flexibility, but I think the card is just to fair for Legacy (And 2 mana is a lot for Canadian Thresh).
So here is what I played in Madrid:

Mainboard:
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Fire / Ice
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

# 60

Sideboard:
2 Trygon Predator
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Mind Harness
3 Submerge
4 Pyroblast

# 15

In the end I finished 12-5 (67th) with 2 Byes, with losses against UBr Fearies, NO Bant, ANT, Zoo and 1 Deck I can't remember (Maybe another Bant Deck). I'am very satisfied with the list, the only thing I'm not sure about is the 3 / 3 Split Mind Harness / Submerge in the Sideboard. Maybe 3 Mind Harness are to much and I'd also like to have a card against Tombstalker, that doesn't require my opponent to play with forests, maybe something like Curse of Chains or Narcolepsy...
For now I stopped playing the Deck to try a few different Decks, but thanks to Spell Pierce, I think it still has it's spot in the Metagame...

[GUnit]

@Tangle.Wire:

I'm guessing some of those games where you were not quite able to finish your opponent off through his threat might have ended sooner and in your favour if you had more aggressively utilized ponder to search for threats of your own. A common mistake with this deck is failing to realize when you need to assume an aggressive posture and seek out win conditions in favour of leaving mana free to control your opponent.

With regard to the Dragon Stompy matchup I have a few comments. While that deck will occasionally nut draw you, it will also mulligan into oblivion sometimes. You really do need to actively mulligan into early disruption (FoW, preferably) in order to avoid being blown out by big turn 1 and turn 2 plays. That being said, even in the case of a turn 1 blood moon, you still have an out: the deck has 20 points of burn in it. (No, I'm not joking.)

@Azrael4:

It's nice to hear you had success with maindeck pierces. I have been running some myself and I love them! How were the cliques in Madrid?

[Tangle.Wire]

Ok back from 2 days of testing the sideboard options i canceled the plan of playing seal of removal for quiet the same reason azrael played spell pierce in the maindeck. The seals definitly dealed good with creatures but i still had the same problem like before as i am still not able to handle threats at all, also on the last games i made yesterday i figured out that its true that we have to cancel the threats on turn 1-3 at all so spell pierce worked out here best (no news at all)

I also tinkered around with my sideboard and found another way to develop the deck postboard, here is what i came up with:

4 Goofy
4 Mongoose

4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Rushing River

18 Lands as usual

Sideboard:

Explanation:

First here is the list of cards i tested at all:

- Krosan Grip
- Ancient Grudge
- Hydroblast
- Seal of Removal
- Echoing Truth
- Rushing River (additional to the mainboard)
- Mind Harness
- Crucible of Worlds
- Pithing Needle
- Trygon Predator

As some will wonder about the graveyard hate i posted some posts before that i wanted to cut it out of the deck as i never won with them on the matchups and still have the feeling that for myself the better way will be to set up the sideboard against the other matchups.

Since i started with typical net-deck sideboards like 2-3 Krosan Grips, Hydro+Pyro blasts etc i always feld like the cards most of the time help only on a single matchup but since i play the deck all the time by now i love it for its flexibility.
After picking up all the cards a friend asked me if i ever tried to play a sideboard like nassif did on his baseruption but i totally disagreed as the deck doesn't use divining tops or confidants so i wouldn't draw the cards at all.

So more or less for the casual tests i came up with another idea and really had succes by playing following sideboard:

1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Pyroclasm
2 Pyroblast
4 Submerge

Like i said on the past tournament i often boarded out 1 ponder without having much trouble, so i had the idea to change 1 ponder for a mystical tutor post board as it can get any card i use on the sideboard, also i tried Chain of vapor, and wondered why it never has been listed on this deck, of course it sucks if we have a tarmogoyf and they bounce it by sacrificing a land, but since i often try to drop a mongoose first i can play around its draw-back, get a bouncer for cc1 and also won't get hurt by it even if i had tarmogoyf when the mana denial worked out cause they won't sacrifice their land at all. For the Grip and Grudge split i figured out that grip is needed for countertop games while the grudge is great against aggros with jitte, vials or decks with chalice/trinisphere etc. Also i love it as i can flashback it.

I played a lot of games yesterday but i still agree the list will need a bit more testing, but i am very supprised how good it worked by the beginning, i also think playing 3 spell pierce main will be awesome but i won't cut fire/ice like azrael did since i really needed them on a lot of games before.

[Azrael4]

The Cliques were amazing the entire weekend, and I would never run this Deck without them, except for maybe a heavy tribal and/or Zoo Meta. They steal games in so many different Situations (I won for example some Games against White Stax, where he has Magus, Trinisphere and CotV and the Clique went the entire way) and you have to mulligan much less if you don't have a creature in you starting hand, which is in my opinion one of the biggest problems the deck has. I tried the bounce too, but I was not very impressed. Every Problem solved by it, is often solved by Clique too (Like Moat or to many Ground Creatures, so that you can not attack for example) and stopping Spells like Ad Nauseam is a great plus...

[DragoFireheart]

Can anything be done to this deck beyond what has been done in the last 6 months or so? Every Thresh list seems the same: Geese, Goyf, Counter spells, Fire/Ice + Bolts, disruption package, cantrips and then either a couple bounce or the Cliques.

[Wargoos]

Can anything be done to this deck beyond what has been done in the last 6 months or so? Every Thresh list seems the same: Geese, Goyf, Counter spells, Fire/Ice + Bolts, disruption package, cantrips and then either a couple bounce or the Cliques.

This deck hasn't seen bigger changes since it's development some years ago.
Only changes are "I-cut-the-bounce-for-2-creatures-uhhhh".
Guess why? Cuz the maindeck is optimal as is to date.
Also if you would change a majority of stuff it wouldn't be TempoThresh anymore.

@ ranc0r: Canadian does not play like Next Level Threshold. It's a completely different deck.

[strife2]

@Tangle.Wire:

That being said, even in the case of a turn 1 blood moon, you still have an out: the deck has 20 points of burn in it. (No, I'm not joking.)


I already win a game with a Burn Plan : My opponent was playing Mono Black, he extirpated my Tropical then thanks to his Dark Confident and my Blasts, i managed to put 20 points.

I'm currently testing this list :

// Lands
4 [B] Volcanic Island
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
4 [BD] Lightning Bolt
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
3 [AP] Fire/Ice
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [M10] Ponder
2 [DS] Echoing Truth
2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NE] Submerge
SB: 2 [7E] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [OV] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 [MI] Mind Harness
SB: 1 [ZEN] Spell Pierce

Echoing Truth MD (and not Rushing River because I really love the Clique and the deck can't afford to play 4 3CCM) against Reanimator and because Bounces are always useful, a split 2 Snare/2 Pierce but I need more test to give an opinion.
About the Sideboard : Zoo becomes more and more played in my meta that's why I play 4 Submerge/2 Mind Harness, Pyroclasm because of Merfolks, Gob and Elves that are quite present in my meta, 3 REB-like and 3 Grave-Hate for Reanimator, Dredge.
What do you think about that ?

[atropos]

I went 4-1 and took 5th at a local 30 man tournament. I play the standard list with 2 Cliques in the bounce slots. I've been tinkering with the list and I decided to go

-1 Daze
-1 Fire//Ice
-1 Spell Snare

+3 Spell Pierce

I played Reanimator (2-1), 43 Lands with Mindslaver (1-2), ANT (2-0), Dark Depths Rock (2-1), and ANT (2-0). Had a blast playing with the deck and Spell Pierce absolutely shined all day (except against lands). I did at least manage to squeak out a win against Lands but holy hell it was difficult. Playing against that deck is like pulling teeth.

Here's my sideboard:

3 Krosan Grip
3 Submerge
2 Red blasts
2 Blue blasts
2 Pyroclasm
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Tormod's Crypt

I'm thinking of losing the blue blasts for 2 Price of Progress since there's 3 or 4 Lands decks running around my meta. Any thoughts?

[Wargoos]

I went 4-1 and took 5th at a local 30 man tournament. I play the standard list with 2 Cliques in the bounce slots. I've been tinkering with the list and I decided to go

-1 Daze
-1 Fire//Ice
-1 Spell Snare

+3 Spell Pierce

I played Reanimator (2-1), 43 Lands with Mindslaver (1-2), ANT (2-0), Dark Depths Rock (2-1), and ANT (2-0). Had a blast playing with the deck and Spell Pierce absolutely shined all day (except against lands). I did at least manage to squeak out a win against Lands but holy hell it was difficult. Playing against that deck is like pulling teeth.

Here's my sideboard:

3 Krosan Grip
3 Submerge
2 Red blasts
2 Blue blasts
2 Pyroclasm
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Tormod's Crypt

I'm thinking of losing the blue blasts for 2 Price of Progress since there's 3 or 4 Lands decks running around my meta. Any thoughts?

Gratz to the finish.
The md changes are definately interesting and I'm gonna test it as well.
Also the sideboard looks good and since you got some lands decks running around packing some pop's is reasonable too.
What I don't get are the krosan grips.
Sure they are awesome and all but don't you find it to be overkill to have 3sb grips when you already run spell pierces?
I would probably cut 2 grip and you would have the space for the pops without cutting blasts.
Also I would probably play just some red blasts since I don't really feel the need for blue ones.
1 K.Grip
3 Submerge
3 Red blasts
2 pyroclasm
1 EE
3 Crypt
2 Price of Progress
This is how I would probably run the sb in your meta.( reanimator, lands and ant)

[atropos]

Gratz to the finish.
The md changes are definately interesting and I'm gonna test it as well.
Also the sideboard looks good and since you got some lands decks running around packing some pop's is reasonable too.
What I don't get are the krosan grips.
Sure they are awesome and all but don't you find it to be overkill to have 3sb grips when you already run spell pierces?
I would probably cut 2 grip and you would have the space for the pops without cutting blasts.
Also I would probably play just some red blasts since I don't really feel the need for blue ones.
1 K.Grip
3 Submerge
3 Red blasts
2 pyroclasm
1 EE
3 Crypt
2 Price of Progress
This is how I would probably run the sb in your meta.( reanimator, lands and ant)

Good luck with your testing and let me know how it goes for you. I really enjoyed having the Spell Pierces main. I appreciate your sideboard suggestions and I'll take a look into that (along with actually getting some PoPs). I suppose you're right about the K-Grips however my meta's pretty diverse. In addition to combo and Lands we also have tribal aggro, zoo, countertop, along with some whacky stuff so that's why my SB is so diverse.

[strife2]

I went 4-1 and took 5th at a local 30 man tournament. I play the standard list with 2 Cliques in the bounce slots. I've been tinkering with the list and I decided to go

-1 Daze
-1 Fire//Ice
-1 Spell Snare

+3 Spell Pierce

I played Reanimator (2-1), 43 Lands with Mindslaver (1-2), ANT (2-0), Dark Depths Rock (2-1), and ANT (2-0). Had a blast playing with the deck and Spell Pierce absolutely shined all day (except against lands). I did at least manage to squeak out a win against Lands but holy hell it was difficult. Playing against that deck is like pulling teeth.

Here's my sideboard:

3 Krosan Grip
3 Submerge
2 Red blasts
2 Blue blasts
2 Pyroclasm
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Tormod's Crypt

I'm thinking of losing the blue blasts for 2 Price of Progress since there's 3 or 4 Lands decks running around my meta. Any thoughts?

Did the 4th Daze miss you ? Because it's a main card of the deck, you are supposed to play tempo and Daze is great in this role.

[GrooGrux]

Did the 4th Daze miss you ? Because it's a main card of the deck, you are supposed to play tempo and Daze is great in this role.

Spell Pierce is great in that role as well..... Maybe even more so in some Metas. Correct?

[atropos]

Did the 4th Daze miss you ? Because it's a main card of the deck, you are supposed to play tempo and Daze is great in this role.

I agree that Daze is awesome however I managed quite well with just 3. The Spell Pierces really helped out. I'm not saying that everyone should run my main list or anything like that, I'm just saying that it was helpful for me in my meta.

[Cavius The Great]

Needs moar Temporal Spring.

[mossivo1986]

Needs moar Temporal Spring.

The source needs more Cavius The Great! Posts like this are just pure internet gold!

[jrsthethird]

Can someone recommend a pretty standard list for both UG Thresh and Canadian Thresh? I'm picking up a set of Trops tomorrow so I might try out this deck and I need a place to start. I don't want to read through 65 pages of stuff.

[mchainmail]

Can someone recommend a pretty standard list for both UG Thresh and Canadian Thresh? I'm picking up a set of Trops tomorrow so I might try out this deck and I need a place to start. I don't want to read through 65 pages of stuff.


Canadian Thresh:
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire / Ice


List is 58 cards. Two additions are some combination of Vendillion Clique, Rushing River, Wipe Away.

Some lists cut 1 Volc Island for a basic.

I've experimented cutting a Ponder and Fire//Ice for 2 Rushing River (having 2 Rushing River and 2 V. Clique in the deck)

[jrsthethird]

Also, the primer mentions a black splash, is anyone having any success with that lately (ignoring the problem of obtaining Seas)?

General pros and cons to each build? I'm fearing that the primer is slightly out-of-date.

[lordofthepit]

Can someone recommend a pretty standard list for both UG Thresh and Canadian Thresh? I'm picking up a set of Trops tomorrow so I might try out this deck and I need a place to start. I don't want to read through 65 pages of stuff.

Well, you're in luck because this deck has evolved almost zero in the last 65 pages.

That list mchainmail posted is standard, and the two flex spots are as he mentioned. The only other possibility is substituting some or all of the Spell Snares for Spell Pierces. And I've seen some lists run only 3 Daze or 3 Fire Ice. But as far as I know, that's almost the extent of any common variation in the maindeck.

Edit: Plus whatever permutation of 6 blue fetchlands you feel like using.

[Shriekmaw]

Canadian Thresh:
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire / Ice


List is 58 cards. Two additions are some combination of Vendillion Clique, Rushing River, Wipe Away.

Some lists cut 1 Volc Island for a basic.

I've experimented cutting a Ponder and Fire//Ice for 2 Rushing River (having 2 Rushing River and 2 V. Clique in the deck)


I don't think the Vendilion Clique should even be an option at this point because it doesn't help you any if you have to deal with a permanent that I hit the table. I would go with the traditional 1/1 split of wipe away/rushing river.

You really don't have the option of playing with a basic land in this deck b/c you need to hit 3 colors and basics are just going to hurt you more than they will help.

This is an amazing deck with tournament results to back it up if its your style.

[jrsthethird]

Did a little testing yesterday. Don't have a board yet, but I went 2-1 against dredge, beat Zoo (Rushing River to bounce Goyf + Lavamancer when I'm at 2 and swing for the kill = clutch) and Goblins, and slaughtered a Standard deck (he scooped when I Stifled his Vengevine trigger...lol).

Also I don't have all the cards, missing 3 Volcs, 4 FOW, Stifle, Daze, Mongoose, 1 Wipe Away, but I like it so far. I'm running Spell Pierce since I have them instead of Snare, doesn't seem to make a big difference to me right now but my testing is minimal so who knows? It's fun so far.

A couple questions:

What does the board usually look like? Primer mentions running CounterTop, and I'd assume some amount of Grips or REBs or something, but I have no idea.

Also, a couple people have mentioned that it's terrible in the current meta. I have no information to support this or not, so what is the general consensus in this thread?

[Mono_Thematic]

Out of curiousity has Treasure Hunt been considered in a builid with Terravore and lots of fetchlands/cyclting-lands. Off the top of my head it'd look something like this:
4 tarmgoyf
4 terravore
3 trygon predator
4 nimble mongoose

4 force of will
4 treasure hunt
3 daze
3 spell pierce
4 brainstorm

4 tropical island
4 misty rainforest
4 tranquil thicket
4 lonely sandbar
4 polluted delta
4 wasteland
3 island
1 forest

Its alot of deck space to commit to the draw engine, but the benefits of building up the GY and card-selection would seem to go a long way.
Like I said, I'm mainly just curious if its been considered,
-Mono

[Adan]

Also, the primer mentions a black splash, is anyone having any success with that lately (ignoring the problem of obtaining Seas)?

Yes, although it was quite a time ago: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28393

The main advantage of this build is simple: Dark Confidant.

For some of you who might have played Red Tempo Thresh as much as I have, you might noticed that this deck can go out of gas in some cases. Also, a bad draw causes massive issues to time your spells correctly from then on.
I also sometimes hated the deck becaus eI was able to screw my opponent to oblivion but then draw 2 land in a row, giving the opponent the opportunity to topdeck himself back into the game and wrecking me with a Goyf or something.

Dark Confidant fixes that. Simply because he provides a huge amount of gas and functions as creature number 9-12 which can also apply some pressure.

But my sideboard sucks. i sleeved the deck up 5 minutes before the tournament because I didn't want to play Counterbalance-Thresh (and also to rebel against Clemens who didn't believe that UGb Tempo is pretty potent).

I'd play 3 GY hate (Crypt, Xtirpate), the 3rd Explosive, 3-4 Spell Pierces, 2 Krosan Grips, Blueblasts and something else.

UGb is also a bit more resilient against random shit, but I have never played Gayfolk or Zoo with it. Gayfolk should be okay if you can resolve DConfidant, but I have absolutely no idea about Zoo, Dark Confidant is a two-sided sword here, but he's actually good for you. On the other hand, his lifespan against Zoo is like... 2 seconds or something.

[AegeanC]

With those Diabolic Edicts, and early counters, it seems like It would be a pretty decent match-up against zoo, especially after sideboard.

[TrialByFire]

Out of curiousity has Treasure Hunt been considered in a builid with Terravore and lots of fetchlands/cyclting-lands. Off the top of my head it'd look something like this:
4 tarmgoyf
4 terravore
3 trygon predator
4 nimble mongoose

4 force of will
4 treasure hunt
3 daze
3 spell pierce
4 brainstorm

4 tropical island
4 misty rainforest
4 tranquil thicket
4 lonely sandbar
4 polluted delta
4 wasteland
3 island
1 forest

Its alot of deck space to commit to the draw engine, but the benefits of building up the GY and card-selection would seem to go a long way.
Like I said, I'm mainly just curious if its been considered,
-Mono

3 mana, sorcery speed, double green costing, vanilla creatures shalt not a tempo deck make. Plus it dies to Relic. And its already been dicussed and dismissed.

[Adan]

3 mana, sorcery speed, double green costing, vanilla creatures shalt not a tempo deck make. Plus it dies to Relic. And its already been dicussed and dismissed.

http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=New+Horizons&format=Legacy

Your argument is invalid.

[DragoFireheart]

http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=New+Horizons&format=Legacy

Your argument is invalid.

Why is land destruction tempo? Couldn't it be seen as another form of control?

[jrsthethird]

Why is land destruction tempo? Couldn't it be seen as another form of control?

New Horizons does have a slight tempo element, but it's more tempo-control than straight up tempo like this deck.

[chokin]

Why is land destruction tempo? Couldn't it be seen as another form of control?

The form of land destruction that Tempo Thresh packs can be done as early as turn 1. Plus you can develop a board position with very little mana while keeping them from developing their own mana base or board. Before they know it, you've run them out of gas, but you still have a 3/3 Shrouded Mongoose who will ride to victory unless they can do something about it.

But that's an ideal situation.

There aren't really any decks that come to mind that cripple opponents by just destroying lands. But yeah, crippling a resource can be seen as control. Those BW Confidant (and I guess Eva Green now) decks ran hand and land destruction.

Both decks are different, but try to disrupt the early turns to get ahead.

[DragoFireheart]

A 3/3 Shrouded Mongoose isn't really that scary when you consider that 2 mana gives a 4/5 and 4 mana can give you something even larger. I don't see how this deck type is still viable in the current meta game.

[Adan]

A 3/3 Shrouded Mongoose isn't really that scary when you consider that 2 mana gives a 4/5 and 4 mana can give you something even larger. I don't see how this deck type is still viable in the current meta game.

This is not the problem, it's rather the way this deck works. It somehow does for some reason, but it plays 2 spells average per turn and has no possibility to generate any cardadvantage.
This is the reason why tempo thresh can't play a control-role on the long run. Maybe for 2 turns or something, but you will need a creature to make that efficient (and that's why a 3/3 creature that doesn't need to be protected IS actually scary for the opponent).

[DragoFireheart]

This is not the problem, it's rather the way this deck works. It somehow does for some reason, but it plays 2 spells average per turn and has no possibility to generate any cardadvantage.
This is the reason why tempo thresh can't play a control-role on the long run. Maybe for 2 turns or something, but you will need a creature to make that efficient (and that's why a 3/3 creature that doesn't need to be protected IS actually scary for the opponent).

I'm not doubting what the deck can do but it's simply a strategy that doesn't seem as scary as it used to be.

Goblins and Merfolk have ways around the mana denial ala Vial. A single vial utterly ruins this deck.

Zoo is quite vulerable due to running three colors, but can easily match your mongoose with their 3/3 Cat if you can't deny them hard enough.

CounterTop is also vulnerable but if they land a Top followed by a Counterbalance, that is almost game.


I guess what I am trying to say is that this deck doesn't seem to have the punch it used to when compared to news of now. Back then, a 3/3 Shrouded Mongoose was amazing. Now, it's still a good creature and works in this deck but I have had it not go all the way simply because the opponent was able to outsize him just by playing creatures.

[chokin]

Vial is a must counter for the deck. Force or Daze becomes pretty critical. Game 2 you have Pierce, Grip, Predator as other options to deal with it.

Bolt can handle the kitty. And Wasteland makes it smaller.

Have you ever played the deck? Successfully? No offense or anything, dude. But there are obvious problems that just ruin this decks gameplan, but that's every deck.

[DragoFireheart]

Vial is a must counter for the deck. Force or Daze becomes pretty critical. Game 2 you have Pierce, Grip, Predator as other options to deal with it.

Bolt can handle the kitty. And Wasteland makes it smaller.

Have you ever played the deck? Successfully? No offense or anything, dude. But there are obvious problems that just ruin this decks gameplan, but that's every deck.

I have played the deck and sometimes countering a vial isn't a option when the opponent also has counters [Merfolk], or there are other things that if you don't counter will cause you issues [Goblins].

[Whit3 Ghost]

When poking around the Lotus Tourney, I heard that there was a Tempo Thresh list that was running Jace the Mind Sculptor over the usual bounce spells. Although I haven't tested it and the list didn't T8, I think that New Jace warrants a look because he does everything I've wanted in my flex spots. He's one of the most permanent removal spells in our colors. He generates legitimate and long term card advantage in a deck that has zero ways to do that. He's an absolute fucking bomb in late game topdeck races, which this deck has a hard time winning (if your opponent drops a Goyf after an exhaustive resource battle, you usually have 0-2 long term answers left to draw). He's as much of a long-term wincon as a guy like Trygon Predator is.

Although he's more expensive and slower than the bounce config that's usually run, but I think that doing everything that he does warrants some testing. I'll try and give it a run-through tomorrow.

[atropos]

When poking around the Lotus Tourney, I heard that there was a Tempo Thresh list that was running Jace the Mind Sculptor over the usual bounce spells. Although I haven't tested it and the list didn't T8, I think that New Jace warrants a look because he does everything I've wanted in my flex spots. He's one of the most permanent removal spells in our colors. He generates legitimate and long term card advantage in a deck that has zero ways to do that. He's an absolute fucking bomb in late game topdeck races, which this deck has a hard time winning (if your opponent drops a Goyf after an exhaustive resource battle, you usually have 0-2 long term answers left to draw). He's as much of a long-term wincon as a guy like Trygon Predator is.

Although he's more expensive and slower than the bounce config that's usually run, but I think that doing everything that he does warrants some testing. I'll try and give it a run-through tomorrow.

There's a guy in my meta who runs one main and an additional one in the board. Not sure if he has 19 lands or something like that to support him but it definitely sounds like a worthwhile plan. It's so rough to out-tempo people as much as you can and just not have an answer to one single Tarmogoyf they resolve. I've seen some decks on deckcheck that have 19 lands and 2 Cryptic Command in the bounce slot but Jace 2.0 seems better. Let us know how it goes.

[Blitzbold]

There is a very good list around containing Jace 2.0. It placed 9th at GP: Madrid, so didn't get much attention. As a long-time TT-Player it immediately drew my attention, though.

Courtesy of Smenni's work, here is the list:

9th Place, Rafeal Del Riego
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendillion Clique
2 Sower of Temptation
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Island
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra’s Factory

Sideboard:
3 Firespout
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
3 Spell Pierce
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge

I like it, but I don't have any Jace now.

[Whit3 Ghost]

Meh. It looks like Dreadstill had a baby with Tempo Thresh more than anything. I'm not interested in man-lands, cutting Goose, or shaving a bunch of crucial cards down to three-ofs while simultaneously upping your curve. I'm not discounting its success, but it certainly doesn't look like something I would play, or that fits snugly in the discussion of Jace as a replacement for bounce.

[Tangle.Wire]

Am i wrong or isn't this the "Next level ********" list again? I already think running cc4 spells in the Canadian shell won't work as its to much to invest.

[Nidd]

After some "discussion" with someone on another forum about Canadian Thresh in the current meta, I'll just ask here.

What do you CT players think about the situation of CT in the current meta?
Does it have a place?
Is the BoM finish just random or is it because the deck is strong against the current meta?
Can someone tell me about how many Top8 finishes CT had during the last 365 days?

[GUnit]

After some "discussion" with someone on another forum about Canadian Thresh in the current meta, I'll just ask here.

What do you CT players think about the situation of CT in the current meta?
Does it have a place?
Is the BoM finish just random or is it because the deck is strong against the current meta?
Can someone tell me about how many Top8 finishes CT had during the last 365 days?

The number of top8 finishes isn't really relevant, because very few people are actually playing the deck compared to other archetypes.

The deck is just fine, though it's not as potent as it originally was simply due to the fact that people know how to play against it now, whereas before they would walk into stifle and daze, or put themselves in situations where a single lightning bolt will end the game.

Although a resolved vial is problematic for this deck, goblins and merfolk are both favourable matchups, so the impact of this deficiency is lessened considerably.

Lastly, for anyone who doubts the potency of nimble mongoose, you severely misunderstand this deck. The goose is the most important card in the deck and is completely irreplacable.

[five]

I think Thresh is still a legitimate option in the current meta. I can't think of another Aggro deck better equipped to deal with combo. One reason that people may be down on this deck is that it is difficult to pilot. I ran Zoo and Merfolk before I ran Thresh, and I found those decks much more forgiving. Once I got the hang of Thresh it was very good to me. It is also much more fun and satisfying than those other decks.

For the past few weeks, I have been running New Horizons. I find that deck very similar to Tempo Thresh. I even play it in a similar fashion; by saving mana for Stifle, Pondering, Countering, Wastlanding, all while playing my creatures a bit later in the game. The main difference is that the threats in NH become much larger in comparison (around 10/10 for sure). Of course, Thresh has some strenghts over NH (Shrouded Goose, better combo match up, amazing 1 land hands!), but I have had more personal success with Horizons at the moment.

A question about Jace 2 in Threshold: How do you get the mana for that guy? I am a fan of the 18 land build, and it seems really unrealistic have 4 mana available after sacrificing Wastelands and such. You could never play it around Daze unless you have FOW back up. I found V-Clique difficult to play for the same reason, and it costs 1 less.

I actually once tried replacing the V-Cliques with 1 Trickbind and 1 Dreadnaught. I can't say that it was a success, although my opponents did have to waste resources they normally woudn't (Explosives, Counters, etc). Maybe nextime I will go with the original bounce spells. I actually never tried those in the flex spots.

[routlaw]

I've found V-Cliquie hard to play as well. Between dodging Daze and dealing with wasteland (you can't always have the stifle for it), two cards that are everywhere, getting the land needed to actually get one to stick isn't always a given. I'm going to keep playing them a bit more since I'm still pretty new to the deck and like the added threat density, but it seems like it takes few turns on average to get three land out, especially if you are proactively using your wastelands against the opponent's mana base. I'm going to play a few more weekly tourney with the cliques and maybe swap out to bounce spells if I continue to have a hard time getting them out in a timely manner in games.

I certainly can't see Jace being much more than a card that pitches to force with the current mana base. Four mana + dancing around opposing dazes is really rough for this deck.

My two cents as a new Legacy player-I think the deck still has some game in it. Most of my losses playing and testing it so far were always close and usually had play errors on my part (it's tricky and pretty interactive, which gives you plenty of rope to hang yourself with). It doesn't do anything really unfair though, and doing unfair things both can quickly win games you otherwise would have to work a lot harder to win and steal games against your matchups that are otherwise really bad.

Also the slight move to more edict/sacrifice effects and green hosers like Perish hurts Thresh quite a bit, IMO.

[DragoFireheart]

Lastly, for anyone who doubts the potency of nimble mongoose, you severely misunderstand this deck. The goose is the most important card in the deck and is completely irreplacable.


Then I misunderstand this deck now. I would like for you to explain this to me as I don't see this decks power being the same it was a few formats ago when Mystic Enforcer was a game ender.

[GUnit]

Then I misunderstand this deck now. I would like for you to explain this to me as I don't see this decks power being the same it was a few formats ago when Mystic Enforcer was a game ender.

This deck's gameplan in most matchups, even when it is counterintuitive to do so, is usually to apply early pressure while using disruption to delay the opponent's gameplan long enough to end the game. Not can the goose come down on turn 1 if necessary, but it is a perfect foil to all the tarmogoyf removal which is rampant in this format. Against many decks, which bank on removing creatures, a resolved goose can quickly end the game, whereas tarmogoyf may end up hanging out in your sideboard after game 1.

The goose is what allows this deck to so forcefully pursue a tempo/disruption gameplan. We don't have the resources (card advantage) to both protect a threat and generate tempo and mana denial against our opponents. The main strength of the goose is that it provides a reasonable clock while requiring no babysitting. Sure, when goyf is good he's really really good, but the goose is a more reliable and resilient win condition. I can't fully articulate the strengths of the card, but take it from someone who has been playing the archetype for ever: nimble mongoose is what makes this deck work.

[troopatroop]

I think Tempo Thresh needs to compare itself to New Horizons. Both decks have the same resource denial plan, with slightly different plans to end the game (Nimble Mongoose vs. KOTR/Terravore). Personally, I feel that New Horizons plays the better threats, and more of them. Every creature in New Horizons is virually impossible to outclass in the combat step. The same can't be said for the Mongoose.

[GUnit]

I think Tempo Thresh needs to compare itself to New Horizons. Both decks have the same resource denial plan, with slightly different plans to end the game (Nimble Mongoose vs. KOTR/Terravore). Personally, I feel that New Horizons plays the better threats, and more of them. Every creature in New Horizons is virually impossible to outclass in the combat step. The same can't be said for the Mongoose.

The comparison between the two decks is plain to see, however the decks play out quite differently from one another. New Horizons absolutely plays superior threats, but thresh gets the benefit of more of a tempo game because it has burn spells, fewer land, and it doesn't have to tap out to play threats. I think the benefits of New Horizons are more tangible and much clearer on paper than those of thresh. Once you test both decks they begin to seem much more different from one another than they look on paper. NH is not just "the same deck with better threats." Beyond the maindeck, 4 red blasts out of the board is another boon provided by red.

[MULocke]

GUnit is correct. New Horizons' creatures are hard to outclass in combat. However, they're easy to outclass with spot removal. Sowrds, path, smother, etc all give the deck problems. Nimble Mongoose is a very resilient threat, and your best card against control decks (Landstill, etc.). Goose is made even better because a lot of sweepers get stopped by Stifle (Engineered Explosives and Deed), and he even dodges Maze of Ith against lands. Also, the red in the sideboard is huge. REB is insane against blue decks, killing Rhox War Monks and such against bant and ensuring your spells always resolve post-board. You also get pyroclasm against tribal where decks that play one or two giant dudes like Terravore and Knight tend to get swarmed by guys plus a few lords.

[Aleksandr]

What is a sideboard for blind metagame?

[Ozymandias]

3 Tormod's Crypt-GY decks
3 Spell Pierce- decks without dudes/decks without relevant 2-drops
3 Pithing Needle-flex answer-could go with PoP or Reb or extra Submerge
3 Krosan Grip-so you don't just fold to resolved CBtop
3 Submerge-green decks, obv,

Other options are pyroclasm, REB, Grudge, more GY hate.

[jazzykat]

I use the spell pierces vs. cb top to stop them from resolving top and counterbalance. You will more likely need to burn away their early Hierarch (if played) to keep the pierces turned on for most of the game.

[MULocke]

3 Tormod's Crypt-GY decks
3 Spell Pierce- decks without dudes/decks without relevant 2-drops
3 Pithing Needle-flex answer-could go with PoP or Reb or extra Submerge
3 Krosan Grip-so you don't just fold to resolved CBtop
3 Submerge-green decks, obv,

Other options are pyroclasm, REB, Grudge, more GY hate.

This sb seems kinda weak. What are you needleing? Relic? Top? There are no cards that are insane enough against us to warrant needle, really. Krosan Grip and Spell Pierce do the same thing in most matchups, so you don't need both. Also, Pyroclasm definitely needs to be in there, and Submerge is insane. This is the core of what I played for awhile:

4 Submerge
2 Pyroclasm
3 REB
3 Spell Pierce

This setup leaves 3 open slots as metagame decisions. With the popularity of reanimator, they could easily all be Tormod's Crypt. I ran a combination of Trygon Predator and Mind Harness at the time.

[Wargoos]

This sb seems kinda weak. What are you needleing? Relic? Top? There are no cards that are insane enough against us to warrant needle, really. Krosan Grip and Spell Pierce do the same thing in most matchups, so you don't need both. Also, Pyroclasm definitely needs to be in there, and Submerge is insane. This is the core of what I played for awhile:

4 Submerge
2 Pyroclasm
3 REB
3 Spell Pierce

This setup leaves 3 open slots as metagame decisions. With the popularity of reanimator, they could easily all be Tormod's Crypt. I ran a combination of Trygon Predator and Mind Harness at the time.

Totally agree with this one, although I would advice to run no krosan grips when running spell pierce just with md Bouncespells to have answers to permanents we couldn't counter right away.

[say no to scurvy]

I didn't see this mentioned, but here's the report I found from the French guy who placed 23rd at Madrid with an old school version of tempo with mental note and counterspell, as well as of all things, decimate.

http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/gazette/show_article?ref=451

Use google translator etc

[Wargoos]

I didn't see this mentioned, but here's the report I found from the French guy who placed 23rd at Madrid with an old school version of tempo with mental note and counterspell, as well as of all things, decimate.

http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/gazette/show_article?ref=451

Use google translator etc

Actually it was mentioned in the Madridthread.
While it was a cool showing and all I do not see any advantages of the old version over the recent builds.

[GrimJack]

Is there a better alternative to Mongoose in this archetype? Just finished playing Thresh for first time in weekly tournament with 4x Mongeese, and I found myself unimpressed with it. Sure, shroud is nice, but it seemed to always be a 1/1. By the time I hit Threshold on turns 3-5, there always was something else out there that was bigger.

Could Quir Dryad possibly be a quicker better aggro threat? (Gro) Alternatively, has anyone consider Spellstutter Sprite for this slot?

[Wargoos]

Is there a better alternative to Mongoose in this archetype? Just finished playing Thresh for first time in weekly tournament with 4x Mongeese, and I found myself unimpressed with it. Sure, shroud is nice, but it seemed to always be a 1/1. By the time I hit Threshold on turns 3-5, there always was something else out there that was bigger.

Could Quir Dryad possibly be a quicker better aggro threat? (Gro) Alternatively, has anyone consider Spellstutter Sprite for this slot?

All those cards are not cc1 and 1/1s with worse growing conditions than goose.
Spellstutter is hard to implement because they would be your only faerie and just good in multiples. Also they won't be able to go the distance alone.
Dryad grows too slow and is just underwhelming since you can remove her easily.

If you find that the creaturesuit doesn't fit you you should take a look at the UR/Ugr Faerie Archetype in the established deck forums, also you might be interested in Fatestalker.

[Whit3 Ghost]

Spellstutter Sprite leaves you with four means of actually winning the game and Dryad needs a ton of investment to work. If you're playing sub-optimal finishers, Selke is better because you don't have to pump mana into it to win games. Goose is fine.

Also, my sideboard is usually:
4 Blast
4 Pierce
4 Submerge
3 Crypt

[GrimJack]

All those cards are not cc1 and 1/1s with worse growing conditions than goose.
Spellstutter is hard to implement because they would be your only faerie and just good in multiples. Also they won't be able to go the distance alone.
Dryad grows too slow and is just underwhelming since you can remove her easily.

Fair enough - Although a T1 Mongoose is still a 1/1, and requires you to fetch/play 7 additional spells to get to a 3/3, which seems a little slow too IMO. A T2 Dryad at least grows (some) by turn 3.

I dont think Spellstutters are completely worthless, as its still pretty nice counter to Ponder, Brainstorm, StP, and SDT.

[Wargoos]

Fair enough - Although a T1 Mongoose is still a 1/1, and requires you to fetch/play 7 additional spells to get to a 3/3, which seems a little slow too IMO. A T2 Dryad at least grows (some) by turn 3.

I dont think Spellstutters are completely worthless, as its still pretty nice counter to Ponder, Brainstorm, StP, and SDT.

But the gameplan is to screw the opponent over, so you can't really play spells just to fuel the dryad.
I don't know, I don't see her being any good (as goose replacement).

Of course spellstutters can do stuff you mentioned, also it counters a lot of zoo stuff which makes it a good card in general, but I just find, that the card is way better in other decks and can perform just mediocre in here.

I never had a problem with goose getting thrashed. The thing is that it reaches it's conditions casually while you develop your gameplan and you can drop it anytime. For dryad you have to actively play spells for it to be better than goose and spellstutter just rots in your hand sometimes.

[GrooGrux]

But the gameplan is to screw the opponent over, so you can't really play spells just to fuel the dryad.
I don't know, I don't see her being any good (as goose replacement).

Of course spellstutters can do stuff you mentioned, also it counters a lot of zoo stuff which makes it a good card in general, but I just find, that the card is way better in other decks and can perform just mediocre in here.

I never had a problem with goose getting thrashed. The thing is that it reaches it's conditions casually while you develop your gameplan and you can drop it anytime. For dryad you have to actively play spells for it to be better than goose and spellstutter just rots in your hand sometimes.

Spell stutter does not fit in the deck. It is a counterspell, that is good, but when it works, it ends up in play. Which means you do not reach thresh. However, if you are taking out goose for Dryad and also playing Sprite, you are talking about a different situation; you would basically be playing a different deck.

[Spur Grappler]

Hey guys,
I' m going to play this deck (standard list, just with 2 cliques and no bounce spells) in a tournament soon, but I have pretty much no experience with it. I have two main questions:



1. When do I have to Mulligan? Of course there are the typical reasons like having no lands or two many, but what about a hand like this:

2 fetch
FoW
Stifle
Fire/Ice
Daze
Bolt

The problem here is that I can't put anything on the board and have no possibilities to find a creature. But it would be a shame to throw this away, wouldn't it? So, do I just have to hope to get lucky? What would be the worst hand that I should keep?



2. My Sideboard is the following:

2 Crypt
2 Grip
4 Submerge
2 clasm
3 RedBlast
2 Pierce

My Meta consists mainly of Merfolk, Combo and Zoo. Is this Sideboard good against this Meta? And to be more specific, what do I board out against Zoo for Submerge? All the cards in the Main seem to be pretty good against this deck. I think I would choose Daze, but I am really not sure if that'd be a good idea, because Daze works so well with our mana disruption plan.



Until now, I pretty much played almost different landstill versions in my entire tournament career. That's why I have some trouble with this deck's completely different winning strategy. I would really appreciate any kind of help. Thanks!

[five]

1. When do I have to Mulligan? Of course there are the typical reasons like having no lands or two many, but what about a hand like this:

2 fetch
FoW
Stifle
Fire/Ice
Daze
Bolt
The problem here is that I can't put anything on the board and have no possibilities to find a creature. But it would be a shame to throw this away, wouldn't it? So, do I just have to hope to get lucky? What would be the worst hand that I should keep?



2. My Sideboard is the following:

2 Crypt
2 Grip
4 Submerge
2 clasm
3 RedBlast
2 Pierce

My Meta consists mainly of Merfolk, Combo and Zoo. Is this Sideboard good against this Meta? And to be more specific, what do I board out against Zoo for Submerge? All the cards in the Main seem to be pretty good against this deck. I think I would choose Daze, but I am really not sure if that'd be a good idea, because Daze works so well with our mana disruption plan.


I am not the most experienced player with this deck, but I like the questions you asked. I played in around 10 small tournaments with this deck, 1st place twice and almost always top 4. I like the deck list, but not too fond of the V-Clique. I wanna try the bounce spells next time I play the deck. SB looks good, but most people in this thread advocate 4 Pierce and 0 Grips. If you see a lot of CBTop, you may want grips I suppose. That combo locks out this deck due to the many 1 drops etc.

That hand you presented is a difficult choice indeed! I guess it would be easier if you knew what deck you were playing against. I think it is ok vs. combo with the counters and Stifle. You could probably make it work against aggro too. I wouldn't worry too much about not putting anything on the board right away. Your mana can be utalized by t1 Stifle their fetch, t2 Daze their spell, t3 ice their land. Hopefully by then you draw a threat or a Brainstorm. I know it is not much tempo gain by waiting so long to drop a critter, but I did that a lot while playing this deck. If you are disrupting your opponent,gaining card advantage, and filling your 'yard than you're doing most of what this deck is supposed to do.

I would side out Daze if you're on the draw and FoW if you are on the play. I don't think FoW is too necessary against Zoo anyway, Snare hits lots of their good stuff (Goyf, Jitte, QPM, Price of Progress, Helix, Library, etc etc). Your mana denial should keep Daze active for much of the game too.

Hope this helped, rather than lead you astray lol. As I said, my experiance is limited. Someone else will pipe in soon hopefully.

[Spur Grappler]

Thanks a lot. What you said was definately helpful. I think boarding out FoW makes some sense against a deck like Zoo.

Another Question: How good is Clique in this Deck? It seems to me that most lists play one Clique and one bouncer. I wanted to play 2 Clique and no bouncers. Is there really a need for a card like Wipe Away or Rushing River preboard? Merfolk for example doesn't need anything like that and it has no removals just like us. I really like the Clique because of it's evasion. 3 mana is quite a lot for this deck of course, but when you have 3 mana it seems to be the best card you could play, so 2 copies seems to be a good number to me.

[Omega]

In practically every control deck I play, I also run V. Clique. Its a nice way to up your kill condition to 3 and it can also serves multiple functions.

Tempo thresh seem to have fallen out of my Meta

[five]

Thanks a lot. What you said was definately helpful. I think boarding out FoW makes some sense against a deck like Zoo.

Another Question: How good is Clique in this Deck? It seems to me that most lists play one Clique and one bouncer. I wanted to play 2 Clique and no bouncers. Is there really a need for a card like Wipe Away or Rushing River preboard? Merfolk for example doesn't need anything like that and it has no removals just like us. I really like the Clique because of it's evasion. 3 mana is quite a lot for this deck of course, but when you have 3 mana it seems to be the best card you could play, so 2 copies seems to be a good number to me.

Yeah, I think that bit about boarding out FoW was the best of the advice I had to offer. I think I'll flip flop and tell you to mull that hand you mentioned, especially if you don't know what you're playing against. Without Brainstorm + fetch, that hand is probably too risky.

Typically, the best time to play a V-Clique is at the end of the oppenent's draw phase. This gives you the opportunity to take their best card before they can play it. The problem with this deck is that the Clique ties up all your mana, so you can't Stifle or Spell Snare that turn. So now the best time to play the Clique is at the end if their turn, if you have mana for it. I guess this is fine, but it feels cumbersome to me. Not to mention that I rarely saw anything of value in oppent's hands, so I was basically paying 3 for 3/1 flier (also okay, considering it was flashed in with unused mana). Of course, you can target your self and draw a card w/ it. I never did. I dunno, just kind of unimpressed with the Clique. That is why I am going to try the Rushing River/Wipe Away package next time I play. I love the rest of the list though; great synergy. It is okay to have a couple of flex spots to play with. Please let me know your take on the Clique after a bit of testing.

[Exospaciac]

I don't have too much experience with the deck, but it seems like a lot of people playing the deck are looking for another creature to play.

Has anyone considered running Burning-Tree Shaman? It seems like it could potentially do quite a bit of damage, especially to a mana-starved opponent or anyone running SDT.

[MULocke]

I don't have too much experience with the deck, but it seems like a lot of people playing the deck are looking for another creature to play.

Has anyone considered running Burning-Tree Shaman? It seems like it could potentially do quite a bit of damage, especially to a mana-starved opponent or anyone running SDT.

It's been discussed, but the consensus is that it's not god enough. Three mana at sorcery speed is a lot to ask, as it is both hard to get to three and leaves you mostly unprotected for a turn (you don't always have the force). Also, countertop is a fairly solid matchup already, and he's pretty weak against zoo and some other key matchups. Blue instants (creatures with flash) seem like the best option on three mana.

[lolosoon]

I don't have too much experience with the deck, but it seems like a lot of people playing the deck are looking for another creature to play.
I've played 4x Lavamancer with 2x Cliques along the mandatory 4x Goyf, this change makes your deck a bit 'Sligh-ish' and helps the Tribal matchup.

I was expecting a lot of Merfolks and Goblins, though, so it worked fairly well...

[GUnit]

I've played 4x Lavamancer with 2x Cliques along the mandatory 4x Goyf, this change makes your deck a bit 'Sligh-ish' and helps the Tribal matchup.

I was expecting a lot of Merfolks and Goblins, though, so it worked fairly well...

You're already favoured in the tribal matchups with the stock list. Nimble mongoose is the defining threat of this archetype. Cutting it for lavamancers will make good matchups better and even matchups unfavourable. Goose is your main gameplan in so many different matchups. Goyf, by contrast, can be safely sideboarded out regularly, whereas siding out goose is very rarely a good idea.

[chinEsE girl]

After playing this deck for a couple years, I've found that mongoose has just gotten weaker as legacy has evolved. A resolved Elspeth is pretty much GG unless you have clique (if you're playing it) or if you find burn to get rid of the soldier, and also have either a second creature or more burn to finally take her down after you attack. Mongoose also gets outclassed really quick by other prevalent cards like rhox war monk and knight of the reliquary, and even though you can take it down with some burn (or REB after board), mongoose just doesn't have much going for it anymore IMO.

In fact I've switched my deck over to Next Level Thresh, the list that placed ninth at GP Madrid and have found it to be a great evolution to the deck. I understand that tempo thresh is more aggressive then next level thresh, which is much more of a control deck, but they still have a lot of similarity. They both can attack an opponents manabase, they still have the counterspell goyf plan backed up by burn, but the greatest improvement I've seen is with the late game of Next Level Thresh. Too often when I still played tempo thresh I'd just run out of gas and not be able to close the game out. Next Level thresh has a much more diversified threat base, and being able to play cards like Jace and sower of temptation make the matches against green decks much better, especially the bant matchup. I haven't had too many tournaments where I have run Next Level Thresh, but the two ones where I have run it I've gotten 10th in a 130 person tournament, plus another just last weekend where I finished 2nd out of 80 people (the 6/12 play the game lotus tournament for anyone who cares). I did have some success with tempo thresh, but so far NLT has been outstanding and been a step in the right direction IMO. And when I did get the chance to play against tempo thresh last weekend in the pseudo-mirror I did crush it pretty easily :tongue:

[Arsenal]

Every thing this deck is good at doing, Merfolk does better without the shaky manabase. I don't see a reason to play this over Merfolk anymore.

[whienot]

Tempo Thresh has a better game against Goblins and Zoo than Merfolk does. I'd rather compare TT to New Horizons than 'folk.

[Ozymandias]

It doesn't come out too favorably in that comparison either. New Horizons gets giant cheap monsters, and TT gets Bolt and Fire/Ice. Unless the t1 lackey is crushing your meta...

[Wargoos]

It doesn't come out too favorably in that comparison either. New Horizons gets giant cheap monsters, and TT gets Bolt and Fire/Ice. Unless the t1 lackey is crushing your meta...

Giant cheap monsters that cost 3 mana.
Also how do creatures compare to instants?

[Ozymandias]

Well, the assertion I'm making is that New Horizons is better able to a) capitalize on its tempo gains, b) play a reasonable game against decks that it can't stall, and c) come back from behind on the board--three things that Terravore and KotR do better than Bolt and Fire/Ice.

[Arsenal]

Also, New Horizons runs hard removal (Path, StP) whereas TT runs pseudo-removal... just like Merfolk.

[Henrik]

I don't get this thing where you guys post in a thread just to tell everyone how much better a bunch of other decks are.
Do you go to a rock-concert and approach the first guy in the bar and say "Yeah you know, I really am more of a Lady Gaga kind of guy, this music is so over!"?

[Arsenal]

I don't get this thing where you guys post in a thread just to tell everyone how much better a bunch of other decks are.
Do you go to a rock-concert and approach the first guy in the bar and say "Yeah you know, I really am more of a Lady Gaga kind of guy, this music is so over!"?

Legitimate questions were posed re: the effectiveness of TT in the current meta. People, me included, were giving possible reasons that TT wasn't showing up and/or placing like it had been. If you're suggesting that we should not identify potential weaknesses in TT, then what's the point of having a discussion thread? So that we can all circle-jerk each other all day proclaiming the greatness that is TT? Seriously?

[rancOr_]

@chinEsE girl
Nice results!
I've been playing NLT aswell but didnt have a chance to test it in a tournament yet,will do so soon.
You are completly right with saying Mongoose isn't what it used to be, I agree. While TT is still viable I want to discuss NLT,and I think its better placed here then in the Faeries thread. I love the deck,the only thing im not sure of are the F/I;perhaps they can be changed to something else,or just play less. I've been playing 4 LB and rest is pretty standard so far.

[Wargoos]

@chinEsE girl
Nice results!
I've been playing NLT aswell but didnt have a chance to test it in a tournament yet,will do so soon.
You are completly right with saying Mongoose isn't what it used to be, I agree. While TT is still viable I want to discuss NLT,and I think its better placed here then in the Faeries thread. I love the deck,the only thing im not sure of are the F/I;perhaps they can be changed to something else,or just play less. I've been playing 4 LB and rest is pretty standard so far.

I think NLT warrants an extra thread, since it's neither TT nor faeries.

[Purgatory]

It saddens me to see that this deck, one of my favourites of all time, has fallen out of grace both in regards to this thread and the more recent T8s I've seen. Whether or not NH is better, I can't say, I just picked up the deck and I'm playing both, all things considered. Nimble Mongoose might not be a powerhouse but against some decks, the 3/3 clock is great and he is hard to get rid of.

There are some more advantages with TT, compared to NH. As far as NH vs. Zoo goes, all the "big guys" in NH can be Path'd, and one will need to keep countermagic handy for that occasion. Mongoose will never be Path'd. As far as Goyf goes, Zoo is likely to win a Goyf war thanks to Pridemage, Lavamancer and an abundance of assorted burn spells. NH runs "hard removal" indeed, but it is only 4x StP and 2x EE (the usual lists at least - mine is ripped right from the one in the primer here, and I run those removals). TT has at least 4 Bolts (kills most things in Zoo, bar Knight and Goyf) and 4 Fire / Ice, which can take care of Steppe Lynx and Lavamancer, or at least tie the Goyf wars.

Another small edge TT has is its low curve, which helps making Daze more useful in the early game. Picking up a land is not so bad in TT, since most spells cost 1 anyway, but in NH the creatures cost 2 or 3 mana a piece, which is tough to get if you want to use Daze too.

Further, TT runs more countermagic than NH, and the FoW in TT is a lot more stable than the one in NH. Holding back on a Brainstorm or similar just to have a pitch is nothing unusual to me when I play NH, but it is very rare in TT.

I have so far played quite a lot of hands against Zoo with TT, and though my friend and testing mate is somewhat inexperienced with Zoo so far and I don't think too highly of all the Players on MWS, I still can't remember losing to Zoo in a tournament setting with this deck. The brilliant sideboard available to TT, together with the cheap removal and mana-denial strategy means I have done well against Zoo so far.

Another aspect to consider for the future is that if there is indeed a rise of Zoo in the metagame, that means that one of TTs toughest matchups, Mono-Blue Merfolks, will have more trouble in tournaments. Couple that with the fact that I at least personally view Zoo as a decent to good matchup both pre- and post-board, could TT be a viable choice for tourneys from now on?

[DragoFireheart]

TT is too much of a meta game deck. Mongoose is too small and bolt is too weak at killing larger monsters.

I said it a few posts back and I'll state it again: this deck is not going to be Tier 1 material anymore due to mongoose being too underwhelming.

[Purgatory]

TT is too much of a meta game deck. Mongoose is too small and bolt is too weak at killing larger monsters.

I said it a few posts back and I'll state it again: this deck is not going to be Tier 1 material anymore due to mongoose being too underwhelming.

Right, but say your metagame has fewer Merfolk decks and more Zoo decks than average, would it then be an adequate choice? I still get the feeling that very few match-ups, bar maybe Lands, is completely lost on this deck.

[Shriekmaw]

If anyone is interested in my tempo list just let me know. I tweaked the list a little for the heavy aggro environment at columbus which got me to a 9-2 start. Unfortunately, bad matchups happened after that and finished just outside of the top 100. I'm not sure how many people are actually interested in this deck still. Just let me know, always willing to share.

[firstshot]

What bad matchups did you end up running into?

I played tempo threshold as well to a t64 finish. The changes to my maindeck were -2 Vendillion clique +2 preordain. My sideboard was:
2 tomrods crypt
2 faerie mccabe
2 pyroclasm
4 submerge
2 spell pierce
2 trygon predator
1 price of progress

I started with 2 byes and ended up playing
2 countertop 1-1
2 tendrils 1-1
1 alluren 1-0
1 new horizons 0-1(might have punted)
BGW(brad nelson) 0-1
7 zoo 6-1 (my loss was to 3 sylvan libraries g1 of which #3 resolved when I couldn't find a win con and g2 choke)

[Ssbm Rocks1]

What bad matchups did you end up running into?

I played tempo threshold as well to a t64 finish. The changes to my maindeck were -2 Vendillion clique +2 preordain. My sideboard was:
2 tomrods crypt
2 faerie mccabe
2 pyroclasm
4 submerge
2 spell pierce
2 trygon predator
1 price of progress

I started with 2 byes and ended up playing
2 countertop 1-1
2 tendrils 1-1
1 alluren 1-0
1 new horizons 0-1(might have punted)
BGW(brad nelson) 0-1
7 zoo 6-1 (my loss was to 3 sylvan libraries g1 of which #3 resolved when I couldn't find a win con and g2 choke)

Now aren't you glad you took my suggestion?

[Shriekmaw]

What bad matchups did you end up running into?

I played tempo threshold as well to a t64 finish. The changes to my maindeck were -2 Vendillion clique +2 preordain. My sideboard was:
2 tomrods crypt
2 faerie mccabe
2 pyroclasm
4 submerge
2 spell pierce
2 trygon predator
1 price of progress

I started with 2 byes and ended up playing
2 countertop 1-1
2 tendrils 1-1
1 alluren 1-0
1 new horizons 0-1(might have punted)
BGW(brad nelson) 0-1
7 zoo 6-1 (my loss was to 3 sylvan libraries g1 of which #3 resolved when I couldn't find a win con and g2 choke)


Here is a quick round by round mini breakdown, started with 0 byes.

Round 1 Zoo (2-0) 1-0
Round 2 Zoo (2-0) 2-0
Round 3 Zoo (2-0) 3-0
Round 4 Survival Zoo (2-0) 4-0
Round 4 U/w/g Landstill (1-2) 4-1
Round 5 U/g/w Countertop (2-1) 5-1
Round 6 Thopter Control (2-1) 6-1
Round 7 Mono Blue Merfolk (2-0) 7-1
Round 8 Deadguy variant (top 8 deck) (2-1) 7-2

Round 9 Aluren (2-0) 8-2 (some guy named David Williams :) )
Round 10 Aluren (2-1) 9-2
Round 11 Zoo (0-2) 9-3 (I had a really good hand, but never found the 2nd land until it was too late, game 2 was very close but lost)
Round 12 New Horizons (0-2) 9-4
Round 13 Landstill (u/w/g) (0-2) 9-5
Round 14 CounterTop Bant (0-2) 9-6 (I just drew like shit and decided to just drop after this round since I was out of the money)

Changes to list

2 Rushing Rivers
4 Fire/Ice became 4 Chain Lightnings

SB

1 Pyroclasm
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 RED
2 Pyroblast
4 Spell Pierce
4 Submerge

[goobafish]

I also played Chain Lightnings in Columbus, I like the change. I play them over 2 F/I and 1 Wipe Away right now, as I think 4 CL is overkill.

[Anarky87]

I know this is a serious necro. Apologies in advance. This one of the decks I still play pretty regularly, though it appears to have lost some of its power. Recently getting back into Legacy after about a year and a half hiatus I'm just looking to update my list. Would the list Goobafish is referring to look like:

4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
3 Scalding Carn (or whichever)
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
2 Fire/Ice

1 Rushing River

I see Oliver Oey in Europe has pretty good success piloting a similar list (-3 CL, -1 RR, +2 Trygon, +2 F/I. Which is what I'm currently running as well)

[Cenarius]

You guys should give a try on this list. Getting pretty good results with it. 2nd place on a 113 people tournament, top 8 at a 79 people tournament, 'top 4 Team challenge' (doens't really count), and 5-3 (after going 5-1, my concentration was gone after long hours of play) at GP Madrid, are my last 4 tournaments.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ghastly Demise
1 Smother / Spell Pierce (Metagame, choice)
2 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

4 Ponder

4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (Depending on your metagame ofcourse. Cards can be swaped/switched easily):

3 Phyrexian Dreadnought (Merfolk, Goblins, Elves, TES, Random decks pref with no Stp/Pte/Condemn)
3 Pithing Needle (Survival, Landstill, Merfolk, Goblins)
3 Extirpate (Madness, Ichorid, Random Reanimator decks) (Most arguable slot, since Reanimator is gone)
2 Mind Harness (Zoo, Countertop, Bant Agro, Madness)
1 Submerge (Madness, Zoo, Countertop)
3 Hydroblast (Goblins, Burn, Mb TES if they play Rite)

If u have questions, ask them. I would like to answer them. Mainboard & Sideboard cards, sideboarding etc.
I wanted to make a primer for this deck, but I'm just too lazy to make one. If you want to play tempo, play/test this. It's incredible powerful in the right hands.

[Anarky87]

How well does it perform in a sort of random environment? Our tournaments are usually pretty random without a lot of *actual* Legacy decks and I'm usually hesitant to play Thresh due to things like 20land40creature.dec which is why I play Landstill most of the time and sweep.

I played the black splash here not too long ago in a small 4 round tournament and went 3-1-1 (Split with first for store credit). Seemed pretty decent, only losing to a B/g Control deck. My list was a little different (removal package of 3 Edict, 1 Demise, and 2 EE), but I enjoyed the Confidant refilling my hand after early/mid game pressure. However, I like the removal of red doubling as damage to finish off opponents.

[keys]

If you don't play red for reach, I think you need to play evasive creatures. Tombstalker is the reason Team America is successful. If you're going with those colors, you should try that.

[The Big Ragu]

Wouldn't it make sense to combine both of the threshold threads into one? Just a thought.

[DerFern]

Wouldn't it make sense to combine both of the threshold threads into one? Just a thought.
Yeah, and add CB/Top, CAB Jace and Landstill. I mean, they all play Force and Brainstorm...

[Cenarius]

@ Keys:

You clearly dont know how Dark Confidant and (real) removal works. Dark Confidant is probably the only reason why this deck is infact broken. It makes your draw-games, much better. It even makes your play-games, much better. A turn 1 Stifle, Turn 2 Dark Confidant will offer you a 70/80% chance to win. For real.
The problem with burn is, is when a creature resolves from your opponent. The only way you can actually remove the creature is by attacking with your Goyf. Do you agree? I mean, all creatures are bigger than Nimble Mongoose these days, so attacking with Nimble Mongoose and Lightning Bolt their Goyf or anything (after) is an horrible idea. You have no clock, you have removed your burn card from your hand. An horrible idea. But it's the only way, with Red Tempo Threshold.
With (real) removal, all your creatures become better, especially Nimble Mongoose. You now have removal for Knight of the Reliquary's, Tarmogoyf's, Terravore's, even Dreadnought's (if they don't rush, which they don't). With (real) removal, you keep control over the game. Whereas with red, u try to attack for 6x. Then hopefully put them in burn reach, and then try to draw burn before you're dead. It's not good enough anymore. You can't attack with Nimble Mongoose or anything else for 6 turns anymore without losing the control.

Team America is horibble, in my opinion. It doesnt play Confidant (right?), Nimble Mongoose, plays more land, doens't play spell snare.Seems horrible for an tempo list, tbh.

@ Anarky87

Well I haven't tested against 20 Land, 40 creature's deck. I think the matchup is way more better than with red, since you have removal, Dark Confidant and a good sideboard plan: Dreadnought. You also have Mind harness to steal their creature's and submerge to bounce one to deal the final damage. I think the matchup is infact pretty good.

[Oddball]

You guys should give a try on this list. Getting pretty good results with it. 2nd place on a 113 people tournament, top 8 at a 79 people tournament, 'top 4 Team challenge' (doens't really count), and 5-3 (after going 5-1, my concentration was gone after long hours of play) at GP Madrid, are my last 4 tournaments.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ghastly Demise
1 Smother / Spell Pierce (Metagame, choice)
2 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

4 Ponder

4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (Depending on your metagame ofcourse. Cards can be swaped/switched easily):

3 Phyrexian Dreadnought (Merfolk, Goblins, Elves, TES, Random decks pref with no Stp/Pte/Condemn)
3 Pithing Needle (Survival, Landstill, Merfolk, Goblins)
3 Extirpate (Madness, Ichorid, Random Reanimator decks) (Most arguable slot, since Reanimator is gone)
2 Mind Harness (Zoo, Countertop, Bant Agro, Madness)
1 Submerge (Madness, Zoo, Countertop)
3 Hydroblast (Goblins, Burn, Mb TES if they play Rite)

If u have questions, ask them. I would like to answer them. Mainboard & Sideboard cards, sideboarding etc.
I wanted to make a primer for this deck, but I'm just too lazy to make one. If you want to play tempo, play/test this. It's incredible powerful in the right hands.



I did 6:1 with my NQG/b twice last month at the monthly Iserlohn (76 participations) and the monthly Dülmen (53 participations) and so finally managed to get back into the game with two 2nd places since I've quit playing in 2008.

Our Maindecks are very similar.


Main Deck:
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

4 Dark Confidant
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

2 Diabolic Edict (No/Pro + Emrakul + Mongoose)
1 Ghastly Demise (to be able to play at least 4 cc1 removal post board)
2 Smother
2 Engineered Explosives (Zoo Critters, Vial, CB, Chalice/LED/Moxen/Token, MoR....this card's so impressive!)

6 Fetchlands (it's fine with only 1 demise)
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Hydroblast
3 Spell Pierce
3 Disfigure
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives

I think the differences are mediocre.
While my creature removal is resistant to graveyard hate, yours's improving the Goblin and Zoo matchup quite a lot and the mana curve gets a bit better (-2). Don't you have to board them out very often?

I played a similar board in 2008 with 3 dreadnoughts and 3 mind harness, but since most people have boarded enchantment/artifact hate for no reason, I cutted them.

[Cenarius]

The only decks where u board Dreadnought's don't have artifact or enchantment hate, or do not expect a turn 2/3 (depending on what deck you're playing) Dreadnought. I won dozen games against Merfolk and Goblins by just resolving Dreadnought and protecting it. It's really a dozen, already. Gosh.

I don't like EE's in the list, because they're bad when u both got a goyf. Or where u have a Nimble Mongoose and your opponent has a wild nacatl. I can think of many more examples of bad situations, ofcourse there might be pretty good examples to be named aswell. I just don't like dead cards in my hand. Or atleast, I want to lower the amount of dead cards in my hand as much as possible.

Congratz with the results.

I also believe that everyone should play 8 fetch, 6 duals. It's just so much better. I think I'm playing that configuration for a long time now, a long long time and have never faced any problems. I mean, Brainstorm + Fetch at turn 2 is probably one of the sickest plays in legacy. I'd like to do that as much as I can.
Disfigure? Wow. Sounds like a really solid card against Merfolk/Goblins. Might even make my sideboard, although countering Ringleaders/Matron's with Hydroblast is also pretty cool. What are your thoughts about the card?

[Oddball]

The only decks where u board Dreadnought's don't have artifact or enchantment hate, or do not expect a turn 2/3 (depending on what deck you're playing) Dreadnought. I won dozen games against Merfolk and Goblins by just resolving Dreadnought and protecting it. It's really a dozen, already. Gosh.
I don't think that there's a need for a turn 2/3 Dreadnought against Goblins/Merfolk.


I don't like EE's in the list, because they're bad when u both got a goyf. Or where u have a Nimble Mongoose and your opponent has a wild nacatl. I can think of many more examples of bad situations, ofcourse there might be pretty good examples to be named aswell. I just don't like dead cards in my hand. Or atleast, I want to lower the amount of dead cards in my hand as much as possible.
Well, the same is true for Spell Pierce ;-)
But actually I'm thinking of playing your version next Iserlohn. I think it's very hard to get which one's better.



Disfigure? Wow. Sounds like a really solid card against Merfolk/Goblins. Might even make my sideboard, although countering Ringleaders/Matron's with Hydroblast is also pretty cool. What are your thoughts about the card?
You should try -Dreadnoughts, + Disfigure in your board! That fixes the problem with those postboard demises (if there is any problem) and you don't need to fight a Dreadnought through 3 turns of possible swords, submerges, warren weirding,stingscourger etc.

Merfolk gets a really tough matchup fighting their critters through 7 removal

[Cenarius]

I'm sure I will not remove the Dreadnoughts from my Sideboard. It's one of the reason why I've been doing good at tournaments, lately.
I've already tried more removal against tribal decks, it just doesnt work. U need removal and a fast clock. Dreadnought sure does create a fast clock, and all your cheap counters and good removal keep critters already from the table.
U should test the Dreadnought, they're absolutely fantastic. The reason it's so fantastic: you'll loose if you'll get in lategame against these decks. Goblins has tremendous cards to topdeck, like half of their deck is good to topdeck in lategame. Same goes for Merfolk, they just draw lord, lord, lord, lord. Dreadnought allows u to avoid this from happening.

About spell pierce. The card is awesome. Still in doubt whether to play 2 or 3. They counter cards that are absolutely terrifying:
Sensei's Divining Top
Vial
Standstill
Planeswalker
Can counter cantrips, if u have a lot of pressure on them
Show and Tell / Natural Order
Etc.

You all know the list.

[keys]

@ Keys:

You clearly dont know how Dark Confidant and (real) removal works. Dark Confidant is probably the only reason why this deck is infact broken. It makes your draw-games, much better. It even makes your play-games, much better. A turn 1 Stifle, Turn 2 Dark Confidant will offer you a 70/80% chance to win. For real.
The problem with burn is, is when a creature resolves from your opponent. The only way you can actually remove the creature is by attacking with your Goyf. Do you agree? I mean, all creatures are bigger than Nimble Mongoose these days, so attacking with Nimble Mongoose and Lightning Bolt their Goyf or anything (after) is an horrible idea. You have no clock, you have removed your burn card from your hand. An horrible idea. But it's the only way, with Red Tempo Threshold.
With (real) removal, all your creatures become better, especially Nimble Mongoose. You now have removal for Knight of the Reliquary's, Tarmogoyf's, Terravore's, even Dreadnought's (if they don't rush, which they don't). With (real) removal, you keep control over the game. Whereas with red, u try to attack for 6x. Then hopefully put them in burn reach, and then try to draw burn before you're dead. It's not good enough anymore. You can't attack with Nimble Mongoose or anything else for 6 turns anymore without losing the control.

Team America is horibble, in my opinion. It doesnt play Confidant (right?), Nimble Mongoose, plays more land, doens't play spell snare.Seems horrible for an tempo list, tbh.


Confidant isn't tempo. All your creatures get outclassed or chumped. Your (real) removal is blanked by a Relic of Progenitus. That said, your deck is clearly broken and Team America is trash. I know nothing about magic and I'm a bad person.

[Anarky87]

I think I'll run with the black splash at the next tournament. I just like the idea of Dark Confidant too much to back to red. I don't know why I have that fear of critter decks when I've had nothing but good results whenever I played Thresh. Probably an over exaggeration.

I didn't like Dreadnought from my first look. But the more I think about it, the more I do like the idea of just a late (or early for that matter) game huge creature that is an answer-me-now-or-lose kind of card. I also think adding spell pierce (I went for 3, running the list Cenarius posted) will help against the decks I had trouble with.

Also I never really thought TA was that great of a deck. I played UGr CounterTop at GP Chicago and was 2-0 both times I played against it. Seemed like it just did nothing for a long time and then played a Tombstalker and hoped you didn't answer it (maybe both opponents just both had terrible hands/mulligans, but I don't really think so). Unless something has been printed that makes it sick.

[Dark Ritual]

I like splashing black for confidant and some really solid removal e.g. ghastly demise. Confidant is the best 2 drop in legacy. He beats tarmogoyf at the 2 drop slot; like someone just mentioned, going first turn stifle second turn confidant is GG's in most cases because he nets you lots of CA to negate FoW's card disadvantage and to enable you to draw a lot more business. The red splash in canadian thresh is okayish but it often doesn't get there against big dudes like knight of the reliquary, terravore, tarmogoyf, hell fire doesn't even kill wild nacatl when it is fully pumped and trading a bolt for a nacatl after it has dealt damage is a bad move.

I like dreadnought in the side for some MUs where they can't deal with it (12/12 trampling I BEAT EVERY CREATURE IN COMBAT is awesome sauce when they can't deal with it). It further improves the combo MU not that that MU was very bad in the first place it was quite good in fact but against merfolk what will they do if the 12/12 sticks. Absolutely nothing can save them save getting a lot of board presence with lords and such which if we allowed to happen means we are likely losing anyways unless we have a firespout in hand.

[Oddball]

I like dreadnought in the side for some MUs where they can't deal with it (12/12 trampling I BEAT EVERY CREATURE IN COMBAT is awesome sauce when they can't deal with it). It further improves the combo MU not that that MU was very bad in the first place it was quite good in fact but against merfolk what will they do if the 12/12 sticks.
You just have to deckcheck some current Merfolk lists and you'll see the following:
Submerge, Swords to Plowshares, Echoing Truth, Threads of Disloyalty

[miko]

Playing Canadian my most loses were due to having a) not enough creatures. Or b) I lost to opposing Relics and c) lost to bigger creatures, because of not having evasion...
Because of that i adopted the Dead//Gone-plan for c) and added 2 Vendilions for c) and b). And chose to play Pithing Needles in my sideboard.
My list looks like that right now.

Mainboard:
2 Fire / Ice
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dead / Gone
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Vendillion Clique
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland

# 60

Sideboard:
3 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyroblast
4 Submerge

# 15

This might be a possible solution to some of the problems Canadian Thresh has. I like Goobas idea (adding Chain Lightnings to have better removal/extend your burn-range - only problem i see is if you play three of them you might have not enough pitch-cards for Force of WIll...), too, but I like to rather have a solution for Knight of the Reliquary or other bigger-than-mine-creatures.

What do you think about these changes? Are ten creatures too much? Is Dead//Gone and Fire//Ice split 2/2 a good idea?
I will test and show you results.
Is it a bad idea to cut Spell Pierce in SB?

[Cenarius]

Ok, interesting posts.

@ keys, I'll just ignore you. Your statements speak for themselves.

@ Anarky, I hope you'll get a good result. I hope u can do something with my sideboard plans.

@ Dark Ritual, thanks. I appreciate it.

@ Oddball, Submerge can be dealt with by Dazing your tropical. The'll never reach 5 mana in time. Echoing Truth, are u serious? You think they board Echoing Truth at game 2? They won't. Maybe for game 3, but if there's one thing this deck is good at, it's winning counterwars. If you suspect Echoing Truth/Threads of Disloyality, Spell Pierce will be your friend. Keep it in, and you'll have a good time. About Swords to Plowshares, the merfolk lists are either Mono Blue or with a black splash, so I'm not afraid of Swords to Plowshares. If they do play white, just keep Spell Pierce in the mainboard and board other stuff out.
Just try it out first, before telling me that some cards will be good against Dreadnought. I won about 7 matches against Merfolk and Goblins in the last 4 tournaments, never drawed and never lost. I think it says something.

@ Miko

I think my decklist deals with the problems of Tempo Threshold.

A) Not having enough creatures: Dark Confidant is a creature and draws creatures. It's absolutely awesome.
B) Lost due to Relic's, my decklist can get more cards in my graveyard + Dark Confidant itself is not harmed by relic. Pithing Needle is a great card to deal with the problems aswell and some matchups get Dreadnought aswell.
C) Lost due to bigger creatures, my list provides removal. Red just gives burn. I think that says enough.

You really should try my list. I think you'll like it.

[Nessaja]

@ keys, I'll just ignore you. Your statements speak for themselves.
He is in fact correct that Dark Confidant is not a card that gives you significant tempo. That doesn't make it a bad card, but does make it a card that doesn't take advantage of the tempo you're creating with your other cards.

Why are you playing Ghastly Demise over Vendetta. I think that with your current list, graveyard removal not only hurts your main beaters, but also your removal spells. And that's a rather serious issue. If an opponent can blank 12 of your cards (from which 8 are your main kill conditions) then you're making yourself fragile against interactions.

Deck looks interesting, I would agree that it could be an improvement from UGr even though now you're losing out on the reach that burn offered to accompany your main win conditions.

[spartan117]

Playing Canadian my most loses were due to having a) not enough creatures. Or b) I lost to opposing Relics and c) lost to bigger creatures, because of not having evasion...


Couldn't agree more. I quitted playing Canadian Thresh for the same reasons.
Nowadays there are too many game-breaking spells that need to be countered, and the stifle-waste plan isn't always enough to stop them from playing those big spells.

So I decided to move to thresh ugb and yesterday I put up a solid 4-0 in matches and 8-0 in games at a local shop.

I played against affinity (old build), zoo, faeries ugr and thopter foundry.

This is the list I played:

4 nimble mongoose
4 tarmogoyf
4 dark confidant

4 force of will
4 daze
4 spell snare
4 stifle

4 brainstorm
4 ponder

4 ghastly demise
2 smother

6 fetches
4 underground sea
4 tropical island
4 wasteland


Sideboard:

3 phyrexyan dreadnought
3 disfigure
2 extirpate
1 tormod's crypt
2 spell pierce
2 krosan grip
2 pithing needle


I'll probably cut a ghastly demise for a smother, due to demise requiring more fetches, and I really don't want to low my dual lands count, often needing the 4th copy.

Dreadnoughts were amazing all-day long against aggro decks, I 'm really satisfied for having given them a try.

Thoughts?

[Cenarius]

@ Spartan

Great result. Last sunday (the undertaker) also got a top 8 place with exactly the same list. He was really content about the list aswell, changing only some minor sideboard cards due to him losing against Enchantress in the Top 8.

Your list shows that your metagame is packed with creatures, so I think your maindeck changes are (obviously) good. Did you board the Disfigure's? Or did you test with them?
About Ghastly Demise #4, Smother #3. Be careful in the Merfolk matchup. They're a lot harder to cast.
About the duals and fetches, when and why did you need the 4th copy of a dual? Just explain, because I never encounted this.

@ Nessaja

Ghastly Demise vs. Vendetta:

1. Dark Confidant and his lifeloss;
2. Vendetta seems horrible when you're racing;
3. There are really big creatures in the format, I just dont want to lose 12 life to destroy a Terravore.

Those reasons alone are good enough for me to play Ghastly Demise.

About Dark Confidant,

Are you sure Dark Confidant isn't a tempo card? Even if it isn't, Dark Confidant is awesome with tempo.
Why? It's probably thé card that benefits the most from tempo.
Dark Confidant also provides card advantage, which means more options per turn. More options per turn, means indirect tempo. Isn't it?

[spartan117]

@Cenarius

Glad to see that this deck is putting up results again, 'gratz to the undertaker for the finish.
I gave disfigure a try but didn't find any tribal deck, and I didn't draw them against zoo, but I think they should be ok, especially for the tribal MU. Tests will show if they're worth the slots.

Talking about the 4th copy of each dual land, I must say that my meta is packed of decks using wastelands (madness, merfolks, goblins or other tempo decks, which are played a lot in my area) and sometimes I really need to find the 4th dual. I know it doesn't happen too often, but I prefer to be able to find the land I need. Merfolk in particular is a tough MU because they're hitting your black mana sources (namely undergound sea) pretty hard. Luckily dreadnought completely solves the problem, I really love this solution to this kind of MU.

That said, I have to admit that playing a fetch over a dual has its benefits, especially talking about reaching threshold, playing demise and shuffling after brainstorm, so I do see why you play it and I can't really find anything to disagree.

Confidant is probably the card I love the most in the entire deck. It provides card advantage (totally absent in canadian) and higher treats density: what could you ask more from a single card?

[Dark Ritual]

Glad to see the black splash doing well. I might just have to put together this deck over Next Level Threshold because it's looking solid right now. I love the color black as well for providing some great removal spells and BOB is huge.

I wouldn't ever play vendetta over ghastly demise. If you're going to play vendetta why not just play snuff out? That card creates tempo at the cost of 4 life to remove that terravore, knight, goyf, etc. etc. Snuff out is all around better than vendetta IMO. Ghastly demise might get replaced with innocent blood in aggro meta's because if you have a dark confidant you're taking too much damage from you can sack it to innocent blood and kill their creature as well. Although even innocent blood probably doesn't make the cut because of the drawbacks of if you have only a goyf out drawing it is terrible and the sorcery speed makes it even worse against vial decks.

Disfigure intrigues me. It looks really sweet against a lot of decks although there are times when the card is pretty terrible. However it works great at killing steppe lynx and a turn 1 nacatl is answered by it. Against goblins it kills pretty much everything in their deck and answers the turn 1 lackey. Merfolk is hit by it pretty easily assuming they have only one lord effect out two lord effects makes it okayish if you can block their creatures.

The 4th dual land slots are meta dependant like spartan said if you see lots of wastelands pack 4 sea's and 4 trop's if not you can always play more fetches to abuse brainstorm to the limit.

[Scordata]

I'm just gonna chime in here.

I had been playing TA extensively, and while it is a very powerful deck in the right meta, it just gets blown over late game.
Goblins, Zoo, and Merfolk had been such a pain when things get into the 5 land zone.
Plus I hated staring at a 'stalker in my hand with like 4 cards in my gy.
I happened to stumble upon these UGB lists myself, ran em, and was freakin blown away.


I'm not into the 12/12 try to win the game thing.
I don't think 2 card combos are where this deck wants to be.
Plus I'm nowhere near ballsy enough to put all my faith in one fatty.

Running EE main is the right call IMO. I can't think of a decent deck that's not hurt by this.

[sa17dk]

I'm just gonna chime in here.

I had been playing TA extensively, and while it is a very powerful deck in the right meta, it just gets blown over late game.
Goblins, Zoo, and Merfolk had been such a pain when things get into the 5 land zone.
Plus I hated staring at a 'stalker in my hand with like 4 cards in my gy.
I happened to stumble upon these UGB lists myself, ran em, and was freakin blown away.


I'm not into the 12/12 try to win the game thing.
I don't think 2 card combos are where this deck wants to be.
Plus I'm nowhere near ballsy enough to put all my faith in one fatty.

Running EE main is the right call IMO. I can't think of a decent deck that's not hurt by this.

I agree with both your assessment of Team America and Dreadnought.

I hear everyone saying "Dreadnought is soooooo awesome against Merfolk." Really? You're talking about Merfolk, the deck with Curscatchers, Daze, Force, and SB Spell Pierce for your Stifles right? Not to mention the fact that you should be boarding out Stifle against Merfolk anyway.

I wish they made some better 1 mana removal for black. Getting 2/3 of your creatures and your removal raped by Tormod's Crypt sucks =(

[Jonathan Alexander]

I kind of had the same problems with Team America. The things I disliked the most about it were playing Tombstalker and Tarmogoyf in the same deck at first and how weak it tends to be in the lategame. It might be able to play the tempo-role nicely but it also runs out of gas quite easily. I think the new UBG-Threshold variant is the future of both Team America and Canadian. Still I have to say I'm not quite sure about the Phyrexian Dreadnought plan from the board. Seriously, I don't see it being that good, all the decks were you would want it have. All the decks against which you would want it have removal for it, and especially Threads Of Disloyalty from Merfolk can ruin your day.
Anyway, I like the idea of playing Dark Confidant and Ghastly Demise, Smother and black removal in general, I think it really benefits the deck since it makes up for most of both decks weaknesses e.g. not drawing enough creatures and lack of cardadvantage and proper removal. I'd love to see Snuff Out working in here, but the lifeloss will be too much I guess.

[Cenarius]

About Dreadnoughts. The one's that DID test with the card are very fund of it. The one's that DID NOT test with the card are in doubt. Maybe you guys should test it. You'll get fund of the card.
Running either EE or Innocent blood or Snuff Out, is just wrong in my opinion. I don't get why you would like to possibly kill your own creature or lose 8 life (possibly) in order to kill theirs. It will happen a lot, and I'm sure its bad. Black offers real removal, why not just play those?

Dreadnought wins against Merfolk because it has its suprise effect. Same goes against Goblins (let them matron first f.e.), same goes against any other matchup that does not suspect the card in this deck. This is why I hesitated on sharing my list. If people get more and more aware of possible Dreadnoughts in my sideboard, my suprise effect is gone and therefore maybe even games will be lost.

Anyway, it's hard to defend cards or card choices if people never test these cards or never test the list on their own. Just get a feeling with the deck, before sending posts about card choices that are made during years of testing (of my and my teams test-results).

[Jonathan Alexander]

Well, to be honest the last time I played Dreadnoughts was in like 2006 so I don't know how good they are right now though I have to say that I never lost to one. That might be the reason why I'm not able to see how good they actually are. I'll test them soon. But you are right about people not testing cards. People usually rather tend to replace cards they find odd than to actually test them. Sometimes stuff is really not worth testing but most of the time it's basically better to test everything.
Anyway, what I don't understand is why you dislike Engineered Explosives. Innocent Blood and Snuff Out might not be good here, but Explosives is definitely a good card since it's really versatile. They might be worse than additional spotremoval mainboard but they're definitely a really good sideboard card.

[GGoober]

Adan did well with 2 EE list with UGb thresh I believe.

I always thought that TA > UGb Bobthresh until more results with Bobthresh proves its point. Also, drawing tons of cards wins games, Bob's popularity in Vintage is simply due to this fact. Bob actually fits well in this deck since you have way too many disruption/counter to protect and ride him to victory.

Just curious, why no Vendilion Cliques? I'm always a fan of Cliques in tempo deck, everything about her reads tempo:
- Flash at 3cmc fits into the untapped lands bluff-> Stifle/counter, EOT clique or draw-phase clique depending on the situation
- 3/1 flyer evasive and ends game fast, allows you to even ignore opposing creatures and race with an evasive 3/1 while disrupting
- Her ability is very good in tempo decks, taking the best card and having future knowledge.

In addition, I'm a fan of Jace in tempo decks, he's not true tempo, but he fits the tempo role with all his abilities: bounce, fateseal, brainstorm. The reason why I think the UGb Bobthresh is strong is because Bob basically acts like a mini-Jace early game, and provides beats too.

[sa17dk]

About Dreadnoughts. The one's that DID test with the card are very fund of it. The one's that DID NOT test with the card are in doubt. Maybe you guys should test it. You'll get fund of the card.
Running either EE or Innocent blood or Snuff Out, is just wrong in my opinion. I don't get why you would like to possibly kill your own creature or lose 8 life (possibly) in order to kill theirs. It will happen a lot, and I'm sure its bad. Black offers real removal, why not just play those?

Dreadnought wins against Merfolk because it has its suprise effect. Same goes against Goblins (let them matron first f.e.), same goes against any other matchup that does not suspect the card in this deck. This is why I hesitated on sharing my list. If people get more and more aware of possible Dreadnoughts in my sideboard, my suprise effect is gone and therefore maybe even games will be lost.

Anyway, it's hard to defend cards or card choices if people never test these cards or never test the list on their own. Just get a feeling with the deck, before sending posts about card choices that are made during years of testing (of my and my teams test-results).

I actually have tested Dreadnoughts and no it's not as good as you say. What surprise factor? Sure, the fact that youre running Dreadnought in particular might be surprising, but they always board in boatloads of removal for games 2 and 3, so the creature being a Dreadnought doesnt make much of a difference.

[GGoober]

Wouldn't it be better to go game 1 UGb Tempo Thresh with Dreadnoughts in it take the game by surprise then board them out after they dilute their decks with artifact hate?

Seems that this is a better strategy since you're improving game 1 matchups against random jank/unknown decks, and diluting your opponent's game 2/3s when they board in grips etc. And you can even bluff in games 2/3 pretending you still have dreadnoughts lol.

[Scordata]

@metalwalker

If this deck is going to run dreadnoughts, I would have to agree with you.
That having been said however, I would then cut the geese for 3 dreadnoughts and 1 trickbind.

Maybe 3-4 geese in sb?

This deck rocks because of the threat density, and oftentimes the shroud is what gets you there.

[Arsenal]

Mongoose was "bad" in UGr Thresh because it wasn't big enough to get through opposing creatures and Bolt isn't enough to kill relevant creatures anymore. Mongoose is now "good" in Black Thresh because you can simply Smother the opposing creature now.

[sa17dk]

Wouldn't it be better to go game 1 UGb Tempo Thresh with Dreadnoughts in it take the game by surprise then board them out after they dilute their decks with artifact hate?

Seems that this is a better strategy since you're improving game 1 matchups against random jank/unknown decks, and diluting your opponent's game 2/3s when they board in grips etc. And you can even bluff in games 2/3 pretending you still have dreadnoughts lol.

Exactly. I dont understand the thought process of people sometimes.

Game 1: You win/lose.
Opponent brings in creature hate.
You bring in...creatures? What?

The only time Dreadnought is a "surprise" is

1) In game 1 where they expect to see cute critters like Goyf and Mongoose after seeing your first Confidant, and instead meet a giant Dreadnought.

2) Or when you bring them in game 2 for a deck that normally doesnt run creatures (ex. a storm combo player busting out the stiflenought plan after game 1. not that storm combos do this or should, but it's just an example).

As metalwalker said, if youre going to run Dreadnoughts, they would be better suited for game 1 to bait out the Krosan Grips for game 2 (aka what Dreadstill does when they board out Noughts and go for the Jace plan in game 2). If you want to get 2-for-1'd all day in the removal-heavy game 2, be my guest. Sounds like a lot of tempo.

Stiflenought is a dangerously deceptive combo. It's easy to become "fond" of it because of those random Stiflenought + Force backup wins. But you have to really weigh the pros and cons of it. You dont see SB Dreadnoughts in all stifle/tempo lists. There is a reason.

[Oddball]

About Dreadnoughts. The one's that DID test with the card are very fund of it. The one's that DID NOT test with the card are in doubt. Maybe you guys should test it. You'll get fund of the card.
Well,you're right! But same is true for Engineered Explosives.
I only know current German results. I did a total of 17 : 3 : 0 in tournament plays (3 TOs) over the last 2 months with my list playing 2 Smother, 2 Edict, 1 Demise and 2 EE as maindeck removal and another EE + 3 disfigure to have 7 maindeck removal and 11 post board. Adan tested it once at the same time and did 5:1 as well afaik.


Running either EE or Innocent blood or Snuff Out, is just wrong in my opinion. I don't get why you would like to possibly kill your own creature or lose 8 life (possibly) in order to kill theirs. It will happen a lot, and I'm sure its bad. Black offers real removal, why not just play those?

Over the last 3 TOs Engineered Explosives won 1st games against Belcher, Goblins, Merfolk, CT, 43.Land, Dredge, Bant.....not quiet sure if there were more.
But those are some of the matchups where you absolutly want to win g1 to get another of the remaining 2 games on the play.

I like the 3 Spell Pierce Maindeck and actually I board them in nearly every matchup, but at the moment I don't want to get rid of those Maindeck EEs




Dreadnought wins against Merfolk because it has its suprise effect. Same goes against Goblins (let them matron first f.e.), same goes against any other matchup that does not suspect the card in this deck. This is why I hesitated on sharing my list. If people get more and more aware of possible Dreadnoughts in my sideboard, my suprise effect is gone and therefore maybe even games will be lost.
That's why I hate posting in forums. You're totally right that Dreadnought has a nice surprice effect, but that won't change the opponents' way of boarding against you. It will just change the way your opponents play against you and that's just g2.


Anyway, it's hard to defend cards or card choices if people never test these cards or never test the list on their own. Just get a feeling with the deck, before sending posts about card choices that are made during years of testing (of my and my teams test-results).
And again: same is true for EE :-)
You talk about your good results and testings and you congratulate people who perform well at random 4 round events with Dreadnought, but you can't neither negate the results of those who did well without dreadnought, nor that dreadnought:
- creates carddisadvantage
- is a non-tutorable 2 card combo
- make your stifles dead handcards until you draw dreadnought (or do you really wait until you brainstorm/ponder/mulligan randomly into both at once?!)

[Jonathan Alexander]

I don't think running Dreadnought mainboard is that much of a good idea either. There's not much room for it and I don't think that I'd want to run a card I board out against basically everything except stormcombo since basically every deck in the format has a way to deal with Dreadnought. There are Swords, Pathes, Bounce, Engineered Explosives, Qasali Pridemages and a lot more. Most decks have something to deal with it mainboard. In general you want to use your Stifles to create tempo and not to hold them back until you draw a Dreadnought. If you draw Dreadnought and already used your Stifle, you're drawing a blank basically. Against Merfolk, where Dreadnought shines the most, you usually would board out Stifle, at least that's what I do most of the times, though I have to say that the number of Merfolk decks splashing a color increases and therefore Stifle gets better here. If you're looking for something against Merfolk, I'd look at Engineered Explosives again. The card is so powerful, seriously. And it's good against basically everything. I really like Oddball's removal suite a lot, but personally I'd cut one of them for another land and play a slightly different manabase with basics,but that's a metagame call.

[Cenarius]

I agree with a lot of things you say, Jona. The suggestion of playing Dreadnought in the Mainboard is like shooting me in the leg. No really.
The dreadnought option is against decks that, indeed, do not play:

Swords to Plowshares
Path to Exile
Pridemage
Easy removal, like Innocent blood.

To be honest this is arround half of the metagame. Right?

Dreadnought has the suprise effect. Your opponents doesn't suspect the card or either does not have a counter left. Dark Confidant is a must-counter, even sometimes Tarmogoyf is a must-counter for your opponent. They don't expect a follow-up play of Dreadnought-Stifle. They just expect me to cantrip or maybe play Mongoose or something else. Something random, but not Dreadnought!
About Dreadnought being not good against Merfolk. It won me in total 3 matches in the past three tournaments, which is a lot. The matchup is 50/50, yet I do have a result that's staggering. I'm in total 5-1-1 or something like that. If you tell me, it's a bad strategy, you must be insane. Either test the card or don't. But stop saying it's a bad strategy, if you have 3 test games as a results (or even less, I really don't know).

About Engineered Explosives. I tested the card. I really did. I didn't like the fact that it's either a dead card in my hand (which means it also removes a creature of mine), or that I would have to tap out in order to remove something. Tempo Threshold doesn't have many mana sources, tapping two mana (on sorcery speed) is a lot. You're two turns busy to remove a single Goyf on turns 2/3/4. These and a lot of other arguments I could post, give me enough reason to not play Engineered Explosives.

I know Adan played Engineered Explosives. He's the reason I started playing this deck. He gave me the idea of Phyrexian Dreadnought. I was searching for a way to beat tribal decks. If I didn't find the answer, I would not have played this deck. For real.

Btw, who says Nimble Mongoose is the worst creature of this list? Nimble Mongoose became so much better with 'real' removal. In my opinion (which is a bit weird), Nimble Mongoose > Tarmogoyf (in this list).
I never liked tapping out two mana (sorcery speed), for a creature that gets destroyed so easily. I just play the card because it's an answer against an opposing goyf (and well, it's still pretty good XD).

Anyway,

I think we can conclude some things about the last two pages.

[B]4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Dark Confidant

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
0/1/2 Spell Pierce (I play 2 now, can be 3 in some metagame's)

5/6/7 Removal (my current list plays: 4 Ghastly Demise/1 Smother)
This can be a mix of EE, Smother, Edict, Demise. The reason I play my package, is explained above (vaguely).

4 Ponder

Either,

8 fetch, 6 duals, 4 wasteland (<----- I definately prefer this one, I've never needed the 4th copy. And I have a metagame full or Tempo decks, Goblins, Merfolk, Agro-loam etc.)
or
6 fetch, 8 duals, 4 wasteland

Second,

Can we guys mutually share test results? It will lead to a more constructive discussion about the deck, instead of me defending some card choices.
I would like to know how good disfigure is against Merfolk/Goblins/Zoo. Haven't tested this myself yet.
The guys that did not test Dreadnought, or did not test it properly. Test it.

Think I forgot something, well who cares. Today is another chance.

[GGoober]

Agreed that Mongoose > Goyf. Tapping out for Goyf on turn 2 is always a dilema for the deck. You want to pressure beats in, yet you want to disrupt. Depending on the matchup and your hand and future turns, this decision will cost or win you the game. Mongoose allows you to start the pressure AND play the tempo game on turn 2.

When playing UGr, Mongoose > Goyf until a big creature appears. Since UGr cannot deal with big creatures outside of a bounce spell, you have lost the tempo race once they get a Warmonk out against your 3/3. With UGb, you can now continue to push through with Bob drawing you more cards and keeping you in the game.

Piecing this up for the weekend, I'm a fan of the 2EE catch all in game 1. Jank exists, and Tempo doesn't really do well against Jank. I'll miss the burn reach of UGr, but Bob himself is kind of a 'reach' in that he keeps you way ahead in the game.

So a forum-mate believes that Tempo-thresh is inherently a beatdown deck. But I think the definition of beatdown in his context is too general to have value aka, every deck is a beatdown deck if it ultimately want's to beat and win the game. I think the crux of the debate was if Tempo Thresh plays more proactively or reactively. As far as I know, Tempo Thresh's success is a function of reacting to your opponents, and because of this reactive-play, you can capitalize on tempo advantage. And a good example to emphasize this is decks playing around Daze/Stifle/Waste have a better chance to survive against Tempo Thresh than decks blindy running into Daze/Stifle/Waste, which emphasizes the huge tempo gain from playing reactively.

Granted that dropping Geese/Bobs are all pro-active plays, but the true tempo is STILL inevitably gained from reactive plays, i.e. you drop a Goose/Bob with mana open. Your opponent has to deal with them or lose, to which you react and gain a tempo advantage via disruption. This forum-mate claims that a lot of people don't understand tempo, I probably don't, this is my gut feeling and logical reasoning on what tempo is (I myself have a deep interest in Magic Theory) but at the same time, not recognizing the strengths of reactive plays in Tempo Thresh makes me wonder if he even understands the core of the deck itself? Or am I entirely misled and wrong?

And sorry, no replies from noob Thresh players because this thread on Tempo Thresh has a ton of forum-mates who don't understand the meaning of Tempo, so I'm only taking replies for vets!

(just kidding on the last paragraph but quoting my good friend who thinks bulk of us are oblivious what tempo really is.)

[Henrik]

Two things:

1)
I believe it is really really important to keep some kind of catch all spell, aslo when using the black splash. If any random attack-hoser, such as moat, ensnaring bridge, humility or what-not would catch you off guard (i.e you don't have the fow), then you're just done for, which is somewhat embarrassing and unnecessary. The red splash could solve this problem by a) using a bounce, or b) burn the opponent out, even from 10+ life, if played correctly. Some of you would probably argue that the game-state should never come to where your opponent can play moat safely, or we would have played poorly. And yeah I would probably have to agree with that, but we all know this kind of shit happens. Therefore, if you have a removal suit of 5-7 spells, I'd say you can afford keeping at least a bounce from the red list, or an EE, as suggested. Rushing river has always treated me nicely in all kinds of situations.

2)
If you do play this much removal, why are you still so heavy on the spell snares? There should not be as much focus on hitting random goyfs with those anymore, right? Why not play the full set spell pierce maindeck, to further strengthen your catch-all ability discussed above?

[Cenarius]

Do you know what happens if a Dark Confidant resolves? You bleed to death.
You play spell snare because it hits the most important spells in Legacy. I'm not talking about Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Lord of Atlantis or any other CC2 creature. Standstill, Counterbalance, EE#2, Bwish/IT, etc.
You can't just ignore this.

About the bounce. I was never satisfied about the Bounce. I used to play 2/3 Force Spike in the UGr builds, and was very pleased. If your opponent can resolve a moat, he has about 5/6 lands. If he can resolve such thing, you would have lost anyway. Their lategame is far superior that yours. You either should have mulliganned, or brainstorm'd in another way, Ponder'd in another way, or this or that. It may seem harsh, but you (any of us) probably made a mistake that game that costed you the game.

[Bahamuth]

So a forum-mate believes that Tempo-thresh is inherently a beatdown deck. But I think the definition of beatdown in his context is too general to have value aka, every deck is a beatdown deck if it ultimately want's to beat and win the game. I think the crux of the debate was if Tempo Thresh plays more proactively or reactively. As far as I know, Tempo Thresh's success is a function of reacting to your opponents, and because of this reactive-play, you can capitalize on tempo advantage. And a good example to emphasize this is decks playing around Daze/Stifle/Waste have a better chance to survive against Tempo Thresh than decks blindy running into Daze/Stifle/Waste, which emphasizes the huge tempo gain from playing reactively.

Granted that dropping Geese/Bobs are all pro-active plays, but the true tempo is STILL inevitably gained from reactive plays, i.e. you drop a Goose/Bob with mana open. Your opponent has to deal with them or lose, to which you react and gain a tempo advantage via disruption. This forum-mate claims that a lot of people don't understand tempo, I probably don't, this is my gut feeling and logical reasoning on what tempo is (I myself have a deep interest in Magic Theory) but at the same time, not recognizing the strengths of reactive plays in Tempo Thresh makes me wonder if he even understands the core of the deck itself? Or am I entirely misled and wrong?



Tempo is not nessecairly reactive. Tempo is a something that is inheritly relative and it always has to be looked at that way. I think tempo is best described as being able to develop your board position faster than the opponent. Yet it's relative, which means you can achieve this by slowing the opponent down. Playing an aggro deck that has an optimal curve will net you tempo and might give you the win. This deck nets you tempo by slowing the opponent down and gaining a board advantage because of that. You can do this with proactive or reactive cards. Your deck runs 4 Wasteland, which are very proactive cards. It just so happens that the rest of the most efficient cards to utilize when trying to gain tempo in this deck are reactive. Dark Tempo Thresh could quite easily run Thoughtseize, which is also a good example of a proactive tempo card.

I've seen some discussion as to wether Confidant is a 'tempo card' or not. The truth is that the card does not generate tempo on it's own. It is, however, very good at exploiting that tempo. If you're able to make your opponent have a substantially worse position in the game, he's going to have a much harder time dealing with Confidant (which he can do by either removal or by beating through it).

[Henrik]

I'm not talking about Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Lord of Atlantis or any other CC2 creature. Standstill, Counterbalance, EE#2, Bwish/IT, etc.
You can't just ignore this.

Wait, what?! Are you arguing with me or against me?
Spell pierce hit all of those spells, in addition to SdT, Vial, tons of removal etc, which is exactly my point!
The bleeding thingy you wrote about dark confidant is pure nonsense to me. Not in an insulting way, I just have no idea of what you're trying to say.



It may seem harsh, but you (any of us) probably made a mistake that game that costed you the game

I believe I answered this argument before you wrote it. And as I said, I agree. This does not make it a terrible idea to try to improve the deck's ability to solve a situation that results from such a mistake.

[keys]

Have you guys considered Quirion Dryad in place of Mongoose? I love Mongoose but he gets outclassed by the creatures in the format these days. Dryad at least has the ability to get as big as other things like Knight of the Reliquary, especially with Confidant in play.

If I recall, the reason Dryad never got played before is that it was too easily burned out. In the current meta, with Merfolk and Madness as popular as they are, Dryad is less vulnerable. Besides, Confidant is already a lightning rod for your opponent's removal.

Plus, you can play EE at 1 without friendly fire.

[Dark Ritual]

EE is best against aggro decks and early on when you'll probably be casting EE @1 to stop lynx, ape, loam lion, or nacatl you won't have played mongoose yet because you don't have the mana to do so first turn you typically want mana up for stifle, brainstorm, or on the draw, spell snare. Mongoose also has shroud which is very relevant and costing 1 is what makes him amazing; you don't want to tap out sorcery speed for a quirion dryad unless you are going to have mana up afterwards or you have absolutely no other play other than the dryad. Although I admit dryad has its benefits in a list with bob you will pump dryad up a lot.

What Cenarius means by bleeding out is killing yourself by revealing cards. The worst card obviously being FoW hitting you for a whopping 5 points of damage which is why I run playsets of ponder and brainstorm in here so you can stack your deck so bob isn't dealing lots of damage to you every turn.

I have often thought of running force spike in various decks because it is the best card to answer 1 drops early game. There is nothing better because WotC has not printed a card that reads U Instant Counter target spell with converted mana cost 1 and if they did I would be jizzing my pants over it because god would that card be good. It would essentially read: Stall aggro, stops controls removal spells, get sensei's divining top, counter dark ritual, etc. etc. Force spike is FoW fodder later on just like daze. Force spike loses a lot of power though once your opponent knows you play force spike they will play around it just like they play around daze; get enough mana up to counter it which shouldn't happen with tempo thresh in the first place but sometimes does. Bounce in tempo thresh is like reach in the form of bouncing permanents for an alpha strike and to solve other things like tapping out to play EE or deed only to have it bounced is a timewalk since they can't pop it in response. It is similar to burn spells in that fashion but it burns them via creatures which have a higher damage potential than singular burn spells like bolt deals 3 damage but an unblocked goyf deals 4+ damage typically or multiple mongeese deal 6+ damage.

Quirion dryad also got replaced by tarmogoyf basically since tarmogoyf is better than dryad in a variety of situations such as if you topdeck dryad with no cards in hand it is a 1/1 whereas goyf is a 3 or more power creature pretty much all the time later in the game.

[keys]

EE is best against aggro decks and early on when you'll probably be casting EE @1 to stop lynx, ape, loam lion, or nacatl you won't have played mongoose yet because you don't have the mana to do so first turn you typically want mana up for stifle, brainstorm, or on the draw, spell snare. Mongoose also has shroud which is very relevant and costing 1 is what makes him amazing; you don't want to tap out sorcery speed for a quirion dryad unless you are going to have mana up afterwards or you have absolutely no other play other than the dryad. Although I admit dryad has its benefits in a list with bob you will pump dryad up a lot.

Tapping out to play EE@1 in the first two turns is good but Quirion Dryad is not? This doesn't make any sense. I realize that Mongoose is cheaper, and that makes it easier to keep mana open for Snare/Pierce/Stifle, but the benefit of growing much larger may outweigh the cost. And as I said before, it's a lot easier at any stage of the game to play EE@1 when you don't have any 1cc permanents yourself.

[Henrik]

What Cenarius means by bleeding out is killing yourself by revealing cards. The worst card obviously being FoW hitting you for a whopping 5 points of damage which is why I run playsets of ponder and brainstorm in here so you can stack your deck so bob isn't dealing lots of damage to you every turn.


Aha. Well yes that is a given, isn't it? The reason I was confused is that this has absolutely nothing to do with my suggestion of MD spell pierce. As had none of the other arguments Cenarius gave (BW, IT, Survival Standstill etc.)

@Keys:
Quirion Dryad is a honey, I'd say at least try it out. I never played the card with black splash, but have tried her with both white and red splash. In white, it was a house.

[Cthuloo]

Aha. Well yes that is a given, isn't it? The reason I was confused is that this has absolutely nothing to do with my suggestion of MD spell pierce. As had none of the other arguments Cenarius gave (BW, IT, Survival Standstill etc.)

I never played Tempo Thresh (though I played other tempo decks like Ubr Faeries), and trying to put together a list yesterday I end up thinking a lot about Spell Snare in this deck.
It's strength in a traditional Ugr list is unquestionable, being able to hit very problematic creaturers that you have no other way to remove, but in a black splash version, were you run real removal, it looks like a suboptimal Spell Pierce. I've yet to test the deck in real games, but I'm really interested in what other people think about it.

Other partially unrelated issue: did anyone try thoughtseize as part of the protection package? It could be nice to know your opponent's hand to plan your next turn (e.g. when to tap out for a threat). Is it because it conflicts with stifle? After all this is true also for ponder and moongoose... With reference to cenarius' list of the previous page, I was thinking, for the protection package, something like:


4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
4 Thoughtseize
4 Removal

What do you think?

[miko]

If you want to go for discard: Inquisition of Koczilek might be handy.

[Cthuloo]

If you want to go for discard: Inquisition of Koczilek might be handy.

Yes, it could very well be that the life loss is otherwise too much. But the point is that I'm still not sure if it's a good idea at all ;)

[Scordata]

My thoughts on discard:

While it rocks against control, it ends up being counter-intuative to how the deck plays best.
You NEED to leave mana open for counters. Barring strange circumstances, the deck retains a tempo advantage by playing in this manner. You must make your proactive plays when the oppponent has been crippled for tempo to swing in your favor.

Decks like landstill won't need to race, so just bring your extirpates in g2 if you keep losing that matchup.
The hardest call to make, regarding this manner, is spell pierce.
Its a dead card late in the matchup, and will only protect your goyf for a turn or two.
For this reason I may side out dazes against control, for the pierces.

[Anarky87]

I don't think I could bring myself to cut Snares. While black does run real removal to hit those Goyfs or what have you, cards like Standstill, Survival, IT, BW, etc still need to be stopped and Spell Snare does that for U. Also, when you don't have your removal or they've been able to shut it down with a GY hate or something, it still counters Goyf. I think it to be invaluable.

I've also cut the Spell Pierce down to 2 and added 1 Edict. There were some large black creatures and untargettable creatures running around my meta.

[Cthuloo]

My thoughts on discard:

While it rocks against control, it ends up being counter-intuative to how the deck plays best.
You NEED to leave mana open for counters. Barring strange circumstances, the deck retains a tempo advantage by playing in this manner. You must make your proactive plays when the oppponent has been crippled for tempo to swing in your favor.

Decks like landstill won't need to race, so just bring your extirpates in g2 if you keep losing that matchup.
The hardest call to make, regarding this manner, is spell pierce.
Its a dead card late in the matchup, and will only protect your goyf for a turn or two.
For this reason I may side out dazes against control, for the pierces.

Well, this definitely sounds reasonable. I will try out this protection package:

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Spell Pierce
3 Ghastly Demise
2 Smother
2 Explosives

and see how it works.

[sa17dk]

how are you gonna fit all of that? mind posting your potential list?

[Cthuloo]

how are you gonna fit all of that? mind posting your potential list?

Of course I don't mind at all. :) As I said, I'm new to the deck and have still to test IRL with it, but this is what I plan to assemble:


//Protection\Disruption
:
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Spell Pierce
3 Ghastly Demise
2 Smother
2 Explosives

//Cantrips:
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

//Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Moongoose

//Lands:
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

//Tentative Sideboard
3 Extirpate
2 Yixlid Jailer
3 Engineered Plague
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle / Maelstrom Pulse (they may be too mana intensive, but I wont to try before I decide to dismiss them)
2 Hydroblast / Beb
2 Mind Harness

[PanderAlexander]

//Tentative Sideboard
3 Extirpate
2 Yixlid Jailer
3 Engineered Plague
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle / Maelstrom Pulse (they may be too mana intensive, but I wont to try before I decide to dismiss them)
2 Hydroblast / Beb
2 Mind Harness

Gotta take one out, it's 16 cards.

[Cthuloo]

Gotta take one out, it's 16 cards.

Oops, you're definitely right. Probably the most immediate thing to do is - 2 Needle/Pulse + 1 Grip. It is definitely all WiP, though.

[Oddball]

You shouldn't go down to a total of 13 blue sources!

[Cenarius]

@ Henrik. Bleeding to death was figuratively speaking. If your opponent resolves a Dark Confidant u'll loose. Especially with 4 Ghastly Demise as removal and just 1 Smother. I like spell snare because it hits some the most important cards, Wild Mongrel, LoA, Commander, Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant etc. (and Cb/Standstill/Survival etc.)
Even if I have 'real' removal for creatures, having 3 more answers is not a bad thing. My list already plays 2 Spell Pierce and I'm confidant enough that they ARE good. I just don't want them 4x in my deck, cutting Spell Snare.
Spell Snare is an important card for this deck. Playing a Turn 2 Nimble Mongoose (on the play) and spell snare'ing their turn 2 drop is what tempo is all about. With Spell Pierce you can either do that, or let a creature resolve. Meaning that you will have to find an answer, which is not a good spot for this deck.
Therefore I wish to play Spell Snare. It's too important for the deck.

Hopefully you'll understand my post now, I think I'm pretty clear.

About Thoughtseize

I personally don't like pro-active cards. I really don't like them at all. You opponent either has 2 turn 2 drops, meaning that your opponent is not that hindered, or he topdecks the card and play it.
Let me give an example where Thoughtseize would be played instead of Spell Snare. I guess that's the most likely change.
You're on the play.

T1. You keep your mana open, trying to Stifle
or
T1. You Thoughtseize

Your opponent has Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance en some other cards.
This means your opponent always has a turn 2 drop, meaning you have not gained Tempo at all. You just took a card but that's it. It could be even worse, your opponent could topdeck another Counterbalance and play it on turn 2.
What is the difference with Spell Snare?
Your opponent uses its turn 2 to tap out and play Counterbalance. You spell snare, gaining tempo. Your opponent can either topdeck another one, but it's not on the board yet. Whereas it would have been with Thoughtseize. Thoughtseize + Daze is good, but I believe Spell Snare + Daze is even better.

For that reason I don't like Thoughtseize's. I just don't like pro-active cards and non-blue cards.

About Quirion Dryad

Holy shit, how can u suggest that? What an awful card.
I would never cut Nimble's, unless they provide a bigger one for the same mana + shroud. Which ofcourse is not going to happen. Quirion dryad is an horrible topdeck in mid/late game. Nah, I think the other guys gave enough reasons. It's just not good enough. Way too much for a risk.

About Engineered Explosives

I'm just really really positive the card's way too slow. You cant afford it to be for two turns busy to destroy a Tarmogoyf or 1 Nacatl. I really don't recommend the card.
The guys that play it: play with it, and think if Ghastly Demise was better in that situation. I would like to know what your conclusions are.

About this sideboard

3 Extirpate
2 Yixlid Jailer
3 Engineered Plague
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle / Maelstrom Pulse (they may be too mana intensive, but I wont to try before I decide to dismiss them)
2 Hydroblast / Beb
2 Mind Harness

This has way too much Graveyard hate. How does your metgame look like?
Did you test Dreadnought's?

About Disfigure's

I'm pretty sure its good enough. That's all I have to say about that.

Did anyone test this deck this week?
What did you play against, and what were the results?
What did you came across?

[Cthuloo]

@ Oddball: The singleton Bayou can be useful in some situations (extirpate, choke), and I'm not having any problem in finding blue at the moment...

@Cenarius: you commented on many interesting points.


Discard : Ok, I'm convinced. I was thinking about how Team America profits from discard, but that deck works almost only at sorcery speed, there's a big difference.
Spell Snare: I must say that I'm not 100% sold on the card, but, again, I can see your point. You depicted a situation were Spell Snare is really good, but there are other situations when having it can lead you to make the wrong play. What if you held back Moongoose to spell snare their 2-drop, but they have none? It's a massive tempo loss in this case. I will try the card, in any case.
Explosives: what about maelstrom pulse instead? Still too slow? I know they fit non-identical roles, but I liked the idea of having maindeck answers to counterbalance, survival and zombie/goblin tokens.
Quirion Dryad: Completely agree with you. In addition to what you said, it's another 2-drop, competing with Goyf and Confidant and putting you in a situation were explosives for 2 can destroy your board (were with Moongoose, if they set explosives to 2 they have no way to deal with Moongoose).
Grave hate/Sideboard: I'm feeling confortable with that amount of grave hate. My meta is full of dredge and survival, plus a fair share of thopter sword, landstill variants and loam variants. I didn't try Dreadnought, basically because I don't own them. I will prepare some proxies and give them a shot.

[keys]

About Quirion Dryad

Holy shit, how can u suggest that? What an awful card.
I would never cut Nimble's, unless they provide a bigger one for the same mana + shroud. Which ofcourse is not going to happen. Quirion dryad is an horrible topdeck in mid/late game. Nah, I think the other guys gave enough reasons. It's just not good enough. Way too much for a risk.


The purpose of this forum is to share ideas, not be a jackass, so please relax. It's obvious Dryad is a subpar topdeck, but neither is Mongoose when when you're facing RWM, KotR, Goyf, etc... 3/3 isn't very impressive. Quirion, however, gets huge. Sure, Mongoose has shroud, but who, when given the option, is going to swords your Goose instead of your Goyf or Bob? No one, it's moot.

If you're talking about risky creatures, what about Dreadnought? That's WAY riskier than Dryad, and costs just as much to play.

Anyway, I agree with you on the matter of Thoughtseize and other sorceries. EE as well, just too slow for this deck. Ghastly Demise is awesome (except against Suicide/Eva). I can even get behind most of your sideboard. If anything, I would probably replace the Hydroblasts with more Spell Pierces. Dreadnought might be too cute, but truthfully there aren't a lot of good options against tribal in these colors (besides Needle), so I can't argue against it.


Last thing I want to suggest is Echoing Truth. It slows down Vengevine Survival considerably and is great against goblin and zombie tokens. Could be useful as a 1 or 2-of somewhere in the 75.

[Henrik]

@ Henrik. Bleeding to death was figuratively speaking. If your opponent resolves a Dark Confidant u'll loose. Especially with 4 Ghastly Demise as removal and just 1 Smother. I like spell snare because it hits some the most important cards, Wild Mongrel, LoA, Commander, Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant etc. (and Cb/Standstill/Survival etc.)
Even if I have 'real' removal for creatures, having 3 more answers is not a bad thing. My list already plays 2 Spell Pierce and I'm confidant enough that they ARE good. I just don't want them 4x in my deck, cutting Spell Snare.
Spell Snare is an important card for this deck. Playing a Turn 2 Nimble Mongoose (on the play) and spell snare'ing their turn 2 drop is what tempo is all about. With Spell Pierce you can either do that, or let a creature resolve. Meaning that you will have to find an answer, which is not a good spot for this deck.
Therefore I wish to play Spell Snare. It's too important for the deck.

Hopefully you'll understand my post now, I think I'm pretty clear.

+Quirion dryad bashing


That's perfectly fine, thanks for the effort to explain your statements.
I believe you have a point as well, some kind of split between snares, pierces and powerful removal is probably how i will play it out. I did not realize you actually did play some pierces main, but if that's the case, then we're on the same page.

I do think you're bashing to hard quirion dryad though. As I said, I did NOT test it in BUG thresh, but I did test her in UGw tempo thresh (creature base: 4 goyf, 4 mongoose, 3 dryad), in a list similar to the one played by Grgur Petric Maretic in 2007 Worlds. Yeah, I know I know, that is medieval times in magic speaking, but still, even in my updated list, she WAS close to MVP. BUG thresh is indeed a different matter, since black gives access to dark confidant, so I would not know what to take out to fit QD, of even if I would want to fit her at all. My point is, the mere suggestion of QD in this deck is not at all that terrible, as it is a good card in legacy even today. Very few players acknowledge that.

[Cthuloo]

Yesterday I finally managed to get some testing with the deck. This is what my list looks like right now:

/Protection\Disruption
:
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
3 Ghastly Demise
2 Smother


//Cantrips:
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

//Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Moongoose

//Lands:
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

[To be honest, yesterday I played a few matches with the full set of smother and without ghastly demise, and my manabase had 2 seas and 2 bayous, basically because I'm missing the 3rd sea and was too lazy to proxy it. Never had color screw problems, anyways, so I guess this accounts for the strength of the deck.]

I only played preboard, against Aggro-Loam and a Countertop+Show and Tell variant. I have to say that the deck is a blast to play, and can get out of seemingly impossible situations with the pure strength of its card quality. As you can see I tried Spell Snare, and I have to say that I quite liked it. I'm still not completely decided on the disruption package, but the card earned a bit more consideration from me.

On the other hand I have to say that sometimes the deck loses steam with victory already in sight. I lost a couple of matches where I almost could ride a goyf to victory, only to have it removed or answered by an opposing goyf I couldn't remove. This is where burn came handily in Canadian versions, I guess. With this problem in mind, I would love to find some space for 2 Cliques or Trygon Predators, that can be useful in different situations while providing a body and evasion.

I will probably have some more testing this evening, and let you know how it goes.

[Arsenal]

Canadian Thresh got 4th Place at SCG Nashville. And the top 16 was littered with various Green decks. Thoughts?

[Scordata]

Yes. Trygon Predator is a house in today's meta.

Still, I don't know what was up with Preordain.

[Ozymandias]

Still, I don't know what was up with Preordain.

Oftentimes with Ponder, Canadian Thresh, which is very land-light, is faced with two choices, neither of which is particularly appetizing:

a) Shuffle up and draw a card at random.
b) Draw the card you want, spend two turns drawing garbage. Even if there is a land to shuffle your deck with, it's still garbage because you are on Canthresh and need about 2 lands to operate. If it's a cantrip, you are bleeding tempo by keeping U tapped down over two turns.

Preordain allows you to get the cards you want from the top of your deck without drawing garbage if you don't have a fetch or second cantrip. This is probably worth seeing one less card.

Stifle is pretty good at breaking up Survival chains, countering Basking Rootwalla, and keeping a Vengevine in the yard. Spell Snare trumps Survival, Jitte, Mongrel, and Moeba. More important is the Ben Wienberg is one of the best Canthresh players out there.

[royal]

Hey,

what is your game plan against tribal decks like Goblins or Merfolk? Is it just more removal post board, four copies of Engineered Plage in the SB, Hydroblast against the Goblins, Darkblast as recurring removal, Pithing Needle for their Vial, Firespout like David Lopez did in the Eternal Weekend 2010, or ...?

For the Goblins MU the Plague would be the best in my opinion, but with all those lords it could be too slow against Merfolk. What do you think is the best way to beat them?

[spartan117]

@royal: as you can read from previous posts there a few cards in testing for the tribal MU.

There's a debate on dreadnought, which I personally like really much, it has won me lots of games simply for its surprise effect.
No one suspects you to play a trampling 12/12 instead of your classical little mongoose.

The other card which in discussion is disfigure, which for me has been OK, nor spectacular nor stellar, simply OK.

Please don't play firespout in any deck featuring goose... or confidant. Unless your boarding out both (almost never happens).

Could someone give me an idea of the bgw rock MU?

[Cenarius]

Does Ben Wienburg have an account here? If so, what is his name?

Furthermore,
Ponder > Preordain
3 cards > 2 cards

"Canadian Thresh got 4th Place at SCG Nashville. And the top 16 was littered with various Green decks. Thoughts?"
What do you mean by this? Especially with: was littered with various green decks. Do you think green decks have a overall positive matchup against us, even with the red splash?
Tempo Threshold is one of the best decks, if played correctly. There are just only an handfull of people who do. Is this an english expression aswell? Not sure. Well, you get my point. Every mistake that u make, can cost you the game and therefore (normally) leads to a bad tournament result. I think that's one of the reason's Tempo Threshold not Tier 1 anymore. There aren't (good) enough players, playing it. Especially when you compare it with Vengevival/Merfolk/Goblins or anything else.

Did anyone have some testing results?

About the BGW Rock MU:
It's harsh. You'll either need a lot of pressure and a decent clock (Nimble Mongoose, threshed early) or u'll need Dark Confidant.
We have some sideboard cards to aid you, but it's not much. Besides some Mind Harnes/Submerge and/or Needle's, there isn't much else we could sideboard.

[lorddotm]

Does Ben Wienburg have an account here? If so, what is his name?

Furthermore,
Ponder > Preordain
3 cards > 2 cards

"Canadian Thresh got 4th Place at SCG Nashville. And the top 16 was littered with various Green decks. Thoughts?"
What do you mean by this? Especially with: was littered with various green decks. Do you think green decks have a overall positive matchup against us, even with the red splash?
Tempo Threshold is one of the best decks, if played correctly. There are just only an handfull of people who do. Is this an english expression aswell? Not sure. Well, you get my point. Every mistake that u make, can cost you the game and therefore (normally) leads to a bad tournament result. I think that's one of the reason's Tempo Threshold not Tier 1 anymore. There aren't (good) enough players, playing it. Especially when you compare it with Vengevival/Merfolk/Goblins or anything else.


Ben Wienburg is one of the best players that plays legacy. He has a reason he's playing Preordain over Ponder.

[Ssbm Rocks1]

Does Ben Wienburg have an account here? If so, what is his name?

Furthermore,
Ponder > Preordain
3 cards > 2 cards

"Canadian Thresh got 4th Place at SCG Nashville. And the top 16 was littered with various Green decks. Thoughts?"
What do you mean by this? Especially with: was littered with various green decks. Do you think green decks have a overall positive matchup against us, even with the red splash?
Tempo Threshold is one of the best decks, if played correctly. There are just only an handfull of people who do. Is this an english expression aswell? Not sure. Well, you get my point. Every mistake that u make, can cost you the game and therefore (normally) leads to a bad tournament result. I think that's one of the reason's Tempo Threshold not Tier 1 anymore. There aren't (good) enough players, playing it. Especially when you compare it with Vengevival/Merfolk/Goblins or anything else.

Ben is Firstshot
But you do realize that while ponder sees more card, preordain allows you get rid of the bad cards. If you ponder and find only one card you like, you are stuck with 2 bad cards, but if you preordain you can potentially draw into something good.
Also, that kind of player you are describing is Ben.

[Cenarius]

@ lorddotm

And u are, Mr. Friendly guy?
"Ben Wienburg is one of the best players that plays legacy. He has a reason he's playing Preordain over Ponder."
Don't you think I have reasons for playing Ponder over Preordain? Thanks for asking.

@ Ssbm Rocks1

U probably mean: Ben is shotgun. It's a joke.....

I'm sorry I offended you guys for not knowing Ben Wienburg. I tend to play my own game.
I still would like an answer to my first question.
Does Ben Wienburg have an account here? If so, what is his name on Thesource?

About the deck (since it's a deck discussion thread):
Disfigure's are OK for me. I need more testing to be absolutely sure about this.

[Nessaja]

There aren't (good) enough players, playing it. Especially when you compare it with Vengevival/Merfolk/Goblins or anything else.

That's interesting, did the Canadian Thresh players all get abducted, dissapear by magic or were they transformed into faeries?
Seriously, it's also an option to acknowledge that TT isn't as well positioned in the metagame as it used to be instead of resorting to fallacies.

[Shimster]

How is he supposed to know about this player?
Ben did an interview with Star City Games some time ago, which you should've read as a Canadian Thresh player.

Regarding the discussion, Preordain is on par with Ponder. As far as I can speak from my own experience, Ponder is better at finding a particular kind of card (eg Force or lands), whereas Preordain is way better mid to lategame, as you don't need a fetchland to abuse it.

I play 1 Preordain and 1 Trygon Predator in the flexible slots, but could imagine swaping the two cantrips.

[Cthuloo]

Hey,

what is your game plan against tribal decks like Goblins or Merfolk? Is it just more removal post board, four copies of Engineered Plage in the SB, Hydroblast against the Goblins, Darkblast as recurring removal, Pithing Needle for their Vial, Firespout like David Lopez did in the Eternal Weekend 2010, or ...?

For the Goblins MU the Plague would be the best in my opinion, but with all those lords it could be too slow against Merfolk. What do you think is the best way to beat them?

As you can see from my list, I'm playing Plague. I've always found it to be the best anti-tribal card. Vs Goblin it is often sufficient to stick one to win the game. Even if they have ways to circumvent it, they start to have a lot of dead draws (basically, all x/1 gobbos except for matron, plus siege gang) and this give you time to find the second one or simply win.

Against Merfolk is not directly gg, but it helps slowing down their clock a lot, and lets you keep your removal for the most important targets. In addition, if you manage to stick it before they have a lord down (or you manage to remove the lord thereafter) it gives them 8 basically dead draws (ok, adept still cantrips, but it becomes really subpar). Again, this gives you time to find the second plague, accumulate enough advantage with a Confidant, or simply win.

Pithing needle can also be quite good, in particular vs merfolk (vial, mutavault, commander), It is also a good meta choice in general at the moment, hitting survival, planeswalker, manlands, deed, top, etc.

I haven't tested the 'nought plan at the moment, though. Many people are definitely enthusiastic about it, so it deserves some consideration, too.

[Cthuloo]

Yesterday I managed to get some more testing with the deck. This is what I played:

//Protection\Disruption:
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Ghastly Demise
2 Smother


//Cantrips:
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

//Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Moongoose

//Lands:
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland


I tested against an UW Tempo variant, Baneslayer Control and an Uwr Walker Control variant. Basically a lot of control, which is fine, since it allowed me to focus on improving my playstyle against the archetype.

I am definitely impressed by the amazing solidity of the deck, I even managed to win a game against the UW Tempo from a mulligan to 4 of Waste, Waste, Fetch, Fetch drawing incredibly off the top, and in general I was always able to achieve the right mix of mana, threats and control.
I was mostly impressed by my games against the Walker Control. Despite having something like 9 dead cards in the maindeck (6xremoval + 3xspell snare) I almost always managed to win the relevant counterwars and ride a moongoose or goyf to victory (I only lost one game where my opponent managed to land a Jace, protect it, and accumulate insane CA).
I am definitely satisfied by my maindeck now, and still have to tune my sideboard. Some number of Pithing Needle should probably find their way in, since the games I lost were from jitte, planeswalkers and Baneslayer control playing maindeck relic of progenitus.

Possible sideboard:

3 Extirpate
2 Yixlid Jailer
3 Engineered Plague
3 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
2 Mind Harness

[Cenarius]

Finally, Pithing Needle gets some recognition (in my sideboard) aswell. It's probably one of the strongest cards in my sideboard, nearly as good as my other artifact (Phyrexian Dreadnought).
I believe Pithing Needle is a must in any sideboard, to be honest. The card can win games against Random.decks that need an activation of an artifact or creature (Tradewind Rider F.E.). The card gives answers to Belcher, Sensei´s Divining Top, Engineered Explosvies, Planeswalkers, Deed, EE. The list goes on and on.
I really believe it should be an auto-include in any sideboard in any metagame. Well not any metagame if your metagame looks like this: Zoo, Tempo Threshold, Ichorid and Staxx or any other deck that isn't harmed by Pithing Needle.

@ Cthuloo
Why do you prefer to go +1 land, -1 Ponder?
Furthermore,
I wouldn't play Bayou for the reason that you can get OH (openinghands) with Bayou and Wasteland with an hand full of blue spells. I personally would not risk this, because having a mulligan can be really bad for the deck.

About mulligans to 4 and winning games. I did multiple, though I normally just loose.
I had a game where I mulliganed to 4, against Eva Green. I was on the draw, my opponent Thoughtseize'd me. So I was stuck with 3 cards in my hand by then and still won the game. I had a (lucky) turn 2, Dark Confidant and another Dark Conifdant at turn 3. It just shows how strong the card is.

@ Nessaja

I have to disagree with you that Tempo Threshold isn't as well positioned in the metagame as it used to be. I believe my results prove you wrong, I believe that the last results (known) with the deck by other players prove you wrong.
The difference is the appearance in tournaments. Whereas Merfolk/Goblin have 7/8 players at a regular 45 player tournaments, usually resulting in 1/2 top8 places for the deck. Tempo Threshold will only have 2/3 players max. I'm not even talking about whether these players can actually play the deck in a correct way.

@ Ssbm Rocks1

I thought u were joking, thanks for the information.

Some other things.

By the way, if you win a game with a mulligan to 4/5. Try to use it in your advantage. Try to crack them mentally (this is no joke) by repeating it over and over again. It doesn't matter what their OH is, or what your OH is. You basically won game 2 already by doing it.
Another way to win games is by mentioning that your opponent made a mistake the previous turn or even in the first turn. Asking him why he did it, and what he learned by it. Your opponent will get uncomfortable, meaning that they will make more mistakes in the future (they are not sure about themselves anymore).
When I play Tempo Threshold I tend to play very concentrated with zero emotions, or atleast I try. It is hard for them to get a read from me. I can send false informations, by bluffing a Stifle. For example: Grabbing your land, tapping it, untap it (n your hand). Think for 5 seconds. Smile at your opponent (not necessary), and pass the turn. Preferably with a Tropical Island ofcourse. This is a situation where I already have a Nimble Mongoose on the table, ofcourse.
I'm not sure if this wins games, but my creatures tend to be on their half of the table. I'm sitting usually upright, bowed towards them. This usually works when I play against inexperienced opponents.

You not only win games because a deck is strong or because you have insane topdecks. You can also win games by the way you're playing the deck or playing magic (in general).

My next post will be about Engineered Plague.

[Lorgalis]

I'm contemplating making this deck.

However, I have a question: how does this deck fare against graveyard hate? I mean, you run:

- Ghastly demise --> does nothing after a Crypt or a Relic
- Nimble Mongoose --> pretty underwhelming after a Crypt or a Relic
- Tarmogoyf --> Relic hurts it quite a bit, Crypt not so much

All in all, it seems that graveyard hate are a must counter, right?

Also: how does this fare against Merfolk? is the matchup winnable preboard? (because I'm guessing that those E-Plagues in the side, with counter backup, will work nicely on them).

[Dark Ritual]

You cast ghastly demise in response to activations of relic/crypt blowing up but crypt is terrible against this deck relic is quite good because it can tap to remove a card and not fire immediately but you can always hold stifle mana up in case they try to crack relic and draw a card you can make them do this by casting a tarmogoyf or a ghastly demise that they can't answer easily so they pop it and here's where stifle becomes a very useful card. Spell piercing a turn 1 relic is also an acceptable play but I wouldn't waste a FoW on it unless you absolutely need to if your hand is full of GY based cards or something or another or its lategame and both of you are in topdeck mode and you have a random FoW in your hand.

[Cthuloo]

@ Cthuloo
Why do you prefer to go +1 land, -1 Ponder?
Furthermore,
I wouldn't play Bayou for the reason that you can get OH (openinghands) with Bayou and Wasteland with an hand full of blue spells. I personally would not risk this, because having a mulligan can be really bad for the deck.

About mulligans to 4 and winning games. I did multiple, though I normally just loose.
I had a game where I mulliganed to 4, against Eva Green. I was on the draw, my opponent Thoughtseize'd me. So I was stuck with 3 cards in my hand by then and still won the game. I had a (lucky) turn 2, Dark Confidant and another Dark Conifdant at turn 3. It just shows how strong the card is.


Actually, I went -1 Ponder, -1 Spell Snare, +2 Spell Pierce. I like my counter suite right now, and never felt the need for the fourth Ponder. I was also used to play 4 BS + 3 Ponder in Ubr faeries and never regretted not having an extra cantrip.

Doing some back-of-an-envelop math, having Waste+Bayou and no blue sources should happen around 2% of the time, I think I can live with that. On the other hand I like the to be able to fetch a Bayou when I already have an U-Sea and a Trop, since then a single wasteland can't cut me off a color. As a nice bonus, it helps against Extirpate and Choke (two cards you always risk to run into, at least in my meta.

About mulligans: the mulligan to 4 was an extreme example, that's not going to happen very often, but still the deck responds well to an aggressive mulligan style. Dark Confidant is of course awesome.

@Lorgalis: as Dark Ritual pointed out, relic can be annoying if dropped the early game, since can shut our moongeese off Threshold. If they drop it lately, then it's a joke, since even if you can't stifle the second ability, you will refill your graveyard very quickly (and the same hold for crypt, of course). Like DR, I also think that it's a good idea to counter a relic only if landed t1 (though I may consider also forcing it, depending on what my opponent is playing ad what I have in hand). But, to be honest, if the best my opponent has to board against me are a couple of relics, I'll be more than happy with that.

[Lorgalis]

Thanks for the answers.

However, as roughly 1/4 of my meta is Merfolk, would you reccomend BUG? Or is that matchup too difficult?

[Cenarius]

It totally depends on the other 3/4 of your metagame, to be honest. How cheesy it may seem.

@ Cthuloo,

I was referring to my list in comparison with yours.
I would never cut a ponder in the mainboard for a land, no matter what.

No time to write a post about Engineered Plague yet, but it will come.

[Shimster]

[...], as roughly 1/4 of my meta is Merfolk
A metagame with a high abundance of Merfolk usually implies a lot of control and combo on the one hand and few dedicated aggro decks on the other hand.

While classic Tempo Thresh lists (ie Canadian Thresh) have got a fair percentage against both control and combo, black splash lists are naturally favoured because of cards like Dark Confidant, Thoughtseize and Yixlid Jailer.

It still holds true that both decks play out pretty even, while the red splash eases the dedicated aggro matchup significantly. Even though you are splashing black, I do not think that running Engineered Plagues is the right call in a Merfolk infested metagame. Most lists run at least 12 lord effects, thus mitigating your chances a lot to hurt them with it.

[Jonathan Alexander]

A metagame with a high abundance of Merfolk usually implies a lot of control and combo on the one hand and few dedicated aggro decks on the other hand.

While classic Tempo Thresh lists (ie Canadian Thresh) have got a fair percentage against both control and combo, black splash lists are naturally favoured because of cards like Dark Confidant, Thoughtseize and Yixlid Jailer.

It still holds true that both decks play out pretty even, while the red splash eases the dedicated aggro matchup significantly. Even though you are splashing black, I do not think that running Engineered Plagues is the right call in a Merfolk infested metagame. Most lists run at least 12 lord effects, thus mitigating your chances a lot to hurt them with it.

I think the BUG list would be slightly better in such a metagame, mostly because of Dark Confidant. He's pretty much awesome against combo and control and even in the tempo-mirror he tends to play an important role. By the way, I agree on Engineered Plague not being that good anymore against Merfolk. When they were running less lords, it was quite okay, but now it's worse than additional spotremoval. I think Disfigure is a pretty good call since it also helps a lot against other aggro like Goblins and sometimes Zoo, though I have to admit that I'd rather run Plagues in a Goblin-heavy metagame. Anyway, a few people here seem to have very good results with Phyrexian Dreadnought from the board, which seems reasonable aswell. The last card that's important to mention here is Engineered Explosives. Seriously, I love the card, I always did. It serves so many roles and helps in a lot of matchups.
Personally, I'd either run Disfigure or Engineered Explosives, I don't like Dreadnought that much, but I think this is a matter of playstyle.

[Cenarius]

One of the reasons I'm not playing Engineered Plague is because most Goblin players tend to play 4 Goblin Chieftain (MD) and some Boartusk Liege's (SB) over here, which is the correct build (IMO). But that's for another topic.
-Merfolk tend to play 12/16 lord builds, so Engineered Plague gets shut off there aswell.
With all those lord effects, Plague just becomes a sub-optimal answer against both Goblins and Merfolk.

I'm not even mentioning that the casting cost is absolutely rediculous for this deck.-Want to put a rediculous comparison here, but can't think of one -

[Jonathan Alexander]

You're running Dreadnoughts, right? And did you finally test Disfigure a bit more?
I totally agree on Engineered Plauge here. If Goblins are running Chieftain (which they should, I agree here aswell) then Plague isn't good here anyway. They just can play through it and still generate ridiculous amounts of cardadvantage.
You're right about the casting cost, but sometimes you'll play Explosives for three aswell. It's more flexible though, but also slower.

[Cenarius]

I still disagree with you on the EE's, but I think there's a standstill there. We both gave our arguments.

I'm the one running Dreadnought's for quite a while now, Alan (on Thesource) gave me that idea.
I did test Disfigure in the sense that it was OK for me against Goblins. I did not miss Hydroblast, Disfigure's fulfilled their role just fine. And since I did not have any cards to board in against Merfolk except some Dreadnoughts and Pithing Needle's, there is no doubt that Disfigure is better than hydroblast in that matchup. I still did not test the card against Zoo. It might be good, but personally I think I have better cards to put in postboard (2 Mind harness, 1 Submerge).
Currently testing with Survival Zoo and Merfolk UW (with brainstorm, Plow SB) so I'm a bit tight at the testing (right now). However I do this on purpose, testing with the same deck over and over again (for the past 2 years, actively) is a bit dull after a while. Zoo and Merfolk tend to be less concentration-draining aswell, which is nice sometimes.
However, the Dutch Championship is coming soon, really soon. So I will be testing more (I think) in the near future against Vengevival, Zoo, TES (since my teammates want to test it probably).
If extirpate is lousy in the Vengevival matchup, it might disappear entirely from my 75cards. Although I have no idea what to put in, instead. So probably they'll just stick in my sideboard, just in case I happen to play against a lonely Dredge player.

[Dark Ritual]

Extirpate is the king of the vengevine survival MU especially the UG version which lack othe big beaters. For one black you shut off their entire deck basically and then they're left with some wild mongrel's, rootwalla's, trygon predators, and aquamoeba while you have goyf to block their entire team. Extirpate is decent against dredge as well since you hit all their bridges with it and they have to go with the ichorid/bloodghast beatdown plan and if they try to dread return a fatty you can typically spell pierce or FoW the DR.

Engineered plague is a really meh card and the cmc isn't helping either being a 3 mana sorcery speed card that doesn't do much due to lord effects in merfolk and goblins. The effect is really only good if you have multiple's but that might be too slow since the soonest you can give all creatures -2/-2 is on turn 4 the typical goldfish for a goblins deck and merfolk doesn't care due to its 12-16 lords.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Cenarius:
I think we can agree to disagree about Explosive. I definitely understand your reasoning, since it sometimes rather slow. Like I said, I think it's a matter of playstyle, none is strictly better. I also agree on Disfigure being versatile, which is great. Hydroblast is really only better at two things: countering Ringleader and countering Burning Wish. But I really don't think it's needed to fight off combo. What does your sideboard look right now?

I agree with Dark Ritual about Extirpate. The card is really good against Survival-builds, especially against U/G. U/G almost outright looses to it, at least as long as you have some kind of a clock and a somehow decent hand. Against G/W it takes an important part of their engine and slows them down about two turns. In a tempo deck it's sometimes just enough to slow down your opponent. Getting one or two more turns is good.
Anyway, I have to say something about Extirpate against Dredge. It's best to take their Ichorids with the first Extirpate. You can Stifle Narcomoeba. Without Ichorid and Narcomoeba they can do nothing but hardcasting stuff. But you have countermagic, Wastelands and relevant creatures. Builds with Bloodghasts are an entirely different story, they have more business and are better against hate in general. Extirpate is definitely worse against them, but multiples still get there. And sometimes they have bad dredges, which wins you games from time to time, though Bloodghast-Dredge usually has better dredges than other builds.

[Eventide]

Hi,

i'm new to this deck (UBG) and hope to get some help from you guys. I need your advice on how to Sideboard against Merfolk, Goblins and Zoo. I would board out the Confidants first, then FoWs against Zoo and Stifle against Merfolk. Is this correct?

This deck is much more difficult to play than it seems. But i think it will pay out soon...

[Cthuloo]

@Cenarius: from your list I only changed +1 Smother -1 Ponder. Smother can be more versatile than demise in some situations, and I wanted a second one. The land count is the same, only I use a 7 dual + 7 fetches configuration to your 6 + 8.

@Plague: Imho it is still the best against 'folks. Of course they're playing a lot of lord effects, but you have removal and counterspell to prevent them from landing 3 or 4 of them. In any case, if they have 3+ lords down, you are already dead, whatever your boarding plan is.
Plague is not an early game drop: I would rather spend the first turns countering Vials and Standstills and removing LoAs, while possibly putting down a creature of my own. You can't just ignore whatever your opponent is doing and hope Plague will solve all your problems. It will however give you a big advantage in the creature standoff that usually happens after the first onslaught. With a plague down, for their lords to at least trade with a moongoose, they need to have 3 of them. This usually provides enough advantage to grab the win.
Something is similar for Gobbos: you can't just let them do what they want only because you're holding plague. You should fight back the first few turns, and then drop a plague to mitigate the insane CA they will otherwise get. I am generally ok, if they use their matron (which is going to die under plague) to fetch for a chieftain instead of a ringleader, because now trading his creature for my removal on a 1-to-1 base makes sense, since he can't simply overwhelm me anymore with hordes of men.

I don't want to convince anyone of course. I just felt that it was worth to state my opinion for the completeness of the discussion.

[bowvamp]

Hey guys.
So, I got bored and decided to take a new approach to making Tempo work. It relies on Spreading Algae + Urborg, TOY to generate very efficient tempo.
4 Tarmogoyf
Basically the ultimate beater. Not much to say, except that Mongoose isn't big enough even though he is untargetable.
4 Dark Confidant
Really nice source of CA. Bob is also better than Mongoose in this deck because he can help find the piece of disruption/removal you're looking for and can also help complete our combo.
4 Disrupt
Definitely helps protect our beaters. I find it's better to run these than Mongeese simply because bigger beaters + protection > Self preservation. It can generate positive CA, and even if it doesn't, it fills the yard, and is a 1-for-1 trade Tempo wise.
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
I play Preordain over Ponder because it makes much more sense. With Preordain, you don't need an extra shuffle effect to take the second card you see, not to mention it puts them on the bottom of your library which makes it just that much more likely you won't draw exactly what you just sent away.
4 Daze
The choice was between Daze or Stifle as for what I wanted to switch out for Algae. I think that Daze is a lot less situational and Algae already provides tempo in the same line as Stifle.
4 Spreading Algae
Basically a 1-mana sinkhole. The only problem is they get 1 more mana out of it and it requires Urborg, TOY.
4 Ghastly Demise
The best 1 mana removal you can get in this deck imho. It not being able to target black creatures is solved by Soul Reap.
2 Soul Reap
This card is needed because most black cards can't take any black creatures. This is problematic with the likes of Tombstalker and Bob running around these days. Soul Reap also has the 3 damage advantage, but that's not really ever needed (it's a nice benefit though). GREEN CREATURES DO HAVE SOULS!!!
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
4 Spell Snare
Spell Snare is in over Pierce and Stifle because it is a lot less situational.

The reason I took a lot of cards that weren't situational over their slightly more powerful brethren was because I need the core to be as solid as possible so my EXTRA situational cards can shine.
I've proxied this, and so far this deck has been doing well for me, but I'd like your thoughts if possible.

[Dark Ritual]

So you're playing soul reap? Over smother? Oh how wrong that is; soul reap is terrible because it reads nongreen creature and smother reads *I KILL EVERY CARD IN THE FORMAT, PERIOD*. There's also the fact that smother is instant speed. The 3 damage is only worthwhile in rare corner cases where it actually becomes relevant but its hard to satisfy the requirements for the card.

Spreading algae is awful. Like honestly what do you think will happen to your urborg? It will get wasted, the algae will fall off and you will get 2 for 1'ed. Not to mention the card is sorcery speed. I also find it odd how you run algae over stifle essentially because your plan seems to be mana denial and stifle fits that plan very well I hear with all the fetches getting run in the format and stifle being versatile against a lot more than spreading algae ever could be. Stifle also pitches to fow while algae doesn't.

Disrupt? Seems like it should be spell pierce. It will rarely generate card advantage when your opponent knows you play the card. Spell pierce also hits PWs, counterbalance, top, and enchantments while disrupt only hits instants and sorceries. There's a reason no one plays disrupt. Even force spike beats the card because it can counter things on turn 1 like nacatl, lackey, vial, steppe lynx, etc. etc. and force spike is quite conditional if the mana denial plan doesn't get there unless you have a fow in hand to pitch the force spike to.

[bowvamp]

Umm yeah, I am running Soul Reap. *I KILL EVERY CARD IN THE FORMAT, PERIOD*:
a) sounds like you're yelling at me
b) is false. With Smother, you miss Tombstalker, Gatekeeper, Sower, etc etc. it's not like every creature in the format is < 4cc.
The advantages for running Soul Reap are mostly synergy based in that it kills every non-BG creature in the format (everything but Putrid Leach?) with the help of Ghastly Demise.

Umm, spreading algae doesn't 2 for 1 me because it goes back to my hand if they waste Urborg. I'm not playing stifle because I wanted to try out a 1 mana sinkhole instead. I don't get what's wrong here... my plan is mana denial? If I'm not mistaken, I believe my plan is... Tempo? Also, what do you think happens every turn they don't have a wasteland out. That's right, I gain tempo because they'll be afraid of tapping their land. I understand the arguments for instant speed and pitching to FOW, but my deck sacrifices 4 win-con slots for blue cards anyways. If they do waste my Urborg, their wasteland keeps them at low mana for longer and therefore allows my dazes and disrupts to work for longer.

Disrupt is good because anything that it doesn't hit T1 gets taken care of by my removal (artifacts and enchantments being the exception). Card advantage is only part of the deal. The main point is that it'll never be a wasted card because it's a 1-for-1 trade in tempo that pitches to FoW and is a cantrip. When your opponent can pay the extra two mana for something you want to spell pierce, spell pierce is no longer of value. But paying the 1 mana just lets me cycle into more relevant cards.

Overall, I understand the inherent disadvantages for losing instant speed on a lot of my cards, but overall it's been working pretty well for me.

[Dark Ritual]

All builds of tempo thresh focus on mana denial so if your opponent is casting something with cmc 4 or greater chances are you're losing. This is why smother is amazing; the creatures your opponent is casting are likely cmc 3 or lower so they are in smother range. Tombstalker is the one exception and that can eat a FoW or daze even works well sometimes.

I suggest you use sinkhole in place of spreading algae; urborg, tomb of yawgmoth is subpar and the legend rule is too big a drawback IMHO. Or blight since it does the same thing. But that's leading towards team america territory since both UGB tempo thresh and team america are very similar with a few different card choices.

And by gatekeeper I'm better you mean abyssal persecutor. Gatekeeper of malakir is outclassed by every creature in this deck in terms of P/T save confidant and its only relevant if you have one creature out when they kick it especially if that creature is a mongoose so it can't dodge the edict effect. But spell snare hits gatekeeper so I'm not the most worried about the card not to mention it sees little to no play in my metagame.

I can see disrupt being amazing on the play sometimes when the opponent tries to EoT brainstorm maybe digging for land and you disrupt it 0 for 1'ing them. Same with ponder or other cantrips but that requires you to be on the play since they'll play around disrupt games 2 and 3 or when they know about it. But at other times the card is just so meh.

[Nessaja]

@ Nessaja

I have to disagree with you that Tempo Threshold isn't as well positioned in the metagame as it used to be. I believe my results prove you wrong, I believe that the last results (known) with the deck by other players prove you wrong.
The difference is the appearance in tournaments. Whereas Merfolk/Goblin have 7/8 players at a regular 45 player tournaments, usually resulting in 1/2 top8 places for the deck. Tempo Threshold will only have 2/3 players max. I'm not even talking about whether these players can actually play the deck in a correct way.

Good god you're resorting to fallacies again.

What happened with all those TT players then? They used to be there, now they aren't. And according to you, they didn't change decks because they found decks that were better positioned in the metagame. So, you tell me, what changed?

[Eventide]

Hi,

i'm new to this deck (UBG) and hope to get some help from you guys. I need your advice on how to Sideboard against Merfolk, Goblins and Zoo. I would board out the Confidants first, then FoWs against Zoo and Stifle against Merfolk. Is this correct?

This deck is much more difficult to play than it seems. But i think it will pay out soon...

I find your discussion really interesting and don´t want to bother you, but i´m still looking for the best sideboard plan against those decks, can anyone help me?

[Oddball]

I just finished 10th at Grand Prix Bochum Legacy Side Event (180 participators), performing 6:2 with exactly the same NQG/b I've played at...well...the last 3 other events where I did 6:1 (/5:1). That' a total score of 23: 5: 0 (6:1,6:1,5:1 and 6:2).
Hell, this Deck is a beast as Germany, the Netherlands (and maybe Spain) have shown. I think now it's up to the United States to make the deck's way to the Decks to Beat forum! So come on guys!

[miko]

I just finished 10th at Grand Prix Bochum Legacy Side Event (180 participators), performing 5:2 with exactly the same NQG/b I've played at...well...the last 3 other events where I did 6:1 (/5:1). That' a total score of 23: 5: 0 (6:1,6:1,5:1 and 6:2).
Hell, this Deck is a beast as Germany, the Netherlands (and maybe Spain) have shown. I think now it's up to the United States to make the deck's way to the Decks to Beat forum! So come on guys!

Could you post your list and tell us something about the event? What did you lose against, what were your wins like? etc.
Any changes to the deck, ...
I'm just curious because your list seems to be quite different to Cenarius' one.

[Blitzbold]

Nice finish, well done!

I loved playing Can Thresh until some point in January this year. I experimented with some other decks in the meanwhile and currently am playing NLT, which I like a lot. There are only one nuisances with that deck, namely getting starting hands with 2 lands, both of which are colorless.

With both Vengevival and GW Survival on a steady rise I'd really like to have access to Perish/Hibernation as well as Extirpate out of the board. Maybe going back to a pure tempo deck is the way to go for me, but I fear that I might be missing the Bolts (Lightning~ and Forked~) a well as Firespouts + Blasts out of NLT's board. How do you manage Goblins and Merfolk without good sweepers?



EDIT #1: typos

EDIT #2:
@ miko
I think it's this one: http://www.deckcheck.org/?x=8QRflGWV2M4iF31hlGRfiaN475y8q6

EDIT #3:
2 cards I really loved in Canadian and NLT were Vendilion Clique and Rushing River. When talking to Tobias, who won the sideevent at GP: Bochum with Bant Survival, he pointed out how powerful Clique was all day long. So I wonder whether there might be some space for one or two of them? Oddly enough, the only creature slot I can imagine for it would be Tarmogoyf's... I don't want to kill a sacred cow, take this a a kind of "thinking aloud", but I know the power of Nimble Mongoose and Confidant, and I'd definitely want four of each in here.

[Cenarius]

First,

Congratulations with your result.


Could you post your list and tell us something about the event? What did you lose against, what were your wins like? etc.
Any changes to the deck, ...
I'm just curious because your list seems to be quite different to Cenarius' one.

There are just some different card choices. We play a different removal-suite (mainboard).
He plays Hydroblast where I play Dreadnought and he plays Krosan Grip where I play Pithing Needle (sideboard).

About Goblins and Merfolk:
Dark Confidant is your man, here. He'll win you the games, whatever sideboard you play.
I play Phyrexian Dreadnought (sideboard) to avoid the lategame. Especially Goblins becomes weird after turn 4/5 with little to no pressure.
I won several games and therefore several matches due to Phyrexian Dreadnought.

[Henrik]

I just finished 10th at Grand Prix Bochum Legacy Side Event (180 participators), performing 5:2 with exactly the same NQG/b I've played at...well...the last 3 other events where I did 6:1 (/5:1). That' a total score of 23: 5: 0 (6:1,6:1,5:1 and 6:2).
Hell, this Deck is a beast as Germany, the Netherlands (and maybe Spain) have shown. I think now it's up to the United States to make the deck's way to the Decks to Beat forum! So come on guys!

Nice!
I'd love to read a report, with full SB in/out for the matches.
If you have the energy and time, that is.

[EnduringVisionary]

I'd love to read a report, with full SB in/out for the matches.
If you have the energy and time, that is.


I assume he has neither time nor energy.


So, is it just me or is UGb becoming superior to UGr, personally I love lightning bolt with all my heart and refuse to give it up without a fight... so what is giving black so much of an advantage? and how do we bring this to red?

edit: honestly did not know that was my first post =\ now i just feel like a big lurker.

[Cthuloo]

what is giving black so much of an advantage?



Two things:

- Better removal

- Dark confidant

I don't think there's a way how to bring these qualities to the UGR version.


Edit:


About Goblins and Merfolk:
Dark Confidant is your man, here. He'll win you the games, whatever sideboard you play.
I play Phyrexian Dreadnought (sideboard) to avoid the lategame. Especially Goblins becomes weird after turn 4/5 with little to no pressure.
I won several games and therefore several matches due to Phyrexian Dreadnought.

What do you side out vs Goblins? I guess you want to bring in 6 cards (3 nought and 3 needles), so you need to take out 6. I guess the spell snares can go without much thinking, then the pierces should probably follow. Then? A FoW? A Daze?

[Iron Buddha]

For a long time, red was regarded as superior to black. Why the change now?

[Blitzbold]

For a long time, red was regarded as superior to black. Why the change now?

Lightning Bolt ususally doesn't kill modern creatures like Knight of the Reliquary. Smother does. Additionally, and this is far more important, Dark Confidant enables the deck to keep up the pressure.

[Dark Ritual]

UGr has no way of producing CA while black does in the form of dark confidant. Also the removal in red doesn't kill every creature now while smother kills everything in the format pretty much and ghastly demise kills a lot of stuff too. Red can get there in the hands of a very skilled pilot though like Ben Wienburg.

[Anarky87]

The one thing I'm curious about is the Disfigure in the SB. How well has that worked out? Is it more removal to bring in against Zoo or like a Lord killer against Merfolk? I haven't tested it yet (I don't currently own any atm), but was interested to hear about its results from people who have.

Edit: Also, grats on your finish, Oddball.

[Blitzbold]

I played Dark Thresh in our local tournament to a solid 4-1 performance yesterday. My list was deviated from BUG Threshold (http://www.deckcheck.org/?x=8QRflGWV2M4iF31hlGRfiavdy8k9c7) by David López, played at the Eternal Weekend Madrid 10/10/2010.

I changed some slots around and adjusted the sideboard and went with these 75:


Dark Thresh

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Rushing River

2 Diabolic Edict
1 Smother
1 Disfigure
1 Ghastly Demise

3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island
4 Wasteland
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard:
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Firespout
1 Krosan Grip
1 Trygon Predator
2 Spell Pierce
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Extirpate
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Volcanic Island


Overview of my matches:

1) Ubw Merfolk (Perish + StP out of the board)
We trade massive resource denial for some rounds, but I am able to recover better thanks to my cantrips. Clique shows he has nothing left, Disfigure takes care of a Reejery and Clique + Goyf seal the deal. I manage to stick a Confidant in the second one and a threshed Mongoose gets there.

Boarding (if I remember right):
in: 2 REB, 2 Firespout, EE, Needle, Volcanic; out: 3 Daze, 1 Spell Snare, 1 Stifle, 1 Scalding Tarn

1-0 / 2:0 in games


2) Quinn
I loose the first one after he sticks both Humility and Moat, both of which he is able to cast after chanting me. Some turns later Sacred Mesa shows up and we go to the second game. The second one is narrow, but I manage to stick a Clique and ride her to victory. Additionally, I kept my Edicts for killing Eternal Dragons... but they kill Peacekeepers as well! The third one is decided by Confidant plus Clique (again) all the while countering important stuff or destroying the permanents of him I intentionally let through because of the removal I held. He was a bit mana-light in this one, so that even Wasteland mattered here (-> Scrying Sheets).

Boarding:
in: 2 Pierce, Grip, Predator, EE, Needle, Extirpate; out: 2 Daze, 1 Spell Snare, 1 Stifle, 1 Smother, 1 Disfigure, 1 Demise

2-0 / 4:1


3) Bant CB/Top
It's against a friend of mine, and we helped each other tune our decks the evening before. CB/Top is a matchup I don't have good experience with back from the days when I played Can Thresh. I offer ID + price splits, but he declines it. According to the rule that one should loose when dismissing such an offer, I beat him in two quick ones.

Boarding:
in: 2 REB, 2 Pierce, Grip, Predator, Needle, Volcanic; out: 3 Daze, 1 Snare, 1 Goyf, 1 Stifle, 1 Ponder, 1 Scalding Tarn


3-0 / 6:1


4) URw Ascension combo (Ascencions, Bolts, Groove + P. Fire, FoW, Pierce, StP, Cantrips)
In the first game I manage to stick a quick Clique, but which is burned two turns later. I disrupt his mana a bit until he starts fetching for basics, counter an Ascension and ride Goyf to victory. I am holding additional creatures but don't want to show him too much of my deck... which pays out in the second one, as multiple threshed Mongeese kill him quickly. Jace can't bounce them and he left his EE in the board. Using my lone Grip on his Ascension also helps for sure.

Boarding:
in: 2 REB, 2 Pierce, Grip, Predator, EE, Volcanic; out: 1 Snare, 3 Daze, 1 Disfigure, 1 Smother, 1 Demise, 1 Scalding Tarn

4-0 / 8:1

5) GW SurVine
His decks shows why I consider it one of the best in he current metagame by now. He aplies early pressure with Pridemage and Goyf and seals the deal after I am unable to counter Survival. I punted a bit in this game because I tapped out for Clique in his end of draw instead of his endstep. I have to mulligan twice (mulligan #3 and #4 the whole day) in the second game, but am quickly into it thanks to cantrips, some removal and the general tempo plan. It wasn't enough in the end, though.

Boarding:
in: 2 Spout, Grip, Predator, Jailer, Extirpate, Crypt, Needle, Volcanic; out: 2 Daze, 1 Stifle, 1 Ponder, 1 Mongoose, 1 Scalding Tarn, 3 ?

4-1 / 8:3


Thoughts / comments
-> Contrary to a previous post I think that the Mongeese, while still very good, aren't an automatic 4-of anymore
-> Clique again was one of the best cards troughout the day. I definately want the second one in here. 14 creatures feels too many, though... so actually I might cut one of the Mongeese.
-> Rushing River was very good as well, providing an instant speed 'catch all' answer. I like it for it's relative speed (compared to EE or Maelstrom Pulse for example) as well as providing an out to problematic permanents even under moon effects (basic Island assumed).
-> The red cards in the board where nice to have, but not a necessity. In hindsight, other b/u/g cards might provide comparable effects. Additionally, I usually hate lands in my board (short of Islands in Vintage, but thats a different beast). Possible replacements are +1 Pierce, +1 Grip, +1 Extirpate (other gravehate?), +2 spot removal or sweepers.

[Cenarius]

Ok guys, I got another primer.

We had our Dutch Legacy Championships (207 players) yesterday and another UGB TempoThreshold player (Dannis kampelmann) went top 8. He lost his Q-finals against 43-lands, which isn't a shame. I'm not sure if he's on Thesource, hopefully he is. If he isn't, it's still worth mentioning.

It was a pity that I couldn't go, I was ill...

[practical joke]

Ok guys, I got another primer.

We had our Dutch Legacy Championships (207 players) yesterday and another UGB TempoThreshold player (Dannis kampelmann) went top 8. He lost his Q-finals against 43-lands, which isn't a shame. I'm not sure if he's on Thesource, hopefully he is. If he isn't, it's still worth mentioning.

It was a pity that I couldn't go, I was ill...

A Hangover isn't an illness!!!

anyways, shame you weren't there.
I've seen a few Dark Tempo players around that day.

[Oddball]

Ok guys, I got another primer.

We had our Dutch Legacy Championships (207 players) yesterday and another UGB TempoThreshold player (Dannis kampelmann) went top 8. He lost his Q-finals against 43-lands, which isn't a shame. I'm not sure if he's on Thesource, hopefully he is. If he isn't, it's still worth mentioning.

It was a pity that I couldn't go, I was ill...


Actually I'm Dennis, not Dannis!

I couldn't imagine to lose against that RG Valakut Deck but he has opened up G3 with T1 Foothills->Exploration, Foothills->Manabond, eot->Tabernacle, Maze, Wasteland and topdecked Loam in T2. Well and I wasn't able to get and Extirpate through my Confidant.....can happen.

I changed my Removal configuration from:
2 Smother
2 D. Edict
1 Demise

to

3 Demise
2 Edict

because I didn't knew what the Meta would look like, but I knew that you play 4 Demises and that you improved well with them in the Netherlands. I've tried to compensate their weakness against Knight of the Reliquary by adding Deathmark to the Sb. That was the right decision, even if cutting Smother was wrong at all.

In retrospective I should have played 2 Extirpate Maindeck in the Explosives/Spell Pierce Slot as I did in 2007 when Dredge was hyped as hell.

[Cenarius]

Now I even wish more that I could have gone. Anyway, congratz on yet another good finish. What were your matchups? Did you play your identical list? How did you sideboard? Do you want to write a report, maybe?

@ Practical Joke/Robbin

I was ill, I did not have an hangover. Hangovers are a piece of cake, although there were (apparently) queue's for the bathroom due to the attendance.

[Anarky87]

Actually I'm Dennis, not Dannis!

I couldn't imagine to lose against that RG Valakut Deck but he has opened up G3 with T1 Foothills->Exploration, Foothills->Manabond, eot->Tabernacle, Maze, Wasteland and topdecked Loam in T2. Well and I wasn't able to get and Extirpate through my Confidant.....can happen.

I changed my Removal configuration from:
2 Smother
2 D. Edict
1 Demise

to

3 Demise
2 Edict

because I didn't knew what the Meta would look like, but I knew that you play 4 Demises and that you improved well with them in the Netherlands. I've tried to compensate their weakness against Knight of the Reliquary by adding Deathmark to the Sb. That was the right decision, even if cutting Smother was wrong at all.

In retrospective I should have played 2 Extirpate Maindeck in the Explosives/Spell Pierce Slot as I did in 2007 when Dredge was hyped as hell.

There have been a couple people in my area to pick up Survival and I, too, changed some slots to include 2 MD Extirpates. They've been awesome in testing and games, dealing with Vengevines, removing Trops/critters against other Thresh decks or decks with low creature counts, etc. I've been running a removal package of 3 Demise and 2 Smothers and it has been working pretty well. I might switch to your config as someone mentioned they had a Loyal Retainer on the way.

As far as people still playing the red splash, I'm running the 9 creature set up with Clique and I've been trying out 2 Needle in the flex spots. Originally it was 1 Echoing Truth (to bounce Vengevines or troublesome perms) and 1 Needle, but then I decided to up it to 2 needle.

Congrats on the finish yet again. Seems Survival isn't stopping any Thresh players in Europe. Which is refreshing to see. Keep up the great work.

[Oddball]

Seems Survival isn't stopping any Thresh players in Europe. Which is refreshing to see. Keep up the great work.

My current tournament score in rounds from september till today with this Deck is 6:1,6:1,5:1,6:2,6:1 :1.
That's a total of 29 : 6 : 1 and 4 of the 6 losses were against Survival
(as far as I remember I ve played a total of 8 rounds against UG Madness, GW Sur and Ooze Sur).
Most of the time I really had bad luck due to many many mulligans and that could have happend in any other matchup as well. Furthermore 8 rounds aren't very presentitive, so it's hard to get how important such a result really is.

[Shtchepahn]

Played at local Legacy event last Saturday with following decklist:

4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Vendillion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
3 Ghastly Demise
2 Smother

SB:
3 Extirpate
2 Yixlid Jailer
1 Spell Pierce
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ghastly Demise
3 Disfigure
3 Mind Harness

My result was 3:1:1 and 3rd place
2:0 vs GBw Survival (winner of the tournament)
2:1 vs Aluren
1:2 vs Dark Horizons
1:1 vs WG aggro
2:1 vs Storm Combo

[HARDEn]

Good job Dennis. Could you please post the whole decklist? :)

[ac3eb]

I've been testing this deck for a while now, and have been toying around with maindeck spell pierces for the most part. Has anyone else found that they are amazing? Their hard to fit into the maindeck, but I think cutting a nimble mongoose and a spell snare might be acceptable. While mongoose is good I don't know if it's a definite 4-of. Furthermore, with the more reliable black removal, spell snare isn't needed as a 4-of given that they will hit goyfs and other problematic creatures, while spell pierce hits other important 2 drops (i.e. counterbalance) that aren't creatures as well as tops, vials and removal, amongst others. Here's my current list that I'm quite happy with (granted it's not really that different from others):

4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Nimble Mongoose

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
2 Ghastly Demise
3 Smother
1 Diabolic Edict

SB:
2 Extirpate
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Spell Pierce
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ghastly Demise
2 Disfigure
3 Mind Harness
1 Polluted Delta

I'm running an additional maindeck removal spell as I'm expecting merfolk, zoo and goblins to be rampant, though the edict will probably become a 3rd ghastly demise, I haven't been too happy with it. 8 duals and 6 fetches can obviously be any combination depending on the meta.

[practical joke]

I've picked up this deck for a tournament,
even though I went 3-2-1 with it, it definately should've been more, lovely deck to play with.

Round 1: Goblins
G1: He plays first, and I never get into the game offensively and I couldn't take down his endless rain of goblins
G2: dreadnought stifle
G3: dreadnought with a whole lot more stifles ftw

Round 2: The Rock
G1: mull to 5, I somehow manage to keep him to a 3 mana minimum with 2 unlucky basics, but he has a SDT. I have 2 nonbasics and my hand is empty. I draw into dark confidan, he tops and vindicates, I draw into goyf, he double waste my lands. I draw wasteland and destroy his one non-basic. The solitary goyf gets there since he draws into 3-mana stuff and discard.
G2: he wins on a kotr while I cóuldn't find an answer.
G3: I have realy tempo-hand, he opens double waste again, this time I couldn't care much. I beat him to death T4, and he never drew into a second color-land.

Round 3: ID against a friend and teammate playing canadian *****

Round 4: Ooze-combo
G1: I deny him his mana and his combo spells, and easily win after that
G2: extirpate wins the game with reanimate on the stack.

Round 5: Dredge
G1: I somehow managed to win this game by beating him with double goyf after taking out his bridges with a sacrificial mongoose.
G2: He plays a discard unit, discards a troll which I extirpate, he sadly has a second dredger and he kills me T3, risk taken
G3: I drop a confidant, which sticks for a few turns. I ned up with 5 creatures, 1 stifle and 8 lands. sad game

Round 6: Goblins
G1: I lose this one fairly easy, I drew a whole lot of blanks
G2: I win this easily with dreadnought stifle and some stifles
G3: I drew removal and land. That's not going to be enough by a long shot.

So I lost 2 games by drawing into an exceptionally huge ammount of land (last game I saw 11 lands, from a few fetched and it only lasted 6 turns)
The deck itself performs greatly, and I loved it :)

[Cenarius]

So I decided to play something completely different. I decided to play Canadian Threshold. [Whispering by a choir: Wow, what a difference]

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique (Resolved once, disappointment (swap for Spell Pierce if I ever play red again))

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Fire/Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

4 Ponder

1 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard

4 Pyroclasm (boarded in against TES)
4 Submerge (3 is clearly enough)
2 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt (never boarded in)
2 Spell Pierce (pretty good all day long)

I played the deck, because I didn't want to borrow a Phyrexian Dreadnought from someone I didn't know.

46 players, 6 rounds.

Round 1: WB Agro
G1: My opponent plays SFM and gets Sword of Fire/Ice. In his drawstep I clique the sword away (revealing two removal and 2 random cards), he then path's my clique. In my turn I play Tarmogoyf, in his turn he plays vindicate that I force. In my turn I draw Tarmogoyf and the game is over.
G2: My opponent starts with leyline, Badang! He never gets creatures on the table and my two Nimble Mongoose slowly kill my opponent.

1-0

Round 2: Burn
G1: First I want to tell you that I never went below 15 lifes (3 fetch, 1 volcanic fallout).My opponent has 4 mountains and a suspended Rift Bolt. I got a 4/5 Tarmogoyf. He targets the Tarmogoyf with Rift bolt, he then plays Flamebreak. I Force the Flamebreak. He then sacs 2 tapped mountains for a Fireblast on my Tarmogoyf. I respond with Brainstorm, knewing that this Tarmogoyf would win me the game or when it gets destroyed I would probably lose. So either the Brainstorm had to show creatures or counters. It did neither just the random Fire/ice, Stifle and land. I knew my opponent wasn't really experienced, so I had to try something. After the Brainstorm I Ice'd (Fire/Ice) his untapped mountain. He didn't tap for mana and I daze'd his Fireblast, winning the game.
G2: I end with 8 lifes and 1 Nimble Mongoose, 1 Tarmogoyf and 1 Vendilion Clique on the table that kill my opponent. He had 2 Relic activations, but no Volcanic Fallout. Lucky me. I picked up enough counters after the second Relic (ofcourse) for Flamebreak.

2-0

Round 3: Dark Tempo Threshold
We ID, see above. Scouting + Relaxing for 60 minutes + eating + not playing against a friend and teammate > random win by topdecks. We play out one game, I win ofcourse (topdecking Tarmogoyf, Tarmogoyf, Nimble Mongoose while we were both in topdeckmode).

2-0-1

Round 4: Zoo (Semi-finalist)
I heard he needed Sulfuric Vortex, but he didn't put them in his sideboard for this tournament. So naturally I put him on Burn, tends out to be Zoo.
Win the Dice-roll.
G1: He mulligans to 6. I play Fetch, he plays fetch (mesa). Tries to fetch, I stifle. I play Nimble Mongoose. Next turn I play Tarmogoyf. After a while he resolves a Sylvan Library (while he was way behind, had counters for it). I end up having 18 lifes, 1 fetch, 1 force.
G2: Extremely long game, it goes back and forth. I topdeck a Fire/ice for his 2 Grim Lavamancers, while I was in trouble. I submerge 2x a Qasali Pridemage with a fetch on the stack (not in the same turn). I stabilize on 3 lifes, starting to beat him from 18 to 5. He had three cards in his hand, I had a Force and Stifle. I colourscrewed him earlier in the game, leaving him with 0 Taiga. He gets the fetch and he tries to fetch. He was a pretty good player, so I somehow thought that he was slowrolling a Burn (he tells me he did). So I let the fetch resolve and he plays Nacatl (1 card on hand), which I hardcast Force of Will (there goes my reasoning). He doesn't burn me, I topdeck Fire/ice and attack (5 lifes). He topdecks/plays Tarmogoyf, that I ice (Fire/Ice). Drawing blank, and for my turn drawing a blank. Had 6 outs. I pretty much punted here by letting him fetch. I was pretty scared by the possibility of him having burn, I was a chicken-shit. It could have cost me the match.
G3: He mulligans to 5 with 10 minutes on the clock. I start playing faster and faster knowing that I'm the only one with a possibility of winning the match. I get a relatively fast Nimble Mongoose and Tarmogoyf, yet remain to keep pressure on my opponent. He tries to double bolt my Tarmogoyf, in response I submerge my Tarmogoyf. Draw the Tarmogoyf, attack with Nimble Mongoose. Two turns after that he tries to make a double burn attempt again, but I force his second bolt (or something). He then scoops at 11 life and a 2 turn clock. Still had Fire/Ice and Submerge on hand.

3-0-1

Round 5: The Rock
G1: I win due to Nimble Mongoose and Tarmogoyf. He never gets a grip on the fight. I had a turn 1 stifle with a Wooded Foothills on the play.
G2: He starts with Mox diamond, swamp, Top. I force of will the top. I draw, play volcanic and go. He goes draw, go (sick!). He clearly needs three mana, which is fine by me. He tries to fetch about 3 turns later, which I stifle (ofcourse). After a while he topdecks Bayou, playing Vampire Nighthawk. I submerge the Vampire nighthawk and waste his bayou. Meanwhile I keep pressure on him with 1 Nimble and 2 Tarmogoyf (2 plows). At the end I had some pretty good topdecks. Though, he never really gets into the game due to that Force'd Sensei's Divining Top.

4-0-1

Round 6: Id in top 8

4-0-2

Top 8
I end up being 4th after the switch, my teammate and friend ends on 5th place. So we get paired to eachother, which is a bummer. Especially when the prices are top heavy (top 8 only receives a beer and 5 boosters).
He plays TES, which frankly was one of the best matchups I could have in the top 8 (Goblins; Zoo, UGR Tempo Threshold (me); Tes and Ichorid; Tempo Threshold, Eva Green; Countertop).
G1: I keep a relative good hand and after 2 duress/thoughtseize effects I'm still with 2 Stifle and 2 Daze. In my turn I topdeck brainstorm, brainstorm into crap. Fetch. Play ponder (1 mana left), see Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, Land. Pick up the Spell Snare. Then my opponent tries to go off with Infernal Tutor, I Spell Snare and win.
G2: I keep an amazing hand: 1 Fetch, 1 Nimble mongoose, 3 Force of will, 1 Spell Snare and 1 Daze. He starts, plays land and says go. I play Nimble and go. Then the game starts to punt. My opponent gets to play 7 lands with no business and an hand full of Rituals. After a few turns of beating, I get my second and third land and a Tarmogoyf. My opponents scoops.

5-0-2

The quarter finals between Zoo and Goblins went in Sudden Death. Zoo wins by topdecking plateau --> Chain lightning. Zoo mulliganned to 4, Goblins to 2 or 3 (he played bolt).

Top 4
I have to play against the Zoo player, but I don't want to play anymore (was 7 p.m. after a pretty long day).
So we split the 500 Euro's, gaining 125 euro's each. We each got a beer, which was nice.

[5-0-3 Result]
The end.

[Aceofspades]

Hi!

Do you still play Extirpate now? Though Survival´s gone i think it´s still better than other graveyard hate like Tormod´s Crypt.

And what about Submerge vs. Perish vs. Mind Harness? What do you guys prefer?

[Cenarius]

Depending entirely on the metagame I would still advise some sort of Graveyard hate. Dredge isn't a fairly good matchup, 43Lands and Loam decks (in general) have great targets for Extirpate.

My sideboard looks like this (currently):

2 Mind Harness
1 Submerge
2 Pithing Needle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Extirpate
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Disfigure

About Submerge vs. Perish vs. Mind Harness:

I would never ever play Perish.
Furthermore, I don't like the potential lifeloss of Submerge. 5 lifes is a chunk. Revealing Force of Will and Submerge in the following turn is half of your life total. In addition, Submerge is pretty much a Tempo card (ideal for Canadian Threshold since they run burn and therefore have a faster clock). The black splash already runs 'real' removal for Tarmogoyf, therefore Submerge isn't really needed. I'm playing one copy for Counterbalance.

Mind Harness is ok to godly. It has it's limitations (Counterbalance), but it can win games on it's own (while Submerge can't). I had several testgames against Zoo where I gained control over an 7/7 Knight of the Reliquary, which got double bolted and blocked by a Qasali Pridemage, because he was at 7. This means that I just 4 for 1'd the guy.

[ac3eb]

Why didn't he just sack the pridemage to destroy mind harness?

On that note, mind harness has been testing pretty well. It's definitely solid vs. zoo. On that note, has anyone tried playing engineered plague as a 3-4 of? I find that goblins and merfolk are quite the matchups and I'm guessing those are going to be fairly popular these days (particularly folk). Goblins is an impossible matchup (at least in my experience) without it, goblin ringleader is a beating.

[Oddball]

Why didn't he just sack the pridemage to destroy mind harness?

On that note, mind harness has been testing pretty well. It's definitely solid vs. zoo. On that note, has anyone tried playing engineered plague as a 3-4 of? I find that goblins and merfolk are quite the matchups and I'm guessing those are going to be fairly popular these days (particularly folk). Goblins is an impossible matchup (at least in my experience) without it, goblin ringleader is a beating.

You should be able to improve that matchup without any deckchanges.
My personal score in tournament games (not rounds!) from september to november is 16:3.
Maybe you should try to use mulligans more aggressive.

[Cenarius]

Why didn't he just sack the pridemage to destroy mind harness?

On that note, mind harness has been testing pretty well. It's definitely solid vs. zoo. On that note, has anyone tried playing engineered plague as a 3-4 of? I find that goblins and merfolk are quite the matchups and I'm guessing those are going to be fairly popular these days (particularly folk). Goblins is an impossible matchup (at least in my experience) without it, goblin ringleader is a beating.

You are perfectly right. I was certain about a game where I 4 for 1'd the Zoo player, but did not remember what creature he used for the action. Probably it was a Wild Nacatl.

Engineered Plague is not good in my opinion for costing 3 mana. I'm glad when I reach two mana, especially against Goblins and Merfolk (they're running Wasteland's (and sometimes Port's) aswell). Three mana is just too much for this deck.
Second, 12 lords negate the plagues easily.
Third, all my goblin players do tend to play good goblin lists with 4 Goblin Chieftain and some Boartusk Lieges negating Plague-effects aswell.

Goblins and Merfolk are pretty good matchups postboard when u board:

+3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
+3 Disfigure
+2 Pithing Needle

A fast Dark Confidant, a medium to fast Dreadnought or a couple of Tarmogoyf's is usually how games end in my favorite. If you want some extra advise, feel free to pm me.

I don't advise mulliganning aggresively, because I believe that nearly every hand can win games. Those hands do not include Wasteland and 6 spells or hands with 5 lands (even with brainstorm). Furthermore, I advise you playing neat during the entire game. Stay sharp. Use your brainstorms and Ponder's only when u have to use them. I almost never brainstorm in response of a spell unless I'm certain that countering the spell is vital for the gamestate. I never play EOT brainstorms, because that's just horrible.
Furthermore, I believe that Tempo Threshold is a deck that requires non-magic related skills aswell. The way you actually play the deck can give you advantages over your opponent. Let them fear your stifle, let them fear your endless counters. Let them fear Dark Confidant. I enjoy myself when I see the miserable faces of my opponents when just 2 spells resolve in an entire game. I also tend to look on faces when they draw cards (especially on openinghands). I can tell when people (usually the inexperienced or nervous players, yet even experienced players) want to mulligan or when they have shacky hands. I actually persuaded someone to mulligan somewhere in the last tournament, just because I saw some hesitation about his starting hand. He showed me this by using unintentionally nonverbal communication.
I'm pretty much concentrated during the whole match. I also tend to force my gamespeed during the entire match. According to a friend and teammate of mine, I'm playing rather slowly. Maybe that has to do with me thinking about what plays my opponent could have. About me thinking twice about my choices for Brainstorm and Ponder, even when I want to counter something. I try to see patterns in my starting hands, etc. Or maybe it has just something to do with me, as a person. Maybe it's even the combination.

The combination of all of this, and the fact that every matchup is nerve-racking, makes this deck incredibly fun to play.

[Oddball]

Well, you need to answere the lackey. So you wouldn't keep a hand without either Force, Mongoose, Ghastly Demise (or even Stifle+Goyf) or postboard disfigure/beb.

[Jim Higginbottom]

do you guys side out fow against zoo?

[Scordata]

@lebron jim
It depends on if I'm on the play or draw.
Against zoo on the draw, I would side out the dazes, but on the play I would side out the FOWs.
I just bring in more removal and watch them cry.

[Scordata]

Hey guys, new tournament report up here:

14th place at Jupiter Games, record was 5-2

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19799-Jupiter-Games-40-Duals-14th-Place-with-UGB-Thresh&p=516890

[Heresy]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=114443&d=1295617339

So?

[ac3eb]

Seems surprisingly good? Could replace diabolic edict/ smother in most lists. However, affinity is catching on somewhat lately, so those ravagers could be a problem?

[Scordata]

I was thinking about Go for The Throat, but I honestly think Smother is better.
Unless I'm mistaken, Smother misses Siege Gang commander and Goblin Ringleader, but hits Phyrexian Dreadnought and all the Affinity dudes.
I honestly don't know if its inclusion is worth the trade. Also smother says "Can't be regenerated." That might be relevant in some matchups.
I could be brain farting though, and not realize that there are a million playable non-artifact creatures with cmc > 3 in legacy...

[Dalton]

Don't forget Tombstalker and Sower of Temptation.
The good removal suite depends on your metagame IMHO.

[Cthuloo]

Don't forget Tombstalker and Sower of Temptation.
The good removal suite depends on your metagame IMHO.

If you're also playing ghastly demise alongside smother, the only relevant target that escapes your removal package is Tombstalker. I would choose GFTT only if you expect a huge amount of eva green and team america in your meta. In an unknown meta, I would still choose smother, since, should things go the wrong way, you can still try to race a stalker, but not a dreadnought.

[Cthuloo]

Upping the thread since I should finally take the deck to a tournament, and would like to hear some thoughts about the boarding plans and the sideboard in general. For reference, this is my maindeck (on which I am 99.99% sold):

//Protection\Disruption:
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Ghastly Demise
2 Smother


//Cantrips:
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

//Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Moongoose

//Lands:
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland


And this is the (tentative) sideboard:

3 Extirpate
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
1 Trygon Predator
1 Mind Harness
2 Submerge

My boarding plan for the most popular decks is roughly the following:
- Goblins: -2 Pierce -3 Snare -2 Daze +3 Dreadnought +3 Needle +1 Mind Harness
- Merfolk: on the draw: -4 Daze -2 Pierce +3 Dreadnought +3 Needle, on the play -4 Force -2 Pierce +3 Dreadnought +3 Needle (not really sure about what to side out, any help?)
- Dredge: -4 Demise -2 Smother +3 Dreadnougt +3 Etirpate
- ANT/TES: -3 Demise +3 Extirpate (do you think it's better to board out all removal to board in also the 'noughts? Faster clock vs. vulnerability to swarm and confidant)
- Countertop: depends on the version. Thopter: --4 Demise -2 Smother + 3 Needle +3 Extirpate, Bant: - 2 Demise, -2 Pierce, +2 Submerge, +2 Krosan Grip. 4C: not really sure, out can go some removal for grips, trygon and needles (?)
- Zoo: depends on the build. Mininal boarding - 2 Pierce -1 Confidant +2 Submerge +1 Mind harness. In some cases needles and/or grips can come in for the other confidants
- The Rock/Junk: here I'm not quite sure... I want to bring in Submerge and Mind Harness, plus possibly the needles, but don't know what to side out. Maybe ghastly demise? It looks rather weak vs goyf, knight and confidant. Any suggestion?

Any other deck you think I should prepare for? Any help is very appreciated!

[practical joke]

you are forgetting dredge.

Also smother beats the one thing I'm more affraid of than tombstalker and sower:


Phyrexian dreadnought!
lately we've been testing disfigure's and actually they do their job quite nicely against a lot of decks.

[Scordata]

Disfigure is awesome.
Why are you running a bayou? That's like canadian thresh running a taiga. It makes your dazes less good.
Team america runs a bayou because it needs double black. This deck does not.

First off, don't side out spell snares against goblins. Piledrivers and warren wierdings will wreck you.
3 pithing needles is too much. Dreadnaught is also lame here. Id opt for more removal.

Against merfolk, spell pierces are the nuts. Don't take em out. Again, here is another place where I would recommend disfigure over dreadnaught.

Extirpate is a really bad card. Against dredge just counter their discard outlets. Faerie macabre is better here.

Ant and tes is on point, id rather have duresses to be honest.

You should straight beat 4c cbtop anyway, so I wouldn't sweat the boarding. 3c is more difficult. Kgrips and save your forces for jace and counterbalance.

Zoo is where engineered explosives really shines, look into that.

The rock will beat you no matter what you do.

[Jim Higginbottom]

dreadnought is pretty nuts against goblins...

[mchainmail]

Disfigure is awesome.
Why are you running a bayou? That's like canadian thresh running a taiga. It makes your dazes less good.
Team america runs a bayou because it needs double black. This deck does not.


So... you like losing to Wasteland, Extirpate on a dual?

[NecroYawgmoth]

Which relevant deck runs Extirpate main, or would board it in agains this deck?

[Cthuloo]

Thanks for the answers! On the different topics:


Bayou: the main reason to run it is to fecth it as third land with Trop and U. Sea already on board, so you can't be cut off a color by a wasteland. I also prevents you from losing to random extirpates or chokes. In my testing I never regretted playing it, though I can understand it's a debatable choice.
Extirpate: I wanted some generic grave hate, and Extirpate is slightly more versatile than the other choices, messing with LDV, top, and dealing more effectively with Thopters and Loam.
Merfolk: If I am to keep the pierces in, what do you suggest to side out instead?
Goblins: I'm not really afraid of Piledriver, since I can simply remove it (or stifle the ability + block). Weirding can be a problem, and it's one of the reasons why I'm keeping in the FoWs (Weirding, Ringleader and the occasional random blood moon, to be precise). To be honest, Daze isn't awesome too, so I can see me boarding out all the 4 dazes and keeping in 2 snares
The Rock: no awesome tech to crush it (or at least make the matchup winnable...)?

[Scordata]

It is apparent that we have different playstyles.

As for merfolk though, I usually board out my ponders and board in disfigures.