[Deck] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

[Oddball]

Bayou: the main reason to run it is to fecth it as third land with Trop and U. Sea already on board, so you can't be cut off a color by a wasteland. I also prevents you from losing to random extirpates or chokes. In my testing I never regretted playing it, though I can understand it's a debatable choice.

Some things are worth testing and some have already improved well over years and just need to be adopted.

Threshold is nearly as old as Legacy and originally contained 16-18 blue sources depending on some cardchoices (Mystic Enforcer/Fledgling Dragon, Sea Drake and later on Burning-Tree Shaman etc). I think it was in 2006 when for the first time a guy from spain said he would cut a land in some matchups and so go down to 15 blue sources.
Since 2008 current Tempo Threshold builds contain only 14 blue sources, since those decks are build to avoid the lategame. Those decks have the lowest manacurve ever with only 10 cards that cost more than 1 mana to cast

No disrespect, but you say that you have tested "a bit" ("testing" is always comparitive and history of threshold's manabase is more significant than your testing) and that your 13 blue sources are fine. I think it's just a matter of time that you will get that playing 13 blue sources is not enough.

When you build a deck like this, it is much more important to concentrate on getting into the game with a more solid blue manabase then concentrating on what you want to do with your 3rd fetchland.
If you think Bayou is a fine choice in your metagame, then better go up to 19 lands total.

[Dark Ritual]

The plan against the rock: the tempo plan of stifle a land and out tempo them. That's how we win there don't let them develop their manabase to get late in the game because then we're likely losing unless we have had a bob stick for several turns.

I wouldn't bring in extirpate against tempo thresh but if people are doing it against you cut a spell for the bayou don't replace a sea/trop with a bayou so you have 19 lands but still have the same number of blue sources. I would personally cut a ponder/preordain for it if need be. Or you could always run a basic forest instead of bayou. I've had my creatures pathed so many times and it annoys me to fail to find and the basic forest helps answer blood moon and back to basics somewhat via having access to enchantment/artifact hate through nature's claim and k grip.

[Scordata]

When you lose the die roll and they open with mox diamond you don't always have that opportunity.

As bad as it seems, I feel like forcing their turn one mox diamond may be the right call - It just opens them up to broken turn one plays otherwise.
Forcing the spell they cast with mana acceleration usually seems like the right call here, but oftentimes they just play around the daze at that point.
This is what I have found to give me the most solid edge against the rock.

Unless I'm missing something here. Can some thresh master shed some more light on this subject? I'd love to learn how to beat that deck on a consistent basis. It's really the only problematic matchup I'm having at this point.

[Cthuloo]

Some things are worth testing and some have already improved well over years and just need to be adopted.

Threshold is nearly as old as Legacy and originally contained 16-18 blue sources depending on some cardchoices (Mystic Enforcer/Fledgling Dragon, Sea Drake and later on Burning-Tree Shaman etc). I think it was in 2006 when for the first time a guy from spain said he would cut a land in some matchups and so go down to 15 blue sources.
Since 2008 current Tempo Threshold builds contain only 14 blue sources, since those decks are build to avoid the lategame. Those decks have the lowest manacurve ever with only 10 cards that cost more than 1 mana to cast

No disrespect, but you say that you have tested "a bit" ("testing" is always comparitive and history of threshold's manabase is more significant than your testing) and that your 13 blue sources are fine. I think it's just a matter of time that you will get that playing 13 blue sources is not enough.

When you build a deck like this, it is much more important to concentrate on getting into the game with a more solid blue manabase then concentrating on what you want to do with your 3rd fetchland.
If you think Bayou is a fine choice in your metagame, then better go up to 19 lands total.

Well, "a bit" means basically 3 months of testing, with some hundreds games. I know the history of thresh is a way greater "body of evidence" than my testing, I just wanted to underline that my choice has some solid grounds.
I appreciated very much your considerations (and those of the other ones who intervened on the subject), tough, and since many of you seem to agree on the subject, I will take some more time to think about it (moving the bayou to the board, for example, it's an interesting possibility).

[Oddball]

When you lose the die roll and they open with mox diamond you don't always have that opportunity.

As bad as it seems, I feel like forcing their turn one mox diamond may be the right call - It just opens them up to broken turn one plays otherwise.
Forcing the spell they cast with mana acceleration usually seems like the right call here, but oftentimes they just play around the daze at that point.
This is what I have found to give me the most solid edge against the rock.

Unless I'm missing something here. Can some thresh master shed some more light on this subject? I'd love to learn how to beat that deck on a consistent basis. It's really the only problematic matchup I'm having at this point.

I don't really get the point. Well, you want to Force their first turn mox if you are on the draw so that you can daze their first threat on turn 2?
It's just one scenario, but that line of play neither does card- nor manaadvantage.

The important cards to deal with are Confidant, Knight and Hymn. Maybe you should give Deathmark a try.

[Scordata]

So here's what I'm thinking when it comes to Forcing the Mox on the draw:
1. They don't gain the mana advantage.
2. They can't power out a first turn Hymn or Bob, which we really should just be spell snaring.
3. They will be forced to play around daze from that point on, which should buy you enough time to get started.

If you save your force for whatever they power out with diamond, they still get to keep the diamond. If they play a land and/or land destruciton on their second turn, you are WAY behind. Daze at that point serves only to be pitched to Force, because you can't afford the tempo loss. What I am proposing here is that I'd like my dazes to retain their utility, so that they have to think twice before tapping out for that Knight.

In this same vein, Rock players usually pitch Fetchlands to their moxes. By forcing them to play their fetchlands out, you can open them up to stifle. We must use their fear in this regard.

[Ozymandias]

So I hear Canthresh just won a huge tourney in Italy. Anyone got a list?

[kiblast]

Edit: Double post.

[kiblast]

So I hear Canthresh just won a huge tourney in Italy. Anyone got a list?

Thresh got first at D-Day. Thresh player offered a split at the other finalist, who was playing Pikula, the Pikula player refused because said he had a positive MU against Thresh, and Fabian Moschewitz got first winning. List:

4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Rushing River
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire / Ice
4 Tarmogoyf
4 nimble MOngoose
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

Board:

2 Pyroclasm
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Tormods Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
3 Submerge
2 Spell Pierce

http://www.tipo1.it/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22932&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 (Report on Tipo1.it)

[kiblast]

Bumping because I answered during the days in which theSource was having server/db problems, thus nobody was able to see my reply and Fabian Moschewitz's list (pretty classic list). I wonder if he's a member of this board?

[bizovski]

Hi ! I'm playing classic canadian threshold (1 Vendillion and 1 R. River) and would ask question considering sideboarding against decks that run KotR-s and sometimes (like Rock and New Horizons).
What to board out? Why people choose submerge over Mind Harness ?
Is burn and Tormod-s Crypt after that good way to get rid of such creature, or should you avoid that strategy and not to board in Crypt at all ?
In my sideboard i have 2-3 Tormod's Crypt, 3 Submerge but considering 2 Submerge and 2 Mind Harness. What do you guys board in and out against such matchups ? Is Spell pierce good against Horizons or are 3 ReB-s enough?

Thnx

[Chikenbok]

Hi ! I'm playing classic canadian threshold (1 Vendillion and 1 R. River) and would ask question considering sideboarding against decks that run KotR-s and sometimes (like Rock and New Horizons).
What to board out? Why people choose submerge over Mind Harness ?
Is burn and Tormod-s Crypt after that good way to get rid of such creature, or should you avoid that strategy and not to board in Crypt at all ?
In my sideboard i have 2-3 Tormod's Crypt, 3 Submerge but considering 2 Submerge and 2 Mind Harness. What do you guys board in and out against such matchups ? Is Spell pierce good against Horizons or are 3 ReB-s enough?

Thnx

I just switched over to Canadian from Next Level simply because, in all honesty, I prefer running decks that run 4 of's instead of 2/3 of's. I like consistancy, and I love the way that oldschool Canadian runs. In regards to the KotR I usually bring in Mind Harness/Guilded Drake/Sower of Temptation. The way to deal with decks like rock and new horizons is to remember that you're playing possibly the most demanding tempo deck ever built - every spell has to matter so that turn 1 fetchland that got you a tropical island to ponder very well might have been the wrong play.

Knight certaintly is a problem and staring down a 7/7 knight seems like it can seriously be a pain in the ass but with a well timed force of will you should be able to keep it off even resolving. Stifle the knights fetch ability and remember, keep the threat of holding a bolt up as high as you can. The biggest mistake Canadian players make is thinking that they're playing a control deck - you have to play spells and win the game, not just keep your oppoenent from doing the same.

In testing, I found that Sower or Drake is better than mind harness. I'm not a fan of cumulative upkeep and while yes, sower becomes a target for removal, that generally means they have less removal for the 5/6 tarmogoyfs that put then into burn range.

- Peace

[Chikenbok]

Oh, and I run 2 REB and 2 Pyroblasts in my SB. I bring em in when I'm playing against blue... That's all. If you'd like to see my board, and boarding strategies, send me a PM.

[Ozymandias]

Submerge gets the nod over Mind Harness for a few reasons:

1) It's free to cast
2) It's instant speed
3) It doesn't tie your mana up on future turns.
4) It can hit nonred, nongreen, creatures (I'm looking at you, Tombstalker)
5) It's a higher converted mana cost (important for EE/CB, among other things)

Granted, Harness steals the creature, but it costs you so much mana to maintain it that Gilded Drake is most likely better, and even that loses to a removal spell a lot of the time.

[kues]

Im thinking in remove the 2 bouncers + 1 Fire / Ice to add 2 Vendilion + 2 Dead / Gone. Any thoughts?

[kabal]

Im thinking in remove the 2 bouncers + 1 Fire / Ice to add 2 Vendilion + 2 Dead / Gone. Any thoughts?

Don't remove the F/I, also I would be wary of having too many 3cc spells.

[kues]

I wanted to say 2 vendilion +1 dead/gone.
My best results playing this deck were having 2 vendilion main (0 bouncers), and i feel that been able to kill a t1 nacatl/lackey/hierarch is more important than the 4th fire/ice...

[goobafish]

Here is my updated list in case anyone is still interested in the deck:

4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
6 Fetch
4 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Fire/Ice
4 Brainstorm
3 Chain Lightning
4 Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 Submerge
SB: 4 Spell Pierce


I won a GPT for RI with it yesterday, going 9-0 on the day.

[kabal]

Here is my updated list in case anyone is still interested in the deck ...

How were the chain lightnings? Did you expect a surge of Zoo? How about the Grudges? What specifically prompted their inclusion?

[goobafish]

Chain Lightnings were really good, they were included as I expected lots of Zoo, Merfolk, Goblins ect. I really like having extra 1 mana burn to hit stuff like noble heirarch, lackey, apes, nactals and even cursecatchers. The extra reach is also important. Grudges were good but I didn't need them too often. I expected a good amount of Affinity at the event and no dredge, so I swapped my normal t-crypts for the grudges.

[kabal]

What did you end up playing against? What decks did you lose too?

[goobafish]

Enchantress, Combo Elves, Goblins, Zoo, Leyline Combo x2, ANT, Painter Combo, Deadguy (he scooped)

I didn't loose any matches. I have been playing another deck, but switched to thresh as a metagame call due to the amount of aggro/combo in the room.

[Azel Orfat]

I hope Canadian Threshold never dies, it's a beautiful deck ^^ Ancient Grudge seems a great choice now. I'm a bit surprised about the 4 Spell Pierce. Any special reason for that, goobafish? Would you board them against Big Zoo due to Green Sun's Zenith?

[goobafish]

I do not bring in spell pierce against zoo. It is far too essential to the combo/control match-ups to take out of the sideboard.

[Ozymandias]

I would be interested to see a sideboarding guide for this build, if you have the time.

[Azel Orfat]

I do not bring in spell pierce against zoo. It is far too essential to the combo/control match-ups to take out of the sideboard.
Thx. I love the deck but I don't really have too much idea about playing it :laugh:. I was just wondering if Zenith could be a problem because it can bring Tarmo over Spell Snare. But I suppose it can be solved with Submerge, and anyway it shouldn't be pleasant to pay one more mana with canadian thresh in front of you.

[Eventide]

I would be interested to see a sideboarding guide for this build, if you have the time.

I'll second that! And congrats on your victory!

[atropos]

I've always been curious about Chain Lightning in Thresh. I really like that idea but haven't seen it in action before. I have seen some builds with a singleton Dead/Gone though. Congrats on your finish, goobafish!

[jeanbathez]

Here is my updated list in case anyone is still interested in the deck:

4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
6 Fetch
4 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Fire/Ice
4 Brainstorm
3 Chain Lightning
4 Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 Submerge
SB: 4 Spell Pierce


I won a GPT for RI with it yesterday, going 9-0 on the day.

Congratz !!!
Like i said before only canadians can play Canadian Thresh ;-)
Interesting choice with Chain Lightnings and btw i like that list !!!

[Cenarius]

I've always been curious about Chain Lightning in Thresh. I really like that idea but haven't seen it in action before. I have seen some builds with a singleton Dead/Gone though. Congrats on your finish, goobafish!

It's actually a pretty old trick for Canadian Threshold to get more reach/better Agro matchup. It's just never seen again, because people just played Pyroclasm in their sideboard and already have, therefore, a positive matchup against Agro.

I believe that the Germans and the Dutch people can play Canadian Threshold/Dark Tempo Threshold just as good. I think the Canadians tought us when they're liberating us, back in the old days. They tought us how to play clean/sharp/groovy (in general, I mean Magic didn't even exist back then). Probably some German spies got the memo aswell.

Congrats btw.

[Ozymandias]

I did some testing with the deck and I noticed that oftentimes, Spell Snare is the nuts. The times when it isn't, it's practically useless. I noticed much the same thing about Chain Lightning and Stifle. I think I would start with these cards when boarding this deck. For instance, versus merfolk, Stifle is basically only anti-wasteland, and Spell Snare isn't great versus a vial-centric deck, though you will occasionally get to nail Lords/Jitte . I think I would board as follows against fish.:

+2 REB
+1 Pyroblast
+2 Ancient Grudge (Hits Vial and Jitte--I do wish it was needle in this matchup Not sure thisis right.)

-4 Stifle
-1 Spell Snare

Meanwhile, the Goblins matchup dictates that you keep Spell Snare in to deal with problematic Warren Weirdings. Stifles are also a lot better here because they stop triggers like Lackey, Piledriver, Matron, Ringleader, and Incinerator, and goblins has a much more fetch-based manabase. You want to bring in 2 pyroclasm, and probably 2 Grudge for Vial. Shaving is probably the right call here--you won't have the time to get cute with lots of cantrips. -1 Ponder, -1 Force of Will (only really want 3 for late-game show stoppers) -1 Spell Snare (No way they have 4 weirdings, and everything els is irrelvant.) , -1 Fire/Ice (Cannot stop t1 lackey on the draw, and a lot of their guys are toughness 2, and it costs a lot of mana.)

Am I getting these right?

[Sigar]

Can any experienced Canadian Threshold player please explain what the best and worst match-ups are for this deck? Thanks!

[Cenarius]

In short:

You want to be playing against the Tier decks, in general. Enchantress, Mono Black Control even Mono Green 'I play big creatures' are all hard matchups for this deck. There aren't good matchups in particular, but there aren't bad matchups either.
However, it totally depends on your playskills, the playskills of your opponent and the dice-roll (not really that important, but good to mention). 50/50 matchups can turn out to be 60/40. Bad matchups that are 40/60 can turn out to be winnable (50/50 or even better) etc.

Canadian Threshold and Dark Tempo Threshold are both skill-intensive. The decks are really rewarding when played correctly.

About Fire/Ice in the gobling matchup. There are far worse cards in this matchup than Fire/Ice. You don't want to board out Fire/Ice.

[Sigar]

I asked for an experienced players point of view. Someone who have actually played this deck in enough tournaments to know which match-ups to fear and vice versa, but thank you captain obvious... No offense, but that information was pretty much useless.

[Nidd]

I asked for an experienced players point of view. Someone who have actually played this deck in enough tournaments to know which match-ups to fear and vice versa, but thank you captain obvious... No offense, but that information was pretty much useless.
Thresh has no bad matchups.

[Cenarius]

I asked for an experienced players point of view. Someone who have actually played this deck in enough tournaments to know which match-ups to fear and vice versa, but thank you captain obvious... No offense, but that information was pretty much useless.

I'm sorry, but I'm playing this deck since 2008 and I actually 'created' Dark Tempo Threshold.
My current Total rating is 1852, or something like that. So, I think I'm a pretty experienced player. That's sarcastic if you haven't noticed...

It's nice to see some interest again in Tempo Threshold. Maybe it has something to do with the results of Team America and/or the trust it has given people to play Tempo decks again.

[Volrath]

I asked for an experienced players point of view. Someone who have actually played this deck in enough tournaments to know which match-ups to fear and vice versa, but thank you captain obvious... No offense, but that information was pretty much useless.


I'm sorry, but I'm playing this deck since 2008 and I actually 'created' Dark Tempo Threshold.
My current Total rating is 1852, or something like that. So, I think I'm a pretty experienced player. That's sarcastic if you haven't noticed...

It's nice to see some interest again in Tempo Threshold. Maybe it has something to do with the results of Team America and/or the trust it has given people to play Tempo decks again.

Well, i might not have created anything, i do have a Legacy rating of 1794 and a total of 1842.
I top 8 with the deck more times then i can remember.(i did switch to Survival at one point and now i'm back at playing ***** again)

I vouch for the fact that Cenarius is right on the button, the deck has no bad match up's vs Tier decks and is highly skill dependent.

Fear the ''i drop big green monster.decks'' though....

[Ozymandias]

Thresh has no bad matchups.

Loam and Ichorid are pretty bad. Not unwinnable, but bad.

[troopatroop]

Why is Nimble Mongoose still being played over Wild Nacatl? I've had some success with my Nacatl Thresh list, and much of it would have been impossible if I were playing the Goose. Threshold is relatively easy to reach, but Fetchlands make growing Nacatl faster and easier. The most important turns for the Tempo deck and the "1 drop" are the first few, so why are you playing Nimble Mongoose?

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Terravore

2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
3 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Savannah
1 Plateau

3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

SB
2 Krosan Grip
3 Pyroclasm
2 Submerge
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Energy Flux

Pros to Wild Nacatl:

- Attacks for more damage than Nimble Mongoose turns 2-5
- Blocks better in early turns
- Survives Pyroclasm more reliably
- Impervious to graveyard hate

Pros to Nimble Mongoose:

- Shroud
- Doesn't require Mountain and Plains


This is basically how I see it. Nimble Mongoose might be better against decks with alot of targetted removal, but I feel those decks are few. Modern Legacy decks are trying to go broken and win fast, and the quicker clock and pressure has been amazing. I'm playing Green Sun's Zenith, which might seem silly for a tempo build, but threat density can't be a bad thing. It helps balance the vulnerability of Wild Nacatl as well.

[Ozymandias]

Well, nacatl might be a bit bigger early on, but he still dies to 95% of the played removal and he forces you to warp your manabase to one that folds to a well-timed wasteland and invites colorscrew.

[troopatroop]

Well, nacatl might be a bit bigger early on, but he still dies to 95% of the played removal and he forces you to warp your manabase to one that folds to a well-timed wasteland and invites colorscrew.

I'm glad you make these points, because these are what deter people. I still feel like the speed is best.

- Shroud

Wild Nacatl dies to removal, but he's only a 1 mana investment. This can never be truly bad for you, and it's removal not spent on Tarmogoyf. If they can block Nimble Mongoose, they hold that STP until you play a Tarmogoyf. Lightning Bolts are unfortunate, this is the true drawback, but it's still 1 for 1. I understand that Shroud feels more safe, but if you're giving them other "better" targets anyway (and can't attack through Tarmogoyf) it's really not that good. Wild Nacatl is a more reliable attacker, and attacking for 3 on turn 2 is a weapon for Combo.

- Wasteland

Listen, I play 8 Stifle/Waste too. If they want to spend a turn wasting a dual, they're not developing their mana. Playing around Wasteland is fairly simple, just play right into it. If they Waste your Plateau to shrink Nacatl, there's no way that's screwing you on colors. Attacking for 2 is still really good. I don't play any red spells maindeck, and the only contortion of the manabase is the Plateau, Savannah, and Volcanic Island. All but 2 of my lands produce blue, and if people would test the deck, you'd see that it's smooth. 19 color producing lands is alot for a tempo deck, and attacking their manabase 1st is always good.

I'm still waiting for a convincing argument for Nimble Mongoose.

[Oddball]

I'm sorry, but I'm playing this deck since 2008 and I actually 'created' Dark Tempo Threshold.

Actually I don't think that's true. (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2584779&postcount=99)
Well, it doesn't even matter, but I've put a lot of time and energy into this deck since Legacy got the meta shift to Zoo, CB/Top, Ichorid, TES and Dragon Stompy in the end of 2007.
And well, it looks like you've benefit a lot from my creations even in 2010 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13715-[DTB]-Tempo-Thresh&p=419309&viewfull=1#post419309) (you got the advices from Adan, but as he would confirm at any time, he has done nothing else than copy/pasting my results from our conversations at icq)

[Adan]

Actually I don't think that's true. (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2584779&postcount=99)
Well, it doesn't even matter, but I've put a lot of time and energy into this deck since Legacy got the meta shift to Zoo, CB/Top, Ichorid, TES and Dragon Stompy in the end of 2007.
And well, it looks like you've benefit a lot from my creations even in 2010 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13715-[DTB]-Tempo-Thresh&p=419309&viewfull=1#post419309) (you got the advices from Adan, but as he would confirm at any time, he has done nothing else than copy/pasting my results from our conversations at icq)

Confirmed. :D

[Cenarius]

I think there's a big misunderstanding here.

I (clearly) put the created between quotation marks, since the creation of the deck is not literally in my hands. Adan has given me some tips about the sideboard (including Phyrexian Dreadnoughts), against Tribal decks. Sorry, Oddball, but I haven't heard from you when I created/made my decklist, therefore I did not know that u played a list back in 2007 (with EE's and Extirpate). It would have been nice if someone actually posted the list on Thesource, it would have definitely swaped me earlier from Red to Black. Anyway, I should have mentioned your names...

About the Wild Nacatl list. If it suites your playstyle, noone will stop you. If you get good results with the decklist, that's great. It's just that Nimble Mongoose is better, but that's just my opinion.

Anyway, my prediction about this thread is either that it goes into a semi-flame war or that it bleeds to death again. It can still go either way. In the end noone wants to discuss things about the deck anyhow, but that's just my opinion. And how cares about opinions?

[Volrath]

On the Nacatl vs Mongoose thing.

Nacatl:

Pro's-

Faster.

Con's-

Nacatl warps your manabase.
Nacatl dies to every form of removal.
A single wasteland can bend you over and take you to Brown town.


Mongoose

Pro's-

Can single handeldy win you the game vs control MU's.
Doesn't rape your mana base.
A treshed Mongoose stops Zoo's apes all day long.

Con's-
Slower
Graveyard dependend.

[I am the brainwasher]

I want to ask a few things about the sideboard plans and MU estimations. It would be nice to hear from more experienced players, mainly playing Canadian Thresh.

CAN vs. Junk
CAN vs. CAN
CAN vs. Dark Thresh
bug-Landstill vs. CAN

I have quite a few problems when playing against those decks and those are the ones I feel pretty unconfident about. I do know allover to play the deck rather well but I am really looking forward to get the edge with it.
Thanks

[Voltaic]

[Warning: This report is Long. If this were any other forum, i'd be Spoilering stuff. I can't. Enjoy!]

I've played Thresh off and on for the last... hmm.. Since Future Sight came out. (Too lazy to math).

(background time!)

After helping spur Legacy fever with some friends, we've been testing together to get ready for the West Coast SCG Opens. We went to San Jose after about 2 months worth of testing time, and I went with High Tide, my favorite combo deck. I ended 5-3 due to 1 bad pairing, 1 bad judge call, and a Fizzle. Happens.

I was all content to play Tide again.... Until Hatfield won with it. All of a sudden it was back on the radar.

So I grabbed an old favorite out of the closet. I grabbed a list from a friend who has placed with Thresh in a few events (Thanks for the list Simon!), tweaked it to where I thought I needed to be in the meta, and ran with it.

Here's the list I ran


2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Mountain

Sideboard:
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Spell Pierce
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
3 Submerge
2 Krosan Grip


Yep. Basics.

Yep. They're incredible.

I felt like with the menace of other Wasteland decks hanging around, I usually wanted some backup protection. It's done perfect in testing so I wanted to see how it did.

After scrubbing out of standard with abysmal 1-3 (3 losses to RDW... Pretty sure I knew going in that I was going to face RDW and lose) I entered the Legacy Challenge event to warm myself up, and see what the local meta was.

Legacy Challenge
Round 1 - UW Tempo - 1-2 Loss. (0-1)
* I couldn't do too much here. I held out for quite a while before I succumbed to the pressure of silly Mother of Runes wielding jittes walking all over my face.
* Game 2 I was able to stifle him out of game early off his lands, and daze out the pressure he gave me. He tried to swords Mongoose at one point (which happened to me a LOT during the weekend) and felt foolish.

Round 2 - UGW Counter Top - 1-2 Loss (0-2)
* Not feeling confident at the moment, as I'm pretty sure these are 2 of our worst matchups of the "popular" decks.
* Somewhere in game 3 we played Draw-Go for about 6 turns. He landed CB, I gripped it, laid down Mongoose, I had him down to 1. He squeaked out Thopter Foundry to steal back the win. Almost there. :(

Round 3 - Zoo - 1-2 Loss (0-3)
* Pretty sure I've now faced all 3 of our nightmare matchups.
* During Game 1, I kept him off balance for a while by hitting him on Turn 3 with "Waste your Plateau, Fire your 2 Nacatls". Then Knight came down. That's how you spell GGs.
* Game 2, Explosives wrecked his board, Submerge wrecked his Knight (yay Fetches!), Mongoose supplied the beats.
* Game 3, Oooh lightning is tasty!

Round 4 - Bye - SUPERWIN! (1-3)
* I walked over to watch my friend, 2-1 with my Belcher deck, as his opponent failed to show up. Free packs!

DESPAIR!

I was hoping and praying that Sunday's tournament didn't leave me with such bad matchups. I took the same 75 on Sunday.

SCG Open LA Legacy
Round 1 - Affinity - 0-2 Loss (0-1)
This was a rough loss, because it was fueled by me. Game 1, I was on the draw with Stifle/Ponder/Fire/Fetch/Waste/Snare/Bolt. I kept, thinking "THIS IS AWESOME!"
And then I cast Ponder on turn 1. Everyone knows you keep your blue open for Snare against affinity, lest th..
"Cranial Plating, Equip, Swing for 9". Yeah ok. I tried to stabilize, bolting the Plating holder, Stifling the Instant-speed equip, but I didn't manage to draw a Fetch or Green source for the Goyf I drew.

Game 2, He got down a Turn 2 Master of Etherium. I was forced to Double-Bolt it, and had no removal left for his other, smaller guys. Thems the breaks!

Round 2 - Mono-Red - 2-0 Win (1-1)
Has anyone ever said how soundly tempo thresh beats mono red?

Here's the Cliff's notes: "Goblin Guide", "Thanks for the land. Bolt." "Rift Bolt" "Stifle the play trigger" "Marauders" "Snare". Meanwhile Mongoose is sitting there sucking up their will to live.

Round 3 - Merfolk - 2-1 Win (2-1)
Oh look! Merfolk! *crush crush crush*
FYI, I lost game 2 due to stupidity. For some reason, at some point, I felt that it was ok for him to be able to Vial in a creature at a point in time, instead of Stifling it. This, of course, let him do stupid things that Fishes do to win.

Round 4 - Merfolk - 2-0 Win (3-1)
Stomp stomp stomp

Round 5 - High Tide - 2-1 Win (4-1)
This was, perhaps, the BEST match All Day, simply because of the shenanigans of Game 3. Game 1, I didn't apply any pressure, really, and he combo'd out on about Turn 10. There was really nothing I could do.

I boarded in REBs and Pierces and prepared to fight to the death! I boarded out 4 bolts (dumb!), 1 Fire, 1 Ponder, 1 Wasteland. I laid down Goyf and Mongoose as early as I could, and just let them bounce. The turn he went off, I had Double-Blast, Pierce, Force, Daze, Stifle in hand waiting for him.

Game 3, I kept the same play. Turn 1 Mongoose, Turn 2 Goyf (he dazed, I dazed, he forced, I looked funny). Sit around all day with mana open, bashing. The time came for him to go off. My endstep he Meditated, I allowed. He went to 4 on my 2nd turn. His turn. He had 6 islands in play, casted Tide, tapped a land, casted tide.

He floated 13, played cantrips down to 10 available. Casted Turnabout.
I tapped a Volcanic, and announced "Floating 1 Red and 2 Blue." He stares at me, and I said "2 high tides. 2 blue."
Nothing like teaching a player how their deck works.
Anyway, I REB'd.
He responded with Candelabra for 6, 0 open. I Stifled the Candelabra.
He tanked. He pacted the Stifle. I dazed. Daze Resolves.
He Forced the Stifle. I Dazed. Resolves.
He Forced the Stifle. I Dazed. Resolves.
He Forced the Stifle. I tapped 2 lands and hardcast Force.

No cards left in hand, I'm praying. He's tanking.
Boom, scoops it up.

Round 6 - BUGAmerica - 2-0 Win (5-1)
This game was interesting, but it's what I've been already testing against with my partners. At one point he had the game pretty much under control, but was drawing land after land. He too was foiled by the "No Threshold Required" Shroud! (Claimed 3 Victims on the day!)

Round 7 - Merfolk (Alex B) - 0-2 Loss (5-2)
This is the round I lament. My breakers were REALLY low, so I pretty much had to win the next 2, instead of Win+Draw. I obviously knew what he was playing.
Game 1 I tanked on a hand I knew would wreck him if I found a 2nd land with the ponder. Didn't get there. Got wasted.
Game 2 I was blinded by my greed and did something similar (kept Land+Waste, got another waste in the next few turns).

This is the round where I learn that, no matter how good your matchups are vs a particular deck, you still aren't allowed to be completely stupid.

Round 8 - Mono-red - 2-0 Win (6-2)
Insert Stomping Sounds.
Oh, by the way, I mulled to 4 game 2. Got there.

---

The deck pretty much performed exactly as I wanted it. The mainboard was pretty perfect. Knowing when to grab Basics is a pretty key skill. Simon didn't think Basics were very good. he changed his tune when I hit 5-1. More testing needed, obviously, but I'm pretty confident that it's the right play, though i'll admit i'm tempted to go -1 Mountain +1 Taiga. There just aren't enough Green Sources in the deck sometimes.

The sideboard could probably use some work. The EE's were pretty good when I needed them, helping solidify even further the Merfolk matchup, plus some random matchups (testing between rounds showed me that). The card I was least happy with was Submerge, but I still think it's necessary, since it's the only real way we have to deal with Tombstalker.

I originally wanted Curfew in the Submerge slot, but I buckled to the pressure. Kinda glad I did, since I didn't see any Emrakul/Progenitus.

And there you go. Thanks for reading.

[reev_]

Here is my updated list in case anyone is still interested in the deck:

4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
6 Fetch
4 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Fire/Ice
4 Brainstorm
3 Chain Lightning
4 Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 Submerge
SB: 4 Spell Pierce


I won a GPT for RI with it yesterday, going 9-0 on the day.


goobafish, can you say your sb against all matches? i have some problems to side with their list.

[goobafish]

As I have stated before; if anyone needs help with sideboarding tips against a specific deck, they are free to PM me. I prefer not to post my full sideboard strategy on the forums, especially because I don't follow a strict guide and many things influence how I sideboard beyond their deck archetype. To post a "guide" is doing a disservice to the deck, as it can sideboard very differently and still be equally successful. When I look back on my primer, I regret creating the sideboard guide section, as that was only one of the ways I have sideboarded in each match.

[lorddotm]

Lots of stuff.

Against Bertoncini you definitely scooped far too quickly, twice. In fact the first game, he had nothing good in hand.

[kues]

Why do you use 2x pyroclasm having 10 burn-spells (+ 3 Rebs against merfolks)?
I think Pithing Needle is one of the best cards in Canadian Sideboard and we should use 2 at least (if not 3).
Also 4x Spell Pierce looks like a lot...

[Voltaic]

Against Bertoncini you definitely scooped far too quickly, twice. In fact the first game, he had nothing good in hand.

You must have been there, I'm guessing?

Game 1, I probably did give up early. I don't remember game 1 all too well, to be honest. I could have sworn by the time I quit game 1, i was looking at lethal on the board, but that's just (probably) bad recollection on my end.

Game 2, I went to turn 9 before I gave up. This was after getting Double-Wasted, with Waste#3 in play on his side, an Adept in play. I was already at 11. I probably quit a tiny bit too early at this point, but I already was kicking myself in the teeth for my stupid play, so I tilted a little at this point.

[Chikenbok]

You must have been there, I'm guessing?

Game 1, I probably did give up early. I don't remember game 1 all too well, to be honest. I could have sworn by the time I quit game 1, i was looking at lethal on the board, but that's just (probably) bad recollection on my end.

Game 2, I went to turn 9 before I gave up. This was after getting Double-Wasted, with Waste#3 in play on his side, an Adept in play. I was already at 11. I probably quit a tiny bit too early at this point, but I already was kicking myself in the teeth for my stupid play, so I tilted a little at this point.

It happens to the best of us.

[routlaw]

Played Canadian Threshold in a small tourney yesterday (17 people). Went 4-0-1 and got 1st on breakers. I swapped a Fire/Ice for a Dead/Gone and played Preordain over Ponder as an experiment and played 2 Vendilion Cliques in the two flex slots.

Board was OK, but needed tuning-I should have gone with more dredge hate or no dredge hate. I would probably drop a Spell Pierce (this deck barely needs to board anything vs. combo, the MD is very strong as long as you use Ice to keep your Dazes on) for another Crypt or a Ravenous Trap.

3 Submerge
2 Pyroclasm
3 Red Blasts (2/1 split)
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Null Rod
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Spell Pierce


My meta is a lot of combo, and not just storm combo, but sometimes the most random combo you can envision, I swear some people in my store mine like page 10 of the New and Developing Decks forums for ideas. Canadian Thresh is extremely difficult for combo decks to fight through, so playing it instead of the Zenith Zoo deck I had also sleeved up seemed a better choice.

R1: Bye, I scouted. Rest of the meta was:

2 Goblins
1 Merfolk
3 Affinity
2 ANT
1 LED Ichorid
1 NLT
1 NO Bant
1 Planeswalker Landstill
1 BUG control/Dark Depths Combo finish
2 Junk
1 False Cure combo

Usually there is more Merfolk and zero control decks. It's a shame that there was only one Merfolk deck, because your Merfolk matchup is insane with this deck.

R1: Bye
R2: Went 2-0 vs. False Cure .

G1 he didn't see much action and I kept him from making a huge Kavu Predator. Geese and Goyf on the attack. EOT Clique bags a False Cure from his hand that he had been sandbagging for a kill turn.
G2. I boarded in Submerges but was able to just kill a Kavu Predator without it going huge. Spell Snared one False Cure and Forced the other, double goose gets there.

R3: R/b Goblins
G1: Killed T1 Lackey after he mulled to six. Was able to trade one for one for everything except Mogg War Marshal Tokens. Had to Force a Matron near the end but was able to get him low enough w/ Goyf beats that I was able to keep him from getting a critical mass, even after he Siege-Ganged me off a Lackey connection near the end of the game. He had a dead

Brought in the two pyroclasms, took out the Cliques since they were just going to feed Gempalm Incinerator, which I had blanked all of G1 with my dudes+removal.

G2: Forced T1 Vial, he double wasted trying to keep me off Green, I stifled the second wasteland and he got stuck on lands for a few turns. Got full value out of two dazes near the end of the game and that's all I needed to get to the point where Goblins has to chump block everything every turn (which is when they lose). He boarded in four Perish but never saw them.

Seemed like a very even matchup. Keeping them off Vial is huge, I'm not sure think you can win this MU if they have a live vial.

G4: Drew with the NLT player. He has a habit of nut drawing me and is a better Magic player, happy to get a draw and play for the tourney win/split in the next round.

G5: Affinity.

G1 : I see every blue card in my deck in my opener on the draw except the two relevant ones: Spell Snare and Force of Will. Die horribly to Arcbound Ravager on an Affinity nut draw and should have mulliganed that hand.

In come the Null Rods and Ancient Grudges.

G2: He keeps a slow hand w/ Thoughtcast and doesn't do much. Had Ancient Grudge into Turn 3 Null Rod. Had to give the Affinity player the talk about what Null Rod does to his deck, with emphasis on "without glimmervoid, assuming you run it, your deck can never make mana again". He scoops two turns later.

G3: He mulls to four, I have Ancient Grudge and blow up his mana and Wasteland the rest. He discards Myr Enforcers, I finally find some Geese and get there.

So I did well dodging Ichorid and the Knight of the Reliquary decks. It's a tough pull between this and Next Level Threshold for the sweet spot in fighting Tribal Aggro while fighting combo as well. I like both decks but the cheaper spells, more abundant cantrips, and fluidity of play in Canadian Threshold makes it such a delight to play.

The Preordains were fine and IMO are better in a six-fetch deck G1 when you are don't have nuclear bomb cards from your sideboard in the deck to dig for. Post-board Ponder may be better, but I'll stick with the Preordains for now. One on top, one on bottom was very commonplace, and when you get a Preordain like that it's generally way better than a Ponder would be. The Dead/Gone would have better been a fourth Fire/Ice-the savings when you use it for burn and the ability to get a bounce are nothing compared to being able to pitch it to Force of Will, turn on your Dazes while cantripping, and fork the damage between two weenies.

I'm only a mediocre pilot but as long as you put thought into making as much of your hand "online" as possible while at the same time getting out your threats, the deck is honestly not terribly difficult to drive. One thing to mention-format knowledge goes a huge way in making this deck successful. Knowing what, if any, cards you just flat out lose to in an opponents 75 and working to keep them from resolving them is a pretty huge deal.

[Chikenbok]

I'm only a mediocre pilot but as long as you put thought into making as much of your hand "online" as possible while at the same time getting out your threats, the deck is honestly not terribly difficult to drive. One thing to mention-format knowledge goes a huge way in making this deck successful. Knowing what, if any, cards you just flat out lose to in an opponents 75 and working to keep them from resolving them is a pretty huge deal.

I dig the list but for some reason I just haven't been sold on Ven Clique. I'm currently running 1/1 Ven Clique/Rushing River in the flexes and I'm honestly considering turning that other clique into another river. Yeah, I get to see hands and occasionally (but probably not) swing for 3 in the air but I feel like usually, my hand is very amply stacked to deal with anything the opponent might have - without needing a clique. But maybe I'm just not rocking it in the right matches.

Also, my sideboard is almost identical but I cut 1 crypt and 1 grudge to fit in 3 spell pierce. Kinda really love that card.

[Scordata]

IMO 1 Ven Clique/1 River is correct. Clique is such a house, even if he eats removal, in so many matchups, that he should not even be considered a "flex spot."

Clique ups your threat count, destroys control, and is actually a late game finisher.
The synergy with how the deck plays is really good too. Seeing as how we only run 4 hard counters, we need to know precisely just what to force. If your opponent is netdecking, which is the case with most competitive players, you will not only know what you might encounter, but after casting clique, what you WILL encounter.

Imagine this line of play: Opponent casts Brainstorm, then attempts to crack a fetch. Flash in clique, cycling their best card, for a dead one.

River is there mostly for when Jace/other annoying permanent hits the board. Also, the synergy between these 2 cards is kind of nuts as well. Bounce their Jace, and have them cycle it?

Let's not forget you can target yourself, which can help you dig for answers in a hurry.

I've tested Dead/Gone, and would play it only in a heavy tribal meta, if at all. Chain Lightning/Price of Progress are also good considerations, depending on what you think you will be up against.

I run 1 Clique/1 river main, and PoP's in my side. Usually take out 3 Dazes for 3 Pierces when on the draw, and cut the last daze/ "flex spot" for whatever I feel is necessary. Your mantra, when playing this deck, should be asking yourself "Who's the beatdown?" at the end of every turn.

This having been said, I feel that the black splash is still empirically stronger against the field, as many decks have increased the casting cost of their spells. It also dons't care about KotR at all. At this point, UGb is probably the way to go, espcially because the Bob/Cantrip engine is so strong. That having been said, if you see a lot of merfolk/zoo at your local store, bring your lightning bolts instead.

[GGoober]

Does UGr Thresh have a better matchup against Zoo than UGb (with bobs)? I'm guessing that Bobs don't stick around much against Zoo. One main thing I like about UGr is REB postboard. The ability to take out Jace, RWM is quite a big plus i.e. Bant/Countertop/Control matchups. Although a resolved KotR can be problematic unless you Submerge/Sower it (I personally would play Sower/Drake, since it's also effective against Emrakul). In light of Meandeck MUD and Affinity on the rise, UGr still has a great edge over UGb with Ancient Grudge usually spelling GG for those decks.

I'm asking these questions because I'm jumping back and forth between wanting to playtest UGr or UGb. Bob is so awesome, but at the same time red is amazingly not a shitty color in this deck when it comes to SB options that pair very synergistically to the deck's gameplan.

[Scordata]

It comes down to 2 things - playstyle and metagame.
It can be said that the black splash is more controlling, but thats not always true. It just runs more powerful spells. The removal is often 1B, which costs twice as much as Lightning Bolt. Also EE costs usually 3 or 4 mana over 1/2 turns. Once you land a bob, however - its gg for your opponent. You can afford to FoW more trivial spells, and usually swing for the win over the next few turns.

A protected turn 2 bob will get you there more often than not. It is almost always correct to FoW any removal played on him before you get to draw your first extra card, because over 1-2 turns you make up the card disadvantage. In a deck that relies on OPTIONS, Dark Confidant is almost cheating.

Due to the fact that you will need 1 more mana to get started, the black splash suffers from decks who will try to out-tempo you in the early game. Common examples are the Creature heavy Zoo hand, and Merfolk with a turn 1 vial. Your strategy here is to not let them overtake your tempo - EE on 1 for zoo, and creature removal/daze for merfolk. UGr has the upper hand here, but if you take advantages of opponents bad draws, and possible misplays, you can grab a more even keel. You want to be the beatdown in these matchups turns 1-3. IE Make your land drops, land a bob, and just get him to stick. If you use your cantrips effectively, which is a science in and of itself, these matchups become more like 45/55 then 30/70.

A useful analogy between the red and black splash is to think of the red splash like a sports car - fast and agile - but often stopped by losing control, or a brick wall. The black splash is more of a Mack Truck - sometimes slower off the line, but once it gets going, it is almost impossible to stop. I prefer inevitability over flooring it at a green light and hoping to win the race.

Remember - the bulk of the cards are the same: Goyf, goose, stifle/waste. In some games, these differences wont even matter.

[Ozymandias]

Even though I only went 3-2 with this deck yesterday, the red just performed. Pyroclasm single-handedly won me multiple games versus affinity (Punted game 1 and got ripped on g3 so I lost that.) I grudged a vial, and when he vialed Siege-gang in response, I pyroclasmed. I bolted crusher while my opponent was tapped out, and hit 2 lavamancers with one fire/ice. Submerge was only mildly relevant, would probably go to 3. I never saw or cast Spell Pierce/REB, and all in all, I would probably go with 3 pyroclasm, 3 submerge, 2 Gilded Drake, 2 Spell pierce, 2 REB, 2 Ancient Grudge, 1 Gaea's Blessing. Maybe a little bit more graveyard hate.

[GGoober]

It comes down to 2 things - playstyle and metagame.
It can be said that the black splash is more controlling, but thats not always true. It just runs more powerful spells. The removal is often 1B, which costs twice as much as Lightning Bolt. Also EE costs usually 3 or 4 mana over 1/2 turns. Once you land a bob, however - its gg for your opponent. You can afford to FoW more trivial spells, and usually swing for the win over the next few turns.

A protected turn 2 bob will get you there more often than not. It is almost always correct to FoW any removal played on him before you get to draw your first extra card, because over 1-2 turns you make up the card disadvantage. In a deck that relies on OPTIONS, Dark Confidant is almost cheating.

Due to the fact that you will need 1 more mana to get started, the black splash suffers from decks who will try to out-tempo you in the early game. Common examples are the Creature heavy Zoo hand, and Merfolk with a turn 1 vial. Your strategy here is to not let them overtake your tempo - EE on 1 for zoo, and creature removal/daze for merfolk. UGr has the upper hand here, but if you take advantages of opponents bad draws, and possible misplays, you can grab a more even keel. You want to be the beatdown in these matchups turns 1-3. IE Make your land drops, land a bob, and just get him to stick. If you use your cantrips effectively, which is a science in and of itself, these matchups become more like 45/55 then 30/70.

A useful analogy between the red and black splash is to think of the red splash like a sports car - fast and agile - but often stopped by losing control, or a brick wall. The black splash is more of a Mack Truck - sometimes slower off the line, but once it gets going, it is almost impossible to stop. I prefer inevitability over flooring it at a green light and hoping to win the race.

Remember - the bulk of the cards are the same: Goyf, goose, stifle/waste. In some games, these differences wont even matter.

This is great, thanks a bunch! I know that all counters aimed at Bob resolving will win the game (once bob draws just +1 card, you're back from the 2-1 from FoW). The only issue I have is assuming a zoo-heavy meta (particularly with punishing fires) or a removal heavy meta, I'm thinking that there's actually about 2 turns worth of tempo loss in protecting bob (you need to play him turn 2) and have either Daze/Fow Up. There are situations where you don't have those hands, or if your opponent is playing with Dazes, you probably don't want to drop Bob on turn 2 either.

Granted, there's also the cases where you pointed out, you play bob, they don't have counter/removal, you are super good, or if they have counter-removal and you have the Daze/Fow, you will end up winning. I'll have to think about it to the playstyle and my meta. The only problem I see with the red splash is a more risky game against Junk/KotR and Progenitus, although I think I'll solve that problem with Spell Pierce in the SB.

Has anyone been testing Divert against Junk? I know it's not an ideal sideboard choice, but I know that Tempo Thresh usually has a tough time against Junk. Divert seems yet another card comparable to Spell SNare but is more backbreaking against decks like TA and Junk than spell pierce. Against combo/control it's also another extra counter.

[Scordata]

Honestly, Metalwalker, it seems like if your meta is full of zoo and junk, you should just be playing combo.

No version of threshold that I have tested has a consistently positive matchup against junk, but ugb lists can have a slight edge, if only for kotr removal.
Sounds just ripe for DoomsDay combo, if you ask me :)

[a-slice-of-cake]

Hey guys, I love love LOVE Canadian Threshold and am looking to run it in Providence. Here's the list I have now -- I know it's a bit archaic, as it's from the good old days of Survival, and I'm wondering how I can update it best.

Land
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island (used to be 3 volc and 1 basic U, but getting hosed out of 3 red sources happened a lot more often that I anticipated)
4 Wasteland
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest

Dudes
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose (amazing how people don't know he always has shroud)
2 Vendillion Clique

Sorceries
4 Ponder (It's better than Preordain in this deck. Get over it.)

Instants
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire//Ice
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Echoing Truth
4 Stifle

Sideboard
3 Submerge
2 Firespout
2 Pithing Needle (I will never, ever, ever play less than 2 of these in my sb for this deck)
2 Nature's Claim (tentative -- I hear Counterbalance isn't around much anymore? If it comes back, Krosans come back in.)
2 Trygon Predator
2 Tormod's Crypt (obligatory dredge hate -- Relic hurts our clock too much, even though it beats Leyline of Sanctity)
1 Spell Pierce
1 ??? (deciding between Dispel, Pyroblast and Reverent silence, almost certainly Pyroblast or Dispel for GP Prov though)

[kues]

Echoing Truth is the WORST bouncer that you can play on this deck. Seriosly. When i was playing Rushing River, a typical play was "RR your 2x Goyfs, attack with goyf + goose for the win or let him on a burn-range".
I would play the classic version (all 4x +2 Vendilion), but i think nothing is going to change if you play 1x spell pierce over the snare or daze...

About the SB:

I dont like Trygons and Natures Claim (give him 4 life playing a tempo-deck?)
Red Elemental Blast should be on your SB (I will never, ever, ever play less than 3 of these in my sb for this deck ;) )

This is my sb:
4 submerge
3 Pyroblast
3 Spell pierce
3 Pithing needle
2 Pyroclasm/Krosan/Tormod's/A. grudge

[a-slice-of-cake]

I have to disagree on the issue of Trygons, they are an absolute godsend against a large number of decks. Counterbalance may be waning, but he still destroys things such as Chalice, Trinisphere, Crucible, and other nasty things as well as provide another body. Yeah, he's expensive, but totally worth the cost.

As far as Nature's Claim goes, it only goes in against decks whose life total I don't care about because A) the 4 life they get is a lot less of an issue than me not being able to swing at them (Enchantress, Prison, Stax) and/or cast spells (Back to Basics, Choke, Scald) or B) I have to play control because they're so absurdly aggressive (Affinity).

As far as Echoing Truth goes, there's a lot of targets besides Tarmogoyf. Its abilities to wrath against tokens from Dredge and Belcher on the Empty the Warrens plan is pretty valuable. And if I'm bouncing a Tombstalker, I typically don't have 3 mana to work with if I don't want to leave myself open to Daze. I definitely see why RR is superior in Goyf wars, but I don't know how significant that niche will be compared to the versatility that Echoing Truth provides. (Plus, I rarely have extra land lying around to sacrifice...)

I do agree that Pyroblast is a boss, and I need to find room for it. Maybe I'll shave 1 Trygon and put one in my open slot. I might consider running a third.

[bizovski]

Would you guys consider playing freshly spoiled Mental Misstep in canadian ? It seems really good. And there is extirpate effect card for 2 life for side.

[Volrath]

I'd play it as a 3 off easily, perhaps 4 off.

I've been thing of a 3/3 split between this and daze.

Also, Beast Within seems bonkers to me since it's instant speed vindicate or a 3/3 beater for yourself when needed to.

I love it's versatility, but canadian might not be it's best place.

Card Type: Instant

Casting Cost: 2(G)

Card Text: Destroy target permanent. Its controller puts a 3/3 green Beast creature token onto the battlefield.


Flavor Text: "Kill the weak so they can't drag the strong down to their level. This is true compassion."
--Benzir, archdruid of Temple Might

[Dark Ritual]

I'm on the fence about beast within just because it's 3 mana. If it were 2, I'd be crazy excited about the card. But it is a vindicate at instant speed that can answer random cards we can't normally answer like kotr and jace, the mind sculptor. Also functions as land destruction sometimes.

And how about mental misstep? You could potentially replace daze with this card. At least against aggro decks mental misstep > daze all day long. Counter bolt, lackey, nacatl, grim lavamancer, VIAL, etc. etc. And against control you can counter swords, their missteps, snare, sensei's top, brainstorm, etc. etc. The card is the best card in the set by far. Against combo it counters chant, duress, dark rit, rite of flame, grindstone, brainstorm, ponder, preordain, goblin welder in painter stone builds. This card is just ridiculously powerful. Other random cards it gets are mirri's guile, utopia sprawl, and wild growth against enchantress. In the mirror it gets stifle.

Also we might have a SB card in torpor orb. It stops ringleader, siege gang, matron, merrow reejerey, silvergill adept, etc. etc. there might be potential for it.

[troopatroop]

If Wild Nacatl and Nimble Mongoose were close before, I think Mental Misstep pushed Nacatl a good bit forward. Now that we have profitable protection from spot removal and Stifle, theres no real reason not to take the speed of Wild Nacatl. This is what I'll be testing.


4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique

3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Snare

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Stifle

4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau

3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest

Hitting Threshold before turn 4 is fairly impossible. Legacy has gotten so fast, and if your one drop can't put any pressure on Storm, I don't think that is valuable enough. I've had success with Wild Nacatl before, but I can't wait to counter a Lightning Bolt or StP for free. 16 Counters might be overkill, but you absolutely destroy Combo decks like this. I cut the creatures down to 10, to leave room for the increased spell count with Mental Misstep, and I like the abundance of spells. Knight of the Reliquary could replace the Clique, but Flash and Evasion really makes the Clique ideal.

Thoughts on Mental Misstep? This deck should be playing it, and I expect it to be phenominal. Cheers!

[a-slice-of-cake]

Since when was it close between Nacatl and the Goose? Sure, the cat is faster, but the goose is so much more reliable and isn't going to get tazed if our Plateau/Tundra gets Wastelanded (and it will). Then again, I can't stand trying to make a 4-color Thresh list work. It's just trying to do too many things at once imo.

I do think Mental Misstep is crazy powerful, but I'm not sure if I want to cut Ponder (one of our few sources of pseudo-card-advantage, and a great card post-Brainstorm) for 4 straight-up. We need to think this through a bit more...

Beast Within is a sweet card, but not in our deck. Remember, we're the fastest tempo deck and as such, our threats are a little smaller. Team America and New Horizons (if that deck still exists) don't care about a measly 3/3 compared to their Tombstalker or KotR, but our Mongoose/other-one-drop-that-should-be-Mongoose isn't pleased about staring down someone his size if he doesn't have to.

Also: Torpor orb is just awesome. I mean, wow. Holy crap. I'm afraid it doesn't stop Reejery though: That's a "when cast" effect, not an enter-the-battlefield. Same with the Eldrazi Titans.

[GGoober]

Goose wins games, Nacatl steals games. There's a big difference.

Sorry, putting semantics aside, Nacatl is great when you have strong hands and opponents kept weak hands. Mongoose is almost always guaranteeing you games against many other decks. When playing against control (I was running Canadian Thresh), Mongoose was ages better than even Tarmogoyf. He's just immune to everything except for 3-powered critters, which you burn out or counter.

And to all the people on the [SCD] discussing how Tempo decks are hit by opponent's mental misstep because Tempo Thresh plays over 50% 1cmc spells, oh how wrong are they lol. How are you going to counter Tempo Thresh's spells when Tempo Thresh itself is packing missteps against your missteps, along with a ton of other disruption?

[Oddball]

4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau

3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest

Hitting Threshold before turn 4 is fairly impossible.
Why did you cut 4 Ponder for 4 Lands?
I don't get the 22 Lands total in a Deck like this. Your mana curve is sth like 1.1
Sure, the colour producing lands are just 18, but that's still 4 more sources than canadian thresh, whichs curve is much higher.

[troopatroop]

Since when was it close between Nacatl and the Goose? Sure, the cat is faster, but the goose is so much more reliable and isn't going to get tazed if our Plateau/Tundra gets Wastelanded (and it will). Then again, I can't stand trying to make a 4-color Thresh list work. It's just trying to do too many things at once imo.

My list is 3 colors. Volcanic Island taps for Blue, and the Plateau is 1 card. Attacking for 2 is fine, and Stifle+MM protects from Stifle and Wasteland. I really don't think it's much of a drawback, and speed definitely matters! Who wants to swing with a 1/1?


Why did you cut 4 Ponder for 4 Lands?
I don't get the 22 Lands total in a Deck like this. Your mana curve is sth like 1.1
Sure, the colour producing lands are just 18, but that's still 4 more sources than canadian thresh, whichs curve is much higher.

I was never comfortable with 14 color producing lands + Wasteland. I could cut Spell Pierces and a Land for some Ponder.


Goose wins games, Nacatl steals games. There's a big difference.

Sorry, putting semantics aside, Nacatl is great when you have strong hands and opponents kept weak hands. Mongoose is almost always guaranteeing you games against many other decks. When playing against control (I was running Canadian Thresh), Mongoose was ages better than even Tarmogoyf. He's just immune to everything except for 3-powered critters, which you burn out or counter.

Thanks for putting the semantics aside :-/

Wild Nacatl is great when he applies pressure early game. Nimble Mongoose can NEVER do this, I don't care how good the opponents hand is or what deck he's playing. Once you've bought your time with Stifle, Daze, and Wasteland, you want to capitalize on it. Attacking for 1 is a discrace, and Wild Nacatl is a terrific play against alot of the format. All forms of combo can't answer Wild Nacatl all the same, much like Merfolk/Goblins/ and MUD. Mental Misstep is a new weapon against STP and Lightning Bolt, so why not also use it to defend the faster creature. The manabase is what turns people off, but in actuallity, I would much rather be able to fetch for a Plateau at any time than depend on Thresh. He attacks and blocks better than Mongoose, and so what if he eats an Stp! It's 1 for 1, and that's never truly bad. I've won many games based on the speed that I would have surely lost if I were swinging for 1, and that is something I've watched closely.

Edit: On the subject of Ponder, I think it's inherantly stronger in decks that can find the "win". I'm talking about Combo, or decks with Natural Order or Show and Tell. This deck is a compilation of weapons, and while you do want to draw more of them, the Ponder could just have been another Weapon. Does that make sense? MD space is at a real premium with Mental Misstep in the format. It's something to think about.

[a-slice-of-cake]

You definitely have a point about Nacatl being faster, and I can understand that. And yeah, attacking for 1 sucks. There's something worse than attacking for 1, though -- attacking for 0 because your 1-drop just ate an opponent's removal spell, or losing your Goyf because you burned the Misstep on the cat. Sure, StP'ing a cat is 1:1 -- but you forget that we are not like the typical aggro deck that can just keep chucking dudes at the opponent. We have limited threats, and every time one of them bites the dust it makes the game significantly harder to win.

I also love Fire//Ice and Bolt far too much to exchange them for StP alone as my removal suite.

[Volrath]

You definitely have a point about Nacatl being faster, and I can understand that. And yeah, attacking for 1 sucks. There's something worse than attacking for 1, though -- attacking for 0 because your 1-drop just ate an opponent's removal spell, or losing your Goyf because you burned the Misstep on the cat. Sure, StP'ing a cat is 1:1 -- but you forget that we are not like the typical aggro deck that can just keep chucking dudes at the opponent. We have limited threats, and every time one of them bites the dust it makes the game significantly harder to win.

I also love Fire//Ice and Bolt far too much to exchange them for StP alone as my removal suite.

STP is actually kind of counter productive here.
He wants the kitty because it's faster, but giving them life with STP counter acts this.

The luxury of having 20 dmg on burn spells to toss at the opponent sure makes up for the fact that you unkillable mongoose yust kicked for 1 for 2/3 turns.

He also doens't mind if the Kitty is 2/2, i would play Kird ape over it any day then since it wouldn't warp the manabase into the monstrosity he is playing.


Also, again mental misstep is the beezkneez. Yust wanted to get that out of my system.
Also, dismember has awsome art en can act as 1 mana removal.

1{PB}{PB}
Instant
({PB} can be paid with either {B} or 2 life.)
Target creature gets -5/-5 until end of turn.

This is for the Dark Tempo ***** variant obviously.

[Chikenbok]

STP is actually kind of counter productive here.
He wants the kitty because it's faster, but giving them life with STP counter acts this.

The luxury of having 20 dmg on burn spells to toss at the opponent sure makes up for the fact that you unkillable mongoose yust kicked for 1 for 2/3 turns.

He also doens't mind if the Kitty is 2/2, i would play Kird ape over it any day then since it wouldn't warp the manabase into the monstrosity he is playing.


Also, again mental misstep is the beezkneez. Yust wanted to get that out of my system.
Also, dismember has awsome art en can act as 1 mana removal.

1{PB}{PB}
Instant
({PB} can be paid with either {B} or 2 life.)
Target creature gets -5/-5 until end of turn.

This is for the Dark Tempo ***** variant obviously.

I'd play dismember for its art over its ability. But that's just me.

[Volrath]

I'd play dismember for its art over its ability. But that's just me.

Don't know, it's removal for 1 when it's needed.

[troopatroop]

He also doens't mind if the Kitty is 2/2, i would play Kird ape over it any day then since it wouldn't warp the manabase into the monstrosity he is playing.



Attacking for 2 is often still twice as much damage as the Mongoose, and that's still alot better, but don't pretend Kird Ape competes with Nacatl. I was simply pointing our that, you don't need to fetch the Plateau to grow the Nacatl, and it's always possible to attack for 2 once and have all blue lands in Tundra and Volcanic. On the manabase, There's 17 Blue sources, 14 Green Sources, and 13 Sources of white. What's the problem?

[Volrath]

. What's the problem?

Wasteland, removal and consitancy mostly.
Look, ik get where you're coming from, but i think you really underestimate shroud and a more stable manabase.
Maybe Scythe Tiger can help you now that daze will most likely be cut in favor of mental misstep.

[troopatroop]

Scythe Tiger is horrid, and we all know that. People are just resistant to change, imo. I have to rebuild my manabase?, oh noes!

I feel like Nimble Mongoose is overestimated. It's a relic of the past, give it a year. I don't think it's kept up with the pace of the format.

[Volrath]

Scythe Tiger is horrid, and we all know that. People are just resistant to change, imo..

I really love this sentence.

Also, rebuilding manabases to support a critter that doesn't win games sounds much more horrid then the tiger.

[troopatroop]

I really love this sentence.

Also, rebuilding manabases to support a critter that doesn't win games sounds much more horrid then the tiger.

I've won many games with Wild Nacatl alone, protecting him for the win the whole way. Storm combo is trumped.

All things in degrees! Yes you need to make a new manabase that works, but it's not actually difficult or clumsy in practice.

[Volrath]

I've won many games with Wild Nacatl alone, protecting him for the win the whole way. Storm combo is trumped.

Isn't stormcombo trumped because of the fact that we can play 16 counters postboard and insane tempo postboard?.

[troopatroop]

Isn't stormcombo trumped because of the fact that we can play 16 counters postboard and insane tempo postboard?.

This deck has a strong combo matchup, but Nacatl makes them all stronger. They have less time and life to Ad Nauseam with and Nacatl usually gets in for 4-8 more damage than Nimble Mongoose would've. It's all about pressure against these decks, and having more can only be good.

[Dark Ritual]

If you're playing wild nacatl in a thresh deck that is blue based you're doing it wrong. Really, 3 color's the the max for this deck unless you want to play more land with our very low curve. This isn't zoo for crying out loud.

Darn, so storm combo is getting beaten up by the kitty and storm combo is our favorable MU already since we have countermagic, land destruction, and a very low curve. I see no reason to play wild nacatl over mongoose due to it's lack of shroud which is why mongoose is still played if you didn't get the memo having shroud is king in legacy.

I wouldn't play dismember in the black splash. Unless you're that worried about tombstalker at which point I would suggest go for the throat over it because GftT gets stalker just as well. And dismember rarely kills kotr, terravore, and sometimes even goyf can survive it. I don't see a reason to run the card over snuff out even because you pay 4 life for both cards unless hardcast for 3 or 4 mana.

[GGoober]

I've won many games with Wild Nacatl alone, protecting him for the win the whole way. Storm combo is trumped.

All things in degrees! Yes you need to make a new manabase that works, but it's not actually difficult or clumsy in practice.

To be fair, storm combo is a favorable matchup whether you're playing Mongoose or Nacatl. They don't get past the bottleneck of counterspell, they don't win. I've won more games with Mongoose than with Tarmogoyf and I'm not even lying. Mongoose is turned on by turn 3, which is argubly slower than Nacatl, but Goose almost always gets in there all the time because your opponents can never do anything to it outside of blocking it. There are a ton more outs for an opponents facing Nacatl than facing Goose (they can now block or burn/STP it). The argument shouldn't be constructed on "I have a million outs to their removal" because the same argument applies to Goose "I have a million outs to their creatures". The very fact is that Nacatl wins faster (well situationally to be fair if you don't get Wastelanded), and Mongoose is much less prone to getting removaed than Nacatl is.

In any case, I don't think it's the right move to replace Mongoose, but I'm open to the idea to run them together. Many times, Goyf feels much weaker than Nacatl in Zoo, than Mongoose in Tempo Thresh. Goyf is still as best you can ever get at the 2-drop, but there are many games where Mongoose is more valuable than Goyf, simply because of the shroud.

I think Misstep is pretty huge improvement for Dark Thresh over Canadian Thresh. Being able to ride a Bob to victory with denser protection against removal is critical here. I personally would play GFTT and smother over the new -5/-5 removal in dark Thresh. It's too life-costy flipping that to bobs and trying to play it with Phyrexian mana and it still misses relevant targets (bigger goyfs, knights, dreadnoughts). Smother is still the best, and in Team-America heavy games, GFTT is better.

[Scordata]

Correct, Metalwalker. Thanks for saying everything I was gonna say. I owe you a beer.

I will be cutting 1 Ponder/1 Daze/1 Stifle for +3 Mental Missteps.
Bob thresh in the hands of a competent player will be a huge force to be reckoned with.

[Volrath]

Correct, Metalwalker. Thanks for saying everything I was gonna say. I owe you a beer.

I will be cutting 1 Ponder/1 Daze/1 Stifle for +3 Mental Missteps.
Bob thresh in the hands of a competent player will be a huge force to be reckoned with.

I wouldn't cut Stifle's.

Perhaps cutting a spell snare or possibly a second daze.

[Dark Ritual]

Yeah I would cut 2 ponder's and 2 daze's for 4 missteps right now. 6 library manipulation pieces can work and daze is weak right now except for winning counterwars (sometimes). Originally I thought I would just straight up cut dazes for MM's but daze is still relevant somewhat and making people play around it when you run 2 is a virtual advantage. Stifle is too good to be trimmed down; stifle + waste is still one of the most devastating plays in legacy.

Then again 4 misstep's might be too much it will have to be tested. 3 might be good but if you run dark thresh you might want 4 to protect bob from spot removal. But bob also clashes with misstep being cast for 2 life because with bob you sometimes take a lot of damage from during the course of a game especially if it sticks.

[Chikenbok]

Yeah I would cut 2 ponder's and 2 daze's for 4 missteps right now. 6 library manipulation pieces can work and daze is weak right now except for winning counterwars (sometimes). Originally I thought I would just straight up cut dazes for MM's but daze is still relevant somewhat and making people play around it when you run 2 is a virtual advantage. Stifle is too good to be trimmed down; stifle + waste is still one of the most devastating plays in legacy.

Then again 4 misstep's might be too much it will have to be tested. 3 might be good but if you run dark thresh you might want 4 to protect bob from spot removal. But bob also clashes with misstep being cast for 2 life because with bob you sometimes take a lot of damage from during the course of a game especially if it sticks.

Yeah, but generally speaking the damage taken from a resolved bob that manages to stick is negligable assuming that it sticks. The CA generated is well worth the life loss from the flip triggers. Usually, if a bob sticks.. you win the game.

[a-slice-of-cake]

I'm really cautious about cutting Ponders. Not just because I love Ponder -- it's also the only sorcery in our deck, and that grows our Goyf. We can't count on the opponent to drop a sorcery all the time. For the UGr build, I think cutting 1 Daze, 1 Snare (if you run 4), and maybe a Fire//Ice for 3 Mental Missteps. I know Fire//Ice is a sacred cow to slaughter, but there are just too many situations where its an expensive, dead card anymore. (I still love it though.)

4 Missteps may be too many, but I think 1 in the board and 3 in the main makes our aggro matchups that much better, with or without vial.

BTW: Never base creature decisions on beating Storm. We're friggin' Thresh. We eat storm combo for breakfast. Period.

[Ozymandias]

I think Misstep is really, really good, and as soon as New Phyrexia comes out I plan to have 4 taking up, for the time being, the 2 flex, 1 Fire/Ice, and 1 unsure slot (most likely daze). I'm also going to be changing the sideboard up to include Surgical Extraction, which is really good versus Thresh's worst matchups (Loam, Ichorid) while also being pretty fun versus combo decks. I also want Gilded Drake, Pyroclasm, and probably Spell Pierce or pyroblast to round things out. If I try out dark thresh, then I have 6 slots to put Misstep and all the removal I want. I think you can safely cut a ponder here since you have bob for digging purposes, at which point, if you fill out the playset of missteps, you have 3 slots available for removal with no further cuts, though I might shave a daze at that point.

[troopatroop]

Howabout this list? Red is a more natural splash color for Nacatl.

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Sower of Temptation

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Mental Misstep

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

4 Stifle
3 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt

4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Tundra
3 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn

I went for Red over White in removal, and settled at 19 land. 6 Cantrips make it easier to find a threat, and Sower is insane with Misstep.

Just a thought! :D

[a-slice-of-cake]

While I agree that Sower is nuts with misstep, I just don't see how our deck is going to cast a 4-mana spell at sorcery speed -- and if we do, how not to invite the opponent to sucker-punch us.

I really like Fire//Ice more than Chain Lightning. Denying a color of mana on their upkeep or stopping a Tombstalker or Knight from attacking/blocking is a big deal, especially if we can draw a card while we're at it. And every once in a while you can taze a couple X/1's at instant speed or make your opponent block Goyf with their Goyf and finish it off.

And just play the Goose. He's so solid, even if he isn't explosive.

[Shtchepahn]

I tested my build with 4 MMs a bit, and it gives so much needed Bob protection as well as 1st turn response to whatever we see while on the draw.

[Jonathan Alexander]

What did you cut for it? I'm working on a Dark Thresh list on my own, and I'm really not sure what to cut for it. There's not much room for any cards. Right now I'm considering to actually cut Nimble Mongoose because with Mental Misstep, we have more ways to protect our other creatures, but only having four Tarmogoyf to really beat down is something that bothers me. So I'm thinking about adding another threat again; I still have two flex slots if I'm running 4 pieces of removal, 15 countermagic and 8 creatures.
Also, I don't think this will find its way in Canadian Threshold maindecks. There's no room for it and the deck already has plenty of ways to deal with your opponents' one-drops. Also, it has Nimble Mongoose and therefore doesn't really need additional protection against spotremoval either. This might be a pretty cool sideboard card though.

[datanaga]

Hi all,
this list I'm currently playing:

* 4 x Dark Confidant
* 2 x Smother
* 3 x Ghastly Demise
* 4 x Brainstorm
* 4 x Daze
* 4 x Force of Will
* 4 x Ponder
* 4 x Spell Snare (2snare/2pierce)
* 4 x Stifle
* 4 x Nimble Mongoose
* 4 x Tarmogoyf

* 4 x Misty Rainforest
* 4 x Polluted Delta
* 3 x Tropical Island
* 4 x Underground Sea
* 4 x Wasteland

I tried playing 18 lands and wasn't satisfied, because keeping 1 land hand with ponder is a huge tempo loss (btw ponder did't find second land too often), on first turn I need open mana for stifle / spell pierce.

I would like to play 3 Mental Misstep in future, cut 1x snare, 1x demise, 1x daze

[a-slice-of-cake]

I know you want to fill your graveyard as much as possible, but I highly recommend maxing out on duals before fetches. Sure, a fetch fills your yard and gets whichever one you need, but the 1 life is often relevant in a race and it makes you much more vulnerable against other stifle decks. I can see why you want 19 land though. How is Smother working?

[datanaga]

Thanks for recommendation, I will try it.

I prefer Smother over GFTT and it works well, in my meta are more affinity, painter, dreadnought decks than Tombstalker decks. BTW against painter naming black I was screwed with GFTT and demise.

[a-slice-of-cake]

That's something I hadn't considered, good to think about.

Another reason you should run 4x each dual: It sucks like no other to have 3 of your Red (or in your case, Green, so even worse) sources killed in some fashion and to fetch for the last one... only to realize there isn't one.

[luudes]

So I have been messing around with a tempo thresh build similar to the NLthresh that has its own thread. I got down to 4 goyfs as the only green in the deck so I decided to cut them (I was running a UBg shell) and have switched to UBr. Rough list:
4 phyrexian crusader
4 dark confidant
2 trinket mage
3 grim lavamancer

1 basilisk collar
1 top
1 EE

4 FoW
4 Stifle
4 Go for the throat
4 hymn
4 Daze
2 Umezawas Jitte
2 Jace TMS

20 lands
4 waste
3 sea
3 volcanic
1 mountain
1 swamp
1 island
7 fetch

This build just crushed team america repeatedly but I havent tested against much else. Crusader is just a beast of a finisher and is very often better at fighting Gofys than your own goyf. I know this is getting a bit away from the standard tempo thresh builds but I see this as one direction the deck could be taken and would welcome comments

[Shtchepahn]

To fit 4 Mental Missteps, I cut:
1 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
1 Go for the Throat

My removal suite used to be 3 Ghastly Demise and 2 GftT, but MM is a great answer to many threats, so I decided to reduce it to 4 slots, and because I do not want any 1-ofs, I moved 4th Ghastly Demise from SB to MD, and keep additional removal in form of 3 Diabolic Edicts in SB.

[Charlatan]

To fit 4 Mental Missteps, I cut:
1 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
1 Go for the Throat

My removal suite used to be 3 Ghastly Demise and 2 GftT, but MM is a great answer to many threats, so I decided to reduce it to 4 slots, and because I do not want any 1-ofs, I moved 4th Ghastly Demise from SB to MD, and keep additional removal in form of 3 Diabolic Edicts in SB.

It doesnt make any sense to me.

Why did you cut GftF?

I really dislike this Black tempo version. But my point is: If you cut the card (a removal creature) is cause you don't need it!

I'm really thinking about running MM in my Ugr version, but this is nonsense...

and bobs in this deck sux hard!

[Dark Ritual]

@ Charlatan: Dark confidant is the best 2 drop in legacy. Deal with it. You can stand beside Ugr can thresh all you want but the fact is there is no source of CA in the red version while the black version has confidant which is why I made the switch to UGb. And guess what? Team america seems to be really popular lately and where has can. thresh been? Canadian thresh hasn't been making waves since 2008 for a reason. Why? Because bolt and fire//ice don't kill tarmogoyf. Or kotr. Or terravore. Or ANYTHING scary for that matter.

Go for the throat <<<<<< smother. Only reason to run GftT is if your meta is infested with tombstalker. Otherwise smother is better because it hits painter's servant, arcbound ravager, all those random artifact creatures...along with the rest of the format. Ghastly demise is good because it's 1 mana if smother were 1 mana it would be instantly replaced with the 1 mana smother but this isn't the case. Ghastly demise is pretty solid though at least in my experiences with the deck.

For MM I'm still debating on what to cut but it will probably be a 4 of in my list post NPH.

[Charlatan]

@ Dark Ritual: I'm not standing for red or black version. I don't care about any one choice.

If you think that bob's CA is what you need in the deck, so be it.

I won't argue about goyf, kotr, etc... but you are wrong....

My point was, you run black for creatures removal, so if you cut demise, smother or whatever for MM, there is no reason to run Black!

Or the removals are for the 1cc creatures?

[Jonathan Alexander]

He didn't cut his removal entirely, he only went down to four slots maindeck, which is reasonable in my opinion. Now he also has Mental Misstep to counter early stuff like Wild Nacatl, Steppe Lynx or Goblin Lackey. Seems like a good choice since Mental Misstep also helps protecting Dark Confidant. For my UBG-list I really think I want four Mental Misstep in the maindeck. I'm just not sure what to cut for it, since I still want to run 12 creatures and at least four pieces of removal. Cutting Daze doesn't seem like a good move either, I'm winning so many games because of that card. Countering Knight Of The Reliquary is pretty huge. Apart from that, I also want to run 19 lands since basics are awesome. There are way too many Wastelands running around right now. And by the way, has anyone tried running Darkblast in this deck? I'm running it in Team America, where it's pretty much much awesome. Killing that turn one Noble Hierarch is a rather strong play.

[Cenarius]

Some thoughts:

You should play 4 Mental Missteps, not 3. You always want the card in your openingshand, just to have an unbelievable out against all tier decks. Those are the decks you care about anyway.


Dark confidant is the best 2 drop in legacy. Deal with it.

Amen to this.
The card was sick before Mental Misstep. The card just got broken thanks to a free Swords to Plowshars counter in certain matchups.

I also saw some guys suggesting cutting 1 Daze or 1 Ponder. To me, this is just bollocks. Daze is vitally important and so is Ponder.
To me, -2 Spell Pierce, -1 Removal and -1 Nimble Mongoose is the correct move.

I have no doubt that UGb Tempo Threshold is superior to the red version. However, the red version isn't dead by all means. I've seen several good results, including one of mine, with the red version.

[Volrath]

I have no doubt that UGb Tempo Threshold is superior to the red version. However, the red version isn't dead by all means. I've seen several good results, including one of mine, with the red version.

Didn't Goobafish win a GPT for RI with it, going 9-0 orso?.

[neckfire]

Didn't Goobafish win a GPT for RI with it, going 9-0 orso?.

Where is his list?

[bizovski]

Where is his list?

few pages back ... it's a version with 3 chain lightnings

[Charlatan]

Didn't Goobafish win a GPT for RI with it, going 9-0 orso?.

Thanks man!

I was feeling lazy to argue with this guy...

People only read what they wanna read...

I wouldnt feel safe to run fow and bobs in the same deck or even loose 2 hit points to save my them. If someone kill him, i jus thope to draw one of the another 3 with m bs or ponder...

[Volrath]

Thanks man!

I was feeling lazy to argue with this guy...

People only read what they wanna read...

I wouldnt feel safe to run fow and bobs in the same deck or even loose 2 hit points to save my them. If someone kill him, i jus thope to draw one of the another 3 with m bs or ponder...

Since you play ponder and brainstorm the chances of revealling a fow with Bob is slim.
Also, if a Bob stick the CA simply wins you games. Mental misstep helps to asure that.

I think that with the release of NPH, black ***** is the way to go for sure, simply because Bob's power can't be ignored.

[Scordata]

Thanks man!

I was feeling lazy to argue with this guy...

People only read what they wanna read...

I wouldnt feel safe to run fow and bobs in the same deck or even loose 2 hit points to save my them. If someone kill him, i jus thope to draw one of the another 3 with m bs or ponder...
You're so right bro. Confidant is just unplayable trash with full 4 cards cmc >2 in the deck. Who the fuck wants extra cards for life? I mean, Necropotence could just easily be unbanned because any deck with it would lose to burn and decks that lose to burn suck. Legacy is all about high life totals and fast direct damage. Just play Lightning Bolt in your sweet thresh deck and you can't lose to anyone without it.

[a-slice-of-cake]

I'm deciding whether I want to convert my Can Thresh (which I do love dearly, for reasons which may include Firespout and Pyroblast in my board) to Team America or to UGB (Now with more Bob!)...

Suggestions?

[frenchy-man]

The link to Gooba's article in the primer is outdated. Can someone link it again ?

[spartan117]

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=7977

[a-slice-of-cake]

The difficulty with fast aggro in general and vial decks in particular have me going back to Red as my splash like it always does. How does Black avoid being downright slaughtered by the likes of Zoo, Gobbos, and fish?

[Cenarius]

My sideboard in 2010 looked like this:

3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Disfigure
2 Mind Harness
1 Submerge
3 Pithing Needle
3 Extirpate

My sideboard in 2011 looks like:
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Disfigure
3 Mind Harness
6 open slots that have yet to be determined. Probably still some graveyard hate, Sylvan Library and maybe 1 or 2 Pithing Needle's.

Phyrexian Dreadnought slaughters Goblins and Merfolk. Disfigures act as more removal, which is pretty good aswell in those matchups.
Mind Harness on Knight of the Reliquary just gives you wins on it's own.
Graveyardhate is needed to cope with dredge/loam/43 land etc.
Sylvan Library for control and mirror.
1/2 Pithing needle's for Vial and random decks.

[Cthuloo]

To fit 4 Mental Missteps, I cut:
1 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
1 Go for the Throat

My removal suite used to be 3 Ghastly Demise and 2 GftT, but MM is a great answer to many threats, so I decided to reduce it to 4 slots, and because I do not want any 1-ofs, I moved 4th Ghastly Demise from SB to MD, and keep additional removal in form of 3 Diabolic Edicts in SB.

I used to play 4 Demise and 2 Smother, and with MM I was thinking about cutting the GD and going to 4 Smother. The rationale is that MM should help you to eliminate fast critters, and this was what GD was for, while Smother should deal with bigger creatures. One can always pack more fast removal in the board (e.g. disfigure) if needed.
For the rest I think that one should play the full 12 free counters. This allows you to tap out freely on turn one and two, and this was an issue sometimes, especially vs combo, where you want to put out a fast clock and have disruption avalilable at the same time. I will probably keep the spell snares also, since with misstep you can completely cover turn one and turn two (and even if you don't have them, your opponents have to take them into account, like they do for daze).
What I am thinking to do in the end is going from

4 Demise
2 Smother
2 Pierce

to


4 Smother
4 Misstep

and probably pack 2/3x pierce and 2/3x extra removal in the board.

@ Cenarius: how did you find Sylvan Library? The deck already packs Confidant, BS and Ponder, and I usually found the package to be redundant enough. I was thinking more to Vendillion Clique vs control and combo.

[Cenarius]

I know from my Bant experience (tested it pretty heavily due to Green Sun's Zenith which is still an amazing card tbh) that Sylvan Library is pretty much the nuts, as a two-off.

The card is sick against Control.
The card is sick against the Mirror/Agro-Control matchups in general.
The card is good against Zoo. Sylvan Library on the table wins you the game, in general.
The card is ok against Tribal. The card acts as top, though with a well timed 4 life (drawing Goyf + Removal) is sometimes gamewinning on itself.
The card is too slow against Combo, though 1 activation may already be enough to draw 2 counters instead of a land/creature that is on top.

This deck already has 4 ways of generating Card-advantage, though playing 5 or 6 is, in general, better against certain matchups. I want him in the mainboard, but there's simply no more room left in this deck.
Any deck that doesn't play Dark Confidant, that does play green and is agro-control should play 1 or 2 Sylvan Library's, period.

[Cthuloo]

You seem to be really enthusiastic about the card, I will give it a shot. Thanks for sharing your considerations.

[frenchy-man]

Could you explain more in details why library would be good in such a tempo oriented deck ? Because to my mind it seems that even if it is a good late game card, it does not fit in the tempo strategy at all. What's more which slots would you remove to play it ? it already seems hard to find room for MM.
I read the primer by Goobafish, very interesting and well-written.

In Europe there is a huge tournament soon, and merfolk could be very played. Do you think that Canadian thresh has its place in such a meta ? I do believe in it, as sideboard options like REB or grim can be very efficient against those decks, but I wanted more opinions.

[Cenarius]

Could you explain more in details why library would be good in such a tempo oriented deck ? Because to my mind it seems that even if it is a good late game card, it does not fit in the tempo strategy at all. What's more which slots would you remove to play it ? it already seems hard to find room for MM.

Let me take this broader.

(Dark) Tempo Threshold is a deck that trades 1 for 1 or, in case of Force of Will, 1 for 2. This means that usually your deck will be in topdeck mode after turn 4 or 5 (depending on your opponents' deck). Dark Tempo Threshold is pretty strong at trading 1 for 1's, because it has (good) removal-spells, Spell snare's & Mental Misstep's & Daze (which create Tempo), etc. After turn 4 your deck must be in a winning position (by creating an superior board position), in order to win the game. This can be done through Disruption, alla Stifle/Wasteland, or Cardadvantage.

Dark Confidant supllies Cardadvantage and therefore more disruption, more creatures, more removal etc. Opponents can't deal with such amounts of Cardadvantage, therefore games usually end after it stuck.
Sylvan Library works exactly the same, though a little bit different. The card is fully operational after turn 3/4/5 creating Cardquality (you don't have less chance of bad topdecks) and/or Cardadvantage, without being vulnerable to creature removal (which has clear benefits but also some disadvantages in the sense that it can't attack). For example: in the control matchups, you'll simply draw an extra card each turn (till about 8 lifes), because they have no clock.

Dark Tempo Threshold is a deck that combines Disruption and Tempo with Cardadvantage (alla Dark Confidant). Having more 'Dark Confidant-ish' cards in your deck (against certain matchups) is pretty good. Let me rephrase that: more ways of Cardadvantage is always a good thing.
Therefore I believe that Sylvan Library should be put in your sideboard against Control( and agro-control).

If you have further questions, please PM me.

[a-slice-of-cake]

Could you explain more in details why library would be good in such a tempo oriented deck ? Because to my mind it seems that even if it is a good late game card, it does not fit in the tempo strategy at all. What's more which slots would you remove to play it ? it already seems hard to find room for MM.
I read the primer by Goobafish, very interesting and well-written.

In Europe there is a huge tournament soon, and merfolk could be very played. Do you think that Canadian thresh has its place in such a meta ? I do believe in it, as sideboard options like REB or grim can be very efficient against those decks, but I wanted more opinions.

I absolutely think Can. Thresh has a place in the meta, as it's got (in my experience) a great merfolk matchup with a competent pilot packing a little hate in the board. The hate can be broad, too -- I use Firespout and Pithing Needle, personally. I rarely lose to Merfolk because our removal spells are so damn efficient and we have less problems with opposing Dazes.

Feel free to point and laugh if they're playing Standstill.

[Charlatan]

Has anyone tested Mental Misstep?

[MC_EM86]

Mental Misstep is great. You got an other answer for a first Turn Lackey, Vial and you could protect your creatures from Swords to Plowshares. You also got a solution für Phyrexian Dreadnought and each Combo Matchup is nearly 75%. I tested a lot at BoM in Annecy and i will play 3 Mental Misstep.

[Charlatan]

Ok, but I'm running the Red Version and i can't think of any card that i can cut from the deck...

[ac3eb]

Ok, but I'm running the Red Version and i can't think of any card that i can cut from the deck...

For starters, 1 Fire//Ice, 1 Daze, 1 spell snare, 1 flex slot (varies from list to list).

[Koby]

I know from my Bant experience (tested it pretty heavily due to Green Sun's Zenith which is still an amazing card tbh) that Sylvan Library is pretty much the nuts, as a two-off.

...

This deck already has 4 ways of generating Card-advantage, though playing 5 or 6 is, in general, better against certain matchups. I want him in the mainboard, but there's simply no more room left in this deck.
Any deck that doesn't play Dark Confidant, that does play green and is agro-control should play 1 or 2 Sylvan Library's, period.

I agree with this for the same reasons, but I only run 1. The card is invaluable against Black based disrupting in two aspects: 1) hiding your threats until you're ready to cast them 2) recover cards in hand when you need the extra push.

Jace acts to provide the same advantages, but his 4cc mana cost is usually difficult to get to when facing Wasteland/Stifle/Sinkhole effects. Hence, Library is preferred. It also allows you to draw "extra" cards against certain matchups that can't apply pressure too quickly like Lands, Landstill, High Tide, etc. This puts the favor highly in your side as drawing 1-2 extra cards per turn is a sure-fire way to win games.

[Hanni]

Since I figured this thread gets alot more attention than the Blue Zoo thread in N&D, I wanted to post a list that I've been destroying people with.

U/R/G/w Tempo Zoo

// Lands (18)
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [R] Volcanic Island
2 [R] Tropical Island
2 [R] Taiga
1 [R] Plateau
1 [R] Savannah

// Creatures (16)
4 [R] Kird Ape
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells (26)
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
3 [LG] Chain Lightning

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 1 [DIS] Spell Snare
SB: 2 [NE] Submerge
SB: 2 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [FNM] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [FNM] Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll

I know, no Stifle/Wasteland. That's a pretty defining aspect of Tempo Thresh. However, I'd rather be committing creatures to the board during the early game, rather than holding U open for Stifle. Wasteland only taps for mana to cast a few spells in the deck, otherwise it's pretty much strictly a spell, and I think focus'ing on dropping guys (and attacking), countering everything, and burning out blockers and then sending burn to the dome, is a more productive means of winning the game.

This deck is alot more aggressive during the early game than a typical Canadian Threshold list, which capitalizes on the early tempo gains far more than the traditional lists. With so many cheap 1cc spells and free countermagic, the deck is extremely fast. The deck puts alot of damage through the red zone during the early and midgame, while preventing the opponent from doing very much. It's a pretty scary combination of cards.

The deck is basically Blue Zoo, which there is already a thread for in N&D, but I figured the idea would get more attention if I also posted my list in here. Sorry to hijack this thread. Carry on.

[CaBaaL]

Creatures 8
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants 29
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Fire / Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Snare
4 stifle

Sorceries 4
4 Ponder

Lands 18

1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

i have 2 empty spots for creatures, I am thinking to add 2 V. cliques but I wanted to try something new. Anyone ever tried 2 Serendib Efreet or Burning-Tree Shaman ?

[kues]

Actually you have only 1 spot...

[Anarky87]

Yeah, you'd have to shave another card to fit in 2 more creatures. I played the 4/4/1 of Goose/Goyf/Clique for awhile and it was decent. I believe BTS has been tried in the past and was underwhelming. As is the Efreet. You could try Sea Drake, but if it was me, I'd rather stick with the Clique.

[troopatroop]

I think Nimble Mongoose is worse than Wild Nacatl. With Mental Misstep as protection, theres little reason not to pick the faster 1 drop. Against Merfolk or Combo, Nimble Mongoose is the worst card in your deck! He's turned on turn 3-4 at the soonest, and they're already winning the game. Hanni's list is tight.

[Anarky87]

With Mental Misstep as protection, theres little reason not to pick the faster 1 drop.

Do you always have MM or something to protect your cat? Every time you give that example, you always have MM to save Nacatl. I'd rather play Goose that I don't have to babysit and by the natural progression of the game, becomes larger and still can't be touched. Saving MM to protect my Goyf/Bob sounds more appealing than blowing it to save an inferior creature. Or in that example do you also have MM ready as well?


Against Merfolk or Combo, Nimble Mongoose is the worst card in your deck!Actually, I think the Ghastly Demise+Smother are probably the 'worst' cards in my deck against combo.


He's turned on turn 3-4 at the soonest, and they're already winning the game.If he's turned on by turn 3-4, it means you've interacted in someway with them (countered spells, killed creatures, etc). So how are they 'already winning the game'? If you've disrupted Merfolk/Combo turns 1-4 and they've already won by then, I don't see how Nacatl helps any more or less. Unless he's swinging/blocking for 6-7 a turn. Which if he can then I will definitely play 4.

I just don't see any real reason to drop Goose for the cat other than some people don't like him. Which doesn't really do it for me. And theoretical scenarios where I always have MM to protect the cat doesn't really help.

[CaBaaL]

Yeah, you'd have to shave another card to fit in 2 more creatures. I played the 4/4/1 of Goose/Goyf/Clique for awhile and it was decent. I believe BTS has been tried in the past and was underwhelming. As is the Efreet. You could try Sea Drake, but if it was me, I'd rather stick with the Clique.

thanks for the advise i will add 1 clique and find one more spot for an other one.

As for wild Nacatl she is a great cat but in a 4 color deck that needs turn 1 tropical (for daze and Nacatl) and turn 2 plateau to be 3/3 in a place that everyone play wastelands and some play stifles (there are only 2 white lands in the deck so most of the time I guess Nacatl is smaller than a full grown mongoose.)
Yeah i know you will have MM for his MM and for his stifle too, also for his burn/sword on the Nacatl. MM is only 4 times in your deck and stifles, swords, bolts are 4 times each on your opponent's (and he has 4 MMs in too!) so I prefer taking a lowly mongoose that if he survive the counter wars can win some games single handed (landstill that is a huge in my meta) than hopping to draw 4 missteps.

[Cthuloo]

To be honest I've found Mongoose to be my best beater very often. I find that shroud is still very relevant. This is true of course for more traditional Tempo Thresh lists, that pack enough control to ride the single Mongoose to victory. Hanni's list is more different from TT than it may look from the card choices to me. That list wants to resolve an early beater or two and protect them, while TT wants to gain a small advantage, and then profit. Hanni's deck looks very interesting and is probably pretty strong, but IMO it has little to to with traditional TT (I know you already specified that you posted here for exposure, I just wanted to make things clearer in the Mongoose vs. Nacatl debate).

[Dia_Bot]

I have to agree with Cthuloo. I've won countless games on the back of nimble mongoose. Nacatl may be better in Hanni's list but honestly it isn't TT anymore.

[Scordata]

I ran Canadian Thresh with missteps at the GP to an x-3 finish.

It was a good choice, and I only dropped games due to mana screw. It hoses all the bug control lists, but I've found that merfolk apparently gets the god draw every time :)

[Anarky87]

I ran Canadian Thresh with missteps at the GP to an x-3 finish.

It was a good choice, and I only dropped games due to mana screw. It hoses all the bug control lists, but I've found that merfolk apparently gets the god draw every time :)

Did you feel the deck overall was still a good choice? Also, what deck, if any, gave you the most trouble.

[Dark Ritual]

How strong is canadian thresh with misstep? I might go back to canadian if it proves to be better than dark thresh in utilizing misstep.

Nacatl is awful when compared to mongoose. There is one deck that should run nacatl and that deck is zoo. Hanni's deck is interesting sure but it's 4 color's. I refuse to play one more color in an already tight manabase to destabilize our mana further. Shroud is also VERY good. Mongoose has won me games due to its shroud where tarmogoyf would not. And I like that it costs 1 mana so you don't have to tap out for mongoose when you have a spell snare in hand or stifle or something that costs mana to cast.

And against combo I find ghastly demise and smother to be very bad this may be just me but I find that putting combo on a clock is more relevant than smothering a goblin token at which point we've likely lost.

[Cenarius]

How strong is canadian thresh with misstep? I might go back to canadian if it proves to be better than dark thresh in utilizing misstep.

And against combo I find ghastly demise and smother to be very bad this may be just me but I find that putting combo on a clock is more relevant than smothering a goblin token at which point we've likely lost.

Let me give a small equation:

Dark Confidant + MM = Bonkers.

Therefore, Dark Tempo Threshold > Canadian Threshold (It becomes even better when you play a correct (metagamed) sideboard, which most of you don't. I have some pretty good advises for a good 'overall' sideboard, but since everyone ignores me, there is no point of repeating myself over and over).

The combo-matchup with DTT /w Mental Misstep is probably arround 60/65%. If that's still not good enough, you probably should play a Counterbalance with 4 Force, 4 MM, 4 Spell Snare and 2 Counterspell (making the matchup 70/75% in total max.), which has a hard time against all the other decks in the format.

This is my opinion.

Furthermore, don't post 4c TempoZoo lists on this thread. It makes this thread look bad, really bad. If you have comments about this statement, feel free to pm me.

[Anarky87]

Dark Confidant + MM = Bonkers.

Therefore, Dark Tempo Threshold > Canadian Threshold Qft. It would have to take something very major to turn me back to Red. The strength DC gave to the deck before MM was tremendous. I will give Cenarius credit, the one tournament I was able to borrow 3 Dreadnought from a friend (need to buy some of my own), it was just hilarious. Ending games in 2 turns or close to it always took people by surprise.

I used to worry about the aggro match a little because my meta tends to be very creature oriented. But with tweaking the SB with some extra removal (being that nobody plays any GY related deck), it never was a problem. I just wish there were a few more tournaments around here so I could play the deck more. If I make it over to Indy, I'll most likely be playing this.

[troopatroop]

Nacatl is awful when compared to mongoose. There is one deck that should run nacatl and that deck is zoo. Hanni's deck is interesting sure but it's 4 color's. I refuse to play one more color in an already tight manabase to destabilize our mana further. Shroud is also VERY good. Mongoose has won me games due to its shroud where tarmogoyf would not. And I like that it costs 1 mana so you don't have to tap out for mongoose when you have a spell snare in hand or stifle or something that costs mana to cast.

I just dont understand why people are so stubborn. Zoo is not the only deck that can utilize the speed of Wild Nacatl. If you're not thinkin outside the box, your deck will never get faster

So, let's say they Smother your Wild Nacatl, was this bad for you? No, it wasnt! It's a 1 for 1 card exchange, and they spent 1 more mana than you. Yes you'll need to find another creature to win, but your Tarmogoyfs are now safer, and this deck draws cards. Hanni's build plays 13 beaters, so Nacatl is expendable.

Wild Nacatl is faster than Nimble Mongoose. Against Ad Nauseam, High Tide, Show and Tell, Merfolk, or Painter, putting on a quick clock is your #1 concern. Nimble Mongoose attacks for 1, and that's unacceptable. It may feel safer to you to have shroud, but you're far too afraid to lose your 1 drop. Trop into Volcanic sees Nacatl attack for two, and that is fine!

I don't really care if you're all too stubborn to see the light. Most people on these boards are fish anyways...

... and Cats LOVE to eat Fish.

[I am the brainwasher]

I just dont understand why people are so stubborn. Zoo is not the only deck that can utilize the speed of Wild Nacatl. If you're not thinkin outside the box, your deck will never get faster

So, let's say they Smother your Wild Nacatl, was this bad for you? No, it wasnt! It's a 1 for 1 card exchange, and they spent 1 more mana than you. Yes you'll need to find another creature to win, but your Tarmogoyfs are now safer, and this deck draws cards. Hanni's build plays 13 beaters, so Nacatl is expendable.

Wild Nacatl is faster than Nimble Mongoose. Against Ad Nauseam, High Tide, Show and Tell, Merfolk, or Painter, putting on a quick clock is your #1 concern. Nimble Mongoose attacks for 1, and that's unacceptable. It may feel safer to you to have shroud, but you're far too afraid to lose your 1 drop. Trop into Volcanic sees Nacatl attack for two, and that is fine!

I don't really care if you're all too stubborn to see the light. Most people on these boards are fish anyways...

... and Cats LOVE to eat Fish.

I think that this is based upon the fact that you are able to win games by creating tons of dead cards in the opposing hand/deck when you have a good read at them, especially in combination with disruption. When you can be sure that their hand contain cards that interact with creatures (or nonland permantents) or full of removal its just amazing to getting rid of Tarmos via Brainstorm switching to the control deck.
If you are able to end games so quickly with disruption and Cats that you never care about these things and they dont occure common it is fine, but why relying on the oppinion that you play something superior? I think that the deck plays out different to classical CAN or even Dark Thresh and that is absoluteley fine but there are solid reasons why those lists are common sense.
Dont get that wrong, I like your list and can just encourage everyone to have his own take on Tempo decks (creativity has become rare...) but trying to convince players to the extend is kinda unnecessary. It seems both version do work out fine, (even if youll never be able to make as much good results with the deck as other players did with classical lists, no offense) why not leave it at that?
IMO classical CAN is the way to go with exactly 0 Missteps in the 75. Dont want the card, wont play the card. Call me ignorant but I dont think that the deck needs the card at all and there are also good reasons why the deck hasnt changed since a couple of years (expect its flexslots).

[troopatroop]

I think that this is based upon the fact that you are able to win games by creating tons of dead cards in the opposing hand/deck when you have a good read at them, especially in combination with disruption. When you can be sure that their hand contain cards that interact with creatures (or nonland permantents) or full of removal its just amazing to getting rid of Tarmos via Brainstorm switching to the control deck.
If you are able to end games so quickly with disruption and Cats that you never care about these things and they dont occure common it is fine, but why relying on the oppinion that you play something superior? I think that the deck plays out different to classical CAN or even Dark Thresh and that is absoluteley fine but there are solid reasons why those lists are common sense.

You're right that you can blank removal, and virtual card advantage is great. At that point however, you're committed to your 3/3 winning the game on it's own. Any blocker that stops your plan forces you to run Tarmogoyfs out there, and they will eat those removal spells. Sometimes this works, and sometimes it doesn't. Mishra's Factory is becoming more popular.



Dont get that wrong, I like your list and can just encourage everyone to have his own take on Tempo decks (creativity has become rare...) but trying to convince players to the extend is kinda unnecessary. It seems both version do work out fine, (even if youll never be able to make as much good results with the deck as other players did with classical lists, no offense) why not leave it at that?

Dark Ritual said that Wild Nacatl is awful compared to Nimble Mongoose. This is a fallacy, something I'm trying to disprove. If you like Mongoose, play him! It's my opinion that Nacatl looks too hard to incorporate, or even impossible. Some people just suck at building manabases.


IMO classical CAN is the way to go with exactly 0 Missteps in the 75. Dont want the card, wont play the card. Call me ignorant but I dont think that the deck needs the card at all and there are also good reasons why the deck hasnt changed since a couple of years (expect its flexslots).

And this is where you are wrong. Mental Misstep is absolutely necessary for Tempo based strategies, imo. Aether Vial is GG otherwise.

[Hanni]

Furthermore, don't post 4c TempoZoo lists on this thread. It makes this thread look bad, really bad. If you have comments about this statement, feel free to pm me.

I didn't realize you were a moderator. Wups

@ Shroud

Shroud is really good, and for normal Tempo Thresh decks, he's the clear hands down winner. In my build though, the deck simply doesn't care about Shroud. If I ran Mongoose, then one of my other beaters would eat the removal instead, so it's mostly irrelevant (in my build).

Plus, the deck has 12 free countermagic spells to prevent my opponent from doing much in the early game. More specifically, the 12 free countermagic spells can protect my 3/3 Nacatl, so that I can maximize my damage output.

In my build, Nacatl is much stronger than Mongoose, because Nacatl is far more aggressive (grows to 3/3 on turn 2 rather than turn 4). Plus, Grim Lavamancer is the stone cold nuts in a heavy Merfolk metagame, and you can't really run Nimble Mongoose and Grim Lavamancer in the same deck. So it's not just a matter of comparing Nacatl to Mongoose, but also Grim Lavamancer. Nacatl + Lavamancer has been winning me assloads of games against all sorts of decks.

Not having Shroud also means I can run Jitte in my sideboard, which makes a huge difference against midrange aggro matchups (G/w, The Rock, Aggro Loam, etc).

@ MM + Nacatl

It's not just about having MM to protect Nacatl turn 1. It's also about Daze and Force of Will to protect Nacatl. Mongoose has Shroud, which is great against removal heavy decks, but is mostly unecessary against the standard "4 Plow" decks in the format. Not to mention, those decks out there that run no removal at all (like Merfolk).

@ 4c

My 4c manabase may be a little bit more risky than running a 3c manabase, but I'm also run 18 colored sources vs the normal 14 colored sources that normal Tempo Thresh lists run (14 colored + 4 Wasteland). I haven't had that many issues with my manabase, and nearly 90% of the matchups I've played against have been running 4 Wastelands. Keep in mind that the deck never actually needs white (at least preboard).

---

The reason why I feel like my build has been doing so well is because it capitalizes on the early tempo gains better.

What I mean is, alot of times when I play Tempo Thresh, I'm spending my early tempo gains on cantripping to dig for a threat. The problem with this, is that while my opponent may not have resolved anything through my countermagic (clean board), I'm also working with a clean board. The bigger problem, is that many decks are going to have more powerful threats when they do land one (like a Knight of the Reliquary vs our Mongoose and Goyfs).

With my list, I'm not wasting early tempo by cantripping to sculpt my hand/dig for a threat, because I don't need to. I run redundancy in creatures, countermagic, and removal. So instead of turn 1 hold U open for Stifle (which is a waste of tempo if they don't crack a fetch), turn 2 cast Ponder... I'm going turn 1 Nacatl, turn 2 Kird Ape, swing.

[=^.^= & <:3 )~]

Therefore, Dark Tempo Threshold > Canadian Threshold (It becomes even better when you play a correct (metagamed) sideboard, which most of you don't. I have some pretty good advises for a good 'overall' sideboard, but since everyone ignores me, there is no point of repeating myself over and over).



Cenarius, dare to make a few comments on your most current build (decklist, sideboard strategies, namely against the most prevalent and dangerous decks like GSZ.dec, Merfolks, Junk)? Thanks in advance...

[Henrik]

I ran Canadian Thresh with missteps at the GP to an x-3 finish.

It was a good choice, and I only dropped games due to mana screw. It hoses all the bug control lists, but I've found that merfolk apparently gets the god draw every time :)

Congrats!
Would you mind posting your 75?
(What did you take out for MM, did you use any of the original flex-slots, and what did the SB look like?)

[kues]

My 4 MM slots are: 2 flex slots + 1F/I + 1 Snare + 1 Fow (I play with 1x Vendilion too)

[Charlatan]

I'm really a huge fan of Canadian Thresh and i think that this deck can shine again. But we need to add 4 MM as soon as possible.

And to acomplish that, we have 10 flexible slots 4 F/I, 4 Ponders and 2 Cliques/bouncers/chains.

I think that the rest of the deck is just fine. I really dont want to reduce the numbersof dazes and snares, but i think that this can be tested too.

At the moment, I cut out ponders or MM, and I'm running 2x Cliques, but i really dislike this creature in the deck.

Any thoughts?

[Scordata]

@Henrik: I ran the stock list, cutting 2 flex spots, a daze, and a ponder for 4 mms. I don't know if this was optimal or not, but if you play for value you can make it work. That having been said, I'm no longer comfortable running only 8 threats and 18 lands. I think 20 lands is probably the right number, and that running dark confidant should be the default plan by now. I went with the red splash to deal with merfolk, and while it was the right call for the day, 4 bolts+4fire/ice+2 pyroclasm+4blasts in the sb STILL wasn't enough to deal with all their fish and "get there." This was probably due to such a low threat density. Although, not one Hymn to Tourach resolved against me, which is probably worth mentioning. BUG control is so greedy, and was so popular, that it was the biggest reason I played Stifle that day.

After my last performance at the GP, I'd advise taking this deck in its prior incarnations to large events. We've got a lot of work to do to make it tier 1 again. The deck I personally envision looks something like a cross between Team America and UGb thresh. JTMS should find its way into the 75, without a doubt.

[Scordata]

Just to follow up on my last post, here's a sketch of a decklist I could conceive being relatively strong in the new meta:

Next Level BOBTHRESH:

// Lands
4 [U] Underground Sea
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
3 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
3 [NE] Daze
2 [M10] Ponder
3 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MBS] Go for the Throat
3 [NPH] Mental Misstep
3 [SC] Stifle
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 2 [TO] Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 1 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [NE] Massacre
SB: 2 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker


YMMV, obviously adapt your removal package/sb for your meta. I actually just put this together like, 30 seconds ago. Seems good on paper, though.

[Cenarius]

Your list is pretty weird. Nah, it's really weird.

Mental Misstep should be a 4-off, because you want him every game in your starting 7.
Force of Will should be a 4-off.
Daze is such an important card to create tempo. That card should always be a 4-off in any Tempo deck.

I believe Jace requires a different build with Factory's instead of Nimble Mongoose's, increasing your landcount, creature count in one blow. I'm personally not fund of such a build, because it will contain too many high CC cards (but thats personally), but it's certainly better than the list you proponed.

[kusumoto]

Your list is pretty weird. Nah, it's really weird.

Mental Misstep should be a 4-off, because you want him every game in your starting 7.
Force of Will should be a 4-off.
Daze is such an important card to create tempo. That card should always be a 4-off in any Tempo deck.

I believe Jace requires a different build with Factory's instead of Nimble Mongoose's, increasing your landcount, creature count in one blow. I'm personally not fund of such a build, because it will contain too many high CC cards (but thats personally), but it's certainly better than the list you proponed.

Why would you want to play Factories at all in a tempo deck? I am seriously asking for an explanation, because it looks bad to me so I think I must not get it.

On an unrelated note, can Magic players just stop saying 'Next Level [deckname]' for everything please?

[Cthuloo]

I'm not really convinced about JaceTMS in this deck. One of the huge advantages of TT is having a manabase capable of reliably cast all your spell while running so few lands. Jace requires you to up the land count and maybe to play a basic island, which has a lot of negative effects that compensate the bonus of having Jace. Just to list some of them:

- Higher land count reduces card quality in the long game
- Having to reach 4 lands in play means you can shuffle fewer lands away with brainstorm, which is one of the most powerful plays for this deck
- You also have to burn more valuable cantrips to look for extra lands
- Tapping out on turn 4 is usually a bad idea, since this deck wants to interact at instant speed
- I'm not sure the deck is well suited to protect a Jace long enough to win via his ultimate. Jace takes 6 turns to win, basically the same of a threshed mongoose that you don't need to protect and 2 more than the average goyf (but if goyf survives for a swing or two it puts you closer to victory, while if you lose Jace after a turn or two of fatesealing you have gained a very small advantage).

In the end I'm not sure that it's worth it (I might be wrong of course, since this is only theoretical resoning).

To contribute a bit, my post MM list looks like that at the moment:

// Lands
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou (I know some of you dislike it, but I've been playing it for a long time now, and never regretted)
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest

(fetchland configuration is meant to give the least possible information about what we are playing on turn one)

// Creatures

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf

// Spells

4 Daze
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will
2 Smother
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dismember (testing it)
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [MM] Brainstorm


// Sideboard

2 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
1 Null Rod
1 Phyrexian Revoker (testing)
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Tormod's Crypt (may be extirpate)
2 Vendillion's Clique
2 Spell Pierce

[Dia_Bot]

I have been playing with a similar list for a while and have been liking it so far.
The only big difference is I've tried to incorporate Hymn to tourach in my list and I've thrown out the SB dreadnought plan. Maybe it's just me but i never really liked to keep in stifle against merfolk. :)


fwiw this is the list I'm playing:

lands:
4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs

creatures:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose

Spells:
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
3 Ponder
4 Mental Misstep
3 Ghastly Demise
4 Hymn to Tourach


SB:

3 Submerge
3 Disfigure
1 Ghastly Demise
2 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction

[say no to scurvy]

any thoughts on putrefy in any TA shell along whatever GFTTs/GD/smother combinations given the current meta?

[Cthuloo]

@Dia_Bot: any comments on Hymn? Is it hard to have double black on turn two? About dreadnought: I'm quite happy with it, and board it in quite often, not only vs tribal. It's just so unexpected sometimes. In addition, I like the possibility to be very aggressive post board, with Dreaddy and Cliques. It helps to win games fast and sometimes it's just needed.

[Dia_Bot]

@Dia_Bot: any comments on Hymn? Is it hard to have double black on turn two? About dreadnought: I'm quite happy with it, and board it in quite often, not only vs tribal. It's just so unexpected sometimes. In addition, I like the possibility to be very aggressive post board, with Dreaddy and Cliques. It helps to win games fast and sometimes it's just needed.

Hymn was actually quite amazing. Having discard in addition to counters offers the advantage of being able to attack certain decks from another angle.
Having double black by turn 2 has never really been a problem with the current manabase. Playing 4 Underground sea and 1 Bayou does help ofcourse.

I see your point about the Dnoughts. I do like the fact that they cause a "have an answer or die" situation to your opponent. But most of the time I felt would have gained more value with another card.
Maybe I could have sided them in more or so, I'll try it out.

[kusumoto]

So you stifle the dreadnought trigger and they misstep your stifle.

In the MM world we're in today stiflenought is basically a 3 card combo instead of 2 isn't it? If you don't have a counter with it, you are constantly risking an easy 2 for 1 against you.

It looks to me like stiflenought is worse then ever.

[illusivek]

Hello! I'm a semi-new legacy player and was hoping to get some insight on Tempo. Currently I play TNT storm combo (TES + Ant Hybrid), and I won my first legacy tournament with it. After long discussion with one of my friends who knows tons about legacy, I've come to the conclusion that storm might not be the deck for me. I love the complexity and intricacy, but heavily dislike the either awful or awesome match ups, and luck based wins like Poker. Tempo Thresh, with it's 50-50 match ups that you can leverage your play skill with, seems like an excellent choice. I only really have the collection value to build one deck, so the choice is important, and it's not easy for me to just switch decks on a whim due to meta change. The reason I'm considering swapping from storm is due to underlying archetypal consistency, which I feel constitutes me switching decks. Naturally, the deck I choose as a "next" deck will be a long-term decision, and thus must be a tier ~1.5 ish deck that will stay constant. I came to the Source hoping that the experience of all those here who know the format so well would help me. I've been looking at Canadian Threshold recently, and like it, but have been informed by people I've spoken to that it's not really in it's prime anymore, and "Team America" is the new threshold. I don't even know if this is true or not, but hopefully you guys can give me some insight on which deck to pick up. Let's stick with decks that run Force of Will though ;)

[CaBaaL]

my meta infested with stoneforged and friends decks, as also with merfolks (some are coming with goblins for this reason), the big green guys decks (rock,bant,zoo) are 0-1%.
My question is simple is canadian thress a good choise in this meta?
merfolk: everything in burn range+red elem blast
stonforge mystic decks: everything in burn range, stupid win conditions (jace/moat/4 crows),+red elem blast and artifact hate
goblins: misstep+burn for his cretures, stifle for his mana denial(u do not need that much mana any way)

[MC_EM86]

I just dont understand why people are so stubborn. Zoo is not the only deck that can utilize the speed of Wild Nacatl. If you're not thinkin outside the box, your deck will never get faster

So, let's say they Smother your Wild Nacatl, was this bad for you? No, it wasnt! It's a 1 for 1 card exchange, and they spent 1 more mana than you. Yes you'll need to find another creature to win, but your Tarmogoyfs are now safer, and this deck draws cards. Hanni's build plays 13 beaters, so Nacatl is expendable.

Wild Nacatl is faster than Nimble Mongoose. Against Ad Nauseam, High Tide, Show and Tell, Merfolk, or Painter, putting on a quick clock is your #1 concern. Nimble Mongoose attacks for 1, and that's unacceptable. It may feel safer to you to have shroud, but you're far too afraid to lose your 1 drop. Trop into Volcanic sees Nacatl attack for two, and that is fine!

I don't really care if you're all too stubborn to see the light. Most people on these boards are fish anyways...

... and Cats LOVE to eat Fish.

There is no problem with being stubborn. I cant understand why you play Wild Nacatl instead of Nimble Mongoose because Nimble Mongoose is the best creature in this Deck!!!!! Much better than Tarmogoyf. I would like to play 8 if its allowed. Wild Nacatl is hopefully a joke. Wild Nacatl is the worsed case because you kill your Manabase with only 14 blue sources! Its really bad to play Taiga for Wild Nacatl because you always want to have the blue Mana. trop into volcanic and attack with nacatl for 2 is not good. If you dont understand it you´re actually playing the wrong deck. sorry.
And if you loose games against Merfolk, ANT or High Tide you definitely playing the wrong deck because the Match ups are nearly 80%.
If people smother WIld Nacatl its really bad for you, because you only play about 8-9 Creatures. why is Tarmogoyf safer? Dont you expect other Removal? Is your opponent only playing 1 creature removal?
--> No! And Tarmogoyf can be the target by Spells or abilities. You are really the worst canadian player ever because you suggest Wild Nacatl! I cant understand it. Really!

[Cenarius]

There is no problem with being stubborn. I cant understand why you play Wild Nacatl instead of Nimble Mongoose because Nimble Mongoose is the best creature in this Deck!!!!! Much better than Tarmogoyf. I would like to play 8 if its allowed. Wild Nacatl is hopefully a joke. Wild Nacatl is the worsed case because you kill your Manabase with only 14 blue sources! Its really bad to play Taiga for Wild Nacatl because you always want to have the blue Mana. trop into volcanic and attack with nacatl for 2 is not good. If you dont understand it you´re actually playing the wrong deck. sorry.
And if you loose games against Merfolk, ANT or High Tide you definitely playing the wrong deck because the Match ups are nearly 80%.
If people smother WIld Nacatl its really bad for you, because you only play about 8-9 Creatures. why is Tarmogoyf safer? Dont you expect other Removal? Is your opponent only playing 1 creature removal?
--> No! And Tarmogoyf can be the target by Spells or abilities. You are really the worst canadian player ever because you suggest Wild Nacatl! I cant understand it. Really!

You don't have to be that harsh. It's always good to explore other area's of tempo.

Combining two decks (Zoo + Canadian Threshold), however, might not be the best thing to do. Brainstorm is good and all (oh, really?), but having an 4-colour manabase is not that good with a metagame where Wasteland is the most frequently played land-card. It might win a tournament, maybe it already won one, but does that mean it's a good deck? I don't think so.

The actual reason of my posts was saying that a friend and teammate of mine just got another top 4 result with the deck. His matchups were:

Ichorid 1-0
Imperial Painter 2-0
Merfolk 3-0
Dark Tempo Threshold (teammate) ID - 3-0-1 <-- he couldn't win one more match, otherwise he was top 8 also.
BUGlandstill (teammate) - 4-0-1 <--he finally became 9th, due to tiebreakers...
ID into top 8 - 4-0-2

Quarters won (because of Mind Harness)
Semi-final loss against Ichorid

Most notable thing: the deck had no sideboard against dredge.
Another thing: there were 2 Tempo Threshold decks in top 8. One of them was Dark Tempo Threshold, the other one was a Canadian Tempo Threshold list.

I think this, again, proves that this deck is real, vital, and one to be reckoned with.

[Nelis]

And a friend of mine won the tournament with Merfolk.

[CaBaaL]

what SB plan has the deck (canadian thress) against BUG landstil? Pithing needle for deed,jace ? the only weekness of the deck is his manabase (too many colorless lands -wastelands+manlands) so I need agresive mulligan to tempo oriented hand?
Is dark thress better or worst against it ?

[Irenicus]

I think this, again, proves that this deck is real, vital, and one to be reckoned with.

Mind sharing your decklist? I know that you have posted some in the past but what's your current one? Thank you in advance!

[Anarky87]

Quarters won (because of Mind Harness)

What did he play against in the quarterfinals?

[illusivek]

I too would like to see the winning decklist. I'm still working out the details, but this is mine:


4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Mental Misstep
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fire // Ice
4 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
1 Vendilion Clique

[Cthuloo]

what SB plan has the deck (canadian thress) against BUG landstil? Pithing needle for deed,jace ? the only weekness of the deck is his manabase (too many colorless lands -wastelands+manlands) so I need agresive mulligan to tempo oriented hand?
Is dark thress better or worst against it ?

With dark thresh I'm having a pretty good matchup vs BUG landstill, to be honest. The key is to be able to resolve and protect a DC for a few turns, then the advantage you gained should be enough to grab the win. Goyf and mongoose are your weakest cards here, use them to draw out removal and counters. Cliques are very powerful in the matchup, I have them in my board and suggest them to everybody for the control matchups that are very common nowadays. Extirpate can help too: wasting a factory and extirpating nullifies standstill, and if you also manage to counter and extirpate Jace... well, then they have no way to win.

[Bahamuth]

What did he play against in the quarterfinals?

I played against something Bant-ish with 4 GSZ and 4 Hierarch. Those 8 cards make things a lot thougher, especially when his creatures are shit like RWM and KotR.


With dark thresh I'm having a pretty good matchup vs BUG landstill, to be honest. The key is to be able to resolve and protect a DC for a few turns, then the advantage you gained should be enough to grab the win. Goyf and mongoose are your weakest cards here, use them to draw out removal and counters. Cliques are very powerful in the matchup, I have them in my board and suggest them to everybody for the control matchups that are very common nowadays. Extirpate can help too: wasting a factory and extirpating nullifies standstill, and if you also manage to counter and extirpate Jace... well, then they have no way to win.

Mongoose may actually be more important than Confidant in this matchup. BUG Landstill usually only has 4 Deed and 1-2 Edicts to answer Mongoose. You have 4 Stifle as answers to Deed and I think you should leave in 1-2 Demise to, together with Wasteland, get rid of Factory's. Cliques are good if they run Loam, because that cards fucks your strategy up big time returning Factory's all day.

[Cthuloo]

I played against something Bant-ish with 4 GSZ and 4 Hierarch. Those 8 cards make things a lot thougher, especially when his creatures are shit like RWM and KotR.



Mongoose may actually be more important than Confidant in this matchup. BUG Landstill usually only has 4 Deed and 1-2 Edicts to answer Mongoose. You have 4 Stifle as answers to Deed and I think you should leave in 1-2 Demise to, together with Wasteland, get rid of Factory's. Cliques are good if they run Loam, because that cards fucks your strategy up big time returning Factory's all day.

Well, six answers to Mongoose is still quite a few, considering that the average is usually 0-2. What I mean is that you can't simply cast your Mongoose and sit back, but you have actually to protect it. Since protecting a Mongoose requires roughly the same effort of protecting a Confidant, and Confidant has a much bigger impact on the game if it stays in play for 2-3 turns, I consider it to be a more important card in the matchup, and I am more than willing to bait a removal with Mongoose to resolve an unmolested Confidant.

[MC_EM86]

Well, six answers to Mongoose is still quite a few, considering that the average is usually 0-2. What I mean is that you can't simply cast your Mongoose and sit back, but you have actually to protect it. Since protecting a Mongoose requires roughly the same effort of protecting a Confidant, and Confidant has a much bigger impact on the game if it stays in play for 2-3 turns, I consider it to be a more important card in the matchup, and I am more than willing to bait a removal with Mongoose to resolve an unmolested Confidant.

Nimble Mongoose is the best creature in this MU because of Shroud. He only got Pernicous Deed to handle Nimble Mongoose. You have to protect DC from Spell Snare, Deed, Smother aso. Its much harder to protect DC in this MU. Yesterday I played against BUG Still with Maze of Ith but Nimble Mongoose > Maze ;)
In general... If you have DC online and if you can protect him its still gg.

[Dark Ritual]

The list of BUG Deedstill affects whether mongoose is good or not. When I was playtesting dark thresh against BUGStill with 4 innocent bloods and 4 deeds the mongoose wasn't working for me even though I was trying desperately to protect it with missteps on innocent blood he drew 2 innocent bloods and 1 misstep so he killed mongoose in the end. This was preboard though postboard we didn't test postboard but it should get better since we can board out the very awful smother's/gftt/ghastly demise for good cards. Clique is definitely sweet against them since they run loam generally and one resolved loam getting 3 lands back...that's usually really rough.

But on the plan of resolving and protecting confidant. That's always a solid plan in any MU sans burn I guess but bob is sweetness as long as he doesn't kill you by revealing multiple FoW's and the opponent putting pressure on you with creatures/burn.

Nimble mongoose is sweet. I can't get why someone would want to run wild nacatl in threshold. Nacatl is very much the worst creature you could run; he's even worse than goyf is. Nacatl gets bolted. Goyf doesn't. Nacatl dies to a multiple wasteland draw since then he's 'just a 1/1' same as an inactive mongoose. Vedalken shackles steals him. Mongoose has shroud. Really, I will always run 4 mongoose regardless of the list of tempo thresh that I play because he's sweet. Not to mention 1 mana is leagues less than 2 mana in this deck I hate to tap out and then have an opponent play a 2 drop I suddenly can't spell snare.

[MC_EM86]

Ok, its much harder to protect creatures, if your opponent is playing Innocent Blood;)
Extirpate is a very good sideboard card in this MU ;)
Is Vendilion Clique in your sideboard?

My Sideboard is as follows:
3 Disfigure
3 Extirpate
3 Deathmark
3 Spell Pierce
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tormods Crypt

I only play this Deck and sometimes Canadian but iam very satisfied with this sideboard.

[GGoober]

Nimble mongoose is sweet. I can't get why someone would want to run wild nacatl in threshold. Nacatl is very much the worst creature you could run; he's even worse than goyf is. Nacatl gets bolted. Goyf doesn't. Nacatl dies to a multiple wasteland draw since then he's 'just a 1/1' same as an inactive mongoose. Vedalken shackles steals him. Mongoose has shroud. Really, I will always run 4 mongoose regardless of the list of tempo thresh that I play because he's sweet. Not to mention 1 mana is leagues less than 2 mana in this deck I hate to tap out and then have an opponent play a 2 drop I suddenly can't spell snare.

Because Nacatl isn't really in Threshold. He's in Zoo/Blue Zoo. Before the Blue Zoo thread was created, they tried pushing ideas on the Threshold threads, which isn't surprising why they were oftentimes attacked, because as you put it, Mongoose fits in the idea of a tempo deck much more than Nacatl. Nacatl fits into a deck that is more aggressive than Tempo i.e. it only plays blue to gain tempo for free swings, and not tempo to actually stop your opponents from doing anything.

Mongoose is the best creature for Tempo Thresh.dec. He's very much better than Goyf. The shroud goes a long way, but being 1 mana means a lot in the early game where it is awkward to set up Goyfs by tapping out etc.

And people on the Blue Zoo thread often shy away comments that the 4c manabase is worth it and supports Nacatl just fine. I guess I was a little unfair playing Dreadstalker against my friend who was testing blue Zoo against it, but Nacatl always seems to be a 2/2 for most parts when I played against my friend. If your opponents do not play Wastelands, then Nacatl in Blue Zoo is pretty devastating, but it becomes pretty embarassing when she's a 2/2 against Waste.dec, not to mention being screwed on the lands in play because fetching a 4c manabase is extremely difficult and affect future lines of plays.

[Nubiatem]

I recently picked up my old Canadian thresh deck last week and thought I’d post my results.
Small local tourney, but all competitive decks ~22 people
My list:
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fire / Ice
4 Mental Misstep

SB:
2 pyroclasm
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Submerge
4 REB
2 K Grip
2 Pithing Needle

I didn’t go for any GY hate because I was not worried about any deck but dredge and my strategies involved dodging that deck like the plague.
1st round Vs salvagers game/the game
I’m not sure what the guy played but it wasn’t close.
He exterpated (I think in game one) but never got anything meaningful.
Won 2-0
I never let him resolve a meaningful spell
2nd Round Vs RUG control
It was basically a mirror match except he did not run goose. I tend to draw very poorly in the mirror and this was no exception. Lost 0-2
3rd round vs merfolk
Mental misstep hit his first turn vial both games and I controlled the game from that point on.
In came 4 REB and 2 pyros (I know controversial but I like them)
Games where not close but I designed my sideboard to crush merfolk and zoo.
Won 2-0
4th round vs U/G poison counters
The guy said its an adaptation of a real deck and I’m sure that’s the case, however the deck looked an awful lot like a weeny deck and my burn was far too much for him to handle.
Pyro, EE and submerge came in
Won 2-0
Top 8 vs zoo
Games where a lot of fun, its always great to see their blank stare when you throw their own chain lightning back at them. After SB the match became unfairly in my favor.
Won 2-0
We ended up splitting at top 4.

I know I did not have to face dredge or any relics but honestly playing with MM felt like 4 more force of wills. I’ll happily be playing this list next time.

[Henrik]

How was stifle during the tournament?

I'm wondering, since stifle is one of the spells I consider reducing to fit the missteps.

[Charlatan]

I recently picked up my old Canadian thresh deck last week and thought I’d post my results.
Small local tourney, but all competitive decks ~22 people
My list:


Good man, no Cliques, I really hate this creature in tempo thresh...

Nice result!

[troopatroop]

Because Nacatl isn't really in Threshold. He's in Zoo/Blue Zoo. Before the Blue Zoo thread was created, they tried pushing ideas on the Threshold threads, which isn't surprising why they were oftentimes attacked, because as you put it, Mongoose fits in the idea of a tempo deck much more than Nacatl. Nacatl fits into a deck that is more aggressive than Tempo i.e. it only plays blue to gain tempo for free swings, and not tempo to actually stop your opponents from doing anything.

Mongoose is the best creature for Tempo Thresh.dec. He's very much better than Goyf. The shroud goes a long way, but being 1 mana means a lot in the early game where it is awkward to set up Goyfs by tapping out etc.

And people on the Blue Zoo thread often shy away comments that the 4c manabase is worth it and supports Nacatl just fine. I guess I was a little unfair playing Dreadstalker against my friend who was testing blue Zoo against it, but Nacatl always seems to be a 2/2 for most parts when I played against my friend. If your opponents do not play Wastelands, then Nacatl in Blue Zoo is pretty devastating, but it becomes pretty embarassing when she's a 2/2 against Waste.dec, not to mention being screwed on the lands in play because fetching a 4c manabase is extremely difficult and affect future lines of plays.

While your Nacatl was attacking for 2, did you note if Nimble Mongoose would've been 1/1? Was Shroud relevant? 2/2 for 1 is so far from embarassing. That's Isamaru, and he hits twice as hard as the Mongoose. Turns 2-4 are where Kird Ape, Wild Nacatl, or Steppe Lynx shine.

Lately, I've been watching videos of games posted online from Spain / Germany / Italy, and I see many games from Bug or Ugr thresh decks where a Mongoose attacks 4-5 times as a 1/1. I see it played on the first turn alot too. In the matches against Storm, Painter, or Spiral Tide, Wild Nacatl would've been 2-3x better, and ended the games. Nimble Mongoose gives them alot of time, and multiples of them attacking at 1/1 makes me cringe. Why are all of you satisfied with this? Combo decks are sincerely thanking you.

I understand that Nimble Mongoose is better in "this deck", because you only play 8 creatures. He closes out the game once he gets in play, and that's assured against many decks, and there's value in that. However, if you're looking to be twice as fast, look at Wild Nacatl.

[Henrik]

Ok, look, I really respect the idea of Nacatls and whatever whatnot cmc1 beaters you can find in a blue aggro-control deck. I think it might be a reasonably good idea, and I don't doubt it can put up results. I just saw Caleb Durward play a blue Nacatl/lavamancer deck in SCG Cincinnati, with some similar elements to the decks you and Hanni are posting.

With that said, I really don't think this is the thread you should be discussing it in. Nimble mongoose is such a cornerstone in threshold decks, in such a fundamental way that it makes no sense at all to compare it to Wild Nacatl. Instead, you should rather discuss the two entirely different strategies these two decks (Threshold and "Blue Zoo") are following.

So, since there already is a thread with a primer for Blue Zoo, I believe that's a suitable place to post the lists with Nacatls and Lavamancers, and I'm also sure the Durward list will be mentioned there pretty soon. Again, I believe Blue Zoo is a viable strategy, and I'm not saying one deck is better than the other; just that they really are just that, different decks. I'm saying this in order to keep the content of this thread as constructive as possible. I feel the discussion of both Canadian or BUG thresh is getting nowhere otherwise.

[Nubiatem]

How was stifle during the tournament?

I'm wondering, since stifle is one of the spells I consider reducing to fit the missteps.

Stifle is still a very strong card. That being said I sided it out most games. The decks its good against its really too good to give up. Blade control – hits the search and the token generation, goblins – hits everything, combo – nuff said, ichorid – surprisingly relevant, landstill - deed, waste, fetch, etc.
And after all that it still hits fetches, pitches to force, or can be buried. I have found that even if a deck has few stifle targets (merfolk, zoo, agro loam) people still fear it and fetch late. So it can be worth it to have them and side them out because they still have to play around them.
As you can tell from the standard list I chose to remove 1 daze, 2 bounce/clique, 1 fire/ice. I feel that is about the best call, at least for my meta.

[Octopusman]

Stifle is still a very strong card. That being said I sided it out most games. The decks its good against its really too good to give up. Blade control – hits the search and the token generation, goblins – hits everything, combo – nuff said, ichorid – surprisingly relevant, landstill - deed, waste, fetch, etc.
And after all that it still hits fetches, pitches to force, or can be buried. I have found that even if a deck has few stifle targets (merfolk, zoo, agro loam) people still fear it and fetch late. So it can be worth it to have them and side them out because they still have to play around them.
As you can tell from the standard list I chose to remove 1 daze, 2 bounce/clique, 1 fire/ice. I feel that is about the best call, at least for my meta.

I saw there was activity in this thread so I came to check it out because I wanted to see if people were having success. Seems like it. I made a point in another thread saying how it seems like a good time for wasteland + stifle. I'm a huge fan of stifle and have been getting great results in another deck.

Keep up the good work!

[xfxf]

Hi guys,

I'm trying to decide between Canadian and Dark Thresh and have been doing some reading about tournament reports and decklists. I have a few questions on both.

Canadian looks really solid and efficient however there is no card advantage opportunities. It trades resources one for one and I'm wondering if it would put the deck into top deck mode often. I feel like against decks which can create card advantage this could be a problem and you could be struggling to draw threats in the long game.

Dark Thresh seems solid in this manner (with Dark Confidant) but the deck seems somewhat bulky. Isn't Tombstalker and Tarmogoyf antisynergistic? Also the disruption package (discards and creature removals) seems too much meta dependent. How would you feel taking a Dark Thresh deck to an unknown meta?

I've read quite a bit of the whole thread but I'd really appreciate some feedback on these points from experienced players of the deck.

[Chikenbok]

It comes down to 2 things - playstyle and metagame.
It can be said that the black splash is more controlling, but thats not always true. It just runs more powerful spells. The removal is often 1B, which costs twice as much as Lightning Bolt. Also EE costs usually 3 or 4 mana over 1/2 turns. Once you land a bob, however - its gg for your opponent. You can afford to FoW more trivial spells, and usually swing for the win over the next few turns.

A protected turn 2 bob will get you there more often than not. It is almost always correct to FoW any removal played on him before you get to draw your first extra card, because over 1-2 turns you make up the card disadvantage. In a deck that relies on OPTIONS, Dark Confidant is almost cheating.

Due to the fact that you will need 1 more mana to get started, the black splash suffers from decks who will try to out-tempo you in the early game. Common examples are the Creature heavy Zoo hand, and Merfolk with a turn 1 vial. Your strategy here is to not let them overtake your tempo - EE on 1 for zoo, and creature removal/daze for merfolk. UGr has the upper hand here, but if you take advantages of opponents bad draws, and possible misplays, you can grab a more even keel. You want to be the beatdown in these matchups turns 1-3. IE Make your land drops, land a bob, and just get him to stick. If you use your cantrips effectively, which is a science in and of itself, these matchups become more like 45/55 then 30/70.

A useful analogy between the red and black splash is to think of the red splash like a sports car - fast and agile - but often stopped by losing control, or a brick wall. The black splash is more of a Mack Truck - sometimes slower off the line, but once it gets going, it is almost impossible to stop. I prefer inevitability over flooring it at a green light and hoping to win the race.

Remember - the bulk of the cards are the same: Goyf, goose, stifle/waste. In some games, these differences wont even matter.

There ya go. Differences, outlined quite nicely.

[Cthuloo]

Dark Thresh seems solid in this manner (with Dark Confidant) but the deck seems somewhat bulky. Isn't Tombstalker and Tarmogoyf antisynergistic? Also the disruption package (discards and creature removals) seems too much meta dependent. How would you feel taking a Dark Thresh deck to an unknown meta?


I think you're mixing Dark Thresh and Team America here. The creature base for DT is 4xDark Confidant, 4xGoyf, 4xMoongoose, while Tombstalker is a typical TA creature. DT also doesn't play any maindeck discard.

I quote Chikenbok who quotes Scordata for a very good explanation of the difference between the two versions.

[xfxf]

@Cthuloo: Yes, you are right. The difference between Team America and Dark Thresh (Ubg Tempo) was a little blurry for me.

I really like the card advantage from the Bobs so I favor the Bob lists over Team America but what would be a good current list? Would you also include Vendilion Cliques in the main? What about Pernicious Deeds?

I'm thinking something along these lines:

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Daze
4 Stifle

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

2 Diabolic Edict
2 Smother (Creature removal suite is a 4 slot and subject to change)
1 Pernicious Deed

20 Lands (I'll adjust the manabase accordingly once I decide on the core)


What are your thoughts, how do you think the core of a current Ubg Tempo list should be?

[xfxf]

The 3rd placer Ubg Tempo from Bazaar of Moxen tournament has a quite different build. He has 8 slots for discard in the main, no Nimble Mongoose (2 Terravores instead) and Jaces. No Daze, no Stifle...

Business (38)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Terravore

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep

3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach

3 Go for the Throat
1 Pernicious Deed

4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (22)
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Forest
1 Swamp

[GGoober]

The 3rd placer Ubg Tempo from Bazaar of Moxen tournament has a quite different build. He has 8 slots for discard in the main, no Nimble Mongoose (2 Terravores instead) and Jaces. No Daze, no Stifle...

Business (38)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Terravore

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep

3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach

3 Go for the Throat
1 Pernicious Deed

4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (22)
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Forest
1 Swamp

It's BUG Aggro Control, and I believe it's first featured and assembled/piloted by Gerry T (no stifles). SCG calls it Team America however. It's a good deck but tending more towards the controllish aspect than Tempo.

On another note, on TCdecks, UGr Thresh seems to be much better performing than UGb Thresh despite UGb Thresh looking great on paper. Obviously TCdecks doesn't track which deck is better, but the pilots of UGr seem to be doing better than UGb. Perhaps it's due to the meta where UGr has a much stronger matchup against Blade Control, Blade decks than UGb. Also UGr kinda crushes Merfolks o.o

[Cenarius]

Dark TT and Canadian TT have a few differences in the list and playstyle-wise, though all of them are still pretty significant.

I would recommend Dark TT list that plays 3 Nimble Mongoose, 4 Tarmogoyf and 4 Dark Confidant. Dark Confidant is thé reason to play Dark TT over Canadian Threshold. It doesn't matter what matchup you're playing, you always want to see the atleast one Dark Confidant.
Dark TT should play 4 Ghastly Demise, all day long. Smother/GFTT/Doomblade/EE and Diabolic edict (probably forgetting another one) should not be played, because they're either (too) slow, or as situational as Ghastly Demise (or worse). The one CC from Ghastly Demise is worth the situational graveyard hate, which this deck just ignores (something Canadian Threshold does have a problem with). Whereas Lightning bolt and Fire/Ice are really good for the last points of damage, or tapping any creature to attack for lethal, the creature removal of Dark TT makes your own creatures so much better, especially Nimble Mongoose. The fact that you can actually get rid of large Tarmgoyf's, Knight of the Reliquary's, Terravore's and/or Countryside Crusher's is what I also really like about the deck (I standstills or situations where I have Bolt + Nimble Mongoose and my opponent has a Tarmogoyf).

The sideboard contain different cards for both decks. Whereas Canadian TT plays Pyroclasms/Pyroblast/Graveyard hate/metagame cards etc., Dark TT should play a combination of Phyrexian Dreadnought, Torper orb (1), Disfigure, some metagame slots etc.

Scordata almost made a point on distinction about the two decks. Good job, really good read.

[lord09]

I've always loved CT, but it is very frustrating when they plop down a large creature and your hand is depleted and you have very little answers you could possibly top-deck.

Any links or recommendations to a Dark Thresh list that's been performing well?

[kusumoto]

I find that between Ancient Grudge and Mind Harness the most common big creatures of the format are pretty manageable with Canadian.

[Nubiatem]

@Cthuloo: Yes, you are right. The difference between Team America and Dark Thresh (Ubg Tempo) was a little blurry for me.

I really like the card advantage from the Bobs so I favor the Bob lists over Team America but what would be a good current list? Would you also include Vendilion Cliques in the main? What about Pernicious Deeds?

I'm thinking something along these lines:

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Daze
4 Stifle

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

2 Diabolic Edict
2 Smother (Creature removal suite is a 4 slot and subject to change)
1 Pernicious Deed

20 Lands (I'll adjust the manabase accordingly once I decide on the core)


What are your thoughts, how do you think the core of a current Ubg Tempo list should be?

I’ve never played the dark thresh deck but in a meta heavy with zoo, hivemind, and other big dumb animal decks I still prefer Canadian. I recently changed my list -1 spell snare to + 1 daze because its much better against NO RUG, Hivemind, and big zoo. Other then that the thing to keep in mind with a tempo deck (especially Canadian thresh) is you never really get to "feel safe". This is not a landstill deck that we just wipe the board and generate card advantage, no jace, no stonforge so “at least I have an equipment” Nothing. Everything plays out like a race, you counter bounce tap and burn while beating away. Your solutions may not solve the problem long term, but the game hopefully wont go that long anyway. The type of play style I think you might be looking for is something from Black CB Top and not a tempo deck. Also worth noting because its come up in my meta, goose is amazing vs Lands, no matter how good the pilot clams the match is, a crypt or just keeping up the counters on the loam is backbreaking in combination with not being able to maze out your goose.
TLDR: tempo thresh - You 1 for 1 everything while using your “bolt with legs” to win the game.
The SB I’ve changed as well (full of hate for certain decks)
4 REB
2 Trygon predator
3 Crypt
2 spell pierce
4 submerge

[Grizzly_Bear]

Double post, sorry.

[Grizzly_Bear]

According to TC decks, the player that has been placing in most top8s recently with Canadian *****, is one Johannes Gehrer, from Austria, with 10+ top8s during 2011 alone. Most of the tournamets held 40-60 players, and among them, Johannes placed first in quite a few.

I'm now wondering, is Johannes Gehrer on the source, and in this thread specifically? I would love to hear his thoughts on the deck in the current metagame, sideboard strategies and card choices etc.

[MC_EM86]

According to TC decks, the player that has been placing in most top8s recently with Canadian *****, is one Johannes Gehrer, from Austria, with 10+ top8s during 2011 alone. Most of the tournamets held 40-60 players, and among them, Johannes placed first in quite a few.

I'm now wondering, is Johannes Gehrer on the source, and in this thread specifically? I would love to hear his thoughts on the deck in the current metagame, sideboard strategies and card choices etc.

I think the best Canadian Player is Fabian Moyschewitz from Germany. He knows Johannes very well and I think Johannes is his "Trainee" ;)
What do you want to know about the Sideboard?
The current Sideboard (from the German Nationals) is:
3 Spell Pierce
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroclasm
2 Dismember
3 Submerge
2 Mind Harness
2 Tormods Crypt

What sideboard strategies do you want to know especially?

[Grizzly_Bear]

Thanks for your respons, and yeah, it might very well be that there are a number of players in Europe having succes with the deck. I just found Johannes' name poping up a lot at TC decks. Obviously, I don't know neither Johannes or Fabian personally (I play in Norway) and mean no disrespect by crediting either before the other, I just want the input and his point of view.

What I would like to know specifically, is what to board out in each matchup. With the SB looking the way it does, it seems pretty obvious what cards are useful in which matchup, but a list similar to the example below, but for each of the deck to beats (and/or the most common decks in the metagame) would be great;

"Against GW Maverick
- 4 card X
- 2 card Y
- 1 card Z
+3 submerge
+2 mind harness
+2 dismember "

I hope you see what I mean, and I hope my english is fine.

[Vain]

This has just been spoiled in the Innistrad spoiler:

Delver of Secrets (U)
Creature - Human Wizard (C)
At the beginning of your upkeep, look at the top card of your library. You may reveal that card. If an instant or sorcery is revealed this way, transform Delver of Secrets.
1/1
////////////
Insectile Aberration
Creature - Human Insect
Flying
3/2


In a deck like tempo threshold, which runs more than 30 instants/sorcery's on average, I can see this card being really good. Thoughts?

[routlaw]

With Misstep around to counter cheap removal on a 1-for-1 basis, the 8-threat suite of Geese+Goyfs seem sufficient for this deck. If the fly had hexproof or something then maybe it would warrant consideration.

[tsabo_tavoc]

With Misstep around to counter cheap removal on a 1-for-1 basis, the 8-threat suite of Geese+Goyfs seem sufficient for this deck. If the fly had hexproof or something then maybe it would warrant consideration.

It flies, pitches to FOW, upgrades earlier than Goose, does it really need Shroud to compete?

[Henrik]

"... upgrades earlier than Goose..."

Well, you can't be sure of that, now can you?
I'm not sure I'm willing to leave that to chance.

[Benie Bederios]

It flies, pitches to FOW, upgrades earlier than Goose, does it really need Shroud to compete?

It's a worse topdeck... Goose comes into play as a 3/3 later on, doing some lite blocking duty. IF you're unlucky it might take 2 turns for Delver to transform. The ass of two makes it a little weaker against Grim Lavamancer, a card I see quite alot these days. Though flying is hot. I think I'm gonna test it with as split card.

.Benie.

[tsabo_tavoc]

Well, you can't be sure of that, now can you?
I'm not sure I'm willing to leave that to chance.

You don't leave that to chance as you play 8 cantrips.


It's a worse topdeck... Goose comes into play as a 3/3 later on, doing some lite blocking duty. IF you're unlucky it might take 2 turns for Delver to transform. The ass of two makes it a little weaker against Grim Lavamancer, a card I see quite alot these days. Though flying is hot. I think I'm gonna test it with as split card.

.Benie.

Those are some valid points, making the choice debatable. But well, the main pros are flying and blue. Goose does not shine against Grim Lavamancer either. Heck, there comes a good idea, Firespout!

[Pippin]

Delver is certainly an interesting card and some testing should be warranted before final judgment.
However, I think that Mongoose is still superior - it's a 10 times better topdeck, and most importantly it doesn't die to spot removal while Delver dies to absolutely everything out there. Topdeck part is more important IMO, since that's what this deck is all about after few initial turns.

[Maëlig]

With the metagame shift towards storm combo and merfolk, I think TT could make a long awaited come-back. I'll probably put 3 lavamancer and 1 fire / ice in the MM slots, and I'll try delver in place of mongoose.

[reev_]

actually i dont play canadian because I have too many kotr in my meta (ugw blade, rock and zoo). In this case, we need a lot of stifle and waste early to try win, or flip the table.
however, with flying delver and some burns, we can do this imo.
I think something with vendilion, goyf, delver, perhaps spellstutter and firespout md.

im starting the playtest with

18 lands

4 goyf
4 delver
2 vendilion

4 stifle
4 bs
4 snare
4 fow
3 daze
3 ponder
4 fire/ice
4 bolt
2 firespout

can something like this work?

Capitalization is required on these boards. Use it. -zilla

[MC_EM86]

actually i dont play canadian because I have too many kotr in my meta (ugw blade, rock and zoo). In this case, we need a lot of stifle and waste early to try win, or flip the table.
however, with flying delver and some burns, we can do this imo.
I think something with vendilion, goyf, delver, perhaps spellstutter and firespout md.

im starting the playtest with

18 lands

4 goyf
4 delver
2 vendilion

4 stifle
4 bs
4 snare
4 fow
3 daze
3 ponder
4 fire/ice
4 bolt
2 firespout

can something like this work?

Never change a winning Team. Cutting Mongoose is the worst thing you could do with this Deck! He´s better than Tarmogoyf in this Deck.
I think the "old" list is still the best configuration.
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Daze
4 BS
4 FoW
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
1 Rushing River
14 Blue Manasources with a split of 4/4 Volcanic/Tropical
4 Wasteland

What is your sideboardbuilt right now. GW is postboard absolutely ok.
Try this one:
3 Submerge
2 Mind Harness
3 Spell Pierce
2 REB
2 Tormods Crypt
2 Dismember
1 Pyroclasm

[jardach]

Did anyone test a Snapcaster Mage in Can. ********? I played now few games(aprox. 10-15 games),and it seems to fit in it...I played 3 copies of him,instead of 2 fire/ice and 1 daze from previous list(from the last post in thread)

[Dark Ritual]

Has anyone tried dismember in canadian thresh as a mainboard removal spell? It seems like it could finally solve the problem of "my opponent resolved a goyf/kotr/terravore and I'm holding this sweet fire//ice that fogs it for a turn" into "pay 1 and 4 life to kill said big dude." On top of that, it allows us to play 8 one mana removal spells in the form of 4 bolt's and 4 dismember's replacing the fire//ice in traditional canadian lists.

On the 3/2 flier for U. I like the card; don't say the card is too conditional. We run 4 brainstorm and 4 ponder/preordain alongside a multitude of instant speed cards. If we run him in a traditional list with 18 land and 8 creature's, we have 34 cards that make him a 3/2 flier. The chances are good that you'll hit and if you don't, well you just run that ponder/preordain/brainstorm out there and reveal instant X next turn that you don't care about much. I think it could potentially replace goyf, since mongoose is still the nuts IMO since it has shroud and isn't a boatload of mana (2 mana is sooooo much for canadian thresh, and if you have spell snare in hand it's really awkward).

[miko]

I recently tested a UR version of Threshold.
It worked pretty well.

3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets

4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
3 Fire // Ice
3 Spell Snare
4 Ponder
1 Spell Pierce (pretty random, but I like to have 3 Pierces after boarding)

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Mountain
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
= 19 Lands

I really like the manabase, because you can play basics of both colors. Test results have been OK till now, but in some matchups you have to rely on your sideboard.

SB:
1 Mind Harness
2 Dismember
3 Submerge
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pithing Needle

I might want to cut 1 or 2 Needles and play some Jaces instead...

What do you guys think. Could a list like this be viable?

Btw: Grim Lavamancer and Snapcaster are not as anti-synergetic as it might be at the first sight.

[Humphrey]

Im testing almost the same list and have very good results with it.. Since there are no free slots, the best way to go is kick green and get a better manabase. Delver is awesome. One could test 1-2 Noughts too

[wcm8]

Add Dismember to the main of that list and you have a pretty solid deck. (You could probably cut Fire/Ice for it)

[goobafish]

My current list runs 2 dismembers, they are awesome.

[keys]

My current list runs 2 dismembers, they are awesome.

Agreed. I'm running 1 maindeck, 1 in the board.

Another great thing about Delver is that he doesn't conflict with Grim Lavamancer, which I really like as a 2-of in this deck. I cut down on the number of Fire//Ice to fit them in.

I'm also testing Snapcaster Mage in place of Vendilion Clique, but I'm not sold yet. He can be awesome sometimes (like 2 for 1-ing with a Bolt), but other times he just feels like a [bad] Mystic Snake. Without MM in the format, he is a lot worse.

[kues]

My current list runs 2 dismembers, they are awesome.

Can you share it? =)

[MC_EM86]

I don´t think that Delver is as good as Nimble Mongoose in this Deck. Many Decks got huge Problems with Nimble Mongoose an the little man is necessary for this Deck. You only play 8 or 9 Creatures in Canadian Thresh and shroud is VERY important.
Tarmogoyf is weaker than Nimble Mongoose!! Nimble Mongoose is often the finisher.

[goobafish]

Can you share it? =)

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
2 Dismember
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm

4 Wasteland
4 Volc
4 Trop
6 Fetch

No sb yet. Want to see some post misstep results first.

[Seb]

Delver over Mongoose? Damn, if Caplan is on board, i'll try it for sure. Flying does seem sweet.

In Montreal, from what I've heard, the meta is gonna be very combo-oriented after the Misstep ban. Can Thresh will probably be sweet if I'm right. In that meta, I don't think anybody will play Zoo or GW, making Can Thresh a deck with pretty good matchups all around.

I haven't done any testing, but it seems that Can Thresh is slightly favored against NO RUG (terrible manabase) and control SFM decks (infinite answers to SFM), considering that Misstep is out of the picture. Combo is obviously favorable. New Horizons could be hard, and so could be CB-Top if they adopt a stable manabase. Vial aggro decks (Folks and Gobs) are pretty 50/50, depending on the sideboard. However, the 3 maindeck Grims certainly help.

My sideboard would look like this, expecting mainly UW SFM CB-Top (like the Drew Levin list), Combo (Storm, Hive Mind, High Tide), Folks/Gobs and some leftover NO RUGs and Dark Horizons.

2 Krosan Grip
4 Pyroblast (seems insane against CB-Top, blue combo and Folks)
2 Fire/Ice (could be Pyroclasm, but I don't like the interaction with Grim)
1 E.E.
2 Flusterstorm (could be Spell Pierces)
2 Submerge
2 Grave Hate

I expect my bad matchups to be KotR decks, like New Horizons and Dark Horizons. Shit happens!

[Dark Ritual]

....We already smash CBTop decks with can. thresh. You don't need 4 pyroblast to fight countertop in addition to 2 krosan grip. The best thing I can see pyroblast doing in here is potentially winning a counterwar (which flusterstorm already does) or being sweet against painter naming blue. Against combo it's iffy. You have to hit cantrips with it, since those are the only blue spells they run. Against reanimator it is good though, hitting careful study and jin-gitaxias as well as all those counterspells. The deck it's best against though is high tide no doubt here since it counters everything.

Why would you waste 2 SB slots on graveyard hate again? With 2 tormod's crypt in the board let's say you don't draw them even if you board them in. Then you're screwed. You either devote 4 or more slots to graveyard hate IMO or you devote none to improve other MUs more with the added board space.

If you're uncomfortable against dark horizons/kotr decks just run more submerge in the board. He answers kotr like a champion I hear after they activate kotr you shuffle their kotr in and it's sweet because it's 0 mana. Dismember also helps against kotr tremendously.

Delver of secrets merits testing. At least, I think he's nuts what with him being a 3/2 flier for a single blue. Also pitches to force as an added bonus if you need something to pitch against combo and you have to hold your other blue cards.

[BantFTW]

in a meta with not much zoo/burn decks the delver is really the bomb, I've tested a deck without green and combo is really a good matchup let's say 70-30%, you've got so much counter...
But somewhere like a GP I think a mongoose would be better.
But combo-oriantated matchups are good matchups :)

[Seb]

@ Dark Ritual :

You're probably right for the grave hate. I could just expect to dodge Ichorid.

For K. Grip, it's not just CB-Top. It's the best possible answer against Batterskull, if it ever resolve, and is a useful tool against random decks packing enchantments or Affinity.

I could see myself going to 3 Pyroblast, but not below that. It has too many useful applications, and it's insanely mana efficient.

Let's say we remove 1 Pyroblast and 2 grave hate from my SB, what do we add? Probably a 3rd Submerge, a 3rd combo hate (like 1 Pierce, 2 Flusterstorm), and 1 additional removal?

What would you suggest?

[Esper3k]

Against Batterskulls, I think Ancient Grudge is better?

[Seb]

Not really. They pretty much never play two of them, and late game, it's easy for them to play aroung Grudge (i.e. keep a counter + 3 mana open). When I played UW StoneBlade, I won some games against NO-RUG only because I was able to counter Grudge and leave mana open. If he had Grips instead, I would just have died. Also, if UW Stone-Blade becomes CB-Top Blade, they'll easily counter your Grudges with CB.

[Humphrey]

This is my current list, so far I didnt need Dismember and was ok with Fire/Ice

4 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire // Ice
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Mountain
3 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 4 Insectile Aberration
SB: 2 Firespout

[keys]

After a lot of testing, I can safely say that Delver of Secrets (+ Lavamancer) is the real deal. Goodbye geese.

[Julian23]

@keys: would you mind sharing your list? I'd love to see it.
@Humphreys: you've got 4 Insectile Aberration in the sb. I suppose this might be an error. ??
/edit: ok, I see what you did there....lol.

[keys]

@keys: would you mind sharing your list? I'd love to see it.
@Humphreys: you've got 4 Insectile Aberration in the sb. I suppose this might be an error. ??
/edit: ok, I see what you did there....lol.

My list is identical to the one Goobafish posted on the last page, except I've been playing a basic Mountain and Island, and I have a 7th fetchland instead of the Preordain. I am also trying to squeeze in a Clique or two. I currently have one in the place of a Dismember.

My board is:
2 Spell Pierce
3 REB
3 Submerge
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Firespout
1 Dismember

[Waikiki]

Why did u choose to play the 2 basic lands? Isnt fire/ice missed at all? also your board isnt 15.

[MC_EM86]

Why do you play the configuration Snapcaster, Delver and Lavamancer?
Really, ich can´t understand your choice.
SNapcaster Mage and Delver are playable, its no question, but you have to build a Deck round about them. They got no shroud and if your opponent has a creature on the Battlefield you can´t raise the creatures. Your opponent also gets information about your next draw and play his Spells around your counters. I think its very bad!!! Your current creatures got no Shroud and EACH Removal will beat them. Your list is absolutely far away from Canadian Treshhold. And if Caplan really is on board here, he would share a lot of punches! I mean, why do you think that snapcaster and delver are better than Goyf and Mongoose? There is no reason! ;) My current list is -3 Misstep and I´m testing 1 Dismember main and 2 Spell Pierce. I think our German Meta is walking into a Sucky Kombo Meta even with High Tide and some other Versions with Tendrils Kill and Past in Flames and thats the reason why I´m playing 2 Pierce MD. You also got more Sideboardslots to make other MU better.

[keys]

Why did u choose to play the 2 basic lands? Isnt fire/ice missed at all? also your board isnt 15.

I'll answer the second question first: active Lavamancer is just better than Fire//Ice. The blue count is high enough with Delver replacing Mongoose, and you don't have to worry about eating up Threshold.

There are a ton of Waste-centric strategies right now between Esper, Team America, Merfolk, Aggro Loam, and Goblins (again). The basic Island is awesome to fetch out turn one if you're on 1 land with Ponder, play turn one Delver, or anytime you don't have Stifle backup. The Mountain is essential if you want to reliably activate Lavamancer throughout the course of a long game, as well as support a red-heavy SB.

Green is now a tertiary color, and since Goyf doesn't usually get casted until turn 3 or later and his effectiveness isn't hindered by a wasteland, I chose not to include a basic Forest. The only reason I would want one is as a preemptive measure against Blood Moon, so I can cast Krosan Grip, but that seems too small of a case to me. At least we have burn for Magus. I haven't had any color screw problems with this configuration so far, and I am 99% sure this is the way to go forward with Delver in the deck.

My mistake on the SB count. There should be 3 Submerge. It's constantly changing and very meta dependent anyway.

[Seb]

With only 4 Goyfs as green cards, I could see going 18 lands : 4 Volcanic, 3 Tropical, 6 Fetches, 4 Wastes and 1 Island. I don't think Mountain is necessary, since Blood Moon effects will give you enough red for a lifetime. Wasteland is a concern, but I doubt that the additional security of a second basic will outclass the inconvenience of drawing a Mountain+Wasteland hand. At least, the blue basic gives you ways to find your other colors via cantrips.

[keys]

With only 4 Goyfs as green cards, I could see going 18 lands : 4 Volcanic, 3 Tropical, 6 Fetches, 4 Wastes and 1 Island. I don't think Mountain is necessary, since Blood Moon effects will give you enough red for a lifetime. Wasteland is a concern, but I doubt that the additional security of a second basic will outclass the inconvenience of drawing a Mountain+Wasteland hand. At least, the blue basic gives you ways to find your other colors via cantrips.

Right. I'm not terribly concerned about Blood Moon. The problem is getting your Volcanic wasted right after casting Lavamancer. Without the basic Mountain, he is too fragile against Merfolk and Goblins-- two matchups where you really want him.

Mountain + Wasteland, or Mountain only hands are pretty rare, and I'm willing to take that risk.

[Seb]

Are you on 18 or 19 lands?

EDIT : Yes you are, saw your earlier post. That solves the problem of the basic mountain. Maybe that 18 is greedy.

[keys]

Are you on 18 or 19 lands?

Currently 19 with 8 cantrips. 7th fetch could be another cantrip, but I like erring on the side of additional lands.

4 Tarn
3 blue fetch
3 Volc
3 Trop
1 Island
1 Mountain

[Pippin]

Ok, after testing a bit with Delver of Secrets I can say that my initial impressions were wrong. He fits the tempo archetype perfectly and perhaps could push Tempo Thresh variant to next evolution step. I'm mainly talking about straight U/R version replacing U/G/x.

Main advantages with playing only 2 colors are not only being immune to wasteland plan, but getting access to cards like blood moon/magus of the moon (which were previously good against the deck) and something like plain old school Counterspell while at the same time not loosing any raw attacking power thanks to Delver of Secrets.

Quick list:

4 Wasteland
4 Volcanic Island
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
2 Island
4 Scalding Tarn

2 Vendilion Clique
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fire // Ice

Snapcaster Mage is cute and everything, but his mana cost is usually at least 3cc, bringing back bolt/counterspell at most (and usually failing at that due to opponents dazes), while having no evasion. Every other creature in deck has either flying or can deal direct damage over several turns.

My main worry now is if this is the correct thread for this tempo variant. This isn't thresh anymore, that's for sure - but a very consistent tempo deck that can have some very explosive draws (like transformed delver into another followed by countermagic). Should someone start a new thread?

[keys]

Goyf is such a good clock when backed up by disruption, I don't think I would cut him in this style of deck. However, if you add a couple Trinket Mages and a Phyrexian Dreadnought to that list, it would resemble AJ Sacher's U/R tempo deck.

[Dritzz]

Goyf is such a good clock when backed up by disruption, I don't think I would cut him in this style of deck.
+1
Anyway,I don´t think that is the best option to play the 2 basics lands in this deck.I know that lavamancer needs R each turn,but the basic mountain is so horrible. My current list is:

3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Snare
4 Ponder
2 Dismember
+1 Slot

1 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

I don´t know what to play,if the preordain or the third copy of dismember.Probably i will play the dismember because now I only play 3 submerge in SB and I like to have some outs to kill KotR,RWM and goyfs in the MD.I play only 3 tropical because now i play only goyfs and one or two cards in SB and a fetch more for the lavamancer. My SB:

1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Tormod´s Crypt
3 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge
+1 Slot

At first,this slot were a pyroclasm,but know playing delver+lavamancer I think that it´s not the best option.Opinions for this slot???

[Seb]

Fire/Ice is an option that is still solid against tribal. Also, Firespout can be a replacement, since at least, it will not kill your Delver (most of the times, you Spout the ground).

Pyroclasm is indeed terrible with the current configuration.

[Vandalize]

This deck is brutal.

Delver of Secrets is such an awsome creature that can deliver damage and build a fast clock like a boss. Paired up with Goyfs and Grim Lavamancers, this deck has the power to become top tier in the post-MMS metagame. Innistrad gave the deck what it was lacking back on the Moongoose ages, raw power and speed.

Dritzz list seems pretty good, but I'd switch those Crypts with Surgical Extraction. Dismember is gold and Fire/Ice isn't optimal.

[Grizzly_Bear]

???!
Just draw blue mana from your trops...

Not sure Firespout is needed either way. What do you want it against? Zoo and Maverick? I've just using Submerge/Mind Hardnees and it's been working fine, especially with dismember in maindeck.

[Dritzz]

3 volcanics or wastes to play firespout??? lol?
I dont think mind harness is a good option.In this version the grim lavamancer needs R,and mind harness is so mana intensive.With submerge and dismember is ok.

In my list,finally i play the preordain over dismember.The rest is the same like the list of Caplan(-1 tropi +1 fetch,only playing goyfs and for the lavamancer).Finally,the SB is like this:

1 Firespout
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ravenous Trap
3 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge

This weekend i will play an invitational tournament here in Spain and another tournament called Eternal Weeken with a lot of players with this list.On Sunday i will tell you my impresions =D

[kues]

I dont think Ravenous Trap is a good anti graveyard card right now. I dont want to play an anti-graveyard card which is useless agains reanimator... I would play a Tormod's over it.

[Dritzz]

I dont think Ravenous Trap is a good anti graveyard card right now. I dont want to play an anti-graveyard card which is useless agains reanimator... I would play a Tormod's over it.

You will win reanimator with your counterwall.2 surgical+3 spell pierce+3 reb/pyro+counterwall MD.I want the third slot anti grave in my side to have the best card against dredge so i play the trap and have 3 good slots vs it,2 surgical+1 trap. Tormod is worse against both.Reanimator play pithin and null rod and dredge play a lot of anti hate that are in play,like grudge,pithin,natures claim etc etc,but if you have the hate card in hand they only have the cabal and with 2 surgical+counterwall is ok vs reanimator

[kingsey]

Goyf is such a good clock when backed up by disruption, I don't think I would cut him in this style of deck. However, if you add a couple Trinket Mages and a Phyrexian Dreadnought to that list, it would resemble AJ Sacher's U/R tempo deck.


Keys, do you have a non-mental mistep trinket mage list? Collar on grim is just sooo good. The delver flip guy is interesting, but when running stifle anyway i'd love to play naught as a HUGE clock. once u have them on the ropes digging for somthing to get them back in the game, he just shuts shit down asap. Here is a pre-MM list of mine

3x Grim lavamancer
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Trinket mage
2x Vendilion Clique


4x stifle
4x fire//ice
4x daze
4x force of will
3x spell snare
4x brainstorm


1x engineered explosives
1x phyrexian dreadnought
1x basilisk collar
1x pithing needle

2x islands
1x forest
4x misty rainforest
4x scalding tarn
3x tropical island
3x volcanic island
4x wasteland

[Waikiki]

If you look at the dreadlist thread u can see posts from keys and mee about an updated list. (I see you did)

[keys]

Just made Top 8 of a 42 man tournament with UGR Canadian Thresh with Delvers. I probably would have won the tourney had I not lost game 3 of round 1 of the Top 8 against Zoo by mulling to an unplayable 4 cards.

Delvers are sick but playing with checklists in my deck of foils and fbbs makes me want to cry.

Possible tourney report to come if anyone's interested.

[TarmoRhox]

What was your decklist?

[spartan117]

Yesterday I attended the Ovino 6 tournament here in Italy and I ended up 6th out of 390 players playing canadian thresh with delver.
I played every single match for 9 rounds.

Here's the decklist:

4 tarmogoyf
4 delver of secrets
3 nimble mongoose

4 force of will
4 daze
4 stifle
3 spell snare
4 lightning bolt
2 fire//ice
2 dismember
4 brainstorm
4 ponder

4 wooded foothills
2 flooded strand
4 tropical island
4 volcanic island
4 wasteland


Sideboard:

3 spell pierce
1 red elemental blast
2 pyroblast
2 krosan grip
2 mind harness
3 submerge
2 surgical extraction


Here's a brief report of what I found in the swiss rounds.

Round 1

ur storm: 2-0

Round 2

Canadian thresh: 2-0

Round 3

Ant (with 7 orim effects): 2-1, lost g1

Round 4

TES: 2-1, lost g1

Round 5

MUD: 2-1, g2 had to mull@3

Round 6

Cascade ugr: 0-2 (opponent only lost in the finals)

Round 7

Sneak and tell: 2-1, lost g2

Round 8

Faeries ugr: 2-0

Round 9

Belcher: 2-0


Top8

Lost 0-2 against team america feat. snapback mage (he eventually won the tournament).

The metagame presented lots of tempo and combo decks. There was also a good amount of zoo, merfolk and GW maverick. I actually didn't see a lot of blackbased decks such as rock or pikula, which surprised me a bit after the ban of MM.

Top8 looked like this:

2 canadian thresh
1 team america (the guy I lost to)
1 cascade ugr (the other guy I lost to)
1 gw maverick
1 spiral tide
1 order rug
1 thopter foundry

I was really looking forward to such a finish after several top8's in 45-50 man tournaments, and I finally got it.

I just don't know why there's was such a big comeback of canadian thresh but I'm simply amazed by how many mongeese I saw killing their opponents :laugh:

Long life to canadian thresh! Welcome back! (if you ever went away)

[DragoFireheart]

If there was ever a deck to run Snapcaster Mage and Delver of Secrets in, this would be the deck.

[Esper3k]

Just made Top 8 of a 42 man tournament with UGR Canadian Thresh with Delvers. I probably would have won the tourney had I not lost game 3 of round 1 of the Top 8 against Zoo by mulling to an unplayable 4 cards.

Delvers are sick but playing with checklists in my deck of foils and fbbs makes me want to cry.

Possible tourney report to come if anyone's interested.

Well, what you can do is that you can have 2 sets of foil Delvers - one as Delver in your deck, one flipped as Insect Abberation and in different sleeves separate and just swap them out whenever Delver would flip, essentially treating the Insect Abberations like tokens.