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keys
10-02-2011, 02:13 PM
Well, what you can do is that you can have 2 sets of foil Delvers - one as Delver in your deck, one flipped as Insect Abberation and in different sleeves separate and just swap them out whenever Delver would flip, essentially treating the Insect Abberations like tokens.

I would not have minded just taking them out of the sleeves each time they flip. The problem was you could see the card faces through the back of my sleeves (Ultra Pro Matte Green with perfect fits)...

The list I used was the same as Goobafish's from a couple pages back:

4 Delver
4 Goyf
3 Lavamancer
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Bolt
2 Dismember
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
4 Wasteland
4 Trop
4 Volc
3 Tarn
3 Misty

Sideboard:
3 Submerge
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Blast
2 Pierce
1 Grip
1 Grudge
1 Firespout
1 Tormod's Crypt (replaced a Mind Harness last minute)

I ended up not going with basics just to see what it was like. I think this probably is correct, however I didn't play against Merfolk or Goblins, so I'm not really sure.

Here's a quick summary of my games:

Round 1: Paired against my friend Kevin playing an Esperblade brew with Confidant, Snapcaster Mage, and Unearth (!). I win the roll and play a Delver, which he Plows. I double Waste and he draws out. I Stifle his Stoneforge trigger and he has the Batterskull anyway. I Dismember the germ but then he plays Snapcaster Mage targeting a Plow, removing my other creature. He eventually gets enough land to equip Batterskull and win. Game 2 is not much different with him drawing the nuts. The deck can do some stupid tricks with Unearth, which you can just cycle when nothing is in the yard, and flashback later with a Snapcaster Mage. You can also do some sick chains like Unearth -> Snapcaster -> flashback Unearth -> Clique.

0-1

Round 2: My opponent playing Dredge mulls to 4 game 1. I Daze something and Stifle his Coliseum, and two Goyfs clean up. Game 2 he gets an Imp out and starts dredging early. I draw Surgical Extraction for his first Ichorid to slow things down. I Fow his Dread Return, and then Firespout his zombies and my own Lavamancer to remove his Bridges and seal the game.

1-1

Round 3: I win the roll against Omar playing NO RUG, and proceed to Stifle and Waste the only lands he draws all game. Unfortunately, I didn't pay enough attention to his discard pile and mistakenly put him on Stoneblade and sideboarded completely wrong for game 2. I keep a slow hand with Grip and draw into Grudge as well. Eventually I brainstorm them away, but by then he has ramped to 4 mana and casts Jace, which I FoW, followed by Natural Order, which resolves. Game 3 I take out the blasts and artifact hate for Submerges and Spell Pierces. The deck does its thing and he can't keep any permanents on the board. I get there with some flying Delvers and a hand full of disruption.

2-1

Round 4: Again, I win the roll against Wes with his red splash BUG Control list (with Counterspells, Stalkers, Goyfs, Deeds, and Firespout). Game 1 I Waste his colored lands. He resolves a Top, but I Stifle all his fetches so he can't shuffle the chaff. I think a Delver or two gets there. Game 2 I make a pretty savage misplay by casting Dismember on his 5/6 Goyf (I forgot about the Deed in his yard). I try to save face and cast my second Dismember and we get into a counter war which I lose. 8 life later and 2 swings from Goyf and I'm dead. Game 3 I start off with some land destruction and start beating with a Delver and a 3/4 Goyf. He stabalizes at 8 life with a Stalker, but I eventually draw a 2nd Delver and then just swing twice for the win. Turns out he had a Firespout that he didn't cast because he didn't have a red source, even though he had a green. By the time he casted it, I had the counter. It's possible that mistake could have changed the game.

3-1

Round 5: Brian Kibler with Junk. Game 1 he Swords both my early Delver and Goyf, putting me ahead on life. I try to cut him off green with a Stifle and a Wasteland, but he draws into more land and casts a Knight. It doesn't matter though, because a second Delver and a Lavamancer easily race him with the extra life as a buffer. Game 2 was the biggest blowout of the day. He mulls to 6 and goes Mox, Mox, Confidant. I play land, bolt. Next turn Ancient Grudge, Daze his Zenith for zero.

4-1

Round 6: ID.

4-1-1

Top 8: I get paired round 1 with Chris playing Zoo, my only semi-difficult matchup in the T8. Whoever starts is usually at a huge advantage, so I'm pretty happy to win the roll. I play Volcanic, go. He drops a Taiga and a Nacatl, which I bolt EoT. On my next turn I Waste his Taiga and hold up Stifle mana. He keeps drawing land, but no gas except for a Sylvan Library. My Goyf gets in for some damage and a Bolt seals it.

Game 2 is close. He starts out strong with all three basics, a Nacatl, Kird Ape, and Goblin Guide, and draws two extra cards with Sylvan Library, putting me on defense quite fast. I get a Goyf and and Lavamancer which kills his cat and ape, but his burn puts me down 1 life after I Force a Helix. The Goyf gets Pathed so it's his Guide against my Lavamancer. I risk it a bit and tap out to mance his Guide on the next attack, but he Helixes me afterward while I am tapped out with Spell Snare in hand. Had I chump blocked, Snared the Helix, and then casted the Firespout I knew was on the top of my deck, the game might have kept going. But being at 1 life with no blockers against a Zoo deck with Sylvan Library in play is not a very good position.

Game 3 was a crushing loss. I knew that I was favored on the play, so the match should have been mine. My opening 7 had no lands. I mull into Wasteland and 5 nonlands. I mull again into Wasteland and 4 nonlands. I mull a third and final time into Wasteland and 3 nonlands. Submerge, Daze, Stifle. I figure if I rip a land I could maybe pull it out. I draw cantrips but no lands. Very annoying way to end a tournament. The other decks in the Top 8 were Reanimator, Storm, Stoneblade, Merfolk, Dredge, and something else I didn't see. It also sucks that the prize payout was so top heavy: 1st got 4 foil Goyfs, 8th got $40 store credit...

All in all, I had a blast with the deck and plan to keep playing it. Delver was consistently great all day. Lavamancer and Dismember were each pretty good, too.

frenchy-man
10-02-2011, 05:35 PM
Why do you guys prefer dismember to fire/ice or to chain lightning ? It allows to deal with an early tarmo/kotr but is it better than some more burns/tap effects (especially against combo decks or control decks).

@ spartan : Congratulations for your finish ! Why do you play moongoose instead of grim lavamncer ? You did not face any aggro decks but in this case it would have been better, wouldn't it ? Also I ask you the same question : why do you play dismembe ?

keys
10-02-2011, 05:39 PM
Dismember is straight tempo. For 1 colorless, it kills stuff like Tombstalker, Knight of the Reliquary, Jin Gitaxis, germ tokens, and big Goyfs (basically, all the stuff your burn can't kill on its own). It's also good against anything with pro red, like a creature equipped with SoFaI, or Sphinx of the Steel Wind.

mackaber
10-02-2011, 05:51 PM
Interesting to see people are running mongeese instead of Lavamancer. I've really been digging Lavamancer a lot since he makes a lot of tough matchups a walk in the park. But he's not really beatdown and ties down a lot of mana so in a combo meta as it seems spartan was facing in Italy goose is just way better.
Also 390 people? Wow!

Dark Ritual
10-03-2011, 02:25 AM
Why do you guys prefer dismember to fire/ice or to chain lightning ? It allows to deal with an early tarmo/kotr but is it better than some more burns/tap effects (especially against combo decks or control decks).

@ spartan : Congratulations for your finish ! Why do you play moongoose instead of grim lavamncer ? You did not face any aggro decks but in this case it would have been better, wouldn't it ? Also I ask you the same question : why do you play dismembe ?

Dismember kills almost every relevant creature in the format for just one mana? There's also the fact that it is arguably the best removal spell since swords to plowshares.

Fire//ice doesn't kill that much these days besides dryad arbor and noble hierarch along with some random X/2's. It's simply a fog against KotR and other big creature we can't handle. It also costs 2 mana, which is significantly more than 1 mana in a deck running 18-20 lands.

Also, when you face zero aggro decks you don't need grim lavamancer. Lavamancer is an anti aggro card; against control, lavamancer is just a burn to the dome type card or kill a mishra's factory maybe. Nimble mongoose shines against control; his shroud ability gives them fits when he resolves and the only answer they have to turn 1 mongoose is an unanswered mishra's factory or a force of will, and we can simply daze FoW to blow them the fuck out on tempo.

Overall, if you expect aggro run lavamancer. If you expect lots of control run mongoose.

Wow that prize payout was awful keys in terms of distribution. 1st place gets 800+ dollars and 4 very hard to obtain cards at that (foil goyfs are very chase) while 8th gets 40 bucks in store credit. 40 bucks in store credit gets you what, one liliana of the veil? Snapcaster mage + something else? Seems rather poor.

Grizzly_Bear
10-03-2011, 05:19 AM
Regarding Lavamancer vs. Mongoose:

I played Caplans list (-preordain, + 1 land) in a GPT this weekend. I got my ass kicked this weekend due to repeatedly playing against Control decks with inf. removal and lategame bombs (planeswalkers). My inability to end the game fast enough when my opponents kept removing my threats, mad all my attempts to gain tempo in the earlygame totaly worthless. Nimble mongoose would have been Sooo good in these games obvioulsy, so I'm going to change back.

Still, I can imagine playing both, since 3 nimble mongoose are easily changed into 3 lavamancers from the SB. Suggested SB below:

3 grim lavamancer
3 pyroblast
3 submerge
2 spell pierce
2 vendilion clique
1 krosan grip
1 ancient grudge

Dritzz
10-03-2011, 09:05 AM
Yesterday I attended the Ovino 6 tournament here in Italy and I ended up 6th out of 390 players playing canadian thresh with delver.
I played every single match for 9 rounds.

Here's the decklist:

4 tarmogoyf
4 delver of secrets
3 nimble mongoose

4 force of will
4 daze
4 stifle
3 spell snare
4 lightning bolt
2 fire//ice
2 dismember
4 brainstorm
4 ponder

4 wooded foothills
2 flooded strand
4 tropical island
4 volcanic island
4 wasteland


Sideboard:

3 spell pierce
1 red elemental blast
2 pyroblast
2 krosan grip
2 mind harness
3 submerge
2 surgical extraction


Here's a brief report of what I found in the swiss rounds.

Round 1

ur storm: 2-0

Round 2

Canadian thresh: 2-0

Round 3

Ant (with 7 orim effects): 2-1, lost g1

Round 4

TES: 2-1, lost g1

Round 5

MUD: 2-1, g2 had to mull@3

Round 6

Cascade ugr: 0-2 (opponent only lost in the finals)

Round 7

Sneak and tell: 2-1, lost g2

Round 8

Faeries ugr: 2-0

Round 9

Belcher: 2-0


Top8

Lost 0-2 against team america feat. snapback mage (he eventually won the tournament).

The metagame presented lots of tempo and combo decks. There was also a good amount of zoo, merfolk and GW maverick. I actually didn't see a lot of blackbased decks such as rock or pikula, which surprised me a bit after the ban of MM.

Top8 looked like this:

2 canadian thresh
1 team america (the guy I lost to)
1 cascade ugr (the other guy I lost to)
1 gw maverick
1 spiral tide
1 order rug
1 thopter foundry

I was really looking forward to such a finish after several top8's in 45-50 man tournaments, and I finally got it.

I just don't know why there's was such a big comeback of canadian thresh but I'm simply amazed by how many mongeese I saw killing their opponents :laugh:

Long life to canadian thresh! Welcome back! (if you ever went away)

I played the same list in Eternal Weekend (294 players) in Spain on saturday and i made top 16.I think that it´s the best list,but i played -2 dismember +2 fire/ice and 1 dismember in SB

kiblast
10-03-2011, 10:01 AM
I really like Delver of Secrets and seeing all those Tempo Thresh at Ovino 6 made me really happy, as I love the concept behind tempo decks, and especially UR/URx Tempo. Before sleeving this deck, however , I'd like to clarify some (at least for me) misty points.
The mainly point I'm missing now is why should one keep playing green for Tarmogoyf and Mongoose.

Normally Goyf alone is a 4/5 turns clock. Delver/Clique+ Grim in team (I'd really play 4, seriously in Europe we're flooded with Maverick and Merfolk so I see no reason of running less than 4, plus is a huge pain in the ass for decks relying only/mainly on planeswalkers to win.) actually keep the same race, but with the added flexibility-board control that Grim (and Clique to a lesser extent)gives.

Obviously, a 18 lands 3colours manabase is way less stable than a 2colours one with 8 Fetchlands, 4 Duals, and the 2 basics. Moreover, an UR list could boast complete invulnerability to Moon effects.

Secondarily, I'm not sold on Snapcaster Mage here. 2 cc+ at least 1 cc spell in a deck built to work with 2 lands is not so good...and other than an additional Brainstorm or Bolt, wtf I get, a 2/1 body? I'd play him only if we still had Misstep legal, but now,I'd really play Clique instead, which is a better clock by herself+ has evasion.

GGoober
10-03-2011, 10:05 AM
kiblast, I piloted a UBr Tempo list last week. Granted it's not Tempo Thresh (but this archetype won't be much Thresh anymore without the goose lol). A suite of 4 Delver, 4 Tombstalker, 3 Clique was really really scary when they stick in play (i.e. 2-2.5 turn clock) and a fast clock backed with Bolts.

The only issue I had was: just relying on Clique and Delver is still not enough, because both creatures have very fragile toughness, you will lose to a single lavamancer/fire//Ice/Sharpshooter etc. Another creature with a big ass is needed e.g. Goyf/Tombstalker etc. I've been building quite a lot of lists and UBr has been treating me well, the mana/color is an issue because Tombstalker's BB is a fucking pain when you compare it next to Goyf's super-easy cost of 1G (i.e. sometimes you draw a dual and a Wasteland and want to shoot yourself for playing Tombstalker/Team America instead of Goyfs).

Snapcaster is the flavor of the month/set. Snapcasting in a Uxr shell is terrible. 3 mana for a flashbacked bolt/brainstorm? That's alright, Snapcasting is best played in Uwx or UBx shell, and like you said, just a Clique does a good job at both beating down AND disruption, whereas Snapcaster is mediocore at beating down and does an average job at disruption in the Uxr shell (if you're playing in a Uwx/Ubx shell, playing Snapcasters make more sense). But SCG people enjoy their own series of flavor decks, and people tend to ignore non-SCG events for some reasons. I personally only check tcdecks if I want an idea on what are the good cards/decks being played in the Legacy metagame.

mackaber
10-03-2011, 03:14 PM
The problem with straight UR is the lack of men. Snapcaster sucks. Clique is good but very expensive at 3 mana and requires you to run more than 18 lands imo. Also not having anyone with a big but means you'll never be blocking and loosing out to opposing Goyfs.

Pippin
10-03-2011, 04:16 PM
The problem with straight UR is the lack of men. Snapcaster sucks. Clique is good but very expensive at 3 mana and requires you to run more than 18 lands imo. Also not having anyone with a big but means you'll never be blocking and loosing out to opposing Goyfs.

lack of men against what exactly? Against most of the decks Delvers + Lavamancers + Clique is more than enough (coupled with burn).
If there is a problematic matchup, like for example goblins where lack of goyf really hurts, one can play something like Phyrexian Dreadnought in sideboard and get a 2 hit monster without going into 3rd color...

frenchy-man
10-03-2011, 04:47 PM
Against, say, knight of the reliquary or tarmogoyf for example.

By the way, I tested the list that placed 6th at Ovino, and I like the 2 dismembers md et delvers. Really.
What's more, in a aggro/combo oriented metagame, I'll problably drop the geese to play lavamancers in those slots. I really like those instant wins on turn 1 against maverick/elfball/merfolk/gob.

Purgatory
10-03-2011, 07:14 PM
I tested Delvers today, and just fooled around for a bit, playing a number of hands against Goblins and casual Vampires. I must say, I am thoroughly impressed. Even though I was sceptical at first, being able to drop a creature on turn one and then swing for three on turn two is something only Zoo ought to be able to do.

The list I tested was more or less the standard list of the past couple of pages, but with Geese over Lavamancers, 2 Fire // Ice, 2 Dismembers and 3 Spell Snares.

keys
10-03-2011, 08:16 PM
I dont think Ravenous Trap is a good anti graveyard card right now. I dont want to play an anti-graveyard card which is useless agains reanimator... I would play a Tormod's over it.

I was reading previous posts and couldn't let this go without mentioning the following: Ravenous Trap's alternative mana cost is surprisingly easy to activate. Fetch->Entomb, or a single Careful Study will power it up. Similar to Surgical Extraction, Trap allows the possibility of 2-for-1ing your opponent if they go Fetch->Entomb->Reanimate or Careful Study->Exhume on the same turn. This will never happen with a Tormod's Crypt. More importantly, Trap does not get hosed by Pithing Needle or Null Rod, both of which are increasingly popular in Reanimator sideboards. Dredge also plays Needle as well as Grudge and Natures Claim.

My current Sideboard:

3 Surgical Extraction - Great vs Reanimator, Dredge, and especially Life From the Loam
1 Ravenous Trap - Better vs Dredge but also good against Reanimator for the reasons stated above
3 Submerge - Maverick, Zoo, Junk, NO RUG, Team America, Elves
3 Red Elemental Blast - U/x Control, Merfolk, Show & Tell, High Tide, Painter
2 Spell Pierce - Control, Combo, Team America, Junk
2 Krosan Grip/Ancient Grudge - Affinity, Stoneblade, Counterbalance, Enchantress, Chalice-based decks (very meta dependent)
1 Firespout - Goblins, Merfolk, Elves, Dredge, Zoo

(Notice, every card flips Delver)

CaBaaL
10-04-2011, 08:10 AM
I was reading previous posts and couldn't let this go without mentioning the following: Ravenous Trap's alternative mana cost is surprisingly easy to activate. Fetch->Entomb, or a single Careful Study will power it up. Similar to Surgical Extraction, Trap allows the possibility of 2-for-1ing your opponent if they go Fetch->Entomb->Reanimate or Careful Study->Exhume on the same turn. This will never happen with a Tormod's Crypt. More importantly, Trap does not get hosed by Pithing Needle or Null Rod, both of which are increasingly popular in Reanimator sideboards. Dredge also plays Needle as well as Grudge and Natures Claim.

My current Sideboard:

3 Surgical Extraction - Great vs Reanimator, Dredge, and especially Life From the Loam
1 Ravenous Trap - Better vs Dredge but also good against Reanimator for the reasons stated above
3 Submerge - Maverick, Zoo, Junk, NO RUG, Team America, Elves
3 Red Elemental Blast - U/x Control, Merfolk, Show & Tell, High Tide, Painter
2 Spell Pierce - Control, Combo, Team America, Junk
2 Krosan Grip/Ancient Grudge - Affinity, Stoneblade, Counterbalance, Enchantress, Chalice-based decks (very meta dependent)
1 Firespout - Goblins, Merfolk, Elves, Dredge, Zoo

(Notice, every card flips Delver)

I had the same SB on my last tournament (+1 firespout in place of the ravenous trap). 18 lands are realy low for 3 mana on turn 3 thats why I replaced firespout with pyroclasm (maybe volcanic fallout but merfolks is an easy MU anyway).

CaBaaL
10-04-2011, 08:11 AM
I was reading previous posts and couldn't let this go without mentioning the following: Ravenous Trap's alternative mana cost is surprisingly easy to activate. Fetch->Entomb, or a single Careful Study will power it up. Similar to Surgical Extraction, Trap allows the possibility of 2-for-1ing your opponent if they go Fetch->Entomb->Reanimate or Careful Study->Exhume on the same turn. This will never happen with a Tormod's Crypt. More importantly, Trap does not get hosed by Pithing Needle or Null Rod, both of which are increasingly popular in Reanimator sideboards. Dredge also plays Needle as well as Grudge and Natures Claim.

My current Sideboard:

3 Surgical Extraction - Great vs Reanimator, Dredge, and especially Life From the Loam
1 Ravenous Trap - Better vs Dredge but also good against Reanimator for the reasons stated above
3 Submerge - Maverick, Zoo, Junk, NO RUG, Team America, Elves
3 Red Elemental Blast - U/x Control, Merfolk, Show & Tell, High Tide, Painter
2 Spell Pierce - Control, Combo, Team America, Junk
2 Krosan Grip/Ancient Grudge - Affinity, Stoneblade, Counterbalance, Enchantress, Chalice-based decks (very meta dependent)
1 Firespout - Goblins, Merfolk, Elves, Dredge, Zoo

(Notice, every card flips Delver)

I had the same SB on my last tournament (+1 firespout in place of the ravenous trap). 18 lands are realy low for 3 mana on turn 3 thats why I replaced firespout with pyroclasm (maybe volcanic fallout but merfolks is an easy MU anyway).

Purgatory
10-04-2011, 08:54 AM
I had the same SB on my last tournament (+1 firespout in place of the ravenous trap). 18 lands are realy low for 3 mana on turn 3 thats why I replaced firespout with pyroclasm (maybe volcanic fallout but merfolks is an easy MU anyway).

The issue with Pyroclasm is that it won't kill Nacatls or LoA if he has 2+ lords out, though it will kill your Delvers :/

spartan117
10-04-2011, 12:40 PM
@ spartan : Congratulations for your finish ! Why do you play moongoose instead of grim lavamncer ? You did not face any aggro decks but in this case it would have been better, wouldn't it ? Also I ask you the same question : why do you play dismembe ?

I chose to play mongoose over grim lavamancer because after having tested the deck against big zoo (which sees a lot of play here in Italy) I noticed that I was unable to win due to lack of beaters (basically lavamancer was dying to punishing fire again and again). Mongoose is the real deal when facing lots of spot removals and it is exactly what you need to win when you play goyf as a lifegain to win the race (it always gets spt'ed).

Instead of having a stellar MU against merfolks and maverick I preferred a more even one against the entire field.

Regarding dismember MD I totally agree with Keys. It's pure tempo.



I played the same list in Eternal Weekend (294 players) in Spain on saturday and i made top 16.I think that it´s the best list,but i played -2 dismember +2 fire/ice and 1 dismember in SB

I'm really glad to see the deck proving its strenght in Spain too. Congratulations on the finish!



The list I tested was more or less the standard list of the past couple of pages, but with Geese over Lavamancers, 2 Fire // Ice, 2 Dismembers and 3 Spell Snares.

So the configuration is basically mine? :smile:
I'm really happy to see so many players making the same choices I did, it means where're taking the right direction to bring this deck back to the DTB forum!

1maarten1
10-04-2011, 05:42 PM
Yesterday I attended the Ovino 6 tournament here in Italy and I ended up 6th out of 390 players playing canadian thresh with delver.
I played every single match for 9 rounds.

Round 6

Cascade ugr: 0-2 (opponent only lost in the finals)

Top8 looked like this:

2 canadian thresh
1 team america (the guy I lost to)
1 cascade ugr (the other guy I lost to)
1 gw maverick
1 spiral tide
1 order rug
1 thopter foundry

Long life to canadian thresh! Welcome back! (if you ever went away)

Maybe the wrong question here, but do you maybe know where I can find the Cascade list? I searched on a couple deck-database sites but couldn't find it!

Thanks

say no to scurvy
10-04-2011, 05:48 PM
http://www.tipo1.it/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26497

Purgatory
10-04-2011, 05:58 PM
So the configuration is basically mine? :smile:
I'm really happy to see so many players making the same choices I did, it means where're taking the right direction to bring this deck back to the DTB forum!

Yeah, I noticed that too. I basically just tossed 3x Mongeese in there because my Lavamancers have yet to show up in the mail, but they were actually pretty great all day. I almost always elected to cast a Delver before the Goose if I had both in hand, but Goose sure did their part of the job too :)

Dritzz
10-04-2011, 05:58 PM
I chose to play mongoose over grim lavamancer because after having tested the deck against big zoo (which sees a lot of play here in Italy) I noticed that I was unable to win due to lack of beaters (basically lavamancer was dying to punishing fire again and again). Mongoose is the real deal when facing lots of spot removals and it is exactly what you need to win when you play goyf as a lifegain to win the race (it always gets spt'ed).

Instead of having a stellar MU against merfolks and maverick I preferred a more even one against the entire field.

Regarding dismember MD I totally agree with Keys. It's pure tempo.




I'm really glad to see the deck proving its strenght in Spain too. Congratulations on the finish!




So the configuration is basically mine? :smile:
I'm really happy to see so many players making the same choices I did, it means where're taking the right direction to bring this deck back to the DTB forum!

Yep,your MD is like mine,so i think that is perfect! My current SB is:
1 Pyroclasm
1 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Spell Pierce
4 Submerge

I played 1 dismember SB,but now i´m playing two of them MD,so i prefer the playset of submerge.Also after testing and the tournament,i prefer the third copie of surgical over the ravenous trap,because reanimator is still so good and i want one extra copie post SB to win this MU.Surgical is worse than the trap against dredge,but the people play more reanimator than dredge,and surgical is also good against dredge.So 3 surgical =D. And finally,I prefer one copie of krosan grip over ancient grudge.

I will probe the list the next weekend in the GPTs for Amsterdam and I hope to win the 3 byes,because I think that the list it´s so cool and perfect!!! xD

keys
10-04-2011, 08:02 PM
Also after testing and the tournament,i prefer the third copie of surgical over the ravenous trap,because reanimator is still so good and i want one extra copie post SB to win this MU.

Trap is better than Surgical if your opponent plays Exhume and has multiple dorks in the yard. I don't think it's necessarily worse.

BackDr0p
10-04-2011, 10:58 PM
I would have to say that, Caplan's list after extensive testing, is the real deal. IMO, Nimble Mongoose doesn't apply pressure fast enough, and frankly does not give you reach like Grim Lavamancer. Mongoose really only shines in a heavy control metagame. This is not the case in North America or Europe atm.

As for sideboard options, I've settled on the following:

1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ancient Grudge
2x Krosan Grip
2x Spell Pierce
3x Surgical Exraction
3x Pyroblast
3x Submerge

EDIT: As mentioned before, consider playing one Basic Island instead of the 4th Tropical Island. Being able to fetch out basics allows us to "play it safe" against other tempo oriented deck (Team America, Mirror, Dreadstill, etc.).

GradStudentGuy
10-04-2011, 11:23 PM
I have been toying around with delver in this deck recently and all I can say is that I am very impressed. They single handily won me games where ground creatures clog up the board where the tarmogoyf cant get through. Sure shroud is nice on mongoose but there have been far to many times were it just cant attack because the opponents creatures are too big.

DukeDemonKn1ght
10-04-2011, 11:44 PM
Can someone post a link to "Caplan's list"? The last one I can find for that name online is from like 2009, which I'm assuming isn't the latest tech.

BackDr0p
10-04-2011, 11:49 PM
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
2 Dismember
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm

4 Wasteland
4 Volc
4 Trop
6 Fetch

No sb yet. Want to see some post misstep results first.

It's just 4 pages back. Jeeze.

DukeDemonKn1ght
10-05-2011, 12:08 AM
It's just 4 pages back. Jeeze.

Didn't know that goobafish was who that was. Jeeze. :tongue:

Looks solid, except the Preordain strikes me as odd. I prefer Rushing River or Vendilion Clique, as far as singletons in this deck. Or maybe a third Dismember. Anyways, I agree with the general thought that Delver of Secrets is a freakin' house.

Waikiki
10-05-2011, 12:48 AM
You should stop looking at it as a singleton. Its the 9th cantrip.

Seb
10-05-2011, 01:03 AM
Spartan said:

So the configuration is basically mine?
I'm really happy to see so many players making the same choices I did, it means where're taking the right direction to bring this deck back to the DTB forum!

I played Can Thresh at a pretty competitive Legacy tournament this weekend a I nearly had the same list as you. I did some testing the day before with Caplan's list, and I realised 2 things :

1- Delver is insane. He really is a 3/2 flyer for U.
2- The deck loses when it fails to play an early threat.

A hand of 2 Stifles, 2 lands, Force, Snare and Waste is by no means bad, but it is not as good as it looks. With that kind of hand, without a cantrip, there's a lot of chances that you will fail to find a threat quickly, undoing all the work that your mana denial will have accomplished.

If that hand had -1 Stifle, +1 threat, it would have been insane. Can Thresh loses when it fails to apply pressure, making its disruption far less relevant. Knowing that, I knew that the one thing I wanted in the list was MOAR EARLY THREATS. At one point, I even tried Kird Ape (don't do this, it's horrible). I finally settled on 4 Delvers, 4 Goyfs and 4 Mongoose and it was great. Lavamancer was in the board because it's still very good against certain matchups, but was terrible with Mongoose. Basically, the rest of my list was the usual 4-of everything (Daze, Stifle, Snare, FOW, ...). My removal suite was 4 Bolts and 2 Dismembers. The latter was insane, F/I is definitely outdated.

It's pretty cool that we nearly arrived at the same list simultaneously.

Here's the list :

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

6 Fetches
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

BackDr0p
10-05-2011, 01:10 AM
Seb, how did you do at the f@f invitational?

Hof
10-05-2011, 03:32 AM
Nice post Seb

Lol@ Kird Ape. I also considered him - I will not waste more time then :)

About Spell Snare, I wonder if Spell Pierce isn't better in most cases? Is it really that important to counter creatures with mana cost 2?

Also, do you need the full set of volcanics with only 4 red instant spells maindeck? I think 1 basic Island is worth considering now, because you need to tap out on turn 1 more often than before now with Delver.

Esper3k
10-05-2011, 09:10 AM
Spell Snare is needed because this deck really needs to stop a lot of 2-drops that could slow/stop your beats, namely Tarmogoyf.

It's also a hard counter to Counterbalance, which I think we'll probably see more of just because people want to play it more again especially if combo continues to do well.

Einherjer
10-05-2011, 12:49 PM
Im new to this archetype, and i tried a Goyfless list, What do you think of this one?

//Lands -18
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Wastelands

//Worms-10
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Grim Lavamancer

//Burn-8
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire // Ice


//Countersuite-16
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare

//Cantrips-8
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

keys
10-05-2011, 01:13 PM
Mongoose and Lavamancer are a bad combo. Spell Snare is way better than Pierce in the maindeck for anyone wondering. If your mana denial plan is going right, it will take your opponent a while to get more than 2 mana. Daze/Stifle/Snare hands on the play are almost unbeatable.

Dark Ritual
10-05-2011, 01:14 PM
So you fold to a big creature due to lack of dismember and tarmogoyf? Doesn't seem like a good list at all on paper. Your only out to a resolved goyf is to race them with delver of secrets and grim lavamancer, which is bad with nimble mongoose as has been stated.

Spell snare generates lots of tempo and the some of the strongest cards in the format cost 2 mana. Spell pierce not hitting creatures can be huge; sure spell pierce helps in counterwars but that's about it.

Yeah please dear lord don't play kird ape lol. Awful card is awful.

F/I isn't completely obsolete; if GSZ decks are still running around and tribal strategies the card is still solid. It still has the capacity to 2 for 1; I really enjoy firing a noble hierarch and dryad arbor at the same time to completely blow them out by sinkholing them and killing their mana dork at the same time.

Windux
10-05-2011, 01:33 PM
Has anyone considered playing 1 Underground Sea due to Dismember (paying 2 life less) and Extractions?
I didn't played the deck lately and never tested the Phyrexian Mana - Lifeloss.

Or do you guys say that paying Life for Extraction isn't relevant against Dredge?

frenchy-man
10-05-2011, 01:40 PM
@ windux : Tempo is the key. One play dismember and extractions because they are free (or cost 1). The lifeloss is worth the tempo you get when you play those cards.

Dark Ritual
10-05-2011, 04:13 PM
Lifeloss against dredge is almost always relevant. But underground sea would have to be the 19th land; imagine having it in your opener because that seems really awful unless your opponent wastes a wasteland on it. I wouldn't add an underground sea to canadian thresh. Just not worth it in the end; it seems like a basic island would be better.

But extraction is just tempo. You cast it when you want unless they know you have it and cast cabal therapy but still exiling all their bridges for 2 life is a blowout. Same with reanimator; pay 2 life, essentially counter your reanimate/animate dead/exhume if you have one creature in the bin and get all copies of said creature out of your deck. Hope you won't be missing jin-gitaxias.

CaBaaL
10-05-2011, 04:54 PM
The list I am trying is:
18 lands

4 tarmogoyfs
4 delvers
3 grim lavamancer

4 brainstorm
4 ponder

4 stifle
4 daze
4 fow
3 spell pierce (it protects delver against removals so its better than spell snare imo)

4 lighting bolt
2 dismember
2 fire//ice

snapcaster is really slow as well as V.clique with this built I run zero 3 mana spells so I can activate lavamancer all the time and play my spells without any problems.
I tried the list against zoo and I actualy can out-agro them with a good hand.

Seb
10-07-2011, 12:35 AM
Backdr0p said :

Seb, how did you do at the f@f invitational?

I missed top 4 on breakers. It was a pretty weird 3 Legacy rounds, 3 INN Sealed rounds tournament. I went 2-1 in both formats.

In Legacy, I faced GerryT BUG (some ManaDeprived writers had an exclusive access to the list), Affinity and UW Wayfarer.

Against BUG, I won 2-1 on the back of manadenial. If the game goes long, you're screwed. I still think the matchup is at least 50/50.

Against Affinity, I annihilated him G1 (Turn 1 Delver, he plays a Vault Skirge, turn 2 blindly reveal Bolt, flip Delver, kill threat, waste his land, bash for 3 with Daze up). I literally countered everything he did. And game 2 and 3 I flooded like there was no tomorrow. Like more lands than spells each game. G2 I kept a shaky hand that had 4 lands, but fetches and Brainstorm. It was an ok keep, since I could shuffle back extra lands. The problem was, Brainstorm gave me 3 straight lands... I don't think the matchup is bad, I was just very unlucky.

Against UW tempo, he just kind of did nothing (durdling with Wayfairer activations while I beated him down with Delvers). That deck seems terrible.

12 threats (4 Goyfs, 4 Delvers, 4 Mongoose) was insane, and I didn't miss Lavamancer. You must play a threat that puts pressure with Can Thresh. Lavamancer does not fill the bill. However, I had 2 in my side for relevant matchups. Dismember was insane all tournament. Killing a Goyf for 1 mana is insanely satisfying.

Scordata
10-07-2011, 05:59 PM
I'm thinking about taking a tempo thresh deck with me to GP amsterdam, and I was wondering if anyone could offer some insight on the European metagame as of late. What's popular there? Is there a stronger splash color for the current environment?

My thoughts on the matter as I understand it are that Bob is probably better for the American meta, because of all the snapcaster mages, but that Canthresh is probably better in the face of GW mavrick.

For what it's worth, I tested Kaplan's newest incarnation, and I must say, "Great job!"
Dismember is such a house, I'm surprised it has taken this long to catch on. I'm keeping 2 Fire//Ice's in the board for now, for the GW and Bant decks.

I also happen to think that since counterbalance is no longer a real threat, that Nimble Mongoose is probably only apt in a zoo heavy metagame. When bringing a deck to the GP, however, I expect to face a lot of spot removal in the first few rounds, and he may go back to being in the maindeck. This means no lavamancer, and if I'm not playing lavamancer I'm probably playing BUG.

Esper3k
10-07-2011, 06:03 PM
Fire/Ice should be pretty good against the decks that run Bobs + Snapcasters as well.

I think if you're expecting a heavy Zoo presence, this deck probably isn't a good deck to run though?

Scordata
10-07-2011, 06:09 PM
The only acceptable answer for snapcaster is spell snare. Otherwise you just get 2-1ed. Sure, you can counter the STP they flash back, but they now have a 2/1, and the impunity to cast SFM on their mainphase.

It's a scary matchup. With a Bob online you get MUCH more breathing room in this scenario.

And since when does threshold have a negative zoo matchup? I thought it was even to favorable? Thresh's bad matchups, to my experience, are: zombies.dec, lands.dec, and resolvedJTMS.dec.

GGoober
10-07-2011, 06:48 PM
Add a resolved Top as well. Counterbalance was one of the deck's nightmare if they resolved Top you have nothing much to tempo. Zoo is dependent on the situation. I generally feel that Thresh is favored against Zoo (especially postboard with Submerges and Mind Harness). If Zoo draws too many Paths and Bolts, Thresh has issue because Thresh only runs that limited number of threats, but if you can stick a dude and counter everything, coupled with Wastelands on their fragile manabase, it's an easy win.

keys
10-07-2011, 06:51 PM
Zoo boils down to the coin flip from my experience.

Scordata
10-07-2011, 06:52 PM
Anyone know anything about the european meta?

Keys- just force the nacatl. Then you'll win.

frenchy-man
10-08-2011, 07:57 AM
I like to counter that turn 1 top but on the other hand I also appreciate them to lose tempo and mana by using their top. Dazes becomes much more efficient, waste too. Depending on my opening hand and the MU, top is a card I sometimes let resolves even if I could have countered it, and still manage to win.

mackaber
10-08-2011, 09:08 AM
For those running Mongeese instead of Mancers. Would you consider it viable to cut red entirely and just go straight UG like back in the day when this deck first appeared? It would really work wonders for the manabase. You'd prolly have to run a third dismemember but beyond that I wouldn't know what removal would be available or how to fill the open slots. Jitte would be nice but Mongoose doesn't like carrying stuff around. Some bounce could work but no bounce spell strikes me as overly appealing and colorless removal (e.g. birtle efigiy) is too expensive.

Grizzly_Bear
10-08-2011, 12:17 PM
@Scordata

The biggest difference from the Europoean meta and the U.S meta as I know it (i.e from what I've seen from the SCG Open tour) is that GW Maverick is the real deal over here. A lot of americans don't take it seriously, but you will probably face at least one skilled pilot playing that deck, and it can be a true headache.

Apart from that, I guess it's the usual suspects...

Esper3k
10-08-2011, 12:46 PM
For those running Mongeese instead of Mancers. Would you consider it viable to cut red entirely and just go straight UG like back in the day when this deck first appeared? It would really work wonders for the manabase. You'd prolly have to run a third dismemember but beyond that I wouldn't know what removal would be available or how to fill the open slots. Jitte would be nice but Mongoose doesn't like carrying stuff around. Some bounce could work but no bounce spell strikes me as overly appealing and colorless removal (e.g. birtle efigiy) is too expensive.

Dismember is effectively colorless removal...

Scordata
10-08-2011, 12:46 PM
Thanks Grizzly. I think MD explosives might warrant an inclusion.
Not to mention Massacre and Disfigure in the SB.

Seb
10-08-2011, 12:57 PM
Originally Posted by mackaber:

For those running Mongeese instead of Mancers. Would you consider it viable to cut red entirely and just go straight UG like back in the day when this deck first appeared? It would really work wonders for the manabase. You'd prolly have to run a third dismemember but beyond that I wouldn't know what removal would be available or how to fill the open slots. Jitte would be nice but Mongoose doesn't like carrying stuff around. Some bounce could work but no bounce spell strikes me as overly appealing and colorless removal (e.g. birtle efigiy) is too expensive.

Red gives you really important sideboard options, namely Grim and Red Blast. Without those, you pretty much auto-lose to Folks. And with the more agressive shell of TT (namely more 1 drops and Delver), Bolt is very relevant. It's not a "bad STP" anymore.

I would not cut red ever.

frenchy-man
10-08-2011, 01:15 PM
@Scordata

The biggest difference from the Europoean meta and the U.S meta as I know it (i.e from what I've seen from the SCG Open tour) is that GW Maverick is the real deal over here. A lot of americans don't take it seriously, but you will probably face at least one skilled pilot playing that deck, and it can be a true headache.

Apart from that, I guess it's the usual suspects...

Exact. I would had that there will probably be a lot of combo decks, as there's is a kind of tradition in Germany to play combo, and in France high tide is considered as one of the best deck of the format. You'll also have to deal with a lot of reanimators, as the deck is very powerful and not difficult to play.
Therefore I think that, with an adapted sideboard, canadian thresh is a good choice for the gp.

HAVE HEART
10-08-2011, 02:27 PM
Zoo boils down to the coin flip from my experience.

I played the matchup a lot before Delver of Secrets. The mana denial and Lightning Bolt go a long way in winning. With Nimble Mongoose, the matchup felt very solid for Tempo Thresh. Then again, I had Submerge and Mind Harness in the sideboard. Mind Harness seems a lot weaker now that not as many decks are using Tarmogoyf as a win condition compared to 1.5-2 years ago.

Vandalize
10-08-2011, 06:10 PM
I played the matchup a lot before Delver of Secrets. The mana denial and Lightning Bolt go a long way in winning. With Nimble Mongoose, the matchup felt very solid for Tempo Thresh. Then again, I had Submerge and Mind Harness in the sideboard. Mind Harness seems a lot weaker now that not as many decks are using Tarmogoyf as a win condition compared to 1.5-2 years ago.

Hello, my name is Knight of the Reliquary.

Zilla
10-08-2011, 08:49 PM
Hello, my name is Knight of the Reliquary.
Seems like a lot of Zoo builds have dropped KotR for the faster more 1cc drop approach like Cat Sligh now that Misstep is out of the format. KotR is a midrange card, (albeit a fantastic one) and for Zoo to stand a chance in a meta full of fast combo, it has to be an early game deck or lose.

KotR is probably going to see a lot less play now, with the exception of decks like Bant and Maverick.

Scordata
10-09-2011, 01:18 AM
For what its worth, when delver gets the go ahead over goose, we loose our edge over the control decks. Where before they had to find and edict or wrath effect to deal with him, we are now suseptable to the everymans removal. Even lightning bolt.

I think if you are going to play lavamancer, delver is the way to go. Otherwise mongoose is where its at.

practical joke
10-09-2011, 06:22 AM
For what its worth, when delver gets the go ahead over goose, we loose our edge over the control decks. Where before they had to find and edict or wrath effect to deal with him, we are now suseptable to the everymans removal. Even lightning bolt.

I think if you are going to play lavamancer, delver is the way to go. Otherwise mongoose is where its at.

I played dark tempo treshhold y-day for a et of byes...not losing a single match.

6-0-2 (splitting finals)

There's no way, and really no way, that after yesterday I would think about playing delvers over nimble mongoose in the black version (red is different though).

just being able to drop that threat T1, and being able to protect it all the way is major. I won games due to it having shroud.
Although I won half of the matches by screwing my opponents big time.

MU's:

Round 1: BW stoneblade:
both games were the same, he mulliganned, I took out his only threats (confidant, stoneforge and bitterblossom) and manabase. no realy games played

Round 2: The Rock:
Game 1, lose to him having a lot of mana and a thrun that snuck through.
Game 2: Win by taking down his few spells by daze and snare, he lost due to an active confidant.
Game 3: He starts with bayou seize: takes out mind harness, waste his bayou, he goes bayou GSZ for 0.
At that point I was certain this game was mine. Demised his dryad arbor, and next turn confidant and wasteland took him back to square 1.

Round 3: Spiral tide
G1, I win due to mongoose and 2 stifles (he never got to 3 mana)
G2, I have a lot clock, counter a few scrolls, he tries to go off with 3 pacts as back-up, I extirpate his scrolls, leaving him with a deck with only 2 outs. he fizzles, I win. (extirpates came in, since I had dead cards maindeck and actually wasn't expecting fancy tech like xantid swarm)

Round 4: ID vs DTT

a good friend of mine, only a 1 card difference mainboard and 2 sideboard.... we really didn't feel like playing this mirror.

Round 5: Rec- Rock
G1: I completely ruin his gameplan and win due to that
G2: Took some time, he resolved thrun. my goyf was way bigger and kept beating him down slowly keeping a stifle for his regenerate trigger. never needed it, he played deed, which I had to stifle, he attacked with a troll. I had to find a single removal card. Took down a wall of blossoms, stole another one an alphastriked him down.

Round 6: Id vs Stoneblade.


T8: Reanimate
G1: he wanted to drop anyways, since he had byes and got the money. We played nonetheless. I took down his every effort to get mana going and beat him with a single creature.
G2: I have an okay-ish hand, he has the nuts...
G3: I takes no risks and go for basics, but after I stifled away a few things he never got a black mana to do things... the force and double daze back-up from start to finish were enough for him to believe he wouldn't have made it anyways.

T4: blue zoo:
G1: I take out his speed while dropping a confidant, he kills it after 3 turns, and I just drop a new one.
G2: I lose to a mull to 5 (his side), and he wins with a topdeck mind harness to be able to continue the pressure.
G3: I take out his manabase with 2 stifle and 2 wasteland. rest of the game ended in draw-discard-go while somehow was still holding more stifles and had a confidant online.

Finals would've been TES: friend of mine, but then again...didn't feel like playing even though I've got a very good feeling about that match-up.

Windux
10-09-2011, 06:31 AM
I won a GPT yesterday with CanThresh.
21 Players, 5 Rounds + Top8:

The list I played was:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Wooded Foothills (Best Fetch ;) )
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Krosan Grip
2 Firespout
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ravenous Trap
3 Surgial Extraction
3 Submerge
2 Spell Pierce

I expected a lot of decks like Black Thresh, TA and combo (because it was played on the last GPT I attended).

The meta was something like:
4 Stormbuilds (DDFT, 2 ANT, DDFT + 1 AD Hybrid)
3-4 Maverick
1 CanThresh (old list with F/I without Delver)
1 BUG Control
1 Bant Control /w GSZ and Knight of the Reliquary
3-4 Dredge

Round 1:
BUG Control
I win G1 und G3 because of my manadenial.
Delver of Secrets supported this plan pretty good, getting flipped Turn 2 ;)

Round 2: U-Lands
G1 I screw him.
G2 He crushes me with a Wurmcoil Engine, but without Loam Engine (Extraction ;) )
G3 I screw him again.

Round 3:
Bant Control
G1 i have no chance against Knight of the Reliquary and Terravore.
G2 I do have Submerges and Submerge his accelerationcreatures (Dryad, Hierarch) and beat him down with Tarmogoyf
G3 I beat him open with a Delver, after I submerged his Dryad Arbor Turn 1 (he is on the play) and play the Delver Turn 2, having mana open to Stifle his Fetch...and his 2nd Fetch....and his 3rd Fetch ;)

Round 4: ANT
This matchup iseasy for us. Just stick a Delver and do nothing except cantripping for counter :)


Round 5: Burn
We draw because I'm first anyway.
But even this game I win 2-1 (again, thanks to Delver).

Top8:
Bant Control:
My hardest matchup. But again I manage to screw him in G1 and G3. It's all up to who plays first.
If he plays first, it's extremly hard to win (but possible! I won G1 on the draw here).
Submerge on his acceleration is much more relevant as on his Knights.

ANT combo:
Again anANT player. G1 is easy for me, since I just have counters, wastelands and stifles in my hand, coupled with Delver of Secrets.
G2 i play extraction on his Cabal Ritual after he Infernal Tutored for his third one...the funny thing is: I just boarded one of those, because I thought he plays Doomsday with Ideas Unbound and I can screw him with this ;)

Final:
DDFT
Again, Delver of Secrets seals the deal.

Top cards:
Delver of Secrets - He is THE creature, we want to see all the time.
Submerge - I boarded those against all decks except Combo. In Amsterdam, I definitly play 4 of those!
Mongoose - Delver of Secrets was overwhelming all the time, but Mongoose was "good" as well.

Cards I didn't liked:
Tarmogoyf - I boarded them out against combo...I didn't played against a single aggro deck. I shuffled it away most of the time, when I had the choice between Delver/Mongoose and Goyf.
Dismember - Against Knights and Terravore this just isn't good enough. F//I would helped here much more...but I didn't played against aggro this tournament. I just played this one time against Knight of Reliquary
Ravenous Trap - Extractions seems much better here. Even against dredge, I would play a fourth Extraction instead of the Trap. It was a testslot and I won't play it again.

I think the 12 creature pack with Mongoose is the way to go for Amsterdam.
Maybe cut 1 Mongoose or even Tarmogoyf and add a flex slot like Krosan Grip, Rushing River or another Removal.

With Submerges, Firespout and 6 Removal Main, I don't think we need Lavamancer main.

Cenarius
10-09-2011, 10:01 AM
OK, so after 3/4 (aKa 0.75) year I'm back in business with Dark Tempo Threshold. I made top 4 at a GPT, just barely missing out my 3 buys due to a non-shuffling mistake on my part at game 3.

The top 8 was:

DTT (me)
DTT (teammate and friend)
DTT
Reanimator
High Tide
TES (teammate and friend)
Counterbalance
Zoo (teammate and friend)

Top 4 consisted of 4 members of Team Nijmegen:

DTT
DTT
Zoo
TES

Finals were split, receiving both 3 buys, namely DTT and TES.

So this is how my tournament went.

Match 1.
2-1 UW Stoneblade
Game 1: lose to minor mistake. Had the advantage but lost due to a topdecked Batterskull.
Game 2&3: Combination of Manascrew and Nimble Mongoose/Dark Confidant won me the game.

1-0 (2-1)

Match 2.
2-0 TES against a Dutch Pro-player.
Game 1&2. Goyf + several Fow's, Daze's, Spell Snare, Stifle and Spell Pierce after several cantrips did there job.

2-0 (4-1)

Match 3.
2-0 Merfolk
Game 1: I stay alive after a really good hand of Merfolk. Nimble Mongoose, 3 Ghastly Demise and Tarmogoyf eventually win the game.
Game 2: I win this game due to the fact that I play asian cards and due to the fact that my opponent either doesn't know the exact wording of Ghastly Demise or is afraid to ask me (because that will make you look stupid, ofcourse). We both had 3 lands in play when he viale'd a Commander, he then kept his vial at 2 counters, played a land, played Umezawa's Jitte, Equip Jitte and attack. I then proceed by fetching two times to cast Ghastly Demise. He says it resolves after which I immediately say that I'm happy that he doesn't have a Lord in his hand. He has one and because of that mistake he loses the game.

3-0 (6-1)

Match 4.
ID - DTT
I get paired to a good friend of mine and we decide to draw.

3-0-1 (6-1-1)

Match 5.
1-2 Reanimator.
Game 1: Opponent mulls to 3. I win after several minutes.
Game 2: I brainstorm into no-blue land. My opponent takes advantage of that but having (ofcourse) entomb, reanimate into Jin & Tonic. I loose right after.
Game 3: My opponent has a nuts hand with 3 counterbackup and a fast Jin & Tonic.

3-1-1 (7-3-1)

Match 6.

2-1 BW Stoneblade/Pikula
Game 1: My opponent keeps a fairly weak hand and I punish him for that.
Game 2: He keeps another meh-hand, is under a lot of pressure due to 2 Nimble Mongoose. When he's a 2 life he topdecks Perish, into SFM, into SFM (into SFM). I scoop right after that.
Game 3: With around 20 minutes on the clock we proceed to game three. My opponent eventually gets the upperhand while he is at 2, with me at 16. He has a bunge of lands with a gatekeeper with Sword of Fire/Ice underneath it. My ponder (into brainstorm, ponder & daze) was a hard choice and it took my quite a while to figure out my play. After my turn, my opponent topdecked top, and activated top (with 2 scrubland, leaving only 1 W open). After the top, our judge of the day said that our tempo was fairly slow so we both got a (semi-) warning. Because of the warning, my opponent had a brainfart by blindly attacking me (16 --> 10) playing Dark Confidant (which I ofcourse spell snare) after that he had no outs, since he only had 2 lands in play while I had Daze and Spell Pierce. The pressure of 10 people around our table and the call from the judge probably made me win this game (because after he scooped he showed me a mirran crusader which would have been a GG.).

4-1-1 (9-4-1)

I proceed to the top 8. I then immediately hear that 4 members of our team are in the top 8. Luckily, we all get paired against different opponents.

Top 8.
2-0 Counterbalance against a Dutch Pro-player.
Game 1: he mulls to 4. I basically win fairly easy afterwords.
Game 2: he keeps an hand with Island, Top and 5 other cards. I force the top and immediately he says, you got me, I build more and more momentum while he is manascrewed. I win shortly after.

5-1-1 (11-4-1)

Top 4
1-2 TES by a teammate and friend
Game 1: he mulligans to 5. I win due to 2 Tarmogoyfs, 2 Force, 2 Daze and enough blue cards.
Game 2: I mulligan to 6, he resolves a Xantid Swarm and wins.
Game 3: I have the advantage after playing 3 Wasteland and 2 Stifle, but my clock isn't fast enough. I make a mistake by not fetching after a Brainstorm (which I just forgot about) therefore drawing 4 lands in a row, my opponents get 12 goblin tokens while having only 1 life left. I could have had 1 draw (instead of a land) that could have been the difference. I just made a mistake costing me 2 buys (I will have 1 buy due to my rating).

5-2-1 (12-6-1)

I had an awesome story planned about Tempo Threshold, but because I usually fail with Thesource and posting, I failed this time against losing my whole post. I will post that some other time.

furrylobster
10-09-2011, 11:13 AM
Cenarius or Practical Joke: Do either of you guys mind posting your list for DTT? Thanks!

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
10-09-2011, 12:15 PM
@European Sourcers:
I'm gonna assume Thresh does a hell of a job over there due to the heavy combo meta, right?

GGoober
10-09-2011, 12:29 PM
I would assume Thresh does a good job because the Europeans play good decks :) (Unlike the US where we play boring flavor decks, still mostly good decks though :P)

Nice report, would love to see a list for DTT. Grats!

practical joke
10-09-2011, 12:43 PM
we effectively play a nearly similar deck:

3 sea
3 trop
4 waste
8 fetch

4 goyf
4 mongoose
4 confidant

4 daze
4 spell snare ( won't even think about going back to 3 with the current meta)
2 spell pierce
4 fow
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 stifle
4 ghastly demise

cenarius changes are +1 spell pierce, -1 mongoose.

SB:

4 dreadnoughts
3 extirpate (reanimate was expected)
3 mind harness
1 torpor orb
1 clique
3 disfigure

cenarius SB differences:
-1 clique, -1 torpor orb
+1 mind harness, +1 spell pierce


quite similar lists as you can see.
I do agree with more spell pierce/cliques in a combo-meta.
so somehow have to tweak SB a tiny bit before GP Amsterdam if I'll be playing this.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
10-09-2011, 12:58 PM
I remember you guys mentioning that the dreadnoughts were used for game 2's against fast aggro decks like Goblins and such. Is that still the case?

Wirrsturm
10-09-2011, 01:38 PM
...
4 ghastly demise
...

How has that been working out as your removal suit?
Are you at all worried about something like a crypt or relic neutering both you clocks and your removal?
I play Team America and when NPH was printed the mainboard demises became dismembers but I suspect that the lifeloss might be a bit much for a confidant deck.

It's probably just a meta thing but I kept being dissatisfied with demise since I end up seeing lots of black creatures (tomb/confidant/flavors of black discard creatures) or pro black (crusader).

The shroud on mongoose have proved more important for you than the evasion on delver in DDT?

What do you think of lists running 1-2 Terravores?


Sorry for question flood :). I have a deep affection for DTT but i always feel I lack either the play skill or the deck lacks the raw power for me to be succesful around where I live.

Edit:
Also you don't like discard spells?

Scordata
10-09-2011, 06:40 PM
Wirrsturm - A lot of your questions have been answered a few pages back.

Discard sucks cause you NEED to leave lands untapped 90% of the time. In order to play a tempo deck successfully, you need to leverage an advantage created from undoing your opponents work. For instance, letting them play out their hierarchs, then casting an EOT fire/ice, and a mainphase wasteland is a much better play than thoughseizing them and taking their tarmogoyf. For this reason you don't want to play terravore.

The reason a lot of these spells are considered, in my opinion, is because we see a lot of the more notable SCG grinders include them in their list. The idea behind the inclusion is that, empirically speaking, these spells are much more powerful when used in conjunction with end game bombs, like JTMS. The reason why we don't play such cards, is because we are actively keeping the game from entering the 4 mana zone. Keeping our opponent on 1-3 lands makes casting things like Natural Order almost impossible. They have to play around daze, spell pierce, fow, and all the while our small dudes are chipping at their life total. If you'll notice, the successful decks with 4 cmc bombs have upwards of 22 mana producers. We run 14 colored sources. Try casting terravore in this deck. You'll lose.

Naught is such a strange creature to see. I've used him, and I can't stand 1-2ing myself if they have an STP.

As far as Ghastly is concerned, I run 1 in the main and 2 in the sb. I prefer a removal suite of 2 smother 2 edict, 1 demise, and 2 EE's. The explosives may become spell pierces in time for the GP. If my opponent wants to bring in gy hate against me, then they are effectively diluting their deck with dead cards. If you somehow manage to lose against relic of progenitus, I don't really know what to tell you.

Chikenbok
10-09-2011, 07:25 PM
If you somehow manage to lose against relic of progenitus, I don't really know what to tell you.

qft.

Wirrsturm
10-09-2011, 07:29 PM
@scordate

I seem to remember seeing a bug list doing well that ran 2x terravore at a large European tournament.

I dont understand that argument that your opponent diluting their deck with "dead" cards? Obviously a random piece of grave removal doesn't beat Bug thresh on its own but when your removal and all your creatures require cards in graveyards to do anything (assuming ghastly/goyf/goose) the use of some pieces of grave hate represents a major tempo swing against you. It slows your clock signifantly and makes it easier for opponents to draw out of land screw and the game to move towards the late game which is not what you want.

Aside from that thank you for your insight.

practical joke
10-10-2011, 03:53 AM
@scordate

I seem to remember seeing a bug list doing well that ran 2x terravore at a large European tournament.

I dont understand that argument that your opponent diluting their deck with "dead" cards? Obviously a random piece of grave removal doesn't beat Bug thresh on its own but when your removal and all your creatures require cards in graveyards to do anything (assuming ghastly/goyf/goose) the use of some pieces of grave hate represents a major tempo swing against you. It slows your clock signifantly and makes it easier for opponents to draw out of land screw and the game to move towards the late game which is not what you want.

Aside from that thank you for your insight.

that graveyard is filled up in no-time.
The only creature really affected with gy removal is nimble mongoose. because ditching 7 cards is far harder than ditching the usual suspects ( lands, instants, sorceries,creatures)

Ghastlies have been really good for me so far...only had a confidant resolved once against me,but that simply shouln't happen..also one of the reasons disfigure is in the SB.

1 mana removal vs 2 mana removal can affect your playstyle a lot. I don't want to run edicts, but smother is an optional possibility if you think 4 is not enough. ( like a 3-2 switch)

mongoose's shroud has been way more gamewinning than a delver would've been. Simply being able to chip away at someone's lifetotal while you know he cannot do shit against it.

straca3
10-10-2011, 10:34 AM
I won GPT yesterday, here in Czech Republic. 5 rounds + top 8

Here is the list

// Lands
4 [JGC] Wasteland
2 [JGC] Flooded Strand
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [JGC] Misty Rainforest (wasnt able to get Foothills)

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [M12] Ponder
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [B] Lightning Bolt
2 [NPH] Dismember
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [JGC] Stifle
1 [AP] Fire/Ice

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [NE] Submerge
SB: 1 [NPH] Surgical Extraction (I had only one so sadly I had to play Crypts)
SB: 1 [CMD] Firespout
SB: 2 [MI] Mind Harness
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt



R1: RW Painter (white for Enlightened Tutors and Ethersworn Canonist)
G1: I had mediocre draw, but the mu is really good and one Bolt + 2 Snares was enough to keep his Painter in check and Goyf beatdown killed him.
G2: I had 1st turn Delver and then draw a Krosan Grip, which he really couldnt beat.

1-0

R2: Friend of mine with 73 card mirror, he played Needles instead of Mind Harness.
G1: I mulled to 5, but was able to counter or kill all his threads and we get to a topdeck game with me having only Snare in hand and he had only one card (something like Daze,Snare or Stifle). I drew 2 Goyfs and won the game easily.
G2: He has weird hand with only Trop and Waste, I resolved some creatures and he has Goose, then he played Goyf, I Sumberge it and he Daze it even with my lands untapped , so I cant waste his trop (I had waste in play to play around Daze, so he made that play). I wasted that Waste and the repeated Goyf was little late.

2-0

R3: UR Painter
G1: I was on the draw with pretty bad hand after mull to 6 (Daze,Stifle, Waste, 3 lands). Opp played Ancient Tomb, Painter, LED, Mox Opal 1st turn and named black with Painter. I was little confused and after game asked him about that play, he told me he wanted to kill me as fast as possible, so he dont want me to pitch lands to FoW. Anyway I draw Lightning Bolt, like a pro, killed the Painter and then Dazed his EOT Brainstorm, cause he had only 2 cards in hand. After that he really didnt draw anything and my deck delivered some huuuge Goyfs and the game ended in fast fashion.
G2: I got crushed by 1st turn Spellskite and then Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
G3: I had a lot of counters and had answer for anything in the begining, sadly I wasnt able to draw any of my threats. Opp finally resolved Painter then another one and because we received deckcheck, there were a lot of guys watching us and they wanted him to race me with Painters. Luckily I draw Goyf on like 8 lifes, and some disruption after that in form of Krosan Grip + Dismember + Extraction so I was in a good shape and won the game.

I felt like I should have lost all three games (though I should have mulligan more, my openers werent really strong in all those games) so its probably not the best matchup, certainly worst than the RW version.

R4: ID with my friend playing WB stuff, we were testing the mu like 2 hours day before and it was slightly favorable.

R5: ID with another friend playing Big Zoo, preboard pretty hard matchup, but after sb with Submerges and Mind Harness, it should be better.

Top 8: 73 cards mirror again
G1: It was really weird, I was stuck on one land after I didnt want to Stifle his Waste, cause he has no green source and I had 3 lands (one fetch though) and some Ponder and Brainstorm. Obviously Brainstorms and Ponder didnt found another land so i was stuck. Luckily my opp was stuck as well with no green source after the Stifle. He then made mistake by discarding Spell Snare and after I drew green source he had no answers to Goyf.
G2: He mulled to 5 and I had great hand = easy win

Top 4: friend of mine, probably the best player in the tournament, playing Snapcaster BUG (almost same list as GerryT)
G1: I kept 2 lander with Waste and Fetch, Mongoose,Goyf,FoW,Ponder and Bolt. He was on play and casted Thoughtseize, taking my Goyf. I played Goose, he answered with Hymn hitting Ponder and FoW. On my turn I had hand with Delver of Secrets, Bolt, FoW and Waste, I decided to play Delver and Waste his land, which is probably mistake cause if he had Goyf I cant Force it and ill probably loose.
He obviously has no Goyfs and after I flip Dismember in my 1st upkeep, the game is mine.
G2: Really weird game. He starts with Wasteland, which means he is probably short on lands, I kept awesome one lander with Delver,Spell Snare,Daze,REB, Fow and something. So, I thought he was short on lands so I just slammed the Delver and hoped he will not wasteland he obviously did, but then I draw 2 Wastelands, he has just 2 lands and the Delver is able to race him. He had Life from the Loam in hand but luckily draw only Wasteland :)

In finals I played against my friend from round 4 and he scooped to me, because he probably will not attend the GP.


The deck was really great, for the changes - I would cut the Fire/Ice, play Mongoose or 3rd Dismember instead. The sideboard is sort of mediocre, I didnt really like the REBs they are not great in the metagame at the moment in my opinion, so ill probably cut that. Probably add Submerge, Spell Pierce and Fire/Ice.

Ill probably play that deck in Amsterdam so see u there Stifling and Wasting opponents lands

Scordata
10-10-2011, 06:16 PM
As far as my removal suite is concerned, I've tailored it to what I perceive will be best against a random field. I expect to play against a lot of random decks at the gp, and therefore I've diversified it in the following way:

1 Ghastly demise: too goo not to run maindeck, as sometimes its a strictly better swords to plowshares. On the offhand my opponent manages to resolve a dark confidant, tombstalker, or batterskull token, I've managed to fail as a magic player. 2 More in my sideboard - eat it bant and merfolk.

2 Smother - Only misses tombstalker and sower, and I guess some affinity dudes. At 2 cmc, I'd like to know how that Spellstutter Sprites treating you, buddy?

2 Diabolic edict - Deals with garbage like thrun, mother of runes, emrakul, and other headachy creatues. This is more or less targeted removal, because outside of playing against merfolk or maverick on the draw, no other deck is gonna have more than 1 dude out at a time.

2 Engineered Explosives - These are in the maindeck so I can have outs to the random crap that people think are good nowadays.

In the SB are 3 disfigures, 2 more ghastly demises, and 2 massacres.

So, Team Nijmegen, were the dreadnoughts dead slots?

Dritzz
10-10-2011, 06:40 PM
After testing and the last tournament i've played (top 8) with nimbles,i know that the best option are the lavamancers... with delver and goyf we have the punch,we don't need the nimbles,we need a card that help us to win the tiers of meta,and this is lavamancer.

Lavamancer is better vs: merlfolks,GW,affinity,blade control(he kills ALL theis creatures),bant,dredge...
nimble is better vs: bug(now i don't know,because they have a lot of edict effects with diabolic,snapcaster to diabolic and lilianas) but i'm not sure,zoo and mirror(in this MU,lavamancer can kill all the delvers,goyfs war etc,but the nimble allways wins alone in this MU).

Vs. combo decks like ANT,spiral tide,reanimator,Sneak Attack and others,the two options sucks,because both are too slow and you allways side out.

So lavamancer is better vs all except mirror and zoo(and you can win both with skill,the mana denial and goyfs plus the submerge,so i play the playset).

After that,i have a problem in my side.My current side is:

1 Firespout
1 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Spell Pierce
4 Submerge

I don't like so much the firespout because is a cmc3 spell,but i don't know what could be better...in this version we can't play pyroclasm,and EE is so mana intensive and we need R to the lavamancer... I need a card that helps me to win agro decks like zoo,GW,merlfolks and goblins xD HELP PLEASE!!!!

Scordata
10-10-2011, 06:44 PM
Sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too.

Go UGb, Dark Confidant is exactly the creature this deck needs.

Cenarius
10-10-2011, 07:16 PM
Before reading this, it's good to mention that my list runs 6 duals and 8 fetch. This makes your Ghastly Demise (and Brainstorm and Ponder and the what not) so much better.

Ok, so basically the reason why I play Ghastly Demise over any other removal is because he only costs one mana. Period. That may look like it's not that important, but it sure is. I can name several occasions where having a Ghastly Demise is just way better than Smother/GftT or any other high-costed removal spell. I'm pretty sure I do not have to mention those occasions.
I mean, when you're on the draw and u have a Go for the Throat, or even worse an Engineered Explosives and your opponent starts with Noble Hierarch, don't you just bash your forehead to the table? Or what happens when your opponent starts with a Goblin lackey? Oh dear, did I just mention some examples? Damn!

I'm also pretty sure that you guys can name several situations where Ghastly Demise is bad, I know them all. I know the card is situational by not killing black creatures and I know that Ghastly Demise doesn't destroy creatures with higher tougness than cards in my graveyard. I know the card is weak against graveyard hate. I know it all. However, the fact that he only costs one mana is so important in several matchups, I wouldn't cut him (well actually, if they print a 1cc black-removal spell (lol), then I'll probably cut him).

The reason why I wanted Phyrexian Dreadnoughts in my list was when Goblins was still alive (2009/2010) and probably one of the Deck to Beats. The Dreadnoughts were absolutely hilarious in the sense that they were all flabbergasted. They all just lost their games and matches due to that tech. The Dreadnoughts also won me several matches against Merfolk aswell, back in those days.
But Dreadnoughts were not only good against the tribal matchups. I board some Phyrexian Dreadnoughts (2/3) against every deck that does not play Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile or isn't Tempo. If I'm in game three and I only have 6 minutes on the clock to win the game, I even board Dreadnoughts in. Phyrexian Dreadnought lets you win against random (green creature fatties for 5 mana etc.) decks aswell.
Were they good during the last tournament? Meh. I didn't board them in against Merfolk, because that matchup became better than it was in 2009/2010, because they usually don't play Standstill anymore (therefore getting less nuts-hands). 7 removals and a bunge of counters can easily win against Merfolk (even with an active Vial). I boarded them in my last match against BW Stoneblade/Discard, probably out of semi-rage after my opponent drawed the nuts. And I boarded two copies against combo (2x), never finding them.

About graveyard hate. I think I've had only some occasions where they boarded graveyard hate against me and I think (but I'm not sure) I won all games with them on the table. It's not the Tarmogoyf or Nimble Mongoose that wins the game. Dark Confidant does.

practical joke
10-10-2011, 07:20 PM
As far as my removal suite is concerned, I've tailored it to what I perceive will be best against a random field. I expect to play against a lot of random decks at the gp, and therefore I've diversified it in the following way:

1 Ghastly demise: too goo not to run maindeck, as sometimes its a strictly better swords to plowshares. On the offhand my opponent manages to resolve a dark confidant, tombstalker, or batterskull token, I've managed to fail as a magic player. 2 More in my sideboard - eat it bant and merfolk.

2 Smother - Only misses tombstalker and sower, and I guess some affinity dudes. At 2 cmc, I'd like to know how that Spellstutter Sprites treating you, buddy?

2 Diabolic edict - Deals with garbage like thrun, mother of runes, emrakul, and other headachy creatues. This is more or less targeted removal, because outside of playing against merfolk or maverick on the draw, no other deck is gonna have more than 1 dude out at a time.

Also agree with cenarius.


and.. Where the HECK were you tonight!!!!
Also agree with cenarius with his entire post.


also!!!

WHERE THE HECK WERE YOU TONIGHT!!!!!

2 Engineered Explosives - These are in the maindeck so I can have outs to the random crap that people think are good nowadays.

In the SB are 3 disfigures, 2 more ghastly demises, and 2 massacres.

So, Team Nijmegen, were the dreadnoughts dead slots?

the dreadnoughts are a gamechanging sideboard strategy I didn't need that day, but in a large tournament like the upcoming GP I wouldn't want to play without it even though they don't always are sided in. they're giving you a fast beatdown vs combo (mongoose does not), wins big time vs goblins and merfolk (which you will face at a tournament like that) and can sometimes be brought in against some random decks where the noughts work better as a beatdown instead of mongoose.


@ Drizzt: calling a lavamancer better vs some match-ups is nonsense. lavamancer is a massacre vs merfolk, but all other matches it's equal to mongoose. The problem is when comparing these 2 creatures is that they fullfill a completely different role.
and lavamancer vs dredge? all it does there is kill itself for the bridges....not anything noteworthy there.

I think it's a personal choice for someone to play mongoose or lavamancer + delvers. since the deck's playstyle is slightly affected by that creature choice.

The reason for me to play black instead of red is dark confidant...this card's unfairness is unmatched when you can untap your lands with him in play.

imho you either play lavamancers + delvers or mongoose. both are fine, but the shroud part will win you more games than the lavamancers can do (since you can win a lot of matches without lavamancers as well but is very skill-intensive)

Dritzz
10-10-2011, 07:53 PM
So all of you think that BUG is better than URG??

Demonic_Attorney
10-10-2011, 10:08 PM
I agree with Dritzz that Lavamancer is far superior in this deck than Mongoose in this deck at the moment.

I also concur with Practical Joke that they both play a different role for the deck.

The compelling factor to consider is the role that Lavamancer plays right now as it is much more valuable than that of mongoose which seems substantially subpar for the red variant of threshold to consider using in this deck given the present legacy metagame.

A cursory examination of the issue suggests that whether or not to play either Lavamancer or Mongoose would ostensibly come down to opinion and personal preference; however, a more intricate analysis suggests that the recent success of this deck shows placings in the top 16 in any 100+ legacy event in the last several months are all running Grim Lavamancer and not that of Nibmle Mongoose. Statistically, the decision on which to play is palpable.

I don’t want to sound redundant or repetitive as it has been articulated in the recent pages on this forum just why Lavamancer is better and much more prominent now than Nimble Mongoose is in the present legacy metagame.

Finally, with respect to Dreadnought, it is not necessary or needed in this deck main or sideboard and is a complete waste of already very tight sideboard space. Yes, it is true that it poses as a much faster clock when playing against combo; however, this deck is already very strong against combo. For example, post board we have Force of Will, Daze, Stifle, Red Elemental Blast and Vendilion Clique, etc.

When playing this deck, do you not want to play against combo all day long? I know I do! Sideboard slots need to be reserved for aggro and aggro control decks and in any event, for decks that pose challenging match ups for this deck to beat. In my view, it is not sound strategy to utilize a sideboard to makes strong matchups stronger, rather I prefer to make weak matchups more favourable.

Scordata
10-11-2011, 12:55 AM
I dono if you guys have tested this at all, but in my experience, the UGr delver/lavamancer builds lose to anything with snapcaster mage it in. If they also run unearth, you better hope to draw into DI spell snares. They just grind you out.

Dark Confidant has a much better game against these new brews, simply because the actual card advantage trumps snapcaster's virtual card advantage.

Stifle, obviously, is a boon in these matchups.

Demonic - it should be noted that the majority of top 8's with recent data hails from the misstep era, and we've only got roughly 20 days of tournaments after the bannings to see which cards perform better. I think a lot of the reason why lavamancer is so good right now is because people think that their stoneforge decks are still competitive. This may change if results oriented thinking patterns shift.
This is not to say that lavamancer/delver is a bad combonation - far from it. It is just that mental misstep made UGb threshold unplayable. Stifle and mongoose could no longer "get there."

I'm still on the fence as to which deck is "better," and I don't know if I can say for sure before the gp - what I can tell you guys is that mana denial is back, with a vengeance.

Demonic_Attorney
10-11-2011, 01:40 AM
I think a lot of the reason why lavamancer is so good right now is because people think that their stoneforge decks are still competitive. This may change if results oriented thinking patterns shift.
This is not to say that lavamancer/delver is a bad combonation - far from it. It is just that mental misstep made UGb threshold unplayable. Stifle and mongoose could no longer "get there."

This weekend at STG Nashville 2 of the top 4 decks (including the winner) were playing Stoneforge. So I guess "their thinking" seems correct, which in turn means Lavamancer will continue to get the nod over Mongoose in this deck (at least as far as the RUG version is concerned).

It should also be noted, that in a recent 293 player tourney (post Mental Misstep) two (2) Canadian Threshold decks made the top 8. In that foregoing large scale legacy tourney, both the top 8 threshold decks DID NOT play Nimble Mongoose; one played Lavamancer.

Once again, a full play set of Stoneforge Mystic was playing in the finals of that post Mental Misstep large scale legacy tourney making the choice to play Lavamancer over Mongoose in the RUG version palpable.

http://magic-ville.com/fr/decks/decklists?event=2075&format=LE

http://magic-ville.com/fr/decks/decklists?event=2074&format=LE

spartan117
10-11-2011, 02:37 AM
This weekend at STG Nashville 2 of the top 4 decks (including the winner) were playing Stoneforge. So I guess "their thinking" seems correct, which in turn means Lavamancer will continue to get the nod over Mongoose in this deck (at least as far as the RUG version is concerned).

It should also be noted, that in a recent 293 player tourney (post Mental Misstep) two (2) Canadian Threshold decks made the top 8. In that foregoing large scale legacy tourney, both the top 8 threshold decks DID NOT play Nimble Mongoose; one played Lavamancer.

Once again, a full play set of Stoneforge Mystic was playing in the finals of that post Mental Misstep large scale legacy tourney making the choice to play Lavamancer over Mongoose in the RUG version palpable.

http://magic-ville.com/fr/decks/decklists?event=2075&format=LE

http://magic-ville.com/fr/decks/decklists?event=2074&format=LE

I'd like to remind you that in an even bigger european tournament (~400 people) 2 ugr canadian threshold placed right into the top8 (me 6th and fabian moyschewitz 8th) and we were both playing with nimble mongoose over lavamancer (I was also playing delver).

EDIT: You can find the top8 decklists at the following link:

http://www.tipo1.it/forum/viewtopic.php?p=405037#405037

Cenarius
10-11-2011, 08:29 AM
It is just that mental misstep made UGb threshold unplayable. Stifle and mongoose could no longer "get there."

I'm still on the fence as to which deck is "better," and I don't know if I can say for sure before the gp - what I can tell you guys is that mana denial is back, with a vengeance.

I'm not sure why all you guys say stuff like that. Tempo Threshold, aka Dark Tempo Threshold, was better than it ever was and ever will be in the near future because of Mental Misstep. Mental Misstep did everything for the deck:

(in order of importance)
Counter Sensei's Divining Top
Counter Aether Vial
Counter Wild Nacatl
Counter Brainstorm(/Ponder when they're low on lands aswell)
Counter Swords to Plowshares on your Dark Confidant

I can name several other reasons why Mental Misstep was ZOMFGROFLCOPTERBONKERS for Dark Tempo Threshold. I can even back them with results by a friend and teammate of mine. The only reason why people did not want to play Tempo Threshold in those days is just because everyone (or the one with the loudest mouth) said that it would lose its strenght. I'm pretty sure they haven't tested it themselves, primarely because Dark Tempo Threshold is pretty much unknown to a lot of players (and still is). I mean a deck that can protect its Dark Confidant by 12 ways (FOW, DAZE, MM), while keeping pressure on your opponent, is just sick (IMO).

Tempo Threshold will never be as strong as it was in the Mental Misstep-era. Period.

About red and black splash.

I think both splashes are strong, however I, personally, prefer the black splash for Dark Confidant, 'real' removal and better graveyard hate against Reanimator and Dredge.

Demonic_Attorney
10-11-2011, 01:07 PM
What do you mean "real removal"? Canadian Thresh can play both Dismember (in addition to bolt, lavamancer and jace for reanimator) and Sugical Extraction for Dredge. So, with respect, the graveyard hate and removal argument is quite weak and for the most part moot. Bob would be the only reason to splash black; however, as you alluded to already, almost every deck if not every top deck in the format has multiple ways to negate him.

As you mentioned, without Mental Misstep the protection Bob needs has suffered greatly. That is why post Mental Misstep I think RUG Thresh is more consistent and has better tempo then BUG Threshold. STP, path, bolt, chain lightning, lightning helix, lavamancer, smother, go for the throat, dismember, counters, etc. and the list goes on and on all answer Bob fast, easy and efficiently. If the only reason for splashing black never stays on the table, in my view, it is really quite hard playing black over red right now in Thresh especially in this post MM era compounded by the present legacy metagame.

KevinTrudeau
10-11-2011, 01:12 PM
A straight UB Tempo (minus the Thresh now I suppose) list I thought up and wanted to share with y'all:

20 Land - 4 Underground Sea, 4 Polluted Delta, 4 Misty Rainforest, 4 Verdant Catacombs, 4 Wasteland
12 Creatures- 4 Delver of Secrets, 4 Dark Confidant, 4 Snapcaster Mage
28 Noncreature spells- 4 Force of Will, 4 Daze, 4 Stifle, 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 2 Dismember, 2 Ghastly Demise, 2 Smother, 2 Spell Snare

SB: 4 Surgical Extraction, 3 Thoughtseize, 3 Spell Pierce, 3 Submerge, 2 Darkblast

It seems like it would be pretty weak to Merfolk and probably green creature based decks, but it has some potential. Ponder is the flex slot in the deck and could be replaced by more countermagic, Unearth, more removal, Tombstalker, etc.

Scordata
10-11-2011, 01:37 PM
Kevin, I tried it and its really inconsistent. If you want to go that route, you can shave a lot of spells to be 3 ofs because of snapcaster.

Demonic - its hard to argue with that logic. Id like to take a look at a decklist recommendation from you, to garner a wholistic approach with reguards to consistency, and threat managment in a rug package. Care to post a list?

Also I'm really happy that this thread is like the old source: quality conversation!

Zilla
10-11-2011, 02:43 PM
A straight UB Tempo (minus the Thresh now I suppose) list I thought up and wanted to share with y'all:

20 Land - 4 Underground Sea, 4 Polluted Delta, 4 Misty Rainforest, 4 Verdant Catacombs, 4 Wasteland
12 Creatures- 4 Delver of Secrets, 4 Dark Confidant, 4 Snapcaster Mage
28 Noncreature spells- 4 Force of Will, 4 Daze, 4 Stifle, 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 2 Dismember, 2 Ghastly Demise, 2 Smother, 2 Spell Snare

SB: 4 Surgical Extraction, 3 Thoughtseize, 3 Spell Pierce, 3 Submerge, 2 Darkblast

It seems like it would be pretty weak to Merfolk and probably green creature based decks, but it has some potential. Ponder is the flex slot in the deck and could be replaced by more countermagic, Unearth, more removal, Tombstalker, etc.
What's the point of going straight UB if you're not getting a more resilient manabase out of the deal? Wouldn't it make more sense to drop 1 or 2 fetches for a basic Island and a maybe a basic Swamp? If not, it seems like you might as well just run green for Goyf and/or Goose.

I haven't tested it out so I can't say for sure, but it just seems like dropping green leaves you much more vulnerable to aggro, without a whole lot of gain.

KevinTrudeau
10-11-2011, 03:11 PM
I had been playing around with basics, but I'd often open Swamp+Wasteland+blue spell hands. You're right in that an Island should probably be in there, but I don't think a Swamp should necessarily.

The idea I had in mind was that Snapcaster could potentially make up for the loss of Tarmogoyf against aggro by virtually doubling up on the removal in the deck. It is probably a lot worse than established Tempo Thresh variants, I just wanted to throw that idea out there and see if anyone saw something worth building upon.

miro
10-11-2011, 03:33 PM
Played UGR Goobafish list on Sunday.
+1 Island -1 Tropical,-1 Spell Snare, -1 Preodrain, + 2 Vendilion
Won all my matches droping only one game to BUG Snapcaster.
Didn't played against any GreenFatty.deck - only MU that I'm worry about (Goblins are absent in our meta).

Deck is STRONG.

Would you guys be so kind and post sidebord plans/game scenarios vs. GW/Maverick/Bant ?

loop
10-11-2011, 05:13 PM
How were the Cliques?
I've also been testing a similar list, shaving off the same slots you did for 2 Spell Pierce MD which have been quite good, diversifying the counter package a bit.
I also like the MD grims, but I'm a bit worried about the threat count.
I've been pondering cutting them for Goose, but maybe Cliques could do the trick?

Charlatan
10-11-2011, 05:43 PM
How were the Cliques?
I've also been testing a similar list, shaving off the same slots you did for 2 Spell Pierce MD which have been quite good, diversifying the counter package a bit.
I also like the MD grims, but I'm a bit worried about the threat count.
I've been pondering cutting them for Goose, but maybe Cliques could do the trick?

I've tested Cliques and I can say that they are too mana intesive for Canadian and not a good card to be in the openning hand...

Of course that when you hit a good clique, her little pussy shines and you win the game. But is almost a dead card...

Zilla
10-11-2011, 05:51 PM
Shiny pussies aside, I agree Clique is just too mana intensive for the deck. I prefer the 4x Goyf/Goose/Delver package myself. I ran Lavamancer over Goose for awhile, but the dissynergy between it and Goyf just felt too clunky in a lot of games for my taste. I shore up the aggro matchup with 3x Firespout in the side and it's been treating me pretty well.

Sigar
10-12-2011, 07:31 AM
I'd like to remind you that in an even bigger european tournament (~400 people) 2 ugr canadian threshold placed right into the top8 (me 6th and fabian moyschewitz 8th) and we were both playing with nimble mongoose over lavamancer (I was also playing delver).

EDIT: You can find the top8 decklists at the following link:

http://www.tipo1.it/forum/viewtopic.php?p=405037#405037

In the deck breakdown I see 12 NLU. I know it means Next Level Blue, but what exactly is in that deck?

Thanks!

furrylobster
10-12-2011, 03:11 PM
@Cenarius:

Have you or practical joke tried messing around with 1-2x Reanimate in the main? I think it might be a solid choice to rebuy a downed Goyf or Confidant for 2life or even potentially steal a monster from Reanimator. I could be way off base here, since I'm just starting to try out DTT but was hoping to hear your thoughts.

practical joke
10-12-2011, 03:37 PM
@Cenarius:

Have you or practical joke tried messing around with 1-2x Reanimate in the main? I think it might be a solid choice to rebuy a downed Goyf or Confidant for 2life or even potentially steal a monster from Reanimator. I could be way off base here, since I'm just starting to try out DTT but was hoping to hear your thoughts.

the problem with a reanimate main is that it requires a thing in the gy...most of the times it's stp-ed which is not worth a risk of putting cards like reanimate for it in the main.
It's tempting for the reanimate match-up, but since the SB is kinda tight you rather have more usefull SB cards that work against a larger variation of decks.

keys
10-12-2011, 04:53 PM
It's tempting for the reanimate match-up, but since the SB is kinda tight you rather have more usefull SB cards that work against a larger variation of decks.

If it was instant, it would MAYBE be playable. As sorcery, it's not very good at blowing out Reanimator players.

bob2008
10-13-2011, 06:05 AM
A teammate and I are working on a straight UR tempo list . Testing showed that the deck sometimes could not build up enough pressure - thats the point where the MD Dreadnoughts came into the picture...

The current list looks like this:
4 Delver
4 Dreadnought
3 Snapcaster
1 Clique
3 Lavamanver

1 Trickbind
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force
3 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

2 Island
4 Volcanic
4 Waste
8 Fetch


Last weekend we played a similar list at a 80 men tourney and finished 5:2 both.
The mana base is nearly bulletproof and the Dreadnought sometimes provides very easy wins..
The additional trickbind enables you to use your stifles aggressively while still laying down the Dreadnought when needed.
The deck is OK gainst combo, fish and other tempo oriented decks. (I expect a lot of these decks in Amsterdam) But the deck has some difficulties with fast Zoo and Maverick though.

I would like to hear some feedback and criticism from you guys about this approach.

What do you think - is giving up "bombs" like Dark Confidant and Goyf is worth the improved mana base?
What sideboard cards would you suggest to improved the difficult MU against Zoo and Midrange?

Pippin
10-13-2011, 06:37 AM
@bob2008

Nice to see someone going through with the UR idea that was posted few pages back - if it ends up well I think that deck could easily be worth its own topic.

I need to ask though - how was Snapcaster Mage in practice? That guy is at least 3 mana to do something useful, and even then it's not really spectacular to cast a bolt or brainstorm for 3 mana. That 3 mana in a Tempo deck of 18 lands is alot...
He also lacks evasion so it's not like he'll be able to push damage through. Cliques, or some instant/sorcery would be far more useful in his place IMO.

Also, what about putting 1 basic mountain in the maindeck. Weren't there situations where you had lavamancer in play, only for opponents to cut you off Volcanics with their Wastelands/Vindicates ?

Aren't 15 creatures a bit on the heavy side?

@everyone else - what about trying out Predict again in the Thresh variants? It's good with Delvers, and coupled with brainstorm + ponder it could be fully used vast majority of the time.

losada
10-13-2011, 07:03 AM
The most common cards included against Zoo:

Submerge
Mind Harness
Engineered Explosives (you'll kill your Dreadnoughts, not an option...)

I think your difficulties with fast Zoo and Maverick are due to:

1. With the UGR version, you can play Tarmogoyf, and if a zoo player kill it, it's a 1 by 1 card. If they kill your Dreadnought, you have lost two cards (Dreadnought and stifle). In addition, Dreadnought and Qasali are not very good friends,xD.

2. The Dark Tempo has more effective removal against Zoo (Go for the throath and Gastly demise).

bob2008
10-13-2011, 08:21 AM
Thanks a lot for the feedback.
Snapcaster Mage was ok, even though it sometimes feels a bit slow. During the early game he was often pitched to fow. (and so was clique)
But every time i drew him during the mid (or late) game he was very cool. Snapcaster gives me the possibility to use my early spells very agressive . Being able to recycle spells when the game goes longer felt very good and provided some kind of cardadvantage, which is otherwise completely missing in this deck...
And even if it is not that "spectacular"- I think that the possibility to recast a bolt or something gives the deck a lot of flexibility. F.x. I had a situation where a flashed Snapcaster plus bolt killed a goyf and thereby won me the game.
We are currently playing two additional Clique in the board so that we can board out the nought ( if the opponent has seen it in game one) and blank their Grips and Grudges.

About the basic mountain - I am still not sure about it , 19 (1 Mountain) lands often felt too much and i do not want to reduce the amount of the U sources... My teammate runs the 19 land list with % 1 ponder . But i think that with 3 ponder you should easily find enough red sources... Still testing...

The creature count seems very high for a tempo deck, i completely agree with you about that. (Having a 4th spell snare is very tempting...) But the Dreadnought can sometimes be a dead card and only the delver sometimes just is not enough. First the mancers were Sideboard but after the tourney they went MB because they were brought in (nearly) every match. Together with delver they provided an good clock.

About the Zoo and Maverick MU : Yes, submerge is a great tempo card and Mind Harness is ordered... ;-) Thanks! I will do some testing today against the two worst Matchups...

Dark Ritual
10-13-2011, 12:24 PM
The spell snare count should be 4. I suggest cutting the vendilion clique for it; 18 lands + a 3 drop doesn't play nicely. And besides that, where is the basic mountain again? In a 2 color version you should most definitely have basics of both colors if only as a 1 of. Then you can always activate lavamancer with a basic mountain in play sans them ghost quartering it if they're lands.

The reason for 4 spell snare is to help the zoo MU and to counter their qasali pridemage on the draw so next turn you go dreadnought and a protected dreadnought wins generally speaking unless they have some ridiculous creature removal heavy hand.

Also have you tested dismember in the UR list? Dismember is quite handy against everything.

spartan117
10-13-2011, 04:03 PM
In the deck breakdown I see 12 NLU. I know it means Next Level Blue, but what exactly is in that deck?

Thanks!


I asked to the one who made the deck breakdown and he told me that he classified as NLU all 4c counterbalance control decks with jace as the main win condition as long as tarmogoyf/vendilion clique. I still don't know why he chose the name NLU to group them, to me NLU is MonoU control with energy field, shackles and BtB... or am I missing something?

bob2008
10-13-2011, 04:13 PM
Dismember was MB in the "old" list but since the nought came into the MB there just is not enough space for them. But yes - Dismember was great. A very good tempo card IMO. I play two copies in the side.
We just had a testing session against some more or less "difficult" Matchups (Zoo, Bant and GW). Results were quite promising. The inclusion of Lavamancer improves these MU a lot. The real troublemakers are Goyf and Knight so i think there should be at least two SB slots to handle these guys. The questions is whether it should be Dismember, Submerge or Mind Harness. I have not tested Submerge and Harness yet. Each of these cards has its downsides though...

You are right about the fourth snare. I will replace a Clique with it and see how it works...

Talking about spell snare - now that MM is out of the picture Spell snare is (again) a very popular card. That is very good for this deck as there are not that many targets the opponent can use his snare against.

dsck
10-13-2011, 04:22 PM
to me NLU is MonoU control with energy field, shackles and BtB... or am I missing something?

Thats MUC.

BackDr0p
10-13-2011, 09:40 PM
After some testing, I have concluded that Snapcaster Mage is a must for the deck. I would even go so far as saying that is should replace Nimble Mongoose and/or Grim Lavamancer maindeck. The deck sometimes runs out of resources as the game progresses and Snapcaster allows you keep on going. He gets more powerful as games get longer, being able to flash back Lightning Bolt for those last points of damage or brainstorm for gas.

I'm playing the same list I posted a page back with the following modifications:

-1 preordain
-3 Grim Lavamancer

+4 Snapcaster Mage

SB:

3x Pyroblast
3x Submerge
3x Faerie Macabre
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Krosan Grip
2x Spell Pierce

Edit: Everyone should be playing 4x Spell Snare. Running less than four is counter intuitive since the format will rotate around key :2: cmc spells.

wcm8
10-14-2011, 12:14 AM
I disagree completely. Snapcaster sucks in this deck. I have been having lots of success though with 4 Goyf, 4 Nimble Mongoose, 4 Delver of Secrets. Having an early threat is awesome. A 2/1 flashing back a cantrip or removal is pretty unimpressive in this deck, not to mention the difficulty in achieving three lands against any deck running Stifle and/or Wastelands of their own.

Pippin
10-14-2011, 01:20 AM
Snapcaster Mage in a deck with 18 lands is just a horrible idea, especially when someone runs 4 for of them. Something as simple as Vendilion Clique is infinite times better than a 3 mana lightning bolt/brainstorm.
Also, the idea that Snapcaster Mage produces gas is not very productive when one takes the gas out of the deck (aka Lavamancer) so that they could fit...

Snapcaster Mage is overyhped and shouldn't have a place in this deck. He lacks the most important thing - either having a big body that can actually trade with something or evasion. He also makes opponent's dazes/wastelands/stifles/snares so much better. His ability is cute, but not good enough - his place is in something like UW mystic where he can actually pick up a sword and do something beside flashing back Swords to Plowshares.

Cenarius
10-14-2011, 09:50 AM
If you really think that the deck runs out of gas (which is does), you should try running Dark Confidant. Dark Confidant does it all for you.

BlackStarDeceiver
10-16-2011, 01:03 PM
Went 5-0-1 today with the new usual Delver/Grim setup.

2-0 against UW Stoneblade
2-1 against Goblins (he got me with maindeck Bolt -.-)
2-0 against UWb Thopters
2-0 against Belcher
2-0 against Dredge
ID against burn, we played for fun and i won 2-0 so its a virtual 6-0 today.

The deck was awesome, my board was:

3 Surgical Extraction
1 Ravenous Trap
3 Submerge
3 Spellpierce
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Engineered Explosives

I am the brainwasher
10-17-2011, 11:45 AM
@BSD:

Was the U/W Stoneforge deck that new thing with the Snapcasters? I'm asking cause I saw the Canadian lists without Mongeese getting lots of trouble with the opponent having plenty of Spotremoval (postboard it gets even fuglier), especially because its hard to cut a 2-mana based deck off a single color.
I would apprecieate a few further information (I assume Extraction on StP or something).

Btw, how did the extraction worked out against Dredge? AFAIK you need to draw multiples to blow them out and I didnt want to be that draw-dependent with the deck so I managed to get around them till now. The thing is, is the card just that good because you are able to remove opposong bridges with Mancer and targetting Ichorid is powerful enough with "just" drawing a single copy.
I am kinda curious if the card could replace T-Crypt in traditional builds too and if its really better against Reanimator (they could also Entomb in response to their Exhume again after the resolution of Extraction/Faerie Macabre).
I see the flexibilty of the card and like its effect (especially against Intuition) but I am not quite sure if it is that good of a card.
Greetings, Iatb

Pippin
10-19-2011, 09:08 AM
Current stats for October:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/metagame.php?format=Legacy

We're in 3rd place atm when looking at top 8 finishes. Seems like Delver (and Snapcaster Mage in some instances) + banning of Mental Misstep was enough to push us into deck to beat status.


Onto theory:

best way to deal with rock/knight of the reliquary decks with sideboard slots? Submerge can be quite ineffective if not backed up by some extreme tempo - they'll just discard us completely, or use all fetches beforehand and then just play KOTR and ride it to victory. Spell Pierce is ok against discard/vindicate effects but nothing spectacular.

Divert - possible solution to Hymn(discard)/removal effects ?
Gilded Drake - possible solution to KOTR ? - can't be dealt same way as for example Mind Harness

Anyone with a bit more experience concerning those cards in UGR build?

chinEsE girl
10-19-2011, 10:52 AM
I personally play NLT, which isn't quite tempo thresh, but my deck still has to answer the KotR problem. For me, gilded drake has easily been the best answer. They need either removal in hand or another KotR to resolve, otherwise they just die to their own knight in pretty short order. Submerge is kind of ok, but without a good amount of pressure or them being bad and shuffling when they don't absolutely need to, the card isn't that great.

BlueNevus
10-19-2011, 10:54 AM
Onto theory:

best way to deal with rock/knight of the reliquary decks with sideboard slots? Submerge can be quite ineffective if not backed up by some extreme tempo - they'll just discard us completely, or use all fetches beforehand and then just play KOTR and ride it to victory. Spell Pierce is ok against discard/vindicate effects but nothing spectacular.

Divert - possible solution to Hymn(discard)/removal effects ?
Gilded Drake - possible solution to KOTR ? - can't be dealt same way as for example Mind Harness

Anyone with a bit more experience concerning those cards in UGR build?



I run 2xGilded Drake, 2xSubmerge and 0xMind Harness. Using Gilded Drake to steal Jin-Gitaxias or Emrakul is incredible in addition to the more common KOTR/Goyf theft. You can usually resolve it post-board with your REBs and other counter backup. The upkeep on Mind Harness is a serious drawback, especially intypical builds without basic lands.

Cenarius
10-19-2011, 11:47 AM
Current stats for October:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/metagame.php?format=Legacy

We're in 3rd place atm when looking at top 8 finishes. Seems like Delver (and Snapcaster Mage in some instances) + banning of Mental Misstep was enough to push us into deck to beat status.

Don't attach yourself too much to these kind figures. They're more incomplete than complete, to be honest.
Your sentence about the banning of mental misstep is totally wrong aswell, but you can read my comment about that, about 2/3 pages ago.

To me: Mind Harness > Submerge > Gilded Drake.

Pippin
10-19-2011, 12:40 PM
Your sentence about the banning of mental misstep is totally wrong aswell, but you can read my comment about that, about 2/3 pages ago.

I don't agree with you. While Mental Misstep helped Thresh variants it actually helped more other decks. Best example here is UW mystic and it's variants. Before MM thresh decks could just play mongoose and protect it from being countered by FoW - usually by daze if played first turn or by own FoW - and could ride it all the way. With MM that theory changed completely and opponents not only got another solution to Nimble Mongoose, but also a way to protect their own Mystic into Batterskull. Same thing goes to MM protecting from Stifle effects.
Yeah sure, one can say that thresh had it's own Mental Misstep's to fight back - but the reality was that before NPH one would have needed only 1 card to do something, for example stifle or spell snare. During the MM time, that 1 card became 2 cards in hand (MM + 1cc card that does something) to make an effect. 1 > 2 in this sense.
The format was slow and full of mystic/kotr decks and random misstep would usually give them enough time to take over the game.

Nowadays everything is changed and format is faster a few turns. This means more fetches, and more interactions in first turns of game. Scenarios where tempo decks with stifles/free spells shine.

Sure, mental misstep was awesome against tribal decks such as goblins/elves to stop their vials/mana dorks - but the reality is that UGR thresh variant shouldn't be concerned against those since they are positive matchups to start with.


Anyway, onto sideboard subject. You say Mind Harness? Mind explaining why in UGR variant?
This gives Rock great number of outs. Being able to pay mana for Harness is not that easy to do, due to their Wastelands/Vindicates targeting our lands and their discard taking care of our stifle/counterspells. Honorable mention goes to Qasali Pridemage, Vindicates, Engineered Explosives (Deeds) all being able to easily destroy it. There's also potential REB, since it's not that impossible to splash red in Rock variants due to Mox Diamonds/fetches.

Demonic_Attorney
10-20-2011, 12:35 AM
Your sentence about the banning of mental misstep is totally wrong aswell, but you can read my comment about that, about 2/3 pages ago.


I don't agree with you. While Mental Misstep helped Thresh variants it actually helped more other decks. Best example here is UW mystic and it's variants. Before MM thresh decks could just play mongoose and protect it from being countered by FoW - usually by daze if played first turn or by own FoW - and could ride it all the way. With MM that theory changed completely and opponents not only got another solution to Nimble Mongoose, but also a way to protect their own Mystic into Batterskull. Same thing goes to MM protecting from Stifle effects.

Yeah sure, one can say that thresh had it's own Mental Misstep's to fight back - but the reality was that before NPH one would have needed only 1 card to do something, for example stifle or spell snare. During the MM time, that 1 card became 2 cards in hand (MM + 1cc card that does something) to make an effect. 1 > 2 in this sense.

The format was slow and full of mystic/kotr decks and random misstep would usually give them enough time to take over the game.

Nowadays everything is changed and format is faster a few turns. This means more fetches, and more interactions in first turns of game. Scenarios where tempo decks with stifles/free spells shine.
Sure, mental misstep was awesome against tribal decks such as goblins/elves to stop their vials/mana dorks - but the reality is that UGR thresh variant shouldn't be concerned against those since they are positive matchups to start with.

I concur with the latter as outlined by Pippin above.

The former, as advanced by Cenarius is factually incorrect. With the greatest of respect, Cenarius's bald and conclusory assertion is statistically proven to be erroneous. Logically, one might very well think this deck would shine much brighter with Mental Misstep; however, the legacy metagame and the synergy of the format has conspicuously yielded a much different result.

This deck was barely even considered a tier 2 deck in the Mental Misstep era and never even topped 16 at a SCG, Gen Con or Grand Prix Legacy event during this time span. Now, almost immediately after the banning, thresh is all over making the top 8 in large scale legacy events. Indeed, these numbers do not lie and are manifestly compelling in the result.

Scordata
10-20-2011, 02:34 PM
Results oriented thinking, Demonic, but it's all we've got, so I tend to agree here.

In any event, I think the best creature package for the more traditional thresh builds should be:
4 tarmogoyf
4 delver
3 mongoose

I keep 2-3 lavamancers in the board for the matchups where it helps, usually bant, mavrick, and tribal decks.
The shroud ability of mongoose is just too good against any deck playing stoneforge and her croonies to pass up.
Plus, seeing players fow your goose pracically means you are going to win.

So far the hardest matchup is sfm plus tiago plus spell snare. These creatures force you to have a spell snare in hand, because allowing them to resolve will net your opponent value. This is similar to mulliganing. Even if you stifle their effect, they now have a blocker, which may buy them the turn they need to land a jace.

Price of progress from the sideboard helps here.

straca3
10-21-2011, 03:49 PM
Results oriented thinking, Demonic, but it's all we've got, so I tend to agree here.

In any event, I think the best creature package for the more traditional thresh builds should be:
4 tarmogoyf
4 delver
3 mongoose

I keep 2-3 lavamancers in the board for the matchups where it helps, usually bant, mavrick, and tribal decks.
The shroud ability of mongoose is just too good against any deck playing stoneforge and her croonies to pass up.
Plus, seeing players fow your goose pracically means you are going to win.

So far the hardest matchup is sfm plus tiago plus spell snare. These creatures force you to have a spell snare in hand, because allowing them to resolve will net your opponent value. This is similar to mulliganing. Even if you stifle their effect, they now have a blocker, which may buy them the turn they need to land a jace.

Price of progress from the sideboard helps here.




Have you tested that matchup? I have record something like 20-5 vs it, the matchup seems really great, if u resolve Mongose, you basicaly cant loose.

Vandalize
10-22-2011, 12:55 PM
Results oriented thinking, Demonic, but it's all we've got, so I tend to agree here.

In any event, I think the best creature package for the more traditional thresh builds should be:
4 tarmogoyf
4 delver
3 mongoose

I keep 2-3 lavamancers in the board for the matchups where it helps, usually bant, mavrick, and tribal decks.
The shroud ability of mongoose is just too good against any deck playing stoneforge and her croonies to pass up.
Plus, seeing players fow your goose pracically means you are going to win.

So far the hardest matchup is sfm plus tiago plus spell snare. These creatures force you to have a spell snare in hand, because allowing them to resolve will net your opponent value. This is similar to mulliganing. Even if you stifle their effect, they now have a blocker, which may buy them the turn they need to land a jace.

Price of progress from the sideboard helps here.

SFM was never a problem for me. If I can't counter/stifle him, I can just bolt/dismember him.

And resolving a Moongoose is pretty much all you need.

I play the following list with pretty much success:

Lands [18]
4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest

Creatures [12]
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets

Spells [30]
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
2 Dismember

Sideboard [15]
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Submerge
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge

I play really aggressive with Stifles and Wastelands, and try to drop Delver or Mongoose as fast as possible. If game reaches lategame, or I run out of gas, it's pretty hard to recover (even with 8 cantrips).

Pretty hard to lose to Progenitus.dec and Stoneforge.dec with this configuration. Mongoose always get there.

BackDr0p
10-24-2011, 01:01 AM
Finished 7th in a 40-man tourney (5 rounds of swiss + T8) over the weekend playing Canadian Threshold. Going 4-0-1 in swiss. Losing only to the 65-70 card mirror in the quarter finals. My list was the following:

4x Delver of Secrets
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Grim Lavamancer
1x Vendilion Clique

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Force of Will
4x Spell Snare
4x Daze
4x Stifle
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Dismember

4x Wasteland
4x Volcanic Island
3x Tropical island
1x Island
3x Scalding Tarn
3x Misty Rainforest

SB:

3x Pyroblast
3x Spell Pierce
3x Submerge
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Faerie Macabre

I opted to play Lavamancers instead of Mongeese, because of the amount of SFM, Snapcaster and Merfolk decks I scouted.


Round 1: Louis playing w/ UGW Bant Aggro + SFM

G1: He wins the die roll. I keep him off color with Stifle and Wasteland. A flipped Delver and V. Clique get in for some damage. Fortunately for him, he finds and resolves a Rhox War Monk. The next turn he equips it with a Sword of Fire and Ice. I can't answer, nor race him. So we are off to G2

G2: Spell Snare was awesome this game, keeping his critters off the table. I start off with double Delver beats, soon followed by a Goyf. The drop his life total to 9. His Brainstorms find him triple Swords. He drops a Goyf and Qasali Primage. In the next few turns they bring me down to 4 life. EOT, I flash in V. Clique targeting myself. I flush a useless card, only to draw an Island instead. On my turn I rip a Brainstorm. Cast it with 3 cards in hand. I find Bolt, Ponder, Wasteland. I put back Island, Wasteland. Ponder. Nothing. I shuffle. He cuts. Tap the top of my deck. Lighnting Bolt. I proceed to swing for 3 with Clique and burn him FTW!

G3: He leads with Trop, Noble Heirarch. I play Volcanic Island, Bolt. He play a Tundra and taps it to main phase Brainstorm. Taps his Trop to play another Noble Heirarch. On my turn I Submerge his Noble Heirach. He Forces, I Daze. I then Waste his Trop. For the next 4 turns, he fails to find another land. Delver and Goyf reduce his life to zero unopposed.

1-0-0

Round 2: KYT (Kar Yung Tom) playing U/W Blade Control feat. Spellstutter Sprite

For some reason I didn't take many notes for these games. The matchups were grossly in my favor. Maindeck Lavamancers, Snares and Pyroblasts + Grudges from the board make this an easy win.

G1: Lavamancer + Goyf beats. 2x Force countering removal. Bolt + Lavamancer activation take care of a resolved Jace.

G2: Lavamancer, 3x Force and Delver. Win.

2-0-0

Round 3: Rory playing U/W Blade Control feat. Snapcaster

G1: Super tight game starts with my opponent mulliganing to 5. He manages to hang on, by finding answers to my threats and me having snare for all Snapcasters and SFM, except one (which finds Batterskull). He stands at 4 life his active SFM is the only thing stopping my 4/5 Goyf from bringing me victory. I swing he activates SFM. I have stifle for the trigger. On to G2. Personally, in his situation I would have blocked with the SFM and then activated the ability. I least it would have bought him a few more turns.

G2: I end up drawing all 3 of my pyroblasts which allow me to protect my Lavamancer and Delver from removal. Playing a deck with Stifles has its advantages especially since they continue to play around it post-board (I side them out most MU's).

3-0-0

Round 4: Charles playing UGW CounterTop feat. SFM

G1: I mull into oblivion finding no lands. He locks me out with CB + Top on T2.

G2: He mulls to 5. I drop an early Delver. Force his Top. Resolve a Lavamancer that prevent his SFM's (which I intentionally allow to resolve, saving my snares for Counterbalance and Goyf) from becoming active. Finish him off with Burn.

G3: I open a hand with 2x Wasteland. They allow me to effectively keep him off double Blue and Green mana. My Goyf brings his life total to 8. He Forces through a SFM into play, fetching Jitte. He obviously has Batterskull in hand. I'm holding a bolt and Dismember, but choose not use either. I'd rather force him to commit to I plan I know, than allow him to do something unpredictable. I swing with the Lurgoyf, no blocks. He untaps and passes the turn. Eot, I bolt his SFM. He responds by putting Batterskull into play. On my turn I Dismember the germ and swing for the win.

4-0-0

Round 5: Pascal Le Noire playing G/B Loam Control (Raven's Crime, Deeds, Maelstrom Pulse, Edict, innocent blood, Worm Harvest, Tombstalker)

Intentional Draw

We did however play for fun. He obviously had the inevitability with so much removal maindeck. He only way to win was to protect a threat and ride it to victory. Saving stifles for Deed activations. Out tempo-ing this kind of deck is quite frankly impossible as they can recover very quickly, reset the board and win.

4-0-1

T8:

Quarter Finals: Sebastien (Seb on TheSource) playing Canadian Thresh (Delver, Goyf, Mongoose package)

G1: This games was won by dropping threat after threat. He soon ran out of answers for my 2x Delvers, Lavamancer, Goyf and Clique.

The following games were a grind. We boarded in the same cards. Saving Stifles to protect our own land. Returning Trops with daze to circumvent Submerge. Fucking each others Delver combat math with Stifles on the trigger. Tons of fun.

G2: He has REB for my early Delver (it still gets in for 9 damage), Snare for my goyf. I drop Lavamancer, which forces him to hold back on threats. He finds Dismember and drops a Lavamancer of his own. A Goyf soon joins the wizard. With a combination of Forces protecting them, they seal the deal.

G3: I manage to stick a Delver bringing him down to 15, before it gets 2x Dismembered (I have Force for the first copy). I then drop a Goyf, but he has Submerge. He then wastes my only G source and has Stifle for my fetch. We go back and forth for a while. He summons a Delver. I find and drop my own. During his upkeep he Brainstorms with the Delver trigger on the stack. I stifle the trigger. He counters my Snare on his goyf with REB. I reveal Force of Will with my Delver and use a Dismember (bringing me to 2 life) in hand to get rid of his Goyf. For some stupid reason (fatigue), I decide to attack with my Delver. It's too late to take it back. He flips a Spell Snare and takes it.

4-1-1

The deck was a sound choice (with the proper sideboard) in a field of Stoneforge Mystics and Snapcasters. This deck tends to rewards good play immensely and is good choice when facing an unknown competitive meta.

Props:

Having enough sleep.
Eating breakfast.
Canadian Threshold for being a blast to play.
Pyroblasts.
Awesome snacks. (Cliff Bars, Honey Crisp apples)
Face to Face Games (http://www.facetofacegames.com/) for backing Legacy in Montreal and being the best card store in the city.

Slops:

Getting paired down in round 4.
Miss playing when it really counts.
Coming home and finding my apartment door wide open. Got robbed while I was out. All laptops stolen + some cash. Last thing I needed.

Chikenbok
10-24-2011, 01:09 AM
Anyone considered a grixis list holding grims out of the main? I mean.. I'd really just play any deck that I can play dark confidant and force of will in together. This list is almost a straight port from a more traditional bug list I was playing with 4 bob, 4 goyf, 3 delver, 3 mongoose. I wanted to test out snaps and well, they're kinda the tits.

Something along the lines of:

Beats:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets

Stuff to Cast:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Dismember
1 Diabolic Edict

Walkers:
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

Stuff for casting other stuff:
1 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
SB: 3 Grim Lavamancer
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void


Eh?

Pippin
10-24-2011, 02:17 AM
So, strong finishes at GP Amsterdam with 1 finals appearance and several top 32...
Same goes for SCG Legacy Open with several Canadians in top 8 (one with counterbalance combo added).
People finally caught up with power of Delver, though I must admit it took quite a while for people on SCG circuit to catch on.

bizovski
10-24-2011, 03:40 PM
I flush a useless Trop, only to draw an Island instead.

Doesn't Clique say nonland card ? :D

BackDr0p
10-24-2011, 03:44 PM
Doesn't Clique say nonland card ? :D

Thank you for pointing that out. Very "Source-like" of you. It was something useless/irrelevant. In the future I'll make an effort to take more detailed notes and improve my memory. Life stuff happened just when I was about to post this and got everything mixed up.

Cthuloo
10-25-2011, 08:54 AM
So, while Canadian Threshold obtained multiple placements in the top32 @ the GP, there's no sign of the Dark variant. Any thoughts? Looking at the megame breakdown one could think that DT should perform even better than CT, since it has generally a better matchup vs maverick and bant decks. Is this failure to perform simply due to the variant beign not well known and therefore non widely played, or do you think there's something more behind?

miko
10-25-2011, 10:17 AM
I think it was not played by too many people. It should be pretty good in the current meta.

Shugyosha
10-25-2011, 10:19 AM
So, while Canadian Threshold obtained multiple placements in the top32 @ the GP, there's no sign of the Dark variant. Any thoughts? Looking at the megame breakdown one could think that DT should perform even better than CT, since it has generally a better matchup vs maverick and bant decks. Is this failure to perform simply due to the variant beign not well known and therefore non widely played, or do you think there's something more behind?

Burnspells as reach are more synergetic with Delver of Secrets than hard removal is. But Canadian also has hard removal with 1-2 Dismember now. Canadian can also play Extirpates in the form of Surgical Extraction. So Canadian got many synergetic tools lately that Dark Thresh always had and can play Burn and Red Blasts which were huge in the GP meta.

JJ_JKidd
10-26-2011, 01:47 AM
So, strong finishes at GP Amsterdam with 1 finals appearance and several top 32...
Same goes for SCG Legacy Open with several Canadians in top 8 (one with counterbalance combo added).
People finally caught up with power of Delver, though I must admit it took quite a while for people on SCG circuit to catch on.

Currently testing Barnett's (6th @ SCG) list and its kinda mana light IMHO with only 18 lands. Pre-board KoTR as usual is the issue esp with Bant which has Noble Hierarch to fix mana-screw issues.

Pippin
10-26-2011, 03:14 AM
Currently testing Barnett's (6th @ SCG) list and its kinda mana light IMHO with only 18 lands. Pre-board KoTR as usual is the issue esp with Bant which has Noble Hierarch to fix mana-screw issues.

This has been known for quite some time - KoTR is basically deck's biggest enemy. The more there are KoTR decks, the less effective Canadian becomes. This is especially true if KoTR is paired with Stoneforge Mystics, Green Sun's Zeniths and Goyf's since every one of those spells is really problematic.

However with Delver it's possible to steal games every now and then, not to mention the ability to tempo them out (wasteland/stifle/daze).
Sideboard is what matters - Submerge, Mind Harness, Gilded Drake. Numbers of those need to be tweaked according to expected metagame. For example Gilded Drake is golden against KoTR, but a single STP completely stops it and still leaves them with a knight.

Saying all this, Barnett's deck looks strange. I'm not sure how he managed to play Snapcaster Mage correctly with 18 lands. I'm guessing more often than not they were the worst cards in deck, often being completely dead in hand. To function properly they should be put in Next Level Threshold shell/variant, with at least 21 lands. Ideally even more than that.

JJ_JKidd
10-26-2011, 03:41 AM
This has been known for quite some time - KoTR is basically deck's biggest enemy. The more there are KoTR decks, the less effective Canadian becomes. This is especially true if KoTR is paired with Stoneforge Mystics, Green Sun's Zeniths and Goyf's since every one of those spells is really problematic.

However with Delver it's possible to steal games every now and then, not to mention the ability to tempo them out (wasteland/stifle/daze).
Sideboard is what matters - Submerge, Mind Harness, Gilded Drake. Numbers of those need to be tweaked according to expected metagame. For example Gilded Drake is golden against KoTR, but a single STP completely stops it and still leaves them with a knight.

Saying all this, Barnett's deck looks strange. I'm not sure how he managed to play Snapcaster Mage correctly with 18 lands. I'm guessing more often than not they were the worst cards in deck, often being completely dead in hand. To function properly they should be put in Next Level Threshold shell/variant, with at least 21 lands. Ideally even more than that.

Goyf and Mystic would probably be taken care of by Spell Snares, plus L. Bolt for the latter. However, a Zenith-ed Goyf would be a pain since its almost pretty sure that their's (Goyf) is bigger due to N. Hierarch and Qasali Pridemage. What I would try, though, is to cut one Snapcaster and to try one Phantasmal Image to hopefully copy a KoTR since we can almost always make it bigger since we have Forest to sacrifice and since Snapcaster in a tight mana base light Barnett's is such a dead card early game.

It is also interesting that no *****/RUG list had Submerge if I remember correctly. I assumed that Barnett's 3 copies of Macabre provide for some kind of flexibility in the Reanimator, UW Snapcaster, and KoTR MUs which Submerge does not.

Koplinchen
10-28-2011, 02:39 AM
This thread should be moved into "Decks to beat" since its one of the best tier1s right now. It beats everything.

Zilla
10-28-2011, 02:49 AM
We have a system in place for determining DTBs. Be patient.

Demonic_Attorney
10-29-2011, 04:09 PM
And with all due respect, the criteria for that system has been met and therefore, this deck ought to be moved to the decks to beat forum forthwith.

Patients is a virtue this deck doesn't have and since the banning of Mental Misstep, this deck has made the top 8 and top 16 in a lot of large scale legacy events; including placing in second place at the biggest legacy tournament of the year! If this deck isn't a deck to beat in the present legacy metagame right now, I don't know what is! Thresh has conspicuously posted much better results recently then at least three of the decks presently in the DTB forum right now.

Zilla
10-29-2011, 04:26 PM
And with all due respect, the criteria for that system has been met and therefore, this deck ought to be moved to the decks to beat forum forthwith.

Patients is a virtue this deck doesn't have and since the banning of Mental Misstep, this deck has made the top 8 and top 16 in a lot of large scale legacy events; including placing in second place at the biggest legacy tournament of the year! If this deck isn't a deck to beat in the present legacy metagame right now, I don't know what is! Thresh has conspicuously posted much better results recently then at least three of the decks presently in the DTB forum right now.
The system in place determines not only the criteria for inclusion, but also the frequency with which we add and remove decks to and from the DTB forum. In short, it will get done when it gets done. If you feel the need to discuss it further, please do so via PM so we can keep this thread on track. Thanks.

Koby
10-30-2011, 01:25 AM
Goyf and Mystic would probably be taken care of by Spell Snares, plus L. Bolt for the latter. However, a Zenith-ed Goyf would be a pain since its almost pretty sure that their's (Goyf) is bigger due to N. Hierarch and Qasali Pridemage. What I would try, though, is to cut one Snapcaster and to try one Phantasmal Image to hopefully copy a KoTR since we can almost always make it bigger since we have Forest to sacrifice and since Snapcaster in a tight mana base light Barnett's is such a dead card early game.

It is also interesting that no *****/RUG list had Submerge if I remember correctly. I assumed that Barnett's 3 copies of Macabre provide for some kind of flexibility in the Reanimator, UW Snapcaster, and KoTR MUs which Submerge does not.

Using Phantasmal Image against Maverick isn't the best idea. Quirion Ranger/Scryb Ranger can dispatch it very easily. Against the deck you want to push the Tempo angle and not be afraid to use removal on Hierarchs. Be careful not to let Mother of Runes resolve/get active. She can turn the tide completely against Tempo decks and force you to waste too many cards to deal.

The trouble is that once Maverick lands a threat, it's very difficult to trump it with the cards available in Tempo. The best strategy is to land an early Delver and ride the tempo. Fire/Ice is also really good in this matchup since many of Maverick's support cast are x/1.

Gilded Drake works too, but you'll often end up with a tapped KotR against their mid-range army. Exalted Gilded Drake is also bigger than any of your potential blockers.

I would suggest to keep the SB hate to Submerge and other forms of bounce spells.

Jonathan Alexander
10-30-2011, 06:05 AM
My team has been running 3 Submerge and 2 Gilded Drake in the board, alongside a singleton Grim Lavamancer. Submerge on Dryad Arbor is probably your strongest play in this matchup, followed by burning two manadudes with Fire // Ice and stealing a Knight.
Submerge and Gilded Drake also nicely combine. Stealing two of your opponent's Knights is just incredible, especially if they only get a single Drake. You have to land the Drake immediately after they cast the Knight though, if they untap with Knight Of The Reliquary, it will be very hard for you to win.
Landing (and being able to protect) a first turn Delver is also very good in this matchup, as in most others. With evasive beats supported by burn spells you can sometimes also just kill them before Knight becomes relevant.
What you absolutely do not want to face is Scavenging Ooze. That little bastard can easily wreck you.

Tammit67
10-30-2011, 03:30 PM
What you absolutely do not want to face is Scavenging Ooze. That little bastard can easily wreck you.

He's a fucker alright. And the main reason why I don't play this deck too often. My area is in love with him.

Vandalize
10-30-2011, 08:38 PM
There're three ways of dealing with Maverick in Legacy:

1) Play Tendrils.dec.
2) Play Perish.
3) Fuck up their acceleration.

Canadian Thresh can only do the 3rd option, and that's how it goes. Wasteland/Stifle and killing manadorks is REALLY important against Maverick. Save counterspells for their removal, or big stuff like a KotR and SFM. Grim Lavamancer and Fire//Ice goes a long way against Maverick as well.

Post-board is gets better with Submerges and stealing stuff. Mind Harness is a beast in that matchup. By the time you need it, you'll likely have delievered 10 good points of damage, and a 2 turns Mind Harness should be enough, and it's the best stealing spell avaliable.

Seb
10-30-2011, 11:20 PM
Snapcaster Can Thresh looks like its gonna win the SCG Open. Its opponent (BUG) plays like a monkey, but still...

Yay for Can Thresh.

So... Mongoose/Lavamancer/Snapcaster? I must admit that the Snapcasters seem better than I thought, even with 18 lands.

Koby
10-30-2011, 11:33 PM
Snapcaster Can Thresh looks like its gonna win the SCG Open. Its opponent (BUG) plays like a monkey, but still...

Best way to beat a monkey is to remove all his bananas ;P

atropos
10-31-2011, 10:12 AM
What do you guys think of the singleton Temporal Spring I've been seeing in various top-8 lists? Anybody care to comment on that?

tsabo_tavoc
10-31-2011, 10:29 AM
What do you guys think of the singleton Temporal Spring I've been seeing in various top-8 lists? Anybody care to comment on that?

It is like the Rushing River / Wipe Away slot from the old school list, very versatile and an answer to Counterbalance. Returning to the library top gains tempo advantage and card advantage, but Sorcery speed is a trade off. Being able to target lands is a nice benefit, as his list already has 4 Wasteland, 4 Stifle and 4 Snapcaster Mage.

Dark Ritual
10-31-2011, 12:04 PM
If it were instant speed I would play it. But as a sorcery it seems meh at best and seems just worse than dismember. Sure it can put problem non creatures on top but it seems too slow and clunky against because it's a sorcery.

The saving grace of gilded drake being exchanges with knight is that drake can be bolted and killed. I also love the submerge trick with gilded drake, absolutely hilarious to submerge their dude to steal another dude of theirs.

Firespout also works against maverick kind of well because of mom granting protection to one creature to survive. But if they don't have mom out it can be a real blowout.

Agreed on scavenging ooze wrecking us. Good thing ooze isn't mainstream right now because that guy is sick.

Plague Sliver
10-31-2011, 12:14 PM
You guys may have missed the post-finals discussion with David Thomas on SCG Live.

David is obviously a good player, he says he audibled this deck after playing Dredge for the longest time.

He also says the following (paraphrasing, of course):
- He doesn't miss Mongoose or Fire//Ice at all.
- Temporal Spring was probably a mistake. He boarded it out in almost every matchup, except for a Tendrils matchup where his opponent misplayed anyway.
- In hindsight the CB Top package would have been good.

Not sure if it's going to be archived, but that was the discussion he had with Zach Hill and Gavin Verhey.

Nordvoll
10-31-2011, 08:24 PM
Hi!
I have seen som lists running 1-2 Engineered Explosives SB.
Have any of you tested EE?

they seems good on paper
They are very flexible,dodges counterbalance and can even kill a resolved KOTR in 2 turns provided u have 3 lands in play (no wastelands:b)

Any toughts ?

Koby
10-31-2011, 08:27 PM
Have any of you tested EE?


EE has been used in the past to deal with Zoo decks, and really any deck relying on 1-drops. It's a little less effective on 2-drops, but not unheard of. It is very flexible removal that is sometimes good in an aggro metagame, or in anticipation of Dredge.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
11-01-2011, 12:29 AM
Just thought I'd post this here. I played UGW Thresh to a 3-0-1 finish tonight. Here's the list:

18 Land
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Island
4 Wasteland

12 Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Nimble Monoose
1 Vendilion Clique

30 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Dismember

15 Sideboard
3 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Null Rod
1 Krosan Grip
1 Dispel
1 Gilded Drake
1 Submerge
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Hurkyl's Recall

Round 1 against Ravager Affinity, 2-1
Round 2 against Reanimator, 2-0
Round 3 against Snapcaster BUG, 2-1
Round 4 against 12- Post, ID

Loved the deck. Not too much I'd change about it. I'd play Canadian Thresh, but bolt doesn't get rid of the creatures I care about.

Dark Ritual
11-01-2011, 12:54 PM
Well (really crazy suggestion coming up) maybe you could run dismember 'over' bolt and do a 4/2 split of dismember and bolt favoring dismember. Since dismember kills almost everything except for terravore and kotr sometimes but in those cases you can use it as a combat trick sometimes.

I wouldn't waste 6-8 slots on counterbalance top in the SB of canadian thresh. I see zero reason to run that package; it's meh against aggro, alright against control, and really good against combo (why do we need to improve combo again? If you're really worried run flusterstorm in the side). The only good card in the package is sensei's top and that's because it filters draws. But I don't see why we should run the package when we run only 18 lands so its hard to even get it online turn 3 if we miss our third landdrop. If you want to play counterbalance I suggest you play a deck focused on counterbalance in the MD.

Zilla
11-01-2011, 01:28 PM
Well (really crazy suggestion coming up) maybe you could run dismember 'over' bolt and do a 4/2 split of dismember and bolt favoring dismember. Since dismember kills almost everything except for terravore and kotr sometimes but in those cases you can use it as a combat trick sometimes.
Losing 4 life every time you cast Dismember is highly relevant, especially in the aggro matchups, which is where you need removal the most. I think 2 is the maximum you want to run in the deck. Besides, when Random says that Bolt doesn't answer the creatures he wants to answer and StP does, he's referring specifically to KotR, which Dismember often can't touch anyway. There are also various Reanimator creatures where StP outshines Dismember as well.

The main problem with white (aside from the lack of REB for the Spiral Tide/Hive Mind matchups) is that Bolt also gives you reach in the late game, and that matter more often than you might think.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
11-01-2011, 03:17 PM
Losing 4 life every time you cast Dismember is highly relevant, especially in the aggro matchups, which is where you need removal the most. I think 2 is the maximum you want to run in the deck. Besides, when Random says that Bolt doesn't answer the creatures he wants to answer and StP does, he's referring specifically to KotR, which Dismember often can't touch anyway. There are also various Reanimator creatures where StP outshines Dismember as well.

The main problem with white (aside from the lack of REB for the Spiral Tide/Hive Mind matchups) is that Bolt also gives you reach in the late game, and that matter more often than you might think.

If my swords were bolts in game two against BUG Control, I would have one. But overall being able to remove his Goyfs helped more. But yeah, red is probably better.

mchainmail
11-01-2011, 03:42 PM
Losing 4 life every time you cast Dismember is highly relevant, especially in the aggro matchups, which is where you need removal the most. I think 2 is the maximum you want to run in the deck. Besides, when Random says that Bolt doesn't answer the creatures he wants to answer and StP does, he's referring specifically to KotR, which Dismember often can't touch anyway. There are also various Reanimator creatures where StP outshines Dismember as well.


You can run 3 Dismember. Nobody is actually playing Zoo right now.

Zilla
11-01-2011, 11:08 PM
You can run 3 Dismember. Nobody is actually playing Zoo right now.
You can, but I wouldn't. There are plenty of other aggressive decks in the format that make it a risky card to play in multiples. I rarely want to play more than one in a game, and I can't remember a time I'd have wanted to play more than two. For matchups where Dismember's effect is highly sought after, you have Submerge and/or Gilded Drake from the board, and they're simply stronger options in those situations, imo.

Serbitar
11-03-2011, 10:14 AM
Classic question: Do you play first turn Delver (Goose) or hold open Stifle?

Say, you are on the play against an unknown opponent with the following hand:
Delver, Stifle, Tropical, Wasteland, Daze, Ponder, Spell Snare

Does the reasoning change, if you have a second blue source? (You could then play Delver 2nd turn with Stifle up.) If you have Brainstorm? If you have/do not have Wasteland?

I myself generally lead with the creature (though I would wait on Ponder) - but I'm not sure this is correct.

Zilla
11-03-2011, 12:18 PM
It depends a lot on what else in your hand. As a rule of thumb, I choose holding back for Stifle over a first turn Mongoose, because without Thresh he's not a real clock anyway. I may play a first turn Delver over holding back for Stifle, but I'm much more comfortable doing that if I have a Daze or FoW to protect it, or if I have Brainstorm to use on the following turn's upkeep to be sure I can transform it, or both.

It depends on other cards as well. For example, I'm much more likely to hold back for Stifle if I also have a Wasteland or two to bolster the mana denial strategy. One Stifle on its own probably isn't going to win you a game, but if it's reinforced by other disruption it absolutely can, and then it makes more sense to wait that extra turn to drop Delver.

defector
11-03-2011, 12:57 PM
Just built this deck and am playtesting now, so far absolutely love it. I am currently working on the creature configuration. I think 4 delver/4 goyf is beyond dispute, though would certainly like to hear a different opinion. I am running 3 snapcast and 3 mongoose bringing my total to 14 creatures. I don't run drake in the board currently so thats the lot. The big question is Grim Lavamancer. I can't fit him in and I feel like running him makes me want to put in a mountain main to guarantee him. Any thoughts on ideal creature config?
thanks
defector

Zilla
11-03-2011, 02:37 PM
I'm not sold on Snapcaster, even though a lot of people have been running him to good effect. It does give the deck a bit of gas in the mid to late game, which is nice, but it still seems mana intensive for a deck with 18 lands. You don't really want to see him in the early game at all, and the more of him you run, the fewer things you have to flash back with him. If I were to decide to run him, I don't think I'd run more than 2, personally.

As for Lavamancer vs. Goose, it's pretty much a metagame call. It's rarely correct to run both, imo. In a metagame rife with tribal aggro I'd run Lavamancer. Against Zoo and a combo and control, I'd rather have Goose.

Serbitar
11-03-2011, 02:48 PM
... or if I have Brainstorm to use on the following turn's upkeep to be sure I can transform it ...

That brings me to another question: Is it really worth it to Brainstorm just to make sure to transform Delver? (That is, without a fetch - just T1 Delver, T2 upkeep Brainstorm.) That play looks kind of bad, but I guess this deck is aggressive enough that the classic "Only Brainstorm with Fetch or while desperate" rule might not apply.

And are there cards you would not reveal with Delver (e.g. Daze)?

As for the creature configuration, I concur that Snapcaster Mage looks very clunky in our 14 land deck (Wastelands don't really count). Plus, one of the cards you are getting out of it, the Mage himself, often is not really a serious threat (which Vendilion Clique used to be at 3cc).

from Cairo
11-03-2011, 03:48 PM
Say, you are on the play against an unknown opponent with the following hand:
Delver, Stifle, Tropical, Wasteland, Daze, Ponder, Spell Snare


With that hand, on the play against an unknown, I would leave mana up for Stifle. I think you stand to gain a lot more board position than you stand to lose.

If they lead fetch you can Stifle, if they lead Wasteland you can Stifle, if it's storm combo or some kind of Stompy deck you have Spell Snare up. This way you get to see their lead and access the best route to continue the game.

If you get to hit their fetch you can follow up with Ponder or Delver, and either make another land drop or play out Wasteland. If they led a Dual you can Waste them and pass still threatening Stifle for turn 2. Worst case scenario I guess they lead a basic in which case you missed a turn 1 play, but still have Spell Snare and Stifle in hand to answer their 2nd turn action.

A turn or two later you're probably in a position to set up Delver with Ponder, and there's a decent chance their mana's been disrupted.

berry
11-03-2011, 04:12 PM
A few questions:

1. What is your (as in, all of you) stance on the RUG CB/top-build (not GerryTs, the other one) vs a regular Delver + Goyf + Lavamancer/Snappy-list? Pro's and Con's? I can't stop looking at the CB/top-version.

2. Would a super-agressive list work? I'm thinking either all-in with Delver/Mongoose/Snappy + Bolts and maybe even a few Chain Lightning - OR - Goyf/Delver/few Mongoose/few Snappy (as someone above was playing).

3. Goyf, is he absolutely needed?

4. Ancient Grudge vs Krosan Grip vs Nature's Claim.

Quite alot of questions, indeed, but I'm new to the deck and my mind just can't decide what path I want to go down...

EDIT: Also, the biggest reason that's holding me back from going into CB/Top = Loss of Wasteland, feels so huge.

Peruzo
11-03-2011, 06:21 PM
Hi guys, I´m running the list that placed second at Amsterdam
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpams11/welcome#0
I´ve changed the maindeck Nimble Mongoose with Grim Lavamancer, and I´d like your feed back on this. Zilla said that Grim is only good vs Tribal Agro, but i disagree, thinking that in the first turns both hit as 1/1, and grim can hit 5 toughness creatures with lightning bolt and 7 toughness with dismember. In case that he gets removal he just acted as a lightning rod for goyf and delver. Let me know what you think. Regards

Zilla
11-03-2011, 07:12 PM
With that hand, on the play against an unknown, I would leave mana up for Stifle. I think you stand to gain a lot more board position than you stand to lose.
Agree with this, btw. I missed the sample hand from that post. With no way to guarantee a transform on Delver, and with no Fetchland to protect yourself from a turn 1 Waste, and with two 1cc disruption options available, and with a Wasteland of your own to bolster the mana denial strategy of Stifle, I think it's a no-brainer to wait until at least turn 2 to play Delver.




That brings me to another question: Is it really worth it to Brainstorm just to make sure to transform Delver?
Again, depends on the rest of the hand. Do I only have 1 color-producing mana in my opening 7? Then there's a fair chance I want to Brainstorm on turn 2 anyway to try and make that second drop. Do I have a fetch? Then a turn 2 Brainstorm isn't awful, and sets you up for a fast, aggressive clock. I think it really depends on how much your hand needs sculpting early on to know if Brainstorm is the right play there. It's definitely not unconditionally the right play. If I have no fetch and no Daze or FoW to protect Delver, I'm probably not going to Brainstorm on turn 2 upkeep, or play Delver turn 1, for that matter.


And are there cards you would not reveal with Delver (e.g. Daze)?
I do think there are some times where it's correct not to reveal, but it really depends on the scenario. Daze and Stifle are definitely at the top of my "potentially won't reveal" list, but it also depends how relevant those cards are at any given moment. This deck isn't a balls to the wall aggro deck, (although it can sometimes play like one), so whether or not you go full aggro with Delver is really dependent upon what role you're playing at any given moment.




What is your (as in, all of you) stance on the RUG CB/top-build (not GerryTs, the other one) vs a regular Delver + Goyf + Lavamancer/Snappy-list? Pro's and Con's? I can't stop looking at the CB/top-version.
Countertop seems wrong for this deck for a couple reasons. First, it requires a lot of non-instant/sorcery slots in the deck, which makes for poor synergy with Delver. Second, it tends to solve a problem the deck doesn't really have. Namely, it strengthens your already strong combo matchup, without doing much for the aggro matchup. Seems to me like Countertop belongs in a more midrange control oriented strategy than in a tempo strategy, where you want to disrupt early and then win quickly. I openly admit I could be wrong on this, but that's my gut feeling.


Would a super-agressive list work? I'm thinking either all-in with Delver/Mongoose/Snappy + Bolts and maybe even a few Chain Lightning - OR - Goyf/Delver/few Mongoose/few Snappy (as someone above was playing).
If that's what you're looking for, try Blue Zoo (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20129-Deck-Blue-Zoo/page15). It's basically Canadian Thresh minus Stifle and Wasteland, plus Wild Nacatl and burn. I personally think the deck has a ton of potential.


Goyf, is he absolutely needed?
No, but he's probably your best option for that slot. You could theoretically run Snapcaster in that slot and do okay. You could also run both Lavamancer and Mongoose in the same maindeck in order to make yourself completely immune to Spell Snare, although that has some obvious potential drawbacks. In theory you might run Scavenging ooze in that slot; it's good against a lot of decks right now.


4. Ancient Grudge vs Krosan Grip vs Nature's Claim.
Depends on the expected meta, but for an unknown one I prefer Grudge. Grip is expensive for this deck, and right now there are a lot more problematic artifacts than there are enchantments. Plus there's the potential card advantage of getting a second use out of it. I prefer both Grudge and Grip to Nature's Claim because they give you outs to Chalice set at 1.




I´ve changed the maindeck Nimble Mongoose with Grim Lavamancer, and I´d like your feed back on this. Zilla said that Grim is only good vs Tribal Agro, but i disagree
I didn't mean to suggest that it was only good against tribal aggro, because that's certainly not the case. It's very good in the Maverick matchup, for example. Killing Hierarchs and Arbors is a very effective strategy there. I do think that Lavamancer in the same deck as both Mongoose and Goyf seems like a bad idea, though. When 'mancer is potentially hurting 8 cards in your deck, he's kind of a tough sell.

berry
11-04-2011, 03:22 AM
I agree that CB/Top makes it harder to flip Delver, but am I wrong in feeling it also strengthens the mirror? 4 Grims to take care of the early drops and then stabilizing with CB/Top seems strong.

But you believe this should rather be in something like Next Lvl Thresh/GerryTs Punishing RUG/Top-builds? I could buy that.

How then, would an opted tempo-build look like? I feel like the Grims are not maindeckable unless your meta is full of Fish, Zoo or the mirror - so what is?

4 Goyf, 4 delver, X, X? Is Mongoose out for good?

About the artifact-hate - my meta does have some CB and some Deeds, that's why I'm considering other than Ancient Grudge... Nature's Claim has the plus of being flashbackable "cheaply" with Snapcaster, too.

from Cairo
11-04-2011, 09:12 AM
How then, would an opted tempo-build look like? I feel like the Grims are not maindeckable unless your meta is full of Fish, Zoo or the mirror - so what is?

4 Goyf, 4 delver, X, X? Is Mongoose out for good?

About the artifact-hate - my meta does have some CB and some Deeds, that's why I'm considering other than Ancient Grudge... Nature's Claim has the plus of being flashbackable "cheaply" with Snapcaster, too.

Probably more of a Sb card, but Phyrexian Revoker could be tried to help against Artifacts. It can needle SDT or Deed. Contributes to the mana denial strategy shutting down: Vial, LED, or moxen. And nullifies some random things if they slip past counters/removal: equipment, Thopter Foundry, random utility guys (MoR, Ooze, Thrun's regen). It's probably not the best against any given threat, but it compensates with wide application.

Peruzo
11-04-2011, 09:52 AM
Zilla could you please post a link to your current list? I'm with the idea of playing 4 delver 4 goyf and 3 snapcasters for creatures

Zilla
11-04-2011, 12:09 PM
My list is pretty standard:

4 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember

SB:
2 Gilded Drake
3 Submerge
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Firespout
3 Surgical Extraction

The sideboard is largely set up to hate on Maverick and other KotR decks, which are some of this this deck's most difficult matchups.

Peruzo
11-05-2011, 08:48 AM
Excellent list. It´s perfectly tuned. I´ll try it out and let you know my thoughts

berry
11-05-2011, 09:45 AM
I too, really enjoy this kind of list, I'll probably go 3 Mongoose, 3 Daze, 2 Snapcaster/Grim - but still.

Will try it out on weekly legacy tour on wednesday! :)

jardach
11-05-2011, 09:54 AM
Hello everyone,

I need some recommendation or ideas to help with sideboard, I play classic version of Canadian *****,last week I participate my weekly legacy tournament,and meta went crazy. From 21 players,there were 10 can.*****,5 combos,2 maverick,BUG,UW 2 random decks...

Next week,we are going to have a bigger tournament (60+ players) and for sure,there will be at least 15 canadas treshes(25%).

Any suggestions for sideboard plan in mirror?

Zilla
11-05-2011, 02:22 PM
It was discussed earlier on this page, but the CounterTop combo should destroy the mirror. In fact, take a look at the list that made 7th (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=42045) at SCG KC last weekend.

It's got the CounterTop combo, a bunch of basics to avoid opposing Wastelands, and Blood Moon in the board. If you're looking for a Can. Thresh list that beats the mirror, that's probably a very good place to start.

jardach
11-05-2011, 03:40 PM
It was discussed earlier on this page, but the CounterTop combo should destroy the mirror. In fact, take a look at the list that made 7th (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=42045) at SCG KC last weekend.

It's got the CounterTop combo, a bunch of basics to avoid opposing Wastelands, and Blood Moon in the board. If you're looking for a Can. Thresh list that beats the mirror, that's probably a very good place to start.


thanks

oRen
11-05-2011, 05:23 PM
My list is pretty standard:

4 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember

SB:
2 Gilded Drake
3 Submerge
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Firespout
3 Surgical Extraction

The sideboard is largely set up to hate on Maverick and other KotR decks, which are some of this this deck's most difficult matchups.

Hey thanks a lot for the input! I ended up with a list with -1 fetch +1 Trop and a slighty different SB (3 Krosan Grip, 2 Submerge, 3 Surgical Extraction, 3 Pyroblast, 2 Mind Harness, 2 Firespout).

Could you explain why you went down to 3 Trops? While it is true that Fetchlands make especially Ponder a lot better I do not see the reason why to run less than 4 Trops in this deck. Thanks!

defector
11-05-2011, 07:23 PM
Thanks for the advice in the creature config, I am going to tgry 3 snapcaster mainly because i feel pot committed I spent so much on those bastards that i need to play them:) I like that list above though I echo the confusion, I run either one basic Island and one basic Mountin or I run the 4 duals. I think the two best mana bases fis this deck are: Fetch X6, Waste X4, Trop X4, Volc X4 or Fetch X6, Waste X4, Trop X3, Volc X3, Mountain X1, Island X1. I believe in the power of basic lands though and I hate, like rage quit, hate getting wasted out so I usually run the two basics. Just my .02, good list.

Zilla
11-05-2011, 07:45 PM
Could you explain why you went down to 3 Trops?
I guess I'm just greedy. I want Thresh as early as possible and I always want to be able to shuffle my Brainstorms. Not to say that it can never happen, but I can't recall a game where I've gone to fetch a Trop and not had one available either in my deck or already on the board.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with a 7/7 fetch/dual ratio, or a 6/8 ratio. If I were to drop fetches from my list it would be the blue ones. Dropping a turn 1 Foothills and passing the turn game one doesn't telegraph Daze or Stifle, which feels like cheating. Incidentally, that's one of the reasons I don't like to play the basic Island, because it can't be fetched with Foothills.

Nordvoll
11-06-2011, 03:29 PM
Hey all!
I played a local torurnement today (11 players) and finished second.

4-2-0

M1 - Homebrew RW Beatdown 2-0
Not much to say

M2 - GWR Maverick 0-2
(Very hard matchup. punishing + loam/waste-lock)


M3 - Maverick 2-1 (almost same deck as game 2)
g1 -lost
g2 - Early beats , submerge and bolt
g3 - Same story. I felt lucky

M4 - Burn 2-0
My deck was faster

M5. - The Gate 2-0
1. game was very close. Hi played Blossom + Persectuorx2. forced/countered sac effects and stifled liliana, denying him to kill his own Persecuters. Bolt + Grim activation finaly finished him.
Game 2: Early beats + lightning bolts finished him. Countered relevant spells.

M6 - 0-2 Maverick (same player as g2)
Same story as last time :(


My deck:
3 Grim L
4 Delver
4 Tarmo

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 STifle
4 Daze
4 Force
4 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolts
2 Dismember
1 Fire // Ice

4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

SB
4 Submerge
2 Pyroblast
2 Red elemental blast
2 Firespoute
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Spell pirce


Maveric is a pain!
Next time i think i will change my sb: - 1 Spell pirce -2 Firespoute + 3 S. Extractions.

Koplinchen
11-07-2011, 03:45 AM
How to combat mirror? What would you add to side? Our field is getting more and more infested with Canadian *****.

Scordata
11-07-2011, 12:01 PM
How to beat the mirror:

The short answer - play better than your opponent.

The long answer - First off, as a rule of thumb, crack your fetchlands only when you need the mana, and typically during your opponents upkeep. You can only play footsie with lands for so long, someone will eventually take the advantage.

Save your snares for their snapcasters. This may sound unintuitive, largely in part because this deck can have fits dealing with a resolved tarmogoyf. The reasoning is that snapcaster will yeild value in the form of a card, whereas you can always just play a tarmogoyf of your own or dismember theirs.

I'd say it could be largely draw dependent, but that's not really true because of Brainstorm and ponder. A good poker face has always gone side by side with this deck.

There's lots of other little things you need to be aware of as well. Always consider your opponents options before making your own.

PS - don't play temporal spring. Sorcery speed? are you kidding me? Whatever happened to rushing river? Maindeck spell pierces can be better in place of things like Loam and other bounce. I would use bounce in a larger metagame, such as an SCG event, but I use Pierces for the local event, to help stop things like Aether Vial, and combo.

jardach
11-07-2011, 12:49 PM
How to combat mirror? What would you add to side? Our field is getting more and more infested with Canadian *****.

Infested? No way...only 45% of the field :wink:

useL
11-07-2011, 01:26 PM
How bad are basics? I got demolished last tournament I played because I could not fetch a mountain for my red sideboard. Is it viable to add a mountain and an island instead of 1 Volcanic Island and a spell? Does 19 lands hurt you alot?

Scordata
11-07-2011, 01:29 PM
Unless I thought Grim Lavamancer was necessary, I would not add a mountain.

Also, the basic lands question has been done to death. Don't put them in. Makes daze worse, you'll have to mulligan more etc. etc. etc.

I can almost get behind basic island with the new goyf/delver/snapcaster config, but even then I shudder to think about it.

Pelikanudo
11-07-2011, 01:38 PM
I thinkmk now related to the Delver issue can perfectly replace the Nimble,
The changes I've done:
-1 Tropical +1 Island : Now we do not have the need to play a turn 1 nimble.
-4 Nimble +4 Delve
I prefer to keep the Fire/Ice and I hate Dismember as would be the unique card that is not synergic, I mean, does not hurt and is not cunter and is not tempo Creature.
So I have 2 slots:
I filled them with Vendilion at first, however I notice how bad they re whan you draw delve and Vendilion, I mean, 1 is a 3/1 by 3 and the other a 3/2 by 1...
So I want these slots to be replaced by a good creature or something, but I don't know what.
I've been thinking in Counterspell, more cantrip in form of preordain, Lorescale Cotal, Terravore..., I 've considered snapcaster but.. I want something that kills..
The idea is that from now on 2shold is not GY dependant , (issue that 3shold never addressed) and now nimble is replaceable.
but we need or more counter to my creature OR more good creatures (I'd like to play some how Tombstalker which is that fits more this space) OR more cantrip-to-what-I-want.
Midirection maybe?¿?

I need suggestions about these 2 slots and if any shares this idea...

BackDr0p
11-07-2011, 01:43 PM
With the results of last nights SCG Open up, how do you think the meta is going to adept to the increasingly large amounts of Canadian Threshold? What kind of hate should be anticipated? Counterbalance? Engineered Explosives? Back to Basics?

@Pelikanudo

I wouldn't play missdirection for the simple reason that this deck doesn't need more card disadvantage. I do recommend playing a third Fire//Ice and Rushing River. They fulfill the tempo roles required by the deck quite well.

Pippin
11-08-2011, 01:26 AM
With the results of last nights SCG Open up, how do you think the meta is going to adept to the increasingly large amounts of Canadian Threshold? What kind of hate should be anticipated? Counterbalance? Engineered Explosives? Back to Basics?

@Pelikanudo

I wouldn't play missdirection for the simple reason that this deck doesn't need more card disadvantage. I do recommend playing a third Fire//Ice and Rushing River. They fulfill the tempo roles required by the deck quite well.

If someone wants to answer Tempo decks he should just pick up either Bant, GW Maverick (with or without Punishing Fire combo) or a Rock variant. In other words - the stronger the tempo decks are, the stronger Knight of the Reliquary decks become.

For anyone wanting Missdirection effect - try out Divert

Koby
11-08-2011, 01:38 AM
If someone wants to answer Tempo decks he should just pick up either Bant, GW Maverick (with or without Punishing Fire combo) or a Rock variant. In other words - the stronger the tempo decks are, the stronger Knight of the Reliquary decks become.

For anyone wanting Missdirection effect - try out Divert

I advocate playing with Fires/Grove combo. It's a really good way to keep Delvers from getting out of hand.

JJ_JKidd
11-08-2011, 04:12 AM
My list is pretty standard:

4 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember

SB:
2 Gilded Drake
3 Submerge
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Firespout
3 Surgical Extraction

The sideboard is largely set up to hate on Maverick and other KotR decks, which are some of this this deck's most difficult matchups.

Why the lack of Snapcasters?

kues
11-08-2011, 04:53 AM
Becauase spancasters suck on this deck

berry
11-08-2011, 05:25 AM
Very constructive.

JJ_JKidd
11-08-2011, 05:50 AM
Becauase spancasters suck on this deck

Okay. So that explains why SCG lists have them :eek:

I am the brainwasher
11-08-2011, 07:30 AM
I think the major difference between the various CAN Thresh variants out there at the moment is in genral based upon geographical/local metagames. The differences of the european/american meta and the number of events (plus the number of competitors in those) is huge and those trends are responsible for the now somewhat normal "design-fetish" in a deck that long has been considered as having only 2-3 flexible slots in it.
I saw a lot of players putting much energy and effort into discussions wether or not Snapcaster should(nt) be run, if Mongeese could still do the job, if its a viable Strategy at all if your meta is like 25% GW(x)-Maverick, whats the best thing in an open meta or if Delver really is the enlightment it seems to be.
All those questions are fine and are also responsible for a slight progress in developing the deck further in general, but at the same time I recognized a lot of players became stubborn and made statements about decisions XY is always the correct call, regardless of what your meta looks like, whats your playstyle and especially that all other thoughts and suggestions about the deck are nonsense and pearls before swine. At some points I have the strange feeling that some players minds had become as tight as former decklists of Canadian Threshold were.
You often hear "arguments" like: "If it is that bad, why did the deck placed well at SCG?"
or "There is a good reason why the deck always played 8-9 creatures, had those sb-plans/choices.".
So whats up with that? All those arguments are worth nothing. Magic isnt what it is right now (not that I like ever single aspect of it though) because the community contains just naysayers. Creating new decks and strategies is the bevefit from trying out new things, making decisions at the right time and not beeing afraid to loose with decks that are based upon your own thoughts and visions.
The whole reason why I write that stuff is that I would really apprecieate it, if the whole discussion here would become a bit more productive, and that this stupid fighting over single card-choices would go into a directuion that has at least some more facts than "Dont play the card. Its bad. Really. Trust me."
Seeing the church of the Holy Mongoose fighting against the heretic Mages of Snapcast bores me to death to be honest.

berry
11-08-2011, 09:51 AM
100% second your post - people need to explain their thoughts more, generally, and not just throw them around as common facts.

A friend of mine ran in the same 48 (i think)-man tour that another swede posted about on the next level thresh-thread, he ran what he calls BoltCaster which is "basically" the Delver/Goyf/Snap setup but with 4 Chain Lightning over 4 Stifle, and a few less Wastelands.

I think that versions success (in his hands, in his meta) says alot about the versatility of the Snapcaster... And this is why I am currently running him in basically all builds, be them CB/Top or tempo, etc...

ivanpei
11-08-2011, 10:09 AM
When playing the mirror, it really depends on your board to help tilt it in your favor. I'd start by playing more Pyroblasts (If you aren't playing 3-4 already) and Grims in the board (If they arent main already). I won't board in Surgicals. As much as they help against opposing Snapcasters, your opponent still get a 2/1 Dude. He will still kick your teeth in when backed up by counters and removal. Play smart, save your stifles. If your opponent obviously has no mana problems, don't stifle fetches blindly. Save them for Snapcaster Triggers or when they use it to Shuffle for brainstorm.

Or if you have access to other decks, I'd just play GW Maverick. Its Stable manabase and huge dudes just crushes RUG tempo. I like seeing RUG players shit bricks when I stick a KOTR.

Theonlyone
11-09-2011, 11:00 PM
Hello, I'm playing following list :
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [M12] Grim Lavamancer
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [CMD] Fire/Ice
2 [NPH] Dismember
4 [CMD] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [M11] Lightning Bolt
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [M12] Ponder
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [NE] Submerge
SB: 1 [TS] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [5E] Pyroblast

I'd like advices to beat decks in my metagame such as maverick, bant (gp version), BUG, Stoneblade.deck and burn. I am not very experimented with the deck, I tested it for the first time 2 weeks ago, that's why I am looking for advices.
The presence of grim MD and EE in the board can be explained with the presence of the other decks of my metagame (aggro-decks such as zoo, merfolk, the gate, goblins...)

Henrik
11-10-2011, 04:57 AM
Or if you have access to other decks, I'd just play GW Maverick. Its Stable manabase and huge dudes just crushes RUG tempo. I like seeing RUG players shit bricks when I stick a KOTR.

I played against Maverick in 3 rounds in GP Amsterdam, and I won them all. I expected the matchup to be much harder, but really, it isn't. 100% focus on disrupting mana goes a long way to never actually see a Knight in play, and when he comes, he can largely be ignored. And with 100%, i mean 100%. Hell, I FoWed Noble hierarch twice, and a couple of turns later Delver had completed the race.

EDIT: I lost every game 1 though. My boarding for g2 and g3 in every round was -4 spell snare + 4 submerge. For the post-board games i was on draw, also did -2 daze (1 left for show) and 2 pyroclasm.

berry
11-10-2011, 12:16 PM
That sounds like one off the beaten track-sideboard, care to share?

defector
11-10-2011, 12:58 PM
I like your analysis on G/W Mav. Complete mana denial and ride one or two beats. I agree -4 Spell Snare for +4 submerge. I've also been boarding out Daze, usually 2 copies, for Surgical Extraction in an effort to get lucky and neuter out Knights entirely. Thats more iffy, but definitely -4 snare/+4 Submerge.

rancOr_
11-10-2011, 01:10 PM
As always the case vs maverick a resolved grim lavamancer almost takes care of their entire deck. So it depends on the build ur playing too. But it sure aint a bad MU, u just need to focus some and counter the spells that actually care.. After sideboard it def. shouldnt be too hard. Im playing NLT(not that different) and its an easy matchup..

Nordvoll
11-10-2011, 01:23 PM
GW Maverick is not that bad.
GWR for punishing fire is another story.

mchainmail
11-10-2011, 03:13 PM
I played against Maverick in 3 rounds in GP Amsterdam, and I won them all. I expected the matchup to be much harder, but really, it isn't. 100% focus on disrupting mana goes a long way to never actually see a Knight in play, and when he comes, he can largely be ignored. And with 100%, i mean 100%. Hell, I FoWed Noble hierarch twice, and a couple of turns later Delver had completed the race.

EDIT: I lost every game 1 though. My boarding for g2 and g3 in every round was -4 spell snare + 4 submerge. For the post-board games i was on draw, also did -2 daze (1 left for show) and 2 pyroclasm.

Pyroclasm over Rough // Tumble?

Henrik
11-10-2011, 04:30 PM
Berry:
I don't understand "beaten track" record. Do you mean it's been used before in the golden days?
If so, yeah sure, it's nothing out of the ordinary. I've been playing basically the same SB since 2009, it's all you need =)
4 submerge
4 pyrobast/REB
2 pyroclasm
2 spell pierce
2 krosan grip
1 ancient grudge

And to that I play a mongoose version, with 3 daze, 2 dismember and 1 fire/ice. 4 of everything else.

Mcchainmail:
Yeah, at the time of the GP I hade never heard of the rough/tumble-idea, but now that I have, I support them over pyroclasm.

I am the brainwasher
11-10-2011, 04:41 PM
I can see the thought behind Rough/Tumble but isnt Pyroclasm against Maverick with Birds, Aven Mindcensor and Merfolks Kira just so much better?
I mean, other Tribal/Aggro decks are kinda hard to find atm anyway and I still do like siding in Clasm in the mirror on the draw depending on the opponents build, so it also couldnt touch opposing delvers.
I like the fact that you are able to play very aggressive with your Delvers due to having R/T but the downsides kinda neuters it at first glance for me. Maybe someone who tested it could explain the upsides which are common for its use in front of Clasm and tell how the different MU's play out differently with the concerns I mentioned.
Thx in advance!

Seb
11-13-2011, 04:49 PM
Won a small tournament today with ze Thresh. My list was the following :

4 Delver
4 Mongoose
4 Goyf

4 FoW
4 Snare
4 Daze
4 Bolt
2 Dismember
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

7 Fetches
3 Volcanic
4 Tropical
4 Wasteland

The deck was insane, but Mongoose really underperformed. I don't think Snapcaster is a good replacement on 18 lands. Grim seems a little better, but I'm still underwhelmed. Any other 1 drop creature we're forgetting?

landwalker000
11-13-2011, 05:06 PM
Here's my list that I have been doing well with. The only real difference in my deck is the added factories. The reason behind them was I wanted more creatures and lands, they just happened to be both. They also help with making snappy a bit more playable.

4 Delver
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Goyf

3 FoW
3 Snare
4 Daze
4 Bolt
2 Dismember
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

6 Fetches
3 Volcanic
4 Tropical
4 Wasteland
1 Island
2 Mishra Factory

militiaman89
11-14-2011, 01:17 AM
i just won a local tourny about a week ago and lent my deck to play to a friend today when iwas at work and he x-0ed with it, the deck is great and nimble mongoose has been the amazing every game especially in the mirror they just cant win if they cant resolve a goyf, i have grim in board for the aggro matchups but ive been happy taking out grim for nimble ive had no problems with him and he always becomes a 3/3 in no time

berry
11-14-2011, 11:17 AM
Snapcaster on 18 mana is fine. It's the top of your curve, remember that - and you'll use him shitloads.

I raced manaless dredge with T1 Delver, T2 Bolt, Bolt, T3 Snapcaster + Bolt or something like that. BoltCaster is ridicilously underrated by some people.

Mr. Safety
11-14-2011, 11:20 AM
Won a small tournament today with ze Thresh. My list was the following :

4 Delver
4 Mongoose
4 Goyf

4 FoW
4 Snare
4 Daze
4 Bolt
2 Dismember
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

7 Fetches
3 Volcanic
4 Tropical
4 Wasteland

The deck was insane, but Mongoose really underperformed. I don't think Snapcaster is a good replacement on 18 lands. Grim seems a little better, but I'm still underwhelmed. Any other 1 drop creature we're forgetting?

Phyrexian Dreadnought

reev_
11-16-2011, 05:30 PM
I'm trying this list:

4 Wasteland
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island


3 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle U
2 Fire/Ice
1 Dismember

And im ignoring completely grave in my sb.

ps: I really hate dismember. I'd runned 2, then 1, and now considering swat to anything (3rd fire/ice, 1 river, 4rd mongoose, 1 lavamancer. I really don't know yet).

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
11-16-2011, 07:16 PM
Phyrexian Dreadnought

A one drop that costs this deck 1U?

Mizeri
11-16-2011, 09:28 PM
And snapcaster costs at least 3.. I like the dreadnaught idea, i've been testing it for about a month now. list looks like...

4 Volc island
4 wasteland
1 island
1 mountain
4 misty rainforest
4 wooded foothills

4 delver
4 lavamancer
3 dreadnaught

4 fow
4 daze
4 spell snare
4 l. bolt
2 dismember
4 stifle
1 trickbind

4 brainstorm
4 ponder

I like how it makes dead stifles win the game. Any opinions?

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
11-16-2011, 10:57 PM
Snapcaster costs 2. Period.

To function as anything except terrible Dredge hate, Dreadnought costs 2.

Dead Stifles will pitch to Force of Will, but will typically have a function during the game. Rarely is it a dead card.

It stops everything with a colon, even cancer.

If you plan on running the Dreadnought plan, I'd cut Trickbind because it's too clunky.

atropos
11-17-2011, 05:11 AM
What have you guys found to be the major differences in playing styles between the lists with Nimble Mongoose and those with Snapcaster Mage instead? What are the pros and cons of each?

berry
11-17-2011, 06:59 AM
I haven't played the Mongoose version myself but it seems to be kind of meta-dependent. I know some decks have a problem with Mongoose but the incredible consistency of Snappy is ridicilous, doesn't matter if I need that Spell Snare back for a Goyf, or a bolt for the last damage, Snappy does it all.

Also, yay, I'm playing a deck to beat.

reev_
11-17-2011, 08:01 AM
Well, Snapcaster isn't a good card for our early game, but is a fantastic mid solution one.
Mongoose is a hard beater whos look needed for Canadian. Lavamancer, Punishing fire, Bolts, and another hates kill every Delver, Snapcaster and Goyf you control. I'm playing Mongoose and i'm happy with their bites.

Peruzo
11-17-2011, 09:35 AM
well, snapcaster isn't a good card for our early game, but is a fantastic mid solution one.
mongoose is a hard beater whos look needed for canadian. lavamancer, punishing fire, bolts, and another hates kill every delver, snapcaster and goyf you control. I'm playing mongoose and i'm happy with their bites.

I agree with that, I don't see why no play both, cutting a mongoose and maybe a daze to play 2 snapcasters...

Justin
11-17-2011, 10:01 AM
I really don't like the idea of running more than 12 creatures in this deck. More creatures means fewer instants/sorceries, which weakens Delver and Snapcaster. Plus, the deck doesn't need that many win conditions. The older Tempo Thresh decks only ran eight creatures and did pretty well with that.

Daze is one of the last spells that I would cut. Arguably, there's not a better deck suited to play Daze than Tempo Thresh. With so many one-drops, it doesn't suffer much from the drawback and it desperately needs access to free counters to prevent from falling behind early.

berry
11-17-2011, 12:01 PM
Sure, when people start adapting to Thresh (we only play 8 real threats in the snappylist, although BoltCaster is helluva reach, people give it to little credit) 4 more unplowable threats looks great, but I don't see why anyone would argue that it's needed now - the Snapcasters just do more as long as you can ride to victories with Delver/Goyf only.

In the future, when people adapt, I'll probably go 3 Mongoose 2 Snappy and cut either a Daze or a Snare.

Said-In-Contest
11-18-2011, 10:24 AM
I would never cut neither the 4th Daze or the 4th snare.
The first one is one of the rapresentative cards of the deck and you would like to have one of them in your first hano quite always!
On the other hand, snare is complitely broken these days: it counters most of the cards we will have trouble to handle, like goyf, tourach and stoneforge!
That said, I don't understand why someone would like to run snapcaster in here. How many times do you have three mana open without anything better to do? It's not so easy to have 3 mana in here with all the wastelands and stifle which are around in this meta.
Also, how many time do you have to mulligan because of snapcaster? I mean: 6 good cards+nimble mongoose= fantastic hand=keep. Same 6 cards+snapcaster mage =shitty hand = mulligan. Why? Well this deck needs to create tempo (we all know I hope) AND ALSO make preassure. It's useless to slow down the opponent having us doing nothing with the tempo created this way! So a snapcaster, how can be good only in mid-late game, is too slow for this deck. Nothing else. He is an insane creature, generally speaking, but in here he is a 2/1 flash body too slow for been a threat!
Moreover, there is no reason to play more than 11/12 creatures: I'm playing with just 4 delver, 4 tarmo, 3 mongoose and I have all I need. The 4th mongoose would be great maybe, but there's no room for another creature without cutting something which is too better then them!
IMHO if we run 4 delver, 4 tarmo, 4 snapcaster we would have 8 creatures (so 2/3 or the total) which die under every removal in the format. You cannot even dare to handle zoo or red based decks in general without counting that that way you will suffer more even the mirror match! I prefer a 1/1 body who turns into a 3/3 in a wile with shroud, that a 2/1 who will die because my opponent just look at it!
Mongoose, against lots of decks like control and aggro control decks just come into the battlefield and there it stays utill the end of the match. It seems me soething that no other creature by know can do!
Definitively it seems to have no pros to run such a creature in this deck!
I would like to end my reply saying this: I know that on SCGs decklists all the players run 4 Snapcaster in their deck, but it's not a good choice. I'm from Italy, and no one in here agrees with the choice of that creature in this deck for all the reason I've told you before.
If you have differet feelings regarding Snapcaster, please tell me! I would like to know also the opposit opinion!

Koplinchen
11-18-2011, 05:45 PM
I havent played snappy - it seems to be not enough lands there to play him consistantly
with only 18 lands (and some will get wasted.)
I have three mongoose in my list and they were amazing. Its certainly not a beater on round one. But it ownes control matchups absolutely. Many games I have won with my opp. holding two three kill spells/submerges which were not good enough. They can block and they hit hard.
All you need is to draw two lands ALL game.
I would definetly give them a try.

berry
11-18-2011, 08:00 PM
Have you even played with the snapcasters? You still run LANDS, and you WILL have 3 in play quite often - but I guess your meta must be very different from Sweden/US.

But don't dismiss something and say "this is not a good choice" by default from what you think or others say, without actually playing it yourself.

Dark Ritual
11-19-2011, 10:59 PM
The reason snapcaster is bad in a deck sporting 14 real lands is 2 fold. One, opposing wastelands make snapcaster a 2/1 flash for 1U and that isn't at all impressive. Two, he encourages you to not use your own wastelands to wreak havoc on their manabase. Snapcaster is literally only a lategame card in this deck and that isn't what this deck is trying to do. It's about beating up the opponents manabase, countering some spells, and smashing face with a mongoose or goyf or whatever.

Adan
11-20-2011, 03:37 PM
Have you even played with the snapcasters? You still run LANDS, and you WILL have 3 in play quite often - but I guess your meta must be very different from Sweden/US.

If you have more than 3 lands out, you will have done something wrong.


But don't dismiss something and say "this is not a good choice" by default from what you think or others say, without actually playing it yourself.

Well, it is a littlebit obvious that Snapcaster Mage is actually a quite manaintensive card. And his body is also not very convincing for Canadian Thresh on compairison to shrouded or flying Wild Nacatls.

Ah, and on the other side, I wish people would not "Did someone already tested this with Snapcaster Mage?" in EVERY fcuking [noncombo-/nonreanimator-Deck with Blue]-Thread.

frenchy-man
11-20-2011, 05:02 PM
If you have more than 3 lands out, you will have done something wrong.



Well, it is a littlebit obvious that Snapcaster Mage is actually a quite manaintensive card. And his body is also not very convincing for Canadian Thresh on compairison to shrouded or flying Wild Nacatls.

Ah, and on the other side, I wish people would not "Did someone already tested this with Snapcaster Mage?" in EVERY fcuking [noncombo-/nonreanimator-Deck with Blue]-Thread.

Exactly. I would add that I did test snapcaster in a local tournament. I won the tournament but I was convinced that snappy was not for this deck and still got this feeling after the tournament (I played 3 of them md).

I'll post my current list soon, as it is the result of many tests from my own. I really think that the 11 creatures shell (with 4 delvers 4 tarmo) is the best. I played for weeks with grim md but now I play geese md et grim sb and it improved a lot of MUs. I also play 4 bolts and 2 chains lightning md. This is awesome. Canadian thresh is currently the best deck in the format.

reev_
11-20-2011, 10:18 PM
Chain lightning sounds good, could make this deck more tempo. But I don't think replace fire/ice is a nice choice. Before Delver, i'd tested 4 Bolt, 4 Fire/Ice, 3 Chain lightning (swap 1 ponder I think) in older version, and i did top4 with this list. I think until you have 4 fire/ice, add chain lightning is a mistake. The Ice's time walk is amazing in Canadian, and Fire is quite versatile (Mother of Runes, Noble Hierarchs, Delver, Lavamancer and these creatures played a lot these times).

berry
11-21-2011, 05:19 AM
Sigh.

Oh, and I mentioned my friends build with 4 Bolts 4 Chains 2 Fire/Ice earlier. But he plays Snapcaster (which seems obvious when your plan is to go to the face).

Forgot to mention: He cuts Stifle and plays less Wastelands, it's obviously a slightly different build.

frenchy-man
11-21-2011, 12:03 PM
My current list :

4 delver
4 tarmogoyf
3 moongoose

4 fow
4 daze
4 spell snare
1 spell pierce
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 bolt
2 chain lightning
4 stifle

4 wasteland
4 tropical island
4 volcanic island
6 fetches

SB :
3 grim lavamancer
3 reb
2 spell pierce
4 submerge
3 surgical extraction

I am very satisfied with my list. I dropped dismember because against good players it will hardly ever kills a knight. I does kill tarmo but so does spell snare. And from times to times the lifeloss is not irrelevant. I basically replaced them by 2 chain lightning. I also have 4 submerge to deal with kotr or tarmogoyfs.
I also removed the fire/ice (playing 1 spell pierce more and one more spell snare than before). First the blue cards count remain unchanged, with is important considering that the deck has 4 fow. Then fire/ice is bad and not effective when one has to face a sfm t2 on the draw backed with a daze (or bob) or others turn one. And sometimes the deck cannot pay two manas.

In SB I have 3 grim. There's a real need to play them somewhere in the 75. It is very good against key-creatures based strategy (bob, sfm, delver, mother of runes) and what's more it improves a lot the aggro MUs.

Zilla
11-21-2011, 02:16 PM
In SB I have 3 grim. There's a real need to play them somewhere in the 75. It is very good against key-creatures based strategy (bob, sfm, delver, mother of runes) and what's more it improves a lot the aggro MUs.
What do you typically side out for them in the aggro matchups? My first instinct would be to side out Mongoose because of their terrible synergy with Lavamancer, but there's also something to be said for a high threat density in those matchups.

frenchy-man
11-21-2011, 02:30 PM
What do you typically side out for them in the aggro matchups? My first instinct would be to side out Mongoose because of their terrible synergy with Lavamancer, but there's also something to be said for a high threat density in those matchups.

It depends on the MU but generally vs aggro I deside the fows (there's nothing you want to 2 for one, except kotr but submerge already owns it) to bring in the submergesz (vs green.decks), I side out the spell pierce and two geese to bring in the three grims.
But in some MUs (like Sommen's bant or landstill UW) that play swords, more paths in sideboard, spell snares, and key-creatures like stoneforge mystic or vendilion clique, I board out 3 tarmogoyf to bring in grim. The reason is that playing tarmogoyf will involve a loss of tempo, as their removals/counters cost 1 mana whereas tarmogoyf costs 2. Grim will also take a path/sword but then you don't lose any tempo. If it remains on the ground it won't be a great beater but cut the sfm or vendilion-beatdown plans. I also like to blank opposite spell snares, making them useless :).
In other aggro MUs like merfolk, stifle in not needed (neither is goose) so I sided them out for my rebs, grims and one more spell pierce.

edit : do not hesitate to edit my post and correct my posts if I make too many mistakes ;)

spartan117
11-21-2011, 03:16 PM
Yesterday I won a 130 people tournament with the same list I've been playing with success after Mental Misstep's ban.

Here's the decklist for reference:


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 nimble Mongoose
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire/Ice
2 Dismember
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Spell pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Submerge
2 Mind Harness
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ancient Grudge


I played against:

BW stoneforge: 2-1
GW maverick: 0-2
GW maverick: 1-1
Canadian: 2-1 (it was a tie but he gracely chose to give me the win)
GW maverick: 2-1
Canadian: 2-1
GW maverick: 2-1
UB reanimator: 2-1

6-1-1

Top8
Big Zoo: 2-0

Top4
UB dreadstill: 2-1

Top2
Win by drop against RUG Tempo


The deck ran smoothly all day long, nothing particular to say except from this: GW maverick is sooooooooo boring... and sees too much play as well.
I wouldn't change a single card in the previous list, to me it's perfectly set to win against the actual tiers.

Give it a try :wink:

reev_
11-21-2011, 03:35 PM
Yesterday I won a 130 people tournament with the same list I've been playing with success after Mental Misstep's ban.

Here's the decklist for reference:


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 nimble Mongoose
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire/Ice
2 Dismember
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Spell pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Submerge
2 Mind Harness
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ancient Grudge


I played against:

BW stoneforge: 2-1
GW maverick: 0-2
GW maverick: 1-1
Canadian: 2-1 (it was a tie but he gracely chose to give me the win)
GW maverick: 2-1
Canadian: 2-1
GW maverick: 2-1
UB reanimator: 2-1

6-1-1

Top8
Big Zoo: 2-0

Top4
UB dreadstill: 2-1

Top2
Win by drop against RUG Tempo


The deck ran smoothly all day long, nothing particular to say except from this: GW maverick is sooooooooo boring... and sees too much play as well.
I wouldn't change a single card in the previous list, to me it's perfectly set to win against the actual tiers.

Give it a try :wink:

First, gratz!
My md build plays 1 dismember and 4 snare.
My sb is quite different. Also, i'm using 3 Tropical Island and 1 Breeding Pool because my metta has a LOT of canadian. Then this a form to live after Surgical Extraction.

berry
11-22-2011, 05:23 AM
@frenchy-man: An UW Landstill or Stoneblade player should be siding out his Spell Snares against you...

spartan117: Care to share your SB plan vs GW Maverick?

spartan117
11-22-2011, 07:08 AM
@berry: My usual sideboarding plan vs maverick is

-2 force -2 daze -1 stifle -3 mongoose -1 ponder
+3 submerge +2 mind harness +2 spell pierce +1 EE +1 grudge


The reasoning is that vs maverick you want to win as fast as possible before they can overrun you. Mongoose can't put up a real clock and they have too many ways to deal with it or simply stall with a 1/1 for 3/4 turns, which are enough for them to make their plays daze/manascrew-proof. Delver is the real deal when you need a fast evasive clock, which is exactly what you need to capitalize the tempo gain.
You might argue that it should be more correct to change the amount of daze/force/stifle depending on wether you're OTP or OTD, but I can assure you that after having tried different configurations, I ended up with the previous one being the best in both cases.
Hope this helps :smile:

Said-In-Contest
11-22-2011, 12:59 PM
@berry: My usual sideboarding plan vs maverick is

-2 force -2 daze -1 stifle -3 mongoose -1 ponder
+3 submerge +2 mind harness +2 spell pierce +1 EE +1 grudge


The reasoning is that vs maverick you want to win as fast as possible before they can overrun you. Mongoose can't put up a real clock and they have too many ways to deal with it or simply stall with a 1/1 for 3/4 turns, which are enough for them to make their plays daze/manascrew-proof. Delver is the real deal when you need a fast evasive clock, which is exactly what you need to capitalize the tempo gain.
You might argue that it should be more correct to change the amount of daze/force/stifle depending on wether you're OTP or OTD, but I can assure you that after having tried different configurations, I ended up with the previous one being the best in both cases.
Hope this helps :smile:

I like you sideboard plan vs marerick, and I like your motivations too.
Just a question: why do you prefer to board out 2 fow and a ponder/stifle instead of boarding out 2 or 3 spell snare? I don't like snare too much vs maverick, you do? The only important target is Stoneforge (they don't run tarmo usually, and some other cc2 are the qasali, not that great). So why do you "can assure you that after having tried different configurations, I ended up with the previous one being the best in both cases"? Just would like to know because I'm curious of your explanation!

spartan117
11-22-2011, 01:43 PM
@said in contest: I prefer to keep in spell snare against GW maverick because it's a cheap hardcounter which doesn't settle us a turn back on mana or causes card disadvantage. Relevant targets other than stoneforger are scavenging ooze (must counter), scryb ranger (which can block delver all day long and we can kill it only with bolt-fire/ice), qasali pridemage (which makes mind harness a dead card) and often thorn of ametist post side. Also jitte makes every creature the draw a mustcounter/kill. Even zenith paid 1G is worth countering because of our manadenial plan.

P.S.: se hai un account su tipo1 possiamo parlare lì se preferisci, il mio nick è lo stesso :smile:

Said-In-Contest
11-22-2011, 02:13 PM
@said in contest: I prefer to keep in spell snare against GW maverick because it's a cheap hardcounter which doesn't settle us a turn back on mana or causes card disadvantage. Relevant targets other than stoneforger are scavenging ooze (must counter), scryb ranger (which can block delver all day long and we can kill it only with bolt-fire/ice), qasali pridemage (which makes mind harness a dead card) and often thorn of ametist post side. Also jitte makes every creature the draw a mustcounter/kill. Even zenith paid 1G is worth countering because of our manadenial plan.

P.S.: se hai un account su tipo1 possiamo parlare lì se preferisci, il mio nick è lo stesso :smile:

Si si ho un account su tipo1...sono Richard Lex e sto partecipando alla discussione omonima sul Canadian Thresh.
Anyway I reply to this in english...just to "finish": I have think about it and I realized you are right. Also Sylvan Library would end the game if it enters the battlefield!

Ci sentiamo su tipo1!

atropos
11-22-2011, 03:38 PM
Si si ho un account su tipo1...sono Richard Lex e sto partecipando alla discussione omonima sul Canadian Thresh.
Anyway I reply to this in english...just to "finish": I have think about it and I realized you are right. Also Sylvan Library would end the game if it enters the battlefield!

Ci sentiamo su tipo1!

Do you guys play in Bologna?

Said-In-Contest
11-22-2011, 03:55 PM
Do you guys play in Bologna?

Ah ah ah! All italians in here! I'm sorry but I'm from Vicenza and for now, I've never had the chance to play in Bologna.
Anyway Spartan 117 is a great player...maybe he travels more than me! But I don't know where he's from...

I am the brainwasher
11-22-2011, 06:52 PM
@Spartan117:

Did you miss a Pyroclasm effect in the tourney?
That would explain your boarding plan of not switching a single Spell Snare against Maverick most definetly. I was just wondering if you simply hadnt the space to play Clasm, Rough/Tumble or Firespout or if its just based upon your playstyle and the lack of Merfolk and Goblins in the european Meta (also other random Aggro-decks like Affinity and Stuff).
I see Pyroclams as not as important when you play with Delver, because you can race very effectiveley without those, but I am still interested. I for myself dont want to play Pyroclasm nor Firespout because of their disadvantages of costing too much mana or grilling precious Delvers from time to time when they are in need. Rough/Tumble on the other hand doesnt handle Kira, BoP, Mindcensor/Scryb Ranger. So nothing is the real deal here anyway IMO.
Would be nice if you could decribe your point of view about that in general and how the MU changed from playing without Delver.
Thanks in advance and congratz on your finish!

GPW
11-23-2011, 07:08 AM
Spartan Could you write here sideboardin guide for beginners?
It will be very helpful i just started playing this deck so it will be good for me.
Thx

PhanTom_lt
11-23-2011, 11:54 AM
2 of these made top4 at the Worlds Legacy Challenge. I played a rather standard version, moving the LftL to the board and cutting the Temporal Spring entirely.

defector
11-23-2011, 12:29 PM
I cut the Temporal Spring and LFTL as well. This is my current list:

Canadian Threshold-Current List-

Mana-18-
Wasteland X4
Volcanic Island X4
Tropical Island X4
Misty Rainforest X3
Scalding Tarn X3

Creatures-12-
Delver of Secrets X4
Tarmogoyf X4
Nimble Mongoose X4

Blue-24-
Force of Will X4
Daze X4
Spell Snare X4
Stifle X4
Brainstorm X4
Ponder X4

Red-4-
Lightning Bolt X4

Gold-2-
Fire/Ice X2

Sidebaord-15-
Surgical Extraction X4
Submerge X3
Firespout X3
Red Elemental Blast X3
Spell Pierce X2

A few things that should be explained. I think with delver you need 30 sorc/instant. I like 12 crreatures, I don't dig for them as much and always have one when I need one. I cut snapcaster. I love him and want to play him, but feel that if you really like snapcaster then run BUG or TA as they have better use for him inside the tempo strategy. The fire/ice slots could easily be two more spell pierce or two dismember, maybe even two sylvan library. Thats really your call, in my meta I am better with fire/ice because I need max utility and I can't afford the life loss. Regardless, that's a very flexible slot. The rest seems pretty solid, some people go to 11 creatures, that's fine, some add a little more burn, that's fine too.

Sideboard:
This deck boards like a pro.

Surgical Extraction: I feel dredge is really bad for us so I have the full dedication of surgicals. Maybe thats just my bad luck but dredge seems like 90/10 game 1 vs me. This is the only place I really miss the snapcasters.

Firespout: Game 1 vs zoo is tough, games 2 and 3 easy. I like the spout for its pure utility, it gets elves, merfolk, goblins, nacatl. You should only need to get one off a game to win so three seems fine. One thing, use blue mana on it! Save your delvers, I gave a game away once playing like a chode and tapping for green:(

Submerge: This is my G/W and Bant plan for stupid KOTR. Usually all three and all three spouts go in vs those decks, wipe out Heirarch, Arbors, Birds, bounce KOTR, and the occasional big ooze. This can swap with gilded drake, chinas, lots of choices here, I like submerge because if they go after my mana I need my spells cheap, and free is pretty close to cheap:)

Red Elemental Blast: U/W Control, pretty self explanatory, also if you face any Spiral Tide its a nice card to have, and spot removal vs the folk.

Spell Pierce: A nice extra vs control and combo.

Usually the deck tells you which cards are dead and what to move. Anyway, this is it for now, this deck has so many flexible tools, we'll see how
long it lasts:)

I am the brainwasher
11-23-2011, 01:55 PM
2 of these made top4 at the Worlds Legacy Challenge. I played a rather standard version, moving the LftL to the board and cutting the Temporal Spring entirely.

What the buck is this referred to?
Could you get a bit more into detail, I would really apprecieate that.
While were at it, does anybody have a link to the Top-decklists from the Worlds Legacy Challenge?

PhanTom_lt
11-23-2011, 03:05 PM
Worlds at San Francisco had a Legacy side event with Legends and a Urza's block sealed boxes for top4 prizes, 92 players entered.
Top2: RUG Tempo and Merfolk
3-4: RUG Tempo (me) and Bant (Alex Bertoncini)
Top8: Cephalid Breakfast, ANT, Merfolk and something else.

I don't think there will be any decklists.

The hardest part was how to sideboard for the mirror, I opted to cut 4 FoWs, 2 Dismembers, 3 Dazes and 2 Snapcasters for 3 Surgicals, 2 Submerge, 2 Grim Lavamancer, 3 Pyroblast, 1 LftL.

berry
11-23-2011, 04:45 PM
I basically played Defectors list today, but -1 Mongoose, -1 Spell snare +2 Snapcaster Mage, and this board:

3 surgical
3 submerge
2 krosan grip
1 EE
3 spell pierce
3 REB

1. I really liked Mongoose, but still like having Snappy on the top of the curve, it has been useful to me (double-bolt & double-surgical both played out today for great value) - but I guess this is personal preference.

2. If you wan't an answer to Zoo, Folk, etc - try EE, it's amazing because of it's utility. Won a game vs Deadguy Ale by topdecking EE blowing it on 0 for Batterskull-token and attacking for lethal, it also gets the actual swords, CBs, etc, etc...

3. Phantom_It: I really like your boarding plan, except I don't have Grims since I play Mongoose - but I do about the same with +3 surgical +2 submerge +3 pyro +2 spell pierce or something like that - and generally cut FoW, Daze and then optional depending on play/draw etc.

Went 3-1 and only lost to the mirror with a huuugely stupid misplay, sadly I avoided our only GW Maverick player (who went 4-0 for the 4th week in a row...), would really have liked to feel that MU.

I am the brainwasher
11-23-2011, 07:12 PM
Worlds at San Francisco had a Legacy side event with Legends and a Urza's block sealed boxes for top4 prizes, 92 players entered.
Top2: RUG Tempo and Merfolk
3-4: RUG Tempo (me) and Bant (Alex Bertoncini)
Top8: Cephalid Breakfast, ANT, Merfolk and something else.

I don't think there will be any decklists.

The hardest part was how to sideboard for the mirror, I opted to cut 4 FoWs, 2 Dismembers, 3 Dazes and 2 Snapcasters for 3 Surgicals, 2 Submerge, 2 Grim Lavamancer, 3 Pyroblast, 1 LftL.

Thx for the info!
Which list did you played, the "US" list with Snapcasters and Grim as a sideboard option or also with Mongeese, switching their places with Mancers from time to time?
I am pretty amazed how that Merfolk player fought his way to the top. Not a bad job at all respecting the rest of the field that gone well.
Would be nice to hear something more from your experience @worlds, greetings.

defector
11-23-2011, 11:17 PM
@Berry: It's a great list isn't it? I love this deck:) I wish I could take credit for it:) My version is just old school lists modded for new tech. I have run 2 snaps as well, and I agree its damn good. Just not sure if its good enough. When snap tops out the curve in thresh are you in a win more situation? I don't know. I am going to play my config and see if I really miss snap and if so how to configure. Either way, i feel like we are both 90% correct. Just the final tweaks and tunes, anyway, good job and well done:)

straca3
11-24-2011, 08:35 AM
Worlds at San Francisco had a Legacy side event with Legends and a Urza's block sealed boxes for top4 prizes, 92 players entered.
Top2: RUG Tempo and Merfolk
3-4: RUG Tempo (me) and Bant (Alex Bertoncini)
Top8: Cephalid Breakfast, ANT, Merfolk and something else.

I don't think there will be any decklists.

The hardest part was how to sideboard for the mirror, I opted to cut 4 FoWs, 2 Dismembers, 3 Dazes and 2 Snapcasters for 3 Surgicals, 2 Submerge, 2 Grim Lavamancer, 3 Pyroblast, 1 LftL.



I dont like that plan much, Lavamancer was always useless in the mirror, because after board you have a lot of answers to Delver (REB, Bolts, Submerge), Snappy seems really week in the mirror with all those Stifles, Wastelands and Spell Snares, so they should side it out and it doesnt really help you against Goyf, if they play Mongoose (which they probably didnt in US), its even more awful. I was always happy at GP, when they play it against me. I dont like Surgicals either, because I feel that u cant screw great player with it (if he is careful with his duals etc). Also siding out Dismember seems really weak, it was always awesome against mirror for me, Daze is also great in the mirror, id cut max one of those and I like keeping at least 2 FoWs in.


I side like this (playing version with 4 Snares, 3 Gooses, 1 F/I) -1 Snare, -1 F/I, -2 Bolts, -2 FoW -1 Daze +2 Submerge, +2 Pyroblast (against Snappy build, if they keep them in, probably 3), +2 Divert, +1 Life from the Loam

ReinVos
11-24-2011, 01:58 PM
I've seen lists with varying numbers of duals and fetch. I'm curious if it's better to fuel our Mongeese/Lavamancers or is it better to be as Stifle proof as possible?

I'm playing a stock list with 11 creatures (mongoose main) and 18 land. I've chosen to play 7 fetches and 7 duals. I think Wooded Foothills is the best fetch to run in this deck. I'm running 4 Trops and 3 Volcanics. I'm just not sure if personal preference is the correct answer to my question.

I am the brainwasher
11-24-2011, 02:13 PM
Which Fetch/Dual/Basic-Island is correct is depending on individual lists. At the moment I am not convinced that playing anything less than 8 non fetchable lands is correct in Threshold.

In general: Why does anyone think playing Wooded Foothills is the best choice?
Flavourwise it is the most awesome fetch, I agree, but that directly includes that you play no basic Island, which is way more important not to show to an experienced opponent than trying to trick him with letting an Wooded Foothills open, which doesnt work at all.
You want to beat the good players, not the bad ones, so use every advantage that might occur through those small decisions regarding the mana-base.

ReinVos
11-24-2011, 03:03 PM
Makes sense. Although playing a basic Island in this deck doesn't appeal to me. I curve out at two and I want to be able to cast all my spells with two lands in play. If I were to play with a couple of Snapcasters I'd definitely play Tarns, Misties and a basic Island. But then having three lands in play is actually a good thing.

Wooded Foothills does give away information but I can't really see how this influences the dynamics of the game. Maybe Stoneblade players can confidently board in their Paths or even consider switching around with Plowshares. But they'll be looking to board in extra spot removal anyway.
I also believe that giving players respect by assuming they're strong players is a good thing. But sometimes it's simply better to make use of ''unsound'' tactics if you feel that more people are inclined to fall for it than people making you pay for your ''mistake''.

I could beat a player who walks into Stifle when I have a Foothills uncracked. The same player can beat me because of a good match-up or good draw. Giving less experienced players an opportunity to mess up is big. A good player might find a way to punish my greediness for easy wins but that doesn't matter. The advantages weigh much more in my opinion.

berry
11-24-2011, 03:48 PM
His point was not that you cannot fetch Island with your Foothills, but that letting your opponent know that makes it more possible for them to go all in on a mana-denial plan, I.E.

For reference: I run 8 fetch and 6 duals, no Grims, but Mongoose - might go 7/7, dunno.

@straca3: Why would you not board ut Dazes on the draw? Slow, slow, slow. I also see no reason to keep FoWs in in the mirror. I keep Spell Snares (I play 3 main) if I see Snappys, if only Goyfs i'll likely cut 1 but it's still really important to not let Goyf land. Also, you're saying Surgicals can be played around by "good players", but fact is T1 Waste into Surgical can be handled by counterspells, not skills - it's also not bad, if you get the chance, to do a quick Surgical on Goyfs.

You also seem to have a slightly different board than most of us, that might make stuff different for you, dunno.

People who play Grims: Thoughts? Worth it? I just don't see it as it is now... They can handle stuff, but where they do I'd still rather have the fast Mongoose.

spartan117
11-24-2011, 03:56 PM
@Spartan117:

Did you miss a Pyroclasm effect in the tourney?
That would explain your boarding plan of not switching a single Spell Snare against Maverick most definetly. I was just wondering if you simply hadnt the space to play Clasm, Rough/Tumble or Firespout or if its just based upon your playstyle and the lack of Merfolk and Goblins in the european Meta (also other random Aggro-decks like Affinity and Stuff).
I see Pyroclams as not as important when you play with Delver, because you can race very effectiveley without those, but I am still interested. I for myself dont want to play Pyroclasm nor Firespout because of their disadvantages of costing too much mana or grilling precious Delvers from time to time when they are in need. Rough/Tumble on the other hand doesnt handle Kira, BoP, Mindcensor/Scryb Ranger. So nothing is the real deal here anyway IMO.
Would be nice if you could decribe your point of view about that in general and how the MU changed from playing without Delver.
Thanks in advance and congratz on your finish!

You basically answered yourself :smile:
I actually thought about playing a pyroclasm effect, but both pyroclasm and rough/tumble had major downsides that moved me onto playing EE instead.
EE just ignores mother of the runes' ability to protect their treats from burn and is often a 2/3x1 in our favor (because of us siding out nimble mongoose).
Delver gave us the opportunity to actually race many decks with little to no removal (such as bant or maverick in this case specifically) simply by killing their blockers (scryb, mindcensor) and countering dangerous things (kotr, jitte, sylvan library). This lets us play our counters on just a few targets instead of pretty much everything the cast. Mongoose is sadly too slow to grow up to be that efficient in dealing fast damage.

I am the brainwasher
11-24-2011, 04:26 PM
Thanks for the answer!
Even if I was quite sure about that thing with clasms, it is nice to hear from other players what they do think about those topics.

In general:
I am kinda between 3 lists at the moment, one beeing hardcore classical Threshold (Yes, with Rushing River and 4 F/I. The cards are just amazing right now IMO), the other two are CAN with Delver and a mixture between NQG and Thresh.
As much as I see the benefits from Delver and Dismember, I just can tell from experience that nearly all MU's are fine without those or definetly winnable.
I am really not sold on that whole Delver thing, even if I see the advantages; pretty between the fronts currently... .