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Said-In-Contest
11-24-2011, 05:01 PM
@Spartan117: if it's not a problem for you, can you write down which is your standard sideboard plan vs the most common archetypes, writing down the ins and the outs? I think this will help the discussion to talk about some interesting decisions and their decisions.
I repeat, just if this is not a problem for you!

straca3
11-24-2011, 07:15 PM
@berry

I dont really think that the matchup is about speed, well some games might be, if some player has like 2 Delver, but ussualy its all about card advantage (so FoW is not that good, but u want some hard counters still), so I dont think the Daze is slow, its was always great in mirror for me, because your opponent plays only 18 lands. I understand that Daze is bad on draw in decks like Merfolks or Bant, but this deck cooperate on 2 lands (if u dont play Snappy) so slowing myself down a little bit isnt a big deal.

Like I wrote my sb plan include -1 Snare, because in my meta nobody plays Snapcasters and 4 is just too much if you have only 4 targets.

And with the Surgical thing, I almost never start in mirror with Dual, unless I have Delver or Stifle. Plus the odds for my opp having Wasteland + Surgical and me having dual in play on 1st turn are really low. Randomly Extracting Goyf is ok, but unless you hit the Goyf in the hand, its card disadvantage and the Goose + Delver can still kill you.


My sb is currently like this - 3 Pyroblast, 2 Lavamancer, 2 Divert, 3 Extraction (maybe I should replace these with Crypts not sure) 3 Submerges, 1 Loam, 1 Krosan Grip

berry
11-25-2011, 01:17 AM
@straca3: You bring in Pierce & REB, you keep Snare in, that's hard counters (basically, since it's not that usual to be able to pay for Pierce in the mirror). But since you're playing a Pierce-less SB I guess I can see your point. :)

@brainwasher: I won a game 1 against Bant this week that looked like this:

T1 Delver, he drops a land - I flip and are landless and passes - he plays a goyf, snare - I'm still landless, pass - stifle his waste on my volcanic, I think he BS'd into a plow or if he played another goyf, I dazed - still no land, pass (hit for 9 by now) - he wastes it and tries a plow, I FoW it - by now I have literally nothing but a flipped delver - he plays a goyf and pass - hit, 15 done - plow on delver, FoW'ed again, he scooped around here.

TLDR: Play Delver T1, flip T2, become wasted and manascrewed, win with flipped Delver and literally nothing else on board.

Lemnear
11-25-2011, 01:37 AM
What are you trying to say? You had enough mana for your threat, Daze, Snare and 2(!!) FoW for all his plays; Can't see any mana-screw or special acomplishment here, sorry. It worked out the way it's intended to.

berry
11-25-2011, 11:06 AM
@Lemnear: I had 1 Volcanic. And I'm fairly sure I didn't pay mana for those FoWs.

I'm not trying to talk about any mana-screw (although sitting on 0 lands is a screw of sorts) or "special accomplishment" (?). I'm trying to point out the strength of the Delver and the importance of the 1-drop.

straca3
11-25-2011, 11:17 AM
@Lemnear: I had 1 Volcanic. And I'm fairly sure I didn't pay mana for those FoWs.

I'm not trying to talk about any mana-screw (although sitting on 0 lands is a screw of sorts) or "special accomplishment" (?). I'm trying to point out the strength of the Delver and the importance of the 1-drop.


I guess people in this thread already know how absurd Delver is.

berry
11-25-2011, 11:59 AM
I am really not sold on that whole Delver thing, even if I see the advantages; pretty between the fronts currently... .

I guess people in this thread need the actual quote to not go bananas when they see something they can pounce on - my other post even started with "@brainwasher" since this was a reply to his comment (AS QUOTED ABOVE) about Delver.

sdematt
11-25-2011, 01:51 PM
So we've all come to the conclusion that a blue, flying Wild Nacatl is good? Awesome observations, guys. Now that the meeting of the mutual admiration club has ended, let's move on.

I'm just wondering, what cards are the worst for this deck to see? I've been playing this deck for a little while secretly, but I also want to know, what really hurts us, and how can I play around it?

-Matt

dsck
11-25-2011, 01:56 PM
So we've all come to the conclusion that a blue, flying Wild Nacatl is good? Awesome observations, guys. Now that the meeting of the mutual admiration club has ended, let's move on.

I'm just wondering, what cards are the worst for this deck to see? I've been playing this deck for a little while secretly, but I also want to know, what really hurts us, and how can I play around it?

-Matt

When I played this deck couple years back, vial and bant decks were annoying.

berry
11-25-2011, 03:45 PM
Again, my point was towards the one man who "didn't get it".

Knights are annoying, but I think Maverick is a harder battle than Bant. Hardly see any vial decks so cannot comment on that... But considering top tier decks I'm not sure either - how is our fish-matchup?

I am the brainwasher
11-25-2011, 05:08 PM
What really bothers Tempo-thresh is the lack of pressure in your starting hand.
If you can play the mana-denial/clear board, thats all for nothing if you are unable to dig for a beater, surprise surprise.
Besides that, draws from Combo-decks which include basics and more landdrops in general are pretty tough to beat against good players, even if Tempo has a decent MU against Combo in general.
Vial decks are Goblins and merfolk and against Merfolk the Vial is not that important because of a bazillion spotremoval, I see no real problem here, especially if you play a clasm in the board.
What breaks the deck the neck is wishi-washi playstyle. 100% focus or better do not play at all is pure truth outside drawing the nuts.
Most matchups are pretty even and wrong sideboarding and playstyle WILL cost you a ton of games at the higher tables. Each muppet can sling Stifles, but thats not winning games on its own... .
Thresh is not an easy task, even if some hands really break it down to Play Turn1 Delver, flip it and win (lack of removal from the opponent or truckload of counters for those).
The huge upside of that is, that after some time you can literally smell opposing misplays and kick them in the nuts so hard that they wont be able to get up again.
I have never played a color-combination outside of RUG (not just including Thresh, also NL Thresh and stuff) that punished players so damn hard for punting, let it be as small as it can be, on both sides of the table.

egosum
11-29-2011, 08:16 AM
Hi guys I' ve seen an UBR tempo deck that looks really interesting, it made top 8 in a 57 people tournament in Italy

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7176&iddeck=52088

What do you think?

I' ve been testing a version of it:

Main 60

4x Delver of Secrets
3x Tombstalker
2x Snapcaster Mage

2x Thoughtseize
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Stifle
3x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder

4x Lightning Bolt
3x Fire/Ice

4x Underground sea
3x Volcanic Island
1x Badlands
8x B/U/R Fetch
4x Wasteland

Side 15

2x Dispel
1x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroblast
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Extripate
3x Ghastly Demise
3x Persih
2x Thoughtseize

Going quite well so far.

Greetings,

Iņaki.-

spartan117
11-29-2011, 09:39 AM
@egosum:

the guy you're referring about is a friend of mine :smile:
We actually tested the deck quite a bit and it is very solid, but I totally agree with you about playing snapcaster, it's the real deal in this deck. Talking about discard spells I'm not that keen on playing hymn to tourach, kozilez inquisition is way better when your opponent won't ever reach 4 mana.

Anyway I won another tournament with the previous 75s, this time only 44 people.

2-0 reanimator
2-1 big zoo
2-1 hive mind
ID team portugal
1-2 elves (2x green trap always hitting emrakul)
2-1 elves (with vengevines)

2-0 belcher (with reb md)

2-1 canadian (picelli89)

Split in the final against ANT ubr.

berry
11-29-2011, 09:50 AM
Very threat-light list, whats the reasoning behind no Bobs in it?

spartan117
11-29-2011, 09:58 AM
Tombstalker? :wink:

Also, punishing fire isn't exatly your best friend... you want some of your treats not to die from burn spells.

Piceli89
11-29-2011, 10:05 AM
Inaki's list is too-discard heavy, in my opinion. You're playing a exported version of Team America that has problems to a resolved Knight of Reliquary. Sure, you have flyers to race it, but lately it also fetches Maze which foils Delver beats and stall the board- and we all know what happens to Tempo decks if things get slowed down.
Our friends' (me and spartan's) version at least had some form of GFTT and Dismember. The removal suite should see some tweaks to accomodate 1-2 black removals, probably trimming down the discard to 4 (you're also giving more value to the USea you're likely to fetch in the first turns to fire Hymn, getting the right colour immediately). I know Seize and Inquisition can be seen as a pre-emptive form of removal against those problematic creatures, but topdeck and Zenith happen.
I'd go -3 discard, +1 Ponder, +2 black removals (perhaps lowering Bolt to 3 if something else is needed).

berry
11-29-2011, 10:06 AM
Haha, well, yes, he is big and bad and works not so well with Bob.

My point is, is it worth it running 3 Tombas over 4 Bobs? I've been brewing Grixis too, but more Next Level so I'm not sure it belongs in this thread - maybe Bobs home is there, and Tomb here.

Is Punishing Fire that rampant, where you live? Neither of us RUG-players in my town, nor any of the GW players, play it.

EDIT, because of Piceli89s post:

Is black for a few pointy removals really the way to beat Knights? Discard seems like a more reasonable reason to go into black - Knights can be taken care of from out of the board.

borz
11-29-2011, 11:05 AM
Hi, I'm the guy who played that UBR tempo, in italy.

I chose to play stalker because it's the best win condition you can wish for against canadian UGR. By the way, confidant always gets snared (bolt and fire/ice are not that funny too).

Stalker is very difficult to handle for both canadian and gw maverick (if you can counter their StP), and Ugr decks in general.

Maverick is quite an easy MU. I played against it about 5 times in tournaments and I won every single game. Delver is the key to win these matches. If you opponent plays StP on it, than you simply play stalker and that's all. You can deal with Knights by using terminate, gftt, edict, daze etc.

I don't really like discard spells, they're not that good in the mid/late game and they don't fit very well the stifle/waste plan, where you need to stay as open on mana as you can.

egosum
11-29-2011, 04:55 PM
Well I played the list (side -2x Seize + 2x Pierce) in a locel store tournament going 2-1-1 out of 4 rounds, and finished 6th. Though I have to say that I 'm very happy with the choices, since the only lose was to that things that happen once in a while, I lost to a mono red kind of stompy deck with 4x Sneak Attack, 4x Through the Breacch and more than 2 (I don't know the exact number) of a R/G enchantment that is a pseudo sneak attack, but it works with the top of your deck (if you reveal a creature it enters play with haste, kind of crappy I think), he was also packong full set of Trini, Chalice and Blood moons, I lost first game, having a TObmstalker in table he was at 3 life, I played a Thoughtseize and get rid of bussiness letting him with only 2x Seething song, and mountain + ancient tomb on table. Next turn He top decked an iferno Titan and swing me for the win, 2nd game I tempo him out, and the third he was at 2 life with trini, blood moon and 4 mountains in table, and he top decked for his final trurn the Sneak attack, and the last 2 cards in hand were Simian Siprit Guide`Emrakul, I had no Pierce/ FoW so I scooped. Then I draw a 1-1 game with Bant. and won the last 2 against Blue Zoo (kind of canadian Thresh) and Team America.

As I said I ' m happy with the list but I'll make the following changes:

Main:

-1x Fire/Ice
-1x Inquisition of Kozilek

+2x Ghastly Demise

Side::

-1x Seize
-1x Ghastly Demise

+2x Pierce

Greetings,

Iņaki.-

P.D. I'm only doubting about the 3x DAze, I may try 3x Snare, but I think daze goes so well along with the denial plan, plus is incredible hard for supporting a 2nd Turn Hymn.

P.S.2. By the way discard must stay, not only for being a nice as disruption and provides card advantage, but also is incredible against a resolved Stoneforge.

P.S.3. A friend suggested me to play a Virtue's Ruin over one of the Perishes, in the side, to battle Mother of Runes (but also kills Reliwuary, Mystic,...). I think I'll a try to the 2+1 Split.

egosum
11-30-2011, 06:29 AM
By the way have you ever thought about the card Rise // Fall. I know Rise may seem a bit clumsy for being sorcery speed and could maybe be better with more creatures inthe deck (specially more snapcasters), but it can buy some tempo and the Fall part it ' s a least interesting.

Greetings,

Iņaki.-

berry
11-30-2011, 08:51 AM
Rise looks interesting enough, but it might just be too cute.

@borz: You're right that the meta might not be very good for Bob... It just feels weird to not have him in a black list, to me. But if I ever go into black your list might be a starting point for me (unless I just go BUG).

Oh, and your english is pretty good, don't worry. :)

baghdadbob
12-01-2011, 12:39 PM
I've been playing Defector's list from page 100. It is really good and has few bad matchups. I just started playing Thresh and gotta say it is alot of fun to play Delver makes the deck so good.

berry
12-01-2011, 04:17 PM
It's still a great deck, no one has brought it down yet. GW Maverick i.e. is not a good matchup, maybe, but I'm not having THAT much trouble with it, really.

A problem I do have is that there suddenly is 3 burn decks in our meta, and some random zoo-like decks, I will be running CB/top next week, anyone got a decent list? I'm thinking less wastes, more lands, 4 snappys. But I'd love to have someone who actually have played it's input.

cheerios
12-02-2011, 02:45 AM
Sorry if this might sound like a dumb question, which is better to board in vs maverick, mind harness or submerge? I'm planning to change my submerges and try mind harnesses.

Water_Wizard
12-02-2011, 02:54 AM
Sorry if this might sound like a dumb question, which is better to board in vs maverick, mind harness or submerge? I'm planning to change my submerges and try mind harnesses.

Probably Submerge. You can Submerge in response to a shuffle-effect, like cracking a fetch or activating Knight of the Reliquary or casting Green Sun's Zenith. Submerge is free and at instant speed. Mind Harness is nice because you actually get the card, but it is susceptible to Qasali Pridemage and Red Elemental Blast / Pyroblast. I think when you use Mind Harness, the creature comes over tapped, so it's not like you can use it until your next turn. I don't view the cumulative upkeep on Mind Harness as such a bad deal, as you can usually pay it for 2-3 turns and that's usually enough.

spartan117
12-04-2011, 04:53 PM
Another top8 for me, this time at a 72men tournament.

2-1 imperial painter
2-1 maverick
2-1 MUD
ID maverick (friend of mine)
2-1 maverick
2-1 maverick
ID

Top8

1-2 maverick (we wasted than surgically extracted my volcs and I lost because he was in bolt range but couldn't cast it FTW..)

The Duressed
12-04-2011, 05:23 PM
Were you playing the same list as before? What's your secret to beating Maverick so consistently? It's very impressive.

berry
12-05-2011, 02:22 AM
I'm curious too! I've basically been playing the same list but -2 fire//ice +2 snappy.

I'm also envious that you have so many big tournaments.

This wednesday I'll try this list: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=939103 (-1 grim +1 bolt).

Scordata
12-05-2011, 01:20 PM
I took first at the last Jupiter Event.

Here's a tournament report if you care:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22730-1st-Place-Jupiter-Games-December-NELC-Event&p=605609#post605609

Fire//Ice is still sweet.

Dyvith
12-06-2011, 09:26 AM
Hey all. I top 4ed with a UR Tempo deck, forgoing the green for Goyfs, but still keeping the Stifle Wasteland package, making this deck more similar to Thresh than to the UR Delver Burn decks that have been popping up.

Here's a link to the tournament report: http://jupitergamesonline.com/2011/883/greg-komars-tournament-report.

And here's the list:

Main deck:

4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
2 Dismember
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
3 Preordain
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
4 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Smash to Smithereens
2 Shattering Spree
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Submerge

Borealis
12-07-2011, 12:03 AM
That Delver Burn list sure looks like fun though.

Water_Wizard
12-07-2011, 04:10 PM
Hey all. I top 4ed with a UR Tempo deck, forgoing the green for Goyfs, but still keeping the Stifle Wasteland package, making this deck more similar to Thresh than to the UR Delver Burn decks that have been popping up.

Here's a link to the tournament report: http://jupitergamesonline.com/2011/883/greg-komars-tournament-report.

And here's the list:

Main deck:

4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
2 Dismember
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
3 Preordain
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
4 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Smash to Smithereens
2 Shattering Spree
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Submerge
A few questions:
1) Why preordain over ponder?
2) Were you actually able to cast Jace with 19 lands? Seems like 3 should be the top of the curve.
3) What, if anything, would you change about the deck after the tournament? What were the easy/hard match ups?
4) Did you ever want Price of Progress? - NM, just read your tourney report and now I understand - possible a singleton sideboard in the future - interesting you played against Doug!
5) From your tournament report: "When he Brainstormed with no fetches in play at the end of my turn with no pressure on the board from me at all, I felt like I had already Top 8′ed. I know this sounds completely obnoxious and elitist, but it was blatantly obvious to me that he still had a lot to learn." Why do you say this is a bad play? Isn't this good tempo/using available resources? I don't know as much about the state of the game as you, but this is a play I sometimes make, in hopes of drawing a fetch, playing it the next turn and saccing it - I guess if you have Stifle mana open, it's a completely different story. I don't consider blind brainstorming at the end of an opponent's turn always a bad play...
Thanks,
W_W

Goin Aggro
12-08-2011, 01:18 AM
So because I'm a bit lazy and or unresourceful,

Is there already a thread for the U/R Burn style of this deck? Or are you guys just hoping it goes away eventually?

Water_Wizard
12-08-2011, 03:03 AM
So because I'm a bit lazy and or unresourceful,

Is there already a thread for the U/R Burn style of this deck? Or are you guys just hoping it goes away eventually?

I don't see a separate thread, but if you want to ask questions about the deck, ask here or start a new thread.

The big debate seems to be mana denial package with Stifle and Wasteland or Burn with Chain Lightnings or Price of Progress.

Here are two tournament reports and decklists. The first is the U/R Tempo mana denial package and the 2nd is the U/R Tempo burn package. Both did well at tournaments last weekend.

From Dyvith: http://jupitergamesonline.com/2011/883/greg-komars-tournament-report. Read the comments down below. Doug McKay gives some great insight into the deck. I think it will do well at SCG Invitational this upcoming weekend!

From Star City games:
decklist: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=42531
coverage from the finals: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/finals_milton_figueroa_vs_andr.html

Here's a very recent article: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/23235_The_Price_Of_Progress.html

dsck
12-08-2011, 11:27 AM
So because I'm a bit lazy and or unresourceful,

Is there already a thread for the U/R Burn style of this deck? Or are you guys just hoping it goes away eventually?

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22676-U-R-Aggro-Control/page3

cheerios
12-14-2011, 09:43 PM
Hi guys,

I play the canadian thresh version (nimble mongoose with no snaps) and have been beaten consistently by countertop thopters by my friend during playtesting. Any tips on the sidboarding strategy versus counterbalance decks with ensnaring bridge if you dont have grudge/krosan grip available on the board? Ensnaring bridge can be too much and counterbalance just owns the deck. I usually bring in 3 pierces, 3 blasts and 3 extractions and remove 4 delvers 1 Lightning Bolt and 4 Chain Lightning. Post-board, I am confused on whether going on the full defensive (removing 4 delvers and bolts) or staying aggresive and just board in a few cards (prolly blasts and pierces). I might be removing/inserting the wrong cards during sideboarding or I'm just a horrible pilot. Any help is appreciated. :)

PhanTom_lt
12-14-2011, 10:10 PM
Ok, there's a few very wrong things here which I just can't understand. Why don't you have Grips/Grudges in your board? If artifacts/enchantments are causing you trouble, put in artifact/enchantment hate. Simple, no? Also, why do you try to play the control role against a control deck? You think he'll go out full offensive with his 2 Mishra's Factories and start making Thopters turn 3? He's a goddamn control deck, he can kill you turn 40, and he's damn better at doing so than you. Boarding out Delvers... So, you're left with a vanilla dude and a 3/3 shroud dude against his Moat, Bridge, etc...? Geez.
A.) Upgrade your deck. Play Snapcasters, etc.
B.) Make a good SB. It's not like blue, green or red don't have anti artifact or enchantment spells. Hint, there's one, actually two, even in the newest set if you can't afford Grips.
C.) Read Who's the Beatdown. Think about it. Understand that every single spell in his deck is better than yours, so he will overwhelm you over time. You choose to give him that time. Don't. Play aggresively. You know what is your answer to his dreaded turn 1 top, turn 2 balance? Turn 1 Delver, flip, kill him while he's trying to counter your spells with no cards spent.

cheerios
12-14-2011, 10:35 PM
Thanks for the input. I usually play the aggressive role against control (vs stoneblade), I don't know what has gotten to my brain and I decided to play more counters against thopters. Counterbalance must have gotten under my skin. I'm planning on including 1 or 2 krosan grips/grudges for my sideboard after playtesting. Maybe it's just lack of experience playing against counterbalance on my behalf. So boarding grips/grudges and rebs against them should be enough? I wasn't that impressed on the surgical extractions versus this matchup.


Ok, there's a few very wrong things here which I just can't understand. Why don't you have Grips/Grudges in your board? If artifacts/enchantments are causing you trouble, put in artifact/enchantment hate. Simple, no? Also, why do you try to play the control role against a control deck? You think he'll go out full offensive with his 2 Mishra's Factories and start making Thopters turn 3? He's a goddamn control deck, he can kill you turn 40, and he's damn better at doing so than you. Boarding out Delvers... So, you're left with a vanilla dude and a 3/3 shroud dude against his Moat, Bridge, etc...? Geez.
A.) Upgrade your deck. Play Snapcasters, etc.
B.) Make a good SB. It's not like blue, green or red don't have anti artifact or enchantment spells. Hint, there's one, actually two, even in the newest set if you can't afford Grips.
C.) Read Who's the Beatdown. Think about it. Understand that every single spell in his deck is better than yours, so he will overwhelm you over time. You choose to give him that time. Don't. Play aggresively. You know what is your answer to his dreaded turn 1 top, turn 2 balance? Turn 1 Delver, flip, kill him while he's trying to counter your spells with no cards spent.

Vandalize
12-15-2011, 11:03 PM
Thanks for the input. I usually play the aggressive role against control (vs stoneblade), I don't know what has gotten to my brain and I decided to play more counters against thopters. Counterbalance must have gotten under my skin. I'm planning on including 1 or 2 krosan grips/grudges for my sideboard after playtesting. Maybe it's just lack of experience playing against counterbalance on my behalf. So boarding grips/grudges and rebs against them should be enough? I wasn't that impressed on the surgical extractions versus this matchup.

Postboard, just try to bait his CounterTop with some 1CC spell (eh, half Canadian's deck). Then, if he can't find a 1CC in his 3 cards, and try to flip Top, just Pyroblast Counterbalance in response.

Works fine.

And just be as aggressive as you can. Turn 1 Delver, or an early Goyf is usually a good headache for them.

reev_
12-18-2011, 07:30 PM
Also, you can hold your snares for their CB. Stifle their fetchs + snare their CB. This make the mu more just.

cheerios
12-23-2011, 09:31 PM
@reev and vandalize: Thanks for the advice! The tips were really helpful.

ForlornEgoist
12-24-2011, 09:59 PM
......
5) From your tournament report: "When he Brainstormed with no fetches in play at the end of my turn with no pressure on the board from me at all, I felt like I had already Top 8′ed. I know this sounds completely obnoxious and elitist, but it was blatantly obvious to me that he still had a lot to learn." Why do you say this is a bad play? Isn't this good tempo/using available resources? I don't know as much about the state of the game as you, but this is a play I sometimes make, in hopes of drawing a fetch, playing it the next turn and saccing it - I guess if you have Stifle mana open, it's a completely different story. I don't consider blind brainstorming at the end of an opponent's turn always a bad play...

Well, the thing with Brainstorm is that you really want to hang onto them for as long as possible. Their primary purpose is to dig for either a key piece (eg. Grindstone with a Painter in hand) or an answer. When there is little to any board presence (esp. from your opponent) then you're essentially wasting one of the most valuable spells in your deck because of impatience. Control decks (even Tempo Thresh) can afford to wait several turns to draw what they need. I honestly am not a blue player so I don't pretend to understand all the statistics and interactions that go with cantrips/counters afforded by blue, however just flippantly casting a Brainstorm (esp. with no way to shuffle away bad cards) is a subpar play when that same Brainstorm might of been you're only means to try and dig for an answer to an opposing threat.

Against a mirror MU or a similarly styled control deck a random Brainstorm isn't going to be punished too severely, but against MU's such as combo/aggro (UR Painter/Goblin) that Brainstorm may be you're only saving grace when they make that critical play.

I may be overhyping Brainstorm somewhat (like I said, not a blue player) but I know enough from playing against blue to know that you don't want to cast a Brainstorm because you can or have nothing better to do.

P.S. I am unsure how Tempo's MU is against UR Painter/Goblins I just picked them randomly off the top of my head for examples sake. :p

Forlorn Egoist

Water_Wizard
01-01-2012, 10:56 PM
Well, the thing with Brainstorm is that you really want to hang onto them for as long as possible. ...
Forlorn Egoist
Thank you for the response. I understand what you are saying. I can see how Brainstorming with no shuffle effect is like playing with Urza's Bauble.
When I was taught how to play Magic many years ago (about 14, to be exact), Brainstorm was still legal in standard (thank you Mercadian Masques). There were no fetchlands, so really no way to shuffle your library. The store owner who taught me how to play said you should use as much of your mana at your opponent's endstep as possible. I realize times have changed and Legacy in 2012 is a different game than Standard in 1997.
However, I can see some arguments for Brainstorming (mana maximization and digging deeper into your deck). I like your comparison with Painter's Stone. Depending upon board state and your mu, Brainstorm should be used differently - as you mentioned, versus Painter's Stone, with an undeveloped board, you may want to hold it until you know if you need to eliminate a Grindstone or Painter's Servant.
Happy New Year!

defector
01-09-2012, 06:00 PM
Those are all excellent points on brainstorm, as far as tempo thresh is concerned the only additional point is that sometimes you must brainstorm or ponder to shore up your land draw.

Ziveeman
01-17-2012, 12:01 AM
Hey guys. No one's posted in this thread for a week or so, so I guess I'll rebump it. I Top 8'd the Legacy Open at SCG: LA with this list - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=43197

My matchups were as follows:

Rd 1 - Dredge - Win 2-1
Rd 2 - Mono-White Stax (Caleb Durward version) - Win 2-1
Rd 3 - BW Stoneblade - Win 2-0
Rd 4 - NO Bant - Win 2-1
Rd 5 - UW Stoneblade (Video Feature Match) - Win 2-0
Rd 6 - Bloodghast Dredge (Jason Bulkowski, Top 8) - Lost 0-2
Rd 7 - RUG Delver (Lu Cai, 10th Place) - Win 2-0
Rd 8 - Reanimator - ID
Top 8 - Punishing Maverick - Lost 0-2

If you guys have any questions, go ahead and ask.

ImpinAintEasy
01-17-2012, 10:31 AM
Hey guys. No one's posted in this thread for a week or so, so I guess I'll rebump it. I Top 8'd the Legacy Open at SCG: LA with this list - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=43197

My matchups were as follows:

Rd 1 - Dredge - Win 2-1
Rd 2 - Mono-White Stax (Caleb Durward version) - Win 2-1
Rd 3 - BW Stoneblade - Win 2-0
Rd 4 - NO Bant - Win 2-1
Rd 5 - UW Stoneblade (Video Feature Match) - Win 2-0
Rd 6 - Bloodghast Dredge (Jason Bulkowski, Top 8) - Lost 0-2
Rd 7 - RUG Delver (Lu Cai, 10th Place) - Win 2-0
Rd 8 - Reanimator - ID
Top 8 - Punishing Maverick - Lost 0-2

If you guys have any questions, go ahead and ask.


First of all, Congrats!

That spell pierce forcing your opp to double fetch into bolt range was priceless. I noticed you managed to avoid Maverick all day until Top 8, do you miss Nimble Mongoose in the punshing maverick matchups?

Also, how did you feel about Image in board?

I've been testing Mayor of Avabruck on MTGO, what are your thoughts about him?

And Finally, what changes would you make to combat the ever increasing Punishing Maverick style decks?

Ziveeman
01-17-2012, 12:55 PM
First of all, Congrats!

That spell pierce forcing your opp to double fetch into bolt range was priceless. I noticed you managed to avoid Maverick all day until Top 8, do you miss Nimble Mongoose in the punshing maverick matchups?

Also, how did you feel about Image in board?

I've been testing Mayor of Avabruck on MTGO, what are your thoughts about him?

And Finally, what changes would you make to combat the ever increasing Punishing Maverick style decks?

Thanks!

I'm pretty glad I avoided Maverick all day long. My brother plays it and in testing, the matchup is pretty horrid for RUG unless we land a turn 1 Delver and ride it & mana denial to victory. I skimped on the Nimble Mongooses (the list I usually played at my local store had 2 Mongoose, 2 Snapcaster) because in LA, combo is pretty popular and Mongoose isn't all that great vs Storm, Reanimator, etc, whereas Snapcaster at least flashes back Spell Pierces & Brainstorms to combat combo. I don't think Mongoose would have made a big difference in the Punishing Maverick matchup since Knight is always bigger than Mongoose & Ooze just stops Mongoose dead.

Image was great all day. I went 2-2 in the Legacy Challenge with an almost identical decklist, losing to Maverick (rukcus) & Reanimator, so rukcus suggested adding the Image in the SB to combat Thrun (which I lost to game 2 vs him) and vs Reanimator, Show and Tell, Natural Order, etc it's pretty good as well. I ended up boarding it in vs Dredge (kills Bridges) and RUG and both rounds I used it to copy an Insectile Aberration to double the clock and that worked out pretty well so I was happy with it.

I haven't testing Mayor at all so I don't feel I can comment about him extensively, though I guess my only question about him is what slot he would replace.

I feel it'll be tough to improve the Punishing Maverick matchup. The deck attacks at so many different angles that finding the one answer is going to be difficult. I would just hope to have a T1 Delver and enough disruption to back it up. And perhaps hope that the Maverick player isn't that great.

Koby
01-17-2012, 01:00 PM
Also, how did you feel about Image in board?


Heh, that was my suggestion to Jason after I trashed him with Thrun in the challenge. It has a lot of utility as Jason notes above. The alternative would be Gilded Drake against Reanimator, but since they have few ways to interact with creatures cloning is just as effective while still against Legends.

Henrik
01-18-2012, 03:58 AM
Congratulations Jason!

I am a hardcore fan of mongoose, but I know a lot of american players opt for snapcasters and/or lavamancers, and I guess there might be good reasons for doing so due to meta differences. I won't dwell on that.

However, I am curios of the 2 gitaxian probes over 2 ponder. Didn't see that before. What's the reasoning behind this configuration?

Ziveeman
01-18-2012, 11:21 AM
I don't like spending mana during my main phase except when casting a creature, especially turn 1. Probe allows me to cantrip, leave mana open, and get perfect information at the same time. You also get better value with Brainstorm because of it, especially early in the game.

paK0
01-18-2012, 11:28 AM
Congrats to the finish.

Was it ever an issue that Goyf, Mancer and Snappy all use the yard?

Ziveeman
01-18-2012, 12:17 PM
Congrats to the finish.

Was it ever an issue that Goyf, Mancer and Snappy all use the yard?

Thanks :)

Not really. Goyf & Lavamancer aren't really anti-synergistic at all. I ran Zoo for the longest time and I never ran into problems with those two. As for Lavamancer and Snapcaster, if you don't remove the instants/sorceries that you want to target, then it's no problem either.

paK0
01-23-2012, 03:05 PM
@thread: what do you guys think is the best creature base in a vacuum?

The general consensus seems to be 11-13 creatures, with 4 Delvers and 4 Goyfs more or less set.

The rest is usually made up of the following:
Mongoose as anti-removal
Lavamancer against small creatures
Snappy for raw power
Clique for ? (haven't seen that in a while, combo prolly)

So what creatures would you choose against the two following fields:
100% unknown and
25% Maveric 10% Stoneblade, rest unknown

I'd go with 2 Mongoose and 2 Snappy in the first and Snappy/Mancer split in the second.

Any opinions highly welcome.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
01-23-2012, 03:29 PM
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose

Every time. Snapcaster sucks.

Edit:

Placed first in a very small tournament. Three rounds. Drew 2-0-1 into the top 2.

18 Land
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

12 Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose

30 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Ghastly Demise
2 Spell Pierce

15 Sideboard
3 Extirpate
3 Disfigure
3 Mind Harness
2 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Torpor Orb

Round 1
2-1 UR Delver

Round 2
2-1 TES

Round 3
ID UWRG Stoneforge

Top 2
2-1 UWRG Stoneforge

Mongoose was MVP all night. Untapping with Bob is brutal.

the_ob3lisk
01-23-2012, 04:31 PM
I would have to agree with you RaNDoMxGeSTuReS that Snapcaster in this deck has been very lacking every time I saw him. I like that you posted a "dark" list that you tried out. I've been wondering why I haven't seen it in such a long time.. Care to post how the match ups actually played out?

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
01-23-2012, 06:50 PM
Against UR Delver I rode mongoose to victory. He raced me game two. Game three was a long grind where I top decked a threat and Tarmogoyf got there.

Against TES I lost game one to a hand with double Duress and Orim's Chant. Games two and three I bring in Extirpate and more Spell Pierces. Easy from there. He shows me a hand of Pyroblast. So glad I wasn't playing Delver of Secrets.

Against UWRG Stoneforge (he was playing Punishing Fire). Game one I baited with a Tarmgoyf. He forces. I resolve a Bob next turn. I ride the card advantage to victory. Stifle and Wasteland make sure he doesn't get more than three lands out. I lose game two due to an early Batterskull. Game three I play a turn one Nimble Mongoose. That's all I play. I counter the crap out of everything else. I end the game on a hand filled with Tarmogoyfs and Dark Confidants.

Ziveeman
01-23-2012, 06:59 PM
Mongoose is amazing. I could see a creature base like

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Snapcaster Mage

I like both Snapcaster and Mongoose, but you really don't want to see Snapcaster in multiples since he's such a big mana sink.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
01-23-2012, 08:09 PM
If I ran him, it'd probably be a two of. He's only good in RUG and UGW Thresh variants. Not a big fan of him in BUG Thresh.

I am the brainwasher
01-23-2012, 08:22 PM
10-12 creatures. I really wish that you could go below that number (which is indeed possible), but at the moment you simply can't.

ImpinAintEasy
01-26-2012, 03:53 PM
With all the maverick decks running around, is there any reason we aren't going back to the fire/ice package?

I realize on the draw it might be slower than one might like, but with submerges in the sb, I don't see any good reason not to be running 2-3x Fire/Ice along with the bolts.

Maybe it is just to slow, or maybe two damage isn't enough, but I'll be testing this on MTGO over the next few weeks.

Thoughts?

Ziveeman
01-26-2012, 06:49 PM
Here is the list I'm going to be testing - I agree, Fire/Ice seems pretty good against Maverick. Killing a Mom and a Hierarch or tapping down a Knight is pretty good.
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Snapcaster Mage

2 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
2 Gitaxian Probe
3 Force of Will
2 Fire/Ice
2 Dismember
3 Ponder
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare

3 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Island

Sideboard:
1 Phantasmal Image
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
3 Pyroblast
2 Submerge
1 Mind Harness

I only run 2 Stifle since I'm pretty underwhelmed by them recently, even though they're pretty good against some decks. People just know how to play around Stifle and leaving mana open for it sometimes can lose you a game. Gitaxian Probe takes its place since it cycles and fuels Mongoose, Snapcasters, and Goyf.

ImpinAintEasy
01-26-2012, 08:48 PM
Let me know how the testing goes. I actually feel you either go 4x stifle or none. You are trying to maximize the tempo portion of the deck with stifles and I'm not sure 2x serves that purpose. I agree about them feeling underwelming and find myself wanting to side them out quite frequently.

If the meta continues to shift towards people running Deed as a maverick sweeper, it might serve us well to keep Stifles in. Not to mention the increase in combo decks recently.

Let me know how that testing goes, I'll try the stifle testing online as well.

iLLEST
01-30-2012, 11:02 AM
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose

Every time. Snapcaster sucks.

Edit:

Placed first in a very small tournament. Three rounds. Drew 2-0-1 into the top 2.

18 Land
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

12 Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose

30 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Ghastly Demise
2 Spell Pierce

15 Sideboard
3 Extirpate
3 Disfigure
3 Mind Harness
2 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Torpor Orb

Round 1
2-1 UR Delver

Round 2
2-1 TES

Round 3
ID UWRG Stoneforge

Top 2
2-1 UWRG Stoneforge

Mongoose was MVP all night. Untapping with Bob is brutal.


Hey I really like the list. How competative is it against today's game? Any reason you chose b over r? It seems the rug variant is showing up in every top 8 for the last few months.

ceustice
01-30-2012, 12:05 PM
Here is the list I'm going to be testing - I agree, Fire/Ice seems pretty good against Maverick. Killing a Mom and a Hierarch or tapping down a Knight is pretty good.
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Snapcaster Mage

2 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
2 Gitaxian Probe
3 Force of Will
2 Fire/Ice
2 Dismember
3 Ponder
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare

3 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Island

Sideboard:
1 Phantasmal Image
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
3 Pyroblast
2 Submerge
1 Mind Harness

I only run 2 Stifle since I'm pretty underwhelmed by them recently, even though they're pretty good against some decks. People just know how to play around Stifle and leaving mana open for it sometimes can lose you a game. Gitaxian Probe takes its place since it cycles and fuels Mongoose, Snapcasters, and Goyf.

I really like your list other then I do agree with the above poster that you either run 4 Stifle or none, my favorite part is Probe it makes me think about ading a few to my list.

I am the brainwasher
01-30-2012, 12:32 PM
Yesterday I saw RUG Tempo (if you haven't lost your last drip of sense of honor don't call that Canadian) playing Nimble Mongoose, Grim Lavamancer, Snapcaster Mage & propably Tarmogoyf. In the same deck. I feel like I have to repeat myself on that one.
In the same deck.
What the heck is wrong these days... .

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
01-31-2012, 11:00 AM
Just a random blurb, but I went X-1 with DTT again getting 4th place at another local tourney. I loves me some Dark Confidant.

TheyCallMeTim
01-31-2012, 07:28 PM
I really like your list other then I do agree with the above poster that you either run 4 Stifle or none, my favorite part is Probe it makes me think about ading a few to my list.

Is it completly crazy to suggest cutting some Ponders to make the room for 4x Stifle and some number of Probe?

Ziveeman
01-31-2012, 10:56 PM
The Hatfield's list that put two people in the Top 16 only ran 3 Stifle. Maybe 2 Stifle is too little, but regardless, I don't really think it's something you HAVE to have as a 4 of. Simply the presence of Stifle will cause your opponent to play around it. Once they know you're playing RUG, they know that Stifle is a very real card and they will need to play around it or they can get blown out. If we can get them to play less optimally without running 4 Stifle, why not? That way we can way put better cards in its place.

People said the same thing about Daze before but now a 4-of Daze isn't the norm. Some people even run just 1 Daze to blow someone out and then for the rest of the game (or match) they play around it. I don't see why Stifle can be the same.

Einherjer
02-01-2012, 04:33 AM
What I see as an problem is the simple fact that you need to use Daze sometimes! You cannot rely on the enemie just trying to dodge the nonexistent Daze. We dont only play Daze to slow the enemy down - we play it for tempo-reasons - speak counterning for free and gaining tempo :P

I am the brainwasher
02-01-2012, 05:53 AM
Playing less than 3 Daze's and 3 Stifle's isn't just counter-intuitive, but also counter-effective in terms of what the deck is trying to accomplish.
Playing with (just) 3 of both is definetly fine (and I did played pretty aggroish lists before Innistrad with 11 Creatures and 3 Stifles and it worked out very well) but going below that number is clearly against the deck's playstyle in general.
If you play Snapcaster I highly recommend to play a split of 3 Ponder and 2 Probe's btw.

Ziveeman
02-01-2012, 11:02 AM
Well Daze I definitely agree needs to be a 3 or 4 of. The 1 Daze was just an example (and definitely not in RUG Tempo) that cards like those as a 4 of is not precedent. It's just frustrating when you hold Stifles and you can't use them whatsoever since my opponents know how to play around it. Maybe I'll just cut Fire/Ice down to a 1 of to fit the 3rd Stifle in since multiple Fire/Ice kinda get stuck in hand.

Anusien
02-01-2012, 11:22 AM
Every once in a while, you can blow someone out by playing only one Daze. They will play around it regardless of whether you have it in the deck.

I am the brainwasher
02-01-2012, 12:14 PM
I would put these statements more on the true side (also) and I do think that playing a random Daze is a solid choice in many decks (which is underestimated, thats for sure) but in Tempo it is part of typical gameplan in which either way its effective, mana-denial or not.
I agree on Daze and Stifle beeing mediocre in some MU's, especially against the better players, but if you figured that one out I see no difficulty in siding them out (or leaving in only a couple for show). Giving up the advantages of these 2 cards is too huge to cut them completely or shrinking them down to a 2-off.
In general you have to decide right while building the deck in which direction you wanna go and what your deck/brew should be capable of, if your list successfully finishes all your business that it should live up to thats a fine thing. Period.

If anyone's interested, this is pretty near to the optimum right now IMO:

4 Trop
4 Volc
4 Waste
6 Fetch


4 Goyf
4 Delver
3 Mongeese

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
3 F/I
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 FoW
4 Stifle

Sb:
3 PyroB/REB
3 Spell Pierce
3 GY-Hate
3 Submerge
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Mind Harness
1 Rough/Tumble

Cut the GY-Hate if you feel like doing so in exchange for more Krips/Ancient Grudge/Mind Harness/Clasm

ImpinAintEasy
02-01-2012, 01:44 PM
If anyone's interested, this is pretty near to the optimum right now IMO:

4 Trop
4 Volc
4 Waste
6 Fetch


4 Goyf
4 Delver
3 Mongeese

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
3 F/I
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 FoW
4 Stifle

Sb:
3 PyroB/REB
3 Spell Pierce
3 GY-Hate
3 Submerge
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Mind Harness
1 Rough/Tumble

Cut the GY-Hate if you feel like doing so in exchange for more Krips/Ancient Grudge/Mind Harness/Clasm

I really like the single Island in there, it's worth it in my opinion. Also, no dismembers maindecks is probably a bad idea. F/I is good, but not good enough to beat Maverick without the Dismember plan.

I'd be more likely to run:

-1 Snare or -1 Daze
-1 Stifle
+2 Dismember MD

Sideboard is always meta dependant.

With the upswing in Maverick decks, I think cutting down to 3 stifles to bring in F/I is the right call.

That's the nice thing about RUG, it is always flexible and since it has no really terrible matchups, it can remain flexible to shift in the direction of the meta.

I'm still not sold on Probe Zive, but it is wearing on me during testing. Would you run Probes md without any snappys? Or would you go back to the 4x ponder package?

royal
02-01-2012, 03:23 PM
@ the brainwasher: I agree with you on cutting one creature but why did you choose the Mongoose? In my opinion the Mongoose is a lot better than Tarmogoyf for example. Tarmogoyf gets killed by spotremoval, gets countered by Snare and costs two Mana.

I am the brainwasher
02-01-2012, 04:24 PM
@ImpinAintEasy:
I played a split of 2 Dismember and only 1 F/I before and have gone back to the 3 F/I.
Dismember might be a fine card but good players can normally get their Knight out of the range of it and then its way, way worse, plus it beeing a damn bad card to draw against so many decks and playing 2 isnt very likeley also.
There is a good reason behind this decision and the forced 2for1 against Maverick with it (or tapping Knight if you want to put it that way) are priceless in comparison to handle a Knight or Ooze from a mediocre player.
3 Daze and 3 Snare is something I would only recommend when playing with Snapcaster Mage. I simply don't and so I play it pretty straight forward which does the job quite well.

@royal:
I wouldn't play more than 11 creatures, regardless if its Snapcaster or not. 12 is just way too much and pollutes your hand with too aggro-ish draws that are your death-sentence against a lot of decks/opposing draws.
11 creatures are a very good call for an open meta; it lets you play both Control and Aggro very well, mostly because you can pitch Delver easily and allows you to overload the board sometimes to get some beats through.
4 Tarmogoyf is a must to beat random aggro-decks and develop a somehow impressive board. Some decks literally can not act at all in combat as long as you control the best wall of the format and I wouldn't play less than 4, propably like ever. The whole StP/Removal/Snare argument isn't worth much as long as you play correct, plus Mungo is a pretty underwhelming card from time to time (as much as I hate to admit that) in the actual meta.

Ziveeman
02-01-2012, 04:25 PM
I don't think I would run Probe MD without Snapcasters. It does build Threshold faster for Mongoose which is cool but overall Ponder is probably better if you're not running Snapcaster. Probe just makes it easier to get more value out of Snapcasters since it turns Snapcaster from a 3-drop into a 2-drop.

ImpinAintEasy
02-01-2012, 04:41 PM
I don't think I would run Probe MD without Snapcasters. It does build Threshold faster for Mongoose which is cool but overall Ponder is probably better if you're not running Snapcaster. Probe just makes it easier to get more value out of Snapcasters since it turns Snapcaster from a 3-drop into a 2-drop.

I figured that would be the answer. I am still not sold on completely cutting snappys, which is why I like 2x maindeck.

Has there ever been any testing or serious consideration to cutting the 4th Force of Will. I know other decks have tried this to some success and I'm wondering if I am crazy or if this is a serious idea.

I'm preparing for the GP Indy and without knowing exactly what to expect, I'm assuming there to be your typical Stoneblade, RUG, Maverick builds leading the pack.

I am heavily medicated right now due to a stupid cold, so maybe cutting force is merely a delusional thought.

Ziveeman
02-01-2012, 05:20 PM
I think it depends on the metagame. I wouldn't cut it for GP Indy though. My local metagame has little to no combo so I would feel safe in going down to 3 there (in fact the list I posted above reflects that), especially since I side them out so often anyway.

I am the brainwasher
02-01-2012, 06:05 PM
Goose list: See upper post


Snap list:

1 Island
3 Trop
4 Volc
4 Waste
6 Fetch


4 Goyf
4 Delver
3 Snapcaster

4 Bolt
1 F/I
1 Dismember
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 Gitaxian Probe
3 Snare
3 Daze
2 Spell pierce
4 FoW
4 Stifle

Sb:

3 Surgical Extraction
1 Crypt
3 REB/Plast
2 Firespout
2 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Mind Harness
1 Life from the Loam
1 Price of Progress


Currently I wouldn't catch myself by playing anything besides these 2 lists, the sb isn't set in stone though (and looks a bit too uncoordinated but really isn't).

royal
02-02-2012, 04:26 PM
So, I think someone has to finally start this topic^^: What do you guys think about Grafdiggers Cage in RUG? When youre playing Snapcasters you obviously want to play Extractions. But what about the Mongoose lists? Has anyone tested the card already?

reev_
02-03-2012, 11:21 PM
So, I think someone has to finally start this topic^^: What do you guys think about Grafdiggers Cage in RUG? When youre playing Snapcasters you obviously want to play Extractions. But what about the Mongoose lists? Has anyone tested the card already?

I'm running 2 cages in sb. Looks pretty nice against gsz + kotr and I like that. Also, is a fair choise against Reanimate (or less played dredge, NO, etc.).

reev_
02-03-2012, 11:29 PM
Edit: Double post.

wcm8
02-07-2012, 01:00 PM
A question for all RUG players: in matchups where you are playing against a mono-colored deck with no non-basics and no opposing land pressure (eg. no Wastelands of their own), do you ever sideboard out the Wastelands?

This might seem crazy, but bear with me: you're going to mulligan until you get a colored source anyways, and the curve is so low that you typically don't need another colorless source unless you're going for a turn 2 Tarmogoyf. Additional lands can also be a liability against a deck like Burn who is going to look for value in casting Price of Progress.

I realize there aren't too many decks like this in Legacy, but Burn is one example of this and is a deck that's on the rise recently.

Maybe a crazy idea, I haven't personally tested it, but let me know what you think.

Ziveeman
02-07-2012, 01:38 PM
I sometimes side out a Wasteland or two. Never all four. Most decks have at least one nonbasic anyway, and going down to 14 land seems pretty risky too.

I am the brainwasher
02-07-2012, 04:59 PM
Snare is so damn good against Burn (I guess they are pretty much unable to board out Marauders, PoP's and Rifts, maybe even Hellsparks) that you really could spare them for non-PoP's because you can keep its effect off by Wasteland and Daze.
Keeping this in mind I would not recommend to board out more than 1 because of getting screwed and it's ability to somehow neuter PoP, plus owning random Barbarian Rings.

Ziveeman
02-08-2012, 10:46 PM
Maybe a stupid question but I want some input: How does one sideboard with the Counterbalance SB? Let's take Hatfield's build: http://scg.im/d43731

Koby
02-08-2012, 11:26 PM
Against burn, taking out Stifles and Snapcasters.

Stifle does mostly nothing in the matchup, and Snapcasters demand 3+ mana, which is a luxury in this matchup.

I am the brainwasher
02-09-2012, 04:32 AM
+ a lot of Burn players board out Rift Bolt's anyway and all versions without Grim Lavamancer shouldn't play Fetches.
I am not sold on Delver beeing a counterspell to Chain/Bolt sometimes, while it can be ignored completely if it doesn't flip early on (or at all). To be honest, I really do hate this MU, especially when piloted by better players who won't play right into everything.
Maybe it's time to pack some Jitte's, as bad as that seems at first glance.

wcm8
02-09-2012, 09:49 AM
Gerry T had an interesting snippet on RUG in his SCG article today. He offered a list that was somewhat unusual (basically, playing a full set of Mongeese and Thought Scour to attain fast threshold). I don't think his list was really optimized, and perhaps I miscounted but it looked like it was running over 60 cards. However, the biggest change to his list was dropping Stifle in favor of Spell Pierce.

I have been a proponent of running MD Spell Pierce for awhile now, and even started a SCD topic discussing it in the Format Discussion board. The card is fantastic right now, and fights the cards that give RUG the most problems (resolved planeswalkers, game-breaking enchantments/artifacts, GSZ for KotR, a resolved combo finisher, etc.)

I am not entirely sure if dropping Stifle entirely from this deck is a great move, because in addition to punishing 'bad' players, it also protects YOU from getting blown out by Wasteland. That said, I would agree with moving Spell Pierce into the main in some number.

ImpinAintEasy
02-09-2012, 10:02 AM
Gerry T had an interesting snippet on RUG in his SCG article today. He offered a list that was somewhat unusual (basically, playing a full set of Mongeese and Thought Scour to attain fast threshold). I don't think his list was really optimized, and perhaps I miscounted but it looked like it was running over 60 cards. However, the biggest change to his list was dropping Stifle in favor of Spell Pierce.

I have been a proponent of running MD Spell Pierce for awhile now, and even started a SCD topic discussing it in the Format Discussion board. The card is fantastic right now, and fights the cards that give RUG the most problems (resolved planeswalkers, game-breaking enchantments/artifacts, GSZ for KotR, a resolved combo finisher, etc.)

I am not entirely sure if dropping Stifle entirely from this deck is a great move, because in addition to punishing 'bad' players, it also protects YOU from getting blown out by Wasteland. That said, I would agree with moving Spell Pierce into the main in some number.


So the plan is to scour cards in the gy to bump Nimble faster. Seems to me, dumping a Tarmo in the yard right into a surgical after board could be a bad idea. Hard to argue with a "pro" but I think this might be a little to cute. Nimble works mostly well in the control matchups and tbh, we can wait a few turns to build Nimble up.

I do like your idea on pierce and keep finding myself wanting to remove stifles completely but have yet to pull the trigger. I've reduced them to 3 md and am really wondering if cutting them completely will even matter. I'm almost wondering if it isn't time to evolve back into the Next Level Thresh builds for the current meta. Cut the cute Snappy tricks, bring back Grim + Collar for good times.

wcm8
02-09-2012, 10:12 AM
Cut the cute tricks

This is how RUG should probably just function in essence, and I agree that Thought Scour/Mental Note are bad in comparison to just running Ponder. If you REALLY want a value card to help attain threshold faster, I would run Predict, but that card is also in danger of being a 'cool thing'.

I think we can probably just cut Stifle, let 'good' players play around a ghost card that's not even in our deck, and add a basic island to the mix (19 lands total) to reduce Wasteland blow-outs.

I don't think 'Next Level Thresh' is all that great. Either you go full-on tempo with RUG Canadian, full-on control with UW Blade, or if you want to hybridize the approach you play UBG Team America. Without a solid removal spell, RUG doesn't seem like the best option for trying to go for the long game.

ImpinAintEasy
02-09-2012, 10:24 AM
This is how RUG should probably just function in essence, and I agree that Thought Scour/Mental Note are bad in comparison to just running Ponder. If you REALLY want a value card to help attain threshold faster, I would run Predict, but that card is also in danger of being a 'cool thing'.

I think we can probably just cut Stifle, let 'good' players play around a ghost card that's not even in our deck, and add a basic island to the mix (19 lands total) to reduce Wasteland blow-outs.

I don't think 'Next Level Thresh' is all that great. Either you go full-on tempo with RUG Canadian, full-on control with UW Blade, or if you want to hybridize the approach you play UBG Team America. Without a solid removal spell, RUG doesn't seem like the best option for trying to go for the long game.

Totally agree with most of your post. I've been running 18 lands with the singleton Island and think it is an absolute must. I'm gonna try your idea and cut stifles and do some serious testing this weekend on MTGO.

I was talking to a friend last night and I really feel RUG is starting to get stale in the current meta and usually when that happens game/match wins start to become harder to achieve. I've been playing RUG for many years and have been testing heavily for the GP Indy on MTGO for months. Lately though, I find that I feel I'm missing something.

The meta seems to be shifting and I can't put my finger on it exactly, but I feel we need to seriously think about changing up the decklist, maybe cutting stifles is that change which is needed.

Maybe I'm just paranoid, but do you ever get the feeling there is a card out there you should be playing and you can't quite put your finger on which one it is?

Koby
02-09-2012, 11:55 AM
Legacy has a funny way of cycling through the years. It looks like we're back to the point where EE for 0/1/2 is going to be King of the Hill again. It's also been the time where AEther Vial decks start to make a comeback to slow roll the creature threats while maintaining mana superiority with Port and Wasteland.

RE: This current metagame - play Fire/Ice. It stops a lot of the cards that are a nuissance in this metagame right now (Maverick, Elves, Delver, wins Goyf wars, taps KotR, extra mana denial etc). Also, play 4 Spell Snare (obv).

ImpinAintEasy
02-09-2012, 12:35 PM
Legacy has a funny way of cycling through the years. It looks like we're back to the point where EE for 0/1/2 is going to be King of the Hill again. It's also been the time where AEther Vial decks start to make a comeback to slow roll the creature threats while maintaining mana superiority with Port and Wasteland.

RE: This current metagame - play Fire/Ice. It stops a lot of the cards that are a nuissance in this metagame right now (Maverick, Elves, Delver, wins Goyf wars, taps KotR, extra mana denial etc). Also, play 4 Spell Snare (obv).

Agree with Fire/Ice as I stated a few posts ago. I am currently running 3x MD and 4x snare. I still feel as though something is lacking, like I said, can't quite put my finger on it. I guess Paranoia will Destroy ya!

EE does seem good which is why I agreed with your thoughts on NLT last night. Without utilizing Trinket for EE, I'm not sure running it MD is a wise option, probably best suited for the board anyways if I'm running F/I.

I've been so desperate to put my finger on this missing puzzle piece I seek that lately I've been testing crazy ideas like Noxious Revival and Animar. Maybe I just need a drink!

cheerios
02-11-2012, 09:51 AM
Hi guys! What are the common strategies vs the mirror? In addition to REBs, do you guys board in more removal (submerge,mind harness, sweepers) or go for surgical extractions vs the mirror?

ImpinAintEasy
02-11-2012, 11:33 AM
Hi guys! What are the common strategies vs the mirror? In addition to REBs, do you guys board in more removal (submerge,mind harness, sweepers) or go for surgical extractions vs the mirror?

Surgical on their Dual Land is pretty rough, I usually bring that in

spartan117
02-12-2012, 02:59 PM
Today I won a medium-size tournament (43 people) with my beloved Canadian Threshold.

Here are the MUs.

2-1 mirror
2-0 combo elves
2-0 uw stoneblade
2-0 nic fit
ID reanimator
ID hive mind

top8
2-1 punishing maverick

top4
2-0 hive mind

finals
2-0 nic fit


Going undefeated till the end is always a great satisfaction :wink:

wcm8
02-12-2012, 06:03 PM
Today I won a medium-size tournament (43 people) with my beloved Canadian Threshold.

Here are the MUs.

2-1 mirror
2-0 combo elves
2-0 uw stoneblade
2-0 nic fit
ID reanimator
ID hive mind

top8
2-1 punishing maverick

top4
2-0 hive mind

finals
2-0 nic fit


Going undefeated till the end is always a great satisfaction :wink:

List? Congrats on the finish! Any advise on the Nic Fit matchup? That one seems like it's pretty difficult for a tempo deck.

spartan117
02-12-2012, 06:20 PM
@wcm8: I totally forgot to also post the decklist :tongue:

3 nimble mongoose
4 tarmogoyf
4 delver of secrets

4 force of will
4 daze
4 stifle
4 lightning bolt
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 spell snare
2 fire/ice
2 dismember

4 wasteland
4 volcanic island
4 tropical island
3 scalding tarn
3 misty rainforest


side

1 red elemental blast
1 pyroblast
3 spell pierce
2 submerge
2 mind harness
2 rough/tumble
2 grafdigger's cage
1 krosan grip
1 ancient grudge


Pretty stock MD, but with a new interesting sideboard. I was expecting lots of GSZ-based decks, as well as some reanimator/dredge, so grafdigger's cage seemed a really good option to have. Rough/tumble is simply devastating against maverick and other decks which see less play such as elves, burn, goblins and stuff like that.

Even though I went 2-0 against both NicFits, I still think that this MU is an uphill battle. The best strategy against them is to mulligan in search of delver/tarmogoyf because they suffer early pressure a lot, especially if backed up with a couple counters/stifles. Grafdigger's cage is very useful agains them, locking up their GSZs and Recurring Nightmare. Spell snare is also an easy side-out for me, spell pierce does everything simply better, also letting you keep the pressure up by protecting your early beaters from removal.

TwinTails
02-13-2012, 04:17 AM
Hi guys, I've noticed a recent switch towards the countertop package in the sideboard. I'm having trouble with sideboarding do to my inexperience with the deck. I'm going to post Jesse Hattfield's list with a couple small changes (-1 Island, +1 Spell Snare, +2 REB, -1 Tormod's, -1 Submerge), and if someone with more experience with the deck walk through how you would sideboard in specific matchups? Please and thanks guys!

Artifacts
1 Sensei's Divining Top

Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Nimble Mongoose
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Snare
3 Stifle

Sorceries
2 Chain Lightning
4 Ponder

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Counterbalance
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Submerge
2 Red Elemental Blast

Here's a list of matchups for reference:
UW Stoneblade, RUG Tempo Mirror, GW Maverick, Burn, Dredge, Sneak and Tell, Affinity, Zoo, Storm, Goblins, Pox, Reanimator, Team America

Thanks again for your help guys!

Spike
02-13-2012, 05:49 AM
Why are you guys playing the CT package? What matchups do you want to improve with it? Against Combo our matchup´s already pretty decent, against Maverick CT does next to nothing, against Stoneblade the problem imo is to handle nasty artifacts like Crucible of Worlds, Equipments and Elspeth and I can´t believe that 3 Counterbalances will do anything against Canadian. I for example will bring in 4 Pyroblast and 3 Spell Pierce in the Mirror, so I´m not really afraid of playing against Counterbalance.

Senseis Divining Top on the other hand is a very good card against Canadian cause it trumps the denial plan of Canadian. For example it´s impossible to screw someone with a top in play. But even here we have better alternatives: Sylvan Library. That card single-handedly wins you the game against Stoneblade and Canadian and you don´t even have to spend mana to activate it every turn.

DerFern
02-13-2012, 07:03 AM
Why are you guys playing the CT package?
I did not play Canadian for about two years, but Hatfield's list somehow got me. So I gave it a try last saturday at a local tournament and went 4-0 with it (only change MD -1 CL, +1 Stifle).
CB/Top just wrecks those UR Delver Burn decks, which got quite a hype recently. It was also great against Esperblade and Reanimator (on the play).
It´s quite a metacall like about anything else, but right now I guess the time is absolutely right for a more controllish approach towards tempo.
In a meta full of Maverick or Dredge, I wouldn´t play the package but in a meta like this, I guess Canadian is a bad choice at all.

Ziveeman
02-13-2012, 10:48 AM
Anyone notice that Justin Uppal completely cut Stifle from the list? Spell Pierce is in its place.

ImpinAintEasy
02-13-2012, 10:57 AM
Anyone notice that Justin Uppal completely cut Stifle from the list? Spell Pierce is in its place.

Yup......He is also a frequent MODO player and Him and I have tested RUG to the nth Degree online.

I've completely cut them as well, going for the 3x Pierce Package MD along with 3 Snares. I haven't missed Stifles yet.

Still not sold on the CB sideboard. It could be due to my complete hatred of the CB combo, but I'd like to just blame it on me actually believing it is a bad sideboard idea lol.

TwinTails
02-13-2012, 02:50 PM
I can definitely understand cutting stifle for spell pierce. People will play around stifle whether you have it or not, as long as they don't see your decklist. Did you add a basic Island when you made the swap, or are your duals surviving?

juppal
02-13-2012, 04:36 PM
Hi, I am Justin Uppal and top 4ed at SCG Cincinatti with RUG delver and I decided that instead of writing a long tourney report, I would like to just voice my opinion on this deck. As you guys might have noticed, I cut stifle from the mainboard. I cannot stress how important this is. EVERYONE plays around stifle when you play turn 1 trop into delver. The real blowouts occur when they try to resolve a jace and you one for one them for infinite value.
I went undefeated in the swiss and can only attribute it to people fetching on their turn for nonbasics and getting wastelanded ( in fact, that is how i beat big zoo). You can look at my features when they are up and notice that I took out force of will in every match vs a blue deck. The reasoning is that FOW just trys to counter spells that spell pierce just counters more efficiently. I would not change anything with the list even though I lost to dredge by not drawing 0 extractions through 2 ponders and a brainstorm.

TLDR: Spell pierce is amazing and stifle is not positioned well at the moment.

Ziveeman
02-13-2012, 05:00 PM
That is exactly what I concluded when I Top 8'd SCG: LA. Good thing to see that someone else noted that, and affirmed that Stifle may not be completely necessary in RUG's game plan as previously thought (right now).

Congrats on the finish dude!

juppal
02-13-2012, 05:13 PM
That is exactly what I concluded when I Top 8'd SCG: LA. Good thing to see that someone else noted that, and affirmed that Stifle may not be completely necessary in RUG's game plan as previously thought (right now).

Congrats on the finish dude!

Thanks, I saw your match against stoneblade for top 8 and wondered "man spell pierce would be a beating against most of that deck", turns out I was right and did not lose a single game to stoneblade all day.

TwinTails
02-13-2012, 07:28 PM
Yes, definitely congrats Justin!
I was watching your matches, and pulling for you. You played the deck extremely well.
I hope the coverage comes up soon.
Any other thoughts you took away from the tournament?

juppal
02-13-2012, 07:41 PM
Yes, definitely congrats Justin!
I was watching your matches, and pulling for you. You played the deck extremely well.
I hope the coverage comes up soon.
Any other thoughts you took away from the tournament?

A couple, thought scour is mediocre and does not belong, losing game 1 to Knight of the Reliquary decks is common but submerge puts the matchup in your favor. Other than that, all I learned is that the countertop board is a must for the mirror and combo, this deck's synergies work so well with it.

Edit: Against Stoneblade I went -4 FOW -3 daze -2 Chain Lightning
+2 Top +3 CB +2 REB +2 Ancient Grudge

Haakon
02-14-2012, 05:12 AM
The presence of Burn in the metagame has amazingly increased in the last 2 months. Now, this is a fact...

None can negate that it is not easy to get through this MU without specific cards in sideboard. Personally, I've found lots of difficulties in facing the race of this deck.

So...which cards are the best choice to beat it???

Jitte?
Chill?

And, specially, where a place for those cards can be found?

Koby
02-14-2012, 12:23 PM
I've found that Spell Pierce alone helps to turn the tide pretty effectively, if coupled with an early Tarmogoyf. Just be sure to eliminate their Goblin Guides ASAP, and you should be in a good position to race.

ImpinAintEasy
02-14-2012, 01:12 PM
I've found that Spell Pierce alone helps to turn the tide pretty effectively, if coupled with an early Tarmogoyf. Just be sure to eliminate their Goblin Guides ASAP, and you should be in a good position to race.

Agreed, play tight with pierce, snare and daze coupled with Tarmo, you shouldn't need specific hate sideboard.

juppal
02-14-2012, 03:51 PM
I tested the U/R delver matchup and blew it out, the burn decks have trouble with mainboard spell pierce and nimble mongoose, the main reason they beat normal RUG delver so badly is that it can 1 for 1 the flipped delvers all day and the stifles in your hand stay dead, with my new list, burn could be in RUG delvers favor.

TwinTails
02-14-2012, 07:01 PM
When boarding against Red, what comes out first, Daze or Force? Also, Chain Lightning?

KobeBryan
02-14-2012, 07:36 PM
When boarding against Red, what comes out first, Daze or Force? Also, Chain Lightning?

The first thing to come out against burn is stifle.

TwinTails
02-14-2012, 09:43 PM
The first thing to come out against burn is stifle.

I know, I know, but I've gone with Justin and got rid of Stifle in favor of Spell Pierce.

juppal
02-14-2012, 09:45 PM
First daze then chain lightning, FOW is still solid vs Price and the main way to win is to ride mongoose to victory.

Einherjer
02-15-2012, 11:49 AM
Honestly if we cut Stifles we could play UR Delver aswell...cause then were BURNAGGROtempo... And only tempo because we play Dazes and wastelands which were never the core of a temposhell - its always been Stifle. I mean if you cut Stifles you SHOULD do a totally different approach on the deck - not just playing the same list just with - 4 Stifle..

Just my 2k Euro

Greetings

ImpinAintEasy
02-15-2012, 01:07 PM
Honestly if we cut Stifles we could play UR Delver aswell...cause then were BURNAGGROtempo... And only tempo because we play Dazes and wastelands which were never the core of a temposhell - its always been Stifle. I mean if you cut Stifles you SHOULD do a totally different approach on the deck - not just playing the same list just with - 4 Stifle..

Just my 2k Euro

Greetings

I'm a little confused by your post, but I think what you are trying to say is that cutting stifles from the maindeck now makes the deck a non-tempo deck, so why even run RUG then. If this is the purpose of your post, I couldn't disagree more.

You are still representing a RUG Tempo deck and a good opponent will be playing around stifles. You can gain tempo advantage with Daze and Wasteland and having access to spell pierce maindeck just opens up so many other options. Just because we cut stifles doesn't make us an aggroburn deck, we have access to heavy beaters like Tarmo. In the current meta, Stifle is the weakest card in the deck atm.

Shuffle up RUG without Stifles, you will not be disappointed.

JeroenC
02-16-2012, 03:08 AM
Isn't it an option to just run a singleton or 2-of Stifle? If you hit them with it in G1, they'll always play around it after that, and that will slow them down.
If you didn't draw it in G1 but draw it later, you can use it at that point to hit them with a surprise Stifle if they don't see it coming.

Pretty much the same reason you could also run a singleton/2-of Daze. Mostly psychological advantage (scaring the opponent into more defensive play) without putting a 4-of in your deck if you don't really like the card.

juppal
02-16-2012, 03:31 AM
Isn't it an option to just run a singleton or 2-of Stifle? If you hit them with it in G1, they'll always play around it after that, and that will slow them down.
If you didn't draw it in G1 but draw it later, you can use it at that point to hit them with a surprise Stifle if they don't see it coming.

Pretty much the same reason you could also run a singleton/2-of Daze. Mostly psychological advantage (scaring the opponent into more defensive play) without putting a 4-of in your deck if you don't really like the card.

Spell pierce is just so vastly superior to stifle right now, playing the card stifle, no matter the number, is a waste. The psychological edge is minuscule compared to the advantage gained in countering an STP, planeswalker, or burn spell. If you really like stifle that much, then play the three. It's late game application is ok at best, but if it late game in G1, chances are that you have lost.

Spike
02-16-2012, 08:39 AM
I think not playing stifle is not the right way to go. Stifle is one of the core cards for Canadian. By not playing Stifle your Wastelands and Dazes get much worse. Besides that being able to protect your own lands is very important in the current metagame.

You say that all the good players are able to play around Stifle? Well, that´s true, a good player knows the tricks to minimize the effects of Stifle but he will never be able to completely negate it. Just playing land, go while getting beaten by Delver doesn´t win you the game. That´s where Stifle shines, turning your Dazes on and preventing the opponent from reaching too much mana.

If you want to play Spell Pierces instead of Stifle I´ll join Phillip and think it´s better to develop a new approach to the deck, perhaps something like NLT for example.

TwinTails
02-16-2012, 01:51 PM
In all honesty, when I was playing stifle, I was never sold on it. Sure, there are games where you can blow somebody out by stifling their fetchland and landscrewing them, but stifle has no way to get you back into games when you are losing. Stifle almost always ends up as a dead card in your hand and topdecking it after turn 1 or 2 is just terrible.
One of the main reasons that spell pierce fits into this deck so well is because it protects your early threats from removal like StP and bolt allowing them to actually get in for some damage. Pierce also has more relevance later in the game, countering cards like Jace, problem cards in combo decks. It also helps you win counter wars. Spell pierce helps you keep the pressure on early, while not completely falling off in the mid game.
Also, if you are concerned about protecting your lands from wasteland without stifle, try running a basic island in your list, it has helped me out in quite a few situations, and you can actually grab a land if your 'goyf gets pathed.

Einherjer
02-16-2012, 02:06 PM
Spell Pierce IS a great card.
Its good at protecting your creatures.
Its good at winning counter-wars.
Its good at killing planeswalkers and other non-creature-threats.

You could build a great deck with Spell Pierce and some threats - but this wouldnt be RUG Tempo - honestly. This ist just another deck-type. Some sorts of BlueZoo are built like this - at least my version of BlueZoo looked like this.

Even though you might be pissed off from a topecked Stifle you still have games where it goes Stifle--> Waste-->Win. And you wanna negate all this matches by playing a card that doesnt fit a gameplan per se?

Sorry but youd be better discussing this in NLT - as this really is a NewLevel - wether its better or not- I cannot say here and now.

Greetings

juppal
02-16-2012, 04:05 PM
Spell Pierce IS a great card.
Its good at protecting your creatures.
Its good at winning counter-wars.
Its good at killing planeswalkers and other non-creature-threats.

You could build a great deck with Spell Pierce and some threats - but this wouldnt be RUG Tempo - honestly. This ist just another deck-type. Some sorts of BlueZoo are built like this - at least my version of BlueZoo looked like this.

Even though you might be pissed off from a topecked Stifle you still have games where it goes Stifle--> Waste-->Win. And you wanna negate all this matches by playing a card that doesnt fit a gameplan per se?

Sorry but youd be better discussing this in NLT - as this really is a NewLevel - wether its better or not- I cannot say here and now.

Greetings

I strongly disagree, Thresh is evolving at an alarming rate since the release of delver and snapcaster, right now, I believe Thresh has now evolved to incorporate a way to one for one key cards that stifle could not do. Snapcaster is really good pierce too, 3 mana for a 2/1 and countering a jace can turn a game around.

rancOr_
02-16-2012, 07:33 PM
Cutting stifle for pierce is an option,but IMHO you make the deck weaker.The argument about good players playing around stifle is a bit strange.Sure any1 who hasn't been living under a rock will most likely be aware of stifle when they see volc/trops etc,but that doesnt make it bad.U can't completely play around stifle cause in doing so ur not developping ur own gameplan most of the times.Also many times ur opponent has to crack his fetch and if u stifle its such a tempo swing. It also has other functions like protecting ur own lands(not like 18lands no basics is a lot...). I think many pple forget that stifle is a VERY skill intensive card to play correct and thus dislike it, because they don't play it to its full effect.Dont get me wrong pierce is really good too,but I think u should really consider cutting stifles...I know I'd never ever cut them in rug(and I even play them in NLT to great effect...)

CookedChestnuts
02-19-2012, 10:57 AM
To somewhat settle this whole Stifle VS Spell Pierce argument (I've tested both), they are both fine, and it should be a meta call. I play Stifle main, and 3 Pierce in the board. My board is currently:

2 Ancient Grudge
3 Submerge (Considering cutting another card for the 2-2 Submerge/Mind Harness split)
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
3 Spell Pierce
1 Tormod's Crypt

I would rather have Stifle as a 'blowout' for game 1, or at least something to still keep me in the game versus decks like Zoo/Maverick. Spell Pierce main against those decks only hits removal/burn, and unique cards like Library and Green Sun's Zenith. Meanwhile, Stifling Knight of the Reliquary, Mother of Runes, Grim Lavamancers, Fetchlands, Scryb Ranger, equipping, etc. is a lot better than "Oh shit, I played my land, can't Pierce this Maverick players Stoneforge Mystic, he goes and gets Batterskull/Sword of Fire and Ice, and now I proceed to die." Also boarding out Stifles is very awesome because your opponent is basically forced to play around Stifle (not saying they won't fetch until you're tapped out, but they won't necessarily keep that one/two land hand if they're both fetches and you're on the play).

I find the decks where I board in Pierce, Stifle is very strong as well (Storm combo, UW Stoneforge, general control matchups, etc). Pierce shines in the Storm matchup, but this deck basically has that matchup in the bag, between Delver/Goyf/Mongoose clock, recurring Lightning Bolts, Dazes, Force of Wills, Stifles, Spell Pierces, Spell Snares, the potential for Counterbalance/Sensei's Divining Top post board (I don't play that version, but it's a force nonetheless), that matchup is baby town frollics.

The Duressed
02-19-2012, 03:54 PM
I played in a 20-man tournament yesterday, and here's my report based on my best attempts at remembering what happened without any notes.

4 Delver of Secrets
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fire / Ice

4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Spell Pierce

4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Mind Harness
3 Counterbalance
2 Submerge
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Pyroblast
2 Sensei's Divining Top



Round 1: GWB Treefolk Rock

Game 1: He opens with Murmuring Bosk, so I know I'm in for an interesting and untested game. Turn two he throws out a Skinshifter, which I Snare. I throw down a couple Mongeese and a Delver, which get to work. Eventually I see Treefolk Harbinger into Doran. Interesting deck, bro. The rest of the Junk shell was the same (Vindicates, Swords to Plowshares, etc). Eventually I end up Snapcasting a Lightning Bolt for the win. I think I Forced a Deed in there somewhere as well.

Sideboarding: +2 Mind Harness, +2 Submerge, -3 Fire/Ice, -1 Spell Pierce.

Game 2: This game is more of the same, except with more Treefolk Harbingers. Fortunately I'm able to keep Doran off the table, so he's got a bunch of stupid 0/3s, and on one turn he taps out for an Elspeth, which I counter, and then the next turn kill his unprotected Skinshifter with a Lightning Bolt. I get there a few turns later.

Thoughts: Just play junk, bro. This deck with neither Green Sun's Zenith nor Stoneforge Mystic is just way worse. Also you play Treefolk Harbinger. In general, though, I'd say that this was an interesting enough match-up. Just protect a Delver or keep the path clear for a Mongoose, and the rest is pie.

1-0.

Round 2: UW/r Thopter Sword (red for sideboard options and Engineered Explosives, it seems).

Game 1: Things just mostly go my way this game. I don't remember exactly what happened, I know that Spell Pierce was a boss and Wasteland was worthless.

Sideboarding: +3 Counterbalance, +3 Pyroblast, +2 Sensei's Divining Top, -2 Ponder, -2 Force of Will, -3 Fire/Ice, -1 Lightning Bolt.

Game 2: Everything this game went right, then everything went wrong. I fan open a sweet hand with Top, Counterbalance, Force, blue card, and 2 lands. I'm golden. Turn 1 Top, Turn 2 CB which goes unopposed, except that in response he plays Enlightened Tutor for Blood Moon. He goes land, pass. I untap and pass. He plays a land and Blood Moon. I Force (with zero 3 cmc cards in the deck), and he fires back with Flusterstorm. What a freaking beating. I sit there with Counterbalance looking like a chump, and a couple turns later I scoop it up to his Jace.

Game 3: He's stuck on only blue lands, and I make pretty short work of him. I beat him down with Delvers, and at the end of the game he fans open a hand with double Swords and Firespout.

Thoughts: If he had used any combination of cards besides Blood Moon and Flusterstorm game 2, I'm quite confident I would have ridden CB-Top to victory. I feel much better about the match-up against other blue decks with Counterbalance in my sideboard.

2-0

Round 3: Nic Fit (GWB Veteran Explorer)

Game 1: It's pretty even for a while, and at one point he plays Therapy out of the bin, sacrificing Veteran Explorer. The triggers happen too fast for me (I was pretty much just not ready for it), and when I move to Spell Pierce, he just taps his two fresh new untapped lands. He rips out the two Delvers of Secrets that he knows I have, and ends up killing me 10 turns later. I'm pretty mad about the misplay, but am determined not to let it get to me.

Sideboarding: +2 Mind Harness, +2 Submerge, -1 Spell Pierce, -3 Fire/Ice

Game 2: We go back and forth for a while, both ending up relatively low on cards. Eventually he lands a Phyrexian Arena, which turns out to be huge trouble. 20 turns down the road, he has me fully buried in card advantage. I try to mount a counterattack, but Academy Rector into Moat is enough to seal it up.

Thoughts: This is the only match-up of the day which I feel was made worse by my lack of Stifle. And by "made worse," I mean in this case that it went from probably positive to incredibly negative. This deck is nothing without its triggers and activated abilities.

2-1

Round 4: Alex with Reanimator. (Epic team kills)

Game 1: I keep a hand full of countermagic and pretty much nothing else. He goes for it on turn two, but Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, *and* Force of Will turn out to just be too much. He draws another reanimation spell a few turns later, which I again counter, and I finish him off a few turns later.

Sideboarding: +3 Counterbalance, +3 Surgical Extraction, +2 Sensei's Divining Top, -2 Ponder, -2 Nimble Mongoose, -4 Lightning Bolt

Game 2: I keep a hand which gets me to double counter in time for his reanimation attempt on turn 2 or 3. He later tries again, but I have Surgical while tapped out. Good stuff.

Thoughts: Counterbalance would have been a ridiculous beating against this deck if I had ever drawn it. Otherwise, it's probably not the greatest of match-ups because of his high density of threats.

3-1

Round 5: ID.

3-1-1

Top 8: Merfolk

Game 1: He gets turn 1 Aether Vial, which is bad news. I'm able to hold his board down with some well placed burn spells (including two-for-ones by bolting a Lord of Atlantis during combat). Eventually we stall out, and he has 2x Reejerey, 1x Phantasmal Image on Tarmogoyf. I have 2x Tarmogoyf, 1x Nimble Mongoose. Neither of us can really get through, but eventually he just throws a Reejerey in there assuming he had a Lord of Atlantis in play. I block for an easy kill and finish him off 2 turns later.

Sideboarding: +3 Couterbalance, +3 Pyroblast, +2 Sensei's Divining Top, -3 Ponder, -2 Nimble Mongoose, -2 Spell Pierce, -1 Spell Snare

Game 2: This is a pretty brutal beating. Suffice to say, he had the Wasteland tri-laser, so I could never get a chance to Fire/Ice his dudes or even chump with Snapcaster.

Game 3: I keep a hand with Counterbalance and some form of counterspell, probably Spell Pierce. I play a land and pass, and he goes for the turn 1 Aether Vial, which I'm able to counter. At this point, life is pretty good. I toss out Counterbalance with no protection, knowing that if he had a counter he would have used it for his Vial. I draw Top soon enough, and get to work countering every spell he plays for about 10 turns. By that time, I have enough burn to deal with his 3-drop merfolk as well, and I ride on to easy victory.

Thoughts: I hear Counterbalance is pretty good when your opponent can't resolve an Aether Vial. Normally in this match-up I would side out some or all of my Forces of Will, but since I'm on the Counterbalance plan, I think I have to keep them in to fight Vial.

Top 4: Pat with TES (another epic team kill).

Game 1: He keeps a turn 2 hand with Silence and Rit, Rit, Ad Nauseam, but I had Spell Pierce for the Silence and Force of Will for the Ad Nauseam. At this point, he has no cards in hand, and the Delvers go to work. He concedes with 4 Gemstone Mines in play.

Sideboarding: +3 Counterbalance, +3 Pyroblast, +2 Sensei's Divining Top, -2 Ponder, -2 Nimble Mongoose, -4 Lightning Bolt.

Game 2: Not much of a game. He mulls to 5, whereas I keep a 6 with turn 1 Delver, turn 2 Counterbalance.

Thoughts: Counterbalance is a complete shalacking against TES, but blue already had a pretty reasonable match-up there.

Finals: Tempo RUG pseudo-mirror.

I say pseudo-mirror, because he was playing Stifles and no Counterbalance. I've seen what I'm up against since his previous round took probably 80 minutes, and I'm pretty sure I'm an underdog in this match-up. The Dazes and Stifles could turn out to be a big problem.

Game 1: He gets a couple Delvers online more quickly than I can deal with them. He had a counter for my Fire/Ice on one of them, and a burn spell for my chump blocker.

Sideboarding: +3 Counterbalance, +3 Pyroblast, +2 Sensei's Divining Top, -2 Ponder, -4 Force of Will, -2 Spell Snare.

Game 2: I keep a hand with a Counterbalance and a few other spells which I figure should be roughly relevant, although no usable counters. I play Delver on turn 1, Counterbalance on turn 2. He only had one Tropical Island on the field, and having seen his play style, put him on no responses but a Brainstorm. I was right, but believe he drew the Force of Will. Regardless, Counterbalance hits the bin, and he has a couple Wastelands waiting for me. He has my mana-base beaten, and so he has me beaten.

Thoughts: I should have been a little pickier about my opening hands, especially game one. I knew going in that this was the kind of match-up where if I had 5 lands in my hand, I would probably keep. Hell, if I had 6 I would consider it. Instead, he Wasted my face off and I didn't have a thing to say about it. Game two, I was super excited about resolving Counterbalance, but didn't have any action if it didn't resolve. Also I was again open to Wastelands. Without Stifle and Daze to protect myself, I think I'm at a pretty reasonable disadvantage. As I said, Counterbalance would have been awesome if it had resolved, but I wasn't so fortunate. Also, if my plan was just to resolve one card and ride it home, I probably should have left some or all of my Forces of Will in my 60.

All in all, I'm very happy with how I did and how my deck performed. Having Spell Pierce maindeck was excellent, and I'm not sorry at all that I cut the Stifles. I didn't particularly miss Daze either, which is probably largely a factor of my opponents not getting their fetch lands Stifled. Cutting the Stifles also made Wasteland a lot worse.

These factors all lead me to believe that what I actually wanted to be playing today was Next Level Thresh. I wanted basics instead of Wastelands, I wanted Counterbalance in the main, and I didn't want stifle or Daze. Maybe it's time to make a change and test it out.

I should also say that even though I was excited about playing Fire/Ice again, it didn't really do anything all day. It would have been sweet to flip one to counter a Jace or Elspeth or something, but really it could have been better. Perhaps Dismember to have a 3-cost to flip to CB.

JJ-JKidd
02-20-2012, 12:46 AM
Played 4 Nimbles for the first time in a small tourney 2 weeks ago, and I have to say that its the shiznit. I didnt have the Snaps but it didnt really matter as the early pressure that the Geese gave was enough. I will, however, try to cut my singleton Dismember and another card for 2 Snapcasters instead of those lists that run 4 SCMs which I really think screws up the tempo.

atropos
02-20-2012, 04:51 AM
To somewhat settle this whole Stifle VS Spell Pierce argument (I've tested both), they are both fine, and it should be a meta call. I play Stifle main, and 3 Pierce in the board. My board is currently:

2 Ancient Grudge
3 Submerge (Considering cutting another card for the 2-2 Submerge/Mind Harness split)
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
3 Spell Pierce
1 Tormod's Crypt

I would rather have Stifle as a 'blowout' for game 1, or at least something to still keep me in the game versus decks like Zoo/Maverick. Spell Pierce main against those decks only hits removal/burn, and unique cards like Library and Green Sun's Zenith. Meanwhile, Stifling Knight of the Reliquary, Mother of Runes, Grim Lavamancers, Fetchlands, Scryb Ranger, equipping, etc. is a lot better than "Oh shit, I played my land, can't Pierce this Maverick players Stoneforge Mystic, he goes and gets Batterskull/Sword of Fire and Ice, and now I proceed to die." Also boarding out Stifles is very awesome because your opponent is basically forced to play around Stifle (not saying they won't fetch until you're tapped out, but they won't necessarily keep that one/two land hand if they're both fetches and you're on the play).

I find the decks where I board in Pierce, Stifle is very strong as well (Storm combo, UW Stoneforge, general control matchups, etc). Pierce shines in the Storm matchup, but this deck basically has that matchup in the bag, between Delver/Goyf/Mongoose clock, recurring Lightning Bolts, Dazes, Force of Wills, Stifles, Spell Pierces, Spell Snares, the potential for Counterbalance/Sensei's Divining Top post board (I don't play that version, but it's a force nonetheless), that matchup is baby town frollics.

Although I see the benefits of having Spell Pierce main, I'm reluctant to replace Stifle because blowing up fetchlands is one of my favorite things to do in the whole world. I think your sideboard looks really good, mind posting your whole list?

cheerios
02-20-2012, 09:13 AM
Played 4 Nimbles for the first time in a small tourney 2 weeks ago, and I have to say that its the shiznit. I didnt have the Snaps but it didnt really matter as the early pressure that the Geese gave was enough. I will, however, try to cut my singleton Dismember and another card for 2 Snapcasters instead of those lists that run 4 SCMs which I really think screws up the tempo.

I have to agree with you, I used to run 3 nimbles without snaps, but removed them when I aquired the snapcasters. I have to say I regretted it big time. I missed the early pressure of nimble and delver combined, and had to watch my delvers die while my snaps where sitting on my hand. I'm now planning on playing the popular 4 goyf, 4 delver, 3 nimbles, and 3/2 snaps build also. I think that configuration can push enough pressure in the early game and can also pull of some nifty tricks in the lategame. By the way try playing sylvan library as well, it's been awesome so far.

Krieger
02-20-2012, 11:36 PM
I made 12th place at Charlotte this weekend with the following list: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=44085

These are the match-ups I played:

R1- U/B Control 2-0
R2- Zombies 2-0
R3- Punishing Maverick 0-2
R4- Reanimator 2-0
R5- Goblins 2-0
R6- U/R Delver 1-2
R7- Stifle Dreadnought 2-0
R8- Enchantress 2-0

The deck was very strong all day, and the Chain Lightnings provided the extra reach which was vital.

Ziveeman
02-21-2012, 12:29 AM
Congrats! So is the Counterbalance package the right way to go? How did you SB with the package in your matchups?

Einherjer
02-21-2012, 06:35 AM
Gratz and its good to see a STIFLE-RUG winning^^

Im new to the deck and just built it a few days ago, still I tested alot earlier(proxed).

Considering the Counterbalance-Package... in what MU does it shine?

What I think is: (please prove me wrong/right)

Reanimator/Stormcombo: A CB-lock is the win - but it may be too late + we have already an pretty positive MU

Maverick: CB doesnt help at all

Stoneblade: Didnt test yet

Mirror: This is where I'd think that Counterbalance shines. Cause all of their cards are in our curve - as we play the same cards.

So what about this thoughts? Im looking forward to your answer :)

Greetings

Krieger
02-21-2012, 10:18 AM
Congrats! So is the Counterbalance package the right way to go? How did you SB with the package in your matchups?

Counterbalance was important to my success. This is a list of the way I sided based on memory:

U/B control
+5 CB/Top package, +2 Krosan Grip
-3 Daze, - 3 Stifle, -1 Chain Lightning

Reanimator
+5 CB/Top Package, +3 Crypt
-4 Lightning Bolt, -2 Chain Lightning, -2 Nimble Mongoose

U/R Delver
+5 CB/ Top Package
-2 Chain Lightning, -3 Daze

Stilfe Dreadnought
+5 CB/Top, +2 Krosan Grip, +1 Ancient Grudge
-4 Lightning Bolt, -2 Chain Lightning -2 Spell Snare

Against the control deck I was able to counter many of his removal spells and use burn to finish him off. I never drew the Counterbalance against the Reainimator he just lost to not finding a creature in time and me having double Delver that both flipped quickly. Against U/R delver it is like the pseudo mirror so it won me a game and the other game I got mana screwed. Against Stifle Dreadnought I assembled the lock by turn 4 and he had used all his resources to try and keep me off mana so his had was so depleted he couldn't do anything relevant and decided to scoop.

What is important to note is that this is just a rough plan, the idea is to take out whatever cards are worse in that particular matchup.


Considering the Counterbalance-Package... in what MU does it shine?

The Counterbalance package shines in all the matchups you mentioned ( storm, the tempo mirrors, some control decks, Reanimator etc.)

You would likely want to bring in the Counterbalance package against Stoneblade Decks to shut off the infinite Swords to Plowshares. You would again just board out the worse cards for that matchup.

ImpinAintEasy
02-21-2012, 10:24 AM
I've been doing heavy testing online and CB shines in several matchups.

Mirror Obv
U/W Stoneblade is pretty much an auto win
ADN
Elves
Maverick - not good
U/R Delver
Burn


These are the ones that come to mind right away.

Einherjer
02-21-2012, 02:38 PM
Considering your statements...why dont we totally move the package to the mainboard? As the MUs where its good are obv. quite a large percentage of the field to be honest.
Do we have enough balls to do that? Shouldnt we up the lands to at least 19 then?

Greetings

ImpinAintEasy
02-21-2012, 03:00 PM
Considering your statements...why dont we totally move the package to the mainboard? As the MUs where its good are obv. quite a large percentage of the field to be honest.
Do we have enough balls to do that? Shouldnt we up the lands to at least 19 then?

Greetings

I run 19 lands already. As far as your first question, maybe, but I doubt it. I find myself typically siding out forces (some or all) and usually daze, so shifting it maindeck would make it more of a controlling deck game 1 and I believe you are really looking to commence the beatings with Delver Game 1. Game 2 you are going for the surprise factor, not to mention doing a better job of protecting your dudes with CB lock. If you show them a Nimble game 1, they are more likely to bring in Relic or gy hate, making your nimbles less effective, this is where CB shines, helps protect your more vulnerable creatures like Tarmo and Delver.

If people start catching onto the CB lock, we will see more Grip hate. I'm completely cool with them wasting slots on it tbh.

Here is my list for clarity (fairly stock)

Lands (19)
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Island

Creatures (13)
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Snapcaster Mage

Spells n Stuff (29)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
1 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard (15)
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Submerge
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancient Grudge

I'm not convinced on the Leylines, I'd really like to just run Tormod's, which I will probably do. I'd like to fit Grip in the board and Mind Harness. Maindeck, the only card I've been unhappy with lately is Snapcaster Mage. I cut it down to 2, only because It lacks in the early game imo.

One final observation I think we need to be careful of. Lately, RUG decks are getting away from Dismember, which I think is fine at the moment. However, due to this, I'm worried we might see an emergence of Tombstalker. It might be wise to keep a singleton in board, just for a raining day.

My 2 cents!

Einherjer
02-22-2012, 03:54 AM
Even though I still play Stifle our lists are pretty similar. Funny thing is, that I got mocked and kind of harrased in the german forums for being an idiot playing Counterbalance out of the side in RUG Tempo. They said it wouldnt help in any MU significantly and calling me a dumbass trieng so.... HIllarious.

My list would be something like this:

4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Snapcaster Mage

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Snare
2 Fire//Ice

////
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Mind Harness
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Submerge
1 Pyroblast


Is this really so bad?^^

Greetings

CookedChestnuts
02-22-2012, 07:47 AM
I don't like Counterbalance. I think it's poor a choice, and you can make certain matchups MUCH better without it.

Example. You can't beat Maverick without a fair bit of hate. Counterbalance does NOTHING against that deck, as they cast unorthodox Zenith's, and 4 drops (Thrun/Elspeth) and usually putting them on a soft lock is usually too slow. Say you drop a Top on turn 1, with Counterbalance in hand... pretty sweet, except when they cast Mother of Runes, and you're Forced to Bolt or Fire/Ice. if you just drop Counterbalance, you need to blind flip their 2 drop, which is either Tarmogoyf, Stoneforge Mystic, Sylvan Library, Pridemage, Umezawa's Jitte or Scavenging Ooze. If they drop Pridemage, you're hosed anyways.

Basically the deck needs 4 Submerge to remove the Knights.

ImpinAintEasy
02-22-2012, 09:00 AM
I don't like Counterbalance. I think it's poor a choice, and you can make certain matchups MUCH better without it.

Example. You can't beat Maverick without a fair bit of hate. Counterbalance does NOTHING against that deck, as they cast unorthodox Zenith's, and 4 drops (Thrun/Elspeth) and usually putting them on a soft lock is usually too slow. Say you drop a Top on turn 1, with Counterbalance in hand... pretty sweet, except when they cast Mother of Runes, and you're Forced to Bolt or Fire/Ice. if you just drop Counterbalance, you need to blind flip their 2 drop, which is either Tarmogoyf, Stoneforge Mystic, Sylvan Library, Pridemage, Umezawa's Jitte or Scavenging Ooze. If they drop Pridemage, you're hosed anyways.

Basically the deck needs 4 Submerge to remove the Knights.


You don't bring in the CB Lock from the sideboard against Maverick typically. Actually having access to spell pierce game 1 gives you a better advantage against maverick, helping you fend off GSZ. From the board you bring in Submerges, harness and grudge. We all know you have to find Delver to have a chance and that plan doesn't change pre or post board.

Also, pierce helps vs. their 4 drops with the exception of Thrun and by that point you should be flying over them anyways.

Raggedjoe
02-22-2012, 05:20 PM
I've tried out CB and I decided it was largely extraneous. Sure, it gives you a near 100% win vs Burn and boosts your game vs ANT and Zoo... but those are good matchups anyways. My personal tech on the sb is Grim Lavamancer and Basilisk Collar. Does wonders in the Maverick MU. I'm testing out a Trinket Mage package too.

Here's my current list:


4 Wasteland
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Snare
3 Dismember

///
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Basilisk Collar
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Mind Harness
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Krosan Grip

Trinket package is being tested right now as 3 Trinkets, 1 Collar, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 EE. I wish I had more sb room :/

EDIT: Hey guys, I'm kinda new to the site (made an account a while ago, never really did much). I'm very much surprised to see so few Dismembers. I used to have Fire/Ice in that slot like most of you seem to have, but my meta moved away from x/1s in general, little Affinity, Dark Confidant, Vendillion Clique, etc, so I found dismember to be a great spell when facing down goyf and tombstalker

ImpinAintEasy
02-22-2012, 05:46 PM
I've tried out CB and I decided it was largely extraneous. Sure, it gives you a near 100% win vs Burn and boosts your game vs ANT and Zoo... but those are good matchups anyways. My personal tech on the sb is Grim Lavamancer and Basilisk Collar. Does wonders in the Maverick MU. I'm testing out a Trinket Mage package too.

Here's my current list:


4 Wasteland
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Snare
3 Dismember

///
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Basilisk Collar
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Mind Harness
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Krosan Grip

Trinket package is being tested right now as 3 Trinkets, 1 Collar, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 EE. I wish I had more sb room :/

EDIT: Hey guys, I'm kinda new to the site (made an account a while ago, never really did much). I'm very much surprised to see so few Dismembers. I used to have Fire/Ice in that slot like most of you seem to have, but my meta moved away from x/1s in general, little Affinity, Dark Confidant, Vendillion Clique, etc, so I found dismember to be a great spell when facing down goyf and tombstalker


16 Lands is pretty ballsy, esp when you are trying to shove in Trinket Mages. I love the collar grim combo, but that is more like Next Level Thresh territory imo and it really should be maindeck.

Raggedjoe
02-22-2012, 06:04 PM
16 Lands is pretty ballsy, esp when you are trying to shove in Trinket Mages. I love the collar grim combo, but that is more like Next Level Thresh territory imo and it really should be maindeck.

Yea, I've been thinking about the lands. It's been mostly good but I'll likely up it to 17 or 18. My problem there (like the sb) is the list is so tight I don't know what to cut. Right now I'm thinking of dropping the Snaps for a Volcanic, a fetch and something.

CookedChestnuts
02-22-2012, 09:38 PM
I made a point about NOT bringing in Counterbalance versus Maverick. You need the Submerges to beat them. Hell, it's a terrible matchup.

Regardless, you should be beating Storm anyways. The deck plays Spell Snare, Stifle, Daze, Force of Will, a quick clock, and Wasteland. Post board, access to Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce is also available, and highly recommended.

Burn is the ONLY reason for Counterbalance in my opinion. Everything else, you just have in the bag.

Mark Sun
02-22-2012, 10:08 PM
I made a point about NOT bringing in Counterbalance versus Maverick. You need the Submerges to beat them. Hell, it's a terrible matchup.

Regardless, you should be beating Storm anyways. The deck plays Spell Snare, Stifle, Daze, Force of Will, a quick clock, and Wasteland. Post board, access to Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce is also available, and highly recommended.

Burn is the ONLY reason for Counterbalance in my opinion. Everything else, you just have in the bag.

You can pull ahead fairly quickly in the mirror with the Counterbalance package. If you aren't playing Counterbalance, let me know on how you plan on beating one. You also need it against some matchups like Stoneblade where they're overloading on Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile post-board, buying them plenty of time to get a finisher into play.

I think you're underestimating how this deck matches up against the rest of the metagame. In fact, it doesn't sound like you've played too many games with RUG Delver. Personally I don't think any deck is an auto-win, as you seem to think.

In Magical Christmasland, we can Wasteland storm out of the game and hit every spell in their deck with our conditional countermagic. Or, they can fetch their basics while we're tapping out to cantrip/play threats. We might get our only piece of disruption taken by a Duress, since our deck does have 6 removal spells and 14 creatures (roughly), and we may not always draw perfectly. Against TES, we need to worry about Chant effects in this mix as well.

Einherjer
02-23-2012, 03:27 AM
Totally agreed on this one Morbid,
Storm is no Auto-Win. Its a positive MU- which means you are more likely to win - which includes the possibility to lose.
Nontheless I want to bring back Stifle vs Pierce once again, as long as you guys are not yet tired of it.

Ill just list some (personal) ideas of pros of them:

Stifle:
1)Destroys Fetchlands ( good against every single hightiered deck )
2)Stifles Deed ( good versus Landstill and other BUG Control decks )
3)Stifles Planeswalkers-abilities ( in order to shoot a Jace you need to stifle the Fateseal - good against Stoneblade )-wrong
4)Stifles the Stoneforge's Comes-Into-Play effect making him a Squire ( good versus Stoneblade )
5)Stifles the Strom-trigger ( occasional blow-out vs Stormdecks )
6)Stifles some random SDT/KotR abilities once to allow an alpha strike ( good against evrything )
7)Stifles Wastelands ( good against Legacy - and good for our 6/8 Duals)

Spell Pierce
1)Piercing Discard ( good against any sort of black tempo/control or combo )
2)Piercing a lategame-bomb like Deed, Elspeth, Jace ( good against all midrange-control-decks)
3)Piercing Removal ( good against all decks with removal )
4)Piercing a GSZ ( good against Maverick - but doesnt make this MU better than horrendous preboard... )
5)Piercing a Cantrip which could find answers to your threats ( good against blue decks )

Okay thats what I could think of, right now. I personally dont want to cut on Stifles due to the reason that I like the total blowouts with Stifle and Waste, combined with Daze. Im not sure yet if i spend 6 slots in the Side for Counterbalance or if I play 3-4 Spell Pierces because this card is simply very good. More testing will tell.

Greetings

ImpinAintEasy
02-23-2012, 09:28 AM
I don't think anyone has been saying stifle is a bad card, by all means if you feel more comfortable with stifle, then just play the dang card. If you feel more innovative and want to have the "surprise" factor, then play pierce. Both cards are good, stifle has been proven over and over.

There isn't any dispute over the merits of running stifle, those of us in the pierce camp feel the meta is shifting in our area and thus warrants md pierces. Each to their own in this case, don't think you can go terribly wrong playing either.

Regarding CB - Agreed with Morbid's post up above 100%

wcm8
02-23-2012, 09:57 AM
Stifle:
3)Stifles Planeswalkers-abilities ( in order to shoot a Jace you need to stifle the Fateseal - good against Stoneblade )


Wrong. Jace will still get +2 to his Loyalty despite the ability not triggering. Adding Loyalty counters is part of the cost.

Stifling a Planeswalker trigger can still be relevant though, e.g. stifling the BOUNCE ability, letting you swing in and kill Jace on your turn.

Einherjer
02-23-2012, 10:25 AM
Oh okay thank you. As told Im pretty now to the tempo-plan^^

But honestly - what MUs are significantly getting better with Pierce? Storm already is a positive MU.

Raggedjoe
02-23-2012, 11:09 AM
Oh okay thank you. As told Im pretty now to the tempo-plan^^

But honestly - what MUs are significantly getting better with Pierce? Storm already is a positive MU.

There are some, but in every one REB is better. I find it interesting noone has brought this up. How many non blue decks would we want Pierce vs? I think we can safely say the answer to that is 0. Personally, I prefer to bring in REB over Snare and Surgical Extraction over Dismember vs Storm.

Preliminary testing with Trinket Mage has been interesting. I took out 1 Dismember, Snap, 2 Ponder, and 2 Nimbles from my list above for 2 Grims, 2 Trinkets, Basilisk Collar, Pithing Needle, EE, and one Island. It's been pretty badass

ImpinAintEasy
02-23-2012, 03:43 PM
There are some, but in every one REB is better. I find it interesting noone has brought this up. How many non blue decks would we want Pierce vs? I think we can safely say the answer to that is 0. Personally, I prefer to bring in REB over Snare and Surgical Extraction over Dismember vs Storm.

Preliminary testing with Trinket Mage has been interesting. I took out 1 Dismember, Snap, 2 Ponder, and 2 Nimbles from my list above for 2 Grims, 2 Trinkets, Basilisk Collar, Pithing Needle, EE, and one Island. It's been pretty badass

So you don't want Pierce over REB against Pox? Pierce is worse against AggroLoam than REB? What about against burn?

Seriously, how can you even make this statement. This is not only inaccurate, it is down right silly. Pierce is actually pretty good against Blue and Non-Blue Decks. It slows down removal, it slows down hard cast equipment, it slows down planeswalkers, shall I go on?

Regarding your deck, so you went up to 17 lands? Still pretty risky considering typical RUG builds are running 18-19 without 3 drops. Next Level thresh decks similar to what you are describing usually run 20 lands and fit jace in there somewhere. There is an entire thread designated to that type of deck design, maybe your discussion would be better suited in that environment.

Raggedjoe
02-23-2012, 03:47 PM
Your right, I did not concider that thought too well.

Thanks, I'll check out the NLT thread

Tombstalker
02-23-2012, 05:27 PM
Greetings, Im usually a TA player but recently ive been really intrigued by RUG tempo lists because ive always been a fan of tempo thresh and im glad delver has given RUG tempo decks a return to power.
I have a few questions about my decklist below and this deck in general. Also is this deck so much different that it cannot be called tempo thresh? Or is TT just such an iconic archtype that it would be offensive to label this 'upstart' by the same name? The two seem very similar except with a few new additions to my eyes but looks can be deceiving which is why I ask. Anyway heres my list up for suggestions:


Creatures
4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf
3 nimble mongoose
2 snapcaster mage

Enchantments
1 sylvan library

Permission
4 force of will
3 daze
4 stifle
3 spell snare

Burn/Removal
4 lightning bolt
2 fire/ice
2 dismember

Cantrips
4 brainstorm
2 ponder

Lands
4 wasteland
3 volcanic island
3 tropical island
4 scalding tarn
4 misty rainforest


Side Board
3 surgical extraction
2 firespout
4 red elemental blast
3 smash to smithereens
3 spell pierce


Ive grown very fond of library so its in the value slot over the 3rd ponder. Im really looking forward to playing with geese and fire / ice and bolts but not sure if they are enough so ive included a pair of dismembers which I know and love.

Spell snare maindeck is also new to me but 3 feels right but im missing the 4th daze like im used to playing with.

Lastly I considered a single grim lavamancer main, thoughts on this or would he be better off in the board? (or not at all?)

Oh and how does my SB look? Red brings soo many good options im spoiled for choices now! I choose smithereens for the burn attached figuring snapcasting will make it similar to ancient grudge. Still feels like im missing something though.

Thanks for the help.

CookedChestnuts
02-24-2012, 05:58 AM
Side Board
3 surgical extraction
2 firespout
4 red elemental blast
3 smash to smithereens
3 spell pierce


Lastly I considered a single grim lavamancer main, thoughts on this or would he be better off in the board? (or not at all?)

-3 Smash, +2 Ancient Grudge, +1 Submerge, -2 Firespout, +2 Submerge

Tombstalker
02-26-2012, 11:29 AM
Ok I still havent played a game with this yet but after some deliberation here is my revised list I could use a little help with:


Creatures 12
4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf
3 nimble mongoose
1 snapcaster mage

Enchantments 1
1 sylvan library

Permission 14
4 force of will
3 daze
4 stifle
3 spell snare

Burn/Removal 7
4 lightning bolt
3 fire/ice

Cantrips 8
4 brainstorm
4 ponder

Lands 18
4 wasteland
3 volcanic island
1 steam vents
2 tropical island
1 breeding pool
3 scalding tarn
4 misty rainforest

Side Board 15
3 surgical extraction
3 submerge
2 red elemental blast
1 pyroblast
2 ancient grudge
2 spell pierce
2 grim lavamancer


Im starting to think snapcaster wont be that good in RUG so I reduced the count to 1. I think Id actually prefer another cheap beater but not sure if 4 geese is too many. Does anyone that uses 4 mongeese find this to be true? Should I just drop SCM altogether? I do like his synergy with bolts, extractions REBs etc though.

Ive gone with 3 F/I since it can win goyf wars, kills mana dudes and ices bigger threats. Is this overkill?

Hows my manabase look? Im trying this config to dodge opposing extractions but id also like to fit at least one basic land without going up to 19. Any suggestions on how to do this?

Lastly my SB has been changed to reflect some suggestions and some ideas from this thread. I went all submerge over mind harness since submerge has a broader application and isnt as mana intensive. The rest is pretty stock except for lavaman which would be boarded in place of mongeese vs. aggro strategies like maverick or merfolk.

KobeBryan
02-26-2012, 12:08 PM
From my experience, stifle is the worst card in the deck. I would play it as a 3 of so you won't see it continuously in the mid to late game.

I'd drop the library since you already have 4 ponders 4 brainstorms. Then up the snap caster count.

Einherjer
02-26-2012, 12:29 PM
Cutting Stifle to 3? Honestly, youre aiming to have Stifle in your OPENING hand - which means you want to play as many as possible - and Stifle loses his strength later in the game so Id play 4 or cut them all together and switch to Spell Pierces as some people would advice you to do - not me.

Ive been making a few postboard games with my Counterbalance-Sideboard. 3 CB and 3 SDT from the Sideboard.

My list is, from the one above : +1 Daze, +1 Mungo - 1 Lib -1 Fire//Ice plus a normal Manabase from 3/3 Duals 4/4 Fetchlands 4 Wastelands
My boarding plan was: -4 Stifle - 1 Snapcaster - 1 Daze + 3 CB + 3 SDC

It worked out well shutting off the Swords and Brainstorms and Spell Snares/Pierces - Sometimes I was able to counter a SFM - but I didnt have a CC2 in the Balance all the time.One single time I revealed Force in order to counter Batterskull.

What do you guys think about the CB-SB? At least for the Stoneblade-MU its great.

Greetings

Adan
02-27-2012, 07:42 AM
I have won our monthly Hassloch with RUG Tempo.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

4 Ponder

3 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Spell Pierce
4 Submerge
4 Grafdigger's Cage

The sideboard was a suggestion by Oddball and I wanted to test it and see how the Cages were. You basically win harder against Reanimator and Dredge, but at the same time you'd die to Life from the Loam. Despite having won the tournament, I have to admit that RUG Tempo is probably not the best choice at the moment.

However, I think I might be able to adress some points made here:

Playing Countertop as a SB option:

This is just a waste of slots imo. I have no idea how the list with Countertop in the SB looks like, but iirc, it plays 4 Goyf and 4 Snapcasters maindeck and 3 Balances in the SB which makes it 11 CC2 cards and maybe 4 Spell Snares to counter CC2 spells. This is simply not enough to concequently counter CC2 spells postboard. Against the classic list as shown above, I'd take out 4 Spell Snares and 3 Ponder for 7 REB/Pierce and that's it. I fail to see how you'd ever want to win a Counterwar against a build that SBs like that.

Counterbalance is decent against Combo and Burn, but combo can easily be won without Countertop and Burn is a niche deck (I believe the matchup is better now that you have a faster clock in form of Delver).

Running Spell Pierce maindeck might be an option, yes, but cutting Stifle should not ever be considered. It's sometimes a bad topdeck when you are losing anyways obv. but I fail to see how Pierce is better in that situation.
In some matchups, Stifle is just key, especially against Nic Fit to stifle Veteran Explorer, Pernicious Deed, Liliana of the Veil (I mean the Edict-ability. Ram that creature into her afterwards or Lightning Bolt it obv.) and sometimes Eternal Witness that could bring back something badass like a Zenith or whatever.

Even against Loam-based decks I'd rather have Stifle instead of Pierce so I don't get wasted out of the game during the first few turns.

Not to mention other frequently played cards that get hosed by Stifle like Snapcaster, Stoneforge Mystic, Hive Mind. It's pretty difficult to find a deck where Stifle is completely dead.

catmint
02-27-2012, 09:44 AM
I totally agree to your conclusions Adan.
Snapcaster/Counterbalance do not have a place for me in this very streamlined deck.

I am currently practicing your list -1 mongoose + 1 Fire/Ice.

Awaclus
02-27-2012, 10:14 AM
I have won our monthly Hassloch with RUG Tempo.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

4 Ponder

3 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Spell Pierce
4 Submerge
4 Grafdigger's Cage.
What is the reason for 4 Volcanics and 3 Tropicals? You're running 8 green cards and 4 red cards maindeck. I'm currently building this deck and don't have all the duals yet, so I'm interested to hear.

Adan
02-27-2012, 10:29 AM
What is the reason for 4 Volcanics and 3 Tropicals? You're running 8 green cards and 4 red cards maindeck. I'm currently building this deck and don't have all the duals yet, so I'm interested to hear.

Well you never want and need more than 1 Tropical Island on your board and the 7th Fetchland is there to help you to:

- Dump more permanents in your grave for Mongoose
- Make Brainstorm and Ponder better
- Do tricks with Delver of Secrets

This makes only a marginal difference, but I don't think you are in the need of a 4th Tropical. Running a 4th Tropical might be an option when you are convinced that you will be playing a lot of mirrormatches.

But you really just want Tropical Island at the moment you are really intending to cast a creature (i.e. Goyf/Goose). For everything else there is Volcanic Island.

Fire/Ice is okay to have a 5th burnspell, but I thought that in any matchup Nimble Mongoose is the better card compared to Fire//Ice. Especially in the mirrormatch which is to a degree decided by who drops more creatures.
It will also probably win you the matchups where your Delvers get gunned down permanently.

Blitzbold
02-27-2012, 02:09 PM
How did you like the Dismembers? Anything you would change if you were to play a tournament again tomorrow?

Einherjer
02-27-2012, 03:49 PM
Thats a pretty straight sideboard! Why do you think that RUG Tempo is a medicore deck at the moment? Because of the Maverick-prevelance? Or because of the switch from dual-manabase to more basics due to the rise of Burn?

Greetings und Gratulation!

ajfennewald
02-27-2012, 10:40 PM
Can somebody explain to me why the 8 dual 6 fetch land combo is so common in RUG decklist. It seems to me that 8 fetches 6 duals is just better (for more shuffle effects, enabling mongoose, slighly better color access).

KobeBryan
02-27-2012, 11:46 PM
Can somebody explain to me why the 8 dual 6 fetch land combo is so common in RUG decklist. It seems to me that 8 fetches 6 duals is just better (for more shuffle effects, enabling mongoose, slighly better color access).

Its gonna suck when someone runs a choke on you when you only have 6 lands.

Hanni
02-27-2012, 11:57 PM
The manabase is that way because the creator of Canadian Threshold made it that way. And people netdeck like a motherfucker. I've never played this deck with 6 fetch 8 duals. I always play it the opposite way. It's irrelevant which combination you play against a marginally used sideboard card like Choke, for which you have Daze and Force of Will to answer. Plus it doesn't even come online fast enough to stop an early Goose + Delver rush anyway.

ivanpei
02-28-2012, 12:37 AM
The manabase is that way because the creator of Canadian Threshold made it that way. And people netdeck like a motherfucker. I've never played this deck with 6 fetch 8 duals. I always play it the opposite way. It's irrelevant which combination you play against a marginally used sideboard card like Choke, for which you have Daze and Force of Will to answer. Plus it doesn't even come online fast enough to stop an early Goose + Delver rush anyway.

Back in the day stifle was played in plenty of decks and tempo decks were a large part of the meta. Playing less fetchlands was accepted as the best choice in the tempo mirror. This makes you less vulnerable to being blown out by a stifle. IMO I still prefer a quicker threshold mongoose so I play 8 fetch 6 duals.

Einherjer
02-28-2012, 01:10 AM
Another thing Adan I wanted to ask you,
its the Submerge vs Mind Harness question. With you playing 4 Submerge I think youre pretty on the Submerge-side but isnt Harness strictly better? I mean its not instant but just for U you can get rid of an big fatty aswell - but youll be able to keep this guy 2-3-4 turns and attack with it whereas Submerge bounces for free - but enables the opponent to cast it again on their side! What do you think?

GReetings

Adan
02-28-2012, 09:33 AM
Another thing Adan I wanted to ask you,
its the Submerge vs Mind Harness question. With you playing 4 Submerge I think youre pretty on the Submerge-side but isnt Harness strictly better? I mean its not instant but just for U you can get rid of an big fatty aswell - but youll be able to keep this guy 2-3-4 turns and attack with it whereas Submerge bounces for free - but enables the opponent to cast it again on their side! What do you think?

GReetings

I don't have Mind Harness and I also don't think it's good in a deck in which you don't want to have more than 3 lands on board. Additionally, I also don't think you want to pay these upkeep costs when you want to have mana open for Spell Snare/Stifle/Bolts. In addition to that the decks playing KotR are usually playing Wasteland which can hose you pretty much. I've witnessed people stealing a KotR for 2 Turns and then still dying to it anyway as they could not apply additional pressure during that turns.

Submerge is also better against Zenith decks in the early turns where they might want to circumvent your Stifle with Savannah/Tropical Island, Zenith -> Arbor on the draw.
The answer to this could then be Submerge on Arbor, Waste on Dual, drop Mongoose/Delver. Hopefully with Daze-backup. It's pretty hard to recover from that one.

Dismember is very awkward for me, sometimes it was amazing and sometimes I wanted to tear that card apart for not being able to save me from... Grave Titan for example.
But at the moment I would not play without it.

wcm8
02-28-2012, 09:38 AM
Another thing Adan I wanted to ask you,
its the Submerge vs Mind Harness question. With you playing 4 Submerge I think youre pretty on the Submerge-side but isnt Harness strictly better? I mean its not instant but just for U you can get rid of an big fatty aswell - but youll be able to keep this guy 2-3-4 turns and attack with it whereas Submerge bounces for free - but enables the opponent to cast it again on their side! What do you think?

GReetings

The upkeep cost of Mind Harness can frequently be relevant. Maverick can answer Harness with Mother of Runes and/or Quasali Pridemage, though this alone isn't reason enough to discount it.

Submerge, in the matchups where it matters, is essentially a free Time Walk. In a deck based around tempo, each turn is absolutely critical. The best-case scenario of Mind Harnessing a KotR when it matters is pretty infrequent, compared to the times when you can slow an opponent's development down by Submerging a Mother of Runes/Noble Hierarch/Dryad Arbor. It's also basically 'real' removal if you play it in response to a shuffle effect like fetchland, KotR activation, or GSZ.

JJ-JKidd
03-01-2012, 12:06 AM
If you plan to run Mongoose, id suggest the 8 fetch, 6 duals so as to reach threshold faster

Tombstalker
03-01-2012, 01:17 PM
Ive been wondering about the inclusion of ancient grudge/kgrip in the SB. So far I havent found much use for them and I was curious what other people think. Im considering dropping them for a pair of engineered explosives.

Mark Sun
03-01-2012, 01:23 PM
Ive been wondering about the inclusion of ancient grudge/kgrip in the SB. So far I havent found much use for them and I was curious what other people think. Im considering dropping them for a pair of engineered explosives.

You need Krosan Grip to address the mirror. Otherwise, 2/1 split has been working fine for me.

Koby
03-01-2012, 01:48 PM
I don't have Mind Harness and I also don't think it's good in a deck in which you don't want to have more than 3 lands on board. Additionally, I also don't think you want to pay these upkeep costs when you want to have mana open for Spell Snare/Stifle/Bolts. In addition to that the decks playing KotR are usually playing Wasteland which can hose you pretty much. I've witnessed people stealing a KotR for 2 Turns and then still dying to it anyway as they could not apply additional pressure during that turns.

Submerge is also better against Zenith decks in the early turns where they might want to circumvent your Stifle with Savannah/Tropical Island, Zenith -> Arbor on the draw.
The answer to this could then be Submerge on Arbor, Waste on Dual, drop Mongoose/Delver. Hopefully with Daze-backup. It's pretty hard to recover from that one.

Dismember is very awkward for me, sometimes it was amazing and sometimes I wanted to tear that card apart for not being able to save me from... Grave Titan for example.
But at the moment I would not play without it.

Smart Maverick players won't willingly fetch into a dual land against Tempo decks. Submerge/Bolt/waste is a huge tempo loss, and having a stable mana base is more important than flexibility. GW/r versions may not have this option however.

juppal
03-03-2012, 10:07 AM
In my testing vs maverick, submerge is a blowout only if
1. they are dumb enough to keep fetching forests and not just use their mana guys
2. You already have a quick start on them IE: turn 1 delver ---> turn 2/3 flip
Without a quick start, the time walk becomes irrelevant if they realize to not fetch, they can dump their whole hand in a couple turns, making them recast a knight ( this is under the assumption that the tempo player cannot counter it) is not a big deal to them unless they are about to die. With that said, I find that the red splash maverick decks are actually easier for tempo than normal G/W, the terrible manabase in GWr makes the mana denial ( bolt noble, waste savannahs) a much more viable plan.

Einherjer
03-03-2012, 12:14 PM
Yes Im realising this aswell - with the upcome of Punishing Maverick or Punishing Blade these decks got even a little easier. Yes they got 2-4 Punishing Fires to burn our Delvers but finally our Manadenial-Plan works....

What I really dont like at RUG Tempo is its MU vs certain budget-decks..speaking of Poxx and MonoWhiteWhennie... Is it just my inexperience (just played this deck for a couple of weeks) or what?

And Im playing a split of 2 Harness/ 2 Submerge atm as they both are great.

Greetings

EDIT: What is your opinion on my sideboard? Help is highly appreciated.

2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Spell Pierce

3 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormods Crypt

2 Submerge
2 Mind Harness

2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge

useL
03-06-2012, 09:00 AM
EDIT: What is your opinion on my sideboard? Help is highly appreciated.

2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Spell Pierce

3 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormods Crypt

2 Submerge
2 Mind Harness

2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge

Pyroblast must always be strictly better if you play with Nimble Mongoose to reach threshhold. It's a metacall but I always run with double Ancient Grudge and 4 grave hate seems too much to me so I would cut the Tormod's Crypt for that 2nd Ancient Grudge.

Einherjer
03-06-2012, 12:19 PM
Oh yeah - sure point taken about the Pyroblasts.

But is 3 GY-Hate enough to stop lets say Dredge? We (or atleast I) do not have Snapcasters so this card is just a 1-4 trade... In any way...

Has Thought Scour already been discussed here? If yes let me know and ill delete this..

I was planing to squeze it in for the obvious reason of reaching GRENZWERT(This damn thingie wont let me type ********........ Grenzwert=trshold) faster. But this card has serveral other upsides:

Mill yourself when the Fateseal-abilitiy said "keep"
TS can swap itself into another card (maybe an answer) for just U
After a EoT DiviningTop TS should be pretty good aswell
In Response at the CB-Trigger
It can "shuffle" away useless stuff after BS
And a few more things I cant think of yet...


Theres another card that might be worth some consideration--> Magma Spray ( R / 2dmg to target creature - if dead --> exile)
This card could replace some Fire/Ice or additional Burn in a NicFit-meta (if there is any^^)

Greetings

Tombstalker
03-06-2012, 01:01 PM
I dont really see much value in thought scour to be honest. Its a cantrip that would likely compete with ponder, putting 1 more card into our grave than ponder does, but at instant speed so it wont grow goyf as large and doesnt provide any selection like our other cantrips. You did list some other uses that could be relevant but overall I dont think its powerful enough to warrant inclusion.

While were on the topic of cantrips though, I have one to throw out for discussion:
disrupt
While im a huge fan of daze, I think recently it has lost some of its value due to the extremely low curve of the current legacy decks and/or engines like gsz + arbor and veteran explorer often blanking our dazes after the first turn.
Not saying daze is worthless now but maybe we should consider disrupt somewhere in the 75 since while it doesnt give the same tempo boost, our curve is low enough that we can afford another cantrip for U vs. returning an island and at worst it is a cantrip while at best it can be a blow out resulting in card advantage. The cantrip effect really changes the nature of the play as well since throwing a daze to force your opponent to spend more mana to stop multiple spells/slow their tempo may not be worth it, but doing the same with a cantripping counterspell could be worth it.

Another card im considering is smash to smithereens vs ancient grudge, possibly as a 2/1 smash/grudge. I like the idea of increasing our burn density when siding this in but im still new to the deck so id like to hear some reasons for or against its inclusion.

Grizzly_Bear
03-06-2012, 04:44 PM
"2009 called, they wanted their super secret tech back."
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=2787&iddeck=36256

Awaclus
03-07-2012, 12:23 PM
Pyroblast must always be strictly better if you play with Nimble Mongoose to reach threshhold. It's a metacall but I always run with double Ancient Grudge and 4 grave hate seems too much to me so I would cut the Tormod's Crypt for that 2nd Ancient Grudge.
Pyroblast is better also because of Phantasmal Image, which it can target even if it isn't blue.

4 grave hate isn't too much, if some of it is in the form of Surgical Extraction. You probably even can't beat Dredge with that.

MC_EM86
03-07-2012, 01:16 PM
I won a 75 Player Legacy Event with the following Sideboard:

2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
3 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Rough/Tumble
2 Mind Harness
2 Submerge
1 Tormods Crypt

@Submerge vs. Mind Harness
There are so many situations where Submerge is better than Mind Harness and a lot Situations where Mind Harness is the way to go. Thats the reason why I´m playing a 2/2 Split.

I think Surgical Extraction is > Grafdiggers Cage. Against Dredge you only die because of Bridge from Below and the Extraction is good in a few MU like High Tide or other Combo and Loam Decks.

I am the brainwasher
03-07-2012, 02:09 PM
Red Elemental Blast has some advantages.
As seldom as that is, it can not be redirected to another non-blue perm/spell via Divert/Misdirection etc.
You can also play REB over Pyroblast against Cabal Therapy/Surgical Extraction, because the most opponents will name/target Pyroblast because of the estimation that you play more copies of it because it is in general superior.
I for myself always play a split of 2 Pyro/1 REB which was decent since I grabbed up Canadian. It is damn rare that those splits do matter, but I feel more comfortable doing so.

@MC_EM86:
I think this is pretty near to the optimum right now. I am not a huge fan of Surgical Extraction though.

Einherjer
03-07-2012, 02:53 PM
MC_EM86, which mainboard were you playing? 4 Mungos? Snapcasters?
Have you never been missing some Grudge/Grips?

Greetings

ImpinAintEasy
03-07-2012, 04:13 PM
So here is my decklist for the GP this weekend. I'm stumbling with this one "flex spot" and honestly just can't make a freaking decision.

Lands (19)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Island

Creatures (14)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Nimble Mongoose
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Phantasmal Image (Flex Spot)

Spells (27)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
2 Spell Snare
2 Chain Lightning
1 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard (15)
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Submerge
2 Mind Harness
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge

So the list is pretty much stock except the Image spot and maybe a few sideboard choices. I been doing tons of testing on MTGO with the Image in the flex spot or the 3rd snare or a 4th Daze or a 3rd Snappy. I really think right now snappy is the worst card in the deck and I will not run a 3rd. With the loss of stifle, I think putting a 4th in makes the tempo idea worse, although I really like going T1 Delver with daze back up as well. I always felt comfortable with the 3rd snare, it seems pretty good right now and without the 3rd snappy I probably want to up the snare count in the deck. So what about the image? I'm anticipating the GP meta while diverse to be full of mostly mirrors, stoneblade, maverick and prolly dredge and storm variants. Because I hate playing this deck against maverick, I really like the image to copy my flipped delver and make the race even faster. We need delver to win this match, so having access to a 5th seems vital not to mention it has merits vs. Thrun and other obvious legendary targets. I've never been unhappy to draw it, plus it pitches to force if need be. So this is my problem so to speak. Do I just play the typical stock list and go with the 3rd snare or Daze, or do I just be crazy and play the md image?

I don't want to fit the image in the board as I had previously tried because I think the board is already tight. I prefer crypt over surgical and with only running 2 snappys, surgical just gets worse. I love the cb package and so do other ppl, so 1 grip is probably necessary for a long tourney. Grudge is an obvious inclusion and to further help my terrible maverick matchup, you have the mostly popular 2/2 split.

So fellow RUG players.......flame on!

I am the brainwasher
03-07-2012, 06:14 PM
You asked for it, so here you go:
In that particular list, I would consider playing a misor Dismember.
It's better against Maverick, kills opposing Goyfs (which is relevant when you run just 2 Snares) and can own randomness like MUD, plus having the most random chance to flip to CB, which is hopefully not what this deck wants anyway, but hey.

Further on, I have to admit that I am not a huge fan of these RUG 1.5 versions.
FoW is not that strong in these builds (lesser pitches), Stifle is an All-Star right now (especially against equipments and Nic Fit) and Fire/Ice and Dismember are huge in the current meta too, so I have a hard time seeing the advantages of these lists.
I tested a pretty similar list to some extend and know that strong draws and lines are possible with it, but I felt extremely inferior in comparison to straight lists with Stifle every time I played it.
The only thing that might be convincing is the CB package, which can randomly own the heck outta some decks but thats really it. I don't even see a real need for that right now, but this is none of my business. Couldn't bite my tongue though.
Good luck at the GP and try out that Dismember :tongue:.

ImpinAintEasy
03-07-2012, 10:49 PM
You asked for it, so here you go:
In that particular list, I would consider playing a misor Dismember.
It's better against Maverick, kills opposing Goyfs (which is relevant when you run just 2 Snares) and can own randomness like MUD, plus having the most random chance to flip to CB, which is hopefully not what this deck wants anyway, but hey.

Further on, I have to admit that I am not a huge fan of these RUG 1.5 versions.
FoW is not that strong in these builds (lesser pitches), Stifle is an All-Star right now (especially against equipments and Nic Fit) and Fire/Ice and Dismember are huge in the current meta too, so I have a hard time seeing the advantages of these lists.
I tested a pretty similar list to some extend and know that strong draws and lines are possible with it, but I felt extremely inferior in comparison to straight lists with Stifle every time I played it.
The only thing that might be convincing is the CB package, which can randomly own the heck outta some decks but thats really it. I don't even see a real need for that right now, but this is none of my business. Couldn't bite my tongue though.
Good luck at the GP and try out that Dismember :tongue:.


Fair enough, I forgot to put that I had tested Dismember much like everyone else. I wonder if anyone has given thought to flusterstorm maindeck or is it just a worse pierce?

Mark Sun
03-07-2012, 11:41 PM
Fair enough, I forgot to put that I had tested Dismember much like everyone else. I wonder if anyone has given thought to flusterstorm maindeck or is it just a worse pierce?

Worse Pierce, although it would be better against the degenerate decks.

I'm just finishing a small write up on my thoughts on RUG Delver, should go up tonight or tomorrow.

Btw, find me in Indy; we should grab a beer :smile:

ThomasDowd
03-08-2012, 02:15 AM
what are you realistically copying with image that is worth two mana?( a flipped delver? a worse goyf? ) also the single dismember is very good. helps in your G/x matchups and a few other places (sometimes kills knight, 85-90% of the time kills goyf, kills a flipped delver)

I would play the 4th goose or the 3rd snapcaster. the list I was playing is similar to yours(no CB top package) but I'm making some changes from just playing the deck to include stifle i think for the mirror, where fetch lands and wastelands are particularly frequent

MC_EM86
03-08-2012, 05:17 AM
@Phillip802

My Maindeck configuration loooks like this:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Nimble mongoose
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember
1 Fire/Ice
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island

I`m playing this configuration for months ago and I´m very satisfied with it.

I am the brainwasher
03-08-2012, 06:38 AM
I play the same list, just that I run 3 F/I instead of the split of Dismembers.
This comes down to personal Playstyle. I wasnt a huge fan of Dismember, but I do understand what the card does to the deck.
Besides these 3 flexslots that should be filled with reach/removal I see those 57 as set in stone right now.

Spike
03-08-2012, 08:03 AM
Why are you playing the fourth Tarmogoyf instead of the fourth Mongoose? I'm still a bit unsure which creature I should cut, besides that I agree with you that this list is the optimum atm.

ImpinAintEasy
03-08-2012, 09:23 AM
Worse Pierce, although it would be better against the degenerate decks.

I'm just finishing a small write up on my thoughts on RUG Delver, should go up tonight or tomorrow.

Btw, find me in Indy; we should grab a beer :smile:

Will do and I look forward to the write up. Good Luck and I'll see you there!

I am the brainwasher
03-08-2012, 09:27 AM
Mongoose is fine and stuff (and I wouldn't cut it) but Tarmogoyf is a thousand times better against decks where Mongoose is pretty mediocre.
The full playset of Goyfs and Delvers apply a lot of pressure when you need it, while Goose just stares in front of a lot of things while you want to push through early damage, which will end up costing you games.
The argument of Goyf beeing a worse card because it can be targetted by removal, costs more mana (which is the only relevant aspect at all IMO) or is hit by Spell Snare are somewhat nonsense to me and are negated by the sheer power of the card in Threshold.
All sort of decks need to handle both Delver and Goyf and playing the full 4 of each leaves them up with not beeing able to stop them completely.
Stoneblade for example (which should be the deck that has the most Spotremoval due to StP/Snapcaster) is torn apart by so many cards in this deck that you are able to save Snares for Snapcasters and FoW to Spotremoval to ensure the victory.
Goyf is key in so many situations/MU's that I for myself can't see cutting any of them.

catmint
03-08-2012, 11:10 AM
@Phillip802

My Maindeck configuration loooks like this:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Nimble mongoose
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember
1 Fire/Ice
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island

I`m playing this configuration for months ago and I´m very satisfied with it.

I am playing the exact same list and love it because it is really "streamlined" and honest about the curve. I play 2 more fetches instead of lands to support mongoose better. In fact I like mongoose so much that I am thinking about changin to 3 goyf and 4 mongoose. Playing it turn 2 with mana open feels very good.

Einherjer
03-08-2012, 11:50 AM
I do play 4 Delver/Goyf/Mongoose

I dont like playing vs UWr Stoneblade without having the ability to play a full playset of Mongoose. I play 1 Spell Snare few and in the 3 flex. slots I got 2 Fire//Ice and 1 Chain lighting while playing 6 Duals 8 Fetch. I might change to Chain Lightning to a Spell Snare however..

Greetings

EDIT: As our Dredge-MU is pretty bad - why dont we just play 4 Leyline of the Void? With all our Cantrips it shouldnt be much of a problem to find further lands right?

Avey
03-09-2012, 05:36 PM
more or less i play a classic (the classic one with delver..) canadian ***** list and..

..recently i found myself in situation where i didn't want to play surgical extraction against a loaming player postboard, although i had one in hand.. this made me thinking.

rough thoughts:
- the obvious: the loaming player wastes so much time/tempo/mana - if he wants to loam, so be it..(meaning every deck with loam, except 43lands.dec)
- i got stifle (addressed to the last ten pages of this thread: dont ever cut this card from cantresh - EVER)
- with playing delver first turn it feels comfortable only having 1 land in play all game against a constantly loaming player
- from time to time it accurs that you will have just more lands than you intend to have - >feel free to loam&waste<
- if you are getting totally blown of by a single wasteland (happens), just smile. you dont have do deal with their loam (even if you still could cast extraction..).
- there are more minor reasons..

the conclusion: i dont want to board extraction against loam. am i crazy?

besides:
against which decks you really want to board grudge and why?
just to mention two:
- decks with chalice #reason: obvious
- affinity #reason: targets 83% of their deck

stay tuned

rancOr_
03-09-2012, 06:33 PM
Agree- I think that totally depends on the situation but yes, surgical extraction is underperforming. I play cages as I dont really need extraction that much since the combo mu is alrdy good and its not worth the slots vs random loam.. and even then its mediocre at times like u said. Cages really boost the Ichorid/(reanimator) MU (which is played alot more then the decks where I really NEED surgical).

cheerios
03-09-2012, 10:49 PM
Has everyone completely cut Snapcaster out of their configurations?

Avey
03-10-2012, 02:43 AM
yes.

Einherjer
03-10-2012, 04:16 AM
Yes, no Snapcasters here.

To bring back the topic I wanted to start last page....
Leyline of the Void vs Grafediggers Cage

Even though you have to mull for LotV our deck should be able to find enough lands to stabilize with our 8 cantrips, grafediggers cage on the other hand wont rescue us from the T1 Dredge-I-Kill-You when were on the draw... So Id really play the Leylines?

What do you think?

I am the brainwasher
03-10-2012, 06:25 AM
No Snapcasters here, also.
Don't miss it.

Blitzbold
03-10-2012, 06:52 AM
4-of each Nimble Mongoose, Tarmogoyf and Delver here. I considered a single Snapcaster, but how often are you realistically seeing him?

As for GY Hate, I am currently using a mixture of 2x Tormod's Crypt and a single Surgical Extraction. Additionally, as sideboard space is as scarcely as ever, I am considering a single Engineered Explosives again. It won't help vs. Reanimator, but blows up Zombie Tokens, Germs or Mother of Runes all day long. 2x Crypt + Extraction + 2-3 Pierce +x is a lot to bring in vs. Reanimator, though, so I am fine with only 3 dedicated GY hate in this MU.

I am rather concerned about the Maverick matchup, as it seems to have establised itself as the go-to aggro deck at the moment. Maybe it's just me, but I hate dealing with mother-protected Knights. Because of this I tried to explore other decks most recently, for example UBr with a strong tempo package as well as Torpor Orbs and Dreadnoughts. Black offers Massacre, Perish and Virtue's Ruin amongst others which are looking great in the current meta.

I am the brainwasher
03-10-2012, 07:10 AM
The Maverick MU is not that bad that I would consider changing to a different approach of Tempo... .
It is definetly one of the more exhausting MU's, but it is definetly winnable.
The more Fire/Ice you play, the better it gets and simply don't let you trick into getting rid of cards the Maverick player is trying to presents as threads that are weaksauce in reality(current board state). I have witnessed so often that Tempo players lost games because they made the mistake to let the Maverick player dictate what is a thread instead of deciding on their own what gives them the biggest advantage turns/tempo-wise.

cheerios
03-10-2012, 10:21 AM
Thanks for your responses, I used to run 4 Goyfs, 4, Delver, and 3 Nimbles then switched the nimbles for 3 snaps. Between the two builds, I'd choose the Nimble build over snapcasters. The snapcaster with no nimbles build was underwhelming so I switched to a build with both snaps and nimbles. The deck works fine but requires you to play 3 lands at all times, which is kinda difficult with 18 lands. I'm think of ditching snaps to.

As for graveyard hate, I'd stick to good old Tormod's crypt for the nimble builds. It has the added bonus of shrinking opposing Knights.

Regarding the Maverick matchup, do you guys sideout stifle? Some people have advised me to side them out but based on experience, I just never feel comfortable playing this deck without stifle.

I am the brainwasher
03-10-2012, 10:29 AM
Siding in Crypts against Maverick? Really?
Im outta here:laugh:.
I advice the boarding-plan of Spartan a few pages back for the Maverick MU. This is really close to the optimum.

cheerios
03-10-2012, 11:17 AM
Siding in Crypts against Maverick? Really?
Im outta here:laugh:.
I advice the boarding-plan of Spartan a few pages back for the Maverick MU. This is really close to the optimum.

hahaha! Not really, what I board in is 2 clasm effects, and 4 submerge. I woudn't put in tormods. Just saying he could if he wanted to. But I really prefer Tormod's versus Cage, dredge players usually board in nature's claim/ancient grudge post board, you can respond against artifact removal with Tormod's while with Cage, you cannot; however, one can still argue that you can protect cage with counterspells.

spartan117
03-11-2012, 06:47 AM
hahaha! Not really, what I board in is 2 clasm effects, and 4 submerge. I woudn't put in tormods. Just saying he could if he wanted to. But I really prefer Tormod's versus Cage, dredge players usually board in nature's claim/ancient grudge post board, you can respond against artifact removal with Tormod's while with Cage, you cannot; however, one can still argue that you can protect cage with counterspells.

Actually cage is way more versatile than crypt, being able not only to stop any graveyard shenanigans (aside from Life From The Loam), but also to turn off entire strategies/engines/decks such as reanimator and dredge.

Cage is very useful in far more many MUs than crypt.

-Against ANT, it completely shuts down Pif, forcing them to board in their bouncers or die from ad nauseam at a low life total. (crypt does almost the same though).

-Against Elves it stops their gsz and natural orders. (which crypt does not)

-Against Nic Fit no more GSZ, recurring nightmare and flashbacked cabal therapy (crypt here doesn't work)

-You could side it in against GW(r) Maverick if you want to, but you aren't surely siding in the crypts.


But talking more specifically about the way these two cards interact with opponents' graveyard, cage as a major upside: let's make an example.

Opponent is playing reanimator, he has no bounce spells in hand/didn't side them in: he's dead to cage. Otherwise, if you have crypt on board, he does a simple thing. He tries to reanimate something, you crack you crypt in response, and then your hate is gone. Opponent is now back in the game.

Against dredge: they cannot force you to crack your cage by flashbacking ancient grudge from the grave, unlike tormod's crypt. Sure, with crypt you removed his grave, but just the little portion he needed to find an ancient grudge. With cage, he's forced to have an answer to it already in hand. This lets you counter their bouncer/claim being flashbacked therapies-proof.

To me it's that simple: cage>>>tormod's crypt.

If I were to play a sideboard with heavy grave-hate, it would start with 2 cages 2 surgical extractions, to cover all kinds of grave recursion.

Hope this helps :wink:

I am the brainwasher
03-11-2012, 08:10 AM
Opponent is playing reanimator, he has no bounce spells in hand/didn't side them in: he's dead to cage.

Not quite. Reanimator often boards in Show and Tell (which shouldn't resolve anyway due to REB/Pierce/Daze/FoW).

I agree with most of your statements.
Cage is more versatile, but I am not willing to spend more than 3 SB-slots for GY-based strategies, so I play Crypt/SE currently. When the meta shifts toward something that justifies a sideboard which is dedicated to beat decks where Cage's the deadline I would propably play 4 (3/1 SE).
I for myself feel not very comfortable boarding in these cards against Nic Fit or NO right now because a lot of players board out the NO package anyway and having a cage when it doesn't do enough is a lack of value that is back breaking IMO.
It might be that I underestimate the card (still) based upon the lack efficient tests with it though. The fact that the card costs a generic mana is also not that irrelevant.

spartan117
03-11-2012, 09:34 AM
Not quite. Reanimator often boards in Show and Tell (which shouldn't resolve anyway due to REB/Pierce/Daze/FoW).

I agree with most of your statements.
Cage is more versatile, but I am not willing to spend more than 3 SB-slots for GY-based strategies, so I play Crypt/SE currently. When the meta shifts toward something that justifies a sideboard which is dedicated to beat decks where Cage's the deadline I would propably play 4 (3/1 SE).
I for myself feel not very comfortable boarding in these cards against Nic Fit or NO right now because a lot of players board out the NO package anyway and having a cage when it doesn't do enough is a lack of value that is back breaking IMO.
It might be that I underestimate the card (still) based upon the lack efficient tests with it though. The fact that the card costs a generic mana is also not that irrelevant.

Just to be clear: In no way reanimator is ever going to beat us consistently, show and tell is pure garbage against use, it's too costy for a deck which plays about 17 lands and needs to get through opposing daze and pierce (or reb).

However, I think 3 grave-hate slots are the perfect number, but I really can't find room for the third one, therefore I play only 2 cages.
I'd like you to give them a try against nic fit, you halve their ability to put a veteran explorer into play, and completely make them unable to sacrifice it. I strongly suggest them, but after all it comes to personal choices and playstyle...

JJ-JKidd
03-11-2012, 09:50 PM
Dropped the Snaps a long time ago. But what amuses me is the CB-Top package. I have a few questions, though:

1. Where do you, and do you not board it in?

2. What role (in the game) do you play if in case you board it in? Tempo? Control?

Btw, moving towards the inclusion of Though Scour(s). Not sure, however, on the Forked Bolt that Caleb was running @ GP.

Ziveeman
03-12-2012, 01:39 AM
4-of each Nimble Mongoose, Tarmogoyf and Delver here. I considered a single Snapcaster, but how often are you realistically seeing him?

As for GY Hate, I am currently using a mixture of 2x Tormod's Crypt and a single Surgical Extraction. Additionally, as sideboard space is as scarcely as ever, I am considering a single Engineered Explosives again. It won't help vs. Reanimator, but blows up Zombie Tokens, Germs or Mother of Runes all day long. 2x Crypt + Extraction + 2-3 Pierce +x is a lot to bring in vs. Reanimator, though, so I am fine with only 3 dedicated GY hate in this MU.

I am rather concerned about the Maverick matchup, as it seems to have establised itself as the go-to aggro deck at the moment. Maybe it's just me, but I hate dealing with mother-protected Knights. Because of this I tried to explore other decks most recently, for example UBr with a strong tempo package as well as Torpor Orbs and Dreadnoughts. Black offers Massacre, Perish and Virtue's Ruin amongst others which are looking great in the current meta.

Have you considered Cursed Totem? I haven't personally tested it (no time and whatever time I have right now is toward testing for the PTQ in my area soon) but I feel it like would do a lot of work in the Maverick matchup. It shuts off Noble Hierarch, Dryad Arbor, Mother of Runes, Stoneforge Mystic, Knight of the Reliquary, Scryb Ranger etc. While it doesn't stop Knight, at least it forces the Maverick player to play as just a GW Aggro instead of a GW Aggro and Tricks kinda deck. Wasteland also becomes a lot more effective since their mana dorks don't produce mana. Qasali Pridemage can't kill it either.Just spitballing here at least. Not sure if it is THAT effective.

JeroenC
03-12-2012, 03:21 AM
While watching the coverage, I heard Caleb Durward say he uses Sulfur Elemental against Maverick. I put some in my SB for the tournament yesterday but didn't get paired vs Maverick.
However, I do like it, it takes out Mom and Thalia cleanly, also Mindcensor if they run him. It keeps Knight in burnrange longer, but if you run the Forked Bolt a lot of people seemed to run, it also gets a lot of their other guys on 1 toughness. Of course, it is a little more meh vs non-Thalia lists I think.

Justin
03-12-2012, 09:26 AM
Sulfur Elemental will also be good against decks that run Lingering Souls, which Legacy will probably be seeing more of after Indy.

Einherjer
03-12-2012, 09:50 AM
This is the list of Kenny Castor. I think its pretty much the optimum. But why Fork Bolt > Fire//Ice - I play F/I at this slot. He placed second for all who didnt know it.

Greetings




4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
18 lands

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12 creatures



4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Forked Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
30 other spells


Sideboard
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Counterbalance
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Submerge
3 Surgical Extraction

Blitzbold
03-12-2012, 10:53 AM
Kenny's list (and board) is as stock as it can get. 12 efficient beaters, the common counter suite including Stifle instead of the Pierce which came in vogue recently, a single top (signaling CB/Top from the board) and 6 burn spells.

Even Forked Lightning isn't new tech. Mayve he realised during testing that he uses Fire more often than Ice, so he replaced F/I with Forked Lightning. It's a cheaper version of the red half, it's worst drawback being sorcery speed. It however get's the job done to kill early MoR's, Delver or whatever weenie one might encounter.

When looking at Caleb's list (who took a remarkedly different approach) some questions arise for me: are those additional (conditional!) counters (Snare, Pierce) really necessary or can they substituted with more draw, library manipulation and burn? How valid is this result considering Caleb is a highly skilled player and therefore probably could get away with such a (seemingly) suboptimal list? I'd also love to hear about his matches and which sideboard cards he got to use.

DrHealex
03-12-2012, 11:14 AM
I believe they run forked bolt over fire/ice or chain lightning simply because it is a sorcery and you really want to get goyf at its max as soon as possible and not waste dmg on targets, win goyf wars, and 2 dmg kills roughly the same things as 3.

I feel like at least one life from the loam is too good not to include in the 75.

Edit: yarg beat me too it

I am the brainwasher
03-12-2012, 11:16 AM
I like that lists with keeping in mind what the american meta looks like. I would not recommend to play that CB-package blindly into your local or even european meta though.
I also like myself a good ol Fire/ice more than a cheaper downgrade and I still think the card (Fire/Ice) is insane.
Going up to 12 creatures is possible if you can tweak the MU's where you don't want to see a lot of guys (CB anyone?) and as said above, I think that list is looking fine for the meta he stepped into.
I am just a bit uncomfortable with seeing that the biggest douches go to the GP finals with that deck. GP Amsterdam was no exception when it comes down to that... .

Einherjer
03-12-2012, 11:45 AM
Whats the big difference between this two metas ATM which should enable ppl to play CB in the US and not in Europe? HighTide is everywhere, only burn might be a little more prevalent in the US.

Mark Sun
03-12-2012, 02:29 PM
I like Forked Bolt a lot, actually, in theory. We had a small think-tank of myself, Justin Uppal, and Scott Ruggerio on Friday night. Justin had three Byes, so it was just Scott and me playing in the Grinders. After we each lost to Maverick to get knocked out of our respective grinders, the three of us got together and decided that there was a need for an effect like Fire/Ice to generate on-board card advantage against Maverick. It splits damage against Noble Hierarch, Dryad Arbor, Scryb Ranger, and most importantly Mother of Runes. It does the exactly same thing against Stoneforge Mystic that Chain Lightning would do. Scott ran Fire/Ice in his maindeck, and I didn't want to because it was too mana intensive (2 mana is a lot in this deck). I was on Forked Bolt instead, but got some disapproving feedback so I ultimately chose not to run them.

I actually caught up with Caleb after Day 1 at dinner and we had a short chat after it; I will probably look into running them in the future, at least at a couple of smaller events so I can gauge their effectiveness. I can get behind the Sorcery to feed Goyf and the damage split, for sure.

Btw, I finished 11-4 with the list here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23301-RUG-Delver-splits-Top-4-at-Cash-Tourney-(Columbus-Ohio)) and one minor change. At the Grinder, I played -1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Pyroclasm, but at the main event, I cut the Ancient Grudge for a fourth Submerge instead. My matchups were:

Day 1

R1: Bye
R2: W Reanimator 2-0
R3: W TES 2-1
R4: L BW Stoneblade 1-2
R5: L Bant 0-2
R6: W BUG Control 2-1
R7: W Burn 2-0
R8: W UW Thopters 2-0
R9: W UW Stoneblade 2-0

Day 2

R10: W High Tide 2-1
R11: W UW Stoneblade 2-1
R12: L High Tide 1-2
R13: L Past in Flames 1-2
R14: W RUG Delver 2-1
R15: W Punishing Maverick 2-0

Finished 11-4 and 48th, so I got $200 and a Pro Point.

I had to play against Alix piloting High Tide in Round 12 and we got a mini "everyone-gather-around" fake feature, so that was pretty cool, even if I lost. I had not been missing REB/Pyroblast at all in the sideboard, but I was genuinely scared for this matchup without having extra help to bring in. I will most likely be writing a report, so I'll try to post it here soon.

aaronm678
03-12-2012, 06:39 PM
R13: L Past in Flames 1-2


I'm not Past in Flames, I'm just straight ANT. Glad to see you moneyed!

juppal
03-12-2012, 08:23 PM
My GP performance was underwhelming, did not play against maverick all day and did not day two even with 3 byes. The best performance I had was in the 8 round TCG 1k, where I split the top 4. My matches for the GP went

Round 1-3 Byes
Round 4: Aluren 2-0 (Drew Idioux, I know him from a lot of events, and Aluren is pretty much his deck to play for most events
Round 5: Belcher 2-1
Round 6: Enchantress 1-2
Round 7: Mono Red Painter's Grindstone 1-2
Round 8:Stoneblade splashing black for lingering souls 0-2
My board was really prepped to beat the Maverick matchup, with 4 submerge and 2 Mind harness ( cut a surgical and made the remaining ones into tormod's crypts and cut the two REBs for the 2nd harness and 4th submerge). I never felt like I was completely out of any game at all excluding the lingering souls matchup, where I completely tilited after game 1. Matchups for the 1k went
Round 1: Elves combo 2-1
Round 2: Maverick 2-0 ( yeah, I know, I did not believe it was possible either)
Round 3: 70 card mirror 2-1
Round 4: Mirror without CB/top 2-0
Round 5: Elves Combo: 1-2
Round 6: Thopter/Depths 2-0
Round 7: Maverick 2-1
Round 8: ID
Top 8: Same guy from round 5 on elves 2-1
Only change after the GP was cutting a mind harness for a third crypt since I expected a bit more dredge in the 1k.

Einherjer
03-13-2012, 02:01 AM
I dont know how to put this in a nice way...

Im sure you two are a bit disappointed by your performance - because you used to be soo good - especially you Morbid with your T8 Series. Do you two think its time to get back to Stifle (not that I ever abandoned it) or was it just bad luck?

Greetings and sorry for anything that might look like an insult - wasnt meant to :)

JeroenC
03-13-2012, 03:30 AM
I dont know how to put this in a nice way...

Im sure you two are a bit disappointed by your performance - because you used to be soo good - especially you Morbid with your T8 Series. Do you two think its time to get back to Stifle (not that I ever abandoned it) or was it just bad luck?

Greetings and sorry for anything that might look like an insult - wasnt meant to :)

Are you really implying that getting 48th at a GP is a "bad finish"?:laugh:

Good job Morbid, well played. Right now I'm still leaning more toward F//I than Forked to play, how did Scott like them?
Also, I run Dismember instead of Chain Lightning in my deck, am I the only person that runs Dismember or are there others that like the "bigger" removal (almost always cleans up Goyf, gives more chances vs Knight and Ooze, etc)

Einherjer
03-13-2012, 05:18 AM
No no no no no, I knew I wouldnt be able to put it right the first time - 48th is a great finish and I might not be able to score this for myself. BUT 2 Stifle-Canadians are in Top8 and I dont think Morbid is a worse player than Kenny Castor for example... Got what I wanna say?
Good players with different cards. Canadians with Stifle score Top8 - these without dont. Maybe its just because of the numerous prevelance of Stifle-Canadian.

Greetings

RogueMTG
03-13-2012, 10:40 AM
...
Also, I run Dismember instead of Chain Lightning in my deck, am I the only person that runs Dismember or are there others that like the "bigger" removal (almost always cleans up Goyf, gives more chances vs Knight and Ooze, etc)

I played Dismember at the GP, and it's hard to say. I mean, I killed one or two Tarmogoyfs to break a stall, but I was also missing the reach of some additional burn. I lost 2 matches with my opponents at 1-2 life in game 3 where Fire/Ice, Forked Bolt or Chain Lightning would have won it instead of the dead Dismember in hand.

I'm not sure either is "optimal" over the other. Often comes down to what you're playing against. :-/

ImpinAintEasy
03-13-2012, 10:51 AM
Much like Juppal, my GP wasn't as planned either.

I played this list:

4 Misty
4 Tarn
3 Tropical
3 Volcanic
4 Wasteland
1 Island

4 Tarmo
4 Delver
3 Nimble
2 Snappy

4 FOW
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Bolt
2 Chain Light
1 Top
1 Dismember
3 Pierce
2 Snare
3 Daze

SB
3 Crypt
3 Submerge
2 Mind Harness
3 Counterbalance
2 Top
1 Grip
1 Grudge

Rd 1 beat Sneak Show 2-0
Rd 2 beat Bant Maverick 2-0
Rd 3 beat ANT 2-1 - dropped game 1, CB got there in game 2 and game 3 was close
Rd 4 beat Blazing Shoal/Show n Tell Infect build that was interesting
Rd 5 Lost to Garret Young Belcher 2-0
Rd 6 Lost to Jack Elgin 2-0 with Maverick (had serious land issues game 2)
Rd 7 Lost to Thopter Foundry 1-2 on the 5th turn of overtime, but it wouldn't of matter as a draw wouldn't of gotten me to day 2 anyways.

Had tons of fun thought and got some serious trading going on, pimped out some of my deck and am not the proud owner of the following foils:

2 Wasteland
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Ponder
4 Spell Pierce
2 FNM Foil Brainstorm
Unhinged Island
4 Textless foil bolt
2 Chain Lightning
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Delvers

Sorry I never caught up to you Mark, maybe at Gencon we can get that beer! I did catch up to a few other sourcers (random, Rukcus and Juppal) and was glad to meet them!

Had a great time for my first GP event ever!

juppal
03-13-2012, 04:18 PM
I dont know how to put this in a nice way...

Im sure you two are a bit disappointed by your performance - because you used to be soo good - especially you Morbid with your T8 Series. Do you two think its time to get back to Stifle (not that I ever abandoned it) or was it just bad luck?

Greetings and sorry for anything that might look like an insult - wasnt meant to :)

I actually thought about this before the 1k started, to be honest, stifle rivals spell pierce in it's usefulness in most matchups, the issue comes with the mirror. In the third round of the 1k, I played against a guy playing the mirror without spell pierce and stifle in it's place. Obviously, only three games were played, but aat critical moment in which he bolted my delver to stop me from racing his double goyfs, I surprised him with spell pierce and gave me the ability to win the 1st game. He did stifle a fetch of mine, but sadly, the mirror actually goes long compared to other matchups, stifle loses value very quickly after the 3rd land drop. Spell pierce was incredible vs elves combo. I stopped his chords, glimpse and GSZ, all without losing card advantage. Spell pierce is a very valuable 1 for 1 trade that can create surprise blowout. I still think spell pierce is superior to stifle.

wcm8
03-13-2012, 06:02 PM
Let's talk about the new tech to come from the Grand Prix.

Sulfur Elemental is obviously a way to kill Mother of Runes and keep future Moms off the board, but it also serves as an answer to Lingering Souls if that card catches on. The split second makes it especially relevant against control decks. The weird part though is that it pumps white creatures with toughness > 1, so it could end up hurting if there are already some Knights or Pridemages on the table. Still, it is a very interesting sideboard inclusion. I could also see U/R Delver counter-burn decks run this card, since they can also have trouble with cards like Mother of Runes or something ridiculous like Burrenton Forge Tender.

It's also not too bad as a pseudo Ambush Viper, and could possibly get a Knight or other big guy into Bolt range (though having 4 mana is definitely a luxury and this is a corner case use).

Forked Bolt has been discussed previously and I'm sure some people have already adopted it early. That said, the Grand Prix results have shown that the 'Fire' effect is very powerful. Costing just one mana can make it more relevant than Fire//Ice in the early turns, especially on the draw. Additionally, not costing two can be huge in the mirror match against opposing Snares/Dazes. There aren't too many commonly-played creatures in Legacy that would survive 2 damage but not 3, and while it is true that 1 damage can sometimes mean the difference between winning and losing, obviously this card's first priority is to be used as removal for small creatures. I think we will see many RUG builds adopt this card over the Chain Lightning/Fire//Ice slot. Fire//Ice is still good though since the blue side can be relevant (and of course, is an instant and pitches to FoW).

Scavenging Ooze was played in Caleb's list, and I'm not sure how I really feel about it as a singleton, particularly in a deck that's not running GSZ nor running a healthy supply of green sources. He did mention cutting down to just ONE Tarmogoyf and running a single Zenith, though I'm still dubious about this. I think just running multiples of the efficient tempo creatures is the best approach.

I am the brainwasher
03-13-2012, 06:33 PM
Instant conclusion:

Sulfur Elemental
-As long as the Esper-Blade variant of TomM doesn't infest the meta im playing in, I don't see myself wanting that effect. I do not see the necessity for it against Maverick and I think that this particular list had a reason to run it, but nothing more.
When the Esper-Blade estblishes, I might think twice before dismissing it though (the MU seems pretty even, favouring the Esper-Blade when you can't cut it off of mana. So, reasonable).


Forked Bolt
-This on the other hand is something I would recommend to consider running when there is a lot of Maverick/Elves/getting value when cast against it.deck around.
I am pretty happy with F/I but I can not deny the fact that the manacost does matter here. Owning opposing Delver's (I expect a whole lot of mirror going on in the near future) is way more real with it but for now I stick to maximum flexibility.


Scavenging Ooze
-A niche card stays a niche card and this is nothing more. While this can be huge sometimes, it is underwhelming most of the time.
Playing a situational lategame-esque card somehow doesn't seem right to me... .
A huge gun that might (or better almost will) backfire, if you hit the target, fine, but I am not willing to take that risk in one of the most straight-forward decks.

CalebD
03-14-2012, 01:37 AM
Sulfur Elemental
-As long as the Esper-Blade variant of TomM doesn't infest the meta im playing in, I don't see myself wanting that effect. I do not see the necessity for it against Maverick and I think that this particular list had a reason to run it, but nothing more.


Disagree strongly. Mother, Thalia, and KoTR are the problem cards in the matchup, and answering them with Sulfur+Submerge flips things around post board.

lordofthepit
03-14-2012, 01:50 AM
Hey Caleb, do you have any comments on how the singleton Ooze did for you? In general, I think Ooze is a much better creature than Tarmogoyf in the current metagame, but RUG Delver is one of the few decks where I'd rather have Goyf still.

Mark Sun
03-14-2012, 02:06 AM
No no no no no, I knew I wouldnt be able to put it right the first time - 48th is a great finish and I might not be able to score this for myself. BUT 2 Stifle-Canadians are in Top8 and I dont think Morbid is a worse player than Kenny Castor for example... Got what I wanna say?
Good players with different cards. Canadians with Stifle score Top8 - these without dont. Maybe its just because of the numerous prevelance of Stifle-Canadian.

Greetings

I understand what you were saying. For the record, I've never met or played against Kenny but anyone who can make it to a GP Top 8 has to be very good and competent at this game. I tested both versions (3 Stifle vs. 3 Spell Pierce in those slots) and came to the conclusion that Stifle was better against the Top 3 decks in the format going into the GP: UW Stoneblade, GWx Maverick, and the mirror, and would be a great choice for the GP.

I suppose some of the root causes for that theory not working out is that the format is still fairly diverse (30% Top 3 decks, 70% rest of the format) and Stifle may have been better against those decks, as they all comprise a path to the Top 8 if you can get there. I'll be going over notes and reflecting on the weekend when I have more time, just a little burnt out from the trip. I will say, though, that Stifle would have been better in some of my losses, but it's unfair to say that it would have been better overall, as Spell Pierce played a huge role in a lot of my wins on the weekend.



Right now I'm still leaning more toward F//I than Forked to play, how did Scott like them?
Also, I run Dismember instead of Chain Lightning in my deck, am I the only person that runs Dismember or are there others that like the "bigger" removal (almost always cleans up Goyf, gives more chances vs Knight and Ooze, etc)

We all agreed that Fire/Ice has more utility, since it can pitch to Force of Will and is an Instant. It can also tap a Knight so your guys can get through. I just want my removal to be efficient as possible; paying 2 for a removal spell, especially when you may be in situations where you are playing against Thalia or Mother + guy on the draw, you don't want to be paying 3. I have to go back to the drawing board after this past weekend, so we will have to see. I'm looking over notes and finding potential candidates for the weaker slots. I'll start with Forked Bolt over Chain Lightning and see where it goes.

I am the brainwasher
03-14-2012, 07:25 AM
Disagree strongly. Mother, Thalia, and KoTR are the problem cards in the matchup, and answering them with Sulfur+Submerge flips things around post board.

Thalia hasn't seen much play over here lateley, so different point of views might be based upon that. Wrecking only Mother of Runes and coincedental getting a KotR in Bolt-range (which I almost never had the chance to against good players) doesn't seem as saucy as owning about 7 cards in total, that is true.
When Thalia becomes a trend (which it might/will, same as L.Souls) you already made the correct decision in foresight, that is true.
Depending on which decks are going to define the future meta, I might lean towards the Elemental, but often a simple clasm effect offers a bit more versatility I would prefer in an open meta.

Einherjer
03-14-2012, 07:31 AM
Caleb, would you suggest us players to play a Tempo-Deck without Spell Snares? Or is it just you with your magic talent, Mr. Legacy-weapon - that you can beat a meta of CC2 drops without the aquivalent counterspell?


Agreed that the Elemental will get better with the rise of Thalia -and this rise will happen or already did - the only thing missing is the amount of tournaments played while the release in both, US and Europe...

Greetings

Ziveeman
03-14-2012, 11:15 AM
Sure the RUG decks that Top 8'd ran Stifle, but do we know what percentage of RUG decks ran Stifle vs not running Stifle? For all we know, Morbid, juppal, and ImpinAintEasy may have been the only ones not running Stifle and obviously (despite these guys being good players) that isn't great odds. It isn't exactly a valid comparison.

Einherjer
03-14-2012, 12:33 PM
Ye if you read my post more carefuly youd have been realising that I said excactly this. --> "Maybe its just because of the numerous prevelance of Stifle-Canadian."

What do you guys board out vs Maverick? I just wanna compare mine and your plan - and what do you take out for the CB vs Stoneblade?

When I fight Maverick I board 2Submerge2Harness in and 1 SDT + 1 Stifle +1 Ponder +1 Daze out...

When I board in the CB package vs Stoneblade (5 slots) I tried boarding out FoW and a Daze... but im not completely sure and im going to a BoM trial soon - so any help would be appreciated.

Greetings

Mark Sun
03-14-2012, 12:44 PM
I board out -4 Force of Will, -3 Nimble Mongoose vs. +4 Submerge, +1 Mind Harness, +2 Krosan Grip. I don't think you want to board out cantrips almost ever, unless you're boarding in the Tops from the sideboard. This helps you keep your deck velocity high so you can actually find your sideboard cards. I like Krosan Grips here because you will lose to Equipment if you can't answer them; they're pretty threat dense.

CalebD
03-14-2012, 08:39 PM
Re: Stifle. Until people start playing mono colored decks without activated or triggered abilities, stifle will be a stronger card in the archetype. Atm, Mongooses are the best threat vs the field, and stifle answers the most popular sweepers (EE, Deed) as well as time walking the opponent so the extra turn to get thresh vs flip a delver doesn't matter.

It also protects the deck's manabase, which is crucial in a deck with 6 mana producing lands.

Despite this, almost all of my friends that were on Thresh played pierces and snares, and I didn't see another set of stifles until I got into the top eight.

Re: Ooze. Talking about it in my article this week. It was consistently goyf #3, which means it sucked. I boarded out my two drop critters every chance I got.

Re: Spell Snare. I didn't like the card going into the tournament because it's so situational, but obv kenny did fine with them. Shrug.

For the record, "___ is a good player so he can get away with running crap" is a bad argument. Just because you don't see the line that wins doesn't mean you don't have the right tools for the job, and a player can't do well unless he both has the tools and uses them correctly.

I am the brainwasher
03-14-2012, 09:13 PM
I tried out playing without Stifle once in a tourney after a bit of test and the first thing I did after the last round was pulling out my cards instantly and switched it back.
Playing against Nic Fit and Dredge felt like beeing a virgin on a pirate ship, plus that disgusting feeling of drawing a whole lot of awkward/risky hands, and I am not even talking about the inability of cutting the opponent off of mana.

lordofthepit
03-14-2012, 09:21 PM
I tried out playing without Stifle once in a tourney after a bit of test and the first thing I did after the last round was pulling out my cards instantly and switched it back.
Playing against Nic Fit and Dredge felt like beeing a virgin on a pirate ship, plus that disgusting feeling of drawing a whole lot of awkward/risky hands, and I am not even talking about the inability of cutting the opponent off of mana.

Stifling an Explorer trigger (especially in this deck that runs 0 basics and relies on mana denial to advance its tempo plan) or a Narcomoeba/Bridge trigger isn't the worst.

Stifle doesn't have great value in those matchups, but it's by no means a dead card. I'd certainly rather have that than Spell Snare, for instance.

Moosedog
03-14-2012, 10:34 PM
Stifling an Explorer trigger (especially in this deck that runs 0 basics and relies on mana denial to advance its tempo plan) or a Narcomoeba/Bridge trigger isn't the worst.

Stifle doesn't have great value in those matchups, but it's by no means a dead card. I'd certainly rather have that than Spell Snare, for instance.

What exactly are you snaring in the dredge match?

lordofthepit
03-14-2012, 10:38 PM
What exactly are you snaring in the dredge match?

Nothing. Which is why I don't want Spell Snare.

lordofthepit
03-15-2012, 06:19 AM
Re: Ooze. Talking about it in my article this week. It was consistently goyf #3, which means it sucked. I boarded out my two drop critters every chance I got.

I'm surprised you didn't like Goyf in this deck. I agree that Delver and Nimble Mongoose are better in RUG Tempo, but Goyf is clearly the best of the rest (and is the trump card in the mirror).

What was your opinion on Snapcaster Mage? Not a big fan of him in a deck with 14 "real" lands.

Einherjer
03-15-2012, 01:12 PM
What do you people normally board out when bringing in a CB-Package vs Stoneblade? Force and F//I?

Greetings

Dyvith
03-15-2012, 04:43 PM
So I'm assuming that people noticed that both of the RUG Delver decks that top 8ed the GP ran a countertop board. Why not just main deck this package? This was something I spent a lot of time thinking about, and I came up with this conclusion for a deck list:

4 Mongoose
4 Delver
4 Goyf

4 Force
4 Daze
3 Counter Balance

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 S.D.Top

4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt

2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

SB:

2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nature's Claim
2 Ancient Gruge
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
2 Submerge

While this is just a rough sketch, do we really need to run CB/Top in the board? Why not in the main

Mark Sun
03-15-2012, 09:45 PM
I honestly wouldn't mind that. When I looked at the Top 10 deck data from The Council in preparation for the GP, I got this:

http://manadeprived.com/wp-content/uploads/TierDecks22012.jpg

Counterbalance is good against the mirror, UW, Reanimator, Burn, and Storm. The only thing that the inclusion of the Counterbalance package would hurt is the matchup against the GWx Knight decks, and the other decks within the Tier decks up above are still a small enough portion of the metagame to focus too much attention to. With maindeck Counterbalance, we're likely throwing the GWx Knight deck matchup away even more Game 1. Definitely worth looking into, however. 3/3 split is mandatory of Sensei's Divining Top and Counterbalance, and likely 19 Lands.