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Nihil Credo
05-17-2009, 02:18 PM
Tempo Threshold Primer
by Shugyosha



Prelude

Threshold decks in the current metagame are rarely distinguished by color alone due to a growing number of card combinations that are usually more defining for the deck than the splash color one adds to the basic UG shell.

The card combination Stifle / Wasteland is the key feature of the so called Tempo Threshold archetype designed by Lam Phan. Stifle's primary use during the first few turns of the game is to counter fetchland activations while Wastelands take care of played non-basic lands to effectively deny your opponent to participate in the game. As you won't always have all the tools to disrupt your opponent's landbase reliably, incoming spells are met by a very powerful suite of counterspells that can be played while using Wastelands due to the low costs: Daze, Spell Snare and Force of Will. Depending on variant and splash color there are also several other ways to deal with spells that will be discussed in detail below. After you wreaked havoc in the earlygame your creatures hit the board (or the Mongoose dropped early will finally have threshold) and make short work of the weakened opponent.

Well, so much for the gameplan. As you might know, plans rarely survive first contact with an enemy and same holds true for the strategy of Tempo Threshold. Cards like Counterbalance, Humility, Solitary Confinement, Moat, creatures of similar or higher powerlevel or simply a very solid manabase can push this archetype into a defensive role quickly. That's the reason why Tempo Threshold usually dedicates several slots to flexible answers to such problems. Within the archetype Tempo Threshold can be easily distinguished by those slots that lead to different mid- to lategame plans (although you don't want to get into the lategame).

This Primer will give you a basic overview of the established variants, their advantages and disadvantages compared to each other and some insight how to use certain key cards. Sideboards and when to play which variant will also be discussed in a more general way at the end of the article. Please keep in mind that the following text is addressed mostly to readers that are not as familiar with Tempo Threshold as longtime players of the deck.

Basic list

Tempo Threshold first surfaced at Gencon in 2007 without a splashcolor:

1 Breeding Pool
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta (later lists added a Forest for a Fetch)
4 Wasteland

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Werebear

4 Brainstorm
4 Portent (became Ponder, see below)
4 Predict
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
1 Rushing River
1 Snapback (became Wipe Away pretty quick)

The UG list shuns removal in order to play 12 creatures and drawspells which lead to a very aggressive and straightforward playstyle. Creatures that hit the board have to be raced. The two bouncespells are your only way to deal with any resolved problem encountered and should be used with great care. Just bouncing a permanent to “gain tempo” without the possibility to counter it, destroying the lands needed to replay it or deal a deadly blow in its absence is something you should avoid. Even bouncing your own creature in face of removal is usually a bad idea as you play enough replacements but loose one of your two most flexible outs. Therefore decks with a high permanent density like beatdown (with many low cost creatures and burn as removal) can give UG a headache. If the aggressive gameplan doesn't come together quickly it is often difficult for the deck to get the last points of damage through a stalled board.
A potent way to combat fast decks (with their low manacurve) is Counterbalance/Top which is therefore often played in the sideboard. So UG can simply switches roles and becomes the control deck after sideboarding. The problem of resolved permanents remain though.

A word about Portent: It has been replaced in every Threshold deck since Ponder has been printed. Although you can draw a beater or a Wasteland directly in your turn with Ponder, there are still unique advantages to run Portent. Looking at the top cards of your opponents library when he desperately needs a land can win you the game alone as you sometimes simply timewalk for one blue mana. Used in conjunction with Predict you can even mill his best card away which seems like a “danger of cool things” situation but actually happens more often than one might expect. The key is to play your drawspells only when you can maximize their effect (or when you are in trouble of course). Especially Predict shouldn't be played blindly.
My teammate and I made the test once and ran UG with Ponder (him) and Portent (me). After the seven rounds of the tournament neither seemed better or worse.


Red variant a.k.a. Canadian Threshold

The reason for red seems evident when you read about the weaknesses of UG Tempo Threshold. It gives you access to Burn which not only acts as removal but can deal the last points of damage if the board is stalled or looks bad:

4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
1 Rushing River
1 Wipe Away
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire / Ice

As you can see eight burnspells replaced four creatures/drawspells which leaves us with a slightly less aggressive list after the initial disrupting strategy because you drop less creatures. Therefore we get more flexible cards to end the game and deal with creature heavy decks. In addition to burn the Ice side of Fire / Ice can support the early disruption strategy by tapping lands without card disadvantage as well as tap attackers and dig for answers on the defense or tap blockers to deal more damage. The two bouncespells are still included for the multitude of cards that burn cannot deal with.

But as brutal as Canadian Threshold is there are still some serious issues to address. First of all compare the landbase of UG and UGR. You will see that the red variant's manabase is very easy to attack too. Although you have Spell Snares (Sinkhole, Life from the Loam -> Wasteland), Stifle (Wasteland) and Fetchlands to delay attacks on your own manabase the core of the problem is that you are defending your manabase instead of disrupting your opponent's manabase as you have no basic lands to fall back to.
The following (tested) manabase could be played in certain LD heavy metagames:

3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Forest
3 Flooded Strand/Polluted Delta
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland

Another problem is the low creature count. As you can't always mulligan to get a creature there can be agonizing games where you left only ruins of your opponent's earlygame attempts but have no creature to take advantage of the situation. Problems got worse with the increased number of removal people seem to play nowadays (Path to Exile as 5th-6th Swords comes to mind). The Shroud ability of your Geese helps to circumvent removal a bit but Mongoose is easily trumped by today's creatures.
I've cut one Fire / Ice to add a Vendilion Clique which seems marginal at first but adds a lot of flexibility. Flash helps you to keep your mana open for countermagic during your opponent's turn and seeing the hand of your opponent is one of the most underrated aspects of many cards (be it discard, Tidehollow Sculler or Clique). Snatching a dredged Loam or another key card out of your opponent's hand is priceless, too. Last but not least a three power flyer can get a lot of damage through in Legacy, where small flyers are rare and flying finishers are hard to cast against a manadenial-deck. Similar reasons and the frailty against a resolved Counterbalance lead some people to add two copies of Trygon Predator main which were rarely good in my testing. Three mana for a creature without Flash often seems too much and Predator still has to live a turn before he has an impact on the board. The same reasoning holds true for Lorescale Coatl by the way which is too expensive for a mostly slow growing threat. Clique in comparison can take care of removal (Sorcery speed or against bad players) and has done something even if it hits the yard before it attacks.

Other possible Creatures that have been used within my Team to some success are Terravore and Werebear. Vore is sadly too hard to cast in a build splashing a third color however but is nice in UG (Relic hurts you anyways). Cutting some Fire / Ice for Werebear gives you the best of both worlds as your manabase becomes indirectly more stable, you have all the creatures you need to be aggressive and you keep some removal/reach (Bolts). All these changes depend on certain metagames to unfold their full potential with Clique being the Joker for unknown metagames.


Black variant

The dark version of Tempo Threshold is usually played because of three reasons. First of all you don't need to run four Werebears and four Predicts each when you can run Dark Confidant instead. The invitational wizard adds a great deal of power to the deck by providing you with more cards for lifepoints which is usually the most expendable resource of an aggressive deck and by being a small beater. The second reason is the addition of hard removal spells like Smother, Diabolic Edict and Ghastly Demise. The final, third reason is the large amount of cards available to adjust your list to the metagame: Discard against control decks (including CounterTop), Engineered Plague as a permanent solution for tribal strategies and Extirpates/Jailers against graveyard-dependant decks.

All of these elements can be splitted between maindeck and sideboard as you see fit. Especially discard and Extirpate are well paired with the aggressive nature of the deck by snatching draw spells to deny manafixing or removing a playset of duals. Again, looking at the hand of your opponent gives you a good idea at which direction your game is heading.

The following list is one I would play in an unknown meta if I had decided to play UGb:

3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Island
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Smother
3 Thoughtseize
1 Rushing River

The disadvantages of the black variant arise from the aforementioned cards mostly. Lifeloss from Confidant/Thoughtseize together with less and slower removal (in comparison to UGr) weakens the aggromatchup again. Confidant, Thoughtseize and also Duress can be bad topdecks.

The changed color priority can also lead to problems: Although the underlying structure of the manabase is basically the same as with Canadian Threshold you will need black earlier than red which can lead to difficult Fetchland decisions and dead green/black cards in your hand. Cutting off Canadian Threshold from red means cutting it off from four cards and four options (Fire / Ice) which are all removal/reach. With black Threshold your splashcolor has draw, creatures, discard and removal.

Team America

Another deck which can be more or less defined as Tempo Threshold is the following list by Dave Gearhart (Deep6er) and Dan Signorini (Nitewolf9):

1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize
4 Snuff Out

Not playing Confidant opens another route with Tombstalker and Snuff Out. The new two mana drop instead of Confidant is Sinkhole which further intensifies the manadenial strategy but also (together with Stalker) shifts the deck's focus more on disruption as the usual spotremoval can now hit all your creatures.

Overall Team America has or should have a more explosive opening game and can keep up the tempo/disruption aspect quite well due to Discard, Sinkhole and Snuff Out as another “free” spell. In addition to that Stalker and Snuff Out don't care about Counterbalance further strengthening the matchups against the control part of the metagame. As with the aforementioned UG and UGb lists Team America also has problems with aggro decks due to few creautures and lifeloss. For more information see the Team America thread.

White variant

Until today no UGw Tempo Threshold list has been consistently good in tournament play. White hasn't much to offer for Tempo Threshold compared to the other colors as its removal works against your gameplan. Knight of the Reliquary is too expensive and clumsy for the Wasteland tutor effect, Jotun Grunt is slow and shrinks the own creatures. The only creature worthwhile seems to be Qasali Pridemage as the guy is seriously undercosted for its effect, solves Goyfstalls and kills annoying cards like Counterbalance (sometimes) and Chalice @ 1. Still the question remains why one shouldn't just add CounterTop to the mix and play in a more controllish fashion.

mossivo1986
05-17-2009, 03:22 PM
(Borrowing your post for more room, sorry Mossivo)


Sideboards

As sideboards should always be tailored to your metagame needs I will only discuss the usual cards that are included in Tempo Threshold Sideboards and why.


Artifact/Enchantment removal: Around three outs for Artifacts/Enchantments, especially for resolved Balances should be in your board. Krosan Grip is the no brainer decision here but splitting between Grip, Engineered Explosive and Ancient Grudge can be of advantage. Explosives is especially good in Canadian Threshold as it gives you hard removal against the creatures that are usually out of burn range (Goyf, Terravore, Dreadnought, Crusher). Trygon Predator can be found in some sideboards, too but as I said he is a bit clumsy. In a metagame with some Enchantress and Affinity decks running around he is solid though.

Aggro / Tribals: Blue Blasts should always be in your board as the most efficient low cost spell against red. Three are sufficient for Canadian Threshold but the other variants may even want to play six (Hydroblast). Massremoval options usually are Pyroclasm and Engineered Plague. Especially Black has trouble keeping up with Tribal Decks and Plague although expensive is still the best sideboard card for this problem. You can also board them against other decks too. Against Affinity for example I usually board a Plague against Cleric (Disciple of the Vault) or even Blinkmoth (Nexus with Plating hurts!) as efficient pre-emptive removal.

Submerge has been reintroduced to Threshold lists some month ago and helps UG and UGr to deal with creatures in an elegant way (Black has hard removal). If the opponent fetches Submerge (in response) is upgraded to a pretty broken hard removal. Creature stealing effects like Threads of Disloyalty or Mind Harness have also been played to exploit the fact that your opponents usually don't board enchantment removal but most people favor Submerge nowadays and with Qasali Pridemage there is another good reason for it. Submerge can also mess up with Counterbalance occasionally. In the end it comes down to your metagame as all three cards are limited to specific colors/creatures.

Control / Combo: Disrupts can be used to make your earlygame (against many decks) even stronger but they are very situational cards and miss the flexibility of most sideboard cards. In Canadian Threshold Red Blasts are locked for three to four slots as they not only win counterwars but can prevent Balances from hitting the board at any stage of the game. On top of that they became good against Tendrilscombo, too as ANT plays some blue cards. Black has additional discard and Extirpates at its disposal.

Graveyard hate: Packing dedicated graveyard hate into your sideboard is usually a futile attempt to deal with occasional Dredge decks. Don't do it unless you know that there will be a lot of decks Crypt/Relic is good against. Extirpate is an exception as it can be good against Control/Combo/Loam, too. But Crypt/Relic/Jailer mostly waste the slots they are sitting in unless of course your metagame is an Oversold Cemetery.

Other: There are matchups where you would like to have more than four Stifles because they can counter so much more than Fetchland activations. Therefore I usually run two Pithing Needle in my Canadian Threshold board. This gives you more room to use Stifle against Fetchlands while stopping Deed, Explosives, etc. with Needles. Shutting down Sensei's Divining Top is another reason to run Needles as the Artifact is on top of the list “Why are my opponent's draws so ridiculous?”
Counterbalance/Top in the sideboard has been mentioned already in the UG section and shouldn't be played in splash variants. If you still want to play this minicombo you better hit the back button of your browser and look for the CounterTop Thread.

Where and why should I play Tempo Threshold

The reason for Threshold's success in general is its flexibility. Not only can the deck be finetuned for specific metagames but also during matches good players can constantly adjust their position/role to the evolving gamestate. Tempo Threshold is no exception to that and is therefore at home at every metagame. Although UG doesn't seem to do the trick anymore it is still a powerful, somehow elegant deck and cheaper than the splash variants.
Canadian Threshold is certainly the best deck of the archetype for unknown metagames and also the best deck of the three against beatdown/tribal decks. It is definitely the most difficult of the three although it seems easy on paper. Only eight creatures and the flexibility of Burn often call for difficult decisions:

Hands without creatures: Happens more often with only eight of them and you have to keep seven cards without one if it has a good mix of manadenial, counters and draw. Going to five for a creature shouldn't be done unless the hand lacks playables anyways. The mulligan decision changes a lot when you know what your opponent plays and when he knows what you play. You have to assess carefully how the hand you are looking at will play out against your opponent, especially when it comes to manadenial. If the opponent is the aggressive deck in the matchup keeping Burn but no creature can actually be better. If the opponent plays a control deck Nimble Mongoose and manadenial is of exceptional high value for a starting hand and no creature hands are problematic.

How to use Burn: You are not playing Goyfsligh. Don't throw a Bolt at your opponent EOT because you have a red mana open. Don't remove creatures that are trying to race you but are actually weaker than yours (unless his burnspells make the math unpredictable). Instead keep burn for creatures that hinder you from attacking. This way your opponent will learn and sometimes even chooses not to block your Goyf with his own as he fears a Burnspell. Use his fear.
The Ice side of Fire / Ice should be used in the same manner. Tap creatures that are too big for you. Don't just tap lands in their upkeep if you don't have a creature to make use of the time bought.
Another difficult part when it comes to burn is boarding: I board out Fire / Ice quite often when there is no creature to kill with it but I rarely board out Bolts. Three points of damage for one mana is still a good finishing spell against most decks and you still need something to kill Goyfs somehow.

Black Threshold should be played in metagames that feature few red decks. Graveyard dependent strategies such as Loam and even Dredge are things UGb can deal with more efficiently than UG or UGr. Control is an even better matchup than with the other variants as you have discard among other tools.

- Shugyosha, TS Crew


Links

A full Threshold primer written by me in German: http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?id=4496
David Caplan's (Goobafish) article about Canadian Threshold: http://www.magiceternal.com/legacy/Legacythresh.html

Nihil Credo
05-17-2009, 03:25 PM
Because U/G/B Tempo Thresh also sees a significant amount of play.

4eak
05-17-2009, 03:28 PM
@ mossivo1986


Im alittle bit confused as to why ugr thresh doesnt cover this.

It is possible to build UGr Thresh that focuses on the CounterTop lock. Some just splash red for Pyroblast and Pyroclasm; for example, http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=24306 (which is UGrw, but it is just an example).

Additionally, you can build Tempo Thresh without red (black splash) .

The splash itself doesn't dictate (enough of) the role of the deck to be the focus of the thread.




peace,
4eak

Waya
05-17-2009, 03:32 PM
Im alittle bit confused as to why ugr thresh doesnt cover this.

Because this thread is a lumping together of U/G/x true threshold decks not using CBT. "Tempo Threshold" is more like classic threshold than the new CBT based "Threshold" decks.

Counterbalance decks have their own thread now, too. This is good, because some of the old "U/G/w CBT Threshold" decks no longer run any graveyard dependent cards. So calling them "threshold" is no longer appropriate.

4eak
05-17-2009, 03:37 PM
@ Waya


Because this thread is a lumping together of U/G/x true threshold decks not using CBT...This is good, because some of the old "U/G/w CBT Threshold" decks no longer run any graveyard dependent cards. So calling them "threshold" is no longer appropriate.

Whether or not this archetype uses the threshold mechanic is not important. Some lists of Tempo Thresh don't run any threshold-mechanic creatures either.

The only appropriate distinction being made is that one archetype focuses on immediate tempo disruption (generally mana disruption) with early wins while the other one seeks to CounterTop softlock. Both are "true" thresh, they just have very different primary goals.





peace,
4eak

mossivo1986
05-17-2009, 03:43 PM
I guess my biggest argument is IF you change the DTB and add in counterbalance whats the real difference between say ugw thresh and ugw counterbalance?

Though I do understand that ugr can be specialized to not be tempo thresh, does that make it viable enough to still have a catagory in the dtb? Won't this just replace it as the other models don't have nearly the impact that tempo thresh does.

UGB tempo thresh should probobly get its own thread as well and replace just ugb thresh then right?

What I mean to say is if were singling out specific models on threshhold, shouldn't they all take the same hit? Other models should probobly be forced into the established deck section.

I guess the counterbalance thing really scews me. If we make a counterbalance thread then I guess we should really be calling this NLU or nassif's model. Maybe im missing something. Let me know.

What you're missing is that ALL "Threshold" threads (and the NLU threads in Established) have been closed. ~NC

Waya
05-17-2009, 03:54 PM
Whether or not this archetype uses the threshold mechanic is not important. Some lists of Tempo Thresh don't run any threshold-mechanic creatures either.


It was specifically the mechanic I was talking about, but the idea of graveyard use in general. Most tempo decks (if not all) run goyf. So while there isn't any true threshold, the concept is still there.

I do agree, the distinction between the two archetypes is made based on one being about soft-lock control and the other being about disruption aggro.

I actually keep remaking mine and go back and forth between the two. I think I like tempo better. I just keep getting scared that my Confidant in U/G/b is going to pull up a FoW at the wrong time (so I tend to run SDT but no CB).

Happy Gilmore
05-17-2009, 09:09 PM
This thread is open to discussion of any list that satisfies the following criteria:

1) Plays Tarmogoyf and at least one other threat
2) Plays Force of Will and more than four cantrips
3) Does not play maindeck Counterbalance
4) Plays a significant amount of mana-stunting tools, most commonly Daze, Stifle, and Wasteland
5) Focuses its game plan on deploying its assets faster than the opponent (also known as "tempo") and trying to kill him before he can stabilize his/her position and execute his/her game plan

(By the way: yes, Team America is essentially a Tempo Thresh list with a somewhat larger black splash.)


This is a temporary opening post; I am currently accepting submissions via PM for a primer on the archetype (I might write something myself, but it's unlikely).



I suggest that TA continue to have its own thread since it is significantly different from the "Thresh" lists. I already posted a response in the Counterbalance thread suggesting that threads discussing multiple lists is a bad idea, and condensing is not the right answer for the DTB forum.

These condensed threads that contain multiple lists in an archetype will pose a serious problem for anyone trying to find the current form of any one deck. I highly suggest creating multiple threads, even though it might require a little more work.

4eak
05-18-2009, 12:57 AM
@ Nihil Credo


(By the way: yes, Team America is essentially a Tempo Thresh list with a somewhat larger black splash.)

Absolutely. Are you going to treat it as such?

If so, why isn't Team America included as being a part of the Tempo Thresh category in the May update of the DTBF Philosophy & Deck Selection?


What you're missing is that ALL "Threshold" threads (and the NLU threads in Established) have been closed. ~NC

Will the TA thread be closed?

Will the opening post of these new archetype threads be linking back to the threads which have been closed?

Lastly, for clarification, how should we categorize a deck that plays the full set of CounterTop and staples of Tempo Thresh?

4 Counterbalance
4 Top
4 Storm
2-4 Ponder

4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 FoW
4 Wasteland

4 Goyf
4 Creature

Heck, a lot of Dreadstill lists start looking like this as well. In some cases, I can't tell which is the primary goal. These decks might just play the role that was dealt to them in their opening hands and topdecks.

While you've said decks in this thread should not be running maindeck CBTop, I would hate to overlook decks that are honestly a hybrid of both archetypes.



peace,
4eak

Muradin
05-18-2009, 06:00 AM
I am convinced that having seperate threads for the tempo versions and the Counterbalance versions is the way to go instead of having a thread for each color combination. These decks are much more similar than the decks running the same color combination while having a different gameplan.

Korsakow
05-18-2009, 07:47 AM
Oki, I am a bit confused. This thread is for Canadian Thresh, right?

Skeggi
05-18-2009, 07:57 AM
Oki, I am a bit confused. This thread is for Canadian Thresh, right?
Among others, yes.

Charlatan
05-18-2009, 08:17 AM
This is not gonna work...

Usualy we have a single talk, following a main line that guides argument through some pages...

We will have to hunt posts, and even bother someone else talk.

Imagine this situation;

Guy 1 posts:
# I believe that disrupt doesn't make the cut in Canadian's SB....


Guy 2 posts:
#I've added Nyxantid as the 9-10 beater of my TA... it's great.

Guy 3 posts:
# Anyone has tryed to run more removals in UGB?


I guess that this is not the better way to improove our forum...

I know that NC has the best intentions with it, i think that is great his initial post, but only with you define the color wich threah is....

ty

Mictlantecuhtli
05-18-2009, 09:36 AM
@ Charlatan: Although situations like the one you described will eventually occur, i think people are intelligent enough to distinguish one conversation from the other. Mixed conversations do happen in several threads and confusions are easily cleared with a comment or two, usually accompained by a smiley.

I think the Tempo vs CounterTop division is a step on the right direction. It will probably need additional restructuring at some point but now it is too soon to pin point any catastrophic flaws.

Xero_2285
05-18-2009, 01:46 PM
Just so I have this straight... UGR, UGB, and UGW Threshold will all be in one Thread now? Also, will the UBGW/UBG and UW(x) Landstill threads be merged?

Waikiki
05-18-2009, 01:49 PM
Damn how hard is it to read?

There are decks which are based on CB top(NLU and UGW thresh) and decks based on tempo (canadian thresh/ugb)

Waya
05-18-2009, 01:51 PM
Just so I have this straight... UGR, UGB, and UGW Threshold will all be in one Thread now? Yes and No. The determining factor in which threshold deck goes where is not color, but play type. Tempo Thresh can be any set of colors and countertop thresh can be any set of colors. So the colors were merged, then split into separate deck ideas. The problem most people are having is that even within the two different deck archetypes, there is too much variation to have a single thread for the whole archetype.

The way they stand now they are more of an [ATB] (Archetype to Beat), rather than a single deck.

Xero_2285
05-18-2009, 02:03 PM
Damn how hard is it to read?

There are decks which are based on CB top(NLU and UGW thresh) and decks based on tempo (canadian thresh/ugb)

That's one sure fire way to get people to stay coming to this site... being an ass. I did read, that's why I asked. And you didn't help, you just stated the obvious.

Waikiki
05-18-2009, 03:52 PM
I'm not supposed to sound like an asshole but you ask something that's been explained allready.

Xero_2285
05-18-2009, 04:39 PM
I'm not supposed to sound like an asshole but you ask something that's been explained allready.

Well you did and again, obvious. I was just trying to clarify things for myself, there was no need for your comments at all in the first place. Waya did an excellent explanation.

Charlatan
05-18-2009, 06:19 PM
hey boys, take it easy...

We're all friends that like magic and wanna improove our decks by sharing good and bad experience.

My entire point is about merging color, for example, i have finished my UGR thresh, and i just want to read about it.
YOu know, just for tweak some things.
I would hate look for stuff about canadian and just find lines about UGB oy anything else...

And I just wanna know that if this thread is about the find the best tempo deck splashing or not any amount of colors?

ty all

Fossil4182
05-20-2009, 12:39 PM
I know its somewhat early, but my play group is starting to prep for GenCon. Since I'm the only one that really posts on The Source, I'm going to post/share our testing to see if we can get any feedback. This run on testing was done over ten games vs each of the following decks without sideboarding allowing for some G1 conclusions. This was the list used:

Creature [8]
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

Instant [28]
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Fire / Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
1 Rushing River

Sorcery [4]
4 Ponder

Land [20]
4 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland

Geddon Stax (20 - 80)
This match is very difficult. Stax can have such an explosive start that Tempo Thresh hold has a difficult time keeping up. Killing angel when its morphed is critical because the removal in the deck is always going to a 2 for 1 in their favor if the angel's un-morphed or if Magus is out on the board. Also their creatures are just bigger and they can win with the slow roll. The problem can be summarized as Stax just has too many must answer cards for a deck that doesn't have enough answers.
The things to watch out for in order of importance are:

Chalice for 1 (This cannot resolve if you want to win)
3Sphere
Smokestack
Crucible (If they have wasteland out)
Geddon
Ghostly Prison

This matchup is not beyond winning. If Stax stumbles, the deck can capitalize faster than most other decks Threshold decks. Additionally, a quick Goyf backed with burn can really push the deck hard assuming they don't have a prison out. Stifle can also do stupid things like protecting from Wasteland and stopping Flagstone gains. One cool trick is that if you have at least 3 mean and there's a 3sphere out, at the end of their turn use Ice to tap it down so you can go nuts on your turn.

Dragon Stompy (25-75)

DS is going to give this deck a lot of the same problems that Stax does. Chalice @1 is just as bad as well as 3sphere (This version was running it main). Also, Taurean Mauler gets really big quickly and only bolt kills it, assuming its the first spell you play against it. Arc Slogger is a must counter with FoW as it can end the game far more quickly than Tempo Threshold can. Blood Moon is much worse than Magus as the enchantment can't be removed besides Rushing River were as all of the removal is able to deal with the Magus. Both are problematic through and need to be dealt with. The Dragon isn't that scary as it can be killed by Bolt which is nice. Again, its just a issue of their deck being faster and their creatures larger. Sword of Fire and Ice is bad to see as all of your removal is gone making it just as high, if not higher on the list of must stops than Jitte. Wasteland on their City and Tombs is really helpful as they don't have Crucible. Furthermore, they can't recover as quickly as Stax can and their mana is a little more shaky because they have to rely on Guide sometimes to cast their spells early. Also, their top decks aren't necessarily as devastating as Stax and they tend to flop more often than you beat them to just make sure to capitalize on their misfortunes.

Waikiki
05-20-2009, 04:30 PM
I find your DS matchup percentages really off. I've played tempo ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh for a long time now and I have never lost a match to DS sure I've lost games but I always won my matches vs DS at the end.

rsaunder
05-20-2009, 06:48 PM
I find your DS matchup percentages really off. I've played tempo ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh for a long time now and I have never lost a match to DS sure I've lost games but I always won my matches vs DS at the end.

Same. Burn is ket here, and daze is just the bee's knees. Making them take lightning bolts from paying off a daze with tomb is pretty aweseome. Resolve a fatty, deal damage, and you'll be able to force few the last few.

@The List: Why so much land? 18 with 4 wasteland is very effective.

Fossil4182
05-20-2009, 11:20 PM
@rsaunder & Waikiki:

A couple of things to keep in mind. We did only play 10 games which could figure into the results. Additionally, the list we used was running 3sphere main which most Dragon Stompy decks do not. A resolved 3sphere is very problematic for the deck. Additionally, these percentages are only for game one. I would imagine that post board the match up does get much better post board.

Charlatan
05-21-2009, 01:39 AM
Fossil4182:
I can run only 18 lands, that's enough for a deck with 8 cantrips and with a low mana curve...

Run one more bounce, just like wipe away...

and 4 spell snare, this cards is really good against chalice@1.

And about your SB?

rancOr_
05-21-2009, 07:34 AM
I've been running 2x Vendilion Clique over the 2 bounce spells lately.
Although they were very effective, I'm still doubting whether or not the bounce spells are better.
What are the general thoughts about the necessity of Wipe Away and Rushing River?

Waikiki
05-21-2009, 10:05 AM
Yeah I've been thinking about that change aswell or maybe 1 clique 1 bounce spell. The bounce spells really rock vs random enchantments/planeswalkers etc. or even removing blockers. But clique also does very nice things. I should test more with it.

Fossil4182
05-21-2009, 05:54 PM
I think Clique is better against certain decks like combo. Outside of combo bounce is almost if not more relevant as a Clique would be. I think Clique is in the board and bounce stays main. Bounce also deals with Counterbalance which Clique doesn't (assuming its not in their hand).

Charlatan
05-22-2009, 02:58 AM
Clique doesn't generate tempo...

you don't boost your match by putting one card in the opponent's bottom and leting him to draw another card...

Sower is much morte TEMPO then that, and control at the same time...

or you can eve run venser...

and I know that 4 mana is an big issue for a tempo deck, but IMO it still much better...

i just think that caplan's list is our best choce atm....
you can only change his sb by the meta....
ty

Wargoos
05-22-2009, 04:43 PM
It's not generating tempo if you cast it in your own round but having evasion and having the ability of being played in the drawphase or eot of the opponents turn is just awesowe.
It's a good additional beater and i play one md in a fire/ice slot.

Charlatan
05-22-2009, 05:47 PM
It's not generating tempo if you cast it in your own round but having evasion and having the ability of being played in the drawphase or eot of the opponents turn is just awesowe.
It's a good additional beater and i play one md in a fire/ice slot.

a single clique won't bring you tempo. I can't see any purpose by having 1 to 4.

It doesn't generate tempo...

I repeat, even sower a 4cccreature will generaet more tempo than clique.

But that is all about opinions...

I woul rather run a single chain of lighting then 1 clique...

coraz86
05-22-2009, 05:58 PM
I really think Vedalken Shackles would be better than Sower for what either would achieve, simply because Thresh likes to have open mana with which to react when it isn't your turn. (Not to mention that Shackles is both harder to kill and reusable.) That makes it feel more like It's the Fear or Landstill or what have you, though. I personally like Vendillion Clique in that slot, because it's three-power evasion with flash, and it can either remove a threat from your opponent's hand or flush chaff out of your own. I can sort of understand an argument for something like Shackles that removes creatures, but I don't think the Thresh shell is the optimal place for Sower.
Not that I'm married to Shackles (I think a creature would be great there, something like Shriekmaw or a better variant of Man 'o War depending on your color split), but I really think Sower is better left to a more power-oriented deck than a tempo deck.

Berzerked
05-22-2009, 10:45 PM
I've also been enjoying a single Clique in a Fire/Ice slot. So much so, in fact, that I'd like to add another one, most likely in place of one of the bounce spells (I can't see wanting to drop anything else). Only problem is I can't figure out which. Split second is great with all the U around, but the tempo gained by kicker-ing River just wins games.

Any suggestions?

Cenarius
05-24-2009, 06:39 AM
Oke some strange things are said here. Sower of Temptation better than Vendellion Clique in Tempo Threshold? Oke you're seriously mistaken.
Vendellion Clique lets you play more tempo, because you can choose to play him as an instant. The thoughtseize effect is awesome for it lets you remove a removal spell (for example). Vendellion clique has flying which is pretty decent when there is a goyf-standstill. Don't forget that the power/toughness (3/1) is really great for a clock. It has CC 3 which means that it can resolve when an active counterbalance is on the table. There are so many things to be said that Vendellion Clique is so much better than sower of temptation (SORCERY SPEED).

I'm playing this list recently:

Mainboard

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
1 Vendellion Clique

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
1 Rushing River

4 Ponder

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (probably something like this:)

4 Pyroblast
4 Disrupt
3 Submerge
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroclasm

After playing dozen's of games with the deck for testing, 1 Vendellion Clique was awesome. I even wanted to play two, but it's just not right to play more of them since removing another card for it is not the way to go.
I think that 9 creatures is the way to go with TT.

Bahamuth
05-24-2009, 06:41 AM
Clique doesn't generate tempo...

you don't boost your match by putting one card in the opponent's bottom and leting him to draw another card...

Sower is much morte TEMPO then that, and control at the same time...

or you can eve run venser...

and I know that 4 mana is an big issue for a tempo deck, but IMO it still much better...

i just think that caplan's list is our best choce atm....
you can only change his sb by the meta....
ty

You cannot base all your card decisions on which cards are better at creating tempo.
First of all Sower deifnnitely doesn't create alot of tempo. Tempo is being able to effectively (1-1) use your spells before your opponent can. Sower cannot do this, especially in a deck with 18 land, of which 4 are there to be sacced.
Second of all, if you want to play tempo so badly, you'd probably be better off playing Shock instead of Fire//Ice, since it's cheaper and deals the same amout of damage. You don't, however, since there are other factors you need to consider. I run one Clique instead of bounce because I want an additional creature. I don't want to lose games due to playing loads of Stifles and Spell Snares, and then proceeding not to be able to win because I don't have a creature. Clique is best suited as far as I know, since it let's you keep mana open for Spell Snare, Bolt and occasionally Stifle. One of the very hardest decisions you will have to make playing this deck, is when to drop your Goyf. There will be times where you need to keep mana open, but you also need to have a clock to utilize tempo advantage you got. Clique allows you to play around this quite effectively, although at a pretty high cost.

Waikiki
05-24-2009, 06:54 AM
If im able to get 4 lands in to play and am not allready be winning then im dead. Clique is way better then sower.

If clique is better then the bounce spells/ fire ice . that is the question we should be asking.

DragoFireheart
05-24-2009, 10:20 PM
I was thinking about building a temp thresh deck.

What does the black variant look like?

kabal
05-24-2009, 10:39 PM
I was thinking about building a temp thresh deck.

What does the black variant look like?

This (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20934)

DragoFireheart
05-25-2009, 12:28 AM
What are the strengths and weaknesses of UGb compared to UGr? Does the extra draw and discard outweigh the reach of burn?

Cenarius
05-25-2009, 11:40 AM
It's nice to see someone willing to play a Tempo Threshold (T T) list. Although I haven't played with an UGB list, I do know what is good in T T list after testing.

First:

12 creatures is way to much I think. You'll get too much creatures in your opening hands. This means that the strategy of a T T deck (disrupting your opponents manabase/attacking their cantrip's/daze-ing) becomes weak when playing an 9-creature base. In short: when you're cutting cards that disrupts your opponent, you'll get them less frequent in your opening hand. When you'll play more creatures (so for instance 12), you'll get more creatures in your opening hand. With a deck as T T you want to disrupt your opponent first with everything u got, before topdecking a creature.
If you want to play a UG Black disrupting deck that plays goyf, I think u can better play Team America, since it does exactly the same but then better than UGB threshold. It's ofcourse easy to say stuff like this, however it's what I believe is the truth.
Probably i'll get some hate mails after this, but playing a black T T list that only plays: 3 daze, 3 spell snare, 3 stifle is just asking for troubles. Another thing is that the removal is pretty weak. You'll have to spend 3 mana for a removal card that cannot get rid of Counterbalance (3 mana is pretty high for a deck like this) and Ghastly Demise that cannot target Tombstalker and Confidant is pretty bad.
Thoughtseize is pretty bad in a T T list since you want to keep mana open all the time to cast Stifles, Spell Snares (and Brainstorms). Tempo Threshold for me means playing everything on instant speed, it's the strenght of the deck. Playing turn 1 ponder's or thoughtseize's is not the way to play these kind of decks and playing a lot of these cards would be bad, because you'll play them in turn 2/3.

So you'll should play the Red Tempo Threshold list. The burn is pretty awesome, althought they may look pretty weak. Killing your opponents goyf (Fire/Bolt), tapping them to do lethal damage (Ice) or just simply bouncing them (RR) (and do lethal damage/and then spell snare-ing them) is awesome. If they are bad in a particular matchup, it's easy to board them out. This is because of the fact that your sideboard is pretty straightforward.

If you're still in doubt just ask more questions.

Happy Gilmore
05-25-2009, 03:16 PM
This (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20934)


If you play that list, do not play his manabase. Basic lands will lose you the game in this deck. That is also why he has only 3 wastelands, to keep 14 blue sources. And don't play Breeding pool, my god, anyone who boards in extirpate against you is going to lose no matter what.

kabal
05-25-2009, 03:28 PM
If you play that list, do not play his manabase. Basic lands will lose you the game in this deck. That is also why he has only 3 wastelands, to keep 14 blue sources. And don't play Breeding pool, my god, anyone who boards in extirpate against you is going to lose no matter what.

Not my deck, just one of the first Black Tempo list I occurred on DeckCheck looking for a 1st place in decent size tournament.

Berzerked
05-25-2009, 03:38 PM
According to deckcheck, 37.5% of UGB Thrash (Bob, Goyf, Goose, Stifle, Snare, Seize, Waste) plays a single MD Breeding Pool, whereas 3% of UGR Thrash does the same.
Obviously UGR is much more represented, but what do you think is the reasoning behind all these UGB players' decision to run the Breeding Pool? Do you think they just straight up copied the creator's list, or is there an actual reason (beyond the Extirpate problem, which, you're right, isn't much of a problem, because if it was, you'd assume it would be a problem for UGR as well)?

coraz86
05-25-2009, 04:14 PM
You'll have to spend 3 mana for a removal card that cannot get rid of Counterbalance (3 mana is pretty high for a deck like this) and Ghastly Demise that cannot target Tombstalker and Confidant is pretty bad.

--What about Snuff Out? It doesn't necessarily cost mana, and it gets around Counterbalance and Spell Snare (and really Daze, since you typically will play it without spending mana on it). Spell Snare and Daze should help take care of Bob in those matchups where you see him, and you can take care of Tombstalker in whatever way seems reasonable.
For the record, I really like Team America; I like to be actively peeing in my opponent's cornflakes rather than passively denying everything they do. Just felt like tossing my two cents in here.


The burn is pretty awesome, althought they may look pretty weak. Killing your opponents goyf (Fire/Bolt), tapping them to do lethal damage (Ice) or just simply bouncing them (RR) (and do lethal damage/and then spell snare-ing them) is awesome. If they are bad in a particular matchup, it's easy to board them out.

I have never seen anybody kill Goyf with a Bolt. I agree that burn is nice because of the flexibility (it can kill all kinds of little dudes or be pointed at your opponent's face), but Goyf isn't the only problem.
How, for that matter, does UGr deal with ANT? Daze and Spell Snare help, I'm sure, but were I playing Thresh I'd want maindeck Thoughtseize and sideboard Duress or Therapy for that.

@Berzerked; I'm guessing the presence of Breeding Pools is either a dearth of originality or of money. I've been known to use shocklands in Legacy tournaments simply because I couldn't scrape up the duals. Of course, I also know an irritating number of people who will copy a deck card for card and go robot with it at a tournament. (It's only tolerable because I've been known to think while I play Magic, which is an important advantage when your opponent isn't capable of it.) :rolleyes:

J.V.
05-25-2009, 04:25 PM
I've been finding Mongoose to be very lackluster as of late, to combat this I've been test UGW Tempo Thresh.
Here's the list I've been working on:
// Lands
4 [B] Tundra
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
4 [AR] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
1 [PS] Rushing River
4 [B] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [NE] Daze
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NE] Submerge
SB: 4 [IN] Disrupt
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg

The only slot I'm not entirely sure about is Counterspell, it has been for the most part solid, but occasionally the UU is difficult.

Waikiki
05-25-2009, 05:54 PM
I find the thing that makes TT so powerfull is the reach the burn gives you. F/I is really amazing aswell. STP counteracts this. There for I think the ugw shell is simply stronger in the more controlling role.

beastman
05-25-2009, 07:34 PM
I've been finding Mongoose to be very lackluster as of late, to combat this I've been test UGW Tempo Thresh.
Here's the list I've been working on:
// Lands
4 [B] Tundra
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
4 [AR] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
1 [PS] Rushing River
4 [B] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [NE] Daze
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NE] Submerge
SB: 4 [IN] Disrupt
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg

The only slot I'm not entirely sure about is Counterspell, it has been for the most part solid, but occasionally the UU is difficult.


The first thing is, you basically have 4 win conditions in the deck, and they are going to get hit immediately with spot removal. You have no untargetable guys, or counter top to protect your guys. This will make matches such as landstill, ITF, and survival almost auto losses game 1 because of all the recursion and spot removal flying around.

kabal
05-25-2009, 07:48 PM
I've been finding Mongoose to be very lackluster as of late, to combat this I've been test UGW Tempo Thresh.
Here's the list I've been working on: ...

If you were to try White, go with something similar to this list which recently top 4 at Magic-League. It runs Misdirection MB to alleviate running no shroud creatures. Quirion Dryad in a tempo build like below will grow much bigger than Pridemage. At the end of the day, I think testing with show that Red is the splash to go with, since its main/side board cards really support its strategy.

4 Quirion Dryad
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Stifle
2 Counterspell
2 Misdirection
2 Predict

4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

Irenicus
05-26-2009, 08:00 AM
@ Canadian Threshold

I have played Canadian Threshold last Saturday the second time and was quite satisfied with it. My no.1 issue is the sideboard(-plan). I played the following SB:

3 Pithing Needle
2 Submerge
2 Mind Harness
2 Pyroblast
3 Pyroclasm
3 Disrupt

I was really impressed by the power that comes from playing Needle vs. decks which are playing Top. The split of Submerge/Mind Harness was due not having four Submerge and actually not knowing which card is stronger. As far as Disrupt goes, I really love it, but not in this deck. I used to play it MD in GAT in T1, but when you opponent plays around Daze it’s a lot worse.
Therefore I am testing this SB at the moment:

3 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroclasm
3 Mind Harness
4 Pyroblast/REB
2 Ancient Grudge

But there is a lot of competion for the 15 slots. Or meta is quite mixed, therefore I don’t want to cut the Pyroclasm because they make the Goblin and Merfolk matchup a lot easier. The two Ancient Grudge were added because I lost the final two games of the tournament vs. CotV set at one. You might want to change these to Krosan Grips, but I don’t like playing too many cards with CC=3 (I play two Rushing River main). Other cards which I would like to play in the SB are Price of Progress (the better players in my local shop play 3-4 colour LS or ITF) and maybe some graveyard-hate (but there are only 1-2 Ichorid-players here and vs. recurring-engines (LftL, A. Ruins, Stronghold) Needle is, in my opinion, a better option.

All in all I think that because the maindeck is set in stones we should focus on the SB and its use/plan vs. the different decks.

Happy Gilmore
05-26-2009, 12:28 PM
If you were to try White, go with something similar to this list which recently top 4 at Magic-League. It runs Misdirection MB to alleviate running no shroud creatures. Quirion Dryad in a tempo build like below will grow much bigger than Pridemage. At the end of the day, I think testing with show that Red is the splash to go with, since its main/side board cards really support its strategy.

4 Quirion Dryad
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Stifle
2 Counterspell
2 Misdirection
2 Predict

4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

Dryad is bad, it was bad before goyf, its even worse now. Play Goose, or play TA and smash with stalker. Do not play the white splash, sure, it can win games just like any agro control deck that contains the base spells, but its just worse than UGR or UGB.

kabal
05-26-2009, 12:31 PM
Dryad is bad, it was bad before goyf, its even worse now. Play Goose, or play TA and smash with stalker. Do not play the white splash, sure, it can win games just like any agro control deck that contains the base spells, but its just worse than UGR or UGB.

And again, that was the point I made.


At the end of the day, I think testing with show that Red is the splash to go with, since its main/side board cards really support its strategy.

matelml
05-26-2009, 03:21 PM
I have never seen anybody kill Goyf with a Bolt. I agree that burn is nice because of the flexibility (it can kill all kinds of little dudes or be pointed at your opponent's face), but Goyf isn't the only problem.
How, for that matter, does UGr deal with ANT? Daze and Spell Snare help, I'm sure, but were I playing Thresh I'd want maindeck Thoughtseize and sideboard Duress or Therapy for that.


What he meant was in Goyf-Goyf wars. Obviously burn isn't a great answer to Goyf by itsself.

Against ANT you really don't need MD Thoughtseize+Sb Therapy/Duress. A UGR maindeck is fine against it. Just Stifle fetchlands whenever you can and Daze Ponders/Brainstorms/Mystical Tutors. Waste/Stifle is very strong against ANT. In the SB you can play Pyroblast which is also pretty goosd aginst ANT. The MU for UGR should be positive if you play correct and your opponent doesn't play perfectly.

Atog
05-26-2009, 03:58 PM
Have you guys been trouble with Tombstalker with UGR-thresh? Before somebody say "just counter it" there is deck what plays counter too (dreadstalker). Today tested with UGR-thresh against dreadstalker.deck and went many times on situation where i bounce that and he could hardcast it straight or remove couple cards and then play it around daze/with counter backup. Those burns kill it yes, and Ice tap it, but still its just temporary solution if other burn gets countered. Have you dedicated any sidecard slots for those big beefs = stalker and nought? Somebody said before about that Sower, and that could be good card if we play more lands.. Thinking that tormod's crypt could be a good answer for that without dedicating cards just for that.

Berzerked
05-26-2009, 04:14 PM
Answers for Stalker:

Wasteland/Stifle to keep them off BB

Preemptive Clique

Rushing River/Wipe Away

Ice

Fire+Bolt/Bolt+Bolt

SB preemptive Crypt

SB Submerge

SB Firespout+Bolt/Firespout+Fire/Pyroclasm+Bolt


Obviously some of these are worse than others. I have seen Sower/Control Magic in SB before, though. Try the Clique.

shagman619
05-26-2009, 07:16 PM
how do we side against red aggro decks (goyf sligh naya zoo loam), merfolk ant, landstill baseruption, mirror, evagreen and goblins. with a standard sideboard consiting of submerge, ancient grudge, pyroclasm, rebs krosan grip

Roman Candle
05-26-2009, 11:22 PM
I guess I'll post the list I've been working on for a while, but its not completely tuned.

Critters:
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Trygon Predator

Spells:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Krosan Grip

Lands:
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

Grim Lavamancer is probably the thing that sticks out most in this list, but I'm not exaggerating when I say that it's been incredible. It wins Goyf wars and wrecks the tribal decks and little Exalted fellows that are becoming more and more popular as of late. I'm much happier with it than I am with Mongoose.

I don't love Trygon, but I'm not sure that there's a better option. Burning Tree Shaman seems like the most likely candidate.

Waikiki
05-27-2009, 04:36 AM
I really like the list and I think it would be nice to test out. I'd test out clique in the predator slot.

Sage
05-28-2009, 11:51 AM
For those that have tried it, how has Null Rod tested out main deck/sb?

Citrus-God
05-28-2009, 02:43 PM
For those that have tried it, how has Null Rod tested out main deck/sb?

When Affinity becomes an actual competitive deck.

MULocke
05-28-2009, 05:13 PM
I guess I'll post the list I've been working on for a while, but its not completely tuned.

Critters:
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Trygon Predator

Spells:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Krosan Grip

Lands:
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

Grim Lavamancer is probably the thing that sticks out most in this list, but I'm not exaggerating when I say that it's been incredible. It wins Goyf wars and wrecks the tribal decks and little Exalted fellows that are becoming more and more popular as of late. I'm much happier with it than I am with Mongoose.

I don't love Trygon, but I'm not sure that there's a better option. Burning Tree Shaman seems like the most likely candidate.

Have you tested vs control at all? Mongoose isn't necessarily that good against random tribal aggro (except goblins, for never dying), but he really shines against control.

This isn't meant as an attack against you (or even a response to your post directly), but it's something that keeps popping up. Nimble Mongoose is nuts in non-cb threshold. Without him, you have a really hard time beating control, yet the first thing I see many people change about the list is removing the goose. I personally feel that I have zero ways to beat landstill without a mongoose, and many other control decks just have so many problems dealing with him. Spot removal is so prevalent in this format, and many decks use it as a crutch because it removes goyf. Yes, removal for him exists. That brings us back to the theory of threats vs answers. Many of the answers cost 3 or more mana, just to kill a 1-drop. Did you just manage to stifle the deed? They may never find another answer.

Conclusion: test mongoose, and test against control, too. We already have the tools to beat tribal aggro; goyf and bolts are really good here. Mongoose gives us the ability to beat control while being ridiculously undercosted. Lavamancer actually does seem good, and I actually want to test him now, but don't give up on goose so quickly.

Edit: @tombstalker: Often game 1, he is a 2 for 1 against us. That sucks, but decks that run him tend to be threat-light. Save your forces for him whenever possible. Game 2, you get submerge. Submerge is unfair against tombstalker.

Atog
05-28-2009, 05:48 PM
Edit: @tombstalker: Often game 1, he is a 2 for 1 against us. That sucks, but decks that run him tend to be threat-light. Save your forces for him whenever possible. Game 2, you get submerge. Submerge is unfair against tombstalker.

That deck what against i tested was Dreadstalker(UB) so there wasn't any use for Submerges :/. Of cource against EvaGreen or similar that should do the trick but not against that Dreadstalker.. Guess i just have to try save counter or try to bait to the burn range when racing..

Roman Candle
05-28-2009, 06:43 PM
Conclusion: test mongoose, and test against control, too. We already have the tools to beat tribal aggro; goyf and bolts are really good here. Mongoose gives us the ability to beat control while being ridiculously undercosted. Lavamancer actually does seem good, and I actually want to test him now, but don't give up on goose so quickly.

Mongoose hardly seems like its gamebreaking in the control matchup as opposed to Stifle/Wastes. You play 4 Stifle/4 Wasteland plus counters for the early game, so try to catch control off-balance. And postboard, you have Red Blasts and Disrupts to steal tempo even further.

And plus, Lavamancer is the tits against Mishra's Factory and Sower of Temptation.

BKclassic
05-28-2009, 11:16 PM
When Affinity becomes an actual competitive deck.

I would encourage everyone to reevaluate Null Rod. The thing about Null Rod is that it shuts down CB/Top, but it also shuts down EE, your opponent's only would-be to a resolved Null Rod. This card ranges from balling against Dreadstill to hyper-balling against Probasco-Countertop where you shut down Vedalken Shackles and Academy Ruins useless, and these are match-ups thar could stand some improvement. Also, having a legitimate way to shut down combo is cool, too.

I'm testing something like this:

4 REB
4 Submerge
3 Null Rod
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pyroclam
2 EE

MULocke
05-29-2009, 12:58 AM
Mongoose hardly seems like its gamebreaking in the control matchup as opposed to Stifle/Wastes. You play 4 Stifle/4 Wasteland plus counters for the early game, so try to catch control off-balance. And postboard, you have Red Blasts and Disrupts to steal tempo even further.

What if they're on the play? You play those cards as well, but you can't just rely on them to get you all the way there. Swords costs a single white mana.

DragoFireheart
05-31-2009, 01:29 PM
What does this deck do against decks that don't care about wasteland?

Would Wasteland be a dead drop in those cases?

Adan
05-31-2009, 01:43 PM
What does this deck do against decks that don't care about wasteland?

Would Wasteland be a dead drop in those cases?

Yes...? O.o

If the opponent doesn't care about Wasteland, it's dead. It's as easy as that.
But since there are only a few monocolored decks that are competitive, it's not really a issue to worry about. And of all the monocolored decks, Imperial Painter and Dragonstompy are the most annoying ones due to Blood Moon.

MULocke
05-31-2009, 02:50 PM
Wasteland also taps for 1.

Even against decks like dragon stompy, you can slow them down or even lock then out if they play a 2-land into trinisphere.

Taurelin
05-31-2009, 03:00 PM
Would Wasteland be a dead drop in those cases?

You can still waste one of your own duals, another dead Wasteland or even itself to achieve Threshold faster and kill them earlier.

Or produce :1: , of course, which is never useless.

Adan
05-31-2009, 04:52 PM
Yeah people, that was quite trivial. -.-

But he was talking about the usefulness of Wasteland. Against decks liek Burn they will be dead most likely.

But my point simply was that monocolored decks are not really competitive in the current metagame, in consequence Wasteland is quite efficient and seldom dead in the most cases.

But when they are, you have to use them as manasources or like Taurelin mentioned, Threshold-accelerators. On a sidenote, you can sacrifice a Wasteland to itself afaik since you are announcing targets first, then pay the activation cost.

BKclassic
05-31-2009, 05:12 PM
Wasting your own lands has come in useful for me against burn against Price of Progress.

Cenarius
06-01-2009, 07:38 AM
"monocolored decks are not really competitive in the current metagame"

What about Merfolk? There you have pretty good targets.

Waikiki
06-01-2009, 08:49 AM
that's a deck with plenty of wasteland targets.

Cenarius
06-01-2009, 10:29 AM
Thanks for repeating my last sentence.

I was just wondering why he thought that Merfolk, being a monocoloured deck, was not "popular".

3duece
06-01-2009, 11:17 AM
I think he means mono-colored decks with no good wasteland targets. So basically burn and mono-black aggro. Which both suck. Keep the conversation going by not being nit-picky and using common sense.

Atog
06-01-2009, 12:00 PM
What is sideplan against other thresh and mirror? I have side like this and im playing "basic build" = Chigaco top8:

2x Krosan grip
2x Tormod's crypt
2x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroblast
3x Submerge
2x Pyroclasm
3x Disrupt

Usually i go like this in mirror:

-4x Daze
-4x Spell snare
-x random (bolt, fire/ice, stifle or bounce?)

+ 3x Submerge
+ 3x Disrupt
+ 2x REB
+ 1x Pyroblast

But against other thresh having some problem, against counter-top version i would bring Grips, Submerges, pyro/reb and disrupt. BUT, what to take out? Burn? There is coming 11 cards in but, if we take out bolts, dazes and then what? Stifles? Fire // ice win goyf wars, so they stay? Snares hit balances and goyf, depending build maybe even Confidant. But does Burn go over them? Thanks in advance :)

DragoFireheart
06-01-2009, 12:23 PM
Well, I have decided to start building a UGR Threshold deck to take to local tournaments.

I can't decide on the creature base atm. Should I have 4 Goyf / 4 Geese, maybe run a 9th creature as secret tech?

Atog
06-01-2009, 12:26 PM
Well, I have decided to start building a UGR Threshold deck to take to local tournaments.

I can't decide on the creature base atm. Should I have 4 Goyf / 4 Geese, maybe run a 9th creature as secret tech?

What your meta is looking like? If there is lots of EvaGreen etc. then i would go 4 Goyf / 4 Geese route. Just because that Geeses shroud ability.

DragoFireheart
06-01-2009, 12:33 PM
What your meta is looking like? If there is lots of EvaGreen etc. then i would go 4 Goyf / 4 Geese route. Just because that Geeses shroud ability.

I have no clue what my meta looks like atm.

I'm sorta looking for a deck that is good vs random.deck meta. Is this the correct deck?

3duece
06-01-2009, 12:58 PM
4 goyf/4 goose is very good against random metas. Goose's shroud ability is very strong, it's an answer to turn 1 lackey and red thresh is the best deck for it because it threshes so fast. Your other viable option is lorescale coatl, which will usually be bigger but isn't as versatile and is more easily removed. I say go for the classic canadian thresh list. The one on the first page of this thread is good if memory serves.

edit: top of second page

DragoFireheart
06-01-2009, 01:00 PM
4 goyf/4 goose is very good against random metas. Goose's shroud ability is very strong, it's an answer to turn 1 lackey and red thresh is the best deck for it because it threshes so fast. Your other viable option is lorescale coatl, which will usually be bigger but isn't as versatile and is more easily removed. I say go for the classic canadian thresh list. The one on the first page of this thread is good if memory serves.

edit: top of second page


This list?


Creature [8]
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

Instant [28]
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Fire / Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
1 Rushing River

Sorcery [4]
4 Ponder

Land [20]
4 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland

Atog
06-01-2009, 01:11 PM
This list?


Creature [8]
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

Instant [28]
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Fire / Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
1 Rushing River

Sorcery [4]
4 Ponder

Land [20]
4 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland

- 1x Forest
- 1x Island
- 1x Flooded Strand

+ 1x Wasteland
+ 1x Spell Snare
+ 1x Wipe Away

Blitzbold
06-01-2009, 01:14 PM
Well, I have decided to start building a UGR Threshold deck to take to local tournaments.

I can't decide on the creature base atm. Should I have 4 Goyf / 4 Geese, maybe run a 9th creature as secret tech?

I am running a singleton Vendilion Clique in the place of the 4th Fire / Ice at the moment and am quite happy with it.

DragoFireheart
06-01-2009, 01:23 PM
- 1x Forest
- 1x Island
- 1x Flooded Strand

+ 1x Wasteland
+ 1x Spell Snare
+ 1x Wipe Away


Why would you cut the basic forest?

DragoFireheart
06-01-2009, 01:24 PM
I am running a singleton Vendilion Clique in the place of the 4th Fire / Ice at the moment and am quite happy with it.

Do you think a single Lorescale Coatl would be worth trying?

Brad Herbig
06-01-2009, 01:37 PM
Why would you cut the basic forest?

Because it is not needed. Also, you expect to draw the singleton forest when you need it? You can't fetch it, I don't see why you would run it.

DragoFireheart
06-01-2009, 01:44 PM
Because it is not needed. Also, you expect to draw the singleton forest when you need it? You can't fetch it, I don't see why you would run it.

I'm guessing this deck is not bothered by Bloodmoon effects?

Blitzbold
06-01-2009, 01:45 PM
Do you think a single Lorescale Coatl would be worth trying?

Lorescale Coatl fits the same slot of *dump beater* as Tarmogoyf already does. Vendilion Clique on the other hand fulfills double duty as disruption as well as a flying beater. The only other creature I'd play in this slot would be Trygon Predator.



I'm guessing this deck is not bothered by Bloodmoon effects?

It is, and you know this yourself. However, Blood Moon (or Magus) are both 3cc so Tempo should be able to stop them - short of a busted start by a legitimately underplayed deck. In fact you only need to fear Blood Moon as you can simply broil a resolved Magus.

DragoFireheart
06-01-2009, 01:58 PM
Lorescale Coatl fits the same slot of *dump beater* as Tarmogoyf already does. Vendilion Clique on the other hand fulfills double duty as disruption as well as a flying beater. The only other creature I'd play in this slot would be Trygon Predator.

Are there no other creatures? Both seem very underwhelming in this deck.





It is, and you know this yourself. However, Blood Moon (or Magus) are both 3cc so Tempo should be able to stop them - short of a busted start by a legitimately underplayed deck. In fact you only need to fear Blood Moon as you can simply broil a resolved Magus.


I wasn't worried about Magus since I can just laugh and blow it up with a Bolt or a Fire. My concern was Bloodmoon on Turn 1 and me not have Counter Magic in hand, though I suppose for that MU I would mull into counter magic just for that reason.

MULocke
06-01-2009, 02:00 PM
The main problem with basics in this deck is that it plays so few manasources anyway. Most decks playing 20+ can fit in a few basics to fetch, but with wasteland you only get 14. You need to be able to function off 2-3 lands, and you need to have access to three colors of mana at all times (bolting lackey turn 1 is important, etc). Also, forest sucks with daze. You're just not going to see enought lands to be able to fetch basics and not get colorscrewed. Yes, basics would help a bit against moon effects, but the marginal cost of adding basics is greater than the marginal benefit they provide. If you try to cut spell slots to add basics (increasing the amount of lands to fight the above problem), you draw too many lands over the course of the game and can't close out an opponent.

@ Drago: Goose and goyf are the best creatures for the deck; you're not going to find anything else on par, or else we'd be playing it already. 8 creatures usually work fine, but if you see the need for more, your best choices are trygon predator, vendillion clique, and lorescale coatl. I've heard a lot of good things about clique and predator (more about the clique), and coatl just seems good (needs more testing).

DragoFireheart
06-01-2009, 02:12 PM
@ Drago: Goose and goyf are the best creatures for the deck; you're not going to find anything else on par, or else we'd be playing it already. 8 creatures usually work fine, but if you see the need for more, your best choices are trygon predator, vendillion clique, and lorescale coatl. I've heard a lot of good things about clique and predator (more about the clique), and coatl just seems good (needs more testing).

What should I take out to make room for a coatl/predator/clique?

If I use this list for example:

Creature [8]
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

Instant [29]
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Fire / Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
1 Rushing River
1 Wipe Away

Sorcery [4]
4 Ponder

Land [18]
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

NQN
06-01-2009, 02:19 PM
I´d suggest cutting 1 Fire/ice for 1 Clique since FI isnt that great anymore and Clique is the best out of the three cc3 beaters.

DragoFireheart
06-01-2009, 02:20 PM
Oh, and a somewhat dumb question, but is there a difference between Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast?

They seem like the same exact card minus their names, but I noticed slightly different wording for each one:


Pyroblast:

Oracle text: Choose one — Counter target spell if it's blue; or destroy target permanent if it's blue.


Red Elemental Blast:

Oracle text: Choose one — Counter target blue spell; or destroy target blue permanent.





Edit:

What should my sideboard look like for a random, unknown meta?

kabal
06-01-2009, 02:26 PM
Oh, and a somewhat dumb question, but is there a difference between Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast?


Functionally they do the same thing, but one (Pyroblast) can target any spell/permanent and the other can not. You could cast a pyroblast to just have it fizzle to add to your graveyard count. Why to run 2-2 split, to avoid Meddling Mage or Cabal Therapy

kabal
06-01-2009, 02:32 PM
I´d suggest cutting 1 Fire/ice for 1 Clique since FI isnt that great anymore...

That does not seem to be true. You still want a way (game 1) to remove blockers and help with the mana denial plan. Grim lavamancer and Dark Confidant are also seeing more play than they ever had in the past.

Blitzbold
06-01-2009, 02:38 PM
Functionally they do the same thing, but one (Pyroblast) can target any spell/permanent and the other can not.

-- Which also means that Pyroblast could be Misdirected / Diverted / what ever and REB not.

MULocke
06-01-2009, 02:39 PM
The bounce spells are the fourth fire/ice are basically your only choices to cut for more creatures. I can't say which one because I haven't tested it. As for REB / Pyroblast, Meddling Mage isn't really a problem as you have a ton of ways to remove him and there's no reason to name a blast over force or bolt. Thus, the split is justified by cabal therapy? What are you boarding blasts in against that runs therapy and blue? Duress is much more common because it's used in combo, so I'd say to run 3-4 pyroblast and 0-1 REB to help get threshold in matchups like combo when you don't have a spell to target but need to apply pressure.

Edit:@Blitzbold: The reasons for running the pslit all seem to be niche cases that would almost never happen (unfrequently played cards), while the benefit of getting threshold is always there. It just seems better to run more pyroblasts, unless your meta dictates otherwise.

kabal
06-01-2009, 02:47 PM
As for REB / Pyroblast, ...

Regarding the 2/2 split, I was just commenting on why most list maybe have that configuration. Granted, I'm sure most are just copy/paste of David Caplan's list so at the end of the day he is going to know the exact reason.

Roman Candle
06-01-2009, 03:48 PM
Mongoose isn't very good.

Now, I say this for a variety of reasons. For one, Goblins is on a decline, and has been for a long time. It also got its grubby green hands on a tutorable Edict, which shroud does little against.

You can deal with a turn 1 Lackey with a bolt effect, or if you're on the draw, with a Goyf, Fire/Ice, or a counter. I also play Lavamancer, which helps too.

Second, Shroud isn't as relevant as it once was. StP and to a limited degree PtE, Snuff Out and burn are the only things it stops anymore. But PtE is played in what, one deck? And Snuff Out and burn are rarely played as well.

Thirdly, Legacy is a format of big creatures. The most popular beaters are Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, and Phyrexian Dreadnought. Mongoose simply can't compete with these guys on offense or defense. Interestingly, the most popular deck that has creatures smaller than it (MAYBE other than Goblins) is Merfolk, who couldn't care less about it.

That's why I've switched to Grim Lavamancer. It helps handle the tribal decks that are becoming popular, as well as smaller Exalted guys. It makes Qasali Pridemage and Dark Confidant its bitch. It also puts Goyf wars in your favor. And, it helps Lightning Bolt take down bigger critters.

Likewise, Lorescale isn't very good here either. The only ways you can pump it are with Brainstorm, Ponder, and I suppose Ice. Otherwise, its only going to grow one point per turn. Other Thresh builds at least have Sensei's Divining Top. Honestly, Vendilion Clique, Trygon Predator or Burning Tree Shaman seem much stronger in that slot. Trygon is probably best of those options.

Also, don't play a basic Forest. You can't search for it, and you never want to draw it. You more often than not scoop to a resolved Blood Moon, but you have counters and mana denial to hopefully keep them off the Moon.

DragoFireheart
06-01-2009, 03:57 PM
Mongoose isn't very good.


Thirdly, Legacy is a format of big creatures. The most popular beaters are Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, and Phyrexian Dreadnought. Mongoose simply can't compete with these guys on offense or defense. Interestingly, the most popular deck that has creatures smaller than it (MAYBE other than Goblins) is Merfolk, who couldn't care less about it.

I don't agree with that point there. If a Phyrexian Dreadnought is dropped, NOTHING is going to stop it, be it a Tarmogoyf or a Geese. And by nothing, I mean commonly used creatures.

If a Tombstalker get's cast and you can't answer it, mongoose or what not isn't going to stop it anyways.

The thing is with those larger creatures is that they tend to be much slower than a mongoose and/or require other cards to bring them out. Mongoose can just be dropped and swing away.



That's why I've switched to Grim Lavamancer. It helps handle the tribal decks that are becoming popular, as well as smaller Exalted guys. It makes Qasali Pridemage and Dark Confidant its bitch. It also puts Goyf wars in your favor. And, it helps Lightning Bolt take down bigger critters.



Yes, but Lavamancer can die to spot removal, while Mongoose can't. Not every deck runs edicts or what not and spot removal is still relevant. I like the idea of Grim though and may try a 1 of.

Adan
06-01-2009, 04:27 PM
Mongoose isn't very good.

Now, I say this for a variety of reasons. For one, Goblins is on a decline, and has been for a long time. It also got its grubby green hands on a tutorable Edict, which shroud does little against.

You can deal with a turn 1 Lackey with a bolt effect, or if you're on the draw, with a Goyf, Fire/Ice, or a counter. I also play Lavamancer, which helps too.

You play Lavamancer? To give him more outs? I mean, Mogg Fanatic and Gempalm Incinerator? Good idea! Not!


Second, Shroud isn't as relevant as it once was. StP and to a limited degree PtE, Snuff Out and burn are the only things it stops anymore. But PtE is played in what, one deck? And Snuff Out and burn are rarely played as well.

You are not going to say that removal is rarely played in Legacy...?
From my experience in Annecy, Mongoose is still the killer that is going to win you every controlmatchup. Seriously. I bashed so many heads in with him. Like that Faeries guy from Round 1. When he lost he dropped his hand on the table and revealed Shackles, Bolt and Threads of Disloyalty and was like mimimi. There was absolutely no chance to win that game with Tarmogoyf.


Thirdly, Legacy is a format of big creatures. The most popular beaters are Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, and Phyrexian Dreadnought. Mongoose simply can't compete with these guys on offense or defense. Interestingly, the most popular deck that has creatures smaller than it (MAYBE other than Goblins) is Merfolk, who couldn't care less about it.

Well, as a 3/3 he still is bigger than most non-Goyf creatures of the format. Tombstalker and Dreadnought are not played frequently. I only worry about Aggroloam since their creatures are also bigger than Goyf. Lavamancer isn't going to help here either. But the Submerges are the nuts against Aggroloam.


That's why I've switched to Grim Lavamancer. It helps handle the tribal decks that are becoming popular, as well as smaller Exalted guys. It makes Qasali Pridemage and Dark Confidant its bitch. It also puts Goyf wars in your favor. And, it helps Lightning Bolt take down bigger critters.

Why don't you simply play Nimble Mongoose? It's bigger than the creatures you mentioned and fatties are simply Ice'd and then you swing ftw.
And seriously, with 8 Burn and 4 Spell Snare, these creatures shouldn't be an issue.


Likewise, Lorescale isn't very good here either. The only ways you can pump it are with Brainstorm, Ponder, and I suppose Ice. Otherwise, its only going to grow one point per turn. Other Thresh builds at least have Sensei's Divining Top. Honestly, Vendilion Clique, Trygon Predator or Burning Tree Shaman seem much stronger in that slot. Trygon is probably best of those options.

...and they all suck even more than Lavamancer since TempoThresh is dependant on it's manasources and you actually NEVER want to tap out since you want to remain flexible. That's why Mongoose is the optimal creature. Additionally, it doesn't get eaten by removal which is crucial since you are only playing 8 creatures.


Also, don't play a basic Forest. You can't search for it, and you never want to draw it. You more often than not scoop to a resolved Blood Moon, but you have counters and mana denial to hopefully keep them off the Moon.

Wooded Foothills any1?

MULocke
06-01-2009, 04:45 PM
Mongoose isn't very good.

Now, I say this for a variety of reasons. For one, Goblins is on a decline, and has been for a long time. It also got its grubby green hands on a tutorable Edict, which shroud does little against.

You can deal with a turn 1 Lackey with a bolt effect, or if you're on the draw, with a Goyf, Fire/Ice, or a counter. I also play Lavamancer, which helps too.

Second, Shroud isn't as relevant as it once was. StP and to a limited degree PtE, Snuff Out and burn are the only things it stops anymore. But PtE is played in what, one deck? And Snuff Out and burn are rarely played as well.

Thirdly, Legacy is a format of big creatures. The most popular beaters are Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, and Phyrexian Dreadnought. Mongoose simply can't compete with these guys on offense or defense. Interestingly, the most popular deck that has creatures smaller than it (MAYBE other than Goblins) is Merfolk, who couldn't care less about it.

That's why I've switched to Grim Lavamancer. It helps handle the tribal decks that are becoming popular, as well as smaller Exalted guys. It makes Qasali Pridemage and Dark Confidant its bitch. It also puts Goyf wars in your favor. And, it helps Lightning Bolt take down bigger critters.

Likewise, Lorescale isn't very good here either. The only ways you can pump it are with Brainstorm, Ponder, and I suppose Ice. Otherwise, its only going to grow one point per turn. Other Thresh builds at least have Sensei's Divining Top. Honestly, Vendilion Clique, Trygon Predator or Burning Tree Shaman seem much stronger in that slot. Trygon is probably best of those options.

Also, don't play a basic Forest. You can't search for it, and you never want to draw it. You more often than not scoop to a resolved Blood Moon, but you have counters and mana denial to hopefully keep them off the Moon.
Goose is actually managable against edicts. He keeps your goyf alive. The shroud is good because they can't aim an incinerator at your other guy (like lavamancer) before they kill your goyf. Anyway, if edicts are resolving against goblins, you've probably lost. That's one of the biggest cards to stop. Also, having even more outs to lackey is never bad. Lavamancer can just eat a fanatic sometimes.

Also, swords and snuff out are some very popular cards right now. Many black decks such as eva green and team america play snuff out, and I don't really feel the need to mention swords. Having a difficult to remove threat can be very useful when you only run 8-10 total.

You've completely ignored the control matchup I talked about a few posts ago. This deck is already pretty solid against tribal aggro because of the maindeck burn, goyf being bigger than their guys, and sideboarded pyroclasm and EE. You have sb cards against control, but really nothing main other than the hope that stifle/waste will disrupt their manabase when they likely run 24+ manasources. Mongoose puts pressure on them and forces them to deal with him while at the same time invalidating many answers.

DragoFireheart
06-01-2009, 05:06 PM
Well, I am now trying to decide the best sideboard for going into a random / unknown meta. I'd post what decks my local card shops tend to have, but I have not played at them in quite awhile so I have no info.

Here is my projected sideboard:

Sideboard:


4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Submerge
2 Pyroclasm
2 Krosan Grip



On a different note, I'm curious how this decks does against Team America. TA seems similar to this deck but has larger threats and more disruption.

shagman619
06-01-2009, 05:06 PM
I tottaly agree with MUlocke, goose just wins matchups. Shroud is by far what makes him disgusting. Saturday I was playing in the "mirror" against UGW, he drew into two swords which could have easily swung the game back in his favor but goose got there, and made cards in his hand dead.

MULocke
06-01-2009, 05:26 PM
Well, I am now trying to decide the best sideboard for going into a random / unknown meta. I'd post what decks my local card shops tend to have, but I have not played at them in quite awhile so I have no info.

Here is my projected sideboard:

Sideboard:


4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Submerge
2 Pyroclasm
2 Krosan Grip


BEB is usually unnecessary, as you have a solid matchup against most red anyway, and you already have cards to bring in. Some better alternatives are the 3rd pyroclasm, the 4th submerge, disrupt, engineered explosives, trygon predator, threads of disloyalty, or more krosan grips.

The team america matchup can be a bit coin flip dependent because of how good LD is on the play. Their sinkholes don't really give them more than us because daze hoses it. Their mana is not good at all, so the waste/stifle package is better for us. Save your forces for tombstalker (you have better outs to goyf), and always play to race. You can often just overrun them because of the life loss. Submerge out of the sb is awesome.

DragoFireheart
06-01-2009, 05:36 PM
BEB is usually unnecessary, as you have a solid matchup against most red anyway, and you already have cards to bring in. Some better alternatives are the 3rd pyroclasm, the 4th submerge, disrupt, engineered explosives, trygon predator, threads of disloyalty, or more krosan grips.

How about this sideboard?

Sideboard:

1 Trygon Predator
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Submerge
3 Pyroclasm
3 Krosan Grip

1 random Trygon for when I feel the need for more enchantment / artifact removal in the form of a flier.



The team america matchup can be a bit coin flip dependent because of how good LD is on the play. Their sinkholes don't really give them more than us because daze hoses it. Their mana is not good at all, so the waste/stifle package is better for us. Save your forces for tombstalker (you have better outs to goyf), and always play to race. You can often just overrun them because of the life loss. Submerge out of the sb is awesome.

Submerge actually is house on those silly Tombstalkers. Having it bounced once means they most likely will not be able to play it again and even acts like a janky Time Walk as they will draw into the (most likely unplayable) Stalker.

But that wasn't my biggest concern in the MU: the discard and extra land destruction is what concerned me.

So this deck is decent against random.meta? What decks does TT fold to?

Roman Candle
06-01-2009, 05:56 PM
You play Lavamancer? To give him more outs? I mean, Mogg Fanatic and Gempalm Incinerator? Good idea! Not!

I'm willing to give up this vulnerability in exchange for a better turn 2-on.

Aside from that, most Goblin lists are dropping Fanatic entirely.



You are not going to say that removal is rarely played in Legacy...?
From my experience in Annecy, Mongoose is still the killer that is going to win you every controlmatchup. Seriously. I bashed so many heads in with him. Like that Faeries guy from Round 1. When he lost he dropped his hand on the table and revealed Shackles, Bolt and Threads of Disloyalty and was like mimimi. There was absolutely no chance to win that game with Tarmogoyf.

Removal that is played in Legacy is rarely targetted, minus the obvious StP. And against decks that sport Snuff Out's, I'd rather play with Lavamancer, since they tend to deal alot to themselves over the course of a game.


Well, as a 3/3 he still is bigger than most non-Goyf creatures of the format. Tombstalker and Dreadnought are not played frequently. I only worry about Aggroloam since their creatures are also bigger than Goyf. Lavamancer isn't going to help here either. But the Submerges are the nuts against Aggroloam.

Tombstalker and Dreadnought most certainly are played frequently... or maybe you haven't heard of Team America, Eva Green, Sui black, The Rock, Dreadstill, Dread Stalker, Dreadfolk, etc.

Don't bring a knife to a gunfight, and don't bring a 3/3 to fight 4/5's and 5/5's.



Why don't you simply play Nimble Mongoose? It's bigger than the creatures you mentioned and fatties are simply Ice'd and then you swing ftw.
And seriously, with 8 Burn and 4 Spell Snare, these creatures shouldn't be an issue.[QUOTE]

Because Mongoose doesn't do a thing against them outside of the red zone, and most competent players will keep Confidant or Qasali back and abuse their abilities.

It's easy to say that fatties can simply be Ice'd, except you play all of 4 Ice effects and they're relevant for one turn.

[QUOTE]...and they all suck even more than Lavamancer since TempoThresh is dependant on it's manasources and you actually NEVER want to tap out since you want to remain flexible. That's why Mongoose is the optimal creature. Additionally, it doesn't get eaten by removal which is crucial since you are only playing 8 creatures.

If Tempo Thresh was at all worried about keeping mana open, it would play Counterspell instead of Daze and Ponder.


Wooded Foothills any1?

Foothills is rarely played in Tempo Thresh, and even if it was, I would never want to fetch a nonblue land. Ever.

MULocke
06-01-2009, 05:58 PM
Yeah, I said that submerge is really good. My matchup anaylsis was focused on game 1, when you can't do that. Games 2 and 3 are sb dependent, and I don't have as much testing. The extra ld isn't really a big deal because daze is amazing against sinkhole. Just don't get shut out on lands and you'll be okay.

As for bad matchups, the only really hard ones are niche decks. 42 land is basically unwinnable, ichorid is bad without a lot of sb space devoted to it, and the chalice aggro matchups can be tough. Landstill and rock can also be hard if you're not prepared.

DragoFireheart
06-01-2009, 07:26 PM
Well, here is the list that I will try and run for my unknown meta.


Creature [8]
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

Instant [30]
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Fire / Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
1 Rushing River
1 Wipe Away

Sorcery [4]
4 Ponder

Land [18]
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland


Sideboard [15]:

1 Vendilion Clique
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Submerge
3 Pyroclasm
3 Krosan Grip



I put the Clique in the sideboard if I decide I need an extra creature in my MUs. When I get the chance to run a tournament with this I'll post results. The biggest reason I was interested in Tempo Thresh was that I liked Thresh when I played it awhile back, but I was trying to use Counter-Top and didn't like the control aspect of Counter-Top. This tempo version looks more appealing to me along with the fact that it looks solid for random.meta.

Adan
06-02-2009, 08:46 AM
I'm willing to give up this vulnerability in exchange for a better turn 2-on.

How is that possible when Lackey already connected into [insert random stupid Goblin-explosiveness here]


Aside from that, most Goblin lists are dropping Fanatic entirely.

The Goblin build that was played the most at the GP CHicago was the RG Goblin build by Owen Turtenwald which was also piloted by Jim Davis to Place 9 after the Swiss Rounds. He plays 4 Fanatics.


Removal that is played in Legacy is rarely targetted, minus the obvious StP. And against decks that sport Snuff Out's, I'd rather play with Lavamancer, since they tend to deal alot to themselves over the course of a game.

Swords
Path
Lightning Bolt
Fire//Ice
Chain of Plasma
Chain lightning
Magma Jet
Rift Bolt
Ghastly Demise
Smother
Snuff Out
Oblivion Ring
Vindicate (and maybe Maelstrom Pulse)
Vedalken Shackles
Threads of Disloyalty
.
.
.

Non-targeted removal:

EE
Deed
D.Dreams
Edict (and no one plays Edict)

15:3,5 for my argument.


Tombstalker and Dreadnought most certainly are played frequently... or maybe you haven't heard of Team America, Eva Green, Sui black, The Rock, Dreadstill, Dread Stalker, Dreadfolk, etc.

I heard that most of these decks suck.

SuiB has no right to exist since Eva Green. And Eva Green has no right to exist since Team America. This already excludes 2 of your decks.
And agaisnt Eva Green and TA, Submerge and Ice are the nuts.

The Rock is a pesky matchup, but they play at least 4 Swords and 4 Vindicate, as well as 4 Deeds. Playing Lavamancer gives him 12 outs, playing Mongoose only 4. And again, Submerge and Ice are the nuts.

I admit that Dreadstill should be a terrible matchup, but I was quite lucky in ANnecy that he splashed Green for Goyfs. I blew him out of the water g2 and g3 with Submerge, KGrip & EE.

Dreadstalker and Dreadfolk...? I have never seen such decks doing Top8 anywhere.


don't bring a 3/3 to fight 4/5's and 5/5's.

Well, you simply ignore them due to Submerge and Ice and Bounce and walk through them. I don't see a problem here. This is also the main gameplan against such matchups anyway. You won't be able to tempogame properly with Lavamancer.


Because Mongoose doesn't do a thing against them outside of the red zone, and most competent players will keep Confidant or Qasali back and abuse their abilities.

Lavamancer also doesn't do anything against them outside of the Red Zone. And players who are keeping them back also won't get their effect, i.e. drawing cards or disenchanting something (and that is pretty useless agaisn Tempothresh)


It's easy to say that fatties can simply be Ice'd, except you play all of 4 Ice effects and they're relevant for one turn.

That's why you should never play less than 4 Fire/Ice.


If Tempo Thresh was at all worried about keeping mana open, it would play Counterspell instead of Daze and Ponder.

Oh sure, now guess why it plays so many countermagic that costs 0 Mana (Force, Daze) and 1 Mana (Spell Snare and Stifle). And now compare with Counterspell that costs 2 Mana. Counterspell would make you 1 Turn slower as you want to play a threat and being able to counter or Stifle a threat.

Alternatively, you want to find a countermagic piece with Ponder and be able to use it.

Counterspell really adds nothing to this discussion as it is clunky in compairison to Spell Snare.

DragoFireheart
06-02-2009, 04:03 PM
I have a question about Fire/Ice.

Are there any burn spells that are superior to it? How about Chain of Plasma and fitting in a Swans of Bryn Argoll? Too slow?

Roman Candle
06-02-2009, 04:05 PM
How is that possible when Lackey already connected into [insert random stupid Goblin-explosiveness here]

Because the Goblin player will not always open up turn 1 on the play with a Lackey when I have no Lavamancer (or else he also has a solution to this, which can also be countered?) or Lightning Bolt or Force of Will.


The Goblin build that was played the most at the GP CHicago was the RG Goblin build by Owen Turtenwald which was also piloted by Jim Davis to Place 9 after the Swiss Rounds. He plays 4 Fanatics.

However, if you look at the Goblins thread here on The Source, most people are moving to cut Fanatic. And honestly, I feel as though the people here on The Source know alot more than most people at GP: Chicago about Legacy.

Plus, Legacy is constantly evolving. Most of the Goblin decks I've seen played currently do not run Fanatic.



Swords
Path <--nobody plays this
Lightning Bolt <--rarely played because of Goyf
Fire//Ice <---played in, what, one deck?
Chain of Plasma <--never played. ever.
Chain lightning <-- rarely played because of Goyf
Magma Jet <--only burn plays this, and burn never targets creatures
Rift Bolt <---only burn plays this, and burn never targets creatures
Ghastly Demise <---played far less than Edicts
Smother <---played far less than Edicts
Snuff Out <---commonly played, but I would still rather have Lavamancer against decks that pack Snuff Out, as burn is really strong here.
Oblivion Ring <---very, very rarely played, and is going to be even less played now that Qasali has jumped in popularity
Vindicate (and maybe Maelstrom Pulse)<---Vindicate counts, but Maelstrom is unplayed
Vedalken Shackles <--- I'll give it to you, but it's a slow 3-mana card at sorcery speed. Aside from that, it's not as common as other removal
Threads of Disloyalty <---I don't see this card being played very often at all... in fact, I see Sower much more often.
.
.
.

Non-targeted removal:

EE <---the most common removal next to StP
Deed <---Far more common than 2/3 of the cards you named above
D.Dreams
Edict (and no one plays Edict)<---more people play Edicts than Ghastly Demise or Smother

Fixed.


I heard that most of these decks suck.

SuiB has no right to exist since Eva Green. And Eva Green has no right to exist since Team America. This already excludes 2 of your decks.
And agaisnt Eva Green and TA, Submerge and Ice are the nuts.

Just because they have no right to exist, doesn't mean they don't. They do, and they pack Tombstalkers.


The Rock is a pesky matchup, but they play at least 4 Swords and 4 Vindicate, as well as 4 Deeds. Playing Lavamancer gives him 12 outs, playing Mongoose only 4. And again, Submerge and Ice are the nuts.

I've seen a lot of Rock decks play with EE and even Crime/Punishment as well.


I admit that Dreadstill should be a terrible matchup, but I was quite lucky in ANnecy that he splashed Green for Goyfs. I blew him out of the water g2 and g3 with Submerge, KGrip & EE.

Seems lucky. Most Dreadstill lists splash red for REB.


Dreadstalker and Dreadfolk...? I have never seen such decks doing Top8 anywhere.

http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=DreadStalker&format=Legacy

Not a great set of showings, but the deck does exist.


Well, you simply ignore them due to Submerge and Ice and Bounce and walk through them. I don't see a problem here. This is also the main gameplan against such matchups anyway. You won't be able to tempogame properly with Lavamancer.

Playing cards to make Mongoose not bad doesn't seem particularly good.

Grim Lavamancer does one less damage, but is more flexible, and can hit through a fattie if you're stuck without an Ice or Submerge (especially in G1, when you don't have Submerges available)


Lavamancer also doesn't do anything against them outside of the Red Zone. And players who are keeping them back also won't get their effect, i.e. drawing cards or disenchanting something (and that is pretty useless agaisn Tempothresh)

It burns them outside of the red zone... :confused:

And yes, they will get a Confidant's effect or Qasali/Noble Hierarch's Exalted trigger when they keep them back.




That's why you should never play less than 4 Fire/Ice.

Again, playing cards so that Mongoose can connect seems bad when Lavamancer connects every time.


Oh sure, now guess why it plays so many countermagic that costs 0 Mana (Force, Daze) and 1 Mana (Spell Snare and Stifle). And now compare with Counterspell that costs 2 Mana. Counterspell would make you 1 Turn slower as you want to play a threat and being able to counter or Stifle a threat.

Alternatively, you want to find a countermagic piece with Ponder and be able to use it.

Counterspell really adds nothing to this discussion as it is clunky in compairison to Spell Snare.

Of course Counterspell is weak in this deck, nobody is disputing that. You're acting like Lavamancer's R activation cost is making you slower. Worst that happens, you wait a turn to use it. At least it gives you the option to burn something when Mongoose can't swing.

DragoFireheart
06-02-2009, 04:21 PM
Of course Counterspell is weak in this deck, nobody is disputing that. You're acting like Lavamancer's R activation cost is making you slower. Worst that happens, you wait a turn to use it. At least it gives you the option to burn something when Mongoose can't swing.

And since we run only 8 threats, you MIGHT get one activation out of it as it is likely to get blown up.

With mongoose? Nope.

Lets take a second look at the removal list:

Swords

Path <-- Zoo, a DTB, plays this. I suspect that fast aggro decks that have white will start to pick this up. Hell, control decks like landstill may pick this up, and considering that many top decks don't always run a lot of basics... path IS worth considering.

Lightning Bolt <--We see this in Burn, Goyf Sligh and more importantly, Zoo. Also, this deck as well. Yes, Burn decks can still be relevant.

Chain lightning <-- This will get seen in Burn, Goyf Sligh and Zoo.

Snuff Out <--- Grim isn't going to do anything against decks that are packing this. They'll most likely kill your Goyf and just race your Grim, who will only deal 2 damage at most. If they are playing Tombstalker, there is a good chance they will empty their yard, and the Grims shock ability will FURTHER shrink any future Gofys.

Vindicate (and maybe Maelstrom Pulse)<--- How is Maelstrom unplayed? Eva Green is going to pick it up, and I can imagine other decks may also pick it up as it can be a great way to kill tokens, which are relevant in Ichroid and Goblin, and some storm MUs.

Vedalken Shackles <--- Shackles is quite common in more controllish Thresh decks (counter-top).

Jitte <--- Merfolk may run this. Only one counter will take out your Grim, while goose doesn't care.

.
.
.

Non-targeted removal:

EE <--- If they can get the mana against this deck (3 mana for one goose). We have stifle to stop it as well.
Deed <--- Same as EE, but costs EVER more (4 mana for one goose).
D.Dreams <---
Edict <--- Hardly anyone plays this. Goblins play their goblin edict, but that is it.

So goose is hit by 4, while Grim gets hit by 12. Not only that, Grim has some dis-synergy with your Goyf as it can shrink it. Sure, he provides extra removal VS smaller creatures, but that does no good if he can be removed.

Roman Candle
06-02-2009, 04:42 PM
And since we run only 8 threats, you MIGHT get one activation out of it as it is likely to get blown up.

There are a number of decks that play little to no spot removal at all. Merfolk and Elf Survival are moderately popular builds that don't, and Lavamancer is tits against them.

The problem with Mongoose is, as creatures get bigger, Mongoose begins to suck more and more. Nowadays, its very difficult to swing in with Mongoose.


Lets take a second look at the removal list:

Swords

Path <-- Zoo, a DTB, plays this. I suspect that fast aggro decks that have white will start to pick this up. Hell, control decks like landstill may pick this up, and considering that many top decks don't always run a lot of basics... path IS worth considering.

Lightning Bolt <--We see this in Burn, Goyf Sligh and more importantly, Zoo. Also, this deck as well. Yes, Burn decks can still be relevant.

Chain lightning <-- This will get seen in Burn, Goyf Sligh and Zoo.

Snuff Out <--- Grim isn't going to do anything against decks that are packing this. They'll most likely kill your Goyf and just race your Grim, who will only deal 2 damage at most. If they are playing Tombstalker, there is a good chance they will empty their yard, and the Grims shock ability will FURTHER shrink any future Gofys.

Vindicate (and maybe Maelstrom Pulse)<--- How is Maelstrom unplayed? Eva Green is going to pick it up, and I can imagine other decks may also pick it up as it can be a great way to kill tokens, which are relevant in Ichroid and Goblin, and some storm MUs.

Vedalken Shackles <--- Shackles is quite common in more controllish Thresh decks (counter-top).

Jitte <--- Merfolk may run this. Only one counter will take out your Grim, while goose doesn't care.

.
.
.

Non-targeted removal:

EE <--- If they can get the mana against this deck (3 mana for one goose). We have stifle to stop it as well.
Deed <--- Same as EE, but costs EVER more (4 mana for one goose).
D.Dreams <---
Edict <--- Hardly anyone plays this. Goblins play their goblin edict, but that is it.

So goose is hit by 4, while Grim gets hit by 12. Not only that, Grim has some dis-synergy with your Goyf as it can shrink it. Sure, he provides extra removal VS smaller creatures, but that does no good if he can be removed.

I'm not arguing that Lavamancer is not more vulnerable than Mongoose. Obviously that would be false. What I am arguing is that Lavamancer is a stronger inclusion, for reasons outlined above. It's never going to shrink your Goyf if you're even a semi-competent player. However, it handles smaller creature strategies and breaks ground stalemates caused by larger creatures. Now, it is more vulnerable, and as such, I feel it should be supported by another beater, whether that be Vendilion Clique, Burning Tree Shaman, or Trygon Predator.

DragoFireheart
06-02-2009, 04:53 PM
There are a number of decks that play little to no spot removal at all. Merfolk and Elf Survival are moderately popular builds that don't, and Lavamancer is tits against them.

The problem with Mongoose is, as creatures get bigger, Mongoose begins to suck more and more. Nowadays, its very difficult to swing in with Mongoose.


If the opponent IS getting big beats out (Other than goyf), then this deck isn't doing it right. The whole point of the deck is to be cheap on the curve while denying the opponent mana. Goose is big for it's cost, is immune to roughly half of the formats commonly used removal and loves all the stuff going into the yard without having to worry about making our Gofy smaller.



I'm not arguing that Lavamancer is not more vulnerable than Mongoose. Obviously that would be false. What I am arguing is that Lavamancer is a stronger inclusion, for reasons outlined above. It's never going to shrink your Goyf if you're even a semi-competent player. However, it handles smaller creature strategies and breaks ground stalemates caused by larger creatures. Now, it is more vulnerable, and as such, I feel it should be supported by another beater, whether that be Vendilion Clique, Burning Tree Shaman, or Trygon Predator.

Yes, you can control what cards you use. But, it's limited, and small creatures are handled by our Bolts, Fires and Clasms (game 2 + 3). Grim is redundant and would be a lot better if it didn't need mana and two cards. Grim is a more controllish creature and doesn't fit the theme. Furthemore, mongoose is house vs control decks of any sort. Mongoose doesn't need mana or any nonsense: just play the game and swing with it.

This deck wants to cripple it's opponent by kicking them in the "nuts" (lands), throwing rocks at them (burn spells) and letting it's pet dog bite them (Goyfs) in a short period of time.

Atog
06-03-2009, 07:49 AM
I look deckcheck.com and this came towards: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=26814

There was some new cards to me to add sideboard and those were ancient grudge and dead/gone. I tested that grudge yesterday and that was gooood. Our worst enemy chalice of the void and 3spere will both fall down to that usually. That 2for1-trade is nice. How about that dead/gone, that works against many decks and that gone-side is tech against tombstalkers and naughts. Need to test that more, but havent ever even think about that card. Until now.

ps. How can i link cards to gathering etc.?

rancOr_
06-03-2009, 12:28 PM
Dead//gone aint needed as u alrdy have burn/submerge/bounce spells instead.
Ancient Grudge is a good card,but u can better play Trygon Predator side as it does the same thing,and can actually attack with evasion+pitch to FoW.

FoulQ
06-03-2009, 12:52 PM
About the Mogg Fanatic thing, I did a quick survey of the 20 most recent deckcheck legacy goblins list and came up with

4 Mogg: 12
3 Mogg: 6
0 Mogg: 2

I realize deckcheck isn't to be completely relied on, but this is still relevant data. And I know personally as a goblins player most people are not dropping moggs and if they are its down to 3. It may be in the future but the dropping is still experimental at this point.

Also coming from my side of the table, I'm excited to hear people are dropping mongoose for lavamancer. Mongoose is a pain in the ass and once he is online he is difficult to get through without warren weirding, and if threats are followed up (more mongeese / goyf) then things become even more difficult. Mongoose is great vs control and I'm sorry but he has always caused me problems playing goblins.

Lavamancer, on the other hand, is extremely clunky, and I can't wait to consistently shut him down with waste/port while attacking with my bigger guys. He acts as more of a speed bump than anything, honestly lavamancer is overrated against goblins in particular especially when he is fanaticable.

Atog
06-03-2009, 04:49 PM
Dead//gone aint needed as u alrdy have burn/submerge/bounce spells instead.
Ancient Grudge is a good card,but u can better play Trygon Predator side as it does the same thing,and can actually attack with evasion+pitch to FoW.

That predator has that problem that you can't destroy that chalice example your opponents EOT. And that gets blocked, bolted or other way stopped too often :/ Yes, that can hit more than two artifact than grudge but if there is situation that opponent has ghostly prison x2 or some other dude that is bigger than your predator there grudge shines. That predator is ok, in counter/top version because 3cc cost but i think that grudge is in this case better choice for tempo-version.

DragoFireheart
06-05-2009, 08:36 PM
So I did a little bit of research in trying to find other creatures for the deck.

How about a Serendib Efreet? Too slow?

keys
06-05-2009, 08:45 PM
Well, it's only 3 power for 3 mana with a relevant drawback. The large backside is nice, but I think it's generally accepted that Vendillion Clique is just more useful.

DragoFireheart
06-05-2009, 08:48 PM
Well, it's only 3 power for 3 mana with a relevant drawback. The large backside is nice, but I think it's generally accepted that Vendillion Clique is just more useful.

Then thats that. Lorescale is too slow, Predator might be an option... but I have looked and can't find anything other than Vendillion Clique for a creature with evasion that's 3 CMC or cheaper and at least 2 power.

Which makes mongoose seem all the much better for keeping 4-of.

Is there room for echoing truth in this deck? Either main or side?

ScatmanX
06-05-2009, 11:47 PM
I played Goblins agains't UGR tempo thresh today and, though I've won, Mogoose was what stalled the game for ages. I couldn't Fanatic it, Gempalm it, neither Stingscourer it. Damn creature sure is worth it's 4 slots.

Cenarius
06-06-2009, 08:42 AM
I'm currently playtesting this list:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Fire/ice
4 Force of Will
2 Force Spike (yes, indeed)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

4 Ponder

4 Wooded Foothills
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard

4 Submerge
3 Pithing Needle
4 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
2 Krosan Grip

As you can see I dropped the bounce's. I already played only 1 Rushing River and 1 Vendillion Clique (instead of the Wipe Away). However in like 80% of the case's Rushing River was a dead card to me. Although Vendillion Clique was good against certain Matchup's (ANT, Landstill etc.) it just doesn't fit in the strategy as much as a tempo-gainer aka disrupt/force spike.
Force Spike is much better than Disrupt since Force spike can counter many more targets (For Example):
Sensei's Divining Top (probably the most horrible card to be on the opponent's side)
Lackey
Vial
Creatures: Goyf's, Confidant's, Tombstalker's etc.
Counterbalance
Explosives
Deed
Jitte
Standstill
Stifle (after Dreadnought for example)
Moat (some people play them in their Landstill decks, atleast they do it here)
Abyss (some people play them in their Landstill decks, atleast they do it here)
You all probably know more target's then I just mentioned. And the best part it also hits Cantrip's, Chant's and Duress etc.

Force Spike is overall a much better card to play in the slots you gained by removing the bounce('s) and/or Clique.

Force Spike helps a lot against the bad matchup's. Overall Daze's are very powerfull against Landstill decks, which is a tough matchup to beat, no matter what list. It also helps against Counter-top decks, which are also hard to beat, even with the submerge's etc on sideboard.
It just seems unneccesary to put your whole trust on 1 or 2 outs in your deck if something big lands on the other side of the table. You should actively counter every cantrip, hit every land they have, dropping your mongoose and march to the finish line. Force Spike helps a lot when playing this strategy, Rushing River does not.

When playing postboard, I simply sideboard Rushing River 9 out of the 10 times out since my sideboard cards are much better than the singleton Rushing River and/or Wipe Away, althought you could mention some matchup where u want to sideboard out other cards, however they are less frequent then sideboarding RR/WA out.

There is ofcourse lots of things to say but I proceed with another (weird) thing in my decklist, the manabase.
Simply playing 4 Wooded Foothills, 2 Polluted Delta's and 2 Flooded Strand is weird but doesn't matter a thing on the outside. However playing a Turn 1 Wooded Foothills and passing the turn will confuse your opponent when fetching to Tropical Island into Stifle, Spell Snare, Daze.
Pithing Needle isn't much of an argument but i'll just put it in there. But to not let know that you play a TT/blue deck list is vital for playing the bluff/tempo role. You'll find it better than 4 delta and 4 strand if you test it against random decks against random opponents (however that might be a hard one :D).

The sideboard is pretty tight, your simply want to put 20 cards in it to make all matchup's favourable. However this is just not the case.

4 Submerge are needed, don't play 3 cause it seems nicer. Submerge's are probably boarded in 50-60% of the time, since 70% of the metagame will play creatures (Goblins and Merfolk makes up probably 10% ^^).
4 Hydroblast are probably the best cards after Submerge. Landstill, ANT and Merfolk and maybe Threshold (if you want to board them in) are played frequently.
Then you'll simply need to make a sideboard that helps you to win against simply not winnable matchups. Ichorid is an example of that, however I dont want to put 4 cards (crypt) in my sideboard and still have a big chance of losing the matchup.
Pithing Needle's are pretty good since they have kick-ass target's:
Vial (probably the best)
Survival
Factory
Elspeth
Top (however i do not know if you want to board it in against Counterbalance-top, maybe you do want it)
Jitte (however you'll probably win against the decks they play it)
EE's
Deed's
Rishidan Port
Wasteland

However for some reason the compete with Pyroclasm, to me. Playing more Pyroclasm than 2 helps you against all tribal decks. Tribal decks are pretty hard to beat, especially if they go the nuts. 1 Pyroclasm will win those matchup´s. Playing more of them means a better chance of having one, which means a better chance to win the matchup. However since Pithing Needle has targets that hits Vial (Goblins and Merfolk) and other frequently played cards, Pithing Needle is probably the way to go.
I'll have to test a lot more postboard games against Merfolk and Goblins to be absolutely sure.
Krosan Grip's are pretty sweet to, so you probably want to play two if you play 0 bounce spells mainboard.

I hope it's readable :D. I'm simply to lazy to read it all over. Hopefully some people will respond on my conclusions or in other words putting an update of my Tempo Threshold list on thesource, to create a better deck with the help of all of you.

Atog
06-06-2009, 09:35 AM
I'm currently playtesting this list:
...


Two force spikes? Isn't there too much risk to draw late game that and makes it quite death in most cases? I think 4x dazes are maxinum number just with that reason. How have that force spike been working for you?



4 Hydroblast are probably the best cards after Submerge. Landstill, ANT and Merfolk and maybe Threshold (if you want to board them in) are played frequently.


Hydroblast? I think you mean pyroblast :)

Bahamuth
06-06-2009, 12:19 PM
Two force spikes? Isn't there too much risk to draw late game that and makes it quite death in most cases? I think 4x dazes are maxinum number just with that reason. How have that force spike been working for you?


Force Spike has been amazing at times. This deck rarely really needs topdecks in the late game, because it never really gets there, or loses there anyway. I haven't seen a situation so far where Force Spike was dead, and I never really wished it was something else. I'd love to include a 3th, but there's really nothing to cut.

Adan
06-06-2009, 12:20 PM
I also think that Force Spike sucks. It's a Daze for which you have to keep mana open. That's enough said I guess (because the deck already wants to keep enough mana open anyway, Force Spike would be redundant to that).

Bouncespells on the other side are pretty good solutions to fix boardpotitions which you can't handle otherwise (i.e. when 2 Goyfs are stalled by 2 Goyfs. R.River shines here).
Wipe Away on a Dreadnought is also nice and Wipe Away on a Humility can steal the win as the guy with Humility will probably let you resolve multiple creatures etc.
Just insert anything Cenarius has listed above and notice that Force Spike can only counter them if your mana-denial strategy was successfull and if you have mana open.

There is just no reason why not to play Bounce Spells. Because otherwise it will be like "Oh fuck, XYZ has resolved, now I lose"

Bahamuth
06-06-2009, 12:39 PM
I also think that Force Spike sucks. It's a Daze for which you have to keep mana open. That's enough said I guess (because the deck already wants to keep enough mana open anyway, Force Spike would be redundant to that).

Bouncespells on the other side are pretty good solutions to fix boardpotitions which you can't handle otherwise (i.e. when 2 Goyfs are stalled by 2 Goyfs. R.River shines here).
Wipe Away on a Dreadnought is also nice and Wipe Away on a Humility can steal the win as the guy with Humility will probably let you resolve multiple creatures etc.
Just insert anything Cenarius has listed above and notice that Force Spike can only counter them if your mana-denial strategy was successfull and if you have mana open.

There is just no reason why not to play Bounce Spells. Because otherwise it will be like "Oh fuck, XYZ has resolved, now I lose"

I choose not to play bounce, because I absolutely hate drawing it. It's very very often dead, especially the 3CC bounce. I really don't care if my deck loses game 1 to a random Humility or whatever. I have SB 2-3 Grip for that.

Also, comparing Force Spike to Daze is by no means relevant here, other than that we can simply conclude that Daze is better, since we already run 4 Daze.

How is Force Spike redundant, because you have to keep mana open? It happens alot that you're able to counter a spell with both a Force Spike and a Daze.

DragoFireheart
06-06-2009, 12:45 PM
I choose not to play bounce, because I absolutely hate drawing it. It's very very often dead, especially the 3CC bounce. I really don't care if my deck loses game 1 to a random Humility or whatever. I have SB 2-3 Grip for that.


This seems like poor justification for not running bounce. What if that bounce spell could have won you game one?

Atog
06-06-2009, 12:59 PM
This seems like poor justification for not running bounce. What if that bounce spell could have won you game one?

Yup. I think i have more games WITH bounce when i have draw one, compared when i haven't. It's just sweet to bounce blockker/s EOT and swing to win. Not to mention to get an option to bounce dreadnought or tombstalker etc.


..

I'm also curious what do you to resolved dreadnaught or Countryside Crusher what grows example 15/15?

Bahamuth
06-06-2009, 01:59 PM
It's not a poor justification. If I often find myself hating drawing the card, that means the card is not usefull by any means in that situation. Therefore, it's better to be replaced by something that is useful in many stages of the game.


I'm also curious what do you to resolved dreadnaught or Countryside Crusher what grows example 15/15?

I'm curious what you do to an Ichorid player too. Or to a 43.land player. My plan against Dreadnought and Crusher is to counter them, and perhaps to Bolt the Crusher. Nothing else. Don't tell me I can't always have a counter for those cards, I know. I just don't want to run a card I don't want to draw in my mainboard.

Atog
06-06-2009, 02:16 PM
It's not a poor justification. If I often find myself hating drawing the card, that means the card is not usefull by any means in that situation. Therefore, it's better to be replaced by something that is useful in many stages of the game.

I'm curious what you do to an Ichorid player too. Or to a 43.land player. My plan against Dreadnought and Crusher is to counter them, and perhaps to Bolt the Crusher. Nothing else. Don't tell me I can't always have a counter for those cards, I know. I just don't want to run a card I don't want to draw in my mainboard.

Ichorid, nothing. That would take too much sideboard space so not worth it. 43.land comes against rarery so won't take stress about winning that. Oh well, maybe i just keep playing those bounces over something else "useful" and get playing around opponent dazes / force spikes..

Blitzbold
06-06-2009, 02:50 PM
I am not convinced of Force Spike in the main instead of bounce. My current list still contains a single Rushing River while the other slot is currently occupied by a Trygon Predator.

For reference, my SB currently looks like this:

3 Submerge
2 Disrupt
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroclasm
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt

Cenarius
06-07-2009, 07:43 AM
I'm so curious why all people hate changes in a deck, especially when noone tested it (maybe except you Adan).
You're mentioning when Rushing River is insane. Bouncing a Humility, Bouncing 2 oppossing Goyfs, and Wipe Away a Dreadnought. Well it's probably for certain that landstill decks having 5 mana is about to win the game anyway, playing against 2 Tarmogoyf's is probably a mistake by yourself since you have dozens of answers to come up with. Wipe Away a Dreadnought comes up like 5%% of the time?
I think you'll need to test things first before drawing conclusions about a card. Keeping one mana open is no big deal, you can simply choose what do do. Force Spike a turn 2 Counterbalance and Spell Snare-ing his Tarmogoyf are some examples for that matter or opponent Fetches stifle and then he's for sure doing nothing.
Having Daze #5 and #6 is awesome to have. People can't play arround two daze's and if they do, you probably got enough time to take him to lethal. Hoping for your bounce spells is already waiting to lose the game. I think Bahamuth already answered the question what to do against a Dreadnought/Countryside Crusher. Dreadstill is probably the hardest matchup arround since it has arround 30 cards that are good against you and maybe even more. Force Spike shines in this matchup since putting pressure on his manabase will make Daze + Force Spike so much better.

I think all of you need to test it first to draw any conclusions. Am I right?

Force Spike is a great tempo card, however the 3rd is a hard choice. I think the cards that are in doubt (by many players probably) are:

4th Ponder, hate him to see at turn 1/openingshand. Maybe three helps to let me see one on turn 2/3 when I'm able to play a sorcery. However I'm just an human and did not test any TT list with just 7 cantrips, so I might be on the wrong track by removing a ponder.

4th Fire/ice, however with 0 bounce and no clique its probably bad to remove such a card.

2nd Force Spike (ye you read it correctly)

18th Land, probably a Fetch when playing 8. Since you only have CC 2: 8x and CC1 and CC0 the rest.

I'm not sure if any of the cards that are mentioned are worse than a third Force Spike.

For certain your sideboard looks pretty weird Blitzbold.
Why do you want to play 3 Submerge and why do you want to play 2 Tormod's Crypt? Why did you remove 2 pyroblast and why did you replace it with Disrupt? Why do you play Red Elemental Blast?

Blitzbold
06-07-2009, 08:11 AM
For certain your sideboard looks pretty weird Blitzbold.
Why do you want to play 3 Submerge and why do you want to play 2 Tormod's Crypt? Why did you remove 2 pyroblast and why did you replace it with Disrupt? Why do you play Red Elemental Blast?

The SB is the one I used for 2 back-to-back wins at our local tournament. Even small success > weird looks I guess.

I did not start with Caplan's board and changed things at random as it seems you want to imply, but I worked on the SB as it stands by now by taking into account the specifis of our local meta. However, I think that it is in fact a board one could use at larger events, too.

REB's were more or less an addition I made the evening before and I simply did not think about Pyroblasts in that slot. On the other hand I never had problems reaching threshold even though Blasts would mean a marginal improvement for this purpose.

Cenarius
06-07-2009, 10:45 AM
Even though you made succes with the board you have, a more consistent board even helps more. Disrupt are less important than pyroblast #3 and #4, since it helps in more matchups than Disrupt.

Blitzbold
06-07-2009, 12:14 PM
Even though you made succes with the board you have, a more consistent board even helps more. Disrupt are less important than pyroblast #3 and #4, since it helps in more matchups than Disrupt.

As soon as you have to play against decks which try to Hymn or Sinkhole you turn 2 with quite some consistency you will learn about the value of additional 1cc counters beside Daze and Snare.

Cenarius
06-07-2009, 12:47 PM
Uuh lol, how about contradicting yourself :eek: .

"As soon as you have to play against decks which try to Hymn or Sinkhole you turn 2 with quite some consistency you will learn about the value of additional 1cc counters beside Daze and Snare."

My list plays 2 Force Spike Mainboard. I know the value of a 1-cc counter. Force Spike shines as a 1-cc counter and don't tell me that someone always have ritual hymn because thats like one in a hundred.
First you say: nah force spike is bad, and now you're saying you will learn about the value of additional 1cc counters beside Daze and Snare. Damn that's pretty weird. It's even on the same page.

Oke, but seriously the benefit you'll get from hydroblast is far more superior to the fact that disrupt helps versus Hymn to Tourach and Sinkhole since the matchups against these decks already are great or atleast 50%. On the other hand matchups like Merfolk, Dreadstill, Threshold and Landstill -horrible matchup's or less than 50% or close to 50% - are helped effectively by hydroblasts.

Blitzbold
06-07-2009, 02:02 PM
Uuh lol, how about contradicting yourself :eek: .

"As soon as you have to play against decks which try to Hymn or Sinkhole you turn 2 with quite some consistency you will learn about the value of additional 1cc counters beside Daze and Snare."

My list plays 2 Force Spike Mainboard. I know the value of a 1-cc counter. Force Spike shines as a 1-cc counter and don't tell me that someone always have ritual hymn because thats like one in a hundred.
First you say: nah force spike is bad, and now you're saying you will learn about the value of additional 1cc counters beside Daze and Snare. Damn that's pretty weird. It's even on the same page.


I am not convinced of Force Spike in the main instead of bounce.

Harsh answer: Learn to read. Neither did I talk about "always Ritual + Hymn" nor did I disqualified the usefulnes of Force Spike from the beginning. I rather talked about quite some consistency to either face either Hymn or Sinkhole on turn 2, which is quite probable from a statistical point of view assuming that 4 of each are played.

My answer: I said that I am not convicend of Force Spike because I did not have the chance to test them. I can foresee them being situationally good or even great, but I also predict them to suck from time to time. I am not convinced of them because the maindecked bounce never sucked for me whenever I drew them - there always was some helpful application.


Oke, but seriously the benefit you'll get from hydroblast is far more superior to the fact that disrupt helps versus Hymn to Tourach and Sinkhole since the matchups against these decks already are great or atleast 50%. On the other hand matchups like Merfolk, Dreadstill, Threshold and Landstill -horrible matchup's or less than 50% or close to 50% - are helped effectively by hydroblasts.

Hydroblasts or Pyroblast? ;) - But enough of the nitpickiness, ok?

However, you are right in pointing out that Pyroblast is helpful in quite some instances where Disrupt won't help at all. But the same can be said for the Blasts. My board might look wierd at the first glance, but you'll notice that nearly all of the cards in fact do have similar purposes. Disrupt, while obviously narrow, has similar applications as the blasts, but shines in others matchups next to the blues ones as well.

Do you really experience problems against merfolk? This question is not meant to blame you, but for real interest, since in my experience this is one of the MUs you'd rather look forward to play against with red Thresh.

I did not have the chance to play against Dreadstill yet, since it seems to have vanished over here. It doesn't look very promising, though.

Thresh on Thresh matches are always very dependent on the lists used, e.g. Counterbalance / Tempo, splash-color and so on. Skill and experience of the players are also very important here. A good sideboard obv. helps here, but I can't see any advantages of boarding 4 blasts vs. 2 blasts + 2 disrupt. In fact I won a counterwar by disrupting a FoW 3 weeks ago. Good times. :-)

TheCramp
06-07-2009, 09:04 PM
Has anyone ever tried Sygg, River Cut-Throat? He seems better in this deck than confidant would be, Plays well with red sweepers from the side, and going ago with a goose on your turn, drawing a card, and cantriping a lightning bolt on their eot is pretty cool too.

DragoFireheart
06-07-2009, 10:07 PM
Has anyone ever tried Sygg, River Cut-Throat? He seems better in this deck than confidant would be, Plays well with red sweepers from the side, and going ago with a goose on your turn, drawing a card, and cantriping a lightning bolt on their eot is pretty cool too.

He's way too small and doesn't have any sort of clock. Also, if you have no burn and just him, he's useless.

Blitzbold
06-08-2009, 02:56 AM
Yeah, a friend of mine suggested him for creature #9 and possibly #10, but I disliked him for doing not enough on his own. Predator or Clique at least provide flying beats even when their abilities aren't relevant.

Bahamuth
06-08-2009, 04:16 AM
I made top 8 in a 74-man tournament using the list with 2 Force Spike yesterday. I haven't seen Force Spike often, but I never wished it was something else, which is quite important for me when deciding wether the card is worth the inclusion. I noticed the card functions very similar to Spell Snare, and is generally usefull in comparable situations. I remember countering a FoW on Stifle, a Morphling, 1 or 2 Goyfs and a Vial.

My matches were against: Landstill, MUC, Dreadstill, CB Thresh, RG aggro (loss), Belcher, and Progenitus Thresh (draw). I lost my top8 match to Merfolk. I agree that Merfolk should certainly be a good matchup, but it's easily underestimated. I lost my first game to a Back to Basics, which I didn't see coming at all. My board plan is just insane, since I get to bring in 9 cards (4 blast, 3 Needle and 2 Pyroclasm). I was way ahead in my second game but started topdecking 5 land in a row at some point, where he got the upper hand back and beat me to death with a Wake Thrasher.

I wouldn't consider trying to add a 3th Spike. We can't afford to lose a Ponder at all, since they're needed to find a clock or a land. Cutting a land is also a bad idea in my opinion. I had to take mulligans quite alot yesterday, and most were because of land. I would maybe consider cutting a Fire//Ice, but I'm pretty sure it would be better to just leave it at this.

Genericcactus
06-08-2009, 12:55 PM
I have some questions about sideboard strategies. It seems pretty straightforward what cards should be brought in against which matchups (Submerge against goyfs/tombstalkers, Pyroblast against blue decks, Disrupt against ANT, mirror, and Eva Green), but I find it difficult deciding what to take out. Any helpful suggestions?

johanessen
06-08-2009, 02:38 PM
Does anyone tryed Terravore as the creature #9?
With all fetchlands and LD package can be bigger than our opponent's tarmagoyf. However, we'll have to side it on g2 and 3 fearing Relics and even Perish. But it's a great body that kills in one or two turns, tha'ts tempo!

Quite standard list

4 Tarmo
4 Geese
1 Vore

4 Fow
4 Daze
4 Snare
4 Stifle
4 Bolts
4 F/I
4 BS
4 Ponder
1 RR

4 Wooded
2 Flooded
2 Polluted
3 Volcanic
3 Tropical
4 Waste

SB:

4 Submerge
4 Disrupt
4 REB
1 Pyro
1 EE
1 KGrip

Atog
06-09-2009, 11:09 AM
I have some questions about sideboard strategies. It seems pretty straightforward what cards should be brought in against which matchups (Submerge against goyfs/tombstalkers, Pyroblast against blue decks, Disrupt against ANT, mirror, and Eva Green), but I find it difficult deciding what to take out. Any helpful suggestions?



(Submerge against goyfs/tombstalkers

It depends how many submerges you play. I usually side out l.bolts and 3x submerges in and something else. If there are any targets for stifle they of course are sided out.


Pyroblast against blue decks

Pyroblast goes usually in dazes slot, they are great against landstill and agains cb.deck, looking for counterwar when resolving counterbalance.

ANT:

Bounces won't do nothing in this matchup (there is little change to bounce shusher, but it dies burns anyway..). You may want sideout Stifles too, somebody will say "they hit to storm", but if they resolve Ad Nauseam then they usually win anyway with chant, duress or similar backup. If you sideout stifles, then you can side in pyroblasts. They hit brainstorms, ponders and mysticals. And maybe even Pact of negation.

Mirror:

Disrupts and submerges in. Out goes: bounce and spell snares. There aren't too many targets for that snare (tarmo and fire/ice). Or if you are on draw then i would side out dazes instead of snares.

Eva Green:

Stifles aren't necessary good here, they could hit fetch or wasteland but there is better cards to bring in. Disrupts and submerges. Out goes those stifles and maybe 2x bounce, depending if you see tombstalker. You maybe want to left some additional answer besides submerge.

There my sideplans, i think somebody will correct some things there but that's for start :)

johanessen
06-09-2009, 02:13 PM
ANT:

Bounces won't do nothing in this matchup (there is little change to bounce shusher, but it dies burns anyway..). You may want sideout Stifles too, somebody will say "they hit to storm", but if they resolve Ad Nauseam then they usually win anyway with chant, duress or similar backup. If you sideout stifles, then you can side in pyroblasts. They hit brainstorms, ponders and mysticals. And maybe even Pact of negation.


Stifle hits moxes, and fetchlands, they're worth it. If you have Disrupt on sideboard it's okay you side em, but sideing out for pyroblast is a bad idea.

Atog
06-09-2009, 03:03 PM
Stifle hits moxes, and fetchlands, they're worth it. If you have Disrupt on sideboard it's okay you side em, but sideing out for pyroblast is a bad idea.

You maybe be right. Just haven't ever think about stifling mox. Dunno if that would make them manascrew or not, gotta keep that on mind.. Works against dragonstorm too, might even be better against them.

I read today GP:Chicago 09, and noticed that Caplan was playing in g3 against nassif, submerge, stifle,EE, REB and lighting bolt. So i'm thinking what did he side out and how many copies of certain card? REBs/pyroblasts replace dazes but what else? If he sided full sets of those cards that makes 9 cards, and maybe that lone krosan grip too, what just don't showed in that game.

BKclassic
06-09-2009, 03:21 PM
Stifle hits moxes, and fetchlands, they're worth it. If you have Disrupt on sideboard it's okay you side em, but sideing out for pyroblast is a bad idea.

I believe that correct sideboarding should be something like:

Out: Burn Spells
In: Disrupt and Red Blasts

Probably an EE for Wipe Away as well.

johanessen
06-09-2009, 03:24 PM
I believe that correct sideboarding should be something like:

Out: Burn Spells
In: Disrupt and Red Blasts

Probably an EE for Wipe Away as well.

Well, that depends of what kind of combo opponent plays. If it's a pure Add Nauseam Lightning Bolts are good to down his life at ten or so asap so they can't cast Nauseam without Angel's grace.

Atog
06-11-2009, 05:00 AM
How you folks have managed to win against dreadge? Played yesterday against that (was ledless version) and pulle one 2-1 win but lose rest of games. Sided out snares, dazes and bounces for REBs, disrupts, EE and pyroclasm. Do we just scoop for that matchup and concentrate on other matchups? And what is most relevant target for stifle to hit? Coliseum? Narcomoebas? Sage?

Elfrago
06-11-2009, 05:46 AM
How you folks have managed to win against dreadge? Played yesterday against that (was ledless version) and pulle one 2-1 win but lose rest of games. Sided out snares, dazes and bounces for REBs, disrupts, EE and pyroclasm. Do we just scoop for that matchup and concentrate on other matchups? And what is most relevant target for stifle to hit? Coliseum? Narcomoebas? Sage?

Mmm... I vould side out stifle and keep daze in. Having a counter for their first turn spell it's just sooo important. Really, without a proper SB, the only way to win the matchup is slowing them down countering their early discard outlet (and hoping it works).

Xero_2285
06-11-2009, 05:52 AM
Mmm... I vould side out stifle and keep daze in. Having a counter for their first turn spell it's just sooo important. Really, without a proper SB, the only way to win the matchup is slowing them down countering their early discard outlet (and hoping it works).


Side out Stifle? Wouldn't you side out Spell Snare? It's useless in that mu.

lolosoon
06-11-2009, 06:27 AM
Side out Stifle? Wouldn't you side out Spell Snare? It's useless in that mu.
QFT

Stifle Narcomoebas trigger is one efficient way to slow down Ichorid.

So, if you want to win vs dredge :
- Counter early discard effect (or burn Putrid Imp to death, but it's already too late)
- Stifle Narco's abilities (so they can't easily flashback Therapies or Dread Returns)
- Take those Ichorid beatings like a man
- Beat face with Goose'n Goyf before they can recover

Add some SB pieces like Pyroclasm, EE, or Crypts if you pack them, and light a candle.

And remember, an unthreshed Mongoose and Pyroclasm helps getting rid of their tokens AND their Bridges.

Xero_2285
06-11-2009, 06:41 AM
That's what I was thinking. My normal SB plan usually goes like this: -4 Spell Snare, -4 Fire/Ice, -1 R.R., -1 Ponder, +4 Disrupt, +2 REB, +2 Pyroblast, +1 Pyroclasm, +1 E.E.. Am I wrong to take out the Fire/Ice?

Elfrago
06-11-2009, 06:44 AM
Side out Stifle? Wouldn't you side out Spell Snare? It's useless in that mu.

Sure but he wanted to side both REBs and Disrupts so something else has to come out...but maybe you're right, probably is better to side out bolt or fire/ice

Atog
06-11-2009, 10:14 AM
QFT

Stifle Narcomoebas trigger is one efficient way to slow down Ichorid.

So, if you want to win vs dredge :
- Counter early discard effect (or burn Putrid Imp to death, but it's already too late)
- Stifle Narco's abilities (so they can't easily flashback Therapies or Dread Returns)
- Take those Ichorid beatings like a man
- Beat face with Goose'n Goyf before they can recover

Add some SB pieces like Pyroclasm, EE, or Crypts if you pack them, and light a candle.

And remember, an unthreshed Mongoose and Pyroclasm helps getting rid of their tokens AND their Bridges.

Here came some ideas what haven't event thinked about (pyroclasming own mongoose and zombies). Just thought that if i have tarmo what is 0/1 or 1/2, is there any sense to bolt that so bridges go rfg. I think that depend what else i have hand? So if have another tarmo of goose this maybe be a idea?

What is your sideboard looking like? Do you have any crypts to bring against dredge?

Serbitar
06-12-2009, 05:19 AM
If there are bridges (and thus other things) in grave, the situation where your Goyf is 0/1 or even 1/2 will never occur. Or only if he dredged Thug for 4 Bridges and your grave is empty...

lolosoon
06-12-2009, 05:26 AM
If there are bridges (and thus other things) in grave, the situation where your Goyf is 0/1 or even 1/2 will never occur. Or only if he dredged Thug for 4 Bridges and your grave is empty...
Indeed.

When they start Dredging, your goyfs can easily be at 6/7, a 3 turns clock with blasts.

Still, their clock is faster, and their chumpblockers are legions.

However, if you need to postpone that, and don't have a goyf in play, Rushing River on 2 attacking Ichorids is neat if you've cut them from P.Imp.

DragoFireheart
06-15-2009, 01:31 PM
I have a question about Chalice of the Void.

Can you stifle the effect that puts counters on it as it comes into play?

Adan
06-15-2009, 01:50 PM
I have a question about Chalice of the Void.

Can you stifle the effect that puts counters on it as it comes into play?

Nope.

But you can stifle the trigger of Chalice if it's not set on 1.

Atog
06-15-2009, 01:51 PM
Somebody got first..

DragoFireheart
06-15-2009, 01:52 PM
Well that is good to know.

So a Spell Snare will hit a chalice set at 1, right?

Atog
06-15-2009, 02:07 PM
Well that is good to know.

So a Spell Snare will hit a chalice set at 1, right?

Yes. If you mean that he's trying to play it @ 1.

DragoFireheart
06-15-2009, 02:22 PM
Yes. If you mean that he's trying to play it @ 1.

Yes, I do mean that. He pays 2 mana so that CotV will counter spells with a CMC of 1'.

Tangle.Wire
06-16-2009, 01:48 PM
So after failing on the Countertop deck either UGWB or UGR i am going to play ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh like everyone else i think the Maindeck is almost set to a Supertype which has 2-3 Slots to change i came up with this:

4 Geese
4 Goofy
1 Viashino heretic

4 Fire/Ice
4 Lightninh Bolt
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Rushing River
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:

3 Pithing Needle
2 Force Spike
4 Pyroblast
2 Krosan Grip
4 Submerge


I almost think its true that playing wipe away in the mainboard istn needed at all, but i also dont liked the clique very much cause most games it was just a 3/1 flyer and i never had advantage of the cip ability.

I think using the trygon for the slot wipe away took earlier days is the right way cause most threats for this deck are permanents like artifacts/enchantments and with 1 bounce like Rushing River which is the best bounce against aggro as well, and 1 Predator we have a good "Solution Split"

All at all i thought of the speed difference of predator to vendillion or Explosives, seal of premodium, bounce etc and agree that it has to stay in play for at least one turn and has to attack unblocked. So thinking about a 3 mana drop which needs one turn i remembered the viashino heretic i played on some decks a long time ago and i feel like loving this Card. It doesnt hit Enchantments and also needs 2 mana to activate but beside this contras he gives some good pros:

- it destroys any kind of artifacts for 2 mana thats not to expensive
- 1/3 cant be used for aggro mode but for chumping other like vendillions do
- the ability damages the opponent directly without attacking and some games i touched crucibles, shackles or even cheap spells wile burning additional damage i really liked it.

Also i had the problem that the most enchantments i saw when i playtested where Deed, moat, humility, counterbalance all of those cards made it really hard to remove it with predator at least moat is no problem but for the others i want to board needles or grips as they are the better solution.

The Heretic is also amasing against Stax or Affinity i only tested against those decks online but almost against affinity i wanted to have 2. But CC3 is to much at all no matter if predator,clique,heretic.

Atog
06-16-2009, 02:56 PM
I almost think its true that playing wipe away in the mainboard istn needed at all, but i also dont liked the clique very much cause most games it was just a 3/1 flyer and i never had advantage of the cip ability.

Also i had the problem that the most enchantments i saw when i playtested where Deed, moat, humility, counterbalance all of those cards made it really hard to remove it with predator at least moat is no problem but for the others i want to board needles or grips as they are the better solution.


Wipe away is a solid answer to all of those. Except if opponent blows deed right away and you don't have stifle available. Those bounces are there just for those problematic cards and other like dreadnaught or tombstalker. 2x Force spikes in side? Tell me about that?

DragoFireheart
06-16-2009, 05:03 PM
I'm still not sold on the Force Spikes.

Sure, I take out:

X 4 Wastelands
X 4 Stifles.


For:

X4 Force Spike
X2 Fetch lands
X2 Counterspells


For when I want to play against my friends random jank that don't have any non-basic lands.

But, Force Spike needs mana and is crap later in the game. I need some reasoning as to why I should take out my 3/1 flash flyier and Rushing River for Force Spike.

Al-ucard
06-18-2009, 03:10 AM
Hi, I have a tournament next saturday and I'm having problems to find 4 Submerge, what card I could put in sideboard instead?

What about some Mind harness?

Thanks

TheBez
06-18-2009, 05:58 AM
I plan on playing this deck at comic con and Anime expo, I haven't completely nailed down my list but I think its going to be pretty standard w/ V. Cliques in my 2 flexible spots. My question is however what is a good sideboard for an unknown meta and or a few sideboards I can change between if i scout the field and see heavy of whatever type of deck?

Tangle.Wire
06-18-2009, 01:37 PM
If you got 2 Slots "free to use" i'd prefer a Split of a Trygon Predator and a Clique, mostly for an unknown Meta the Predator is very usefull.

For the Sideboard i think Pithing Needles are a must as they shut down nearly everything your gonna be afraid of. I also think Pyroblasts/Red blasts are needed for the control matchups the other slots should take some solutions against creatures like pyroclasm and grips against noncreature threats.

at the moment i play this board:

4 Submerge
2 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
2 Red elemental blast
2 Pyroclasm

I also like the idea of pöaying Price of Progress for the Sideboard as it seems to hit so many Decks like Landstill, Loam, Baseruption etc Also it can win games if u stock with mongoose facing big creatures.

Al-ucard
06-19-2009, 03:21 AM
And what cards will you put in if you don't have access to submerge?

lavafrogg
06-19-2009, 03:33 AM
Al-ucard- That depends on what matchups you expect to see at the tourney. The submerge slot is used to fight the decks with few creatures like team america and its brother eva green. Submerge was great because it helped in those matchups and also in the aggroloam matchup where bounching a big guy is always a good idea.

If you cannot get sumberges then you should find something that would help you with these matchups. Disrupt would be one cand to hinder these decks but mind harness would also work. Price of progress is always a strong sideboard choice for tempo thresh but people who are prepared can play around it.

Sets of Krosan grips, tormods crypts, and blasts of both color would be a nice little sideboard, something like:

3 Grip
4 Crypt
3 Hydroblast
3 Pyroblast
2 Trygon Predator/mind harness/price of progress

But it really depends on what you are going to see.

I would bring some of the following: Pyroclasm, grip, predator, crypt, blasts, harness, firespout, disrupt and pithing needle and decide the day of when you get there.

Tangle.Wire
06-19-2009, 04:33 PM
I think Bounce like Echoing Truth additional rivers or even Chain of Vapor or Aether bursts are nice on a play i always liked chain of vapor only with a mongoose in play or just playing it after some wasteland/stifle disruption in the first turns.

johanessen
06-19-2009, 08:23 PM
I was thinking of playing Strategic Planning instead of Ponders in a more thresholed version with Werebears maybe. Anyone tried it?

Ch@os
06-19-2009, 08:31 PM
I was thinking of playing Strategic Planning instead of Ponders in a more thresholed version with Werebears maybe. Anyone tried it?

If your meta is bad for Tempotresh just play UGW Thres'h or something, kk thx bye.

Cenarius
06-20-2009, 09:02 AM
Strategic Plannings seem an awful, awful and uhm awful card for this deck. 2 mana for just 1 card? You have no benefit of getting those cards in graveyard since getting threshold is like baking an egg....
Playing more creatures (werebear) is also probably a bad idea.

If you don't have excess to submerge. Well Mind harness is an idea or playing another deck :D. You will board submerge a lot of times since it helps u a lot. I think that without submerge this deck is mediocre to good. Just my 2 cents.

@ DragoFireheart

Your post is ofcourse rediculous.

You probably haven't noticed the raw power of force spike. It counters creatures like goyf, tops, counterbalance's, force's, brainstorm's, ponder's and more things I can't remember.
I'm even planning to cut a Spell Snare and add an extra Force Spike.

My list would look like this then:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Fire/Ice
3 Force Spike
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

4 Ponder

2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

Tangle.Wire
06-20-2009, 03:35 PM
What you guys think of cutting 1 ponder for 1 divining top in the non countertop ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh? i feel like drawing ponder in the mid-late game doesnt give me enough cardadvantage. :rolleyes:

GrAsH
06-20-2009, 04:07 PM
Hi, I'll have a small tournament and I'd like to test this build:

UGR TempoThresh

Lands
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

Spells
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Daze
1 Rushing River
4 Force of Will
4 Fire // Ice

Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroclasm
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Chalice of the Void

CotV is because my meta has ANTs and TEPS (lol) so I'll test them out.

Blitzbold
06-20-2009, 04:16 PM
You don't need 20 lands. Cutting or exchanging business spells in this deck is already diffcult. For me the deck runs smoothly with 18 lands (6 Fetches). Short of this your deck is pretty standard.

rsaunder
06-20-2009, 04:16 PM
20 land is way too many; cut one for a ponder and another (both fetches) for another rushing river/first wipe away. I think you'll like the results.

EDIT: Beat to the punch. Sorry.

GrAsH
06-21-2009, 02:34 PM
20 land is way too many; cut one for a ponder and another (both fetches) for another rushing river/first wipe away. I think you'll like the results.

EDIT: Beat to the punch. Sorry.

Ok, thanks, I'll cut two fetches (1 Delta, 1 Strand) for a Ponder and a second Rushing River. :wink:

Jonika
06-22-2009, 03:04 PM
What you guys think of cutting 1 ponder for 1 divining top in the non countertop ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh? i feel like drawing ponder in the mid-late game doesnt give me enough cardadvantage. :rolleyes:

You are right that Ponder does not provide CA lategame. It does not provide CA early or mid game either. The same is true with Sensei's Divining top.

Elfrago
06-22-2009, 03:26 PM
Ponder does not generate card advantage at all: you spend one card to get one card. But it improves card quality.

DragoFireheart
06-22-2009, 05:57 PM
Ponder does not generate card advantage at all: you spend one card to get one card. But it improves card quality.

And Lightning Bolt doesn't heal you three damage, it deals three damage.

/sarcasm.

If you really wanted card advantage in TT, best card I can think of is... Predict? Accumulated Knowledge? Teferi's Response to fight Wastelands? Compulsive Research?


The problem with most of the card-advantage cards is that they... are slow/janky/tricky to use.

GrAsH
06-24-2009, 03:49 PM
I changed my decklist into this, a pretty classical build:

UGR TempoThresh

Lands
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Daze
1 Rushing River
1 Wipe Away
4 Force of Will
4 Fire // Ice

Sideboard:
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast

(Maybe a split 3/3 between BEB and REB?)

3 Pyroclasm -> Goyfsligh, Goblins, Merfolk, another Mongooses.
3 Krosan Grip -> CTop Engine, Deed, Explosives, etc.
3 Tormod's Crypt -> Ichorid

That is my meta, which Goblins being dominant.

DragoFireheart
06-24-2009, 03:55 PM
I tried TT at the 5k this past weekend. Didn't do to well: had 3 games in which I mulled to 4 or 5 cards, one game in which I didn't see any lands other than a Wasteland and a Volcanic Island for 7 turns.

However, when the deck was not trying to luck-screw me, it worked wonderfully! :wink:

The deck has almost answers for every other deck out in the Legacy format. Main deck answers for combos, range, ability to fight control and it's manlands. I enjoyed the counter-burn-land disruption- Gofy beatdown of the deck.

DragoFireheart
06-24-2009, 03:57 PM
I changed my decklist into this, a pretty classical build:


Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast -> duh
2 Red Elemental Blast -> duh
3 Pyroclasm -> Goyfsligh, Goblins, Merfolk, another Mongooses.
3 Krosan Grip -> CTop Engine, Deed, Explosives, etc.
3 Tormod's Crypt -> Ichorid
2 Chalice of the Void -> ANT, TEPS

That is my meta, which Goblins being dominant.

See, you really don't need Chalice. We have main deck answers for Storm-Combo decks and having Chalice seems unneeded.

GrAsH
06-24-2009, 04:50 PM
See, you really don't need Chalice. We have main deck answers for Storm-Combo decks and having Chalice seems unneeded.

Against burn, CotV set at 1 makes wonders against three, four burn decks in a total of more or less 20 decks in my meta:

Quoting this from other thread (Merfolk):



Chalice with 1 charge counter vs. Burn saved my butt. When I played it with 1 charge counter in 3rd round, 2 or 3 turns later she (yes, she, lol) conceded. I saw her hand and just saw a monstruous hand: 2 Chain Lightnings, 2 Lightning Bolts, 1 Figure of Destiny and 1 Fireblast. And she had only 1 Mountain (tapped) and 1 Mogg Fantastic (lol) in play.


Remember we don't have Hydroblast/BEB, we have Pyroblast/REB. It all depends on our own metas. And talking about that, I think I'm going change Chalice for Hydro/BEB. Goblins and burn are dominant, so it's all about testing.

goobafish
06-24-2009, 04:53 PM
If you cast a chalice at 1 while playing this deck, you are doing something very very wrong.

GrAsH
06-24-2009, 04:56 PM
If you cast a chalice at 1 while playing this deck, you are doing something very very wrong.

You're right, so I'm going to change Chalice for Hydroblasts/BEB.

MULocke
06-24-2009, 05:51 PM
I actually like chalice at zero against combo, as their usual to win is by chanting you and winning. Another cute option is Venarian Glimmer. If they try to get you turn 1 or 2, you can respond to the disruption by hitting a crucial mox or led or something. And, if they try to bank chants and beat you in the later turns, it removes one, or another key spell. Now, if only there was room for cards only good against combo...

DragoFireheart
06-24-2009, 05:57 PM
If Red decks that are much of an issue, run Chills along with Hydroblast and Blue Elemental Blast.

That should scare away all those silly burn/goblin decks.

Al-ucard
06-24-2009, 06:44 PM
I tried TT at the 5k this past weekend. Didn't do to well: had 3 games in which I mulled to 4 or 5 cards, one game in which I didn't see any lands other than a Wasteland and a Volcanic Island for 7 turns.

However, when the deck was not trying to luck-screw me, it worked wonderfully! :wink:

The deck has almost answers for every other deck out in the Legacy format. Main deck answers for combos, range, ability to fight control and it's manlands. I enjoyed the counter-burn-land disruption- Gofy beatdown of the deck.

I went last weekend to a 60 people tournament and this is exactly what occurs. I losed 3 rounds to be mana screwed or mana flooded, the others I win without problems.

keys
06-24-2009, 07:59 PM
I went last weekend to a 60 people tournament and this is exactly what occurs. I losed 3 rounds to be mana screwed or mana flooded, the others I win without problems.

I think when you have only 14 colored mana producing/fetching lands, no-land-hands are fairly common. Team America has the same problem. It's quite annoying.

DragoFireheart
06-25-2009, 12:45 AM
I think when you have only 14 colored mana producing/fetching lands, no-land-hands are fairly common. Team America has the same problem. It's quite annoying.

But to get games where I get mana flooded?

I swear, the deck hates me or something.

Cenarius
06-25-2009, 06:22 AM
"I think when you have only 14 colored mana producing/fetching lands, no-land-hands are fairly common. Team America has the same problem. It's quite annoying."

I agree to this. Ofcourse it's common that you can get no-land-hands. It happens sometimes. Probably the worst thing to do every round is pile-shuffling to get a 1-land-hand or more. If you have a decent distribution of land throughtout your deck, you don't need to pileshuffle. This is because you already have what u want. It maybe looks weird what I say but. It works for me.

By the way: I thought that Team America plays about 20 lands, am I right? That makes some difference atleast. I think u meant that they get colloured screwed. Like u want double black for Sinkhole but also need green for goyf ánd also need blue for cantrip's/stifle's etc. But that's another discussion.

So after realizing that the deck cán manascrew. Ponder and Tarmogoyf does seem a bit weaker, doesn't it? Both are played at sorcery speed, you probably won't have any mana to respond with Spell Snare, Stifle etc.
However it's just that u need Tarmogoyf to beat Tarmogoyfs and u need Ponder's to not even get mana-screwed more. Such a shame :D.

Al-ucard: It is maybe a weird question. Did you sometimes had the feeling: if I had a Force Spike, I would have won? Or did you not pay any attention to it?
GrAsH: Chalice of the Void in sideboard. Damn that makes me laugh. Arround 60% of this deck costs 1, you know that right? Or are u new to Tempo Threshold? So you wanna play a card that shuts down yourself? How can that be any good?

You guys really should test my new list. Especially when u realize that having 3/4 land is probably late game and that Rushing River and Clique have no game-winning effect at that stage.
It plays 8 fetch (4 Wooded Foothills), 3 Spell Snare and 3 Force Spike (2 for the open slots, 1 for -1 Spell Snare)

GrAsH
06-25-2009, 08:47 AM
GrAsH: Chalice of the Void in sideboard. Damn that makes me laugh. Arround 60% of this deck costs 1, you know that right? Or are u new to Tempo Threshold? So you wanna play a card that shuts down yourself? How can that be any good?

Yes, I'm kinda new to TT, I only played with Suicidal Black, CounterTop, Goyf Sligh and Vial Merfolk in Legacy tournaments, so I'm trying to improve my skills in Legacy. I didn't realize at time that Chalice cuts half of the deck, but in Merfolk it does wonders.

Btw, I changed Chalices for Blue Elemental Blasts. Goblins? Come y'all! :tongue:

Other thing I wanted to discuss is if I should cut a Rushing River for a singleton Trygon Predator, or even cut a River and a Ponder for 2 Predators. I think it's a good option, having Dreadnoughts, Vials and CTops in my meta.

Cenarius
06-25-2009, 09:05 AM
Goblins isn't really a matchup that u have to consider in your sideboard. Blue elemental blast are pretty awful against other matchup's. Dragon Stompy isn't played much and Burn well the same? Instead put pyroclasms in your sideboard. It helps against Elves, Merfolk ánd Goblins.
It's funny that u want to play trygon predator as an answer to Phyrexian Dreadnought, Sensei's Divining top and Aether Vial. Those are probably the worst cards u'll see on the other side of the table. However, Trygon Predator is way to slow for a deck like Tempo Threshold since Trygon Predator costs 1GU at sorcery speed.
Everyone has the same cards floating arround in their metagame. Although Dreadstill is probably not that popular in my metagame, atleast one of our teammates plays it. Atleast Sensei´s Divining top and Aether Vial are pretty common here. So we (as a Team) tried to come up with an answer to those cards and actively helping the strategy I'm already playing.
Force Spike is the right card since it can:
Counter Creatures
Counter Artifacts
Counter Enchantments
Counter Cantrips
Counter Planeswalkers
and
Counter Counters
Since Wasteland and Stifle hurts their land ratio. Force Spike is pretty insane at early and midgame. This goes the same with Daze, like duh? Having 7 Daze effects helps u against certain matchup's. When people try to play arround it, it will help you to seal the deal. Hopefully.

sauce
06-25-2009, 10:23 AM
There is no need for 3 force spikes, just run 4 disrupts like gooba in the board when you're on the draw swap them dazes out for those.

GrAsH
06-25-2009, 01:04 PM
Goblins isn't really a matchup that u have to consider in your sideboard. Blue elemental blast are pretty awful against other matchup's. Dragon Stompy isn't played much and Burn well the same? Instead put pyroclasms in your sideboard. It helps against Elves, Merfolk ánd Goblins.

My meta is more or less the following:

At least 4 Goblins;
2 or 3 Burn (sometimes they go with Dragon Stompy);
1 CounterTop;
2 ANT (or TEPS, they are our Johnnies lol);
1 Rock;
2 Vial Merfolk (1 classical build, other with Dreadnought);
1 Dreadstill;
1 Enchantress;
1 Counterslivers (The guy who runs it went a day to a tournament with DonateIllusions and won it);
1 Ichorid (The guy who runs it sometimes go with Solidarity or Suicidal Black);
1 Imperial Servant.

So my meta is small, but very diverse (yes, sometimes we change decks so we are sometimes changing the meta, but the core is as I said in this post). In every tournament I have to match against at least 1 Goblins, so I'll give them an opportunity.

Al-ucard
06-25-2009, 01:07 PM
I don't think force spike or disrupt is so needed MD, maybe are usefull side cards against eva green or rock decks, but not for main deck.

About the mana screw/flooded problem, it's only a luck problem, last saturday in 7 rounds I mulliganed to 5 cards in the first match in 2 of them. I Losed the first match and in the second one I get flooded XD.

Another match I losed because I don't reserve a daze to cast FoW, I expect draw a blue card and I don't, so oponent played natural order into progenitus and winned the match XD.

The other matches I win without problems, its a very powerful deck. Sometimes an humiliating one:

Opponent its at 4 damage and plays ilusions of grandeur, in response I play bolt, oponent fetches and plays counterspell (3 damage). I played another bolt, oponent fows it, I played stifle to ilusions XD

Cenarius
06-25-2009, 01:28 PM
"There is no need for 3 force spikes, just run 4 disrupts like gooba in the board when you're on the draw swap them dazes out for those."

Uhm, how can u even be sure about a card without testing it?

"don't think force spike or disrupt is so needed MD,"

Give Arguments?

I can continue giving arguments about the fact that Force Spike is the ideal card for the open slots, but u guys simply seem stubborn about changes, do you? You really should test the card before replying with the same sentence: I think or believe or There is no need .
Test it against:
Dreadstill/Landstill
Zoo/Goblins
Cb/top
ANT

You'll see that in all 4 different kind of matchup's the card shines.

Al-ucard
06-25-2009, 01:51 PM
Simply, In the firsth match I prefer to return 1 or 2 permanents I couldn't counter while I reach ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (RR), or have the 9th creature (vendilion).

In second match sure are better disrupt or force spike against some decks, but I will not quit this 2 cards, I will quit others.

kabal
06-25-2009, 01:58 PM
I can continue giving arguments about the fact that Force Spike is the ideal card for the open slots ...

I can't speak for others, the deck does not need anymore situational counters MB. It has a playset of 2 of the best ones based on the current state of the format. What it does need is a way to deal with permanents that we for whatever the reason were not able to counter. Both Rushing River and Wipe Away solve that issue.

Granted, in your testing or playing in tournaments there may have been times that Force Spike really shined, but I would also imagine there were times where you were wishing it was a bounce spell.

I think David (goobafish) says best --> "They are amazingly useful to end ground standoffs, or to remove pesky artifacts, enchantments and creatures that are out of burn range."

Cenarius
06-25-2009, 02:44 PM
It continues...

Saying things without testing.

Don't you want to test new cards?
Vendillion Clique is pretty new. So why don't you want to test Force Spike?

Because (I Quote) it seems unnecessary?
Because (I Quote) you have to spend a mana on it?
Because (I Quote) you already have too much 1cc Counters?
Because (I Quote again) it is bad in lategame (kuch Daze)?
Because (I Quote yet again) it cannot bounce?

I mean searching for your bounce spell when a Moat or Humility is on the other side of the table is like looking for a needle in a haystack. Looking for an answer when a Cb/top is on the otherside of the table is like dreaming. Hoping that they won't counter your cantrips? Don't you think your opponent has enough time to find 7 counters already?
How can you guys be sure a card such as Force Spike is not the actual card that we (TT players) have been looking for as an answer to anything?

Hopefully u'll test it. I've got nothing more to say

DragoFireheart
06-25-2009, 02:55 PM
Because (I Quote again) it is bad in lategame (kuch Daze)?
Because (I Quote yet again) it cannot bounce?



Yes?

We don't need anymore bad late-game counters. We DO need some bounce late game when something does manage to slip past our counters.

Tacosnape
06-25-2009, 03:03 PM
This is stupid logic. I could suggest Wild Research in this deck, and people would dismiss it without testing it. Why, you ask? Because some of us have played this game into the ground and designed so many decks that we can often envision, accurately no less, how a card is going to work in a deck to some degree without testing it. "Don't knock it until you've tested it" is pointless.

Your arguments are full of logical holes. Running two copies of something in a deck with eight cantrips isn't exactly a needle in a haystack. Furthermore, that Force Spike of yours will show up as equally rarely if you're arguing that Force Spike should be in place of the bounce slots.

What if your opponent leads with Chalice for 1? What good's your Force Spike going to do you then? Rushing River's the guy you want here. What if your opponent drops a Counterbalance when you're tapped out? Are you going to keep mana open at all times and not drop your threats? You don't have the late game for that. Here you want Wipe Away.

The problem with Force Spike is that for it to be useful, you have to leave mana untapped. This isn't generally something you want to be doing in a tempo-based deck. It's why Force and Daze are so ungodly good. If you've got Rushing River or Wipe Away, you have a backup plan. You don't have to live in constant fear of tapping out.

For example, I can go ahead and drop my Tarmogoyf turn two with River-or-Wipe/Snare in hand, generally without fear. If they drop a Goyf, a Survival, a Confidant, a Counterbalance, or whatever? I'll bounce it on their next end step and have the Snare ready. If instead I have Spike/Snare, I have to wait on my Tarmogoyf, hope to trap them with the Spike or the Snare, then drop the Goyf later. Personally I'd rather have the option of taking whichever approach feels more right for the matchup than being pigeonholed into the trap approach.

Bahamuth
06-25-2009, 03:33 PM
This is stupid logic. I could suggest Wild Research in this deck, and people would dismiss it without testing it. Why, you ask? Because some of us have played this game into the ground and designed so many decks that we can often envision, accurately no less, how a card is going to work in a deck to some degree without testing it. "Don't knock it until you've tested it" is pointless.

This is not true in this case, since, at least to me, it isn't obvious at all that Force Spike would be a bad card in this deck. I don't belive anyone in this threat has ever tested Force Spike in a deck that focuses on mana denial and Tempo gain. The card fits perfectly in this deck.


Your arguments are full of logical holes. Running two copies of something in a deck with eight cantrips isn't exactly a needle in a haystack. Furthermore, that Force Spike of yours will show up as equally rarely if you're arguing that Force Spike should be in place of the bounce slots.

Yes sir, it is a needle in a haystack. You've generally depleted alot of resources already once you encounter a permanent that needs to be bounced. From experience I can tell you I've never even once have encountered a situation in which the bounce would've won me the game and I actually was able to find it.

The second part is also wrong logic, since Force Spike fits a completely different role than bounce in this deck. You'll always hate to see bounce in the opening hand or in the first 3 turns. Force Spike is strong in both early and midgame, and it can be placed under the same category as Spell Snare.


What if your opponent leads with Chalice for 1? What good's your Force Spike going to do you then? Rushing River's the guy you want here. What if your opponent drops a Counterbalance when you're tapped out? Are you going to keep mana open at all times and not drop your threats? You don't have the late game for that. Here you want Wipe Away.

The problem with Force Spike is that for it to be useful, you have to leave mana untapped. This isn't generally something you want to be doing in a tempo-based deck. It's why Force and Daze are so ungodly good. If you've got Rushing River or Wipe Away, you have a backup plan. You don't have to live in constant fear of tapping out.


Chalice on 1 on the play is going to fuck you over no matter what. I find it neglectible that I can use my bounce, which I just happen to find in my hand all of a sudden together with 3 land without a single cantrip at all. River is not what I want here, I want FoW. I know you're gonna tell me that that isn't the answer as you can't always have FoW, but River isn't the answer either.

If your opponent drops CB and you don't have mana open, you're playing the deck wrong and should lose to the card. You always keep mana open with this deck, always. There's no reason at all a tempo oriented deck wouldn't. Why do you think this deck is packed with reactive cards anyway? It's because reactive cards generally do more than proactive cards for a smaller cost. What gives us the tempo edge is that we can both play a Ponder/Goose/Brainstorm/Goyf AND counter the opposing spell. You generate tempo here since you're able to play more cards than the opponent.

Having to leave mana open is a really bad argument. We run both Stifle and Spell Snare as a 4-off. I'm not hearing anyone complain how these cards require open mana. I'm not convinced the effect of Force Spike is weaker than Spell Snare's at all.



For example, I can go ahead and drop my Tarmogoyf turn two with River-or-Wipe/Snare in hand, generally without fear. If they drop a Goyf, a Survival, a Confidant, a Counterbalance, or whatever? I'll bounce it on their next end step and have the Snare ready. If instead I have Spike/Snare, I have to wait on my Tarmogoyf, hope to trap them with the Spike or the Snare, then drop the Goyf later. Personally I'd rather have the option of taking whichever approach feels more right for the matchup than being pigeonholed into the trap approach.

Or instead, which would've been by far a more superior play, you actually could have left mana open, countered the Force Spike, played the Goyf next turn, while maybe even leaving mana open again, or being able to Waste a land. I don't see any reason at all to play a Goyf against a blind deck on turn 2, while you can do so many powerful things on their turn instead. There are very few decks that are able to fight through our counters and force us to drop a Goyf early, and then proceeding to play cards while we're outtapped. In other words, having the option is useless, since the above aproach is superior.

Tacosnape
06-25-2009, 04:00 PM
Yes sir, it is a needle in a haystack. You've generally depleted alot of resources already once you encounter a permanent that needs to be bounced. From experience I can tell you I've never even once have encountered a situation in which the bounce would've won me the game and I actually was able to find it.

Your logic is wrong. You aren't counting the situations where the bounce was already in your hand. The point here is that Cards 59 and 60, regardless of if they're Force Spike, Rushing River, or whatever, are going to appear in your hand equally often at equally often times.

Furthermore, your claim's a bit outrageous, as I've been playing this deck seriously for less than a month and have hit multiple situations where, whether starting in my hand or drawn, Bounce has won me the game. Rushing River's 2-for-1 has been fantastic for me.


Chalice on 1 on the play is going to fuck you over no matter what. I find it neglectible that I can use my bounce, which I just happen to find in my hand all of a sudden together with 3 land without a single cantrip at all. River is not what I want here, I want FoW. I know you're gonna tell me that that isn't the answer as you can't always have FoW, but River isn't the answer either.

Why not? You run just shy of one land per three cards in your hand. If your opponent drops Chalice for 1 on the play, you're on the draw and are going to see ten cards. If one of these is Rushing River and none of the opening seven were Force of Will, chances are slightly over 50% that you're going to curve out into a turn three River. This isn't a great best case scenario for not having the Force, but occasionally Chalice decks will stumble around for a couple turns after the Chalice, giving you a shot at least. Then if you've got a Snare or anything else useful, you can counter the Chalice when it comes back.


If your opponent drops CB and you don't have mana open, you're playing the deck wrong and should lose to the card. You always keep mana open with this deck, always. There's no reason at all a tempo oriented deck wouldn't. Why do you think this deck is packed with reactive cards anyway? It's because reactive cards generally do more than proactive cards for a smaller cost. What gives us the tempo edge is that we can both play a Ponder/Goose/Brainstorm/Goyf AND counter the opposing spell. You generate tempo here since you're able to play more cards than the opponent.

Having to leave mana open is a really bad argument. We run both Stifle and Spell Snare as a 4-off. I'm not hearing anyone complain how these cards require open mana. I'm not convinced the effect of Force Spike is weaker than Spell Snare's at all.

It's still philosphically a more aggressive strategy to have the option to tap out in certain cases. You are dead wrong in your assessment that you always leave mana open in this deck. More often than not? No argument. Always? Dead wrong. I could list thousands of common scenarios where tapping out would be the correct play. But if I'm packing double Dazes or not sitting on any Snares/Stifles, or if I'm packing 8-10 damage worth of burn in hand, I'm not going to hesitate to play aggressively if the situation is correct.
By playing Force Spike, you're further committing yourself to taking the approach you detailed.

goobafish
06-25-2009, 04:13 PM
I don't belive anyone in this threat has ever tested Force Spike in a deck that focuses on mana denial and Tempo gain.

I have. Extensively.

The problems with it and the advantages of bounce are well summarized in Tacosnape's posts.

Also, this:

From experience I can tell you I've never even once have encountered a situation in which the bounce would've won me the game and I actually was able to find it.

If they didn't do anything, then I wouldn't be running them.

Bahamuth
06-25-2009, 04:35 PM
Your logic is wrong. You aren't counting the situations where the bounce was already in your hand. The point here is that Cards 59 and 60, regardless of if they're Force Spike, Rushing River, or whatever, are going to appear in your hand equally often at equally often times.

I see that, but I don't see how it's relevant in this situation. I'll claim that Force Spike is generally more usefull than Rushing River. I'm not counting the bounce when it's already in my hand, you're right. It's just that I really never want to find a bounce in my opening grip to begin with. The card is almost always dead, be it because I don't have 3 mana, or because there's no reason to bounce anything.


Furthermore, your claim's a bit outrageous, as I've been playing this deck seriously for less than a month and have hit multiple situations where, whether starting in my hand or drawn, Bounce has won me the game. Rushing River's 2-for-1 has been fantastic for me.

I wish I could share the same opinion. All I know is that I always hate having bounce in my opener and that it's generally a really bad topdeck, coming at random times.




Why not? You run just shy of one land per three cards in your hand. If your opponent drops Chalice for 1 on the play, you're on the draw and are going to see ten cards. If one of these is Rushing River and none of the opening seven were Force of Will, chances are slightly over 50% that you're going to curve out into a turn three River. This isn't a great best case scenario for not having the Force, but occasionally Chalice decks will stumble around for a couple turns after the Chalice, giving you a shot at least. Then if you've got a Snare or anything else useful, you can counter the Chalice when it comes back.

This is basically a hopeless situation. You do not have any play at all in the first three turns, and you'll be still dependant on finding a counter after the Chalice lands again. By that time, DS will almost have killed you, or at least dropped a Moon to make any plans completely impossible, or Stax will lock you out completely by just Wasting one land. I'm not too interested in discussion unlikely stuff like Chalice at 1 on turn 1. Force Spike will be way superior on the play, River will be remotely usefull on the draw, given you meet like 10 requirements.



It's still philosphically a more aggressive strategy to have the option to tap out in certain cases. You are dead wrong in your assessment that you always leave mana open in this deck. More often than not? No argument. Always? Dead wrong. I could list thousands of common scenarios where tapping out would be the correct play. But if I'm packing double Dazes or not sitting on any Snares/Stifles, or if I'm packing 8-10 damage worth of burn in hand, I'm not going to hesitate to play aggressively if the situation is correct.

I don't understand what aggressiveness has to do with this discussion. We're playing Tempo, not aggro.

Yes, you won't always leave mana open. You won't if you either have no shot at countering anyway, or if you're forced to drop a creature thanks to stuff like Lackey. Force Spike will almost always give you a shot, and actually a very reasonable shot at countering, which is certainly worth keeping mana open. Also, this deck will generally have 2-3 land in play. We can still play the game and keep mana open anyway. Tapping out is almost always wrong, barring the few cases I mentioned above. I still wouldn't tap out and play aggressive even if I have 10 dmg of burn in my hand, if I can wait a turn and counter my opponents CB or whatever.



By playing Force Spike, you're further committing yourself to taking the approach you detailed.

Which is still not an argument for not playing Spike, as this is the best appreach this deck can take.


I have. Extensively.

The problems with it and the advantages of bounce are well summarized in Tacosnape's posts.


I still haven't seen any arguments so far other than:
1) You have to keep mana open, which I just don't agree with, seeing that we run both Spell Snare and Stifle, which give exactly the same situation.

2) Bounce does stuff Force Spike doesn't, which is just unlogical, since Force Spike does stuff Bounce doesn't.

DragoFireheart
06-25-2009, 04:52 PM
2) Bounce does stuff Force Spike doesn't, which is just unlogical, since Force Spike does stuff Bounce doesn't.


...which is just unlogical...



...which is just unlogical...



...which is just unlogical...


Umm... I think you meant illogical.

Anyways, Force Spike is just Daze 5-8. Does this deck want more Dazes?

Bahamuth
06-25-2009, 04:59 PM
Really? Unlogical isn't a word? Lol, that makes me seems stupid. Now that I think of it, I just translated it straight from Dutch.

Force Spike is really not more Daze, it's more like a Spell Snare with different conditions.

DragoFireheart
06-25-2009, 05:00 PM
Force Spike is really not more Daze, it's more like a Spell Snare with different conditions.

Spell Snare will still hit CMC of 2 if the opponent has 1 land or 5 lands.

Force Spike will not hit spells if the opponent has lands open.


The spells are quite different and comparing them is illogical.

Bahamuth
06-25-2009, 05:07 PM
Spell Snare will still hit CMC of 2 if the opponent has 1 land or 5 lands.

Force Spike will not hit spells if the opponent has lands open.


The spells are quite different and comparing them is illogical.

Sigh...

As I just said, the cards function the same, being a 1CC counter for which you're keeping mana open. The conditions for both cards are different. One will counter spell the other doesn't and the other way around.

DragoFireheart
06-25-2009, 05:17 PM
Sigh...

As I just said, the cards function the same, being a 1CC counter for which you're keeping mana open. The conditions for both cards are different. One will counter spell the other doesn't and the other way around.

Except that Spell Snare can still be useful later in the game, while Force Spike will still be as underwhelming as Daze in the late game.

Furthermore, how will you deal with an enchantment like Humility that makes it through your counters?

Shriekmaw
06-25-2009, 05:26 PM
I have tried a lot of different cards in those 2 slots and always came back to the bounce spells as a 1/1 spilt. I did replace the fire/ice slot for counterspells which worked out very well, but its a metagame call. In an unkown metagame, fire/ice seems to be the better call.

In the 2 open slots in the deck I have tried the following. I've added chain lightnings for more burn, trygon predator, krosan grips, engineered explosives, but always found the bounce spells were far more useful most of the time.

Maybe a lot of players don't realize how many different situations that the bounce spells are actually better than you give them credit for. I'm sure Kaplan can go over how many times his bounce spells won him or gave him a huge tempo advantage in the game.

I'm always looking for a suggestion on what the 2 cards should be for that slot, but as of right now it seems the bounce spells are the best.

Blitzbold
06-25-2009, 05:41 PM
... Bounce has won me the game. Rushing River's 2-for-1 has been fantastic for me.


This.


I have tried a lot of different cards in those 2 slots and always came back to the bounce spells as a 1/1 spilt ... In an unkown metagame, fire/ice seems to be the better call.

In the 2 open slots in the deck I have tried the following. I've added chain lightnings for more burn, trygon predator, krosan grips, engineered explosives, but always found the bounce spells were far more useful most of the time.

Maybe a lot of players don't realize how many different situations that the bounce spells are actually better than you give them credit for. I'm sure Kaplan can go over how many times his bounce spells won him or gave him a huge tempo advantage in the game.

I'm always looking for a suggestion on what the 2 cards should be for that slot, but as of right now it seems the bounce spells are the best.

And this.

I also tested a lot of different configurations for the slots not set in stone. Tacosnape basically said what I am thinking about the topic, so there isn't much to add for me.

However, it's like it is with every other deck: those 60 cards which seem to work for most people won't necessary do so for others. If those Force Spikes get them where they wanted to be - so what?

I for myself finally also switched back to the 1/1 split of the bounce spell after playing several tournaments with either Clique or Predator instead of the Wipe Away. It works for me, so I am fine.

sauce
06-25-2009, 06:38 PM
bounce is amazing in tempo decks as it removes their last blocker for your goyf/goose, punks tombstalker which this deck is ill equipped to handle besides trading a goyf + bolt/fire or just growing a goyf to be 5/6 or bigger.

rushing river is just so crazy vs many decks cuz it can almost 2x timewalk them at time.. imagine if they got a few an equipment attached to some dude makign it bigger than goyf, they attack, you bounce the equipment and block.

there have been games vs staxx where i got my goyf oblivion ringed, and end of their turn i bounced the oblivion ring and their 2/6 wall and swung in for the win.

if you don't see how bounce is amazing, you're doing it wrong.

Adan
06-26-2009, 03:06 AM
I can see Force Spike having it's right to exist in Tempo Thresh since it can support the deckconcept quite well.

Tempothresh works fine/is persistent till nowadays because it has got a fuckload of spells that trade 1to1 for opponens threats, gaining a huge tempo-advantage, in consequence making it very consistent and less vulnerable.
Well, except for my 4-2 bad beats at Hassloch where both losses were to Painter-Kills (which is actually impossible, but I didn't see a single Lightning Bolt or Spell Snare against them. Fuck Painter for having Toughness 3).
Force Spike is another excellent 1st Turn play beside Stifle and Daze if the opponent doesn't fetch. I can see Force Spike being as good as Spell Snare in the early game as it can counter stuff without making you fall back by neutering a landdrop you made a turn before (because this gives the opponent the opportunity to resolve a threat to which you might lose then as the first few turns are sometimes the most critical phases).

This fact however makes it very difficult to change something within the constellation of the deck. It gives you more counters, but I have found myself boarding out Dazes against some matchups frequently. And against these matchups (or good players in general), Force Spike is disqualified as a valid cardchoice as they will try to circumvent it by a different style of playing which doesn't even give you the speedadvantage that you want.

And well, I have sealed more games with Bouncespells than Force Spike. The best example that comes to my mind is the match against Landstill where he let me resolve 3 creatures due to Humility. When I attacked him, I played Wipe Away on his Humility and 12 Damage for GG.
The problem I see in the inclusion of Force Spike is that it turns some situations into "Oh, a threat resolved, now I lose". This includes 12/12 Vores, Crushers that you miss to Bolt, Humility, sometimes Goyfs, Counterbalance any any fat creature that may be bigger than your creatures. Some matchups are decided by Nimble Mongoose as they can't get rid of them except via bigger creatures.

However, I feel that I also have to get rid of my conservative way of thinking and will try Force Spike as soon as I find the opportunity or interest to play TempoThresh again.

Bahamuth
06-26-2009, 03:23 AM
As I said before, I realise how bounce is able to get rid of problematic stuff like Humility or whatever. This by itself isn't a good reason, at least for me, to include it in the deck. I decide to cut te card as I find it to be dead in my hand it numerous occasions. It's a little harder to notice than those games you won on Bounce, but having a dead card in your hand can easily lose you the game.

I didn't know it was a good idea to board out Daze, actually. I almost never do that, except for those occasions where you board out 1 of many cards. In this case, Spike would have to be the first card to move out. In what matchups do you board Daze out?

Adan
06-26-2009, 03:37 AM
In this case, Spike would have to be the first card to move out. In what matchups do you board Daze out?

Aggroloam and Landstill predominantly. Aggroloam can accelerate though Moxen and then via Loam, they will never miss a landdrop again which makes Daze terrible. I usually side them out for BEBs as they can hit Wish, Dreams, Assault and Crushers.

Landstill players will slowroll in any case and if they do it properly, they will be able to circumvent Dazes without neglecting their gameplan (play against DiF and you will know what I mean, he humiliated me 2 years ago at Hassloch. But on a sidenote, I was pretty much a noob to TT at that time and also overextended into WoG and such mistakes =/ ). But there was no chance of hitting ANYTHING with even multiple Dazes.

I have to hurry to school now, maybe I'll post later if something should come to my mind during my boring lessons...

GGoober
06-26-2009, 04:27 AM
What are the bad matches for Tempo Thresh? I'm assuming like Dragon Stompy, it's really good at killing good decks but unlike Stompy, it's well-rounded and fast and reliable with Cantrips.

I'm going to assume that decks with more basics little fetches and a low mana curve compare out to Tempo Thresh. How does Zoo fit in as an example of a good/bad matchup? Even though they run fetches, they drop meaty 1-drops which may out tempo the deck. I'm really curious. Post-board I think Tempo Thresh does well with Submerge/BEB/pyroclasm. Anyway, is firespout better than Pyroclasm for TEmpo Thresh SB? Merfolks and Zoo are to be considered for their possible 3 toughness.

Tangle.Wire
06-26-2009, 04:44 AM
I dont know how important the difference between 2/3 for Pyroclasm/Firespout is at all but i never played pyroclasm straight on turn 2 cause i have bolts and fire/ice as well. So firespout isnt that bad for 3 mana, i agree that 3 dmg are some times important, maybe for a painter ;D but i really liked em on the elves/merfolk matchups where lots of creatures are already set on x/2 and pyroclasm fails if the get champs like lord of atlantis,elvish champion etc on the table.

Otherwhise i think making pyroclasm more playable for 2 mana its good enough at all as you also can bolt or fire the champion creatures. :rolleyes:

What do you guys think about an troll ascetic 1x on the mainboard, actually i always had enough artifact/enchantment solutions with grips and stifle+bounce so i am not sure to keep the trygon predator/clique on my meta theres a lot of g/w/b control or countertop/landstill so on some tests with other decks the Troll was so amasing as it is a 5th mongoose with regenerate what also can beat up aggro decks as well. But i am not sure about the cc of 1GG like every other deck i run 4 tropicals no basics and some fetches but so getting gg looks pretty hard to me.


-> How you guys think about a mana base with some basiclands and back to basics in the mainboard?

Atog
06-26-2009, 05:19 AM
-> How you guys think about a mana base with some basiclands and back to basics in the mainboard?

There were a discussion about that and some testing before, and they all say same: Not gonna work. That can hear strange but go ahead and test. I tested sometime 1x Island and 1x Forest and that make manabase suck big time. There were hands where i had forest and wasteland, island and wasteland etc. We do not want to play anymore lands what doesn't make u-x than wastelands. They make screw enought when be only land in first seven cards.. So test that setup.

ps. B2B sees in merfolk side what plays 12-13 basics..

emidln
06-26-2009, 01:27 PM
It's often difficult to get to 3 mana against Goblins or Merfolk, matchups where you'd normally want to bring in Firespout.

Cenarius
06-26-2009, 01:47 PM
Thanks Adan. Finally someone that is (slightly) positive about the change. It's good to be openminded.

But why do you want to sideboard your daze's out against Landstill. Should you not remove other cards instead? Maybe you're right but it just seems that Daze is such a powerfull card against such a deck. They will run into a Daze if they mess it up or something. Attacking their manabase and having an early clock makes them not wanna wait. Or what do you think?
Agroloam is probably a good example of removing your daze's. More removal is probably better than hoping that they'll run in a daze.

Adan, how does your sideboard look like? How can u possibly find room for Blue Elemental Blast's? Instead of Disrupt's?

@ Sauce
" bounce is amazing in tempo decks " How can that be true?

I know that sometimes Rushing River is pretty tight but you're only saying the absolute good things about the card. I know for sure that Rushing River EOT bounce: Oblivion ring is nice but would you not have won with Force Spike's instead?
I know that bouncing Humility's, Moat's and other things seem pretty crazy and good but in fact, just like Rob (Bahamuth) just said, having a dead card in your hand may loose you the game.

"if you don't see how bounce is amazing, you're doing it wrong." This is an insult I'll gladly take. Hopefully, when everyone or atleast someone makes a top8 result with Force Spike that is not Bahamuth or me I'll quote u again. Deal?

@ crz87

I tested numerous games against Merfolk and Zoo. Zoo is a pretty good matchup pre-board already if their list doesn't play Vial and some Basics (2) (the list we are testing right now). You can easily manascrew them and bolt will kill every creature they have, except Goyf ofcourse (maybe your lucky).
Submerge in sideboard will make games even easier.
Merfolk is a kind of deck where u need a particular strong hand with a lot of burn + Goyf's. Maybe a spell snare for the LoA/Standstill. Fire/Ice is a pretty good bomb. Our sideboard (of Team Nijmegen) gives us:
4 Pyroblast
3 Pithing Needle (with great Targets)
2 Pyroclasm

As you can see, 9 cards in sideboard that improve the matchup is pretty much. With 12 removal cards and 11 cards that deal with Vial the matchup will be 60%/65% or something, atleast I guess. You'll have to keep in mind that some lists play Back to Basics. What do you guys think of the Merfolk matchup's?

Btw, don't play firespout. It kills 50% of your own creatures and costs 3 mana. Way to much.

@ Tangle.Wire

Troll Ascetic seems to be a creature that does not fit in this deck. The casting cost just seems too much. GG seems hard to get. I don't think it belongs in the deck.
About Back to Basics: Maybe Magus of the Moon is a better idea. It's a kill that not completely shuts down yourself and has a better effect (Fetch + Untapped Dual). However, both cards seem not that great for a deck like this in its present form.

betterthenandrew
06-26-2009, 02:15 PM
What do you guys think about an troll ascetic 1x on the mainboard,... so on some tests with other decks the Troll was so amasing as it is a 5th mongoose with regenerate what also can beat up aggro decks as well. But i am not sure about the cc of 1GG like every other deck i run 4 tropicals no basics and some fetches but so getting gg looks pretty hard to me.

I'm prettty sure Troll Ascetic is not what this deck want, it seem terribly inefficient. I think Richard Feldman said it best:


Troll Ascetic is a three-power “beater” for three, which has not been an acceptable power-to-casting-cost ratio for a “beater” in Extended since Call of the Herd and Morphling were good, let alone in the era of Doran and Wooly Thoctar and, hell, even Ashenmoor Gouger. Worse, this chump has the audacity to show up to the party with two toughness, forcing you to pay mana when you want him to block. On top of his shoddy baseline stats, he demands two mana to regenerate, which has never been a reasonable price for regeneration. And the final ability on this lump of inefficiency is that he makes it difficult for your opponent to do you the favor of removing him from the table for you. Man, where do I sign up?

In short a 3 power, 3 mana beater that doesn't really do anything or have evasion (compared to say, Tyrogen Predator or Vendilion Clique) and that requires you to hold open 2 mana at all times to be any good seems pretty bad. And you need to hit the double green on top of that? No, I'm pretty sure its a poor fit here. Bad for tempo. Pretty much just seems bad actually.

Adan
06-26-2009, 03:20 PM
But why do you want to sideboard your daze's out against Landstill. Should you not remove other cards instead? Maybe you're right but it just seems that Daze is such a powerfull card against such a deck. They will run into a Daze if they mess it up or something. Attacking their manabase and having an early clock makes them not wanna wait. Or what do you think?
Agroloam is probably a good example of removing your daze's. More removal is probably better than hoping that they'll run in a daze.

Adan, how does your sideboard look like? How can u possibly find room for Blue Elemental Blast's? Instead of Disrupt's?

A good Landstill player will play around your manadenial anyway which makes Daze worse. Daze can be powerful if your manadenial plan succeeds, but if it doesn't, it blows.

But when the manadenial plan fails, I usually hold back Stifles and Wasteland just to attack Mishras and to stifle a Decree or a Elsbeth (I guarantee, that's techy. Stifle Elsbeth and then attack it to get rid of it very easily.)

And well, REBs are godlike.

And yes, I play gooba's conventional SB, but threw out the Disrupts for BEBs after I found them quite useless after 9 rounds of nerding around at Annecy.

DragoFireheart
06-26-2009, 07:15 PM
Is it possible to add a single island to this deck to help it vs the mirrior matches and moon decks?

Atog
06-27-2009, 03:01 AM
Is it possible to add a single island to this deck to help it vs the mirrior matches and moon decks?


There were a discussion about that and some testing before, and they all say same: Not gonna work. That can hear strange but go ahead and test. I tested sometime 1x Island and 1x Forest and that make manabase suck big time. There were hands where i had forest and wasteland, island and wasteland etc. We do not want to play anymore lands what doesn't make u-x than wastelands. They make screw enought when be only land in first seven cards.. So test that setup.

Al-ucard
06-27-2009, 09:03 AM
Is it possible to add a single island to this deck to help it vs the mirrior matches and moon decks?

I play 6 fetches, 4 wasteland, 4 tropical, 3 volcanic and 1 island and for now, its ok for me.

Elfrago
06-27-2009, 11:49 AM
I play 6 fetches, 4 wasteland, 4 tropical, 3 volcanic and 1 island and for now, its ok for me.

Outside of mws I use ghis configuration too (becouse I'm missing the 4th volcanic :tongue: ) and it works fine.

Still, balls to the walls with 8 duals is better IMHO.

Cenarius
06-29-2009, 06:31 AM
I see that like everyone plays this manabase:

4 wasteland
6 fetch
8 duals

Why do you (so everyone that plays this manabase) think this manabase is the best? It's best to see everyone answer this question probably.

Personally I think that this manabase has more raw power:

4 Wasteland
8 Fetch
6 Duals

Since it:
Makes Brainstorm better
Makes Ponder better
The chance of screwing is smaller than playing 8 duals (Fe: 2 Volcanic's seem horrible with some green cards in hand)
Gives you Threshold more easier

I know that Stifle is probably thé or just a reason to play only 6 fetch but what are the other arguments?

Let me know

Atog
06-29-2009, 06:46 AM
The chance of screwing is smaller than playing 8 duals (Fe: 2 Islands's seem horrible with some green cards in hand)
Let me know

Agree. Have you tested that setup or did you just think that could work ok?

Cenarius
06-29-2009, 06:53 AM
huh, why do you quote my passage in a wrong way?

The chance of screwing is smaller than playing 8 duals (Fe: 2 Volcanic's seem horrible with some green cards in hand)

It's Volcanic Island's instead of 2 Islands

Well my current list plays 6 duals and never really got problems with it. Maybe 1 game in like many that I became colour-screwed but that had no further implications on the match.
I'm really curious why you guys play 8 duals and 6 fetch.

Serbitar
06-29-2009, 07:16 AM
I started playing the deck with 6 Duals, 8 Fetches, because I, too, thought it would make Brainstorm better and enable faster Threshold. I switched back after playing some games against Wastelock decks, where the situation came up that all Tropicals/Volcanics had been wasted.
I admit that's not very common and may also perhaps be disregarded, because most games where it happens you either loose or win anyway... (threat on board or not)

Atog
06-29-2009, 07:26 AM
huh, why do you quote my passage in a wrong way?

The chance of screwing is smaller than playing 8 duals (Fe: 2 Volcanic's seem horrible with some green cards in hand)

It's Volcanic Island's instead of 2 Islands

Well my current list plays 6 duals and never really got problems with it. Maybe 1 game in like many that I became colour-screwed but that had no further implications on the match.
I'm really curious why you guys play 8 duals and 6 fetch.

I was quoting right. What i mean for that was, you get too often colorscrewed with 6 duals. I just can imagine how much worse it's going when you add 2 basics. You will have more hands where you have maybe one cantrip and island or wasteland. I don't know how often other players are mulliganing but i find myself too often in situation where i have wasteland and 6 other non-land cards in my first seven. That sucks big time. Add 2 basics more? No way. I think goobafish and others have tested those basic lands and have dropped them just because they won't fit in this deck.

Cenarius
06-29-2009, 07:33 AM
What i mean for that was, you get too often colorscrewed with 6 duals. Lol are u kidding me? Getting colourscrewed with 6 duals and 8 fetch far more harder than playing 8 duals and 6 fetch. The chance of having 1 fetch and 1 dual on turn 2 is probably way better than 2 duals at turn 2. Since 2 duals can give GG, RR or RG while 1 fetch and 1 dual can only give RG or G or R (if it gets stifled, but the chances of that is pretty small).

rancOr_
06-29-2009, 07:44 AM
I've been playing the manabase with 6duals- 8 fetch for a long time and can say that it is 'better' then the one with 6fetch. I play 4foothills and 2polluted delta/2flooded strand.
The situation where you have like 2-3 good cards on top,but dont wanna fetch em away is rather odd. More fetch makes getting ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh easier and provides better use of ponder/brainstorm. If u start with a Wooded Foothills,ur opponent might think ur not playing TT.. it fetches the same so no reason not to run it.

Also@Cenarius/Bahamuth: I have been testing Force Spike quite a while now versus many different decks and it was good nearly every time I drew it.
The bounce is good/can win u games aswell,but I agree that there are situations where you dont really want to see a bounce and/or cant afford the 3mana..
The thing I have with Force Spike though is that playing 2 might not be good enough to have a significant effect on the deck and therefor not worth replacing the bounces or bounce/clique.
I've been looking for a slot that could swith for a 3d one,but I dont really like to cut any spell snares - fire/ice is another option but kinda wanna keep that aswell. Although replacing spell snare might be the best option since it serves same function.Idea's?

Cenarius
06-29-2009, 08:21 AM
We already changed our list into a 3 Spell Snare, 3 Force Spike list. Force Spike behaves like Spell Snare yet is able to counter more in early/midgame.
Cutting a Fire/ice would be a bad idea since if a creature gets online on the other side of the table, seven answers would be a bit too dangerous. Fire/Ice is the answer against a Dreadnought/Countryside crusher etc.

Our list also plays 8 fetch including 4 Wooded Foothills, 2 Polluted Delta and 2 Flooded Strand. I was just curious what arguments people could have for playing only 6 fetch.

Irenicus
06-29-2009, 09:31 AM
@ Cenarius

The problem I have with Force Spike is that sometimes you don't have a creature to make profit of the the tempo which you have gained by using cheap spells. Therefore Force Spike makes sense to me if you could guarantee that you will win fast enough. But this depends on your playstyle.

After playing in five tournaments with Canadian Thresh I know that my early game is good enough and that maybe another beater like Clique is the way to go. In over 20 tournament matches I lost a total of five matches (UWb-Landstill, Enchantress, Lands, FS and Rock). I think that vs. these decks Clique might be a good option. But this totally depends on your meta.

@ 6 vs 8 fetchies:

Until now I have played with 6 fetchies but I might test 8 fetchies at my next tournament. I don't think that the difference will be huge, but there should be a "best" option.

@all:

I still think that changing the maideck by 2-4 cards won't change the power of the deck that much in general. Therefore in my opion the focus should be on the SB. Which SB for which meta, how do board depeding on play/draw etc.

johanessen
06-29-2009, 11:06 AM
Force Spike

The main problem in force spike vs bouncers is that you need a mana open in the early turns while playing bouncers you don't need to, you can make pressure knowing if opponent plays a card that fucks we up we can bounce at some time, if we are playing force spike we can't do that pressure because we need a mana open to counter anything. Daze and Fow are good because of that, and Spell Snare is good at middle/end game while Force spike not.

Fetches

I also think playing 8 fetches and 6 duals is better. Fixes mana, gets ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, gets shuffle effects and emptys land from library.

Cenarius have you tried Vendillion Clique?

Wargoos
06-29-2009, 11:17 AM
Having less real mana sources makes us weaker against anything that eats non-basic lands.
Also there's still the danger of gettin manascrewed by opposing stifles.
I never had any tempoproblems so I'll stick with the 8duals-6 fetches configuration.

Cenarius
06-29-2009, 11:25 AM
Yes sir, I have played the list containing 2 bounce and I have played the list containing 1 Rushing River and 1 Vendillion Clique. I personally prefer the Force Spike since it has a way better early and midgame than the bounce list/Vendillion Clique list.
With a deck like this, you don't want to reach late game. You'll simply loose against 70-80% of the metagame or something like that.
It's clear that u haven't tested Force Spike yourself since having an open mana is probably the first 5 turns in the game for a deck like this. So having more options: Stifle, Spell Snare and/or Force Spike is not so bad at all. Simply use your Force Spike first before using your Spell Snare. Then you won't have any problems later in the game.
You can't rely on your bounce if you let a card slip through. You only play 2 and the chance that you'll see one of them is pretty small. Personally I never had problems with playing with pressure and keeping a mana open. Noone will play Tarmogoyf on turn 2, unless it is needed but that may only occur once in a Tournament or something or unless you have no other alternative, which may occur more often. However that will not make Force Spike bad or something like that.
It's even easier to put pressure with Force Spike. It is not only a brilliant counter vs Vial, turn 1 creature (zoo), Dreadnought + Stifle or Top. It also counters Cantrips combining that with 4 stifle and 4 wasteland is pretty good, but that's just my opinion ofcourse.

Wargoos
06-29-2009, 11:59 AM
I guess I will test the force spikes.
I played a playset disrupts in my sideboard and liked them against aggrocontrol/control and combo decks.
I think disrupt was only that good because it always replaced itself.
Force spike doesn't and it's maybe not the right choice to strenghten the disruption package since Canadian already has the best one in the whole legacyformat.
I'm currently testing 2 Predicts MD and so far those were amazing but it's to early to give a real statement.
Also one Burning-Tree Shaman found his way in the sideboard of my Clique list.
Usually I board him in for a lone clique or a fire/ice because the shaman really is fantastic in matchups where the clique struggles.
Needs moar testingzzzzzzzz!

Irenicus
06-29-2009, 12:21 PM
@ EaD

Like you I played a list with 2 Predicts in the main at the last tournament. They are Ok but sometimes it costs too much mana/tempo to make them work. Normally I would want any 3cc drops in this deck but another beater with evasion should work. But I haven't played with Clique in real life. Always played a mixture of Bounce and Predict.

I think I will try one Force Spike and one Vendilion Clique in the open slots. After some games I should know which card I like more.

@ SB:

Regarding the SB I played the following in the last tournament:

4 Mind Harness
4 Naturalize (Random Meta, Besides CB and Top better than Grip)
3 Misdirection (vs Zoo, Combo and Sui/Eva Green)
4 REB/Pyroblast

Naturalize and Misdirection didn't work out that well. At the moment I am testing the following SB:

4 Mind Harness
4 REB/Pyroblast
2 Price of Progress
2 BEB/Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip/Naturalize

Atog
06-29-2009, 12:59 PM
@ EaD

Like you I played a list with 2 Predicts in the main at the last tournament. They are Ok but sometimes it costs too much mana/tempo to make them work. Normally I would want any 3cc drops in this deck but another beater with evasion should work. But I haven't played with Clique in real life. Always played a mixture of Bounce and Predict.

I think I will try one Force Spike and one Vendilion Clique in the open slots. After some games I should know which card I like more.

@ SB:

Regarding the SB I played the following in the last tournament:

4 Mind Harness
4 Naturalize (Random Meta, Besides CB and Top better than Grip)
3 Misdirection (vs Zoo, Combo and Sui/Eva Green)
4 REB/Pyroblast

Naturalize and Misdirection didn't work out that well. At the moment I am testing the following SB:

4 Mind Harness
4 REB/Pyroblast
2 Price of Progress
2 BEB/Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip/Naturalize

I played last weekend in tournament against enchantress and losted 1-2. First game fast threshed mongoose and couple bolts seals the deal but other games didn't went that good. I think those 3x grips / naturalizes are needed. Enchantress has too many cards what we want to answer (moat, replenish, sacred mesa, choke and maybe humility). I losted both games just because i have to counter something else (i think it was sacred mesa) and then lost to resolved moat, just because i had 1x krosan grip in side.

Have those Mind Harness been good? I haven't tested them but i think i should..