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Waikiki
08-10-2009, 12:56 PM
Dont forget teeg also rocks vs landstill taking out elspeth wog and EE (and your and his fow)

Enigma
08-10-2009, 01:23 PM
I made a couple of tweaks with Brass' list and now have 4 Fire/Ice as spots removal MD and I'm currently trying out Grim lavamancers in SB. This is directly aiming to beat merfolks.

P-M

sauce
08-10-2009, 03:05 PM
I made a couple of tweaks with Brass' list and now have 4 Fire/Ice as spots removal MD and I'm currently trying out Grim lavamancers in SB. This is directly aiming to beat merfolks.

P-M

wouldnt pyroclasm/firespout be infinitely better than grim lavamancer since it actually is a 1 for many w/o making ur goyf smaller/etc and waiting a turn

Mictlantecuhtli
08-11-2009, 12:54 PM
Right, yesterday i got home back from playing the GP Brighton Legacy event and it turns out i lost my little notebook with all my game notes AND with the Pithing Needle i opened in one of the M10 packs i received as a prize :cry: I was pissed off at myself - it must have slipped out of my pocket whilst i was sitting having coffee after the tournament. On the other hand, having lost my notes makes this report shorter since i have no access to life totals etc.

I played the following CounterTop list:

Maindeck:
8 Polluted Strand
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
6 Snow-Covered Island from Ice Age, those with the snow-covered Olmec heads
1 Academy Ruins

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Trinket Mage
1 Sower of Temptation

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 Fire/Ice
1 Krosan Grip

8 CounterTop
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
4 Lightning Bolts i had to borrow from my friend since i forgot my four limited black bordered Blitzshlag in the hostel :rolleyes:
3 Firespout
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip

The sideboard had 3 Blue Elemental Blast and 3 Krosan Grip, but the Zoo matchup is bad and the Zoo players are many so i had to include the four Bolts. The day before the tournament i met Thilo, a german guy who played the Vintage tournament and was staying in the same hostel as me. We tested my deck against his (Team America) and i got run over by Tombstalker with alarming regularity. He then suggested i changed my deck to a more tempo oriented version with Magus of the Moon so we sat and designed the new list. The result looked fantastic, however, i'm too autistic to change decks one day before the tournament so i decided i'd play the deck i know regardless of its bad matchups against everything but the mirror. Right, so the games...

Round 1 vs the eventual champion playing Zoo
Game 1: I don't know what he is playing and keep a slow but strong hand. I set up CounterTop one turn before dying to a lot of creatures.
Game 2: He has no chance to my heavy anti-zoo sideboard... except i only drew my first Firespout 17 damages too late and die next turn to Treetop Village.
(0-1) (games: 0-2)

Round 2 vs Belcher
Game 1: He confuses the hell out of me by passing his first turn without playing a land. I know he is not playing Ichorid because i heard him comment to his friend he had lost round one to a blue deck. Turns out he is playing Belcher, as i learn the following turn when he plays Land Grant, which i let resolve as he kept a land with a lot of mana but no win condition. So i had time to set up CounterTop and win.
Game 2: Almost the same. This time i play Vendilion Clique on turn three and see Belcher. I let him keep it as it was not going to resolve.
(1-1) (games: 2-2)

Round 3 vs WhiteStax
Game 1: He plays a Mox Diamond and i feel very frustrated to learn i have been paired against Stax. Oh well. I resolve Counterbalance and a blind flip counters Trinisphere, which allows me to play Tarmogoyf next turn. I counter other stuff and Grip a Chalice for 1. He then resolves Smokestax which i could counter as i'm holding Force of Will but decide against it as it will hurt him more that me since i have a threat on board, and i can just counter his other spells. I do that. He ramps Smokestack to two counter as Goyf takes his life down to zero.
Game 2: I play a turn two Goyf and am in a good position. He plays Magus of the Tabernacle and i immediately kill my Goyf at the beginning of the next turn, yay! I never find another creature and die to his Magus.
Game 3: I think it was a lot like the first one. I did Grip two artifacts and had enough land to play two Goyfs throug Wastelands and Trinisphere.
(2-1) (games: 4-3)

Round 4 vs reigning world champion Antti Malin playing Solidarity
Game 1: He pretends to be playing CounterTop as he mentions something about the mirror match. I pretend to completely buy it and agree, but i had seen him playing earlier on and know he is on Solidarity and that he has Misdirection and Twincasts instead of Cryptic Command. I play Top, bait a Force of Will with Goyf so i can resolve Counterbalance on turn three (with mana open for Top) and Clique on his draw step the following turn (again, with mana open for Top or Spell Snare). Then Clique wins the game.
Game 2 was very interesting and takes nearly 30 minutes because it takes me ages to find any creatures. He reaches a dangerously high number of lands on the board to my Counter Top when i finally resolve a Clique, see his hand (2 High Tide, Misdirection, Meditate, Turnabout and other three cards), which i let him keep. Since i have seen his hand, he needs to find a Reset as he knows his Turnabout will never resolve, so he plays several cantrips over the following turns, most of which resolve as i don't want to tap Top. I start floating another Clique on the top of my library: since a counter-war is inevitable, his only realistic way to win will be to resolve a Meditate so i prepare myself for it. I resolve a Tarmogoyf at some point and put him in a two turn clock. He surprises me by attempting to Turnabout my lands at the end of my turn (after i attacked him down to 2 life). I figure he just wants me to waste a counterspell. I respond by playing the only red spell i played in the entire match, Fire, just enough to kill him. He now must to counter it! He plays Force of Will pitching Twincast, i Force of Will back, he plays Opt, which resolves and then attempts to play Brainstorm. This time i activate and tap top to counter it, so he has to pitch High Tide to Misdirect my Force of Will. At this point he is left with just one card in hand, so i let Misdirection resolve. Fire gets countered and i Brainstorm to rearrange the top of my library before Turnabout taps my lands. This is when he needs to find and resolve a Meditate to have a shot at winning (but Clique continues to sit happily on the top of my deck). He draws and passes the turn. On my turn, he taps my creatures with Turnabout to have another turn. On his turn he plays Brainstorm and finds nothing. I still had at least one Spell Snare for Reset but luckily it wasn't necessary.
(3-1) (games: 6-3)

Round 5 vs Suicide Black
Game 1: His Mishra's Factory take my life total down to around 8. Then i stabilise, kill his Factory with a flashed-in Clique, see his hand and i don't think he resolves another spell from there. I proceed to beat down with a Jitte-equipped Trinket Mage.
Game 2: Can't remember much except countering a lot of spells.
(4-1) (games: 8-3)

If i win next round i would be able to ID into top 8!

Round 6 vs Dead Eva or something like that: Black shell with Sinkholes, Tarmogoyfs, Swords to Plowshares, Dark Confidants, Qasali Pridemage (!!!) AND Elvish Spirit Guide to play his 2cc creatures on turn one. A very nice deck.
Game 1: I win with CounterTop and Goyf.
Game 2: Turn one Bob, turn two Bob. I hope his Bobs deal him some damage while i can stabilise but he reveals just lands. I counter some spells, kill one Bob but he resolves a Pridemage. Then i lose at some point.
Game 3 went for quite some time. I don't remember all the details but i was always behind. There was a hard fought attrition war that went for several turns and after which i'm left with a hand of two lands and Sower of Temptation; my board is Top and a Goyf. His hand is just a land and his board is a Jotun Grunt which he had just resolved. He's at 20 life and i'm at 4. On my turn I take his Grunt, Goyf beats him for 6 and i pray he doesn't draw a removal spell on that turn as my hand is just two land. If he doesn't, i can take him down to just 2 life the following turn. Afterwards, even if he get's a removal spell i can reasonably hope to find any of the 2 Fire/Ice or 4 Lightning Bolt that are still in my library before his Grunt is able to kill my Goyf. But he draws into Vindicate and i'm tapped out so i can't activate top . I just tap it to draw a Lightning Bolt :cry: He kills Sower and gets his Grunt Back and i just see lands afterwards. Grunt eventually eats the graveyards and kills my Goyf and then me on the second (or fourth?) turn after time on the round was up. So close...
(4-2) (games: 9-5)

I'm bummed and exhausted and consider asking my round 7 opponend if he'd agree to draw as none of us will top 8 even winning, but for some reason i don't ask and the game starts with a 5 minutes extension the judge kindly gave us because i had had no time to go to the toilet between rounds.

Round 7 vs 43 Land, my opponent is a german guy named Sascha Something and claims to have created the deck. I had never played against 43 Lands or even seen it in action. After playing Solidarity for years, i never actually cared for this deck because it is just a bye for Solidarity... only i didn't have any High Tides with me this time.
Game 1: Game 1 was a 50 minutes draw-go purgatory for both of us. The board was infested with permanents carefully designed to nullify each other. He had initially dealt some damage with Factories but then i stabilised. He always had as many Maze of Ith as i had creatures and could only push some damage in when maths allowed. Every time he had more manlands than me i managed to steal one with Shackles or Sower of Temptation. Life from the Loam got countered no less than 10 times (really) and i was about to punt out of exhaustion (he was probably too). He was just waiting for me to forget to float a Counterbalance on top of my library to resolve Loam while i was desperately digging for more creatures. It was painful. Very painful. When his deck was getting a bit too thin (after dredging Loam a few times just to get it countered again) he went for a more solid draw-go strategy to make the game even less interactive. My other creatures (those still in my library) decided to call it a day and even though i Pondered/Brainstormed/Topped the hell out of my library they decided to just go for a drink leaving me and the only loyal creatures facing an army of lands big enough to hardcast a Draco and leave mana open for another one. In the end, my opponent found enough manlands to alfa strike me to death.
(4-3) (games: 9-6)

So that's it. Good fun and good games, but a bit frustrating that a top decked Vindicate kicked me out from top 8. Oh well, i guess one of us had to draw the winning card anyway. I came 16th out of 69 players and got two M10 boosters, one with a crap rare and one with a Pithing Needle which i immediately lost... What an idiot...

EDIT: Too tired (and short of time) now to spell check but i'll be editing any nonsense later.

Jujuhawk
08-11-2009, 07:17 PM
Your list also play 10 creatures, with only 4 real creatures (since Clique and Trinket Mage are no real threaths).

I think that's really wrong. I can't count the number of games I've won in UBWG nlu by beats with trinket mages. After the dust settles and the goyfs trade with removal and such, your random utility creatures are often stick and can get there. Also, vendillion is ridiculous in the air.

Tangle.Wire
08-12-2009, 08:27 AM
I'd like to get some thoughts for my Current Stifle/Nought list which is in fact a mix of Dreadstill and Countertop but i playtested it without counterbalance the last days beeing very impressed but still got a filthy feeling playing completely without counterbalance, here is my current list:

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trinket Mage
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire//Ice
3 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Stifle

4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
2 Island

Sideboard:

4 Pyroblast
2 Krosan Grip
3 Firespout
1 engineered explosives
2 tormods crypt
2 pithing needle
1 spell snare

I'am nor completly sure if i should play three Grip or Firespout as i got 4 bolt 4 fire//ice in the maindeck. I play 4 daze mainboard beeing able to board a daze for the fourth spell snare.

If i get back on counterbalance i would go to play 3 top and 3 balance main + 1 balance on the sideboard but i dont wanna cut that many slots and also i think nearly each deck/player handles and expects countertop. :rolleyes:

My thoughts where cutting back 4 Bolt 1 Ponder 1 Daze for 3 Top 3 Balance main and cutting 2 crypt/needle 1 spell snare 1 firespout and the 1 explosives for 4 Bolt and 1 Counterbalance for the Sideboard.

Ch@os
08-12-2009, 08:45 AM
Thats Dreadstill, isn't there a primer somewhere?

Tangle.Wire
08-12-2009, 09:01 AM
Thats Dreadstill, isn't there a primer somewhere?

No its not really dreadstill, as i actually play without factory and Landstill, it could be a kind of ugly TempoTresh. But the strategy is even different to both and plays really same as the Countertop lists. :confused:

FoolofaTook
08-12-2009, 09:04 AM
No Standstills + no Counterbalance + no Sensei's Divining Top + no Mishra's Factory = not Dreadstill.

Obviously it's not CounterTop also. It's more like a modern Fish of some sort. I don't actually think there is a thread on the source that fits it although Tempo Threshold is probably closest.

Tangle.Wire
08-12-2009, 09:15 AM
No Standstills + no Counterbalance + no Sensei's Divining Top + no Mishra's Factory = not Dreadstill.

Obviously it's not CounterTop also. It's more like a modern Fish of some sort. I don't actually think there is a thread on the source that fits it although Tempo Threshold is probably closest.

so in fact of this i dont get answers and instead make a new thread which gets closed cause the Deck is to similar to TempTresh and Dreadstill?

FoolofaTook
08-12-2009, 09:47 AM
You're going to get answers that don't help you much if you post a list in a thread where it's not really part of the archetype. As an example, you have now posted this list in both the Dreadstill and CounterTop lists despite the fact that it does not run Counterbalance or Sensei's Divining Top, both of which are defining cards in the archetype in question.

If you have a neat hybrid idea, and this might qualify, then take it to a couple of tourneys and see how it plays. Then you can figure out, based on the results, where to post it: either in New and Developmental or Established. See the Ultimate Walker thread for all the pitfalls associated with taking a hybridization or extension of an existing concept and putting it up for review. If that list had gotten posted in the Landstill thread it would never have gotten anything but a series of comments about how it was not Landstill. Because the developers actually took it to Boston and top-8'd in a large and respected field they were able to accurately post their list in the Established forum. Otherwise it would have wound up in New and Developmental most likely.

Bardo
08-12-2009, 10:26 PM
so in fact of this i dont get answers and instead make a new thread which gets closed cause the Deck is to similar to TempTresh and Dreadstill?

I'm too lazy to move it, so you should start a new thread or post in Tempo/Thresh in N&D if you want to discuss it. Indeed, lists that don't run Counterbalance and Divining Top don't belong in a thread devoted to CounterTop. :smile:

chokin
08-13-2009, 01:16 AM
I went with a couple buddies to a really small tournament (9 players) with a UGwr CounterTop deck tonight. It's been a while since I've played any variation of Thresh, but in a blind meta I thought it'd do fine.

20 Land
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

10 Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk

30 Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa's Jitte

SB
4 Firespout
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Hydroblast
1 BEB
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Krosan Grip
1 Trygon Predator

Picked RWM over Coatl just because I was expecting to see Burn/Sligh/Zoo. The single Jitte main was for random aggro. Red was mostly for Spout which was both good and bad.

vs Merfolk
G1 - He countered a bunch of my stuff, but I ended the game quickly with Goyf and Jitte.
G2 - Bring in Firespouts and Predator. He brought in Relic and Needle. He slowly chips away at my life and I'm on the defensive. He plays Needle on my Top but I never draw it. I draw into Spouts with no red mana, Grip, and saw 1 fetch that entire game. I go to 1 and finally hit a fetch. Go figure.
G3 - I keep an ok hand with 2 Daze, a Ponder, a STP and 3 duals. Early Ponder reveals Predator, Island, CB. I take it. My Dazes hit Vial and LoA. He counters my CB, but I land a Goyf and a Predator the following turn. Relic gets me again and I stall out with 6 lands in play. He has Thrasher kicking my ass and I topdeck a fetch for my Firespout on the ground only. He's at 19, Predator chips him to about 10 before he gets LoA, I harcast Force, he hardcasts Force back with 1 card in hand, I tap out for Daze and tells me it was a land that he should've played. He gets a Sovereign, I Spout it (I'm at low life). And Trygon gets him finally. 19 to 0. Fuck yes.

vs NO Survival
G1 - He feels iffy about the hand he has. He plays Forest, Birds, I STP it. I keep dropping lands, he drops another birds, I play RWM. He goes Wall of Roots, I STP that, swing 3. He plays Survival (no counters :( ) I STP his guy but he gets Dryad Arbor. But now it's too late because I'm swinging 5 a turn with QP and RWM.
G2 - I bring in Spouts, Crypts and a couple Grip. I get an early CB with no lucky flips. He beats me to 11 before I find red mana and a Spout killing off a Shusher, BoP, Wall of Roots, Flametongue Kavu, and that Deathtouch Slime. RWM recovery after that. He Shriekmaws, I Force ripping Force.

vs RGbwSA
G1 - I keep a decent hand. Land and pass. He goes Birds, pass. Another land, CB pass, he blind Therapy's me hitting nothing and I reveal a land, tries again, getting 2 QPs, goes Birds and passes. I play that land and pass again (need W for my RWM and I have Trop Volc Volc). He gets another Therapy, I flip EE for the loss. He ends up dumping Finks and Goyf. I get a Goyf, which gets Big Game Hunter'd. I play the EE, but it's hopeless.
G2 - Even worse. He STPs my Goyf and plays his own. I draw nothing significant. I die. Never once did I see his Survival.

Ended up getting 2nd for 3 packs of M10. No other store in town has any until the end of the month so I was happy to get that much. If I could change anything, I'd probably fix my land base. 20 land felt heavy. Too many games I had 5+ lands early on. Or pick up a draw engine. I was fairly happy with RWM. Coatl would've been fucktons better in one game, and about the same otherwise. The game where I lacked white, I wished it was Coatl. And one other game it would've been nice. EE should've been Spell Snare or Top 4 and creature 11. Oh well.

Cenarius
08-13-2009, 05:59 AM
If you have troubles with red: Play an extra Volcanic Island instead of the 3rd Island.
You can also play more Pyroblast to deal with Merfolk, Landstill and ANT instead of 4 copies of Crypt and the Trygon Predator. However, it seems to me that u boarded that Trygon Predator 3x. Maybe, put it in mainboard?

chokin
08-13-2009, 10:42 PM
If you have troubles with red: Play an extra Volcanic Island instead of the 3rd Island.
You can also play more Pyroblast to deal with Merfolk, Landstill and ANT instead of 4 copies of Crypt and the Trygon Predator. However, it seems to me that u boarded that Trygon Predator 3x. Maybe, put it in mainboard?

I either had red when I wanted white or no red. REB would have been fine, but I wasn't expecting any blue decks. I would have used it as extra counter/removal. Again, I didn't know what I was going against. I honestly expected burn/zoo/sligh and aggro which is why I played CB and Spout in the SB. TP would have been ok in the maindeck I suppose, but I really thought he'd be a 2/3 flier for 3 against burn and aggro. At least QP would beat out Goyf.

_erbs_
08-14-2009, 04:12 AM
Hello,
Its been quite awhile since i've used this deck and i was wondering if the deck could be improved more.

Thanks

Lands [18]
3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
2 Forest
1 Plains

Creatures [14]
4 Noble Heirarch
3 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
1 Progenitus

Utilities [28]
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divinning Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Natural Order

SB [15]
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Jotun Grunt
2 Aethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Trygon Predator
1 Krosan Grip
4 Hydroblast
2 Engineered Explosives

miko
08-14-2009, 05:24 AM
quasali pridemage in predator slot. try dryad arbor instead of the second forest. good for a lot of tricks and natural order creature.
helps for example to protect your progenitus from edicts.
or blocks a toughness one creature when your op is not aware of arbor.
you can also try to play snare instead of daze. because you do not run any mana denial.

Ch@os
08-14-2009, 07:41 AM
20 Land
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

10 Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk

30 Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa's Jitte

SB
4 Firespout
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Hydroblast
1 BEB
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Krosan Grip
1 Trygon Predator


Omg what did you do to the deck?
Windswept Heath can't fetch Volcanic Island, no wonder you had no red mana when you need it.

Also why the Quasali? When you really want to bring in 4x Firespout against aggro you have to board out the Quasali and then you are really low on Threads.

Brizentine Empire
08-14-2009, 08:22 AM
Would you guys be interested in the deck list or tournament report that won the legacy preliminary at gencon?

Odd Mutation
08-14-2009, 08:33 AM
Well, of course! Put it up! :)

Robrecht

chokin
08-14-2009, 09:45 AM
Omg what did you do to the deck?
Windswept Heath can't fetch Volcanic Island, no wonder you had no red mana when you need it.

Also why the Quasali? When you really want to bring in 4x Firespout against aggro you have to board out the Quasali and then you are really low on Threads.

The game I didn't have red was when I had 1 fetch in my opening hand and I had to get a Tropical Island to play my hand. Yes, there should have been at least 2 Deltas, but it would not have changed the game where I lost for not having red mana because I didn't draw any fetch. I can't help that I didn't draw another fetchland, ass.

You make it sound like I played Qasali ASAP and then played Firespout right after. The only game I killed a QP was in the Merfolk game 3 who would have died blocking a lethal Wake Thrasher anyways. QP was saved for AFTER Spout (no idiot plays their threats right before wiping the fucking board) or they died to removal/removing things.

Adan
08-14-2009, 03:49 PM
Would you guys be interested in the deck list or tournament report that won the legacy preliminary at gencon?

POST IT!!! (The German Nationals Legacy SE will be starting right tomorrow, I need at least a peek, if it's good I might play it. Really, I still have no deck for tomorrow =/ )

Blitzbold
08-14-2009, 04:14 PM
POST IT!!! (The German Nationals Legacy SE will be starting right tomorrow, I need at least a peek, if it's good I might play it. Really, I still have no deck for tomorrow =/ )

At least you'll be there... I'd choose either Red Tempo or something like the 'Japanese' CB/Top list and see how it goes there. Should be a pretty diverse meta. Good luck!

Adan
08-15-2009, 05:34 PM
I went 6-3 at the German Nationals Legacy SE with NassifNLU and I am very satisfied with the deck.

My matchups were as follows:

Goblins 2-1
BW Pox 2-0
Death and Taxes 2-0
Goblins 2-0
UWb Landstill (a good pilot!) 0-2
Elves (Chris "Windux" Wilczek) 2-1
Dragonstompy 2-1
BW Deadguy 0-2 (he was like StoP. StoP, StoP, Vindicate, Vindicate, Vindicate bla)
5color Aggroloam 0-2 (Ruins-EE really wreck me)

I won't write a report because I am extremely devastated by the event, I haven't drink or eat anything for 9 hours. That's retarded.

Buit I have done quite well even in a field full of Tribal Aggro. The Plagues are nearly as good as Firespouts. VERY versatile. And devastating as I counted approximately 16 Merfolks, 8 Gobs, 3 Elves and 2 Kithkins at the tournament site today.

But Merfolk is just such a stupid and awful deck, I don't understand that, every Merfolk player I watched already had his opponent's fist stuck up in his ass and everything. There was only 1 Merfolk in the Top 24 or something.

Blitzbold
08-16-2009, 10:05 AM
I really like the Japanese list (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27996) just by reading it. But when you start to analyze it, you'll find a threatingly low number of cmc=2 cards. This weakens Counterbalance quite a bit.

Another list I like is the one mentioned by Doug Linn in his 'Matchup Analysis' article about CB-Bant vs. Ugr Dreadstill. The CB-list used was played by Benni Niehaus in Hannover some weeks ago: Link (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27809) The cmc's of this list are much better for establishing a CB soft-lock. The high number of cmc=2 is mainly archieved by 4 Pridemages plus 2 Jitte.


Now, both lists contain elements I which I like, but both lists also do have some weaknesses.

-> With Niehaus' list for example I hate getting GW early for dropping Pridemage. This reminds me of testing Canadian Thresh agains Zoo where it is quite managable to slow them down by snaring the cmc=2 drop and wasting one land. Additionally I don't like Jitte when playing only 13 creatures.

-> Sasou's list splashes Red for Firespout which I think is great. I'd hate to play any tribal-deck or Zoo against that list. But as I already said, his curve is not optimized for CB. Additionally I'd exchange the Predator's with Vendilions.


One possibility I thought about was merging the lists, but I wasn't successful until now, the biggest problem beeing the cmc=2 slot. This is one of the results I got so far, but which still has the problem of Pridemage's manacosts: deck analysis (http://magic-decks.de/deck-1237-f75167e8d0337adbd01c1b20bfd8f364-en.html). Note that Fire / Ice is counted as a cmc=2, but in fact is a cmc=4 for CB or Dark Confidant.


EDIT: @ Adan: A friend of mine made Top 8 with Merfolk. It's a list I already talked about in the Tempo thread... one that I hated loosing to again and again. His list basically made me thinking about not playing Tempo for a while and looking for CB again.

loop
08-16-2009, 10:09 AM
But as I already said, his curve is not optimized for CB. Additionally I'd exchange the Predator's with Vendilions.
Wouldn't Qasali Pridemage make sense, if you want to replace predators and have more 2cc's ?

FoolofaTook
08-16-2009, 10:17 AM
Supreme Blue is a very good list and it did win a 95 person tourney. That said I don't really understand why it runs Rhox War Monk instead of Lorescale Coatl. The lifelink is great but the monk is a little bitty creature in this meta and he's harder to cast under mana pressure from something like Tempo Threshold or Crucible/Wasteland. I guess he does stand off a Nimble Mongoose forever though as well as a Wild Nacatl.

Coatl is very underplayed at this point, particularly in lists that are running 4x Brainstorm, 4x SDT, some number of Ponder. He really does get big very quickly in that scenario, and can easily grow from 2/2 when he lands to 7/7 before he hits the next turn.

Waikiki
08-16-2009, 10:22 AM
imo lifelink is just way better in the aggro meta japan always seems to be in.

Blitzbold
08-16-2009, 10:23 AM
Wouldn't Qasali Pridemage make sense, if you want to replace predators and have more 2cc's ?

Yeah, they totally make sense... but the cc remmains horrible, especially when trying to go with a R-splash.


Supreme Blue is a very good list and it did win a 95 person tourney. That said I don't really understand why it runs Rhox War Monk instead of Lorescale Coatl. The lifelink is great but the monk is a little bitty creature in this meta and he's harder to cast under mana pressure from something like Tempo Threshold or Crucible/Wasteland. I guess he does stand off a Nimble Mongoose forever though as well as a Wild Nacatl.

Coatl is very underplayed at this point, particularly in lists that are running 4x Brainstorm, 4x SDT, some number of Ponder. He really does get big very quickly in that scenario, and can easily grow from 2/2 when he lands to 7/7 before he hits the next turn.

I agree that Coatl can become big quite fast. As mentioned before, Supreme Blue seems to love to play against tribal-decks, the main resasons being the sheer amount of removal -both pinpoint and for hordes of creatures- as well as the lifegain RWM provides. Those two combined will give tribal a tough run when it comes to racing.

FoolofaTook
08-16-2009, 10:45 AM
As mentioned before, Supreme Blue seems to love to play against tribal-decks, the main resasons being the sheer amount of removal -both pinpoint and for hordes of creatures- as well as the lifegain RWM provides. Those two combined will give tribal a tough run when it comes to racing.

I guess I'm just allergic to trying to play 3c creatures in a meta where it's hard to get to 3 mana early on, let alone :w: :u: :g:.

Taurelin
08-16-2009, 10:59 AM
Note that Fire / Ice is counted as a cmc=2, but in fact is a cmc=4 for CB or Dark Confidant.


Only 50% true.

For Confidant, you lose 2 life and you lose 2 life (so all in all 4).
But for CB it counters spells with CC2 and spells with CC2.

Blitzbold
08-16-2009, 11:08 AM
Oh, thank you. I thought it was the same for CB as with Confidant. But yes, after rereading C-Balance I also see it. Thanks!

Rizso
08-16-2009, 11:33 AM
Most decks with wastelands arent the decks where you want or need an early monk.

Atog
08-16-2009, 12:16 PM
I played last week against "12-lords-merfolk" with nassif's list and i think i lost all or i win 1 game of 5 or something like that. I had 4 plagues from side but they didn't do much against 3-5 lords in game same time. I think that Wrath of god could do job much better. Merfolks don't run that much stifles that they have played until now, but wasteland is still pain in the ass ofcourse. That could require -1x underground sea and +1x tundra. That would leave 2 empty slots vs. 4x plague. We could put 2x Path to exiles to fight against those lords. Throughts?

Adan
08-16-2009, 01:48 PM
EDIT: @ Adan: A friend of mine made Top 8 with Merfolk. It's a list I already talked about in the Tempo thread... one that I hated loosing to again and again. His list basically made me thinking about not playing Tempo for a while and looking for CB again.

Ah, that guy just had a shitload of luck against Landstill, winning game 3 with only 2 Mutavaults. The Landstill guy then didn't want to Path' the Mutavaults as he will have on-color lands then to play more stupid guys.

But to be honest, red Tempo Thresh is better against Merfolk than Countertop. With me playing Nassif NLU, the important cards are:

- Tarmogoyf
- Vedalken Shackles
- Sower of Temptation
- Swords

and not Balance. Balance is situational, if they have Aether Vial you are fucked, but otherwise Balance-Top is good.

But I find red tempothresh better because you have Goyf and Goose which are basically bigger than every non-Lord Merfolk adn you have enough spotremoval to annoy him to hell. Spell Snares are also sexay and postboard you even have support thorugh Red Blasts which just do everything in that Matchup and Explosives and Clasms are also good.

But I guess Nassif NLU and red Tempo are in this view on par as Nassif NLU virtually has 8 removal spells, too (4 Stop, 4 Sower/Shackles).

Engineered Plagues are sweet btw.

Blitzbold
08-16-2009, 03:40 PM
I thought about switching to a Japanese-style CB list not because of CB/Top, but because of the combination of RWM and Firespout in addition to the StPs in the main. CB-Top certainly helps if they don't have Vial.

In testing he played the full 12 lords, so every time he assembled 2 creatures, there was usually at least 1 lord among them; when he had 3 creatures, there were 2 Lords more often than not, so Goose would trade with a fish instead of slaugthering it. The main problem during our post-board games was him concentrating on my red sources, cutting me from 90% of my removal.

gamegeek2
08-16-2009, 03:49 PM
I've had decent success against Merfolk with my current list:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Academy Ruins

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trinket Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Sower of Temptation

4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Spell Snare

--- Sideboard ---
3 Firespout
3 Krosan Grip
2 Spell Snare
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle

It is high on sweepers because of the prevalence of Zoo and Merfolk, and this has helped lead me to a 3-0 record in an organized MWS tourney (with serious decks and players - my list in the MWS tourney actually is -1 Clique and +1 Sower).

I sideboard the following vs. Merfolk:

-2 Top
-4 Counterbalance
-2 Other Cards
+3 Firespout
+2 Pyroblast
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Pithing Needle

Atog
08-16-2009, 04:05 PM
Ah, that guy just had a shitload of luck against Landstill, winning game 3 with only 2 Mutavaults. The Landstill guy then didn't want to Path' the Mutavaults as he will have on-color lands then to play more stupid guys.

But to be honest, red Tempo Thresh is better against Merfolk than Countertop. With me playing Nassif NLU, the important cards are:

- Tarmogoyf
- Vedalken Shackles
- Sower of Temptation
- Swords

and not Balance. Balance is situational, if they have Aether Vial you are fucked, but otherwise Balance-Top is good.

But I find red tempothresh better because you have Goyf and Goose which are basically bigger than every non-Lord Merfolk adn you have enough spotremoval to annoy him to hell. Spell Snares are also sexay and postboard you even have support thorugh Red Blasts which just do everything in that Matchup and Explosives and Clasms are also good.

But I guess Nassif NLU and red Tempo are in this view on par as Nassif NLU virtually has 8 removal spells, too (4 Stop, 4 Sower/Shackles).

Engineered Plagues are sweet btw.

What is your sideboard looking and what is your sidingplan against merfolks?

Adan
08-16-2009, 05:49 PM
What is your sideboard looking and what is your sidingplan against merfolks?

My SB looked like this:

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [LRW] Thoughtseize

And my boarding plan against Merfolk would be:

- 1 K-Grip, - 2 Trygon, - 2 Ponder, + 3 Plagues, + 2 Explosives

But whether I board out Trygons is dependant on the build, I won't board him out if I see Standstills, but against Aether Vial EEs are already enough and they are also good in the mid- and lategame, thus more versatile. I may contradict myself, but I would board out Sower before Trygon just to be safe. There are so many cards that you can and have to wreck with him.

If he hits the table, you basically take the opponent's chance to abuse Standstill or surprise you with Back to Basics. And he can't annoy you with Relic of Progenitus for longer than a turn.

But I might also consider boarding out some Confidants instead of the Ponders since Ponders may fix your base in case they are running Stifle-Waste and annoy you to oblivion.

I have experienced that Plagues give Merfolks the kick into their balls as they usually don't have proper enchantment removal and a fuckload of Toughness 1 Merfolks (Cursecatcher, Silvergill Adept, Wake Thrasher). You have to focus your spotremoval on the lords anyway.

But I have no clue of which Merfolk build has been the most successfull at all, I know builds with Mutavault-Standstill, i have seen builds with Stifle-Waste, I have seen builds with Back to basics and I have seen chaotic piles which somehow play everything altogether. And builds with Goyfs. And builds with Spellstutter Sprites, Mutavaults and Riptide Laboratory.

You see, I'm getting confused here, therefore I can't guarantee that my SB plan is good or not, but I would play it safe and in consequence neglect Sowers for game 2 since you are actually raising the removal-count via Plagues and EEs anyway.

Brizentine Empire
08-19-2009, 03:25 AM
K guys, this is the deck list that I ran at Gencon and took first with in the Thursday Legacy Preliminary.

Mainboard-
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Trygon Predator

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
1 Krosan Grip

3 Firespout
2 Ponder

4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard-
2 Krosan Grip
1 Trygon Predator
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Blue Blast
3 Red Blast
1 Gaea's Blessing

It's the Japanese list with some slight tweaks, the biggest one being the mainboard Sowers. They're amazing in the mirror match and in the late game in general, and having a 4cc for balance is useful at times. I played it with expectations of a lot of people playing cheap decks in the format, such as Goblins, Merfolk, and Dredge combo (explains the 5 graveyard hate in the SB). It also wrecks Zoo and has a pretty favorable MU against Tempo Thresh despite only having 2 basic lands. Now, I'm typing this report off of memory from 5 days ago and may be quite short, but it should be at least representative of what the deck is capable of. I like it alot, especially in an aggro-heavy metagame.

Round 1- Goblins
The guys over-extended into a firespout game 1, not expecting it at all. I think spout ended up being like an 8 for 1 (if you count the tokens from Siege-gang) and RWM is pretty good in this MU. Game 2 was similar, spout for the win.
1-0

Round 2- Dragon Stompy
My opponent won the dice roll and proceeded to play a turn 1 Blood Moon when I had no FOW and no basic Island in hand. I lose. Game 2 I get two Islands but no creatures before she drops Magus of the Moon. I play Sower and FOW her Slogger, swing for 4 per turn to the face. Game 3 is one of those rediculous hands where I saw 1 RWM and enough removal for her entire deck.
2-0

Round 3- Tempo Thresh
My opponent was Ben Weinberg, who proceeded to take second in the Legacy Champs on Saturday. It's a tough MU, he takes game one with 2 goyfs and I win a long and drawn out game 2 before it goes into time and a draw.
2-0-1

Round 4- Tempo Thresh
Another good pilot, but he got land screwed game 1 and I played too many threats from him to FOW. Game 2 I firespout when he has 3 Mongoose and no FOW. I hear that's pretty good XD.
3-0-1

Round 5- Merfolk
This MU can be risky because if you wait for the opponent to extend into firespout they may just go nuts into the win. I honestly don't remember this match too well, but I know that I kept LOD off of the table with counters and the rest was pretty easy with spout.
4-0-1

Round 6- Natural Order Countertop
This was one of my teammates, and seeing as how we were both 4-0-1, we drew into the top 8, me being the 1 seed and him being the 2 seed.

Top 8
Match 1 - Merfolk
The same pilot as in Round 5 of the Swiss, I got game 1 with a rediculous double firespout, double goyf hand. Game two was back and forth with him eventually winning with two lords. Game three he swung in with a LOD and three guys, I swords the LOD and block to kill the rest of his guys.

Top 4 - Tempo Thresh
Ben Weinberg again. This time I get game won with RWM sideways into Mongeese and a late spout. Game 2 I win through a long, drawn out battle of playing relics and crypts to my advantage while still using Goyf XD.

Top 2 - 43land.dec
This was honestly the one MU I was scared to face. Game 1 I attempt to keep him off of Exploration/Manabond but he eventually gets Loam online and starts untapping and tapping a bunch of lands. I watch until I die lulz. Game 2 I open my hand to see a relic and a crypt. I remove loam every time I see it, unfortunately he sees 2 Maze of Iths. I somehow manage to pull it out through 3 Goyfs turning sideways every turn, managing to do a whopping 4 damage per combat step. Game three was ever crazier as my opening hand was 3 lands, 2 relics, a crypt, and a RWM. I win.

Honestly, I faced some pretty favorable MUs throughout the day and was happy with the deck's performance. I scrubbed out in the Legacy Champs, even after my opening 2 byes. Round three I lost to dragon stompy and it went downhill from there.

Brizentine Empire
08-19-2009, 03:47 AM
And sorry guys, I typed Lod and meant LoA.

Adan
08-19-2009, 04:04 AM
I am not sure whether I shall find that list good or not, it looks pretty sweet for sure but when I look at the curve, it's still built very bad as you only have 12 CC2 spells which is - in my experience - not efficient enough against certain decks.

9 CC3 Spells are a bit of a overkill, you could go down to 5 CC3 Spells and play 4 CC2 spells more. My approach would be to cut the Trygon and the Grip for 2 Qasali Pridemages for example.
And 1 Rhox War Monk for another Qasali maybe. Or add some Predicts.

I really find your list interesting, but unfortinately I think your curve blows. ;-)

But hey, it seems like it has still worked out pretty well for you, congratulations for that flawless performance.

Brizentine Empire
08-19-2009, 02:02 PM
The curve was the one problem that I found with the deck, as there were many times when I was stuck at two lands because of a wasteland or stifle and a handful of 3cc. I'll test the Pridemages, definitely.

sauce
08-23-2009, 01:50 AM
Today's Legacy event had 11 people.. I went 3-1 in the swiss and X-0'd the top4 to win 1st.

Here is my report:

Rd1. vs SmallPox.dec 0-2
Game1: He rapes my hand w/ hymns and duresses and after I get a goyf in play he snuffs it out. Bad things happen from there on.
Game2: See game1.

0-1

Rd2. vs UGWr countertop (almost a mirror, give or take 4 cards) 2-0
Game1: Vendillion Clique + Active Jitte > Shackles. At the time I vendilion him he has Goyf, RWM, Shackles in his hand... I let him keep all of it and still get there.
Game2: Goyf + jitte go to town on him.

1-1

Rd3. vs Mono red Goblins 2-0
Game1: Open up a hand with 2 Qasali pridemages + STP + Fow w/ backup. Dont FoW turn 1 vial, then my Pridemage crushes his Vial on t3. RWM does the rest quite angrily.
Game2: Game1 + 2 Firespout + 2 Pyroclasm... gg.

2-1

Rd4. vs Full English Breakfast 2-1
Game1: He has t2 Dreadnought which is sent farming and buys him infi turns. I finally establish dominating board position with Goyf+Jitte and thats that.
Game2: He gets me thru triple wiff on CB after I plow 2 shapeshifters... GG?
Game3: I go double goyf and he has no removal. They make short work of him.

3-1

-- Top 4 --

Rd5. vs Mono red Gobs 2-0
Similar to the swiss matchups, only game 1 he has mana problems and game 2 I make short work of his team w/ pyroclasm after a RWM gets in there.

Rd6. vs Pox deck (my only loss from Swiss) 2-0
Game1 he has a slow start but rapes all my guys and at one point has a Withered wretch + Black knight + Jitte). I stp his only non pro white guy and go to 6 life while he has a Black knight and Jitte with 2 counter on it.
I am using SDT like a champion for 5+ turns digging for answers and finally see the sower at this point.
I play sower, knowing damn well his Jitte will crush it and its gonna be GG.
My friend Ophidian is watching and goes "nice rip, bro!" after I take my turn and drop the Sower like a champion.
He lets me take his knight... he untaps and plays Smallpox... Awk.
I sacrifice his black knight... he plays another Smallpox and is like "I get my jitte back" (epic punt????)
After this we both have no dudes for like 8 turns and I have top so I find a RWM which gets crushed and then finally land a counterbalance and GTFO all his spells and find a goyf ftw.

Game2: Epic plays on my part, landing CB/top and goyfing ftw.

I am not too happy w/ Rafiq, altho he is a 4 drop thats blue. I think I will take him out for sower for the next event. I changed up my mana base to be similar to bant w/ 2 island 1 forest 1 plains and never been happier vs gobs w/ wastelands, and not having to fear bloodmoon as much.

Qasali pridemage is the STONE COLD NUTS guys, its a fact. I love that card.

DragoFireheart
08-24-2009, 11:54 AM
I'm someone that is on a budget and I was wondering if there are any UGr variants of CounterTop that are viable, even if they are not Tier-1. I lack access to Tundras so I can't play UGw variants.

Mictlantecuhtli
08-24-2009, 03:03 PM
I'm someone that is on a budget and I was wondering if there are any UGr variants of CounterTop that are viable, even if they are not Tier-1. I lack access to Tundras so I can't play UGw variants.

I posted my UGr list a couple of weeks ago, here:


Maindeck:
8 Polluted Strand
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
6 Snow-Covered Island
1 Academy Ruins

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Trinket Mage
1 Sower of Temptation

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 Fire/Ice
1 Krosan Grip

8 CounterTop
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
4 Lightning Bolts
3 Firespout
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip


I have now moved the Lightning Bolts to the maindeck and am running 2 Sower of Temptation and 1 Trygon Predator instead of the Fire/Ice, Trinket Mage and EE. So basically, Lightning Bolt takes the place of Swords in UGw builds. My tournament record with this list (give or take a few cards) is not too bad (7-3) with one of the loses being due to bad mulligan decisions (against Zoo) and the other two were very close, long games which were decided by good topdecks by my opponent (Eva Green w/white and 43Land), so nothing the deck couldn't actually handle. I've been happy with the list so far and i'll stick to it a bit longer before trying white.

Hope this helps.

sauce
08-24-2009, 05:40 PM
I'm someone that is on a budget and I was wondering if there are any UGr variants of CounterTop that are viable, even if they are not Tier-1. I lack access to Tundras so I can't play UGw variants.

there is nothing budget about this deck:
lands = $
goyf = $
fow = $

if you don't have lands/fetchlands/tarmogoyf/force of will, you should consider a different deck.
if you have everything but tundras, just play tempo(canadian) thresh

DragoFireheart
08-24-2009, 06:08 PM
I posted my UGr list a couple of weeks ago, here:



I have now moved the Lightning Bolts to the maindeck and am running 2 Sower of Temptation and 1 Trygon Predator instead of the Fire/Ice, Trinket Mage and EE. So basically, Lightning Bolt takes the place of Swords in UGw builds. My tournament record with this list (give or take a few cards) is not too bad (7-3) with one of the loses being due to bad mulligan decisions (against Zoo) and the other two were very close, long games which were decided by good topdecks by my opponent (Eva Green w/white and 43Land), so nothing the deck couldn't actually handle. I've been happy with the list so far and i'll stick to it a bit longer before trying white.

Hope this helps.


That helped alot, thanks.

Have the Lightning Bolts been useful even though they can't kill big creatures on it's own?

psu42
08-24-2009, 10:33 PM
Tier 1 decks in older formats (legacy and vintage) simply can't be budget. This whole format revolves around Tarmogoyf.

Countertop specifically needs an answer to big and early game threats. I think UGw is the best build in this archtype. And although Lightning Bolt serves as removal and is great for a Goblin Lackey or a Dark Confidant, they simply don't cut it to deal with opposing Tarmogoyfs.

Maybe Lightning Bolt is your best option now...but I would suggest simply investing and getting Tundras or whatever other duals you want now and play the best version of the deck you can.

This format as taken off in the past 2-3 years and dual lands are going nowhere but up in value.

Mictlantecuhtli
08-25-2009, 04:22 AM
Have the Lightning Bolts been useful even though they can't kill big creatures on it's own?

I haven't had the chance to test the new configuration a lot since a few players of our local group have been on holiday this month (including our TO) so i haven't played against other people lately. Sure Lightning Bolt can't take down big creatures (and that is, as psu42 pointed out, why UGw may be a better build) but that is why there are 2 Sower of Temptation and 2 Shackles maindeck to help control the board; they both win games if you can protect them. From initial testing against aggro decks (Merfolk, Goblins and Zoo) it looks like maindeck Bolts were a definite improvement over Fire/Ice. That said...



Maybe Lightning Bolt is your best option now...but I would suggest simply investing and getting Tundras or whatever other duals you want now and play the best version of the deck you can.

This is true. My main reason for playing UGr is the mana stability which improves the matchup against Dragon Stompy a lot, and Wasteland isn't really an issue, but white for Swords is probably superior and getting some Tundras at some point will be a worthwhile investment.

johanessen
08-25-2009, 11:58 AM
This is my current list, combines counterbalance lock with progentius to win games faster against maybe aggro decks and so.

Lands, 18

4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
2 Rhox War Monk
1 Progenitus

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Natural Order
2 Back to Basics
1 Krosan Grip
1 Mystical Tutor

Sideobard still to be fixed, i'm not sure about last 3 slots. Is back to basics really needed? We can play amazingly around it with Nobles, one basic of each and dazing duals.

4 Dazes and no Spell Snare. Reasons: We need a fast Counterbalance online, and when it's online spell snare does nothing, we have 10+ 2cc cost.

Why Mystical Tutor? Well, it can search fast NO in aggro mu's, krosan in response enemy cb, dreadnaught, or use it for cb (cc1 to cc5 are countered inmediately).

But it's the most debatable slot. Krosan Grip is here since i opted for Trygons instead of Qasalis, and can be searched with mystical also.

klaus
08-25-2009, 03:20 PM
This is my current list, combines counterbalance lock with progentius to win games faster against maybe aggro decks and so.

Lands, 18

4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
2 Rhox War Monk
1 Progenitus

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Natural Order
2 Back to Basics
1 Krosan Grip
1 Mystical Tutor

Sideobard still to be fixed, i'm not sure about last 3 slots. Is back to basics really needed? We can play amazingly around it with Nobles, one basic of each and dazing duals.

4 Dazes and no Spell Snare. Reasons: We need a fast Counterbalance online, and when it's online spell snare does nothing, we have 10+ 2cc cost.

Why Mystical Tutor? Well, it can search fast NO in aggro mu's, krosan in response enemy cb, dreadnaught, or use it for cb (cc1 to cc5 are countered inmediately).

But it's the most debatable slot. Krosan Grip is here since i opted for Trygons instead of Qasalis, and can be searched with mystical also.

I kind of like the list, but I'm positive those B2B's aren't needed.
I would probably replace them with 1 Path to Exile and 1 Pridemage/ Tutor target.

johanessen
08-25-2009, 03:24 PM
I found that in most matchup's gettin b2b means win the game. I think that's enough to include it in main board.

Atm, the sideobard looks like that:

4 Meddling Mage (Gaddok hurts us too much)
4 Hydroblast
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Path to Exile
1 Krosan Grip

Kuma
08-27-2009, 07:08 PM
What are some good sideboard cards for the CounterTop mirror match? The best I can come up with are Sower of Temptation and Back to Basics.

I'm running Ugw, by the way.

_erbs_
08-27-2009, 10:37 PM
What are some good sideboard cards for the CounterTop mirror match? The best I can come up with are Sower of Temptation and Back to Basics.

I'm running Ugw, by the way.

For me it depends on your battle plan. If you having a hard time against counterbalance lock, which in generally all thresh builds do, I'll side in trygon predators & krosan grips.

Sower is nice but if you'll go the creature steal route , i prefer threads of disloyalty better as compared to sower of temptation

If your opponent counters with creature steal plan just be ready so you could deal with threats like sower of temptation or threads of disloyalty

Fossil4182
08-29-2009, 10:49 PM
What are some good sideboard cards for the CounterTop mirror match? The best I can come up with are Sower of Temptation and Back to Basics.

I'm running Ugw, by the way.

If your list is not already running them, Shackles can be a game breaker in a mirror match with CounterTop decks.

Brushwagg
08-29-2009, 11:00 PM
If your list is not already running them, Shackles can be a game breaker in a mirror match with CounterTop decks.

I will agree here, Shackels are game changing, and not just in the mirror. I pretty much MD them in decks where I play Counter/Top.

Legacy
08-31-2009, 11:18 AM
Hey, Just split finals at a local tournament winning grim tutor and 75 store credit. Used a similar build to what Brizentine Empire posted on the previous page but with a different sideboard and -1 krosan grip and +1 trygon for the main. Basically if my opponent wasn't playing tempo thresh or was the mirror with vedalken shackles i was not worried. Those are the only decks i worry about. On to my point, how do you beat temp thresh? what is your hoser?

I played against temp thresh twice within the 5 rounds of swiss, losing rd 3 and winning in my rd 5. Rd 3 wend to 3 games, really good player and a terrible match up for us. Rd 5, the player made mistakes such as turn 2 tapping out for tarmogoyf so on my turn i can fetch for all my lands etc.

How i have been siding is
-2 sower of temptation
-2 trygon predator
-2 Firespout
+2 relic of progenitus
+2 back to basics
+2 EE

They bring in several pithing needle naming either fetch lands or top or relic, and red blasts.

What is your tech or do we just have to get lucky?

thanks

MWest52117
08-31-2009, 12:42 PM
Hey, Just split finals at a local tournament winning grim tutor and 75 store credit. Used a similar build to what Brizentine Empire posted on the previous page but with a different sideboard and -1 krosan grip and +1 trygon for the main. Basically if my opponent wasn't playing tempo thresh or was the mirror with vedalken shackles i was not worried. Those are the only decks i worry about. On to my point, how do you beat temp thresh? what is your hoser?

I played against temp thresh twice within the 5 rounds of swiss, losing rd 3 and winning in my rd 5. Rd 3 wend to 3 games, really good player and a terrible match up for us. Rd 5, the player made mistakes such as turn 2 tapping out for tarmogoyf so on my turn i can fetch for all my lands etc.

How i have been siding is
-2 sower of temptation
-2 trygon predator
-2 Firespout
+2 relic of progenitus
+2 back to basics
+2 EE

They bring in several pithing needle naming either fetch lands or top or relic, and red blasts.

What is your tech or do we just have to get lucky?

thanks

Oshawa for 2 Grim Tutors? We played in the first round of top 8 and one of my playtest partners is the guy you split with. (He is unknown2 on here btw) Shackles is definitely a game breaker in the mirror isn't it...

You could use Ancient Grudge to hit the Needles with the added utility of blowing up Shackles in the mirror, or things like Chalice@1 from other decks. I was considering one or two for my board for that purpose but didn't end up running it. More blasts in both colours can also be useful.

Kuma
08-31-2009, 04:38 PM
I've been playing frequently against Tempo Thresh with CounterTop, and I've been wondering/discussing with players at my store how to properly sideboard against Tempo Thresh. The main question is whether or not boarding out Counterbalance is a good idea. The card has the potential to wreck Tempo Thresh, but at the same time Tempo Thresh runs Force, Daze, Spell Snare, Krosan Grip, Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast, Engineered Explosives and Trygon Predator. I think that it isn't worth the resources and effort to fight over Counterbalance when Tempo Thresh runs so many hate cards, but most players I talk to disagree.

What do you think? What would you sideboard out and in against Tempo Thresh?

RogueMTG
09-01-2009, 09:34 AM
I've been playing frequently against Tempo Thresh with CounterTop, and I've been wondering/discussing with players at my store how to properly sideboard against Tempo Thresh. The main question is whether or not boarding out Counterbalance is a good idea. The card has the potential to wreck Tempo Thresh, but at the same time Tempo Thresh runs Force, Daze, Spell Snare, Krosan Grip, Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast, Engineered Explosives and Trygon Predator. I think that it isn't worth the resources and effort to fight over Counterbalance when Tempo Thresh runs so many hate cards, but most players I talk to disagree.

What do you think? What would you sideboard out and in against Tempo Thresh?

I've played this matchup from both sides, and really it tends to be very close (for me), it usually went to three games.

I would always leave CB/Top in against Tempo Thresh, if it sticks and you don't screw up they're pretty much done. Most of their hate cards get stopped by CB. Not to mention that you play counters as well, and if you play Blue Blasts you should probably bring them in (for their red blasts + burn)

If they're bringing in so much "hate" against CB then they're probably siding out some number of burn spells, which makes all of your creatures even better. Rhox War Monk is a beast, and anything with exalted gives your Tarmo's an edge against there's. Most tempo lists only run 8 dudes, and in order to be comfortable spending mana on their own turn to run them out they have to be sure you're not going to just slam a bomb down on your turn with the opening.

Playing the waiting game against Tempo Thresh can sometimes help. If they can't beat you early with disruption they're going to have a hard time beating you at all. Play around daze, let your lands build up (wait to crack fetches), and then beat them in the late game with more+bigger creatures.

Adan
09-01-2009, 12:49 PM
The main question is whether or not boarding out Counterbalance is a good idea.

It would be like popping your penis into a lawn mower.


The card has the potential to wreck Tempo Thresh

That is the very description of what Counterbalance does with Tempo Thresh.


but at the same time Tempo Thresh runs Force, Daze, Spell Snare, Krosan Grip, Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast, Engineered Explosives and Trygon Predator.

...because they just don't want to get wrecked by Counterbalance. :-D


I think that it isn't worth the resources and effort to fight over Counterbalance when Tempo Thresh runs so many hate cards, but most players I talk to disagree.

If you win a resource fight and be able to force through Counterbalance, it will most likely shut down every card TempoThresh plays.


What do you think? What would you sideboard out and in against Tempo Thresh?

I would just board in some Jotun Grunts or Relics. Board out random crap like a few cantrips, UGW manabases should be stable anyway. But I never dedicated more than 2 or 3 slots against the mirror. The key is so pilot well and yeah, stick Counterbalance. It will win you the game.

sauce
09-01-2009, 01:34 PM
agreed w/ poster above, cb+top > tempothresh.
a resolved top should win you the game here actually just based on card quality.
if you stick a cb, you pretty much cant lose.
the only issue would be if u cant get a goyf and they woop you w/ a t1 mongoose.

Legacy
09-02-2009, 10:40 AM
...and if you play Blue Blasts you should probably bring them in (for their red blasts + burn)


I was wondering about this, is bringing in the blue blasts for that really worth it? Others experience really appreciated.

I was wondering if you have firespout main or side, do you make sure they are in your deck for game 2 and 3? At least this way you have something like 3 firespout for their 4 geese and 4 swords for their for goyfs.

My strategy against temp thresh is build up land as much as possible until they have put pressure on you. Even then, they can just stifle your fetch then double waste and you are down to 0-1 lands. Their deck is just built to beat out type of deck, with that said, the longer you can wait to play spells and grab lands the better you will do.

psu42
09-05-2009, 07:43 PM
I personally play firespouts main...they are so very good against merfolk, goblins, and thresh...which are very prevelent in my meta (vestal, ny)

i leave firespouts in for thresh...they are really good helping to fight geese...and serve as a critical 3 cc card to keep on top when you have counterbalance, thus protecting yourself from krosan grip

Tangle.Wire
09-07-2009, 06:50 AM
I'm someone that is on a budget and I was wondering if there are any UGr variants of CounterTop that are viable, even if they are not Tier-1. I lack access to Tundras so I can't play UGw variants.

I'd say Dreadstill ist one of the archetypes beside Countertop which is pretty strong on UGR if you can't run tundra u wont't be able to play dreadnought or?

If not here is the UGR Countertop list i favor:

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
2 Lorescale Coatl

4 Counterbalance
4 senseis divining top
4 daze
4 brainstorm
3 spell snare
4 lightning bolt
1 engineered explosives
1 vedalken shackles
4 force of will
3 ponder

4 Wasteland
4 tropical island
3 polluted delta
3 flooded strand
4 volcanic island
2 island

Sideboard:

3 Pyroblast
3 Firespout
2 Submerge
2 Control Magic
2 krosan grip
3 relic of progenitus

undone
09-07-2009, 10:56 AM
agreed w/ poster above, cb+top > tempothresh.
a resolved top should win you the game here actually just based on card quality.
if you stick a cb, you pretty much cant lose.
the only issue would be if u cant get a goyf and they woop you w/ a t1 mongoose.

Just a nitpick, sticking a CB is kind of irrelivant compaired to sticking a top(in the tempo matchup). Top is about twice as good in that matchup because they can just use burn to play around CB, Top provides infinate land quality and alot of major issues, so in reality the card to fight over is top not CB imo. Im not happy to see CB resolve, but I would force top before forcing CB, top generates additional CBs/forces/goyfs/ISLAND:mad: and so on.

Jayzonious
09-08-2009, 05:49 PM
Looking for some advice on my most up to date CB list. Here ya go.

20 Land

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island

10 Creatures

3 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Trygon Predator
2 Sower of Temptation

28 Other Spells

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ponder
2 Firespout

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance

15 Sideboard
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Firespout
1 Trygon Predator

Bardo
09-08-2009, 09:33 PM
More testing and substantive discussion; less "here's my list, what do you think?" posts. (Not picking on Jayzonious in particular--just needs to be said.)

This is one of the worst threads on the site for that and it's burdening this thread for lack of content.

Brushwagg
09-08-2009, 10:00 PM
I've seen Mongoose not being included in alot of lists in this thread. Is War Monk taking it's place? I must be one of the only people that still play it this style of deck. I still like it because it has shroud.

MWest52117
09-08-2009, 11:28 PM
I've seen Mongoose not being included in alot of lists in this thread. Is War Monk taking it's place? I must be one of the only people that still play it this style of deck. I still like it because it has shroud.

Creatures like the already mentioned Rhox War Monk, Vendilion Clique, Trygon Predator, Dark Confidant in black splash variants, and even Lorescale Coatl make an immediate impact beyond what a Mongoose makes in the early game. And Mongoose is virtually useless when you are trying to stabilize against Zoo early on, being outclassed by every creature in the deck until you get Threshold, and even then only trading with a Nacatl not pumped by Pridemage. The extra 2-3cc in the CB curve is also something to consider; this deck doesn't need extra 1cc in the curve as lists are already running 14 1cc spells at minimum.

Jayzonious
09-09-2009, 12:24 AM
If you had to cram 2+ Lorescale Coatls into a CB list, what would you cut? I playtested Lorescale in a casual game, and the Brainstorm=Free Giant Growth effect was amazing, just being able to threaten attacking with a 3/3 which could potentially be a 6/6 for 1U was a nice trick . Not to mention the giantgrowth is permanent. He also gains +1/+1 every time it's you turn and every time you tap top to draw. He seemed to end up way bigger than Goyf very quickly if he stuck.

Here is my current list:

20 Land

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island

10 Creatures

3 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Trygon Predator
2 Sower of Temptation

28 Other Spells

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ponder
2 Firespout

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance

15 Sideboard
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Firespout
1 Trygon Predator

MWest52117
09-09-2009, 09:54 AM
In my current lists, I've been running Lorescale Coatl as a 2 of in your Rhox War Monk slot, but the 3rd War Monk is a 2nd MD Trygon Predator. I like the 2nd one maindecked since your current list has exactly one out to a resolved CB. There hasn't been a lot of Zoo or Goyf Sligh in my local metagame recently so I haven't needed the lifegain from the War Monk as much as some others seem to have. However I have room in my SB for the 2 additional Firespouts and 2 EE's so my Zoo matchup isn't all that bad when it does come up. To be fair, my current list is a lot like yours Jayzonious (-1 Daze, -3 War Monk, -1 Tundra +1 Counterspell, +2 Lorescale Coatl, +1 Trygon Predator, +1 Volcanic Island) but with a slightly different SB.

blueneverfails
09-09-2009, 11:06 AM
If you had to cram 2+ Lorescale Coatls into a CB list, what would you cut? I playtested Lorescale in a casual game, and the Brainstorm=Free Giant Growth effect was amazing, just being able to threaten attacking with a 3/3 which could potentially be a 6/6 for 1U was a nice trick . Not to mention the giantgrowth is permanent. He also gains +1/+1 every time it's you turn and every time you tap top to draw. He seemed to end up way bigger than Goyf very quickly if he stuck.

Here is my current list:

20 Land

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island

10 Creatures

3 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Trygon Predator
2 Sower of Temptation

28 Other Spells

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ponder
2 Firespout

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance

15 Sideboard
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Firespout
1 Trygon Predator

I would prob take out the sowers as in my testing of sowers, I've hated the card and felt that all it did was stall the person one turn before he killed the sowers.

Jayzonious
09-09-2009, 09:37 PM
MWest could you post your SB choices?

MWest52117
09-09-2009, 10:05 PM
MWest could you post your SB choices?

I'm currently packing:

3 Hydroblast
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Firespout
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Academy Ruins

This is currently designed for a heavy aggro/aggro-control metagame where I prefer to board into a more board-control centric deck against decks like Goblins/Zoo/Goyf Sligh. The Academy Ruins is a test slot for matchups like the mirror where recurring Engineered Explosives can be extremely powerful, if mana intensive; and also the option of trying to get recursive Tormod's Crypt lock against decks that fold to it. Plus being able to recur removed Vedalken Shackles against certain decks can be gamebreaking. The Pithing Needles found a home since there's enough decks in my metagame that I needed to be able to shut down manlands/Pernicious Deed/Qasali Pridemage/Umezawa's Jitte/Wasteland against permanently. For a random metagame, I'd go -1 Academy Ruins, -1 Tormod's Crypt, -1 Firespout, and +1 Relic of Progenitus, +2 Pyroblast. Ancient Grudge has also found a home in here from time to time; mainly when I had a Stax player in my local metagame, but is also a thought when Chalice aggro decks or Painter's Servant/Grindstone decks are on your radar, perhaps over the Pithing Needles.

Jayzonious
09-09-2009, 10:29 PM
Great write up on your SB, thanks!

After the sideboard advice and the Lorescale Coatl discussion my decklist has derived to the following:


20 Land

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island

12 Creatures

2 Rhox War Monk
2 Lorescale Coatl
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
2 Sower of Temptation

26 Other Spells

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ponder
2 Firespout

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance

15 Sideboard
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hyrdroblast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Firespout
2 Engineered Explosives

I decided to cut the Vedalken Shackles. I feel this build has a very solid match up against aggro, but also has a fighting chance against the mirror match. I will play test this list and let you guys know how it works out for me.

Schulz
09-09-2009, 11:11 PM
I have been wanting to start a CounterTop Deck for a while and had been looking a a bunch of lists online and talk with some friends. If you could tell me what you think and give me some ideas


4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Trygon Predator

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Vendalklen Shackles
3 Stifle
2 Ponder
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard-
3 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Blue Blast
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Firespout

sauce
09-10-2009, 10:06 AM
I have been wanting to start a CounterTop Deck for a while and had been looking a a bunch of lists online and talk with some friends. If you could tell me what you think and give me some ideas


4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Trygon Predator

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Vendalklen Shackles
3 Stifle
2 Ponder
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard-
3 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Blue Blast
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Firespout

-3 stifle +1 ponder +1 daze +1 trygon predator
stifle does not belong in countertop... its a tempo thresh card, you should be busy spending early game mana on establishing the countertop lock, not trying to stifle a fetchland and if they don't play one, you just got timewalked.

MWest52117
09-10-2009, 10:52 AM
@Schulz: I have to agree with Sauce's comments about Stifle in CounterTop. The deck design is not aggressive enough to take advantage of the early tempo advantage given by a Stifled fetchland. Plus there is no Wasteland to complement it for LD, and this deck really wants to make a decent amount of land drops, especially if you want to power up Shackles to the point of stealing Tarmogoyfs. Sideboard question: Why do you have Enlightened Tutor in your SB when all it really fetches out of the board is your graveyard hate, and your MD Shackles (I know, SDT and CB, but both are MD 4 ofs). Wouldn't you be better served running cards like REB/Pyroblast or Engineered Explosives in its place?

psu42
09-10-2009, 11:42 AM
Agreed, no stifle.

I have been questioning whether Sower of Temptation is worth a slot in the deck lately. I played a similar list a couple weeks back, and although starting 4-1, I couldn't win either of the last 2 rounds to make top 8. I really liked the deck all day, but was unpleased with Sower.

He was slow and requires too much of a mana investment. It seemed like everytime he hit play I was tapping out and he is just to fragile. Is there any other cards that could be useful in this slot?

The other problem I encountered was not having enough threats. I wish there was another creature that could put serious pressure on your opponent. Rhox and Trygon don't really give any serious attacking pressure.

I have been looking to make room for maybe 3x Natural Order and 1x Progenitus in the deck. Currently cutting 1 of my Ponders, the 2 Sowers, and a Predator.

Any thoughts?

Jayzonious
09-10-2009, 11:56 AM
The other problem I encountered was not having enough threats. I wish there was another creature that could put serious pressure on your opponent. Rhox and Trygon don't really give any serious attacking pressure.


I also encountered this the last tournament I went to with CB. This is why I added 2 Lorescale Coatls to my list.

Misplayer
09-10-2009, 12:04 PM
For additional pressure, try Jitte or Vendillion Clique. I'd run at least 12 creatures with Jitte though, and preferably 2+ each of Trygon Predator/Vendillion Clique because a Jitte in the air is a beating.

Sower was better when everyone and their cousin was playing Phyrexian Dreadnought (esp UGr builds with no spot removal). Sower is weak against popular aggro decks like Merfolk and Zoo, where Shackles is really an all-star in both those matchups.

Additionally, is the white splash still worth it? ELD has had a lot of success with his UGbr build (Nassif's deck with Red/Bolts instead of White/StP). You swap RWM/StP for Confidant/Bolt when compared to the standard UGwr lists. Considering Bolt answers 85% of the threats in the format and the ridiculous power level of Confidant, I think the UGbr build may be stronger. Confidant also curves out your threats a little more nicely.

Schulz
09-10-2009, 01:11 PM
@Schulz: I have to agree with Sauce's comments about Stifle in CounterTop. The deck design is not aggressive enough to take advantage of the early tempo advantage given by a Stifled fetchland. Plus there is no Wasteland to complement it for LD, and this deck really wants to make a decent amount of land drops, especially if you want to power up Shackles to the point of stealing Tarmogoyfs. Sideboard question: Why do you have Enlightened Tutor in your SB when all it really fetches out of the board is your graveyard hate, and your MD Shackles (I know, SDT and CB, but both are MD 4 ofs). Wouldn't you be better served running cards like REB/Pyroblast or Engineered Explosives in its place?

The E. Tutor can fetch out more then just the graveyard hate (which is never really a bad thing) and the shackles. It also gets Top and Counterbalance of if either get destroyed you can get them back online fast.

So now that i'm removing the Stifles what should i bring in now that i have open slots. Would adding Counterspells or Spell Snares be a good add on?

Is there anything i should take out of my sideboard to put other things in or do you think it covers all the bases needed?

Sage
09-10-2009, 02:55 PM
I completely agree with psu42 in that this deck needs more threats. And as Jayzonious pointed out, adding 2 Lorescale Coatl's felt really good in playtesting. Having Coatl in play makes seeing two tops a good thing instead of a bad thing. I took out 1 Firespout and 1 Ponder to take the threat count up to 12. The Coatl also fills a role that even Goyf has a hard time filling sometimes in that it becomes a finisher in longer games.

Also, I just wanted to mention that I completely agree with previous posters in that the optimal land count seems to be 20 due to the cb/top lock being so mana intensive and the added protection from LD is very helpful. Mulligans also seem to be decreasing as a result of adding in the extra two lands.

MWest52117
09-10-2009, 03:11 PM
The E. Tutor can fetch out more then just the graveyard hate (which is never really a bad thing) and the shackles. It also gets Top and Counterbalance of if either get destroyed you can get them back online fast.

So now that i'm removing the Stifles what should i bring in now that i have open slots. Would adding Counterspells or Spell Snares be a good add on?

Is there anything i should take out of my sideboard to put other things in or do you think it covers all the bases needed?

I've run a singleton Counterspell to complement Daze in the slot where other players would add a 4th Daze. Spell Snare is also a good idea, it isn't played in most of the lists posted recently but it is still a viable choice. Moving some of the Firespouts from the SB to your MD if you have enough Zoo/Merfolk/Goblins in your metagame to justify it can help out against fast swarms before you get a Shackles online. A 2nd Trygon Predator seems advisable as well for the mirror match as well as randomness like Stax and Enchantress.

sauce
09-10-2009, 03:12 PM
having more than 1 top is never a bad thing because your top can get gripped, you can draw off the 2nd top before you fetch to shuffle away 2 lands on top of your lib but grab a brainstorm or something w/ the top.. its never a bad thing.

edit: regarding bolt vs stp and rwm vs bob
i think stp is way more versatile than bolt... it kills two of the most important threats in the format always: goyf, dreadnought (not to mention tombstalker and a grown up coatl)
bob vs rwm is an interesting debate.. i played w/ rwm's for last 3-4 weeks and really liked them but i do miss the card advantage/raw power of bob.

regarding sower being weak, youre doing it wrong.
sower is a house. i cant begin to count the number of games i won because of him.
besides, your opponent almost never can follow up with anything more relevant than a sower when youre tapped out.
if you're tapped out to play sower, it better be because you're losing otherwise.

psu42
09-10-2009, 09:32 PM
Like, Sower is either bad or unneeded. If I'm tapping out to play him I'm generally in a bad spot, and he's gonna kick it soon. Or I just don't need him. Either situation he's not very good.

I'll try to Coatl...I'll probably cut Rhox War Monk too....he was fun to toy around with...but lifelink rarely if ever matters, and he's not too big and doesn't grow for the same 3 mana cost.

And as much as I think Bob is great for cards...I'd rather have removal for Goyfs. No lightning bolts will ever remove a goyf (in any seriousness).

Loxodon Baileyarch
09-11-2009, 01:30 AM
Top 8ed a 33 man tourney last night with my custom CoatlTop list.

I got my smashed by Doomsday/Ad Nauseum. How do you guys play that matchup? I apologize if this question sounds n00b-ish, but i was just curious. It just seemed to me like they run too much protection.

Edit: Tried RWM, and he sucks balls. No offense to the people that swear by him, but I boarded him out every matchup. I guess he is just there to combat heavy Zoo metagames.

miko
09-11-2009, 03:37 AM
i like rhox a lot. but i have to admit that i play in a very aggro-oriented meta.

regarding coatl: i also think that clique is a far better option than coatl. coatl just doesnt do anything besides getting big (if it stays on the table). whereas clique can help to improve a lot of matchups (control, combo, etc...).

im also not to confident about daze. playing a lot of 3cc-creatures. i never want to lose a turn due to the land put into my hand. i made the experience that almost every player i play against plays around daze. so i cut it and played spell snare instead. guess what happened. they still play around daze and i was still able to spell snare their important spells. so playing spell snare is a viable option to daze.

i am also not sure if the red splash for firespout is needed. what i am currently testing looks like that:

Maindeck

4 x Tropical Island
4 x Tundra
4 x Windswept Heath
1 x Snowcovered Plains
1 x Forest
2 x Island
4 x Flooded Strand
4 x Counterbalance
2 x Ponder
4 x Force of Will
4 x Spellsnare
4 x Brainstorm
2 x Vendillion Clique
4 x Tarmogoyf
4 x Qasali Pridemage
3 x Rhox War Monk
1 x Umezawa´s Jitte
4 x Sensei´s Diving Top
4 x Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard
1 x Umezawa´s Jitte
2 x Hail Storm
2 x Krosan grip
3 x Path to Exile
2 x Engineered Explosives
3 x Gaddock Teeg
1 x Tormod´s Crypt
1 x Relic of Progenitus

this list is made especially for an aggressive meta. zoo, merfolk, goblins, kithkins. especially the sb helps to improve matches against a lot of aggressive decks. hail storm e.g. sometimes takes out 3-5 goblins...

Misplayer
09-11-2009, 07:50 AM
i am also not sure if the red splash for firespout is needed.

...

zoo, merfolk, goblins, kithkins.

Firespout is an all-star against all of those decks. Also, the red splash gives you access to REB/Pyroblast which are obviously huge against anything blue (e.g. 2/3 of the format)


And as much as I think Bob is great for cards...I'd rather have removal for Goyfs. No lightning bolts will ever remove a goyf (in any seriousness).

I'm willing to bet that Confidant will win more game single-handedly than having access to Swords. An early, unanswered Confidant is almost impossible for many decks to overcome.

UGbr lists have multiple answers to Goyf including: Goyf, Shackles, Sower, Goyf+Bolt. Plus Spell Snare, etc. (Aside: these are the same answers Probasco's list ran without any removal). You'll draw those answers when you're drawing 2 cards a turn with Bob. I'm not telling anyone to play the UGbr build, I just think it's a pretty strong variant.

MWest52117
09-11-2009, 10:55 AM
Firespout is also reasonably good against Tempo Thresh if you can get to the 3 mana threshold; since it also blows away Threshed Mongeese. Misplayer is correct about Firespout; it has single-handedly won me games against Survival Elves and Goblins.

The UGbr list is a very strong list; and even if Dreadstill is in your metagame you still have answers in the form of Sower or Trygon Predator MD, and Krosan Grip or Ancient Grudge in the SB. The main fear for that deck is a fast Tombstalker backed by disruption. The UGbw list is also very strong but giving up Firespout and REB/Pyroblast is painful, to say nothing of the tribal matchups with that deck; yes you still have access to Engineered Plague, but with the average tribal deck packing 8-12 Lords, Kithkin packing at least 8 + Ajani and Goblins now running MD Chieftains, Plague isn't what it used to be.

About Coatl: Coatl dodges Spell Snare and doesn't have the graveyard dependence that Tarmogoyf does. This deck needed more "must counter/deal with immediately" threats that provide a quick clock and Coatl provides it with exactly what some people want. Its essentially Tarmogoyf's 5-6 which versions that do not run the singleton Jitte want to speed their clocks up.

miko
09-11-2009, 11:09 AM
jitte is a debatable slot. and it is definitely not used to speed up a clock. it's just another way to win against aggro.
coatl might be not targetable by spell snare, but clique, too, is not affected by it. as well as it is not graveyard-dependent.

i think the matchup tempo-thresh vs. ugw-countertop is slightly in favor of countertop. because you can deal with tarmogoyf without a lot of problems. nimble mongoose is not even a thread to be considered in my opinion, because of rwm and clique.

MWest52117
09-11-2009, 11:32 AM
jitte is a debatable slot. and it is definitely not used to speed up a clock. it's just another way to win against aggro.
coatl might be not targetable by spell snare, but clique, too, is not affected by it. as well as it is not graveyard-dependent.

I'm not saying Clique is bad; I'm currently running both Vendilion Clique and Lorescale Coatl in my newest build. But Clique is still about a 6 turn clock after 2 opposing fetchlands; Coatl unchecked is a 4 turn clock assuming 2 fetchlands from the opponent, and no Brainstorm/Ponder/SDT shenanigans on our part. And there have been times I can go "Sensei, Sensei" on people and kill them in one or two shots from a Coatl. Jitte was thrown out in an earlier post as a way to speed up your clock, and it can function as such with sufficient flying creatures; I'm aware of its anti-aggro abilities.

miko
09-11-2009, 11:42 AM
@MWest52117: every post from you i read sounds like general truth. "it's like that and nothing else..."

no offense meant. its just like that coatl never turns out to speed up my clock in any game i play.

btw.: i made clear that my approach to countertop is a very meta-orientated one. and: due to not enough play-skill i tend to play a rather consistent manabase than adding red to my list.

i also tested coatl in a lot of tourney and came to the conclusion that i could never ever build up a clock with it. it was always either removed or just did not hit the table soon enough.

that's why i dismissed coatl even though i bought 4 chinese foil ones :(

its just not effective in my environment.

MWest52117
09-11-2009, 01:36 PM
@miko: None taken. I make my points forcefully, so it often comes across in the vein of general truth. I'd run Rhox War Monk over Coatl in a metagame completely infested with Zoo/Sligh decks. I don't like it against Goblins since usually they can get enough dudes on the board to Incinerator it away without blinking.

To return to another point you made, the CounterTop vs Tempo Thresh matchup, it is slightly in favour of us. CounterTop has a much better lategame than Tempo Thresh does due to Sensei's Divining Top card quality. Tempo Thresh has to beat us quickly or risk getting overpowered by CounterTop lock or our card quality. Knowing your opponent is playing Tempo Thresh can also be a huge advantage; I think Nassif makes this point much better:

"...since it seems his deck becomes much worse once you know exactly what’s in it. The matchup becomes easier if you know what to play around, and thus don’t risk getting wrecked by a Stifle or keep a land-light hand hoping he doesn’t pack Wastelands." - tournament report from SCG regarding his quarterfinal match at GP Chicago against Goobafish.

jazzykat
09-12-2009, 03:55 AM
I agree with the statement above vs. Tempo Thresh. I've kept 3 and 4 land hands playing zoo vs. them and that is when I had my greatest success.


Having only 8 threats, only half of those which end the game super fast you have in reality only to worry about their tarmogoyfs. They don't have quite enough burn to kill you without getting a few hits in or letting them sandbag a pile of it (at this point you should have counter top assembled) and mongoose can sometimes be blocked and killed or at least 2 for 1 trade with your goyf.

Just make sure you have enough land and neutralize their goyfs, after that I think the game becomes a lot easier.

DragoFireheart
09-12-2009, 09:29 PM
How easy will it be for this deck to go four colors once enemy fetches come out?

Jayzonious
09-13-2009, 02:18 AM
How easy will it be for this deck to go four colors once enemy fetches come out?

Pretty sure it already is easy.

psu42
09-13-2009, 04:01 PM
the deck already is 4 colors

the new duals open up the opportunity for like 3 color decks to play basic forests or mountains with the ug and ur fetches, that is it really

countertop is hellbent on not missing blue land drops, so we really aren't gonna play more non-island basics...they don't really provide too much for our decks...just replace deltas with rainforests is about it

Jayzonious
09-13-2009, 04:36 PM
just replace deltas with rainforests is about it

If you run a basic forest which I don't see as important...

MWest52117
09-13-2009, 05:16 PM
the deck already is 4 colors

the new duals open up the opportunity for like 3 color decks to play basic forests or mountains with the ug and ur fetches, that is it really

countertop is hellbent on not missing blue land drops, so we really aren't gonna play more non-island basics...they don't really provide too much for our decks...just replace deltas with rainforests is about it

It does make UGB able to be much more stable since the other 3 colour combinations had Windswept Heath or Wooded Foothills to use to fetch green and their splash colour; it gains the most from Zendikar, but gains as much from the GB fetchland as it does Misty Rainforest. I will be testing a single Forest in UGrw CounterTop instead of Tropical Island #4 once Zendikar hits to see if it really effects my consistency in hitting blue mana along with any potential problems with the effectiveness of Vedalken Shackles. Otherwise I agree with psu42 and the others, I can't see running a basic Plains or Mountain unless your metagame is full of decks packing Wastelocks; we only need a 2nd basic land to allow things like Grip or EE@3 against Blood Moon or B2B effects. Just my 2 cents.

Skeggi
09-14-2009, 02:34 AM
I ended up 9th place yesterday with the Japanese list (would have made top8 if I wasn't dumb and didn't make a stupid playerror...), my teammate ended up 3rd-4th place with the same list. Anyway, the Japanese list is nuts. RWM, Firespout, I really like how it all works together. But... we have problems establishing good sideboard tech against Landstill. It's all we miss. What do you guys suggest?

Cenarius
09-14-2009, 08:31 AM
There are some flaws of the Japanese list, I guess.

First: It doesn't play Qasali Pridemage.
Second: It doesn't play Clique
Third: It doesn't play Spell Snare

These flaws, to me, are just not what you need in this metagame. Trygon Predator is not even half as broken as Qasali Pridemage. Clique is the cold nuts against Landstill and Spell Snare well. Do I need to say more :D?

Our team made this list and I've been testing it and it's just awesome.

4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendillion Clique

4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Ponder

4 Counterbalance

3 Sensei's Divining top
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Jitte is not only awesome against any tribal deck. Jitte also wins you the mirror, Tempo Threshold and Rock. All decks are being played fairly often so why not play Umezawa's Jitte? I guess the only reason why people want to include Firespout is the sideboard cards you get along. However, the japanese list doesn't even play Pyroblast. So why would you splash a 4th colour if Umezawa's Jitte does the job aswell?
Another thing: The CC in the japanese list is a bit strange:
CC 1: 15
CC 2: 12
CC 3: 9
CC 5: 4

The list we play have a more consistent CC:
CC 1: 16
CC 2: 17
CC 3: 5
CC 5: 4

As you can see our CC 2 spot is distributed more heavily making it easier to beat mirror once Counterbalance landed. Also our list is probably better since our list plays 3 Spell Snare and 4 Qasali Pridemage to fight off Counterbalance.
It just seems that as though the idea of Firespout is nice, the strenght of our list just seems endless. Miko, I see that you play nearly the same list. You instead play +1 Ponder -1 Umezawa's Jitte. Trust me: The extra Umezawa's Jitte is much stronger :D.

Props to Steven Geurts, who made this list. He just made such a powerful list.

johanessen
09-14-2009, 08:40 AM
I'd want to add i'm not convinced on Ponders, while I liked a lot to play 4 SDT.

The other Ponder slot could go to an additional land, in some cases i found 18 wasn't enough. Maybe that's why you use Ponder in favour to 19th land, Ponder helps to fix mana in first turns, but that's my impression.

Another suggestion is I think I'm gonna use Misty Rainforest in the Windswept heath slot. We have access to basic forest while being able to get a first turn basic island from the rainforest for casting t2 counterbalance with no fear (only sinkhole) I think we all agree on that.

My manabase looks like (ponderless list)

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

Skeggi
09-14-2009, 08:46 AM
First: It doesn't play Qasali Pridemage.
The deck relies on the synergy between CounterTop and Firespout. Qasali Pridemage dies to Firespout. It's not an option.

Second: It doesn't play Clique
You could opt to kick out Trygon Predator for Clique, that doesn't sound half-bad at all.

Third: It doesn't play Spell Snare
I don't like decks that combine CounterTop with Spell Snare. Once you've established CounterTop, it's near useless. Before that, you're usually ok running FoW and Daze.


Our team made this list and I've been testing it and it's just awesome.
*list*

There's a very distinct difference between this list and the Japanese one: Firespout. The list looks good for a non-Firespout list (except that I wouldn't run Spell Snare and CounterTop in the same list). But trust me, Firespout is nuts if you adapt your list to it.

Also our list is probably better in the mirror since our list plays 3 Spell Snare and 4 Qasali Pridemage to fight off Counterbalance.
Fixed that for you. Anyway, we could find out, right :wink:.

Oh, and I have to add that we (my team) changed the Japanese list a bit. Different sideboard with Red Blasts and a third Volcanic Island maindeck.

MWest52117
09-14-2009, 11:35 AM
@Skeggi and Cenarius debate: I personally don't like my MD artifact/enchantment removal and my way to win games against tribal aggro and Zoo to be shut down by random Pithing Needles or dedicated artifact removal, which people do pack in my metagame. With Firespout, I have won games where I've had both CounterTop and Shackles shut down via Pithing Needles on SDT and Shackles, against Naya Zoo. I have to agree with Skeggi about Firespout, it does nutty things to aggro decks. Also, Qasali Pridemage doesn't have a very good chance of resolving if you are behind and need to break a CB lock, precisely because of its 2cmc. It is a good proactive answer to Counterbalance, but a horrible reactive answer, which is exactly when you need it the most. Pridemage is also subpar against Zoo where every burn spell the deck runs plus Lavamancer can remove it with one spell; its merely a speedbump to them. Vendilion Clique however, is something I would definitely suggest; it is exceptionally versatile against almost everything in the metagame.

As for Spell Snare vs. Daze, I currently run Daze, but good cases can be made for both spells. It seems to come down to player preference and metagame considerations since one is not strictly superior to the other. Or one could run both if you have space.

Ch@os
09-14-2009, 11:48 AM
I went 5-2 on a 120people tournament 1 month ago with these japanese list, it's a good one i lost only to really bad luck.

In the right meta this deck is nuts.

JoeChaos
09-14-2009, 11:59 AM
I'm willing to bet that Confidant will win more game single-handedly than having access to Swords. An early, unanswered Confidant is almost impossible for many decks to overcome.


It's true, I ran this, and wouldn't change a single card
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=29845

Bob is so good, one of my play of the days were having countertop out, the played bob, and I let it resolve, just so I could untap and sower it.

Kuma
09-14-2009, 02:27 PM
While Spell Snare isn't at its best in CounterTop lists, it's not bad at all. Without Counterbalance out it's great, and if you get it on top it acts as both a CC 1 and CC 2 since you can tap top, draw it, and play it if you don't have a CC 2 on top.

The Japanese list is awesome, and it's probably the best or second best CounterTop list out there. It has a good to great matchup against Goblins, Merfolk, and Zoo, while being solid against Tempo Thresh, and better than most CounterTop lists against Ichorid. Firespout is an incredibly underrated card in CounterTop, and even Legacy in general. Only in the most aggro-lite metagames should CounterTop not run it in the 75. My meta right now contains the Japanese list and two Tempo Thresh variants that run Burning Tree Shaman and Firespout.

I run the following list, which in various incarnations I've top-eighted at both 2009 Legacy Championship Preliminaries, the 2009 Legacy Championships, The Meandeck Open #4, and numerous local tournaments ranging from 16-28 people.

4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk
2 Qasali Pridemage

3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard:
3 Trygon Predator
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Krosan Grip
2 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Volcanic Island
3 Firespout

Natural Order is incredibly underrated in CounterTop. You can spend the early and mid game being the best deck in the format and running your opponent out of countermagic and then cast Natural Order and win. Progenitus turns awful situations into excellent ones, and the demoralized look on your opponent's face after you went from on the ropes to victory in a single stroke is priceless. There are criminally few answers to Progenitus played in this format.

There just aren't cards in this format that swing games like Progenitus, and I've got the results to prove it.

Gekoratel
09-14-2009, 03:47 PM
Can someone point me at the Japanese list that everyone is mentioning, I went back a couple pages but didn't see anything that stood out as the list, and there are a lot of lists on this thread. Thanks.

Atog
09-14-2009, 03:53 PM
Can someone point me at the Japanese list that everyone is mentioning, I went back a couple pages but didn't see anything that stood out as the list, and there are a lot of lists on this thread. Thanks.

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27996

sauce
09-14-2009, 05:21 PM
i would try progenitus thresh but about 50% of our metagame run diabolic edict and chainer's edict as 4 ofs and you don't always have a 2 drop on top of your library.

DragoFireheart
09-14-2009, 06:50 PM
Is there a reason people run Swords over Path? Considering the number of decks that don't run a lot of basics, wouldn't it be useful to run Path and Bolt in a UGwr list?

nitewolf9
09-14-2009, 06:57 PM
Is there a reason people run Swords over Path? Considering the number of decks that don't run a lot of basics, wouldn't it be useful to run Path and Bolt in a UGwr list?

The interaction between daze and path might be bad. I played a ugrw list this weekend with swords and bolt, and nacatl + lavamancer. I think path would be good in a deck like that if daze were replaced, but I don't think that would be a good idea.

DragoFireheart
09-14-2009, 07:41 PM
Yeah, I can see it being bad with Daze. But, this deck isn't like a Tempo-Thresh deck that can capitalize on Daze due to the mana denial it runs.

Kuma
09-14-2009, 07:59 PM
i would try progenitus thresh but about 50% of our metagame run diabolic edict and chainer's edict as 4 ofs and you don't always have a 2 drop on top of your library.

You're looking at this the wrong way.

The beauty of the deck is that Natural Order is but one of many weapons. It's not like you need it to win, nor does it compromise your ability to win with Counterbalance, Tarmogoyf, and the rest of your threats.

By the time you're ready to cast Natural Order, they've likely used their Edict on something else. Or you have a Force of Will in hand. Or that elusive CC 2 on top with Counterbalance. The deck does run 15 non-Progenitus creatures --- it's not uncommon for you to have multiple creatures for Edict dodging. It's also fairly likely that they won't even draw an Edict in time.

Shit, they may have to cast that Edict early to stop that 4/5 Tarmogoyf from beating their face in. The beauty of this deck is that it presents your opponent with a "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario every time you cast a creature.

Your opponents are going to have to spend most of their countermagic to stop your Counterbalances, Tarmogoyfs, Rhox War Monks, Forces and Dazes. By the time you're ready to resolve Natural Order, they'll be out of options if you play your cards right.

As for green creatures, you run 15. Very few decks are capable of removing 15 creatures, and it's not like it's hard to find them with Brainstorm and Sensei's Divining Top. Hell, you can even get one of them with your fetchlands.

tl;dr --- It's not what happens if they kill Progenitus, it's what happens if they don't.

Skeggi
09-15-2009, 03:07 AM
Is there a reason people run Swords over Path? Considering the number of decks that don't run a lot of basics, wouldn't it be useful to run Path and Bolt in a UGwr list?
Only 1 basic is required against this deck to make Path worse than Swords. So go for Swords, it's the safer route.

ShiftyKapree
09-15-2009, 12:42 PM
I beleieve most decks run basic land anymore due to the printing of PTE, which is why STP should always be run md and PTE in the sb for heavy aggro meta's. BTW did anyone see the new SCG 5k results with the UBG countertop deck, does anyone think that is the direction to take the deck? Or should we just keep using UGW or 4C baseruption style?

spankme
09-16-2009, 02:39 PM
Hey people,

I am going to play a small sized (up to 20 people) legacy tournament in Europe, and have chosen to play Bant Counter Top deck. I was looking for a decent DreadStill list to play and I've met the japanese list (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27996) that I like a lot, and I have almost all cards to complete it so I decided to play it.

I have few questions regarding that deck, and I would appreciate any helpful answers.

Fist of all, I am missing two Teeg's and two Swords to Plowshares. What can I use to substitute these two? For two swords two Shackles maybe? Or two Paths to Exile? What about the missing Teegs?

Second, are there any recent changes to the japanese list that could make it better? I've seen discussion (but almost no conclusions) about Lorescale Coatl, Quasali Pridemage, the faerie...

Last, the predicted meta will have for sure few ANT's, goblins, merfolks, belchers, some UW aggro standstill that was high on recent spanish tournament, and some standstills. What are your sideboard advices? How to sideboard decently? How to stop the ANT deck?

Thanks for any help!

sauce
09-16-2009, 03:10 PM
Hey people,

I am going to play a small sized (up to 20 people) legacy tournament in Europe, and have chosen to play Bant Counter Top deck. I was looking for a decent DreadStill list to play and I've met the japanese list (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27996) that I like a lot, and I have almost all cards to complete it so I decided to play it.

I have few questions regarding that deck, and I would appreciate any helpful answers.

Fist of all, I am missing two Teeg's and two Swords to Plowshares. What can I use to substitute these two? For two swords two Shackles maybe? Or two Paths to Exile? What about the missing Teegs?

Second, are there any recent changes to the japanese list that could make it better? I've seen discussion (but almost no conclusions) about Lorescale Coatl, Quasali Pridemage, the faerie...

Last, the predicted meta will have for sure few ANT's, goblins, merfolks, belchers, some UW aggro standstill that was high on recent spanish tournament, and some standstills. What are your sideboard advices? How to sideboard decently? How to stop the ANT deck?

Thanks for any help!

Counterbalance > ANT

Kuma
09-16-2009, 03:55 PM
You've chosen an excellent deck for your metagame.

As for improving the list, Vendillon Clique has been discussed as a replacement for Trygon Predators in the maindeck. You could move the Predators to the board to replace the Teegs you don't have.

Path to Exile is your best bet for replacing Swords to Plowshares.

I wouldn't mess with the sideboard unless you don't expect graveyard-dependant decks. Then you could cut the Crypts and Relics for some extra blasts, or something.

spankme
09-17-2009, 02:43 AM
Counterbalance > ANT

Should I mulligan until I can play Counterbalance on turn two in this matchup?
ANT seems to be too explosive, and with its chant/silence/duress effects it can protect himself before casting Ad Nauseam pretty easily. I cant counter everything, especially if I need to counter chant/duress.

Also, no clues on sideboarding from anyone?

Skeggi
09-17-2009, 03:02 AM
Fist of all, I am missing two Teeg's and two Swords to Plowshares. What can I use to substitute these two?
I picked up the Japanese list too, and it plays fantastic. What I did do is add Red Elemental Blasts in the sideboard in Teeg's place. You pretty much combo anyway, plus Teeg stops your Force of Will. I don't know what the Japanese guy was smoking when he put the Teegs in his sideboard, but I want some of that too.

I'm not sure if I would simply run Path to Exile instead of Swords to Plowshares. It really makes Daze so much less good. It might be a better option to run Lightning Bolt in that slot.

What I also did was -1 Island +1 Volcanic Island to support the extra red cards in the sideboard. With an extra Volcanic Island, it should be easier to support the 2 bolts too.

Should I mulligan until I can play Counterbalance on turn two in this matchup?
No. You either need Force of Will and a threat or a Counterbalance + cantrips/top. Usually I prefer Force of Will and a threat: once you're in game 2 or game 3, the ANT player wants to combo out turn 1 if possible. Force of Will stops that, Counterbalance doesn't. If you want to sideboard against ANT, take out the Swords to Plowshares or whatever you put in that slot (except if you put in Bolts, they're pretty cool against ANT: resolve ANT, get down to 1-3 life, BOLT, point, laugh). Anything else is usually useful, in my case I boarded in Red Blasts to counter his cantrips and Mystical Tutor.

DukeDemonKn1ght
09-17-2009, 03:07 AM
I don't know what the Japanese guy was smoking when he made put the Teegs in his sideboard, but I want some of that too.


Skeggi, you live in Amsterdam... How can you not know about whatever it was that he was smoking?? :wink:

Skeggi
09-17-2009, 03:10 AM
Anything here in Amsterdam isn't half strong enough to make me put Gaddock Teegs in a CounterTop sideboard.

DukeDemonKn1ght
09-17-2009, 03:13 AM
Anything here in Amsterdam isn't half strong enough to make me put Gaddock Teegs in a CounterTop sideboard.

Maybe... um... Quinn the Eskimo is really big in his meta?? I'm kind of reaching here.

MSC
09-17-2009, 03:38 AM
Gaddock Teegs are insanly good vs. Landstill-Variants. You really want them in your board. That they are helpfull vs. Combo and Stax is just an extra...

Skeggi
09-17-2009, 03:50 AM
The Red Blasts help too, so do Krosan Grip, Force of Will and Trygon Predator. Your meta must filled with Landstill and Combo for Teeg to be a more effective card in that slot. Besides, Landstill plays quite alot of removal, not just in the form of Wrath of God (I know, Teeg stops this one but that's exactly my point), but in the form of Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, or if you happen to meet an older list Vindicate. That Teeg isn't going to stick, and the spells it stopped will be played after that, whereas the other cards deal with the spells themselves. It takes quite alot of effort to protect your Teeg against Landstill, and it's totally worth it if you can, but you already lack Force of Will to protect him.

Atog
09-17-2009, 03:56 AM
The Red Blasts help too, so do Krosan Grip, Force of Will and Trygon Predator. Your meta must filled with Landstill and Combo for Teeg to be a more effective card in that slot. Besides, Landstill plays quite alot of removal, not just in the form of Wrath of God (I know, Teeg stops this one but that's exactly my point), but in the form of Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, or if you happen to meet an older list Vindicate. That Teeg isn't going to stick, and the spells it stopped will be played after that, whereas the other cards deal with the spells themselves. It takes quite alot of effort to protect your Teeg against Landstill, and it's totally worth it if you can, but you already lack Force of Will to protect him.

If you manage to resolve Counter/top, that makes protecting Teeg kinda easy. But ofcource if you don't and they draw enought removal, then it won't be easy..

Have you faced how much problems when facing mana-denial (tempo threhs, team america, b-x variants etc.)? That manabase looks kinda fragile, yes it runs 8 fetches but still. Rhox war monk atleast will be hard to cast against those decks..

Skeggi
09-17-2009, 04:05 AM
There is no Team America anymore in my meta, so I'm not testing against it anymore. I didn't meet Tempo Thresh in a tournament yet, but from testing it can go either way; I won't fetch when they have mana open for a Stifle and I fetch for that singleton basic Island first. If you get to 2-3 mana, and you often can because you play alot of cantrips, you only need to land Counterbalance, that's usually gg. Counter their threats, they only run 8-10, and when they're gone, they'll have a hard time killing you.

I met Pikula(Deadguy Ale) in my last tournament and completely slaughtered it. Game 1 I was able to assemble CounterTop which protected my RWM. Game 2 was about the same story, but instead of a RWM I had a Goyf. I believe somewhere in between I spouted his Hippies. Who cares, right? As long as I get in the beats :wink:. I suspect Eva Green will be harder, but I have yet to test this match-up. You have to remember that both decks (Pikula/Eva Green) depend highly on disrupting your hand next to your mana base. CounterTop is perhaps the best deck in topdeck mode.

God_Dethroned
09-17-2009, 04:15 AM
You're looking at this the wrong way.

The beauty of the deck is that Natural Order is but one of many weapons. It's not like you need it to win, nor does it compromise your ability to win with Counterbalance, Tarmogoyf, and the rest of your threats.

By the time you're ready to cast Natural Order, they've likely used their Edict on something else. Or you have a Force of Will in hand. Or that elusive CC 2 on top with Counterbalance. The deck does run 15 non-Progenitus creatures --- it's not uncommon for you to have multiple creatures for Edict dodging. It's also fairly likely that they won't even draw an Edict in time.

Shit, they may have to cast that Edict early to stop that 4/5 Tarmogoyf from beating their face in. The beauty of this deck is that it presents your opponent with a "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario every time you cast a creature.

Your opponents are going to have to spend most of their countermagic to stop your Counterbalances, Tarmogoyfs, Rhox War Monks, Forces and Dazes. By the time you're ready to resolve Natural Order, they'll be out of options if you play your cards right.

As for green creatures, you run 15. Very few decks are capable of removing 15 creatures, and it's not like it's hard to find them with Brainstorm and Sensei's Divining Top. Hell, you can even get one of them with your fetchlands.

tl;dr --- It's not what happens if they kill Progenitus, it's what happens if they don't.


I can confirm everything said here.

The deck is capable of putting the opponent under early pressure with the mana boost from Noble Hierarch, sending out turn two War Monks or assembling Daze proof turn two CB's. As said already, your opponent is forced to handle your threats quick (especially with exalted).
To fight Edicts it is nice to have an additional fetchland in play, so you can crack it for Dryad Arbor. When you control SDT/CB you should be able to counter it with ease.

The only countermagic that answers Natural Order is FoW because, if played carefully, Daze is useless. Same for Spell Snares / CB. If you still have counters left in your hand, you should be in a position were you can protect Progenitus until he seals the deal.

You can check out my Tournament Report, where I share my latest experiences with my Pro Bant build, also talking about some common issues regarding the deck.

spankme
09-21-2009, 09:52 AM
So, I've played unmodified list of Supreme Blue on our tournament (31 people), with slightly modified sideboard (2 meddling mages because of missing gaddocks and 1 path to exile because of low probability graveyards decks in meta).

Here is small brief:

1st match, Merfolks 1:2 (0:1)
I've won first game quite nicely, getting CB and Top resolved quickly and following it by Monk. Game 2 and 3 were simply too fast for me to handle the damage, and too hard because of loosing counter wars (cursecatchers).

2nd match, Merfolks 0:2 (0:2)
Both games were looking the same: loosing counter wars because of cursecatchers, and me breaking multiple standstills just to play anything to defend against mutavaults and lords played from vial. Terrible matchup.

3rd match, ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh CT + NO 0:2 (0:3)
Both games ended up in same way - nobody could get any stuff on the board due to CB on one of the sides or counters, and then my opponent casting Natual Order for Progenitus, to which I either had no counter, or loose the counter war over NO.

4th match, random WB, 2:0 (1:3)
Last table, so there is not much to comment, a player was casual type who took two fast games.

5th match, SmallPox, 1:2 (1:4)
Won first game with early CB, and being able to draw answers to Urami and Tombstalkers. Second game was lost by him completely disrupting my hand, leaving me CB in play, without any chance to answer the 5/5 monsters. Third was lost due extripate into Swords to plowshares, extripate to Top (discarded by thoughtseize), artifact changing to 5/5 for 2B (dont remember the card name) bashing me for quick win.

I went terrible. I was so happy for the legacy tournament, I was preparing for it collecting all cards for few months and then it was complete nightmare. I've missed the meta completely, I felt my sideboard being dead all the time. I also felt the deck to be amazingly unstable, giving me too much mana, or simply not having good answers to what was happening on the table. I ended sad, beaten up and dissapointed. The tournament final was between two merfolk decks that I've faced in first two matches.

The positive feelings are about Monks and Firespouts, probably best cards in the deck, that can turn the game around. If ever resolved.

psu42
09-21-2009, 04:59 PM
I don't know about you...but I find merfolk to be a very easy matchup. You have mainboard firespouts which trump everything they play. The only card I worry about from them is Jitte.

spankme
09-21-2009, 05:35 PM
Yeah. Firespout is damn easy to play when there is cursecatcher on board. And fighting to counter cursecatcher its even more funny.

gamegeek2
09-21-2009, 07:44 PM
Yeah, Merfolk are easy if you have red. I'm not maindecking Spouts but rather Explosives and Threads, but 3 sideboarded spouts and 4 REBs.

Skeggi
09-22-2009, 04:44 AM
Even with Firespout Merfolk is not easy, I can tell you. You don't always have a Firespout, and as soon as your opponent knows you play Firespout, he's going to have a counter ready for it. If you can't resolve Firespout or multiple big guys like Tarmogoyf or RWM, you're a sitting duck. Merfolk will run over you. CounterTop is worthless in this match-up, as they do alot via Vial, or can simply cast alot in one turn using different mana costs. I'm not saying it's impossible; but it certainly isn't easy. Never underestimate Merfolk. Or Goblins.

I went to a 80+ people tournament last Sunday and went 1-0, 2-0, 3-0, hey Merfolk! 3-1, hey Zoo! 3-2, 4-2, Vial Wizards 4-3 (play error, I was pretty tired). So, in my experience: Merfolk is doable, from testing, but it can always go nuts and you simply don't stand a chance.

Ch@os
09-22-2009, 05:12 AM
You made something wrong on my last 120+ tournament i beat zoo, goyfsligh & merfolk with this japanese list.

Cenarius
09-22-2009, 05:20 AM
First, Countertop isn't bad. Top searches your creatures and Firespout and if you prevent you opponent from having a Vial, the only thing you have to do is probably put a 3cc creature on top and you'll win. Right?

Second, Firespout is definitely not needed to fight off Merfolk. Pridemage + Umezawa's Jitte is way stronger than Firespout + Trygon Predator. But that's just my opinion. I really don't care if you think otherwise, because no matter what arguments I would give, you won't convinced. So I'll just keep that out.

Third, I don't think we should focus anymore on Merfolk so much since Goblins will be played more frequently than Merfolk, Goblin Instigator will be released in just one week (I guess?). Merfolk can't block Piledriver (and cant do anything about it) and therefore will lose its interest in the Legacy field. It just cannot fight off Piledriver. And since Goblins will be played more frequently, it will loose every single time. So I think it won't be played as much as now. Atleast, that's what I'll expect.
Goblins on the other hand, with 8 Lackey effects and 4 Vials, will be so much harder, than you might think. I tested it and if you opponent gets enough goblins it just because inevitable that you'll loose. One lucky Ringleader will mean that you'll loose. Topdecks from your opponent means that you might loose etc.
The fact that Rhox War Monx is Blue is another weak point of the creature that really comes forward in this matchup. They can simply block with Piledriver or attack (for 11 probably, every blow).

Skeggi
09-22-2009, 08:51 AM
Third, I don't think we should focus anymore on Merfolk so much since Goblins will be played more frequently than Merfolk, Goblin Instigator will be released in just one week (I guess?). Merfolk can't block Piledriver (and cant do anything about it) and therefore will lose its interest in the Legacy field. It just cannot fight off Piledriver.
Didn't I just say not to underestimate Merfolk? Besides the fact that Goblins doesn't always have a Piledriver, Mutavaults can block him, and usually kill him in the process. If you look at Nightmare's list, I think you'll see quite a few answers to things such as a Piledriver. I'm not saying it's a good match-up, but it's certainly not as crappy as you describe it.

Anyway, why are we discussing Merfolk vs. Goblins in here?

gamegeek2
09-22-2009, 08:41 PM
The thing is, at about the same time the new restricted list will go into effect, which will result in an increase in combo, if only by a small amount. Merfolk is well-known for handling combo well, whereas Goblins, as a linear aggro strategy, tends to be vulnerable to such strategies.

paK0
09-26-2009, 04:19 PM
About the japanese List:

I really wanna have some basics, at least a Forest.

Without green you cannot acces you wincons and the Predator, which can be quite a hassle sometimes.

What to cut, a Fetchland or a Tropical?


And is there a way to squeeze a Plains in as well? Or else a MotM is game over...

MWest52117
09-26-2009, 04:33 PM
About the japanese List:

I really wanna have some basics, at least a Forest.

Without green you cannot acces you wincons and the Predator, which can be quite a hassle sometimes.

What to cut, a Fetchland or a Tropical?

And is there a way to squeeze a Plains in as well? Or else a MotM is game over...

Pre-Zendikar, that was a hassle because running Windswept Heath/Wooded Foothills made you unable to hit Volcanic Islands/Tundra with some of your fetchlands. Post-Zendikar you could run a Forest and Plains as well a lot more smoothly using Misty Rainforest. Sample suggestion for the Japanese list:

3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

paK0
09-26-2009, 07:00 PM
Well, the thing im most concerned about is that going for the plains was possible before, yet the japanese player did not go for it:

Im almost 100% certain that a Forest is right, but im not sure about the Plains.
Mb the japanese don't play DS?

MWest52117
09-26-2009, 09:30 PM
The top 8 at the Japanese Legacy Championships had one deck running Wasteland/Port and no Blood Moon effects in the entire top 8. So it may have been right to be greedy in that metagame. And the deck isn't cold to a resolved Magus of the Moon, that just happens to turn on Firespout off every land in the deck but the 2 Islands. A resolved Blood Moon is another story of course.

sauce
09-27-2009, 10:57 AM
Played in a 10 man legacy tournament yesterday, if anyone is curious here is my report...

Rd1 vs Dragonstorm (new player who doesnt know much about the deck)
Gm1 Cb + Top come online and goyf swings for 3 a bunch of turns... Lotus bloom gets countered by CB + Land and its gg.
Gm2 is same as he does not board at all, I bring in 4 BEBs and 2 Teegs.

1-0 2-0

Rd2 vs GB aggro
Gm1 He sees only 1 smother and my 2 goyfs are too much to handle since I shackle his threats.
Gm2 He is cold to Bob + Jitte as Bob swings for 12 shortly. Shackles is amazing again.

2-0 4-0

Rd3 vs GeddonStaxx
We talk about ID'ing since he wants to order chinese food and we rather play EDH and take our chances in rd4. Neither one like the matchup.
I know its bad for me, like 35/65... Anyways we ID.
2-0-1 4-0-1

Rd4 vs SuiBlack w/ Sinkholes & Wastelands
Gm1 I don't play out any of my lands except for fetchlands for a while and spell Snare his t2 Hymn.. I trade my 2 swords for his 2 tombstalkers and finally I resolve a shackles and a cb top is in play but he has a Shade w/ Jitte equipped and I cannot steal it as I am tapped out on 4 lands.
I have a Bob and 2 Goyfs (4/5) with which I swung hoping he would block w/ shade cuz he could only pump it to 4/3. He took 8 and went to a modest 23.
He swung back w/ his Shade and pumped it all the way, at this point I knew bob's use won't be much more than jitte fodder so I threw him in front of the Shade. I could not afford to take 9 as he had 7 swamps as I was at 9. Bob dies valiantly and I draw my 5th Island and shackle the Shade in hopes he punts and doesnt make it a 6/5 in response.. He gains 4 life in response and I have a shade.. Since he has no other dudes, I have no intention of swinging with the shade and giving him Jitte counters so the Shade sits back and I crash into him w/ 2 Goyfs for 3-4 turns and CB+Top hold down the fort.
Gm2 He has a t1 needle which he names before I let it resolve "Shackles". I let it resolve as I have 3 Pridemages in my deck and I can win w/o shackles.
We trade blows and I finally get a pridemage which he decides to Smother and I have the 1 mana to pop his Needle. I draw my Shackles off the top and play them. Game ends here as he cant play any threats and I assemble my CB+Top and get goyf on him.
At one point I stole his Tombstalker cuz I only had 4 lands in play and I sandbagged the 4th on top of my library so that way he would play the Tombstalker. I kindly played my 5th source and wrecked w/ shackles.

3-0-1 6-0-1

Top4 as the tourney is small..

Rd5 vs Leyline + Helm of Obedience Smallpox.dec
Gm1 he assembles hard cast Leyline and hardcast Helm but has no mana to activate I frantically shuffle w/ my 2 fetchlands + top looking for k-grip or pridemage and finally see it on my last fetch, I pray he doesnt have a land drop, and he doesnt, so I take my turn and blow up his helm... talk about luck.
I assemble amazing shackles and he cant win from there as I have 10 lands + k-grip in my hand.
Gm2 is much of the same only his 1st turn ritual is a Sword of Light and Shadow, I follow up w/ a Top since I know he has no threats/hymn or he would have played it.. I have spell snare in hand hoping for the best. He plays land and passes - which vs black decks on turn2 is a huge sign of relief.
I assemble... you guessed it - shackles and win after I needle (from the board) his helm.

4-0-1 8-0-1

Rd6 (finals) vs Type2 UGb Good dudes w/ Force of wills and some extended duals. He had primal command, shriekmaw, mulldrifter, glen-elendra, llanowar elves, birds of paradise... and Force of wills.
I asked him how he beat Dredge in rd3 and he told me "I evoked mulldrifter"... GG.
So anyways, game 1 I go CB+Top and lock him out w/ Force of will on top :D
I let him resolve Glen as I have 2 Goyfs and I don't care about some 2/2 faerie.
Gm2 I keep a shaky hand of 4 lands, spell snare, force and shackles hoping to blow him wide open w/ the shackles but he goes t1 duress which I force cuz I don't want him to know its terrible and he forces me back (Sad face).
He tells me "oh wow your hand is terrible" as he takes my only non-land card (shackles).
I proceed to topdeck a SDT like a champ but even w/ the 4 fetchlands game ends sadly as he has an answered glen + mulldrifter wooping me every turn.
I keep a monster hand Gm3 w/ Bob, Goyf, Swords, CB, Top, 2 lands.
I resolve t1 top which I sense he has a force but doesnt go for it.. t2 I don't top deck force and he forces my balance, t3 I play Goyf and after he goes T4 glen I play shackles which he forces again.. HE untaps and casts Ponders and I generate massive CA w/ bob and put my 2nd goyf into play which bashes for 6 as we had an artifact and enchantment to go w/ creature instant sorcery and land in the yard.
I make small work of him with the 2 goyfs and thats match.

5-0-1 10-1-1

My list:

41 Spells
4 Counterbalance
4 Top
4 Force of will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Ponder
3 Daze
2 Spell snare
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Dark Confidant
1 Krosan Grip
2 Vedalken Shackles

19 Lands
2 Island
2 Underground sea
3 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

SB was:
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Tormod's crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Echoing Truth
1 Trygon Predator
1 Pithing needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte

ptahetep
09-27-2009, 11:02 AM
It's true, I ran this, and wouldn't change a single card
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=29845

Bob is so good, one of my play of the days were having countertop out, the played bob, and I let it resolve, just so I could untap and sower it.

Hi, I really like Bob as well. Have you posted a tournament report somewhere with you sideboard choices/strategy?

I am looking to update my list for an undefined metagame. I know I will get some dredge, some zoo and control decks.

gamegeek2
09-28-2009, 12:07 AM
Bob is great, but red has proved better for me. I play 2 MD and 1 SB Threads of Disloyalty, ridiculous against Bob builds as well as against Zoo.

Jak
09-29-2009, 02:35 AM
I'm putting this together for the next legacy event I play at.

Old School Thresh

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra (may only have one though)
4 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Nantuko Monastery

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Mystic Enforcer

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Predict

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Counterspell

4 Swords
2 EE

SB
4 Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Trygon Predator
2 Armageddon
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Pithing Needle

I might throw CB in there tho...

Edit- Yes Counterbalance will go in somewhere.

-4 Predict, +4 Top

-1 Counterspell, -1 Island, -1 Nantuko Monastery, +4 Counterbalance.

There, now it's competitive.

DragoFireheart
09-29-2009, 09:28 AM
@Jak: First of all, this is the Counter-Top forum, not threshold forum.

Secondly, you don't have counter-top at all.

Thirdly, a single Relic of Progenitus / Crypt will hose the shit out of your deck.

Finally, Enforcer is just too much for too little. His Pro-Black doesn't stop Swords, Shackles or Sower from messing him up and Zoo will laugh at your lack of mana denial / counter-top to slow them down so you can actually play him. Goose is good in Tempo Thresh since you can disrupt your opponents mana and let the wild goose go to town, but without a means to slow your opponent down he's not nearly as good, and many creatures quickly overshadow him.This isn't Pre-Tarmogoyf era anymore: many creatures will come out (since you lack the two popular strats) and just take a shit on the goose.

Also, Counter-Top doesn't mesh well with Goose since that is 8 less permanents going into your yard.

I've tried at tournaments, but it isn't viable to make a tier-1 blue aggro-control deck without Wasteland/Stifle or Counter-Top. Those builds are just that powerful. I'm not trying to be an ass, but classic-Threshold died out for a reason.

Jak
09-29-2009, 11:27 AM
@Jak: First of all, this is the Counter-Top forum, not threshold forum.

I think you missed the part where I said I am adding CB to make it competitive. You should learn to read through everything. And if my knowledge is correct, Counter Top derived from Threshold. I fail to see how running Nimble Mongoose comletely changes the deck now.



Secondly, you don't have counter-top at all.

Read above.


Thirdly, a single Relic of Progenitus / Crypt will hose the shit out of your deck.

Really?


Finally, Enforcer is just too much for too little. His Pro-Black doesn't stop Swords, Shackles or Sower from messing him up and Zoo will laugh at your lack of mana denial / counter-top to slow them down so you can actually play him. Goose is good in Tempo Thresh since you can disrupt your opponents mana and let the wild goose go to town, but without a means to slow your opponent down he's not nearly as good, and many creatures quickly overshadow him.This isn't Pre-Tarmogoyf era anymore: many creatures will come out (since you lack the two popular strats) and just take a shit on the goose.

Ah, so Enforcer is too much mana but Sower is fine (people do run Sower). The card is a pro black Goyf with flying. It breaks stalemates.


Also, Counter-Top doesn't mesh well with Goose since that is 8 less permanents going into your yard.

Yet I am running less creatures. I am running 33 cards that will end up in the GY. Not that bad.


I've tried at tournaments, but it isn't viable to make a tier-1 blue aggro-control deck without Wasteland/Stifle or Counter-Top. Those builds are just that powerful. I'm not trying to be an ass, but classic-Threshold died out for a reason.

Again, you should learn to read through everything.

I like how you took the time to respond but seriously, come on. The list posted is all for nostalgia but I did say that would have Counterbalance in the same posted and made the actual changes.

Nightmare
09-29-2009, 11:35 AM
To add some real constructive criticism to the mix, I'll echo some of the thoughts of Drago. In today's metagame, the traditional forms of thresh from the bygone era can't compete. There are simply too many additional things thrown in the mix.

Zoo will beat you, between their cheap threats, their MD removal for CB, etc. This type of deck was developed as a reaction to the dominance of your thresh/CB deck.

More modern CB decks will be able to play around your weak "3 hole." Consider that Shackles and RWM will slip through, and that many play better CA engines (Bob/Shackles/Sower) to stop you from outpacing them, and it's a struggle.

I mean, I played UGw Thresh forever. I was pretty much the only one playing it for a while, long after the metagame had evolved past it. The fact is, nostalgia is the only thing you're viewing the deck with - if you look at it objectively, it's missing most of the things that make the tier 1 decks as powerful as they are today.

DragoFireheart
09-29-2009, 02:23 PM
I think you missed the part where I said I am adding CB to make it competitive. You should learn to read through everything. And if my knowledge is correct, Counter Top derived from Threshold. I fail to see how running Nimble Mongoose comletely changes the deck now.

Actually, that's why people DON'T run goose: he doesn't change much in your typical non-mana denial deck.




Read above.


I did...



Really?


Between Crypt and Relic, it's easy for decks that want to screw you over at the wrong time to do so. Furthermore, it'll take a good 4-5 turns minimum before you hit Threshold again.



Ah, so Enforcer is too much mana but Sower is fine (people do run Sower). The card is a pro black Goyf with flying. It breaks stalemates.


Sower also ends stalemates by grabbing someones creature and beating them senseless with it.



Yet I am running less creatures. I am running 33 cards that will end up in the GY. Not that bad.

You settle for "not that bad"? I only settle for "optimal".


Again, you should learn to read through everything.

Shouldn't you be following your own advice? You say I didn't read but I made mention of counterbalance, yet your first part said otherwise...



I like how you took the time to respond but seriously, come on. The list posted is all for nostalgia but I did say that would have Counterbalance in the same posted and made the actual changes.

If it's all for nostalgia, go post it in the developing forums or something. If you have a Counter-Top list, post it. All I'm saying is that the two Threshold creatures you are using are no longer optimal in Counter-Top decks anymore.

Jak
09-29-2009, 08:11 PM
Actually, that's why people DON'T run goose: he doesn't change much in your typical non-mana denial deck.

I don't understand what you are saying here. The reason I like Goose is because it gives you a turn one threat that is good against control and can be big against aggro.


I did...

Okay, so you read where I said I have Counterbalance in the list to make it competitive.


Between Crypt and Relic, it's easy for decks that want to screw you over at the wrong time to do so. Furthermore, it'll take a good 4-5 turns minimum before you hit Threshold again.

I'm not saying they won't hurt Mongoose or Enforcer, but that in no way invalidates these creatures.


Sower also ends stalemates by grabbing someones creature and beating them senseless with it.

Against other aggro control decks... Against decks like Goblins, Elves, Merfolk, and Zoo it sucks. Enforcer can end a stalemate of a Goyf facing down two Nacatls or three goblins by flying over.


You settle for "not that bad"? I only settle for "optimal".

You are seriously resorting to this? Old Threshold builds without Counter Top ran about 35 cards that would go to the yard. I run 33. It works fine.



Shouldn't you be following your own advice? You say I didn't read but I made mention of counterbalance, yet your first part said otherwise...

'Yet your first post said otherwise'... How did my first post say "otherwise" to you mentioning Counterbalance? How does what you said make sense?


If it's all for nostalgia, go post it in the developing forums or something. If you have a Counter-Top list, post it. All I'm saying is that the two Threshold creatures you are using are no longer optimal in Counter-Top decks anymore.

I posted it for nostalgia, but I strongly feel the creatures used are competitive and the list isn't meant to be casual. There is no optimal Counterbalance deck so stop throwing the word around.

DragoFireheart
09-29-2009, 08:15 PM
I posted it for nostalgia, but I strongly feel the creatures used are competitive and the list isn't meant to be casual. There is no optimal Counterbalance deck so stop throwing the word around.

Feel free to do so, but I feel otherwise. I feel that the abundant yard hate truly holds them back(Enforcer at least).

undone
09-30-2009, 11:11 AM
Thinking about switching from tempo thresh back to counter top. I can build whatever build I need but the question for me is do you play a basic forest since you can play 4 misty rain forests?

2 island
4 tropical island
3 tundra
3 underground sea
2 misty rainforest
2 Scalding tarn
2 Flooded strand
2 Polluted delta (basicaly 8 blue fetches, whatever)

4 Counterbalance
4 Top

4 Goyf
4 Bob
2 Sower
1 Rhox war monk
1 Trygon predator

1 Krosan grip
3 daze
4 Force of will
4 Brainstorm
2 ponder
4 swords to plowshares
2 Shackles

SB
3 Rhox war monk
2 Quasli pridemage
1 Krosan grip
3 EE
1 Jitti
2 Pithing needle
3 Relic of the progenist

What does every one think? Is war monk better in the main than predator? Monk is the stone cold nuts vs zoo and defending him-> game win vs most aggro decks.

Also what does every one think of 1 volc and 3 firespout in the board? Or is that just foolish.

And is the japanese list with 4 goyf 4 RWM 2 predator and 3-4 spouts better or worse than the black list with bob?

FoulQ
09-30-2009, 02:45 PM
I would like to have a discussion on the japanese sideboarding.

I was watching his final match against ichorid and noticed he sided in relics, grips, and teegs, but chose not to side in engineered explosives, but did not see the massive amount of cards he would have to have sideboarded out.

What is the sideboard strategy usually look like for the japanese list? What cards are you usually ok to side out? Obviously firespout against many decks is the correct choice. Can you side out the creatures, or do you need them as win cons so they are too important? Against what decks do you side out the counterbalance engine, since the japanese list has 10 3cc cards?

sauce
10-01-2009, 09:53 AM
I would like to have a discussion on the japanese sideboarding.

I was watching his final match against ichorid ...

can you link to the videos...? did you actually watch this live?

psu42
10-01-2009, 10:51 AM
they are on youtube...just search

japanese legacy championship 2009

jeanbathez
10-01-2009, 03:46 PM
can you link to the videos...? did you actually watch this live?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWi9adtDaMA&feature=channel_page

undone
10-01-2009, 06:42 PM
I will reiterate my question, which is better the warmonk-> spout version or Nassifs version. Also as the japenese list if you need to sweep 0 your losing and what would come out for it on top of that? I guess it should come in as grip #X but still, EEing tokens typicaly means they are miles ahead.

Madmaniac21
10-01-2009, 07:42 PM
I will reiterate my question, which is better the warmonk-> spout version or Nassifs version.

You sound like you want life handed to you on a platter.

Depends on your meta. More decks with lots of little dudes and burn, warmonk. More blue decks, confidant.

undone
10-01-2009, 08:38 PM
I was just asking jeeze. I didnt know if that cool singelton side board made it better than the spout version vs aggro (as it boards in 1 dark blast 1 Jitti 1 threads 1 enlightened tutor 1 EE 1 Hydro blast 1 BEB and maby another couble cards)

Are you able to just drop predators and sowers to play warmonks from nassifs list or is that a poor plan vs aggro?

psu42
10-01-2009, 09:09 PM
the singleton sideboard was more of a joke than anything else and he admitted it...i would seriously suggest a real sideboard based on your expected meta

no comment on predator and sower...i dislike them in my build and don't run them currently

and using ee doesn't necessarily mean you are behind and losing...against dredge/ichorid/whatever-it's-called you can nuke their tokens it serves very good...and in the odd matchup it kills empty the warren goblins tokens...and it's also decent against countertop where you can ramp the cost to 3 or 4 (generally out of counterbalance range) and nuke whatever permanent # cost you choose

undone
10-01-2009, 09:36 PM
the singleton sideboard was more of a joke than anything else and he admitted it...i would seriously suggest a real sideboard based on your expected meta

no comment on predator and sower...i dislike them in my build and don't run them currently

and using ee doesn't necessarily mean you are behind and losing...against dredge/ichorid/whatever-it's-called you can nuke their tokens it serves very good...and in the odd matchup it kills empty the warren goblins tokens...and it's also decent against countertop where you can ramp the cost to 3 or 4 (generally out of counterbalance range) and nuke whatever permanent # cost you choose

Really? I could sware his comment was "There were just so many good cards I wanted in my SB so I played them all"

In any event predator and sower seem really, really clunky in the deck, predator has a use but sower feels like its terrible in every matchup but merfolk

FoulQ
10-01-2009, 09:51 PM
Sower is a LOT better when counterbalance is in play because every relevant legacy removal spell is hit hard by it. And yes, I've heard of snuff out.

Just remember that Nassif's deck was built to beat the mirror (as was Probasco's). That's why cards like trygon, sower, shackles, and confidant are there.

Bardo
10-01-2009, 11:30 PM
I was just asking jeeze. I didnt know if that cool singelton side board made it better than the spout version vs aggro (as it boards in 1 dark blast 1 Jitti 1 threads 1 enlightened tutor 1 EE 1 Hydro blast 1 BEB and maby another couble cards)


Nassif's GP sideboard was sort of a joke, but also completely functional.

For reference:
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Burrenton Forge-tender
1 Darkblast
1 Engineered Plague
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Energy Flux
1 Hydroblast
1 Kataki, War’s Wage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Perish
1 Planar Void
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

Which is practically:

4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Path to Exile
3 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
1 Enlightened Tutor

undone
10-02-2009, 07:51 AM
I would disagree in that the dark blast seem enormously relivant vs goblins, merfolk and any decks playing bob+goyf. Its also better than a path because you can consistentaly hit x/2s with it and its especialy good if you have a bob out. So I dont think darkblast=path. Perish is also largely differant in that it sweeps bants board and hits shroud guys and on top of that it hits that annoying 10/10.

Also The more I play with

1 crypt
1 relic
1 planar void

the more I am finding out that its almost always better than 3 of any one of those. This is because the hate for each is pretty differant and if they board in anti hate (ichorid specificaly) it doesnt work as well. I think my take on the board would be

1 crypt
1 relic
1 Planar void
1 Threads of disloyalty
2 darkblast
2 Hydroblast
2 BEB
1 Enlightened tutor
2 Engeneered plauge
1 Jitti
1 Perish

Or something close. Alot of these are hugely relivant over alternatives because Plauge is pretty insane vs goblins, jitti is fantastic (and another out in the burn matchup) and your choices overall are just very stable with a better board than most. I was considering dropping predators from the main for Rhox war monks but that would mean adding a grip and a predator to the board.

It seems like beating merfolk might be very hard so I dk if I would run this at a major event without some serious merfolk hate.

ShiftyKapree
10-02-2009, 09:51 AM
Mainboard:
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Confidant
2 Sower of Temptation
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Putrefy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Smother
4 Stifle
3 Thoughtseize

Does anyone think UBG Countertop is the way to go. It seems to me this is the only list that has been putting up any results. I def think this version has a better way of beating zoo decks and merfolk decks, on the count of the sideboard options. Plus now that there are 10 fetch lands the 4 stifles will def help anymore, with less moon affects around wasteland is better in this deck aswell. I'm not too sure on the Dazes in the deck, I never liked them in CounterTop lists. Any thoughts on this?

Cenarius
10-02-2009, 10:14 AM
Combining Wasteland + Stifle with Countertop was never such a great idea. It's just too much the deck can handle.

Having white gives a lot of good cards with it aswell:
Qasali Pridemage (This card is just insane, got nothing more to say)
Swords to Plowshares (Better than Smother)
Rhox War Monk (Insane against Zoo, Merfolk, Goblins etc.)

And Gaddock teeg in sideboard (helps you against many decks: Staxx, Landstill, even ANT is worth to board them in)

Not having white just seems as a non-optimal list. But that's just my opinion.

ShiftyKapree
10-02-2009, 10:26 AM
Combining Wasteland + Stifle with Countertop was never such a great idea. It's just too much the deck can handle.

Having white gives a lot of good cards with it aswell:
Qasali Pridemage (This card is just insane, got nothing more to say)
Swords to Plowshares (Better than Smother)
Rhox War Monk (Insane against Zoo, Merfolk, Goblins etc.)

And Gaddock teeg in sideboard (helps you against many decks: Staxx, Landstill, even ANT is worth to board them in)

Not having white just seems as a non-optimal list. But that's just my opinion.

I have played UGW CounterTop the Stefan Czolk build and I must say it is good but I always tend to lose to merfolk. I did take 21st place out of 138 at the large Vestal tourny. I know that list and I'm tired of playing it. I played 4c baseruption. This is the only list that i see putting results up anymore. I would like to play Ugw but I just think blacks removal is better bc of Deed and Smother

sauce
10-02-2009, 02:22 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWi9adtDaMA&feature=channel_page

man that coverage was the best ive ever seen on the web.. kudos to the japanese production crew.

I don't want to spam this thread, but I'd like to comment that I totally agree. Really professional and superbly done. - Bardo

DragoFireheart
10-03-2009, 12:03 AM
Alright, so what I have seen for a lot of UGw shells is the following for creatures:


4 Tarmogoyf

2 Sower of Temptation

6 xxx

My question is what creatures do you fill in those slots? Why?


Between Trygon Predator, Rhox War Monk, Vendilion Clique, Lorescale Coalt and Qasali Pridemage, I'm unsure of what to fill with those slots.


I'm currently doing:

1 Vendilion Clique
3 Trygon Predator
2 Qasali Pridemage

undone
10-03-2009, 01:21 AM
Q: Is a metagame better to the warmonk build or the confidant build (random metagame). And can you play confidant WITH warmonk or is that a nombo?

DragoFireheart
10-03-2009, 01:49 AM
Q: Is a metagame better to the warmonk build or the confidant build (random metagame). And can you play confidant WITH warmonk or is that a nombo?


I don't have underground seas.

Misplayer
10-03-2009, 08:54 AM
You can easily play Ugwb CounterTop, it's very powerful. I'd run a creature base like 4 Goyf, 4 Confidant, 2 Trygon, 2 Rhox War Monk (if you were looking to fit these, otherwise I like V Clique personally). This gives you access to 4 StP and you can still play Shackles for a creature control element. You could also board into Rhox War Monk in an unknown metagame, which might be your best option.

gamegeek2
10-03-2009, 12:20 PM
My latest list, tweaked for my local meta full of Merfolk

3 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Academy Ruins

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Trinket Mage

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Fire//Ice
2 Spell Snare
1 Vedalken Shackles

--- Sideboard ---
4 Pyroblast
3 Firespout
3 Krosan Grip
2 Spell Snare
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Threads of Disloyalty

For my next big 25+ man tourney I'm making the following meta adjustments, to prepare for more Zoo and Tempo Thresh

-2 Fire//Ice
+2 Threads of Disloyalty

Bardo
10-03-2009, 12:29 PM
Alright, so what I have seen for a lot of UGw shells is the following for creatures:

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Sower of Temptation
6 xxx[/B]


That 6 xxx would include 3-4 Qasali Pridemage.

After 15 or so games w/ UGbw (black for Bob in the main and Thoughtseize in the side; white for Pridemage and StP in the main), I cut back to U/g/w to have more consistent mana. This is what I'm testing now, seems really good. It still runs after the mana is hit with both a Stifle and Wasteland, unlike the 4c version which just folded--since it's less reliant on its duals to cast spells.

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Divining Top

4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
3 Spell Snare
3 Daze

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

Sideboard:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Meddling Mage
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus

The U/G fetch is much loved here. I like the 19th land, because you really want to have 3 mana open on turn 3/4 (depending on Daze) and because Top demands a lot of mana. 2x Sower can substitute for the War Monks. Depends on your meta. Against certain decks (like Zoo, burn and Goyf Sligh -- which are popular here in Portland), War Monk wins games, janky as it seems.

For those who want to give U/g/w a spin, try this.

Edit - @ Gamegeek2 - If you're meta is swarmed with Merfolk, run those Firespout in the main (moving EE to the board). It's a freaking house vs. Tribal Aggro-control.

jazzykat
10-03-2009, 01:22 PM
@Bardo: I'm diggin your latest. How is the clique working for you? Could it be something else like shackles, trinket mage, rafiq??? I realize it's a cool card but might we be served better with something that doesn't eat it to every removal spell in the format?

Bardo
10-03-2009, 01:44 PM
@Bardo: I'm diggin your latest. How is the clique working for you? Could it be something else like shackles, trinket mage, rafiq??? I realize it's a cool card but might we be served better with something that doesn't eat it to every removal spell in the format?

Clique is still flexible--not 100% sold yet. I like him because he flies, costs 3 (for the curve and CB), has flash and has a built-in Peak+bonus built in. Honestly though, since I don't own real versions, so I have Mystic Enforcers subbing for the Cliques in my IRL deck at the moment. (Incidentally, Enforcer is too slow for my taste--since he basically costs 5 with a Top in play) Shackles is too slow (5 mana removal--I think threads would be better); Trinket Mage has only one target in the main and is just a 2/2 body for 3 mana; Rafiq is totally win-more and off the curve (maybe if he was a 2/2 for UGW). Coatl may also be on the short-list, but the deck doesn't need any more non-evasive fat.

gamegeek2
10-03-2009, 01:57 PM
Fire//Ice is more flexible and isn't COMPLETELY dead in certain matchups. I'm loving EE, and it's saved my butt more than a few times against things like Landstill. Not to mention there's a maindeck Academy Ruins.

DragoFireheart
10-03-2009, 11:08 PM
Bardo, what are your feelings on Trygon Predator?

Patrick
10-03-2009, 11:40 PM
Anyone tryed Cataclysm?

We can play around 1 artifact (top) 1 enchant (cb) 1 creature (normally tarmagoyf) and one land. That spell crushes stax, enchantress, control and tribal decks. It's worth testing? I mean in the Ugw cb .

I feel this went unnoticed.

Cataclysm puts the CB deck in a very unstable position.

Also, it doesn't crush Stax. Stax keeps a 2 mana land, plus a plains from Flagstones, Crucible, Magus and Prison/Moat. More than enough to keep Counterbalance from doing anything the rest of the game. You have to pay 1 to keep your Goyf alive, he can't attack and now you're under a Wastelock. Hopefully you'll remember this if you play Cataclysm in a tournament and see Stax.

Bardo
10-04-2009, 12:13 AM
Bardo, what are your feelings on Trygon Predator?

He's hard to evaluate--sometimes he's a flying 2/2 for three (a really shitty Gaea's Skyfolk); other times, he owns face (vs. Stax, mirror, hitting random shit your opponent was counting on). In my mind, he competes with VClique for the same slot and it can go either way.

In Clique's favor, it doesn't demand a main phase commitment of mana, can be played off UUW or UUG, hits for an extra point, gives you critical strategic information and interact with your opponent's hand (which only black-splash CB can do). For this reason, the little fucker can get in for 6-12 damage.

Predator hits for less, sits at a good place in the curve and again, sometimes suffers from the Gaea's Skyfolk problem -- but can be an extraordinary nuisance for your opponent too.

I'm going to hedge my bets and just say, "consider your metagame." :)

In an open, dunno what the fuck you're going to face metagame, I think Clique is a little better and Predators wants to be a sideboard card, but then it's competing with Grip, which is more reliable for the job it does.

jazzykat
10-04-2009, 01:17 AM
In the clique spot I'm going to try threads. There is very little combo in my meta and there are always canadian thresh/dreadstill/bob's etc. Grabbing 1 of those and keeping them for a turn or 2 even is very game changing.

Madmaniac21
10-04-2009, 07:26 PM
Not that I want to stop people from playing him ... but why are people still playing Sower?

"If you already have CB in play ..."

I keep hearing that's the reason he's good. As far as I'm concerned, if I have the CB/top lock in place, the rest is just a formality until I win. Anything better to be said for him?

DragoFireheart
10-04-2009, 07:31 PM
Not that I want to stop people from playing him ... but why are people still playing Sower?

"If you already have CB in play ..."

I keep hearing that's the reason he's good. As far as I'm concerned, if I have the CB/top lock in place, the rest is just a formality until I win. Anything better to be said for him?

He takes a creature? A must kill creature?

If you use your removal on my Goyfs and other creatures and I play a Sower, that's a massive swing in game state.

But yes, I do agree he seems like a "win-more" card and not having him wouldn't cripple the deck. More of a preference really.

Madmaniac21
10-04-2009, 07:50 PM
He takes a creature? A must kill creature?

If you use your removal on my Goyfs and other creatures and I play a Sower, that's a massive swing in game state.

But yes, I do agree he seems like a "win-more" card and not having him wouldn't cripple the deck. More of a preference really.

I'm thinking more about his effects. Why do people use him in some lists over say, shackles? Or even Control magic?

DragoFireheart
10-04-2009, 07:52 PM
I'm thinking more about his effects. Why do people use him in some lists over say, shackles? Or even Control magic?


Cause he can beat face in matchups where Control Magic would be a dead draw (ANT, Burn, Landstill).

Bardo
10-04-2009, 11:27 PM
I played my list above in a small (8-10) person tournament and got "2nd" -- though there were so few people so this post shouldn't count for much.

List:

Same as above (post #428), except:
-1 Vendilion Clique
+1 War Monk

-4 Misty Rainforest (Didn't own any at the time)
+2 Windswept Heath
+1 Polluted Delta
+1 Scalding Tarn

Otherwise, same list card for card.

Round 1 vs. Janky Milling Deck

Not much to say here: his mill effects have the effect of powering up huge Goyfs, which supported by Pridemage and CounterTop are more than enough to get the job done.

Round 2 vs. Dredge

Game 1, Turn 1, my opponent drops an LED (no Force from me) and proceeds to go nuts . I throw in the towel on T3 facing an army of 2/2 zombies. I do the math and move to G2.

Out: -4 Counterbalance, -3 Spell Snare, -1 Clique; In: All of my Relics, Crypts, Magi.

Game 2, Very close. In the end, Relic prevents the dredge shenanigans, I survive the zombie assault, rebuild and win this game with a War Monk, Goyf, Pridemage and Meddling Mage on "Breakthrough."

Game 3, Textbook. I StP his turn 1 Putrid Imp, drop a Relic the next turn, empty the graveyards when the time is right and beat face with a smallish Goyf (3/4) and Meddling Mage. It was a bit more complex than this, but I took no notes.

Really good games.

Turn 3. Jak beats my ass playing Bant Survival. Not sure what I should have done differently. Our decks seemed evenly positioned, but he did a better job of rebuilding. Plus: flyers.

Oh, Rafiq + RWM + double Exalter triggers = Awesome. A gigantic beating.

About my CT list: solid. I got in ~ 10 games vs. Zoo the previous night + a bunch of games vs. Affinity and Landstill and it list played superbly. The basic lands (replacing the black splash) made the gears run just right and I wouldn't change anything for now.

The singleton Clique was never around when it would have mattered. No opinion there.

To close this out, I got enough store credit for a half-price Mystic Rainforest and won a foil Ajani Vengeant for reasons that aren't exactly clear.

Lastly, that Bant Survival deck is really good.

Hanni
10-05-2009, 12:31 AM
U/W/g CounterTop

Lands (19)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

Creatures (10)
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Spells (30)
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Oblivion Ring

The general direction is basically the same as everyone elses, with just a few differences.

First of all, I really like Elspeth. Its ability to just win games is really good. This deck lacks the proper sweepers like Landstill, but replace it with it's ability to block with Tarmogoyfs. Once it comes down, it acts as solid anti-aggro by creating chump blocks if it needs to, while the deck draws into the other answers it needs to change the game around. It allows Qasali's and Goyf's to swing overhead for huge chunks, effectively ending the game within just a few turns, especially against Goyf stalls. The evasion alone has won games for me, especially in the games where my opponent has the ground stalled but is low enough on life where one swing with Goyf ends it right there.

On it's own, Elspeth can be game ending. Essentially being a 4/4 flyer might not be its greatest use, but if the opponent cannot answer it, that's not a bad clock. It's ability to just shut opponent's completely down, if the game gets to the point where you use its ultimate, makes for some seriously disgusting stuff. The fact that so few decks run an answer for Planeswalker's, aside from attacking with creatures, makes it difficult to answer.

I've only mildly tested it, but it seemed very good when I did. I'm not claiming this to be better than what others are running, but I think it definitely deserves mentioning. It's probably less effective in heavy aggro metagames without a red splash for Firespout, but I suppose the deck could put 2+ Wrath of God's in the board for heavy aggro matchups.

Secondly, I don't see anyone running Oblivion Ring. I really like the utility that O Ring adds. It answers anything you need it to, whether it needs to be creature removal, remove planeswalkers, whatever. Adding to the 3cc curve is always nice, and having an answer for any resolved non-land permanent adds security. It's vulnerability to enchantment removal does make it somewhat lackluster, but if my opponent is doing so, I am drawing my opponent's removal away from my Counterbalances or creatures (if it's multi-purpose removal), so it doesn't seem that bad. The extra removal makes running Elspeth a little better, so I think it works well for my build.

Anyway, I need to go to bed, so I can't detail it too much more than that. Again, I'm not coming on here saying that this is the best direction to go, but I think it's rather interesting and I didn't see anyone with this approach yet. Thoughts?

chokin
10-05-2009, 02:58 AM
That seems like a pretty nice list, Hanni. The ORings provide a little extra removal, which can be a blessing against aggro decks. I've been wanting to try Elspeth in a CounterTop shell, but haven't really been able to test it. I imagine sending a flying Goyf in can be pretty nuts.

The only thing I'd like to see is the inclusion of RWM. He is a house with Elspeth. Maybe swapping 2 ORing and a QP for 3 RWM would work?

Jak
10-05-2009, 03:25 AM
-2 Polluted Delta
-2 Windswept Heath
+4 Flooded Strand

I also agree on cutting 2 Rings and a Pridemage for War Monks or maybe even Clique.

jazzykat
10-05-2009, 03:38 AM
I've done some testing with Bardo's list as his design decisions and deck/card preferences are often in line with my own. I have some general observations regarding this archetype at this time which are directed at a Uwg build but not at Bardo's in particular.

Tempo Thresh still pounded me with Mongeese and disrupted my mana production for just long enough to burn me out. It wasn't so much that they mana screwed me as they didn't let me get to a green source in time.

Also, getting a cb to stick is very tough in the face of their LD. We both have spell snare, daze (which is a lot better than our daze), and FOW. The problem comes that our spell snare does nothing to resolve CB, and we are often very succeptible to their daze as well as spell snare...

Pridemages require double off color mana to drop. Which means either not having double U up early to drop CB or exposing yourself to the the wastelands and stifle party on your duals. They only need to knock out the green (except for the 2 of clique (if you play them) but that dies like a champ to fire/ice, bolt....) to cut you from all of your creatures in the DECK which by itself isn't unusual but getting white hit knocks out all but 4/6(clique) creatures as well.

I considered O-Ring and before I ran that I would play engineered explosives or PtE. O-ring is normally played as creature removal. With the amount of Qasali Pridemages in the meta now it is way worse than it used to be. It also almost always costs more than the creature you are putting the kabosh on. Given that it is not always a permanent solution and I can't accept it.

I realize this next point depends on how much LD your opponent has but I don't think that a deck should play 4 ponder, 4 BS, and 3 tops, and have 19 colored "land" that are all meant to be used as mana (i.e. not wasteland, and not factory, etc.).

With so many cantrips and so much land, I often felt like I was digging to not find land or a cantrip. I also think that in a deck without trinket mage that top should be a 4 of, given that it can be cycled away with a fetch and opponents seem to have gotten wise that top lets you stomp them so they are occaisionally destroying them.

I am willing to accept the critique that I'm doing it wrong, but I've played a lot of counter top in the past. I would like to know how others have gotten this deck to succeed.

dr.knockers
10-05-2009, 05:54 AM
i played a tournament with this list;

4 rhox war monk
4 tarmogoyf
2 trygon predator

4 counterbalance
4 daze
4 fow

4 top
4 brainstorm
3 ponder

3 firespout
4 stp

20 land ( 8 fetch, 1 island, 4 trops, 4 tundra, 3 volcanic)

I went 3-3, but mainly because of 2 very bad match ups (intuition thresh) and final round i lost because of some major play errors. Furthermore i had not tested the deck and played with it the first time.

But i can tell you; this deck rules. With more testing and practicing i am sure i can get more out of this deck. The firespouts are very good, as are the rhox war monks. I think this is the best 4 c build atm.

Ch@os
10-05-2009, 06:33 AM
Right, the only thing to complain is the high cc3 count.
By replacing Predator with Pridemage you can lower the courve but Predator actually wins me games against some CB/top piles or affinity or even some games by his ability to fly.

jeanbathez
10-05-2009, 06:49 AM
Right, the only thing to complain is the high cc3 count.
By replacing Predator with Pridemage you can lower the courve but Predator actually wins me games against some CB/top piles or affinity or even some games by his ability to fly.

And pridemage doesn't go very well with firespout or isn't that a problem ?

I'am also not sure which Version i should take the 4 C Version with red (japanese list) i call it like sasou "Supreme Blue" or the version with u/g/w or which wasn't discussed until yet, what do you think of the version placed 5th in the same event from Tatsuo Sekimoto (4 C with black) :

Mainboard:

1 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
2 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
2 Trinket Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Island
4 Flooded Strand

Sideboard:

2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Meddling Mage
2 Path to Exile

It plays Trinket mage and 4 basic Islands !

dr.knockers
10-05-2009, 06:52 AM
[QUOTE=jeanbathez;388827]
And pridemage doesn't go very well with firespout or isn't that a problem ? QUOTE]

That's the problem of pridemage. I considered is but pridemage just isn't good in combination with spout. The predator could be cut out, but what should i play instead? I want it to be a threat prefarable with 2 cc. On the other hand; the whole tournament i didn't have a problem getting a 2 cc on top with cb out. You still have brainstorm.

Skeggi
10-05-2009, 07:56 AM
I run Jotun Grunts instead of Trygon Predators. He sets a nice clock and is a real Goyfkiller. Had to scoop once against Landstill when he dropped a Moat though.

Poron
10-05-2009, 08:09 AM
in my opinion the best cc curve for a good CounterTop deck is:

cc1 10
cc2 10
cc3 10
cc4 6
cc5 4

My list is something similar to that:

4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Div Top
1 Meekstone (TEEEECH)
1 Eng Explosives (good for Chalices, Moxes and troublesome casual 1cc)
1 Pithing Needle

4 Counterbalance
4 Daze
4 Counterspell

4 Trinket Mage
3 Propaganda
3 Vedalken Shackles

4 Cryptic Command

4 Force of Will

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 The Tabernacle at Pendrell's Vale
11 Islands

this deck just works quite well, if you have some advice to improve it..

Skeggi
10-05-2009, 08:32 AM
You run 17 lands and have about the most mana intensive CounterTop deck I've ever seen. And you say it works well? I have a hard time believing that. Also, shouldn't this deck run Back to Basics maindeck instead of Propaganda?

undone
10-05-2009, 08:37 AM
Im sure its been discussed before but what does every one think of hoofprints of the stag ? It seems like that card would be one of the most removal resiliant threats we could reasonably play. Its great because of brainstorm/poping top. It generates a TON of CA really fast and if it draws a grip away from CB/top all the better. It also pumps goyf by being tribal :tongue:

DragoFireheart
10-05-2009, 09:12 AM
Hanni, your list looks like a bastard child between Landstill and CounterTop.

I'm not so sure about the O-Rings, since the rampant Zoo decks will get rid of it with ease.

However, what I'm really curious about is Elspeth, Knight-Errant. Have you ever had problems protecting her?

bokepa
10-05-2009, 10:41 AM
I really like the planeswalker version, this is what i would run.

U/W/g CounterTop

Lands (19)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

Creatures (12)
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox war Monk
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Spells (29)
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
3 Daze
2 Sword Of Fire and Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Oblivion Ring

CC 1: 14
CC 2: 14
CC 3: 7
CC 4: 2
CC 5: 4

Not sure about O-rings, maybe:
-2 islands +2 Volcanic
-2 Oring +2 Firespout
And a SB with Red elemental blast.
or just replace Orings with Trygon Predator's.

SoFi has been slow vs other countertop lists but it shines more than jitte vs gobos and merfolk, and theres a lot of them in my meta.

bokepa
10-05-2009, 10:50 AM
Im sure its been discussed before but what does every one think of hoofprints of the stag ? It seems like that card would be one of the most removal resiliant threats we could reasonably play. Its great because of brainstorm/poping top. It generates a TON of CA really fast and if it draws a grip away from CB/top all the better. It also pumps goyf by being tribal :tongue:

The problem is what you remove to include Hoofprints? Qasali/ Trygon are used to remove enc/art. Rhox war monk is an inmediate answer vs agroo and goyf its a wall vs agroo and a the best imediate threat.

The problem with hoofprints is that it does nothing for 2-4 turns. And when you are able to get the flying tokens its usually too late. This deck needs a big creature out fast vs agroo cannot affort to wait so much.

With that being said, its nuts vs control for the reasons you said.

undone
10-05-2009, 11:47 AM
The problem is what you remove to include Hoofprints? Qasali/ Trygon are used to remove enc/art. Rhox war monk is an inmediate answer vs agroo and goyf its a wall vs agroo and a the best imediate threat.

The problem with hoofprints is that it does nothing for 2-4 turns. And when you are able to get the flying tokens its usually too late. This deck needs a big creature out fast vs agroo cannot affort to wait so much.

With that being said, its nuts vs control for the reasons you said.

Right its bonkers in the control and mirrors single handedly wins goyf stalls, and puts enormus pressure on the opponent (sometimes you can activate it the turn after you play it using brainstorm as a 4/4 is pretty hot) It also kills opponents as fast as goyf or faster in the late game with 2 tops. In the aggro matchup it isnt like the card is blank, if you play it, daze the 2 drop and take 3, you now have put a massive clock on them that reads "Kill me or hoofprints or I will cantrip into 4/4s which you cant deal with" zoo has a real big problem with lots of x/4s or bigger goyf already has 4 path to exiles targeted at his head so what do the 4/4s eat? burn probably.

The card is very strong in the mirror, and control matchups, infact on turn 2/3 this card beats a turn 2/3 counterbalance all day because it even defends itself vs predator (4/4>2/3)

bokepa
10-05-2009, 12:11 PM
Right its bonkers in the control and mirrors single handedly wins goyf stalls, and puts enormus pressure on the opponent (sometimes you can activate it the turn after you play it using brainstorm as a 4/4 is pretty hot) It also kills opponents as fast as goyf or faster in the late game with 2 tops. In the aggro matchup it isnt like the card is blank, if you play it, daze the 2 drop and take 3, you now have put a massive clock on them that reads "Kill me or hoofprints or I will cantrip into 4/4s which you cant deal with" zoo has a real big problem with lots of x/4s or bigger goyf already has 4 path to exiles targeted at his head so what do the 4/4s eat? burn probably.

The card is very strong in the mirror, and control matchups, infact on turn 2/3 this card beats a turn 2/3 counterbalance all day because it even defends itself vs predator (4/4>2/3)

vs Zoo Qasali will kill it without effort after punching you for 3-5 dmg making they goyfs bigger and giving grim some food, merfolk dont' care about 4/4 couse they will swim from your lands to your face and goblins will connect and explode before you can put a charge counter on it.

The card is good vs MUC, maybe Pox if you are able to get 3 lands, landstill. But its very bad at zoo, merfolk, goblins, bant survival.

And the biggest problem is what does it replace? Try it but it didnt convinced me.

I've tried playing 2 in MD and i got rid of em couse they didn't matter in anygame, they only shine IF you have top, IF you have brainstorm, if you win tempo with counters. However, What about when you need to change board state just NOW?. Lorescale coalt is also nuts if you got all those condicionants xD

Maybe a UGW drawing maching deck is a posible house for Lorescale coalt and Hoofprints of stag, but these cards are not very good in Contertop right now.

If you want a realible threat, removal prof, that also grows tarmos, try Elspeth. He also makes 4/4 flying tokens, only cost 4 mana once and not 2 + 3 for each token. He will always need only 2 turns to make a 4/4 and it can instantly make a chump blocker.

Hanni
10-05-2009, 02:15 PM
That seems like a pretty nice list, Hanni. The ORings provide a little extra removal, which can be a blessing against aggro decks. I've been wanting to try Elspeth in a CounterTop shell, but haven't really been able to test it. I imagine sending a flying Goyf in can be pretty nuts.

The only thing I'd like to see is the inclusion of RWM. He is a house with Elspeth. Maybe swapping 2 ORing and a QP for 3 RWM would work?

I chose O Ring for now simply because it has the ability to answer everything. In heavy aggro metagames, I'm sure Path to Exile would be far superior in that spot. Either way, I think it's safer to run O Ring somewhere in the 75 than none at all, and I'd probably include 2 Wrath of God in my sideboard for swarm aggro like Goblins and Zoo.

How is RWM a house with Elspeth? He's got a 3/4 body, and life gain doesn't save Elspeth. Lorescale Coatl would make more sense in that regard, since he can become a huge wall. RWM might be a house himself against small swarm aggro, but I don't see fantastic synergy between him and Elspeth. Not saying it wouldn't be a good card to run, but I don't see how it makes Elspeth better.


-2 Polluted Delta
-2 Windswept Heath
+4 Flooded Strand

I also agree on cutting 2 Rings and a Pridemage for War Monks or maybe even Clique.

Yea, that manabase makes sense. I wasn't really thinking about the manabase when I built the deck up.

If I was going to cut O Rings, I'd want Path to Exile. Running Elspeth makes running more removal important. Goyf is great on defense because of his size. Clique is worthless on defense, and RWM is only good against smaller aggro. Path to Exile is great against the same decks RWM is great against.


I considered O-Ring and before I ran that I would play engineered explosives or PtE.

Good alternatives.

EDIT: The 4 O Rings can be whatever removal would work best, I've not significantly tested O Rings in Threshold like I have in Landstill. Some combination of O Ring, Path to Exile, and Engineered Explosives could be used. Those 4 slots should be removal; 8 removal spells with Elspeth is good. Which removal spells those should be deserve testing. I'm a bit partial to the O Rings for the MD, with Path's and WoG SB, but that's just my line of thinking for right now. When I get a bit to test around, I'll see what works better.

Jak
10-05-2009, 09:26 PM
What about Cunning Wish in the Oblivion Ring slot? More versatility, but takes a bit more time and mana.

4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Academy Ruins

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Elspeth

4 Brainstorm
4 Top
3 Cunning Wish
2 Fact or Fiction

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Counterbalance

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 EE
2 Vedalken Shackles

SB
4 Path to Exile
3 Krosan Grip
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Wing Shards
1 Counterspell
3 Rhox War Monk

I don't know what I would cut from the MD. Probably trim a Clique, a Shackles, and cut both EE? Cunning Wish seems like it could be very good. Just some food for thought.

lorddotm
10-05-2009, 09:45 PM
What about Cunning Wish in the Oblivion Ring slot? More versatility, but takes a bit more time and mana.

4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Academy Ruins

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Elspeth

4 Brainstorm
4 Top
3 Cunning Wish
2 Fact or Fiction

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Counterbalance

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 EE
2 Vedalken Shackles

SB
4 Path to Exile
3 Krosan Grip
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Wing Shards
1 Counterspell
3 Rhox War Monk

I don't know what I would cut from the MD. Probably trim a Clique, a Shackles, and cut both EE? Cunning Wish seems like it could be very good. Just some food for thought.

I'd probably cut down on the FoF, a Clique, and add Humility or Wrath of God.

Jak
10-05-2009, 10:00 PM
I'd probably cut down on the FoF, a Clique, and add Humility or Wrath of God.

Wrath as a two of would be pretty sweet. I am not sure on the mana yet because that would up it to six 4cc cards. I don't like that at all.

61 Cards

4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins / Tropical Island

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Elspeth

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance

4 Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
2 Fact or Fiction

4 Swords
2 Vedalken Shackles

SB
4 Path to Exile
3 Krosan Grip
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Wing Shards
1 Counterspell
3 Rhox War Monk

Curve
1: 15
2: 11
3: 7
4: 4
5: 4

Maybe -2 FoF, +2 WoG would work. Also, sorry for all the lists but I feel it's easier for people to read than -w, -x, -y, +z.

chokin
10-05-2009, 11:27 PM
@Jak - I'd cut it down to 60. Probably drop one of the FoF.

@Hanni - Uhh, he's a house because he swings for 6 and gains you 6 life. That's a significant chunk out of your opponents life. Elspeth makes him better. And Path to Exile doesn't stop Zoo from burning you. At least RWM negates some of it, eats 2 burn or one PTE/STP.

Hanni
10-06-2009, 12:08 AM
@Hanni - Uhh, he's a house because he swings for 6 and gains you 6 life. That's a significant chunk out of your opponents life. Elspeth makes him better. And Path to Exile doesn't stop Zoo from burning you. At least RWM negates some of it, eats 2 burn or one PTE/STP.

Oh okay, I see your point. My only problem with that is, if you use Elspeth's second ability, you don't have RWM to block, and if they had a few guys they were holding back because RWM could block, they'll swing in and kill your Elspeth. That was my line of thinking in that case, but if your clearing the board and have Elspeth out, you're going to win regardless of RWM or not.

---

While I think you're overdoing it on the Landstill blend, Jak, I like your approach. Basically, hybridizing the deck with Landstill more.

This makes me think that the better approach for my deck would be -2 Oblivion Ring, +2 Wrath of God. The deck cuts down hard on 3cc drops, so that part of the Counterbalance curve gets weakened, but picks up on the 4cc spot, which does actually improve some matchups. 2 WoG maindeck is actually rather sick, since Qasali often sac's to destroy artifacts/enchantments, overall the deck is threat light in comparison to other decks (+CA), a lone Tarmogoyf cast after a WoG can end games, WoG is just a house regardless, and WoG + Elspeth wins games. That seems absolutely sick, IMO.

U/W/g Plansewalker CounterTop
Kaezurthresh

Lands (19)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

Creatures (10)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridgemage

Spells (31)
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Jace Beleren
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Wrath of God

Sideboard (15)
1 Wrath of God
4 Path to Exile
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Meddling Mage
2 Krosan Grip

Funny part is, that's the same removal package maindeck that I run in my U/W Counterbalance Landstill list, except this has 1 less WoG. I'm hoping with 7 cantrips and 4 Top's, that the 19 land manabase is able to support 4 4cc spells in the maindeck. Only time will tell. The deck seems like it would be disgusting, though. Improved aggro matchups, while at the same time, improved on everything else too. Especially postboard. At least in theory. The 4cc stuff may be just a little too slow against the manabase aggression from decks like Canadian Thresh and Merfolk, but I'd really like to test it to find out. Anyone up for a few games on MWS?

Damnosus
10-06-2009, 12:20 AM
@Hanni: I am actually kinda digging your decklist-please keep me informed as to how your testing goes (I would test it myself but I have no one to play with and I own a mac so no MWS for me :frown: ). Since you are moving towards a higher curve, you might want to consider spell snare over daze: you are more reliant on hitting land drops so daze might be hurting you a bit. Spell snare is nice too, because although it screws with your CB curve, it hits what your CB can't.

Just a thought.

Hanni
10-06-2009, 12:35 AM
I wouldn't cut Daze. Daze is crucial for resolving spells through, like an early Counterbalance, where Spell Snare isn't going to help. Hell, it even helps you resolve a WoG on turn 4 through an opponent's countermagic, if they are tapped out. Just seems like a bad move to cut Daze in a deck like this, especially since you won't have the U open to Snare when you truly need to. Spell Snare is a great card, but I think that this deck opts to play more removal in place of it; I don't see Spell Snare as a replacement for Daze, but rather as a replacement for something like Oblivion Ring. Since O Ring works better with Elspeth, I think that's the better route for me to go.

On a sidenote... would dropping 1 Ponder for 1 Jace be a good idea? This deck has it's ways of protecting Planeswalker's, 4/2/4 Brainstorm/Ponder/Top is probably sufficient, and 1 Jace would give the deck a pretty nice random draw engine. Plus, Jace can destract damage away from Elspeth, or vice versa. The only problem I see is that it's moving the curve too far up, which is probably going to cause manabase problems with only 19 lands. Thoughts on that? (Well, thoughts on the entire idea of board control CounterTop, but also about Jace too.)

Damnosus
10-06-2009, 12:47 AM
@Hanni: yea I guess you are right on the daze-you will just have to use it differently than what I initially had in mind.

Jace might be an interesting idea-the deck is lacking the pure card advantage that standstill gives so he might be a fantastic. Either that or shackles?

Jak
10-06-2009, 12:49 AM
Oh okay, I see your point. My only problem with that is, if you use Elspeth's second ability, you don't have RWM to block, and if they had a few guys they were holding back because RWM could block, they'll swing in and kill your Elspeth. That was my line of thinking in that case, but if your clearing the board and have Elspeth out, you're going to win regardless of RWM or not.

---

While I think you're overdoing it on the Landstill blend, Jak, I like your approach. Basically, hybridizing the deck with Landstill more.

This makes me think that the better approach for my deck would be -2 Oblivion Ring, +2 Wrath of God. The deck cuts down hard on 3cc drops, so that part of the Counterbalance curve gets weakened, but picks up on the 4cc drop spot, which does actually improve some matchups. 2 WoG maindeck is actually rather sick, since Qasali often sac's to destroy artifacts/enchantments, overall the deck is threat light in comparison to other decks, and WoG is just a house. With Elspeth MD, that looks absolutely sick.

U/W/g CounterTop
Kaezurthresh

Lands (19)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

Creatures (10)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridgemage

Spells (31)
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Wrath of God

Sideboard (15)
1 Wrath of God
4 Path to Exile
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Meddling Mage
2 Krosan Grip

Funny part is, that's the same removal package maindeck that I run in my U/W Counterbalance Landstill list, except it has 1 less WoG. I'm hoping with 7 cantrips and 4 Top's, that the 19 land manabase is able to support 4 4cc spells in the maindeck. Only time will tell. The deck seems like it would be disgusting, though. Improved aggro matchups, while at the same time, improved on everything else too. Especially postboard. At least in theory. The 4cc stuff may be just a little too slow against the manabase aggression from decks like Canadian Thresh and Merfolk, but I'd really like to test it to find out. Anyone up for a few games on MWS?

The only problem I see with your list is that you can't capitalize on the tempo you gain from Daze. You run 8 creatures with 4 of those being quite weak on their own. The opponent can recover fine from it while you now set yourself back and can't cast Elsepth or Wrath until turn 5.

Hanni
10-06-2009, 12:57 AM
The only problem I see with your list is that you can't capitalize on the tempo you gain from Daze. You run 8 creatures with 4 of those being quite weak on their own. The opponent can recover fine from it while you now set yourself back and can't cast Elsepth or Wrath until turn 5.

I agree with the counterpoints of running Daze.

My line of thinking right now is that it's a necessary evil. As primarily an aggro/control deck, we really want the early tempo of Daze when casting stuff like Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance. It helps to resolve stuff early on, or keep problematic stuff off the table early on.

Since this deck only runs 4 4cc spells and isn't reliant on resolving those type of spells asap (i.e turn 4) like Landstill is, I think being set back a turn by Daze should be alright. However, the only way to truly find that out is to test the deck.

I really do like the concept of this build, though. CounterTop Board Control seems right up my alley, since U/W Counterbalance Landstill is my favorite deck.

Bardo
10-06-2009, 12:58 AM
In testing ~40 games w/ CT in the past week (against real opponents and not), I've been pretty unimpressed with Daze--which is odd, because it's one of my favorite MtG cards, period.

The thing is that Daze is a perfect tempo/aggro-control card and a bit out of place (for many reasons) in a control shell where the iterations of CT that having been piling up in this thread often straddle the line between aggro-control and control.

So Daze is a bit of a kind of schizophrenic card that pulls the deck one way or other. This said, I don't think Daze belongs in a deck with Elspeth, but it's hard to say these days. Hybridization makes black and white card analysis kinda passe.

Hanni
10-06-2009, 01:03 AM
In testing ~40 games w/ CT in the past week (against real opponents and not), I've been pretty unimpressed with Daze--which is odd, because it's one of my favorite MtG cards, period.

The thing is that Daze is a perfect tempo/aggro-control card and a bit out of place (for many reasons) in a control shell where the iterations of CT that having been piling up in this thread often straddle the line between aggro-control and control.

So Daze is a bit of a kind of schizophrenic card that pulls the deck one way or other. This said, I don't think Daze belongs in a deck with Elspeth, but it's hard to say these days. Hybridization makes black and white card analysis kinda passe.

I agree with this too, but I still think it's a necessary evil. I mean, we clearly need more countermagic protection than just FoW and Counterbalance. What do we run, then? Counterspell is clearly too slow, when we want to be curving out early (the reason to run Daze), and even holding open U early for Spell Snare seems so difficult with this curve (we don't run Nimble Mongoose as a 1 drop guy, we are pretty heavy in our 2cc and 4cc curve, etc).

While I agree with both Jak and Bardo, I'm just unsure of what would really be a good replacement, and whether or not the slight disynergy Daze offers to the deck is worth its offset in power.

Bardo, you were the one that recently told me that when given the choice between synergy or raw power, more often than not, raw power is better route. While I disagreed with you about that in my UGb Loam Control shell, I'm not sure if I do here; I just don't see a clear replacement for Daze.

Jak
10-06-2009, 01:06 AM
I agree with the counterpoints of running Daze.

My line of thinking right now is that it's a necessary evil. As primarily an aggro/control deck, we really want the early tempo of Daze when casting stuff like Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance. It helps to resolve stuff early on, or keep problematic stuff off the table early on.

Since this deck only runs 4 4cc spells and isn't reliant on resolving those type of spells asap (i.e turn 4) like Landstill is, I think being set back a turn by Daze should be alright. However, the only way to truly find that out is to test the deck.

I really do like the concept of this build, though. CounterTop Board Control seems right up my alley, since U/W Counterbalance Landstill is my favorite deck.

But do you need it? You are the control deck so do you need to cast your threats like Goyf early on? Maybe against stuff like aggro, but then you won't have to worry about forcing stuff through.

Clique is also awesome with hard counters that make you tap out, btw.

Hanni
10-06-2009, 01:18 AM
But do you need it? You are the control deck so do you need to cast your threats like Goyf early on? Maybe against stuff like aggro, but then you won't have to worry about forcing stuff through.

Clique is also awesome with hard counters that make you tap out, btw.

I suppose that is true. With 6 spot removal spells for aggro (StP/O Ring), 6 spot removal spells for artifacts/enchantments (Qasali/O Ring), and 2 mass sweeps for aggro, allowing early stuff to resolve and allowing my early stuff to get countered might not be such a big deal. The control aspect allows me to regain control of any early shenanigans from my opponent.

I guess it's really a matter of getting down and dirty and playtesting the hell out of the deck to figure out what would be the best route. Regardless, my question still stands: if I am to replace Daze, what is a truly suitable replacement? I think the deck still needs some protection in that spot; I'd be inclined to say Thoughtseize would be the perfect replacement if I was in black, but alas, I'm not. 4c is also not the route to go here, since 19 lands and a 4c manabase are really going to cause problems resolving 4cc spells against any kind of resistance. Spell Snare also costs 1cc, but constantly keeping U open to wait to use it seems like it may slow the deck down too much, even if it is a great tempo generator.

I'm just really unsure of the best route till I test it, and unless someone suggests something amazing, or explains to me (in detail, because I'm unconvinced right now) how Spell Snare would be the best replacement, I'm going to try Daze first.

See, that's the thing. I don't want to slow the deck down too much. Elspeth, WoG, O Ring, and possibly Jace if I run it, already slow the deck down alot. I want something that will help me maintain some speed early on, so I don't get steamrolled by decks that are too fast (like Canadian Thresh). Daze is the best way I know how to defend against something like that, but I guess Spell Snare wouldn't be so bad either. Depends on the early draw, I guess, but that probably means playing differently; waiting to cast Goyf/Qasali/Counterbalance till I have 3 land drops, for example. I guess that makes sense now. The problem is: how do I go about changing that around without messing up the Counterbalance curve a bit?

The way I'm really looking at Elspeth is as a finisher, not a turn 4 play. Elspeth to my build is kind of like Mystic Enforcer to the old white Threshold decks. What it does for me, when I do finally play it, is win me the game. Getting it down turn 4, if I'm in a position to win the game with it, sounds great. When I'm not, it's likely it may not get to come down until as late as turn 6 or even 7. Who knows. So Wrath of God is the real reason to not run Daze, because it sets me back a full turn on casting it, but as a 2-of, is that really worth not running Daze for?

However, I'm thinking that you two are right; Daze might not be the best option. I'm only running 4 4cc spells, but against aggro, resolving a WoG asap is really important.

The other thing is, how much does Daze improve/unimprove the deck when it brings in its sideboard options? Against Goblins, going kamikaze with both BEB and PtE (with StP) seems like a damn fine move, with Daze just furthering that tempo assault. Against other aggro, StP and PtE backed by Daze also seems like a great way to slow those decks down until I can establish a dominant Goyf or Counterbalance, or drop Elspeth.

Instead of going back and forth with myself, I really think that just testing it is going to yield me better results than discussing theory. You all can continue to post your opinions on the matter, as well as your suggestive replacements, and I will consider them.

---

I really don't like Clique in here. As a 3cc 3/1, it's going to be horrible on defense for protecting Elspeth, and the flying is largely a non-issue since I do run Elspeth. It's abilities are great, but are they really needed in here? I really don't think I need the aggro part of the card, and 3 mana for a psuedo discard effect seems like it would slow the deck down even further.

---

EDIT: Just FYI, I played a few test games on MWS, and the Daze thing was largely a non-issue. Dazing doesn't really matter much with Elspeth (consider that old white Threshold ran Daze alongside Mystic Enforcer), and 2 Wrath of God's is no reason to not run Daze. Honestly, it makes just as much sense to run Daze in here as it does in those versions that are heavy in 3cc spells (RWM's and Trygon's, etc). Considering that you typically Daze turns 1 and 2, they set you back the same amount of time casting those (i.e 1 turn). Now, if you want to debate on whether or not Daze is good in those versions either, is another story. However, I found myself having absolutely no problems being set back in land drops. The large number of 1cc and 2cc spells largely negated that; although it prevented me from casting O Rings, Jace, Elspeth, and WoG right away, I had plenty of other spells that I was able to play before needing to cast one of those 3cc/4cc spells. I'll test it a bit more, but for me, I'm pretty much convinced that Daze is actually correct.

Also, the 19 land manabase has been more than sufficient with 3 3cc spells and 4 4cc spells maindeck, at least against decks that don't attack the manabase. 4/2/4 Brainstorm/Ponder/Top with 19 lands, especially with the manabase being so stable, was great every game so far. I have yet to actually use Jace, but I'm thinking I'm actually going to like it when I do. It gives me a pretty cool draw engine if I get to play it, it ups my 3cc spell count just a little bit more for Counterbalance (mildly relevant), and overall seems like it has great synergy with Top (kinda like Confidant, but in this case, not to negate lifeloss, but rather to chomp through the deck). I'm going to edit the decklist I posted a few posts up to include Jace.

I'm also going to call the deck U/W/g Planeswalker CounterTop to distinguish it from the mainstream lists.

Overall, I'm very satisfied so far. Dropping Elspeth turn 4 (when I didn't Daze), with a 4/5 Tarmogoyf in play, was friggin awesome. Swing for 7, go. Elspeth going straight to 5 counters usually puts it out of destroy range for a turn (since I do run sufficient removal), and swinging for another 7 the following turn is sometimes game (turn 5 goldfish). Either way, I pushed through 14 points of damage, regardless if my opponent had chump blockers or not. Elspeth is really, really good in this shell. I hope others try it.

Plus keep in mind that with the amount of removal, Elspeth is really good as a stand-alone threat; very few times when you actually are able to drop Elspeth, will the opponent be able to recover. It's kinda the same effect it has in Landstill: if the board is clear and you drop Elspeth, the opponent has a very limited amount of time to find an answer before you simply win. Even Tarmogoyf doesn't quite have this effect. Absolutely bonkers, guys.

bokepa
10-06-2009, 06:04 AM
Hanni, how are you doing vs Zoo, Merfolks, Goblins, Bant survival?

I see your list a bit slow to fight those decks decks. Is all your removal and sweepers enough to stop them? Maybe yes vs Zoo but i dont see WoG stoping merfolks or goblins at all.

And what about Ichorid? I dont see even any hate in your SB for it.

I like the combo of tarmo + elspeth, but RWM + elspeth is still superior. 12 life for me and -12 for you!

About Daze, I prefer to always run it. Yes, its bad late game, but we always tap out turn 2 3. Having a counter backup when tapped out wins more games than drawing counters when they dont matter, especially having tops, ponders and brainstorms to prevent that.

IF the list evolves to remove cantrips and be control turn 2 3 before droping bombs, then we could replace it, but while you want to cast goyf or counterbalance or qasali early, daze is good.

With that being said, without any mana denial strategy i think the optimal run is 3 Daze MD, becouse i always lose the dice roll :P

You could try:
-1 Ponder -1 Daze
+2 Spell snare

It worked good for me when i played them. I use RWM now. (Too much red in my meta)

I haven't tested this but iif you want to try crazy things, instead of spell snare put Dauntless Escort, WoG and keeping a Goyf should be wonders. (The problem is that they use vedalken shakles on it and that it makes the list even slower i guess)

Hanni
10-06-2009, 08:34 AM
Hanni, how are you doing vs Zoo, Merfolks, Goblins, Bant survival?

I feel like my aggro matchups are pretty good, especially postboard.

The deck uses early tempo with FoW, Daze, StP, and Goyf to slow down their early assault, just like "Threshold" normally does.

The Zoo, Goblins, and Merfolk matchups are played in tempo fashion initially both preboard and postboard. You keep them off their aggro early to stabilize, and beat down with that tempo with Goyfs, Qasali's, and Elspeth's while you can. Once that plan fails, if it does, you have the backup plan of WoG to sweep away uncontrolable situations. Postboard, it's alot easier to achieve the tempo strategy, since you significantly increase the number of 1cc spot removal spells. Massing up 1/1 tokens with Elspeth while hitting them with tons of spot removal works really well. It prevents them from ever really swinging in if they do manage to get a few guys to stick, and then flying overhead with a single token clocks them before they clock you. Goyf is a great all against these decks, giving you time to find more removal while they dig for theirs (or dig for their unblockability in Merfolk's case).

---

Against Zoo, a resolved CounterTop early enough typically shuts them down if they don't have a Qasali in play prior to (in which case you'd wait to lay down CounterTop). Rather than rely on RWM's to give you additional gas later on (since you won't always see CounterTop), you use the extra removal to keep their guys off the table and smack them with Goyfs, or sit back with Goyf on defense for as long as possible while Elspeth makes a bunch of 1/1 tokens. R/g/w Naya Sligh is a different story, since they run so much burn; you really need CounterTop for that matchup. Against Zoo though, they don't have enough reach if their guys don't do enough damage. Preboard it's a decent matchup, postboard you get Path to Exile in place of Oblivion Ring, and I'd drop 2 Qasali for 2 more Path to Exile, since keeping them off of guys completely wrecks their strategy, regardless if they run Sylvan Library or bring in Jitte, and 8 1cc spot removal spells does a great job of this. Again, the excessive spot removal + massive 1/1 token plan + flying plan works really well.

---

Against Goblins, the heavy cantrip 4/2/4 Brainstorm/Ponder/Top engine, with the stable manabase of 8 fetchlands, and 4 basics, makes their manabase attack only a minor problem. Ramping to 4 lands isn't that difficult, WoG out of nowhere (they won't expect it) punishes them for overextending, and then you beat down with either a really large Goyf, drop an Elspeth to dominate the board, or both. Make sure Qasali (and O Ring) answer Vial, because Goblins strives off of its CiP abilities. Decent matchup preboard. Postboard, you drop 4 Counterbalances for 4 Blue Elemental Blast, and 2 Oblivion Rings come out for 1 Path to Exile and 1 WoG. 9 1cc spot removal spells and 3 WoG keep them off of creatures, regardless of CiP abilities or not (unless they are chaining Ringleaders, but you still have the ability to swing with Goyf and/or Elspeth during the back and forth removaling process). Again, the excessive spot removal + massive 1/1 token plan + flying plan works really well.

---

Against Merfolk, it's a little tougher. They apply pressure to the manabase, so fetching at the right time, getting basics into play, and cantripping for land correctly, is essential. If you don't stabilize the manabase early, you're going to run into serious problems. Luckily, they are a slower aggro deck than both Goblins and Zoo, so you should have time to do so.

Their ability to sneak damage through with unblockability/tapping is problematic, so make sure to try and keep the lords of the table as best as possible. It's the damage that they can sneak in from time to time that will chip away at you if you're not careful.

Keep an eye out for Standstill, this card is a must counter (or must sac for Qasali).

As long as Vial isn't in play, getting CounterTop active is really good. It shuts down most of their deck, and either buys you the time you need to find enough removal, or puts the opponent too far behind to come back once you remove enough of their guys. Have Qasali (or O Ring) answer Vial if you plan on using CounterTop, since Vial makes CounterTop limited in usefulness. As long as you draw enough removal, you'll do okay. If you don't draw enough removal, they will outclass your aggro/Elspeth.

Slightly difficult matchup preboard. Postboard, it gets alot better. You get to drop O Ring for Path to Exile. This is huge because it is alot easier to use 1cc spot removal against them. I'd also cut 1 Counterbalance and 1 Qasali, even though both of those cards are good against them, for 2 more Path to Exiles. More 1cc spot removal is going to be better than trying to assemble CounterTop (slow) or destroy Vial. Vial is less necessary to remove against Merfolk than it is against Goblins, since they lack the amazing CiP abilities. The mana ramp is only problematic if they are chaining Standstills. Most of your countermagic will battle with their countermagic (or Standstills), so your countermagic still useful even if they have Vial in play.

10 1cc spot removal spells makes killing guys through their manabase attack so much easier, gives you a greater ability to keep the opponent from sneaking damage through by keeping them off the table in the first place, and allows the deck to play the tempo role so much better. Their lack of removal and generally slower creature production makes inexpensive spot removal so good against them. 2 WoG is enough, because they will be slow to swarm early, and you won't be able to play WoG as your reset button until late if needed anyway, because of their manabase attack. Again, the excessive spot removal + massive 1/1 token plan + flying plan works really well. Goyf is exceptional on defense against them too, when they cannot sneak damage through.

---

Bant Survival is a totally different animal, since it's a very similar deck. If they resolve Survival and you cannot destroy it before they get Wonder in the yard, you're pretty much screwed. You now have no way of blocking any of their guys, making any defense strategy with Goyf and/or Elspeth impossible. The matchup basically ends up being a race between their Survival and your CounterTop. If they get an activate Survival into play before you get an active CounterTop, you more than likely lost. If you get an active CounterTop into play before they get an active Survival, you more than likely won. When neither deck sees either engine, you have the advantage by playing a more consistent version with less dead cards. If they don't have flying, Elspeth is a house. Their slower creature production (without Survival), in comparison to the other aggro strategies, makes chump blocking with 1/1's more effective. Against ground stalls, Elspeth is our bread and butter like Wonder is for them. I tend to drop the Wrath of God's for Krosan Grip's, since I gain less CA with WoG in comparison with other aggro decks, and removing Survival is mandatory.


I see your list a bit slow to fight those decks decks. Is all your removal and sweepers enough to stop them? Maybe yes vs Zoo but i dont see WoG stoping merfolks or goblins at all.

The more removal against aggro, the better. The only matchups where WoG is less than spectacular are against aggro matchups that attack the manabase, like Canadian Thresh and Merfolk, where they are still very good if you survive until the deep mid game. For those particular matchups, I keep my WoG count to 2. Against mass swarm decks like Elves and Goblins, I go up to 3 WoG. Against Zoo, I feel that 8 1cc spot removal spells and 2 WoG is sufficient since CounterTop is such a beating against them. Against Bant Survival, Krosan Grip is necessary for dealing with Survival.


And what about Ichorid? I dont see even any hate in your SB for it.


I answer Ichorid in here similar to how I answer Ichorid with U/W Counterbalance Landstill. The only matchup I'd bring graveyard hate in against is Ichorid, so running graveyard hate is narrow to one specific matchup. Rather than waste space for one matchup that I won't see very often, that's already relatively bad, I go with a more vague approach. The RFG of 4 Swords and 4 Path help me keep them off of PImps and Ichorid's, disrupting their ability to effectively discard for dredge, attack, or sac to Therapy/make tokens. Meddling Mage naming Cabal Therapy and Dread Return keeps them from sac'ing Narcomoeba's, Ichorid's, and PImp's to rape my hand/reanimate/make tokens. If they aren't making tokens, they aren't killing me. In the meanwhile, FoW, Daze, and even Counterbalance help me prevent them from using their super accelerators like LED (for LED versions), Breakthrough, etc. Goyf is a great wall for opposing Ichorid's, and if I effectively remove their guys, swings through in an attempt to kill them before they rebuild and kill me (this is much more effective for this deck than Landstill). Wrath of God has the ability to kill my own guys to blow up their Bridges, but can also handle any of their tokens that slipped through the cracks. I tend to drop 2 Elspeth, 2 Oblivion Ring, and 4 Counterbalance for 4 Path to Exile and 4 Meddling Mage. I keep Qasali in because an early Qasali prevents the opponent from swinging in with Ichorid in fear of losing their Bridges.


I like the combo of tarmo + elspeth, but RWM + elspeth is still superior. 12 life for me and -12 for you!


That would actually be +6 for me and -6 for you per swing. RWM isn't bad, but again, a 3cc 3/4 just doesn't do it for me, lifegain or not. It's rather slow for a smaller body, and life gain doesn't actually change the game state unless your trading with (killing) opposing aggro, or beating them in a life race (i.e you attacking them, you holding no blockers, them attacking you). Otherwise, if you sit back on defense and they sit back on defense, the game state isn't changing. Goyf can create this kind of ground stall too, but at least he's a 2cc 4/5 (typically) when you aren't faced in these kind of situations (i.e more effecient cost/power ratio). Again, that's just me. I recognize RWM as a good card, I just don't want to use him.


About Daze, I prefer to always run it. Yes, its bad late game, but we always tap out turn 2 3. Having a counter backup when tapped out wins more games than drawing counters when they dont matter, especially having tops, ponders and brainstorms to prevent that.


In my testing, Daze was great.


IF the list evolves to remove cantrips and be control turn 2 3 before droping bombs, then we could replace it, but while you want to cast goyf or counterbalance or qasali early, daze is good.

If I were to drop cantrips and Daze, I'd sooner play U/W Counterbalance Landstill, as it would be a superior deck.


With that being said, without any mana denial strategy i think the optimal run is 3 Daze MD, becouse i always lose the dice roll :P


Excess Daze get pitched to FoW like they always have. Daze is only truly effective in the early game, and 4 increases the likelihood of seeing them early. Like they always have, they pitch to FoW later on, or we simply cantrip/shuffle them away. They add to the 2cc curve for Counterbalance, which I appreciate. 3 could be the correct number, but I've been pleased so far.


You could try:
-1 Ponder -1 Daze
+2 Spell snare


While that does maintain a solid Counterbalance curve, I don't want to go below 4/2/4 Brainstorm/Ponder/Top with 19 lands because I run 3 3cc spells and 4 4cc spells maindeck, with a few more 3cc and 4cc stuff in the sideboard. I'm unconvinced that Spell Snare is going to be used as effectively in here as opposed to something like Tempo Thresh; my decks higher mana curve wants me to spend most of my mana sources early. Holding U open with Spell Snare, in the early game, isn't something I feel that I'm going to be able to consistently do.


It worked good for me when i played them. I use RWM now. (Too much red in my meta)


As long as you're not using a large amount of 3cc spells, you should be able to have U open a little easier than me, though even still, I think Spell Snares are better left for more lower-curved tempo-oriented decks. However, like most things, that's just my opinion and personal preference.


I haven't tested this but iif you want to try crazy things, instead of spell snare put Dauntless Escort, WoG and keeping a Goyf should be wonders. (The problem is that they use vedalken shakles on it and that it makes the list even slower i guess)

I don't have conflicts with WoG and my own creature base, because I'm not casting WoG when I don't need to. So running something that's horrible, except for in very rare situations, seems suboptimal. I do appreciate the off-the-wall suggestion though, since Planeswalker CounterTop is essentially an off-the-wall idea.

Happy Gilmore
10-06-2009, 06:11 PM
I genuinly feel you have some innovative ideas relating to your build Hanni, you are correct in you assesments for the most part but I wonder if you would benefit much more running a more black centric color splash rather than White. You gain both a very powerful threat: Tombstalker, and a card that I feel bridges the gap when it comes to the Daze v. Snare issue (Thoughtseize). With no wastelands I doubt a 4 color manabase will be too difficult to support. It would probably be worth it.

Bardo
10-06-2009, 06:53 PM
The Black vs. White-splash disussion is the most interesting to me right now. Without applying this analysis to the metagame, different card choices are:

Black-Splash:
* Dark Confidant
* Tombstalker
* sb: Duress (anti-combo/control)
* sb: Engineered Plague (anti-tribal-aggro-control)
- Ghastly Demise over Swords to Plowshares
? Pernicious Deed
? Planar Void

White-Splash
* Qasali Pridemage
* Rhox Warm Monk
* sb: Meddling Mage / Gattock Teeg
? Wrath of God
? Elspeth

Using my U/w/g list as a template for U/b/g

4 Brainstorm
4 Divining Top
3 Ponder

4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
3 Thoughtseize
3 Spell Snare / Daze (?)

4 Ghastly Demise

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp

Sideboard:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Duress
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus

Seems f'ing tight.

Nine times out of 10, Ghastly Demise serves the same purpose as StP and I'd rather have Duress vs. Combo than MMage. Tombstalker is a better creature than RWM and it's sort of a bumb between Pridemage and Bob.

Anusien
10-06-2009, 07:05 PM
My experiences have found that you almost never need all the additional SB hate versus combo, and you'd be better served improving other matchups in the sideboard. I'd like to have 4 Firespout in the sideboard to deal with Merfolk and I'd strongly consider sideboarding extra spot removal to deal with Tombstalker if Eva Green or Team America are in the metagame.

Aggro_zombies
10-06-2009, 07:22 PM
The Black vs. White-splash disussion is the most interesting to me right now. Without applying this analysis to the metagame...
Assuming a "perfect" metagame, of the sort one would expect from a large, GP- or SCG-style tournament, I think that the analysis settles out a bit differently. It's easy to see one thing in a vacuum, but if we assume that the biggest deck types are going to be Counterbalance Thresh, Merfolk, Zoo, and maybe Canadian Thresh or some sort of control, things look different. For example:


Black-Splash:
* Dark Confidant
* Tombstalker
* sb: Duress (anti-combo/control)
* sb: Engineered Plague (anti-tribal-aggro-control)
- Ghastly Demise over Swords to Plowshares
? Pernicious Deed
? Planar Void
In decks running lots of lords, Engineered Plague is pretty frickin useless. You basically pay three mana to negate three mana the other guy spent, but you do absolutely nothing to his team. Against a deck like Merfolk, which runs ten to twelve lords, Engineered Plague is a joke.

I've always liked Bob as a way to refill my hand in the mid- to late-game with this deck, since Counterbalance isn't a perfect lock and it helps to not run out of steam. That said, Zoo and Jitte-wielding Merfolk can dispatch Bob with ease, and he dies to Fire and Bolt out of Canadian Thresh or any number of removal spells/sweepers out of our hypothetical control deck. Pridemage at least has the option of getting rid of something dangerous or allowing your Tarmogoyfs to punch through on the ground. That said, if Bob survives for any length of time, wonderful things start to happen. YMMV.


White-Splash
* Qasali Pridemage
* Rhox Warm Monk
* sb: Meddling Mage / Gattock Teeg
? Wrath of God
? Elspeth
I'm inclined to say that RWM is a better "answer" to aggro than Engineered Plague. On the defense against Zoo, it will often completely blank two of their smaller creatures (killing one and neutralizing damage from another with lifelink). Against Merfolk, it slows the other guy's clock down (albeit not by much). Pridemage kills Vials dead, making your Counterbalances better. On the other hand, Mage and Teeg are both pretty mediocre answers to storm and Wrath is too slow when compared to Firespout, which is basically the same thing. I've never tried Elspeth in Thresh before but it sounds interesting.


Using my U/w/g list as a template for U/b/g

4 Brainstorm
4 Divining Top
3 Ponder

4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
3 Thoughtseize
3 Spell Snare / Daze (?)

4 Ghastly Demise

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp

Sideboard:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Duress
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus

Seems f'ing tight.

Nine times out of 10, Ghastly Demise serves the same purpose as StP and I'd rather have Duress vs. Combo than MMage. Tombstalker is a better creature than RWM and it's sort of a bumb between Pridemage and Bob.
Tombstalker and Demise both in the same deck seems weak, especially when you don't have any particularly efficient ways to fill the graveyard early. Let's assume you start off strong with a turn one fetch, Ponder (two cards). You play a Counterbalance on turn two, but need to throw a Force down to get it to stick (three cards). On turn four, you Brainstorm in response to a Counterbalance trigger (four cards). On turn five, you remove your graveyard from the game and stick Tombstalker. You're now incapable of killing Tarmogoyf, and you didn't stick any pressure at all for four turns. That might not be an issue in the mirror or against control, but against Zoo or Merfolk you've probably been hemorrhaging life to "The Lords Attack!" or "3/3 for one, 4/5 for two" in the meantime.

Both of those cards really want you to be running more cantrips than you have, and resolving a single Tombstalker will often turn your removal off for several turns at least. It may be a huge, evasive creature, but Elspeth can throw better guys into the air in a more relevant time frame and without requiring you to go out of your way to do anything. Plus, she's very difficult to get rid of for most decks, and will often draw some heat off of you when the opponent goes into Panic Mode ("Ach! Hans, run! It's the flying 7/8 Tarmogoyf!").

If I had to look at a non-white color to use, it would be red. Blasts for Merflok and the mirror, Firespout for aggro in general, and potentially Ajani against control seems pretty hot. And yes, I'd run four colors: Ink-Treader Thresholdilim.deck.

DragoFireheart
10-06-2009, 07:46 PM
Are Landstill and Counter-Top breeding with each other? I've seen some LS lists trying to run Counter-Top, while now seeing Counter-Top list grab some of Landstill goodies (Elspeth, Wog).

Are these decks going to merge or something?

undone
10-06-2009, 08:10 PM
Are Landstill and Counter-Top breeding with each other? I've seen some LS lists trying to run Counter-Top, while now seeing Counter-Top list grab some of Landstill goodies (Elspeth, Wog).

Are these decks going to merge or something?

Lets examine Nassifs list -4 bob -2 sower -2 trygon predator +2 WOG +4 EE +2 vendicate

looks almost like landstill without the awsome enchantments (Humility/Standstill)

They bleed because they are naturaly the same deck type with the same goal, countertop uses countertopgoyf as a crutch for the deck and landstill's crutch is its huge bombs that cost 4 mana. Both have differant weaknesses, countertop is better in combo metagames, landstill beats decks that run creatures, thats pretty much the summation of it.

DragoFireheart
10-06-2009, 08:14 PM
Lets examine Nassifs list -4 bob -2 sower -2 trygon predator +2 WOG +4 EE +2 vendicate

looks almost like landstill without the awsome enchantments (Humility/Standstill)

They bleed because they are naturaly the same deck type with the same goal, countertop uses countertopgoyf as a crutch for the deck and landstill's crutch is its huge bombs that cost 4 mana. Both have differant weaknesses, countertop is better in combo metagames, landstill beats decks that run creatures, thats pretty much the summation of it.


Would it be possible to make a deck that does the best of both Landstill and CounterTop?

CounterStill?

undone
10-06-2009, 08:16 PM
They have that its called Ubgw landstill, you play deed and wrath and crap not careing that you have CB top and goyf in the deck. Its worse than both versions of control.

DragoFireheart
10-06-2009, 08:19 PM
They have that its called Ubgw landstill, you play deed and wrath and crap not careing that you have CB top and goyf in the deck. Its worse than both versions of control.

That could probably cut out the black. I mean, Deed doesn't work well with Gofys and Counterbalances.

Jak
10-06-2009, 08:24 PM
Bardo's VoroshStill is awesome. I don't know if he has an updated list though...

undone
10-06-2009, 08:57 PM
That could probably cut out the black. I mean, Deed doesn't work well with Gofys and Counterbalances.

The real two reasons it cant work.

The cards in this deck that arent lands get swept by EE wrath and disk.

The cards that are lands dont function well enough with counterbalance + humility.

johanessen
10-06-2009, 08:57 PM
Did you meant It's The Fear?

Hanni
10-06-2009, 09:27 PM
Are Landstill and Counter-Top breeding with each other? I've seen some LS lists trying to run Counter-Top, while now seeing Counter-Top list grab some of Landstill goodies (Elspeth, Wog).

Are these decks going to merge or something?

Well, it's pretty much me making a big deal about Counterbalance Landstill in the Landstill thread (because it is a big deal), and me introducing Elspeth and WoG to CounterTop. Before I started the criss-cross, I didn't see anyone else mention anything (aside from a few players in Landstill way back when mentioning Counterbalance, like Bardo and Anti-American). The ideas are just too powerful not to combine.

undone
10-06-2009, 10:05 PM
The problem is goyf+ humility is worse than squire+ humility, because squire is on color :rolleyes:

Thats the biggest thing, humility doesnt play well with these cards and the closest deck is either its the fear or dreadstill, both are basterdized landstill decks which is in essence what your saying to make this into.

Bardo
10-06-2009, 10:12 PM
That could probably cut out the black. I mean, Deed doesn't work well with Gofys and Counterbalances.

From many, many games, this just isn't true. You can run Deed along-side Goyf and CB. I'll definitely concede that it looks like shit on paper (hypothetically, a problem), but IRL, it's just fine. It's one of those things that you need to test before you're like--"yeah, nevermind."

Found this out running Chalice + Deed in the same deck (I know, I know...).

Post #21. (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=32964.0) (You have to scroll down a ways.)

Current Vo/Rosh list:

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
3 Thoughtseize

3 Firespout
3 Doom Blade

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Mishra's Factory
8 Blue Fetch
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island

Sideboard:
4 Hydroblast
3 Pyroblast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Duress
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Planar Void

Probably should come back to U/b/g.

undone
10-06-2009, 10:32 PM
See the funny thing is I was going to go the otherway with countertop and make it more tempo lol, heres an old spod tempo countertop list with a random control win in it.

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Predict
2 Repeal
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder
3 Counterbalance
2 Hoofprints of the Stag
1 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
2 Island
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Windswept Heath
SB:
3 Jötun Grunt
4 Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip
3 Stifle
2 Armageddon

Its an old list but it could easily be retooled as countertoptempo I dont know if its good. I just feel like the format is moving away from answers to goose and that its gettings stronger as time goes on because of that. Needle does so much in the countertop mirror you get to name top/shackles as your deck is alot more streamlined for countertop. Could (and probably is) a stupid Idea but you never know it might work.

Rico Suave
10-07-2009, 01:18 AM
I'm not sure I fully understand playing 3 colors instead of 4 colors. This seems like a mixed bag to a lot of people in this thread so I wanted to bring it into the open.

What do you actually get by running 3 colors instead of 4?

Anything that screws you hard, like Magus or Blood Moon, will still screw you if you have 3 colors. Sure you can fetch some basic land, but 4 colors can do the same thing. The realistic problem is a Magus/Moon on turn 1-2 before you get your fetchlands out, in which case the only thing that would save you is being 2 color with 8+ basics.

The deck functions smoothly with 4 colors because of the existence of fetchlands in combination with the Ponder/Brainstorm/Top search. If anything, mana screw in this deck happens due to a sheer lack of land at all and not the color on those lands, meaning 3 color will still get screwed in exactly the same way as 4 color. Even still with so many ways to look at cards you can dig yourself out of a hole fairly quickly.

And by playing 4 colors instead of 3, the sheer power level of the deck rises tremendously. Sure 9 times out of 10 a random black removal spell will serve the same purpose as StP, but over the course of a tournament you're going to draw that spell dozens of times...and I'd hate to lose a match in the top8 because I was running "bad" cards that couldn't deal with, say, Bob.

Bardo
10-07-2009, 04:56 PM
I go back and forth between 3 and 4 colors every few weeks and don't think it's as simple as you make it seem. Granted, the top 2 GP Chicago decks were 4c and that is obviously a compelling reason right there.

From my own testing and tournament play, every couple of weeks I'll go up to 4c to fit in better and more powerful cards, then lose more games to color screw than I'd like and go back to 3c. Five basic lands, really stabilizes the deck, esp. one running so few lands, and it's far easier to play your spells when you want to without it having to get lucky.


What do you actually get by running 3 colors instead of 4?

Stability.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=234360#post234360

Rico Suave
10-07-2009, 10:20 PM
I go back and forth between 3 and 4 colors every few weeks and don't think it's as simple as you make it seem. Granted, the top 2 GP Chicago decks were 4c and that is obviously a compelling reason right there.

From my own testing and tournament play, every couple of weeks I'll go up to 4c to fit in better and more powerful cards, then lose more games to color screw than I'd like and go back to 3c. Five basic lands, really stabilizes the deck, esp. one running so few lands, and it's far easier to play your spells when you want to without it having to get lucky.

Stability.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=234360#post234360

I enjoyed the read. There certainly are a lack of written materials on the subject of MtG consistency in deck building, and this is partially because it's a fairly obvious concept but it has a lot of hidden variables to it which make it an enigma.

Anyway, because I'm a stickler for detail I decided to take a test of my own in a similar vein to the comparison you did with Landstill. Firstly the Landstill mana base is vastly different from a CounterTop mana base, and secondly CounterTop lists traditionally run far more cantrips and other cards that let you dig than Landstill. They are very different and deserve their own tests.

The necessary requirement to cast any spell in my deck is this: UU/b/g/w

Here is my mana base--

// Lands
3 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [B] Island
3 [B] Tropical Island
4 [B] Underground Sea

And here are relevant cards that dig for mana

4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder

I performed 25 sample hands on MWS, performing normal goldfish procedures. I took the time to cast spells as I normally would in a game. In other words I would cast Counterbalance when appropriate instead of digging with Top unnecessarily to get colors earlier and skew results. I put myself on the play each game so I would start with 7 instead of 8. Color problems are a bit easier to fix when you're on the draw anyway.

For the record, I rarely Brainstorm on turn 1. The only times I Brainstorm turn 1 are when I need to dig for Force immediately.

Here are my results. I tried to note what turns the colors were established, meaning that I had access to using them in my mainphase (they may not have been on the board, but may have been in hand or on top of library with Ponder/Top/Brainstorm manipulation, and I could have played them if I had chosen to do so). Scroll down if you just want to view a summary.

1) UU/g/b on turn 2, all colors on turn 3
2) All colors in opening hand
3) UU/g/b turn 3, all colors on turn 4 (though I didn't need the 4th color)
4) All colors in opening hand
5) All colors in opening hand
6) Mull to 6 (no land in first 7), UU/g/b on turn 2, all colors on turn 4
7) U/w and an untapped fetch on turn 2, established all colors on turn 4
8) All colors on turn 2
9) UU/b/w on turn 2, all colors on turn 4 (though I didn't need the 4th color)
10) All colors in opening hand
11) All colors on turn 2
12) All colors in opening hand
13) UU/w on turn 2, UU/w/g on turn 3, all colors on turn 4 (didn't need the 4th color anyway)
14) Mull to 6 (1 land in first 7, but no cantrips). All colors on turn 2.
15) Opening 7 has 2 black spells and no black mana, but it has 2 land, 2 Ponder and Force. UU/b on turn 2, UU/g/b on turn 3, all colors on turn 4 (though didn't need the 4th color anyway)
16) Opening 7 has 1 basic Island, Ponder, Confidant, Tarmo, CB, and 2xSower. UU/b on turn 2, I miss my turn 3 land drop entirely, I have an untapped fetch on turn 4 (I had CounterTop on board so I would abuse it in a game, but I had StP/Tarmo in hand), all colors on turn 5.
17) All colors on turn 2.
18) Mull to 5 (no land in first 7 or 6). Hand is Sea, fetchx2, CB, Sower.
19) All colors in opening hand.
20) Mull to 6 (5 land, poor business). UU/b/w on turn 2 (I have Tarmo in hand, but played Confidant anyway). All colors on turn 3.
21) Island, Trop in opening hand (Tarmo and Confidant for off-color). UU/b on turn 2, UU/b/g on turn 3, all colors on turn 4 (though I didn't need the 4th color anyway).
22) Mull to 6 (no land in first 7). All colors on turn 2.
23) UU/w/b on turn 2. All colors on turn 5 (though I didn't need the 4th color anyway).
24) UU/w on turn 2 (Confidant, Thoughtseize, StP for off-colors in hand), all colors on turn 3.
25) Trop, fetch in opening hand (StP, Thoughtseize off-color in hand). UU/b/g on turn 2 (StP, Trygon off-color in hand), all colors on turn 4 (though I spent turn 3 establishing CounterTop, and could have dug for white if necessary, though I never saw the 4th color naturally until turn 4).

Here is a quick tally of which turn the deck achieved access to all the colors:
T1-2 = 12
T3 = 3
T4 = 8
T5 = 2

One of the T5 games I had 3 colors on turn 2 and didn't need the 4th color until T5 anyway. For all intents and purposes, the deck had all the mana it needed on T2 that game but I will count it as T5 anyway (even though I could have dug T4 with Top, though it probably wouldn't have been the optimal play in-game unless I really needed the white).

One of the T5 games was an abomination where I only had UU/x on turn 2 and missed a land drop entirely on turn 3. I did however establish a CounterTop softlock on turn 2 with Force and StP back-up. =D

Only 1 of those T1-4 games involved screwing me out of a color of a card in my hand for 2 or more turns (which was then remedied on turn 4).

Every single one of those 25 games involved UU/x/x providing 3 colors on turn 2, except for 3 games where I only had UU/x on turn 2 because I played a basic Island first. I was never stuck at UU/x on turn 3 with the exception of the abomination game.

[i]By turn 2 I had 3 colors 88% of the time. By turn 3 I had 3 colors 96% of the time. By turn 3 I had access to all the colors 64% of the time. By turn 4 I had access to all colors 92% of the time. 4% of the time you will experience mana-screw due to lack of land in your draws - though this problem is not exclusive to 4 colors and rather depends on the sheer number of land you play.

Why is it this way? There are only 4 white cards in the deck, 6 green cards, and 7 black cards. The rest is blue (or Top). You will rarely draw a white, black AND green card early on with it. Most of the time you will get a spread of 2 or maybe 3 colors in your opening hand, and all you have to do is fetch the appropriate colors to cast whatever is in your hand. *shrug*

While this is not a definitive test, and maybe it's just the way I play it, but the test is pretty indicative of how the deck operates without disturbance in my experience. Stability in and of itself doesn't appear to be an issue to me though I do enjoy running 20 lands.

Stability in the face of mana denial, however, is a different matter. There are a number of things that contribute to mana denial though. Generally Wastelands alone won't do much. Wasteland recursion with Loam can be a problem, but if I can't pressure a Loam deck I'll probably lose anyway once they start the continuous Loam recursion even if I had the 3 color mana base. The only decks that really give me a run for my money in mana denial are black based with Hymns and Sinks, and generally speaking I have to say that substituting Ghastly Demise or some such spell in place of StP will also have a tremendous effect on those matches.

In conclusion it's hard to say anything in a fact basis. The amount of testing that would need to be done to arrive at any solid conclusion would be enormous, and frankly I prefer a "feel" to my mana base anyway. For me 4 colors is pretty smooth.

I do need to stress that play-style probably has a lot to do with this. I see a lot of people blow Brainstorms early and often (like on turn 1, for shame), whereas I prefer to hold on to them for notoriously long periods of time.

Mister Agent
10-07-2009, 11:45 PM
I have been testing Bardo's Voroshstill for awhile. Here is the current list I have been running lately.

// Lands
2 [MOR] Mutavault
3 [U] Underground Sea
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [B] Tropical Island
1 [A] Swamp (1)
2 [OD] Island (4)
1 [UG] Forest
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [M10] Doom Blade
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [FNM] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [ALA] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [ARC] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast

The decklist for the most part hasn't really changed that much.

I have been liking the addition of mutavaults since it's better then splashing another color for decree of justice or nantuko monastery. Also, it never hurts to have your opponent break your own standstills more often.

I am probably going to test the deck with wastelands again. Wastelands tends to be pretty good against multi-colored merfolks and RGW zoo.

The 2:2 split between maelstrom pulse and krosan grip gives me some versatility and it has been testing out rather well. Although, I am not completely set on that configuration yet but only more testing will tell.

dr.knockers
10-09-2009, 04:52 AM
In my opinion Elspeth will be one of the more welcome additions to the deck. I play the UWgr version with maindeck firespouts. Although firespout/ elspeth isn't the best combination, you still will be able to play them around each other. I especially struggle with decks like intuition thresh and landstill, because they have a way better mid/ late game position. Momentarely i play 2 trygon predators, but i am thinking about swapping them for elspeth's. A mid/ late game elspeth just win's games. What do you guys think about elspeth in the spout/ rwm build?

Ch@os
10-09-2009, 04:55 AM
I dont like Elsbeth in this slot, it feels like winmore to me like progenitus or something.

bokepa
10-09-2009, 06:50 AM
In my opinion Elspeth will be one of the more welcome additions to the deck. I play the UWgr version with maindeck firespouts. Although firespout/ elspeth isn't the best combination, you still will be able to play them around each other. I especially struggle with decks like intuition thresh and landstill, because they have a way better mid/ late game position. Momentarely i play 2 trygon predators, but i am thinking about swapping them for elspeth's. A mid/ late game elspeth just win's games. What do you guys think about elspeth in the spout/ rwm build?

You will have problems casting it vs anydeck with mana denial. The double white in the casting cost hurts a bit. I've been testing both versions UGW Planeswalker top and UGWr Firespout and still tring to mix em good togheter. The resulting list seems abit odd, splashing only red for 2 firespots insted of staying white for 2 wrath. Another weird thing im trying is Ajani Venjant in Elspeth spot. You dont get blockers but you got reach with lifegain, and able to stop 1 big threat that normally is the only one in play as you clean board with firespout.

UGW have better game vs standstill, countertop variants, stax, control builds basically thx to the versality of its removal.

UGWr have it easier vs zoo, merfolk, goblins.. agroo in general. Also goblins with Anarchy can wreck you bad in UGW.

Im not saying UGW have bad matchups vs agroo, however UGWr is stronger vs them preboard.

Maybe the next step is UGW that its sideboard transform it to UGWr.

If you dont play Qasali pridemage, stick with predator, some need of ench/art hate is needed.

Misplayer
10-09-2009, 07:46 AM
Wait, so you're saying that the deck with the weaker manabase (UGWr) has a better game against Goblins and Merfolk?

Hanni
10-09-2009, 07:58 AM
@ Rico Suave

Goldfishing consistent mana in a 4c list with Brainstorm/Ponder/Top is not the problem. Obviously when the manabase isn't being attacked, 4c is possible with such a draw package.

The problem is the mana denial you will likely face in a long round of swiss. Goblins w/ Waste/Port, Merfolk w/ and w/out Stifle, and Canadian Thresh are all prevalent archtypes. Toss some Aggro/Loam and random Stax into the mix, and you're going to see some inconsistencies. There's nothing worse than losing a game because you were locked out of a color or experienced manascrew.

I hate 4c manabases. Especially in decks that aim to be more controlling and want more lands drops, as well as access to all its colors as soon as possible. That's my personal preference though, and I don't see a significant gain in power to make up for the loss of stability. Again, preference.

@ Chaos

I fail to see how either one is win-more. If all you have is a Qasali on board against a threatening opponent, a resolved Natural Order for Progenitus will win you a game you might have lost. Fail to see how dropping an out of nowhere "Now I Win" card makes it win-more.

Same thing for Elspeth. You may be in a good position when you drop it, but that doesn't mean it's a dominant position. If you drop Elspeth here, you probably win the game. That doesn't constitute as win-more, because it was possible that the gamestate could have shifted. On the contrast, Elspeth can take a bad state and completely flip it around, which is clearly not win-more.

Explain multiple frequently occuring cases for either of these cards being win-more and then come up with multiple different scenarios where they are both still win-more then you'd have credibility. I assume you haven't even tested Elspeth in here, so spouting off "win-more" doesn't seem fair.

@ Bokepa


You will have problems casting it vs anydeck with mana denial. The double white in the casting cost hurts a bit.

With my 19 land configuration and 4/2/4 Brainstorm/Ponder/Top, I've had absolutely 0 problems casting Elspeth or Wrath of God against decks without manabase hate, ever. Against manabase hate, it just means they are coming down a few turns later than they should, but that doesn't mean they aren't coming down. The deck has reasonable answers to those decks with other spells, and they are only replacing cards like Sower and Rhox, which are also slightly restrictive cards to play. If you're concerened enough, you can always drop a Qasali for another Plains (in my list).


I've been testing both versions UGW Planeswalker top and UGWr Firespout and still tring to mix em good togheter. The resulting list seems abit odd, splashing only red for 2 firespots insted of staying white for 2 wrath. Another weird thing im trying is Ajani Venjant in Elspeth spot.

I'm skeptical about going that route. It would definitely improve Zoo, but the manabase instability doesn't seem worth the trade off against Merfolk or Goblins. Ajani + Firespout sounds solid, but stretching out to 4c seems chaotic.


You dont get blockers but you got reach with lifegain, and able to stop 1 big threat that normally is the only one in play as you clean board with firespout.

Right, but big threats are just as easily handled with Elspeth (unless it has trample/evasion). The reason why I'd stick 3c with Elspeth/WoG is for 3 reasons, a) Elspeth > Ajani against more matchups, b) WoG is more universal, and c) you only play 4 spells for the control role (2 Planeswalkers and 2 sweepers), and the stable manabase is more important for the rest of the decks shell. My personal opinion, anyway.


UGW have better game vs standstill, countertop variants, stax, control builds basically thx to the versality of its removal.

Among other matchups, yes. WoG hits lots of stuff Firespout doesn't, and Ajani is a much better win condition.


UGWr have it easier vs zoo, merfolk, goblins.. agroo in general. Also goblins with Anarchy can wreck you bad in UGW.

Against Zoo, sure. Against Merfolk and Goblins? Try the manabase out first.


Im not saying UGW have bad matchups vs agroo, however UGWr is stronger vs them preboard.

I'll agree to this, but also maintain my viewpoint that Canadian Thresh, Goblins, and Merfolk are going to randomly steal games from your vulnerable manabase. At least without Ajani, you're not trying to assemble 4 total mana and WR on the same card.


Maybe the next step is UGW that its sideboard transform it to UGWr.

Unless you're [still] weakening the manabase by splashing red, adding lands to the sideboard just to play Firespouts just seems redundant. WoG does everything Firespout does for 1 more mana. If you're aggro/control deck isn't surviving until you are able to hit 4 lands (when you're digging and/or you run a 19+ land manabase), you're doing something wrong.


If you dont play Qasali pridemage, stick with predator, some need of ench/art hate is needed.

There's no good reason to not run Qasali, though. That guy is just so damn good.

adrieng
10-09-2009, 08:02 AM
Why do you play doom blade over smother ??
Smother kills almost everycreature, whereas doom blade doesn't answer a dark confidant, which is the second most played creature in the format.
Creatures with 4CC and more see close to no play but in dragon stompy and sower of temptation.
Both can't answer a stalker.