[Archetype] CounterTop

[Rico Suave]

@ Rico Suave

Goldfishing consistent mana in a 4c list with Brainstorm/Ponder/Top is not the problem. Obviously when the manabase isn't being attacked, 4c is possible with such a draw package.

The problem is the mana denial you will likely face in a long round of swiss. Goblins w/ Waste/Port, Merfolk w/ and w/out Stifle, and Canadian Thresh are all prevalent archtypes. Toss some Aggro/Loam and random Stax into the mix, and you're going to see some inconsistencies. There's nothing worse than losing a game because you were locked out of a color or experienced manascrew.

I hate 4c manabases. Especially in decks that aim to be more controlling and want more lands drops, as well as access to all its colors as soon as possible. That's my personal preference though, and I don't see a significant gain in power to make up for the loss of stability. Again, preference.


I mentioned it before, but generally Wastelands don't do much. For example I don't care if Goblins Wastes my Trop, because I've already used it to drop Tarmo (and that was my only green card).

Stifle is a mixed-bag. Play around it, not into it, and 90% of your problems will go away. It's a lot like Daze in this regard.

The worst problems are in the form of Wasteland-recursion (Loam/Crucible) which can shut you down entirely given enough time, and I would argue that a Loam/Crucible deck in full recursion mode will beat you anyway regardless of how many colors you run.

Examples like Stax are not good examples though. In fact they add weight to the argument that power is greater than consistency, because SB options in white like Serenity absolutely annihilate Stax, and any "inconsistency" in the mana base is completely overshadowed.

One last thing I want to clear up:


Especially in decks that aim to be more controlling and want more lands drops, as well as access to all its colors as soon as possible

You can say the deck wants access to all colors as soon as possible, but the reality is that you only need access to the colors of spells you draw and only when you need to play them.

[Hanni]

You can say the deck wants access to all colors as soon as possible, but the reality is that you only need access to the colors of spells you draw and only when you need to play them.

Right, but nothing is worse than virtual card disadvantage because your own manabase didn't cooperate.


I mentioned it before, but generally Wastelands don't do much. For example I don't care if Goblins Wastes my Trop, because I've already used it to drop Tarmo (and that was my only green card).

Stifle is a mixed-bag. Play around it, not into it, and 90% of your problems will go away. It's a lot like Daze in this regard.

Wasteland is effective at shutting a deck out of a specific color source it needs in 3 color deck oftentimes, and you're talking about 4c. If you put Trop into play because it was already in your hand and you needed to cast a cantrip, losing that Trop can be devastating, for example.

If you play around Stifle rather than pop into Stifle, you're giving the tempo player (like a Tempo Thresh player) tempo regardless. It's better to just play into it; you never know when they are bluffing, and you shouldn't let them slow ur game down because you're afraid of Stifle. Of course if you have an extra fetch to leave sit there, sure, but in 4c, you're going to be wanting to crack it much sooner than later.

Do another sample goldfish, assuming that the player has 1 Wasteland or 1 fetch to use against you each time. Watch how much the consistency changes in your result patterns. Some games when you hit all four colors by turn 3, you may find a single Wasteland locking out of all four until much later than that.

Players that sware by 4c and think they can easily play through it are reasons why decks like Tempo Thresh still make frequent Top 8's.

[Rico Suave]

Right, but nothing is worse than virtual card disadvantage because your own manabase didn't cooperate.



Wasteland is effective at shutting a deck out of a specific color source it needs in 3 color deck oftentimes, and you're talking about 4c. If you put Trop into play because it was already in your hand and you needed to cast a cantrip, losing that Trop can be devastating, for example.

If you play around Stifle rather than pop into Stifle, you're giving the tempo player (like a Tempo Thresh player) tempo regardless. It's better to just play into it; you never know when they are bluffing, and you shouldn't let them slow ur game down because you're afraid of Stifle. Of course if you have an extra fetch to leave sit there, sure, but in 4c, you're going to be wanting to crack it much sooner than later.

Do another sample goldfish, assuming that the player has 1 Wasteland or 1 fetch to use against you each time. Watch how much the consistency changes in your result patterns. Some games when you hit all four colors by turn 3, you may find a single Wasteland locking out of all four until much later than that.

Players that sware by 4c and think they can easily play through it are reasons why decks like Tempo Thresh still make frequent Top 8's.

I did another set of goldfish, assuming the player has 1 Wasteland each time.

In most cases I would just sacrifice the first land I played, especially when I'm sitting on fetches that can become any color, however in certain obvious situations (like I start with 2 Tundras in hand) I would purposely sacrifice a color other than what I had in multiples despite the fact my opponent wouldn't know during a normal game.

I still would play the deck normally, meaning I go for first turn Thoughtseizes, playing Tarmo as appropriate, and dropping Counterbalance instead of digging spells which would skew the results. However, in these situations there are certain occasions where I am forced to dig for mana instead of playing CB or something similar, so take note that the option is present to go either direction.

Remember, this is when I established all the colors. This means I could have played any color of my choice if I wanted to, and played it as a land drop that turn. Sometimes you'll see "all colors on turn 3" which doesn't make sense considering I can't possibly have all the colors on the board if I lost a land to Waste, but it just means if I wanted I could have played a black source or a green source to cast whatever I wanted to cast that turn.

There were no mulligans.

1) All colors on turn 3
2) All colors on turn 7
3) All colors on turn 6
4) All colors on turn 3
5) All colors on turn 7
6) All colors on turn 6
7) All colors on turn 11
8) All colors on turn 4
9) All colors on turn 7
10) All colors on turn 5
11) All colors on turn 1 (dual and 3 fetches)
12) All colors on turn 5
13) All colors on turn 5
14) All colors on turn 1 (dual and 3 fetches)
15) All colors on turn 4
16) All colors on turn 5
17) All colors on turn 9
18) All colors on turn 6
19) All colors on turn 5
20) All colors on turn 7
21) All colors on turn 4
22) All colors on turn 5
23) All colors on turn 9
24) All colors on turn 17
25) All colors on turn 4

T1: 2
T2: 0
T3: 2
T4: 4
T5: 6
T6: 3
T7: 4
T8: 0
T9: 2
T10: 0
T11: 1

And a random turn 17.

Including the 17, and we average all colors established on turn 5.84 while facing a Wasteland.

Something else to note is that in many situations I may not have established the colors until a specific turn but I had all the necessary mana to cast the spells I actually drew. Turn 17 was a prime example, where I played a Tarmo on turn 3, turn 4, and turn 5 all with double Force back-up and Sower to boot. It was the kind of hand that would wreck most any deck even though I couldn't cast my lone black spell.

If you turn the 17 into a 5, we're looking at a turn 5.36 average instead.

Is any of this good enough? I don't know, I haven't done any tests of 3 color Top builds.

I do know that what screwed me the vast majority of the time was not color, but simply total land-screw. There were times I'd have 2 land in my opening hand and get stuck for a turn or two, missing a land drop entirely.

EDIT - one point I wanted to touch on:


If you play around Stifle rather than pop into Stifle, you're giving the tempo player (like a Tempo Thresh player) tempo regardless. It's better to just play into it; you never know when they are bluffing, and you shouldn't let them slow ur game down because you're afraid of Stifle. Of course if you have an extra fetch to leave sit there, sure, but in 4c, you're going to be wanting to crack it much sooner than later.

This is wrong. If the Tempo Thresh player is tapping out, you can safely fetch w/o worry of Stifle. If he is purposely slowing his game down to keep Stifle up at all times, you will be facing weak pressure at best.

It is thinking like this that turns 4 color mana bases into crap, in my opinion.

[Hanni]

Elspeth rocks. I can't explain how many games I play my 4th land drop which makes WW, drop Elspeth, and swing for 6 with Qasali or 7 with Tarmogoyf. That shit ends games real fast.

Elspeth is great in Landstill because its so defensive. Elspeth is great in here because its so aggressive. Anyone else experiencing this?

EDIT: The list I posted is just sick. The entire Thresh shell, complimented by the additional 2 Elspeth, 2 Oblivion Ring, and 2 Wrath of God just transform the deck into a monster. Now you're looking at 8 removal spells, 2 of which answer any permanent, 2 of which sweep the board, and a Planeswalker that's just rediculously broken. Just like I said so long ago in the Landstill thread about how U/W Counterbalance Landstill being the wave of the future, I wonder how long U/W/g Planeswalker CounterTop takes to catch on. Both of these decks are just insane for our format; I wish I had the same charisma and credibility as guys like David Gearhardt and Alix Hatfield. =[

[Jak]

Elspeth rocks. I can't explain how many games I play my 4th land drop which makes WW, drop Elspeth, and swing for 6 with Qasali or 7 with Tarmogoyf. That shit ends games real fast.

Elspeth is great in Landstill because its so defensive. Elspeth is great in here because its so aggressive. Anyone else experiencing this?

EDIT: The list I posted is just sick. The entire Thresh shell, complimented by the additional 2 Elspeth, 2 Oblivion Ring, and 2 Wrath of God just transform the deck into a monster. Now you're looking at 8 removal spells, 2 of which answer any permanent, 2 of which sweep the board, and a Planeswalker that's just rediculously broken. Just like I said so long ago in the Landstill thread about how U/W Counterbalance Landstill being the wave of the future, I wonder how long U/W/g Planeswalker CounterTop takes to catch on. Both of these decks are just insane for our format; I wish I had the same charisma and credibility as guys like David Gearhardt and Alix Hatfield. =[

Not trying to bash you at all, but they put up results (like from large tournaments) with their creations. MWS testing and saying the deck is a house just doesn't do it for most people. I do like where you are taking the deck though.

[Hanni]

Not trying to bash you at all, but they put up results (like from large tournaments) with their creations. MWS testing and saying the deck is a house just doesn't do it for most people. I do like where you are taking the deck though.

If only I could.

[Bardo]

T1: 2
T2: 0
T3: 2
T4: 4
T5: 6
T6: 3
T7: 4
T8: 0
T9: 2
T10: 0
T11: 1

And a random turn 17.

...

If you turn the 17 into a 5, we're looking at a turn 5.36 average instead.

Is any of this good enough? I don't know, I haven't done any tests of 3 color Top builds.

Doesn't seem to be good enough--going back to that power vs. consistency argument I was making earlier. If all of a deck's cards are coming are coming online between turn 5-6 because of one Wasteland, you're going to lose many games you would have otherwise won by running 3c.

I played 3c CT in my last Legacy tournament (w/ much more testing leading up to it) and the mana flowed like water. I ran 4c in the tournament before that (U/g/r/w -- with War Monks and Firespout in the main; REBs in the side) and lost one round due to getting color-screwed (couldn't cast my FSpout G1 and got crushed by Blood Moon G2). Vs. Goblins, I played around Wasteland too conservatively and drew a round I should have won (vs. Gobs, 4c wants every color online pretty much ASAP--Ponder/BEB, StP, Goyf, Firespout really spread you thin).

As much as I like splashing for Bob and Duress, I think 3c will get you further in a large tournament where you're likely to see a heavy amount of tribal aggro (Merfolk, Gobs) and random decks that pack Wasteland.

My current 3 and 4-color manabases:

(3-color)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

(4-color)
8 Blue Fetch (doesn't matter which)
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Island

[Rico Suave]

Doesn't seem to be good enough--going back to that power vs. consistency argument I was making earlier. If all of a deck's cards are coming are coming online between turn 5-6 because of one Wasteland, you're going to lose many games you would have otherwise won by running 3c.

I played 3c CT in my last Legacy tournament (w/ much more testing leading up to it) and the mana flowed like water. I ran 4c in the tournament before that (U/g/r/w -- with War Monks and Firespout in the main; REBs in the side) and lost one round due to getting color-screwed (couldn't cast my FSpout G1 and got crushed by Blood Moon G2). Vs. Goblins, I played around Wasteland too conservatively and drew a round I should have won (vs. Gobs, 4c wants every color online pretty much ASAP--Ponder/BEB, StP, Goyf, Firespout really spread you thin).

As much as I like splashing for Bob and Duress, I think 3c will get you further in a large tournament where you're likely to see a heavy amount of tribal aggro (Merfolk, Gobs) and random decks that pack Wasteland.

My current 3 and 4-color manabases:

(3-color)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

(4-color)
8 Blue Fetch (doesn't matter which)
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Island

I see where you're coming from, and perhaps you are right. In my defense, the off-color cards I do run are not demanding like the Monk.

If I were to play in a field of heavy tribal aggro, however, I wouldn't cut black. Engineered Plague in the SB is a house against those decks.

Actually, I have trouble thinking of a good reason to cut black at all. Confidant is arguably the best draw spell in the entire format. What do you use to draw if you don't run black? The only real way to gain card advantage in the U/g/w list you posted earlier would be through CB/Top or Brainstorm. I think that's a pretty serious problem for a deck that is control at heart.

[Jon Stewart]

Is this where we can talk about Bant Aggro decks.

I see tons of decks ripping up my metagame playing...

4 noble hierarch
4 tarmogoyf
4 qasali pridemade
3 knight of reliquary/lorescale coatl/coldeyed selkie
3 kitchen finks/rhox war monk/sower of temptation/rafiq of many
3 natural order
1 progenitus
3 countertop
4 fow

I'm not sure on the exact lists. I've seen all those cards played. Just overwhelm you with big creatures with countertop, lots of counters and blue cantrips backing them up.

Some lists play countertop and some don't. But they top 8 pretty much every week at my shop and I saw them top 8 many mws online tourneys.

So where do those lists get talked about? Can we talk about them here if they're playing countertop?

[Bardo]

Actually, I have trouble thinking of a good reason to cut black at all. Confidant is arguably the best draw spell in the entire format. What do you use to draw if you don't run black? The only real way to gain card advantage in the U/g/w list you posted earlier would be through CB/Top or Brainstorm.

Without black you draw cards like the Gro and Threshold decks that came before: cantrips and the virtual/relative draw power you get with running fewer lands than most decks. Really though, you see enough cards with Ponder, Brainstorm + fetches and Top + fetches that you don't need actual card advantage to be competitive.

If you're running black, then Dark Confidant is one of the best cards to run in this deck --since it affects the board, it's a clock (though sometimes to you too) and Top + Bob is mighty awesome.


Is this where we can talk about Bant Aggro decks....
So where do those lists get talked about? Can we talk about them here if they're playing countertop?

The closest thing is the Bant Survival thread (a fine deck) http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13478

You can discuss Bant Aggro decks in this thread, but they need to be running Counterbalance and Divining Top (this is a Counter-Top thread).

If your deck doesn't fall into those categories, then feel free to start a new thread in the New & Development forum.

[Rico Suave]

Without black you draw cards like the Gro and Threshold decks that came before: cantrips and the virtual/relative draw power you get with running fewer lands than most decks. Really though, you see enough cards with Ponder, Brainstorm + fetches and Top + fetches that you don't need actual card advantage to be competitive.


I guess I consider this an unfair comparison, since Gro and Threshold decks usually won on the back of Quirion Dryad and tempo. 2-3 lands was all that was necessary for them to win.

I consider CounterTop variants to be effectively control. When you consider that they like having 4-5 mana to effectively abuse CounterTop and still cast spells, it seems the "run few lands" approach doesn't work out to leverage card advantage.

I guess the white splash is fine for a metagame where you don't actually need card advantage because nobody else likes to draw cards. You can run things like the Monk and just dominate all the mindless aggro decks.

Outside of that? I definitely wouldn't feel comfortable against anything that has more than a tunnel vision approach to the game. Anything with an engine would turn into a bad match. =\

[Aggro_zombies]

Gatekeeper of Malakir and vampire nighthawk both seem to border on playable, nighthawk racing extraordinarily well, especially with jitte, and both capable of killing goyf with some profit. (albiet for three mana)
I saw this in the "best black creatures" thread and got to thinking: how good is Vampire Nighthawk?

In a black version of Counterbalance thresh, he might be a reasonable substitute for RWM, with Bob subbing in for Pridemage. On the one hand, VNH only costs one color of mana, and double :b: is probably easier in some ways to get than one of each color. It also has evasion and the ability to one-hit KO almost everything in the format. On the other hand, ass of three is a HUGE liability against decks like Zoo or Merfolk, quickly putting him out of blocker range, and two power isn't so hot at racing against those decks. I like the suggestion of dressing him up with a Jitte...thoughts? Is this a stupid suggestion or is there some merit to this guy?

Sorry if it was previously mentioned.

[BreathWeapon]

Vampire Nighthawk is no where near as good as Rhox Warmonk in the ZOO match up and against the aggro-control match up you're better off with Bitterblossom - I found him really, really disappointing and often wondered why I just didn't drop Tombstalker for the same mana cost.

[ShiftyKapree]

Maindeck:
Artifacts
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
2 Sower Of Temptation
4 Tarmogoyf
Enchantments
4 Counterbalance
Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force Of Will
2 Putrefy
3 Smother
4 Stifle
Sorceries
3 Thoughtseize
Basic Lands
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp
Lands
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Sower Of Temptation
3 Leyline Of The Void
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip

I believe this is the new shell of couterbalance decks along the lines of BUG. It seems this is the only deck shell that has been putting up results of true CBT decks. I still question if UGW is better than this version. Anyone think of BUG CBT being better than UGW without Natural Order?

[chokin]

Maindeck:
Artifacts
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
2 Sower Of Temptation
4 Tarmogoyf
Enchantments
4 Counterbalance
Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force Of Will
2 Putrefy
3 Smother
4 Stifle
Sorceries
3 Thoughtseize
Basic Lands
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp
Lands
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Sower Of Temptation
3 Leyline Of The Void
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip

I believe this is the new shell of couterbalance decks along the lines of BUG. It seems this is the only deck shell that has been putting up results of true CBT decks. I still question if UGW is better than this version. Anyone think of BUG CBT being better than UGW without Natural Order?

You're going to be pretty vulnerable to land disruption. I don't think that Stifle or Wasteland fit in your deck. Usually it's Stifle/Waste OR CBTop. Stifle/Waste is usually a tempo thing, CBTop is more of a control thing.

Pernicious Deeds in your board rapes all of your permanents (omit Sower) when cranked to 2 with no way of recovering. Leyline should be 4 or 0. I think Crypt is better or Planar Void since you run black.

[ShiftyKapree]

You're going to be pretty vulnerable to land disruption. I don't think that Stifle or Wasteland fit in your deck. Usually it's Stifle/Waste OR CBTop. Stifle/Waste is usually a tempo thing, CBTop is more of a control thing.

Pernicious Deeds in your board rapes all of your permanents (omit Sower) when cranked to 2 with no way of recovering. Leyline should be 4 or 0. I think Crypt is better or Planar Void since you run black.

Every cbt deck has problems with landbase and wastelands. Thats why stifle is being ran to stop that, also basic land. Deed is great against zoo match-ups and merfolk. Wasteland and stifle are here bc you have Dark Confident in the deck to rebuild tempo. It is an aggro control deck not control

[dr.knockers]

Yeah, because everyone thinks it is a good play to let confidant stick to the board.

(1)(B) Dark Confidant

Force target player to use his or her removal/ counter.

[Rico Suave]

Every cbt deck has problems with landbase and wastelands. Thats why stifle is being ran to stop that, also basic land. Deed is great against zoo match-ups and merfolk. Wasteland and stifle are here bc you have Dark Confident in the deck to rebuild tempo. It is an aggro control deck not control

Decks with Stifle/Wasteland that are successful use it to put the opponent behind a land drop, which consequently means they have to waste an entire turn just getting back to where they used to be. It is a turn during which you can swing for 3-6 and effectively Time Walk (assuming they have no blockers).

Unfortunately when you play a 2nd turn Counterbalance, you gain nothing from a Wasteland or Stifle. You don't get an extra attack phase because you have no threats out. You can't pressure your opponent. This makes the "Time Walk" effect of Waste/Stifle largely wasted.

If your opponent plays a single blocker on turn 2, the Time Walk effect is still wasted because your deck doesn't have a reliable way to remove blockers. Tempo Thresh has 8 ways to remove an early blocker, that deck has 3.

Wasteland/Stifle really need other cards that provide synergy to be truly worth a maindeck slot. Currently, those two cards are largely reliant on "well I hope my opponent is mana screwed" which isn't a great approach, especially for a control deck.

[Jujuhawk]

Wasteland/Stifle is not only a tempo option, it allows you to completely blow people out and give yourself time to set up the counterbalance lockdown. This list was made by some IRL friends of mine and it's probably one of the best preforming decks at big tournaments out of our playgroup. 2 people playing it t32'd the GP and one has top 8'd 2 or 3 big legacy tournaments along with countless local wins.

[FoulQ]

Okay jujuhawk, but the vast majority, and I mean VAST majority, of decks with the countertop engine do NOT run stifle, let alone stifle + wasteland. It goes against the fundamental theories of countertop, as Rico pointed out.

[Rico Suave]

Wasteland/Stifle is not only a tempo option, it allows you to completely blow people out and give yourself time to set up the counterbalance lockdown. This list was made by some IRL friends of mine and it's probably one of the best preforming decks at big tournaments out of our playgroup. 2 people playing it t32'd the GP and one has top 8'd 2 or 3 big legacy tournaments along with countless local wins.

Unfortunately, Wateland/Stifle is *only* a tempo option in this deck.

You don't have any cards that provide synergy with Wasteland or Stifle. You have no Standstills to make Wasteland useful, you have no Dreadnought to make Stifle useful, and I already mentioned how the deck isn't really built to take advantage of the tempo gain in the first place.

Sure there will be times you can drop a 2nd turn Tarmo/Confidant, then play a Waste/Stifle or some such thing and dig your opponent into a hole. The vast majority of time however you will not be in that situation and Waste/Stifle will be weak or useless.

I think the question you need to ask yourself is: would your friends have won their respective tournaments if they ran better cards. ;)

[chokin]

I bet if the pilots were to pilot a more standard UGb list, they would have done miles better than they did at GP and possibly better at the "big Legacy tournaments". I'm not trying to step on any toes, but I do not believe that the list is optimal.

[Jujuhawk]

I bet if the pilots were to pilot a more standard UGb list, they would have done miles better than they did at GP and possibly better at the "big Legacy tournaments". I'm not trying to step on any toes, but I do not believe that the list is optimal.


WHAAAAT?!>!>!

BAHAHAHA, the only 2 people playing the list making t32 is not good enough? Oooooookay. You know that was the biggest american GP ever right?

Stifle/waste is insane against a lot of decks and if it gives you like 2 free turns with bob you're probably winning as you get soo far ahead.

To quote my friend on facebook that just read these posts:

" 11:53pmXXXXXX

to be fair many of them have tested extensively on MWS and have determined that their win percentages are 100% against people who dont know the rules and disconnect"

[Hanni]

Your friend(s) didn't do well because of Stifle/Waste, they did well because they played CounterTop.

CounterTop is a slower control deck. Waste/Stifle generates tempo. Especially with Confidant, you need to be more worried about answering spells than slowing an opponent's manabase down.

I'm not going to go into great detail why it just doesn't make sense to run Stifle/Waste in a CounterTop shell. Try it both with and without it, and I guaruntee the only thing you'll notice is more manabase stability without the Wastelands. Considering that you want to make lots of land drops anyway, that's about the biggest difference you'll notice. Then you'll get some free space to add a few more control spells, and voila, better UBg CounterTop deck.

If I was going to try and run Waste/Stifle in a UBg shell, I'd go a Team America route and emphasize on the tempo.

[Jujuhawk]

Your friend(s) didn't do well because of Stifle/Waste, they did well because they played CounterTop.

CounterTop is a slower control deck. Waste/Stifle generates tempo. Especially with Confidant, you need to be more worried about answering spells than slowing an opponent's manabase down.

I'm not going to go into great detail why it just doesn't make sense to run Stifle/Waste in a CounterTop shell. Try it both with and without it, and I guaruntee the only thing you'll notice is more manabase stability without the Wastelands. Considering that you want to make lots of land drops anyway, that's about the biggest difference you'll notice. Then you'll get some free space to add a few more control spells, and voila, better UBg CounterTop deck.

If I was going to try and run Waste/Stifle in a UBg shell, I'd go a Team America route and emphasize on the tempo.

Team America is a terrible deck, and this deck has proven to be good, yet you're dismissing it without ever picking it up. I understand what stifle/waste does, it's pretty straightforward, but denying the terrible 4c countertop decks of their mana as well as capitalizing with a bob is insane.

[Rico Suave]

Team America is a terrible deck, and this deck has proven to be good, yet you're dismissing it without ever picking it up. I understand what stifle/waste does, it's pretty straightforward, but denying the terrible 4c countertop decks of their mana as well as capitalizing with a bob is insane.

Let me put it this way.

If you have a Bob that can stick to the table, you'll win regardless of the presence of Stifle/Wasteland.

If your Bob doesn't stick to the table, you will have bad cards in Stifle/Wasteland that do nothing for you.

Is that straight-forward enough for you?

[Jujuhawk]

Let me put it this way.

If you have a Bob that can stick to the table, you'll win regardless of the presence of Stifle/Wasteland.

If your Bob doesn't stick to the table, you will have bad cards in Stifle/Wasteland that do nothing for you.

Is that straight-forward enough for you?

If you play stifle waste and keep them off removal color, it will help bob stick on the table. If bob doesn't stick, you can use stifle/waste to defend a goyf for example, or a sower. Also, you can stifle waste before bob (HURRHURRHURR) and it will help him stick, etcetc. You're acting like I don't know what the cards in this deck do when you've never actually played it before but you're being very dismissive.

[Rico Suave]

If you play stifle waste and keep them off removal color, it will help bob stick on the table. If bob doesn't stick, you can use stifle/waste to defend a goyf for example, or a sower. Also, you can stifle waste before bob (HURRHURRHURR) and it will help him stick, etcetc. You're acting like I don't know what the cards in this deck do when you've never actually played it before but you're being very dismissive.

I would be dismissive if you said to run Lord of the Pit too. I don't have to stick my johnson into a meat grinder to realize it's a bad idea either.

This is beside the point, which you are ignoring. Can Stifle be useful? Sure. Ultimately however you will get more out of a better card. It's really that simple.

[andrew77]

Stifle is actually quite strong by itself in the black cb lists. Wasteland is a bit unimpressive, but running it makes stifle much better and it becomes better because you are also running stifle.

I think you guys are underestimating the impact the stifle/wasteland package has in certain matchups, for example the zoo matchup. If you stifle a fetch on turn 1 you have pretty much just won the game.

[Cenarius]

Guys,

Ever heard of Tempo Threshold? It is one of the best decks in Legacy at the moment playing both Stifle and Wasteland.
Stifle and Wasteland are NEVER dead cards, no matter how you put it. I won last tournament versus Ichorid due to 2x stifle on Ichorid and Nacromoeba. Won multiple games against Zoo/Goblins due to Stifle'ing their first fetch or wasting their land.

That said: You should not combine Stifle/Wasteland with a Countertop deck since it is just too much to handle. Countertop is a control deck that wants to win at midgame/early lategame due to a softlock. Stifle/Wasteland plays a different role. You need to play tempo cards that can help with that plan.

[miko]

Guys,
That said: You should not combine Stifle/Wasteland with a Countertop deck since it is just too much to handle.
There is actually a combination of Countertop and these cards. This year's Legacy Champs featured two UGb-Countertops that even made top8. And I think that both decks are pretty interesting.

[Jujuhawk]

I would be dismissive if you said to run Lord of the Pit too. I don't have to stick my johnson into a meat grinder to realize it's a bad idea either.

This is beside the point, which you are ignoring. Can Stifle be useful? Sure. Ultimately however you will get more out of a better card. It's really that simple.

Now you use some useless comparison, we're not talking about a 12 drop demon lord, we're talking about the most powerful mana denial package in legacy (or maybe even magic next to crucible strip). What is a "better card" to you. This deck is playing the best cards UBG has to offer, aside from junky win conditions like nimble mongoose or do-nothings like ponder. Stifle/Waste provides something that nothing else will, a good setup for one of the nuts 2 drops.

Sure, you could run a reactive package with trinket mages and explosives and pithing needles, etc, but that would only slow the deck down. You could play something like spell snare which is fine, but sometimes that card just doesn't get it done.

Like, I'm pretty sure it would be nearly impossible for this deck to beat zoo without stifle/waste g1. For instance if the stifles were spell snares you would just lose to a turn 1 nacatl with a reasonable curve to back it up. This engine at least allows you to deny them a 1 drop sometimes on turn 1, and on the draw stifle their 2nd land perhaps and waste their first, or something along those lines.

This gives you time to set up counterbalance with some removal or a goyf, etc.


That said: You should not combine Stifle/Wasteland with a Countertop deck since it is just too much to handle. Countertop is a control deck that wants to win at midgame/early lategame due to a softlock. Stifle/Wasteland plays a different role. You need to play tempo cards that can help with that plan.

And what if you don't draw the soft lock? How can you possible beat a deck like zoo without counterbalancing early?

You guys are really underestimating the power of mana denial to go along with engines like counter/top or a card like bob.

[Damnosus]

And what if you don't draw the soft lock? How can you possible beat a deck like zoo without counterbalancing early?

You guys are really underestimating the power of mana denial to go along with engines like counter/top or a card like bob.

Considering how little mana Zoo needs to be effective, I would imagine that Burn Trail and Rhox War Monk are more effective against Zoo than stifle/waste.

[Jujuhawk]

Considering how little mana Zoo needs to be effective, I would imagine that Burn Trail and Rhox War Monk are more effective against Zoo than stifle/waste.

Burn Trail? Also, RWM is terrible against a lot of decks, and white is very mediocre in general. If you're maindecking warmonk and firespout you're not going to win the mirror ever, where this deck gives you a good mirror mu as well as a fine matchup against aggro decks like zoo. Zoo doesn't need a lot of mana, but they don't play mana mana sources, so stifle/wasting them and keeping them on 1 land is insane.

[mhinsz]

I don't agree with the arguement that Stifle/Waste shouldn't be in a Counterbalance/Top list.

If you look at the past 3 SCG Legacy Events, you'll see a pattern of CB/Stifle/Wasteland decks.

Boston 6/21/2009
1st and 3rd are Dreadstill - Playing Counterbalance/Stifle/Wasteland

Charlotte 9/13/2009

2 Blue decks in Top 8 - all playing Counterbalance/Stifle/Wasteland including UGb Threshold
Dreadstill (in a field full of Zoo)

Philadelphia 10/11/2009

Includes 3 blue decks.
Candian Threshold (sans CB),
Thresh with Natural Order
UBg Threshold.

[alfthefurryalien]

This deck does not play like a traditional CB deck. It is almost closer to tempo than CB. The deck wants to find ways to stick an early bob and drown the opps in card advantage. Im not going to argue why stifle/waste is good. What cards are people thinking are better than Stifle/Waste? Ponder?

this deck also goes aggro very fast once your engines are online. As one of the two people that played this list at the GP I can tell you from experience that Waste is incredible and stifle backs it up and is not a dead card if you draw it late.

stifle waste is perfectly at home in this deck and wins games by itself

[dr.knockers]

@ Mhinsz

DreadSTILL plays standstills, that is why waste works in the deck.

@ Alfthefurryalien

Against how many merfolk decks did you play with that list?

[alfthefurryalien]

@ Alfthefurryalien

Against how many merfolk decks did you play with that list?

... good job pointing out a bad MU. We made it better by changing ponder to putrefy. but I played 2 merfolk decks at the GP and beat one of them. Now... find me a deck with no bad MUs and I will switch to that immediatly

[Jujuhawk]

@ Mhinsz

DreadSTILL plays standstills, that is why waste works in the deck.

Waste works in the deck because it plays stifle as well, and you pointed out 1 out of like 5 decks. Are you saying waste doesn't work in the other decks? Because it suuuuure seems to be working ok for my friends (alfthefurryalien being one of them).


@ Alfthefurryalien

Against how many merfolk decks did you play with that list?

THIS JUST IN!!!! MERFOLK BEATS BLUE DECKS!

Scrap it, we found a bad mu.

Like, I honestly don't understand how you can be so dismissive when this deck has been tearing up big legacy events. Tim Hunt (other friend) top 8'd gencon, the recent 5k, and t32'd the GP, alf t32'd the GP and one of them usually top 8's local events. Alf also won a huge tournament at GP Indy last year for $1k with the same deck but being outdated, and someone totally random played the deck in charlotte I believe and top 4'd.

[andrew77]

Actually if confidant sticks you will beat merfolk. They have no way to kill him once he lands and just cannot keep up with the CA he generates.

[Jujuhawk]

Except by killing you.

[alfthefurryalien]

Bob is not as good as you think in the merfolk MU. Yes the CA helps you either race or deal with their threats but they can easily swarm you with a few guys and if one is a Lord of A its hard to race

[Rico Suave]

Now you use some useless comparison, we're not talking about a 12 drop demon lord, we're talking about the most powerful mana denial package in legacy (or maybe even magic next to crucible strip). What is a "better card" to you. This deck is playing the best cards UBG has to offer, aside from junky win conditions like nimble mongoose or do-nothings like ponder. Stifle/Waste provides something that nothing else will, a good setup for one of the nuts 2 drops.

Sure, you could run a reactive package with trinket mages and explosives and pithing needles, etc, but that would only slow the deck down. You could play something like spell snare which is fine, but sometimes that card just doesn't get it done.

Like, I'm pretty sure it would be nearly impossible for this deck to beat zoo without stifle/waste g1. For instance if the stifles were spell snares you would just lose to a turn 1 nacatl with a reasonable curve to back it up. This engine at least allows you to deny them a 1 drop sometimes on turn 1, and on the draw stifle their 2nd land perhaps and waste their first, or something along those lines.

This gives you time to set up counterbalance with some removal or a goyf, etc.



And what if you don't draw the soft lock? How can you possible beat a deck like zoo without counterbalancing early?

You guys are really underestimating the power of mana denial to go along with engines like counter/top or a card like bob.

For the record, yes, Ponder is better than Stifle in a CB list. Turn 1 Ponder will still set up those turn 2 plays by:
1) finding the Bob that you don't have in your opening hand
2) finding protection (Daze/FoW) so you can keep it on the board
3) finding the appropriate mana so you can actually cast it, which is an issue with that unstable mana base

Furthermore if your initial plan failed then Stifle does nothing for you. Ponder will be able to dig for threats or answers. It's also impossible to play around Ponder and make it a useless card like Stifle.


... good job pointing out a bad MU. We made it better by changing ponder to putrefy. but I played 2 merfolk decks at the GP and beat one of them. Now... find me a deck with no bad MUs and I will switch to that immediatly

You will continue to have bad match-ups as long as you run cards that are essentially worthless against those bad match-ups. =)

[alfthefurryalien]

so if the 4 stifles become ponders and the waste become color producing lands my MU vs Folk will become better? plz tell me how? and what other bad MUs do you think this deck has?

[Argen]

I'm not going to get into the ins and outs of the deck. If you don't care for the list, that's fine, it doesn't offend me. I did however want to touch on one point:


3) finding the appropriate mana so you can actually cast it, which is an issue with that unstable mana base


The manabase for this deck is so stable. There have only every been two problems I have had with mana in the deck:

1) The game goes long and they waste all my trops. This got fixed with Zendikar fetch lands and the inclusion of the basic forest.
2) I don't draw lands even with Dark Confidant and Top in play. Well....these things happen.

Besides those two things, I don't think I could realisitically ask for a more stable manabase. The way to beat merfolk with this deck (which, you're right, is a pretty abysmal matchup) is to get them to side in Back to Basics against you. It's so incredibly dead. Read the same analysis from the merfolk player who wrote the report about his GenCon experience. He probably lost that match to me because he sided in Back to Basics.

[dr.knockers]

... good job pointing out a bad MU. We made it better by changing ponder to putrefy. but I played 2 merfolk decks at the GP and beat one of them. Now... find me a deck with no bad MUs and I will switch to that immediatly

Seriously, merfolk is a deck that gets played alot. I also think you have a bad goblin matchup, which is also a common deck in the format. That was what i tried to point out. I'm not saying the deck is bad, I only think that this is not the meta for it.

[ShiftyKapree]

Seriously, merfolk is a deck that gets played alot. I also think you have a bad goblin matchup, which is also a common deck in the format. That was what i tried to point out. I'm not saying the deck is bad, I only think that this is not the meta for it.

Thats why you play 5 blast's in the sideboard for goblins and zoo decks. I think the mana base is fine. The only deck that CB has trouble with and probally always will is Merfolk. Island walk hurts so much, you have to remove their viles and LOA. It's pretty much a given game match to them for the most part.

[Rico Suave]

so if the 4 stifles become ponders and the waste become color producing lands my MU vs Folk will become better? plz tell me how? and what other bad MUs do you think this deck has?

Exactly. =)

Ponder finds things. Threats, answers, SB bombs, protection, land (if they try to mana screw you), it doesn't matter. Stifle sits in your hand, and at best it trades 1:1 with a Waste. All other times it does what, null a Vial for a turn?

Either way, Ponder is just one example. You could add a 4th Top for starters.

The only matchups that concern me are Ichorid (because game 1 is so lopsided) and Dragon Stompy simply because of how powerful T1 Moon effects are, especially if they drop it before you could even fetch once.


The manabase for this deck is so stable. There have only every been two problems I have had with mana in the deck:

1) The game goes long and they waste all my trops. This got fixed with Zendikar fetch lands and the inclusion of the basic forest.
2) I don't draw lands even with Dark Confidant and Top in play. Well....these things happen.

Besides those two things, I don't think I could realisitically ask for a more stable manabase. The way to beat merfolk with this deck (which, you're right, is a pretty abysmal matchup) is to get them to side in Back to Basics against you. It's so incredibly dead. Read the same analysis from the merfolk player who wrote the report about his GenCon experience. He probably lost that match to me because he sided in Back to Basics.

Fair enough.

The context of what I said, however, was that Ponder does much of the same function as Stifle. One of the prime reasons people were using to promote Stifle was that it helped protect the mana base from Wastelands, and I just wanted to point out that Ponder fulfills a similar role if necessary.


Thats why you play 5 blast's in the sideboard for goblins and zoo decks. I think the mana base is fine. The only deck that CB has trouble with and probally always will is Merfolk. Island walk hurts so much, you have to remove their viles and LOA. It's pretty much a given game match to them for the most part.

I agree with the blasts part. A plethora of blasts will tear up Goblins especially, and still be extremely solid against Zoo.

I do not believe, however, that Merfolk is a lost cause. First of all the deck is potent. There is a reason CounterTop is extremely competitive, and it's because sometimes it gets a powerful start and the opponent is locked out from the get-go. You can just get a nuts hand and win.

More importantly however, the deck gains access to a wide variety of bombs from the SB if you choose to use them. While many of the lists in this thread don't have much in the way of fighting Merfolk, the option is there.

It is certainly a taxing match though. Who knows what kind of configuration would be required between main/SB to get the match to 50/50, but even without much effort I don't think it's too far from that. Force them to beat you. =p

[sauce]

merfolk is not that bad as long as they dont get aether vial down, its a fair match.
obviously you can blow them out also if they have LoA and you have a goyf, they swing, you StP LoA before blockers, block their dude w/ goyf, gg

their nuts hand > your nuts hand unfortunately

[Kuma]

I've never had much trouble with Merfolk. Counter/StP their Lords of Atlantis and stick a Rhox War Monk. They also really hate Natural Order and Firespout.

It's not the easiest matchup, but if you play your cards right you should win it most of the time.

[Jon Stewart]

The way you guys are arguing against playing wasteland, you make it sound like you see countertop everysingle game and make it out to be a god combo that the deck must be built around.

Countertop is being grossly overrated here. This deck was good before countertop.

Yes CT is good. But At the end of the day, it's a two card combo that's not a hard lock, or a combo that wins you the game within a turn or two like stiflenought and vampire depths combos do. And no most games you won't see both pieces until well into the midgame.

CB is mostly useless on it's own, top is useful but other two card combos above cost less mana and have one useful card too (stifle). And it's worse than NO. Natural order is a one card combo. You play NO and if your opponent can't answer it asap, you win. There is no reason not to play it if your curve supports it.

So yes I went there CB Top is solid but it's not the god combo you guys make it out to be.

[FoulQ]

What are you smoking? Countertop is the single most busted combination of two cards in legacy. Countertop wins games you have no business at all of winning. It answers 90% of the cards in the format. Stiflenought is pretty easily answered, as is vampire depths, compared to countertop, because get this, countertop can COUNTER ALL OF ITS ANSWERS, sometimes including grip.

Yes, countertop is that good. It may not seem that good because almost every deck nowadays has a built in plan to stop it. That's like saying "affinity isn't that good in standard because they'll just cast their maindeck oxidize on your ravager." So, I'm afraid you are wrong.

[TotallySweet]

Why did you need to copy paste this from the Bant thread? You're right, there are other cool two card combos that win the game, and balance+top doesn't exactly win you the game. Sometimes combos don't have to win the game instantly. Sometimes combos cause the opponent to get locked down well enough for you to casually win in some other, natural way.

Also, did you notice that you just rolled up into the [DTB] CounterTop thread and bashed Counterbalance Top in a rather foolish manner?

[Jujuhawk]

Exactly. =)

Ponder finds things. Threats, answers, SB bombs, protection, land (if they try to mana screw you), it doesn't matter. Stifle sits in your hand, and at best it trades 1:1 with a Waste. All other times it does what, null a Vial for a turn?

You make ponder sound like the best card in the format when it is a top+cantrip for a turn. It sets you up for stuff but definately doesn't win you games like stifling a fetch will.


The only matchups that concern me are Ichorid (because game 1 is so lopsided) and Dragon Stompy simply because of how powerful T1 Moon effects are, especially if they drop it before you could even fetch once.

To be fair, dragon stompy is terrible, and ichorid is a very swingy deck. It's either totally nuts or you just lose cause people are playing board cards.



The context of what I said, however, was that Ponder does much of the same function as Stifle. One of the prime reasons people were using to promote Stifle was that it helped protect the mana base from Wastelands, and I just wanted to point out that Ponder fulfills a similar role if necessary.

The problem with ponder, however, is that you are going to be playing ponders in your deck, and they are not even remotely similar to stifle. Stifle can LD them (or protect from waste), stifle random triggers like your own bobs (which can happen) or things like EE.


I do not believe, however, that Merfolk is a lost cause. First of all the deck is potent. There is a reason CounterTop is extremely competitive, and it's because sometimes it gets a powerful start and the opponent is locked out from the get-go. You can just get a nuts hand and win.

More importantly however, the deck gains access to a wide variety of bombs from the SB if you choose to use them. While many of the lists in this thread don't have much in the way of fighting Merfolk, the option is there.

It is certainly a taxing match though. Who knows what kind of configuration would be required between main/SB to get the match to 50/50, but even without much effort I don't think it's too far from that. Force them to beat you. =p


The matchup is really awful, and is worse when they are playing stifle. Counterbalance/top is slow and doesn't do anything if they have vial (thank god they don't have merfolk lackey), and even if it does, it's hard to counter 3 drops with so few 3's. To beat them you really need to draw multiple removal spells and maybe a deed (in UBG that is). The deck doesn't have access to firespout or any wrath effect other than deed, and deed is kind of slow and vulnerable.

[Jon Stewart]

foulq, Uh huh, this deck has no problem whatsoever consistently being able to stop 3cc answers, or grip. I've played with and against this deck enough times to know that's an outright lie. It's not that easy or consistent for you to resolve it and it's not that difficult for your opponents to escape from the two card lock.

It's a two card combo where you have to find and resolve both pieces. Assuming there isn't already a Quasali or seal or trygon on the table. And even when you do, there's plenty of ways for opponents to shut it down.

Progenitus is harder to stop and it wins the game in two turns guarenteed, same with the other combos, they must be stopped asap or you lose. CBtop is just a soft lock.

I'm not saying it's not a great card but you guys are hyping it up way too much in thus recent debate over wasteland. For example the matchup claims where you wrote that every deck but merfolk and d stompy is positive bc of countertop is false.

[FoulQ]

Okay almighty Jon Stewart, then where are you are results? Where are these NO decks racking up results in every which direction? I search deckcheck for decks containing both top and counterbalance, and I get so many (740) that it CAN'T EVEN DISPLAY THEM ALL THERE ARE SO MANY.

Countertop is a huge player in every major tournament and top eights almost every big tournament. Natural Order is a fringe archetype, currently has less recent top eights in major events than freaking stax. That's right, stax.

This is magic, no deck is perfect, so yes grip can answer the counterbalance most of the time, but by then it is often too late and the card advantage it produces (both of your cute combos produce NONE) has already put the countertop player way far ahead.

I take you back to my affinity argument. Why are people playing krosan grip in the first place? You make an argument that "counterbalance dies to grip" well no crap, WHY DO YOU THINK PEOPLE PLAY IT? Countertop is the most dominant interaction in legacy right now. Everyone in the entire world and probably more are against you.

[God_Dethroned]

Where are these NO decks racking up results in every which direction?
Countertop is a huge player in every major tournament and top eights almost every big tournament. Natural Order is a fringe archetype, currently has less recent top eights in major events than freaking stax. That's right, stax.

Ok. This is a mediocre argument because Progenitus was printed later than all key cards of Staxx. Probably there just aren't so many players, who want to give this deck a try and rather play an etablished archetype. For me the deck works great. (I also noticed two NO decks in the Top 16 in Philly last week. ok ok that's right staxx won -.-)

This is magic, no deck is perfect, so yes grip can answer the counterbalance most of the time, but by then it is often too late and the card advantage it produces (both of your cute combos produce NONE) has already put the countertop player way far ahead.

If your opponent is able to assemble a strong offense in the first turns, CB will not be able to turn the game around. This is what can happen against tribal decks and Zoo. You need to slow them down with a blocker/removal before CB/Top takes care of the upcoming threats. Aether Vial can also fuck you up hard if not countered. By the way, there are less answers to Progenitus than CB, if played at all.

Countertop is the most dominant interaction in legacy right now.

Totally agreed. But when you combine two retarded combos in one deck, you have more options to change the gamestate drastically to your favor.
If one strategy fails, it's nice to have a good plan B.

Here's the list I've been playing the last months (only changed SB after my tournament report):

[My Decklist] (60)

Lands: (18)
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Flooded Strand
2x Windswept Heath
3x Tropical Island
2x Tundra
2x Island
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Dryad Arbor

Creatures: (13+1)
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Rhox War Monk
1x Trygon Predator
1x Progenitus

“The infamous CB/Top Part”: (8)

4x Counterbalance
4x Sensei’s Divining Top

Other Spells: (21)

4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Natural Order

SB: (15)
1x Trygon Predator
2x Krosan Grip
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Hydroblast
2x Blue Elemental Blast
3x Path to Exile
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Tormod’s Crypt
1x Empyrial Archangel

I really like the playstyle of this deck. Against other aggro-control or combo you have CB/top to put you in a good position. Against an aggro deck without counters you just cast NO for the win, before they build up a deadly swarm. Natural Order is a no-brainer just like Counter/Top is.

[Rico Suave]

You make ponder sound like the best card in the format when it is a top+cantrip for a turn. It sets you up for stuff but definately doesn't win you games like stifling a fetch will.

The point is that Ponder won't lose you games like Stifle will. ;)

I'm not going to head into a point-by-point an analysis. You already know the pros and cons, and while you gain the ability to randomly win because your opponent is mana screwed for a few turns you give up a LOT if that fails.

In a deck that is control by nature, and without a reliable way to clear the way for its creatures, the tempo gain of Stifle/Wasteland is marginal. What good is an "extra turn" if you still can't swing through their blockers? Notice how Tempo Thresh packs more than twice as much spot removal as pretty much any list in this thread...

The poor synergy with CounterTop is just icing on the cake. If you don't want to run Ponder, then don't. You can start by running 4 Top though. =)


The matchup is really awful, and is worse when they are playing stifle. Counterbalance/top is slow and doesn't do anything if they have vial (thank god they don't have merfolk lackey), and even if it does, it's hard to counter 3 drops with so few 3's. To beat them you really need to draw multiple removal spells and maybe a deed (in UBG that is). The deck doesn't have access to firespout or any wrath effect other than deed, and deed is kind of slow and vulnerable.

For UBG yes, the options are limited against Merfolk.

I'd say the best bet for a strict board clearer in UBG is Infest. It's not clunky or vulnerable like Deed, and its effect is a full turn faster to boot. The flip side is that BB1 may be harder to get than Deed's BG1, which is already awkward enough.

White and red versions are of course drastically different, and approach the matchup in an entirely different matter. I don't have much experience with a UGW or UGR build to comment on it though.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

I'd say the best bet for a strict board clearer in UBG is Infest. It's not clunky or vulnerable like Deed, and its effect is a full turn faster to boot. The flip side is that BB1 may be harder to get than Deed's BG1, which is already awkward enough.

I would just add, as a flip side, that there will be situations where Infest just won't be enough to clear the board given the number of lords some decks can run (e.g. Merfolk). Maybe a split of X/1 Infest/Deed would be the way to go for UGb in an aggro meta?

[Misplayer]

+1 to FoulQ's points. CounterTop shuts off 2/3 of the format. It's as good as the "hype" claims, if not better. Every deck's number one concern is "how do I beat CounterTop decks?" and all good decks have some kind of answer to that question beyond "hope they can't find both pieces".

The only issue I have with the NO/CBTop lists is that you're forced to run Noble Hierarch which is a relatively weak card. In a vaccuum, Hierarch is a strong card for sure, but relative to alternative permanents in that slot (Dark Confidant, Vedalken Shackles, Sower, even V. Clique), NH is very weak. In most CounterTop lists, every permanent in that deck is either a bomb or a card that drastically improves multiple difficult matchups (Trygon/RWM). Hierarch is neither of these, and I feel like the tradeoff of giving up 4 (really 8) slots for the ability to go "No Force? 2 turn clock" isn't worth it. Especially when non-NO CounterTop lists don't need the Progentius combo to make them one of the best decks in the format.

[God_Dethroned]

Especially when non-NO CounterTop lists don't need the Progentius combo to make them one of the best decks in the format.

It's for sure a superb archetype. But especially when facing a random/aggro meta I switched to NO-versions of the deck. Actually, I have won so many games with the Hydra/Angel in play that I otherwise would have lost.

Noble Hierarch protects you from manadenial decks with Stifle/Waste/Choke.
He also makes a turn 2 War Monk a real threat, or lets your Tarmogoyf outclass the opponents'. This pressure forces the opponent to waste his counters - and then you can cast NO when he has no/less counterbackup left.

Natural Order is an additional answer to your opponents CB. The only counter you have to care about in other CB/Thresh/Merfolk decks is Force of Will.
It is also useful to have a cc4 spell on top for bombs like Elspeth/Humility/Wrath, which can be devastating against us.
The deck plays enough library manipulation, that you rarely draw too much of the "situational cards".

Pointing that out, I don't think that adding NO will drastically weaken any matchups. Does it? The added "Oops-I-win-factor" is definitely worth it.

[Kuma]

Where are these NO decks racking up results in every which direction? I search deckcheck for decks containing both top and counterbalance, and I get so many (740) that it CAN'T EVEN DISPLAY THEM ALL THERE ARE SO MANY.

Top eights at both Legacy Championship preliminaries, top eight at the Legacy Championships, top eight at The Meandeck Open #4, two top eights at the SCG Philly 5K.

And that's without checking DeckCheck. It's also ignoring Elf lists or Elephant Stompy/MGCA lists.

I'm not saying NO decks have more placings than CounterTop decks, but it's also a much newer strategy. I believe that some combination of the two is the strongest or second strongest strategy in Legacy right now.


The only issue I have with the NO/CBTop lists is that you're forced to run Noble Hierarch which is a relatively weak card. In a vaccuum, Hierarch is a strong card for sure, but relative to alternative permanents in that slot (Dark Confidant, Vedalken Shackles, Sower, even V. Clique), NH is very weak.

Noble Hierarch is anything but weak. And the argument isn't Hierarch vs. Dark Confidant/Vedalken Shackles/Sower of Temptation/ Vendillion Clique, it's Hierarch and Natural Order versus the alternatives. Hierarch lets you get away with running one or two fewer lands, which makes the comparison even more favorable.

Noble Hierarch:

- solves any colored mana issues
- is fantastic against Dragon Stompy, Stax, 42 land, Aggro Loam, and any deck with a strong mana denial plan.
- accelerates your manabase allowing for turn two Rhox War Monks, and Daze-proof Counterbalances and Tarmogoyfs.
- Exalted lets you win Tarmogoyf wars and gain extra life with Rhox War Monk. It also lets you "swing for one" while making mana.

This in addition to the game stealing power of Natural Order seems stronger than some combination of the aforementioned cards.



In most CounterTop lists, every permanent in that deck is either a bomb or a card that drastically improves multiple difficult matchups (Trygon/RWM). Hierarch is neither of these

You don't think Dragon Stompy, Stax, 43 land, and Aggro Loam are difficult matches?


and I feel like the tradeoff of giving up 4 (really 8) slots for the ability to go "No Force? 2 turn clock" isn't worth it.

It's really more like six slots since you can cheat on your lands a little.

You don't just throw a Natural Order out there to be forced. You make them spend their counters on Counterbalances, Goyfs, War Monks, and the rest of the bombs in your deck. And after they're spent, you bend them over with Natural Order and shove a Progenitus up their ass.

I think I've had a Natural Order succesfully Force of Will'd two or three times. And they were in situations where I had nothing to lose by trying since I had to stick it order to win. Either I've had a Force or Daze to protect it, or I made them spend their Force earlier to avoid CounterTop lock, or something. If you're a decent player, you can usually figure out when it's safe to resolve a Natural Order.


Especially when non-NO CounterTop lists don't need the Progentius combo to make them one of the best decks in the format.

This doesn't mean that the deck wouldn't be better with Natural Order.

[FoulQ]

Okay I think there was a misunderstanding, I'm not saying NO is bad and shouldn't be played, but I am saying that countertop is a different kind of combo based on card advantage. NO is based on winning the game as quickly as possible when you cast it, obviously, with no regard to card advantage.

All I was saying was directed towards Jon Stewart was that NO and Stiflenought are not superior to countertop. Running NO and countertop in the same deck is definitely possible, I haven't really completely explored it so I have no idea. But yeah I definitely don't disagree with God Dethroned or Kuma, I'm just saying that countertop is indeed fairly busted.

Also haha Kuma, half the quotes up there aren't even from me.

[Misplayer]

@Kuma/God Dethroned

I think our disagreement lies in a different approach to the deck. I play CounterTop as control. Tarmogoyf is the 'aggro' component of the aggro-control moniker that's been assinged to this type of deck, because it allows you to accidentally go aggro or end the game in short order when presented with that situation. Noble Hierarch is a poor control card. It provides enhanced offense, mana fixing and acceleration, but only mana fixing is important to a control deck. Also, if you want to evaluate the package of NO/Hierarch versus 4 Bob, 2 Shackles, 1/2 Sower, 0/1 Clique when you don't get the combo. Hierarch in the games where you don't draw/resolve Natural Order is an extremely weak card compared to the alternatives above. You can rip a Shackles/Sower and steal a game. If you stick an early/mid Bob, you'll win the game. While NO certainly has MORE game-winning power than those cards, that's only 3 slots and Hierarch will never win you a game on it's own like those other cards will. 3 Game winning slots versus 8. That's how I see it, but I understand that others may have a different perspective.

Also, Bob/Shackles etc are all control cards. Drawing cards and creature control are both control deck strategies, whereas acceleration and exalted are aggro strategies. I'd postulate that the NO versions of CBTop are really NO-Bant Aggro with CBTop backup. Straight CounterTop is a control deck built around the combo of Counterbalance + Top. So it really comes down to how you prefer to play the deck.

Personally, in a random/aggro meta I play a Next Level Painter style deck that still focuses on CounterTop and still has the "oops I win" factor. But it's tutorable so you can devote fewer slots to it, and it fits the curve for CBTop better. And I think red is stronger than white, mostly for sideboard options. But it still plays like a CB/Top control deck, which I believe the Hierarch/NO builds do on a much less frequent basis.

@FoulQ:
Sorry to get you mixed up in what I'm discussing!

[God_Dethroned]

I think our disagreement lies in a different approach to the deck.

Personally, in a random/aggro meta I play a Next Level Painter style deck that still focuses on CounterTop and still has the "oops I win" factor.



This is the problem with this thread. There are too many decks abusing CB/Top that you can't compare them all. As you pointed out, the playstyle is different between the deck variants. Personally, I like them all. In the past, the decks with NO as a combo worked out well for me, so i am a bit biased.

I also understand your arguments against Noble Hierarch. It's more of a support card, than actually a winning card. On the other hand I don't like those UGWB/UGWR decks. The opponnent (Goblins/Merfolk/CanadianThresh) can easily cut away your mana and then it gets hard to recover. Especially expensive cards like Sower are not gamestealing. A 2/2 can be handled easily, if unprotected. If Natural Order resolves only few cards can save your opponent. The red splash for Firespout didn't work out for me well, too. The curve of the deck is just fucked up (refering to the japanese list).

Painter decks have the problem that it's bad against the most popular sideboard card: Krosan Grip (other mainstream sb cards like Needle are useful, too)

The NO-lists can play either aggro or control depending on the situation, which is one of the advantages of Thresh in general. In comparison it can change the direction a lot faster. If you're in trouble/the board position is stalled you can get out with Natural Order (It's not like you always have to go 3rd turn NO). If CB/Top is able to protect your Goyf, you can start hiding behind your Counterbalance and slowly beat down your opponent.

[Kuma]

@Kuma/God Dethroned

I think our disagreement lies in a different approach to the deck. I play CounterTop as control.

So do I. And about 60-65% of my wins don't involve Natural Order in any way. The point of Natural Order isn't to kill your opponent as fast as possible. It can (and often should) be used that way against aggro, but against control it's more of a late game finisher. I would never try a turn three Natural Order against control unless I have a Force of Will to back it up and a spare mana to pay for Daze.

I don't think it's worth getting caught up debating archetypes. Natural Order CounterTop lists run as many or more 'answer me or lose' cards than any other version. But what really sets it apart is the fact that the metagame can't deal with a resolved Progenitus; the biggest decks in the format just don't run answers. Not only do you run lots of cards that demand answers, yours are the hardest to answer.


Noble Hierarch is a poor control card. It provides enhanced offense, mana fixing and acceleration, but only mana fixing is important to a control deck.

Acceleration can be very important for control. Having more mana than your opponent is crucial in the mirror match, as is making sure your Tarmogoyfs/Rhox War Monks are bigger than your opponent's. You can't tell me that being able to resolve a Daze-proof Counterbalance on turn two isn't huge in that match.

I don't think Noble Hierarch really hurts the control plan. Noble Hierarch + Natural Order takes up six slots, since you can treat Noble Hierarchs as half-lands. If you're running anything else in that slot, you really need more lands, so that's eight slots you'd have to use.

And nothing really takes control of the board like a Progenitus. You have to be in one hell of a deep hole for 'Jenny' not to turn the game in your favor.


Also, if you want to evaluate the package of NO/Hierarch versus 4 Bob, 2 Shackles, 1/2 Sower, 0/1 Clique when you don't get the combo. Hierarch in the games where you don't draw/resolve Natural Order is an extremely weak card compared to the alternatives above. You can rip a Shackles/Sower and steal a game. If you stick an early/mid Bob, you'll win the game. While NO certainly has MORE game-winning power than those cards, that's only 3 slots and Hierarch will never win you a game on it's own like those other cards will. 3 Game winning slots versus 8. That's how I see it, but I understand that others may have a different perspective.

Noble Hierarch + Natural Order isn't the combo. Green creature plus Natural Order is the combo. Natural Order lists usually run somewhere between 13-18 green creatures. It's pretty rare to have a Natural Order and nothing to sacrifice to it.

What you fail to realize is that your 'steal a game' slots are much easier to answer. While you may draw them more often, they won't win you the game as often because of the sheer number of answers for them. Edicts and Wrath effects are pretty uncommon.

Remember, you have to run extra lands without Hierarch. It's more like 3 vs 6. But my three are more likely to go the distance than your six and much more quickly.

Half the time you draw a Hierarch, it would be a land in a non-Natural Order list. And I'll admit that by itself it's not the house that some of the cards you named are. But it does do many useful things outside of Natural Order.


Also, Bob/Shackles etc are all control cards. Drawing cards and creature control are both control deck strategies, whereas acceleration and exalted are aggro strategies. I'd postulate that the NO versions of CBTop are really NO-Bant Aggro with CBTop backup. Straight CounterTop is a control deck built around the combo of Counterbalance + Top.

Does changing five cards change what a deck is? I run four Force of Will, four Daze, four Sensei's Divining Top, four Counterbalance, and four Swords to Plowshares in my "Bant Aggro with CounterTop backup" deck. What control do you run aside from that? Two Sowers and three Vedalken Shackles? If you want to count Qasali Pridemage as a control card because of its ability to remove problem cards, our lists are even more thematically similar.

You can call NO/CB what ever you want, but I feel it's a stronger deck than "pure control CounterTop." And that's all that matters to me, and that's all that should matter to any competitive Legacy player.

[God_Dethroned]

You can call NO/CB what ever you want, but I feel it's a stronger deck than "pure control CounterTop." And that's all that matters to me, and that's all that should matter to any competitive Legacy player.

THIS.

[Kuma]

On the other hand I don't like those UGWB/UGWR decks. The opponnent (Goblins/Merfolk/CanadianThresh) can easily cut away your mana and then it gets hard to recover.

I hate to say it, but Natural Order lists are even more vulnerable than four-color CounterTop to Canadian Threshold's mana denial plan. Five of our mana sources are burnable in addition to our vulnerability to Stifle/Wasteland.

Of course, I think we're better off against decks like Dragon Stompy, 43 Land, Stax, and Aggro Loam, so it's a tradeoff.

[God_Dethroned]

Canadian Thresh has been no problem for me.
You run more basics than in 4c CT.
Rhox War Monk makes them cry. CB/Top stops them bolting you out.
Senseis Diving Top is also easily capable to find more lands and wins games on its own.

[Jayzonious]

Anyone try Baneslayer Angel in their CB decks? How was it?

[ShiftyKapree]

Anyone try Baneslayer Angel in their CB decks? How was it?

That just has bad idea written all over it

[Bardo]

The one-liners above do not belong in this thread. Posting "THIS" and so on is not going to cut it. Shape up.

See our Forum-Specific Site Rules for the DTB forum.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=174028&postcount=6

[Rico Suave]

While I don't play Natural Order, I would like to comment in its favor momentarily.

I have a lot more experience playing Vintage than Legacy. This is mostly because I was playing Vintage before Legacy was even created, let alone in its current stand-alone B/R format (it was a complete joke before then). Over the course of Vintage's format development, I saw blue-based control decks evolve.

Did you know control decks used to win with Serra Angel as their ultimate win condition?

Here is what the dominant control decks used to win:

Serra Angel
-
Shard Phoenix
-
Morphling
-
Morphling was on top for many years. Then something miraculous happened. Control decks started using cards like Tinker, Goblin Welder, and Thirst for Knowledge to get a huge artifact into play. The actual win card could be anything from Platinum Angel to Sundering Titan to Pentavus, but the card itself didn't matter. What mattered is the deck was cheating it into play, and thus it started to merge into a control/combo archetype.

Eventually with the inclusion of Yawgmoth's Will into that style of play, the deck would also be able to win solely on the back of a broken Yawgmoth's Will after playing a variety of draw to fuel the deck.

Whether it is casting a Gifts at EOT to set-up Will, or having a huge Gush+Fastbond engine, or going straight to a Vault/Key lock control decks in T1 have always used a combo win after that point. Why? Because with a control deck, once you have managed to draw a bunch of cards and gain a massive advantage in resources over your opponent, the best way to leverage that into a win is with a combo.

Why would I want to play a Morphling that will take 4 additional turns to win, when I can play a card that will win *now*?

Thus we have decks like Dreadstill (which also uses CounterTop) and Natural Order decks (which also use CounterTop) which take this combo-win philosophy and translate it into Legacy. We will also be facing Hexmage/Depth combo wins in the future.

These decks can draw a bunch of cards, then turn around and plop down a combo that just wins. Oh yea, and they still have a bunch of cards that let them draw more.

I'm not going to predict the future of these archetypes, but I will go ahead and say that "traditional" ways of winning are oftentimes too slow to accomplish what a combo finish can. In other words you play unfair and break the rules to play on your own terms.

[DragoFireheart]

Isn't a Counter-Top deck that runs NO/Pro basically a combo/aggro/control deck?

-It has an aggro component ala beats like Tarmogoyf or Rhox War Monk.

- It has a control component, through the numerous counters and counterbalance / divining top.

- It has a combo aspect, counter-top (which is also a control aspect) and a potent combo, natural order / progenitus.

Need to race Ichorid? NO/Pro and kill them in a couple turns.

Need to gain board control? Counter your opponents vital pieces, and then lock down the board.

Need to slip a beater through to win? Tarmogoyf and maybe Rhox War Monk for the distance.


Isn't this what we ultimately want from any deck: to be able to win in numerous and flexible ways?

[Rico Suave]

Isn't a Counter-Top deck that runs NO/Pro basically a combo/aggro/control deck?

...

Isn't this what we ultimately want from any deck: to be able to win in numerous and flexible ways?

Yes. A Counter-Top deck with 8-12 disruption, 8-12 creatures, and enough draw/search to find the Natural Order is essentially aggro/control/combo.

The innate problem with a deck like this is inconsistency. Sometimes you'll draw the aggro components when you want to combo, or have other cards that situationally do not work. Decks usually function and flow better when all the cards are dedicated to a single task. The idea of being aggro/control/combo has been attempted many times in MtG history, though most times unsuccessfully due in large part to inconsistency.

The first legitimate aggro/control/combo deck I can think of was the Gro-a-Tog deck in T1. It was able to successfully meld the three concepts together and reliably play as any role it chose in any given game.

The true test of a Natural Order + CounterTop deck will be how consistent it is. It remains to be seen if it can fulfill all the roles at any given time, and how quickly it can change from one strategy to another. The true success of the GAT deck was how it could always present all 3 roles in nearly every game - oftentimes all at the same time.

[alfthefurryalien]

This is the problem with this thread. There are too many decks abusing CB/Top that you can't compare them all.

Is there anyway we can the administrators to open those thresh threads back up. It seems like they are all still played just with CBT in them or with more focus on tempo. It seems like this thread gets confusing quickly as there are 12 different conversations going on at once and none of them are focused enough to be resolved.

[ShiftyKapree]

Is there anyway we can the administrators to open those thresh threads back up. It seems like they are all still played just with CBT in them or with more focus on tempo. It seems like this thread gets confusing quickly as there are 12 different conversations going on at once and none of them are focused enough to be resolved.

I like this idea but we should have UGW CBT, UGB CBT, PRO Thresh, and that new jap build that splashes red for firespout. So far the only cbt list's I have seen are the UGB top builds. I would like to see some UGW again. I think white will be good again once merfolk dies down and starts losing too decks like goblins and other varients of decks.

[Kuma]

Canadian Thresh has been no problem for me.
You run more basics than in 4c CT.
Rhox War Monk makes them cry. CB/Top stops them bolting you out.
Senseis Diving Top is also easily capable to find more lands and wins games on its own.

Here's a lesson that I learned at the cost of some painful tournament losses:

Fetching basic lands solely because of Wasteland is almost always the wrong play.

Consider this situation: You have a Windswept Heath, a Polluted Delta, and a Tundra in your opening hand. Your deck has a basic Island and Forest but no basic Plains. You know your opponent runs Stifle and Wasteland and you're on the play. Should you use your fetchlands to get basics?

The answer is no.

Lets say you use the Polluted Delta to get a basic Island in this scenario. Your opponent plays a blue dual, let's say a Tropical Island, and passes the turn.

What do you do on your turn? Your deck is loaded with green cards and you'd probably like to get a Forest here to play a Tarmogoyf, or something. Because you fetched a basic Island, you now risk being cut off of green mana if your opponent has a Stifle.

Had you fetched a Tropical Island turn one, a Stifle here would be inconvenient, but you'd still have all your colors. Even if your opponent has a Wasteland for your Tropical Island, he'll also need a Stifle for your other fetchland.

And a mana he doesn't have.

Sometimes you're going to want basics if your opponent has Wastelands sitting on the table, or if you know you're going to need all your mana to resolve a key Natural Order, or if you're reasonably sure he won't kill your Noble Hierarchs. But if you have even one dual land on the board, Wasteland is relevant no matter how many basics you have. You need to keep that in mind when fetching.

The real purpose of basic lands in CounterTop is to improve your chances against Moons and Wastelock. Basics are great against bad matchups like Dragon Stompy, 43 Land, Stax, and Aggro Loam. However, basics are pretty bad agaisnt Canadian Threshold and most Dreadstill lists.


The innate problem with a deck like this is inconsistency. Sometimes you'll draw the aggro components when you want to combo, or have other cards that situationally do not work. Decks usually function and flow better when all the cards are dedicated to a single task. The idea of being aggro/control/combo has been attempted many times in MtG history, though most times unsuccessfully due in large part to inconsistency.

The true test of a Natural Order + CounterTop deck will be how consistent it is. It remains to be seen if it can fulfill all the roles at any given time, and how quickly it can change from one strategy to another. The true success of the GAT deck was how it could always present all 3 roles in nearly every game - oftentimes all at the same time.

In theory, yes, the deck could have consistency issues, but in practice it works pretty well. You're running 8-12 filter cards, so it's not too hard to find the cards you need to fill the role you're trying to play. The mulligan is also a useful tool --- if you're playing against combo, you can mulligan the hand with no control cards, etc.

It's pretty hard to do all three at the same time, but I argue that you don't have to. You don't really have to be more than two at the same time. Against aggro, you want to be combo, but you can win by either gumming up the ground with your creatures or locking them out with CounterTop. Against control, you want to be aggro and control. It's nice, but not necessary to have the combo finish for when they're out of countermagic. Against combo, you want to be control with enough aggro or combo to kill them before they recover.

I can't think of a matchup where you have to be all three at the same time.

[God_Dethroned]

I agree with DragoFireheart and Rico Suave.

Rhox War Monk also slows down the opponents clock, so it's not a pure aggro card. It also keeps your life total high enough until you can cast NO with counter-protection/10+ life to not get burned away. So you don't always have to dig fast for NO against aggro. It definitely helps to get the job done quickly, before the opponent can draw more cards. And as Kuma stated, the deck has enough place for ~10 library manipulation cards combined with fetchlands to adjust your cards.

@Kuma

It depends on the situation, of course. Your example describes a THREE land hand, which is not as troublesome as risky 1-2 lands, where you can be kicked out of the game directly. I'm also not saying that you are forced to fetch for basics directly on the start, but if you draw/fetch into some it's enough, because the deck still runs fine with 2-3 mana (I usually board the combo out. As I said, I'm not having hard times against the deck, but I understand your arguments.

Sensei's Divining Top is the multifunctional tool, helping to decrease the effect of wasteland/stifle and also discard by fixing your draws. Maybe the reason why the flexibility-thing works. Canadian Thresh is in real trouble if it resolves so they are willing to spend their FOW to get rid of it.

[Jon Stewart]

I honestly don't know if this counts as more bant aggro or countertop. I think it's countertop but it's extremely aggressive.

Let me know what you think and what changes you would make. Yes I play 4 NO, they are soo good not to.

I don't think CBTop is bad, just that's it's power is being blown out of proportion. I just think Goyf and NO are better and account for significantly more wins. That said, I agree with the sentiment that there is no reason not to play all three if possible.

15 land
1 island
1 forest
1 dryad arbor

4 brainstorm
4 swords to plowshares
4 natural order
4 force of will
3 daze
3 counterbalance
3 sensei's divining top

4 noble hierarch
4 tarmogoyf
4 qasali pridemage
3 rhox war monk
1 rafiq of the many
1 progenitus

Here's alternatives I considered but I'm not playing..
lorescale coatl (not enough ponder to justify it)
knight of reliquary (there isn't room)
kitchen finks (RWM strictly better)
vendillion clique (not green for NO, too easy to kill)
coldeyed selkie (only good if islandwalk)
sower of temptation (already 5 4cc)
mystic enforcer (already 5 4cc played)
nimble mongoose (weak and slow)

I'm playing Rafiq as both alternate NO target for when you have the Prog in hand or when it can win you the game that same turn and it doubles as a great hardcastable beatstick on his own.

I will cut a Qasali and a land for 2 Ponder. 17 lands and 4 noble hierarch is plenty. Do you disagree?

[chokin]

You should really go -4 QP for +1 Trygon, +1 SDT, +1 CB and one other card. Rafiq is ok. He makes RWM and TP a lot better because you get extra life or extra artifact/enchantment hate. Or if you magically get him and Progenitus out, it's like having a 20/10.

[Aggro_zombies]

You should really go -4 QP for +1 Trygon, +1 SDT, +1 CB and one other card. Rafiq is ok. He makes RWM and TP a lot better because you get extra life or extra artifact/enchantment hate. Or if you magically get him and Progenitus out, it's like having a 20/10.
22/11, actually.

Having an ass of three seems like a liability, though. Then again, if you play him after you stick Counterbalance, I could see it being okay.

EDIT: Why Rafiq over Empyrial Archangel or whatever it's called? Hardcasting Rafiq seems underwhelming when you have no evasive creatures other than Progenitus.

[Jon Stewart]

Being able to hardcast it is a big deal. 9 out of 10 times, you'll be hardcasting the second creature and NOing for Progenitus.




15 land
1 island
1 forest
1 dryad arbor

4 brainstorm
4 swords to plowshares
4 natural order
4 force of will
3 daze
3 counterbalance
3 sensei's divining top

4 noble hierarch
4 tarmogoyf
4 qasali pridemage
3 rhox war monk
1 rafiq of the many
1 progenitus

I will cut a Qasali and a land for 2 Ponder. 17 lands and 4 noble hierarch is plenty. Do you disagree?

With that creaturebase, Rafiq is a fantastic threat on it's own. You'll always have either a Goyf or RMW to break it in half.

Also with that list if I cut all 4 Qasali, I won't have any or much enchant/artifact destruction. I would cut one and a land to play CB Top but I really hate seeing multiples of either card. That combo has a very secondary role in the above list.

[chokin]

22/11, actually.

Having an ass of three seems like a liability, though. Then again, if you play him after you stick Counterbalance, I could see it being okay.

EDIT: Why Rafiq over Empyrial Archangel or whatever it's called? Hardcasting Rafiq seems underwhelming when you have no evasive creatures other than Progenitus.

Ah, you're right. 22/11. And yeah, he's vulnerable to Bolt, so as a finisher he is kinda weak. Maybe Jitte instead? Jitte makes all of your creatures much better. I've seen people randomly include it. I tried it and it can be stupid with RWM.

Empyrial Archangel isn't a bad option, but I see it as a sideboard card. It slows decks with burn, is nearly impossible for any single creature to take down, and it is a 7 powered flier.

[Rico Suave]

In theory, yes, the deck could have consistency issues, but in practice it works pretty well. You're running 8-12 filter cards, so it's not too hard to find the cards you need to fill the role you're trying to play. The mulligan is also a useful tool --- if you're playing against combo, you can mulligan the hand with no control cards, etc.

It's pretty hard to do all three at the same time, but I argue that you don't have to. You don't really have to be more than two at the same time. Against aggro, you want to be combo, but you can win by either gumming up the ground with your creatures or locking them out with CounterTop. Against control, you want to be aggro and control. It's nice, but not necessary to have the combo finish for when they're out of countermagic. Against combo, you want to be control with enough aggro or combo to kill them before they recover.

I can't think of a matchup where you have to be all three at the same time.

I know what the deck wants to be in particular matches.

My point was actually along the lines of whether the deck can consistently choose its role in those matches. ;)

One other point to note:

"Against aggro, you want to be combo, but you can win by either gumming up the ground with your creatures or locking them out with CounterTop."

I don't know why you phrase it this way. You *must* gum up the ground with creatures to win. The combo itself is not fast enough by itself to race aggro decks that routinely goldfish turn 4. The fastest possible win with Natural Order is on turn 5, which is too slow even if you're on the play.

That is just one problem, and there are other problems (like drawing creatures against combo) but I'm sure you get the point. I think it's a lot more complicated than either of us has made it out to be. I'll just leave it at that.

[Kuma]

@Kuma

It depends on the situation, of course. Your example describes a THREE land hand, which is not as troublesome as risky 1-2 lands, where you can be kicked out of the game directly.

How is it better to get a basic land when you only have one or two lands? If you fetch a basic, you're cutting yourself off of a color. If they have Stifle/Wasteland, you're cutting yourself off of two colors.

Okay, let's say you have Polluted Delta and Windswept Heath as your only lands in hand at the start of the game. Let's say you're on the play. You play Polluted Delta and fetch a basic Island. Your opponent plays Tropical Island and passes the turn.

Now you're in a pickle. If he has Stifle, he has cut you off from two colors and left you with one basic land as your only mana. If you fetch a dual land, he'll lock you out of two colors if he has a Wasteland.

But if you fetch a dual land turn one, and he has Stifle/Wasteland, you're only cut off of one color.

You're so afraid of having no lands on the table that you make decisions that are even more likely to lead to you being "kicked out of the game." Having just a basic land on the table is practically being kicked out of the game.

There are situations where you'd want to fetch a basic against a Stifle/Wasteland deck, such as if you mulled to five, had a fetchland as your only land, had a Sensei's Divining Top in hand, and needed to guarantee yourself mana to spin Top every turn. But in almost every other situation you're better off flooding the table with dual lands and daring him to waste them all.


I'm also not saying that you are forced to fetch for basics directly on the start, but if you draw/fetch into some it's enough, because the deck still runs fine with 2-3 mana (I usually board the combo out. As I said, I'm not having hard times against the deck, but I understand your arguments.

There is no reason to fetch even "some" basics in most games against decks with Stifle/Wasteland and without Wasteland recursion. If you don't understand the points I'm making, I can only hope you'll learn from your own experiences.


As I said, I'm not having hard times against the deck

I'm 4-3 against Canadian Threshold in large tournaments, but my three losses are against Dave Caplan and Ben Weinburg, while only one of my wins is from those players. This makes me think that the matchup is a little more problematic than my 4-3 record suggests, since I can't be sure how good the other players I beat are.

When they can use their burn to cut you off from five of your mana sources (four Noble Hierarchs and Dryad Arbor), you're going to have a hard time keeping mana against them, period. That's why I think the matchup is more problematic for us than for most other CounterTop lists.


Rafiq is ok. He makes RWM and TP a lot better because you get extra life or extra artifact/enchantment hate. Or if you magically get him and Progenitus out, it's like having a 20/10.

I don't think running even one Rafiq is worth it. For four mana, I'd rather cast Natural Order, and he's not a great Natural Order target in most situations since he turns any removal spell into a three-for-one.

If he had four toughness, I'd consider it, but while his upside is huge, he's just too vulnerable and too expensive to run.


I know what the deck wants to be in particular matches.

My point was actually along the lines of whether the deck can consistently choose its role in those matches. ;)


In theory, yes, the deck could have consistency issues, but in practice it works pretty well. You're running 8-12 filter cards, so it's not too hard to find the cards you need to fill the role you're trying to play. The mulligan is also a useful tool --- if you're playing against combo, you can mulligan the hand with no control cards, etc.


One other point to note:

"Against aggro, you want to be combo, but you can win by either gumming up the ground with your creatures or locking them out with CounterTop."

I don't know why you phrase it this way. You *must* gum up the ground with creatures to win. The combo itself is not fast enough by itself to race aggro decks that routinely goldfish turn 4. The fastest possible win with Natural Order is on turn 5, which is too slow even if you're on the play.

There's no way they're racing you if you stick CounterTop turn two and play Progenitus turn three or four. There's also Swords to Plowshares, Blue Blasts, and other countermagic to slow them down.


That is just one problem, and there are other problems (like drawing creatures against combo)


The mulligan is also a useful tool --- if you're playing against combo, you can mulligan the hand with no control cards, etc.

[Rico Suave]

Using the Mulligan so liberally in a control deck is the sign of a poorly built deck.

It's not a legitimate answer to consistency issues.



There's no way they're racing you if you stick CounterTop turn two and play Progenitus turn three or four. There's also Swords to Plowshares, Blue Blasts, and other countermagic to slow them down.

There's no way they're racing you if you stick CounterTop turn 2, especially if you have spot removal.

The Natural Order is basically irrelevant here.

[Shimi]

Sorry to break your NO discussion but I'm packing my Supreme Blue (the japanese version) and I really think Vedalken Shackels are very strong but I can't find 2 slot for them.Do you guys have any idea or opinion about what to cut and if it is great in play or just in paper?

[o13g]

There's no way they're racing you if you stick CounterTop turn 2, especially if you have spot removal.

The Natural Order is basically irrelevant here.

Aether Vial is a very good way to race 2nd turn CTB. I've learnt it the hard way the other day.

[sauce]

Sorry to break your NO discussion but I'm packing my Supreme Blue (the japanese version) and I really think Vedalken Shackels are very strong but I can't find 2 slot for them.Do you guys have any idea or opinion about what to cut and if it is great in play or just in paper?

thats what i did -2 trygon +2 shackles.

[alfthefurryalien]

@ Kuma


You are assuming they have one of each and are never going to tap out. If you fetch a basic island you can cast Top, Daze and BS or if you are running ponders. If you fetch island you have one land that cannot be touched the rest of the game. If there is never an opportunity to fetch ever again without them stifling your land you are going to lose if you don't draw any lands either way. If however you draw one land in the next few turns depending on what it is you can have access to the other color you need. If your opponents never tap out then you have plenty of time to find another land in the next few draws. If they dont put any pressure on you there is no reason to use that second fetch land until you absolutely need to cast something. There are ways to play around both stifle and wasteland. If not for wasteland why are you running basics? just for moon effects or back to basics? wasteland is much more played than either of those

[quicksilver]

In my opinion the way to beat wasteland is not with basics, but instead with more duals. Teh only time you would really want basics is agianst moon effects, recuring wasteland, or path to exile.

[Misplayer]

It really depends on the game situation, obviously. If I can sit on an Island and cantrip/spin Top then I'll fetch one early game. It's easy enough to go Fetch->Island, Fetch->Trop, Goyf and ignore Wasteland altogether. I agree with alf, where I feel better off with one non-Waste-able land that I can use to dig than having access to multiple colors early game.

In non-white builds, your most important spells are CMC2 (Goyf, CB, Confidant), meaning you're halfway to casting most of the business spells in your deck with just a basic Island out.

Obviously situations arise against decks with a mana-denial plan where you want G for Goyf and B for Bob (Sesame Street education unintented), but in those situations I try to resolve Confidant because if he sticks then he'll draw you into your Trops/Fetches.

Basically, against a known mana-denial deck, I'd have a hard time justifying laying down a dual over an Island, given the option. What is comes down to is that I'd rather have access to U than access to nothing, especially turn 1 when I'm looking to play Top or Ponder.

[alfthefurryalien]

how many lands are you planning on drawing each game? also what happens if you play vs something that can reccur wasteland? like loam or stax. You need to have a plan to deal with those decks as they are being played more, especially stax. If you are playing UBG you now have access to basics of all three colors and if you are playing UWG you have had that access. If you are 4c then wasteland and stifle are some of the strongest cards against you. Playing around stifle is simple, dont fetch until you need to and if you dont want to get wasted then fetch your basics. If you cant cast all your spells with all your basics in play you need to reevaluate your mana base.

[DragoFireheart]

Kuma, why is fetching a basic Island early on a bad idea against Stifle/Wasteland decks? By getting that island, you are ensuring that:

- You have a land that can never be touched.

- Blue source for Dazes (maybe spell snares) and your brainstorm/ponders.

- A mana source to look for more lands to find by using your D-top.


The idea of these tempo decks is to deny you mana so you can do nothing. By getting that island, you can at least ensure that you always have access to your spells that let you digg for more lands. I know from using TT that when someone god mana flooded, my games were much harder since I spent a few cards that ultimately did nothing more than stall the game. Tempo decks DON'T want to stall the game, they want to kill you quickly.

[quicksilver]

Kuma, why is fetching a basic Island early on a bad idea against Stifle/Wasteland decks? By getting that island, you are ensuring that:

- You have a land that can never be touched.

- Blue source for Dazes (maybe spell snares) and your brainstorm/ponders.

- A mana source to look for more lands to find by using your D-top.


The idea of these tempo decks is to deny you mana so you can do nothing. By getting that island, you can at least ensure that you always have access to your spells that let you digg for more lands. I know from using TT that when someone god mana flooded, my games were much harder since I spent a few cards that ultimately did nothing more than stall the game. Tempo decks DON'T want to stall the game, they want to kill you quickly.

You forgot that it also ensures you have one less color available, making it much easier for them to shut you off of a color.

[DragoFireheart]

You forgot that it also ensures you have one less color available, making it much easier for them to shut you off of a color.

But it makes it harder for them to completely mana deny you. They run only 8 ways to stop mana, while we have at least 18 colored sources.

[quicksilver]

But it makes it harder for them to completely mana deny you. They run only 8 ways to stop mana, while we have at least 18 colored sources.

A deck with only 8 land destruction spells it rare to completely shut you off of mana, and even so one mana isn't going to help too much. It's far more likely to shut you off of colors, so I don't see why would want to help them do that. The best way to fight wasteland is with more nonbasic lands.

[Rico Suave]

A deck with only 8 land destruction spells it rare to completely shut you off of mana, and even so one mana isn't going to help too much. It's far more likely to shut you off of colors, so I don't see why would want to help them do that. The best way to fight wasteland is with more nonbasic lands.

They don't have to be nonbasic lands.

But nevertheless, this is correct. The best way to fight Wasteland is to simply run more total land. This will cut into business, but decks with mana denial also tend to lack board control. This means that any resolved spell goes much further than it would against another deck, so even being color-screwed isn't the end of the world.

[alfthefurryalien]

so you cast a spell and they waste you and then destroy the one spell you cast (if it resolved) and they you are hoping to draw another land to cast your spell. in the mean time they are playing spells and god forbid they are running the attrocious combo of CBT in the same deck and have soft locked you out of the game. or they are setting up an engine that by the time you can play/ fetch your other land you have allready lost. I can't imagine CB deck playing more than 21 lands... how many more exactly does it take to make you wasteland proof? i bet it take 4 lands in your allready 19 ... they are called basics...

im just curious if you put up a list with 22 lands if people would agree with you. I think not playing and fetching your basics means you can run less lands and more business

[Rico Suave]

Fetching basics won't save you from Wastelands. They will still hit your Seas, Trops, or whatever non-basics you naturally draw.

Furthermore, you will color screw yourself. How do you play Thoughtseize turn 1, Counterbalance turn 2? You can't with basics. That is one example of many, so don't attack that specific example because I can give you dozens.

Wasteland will hit you whether you run 3 colors or 4, but the ultimate question becomes will it win the game if used? No, unless they knock you to 1 or 0 mana and then capitalize on that window.

[Argen]

Wasteland will hit you whether you run 3 colors or 4, but the ultimate question becomes will it win the game if used? No, unless they knock you to 1 or 0 mana and then capitalize on that window.

Or if they take out all your green and you can't cast creatures before their creatures kill you...

[Rico Suave]

Or if they take out all your green and you can't cast creatures before their creatures kill you...

Or you could cast your 1 green creature when you play the Tropical Island.

I mean we can go at this for days.

[Argen]

Or you could cast your 1 green creature when you play the Tropical Island.

I mean we can go at this for days.

Here's the thing: I lost top 8 at worlds because I didn't have a basic forest. My Tarmogoyf got submerged at end step and then he wasted my trop. If I had had a basic forest, I would have won that match. So, yeah, fetching basics saves you from Wastelands.

[Kuma]

Using the Mulligan so liberally in a control deck is the sign of a poorly built deck.

It's not a legitimate answer to consistency issues.

Last time I checked, every control deck runs enough cards that are dead in the combo matchup that they have to mulligan some hands because they won't beat combo. The main difference between my NO/CB list and those control decks is that my "dead" cards are mostly efficient creatures.

Which cards are worse versus combo? Sower of Temptation and Vedalken Shackles, or Natural Order and Qasali Pridemage?

You have to use the mulligan "liberally" against combo to win no matter what you're playing. Unless you're the kind of lucksack who gets CounterTop in every hand.

I don't have the kind of consistency issues you think I do. I don't know how else to say it.


There's no way they're racing you if you stick CounterTop turn 2, especially if you have spot removal.

The Natural Order is basically irrelevant here.

You have to kill them somehow. And it's not like Zoo doesn't run answers to Counterbalance.


@ Kuma
You are assuming they have one of each and are never going to tap out.

I'm not assuming that they have one of each. I'm assuming that they will have one or the other, which a deck like Canadian Threshold almost certainly will.


If you fetch a basic island you can cast Top, Daze and BS or if you are running ponders. If you fetch island you have one land that cannot be touched the rest of the game.

And that is very relevant against decks like Dragon Stompy, Stax, 43 land, and Aggro Loam. But against decks with finite land destruction like Canadian Threshold and Dreadstill, all you're doing is allowing them to cut you off from more colors with their land destruction.

Most CounterTop decks run thirteen or so cards that can produce or find a card that produces green mana. Decks like Canadian Threshold and Dreadstill run eight or so land destruction cards, about half of which have to be played immidiately on a fetchland. They're not going to be able to lock you out of green mana most of the time, let alone lock you out of mana entirely.


If however you draw one land in the next few turns depending on what it is you can have access to the other color you need.

That's my point. By flooding the table with dual lands, everytime you draw a fetchland or relevant dual, you have access to all your colors. If you just have a basic Island, you're only going to have access to two colors no matter what land you topdeck.

They're not going to destroy all your land in most games. This is a demonstrable, mathematical fact. There's no reason to handicap your mana flexibility based on this irrational fear.


If not for wasteland why are you running basics? just for moon effects or back to basics? wasteland is much more played than either of those

I'm running basics for Wastelock, Back to Basics, Moons, and situations like my Sensei's Divining Top example above.

22 mana sources >> 4 Wastelands.


In my opinion the way to beat wasteland is not with basics, but instead with more duals. Teh only time you would really want basics is agianst moon effects, recuring wasteland, or path to exile.

Thank you.


It really depends on the game situation, obviously. If I can sit on an Island and cantrip/spin Top then I'll fetch one early game. It's easy enough to go Fetch->Island, Fetch->Trop, Goyf and ignore Wasteland altogether. I agree with alf, where I feel better off with one non-Waste-able land that I can use to dig than having access to multiple colors early game.

You do it because you feel better?

*headdesk*

What's the point of having one land they can't Waste when you're going to spend the rest of the game playing lands they can Waste.

I'll say it again. Unless they're running Wastelock, they're not going to destroy all your lands in most games.

You guys are so afraid of a worst-case scenario that you're handicapping yourselves in most scenarios.


Basically, against a known mana-denial deck, I'd have a hard time justifying laying down a dual over an Island, given the option. What is comes down to is that I'd rather have access to U than access to nothing, especially turn 1 when I'm looking to play Top or Ponder.

I'd rather have access to G and U than access to U, which is what I'll have unless the number of Wastelands they have is greater than the number of mana sources I run. They have four Wastelands, and I have twenty-two mana sources.

Do the math.


But it makes it harder for them to completely mana deny you. They run only 8 ways to stop mana, while we have at least 18 colored sources.

How the hell are they going to completely deny you mana when by your admission they have eight ways to stop mana and you have eighteen mana sources?


so you cast a spell and they waste you and then destroy the one spell you cast (if it resolved) and they you are hoping to draw another land to cast your spell.

I love how you just argued against Misplayer, despite being on the same side as him, while thinking you're arguing against Rico Suave, quicksilver, and me.


im just curious if you put up a list with 22 lands if people would agree with you. I think not playing and fetching your basics means you can run less lands and more business

My twenty-two is actually eighteen land and four Noble Hierarch.

One caveat to everything I just said:

It may be beneficial to fetch basics, if you're running at least one of each color and four or five total, provided you have enough fetchlands in hand and in deck to do so in a reasonable amount of time and you fetch only basics. This would invalidate Wasteland while not doing much damage to your flexibility. But you're making their Stifles even better.

[alfthefurryalien]

did we not allready determine playing around stifle is relitivly easy? also you should no matter what have atleast 4 basics in your deck to be able to cast everything in your deck minus maybe Force off of. With Misty Rainforest UBG now has the chance to run them. And most CB decks are running enough fetches to get them. It is also posisble to draw ur basics..... Also this is not about side. If someone says something wrong I will correct them.

@ the 13 ways to find those green lands, how many of the non land ways could just be cast off of the island? ill bet its all of them...

@ nobel hierarchs... if you dont cast him turn 1 and instead you play a top of something similar and they waste said trop you fetched seems like you are cut off of all those precious green sources.. or god forbid they daze ur 0/1 and waste ur land....

[Misplayer]

Kuma, I respect your opinion and I appreciate you taking the time and effort to present your arguements. Without writing too too much (EDIT: I wrote a lot), here's some further explanation behind my rationale for fetching basics against a deck with Wastelands.

First, a couple caveats:
1. For the sake of this arguement (which is largely Wasteland-centric), all fetches are resolving
2. This Wasteland discussion is really only relevant in the early game. Mid/Late game, you obviously fetch all the duals you want because, as Kuma has said many times, you have MANY more duals than they have Wastelands and they're not going to be able to disrupt you at this point.
2. I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who would play the following CBTop list (ELD's list, or Nassif/R):

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Forest

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Trygon Predator
2 Sower of Temptation

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

3 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Krosan Grip

You'll probably notice immediately how light the color splashes in this deck are. If you count the colored mana requirements, you get the following numbers (Force of Will excluded): U - 23, G - 7, B - 4, R - 4. While this is a 4C deck, the splashes are as light as it gets. This decreases the relevance of getting shut off of a color significantly. The Forest is for Moon Effects/Waste-lock, etc. The Island is for those situations, PLUS against non-recurring Wasteland decks.

Let's say my opening grip looks like Goyf, Confidant, Bolt, U Sea, P Delta, Sensei's Top, Daze and I'm playing against Dreadstill on the play. I would, without hesitation, open with Delta->Island->Top. Sure, I've shut myself off green and red for the time being, but I'm confident that Confidant + Top will draw me into my other colors as I need them. If they Waste my U Sea, I'm fine with it at this point because I've already played what will likely be my lone black spell of the game, and I'm also probably about to tempo/card advantage the shit out of them because they've spent a land-drop Wasting a largely irrelevant land. They play a second Wasteland on their next turn with nothing to target. I use Top/Bob to draw into a Trop/Fetch, play Goyf, and again they irrelevantly Waste my Trop.

Ok, so, same hand, with the "fetch duals" logic. Turn 1 you open with Delta and pass because you don't want to shut yourself off green. Next turn, you play U Sea, Fetch Trop and play Bob. They waste your Trop, you draw into irrelevant cards and play Top. They Waste U Sea and now you're just hoping to rip ANY land to spin Top, and THEN dig for a second land to play Goyf. Being one land away from playing Goyf is a HUGE difference than being 2 lands away from playing Goyf. Mega-tempo loss for sure.

Sure, this scenario requires your opponent to have double Wasteland, but when you factor in Stifles it's not worth the risk when you're giving up almost nothing! In BOTH scenarios, you resolve Bob and are denied your green mana to play Goyf. In the first scenario, you still have Top + Island. In the second, you have no lands. Even if they have a single Waste in the second scenario, you're in the identical situation because the Black from your remaining Underground Sea is useless, PLUS if they rip a 2nd Wasteland before you can find another land, you're boned.

In order for Fetching a Trop in the above scenario to be the optimal play, your opponent has to not have opened with Wasteland. I'm not willing to take that gamble just to have access to green during a turn in which I won't use it. Why risk punting a game if they have double Waste when you could have played around it with ease? This is not an uncommon situation either.

I play the way I do because of personal experience. I've seen players get blown out by double Wasteland and I've been blown out by it as well. I can't think of a time that I lost a game because I fetched a basic in the face of a potential Wasteland instead of fetching a dual.

Now it gets tricky when you have a Volc and a Fetch with the same nonland cards. Then it's a real crap shoot. I think in that situation, I lead with an uncracked Fetch, and 2nd turn go for Confidant. It's all about what colors you need in the early game to execute your gameplan. With the Volc/Fetch hand, you NEED green or black plus one colorless to get rolling, so in that situation, I would NOT fetch a basic Island to play around Wasteland, because then you are tempo-ing yourself and gaining nothing because Island+Top+nothing is a weaker board position than Top+Confidant+nothing.

My 2 cents.

I just stayed 45 minutes late at work to write this post. Damn it.

[Rico Suave]

Here's the thing: I lost top 8 at worlds because I didn't have a basic forest. My Tarmogoyf got submerged at end step and then he wasted my trop. If I had had a basic forest, I would have won that match. So, yeah, fetching basics saves you from Wastelands.

I'd imagine if you fetched 2 Tropicals instead of a basic Island and Tropical Island you would have been OK. ;)

You left a lot of details out, namely the parts that mattered.


Last time I checked, every control deck runs enough cards that are dead in the combo matchup that they have to mulligan some hands because they won't beat combo. The main difference between my NO/CB list and those control decks is that my "dead" cards are mostly efficient creatures.

Which cards are worse versus combo? Sower of Temptation and Vedalken Shackles, or Natural Order and Qasali Pridemage?

You have to use the mulligan "liberally" against combo to win no matter what you're playing. Unless you're the kind of lucksack who gets CounterTop in every hand.

I don't have the kind of consistency issues you think I do. I don't know how else to say it.

There is a difference between using the mulligan to get Force of Will against Belcher or Leyline against Ichorid, versus using the mulligan because of inconsistency issues.

Are you going to mulligan a hand with no combo potential against Zoo?

[Argen]

I'd imagine if you fetched 2 Tropicals instead of a basic Island and Tropical Island you would have been OK. ;)

You left a lot of details out, namely the parts that mattered.

Well, this isn't the tournament reports forum nor is it story-time. The video coverage is out there and pretty easy to find. You can check it out and maybe it will change some of your assumptions. If it doesn't, that's cool too.

[Kuma]

Let's say my opening grip looks like Goyf, Confidant, Bolt, U Sea, P Delta, Sensei's Top, Daze and I'm playing against Dreadstill on the play. I would, without hesitation, open with Delta->Island->Top. Sure, I've shut myself off green and red for the time being, but I'm confident that Confidant + Top will draw me into my other colors as I need them.

That hand is kind of weak, as it needs to find good things with SDT and/or keep Dark Confidant alive. For your sake, I hope that they don't counter or kill that Dark Confidant. It's more likely for them to have the cards to do that than for them to have a Wasteland.

You've still got Top in this situation, which would let you dig for lands if they kill Dark Confidant. I said earlier that in some situations, you need to guarantee yourself SDT mana, and this might be one of them.


If they Waste my U Sea, I'm fine with it at this point because I've already played what will likely be my lone black spell of the game, and I'm also probably about to tempo/card advantage the shit out of them because they've spent a land-drop Wasting a largely irrelevant land. They play a second Wasteland on their next turn with nothing to target. I use Top/Bob to draw into a Trop/Fetch, play Goyf, and again they irrelevantly Waste my Trop.

What about the incredibly likely scenario in which they don't play a Wasteland?

Granted, your splashes are pretty light, and you're not running ridiculous casting costs like :w::u::g: and :g::g:, but this assumes you're going to keep that Bob, and have a Trop/Fetch in your top three. It seems more likely for one of the aforementioned situations to go wrong than for your opponent to have a Wasteland.


Ok, so, same hand, with the "fetch duals" logic. Turn 1 you open with Delta and pass because you don't want to shut yourself off green. Next turn, you play U Sea, Fetch Trop and play Bob. They waste your Trop, you draw into irrelevant cards and play Top.

Don't you think it's a little unfair to assume you're going to "Draw into [your] other colors as [you] need them" and "tempo/card advantage the shit out of them" if you fetch a basic, but you're going to "draw into irrelevant cards" if you fetch duals?


They Waste U Sea and now you're just hoping to rip ANY land to spin Top, and THEN dig for a second land to play Goyf. Being one land away from playing Goyf is a HUGE difference than being 2 lands away from playing Goyf. Mega-tempo loss for sure.
Sure, this scenario requires your opponent to have double Wasteland, but when you factor in Stifles it's not worth the risk when you're giving up almost nothing! In BOTH scenarios, you resolve Bob and are denied your green mana to play Goyf. In the first scenario, you still have Top + Island. In the second, you have no lands. Even if they have a single Waste in the second scenario, you're in the identical situation because the Black from your remaining Underground Sea is useless, PLUS if they rip a 2nd Wasteland before you can find another land, you're boned.

I'd rather run the risk of needing Bob and Top to find lands, than cut myself off colors because they might have double Wasteland and Stifle.

I'll grant you that maybe if your splashes are really light, light enough that :b: and :u: is only marginally better than :u:, then you might be better off fetching a basic.

But you've got to realize that if everything goes wrong for you and right for your opponent that you're going to lose no matter what you fetch.


In order for Fetching a Trop in the above scenario to be the optimal play, your opponent has to not have opened with Wasteland. I'm not willing to take that gamble just to have access to green during a turn in which I won't use it. Why risk punting a game if they have double Waste when you could have played around it with ease? This is not an uncommon situation either.

It's about 60% likely your opponent doesn't open with a Wasteland in his hand, given that he even runs them. Are you going to fetch basics if you're unsure that your opponent runs Wasteland? I hope not.

And even if your opponent does open with Wasteland, if he doesn't have a lot of mana in his hand, he may opt to use it for mana instead of wasting your lands. He doesn't know how effective that Wasteland will be.

I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I'm pretty sure that double Wasteland in a deck that runs it as a four-of is <10% likely. Besides, double Wasteland hands often get thrown back for lack of colored mana.

Let's face it, if you kept a land light hand like the one in your example, and your opponent draws double Wasteland and some number of Stifles, you're losing the game anyway. You might as well play to give yourself an advantage in games you can actually win.

Yes, you can play not to lose to double Wasteland, but doing so will hurt your chances of winning if your opponent draws one or zero Wastelands.


I play the way I do because of personal experience. I've seen players get blown out by double Wasteland and I've been blown out by it as well. I can't think of a time that I lost a game because I fetched a basic in the face of a potential Wasteland instead of fetching a dual.

I lost a game on MWS yesterday because my opponent drew four Wastelands in his top fifteen cards. I didn't fetch a single basic in that match. Do I regret it? Not at all. When I was fetching, I had no idea he was going to draw that much land destruction. In the highly likely event I see zero Wastelands, my play would have been correct. Even if I fetched a basic, I'd have been so far in the hole I still would have lost. Magic is a game of hidden information. Sometimes all you can do is make the play that has the highest chance of working out best for you.

I can think of games I lost because I fetched the wrong dual, but I can't think of games where I lost because I didn't fetch a basic.

One time, I fetched out all my basics versus an unknown opponent. Turns out he was playing Zoo with Path to Exile. He pathed one of my creatures and I couldn't find a basic. That's what started me thinking.


There is a difference between using the mulligan to get Force of Will against Belcher or Leyline against Ichorid, versus using the mulligan because of inconsistency issues.

Are you going to mulligan a hand with no combo potential against Zoo?

It depends.

If I have a quick Rhox War Monk, double Tarmogoyf, CounterTop, etc., then no, I'm not going to mulligan a hand with no combo potential.

It's not like I need Natural Order to beat Zoo.

[undone]

I lost a game on MWS yesterday because my opponent drew four Wastelands in his top fifteen cards. I didn't fetch a single basic in that match. Do I regret it? Not at all. When I was fetching, I had no idea he was going to draw that much land destruction. In the highly likely event I see zero Wastelands, my play would have been correct. Even if I fetched a basic, I'd have been so far in the hole I still would have lost. Magic is a game of hidden information. Sometimes all you can do is make the play that has the highest chance of working out best for you.

I can think of games I lost because I fetched the wrong dual, but I can't think of games where I lost because I didn't fetch a basic.

One time, I fetched out all my basics versus an unknown opponent. Turns out he was playing Zoo with Path to Exile. He pathed one of my creatures and I couldn't find a basic. That's what started me thinking.

Seems to be having one basic means you have a 100% chance of getting to two (a pretty important number) with a hard land and you can fight a stifle on fetches. Playing two gives you a strong change to get a 100% chance to play daze proof spells off a solid land

Two islands is probably right (well maby island forest now but whatever) nassif had it right IMO because 2 gives you daze proof spells which is how you win.

[DragoFireheart]

Some of this has probably already been said, but I wanted to post some of my own personal experience with Lorescale Coalt (http://sales.starcitygames.com//carddisplay.php?product=56214).

I've decided that I really don't care too much for Lorescale Coalt after doing some testing. Some problems with him:


- A turn or two he starts out small, letting burn kill him.

- Dies to Hexmage nonsense.

- Bounce spells essentially remove him by making him small AND making us recast him.


Basically, I have found that while he can be a nice big beater, he requires too much setup to be fast enough to race combo decks and is too small and slow for aggro matchups. I could maybe see him being good for fighting slower control decks, but otherwise he is underwhelming.


I have, however, found Rhox War Monk to be exactly what this deck needs: a big fat beater that can slow aggro decks done and make life difficult for combo decks by forcing them to deal more damage. Lifelink is a relevant ability, and while he is a bit more difficult to cast than Coalt, I've found it's worth the extra effort to use him in CounterTop.

[sauce]

got my bunghole gaped this weekend by goblins and merfolk running the japanese list. -2 trygon +2 shackles main.

granted they all had the nuts hands vs me in all 4 games..
merfolk gm1 - 2 wasteland + LoA that was protected by double fow.
merfolk gm2 - 3 wasteland + LoA + 2 mutavaults and no stp for me.
goblins gm1 - 3 wastelands + 3 chained ringleaders (into ringleaders+stuff)
goblins gm2 - t1 wasteland, t2 wasteland, t3 wasteland and t4 wasteland.. then i finally draw into enough lands to cast shackles and have firespout in hand.. he drops goblin chieftain swings me down to 15.. i untap and play shackles. he untaps and drops double piledriver, swings for 14, im at 1, i untap and firespout and he follows up with a ringleader. gg..

pretty disappointing outing for me.

[chokin]

Some of this has probably already been said, but I wanted to post some of my own personal experience with Lorescale Coalt (http://sales.starcitygames.com//carddisplay.php?product=56214).

I've decided that I really don't care too much for Lorescale Coalt after doing some testing. Some problems with him:


- A turn or two he starts out small, letting burn kill him.

- Dies to Hexmage nonsense.

- Bounce spells essentially remove him by making him small AND making us recast him.


Basically, I have found that while he can be a nice big beater, he requires too much setup to be fast enough to race combo decks and is too small and slow for aggro matchups. I could maybe see him being good for fighting slower control decks, but otherwise he is underwhelming.


I have, however, found Rhox War Monk to be exactly what this deck needs: a big fat beater that can slow aggro decks done and make life difficult for combo decks by forcing them to deal more damage. Lifelink is a relevant ability, and while he is a bit more difficult to cast than Coalt, I've found it's worth the extra effort to use him in CounterTop.

In my UGw build, I've been running RWM lately because of his big butt. I used to run Coatl in his place. They both can be good. RWM has a relevant ability and is out of Bolt range, but he is a little tougher to cast (trying to keep all 3 colors out against Tempo Thresh is kind of a pain). Coatl requires either CBTop already established, a Brainstorm handy, 2 Tops, some luck, or some counters. It's not impossible to have any of these. One of the coolest things with Coatl is he turns extra Tops and mana into extra power. It's all about meta, playstyle, and preference.

EDIT: @sauce - You just got really unlucky. 2-4 Wastelands every game? Maybe you should have sandbagged your fetch a little. I played Pithing Needles in my sideboard to help against Wasteland. I've been happy with it. It would have helped in your situation a lot. Needle on Wasteland and Vial, and on Mutavault for Merfolk. I ran one Shackles in my sideboard and only got to use it twice in a game, but it was stupid good and a surprise. I almost ran Sower over it, but opted not to because it's more likely to be removed and Shackling a better creature is always nice.

[Misplayer]

That hand is kind of weak, as it needs to find good things with SDT and/or keep Dark Confidant alive. For your sake, I hope that they don't counter or kill that Dark Confidant. It's more likely for them to have the cards to do that than for them to have a Wasteland.

I disagree that the hand is weak. While not a god-draw, it’s certainly solid. T1 Top, T2 Confidant is a strong opening, and the opponent will need an equally strong hand to overcome it, especially because of the backup provided by Daze. I remember when CBTop Thresh lists played 17 or 18 land, because with 3/4 Top, 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder and a mana curve mostly around 1-2 that’s all you would need. 1-land hands were keepable with those lists. Nassif-style lists run ~20 land because of Shackles, Sower and fewer cantrips, but still 2-land hands are VERY keepable. But I’m way off topic right now.


What about the incredibly likely scenario in which they don't play a Wasteland?

Then I get to look at 5 cards in the next 2 turns with Top/Bob. And I’m probably going to miss a land drop anyway protecting Bob with Daze. And if I’m not drawing lands, then I’m probably drawing one of the ~23 cards I can play off UB. I admit this is all anecdotal and extremely variable. But in my experience, I’ve found these situations to work themselves out.


Granted, your splashes are pretty light, and you're not running ridiculous casting costs like :w::u::g: and :g::g:

I think this is one of the reasons we have such divergent opinions about manabase strategy against Wasteland. The versions of CounterTop we each play have significantly different mana requirements.


Don't you think it's a little unfair to assume you're going to "Draw into [your] other colors as [you] need them" and "tempo/card advantage the shit out of them" if you fetch a basic, but you're going to "draw into irrelevant cards" if you fetch duals?

Yes. Anecdotal and hypothetical evidence is weak and I admit this. I’m really just trying to provide some insight into my thought process for fetching basics.


I'd rather run the risk of needing Bob and Top to find lands, than cut myself off colors because they might have double Wasteland and Stifle.

I'll grant you that maybe if your splashes are really light, light enough that :b: and :u: is only marginally better than :u:, then you might be better off fetching a basic.

But you've got to realize that if everything goes wrong for you and right for your opponent that you're going to lose no matter what you fetch.

Understood. Again, the build I’m talking about can afford to fetch basics and not hinder it’s gameplan as significantly as a UWGr/UWG-NO list with War Monk.


It's about 60% likely your opponent doesn't open with a Wasteland in his hand, given that he even runs them. Are you going to fetch basics if you're unsure that your opponent runs Wasteland? I hope not.

No. Against an unknown opponent I lead with U Sea into Top. If they Waste, then I’ll probably fetch an Island so that regardless of their disruption I’m always one fetch away from playing any card in my hand.


And even if your opponent does open with Wasteland, if he doesn't have a lot of mana in his hand, he may opt to use it for mana instead of wasting your lands. He doesn't know how effective that Wasteland will be.

I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I'm pretty sure that double Wasteland in a deck that runs it as a four-of is <10% likely. Besides, double Wasteland hands often get thrown back for lack of colored mana.

When I’m piloting a deck with Wasteland and I know I’m up against Thresh/CounterTop, I’ll keep that double Waste hand for sure because I know they’ll usually have a very difficult time recovering from it, while my deck is designed to throw away 3-4 (waste)lands and get little to no mana production out of them.


One time, I fetched out all my basics versus an unknown opponent. Turns out he was playing Zoo with Path to Exile. He pathed one of my creatures and I couldn't find a basic. That's what started me thinking.

I wouldn’t fetch all my basics unless I was playing against Moon strategy/Waste-lock. One Island is nice because you can cantrip and spin top, and you’re 1 land away from playing most of the best spells in your deck. Fetching an Island guarantees you won’t get blown out by Wasteland with minimal drawbacks (in the build I play), and that’s how I prefer to play. Different strokes for different folks (and builds), I guess.

[easyrider]

For Probasco style Counter/Top, what is the best sideboard plan against Goblins and Zoo?

Here's my list:

4 Strand
4 Rainforest
4 Trop
2 Volcanic
2 Academy Ruins
5 Island
1 Forest

3 Sower of Temptation
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Trinket Mage

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
3 Ponder
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Vedalken Shackles

Obviously the biggest exclusion is Swords to Plowshares, so I'm already weaker against aggressive strategies. Against Goblins, if I survive comfortably long enough to start playing Control Magics I can win, but against Zoo, sometimes I need to fetch a Needle for Pridemage before I can do anything and by then I am too far behind.

For Goblins, I was thinking 3 Firespout, 3 Hydroblast, 1 Pithing Needle. This seems like it would be a major improvement over Game One.

For Zoo, it would just be 3 Firespout, 1 Pithing Needle. I'm not sure if this is enough to put things in my favor.

Is that enough for Goblins? What else should I add to improve the Zoo matchup?

[HAVE HEART]

Hi , I was just watching Pro Tour Austin and see that Knight of Relicary is just as powerfull as Goyf is.Someone tested an CBTop with Relicary?

Pro Tour Austin was using the Extended format for its constructed portion. Extended and Legacy are very different formats. For example, the winning list was using Grove of the Burnwillows, Punishing Fire, and Baneslayer Angel in the same deck. Baneslayer has seen some play, but in general, these cards are not considered Legacy-playable.

[gamegeek2]

For Probasco style Counter/Top, what is the best sideboard plan against Goblins and Zoo?

Here's my list:

4 Strand
4 Rainforest
4 Trop
2 Volcanic
2 Academy Ruins
5 Island
1 Forest

3 Sower of Temptation
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Trinket Mage

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
3 Ponder
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Vedalken Shackles

Obviously the biggest exclusion is Swords to Plowshares, so I'm already weaker against aggressive strategies. Against Goblins, if I survive comfortably long enough to start playing Control Magics I can win, but against Zoo, sometimes I need to fetch a Needle for Pridemage before I can do anything and by then I am too far behind.

For Goblins, I was thinking 3 Firespout, 3 Hydroblast, 1 Pithing Needle. This seems like it would be a major improvement over Game One.

For Zoo, it would just be 3 Firespout, 1 Pithing Needle. I'm not sure if this is enough to put things in my favor.

Is that enough for Goblins? What else should I add to improve the Zoo matchup?

This format has so many aggressive decks that I think running at least 3 maindeck explosives and/or firespout is necessary. I think you need at least 4 of these effects as you have no swords.

[thefreakaccident]

Would you rather pay 3 to tutor for 0-1 cc artifacts... Or 3 for goyf/counterbalance/dark confidant...

Dimir Infiltrator

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=87987


I could think of a list, but i've already put a list in the NQS thread...

Here is the list i'm using:

lands//20
2 bayou
4 tropical island
3 underground sea
1 island
4 misty rainforest
3 polluted delta
2 verdant catacombs
1 forest

creatures//17
4 tarmogoyf
3 dark confidant
3 dimir infiltrator
3 spellstutter sprite
1 trygon predator
1 eternal witness
1 sower of temptation
1 squee, goblin naboob


spells//23
3 counterbalance
2 survival of the fittest
4 brainstorm
4 sensei's divining top
4 force of will
3 daze
2 smother
1 umezawa's jitte

sideboard//
4 engineered plague
4 relic of progenitus
3 krosan grip
2 null rod
2 mesmiric fiend (need something 2cc for combo/control)

[RogueMTG]

You really can't compare Dimir Infiltrator to Trinket Mage. Having the 2/2 body come into play is relevant, it makes it a 2 for 1. Infiltrator seems super slow and doesn't generate card advantage. I'd rather just have a draw spell and play more good cards to draw into.

[thefreakaccident]

Infiltrator is a little on the slow side... but the ability of being able to grab any of your powerful cards is well worth it... Its 3 mana... uncounterable (aside from stifle).... what else could you want?

Obviously you want cantrips, but in my list, you have 8 cantrips already (DIF played 8 in his Ugw list for a long time)... Having the ability to tutor is just the next best thing though... why waste turns playing ponders into nothing, when you can get the card right now?

Obviously, infiltrator cannot seek out lands like cantrips can, but that's why i incorperated a few more lands (also allowing the use of survival in the list).

And it is a good card to draw into, as it sets up one of your most powerful spells for the next turn (i guess i am beating a dead horse here... but uncounterable tutor!)...

Plus, being blue has advantages to the list (Fow) and being a creature is also an advantage to the list (survival once you've tutored for what you want)...


The card seems slow, but please don't just knock it before you try it, that happens too often on this site, and it keeps the format from progressing as it should... What people should do is test these crazy ideas, because once in a while someone will have found something extremely off the radar that is pretty damned good.

[Ch@os]

You forgot the main fact; cc3 at sorcery speed, thats not impressive and in some matchups impossible to cast.
Ponder only costs 1 mana we can afford that at sorceryspeed.

[Skeggi]

Why do you want a tutor in a deck with 7-8 Fetches, 6-8 Cantrips and 4 Tops?

Ok, I understand your build is different, and I'm real happy for you and I'll let you finish... oh wait, let's not turn this into some Kanye thing...

What I meant to say, in your build you already run 2 Survivals. Why spend more slots on bad tutors that can double as lousy creatures?

I understand all the pros you name and I respect them. Really, I do. But the bottom line is, and here's a reality-check, the card stinks. I never needed a tutor in CounterTop because I have enough ways to manipulate my library. I certainly don't want a tutor costing 3 mana. So your opponent can't counter it. So what? He'll just counter the Goyf I got, which won't come as a surprize next turn, I can tell you. Next to that, if you need a creature then and there, this is one heck of a shitty creature to drop. Just to underline here: the fact that this tutor is uncounterable really doesn't matter.

[bokepa]

This is the list i've been using in my meta that have lots of agroo with good results.

It's control oriented but having in mind that Vedalken Shakles and Sower of Temptation don't work well in current meta full of burn and arti/enc hate. This is my try of evoluting CounterTop. I got Hanni idea of Wog + Elspeth and tried to adapt it to my playstile. This is the resulting list:

Things i dont like about it: Too low blue card count, double white costs. Any suggestions and improvements welcome.

4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Academy Ruins
1 Savanah

4 Tarmo
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Knight of the Reliquary

2 Elspeth
2 EE
2 Wing Shards
4 StoP
4 Force Of Will
3 Daze
4 CB
4 Top
4 BS
2 Ponder

SB
2 WoG -> (Also tryed Day of Judgement with Knight of the Holy Nimbus but it proved subpar)
2 Kitchen Finks (Better than RWM with WoG and vs REB)
2 Path to Exile
2 Trygon Predator -> vs mirror and stax
2 Krosan Grip -> vs mirror and stax
2 Pithing Needle
3 Spell Pierce


Cards explanations:

Knight of the Reliquary: Acts as Tarmo 5-6 and allows me to search for Academy Ruins lategame.

Elspeth: Sometimes is broken, sometimes is just good. Works good with the great amount of removal.

Wing Shards: (Card Description: Instant - Target players sacrifices an attacking creature. Storm)
Is eating Progenitus and 20/20 lands all day. Its easy to clean all the board vs bad agroo players. Its also good vs Mongoose but its too hard to cast vs Thresh.


SB:

Countertop is very hated nowadays. People usually board in Krosan Grips and some number of REB. So i usually board out CB.

vs Zoo/Gobos: EE and the good amount of removal gives us a good probility to win game 1. All gobo/zoo players in my area are very bad and eat wing shards all day becouse they cast spells before attacking. Vs a pro i think the matchup will be 50/50 if not favorable to us.

SIDE:(they bring Kgrip and REB, if they also bring Choke, Trygon and Kgrip maybe needed. vs gobos Needle is more useful than PtoE):
-4 CB
-2 Knight of the Reliquary
+2 PtoE
+2 Finks
+2 WoG

vs Merfolk: This is harder but doable. Vial and Lord must die. I usually cast EE blindly at 1 when i see islands just for vial. Versions without stifle for Wing Shards, EE and fechlands are much easier.

SIDE (They will bring kira to combat our removal, and submerge. Its key to resolve a WOG):
-2 Ponder
-1 CB
-1 Top
-2 Knight of the Reliquary
+2 Spell Pierce
+2 Needle
+2 WoG

vs Combo: First game could be hard couse you have lots of dead cards but a CB or a good counter can make you win. Maybe more SIDE vs combo is needed but there isnt much in my meta.

SIDE (They will bring chain of vapor and more duress chants):
-2 Wings Shards
-4 StoP
-2 Elspeth
+2 Needle (Stops charbelcher, name a fetchland or top vs TES)
+3 Spell Pierce
+2 Trygon
+1 Finks

[Volrath]

I do think that 2 or 3 spells with a CMC of 4 are a good way to go.

It helps in the landstill MU, Elspeth also wrecks his Elspeth's when resloved but also yours..

I play Sower, but with so much removal (burn) i went with Lightning Angel(stops aggro cold,is blue for force and ends the game quickly)

Laugh if you will, and i know you will but it is working for me ATM, but still i think it's not optimal as a 4CMC creature.

Suggestions?

[Draener]

I like the idea of wing shards quite a bit, but how hard is it to get the double white?

[Shimi]

I like the idea of wing shards quite a bit, but how hard is it to get the double white?

The ideia is great but it is just worth against Progenitus and at the momoment NO/Progenitus did not scare me.

[Happy Gilmore]

Countertop is very hated nowadays. People usually board in Krosan Grips and some number of REB. So i usually board out CB.

vs Zoo/Gobos: EE and the good amount of removal gives us a good probility to win game 1. All gobo/zoo players in my area are very bad and eat wing shards all day becouse they cast spells before attacking. Vs a pro i think the matchup will be 50/50 if not favorable to us.

SIDE:(they bring Kgrip and REB, if they also bring Choke, Trygon and Kgrip maybe needed. vs gobos Needle is more useful than PtoE):
-4 CB
-2 Knight of the Reliquary
+2 PtoE
+2 Finks
+2 WoG



You know what is better than killing CB with Krosan Grip? Not even having to cast it because your opponent is stupid enough to take out the primary reason they beat you. Taking out CB because they have Krosan Grips is the most retarded idea I have ever heard. How are you going to answer all the swords effects that zoo can throw at you? Landstill for instance has tons of mass removal, yet zoo crushes it. And if your bringing in EE you're either going to give K-Grip a target or find yourself getting hit by splash damage when your own Goyfs are on the board. Mass removal is great, but its not a substitute. You need both to beat a consistent agro deck.

[SpencerForHire]

@Wing Shards:
Situational cards are bad. You're talking about removal that is 1W more expensive than your current removal, more dependent on what is happening (the creature has to be attacking) and this is all for a single creature in a single matchup. I'm sorry that just seems dreadful.


All gobo/zoo players in my area are very bad and eat wing shards all day because they cast spells before attacking. I understand it can be good against aggro, but we're talking about slower removal just on the off chance you live long enough to storm the bloody thing to net some sort of advantage. Sideboarding for an advantage against the players you should already beating also seems pretty weak.

[Draener]

I'm not so sure. Goblin players will often drop a goblin on their first main phase as a pump or removal. Wingshards also lets you turn a brainstorm into another swords if you happen to have the mana. It would be sideboard and not more than two, but I could see it useful in enough matchups to be considered.

[alfthefurryalien]

vs goblins they are not even necessarily casting goblins. Vial and Cycling dont add to storm. Unless they are chaining multiple pile drivers to kill you you wont get much out of shards. Even if it does storm for maybe two or three vs them by that time they have so many guys out they can just sac extra matrons or something that is not atking for lethal. The card is very situational and maybe yes the one time it resolves it gets a Hydra but the game is not even over at that point.

[SpencerForHire]

vs goblins they are not even necessarily casting goblins. Vial and Cycling dont add to storm. Unless they are chaining multiple pile drivers to kill you you wont get much out of shards. Even if it does storm for maybe two or three vs them by that time they have so many guys out they can just sac extra matrons or something that is not atking for lethal. The card is very situational and maybe yes the one time it resolves it gets a Hydra but the game is not even over at that point.

You said this pretty well.

The fact of the matter is that even the situation described as a "good use" for this card is so situational I can't help but think of the many games you will lose from having this in hand even against the decks you want it against.

[Bardo]

Besides, CT plays an outrageous number of sorcery-speed cards (Top/Ponder, Creatures/CB), it will be very difficult to play Wing Shards for profit. Better off playing Exile, and that card is shit.

[bokepa]

vs goblins they are not even necessarily casting goblins. Vial and Cycling dont add to storm. Unless they are chaining multiple pile drivers to kill you you wont get much out of shards. Even if it does storm for maybe two or three vs them by that time they have so many guys out they can just sac extra matrons or something that is not atking for lethal. The card is very situational and maybe yes the one time it resolves it gets a Hydra but the game is not even over at that point.


I have 6 MD options to getting rid of Vial, 2 being recursive so don't rely on them using it much. And with all the removal the deck has, they will not have many goblins around so the cycling wont be worth much. Yes its bad vs SGC but every card has its flaws.

It's very easy to 2 for 1 with it. Let's face it, no one expects it.

Anyway for people that don't like Wing Shards, you can do the following changes:
-2 Wing Shards
+2 Oblivion Ring

or

-2 Knight of the Reliquary
-1 Savanah
-2 Wing Shards
+2 Kithcen Finks // RWM
+1 Academy Ruins
+2 Wrath of God

I like Wing Shards more as its easier to cast and I dont like killing my own Tarmo with EE and with WoG. And i like the 2 for 1 vs the Oblivion ring 1-1 (and it gets destroyed a lot). It maybe also interesting to try:
WoG + Finks + Ajani Goldmane instead of Elspeth

Also what people think about Jotun Grunt? I know its seems bad as it dies alone vs any deck that dont use gy. It will die fast as we dont run enough cantrips to sustain it. But almost all decks use the gy or plays tarmo, even combo sometimes gets Tarmo/ Nightstalker sideboard to smash faces. Also it can make Vedalken Shakles better, shrinking Tarmos and Knights to steal them.

What other replacements are there for Wing shards that take care of creatures?

- RWM
- Vedalken Shakles (Easily handled and too slow in todays meta)
- Sower of Temptation (Easily handled and too slow in todays meta)
- Path to Exile (Giving a land can be a huge drawback and CT gets you out of removal)
- Condemn (Conditional and CT gets you out of removal)
- Oblivion Ring
- Giltspire Avenger (Meh)
- Bant Charm (Hard to cast)
- Hail Storm (Doesn't do shit nowadays)

Anything i have forgotten and good enough to test??

Out of color:
- Firespout
- Maelstorm Pulse
- Putrefy
- Smother
- Diabolic Edict
It's worth splashing a 4th color just for extra removal? I dont think so.

[bokepa]

I do think that 2 or 3 spells with a CMC of 4 are a good way to go.

It helps in the landstill MU, Elspeth also wrecks his Elspeth's when resloved but also yours..

I play Sower, but with so much removal (burn) i went with Lightning Angel(stops aggro cold,is blue for force and ends the game quickly)

Laugh if you will, and i know you will but it is working for me ATM, but still i think it's not optimal as a 4CMC creature.

Suggestions?


I also feel that having 2 cards with cc 4 helps. Lighting Angel seems hard to cast but i can see it being run in a supreme blue list focused more on agroo and less on control. It will warp more the curve of the deck and good luck with mana denial strategies tho.

[Skeggi]

I'm just going to ignore the posts with all the Wing Shards talk. Let me share the list with you I played last Sunday at a 42 player tournament, where I ended 7th after 7 rounds of Swiss. It's an adaptation on the Japanese Supreme Blue.

ADHD Toppurz: Sexy Phun, Random Beatz!

Kreaturz:
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Trygon Predator
2 Sower of Temptation

KounturTop:
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Kountur & Kantripz:
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder

Kreatur Kontrol:
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Firespout
1 Wrath of God
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Klimat Kontrol (Lendz!):
3 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarns
2 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Nantuko Monastery

Konfusy Sideburd:
2 Pithing Needle
1 Stifle
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Spell Snare
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Wrath of God
1 Umezawa's Jitte

The basics are there: 4 Tarmogoyf, 4 Counterbalance, 4 Sensei's Divining Top, 4 Swords to Plowshares, 4 Force of Will and 4 Brainstorm, but every slot that doesn't require being a 4 -of isn't. I like my deck to be as versatile as possible, leaving the option of finding an answer as high as possible. Every card falls into a different strategy, but some cover more. Umezawa´s Jitte is creature control but also lifegaining. Trygon Predator is an enchantment killer but also a creature. And so on and so forth.

I´ll explain a few weird choices in the deck:

Basic Mountain: very bad. I included it because I used to run 3 Volcanic Islands, but I only had 7 fetches at the time. I wanted 8 fetches to reduce the randomness of the deck, so I had to cut a Volcanic Island. The problem then was, what I encountered before, is that a deck like Merfolk would simply Waste my few red sources and I would have no way of casting Firespout. Something you really want against Merfolk. That's why I included a basic Mountain. And it's terribad :wink: I might get back on that decision.

Nantuko Monastery: this card in your opening 7 is downright disastrous. But later it's a much better topdeck than any other land. Because it's actually a 4/4 first striker for cmc0, uncounterable, with an upkeep of WG. That's pretty good mid- to lategame, I can tell you.

Wrath of God: this card is an addition to the Firespouts. I used to run 4 Firespout, but then I came to the problem that I saw my Tarmogoyfs and RWM's getting killed, while facing a Tombstalker or Tarmogoyf on the other side of the table. Firespout does absolutely nothing against those big boys, but God does. Thanks to insanely broken Sensei's Divining Top + 8 fetchlands, it's reasonably ok to find. Next to that you also have 4 Brainstorms and 1 Ponder. Game 2, you can side an extra WoG in, and you can mull to a hand which is likely to find a WoG or has a WoG, because against some decks, a resolved WoG with CounterTop in play = win.

The sideboard: how Nassifish is that, huh? As I said before, I like multiple options. I'm going to try and fit a Gaddock Teeg in, and the obvious thing to go would be a Pithing Needle, because, let's face it, there are 2 in there. But I'm not sure, because Pithing Needle is a must have against our most difficult match-up: Landstill. So, something else is likely to be dropped. Probably Hydroblast.

As for a very short tournament report:

Round 1: Supreme Blue: Draw.
Round 2: Enchantress: Win.
Round 3: Tempo Thresh: Draw.
Round 4: ANT: Win.
Round 5: Landstill: Draw.
Round 6: Soa'S (UGRW CounterTop): Win.
Round 7: Eva Green: Win.

So I ended 4-0-3: I have not lost a single match. Quite good for a random list, huh? :smile:

P.S. As for you guys keeping track of meta and whatnot. That's 2 CounterTop decks I encountered, having played one myself, that number is actually 3. Who says CounterTop is on the decline? It's on the rise, I can tell you! There was some Merfolk in the tournament, but only 3 lists or so. Merfolk is on the decline here because of Supreme Blue.

[Draener]

No zoo match-ups there I see. Have you tested your list against zoo? How does your list fair?

[o13g]

No zoo match-ups there I see. Have you tested your list against zoo? How does your list fair?

Zoo has proven to be a very positive matchup for Firespout/CBT decks at least per our testing.

[Skeggi]

Yes, I've tested against Zoo. In other tournaments I also played against Zoo with a different version of Supreme Blue, where RWM proved to be solid gold. Another important thing is to stop Pridemage, so you can lock them with CounterTop. If you can't stop Pridemage, you're in for a heap of trouble, but then again, you're probably doing it wrong :wink:. You have quite alot of tools to fight Pridemage: FoW, Daze, StP, Firespout, WoG, Sower and ofcourse Counterbalance itself. Sower seems bad against Zoo, but if you can protect it, it's pretty good. You can steal Pridemage with Sower, forcing your opponent to sac it to something useless, or you can sac Pridemage to your own Top, drawing a card in response. You don't have to sac Pridemage as long as you can keep Sower, ofcourse, but these examples are just to illustrate some plays you could make.

[alfthefurryalien]

I have 6 MD options to getting rid of Vial, 2 being recursive so don't rely on them using it much. And with all the removal the deck has, they will not have many goblins around so the cycling wont be worth much. Yes its bad vs SGC but every card has its flaws.



So at the earliest your answers to vial come online turn 2 (excluding FoW) and thats if you spend your first two turns killing it with EE. If you use pridemage you can kill it turn three by which they can already cast possibly 2 dudes. Im not saying those are bad answers to vial im just saying that if you are dedicating your early turns dealing with vial you are not going to have time to cast your 3 CC sorcery

[bokepa]

So at the earliest your answers to vial come online turn 2 (excluding FoW) and thats if you spend your first two turns killing it with EE. If you use pridemage you can kill it turn three by which they can already cast possibly 2 dudes. Im not saying those are bad answers to vial im just saying that if you are dedicating your early turns dealing with vial you are not going to have time to cast your 3 CC sorcery

Test it. You have goyf, stop, knight and counters to buy time. You dont need to wing shards on turn3. You wing shards when you see the oppotunity. You can also daze your own brainstorm (and pay for it) to kill 3 with any help of your oponent if you are desesperate. You are turning your instant cantrips and extra counters to removal.

Wing Shars vs Firespout

Firespout can be better maybe. But i want to stay 3 colors. For me the benefits of the extra color dont pay for the added vulnerability to mana denial. Especially against Tempo Thresh.

Firespout build: Better vs Zoo, Gobos, Merfolk weaker vs mana denial, mirror.
Wing shards: worse vs merfolk, Ok vs Zoo, Gobos, better vs mirror, Thresh, NO-Progenitus, agroo-loam, anything with counters.

People are metagaming hugely for zoo and i expect more combo, reanimator and agroo-control than ever.

[alfthefurryalien]

Test it. You have goyf, stop, knight and counters to buy time. You dont need to wing shards on turn3. You wing shards when you see the oppotunity. You can also daze your own brainstorm (and pay for it) to kill 3 with any help of your oponent if you are desesperate. You are turning your instant cantrips and extra counters to removal.

Wing Shars vs Firespout

Firespout can be better maybe. But i want to stay 3 colors. For me the benefits of the extra color dont pay for the added vulnerability to mana denial. Especially against Tempo Thresh.

Firespout build: Better vs Zoo, Gobos, Merfolk weaker vs mana denial, mirror.
Wing shards: worse vs merfolk, Ok vs Zoo, Gobos, better vs mirror, Thresh, NO-Progenitus, agroo-loam, anything with counters.

People are metagaming hugely for zoo and i expect more combo, reanimator and agroo-control than ever.

Seems like if you have all these things to buy you time you don't need wing shards. With enough removal and large guys with RWM and Goyf you should not have trouble vs goblins. Merfolk is another issue but again they have smaller guys to sac to a stormed wing shards. And they are attacking with them because they can be unblockable. And pray to god they dont have a stifle....

My point was that it was not good vs decks with vial because you want your removal to turn on quickly and shards is really slow, not to mention if you are trying to storm it out with BS and Dazes.(5 mana and 3 cards vs aggro seems like the worst idea) Also if you have all these extra cards just to try to force though a shards you are behind already. Seems like a big gamble to rely on it, especially when you don't get to chose the creatures they are sacing.

If you want to stay 3 color and want to extra removal I would rather just play the Paths main.

[Skeggi]

Wing Shars vs Firespout
No contest. Stop suggesting bad cards. I could elaborate, but seriously, I'm also not going to argue why Tarmogoyf is better than Werebear.

[Xero_2285]

This is my first go round with ProBant and was wanting some feedback about my decklist. I was thinking about taking it to SCG 5k in December but I'm not sure if it's right for the meta. My list:

4x Noble Hierarch
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Rhox War Monk
2x Trygon Predator
2x Sower of Temptation

4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Ponder
4x Counterbalance
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Vedalken Shackles

4x Misty Rainforest
2x Flooded Strand
1x Scalding Tarn
4x Tropical Island
2x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
1x Island
1x Forest
1x Plains

SB:
3x Firespout
2x REB
1x Pyroblast
3x BEB
2x Krosan Grip
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Relic of Progenitus

I know for starters I need more Tundra's (working on that) but I'm having trouble deciding between 4 creature control slots and whether or not Sower is good anymore. Sometimes Sower sticks and go all the way but most of the time it eats a Bolt or Edict and another creature gets to keep on beating. Is 2 Shackles good enough or are the Sowers needed as well. I want to fit 2 Jitte in here, depending on the Sowers or Shackles, 2 Jitte might be making their way in. Thoughts?

[gamegeek2]

My list of CounterTop from Dream Wizards 10 Proxy 11/7

Will Alston - 7th place
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Forest
2 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Academy Ruins

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Vedalken Shackles

--- Sideboard ---
4 Pyroblast
3 Firespout
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Spell Snare
1 Threads of Disloyalty

My Tournament Report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15432) - please read and comment

Threads of Disloyalty was strong on the day, and would've been that much better had any Zoo showed up. Highly recommend putting at least 2 somewhere in your deck. It's cheaper than Sower, a 3 to flip off Balance (to hit Grips, etc.), and doesn't die to every kind of creature removal in the format - which means it's crap against Zoo, even though it steals stuff; in contrast, Threads is amazing against Zoo.

I dislike Ponder in a deck with Sensei's Divining Top, and haven't had problems with Tops clogging my hand, given Brainstorm and shufflers.

[alfthefurryalien]

How was V Clique on the day? and was your threat density high enough over all? with only 7 creatures I can imagine some decks can be hard to beat like stacks or combo. Yes CBT is good vs combo but its possible to just not be able to lock up the game becuase of low threat density before they can overwhelm you with their combo

[gamegeek2]

There's absolutely no stax in my meta. I played against combo round 1, you can read how it played out. You really don't need to drop a beater until later; spend time setting yourself up with answers, especially CounterTop.

V. Clique was excellent, a strong evasive beater as well as taking key spells out of the opponent's hand. The information it gives you is very important in many matchups, especially against combo, and Flash allows you to play the control role more effectively.

[Skeggi]

This is my first go round with ProBant and was wanting some feedback about my decklist. <snip> Thoughts?
Well... without Progenitus it isn't really ProBant, is it? Also, not running 4x Sensei's Divining Top in a CounterTop list is beyond my understanding. You should throw out a Ponder if you don't know anything else to throw out.

Gamegeek2: that's one heck of a heavy control version of CounterTop. I like that. But I would rather drop the 4th Daze for a third Spell Snare. Once you run into Zoo or Landstill, you'll want that third EE.

[gamegeek2]

Seems like a good idea - I'll try it out. It also makes room in the sideboard.

The reason I go heavy control is because the deck plays the control role in the vast majority of matchups. And yes, I do want to keep the 3rd EE, which has been invaluable against Landstill.

[Xero_2285]

Well... without Progenitus it isn't really ProBant, is it? Also, not running 4x Sensei's Divining Top in a CounterTop list is beyond my understanding. You should throw out a Ponder if you don't know anything else to throw out.

Well I saw a couple of decks on deckcheck that were labeled Pro Bant and didn't have Prog so I went from there, but your right... makes sense. After more testing changes to the deck are -2 Sower -2 Ponder, +2 Jitte +1 Daze +1 Top.

[Enigma]

@Shimi:



Ponders: Did you ever missed them? Since it is a suffle effect and helps to find lands , threats or assemble an "blind" CB when you do not have Top.
No, I didn't. I really feel a control deck doesn't need ponder. It needs shuffle effects for top and BS, yes, but that's why we are playing 8 fetches. I always slow play them to wait for a BS or a Top to have a fully use of them.


Spell Snare: 2 does not sound too random? It is there for Goyfs , CB or some other reason?
Qasali, Goyf, CB are some of the very important threats you have to answer, yes. At first I tried to cut the Dazes from the list as Probasco has been doing but I was missing them a lot. I then decided to make the 3/2 splits and it went perfect for me. If I could, I would go to 3/3 though.



Elspeth and Ajani: As i could see it saved you in many MU but it also was sided out in other MUs , did you liked them? In my list I'm thinking about running Knight of Relicary since it is very big , has 3cc and generates extra suffle effects for CB and Top.I'm also considering running a 4th Firespout in SB( my meta is very aggro oriented).
Depending if you want your decklist more control or more aggro, you could go for one or the other, but I will keep the Elspeths there for sure. I might cut the Vengeants for Wrath to fight Progenitus better, though.


4cc spells: Elspeth and Ajani makes you have 4 cards with 4cc , did it was enought to fight 4cc spells with CB like NO , cause i think you will play it when you find and it will rarely counters something.
In testing against PRO Bant and Landstill, it has been really good to have 4 4cc spells out of the board, but it just didn't happened against Louis that I had CB top assembled when he went for N.O.

Tells me what you think!

P-M

[keys]

So I just started playing Pro Bant, using John Mosier's list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=29963) -1 Trygon, +1 RWM, -2 Ponder, +1 land, +1 Lorescale Coatl

and my manabase looks like this:

4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah (or 1 plains?)
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

I found the ponders a little out of place, and 18 land seemed light to me.

Also, does anyone have SB plans written up for this deck?

[jazzykat]

So, I see Elspeth has made it into some lists and everyone says try her she is so good. My problems with her are:

1. For the longest of times people were saying 4 mana is too much
2.Wouldn't Mystic Enforcer be a better choice than requiring two of the same off color mana?

[Skeggi]

2.Wouldn't Mystic Enforcer be a better choice than requiring two of the same off color mana?
No. I tried Mystic Enforcer for a while, and it's too hard to reach Threshold. A 3/3 problack for 4 mana is rediculous. Elspeth on the other hand, is always good as long as you can cast her. Getting double white is no problem if you set up your manabase correctly. I'm not saying Elspeth is the best card for CounterTop, but if you encounter alot of Landstill in your meta, it will certainly improve your match-up.

[Misplayer]

I played gamegeek2’s list to a 4-1 finish at a local event (20+ players) this past weekend. The only changes I made were:

-1 Daze
+1 Spell Snare

SB:
-1 Spell Snare
-1 Pyroblast
+2 Path to Exile
Round 1: Pat with Ichorid
G1: He mulls to 6 and I consider the probability he’s playing Ichorid. He opens with Gemstone -> LED. I play land, go. He cracks EOT, dredges into ‘Moeba + nothing. He Therapies targeting himself and I FoW to keep him off dredging. Eventually I Clique away his GGT and smash with a big Goyf.
+2 Crypt
+3 Pyroblast
+2 PtE
-4 Counterbalance
-2 Threads
-1 Spell Snare
G2: He dredges solidly through the first few turns with the help of PImp but hits only Ichorids/Moeba’s with no bridges. StP keeps him off Dread Return after he feeds Ichorids to Ichorids. EE at 0 for insurance. Goyf starts swinging for 5. He dredges into nothing. GG.

1-0-0, 2-0

Round 2: Ben with RB Goblins
G1: I win the roll. Land go. Land go. CB go. Vial is countered blindly. Warchief is Dazed. Matron resolves and gets in for probably 6-7 damage, but I’m able to answer his other threats with StP and EE. Eventually I find Shackles. FoW SGC and Ringleader. Goyf cleans up.
-4 Counterbalance
-2 Spell Snare
+1 Threads
+2 Path to Exile
+3 Firespout
G2: This game is highlighted by REB on Daze. Fine by me. Firespout handles double Piledriver. He’s tight on land and what he can play I can answer easily. Goyf lands. Match ends.

2-0-0, 4-0

Round 3: John with BWG Aggro-ish Rock
G1: John is probably the best player in my meta. This game sees some wild momentum swings. He rips 4 Wastelands and Vindicates my Forest but I’m somehow able to not get blown out. In the end, it comes down to him having a Top while mine gets Deeded in response to a draw activation. (Side note: if I didn’t open this game by fetching basics, I would have had no chance. Instead I fetched basics and almost won. So I’ve still to see a situation where fetching basics against Wasteland is not the right play).
+1 Spell Snare
+2 Path
+1 Threads
-3 EE
-1 Daze
G2: I open with triple Goyf and draw into the 4th. He turn 2 Hymns a Threads and Clique. +3/+3!
G3: Tight game where I have answers for all his threats and this time I find Top. I Clique away his first Top after he draws off it to Vindicate an early Goyf and have FoW for his 2nd Top. Eventually Threads on Bob seals it. Tight match.

3-0-0, 6-1

Round 4: James(?) with Monoblue Painter/CBTop/StifleNought
G1: I resolve Counterbalance and use a couple Brainstorms to counter 3-4 of his spells before finding Top. Goyf and Clique smash.
I had a difficult time sideboarding because I wanted Threads for Nought, Grip for everything, Pyroblast for everything, and PtE for Painter/Nought. I think I went
-2 Shackles
-3 EE
-3 Daze
-1 Clique
+1 Spell Snare
+2 Path to Exile
+3 Pyroblast
+3 Krosan Grip
G2: He opens with Island -> Grindstone. I play Volcanic go because I was told he doesn’t play Wasteland and I have Pyroblast in hand for a potential Counterbalance. He plays Wasteland. Great. For whatever reason, he plays Painters Servant and names blue in the face of my Volcanic Island!! I EOT Pyroblast and he Forces. On my turn I fetch a Tundra and StP his Servant. Spell Snare meets his Counterbalance. Mine resolves, I lock him out and Goyf smashes.

4-0-0, 8-1

Round 5: Dennis with Monoblue Painter/CBTop/StifleNought
At this point I’m the only 4-0 and all my defeated opponents are 3-1! It was bizarre. I’d like to ID in to the top 4 but Dennis needs to win to make it. His build is considerably different than the previous round, and he’s a much better player.
G1: He wins the roll and plays land, grindstone. I play land, go. He then plays Ancient Tomb, Chrome Mox, Counterbalance which I foolishly Daze to force a Tomb activation. He plays Top off his spare mana. Shiz. He finds Servant before I can get EE set up because I set myself so far behind with Daze and I get grinded out.
Similar boarding to Round 4.
G2: I play land, go. He plays land, grindstone. I play land, Counterbalance. He plays Tomb, Servant, I blindflip Force, he names blue (so I put him on having FoW because he knows what he’s doing). I look at my hand and see 2 Krosan Grip but no 3rd land. GG.

4-1-0, 8-3

Thoughts: I love this build, many props to gamegeek2. It’s very easy to play control with this deck without playing CBTop, but it’s also easy to just establish the soft-lock and win from there. I like the beefy counter suite and EE is so versatile as opposed to the Supreme Blue variants that have a more vulnerable manabase (due to RWM + Firespout main). Clique improves all your matchups that aren’t improved by either the heavy removal package or Counterbalance (read: control). The SB was excellent and Path was a perfect metagame choice. I would highly recommend this build to anyone looking for a really stout control-style CBTop list.

[aTn]

So, I see Elspeth has made it into some lists and everyone says try her she is so good. My problems with her are:

1. For the longest of times people were saying 4 mana is too much
2.Wouldn't Mystic Enforcer be a better choice than requiring two of the same off color mana?

Here are my two cents:

1. IMO, the "4 cc is too much" argument applies more to "old" Threshold decks. When playing a build like Engima's (6th place at Vestal (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=401190&postcount=362)), which can become more mid/late-game oriented, dropping Elspeth on the board doesn't seem like an impossible feat (he also plays 20 lands).

2. In Enigma's list, Enforcer might take a long a time to gain threshold (e.g. no Ponders) and I don't think he'd fill Elspeth's role (for example, see some plays he made in Enigma's Vestal report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15509)). That being said, I agree it may be hard to get WW in a field populated by mana-denial (and where players are used to the match-up - i.e. where they know when to cut you from Elspeth). In that scenario, I'd either drop Elspeth if it doesn't make sense in such a metagame or I'd tinker with the manabase fo sho.

[Kuma]

So I just started playing Pro Bant, using John Mosier's list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=29963) -1 Trygon, +1 RWM, -2 Ponder, +1 land, +1 Lorescale Coatl

and my manabase looks like this:

4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah (or 1 plains?)
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

I found the ponders a little out of place, and 18 land seemed light to me.

Also, does anyone have SB plans written up for this deck?

Since that's my list card for card from the Legacy Champs, with the exception of Misty Rainforests, I can give you a hand.

You're right about the Ponders and 18 lands. I'm up to 19 lands, and I'm not running Ponders anymore.

I can tell you how I'd sideboard with that list, or I can show you my current list and tell you how I sideboard with that. Which do you prefer?

[gamegeek2]

I played gamegeek2’s list to a 4-1 finish at a local event (20+ players) this past weekend. The only changes I made were:

-1 Daze
+1 Spell Snare

SB:
-1 Spell Snare
-1 Pyroblast
+2 Path to Exile




Thoughts: I love this build, many props to gamegeek2. It’s very easy to play control with this deck without playing CBTop, but it’s also easy to just establish the soft-lock and win from there. I like the beefy counter suite and EE is so versatile as opposed to the Supreme Blue variants that have a more vulnerable manabase (due to RWM + Firespout main). Clique improves all your matchups that aren’t improved by either the heavy removal package or Counterbalance (read: control). The SB was excellent and Path was a perfect metagame choice. I would highly recommend this build to anyone looking for a really stout control-style CBTop list.

Thanks a lot. I've made the same maindeck changes. My sideboard has 2 open slots (-2 Spell Snare, as one went into the main), which I'm definitely going to devote to the aggro matchup; I'm thinking either Path or War Monk.

[keys]

Since that's my list card for card from the Legacy Champs, with the exception of Misty Rainforests, I can give you a hand.

You're right about the Ponders and 18 lands. I'm up to 19 lands, and I'm not running Ponders anymore.

I can tell you how I'd sideboard with that list, or I can show you my current list and tell you how I sideboard with that. Which do you prefer?

Did your current list change from this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=400693&postcount=41)? You like Trygon better than Coatl and 4th Daze?

I think I'm going to run the same Sideboard Mosier ran at the Philly 5k:

2 Engineered Explosives
2 Relic Of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Trygon Predator
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip

Propagandas might be better than BEBs against the field, I'll have to try that out. Maybe you can tell me how you'd SB both ways?

I'm also still considering the basic Plains... what are your thoughts on that?

[jazzykat]

OK, so I see where you guys are coming from running Elspeth and it is really cool to have a 4cc for CB, although I am not sold yet.

However, Clique is looking stronger than ever especially alongside MD Firespouts as it's in the main color, pitches to FOW, and has flash allowing you to keep mana up during your opponents turn, or mess with there hand after they brainstormed or pondered for their answer.

My feelings on the Rhino Monk are well known: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13184

[Dipterans]

Hey guys. I think this is my first ever post, but I always come here and read when I have a legacy tournament, you always seem to know whats up. Anyways, I am on the US national team, and am playing legacy for the team portion. I love it so I jumped on the chance to play it here. Basically, I am settled on Supreme Blue/cbalance top or whatever the name du jour is. I've come here to ask you guys what the best sideboard options are. Are there any real good options against 43 land? What is the best package against dredge? Are there any cards I should certainly play, or not play? is ajani vengeant ant good?

MY maindeck is identicaly to kazuhos from the japan legacy tournament, can you suggest any changes?
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27996

Is it worth playing any basics? The new fetches open up options but I wanted to get your thoughts. is 4 war monk the right number?i is trygon necessary, or would something like espeth be better?

Ive played a lot of counterbalance top in legacy and tested this some, but Im no expert and there are tons of options, so basically if anyone has any thoughts/lists etc just let me know.

your country needs you! =D

thanks in advance to everyone.

[Skeggi]

I can strongly suggest Wing Shards. Run it next to Firespout. It's awesome. Good luck!

[o13g]

I can strongly suggest Wing Shards. Run it next to Firespout. It's awesome. Good luck!

Seconded.

[gamegeek2]

Hey guys. I think this is my first ever post, but I always come here and read when I have a legacy tournament, you always seem to know whats up. Anyways, I am on the US national team, and am playing legacy for the team portion. I love it so I jumped on the chance to play it here. Basically, I am settled on Supreme Blue/cbalance top or whatever the name du jour is. I've come here to ask you guys what the best sideboard options are. Are there any real good options against 43 land? What is the best package against dredge? Are there any cards I should certainly play, or not play? is ajani vengeant ant good?

MY maindeck is identicaly to kazuhos from the japan legacy tournament, can you suggest any changes?
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27996

Is it worth playing any basics? The new fetches open up options but I wanted to get your thoughts. is 4 war monk the right number?i is trygon necessary, or would something like espeth be better?

Ive played a lot of counterbalance top in legacy and tested this some, but Im no expert and there are tons of options, so basically if anyone has any thoughts/lists etc just let me know.

your country needs you! =D

thanks in advance to everyone.

Yes, play 2 Island and 1 Forest, with 4 Misty Rainforest.

Wing Shards is bad.

[Kuma]

Did your current list change from this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=400693&postcount=41)? You like Trygon better than Coatl and 4th Daze?

Nope, that's my current list. And yes, I like Trygon better than Coatl and the fourth Daze.

I don't see the point of running a singleton Lorescale Coatl. He's crappy late, and with only one, you're not likely to draw him early.

Daze is a very weak card after the first couple of turns, and I often found myself siding them out on the draw. I haven't missed the fourth Daze since I went down to three.

Trygon Predator helps assure you have a green creature for Natural Order, while giving you six 3-CC cards for maximum Counterbalancing. It also gets around opposing Counterbalances, and is a total house against Dreadstill, CounterTop, Armageddon Stax, Chalice Aggro, Enchantress, and anything running Standstill.

I've gone back and forth on whether to run Predator or Qasali Pridemage, but right now I'm leaning towards Predator for its ability to generate card advantage while flying over ground stalemates.


I think I'm going to run the same Sideboard Mosier ran at the Philly 5k:

2 Engineered Explosives
2 Relic Of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Trygon Predator
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip

Propagandas might be better than BEBs against the field, I'll have to try that out. Maybe you can tell me how you'd SB both ways?

I'm also still considering the basic Plains... what are your thoughts on that?

I've found basic Plains to be weak in this kind of deck. You only run eight white cards, and none of them cost more than one white mana. You can also get white mana from Noble Hierarch off a basic Forest.

That's also the same sideboard I ran at Legacy Champs. Here's how I'd sideboard with it using my old list with your changes:

CounterTop: -1 Rhox War Monk, -1 Daze, -1 Lorescale Coatl, +2 Trygon Predator, +1 Krosan Grip.

Zoo: -1 Lorescale Coatl, -4 Daze, +2 Engineered Explosives, +2 Hydroblast, +1 Blue Elemental Blast

ANT: -4 Swords to Plowshares, +3 Krosan Grip, +1 Trygon Predator

ANT w/Red and Empty the Warrens: -4 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Lorescale Coatl, -1 Land, +2 Hydroblast, +2 Blue Elemental Blast, +2 Engineered Explosives

Belcher: -4 Swords to Plowshares, +2 Hydroblast, +2 Blue Elemental Blast, -1 Lorescale Coatl, -1 Land, +2 Engineered Explosives

Tempo Thresh: -1 Lorescale Coatl, -1 Daze, +2 Relic of Progenitus. On the draw, +2 Engineered Explosives, -2 Daze as well.

Goblins: +2 Blue Elemental Blast, +2 Hydroblast, -4 Counterbalance

Merfolk: +2 Engineered Explosives, -2 Counterbalance

Ichorid: -4 Counterbalance, +2 Tormod's Crypt, +2 Relic of Progenitus

Landstill: This really depends on the list. - Some number of Lorescale Coatl, Daze, Counterbalance, Swords to Plowshares, Rhox War Monk, + Some number of Engineered Explosives, Trygon Predator, Relic of Progenitus, Krosan Grip.

My current list and my current sideboarding:

4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk
2 Trygon Predator

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

SB:

1 Trygon Predator
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Propaganda
2 Ghostly Prison
4 Spell Pierce
3 Engineered Explosives

---------------------------

CounterTop: -1 Daze, +1 Trygon Predator

Zoo: -3 Daze, +3 Engineered Explosives

ANT: -4 Swords to Plowshares, +4 Spell Pierce

ANT w/Red and Empty the Warrens: -4 Swords to Plowshares, -2 Trygon Predator, +4 Spell Pierce, +2 Engineered Explosives

Belcher: -4 Swords to Plowshares, -2 Trygon Predator, -1 Forest, +4 Spell Pierce, +3 Engineered Explosives

Tempo Thresh: -2 Trygon Predator, -3 Daze, +3 Engineered Explosives, +2 Relic of Progenitus

Goblins: -4 Counterbalance +2 Ghostly Prison, +2 Propaganda

Merfolk: -2 Counterbalance, -1 Daze, +3 Engineereed Explosives

Ichorid: -4 Counterbalance, -2 Trygon Predator, -1 Sensei's Divining Top, -3 Swords to Plowshares, +2 Relic of Progenitus, +1 Tormod's Crypt, +3 Engineered Explosives, +2 Propaganda, +2 Ghostly Prison

Landstill: This really depends on the list. - Some number of Counterbalance, Daze, Swords to Plowshares, Rhox War Monk, + Some number of Spell Pierce, Engineereed Explosives, Trygon Predator, Relic of Progenitus.

[jazzykat]

Hey guys. I think this is my first ever post, but I always come here and read when I have a legacy tournament, you always seem to know whats up. Anyways, I am on the US national team, and am playing legacy for the team portion. I love it so I jumped on the chance to play it here. Basically, I am settled on Supreme Blue/cbalance top or whatever the name du jour is. I've come here to ask you guys what the best sideboard options are. Are there any real good options against 43 land? What is the best package against dredge? Are there any cards I should certainly play, or not play? is ajani vengeant ant good?

MY maindeck is identicaly to kazuhos from the japan legacy tournament, can you suggest any changes?
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27996

Is it worth playing any basics? The new fetches open up options but I wanted to get your thoughts. is 4 war monk the right number?i is trygon necessary, or would something like espeth be better?

Ive played a lot of counterbalance top in legacy and tested this some, but Im no expert and there are tons of options, so basically if anyone has any thoughts/lists etc just let me know.

your country needs you! =D

thanks in advance to everyone.

I'm going to be both nice and polite when I tell you this, (rare for an internet forum yes I know). You need to read the thread or at least the last 10-15 pages and take you what you think will be best for the metagame. You can just blindly play a list but this is the kind of deck that has undergone a lot of metagame adaptation in about 12 flex slots

[ShiftyKapree]

Does anyone have any tips on playing against landstill with this deck using the UGW or BUG builds? Last tourny i just couldn't beat those and I'm still upset about it.

[Enigma]

You need better cards and a game plan against them, some people are trying to go with the aggro way, adding Gaddock teeg to their team to slow them. I won only 1 match due to this strategy against Landstill, so it's not the one I prefer. To fight control more effectivly, I added 2 cards at 4cc MD that are very strong against them: Elspeths. They play a double role of countering their big threats with CB, and when landed, it's a pain for them. After SB, my strategy is to name E.E. with Pithing Needle and install CB with 3 and 4 on top. (I have 4 4cc spells post-board)

P-M

[alfthefurryalien]

I can strongly suggest Wing Shards. Run it next to Firespout. It's awesome. Good luck!

I think we have decided that wingshards is bad. A 3cc conditional removal spell that can maybe once per tournament net you some card advantage is not what this deck needs.

As far as the Legacy portion of Worlds, last year the metagame was very diverse. A sideboard should be tuned to have answers to most of the decks in the format, which is true of any sideboard in legacy. CB is good vs 43 lands by itslef just be able to deal with their lands early and assemble CB TOP and float a 2cc and they should not be able to win. Dredge depends on the list they are running but some number of crypts/ relics should be enough to slow them down enough.

[Skeggi]

I think we have decided that wingshards is bad.

your country needs you! =D
I'm Dutch :tongue:

[lorddotm]

I'm Dutch :tongue:

Meanie.

[jazzykat]

So, has anyone tested Knight of the Reliquary lately. It was in zoo for a while but thoctar seems to be preferred. Given that this deck already has a slower gameplan, it looks like it could be goyf's 5&6. Especially since, there is so much mana disruption still floating around.

[ansset]

So, has anyone tested Knight of the Reliquary lately. It was in zoo for a while but thoctar seems to be preferred. Given that this deck already has a slower gameplan, it looks like it could be goyf's 5&6. Especially since, there is so much mana disruption still floating around.

I'm pretty sure you never want to play Knight of the Reliquary as an answer to mana disruption. There are two major decks in the metagame that use mana denial as strong component of their strategy: Canadian Thresh and Merfolk.

Canadian Thresh is going to be able to keep you off of Knight mana for at least a turn past when you want to cast it, either by Stifling your fetchland or Wasting your dual land. When you eventually cast Knight, it's going to be insanely vulnerable to Daze. And even if you do resolve it, you have a 5/5. Sweet. Why not just play Mystic Enforcer? That guy FLIES.

Merfolk is going to let you resolve Knight a lot easier, but he's just a random guy who will be a 3/3 or 4/4 that they will quite possibly just Islandwalk past. If they get the Wasteland/Aether Vial draw, I genuinely do not understand how Knight is going to be doing much of anything in that game.

Effective ways to answer mana denial include playing more lands, playing Spell Pierce, or playing something else that positively impacts your mana stability on a more tactically achievable and immediate basis.

[Shimi]

So, has anyone tested Knight of the Reliquary lately. It was in zoo for a while but thoctar seems to be preferred. Given that this deck already has a slower gameplan, it looks like it could be goyf's 5&6. Especially since, there is so much mana disruption still floating around.

Played +2 Reliquary -2Trygons(went to SB) in my SupremeBlue list and i get some conclusions:

1-If usually does not pitch to FoW when you need.
2-90% of plays I want to play Goyf or RWM or CB or Firespout and leave Reliquary to be suffled in my library or sleeping in my hand.
3-If you drop it 3/3 it is just horrible, so it is horrible if it is your only early game threat or blocker.
4-The good point is that for turn 7+ it is just a big as goyf and can provide free cantrips to helps Top and CB.It also grows very fast if you sac a dual search for fetch and then fetch a dual.

I think that if we need a new Threat it could be elspeth(because enforcer isn't 6/6 when you really need.)

[gamegeek2]

Paulo Vitor Damo da Rosa (big name Brazilian player) is playing Supreme Blue, Brazil's doing quite well.

If you're looking for versatile cards that serve as efficient threats, Elspeth and Vendilion Clique are your best bets, and serve good purposes against both Aggro and Control.

[lorddotm]

4 Thopter Foundry
4 Sword of the Meek

4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Enlightened Tutor

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Path to Exile
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
3 Island
3 Plains
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins

SB
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Krosan Grip
3 Spell Pierce
2 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Ravenous Trap


So I have no idea if this deck works. It is completely untested.


That said, it seems like an interesting to to play. It has Thirst, which is busted, along with Counterbalance and Top to protect the combo. It runs 8 Swords and 2 EE to defend itself in this land of Zoo.

Anyone wanna try it out?

[lorddotm]

Hey guys. I think this is my first ever post, but I always come here and read when I have a legacy tournament, you always seem to know whats up. Anyways, I am on the US national team, and am playing legacy for the team portion. I love it so I jumped on the chance to play it here. Basically, I am settled on Supreme Blue/cbalance top or whatever the name du jour is. I've come here to ask you guys what the best sideboard options are. Are there any real good options against 43 land? What is the best package against dredge? Are there any cards I should certainly play, or not play? is ajani vengeant ant good?

MY maindeck is identicaly to kazuhos from the japan legacy tournament, can you suggest any changes?
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27996

Is it worth playing any basics? The new fetches open up options but I wanted to get your thoughts. is 4 war monk the right number?i is trygon necessary, or would something like espeth be better?

Ive played a lot of counterbalance top in legacy and tested this some, but Im no expert and there are tons of options, so basically if anyone has any thoughts/lists etc just let me know.

your country needs you! =D

thanks in advance to everyone.

Are you PV?
:P

[o13g]

Are you PV?
:P

I bet it's Yurchick, since he's the only one on the team at 22 yrs old : )

[chokin]

@lorddotm - I think your list could totally get away with running Vedalken Shackles to abuse Tutor as a way to cheat the top card.

0 - EE
1 - Top
2 - Sword/Foundry
3 - Shackles

Just an idea.

The combo is tough to disrupt, but does it have enough 'oomph'? Turn 2, you get one piece out. Turn 3, you play the other and possibly make one token. Turn 4, you make up to 4 tokens. If it's something you aren't racing for, could you reduce it and add in extra counters like Daze, Spell Pierce, or Spell Snare?

[alderon666]

Countertop is dead! Didn't you hear about it?
Please stop playing it!

Signed, ANT player. :tongue:


I've tested a couple times with Zoo against the Thopter combo + CB-TOP and it just didn't feel like a good combo.

Qasali just wrecks it, and if you counter him you're just getting eaten by Goyfs.
Sure once you land it unanswered it's GG, there's no comeback from untapping with the combo in play. But game 2 the Krosan Grips come in and everything just starts to look dreadfully bad. Even if you land an early combo, a Grip buys a lot of time for the Zoo player to bash your face with green dudes.

[Skeggi]

Paulo Vitor Damo da Rosa (big name Brazilian player) is playing Supreme Blue, Brazil's doing quite well.
Yeah, he got to play against Belcher, so hard :wink:

The guy plays Wall of Blossoms maindeck. It cantrips, so that's good, but as far as I know it only stops a Goyf 1 turn. On the other hand it stops alot of other creatures. Cool idea.

[Gibsonmac]

He admitted he is NOT a legacy player, is playing MD Firespout cause he expected lots of zoo, and that is the 'easiest deck to build and play' so, it is what it is

[alfthefurryalien]

The combo is tough to disrupt, but does it have enough 'oomph'? Turn 2, you get one piece out. Turn 3, you play the other and possibly make one token. Turn 4, you make up to 4 tokens. If it's something you aren't racing for, could you reduce it and add in extra counters like Daze, Spell Pierce, or Spell Snare?

This is not a combo that comes out turn 2. Turn two should be dedicated to setting up CB/ TOP. The sword of the meek just seems like his win condition of choice. Yes it is slow but his deck is ment to be slow. This version is slow and Shackles would be a good idea to add to the deck as an alternative win condition. If he is trying to make tokens as fast as he can he is probably losing.

[chokin]

Well, either way, he'd only be able to make about 4 tokens at a time. Against any aggro deck, it's a perpetual Fog until someone breaks it. And if they don't have much resistance, it's a victory.

On the other hand, Painter Grindstone is a win condition that ends the game barring Gaea's Blessing. PG is a little easier to disrupt, but with CBTop down, it's not that bad.

Just something to think about. If you're saying that the combo comes after CBTop, then Painter seems like the better win to me unless I'm missing something.

On a side note, I saw someone run a Landstill-esque build with Intuition for Academy Ruins, Thopter Foundry, Sword of the Meek. With a Crucible in play, that's a pretty mean stack. I think that it's one of the best ways to pull off the combo.

[Shimi]

Yeah, he got to play against Belcher, so hard :wink:

The guy plays Wall of Blossoms maindeck. It cantrips, so that's good, but as far as I know it only stops a Goyf 1 turn. On the other hand it stops alot of other creatures. Cool idea.

It cantrip but really sucks because you play firespout MD and they are there for the same reason of walls, ponders are much better than this wall and don't make you waste 1 green mana and did not suffle your top loking for CB which he did not find agains belcher.

About CB , i would not play it if i did not know very well the most played legacy decks and comons plays.I would go with merfolks or stax if i would a non legacy player.

[Citrus-God]

Even if Blossoms don't stop Goyf, it stops Ape, Pridemage, Natctl. So there's some validity there in it's inclusion. Only being worried about stopping four cards is a bit of a ridiculous reason to think of Wall of Blossoms being bad. Of course, our card pool has improved since then, so I guess you don't need it anymore.

[Gekoratel]

Wall of Blossoms also seems like it would be strong against Tempo Thresh, if they have a Mongoose without Thresh they need Bolt to kill it so that is saving you 4 damage there and if they don't have Bolt/Fire|Ice could save yourself even more damage. Also having more 12-14ish 2cc spells is nice with CB.

[Citrus-God]

Wall of Blossoms also seems like it would be strong against Tempo Thresh, if they have a Mongoose without Thresh they need Bolt to kill it so that is saving you 4 damage there and if they don't have Bolt/Fire|Ice could save yourself even more damage. Also having more 12-14ish 2cc spells is nice with CB.

Yes, that's another good reason to pack Wall of Blossoms. It can buy you so much time against a deck that wants to cut you down on time.

Also, Wall of Blossoms is decent against Merfolk and Goblins. Also, Wall can force Merfolk and Gobs to overextend, which allows you to cast Firesprout.

[Skeggi]

Wall of Blossoms also seems like it would be strong against Tempo Thresh.
Yep, Submerge isn't as bad on this one as it is on Goyf.

[Ch@os]

Yes and for the cc3 slot some :F
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/arb/16.jpg

[Skeggi]

You would almost include Doran and Rolling Stones... :rolleyes:

[sauce]

hey, guess what....
shield sphere just called and wants to be included in the rolling stones, doran, counterbalance, wall of blossoms and wall of denial deck.

Capitalization is required on this site. Use it. -zilla

[Illissius]

What you really want is Wall of Mulch.

[Shimi]

Add Illusionary Wall and Goyfs and Tombstalkers will never hit you again!! and it counters force if in the top!!!

Seriously: Rhox is a atack for 3 wall that can double blocks , why do you need more defensive cards?It also counters 3cc which are very popular against CT.

[sauce]

playing walls is just counterproductive in legacy, they don't help you win...
its not like you need to force aggro to overextend into a wrath/sweeper... they are going to do it to you regardless..
like in type2 when playing cruel control, we used to run out the kitchen finks to make people over extend, but in legacy, they do it on their own cuz nobody runs wrath besides landstill..

Capitalization is required on this site. Use it. -zilla

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I top 2 split a 40 man tournament tonight with this deck. In my opinion, it's not dead at all. Sorry this isn't much to add or anything, i figured I'd give Countertop another +1.

[jazzykat]

Shhhh....it's dead. Remember, all of the metagame reports say its on the decline. No one plays this rubbish anymore. Let's not forget that if counter/top is assembled it still locks 90% of the decks in the format out of the game. I think versions running firespout still have what it takes in this metagame.

[sauce]

Shhhh....it's dead. Remember, all of the metagame reports say its on the decline. No one plays this rubbish anymore. Let's not forget that if counter/top is assembled it still locks 90% of the decks in the format out of the game. I think versions running firespout still have what it takes in this metagame.

the firespout one is only relevant if there is a lot of zoo...
its not as good vs goblins/merfolk as they deny you mana/counter your spells.

the deck is not dead by a long shot.

Capitalizaton is required on this site. Use it. - zilla

[o13g]

the firespout one is only relevant if there is a lot of zoo...
its not as good vs goblins/merfolk as they deny you mana/counter your spells.

the deck is not dead by a long shot.

And they play around it easily, albeit it slows them down a bit.

[keys]

And they play around it easily, albeit it slows them down a bit.

This. Goblins just has to cast another ringleader and they're back in it. It doesn't kill Tarmo or Thoctars in Zoo either. For these reasons I think the Progenitus kill is a better investment than the red splash (for Bant CounterTop). If your meta is heavy Merfolk, then I see an argument for it.

[sauce]

if your meta is heavy merfolk/goblins, the right call is to play zoo, not counterbalance. just my opinion.

Capitalization is required on this site. Use it. -zilla

[chokin]

This. Goblins just has to cast another ringleader and they're back in it. It doesn't kill Tarmo or Thoctars in Zoo either. For these reasons I think the Progenitus kill is a better investment than the red splash (for Bant CounterTop). If your meta is heavy Merfolk, then I see an argument for it.

So you're saying the 4 mana finisher is better than a 3 mana sweeper against a deck that taps down mana or Wastes it away? On top of that, a 10/10 Mean Ass Hydra isn't going to stop them from just swinging into you and killing you anyways.

Firespout may not take out Goyf or Thoctar in the case of Zoo, but you have STP. And resetting Goblins is awesome. Especially if you can counter Ringleader.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I run Firespout maindeck. I beat a Elf player who played Summoner's Pact with only two Forests in play and then i Firespout his board and he lost during his upkeep. It is also good against Goblins too, and Zoo. I run Shackles, Firespout, and STP maindeck so creatures usually aren't that big a problem for me anyway. Firespout is still good, and i would run it in an unknown meta anyday.

[keys]

So you're saying the 4 mana finisher is better than a 3 mana sweeper against a deck that taps down mana or Wastes it away? On top of that, a 10/10 Mean Ass Hydra isn't going to stop them from just swinging into you and killing you anyways.

Firespout may not take out Goyf or Thoctar in the case of Zoo, but you have STP. And resetting Goblins is awesome. Especially if you can counter Ringleader.

I can't really say which is harder to resolve against Goblins, 2R or 2GG.

I think we can agree that Progenitus is better against Zoo, while Firespout is better against tribal, though as sauce pointed out, if you're playing in a meta full of tribal, CBTop might not be the right call anyway.

[chokin]

Against Zoo, I'd think that Firespout isn't that bad. Takes out everything but Goyf and Thoctar. And they don't have a real draw engine. And as previously mentioned, STP picks up the rest.

Firespout helps the board position, which can lead to victories.

NOPro gives you a guy that wins in 3 turns (turn you NO him, swing 10, swing again). But it doesn't help your board position. Unless they only have 1 creature. Then you're winning anyways.

I agree with sauce that if you're playing in a heavy aggro environment, CBTop isn't the deck of choice. But Firespout makes it more viable as you now have a more fair chance against aggro and a strong chance against combo.

[o13g]

We tested over 20 matches pre and 20 post SB running Hatfield Zoo against Jap Supreme Blue and the conclusions are as follows:
1) The match is definitely in favor of Supreme Blue
2) Firespout + RWM = STONE KOLD NUTZ
3) If SB player was able to live through to mid-game and assemble CBTOP by then there was very little chance he would lose
4) Random Pyroblasts/PtEs aimed at RWMs hurt
5) Shushers did not hurt as much as Grips did, but by that time SB player would usually have 2nd copy of Top/Balance

If anyone has different results *please* let me know! We might as well be wrong in our approach to this matchup.

[Skeggi]

I have exactly the same results. RWM is gamewinning here.

[johanessen]

I am prob running Supreme Blue in next tournament But since there is high amount of combo mainly and even some aggroloams in my meta i wanted to add one or two copies of Vendillion Clique. What's the best way? I think the first to come out are:
-one or two copies of RWM
-one copy of ponder
-one copy of trygon
-one copy of firespout, although I think it's the best card in the deck.
Help me guyz!

[Skeggi]

I'm not sure what your build is, but if you're looking to include Vendilion Clique, the logical thing to take out is Trygon Predator. In a meta with alot of combo and Aggro Loam you've made a good choice by playing CounterTop. However against Aggro Loam you have a few things to keep in mind: Chalice@1 and recurring Wasteland. Chalice@1 is no problem for Trygon Predator, while Vendilion Clique is not as good here. Against recurring Wasteland however, Vendilion Clique can remove Life from the Loam at the end of your opponents drawstep from his hand. If you run basics though, this may not be such a big problem. Depending on your build you may want to run both; Firespout is perhaps your weakest card in these match-ups, although he does deal with Aggro Loam's Dark Confidant and with any combo utilizing either Empty the Warrens or Bridge from Below. Besides, there are plenty of other decks where it's very useful. So, depending on the rest of the build and the rest of the meta, -1 RWM and -1 Ponder may be your best choice. But I have to underline: usually you just switch them for your Trygon Predators.

[o13g]

I would go -2 Trygon +2 Clique.
-1 RWM -1 Ponder +2 Clique overloads your 3cc and you don't want that especially against Combo and Loam.
Also, per my understanding you face Chalice only g2, 3 and you will want to side in 2+ Grips (or even Explosives? depends on SB strategy) against Loam anyhow so that should not be a problem.

Keep in mind that the best CBTop against Loam is the one with 10/10 'Zaschita ot fsivo' creature.

[Skeggi]

-1 RWM -1 Ponder +2 Clique overloads your 3cc and you don't want that especially against Combo and Loam.
Well, it doesn't cut into your cmc2 count, and the one Ponder isn't that big a deal. Actually, against Aggro Loam you want cmc3 over cmc1 for your Counterbalance (Maelstrom Pulse, Seismic Assault, Countryside Crusher, Terravore).

Also, per my understanding you face Chalice only g2, 3There are Aggro Loam builds that run Chalice in the sideboard, but most run them maindeck. I can imagine Aggro Loam lists in a combo heavy meta would certainly run Chalice maindeck.


Keep in mind that the best CBTop against Loam is the one with 10/10 'Zaschita ot fsivo' creature. I disagree. In fact, I don't like the NOPRO combo; it takes up slots, it's slow, and if you happen to run into a counter you have some heavy disadvantage.

In the end; I'd say either switch them for Trygon Predators, or -1 RWM -1 Ponder. If you also have some fast Aggro in your meta, or Burn decks, you want to keep your RWM.

[o13g]

I disagree. In fact, I don't like the NOPRO combo; it takes up slots, it's slow, and if you happen to run into a counter you have some heavy disadvantage.

In the end; I'd say either switch them for Trygon Predators, or -1 RWM -1 Ponder. If you also have some fast Aggro in your meta, or Burn decks, you want to keep your RWM.

Regarding the NOPRO I mentioned its superiority specifically against Loam builds. The drawbacks against other decks are evident. I would agree with your other comments though as our local meta has very little combo so our Loam players never run Chalices MD. On a sidenote I would never run Loam in a combo-infested metagame.

[gamegeek2]

I am prob running Supreme Blue in next tournament But since there is high amount of combo mainly and even some aggroloams in my meta i wanted to add one or two copies of Vendillion Clique. What's the best way? I think the first to come out are:
-one or two copies of RWM
-one copy of ponder
-one copy of trygon
-one copy of firespout, although I think it's the best card in the deck.
Help me guyz!

Have a look at my list:

4 M. Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
2 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Academy Ruins

4 Tarmogoyf
3 V. Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Threads of Disloyalty

--- Sideboard ---
4 Pyroblast
3 Krosan Grip
3 Firespout
1 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Open Slots (Probably RWM)

[johanessen]

I've seen your list and there are a couple of things i dislike:

I don't want to play spell snare and counterbalance, spell snare becomes unnecessary most of the time when you have cb, that's different with daze because it's very necessary when you play cb on turn 2 with protection.

I don't like to play daze and shackles: that means you'll get to use shackles at least on turn 5 and that's pretty bad. Why not to play firespout? One sided wrath effect is worth to be played.

I find threats to be worst than RWM in aggro matchup, altough it's better in the aggrocontrol mu. But when facing combo, RWM races while threads not.

Playing three vendilion's it's too much for a legendary creature. it can be returned to lib by bs, pitched by fow but I still think it's too much copies for a legend permanent.

[MWest52117]

I've seen your list and there are a couple of things i dislike:

I don't want to play spell snare and counterbalance, spell snare becomes unnecessary most of the time when you have cb, that's different with daze because it's very necessary when you play cb on turn 2 with protection.

I don't like to play daze and shackles: that means you'll get to use shackles at least on turn 5 and that's pretty bad. Why not to play firespout? One sided wrath effect is worth to be played.

I find threats to be worst than RWM in aggro matchup, altough it's better in the aggrocontrol mu. But when facing combo, RWM races while threads not.

Playing three vendilion's it's too much for a legendary creature. it can be returned to lib by bs, pitched by fow but I still think it's too much copies for a legend permanent.

With only 11 2cmc cards for CB in gamegeeks build, Spell Snare actually becomes quite useful, especially on the draw where it can help win counterwars over something like t2 CB. I do agree with you on Rhox War Monk vs Threads MD however; the Monk is an absolute house against Zoo and most aggro decks in general. I also would agree with you that 3 Vendilion Cliques is a bit much for a legendary creature in most CounterTop lists; 2 seems to be a good number in this deck.

@o13g Hatfield Zoo vs Supreme Blue results: That's what I've found when playing against Zoo with any build of CounterTop approximating Supreme Blue (i.e. having RWM and Firespout available); Zoo needs to win quickly against Supreme Blue or get locked out of the game completely by CB/Top. Firespout helps out against those quick Zoo starts while War Monk builds up your life back to a manageable level to avoid being burned out of the game by Fireblasts or Price of Progress.

[Gekoratel]

I posted a recent tournament report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=406191#post406191) with a Probasco style CB list if anyone is interested.

[Shimi]

I posted a recent tournament report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=406191#post406191) with a Probasco style CB list if anyone is interested.

Did you liked sowers? Or they were "too vulnerable"?I like control magic effects but sower seems very bad agains many aggros.And why not 4StP since it seems the reason to run white in your deck?

[Gekoratel]

I mainly included it because I liked having a couple 4cc spells in my deck for Counterbalance, the Sowers were fine on the day against GB Midrange and the mirror that I faced but in a more competitive meta filled with Zoo & Goblins I'm not sure if they would make the cut, the Swords were strong throughout the day. I'd be interesting in running Elspeth but WW is too hard on the manabase.

[Shimi]

I mainly included it because I liked having a couple 4cc spells in my deck for Counterbalance, the Sowers were fine on the day against GB Midrange and the mirror that I faced but in a more competitive meta filled with Zoo & Goblins I'm not sure if they would make the cut, the Swords were strong throughout the day. I'd be interesting in running Elspeth but WW is too hard on the manabase.

I'm running 2 Elspeth in my Supreme Blue SB to face control or aggro-control MUs.It is just amazing.

[dr.knockers]

Elspeths imrpove a lot of bad match ups. The list i am currently testing;

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Snare

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Firespout

2 Elspeth

4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic'Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

Many answers, good counter package and stable mana base.

[bokepa]

Elspeths imrpove a lot of bad match ups. The list i am currently testing;


Im testing the same list with the following changes:
-1 RWM
-2 Qasali
+2 Trygon
+1 Lighting Angel

I like the reach the flying creatures give.

As a 2 of i think Trygon > Qasali. Especially with firespouts main.

Angel sometimes is MVP, others is just pitched to FoW for being uncastable

[Misplayer]

Elspeths imrpove a lot of bad match ups.
Like what? I'd guess tribal aggro? Landstill?


a stable mana base.
Against Gobs/Merfolk you're going to want UGRWW. Those decks play mana denial, and one Wasteland could ruin your day, let alone 2 or Port/Stifle. I have a hard time classifying anything 4c with mana costs including UGW, UU, 2WW, and 2R a stable manabase.

[bokepa]

Like what? I'd guess tribal aggro? Landstill?


Against Gobs/Merfolk you're going to want UGRWW. Those decks play mana denial, and one Wasteland could ruin your day, let alone 2 or Port/Stifle. I have a hard time classifying anything 4c with mana costs including UGW, UU, 2WW, and 2R a stable manabase.


You improve Zoo, Landstill, Rock and mirror and you get weaker against Gobos, Merfolks, Tempo Thresh and Team America. Depending on your meta its a fair trade

[Misplayer]

I would imagine Zoo can easily burn down Elspeth or the blockers protecting her. If I open with Elspeth against Zoo I would not be very pleased, personally. You need fast/cheap answers (e.g. Swords/Goyf), or mass removal (Firespout/EE) in that matchup early, then you resolve CounterTop/RWM and win easily.

How often does Elspeth stick in the face of Rock's mana denial, discard and Vindicates? Is Elspeth an offensive card in this matchup? Because I can't imagine it providing much defense against Deed-based decks.

Is the mirror a bad matchup? I suppose it depends on your list, their list, playskill and who resolves Counterbalance first. But I agree that Elspeth is a house against CounterTop.

Maybe I'm just looking at Elspeth in the wrong light. I see it as a defensive card that can quickly switch to offense (from my experience with it in Landstill). I would imagine it would be more offensive in CounterTop lists? Otherwise, Firespout, targetted removal or even Wrath seem like better defensive options, and with those cards a single Goyf is the only offense you need. It's also worth noting that I play CounterTop as a control deck.

To me, she's not worth the WW requirement in a 4c list, but I fully admit I haven't tested her in CounterTop.

[dr.knockers]

I haven't had to much trouble wit the mana denial plan of goblins and merfolk etc. Ports are annoying, but they are costing them 2 mana to use, and with tops, brainstorm and ponders i have enough to find myself more land. Wastes aren't a big threat; You have three basics, and use the fetch to grab the colour you need at the moment you want to cast a specific spell (e.g. elspeth or Spout). I admit that in combination with port it can become a problem.
Tempothresh is thougher, cause they run stifle.

Elspeth improves every match up that would beat you late game, like landstill and ITF like decks and next to that the mirror. For the aggro match ups you have spouts and war monks. Against those Elspeth can be a win condition or just produce a few tokens.

[Kuma]

Against Gobs/Merfolk you're going to want UGRWW. Those decks play mana denial, and one Wasteland could ruin your day, let alone 2 or Port/Stifle. I have a hard time classifying anything 4c with mana costs including UGW, UU, 2WW, and 2R a stable manabase.

True dat.

It's hard enough getting :u::g::w::r: in the face of mana denial when playing with Supreme Blue, let alone :w::w:

@Elspeth people

Elspeth is too colored-mana intensive for a four-color deck. She could be an excellent choice in a three-color deck, but like Misplayer said, there's no way you're going to be able to get all the mana you need in the face of even the lightest mana denial.

I tried running Natural Order and Firespout together in Pro Bant, and the manabase couldn't handle it. :g::g: is easier to get than :w::w: and it still didn't work.

Elspeth against Zoo? She'll probably take them two cards to get rid of, but there's no way it's greatly improving the matchup. I can see how it might improve the Landstill matchup, especially if they run Wrath of God and Humility, but The Rock has too much permanent destruction to care.

Why not run Natural Order instead? Unlike Elspeth, it actually improves the Zoo matchup, while still being solid against Landstill and The Rock.

[Draener]

I was under the impression that Supreme blue already does well against Zoo, and as such we should be looking to improve the bad match ups. Unfortunately, I'm not too sure what those bad matchups are.

[Illissius]

I'm guessing other control decks.

[Whit3 Ghost]

I posted a recent tournament report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=406191#post406191) with a Probasco style CB list if anyone is interested.
Only two Daze just seems weird to me, how did they work out for you?

[Illissius]

BrassMan's list didn't even have Daze in it. Daze comes from Supreme Blue. Which, I believe, has its own thread.

[Gekoratel]

Only two Daze just seems weird to me, how did they work out for you?
Yeah the original Brassman list wasn't running any Daze and only had 8 2cc spells along with 3 Snare. I found that I was consistently having trouble stopping 2cc spells in a more traditional list and I felt like Daze would fit in the role fine.

In testing and tournaments they have been good its particularly nice when they see it game 1 and I board it out. Also as a 2-of they may play around it more than they actually need to be. But yeah the idea to run Daze did come from Supreme Blue which I tried a bit.

[Illissius]

Personally, I hate Daze in anything that's not a tempo deck. I hate having cards just go dead past the first few turns of the game. But that's just me. Running one or two just to make them play around it and then maybe board them out is about the most I would consider.

[chokin]

Daze in decks that want 3-4 mana as soon as possible can suck. I've gone back and forth with Dazes in and out of my deck.

Spell Pierce is worth looking at in my opinion. Especially if you plan on running Firespout. Pierce greatly improves the control/mirror match, as it forces them to have two more mana to cast mean cards such as Counterbalance, Planeswalkers, Humilty, Wrath, etc. Since it doesn't hit creatures though, you need a little more removal, and that's where Firespout comes in.

Here in Tucson, Counterbalance is a little bit weak. By the time it's online, people are wanting to drop more 3cc or 4cc cards than 1cc or 2cc stuff. So I've been experimenting with the Japanese list without Counterbalance, and it's still pretty solid. I've added many different things in it's place...usually an extra Volcanic Island and an extra Firespout (heavy aggro meta) and then the last 2 are pretty flexible. Alternatively, I leave them in and side them out in matches where they aren't as good.

[MattH]

If you're not running Counterbalance, how many Tops do you run?

[chokin]

If you're not running Counterbalance, how many Tops do you run?

Ah I skipped over that detail. I run zero or two. They're good to have because of all of the fetch in the deck, but no mandatory without CB. I tend to gravitate towards two though.

Cards that I've used to fill up the slots:
Clique
Sower
Jitte (only one though)
Engineered Explosives
Vedalken Shackles

I've even run NOProLite, which is just adding the 3 NO, 1 Pro without adding Dryad Arbor or Noble Hierarchs. It never saw play unless I was about to win anyways though. I was never shy a creature either, surprisingly. And if I run NOPro, I have a boarded Empyrial Archangel, because stalls burn pretty hard.

I tend to run CBTop mained though. I just side it out on bad matches. One problem with the Japanese list is that I go to time a lot against some forms of Tribal. Like there was this Soldier/Kithkin deck that runs Harbinger into Thoughtweft Trio (5/5 Champ a Kith, First Strike, Vigilange, Blocks any number of creatures). It dodges Firespout and even if I kill it, he gets another the next turn from Harbinger coming back.

I'm glad that we now have a monthly event that is basically a normal meta. You know, where you don't get shafted for running good decks and good cards.

[_erbs_]

Hello,
I recently decided to play my countertop deck and made some changes to it so i could atleast have a fighting chance in our meta.

Any suggestions of comments is greatly appriciated. Thanks in advance.

The list..

Lands [18]
4 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Forest
2 Island
1 Plains

Creatures [16]
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk
3 Trygon Predator
1 Progenitus

Utilities/Control [16]
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divinning Top
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Spells [10]
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Natural Order

Tentative SB [15]
2 Tormod's Crpyt
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Propaganda
2 Wrath of God
3 Aethersworn Canonist
3 Chill
1 Enlightened Tutor

Im not sure if my sideboards are the right choices aswell.

My meta is fillied with:
Zoo, Merfolks, Goblins, Rock, and Combos (ANT & Ichorid). There are different thresh variants running around aswell.

Thanks

[Jayzonious]

Given your meta personally I would go -1 Jitte -3 Trygon Predators and +1 Daze +2 Vendilion Clique +1 Counterbalance

On the sideboard I would go -3 Propaganda -3 Chill -1 Enlightened Tutor and +4 Spell Pierce +2 Engineered Explosives +1 Jitte

Seems pretty solid, and if anyone has some input on my suggestions please feel free to let me know if you agree or disagree and why.

[Raindown]

My meta is fillied with:
Zoo, Merfolks, Goblins, Rock, and Combos (ANT & Ichorid). There are different thresh variants running around aswell.

Thanks

I face a similar meta but have not played Prog counter/top in it. Does jitte really justify the drop of having 4 tops and CB?

[sauce]

erbs, try the supreme blue in that meta, should be better.

[BackDr0p]

I am currently running the following Supreme Blue list. It has been doing "ok" so far. The only problematic MU's are landstill, URB Fae (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15394), UGR Fae (http://mtgquebec.com/viewtopic.php?t=4448)(#6), Pro Bant, Order Survival (http://mtgquebec.com/viewtopic.php?t=4448)(#4)

What are the possible changes MD and SB I could do in order to help me shore up these match ups.

My meta is dominated by Aggro-Control and Control. However, there is enough aggro to warrant the inclusion of Firespout.


4x Tropical Island
4x Tundra
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Flooded Strand
1x Island
1x Forest
1x Plains
2x Volcanic Island

3x Rhox War Monk
2x Trygon Predator
4x Tarmogoyf

4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Daze
2x Spell Snare
1x Krosan Grip

4x Counterbalance
4x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Pithing Needle

SB:

2x Relic of Proginitus
2x Ravenous Trap
2x Hydroblast
2x Pyroblast
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Krosan Grip
2x (Flex Slot/Answer to Proginitus) Possibly Extract
1x Pithing Needle

[Draener]

I ran supreme blue as well last sunday at a 24 man tourney and did pretty well (3rd) going 4-1-0. The loss was to landstill, and man was it complete. Vendillion clique helps a ton in the control matchups, as well as running more red elemental blasts. Other than that, I too am looking for ways to improve on my poor matchups and would be interested in hearing what others are doing.

[_erbs_]

@Raindown
How are doing in your meta ? what do you have in your list plus SB? the counter/top is good if you could cast it early on and the curve of your opponents deck is with in your curve aswell but if not its kinda useless.

I don't want to depend on the combo too much thats why i have 2 jittes aswell so i could go aggro mode and doubles as a life gain and creature removal.

But against zoo or decks with tons of removal and i can't get my counter/top online jitte is a dead card.

The combo feels iffy, sometimes its good at times crappy when the nat order is stuck in your hand.

Cards that work sometimes at times don't are:
- Jitte
- Nat order combo, you really need a counter backup for this if not its a 2 for 1 card for your opponent.

Cards i think that might help protect the combo:
- Vendillion Clique - peak at your opponents hand before pulling the combo out
- More counter magics - misdirection, daze, spellpierce, etc


@sauce
the supreme blue looks really solid but sadly i don't have any volcanic islands hehehe. firespout is really a nice sweeper.


@progenitus problem
try running tarifs in your SB..

[Shimi]

Hi people, I'm running Traditional list of Supreme Blue , and I'm very happy with it MD and many MUs , but I would like to discuss about match agains Evagreen with White (RockGuy Vindicator).

The first match is just like 70-30, but then things became wierd.They side in many disrupt so pos SB they have 3 Deed,4 Vindicate,3 Tombstalker,4 Bob and 4 Hymns , 4 Seize and 2 Duress as relevant disrupt or must answer.The problem is that the only way I can figure out I can win the game is CB lock and StP for Stalkers , but it becames very dificult to set up or protect since they have 10 discarts spells, 7 CB 3cc kills to destroy my plan while I need to deal with or dig for answers for tombstalkers , Goyfs and Bobs.
So the pos SB match becames like 20-80.So what do you guys think about the strategy for this pos SB match and which would be good SB plans?
KGrips for Deed could be a good SB?Elspeth or Shackles? And going with more 3cc cost cards or vidicate/deed targets could be the way to improve this pos SB match??
Relevant cards of my SB:
2 EE
2 Elspeth/Shackles
3 KGrip
1 openslot

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Hi people, I'm running Traditional list of Supreme Blue , and I'm very happy with it MD and many MUs , but I would like to discuss about match agains Evagreen with White (RockGuy Vindicator).

The first match is just like 70-30, but then things became wierd.They side in many disrupt so pos SB they have 3 Deed,4 Vindicate,3 Tombstalker,4 Bob and 4 Hymns , 4 Seize and 2 Duress as relevant disrupt or must answer.The problem is that the only way I can figure out I can win the game is CB lock and StP for Stalkers , but it becames very dificult to set up or protect since they have 10 discarts spells, 7 CB 3cc kills to destroy my plan while I need to deal with or dig for answers for tombstalkers , Goyfs and Bobs.
So the pos SB match becames like 20-80.So what do you guys think about the strategy for this pos SB match and which would be good SB plans?
KGrips for Deed could be a good SB?Elspeth or Shackles? And going with more 3cc cost cards or vidicate/deed targets could be the way to improve this pos SB match??
Relevant cards of my SB:
2 EE
2 Elspeth/Shackles
3 KGrip
1 openslot

I've always believed that BGW Suicide variants are some of the best decks in the format because i can't think of any bad matchups. They can answer most of the Tier Decks and have a good combo matchup. I don't think Grip is really worth it, because they can cast it and without passing priority pop the thing. It would seem worth it if they played SDT in their list.

You just need to save you STPs in this matchup. I know all their threats are great, but save it for the ones they're going to drop later. Oh what am i saying. They will always target Tundra first with Wasteland, and probably Vindicate as well. And some lists run Sinkhole. Such a horrid matchup.

Daze is your best friend in this matchup.

[sauce]

vs the rock - your goal is to get as many 3 drops into your deck post board as possible and land a cb/top early. only force/daze/counter the deed before u get cbtop online, you can deal w/ the rest later... make sure to never shuffle away the 3 drop if you're lucky to get it on top of your deck.

if you have a 3 drop - you win.

[fallenphoenix]

I played Surpreme Blue today in a 38-man tourney and duuuude...
I barely ever played a deck so rewarding. I sometimes felt like being very lucky with my draws, flipping blindly with CB, drawing answers when I needed them and being rarely flooded or screwed.

I went 5-0-1 winning vs Goyfsligh, NOProgbant w/o Balance, Goblins, Aggro Loam and Surpreme Blue, drawing vs a strange Kombodeck /w NO+Painter.

I played a standard list with the following changes:
-4 Daze
+4 Spell Snare
-1 Tropical
-1 Tundra
+1 Plains
+1 Forest

I like Spellsnare a lot more, b/c it just fits my play style.

[Raindown]

@Raindown
How are doing in your meta ? what do you have in your list plus SB? the counter/top is good if you could cast it early on and the curve of your opponents deck is with in your curve aswell but if not its kinda useless.



I run two Jittes, and like you said, sometimes it shines and something it just sits out there with no creature.

I also am not a fan of daze, it helps early on but I find drawing often makes me sad. I replaced my dazes with Spell Snares and like being about to counter both a 1cc (with it on top deck with CB) or a 2cc if I can draw it with top.

I'm thinking about running Rock next time, but I'm not sure that will do much better. CB/Top can be soul crushing if I can get it out early. Also NO/Prog is an amazing back up plan and really enjoy it in my deck.

EDIT: I do ok, seems luck of the draw sometimes but usually not great if zoo gets a lot of guys out there.

[thefreakaccident]

A very simple list that I've been loving. Keep in mind, my metagame runs little to no mana-denial, and therefore I can afford to get a little greedy.

lands//18
4 tundra
4 underground sea
4 tropical island
4 polluted delta
2 flooded strand

creatures//11
4 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
3 rhow war monk

spells//31
4 force of will
4 daze
4 thoughtseize
4 counterbalance
4 swords to plowshares
4 brainstorm
4 sensei's divining top
3 ponder

sideboard//
4 relic of progenitus
3 krosan grip
4 E. plague (need something better, honestly doesn't cut it anymore)
4 extirpate (additional hate against ichs, and pretty good against control).

The list has been going pretty good... And i like that it is very straight forward. You either super-disrupt them early game and drop balance/confidant for continued disruption, or just set them off balance early and start the beats.

The deck loses to challice really bad though (learned the hard way against stax last week), but what thresh list doesn't nowadays?

[Joon]

You could play a pair of Vindicates to solve the chalice problem und fill up the cc3 slot. I'd cut a Ponder and a Thoughtseize, as everything is too good.

[Misplayer]

Trygon Predator wins the Stax matchup single-handedly, and often the mirror match. If you play it and protect it (most Stax builds will likely have only a handful of outs), you'll win easily. It also pitches to Force and is considerably easier to cast than Vindicate.

I would be playing 4 Path to Exile in the sideboard of any deck playing white. Obviously it's money versus zoo/tribal decks, but it's big against Ichorid too.