[Archetype] CounterTop

[Enigma]

Aggro Loam and 43 Lands had a really great succes yesterday in St-Louis for the last SCG open of this year. The latter has seen a lot of TOP8 this year and I'm pretty sure everybody should now have this deck in check when planning to attend a large event.

For CB Top (For me, Supreme Blue), it means we need to focus in our weapons to fight it:

Pre-Board, our main goal should try to land CB/Top and let a 2cc+1cc on top, and then put a Tarmogoyf fast + preferably a Trygon to pass over their blockers if they have copies of Mishra's/Monastery/Treetop.

It's manageable, but I would say it's not much more than 55/45 in our favor.

Post-Board, they have responses to CB, but we add more Lftl hate in the form of 4 GY hate. If you have E.E., I would put them to fight early Explo/Bound. Pithing Needle is nice to answer Waste, Maze, Ring... but is easily anwsered too. Siding out is quite easy. For me: +2 Relic, +2 Trap, +2 Needle, +1 Grip, -2 Sower, -3 Firespout, -2 Spell snare.

P-M

[fallenphoenix]

I think Sower is quite a beating against them.

I would not advise to side them out, actually I side them in, because a lot of pilots side out some of the removal like Bolt, Devastating Dreams etc, b/c it hardly matters vs Goyf + Warmonk. Especially true, if you did not show them a Sower G1.

Also, I would't board Rav. Trap, you will almost never get Loam with it and also have a hard time shutting of recursion via Stronghold.

So I'd stick with Sower instead of Trap in your case.
You don't run any blue Blasts? They are also nice vs Crusher and Assault which are their main threats.

[Enigma]

You are speaking about Aggro-Loam while I do about 43 lands, which is not the same deck. Then, yes, Sower is very good against Aggro-Loam.

Your comment about Trap reminds me why I was playing Crypt over it. With the comeback of these decks in the meta, Crypt might be better than trap.

Thanks,

P-M

[fallenphoenix]

Oh yeah, I misread you previous post :)

Obviously no Sowers against 43lands. If you are able to fit any kind of Landhate into your board, that might help a lot (Bloodmoon, Winter Orb, those cards are actually nice in some other MUs, too, i.e. ITF, Landstill...).

Otherwise you've pretty much said it, a swift Clock and Balance@2 to fight loam preboard. Gravehate and perhaps Grip postboard.
If they draw multiple Maze of Ith, chances are you're not going to get there in time before they eventually assemble a critical mass of man-lands.
Also watch out for Worm Harvest, which buys them tons of time if it hits.

Additionally, games vs 43lands tend to be very drawn out, so you might consider scooping up the first game faster than usual, if the situation looks grim and you think you have better chances postboard.
You don't want them to win the first game with 5 minutes left in the round...

[Ombras]

Good Evening at you all!

I'm an italian Magic player who don't speak very well English, therefore I'm sorry for my limitations.
I don't write on this forum by large time, but I would talk about my considerations on Countertop.

First, I play Countertop in all kinds, Supreme Blue, Nassif, Probasco, Dreadstill and much other.

But, looking this metagame, I think that the only version that can survives between a large amount of Zoo, Merfolks, Goblin, Canadian and some Randoms Aggro (Elves-Geddon, Soldiers) is the Japanese.
I test it by two-three mounths, and results are pretty good.

My list is the following:

3x Tropical Island
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Flooded Strand
1x Plains
1x Forest
2x Island

3x Rhox War Monk
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Trygon Predator

2x Elspeth, Knight Errant

4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Counterbalance
3x Daze
3x Firespout
3x Ponder

Sb: I wouldn't reveal at this moment.

The deck is a Stone, so much compact and very very versatile.

Aggro decks are certainly positives MU, except Merfolks, against them we can play at 50-50, and for a Blue-Based deck isn't bad :r:

The real problem, in my opinion, are decks like Rock, Stax, Landstill. We must have an appropriate sideboard against them, but is always so bad win the game.

Any suggestions?

[sauce]

Good Evening at you all!

I'm an italian Magic player who don't speak very well English, therefore I'm sorry for my limitations.
I don't write on this forum by large time, but I would talk about my considerations on Countertop.

First, I play Countertop in all kinds, Supreme Blue, Nassif, Probasco, Dreadstill and much other.

But, looking this metagame, I think that the only version that can survives between a large amount of Zoo, Merfolks, Goblin, Canadian and some Randoms Aggro (Elves-Geddon, Soldiers) is the Japanese.
I test it by two-three mounths, and results are pretty good.

My list is the following:

3x Tropical Island
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Flooded Strand
1x Plains
1x Forest
2x Island

3x Rhox War Monk
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Trygon Predator

2x Elspeth, Knight Errant

4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Counterbalance
3x Daze
3x Firespout
3x Ponder

Sb: I wouldn't reveal at this moment.

The deck is a Stone, so much compact and very very versatile.

Aggro decks are certainly positives MU, except Merfolks, against them we can play at 50-50, and for a Blue-Based deck isn't bad :r:

The real problem, in my opinion, are decks like Rock, Stax, Landstill. We must have an appropriate sideboard against them, but is always so bad win the game.

Any suggestions?

Goblins is also no walk in the park... they just Stingscourge/Wasteland you and Aether vial makes Counterbalance suck most of the time.
I pretty much stopped playing this deck because beating Goblins has been insanely difficult, youre a huge dog vs them unless you get the stones and they draw 7 mountains and keep.

The rock is easier to beat than Staxx... just keep a 3 drop on top for the rock and you should win.
vs Staxx I found Gaddock Teeg/K-grip to be the best, and Crucible is a must counter.

Cheers.

[Ombras]

I agreed for the Rock problem, but see Counterbalance + Top and eventually a Swords for his Tombstalker is, in practice, the only way.

Vs Stax, I use 3x Gaddock Teeg in side, indeed, is more simple post sb ;)

But, do you really consider Goblin a bad mu? I am 30-14 pre and post side vs Goblin, one resolved Firespout means game, one (or better two) resolved Rhox are also game, resolved Elspeth if you have few turns of life is game, you have removal for his Piledriver... In my tests, is an absolute slighty-favorable game.

[sauce]

I agreed for the Rock problem, but see Counterbalance + Top and eventually a Swords for his Tombstalker is, in practice, the only way.

Vs Stax, I use 3x Gaddock Teeg in side, indeed, is more simple post sb ;)

But, do you really consider Goblin a bad mu? I am 30-14 pre and post side vs Goblin, one resolved Firespout means game, one (or better two) resolved Rhox are also game, resolved Elspeth if you have few turns of life is game, you have removal for his Piledriver... In my tests, is an absolute slighty-favorable game.

what goblins build are you 30-14 vs???
is the player terrible?
they usually just get a matron/ringleader and a firespout is not game ending.
if you get to actually swing w/ the RWM - you should win obviously.. usually he just gets stingscourged if you wasted resources on 1st/2nd/etc turn lackeys.

[Draener]

I agreed for the Rock problem, but see Counterbalance + Top and eventually a Swords for his Tombstalker is, in practice, the only way.

Vs Stax, I use 3x Gaddock Teeg in side, indeed, is more simple post sb ;)

But, do you really consider Goblin a bad mu? I am 30-14 pre and post side vs Goblin, one resolved Firespout means game, one (or better two) resolved Rhox are also game, resolved Elspeth if you have few turns of life is game, you have removal for his Piledriver... In my tests, is an absolute slighty-favorable game.

What do you side out for teeg?

[sauce]

What do you side out for teeg?

Firespout?

[Shimi]

I'm playing SupremeBlue (japanese version) and the worst MU is DragonStomp but it is almost dead, Merfolk is very tight but firespout + goyf/RHM usually wins( or T2 CB lock).Goblins is hard but if you could counter ringleader and make them extend so you can Firespout you win.The rock and evagreen is quite easy pre-side and with 3cc card the pos side became fair.
About Elspeth I'm running just 1 in my SB , cause it is good against CB matchs and againts the rest I have other better cards (Threads , Shackles and 4th Firespout).

I was trying an UGB version of CB but you need a very aggro-controlish metagame cause zoo merfolks and goblins became bad MUs.

[Ombras]

I'm playing SupremeBlue (japanese version) and the worst MU is DragonStomp but it is almost dead, Merfolk is very tight but firespout + goyf/RHM usually wins( or T2 CB lock).Goblins is hard but if you could counter ringleader and make them extend so you can Firespout you win.The rock and evagreen is quite easy pre-side and with 3cc card the pos side became fair.
About Elspeth I'm running just 1 in my SB , cause it is good against CB matchs and againts the rest I have other better cards (Threads , Shackles and 4th Firespout).

I was trying an UGB version of CB but you need a very aggro-controlish metagame cause zoo merfolks and goblins became bad MUs.

90%

Dragon Stompy isn't too bad, is difficult, sure, but not in this way: Firespout eat all creatures (only Arc-Slogger remain) and you can cast it under Blood Moon. Play Rainforest and singleton Forest and the MU become better.

I'm also trying an UGB version, but more like Nassif version, with a little red splash to play Spouts on sideboard. But, is a deck for a Control/Aggro Control metagame (not actually playable, in my opinion, but I like too much this :( )


what goblins build are you 30-14 vs???
is the player terrible?
they usually just get a matron/ringleader and a firespout is not game ending.
if you get to actually swing w/ the RWM - you should win obviously.. usually he just gets stingscourged if you wasted resources on 1st/2nd/etc turn lackeys.

With standard Goblin Builds, like Uw and Ubg. Ringleader, if you can remove/destroy/counter vial is the only card that you would counter (you have also a lot of remotions) and it go under Daze (Goblin haven't so many lands). Post side, I usually improve the MU with 4^ Firespout and Needles. Stingscourged aren't too played in our place, we prefer playing StP :tongue:

[Muradin]

What do you think about this list I recently came up with:

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox Warmonk

4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Spell Snare
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares


It is very straightforward and very strong in testing thus far. I felt comfortable playing against Zoo, ANT and Canadian Threshold while Merfolk was a rather difficult matchup preboard but ok postboard.

It is basically a baseruption list I tried to adjust for a more agressive metagame. Any suggestions? Furthermore in testing Daze felt pretty weak, what do you think about it's inclusion?

[Nightmare]

What do you think about this list I recently came up with:

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox Warmonk

4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Spell Snare
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares


It is very straightforward and very strong in testing thus far. I felt comfortable playing against Zoo, ANT and Canadian Threshold while Merfolk was a rather difficult matchup preboard but ok postboard.

It is basically a baseruption list I tried to adjust for a more agressive metagame. Any suggestions? Furthermore in testing Daze felt pretty weak, what do you think about it's inclusion?

Any list in the modern metagame not playing Firespout is doing it wrong. The format is too aggressive to play without a sweeper.

[Ombras]

Any list in the modern metagame not playing Firespout is doing it wrong. The format is too aggressive to play without a sweeper.

This is exagerate. Metagame is various and you can live also in a field full off Rock, Bant, ANT...

It depends by locations and by, also, gameplan.

Firespout is good against?

- Zoo
- Merfolks
- Goblin
- Elves

But, against ANT, Rock, Reanimator, Stax, Dreadstill, other Countertop, Belcher etcetera is a dead card.

Personally, AT THE MOMENT, I run it (playing Supreme Blue) because in Rome metagame is pretty aggro, but, I repeat, it depends by fields.

[Nightmare]

This is exagerate. Metagame is various and you can live also in a field full off Rock, Bant, ANT...

It depends by locations and by, also, gameplan.

Firespout is good against?

- Zoo
- Merfolks
- Goblin
- Elves

But, against ANT, Rock, Reanimator, Stax, Dreadstill, other Countertop, Belcher etcetera is a dead card.

Personally, AT THE MOMENT, I run it (playing Supreme Blue) because in Rome metagame is pretty aggro, but, I repeat, it depends by fields.
Sure, your metagame may vary. But on the whole, we're discussing the LEGACY metagame, which consists largely of what decks are consistently making top 8 at large events. These decks are becoming more and more aggressive, and as such, the legacy metagame is becoming more aggressive.

[oinksterthepig]

I don't think spout is must run card. Look at the top lists from St. Louis. Spout is good against fish and zoo, but a blank against 43 land and loam (all their guys are too big except confidant, and by the time you play spout confidant will have drawn them a card or two).

Even in this meta game their inclusion is debatable.

[Shimi]

@Ombras
I said that the DragonStomp MU is difficult because in my list I DON'T run any forest.. so if they land Blood Moon i just can't remove.I decided to do that and give up DS MU cause it is VERY VERY rare and the forest is never as good as tropical ,tundra or volcanics.

[Linkin Pac]

What is the strategy for this deck when facing Suicide Black with immediate early disruption? I find it difficult to face a turn 1 Ritual, Thoughtseize, Hymn, followed by a turn 2 Confidant backed by Wastelands for my duals and Smothers for almost all my creatures (I play the 4 Tarmogoyf, 4 RWM, 2 Trygon creature set-up with NO/Progenitus). I know that a resolved Counterbalance and Top is usually game if you can get a two-mana card to keep on top of the deck (it practically shuts down everything they have), but getting to that point can be extremely difficult. It's as if every card in Suicide is there to screw over something in our deck, one-to-one, that is much more devastating for us.

[keys]

I play Spell Pierce in the SB, which is helpful against disruption. If your meta has a lot of Sui Black, maybe SB some Divert or Compost.

[yadda]

What is the strategy for this deck when facing Suicide Black with immediate early disruption? I find it difficult to face a turn 1 Ritual, Thoughtseize, Hymn, followed by a turn 2 Confidant backed by Wastelands for my duals and Smothers for almost all my creatures (I play the 4 Tarmogoyf, 4 RWM, 2 Trygon creature set-up with NO/Progenitus). I know that a resolved Counterbalance and Top is usually game if you can get a two-mana card to keep on top of the deck (it practically shuts down everything they have), but getting to that point can be extremely difficult. It's as if every card in Suicide is there to screw over something in our deck, one-to-one, that is much more devastating for us.

in the situation you describe you should lose the game every time. its a product of the match up, control decks will in the game of magic generally lose when the aggro deck has its dream hand. this is just part of the metagame triangle of aggro/control/combo. so if your opponent draws every good card in their deck in the correct order as described above you will lose almost every time.

by playing this deck you are making a conscious decision that sui black can blow you out, then you make card choices which make the match up more manageable, not unloseable but more manageable when they don't have their god hand. nothing else you can do besides that. my point is if your plan is to try and find a way to beat sui or decks like it when they have 7/7 hands you should not be playing CB/Top.

[BackDr0p]

@progenitus problem
try running tarifs in your SB..

What is better a reactive or proactive answer?

In terms of utility, Tarif pretty much does nothing against most decks that run the beast. Survival builds (BGW in particular) that run the NO package will have Seized/Cabal Therapied you multiple times before you have the chance to use the card. It's better to get rid of the threat altogether preemptively. Extract can do that for us. It's also an auto-win card in the ANT, ANT/DD Hybrid MU's and is also pitchable to Force (not that it needs to be mentioned).

[Misplayer]

On Firespout:
If you're concerned about it's versatility, run Engineered Explosives. Slightly weaker against Goblins/Merfolk, but it's golden against Zoo, the mirror, Tomb/Chalice decks and Aggro-Loam.

[Ombras]

On Firespout:
If you're concerned about it's versatility, run Engineered Explosives. Slightly weaker against Goblins/Merfolk, but it's golden against Zoo, the mirror, Tomb/Chalice decks and Aggro-Loam.

This isn't the mean point of discussion.

Firespout is played against ordes of Goblin, Merfolks, Zoo basically.

E. E. versus Goblin e Merfolks (expecially the first) is often a shit card.

[BackDr0p]

It would be better to run EE as a SB card to be brought in for said MU's.

[Misplayer]

I disagree. It makes entirely more sense to run EE main and Firespout SB unless you know your meta is overflowing with swarm aggro. EE is incredibly more versatile and is relevant in considerably more matchups. Firespout out of the board is an easy supplement to your strategy against swarm aggro. Against Goblins/Merfolk, EE can hit Aether Vial, which can otherwise cause you a lot of headaches not answerable by Firespout. Also, good players won't over-extend in the face of a Volcanic Island on the board. Firespout has become such universal hate for Zoo/Goblins/Merfolk that the metagame will shift to ways to combat it or play around it, likely in the near future.

I'm not saying playing Firespout main is wrong, it's proven to be a winning strategy, I just prefer to play it sideboard with EE maindeck.

[Meddling Pimp]

This is the build I'm testing. It has a 2/2 split of firespout and EE. Given that the local meta is very new and unknown, I wanted a mix of removal.

--------------------------------
--------------------------------


3x Tropical Island
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Flooded Strand
2x Windswept Heath
1x Plains
1x Forest
2x Island

3x Rhox War Monk
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Trygon Predator
2x Sower of Temptation

2x Engineered Explosives
3x Sensei's Divining Top

4x Counterbalance

4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
3x Stifle
4x Swords to Plowshares

2x Firespout

[BackDr0p]

@Misplayer

You've got a point. I'd like to add that the Montreal metagame is still rampant with Goblins and Fish. If EE were to be maindecked, we would be ill equipped to get rid of all of Goblin, Merfolk and Zoo's creatures (minus Goyf/Thoctar) like Firespout would. If aggro is lacking in your meta, by all means run EE as a 3 of with Academy Ruins.

I personally do not run any EE's main, but I do run Pithing Needles so as to have an answer to Vial, EE , Plainswalkers and manlands in the appropriate MU game 1.

@Meddling Pimp

After looking at your decklist, there are a few thing which I think need changing. First of all, why is SDT only a 3 of? Do you have some way of fetching it out? This deck creates no real card advantage outside of have CB+Top on the board or wiping 2-3 creatures w/ Firespout (in your case EE + Firespout). Not only that, it has no real way to filter its draw without the help of SDT. SDT should always be a 4 of, so as to maximize the chance of assembling the softlock/improving card quality.

Personally, I would cut all of the Stifles before losing a single SDT. How are you supposed to capitalize on that card (stifle)? How are you getting tempo from it's use? Sure, you'll be able to Stifle that fetch or that EE activation but, does it improve your bad MU's at all? Hell, does it really affect your good ones either?

Maybe going -3 Stifle, +1 SDT, +2 Spell Snare could work out for you.

As for the 2/2 EE/Firespout split, I think it's an acceptable compromise.

[o13g]

I would like to note that all Supreme Blue (and Bant, for that measure) lists have an inherent problem that people need to deal with, rather than debate Firespout again: the number of 2-costs.

Now, I don't want to turn this thread into a math holywar so I'm not going to provide any calculations to back this up, but appealing to experience of successful CT players and builds I would say that you want to have at least 14 2-costs in your deck to be able to reliably find one when you set up SDT+CB.

Recent UGW/x builds apprearing here and there go to as low as 11 2-costs and that is risky.

I can see people arguing in support of 11-12 2-costs by saying "you have fetchlands and top to find them". While that is understandable it still doesn't make the number any more reliable and not being able to find a 2-drop immediately after setting up a CBT is a very bad spot to be in.

I would like to hear from people with extensive experience with CB on that topic. What number of 2-costs do you prefer? How many times have you not found the 2-cost and that lead to a loss?

[Ombras]

This is the build I'm testing. It has a 2/2 split of firespout and EE. Given that the local meta is very new and unknown, I wanted a mix of removal.



If the meta is Unknow, I suggest you to play Baseruption instead of Supreme Blu, a deck that do the better things in a ''standard aggro/combo'' metagame.

[Enigma]

Also, good players won't over-extend in the face of a Volcanic Island on the board. Firespout has become such universal hate for Zoo/Goblins/Merfolk that the metagame will shift to ways to combat it or play around it, likely in the near future.

By speaking uniquely by the card itself, yes, Firespout might works as you said, but in regards of our entirely deck, it doesn't. Generelly our goal is to assemble CB+Top and land a Goyf or a Rhox War Monk. Those two creatures usually creates a dilemna for our opponent, as they need to overextend to pass our wall. That is why firespout is a key. We can land a creature, wait they overextend, then wipe their board and attack with your walls.


I would like to hear from people with extensive experience with CB on that topic. What number of 2-costs do you prefer? How many times have you not found the 2-cost and that lead to a loss?
I always prefered from 14 to 16 cards at casting cost 2, but it changed since CB Top players introduced more cards at 3CC. Firstly it has been Trinket Mage (NQG /w, Brassman NLU), Trygon Predator (Nassif), Vedalken Shackles (Brassman NLU)... Even at some time we had Back To basics, Krosan Grip, Oblivion Ring, Dueling Grounds, Vendilion Clique, Rushing River. Now we added RWM and Firespout. When we realized we were dropping 2CC (less dazes, werebears, predict...) we introduced Spell snare in the deck as a 2 or 3 of's. And while it helps the early game (3 first turns), it can also supplement CB Top later if we don't find our desired 2cc on top.

In regards of E.E., my experience with it in Brassman's list is that I always found it too slow and didn't let me put my own creature to stop the hemorrhage and then clean the board, which is why I prefere the firespout over it. It leads me to keep the Trygon in, no matter what, but it fits nicely with the FS anyway.

Btw, my current list:

// Lands
2 Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest (Depending on where I play, this might be the 4th Trop)

// Creatures (That's been my perfect creature number so far. Sower is good with the resurgence of Tombstalker, Mono Green Chalice (no removal but a shit load of good creatures), Aggro Loam, mirror match.. even Merfolk!
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Trygon Predator
2 Sower of Temptation

// Spells
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
3 Firespout
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare (I cut 1 RWM for it, but I could see going back to 4 RWM, 2 SS in a more Zoo oriented meta)

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Spell Pierce (Helps Landstill and Progenitus MU, which are the worst)
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant (Helps so much in the mirror + Landstill)
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt (Better than trap against 43 lands/Aggro Loam)
SB: 2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress (My meta has a lot of Progenitus decks (Natural Order Rock, CB top NO, Mono Green Chalice, Elves...) and a couple of Merfolks too)

I had WOG for a moment but the WW has been a problem for me so I'm trying Llawan since it's a 4cc spell for CB (so I can let it on top and if they manage to cast Natural order, I still have it to bounce it) and also because my plan against Folks is to needle vial and drop the Cephalid FTW.

P-M

[Draener]

Jace, the Mindsculptor
2uu
Planeswalker - Jace Mythic Rare
[+2]: Look at the top card of target player's library. You may put that card at the bottom of his or her library.
[-0]: Draw 3 cards, then put 2 cards from your hand on the top of your library in any order.
[-1]: Return target creature to its owner's hand.
[-12]: Exile all cards from target player's library. That player then shuffles their hand into their library.
3

New Jace spoiled... looks like it might be good as a 2 of maindeck. Any opinions on this card?

[fallenphoenix]

He seems to be nuts in the Mirror and possibly vs Landstill-esque decks, but not sure it's even remotely relevant vs aggro or combo. It comes down rather late.

In the Mirror you can do sick stuff, like, Brainstorm every turn? Well I guess that's what they printed on it, doh.
Also, screw up their Counterbalance and peek before Krosan Gripping it? Neat.

Bounce seems to be relevant enough to gain some tempo, especially if you have the potential to unsummon their guy three times in a row.

[sauce]

may find a spot in ultimate walker

[Enigma]

I'll test it both MD and Side. It certainly helps against Landstill and he's generaly good with CB but I'm just not sure yet if a 4cc that doesn't have that much an impact on the board will make the cut.

Test and time will tell us. Just don't underestimate it guys. His second ability is purely good.

P-M

[Kuma]

I would like to note that all Supreme Blue (and Bant, for that measure) lists have an inherent problem that people need to deal with, rather than debate Firespout again: the number of 2-costs.

Now, I don't want to turn this thread into a math holywar so I'm not going to provide any calculations to back this up, but appealing to experience of successful CT players and builds I would say that you want to have at least 14 2-costs in your deck to be able to reliably find one when you set up SDT+CB.

Recent UGW/x builds apprearing here and there go to as low as 11 2-costs and that is risky.

I can see people arguing in support of 11-12 2-costs by saying "you have fetchlands and top to find them". While that is understandable it still doesn't make the number any more reliable and not being able to find a 2-drop immediately after setting up a CBT is a very bad spot to be in.

I would like to hear from people with extensive experience with CB on that topic. What number of 2-costs do you prefer? How many times have you not found the 2-cost and that lead to a loss?

I've been fine with twelve 2-costs, nine fetchlands, and four Sensei's Divining Tops. Then again, I just started playing CounterTop again.

Personally, I don't think it's worth it to cut stronger cards for weaker ones just to fill out your Counterbalance curve. More likely than not, you'll be playing the spells in your deck instead of leaving them on top for Counterbalance.

[Shimi]

I would like to hear from people with extensive experience with CB on that topic. What number of 2-costs do you prefer? How many times have you not found the 2-cost and that lead to a loss?

Sometimes you can't find the 2cc spell , but in other hand you can find some 3cc that is much more precious to protect your CB.You must pay attention that most 2cc spells in SupremeBlue you really don't want to play in mid/late game cause they are Daze or CB duplicates so they can rest in top of your library.You also have 3 Ponder and 4 Brainstorm so you can set up your top if you know that the 2cc is very important in this MU.

[chokin]

I have a friend who recently picked up Bant CBTop. I'll post his list and then talk about it some.

2 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Think that's pretty close.

We tested some mirror match or pretty close, as I played the Japanese Bant list (10 creature, Firespout, CBTop). We came to the conclusion that while QP is pretty awesome with all of the exalted and mean stuff in the deck, not being able to stop a resolved CB easily was pretty much game over since the only thing he can play after that is RWM. My Trygon Predator was a lot easier to resolve and then forced him to replay Top every turn. We ended up making the change:
-1 QP
+1 Trygon Predator
Which didn't hurt his exalted stuff too much, but gave him a different answer, and another Firespout survivor if I just nuke the ground. It's also a great Jitte carrier.

Noble Hierarch looks pretty nuts though. He can either accelerate you, color fix, give your guys exalted or help you keep mana if you Daze. Depending on what the field looks like at our next tournament, I might drop Firespout for him. I'm going to have to test though. Basically, drop 2 Volcanics, 3 Spout for 4 NH and either a Jitte or another Ponder. I kinda like the random Jitte. It sucks when you don't have a threat though, which is why I might take Ponder over it.

I was trying to convince him to drop at least 1 Jitte for a Shackles. I don't think that would push his 3cc slot too high. We also talked about potentially throwing in NOPro, but he likes the main as is but the side has some room.

Speaking of the side, this is what we ended up with:
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
1 Trygon Predator
2 Pithing Needle
3 Spell Pierce
3 Open Slot

The opens are heavily dependent on who we see there for the next event on the 2nd. Someone at the last tournament was playing Imperial Painter. Aggro is also pretty popular here as a more budget option. Combo is usually pretty rare. Stax/Stompy is fairly rare too.

Some cards we've discussed as the Open options include:
Gaea's Blessing (for the Painter deck)
Pithing Needle (just one extra)
Path to Exile (to help with aggro some)
Shackles (at least one...wish he played it main)
Teeg (awesome against NOPro, Stax, ANT, Belcher)
Meddling Mage (pitches to FoW, stops ETW in Belcher)
NOPro (Either 2:1 NO:Pro or another NO in place of a Relic)
BEB (Goblins, Imperial Painter, burn)

We're going to do more testing against decks we expect at this event like Zoo, various combo, burn, Merfolk and Stax. I know that Firespout is house against aggro, but with NH and QP, I don't think that'll work out. I think NOPro may be the best option if aggro proves to be tough...and we may even have to squeeze it into the main deck and have an Archangel in the side. Empyrial Archangel is pretty house against burn and decks with few beats.

[bokepa]

I think 18 lands is a bit low, i like 19 more, specially without ponders MD. I guess it's personal prefence.

Also, 3 CB and 3Top wouldn't be better 4 of each? The soft lock IS the reason to play this deck. I would do:
-1 Daze
-1 RWM
+1 CB
+1 Top

With so many exalted, wouldn't Dueling Grounds be good in that deck? I'ts good vs Merfolks, goblins, zoo and dredge. You can also protect planeswalkers with it.

[Cenarius]

Before going to add Jace, the mindsculptor. You should first playtest Elspeth, Knight Errant.
That card is thé nuts in this deck. You're no longer afraid of creature removal, you have a faster clock with him and a creature on the board (or just with his soldier tolken) and its ultimate (if the game has not ended yet) is awesome.

I'm not sure whether Jace, the mindsculptor is such a great idea. I feel Countertop has a lot of trouble with tribal, Rock (its hard trust me), Ichorid. Landstill and other control decks speak for themselves.
Since Jace, the mindsculptor is probably thé best answer against mid-ranged decks it will not help you enough against your bad matchups.
However, we should just playtest the card to be sure.

[BreathWeapon]

Has BANT Counter/Top tried replacing Noble Hierarch with Mother of Runes? While Noble Hierarch accelerates Rhox War Monk, unless you're playing Natural Order as well the acceleration tends to go to waste. Mother of Runes doesn't accelerate, but she does slowdown the opponent by blocking, counter their removal and force your threats thru' their creatures. Also, she's the only 1 drop that survives Firespout, which could make her really synergistic with 4c Bant.

That aside, with Warmonk/Jitte in BANT, has any one tried 2x Sylvan Library for the potential card advantage?

[thefreakaccident]

Have you guys tried a list with knight of the reliquary?

I have been wanting to build a list with it... But i dunno what else I would switch up for it to be worthwhile.

[chokin]

@bokepa - Not my list. I'll talk it over with him. I think he could even drop VC for that extra CB and Top. I haven't thought about Dueling Grounds. It's on color and within the curve. It protects from swarmish aggro. We'll consider testing it, thanks.

While the new Jace is pretty nuts looking, I'm unsure that he'll end up earning a spot. I'd probably use his Brainstorm a lot more than the Scry/Fateseal (other than the first turn you play him), so in a way he's a one sided card advantage generator. Elspeth helps lock down the ground, can Jump and Pump your guys, and then make your stuff unkillable. But she still doesn't see a ton of play.

MoR is probably not as good as Noble Hierarch just because of how flexible he can be. Early on he's acceleration. If the ground gets locked up and you have a RWM, he can be sent in to gain lots of life and potentially trade with multiple creatures. Or you can send a bigger Goyf into a smaller defending one. I guess if you were losing, MoR is a better blocker, but RWM attacking for big amounts can help even out the difference. I'd still lean towards NH.

[psu42]

This past weekend I played the following list to a 1st/2nd place split finish at a 32 player tournament at Jupiter Games in Vestal, NY.

1x Progenitus
3x Rhox War Monk
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Wall of Blossoms

4x Brainstorm
4x Counterbalance
3x Daze
3x Firespout
4x Force of Will
3x Natural Order
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Swords to Plowshares

1x Dryad Arbor
1x Flooded Strand
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Polluted Delta
1x Scalding Tarn
4x Tropical Island
4x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
2x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Hydroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroblast
3x Krosan Grip
2x Path to Exile
3x Ravenous Trap

As you can see it plays 3 Firespouts main with the full complement to handle aggro decks. It plays NO->Progenitus which won me 90%+ of the games.

The one main addition you will see is the inclusion of 3 Wall of Blossoms. They help boost the 2cc card count for Counterbalance, as well as cantripping and slowing down aggro decks. It also represents a weak creature that comes down early and can sacrificed to NO.

The sideboard was mostly aimed at the tier 1 decks, although there were a lot of Dredge and the new Iona Reanimator decks present and I wish I had more graveyard removal; although I won so I can't complain too much.

I had used to play Ponder in the Wall of Blossom slots but found that I was running too many 1 mana cards and could never find any 2cc's for Counterbalance. And I was also using too much mana in the early game for library manipulation and it was hurting against the aggro decks.

Any comments or suggestions?

[sauce]

This past weekend I played the following list to a 1st/2nd place split finish at a 32 player tournament at Jupiter Games in Vestal, NY.

1x Progenitus
3x Rhox War Monk
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Wall of Blossoms

4x Brainstorm
4x Counterbalance
3x Daze
3x Firespout
4x Force of Will
3x Natural Order
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Swords to Plowshares

1x Dryad Arbor
1x Flooded Strand
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Polluted Delta
1x Scalding Tarn
4x Tropical Island
4x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
2x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Hydroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroblast
3x Krosan Grip
2x Path to Exile
3x Ravenous Trap

As you can see it plays 3 Firespouts main with the full complement to handle aggro decks. It plays NO->Progenitus which won me 90%+ of the games.

The one main addition you will see is the inclusion of 3 Wall of Blossoms. They help boost the 2cc card count for Counterbalance, as well as cantripping and slowing down aggro decks. It also represents a weak creature that comes down early and can sacrificed to NO.

The sideboard was mostly aimed at the tier 1 decks, although there were a lot of Dredge and the new Iona Reanimator decks present and I wish I had more graveyard removal; although I won so I can't complain too much.

I had used to play Ponder in the Wall of Blossom slots but found that I was running too many 1 mana cards and could never find any 2cc's for Counterbalance. And I was also using too much mana in the early game for library manipulation and it was hurting against the aggro decks.

Any comments or suggestions?

what did you beat?

[psu42]

Rd1: ANT 2-0
Rd2: Aggro Loam 2-1
Rd3: Dredge 2-1
Rd4: ID
Rd5: ID
T8: Zoo/Goyf Slight 2-1
T4: Iona Reanimator 2-0

[BackDr0p]

How did you manage to make T8 with 2 ID's?

[Tangle.Wire]

Hi, has anyone some thoughts for the UGR Countertop (kinda Probasco style)? As i miss the cards for the white Splash (Monk,Swords,Tundra..) i am only able to run UGR since i normally play Dreadstill and just wanted to give the normal Countertop a Chance.

Here is what i thought of:

4 Tarmogoyf
1 Morphling (i love the card, 1 slot maybe wasted but kept)
2 Trygon Predator

4 Senseis Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
3 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds

4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
3 volcanic island
4 tropical island
4 wasteland
1 academy ruins
3 island

Sideboard:

3 Pyroblast
3 Firespout
3 Submerge
3 Tormods Crypt
3 Krosan Grip

So by playing without white i need at least 1 card beside tarmogoyf that could win me a game and as miss the white/black splash i decided to take a morphling as it was good some time ago when i used it on the Nassif's baseruption list.

So i think the rest of the maindeck is pretty basic, i thought of cutting a top+some for trinket mage, but i feld like having one more copy of the other spells in the list was better since i only would search explosives or the top i've cutted for it.

The Sideboard looks clunky but i figured out that most games i played with countertop/dreadstill i just wanted to have some more against agrro or control/mirror so i dropped the most "random" spells like ancient grudge,hydroblast etc.

So i will have only the spells aviable i had good experiences with.
-> The crypts are not splitted with Relics as i like using them with academy ruins against loam.
-> Submerge is placed over Sowers as i mostly can use them much more against Zoo,Survival,Countertop (normally includes green), ********(sometimes), Elves etc..
-> 3 Grips to have garanted removal beside predator and EE.

[Taurelin]

With red being a more aggressive color, I wonder if 7 creatures (2 of them rather utility than power) is the way to go.

My idea of evolving Probasco.dec was rather to play Firespout main (like the Japanese Supreme-Blue) but using creatures that don't die to it themselves.

Thus I added the Swans-combo, resulting in the following list:

//Lands
4 [CS] Snow-Covered Island
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Forest
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Mountain
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
3 [R] Tropical Island
3 [R] Volcanic Island

//Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [ARB] Lorescale Coatl
3 [SHM] Swans of Bryn Argoll

// Engine
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

//Control
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [NE] Daze
4 [M10] Lightning Bolt
2 [SHM] Firespout

//Card-Quality
4 [CST] Brainstorm
2 [M10] Ponder

//Combo-Stuff
2 [ON] Chain of Plasma
1 [CS] Lightning Storm

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [U] Red Elemental Blast

A similar list (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28834) performed successfully @ a small tournament, as well (2/37). I prefer having 20 lands though, as well as a sufficient amount of basics. Because those decks against which Firespout rules tend to love Wasteland (Goblins, Merfolk etc.).

[Tangle.Wire]

I found Lightning bolt as more usefull than firespout on the maindeck, i'd like to play both maybe 2 spout 3 bolt since theres a lot of aggro around these days. I'd like to have some creatures beside goofy that don't need to be protected at all, thats the fact why i am left with the morphling as it is just the option after goofies being stopped.

I also would love to see Masticore or Flametongue Kavu on a tournament role :D

[PaRa]

I've been playing Swan-combo for four tournaments now and it served me very well so far. 4 : 0 : 1 / 3 : 1 : 1 / 4 : 1 / 2 : 4 (never mind this result) all together 13 : 6 : 2

I've played following list:

//Lands
3 Island
1 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island

//Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lorescale Coatl
3 Swans of Bryn Argoll

// Engine
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

//Control
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Firespout

//Card-Quality
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

//Combo-Stuff
3 Chain of Plasma
1 Lightning Storm

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Firespout
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Blood Moon

The 4th Coatl fits perfectly into the CB Curve: 13 cc1 / 14 cc2 / 7 cc3
I never had the feeling that it slowed me down too much.

[psu42]

I made top 8 because there were 32 players, so after the first 3 rounds there were exactly 4 of us that were still 3-0. And we are just going to play each other the next round most likely, so we drew. And then we played amongst each other so we drew again.

[chokin]

Tangle Wire - Morphling is cute and all, but it makes your Firespout cost one more either to give him a big butt or to give him flying. The Japanese list runs guys with naturally large budunkadunks so that is never an issue. Also, STP is probably much stronger removal than Bolt in that deck. You can splash 2 Volcanic Islands to keep Spout in the board and shit.

Para - Haven't seen Swan Thresh in a while. Looks pretty standard to me. Grats on the wins. I personally would not run Coatl though so I could have the extra Ponders, Top and maybe a Spout. That's just a personal change though. I think that controlling the board while digging for your combo is awesome.

[PaRa]

chokin - the synergy of coatl/Swan is just awseone. If you don't have a chain to combo out each Bolt diggs deeper to find the combo AND the coatl grows insane. In my meta CanTresh and Goyfsligh is quite popular so relying just upon the combo is not a good choice for me. I might replace a Coatl with one extra spout but i won more game due to coatl than combo so far :D

[Adan]

Bur seriously, Firespout is one of the weakest slots in Swanthresh.

A decade ago I top8'd it in Mannheim: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28848

Having 4 Tops is ok, because you basically transform Coatl into a Nantuko Shade without the "until end of turn" by exchanging the Top on the board with the Top on the top (that sounds god awful, yeah) and by that pump it by 1, but I still think the 4th Top should be a 3rd Ponder instead.

edit: now that I see that list and it's curve, I might play that in Hanau... argh. No clue what to play.

[PaRa]

play your dredge, its more bling bling ;) Well Swans is fun to play so i prefer it at the moment :)

[[Ben]]

Hi guys,

I mainly played CB baseruption in the past, then UGr Dreadstill, CB Bant Progenitus, when it was considered as a timmy deck and after a long time playing zoo (because of meta full of Merfolk/goblins), I will enjoy CBTop again !

I saw this list who impressed me :

Mainboard:
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Forest
2 Island
1 Plains
# 61

Sideboard:

3 Trygon Predator
2 Krosan Grip
1 Fracturing Gust
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Path to Exile
3 Children of Korlis
# 15

This list won two big tournaments (German 50+ and NY 177 players). Except the fracturing gust I won't play in sideboard, I was very interested about Children of Korlis who see a fair amount of play in Vintage against Combo and ichorid (a one mana sacrifice beast is not to underestimate).

But I wonder how to sideboard against the most common matchup. Anyone got a rough idea ? What about sideboard table (in/out) for beginners with the deck (all things equal, we have to analyze the deck that we face before blindly side cards in and out) ?

It will be very kind, I got a tournament this sunday, I'll try to do my best to see why those people put 3 path to exile, 3 gaddock teeg (for NY version), no relic of progenitus or tormod's crypt (Children is a bit weak alone).

Regards.

[Tangle.Wire]

Hi again, by testing with the UGR build i posted last days, you're right by packing firespout maindeck works nice but without running Crucible of Worlds my Morphling got pretty weak against Wastelands :rolleyes: So still inspired by supreme blue beating aggro with Monks/Firespouts i wanted to try it without the White splash (still looking for playset tundra) i thought of serendib efreet featuring goofy as a finisher, here is my list:

4 Goofy
3 Serendib Efreet
2 Trygon Predator

4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Firespout
1 Engineered Explosives


4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Island

Sideboard:

3 Pyroblast
4 Seal of Removal
1 Firespout
2 Krosan Grip
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Engineered Explosives
1 XXX

So i fairly like the deck, the Serendib worked out pretty strong, as 3/4 flying can stop a lot of creatures, sometimes even goofy. Also i tried Coatl but i feld like it blocked own Firespout pretty often and doesn't grow as fast as i wanted in most situations. Also i feld like having the 5 flyers (predator and efreets) kept the UGR list pretty fast as bolts can also burn the opponent. I have still 3 slots i am not sure what to fit in:

- 2 Trygon Predator or Krosan Grip for the Mainboard?
- If Grip over Trygon for Mainboard i would have 3 SB Slots.
- I'd like to run 4 wasteland but running some more 3 CC Spells with 20 Lands only keeps my having 3.

[Damnosus]

I was just wondering if I could get some feedback regarding the tweaking of an older list that I have. It is DIF's list from when he was playing a lot of UGw:

18 lands:
4x Flooded Strand
3x Windswept Heath
1x Misty Rainforest (I only have one at the moment-they will replace the other heaths)
3x Tundra
3x Tropical Island
1x Forest
1x Plains
2x Island

13 Creatures:
4x Goyf
3x War Monk
4x Pridemage
2x Trinket mage

29 Spells
1x Explosives
4x Top
4x CB
4x FOW
4x BS
4x StP
3x Ponder
3x Daze
2x Jitte


In the tournaments that I have played in/testing that I have done, I have found that the trinket mages are pretty lackluster. They are slow, don't really achieve much (because all the library manipulation finds most things anyway), and they don't carry a jitte all that well. So I feel that they need to go. Additionally, this would mean that the lone EE should be removed as well. So in my opinion, I have 3 slots to play with.

These are my thoughts in regards to filling them: I need the 4th war monk. The rise of aggro makes him a necessity, especially because I am not running 4 colors (I like consistency and stability over raw power in my decks) and I am not running NO+progenitus (kinda reminds me of when I played Swan thresh-the added combo takes makes the whole deck kinda gimicky).

That leaves me with two slots. I have a couple of ideas, but I am not sure which would be best. I could just add 2x vendilion clique-this would give me another beater as well as a better game against landstill. I could remove a ponder and go with 3x spell snare-not sure how good that would be. I could also remove a ponder and a pridemage for 4x Noble Hierarch. Again, I don't know which is best.

Any input would be great. I only ask that your suggestions don't change the deck too much (I mean I guess I could go 4 color or NO-Pro, but yea I would need to spend a decent amount of cash to do so). Thanks!

[PhanTom_lt]

3 Hierarchs work well enough for me. You could remove Jittes, they always seemed lackluster MD.

[phamtastic]

hi all. just played at the SCG LA. went 5-3 playing NO Bant Countertop. Lost to zoo, goblins, and dragon stompy (doesn't help when topping every turn gets you 3 lands :rolleyes: ) I won against 2 goblin players, a rock deck, B/U reanimator, and got a bye as my 2 win (dude dropped without saying anything to the judges).

A last minute thing i did to the deck was switch out my 2 QP's and spell snares for a trygon predator and ponders. I found that i was missing the QP's a lot more since they're much more instant removal than predator is. On a side note, i didn't play combo all day, which i thought was weird.

[Damnosus]

I am curious about the recent success of Pro+countertop lists when compared to Supreme blue lists. I was initially of the opinion that supreme blue had a better chance against the current metagame (what with firespout being so effective against zoo). Was I wrong in this initial assessment? Is popularity the only reason that Pro+countertop is doing so well?

[Shimi]

I am curious about the recent success of Pro+countertop lists when compared to Supreme blue lists. I was initially of the opinion that supreme blue had a better chance against the current metagame (what with firespout being so effective against zoo). Was I wrong in this initial assessment? Is popularity the only reason that Pro+countertop is doing so well?

Speaking about SupremeBlue vs PRO countertop MU my experience shows that SupremeBlue is much favoreable , but agains other MUs a progenitus just end the game since there are few out if you cannot race him.PRO is very popular nowdays so you can expect more good results and SupremeBlue seems a little more dificult to pilot. PRO decks usually can win the game just topdecking a NO with some hierach or dryad or even a dead QP in the board agains Rock/zoo/loam... decks when a SupremeBlue would not win top decking anything.

I'm a SupremeBlue/Dreadstill player so I look at PRO countertop as a dreadstill much more slow but much more aggresive and secure( since they can`t remove your PRO but NO costs 2GG and you always can beat them with your guys).So PRO is also their strong point and weak point winning or losing games , I just don`t play PRO countertop because i think there is so many "dead" draws in them mid game.

[Kuma]

I am curious about the recent success of Pro+countertop lists when compared to Supreme blue lists. I was initially of the opinion that supreme blue had a better chance against the current metagame (what with firespout being so effective against zoo). Was I wrong in this initial assessment? Is popularity the only reason that Pro+countertop is doing so well?

Natural Order is pretty effective against Zoo too. Natural Order is pretty effective against everything.

Natural Order lists matchup better against Loam, CounterTop, and Ichorid.

They're about the same against Landstill, Canadian Threshold, and ANT.

Supreme Blue is better against Zoo, Merfolk, and Goblins.

That said, I think Natural Order lists are better against Zoo, Merfolk, and Goblins than Supreme Blue is against Loam, CounterTop, and Ichorid.

[psu42]

My list is a hybrid of both decks...I play both NO-Prog. and Firespouts like Supreme Blue. I split the finals of the last tournament I took it to, going 5-0-2 on the day.

NO-Prog. won me like 90% of my games on the day. And it definitely is good versus zoo (but so isn't siding in Path to Exiles and a set of Blue Elemental Blast effects).

I also think I have a pretty solid matchup against goblins and dredge (even without sideboard). The only matchup I honestly think I dislike is merfolk, even though I run those mainboard Firespouts. Not that the matchup is really horrible, but some of their dudes are just a pain in the ass. And if they resolve like vial or early standstills it is just not very pretty sometimes. Bringing in Paths and REBs does help, however.

[PhanTom_lt]

Could you post your decklist? Now trying to decide between NOThresh and regular UGw Countertop.

[Fons]

I've been playing Swan-combo for four tournaments now and it served me very well so far. 4 : 0 : 1 / 3 : 1 : 1 / 4 : 1 / 2 : 4 (never mind this result) all together 13 : 6 : 2

I've played following list:

//Lands
3 Island
1 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island

//Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lorescale Coatl
3 Swans of Bryn Argoll

// Engine
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

//Control
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Firespout

//Card-Quality
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

//Combo-Stuff
3 Chain of Plasma
1 Lightning Storm

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Firespout
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Blood Moon

The 4th Coatl fits perfectly into the CB Curve: 13 cc1 / 14 cc2 / 7 cc3
I never had the feeling that it slowed me down too much.

I've been testing this list and so far it has been performing very well for me.

[wmagzoo7]

I saw in a few decklists the use of Wall of Roots and others using Wall of Blossoms in what seems to be the same spot to help support NO Pro. and I was wondering if anyone could give me help on which is better. I'm currently testing out a Supreme Blue w/ NO Pro. like Psu42 talked about and I like it but am not sure if Wall of Blossoms is better than Wall of Roots would be.

[Enigma]

I played Supreme Blue w/ NO this week-end and went 5-2 at Jupiter dual for duals.

Backdr0p and me basicly took Justin's list but changed WOB for Wall of roots. We found them REALLY good all day long. Bigger at defense, faster NO and the most important for us was its ability to help against mana denial, which is a big weakness for the deck.

We also had a damn good sideboard:


// Lands
1 Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
2 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
1 Progenitus
3 Wall of Roots

// Spells
3 Firespout
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Counterbalance
3 Natural Order

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Trygon Predator
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Thwart
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 2 Pithing Needle

I only lost to Zoo and Dream halls. I'm pretty sure I have a positive MU against Zoo, but this time I never drew into CB nor Natural order (except the game I won where I had NO on turn 3). Against Dream halls:

G1: I beat with goyf while he is cantripping. He goes for dream halls, I force, he forces, it resolves. He puts Progenitus in play with only 1 card remaining in his hand. At my turn I NO with dryad and swing with goyf, he goes to 9. At this turn he draws, discard brainstorm and plays progenitus. DAMN!

G2: I counter Show and tell with CB but I dont have any of my 6 "FOW". He eventually goes for Dream halls FOW back up and I lose to Conflux/Cruel loop.

Anyway, great deck and props to Justin!

P-M

[BackDr0p]

Personally, I would vouch for Wall of Roots. Not only does it give you the possibility to power out T3 NO's it is a must in any meta that has 43 Lands, Aggro Loam and Tempo Threshold. It allows you to fix your mana and get that critical double green. The idea came from watching BGW Survival use the creature to much success. The fact that you can use its mana on BOTH turns is amazing.

Furthermore, it's the only viable wall that can block Goyf successfully(and survive), produce mana and live through Firespout. When facing Zoo, most players are forced to waste a PTE or 2 burn spells to get rid of it, since they just can't get around it. Although, it doesn't cantrip, it is essentially more useful in the deck than the latter. It's also a better top deck since it gives you more time to find answers.

While I was playing at this weekends Duels for Duals in Vestal Wall of Roots was MVP all day, buying me multiple turns against aggro.

Edit1: P-M you beat me to the punch.
Edit2: I have to second that. This deck is awesome and very consistent. Even though I went 4-3 losing to Zoo twice and my team mate Yan Lampron, playing Landstill, I wouldn't hesitate to pick this deck up again.

[Meddling Pimp]

I played Wall of Roots in my build last night and REALLY liked it. In 3 matches, I landed a turn 3 NO twice (running 4 Noble Hierarch and 2 Wall of Roots). In other games, it was a great blocker and mana fixer.

[Irish_Mafia]

So, I played Pro Bant w/ top and I have been having trouble with Landstill. I drew with one and lost to one. At one point I got up to 45 and he was down to 6 and he somehow came out of it, to win. Any advice?

[BackDr0p]

Landstill is a deck which tries and can answer everything. Unfortunately for us, all of our threats are easily answered by 4 cards: Wrath of God, Nevinyrral's Disk, Humility and Engineered Explosives. Two of which, are unanimously run in the majority of list floating around. There is no way you can play the control role in the matchup unless you manage to assemble Counterbalance + Top and protect it. Sadly, that is something easier said than done.

The only thing I can suggest is running additional Pithing Needles somewhere in your 75. It helps the match up to a certain extent. Shutting off Factories, Explosives (pre-emptively) and Plainswalkers.

To win, you need to resolve an early NO and protect him. Otherwise, you don't really stand a chance.

Another thing, your life total in magic means nothing, board position does. Remember that.

[psu42]

I never thought of Wall of Roots over Wall of Blossoms, but that sounds pretty solid actually. Helps to speed up the deck a bit into Progenitus and also would help in the Merfolk matchup when trying to get around Daze and Cursecatcher.

I think you are running to much weird stuff in the sideboard. 1 Llawan seems kind of random and stuff like EE is never really needed.

[Irish_Mafia]

Landstill is a deck which tries and can answer everything. Unfortunately for us, all of our threats are easily answered by 4 cards: Wrath of God, Nevinyrral's Disk, Humility and Engineered Explosives. Two of which, are unanimously run in the majority of list floating around. There is no way you can play the control role in the matchup unless you manage to assemble Counterbalance + Top and protect it. Sadly, that is something easier said than done.

The only thing I can suggest is running additional Pithing Needles somewhere in your 75. It helps the match up to a certain extent. Shutting off Factories, Explosives (pre-emptively) and Plainswalkers.

To win, you need to resolve an early NO and protect him. Otherwise, you don't really stand a chance.

Another thing, your life total in magic means nothing, board position does. Remember that.

I agree , i tried to protect my counter top, but its really difficult. I usually sided them out for teegs (trying to act aggro like) and it helped me quite a bit. I was shutting off alot of their outs and win cons.

And I know my life total means nothing, im just saying i had great board position as I had 2 RWM in play. He seemed to have infinite removal (granted the deck plays a shit ton).

If Landstill seems to be played alot in my meta I may put a 4th NO in the side to try and get one out quick.


Also on the wall of roots discussion, this seems interesting. I never thought of wall of roots but yes, it may replace my Jitte's

[Enigma]

I'll try to summerize the idea behind each cards in sideboard:

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Trygon Predator
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Thwart
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 2 Pithing Needle

2 Grip/1 Grudge/1 Trygon/2 EE split:
This split comes from the fact that we were in need of faster answers to Chalice against Aggro Loam than just Grips. Having Enchantress won the last SCG 5K in LA, Stax the one in Philly and Pro Bant having a large success meant we were in need of Trygon. We previously had 2 Trygons/2 Grips but decided to go +1 Grudge because it's 2 turn faster than Trygon. EE helped sooo much against Aggro Loam when we tested it that we kept it in. I have to say there might have 1 too much card dedicated to Artifacts/Enchantements here. Probably -1 Grudge might be an ok choice.

2 Tormods/2 Relic:
I wanted to have 5 grave hate, but with the addition of 2 EE we went down to 4.

2 Thwart:
This card is FOW #5-6 against Landstill, Mirror and Combo (not as good in this MU, but better than a lot of thing MD). In testing this card won me a lot of games backing my Natural Order or countering NO, Wrath or Humility while PRO is on board.

1 Llawan:
1 more answer to Natural Order. It's also our only answer to inkwell and a very good card against Dream Halls and Merfolks.

2 Needle:
These were 2 Sower for the mirror, but we decided we had already a lot of good cards against the mirror and still had difficulties against Wasteland and Vial. These slots could be something different, though, they made me win a game against Merfolk last saturday.

I must say my sideboard with supreme blue has always been focused on Aggro-Control/Control, more than aggro. On a more aggro-ish metagame, I wouldn't run that SB (prolly add some hydroblasts or paths to exile).


P-M

[Kanabo]

can anyone tell me how this ugb list is? its kinda like my homebrew.

UGB Countertop

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Trygon Predator

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Ghastly Demise
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Stifle
4 Thoughtseize
2 Pernicious Deed

4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest

SB:
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Extirpate

[Argen]

can anyone tell me how this ugb list is? its kinda like my homebrew.

UGB Countertop

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Trygon Predator

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Ghastly Demise
3 Sansei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Stifle
4 Thoughtseize
2 Pernicious Deed

4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest

SB:
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Extirpate

You're a dog to merfolk and any deck running wastelands. You probably want to go down to about 6 fetchs and run at least 20 lands. You're not tempo thresh and you need lands to be activating top for counterbalance. Main deck deeds seem awkward when they blow up everything you play.

[Misplayer]

I agree , i tried to protect my counter top, but its really difficult. I usually sided them out for teegs (trying to act aggro like) and it helped me quite a bit. I was shutting off alot of their outs and win cons.

This. But if you keep CounterTop in, then you have the ability to lock the Landstill player out entirely. With CounterTop and Teeg on the board, the Landstill player desperately needs to find Vindicate to get out of that jam (and hope you don't have a 3 on top).

Also, CounterTop shuts off Landstill's targetted removal, cantrips and some of their counterspells. That kind of virtual card advantage is huge against, Landstill because they need to play many, many cards to win. Also, slow-roll your threats. Let them go 1-for-1 with Wrath. Save Force for EE@2, Elspeth(!!) or Vindicate if you can't flip a 3CC. If you can float a 4CC on top then and flip it even once, they'll start to question whether they can resolve anything through CBTop and how high they'll have to pay EE to get it through.

I have a pretty good idea of how to beat landstill because I've lost with it a fair amount. Staring down an opposing Couterbalance/Top on the board is not fun unless I can resolve Elspeth or EE away the Counterbalance. Guessing what CMC is not in the top 3 with EE isn't fun either.

[Irish_Mafia]

This. But if you keep CounterTop in, then you have the ability to lock the Landstill player out entirely. With CounterTop and Teeg on the board, the Landstill player desperately needs to find Vindicate to get out of that jam (and hope you don't have a 3 on top).

Also, CounterTop shuts off Landstill's targetted removal, cantrips and some of their counterspells. That kind of virtual card advantage is huge against, Landstill because they need to play many, many cards to win. Also, slow-roll your threats. Let them go 1-for-1 with Wrath. Save Force for EE@2, Elspeth(!!) or Vindicate if you can't flip a 3CC. If you can float a 4CC on top then and flip it even once, they'll start to question whether they can resolve anything through CBTop and how high they'll have to pay EE to get it through.

I have a pretty good idea of how to beat landstill because I've lost with it a fair amount. Staring down an opposing Couterbalance/Top on the board is not fun unless I can resolve Elspeth or EE away the Counterbalance. Guessing what CMC is not in the top 3 with EE isn't fun either.

Alright, Ill give it a try. Thanks for the input. I guess I really only have to stall long enough to resolve a NO. Then Ill win anyway

[Kuma]

Spell Pierce is pretty awesome against Landstill too.

[Kanabo]

The 2 MD Deeds are for Aggro, I can drop CB+TOP and if that doesn't work to stop them, I can just blow it all up with deed. I found that it is somewhat of am all around good card against our bad matchups.

[Enigma]

Speaking of Supreme Blue w/ NO, I found the MD pretty much set, except from the fact we are in need of a card that can manages artifacts and enchantements.

Depending on the metagame, Backdr0p and me mentionned the possibility to switch some MD RMW to the board for 1/2/3 copies of Trygon predators.

How zoo can still beat us?

But as NY has a more Zoo oriented meta, we were in need of the RWM MD. Though, the fact we both lost to the deck probably means that our MU wasn't so great as we were thinking. CB, Goyf, Wall of Roots, Firespout and RWM all felt sooo good against them that we lacked testing too much against the deck. The games we won against it last saturday always had a Progenitus involved, and the game we were trying to fight fairly, it didn't work properly. For example: A game I was at 6 lifes with 2 Goyfs and a RWM in play, passing the turn against an empty board and a guy with 1 card in hand. I was smelling the recover so much, he drew chain lightning, which was a good combination with Bolt for my doom.

Sideboard ajustement in regards of this

That makes me think we were in need of an additionnal weapon against Zoo, mostly from the sideboard. But there is two restrictions to that plan. 1. Everything looks good in the MD, what we would side out? 2. What to take out from SB.

The latter seems easier to resolve as we can reduce the artif/enchant hate from our board from 6 to 4. Probably something in the lines of 2 Grip/2 Trygon. Needles can also be changed to more direct weapons.

List of cards I would consider to try winning by the "fair way"

Path to exile
Hydroblast
Lightning Helix
Ajani Vengeant

List of cards I would consider to try winning with the combo

1-3 Mystical Tutor

The card search for Firespout or Natural Order, two cards that are gamebreaking against aggro.

I feel that the cards I would enter to fight the fair war have similar effects that the one I would side out. Daze is probably the only exception, which would be the card I would side out first. Though, I feel that searching for the combo might work. The restriction is that the zoo player would then fire away our creature that we are looking to sacrifice for the natural order.

P-M

[Skeggi]

can anyone tell me how this ugb list is? its kinda like my homebrew.

Here are some things that I noticed:

You run Pernicious Deed in a deck with 18 lands, of which 4 are Wastelands. Pernicous Deed is quite mana demanding, if you must run Pernicious Deed, you want to up your land count to at least 20, probably 22 if you insist on running Wastelands. Further, Pernicious Deed in CounterTop is something I consider bad tech. It's The Fear does it, I know, but that's what I consider a mediocre deck.

Stifle is a tempo card, CounterTop isn't a tempo deck. It doesn't match well. Usually you want to drop your counterbalance asap, not making it possible to leave a mana open for Stifle. It's bad synergy.

In any UGB list I'd expect at least 2 Sower of Temptation. It's a powerful tool once you assemble CounterTop.

All in all, I'm generally not happy with Dark Confidant in a CounterTop deck, although it seems like a must, because it has synergy with Sensei's Divining Top, it prevents you from effectively 'floating' 2 cards with useful cmc on top of your deck (for instance cmc2 and 3); making it easier to break the softlock. Because Dark Confidant isn't that good in CounterTop, Thoughtseize is only 'ok' and Pernicious Deed wipes your own board, I'm not a big fan of the black splash. It's more worthwhile going white. Has better removal anyway.


How zoo can still beat us?
I haven't had this problem. I simply board in Pithing Needle for Qasali Pridemage (perhaps some Spell Snares and extra Path to Exiles). Next to that you just make sure your Rhox War Monk lives, assemble CounterTop and you should be fine.

On a sidenote: the NOPRO combo is clunky and a resolved NO doesn't exactly mean you win. I find Elspeth to be a much more gracious addition.

[wmagzoo7]

Enigma I think that Hydroblast is probably your best bet. While Helix and Ajani Vengeant as well as Path are all good, the late game burn is usually what gets you. Hydroblast also can help out against the various red decks you will face and want answers against. Mystical if you ask me doesn't seem to be the way to go about it because not only does it forecast your plan of action changing their play (Killing your guys if you go get Natural Order) but it also skips a draw which is something you don't want to do against a deck where you are constantly trying to keep your head above water so to speak.

[Shugyosha]

@Enigma:

Yes I would also suggest Blasts or Path and switch Daze on the draw and Wall of Roots on the play. Cutting the wall seems not logical at first but you board in removal to deal with a threat instead of playing a more expensive wall that deals with an attacker. Against Zoo you need to clear his board and then swing, removal helps you more than wall here as you also cannot use the mana ability as often as in other matches.

[psu42]

Zoo is really popular up here.

I run 2 BEBs and 2 Hydroblasts--cutting dazes and walls.

It seems like a lot of hate for one deck, but it is essential to winning the matchup in the first place, yet alone beating one of the most popular and powerful decks in the room.

[Enigma]

It's really underplayed here, in Montreal, so I never thought the MU could be anyhow hard. You guys are right about adding Hydroblasts. I just hate dedicating so much slots to generic aggro when there's a full ton of decks to face in legacy. That's the reason I'm playing Supreme blue over Pro Bant. I'll try removing slots from the board to add 3-4 blasts.

P-M

[psu42]

A sideboard is dedicated to beating the more difficult matches and metagaming...I wouldn't create just a generic sideboard. Just go into a tournament making a sideboard for just that tournament.

[wmagzoo7]

So I guess the question is what you can cut from the board to fit in some Hydro/ Blue Elemental Blasts. I guess you could probably cut the Ancient Grudge as well as the 2 Needles if need be but besides that I'm not sure what you would remove. Also, Enigma do you really need 4 each of Counterbalance and Sensei's Top or could one or the other be cut back to 3? I remember in other Counterbalance Top decks I have seen there were less than 4 which seems like it could be a way of fitting in Trygon Predators or some other Artifact/ Enchantment removal in the main.

[Enigma]

So I guess the question is what you can cut from the board to fit in some Hydro/ Blue Elemental Blasts. I guess you could probably cut the Ancient Grudge as well as the 2 Needles if need be but besides that I'm not sure what you would remove. Also, Enigma do you really need 4 each of Counterbalance and Sensei's Top or could one or the other be cut back to 3? I remember in other Counterbalance Top decks I have seen there were less than 4 which seems like it could be a way of fitting in Trygon Predators or some other Artifact/ Enchantment removal in the main.
@SB: I think you are right. I would do 3 Grip/2 E.E./4 GYH/2 Thwart/1 Llawan/3 Blasts

@CB/TOP: When speaking of legacy, I generally do not listen too much to pro players, due to their lack of play and knowledge of the format, but there is one thing all CB/Top players learned from LSV/Nassif/Brassman performance from last GP: Top is your best spell, never go below 4.

P-M

[BackDr0p]

The quantity of CB's and SDT's has been generally accepted to be 4 of each. Unlike Dreadstill, we do not have tutoring effects like Trinket Mage to assemble our soft lock. Since we create no real card advantage with the other cards in the deck, SDT+CB is essential in order to make up for that.


Top is your best spell, never go below 4.QFT. I would rather always have an active top than a blind Counterbalance on the field.

The only slot I see as being somewhat flexible maindeck would be RWM. Due to its intensive colour requirements, we tend to side him out in various MU: Aggro Loam, 38Lands. Reducing its number would significantly hurt our aggro and Zoo MU's specifically. If the need ever arose, we would probably only switch out one RWM for a Predator. This will free up one more slot it the SB. Ancient Grudge could also be let go, as it only really shines in artefact heavy MU's like Landstill, Staxx, Dreadstill and Affinity.

Edit: 3 Blasts seems like a good number. The meta doesn't see enough read to warrant a full playset.

[andrew77]

I recently started testing a u/r/g/w countertop deck after being very impressed with grim lavamancer in a tempo thresh list. My main problem running tempothresh is the fact that you have no great way to end the game. Anyway here is what I am testing atm...

4 sensei's divining top
4 counterbalance

3 flooded strand
2 scalding tarn
2 misty rainforest
2 island
3 volcanic island
3 tropical island
3 tundra

4 brainstorm
4 swords to plowshares
3 daze
4 force of will
3 spell snare
2 fire/ice

4 tarmogoyf
1 jotun grunt
3 meddling mage
4 grim lavamancer
2 threads of disloyalty

Some thoughts:

In my testing stifle/wasteland can usually lose you a lot of games. Stifle can be completely dead lategame and you cannot run 4 colors with wasteland which was something I really wanted to do.

Grim lavamancer is pretty amazing. Merfolk rolls over to him. Aggro decks also have to kill him. Even against other countertop decks he kills hierarchs and confidants. They usually actually have to kill lavamancer meaning they have less removal for goyf.

Meddling mage can randomly win games. He is probably the weakest card in the maindeck but being able to have him name loam can be stone cold nuts.

[miko]

I'm not sure if Shackles would be superior to Threads. Just because it is more "flexible".
Random Grunt means 2-3 Grunts in board?

[Enigma]

There has been a couple of guys asking me about the deck, and how it plays. While I do not consider myself as a pro CB top player, I have a couple of experiences I wanted to share with everyone. So I'm just pasting the content of a private message here.

Firstly, you need to know that CB has 3 friends in this deck: Sensei's Divining Top, Brainstorm and Fetches. While the 2 first are pretty obvious, the latter isn't usually used properly by every CB Top player. I personnaly never Fetch early as a "thinning effect". I always keep em until: 1. I need a color, 2. I need that land for a spell, 3. I want to use brainstorm to its full potential, 4. I want to see 6 cards with top, or 5. I only have CB in play, try a random flip, if I don't want the card, let's shuffle.

In late game, I keep useless spells/lands to throw back in the deck with a brainstorm/fetch. Also, brainstorm has his use not only after you have CB on the board, but before. Let's say you have this hand:

Brainstorm, Tropical Island, Fetch, Counterbalance, Sensei's Divining Top, Daze, Tarmogoyf.

What would you do?

What I would do: Play fetch, pass. EOT crack fetch, Brainstorm, Put Top and Tarmo, draw Top, cast CB. Now you are immune to spell snare and possibly a 2CC next turn. It's also depends what you are playing against. Maybe the 1CC might be a better call if he doesn't have counterspell, has you still have the daze for its 2cc card. It also depends if you are on the play or draw.

All these little uses of fetches and brainstorm will win you games. Waiting for a fetch to use after a brainstorm will increase dramatically your chances of having responses to what your opponent is doing.

On an other topic: Always try to remember what's your current role in the game. Sometimes you draw a 3 creatures hand, and you have to think to your possibilities to make the aggro role happens. Sometimes you have to play that CB before landing a creature, sometimes not. Sometimes you have to forget everything in your deck and trying to focus on casting Natural Order. If you are facing CB/Top yourself, don't throw spells into it, except if they are short on lands. I would rather wait to find Misty Rainforest or Dryad Arbor and try to back up my Natural Order (they would most likely don't have the 4cc). Let's say against Landstill: You have 2 cards that can win you games: Cb and Natural Order. Adjust your plan to that. You can play the control role by backing up your CB and keeping 3 and 4cc on top. Or you can just NO with Grips(against Humility and Moat), FOW and Thwarts as back ups. Speaking of Natural Order: If you plan casting it against control, and they have a full grip, I would wait to cast NO without passing priority to them, so they could destroy my creature I'm planning to sacrifice. With Dryad, it demands 1 more land, but it worths it.

Your creatures are walls. Every. Don't be afraid to land a creature to stop the hemmorhage, and then firespout their entire board away. If they burn in response, you'll maybe lose your creature but you will have saved at least 5 damage, which is good enough to temporize. Know when to use Swords and when not. If you have spout, don't throw a stp just to save 3 damages.

Good luck, and be wise with CB! It demands pre-thinking so be that guy who knew what your opponent was playing and succeed in your "random" flips. :cool:

P-M

[Shimi]

[I]
Good luck, and be wise with CB! It demands pre-thinking so be that guy who knew what your opponent was playing and succeed in your "random" flips. :cool:


It is funny when "noob" players say "luck blind flip" when you can read their minds and counter their plays.

Also you could keep a 2cc on their T3 with Daze for their 3cc spell.

[Misplayer]

To go along with the Couterbalance protips guide, when you resolve CounterTop, always float cards! Often times Goyf + RWM are better on top of your library than in play with a neutral board and CounterTop on your side. While this limits you to drawing your third card every turn and essentially puts you in "topdeck" mode (until you find another 2CC or 3CC, that is), you've already won the game against 85% of the format, and maintaining the soft-lock is more important than digging for business. I've seen aggro-minded players digging for Stifle for their Dreadnought (different deck, same concept) while shuffling away Dazes and Grips on top of their library. One gives away most of the strength of CounterTop by doing this. This may seem obvious to many posters in this thread, but for the guy who just finished building CounterTop after playing Zoo for 6 months, it might not be so apparent.

Also, excellent tips, Enigma. At first I thought you misunderstood the sacrificing part of Natural Order (which seemed strange because you appear to have a firm grasp on the rules) but then I realized you were saying to not retain priority after resolving the creature you plan to sacrifice, correct?

[Enigma]

Also, excellent tips, Enigma. At first I thought you misunderstood the sacrificing part of Natural Order (which seemed strange because you appear to have a firm grasp on the rules) but then I realized you were saying to not retain priority after resolving the creature you plan to sacrifice, correct?
That's correct. I may have poorly written that sentence, but what I wanted to say is: It's correct to wait 1 more mana to cast Natural Order to be able to fetch for dryad, and immediatly sacrifices it to natural order. I was opposing this situation to this one: End of your opponent's turn, you have 3 lands + Misty and you fetch Dryad EOT, so you can use it as a your 4th land to cast NO. While this is a turn faster, I wouldn't do it against decks packing a lot of spot removals (except if you have CB TOP).

And A+ to what you said about slowing the game when we have CB/Top locking the opponent.

P-M

[hungryLIKEALION]

I just went 3-2-1 at AU playing Enigma's list -1 CB +1 War Monk, -1 Tundra +1 Plains.

I beat Tempo Thresh, beat UGB CBTop, IDed with my brother (playing zoo), beat Bant CBTop, lost to Merfolk, and lost to a guy playing Enigma's exact list in round 6.

I'll post a more detailed report later, but my analysis of the format is offically that Progenitus CBTop is by far the greatest strategy in the format. The hydra turns the zoo matchup around completely, and no matter how much advantage you grind out in the mirror match (And it's a very stressful and hard fought mirror), if they resolve NO you just lose, straight up.

I'm really frustrated right now so I'm kinda bitchy, but I have to give serious props to Enigma for this list. It's absolutely awesome, and if I was better at drawing Natural Order, I woulda made top 8. ;p

[wmagzoo7]

Here's my report of the tournament:
My adventure began last night where I went to my friend John Jones' to pick up cards at 10:00 so that I could pick up about $600 worth of cards so I could play Enigma's list for Supreme Blue. I end up staying there until 11, then dropping off the car (I'm 17 and curfew for driving is 11) and going back to John's so we could brew him a list. Unfortunately for John, he has 80 Duals and 8 Goyfs from sharing a collection and playing 5-color he doesn't have a lot of critical cards to build decks (Stifles, Natural Orders, Mishra's Factorys, Lion's Eye Diamonds) so he was limited to what he could build since he didn't want to buy cards for just this tournament. At about 12:30 he decides he's not going to play after brewing up lists for some crazy decks that didn't seem that good, so he just takes me home. Day of the tournament rolls around and I of course wake up late so I get a 2 minute shower and like 3 scoops of my cereal at 10:30 when the tournament starts at 11. Luckily enough for me I live 15 minutes away, but I still needed to get 3 Natural Orders, 2 Thwarts, 1 Engineered Explosives, and 1 Llawan. Just as the pairings are going up I finish my list, grab a sick WoW World's playmat and get my final Natural Order so I'm ready to go. Here is what I played:
Lands
1 Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
2 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
1 Progenitus
3 Wall of Roots

// Spells
3 Firespout
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Counterbalance
3 Natural Order

Sideboard
2 Krosan Grip
1 Trygon Predator
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Thwart
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Cryptic Command
3 Hydroblast

Round1: Belcher
Game1: I think he opened on a stinker, possibly a mulligan down to 5, and I think he opened on nothing. I started out with Top and then a turn or so later a Counterbalance. The turn I play Counterbalance he runs out Lotus Petal, to which I flip Flooded Strand, and then he plays 2 Lion's Eye Diamonds because he thought that Flooded Strand had no CMC rather than 0. He proceeded to scoop when the judge explained how it worked to him.
Game2: My opponent started off by not playing anything at first and then 0 cost artifacts to avoid having to discard while I start with something reasonable. Critical turn rolls around, he goes RFG Elvish Spirit Guide, cast Tinder Wall, Sacrifice Tinder Wall to cast Desperate Ritual, then try to cast Seething Song. I Daze while holding the Thwart for backup and he scoops them up after I get my beat on with either Goyf or Rhox War Monk for a turn or so.
1-0

Round2: Affinity
Game1: He mulligans down to 5 and gets a one lander which allows him to play out his hand by turn 3 including double Ornithopter, double Arcbound Worker, double Frogmite, and double Myr Enforcer all off of a Vault of Whispers. I manage to Daze his Myr Enforcer and have double Swords to Plowshares as well as Goyf and Rhox War Monk to stop his efforts. He never draws the second land, and I slowly take out his team while making mine more formidable, ending the game with Counterbalance Top in play.
Game2: Again he mulligans to either 5 or 6, and I make him pay for it. He gets a pretty slow opener, and I land turn 2 Wall of Roots into turn 3 Progenitus to just win the game in short order. By slow opener I mean he had maybe an Arcbound Worker and an Ornithopter in play as well as casting a countered Spell Snare on my Wall of Roots.
2-0

Round3: ANT
Game1: I start on Sensei's Top into Counterbalance two turns later, and he Mystical Tutors for Ad Nauseum. Game goes on with him resolving pretty much nothing through Counterbalance especially since his whole deck is either 0, 1, or 2 which just killed him.
Game2: I open on lands and a few Brainstorms and he plays a bunch of Rituals and artifacts into Ad Nauseum with no mana in his pool and just an uncracked Lotus Petal and a possible land drop left. His flip was pretty awful off of Ad Nauseum hitting Krosan Grip, 3 Dark Confidants, 2 Cabal Rituals, and other irrelevant stuff to bring him from 18 to 2. He responds to this situation by playing and cracking a fetch, casting both Cabal Rituals and dropping all three Dark Confidants, on 1 might I add. I am holding Thwart and Daze but could not cast them as I had 2 lands at the moment and he cast Orim's Chant as well. I played nothing so I'd have access to 2 counters on his turn if he somehow survived his upkeep. Of course he flips 2 fetches and a Chrome Mox to keep living the dream and then Ponders into Brainstorm to fix his next 2 draws. I again keep my lands untapped and he flips 2 lands and then a Ponder to give me the game and the match.
3-0

Round4: Reanimator Ryan
Game1: I play turn 1 Sensei's Top and he goes EOT Entomb Iona. Next turn he plays Dark Ritual into Animate Dead which I Force and he Forces back letting it resolve so he could get Iona naming white to turn off my Swords and unfortunately my War Monks which I was holding 2 of. I build up and play and resolve Natural Order for Progenitus, but it is a turn too late, and I succumb to Iona beats.
Game2: I brainstorm three times this game with 2 fetches and end up drawing 1 actual spell and 8 lands total. He also happens to hit me with Duresses at the least opportune moments first taking my Counterbalance, and then later casting Duress when I had 2 Natural Orders, a Force of Will, and a Swords in hand with plenty of mana and a Dryad Arbor in play. He goes Entomb into Exhume on Iona naming green after taking Swords, and I lose because I drew 2 Wall of Roots in a row, and he played Tombstalker the turn after Iona.
3-1
A little fun fact, at the Philly Open IV (Type1) I started off 4-0 then went 0-3 to miss Top8 as I could have won in throughout any of my last 3 rounds but failed to. I was fulfilling the prophecy again, and was prepared for the beating that karma was going to dish me out.

Round5: 4c Landstill Josh
Game1: I know coming into the match that it is an awful matchup, and what happens doesn't change this. I get an early Counterbalance and Top but am cold to Crucible Waste as well as him transmuting Tolaria West for Academy Ruins and then dropping Nevinyrall's Disk and killing my lands as well as my permanents and ending my hopes.
Game2: I keep a kind of shady 1 lander with a Strand, Brainstorm, Top, Counterbalance, Daze, and a couple other keepers. I Brainstorm and obviously see no lands, and then start using Top and fail to find a land for like 3 turns as well. Meanwhile he is beating me down with Mishra's Factory and keeping his card count up. I find a land at one point in time but am totally overwhelmed by his threats after I miraculously resolve Counterbalance as everything he played cost 3 or more.
3-2
At this point I'm pretty sure I can't make it but stay in because I have a slim shot as always of making Top8. I look at the standings and see I'm in 11th with the highest breakers of the X-2s with 2 X-1-1s and the rest of the X-1s or better ahead of me. I realize my outside shot might possibly be a reality especially when...

Round6: The Mirror match (HungryLIKEALION)
Game1: We both open on Tops, with little of significance coming about from either side except for him amassing 3 Rhox War Monks while I get Counterbalance out to compliment my Top (I think, but the games are all blurred together at this point). I eventually cast and resolve Natural Order for Progenitus and win because Natural Order simply wins the mirror matchup. I bring in Thwarts, artifact removal and my secret tech singleton Cryptic Command.
Game2: We go back and forth, with him having multiple Goyfs and me holding Natural Order and having a meager board position on a meager lifetotal but 4-5 cards in hand compared to his 1-2. The fundamental turn comes around where I decide to punt this game because I'm up a game and I'm tired. I have a Top, Rhox War Monk and a Goyf to his double Goyf and Counterbalance Top. Impulsively I decide to Krosan Grip his Top which was the right play, and then for some reason attack with my Rhox War Monk while I'm holding Thwart, Natural Order, a Daze I think and have a Force, Brainstorm, and Daze on top. He blocks as he should and I realize how much of a donkey I am. Final turn comes rolling around where I am facing down lethal with no real counters and lose because I no longer have a Rhox War Monk or counterspells since I need to fight over a Sower which would be irrelevant because I could have Progenitus at this point.
Game3: There is like 12 minutes in the round so we both play extra fast. I am facing down beats but somehow resolve Progenitus and win because that's what he does. I win the matchup because I drew more Natural Orders, and we are the last match to finish. Being the nice guy I am, I tell him to check the standings et al to see if I will make Top8 since all the other matches are finished so I can scoop him in if I won't make it. Unfortunately for us, the judge was sitting next to us and makes me report it 2-1 in my favor.
After a couple minutes the final standings go up and somehow I made it as the 8th seed.
Top8: Mono White Stax Nick Coss
Game1: He has a pretty bad hand with Mox Diamond, Savannah, City of Traitors and a Wasteland for mana as well as some other irrelevant land later on. He gets 2 Ghostly Prison off of City of Traitors and then trades that for Wasteland. I resolve Counterbalance Top and then drop a Goyf and proceed to beat for the win over a bunch of turns as he plays nothing.
Game2: I get Goyfs and have CounterTop again because I'm that lucky. I get 2 blind flips of 2 to counter 2 Chalice of the Voids on 1 allowing me to eventually Swords to Plowshares his Baneslayer and go on to win the game.

Top4: UWG? Countertop w/ Nimble Mongoose
Game1: Mull to 5 and I have Counterbalance and top to counter just about everything he casts and then Tarmogoyf to seal the deal while he loses as he never has much beyond his initial since he had to mulligan to 5.
Game2: Mull to 6 from him, but we both open on Counterbalance Top, except I have a Daze to stop his. We go back and forth playing stuff with me losing my Balance at two separate points to Krosan Grips. However, I am the ultimate winner as we go back and forth trading punches. At the very end of the game we both have Tops in play, him with a Goyf and me with a 0/2 Wall of Roots and a Top. I go to Swords his Goyf, and he Submerges it in response. I capitalize on him having 0 cards in hand by untapping and casting Natural Order for Progenitus. He scoops it up as he has no way to answer or race it.

Finals: GB Rock
We figure out a split that involves both of us getting 2 Volcanic Islands and the winner of 1 game getting the Underground Sea over the Tundra. We play a short one with me opening on Triple Tarmogoyf, Swords to Plowshares, Force of Will, and 2 Fetches. He thoughtseizes me taking force turn 1 and then plays Sakura Tribe Elder with Unearth and chump blocks again. Later on he Damnations away both of my Goyfs and plays a Garruk. A turn or so after he plays a Death Cloud for all of my lands and I just lose as I don't have a Force of Will.

Props:
Enigma for the fantastic list
Natural Order for being outrageous
Counterbalance for helping being awesome when used blindly
Nick Coss for explaining me my role as a drink supplier
Catch Phrase for being an awesome game
AU Blue Bell for being a great store which is conveniently located near my house.
WoW World's Mat for allowing me to harness its power
Slops:
Not actually owning this awesome deck
Losing the last game of Catch Phrase before going home
Pennsylvania for having an 11o clock curfew for drivers under the age of 18

[hungryLIKEALION]

Congrats dude, I'm glad to hear you split the finals, so at least my loss was not in vain.

BTW, wish I had your pairings, I had to slog through counterbalance mirrors all day -_- ;p

Anyway, I hope to see you at future events. :)

[aTn]

Useless remark:

If too many people start playing this deck (and Merfolk), I think RB-Goblins will become viable again. I tested the MU against Enigma yesterday (I piloted S.U.-N.O., he played RB-Goblins) and I have to say it was hard to win. It's not difficult for them to deny Firespout/N.O. with Port + Wasteland; they play (possibly recurring) 'edicts' in case the six (EDIT: five) headed hydra hits the board, etc.

[Atog]

Useless remark:

If too many people start playing this deck (and Merfolk), I think RB-Goblins will become viable again. I tested the MU against Enigma yesterday (I piloted S.U.-N.O., he played RB-Goblins) and I have to say it was hard to win. It's not difficult for them to deny Firespout/N.O. with Port + Wasteland; they play (possibly recurring) 'edicts' in case the six (EDIT: five) headed hydra hits the board, etc.

Did you play exact sideboard what enigma plays? I know that blasts from side won't do much against ports and wastelands but that fix that "recurring edict's" problems easily. If goblin player draws couple rishadan ports and couple wastelands then we could be in problems. But that wall of roots should help little to resolve natural order..

[aTn]

Did you play exact sideboard what enigma plays? I know that blasts from side won't do much against ports and wastelands but that fix that "recurring edict's" problems easily. If goblin player draws couple rishadan ports and couple wastelands then we could be in problems. But that wall of roots should help little to resolve natural order..

Agreed. Yes I had exactly the list card for card; I played post-board (and if I recall correctly, he didn't even't board a thing). The hardest part in my experience was the mana-denial and the fact that Goblins is WAY more aggressive than Merfolk; even if I could resolve a NO eventually, I'd be facing a large amount of gobs which wouldn't garantee me a win. I'm not saying this MU is unwinnable, but I fear it more than Merfolk.

[Atog]

Agreed. Yes I had exactly the list card for card; I played post-board (and if I recall correctly, he didn't even't board a thing). The hardest part in my experience was the mana-denial and the fact that Goblins is WAY more aggressive than Merfolk; even if I could resolve a NO eventually, I'd be facing a large amount of gobs which wouldn't garantee me a win. I'm not saying this MU is unwinnable, but I fear it more than Merfolk.

Yea. I think we need some blue elemental blasts / hydroblasts goblins for goblins mainly. My meta has some burn / slight players so they are needed here. Some Path to exiles could try to fit in sideboard for merfolks mainly and eva green type of decks = cheap removal.

[Kuma]

In my experience, blue blasts aren't enough against Goblins. Goblins will bury you in card advantage and fast damage even if you can counter/kill one or two of their guys. When I ran five, five blue blasts in my Pro-Bant sideboard, I won maybe one round in three against Goblins. Now, I run two Propagandas and two Ghostly Prisons in my Pro-Bant sideboard and they buy you all kinds of time to find Natural Order and win. Since making the change, I've won at least two out of three rounds against Goblins.

Congrats to Enigma, and all the people performing well with his list. Given my own experience with the Pro-Bant archetype, there are some things I want to address.

--- Why not four Rhox War Monk? The six-point life total swing is amazing against aggro, he sacrifices to Natural Order, pitches to Force of Will, and is generally awesome in every matchup except board control.

--- Wall or Roots seems solid against Goblins, Merfolk, and Zoo, but Noble Hierarch seems like it would be better against most decks running Tarmogoyf and mana denial strategies like loam and stax. It also makes Rhox War Monks much easier to cast. It does have bad synergy with Firespout, but I think Firespout is the inferior of the two cards. Firespout wasn't great against Goblins on account of their massive card advantage and speed. It was okay against Zoo, but it was rarely more than a two for one. It was probably best against Merfolk, but that deck is loaded with countermagic and lords, which can hurt the card's effectiveness.

The other problem with Firespout is it requires you to be greedy with your manabase. Between needing :g::g: for Natural Order, :u::w::g: for Rhox War Monk, and :r: for Firespout, you're opening yourself up to Wasteland from Goblins, Price of Progress from Zoo, and Wasteland/Back to Basics/Stifle from Merfolk. This, in addition to the myriad of other decks running mana denial, makes me think that Firespout is the wrong call for an unknown or general metagame.

Even with Wall of Roots/Firespout, apparently the deck still has problems with Zoo. Perhaps a different combination of cards would be better. I run 19 land, 4 Noble Hierarch, +1 Rhox War Monk, +1 Daze, 1 Trygon Predator over your 20 land, 3 Wall of Roots, 3 Firespout.

Thwart is an interesting call, but if you don't have a serious board presence when you pay the alternate cost, you're in trouble.

[wmagzoo7]

I may give Propaganda/ Ghostly Prison a try, but I can't really comment on Zoo/ Red decks because I never played against any of them in the tournament I played. Playing with Cryptic Command over Llawan also seemed like it would improve the matchup against Zoo/ Goblins more. Wasteland was a huge problem for me with Landstill and White Stax which I could only deal with by initially fetching up my Island and Forest making me think that a third basic could be helpful. Noble Hierarch might fit in the strategy and make Goyf better but Wall of Roots allows for more abuse such as getting mana on your and your opponents turns as well as being able to effectively block. Thwart was really good for me and helps out a lot when you need something like Natural Order to resolve so that you won't lose the counter war and will subsequently win. The mirror match definitely comes down to getting and protecting your Natural Order so that you can just win the game.

[psu42]

I run the same deck, Enigma modified my list my running Wall of Roots over Wall of Blossoms, but I don't find goblins to problematic.

You need to save fetches to avoid Wasteland and Ports. The new build with Roots should be even more immune.

My meta is infested with Zoo, not Goblins really, but my side runs 4 blasts, as I feel they are definitely essential to beating these 2 decks.

This is the sideboard I have ran at the last 2 events more or less.

2x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Hydroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Path to Exile
2x Krosan Grip
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Ravenous Trap

It is designed to beat graveyard decks (43 lands, Dredge and Aggro Loam), Zoo, Goblins, Merfolk (I think this is the hardest matchup and needs probably 2 or 3 more dedicated hate slots), and Bant decks.

[gamegeek2]

I'm used to playing Supreme Blue variants and Canadian Threshold, but I feel like trying something new. Here's my list of ProBant:

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Progenitus

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Natural Order

--- Sideboard ---
4 Open Slots
4 Path to Exile
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ravenous Trap

I like having the 3 basics for mana stability, but I don't like Dryad Arbor - I've got 14 green creatures to sacrifice, and 8 ways to find them. Qasali Pridemage is excellent, it does so much from pushing Zoo through to being a major winner in the mirror.

[aTn]

I run the same deck, Enigma modified my list my running Wall of Roots over Wall of Blossoms, but I don't find goblins to problematic.

You need to save fetches to avoid Wasteland and Ports. The new build with Roots should be even more immune.

My 2 cents:

Mmm...

Not to be cocky, but your advice seems like wishful thinking, i.e. IMHO there's a very low probability things will go as you planned with the common NO Supreme U list vs RB-Goblins.

Note: I'm not talking about Mono-R Goblins and RG-Goblins; I'm talking about RB-Goblins.

Again, IMHO, this is due to the fact that (RB) Goblins puts a lot of pressure; it forces you to crack a fetch when you don't want it, etc. For example, the fact that Enigma's list runs no Plains often means that you'll need to fetch (or play Tundra) to StoP Lackey (or another threat you need to deal with right now). Thus opening yourself to Wasteland (or getting cut from W via Port). RWM is therefore a pain to play in that MU (not impossible, but not something I bank on). The fact that they play (possibly recurring) 'Edicts' means that Progenitus will probably arrive in the late game; where you'll be facing a horde of Goblins with your 10/10 and a low life total. I'm not saying it's unwinnable, but it's not favorable IMO. That being said, maybe minor maindeck and SB changes might help greatly. In particular, the lists playing Noble Hierarch might have a better MU.

[Frank The Tank]

What was the word of running the new Jace as a two of? Not very good or personal preference?

[Enigma]

What was the word of running the new Jace as a two of? Not very good or personal preference?

More controling versions of Counterblance decks has been playing some cards at 4cc for a while. Mystic Enforcer, Sower of Temptation, Elspeth and Natural Order comes to my mind as the one I did in the last year or so. All those cards had great impact in the game, and we can now say that Natural Order is the most succesful one. Trying to replace it would mean you have a clear goal in mind while doing so. Because trying to fit a 4th and a 5th 4cc cards in this deck will probably never happens, it means we would replace NO by Jace. In decks already not running NO, then we could do, but why would we?

Let's have a check to our worst MU's:


Recent Performance Stats:

6-0 versus Canadian Threshold
4-0 versus Burn
3-0 versus Aggro Loam
5-1 versus Belcher
6-2 versus Ad Nauseam
3-3 versus Zoo
2-2 versus 38 Land
2-2 versus Dream Halls Combo
3-6 versus Goblins
1-3 versus Enchantress
2-7 versus Merfolk


Thanks for Stephen for these stats from SCG tournaments.

Merfolks, Goblins are bad MU's. For the CB TOP decks running Progenitus, Goblins is even worst than for the rest of us (in regards of those stats). So It could be right to try finding a different way of beating aggro, but usually, we are not looking at 4cc cards to do so. The only card I see that could fulfill this role is Wrath of God. But that choice would ignore one of the reason why we are losing to those decks:

- Our incapacity to cast our spells through Land Destruction.
Both decks are running Wasteland, some are running Port, some Stifle. Combined that with fast and furious horde of fishes/goblins, and their ability to bypass Counterbalance, and here we have our explication of our failure.

So trying to run a card with (w)(w) doesn't seem a better idea than continue running Progenitus (If Merfolk/Goblins is our main concern).

Why would we consider Jace TMS in this slot?

I don't really see him as a good aggro hoser. Yes it can bounces some creatures (not always a good idea if we look at Goblin Ringleader, Matron and Silvergill), but it reduces its thoughness. It still cost 4, even though there isn't any color requirement (basicly a cc of (4) colorless for us), it might enter a field already full of unblockable fishes. Will Brainstorm save us from a tenuous situation? Boomerang? I highly doubt it...

In the case you are looking at him to its potential of creating Card Advantage, yes, we could give him a try as their is a good synergy with fetch, Top and CB. But the main reason I will never try to fit him here is the fact that the metagame is way too fast to be able to take advantage of any CA. Countering or dominating board presence is what I'm looking for to fulfill these MD slots. Our only way to make CA is to land CB, protect it and be able to take advantage of it. Fastness and "Vialness" of those decks makes it nearly impossible until I reset the board. That's why we have been a lot to run Firespout, which is probably the best answer we have available for now.

P-M

[Cenarius]

"That's why we have been a lot to run Firespout, which is probably the best answer we have available for now."

I disagree. Have you ever considered going Umezawa's jitte (in the sideboard)? (thx steven (Elf_Ascetic) for making me aware of the awesomeness)

I think each BANT creature base is looking like this, right now:

4 Noble hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
3-4 Qasali Pridemage
(1 Dryad Arbor and 1 Progenitus or 3 Elspeth)

Agree?

A list looking like this has enough creatures for Umezawa's Jitte. Each creature (even Noble Hierarch, a 1/1 soldier token or dryad arbor) because a real threath for your opponent. I think we all know that getting an active Umezawa's Jitte makes you relax and enjoy the show.

There is another pro about playing Umezawa's jitte. You actually said it yourself when you were declining Wrath of God as an answer to Agro:

"But that choice would ignore one of the reason why we are losing to those decks:

Our incapacity to cast our spells through Land Destruction.
Both decks are running Wasteland, some are running Port, some Stifle. Combined that with fast and furious horde of fishes/goblins, and their ability to bypass Counterbalance, and here we have our explication of our failure."

Resolving an 3c (off-colour) card against Merfolk is extremely hard (cursecatcher, daze, stifle + wasteland). The same goes for Goblins playing 4 wasteland/4 rishidan port. Why would you risk this if you can also play Umezawa's Jitte with its awesome manacost (of (2)).

To conclude.

Umezawa's jitte:
Creates a stable manabase,
Has enough creatures in BANT to make it awesome.
Is hard to counter/disrupt by your opponent

looks pretty decent to me. Doesn't it?

[andrew77]

What is the point of running bant colors and the crappy cards that go with it if it puts up such terrible results against merfolk and goblins? It doesn't even do all that great vs zoo. Anyway here is a black version I would run...

20 lands
4 wasteland
2 island
1 forest
1 swamp
3 underground sea
2 tropical island
4 misty rainforest
3 polluted delta

10 critters
4 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
2 sower of temptation

30 other spells
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 stifle
4 counterbalance
3 daze
3 sensei's divining top
2 maelstrom pulse
1 engineered explosives
3 smother
2 thoughtseize

Sideboard
2 extirpate
2 relic of progenitus
1 tormods crypt
3 pernicious deed
2 hydroblast
1 blue elemental blast
1 threads of disloyalty
1 krosan grip
2 open slots

You have much better game against merfolk than the bant lists for 2 reasons. First off you have more removal so it is much easier to get rid of their islandwalkers. You also have wastelands to killl their mutavaults. Secondly you have dark confidant and if he lands they can't really keep up with you. You also get deed out of the board which completely destroys them. I'm 4-0-1 against merfolk at competitive events. The only games I lost were due to me getting very unlucky( mana screw/flood) or the them drawing really aggressive hands with lots of lords.

Besides the improved merfolk matchup you pretty much destroy all other countertop decks. They play things like noble hierarch and rhox war monk which are garbage and you play confidant. If they resolve counterbalance/top you can even blow it up with pulse/ee.

Zoo seems like a rough matchup, but it isn't that bad. Wasteland/stifle can be huge against them and so can EE. It used to be a lone putrefy, but putrefy was just awful. For the most part if you are on the play I would say you are favored, while if you are on the draw it is in their favor. Post board though you bring in deeds and blasts which should make the matchup much easier. I would say this is a 50-50 matchup if the zoo list is good and the pilot is competant. That isn't usually the case though and if they keep a mediocre hand or board wrong you should have a huge edge.

Anyway, the only card that really bothers me in testing is thoughtseize. It is very good in some matchups, but I feel that most of the time it is subpar. Against all aggressive decks as well as a plethora of other decks it is just so weak. Its also a terrible topdeck lategame. This makes me feel like there must be something better in that slot, but I have yet to decide on anything.

[_erbs_]

Bant has lots of ways to deal with merfs and gobs.

1. Rhox War Monk
2. Jitte
3. Removals (wrath of god, pte, etc.)
4. Nat Order Combo

Rhox + Jitte for me has performed well against aggro decks.

[andrew77]

Bant has lots of ways to deal with merfs and gobs.

1. Rhox War Monk
2. Jitte
3. Removals (wrath of god, pte, etc.)
4. Nat Order Combo

Rhox + Jitte for me has performed well against aggro decks.

Well, apparently those aren't enough... The numbers speak for themselves...
3-6 versus Goblins
2-7 versus Merfolk

[_erbs_]

@andrew77
Those matchups are really hard but i have decent win-loss record against them. Im using ProgenThresh and runs 4 rhox main.
My teammate who uses bant aswell has a very good win-loss record vs merfs decks. Our meta is filled with merfs and gobs around 40% of our meta are gobs and merfs.

The list http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30361

[BackDr0p]

I would have to disagree because, you depend on a 3cmc, tri-colored beater with which is easily prevented from hitting play (Rishadan Port, Wasteland) and dealt with (Warren Weirdings, Pyro/REB, Stingscourger, Pyrokenesis, Perish, Goblin Piledriver) in the goblins matchup.

When it comes to Merfolk, gaining 3 life a swing is sometimes not enough to stabilize, considering that they can bypass your blockers altogether.

Even with NO, sweepers like Firespout and Wrath of God, the MU against aggro (Merfolk and Goblins) tends to still be in their favor.

[psu42]

I would love to play Dark Confidant, which gives me access to Deed as well. But there is just too much Zoo in my meta to warrant that. He dies to every card in their deck and the card advantage is a liability in that matchup.

At a larger event outside of the area I would have no problem running black. But it also requires testing which I don't really have.

[wmagzoo7]

Andrew, I'm not gonna really get into the whole UBG CounterTop vs. Supreme Blue thing, but first and foremost Smemmen was not testing a Natural Order or even Supreme Blue list, and second of all he played only 9 games against each of those decks. Dark Confidant is good and so is removal, but Natural Order adds something that those cards can't offer. For me personally, I'd like to have the possibility of getting a Progenitals into play rather than having other cards that can help out the matchup. In the 60 card mirror that I played with Supreme Blue w/ NO I only won because of Natural Order. Both of us were evenly matched, but I drew my Natural Order and he didn't so I won. Grinding out the game can be effective, but with Natural Order you just win the game. Dark Confidant can give you card advantage and bring you back into games you shouldn't be, but how does that compare to just winning most of the time as your opponent has no answer to a 10/10 Protection from everything.

As far as Goblins and Merfolk go, I'm personally not worried about Goblins that much as it is underrepresented in my area, and I may put Propaganda/ Ghostly Prison into my board to deal with Merfolk if the deck becomes more popular. Rhox War Monk gums up the board plain and simple while also giving you something you could sacrifice to Natural Order or go on the offensive with. Sometimes you can't cast your guys, but if you resolve one you ought to be able to start creating either favorable blocks or reduce the number of creatures attacking you over a long period of time.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Andrew, I'm not gonna really get into the whole UBG CounterTop vs. Supreme Blue thing, but first and foremost Smemmen was not testing a Natural Order or even Supreme Blue list, and second of all he played only 9 games against each of those decks. Dark Confidant is good and so is removal, but Natural Order adds something that those cards can't offer. For me personally, I'd like to have the possibility of getting a Progenitals into play rather than having other cards that can help out the matchup. In the 60 card mirror that I played with Supreme Blue w/ NO I only won because of Natural Order. Both of us were evenly matched, but I drew my Natural Order and he didn't so I won. Grinding out the game can be effective, but with Natural Order you just win the game.

Are you referring to our game? Cuz we were actually I think a 58 card mirror, but yeah, still pretty much means the same. ;p

Also, at that tournament I defeated a player piloting that UBG list... because I resolved progenitus. I'm not sure if I'll play a CB Top deck or not at the next tournament I attend, but if I do I'm definitely playing progenitus...

[andrew77]

I just don't like natural/order progenitus as a combo. I like it even less because you have to run noble hierarch to support it. I was also extremely underwhelmed by rhox war monk in testing. He is a bitch to cast, forces you to cut wasteland/stifle package and isn't even all that effective against a lot of decks. The only reason to run white imo would be stp. I prefer to run a black or red splash as white just doesn't cut it. There isn't enough raw power in the bant decks.

[hungryLIKEALION]

There isn't enough raw power in a 10/10 pro everything?

Also, a lot of us run Wall of Roots instead of Noble Hierarch, which is very good.

And personally, I hate stifle/wasteland in a CB Top deck. CB Top asks for the game to go long so you can abuse the advantage they provide, and Stifle/Waste want the game to stay short so you can capitilize on the instability you create. You end up having shitty topdecks that don't affect the board, while your opponent puts a 10/10 pro everything into play... yeah, seems really good...

[andrew77]

There isn't enough raw power in a 10/10 pro everything?

Also, a lot of us run Wall of Roots instead of Noble Hierarch, which is very good.

I didn't realize that was your whole game plan. What happens if NO gets countered or discarded? You lose because you play crap cards like wall of roots?



And personally, I hate stifle/wasteland in a CB Top deck. CB Top asks for the game to go long so you can abuse the advantage they provide, and Stifle/Waste want the game to stay short so you can capitilize on the instability you create. You end up having shitty topdecks that don't affect the board, while your opponent puts a 10/10 pro everything into play... yeah, seems really good...
So since you are a fan of long games you obviously get your progenitus into play t3 and just let it sit there as a blocker right? I mean counterbalance/top asks for the game to be long and a 10/10 doesn't so wtf. I don't get it.

As I said before stifle/wasteland is essential if you want to beat zoo. It has uses against most other decks as well and can randomly win games.

[Aggro_zombies]

The 10/10 is a combo finish. Think of it as being more like a burn spell in terms of reach.

EDIT: The exclusive goal of the deck is not necessarily to go for a fast NO, although that's an option in some situations. The point is that the game ends quickly after Progenitus hits play, not in general. It's probably a much better idea to set up Counterbalance and then go for Natural Order with sufficient Top mana up against decks that can profitably interact with you through counters or burn.

Another way to look at it: think of it as being the difference between Ichorid producing seven 3/3 hasty Zombies on turn one or slow rolling you with a couple Grave-Trolls and Ichorids. The same deck can adopt different play speeds depending on whether the situation merits it.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I didn't realize that was your whole game plan. What happens if NO gets countered or discarded? You lose because you play crap cards like wall of roots?Alright, if you want to play the strawman game, "WHAT'S YOUR PLAN IF BOB DIES!? LOSE BECAUSE YOU PLAY CRAP CARDS LIKE STIFLE!? OMG I'M SO FUNNY ECKS DEE ECKS DEE ECKS DEE!!!" ... Yeah that seems like I made a real, intelligent point there! I'm really proud of myself. :) I should argue like this more often! Oh, wait, no I shouldn't, because arguing like that makes me sound like a jackass.



So since you are a fan of long games you obviously get your progenitus into play t3 and just let it sit there as a blocker right? I mean counterbalance/top asks for the game to be long and a 10/10 doesn't so wtf. I don't get it. You're obviously being a dick for the sake of being a dick, and I don't feel like explaining what's incredibly obvious to anyone with a brain, but if I have to I'll give it a short explanation. A 10/10 is good at every point in the game. You play it on t3 or t10, it wins you the game. Stifle is good on turn 1, okay on turn 2, and pretty lackluster turns 3-4 onward. Wasteland is a little better since it can hit utility lands, but does loses most of its real power once your opponent's mana base has stabilized.


As I said before stifle/wasteland is essential if you want to beat zoo.... Except for the part where it isn't? I'm over 20-5 in matches against my brother, me playing SU him playing Zoo, and he's no slouch. Not as good as me, but still no slouch. Progenitus is actually the best thing you can play against Zoo, since they can't disrupt it and he effectively wins the game immediately upon showing up, barring a ridiculous string of burn spells. In addition, as a Zoo player, I will say that the only CB Top decks I'm actually concerned about are those with NO.


It has uses against most other decks as well and can randomly win games. Yeah, this is true. But to posit that NO doesn't do this with at least the same frequency (if not even more often), is... well... silly. NO reminds me of my days playing Tron in Extended. You can be completely on the ropes, with no chance of winning left, when all of a sudden you topdeck mindslaver and have 11U+ruins up and realize you win. Now, NO isn't QUITE as fool proof, but the price is a lot lower and the margin by which you can still lose is still not that large. I've only ever lost once with progenitus in play, and that was against imperial painter where he topdecked a grindstone with a painter already in play on the last possible turn, with a red blast backup for my FoW. I'm not terribly concerned about that situation happening terribly often.

It's fine if you prefer your version. I don't really care what you play. But what you said is that you don't think Bant has raw power, and I responded by pointing out the fact that a 10/10 pro everything is, uhm, powerful.

Aggro Zombies is correct in his analysis.

[aTn]

As I said before stifle/wasteland is essential if you want to beat zoo. It has uses against most other decks as well and can randomly win games.

Are you suggesting playing Stifle/Wasteland (i.e. tempo) in cunjunction with Swords to Plowshares (which basically kills your tempo by giving life to your opponent)? Ok, I guess you meant the other removal for W which gives your opponent a (basic) land... thus making Wasteland and... wait a minute... what is tempo again ? I'm confused... ah well, I must be stupid...

[aTn]

I didn't realize that was your whole game plan. What happens if NO gets countered or discarded? You lose because you play crap cards like wall of roots?

Clearly you have tested the deck and you know what you are talking about. Clearly you are aware of the mutliple Top8s the deck generated... these tournaments must have consisted of inbred post nuclear one toothed morons who need a special device to prevent them from drooling on their cards and craping in their pants at the same time while shuffling their decks...


So since you are a fan of long games you obviously get your progenitus into play t3 and just let it sit there as a blocker right? I mean counterbalance/top asks for the game to be long and a 10/10 doesn't so wtf. I don't get it.

You play your deck the exact same way whatever the match-up ? Is that what your are suggesting ? So basically, your argument goes like this: assuming the deck's pilot is an idiot and always goes for turn 3 NO, whatever the deck he's playing against, then this deck is crap. The underlined part the above quote makes me seriously question if you know what you are talking about. Maybe it's a case of "more playing, less posting" - I heard doctors recommend playing and a moderate amount of thinking in that case.

P.S.: Don't bother replying, you have joined my ignore list. Have a nice day.

[andrew77]

Are you suggesting playing Stifle/Wasteland (i.e. tempo) in cunjunction with Swords to Plowshares (which basically kills your tempo by giving life to your opponent)? Ok, I guess you meant the other removal for W which gives your opponent a (basic) land... thus making Wasteland and... wait a minute... what is tempo again ? I'm confused... ah well, I must be stupid...

I guess tempo is a very hard concept for some people. Countertop decks are not tempo decks. That being said playing tempo cards like stifle is still quite helpful because of the massive tempo they can generate in the early turns. It doesn't matter if you aren't using this advantage to kill your opponent because dropping counterbalance/top or confidant is just as devastating. Even decks like landstill have run stifle in the past. Apparently you are just completely ignorant and have no idea what you are talking about. Although, you are from Montreal so idk what I expected.

I also find it funny when you supreme blue players criticize stifle as being narrow when you play garbage cards like wall of roots.



... Except for the part where it isn't? I'm over 20-5 in matches against my brother, me playing SU him playing Zoo, and he's no slouch. Not as good as me, but still no slouch. Progenitus is actually the best thing you can play against Zoo, since they can't disrupt it and he effectively wins the game immediately upon showing up, barring a ridiculous string of burn spells. In addition, as a Zoo player, I will say that the only CB Top decks I'm actually concerned about are those with NO.


I would hope you have a good zoo matchup as you run so many cards for that matchup. I mean wall of roots, firespout, war monk. All are great against zoo, but mediocre to terrible against other decks. I would go as far as to say that your deck is too random. You play too many cards that are only good against some matchups for it to do well at a long event. Eventually you will draw the wrong answers and lose. Not only do you have to worry about drawing the wrong threats, but you are very susceptible to mana screw as well. Stifle/wasteland can absolutely destroy any hopes you have of casting most of your spells.

[Draener]

The mana base is actually quite resillient combined with top, brainstorm and wall of roots. Wall of roots also serves to power out a daze proof firespout, or though mana disruption. It does this all the while blanking a nactal, kird ape, or some random goblin. While wall of roots is far from the best card ever, the metagame certainly warrents it as a strong choice.

[Jim Higginbottom]

Progenitus is actually the best thing you can play against Zoo, since they can't disrupt it and he effectively wins the game immediately upon showing up, barring a ridiculous string of burn spells. In addition, as a Zoo player, I will say that the only CB Top decks I'm actually concerned about are those with NO.


Elspeth and Rhox war monk imho are simply better against zoo. Either alone or together I haven't lost a game against zoo when they've been cast.

[Jim Higginbottom]

And when I played NO Progenitus I did lose some games to zoo after resolving natural order.

[mchainmail]

And when I played NO Progenitus I did lose some games to zoo after resolving natural order.


Tell me about it... Goblins almost swarmed past a resolved Progenitus game 3. It's sad when a 10/10 isn't good enough.

[Shimi]

Ok , I was playing Supreme Blue Original list since it was created , and the great problem about the deck is it manabase.I only lost to my own erros or manadenial and bad luck(which just happens to all decks) againts Merfolks , Goblins and Zoo.So the way to improve this MUs is going to get a more stable manabase which Wall of Roots seems very good at in NO CT lists and also can be sac to NO for Progenitus.Stifle also does it but is much more versatile , it can stops enemy wastes , disrupt opponents fetch( but here you must know they will be hurt by this) and which i consider the most important part IT STOPS DEED AND EE ( which are a great problem for low 3cc CB lists like the UGB).So you are trying to solve 2 great problems with Stifle but then you put 4 wastes so it goes in the wrong direction( it can wins games , but seems bad cause you want a stable manabase which can produce UUBG to cast you spells).
Also the UGB list have low 3cc which i think makes SupremeBlue better against a lot of MUs(Ench , BGW Rock, Loam...) and in the Mirror( UGB x SupremeBlue) , about NO it is just the way to win some hard MUs when you cast dude + NO and win, of course it can be dead some times but also stifle or wasteland.

So I think that the NO CB list still have some manabases issues that would be great if we can fix it.And I think UGB lists could be a good metachoice but andrew lists seems a bit wired (thoughtseize , wastes ,sower), low 3cc and also has no 1cc removal or great answer for Aggros.

PS: Last week I just changed to PROBant cause It can easily win aggros games and NO can finish alot of Aggro-Controls Games.

[aTn]

Ok , I was playing Supreme Blue Original list since it was created , and the great problem about the deck is it manabase.

I totally agree with this. I am currently testing a strictly UGW list. When I have enough testing/tournament results, I'll post it here.

Ok Andrew, I'll take you out of my ignore list and try to discuss in a civil manner with you.

I apologize in advance for the poor quality of my English, it's not my native tongue.


Countertop decks are not tempo decks.

Agreed.


That being said playing tempo cards like stifle is still quite helpful because of the massive tempo they can generate in the early turns. It doesn't matter if you aren't using this advantage to kill your opponent because dropping counterbalance/top or confidant is just as devastating.

Do I understand correctly if I state the following: You are suggesting to play Stifle in a UGW CB-Top deck ?

If I understood correctly, then I ask the following question:

How will you capitalize on your tempo gain (i.e. to what end would you want it) ?

I understand Canadian Threshold playing Stifle since the whole deck is build upon capitalizing on such gains, I doubt CB-Top decks aim at leaving (U) open for Stifle on turn 1. I'd rather try landing a Top, but maybe that's just me and I'm an idiot (no sarcasm here).


Even decks like landstill have run stifle in the past.

Yes, I am aware of that.

Questions: 1. Why did such decks run Stifle in the past ? Was it to answer a specific threat or was it for mana-denial ? Why would that choice be relevant for CB-Top decks which like to go: Turn 1 - Top ?


I also find it funny when you supreme blue players criticize stifle as being narrow when you play garbage cards like wall of roots.

IMO, Wall of Roots serves a better purpose than Stifle in this deck. Again, leaving U open for Stifle isn't part of the game's plan IMO.


I would hope you have a good zoo matchup as you run so many cards for that matchup. I mean wall of roots, firespout, war monk.

Ok, then why did you state the following ?


Andrew said: As I said before stifle/wasteland is essential if you want to beat zoo.

Again, I am confused.


I would go as far as to say that your deck is too random. You play too many cards that are only good against some matchups for it to do well at a long event.

I suggest going to the results section of this board and checking the placings of this deck at long events in the last weeks. I assume here by "long event" you mean an event with at least 5 rounds + Top8.


Eventually you will draw the wrong answers and lose.

This can be said of any other deck, why is Supreme-U more susceptible to this ?


Stifle/wasteland can absolutely destroy any hopes you have of casting most of your spells.

Yes I agree. That is partly why some people are debating the Red splash. In my tests, Canadian Threshold has not caused me too much problems (I'd say the MU is about 50-50). What other relevant deck runs Stifle ?

=====
ASIDE
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Apparently you are just completely ignorant and have no idea what you are talking about.

Probably, I won't enter a pissing contest here.


Although, you are from Montreal so idk what I expected.

Don't lump all of Montreal on me; if you want to consider me an idiot, no problem, just don't lump the whole Montreal crew on me. Again, I won't enter a pissing contest here.

[Bardo]

Attack the idea, not the person.

Warnings will be issued if you don't get it together.

[andrew77]

Do I understand correctly if I state the following: You are suggesting to play Stifle in a UGW CB-Top deck ?

No, I run UBG countertop.



How will you capitalize on your tempo gain (i.e. to what end would you want it) ?

I understand Canadian Threshold playing Stifle since the whole deck is build upon capitalizing on such gains, I doubt CB-Top decks aim at leaving (U) open for Stifle on turn 1. I'd rather try landing a Top, but maybe that's just me and I'm an idiot (no sarcasm here).

You don't have that many turn 1 plays besides stifle since you don't run ponder so its not like you're not playing something to gamble on stifling a fetchland. You also don't need to capitalize on your tempo. Sure, quite often you will by landing confidant or counterbalance, but against zoo part of the reason they can destroy you is because they generate a lot more tempo than you do in early turns. They are playing 3/3's for 1 while you are playing SDT. If you keep them from coming out of the gates running it is much easier to stabilize and win.

That is just what stifle does against zoo most of the time. There are games though where you will just flat out win because of stifle/waste if your opponent is short on lands.


Questions: 1. Why did such decks run Stifle in the past ? Was it to answer a specific threat or was it for mana-denial ? Why would that choice be relevant for CB-Top decks which like to go: Turn 1 - Top ?

IMO, Wall of Roots serves a better purpose than Stifle in this deck. Again, leaving U open for Stifle isn't part of the game's plan IMO.

Stifle also has plenty of uses. It is much stronger than wall of roots because there are hardly any matchups where it is weak. A few important things it does are stop standstills, stop pridemage, stop opponents wastelands, stop ETW cold, etc. Wall of roots on the other hand will just sit there are prog food against a huge percent of the field.



I suggest going to the results section of this board and checking the placings of this deck at long events in the last weeks. I assume here by "long event" you mean an event with at least 5 rounds + Top8.

This can be said of any other deck, why is Supreme-U more susceptible to this ?


By long I mean like a GP. There was a time when I played dredge. I stopped playing dredge because over the course of a 10+ round event the deck will just lose to itself too often. A deck like supreme blue which runs a lot of cards that are just dead in certain matchups will have issues in long events. The 4 color manabase only adds to your consistency issues.

Also stifle/wasteland is a must for black countertop to beat zoo. You don't have firespout or even rhox war monk so without having stifle/waste to set them back games can become much harder. You straight up win games at times because of them and they are quite good anyway so they are essential. This is also the reason I run pulse and EE. Both are decent cards and I need more removal than smother, but I could be running a plethora of other removal effects. I have chosen those because they can kill opposing counterbalances as well as other tricky threats with ease and because they can randomly wreck zoo. EE is extremely versatile and is excellent against zoo. You also don't have to worry about the fact that stifle isn't great in the late game as you usually are ahead if it gets to the late game. I have actually hated topdecking stifles in canadian thresh because that deck can get into topdeck mode. This list runs confidant and counterbalance both which are card advantage machines.

[Kuma]

Well, apparently those aren't enough... The numbers speak for themselves...
3-6 versus Goblins
2-7 versus Merfolk

You do realize in that data set, CounterTop with Progenitus lists are 2-2 against Merfolk. Other CounterTop lists are 0-5.

Also, none of those CounterTop lists ran any Propagandas or Ghostly Prisons in their sideboards which, in my experience, swing the Goblin matchup from 33/67 to 67/33.


I would hope you have a good zoo matchup as you run so many cards for that matchup. I mean... war monk [is] great against zoo...

...and Goblins, Merfolk, Canadian Threshold, Burn, other random aggro...

[aTn]

Andrew, I agree that Stifle is a great card, but I don't like it in a CB-Top deck.

I'll try to keep an open mind; I'd like to see your latest decklist (if you're ok with sharing it here).


Also stifle/wasteland is a must for black countertop to beat zoo.

That is a highly maindeck and sideboard dependent statement.

I would think that post-board, the combination of CB-Top, maindeck creature removal, BEB-Hybroblats and EE would do the trick against Zoo. I may be wrong here as I haven't seen your list and I'm reasoning with my experience with a "canonical" UGB-CB-Top build.

In my experience, I'd rather run Thoughtseize than Stifle in UGB-CB-Top; especially in the current metagame where pro-active control can take out an opponent's "Tinker" from his hands before it's too late.

[andrew77]

I've never lost to merfolk with black countertop and rhox war monk isn't all that good against a team of islandwalkers. I'm not saying he is bad, but he is underwhelming for a card that requires you to screw with the manabase so much.

[andrew77]

Andrew, I agree that Stifle is a great card, but I don't like it in a CB-Top deck.

I'll try to keep an open mind; I'd like to see your latest decklist (if you're ok with sharing it here).

That is a highly maindeck and sideboard dependent statement.

I would think that post-board, the combination of CB-Top, maindeck creature removal, BEB-Hybroblats and EE would do the trick against Zoo. I may be wrong here as I haven't seen your list and I'm reasoning with my experience with a "canonical" UGB-CB-Top build.

In my experience, I'd rather run Thoughtseize than Stifle in UGB-CB-Top; especially in the current metagame where pro-active control can take out an opponent's "Tinker" from his hands before it's too late.

20 lands
4 wasteland
2 island
1 forest
1 swamp
3 underground sea
2 tropical island
4 misty rainforest
3 polluted delta

10 critters
4 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
2 sower of temptation

30 other spells
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 stifle
4 counterbalance
3 daze
3 sensei's divining top
2 maelstrom pulse
1 engineered explosives
3 smother
2 thoughtseize

Sideboard
2 extirpate
2 relic of progenitus
1 tormods crypt
3 pernicious deed
2 hydroblast
1 blue elemental blast
1 threads of disloyalty
1 krosan grip
2 open slots

G1 your zoo matchup would be something like 40-60 if you didn't run stifle/waste. Sure it might be in your favor postboard, but I prefer shoring up my matchup against such a heavily played deck. With stifle waste you are 50-50 game 1. I have also been quite happy with the package and don't intend on cutting it.

[Aggro_zombies]

Given the number of people complaining about Progenitus, and the card's general weakness to aggro, it might be a good idea to investigate alternatives. I realize that the current attitude is "leave well enough alone" and therefore anticipate this getting dismissed, but I thought I'd throw it out there. From a discussion on the InfoNinjas' team board:


What is the Thopter Foundry combo?

The Thopter Foundry combo involves sacrificing Sword of the Meek to Thopter Foundry to produce small flying tokens and life gain. The Sword then triggers and comes back, allowing you to essentially channel however much mana you wish into a creature and life-production engine.

Have both Sword of the Meek and Thopter Foundry in play.
Sacrifice Sword to Thopter Foundry. [1]
Foundry produces a 1/1 token and 1 life. Sword triggers. [2]
Sword returns to play attached to the 1/1, making it a 2/3.
Rinse and repeat as necessary.

The end result is an army of flyers and a Stream of Life with Buyback :0:.

What are the combo's vulnerabilities?

Both components of the combo are artifacts and it is dependent, at least briefly, on the graveyard. Both components cost :2: and are therefore easy to Spell Snare or Counterbalance away. Furthermore, the combo is fairly easy to interact with; [1] and [2] above denote triggers or activations where you will have to pass priority, potentially opening yourself up to an opponent's hate cards.

Hate for [1]:
- Stifle on ability.
- Krosan Grip on Foundry.
- Graveyard removal spell to get rid of Sword.

Hate for [2]:
- Stifle on trigger
- Graveyard removal spell to get rid of Sword.

Furthermore, the combo can be slow and is mana-intensive. Whereas Natural Order into Progenitus is virtually guaranteed to win in two turns, the combo often takes three or more depending on the opponent's life total, your mana, and whether you have to wait until your next untap step to begin activating Foundry.

What are the combo's advantages?
Despite speed and hate issues, the combo is very good at stabilizing. The tokens are excellent chump blockers and it is difficult to get rid of all of them since they tend to show up in great volumes. Furthermore, the life gain associated with Foundry helps get you out of the low life total "danger zone" where red decks can reasonably burn you out.

Also, on second glance, the combo is less vulnerable to hate than it may appear. Since it is in blue, you should have access to counters to protect against Stifle. With the exception of Leyline of the Void (barely played) and Extirpate (fairly bad), you can sacrifice another artifact in response to trigger Sword again and rescue it from the graveyard. Because of this, typical graveyard hate options are quite weak as answers to this combo and your primary worry should be the loss of Thopter Foundry. This can be mitigated somewhat through the judicious use of counters (try to keep Pridemage off the table) and tight play.

How does the combo stack up against existing options?

Thopter Foundry falls into the "multi-card non-storm win combo" category, which is fortunate because it doesn't require a deck to be built specifically to support it. Other combos in this category are Swans-Chain of Plasma and Natural Order-Progenitus.

In many respects, Thopter Foundry is most like Natural Order-Progenitus: both are two-card combos that don't win immediately but put enormous pressure on the opponent. NO has the advantage of being fairly non-interactive and producing a superior clock, but it's poor when you're behind or facing decks that can alpha strike you in response (Merfolk and Zoo's burn package come to mind). The combo also takes up a deceptively large number of slots in the deck, since NO requires more creatures than normal as support, and this ends up diluting the deck's blue count (for Force) as well as making lists very tight, especially the Counterbalance versions. One could make a compelling argument that many of the creature slots were predetermined, but cards like Trygon Predator which often make their way into blue-based NO builds are not tremendously impressive by themselves and would almost certainly be cut if the combo were removed. Note that this argument ignores decks like Elves that are largely unaffected by the downsides associated with the combo due to their high existing creature counts.

However, Thopter Foundry, as previously mentioned, is good at almost any point in the game, and gets significantly better as the game goes on. The life gain and blockers make the combo worth executing when behind, and it can fit in a variety of shells due to having no real requirements for its execution.

Furthermore, many people are beginning to figure out how to play around Progenitus; Merfolk can essentially ignore a successful NO thanks to Lord of Atlantis and decks like Zoo that have burn will try to beat you down to a low life total and then end the game in response to NO. Black decks can answer Progenitus with Perish and the niche decks Enchantress and Lands can prevent it from attacking with Elephant Grass and Glacial Chasm, respectively. NO is also weak against Ichorid and storm which can often go off before NO can be cast.

All of these mean that Thopter Foundry offers a relatively new and compelling avenue for players looking to build control or aggro-control decks with combo finishes.

What's the best shell for the combo?

It pains me to say this, but control decks are essentially DoA in this format: there are too many powerful cards and aggressive strategies that are simply better than a card advantage-focused build relying on high-end bombs. The format is defined by powerful decks packed with threats or ways to find and protect them, and control decks often find themselves in the awkward position of not being able to find enough answers, or the right answers, in time to avoid being slaughtered (the "Dave Price rule"). Put another way, control decks lack the compelling draws of something like Zoo, where a build with Steppe Lynx can turn literally every card drawn into a threat. Control decks with Tarmogoyf fare better, but the format has long since figured out how to answer lone Tarmogoyf beats and one can make an argument that those decks are less control and more aggro-control. Semantics aside, control is sickly at best in Legacy.

I'm therefore not really in favor of using Thopter Foundry in a control shell. On the one hand, drawing your combo instantly stabilizes you as well as producing a clock; on the other, control decks don't want to weigh themselves down with combo pieces, making you less likely to draw the combo overall if you run less than the full four of each piece. Gifts builds patterned on Tezzerator lists in Extended can circumvent this somewhat, but they tend to be slower and have a hard time both dealing with early aggression and finding the combo. Having worked with such builds quite a bit, I can say that they have appeal in the right metagame but are probably not broadly playable outside of that.

On the other hand, one can take a cue from existing NO decks and stick the combo in a Counterbalance or other blue-based aggro-control shell. The use of Counterbalance makes it harder to hate the combo if you can correctly anticipate what the opponent is going to do: leaving a Rhox War Monk on top and using counters in hand to answer bait spells prevents surprise Grips, and Extirpate can be answered in a similar manner. The benefit of all this is that combo-finish Counterbalance decks are a tried-and-true strategy; NO Counterbalance is one of the best decks in the format as of this writing, and therefore emulating it seems like a good place to start. Furthermore, the use of Top and Brainstorm makes finding the combo easier, so you can skimp on the numbers somewhat to make it about as compact as NO-Progenitus currently is. This shell also has the benefit of a beatdown plan as backup.

[hungryLIKEALION]

One thing, Andrew, you just said Stifle stops standstill in one of your posts. It does not. If you try to stifle the standstill trigger, standstill will trigger again from the stifle and still give your opponent three cards.

[Kuma]

rhox war monk isn't all that good against a team of islandwalkers.

You're presuming that the Merfolk player has a Lord of Atlantis everytime or most of the time you have a Rhox War Monk. And even if they do have a Lord of Atlantis you can't answer, you can still swing for 3-4 and gain that much life to partially or wholly negate their attack.

6-8 point life total swings are amazing against aggro decks.


I'm not saying he is bad, but he is underwhelming for a card that requires you to screw with the manabase so much.

I've almost never been unable to cast a Rhox War Monk because of his color requirements. Noble Hierarch is a huge help, and he makes Rhox War Monk swing for four leading to an eight point life total swing.

[Bardo]

Thanks for bringing this thread back to civil discouse. Much appreciated. :)

[Shimi]

I'm reading the posts but I just can't understand the discuss about Zoo x SupremeBlue , for me it is 70-30 in favor of SupremeBlue , the hard matches are merfolks and goblins.Goblins (and Zoo , DStomp) can be much easier if you run 3 Hydroblast in the sideboard.
I was thinking about running some EE in maindeck , since it can take care of goblins , zoo , and merfolks explosive begins and also is very versatile and does not suffer to mana denial plan ( you can always play it for 2) the problem is that it seems too slow sometimes , may be running 6-7 StP effects could shutdown merfolks and zoo , but the goblins card advantage ( matron , ringleader and siege-gang) are the cards that really scares me since it is hard to counter with CB or can just enter by lackey or vial.

So i think we should focus on improving Merfolks and Goblins MUs , and remember that if Zoo is popular Merfolks and Goblins aren`t and Supreme Blue should be a good choice.

[Smmenen]

Andrew, I'm not gonna really get into the whole UBG CounterTop vs. Supreme Blue thing, but first and foremost Smemmen was not testing a Natural Order or even Supreme Blue list, and second of all he played only 9 games against each of those decks. Dark Confidant is good and so is removal, but Natural Order adds something that those cards can't offer. F


Take another look at the article in question, and read where those stats came from. They didn't come from my testing.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I top 8ed a 30ish man tourney with this deck last night. I run Coatl as a 4 of in my build, more Goyfs is good with me. The card is great, but i could see why RWM gets ran. In my meta Coatl just works better.

Round one i got paired against Goblins and stole two Siege Gang Commanders with my double Vedalken Shackles, then sacrificed them with my Volc Islands to end the game. I though that was pretty humorous.

[wmagzoo7]

Take another look at the article in question, and read where those stats came from. They didn't come from my testing.

Sorry about that, misunderstanding on my part with that one. I simply looked at the quote Andrew used which was by you and made an apparently wrong assumption based on the list I knew you had advocated in one of your articles.

The idea of fixing up the Merfolk/ Goblins matchup could be accomplished in a number of ways which all seem to be important and possibly equally important. Since both of the matchups are admittedly quite bad on paper, and sideboard slots need to be devoted to both decks which function somewhat similarly, why not run Propaganda/ Ghostly Prison along with some utility cards rather than running Hydroblasts, and Llawan, and possibly Engineered Explosives which can hurt us at times (but EE might be a card that fits the role of working really well vs. Gobbos and Merfolk, although Merfolk run a lot of must kill 2ccs the same as we do). By cutting down on the number of situational cards we can bring in more effective cards and increase our likelihood of drawing something that could possibly win the game if resolved. Other ways of helping out the matchups would be to just test more and get definitive cards that can be boarded out which is only achieved by more testing. All in all we should try to find cards that really hose both Goblins and Merfolk as they are the only things we should fear.

[Rico Suave]

There are two main problems with cards like Stifle/Wasteland in a Counterbalance deck.

The first main problem is that, due to the nature of CB/Top, aggressive tempo cards are just not the natural fit. What is CB/Top looking to do? It's looking to delay the opponent's threats long enough to establish CB/Top and lock the game down. Every deck needs a way to buy tempo early, but you have to keep in mind that there are different kinds of tempo. You have to be careful you are buying the kind of tempo your deck actually wants.

Removal like StP will buy a land drop. It is pretty obvious when you start with 0 land, your opponent plays a threat, then you play a land and StP. You are now +1 land and the board state is the same. If you repeat this process several times it's not hard to see that you can land 3-4 land drops without losing any tempo. However cards like Wasteland do not buy land drops. Wasteland buys attack phases, which CB/Top decks are not concerned about. Wasteland is a card that says "I am fine with the current board state" and that is not something CB/Top decks say very often unless they are already winning (and what is the point of using a win-more card?).

The second main problem with Stifle/Wasteland is inherent to the deck. The fundamental problem with CB/Top shells is that they aren't fast enough to outrace their problems, and so they must be able to deal with pretty much everything this format can throw at them. It is like a bastardized aggro-control deck but forced very far to the control end of the spectrum.

Stifle/Wasteland does very little about the following things you are assuredly going to face in a tournament:
1) Loam+Wasteland recursion
2) Aggressive creature rushes
3) Aether Vial, or other cards that cheat threats into play without actually casting them
4) High-CC cards that ignore CB

It just doesn't deal with the biggest problems of the deck, and what's worse is Stifle/Waste become extremely poor cards to see while digging for an answer to one of the above.

This isn't to say the black splash is bad, as I feel the black splash is very powerful in Counter/Top builds, but rather that Stifle/Wasteland is only good if you can legitimately follow up on the tempo gain. Cards like Bob are awesome with Time Walk effects, but the problem is that even if you Stifle your opponent's first land it is irrelevant because they can simply kill the Bob on their next land drop anyway (since every deck has tons of 1 mana answers to him). Then your tempo is completely lost and you would have been better served by something as simple as Duress.

Maybe if Stifle was good on the draw, or was a good topdeck, or had more synergy with the deck outside of a double Goyf draw it would be more attractive. But it just doesn't have that synergy. I'm not saying that Stifle/Wasteland is awful, but rather that hard removal, permission, or even discard is a better natural fit.

[Illissius]

Stifle/Wasteland does very little about the following things you are assuredly going to face in a tournament:
...
4) High-CC cards that ignore CB

Just to nitpick, but mana denial does make it harder to cast expensive things.

[Shimi]

Just to nitpick, but mana denial does make it harder to cast expensive things.

It is true when the games take just a few turns like merfolks and goblins are trying , CB decks needs more turns to finish off so your opponent will find the 4th and 5th land to cast that bomb.

I was looking for my game notes and records and I never lose to TempoTrash with SupremeBlue , which seems curious because it has many tempo cards and manabase disruption , also merfolks is 50-50 and goblins 70-30.So I think the real problem is manabase disruption + tons of creatures( uncounterable by CB).Also find in my notes that if I begin with EE for 1 on the play I can win easily.

[aTn]

20 lands
4 wasteland
2 island
1 forest
1 swamp
3 underground sea
2 tropical island
4 misty rainforest
3 polluted delta

10 critters
4 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
2 sower of temptation

30 other spells
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 stifle
4 counterbalance
3 daze
3 sensei's divining top
2 maelstrom pulse
1 engineered explosives
3 smother
2 thoughtseize

Sideboard
2 extirpate
2 relic of progenitus
1 tormods crypt
3 pernicious deed
2 hydroblast
1 blue elemental blast
1 threads of disloyalty
1 krosan grip
2 open slots

My impressions/comments:

1. You run CB with a manabase of 20 lands with 4 Wasteland + 1 Forest + 1 Swamp. This seems to make the "play an early CB" plan (which is good in many MUs) harder to accomplish.

2. By statement (1), it would seem that you'd have a hard time protecting a Sower (since you'll have a hard time landing CB because of your manabase). Playing Wasteland has the potential to further delay the moment you can actually play Sower.

3. If you are so worried about Zoo, why play a 2/1 (Confidant) that has so many ways to die in that MU ?

4. "2 thoughtseize": Isn't the point of playing thoughtseize in such a deck to be able to play it turn 1 (or early game) ?

5. Bob + Thoughseize + your slow clock seem to make the Zoo MU hard game 1.

6. Siding-in 3 pernicious deed, 2 hydroblast, 1 blue elemental blast and 1 threads of disloyalty against Zoo might win you Game 2 because the Zoo player might not anticipate the Deeds. Game3, I think the Zoo player can adapt his SB strategy and have a favorable MU (for example, by siding-in Needles).

7. Your aggro MU (Merfolk + Goblins) seems bad. Particulary Goblins, where Deeds is way too slow (as opposed to just slow vs Merfolk). Why no E. Plagues in the SB in the deed slots ?

8. Thank you for posting your list and good luck with it (no sarcasm here).

[tappedoutcontroldeck]

Why no E. Plagues in the SB in the deed slots ?


lol e. plague sucks a lot.....you need two out against merfollk to even do anything with their lords.

Really crap post here. Please see our site rules (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?7455-MTS-Site-Rules) and use appropriate capitalization and content when posting in the DTBF. One-liners have to be awesome in this forum; otherwise, it's spam. Thanks - Bardo

[aTn]

lol e. plague sucks a lot.....you need two out against merfollk to even do anything with their lords.

Rocket surgery much ? I was trying to remain in Andrew's choice of colors (i.e. UGB) and give constructive criticism.

Personally, if I expect a lot of Merfolk (and other Vial aggro decks) I woud probably choose to splash another color (i.e. not black).

IMO P. Deeds is inferior to E. Plague in many MUs.

Do you have any other suggestions (in UGB) ?

P. Deeds is awful (IMO) vs Merfolk lists running Stifle... and Wasteland, which basically means that you'll maybe resolve Deeds, wait for another turn to untap your lands and activate it - one more turn for them to find Stifle or other hate and more importantly, one more submarine attack from their side. Waiting to have sufficient mana to cast + activate in one turn is way too slow IMO (and that's assuming you manage to back your Deeds so that it actually resolves).

Plague has the added bonus of being interesting vs. UWX Landstill, i.e. naming Soldiers to "neutralize" Elpeth + Decree of Justice. Some UWBX Landstill players side-in Plagues in the mirror for that reason...

Plague is also interesting to shut down Empty the Warrens strategies vs. Combo (when you have extra slots after you've sided-in your hate).

Deeds is godawfully slow vs Goblins (as I said before).

[Cenarius]

Are you suggesting that you board Engineered Plague against the following decks:

Combo
Landstill

Aren't there better cards to board in? For instance Pithing Needle?

I'm playing Black Tempo Threshold, containing 6 black removal (2 Ghastly Demise, 4 Smother) and found out that Engineered Plague was not the way to deal with Merfolk, Goblins etc. I also found out that, when playing Dark Confidant, these matchups aren't that horrible. They actually showed out to be positive (pre-board). Pretty remarkable. I think the same goes for the UGb Countertop lists. What I did to compensate the agro decks was by just putting in another 2 removal in my sideboard, that's all. You can argue about playing Engineered Plague in Countertop, but I think there are better options.

Andrew, about your list. Maelstrom pulse is pretty bad. You might say, why? Well, there are several reasons.
Maelstrom pulse does nothing when there is a goyf-standstill. It's a sorcery and cost 3 mana (off-colour). There are some reasons to play it, like being able to hit artifact's and enchantment's but do you really need that? I mean you play Dark Confidant....
I would also advise you to NOT play Thoughtseize. I think there are far better options. One of them is Vendillion Clique.

[Atog]

Are you suggesting that you board Engineered Plague against the following decks:

Combo
Landstill

Aren't there better cards to board in? For instance Pithing Needle?



Combo, example belcher, you could bring in plague and name "goblin" and against landstill "soldier". Yes, there could be better cards in sideboard but those make sense if you have too much death cards maindecked against combo. About that maestrom pulse, i could tell you that will make something against countertop decks. Depending list you will not always hit 3cc to counter pulse with counterbalance. That is such of versalite card that i can't doo much than wonder you comment. Against fish, "lord of atlantis" or other lord. They tend to play as many they cant and you can do 1-for-2 or even 1-for-3 trades with pulse.

[Shugyosha]

If you're playing against Zoo you can even board a Plague or two naming Cat (lol) to hit Steppe Lynx and make Qasali Pridemage weaker or if you have seen Hellspark Elemental name Elemenal because this guy usually forces you to play overly defensive in the mid- to lategame.

Engineered Plagues are much more versatile than people believe and are rarely expected outside the Tribal/Dregde matchups.

[Atog]

If you're playing against Zoo you can even board a Plague or two naming Cat (lol) to hit Steppe Lynx and make Qasali Pridemage weaker or if you have seen Hellspark Elemental name Elemenal because this guy usually forces you to play overly defensive in the mid- to lategame.

Engineered Plagues are much more versatile than people believe and are rarely expected outside the Tribal/Dregde matchups.

This was what i meant. They work also against dredge, there are plenty of targets. And burn (name elemental or wizard if you saw grim lavamancers). Have players who play wall of roots been satisfied? Or do you still prefer Noble hierarch over that?

[Ch@os]

The point is Plague isnt effective enough, sure you can board it every third matchup but its sad for the cards being boardet out :D

[Cenarius]

1. You should not worry about Zoo. Your sideboard cards are way better than Plague, Umezawa's Jitte for instance. Although I wouldn't recommend Umezawa's Jitte in a 4 goyf, 4 bob, 3 sower list.
2. Ichorid, true. But you're playing black, so you have other/better options to deal with Ichorid.
3. Belcher, don't you play you can actually board in here? Like Pithing Needle/spell pierce and stuff?

I mean Engineered Plague is nice in theory, but it doesn't let you win all the time. Let me give an example: Elves will be played more frequent thanks to the Multikicker elf (atleast I suspect this to happen). Our team made a list with 15!!! Lords, Engineered Plague can't do anything about that, trust me. Merfolk plays 11 or 12 lords, Goblins can win even if ringleaders, warchiefs etc. are 1/1.

Conclusion: I think there are better options.

[Rico Suave]

Just to nitpick, but mana denial does make it harder to cast expensive things.

There are two ways mana denial will make expensive things not work:

1) You happen to mana screw your opponent. If they are ramping to a 4 mana spell, and the mana denial leaves them with only 3 mana, they won't cast it. For this reason alone a card like Wasteland will always be playable.

or

2) Your deck is fast enough to kill the opponent before they can get to 4 mana, even if they have the 4th mana. You can use a card like Wasteland as a Time Walk and kill your opponent "the turn before they would have won."

The problem with Stifle/Wasteland is that a Counterbalance shell is on average too slow to take advantage of #2. Furthermore, by being slower, it also gives the opponent more time to topdeck the mana they need and make the first option less attractive too.

Like I said before Stifle and Wasteland are perfectly fine and playable cards. The problem is their synergy with the rest of the deck is lackluster and quite frankly there are better options available.

[Illissius]

Yeah, I wasn't saying "you should affirmatively play Stifle/Wasteland in Counterbalance decks because of teh synergiez"; I was, as I said, nitpicking.

[aTn]

Are you suggesting that you board Engineered Plague against the following decks:

Combo
Landstill

Answer: No.

I'm saying that it may be sided-in if there are dead cards that remain in the deck after SB-ing relevant cards; that is all I'm saying.


You can argue about playing Engineered Plague in Countertop, but I think there are better options.


I am not arguing that.

I'm arguing that Plague > Deeds in the BUG-CB-Top list that Andrew posted, that is all I'm saying.


Conclusion: I think there are better options.

Agreed - I think the whole debate started when someone took a quote out of context, kind of like the following John Travolta pic:

http://prettyboring.com/files/images/travolta%20leather%20bear%20daddy.preview.jpg

Seriously, what is up with that non-hair + goatee + "I think I smelled my own fart" look/lips ?


I'm playing Black Tempo Threshold, containing 6 black removal (2 Ghastly Demise, 4 Smother) and found out that Engineered Plague was not the way to deal with Merfolk, Goblins etc. I also found out that, when playing Dark Confidant, these matchups aren't that horrible.

Is Zoo present in your meta ?

If the answer is yes, then how is Confidant in that MU ?


I would also advise you to NOT play Thoughtseize. I think there are far better options. One of them is Vendillion Clique.

IMO, Clique and Thoughtseize serve different functions and the choice to play either depends on the meta.

Anyhow, I go back to my original question: why would one play BUG-CB-Top in the current meta ?

[Mackan]

Hello guys!
I just found this forum and I've read all the pages, pheew. I just want to say that I think there is no "perfect" deck. A setup of cards might fit your playstyle, your metagame etc better that anything else. When I build my decks I start from scratch, try every card available, theorize, bounce ideas with people and keep my 75 flowing for quite some time. Im never completely done but when I feel any change will make the deck worse I settle for what I have. With that in mind I tend not to go "fancy" with combos (Hierarch, NO, Progenitus), wacky manabases overloaded with manlands (I've tried red, white 3,4,5 Color in each setup), dead draws or cards that are great when curving out, on the play (tempocards like stifle). For me it's consistency over power anytime... This is obviously not allways right and I hope some of you can convince me of the opposite.

Here's my list;

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Spell Snare
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Counterbalance
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Trinket Mage
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of will
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island

Sideboard
3 Submerge
4 Red elemental blast (or 2/2 hydroblast :o)
1 Tormod's crypt
3 Leyline of the void
2 Krosan grip
2 duress

It's very complex to explain why I run exactly these cards, but Im positive that atleast for me (with the knowledge I have right now), there's no better setup of cards. Those of you (hopefully most!) who don't share my list please start ranting! Hopefully I / you get another perspective and I gladly improve my list!

Hopefully I don't sound too arrogant =O

[Cenarius]

Hilarious reply, TBH!

Zoo is not present in our metagame. Last sunday I visited a tournament in my city and the metagame was:

Counterbalance: 6
Goblins: 6
(DD)ANT: 6
Merfolk: 6
Eva Green: 4
Landstill: 4
Bant Aggro: 4
Aggro Loam: 4
Rock: 4
(Domain) Zoo: 3

I have no idea whether Dark Confidant is good in the Zoo matchup. I think I'll board them out for more removal, since I have 3 Submerge and 1 Smother, 1 Ghastly Demise in my sideboard.

About Countertop:

I advise not to play Black. Why? It's simple:

Rhox War Monk (retarded in the metagame)
Qasali Pridemage
Elspeth, Knight Errant (This card is da bomb)

and to a lesser extent Swords to Plowshares. Black removal became nearly as good as Swords to plowshares, but will never reach the power of Swords to Plowshares in reality.

Dark Confidant is not good anymore in Countertop, because the metagame is swarmed with Agro decks. It used to be good (I played 4c Threshold w/ red for a fairly long time). But, nowadays the metagame is just too fast. UGb Tempo Threshold (my list) can play Dark Confidant, because it cán counter (nearly) everything and keeps pressure on your opponent at the same time. Countertop can't do the last part and sometimes can't do the first part, aswell.

I would advise people to play Elspeth, Knight Errant atleast 3x. The card is better than NO/Prog, since it's less vulnerable. A list like this looks pretty strong:

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf

3 Elspeth, Knight Errant

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

8 duals
8 fetch
1 island
1 plains
1 forest

+ 1 random slot (rhox war monk, elspeth, pridemage or Sensei's Divining Top are options to consider)

Sideboard

3 Back to Basics
Xx Umezawa's Jitte
Xx Hydroblast
Xx Path to Exile
Xx Relic of Progenitus
Xx Krosan Grip

[BackDr0p]

Personally, I've come to dislike this thread more and more, due to the fact that lists being posted are all over the place. Most of which, completely disregard what has been said before hand. If significant change is being made to a successful archetype, such as this one, at least make sure that there is proper explanation of card choice.

It would really help to have a sub-thread for the discussion of individual splashes. Kinda like we did in the past with the old threshold treads. It would help organize ideas, focus (for once) and let us finally make progress.

I had something like this in mind:

[DTB] CounterTop

UGWR (Supreme Blue & Supreme NO Blue)
UGW (Bant NO)
etc...

[psu42]

I agree. There are at least like 3 different ways this deck can go; talking about 10-15 different cards entirely. Not to mention just the subtle changes like Natural Order or Elspeth.

[BackDr0p]

I wouldn't call the NO package "subtle". It fundamentally changes how the deck is played.

[psu42]

I totally agree with you. I'm just saying, some lists will just lose Natural Order and change only 4 cards...where some lists change 15.

4 compared to 15 is subtle in the way I'm trying to compare here.

I don't know who it is up to when it comes to splitting threads, but it would really be beneficial here.

[aTn]

Personally, I've come to dislike this thread more and more, due to the fact that lists being posted are all over the place. Most of which, completely disregard what has been said before hand. If significant change is being made to a successful archetype, such as this one, at least make sure that there is proper explanation of card choice.

It would really help to have a sub-thread for the discussion of individual splashes. Kinda like we did in the past with the old threshold treads. It would help organize ideas, focus (for once) and let us finally make progress.

I had something like this in mind:

[DTB] CounterTop

UGWR (Supreme Blue & Supreme NO Blue)
UGW (Bant NO)
etc...





+1

I Totally agree with you.

IMO, UGW and UGWR have become the canonical choices for the current meta(s) (and I agree with that choice).

Also, posts along the lines of "bla bla, here's my list" should at least justify why players should consider the new list and not simply go with the established build(s).

That being said, people who want to debate UGB or other splashes (that does not include me) should be able to do so without clogging the underlying UGW and UGWR discussion.

[BackDr0p]

I totally agree with you. I'm just saying, some lists will just lose Natural Order and change only 4 cards...where some lists change 15.

4 compared to 15 is subtle in the way I'm trying to compare here.

I don't know who it is up to when it comes to splitting threads, but it would really be beneficial here.

In that sense, I see where you are going, and that's true.

Nihil Credo is the one who created this thread. So, it would be up to him to make the decision. I'll try to get a hold of him via PM sometime today.

[PhanTom_lt]

Right, Elspeth will now be on my to-test list. However, any ideas on my current state of the deck? The deck is surprisingly resilient to Ichorid, after sb being something like 17-6 in my favor.

3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [UG] Island
1 [UG] Forest
4 [B] Tundra
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [NE] Daze
4 [M10] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [PS] Meddling Mage

[Cenarius]

Don't you do the same? I mean, in what way does your post contribute to the discussion about Countertop? The reason I posted my list is explained above (at the original post). I believe that White should be included in EVERY countertop list.

The reason WHY I posted my list is pretty easy to explain and I think I already said it in my post. I believe that there is ONE list that is thé best in your metagame. In my metagame, I believe we all share the same metagame, Elspeth, Knight Errant is superior to NO/Prog.
Let me give some arguments:

Elspeth is:
hard to kill (only vindicate can kill it)
makes your clock faster
can make infinitie 1/1 blockers
kills your opponent Elspeth, Knight Errant (something we can consider to happen atleast once)
less vunerable to agro
makes all of your creatures so much better (especially Rhox War Monk)

Natural order can be stopped more easier by destroying the creature he or she wants to sacrifice. Elspeth doesn't require a creature on the board. It's broken enough without.

I think the reason why people play Progenitus is because it's a 10/10 beast. Something they think is cool to have. But is it in fact the best choice? I don't think so.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I've been playing the Supreme Blue + Progenitus build for the last few weeks, and you may be right to a degree about people just liking putting a 10/10 into play. I mean, the majority of the reason I took the deck to AU instead of my trusty Zoo deck was because I wanted to put progenitus in play... ;p but while I respect the power of Elspeth, I feel like she serves a different function than NO does. While Elspeth can provide a very large advantage with less set up, she does not end the game as quickly or as definitively as Progenitus does. She can be killed by opposing burn and creature rushes, too, which is a serious concern. You can't play her in the face of an enemy who is currently ahead by more than a little. Progenitus, though, since he is on his own so powerful, can pull you out of terrible board positions as long as you still have ~5 or so life or a chumper or two to hold the fort while he does his work. It's the opponent's complete inability to do shit about him once he's resolved that makes him such an asset.

I dunno, that's just my take on the matter. Elspeth's definitely good, and I don't blame anyone for running her; I just prefer NO.

[GUnit]

Cenarius,

I'm a little confused as to why you take it for granted that the deck needs a "finisher" at all. Tarmogoyf and friends normally do a pretty good job by themselves from my experiences. I'm not saying that the deck is "better" with or without a finisher; I'm merely trying to suggest that it's something that still bears consideration. Reviewing tournament results and decklists it would appear that my confusion is warranted because decks are doing well with and without the 4-drop "finishers."

That being said, Elspeth and Prog have their pros and cons for sure. Elspeth is relatively tough to kill for a lot of decks, but most decks have no way at all to kill progenitus. Progenitus provides a faster clock, pitches to force of wil and can flat-out steal games that you'd otherwise lose, but is pretty awkward when drawn (until it's BS'd away). Progenitus demands a bare minimum number of green dudes, and it opens you up to being 2-for-1'd if NO gets countered. Really, the question that needs to be answered is: "What issue am I addressing by adding these finishers? Which games are they winning for me which my deck wouldn't already win? What am I sacrificing by making room for these cards?" I believe that the answers to those questions, which are certainly dependent on your metagame, will lead you to decide which of the two, if any, is appropriate for your deck.

Of course, the other valid point to consider is the prescence of 4-drops in your curve for countertop, which I believe is the true reason that these slots are appealing. If that is the real driver behind this decision, then other strong 4-drops ought to factor into your analysis as well, such as Sower of Temptation, for example.

[Rico Suave]

Cenarius,

I'm a little confused as to why you take it for granted that the deck needs a "finisher" at all. Tarmogoyf and friends normally do a pretty good job by themselves from my experiences. I'm not saying that the deck is "better" with or without a finisher; I'm merely trying to suggest that it's something that still bears consideration. Reviewing tournament results and decklists it would appear that my confusion is warranted because decks are doing well with and without the 4-drop "finishers."

Sure Goyf and friends can finish games, but do they always finish games? No. There are times even when you play Goyf and a couple other dudes where you simply don't have an advantageous position, and you must keep your dudes on defense. Due to the relatively slow nature of CB in comparison to average speed of the deck it will face in a random match, odds are likely the CB deck will be the slower one. As a result it will generally play more defense than offense.

A deck that is slower than other decks *must* have a reason to be slower. While CB/Top can let you establish control and then play a long, drawn out grind, this is effectively putting all your eggs into one basket. If your opponent is able to deal with the CB/Top soft-lock, or if you don't even manage to see the 2-card combo, it is wise to have a back-up plan that will still work effectively and let you turn around losing games.

A finisher like NO->ProGen allows you to play defense early, buy a couple turns to develop the mana base, and then have a way to turn a stalled or unfavorable board position into a win. It allows you to win games that "you have no business winning." Furthermore, the ability to randomly NO on turn 3 will steal a number of games by allowing you to become the aggressor. If you are playing a deck (like Zoo) that is not designed to play defensively, you can just win the game right on the spot.

In a deck with lots of card manipulation, it is also wise to include cards to dig for. Sure you can cast a Ponder and see: generic land, generic counter, generic creature. But if you are playing NO, every once in a while you see cast a Ponder and see: generic land, generic counter, oops I win.

A finisher allows you to turn around games you are losing. It helps provide inevitability against an opposing deck you can't crack easily. It allows you to turn card manipulation into a win.

[FoolofaTook]

So has CounterTop basically come down to two builds at this point: Bant Aggro and Supreme Blue? I've been going over the GP qualifiers for Madrid, which have been happening all over Europe for the last couple of months and I keep seeing Noble Heirarchs in half the lists and Firespout in the other half. There are a few Baseruption entries and a few Dreadstill, but basically CounterTop seems to be dominated by the main two archetypes above.

Anybody seeing different at this point?

[aTn]

Thanks for explaining your point Cenarius.

IMO Elspeth and NO-Prog serve different functions and their inclusion is a metagame dependent choice.

My personal experience is the following.

There are decent amounts of Merfolk (and more recently Goblins) in my meta. I therefore chose to play Enigma's UGWR Supreme U list (and tested variations of it).

I initialy chose to play Progenitus since submarine attacks (vs Merfolk) or swarms (vs Merfolk or Goblins) can kill Elspeth rather quickly.

When I decided to opt for NO-Prog in my list, I was hoping for the following (in the Merfolk/Goblins MU):

1. Whiping the board with Firespout and then either resolving NO-Prog for the win or having enough guys remaining after the flames for the win.
2. Resolving NO-Prog before the board is too infested for the win.

In practice, that rarely happened.

I mostly attribute this to the fact that UGWR S.U. has a fragile manabase and greedy color requirements, namely the tricolored Rhox War Monk, the (GG) for NO, the relatively high cost of NO when facing manadenial (and possibly Port) vs. fast decks, (R) can be denied rather easily to trump Firespout.

In general MUs, the deck can manage to back its combo, but it may fall flat in the face of mana denial.

Anyhow, I have no general recommendations to this day since I want to get more testing done, but I'll post something if I find a relevant alternative/solution.

[andrew77]

I don't like elspeth at all. I also don't believe you need extra finishers if you already have goyfs and war monks. If you don't want to run the NO package try cryptic command in the 4cc slot. A friend of mine ran a u/g/w list with cryptics and he said they were fantastic. I've never tested it since I the uuu is too hard to get in my ugb list since I run 4 basics and wastelands.

[Rico Suave]

I don't like elspeth at all. I also don't believe you need extra finishers if you already have goyfs and war monks.

Goyf and War Monk are not finishers.

In fact, a single Goyf on the other side of the board will hold off both a Goyf and War Monk on your side of the board.

[gamegeek2]

I really don't think double-colored cards belong in 4-color counterTop - which is why I stick with either my own version of UWGR or play UWG w. NO.

[psu42]

When I started playing Supreme Blue I ran Elspeth over Natural Order. I personally found her too easily removeable to creature swarm decks (merfolk, zoo, goblins) and that the deck lacked a true finisher.

After adding NO I could control the game, come out of nowhere and win. The card IS pretty much unremoveable and only requires, generally, 2 turns to win then. Yeah, they can remove your creature...but they can't do it in response or anything so it has to be preemptive, which would happen a lot anyway with all the Swords flying around.

And Dryad Arbor fetch EOT generally helps solve this problem as well.

I guess if your meta isn't infested with merfolk, dredge, zoo or goblins, Elspeth might be good.

[Mackan]

...A deck that is slower than other decks *must* have a reason to be slower. While CB/Top can let you establish control and then play a long, drawn out grind, this is effectively putting all your eggs into one basket. If your opponent is able to deal with the CB/Top soft-lock, or if you don't even manage to see the 2-card combo, it is wise to have a back-up plan that will still work effectively and let you turn around losing games...


This is why I run Dark Confidant. He either gets you the missing part of the combo OR removal/blockers/counterspells to survive till you do. He also folds to cards that are bad against the deck in general (bolts etc). The value of this is nothing to joke at. If your opponent sideboard Krosan Grip and ReB he's dies to cardadvantage from bob. If he board creatureremoval he will fold to cb.
Either way you will get a more drawn out game, favoring you. To put it this way... I have a few eggs in a lot of baskets.



...A finisher allows you to turn around games you are losing. It helps provide inevitability against an opposing deck you can't crack easily. It allows you to turn card manipulation into a win...

As I wrote in my last post I rather not get myself into "loosing situations" in the first place. I prefer wincons with something else attached, like Vendilion Clique. Sure it takes a few turns more, but it get the job done in a less shaky fashion than Elspeth/NO. Why do most players need a plan-B for racing? I don't get it.

IF you want to curve with Hierarchs and monks (just a really, really bad tarmogoyf) I can see why you need something in the end of the curve to make up for the "bad" cards you play. I rather not play them in the first place, that's all.

So, how do I constantly win against Zoo without either firespout or war monk? Bob, goyf and cb are still great. You just need to get some tempo from your sideboard. I board 3 submerge and 4 blue elemental blasts which are actually better than both spout and monk!

...might aswell explain why (or atleast why I think so) before I get flamed. A good Zoo player will not overextend into nothing more than a 2-1 from Firespout. Costing 3 mana it's still a good deal from them. Also, spout does nothing against the other half of creatures in the zoo deck, or bolts. And War monk.... A zillion eggs in a very fragile basket. G1 he is good against Zoo, I admit that. But postboard there are reb/pte to take care of him. Again, he costs 3 mana (very shaky mana too!)

[gamegeek2]

I really dislike War Monk out of 3-color lists, as I think it's just really greedy.

I do like the idea of having a big, hard-to-kill finisher, but Goyf and V. Clique have worked out well so far in every matchup except control in my experience playing Supreme Blue.

[Shimi]

Hi guys, I played Supreme Blue and then changed to PRO Bant and NO CB UGW ( with hierachs , cause i think T2 wall of roots or blosson is not a very good play), PRO Bant seems very hand opening dependent and loses to merfolk and goblin as much as SupremeBlue. NO CB UGW and SupremeBlue NO also loses due to the fact that uncastable NO , RWM or Firespouts loses you the game very often cause NO without creatures are bad and Progenitus some times can't race aggros also the fragile 4color manabase makes hard to cast NO and Firespout without being disrupted in the early 2-3 turns or the low 3cc curve is problematic.So that's why I changed to this UGW list:

2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance

2 Engineered Explosives ( agains zoo , merfolks , goblins , and very versatile)
3 Ponder
2 Threads of Disloyalty ( amazing agains aggros like zoo or evagreen or rocks , also steal merfolks to hit unblockeable)

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Trygon Predator (this may be Vendillion , I just want a 3cc blue card)

I'm still developping the sideboard cause my metagame is very mutant.

So what do you guys think about it?

[MrShine]

@ Shimi

Engineered Explosives - I'm not sure if explosives is the sweeper you're looking for; against Goblins, its a great T1 play v Lackey or Vial but they play a variety of CMC cards, all of which need to be destroyed post-haste. The CMC 3 slot is their best and it would take you at least until T4 to blow them up, which may be too late (if swords isn't in the mix). Against merfolk, again T1 is good v Vial but their biggest threats are CMC 2; If you intend to hold your ground landing goyf as a blocker is a good idea and there is anti-synergy with EE in this case (which is bad w/ CB too). In this regard I don't actually see this doing any better vs Goblins or Merfolk than builds with Firespout

Threads of Disloyalty - Removing 1 creature from a merfolk swarm probably wont be doing much for you, and it doesn't even touch most of their lords which fall at CMC 3. Against Eva Green/Rock builds, they are for sure going to be bringing in K Grips (also good vs Explosives) so there isn't much value post-side... Moreover, Qasali Pridemage is everywhere these days so it is more fragile than you think.

My overall impression is that if you ever get behind on board position you are gonna have a tough time pulling out of it with narrow control/sweeper cards than with a more blanket approach like Firespout or even WoG

[Anusien]

You need a finisher for a few reasons:
1) Counterbalance stalls. They don't happen as often as they used to, but a lot of lists people used to run just flat out have no way to break a CB on both sides of the table. Most CB lists have Daze/Spell Snare, Force and CB. Being able to play a Natural Order or an Elspeth or a Baneslayer Angel to get through Counterbalance is huge.
2) Ground stalls. If both players have Tarmogoyf on the table, it's super hard to get through. This is why flyers have been run going back to Mystic Enforcer and Fledgling Dragon.
3) Beatdown decks. Zoo and Merfolk have adapted to the point where they can beat counters + Goyf most of the time. You need extra hate, be it Firespout or Progenitus or Elspeth.

[Shimi]

@MrShine

Thanks for your opinion , as i said it is under tests , EE is a great to deal with vial when in your hand , it slot is like Trygon in SupremeBlue but more versatile , that's why i use it ( i also open 2 SB slots).Threads is also versatile againts many deck (but not very effective against Goblins and Merfolks) and can take Qasali which is very strong play against Zoo , or saving your CB.
With this list i want to gain some time , slow down the aggros so i can find StP + Goyf or RWM to deal with merfolks.
Firespout is incredible good , but agains merfolks( daze + cursecatcher + waste + stifle) it seems too slow or hard to play and against goblins a simple EOT SiegeGang or RingLeader can ruin your T3 or T4 Firespout and that's why I'm looking for a answer to this decks and NO + Progenitus is not the way to deal with Goblins and Merfolks.

I'm not worried about Zoo , SupremeBlue list have a very favorable MU against it.

[MrShine]

If Threads isn't good against merfolk or goblins, which (correct me if i'm wrong) are your worst matchups, then why run them? You should look at improving your difficult matches before playing some offbeat tech that may or may not improve matches that are a little better for you already. This goes double if you aren't concerned about zoo. Plus, i know zoo players like to keep their mana open so stealing a pridemage might not actually happen all that often as they can most likely sac it in response. While I'm not sold on the control-magic type effects, have you tried Sower? It would also give you a CMC 4 for CB...

I agree that you need a proper finisher.

You say that Supreme U has a good matchup vs zoo, and you are looking for something vs merfolk and goblins... It seems to me that Firespout is what you are looking for (it also sweeps NO critters). I would recommend that you run a red splash and practice against the LD (mefolk, gobs to some degree), because its going to be an issue regardless if you are running red or not. At least you will have the ability to pull off a sweeper should they stumble on the LD, where you might not otherwise...

[gamegeek2]

I love Engineered explosives, and would definitely put it in any Supreme Blue maindeck.

[Rico Suave]

As I wrote in my last post I rather not get myself into "loosing situations" in the first place. I prefer wincons with something else attached, like Vendilion Clique. Sure it takes a few turns more, but it get the job done in a less shaky fashion than Elspeth/NO. Why do most players need a plan-B for racing? I don't get it.

You are playing CB/Top. You *will* get into losing situations whether you want to or not, simply because you spent time/mana/cards on establishing the CB/Top soft-lock and your opponent spent their time/mana/cards playing threats.

Even if you land something like CB/Top and Goyf, you will be in situations where you are facing 2 Goyfs. Or you are facing Goyf + Exalted. Or you are facing Knight of the Reliquary. Or you are facing Goyf + Grim Lavamancer. And these are just the things that Zoo can throw at you, much less the dozens of other viable decks in the field.

Clique is not a bad card, but it does not handle poor board positions.

[evilgorrilaz]

You say that Supreme U has a good matchup vs zoo, and you are looking for something vs merfolk and goblins... It seems to me that Firespout is what you are looking for (it also sweeps NO critters). I would recommend that you run a red splash and practice against the LD (mefolk, gobs to some degree), because its going to be an issue regardless if you are running red or not. At least you will have the ability to pull off a sweeper should they stumble on the LD, where you might not otherwise...

Doesn't Supreme blue already run firespouts?

[Shimi]

Doesn't Supreme blue already run firespouts?
Yes it runs in maindeck , and that is (until now) the best way to deal with merfolks , goblins and zoo.But I'm looking for a better way to deal with this 3 or at least 2.

Another day of testing , I was brainstorming with myself and found a couple of ideas and results:

1. NO + Progenitus (except on T3) don't help againts Goblins and Merfolks , so i just think that is no the way CB list should go.( NO seems like a extra-win , when goyf or RWM would do the job and the 3cc became too few).
2.Control magic effects against tribals are too slow or aren't good enought ( my last list was tested and I found that).
3.Should we play more versatile creatures so they can trade with opponents key creatures or cards? (maybe Qasali Pridemage or Wall of roots?)
4.Running some basic so you don't get wastelanded on T1 , T2 so you can fetch and Firespout on T3 , T4 ?( I'm going to go back to original list with some SB changes to deal with GBW rock and mirrors and see the results)

So , has anyone a good idea or a thought about it? And did anyone played CB + NO (w/ Wall of Roots) and get some good impressions?

Thx once more guys.

[psu42]

I play Wall of Blossoms for the card advantage... I don't really like the green mana provided by Wall or Roots.

But the deck needs a finisher and Natural Order-Progenitus is pretty much the best around and goes pretty well in the deck.

I used to play Supreme Blue that the guy from Japan played, Trygon Predators (maybe Sower I don't remember) and although I did pretty good with the list, it came to the point where I needed a way to win a game sometimes, but the ground was clogged up. I don't play exalted, nor do I want to, so if the opposing person has goyfs nobody can really do anything; aside from drawing Swords. And War Monks are great at swinging zoo/aggro matchups, but they are hardly a great win condition.

I think the creature base is fine, but hard to get there versus some decks...and that is where Natural Order comes into play.

[BGH]

hello. we made a little out of nowhere legacy "tournament" (we were 8 players) and i decided to test my little different list.

1st: the list
3 tundra
3 tropical island
3 volcanic island
3 misty rainforest
3 flooded strand
1 island
1 plains
1 forest

4 tarmogoyf
3 rhox war monk
3 swans of bryn argoll

4 brainstorm
2 ponder
3 spell snare
3 daze
4 force of will
3 counterbalance
3 senseis divining top
3 chain of plasma
3 swords to plowshares
1 lightning storm
3 firespout

2nd: the sideboard
2 engineered explosives
4 relic of progenitus
2 blue elemental blast
2 hydroblast
3 krosan grip
2 trygon predator

(yes, i don't play no/progenitus, 'cause i don't have orders and i played against a fast progenitus and i didn't loose to it, so i decided to try it without them.)

3rd: the parings

game 1 (bgr [discard, burn, ld])
r1: i had a medium hand with a top and no counters, but war monk, stp and chain. (i know he often plays aggressive decks.) i was on the play and had just the top. turn 2 he summoned a confidant which i killed with stp end of turn. i got a swans from top and played the war monk. he killed it instantly with terminate. in his turn he played a kird ape and a tarmogoyf. i showed my swans the battlefield and after he attacked once, i played eot the chain of plasma at swans and comboed him out of game.
- 3 spell snare (i didn't see anything other then creatures)
- 1 chain of Plasma
+ 2 hydroblast
+ 2 blue elemental blast (i thought, that he would play sligh with black)
r2: i don't remember my hand, but i didn't draw anything other than lands. just bad. i got a cb online and got the sdt from top, but it was to late and i died by 2 goyfs. i saw some discard. (2 blightning were to much for me)
r3: short. turn 1 sdt. turn 2 cb. then 3 goyfs next turns countering anything he got.

1-0-0

game 2 (rg vialless goblins [a good friend])
we decided to draw, before we played 2 rounds.

r1: quick. he played lackey i stp it, then facing an instigator. i can only play sdt and hope for help, but finding only a cb. hm...to late. got bashed by a siege-gang + piledriver, finding no firespout/goyf/stp/chain which had bought me some time.
- 2 ponder
- 1 daze
- 1 spellsnare
+ 2 blue elemental blast
+ 2 hydroblast
r2: i had 3 blast and a goyf, which was enough. he had a wasteland, but it doesn't matter. killed 2 lackey with blasts, wiped once with firespout and won with a goyf and a monk.

1-0-1
we wanted to make a 3rd round, but the rest was ready.

game 3 (ant [another good friend])

r1: he starts and comboed turn 2 with chant. i needed a 3rd blue card to pitch for fow. had a force+spell snare. he needed cabal ritual to get 5 mana, so it realy needed only a 3rd blue card...
- 3 firespout
- 4 stp
- 1 chain of plasma
+ 2 engineered explosives (to get mana artifacts)
+ 2 hydroblast
+ 2 blue elemental blast (for having more pitch-cards)
+ 2 krosan grip (for the artifacts[mainly sdt] too)
r2: i got an turn 1 brainstorm, puting a cb and a sdt on top. i played the balance from my hand. he wants to ponder, i show him the top from the library. i play the top and a fetchland. he gives up.
r3: he plays land ponder and i noted my hand: volcanic island, island, ponder, fow, spellsnare, goyf, hydroblast. i play volcanic go. he try to combo, by playing a chant which i counter with force, then he plays 2 led's and an infernal tutor, i play my snare. i draw then a cb and the next turn a volcanic, playing both, but...missing green mana for the goyf, but having a dead grip...then he try his combo again and i luck a ponder which counters his start ritual. i play ponder and find a fetchland and explosives. after a short time i 1st take the explosives and destroy his led's, 'cause he would only need to play an infernal tutor on this board to win. the next turn i use the rainforest to get a tropical island and the turn after this i draw a sdt and my friend gives up again.

2-0-1

a really small, but quick tournament, but was ok. really wanted a 2nd try on my friends goblins...he got red blasts to oppose mine, but had none of them in round 2. maybe next time.

this was it. any thoughts?

[videogamer99]

So, I really like this deck. I am planning on building it when I can afford to. This is the list that I am planning
Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Progenitus
1 Trygon Predator

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshare
3 Daze
3 Natural Order

Enchanments
4 Counterbalance

Artifacts
4 Sensei’s Divining Top

Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Savannah
2 Tundra
2 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

Sideboard
3 Krosan Grip
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Hydroblast
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Trygon Predator

Thoughs? Criticism? Questions? Im all ears. :P

[psu42]

Seems solid...I don't think you need 3 Grips and 2 more Predators sideboard though.

[Atog]

I'm thinking that do we really need 4-of blue blasts against red decks or could we just split with path to exile to fight against merfolks? They could be still sided againt goblins to answer their 1st turn plays / piledriver and other guys. Or do we just have to force EE@2 against merfolks and try to race :P

[psu42]

I think you need the 4 BEB effects personally to help fight Zoo. If you don't land a Counterbalance you need to be able to fight burn especially Fireblast and Price of Progress.

[Atog]

I think you need the 4 BEB effects personally to help fight Zoo. If you don't land a Counterbalance you need to be able to fight burn especially Fireblast and Price of Progress.

What you bring from sideboard against zoo? BEB/Hydroblast obiously but do you have EE:s? Just wondering do you side out FoWs for 4x beb/hydro and then some EE:s for their 1-drops..

[psu42]

I used to play Paths but don't anymore and I also don't play Explosives, I just don't like them in the deck. I just bring in the 4 blasts and take out the War Monks and a Daze (especially on the draw) or something else I don't think I need. Firespout is hard to take great advantage of in games 2 and 3 so maybe one of those.

[j-flo]

I'm just curious how people would sideboard against Armageddon Stax or Dragon Stompy. I hate those decks. How would you board against them and what would your gameplan be?

[Rico Suave]

I'm just curious how people would sideboard against Armageddon Stax or Dragon Stompy. I hate those decks. How would you board against them and what would your gameplan be?

Trygon Predator. 4 copies if need be.

A couple copies of Grip isn't too bad either.

[ddt15]

What do you guys think about these budget countertop lists, found it on deckcheck. (It doesn't play goyf!! :cool:). I've put it together and it seems like a solid and affordable list. There is a similar list which has Ponder instead of Daze.

creature [12]
4 Aquamoeba
2 Arrogant Wurm
4 Wild Mongrel
2 Wonder

instant [22]
4 Brainstorm
4 Circular Logic
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares

sorcery [2]
2 Deep Analysis

enchantment [3]
3 Counterbalance

artifact [3]
3 Sensei's Divining Top

land [18]
2 Breeding Pool
4 Flooded Strand
3 Forest
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Echoing Truth
3 Krosan Grip
3 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Tormod's Crypt

Any comments on it? Trops and Tundras would be an obvious improvement so lets ignore that.

[psu42]

Probably should be a different thread for a budget list...a budget list isn't exactly a deck to beat.

[Mackan]

I used to play Paths but don't anymore and I also don't play Explosives, I just don't like them in the deck. I just bring in the 4 blasts and take out the War Monks and a Daze (especially on the draw) or something else I don't think I need. Firespout is hard to take great advantage of in games 2 and 3 so maybe one of those.

Im just curious... Is the red splash (or white over black) really worth it then? You board out the cards that are supposed to be there for the Zoo matchup. I understand that Firespout is good against other decks, but so are other cards. And again, I really hate the monk ;)


What you bring from sideboard against zoo? BEB/Hydroblast obiously but do you have EE:s? Just wondering do you side out FoWs for 4x beb/hydro and then some EE:s for their 1-drops..

I dislike the red blasts more and more because of how the zoolists are today. The threats that stay in play are the ones to be worried about.. and BeB kills only lavamancer. It's a must against stompy/goblins though so I won't dismiss them completely.
I realy like Submerge. It's sometimes a timewalk for 0 mana or atleast removal for 0 because of all the fetches.
You can even put the lynx on top after they've fetched if they run dry on lands :) It's also a great sideboardcard for the mirror!

I feel the matchups against dredge, reanimate and storm are solid. But im a bit worried about other combo (or almost combo) decks like goblins/elves. Im also highly unfavoured against Ur faeries. I need some kind of sweeper.
The problem with sweepers in my list is 1) the colors im in) the highly unsatisfied play to follow a confidant/counterbalance up with a sweeper of some kind. First of, this made me rethink the Engineered explosives and trinket mages in my deck.
They serve no real purpose besides beeing "good and tutorable". Im going to try without them in them in favor of 2 Counterspell and a third ponder (playing the 8th fetch over academy ruins and 4th leyline over tormod's crypt in the board).

So with the hard matchups above and no sweeper whatsoever I decided to try 2 engineered plagues in the board.

Even if im the only one still playing ugb, could you please let me know what you think of the list? =)
Besides that I hope to dodge merfolk.

edit: the list...
4 misty rainforest, 4 polluted delta, 4 underground sea, 4 tropical island, 3 island, 1 swamp
4 brainstorm, 3 ponder, 4 sensei's divning top, 3 spell snare
4 counterbalance, 4 tarmogoyf, 4 dark confidant, 2 counterspell, 3 diabolic edict
2 vedalken shackles, 3 vendilion clique
4 fow
sb: 3 submerge, 3 blue elemental blast, 3 leyline of the void, 2 krosan grip, 2 duress, 2 engineered plague.

Right now the things im thinking about are:
1) I have a lot (too many?) 2-drops.
2) Are krosan grips (or artifact/enchantmenthate) really something we need? besides mirror and perhaps aether vials (and the random enchantressdeck) there are not many targets to warrant the slots in the board.

[klaus]

I used to play Paths but don't anymore and I also don't play Explosives, I just don't like them in the deck. I just bring in the 4 blasts and take out the War Monks and a Daze (especially on the draw) or something else I don't think I need. Firespout is hard to take great advantage of in games 2 and 3 so maybe one of those.

against zoo?
I'd board in a 2nd playset for sure if I could... it's your strongest weapon against any aggro strategy - boarding out all Dazes makes sense, though.

[psu42]

Well it isn't that I didn't like Path, I just felt I needed to address other decks more and ended up cutting them. Path is obviously amazing versus aggro decks like Zoo.

[Atog]

I dislike the red blasts more and more because of how the zoolists are today. The threats that stay in play are the ones to be worried about.. and BeB kills only lavamancer. It's a must against stompy/goblins though so I won't dismiss them completely.


It also hits their burn what could be crucial to lose or win match (see Price of progress and fireblast). Also bebs are usefull against vexing shushers if zoo/burn player is playing them. Zoo lists also usually play kird ape, so im fine blasting if im going to resolve turn 2 balance on play. You could also use blue blasts against belcher if you don't run spell pierces in side.

[Bongo]

I don't want to slay a sacred cow, but how important has Daze been to you?
Lately, I have found the card to be rather lacking, particularly against good opponents. The tempo loss when you use Daze on the draw also can't be neglected. I'm not saying that you should cut Daze entirely, but I think it's time to cut down to 2 or 3 copies, unless your metagame is full of combo. You still have the psychological effect, but effectively free up 1-2 slots.

What do you think?

[psu42]

I play 3. It can be very important to resolving a turn 2 Counterbalance or countering a must counter on their turn 2 or so after you played something else.

Yes, it certainly isn't the best card in the deck. But I think 3 slots is fine and I generally sideboard them out, especially on the draw.

[gamegeek2]

I'd stick with 4 Daze in more aggressive builds, such as NO Bant, but 3 in decks like Supreme Blue.

[BantFTW]

I don't know but don't u guys have alot of problems against zoo and espacially gobblins??
I really don't know what to do against gobblins...

We thouht that Duelling Grounds ain't bad ^^
But idk...

[Kuma]

I don't know but don't u guys have alot of problems against zoo and espacially gobblins??
I really don't know what to do against gobblins...

We thouht that Duelling Grounds ain't bad ^^
But idk...

Step one: Play an early Propaganda/Ghostly Prison. Try to save your countermagic and Swords to Plowshares/Paths to Exile for Seige-Gang Commander.

Step two: Resolve Natural Order.

Step three: Profit.

Goblins should be a ridiculously good matchup for you.

Zoo is a little more tricky. Some combination of extra Swords/Paths, blue blasts, and Engineered Explosives will help you out.

[PhanTom_lt]

I have noticed that the idea of siding out Force of Wills against certain decks, especially Zoo, is becoming more and more prevalent. How do you feel about this? When do you think is it correct to do so?

[BantFTW]

No, don't get fow out.
Why u would do it, it can counter much things that u don't like...

This is a really crappy post. Per the Site Rules, posts in this format should have substance and use proper English. Kindly shape up. - Bardo

[BantFTW]

I would play it with this:

18 land (no dryad arbor)

3x lorescale coatl
4x hierarch
4x goyf
3x qasali
3x RWM
3x spell pierce/spell snare (prefer spell pierce)
2x jace, mind sculptor
2x elspeth
2x top
3x daze
4x fow
4x brainstorm
4x stp
SB//
2x top
4x CB
3x PTE
3x relic of pro/tormod's crypt (your choice)
3xx (ethersworn canonist, kitchen finks,...)

lorescale coatl has been really good, seriously. I owns quit alot.

A list without content is spam. Verbal warning. - Bardo

[BantFTW]

That's why I don't play Cb mainboard, it's good against some decks but my meta is full of aggro and combo.
So combo goes the cb in and without the cb mainboard I got a good matchup against the aggro decks...

So that's why I do it and I quite like it :P.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

lorescale coatl has been really good, seriously. I owns quit alot.
+1

I've been playing Coatl since i picked up CounterTop months ago. It's insanely good, and is Goyfs 5-8, but better. I tend to board him out in the mirror due to all the steal-y effects and stuff, because every Counterbalance deck in my meta runs Shackles, Sower, ALL OF THEM.

But i named my deck CoatlTop after that snake :cool:

[BackDr0p]

It doesn't. It's the reason why I should stay away from TheSource when I'm hungover.

All I wanted to say was that Force could be replaced w/ more MU specific counters. Personally, I would never side them out. Another thing, the initial question should be rephrased and take into consideration a specific build of CounterTop. Not all builds would consider taking them out.



Note:

I just read over and deleted my previous post. It was f*cking retarded. Thx for pointing it out.

[bokepa]

Lorescale Coalt has been subpar for me. Its too vulnerable when it comes into play. If you have CB + top to protect it you are already winning or probably have the upper hand. Creatures we play should be walls or max utility. Lorescale is a huge wall and a win con, but 2 turns after you play it, and thats too slow. Also fact that lavamancer can burn it makes it even worse. If it was a 3/3....

The only one list where i have seen lorescale coalt performing good, in swans thresh with jace mindsculptor. And the list is so full that you only have room for 2 at max.

I've played numerous list of countertop to see wich one fits more my playstile and with which one im able to succeed more: NO Cb, Cb elspeth, swans thresh, supremeblue and dark countertop.

And finally i've decided to run dark countertop. I've adepted it have a fair game vs agroo and to be able to win dream halls, no list and dark depths combos. Still goblins and merfolks are a bad matchup but all lists have problems with that decks except the swans one.

This the list:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Volrath Stronghold

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
2 Sower of temptation

4 FoW
3 Spell pierce
2 Spell snare
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Smother
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Vedalken Shakles // Maelstorm pulse

SB:
1 Relic of progenitus
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Planar Void
2 Extirpate
2 Enginyered Plague
2 Pithing Needle
2 Enginyered Explosives
2 Llawan Cephalid
2 Vendillion Clique

curve of the deck
0: 19
1: 13
2: 18
3: 4
4: 2
5: 4

I really miss 3 Daze but cant find a way to include it without making the removal too slow or srewing the curve of the deck, so it get replaced with spell pierce. You have 10 ways of getting rid of creatures so spell-pierce drawback shouldnt be a problem.

I would like someway to gainlife, have been thinking of Nighthawk vampire but its casting cost is maybe too restrictive for this deck. Most games it will give you 2 life and then die but i want to test it anyway. What to move tho? Maybe in place of sower??? Then i don't have any CC 4...

Also i've thought of Thother-Sword combo, but it requieres too much slots. Maybe in the place of removal as if you manage to get it online you have won vs agroo, but everytime i put it in the deck, even when it works i can't think any other thing that is not: This combo is sucky slow. Their pieces doesnt do nearlly anything on their own and i would have to switch Volrath for Academy, and i dont want to. Volrath have been good to manipulate the top of deck for CB and to recur goyfs/utility lategame.

And the last possibility i have thought is using Basilisk collar or jitte in the spot of spell snare and switch Shakles with Vendillion clique, this would give me 14 creatures md. Don't know if that will be enought to support two pieces of equipment.

3 Diabolict edits rule vs so much progenitals out there.

The deck has fair games 1 vs nearlly all fields and sb give you the upper hand vs most common and problematic matchups. The 1 of each gy hate in the side is to make it dificult for reanimator and dredge to know what to side. Extirpate is there for loam decks. Llawan needle and plague give merfolks a hard time. Plague is good vs a lot of decks nowadays: You can name zombies, cats, soldiers, goblins etc...if it doesnt win you the game it will slow a lot your opponent. Vendillion is there for combo and its versatily. Finally EE to help against enchantress, zoo and dredge.

I want to put 2 prograndas somewhere in the 75 to help against gobos but dont know what to move.

[gamegeek2]

Coatl is definitely subpar - he doesn't have a large immediate board impact without a Brainstorm in hand, and he's worse than RWM against aggro.

I'd prefer more general aggro hate that can also deal with gobos - Path to Exile and Hydroblast are good options. Hydroblast is better against goblins because it can stop Ringleader or Siege Gang before it hits play, but Path is better against more decks.

On siding out FoW - yes I fully support the idea. They don't have any really important spells to counter besides Price of Progress, and I'd rather have more specific answers or removal spells, like Path or Hydroblast.

[Rico Suave]

I have noticed that the idea of siding out Force of Wills against certain decks, especially Zoo, is becoming more and more prevalent. How do you feel about this? When do you think is it correct to do so?

Taking out Force of Will seems extremely poor. Consider the following:

1) Force of Will is inherently a very powerful card.

2) The Zoo deck will likely be boarding in hate cards that you cannot allow to resolve. Price of Progress and Choke do not care about removal like Path.

3) Many times the concern is not with the enemy Goyf or Nacatl, but with their Path to Exile targetting your Goyf and blowing up your board position. "Answers" and "removal" do not help you defend your own threats from their spells.

4) Typically, 1:1 removal and counters are a losing strategy unless there is a card drawing engine. Brainstorm and Ponder are beautiful cards, and they certainly help, but they are not a card drawing engine.

5) Zoo looks to win by being faster. Force of Will allows you to overcome this disadvantage and have a defensive maneuver that costs no mana. It is arguably the best card in the match if you're looking to fight their tempo.

[Tangle.Wire]

Hi, as i played UGBW Baseruption and Dreadstill in the past i am not completly new to Countertop decks at all, but i am new to the supreme blue list and i have zero experience to it (just faced it 2 times on a tournament). I came up with this pretty basic list:

3 War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Lightning Angel

4 Counterbalance
4 Divining top
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
4 swords to plowshares
4 daze
2 spell snare
4 force of will
3 firespout

4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
1 plains
1 forest
1 island

Sideboard:

1 Trygon Predator
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tormods Crypt
3 Relic of progenitus
3 Submerge
3 pyroblast
2 engineered explosives

Don't worry to much about the lighning angels, i just try them beside serendib efreet which seems to be nice too till i get my elspeth or any Planeswalkers.

I am not sure how to play any Solutions like Predator or Explosives in the Maindeck but i don't want to cut any daze or spell snares.

How u guys feel about the mana base for this deck at all? i feel like mine is not that good atm so i thought of something like this beside playing a playset monks beeing able to get back some of the lifeloss and be a bit more save from extirpated tropicals (as i don't run the forest anymore)

3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 City of Brass
7 Fetchlands
2 Island

[Draener]

What matchups are you hoping to improve by changing the mana base?

1.) Merfolk/Tempo Thresh - City of brass can be wasted just as easily as duals

2.) Dreadstill - Might help, but once again cannot be fetched and reducing the number of duals only give them less targets they have to hit before they turn your fetchlands useless. If you are concerned about extirpating trops, try a single savanah.

3.) Dragon Stompy - City is still a mountain :(

Secondly, If you are concerned about mana destruction you should not be playing lightning angel. For the most part, she is too slow to change aggro matchups, and there are better cards for the control matchup. Perhaps Ajani Vengeant would be worth trying out in that slot.

[02Drop]

Is U/G countertop (as in no splash) even worth considering? Or does the slower style of the deck vs tempo thresh hurt it, considering the lack of removal?

[PhanTom_lt]

It doesn't. It's the reason why I should stay away from TheSource when I'm hungover.

All I wanted to say was that Force could be replaced w/ more MU specific counters. Personally, I would never side them out. Another thing, the initial question should be rephrased and take into consideration a specific build of CounterTop. Not all builds would consider taking them out.


Considering my current build (is there a way to make this under a spoiler tag?):

// Lands
3 [B] Tundra
4 [B] Tropical Island
2 [UG] Island
1 [UG] Forest
1 [UG] Plains
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
2 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
1 [CFX] Progenitus
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
2 [M10] Ponder
3 [VI] Natural Order

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

Against Zoo I would go -4 FoW, -3 Natural Order, -1 Progenitus, +3 Hydroblast, +3 Path to Exile, + 2 Umezawa's Jitte. Maybe -1 Top instead of one of the Forces, but here I think it is plausible. FoW is big card disadvantage in a matchup where I'm playing the control role and seek to CB as many of his plays as possible.

If I was playing a different list, say this one (an alternative I'm considering):

// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [UG] Island
1 [UG] Forest
4 [B] Tundra
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [NE] Daze
4 [M10] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [PS] Meddling Mage

then I think I side in +3 Hydroblast, +3 Path to Exile, +2 Umezawa's Jitte and take out 2 Sower of Temptation, 1 Top, 1 Ponder, 3 Pridemages/3 Forces, and 1 Force.

[Atog]

Considering my current build (is there a way to make this under a spoiler tag?):

// Lands
3 [B] Tundra
4 [B] Tropical Island
2 [UG] Island
1 [UG] Forest
1 [UG] Plains
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
2 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
1 [CFX] Progenitus
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
2 [M10] Ponder
3 [VI] Natural Order

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

Against Zoo I would go -4 FoW, -3 Natural Order, -1 Progenitus, +3 Hydroblast, +3 Path to Exile, + 2 Umezawa's Jitte. Maybe -1 Top instead of one of the Forces, but here I think it is plausible. FoW is big card disadvantage in a matchup where I'm playing the control role and seek to CB as many of his plays as possible.

If I was playing a different list, say this one (an alternative I'm considering):

// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [UG] Island
1 [UG] Forest
4 [B] Tundra
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [NE] Daze
4 [M10] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [PS] Meddling Mage

then I think I side in +3 Hydroblast, +3 Path to Exile, +2 Umezawa's Jitte and take out 2 Sower of Temptation, 1 Top, 1 Ponder, 3 Pridemages/3 Forces, and 1 Force.

If you are siding out natural orders against zoo, you are doing it wrong. If you can hold one green creature or fetch dryad arbor for natural order you usually just win. You get from side bue elemental blasts, and you have plenty of counters AND rhox war monk to fight their burn. I haven't lose a game against zoo when i have resolved natural order.. I would side out dazes in both cases and sowers if playing list above. In could come hydroblasts and path exiles. Jitte has same problem than natural order, if you could not keep one creature alive, jitte and natural order will not do anything.

[videogamer99]

So, I've been playtesting a lot. Played against some Zoo and some Merfolk and some Dragon Stompy. I overall like this deck a lot, but I still am unsure about what to side out in match-ups. Here is my list:
Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Progenitus
1 Trygon Predator

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshare
3 Daze
3 Natural Order

Enchanments
4 Counterbalance

Artifacts
4 Sensei’s Divining Top

Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Savannah
2 Tundra
2 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

Sideboard
3 Krosan Grip
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Echoing Truth
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Hydroblast
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod’s Crypt

Here is how I side against the biggest decks:

Zoo:
-3 Daze, -1 Brainstorm, -1 Counterbalance, -1 Rhox War Monk, -1 Trygon Predator +2 Echoing Truth, +2 Engineered Explosives, +2 Hydroblast, +1 Blue Elemental Blast

Ad Nauseam Tendrils
-3 Natural Order, -1 Progenitus, +2 Echoing Truth, +2 Engineered Explosives

Merfolk
-4 Counterbalance, +3 Krosan Grip, +1 Echoing Truth

Goblins
-4 Counterbalance, -3 Daze, +3 Krosan Grip, +2 Blue Elemental Blast, +2 Hydroblast

Canadian Threshold
-3 Daze, +2 Hydroblast, +1 Blue Elemental Blast

Dredge
-4 Counterbalance, -2 Rhox War Monk, -1 Natural Order, -1 Trygon Predator, +2 Echoing Truth, +2 Engineered Explosives, +2 Relic of Progenitus, +2 Tormod's Crypt

Idk. Any suggestions or help with sideboarding would be great. :)

BTW, Echoing Truth vs Submerge?
Echoing Truth is more versatile, but Submerge is much more powerful. What do you think?

[psu42]

Keep Swords in against Dredge, take out like War Monks. Swords'ing one of their dudes after they draw during their draw step is the most amazing thing. They get nothing from Bridges and can't use the dudes for Cabal Therapies or Dread Returns.

[videogamer99]

Keep Swords in against Dredge, take out like War Monks. Swords'ing one of their dudes after they draw during their draw step is the most amazing thing. They get nothing from Bridges and can't use the dudes for Cabal Therapies or Dread Returns.

Yeah. And I could get rid of one the discard outlets or a recurring threat. Keep in the Swords, cut out 2 Rhox War Monk

[dr.knockers]

Ad Nauseam Tendrils
IDK. I havent tested it, but Im guessing I take out a few dudes and focus on the disruption.

Take out the order progenitus combo against ANT. You don't want to tap out against them or spend a whole lot of mana on a irrelevant 10/10. Taking out the other threats against them is bad, you have to apply pressure. War Monk can win you the came against them. Keep stp in for xantid.

[Rico Suave]

Against Zoo I would go -4 FoW, -3 Natural Order, -1 Progenitus, +3 Hydroblast, +3 Path to Exile, + 2 Umezawa's Jitte. Maybe -1 Top instead of one of the Forces, but here I think it is plausible. FoW is big card disadvantage in a matchup where I'm playing the control role and seek to CB as many of his plays as possible.

This is an extremely poor line of thought.

Control isn't just about card advantage, or else you would be playing Dismiss instead of Daze, Concentrate instead of Brainstorm, and Evangelize instead of Swords to Plowshares.

[gustha]

Sorry, but it's yours that is a poor line of thought...control IS about card advantage, in terms of answers*cards drawn. The Sb plan of Phantom_It is good, I play landstill and I board out force as well because I cannot afford to lose cards due to pitching...

[videogamer99]

Take out the order progenitus combo against ANT. You don't want to tap out against them or spend a whole lot of mana on a irrelevant 10/10. Taking out the other threats against them is bad, you have to apply pressure. War Monk can win you the came against them. Keep stp in for xantid.

So, -3 Natural Order,-1 Counterbalance, -1 Progenitus, +3 Krosan Grip, +2 Echoing Truth? That seem like a good plan? Bouncing Chrome Moxes or other relevant cards can hurt them a bunch. I bring in K Grip so that I can force them to use the LEDs when I want them too.

And how about my Zoo sideboarding? I know taking out Daze for Elemental Blasts is good, but what else is good against them? With all of the 1 and 2 drops, I think the EE is great to side in. I also like bouncing dudes to buy me time to NO Pro for the win.

[Draener]

For ANT, I would keep all the counterbalance in. So -3 NO, -1 Progenitus, +2 echoing truth, +2 EE (blows up moxes faster and has a relevant CMC).

As for zoo, I would take the daze out for BEB, as well as taking out the predator for EE. So -3 Daze, -1 Predator, +2 BEB, +2 EE.

[psu42]

Why the hell would you take a Counterbalance out against ANT???!!!???

And Krosan Grip seems bad. Wasting 3 mana to maybe pick off a LED...seems like you are dreaming...

[Rico Suave]

Sorry, but it's yours that is a poor line of thought...control IS about card advantage, in terms of answers*cards drawn. The Sb plan of Phantom_It is good, I play landstill and I board out force as well because I cannot afford to lose cards due to pitching...

"Control isn't just about card advantage, or else you would be playing Dismiss instead of Daze, Concentrate instead of Brainstorm, and Evangelize instead of Swords to Plowshares."

[JrGman2004]

Hi guys! I'm a more recent comer to Legacy, only really getting very serious about it over the last 4 months or so. I'm trying to get ready for the SCG Legacy event that will be in Orlando at the end of March, and I think I've decided to run UGw Balanced Threshold for the event. I'm not set on my decklist yet and have been trying to experiment around at my local shop. The problem is, I don't have very many competitive decks to try and test against. Thankfully one new guy has been showing up and he's been playing Pox and Dreadstill, so that's been good experience. But the only other real Tier 1 deck I play against is a rogueishly built Rgb Goblins deck.

I haven't read this whole 50 page thread, just the last couple, I've seen here the mention of running Propaganda in the board to help with Goblins, and I imagine it would also help against Merfolk and maybe Aggro Elves. I actually was considering Ghostly Prison over Propaganda. Same effect and cmc, just white instead of blue. Maybe a little more iffy to cast, since you need to find your splash color. My reasoning for that though, is that almost 100% for certain, Goblins with have Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast in their board. Some might be Rg and have K Grips in the board, but they will definately have the REB/PBs. With using Ghostly Prison instead, you make it a little harder for them to find an answer for it, especially if they aren't playing Rg.

Thoughts? Opinions? Comments? Gripes? Insults? Let's hear 'em!

[Nessaja]

REB/PB isn't a sure include for Goblins, it shows up but usually the blue matchups are considered positive already. I think a bigger concern is that Prison doesn't pitch to FoW in emergency situations while Propaganda does.

[Tangle.Wire]

I compared the list i posted some days ago with the Supreme Blue lists on germagic, for what kind of matchups are the Jotun Grunts? I think they are usefull against dredge if we reach the mid-lategame but i am sure they are not played for this intention. I also fear ******** and Team america with my list as they will screw our mana base easily. I also saw some lists with up to 3 Vendilion Cliques in the Sideboard but i don't have the space for 3 at all and i am not sure if 1 clique will be worth a sideboard slot at all. (actually i run 4 monk and 1 trygon predator beside 4 goyfs).

[nodahero]

Out of curiosity has the Nassif and Probasco variants essentially become an antiquated set of decks? I am typically a more mid-ranger control player, Gifts/Rock or Combo (ANT) and recently put together Nassif's list for a tourney last night. I twekaed the board alot due to my odd metagame and I also cut the Shakles for the new Jace and a VClique for testing.

I went 4-0 with the list last night and was really just curuios what has happend to those other lists. The deck seems to do well still.

As a random sidenote for you guys... the new Jace was good although he often felt to be win more.

[BreathWeapon]

How does Supreme Blue win the ProBant match up? It has nothing to "out size" ProBant's Tarmogoyfs and Warmonks while ProBant o phas Exalted and NO; Supreme Blue just seems to put all of its chips into beating Zoo and Merfolk, and REB doesn't seem like it's going to solve the problem post-board.

[Tangle.Wire]

Hi there, i played Supreme Blue for the first time on the past weekend. Since i had weird Matchups and really much bad luck at all i think my results could have be much better as i saw how the deck works out the problems i always had with the Nassif baseruption list. i played:

Day I

Trainwreck 1:1 (Draw cause timeout)
Mono B Pox 2:1
Faerie Survival 1:2
GBW Rock II 1:2 (We didn't play the last game cause he could get to the top 5 so i gave up and count the game as a draw at all)

Day II

Tempo ***** 2:1
Reset Tide 2:0
GBW Rock? 1:2
Survival Elves 1:2
UB Mill 2:0

Decklist Day I

2 Trygon Predator
4 Goyf
4 Rhox Monk
1 Vendilion Clique

3 Daze
3 Spell pierce
3 firespout
2 engineered explosives
2 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 counterbalance
4 senseis divining top

20 Lands as usual

Sideboard:

3 Jötun Grunt
2 pyroblast
2 hydroblast
3 krosan grip
1 vendilion clique
2 tormods crypt
2 control magic

Day II Decklist:

4 Goyf
4 Rhox Monk
1 trygon predator

2 control magic
4 swords to plowshares
3 Ponder
3 daze
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
4 divining top
4 counterbalance
3 Spell pierce

20 Lands

Sideboard:

2 pyroblast
3 jötun grunt
1 trygon predator
3 krosan grip
2 hydroblast
1 firespout
3 Jesters Scepter (the nuts)


So the second day was much more depending on the game results as i came up with this list by the moment:

4 Goyf
4 Rhox
2 Serendib Efreet

4 Counterbalance
4 divining top
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
4 swords to plowshares
2 firespout
2 engineered explosives
4 daze
4 force of wll

20 Lands

[andrew77]

Sorry, but it's yours that is a poor line of thought...control IS about card advantage, in terms of answers*cards drawn. The Sb plan of Phantom_It is good, I play landstill and I board out force as well because I cannot afford to lose cards due to pitching...

Landstill plays spell snare so the comparison isn't valid. One of the main reasons siding out fow can completely screw you is the fact that you won't really be able to counter PoP reliably if you do.

[PhanTom_lt]

Landstill plays spell snare so the comparison isn't valid. One of the main reasons siding out fow can completely screw you is the fact that you won't really be able to counter PoP reliably if you do.

Yes, not countering PoP can be a killer,but you can be playing your lands carefully. To reinforce my point, this weekend in Madrid I played against 2 Zoo decks, one of which was piloted by Marcio Carvalho, Portuguese pro player, and used the "Take out FoW's strategy". It worked very well, meaning almost all of my spells were relevant at any point of game, and winning both matches. I also finished in top64, so it can't be said it was lucky. I played a CBTop version with 1 Elspeth and 1 Jace Mind Sculptor.

[andrew77]

Here is my list for those of you who are interested. It might look somewhat insane, but it works quite well. If you have any questions feel free to ask.

20 lands
4 wasteland
2 island
1 forest
1 swamp
3 underground sea
3 tropical island
3 misty rainforest
3 polluted delta

10 critters
4 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
1 sower of temptation
1 vendillion clique

30 other spells
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 stifle
4 counterbalance
3 daze
3 sensei's divining top
1 maelstrom pulse
1 explosives
2 snuff out
2 smother
2 thoughtseize

Sideboard
1 relic of progenitus
2 tormods crypt
3 pernicious deed
2 hydroblast
1 blue elemental blast
1 threads of disloyalty
1 spell pierce
1 dispel
1 krosan grip
1 submerge
1 trygon predator

Not many people are a fan of the black splash, but imo it is just superior to white. It does everything better than the white splash and snuff out which is the newest addition to the deck has been stellar. A thoughtseize and a smother were cut;a sower became a clique and a pulse became an EE to accommodate the snuff outs.

The sideboard might look messy, but a lot of thought and testing has gone into it. It still hasn't been perfected, but I am quite happy with it for the time being. It is always tricky building a sb for black countertop as you have so many great options.

[Moduloc]

I for one like UGB also. I do a split between putrefy and smother for removal. What do you think about running trygon preadator over cliques and sowers.

[andrew77]

I for one like UGB also. I do a split between putrefy and smother for removal. What do you think about running trygon preadator over cliques and sowers.

I tried putrefy, but it was just too slow. Snuff out is just so much faster and lets me drop a sower which is pretty weak as well. Running pulse and EE also means I don't have to run a bunch of grips in the board. Besides being a tempo machine snuff out is also a great answer to cards that can completely screw us like t1 lackey. I also really like running 6 maindeck removal spells as it is huge against matchups like merfolk where I can just keep their key guys off the board and without islandwalk or the ability to drop their hand on turn 4 merfolk is just a bunch of weenies that get eaten by my tarmogoyfs.

I'm not really much of a fan of trygon predator although I will admit sower and clique aren't my favorite cards either. I tried running jace mind sculptor, but I really like running 1 sower as it can be huge in some matchups and running 2 4cc spells is always annoying as you sometimes draw them both. Clique has also been fairly good. I think clique is better against the field, but predator can just blowout certain decks. Those decks aren't necessarily bad matchups though so I prefer clique. The 3cc creature slot is where we really lose out by playing black as we don't really have any great options.