[Archetype] CounterTop

[Misplayer]

@andrew77

I'll give you credit for running Confidant, Thoughtseize and Snuff Out in such an aggro (read: Zoo) oriented metagame. Ballsy move.

[oldbsturgeon]

I was looking over the T8 lists from Madrid and I was looking at the list that Ruben Gonzales placed with. I won't post the list but you can easily find it. What I found interesting is the presence of firespouts, though not in the main as it was suggested several pages back.

After studying the list and referencing back to the list from pages back, I decided I wanted to look at that approach but make sure each card worked well or better together and I came up with this.

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
3 Wall of Roots
2 Trygon Predator
1 Progenitus
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Natural Order
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Volcanic Island

I like this list because unlike the one that placed, the strength of firespout isn't reduced by killing your own Noble Hierarchs and the difference by adding one Volcanic main was cutting an island from what I was already playing.

I played in real small tournament the week before Richmond and was playing with the island instead of volcanic, and had 2 horrible games against mefolk. I wanted to improve that matchup but really couldn't see putting the firespouts main, so when I saw the Madrid deck, I decided to try this route instead.

By doing this of course the side has:
1 Volcanic Island
3 Firespout
but after tweaking around, I didn't feel I lost much of anything and gained game against a hard match. I have yet to try this out but it should work like Gonzales' deck did but have bigger guys to survive the spouts with.

[Antonius]

Curious, has anyone tried building Countertop Progenitus without Goyf? I now have everything necessary to build this, but no goyfs--and I don't see any way of acquiring them any time soon, either. Can the deck function without Goyf--or any of its aggro components in general--and rely entirely on the NO win?
A build i'm brainstorming:

4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad arbor
4 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Savannah

4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Wall of Roots
1 Wall of Mulch
1 Progenitus

3 Natural Order

4 Swords

3 Top

1 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
3 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Force

Also, what's the verdict on Kitchen Finks? From what I've seen in other decks, he's pretty good against aggro...has anyone run him in their list?

[Atog]

Curious, has anyone tried building Countertop Progenitus without Goyf? I now have everything necessary to build this, but no goyfs--and I don't see any way of acquiring them any time soon, either. Can the deck function without Goyf--or any of its aggro components in general--and rely entirely on the NO win?
A build i'm brainstorming:

4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad arbor
4 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Savannah

4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Wall of Roots
1 Wall of Mulch
1 Progenitus

3 Natural Order

4 Swords

3 Top

1 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
3 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Force

I'm quite sure that's not gonna work. I would play rhox war monks over wall of blossoms atleast. There is just a problem that if you don't find natural order soon enought or it gets countered you will lose. Walls just chump dudes, tarmogoyf kills them. Example, if zoo player wants to kill you tarmogoyf by attacking with 3/3 nacatl and then throw burn in tarmo, you could just block and counter that burn what's coming. With wall, you block and if you counter burn, you save your wall and zoo player saves his nacatl. So if you haven't changes to get tarmogoyf (yes they are quite pricy at this moment) i would recommend you to play merfolks :)

[Antonius]

I'm quite sure that's not gonna work. I would play rhox war monks over wall of blossoms atleast. There is just a problem that if you don't find natural order soon enought or it gets countered you will lose. Walls just chump dudes, tarmogoyf kills them. Example, if zoo player wants to kill you tarmogoyf by attacking with 3/3 nacatl and then throw burn in tarmo, you could just block and counter that burn what's coming. With wall, you block and if you counter burn, you save your wall and zoo player saves his nacatl. So if you haven't changes to get tarmogoyf (yes they are quite pricy at this moment) i would recommend you to play merfolks :)

my main deck is Lands. I happened upon the Natural Orders and built NO stompy, but that deck's way inconsistent and I want to do something else with my Natural Orders, that's why I started working on this.

What about Kitchen Finks or Carven Caryatid in the Wall of Blossoms spot? I could dump spell snare (seems like no one runs this in this archetype) for Warmonks.

[Atog]

my main deck is Lands. I happened upon the Natural Orders and built NO stompy, but that deck's way inconsistent and I want to do something else with my Natural Orders, that's why I started working on this.

What about Kitchen Finks or Carven Caryatid in the Wall of Blossoms spot? I could dump spell snare (seems like no one runs this in this archetype) for Warmonks.

Ok, that changes things. If i would be you, i would sell your tabernacle (i suppose you own that, if your main deck is Lands) and buy tarmogoyfs ;)

Yes, you could take snares off and replace them with Qasali Pridemage. It almost always does samething you want spell snare to do. Ofcourse it won't hits creatures, sinkholes etc but you get rid of Aether Vials, Counterbalances, Moat and other troublesome enchaments and artifacts. My point is, that if you can't play Tarmogoyfs, you need more dudes to fill huge hole, what lefting Tarmogoyf out of 75's is leaving. I think i would cut all those walls of and add Qasalis, rhox war monks for them. I would also add one more sensei's divining top, just because we don't run Trinket mages to fetch them and you like to see atleast one in every game.

Question to other users: Do you sb cards just for merfolks? Like Llawan, Cephalid Empress? Sure, that works in mirror too but.. Is that enought still? They got Vial to play around that, so you need to get rid of vials and then try to resolve that. It seems to extra stop effects would be better?

[PhanTom_lt]

You could be playing Trygon Predators, Werbears and Nimble Mongooses. War Monks are a must.

@Atog: I thought about that, but decided not to run a single card for a single matchup however bad it may be. I instead hoped that Jitte and extra Paths would get me there, as all you need is to remove their lords, then they are playing a bad aggro deck with 2/1 and 1/1-s.

[BreathWeapon]

I'd replace Tarmogoyf with Werebear, I ran 1 or 2 to fill slots, feed NO, accelerate NO and get an extra beater out of the deal and never regretted it.

[dan who?]

I have 2x Llawan, Cephalid Empress in my sideboard as well as some PTEs. I like Llawan because it can also bounce Progenitus (I don't run NO) as well and PTE is just some good extra removal against any aggro deck.

[BantFTW]

If u have space, run kitchen finks 2 times main because agains't aggro decks it's an awesome card.
I also run PTE side.
and with the wall.deck idea, run then this card, it owns and it's a win against aggro decks to: Perimeter Captain
U gain life and ur apponent needs 5 creatures to outraise u if he's gobblins/zoo/merfs.
and u gain life from al the walls so.

And just hold your money for goyfs, every deck plays them and on a time u will need them so...

[Antonius]

The problem with Perimeter captain is that he's not green, and seeing as how my build relies entirely upon Natural Order to win the game, i have no interest in playing any creatures that can't be used as Natural Order fodder. I think Regenerators might work better than walls. River Boa, troll Ascetic and even Isao have the power necessary to make your opponent hold off.

In fact, river boa seems like a good card to run, even in conjunction with Goyf. Has anyone tried it instead of a Wall in the extra 2cc spot?

[Jim Higginbottom]

How many slots should be dedicated graveyard hate? I'm currently at 5 (2 crypts, 2 rav trap, 1 relic) and would like to go down to 4 but I don't ever wanna lose a match to dredge. I'm playing a supreme blue variant so I have 3 firespouts main and I also have 2 ee and a path in the board.

[Shimi]

@lebron jim: I played SupremeBlue with 4 Grave Hates (2Cript + 2 Tormod's) , I really did not like the trap because it did not hit reanimator also I was playing 2 EE as you are so I can bring 4 grave hate + 2 EE + 3 Kgrip (against Needle) to defeat dreadge.

[majikal]

Curious, has anyone tried building Countertop Progenitus without Goyf? I now have everything necessary to build this, but no goyfs--and I don't see any way of acquiring them any time soon, either. Can the deck function without Goyf--or any of its aggro components in general--and rely entirely on the NO win?
A build i'm brainstorming:

4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad arbor
4 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Savannah

4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Wall of Roots
1 Wall of Mulch
1 Progenitus

3 Natural Order

4 Swords

3 Top

1 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
3 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Force

Also, what's the verdict on Kitchen Finks? From what I've seen in other decks, he's pretty good against aggro...has anyone run him in their list?
If you can build your manabase around it without sacrificing too much, Leatherback Baloth does a really good Goyf impersonation. Although I wouldn't try it without Noble Hierarch.

[andrew77]

How many slots should be dedicated graveyard hate? I'm currently at 5 (2 crypts, 2 rav trap, 1 relic) and would like to go down to 4 but I don't ever wanna lose a match to dredge. I'm playing a supreme blue variant so I have 3 firespouts main and I also have 2 ee and a path in the board.

4 slots should be fine considering firespout is decent vs them anyway. I'd go 2 crypt, 2 relic though as is sucks when they unmask you and take rav trap. Crypt and relic are also better against decks like reanomator and 43 lands. I'm less and less worried about dredge myself as it is quickly becoming a tier 3 deck. Hell if your running ponders and stp on top of firespout I'd even consider going down to 3 hate slots.

[BantFTW]

just play firespout 3 times and 2 ghostly prison side, it let's u win:
gobblins, make zoo and merfs slower and win against ichorid..

[PhanTom_lt]

Here's what I played in GP:Madrid to a 45th place finish:

// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [UG] Island
1 [UG] Forest
4 [B] Tundra
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [NE] Daze
4 [M10] Ponder
1 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

After countless adventures getting to Madrid, even leaving a teammate behind us in the airport waiting for the next flight, we got there.
A mini-report follows.
R1 Bant Survival 2-1. Counterbalance is good here. Elspeth is better.
R2 Merfolk 2-1. Paths to Plowshares and fast fat Goyfs eat sushi.
R3 Zoo 2-0. Balance makes him not be able to play spells. War Monks make him not able to kill me. Paths to Plowshares make him not have any creatures.
R4 Countertop Pro. 2-1. Resolve Counterbalance G1 and win. Not counter Natural Order G2 and lose. Counter Natural Order G3 and win.
R5 Dutch guy Wander. Plays ANT. Scoops to Balance G1. G2 War Monk pulls me up to 28 so he can't kill me with Tendrils for 20. Ill-Gotten Gains aren't that good when I return my Force of Will. 2-0
R6 Merfolk. Random Counterbalance flips G1 are good. Resolving a Goyf and a Jitte G2 is even better. 2-0
R7 Supreme Blue. I have Elspeth and Jace. He has Firespouts. Guess which cards are supreme here. 2-0.
R8 Dutch guy Bart. Plays GBW Rock. I get Thoughtseized, Pulsed, Vindicated and Deed'ed into having nothing and him having a Nantuko Monastery. 0-2.
R9 Japanese pro Tomoharu Saito. Plays ANT. I make a techy play here where I have CB + top, brainstorm, a bunch of cards and 1 mana untapped. He thoughtseizes me, I brainstorm, draw a Force of Will and leave it on top. He takes my Daze, casts a Petal and a LED, and spins Top to play Ad Nauseam. I flip Force. G2 Balance owns him again.
8-1, 24 points.

R10 Belcher. Again, CB is good here. He thinks for forever how to go past my defences and we draw. 1-1-1.
R11. Bloodghast Dredge. Knowing I should well lose, I keep a crappy hand of 4 lands, FoW, Brainstorm and Pridemage and consider conceding after a few turns. Counter his Putrid Imp. Start racing vs his 2 Bloodghasts. Play War Monk. Win the race. G2 Getting my 2 Goyfs, Noble and Meddling Mage Firestormed away was not fun. Draw a couple of War Monks. He still has the worst dredge I've ever seen. He goes for a 9/9 Grave Troll. I topdeck StP.2-0
R12 German dude Bernhard, Ur Dreadstill. Meh, CB mirrors are boring. Grip his Dreadnought and have a 7/8 Tarmogoyf ftw. 2-1
R13 Andreas Muller, Reanimator. Mull to 4. Don't get lucky with CB to counter his Exhume. G2 I can race his Inkwell with my Exalted War Monk, but he drops an Archangel. 0-2.
R14 Bill, 4c Painter. 6 MD Pyroblasts/REBs are not a good matchup for this deck. Not a fan of Mother of Runes either. 0-2.
R15 Bant Survival. Same as R1. Drop and protect Elspeth. 2-0
R16 Portuguese pro Marcio Carvalho, Zoo. The key points to this matchup are: get lucky with CB and draw many Paths to Plowshares. I do both. 2-0
R17 RGW Aggro Loam. Cool match. He Seismic Assaults on G3 me for 14 damage and out of the top16 and PT invite.
12-1-4, 37 points, 45th place.

After this tournament, I haven't been hugely impressed with Jace, although it was good, just didn't draw her often enough. However Elspeth proved to be crucial in a lot of matches, so I'm thinking of somehow sliding her into the deck.

[Rico Suave]

R9 Japanese pro Tomoharu Saito. Plays ANT. I make a techy play here where I have CB + top, brainstorm, a bunch of cards and 1 mana untapped. He thoughtseizes me, I brainstorm, draw a Force of Will and leave it on top. He takes my Daze, casts a Petal and a LED, and spins Top to play Ad Nauseam. I flip Force. G2 Balance owns him again.
8-1, 24 points.

According to Wizard's website, Saito's record day 1 was 7-0-2.

[PhanTom_lt]

According to Wizard's website, Saito's record day 1 was 7-0-2.


Yes, that's him on 21 points. In R9 two 7-1 players, him and me, played against each other, that's normal, afaik.

[Jim Higginbottom]

yes.

[BantFTW]

I woudn't even play qasali anymore, count how many u have secced him in the whole time u play the deck.
Like 1 time?? So I woudn't play him anymore.
I'm playing something like this but with firespouts side^^

And euhm Phantom_it, did u play zoo and gobblins?
How was your matchup.
And would u go 2 elspeth or 2 jace or both 2x?
I was playing first aggro bant but in this decks there's also place for it..
If u quit 2 ponder.?

Or maybe play 2 plainswalkers and 2 ponder and then 2 finks main?

Lemme know tyvm

[BantFTW]

what do u guys think of this sideboard?:

2x propaganda
3x relic of progenitus
2x kitchen finks
1x volcanic island
3x firespout
2x krosan grip
2xx (probably trygon predator or something more against combo or idk..)

[Atog]

what do u guys think of this sideboard?:

2x propaganda
3x relic of progenitus
2x kitchen finks
1x volcanic island
3x firespout
2x krosan grip
2xx (probably trygon predator or something more against combo or idk..)

What's your maindeck is looking like? I would cut those propagandas or add couple ghostly prisons supposing that you are playing W. Kitchen finks are for aggro yes? I would cut those for Path to Exiles. Those free slots i would add those ghostly prisons. I would also suggest cutting -1x firespout, 1x volcanic island and 2x krosan grips for 3x spell pierce and 1x tormod's crypt. Or i would cut one more relic of progenitus and add another tormod's crypt.

[PhanTom_lt]

I only played against Zoo. I would call the matchup even, the die roll is very important here.
I would consider 2x Elspeth and possibly 1x Jace now.
I will never cut Pridemages. They performed spectacularly. It's the exalted bonus that brings them over the top of Trygon Predator. And no, I've sacrificed it plenty of times - to kill Survivals, Counterbalances, Jittes and even a lone Dreadnought.

I would also advise using correct grammar, as I have trouble understanding your last 4 sentences.

[Shimi]

After I found 3 maindeck slots for Qasali in my CTop UGW without NO(it is more like Phantom but without Nobles) I improved my merfolks and goblin MU, also I find a way advantage against de mirror MU and Goyf Wars.Cutting Trygons make me put some other 3cc spells so the mana curve would not be affected but Qasali are insane cause it force your opponent to use his deed, smashs random BloodMoon and 3sphere, it is versatile and have 2cc which made me opt for it instead of EE maindeck.I really recomend people to test it in their CB lists.

[HAVE HEART]

According to Wizard's website, Saito's record day 1 was 7-0-2.

The last column is losses, not ties.

[MWR]

PhanTom_lt,

nice brief report and nice deck. I have been using something very similar for some time now (2 Elspeth instead of a split Jace/Elspeth).
Some short questions:

-have you ever missed the "oops, I win" factor that is "Natural Order -> Progenitus". I mean Tinker-Colossus was good in Vintage, so this must be good, and it seems in theory. Somehow it has never paid out in my testing and I have never tried it in a tournament for this reason. More opinions on this topic would be nice.

-What is your boarding plan against Zoo and Merfolk ? Path seems obvious, in previous post taking out Force of Will was mentioned against Zoo. Are Blue Blasts worth bringing in? I don't play any in the sideboard, rather having more Dredge hate.

Thanks in advance

[BantFTW]

// Lands
8 fetch (blue based)
1 Island
1 Forest
1 plains
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [NE] Daze
2 [M10] Ponder
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 kitchen finks (it makes u win aggro)
SB: 3 relic of progenitus
SB: 2 ghostly prison (it wins against dredge and slows down zoo and gobblins= a win)
SB: 3 firespout
SB: 1 volcanic island
SB: 2 slots I don't know (probably more graveyard hate or combo hate)

If I would go NOPRO package, just replace the plainswalkers with the package and in the sideboard an empyrial archangel (it helps alot too against some matchups)

What do u think of the list.
bad matchups are gobblins and sometimes zoo but normallt it ain't really hard.

[PhanTom_lt]

PhanTom_lt,

nice brief report and nice deck. I have been using something very similar for some time now (2 Elspeth instead of a split Jace/Elspeth).
Some short questions:

-have you ever missed the "oops, I win" factor that is "Natural Order -> Progenitus". I mean Tinker-Colossus was good in Vintage, so this must be good, and it seems in theory. Somehow it has never paid out in my testing and I have never tried it in a tournament for this reason. More opinions on this topic would be nice.

-What is your boarding plan against Zoo and Merfolk ? Path seems obvious, in previous post taking out Force of Will was mentioned against Zoo. Are Blue Blasts worth bringing in? I don't play any in the sideboard, rather having more Dredge hate.

Thanks in advance

Thanks.
Yes, the "Oops, I will win now" factor is missing. However, it is outbalanced by the fact that you will not be drawing dead cards - Natural Orders or Progenitus quite often end up being dead. I also had a (unlucky) streak in testing where I would draw all my NO's and no creature. Or Progenitus and no Brainstorm or FoW to pitch to. Yes, I lost a game in the GP, where the opponent pulled out a Progenitus. Next game, however, he drew it, and had to NO for a Tarmogoyf. Which lost him the game. Getting your Natural Order countered is also quite often a loss, whereas Elspeth/Jace will win the game if resolved, and won't lose the game for you if countered.

Against Zoo: +3 PtE, +3 Hydroblast, +2 Jitte, -3-4 Force, -1-2 Planeswalkers, -1-2 Ponder, -1 Top. On the draw, you can keep Forces in and take out Dazes instead.
Merfolk: +3 Pte, +2 Jitte, +2 Krosan Grip (sometimes), -4 Counterbalance, -1 Ponder, -1 War Monk, -1 Top, the last two if bringing in Grips.

Blasts are probably the worst card in the sideboard, and having more Dredge hate seems reasonable. But extensive testing showed me that I actually have a pretty even game postboard even having Blasts in the SB.

[BantFTW]

don't u play to few creatures for playing jitte?
Or what do you think of it?

and what do you fiend the list with 4 plainswalkers, a jace or elspeth is a pain in the ass so^^
like u say, NO is sometimes death and with a plainswalker u can win the game...

but I'm still not sure of the qasali, it's not bad but a trygon predator or clique is so much better

[Malakai]

In case no one has realized it yet:

Trygon Predator is mediocre versus most decks.

Rhox War Monk is only good against Zoo, Goblins, and--incidentally--Belcher. The latter is rare, and even there he's very marginal. Against the former two he's really not very good.

And of course Dark Confidant is a card that only works in aggro shells right now, as the format is just too fast to be playing a card that doesn't stop the beating AND deals damage to you.

[Kanabo]

Supreme Blue

Mana: 20
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

Creatures: 12
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk
2 Trygon predator
2 Sower of Temptation

Spells: 28
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Firespout

Can anyone help me Improve my list? Thanks

[BantFTW]

Oké:

I would go always 4 top and CB, so drop something (I don't like sowers either, they die so fast^^-)
also 3 daze is more then enough so...

[Nightmare]

Rhox War Monk is only good against Zoo, Goblins, and--incidentally--Belcher. The latter is rare, and even there he's very marginal. Against the former two he's really not very good.


This is pretty much all wrong.

War Monk is better than Tarmogoyf against Reanimator. He puts a clock on the board while extending the amount of swings they need to hit you with to win. In the situation where they use Reanimate, He often puts them on a faster clock than they put you on. He also pitches to Force (which is, regardless of becoming a near-meme, relevant).

He is the best creature in your deck (that isn't Progenitus) against Zoo. None of their removal spells touch him other than the Paths that they really want to be saving for Goyf, and he's a wall they can barely ever attack through. In combination with Counterbalance or Force protecting him, he's your best weapon to fight the aggro decks which can otherwise whittle you down to being in burn range.

He has less value against Goblins, because they're so explosive, but he's still able to hold off any single attacker, and negates the effects of at least one or two more.

I agree with your assessment of Predator and Confidant, but you're underestimating the value of RWM, for certain.

[MWR]

Thanks.
...
Against Zoo: +3 PtE, +3 Hydroblast, +2 Jitte, -3-4 Force, -1-2 Planeswalkers, -1-2 Ponder, -1 Top. On the draw, you can keep Forces in and take out Dazes instead.
Merfolk: +3 Pte, +2 Jitte, +2 Krosan Grip (sometimes), -4 Counterbalance, -1 Ponder, -1 War Monk, -1 Top, the last two if bringing in Grips.


Thanks for the reply. Regarding Natural Order: This was essentially also my impression.
Countering Natural Order seems really good in most cases, although facing a Progenitus isn't fun either.
I also tend to more often draw Progenitus instead of Hierarch+NO, so I definitely can agree on the Planeswalker plan.

Personally, I also dislike Jitte for similar reasons, but has anybody considered Stoneforge Mystic, which was shown on some deck tech on the official GP coverage? Somebody called it "like Trinket Mage only better". This is a bit exaggerated, but if playing Jitte main, Stoneforge Mystic might be worth acting as Jitte 3-4.

[BantFTW]

I tested stoneforge, and it's a just-not card...
It's good, u can get jitte and stuff but not in a cb-list.
You want much more something els...

But, I would really quit qasali's, maybe 2 mianboard but not more.
Because,
- you really don't sec it much
- you prefer much more a trygon predator
- qasali is bad against soo and goblins

Look at the top 8 lists of the gp at Madrid.

Louis plays 2 qasali's and ruben gonzalez not even one...
If you think how much you sacrefice it, it's like 1-2 in my whole life^^
So what's your guys opinnion?

And @ Nightmare, it's true. RWM is really good play 3 main and 1 side.
Nightmare would u go plainswalkers or nopro and would you play the angel side then or not against gobblins?

[Tangle.Wire]

Hi again, since i played the "basic" supreme list without Natural Orders on a couple of tournaments i had some problems facing control matchups, aggro is way possible with spouts,swords,monks,goofies also i was lucky against merfolks by drawing the pyroblasts when needed. The worst games i had where against GBW control or the Bant/Survival decks. As we can't generate a real tempo deck i feld like daze was a bit outranged here so i came up to this list:

Graf Orlock:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Spellstutter Sprite
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Rhox War Monl

1 Elspeth
3 Firespout
4 Swords to plowshares
4 counterbalance
4 senseis divining top
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
4 force of will
3 spell snare

3 Volcanic island
4 tropical island
4 tundra
3 island
3 misty rainforest
3 scalding tarn

Sideboard:

3 Sower of Temptation
3 Krosan Grip
3 pyroblast
2 hydroblast
2 relic of progenitus
2 revenous trap? (the black one)

For the Sideboard i am not really sure if i wanna keep it this way, i had some issues on Jötun Grunt instead of the traps/relics

[Nightmare]

And @ Nightmare, it's true. RWM is really good play 3 main and 1 side.
Nightmare would u go plainswalkers or nopro and would you play the angel side then or not against gobblins?

Honestly, I'm testing a list that runs both right now. I haven't really nailed down what I want to focus on, so I'm trying to get a feel for which of them are better in what situations. The only way to do that is to run them both.

I'm not a fan of running Angel in the board, and I don't see a whole lot of Goblins, honestly, so I'm not sure if it would be worth it in the board or not. I'm never looking to spend 5 mana on anything though, so my initial gut instinct is no.


Also, from a red text perspective, I've gotta ask you again to clean up your grammar and spelling. In the DtB forum it is even more important than elsewhere on the site, and your atrocious posting habits are detracting from your otherwise insightful information.

[BantFTW]

Sorry, I'm doing my best.

But are you running NORPO package + 2 plainswalkers (2 elspeth, 2 jace or one eeach?)
Jace is mostly a win, elspeths is also really annoying.
But idk, can you post what you are testing atm?
And about the angel, my meta is gobblins, zoo, ant and rock.
So then it really ain't bad...

Tyvm

[andrew77]

Stoneforge mystic is very bad. Very, very, very bad. I really don't even understand why people are considering it. Besides the cutesy vial mystic etc etc plays most decks would rather just run more jittes. People need to stop trying to innovate when it comes to terrible things like mystic.

Recently though, I've come up with the idea of cutting the 4th confidant for a trinket mage in my ubg countertop deck. As a lot of people have said confidant is bad in a lot of matchups and you rarely want 2. You really never want 2 on the board unless you have a SDT.Trinket mage is interesting as he essentially free's up a lot of sideboard room and is still a critter which the deck tends to be short on.

Snuff has also proven to be insane. It might seem greedy but being able to snuff out a t1 nacatl when you are on the draw is infinitely better than having a putrefy in your hand. It is also a huge tempo boost against other countertop decks where your life total is irrelevant. It also lets you cut down on the ReB since it is an answer to t1 lackey as well.

[Maveric78f]

Recently though, I've come up with the idea of cutting the 4th confidant for a trinket mage in my ubg countertop deck. As a lot of people have said confidant is bad in a lot of matchups and you rarely want 2. You really never want 2 on the board unless you have a SDT.Trinket mage is interesting as he essentially free's up a lot of sideboard room and is still a critter which the deck tends to be short on.
Trinket Mage is very bad. Very, very, very bad. I really don't even understand why people are considering it. Besides the cutesy vial trinket etc etc plays most decks would rather just run more engineered explosives. People need to stop trying to innovate when it comes to terrible things like trinket.

[andrew77]

Trinket Mage is very bad. Very, very, very bad. I really don't even understand why people are considering it. Besides the cutesy vial trinket etc etc plays most decks would rather just run more engineered explosives. People need to stop trying to innovate when it comes to terrible things like trinket.

Wow. That was really productive on your part.

Besides EE and SDT trinket mage fetches, crypt, relic and pithing needle post board. I'll just mention that because its possible that your mental capabilities are lacking and you couldn't figure that out. Or you might just be a really bad troll.

[BantFTW]

Trinket mage is a good card if u play with vedalken and stuff.
But in Bant Cb-top, it ain't.
It's to slow

[Maveric78f]

Stoneforge mystic is very bad. Very, very, very bad. I really don't even understand why people are considering it. Besides the cutesy vial mystic etc etc plays most decks would rather just run more jittes. People need to stop trying to innovate when it comes to terrible things like mystic.
Besides Jitte and SoFI Stoneforge Mystic fetches, SoLaS and Basilisk Collar. Plus it's a combo (creature+equipement) in one card. I'll just mention that because its possible that your mental capabilities are lacking and you couldn't figure that out. Or you might just be a really bad troll.

Edit: since andrew77 can't understand the flaws of his reasoning, I'll just recall that this "flame" was simply a copy/paste (and adaptation) of his last post.

[andrew77]

Trinket mage is a good card if u play with vedalken and stuff.
But in Bant Cb-top, it ain't.
It's to slow

There's really no direct correlation between trinket mage and shackles. Imo shackles is just too slow for the format. Bant doesn't run EE and has no real need for another creature anyway so theres no reason to even discuss trinket mage in that deck. I run black countertop though. In a Ubg deck trinket mage is definitely an option as your only other possibilities for 3cc critters are clique and predator.

[Malakai]

At this point, with the thread numbering into fifty pages and almost no post relating to the one before it, it's become clear to me that the CounterTop discussion needs to be divided up. At the very least I see:
--Natural Order-Progenitus CounterTop, aka Countergenitals.
--CounterTop Control, which more or less hasn't been discussed. And no, I am not referring to the bad, janky Landstill-without-Standstill deck proposed by Sam Black on Star City.
--Aggro-Top and other such things. If you still think Dark Confidant is playable in the deck, post there instead of wasting time in the other two threads.

I'm currently writing a large primer for the CounterTop Control archtype, which I'll post in a day or so.

[aTn]

At this point, with the thread numbering into fifty pages and almost no post relating to the one before it, it's become clear to me that the CounterTop discussion needs to be divided up. (...)

I agree about the idea that this thread should be split, but I don't totally agree with the classification you propose.

Note that I don't have anything better to suggest at the moment except reverting to threads indexed by: "colors played in deck"-CB-Top "with or without NO". My suggestion is not perfect, but I think it might provide a division which is less susceptible to change over time.

I think this thread has gone down the drain in terms of post quality and trollish atmosphere.

[PhanTom_lt]

I agree, a thread split by color again would be beneficial. I didn't really look, but I can't recall any UGb Countertop decks wrecking metagames. And most of discussion in the past few pages was about the UGb version, which wasn't very helpful for me, and others who are sticking to the UGw version, NO or no NO.

[Shimi]

This topic really needs to be splited in UGb/UGW or UGWr CounterTop with NO/without NO , i posted it before in a topic that is just discussing that split and the deferences between CTop lists and classification.

About Vedalken Shackles It is just goo against Rockdecks(3cc helps against Deed and Vindicate) and stealing a Tombstalker/Goyf/Bob makes you stay in a good shape, but just because they are slow so you can setup you mana base and give them another KGrip target(CB or Shackles).
Trinket Mage is alot better than Stoneforger cause it is more versatile , it is blue and have 3cc , on the other hand Stoneforger seems too slow( cast a 1/2 creature that can just chump block then cast and equip some thing takes 6mana or 2 turns).

Taking about the CTop+ NO vs. CTop I see people playing noble(which are really good in NO lists) in both lists and playing (18-17) lands, and that is why I dont like NO in Ctop lists: noble is just a good 1 turn drop,but if you drop it in your T2 or T3 it is slowing your possible great T2 and T3 plays, it also is bad when you have 2 lands in play and draw a noble istead of the 3th land, EE for 1 could hurt youself and CTrash could kill it your "land" with just Fire/Ice,if I'm really missing something please tell me, but remember that my arguments are that there are more times when Noble is bad than it is good(in my playing tests).

[videogamer99]

I am playing the UGw build of NO Pro CounterTop. What do you think of using the 1-of mainboard Volcanic and putting a Volcanic Island in the board with a 3-pack of Firespout?

[BantFTW]

It let's u win against gobblins and zoo.
I played it this week together with 2 ghostly prisons.
First firespouts saves me and then the ghostly.
gobblins and zoo can't do anything about it^^

I would always play it, but I'm thinking that maybe one red basic ain't bad.
gobblins and zoo also sometimes are playing wastelands and if u have 2 volcanics been wasted u got a problem...

So I'm thinking of 4 basics, one of each color and then also one volcanic maindeck.
but I'm not that sure about that so..

[Nizmox]

I am playing the UGw build of NO Pro CounterTop. What do you think of using the 1-of mainboard Volcanic and putting a Volcanic Island in the board with a 3-pack of Firespout?

Firespout is undeniably really good vs Zoo and Goblins but I'm not sure it has a place in NO builds. It kills your hierarchs and pridemages (if you run them) and hierarchs are pretty key to an NO build in my opinion.
That said if you don't play NO I advocate running them (aka Supreme Blue).

[BantFTW]

Nope, just play them it's really good.
Look at the top8 in Madrid...

ruben gonzalez plays it and he won always against zoo and gobblins ;O
Just test it and u'll see.

[Malakai]

Splitting an archtype by color makes no sense. Doing so not only makes a huge assumption about what colors should be played in the deck, but also limits our ability to reach an optimal list. The correct way to split something up is by the game plan they employ. This is consistent with how we split up every other deck.

[videogamer99]

Im currently trying out Wall of Root over Noble Hierarch for Firespout and better game VS aggro. Here is my current build
Creatures
4 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wall of Roots
2 Trygon Predator
1 Progenitus

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshare
3 Daze
3 Natural Order

Artifacts
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Tundra
2 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
3 Firespout
3 Hydroblast
2 Echoing Truth
2 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Volcanic Island

[BantFTW]

Yeah, I've played that to only the problem is that gobblins still goes to fast mostly so...
But I would still go in the sideboard ghostly prison because it's a death against some decks like gobblins :P
change it with echoing truth I would say

But why would you replace wall of roots with noble hierarch?
Noble is much faster and if you firespout it it ain't a problem.
So I would still go noble.

EDIT: A question,,
if ant goes off, and they are playing something with manacost 0, can I reveal a land or a dryad arbor with cb then and it's countered or?

[videogamer99]

Yeah, I've played that to only the problem is that gobblins still goes to fast mostly so...
But I would still go in the sideboard ghostly prison because it's a death against some decks like gobblins :P
change it with echoing truth I would say

But why would you replace wall of roots with noble hierarch?
Noble is much faster and if you firespout it it ain't a problem.
So I would still go noble.

EDIT: A question,,
if ant goes off, and they are playing something with manacost 0, can I reveal a land or a dryad arbor with cb then and it's countered or?

A) Wall of Roots doesnt get bolted or burned out on my opponents turn one. It seems like it can be a good blocker. Plus, its budget friendly. :P

B)A lands converted mana cost is 0 so it will in fact be countered with Counterbalance

[PhanTom_lt]

On the other hand, it won't get in for that crucial point of damage, won't pump your attacking creature, won't colorfix, won't let your drop a winning Rhox War Monk turn 2, won't let you assemble Countertop package turn 2 and have 3+ mana available turn 3 to shut down your opponent. If Noble is getting bolted, that only means they have a slow hand and that's one less Bolt going to you or your other stronger creatures. So essentially, Wall of Roots is better on defense if you're facing lots of aggro decks and rely primarily on NO to win the game. In most other cases, Noble should be preferred.

[BantFTW]

I am playing this deck:

Creatures:
3 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf
4 noble hierarch
2 Trygon Predator
1 Progenitus

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshare
3 Daze
3 Natural Order
2 elspeth
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
1 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
2 scalding tarn
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
3 Firespout
2 Krosan Grip
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Volcanic Island
2 ghostly prison
1 empyrial archangel
2 kitchen finks
1 RWM

Now my question is what would I side in against survival and must I play one more slot graveyard removal?
And also, is the ghostly prison to much because I play firespout to?
If u have it u win against gobblins, zoo has it hard, ichorid to so...
And would I play elspeth or jace or one of both?? Elspeth is a win if I don't have progenitus so^^
What do you guys think?
tyvm

[PhanTom_lt]

If you insist on playing Ghostly Prison, there's 2 much better alternatives - Propaganda, by virtue of being blue, and Dueling Grounds, which slows the game down to a halt, lets you win any race if you have a swinging War Monk and makes you realize how powerful Exalted ability is.
However, I don't know against what goblin decks are you playing, but Ghostly Prison is definitely not an autowin - they still have Siege-Gang to shoot you down. Zoo will burn you out, Ichorid, especially the Bloodghast version will Dread Return their big creature (Iona, Troll) and swing with that.

[BantFTW]

thatt's true.
Propaganda ain't an option, zoo and gobblins have BEB so...
And dueling grounds I don' have hehe.
But it's true, dueling ground is really good and ichorid won't play their iona, counter that shit :P.
I would wish someone here had dueling grounds that I could buy them xD.

[OurSerratedDust]

I'm using a pretty standard supreme blue list with Elspeth, and I was having some trouble with the Reanimator matchup. Does anyone have any tips for some plays against this? What about any sideboarding tech other than crypts and relics? I'm willing to tweak the maindeck a little too to help this out.

Thanks

[BantFTW]

gogo loaming shaman xD
He's one of the best things u can have hehe^^
u can't do more then 4 relic/crypt side m8

[Atog]

I'm using a pretty standard supreme blue list with Elspeth, and I was having some trouble with the Reanimator matchup. Does anyone have any tips for some plays against this? What about any sideboarding tech other than crypts and relics? I'm willing to tweak the maindeck a little too to help this out.

Thanks

Have you any Spell pierces at sb? I would recommend those and if you are playing Red Elemental blasts, you should consider these too. They handle nice mystical tutors, brainstorms, ponders and counters. But Spell Pierce handles their discard and reanimate cards too. And ofcource try to resolve counter/top asap.

[OurSerratedDust]

Have you any Spell pierces at sb? I would recommend those and if you are playing Red Elemental blasts, you should consider these too. They handle nice mystical tutors, brainstorms, ponders and counters. But Spell Pierce handles their discard and reanimate cards too. And ofcource try to resolve counter/top asap.

Hmm. Could spell pierces maindeck instead of spell snares be good? Or is countering goyf in other matchups too important?

[BantFTW]

no, they are good but u don't loose from combo maindeck...
gogo spell snare--> much better

[videogamer99]

On the other hand, it won't get in for that crucial point of damage, won't pump your attacking creature, won't colorfix, won't let your drop a winning Rhox War Monk turn 2, won't let you assemble Countertop package turn 2 and have 3+ mana available turn 3 to shut down your opponent. If Noble is getting bolted, that only means they have a slow hand and that's one less Bolt going to you or your other stronger creatures. So essentially, Wall of Roots is better on defense if you're facing lots of aggro decks and rely primarily on NO to win the game. In most other cases, Noble should be preferred.

Those are valid points. I will keep the Hierarchs in.

[Malakai]

I do not understand how you can lose to reanimator if you are playing CounterTop. CounterTop beats their entire deck. You have Force of Will and some other counter. And, if they get Iona, they have to name white. Inkwell is easily raced with Tarmogoyfs.

Then, after boarding, you bring in Crypts, which two-for-one them.

I'm about 15-1 against the deck, and the loss was only because he had the turn 1 play with counter backup 2 out of 3 games, something that is exceedingly rare for them.

[aTn]

Have any of you tested R. Gonzales' UGW(r)-CB-Top w/ NO list from GP Madrid's Top8 ?

I don't see what new elements this 'new' list adds to already existing Supreme U lists.

In particular, I think the 'greedy color requirements' argument still stands - RWM (UWG), NO (GG), Firespout (R), Trygon (GU), CB (UU), etc.

It's seems like the Firespout plan is still relatively easy to deny given that the deck's color requirements are bound to not let you leave a fetchland uncracked for Volcanic - a problem previous versions of the deck had.

What do you think ?

------
Aside
------


Malakai said: Splitting an archtype by color makes no sense. Doing so not only makes a huge assumption about what colors should be played in the deck, but also limits our ability to reach an optimal list. The correct way to split something up is by the game plan they employ. This is consistent with how we split up every other deck.

How would a 'color split' implicitly limit the colors played in the deck ?

It's a simple combinatorial exercise to take into account all possible color splashes (of course not all color splashes would be in the DTB section).

If you don't want to have to change the threads every 3 months when a new version of the deck pops up, I think classifying by color splash is better.

If that's not an issue, then I'd go with your proposition.

[BantFTW]

The good thing is that he doesn't play qasali, qasali ain't that good^^
Also he plays trygon predator mainboard what's really good...

the only thing that I've changed is that I don't play ponders, I play
+1 top
+2 jace/elspeth (probably elspeth because it can let u win games :P)

[MWR]

This weekend I played at a PTQ sideevent at our local regular location.
Approx. 24 players wanted to enjoy some Legacy, so after 5 rounds I finished second with 4-0-1, with my only draw against the Dredge player who finished first with also 4-0-1.

My list

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Rhox War Monk

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
3 Daze

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

SB:
4 Path to Exile
4 Meddling Mage
3 Krosan Grip
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Clone

First round was against a janky Extended deck straight from the PTQ plus some random additions such as Tangle Wire and Wasteland. In games 1 and 3, there was just much he could do against fast Noble Hierarch, RWM and Tarmogoyf openings.
Game 2 was embarassing, Chalice @1 and drawing Swords, Brainstorms and other 1CC stuff instead of Qasali and Krosan grip was unfortunate, but I could have won, if I had not forgotten a Tabernacle trigger on my Tarmogoyf.

Second round against the only female player with Zoo. First game, I was not able to find a solution to Knight of the Reliquary,
second game she bolted my 2/3 Goyf assuming he would die, but unfortunately he was 3/4 because of the additional instant being in my grave as soon as SBE were checked. I felt a bit sorry because I saw that mistake coming and somehow I didn't want to let her take it back... But she got her revenge, somehow, more on that later. Third game, Elspeth did everything, making Chumpblockers, give Goyfs and WarMonks flying. So glad I didn't find any Natural Order to play instead of Elspeth.

Third round: the zoo player's husband with dredge. Well, we did not play very fast, he talked a lot, I also did some trash talk ;-), and I didn't want to concede the first game because I still had one out (Elspeth's flying ability as he was on low life).
In the second game, graveyard hate kept my Goyfs pretty small, so this game also took quite long. Anyway, a lot of spectators joined because we were the last ones to play, and in the third extra turn we decided to draw.

Fourth round: Enchantress. I have played him several times, but he always is successful in testing and I am lucky in tournaments. First game, he did not find a draw effect, he stalled me pretty long but finally my Hierarchs were able to finish the job. Second game I had no solution for his second enchantress and lost to several angels from the empty throne... Third game I just drew too much hate (Qasali and Grip). He had a City of Solitude which was a bit annoying for my Qasalis because I could not sac them in response to removal. Grip on Sterling grove plus Pridemage on Solitary Confinement were too much. He mentioned a play mistake on is side afterwards, but am not sure what it was.

Fifth round against Ugr Dreadstill. I desperately try to punt the game by playing FoW although I know there is one on top for his Counterbalance. Krosan grip and Pridemage shine in this matchup, "exalted trigger on stack, before blockers kill your factory/Dreadnought" is pretty good in that case. Close game ending with two CB-Tops in play, so no spells resolving from there. My goyf went the distance.

In second place, I got some store credit, although the first place received twice as much only because of stupid tie breakers. A bit revenge for winning against his wife ;-)

Random thought: Elspeth is just amazing, I just don't see replacing it with Jace of NO-Progenitus in the next time....
Especially the +3/+3 and flying surprised me, hasty evasive damage seems pretty good for this deck, so I might consider a even more "aggro style" deck with Vendilion Clique or Rafiq.

Thoughts?

[BantFTW]

drop the stupid qasali and play this:

or, 3 cliques
or, 2 cliques and 2 predator
or, 2 clique/predator and 2 jace (I would suggest this :P)

[PhanTom_lt]

drop the stupid qasali and play this:

or, 3 cliques
or, 2 cliques and 2 predator
or, 2 clique/predator and 2 jace (I would suggest this :P)

Ok, you have been calling Qasali stupid for your last 10 or 20 posts, but never gave an argument, except "you don't sac it much". It seems like you haven't playtested them at all or even Predators and just throw ideas around. I, for one, prefer Pridemage to Predator for several reasons - it's a decent aggro beater on his own, Exalted ability lets me be more aggresive, not having to attack to destroy something is a life saver quite often, attacking and sac'ing Pridemage usually gives +3/+3 total to Tarmogoyf and it's a 2 drop, which allows me to trade more aggresively when I'm in control role.

Now give your arguments. Thanks.

[BantFTW]

Exalted ain't bad, but u never sec it at first, and I prefer trygon predator over qasali because of that^^
It's also better against some decks, but it's also a personal choice...

Maybe I would play 2.
Also if u look at GP Madrid top 8's you see they are not playing any in cb-top so...
And much more people agree with my I think^^

[Pyronick]

Exalted ain't bad, but u never sec it at first, and I prefer trygon predator over qasali because of that^^
It's also better against some decks, but it's also a personal choice...

Maybe I would play 2.
Also if u look at GP Madrid top 8's you see they are not playing any in cb-top so...
And much more people agree with my I think^^

So what you're saying is you have no argument. I think I'll keep with the Qasali Pridemages because of the arguments Phantom made. Removal at instant speed, feeding goyfs, and exalted triggers deffinitly seem to take the cake.

[4zureSky]

I too prefer trygon because it has flying, it destroys enchantment/artifacts more than once, and we can pitch it to FoW which is exactly what I need from time to time. And about testing Elspeth.. I love it a lot!! I was facing Eva Green yesterday on MWS and Elspeth saved my ass and turned the whole game around! If I had the NO that game I would have lost. I took out 3 NOs and 1 Progenitus for the Elspeths and some other card. Seems like a really great fit for this deck. It is just the WW that kinda bothers me. Other than that she will be a great addition into my UGW Countertop.

[deadlock]

I dont know if this has been brought up yet, but another advantage of Pridemage is that he is a two drop in a deck which is quite low on two drops for CB. On the other hand the 3 drop slot is sufficiently saturated through Warmonks and sometimes Firespout (Supreme Blue). With not room for Spell Snare its quite important to have a decent amount of cmc2 in a deck that relies that heavily (= running 4) CB's.

[DrHealex]

I prefer pridemade over predator. If your argument is "you don't sac it much"... wouldn't that just make predator an overpriced flyer? I would have to say that I don't sac it very often... but when I do, it is VERY relevant. Also, more exalted makes your Rhino War Monks soooo much better (and goyfs to a lesser extent). First turn heirarch, 2nd turn war monk, 3rd turn pridmage, 1-2 cost something, is much better than the alternative.

On elspeth vs NO. I am still not sold on it. There were several situations sunday where i would simply have lost if not for natural order. I feel this deck needs the explosivness of NO in order to survive... I do like elspeth in landstill though :-P

[4zureSky]

It's exactly the opposite actually, I sac too much and therefore I should use trygon so I don't need to keep playing qasalis to sac them. Trygons are useful for me since I can keep destroying their artifacts/enchantments. But if they don't have as much artifacts/enchantments qasalis are exactly the way to go due to the exalted ability and artifact/enchantment removal IF needed. More of a personal opinion really and depends on the metagame right?

[BantFTW]

and it flys, haha beat that :P
nono, predator is good and I choose it over qasali so...

Clean up your posting, now. Infraction issued. ~ Nightmare

[Petal Collector]

I prefer Pridemage because you can hit artifacts/enchantments without having to wait for a combat phase, it adds additional exalted triggers with Hierarch (I've often attacked for 7 in the air with Vendilion Clique), and its a solid 2-drop for CB/curve considerations as mentioned before.

Also it swings for 3 by itself, rather than Trygon which swings for 2 alone.

[videogamer99]

Both are good. It is ultimately dependent on how you play the deck and personal preference. I personally play the Predator.

Regardless, I was wondering what people thought of Spell Snare v Daze?

Daze and Spell Snare are both there so that I can counter 2 Drops (Daze with CB and Top) I like Spell Snare more overall, but Daze can hit all spells and has the ability to hit 2 drops continuously. What do you guys think?

[Pyronick]

Well I think it's important to factor in what 2 drops we should fear.

If the main one you are worried about is Tarm, then Spell snare would likely out perform Daze because most players (depending on whats been done in the first 2 turns) wouldn't drop one on turn two. This allows them to have the 1 colorless open for Daze more often then not.

Off the top of my head however, he's the only two drop that I can personally think of that is held. The reason I prefer Daze over Spell Snare, is the ability to play out War Monk on turn 2 (With Hierarch) or a Qasali and keep the ability to counter a turn two/three drop for them while being tapped out.

Then factor in the ability to counter anything in the game and I think daze wins out. Yes there will be situations where its sitting in your hand and they have 4 lands out, but I think the benefits outweigh the weaknesses.

Lastly, I too fear Tarm hitting the board as much as anybody else, he's a pain in the butt for any deck really. (OK OK not any deck but you get my point :tongue:) And being a Daze runner, I think that Qasali compliments my list well, because of the ability to out Goyf Goyf.

[SMR0079]

There is a thread on sideboarding agaisnt Lands/u - What are the best options for countertop? Both with and without Progentius.

Back to Basics is a great hoser but it's very narrow considering how few basics Countertop runs. Right now I just have graveyard hate and pithing needle.

[videogamer99]

Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
1 Progenitus

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshare
3 Daze
3 Natural Order
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Ponder

Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
2 Tundra
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
3 Firespout
3 Spell Pierce
2 Krosan Grip
2 Path to Exile
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Rhox War Monk

I like the changes I made. What do you all think?

[sauce]

im pretty sure id rather play either EE or Llawan as I imagine Firespout are there cuz of merfolk.

[4zureSky]

Yea, I agree with sauce. Llawan is sb'd only toward something with blue and is kind of limited due to that. Firespouts maindecked is more versatile and can go from goblins to merfolk and it doesn't kill our gofys and rhox war monks. I would rather side in EE than Llawan just because it is more versatile like firespouts.

[videogamer99]

I am playing Firespout for the Merfolk match-up. I used to play folk awhile ago. A timely Firespout paired with a Path or Swords can destroy the deck. Saying that, if I were to change my deck more, I would cut the Volcanic Island for a Tropical Island, 2 Firespout for Llawan and the 3rd Firespout for a 3rd K-Grip. Personally, I like Spout the most since it is good against Zoo, Merfolk, and Goblins. It also hurts affinity and Dredge if they can't win on their turn. I dont like EE against Goblins, affinity, and dredge. I just see Firespout as more powerful against one of my, if not the, worst matchup.

[sauce]

if your meta has a lot of merfolk & goblins, i am afraid to tell you but cbtop is not the deck to play... i dont like playing bad matchups all the time.

[aTn]

Maindeck bounce (e.g. chain of vapor, echoing truth or whipe away) or maindeck Jace, the Mind Scupltor give you outs to Iona if Reanimator or Bant Survival are present in the Top8 tables in your meta (see the Top16 lists in the recent SCG tournament).

[sauce]

ive had 1 main deck echoing truth before, its pretty hawt.

[OurSerratedDust]

I'm sure this will show off my inexperiencedness, but has anyone ever considered Ajani Vengeant in the board? For the elspeth players out there, you could board him in for her, and either tap down their threats, or burn them out.

[4zureSky]

I think the bad thing about ajani compared to elspeth is the red for ajani and the fact that ajani doesn't make infinite tokens/pump up ur creatures. Having 4 colors as others have said can make the deck inconsistent or unstable.

[Malakai]

If you have some way to stop their Mazes of Ith, i.e. Pithing Needle, Lands is a very winnable matchup, possibly even favorable.

[aTn]

I'm sure this will show off my inexperiencedness, but has anyone ever considered Ajani Vengeant in the board? For the elspeth players out there, you could board him in for her, and either tap down their threats, or burn them out.

In my opinion, A. Vengeant or Elspeth is too slow vs fast aggro, which is very present these days (e.g. Merfolk, Goblins). When you'll land your plainswalker, chances are the board will contain enough opposing creatures to make the life of A. Vengeant or Elspeth a short one. The only MU where I can see having A.Vengeant or Elspeth as something good would be against control.

[Malakai]

In my opinion, A. Vengeant or Elspeth is too slow vs fast aggro, which is very present these days (e.g. Merfolk, Goblins). When you'll land your plainswalker, chances are the board will contain enough opposing creatures to make the life of A. Vengeant or Elspeth a short one. The only MU where I can see having A.Vengeant or Elspeth as something good would be against control.

This is a valid point, and one I agree with. Cards like Vedalken Shackles, Knight of the Reliquary, and Control Magic will all be potent against control decks, and still very useful elsewhere. Elspeth only seems good if you are running Rhox War Monk (to pump) and Noble Hierarch (to hit double white); if that's the case, you should just be running Natural Order in your four slot, as that's essentially the only reason to run either of those two creatures.

[psu42]

Beating lands is pretty easy I thought with ProBant.

1. Fetch basics
2. Get Counterbalance
3. Top with 2 cc on top
4. Natural Order -> Progenitus

They can't keep Glacial Chasm in play forever.

[BantFTW]

elspeth is good against a lot of decks.
Even against Zoo it's good, only not against really fast decks (gobblins and merfolks-^^-)
But it let's you win against normal speed decks.
Also against reanimator it let's u win because u can outrace their creatures with a goyf/rwm

But I think if you are running NOPRO package you don't really need him and 6 slots is also to much I think (if you count progenitus also)
but maybe sideboard I don't know?
And btw Jace is also really annoying and let's you win also against decks so...

I would go or NOPRO or 2 jace and 2 elspeth.
Elspeth and jace aren't death cards but progenitus let's u win the game and that doesn't elspeth or jace always do so..

I really don't know what I should play, we'll see if I test

[4zureSky]

NO Pro vs Elspeth/Jace really depends on how you want to play with your deck and what kind of decks are in your metagame. Sometimes I prefer NO with progenitus and sometimes I prefer elspeth. There are times when I had NO pro and wanted elspeth and other times I had elspeth and wanted NO pro. I tried to include both in there but there were too many dead draws and I decided to go to elspeth with the infinite token/pumping.

[aTn]

The only reasons I play 1 Jace the Mind S. MD is because it bounces Iona and is good against control, which is present in my meta. Against bant survival and reanimator it's more a case of how not to lose than how to win, you then can choose to either play 2 bounce spells MD or 1 bounce + 1 Jace tMS - I chose the latter.

[Malakai]

Maindecking bounce to deal with a card that you only have to deal with in already favorable matchups does not make sense. The cards you should be worried about against Survival Bant are Survival itself and Natural Order, if they play it. With Reanimator Iona isn't even all that scary, since they either have to name white to keep you off removal, or they name blue and you just top top top until you find your Swords.

Instead of dedicating two maindeck slots to a deck you should already be beating and a deck that is extremely underrepresented in the meta, you'd be far better served running something there to combat the tribal decks that continue to plague the archtype. I hear Control Magic is pretty good against Iona naming white.

Also, it's not as if we don't run any counterspells.

[Rico Suave]

The only reasons I play 1 Jace the Mind S. MD is because it bounces Iona and is good against control, which is present in my meta. Against bant survival and reanimator it's more a case of how not to lose than how to win, you then can choose to either play 2 bounce spells MD or 1 bounce + 1 Jace tMS - I chose the latter.

The reanimation target of choice against CB decks is Inkwell Leviathan, not Iona.

[aTn]

The reanimation target of choice against CB decks is Inkwell Leviathan, not Iona.

Personally, I don't find it that clear cut and IMO Iona fills that spot.

This is based on personnal experience vs Reanimator, on the experience of friends playing Reanimator vs. UGW CB-Top-NO and the experience of people I don't know playing Reanimator (see for example: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16911-[Report]-I-play-Reanimator-Therefore-I-R-Winnar-2nd-out-of-106-in-Vestal).

Iona beats for 7, Inkwel beats for 7.

Iona evades (flying), Inkwel evades (islandwalk).

Iona on (W) cuts StoP, RWM and QP, meaning you're left with Goyf, Hierarch, Arbor and NO-Progenitus to win (+ Reanimator being relatively fast, it might land it's target early game).

Iona cutting win cons means its (probably 3 turn clock) is going to be hard to match.

Inkwel is shroud.

In the absence of bounce (which was game 1 for most Bant NO lists prior to last week-end), I'd favor Iona.


Malakai said: The cards you should be worried about against Survival Bant are Survival itself and Natural Order, if they play it

I think that is fairly obvious...

But having tested the MU enough to know that Iona finds a way to hit the board often enough to be annoying, I'm looking for outs.


Maindecking bounce to deal with a card that you only have to deal with in already favorable matchups does not make sense.

I don't find these match-ups all that favorable, then again, I mostly played against a very good Survival Bant player...

FYI

14th place at a StarCityGames.com $5,000 Legacy Open tournament in Indianapolis

Maindeck
1 Forest
(...)
1 Chain of Vapor
(...)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
(...)


Malakai said: Instead of dedicating two maindeck slots to a deck you should already be beating and a deck that is extremely underrepresented in the meta


atn said: bounce or maindeck Jace, the Mind Scupltor give you outs to Iona if Reanimator or Bant Survival are present in the Top8 tables in your meta

[DrHealex]

Personally, I am happy everytime an inkwell is their chosen target at me. All I have to do is natural order for emperial archangel and they are near powerless to stop me!

Iona is ALWAYS a kick in the nuts.

[Rico Suave]

I'm basing my experience off the guy who won GP Madrid. Yes, he goes for Inkwell against CB decks. Naming white with Iona shuts off StP, but it raises a lot of other complications. A lot are still able to cast things like Sower and losing Iona to Sower is failure. Having your Iona chump blocked by V.Clique or T.Predator is also failure.

Inkwell is a lot better.

Nevertheless, if nobody uses Inkwell against you then by all means count on Jace to save you against Reanimator.

[aTn]

Naming white with Iona shuts off StP, but it raises a lot of other complications. A lot are still able to cast things like Sower and losing Iona to Sower is failure. Having your Iona chump blocked by V.Clique or T.Predator is also failure.

Iona is a 7/7 flyer, the 2 x Predator + Clique play is faaaaaaaar fetched...

Are these plays occuring with significant probability game 1 ? I don't see many lists with either Sower or Clique + Predator maindeck. Maybe I'm wrong... Also, it's possible to back a Iona long enough to win (they play Fow, Thoughtseize, Bounce and tutors for all that) - see aforementioned tournament report for an example.

@ Sower of Temptation: For 2UU, I'd rather play something that gets Iona off the board and requires them two spells to get Iona back on the board (discard + reanimate); getting your Sower bounced EOT and them getting back Iona FTW is a pain; considering they effectively play 5 bounce spells maindeck this is a definite possibility - it's even uglier post-board.

The choice between Iona and Inkwell is also (obv) dependant on gamestate (in particular the Reanimator player's hand).

My point is simply that statements like "Inkwell is the reanimation target of choice against CB decks" are way too simplistic and even if they are true, they are simply a statement of wishful thinking, not actual play situations occuring 100% of the time. See aforementioned tournament report where - if I'm not mistaken - almost 100% of successfull reanimations vs. UGW CB-Top-NO were Iona (ok, that's another extreme). My tournament/playtest experience confirms that Iona is a reanimation target with a high enough probability to be annoying. Therefore, I choose to have a plan for it. The fact that Iona comes up in other decks (e.g. Bant Survival) further justifies my choice. Of course, if these MUs aren't relevant in your meta, then it's a non-issue.


Nevertheless, if nobody uses Inkwell against you then by all means count on Jace to save you against Reanimator

If you want to assume I'm a complete noob and thus change my argument to favor your sarcastic replies, go ahead, I'll stop wasting energy replying and wish you good luck with grade school. EDIT: Yeah, I know, I'm intense (sorry about that btw), too much redbull and no sex will do that to you.

If not, then cheers.

[Malakai]

Grabbing a Basilisk Collar with Trinket Mage and racing Iona has worked rather well.

[Arsenal]

It appears as though Pro-Bant CounterTop decks have completely replaced Baseruption (Gabriel Nassif's 2009 list). Is that pretty accurate?

[Aggro_zombies]

It appears as though Pro-Bant CounterTop decks have completely replaced Baseruption (Gabriel Nassif's 2009 list). Is that pretty accurate?
Basically. If you want a slower, more controlling build, you'd run something like Supreme Blue, the Japanese Counterbalance list. However, part of the reason NO Counterbalance is so popular and so strong is the ability to drop an unanswerable threat out of nowhere, whereas the slower control versions have a harder time in a format that's since adapted to the Counterbalance lock.

[chokin]

Natural Order is the closest thing to feeling like you just played an unfair Tinker. But it is a bit more difficult to cast, and the sacrifice is way more specific. The end result however is still a big unanswerable threat that ends the game very quickly. A bonus is that you can go utility in a pinch as well with Trygon Predator being able to knock out enchantments or artifacts that stand in your way. Why play fair?

[Atog]

I played yesterday in +30 person tournament with no-prog bant and finished 3rd. Could be better but what you can make. I played against these:

R1 ug-merfolks 2-0
R2 Aggro Loam 2-0
R3 Leyline of the Void / Helm of Obedience combo (B-G) 2-0
R4 Mefolks 0-2
R5 Mirror 2-0

Against 1st round opponent trygon predator was golden. I was able to hit 2x A.vial, 1x jitte, 1x Umezawa's Jitte and 1x Standstill. Don't ask how i manage to hit standstill when trygon was on the battlefield. 4rd round merfolk was mono-u and g1 i lost on my own playmistake. I was able to attack with rhox war monk or tarmogoyf with exalted, but i played Natural order before combat and sacrificed my Noble hierarch. G2 was just a overrun. I played 1st turn Pithing needle naming "Aether Vial" and opponent played land passed. Couple turns later i can't resolve a single creature when he played couple mutavaults and standstill. I broked standstill next turn and opponent tell me later that he drew 3x Force of will.. I guess my natural order didn't get any changes to resolve :) Did i already mentioned that i drew total 2x StoP / paths in two games against both merfolks? I played this list:

4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plain
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk
2 Trygon Predator

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

SB:

2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Spell Pierce
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Pithing Needle
2 Path to Exile
3 Blue elemental blast / Hydroblast

Thanks Kuma for good list! I added basic Plain to fight against wastelands and that was great addition. I was always able to fetch out basics and opponent just stare my basics when played wasteland after wasteland. After tournament i won't be sure if those Pithing needles are needed / enought good. Sure, i didn't get change to use their full value against planeswalker's example but when i played them they seemed to do nothing or opponent had always some answer to them. Example when i played against aggro loam, i had couple needles in play named "seismic assault" and "engineered explosives". Opponent then just played maestrom pulse and then it was almost over.

[BantFTW]

I want to say that you get really easy matchups but merfolks are hard...
The others are really easy for you.
How is your meta, like no aggro (zoo & gobblins)??
Because if you would play against them you would really have a hard time.

And I play some artifact/enchantments side with an enlightened tutor,
doensn't those let you win against merfolk alot of times?

[Atog]

I want to say that you get really easy matchups but merfolks are hard...
The others are really easy for you.
How is your meta, like no aggro (zoo & gobblins)??
Because if you would play against them you would really have a hard time.

And I play some artifact/enchantments side with an enlightened tutor,
doensn't those let you win against merfolk alot of times?

Easy matchups.. I guess i have to believe you.. or not. IF you get counter/top online and 2cc top of library then you have good changes against loam and suicides. That only works if you get throught their hate (maestrom pulse, relevent silence, EE, discard etc.). That said, i get counter/top online 1/4 of those games..

There were zoo and maybe one goblin player, but i don't see how zoo is bad matchup for us? Im like 10-1 against zoo but against goblins i get some problems if i won't get decent start with counters. There is 3 hydroblast / blue elemental blast for both matchups..

I play also EE in side but i don't want to cut anything for enlightened tutor, just because i think that's not better than any card in this deck ATM.

[SMR0079]

I have been playing the Pro version now for a couple of months but have been tempted to return to a more traditional or supreme version as of late becsaue Merfolk is seeing a local resurgence. I have also lost a couple matches to another Countertop player with the more tradiotinal version.

In the past I usually beat traditional countetop just by forcing through Natural Order, but players are adapting and running more 4 cc spells, Sower, JAce, and Emperess from the side. That combined with the fact that the pro version seems more sub optimal cards for the mirror, see noble, RWM, the balance seems to be tilting back toward the more traditoinal builds.

thouhgts?

[sdefreit8]

I have been playing the Pro version now for a couple of months but have been tempted to return to a more traditional or supreme version as of late becsaue Merfolk is seeing a local resurgence. I have also lost a couple matches to another Countertop player with the more tradiotinal version.

In the past I usually beat traditional countetop just by forcing through Natural Order, but players are adapting and running more 4 cc spells, Sower, JAce, and Emperess from the side. That combined with the fact that the pro version seems more sub optimal cards for the mirror, see noble, RWM, the balance seems to be tilting back toward the more traditoinal builds.

thouhgts?


I dont have much experience with this deck but have been keeping up with it and even playing it on MWS to understand how the deck plays. Idk if it is moving back to the more traditional build, but this NO PRO combo for as strong as it is will start to get weaker. You cant just start putting a 10/10 pro everything beat stick on the field and expect people to not start prepping for it. Its similar to iona. Granted she is strong has heck, but control decks like landstill are using black removal to kill her now.

I think any really strong combo or play that is used a lot is going to have answers found for it eventually. Now just because of this doesnt mean NO PRO shouldnt be played. Idk the deck well enough to give a sure fire answer to that. But Id probably guess the combo is weaker now than it was when it was first introduced.

[Shimi]

I have been playing the Pro version now for a couple of months but have been tempted to return to a more traditional or supreme version as of late becsaue Merfolk is seeing a local resurgence. I have also lost a couple matches to another Countertop player with the more tradiotinal version.

In the past I usually beat traditional countetop just by forcing through Natural Order, but players are adapting and running more 4 cc spells, Sower, JAce, and Emperess from the side. That combined with the fact that the pro version seems more sub optimal cards for the mirror, see noble, RWM, the balance seems to be tilting back toward the more traditoinal builds.

thouhgts?

I was testing 3 CounterTop Lists: SupremeBlue , UGW Coutertop , Progenitus Countertop.
SupremeBlue is best against an aggro meta( goblins , merfolks , zoo) but loses to Progenitus Countertop and has manabase fragility(bloodmoon + mass wastelands).

UGW Countertop can assemble Ctop very fast and has a best manabase stability but it has no board sweeper or gamebreaking spells(Progenitus) having a fair goblins and merfolks game but has some dificult against Zoo to hold a horde of 3/3 creatures on early 2-3 turns.It loses to Progenitus Countertop and some GWB Rock variants.

Progenitus Countertop is very interesting, it can pull out some T1 noble which helps to deal with T1 and T2 threats and helps with manabases issues but seems more unstable and more dificult to assemble fast CB lock but it has some T3-T4 wins that is devastating against other Aggro control decks and CB variants or Zoo.More about Noble , it is great as T1 drop but when you play it in T2 or T3 or drop it but lost landdrop it slows some strong plays, usually goyf stalls are not very important cause you are not taking the aggro role so you can wait with goyfs facing each other until you CB lock and StP away their block, exalted don't help against exalted creatures atacking you, swinging for 5 or 6 to take 4 or 5 is usually a bad play against goblins , merfolks , zoo , so exalted is just relevant in the aggro-control games.Also you are playing No and Progenitus and cutting some Daze , ponder or SdT so your Combo MU is worst and you "waste" some SB slots to deal with this problem.

So SupremeBlue seems better in a aggro meta , UGW seems better in a low-Progenitus meta with more aggro-control and control decks , Countertop Progenitus seems better in a meta with few Merfolks and Goblins but alot of aggro-control and Zoo decks , just keep an eye open for Black based decks which plays Edicts and Perish in SB.

My final thoughts are that: Progenitus + NO increases your good MUs win percent but lows your bad MUs win percent( merfolks and goblins) , so your paring matchs will be more relevant.And I don't think this is the way to go, for me SupremeBlue is more estable and have more fair games , the great problem is to deal with other's No + Progenitus(some 4cc spells in sb could solve?) and fix some manabases issues.

Did you guys agree with me or you have some diferent analyses or arguments? I'm open for discuss and sugestions.

[SMR0079]

If your not on the Pro plan then you need access to 4 drops. I'm currently running Sowers and a Jace with Empress coming in post sb. This has helped quite a bit. I'm not completely sold on Jace yet, as she doesn't do much for you against aggro, but is great in the control mirror.

[dan who?]

I'm not on the NOPro plan either. I talked with P-M a little while ago and got some great advice about his old Supreme Blue build. Now I currently run Sowers in the main and dropped ponders for some spell snares. I like Sower because it is a 4cc spell and it's ability to steal a creature has really helped me in some match ups. In the sideboard I have Llawan to help with Merfolk, Progenitus, Inkwell etc and it's a 4cc spell as well which helps.

[Kanabo]

Is The Countertop deck with Dark Depths still viable? I am wondering, because I would like to play it but it seems less popular.

what do you guys think about it?

[BantFTW]

It ain't bad but it's to slow I think...
If u go NOPRO, much faster and stuff so

I don't really played it much so ask other people

[Malakai]

Is The Countertop deck with Dark Depths still viable? I am wondering, because I would like to play it but it seems less popular.

what do you guys think about it?

The deck you are referring to was never viable. Smmemen just hadn't done sufficient testing.

[SMR0079]

Quote Originally Posted by Kanabo View Post
Is The Countertop deck with Dark Depths still viable? I am wondering, because I would like to play it but it seems less popular.

what do you guys think about it?
The deck you are referring to was never viable. Smmemen just hadn't done sufficient testing.


http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31802

It's viable, but doesn't improve your bad matchups, and hasn't been proven in a large venue.

I faced it multiple times with my Pro CTop build and it was always a tough match. The combination of card advantage from Bob and the fact that they only need to resolve a 2 drop to win, made it feel like I was the under dog.

[JoeChaos]

I'm in love with BUG counter top, so I don't plan on changing the core, but any suggestions would be nice.
Plan on running it at the 5k this weekend

4 Bob
4 Goyf
2 Sower

4 Brainstorm
4 FoW
4 Stifle
3 Daze
4 COunterbalance
3 Top

1 Putrefy
2 Thoughtseize
3 Smother
2 Pulse

4 wasteland
2 island
1 forest
1 swamp
3 underground sea
3 tropical island
3 misty rainforest
3 polluted delta

SB:
2 extirpate
2 relic of progenitus
3 pernicious deed
2 hydroblast
2 blue elemental blast
1 thoughtseize
1 Sower
2 Perish

[Shimi]

Where is the 4 tampo , this card is just better than CB and can find all that you need and fix you land drops, if you are playing a classic CB deck you should play 4 of , try cutting the seize cause you have much more important T1 and T2 plays that don't deal you 2 dmg.

[pippo84]

I actually like Dark Depths and have done a top 8 with the deck, but I'm not still so sure what's the correct shell for the combo.
I will play UB for sure and probably G.
The main problem of Dark Depths are Wastelands. For this reason I think the deck should play a choice of the following cards: wasteland (to destroy other wastelands), Stifle or Pithing Needle.

[JoeChaos]

Where is the 4 tampo , this card is just better than CB and can find all that you need and fix you land drops, if you are playing a classic CB deck you should play 4 of , try cutting the seize cause you have much more important T1 and T2 plays that don't deal you 2 dmg.

I would love to fit the 4th top in, but thoughtseizing on the play and getting to see their hand is soooo valuable. Plus hitting something like a vial when you don't have a counterspell is amazing.

[Kanabo]

Do you have a decklist I can see? Because im trying to make one.

[Malakai]

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31802

It's viable, but doesn't improve your bad matchups, and hasn't been proven in a large venue.

I faced it multiple times with my Pro CTop build and it was always a tough match. The combination of card advantage from Bob and the fact that they only need to resolve a 2 drop to win, made it feel like I was the under dog.

You faced it; I tested it, many times, even playing it in several small tournaments.

Yes, it is the favorite in CounterTop mirrors for the reasons you listed, but that hardly makes it viable. In fact, it picks up huge percentages against any control deck, and combo decks as well. However, that doesn't come close to making up for its abyssmal percentages against Merfolk, Goblins, Zoo, and Canadian Threshold. The fact that black's removal is either situational (Ghastly Demise) or expensive (everything else) does not help this at all. The deck is powerful, sure, but it is not viable.

----

Moreover, Dark Confidant is a bad card in CounterTop. Right now, Bob is really only good in aggro shells that have the luxury of ignoring his life loss and lack of affect on the board because they have other creatures out that must be handled. CounterTop cannot afford to play a creature that doesn't affect the board, doesn't stop the bleeding, and causes you to lose life. Card advantage is great and all, but Bob simply isn't worth it. Besides, there are other ways of generating card advantage besides just drawing cards.

Remember, the goal is to win the tournament, not top 8.

[Malakai]

I'm not saying that black isn't a viable splash. In fact, there are some good tools there. What I am contending is that neither Dark Confidant nor the HexDepths combo are viable--or, rather, optimal, which is the same thing.

[BantFTW]

Atm, this is my list, but I would like one more land maindeck so.
This is what I first wanted to do:
- 1 top, but u can't play 3 top's^^
- 2 kitchen finks, +1 land and +1 enlightened tutor

Enlightened tutor is good to get many sb stuff or if I would play it mainboard it can get
things like cb and top so that ain't bad either^^...
Let me know what that you guys think of it

tyvm

the list:

Creatures:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
2 trygon predator
2 kitchen finks/ clique (my meta kitchen finks)
1 progenitus

Spells:
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Natural Order

3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 volcanic island
3 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

SB:
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 enlightened Tutor
2 llawan
1 relic of progenitus
1 wheel of sun and moon
3 firespout
1 volcanic island
2 ghostly prison
1 canonist

EDIT:

Also, I'm not that happy with the Dryad Arbor, it's a creature that you can sacrifice for NO but it slow you down alot.
what do you guys think of it?

[Kanabo]

so what makes C-Top Depths a bad deck? I am debating wether Bob needs to be in it or not because I really like Living Wish.

what do you guys think?

[gamegeek2]

This is my list of CB-top depths

// Lands
4 [CS] Dark Depths
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [P3] Island (2)
1 [PT] Swamp (4)
2 [SHM] Sunken Ruins
3 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 [B] Underground Sea

// Creatures
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [ZEN] Vampire Hexmage

// Spells
3 [DD2] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [5E] Brainstorm
2 [ZEN] Grim Discovery
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [ON] Smother

[Kanabo]

Why dont you bother splashing green for goyf?

[chokin]

@gamegeek - do you think you really need 3 Urborgs if you have as much draw as you do? I'd say no more than two to keep it relatively consistent and not bump into duplicates too often.

Also, I'm curious how your list handles aggro since you only run three removal spells...or are you relying on OMGBIGDUDE to get you through? I ask because you could probably afford to cut 2 Ruins for 2 Ponders to dig your pieces. Your curve is pretty low, so I don't see the reason to have 22 lands.

[pippo84]

This is my list of CB-top depths

// Lands
4 [CS] Dark Depths
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [P3] Island (2)
1 [PT] Swamp (4)
2 [SHM] Sunken Ruins
3 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 [B] Underground Sea

// Creatures
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [ZEN] Vampire Hexmage

// Spells
3 [DD2] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [5E] Brainstorm
2 [ZEN] Grim Discovery
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [ON] Smother

I would cut 4 Thoughtseize and the 2 Vendilion Cliques to put 4 Tarmogoyf and 2 more removals.
Oh, btw you have just 17 U cards. Not sure if it's enought to support Force of Will.

[hismastersvoice]

Why dont you bother splashing green for goyf?

This version of CT is already quite vulnerable to Waste so going three colors is actually more problematic than in NO Bant for example, since at least 5 land slots are already taken up by your win con and you sometimes have to run junk like Sunken Ruins.

And adding Goyfs actually defeats the point of running DD, since you can just ride Goyfs and Confidants to victory, and never bother with assembling Hexmage/Depths

[nodahero]

That dosn't defeat the point. It increases redundancy. That is similar to saying don't play Tendrils when you run a back up Empty the Warrens in storm...

[hismastersvoice]

That dosn't defeat the point. It increases redundancy. That is similar to saying don't play Tendrils when you run a back up Empty the Warrens in storm...

Running an extra win condition in the form of one card is called redundancy.

It's not redundancy when you have to run 4 cards (or 8 is you count the less than stellar Hexmages) and severely destabilize an already shaky mana base to get your secondary win condition.

[Malakai]

This discussion is pointless. The deck, WITH goyfs and more removal, loses to Zoo/Merfolk/Canadian Thresh (read: 25% of the meta) consistently. Without Goyfs, you'll lose almost every time.

[nodahero]

@hismastersvoice: I think you misunderstood me. I was not defending the Hexmage/Depths. I was defending the inclusion of goyf irregaurdles of whether or not you run some 20/20 monstrosity.

[aTn]

The quality of the removal (or lack of) in (B) and the fact that you can't play Rhox War Monk or Quasaly Pridemage are enough to make me stay away from UGB in today's metagame. If I really wanted to play (B), I wouldn't play CB-Top and I'd stay away from those Islands so as not to lose to Merfolk. I'd go more with a GWB deck (with Goyf, Confidant, K. Finks, Birds of P., Quasaly P., Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy, N.O. + Progenitus, Swords to P., Vindicate and equipment).

[pippo84]

This discussion is pointless. The deck, WITH goyfs and more removal, loses to Zoo/Merfolk/Canadian Thresh (read: 25% of the meta) consistently. Without Goyfs, you'll lose almost every time.

@Malakai: why do you say that this deck loses almost always to Zoo, Merfolk and Canadian ***** even adding Goyfs and more removal? With Canadian ***** I see the deck having a hard time playing against Stifle and Wasteland, but adding lots of removal should make the aggro MU's ok.

Please discuss your opinion.

[aTn]

pippo84, here's my opinion based on playing both UGB CB-Top in the past and now UGW CB-Top (with N.O) now:

If your creature base consists of Sower + Bob + Goyf (like the list posted on the previous page), then the only effective threat you'll be likely to have on the board will be Goyf (i.e. your other creatures are dangerously inside the burn range). Zoo will play better and cheaper removal than you (i.e. Burn + Path to Exile). Zoo will probably put too much pressure on and off the board before you seal the deal. IMO, playing white + NO gives you better chances to make things stabilize with RWM + Goyf + better removal so you can eventually take the upper hand with either CB-Top or N.O. + Prog and eventually win.

[BantFTW]

That's why I would play green-black-blue-red countertop...

You have maelstrom pulse, the beater is tombstalker, u got confidant.
this deck is really strong but still loses from NOPRO countertop so^^

My mate always plays it, if somene wants a decklist ask it.
But he has trouble against aggro and also against progenitus.

[aTn]

That's why I would play green-black-blue-red countertop...

But he has trouble against aggro and also against progenitus.

I'd rather pass on that.

Does anyone have good arguments for/against the following statement: in the current meta, UGW(X) is the best splash for CB decks?

I have already made my case for UGW in previous posts.

[BantFTW]

yes, play one volcanic island.
For side another volcanic and 3 firespouts.

let's see.
I never^^ lose to zoo and gobblins anymore now after sideboard because I also play a enlightened tutor and 2 ghostly prisons side.
enlightened tutor can fetch it for you.

My sideboard plan is really cool I"m thinking, enlightened tutor is so good^^

aTn, did you see my decklist previous page?
look that, it works wonderly well so try to play it.

If you don't like NOPRO, play 2 elspeth, a new jace and a rafiq (this one owns)

Also, the problem is that I want one more land but don't know what to take out...
Maybe the 2 kitchen finks and then a land and an enlightened tutor main hehe

We'll see tomorrow on legacy event GP Brussel (Living in Belgium so)

[Shimi]

I have no doubt that Red is the best color to splash if you want to splash something in UGW CB Decks, red just solve the problems against your worst matchs ( Zoo , Goblin , Merfolk). NOPro can solve the Zoo problem but firespout is much better when you are at low life and against Goblins and Merfolks, but i don't know if you can run noble + firespout(cause you are hurting your fragile manabase).
On the other hand , you have Black which can give Dark Confident( not so good against aggro) and some hate against Pro (edict effects) , against Reanimator( reanimate itself , faerie , edicts or black removal for iona on white and inkwell) and some sort of tribal hate( Plague).

I found myself testing NOPro build with no splash but if I begin to face many merfolks and goblins I will change to SupremeBlue without thinking once.

I hope the discussion about UGW x UGW(x) x No-Pro (which for me seems to be a metagame call) have more SB plans and game plans cause they are similar lists but with diferent goals.

[BantFTW]

The good thing is that we don't have alot of merfolk decks because people here think it's a lame deck^^
But hierarch and firespout together goes pritty good, what you woudn't think...

[memnarch]

I'd rather pass on that.

Does anyone have good arguments for/against the following statement: in the current meta, UGW(X) is the best splash for CB decks?

I have already made my case for UGW in previous posts.

My build is this so; IMO yes. Swords, Path and Knight Of The Reliquary are real good. Ethersworn Canonist and Gaddock Teeg are good storm stoppers too. You also get Bant colors: Noble Hierarch and Qasali Pridemage. With all this Exalted power I like swinging with a single flyer IE: Vendilion Clique.

[Waikiki]

The good thing is that we don't have alot of merfolk decks because people here think it's a lame deck^^
But hierarch and firespout together goes pritty good, what you woudn't think...

so how did u do in brussel? I went 5-1-2 getting a draw vs dreadstill and a draw vs some uber staller where judges did nothing against. game was mine time was up. Too bad.

[BantFTW]

sorry, missed my train fack that :P
but there's next week the first trial for the belgian legacy cup in Brussel so with byes for Bazaar.
But did you play survival or another deck now?
i'll talk yah at Benelegacy :P

friend of me did go top 50 but he stayed there saturday and I haven't been there saturday because I had to play football^^
Do you know the top 8 and with how many players you guys were??

[Waikiki]

I played counter top cause I did not plan to go to this event. I lend my loyal retainer to someone else :) we where 145 I believe.

Dont know the T8
it contained: counter top, fish, ant and more.

[Shimi]

Hi guys, I was just reading GP Madrid's Paulo Vitor Damo da Rosa Report at Channel Fireball and found that he and other people board out FoW against mirror matchs and other matchups which makes no sense for me.
So playing UGW , SupremeBlue or CounterTop Progenitus which are the matchs that you guys sideout FoW , for what and why?

[lolosoon]

he and other people board out FoW against mirror matchs and other matchups which makes no sense for me.
I do think there is some CardAdvantage=Win point of View here ?!

IF they switch FoW for Dispell or SpellPierce (or a mix), they keep the same amount of countermeasure for CounterWars or vs decks with a thick threat density.

But even with a cc of 1, leaving at least 1-2 mana open each turn having or bluffing Dispel//Pierce//Snare in hand is slowing the deck which then slide from an Aggro-Control to a Control(-Aggro) approach. Ok, some opponent's early bomb can sneak through early game due to that, but the deck is packing enough answers beside the permission package, so it isn't a big deal...

[Malakai]

@Malakai: why do you say that this deck loses almost always to Zoo, Merfolk and Canadian ***** even adding Goyfs and more removal? With Canadian ***** I see the deck having a hard time playing against Stifle and Wasteland, but adding lots of removal should make the aggro MU's ok.

Please discuss your opinion.

Extensive testing (> 100 games), as well as playing the deck in tournament environments. Like I said, I believed the deck to be good, and so spent a lot of effort on it.

[BantFTW]

I board it out against zoo and gobblins lol :P^^
Not against mirror, u want to counter the things that aren't good for you ^^

[OurSerratedDust]

Can someone explain to me the differences between Supreme Blue and NO Countertop, matchup-wise? Which areas get stronger or weaker by switching between them? Sorry if this is a stupid question.

[Shimi]

Can someone explain to me the differences between Supreme Blue and NO Countertop, matchup-wise? Which areas get stronger or weaker by switching between them? Sorry if this is a stupid question.

From my point of view and based on my extensive tests.

Supreme Blue has Ponders + Firespout and usually 2 basic lands(islands) while NO Contertop has Noble Hierarch + NO + Progenitus, so Supreme Blue is more controlish than NO builds , ponders can help you to set up CB + Top as soon as possible and dig for answers , since you play 4 colors your mana base is more fragile (you run only 2 basic lands) , Firespout + RWM + Trygon make you counter 3cc spells easier than other builds , and Firespout is there to deal with Zoo , Goblins and Merfolks which are "Problematic matchups for Cb decks" it is a one side only wrath of god , so Supreme Blue is the anti-aggro Counterbalance list.

In NO Countertop you cut some lands and ponders to fit basic lands (basic forest , islands and sometimes plains) and noble hierarchs which gives you more acelleration and help you to go offensive/explosive sometimes( T2 RWM or CB with daze proof).No + Pro gives you some 4cc spells which is a weakness in SupremeBlue lists, also it provides a explosive T3 NO and some insane top deck win(because you can just fetch the dryad arbor and cast it), noble hierarchs also helps to avoid mana screw due to wastelands but make your manabase more green.Here you can take an aggro hole or a control hole looking your hand and thinking about the matchup.

My advice is: play Supreme Blue if your meta has many Merfolks , Goblins and Edicts + Perish Sideboard decks. If your meta aggro decks are Zoo and there aren't too much Aggro Loams then you can play with NO Countertop.

[lordofthepit]

From my point of view and based on my extensive tests.

Supreme Blue has Ponders + Firespout and usually 2 basic lands(islands) while NO Contertop has Noble Hierarch + NO + Progenitus, so Supreme Blue is more controlish than NO builds , ponders can help you to set up CB + Top as soon as possible and dig for answers , since you play 4 colors your mana base is more fragile (you run only 2 basic lands) , Firespout + RWM + Trygon make you counter 3cc spells easier than other builds , and Firespout is there to deal with Zoo , Goblins and Merfolks which are "Problematic matchups for Cb decks" it is a one side only wrath of god , so Supreme Blue is the anti-aggro Counterbalance list.

In NO Countertop you cut some lands and ponders to fit basic lands (basic forest , islands and sometimes plains) and noble hierarchs which gives you more acelleration and help you to go offensive/explosive sometimes( T2 RWM or CB with daze proof).No + Pro gives you some 4cc spells which is a weakness in SupremeBlue lists, also it provides a explosive T3 NO and some insane top deck win(because you can just fetch the dryad arbor and cast it), noble hierarchs also helps to avoid mana screw due to wastelands but make your manabase more green.Here you can take an aggro hole or a control hole looking your hand and thinking about the matchup.

My advice is: play Supreme Blue if your meta has many Merfolks , Goblins and Edicts + Perish Sideboard decks. If your meta aggro decks are Zoo and there aren't too much Aggro Loams then you can play with NO Countertop.

Thanks for the breakdown; I was going to ask that too.

What about the Nassif or Probasco builds? More specifically, what are the strengths and weakness of those relative to Supreme Blue or NO Pro? Are these decks outdated, or are there still reasons to run those versions?

[Atog]

Thanks for the breakdown; I was going to ask that too.

What about the Nassif or Probasco builds? More specifically, what are the strengths and weakness of those relative to Supreme Blue or NO Pro? Are these decks outdated, or are there still reasons to run those versions?

I think they both have same problem. Both of them was designed for counter/top mirror or similar. Also they are too slow now then there is running zoo, merfolk and goblins. There is couple reasons to now play, IF you don't have meta where everyone plays countertop or other aggro-control decks.

Shimi:

You said that Supreme Blue is better against merfolks and goblins. Yes, firespout is nice to have, but there is also other side. Merfolks play wasteland and even Stifle to make sure you won't be resolving firespout easily. Goblins have their own cards, like wasteland and rishadan port to shutdown your Volcanic islands. Firespout isn't even enought often against goblins, they can recover too easily if they don't play dummy. But if you have luck and your manabase won't bet raped by merfolk or goblins then firespout will shine (just if you can remove or counter enought lords to make it effective..).

[sauce]

Playing Counterbalance when the meta is filled w/ Merfolk and Gobos is a mistake.
You should not play any variation of this deck in that meta.

[Shimi]

I think they both have same problem. Both of them was designed for counter/top mirror or similar. Also they are too slow now then there is running zoo, merfolk and goblins. There is couple reasons to now play, IF you don't have meta where everyone plays countertop or other aggro-control decks.

Shimi:

You said that Supreme Blue is better against merfolks and goblins. Yes, firespout is nice to have, but there is also other side. Merfolks play wasteland and even Stifle to make sure you won't be resolving firespout easily. Goblins have their own cards, like wasteland and rishadan port to shutdown your Volcanic islands. Firespout isn't even enought often against goblins, they can recover too easily if they don't play dummy. But if you have luck and your manabase won't bet raped by merfolk or goblins then firespout will shine (just if you can remove or counter enought lords to make it effective..).

Yes you are right, that is why Noble Hierarch shines in NO builds , they are a manafixing non-wasteable and can't be tapped by rishada port.My point of view is that Firespout(3cc , and red can be fetchable if they have wastes and rishada , or you just pray that merfolk does not have stifle at the moment) is a way better that solving a NO(4cc and needs a green dude and 2 green mana) to get a Progenitus(or RWM against goblins) and get smashed by a horde of 2/2 or some 3/3 unblockeable merfolks.This conclusions are based on my playtesting( which I'm 35-65 against merfolks and 40-60 against Rb Goblins with NO build, while with SupremeBlue I'm 45-55 against merfolks and 40-60 against goblins) as you can see Firespout just helps if you have RWM or Goyf so you make them extend and try to counter their Ringleaders and Siege-Gangs so they can't recover so easily.

About Nassif and Probasco:
I didn't test it hard so I can't say many things , but from my point of view they are too slow to fight Zoo , Merfolk and Goblins but seem excelent against other CB variants and Aggro-Control decks.

I would like to discuss about Jace , Mind The Sculptor as a MD or SB card in SupremeBlue lists , it seems very powerfull in the mirror and has a 4cc to fight NO and other relevant spells.

[Resist_Temptation]

I have been playing Supreme Blue for only a week, but I find that any decks that run wastelands seem to demolish me. My list runs 1 basic plains, island, and forest. If someone could post a supreme blue list, or tell me what is not normal in my list it would be greatly appreciated.

1 island
1 forest
1 plains
2 volcanic island
3 tundra
3 tropical island
4 flooded strand
4 misty rainforest

4 rhox war monk
4 goyf
2 trygon predator

3 firespout
4 stp
4 CB
4 Top
4 daze
4 Fow
3 Ponder
1 echoing truth
4 brainstorm

Sb
1 firespout
3 ravenous trap
3 tormod's crypt
3 krosan grip
3 pithing needle
2 wrath of god

I took this list from deckcheck, but from listening to the discussion on the difference between the deck types i think that this list is not a normal supreme blue.

[4zureSky]

I have been playing Supreme Blue for only a week, but I find that any decks that run wastelands seem to demolish me. My list runs 1 basic plains, island, and forest. If someone could post a supreme blue list, or tell me what is not normal in my list it would be greatly appreciated.

1 island
1 forest
1 plains
2 volcanic island
3 tundra
3 tropical island
4 flooded strand
4 misty rainforest

4 rhox war monk
4 goyf
2 trygon predator

3 firespout
4 stp
4 CB
4 Top
4 daze
4 Fow
3 Ponder
1 echoing truth
4 brainstorm

Sb
1 firespout
3 ravenous trap
3 tormod's crypt
3 krosan grip
3 pithing needle
2 wrath of god

I took this list from deckcheck, but from listening to the discussion on the difference between the deck types i think that this list is not a normal supreme blue.

I would take out one forest and add in another island since we have more blue spells than green. And the opponent proli doesn't have enough wastelands to waste everyone of our dual lands unless its recurring.. I would also take out 2 trygon predators and 1 echoing truth for maybe an elspeth or two. I would add in trygon unless your meta has a need for artifacts/enchantment hate. The elspeths will give the RWM and gofys the ability to fly and maybe attack directly :) Other than that your list seems pretty solid.

[Malakai]

I have been playing Supreme Blue for only a week, but I find that any decks that run wastelands seem to demolish me. My list runs 1 basic plains, island, and forest. If someone could post a supreme blue list, or tell me what is not normal in my list it would be greatly appreciated.

1 island
1 forest
1 plains
2 volcanic island
3 tundra
3 tropical island
4 flooded strand
4 misty rainforest

4 rhox war monk
4 goyf
2 trygon predator

3 firespout
4 stp
4 CB
4 Top
4 daze
4 Fow
3 Ponder
1 echoing truth
4 brainstorm

Sb
1 firespout
3 ravenous trap
3 tormod's crypt
3 krosan grip
3 pithing needle
2 wrath of god

I took this list from deckcheck, but from listening to the discussion on the difference between the deck types i think that this list is not a normal supreme blue.

22 Lands, minimum. Also you should know exactly which lands will be hit by Wasteland, and exactly when you will be Stifled. If you can't do that when playing around those cards, you should probably hold off trying to make your own lists, or spamming this thread.


Someone asked about the different matchups of Supreme Blue versus NO CounterTop. For one: Supreme Blue basically cannot lose to Zoo.

[BantFTW]

The new list after testing:

Creatures:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
2 trygon predator
1 wall of roots (very godo against aggro and it gives you mana and something to sec for NO, I also needed a 2-drop for cb so)
1 progenitus

Spells:
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Natural Order

Lands:
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 volcanic island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

SB:
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 enlightened Tutor
2 llawan/kitchen finks (llawan wins me the game against merfolk, kitchen finks is also good but also against gobblins and zoo)
1 relic of progenitus
1 wheel of sun and moon
3 firespout
1 volcanic island
2 ghostly prison
1 canonist

Oké, one extra land is really needed in this list.
If you play only 18 lands you get sometimes 2 lands and then nothing anymore so 19 lands is perfect, really.
So I want to hear what you guys would change in this list...

[oldbsturgeon]

Wow, that is nearly on par with what I am playing.
What I did that is different is I replaced the 2nd predator with the 4th monk.
Of course the other option would be to run jotun grunt in the spot, though having another green guy that also happens to make mana is nice too.
Or if you wanted the 4th daze you could do that as well.
I just feel that the 2nd predator, albiet blue may not be the great card to have in that spot. The reasoning is that compared to the other guys that can buy you the time necessary to assembe the natural order combo, the predator easily dies, especially in the face of zoo.
Sure noble hierarch does too, but he serves his purpose when a 2nd turn monk comes on board
One of my friends even suggested a knight of the reliquary, which I could see being okay I guess, though not as good as it is in zoo.
As for my current SB I am running
3 firespout
1 volcanic island
2 krosan grip
3 submerge
3 tormod's crypt
1 karakas
2 spell pierce

[BantFTW]

okay, why 3 submerge and why the karakas?
Tell me that, oké a +4th RWM is nice but,
woudn't 2 kitchen finks be nicer.
First I played -land and -the wall of roots and 2 finks, but you really need 19 land so..

[oldbsturgeon]

Well submerge is fantastic against zoo, and countertop mirrors as well. The karakas is obviously a nod to reanimator and is there to add variety to the other hate to bring in against it.
We actually have several people that I play with that have reanimator and its nice to have that for them.
Sure I guess you could play a finks instead, its totally what you like doing. Both guys are deterrants to attacking, though in the aggro match, I would imagine you will come ahead on life with the monk.
They do take the same amount effort to kill though, block then burn spell.
Yeah as an alternate 3 drop to predator, I could go with it.

[BantFTW]

Yesterday I played the list of Louiss Restoy @Brussels.
I've gone 3-2 with alot of bad luck.
Lost against a crappy home-made gobblin deck because of mana flut 2 games...
Then second round lost against ANT wich I needed to win but he had good luck and topdecked...

Round 3 I've played against Zoo, an easy matchup.
Round 4 the same against zoo.
Round 5 I won against ant because I didn't play bad this time.

So the list is really good, if you don't have alot of bad luck and fluts.
I would really recommand this list.

[oldbsturgeon]

Would you happen to be referring to the list that top 8'd at madrid, the one with loaming shaman and other interesting choices.
It probably is okay, but the direction it takes is a bit too much for me to commit to.

[BantFTW]

I will explain you the fact that he doens't play qasali pridemage.
Louis Restoy also didn't played them first but he wanted some mainboard removel so he played them.
Ruben Gonzalez doesn't play them (like I do) because you almost never sacrife it.
It wins you races but like I sayd, think of it how many times you sac it...
Like one time a tournement or something^^

Trygon Predator flies and does the same and is a 2/3 that blocks better against zoo..
But this is just my opinnion, I would maybe play 1/2 if I would go with countertop becasue of the manacost 2

[Deady]

Well, the first thing that strikes me when looking at both top 8 lists from Madrid is that both players seem to play Ponder as a 2/3-off...that's the first thing I'd like to know more of. Why would you play Ponder if you already play Brainstorm and some other forms of library manipulation (top/sylvan library etc.)?

Lluis Restoy finished 6th (without cb/top), Ruben Gonzales finished 5th (cb/top). This is the link: http://www.deckcheck.net/print.php?event=Grand+Prix+Madrid+2010+-+Top8+Decks

Looking at both lists I like Rubens list better as it contains less 1-offs and 2-offs, but I don't understand why it doesn't run Pridemage; I'd play Qasali over Tygron anytime (as a 3-off or 4-off).

I also don't quite understand the choice for Windswept Heaths over Flooded Strands...some seem to run a mix between these, some play a 3-off Flooded Strand (with 4x Misty Rainforest) without any Heaths.

All these things make it pretty confusing and difficult to get a good view on the deck. I'm building a list myself right now, but there are too many questions about the card choices. Can somebody school me on this? I did my homework well, but I just don't get some of the card choices. Why Predator over Pridemage? Why Ponder when we already play Brainstorm? Why 3x Top and 3x Daze instead of 4x Top and 4x Daze -2 Ponder? 3x Top and 4x CB seems not logical to me. Why Windswept Heath over Flooded Strand? 7 fetches and one extra basic island (or dual) or 8 fetches?

BantFTW: deleted and edited. This is the post.

[oldbsturgeon]

I am certainly no expert with this deck but the import aspect for me when using the predator is its presene in the cmc 3 slot. While I only have 1 in my main, it combined with 4 monks gives me 5 3 drops main, usually enough to stop cards with counterbalance and top.
Pridemage is awesome, but usually more awesome in a bant aggro type of deck. If you were against running a plains in the deck, it certainly means you should have one in it then.
Also for me, I am doing the firespout side thing, and I already lose the hierarchs so I really dont need to lose even more men when I play the spell.

[Eddy Wally]

Yesterday I participated in the 32 man tournament in the Outpost in Brussels with a Bant countertop-NO-PRO deck. I won the first three rounds, ID'd twide, and lost in the quarter finals in the mirror match. For those who are interested, here is the list.

MD:
1 plains
1 forest
1 island
1 dryad arbor
4 misty rainforest
1 windswept heath
4 tropical island
3 tundra
3 savanna

3 sensei's divining top
4 swords to plowshares
4 brainstorm
3 daze
4 force of will
2 ponder
3 counterbalance
3 natural order
4 noble hierarch
4 tarmogoyf
3 qasali pridemage
3 rhox war monk
1 progenitus

SB:
4 tormod's crypt
2 elspeth
1 counterbalance
1 threads of disloyalty
2 krosan grip
3 meddling mage
1 qasali pridemage
1 empyrial archangel

First round I played against a newbie who had a soldier deck (it was as bad as it sounds, although the opponent was an extremely nice guy so I won't say anything bad about the deck or the player). I swapped progenitus with the angel after sideboarding, and cruised to an easy victory.

Second round, I played against a UBGr countertop build. Progenitus was more than he could handle.

Third round was against a GW survival deck. I got lucky here. I had double goyf on the table in the third and final game, he had Genesis in the graveyard and sporefrog active to create a lock, but that cost him almost all his mana every turn. I drew two StP in a row, and plowed the frog twice in his discard step so I could attack for the kill (he sacked it, but was open to my charge in my own turn twice in a row).

Until thirty minutes before the tournament, I had elspeth main and all 4 cb in the side. I'll keep the 3-1 distribution for the future, and will drop elspeth altogether on account of it being too slow to be of pivotal use (it's good, but a sideboard card should be REALLY good when you draw it). I'll probably put path to exile in its place in the future. Meddling mage was quite useless, and I'll swap them for a fourth rhox and two jittes in the future.

This was the first time I played the deck, I think that if I get more experience with it it should prove to be quite good in the future.

EDIT: perhaps this post belongs in the NO-PRO thread. If that is the case, I request that it be moved there.

[Shimi]

Eddy , could you just explain why only 5 fetchs and give us some details about the mirror match you lost.I'm interested in the mirror match cause I think it could be my weakness.

[Eddy Wally]

Eddy , could you just explain why only 5 fetchs and give us some details about the mirror match you lost.I'm interested in the mirror match cause I think it could be my weakness.

Five was a little low. I never had manaproblems, but often I found myself thinking I'd be pretty damn vulnerable to wasteland now. It was the first time I played the tournament, I will swap a savanna for a second windswepth. Originally, the counterbalanca was in the side, so hitting UU on turn two wasn't as important. When I changed my decklist right before the tournament, I didn't have the cards with me to alter the manabase, so I took my chances. It worked out.

In the mirror, he won the die roll and got his combo out faster than I did. I made sure to mention I was playing the combo too, then swapped it out (three NO, progenitus and the arbor) for a pridemage, a fourth counterbalanca and three meddling mages. In the second game my opening hand has three rhoxes, so I keep it. One is sent farming, but I beat him down to seven with the other two before progenitus hits there (I had planned to name natural order with the meddling mage, but that was too late now. He only has progenitus for a while when I draw a meddling mage. I play it, naming swords to plowshares. My top told me I had a second mage coming, but I needed to draw something else (I forget what). The plan was to name tarmogoyf with the second mage, but because I had to draw that other card, the mage comes one turn too late when he had already played a goyf. The boardposition had switched to the point that my 27 life vs his 7 was no longer a stalemate. It didn't help that he saw his countertop combo, and I didn't see mine, in game two.

EDIT: my mistake, I put in the threads instead of the fourth pridemage for game two. Didn't see it in the game though.

[Malakai]

Why Ponder?

Because Brainstorm isn't any good without a shuffle effect. Sometimes you want to dig, and the flexibility of Ponder is important. It acts as a top activation or a shuffle effect, and that kind of versatility is valuable. You should never be casting Brainstorm unless you have a shuffle effect, or if you're countering something with Counterbalance. If you brainstorm on turn one or turn two and you don't have a shuffler, your opponent knows that you are either looking for land, or bad.

[Deady]

Eddy:

Have you ever considered cutting the Savannah's for 2/3 more fetch lands? 3x Savannah is at least 2 two much.

Malakai:

So Ponder as a 2-off/3-off is a better choice in general than 4x Daze, 4x Counterbalance, 4x Sensei's Divining top?

[BantFTW]

Never go 4 daze, and always go 4cb and 4top, always.
It's the best thing you have in your deck so...
Why would you play less if you really need it??
And ponder 2x is good for other draw and get's your goyf also higher...

Also, why would you play 4 daze.
You don't need 4, just go 3. Because it's a bad card lategame^^

[Deady]

BantFTW: thanks, I'll try a 2/3 split between Ponder and Daze (not sure what to cut for the 2nd Ponder though).

[Eddy Wally]

Eddy:

Have you ever considered cutting the Savannah's for 2/3 more fetch lands? 3x Savannah is at least 2 two much.

Malakai:

So Ponder as a 2-off/3-off is a better choice in general than 4x Daze, 4x Counterbalance, 4x Sensei's Divining top?

You're not the first person to make this suggestion. In my build for next week, I had already cut the number down to two, and replaced it with an extra fetchland. You think two is still too much?

[Deady]

Yes, I think 7 fetches are the minimum, so I suggest to cut another Savannah for the 7th fetch. Tropical islands, Tundra's, basic lands and Noble Hierarchs give you the mana you need. Most lists don't even run Savannah, but I guess one copy can't hurt.

[Shimi]

Here is my tested mana base:

1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor


Also play with 4 SdT and 4CB and 3 Daze at least.

[Eddy Wally]

OK, I'll cut it down to one Savannah and try it out. Thanks for the suggestion.

[BantFTW]

@Deady:
If you do play 2 ponders, only play 18 land (with one dryad arbor) because you don't need really more lol...

Atm I'm testing rafiq, it's so a good card.
If they can't destroy it they're death^^

The list:

4 x Noble Hierarch
4 x Rhox War Monk
4 x Tarmogoyf
2 x Qasali Pridemage (maybe replacing those with 2 ponder, still I never sacrefice them and the exalted I got enough so^^)
1 x Progenitus
1 x Trygon Predator
1 x Rafiq of the Many

3 x Daze
4 x Force of Will
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Swords to Plowshares
4 x Counterbalance
3 x Natural Order
4 x Sensei's Divining Top

4 x Tropical Island
3 x Tundra
3 x Flooded Strand
4 x Misty Rainforest
1 x Plains
1 x Forest
1 x Island
1 x Dryad Arbor

SB//
2 dueling grounds
2 krosan grip
1 empyrial archangel
3 canonist/gaddock teeg
2 spell pierce
2 kitchen finks
1 wheel of sun and moon
1 relic of progenitus
1 tormod's crypt

If you got anything to say about the list, shoot it then.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

If you got anything to say about the list, shoot it then.

So you're playing 61 cards then? Did you just decide to throw in Rafiq and not take anything out? Anyways, seems like Rafiq is a win-more type of card. He's difficult to cast and doesn't just win the game like Progenitus does. It doesn't give the disruption that Qasali/Predator provide, or the lifelink that War Monk does. He's also fragile as a 3/3. I really don't see any point of including him.

I'm wondering about the board, Dueling Grounds helps against what? And Kitchen Finks seems overkill with 4 MD War Monks. Also you wouldn't want Teeg because he shuts off Natural Orders and FoWs, not that I think Canonist is needed either because our combo m/u is already very good.

[BantFTW]

I don't know against what combo players that you play, but we got the best teams of combo-players in the world here in the Netherlands...
And they get true a counterbalance lol...
counterbalance is good but not really, really good. It"s not enough.

I got so many problems against gobblins so that's why the dueling grouns and kitchen finks are.
Also, rafiq is really good and let's you win games to.

okay, against zoo he's really bad and aggainst goblins sometimes to slow but against other decks who don't have removal if I cast it,
I attack with a 10/x RWM or something and also if they kill rafiq, no problem, still I've got my RWM^^
against some decls you just side them out because it's only a 3/3, but test it, it's really good.
And why would rafiq be difficult to cast? If you can cast a RWM easy then a rafiq to lol.

[Deady]

BantFTW: How do you like Rafiq? You could go -1 Rafiq, +1 Qasali, but then you're still running 61 cards...Is Trygon Predator really that needed for the 5th 3 cmc-spell?

Your creature base would look like this:

(17)

4 x Noble Hierarch
4 x Rhox War Monk
4 x Tarmogoyf
3 x Qasali Pridemage
1 x Progenitus
1 x Trygon Predator

I think Qasali needs to be at least a 3-off. Together with Trygon you'll have four ways to kill artifacts/enchantments (next to counterbalance and other disruption). Even if you don't see a lot of artifacts/enchantments, then Qasali still rocks with his exalted feature and the fact that it only requires 2 mana to bring him in.

[BantFTW]

I don't like qasali, probably at the tournement I woudn't even play it lol^^...
I'm playing those or ponders.
And trygon predator is insane good and I don't remove rafiq because if you test it it's insane good so.
Just test it and you'll see.
going to play a tournement and some legacy testing now.

[bokepa]

Since Jace, the Mindscultor was printed i tryied to fit it in CB shell. I finally manage to do it with good results. As Im no expert I open myself to flaming and suggestions.

Lands
2 Windsteaph Heaths
3 Flooded Strands
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Islands
2 Islands
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Academy ruins

Creatures
4 NH
4 Tarmo
3 RWM
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Trygon Predator

Spells
4 FoW
3 Daze
4 CB
4 SDT
4 Brainstorm
4 Stop
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Jace, the Mind Scultor

SB idea (tweak as meta requires, you can even put NO combo and confuse your opponents as the creature base supports it)
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Tormods Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Dueling Grounds
2 Pithing Needle
2 EE
3 Spell pierce

The decks performs just like a normal CB top deck exchanging the flashy 10/10 for a control suite that stops merfolks, goblins, zoo while being useful in the control matchup thanks to Jace.

The deck runs like a normal CB deck with a Stop button. If you are taking too much damage drop a Ensnaring Bridge and wait for Jace. Even if they manage to remove bridge you will have the field full of very though creatures while stopping them.

Remember that exalted triggers when you are already attacking. So it's easy to start your turn. Draw top, use jace brainstorm so you will have 3-4 cards at hand, attack with creatures, cast top, drop land/cast a spell. Enemy can only attack with creatures with power 1-2 while you can attack with your full army except for tarmo.

It supposed lategame you will control your draws so you dont end with more than 1-2 cards in hand. Dead cards are bad.

Academy ruins is there for recurring EE post board and recover some ensnaring bridges MD. I also want to include Aether Spellbomb for bounce recursion or EE MD but not sure about removing NH.

NH makes you manabase more stable so you can cast easily all your spells.

Fore me 2 Qasali, 1 Trygon are the perfect suite for anti artifact/ench.

More ideas for sideboard:
In fact Relic and tormod have been nearly useless. I've got ensaring + jace for reanimator and dueling grounds + EE for dredge maybe i havent faced much decks with gy strategies.

Clone (yes you readed it good, its tarmo the best creature on the field or its destroy target legendary permament which nowadays is not that bad).

Gurzigost (maybe this should be maindecked, why it cannot cost 1 less)

Trinket Mage with Aether Spellbomb and Basilisk Collar

[BantFTW]

@Bokapa

I played also first with plainswalkers (1 elspeth and 1 jace, in aggro 2 each) , they're good but u prefer just much more a progenitus because it let's u win against decks just of the progenitus, the plainswalkers don't always win that...

Like against rock, zoo, if you sideboard combo get's it really hard with archangel...
okay, it ain't really bad...

Then your sideboard, something I like :P
But, on wioch targets you put the pithing needle on?
Let me know this against: dredge, merfs, zoo, gobblins, rock, bant, cb-bant,ant
Also, why would you play EE? play then kitchen finks or PTE because the EE's are to slow against zoo/gobbs/merfs mostly^^

tyvm

[Shimi]

Hi guys, I know that Progenitus CB variants are very pop nowdays but I'm always discussing about SupremeBlue version and how it can be improved in today metagame, so a friend come with the following idea:

Plumeveil

All SupremeBlue lands could produce Blue so :wu::wu::wu: = :3: , and it is basically a instant removal that stops other 3/3 and 3/4 guys , it flys which is relevant against some matchs(cause our guys can't block flyers), of course StP can be used to removal it but then it is oneless StP for your RWM and Goyfs.
Is this card good or viable?And what should be cut for it?And what are the best ways to fight Progenitus CB , may be some Jace and other 4cc cards?

Thx for any help.

[4zureSky]

I play Supreme Blue since my meta has goblins, merfolks, and a bit of elf. I was looking for some creature like that, but I want it to be able to attack and not just block. I am looking at the new angel that came out called Linvala. Heres the link http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/tcg/products/riseoftheeldrazi/rdfgh8rvhs/EN/0033_MTGROE_EN_LR.jpg

[jeanbathez]

Hi guys, I know that Progenitus CB variants are very pop nowdays but I'm always discussing about SupremeBlue version and how it can be improved in today metagame, so a friend come with the following idea:

Plumeveil

All SupremeBlue lands could produce Blue so :wu::wu::wu: = :3: , and it is basically a instant removal that stops other 3/3 and 3/4 guys , it flys which is relevant against some matchs(cause our guys can't block flyers), of course StP can be used to removal it but then it is oneless StP for your RWM and Goyfs.
Is this card good or viable?And what should be cut for it?And what are the best ways to fight Progenitus CB , may be some Jace and other 4cc cards?

Thx for any help.

I don't like creatures/walls in supreme Blue who can not attack (like posted above), i testet different cards like new jace : which i love atm, i think every counterTopdeck not playing NO should at least play it as a 1of, it wins games, knocks opponents out of the game, searches cards.. it has so many options...

I also tested a pair of trinket mage with 1 EE, 1 Needle main...

[Malakai]

Plumveil is nowhere approaching playable in Legacy.

[aTn]

Hi guys, I know that Progenitus CB variants are very pop nowdays but I'm always discussing about SupremeBlue version and how it can be improved in today metagame, so a friend come with the following idea:

Plumeveil

All SupremeBlue lands could produce Blue so :wu::wu::wu: = :3: , and it is basically a instant removal that stops other 3/3 and 3/4 guys , it flys which is relevant against some matchs(cause our guys can't block flyers), of course StP can be used to removal it but then it is oneless StP for your RWM and Goyfs.
Is this card good or viable?And what should be cut for it?And what are the best ways to fight Progenitus CB , may be some Jace and other 4cc cards?

Thx for any help.

How does Plumeveil answer Islandwalk (i.e. Merfolk)?

Progenitus can be managed (in UGW S.U.) with many cards (Llawan C.E., Wash Out, etc.).

[Fuzzy]

How does Plumeveil answer Islandwalk (i.e. Merfolk)?

It can't. But if you manage a way to deal with LoA, its a house. If you do it during combat, all other Folks are now chump attacking.

If everything fails, you still has Firespout.

[aTn]

It can't.

It was a rhetorical question ;)


But if you manage a way to deal with LoA, its a house. If you do it during combat, all other Folks are now chump attacking.

Don't want to be a dick, but it sounds like a bad plan IMO... sorry... I'd rather play Kitchen Finks (if I'm forced to play another 3-drop, which I'm not).

[nodahero]

Kitchen Finks is not really any better against Merfolk...

The Finks gets you a whole 2 life in the scenario involving LoA which is equivalent to zero because two life matters less than 5% of the time.

However when there is no LoA Plumveil will always give you a tactical advantage. Flash is typically more relevant than 2 life.

Esepcially in a control deck AKA a deck that HATES to tap out on their turn.

[DragoFireheart]

Kitchen Finks is not really any better against Merfolk...

The Finks gets you a whole 2 life in the scenario involving LoA which is equivalent to zero because two life matters less than 5% of the time.

However when there is no LoA Plumveil will always give you a tactical advantage. Flash is typically more relevant than 2 life.

Esepcially in a control deck AKA a deck that HATES to tap out on their turn.



Plumveil can't attack. I see little reason to even consider it when it could be a dead draw.

[aTn]

Kitchen Finks is not really any better against Merfolk...

The Finks gets you a whole 2 life in the scenario involving LoA which is equivalent to zero because two life matters less than 5% of the time.

However when there is no LoA Plumveil will always give you a tactical advantage. Flash is typically more relevant than 2 life.

Esepcially in a control deck AKA a deck that HATES to tap out on their turn.

If you consider the plan that he stated, i.e. getting rid of LOA to cast Plumeveil, I'd prefer K.F. in that scenario. I'd also prefer K.F. vs. Zoo...

That being said, I think K.F. and Plumeveil are not that good vs. Merfolk (assuming you're playing a Supreme Blue variant) and I don't play either in Supreme Blue.

[Fuzzy]

Plumveil can't attack. I see little reason to even consider it when it could be a dead draw.


All SupremeBlue lands could produce Blue so :wu::wu::wu: = :3: , and it is basically a instant removal that stops other 3/3 and 3/4 guys , it flys which is relevant against some matchs(cause our guys can't block flyers), of course StP can be used to removal it but then it is oneless StP for your RWM and Goyfs.

Thanks for reading the original idea.

[DragoFireheart]

Thanks for reading the original idea.

I read the original comment and I still think it's a sub-optimal card.What is it you are trying to stop?


Zoo? They will burn you out and won't stop the initial assault from the cat/apes/etc.

Dredge? It won't bother them.

Goblins? Piledriver can ignore it, or goblins can amass a force to simply crush you.

Merfolk? The wall can't stop islandwalkers.

Reanimator? Too small for chumping.

It won't stop other Tarmogoyfs since they can easily grow in size. I fail to see how this card can help out Counter-top.

[nodahero]

Double Post... Apparently I cannot delete.

[nodahero]

You fail to see because you ignore the original debate and assume worst case and not realistically.

The question is whether Plumveil is a valid solution to Aggro. To determine this we need some type of a benchmark. The only proposed benchmark thus far is Kitchen Finks.

If you go ahead and do the matchup anaylsis between the two you will see that Plumveil wins MORE than Kitchen Finks.

If you would like me to walk you through to my conclusion I will gladly although I think you will be able to see that once you take into account the actual situation.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Plumeveil isn't green for Natural Order, which is very relevant against aggro decks. It also can't attack, and even though the debate is strictly about a creature counting for removal, it still can't finish the game. That's a large strike against it, especially for the board positions where you are ahead or have sufficient control. Especially in Supreme Blue, it's very possible that you clear Zoo's board and then are stuck with a defender.

The concept of Plume is decent, but it is a very narrow strategy for any card in your deck. Sure it plays defense well, but you eventually do need offense to win the game, and having a clock against decks that can re stabilize due to sheer redundancy in threats is important. Zoo also has burn, which was mentioned. Kitchen Finks is better because it gains life right away and can take out half of their creatures in combat, then come back for more life and an extra block.

Also, persist should not be overlooked. Perish and sacrifice cards have been on the rise recently, and having a recurring creature is very good against these strategies. Against more burn oriented Zoo decks (Sligh), it's better to gain life and leave behind a blocker they really don't want to mess with than to play a blocker that they'll still swing into because it really is only a wall to get around. Against any stax or pox decks (Or The Gate) persist is quite good.

[Malakai]

No.

You don't get to make suggestions when you've played the deck in a single playtest session and a couple REL-1 tournaments. That does not qualify you to question established card choices and card ratios, let alone introduce rogue suggestions. It's great that you're excited, but no one wants to be bothered with your pet cards or your fond memories of the kitchen table. The point of this thread is to discover the optimal decklists and play-strategies for the various metagames; uninformed arguments do nothing but hinder this effort.

Too many people on The Source just run around posting their decklists or off-the-wall ideas without explanation or the results of testing. This behavior is useless. It saturates the forum with useless chaff. Competitive Magic is not an easy game, and learning or developing a deck is not a task for the lazy; please either put forth the effort, or don't post at all. I find it unfortunate that the forum moderators don't have the time (understandably) to nip these things in the bud.

If I sound like an ass (very probably), look at it another way. Every time you make yourself look foolish by suggesting something that isn't viable at all, you decrease the chances that anyone is going to take you seriously in the future. Look at Cavius; he's banned and every year The Source has a holiday to mock his memory.

------------

I suppose, since I was the first to respond to the Plumveil suggestion, I should have been more didactic. As such, here goes:
Plumveil is awful as removal. It costs three. "Too much" is a massive understatement. The fact that it sticks around is irrelevant, since it doesn't. Tarmogoyf runs it over. Merfolk either island-walks past you or just doesn't give a shit. Zoo, at worst case, gives you a 2-for-1, and then still retains card advantage because they don't have dead cards (Noblie Hierarchs, or lands, depending on build).

The concept of casting it against Merfolk tends to be ridiculous. You have to manage to fetch out triple non-green mana through Wasteland, Stifle, and Daze hate. Your green cards are going to look very awkward. You might argue that Firespout is good against Merfolk, and imply that Plumveil will be as well, but this comparison makes no sense. Firespout wipes their board without touching yours. Firespout's mana cost doesn't stop you from casting all of your other spells, so that you can actually have time to set up the super-clasm.

If you're recommending it for a sideboard card, virtually every option is better.

[DragoFireheart]

You fail to see because you ignore the original debate and assume worst case and not realistically.

The question is whether Plumveil is a valid solution to Aggro. To determine this we need some type of a benchmark. The only proposed benchmark thus far is Kitchen Finks.

If you go ahead and do the matchup anaylsis between the two you will see that Plumveil wins MORE than Kitchen Finks.

If you would like me to walk you through to my conclusion I will gladly although I think you will be able to see that once you take into account the actual situation.

Malakai explained it well.

In the matchups where it would help, it doesn't. Let me reiterate:

Plumveil is terrible as removal. Even Vindicate, which is one of the better removal spells, is still somewhat slow due to the 3CMC. Plumveil is far worse as removal due to it's cost. If it's removal you want, Path is superior.

Zoo will either double burn it or if they achieved enough damage on you, alpha strike. The best way to fight zoo decks is life gain so you can stabilzie, which is why Rhox War Monk is run.

Plumveil does nothing to Merfolk since they can Islandwalk. Firespout is vastly superior, or having more removal for their lords is better.

Goblins can ignore it for the most part since it's too slow to stop early lackeys, won't stop a horde of goblins and even piledriver doesn't care about it.

Tarmogoyf has no issues outsizing the Plumfail.


Can your conclusion answer all of those issues?

[BantFTW]

I (mostly) always win aggainst aggro because I've got 4 RWM main.
And after side it's mostly not a problem, extra PTE and also 2-3 (depends on where I play) dueling ground.
Dueling grounds makes you just win against those decks^^
Only gobblins can be really hard because they go much faster then other decks.
How I win: just go the nuts :P

And plumveil ain't good enough, I would rather have a finks...
Finks kills 2 creatures and returns and gives you life.

[nodahero]

...I'm always discussing about SupremeBlue version and how it can be improved in today metagame, so a friend come with the following idea:

Plumeveil

All SupremeBlue lands could produce Blue so :wu::wu::wu: = :3: , and it is basically a instant removal that stops other 3/3 and 3/4 guys , it flys which is relevant against some matchs(cause our guys can't block flyers), of course StP can be used to removal it but then it is oneless StP for your RWM and Goyfs.
Is this card good or viable?
Thx for any help.

I am not saying that Plumeveil is the end all be all creature. I am merely suggesting that in a creature heavy format... he may have merit. I realize that he cannot stop Goyf. Few creatures however can.

This is really more of a question on the ability to play Plumeveil as a defense tactic. Perhaps Shimi would prefer to keep the deck rolling slower and go for the long game and disallow his opponents to win the next 2? Not the best move but it is a play style preference occasionally.

[sauce]

Point #1: How can Plumeveil even compete w/ the likes of V.Clique at the same mana cost?
Point #2: Why are people still talking about Plumeveil.

[Shimi]

Hi everyone, I posted about Plumveil because one friend asked me to do that while we were discussing about SupremeBlue lists, I belived in almost everything Malakai said (except the green mana problem) but I still wanted to see others opinion.
So , if I think Plumveil is not good enought to fit in SupremeBlue list why did I posted it?
That's the answer:


Every time you make yourself look foolish by suggesting something that isn't viable at all, you decrease the chances that anyone is going to take you seriously in the future. Look at Cavius; he's banned and every year The Source has a holiday to mock his memory.

People who want to discuss but are not "famous" or don't have much presence in topics are afraid of this type of thought and not receive some feedback.Malakai share my point of view about Plumveil but I disagree from this part and wish people could explain the reasons without marking them on "Foolish suggesting users list".


Plumeveil isn't green for Natural Orderi
The discussion was about SupremeBlue list, which does not run Natural Order, and I see Kitchen Finks much better than Plumveil too.

Thx to everyone , if someone want to discuss about Plumveil or another idea please do it, but with some arguments , metagames and play test(if it is possible).

[FoulQ]

Ok, we just made an entire page dedicated to god damn PLUMEVEIL. This could honestly be the worst suggestion I've ever seen on the source, and I've seen Goblin Gardener.

Everyone, go cry yourselves to sleep. We just won the award for worst thread ever on the internet.

[jeanbathez]

Thx to everyone , if someone want to discuss about Plumveil or another idea please do it, but with some arguments , metagames and play test(if it is possible).

I think know i got what you meant, i should have read it better, will try so next time ;-)

But i must admit in my post i talked also about the Trinket Mage package, which i use in my supreme list to solve some of the problems.
My package contains : 2 Trinket Mages, 1 Needle, 1 EE (sometimes also Academy Ruins) and its working very good for me. I prefer it over Plumeveil, because it helps in lot of matches where i think Plumeveil doesn't (but i must admit i didnt tested it atm).

I also wanted to talk about at least 1 new Jace in the supreme lists, I'am very satisfied with him atm, or did i overview some posts/discussion in the last pages ?

[DragoFireheart]

Lets change the direction of this awful turn of events:

Calcite Snapper


I was going through the MUC topic and saw this guy. He's not a great choice for NO/Pro decks, but I think for Supreme Blue decks that want a way to fight aggro but also want to try and cut back on colors could try this guy. In theory, Supreme blue decks could cut out white if they really wanted to or simply have white as a lighter splash.

- He has a big butt of 4, allowing you to chump 3 power or lower creatures with ease. He can also survive Firespouts.

- He has Shroud, which prevents removal from getting rid of ala Swords or Zoo double-burning him.

- He deals four damage when you drop a land, giving him a clock.

- He can be pitched to Force of Will. Also, being one color means he can easily be cast through nonsense like Ports and Wastelands.

[sauce]

you should start a thread w/ the plumeveil guy in cavius the great's part of the forums.
/done

[Malakai]

Lets change the direction of this awful turn of events:
Calcite Snapper
I was going through the MUC topic and saw this guy. He's not a great choice for NO/Pro decks, but I think for Supreme Blue decks that want a way to fight aggro but also want to try and cut back on colors could try this guy. In theory, Supreme blue decks could cut out white if they really wanted to or simply have white as a lighter splash.

Supreme Blue already has a ridiculously good matchup against Zoo, and this card does nothing against Merfolk, or Goblins.


People who want to discuss but are not "famous" or don't have much presence in topics are afraid of this type of thought and not receive some feedback.Malakai share my point of view about Plumveil but I disagree from this part and wish people could explain the reasons without marking them on "Foolish suggesting users list".
If you'll note, I responded directly after his Plumveil post to say it wasn't viable. The conversation should have ended there.

[DragoFireheart]

What does this deck do in the event that Reanimator get an Iona in play naming white and we lack counters (or enough counters) to stop it?

Do you know of any non-white removal spells that could be used?

[nodahero]

Aether Spellbomb if you pack trinket mage is OK. Otherwise any form of blue bounce would suffice.

[whienot]

What does this deck do in the event that Reanimator get an Iona in play naming white and we lack counters (or enough counters) to stop it?

Do you know of any non-white removal spells that could be used?

Curfew is good if you can handle the tempo loss.

[Lego]

If you'll note, I responded directly after his Plumveil post to say it wasn't viable. The conversation should have ended there.

Your response was: "Plumveil is nowhere approaching playable in Legacy." The problem that Shimi had with this post (As an aside, I agree with him) is that it had no justification at all. We were simply supposed to accept your blanket statement as true. Based on what? Your overwhelming knowledge of the format?

Why is your word the ultimate, end-all response? Shimi was simply expressing his opinion that he thought The Source is/should be a place where people can come to discuss options for decks, provide feedback for each other, and develop the best possible deck. You've expressed your opinion that you do not believe this to be the purpose of The Source. But unless the Moderators decide to side with you, and only allow what they decide to be "appropriate content," then Shimi will continue to have every right to use The Source for his intended purpose. Who do you, or anyone else here, think you are, to call his posts "useless" or label him "foolish" because he asked for some input, or provided some ideas in an attempt to make the deck better?

I say props to Shimi for attempting (and succeeding in!) a bit of [healthy] discussion and slops to you for squashing innovation and insulting perfectly intelligent fellow players and forumgoers.

[Shimi]

Your response was: "Plumveil is nowhere approaching playable in Legacy." The problem that Shimi had with this post (As an aside, I agree with him) is that it had no justification at all. We were simply supposed to accept your blanket statement as true. Based on what? Your overwhelming knowledge of the format?

Why is your word the ultimate, end-all response? Shimi was simply expressing his opinion that he thought The Source is/should be a place where people can come to discuss options for decks, provide feedback for each other, and develop the best possible deck. You've expressed your opinion that you do not believe this to be the purpose of The Source. But unless the Moderators decide to side with you, and only allow what they decide to be "appropriate content," then Shimi will continue to have every right to use The Source for his intended purpose. Who do you, or anyone else here, think you are, to call his posts "useless" or label him "foolish" because he asked for some input, or provided some ideas in an attempt to make the deck better?

I say props to Shimi for attempting (and succeeding in!) a bit of [healthy] discussion and slops to you for squashing innovation and insulting perfectly intelligent fellow players and forumgoers.

Thx Lego.


What does this deck do in the event that Reanimator get an Iona in play naming white and we lack counters (or enough counters) to stop it?

Do you know of any non-white removal spells that could be used?

I never lost a match to reanimator with Counterbalance Decks and I think we don't need a non-white or slow removal just because of tis matchup.
You should have mull to a decent hand to fight reanimator( in my Countertop Progenitus I have spell pierce from side to help) but if it is a Game 1 and you keep a decent hand and they go off T2 or T3 you should try to race then with your Goyf or RWM(if it landed before Iona and counting that the reanimator player lost 9-10 life due to fetch + reanimate).In Progenitus builds you can try a fast Progenitus to race them.Remeber that sometimes 2 Goyf stalls a Iona or a Inkwell and that you must becareful with their bounce spells.

[4zureSky]

So what about Linvala, the Keeper of Silence? She's a flyer with a null rod effect for creatures. It sounds good on paper and all but she could be removed easily with creature removal spells.. I can't seem to find any other creatures fit for Supreme Blue and Plumveil isn't something I am looking for.

[Malakai]

Your response was: "Plumveil is nowhere approaching playable in Legacy." The problem that Shimi had with this post (As an aside, I agree with him) is that it had no justification at all. We were simply supposed to accept your blanket statement as true. Based on what? Your overwhelming knowledge of the format?

Why is your word the ultimate, end-all response? Shimi was simply expressing his opinion that he thought The Source is/should be a place where people can come to discuss options for decks, provide feedback for each other, and develop the best possible deck. You've expressed your opinion that you do not believe this to be the purpose of The Source. But unless the Moderators decide to side with you, and only allow what they decide to be "appropriate content," then Shimi will continue to have every right to use The Source for his intended purpose. Who do you, or anyone else here, think you are, to call his posts "useless" or label him "foolish" because he asked for some input, or provided some ideas in an attempt to make the deck better?

I say props to Shimi for attempting (and succeeding in!) a bit of [healthy] discussion and slops to you for squashing innovation and insulting perfectly intelligent fellow players and forumgoers.

I already pointed out my mistake, and provided justification. As far as foolish, I was referring to the half dozen or so responses that came after, that shouldn't have. There's nothing wrong with making suggestions; there is something wrong with entertaining those suggestions and thereby misinforming both the person who suggested it, and anyone else who might've in their stead.

[Lego]

I already pointed out my mistake, and provided justification. As far as foolish, I was referring to the half dozen or so responses that came after, that shouldn't have. There's nothing wrong with making suggestions; there is something wrong with entertaining those suggestions and thereby misinforming both the person who suggested it, and anyone else who might've in their stead.

This I will agree with! And if we take the time to address the reasoning, we educate not only the person who made the suggestion, but I think also ourselves sometimes.

Moving on with the discussion!

[chokin]

So what about Linvala, the Keeper of Silence? She's a flyer with a null rod effect for creatures. It sounds good on paper and all but she could be removed easily with creature removal spells.. I can't seem to find any other creatures fit for Supreme Blue and Plumveil isn't something I am looking for.

4 mana with double white? I'm having problems coming up with a good list of creatures that have abilities that get shut off by it. Qasali Pridemage is about all I can think of that's really nice to "needle"...and maybe Grim Lavamancer. Elves is probably most hurt by it. I could see it having a little bit of use against UW Tempo IF you can generate the mana to drop her and they have no counters.

The point I'm trying to hit here is that most creatures that are good rely on creatures that have passive or triggered abilities or none at all. You're better off running Pithing Needle to drop it earlier, have it immune to creature removal, hit non-creatures, not be restricted by the double white against decks that pack Wasteland.

Do you mind posting your list? I know you were looking for another creature for Supreme Blue, and I'm just not sure what you want from it. Maybe Vendilion Clique, which can be a pseudo-discard or pseudo-cantrip creature that flies. Or Sower of Tempation.

[aTn]

What does this deck do in the event that Reanimator get an Iona in play naming white and we lack counters (or enough counters) to stop it?

Do you know of any non-white removal spells that could be used?

This is also a relevant question vs. Bant Survival.

Some people have opted to play MD bounce (see for example http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=31856) in the form of Jace TMS and chain of Vapor maindeck.

Post-board, some have decided to side-in Wash Out (or Hibernation, which is weaker because less polyvalent and prone to cause screw-ups, read tempo loss, IMO) or Sower of T..

Hope this helps...

P.S.: I agree that this thread has gone down the drain during the last year... sadface...

[chokin]

This is also a relevant question vs. Bant Survival.

Some people have opted to play MD bounce (see for example http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=31856) in the form of Jace TMS and chain of Vapor maindeck.

Post-board, some have decided to side-in Wash Out (or Hibernation, which is weaker because less polyvalent and prone to cause screw-ups, read tempo loss, IMO) or Sower of T..

Hope this helps...

P.S.: I agree that this thread has gone down the drain during the last year... sadface...

Regarding Jace, isn't 4 mana a little bit high for a removal spell against a deck that pumps out Iona by turn 1-2? I know it's not always a guarantee that they reanimate by then, but if they do, you have until their turn 4 or 5 before you're dead. And they have counters for your counters and your answer is an untutorable singleton.

Chain of Vapor is a much faster answer, but it's also an untutorable answer.

It's kind of funny to me, because adding CoV and JTMS reminds me a little bit of how some Tempo Thresh decks run 2 bounce spells. It's just really random.

[Malakai]

Tempo Thresh running bounce spells makes pretty good sense. Those two bounce spells are usually enough to remove a creature or some random permanent so that the thresh player can either keep their opponent off mana to cast it, counter it, or just attack for the win. Bounce, however, gets much worse if your opponent is allowed to just re-cast whatever you bounced.

----

As for Vendillion Clique, I've found it to be not-so-good in Supreme Blue. The problem is that the Clique is an inherently offensive creature, so its evasion and high power-to-toughness ratio end up being mostly wasted in a deck trying to stop the bleeding. The creature shines in a deck like Tempo Thresh, as all of its abilities and stats are in line with that deck's game plan. Unfortunately, I don't really think there is a card that fits does what you want in that slot any better. The solution, I've found, is change the maindeck in such a way as to eliminate that slot entirely.

[Brizentine Empire]

Do you mind posting your list? I know you were looking for another creature for Supreme Blue, and I'm just not sure what you want from it. Maybe Vendilion Clique, which can be a pseudo-discard or pseudo-cantrip creature that flies. Or Sower of Tempation.

I've played Supreme Blue since Gencon of last year, and I play 2 Sower of Temptation in the Mainboard. He's great in the countertop mirrors, as he often gets by Counterblance and swings an bad board position into your favor, not to mention he is also a great answer for Iona. The Reanimator/Survival player almost has to name white since we play swords, then Sower comes in. He's been awesome in so many MUs, plus he's a 4cc for Counterbalance (and I don't currently have a Jace).

[Malakai]

Has anyone tested maindeck Control Magic over maindeck Sowers? I have the suspicion that the aura is better overall, as it dodges all forms of removal. I feel too often the Sower ends up being ineffectual, as they just swords/path/burn it out.

[BantFTW]

But the problem, alot of decks are playing qasali atm, so I think sower is better because you've got 2 beasts and it's a creature^^
Okay against decks like zoo they suck but yeah...

[aTn]

Here's what I can think of to answer reanimated fatties at the moment.

Targeted bounce (e.g. Chain of vapor, Jace TMS);
Non-targeted bounce (e.g. Curfew, Lawan C.E., Hibernation, Wash Out);
Targeted control of creature (e.g. Sower of T.)
Edit effects (e.g. Wing Shards)

All have their pros-cons; for example, targeted answers don't deal with shroud fatties (obviously).

Making your choice based on polyvalence of the SB option, i.e. if it'll be useful in other MUs, might prove to be a good idea.


Regarding Jace, isn't 4 mana a little bit high for a removal spell against a deck that pumps out Iona by turn 1-2?

I've played MD Jace TMS and it's a potential solution for when their initial attempt at reanimation fails (i.e. gets countered).

It's good in conjunction with 1 x Chain of Vapor or another MD bounce spell.

Jace TMS also gives you a waaay better MU vs. lands.dec, which seems to creep its ugly head more and more in Top8s these days...

That being said, it's definitely a metagame call.

[Legacy]

@Malakai
I have been using 2x Control Magic in the side for my non-counter top decks with much success. Control Magic is more resilient then Sower of Temptation. However, since the nature of this thread is using CB I would opt to use Sower over Control Magic and use it in the main. CB can protect it and worse case it is a 2/2 with flying. In short, use control magic in the side for no one wants dead cards. Sower can be used in the main because it can at least swing for 2 and CB give the protection required for it not to be "countered" at a later time (ie burned out/removed).

@aTn
If you can get behind the WW of wing shards i think you will find it to be the best option. Hits progenitus and shroud reanimator targets. Usefeul against Zoo. They will sometimes burn or path then swing with team. Goblins play lords first then swing same with merfolk all netting you 2-1's. Not to mention if you can brainstorm first too. Even canadian thresh will try to get threshhold then swing in with their shroud goose and lose them. I would use them in conjuction with washout or sower/control magic. Noble Hierarch would really help with the casting cost of UU and WW.

[DragoFireheart]

I once saw someone attempting to use Elspeth, Knight-Errant in the 4CMC slots.

Did anyone ever test her in this deck?

[FoulQ]

I once saw someone attempting to use Elspeth, Knight-Errant in the 4CMC slots.

Did anyone ever test her in this deck?

UGH I wish people would use the search function. This is exactly how threads get derailed, when certain cards are brought up again and again. I know the search engine doesn't go back past the forum switch (still?), but it still has plenty of info from that point forward. I searched for elspeth and came up with three pages of posts. Here are a couple of them:


When I started playing Supreme Blue I ran Elspeth over Natural Order. I personally found her too easily removeable to creature swarm decks (merfolk, zoo, goblins) and that the deck lacked a true finisher. ...I guess if your meta isn't infested with merfolk, dredge, zoo or goblins, Elspeth might be good.


I don't like elspeth at all. I also don't believe you need extra finishers if you already have goyfs and war monks. If you don't want to run the NO package try cryptic command in the 4cc slot. A friend of mine ran a u/g/w list with cryptics and he said they were fantastic. I've never tested it since I the uuu is too hard to get in my ugb list since I run 4 basics and wastelands.


I really don't think double-colored cards belong in 4-color counterTop - which is why I stick with either my own version of UWGR or play UWG w. NO.


The reason WHY I posted my list is pretty easy to explain and I think I already said it in my post. I believe that there is ONE list that is thé best in your metagame. In my metagame, I believe we all share the same metagame, Elspeth, Knight Errant is superior to NO/Prog.
Let me give some arguments:

Elspeth is:
hard to kill (only vindicate can kill it)
makes your clock faster
can make infinitie 1/1 blockers
kills your opponent Elspeth, Knight Errant (something we can consider to happen atleast once)
less vunerable to agro
makes all of your creatures so much better (especially Rhox War Monk)

Natural order can be stopped more easier by destroying the creature he or she wants to sacrifice. Elspeth doesn't require a creature on the board. It's broken enough without.

I think the reason why people play Progenitus is because it's a 10/10 beast. Something they think is cool to have. But is it in fact the best choice? I don't think so.


I've been playing the Supreme Blue + Progenitus build for the last few weeks, and you may be right to a degree about people just liking putting a 10/10 into play. I mean, the majority of the reason I took the deck to AU instead of my trusty Zoo deck was because I wanted to put progenitus in play... ;p but while I respect the power of Elspeth, I feel like she serves a different function than NO does. While Elspeth can provide a very large advantage with less set up, she does not end the game as quickly or as definitively as Progenitus does. She can be killed by opposing burn and creature rushes, too, which is a serious concern. You can't play her in the face of an enemy who is currently ahead by more than a little. Progenitus, though, since he is on his own so powerful, can pull you out of terrible board positions as long as you still have ~5 or so life or a chumper or two to hold the fort while he does his work. It's the opponent's complete inability to do shit about him once he's resolved that makes him such an asset.

I dunno, that's just my take on the matter. Elspeth's definitely good, and I don't blame anyone for running her; I just prefer NO.


Cenarius,

I'm a little confused as to why you take it for granted that the deck needs a "finisher" at all. Tarmogoyf and friends normally do a pretty good job by themselves from my experiences. I'm not saying that the deck is "better" with or without a finisher; I'm merely trying to suggest that it's something that still bears consideration. Reviewing tournament results and decklists it would appear that my confusion is warranted because decks are doing well with and without the 4-drop "finishers."

That being said, Elspeth and Prog have their pros and cons for sure. Elspeth is relatively tough to kill for a lot of decks, but most decks have no way at all to kill progenitus. Progenitus provides a faster clock, pitches to force of wil and can flat-out steal games that you'd otherwise lose, but is pretty awkward when drawn (until it's BS'd away). Progenitus demands a bare minimum number of green dudes, and it opens you up to being 2-for-1'd if NO gets countered. Really, the question that needs to be answered is: "What issue am I addressing by adding these finishers? Which games are they winning for me which my deck wouldn't already win? What am I sacrificing by making room for these cards?" I believe that the answers to those questions, which are certainly dependent on your metagame, will lead you to decide which of the two, if any, is appropriate for your deck.

Of course, the other valid point to consider is the prescence of 4-drops in your curve for countertop, which I believe is the true reason that these slots are appealing. If that is the real driver behind this decision, then other strong 4-drops ought to factor into your analysis as well, such as Sower of Temptation, for example.

So please people, use the search function once in awhile, especially if you think "man I got this killer card from invasion and the whole merfolk thread is gonna love me for revealing it to their blind eyes"

[Freelancerqc]

as anyone tried jenera,asura of war? 2-3. i saw someone use that card and i did well on the tourny. personnally i think its mana intensive but i will test it to see it

[4zureSky]

If we can pay for rhox war monk we can definitely pay for Jenara. And actually Jenara is exactly the card I was looking for in my countertop deck. It has flying and it can survive even though I firespout due to the pumping ability she has. Thank you so much! :D

[DragoFireheart]

UGH I wish people would use the search function. This is exactly how threads get derailed, when certain cards are brought up again and again. I know the search engine doesn't go back past the forum switch (still?), but it still has plenty of info from that point forward. I searched for elspeth and came up with three pages of posts. Here are a couple of them:



So please people, use the search function once in awhile, especially if you think "man I got this killer card from invasion and the whole merfolk thread is gonna love me for revealing it to their blind eyes



And how long ago were they? A year ago? 6 months? I already knew about those posts. I was asking for recent tests of the card, not tests from a year ago. Think about that before you jump down someone throat and belittle them.

[PhanTom_lt]

Elspeth is still positively testing for me as a one-of in MB. I will probably cut the 2nd one from my SB. I've made a decision to run 2 'walkers, the second one being JMS. Elspeth almost singlehandedly wins your mirror or mirror-like matchups. Is good vs Stax or Lands or Landstill. I tend to SB her out vs quick aggro, possibly leaving her vs Zoo if I'm on the play.

[Malakai]

In what matchups is Jace better than Elspeth? I see Jace only being good in the same matchups as Elspeth, and pretty terrible against aggro. I suppose he's slightly better against combo, but generally if you get to four mana there you're probably winning.

[DragoFireheart]

In what matchups is Jace better than Elspeth? I see Jace only being good in the same matchups as Elspeth, and pretty terrible against aggro. I suppose he's slightly better against combo, but generally if you get to four mana there you're probably winning.

Jace is better against Reanimator decks I suppose.

I see Elspeth as being superior overall.

[BantFTW]

I've played this: 2 elspeth and 2 jace...
It's really good because it let's you win games but I prefer against some decks NOPRO (it let's you win against zoo and stuff so)
So I would command 1 each

[Cavius The Great]

What happened to Mystic Enforcer? Why isn't anyone running that guy anymore?

[TOGITwill]

Goyf got printed? Rhox War Monk is better? Lack of relevant black creatures?

[Cavius The Great]

Goyf got printed? Rhox War Monk is better? Lack of relevant black creatures?

Goyf and War monk don't have flying bro...

[TOGITwill]

Both creatures cost less and RWM stabilizes the goyf sligh/zoo match up.

Those two > Mystic Enforcer.

Who cares if your 4 cost dude can go up top when you have fast aggro to worry about?

[Shimi]

About Jace TMS , it is awsome as a 1of from my SB, I won a champ yesterday and it really owned the games against Enchantress and BG Builds.Enchantress need to put some pressure or they are dead in 6 turns(let the draw lands and unuseaful cards), against BG if the board it clean, the need a Pulse or Vindicate(BGW) fast because Jace TMS gives you card advantage to fight deed and discard effects or find your lock while they try to kill you Jace, it also bounce their guys 3 times so your Goyf can pass through their defenses.

PS: Cavius is awsome too!!He wins the game by it self.

[Eddy Wally]

If you're using the countertop combo in a natural order bant deck, when do you side it out?