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bokepa
12-23-2010, 09:45 AM
Anyone got a recent list of a Bant CounterTop without the Red splash at hand?

This is what im using:

2 x Flooded Strand
3 x Windsteaph Heath
4 x Misty Rainforest
3 x Tropical Island
3 x Tundra
1 x Island
1 x Forest
1 x Plains
1 x Dryad Arbor

4 x Noble Hierarch
4 x Tarmogoyf
3 x Rhox War Monk
1 x Trygon Predator
1 x Progenitus

4 x FoW
3 x Daze
4 x CB
4 x SDT
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Swords to Plowshares
3 x Natural Order
2 x Story Circle (Testing)

SB (Testing):

2 x Dueling Grounds
1 x Maze of ith
1 x Academy Ruins
1 x Knight of the Reliquary
1 x Empyrial Archangel
2 x Krosan Grip
3 x Spell pierce
3 x Tormods Crypt
1 x EE

The 2 Story Circle main:

Pros:

They prevent Trygon Predators from owning you.
They make your CB better attracting removal.
They stop opposing Progenitus.
They give you time to resolve your own Progenitus.
They make opposing Piledrivers, Terravores, Countryside Crushers, Knight of the Reliquary and Coralhelm Commanders less scary.
Make opposing burn easier to deal with.
Prevents Jitte and Swords from getting out of control.
Its a soft lock with Dueling Grounds post side.

Cons:
Its a dead card vs Blue and Black control (AKA BUG JaceStill) wich is a bad matchup.
You need a lot of white mana for it to work properly
Normal sided cards against us like: Pithing Needle, Krosan Grip are good against it.


The testing synergies of SB i think are evident:

Dueling Grounds owns Tribal and lets you soft-lock with Empyrial, Maze of ith or Story.

Knight is there as extra body and a tutor for Maze of ith / Academy Ruins. I use EE and Tormods becouse they are recovered with Academy

Spell pierce vs combo and mirror

Krosan because its neccesary

Empyirial vs Zoo, burn, sligh...

AggroSteve
12-26-2010, 10:05 AM
hi guys, lately i have been toying around with a UGR countertop-list using the Grove of the Burnwillows+Punishing Fire combo, but no Jace TMS (haven't got the money)

here is my list, sideboard is still under construction but obviously for both MD and SB i will take every suggestion under consideration, and i would also love some constructive criticism, since it allways helps developing the deck further

here is my list, so (still have only got the shocklands, but will get real duals as fast as possible)

2x island
1x mountain
1x forest
4x grove of the burnwillows
4x steam vents
2x breeding pool
3x scalding tarn
3x misty rainforest

4x tarmogoyf
4x loarscale coatl
2x vendilion clique

4x senseis divining top
4x counterbalance
4x brainstorm
2x ponder
2x spell snare
3x counterspell
4x force of will
4x lighting bolt
4x punishing fire

first of all, what do you think of the list, second thing what could you see being improved and how, what cards (shocklands aside) would you cut for what
from testings punishing fire feels quite fine against any kind of weenie and tribal, but a little manaintensive, and loarscale coatl gets fat quite fast, which is the only reason it is in the deck, since otherwise i can get a bit of problems with opposing fat, due to the lack of StoP

what do you think on counterspell vs. daze which counter would be more suited here in your opinion?

ZeroStride
12-26-2010, 11:44 AM
First you calculate the chance of not drawing the card and then you have to substract that chance from 1 (or 100%)
You have to keep in mind that with each card you draw, when opening your hand of 7, the number of cards left in your deck decreases and the chances of drawing the card become higher.
This is correct, for the math bit above that quote, you want to be using this, though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergeometric_distribution and you will probably want a refresher on Binomial Distribution (req. for solving Hypergeometric): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_distribution

In this case:
'n' is the number of cards drawn, 7.
'N' is the number of cards in your library, I am assuming 60.
'm' is the number of times the desired card occurs in N, assuming 4.
'k' is the number of desired successes, so 1.

So in the average case (60 card deck, 4-of-card, 7-card opening hand) you have a 39.9% chance to see at least one instance of the desired card. Please note the 'at least' part.

Barbwire
12-26-2010, 12:32 PM
I chose counterspell over Daze for my build (which is a page or two back). I like daze, but late game its just not as affective as a hard counter, and you can't always count on the CBT to take care of every spell.

Rune
12-26-2010, 01:09 PM
hi guys, lately i have been toying around with a UGR countertop-list using the Grove of the Burnwillows+Punishing Fire combo, but no Jace TMS (haven't got the money)

here is my list, sideboard is still under construction but obviously for both MD and SB i will take every suggestion under consideration, and i would also love some constructive criticism, since it allways helps developing the deck further


I don't think the Grove/Fire combo fits very well in CounterTop since both "combos" use a a lot of mana. Punishing Fire + Grove of the Burnwillows is pretty awesome, but I think it's better in a deck like Next Level Threshold where you don't have to spend a lot of mana on topping each turn. The NLT decks can also protect the Grove with Stifle. For Ugr decks I also think that Jace2 is a better way of answering fatties than by playing Lorescale Coatl.

Valtrix
12-26-2010, 02:13 PM
Honestly, if you're going for Grove/fire, then you may want to consider changing your manabase a bit to support knight of the reliquary over lorescale coatl. He can help you fetch your combo better and is frankly just much much stronger than lorescare coatl in general. Then you could also replace the bolts with swords. One thing I notice is that you're going to have a very tough time dealing with anything with more than two toughness.

As such, that's part of why I'm also not convinced that grove/fire is worthwhile in this deck. 2 damage is not a whole lot in legacy. You can some guys, but it's really not enough against a lot of the threats in legacy. Sure, it's awesome against goblins, can hit half of zoo's creatures, and might even get there against merfolk if you're lucky (though they might just play lords smartly). This seems pretty narrow to me. In addition the combo is fairly slow as a finisher, and it also gives you an awkward manabase. A R/G land is usually not what countertop wants. Sometimes even just drawing your basics when you need :u::u: sucks.

Malakai
12-27-2010, 01:13 AM
The question is a simple one:

Within a countertop shell, is the Grove of the Burnwillows - Punishing Fire combo fast/powerful enough to be better than the alternatives (e.g. Firespout) against Merfolk and Goblins?


---


I am doubtful, but I have not done the testing. Note that the "countertop shell" portion is vital; quoting results from a loam or zoo shell is a waste of time.

AggroSteve
12-27-2010, 09:39 AM
not even i think i have done enough testings, but burnwillows/p.fire combo gives us at least another way to generate CA, and it works fine against any tribal deck and thanks to the recursion you would not even be forced to have counterbalance out against these decks, so i think it is acceptable in ways of manaintensivness... at least against tribal

though the main problems with the list i posted are probably that even with on color down the manabase is just as shaky as before and i actually give my opponents more outs/ways to kill me simply because i do not have swords to plowshares

but lets compare firespout for instance to punishing fire.... firespout is awesome at burning out tribals, but goblins actually are able to recover quite fast post-firespout, and merfolk sometimes have to many lords out at the times you find a spout
punishing fire would be way more mana intensive... but you can still use your countertop to counter various things and still get punishing fire back to your hands, and if opponent did not play anything just burn out a lord/goblin at end of turn .... the main problem with this is deciding what is more important to get rid of

maybe you guys are just right that p.fire is not well placed in a countertop-shell..... still i will do some testings and maybe come up with a good list^^
(but loarscale coatls will be removed from the list, its only stupidly big and does nothing, i prefer clique after testing both)

PS: i would still love if you guys would help me get some more ideas.... lately 3 creatures caught my eye that could be used instead of coatl

trygon predator
troll ascetic
omnath, locus of mana

sorry i do not know how to link pictures

Valtrix
12-27-2010, 11:56 AM
not even i think i have done enough testings, but burnwillows/p.fire combo gives us at least another way to generate CA, and it works fine against any tribal deck and thanks to the recursion you would not even be forced to have counterbalance out against these decks, so i think it is acceptable in ways of manaintensivness... at least against tribal


That's the thing though....I'm not sure that combo that's going to take up a lot of your MD slots is worth playing just because it's "good vs. tribal", since I think it hogs up space against a lot of other things and makes your manabase real awkward. I'll admit that I've considered it against goblins in my build because that matchup can be very hard, but I think that goblins is going to decline in the metagame yet again. In terms of other decks though, firespout is pretty awesome against merfolk and zoo (probably the only other two decks that this fire combo is probably useful against), but I think in most cases I'd just want the firespouts to hit wild nacatls, leveled coralhelms, or multiple lords.

I think there's also strength to firespout in the sense that it forces your opponent to slow down their assault, whereas fire does not do so. Just having the threat of wrathing their board can buy you a lot of much needed time sometimes. Furthermore, firespout has usefulness against destroying empty the warren tokens, and let me tell you that firespout has saved me several times against combo this way...

To me it just seems that firespout is more reliable over the fire combo without any of the (manabase) drawbacks of trying to support the fire combo.


sorry i do not know how to link pictures

Put "cards" and "/cards" around what you want to have linked, only use brackets [ & ] instead of the quotes I used. The nice part is that if you put that command just around a list of a bunch of cards it will link all of them and be smart to figure out what are actually cards! This is useful when linking a whole decklist.

Koby
12-27-2010, 01:05 PM
Whatever happened to Baseruption variant of Counterbalance/Top?

Baseruption Thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?6504-[Deck]-Baseruption-(aYb-Aggro-Control))

Is it still viable today? If so, what can we update? If not, what has invalidated its strategy?

Rune
12-27-2010, 06:43 PM
Whatever happened to Baseruption variant of Counterbalance/Top?

Baseruption Thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?6504-[Deck]-Baseruption-(aYb-Aggro-Control))

Is it still viable today? If so, what can we update? If not, what has invalidated its strategy?

I think the problem is that Confidant makes your deck suck against all kinds of aggro. He's also pretty bad against dedicated control/Landstill because he gets Snare'd and STP'd all day long. So, basically he's only good against combo, but you don't really need any help in that matchup.

Vendilion Clique, on the other hand, is a much better creature in CounterTop at the moment because it's insane vs control and combo, but still a decent card in the aggro match. You also have to splash red in order to consistently beat Merfolk. The red splash also helps a lot vs Goblins and Zoo, and having acceess to REB/Pyroblast is really nice.

The black splash really does nothing to stop this aggro metagame from tearing your head off. Now that Zoo is likely to make a comeback, I think it's an even less viable choice.

Valtrix
12-27-2010, 07:19 PM
I think kikoo it absolutely right, well mostly. Black offers little except dark confidant in this type of deck, since other colors do everything else only better. He's generally not very good against aggro, especially zoo, and in fact prevents you from effectively running firespout in general (Too many colors, would die to it), which is becoming increasingly relevant in the metagame. He shines most against aggro-control, as he can often swing the game in your favor from card advantage since you'll do a lot of 1-for-1 trading, but against more dedicated control will probably be one of your few targets for their removal.

Don't get me wrong. Drawing cards can be ridiculous. However, the other problem that he suffers from is that he can't really win the game for you at a measly 2 power. If a goyf attacks for a few turns you probably win, whereas a dark confidant could staredown a single creature, draw you a few cards, but still make you lose even if it's removed 4 turns later.

Now, if you're not running confidant, why are you running black? And if you're not running black, what are you playing that's different from "standard" countertop these days?

Malakai
12-27-2010, 07:47 PM
Whatever happened to Baseruption variant of Counterbalance/Top?

Baseruption Thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?6504-[Deck]-Baseruption-(aYb-Aggro-Control))

Is it still viable today? If so, what can we update? If not, what has invalidated its strategy?

Whether it's been invalidated or not, it's clearly a very different strategy from modern countertop. Unless some has some specific idea borne of it, such as e.g. "Finkel is actually good", I don't think it's going to bring anything to the discussion in this thread. Granted, that particular concern doesn't stop most of the Source's users.

----

I was trying to put this lightly before: Punishing Fire combo is far too slow to be relevant against the decks it's designed to beat, and becomes especially marginal when you realize that both of those decks run Wasteland.

I understand the problem some people have with Firespout. They wrath the opponent's board, then a turn or two latter are once again in a bind. There are ways to go about this. I myself run Trinket Mages, so this allows me to use Firespout to stabilize, then go and grab an Engineered Explosives to keep them from re-establishing board position. Moreover, you haven't lived until you've resolved Firespout with a Vedalken Shackles in play.

Malakai
12-27-2010, 07:53 PM
Personally, I don't think Vendillion Clique is as good as people suggest. The hand disruption is greatly marginalized against both aggro and control-centric decks by giving them a replacement card, and the fact that it's "good against combo" is hardly relevant in a deck that already trounces combo the vast, vast majority of the time. The countertop vs. combo matchup is one of the most one-sided matchups in the format.

Valtrix
12-27-2010, 08:02 PM
I am with you Malakai about Vendillion Clique not being that good. The thing about legacy is that almost all cards people are running are going to be pretty good, so getting rid of "their best" card merely gives them another card that is likely to be good. This is especially prevalent against aggro where each of their creatures is almost equally scary. Sure, it can be really useful sometimes to get rid of a good card turns 3-6. After that the ability loses a lot of relevance (even if you can target yourself) and it's just a 3/1 flyer which isn't all that scary. Personally I'd rather run knight of the reliquary to end the game quickly (and potentially have some land shenanigans), vedalken shackles, or even a couple rhox war monks to shore up the various aggro matchups.

I can see it's usefulness, but it constantly surprises me how many lists I see it in, so does somebody mind elaborating a bit on why so many lists run it?

AggroSteve
12-27-2010, 08:11 PM
i was thinking of vedalken shackles as well, since i find this card just awesome specially after a firespout

lately one specific CMC 2 creature caught my eye

first time trying to link a card, hopefully it works^^

Ashling the Pilgrim

it is actually a creature we can pump every end of turn and if necessary it could possibly becomes a giant firespout for lategame allthough it would require quite much red mana, what do you guys think about him?, .... well this is just brainstorming but i could see him fitting in at least a bit^^ or maybe its just wishfull thinking^^

yeah, i did finally get how to link a card^^ (but took a while actually :P)

@ rhow war monk: i used him previously, but that was in a Bant-color-list, he survives firespout which is a plus, and the lifegain comes in handy as well, but the reason i discarded him were his manarequirements (mainly) and him being quite small compared to other non-evasive creatures like goyf and knight, if i havent got a spout he even gets smaller than merfolks creatures, another bit negative side to him is that together with spout the deck gets more and more 3-drops and less 2-drops which makes counterbalance less effective........ actually maybe i am going to try him again maybe as 2-off or maybe if he works fine as 3-drop even though his mana requirements are still a problem in the 4color build

Malakai
12-27-2010, 08:26 PM
Ashling was too slow for standard.

Rune
12-27-2010, 09:00 PM
I am with you Malakai about Vendillion Clique not being that good. The thing about legacy is that almost all cards people are running are going to be pretty good, so getting rid of "their best" card merely gives them another card that is likely to be good. This is especially prevalent against aggro where each of their creatures is almost equally scary. Sure, it can be really useful sometimes to get rid of a good card turns 3-6. After that the ability loses a lot of relevance (even if you can target yourself) and it's just a 3/1 flyer which isn't all that scary. Personally I'd rather run knight of the reliquary to end the game quickly (and potentially have some land shenanigans), vedalken shackles, or even a couple rhox war monks to shore up the various aggro matchups.

I can see it's usefulness, but it constantly surprises me how many lists I see it in, so does somebody mind elaborating a bit on why so many lists run it?


I run it mostly for the blue vs blue (the aggro-control mirror or the Landstill decks), but it's fine against anything. It's just a devastating card in the blue matchups. If you don't play it, the Landstill MU is close to unwinnable in my experience, but I think it gets pretty easy once you play 2-3 Cliques and some hard counters to go with it. You can play it at the end of their turn and untap into Jace, or you can play it in response to Standstill. Either way, they will be dead. It also makes Counterspell stronger (if you run it) because you can play draw-go forever with top in play.

Goblin players will be sad when they tap their Vial@4 and you take the Ringleader out of their hand in response. It's also decent against Zoo because it can take out their biggest threat before they get a chance to play it (KotR, or sometimes Elspeth) and it will leave a blocker behind that trades with Nacatl.

It's also a hoser against the Show & Tell / Sneak Attack decks. These new combo decks dodge Counterbalance very well, so we can't expect them to just auto-fold to us if we don't have any other resistance than CB+Top and some FoWs.

Overall, I think it's a pretty awesome and versatile card. Trinket Mage and KotR are also very strong, but I think they are definitely not as strong as Clique in blue vs blue. It might just be me, but I hate getting run over by Landstill or other forms of dedicated board control, so I will always run a bunch of hard counters and no less than 3 Cliques.

Malakai
12-27-2010, 09:24 PM
You have valid points, and I think your opinion of the card is pretty spot on. The problem is a lot of people have been treating it like it's a must have or something you always want, when it's actually more of a meta-game choice against Landstill.

Nidd
12-27-2010, 09:46 PM
I am with you Malakai about Vendillion Clique not being that good. The thing about legacy is that almost all cards people are running are going to be pretty good, so getting rid of "their best" card merely gives them another card that is likely to be good. This is especially prevalent against aggro where each of their creatures is almost equally scary. Sure, it can be really useful sometimes to get rid of a good card turns 3-6. After that the ability loses a lot of relevance (even if you can target yourself) and it's just a 3/1 flyer which isn't all that scary. Personally I'd rather run knight of the reliquary to end the game quickly (and potentially have some land shenanigans), vedalken shackles, or even a couple rhox war monks to shore up the various aggro matchups.

I can see it's usefulness, but it constantly surprises me how many lists I see it in, so does somebody mind elaborating a bit on why so many lists run it?
The point is that Clique can get rid of cards you can't handle at the moment, just like Jace fateseals the stuff you can't answer away while he wins the game for you.
Clique beats for 3 a turn - while that doesn't sound like a lot, it's a clock. Plus, it has evasion and Flash and it's ability is actually relevant. What would you suggest as a substitute?

Malakai
12-27-2010, 09:52 PM
The point is that Clique can get rid of cards you can't handle at the moment, just like Jace fateseals the stuff you can't answer away while he wins the game for you.
Clique beats for 3 a turn - while that doesn't sound like a lot, it's a clock. Plus, it has evasion and Flash and it's ability is actually relevant. What would you suggest as a substitute?

I would recommend running clique against a field of non-storm combo, and control.
I would recommend against running clique against a field of aggro.
Of these, the latter is more likely in an unknown meta.

I would never run Jace, since despite considerable testing I've yet to see him help in any of the bad matchups.

Valtrix
12-27-2010, 09:57 PM
What list are you running Malakai, and what do you consider to be bad matchups? I'd assume aggro, for one.

Nidd
12-27-2010, 10:44 PM
I would recommend running clique against a field of non-storm combo, and control.
I would recommend against running clique against a field of aggro.
Of these, the latter is more likely in an unknown meta.

I would never run Jace, since despite considerable testing I've yet to see him help in any of the bad matchups.
I see where you are coming from. Jace doesn't really improve any MUs despite maybe Enchantress, but isn't he good against Control, too? Like, UWx Landstill?
I have yet to play Jace in a Legacy deck. Resolving him in Standard or Extended is always a blowout, even considering the difference between the formats it's hard to believe he isn't that good in Legacy.

Well, I'll see.

As for Clique, I've resolved her quite often, I played Bant Survival before the announcement. When it hit play, it was never bad, be it taking away Ringleaders, Jaces, Deeds, Tarmogoyfs, KotR... you get the point. The "synergy" with Counterbalance seems to make it even better.

What list are you running Malakai, and what do you consider to be bad matchups? I'd assume aggro, for one.
+1 interest.

Valtrix
12-27-2010, 10:59 PM
I see where you are coming from. Jace doesn't really improve any MUs despite maybe Enchantress, but isn't he good against Control, too? Like, UWx Landstill?

I think he improves matchups in a lot more ways than that. I appreciate most that he adds threat diversity, which always makes it awkward for your opponent to deal with him in addition to anything else you throw at them. Jace is weakest against aggro, though he can definitely be solid there too. Anytime that you've worn down an aggro deck's initial assault Jace fateseals the game away as they can no longer draw enough threats before losing. He can also do a lot at just generating tempo (even at 4cc) and card advantage by bouncing twice and then brainstorming while you try and deal with the rest of their creatures. So, he's not completely worthless against aggro, and I think he's easily supported with how countertop decks are made in general.

More importantly though is that he's just an absolute beast against most things blue (as you say Clique is good against too). Non-merfolk blue decks aren't usually running a ton of creatures, so protecting Jace becomes a lot easier. The thing is that in this matchup he's an absolute beast. The opposing blue player is going to have quite a bit of trouble dealing with him once he hits the table. And hey, he's 4cc, so he's particularly good at getting through a counterbalance and he has a ridiculous amount of synergy with counterbalance to begin with.

Besides, you need to play Jaces so that you can destroy opponent's Jace's too, right?

AggroSteve
12-28-2010, 05:52 AM
i was thinking of the blacksplash, did ever anyone try bitterblossom, since it continuously creates flying blockers, and is not that easily removed (spell snare hits it pretty well though), but if it is unanswered it will become a clock very soon as well

@ jace: i tried him but did not like him as well, the only times where he is awesome is when opponent is allready allmost locked with counterbalance, when he assures that opponent will not draw anything to break the lock, and that is actually when he wins (do not like him however)

vendilion clique actually is quite good, but as a 3-off maybe to much, since its legendary, and the ability is really only usefull against control as well (ok, occasionally good against goblins by fetching a ringleader from their hand, but thats all, and i could not see her being awesome in any other matchups, and we allready have a good combomatchup), but i have to say i like her, and her being a clock is pretty true as well, just like even pridemage counts as a clock, but clique even has evasion

i was wondering how many of you are using trinket mage, since it was named pretty often on the last 2 pages, and what targets are you using?

Alphez
12-28-2010, 11:56 AM
About the black splash: Confidant might be useless nowadays, but the splash in general seems interesting to me. In my opinion Firespout is becoming less and less relevant, as Big Zoo creatures are usually, well, very Big and Merfolk can nullify it with lords.

Black, on the other hand, offers:
- Perish (better than Spout vs. Big Zoo, useful against Bant and Progenitus in general)
- Extirpate (control, combo, VV)
- Engineered Plague (probably not as good as Spout, admittedly)

The big disadvantage is that none of these cards could be maindecked, making G1 vs. aggro really tough. Maybe with a combination of Shackles and Blossom? Dunno :\

Nidd
12-28-2010, 01:42 PM
Merfolk needs 3 lords in order to negate Firespout. Engineered Plague does jack about Merfolk.

No, seriously, if you want to play some good regular CounterTop, play UWGr.

CorpT
12-28-2010, 02:47 PM
Not running Jace and Vendillion Clique sounds like a terrible plan. Those are two of the best cards in the deck. Jace is card advantage. Clique is a clock at instant speed that flies and can remove a bad card from your hand or opponent's. I am shocked people are talking about not playing them.

Arew
12-28-2010, 03:30 PM
Clique is a clock at instant speed that flies and can remove a bad card from your hand or opponent's.

Honestly, in late game for control match-ups, returning Clique to my hand and replaying it EOT or in response to find a counter on myself has won me more than a couple games.

CorpT
12-28-2010, 03:47 PM
Honestly, in late game for control match-ups, returning Clique to my hand and replaying it EOT or in response to find a counter on myself has won me more than a couple games.

It's a subtle trick and missed a lot of times, but very powerful. I've seen him filter through hands with powerful affects before as well. Jace seems like a complete auto-include while Clique is a little lower on the pole, but dismissing him seems wrong. It's not like you have to run a lot of him. 2 is plenty.

SMR0079
12-28-2010, 03:56 PM
I predict the challenge will be to answer the diversification of aggro that is on the horizon. Affinity, BinaVine, Zoo, Junk, Goblins, Merfolk - all present slightly different challenges that make having broad enough answers available. My answer has been to run the Stiflenought package, NOPro is another option, but it seems that the more controlling Countertop builds are going to have problems.

Valtrix
12-28-2010, 04:10 PM
How exactly is stiflenaught stellar in addressing the diversified aggro decks...? Also, what is "BinaVine"?

Personally, I'm not convinced that there's going to be a huge portion of the meta to all of these aggro decks, at least now. I expect zoo and merfolk to be the big contenders (which aren't terribly difficult to beat if you prepare for it), with goblins coming up a little behind. Goblins is pretty difficult since they can grind you out, but I don't see affinity or Junk being a major meta-force at the moment. Perhaps I'm wrong on that, but we'll see...

As for Vendillion Clique...I see it being useful, but I still feel like the other 3cc cards just have more power. It might have something to do with the fact that I run intuition in my list, so there's less flexibility than most lists, but I still just want more out of Clique :/

SMR0079
12-28-2010, 05:42 PM
Stiflenought or Progentius offer a way to switch from the control role to a quick finisher. In a wide open field with numerous aggro decks, you cannot plug all of the holes which makes a finisher excellent.

BinaVine refers to the new Vengevine aggro decks, Ugb, Bg, ect. Test agasint it and Affinity (MAtt's list is the best). They are for real.

Barbwire
12-30-2010, 12:30 AM
For a quick finisher in my G2 I use Grindstone/Painters Servant, my list should be on page 87...I think. I am having a terrible time against zoo of recent and cant find a good balance of over all control v. creature specific control. I run in a monthly legacy tourny that consist of about 60% of the field being zoo. I can usually stabalize but by the time I do I can't afford to get a crappy draw. My current build is U/W, anybody have any ideas??

Nidd
12-30-2010, 06:36 AM
Splash Green play Tarmo...

No, seriously, why aren't you playing Green in the first place? Budget issues?

If you have problems against Aggro, I'd suggest Thopter Foundry, it really helps to stabilize.

Barbwire
12-30-2010, 06:48 AM
Splash Green play Tarmo...

No, seriously, why aren't you playing Green in the first place? Budget issues?

If you have problems against Aggro, I'd suggest Thopter Foundry, it really helps to stabilize.

My decklist is on page 87. I now run only 1 sword of meek and 1 thopter foundry. The thought process behind not splashing green was this, the U/G/W version appeared to be a PTQ version and I'm currently not playing in a PTQ just a monthly, I figured that the U/W would be able to handle it, But I realize now that if I am to compete in any setting with it I need to splash green, I had been thinking about it for awhile now, was just wondering if there was another way.

Barbwire
12-31-2010, 11:30 AM
Nevermind, was able to fix the problem.....now playing Landstill much better matchup against aggro.

CaBaaL
01-01-2011, 03:57 PM
hi forum, after reading all 90 pages of pure crap the only things i understanded are:
- black slash for dark cofidant is too slow,
- Vedalken Shackles is slow too
- the only thing that works vs agro is firespout so in heavy agro meta you must play supreme blue
- NO is only good vs zoo everything else have either counters or removals (or in case of goblins swarm him)
- there is no point suggesting new cards, we have to come up with the best combination of what have and is proven to be the best

so i made this list to play in a random meta and have a decent MU vs agro without red (at least for the moment)


//creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique

//instant
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

//enchantment - artifacts
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineer Explosives

//planewalkers
2 jace
2 elspeth


//land 19
1 plains
2 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Savannah
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 wind heath

//Sideboard:
2 relic of progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
3 Path to Exile
3 spell pierce
2 Umezawa's Jitte (maybe wrath of god)
1 Vendilion Clique (maybe one more path)

Ego Erasure thoughts?

bokepa
01-04-2011, 04:26 AM
hi forum, after reading all 90 pages of pure crap the only things i understanded are:
- black slash for dark cofidant is too slow
- Vedalken Shackles is slow too
- the only thing that works vs agro is firespout so in heavy agro meta you must play supreme blue
- NO is only good vs zoo everything else have either counters or removals (or in case of goblins swarm him)
- there is no point suggesting new cards, we have to come up with the best combination of what have and is proven to be the best

so i made this list to play in a random meta and have a decent MU vs agro without red (at least for the moment)



Don't trust the forums, they change their mind with every CTop deck that top's. Then they fail playing the lists or people adapt as they know em, then cry. Rinse and repeat.

About your list I haven't test it, but I don't feel the NH are neccesary without NO.

I would change this:


Substract:
4 x Noble Hierarch
1 x Enginyered Explosives
Add:
1 x Ratched Bomb
1 x Academy Ruins
1 x Sensei Divining Top
1 x Vedalken Shackles


That would leave you with 60 cards, with less aceleration/fixing to planeswalkers but better protection for them and more late game. This changes will also make your CB lock better with less irrelevants CMC 1 and more 2 and 3 and the ability to put em on top with ruins.

Tell us how it went.

Cheers

from Cairo
01-04-2011, 12:53 PM
Ego Erasure thoughts?

As one would expect, it's really good if it resolves against Merfolk and that's virtually all it's usable against. I think Llawan, Cephalid Empress is a bigger blow out though if one's going to run dedicated Merfolk hate and it dodges Spell Pierces and Curse Catchers.

Personally, I like your SB options currently listed better. Path to Exile and Umezawa's Jitte can both be quite good in that match up and they're good versus other agro decks too.

Malakai
01-04-2011, 01:54 PM
Nevermind, was able to fix the problem.....now playing Landstill much better matchup against aggro.

This is a joke, right?

Mr.Markov
01-05-2011, 07:37 PM
Knight of the reliquary is better than rhox war monk.(bigger,shuffle effect,land tutor,reb,piledriver,one more mana...)

I have recently won a big tournament with my supreme blue with knight.

Here is my list:

4 tarmo
4 knight
4 counterbalance
4 top
4 fow
4 brainstorm
2 elspeth
2 jace
1 ponder
1 counterspell
1 spell snare
2 spell pierce
4 swords
2 firespout

4 misty rainforest
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
1 scalding tarn
2 tropical island
2 tundra
2 volcanic island
1 savannah
1 island
1 maze of ith
1 karakas

sb:
2 pithing needle
3 perimeter captain
1 reb
1 pyroblast
2 krosan grip
1 elspeth
1 bojuka bog
2 firespout
1 spell pierce
1 gaea's blessing (there is a lot of painter in my meta and its good vs loam and dredge.)

This deck is very strong but has some bad match up :
Rb-gob, Ugr canadian *****, dredge, loam+waste.deck. I play a manabase who doesnt like wasteland,port,stifle.
Some match up are 50-50 :
-BGW-rock (with top-knight-bob-vindicate) : its a topdeck-battle
-UWg landstill and UBG jace-still : you should transform standstill into ideas unbound and resolve elspeth
-burn : counterbalance = win , no counterbalance = loose

My deck loose also to cards like choke and back to basics , and some stifle+waste decks.

All the others match up are good !


ask me if you want match up plans, card choices ,manabase, sideboard(in/out) explanation.

What do you think about my list ?

keys
01-05-2011, 09:27 PM
Are the Captains any good?

Mr.Markov
01-06-2011, 01:50 PM
Permimeter captain is a very good card vs gob,merfolk and naya.
Vs gob it blocs lackey , dont die to perish and you can sacrifice for Warren weinding to save your tarmo/knight.
I the merfolk match up its good because you dont have to spend remouvals against crusecatcher/silvergrill/... and it bloc also mutavault post firespout ...and shut down their aggro-tempo plan.
Vs naya its very good because they have to spend a path to exile to kill it or attac+bolt , anyway this give you time to cast an elspeth or a big knight with a safe amount of life.

keys
01-06-2011, 02:24 PM
Wouldn't Path to Exile just be a better topdeck and more versatile all around?

The list also seems about 1 land short to me ... was that ever a problem? I would replace 1 Elspeth for another land, since you already have a 2nd in the board.

Mr.Markov
01-06-2011, 10:03 PM
Path to exile is very close to permieter captain. I havent tested path much in this deck ,but i think that path to exile is better in the Naya match up and worst in the goblin match up. Because path can kill knight of the reliquary and tarmo vs naya , and captain can stop 2-3 goblin alone without giving a land(more activation of port/waste,...)

Perimeter captain is also good because it makes your opp. play a lot of creatures to overflow the wall.(and die to one of your 4 firespout =) )
With the captain you can also do beautiful plays like double blocking a tarmo with 2 wall , gaining 8 life and sword the tarmo.

I have rarely problems with my mana base , but i have to say that, most of the time ,i want to see lands when i brainstorm/ponder/top. I think that one more land can be safer. But i will never cut Elspeth since its very good in every match up (exept combo) . In my eyes the worst card of the deck is counterspell but its a 2mana card for counterbalance and a blue card for force of will. ( i have only 9 ''2mana card'' and 19 ''blue card'')

miko
01-07-2011, 03:49 AM
I'm going to give this approach to Countertop a try again:

1 Swamp
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
=20

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
=7

2 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
2 Smother
1 Ghastly Demise
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Jace the Mind Sculptor
4 Stifle
1 Rushing River
=23

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Vendilion Clique
=10

Sideboard: not fixed yet, sth. like this:
1 Thoughtseize
1 Jace
3 Relic of Progenitus / nihil spellbomb
2 Krosan Grip
2 Trygon Predator
3 Spell Pierce
2 Smother 1 Ghastly Demise alternative: 3 Pernicious Deed

What do you think? It's a revival of 2009 GenCon: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=4146
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/53c

The decks a very solid hybrid with great potential!

Malakai
01-07-2011, 01:56 PM
That's not really countertop; that's a deck with counterbalance-top in it. This thread is already straddling enough archtypes, we don't need to add more.

Nidd
01-07-2011, 07:49 PM
So, I'm going to try to control matches from now on by resolving Counterbalance (what the hell happened to me?!) and driving my opponents insane with the incredible versatility this deck brings to the table.
When everything goes according to my evil plan, I'll play this deck in a tournament in a few hours but I'm tinkering with the SB since a few days.
The expected meta is a bunch of Goblins, Merfolk, Elves, Zoo, Landstill, Enchantress, Thresh and the odd Maverick or Rock deck. Maybe 1 Dredge or so and some Storm combo (read: a diverse Meta with every archetype you can think of).

My MB is as follows:

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [DDD] Forest
1 [MI] Plains
3 [B] Tropical Island
2 [R] Tundra
2 [U] Volcanic Island
3 [IN] Island
1 [ZEN] Mountain

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage

// Spells
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [4E] Counterspell
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [SHM] Firespout

I decided to give the basic Mountain a shot as I expect lots and lots and lots of Wastelands getting tossed at me.
The GE Archmage is in there for testing reasons, as the Landstill/Enchantress players are excellent pilots and, should I do well, I'll probably face at least 1 Landstill and 1 Enchantress deck. I figured the Archmage is quite good against them.
The rest of the MB is selfexplanatory, I guess...

Now onto the SB:

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [GTW] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [TO] Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 2 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [OV] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [IN] Dueling Grounds

Path is StP #5-6, need to explain more?
Firespout #4 should be a common choice and should do great in the expected meta.
Krosan Grip adresses the Mirror and Enchantress. Should I board it in against Landstill, too, to take out Humility? I don't know whether they keep it in.
Llawan is in there because I'm freaking paranoid and I don't want to get blown out by Merfolk. However, a resolved Vial pretty much turns her into a Hibernation of some kind, which is less than stellar for such a narrow card. Am I going overboard here?
Spell Pierce should help the Mirror, Landstill, Enchantress and Thresh MUs. Also, I heard it's good against combo.
Dueling Grounds once more tries to adress Tribal, which I seem to worry a lot about. Is it too much or is Dueling Grounds really the solution?
Pyroblast should help against the Mirror, Landstill, Thresh and is pretty good against Merfolk, I heard. once again, paranoia or is Pyroblast a worthy inclusion in the SB of this deck?
Tormod's Crypt, the lonely GY hate... I figure I have enough relevant cards against the Dredge pilot (who, to be honest, isn't the best) and these 2 could help MUs like Enchantress or Rock (they shrink KotR like a champ). Unnecessary, not enough or the correct amount?

Also, got some tips for a first time pilot?

samurai_socks
01-07-2011, 08:16 PM
I'm going to give this approach to Countertop a try again:

1 Swamp
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
=20

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
=7

2 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
2 Smother
1 Ghastly Demise
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Jace the Mind Sculptor
4 Stifle
1 Rushing River
=23

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Vendilion Clique
=10

Sideboard: not fixed yet, sth. like this:
1 Thoughtseize
1 Jace
3 Relic of Progenitus / nihil spellbomb
2 Krosan Grip
2 Trygon Predator
3 Spell Pierce
2 Smother 1 Ghastly Demise alternative: 3 Pernicious Deed

What do you think? It's a revival of 2009 GenCon: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=4146
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/53c

The decks a very solid hybrid with great potential!

At the very least get Rushing River out of this deck. It should probably just be another top.

-Cheers-

Valtrix
01-07-2011, 11:12 PM
That's not really countertop; that's a deck with counterbalance-top in it. This thread is already straddling enough archtypes, we don't need to add more.

On a similar note, I would like to make a shameless plus for the Intuition Countertop thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19651-Ugwr-Intuition-CounterTop) that just got created. There was some discussion on this board awhile back, but due to the nature of the thread and the nature of intuition countertop the discussion got cut short. Since then myself and some others have been playing the deck and Mana Drain wrote a great primer to start the intuition countertop thread that I think many of the people frequenting this thread would enjoy to read.

Mana Drain
01-08-2011, 12:18 AM
When everything goes according to my evil plan, I'll play this deck in a tournament in a few hours but I'm tinkering with the SB since a few days.

decklist...

Now onto the SB:

SB...

Also, got some tips for a first time pilot?

Do you really need Mountain? You only have 3 red cards in the MD and 4 more in the SB with 2 Volcs and 8 fetches to find them. You're also only running 1 Tarn, so you can't reliably tutor for it. The Mountain should probably be another Volc. Or at least run a full set of Tarns for it.

The Glen Elandra is cool, but really, a MD card? It's terrible in over half of your expected metagame, and a one-of at that. It would be more helpful as another EE or Path in the MD. It's a fine SB card, but pretty narrow (Landstill).

The rest looks fine. I'm not a fan of Llawan, because I think she's just too little too late (4 mana). She also doesn't address Muta, who with LoA is public enemy number 1. Scaling creatures who are immune to FS, Blasts, and EE that also just happen to tap for mana are dangerous. I think she should be a third EE in the board, which is still helpful against all matchups expected and great in the mirror.

Also, I support the shameless bump above me directing you to the IntuitionCB thread. ;)

ShiftyKapree
01-08-2011, 01:18 PM
So, what do you guys plan on playing in the new meta, as far as the sideboard goes?

Tinefol
01-08-2011, 01:43 PM
Played my first post-survival-ban tournament with the following list:

4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Trygon Predator

4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Counterspell
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard:
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 Peacekeeper
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

25+ people showed up, so 5 rounds with top8.

Round 1 / Burn.
Game 1. I stabilize at 2 life through CB/Jace (no top) and a bunch of counters. He goes for a fireblast, which I force, then for a second blast, where I have to StP my freshly casted 5/5 KoTR, then he gets a third blast, and I have to StP yet another KoTR to survive. I win from there, since he has no lands and I just fateseal him out with Jace.
Game 2. I assemble CB/Top quickly and lock him out safely at 11 life.

Round 2 / BGW Pox
Game 1. Early CB/Brainstorms counters a couple of Sinkholes, and then he gets to destroy it with second copy of Vindicate (I FoW the first one). But its too late, since I already have two goyfs and a 6/6 KoTR on table and he just scoops it.
Game 2. I keep a one lander with two brainstorms, CB and other goodies. I don't get a second land for a couple of turns and just get destroyed.
Game 3. We play attrition wars for awhile, I manage to Bog away his Loam, he Vindicates my CB and Grips SDT, and some turns later its my KotR vs his KoTR + Kitchen Finks, and it isn't looking good for me. However, I topdeck SDT, find an Elspeth and flying 10/10 cutie gets through for exactsies.

Round 3. Food Chain Combo.
Game 1. I don't get any lock pieces, and opt for an aggro route, StPing some mana acceleration dudes, FoWing Food Chain and beating with Goyf and KoTR.
Game. I get the lock online and KoTR does its job rather quickly.

Round 4. D&T. I'm paired down so I have to play
Game 1. He wins the roll and begins with a vial. Such a nice hand it was with CB, Top and Counterspell. Then he drops a second Vial on turn2. Long story short, I'm flooded and get overwhelmed with vial/trigger shenigans and a bunch of equipment off two Stoneforge mystics.
Game 2. Same story, except that I manage to EE for 4 permanents and roll over with 3 goyfs.
Game 3. Since there's not much time left, I board Peacekeepers in to make sure I get at least a tie. Again, two vials for him, and I'm in a losing situation, but my Peacekeepers give me a couple of turns, and even though my opponent manages to deal with them, the game ends on turns in a tie.

Round 5. ID

Top8. Aggro loam
Game1. I manage to get a lock online after some attrition wars, but I only have 2cc on top. He resolves an Assault, shooting my Hierarchs, and has a Kor Haven online, so I need two beaters. I manage to dig for Goyf and KoTR, countering a couple of KoTRs of his alongway and my creatures work it out.
Game2. Again I get a quick lock, and now I have 2 and 3cc on top. He concedes, since he doesn't run Grips.

Top4. Split

As for S/B, it needs 2-3 Pithing Needle for Vials and maybe a second EE, though I'm not sure what to take out. Also would've been useful to run a couple of Wastelands, but alas, I guess you just can't squeeze all the goodies in one deck.

Stifle
01-10-2011, 01:20 PM
Greetings from Southern California once again.

Made top eight with 4c Countertop which you can read about here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19681-[Report]-Spinning-into-Top-Eight-like-a-true-Sensei).

keys
01-12-2011, 04:34 PM
What do you guys think of AJ Sacher's UG CounterTop Progenitus list that took 7th at SCG Kansas? It's certainly looks more stable than the popular Bant versions, but is it better? I'm interested to try it out.


1 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wall of Roots
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Progenitus
4 Brainstorm
2 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
3 Natural Order
2 Ponder
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Forest
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Terastodon
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress

say no to scurvy
01-12-2011, 05:58 PM
I was more intrigued by the 9th place cbtop list here (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36121), with 2x 3-drops and 1x 4-drop?

Koby
01-12-2011, 06:30 PM
@ keys

The manabase looks really sketchy, but from experience with 8 fetch/4 land manabase, it is really stable. Getting G and/or U on turn 1 is invaluable.

Nidd
01-12-2011, 06:36 PM
Only 3 StP?
Only 1 EE?
No further Removal MB?

I doubt this list can win G1 against Aggro. I expect the Meta to be quite Aggro heavy, Firespout is a must play in my eyes.

jin
01-13-2011, 02:42 PM
Only 3 StP?
Only 1 EE?
No further Removal MB?

I doubt this list can win G1 against Aggro. I expect the Meta to be quite Aggro heavy, Firespout is a must play in my eyes.

Actually, I think he read the metagame quite well. The deck focuses on overwhelming the opponent with card advantage. It is the new baseruption. Firespout was only included in Supreme Blue due to the presence of Zoo. If you would refer to the top 16, there weren't any Zoo decks.

Furthermore, black allowed him to play Plague which I would think is helpful against tribal decks. Although rumor has it that there weren't that many Goblin decks.

samurai_socks
01-13-2011, 03:17 PM
I was more intrigued by the 9th place cbtop list here (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36121), with 2x 3-drops and 1x 4-drop?

That deck should defn. be playing a Vedalken Shackles.

-Cheers-

Alphez
01-13-2011, 04:41 PM
Actually, I think he read the metagame quite well. The deck focuses on overwhelming the opponent with card advantage. It is the new baseruption. Firespout was only included in Supreme Blue due to the presence of Zoo. If you would refer to the top 16, there weren't any Zoo decks.

Furthermore, black allowed him to play Plague which I would think is helpful against tribal decks. Although rumor has it that there weren't that many Goblin decks.


How is packing only 3x Swords, 2x Top, 1x Jace "reading the metagame"? Those are supposed to be core cards of your strategy and you should aways max out on them (well, not on Jace, but you get what I mean :tongue:).
Also, the mana curve doesn't support CB that well (only 2 cards at CC=3, 1 at CC=4) and there are merely 19 blue cards. Meh.

Nidd
01-13-2011, 05:44 PM
Actually, I think he read the metagame quite well. The deck focuses on overwhelming the opponent with card advantage. It is the new baseruption. Firespout was only included in Supreme Blue due to the presence of Zoo. If you would refer to the top 16, there weren't any Zoo decks.

Furthermore, black allowed him to play Plague which I would think is helpful against tribal decks. Although rumor has it that there weren't that many Goblin decks.
FSpout > Plague against Merfolk.
FSpout = Plague against Goblins
FSpout < Plague against Elves.

That's about how I see it and Firespout is better than Plague against other decks (Zoo and DnT come to mind, as does BWConfidant.dec which I see more and more here), which puts Firespout into a much better position than Plague.

If you expect an Aggro focused Meta, playing 4 MD removal seems to be an odd choice.

SpikeyMikey
01-13-2011, 08:39 PM
How is packing only 3x Swords, 2x Top, 1x Jace "reading the metagame"? Those are supposed to be core cards of your strategy and you should aways max out on them (well, not on Jace, but you get what I mean :tongue:).
Also, the mana curve doesn't support CB that well (only 2 cards at CC=3, 1 at CC=4) and there are merely 19 blue cards. Meh.

Sacher wins by being Sacher. A good player with poor card selection will beat a poor player with good card selection. Legacy merely exacerbates this. An H bomb is better than a fission bomb but the guy with the better guidance system is going to do more damage. Plus most people are going to be so nervous walking into a pro that they'll make errors. I was basically on autopilot for my feature match because my mental capacity was spent not pissing my pants. If I get there again in Indy, I think I'll be ok, but if I got Sacher in the first round at KC, I wouldn't have been on my game.

jin
01-13-2011, 11:41 PM
How is packing only 3x Swords, 2x Top, 1x Jace "reading the metagame"? Those are supposed to be core cards of your strategy and you should aways max out on them (well, not on Jace, but you get what I mean :tongue:).
Also, the mana curve doesn't support CB that well (only 2 cards at CC=3, 1 at CC=4) and there are merely 19 blue cards. Meh.

Reading the metagame as in focusing less on Zoo based removal (firespout/perish). Don't you think it's amazing how he doesn't even have Perish? The deck focuses more on Bob than Counterbalance, with that in mind, one can understand why he would opt to run such a low curve. Although his choice of 3x Swords to plowshare is a puzzle to me as well.

I think his strategy is mainly aggressive. He wants to be always swinging. I'm pretty sure he swings with Bob quite often thanks to the abundance of exalted guys. Judging from his abundance of 1 drops (17?), his Counterbalance's prime purpose is to blank removal (much like Chalice in Aggro Loam or Dragon Stompy). He also runs less lands making his blind Counterbalances more effective against Swords to Plowshare. I'm thinking his thoughtseizes and Vendilion Cliques remove creatures making his 3x Swords to Plowshare more than enough to fight aggro control decks like Fish or CBT Mirrors.


FSpout > Plague against Merfolk.
FSpout = Plague against Goblins
FSpout < Plague against Elves.

That's about how I see it and Firespout is better than Plague against other decks (Zoo and DnT come to mind, as does BWConfidant.dec which I see more and more here), which puts Firespout into a much better position than Plague.

If you expect an Aggro focused Meta, playing 4 MD removal seems to be an odd choice.

I'm sorry, Firespout does not equal Plague against Goblins... That's like saying Back to Basics is the same thing as Blood Moon. Although, I am skeptical on his Fish matchups...

Nidd
01-14-2011, 01:30 AM
I'm sorry, Firespout does not equal Plague against Goblins... That's like saying Back to Basics is the same thing as Blood Moon. Although, I am skeptical on his Fish matchups...
Having played both Goblins and decks with Firespout/Plague I felt like both cards were actually quite close in their impact.
Firespout kills every single green man they have while Plague kills half of them and weakens the other half significantly. Spouting their board and countering their Ringleaders goes a long way towards winning this MU whereas Plagues can simply be destroyed by Krosan Grip or similiar stuff.

jin
01-14-2011, 02:15 AM
Having played both Goblins and decks with Firespout/Plague I felt like both cards were actually quite close in their impact.
Firespout kills every single green man they have while Plague kills half of them and weakens the other half significantly. Spouting their board and countering their Ringleaders goes a long way towards winning this MU whereas Plagues can simply be destroyed by Krosan Grip or similiar stuff.

That relies solely on you countering their ringleader (and vial)... Also goblins has no reason to over extend against a CBT deck. It is quite common to only have maybe a war marshal and 2 other goblins in play.. which will easily take care of CBT lists without being susceptible to mass removal. Without Rhox War Monk, losing a Goblin or two to goyfwalls is fine.

Alphez
01-14-2011, 02:31 AM
Reading the metagame as in focusing less on Zoo based removal (firespout/perish). Don't you think it's amazing how he doesn't even have Perish? The deck focuses more on Bob than Counterbalance, with that in mind, one can understand why he would opt to run such a low curve. Although his choice of 3x Swords to plowshare is a puzzle to me as well.

I think his strategy is mainly aggressive. He wants to be always swinging. I'm pretty sure he swings with Bob quite often thanks to the abundance of exalted guys. Judging from his abundance of 1 drops (17?), his Counterbalance's prime purpose is to blank removal (much like Chalice in Aggro Loam or Dragon Stompy). He also runs less lands making his blind Counterbalances more effective against Swords to Plowshare. I'm thinking his thoughtseizes and Vendilion Cliques remove creatures making his 3x Swords to Plowshare more than enough to fight aggro control decks like Fish or CBT Mirrors.


I'm not buying it, really. I can't see a reason not to run 4x StP and Top. If he wanted to blank removals and focus primarily on Bob by playing a lot of CC1 cards, well... Top would have been perfect. The same is true for StP, and having 4 spot removals would make it (slightly) easier to attack into an empty enemy board. But, honestly, I believe the creature base would have been quite different if he truly wanted to be the aggressor most of the time. And, well, I wouldn't describe 5 as an "abundance of exalted guys"... Even Big Zoo plays more of them!

I don't know, the only possible reason I can see (and I don't agree with it) is that, being unable to accurately predict the metagame, he tried to stuff the deck with as many diverse answers as possible (this would also explain the quasi-Nassif sideboard). I don't like the idea, but I'm a bad deckbuilder, so I might be wrong :P and maybe he was really counting on his playskill to make up for the deck's flaws. Is this guy a Sourcer? It'd be interesting to read his opinions.

BTW, Spikey, we're actually discussing Calcano's list now, not Sacher's ;) But maybe Calcano is an equally good/feared player, is he? I'm not from the US so I can't really tell, none of them is such a superstar here in Europe.

bokepa
01-14-2011, 04:05 AM
I don't know why you all get surprised by a list with 3 swords and 1 EE. They realize the same function, removal. Yes EE can be a bit slower but it can also generate card advantatge and its more versatile. You just need to be careful while playing it.

In fact EE is better against vial decks and Zoo while being worse vs fatties like Tombstalker, Knight of the Reliquary, Terravore...

IsThisACatInAHat?
01-14-2011, 04:24 AM
BTW, Spikey, we're actually discussing Calcano's list now, not Sacher's ;) But maybe Calcano is an equally good/feared player, is he? I'm not from the US so I can't really tell, none of them is such a superstar here in Europe.
He made 12th? at Worlds and is an active PT grinder. So, yes much better than 99% of players.

Trinket Mage is a fine top #3 and considering the extra room he bought was Thoughtseize, I suspect the added value of proactive disruption over redundant tops was perfectly intentional. His exact build was probably suboptimal, but it recognized a shift in the meta toward slower decks and took advantage of underutilized card choices for this archetype to place well. I wouldn't overanalyze some choices like 3 StP though; I'll bet that he just did it on a dare or something dumb to run a Nassif-style board. He also managed to cover his weak matchups by running EPlague over Firespout, which is strictly better against Goblins (worse of the two) and good enough against Merfolk alongside 4 copies of EE postboard.

jin
01-14-2011, 10:56 AM
I'm not buying it, really. I can't see a reason not to run 4x StP and Top. If he wanted to blank removals and focus primarily on Bob by playing a lot of CC1 cards, well... Top would have been perfect. The same is true for StP, and having 4 spot removals would make it (slightly) easier to attack into an empty enemy board. But, honestly, I believe the creature base would have been quite different if he truly wanted to be the aggressor most of the time. And, well, I wouldn't describe 5 as an "abundance of exalted guys"... Even Big Zoo plays more of them!

I don't know, the only possible reason I can see (and I don't agree with it) is that, being unable to accurately predict the metagame, he tried to stuff the deck with as many diverse answers as possible (this would also explain the quasi-Nassif sideboard). I don't like the idea, but I'm a bad deckbuilder, so I might be wrong :P and maybe he was really counting on his playskill to make up for the deck's flaws. Is this guy a Sourcer? It'd be interesting to read his opinions.

BTW, Spikey, we're actually discussing Calcano's list now, not Sacher's ;) But maybe Calcano is an equally good/feared player, is he? I'm not from the US so I can't really tell, none of them is such a superstar here in Europe.

You're comparing Big Zoo's creature base to CBT's? Are you serious? That's like comparing my bicycle to a car and saying although I'm cycling at 40km/h, I'm not cycling that fast. I'm talking abundance of exalted creatures in a CBT deck. Besides the four hierarchs, which aren't mandatory in CBT decks, I'd say 5 is an abundance.

If you call Nassif's board "unable to accurately predict metagame" and "many diverse answers," then you don't really understand Nassif's sideboard, but that's ok since you acknowledge that you don't really build decks.

I haven't looked at Calcano's sideboard indepthly yet, but it doesn't seem like a Nassif board at all. Nassif plays 1-of but several of the things serve the same purpose in a certain match up, whether it is kataki, energy flux or enlightened tutor. Calcano's board just looks like some random creatures, some removal and countermagic, stuff that should be in the main is sitting in his board. I don't think I can figure it out by just looking at this board, so I'm waiting for the videos to be uploaded


He made 12th? at Worlds and is an active PT grinder. So, yes much better than 99% of players.

Trinket Mage is a fine top #3 and considering the extra room he bought was Thoughtseize, I suspect the added value of proactive disruption over redundant tops was perfectly intentional. His exact build was probably suboptimal, but it recognized a shift in the meta toward slower decks and took advantage of underutilized card choices for this archetype to place well. I wouldn't overanalyze some choices like 3 StP though; I'll bet that he just did it on a dare or something dumb to run a Nassif-style board. He also managed to cover his weak matchups by running EPlague over Firespout, which is strictly better against Goblins (worse of the two) and good enough against Merfolk alongside 4 copies of EE postboard.

agreed. Exactly the points I'm trying to convey. I'm sorry if I did it poorly.

lolosoon
01-14-2011, 12:38 PM
Calcano's board just looks like some random creatures, some removal and countermagic, stuff that should be in the main is sitting in his board. I don't think I can figure it out by just looking at this board, so I'm waiting for the videos to be uploaded.
I've discussed SB building with a good player and friend of mine lately (i'm not good -euphemism- at that). He said there is two major options :
- Identify your bad matchups for your deck and put 15cards to bring in those particular matchups
- or -
- Think globally and build a 75cards deck that beat the crap out of the DTB and DTW

Maybe he built such a 75-cards deck looking to perform in this SCG Meta, then decide which cards were better overall for his starting 60..?

Hitman82
01-14-2011, 08:33 PM
Why doesn't CounterTop play a couple Chrome Moxes? It seems like a first turn Counterbalance would be really strong. I know it costs you a card initially but Counterbalance should more than make up for that. If I were building a CounterTop deck right now, every list I built would start with:

2 Chrome Mox
4 Counterbalance
3-4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor

I listed them in that order because that's how I see the game progressing, with those cards. Chrome Mox also makes Daze better. Just saying.

The Treefolk Master
01-14-2011, 09:53 PM
The card disadvantage (losing an often relevant spell) created by Chrome Mox is too damaging most of the time. Besides, you're a control deck, you're not looking to play you're spells in a hurry, and if you do, you're probably playing aggro control. I think the acceleration is just not worth it.

jin
01-15-2011, 01:30 AM
Why doesn't CounterTop play a couple Chrome Moxes? It seems like a first turn Counterbalance would be really strong. I know it costs you a card initially but Counterbalance should more than make up for that. If I were building a CounterTop deck right now, every list I built would start with:

2 Chrome Mox
4 Counterbalance
3-4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor

I listed them in that order because that's how I see the game progressing, with those cards. Chrome Mox also makes Daze better. Just saying.

Chrome Mox was used at one point in Probasco's build. I think the Chrome Mox was eventually dropped because the drawbacks were too great, like The Treefolk Master said.

To review, some of the advantages include:
-accelerated mana development
-mana stability
-accelerated board development

Some drawbacks include:
-card disadvantage
-horrible topdeck
-counts as 0 for CB which is less relevant
-usually ambiguous in the slot it takes whether it is a land or a spell making deckbuilding more difficult with it
>if it takes up a land slot, you have to drop the land count making your manabase (mox included) more susceptible to removal/disruption
>if it takes up a spell slot, you will lose spells that might be flexible, but help you along in the early as well as late game like Ponder, Sensei's Top, Spell Snare, etc.
-useless outside of the first three turns and does not change game state alone.
-4 colours is usually not viable in a deck that plays Chrome Mox because 4c lists are usually so tight for each colour splash that they use the most optimal cards.

Alphez
01-15-2011, 12:32 PM
You're comparing Big Zoo's creature base to CBT's? Are you serious? That's like comparing my bicycle to a car and saying although I'm cycling at 40km/h, I'm not cycling that fast. I'm talking abundance of exalted creatures in a CBT deck. Besides the four hierarchs, which aren't mandatory in CBT decks, I'd say 5 is an abundance.

If you call Nassif's board "unable to accurately predict metagame" and "many diverse answers," then you don't really understand Nassif's sideboard, but that's ok since you acknowledge that you don't really build decks.

I haven't looked at Calcano's sideboard indepthly yet, but it doesn't seem like a Nassif board at all. Nassif plays 1-of but several of the things serve the same purpose in a certain match up, whether it is kataki, energy flux or enlightened tutor. Calcano's board just looks like some random creatures, some removal and countermagic, stuff that should be in the main is sitting in his board. I don't think I can figure it out by just looking at this board, so I'm waiting for the videos to be uploaded



Gosh, I'm not comparing Big Zoo's crit base to CBT's, come on. I named Big Zoo just because it's a deck that doesn't focus primarily on the exalted mechanic, but still it plays more exalted crits than Calcano's deck: therefore, I believe it's unlikely that he was relying so much on them in order to always be the aggressor. I meant to be a bit provocative, but it was probably a misleading comparison, as we were talking about the aggression capabilities of Calcano's deck (and naming a "real" aggro deck wasn't the best option to make my reasoning clear, sorry). I hope it's clear now.

Pro-Bant is a much better example of what I wanted to say: the deck used to play 8 exalted guys in a CB-Top shell, and that's what I'd call an abundant number. This made possible for the deck to go aggro in an effective way; I don't think Confidants can do the same.


I said I'm a bad deckbuilder, not that I'm an utter idiot. I meant that:
1) the metagame is hardly predictable, at the moment
2) by knowing that, Calcano opted to rely on versatility instead of redundancy
3) versatility, in this particular list, means few copies of any given card (even the ones that most people consider to be automatic 4-ofs), and a SB based on several 1-ofs

If you re-read my post, you'll see that I only referred to Nassif in a periphrasis to describe Calcano's sideboard. I never said Nassif wasn't able to predict the metagame, nor that he built his SB that way because of this inability: I perfectly understand the reasoning behind his 1-ofs, and even if I don't like to use SBs of that kind I think the idea is really clever and effective. I was simply suggesting that maybe Carcano tried to follow the same logics in order to be as versatile as possible, and I suggested this could also explain some uncommon MD choices.

All in all, I believe Carcano decided to opt for such a list because of the reasons I talked about: I believe that, even in his mind, this list is only an intermediate step. He needed something capable of dealing with anything, while waiting for the dust to settle and then tune the deck according to the metagame that will emerge. Still, it'd be interesting to read Calcano's opinion.

jin
01-16-2011, 02:40 PM
Gosh, I'm not comparing Big Zoo's crit base to CBT's, come on. I named Big Zoo just because it's a deck that doesn't focus primarily on the exalted mechanic, but still it plays more exalted crits than Calcano's deck: therefore, I believe it's unlikely that he was relying so much on them in order to always be the aggressor. I meant to be a bit provocative, but it was probably a misleading comparison, as we were talking about the aggression capabilities of Calcano's deck (and naming a "real" aggro deck wasn't the best option to make my reasoning clear, sorry). I hope it's clear now.

Pro-Bant is a much better example of what I wanted to say: the deck used to play 8 exalted guys in a CB-Top shell, and that's what I'd call an abundant number. This made possible for the deck to go aggro in an effective way; I don't think Confidants can do the same.


I said I'm a bad deckbuilder, not that I'm an utter idiot. I meant that:
1) the metagame is hardly predictable, at the moment
2) by knowing that, Calcano opted to rely on versatility instead of redundancy
3) versatility, in this particular list, means few copies of any given card (even the ones that most people consider to be automatic 4-ofs), and a SB based on several 1-ofs

If you re-read my post, you'll see that I only referred to Nassif in a periphrasis to describe Calcano's sideboard. I never said Nassif wasn't able to predict the metagame, nor that he built his SB that way because of this inability: I perfectly understand the reasoning behind his 1-ofs, and even if I don't like to use SBs of that kind I think the idea is really clever and effective. I was simply suggesting that maybe Carcano tried to follow the same logics in order to be as versatile as possible, and I suggested this could also explain some uncommon MD choices.

All in all, I believe Carcano decided to opt for such a list because of the reasons I talked about: I believe that, even in his mind, this list is only an intermediate step. He needed something capable of dealing with anything, while waiting for the dust to settle and then tune the deck according to the metagame that will emerge. Still, it'd be interesting to read Calcano's opinion.

Your post makes a lot more sense now, thanks for that. Aw, Calcano didn't get a feature match. I guess we will never know....

gamegeek2
01-16-2011, 11:17 PM
Has anyone tried Grim Lavamancer? Seems like a beautiful answer to Goblins and Merfolk. A bit asynergistic with Spout but still strong.

Rune
01-16-2011, 11:39 PM
It's ok, but the problem is that Goblins can get rid of it easily so its usefulness in blue aggro-control is limited.

jin
01-16-2011, 11:45 PM
It's ok, but the problem is that Goblins can get rid of it easily so its usefulness in blue aggro-control is limited.

I think it's ok if ti draws removal...

Rune
01-17-2011, 12:34 AM
If it draws a Warren Weirding, that's good, but most of the time it will just turn on the Gempalms that would otherwise be blanks, giving the opponent an opportunity to savagely 2 for 1 you. I'm not a big fan of giving Goblins more possible ways to grind you out and get ahead in card advantage.

It's awesome vs Merfolk and mediocre vs Goblins

jin
01-17-2011, 09:33 AM
an active lavamancer poses a big problem for goblins.. albiet quite hard to have it active..
I don't think gempalms are ever turned off.. sorry...

a goyf is rather easy to burn out.. I would rather they cast incinerator on my lavamancer than weirding as weirding can be easily countered..

jazzykat
01-17-2011, 09:53 AM
I think Lavamang is reasonable because you are killing 1 goblin a turn until they weirding or incinerator it. If he is down early then he can be partially protected by using an stp to make the incinerator with only 1 gob out, or use his ability and an stp with 2 gobs out...

Merfolk needs to have 2 lords out at the same time to turn off Lavamang. As stated before, that is an absolute beating.

tangram
01-17-2011, 12:23 PM
The thing is... Firespout or Lavamancer? You can't have both for obvious reasons. For CB purposes a 3 is better than more 1s. As for the Goblins matchup.. they can use so much Weirding/Incinerator, if they go for the Lavamancer all the better as Tarmo will run them over easily.

From my Zoo experience, Lavamancer is THE card vs Merfolk.

Frid
01-17-2011, 12:42 PM
I won a 35 man tournament yesterday with the following list I've been performing during the last month:


// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
7 [B] Island
1 [B] Plains
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Tropical Island
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
1 [MM] Dust Bowl

// Spells
3 [ARB] Thopter Foundry
2 [FUT] Sword of the Meek
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [B] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [TE] Intuition
4 [IA] Brainstorm
1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [WL] Peacekeeper
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip


It's a new focus for thopters in legacy, using as the core of the deck 4 intuitions, instead of the typical disadvantage enlightened tutors that have been used in thopters decks during the past year. The list has a plenty of tricks/cards interactions (ITF style), and a really solid manabase. If anyone is interested in my card choices/deck strategies/whatever I would be glad to discuss about it. I have done a report but it's in spanish, you can use google translator if you want and if something remains unclear just ask about it: http://www.factoriademishra.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=3735
Greetz

Peruzo
01-17-2011, 10:24 PM
The rise on tribal in the latest SCG opens suggest CBtop should bring Engineered plagues from the SB. How about cutting red from the build and adding black for bob, removal and discard?? I'll post a list later but it shouldn´t be that hard to figure it out.

PS: Btw, first post ever :) :) :)

jin
01-17-2011, 10:45 PM
The rise on tribal in the latest SCG opens suggest CBtop should bring Engineered plagues from the SB. How about cutting red from the build and adding black for bob, removal and discard?? I'll post a list later but it shouldn´t be that hard to figure it out.

PS: Btw, first post ever :) :) :)

Welcome. There is a lot of discussion about plague in all of the boards in every deck. The general concensus is that Plague only works against Goblins where as Firespout works against most aggro deck (against goblins to a lesser degree).

I would like to make an alternate suggestion of playing Rhox War Monk again as he is a big threat and forces Goblins to run into Firespout. Although I'm not sure to use it in the sideboard or the mainboard.


The thing is... Firespout or Lavamancer? You can't have both for obvious reasons. For CB purposes a 3 is better than more 1s. As for the Goblins matchup.. they can use so much Weirding/Incinerator, if they go for the Lavamancer all the better as Tarmo will run them over easily.

From my Zoo experience, Lavamancer is THE card vs Merfolk.

In what situation are you talking about? Mainboard or sideboard?

For sideboarding purposes, I'd run them both as bringing either or both is quite practical. I'm referring to the Tom Martell's sideboard of course.

AggroSteve
01-18-2011, 03:40 AM
i for mz part went back to a 3-color list in WUG playin grhox war monk again and elspeth instead of jace (in the sideboard 2x path 2x dueling grounds and trinked mage and 2x EE for tribal other than goblins and 2x jitte as well specially for goblins) but i have to say i did not do a lot of testings

till now it worked fine and my new list plays more flexible than the 4color with spout, because it can go really aggro with 2x elspeth and 7 exalted creatures

i'll post my current list here for reference (no sideboard though since it is not jet completed, but you should have gotten a picture for above)

19 lands

3x hollowed fountain
3x breeding pool
4x flooded strand
4x misty rainforest
3x island
1x plains
1x forest

creatures

4x noble hierarch
3x quasali pridemage
4x tarmogoyf
3x rhox war monk
2x vendilion clique(testing cold eyed selkie here as well, but may be better as a sideboard tech)

spells

3x senseis divining top
4x counterbalance

4x swords to plowshares
4x brainstorm
3x daze
2x spell snare
4x force of will

2x elspeth, knights errand

i like this list a lot better specially since it does not rely that heavily on CB or a firespout and jace as an extremely slow finisher

dropping elspeth on turn 3 an flying rampant with a pridemage or a war monk is just awesome, specially with war monk^^


Oops, you are right i forgot CB and swords to plowshares^^
making 61 cards total.... it's a habit, i can't help it^^

now the list is complete

rogue.nine
01-18-2011, 03:59 AM
Well according to your list you're not running any couterbalances so yeah I guess you're not relying on CB but that kinda makes this deck some sort of bant agro/tempo build like New Horizons and not a Counterbalance deck, which is not a bad thing by any means but not much one can say about it since its kinda a different deck that has a different plan and plays differently.

Xiang
01-18-2011, 04:58 AM
I guess the cb are in the 7 missing cards (53 cards main)....

tangram
01-18-2011, 05:48 AM
In what situation are you talking about? Mainboard or sideboard?

For sideboarding purposes, I'd run them both as bringing either or both is quite practical. I'm referring to the Tom Martell's sideboard of course.

I was referring to MTGO versions of CB with 4 Grim Lavamancer and 1 Firespout main being run by lsv. Lavamancer + Firespout are too un-synergetic imho to be run at the same time.

Both Firespout and Lavamancer don't deal with fat creatures like Goyf or KotR and one can only have so many Swords.

Alphez
01-18-2011, 08:59 AM
A friend of mine top4'd at a big tournament (117 people) last sunday piloting Baseruption. Here's the list:


Maindeck

// Lands
4 Underground Sea
3 [B] Tropical Island
3 [B] Tundra
2 [OD] Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [DIS] Trygon Predator

// Spells
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
2 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard

SB: 2 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [TE] Perish
SB: 2 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist


Talk about a blast from the past, huh?
The list is a pretty standard Baseruption list, with some adjustments based on my friend's taste (like, he hates Ponder in C-Top and he swears 20 lands are perfectly enough for him).

The first thing I asked him when I saw the list was: "I don't know how you could beat pure aggro with that deck."
He said: "I faced none."
:eyebrow:
I believe improving the aggro matchup is the key problem of this kind of deck; other than that, Bob is probably enough to give it an edge over the endless sea of aggro-control and control decks one could face.

I was thinking about maybe trying to toss some Rhox War Monks or Knights of the Reliquary in there (maybe replacing Shackles and Threads, as I'm afraid they could be too slow): they would serve as additional blockers against aggro, and they would be able to end games rather quickly once you're in control. What do you think about that? One of the downsides is that Perish would become a lot less attractive...

One thing my friend stressed a lot is how good Nature's Claims were for him: they allowed him to answer 1st-turn Vials, and they made it much much easier to deal with Choke. The downside is that, as you can't really avoid playing a couple Krosan Grips, you'd eat some 4 SB slots for disenchant effects...

ExplosPlankton
01-18-2011, 12:05 PM
Grim lavamancer is also quite good v. Elves which has been popular on MTGO lately. And you might not think so at first but its quite effective v. dredge as well. Mainly for the ability to kak itself at instant speed to remove bridges. That way you actually stand a chance in game 1s.

Rune
01-18-2011, 12:24 PM
Grim lavamancer is also quite good v. Elves which has been popular on MTGO lately. And you might not think so at first but its quite effective v. dredge as well. Mainly for the ability to kak itself at instant speed to remove bridges. That way you actually stand a chance in game 1s.

Tbh, it's quite hard to get multiple activations out of him in a deck like CT in the first place (when you need them). Firespout is better because it's good against all the aggro decks, not just some of them. He's a reasonable inclusion in the sideboard, but if you're cutting down on the Firespouts for him, I think you're making a mistake.

Amon Amarth
01-18-2011, 05:27 PM
I was referring to MTGO versions of CB with 4 Grim Lavamancer and 1 Firespout main being run by lsv. Lavamancer + Firespout are too un-synergetic imho to be run at the same time.

Both Firespout and Lavamancer don't deal with fat creatures like Goyf or KotR and one can only have so many Swords.

lsv's version seems to be catching on in the daily legacy queues. A lot of different people are running his version, almost card for card.

jin
01-19-2011, 10:41 AM
I was referring to MTGO versions of CB with 4 Grim Lavamancer and 1 Firespout main being run by lsv. Lavamancer + Firespout are too un-synergetic imho to be run at the same time.

Both Firespout and Lavamancer don't deal with fat creatures like Goyf or KotR and one can only have so many Swords.

4 lavamancer and 1 firespout doesn't seem too bad. I thought you were talking more like 4/3 split.. I think Firespout as a 1-of in the wake of 4 lavamancers is fine simply because if you need to cast the Firespout, you probably don't have any lavamancers. It's quite the same in Brad Nelson's Rock/Junk deck since he played 1x Pernicious Deed in a deck that runs only cards in the 0-3 range. I think these type of 1-ofs are fine if you have regularly and constant removal. These 1-ofs are more like reset buttons which you might need if you don't have an active lavamancer in the CBT deck or a goyf in the Rock/Junk deck.

You aren't going to cast Firespout when you have Lavamancers on the table and you probably wouldn't need to.

I don't have LSV's list, so I don't know whta's going on, but I'm assuming he doesn't have white for plow. In that case, it still seems fine simply because no goyf will swing at your goyf if you have an active lavamancer. With that said, I don't think he needs removal simply because he has an edge in the goyf-stall...

FieryBalrog
01-19-2011, 12:09 PM
an active lavamancer poses a big problem for goblins.. albiet quite hard to have it active..
I don't think gempalms are ever turned off.. sorry...

a goyf is rather easy to burn out.. I would rather they cast incinerator on my lavamancer than weirding as weirding can be easily countered..

Having played againt Goyf a bunch, he is enormously difficult to burn out and super annoying to deal with via Gempalm incinerator. All too often you activate incinerator only for your opp. to brainstorm/swords in response thereby making it do nothing (you can even see Gerry T do this in the finals of SCG SJ).

tangram
01-19-2011, 12:14 PM
I don't have LSV's list, so I don't know whta's going on, but I'm assuming he doesn't have white for plow. In that case, it still seems fine simply because no goyf will swing at your goyf if you have an active lavamancer. With that said, I don't think he needs removal simply because he has an edge in the goyf-stall...

I think the MTGO list is different from the one he used at SCG Open. His list Open list was according to the coverage close to GerryT's with the exception that GerryT didn't use little Jace.

Personally I just prefer 4 Firespout main + 4 Swords and additional solutions in board (loads of aggro around here).

ExplosPlankton
01-19-2011, 12:50 PM
1 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
1 Firespout
4 Force of Will
2 Jace Beleren
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard

2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Firespout
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Spell Pierce
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Vendilion Clique

This is LSV's list from a legacy daily event online. The maindeck differences between his list and Gerry T's runner up list from San Jose are -1 forest, -4 grim lavamancer, -2 Jace Beleren, +1 Volcanic Island, +1 Vendilion Clique, +2 Firespout, +2 Repeal, +1 Jace the Mind Sculptor. And I believe the only sideboard differences are 2 pithing needle over the 2 crypts. Gerry T's list is pretty much traditional except for the pair of repeals. It'll be interesting to see whether this innovation becomes industry standard going forward.

jin
01-20-2011, 12:40 AM
Having played againt Goyf a bunch, he is enormously difficult to burn out and super annoying to deal with via Gempalm incinerator. All too often you activate incinerator only for your opp. to brainstorm/swords in response thereby making it do nothing (you can even see Gerry T do this in the finals of SCG SJ).

Well, that's just really a problem of the Goblin player and doens't say much about the power of goyf. I never incinerate a goyf unless I have 2 more goblins than the goyf has toughness. And seriously, that's not even that hard since goyf is a 4/5 at best in a deck that packs sorceries and instances. Usually i fight 3/4 goyfs as the only things in the yard are instance, lands and creatures.

That's really not too hard to deal with especially in lists that run Mogg War Marshall. I don't even run Mogg War Marshalls. Oh I forgot, this wasn't the goblin thread. If I were to fight CBT with my Goblin deck, I'd only burn out if I had 1 more Goblin as a CBT deck with 2 swords is unlikely. Even if they did, trading 2 swords for 2 goblins just to save their goyf is actually quite a good trade for the Goblin player.


I think the MTGO list is different from the one he used at SCG Open. His list Open list was according to the coverage close to GerryT's with the exception that GerryT didn't use little Jace.

Personally I just prefer 4 Firespout main + 4 Swords and additional solutions in board (loads of aggro around here).

So he doesn't pack white? Sorry, I'm just lazy to look up the list. With regards to your last comment though, I think it's just a matter of playing style. Your way is more bomb oriented in that it relies on the Firespout for swarm control. LSV's lavamancer build is much quicker and can control the swarms earlier leaving only the big therats to be delt with via countermagic or goyf. He tries to deal with the problem before they arise where as Firespout deals with the problem when the situation is already out of hand.

I'm not sure which is the best, although I'm saying I see the contrasts between the two strategies. With LSV's build, it is much hard to play around as his removal is constant versus Firespouts where decks can slow play their creatures. However, an unsuscpted Firespout is very devastating.


1 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
1 Firespout
4 Force of Will
2 Jace Beleren
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard

2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Firespout
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Spell Pierce
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Vendilion Clique

This is LSV's list from a legacy daily event online. The maindeck differences between his list and Gerry T's runner up list from San Jose are -1 forest, -4 grim lavamancer, -2 Jace Beleren, +1 Volcanic Island, +1 Vendilion Clique, +2 Firespout, +2 Repeal, +1 Jace the Mind Sculptor. And I believe the only sideboard differences are 2 pithing needle over the 2 crypts. Gerry T's list is pretty much traditional except for the pair of repeals. It'll be interesting to see whether this innovation becomes industry standard going forward.

Oh thanks so much,.. I didn't read your post until I posted this. that helps a lot!

So he does pack swords to plowshares, then the lavamancer/firespout split is fine...

Interesting, why would you say that about Repeals? I looked at it, but didn't really understand what purpose they might serve.

AggroSteve
01-20-2011, 06:38 AM
i would say the main purpose of repeals is te cantrip effect, but a cantrip, that gets you out of a tricky situation is not that bad in my eyes

Valtrix
01-20-2011, 09:45 AM
Keep in mind that repeal also helps you deal with things that have made it through your counterbalance, which can sometimes be useful. My guess is that it was mostly for the mirror, as bouncing an opponent's balance when you have your own could be huge. It also has the potential to bounce goyf/Clique in the face of swords if you're lucky. That said, I'm not sure if it's worth the deck space, but it definitely has its uses.

jin
01-20-2011, 09:49 AM
Keep in mind that repeal also helps you deal with things that have made it through your counterbalance, which can sometimes be useful. My guess is that it was mostly for the mirror, as bouncing an opponent's balance when you have your own could be huge. It also has the potential to bounce goyf/Clique in the face of swords if you're lucky. That said, I'm not sure if it's worth the deck space, but it definitely has its uses.

Yeah I was just going to post about that after AggroSteve's comment about it bouncing things and cantripping because it hit me that it bounces CB for 3cmc which is supposedly hard to hit. That's interesting. I don'tk now about saving your own creatures with it, but I can see how it would be usefule to fight the mirror as bouncing a Jace2.0 for 5 is nearly uncounterable with CB.

I think it servse as what used to be Rushing River as it is a pretty flexible card to solve problems. I'm with you though, I don't know if it deserves a spot as the lists are generally pretty tight.

DFY889
01-20-2011, 10:31 PM
I've been trying cunning wish in the "flex" slot. It isn't the best card ever, but it is a three that pitches to force of will and think that that is pretty relevant, and it is almost never dead but often too slow against the aggressive decks. My wish board is sort of in flux and not optimal at the moment.

DragoFireheart
01-20-2011, 10:46 PM
Does this deck want the new Tarmogoyf Tutor? (Green Zenith Sun).

ivanpei
01-20-2011, 11:04 PM
@ Drago, I'm sure the No-Pro lists will want the Zenith while the 4 colour firespout lists probably won't. Firespout + dryad arbor are not great friends. It is LITERALLY a tarmogoyf tutor in the 4c lists while the No-pro lists can abuse it in more ways.

Shimi
01-21-2011, 12:21 AM
The problem with 4c build are that you just have Goyf as creatures(vendillion don't block and you sideout sometimes) so I'm testing Green Zenith as Goyfs 5th and 6th.. it is just too good that I pre-ordered a playset today.Also I have 2 or 3 green tool box creatures in SB.

PS:Did not tested CounterTop Progenitus yet.

DragoFireheart
01-21-2011, 12:32 AM
@ Drago, I'm sure the No-Pro lists will want the Zenith while the 4 colour firespout lists probably won't. Firespout + dryad arbor are not great friends. It is LITERALLY a tarmogoyf tutor in the 4c lists while the No-pro lists can abuse it in more ways.

OH GOOD A TUTOR FOR GOYF IS HORRIBLE!!!

Heh, but I know what you are saying. 4C CT doesn't do anything else with the Green Zenith.

Kratosso
01-21-2011, 08:38 AM
A friend of mine top4'd at a big tournament (117 people) last sunday piloting Baseruption. Here's the list:


Maindeck

// Lands
4 Underground Sea
3 [B] Tropical Island
3 [B] Tundra
2 [OD] Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [DIS] Trygon Predator

// Spells
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
2 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard

SB: 2 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [TE] Perish
SB: 2 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist


Talk about a blast from the past, huh?
The list is a pretty standard Baseruption list, with some adjustments based on my friend's taste (like, he hates Ponder in C-Top and he swears 20 lands are perfectly enough for him).

The first thing I asked him when I saw the list was: "I don't know how you could beat pure aggro with that deck."
He said: "I faced none."
:eyebrow:
I believe improving the aggro matchup is the key problem of this kind of deck; other than that, Bob is probably enough to give it an edge over the endless sea of aggro-control and control decks one could face.

I was thinking about maybe trying to toss some Rhox War Monks or Knights of the Reliquary in there (maybe replacing Shackles and Threads, as I'm afraid they could be too slow): they would serve as additional blockers against aggro, and they would be able to end games rather quickly once you're in control. What do you think about that? One of the downsides is that Perish would become a lot less attractive...

One thing my friend stressed a lot is how good Nature's Claims were for him: they allowed him to answer 1st-turn Vials, and they made it much much easier to deal with Choke. The downside is that, as you can't really avoid playing a couple Krosan Grips, you'd eat some 4 SB slots for disenchant effects...

Hi, I'm a Baseruption lover, you CAN'T win against Zoo and you've to play perfectly with Goblin and merfolk if you want to win.
I'm testing a solution that may appear strange: 2x engenireed explosives.

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Trygon Predator (pre-side is an utlity, post side gives you a 3x against artifact)
1 Vendilion Clique

Istants
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze (you dont' nedd this card always, 4 are usually too much, 3 is perfect)
1 Enlightened Tutor (Fantastic, it gives you more choice and a +1 for other artifacts and enchantments)
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Counterbalance

2 Engineered Explosives
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Vedalken Shackles

1 Forest (If you want to save yourself from moon-effect)
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor (+1, it's too important in this deck)

Sideboard
2 Meddling Mage (jolly, against combo's)
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Perish
2 Engineered Plague
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt

jin
01-21-2011, 08:53 AM
The problem with 4c build are that you just have Goyf as creatures(vendillion don't block and you sideout sometimes) so I'm testing Green Zenith as Goyfs 5th and 6th.. it is just too good that I pre-ordered a playset today.Also I have 2 or 3 green tool box creatures in SB.

PS:Did not tested CounterTop Progenitus yet.

Why don't you just play Wall of Roots?

Shimi
01-22-2011, 01:23 AM
Why don't you just play Wall of Roots?

I want to kill my opponent.. why should I be playing Wall of Roots?

jin
01-22-2011, 02:17 AM
I want to kill my opponent.. why should I be playing Wall of Roots?

it's merely a sarcastic way to question the need for a goyf tutor..when you can play other walls..

DragoFireheart
01-24-2011, 05:39 PM
it's merely a sarcastic way to question the need for a goyf tutor..when you can play other walls..

In the defense of the Goyf tutor, it tutors a wall that can attack and kill things it blocks.

:P

jin
01-24-2011, 11:01 PM
In the defense of the Goyf tutor, it tutors a wall that can attack and kill things it blocks.

:P

yes I'm sorry, how about Vinlasher Kudzu or Werebear.. they block and attack... O.o

SMR0079
01-25-2011, 01:17 AM
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36240

In the more controlling Prozak inspired versions such as the above, it may be worth considering Wrath of God in the sideboard to improve your Goblins/Junk match up. I would have preferred them to the Hydroblasts in the last two SCG events.

I never really likes Wrath before because it sucked so bad against Merfolk, but their numbers are down and you have other tools to fight them. I also added Path x2 to the main which really helps to ensure you draw spot removal in the early game.

In regards to Wall of roots in the Natural Order version, it's actually better then Pridemage for what you are tryingn to do - survive any early rush to stabilize before you set up the lock and resolve Natural Order.

jin
01-25-2011, 02:53 AM
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36240

In the more controlling Prozak inspired versions such as the above, it may be worth considering Wrath of God in the sideboard to improve your Goblins/Junk match up. I would have preferred them to the Hydroblasts in the last two SCG events.

I never really likes Wrath before because it sucked so bad against Merfolk, but their numbers are down and you have other tools to fight them. I also added Path x2 to the main which really helps to ensure you draw spot removal in the early game.

In regards to Wall of roots in the Natural Order version, it's actually better then Pridemage for what you are tryingn to do - survive any early rush to stabilize before you set up the lock and resolve Natural Order.

Or Nevinyrral's disk so you can destroy Affinity and Vial's .. LOL, yay Landstill is back... Don't worry Jace will survive.

Kratosso
01-25-2011, 03:21 AM
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36240

In the more controlling Prozak inspired versions such as the above, it may be worth considering Wrath of God in the sideboard to improve your Goblins/Junk match up. I would have preferred them to the Hydroblasts in the last two SCG events.

I never really likes Wrath before because it sucked so bad against Merfolk, but their numbers are down and you have other tools to fight them. I also added Path x2 to the main which really helps to ensure you draw spot removal in the early game.

In regards to Wall of roots in the Natural Order version, it's actually better then Pridemage for what you are tryingn to do - survive any early rush to stabilize before you set up the lock and resolve Natural Order.

Our problem are fast aggro-decks, here in Italy there are so many Zoo!
We can try 2x Wrath of God, in this deck list, post side we get 4x Sword to Plowshares + 2x Wrath of God + 2x Perish and 2x Eng. Explosives = 10 (6 mass removal) , I think that's enough.

The list:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator


4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Counterbalance

2 Engineered Explosives
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Vedalken Shackles

1 Forest
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard Find a Place for 2x Wrath of god?
2 Meddling Mage (jolly, against combo's)
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Perish
2 Engineered Plague
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt

Valtrix
01-27-2011, 03:08 AM
Why not play the firespout countertop lists as of late? They seem a lot more equipped to deal with aggro. If you really want to hate on aggro run 4x pyroclasm in your board, and I think that gives you a lot of good answers to the aggro decks of today's meta, especially if you run engineered explosives as your versatile removal of choice. While I love black, I don't find that it adds a whole lot. I am always underwhelmed by confidant's ability to actually win the game (and he's awful against aggro, by the way). The sideboard options also seem fairly limited as well, though some options like extirpate and engineered plague can be fairly strong.

jin
01-27-2011, 10:54 AM
Why not play the firespout countertop lists as of late? They seem a lot more equipped to deal with aggro. If you really want to hate on aggro run 4x pyroclasm in your board, and I think that gives you a lot of good answers to the aggro decks of today's meta, especially if you run engineered explosives as your versatile removal of choice. While I love black, I don't find that it adds a whole lot. I am always underwhelmed by confidant's ability to actually win the game (and he's awful against aggro, by the way). The sideboard options also seem fairly limited as well, though some options like extirpate and engineered plague can be fairly strong.

Red cannot kill KOTR, Rhox War Monk, Goyf, Terravore, Emrakul, Progenitus, etc. Now that the format's aggro creatures are bigger, Firespout is becoming as useful as Pyroclasm. You'll find that it won't kill Merfolks, or Angels or Etched Champions where as Black can.

Black has a way more hateful sideboard against Green (which hits several of the creatures listed earlier) and way more versatile removal. It's ability to hate out the yard is also stronger.

Dark Confidant is also one of the best draw card in Legacy along with Ad Nauseam, Jace 2.0 and Standstill, etc.

rancOr_
01-27-2011, 03:04 PM
Firespout is just too good not to run atm imo.If it's not main then side. It gives a fighting chance against merfolks,goblins and is also really good vs zoo. As a bonus u can play REB as additional removal vs merfolk and a very nice card in the control mirrors.
I understand the value of black,but for now I'd play red for sure.

IsThisACatInAHat?
01-27-2011, 03:05 PM
None of those threats reasonably justifies black over red as a 4th color. Knight and goyf (and Terravore) are answerable by Swords to Plowshares. It's an instant for W that just exiles your problem. That's what it's always been for. Emrakul is already answerable in blue and white, Progenitus is barely played anymore but still answerable in white and RWM doesn't actually deserve an answer, though red does also have the cheapest one alongside white, strictly better than black because black's is a sorcery.

The problem cards are not green, they're blue and red and tribal. Firespout handles them insanely well. Merfolk needs 3 lords out to survive one without having taken combat damage or getting one plowed. So yes, in magicchristmasland (for them), Merfolk survive Firespout. Granted, Eplague is better against Goblins, but red offers so much more against every other deck that an extremely trivial loss of value from Eplague to Firespout in one matchup is more than made up for by added utility in everything else.

Let me not seem biased here, though. Big Boy Bobby Brown is easily the best creature ever printed. But he doesn't actually do anything against your bad matchups and red already supplements your good/ even ones. Now that Jace exists, the only reason to run black is nostalgia or personal preference. Don't try and make it out like the two are even.

Tinefol
01-27-2011, 03:14 PM
And there's always option of not splashing the 4th color. I'm fine with what Bant colors can offer and manabase/color stability.

Rico Suave
01-27-2011, 03:53 PM
Firespout isn't that good against Merfolk. Firespout doesn't answer Mutavault, nor does it answer the creatures they are undoubtedly sand-bagging in their hand either.

Consider that Merfolk can easily produce 8+ damage per turn with just Mutavault, Lord, and Silvergill Adept. Your Firespout only removes 2 of those creatures, not to mention the fact one of their creatures cantripped in the process.

If you don't Firespout? They EOT Vial in another Lord and swing for 14. If you do Firespout? They still EOT Vial that Lord in and swing for 5 anyway.

The only magicchristmasland I see is the one where CB/Top players think Firespout is going to let them beat Merfolk. Because it hasn't in the past, and it still doesn't right now.

wh4tever
01-27-2011, 05:32 PM
Hey Guys.
Aehm, you are all talking about "more or less" control shells, but what about a real control build?!
I like to play CB/Top, but really control like.
Here is my current list, which is running well. My Problem is (after SotF banning): Gobbos. Peacekeeper are not good enough and Moat only vs Lists without g-Splah.
// Lands
2 Plains
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta

// Spells
3 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Spell Snare
3 Vindicate
2 Lim-Dul's Vault

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Back to Basics
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Peacekeeper
SB: 4 Duress
SB: 1 Moat

later hopefully more, gotta go now :/

gl+hf

Nameless Two
01-27-2011, 05:49 PM
Engineered Plague maybe?

Tinefol
01-27-2011, 06:04 PM
Firespout isn't that good against Merfolk. Firespout doesn't answer Mutavault, nor does it answer the creatures they are undoubtedly sand-bagging in their hand either.

Consider that Merfolk can easily produce 8+ damage per turn with just Mutavault, Lord, and Silvergill Adept. Your Firespout only removes 2 of those creatures, not to mention the fact one of their creatures cantripped in the process.

If you don't Firespout? They EOT Vial in another Lord and swing for 14. If you do Firespout? They still EOT Vial that Lord in and swing for 5 anyway.

The only magicchristmasland I see is the one where CB/Top players think Firespout is going to let them beat Merfolk. Because it hasn't in the past, and it still doesn't right now.

To add: you need 3 mana to cast firespout. one of them red. Also, green, if there's Coralhelm. You need 4, if there's Cursecatcher. Five, if they hold a Daze. Even more, if they also happened to waste your land. Its not a panacea. Most lists run only 3 Spouts.

jin
01-27-2011, 10:21 PM
None of those threats reasonably justifies black over red as a 4th color. Knight and goyf (and Terravore) are answerable by Swords to Plowshares. It's an instant for W that just exiles your problem. That's what it's always been for. Emrakul is already answerable in blue and white, Progenitus is barely played anymore but still answerable in white and RWM doesn't actually deserve an answer, though red does also have the cheapest one alongside white, strictly better than black because black's is a sorcery.

The problem cards are not green, they're blue and red and tribal. Firespout handles them insanely well. Merfolk needs 3 lords out to survive one without having taken combat damage or getting one plowed. So yes, in magicchristmasland (for them), Merfolk survive Firespout. Granted, Eplague is better against Goblins, but red offers so much more against every other deck that an extremely trivial loss of value from Eplague to Firespout in one matchup is more than made up for by added utility in everything else.

Let me not seem biased here, though. Big Boy Bobby Brown is easily the best creature ever printed. But he doesn't actually do anything against your bad matchups and red already supplements your good/ even ones. Now that Jace exists, the only reason to run black is nostalgia or personal preference. Don't try and make it out like the two are even.

Dark Confidant draws faster than Jace2. That's why basruption exists. Dark Confidant comes down 2 turns earlier and draws a turn before. Not to mention you should play Dark Confidant along with Jace2 rather than just with Jace2 alone.

IsThisACatInAHat?
01-27-2011, 11:07 PM
Firespout isn't that good against Merfolk. Firespout doesn't answer Mutavault, nor does it answer the creatures they are undoubtedly sand-bagging in their hand either.

Consider that Merfolk can easily produce 8+ damage per turn with just Mutavault, Lord, and Silvergill Adept. Your Firespout only removes 2 of those creatures, not to mention the fact one of their creatures cantripped in the process.

If you don't Firespout? They EOT Vial in another Lord and swing for 14. If you do Firespout? They still EOT Vial that Lord in and swing for 5 anyway.

The only magicchristmasland I see is the one where CB/Top players think Firespout is going to let them beat Merfolk. Because it hasn't in the past, and it still doesn't right now.
I'm really not sure how serious this answer is, but I'll bite assuming it's not a bad troll. So, assume they've got Lord+Silvergill+Mutavault and you've got Firespout. You cast it to 2-for-1 them on the spot, plus now they can't attack with Mutavault if you have any creature out (which you won't lose). That's 0 damage getting through. If they EOT vial a Lord of Atlantis (one of three left), that's 3 damage from the Mutavault only. Any other lord, still 0 assuming you have 1 creature. Assume instead you have StP instead of a creature, that's 2 damage getting through (StP EOT vialed lord, eat 2 from Mutavault).

No, Firespout by itself does not win the matchup in the way that, I don't know, triple Eplague would. But assuming a typical 4c build, Firespout+ Red Blast+ your existing relevant cards puts you at an objectively >50% advantage. Yes, you can create artifical scenarios where Merfolk can plow through a everything you throw at them, where they have all of their Lords of Atlantis' on top of their deck and infinite creatures to sandbag and pitch to their 6 Forces to counter your feeble attempts at staying alive. But realistically, 4c Jacespout has a positive matchup against Merfolk pre and postboard.

From all of the above scenarios, you're even assuming multiples of the same card in a deck with no cantrips, fixing or carddraw while the deck that basically consists of about 1/3 those things will somehow not be able to find a single Firespout plus at least one of 13 other cards postboard, plus anything on top of the single goyf/clique/plow/blast the stock list needs to straight trump Merfolk in the described scenario. In fact, it even needs fewer cards and still wins. Even if you choose to ignore facts, by your own admission Firespouting saves you 9 damage, the difference between 14 and 5. If that's not somehow significant to you, then maybe you should just read rather than comment.

Rune
01-28-2011, 05:41 AM
Agree with the above. Firespout doesn't win the matchup on its own, but when you combine it with a few sideboard cards, it becomes almost impossible to lose.


In other news: I got a hold of PV's GP report that people were asking about some time ago because it got randomly deleted. I can upload/send it, if anyone wants ;o

Rico Suave
01-28-2011, 04:17 PM
I'm really not sure how serious this answer is, but I'll bite assuming it's not a bad troll. So, assume they've got Lord+Silvergill+Mutavault and you've got Firespout. You cast it to 2-for-1 them on the spot, plus now they can't attack with Mutavault if you have any creature out (which you won't lose). That's 0 damage getting through. If they EOT vial a Lord of Atlantis (one of three left), that's 3 damage from the Mutavault only. Any other lord, still 0 assuming you have 1 creature. Assume instead you have StP instead of a creature, that's 2 damage getting through (StP EOT vialed lord, eat 2 from Mutavault).

No, Firespout by itself does not win the matchup in the way that, I don't know, triple Eplague would. But assuming a typical 4c build, Firespout+ Red Blast+ your existing relevant cards puts you at an objectively >50% advantage. Yes, you can create artifical scenarios where Merfolk can plow through a everything you throw at them, where they have all of their Lords of Atlantis' on top of their deck and infinite creatures to sandbag and pitch to their 6 Forces to counter your feeble attempts at staying alive. But realistically, 4c Jacespout has a positive matchup against Merfolk pre and postboard.

From all of the above scenarios, you're even assuming multiples of the same card in a deck with no cantrips, fixing or carddraw while the deck that basically consists of about 1/3 those things will somehow not be able to find a single Firespout plus at least one of 13 other cards postboard, plus anything on top of the single goyf/clique/plow/blast the stock list needs to straight trump Merfolk in the described scenario. In fact, it even needs fewer cards and still wins. Even if you choose to ignore facts, by your own admission Firespouting saves you 9 damage, the difference between 14 and 5. If that's not somehow significant to you, then maybe you should just read rather than comment.

I was being serious.

Let's get to the heart of the problem. Is Firespout a better plan than what a regular Bant CB/Top deck can produce? Yeah, sure. But it is still a losing plan.

You want a high profile example? Read this:

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpcol10/welcome#8

I don't know why you think Firespout suddenly makes this a positive match. Have you sat down and played it? It's very disappointing for someone who wants to reliably defeat Merfolk.

Now, Firespout is fine against Goblins. It is effective against Elves, and a number of other decks like WW. But ultimately Merfolk will beat it more often than not, even if you have a slew of spot removal and hate cards to go with it.

Adan
01-29-2011, 07:21 AM
Firespout is a fine card, but a good Merfolk player will see it coming and play around it by simply NOT overextending to it as Rico said. It's definitely nice to have, but nothing to rely on, it still takes more to beat Merfolk. It basically revolves around whether you can counter Aether Vial or not because it's exactly the card that makes Firespout, Counterbalance, Countermagic, Jace etc. suck like hell.

The actual keycard in these tempomatchups is still Sensei's Divining Top.

munkie
01-29-2011, 08:26 AM
Between Repeal and Firespout, most of the creature decks are a non-issue for 4c Firespout decks. Playing around Firespout doesn't take a "good" Merfolk/Goblins/Zoo player, as holding back dudes and not applying pressure is the easiest way to lose against a control deck. Sure Firespout doesn't kill a lot of creatures is your worse matchups (KoTR, Goyf, Terravore, Tombstalker) Swords to Plowshares does just fine.

Rico Suave
01-29-2011, 04:14 PM
Between Repeal and Firespout, most of the creature decks are a non-issue for 4c Firespout decks. Playing around Firespout doesn't take a "good" Merfolk/Goblins/Zoo player, as holding back dudes and not applying pressure is the easiest way to lose against a control deck. Sure Firespout doesn't kill a lot of creatures is your worse matchups (KoTR, Goyf, Terravore, Tombstalker) Swords to Plowshares does just fine.

I think most CB/Top players seem disillusioned.

If Repeal and Firespout make creature decks a non-issue, then why do the Firespout decks keep losing to the creature decks?

Tinefol
01-29-2011, 04:16 PM
Between Repeal and Firespout, most of the creature decks are a non-issue for 4c Firespout decks

...if you're not destroyed by Wasteland and color issues. The only common match up where having Firespout (and thus being 4c with its manabase) is a strict plus is Zoo. Everywhere else you're hit by Wastelands/Ports/Daze/SP etc, and you don't have Hierarch/Daze to solidify the early game. Anyways, I'm doing just fine with my Bant take on Countertop. I've tried 4c and I was amazed how horribly awful it played against Merfolk in testing.

Valtrix
01-29-2011, 10:32 PM
As a 4c Countertop player playing with firespouts for awhile, firespout/repeal/creature removal does not make creature decks a non-issue. The only way that this removal suite begins to be relevant is if you're gearing for it in your sideboard. I don't mean just the 4th firespout, I mean 6 cards of your board need to deal with creatures. When you can bring in some number of firespouts/engineered explosives/paths(/REBs), then you can really make the creature decks less of a threat. Note that this is less of a threat, and not no threat. Creature decks can always overwhelm you.

That said, not all creature decks are created equal. Having excess removal helps most against zoo, because if their creatures can't kill you then you blank a lot of their cards. It is next most effective against merfolk. Keeping them off lords slows them down a lot, but they have counterspells to deal with things like firespout, as well as standstill/silvergil to recover cards. Goblins? Goblins is an awful matchup. If you're playing something like 4 goyfs/3 Jace as the main win cons, goblins will beat you unless you get only the luckiest of games. They have a relentless creature assault (and can thus sandbag), mogg war marshal is surprisingly annoying to deal with when playing firespout, matrons and ringleaders refill their hands, and haste/vials can keep getting damage in unless you're always ready. They are a control deck against you, and have a very good chance at wearing you down.

So, bringing in lots of removal can make zoo (relatively) easy. That same removal, plus some REBs can improve the Merfolk matchup a lot, but you do still need to worry about them. But for goblins? You're going to need a lot more than that if you're playing a low number of win-conditions, in my opinion. Tools like firespout are great tools to stop you from losing in the short term, but you still need to win in the long term. Creature decks are not as easy to take down as you think. Iif they were, more people would be playing these counterbalance decks in my opinion.

Shimi
01-30-2011, 08:22 PM
Goblins? Goblins is an awful matchup. If you're playing something like 4 goyfs/3 Jace as the main win cons, goblins will beat you unless you get only the luckiest of games. They have a relentless creature assault (and can thus sandbag), mogg war marshal is surprisingly annoying to deal with when playing firespout, matrons and ringleaders refill their hands, and haste/vials can keep getting damage in unless you're always ready. They are a control deck against you, and have a very good chance at wearing you down.



That's why I'm testing Green Sun's Zenith as Goyf(6 and 7) and 3 silverbullet guys at board.You should try it.

Valtrix
01-30-2011, 09:28 PM
What do you consider silver-bullet green creatures in the goblins matchup? Or do you just mean bullet creatures in general, but running zenith gives you more goyfs against goblins?

jin
01-30-2011, 10:34 PM
...if you're not destroyed by Wasteland and color issues. The only common match up where having Firespout (and thus being 4c with its manabase) is a strict plus is Zoo. Everywhere else you're hit by Wastelands/Ports/Daze/SP etc, and you don't have Hierarch/Daze to solidify the early game. Anyways, I'm doing just fine with my Bant take on Countertop. I've tried 4c and I was amazed how horribly awful it played against Merfolk in testing.

How do you deal with the merfolk match up with just BANT? So far I've only come up with extra spot removal with Path to Exile, but then they bring in Kira and it becomes really annoying. Do you use equipment to negate Kira? Thanks for your answer.

DFY889
01-31-2011, 12:45 AM
One possible solution to the Goblins matchup is to board Moats. Yeah, they're like $300 each, so a thousand dollar sideboard solution may be less than ideal. If they play Green they might have grips, but mono red or RB has essentially not out to it. How we win through a moat is sort of interesting as well. Generally V-cliques will get edicted or gemplamed, but Jace should be able to ride it out.

It's not as good against Merfolk as it used to be because of Coralhelm, but it still helps a lot, since Merfolk is easier to attrition out over the long game than Goblins.

It's similar for other creature decks, a speedbump, but one that can be overcome. However, Goblin, to my knowledge, really can't beat it without Taigas and grips. In which case you just need to slowroll a three on top, since CB lock should be somewhat easy to assemble once the beatdown ends.

jin
01-31-2011, 01:28 AM
One possible solution to the Goblins matchup is to board Moats. Yeah, they're like $300 each, so a thousand dollar sideboard solution may be less than ideal. If they play Green they might have grips, but mono red or RB has essentially not out to it. How we win through a moat is sort of interesting as well. Generally V-cliques will get edicted or gemplamed, but Jace should be able to ride it out.

It's not as good against Merfolk as it used to be because of Coralhelm, but it still helps a lot, since Merfolk is easier to attrition out over the long game than Goblins.

It's similar for other creature decks, a speedbump, but one that can be overcome. However, Goblin, to my knowledge, really can't beat it without Taigas and grips. In which case you just need to slowroll a three on top, since CB lock should be somewhat easy to assemble once the beatdown ends.

Siege-gang Commander > Moat

Tinefol
01-31-2011, 05:56 AM
How do you deal with the merfolk match up with just BANT? So far I've only come up with extra spot removal with Path to Exile, but then they bring in Kira and it becomes really annoying. Do you use equipment to negate Kira? Thanks for your answer.

Preboard I'm just playing control, with Shackles and big blockers. Hierarch/Daze ensures that I'm not overrun early game and I just try to survive and establish some locks.

Postboard I add Needles, EE and Paths. Sometimes Dueling Grounds too. Seems to work, though I haven't run into Kira yet. I don't think its a good card to bgring for this match up though.

Amon Amarth
01-31-2011, 06:22 AM
Siege-gang Commander > Moat

And most Goblins decks should play at least 1 Sharpshooter main or side which is also pretty good vs Moat.

jin
01-31-2011, 09:11 AM
And most Goblins decks should play at least 1 Sharpshooter main or side which is also pretty good vs Moat.

Yeah, I know. I just wanted the dramatic effect and didn't want to cloud the fact that Seige-gang owns Moat.


Preboard I'm just playing control, with Shackles and big blockers. Hierarch/Daze ensures that I'm not overrun early game and I just try to survive and establish some locks.

Postboard I add Needles, EE and Paths. Sometimes Dueling Grounds too. Seems to work, though I haven't run into Kira yet. I don't think its a good card to bgring for this match up though.

I'm surprised you do so well with just Bant. Shackles has been quite bad in testing as Merrow Reejery untaps it. EE I hear is quite good against Merfolk though. As it kills Kira thus validating all of your spot removal again. I try to bring in the Path to Exiles and the Explosives, but I still find Needle difficult to use as Needling Wastelands/Mutavault/Vial slows me down quite a bit. However, I don't play Noble Hierarch, so maybe that is the difference. How much of each do you bring in? I usually play Llawan, Cephalid Empress + EE + Path to Exile, but I still have a tough time without Grim Lavamancer and Pyroblasts.

useL
01-31-2011, 10:00 AM
Sorry to interrupt your BANT-discussion here.

First poster after reading alot of CounterTop posts here. I have a question regarding sideboard/maindeck.

I play in a legacy league where there is atleast 30% CBTop with various builds. If I still want to run a CBTop deck, what should I add or remove from this deck to make it even better. The rest of the field concists of Thresh/Zoo/Aggro-decks with wasteland and fast creatures.

Spells: 32
4x Brainstorm
4x Counterbalance
4x Force of Will
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Swords to Plowshare
3x Firespout
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Elspeth Knight-Errant
3x Counterspell
3x Spell Snare

Creatures: 6
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Vendilion Clique

Lands: 22
4x Flooded Strand
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Tropical Island
3x Volcanic Island
2x Tundra
2x Island
1x Forest
1x Plain
1x Karakas
1x Scalding Tarn

Sideboard: 15
2x Pyroblast
2x Red elemental Blast
3x Krosan Grip
1x Hydroblast
1x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Grim Lavamancer
1x Firespout
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Pithing Needle


I would also appreciate some help with what I should sideboard out and in against what setups. I got into Legacy about 3 months ago and am still pretty new to its concept. Haven't played Magic actively for 10 years but I try to read alot here on the forum about other deck concepts.

Tinefol
01-31-2011, 10:13 AM
Well, they is to not let them overwhelm the board. If they do, you lose no matter what.
Needle doesn't slow you, it slows them. And yeah, Hierarch/Daze is the key to early game. Needle on vial + CB is pretty much a game win in early game.

I usually play 2-3 needle, 1-2 ee, 2 pte, 1 grounds. Peacekeeper also is a good tech, but I don't like it in other matches, so I've dropped him from my sb.

Shimi
01-31-2011, 12:50 PM
What do you consider silver-bullet green creatures in the goblins matchup? Or do you just mean bullet creatures in general, but running zenith gives you more goyfs against goblins?

Did not finished my tests but more than 4 Goyfs are really good against goblins, it stalls goblins and finish fast after firespout.
The bullet creatures for me are(qasali, RWM and KotR), and I'm not sure if I should play a trygon or another guy.. as I said i'm just testing things.

PS:Just add a basic forest and be careful with rishadan ports.
I will try to test some match or even play a tournament this or the next weekend.

jin
01-31-2011, 08:26 PM
Sorry to interrupt your BANT-discussion here.

First poster after reading alot of CounterTop posts here. I have a question regarding sideboard/maindeck.

I play in a legacy league where there is atleast 30% CBTop with various builds. If I still want to run a CBTop deck, what should I add or remove from this deck to make it even better. The rest of the field concists of Thresh/Zoo/Aggro-decks with wasteland and fast creatures.

Spells: 32
4x Brainstorm
4x Counterbalance
4x Force of Will
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Swords to Plowshare
3x Firespout
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Elspeth Knight-Errant
3x Counterspell
3x Spell Snare

Creatures: 6
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Vendilion Clique

Lands: 22
4x Flooded Strand
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Tropical Island
3x Volcanic Island
2x Tundra
2x Island
1x Forest
1x Plain
1x Karakas
1x Scalding Tarn

Sideboard: 15
2x Pyroblast
2x Red elemental Blast
3x Krosan Grip
1x Hydroblast
1x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Grim Lavamancer
1x Firespout
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Pithing Needle


I would also appreciate some help with what I should sideboard out and in against what setups. I got into Legacy about 3 months ago and am still pretty new to its concept. Haven't played Magic actively for 10 years but I try to read alot here on the forum about other deck concepts.

30% CBT?! Maindeck Trygon Preditor!!.. I don't think that's a bad plan.

median
01-31-2011, 10:00 PM
…list..


You might want to look at qasali pridemage as well as predator. Pridemage has the advantage of being more aggressive than predator and still dealing with counterbalance.
On a different note, has anyone looked at the new tezzeret in a CB shell? He seems pretty insane with a deck that uses top.

keys
01-31-2011, 10:03 PM
With Green Sun's Zenith, what will CounterTop Progenitus look like? Has anyone done any testing with it?

Here's a U/G list I made up, based somewhat on AJ Sacher's deck from SCG Kansas:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Trygon Predator
1 Progenitus

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
2 Ponder

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Forest
2 Dryad Arbor

22 blue spells.
11 green creatures (excluding Progenitus).
20 land.

Sideboard is undetermined, but will likely include more GSZ/NO targets.

I think dropping white is necessary in order to keep the blue and green spell counts high enough. Besides, Progenitus outmatches anything on the ground anyway.

What silver bullets would you include? I know Trygon Predator will be good as a 1-of. Anything else?

I might not want to play 2 Dryad Arbor, but that is subject to testing.

jin
01-31-2011, 11:32 PM
You might want to look at qasali pridemage as well as predator. Pridemage has the advantage of being more aggressive than predator and still dealing with counterbalance.
On a different note, has anyone looked at the new tezzeret in a CB shell? He seems pretty insane with a deck that uses top.

I think if he plays Firespout, playing Pridemage would be counter intuitive. If there is a lot of aggro in his metagame as well as CBT, I think going back to Kazuho's Supreme Blue is a viable option.

bokepa
02-01-2011, 05:22 AM
You might want to look at qasali pridemage as well as predator. Pridemage has the advantage of being more aggressive than predator and still dealing with counterbalance.
On a different note, has anyone looked at the new tezzeret in a CB shell? He seems pretty insane with a deck that uses top.

I don't know if i should post this here, or there is another threat for a deck like this but as you asked:

This is what im trying in MWS:

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical
1 Tundra
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Dust Bowl
1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Darksteel Citadel

3 Trinket Make

Control and manipulation
4 Force of Will
4 CounterBalance
4 Sensei Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Intuition
1 Life from the loam
1 Enlightened Tutor

Win conditions
2 Thopther Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Painter's Servant
1 Grindstone
1 Vedalken Shakles
3 Tezzeret

Utility and silver bullets
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Nihilit Spellbomb
1 Executioners Capsule
1 Dispellers Capsule
1 EE

The deck has 3 different win conditions: painting, thopther-sword, tezzeret himself while also having the cb lock and a lot of ways to find its key cards.

The deck is slow but if you survive early turns is very hard to beat it as you have answers to almost anything. Is very adaptable to anymeta as the silver bullets can change depending of what you expect but this are the more generalistic i've found. One important thing when doing the sivler bullet package is use bullets that are never dead or they cantrip.

You can also ignore the silver bullets part and go straight combo wich will make you faster but more vulnerable:
-5 silvers -1 Vedalken (never get out Bridge)
+2 Grindstone
+2 Painter Servant
+1 Sword of the meek
+1 Thopther Foundry
Maybe we can go full combo main and use all the silvers in the side, i have to test this more.

When playing the deck i would advise you to not use tezz with your win conditions unless you must have to as you dont have many and they need another especific card to win, being vulnerable to stop its no good. Lands or silver bullets are the best targets.

The majority of games you will won it on the spot with painters or do some tokens then ultimate tezz. You will find that you will need to use the 5/5 to block until you find a Bridge or a Shackles. the games where you can go agroo with 5/5 are rare.

With 3 trinkets and 1 ET, 4 Bs and 3 intuition you can establish any of the combos fast, just be sure you have ways to protect them or you can just win. Its almost always better to establish countertop and then go slowly for the win condition.

Pithing needle is main for a reason, use it wisely.

Cards that hurt you are trygon, qasali, krosan, aura of silence, serenity, leyline of sanctity, extirpate. The good thing is you have ansers for them all.

Sb is still in work but it will be something transformational like:

3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pyrexian Reworker (or whatever is called pithing on legs)
3 Master of Etherium
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Meekstone
1 Aether Spellbomb
4 Leyline of Sanctity

Tom T
02-01-2011, 08:21 AM
I don't know if i should post this here, or there is another threat for a deck like this but as you asked:
[list]


The CounterTop Thopter-thread is in the Established forum.

Anyway, I'm new to CounterTop and I'm in love with the Bant Aggro/Control version of it.

I read in this topic there's no point in splitting the types of countertop. I'm wondering why and if anyone knows where the Bant Aggro/Control version is discussed.

Thanks in advance,
Tom

Valtrix
02-01-2011, 09:49 AM
If you're playing bant aggro with counterbalance, then this is the thread. There ss another thread in the deck to beat forum for bant aggro without counterbalance if you do get interested in that. I am a little confused when you say that you read that "there's no point in splitting the types of countertop," but then ask for the proper thread for bant aggro. Did you mean the opposite? Anyway, the main distinctions for counterbalance come from countertop thopers, intuition countertop, and then most other versions are discussed here. The main distinction is that the first two types of countertops usually have such a different game plan that it starts to feel like a different deck.

DragoFireheart
02-01-2011, 11:02 AM
Why are people playing the bant version of countertop? It doesn't seem like it has a good combo matchup (thopters can easily tutor for CB ala Enlightened Tutor) and it seems like it loses to merfolk and goblins w/o some way to mass remove them.

Edit: as good of a combo matchup compared to other variants.

jin
02-01-2011, 10:16 PM
Why are people playing the bant version of countertop? It doesn't seem like it has a good combo matchup (thopters can easily tutor for CB ala Enlightened Tutor) and it seems like it loses to merfolk and goblins w/o some way to mass remove them.

Edit: as good of a combo matchup compared to other variants.

Bant has green, just no red.

Tom T
02-02-2011, 04:53 AM
If you're playing bant aggro with counterbalance, then this is the thread. There ss another thread in the deck to beat forum for bant aggro without counterbalance if you do get interested in that. I am a little confused when you say that you read that "there's no point in splitting the types of countertop," but then ask for the proper thread for bant aggro. Did you mean the opposite? Anyway, the main distinctions for counterbalance come from countertop thopers, intuition countertop, and then most other versions are discussed here. The main distinction is that the first two types of countertops usually have such a different game plan that it starts to feel like a different deck.

Thanks! I meant Bant Control (as they name it on deckcheck). It is basicly UGWr CounterTop, without the Firespout and with Noble Hierarch + extra creatures. For it has more creatures the gameplan differs from the most lists of this topic.

Elspeth + more creatures is this deck's way to deal with decks like Merfolk and Goblins (+ post-board Jitte etc).

The Bant Aggro thread banned Countertop, so I had nowhere else to post but here. I find it hard to believe there's no topic about a deck that went and still goes Top8 lots of times. (source: deckcheck.org/?x=8QRffj1h8QerWVF3erDB0YRfBunxOeroZCmXxOergCmXfjF3HwmXgCAKunerRfLWVrtun2MDB )

Tom

Bongo
02-02-2011, 04:15 PM
Has anybody played with the UW version of Adam Prosak? He had some success with it, and Vidianto Wijaya piloted it to Top8 of SCG San Juan. What do you like about that approach, what not?

DragoFireheart
02-02-2011, 07:07 PM
Has anybody played with the UW version of Adam Prosak? He had some success with it, and Vidianto Wijaya piloted it to Top8 of SCG San Juan. What do you like about that approach, what not?

What's the link to his deck?

_erbs_
02-02-2011, 09:14 PM
Hello
Here is the deck by Adam Prosak

This deck was played on 17. October 2010 at StarCityGames.com
Legacy Open 17/10/2010 and reached the 5. place.

Maindeck:
Creatures (4):
2 Trinket Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

Others (34):
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ponder
2 Predict
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vedalken Shackles

Lands (22):
4 Flooded Strand
7 Island
1 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Seat of the Synod
4 Tundra

Sideboard:
1 Cursed Scroll
3 Hydroblast
2 Jötun Grunt
1 Moat
1 Peacekeeper
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Spell Snare
2 Submerge
1 Tormod's Crypt

Its main deck is good against combo and control decks because it has lots of cantrips, but i feel it will have a hard time vs aggro decks. Against counter and discard decks the deck will also find it hard to win bec of its few win conditions. Pioting this deck will take alot of playtesting and patience to use it properly.

And oh by the way decks that runs Phyrexian Crusader or Thun, the last troll will give a control deck something to grin and most likely loose that game when it resolves... something to thing about for those control freaks..., funny as it seems but WoG might see action once again hahaha

Bongo
02-03-2011, 04:00 AM
Thanks for posting the list!



Its main deck is good against combo and control decks because it has lots of cantrips, but i feel it will have a hard time vs aggro decks.

That was my impression, too. Maybe something like:

-2 Trinket Mage
-1 Pithing Needle
+1 Vendilion Clique
+1 Vedalken Shackles
+1 Repeal

would help a little against aggro?
Trinket Mage feels a bit clunky to me. Maybe a singleton Elspeth in the maindeck?

rancOr_
02-03-2011, 11:30 AM
I have tested that U/W list back then,and like expected it just isnt good enough vs aggro,atleast not maindeck.
U need to have good hands to beat aggro consistently. I would consider running maybe moat in the main or something,but even then its too fragile. I think u are better of playing 4c or bant. Its a good deck sure,but nog good enough vs the aggro heavy meta atm,no matter how u look at it.

Arsenal
02-12-2011, 06:15 PM
Just picked up my playset of Tundra, so I now can enjoy the UWGr CounterTop piloting that others have up to this point. A few things I've observed in preparation of dropping 300 on the playset:

GerryT's San Jose list reminds me a lot of the Supreme Blue lists that gained some traction back in late 2009. Swap Trygon for Jace, swap RMW for Clique, and swap Daze for Spell Pierce/Counterspell, and it's very similar in style and approach. Thoughts on the Supreme Blue shell and it's impact on the current meta?

DFY889
02-13-2011, 08:52 PM
Just picked up my playset of Tundra, so I now can enjoy the UWGr CounterTop piloting that others have up to this point. A few things I've observed in preparation of dropping 300 on the playset:

GerryT's San Jose list reminds me a lot of the Supreme Blue lists that gained some traction back in late 2009. Swap Trygon for Jace, swap RMW for Clique, and swap Daze for Spell Pierce/Counterspell, and it's very similar in style and approach. Thoughts on the Supreme Blue shell and it's impact on the current meta?

Well it did win SCG Indianapolis. Didn't play clique; winner and GerryT opted for a trinket mage package to beat vial decks with a maindeck pithing needle.

_erbs_
02-15-2011, 11:08 PM
hello guys
what do think about this build. suggestions and comments are welcome thanks !

LANDS [20]
4 tropical island
4 tundra
1 island
3 misty rainforest
2 flooded strand
2 windswept heath
4 wasteland

CREATURES [11]
2 trinket mage
2 dreads
4 tarmo
3 kotr

SPELLS [29]
4 counterbalance
3 sensei's top
4 brainstorm
4 stp
2 xplosives
4 fow
4 daze
4 stifle

firstshot
02-16-2011, 10:56 AM
hello guys
what do think about this build. suggestions and comments are welcome thanks !

LANDS [20]
4 tropical island
4 tundra
1 island
3 misty rainforest
2 flooded strand
2 windswept heath
4 wasteland

CREATURES [11]
2 trinket mage
2 dreads
4 tarmo
3 kotr

SPELLS [29]
4 counterbalance
3 sensei's top
4 brainstorm
4 stp
2 xplosives
4 fow
4 daze
4 stifle

How do you plan on beating merfolk or goblins? This deck seems like a cross between bant Ctop and control Ctop. I think you want Noble's if your playing with KOTR and 4 daze. Also less than 4 tops is a mistake plain and simple.

Arsenal
02-16-2011, 06:48 PM
For those running the 2 Spell Snare/2 Counterspell config instead of 4 Daze, why the switch?

Nidd
02-16-2011, 06:54 PM
For those running the 2 Spell Snare/2 Counterspell config instead of 4 Daze, why the switch?
CounterTop is Control.
Control wants to make it's landdrops and develop a manabase.
Daze sets you back a turn.

See the conflict?

Arsenal
02-16-2011, 07:02 PM
For the longest time, 4 Daze was pretty standard in CounterTop decks. Spell Snare and Counterspell were available then, and they weren't played, or if they were, Daze was still present. I'm just interested in knowing why people completely dropped Daze after being successful with it for so long.

rogue.nine
02-16-2011, 07:05 PM
To expand on Nidds answer a bit:
Yeah in general CB shelled decks are heading in a more controlling direction lately with more hard counters/wraths/mana and less dudes and less in an agro control direction ala Natural Order CB.

In the latter daze is nice cause you're almost playing the tempo game + it protects you when you tap out for your pseudo combo kill. In the former you want less conditional counters and more mana, because you're aiming for the late game.

Hence the configuration in those sort of lists. I suppose the majority of people at SGC opens feel that NO is to vulnerable and more firespouts is better.

Arsenal
02-16-2011, 07:16 PM
Did Jace push CB decks overthe edge towards a more controllish approach? Because like I said (and decklists from previous years validate this), for the longest time, Daze was a staple. Then, it seemed once people started running Planeswalkers, they would rather spend 4 mana on Jace than 4 mana on NO. Fair assessment, or did the change run deeper than just "omfg, we have a stupid 4 mana blue planeswalker now?"

keys
02-16-2011, 07:55 PM
Jace is a big part of it, because now there is a reason to ramp up to 4 mana.

ivanpei
02-16-2011, 09:15 PM
In my opinion, old counter-top decks have very low CC cards. Almost the entire deck outside of Force was 1cc/2cc. Daze setting you a land drop back was not a problem as your spells are so cheap. Also, old countertop decks have plenty of dudes like goyf, nimble mongoose etc and was fairly "aggro". When you are aggro, you are pressuring your opponent to cast spells to stop the bleeding, thus playing into daze. Then the creature arms races started, Wild necatl, KOTR and Rhox war monk became common in legacy. Nimble mongoose became crap because it was too small.

Countertop had to play bigger and splashier spells like firespout, rhox, etc so Daze's drawback became very apparent. Also by cutting mongoose, countertop lost ALL it's aggro-ness. Opponents are now under no pressure to win the game fast before dying to mongoose/goyf beats so they can afford to play around daze. Lastly Jace the Superman was printed and that was the final nail on the coffin. Countertop became big and splashy pure control after that and Daze's drawback was too heavy so it was replaced with snare/counterspell.

Tinefol
02-17-2011, 03:48 AM
Daze is still awesome, if you're running Noble Hierarch. Personally I run all of it: Daze/Counterspell/KoTR/Jace and it works just fine.

Tom T
02-17-2011, 09:12 AM
Hey guys!

I really love to play CBTop but my meta is against me. There are tons of Goblin decks (~25%), Zoo decks (20%), some Merfolks and Dark Horizons. Next to that there are some combo decks like Solitaire which CBTop overall has a great match-up against.

In this meta I really love to play CBTop and I wonder what I have to include so I have a great pre-board against the Goblin & Zoo decks. Normally CBTop has a lot of sideboard-options against these decks, but I want a good pre-board against those decks and am willing to weaken the control-matchup pre-board.

I figured there are some things I can include in a 4c CBTop list like;
- Firespout
- Trinket Mage + Pithing Needle (which makes including post-board grave-hate easier)
- Perimeter Captain
- Extra Fatties (like RWM and KoTR)
- Elspeth, Knight-Errant (too slow? I doubt it's better than the other card choices)
- Vedalken Shackles (too slow?)

Do you guys have any ideas on tweaking the deck to this meta?

Thanks in advance,
Tom

Misplayer
02-17-2011, 09:15 AM
For me personally, it was two things. Back in the day (i.e. 1.5 years ago or thereabouts), I played Daze largely to push my Counterbalance through in the mirror and against other blue "aggro-control" decks, as the format was largely CounterTop, Dreadstill and Canadian Thresh. Aggro decks were in the meta but not the huge component of it like they are now. Notably, Daze is absolutely AWFUL against Zoo if you're playing Top, go. But there are a lot more decks now running 16+ threats than there were so many months ago.

jackbohlen
02-17-2011, 10:47 PM
Quick question for CounterTop players: why don't there seem to be any decks that pay both Aether Vial and a CounterTop package? I mean, most Top decks use efficient creatures already, and Vial just make those creatures more efficient and lets you cheat them into play while also leaving mana up for counterspells/removal. PLUS, Enlightened Tutor and Trinket Mage can both search up either one. That's some versatility right there...

Arsenal
02-17-2011, 11:01 PM
Vial decks typically need 20+ creatures, with a proper distribution along the mana curve I might add, in order to effectively use Aether Vial. Goblins, Merfolk, Junk & Taxes, etc. CounterTop decks don't run nearly enough creatures.

TUMBLES
02-18-2011, 08:20 PM
What's the right way to use Jace?

I generally +2 on my opponent if I have control of the board and/or they are topdecking - though I won't ever use it on opponent if they have a top in play - (or if Jace needs the loyalty boost for whatever reason), +0 to grab advantage and get into situation to start pumping jace, and -1 any time it's necessary. Is this generally the correct method?

Tammit67
02-18-2011, 10:08 PM
What's the right way to use Jace?

I generally +2 on my opponent if I have control of the board and/or they are topdecking - though I won't ever use it on opponent if they have a top in play - (or if Jace needs the loyalty boost for whatever reason), +0 to grab advantage and get into situation to start pumping jace, and -1 any time it's necessary. Is this generally the correct method?

Just don't forget if you want to Fateseal meaningfully against an opponent with top, just target yourself to give him a boost, and yourself a (minor) filter effect.

mchainmail
02-18-2011, 10:44 PM
Just don't forget if you want to Fateseal meaningfully against an opponent with top, just target yourself to give him a boost, and yourself a (minor) filter effect.

Same thing for opponents with Loam active.

TUMBLES
02-19-2011, 01:14 PM
Just don't forget if you want to Fateseal meaningfully against an opponent with top, just target yourself to give him a boost, and yourself a (minor) filter effect.

Yes, that too :)

neckfire
02-19-2011, 10:07 PM
Siege-gang Commander > Moat

so what you're saying is because a 1 card outer is good vs moat you should never play it.
well damn krosan grip owns the hell out of counterbalance we shouldnt play it.burn owns jace we shouldnt play it.red elemental blast own fow we shouldnt play it.STP owns goyf we shouldnt play it
oh i know wasteland owns dual lands so we need to all play monocolor decks.

Jiaozy
02-20-2011, 05:03 AM
so what you're saying is because a 1 card outer is good vs moat you should never play it.
well damn krosan grip owns the hell out of counterbalance we shouldnt play it.burn owns jace we shouldnt play it.red elemental blast own fow we shouldnt play it.STP owns goyf we shouldnt play it
oh i know wasteland owns dual lands so we need to all play monocolor decks.Moat shouldn't be played because it does little to nothing in too many MUs.
Qasali Pridemage, SGC, Coralhelm Commander and Krosan Grips are enough of a problem as is, in game 1 Humility is extremely better than Moat, preventing things like random wins off a SGC, Qasali Pridemage on your Moat, Sharpshooter that nullifies your Thopter combo and such things.
It is also pretty much an auto-win against Goblin in G1.

Frankly, even if I own a couple Moats, I'm not playing them since Qasali Pridemage has seen print because they're almost useless against the MU you'd want them to be good because, for the same mana, Humility also turns off all their Enters Battlefield triggers.

Tom T
02-20-2011, 07:08 AM
Hey guys!

Moat wouldn't result in extra problems; Qasali Pridemage, Krosan Grip and Trygon Predator are already a threat since you play CounterTop.
However, against the match-ups you play them for you wouldn't get it into play; Goblins and Merfolks manadenial makes it really hard to get to four mana. Next to that those decks normally put a clock on you.

With our meta being full of Goblins, Zoo, Merfolk and Dark Horizons I've build a list for that meta. It's Ugw CTop, because I think the Firespouts are like 'pissing on the sun' against goblins, merfolk and zoo (for Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary remain unaffected). Also, Firesout usually takes a turn while Noble Hierarch accelerates your plan.

I know CBTop players here are very sceptic about the Bant-lists in regards of fighting aggro, but just ask yourself;
- How many times has Firespout won you the game against Merfolk, Goblins or Zoo?
- How many times did you have Firespout in your hand doing nothing?
- How many times did you wish that Firespout was a Path to Exile?

I'm sure you can think of some games Firespout gave you (I know I did), but does it really roflstomp Merfolk, Goblins and Zoo like you wished?
I was dissapointed by Firespout, or rather frustrated, since Goblins just played a Goblin Ringleader or Siege-Gang Commander and still took the game.

My Bant-list looks like this;

2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei’s Divining Top

CMC:
1: 16
2: 15
3: 5
4: 2
5: 4

U-count: 22


// Sideboard

2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Krosan Grip
3 Path to Exile
2 engineered explosives
1 enlightened tutor
1 tormod's crypt
1 relic of progenitus


I know it still doesn't own Merfolk, Goblins and Zoo but it has a lot more creatures, which makes boarding Umezawa's Jitte a lot more viable.

Just my two cents. Comments are welcome.
~Tom

Deady
02-27-2011, 05:54 AM
@ Tom T

The Jitte/Stoneforge plan is a solid choice in Bant Control. However, it's important to know whether you choose for Planeswalkers (Jace/Elspeth) or the Natural Order package.

Have you thought about Dueling Grounds in the SB? It could be a great addition to the SB for your meta (next to Stoneforge/Jitte).

Jiaozy
02-27-2011, 01:40 PM
I know CBTop players here are very sceptic about the Bant-lists in regards of fighting aggro, but just ask yourself;
- How many times has Firespout won you the game against Merfolk, Goblins or Zoo?
- How many times did you have Firespout in your hand doing nothing?
- How many times did you wish that Firespout was a Path to Exile?- Too many, I can't count them.
- Against ANT and Sneak Attack a load of times, but with a careful use of Brainstorm it's hardly ever a problem. But most Legacy players like to waste their Brainstorm so it can be a problem.
- Never.

The reasons to play red are far more than just Firespout (which, BTW, is godly against tribal in case you didn't notice).
Grim Lavamancer is GODLY against both Merfolk and Goblins and against Zoo it does it's fare share of work by keeping their Exalted count low or by eating a Bolt/StP/PtE.
Then you have options for your sideboard like Red Elemental Blast, Ancient Grudge and I've seen people play Fire//Ice in the MD since they all help a LOT in MUs we have problem against. Reb is huge against Merfolk, along with StP, Lavamancer and Firespout you have way too many removal/counterspells even for them (barring silly starts with double/triple Standstill).
Against Gobbo the Grudges are very helpful in dealing with their Vials, Needles (Needle on Top is VERY bad for this deck), Relic, Crypts, Chalice and the like, so I usually have a couple in my SB since they're also good against Stax and their variants, Maverick, Landstill and random decks alike.
I was dissapointed by Firespout, or rather frustrated, since Goblins just played a Goblin Ringleader or Siege-Gang Commander and still took the game.Those, tho, are the only two cards you have to save your counters for (barring a turn 1 Lackey), so you should have at least a Force/Counterspell in hand.
Vial decks in game one are a problem nonetheless, but with Firespout and Lavamancer you can at least try and put up a fight.
With straight Bant you cannot and just get owned left and right because you're giving up answers like Firespout, Grudge, REB and Lavamancer for a few critter more.
IMO that's not the way to go.
A lone Lavamancer against Merfolk is FAR more threatening than your whole creature base.

Tom T
02-27-2011, 02:50 PM
- Too many, I can't count them.
- Against ANT and Sneak Attack a load of times, but with a careful use of Brainstorm it's hardly ever a problem. But most Legacy players like to waste their Brainstorm so it can be a problem.
- Never.

The reasons to play red are far more than just Firespout (which, BTW, is godly against tribal in case you didn't notice).
Grim Lavamancer is GODLY against both Merfolk and Goblins and against Zoo it does it's fare share of work by keeping their Exalted count low or by eating a Bolt/StP/PtE.
Then you have options for your sideboard like Red Elemental Blast, Ancient Grudge and I've seen people play Fire//Ice in the MD since they all help a LOT in MUs we have problem against. Reb is huge against Merfolk, along with StP, Lavamancer and Firespout you have way too many removal/counterspells even for them (barring silly starts with double/triple Standstill).
Against Gobbo the Grudges are very helpful in dealing with their Vials, Needles (Needle on Top is VERY bad for this deck), Relic, Crypts, Chalice and the like, so I usually have a couple in my SB since they're also good against Stax and their variants, Maverick, Landstill and random decks alike.Those, tho, are the only two cards you have to save your counters for (barring a turn 1 Lackey), so you should have at least a Force/Counterspell in hand.
Vial decks in game one are a problem nonetheless, but with Firespout and Lavamancer you can at least try and put up a fight.
With straight Bant you cannot and just get owned left and right because you're giving up answers like Firespout, Grudge, REB and Lavamancer for a few critter more.
IMO that's not the way to go.
A lone Lavamancer against Merfolk is FAR more threatening than your whole creature base.

Convinced :wink:

Pascal3000
02-28-2011, 10:50 AM
Hey guys!

I really love to play CBTop but my meta is against me. There are tons of Goblin decks (~25%), Zoo decks (20%), some Merfolks and Dark Horizons. Next to that there are some combo decks like Solitaire which CBTop overall has a great match-up against.

In this meta I really love to play CBTop and I wonder what I have to include so I have a great pre-board against the Goblin & Zoo decks. Normally CBTop has a lot of sideboard-options against these decks, but I want a good pre-board against those decks and am willing to weaken the control-matchup pre-board.

I figured there are some things I can include in a 4c CBTop list like;
- Firespout
- Trinket Mage + Pithing Needle (which makes including post-board grave-hate easier)
- Perimeter Captain
- Extra Fatties (like RWM and KoTR)
- Elspeth, Knight-Errant (too slow? I doubt it's better than the other card choices)
- Vedalken Shackles (too slow?)

Do you guys have any ideas on tweaking the deck to this meta?

Thanks in advance,
Tom

How is that meta "against you"?

While ill admit that Goblins is slightly negative (probably around 40%), Zoo is probably one of your strongest matchups. Especially if they're on Cat Sligh, Firespout just makes the matchup really really lopsided. Depending on their build its somewhere between 55 to 70% in your favor.
Merfolk is one of those matchups that i often see CounterBalance players whine about, but never really have trouble with myself. Maybe the Merfolk players i face are just ridiculously bad and its really not a good matchup, but then again, i heard GerryT say something along the lines of "Me and Paulo (Vitor Damo da Rosa) have never lost a match to Merfolk", so there has to be some truth to my perception of the matchup.
As i dont run Trinket Mage / Needle i usually just board out Counterbalances and attrition them out with tons of spot removal. The typical Tarmogoyf Wall into Firespout plan still applies.

FieryBalrog
03-01-2011, 12:23 PM
CB matchup vs Zoo also depends on whether it's Zenith Zoo (which is much better vs CB).

SpikeyMikey
03-01-2011, 06:11 PM
How is that meta "against you"?

While ill admit that Goblins is slightly negative (probably around 40%), Zoo is probably one of your strongest matchups. Especially if they're on Cat Sligh, Firespout just makes the matchup really really lopsided. Depending on their build its somewhere between 55 to 70% in your favor.
Merfolk is one of those matchups that i often see CounterBalance players whine about, but never really have trouble with myself. Maybe the Merfolk players i face are just ridiculously bad and its really not a good matchup, but then again, i heard GerryT say something along the lines of "Me and Paulo (Vitor Damo da Rosa) have never lost a match to Merfolk", so there has to be some truth to my perception of the matchup.
As i dont run Trinket Mage / Needle i usually just board out Counterbalances and attrition them out with tons of spot removal. The typical Tarmogoyf Wall into Firespout plan still applies.

Sounds like you beat everything. So whyisnt the deck dominating major tournaments? Why don't we see 50% CB in every SCG Open? I know Gerry is always in attendance; he's their posterboy.

CB Top has weaknesses. Saying that you beat everything doesn't lead to improvements it leads to stagnation and obsolescence.

Misplayer
03-02-2011, 09:15 AM
How is that meta "against you"?

Aether Vial anyone? ...Rhymes with Aether Vial...

I can't even play CounterTop in my meta any more. 25% Emrakul, 25% Goblins, 20% Affinity...plus Junk/Merfolk/Zoo/Lands mixed in. Nearly every deck I play against can ignore Counterbalance through fast pressure, higher CMC curves, or Aether Vial. It feels like I spend every match trying to stabilize in the early turns and cursing the Counterbalance that's clogging up my hand while I'm looking for answers.

Arsenal
03-02-2011, 04:02 PM
I agree. Anytime Aether Vial is a major player in the meta, blue-based control/aggro-control decks will ultimately suffer (unless you happen to be Merfolk). Counter-Top doesn't take as big of a hit as traditional draw-go style control decks do, but it's still a beating when they open with t1 Vial w/ counter backup when you've mulled to 6 and still didn't find FoW.

Rune
03-02-2011, 04:25 PM
Aether Vial anyone? ...Rhymes with Aether Vial...

I can't even play CounterTop in my meta any more. 25% Emrakul, 25% Goblins, 20% Affinity...plus Junk/Merfolk/Zoo/Lands mixed in. Nearly every deck I play against can ignore Counterbalance through fast pressure, higher CMC curves, or Aether Vial. It feels like I spend every match trying to stabilize in the early turns and cursing the Counterbalance that's clogging up my hand while I'm looking for answers.

Green Sun's Zenith is another nail in the coffin. Zoo can actually put up a fight when they have this card :(

Ajsmirnov
03-03-2011, 03:54 PM
Hi!

I played 4C Countertop at 2 different tournaments last weekend and had good results. Want to share my report:

Tournament №1, Russian Legacy Championship, 105 players, top 8.

My list:
2 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest

3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trinket Mage

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Firespout
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
It's 61 and 1 Lavamancer can be cut to play 60.

SB
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Krosan Grip
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Firespout
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ravenous Trap
2 Sower of Temptation

We were expecting lots of Zoo, Merfolks and Goblins, Vial-Stoneforge decks and lots of Dredge. Many thanks to my friends for all kinds of help to prepare for the tournament - Max Apletalin, Ivan Alexandrov, Alexander Tsvirko, Artem Gab and many other.

So, short report:

Round 1 - lost to Lands with KotR's main(he won the tournament). Made lots of mistakes during game, didn't have SB plan.
0-1

Round 2 - win against BGW Rock. g1 Top-Balance lock got him, Jace finished. g2 I played fast, attacking with goyfs and shooting with lavamancers.
1-1

Round 3 - win against Bant Countertop. g1 was easy, his 3/3 KotR died to Firespout, then I locked him. g2 I boarded Red Blasts and he didn't resolve a spell.
2-1

Round 4 - win against Reanimator. g1 I countered his Careful Study, then locked him. g2 I also had a Top-Balance lock + Trinket fetched me Tormod's Crypt. Goyfs finished things quickly.
3-1

Round 5 - win against Ichorid. I was lucky to win g1 because my opponent mull'ed to 5. g2 he Thoughtseized self to discard Troll, I played Ravenous Trap after Breackthrough.
4-1

Round 6 - win against Dmitry Nikitin playing Nikitin Loam, as always :)
Both g1 and g2 I had a quick lock. g1 I stabilized with Jace at 2 life, g2 I played Sower of Temptation to steal his KotR and beat with Knight.
5-1

Round 7 - ID (with Show and Tell player, we both top8)

Top8 - lost to Dmitry Verevkin with Next Level Threshold.
g1 he attacked with 3 Mishra's while I was playing Brainstorms and using Top. Pithing Needle stopped Factory-assault. My Goyfs and my Swords to his Goyfs both resolve.
g2 I made a serious mistake. He had 2 Goyfs, I had 1. I decided to resolve Jace, bounce his Goyf and then Brainstorm-Top to find Swords. Instead I should Trinketed for Explosives, blow the board, then play Jace. This coasted me match because g3 I mull to 6, keep 1 land with Top and Brainstorm, my land was Wastelanded(saw 0 Wastelands g1 and g2), then topdecked fetch was Stifled with Daze backup. No more lands and I loose.

Tournament №2. Legacy Master's League, 25 best Russian players, Top8.

First, I changed my list because there were going to be less agro and much more control and combo on League then on Championship.
MB:
-1 Forest; +1 Island(2nd); -2 Firespout; +2 Vendillion Clique
The new SB was:
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Firespout
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Price of Progress(can suddenly kill Lands.deck)

Round 1 - win against Elves combo.
g1 and g2 I quickly gathered Top + Balance. g1 killed with Clique, g2 with Jace.
1-0

Round 2 - loose to Enchantress. I had no sideboard and didn't found 3cc on top when needed. Both games was killed with Words of War.
1-1

Round 3 - win against Vladimir Mishustin playing Ichorid.
Vladimir is the best Ichorid player I know. g1 I was destroyed fast. I FoW'ed Careful Study №1, but Study № 2 and 3 resolved. All 4 Narcomoebas were revealed and so on..
g2 I had 2 Relics in my starting 7. Saw no Needle's from Vladimir. He tried to stop my attacks with hardcasted Stinkweed Imp, but by that time I had Sower of Temptation ready in hand.
g3 he dredges slowly, reveals only 1 Narcomoeba, I attack fast with 2 Goyfs 5/6.Provoke his Cabal Therapy misplay, bluffing Firespout in hand. It gave me one more turn and one more attack. A topdecked Relic sealed the win.
2-1

Round 4 - draw with Jace LandDeed

g1 he snares my Balance, Deeds my board 3 times and kills with Mishra's. It all took 30+ minutes and, understanding that something crazy is needed to win, I board in my Price of Progress. Damn, it worked :) 3 minutes before the end of the round I play Price with Counterspell backup and it resolves, 4 damage to me, 16 to opponent.
2-1-1

Round 5 - Dmitry Verevkin with Next Level Threshold (same opponent as top8 yesterday).

g1 he plays Clique, I play my Clique in response, put his Jace bottom, then Fow his Clique. 3/1 faerie killed him, Goyh helped later.
g2 his draw was stronger, he smashes me with few Goyfs, Swording mine.
g3 I had all. Top-Balance lock, Clique, Tarmogoyf, REB his Jace, resolve my Jace... but not enough time! I needed one more turn to attack for the last points of life. Dmitry kindly concedes to me, thanks him again.
3-1-1

Top8 - loose to Dmitry Nikitin playing Loam

Dmitry's revenge took place as he wins 2-1. g1 I lock him and beat with Tarms, g2 I have 2 Relics, but he has 2 Tarmogoyfs, 3 Knights with REB backup. and g3 he Wast-Loam locks me and I cannot cast my Vendillion Clique and Sower of Temptation.
I wish my friend good luck and was glad to see he wins that League later.

Please feel free to comment my list.

Myself I think that red colour is must, it gives us very important REB, Firespout and Lavamancer. AEther Vial is not the greatest problem. 2nd Explosives mainboard and 2nd Needle SB, together with Krosan Grips, should solve it. But the deck simply cannot win against multiple wasteland or wasteland+stifle. Or I am doing something wrong?

AggroSteve
03-04-2011, 04:38 AM
i would reccomend cutting the basic forest main, and adding a 2nd basic island instead, that way you can fetch for double basic-island and shouldn't have that much problems against wasteland.... 22 lands should be fine as well

GoldenCid
03-07-2011, 10:02 AM
Is it ridiculous to include painter-stone combo inside here?

Mulligan
03-07-2011, 12:03 PM
I have been having plenty of success with this list:

4 FoW
4 Counterbalance
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
2 Jace, The Mindsculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords To Plowshares
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 EE
1 Grindstone
4 Sensei’s Divining Top

4 Goyf
2 Painter’s Servant
2 Trinket Mage
2 Vendillion Clique

1 Ruins
1 Seat Of The Synod
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest

SB:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
3 Engineered Plague
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles

Obviously most people prefer red rather than black for firespout, but my point is that PainterStone slots very easily into the deck if you wanted to, and gives you another way to kill quickly if necessary. It's also good to be able to draw hands that can just combo kill with counter back-up against tough MUs, or give your head a rest from control-decision-trees over a long tournament.

Wiseman4
03-07-2011, 12:05 PM
If explosives is getting run why not try academy ruins? Would it be because with 4 colors the mana base wouldn't be consistent enough?

Deady
03-08-2011, 07:44 AM
@Ajsmirnov

Congrats with your top 8 finish.

The red colour is indeed a must and playing 4 colours just makes you vulnerable to opposing Wastelands/Stifles; that's the downside.

Looking at your list, I see you're only playing with four 3-drops; I'd add at least 2 more 3-drops to make proper use of the CB/Top lock. When you lay down CB/Top you still want enough 3-drops in the deck to abuse the lock, apart from the two 3-drops you already drew in your starting hand. Personally I play with seven 3-drops.

I strongly recommend cutting the Dazes from your list and put in 2 Spell Snares and another Counterspell. From there it's up to personal preference and what you'd like to get from your deck.

GoldenCid
03-08-2011, 10:39 AM
If explosives is getting run why not try academy ruins? Would it be because with 4 colors the mana base wouldn't be consistent enough?

I think that running painter-stone pack academy ruins is a must not depending on the mana base. But, if you look carefully there is a ruins in the list.
I'm not pretty sure is black splash worth....blue and green are very good. White is understable but black just for side stuff, if don't know.

Wiseman4
03-08-2011, 11:54 AM
I am talking about the WRUG versions or just the WUB versions

datanaga
03-10-2011, 08:46 AM
Hi all,

this is list I'm currently playing:

STONEFORGE COUNTER-TOP

2x flooded strand
2x windswept heath
4x misty rainforest
1x plains
1x forest
2x island
3x tundra
4x tropical island
-------------------
lands: 19

2x stoneforge mystic
2x quasali pridemage
1x trygon predator
3x rhox war monk
4x noble hierarch
4x tarmogoyf
-------------------
creatures: 16

4x swords to plowshares
4x force of will
3x daze
4x brainstorm
1x umezawa's jitte
1x sword of fire and ice
4x counterbalance
4x sensei's divining top
-------------------
25

sideboard:

3x path to exile
3x pithing needle
3x spell pierce
2x engineered explosives - could be tormod's crypt in ichorid infected meta
2x llawan, cephalid empress - personal choice in my merfolk infected meta, one llawan could be sword of light and shadow
2x krosan grip
-------------------
15

I played Natural Order instead of Stoneforge package before, but I dont like NO or Progenitus blindly fliped with Counterbalance and also Perish is presented a lot in my meta.

Any thoughts how list could be improved?
I'm not sure about Daze, but it privides me a huge advantage to other counterbalance lists.
Game 1 against Merfolk is usually pain, but games 2 and 3 are easy.

BTW I have no Jaces and dont want to buy them now.

ivanpei
03-10-2011, 09:38 AM
@Ajsmirnov

Congratulations! Can I see the other T8 lists? I'm very curious. Cheers!

Tinefol
03-10-2011, 10:37 AM
@ivanpei http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5700

datanaga
03-16-2011, 07:14 AM
Hi,
on Saturday I finished in TOP4 at tournament (79 people) wih almost the same list I sent last week.
I only replaced 1x war monk in main for 1x trygon and played with this sideboard:

3x path to exile
3x pithing needle
4x tormod's crypt
2x spell pierce
1x rhox war monk
1x sword of light and shadow
1x llawan cephalid empress


round 1 ZOO
won 2:0

round 2 elves (oldschool list with natural order in sideboard instead of leylines:/)
lost 1:2

round 3 affinity
won 2:0

round 4 painter stone + bomberman combo
won 2:1

round 5 monoblack (with tombstalkers, death's shadows, ratchet bombs)
won 2:0

round 6 dark horizons (BWG junk)
won 2:0

round 7 sneak attack with show and tell
ID

top8:
UWR counterbalance (firespouts, jaces, explosives, swords, thoptersword)
won 2:0

total: 6:1:1

in TOP4 we split prizes, so I won Bayou and Volcanic Island.
I was happy, that I did't meet any vial deck, because I had terrible matchut against BW tempo and thought game against well builded merfolk deck (I only had 2x rhox main a 1x llawan in side).

Ajsmirnov
03-31-2011, 02:00 AM
round 1 ZOO
won 2:0


Congrats, nice results!
Btw can you please tell more about Zoo match? Was it classic or big zoo? I used to have troubles playing against both when they board Krosan Grips or Choke.


@ivanpei: sorry, was away form thread for some time. Tinefol gave the link :)

ivanpei
03-31-2011, 04:04 AM
No worries, thanks Tinefol and Ajsmirnov. My friend Oleg, who also works in Malaysia T8ed that tournament with ANT. We test whenever he is in Malaysia. I wanted to see the lists of the decks that were in the T8. After playing with his ANT list, I will always play at least 2 tops in my combo decks. Cheers.

Ajsmirnov
03-31-2011, 04:47 AM
offtop: yeah, he is a good player. always top-8 when I see him at a tournament. I am PM-ing you one nice picture from our legacy champ.

Deady
04-20-2011, 03:48 PM
Any thoughts on the new Mental Misstep? It seems like the card has great potentional for 4-colored Supreme Blue builds to run it over Spell Snare in the maindeck.

It's especially great against Stifle and Vial, 2 problematic cards for the deck to deal with. As an added bonus it's able to protect Lavamancer, Clique or Goyf from getting killed.

Creatures (8):

2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique

Other Spells (30):

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
3 Firespout
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (22):

2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Karakas

Shimi
04-20-2011, 10:14 PM
Any thoughts on the new Mental Misstep? It seems like the card has great potentional for 4-colored Supreme Blue builds to run it over Spell Snare in the maindeck.
[/I]

The card is too insane.. it can solve many problems but it can also create a new one.. we need to see how other decks are goinf to react to this card.

Tom T
04-28-2011, 06:57 AM
Guys! Before I made this post I 'WHOO-HOO'd for like half an hour, whiping the dust from my old Supreme Blue deck, deeply hidden in my closet.

Mental Misstep is going to make Control top tier again.
- A new way to cope with all the vial decks out there.
- Zoo's first turn Wild Nacatl isn't a pain in the A anymore.
- Combo will have another threat to deal with.
- Mental Misstep can counter opposing Mental Missteps.
- If Mental Misstep will see play in other decks, CounterTop becomes more powerfull.


The list I made:

2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trinket Mage

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Counterbalance

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
2 Counterspell

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Firespout
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain

//sideboard
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Firespout
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Spell Pierce

I'd love to cut something to put the 4th Top back in.
Suggestions are welcome.

~Tom

DFY889
04-29-2011, 08:09 PM
I'd probably shave the trinket mage package entirely since the main reason for it was getting to play maindeck needle/explosives to gain percentage points on vial decks. Mental misstep and firespout should be enough for the vial decks.

Maybe something like:
-2 Trinket Mage
-1 EE
+1 Top
+2 V-Clique (want a three for counterbalance, and I like Clique against the combo resurgence).

Deady
04-30-2011, 12:15 PM
@ Tom T:

Please take a look at my 'Mental Misstep' list on page 98. I don't think it can get any better for a Supreme Blue build...Misstep is there to protect Lavamancer, Clique or Goyf, to counter an opposing Misstep, to counter Vial and last but not least to counter Stifle. Vial and Stifle always were the most problematic cards for 4C Countertop to deal with... Misstep definately makes this a tier 1 deck again. It's the best in Countertop builds that run at least 8 creatures.

Tom T
05-01-2011, 05:41 AM
@ Tom T:

Please take a look at my 'Mental Misstep' list on page 98. I don't think it can get any better for a Supreme Blue build...Misstep is there to protect Lavamancer, Clique or Goyf, to counter an opposing Misstep, to counter Vial and last but not least to counter Stifle. Vial and Stifle always were the most problematic cards for 4C Countertop to deal with... Misstep definately makes this a tier 1 deck again. It's the best in Countertop builds that run at least 8 creatures.

Thanks for the feedback!

You only play 3 MM´s now. What would you cut if you had to put the 4th in?
I know the third Firespout is to up the 3-cc count, but Ben Wieburg's list and the likes played with only 4 3-drops with much succes.

This way we would be able to cut the third Firespout and put Mental Misstep in.

Arsenal
05-01-2011, 10:12 AM
Those lists that ran Firespout as a 2-of also ran 1 EE (which Trinket Mage tutors for) to act as a third sweeper, so I that's something to keep in mind. The decks that run Clique instead of Trinket Mage have to run 3 Firespout as they have no reliable way to get the 1-of EE if they wanted to go that route.

Tom T
05-08-2011, 07:49 AM
Those lists that ran Firespout as a 2-of also ran 1 EE (which Trinket Mage tutors for) to act as a third sweeper, so I that's something to keep in mind. The decks that run Clique instead of Trinket Mage have to run 3 Firespout as they have no reliable way to get the 1-of EE if they wanted to go that route.

Thanks, I didn´t know that!


@ Tom T:

Please take a look at my 'Mental Misstep' list on page 98. I don't think it can get any better for a Supreme Blue build...Misstep is there to protect Lavamancer, Clique or Goyf, to counter an opposing Misstep, to counter Vial and last but not least to counter Stifle. Vial and Stifle always were the most problematic cards for 4C Countertop to deal with... Misstep definately makes this a tier 1 deck again. It's the best in Countertop builds that run at least 8 creatures.

I've been testing your list and this seems like a very good post-MM Supreme Blue list. I've been messing around with the sideboard lately. My meta contains a lot of combo (high tide, TES, AnT), Merfolk and Goblins.

//Sideboard
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Firespout
1 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Pierce
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle

So far I came with these strategies:

Merfolk:
Set up a lot of Goyfs while slowing them down by removing and countering their creatures. Try to get Lavamancer as soon as possible.
SB: -4 Counterbalance, -1 Sensei's Divining Top, +2 Red Elemental Blast, +2 Sower of Temptation, +1 Firespout

Goblins:
Set up Goyfs, counter their cardadvantage and acceleration, Firespout with some Goyfs online. Consistent landdrops are important because of their mana-denial plan.
SB: -2 Counterbalance, -2 Vendilion Clique, +1 Firespout, +3 Blue Elemental Blast

Except for countering all the threats of Combo, what strategy should work best? Winning by Jace's ultimate or Goyf beatdown?


Thanks in advance!
~Tom

GoldenCid
05-10-2011, 07:13 PM
Is Grim lavamancer indeed needed? I understand its potential but, 2 damage and tap isn't it poor?

Jambi_462
05-11-2011, 12:53 AM
Is Grim lavamancer indeed needed? I understand its potential but, 2 damage and tap isn't it poor?

Lavamancer is amazing in certain matchups and can steal wins on it's own. Namely, Merfolk, Goblins, GW Hate, and Confidant based stuff.

It's not necessarily a "necessary" card, nowhere near as important as Firespout, but it can certainly change the tide of a game if left unchecked, and you'd be surprised how many times it controls the late game when all the fetches and instants have filled your gy.

Tom T
05-11-2011, 06:28 AM
Is Grim lavamancer indeed needed? I understand its potential but, 2 damage and tap isn't it poor?


Lavamancer is amazing in certain matchups and can steal wins on it's own. Namely, Merfolk, Goblins, GW Hate, and Confidant based stuff.

It's not necessarily a "necessary" card, nowhere near as important as Firespout, but it can certainly change the tide of a game if left unchecked, and you'd be surprised how many times it controls the late game when all the fetches and instants have filled your gy.

The main reason is to have a preboard chance against Merfolk. However, I think it's the most underused card in the deck.

Arsenal
05-11-2011, 09:02 AM
Lavamancer is pretty nice versus a lot of random rogue stuff out there too, in addition to being a boon against tribal aggro decks (this is all assuming you stuck him turn 1 off a fetchland and have additional gas for him in your hand to activate on your 2nd turn).

Shimi
05-11-2011, 11:21 AM
Lavamancer was the CounterTop Xantid Swarm for me.I played 2 MD and it wins against merfolks and goblins or get you tempo to not get daze/wasted out of the game.It deals with merfolks(even with 1 lord out), goblins, elfs but also mothers, teegs , mangaras, mutavaults, qasalis , bobs, cliques or finish the game if they used some fetchs and get 2 or 3 hits from a tarmogoyf.
But now that merfolks will have mental misstep to fight it(before they needed to FoW it) I'm not conviced that it will be as good as it was, think the time will tell us.

For reference I was 6-2(13-5) against merfolks at tournament games with 4c CB(2 grim + 3 firespout).

DragoFireheart
05-23-2011, 03:47 PM
Have other variants of CounterTop become better due to the printing of Mental Misstep?

Ex: ThopterSword, Intuition, etc.

Malakai
05-23-2011, 04:09 PM
The environment is extremely hostile to this deck now. Team America, Landstill, and Merfolk are all matchups that you have to warp your deck to beat, and by and large they've all gained more from MM being printed than we have. The Enlightened Tutor plan is a decent one, but you're still not going to beat Landstill or a protected Dark Confidant.

DragoFireheart
05-23-2011, 04:11 PM
The environment is extremely hostile to this deck now. Team America, Landstill, and Merfolk are all matchups that you have to warp your deck to beat, and by and large they've all gained more from MM being printed than we have. The Enlightened Tutor plan is a decent one, but you're still not going to beat Landstill or a protected Dark Confidant.


In what ways would I need to warp my CounterTop deck (regardless of variant) to compete? Couldn't we run Mental Missteps as well?

Edit: With all the Merfolk, Team America, and Standstills running around, we need to have our basic Spell Suite look like this:

Mental Misstep x 4 (For fighting opposing MMS, Vials, and other disruption).
Force of Will x 4 (No explanation needed)
Spell Snare x 3-4 (Counters Standstills even on the draw, forcing them to either MMS or FoW it. It also counter Warren Instigator, which is becoming popular with Goblins due to MMS, Counterspell, which is frequently used by Landstill decks, and many others).

With that spell selection, we will have answers for the first couple turns before we get CounterTop out. Once we get the pieces out, things will be smoother sailing. UGwr will be the best variants to have removal to deal with threats from Merfolk and Team America.

Tom T
05-24-2011, 08:35 AM
In what ways would I need to warp my CounterTop deck (regardless of variant) to compete? Couldn't we run Mental Missteps as well?

Edit: With all the Merfolk, Team America, and Standstills running around, we need to have our basic Spell Suite look like this:

Mental Misstep x 4 (For fighting opposing MMS, Vials, and other disruption).
Force of Will x 4 (No explanation needed)
Spell Snare x 3-4 (Counters Standstills even on the draw, forcing them to either MMS or FoW it. It also counter Warren Instigator, which is becoming popular with Goblins due to MMS, Counterspell, which is frequently used by Landstill decks, and many others).

With that spell selection, we will have answers for the first couple turns before we get CounterTop out. Once we get the pieces out, things will be smoother sailing. UGwr will be the best variants to have removal to deal with threats from Merfolk and Team America.

I, too, came up with that counter-suite. But then you'll have at least 18 one-drops (4 top, 4 mm, 4 bs, 3 swords, 3 snare).
The 4th Swords is replaced by a one-off Oblivion Ring.
I haven't tested it much though.

DragoFireheart
05-24-2011, 08:55 AM
Why did you replace the 4th sword with an O-Ring?

Tom T
05-24-2011, 10:00 AM
I'd have too many 1-drops for the CB-curve.

4 Mental Misstep
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare
3 Swords to Plowshares

4 Counterbalance
4 Tarmogoyf

3 Firespout
2 Rhox War Monk (not sure about that)
1 Oblivion Ring

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Force of Will

22 land (10 Fetch)

I want as much 3-drops as possible for the Countertop combo. Cutting on 1drops is needed, but it is quite difficult.

Arsenal
05-24-2011, 10:02 AM
That's the main problem I've come across with CounterTop decks right now; too many 1 drops. I've pretty much given up on CounterTop of any stripe (Thopters, Bant, Supreme Blue, etc) due to the fact that the curve is incredibly skewed towards 1cc.

Tom T
05-24-2011, 11:19 AM
Is there a standard or proven CB-curve? :smile:
I didn't read the whole 99 pages of this thread.

Arsenal
05-24-2011, 11:48 AM
Well, in Bant builds, you're looking at 4 MM, 4 StP, 4 Top, 4 Brainstorm, and 4 Noble Hierarch. 20 1cc cards is about 4 too many.

In Thopter builds, you're looking at 4 MM, 4 StP, 4 Top, 4 Brainstorm, and 4 E TUtor. Again 20 1cc cards.

In Supreme Blue builds, you're looking at 4 MM, 4 StP, 4 Top, 4 Brainstorm, and 2 Grim Lavamancer. 18 1cc spells is I think bleeding edge maximum.

I was initially excited about MM, thinking it'd bring back CounterTop to the forefront, but the 1cc curve is overloaded and reduces the effectiveness of CounterTop triggers.

DragoFireheart
05-24-2011, 12:22 PM
In Supreme Blue builds, you're looking at 4 MM, 4 StP, 4 Top, 4 Brainstorm, and 2 Grim Lavamancer. 18 1cc spells is I think bleeding edge maximum.



Take out the Grims and replace them with Counterspell. You could also do Spell Snare as it counts as a 1cmc trigger but can counter 2cmc spells.

Shimi
05-24-2011, 12:43 PM
Problem is that with CB on table you have few 2cc targets(being 4 goyf/3CB), Firespout is good against aggro but really bad against TA, Landstill.

I think 5-6 3cc spells is good, also I would like more than 10 2cc spells to work with CB.Maybe some configuration that runs Counterspells , CB e Goyfs also we can use Qasali to stop Shackles/Standstills/random things.
I'm just brainstorming , waiting to see where GP Providence point us ,so we can build or deck with some metagame in mind.

Arsenal
05-24-2011, 01:16 PM
Take out the Grims and replace them with Counterspell. You could also do Spell Snare as it counts as a 1cmc trigger but can counter 2cmc spells.

Even with MM in the format (which we also run), I wouldn't cut Grim Lavamancer. Merfolk and dedicated control decks seem to be on the rise, and Grim Lavamancer is a perfect foil to alot of their strategies. Merfolk has a difficult time getting around a turn 1 Lavamancer; Standstill decks can't just sit behind their Standstill with an active Lavamancer on the board, etc.

Tom T
05-24-2011, 02:00 PM
Q: Why do I play Counterbalance?
A: Because of combo. And because of a soft-lock for the mid/late-game.

Combo has a lot of 0- and 1-drops that need to be countered. Therefore it shouldn't be that kind of a big deal if I play 22 0-drops and 18 1-drops.

Soft-lock for the mid/late-game becomes harder when I only play 8 2-drops (+3 Spell Snare) and 6 3-drops (which should be enough). However with 11 counterspells and 7 removal spells it should be fine, I guess.

Arsenal
05-24-2011, 04:42 PM
CounterTop already crushed combo pre-MM, so the addition of an additional 4 1cc spells isn't that big of a boon. Also, if you're actually casting spells (Spell Snare as you suggested) in order to counter opponent spells instead of using a properly curved CounterTop combo, then you're not getting full value out of CounterTop... which is my entire point; MM forces CounterTop to play an unhealthy number of 1cc spells, often times at the expense of our 2cc slot (cut Daze/Counterspell for MM). This reduces the overall effectiveness of having an active CounterTop on the board.

DragoFireheart
05-24-2011, 04:44 PM
Q: Why do I play Counterbalance?

- Because I don't want to play a different deck?
- Because I love a constant counter-spell effect on an enchantment?
- Because I have a deck I can use Jace and Tarmogoyf in?
- Because the art looks pretty?
- Because I love to spin my top?




A: Because of combo. And because of a soft-lock for the mid/late-game.

Or that reason. :tongue:




Combo has a lot of 0- and 1-drops that need to be countered. Therefore it shouldn't be that kind of a big deal if I play 22 0-drops and 18 1-drops.

Soft-lock for the mid/late-game becomes harder when I only play 8 2-drops (+3 Spell Snare) and 6 3-drops (which should be enough). However with 11 counterspells and 7 removal spells it should be fine, I guess.

So which counter-spell would you use in conjuction with 4 FoW and 4 MMS?
Spell Snare or Counterspell?



CounterTop already crushed combo pre-MM, so the addition of an additional 4 1cc spells isn't that big of a boon. Also, if you're actually casting spells (Spell Snare as you suggested) in order to counter opponent spells instead of using a properly curved CounterTop combo, then you're not getting full value out of CounterTop... which is my entire point; MM forces CounterTop to play an unhealthy number of 1cc spells, often times at the expense of our 2cc slot (cut Daze/Counterspell for MM). This reduces the overall effectiveness of having an active CounterTop on the board.

MMS is a boon for CT though as it helps solve a huge issue with the deck: Aether Vials. It helps our Merfolk matchup, our goblins matchup and helps us survive the Zoo matchup even more. Also, I'm not a fan of having Grim and Firespout in the same deck. Futhermore, MMS helps protect our creature more so just just relying on CounterTop alone.

Yes, tempo decks gained a lot from MMS, but that is a poor reason for us to not use it.

Arsenal
05-24-2011, 05:07 PM
I too thought that CounterTop would rise in power due to MM > Aether Vial, until I realized that Goblins already saw little play pre-MM, Zoo was seeing less and less play pre-MM, and Merfolk runs MM so we sorta broke even there.

I think MM is great in CounterTop. The issue is that what do you cut so that you're not running 18-20-22 1cc spells? Bant absolutely can't cut any of it's 1cc spells pre-MM, nor can Thopters pre-MM; add MM into the mix and you're looking at 20 1cc spells at the minimum. This is unhealthy. Against tribal aggro, particularly Merfolk that doesn't run any spot removal, I'd say that Grim Lavamancer is one of the most important cards in those matchups as he invalidates their entire Lord, Lord, Lord, Vault activation strategy.

EDIT: If I have CounterTop online, how does MM help us protect our Clique/Goyf better than an active CounterTop? If the opponent Swords the Clique, you flip Top in response, countering the Swords. I'd argue that an active CounterTop, properly curved, is a better method of protecting your creatures from removal as you should reliably have 1-3cc all the time.

DragoFireheart
05-24-2011, 05:49 PM
I too thought that CounterTop would rise in power due to MM > Aether Vial, until I realized that Goblins already saw little play pre-MM, Zoo was seeing less and less play pre-MM, and Merfolk runs MM so we sorta broke even there.

I think MM is great in CounterTop. The issue is that what do you cut so that you're not running 18-20-22 1cc spells? Bant absolutely can't cut any of it's 1cc spells pre-MM, nor can Thopters pre-MM; add MM into the mix and you're looking at 20 1cc spells at the minimum. This is unhealthy. Against tribal aggro, particularly Merfolk that doesn't run any spot removal, I'd say that Grim Lavamancer is one of the most important cards in those matchups as he invalidates their entire Lord, Lord, Lord, Vault activation strategy.

EDIT: If I have CounterTop online, how does MM help us protect our Clique/Goyf better than an active CounterTop? If the opponent Swords the Clique, you flip Top in response, countering the Swords. I'd argue that an active CounterTop, properly curved, is a better method of protecting your creatures from removal as you should reliably have 1-3cc all the time.


Protecting your creatures isn;t enough if you are being swarmed by Merfolk. Firespouts and spotting their Ather Vials will go a long ways in fighting them.

Tom T
05-24-2011, 06:13 PM
- Because I don't want to play a different deck?
- Because I love a constant counter-spell effect on an enchantment?
- Because I have a deck I can use Jace and Tarmogoyf in?
- Because the art looks pretty?
- Because I love to spin my top?



I see what you mean :laugh:

[QUOTE=DragoFireheart;552497So which counter-spell would you use in conjuction with 4 FoW and 4 MMS?
Spell Snare or Counterspell?
[/QUOTE]

For manacurve-reasons I guess we should cut the Spell Snare for Daze/Counterspell.
In Europe they still use Dazes, which I think is a bit clunky. Though, those lists do Top8 in a diverse meta with a lot of Merfolk ( http://mtgdecks.net/events/view/5759 Or check Magickeller.de ).
Those lists don't run Mental Misstep (maybe he didn't have them in time) and only run 20 lands.
I've played Counterspell for a while, but early game it was always a bit clunky. Now with the Misstep we can play C-spell as a 2-off for the late-game?


Supreme U

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to plowshares
/16

4 Counterbalance
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Counterspell
/10

2(+) Firespout
4 3-drops of choice
/6

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Force of Will

4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Forest

3-drops of choice:
Vendilion Clique/[cards]
[cards]Vedalken Shackles
Oblivion Ring
Knight of the Reliquary
Rhox War Monk
Trygon Predator
Beast Within
Threads of Disloyalty

DragoFireheart
05-24-2011, 07:48 PM
For manacurve-reasons I guess we should cut the Spell Snare for Daze/Counterspell.
In Europe they still use Dazes, which I think is a bit clunky. Though, those lists do Top8 in a diverse meta with a lot of Merfolk ( http://mtgdecks.net/events/view/5759 Or check Magickeller.de ).
Those lists don't run Mental Misstep (maybe he didn't have them in time) and only run 20 lands.
I've played Counterspell for a while, but early game it was always a bit clunky. Now with the Misstep we can play C-spell as a 2-off for the late-game?

- Daze isn't really needed anymore. Missing land drops is bad for CounterTop as it is mana hungry. Counterspell seems like the obvious choice and is good late game anyways.





Supreme U

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to plowshares
/16

4 Counterbalance
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Counterspell
/10

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Force of Will


-This is going to be our new shell. We NEED mms to fight opposing mms and vials.




2(+) Firespout
4 3-drops of choice
/6

3-drops of choice:
Vendilion Clique/[cards]
[cards]Vedalken Shackles
Oblivion Ring
Knight of the Reliquary
Rhox War Monk
Trygon Predator
Beast Within
Threads of Disloyalty


2 Vendilion Cliques should be an auto-include: they will help immensly with all the Landstill decks running around. For the last slots, play around with the 3cmc cards as you will.

Trygon Predator may be another good choice as it can eat Standstills and Vials, can be pitched to Force and can fly over ground forces. It's also somewhat easy on the mana cost as it only needs green and blue.

You could also cut back on the 3cmc spells and run Grim Lavamancer like some have suggested.

I don't think RWM really adds anything to this deck. He'll also be hard to cast with all the Wasteland decks running around without NH to provide the mana to cast him.

Shackles is a bit mana intensive when you are trying to cast threats and support CounterTop.

Arsenal
05-24-2011, 08:05 PM
Protecting your creatures isn;t enough if you are being swarmed by Merfolk. Firespouts and spotting their Ather Vials will go a long ways in fighting them.

My comment was in response to your claim that MM helps us protecting our creatures better than CounterTop does, to which I strongly disagree.

nayon
05-24-2011, 08:18 PM
Do you think it would be possible to "live the dream" and make a Countertop Standstill deck? I know it's been tried before but maybe MM helps that cause?

Tom T
05-25-2011, 01:33 AM
Do you think it would be possible to "live the dream" and make a Countertop Standstill deck? I know it's been tried before but maybe MM helps that cause?

This will only be possible when you will play 2 or maybe 3 colors. Not in a 4color Supreme build because of the auto-include Mishras Factory and/or Wasteland.
You could cut red or green and see what happens :P

dsck
05-25-2011, 05:13 AM
Do you think it would be possible to "live the dream" and make a Countertop Standstill deck? I know it's been tried before but maybe MM helps that cause?

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/busqueda.php?nombre=Reu%DF%20David

DragoFireheart
05-25-2011, 10:56 AM
This will only be possible when you will play 2 or maybe 3 colors. Not in a 4color Supreme build because of the auto-include Mishras Factory and/or Wasteland.
You could cut red or green and see what happens :P

Cut green and drop the Tarmogoyfs I suppose.

DragoFireheart
05-30-2011, 02:38 PM
I think Countertop decks need to start going a creatureless route and start abusing Vedalken Shackles and Ensnaring Bridge in some way. Shackles is great for stealing an opposing creature to protect ourselves (and can even grab manlands), while Bridge is nuts vs Merfolk. The lack of Storm decks makes it easy to pack more creature related hate. Also, Merfolks Cursecatchers and Mental Missteps have no effect on stopping said artifacts.

Bridge and Shackles have really good synergy was well: large creatures are stopped by bridge, while smaller ones can be grabbed with shackles. I think Countertop decks which want to go a control route should opt to drop Tarmogoyfs: I feel like they don't really fit in this style of deck anymore.

Arsenal
05-30-2011, 02:44 PM
So.... Thopters? Creature-less CounterTop build that runs Ensnaring Bridge + Vedalken Shackles, plus a smattering of bombs in Humility, etc.

DragoFireheart
05-30-2011, 03:05 PM
So.... Thopters? Creature-less CounterTop build that runs Ensnaring Bridge + Vedalken Shackles, plus a smattering of bombs in Humility, etc.

Couple things I don't like about Thopters:

1- the combo is a bit fragile.

2- Enlightened tutor results in card disadvantage.

3- Sotm and Thopter Foundry are dead draws without each other. Honestly, I'd rather run the countertop thopter shell without the thopter-sword combo, but that is me.

Otherwise I do find the deck to be decent.

Arsenal
05-30-2011, 03:08 PM
E Tutor, although being a MM target (what isn't nowadays though), fights off Hymn quite well. It also runs a high number of basic lands, furthering combatting the popular BUG Team America decks out there.

And the nice thing about Thopters is that it can go for the combo early if needed, or it can just grind you out and play the traditional draw-go game using Jace/Elspeth as a win condition if the Thopters plan is disrupted.

DragoFireheart
05-31-2011, 10:34 PM
E Tutor, although being a MM target (what isn't nowadays though), fights off Hymn quite well. It also runs a high number of basic lands, furthering combatting the popular BUG Team America decks out there.

And the nice thing about Thopters is that it can go for the combo early if needed, or it can just grind you out and play the traditional draw-go game using Jace/Elspeth as a win condition if the Thopters plan is disrupted.

Enlightened Tutor also makes it very easy to manipulate the top card of the library with Counterbalance. I think I will reconsider Thopter Countertop: the lists tend to run Ensnaring Bridge, which is nuts against Merfolk.