[Archetype] CounterTop

[tsoatt]

I feel that playing white and red make the mana base unstable and that with the creation of mental misstep and dismember we can now lower the 1cmc count and raise the 3 cmc count.

3 Top

4 Dark confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique

4 Counterbalance

4 brainstorm
4 Force of will
4 Daze
4 Dismember
3 mental misstep

1 Bayou
1 Forest
3 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted delta
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

SB
2 tormod's crypt
2 umezawa's Jitte
2 Chill
1 Diabolic edict
2 Krosan Grip
1 Mental Misstep
1 Jace, The mind Sculptor
2 Perish
2 Thoughtseize

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Why is that list better than playing Team America or BUG Landstill?

[tsoatt]

Team america has an unstable mana base because it has to make both double black and double blue fairly often. It has a better zoo MU than Team america does because of the Counter top combo and it's creature base allows for a better clock than bug landstill.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

So with 4 Dark Confidant, 4 Dismember, 4 Force of Will, 3 Mental Misstep and X fetches -- you expect to have a better Zoo matchup than Team America or Landstill?

If anything, you should probably spread out your removal so it doesn't hurt you as much.

Team America's mana base could be considered greedy, but I'd say it's far from unstable.

[jin]

-This is going to be our new shell. We NEED mms to fight opposing mms and vials.



Are you sure 4x Mental Missteps is really necessary? A lot of control decks are playing 3 Mental Missteps because they aren't really that great in the late game. I feel that if we are working on a core, the requirement should probably be 3 Mental Missteps leaving the 4th to be meta dependant. I think the greatest importance Mental Misstep really provides is to protect our Sensei's Divining Tops from being countered.

I would also like to suggest this in order to raise the 2 drops, we can also include a Sylvan Library as a 1-of to act as a "5th Sensei's Divining Top" as well as a stronger game against enemy control decks pre-CounterTop lock.

[Vandalize]

Why not a CounterTop Bant, with some Aggro focus?

Something like this:

// Lands
2 [R] Savannah
1 [UG] Plains
3 [R] Tropical Island
1 [UG] Forest
1 [UNH] Island
2 [R] Tundra
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch

// Spells
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
3 [NPH] Mental Misstep
4 [COM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor

The major issue of CounterTop is dealing with early threats, while putting the lock togheter. RWM, Goyf and Clique are pretty good beaters, and better when Exalted by Hierarch and Pridemage.

It shows RWM and Pridemages in numbers because CounterTop can't afford GSZ + 1-ofs.

The average numbers:

0cc spells - 20
1cc spells - 18
2cc spells - 11
3cc spells - 5
4cc spells - 2
5cc spells - 4
Blue Count - 21

Is this still viable, or a little outdated?

[jin]

Why not a CounterTop Bant, with some Aggro focus?

Something like this:

// Lands
2 [R] Savannah
1 [UG] Plains
3 [R] Tropical Island
1 [UG] Forest
1 [UNH] Island
2 [R] Tundra
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch

// Spells
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
3 [NPH] Mental Misstep
4 [COM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor

The major issue of CounterTop is dealing with early threats, while putting the lock togheter. RWM, Goyf and Clique are pretty good beaters, and better when Exalted by Hierarch and Pridemage.

It shows RWM and Pridemages in numbers because CounterTop can't afford GSZ + 1-ofs.

The average numbers:

0cc spells - 20
1cc spells - 18
2cc spells - 11
3cc spells - 5
4cc spells - 2
5cc spells - 4
Blue Count - 21

Is this still viable, or a little outdated?

Bant aggro is better because they can be way more aggressive while playing with GSZ which sometimes invalidates your CB. Pridemage and Goyf clash in mana cost and Rhox War Monk is outclassed as an aggressive beater now-a-days.

In anycase, Knight of the Reliquary just dominates your board position. Running Knight just seems pointless, however, since other decks that run Knight of The Reliquary like Aggro Loam and The Rock simply will have bigger Knights. You can't rely on pure bant since Bant Aggro decks, The Rock decks just outclass Bant CounterTop in the aggro department.

Your deck is really well thought out, but the card choices are somewhat dated. Also, cards like Thrun ruin your game if your goyf cannot stay on the table or is big enough to stop the legend.

[keys]

I made some tweaks to the UBG version above.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Counterbalance
4 Top

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of will
4 Mental Misstep
2 Daze
2 Dismember
1 Go For the Throat
1 Putrefy

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp

SB
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
2 Spell Pierce
2 Smother
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Perish

New mana curve:
1 12
2 15
3 6
4 2
5 4


There's no reason to play less than 4 Top right now, since it's going to be MM bait every game. Same with playing MM. You need early protection before CBTop is online.

4 Dismember is a little too aggressive for a deck that needs time to stabilize. Go For the Throat, Putrefy and Liliana 2.0 are more options. Liliana seems especially strong with a Confidant and/or Jace.

The deck probably beats up on Zoo and other aggro better than UBG Landstill, but the problem is CBTop just isn't great versus some of the current DTB. Green Sun's Zenith and Natural Order both ignore it, and Pact copies trigger right through it.

That said, if either Storm Combo or Solidarity becomes popular because of Past in Flames, CBTop could be a good deck to pick up again.

[jin]

are we back in business? Mental Misstep got banned..

[DragoFireheart]

are we back in business? Mental Misstep got banned..

Yes we are. We also have new toys to play with: Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull.

Lets get the ball rolling shall we? I predict that Storm decks are going to make a reappearance. Goblins also will be coming back. We need something that can fight both. I got a shell here for a BladeTop deck:


4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
2 Batterskull
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Flooded Strand
7 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
4 Tundra
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


This is just a shell to get it going. We could do a few things with this deck like splash red for:


Grim Lavamancer
Pyroblast
Red Elemental Blast


Also, what sort of sideboard should we have now?

[Theonlyone]

Are you sure we can't build a new list of supreme blue?

[DragoFireheart]

Are you sure we can't build a new list of supreme blue?

- We could go that route as well. Do you have any deck lists or ideas on how to go that way?

[Theonlyone]

Well, I feel like stoneforge isn't as good as before. It will get online on turn 4, the time to assemble Top + counterbalance, and I feel, it will be really too late.
In march, I played that list of supreme blue without having testing it in a tournament :
1 [UNH] Mountain
2 [UNH] Island
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [R] Tropical Island
3 [R] Tundra
3 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [M12] Grim Lavamancer
2 [SOM] Trinket Mage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [M10] Pithing Needle
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [7E] Counterspell
2 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [CMD] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
2 [CMD] Firespout
SB: 1 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [TSP] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [CMD] Firespout
SB: 2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [M10] Pithing Needle

The strength of that list is that we can fight beat batterskull with needle and the match-up against merfolk is even. Tarmogoyf will be a wall.

[DragoFireheart]

I have never liked Trinket Mage in CounterTop. He's not a threat and as a tutor he's not that powerful. I'd rather have the fairy since it can grab stuff out of our opponents hand (or get rid of a land in our hand to maybe draw something) and is a clock that flies over stupid crap.

I suggest this list as the number of Goblins and Merfolk players is going to go up:


2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
2 Firespout
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Firespout
4 Pyroblast
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Spell Pierce


It's a pretty typical list but the sideboard is heavy on the anti-blue, anti-aggro stuff. It's mostly there to help with out bad matchups, which are mostly Merfolk and Show n tell Decks.

[TkDodo]

(or get rid of a land in our hand to maybe draw something)


Just to let you know - Clique reads "nonland card" ;)

[Theonlyone]

Well, I don't think that the U/W stoneblade version is that bad with countertop. It can race merfolk with batterskull. We musn't forget too that the tarmogoyf isn't anymore more than 3/4 most of the time.
I'd try the core with a red splash for firespout instead of shackles next weekend.

[DragoFireheart]

Just to let you know - Clique reads "nonland card" ;)

- FML, that's what I get for not carefully reading the card. Well, you know what I mean: get rid of a non-land card that's currently dead, like excess tops or CBs.

[DragoFireheart]

Well, I don't think that the U/W stoneblade version is that bad with countertop. It can race merfolk with batterskull. We musn't forget too that the tarmogoyf isn't anymore more than 3/4 most of the time.
I'd try the core with a red splash for firespout instead of shackles next weekend.

Grim Lavamancer would be a better choice instead of shackles IMO. HE can fry all sorts of goblins and merfolk, dyrad arbors, Noble Hiearchs, Dark Confidants, Vendilion Cliques, Pridemages, and many other little creatures.

[jin]

- FML, that's what I get for not carefully reading the card. Well, you know what I mean: get rid of a non-land card that's currently dead, like excess tops or CBs.

Excess CB's are never useless.


Grim Lavamancer would be a better choice instead of shackles IMO. HE can fry all sorts of goblins and merfolk, dyrad arbors, Noble Hiearchs, Dark Confidants, Vendilion Cliques, Pridemages, and many other little creatures.

Agreed, not because it fries more dudes, but because Merfolk can fight Shackles (Merrow Reejery). He's already givenup on Shackles though... Lavamancer is probalby better than Firespout too though in a Batterskull build since Batterskull kills Cats (so Firespout is redundant), but Firespouts die to fish (because firespout gets hit by more of Merfolk's countermagic unlike Lavamancer).

[DragoFireheart]

Check out my CounterBlade (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22210-Deck-CounterBlade&p=589359#post589359) thread!

I know, I come off as an attention whore, but I'd like to keep discussion that wants to fuse the SFM + BS and CBT deck in one thread. This allows non-SFM decks to focus discussion here.

[jin]

Been playing some 4c CBT with some success. How's everyone's testing going? I've only been having trouble with Thrun, which I solved with really big goyfs..

[ivanpei]

I don't think Firespout is really necessary right now. IMO cards like Grim Lavamancer/Snapcaster are more flexible. I agree with DragoFireheart that Trinket Mage has been powercreeped, the card is uber slow, I'd rather have more Snapcasters. I'm currently running this RUG Countertop list:

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
4 Top

4 Goyf
2 Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Jace TMS

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Fire/Ice
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce

9 Fetches (Feeds Grim/ Great with Top)
4 Volc
3 Trop
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Riptide Lab (some late game reach is useful)

I built this list to Face rape combo which seems like the archtype to beat right now. I think Counterspell is pretty slow now and really hard to cast before Combo goes off. To up the 2cc count, I decided to play 2 copies of Snapcaster and the ever useful Fire/Ice. Fire/Ice has upped in usefulness by being able to 2-1 often now by nabbing Snapcasters + Clique/Grim/Noble Heirarch etc. Also, Spell Snare is at its best right now by being able to totally stop Snapcaster along with Animate Dead/Exhume and Infernal Tutor. That card is my pick for best conditional counter in a Countertop Deck.

There be will some amount of REBs, Firespouts, Nature's Claim (Grudge is bad now that UW Stoneblade is less popular, you'll always see some random, like Enchantress/Aluren) and Surgical Extractions. Surgical Extraction is really useful vs Reanimator while being a good anti Snapcaster card. Though I do admit that Extracting a Snapcaster target still gives him a Coral Merfolk, sometimes, there just aren't better cards to board in. Surgical Extraction also works well with your own Snapcasters, so it's a nice bonus.

[DragoFireheart]

I'm not sure how I feel about the lack of white for STP. We lose to a resolved KotR or some other big beater.

[ivanpei]

-2 Bolts, + 2 Dismember should help against KOTR. Even then some amount of Sowers will be needed post board. Jace helps somewhat against Kotr. Between him and Dismember, KOTR should be handleable though he is a pain to remove.

[DragoFireheart]

I dunno, I never liked playing CBT without STP. I always felt naked without them to be able to remove big dudes.

[Dalapin]

I just thought I would post the list I used in Nashville for feedback and link to the report I made. All feedback is thoroughly welcomed and I will answer any questions as well.

4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Humility

4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry

4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Counterbalance

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor

5 Islands
2 Plains
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Ancient Den
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard:
3 Spell Pierce
2 Path to Exile
1 Stony Silence
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Counterbalance
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of the Sun and Moon
1 Aura of Silence

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22337-First-Legacy-Event-SCG-Nashville-Report-U-W-Enlightened-Tutor-Control

[jin]

-2 Bolts, + 2 Dismember should help against KOTR. Even then some amount of Sowers will be needed post board. Jace helps somewhat against Kotr. Between him and Dismember, KOTR should be handleable though he is a pain to remove.

I wouldnt shave the bolts... They work very well with snapcaster, I would shave spell snare since you already have cbt. I worked on a rug list as well and bolt is great. You don't have to remove kotr.. You can just race with with multiple bolts.. Dismember is a lot worse since you take 4 in this deck... The racing plan is out the door.


I just thought I would post the list I used in Nashville for feedback and link to the report I made. All feedback is thoroughly welcomed and I will answer any questions as well.

4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Humility

4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry

4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Counterbalance

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor

5 Islands
2 Plains
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Ancient Den
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard:
3 Spell Pierce
2 Path to Exile
1 Stony Silence
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Counterbalance
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of the Sun and Moon
1 Aura of Silence

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22337-First-Legacy-Event-SCG-Nashville-Report-U-W-Enlightened-Tutor-Control

Sfm and cbt are difficult combos to play together because they are both very mana intensive strategies and you often need to establish them both early on.. Which means they both take up the same deck slots...

Can't drop Sfm without protection and cbt early might get you killed from fast threats..

[jin]

sorry double..

[DragoFireheart]

Can't drop Sfm without protection and cbt early might get you killed from fast threats..

- Firespout solves the later problem. As for the former, you likely wouldn't play a Tarmogoyf without protection either considering how threat lite this deck is.

[Anusien]

- Firespout solves the later problem. As for the former, you likely wouldn't play a Tarmogoyf without protection either considering how threat lite this deck is.
I would gladly drop a Tarmogoyf without protection if I thought it would slow my opponent down at all. But in many matchups and situations I own't use the Force even if I have it. Obviously if they're Zoo and I have to resolve this Goyf/SFM to win, I'm going to use the Force. But if we're two sloiwsh decks a lot of times I'll run the Tarmogoyf out there just to draw a card from my opponent's hand. In CB mirrors all the time I'd use Goyf as a test spell on turn 2 and then be able to cast Counterbalance turn 3 with Spell Snare backup. Or they'd cast Tarmogoyf on turn 2, I'd answer with CB on turn 2 and then easily resolve my Goyf on turn 4.

Consequently, I don't think Stoneforge Mystic and Counterbalance fight. In fact I think they work pretty well together.

[DragoFireheart]

I would gladly drop a Tarmogoyf without protection if I thought it would slow my opponent down at all.

- How exactly is Goyf going to slow down someone?

=Merfolk Island walk around him.
= Zoo plays enough removal that it doesn't matter.
= Maverick plays bigger creatures.
= Reanimator players bigger creatures.
= Rock decks play enough removal to remove him.
= NO/Pro decks don't care about Goyf and will drop a 10/10 Hydra.

Other than the Zoo matchup where a Goyf can survive burn spells, I don't see Goyf having any advantage over SFM.



But in many matchups and situations I own't use the Force even if I have it. Obviously if they're Zoo and I have to resolve this Goyf/SFM to win, I'm going to use the Force. But if we're two sloiwsh decks a lot of times I'll run the Tarmogoyf out there just to draw a card from my opponent's hand. In CB mirrors all the time I'd use Goyf as a test spell on turn 2 and then be able to cast Counterbalance turn 3 with Spell Snare backup. Or they'd cast Tarmogoyf on turn 2, I'd answer with CB on turn 2 and then easily resolve my Goyf on turn 4.

- You can do the same thing with SFM while gaining card advantage. BS can still be hardcasted, though he's pretty slow regardless.



Consequently, I don't think Stoneforge Mystic and Counterbalance fight. In fact I think they work pretty well together.

- I know many people think otherwise but they do work very well together. The life link and vigilance of BS is HIGHLY relevant against more aggressive decks and I feel this deck gets more out of SFM than Tarmogoyf in this regard. Firespout is the key winner for CBT though as it stops Zoo swarms, helps slow down Merfolk, can kill Dredge and Storm tokens, and is good for killing flying creatures that aren't big like Tombstalker or Emrakul. I play no less than 3 FS in the main and I will always keep one on the side. This deck NEEDS sweepers for the aggro oriented, faster meta.

Zoo decks are going to be this decks hardest matchup so we should prepare accordingly.

[jin]

- Firespout solves the later problem. As for the former, you likely wouldn't play a Tarmogoyf without protection either considering how threat lite this deck is.

Firespout is awesome, just not with SFM.

You are right, I wouldn't drop my goyf unprotected. However, my goyf is not susceptible to as much removal (burns). Also, goyf doesn't take 2 turns to become scary. On turn 2, goyf can be scarier than a 1/2 AEther Vial.

Tarmogoyf is just more durable and works well with Firespout. In an SFM build, I think Snapcaster is simply stronger. If I were to play CBT in a list that runs SFM, I'd run only 1 or 2 CB simply because Snapcaster with Spellsnare will help with a lot of stuff. The only thing the CB will do is act as a Protection from Swords to Plowshare/Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning. I would also consider playing some number of Enlightened Tutor to help me get CB more often. The decks like this have to maximize Snapcaster because you are going to be on the D in the early game and Snapcaster helps with that with relatively low mana requirement.

CBT is very mana intensive, and if you want Batterskull to be anywhere near as durable as goyf, you need to keep SFM on the table and also 3 mana open to bring him back to your hand. You cannot do this with CBT as your main plan. Unless you make double mana each turn, it's just not happening.

Firespout has synergies with goyf because goyf is often a 3/4 or bigger in a CBT deck, but its lack of synergy with SFM simply makes it unplayable. Snapcaster recuring bolts is just way stronger..



Consequently, I don't think Stoneforge Mystic and Counterbalance fight. In fact I think they work pretty well together.

CBT is very mana intensive, and if you want Batterskull to be anywhere near as durable as goyf, you need to keep SFM on the table and also 3 mana open to bring him back to your hand. You cannot do this with CBT as your main plan. Unless you make double mana each turn, it's just not happening.

I never use my goyf as bait. I feel this deck can't afford the card parity...


- How exactly is Goyf going to slow down someone?

=Merfolk Island walk around him.
= Zoo plays enough removal that it doesn't matter.
= Maverick plays bigger creatures.
= Reanimator players bigger creatures.
= Rock decks play enough removal to remove him.
= NO/Pro decks don't care about Goyf and will drop a 10/10 Hydra.

1. LOA isn't going to stick against us, or we might as well scoop. Furthermore, given that the opponent has LOA + another creature, goyf stops LOA from swinging and therefore slows down the opponent

2. Mav only has KOTR that might be bigger. I don't think they play Terravore anymore. They do have SFM which is smaller than goyf, but is equal in size to your SFM

3. Reanimator does have bigger creatures, but hopefully you won't be casting goyf when they already went off. If they haven't and your goyf is in play, you are putting a clock on them which hurts their reanimate.

4. Rock is a tough match up.. shit happens.

5. Goyf can put pressure on them maybe forcing them to block before they can cast NO.




Firespout is the key winner for CBT though as it stops Zoo swarms, helps slow down Merfolk, can kill Dredge and Storm tokens, and is good for killing flying creatures that aren't big like Tombstalker or Emrakul. I play no less than 3 FS in the main and I will always keep one on the side. This deck NEEDS sweepers for the aggro oriented, faster meta.

Zoo decks are going to be this decks hardest matchup so we should prepare accordingly.

Agreed, Firespout is a must.

NOTE: Firespout can't stop merfolk, they'll daze the shit out of it.. that's why we need lavamancer

[ShiftyKapree]

Artifacts
4 Sensei's Divining Top
Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf
Enchantments
4 Counterbalance
Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
Legendary Creatures
1 Progenitus
Sorceries
3 Natural Order
2 Ponder
Basic Lands
1 Forest
2 Island
Lands
1 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Windswept Heath
Land Creatures
1 Dryad Arbor

This is a past list that use to be the staple of the deck, I feel with some improvement to the list that this would be the one to play again. Obv the RWM would be KOTR, I feel like GSZ is not needed for the deck. The whole idea behind this list is to land CBT then land NO and win. Cliques need a place in this list aswell.

[Deon de Molay]

GSZ worked very well for me, though I wasn't running Order in that particular build.
Actually I'm not entirely sure if Order is needed in modern Balance.
Jaces are a must, of course. They also work as more or less ultimative threat. Though again it takes much more time to win with Jace than with Order.

[DragoFireheart]

Firespout is awesome, just not with SFM.

- FS works just fine with SFM. If SFM is out and not dead, drop the BS and you can hold off hordes fairly well. If they kill the SFM, you board wipe. If you need to board wipe and SFM and BS are out, just board wipe since the FS won't kill the BS. No real card advantage loss anyways on you end while the opponent may have over-extended to overwhelm your BS, which means you probably just won.



You are right, I wouldn't drop my goyf unprotected. However, my goyf is not susceptible to as much removal (burns). Also, goyf doesn't take 2 turns to become scary. On turn 2, goyf can be scarier than a 1/2 AEther Vial.

- Goyf is hardly scary anymore with people packing 4 GSZ and 4 KotR. Or SnT Emrakul. Or Reanimator. Or SFM -> BS. Goyf is not the wall he used to and trying to pretend he is will only lead to more game losses.




Tarmogoyf is just more durable and works well with Firespout. In an SFM build, I think Snapcaster is simply stronger. If I were to play CBT in a list that runs SFM, I'd run only 1 or 2 CB simply because Snapcaster with Spellsnare will help with a lot of stuff. The only thing the CB will do is act as a Protection from Swords to Plowshare/Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning. I would also consider playing some number of Enlightened Tutor to help me get CB more often. The decks like this have to maximize Snapcaster because you are going to be on the D in the early game and Snapcaster helps with that with relatively low mana requirement.

- I agree with the Snappys, but Gofy is hardly anything but durable. Kotor and even scavenging ooze can be bigger, merfolk don't care, and many other decks have bigger dudes. Only in the case of Zoo is Goyf really relevant and even that can be questionable.




CBT is very mana intensive, and if you want Batterskull to be anywhere near as durable as goyf, you need to keep SFM on the table and also 3 mana open to bring him back to your hand. You cannot do this with CBT as your main plan. Unless you make double mana each turn, it's just not happening.

- This is simply not the case. CBT can protect BS just as well as it protects Goyf. In addition, if you KNOW a spell that CB can't counter is cast (which you will with top), BS has the option of bouncing. Goyf can't.




Firespout has synergies with goyf because goyf is often a 3/4 or bigger in a CBT deck, but its lack of synergy with SFM simply makes it unplayable. Snapcaster recuring bolts is just way stronger..

- See above



CBT is very mana intensive, and if you want Batterskull to be anywhere near as durable as goyf, you need to keep SFM on the table and also 3 mana open to bring him back to your hand. You cannot do this with CBT as your main plan. Unless you make double mana each turn, it's just not happening.

- You're pretty much wrong. I never have mana issues playing SFM with BS and CBT. See above.



I never use my goyf as bait. I feel this deck can't afford the card parity...

- It can't and that's why Goyf isn't enough anymore.



1. LOA isn't going to stick against us, or we might as well scoop. Furthermore, given that the opponent has LOA + another creature, goyf stops LOA from swinging and therefore slows down the opponent.

- We don't scoop if we have BS. It lets us live much longer and they typically don't run that much removal if any beyond Dismember.



2. Mav only has KOTR that might be bigger. I don't think they play Terravore anymore. They do have SFM which is smaller than goyf, but is equal in size to your SFM

- They have Green Sun's Zenith. They don't give a crap about Gofy and in fact they tend to run Ooze, which makes Goyf get smaller.



3. Reanimator does have bigger creatures, but hopefully you won't be casting goyf when they already went off. If they haven't and your goyf is in play, you are putting a clock on them which hurts their reanimate.

- Honestly it doesn't matter which one you use in this case but at least with BS you can gain life in case they do somehow resolve a dude.



4. Rock is a tough match up.. shit happens.

- The life link and vigilance helps a great deal for longer battles of attrition.


5. Goyf can put pressure on them maybe forcing them to block before they can cast NO.

- I don't like maybes, I like certainties and when they drop the hydra, your gofy is useless. At least with BS you can gain life and possibly slow down the hydra by an extra turn.




Agreed, Firespout is a must.

NOTE: Firespout can't stop merfolk, they'll daze the shit out of it.. that's why we need lavamancer

- No, that's why we run SFM since BS works very well against Merfolk.

[jin]

list...

Your list seems very tight, I don't see where Clique would fit in, maybe only in the Rhox War Monk slot. I agree, I think KOTR just out classes Rhox War Monk.


- FS works just fine with SFM. If SFM is out and not dead, drop the BS and you can hold off hordes fairly well. If they kill the SFM, you board wipe. If you need to board wipe and SFM and BS are out, just board wipe since the FS won't kill the BS. No real card advantage loss anyways on you end while the opponent may have over-extended to overwhelm your BS, which means you probably just won.

That seems quite conditional and consider goyf just doesn't die to Firespout, that makes him better. I think given that Batterskull on the table, I wouldn't cast Firespout simple because killing off my own SFM just makes my Batterskull vulnerable to removal or slow once gang blocked..



- Goyf is hardly scary anymore with people packing 4 GSZ and 4 KotR. Or SnT Emrakul. Or Reanimator. Or SFM -> BS. Goyf is not the wall he used to and trying to pretend he is will only lead to more game losses.

Scary is perspective, so I won't argue that. Yes GSZ is a bad match up regardless. Your SFM + Batterskull won't stop Maverick either. No one is pretending, he's still the best wall we have.



- I agree with the Snappys, but Gofy is hardly anything but durable. Kotor and even scavenging ooze can be bigger, merfolk don't care, and many other decks have bigger dudes. Only in the case of Zoo is Goyf really relevant and even that can be questionable.


I think goyf is more than just durable. For starters he gets to be 6/7 in most match ups. This is interesting you bring up Zoo, since I feel that if CB decks make goyf huge (they do), then goyf vs goyf is just more relevant than Batterskull vs goyf (in which case Batterskull loses)..




- This is simply not the case. CBT can protect BS just as well as it protects Goyf. In addition, if you KNOW a spell that CB can't counter is cast (which you will with top), BS has the option of bouncing. Goyf can't.


Think about this, if you are playing Tarmogoyf, you have to counter these things to protect yourself: 1-drop for Swords to Plowshare, 3-drops for Kgrip/Dismember (to an extent), 4-drops for Jace2

If you are playing SFM + Batterskull, you have to counter these tihngs to protect yourself: 1-drop for Swords to Plowshare, 2-drops for Tarmogoyf, 3-drops for Kgrip/Dismember, 4-drops for Jace2

That alone makes it harder to protect your SFM combo. You need to keep 4 relevant cards on top of your library. I can only keep 3 which is exactly what Sensei's Divining Top looks at.



- See above


Seen it, but not buying it. Yes you can use it in the same deck. No it's not optimal. That's why Tempo Thresh doesn't play Firespout with Nimble Mongoose. Kiling your own shit is just bad.



- You're pretty much wrong. I never have mana issues playing SFM with BS and CBT. See above.


"Pretty much wrong" is not an argument, or else "you are pretty much wrong". You provide no evidence of your reasoning. I do not accept this. You obviously haven't fought against CB hate to make any valid argument here.

Between protecting yourself, protecting your CB and protecting your goyf/SFM + Batterskull, you simply do not have enough resources in the early game to do both. If it was so easy, I'd have tons of mana open all of the time, which is not the case.

Not to mention, given that CB comes back, Kgrip is just going to destroy your Batterskull... but this really is collateral and doesn't need to be argued.



- It can't and that's why Goyf isn't enough anymore.


Given that the spells are countered, yes, I'd be more willing to sacrifice SFM than goyf.



- We don't scoop if we have BS. It lets us live much longer and they typically don't run that much removal if any beyond Dismember.


I admit, Perish and Submerge will be relevant against me here..



- They have Green Sun's Zenith. They don't give a crap about Gofy and in fact they tend to run Ooze, which makes Goyf get smaller.


Ooze dies to Firespout and Plow and needs mana open, and sucks against Jace2. Ooze is hardly relevant here. I only play 6 creatures. Unless he starts removing his own stuff, in which case he'll deserve my plow. Anything bigger is simply met with Jace2 or Swords or CB.

Again, GSZ is strong against us. Those things are bigger than Batterskull too by the way. Although, the chance of my goyf beating enemy goyfs and Oozes are much higher than your Batterskull beating them



- Honestly it doesn't matter which one you use in this case but at least with BS you can gain life in case they do somehow resolve a dude.


I suppose..



- The life link and vigilance helps a great deal for longer battles of attrition.


We have bigger problems than creatures in this match up (Deed/Choke/Vindicate/Kgrip/Knight of the Reliquary are all good examples of the problems we'll have).

For starters without CBT lock, you simply won't win this match up. They are so threat dense and so problematic that neither SFM nor goyf will win this alone. And given you have only 1 Batterskull in this deck vs my 4x Tarmogoyf, you aren't going to draw as many threats as I am. Not to mention your Batterskull is smaller than the majority of their creatures.



- I don't like maybes, I like certainties and when they drop the hydra, your gofy is useless. At least with BS you can gain life and possibly slow down the hydra by an extra turn.


I'm really just going to let you have this one. I really don't think NO is viable anymore for this to matter considering it is quite slow and soft against Zoo or dedicated control decks. I just don't think NO Pro will be played as much. It'll be in the Maverick decks and some Bant lists, but it really wont'be tier 1 material.

Even is NO Pro becomes a problem again, I wouldn't consider Batterskull as my out to it..



- No, that's why we run SFM since BS works very well against Merfolk.

So does Tarmogoyf.

[DragoFireheart]

No one is pretending, he's still the best wall we have.



- If that is truly how you feel than it's no wonder Supreme Blue lists have died out.

[jin]

- If that is truly how you feel than it's no wonder Supreme Blue lists have died out.

That's a grand statement. The reason why Supreme Blue is dying out isn't because it plays Tarmogoyf, it's because the deck times out a lot and is hard to play in an unknown metagame.

When Countertop was at its high, it was a more aggressive deck. In 2009, the metagame was fairly stable with no relevant bans until Mystical Tutor which shifted the metagame towards an aggro meta thus killing off Countertop. There were more incompetant combo players than there were control players. Now there are more incompetant control players than there are aggro players.

[DragoFireheart]

That's a grand statement. The reason why Supreme Blue is dying out isn't because it plays Tarmogoyf, it's because the deck times out a lot and is hard to play in an unknown metagame.

When Countertop was at its high, it was a more aggressive deck. In 2009, the metagame was fairly stable with no relevant bans until Mystical Tutor which shifted the metagame towards an aggro meta thus killing off Countertop. There were more incompetant combo players than there were control players. Now there are more incompetant control players than there are aggro players.

- Merfolk were usually the decks that helped kill of CounterTop decks. My comment was more referring to now than before. I simply don't see traditional Supreme Blue lists being viable at the moment.

[jin]

- Merfolk were usually the decks that helped kill of CounterTop decks. My comment was more referring to now than before. I simply don't see traditional Supreme Blue lists being viable at the moment.

Merfolk is another reason, but I wouldn't say it was the sole reason. Merfolk is an aggro deck with islandwalk, what can we do? It's still aggro..

At this point I think cbt (not just supreme blue) isn't viable. With stifle wasteland decks getting snapcaster and pack a set of four spell snares, I'm wondering if we'll receive the chance to cast our 2 drops at all....

[DragoFireheart]

Merfolk is another reason, but I wouldn't say it was the sole reason. Merfolk is an aggro deck with islandwalk, what can we do? It's still aggro..

- At least with batterskull you have some hope racing them/stabilizing. BS gives merfolk a hard time.



At this point I think cbt (not just supreme blue) isn't viable. With stifle wasteland decks getting snapcaster and pack a set of four spell snares, I'm wondering if we'll receive the chance to cast our 2 drops at all....

- Counterblade is my attempt to try and make CBT viable again. I do share your feelings in questioning if CBT of any flavor is viable in the least. A couple of Supreme Blue lists did top recently so there is hope:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/metagame.php?format=Legacy

[jin]

sorry double

[jin]

- I don't like maybes, I like certainties and when they drop the hydra, your gofy is useless. At least with BS you can gain life and possibly slow down the hydra by an extra turn.



- At least with batterskull you have some hope racing them/stabilizing. BS gives merfolk a hard time.

- Counterblade is my attempt to try and make CBT viable again. I do share your feelings in questioning if CBT of any flavor is viable in the least. A couple of Supreme Blue lists did top recently so there is hope:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/metagame.php?format=Legacy

You don't like 'maybes' but you are ok with 'hope'? That's somewhat contradictory. This is how I read it: "At least with batterskull you maybe have a chance to race them/stabilize." I'm not saying you are wrong; I'm just wanted to point out the condescension and contradiction.

I think Batterskull is strong against Merfolk if you get it fast enough, much like if you get Tarmogoyf big enough. I wouldn't result to racing them though as much as I would with pressuring them. I feel that the race just cannot be won by brute force alone given the utility provided by Phantasmal Image, Merrow Reejerey and Dismember. This is assuming all of your Swords to Plowshare will be aimed at LOA. They pack too much removal to slow us down. I don't know if SFM can come down turn 2.

I'm not too sure. I think without Mental Misstep, the format is too fast for SFM. I think to help CB, we probably have to adopt a Snapcaster shell. Here is my proposal:

3x Sensei's Diving Top
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Counterbalance
1x Oblivion Ring
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Spell Snare
2x Swrods to Plowshares
3x Jace, The MInd Sculptor
3x Ponder

2x Island
4x Misty Rainstforest
1x Mountain
1x Plains
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Tropical Island
2x Tundra
3x Volcanic Island

Right now, my only issue with it is there isn't enough 3 drops, so I'm thinking of shaving some ponders and jace2 for some playable three drops... but then I can't think of any playable three drops that might work right now.

[otherside]

Trinket Mage? and chuck in explosives.

[Malakai]

I'm not too sure. I think without Mental Misstep, the format is too fast for SFM. I think to help CB, we probably have to adopt a Snapcaster shell. Here is my proposal:

3x Sensei's Diving Top
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Counterbalance
1x Oblivion Ring
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Spell Snare
2x Swrods to Plowshares
3x Jace, The MInd Sculptor
3x Ponder

2x Island
4x Misty Rainstforest
1x Mountain
1x Plains
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Tropical Island
2x Tundra
3x Volcanic Island


I think it's interesting you think the format is too fast for Stoneforge Mystic, the proceed to run Snapcaster, Jace, and only 20 lands.

[jin]

I think it's interesting you think the format is too fast for Stoneforge Mystic, the proceed to run Snapcaster, Jace, and only 20 lands.

I like 20 lands. I do fine with it. Some people may like more lands. They can easily cut ponders for that. I like cantripping into them more than I like to top deck them.

Snapcaster bringing back lightning bolt and spell snare is fast.

Blue control deck without jace is silly..

[Valtrix]

Hello all. I've been a bit out of the Magic loop lately, but I have been theorizing for decklists a bit as of late. Unfortunately I don't have the time to keep fully up to date on the format/deck types, so I wanted to know what people think of the following list. I will first post it, and then add some explanation for the choices and why it seems like a strong choice to me (Note: I purposefully left out the sideboard):

// Lands
1 [MM] Tower of the Magistrate
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [R] Tundra
3 [R] Tropical Island
1 [UNH] Forest
4 [JGC] Flooded Strand
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ZEN] Island (3)
1 [RAV] Plains (2)
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [R] Savannah

// Creatures
4 [DDG] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
3 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [M12] Phantasmal Image

// Spells
1 [NPH] Batterskull
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Brainstorm
1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 [BRB] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top

Quickstats:
20 lands
18 blue cards
CC of 14-12-7-3-5

I like this list, because I think it has a strong mix of control, aggression, late game, and early game. I have played numerous practice games and the deck seems to run pretty smoothly. You get to run many of the best creatures in the game, all of which can win games by themselves. This is quite important: While I like utility creatures like snapcaster/trinket mage/etc, I feel like they lack power to close out games by themselves, whereas a tarmogoyf can win you the game in a few turns.

In particular, I think Knight is one of the strongest creatures in the current meta. Fixes your mana, is a gigantic beater, and is a great counter to stoneforge mystic with the inclusion of tower of the magistrate. You can also get Karakas to interact with Clique, although I am concerned that that might be a bit too cute.

The phantasmal image is there because it's very good almost every game, and I needed an extra blue card for force of will. It has surprising utility: copying stoneforges, killing progenitus, etc.

Hierarchs greatly boosts your early game plays when you can get him out, and the exalted helps in general to get in damage.

Then you have the countertop engine which I think supplements the aggressive nature of the deck. In games that draw out longer you should have the upperhand against most decks with top, and especially if you can setup the full countertop combo. Additionally, I like having counterbalance against combo, although it might not be as strong as the counterspells/discard setups that current decks have been running.

Some other things. Only 3 goyf, only 3 swords. I don't think that 4 swords is needed at the moment. It seems to me that there's not a lot of scary creatures out there since you should have the biggest ones, except maybe against reanimator. That said, swords is still a great tempo card so I think it's worth including. 3 goyf is probably okay currently, as I've been less impressed with him as other powerhouse cards have come out. Mostly, I replaced the 4th with 1 phantasmal image for blue count.

I was also considering going down to 3 counterbalance, because while it's a strong card I'm not sure it's wanted all the time early against current decks, so running 3 could possibly be very acceptable. I had also been considering going down to 3 force of will, though I do realize that it's almost certainly a bad idea. In some respects the 2-for-1 nature of the card can really hurt you in the current meta, but at the same token it's needed to deal with random things and the powerhouse cards people are running.

As for sideboard, I have no idea honestly. I wanted to run some tech using Eladamri's Call[/call] with some targets like [cards]Scavenging Ooze, Peacekeeper, Phantasmal Image, etc., but in the end I'm not sure it's currently worth it.

Anyway, just some thoughts and some theories. I'm pretty out of touch with Legacy at the moment, so I'd like some opinions from people more in the know. Thanks in advance!

[Lemnear]

Eladamri's Call <<<<< Green Suns Zenith

[Valtrix]

If you're not going to bother running Zenith in the main it's not about the tempo, it's about the utility. As such, I'd rather be able to get my images/peacekeepers/other non-green creatures. Zenith doesn't deal with Legendary creatures, to my knowledge, which is (or at least was) a huge deal with NO decks. Call also let's you get certain key cards out sooner. For example, you can get a scavenging ooze turn 2 and have it active on turn 3 or get a faerie macabre ready for GY hate on turn 2. While investing one more mana overall, you are able to have certain creatures in play/active sooner than you would be able to with Zenith. Additionally, the instant speed flexibility is relevant. Like I said though, I'm not convinced that it'd be worthwhile anyway, although it was an idea that I had rolling around since I'm a big fan of tutor boards. I could possibly just accomplish something similar, but better with some other tutor instead though.

[jin]

list..

Interesting list. You've essentially replaced Firespout with SFM and Batterskull which I see as an acceptable replacement. Since they both are about crowd control and they are both third turn. I do prefer Firespout, but whatever is your fancy.

I see two problems with your deck right now. The first is the decks aggro component which is rather slow and redundant. I think in a blue deck that has so much digging power, redundancy is less important as versatility. I think your deck is a little on the aggro side and not enough on the control side. I feel that if a deck were to rely some what more on spells, you'd be in for some trouble. I'm thinking cards like Hymn to Tourach, Vindicate, Propaganda, Null Rod will all be a big problem for you as you have no real way of removing them once they have resolved and no real way of stopping them from coming into play besides CB. I think you'll find that your match up against Zoo will be quite hard when they can keep you off of SFM and drop Qasali Pridemage which you cannot realistically answer besides bullying them into blocking or the 3x Swords to Plowshare.

The second problem I see is your mana-base. Unlike mine, which runs Ponders to dig for the lands, your deck doesn't have that. Instead you must rely on top decking, and with only 20 lands, I must say you are going to miss your land drops on your way to four. Your creatures all are at least 2 drops, so you'll have quite a hard time finding the mana to drop multiple threats at once disabling your aggro plan.

Also, I feel the Tower of Magistrate is quite unnecessary as you play Batterskull, Tarmogoyf, and Knight of the Reliquary which are all either equal or greater than enemy Batterskulls.

I hope you find my feedback helpful. Thanks for listening.

[Valtrix]

Thanks for your response, I appreciate it. Below are my responses, let me know what you think.


I see two problems with your deck right now. The first is the decks aggro component which is rather slow and redundant. I think in a blue deck that has so much digging power, redundancy is less important as versatility. I think your deck is a little on the aggro side and not enough on the control side.

This is an intentional choice. In order to have more control, you need to lose some of the aggro. However, I think so much aggro really helps you against control decks, while also serving somewhat of a control role in the aggro matchup. For example, decks which have few creatures and want to control the game more can have fits when they have to deal with SFM, Goyfs, and Knights: All things which can win the game on their own if not answered. If you run less aggro, your threats become easier to manage. Additionally, this gives you the opportunity to win games out of pure aggression, something you're unable to do with more control. This type of playstyle is a very important avenue to have, in my experience.

On the other hand, having big creatures like this also helps you in aggro matchups. Sure, it's perhaps a little slower than running removal or something, but throwing down a batterskull, goyf, etc. can create headaches for the aggro player. I admidt that it's not as good as striaght control versus these types of decks, but I think the dual purpose of the role against control and aggro is better than running more control.


I'm thinking cards like Hymn to Tourach, Vindicate, Propaganda, Null Rod will all be a big problem for you as you have no real way of removing them once they have resolved and no real way of stopping them from coming into play besides CB.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. How exactly is relying less on creatures going so solve what you claim to be the problem here? Hymn still hurts if you have less creatures, vindicate will still get the few threats you stick, etc. Propaganda and null rod are not really an issue in my opinion...If my opponent wants to use a card to slow me down, that's fine because I can play both aggro and control. Things like Null rod can also be dealt with in the board if they really feel like a problem, but it's a rather narrow SB card that I don't feel like is seeing a lot of play.


I think you'll find that your match up against Zoo will be quite hard when they can keep you off of SFM and drop Qasali Pridemage which you cannot realistically answer besides bullying them into blocking or the 3x Swords to Plowshare.

I do mostly agree with this, although I do think I have a lot of good tools to deal with them. Big creatures and batterskull go a long way. I think that I would address this matchup by adding sideboard so that it becomes a lot in my favor.


The second problem I see is your mana-base.

I very much disagree. How exactly is 20 lands, 4 brainstorms, 4 sensei's divining tops, 3 hierarchs, and 4 knights a bad mana base? It should be easy to use brainstorms/tops to dig for lands early if you need, plus hierarchs give you an early boost, and if you lay down a knight turn 3 you get to 4 mana easily. Having an aggro plan is not just about playing a lot of creatures in one turn. In this style of deck it's about being able to play high quality and high threatening creatures on more than one turn, which I think this deck can do.


Also, I feel the Tower of Magistrate is quite unnecessary as you play Batterskull, Tarmogoyf, and Knight of the Reliquary which are all either equal or greater than enemy Batterskulls.

Is this really the case though? It's not just batterskull tokens you have to worry about...It's when they put batterskull on their other creatures that you have a problem. For example, if you have a knight (especially early), that knight won't necessarily be able to win combat with a batterskull on a tarmogoyf. Or if other decks get sword of feast and famine I won't even be able to block. SFM is very popular currently, and I think that running one tower to get with knights is a great way to get the upperhand in this matchup.

[Dalapin]

I very much disagree. How exactly is 20 lands, 4 brainstorms, 4 sensei's divining tops, 3 hierarchs, and 4 knights a bad mana base? It should be easy to use brainstorms/tops to dig for lands early if you need...


I would agree that the hierarchs help, but normally I prefer to be digging for answers instead of lands. I would normally prefer 21 or 22 lands using my brainstorms and shuffle effects to find the right business spells or shuffle back extra lands. But it's fair to say I may be completely incorrect given your aggro strategy.

[jin]

Thanks for your response, I appreciate it. Below are my responses, let me know what you think.

This is an intentional choice. In order to have more control, you need to lose some of the aggro. However, I think so much aggro really helps you against control decks, while also serving somewhat of a control role in the aggro matchup. For example, decks which have few creatures and want to control the game more can have fits when they have to deal with SFM, Goyfs, and Knights: All things which can win the game on their own if not answered. If you run less aggro, your threats become easier to manage. Additionally, this gives you the opportunity to win games out of pure aggression, something you're unable to do with more control. This type of playstyle is a very important avenue to have, in my experience.

On the other hand, having big creatures like this also helps you in aggro matchups. Sure, it's perhaps a little slower than running removal or something, but throwing down a batterskull, goyf, etc. can create headaches for the aggro player. I admidt that it's not as good as striaght control versus these types of decks, but I think the dual purpose of the role against control and aggro is better than running more control.

This is all fine and true, but a more controlling version of Counterbalance Top is still an aggro control deck simply because of the aggro component that Tarmogoyf brings to the table. In this type of deck Tarmogoyf is on average a 4/5, maxing out at 6/7 by late game every game. There is no need to have anything less efficient than him. He, and he alone, can clear the way. I can see where you are coming from with KOTR, but KOTR is simply not as efficient as Tarmogoyf in this type of deck than he normally is in a Rock or Aggro Loam type deck. His presence is (in my opinion) somewhat unnecessary. You also have lots of redundancy in the goyf + SFM + Batterskull, so I can see why you are running 3x Tarmogoyf there.



I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. How exactly is relying less on creatures going so solve what you claim to be the problem here? Hymn still hurts if you have less creatures, vindicate will still get the few threats you stick, etc. Propaganda and null rod are not really an issue in my opinion...If my opponent wants to use a card to slow me down, that's fine because I can play both aggro and control. Things like Null rod can also be dealt with in the board if they really feel like a problem, but it's a rather narrow SB card that I don't feel like is seeing a lot of play.

Yeah, Null Rod was a poor example. I was thinking more along the lines of Trinisphere, Bloodmoon, Wrath of God, Break Through, Natural Order, Swords to Plowshare, Price of Progress, Green Sun's Zenith, Humility, Life from the Loam. What I'm saying is, without Counterspell (and to some extent Spell Snare), you have limited ways of stopping these things from coming down and even less ways of removing them once they resolved.



I do mostly agree with this, although I do think I have a lot of good tools to deal with them. Big creatures and batterskull go a long way. I think that I would address this matchup by adding sideboard so that it becomes a lot in my favor.

That's good, as long as you know..



I very much disagree. How exactly is 20 lands, 4 brainstorms, 4 sensei's divining tops, 3 hierarchs, and 4 knights a bad mana base? It should be easy to use brainstorms/tops to dig for lands early if you need, plus hierarchs give you an early boost, and if you lay down a knight turn 3 you get to 4 mana easily. Having an aggro plan is not just about playing a lot of creatures in one turn. In this style of deck it's about being able to play high quality and high threatening creatures on more than one turn, which I think this deck can do.


I would agree that the hierarchs help, but normally I prefer to be digging for answers instead of lands. I would normally prefer 21 or 22 lands using my brainstorms and shuffle effects to find the right business spells or shuffle back extra lands. But it's fair to say I may be completely incorrect given your aggro strategy.

I agree with Dalapin. I mostly use my Brainstorms late game to win the battle of attrition. I would hate to use Brainstorm for lands. Also, my Sensei's Divining Top doesn't come sometimes, which is annoying. I did overlook the Noble Hierarch, so that is better than expected, however, Noble Hierarchs add to your weakness against burns.



Is this really the case though? It's not just batterskull tokens you have to worry about...It's when they put batterskull on their other creatures that you have a problem. For example, if you have a knight (especially early), that knight won't necessarily be able to win combat with a batterskull on a tarmogoyf. Or if other decks get sword of feast and famine I won't even be able to block. SFM is very popular currently, and I think that running one tower to get with knights is a great way to get the upperhand in this matchup.

Yes, but you can fix this by playing Swords to Plowshare. If they equip a goyf with Batterskull, you can simply plow it, which is a HUGE tempo gain. Swords to Plowshare is also more versatile than the Tower of Magistrate. Plus you already have 3.. You only have 1 Tower, which you can only fetch for with KOTR... Assuming the other guy doesn't play Swords to Plowshare....

[JustPAT4]

I'm sure most of you have seen the list by now--RUG CounterTop won SCG Baltimore last night: here's the list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=41765). Calosso went in a much different direction than this thread was advocating last month, removing white from the build altogether.

Also, This Uwg list finished 8th at GP Amsterdamn (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7050&iddeck=51143)

Will these successes help make CB players believe it can win again?

[Jeff]

So . . . I'm totally new to this deck and considering trying something pretty close to Calosso's list from baltimore. I've played a lot of Tempo decks in the past and I'm very comfortable with all of the tempo elements, but I've actually never played a counterbalance list before. I was hoping someone in here could give me some guidelines on how to sideboard the counterbalance package in a deck like that.

I'm assuming sometimes you want to pull the counterbalances out, but I don't know against which decks you want to do that. When you pull the counterbalances, do you also pull the tops? Or just some of the tops? Fundamentally I just haven't played the list enough to understand what matchups I'm really going to want the counterbalances against, and which ones they're going to be subpar compared to other things I could be doing.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions/help.

J

[DragoFireheart]

I'm sure most of you have seen the list by now--RUG CounterTop won SCG Baltimore last night: here's the list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=41765). Calosso went in a much different direction than this thread was advocating last month, removing white from the build altogether.

Also, This Uwg list finished 8th at GP Amsterdamn (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7050&iddeck=51143)

Will these successes help make CB players believe it can win again?

- Looks like a bastard child of Surpreme Blue lists and BlueZoo. Dismember is strong enough to allow CB decks to not run white for swords. Not sure how I feel about having Daze in a CBT deck though.

[jin]

- Looks like a bastard child of Surpreme Blue lists and BlueZoo. Dismember is strong enough to allow CB decks to not run white for swords. Not sure how I feel about having Daze in a CBT deck though.

I think it's actually more like traditional CBT when it first diverted from Canadian Thresh - with Delver replacing Nimble Mongoose.

Yeah I agree with the Dismember. I wonder how the list deals with KOTR though...

The list is really about locking out the 1 drops like Swords to Plowshare and Lightning Bolt. I think the greatest strength though is that it can play without the CBT lock and still be quite a contender. I read the coverage and it seemed like he mostly played without CBT. Once it was down, the other guy just scooped. It also seemed like he didn't have to deal with Spell Snare too often in the finals. I suppose the digging power of his deck just helped him find better cards.

The Daze and the 18 lands really help the deck be aggressive since the power-band of this deck is really just the early and mid game. It slows down the already slow opponent while helping the Delver grow. I think Daze is also important to stall enemy Jace's. Once it enters in to the late game, it really relies on the tempo it gained earlier to win. I think if it didn't play this aggressively (with Daze and 18 lands), it would simply lose to slower control decks' late game power.

The main win-con is Delver. That thing is a beast. CB just protects it. I don't think it is moving too far away from how this forum is discussing though. A lot of NO rUG players are turning to CBT and cutting out Natural Order. Canadian Thresh type decks are just more threatening in a fast metagame.

It's not a Tom Martell list. It's a list that harkens back to the birth of CBT. I quite like Calosso's list even though it doesn't focus on the lock as much as I'd like it to...



So . . . I'm totally new to this deck...

Calosso's list is quite unique in that it's not really a CBT deck that focuses on CBT too much. I suppose it's a good starting place. I think you should worry about playing the main deck properly before you start thinking about sideboarding. That way, you can get a feel about what is important and what isn't.

Everyone really plays it differently. I personally like to completely lock out the opponent, so I never board out CBT, but it's argued that against some decks that run a varying curve, you should probably board it out. People like to board it out against decks like Goblins or other AEther Vial decks. I personally don't like that. It's really dependent on how focused on the lock you are...

Calosso's list doesn't focus on it too much, so I'm thinking 1-2 can come out when you feel that CB doesn't have enough power to win you the game. SDT generally never come out since it is rarely a bad top-deck..

To conclude, try the deck out first, and worry about sideboarding later.

[kiblast]

Calosso's list is really interesting. I like Delver / Goyf beatdown as wincon. But, I just can't understand the critical lack of 3cc spells to cover Kotr and Vindicate/Pulse. I understand that the main focus of the deck is not to establish the Countertop soft lock, but rather to control the early game like a ''tempo deck'' and bash with undercosted critters. But even Canadian (which philosophy and game style clearly influenced Calosso's build) almost folds to a resolved Kotr. And this deck doesn't even have Fire/Ice to try race it. I dig this list, but I'd really tweak it for a midrange aggro/ Maverick metagame.

[Dalapin]

So . . . I'm totally new to this deck and considering trying something pretty close to Calosso's list from baltimore. I've played a lot of Tempo decks in the past and I'm very comfortable with all of the tempo elements, but I've actually never played a counterbalance list before. I was hoping someone in here could give me some guidelines on how to sideboard the counterbalance package in a deck like that.

I'm assuming sometimes you want to pull the counterbalances out, but I don't know against which decks you want to do that. When you pull the counterbalances, do you also pull the tops? Or just some of the tops? Fundamentally I just haven't played the list enough to understand what matchups I'm really going to want the counterbalances against, and which ones they're going to be subpar compared to other things I could be doing.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions/help.

J

Hey Jeff, welcome to the club :-) Given you are comfortable with the tempo aspects of that list I thought I would just list and explain some typical and more technical counterbalance plays and interactions. Sorry if some of these seem too simple or obvious I'm just assuming you haven't played with Top or Counterbalance before. If other CB players have input I'd love to hear it. This is what I've learned...

Top:
Basic
- Take only 3 cards, carefully memorize your 3 cards and their order, and never put them near your hand. Some opponents out of desperation will actually be waiting to call a judge on you.
- Keeping a 1 lander with Top can be just as stupid as keeping a 1 lander with brainstorm.
- Your Top can easily force an opponent to Daze/Force on the first turn.
- Activate Top at the end of your opponents turn to set up your draw, but if you don't have mana then it's perfectly reasonable to activate Top on your upkeep if you need a certain draw.

Technical
- You generally don't want to see multiple tops, but if you do, you can play a second now, and combine a shuffle effect with it later to cantrip it.
- Top can protect itself by tapping to draw in response to a removal effect and even upkeep triggers that may threaten it.
- Activate top -> then tap it to draw -> then activate top, allows you to draw one of your top three cards, then move Top down from 1st to the 2nd of 3rd card on top.

Counterbalance:
Basic
- Always remember your flip triggers
- You can always use Brainstorm as a pseudo-Top to counter spells with CB (Best example is putting Force on top to nail their Force while keeping yours for a later spell)
- Playing CB "blind" (Where you don't know your top card) isn't necessarily bad; your curve is designed to help blind CB's counter 1's and 2's.
- CB triggers can be stifled by the opponent, but you still have a shot to counter Stifle with CB
- Your opponents X spells have a CMC equal to what they paid for it, this leads to situations where people will play EE for 3 using only 2 colors in an attempt to dodge your CB. See also Green Sun's Zenith.

Technical
- Don't always flip; if you know the top card won't counter their spell flipping is just extra information for your opponent.
- Turn 1 Brainstorm -> Turn 2 Counterbalance, guess which CMC your opponent will play after you pass the turn on turn 2, and use brainstorm to set it up. This is considered VERY tight CB play.
- Combine multiple CBs on the field with multiple shuffle effects to blind-flip against an opponents spell, then shuffle and blind-flip again.

Top + Counterbalance:
Typical
- Top allows you to place the correct CMC on top of your deck.
- Top can always be used to counter CMC 1 spells in a pinch by tapping it to draw.
- Flipping cards with the lock gives your opponent information, if you flip a 2 CMC now, and different 2 CMC next turn it's very likely you drew the other card.

Technical
- Each turn you must draw 1 of your top three cards, do not always take the best of the 3, make sure to LEAVE the 2 most important CMC for that matchup on top, i.e., CMC 3 if you expect KotR/Show and Tell/Vindicate or CMC 4 when you expect Jace/Natural Order and cannot deal with it using the cards you have in hand. (As opposed to just leaving CMC 1 and 2 on top)
- You opponent may attempt to bait you into tapping your Top to draw and follow up with a bigger spell after Top is on your deck and can no longer manipulate your cards. The easiest way to combat this is to keep a 1 CMC spell on top, barring that however you will simply have to be very vigilant about this type of play.
- Your opponent may also attempt to force something through by playing more spells than you have mana to activate top, in this case you may have to let weaker spells through to avoid losing to something larger.


Matchups: It's easier to list where you don't want Counterbalance out than it is otherwise. These are just the examples I could think of where you really don't want to play CB for one reason or another.

Dredge - Even if your CB counters Dread Return/Cabal Therapy they still get zombies, in the time it takes to setup CB+Top you could have been working on a much better game plan.

Merfolk - CB could work if they didn't have Aether Vial, CB is hit or miss based on that artifact; trying to get CB out before Aether Vial while always playing around Daze is just too hard.

Goblins - Actually play a pretty wide CMC curve, so even if they didn't have Aether Vial, it would be hard to counter all their spells.

MUD - The CMCs are just way to high in this deck for CB to be even remotely good.

Stompy - Generally the CMC curve sits right on 3, higher than you can reliably get 3 on top, and the fact that they dump cards onto the field without card advantage in mind usually means applying Swords -> Beater is enough advantage to keep you going.

Affinity - There is no way in Hell you will ever be able to counter anything with CB, it's just not possible.

G/W Aggro or Big Zoo - With Green Sun's Zenith their curve is actually 1 through 3 plus 1. This means you really really need a CMC 3 on top, which for most CB decks is hard to find reliably.

Enchantress - Unless you can reliably get 3 on top, where some of their best cards are, I would not recommend using CB here.

Note: Given you want to play Calosso's list, which has only 2 CMC 3 cards maindeck, any matchups such as G/W which utilizes several 3 CMC beaters and GSZ, you definitely want to pull CB for more tempo.

To more directly answer your question, in my experience you pull out the CBs, and generally you wouldn't want to remove Tops because they help you to find your sideboard cards. Sometimes, IF you expect your Tops to be too slow or too mana intensive for the pace of the matchup then I would pull a few tops out. Also with 4 Ponder 4 Brainstorm, finding your SB cards is still very doable without Top.

Hope this serves as a solid primer Jeff :-)

[hofzge]

What do you guys think about GerryTs recent build of RUG CounterTop with Grove of the Burnwillows (http://deckbox.org/mtg/grove%20of%20%20the%20burnwillows) and Punishing Fires (http://deckbox.org/mtg/punishing%20fires)?

RUG Countertop

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
2 Dismember
3 Force of Will
3 Punishing Fire
3 Spell Snare
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Cascade Bluffs
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Wooded Foothills
SB: 3 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Lightning Bolt
SB: 4 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Thrun, the Last Troll


The Deck has lots of late-game power against all the Snapcaster Tempo RUG or BUG decks with Punishing Fires and also Grim Lavamancer.

After a few games I have changed some sideboard cards to better deal with Knight of the Reliquary (e.g. -2 Thrun, the Last Troll, -1 Pyroblast (http://deckbox.org/mtg/pyroblast), -1 Lightning Bolt (http://deckbox.org/mtg/lightning%20bolt), +2 Submerge (http://deckbox.org/mtg/submerge), +2 Mind Harness (http://deckbox.org/mtg/mind%20harness)), as Bant and Maverick are quite a force here in Europe.

Does anyone have better options than Submerge (http://deckbox.org/mtg/submerge) against Knight of the Reliquary (http://deckbox.org/mtg/submerge) (optimally something that has a CMC of 3...).

[jin]

What do you guys think about GerryTs recent build of RUG CounterTop with Grove of the Burnwillows and Punishing Fires?

//NAME: RUG Countertop
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
2 Dismember
3 Force of Will
3 Punishing Fire
3 Spell Snare
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Cascade Bluffs
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Wooded Foothills
//Sideboard
SB: 3 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Lightning Bolt
SB: 4 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Thrun, the Last Troll

The Deck has lots of late-game power against all the Snapcaster Tempo RUG or BUG decks with Punishing Fires and also Grim Lavamancer.

After a few games I have changed some sideboard cards to better deal with Knight of the Reliquary (e.g. -2 Thrun, the Last Troll, -1 Pyroblast, -1 Lightning Bolt, +2 Submerge, +2 Mind Harness), as Bant and Maverick are quite a force here in Europe.

Does anyone have better options than Submerge against Knight of the Reliquary (optimally something that has a CMC of 3...).

Grove of the Burnwillows combo seems too slowf or this deck.. also it takes up lots of mana, which I don't like in a deck that runs CBT. The mana should all go to CBT. If I have to bring stuff back just to kill some weenies, I'm not going to be happy. Grim lavamancer just seems enough.

But GerryT's style is very different from mine. He's quite aggressive with CBT decks, and don't rely on the lock as much as I do. He relies on goyf more than anything.. LOL. I think that's why Thrun is in the board.

[Patrunkenphat7]

What do you guys think about GerryTs recent build of RUG CounterTop with Grove of the Burnwillows and Punishing Fires?

//NAME: RUG Countertop
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
2 Dismember
3 Force of Will
3 Punishing Fire
3 Spell Snare
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Cascade Bluffs
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Wooded Foothills
//Sideboard
SB: 3 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Lightning Bolt
SB: 4 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Thrun, the Last Troll

The Deck has lots of late-game power against all the Snapcaster Tempo RUG or BUG decks with Punishing Fires and also Grim Lavamancer.

After a few games I have changed some sideboard cards to better deal with Knight of the Reliquary (e.g. -2 Thrun, the Last Troll, -1 Pyroblast, -1 Lightning Bolt, +2 Submerge, +2 Mind Harness), as Bant and Maverick are quite a force here in Europe.

Does anyone have better options than Submerge against Knight of the Reliquary (optimally something that has a CMC of 3...).

Glad you asked this. I am running a similar build, except I have a 2nd Sea maindeck for my 3 Perish in the SB. Perish is so beast and ravages Knight, Goyf, and opposing Thruns. It murders Bant, Maverick, big Zoo, and Progenitus.

[hofzge]

Seems great! And also has CMC 3... perfect
This would look something like this:

RUG Countertop

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
2 Dismember
4 Force of Will
3 Punishing Fire
3 Spell Snare
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Cascade Bluffs
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Perish
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast


I cut one land and added Force of Will (http://deckbox.org/mtg/force%20of%20will) maindeck, which is very debateable (Could also be e.g. Counterspell -> CMC2). Other that that I played around with the grave hate, as i don't like Nihil Spellbomb (http://deckbox.org/mtg/nihil%20spellbomb) that much.

One of the bigger problems that this build has, is that it only runs 7 Fetchlands.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Your list looks like a big improvement on what Gerry was running.

Here is what I am testing. It abuses Legacy's best sweepers, Firespout and Perish, while increasing the 3 drop count from Gerry's list. And for all you nonbelievers out there, Punishing Fire is the real deal... I don't really know what else to say about it. I don't care if it costs a lot of mana to completely destroy your opponent's board with a single card. It makes questionable matchups (like Fish) quite favorable; I would love nothing more than to sit across from a Fish player round 1.

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance

3 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

3 Punishing Fire
2 Dismember
2 Firespout

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2 Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Flooded Grove
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn

SB
4 Pyroblast
3 Perish
1 Firespout
2 Krosan Grip
1 Darkblast
1 Punishing Fire
3 Nihil Spellbomb

Gerry said in an article that he didn't like his Lavamancers, and I agree. They are amazing on paper but die to all the Bolts and StP's being Snapcastered back and forth right now. Firespout is really strong, and I like 6 3 drops main, as those are some of our problem spells. I am running 1 Thrun maindeck to steal some game 1's against UW and the Countertop mirror. It's good against a variety of decks right now, and it's a cute way to kill opposing Thruns too. This could change, but I like it for now.

SB
Darkblast is sick - another great way to utilize the black splash. Mother, Hierarch, Goblins, Dark Confidant, and Snappy all don't want to play against Darkblast. You might be right about Spellbomb, but I will just test it and see... I like harder GY hate against Dredge, and I am not worried about combo with this deck.

[rchinnock]

4 snapcaster mage
2 vendillion clique
4 sensei's divining top
4 counterbalance
4 brainstorm
1 predict
4 swords of plowshares
2 vedalken shackles
4 spell snare
2 counterspell
4 force of will
4 jace, the mindsculptor

4 mishra's factory
4 tundra
4 misty rainforest
4 flooded strand
5 island

[Malakai]

Honestly Nassif's list from 2009 seems amazingly well-positioned right now.

[Derayler]

2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Preordain
4 Punishing Fire
2 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
3 Stifle

1 Flooded Strand
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland

1 Ancient Grudge
1 Firespout
2 Flusterstorm
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Perish
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Underground Sea

I know this deck doesn't play CB, but how good is CB in the meta game right now? This deck is pretty similar to most of the decks that are seeming to be very well positioned right now. I think that the only question is if it would be better to play CB or run more non-CB control cards. Cutting the stifles seems pretty logical as this is technically NTL, but that deck really just seems like a worse Tempo Thresh.

With Punishing Fire being able to beat a lot of decks in the meta single-handily means that we need to look at the rest of the decks that we need to beat and decide if the majority of them are weak to CB. Don't forget that CB can be boarded in if that would be better because having MB tops is never a bad thing especially in a deck like this.

To me it seems like the decks that lose to Fires are Non-Green Blade decks(UW and BW), BUG if you can kill goyf, Merfolk, and Tempo Rug gets murdered by this card.
Decks that don't lose to Fire is Bant, Maverick, Zoo, and the combo decks(reanimator, S&T, Dredge, and Storm mostly), depending on how popular they are in your meta. How good is CB at beating all of these decks as a whole?

P.S. KOTR decks seem to be like the hardest thing for this deck to beat which makes Perish look soooo good. Sorry for any grammer/ English mistakes.

[SupREME-10]

What are your chances if you try to run a mono blue counter top deck. Something like this.

Deck List
4 x Sensei's Divining Top
2 x Umezawa's Jitte
2 x Vedalken Shackles

4 x Brainstorm
4 x Counterbalance
2 x Counterspell
2 x Daze
4 x Force of Will
2 x Spell Snare
3 x Stifle

3 x Snapcaster Mage
3 x Delver of Secrets
2 x Vendilion Clique

3 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

15 x Island
4 x Mutavault
2 x Riptide Laboratory

Sideboard
2 x Ratchet Bomb
2 x Dismember
3 x Surgical Extraction
2 x Echoing Truth
2 x Energy Flux
2 x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2 x Propaganda

Anyway I just thought that I would put it out there, as I want to go without the RUG tech that I see enough of already.

[Tammit67]

Honestly Nassif's list from 2009 seems amazingly well-positioned right now.

Doesn't it though?

[bowvamp]

@mono blue list: Although the idea is admirable, you don't run any fetches, defeating a lot of the purpose of CBTop.

[SupREME-10]

@mono blue list: Although the idea is admirable, you don't run any fetches, defeating a lot of the purpose of CBTop.

Well I do have plenty of Fetchlands available to me so I could easily throw in +6 fetchlands - 6 Islands; but that also would open me up to Stifle users which I do see in my meta.

Thanks for the input as it is certainly something to try out.

[Piceli89]

Well I do have plenty of Fetchlands available to me so I could easily throw in +6 fetchlands - 6 Islands; but that also would open me up to Stifle users which I do see in my meta.

Thanks for the input as it is certainly something to try out.

How do you hope to maximize Countertop's (and Brainstorm) dig ability without fetchlands? This is the ground floor of the archetype. Stifle isn't an argument at all in comparison to the times you would fail to find the right cmc because of not being able to shuffle the deck.
Also, monoblue doesn't go anywhere. Add white, at least.

[SupREME-10]

Thanks as I can easily splash white to add the StoP package.

Something like this maybe.
Deck List
4 x Sensei's Divining Top
2 x Vedalken Shackles

4 x Brainstorm
4 x Counterbalance
2 x Counterspell
4 x Swords to Plowshares
4 x Force of Will
3 x Spell Snare

3 x Snapcaster Mage
3 x Delver of Secrets
2 x Vendilion Clique

3 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

5 x Island
2 x Flooded Strand
2 x Misty Rainforest
2 x Sculding Tarns
4 x Tundra
4 x Mishra's Factory
2 x Riptide Laboratory

Then I could ship things like the Jitte and the stifles to the SB. I actually like where your helping me take the list so thanks a lot.

[Erdvermampfa]

How you intend to deal with Thrun? This issue should be taken in consideration when building a control deck these days as he's at least a 1of in every g/w maverick deck, which is still fairly popular.
Why do you run only 9 CC2 cards? I mean, having at least 12 CC2 cards for your CB curve has become even more important since the print of Snapcaster. Keep in mind that you want CB to hit at random sometimes so you definitely need a solid cc curve. I feel 18(!) CC1 cards being way too much, especially since Delver of Secrets contributes nothing to your actual game plan. I see, he's the new novel of Legacy, but decks which get to use Delver mainly aim to end the game as quickly as possible, while this isn't CB's goal at all. I'd recommend to cut these and add 3 CC2 cards. Just add 2 additional Counterspells and 1 Phantasmal Image, which is great at dealing with Thrun and other Legends like Progenitus, Emrakul, Gaddock Teeg, Edric Clique etc. Furthermore, I feel that you need more cards which get done with a horde of creatures, as I consider swarm aggro to be the most diffult matchup. Wrath of god does great at that and also represents a solution to Thrun. I've been tweaking my U/w Cb list for a few weaks now and this is what I'd come up with right now:
edit: and run at least 8 fetchlands...

// Lands
1 [OD] Plains (1)
4 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
9 [CHK] Island (3)

// Creatures
3 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
1 [M12] Phantasmal Image
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
1 [10E] Wrath of God
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [CS] Counterbalance
1 [CFX] Path to Exile
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
4 [IA] Counterspell
1 [M12] Oblivion Ring
1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [10E] Wrath of God
SB: 1 [M12] Oblivion Ring
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [US] Arcane Laboratory
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [IA] Disenchant
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction

[Skeggi]

What are your chances if you try to run a mono blue counter top deck. Something like this.


4 x Sensei's Divining Top
4 x Brainstorm
3 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

15 x Island
4 x Mutavault
2 x Riptide Laboratory



The top 3 cards are infi better if you run fetchlands. And you run 0. Just sayin.

[SupREME-10]

OK I reworked the list; I am still very open to suggestions but please let me know if I am at least headed in the right direction.

OK I am trying to work this out a bit so bear with me.

Land == 20
2 x Flooded Strand -- fetch to manipulate
2 x Misty Rainforest -- fetch to manipulate
2 x Scalding Tarn -- fetch to manipulate
4 x Island -- basic
4 x Tundra -- spalsh
4 x Mutavault -- creature and a faerie
2 x Riptide Laboratory -- utility land

1 Drops == 15
4 x Sensei's Divining Top -- key component to manipulate Library
4 x Brainstorm -- hand and library manipulation + card draw
3 x Spell Snare -- stop those 2 drops
4 x Swords to Plowshares -- exile opponent fatties that land.

2 Drops == 15 -- trying for about 12-14 (suggestions welcome)
2 x Umezawa's Jitte -- versatile equipment
4 x Counterbalance -- key component to achieve lockdown
2 x Counterspell -- for when a hard counter
2 x Daze -- soft counter for early game
3 x Snapcaster Mage -- instant recursion for graveyard cards
2 x Spellstutter Sprite -- creature that helps counterspells

3 Drops == 4 -- trying for about 6-8 (suggestions welcome)
2 x Vedalken Shackles -- use the opponents fatties
2 x Vendilion Clique -- control with punch

4 Drops == 3 -- trying for about 3-4 (suggestions welcome)
3 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor -- fateseal

5 Drops == 4
4 x Force of Will -- counterspells without mana if needed

Sideboard
2 x Wrath of God
3 x Surgical Extraction
2 x Ratchet Bomb
2 x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
4 x Stifle
2 x Disenchant

Plenty of work to do still; but I think that this breakdown is actually helping me work through the list more and more. Suggestions, ideas and even general comments are always welcome.

Cheers

[Malakai]

In actual practice Mutavault is going to be abysmal compared to Mishra's Factory.

I don't see a reason to not run a basic plains.

I don't understand any of the sideboard choices. Shackles is already a better Wrath, and you won't be able to resolve Wrath in time against Goblins or Merfolk, if you can ever resolve it.

Surgical Extraction...why? You already have the tools to beat Life from the Loam decks, Extraction is insufficient against dredge, and Reanimator is already extremely favorable.

I have no idea what Stifle is for, as you don't have enough pressure to take advantage of it as a land destruction spell. If it's for combo, then Flusterstorm is strictly better. But you're CounterTop--you don't board cards for combo unless those cards are intended for control matchups (i.e. they are incidentally good vs. combo).

Ratchet Bomb? EE seems like it would always be superior.

Llawan is fine, but your actual plan against fish is to beat them with Jitte, so more cards that get you to that point would fit better. Path to Exile would work, and also be useful against Goblins, Zoo. This also fits into the Shackles plan you have going. As the person who has probably played Countertop with Shackles more than anyone, I cannot recommend trying this route enough.

[Malakai]

Also, and this probably goes for every version: Counterbalance comes out against Merfolk and Goblins.

[SupREME-10]

OK, since the focus of the reply was toward the SB I worked on that first, and I am working with cards I own so no EE (Sorry).

Anyway, here is a revised Sideboard
* 2 x Ratchet Bomb
* 2 x Relic of Progenitus
* 2 x Tormod's Crypt
* 1 x Flusterstorm
* 2 x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
* 2 x Spell Pierce
* 2 x Disenchant
* 2 x Path to Exile

PS, I like Mutavaults to work with the Sprites for more Faeries but I have mishra's too.

And thanks so far, how does the curve up top look now, etc ?

[Malakai]

I don't really think it's worthwhile to discuss sub-optimal options in a deck that runs around $1000 USD, especially if the optimal one isn't in the Grim Tutor / Moat / Tabernacle price range.

[Malakai]

Well I do have plenty of Fetchlands available to me so I could easily throw in +6 fetchlands - 6 Islands; but that also would open me up to Stifle users which I do see in my meta.

Thanks for the input as it is certainly something to try out.

I have said this before, and I am saying it again now. You should know every time you are going to be Stifled, and you should know when to play around it, when to take the risk, and when to bait the Stifle. Play skill is essential in all decks; in this one that is especially true.

If you can't do what I've described, then you do not understand the format and the deck well enough to understand how to build a proper list. Magic is one of the most difficult games ever made--you can't walk into it expecting to be good at it without putting in the work.

[Erdvermampfa]

I highly doubt that this kind of deck works without at least 22 lands, especially if you run a whole bunch of nonbasics.

[berry]

Originally posted this in the next level threshold thread, but since it's a mix of that and this, I'll post it here too:

Been playing RUG CB-tempo (basically thresh with CB, for simplicity) last few weeks but wasn't happy with being both tempo and CB, so I brewed into something different.

I know this is basically GerryT's list without PFs:

(4 Delver of Secrets
OR
4 Snapcaster Mage)
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
2 Jace
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top

8 Fetch
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland

Thoughts? Enough Flippage for Delver? 4 Tops should help, they are best friends. Is Snapcaster too mana-intensive for CB/Top-decks?

I know some people think PF is godsent, I still won't play it, so that's not the opinions I want.

[SupREME-10]

I am actually not new to MTG, I took about a 10 year hyatis and am now rebuilding and building some decks to get back into the scene. Yes the rules changed a little (stack timings and priority, etc) but I have been lurking for some time before I actually spoke here in "the Source" and I do play fairly often. Even made it to an event or three in the last year. No top 8's in big events yet; but between Sligh, Merfolk, Solidarity, and U/W Stoneblade I have done well enough (for a returning old dude that is on a bit of a budget). I liked what I saw in the Counter-Top deck style I started to play with the deck and simply started it with the basics in the hopes that some people would actually explain their reasoning behing using certain things instead of just blurting out -here + there.

I started with Mono-blue as that was the tech I was most used to. Sligh, Merfolk, and Solidarity all being Mono colour decks. I certainly understand how to bait a Stifle, etc; but I really do appreciate your comment as it is very relavent and true; and I thank you for you no non-sence but discriptive answer. As I mentioned I don't own every card in the MTG library; but I have been able to trade into most things I want in a couple weeks so I am not overly daunted by card cost, etc. I secretly managed to retain 20-ish dual lands and some spare Force of Wills to use as trader cards from when I left MTG on my Hyatis.

Now as you might see from my most recent deck list, I have been altering the deck to come to a better end product; but I am still open to ideas and suggestions.

Land == 20
2 x Flooded Strand -- fetch to manipulate
2 x Misty Rainforest -- fetch to manipulate
2 x Scalding Tarn -- fetch to manipulate
4 x Island -- basic
4 x Tundra -- splash
4 x Mutavault -- creature and a faerie (could easily be basic lands or Mishra's Factory should I drop the Sprites).
2 x Riptide Laboratory -- utility land

1 Drops == 15
4 x Sensei's Divining Top -- key component to manipulate Library
4 x Brainstorm -- hand and library manipulation + card draw
3 x Spell Snare -- stop those 2 drops
4 x Swords to Plowshares -- exile opponent fatties that land.

2 Drops == 15 -- trying for about 12-14 (suggestions welcome)
2 x Umezawa's Jitte -- versatile equipment
4 x Counterbalance -- key component to achieve lockdown
2 x Counterspell -- for when a hard counter (thinking +1 here)
2 x Daze -- soft counter for early game (thinking of dropping)
3 x Snapcaster Mage -- instant recursion for graveyard cards (thinking +1 here)
2 x Spellstutter Sprite -- creature that helps counterspells (thinking of dropping)

3 Drops == 4 -- trying for about 6-8 (suggestions welcome)
2 x Vedalken Shackles -- use the opponents fatties (thinking +1 here)
2 x Vendilion Clique -- control with punch (thinking +1 here)

4 Drops == 3 -- trying for about 3-4 (suggestions welcome)
3 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor -- fateseal (thinking of +1 Elspeth, Knight Errant but maybe drop a JTMS too))

5 Drops == 4
4 x Force of Will -- counterspells without mana if needed

Sideboard
* 2 x Ratchet Bomb
* 2 x Relic of Progenitus
* 2 x Tormod's Crypt
* 2 x Flusterstorm
* 2 x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
* 1 x Spell Pierce
* 2 x Disenchant
* 2 x Path to Exile

Anyway, like I said; this is a deck that I am working on and will continue to refine as I gain more experience etc. I thank you all for the discussion as I really does help a lot, and I look forward to eventually completing this deck to a competitive level as my skills continue to improve to where they were all those years ago.

[Erdvermampfa]

First thing to point out is that this deck needs at least 22 Lands and being honest, I'd rather tend to 23. I mean, the Countertop lock requires a lot of mana (since you also want to keep Fetchlands uncracked for the shuffle effect) and therefore your goal is to hit a landdrop at least the first 3 turns, not to mention that Jace is a 4 mana spell and snapcaster mage requires at least 3 mana for proper use as well. Besides, Wasteland is everywhere and you run 0 basic plains(!) while having 6 colorless nonbasics in an insufficient amount of lands. And as I've stated earlier, you ought to pack at least 8 Fetchlands since Jace, Brainstorm and especially Counterbalance get indefinitely better by every additional shuffling effect. This is my proposal:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 tundra
1-2 Plains (depends on the amount of Counterspells/wraths/elspeth)
9 Island

Furthermore, those 2 Umezawa's Jittes seem to be completely out of place considering that you run only 7 creatures (equiping mutavault is simply too uneffective and requires too much mana). I know that I adviced you to run at least 12 CC2 cards but as I mentioned, there are other valid options for this spot which fit in the deck's gameplan more overall. ( more counterspells, phantasmal image etc. ).

So this would be the most crucial things that should definitely be changed. There are some other cards which I'd normally not agree with but I know that every player has got his own preferences and running spellstutter or daze is legit to some extent...

[jin]

I certainly understand how to bait a Stifle, etc; but I really do appreciate your comment as it is very relavent and true; and I thank you for you no non-sence but discriptive answer.

Welcome back. I think if you feel mono-blue is the route to go, you should have at it. Mono-blue (that isn't merfolk) is gaining a lot of power right now as their win-cons are starting to require less of the other splashes.

With BS/Ponder and SDT, you should consider playing the Delver of Secrets.

Assuming you ignore the white splash, I think some other strong blue removal except for Vendalken Shackles is Repeal and Echoing Truth. You can consider those. I would also cut Daze for hard counters like Counter Spell and Spell Snare because a control deck that runs CBT and Vendalken Shackles doesn't really want to slow themselves down with Daze.

I think if you cut the Spellstutters and Daze to make room for some Ponders, you should be fine. You could even consider dropping an SDT since you run Snapcaster to bring back your Brainstorms/Ponders.

Oh yeah, you never want to run Jitte in a deck that runs less than 15 creatures, so cut that for sure. You are probably better off with Cursed Scroll.

But I think the best way to go about a monolist is really just Stifle + Phyrexian Dreadnought. You solve a lot of problems that way.

[DragoFireheart]

Within three more sets or so, a mono-blue Countertop should be viable.

[Malakai]

Within three more sets or so, a mono-blue Countertop should be viable.

Uh, may I point out Probasco's list from GP: Chicago 2009? I guess he did splash for EE.

[Malakai]

I wouldn't run Stifle-Dreadnaught in a mono blue list; those cards don't do enough, and are way outside the plan of the deck. I'd rather just win with some combination of Shackles, Jace, Trinket Mage, Snapcaster, and Delver.

The issue with being mono blue is that you gain very little by being one color, whereas having a second color gains you so much.

[wh4tever]

Just a random interjection. Testing this list for (with a lot of smaller/sometimes bigger changes) the last two months.

// Lands
4 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
2 Tundra
6 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Karakas

// Creatures
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Snapcaster Mage

// Spells
4 Counterspell
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Pyroclasm
3 Spell Pierce
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Lightning Helix
1 Isochron Scepter

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Propaganda
SB: 2 Stifle
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Moat
SB: 1 Energy Flux
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Seal of Cleansing
SB: 1 Phyrexian Metamorph

I only wanne know, if u think, hmmm probably interesting or what the hell, total bullshit.

gl+hf

[Malakai]

Posting a deck list and not explaining the choices you made that differ from the norm isn't very useful.

[jin]

I wouldn't run Stifle-Dreadnaught in a mono blue list; those cards don't do enough, and are way outside the plan of the deck. I'd rather just win with some combination of Shackles, Jace, Trinket Mage, Snapcaster, and Delver.

The issue with being mono blue is that you gain very little by being one color, whereas having a second color gains you so much.

Dreadstill can play with all of those. You are just shoving a fast win-con so you don't have to deal with Thrun directly. It's a very viable strategy. The only problem is, it takes up a lot of slots, which is fine in a mono coloured list.

You can still play Snapcasters and Delvers in a Dreadstill list.

[SupREME-10]

Thanks Jin for that note up there; here is where I initially put a mono-blue CounterTop deck.


What are your chances if you try to run a mono blue counter top deck. Something like this.

Deck List
4 x Sensei's Divining Top
2 x Umezawa's Jitte
2 x Vedalken Shackles

4 x Brainstorm
4 x Counterbalance
2 x Counterspell
2 x Daze
4 x Force of Will
2 x Spell Snare
3 x Stifle

3 x Snapcaster Mage
3 x Delver of Secrets
2 x Vendilion Clique

3 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

15 x Island
4 x Mutavault
2 x Riptide Laboratory

Sideboard
2 x Ratchet Bomb
2 x Dismember
3 x Surgical Extraction
2 x Echoing Truth
2 x Energy Flux
2 x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2 x Propaganda

Anyway I just thought that I would put it out there, as I want to go without the RUG tech that I see enough of already.

Now from that I so see that Fetchlands help a lot, so lets switch it over to have some 6-8 fetches.
Then I drop the Jitte's (no issue there as it gives my room for Ponder as you mentioned -- although with the Mutavaults I was at some 14 creatures).
Drop the Daze for more Spell Snare (again not an issue).
And Stifle could stay or go, but some form of Bounce is needed if I am not land stalling fetches, etc; so lets say Repeal goes into that slot. (I don't own any Phyrexian Dreadnaughts although I do like them).

OK, so now I relook at the deck from the 0-1-2-3-4-5 standpoint.

0 drops == 21
8 x Snow Covered Island
2 x Flooded Strand
3 x Scalding Tarn
3 x Misty Rainforest
3 x Mutavault
2 x Riptide Laboratory

1 drop == 16
4 x Brainstorm
2 x Ponder
4 x Sensei's Divining Top
3 x Spell Snare
3 x Delver of Secrets

2 drop == 13
4 x Counterbalance
2 x Echoing Truth
4 x Counterspell
3 x Snapcaster Mage

3 drop == 4
2 x Vedalken Shackles
2 x Vendilion Clique and I know 3 would be better but I have not found a third yet and this is real life not internet fantasy so I will let you know when I can pry one more from somebodies bloody fingers. I might drop a SDT if I do find another V-Clique though

4 drop == 3
3 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

5 drop = 4
4 x Force of Will

So set the sideboard aside for now, is this actually a decent starting point ? Is 19 options on flipping a Delver of Secrets enough, how do the numbers look, etc ? Oh and with my 11 creatures the Umezawa's Jitte in place of echoing truth might actually have more relevance as it can turn into a good removal package, or life, or added punching power as needed.

Yes it loses the removal that the white splash offered it as well as some sideboard options that is for sure; but I actually am thinking of going a bit rogue with this deck and going back to mono-blue for a while. I like simplicity sometimes and this is a hobby deck for me, I already have Merfolk, U/W StoneBlade, Solidarity, and Sligh completed for daily usage.

Thanks in advance and no points will be discounted but at least now I do feel that both the Mono-Blue version and the U/W version I was stringing together might both have good playing options.

[Malakai]

Note: I don't know how the following applies to Thopter lists.

At this point I am starting to think that Countertop lists need to run 8 pieces of removal. 4 of those should be a 1cc removal spell--most of the time this is going to be Swords to Plowshares.

Basically, CounterTop is a late-game engine, and it is a dominant one. We need to ensure that we get there. You always have the option of just jamming 4 Path to Exile, but the downside of that card is a lot more real than them just gaining life.

I'm not sure what the correct shell is, but it starts with choosing your creatures; the plans that I can see working are:

Stoneforge Mystic -- Stoneforge can be kind of slow, especially if the opponent doesn't let you untap with it. However, what it does for the Merfolk matchup can't be ignored. It also beats up on jank decks if you don't have byes going into the tournament--something which is becoming a lot more common.
Tarmogoyf -- The one issue with running Goyfs is that you'll probably be forced to go 4-color, or run 4 PTE.
Delver -- I don't really like this option that much, as you're really just jamming CounterTop into a UR Delver shell, a plan which I feel weakens both strategies.
Dark Confidant -- You get Ghastly Demise, Inquisition (if you want it), plus Perish out of the board; however, Bob can't block and isn't great for beating down either, which starts to make him more of a late-game engine as well.

[DragoFireheart]

Dark Confidant -- You get Ghastly Demise, Inquisition (if you want it), plus Perish out of the board; however, Bob can't block and isn't great for beating down either, which starts to make him more of a late-game engine as well.
[/LIST]

You can drop Bobs early to force them to spend mana getting rid of him. If they don't, they lose to the card advantage we get. If they get rid of him, it buys us some time.

The biggest threats are things like KotR or swarms. Going a punishing Fire route with Firespout backup can help for the swarms, while having more main-deck removal to kill big creatures like KotR will solve those.

I do agree that we need 8 main deck removal. 4 STP and 4 of something else is absolutely needed. Having a Tarmogofy when decks can search for KotR or Scavenging Ooze makes him seem very lackluster. Perhaps splashing black for Lilly (to fill our 3cmc) for create killing could work?

[Anusien]

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor
1 Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Mountain
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
7 Island

I am super happy with this list. I sideboard in Grim Lavamancers in the mirror, REB against combo decks and Merfolk, Firespout against Zoo, and I have a random Blood Moon and some combo hate.

This is heavily metagamed against beating the other blue decks. Since Spell Snare is on the rise, you really want to use your turn 3 to drop a CB (or I guess a SFM) with counter-backup. You don't need the full 4 Snare because you don't really care about Snapcasters in the late game.

I seriously question whether the equipment package should just be 2 Batterskull. My main concern is that the UW Caw lists have a ton of flyers (Clique isn't a trump if they have a Spellstutter Sprite), so being able to put SoFI on my guy to punch through and kill their Jace could be very important.

[Piceli89]

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor
1 Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Mountain
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
7 Island

I am super happy with this list. I sideboard in Grim Lavamancers in the mirror, REB against combo decks and Merfolk, Firespout against Zoo, and I have a random Blood Moon and some combo hate.

This is heavily metagamed against beating the other blue decks. Since Spell Snare is on the rise, you really want to use your turn 3 to drop a CB (or I guess a SFM) with counter-backup. You don't need the full 4 Snare because you don't really care about Snapcasters in the late game.

I seriously question whether the equipment package should just be 2 Batterskull. My main concern is that the UW Caw lists have a ton of flyers (Clique isn't a trump if they have a Spellstutter Sprite), so being able to put SoFI on my guy to punch through and kill their Jace could be very important.

This belongs to app. 3 months ago (there's a very similar list in another SFM-CBtop thread in Developmental), and totally folds to Maverick. Already tried.

[Anusien]

I am not really worried about Maverick with this list.

[Koby]

I am not really worried about Maverick with this list.

You have some brass one Anusien. However, the list does not look like it can sustain any positive board presence against a good Maverick list. How does it answer a steady stream of GSZ targets? Or even a Thrun?

[thecrav]

I am not really worried about Maverick with this list.

Can you clarify why, exactly, that is?

[Malakai]

I find Stoneforge Mystic to be miserable against any deck with Lightning Bolt, and right now that's all of them.

[jin]

I think black is just out of the question, it feels like discard is far inferior to any type of disruption spell as it is negated by a strong top deck.

I'm interested in the goyf approach. Why can't you play dismember instead of swords to plowshare and cut white all together? Goyf is enough to stop oncoming attacks. KOTR is a problem though.

Suggestions?


Note: I don't know how the following applies to Thopter lists.

At this point I am starting to think that Countertop lists need to run 8 pieces of removal. 4 of those should be a 1cc removal spell--most of the time this is going to be Swords to Plowshares.

Basically, CounterTop is a late-game engine, and it is a dominant one. We need to ensure that we get there. You always have the option of just jamming 4 Path to Exile, but the downside of that card is a lot more real than them just gaining life.

I'm not sure what the correct shell is, but it starts with choosing your creatures; the plans that I can see working are:

Stoneforge Mystic -- Stoneforge can be kind of slow, especially if the opponent doesn't let you untap with it. However, what it does for the Merfolk matchup can't be ignored. It also beats up on jank decks if you don't have byes going into the tournament--something which is becoming a lot more common.
Tarmogoyf -- The one issue with running Goyfs is that you'll probably be forced to go 4-color, or run 4 PTE.
Delver -- I don't really like this option that much, as you're really just jamming CounterTop into a UR Delver shell, a plan which I feel weakens both strategies.
Dark Confidant -- You get Ghastly Demise, Inquisition (if you want it), plus Perish out of the board; however, Bob can't block and isn't great for beating down either, which starts to make him more of a late-game engine as well.

[Malakai]

I think black is just out of the question, it feels like discard is far inferior to any type of disruption spell as it is negated by a strong top deck.

I'm interested in the goyf approach. Why can't you play dismember instead of swords to plowshare and cut white all together? Goyf is enough to stop oncoming attacks. KOTR is a problem though.

Suggestions?

Dismember's 4 life is very significant. Between fetches, force, and that...you're basically starting games at 10-12 life.

The following list has tested well against the meta:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Island
1 Plains
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
2 Academy Ruins
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice (Jitte might be better)
3 Trinket Mage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Spell Snare
3 Snapcaster Mage

If you take out the trinket mage package, you lose strength against cmc4 spells. The solutions for that are Counterspell and Oblivion Ring, and/or running your own (I prefer the former). Keep in mind that without Trinket Mage you need to work on your 3cc count--I like at least 4, if not 5. Also, with the loss of bodies your sword/jitte should probably just become a second batterskull.

[Teknique]

@Malakai
Aside from FoW and a lucky escape from wastelands to kill your EE for 4, how do you stop Jace? I'm not saying it's absolutely wrong not to play the King, but it seems like it is. If they play Jace, how do you deal with it?

Most people seem to agree that jamming SFM in a deck with CB is tough work, do you typically attempt to control and play SFM turn 5-6 with CBtop protection, or run a different game plan?

Seeing as you're the one who's tested it mind elaborating more on the different matchups that you've actually played and how it plays out?

Edit: I also see you running 2 Academy Ruins, what's the reason behind this?

[Malakai]

Really? This deck is loaded with answers to Jace. We can play a Pithing Needle at any time. We can play EE at 4. We have Snapcaster, which is pretty good against Jace. We have Batterskull, plus any guy equipped with SoFI will probably kill him, and half the time be unblockable. All that, plus they have to scry 1 instead of fateseal us.

The big problem with Jace against CounterTop is if our enchantment is in play, their Jace is going to die. We can resolve creatures and removal, but they cannot. Jace simply doesn't clock fast enough to stop us from eventually killing it.

I don't like the card in legacy. He was plain stupid in standard, he continues to be stupid in Vintage, and he was rightfully banned in Modern. And playing a Jace when your opponent is holding a Snapcaster Mage is miserable.

I run 2 Academy Ruins because I want to recur my artifacts. If my opponent bothers to kill a Pithing Needle, it's probably a gamebreaking card. If one of my pieces of equipment dies, I can get it back. Some decks literally cannot beat a recurring Engineered Explosives. The card does more work after sideboarding. So the answer to your question is basically: it's the best utility land I could find.

However, right now there are a lot of valid options. Academy Ruins is just my favorite. I could also see: Tower of the Magistrate, Karakas, Riptide Laboratory, Mishra's Factory.

--------------------

Matchups:
vs. RUG Delver
You are a better version of the deck they sideboard into for the mirror. In testing, basically the only games where they had a chance involve them going first, and having two one-drops, two lands, and a Spell Snare.

vs. UW Blade
You're basically the same deck, except they have Hell's Thunder and Jace while you have Sensei's Divining Top and this other card that stops them from playing any spells. Game 1 can go either way. The matchup is all about who wins the Batterskull war. You have all the tools, and they have some guys and Sword of Feast and Famine. Honestly, the matchup plays out very similarly to Caw-Blade vs. Cawless-Blade-Exarch-Twin. Basically, both of you are trying to leverage Stoneforge Mystic, except one of these decks is capable of untapping and winning instantly, while the other is not.

vs. Dredge
You try to get lucky game 1. Counterbalance is actually fine against them. You try to setup ee@0, you wasteland them if they're on 1 land, and flash in snapcasters to block and remove bridges. Games 2 and 3, you continue to do all of that, except you now you can use Academy Ruins and Nihil Spellbomb to remove their graveyard every turn.

vs. Burn/Mono-Red
The only card in their 75 that can beat you is Sulfuric Vortex.

vs. Storm
Try not to grin too much when you keep your hand. Post-board it gets even better.

vs. Hive-Mind/Eureka
Admittedly, this can be rough. Having Spell Pierce in your board drastically improves this matchup. You just have to setup Counterbalance at 3, and counter their hardcasts. Back in the day, this and Natural Order were the reason for running 2-3 Counterspell in the main. Boseiju is half the reason I've got Wastelands in here.

vs. Maverick
Green Sun's Zenith is a mixed bag. On one hand, they can now go over Counterbalance so that they can resolve threats. On the other hand, they used to run four Qasali Pridemages, and now generally only have 1, maybe two. I like to bring in a Grafdigger's Cage from the board, as it shuts down GSZ, KotR, and Natural Order if they have that plan. I also like to have Sword of Body and Mind, and some additional early removal.

vs. Goblins
Your plan is to try to Abyss them with SoFI before they kill you. You use every card you can to "aggressively" not die, i.e. Force of Will on the first thing they play, etc. This has always been a terrible matchup. We only tried it once, and it's still terrible.

[Anusien]

I find Stoneforge Mystic to be miserable against any deck with Lightning Bolt, and right now that's all of them.
I really enjoy casting Batterskull against tempo decks with Lightning Bolt. It's also totally sweet with you cast Stoneforge Mystic and they have to kill it.

You can't keep a hand that does nothing but try to play SFM on 2 and activate on 3, but it's a fine plan in the long run.

[Anusien]

Note: I don't know how the following applies to Thopter lists.

At this point I am starting to think that Countertop lists need to run 8 pieces of removal. 4 of those should be a 1cc removal spell--most of the time this is going to be Swords to Plowshares.

Basically, CounterTop is a late-game engine, and it is a dominant one. We need to ensure that we get there. You always have the option of just jamming 4 Path to Exile, but the downside of that card is a lot more real than them just gaining life.

I'm not sure what the correct shell is, but it starts with choosing your creatures; the plans that I can see working are:

Stoneforge Mystic -- Stoneforge can be kind of slow, especially if the opponent doesn't let you untap with it. However, what it does for the Merfolk matchup can't be ignored. It also beats up on jank decks if you don't have byes going into the tournament--something which is becoming a lot more common.
Tarmogoyf -- The one issue with running Goyfs is that you'll probably be forced to go 4-color, or run 4 PTE.
Delver -- I don't really like this option that much, as you're really just jamming CounterTop into a UR Delver shell, a plan which I feel weakens both strategies.
Dark Confidant -- You get Ghastly Demise, Inquisition (if you want it), plus Perish out of the board; however, Bob can't block and isn't great for beating down either, which starts to make him more of a late-game engine as well.

A) 8 pieces of spot removal is kind of sad against the Nimble Mongoose decks. I don't consider 8 or even 4 spot removal spells mandatory; they're bad against a fair number of decks including sometimes UW Blade. For example I board out at least a Swords to Plowshares against RUG.
B) The point of building around a cheap creature isn't to have it. It's to have some sort of guy you can play out instead of playing removal. An unanswered Goyf or Stoneforge Mystic fetching Batterskull dominates the board. Neither Delver nor Dark Confidant fulfill this role, so I wouldn't really consider them. It's like this; if you were saying we need 8 removal spells, that could be 4 Swords 4 Stoneforge Mystic.

The only 2 drops that seem to fulfill this role are Goyf and Stoneforge Mystic. Knight does it at 3, as does Plumveil. The creature needs to have power or there's no disincentive to swing in (so nothing like Wall of Roots or Wall of Blossoms).

[Malakai]

I more or less agree on all points. Note that some of the things I said are now outdated.

[SupREME-10]

I find it sad that the Grand Prix Indianapolis had people playing the Counter-Top mechanism as a SB feature. I wish this deck could come back to have some of the strength it had in years past.

I think Stoneforge is the strongest addition right now; but for gear I was considering Manriki-Gusari as a way to deal with all the other equipment I see being used (in addition to my own Batterskul and Jitte).

Comments and ideas are always welcome.

Here is where my deck is at (comments appreciated, as I want this to get better and better if possible).

0 Drops = 22
1 x Arid Mesa
3 x Flooded Strand
6 x Island
2 x Misty Rainforest
2 x Plains
1 x Riptide Laboratory
2 x Scalding Tarn
3 x Tundra
2 x Wasteland

1 drops = 14
4 x Sensei's Divining Top
4 x Brainstorm
2 x Spell Snare
4 x Swords to Plowshares

2 drops = 13
1 x Manriki-Gusari
2 x Counterspell
3 x Snapcaster Mage
4 x Counterbalance
3 x Stoneforge Mystic

3 drops = 5
1 x Sword of Fire and Ice
2 x Vendilion Clique
2 x Vedalken Shackles

4 drops = 3
2 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

2 drops = 4
1 x Batterskull
3 x Force of Will

Sideboard

1 x Crucible of Worlds
1 x Umezawa's Jitte
3 x Surgical Extraction
1 x Force of Will
2 x Spell Pierce
2 x Meddling Mage
2 x Disenchant
1 x Path to Exile
2 x Wrath of God

[Malakai]

I haven't stopped jamming Counterbalance. Here are some things I've learned:

The only thing you care about is the opponent's tempo.
You can afford 5 colorless sources in UW if you have 22 lands.
Planeswalkers aren't where you want to be. You're already playing a better 'walker in Counterbalance-Top.
Stoneforge Mystic is awesome.
Sword of Body and Mind is so much better than SoFF against Maverick.
RUG cannot beat you if they're on the draw.
Snapcaster is not spectacular, but he does work. 2-3 is the correct number.
1x Counterspell has been great; I'd consider going to 2.
Casting CB or SFM on turn two is often wrong.
Most of the time you don't want to protect your SFM from removal (except with CB). It's much better to just counter one of their proactive sells.


It's nice living in a world where nobody plays Goblins, Merfolk, Zoo, or Natural-Order.dec.

[Malakai]

Trinket Mage has been underperforming. The decks it helped to prey upon in the past--Vial aggro, Zoo, Survival--are all gone.

I am anxious to try the following build, although I don't have the mana-base for it:
4 Brainstorm
4 CB
4 Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
2 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Lingering Souls
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
2 other lands

On paper, this looks rather insane.

ASIDE: Against UW, the game-state where I wish that I had SoFF instead of SoBM has never happened. Most of the time I just wish it was SoFI.

[Malakai]

Learned some more things:

Nobody else reads this thread.
Stillmoon Cavalier is a card you can maindeck, and is amazing against Stoneforge decks.


My sideboard now contains cards only for the following matchups:
Maverick
Dredge
Enchantress
Hive Mind / Dream Halls

[SupREME-10]

Stillmoon Cavalier is a neat little card; but I doubt that it is worthy for maindeck with Counter-Top.

In regard to SB
Maverick
Dredge
I understand as they are popular enough.

Enchantress -- you should be beating this pre-board.
Hive Mind / Dream Halls -- I don't see this one often at all, so I would not have singled it out for Hate.

Thanks for the reader test though, and there are still people reading this thread as well as you.

[Malakai]

Enchantress -- you should be beating this pre-board.
How? Have you played against this deck? It's probably the worst matchup. Now, granted, it is way over-represented in my meta, so you could easily ignore it in a larger tournament.


Stillmoon Cavalier is a neat little card; but I doubt that it is worthy for maindeck with Counter-Top.
The issue is that even though you are favored against esperblade and UW, those games drag on. In the swiss, usually you only have time to complete game 1. As such, you basically need to pre-board. If Stillmoon Cavalier comes down before they have counters on Jitte, it becomes very difficult for them to win. It's the best 3-drop I could find against them that still has game against Maverick. I haven't tried it yet, but it seems like it's going to be really good.

[SupREME-10]

My bad that should have read.

Enchantress -- Hive Mind / Dream Halls -- you should be beating this pre-board.
I don't see this one often at all, so I would not have singled it out for Hate.

maybe I was drunk while typing.

[Malakai]

My bad that should have read.

Enchantress -- Hive Mind / Dream Halls -- you should be beating this pre-board.
I don't see this one often at all, so I would not have singled it out for Hate.

maybe I was drunk while typing.

You actually have a surprisingly small amount of ways to interact with Show+Tell.dec. Forces, Counterspells, and landing a Counterbalance on 3. Meanwhile, they can usually go off turn 3 with protection. Spell Pierces help a lot, but generally you're a dog in the matchup. This makes sense, as the deck was designed to beat up on the specific disruption run by UW and friends.

[Malakai]

Reporting back:
Stillmoon Cavalier was insane, even better than I expected. Against Esperblade, I'd much rather have shackles + stillmoon than Jace any day of the week.

[DragoFireheart]

Do you think any of the new Miracle cards will find a home in CounterTop?

[Mackan]

@miracle
On one hand I like the new miracle-walk (and perhaps the miracle-wog, but less so) in a deck with jace, brainstorm and top. On the other hand it needs some setup and that takes time (tempo), allready the weakest point in a counterbalance shell. When you have one of the best lategame allready, why durdle more than necessary?

@lists
I've been toying around and testing EVERY possible card for cbtop over the last couple of years. The "problems" right now are how to survive against maverick. First of all we need a good manabase and second of all we need some real creaturecontrol. Snapcaster+path/plow was initially very strong (it even forced merfolk out of the metagame) but people have adapted. Maverick has a lot of tools to negate the snapcaster+removal plan in mother of runes, equipments, LOTS of dorky dorks, choke and not to mention krosan grip to handle any offense with batterskull. Jace is miserable against a boardstate with 2 creatures. Lingering souls is not as good as people think. They buy some time but in the end you can't really race with 1/1:s... unless the 1/1:s are thopters...

This is my current build;

ENCHANTMENTS (4)
4 Counterbalance
INSTANTS (14)
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Force of Will
PLANESWALKERS (4)
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
ARTIFACTS (16)
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Mox Opal
LANDS (22)
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Seat of the Synod

cb curve;
0 : 26
1 : 12
2 : 10
3 : 4
4 : 4
5 : 4

bluecount for fow: 22

I played almost the same deck a year ago but instead of enlightened tutor I play thirst for knowledge now. With a critical mass of "search" you don't really need tutors. The search is hard to balance, you have a billion dead cards at a given time (2 of any card in the deck basicly) but from our testing session yesterday I only lost 1 game when drawing "bad", a 7/7 knight made short work of me when my thopter/cb hand got more of the same.

The mana. Playing seat of the synod is bad. Unfortunatly it is a must when tezzeret is the planeswalker of choice (belive me, I have played jace alot). I like him a lot more in this deck. Mox opal compensates a lot.

@cbtop. The perfect complement to the really slow wincon in thopter/sword. You need the softlock to have any chance against combo (and now it's almost a bye).

@no creatures. Blank their removal. even stoneforge is out.

@no counterspells. not a fan of counterspell/spell snare when you rely on ensnaring bridge... taxing counters like spell pierce are even worse since the deck is all about the lategame. Fow is enough to protect the key spells (bridge and tezz).

@no cute 1ofs maindeck (moat/humility beeing the best). WW is to hard. Sadly.

@no other moxen. the rest are crap.

@almost no removal (no o-ring, engineered explosives, wog). Most of the games have come down to using mana to dig for a missing piece. Once that missing piece was found you don't care about the boardstate. There's basicly only 3 cards from the tier1-2 decks you care about beeing in play. One beeing qasali pridemage, one beeing sword of fire/ice and the third beeing noble hierarch.

@sideboard
I will post this later if anyone is intrested, right now it's a mixed mess of good stuff:)

metagame analysis.

you beat discard with sensei's divining top

you beat zoo/storm/burn with cb/top

you beat stoneblade with thopters.

you beat rug by playing tight (they have no outs to a resolved ensnaring bridge)

you beat randomness with the whole deck

you beat dredge/reanimator with the sideboard (as usual).

you kinda still loose to maverick/bant, but it's doable and much better than a regular stoneblade list. I need some ideas to a real sideboard plan that trumps all of their krosan grips...

btw, tezzeret is insane. You should try him if you haven't:)

Feel free to discuss anything counterbalance-related.

[HPB_Eggo]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=130273&d=1334808088

It hoses Maverick to no end, and it is easily playable for the Miracle cost in any CT shell. I think it deserves some discussion, at the very least.

IMO, at least a SB card, and should be considered MD for lists that run no creatures or only token generators for creatures.

[Malakai]

I could see playing Terminus in the sideboard. In fact, I like it a lot, although I'd have to actually test it out.

I'm hesitant to try to adapt the new cards before seeing what happens in the metagame, however. For one, it seems like Wastelands are going to be mandatory.

[MJL]

Just thought I should rep my tournament report. I played Counterbalance to an 11th place finish at SCG Phoenix.

http://www.azmagicplayers.com/articles/balancing-to-11th-an-scg-phoenix-legacy-open-report-part-1/

http://www.azmagicplayers.com/articles/balancing-to-11th-an-scg-phoenix-legacy-open-report-part-2/

http://www.azmagicplayers.com/articles/balancing-to-11th-an-scg-phoenix-legacy-open-report-part-3/
I hope you all enjoy them.

[SupREME-10]

Congrats on your placing, and those are well written reports.

Very interesting, I think I am sticking with the U/W version; but yours was interesting for sure.

[DragoFireheart]

Cavern of Souls will kill this deck. I don't think the miracle cards can save it.

[Piceli89]

Cavern of Souls will kill this deck. I don't think the miracle cards can save it.

Cavern of Souls will be played in those decks where Counterbalance was already quite useless.

[DragoFireheart]

Cavern of Souls will be played in those decks where Counterbalance was already quite useless.

Oh I agree, but I'm suggesting that CoS is the final nail in CTs coffin.

[MJL]

I'm not even confident that card is good in any major archetype, except maybe Goblins. Maverick might want to play it, but probably not, it prohibits them from casting turn 2 pridemage or Gaddock Teeg.

[Antonius]

Terminus is OK. This is the real deal from Avacyn:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=130145&d=1334635366

I was testing it yesterday in a Landstill list then in a Landstill list with CB. This card is ridiculous. Slow blue control deck with no clock can now create a lethal army at your end step. The only way I could describe it is the same feeling I used to get when I cycled DoJ @ EOT with Mirari's Wake out.

AND it has cmc 3. lol.

I would go as far to say that the card is so powerful that it's practically a nuclear option to use against any of CB's bad matchups. CB is useless against Maverick? Well find a way to stall til you can just shit on them with angel tokens. How are they going to beat 16 flying power?

[DragoFireheart]

Terminus is OK. This is the real deal from Avacyn:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=130145&d=1334635366

I was testing it yesterday in a Landstill list then in a Landstill list with CB. This card is ridiculous. Slow blue control deck with no clock can now create a lethal army at your end step. The only way I could describe it is the same feeling I used to get when I cycled DoJ @ EOT with Mirari's Wake out.

AND it has cmc 3. lol.

I would go as far to say that the card is so powerful that it's practically a nuclear option to use against any of CB's bad matchups. CB is useless against Maverick? Well find a way to stall til you can just shit on them with angel tokens. How are they going to beat 16 flying power?

Hmmm... That is pretty good for countertop, but I'm not sure if it's enough. That card DOES solve some of the issues of this deck being too slow in terms of killing.

[keys]

It's also worth pointing out that you can still hardcast it to make a single 4/4 flyer for 2WWW, which isn't obscene if it happens to get stuck in your hand. None of the other Miracle cards come this close to being playable without the Miracle mechanic.

The card is definitely a new and improved DoJ for CounterTop. Can't wait to play it.

[SupREME-10]

It's also worth pointing out that you can still hardcast it to make a single 4/4 flyer for 2WWW, which isn't obscene if it happens to get stuck in your hand. None of the other Miracle cards come this close to being playable without the Miracle mechanic.

The card is definitely a new and improved DoJ for CounterTop. Can't wait to play it.

I agree with the top part you said, but disagree that other miracle cards have no use... Reforge the Soul will be a draw 7 Engine for Storm decks that are already making insane amounts of mana (to hardcast), draw 7 more, cast into things like Past in Flames, recycle graveyard, build more mana, draw more cards, and then hit you with a lethal Storm Card.... it might bring things like Spanish Inquisition back to the for front, or have Goblin Charbelcher going more R/b, or give TES one more option in it's b/r version. I would watch Reforge the Soul closely.

[Antonius]

I believe that the future of CBtop might look like this:

4 Delta
4 Strand
2 Flats
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

2 EE

4 Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Pierce
1 Snare
4 Swords

4 Snapcaster
2 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance

2 Dismember
3 Entreat the Angels

2 Jace

3 Force of Will

SB (in development):
1 Academy Ruins
1 Crucible
1 EE
1 Intuition
3 Extirpate
2 Hydroblast
2 Seal of Cleansing
4 ??

Props to MJL; I based my design off of his list. I don't think I met you when I was at SCG: Phoenix but congrats on your top 16 dude.

I've done a lot of testing against Maverick and the matchup is very winnable. 50% maybe better. A lot of games just take the path of tons of removal >> Angel tokens. Entreat the Angels allows you piss upon them from great height and they can't really do anything about it. On the flipside, you still lose a lot of games to thalia and the low mana draw.

[MJL]

We might have crossed paths. I was the blond dude hanging out with Team Abong and Lowell Thompson.

My new list actually looks pretty similar, although I'm not bold enough to play three entreat the angels. I also think Terminus has a place, its at least as good as the Wrath I main decked.

[Antonius]

^^ I played against Lowell both days. Storm mirrors. Both match ups were really funny. Anyway, I started with a miracle set like this:

1 Personal Tutor
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Terminus

But after a while, i started to feel as though the Terminus was unnecessary because I had so much removal between Snapcaster/Swords/Dismember. So after cutting it, cutting Personal Tutor for another Entreat seemed sensible.

I should add that I went a few other places before deciding on Esper. I tried Bant, with Bant Charm sitting in at the dismember slots and Patriot with Fire/Ice taking the place of Main Deck EE and Firespout in for the Dismembers. EE seems like the most flexible way to two-for-one maverick and remove Mongeese. That and Sideboard options is the reason why I settled on Esper in the end.

[Malakai]

I would rather cast Stoneforge Mystic against any deck than I would Entreat the Angels.

Whether it will be time to finally hang up my Counterbalances remains to be seen; we have to wait to see what the meta does.

[MJL]

I think I like Terminus better against Maverick than E.E. It's also pretty sweet against the Zombies deck that has been popping up recently.
Stoneforge Mystic has been repeatedly proven to a poor choice for Counterbalance, it takess up a ton of slots, and Squires just tend to die right now. So your either fetching Batterskull and not getting to play it, getting it Pride-Maged or Ancient Grudged, or your fetching a Sword in a deck that doesn't want to be aggressive and has relatively few creatures.
Also you just have better things to do on Turn 2 than give your opponents dead Swords something to target.
The format is hostile to SFM, why would you want to play it through hate when there are other options.

[Antonius]

I would rather cast Stoneforge Mystic against any deck than I would Entreat the Angels.

Whether it will be time to finally hang up my Counterbalances remains to be seen; we have to wait to see what the meta does.

lets see
SFM: 2WW and two turns for a 1/2 squire and a 4/4 vigilance lifelink

Angels: 2WW (potentially at their end step) for two 4/4 fliers.

You tell me what's better.

[Malakai]

lets see
SFM: 2WW and two turns for a 1/2 squire and a 4/4 vigilance lifelink

Angels: 2WW (potentially at their end step) for two 4/4 fliers.

You tell me what's better.

I already did.

---------------------

MJL's points have merit, but running a bad hybrid of DoJ and White Sun's Zenith is not the answer.

[MJL]

I consider Terminus an almost strict upgrade to Wrath of God, a card most of the successful Counterbalance decks are running. Entreat the Angels is so much more powerful than White Sun Zenith, that the charectization is sort of silly. It's faster, the tokens block Delver and Mongoose, they can't be bolted down etc. Some decks are running Lingering Souls, I'd rather have 3 4/4 fliers than 4 1/1 fliers and it only scales better from there.
I'm not sure that playing Entreat the Angels is correct, i feel like your arguing in hyperbole isn't the best way to find the answer, which is what were all looking to do right?

[Maëlig]

I believe that the future of CBtop might look like this:
list


Seems solid, I'm testing a pretty similar list at the moment :

4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
2 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland

4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Force of Will
2 Terminus

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
1 Oblivion Ring

3 Entreat the Angels
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:

1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Path to Exile
1 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Cursed Totem
2 Disenchant
1 Aura of Silence
1 Force of Will
1 Terminus


Both terminus and (especially) entreat have been very good from my (admitedly limited) testing. Droping angels on the board eot with top is just bonkers. The only downside is that it makes us even more reliant on brainstorm, top and jace. It's not great opening hands with terminus, entreat and no BS.

[TBryant23]

Maëlig I like your list, but I have what I see would be a couple "upgrades". If you're going to play wasteland, Crucible seems like it's a must include to be able to recur wastelands in order to deal with Cavern of Souls and other problematic lands. Then you could cut a Tundra for an Academy Ruins. I'd go something like -1 Tundra, -1 Snapcaster, -1 E.Tutor, -1 E.E., -1 Counterspell for +1 Academy Ruins +1 Crucible of Worlds, +3 Ponder.

[LEH]

I've been brewing up a UW Countertop shell with Entreat the Angels, Delver of Secrets, Geist of Saint Traft, Snapcaster Mage and Jace, the Mind Sculptor all as possible win cons, and I'm having a lot of fun with the build. With Cavern of Souls seeing more and more play Countertop isn't able to ride single threats to victory while keeping the board clear via Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top anymore. I believe the natural evolution for Countertop to take is to increase the threat count and remove the dependence of locking out your opponent for the entirety of the game, instead focusing more on tempo locking them out of the game (if that's the correct expression) with a win condition and the combo protecting it.

For reference my current list is:
CREATURES
4x Delver of Secrets
2x Geist of Saint Traft
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Vendilion Clique

ARTIFACTS/ENCHANTMENTS
3x Counterbalance
3x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Scroll Rack

SPELLS
4x Brainstorm
2x Counterspell
2x Enlightened Tutor
2x Entreat the Angels
4x Force of Will
2x Predict
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Terminus

PLAINSWALKERS
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

LAND
4x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Karakas
4x Tundra
6x Island
1x Plains

SIDEBOARD
1x Pithing Needle
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Vedalken Shackles
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Back to Basics
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Moat
2x Echoing Truth
2x Stifle
1x Terminus

[tempothresh]

I know many of us have moved on to u/w/r counterbalance featuring terminus and entreat. Has the old countertop shell of creatures/removal/counterbalance+top been completely outclassed by miracles?

I miss the days of playing dark confidant and spinning top with counterbalance out. Currently I play miracles and I love the deck, but what I really love is the countertop engine.

Has anyone worked on any lists not featuring miracles lately? Maybe u/w/b, u/r/b, u/g/b?

Cards id like to see in a deck like this would be Confidant, goyf, young pyromancer, and deathrite shaman. (not all in the same deck obv)

I may just be trying to hang on to old memories and may have to move on from this archtype.

[Bobmans]

I know many of us have moved on to u/w/r counterbalance featuring terminus and entreat. Has the old countertop shell of creatures/removal/counterbalance+top been completely outclassed by miracles?
I miss the days of playing dark confidant and spinning top with counterbalance out. Currently I play miracles and I love the deck, but what I really love is the countertop engine.
Has anyone worked on any lists not featuring miracles lately? Maybe u/w/b, u/r/b, u/g/b?
Cards id like to see in a deck like this would be Confidant, goyf, young pyromancer, and deathrite shaman. (not all in the same deck obv)
I may just be trying to hang on to old memories and may have to move on from this archtype.

Well i have been pondering for a couple of weeks about a list with RUG countertop list incorperating Jace, TMX. PFire/grove, Dreadnought, etc., but i am not sure if it's valiable. A BUG list would be cool to. BUG Control lists are already heading in the right direction. Heres one of my drafts:


3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
2 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Academy Ruins
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 3 Divert
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction

[btm10]

The use of CounterTop + Liliana was just being discussed in the BUG Control/Team America (Midrange/Control) (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23429-Deck-Team-America-(Midrange-Control-Thread)/page44) thread. I think it's an excellent idea, especially since Sylvan Library is so good I'm thinking about running a second copy. I think 4 Top/1 Sylvan could work very well in these shells.

[thecrav]

Has anyone worked on any lists not featuring miracles lately? Maybe u/w/b, u/r/b, u/g/b?


I played counterthopters recently, but I ended up siding out the combo for RIP/Helm instead. I doubt I'll ever leave UWx for countertop, but playing non-miracles was fun.

[tempothresh]

I tried jamming it in Esper Deathblade and BUG hoping to get some kind of positive results and unfortunately it just wasn't working. I can see it in maybe a bug control list more focused on the late game then the early game.

For now I will just focus on u/w/r with miracles. Sigh :cry:

[Thor Hammer]

I think this build hits the sweet spot for Counterbalance with the mana curve, and it offers a nice suite of spells to handle whatever my opponent throws at me. If I run up against a combo deck I can side in more control with Spell Snare and Echoing Truth, or if I get matched up against an aggro deck I can side in the PainterStone combo. Going against control is where it gets interesting, but I think this deck has enough options to still remain competitive. Also, running mono-blue allows me to effectively Wasteland my opponent's non-basics without setting myself back too much. I'll report back when I test it out against the competition, but for now here's the build...

Mainboard
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Daze
4 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
4 True-Name Nemesis
4 Vedalken Shackles
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Cryptic Command
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will

Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
8 Island

Sideboard:
4 Spell Snare
4 Echoing Truth
4 Grindstone
4 Painter’s Servant


Mana Curve:
1 = 8
2 = 12
3 = 10
4 = 6
5 = 4