[Archetype] CounterTop

[Nihil Credo]

[Deck] CounterTop
by Bardo


I. Purpose. This is a discussion and development thread for aggro-control decks built around efficient creatures (e.g. Tarmogoyf) and Counterbalance / Sensei’s Divining Top (“CounterTop” or “CT”) that can claim Gro and Threshold among its ancestors. Well-established decks that incorporate CT, such as DreadStill or It’s the Fear, or decks that have another central focus (like a CT deck that runs 4 Survival of the Fittest) should be discussed in the appropriate thread, not here.

II. History. Legacy deck designers were slow to accept what professional Extended players had long-known: Counterbalance with Sensei’s Divining Top is busted freaking good. I don’t know who knew what when, but running Counter-Top in the maindeck became slowly adopted only after Grand Prix: Columbus ( http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Events.aspx?x=mtgevent/gpcol07/welcome) (2007), where the only deck running maindeck Counter-Top in the Top 8, funny enough, was the first place Flash deck, built by Billy Moreno and played by Steve Sadin; neither of which are known for their Legacy credentials. (To give credit where it is due, combing through events leading up to GP: Columbus in the Historic Top 8 thread, the Hatfield brothers can be found running 3 Counterbalance in the sideboards of their Threshold decks pre-GP Columbus, presumably for the mirror match.)

After GP: Columbus, it would be another three months before we saw maindeck Counter-Top again, this time in Fish played by Jason Jaco in the Top 8 of the Legacy World Championship (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=welcome/conventions/gencon07-saturday#2) at GenCon (2007). After GenCon, people finally bought the ticket and took the ride with Counterbalance.

In 2008-09, we see the now-familiar Counter-Top soft lock with strange bedfellows. As in:

* Dreadstill: Counter Top + Dreadnought/Stifle + Standstill-man lands + mana disruption
* It’s the Fear: Counter Top + Intuition/Life from the Loam + recursion
* Painter: Counter Top + flashy finish (Grindstone / Painter’s Servant)

What we’re seeing here, and this is still a hallmark of modern Counter-Top decks as well: flexible design and intense hybridization. These decks are not executing their strategy along a single line of play (e.g. play some guys, burn your face). They're like several decks mashed into one 60 card deck-list.

By 2009, widespread acceptance was complete; forms continued to diversify, yielding the next evolutionary step in the Gro lineage: the Brassman and Nassif versions of Counter-Top from the finals of Grand Prix: Chicago (http://www.wizards.com/magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpchi09/welcome) (March 2009). The creature-base has all been replaced from the Gro decks of yore, but the Gro skeleton is still showing under the skin: the cantrips; free counters, efficient, double-duty beaters; anemic land count, etc.

Going forward, Counter-Top will evolve as its ancestors have always evolved: incorporating new cards and technologies; adapting to the metagame; and exploiting its nearly-perfect, flexible, blue-based core to make it to the top tables. These decks reward tight technical play, with mistakes being rather unforgiving. As such, good players will be drawn to Counter-Top and will do well with some practice.

III. Why These Decks are Good. Counterbalance is good because Legacy is fast. Since nothing rotates, all of the best cards float to the top of the Legacy card pool. Why spend three mana on Unmake when you play Swords to Plowshares for one mana? In a vacuum, there’s no good reason.

Powerful cards in Legacy are cards that create the most value for the least cost. So when we look at the typical mana curve of a competitive Legacy deck, the curve is clustered around converted mana costs of 1-3, which is why Counterbalance is more than a niche card in the Threshold mirror.

Another key to their success: a flexible, multi-purpose form that exploits powerful synergies between good cards. As I wrote about Gro in December 2004: “One of the most powerful aspects of Super Gro is the interlocking synergies that the cards have with one another. Cantrips fill your graveyard while drawing cards and setting up your turns; fetchlands also fill the graveyard [for threshold] while developing your manabase and turning Brainstorm into a combination play; Daze, Misdirection, and Force of Will offer protection while you tap out to play your threats.” [Source ( http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/8731_Legacy_Super_Grow_Part_I_Design_and_Construction.html)]

The names of the cards these days are different, but the fact that each key design piece becomes more powerful with everything around it remains the same. For instance:

* Sensei’s Divining Top: Combos with Counterbalance, fetchlands, Dark Confidant
* Brainstorm: Combos with Counterbalance, fetchlands
* Counterbalance: Combos with Top, Brainstorm, Ponder
* Tarmogoyf: Combos with the format

[b]IV. Card Choices. When you open up the hood of any Counter-Top deck, here’s what you’ll find.

Counter Top Skeleton

Draw / Card Selection
4 Brainstorm
3-4 Sensei’s Divining Top
2-4 Ponder

Counters
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
2-4 Daze and/or Spell Snare

4-8 Removal

4 Tarmogoyf
4-8 Other Duders

18-22 Land
(usually 8 Onslaught fetchlands; 6-10 A/B/U/R duals; 0-6 basic lands; 0-3 utility lands)

Building Out The Shell

I’m not going into detail here, just listing some of the commonly-played cards to flesh out the skeleton and adjust to your metagame.

Counters
Spell Snare
Daze

Removal
Swords to Plowshares
Engineered Explosives
Vedalken Shackles
Krosan Grip
Umezawa’s Jitte

Creatures
Dark Confidant
Trygon Predator
Trinket Mage
Sower of Temptation
Knight of the Reliquary
Qasali Pridemage
Lorescale Coatl

Utility
Enlightened Tutor
Academy Ruins

APPENDIX. Enough chit-chat, here are some proven lists:

Counter Top, Gabriel Nassif
Winner, Grand Prix Chicago (2009)

4 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
3 Daze

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Krosan Grip

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Trygon Predator

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island

Sideboard:
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Planar Void
1 Burrenton Forge-tender
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Engineered Plague
1 Perish
1 Darkblast
1 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Energy Flux
1 Kataki, War’s Wage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Enlightened Tutor

(This sideboard looks pretty random, but if you organize it by function: 3 anti-graveyard cards; 8 anti-creature cards; 3 anti-artifact cards; plus 1 Enlightened Tutor)

Converted Mana Cost Distribution, Nassif List

0: 20
1: 14
2: 15
3: 5
4: 2
5: 4

Counter Top, Andy Probasco
Finalist, Grand Prix Chicago (2009)

4 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare

2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Trinket Mage
3 Sower of Temptation

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
6 Island
2 Academy Ruins

Sideboard:
3 Firespout
3 Duress
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Hydroblast
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle

Converted Mana Cost Distribution, Brassman List

0: 23
1: 15
2: 8
3: 7
4: 3
5: 4

Counter Top Threshold w/ Natural Order/Progenitus, Jesse Hatfield
Grand Prix Trial: Chicago (Feb. 28, 2009)

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Daze

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Nimble Mongoose
3 Werebear
1 Progenitus

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Natural Order

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
2 City of Brass

Sideboard:
4 Krosan Grip
4 Pyroblast
4 Pyroclasm
3 Submerge

Converted Mana Cost Distribution, Hatfield List

0: 18
1: 19
2: 15
3: 0
4: 3
5: 4
10: 1

[4eak]

I'm glad to see the new categories which distinguish CounterTop and Tempo thresh. It makes sense to divide it in this way because it highlights the diverging primary roles.

I think this thread's primer could be difficult to write. The shell shouldn't be too hard, but comparing the splashes should be a sizable task. Perhaps the primer could show stats on card usage, something like a composite list for the shell and likewise for each of the splashes.





peace,
4eak

[kabal]

I think this thread's primer could be difficult to write.

Especially since there are really 4 version floating around these days.

- Probasco NLU (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23982)
- Progenitus' Threshold (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25742)
- NQGw (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25936)
- 4C Baseruption (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25804)

Its not like the days of old where every version (White Threshold) pretty much played 35+ same cards.

Cards the same in all the top 4 mentioned lists

Tarmogoyf (4)
Force of Will (4)
Counterbalance (4)
Brainstorm (4)
Ponder (2 - 4)
Sensei's Divining Top (3 - 4)

[GrAsH]

Like I said in UGW Thresh thread that had been closed, I'm optimizing my build. The list is as follows, with some changes from my original list:

UGW CounterTop
1 Plains
3 Island
2 Forest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswepth Heath
2 Polluted Delta

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Lorescare Coatl
3 Qasali Pridemage

4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Daze
1 Krosan Grip
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles

I can also add black, making it 4color CTop, because Dark Confidant is too good in this deck to ignore:

4C Baseruption
3 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Sower of Temptation

3 Counterbalance
4 Sword to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Daze
1 Krosan Grip
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles

I'm trying to put 2 to 3 Spell Snare because it counters almost everything in my metagame. It's also a strong choice against mirror. But I'm optimizing the deck. And about adding some cards to SB, I can say that Stifle is strong in my meta. Very strong.

[memnarch]

Its true the threshold aspect of thresh is becoming almost a thing of the past. Mongoose is still used but much less now days. The bear is rarely used and now with Lorescare Coatl we aren't gonna be seeing much of either of those probably. But maybe we can come up with a cooler name too.

[GrAsH]

I think Baseruption is good enough for a name, lol. :smile:

[johanessen]

Baseruption was the kind of deck of Nassif Baseruption without counter-top engine while most ran Vial. Now it's more logical to name it counter-top.

[Happy Gilmore]

That list runs only 18 blue cards, I'm sure Trygon Perdator was in there for more than its ability to answer CB.

If any lists are posted in this list, them should be those that have made T8s and not personal lists with unproven card choices.

Lets worry about adjustments once we establish the core lists.

[memnarch]

So is this thread going to split into different color combos? I can see a need for swan combo having its own thread. But then the problem is call it Ugr countertop? Some people might run white too. Seems hard to organize all the thresh madness. As you said we got natural order which you need lots of green creatures. So different needs. And then swan combo which runs burn you wouldn't normally run.

[Happy Gilmore]

I think the thread is geared toward discussing a archetype rather than a variety of decklists. I can only see it being useful to us as a way of condensing the discussions on how to combat this strategy, rather than focus on lists which the community do not agree on.

I can't see this thread going anywhere good. Its bound to end up unfocused. If the goal is to simply make a thread to discuss all the CB/Top centric decks we might as well delete a large portion of DTB, and extablished forums.

You can't discuss more than one deck in a single thread, its doesn't work. Just look at how unfocused the ATW threads are.

[kabal]

You can't discuss more than one deck in a single thread, its doesn't work.

Then instead of having on generic CB/Top thread, we will need separate ones for each of the following decks:



- Probasco NLU (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23982)
- Progenitus' Threshold (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25742)
- NQGw (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25936)
- 4C Baseruption (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25804)


Agree?

[memnarch]

NQGw and 4C Baseruption seem similar to NLU. If I'm not mistaken the Original one in extended used many colors with dark confident. Doesn't swan combo deserve its own slot too? it usually uses UGr right?

[Brushwagg]

I have PMed Nihil Credo, and I voiced the same concern on how many of the decks share some(alot) cards but play very different. But it looks like we are stuck with this format until it is deemed we need to basically go back to the other way. I did suggest having sub-threads but that didn't fly over well either.

@Kabal: Not sure what you mean on the NQGw. Really there is "Bant"/Exalted and UGw NQG/Thresh (more traditional). The second is not seeing as much play but there are still some of us out there that play it.

[memnarch]

If we could somehow get sub forums I think that would be great.
Then we could go

Countertop combo:
swan
Progenitus
dreadnought
painter?

countertop aggro/control:
Ugw
Ugr
Ugb
Ugwb

Or maybe wizards will see this and then ban counterbalance from the format making it all irrelevant. lol

[Happy Gilmore]

The only relevant information in the DTB Forum was the T8 thread, which had all the lists and gave people the ability to see the evolution of the format along with good statistical information.

That thread has not been updated in months, and for those who do not play regularly it is unlikely that the source can provide the information someone would need to prepare for an event without doing extensive research into the Tournament results forum.

The only way these thread will be worth a damn is if that thread is revitalized and we can see the lists for the past year. Without it these thread will have no focus and no direction.

I dont think there is really a way to go back to the single thread discussions, nor do I feel it was working anyway. However, without a major update to the results thread the DTB will become almost useless, a discussion of unproven lists and a source of complete confusion.

[memnarch]

Right but the organization of the threads should still be generalized though by definition. You want to be able to have those lists grow into something new and not have to make a new thread for it. That's why the colors work for the landstill threads. If one of the threads doesn't do well in the formats it can be moved to established decks. But most decks running counterbalance paired with fow/daze/spell snare will have a good chance against a variety of decks.

[Happy Gilmore]

Right but the organization of the threads should still be generalized though by definition. You want to be able to have those lists grow into something new and not have to make a new thread for it. That's why the colors work for the landstill threads. If one of the threads doesn't do well in the formats it can be moved to established decks. But most decks running counterbalance paired with fow/daze/spell snare will have a good chance against a variety of decks.


What we had before wasn't working, I am happy to see that something is being done. But I hope the changes are not over, and updates to the T8 thread are coming. Otherwise I doubt things are going to get any better.

[Enigma]

I've been playing with probasco's list for a couple of weeks since the GP and felt in love with this more controlish aspect of aggro-control. With Merfolk as a regular DTB, I felt I was needing something else to fight them. I found a list on deckcheck (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25975) and made 1 or 2 changes, here is the new thing:

// Lands
6 Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Academy Ruins

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Sower of Temptation
3 Lorescale Coatl
2 Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
3 Ponder
4 Counterbalance
2 Vedalken Shackles
3 Spell Snare
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Fire/Ice

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Jace Beleren
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Firespout
SB: 1 Pyroclasm

Fire/Ice is a good spot removal, a nice tempo card and somehow synergic with Coatl. The snake is a fast finisher and he's good at blocking non-islandwalk creatures because of brainstorm's effect. Basicly, if you have an Island open, the opponent is affraid of losing his creature to a bs' boosted snake. Against Control, Jace comes in handy, and has a double effect of making coatl the real big threat that need to be answered.

P-M

[Waya]

I think counterbalance decks is pretty vague. I'm currently playing a "threshold" deck that almost walks the line between CBT and Tempo. I guess I'll put it here as per decks main-decking counterbalance go here. I'll explain some of the more unusual choices after the list.

//Land - 17
3 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Island
2 Forest
1 Plains

//Creatures - 15
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Sea Drake
3 Trygon Predator

//Artifacts - 5
3 Sensei's Divining Top

//Instants - 18
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
3 Orim's Chant

//Enchantments - 2
2 Counterbalance

//Sideboard - 15
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Counterbalance
3 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Engineered Explosives

Edit:

Main Deck

Out - 3 Ponder
In - 3 Orim's Chant

Sideboard:
Out - 3 Qasali Pridemage (Sorry, but I think predator is enough.)
In - 2 Umezawa's Jitte, 1 Counterbalance

Creature Choice:
I chose the creatures to give me a fairly optimal curve. However, I could easily see mongoose being cut if A) Goblins start to become less common again, or B) I find that a utility creature fits here better. For now though, the goose is golden.

Sea Drake: Okay, I'll probably get flamed for this guy, but bring it on. He fills out more of the 3 mana spot for CBT. He has evasion. He only takes one color of mana to cast (and the base color for the deck at that); sorry Rhox War Monk. He hits about as hard as Goyf would if played early. He isn't graveyard dependent. Losing 2 land in a deck that thrives on 1cc cards isn't much of a draw back either.

Trygon Predator: With all the stupid chalices, EE, Dreadnoughts, and vials going around, main deck artifact hate is a must. Also helps in mirror matches.

Why no Lorescale Coatl? This creature is unproven. It is not an immediate threat when on the board, and without a good hand grows slowly. It also forces you to change the way you play your cantrips. Until I see this thing really rip through some tournaments, I'll pass.

Everything else is pretty much essential CBT, except Orim's Chant.

Orim's Chant is an undeniably good card. Since my Deck is half "tempo" threshold, I think chant serves well in delaying your opponent (you can't get much more tempo disruption than "target player cannot cast spells this turn").

Please feel free to comment and or criticize; however, please don't criticize based on your local metagame.

[memnarch]

see Waya your list would just go Ugw countertop aggro/control or bant control.

and Enigma would go to Ugr countertop aggro/control

They both look like viable lists. And both use different cards.

[kicks_422]

Waya, only 2 Counterbalance? Really? Also...


When Magic: 2010 comes out, I will be running silence, probably in place of the ponders.

Why not run Orim's Chants instead?

[Waya]

see Waya your list would just go Ugw countertop aggro/control or bant control.

and Enigma would go to Ugr countertop aggro/control

They both look like viable lists. And both use different cards.

I absolutely agree.



Waya, only 2 Counterbalance? Really? Also...

Because I said it ran the line between tempo and CBT. I like to think the deck can win on tempo (which usually happens), and CBT is just there as a sweetener or backup. I should really put another CB in the 'board, though.


Why not run Orim's Chants instead?
Because I just started playing again after a long hiatus and totally forgot about 'chant.

[Mayk0l]

I came in third yesterday in a 40 man tournament in the Netherlands. My decklist was:



TSL Gro

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lorescale Coatl
2 Sower of Temptation

4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
3 Daze

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Fire/Ice

4 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Engineered Explosives

4 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Island
2 Forest

Sideboard:
1 Volcanic Island
4 Krosan Grip
3 Submerge
3 Pyroblast
3 Pyroclasm
1 Sower of Temptation


Other than the sideboard, which I'm going to change, the deck did really, really well. EE, CB, Goyf and Top were sweet for me through the entire day, with the basics really doing their thing. I'm never going to play less than 4 of CB and Top ever (unless they get banned).
At first I added red simply for EE@3, but I decided that F/I was worth running and I added a second Volcanic in the maindeck. I made it a third one in the SB because I feared the ever present Sinkhole/Vindicate/Wasteland decks that run rampant here.

My Matchups were:
R1: Domain Zoo: Win 2-0 (This guy went on to win the tournament too)
R2: My teammate with Aggro Loam: Win 2-1
R3: Suicide Black: Lost 0-2
R4: Canadian Tempo Thresh: Won 2-1
R5: Domain Zoo: Won 2-0
R6: BGW Rock/Eva goodies: Lost 2-1 (I got a gameloss at 1-1 when I was going to swing for the win but forgot the trigger of the Dark Confidant I Sowered), So basically, this was 2-1 for me :P
Top8
1/4F: UW Control: Won 2-0
1/2F: Domain Zoo (same guy as R1): Lost 2-0. The deck gave up on me :P

I wrote a full report but it's in Dutch. If anyone has any specific questions, I'm willing to answer them :)

EDIT: I am however, going to playtest Vendilion Clique

[kabal]

I wrote a full report but it's in Dutch. If anyone has any specific questions, I'm willing to answer them :)

Do you mind giving more specifics around Lorescale Coatl and how it performed in your matches?

[Jaynel]

I wrote a full report but it's in Dutch. If anyone has any specific questions, I'm willing to answer them :)

How good is Sower as opposed to Shackles or something like Control Magic? Do you find it hard to protect?

[The_Red_Panda]

I wrote a full report but it's in Dutch. If anyone has any specific questions, I'm willing to answer them :)

How was Fire//Ice? Did fire ever net you card advantage? How relevant was Ice to winning damage races?

[Mordel]

I think counterbalance decks is pretty vague. I'm currently playing a "threshold" deck that almost walks the line between CBT and Tempo.

The thing is though that as time goes on, chances are optimal builds will begin to flesh themselves out and polarize between specific approaches and the decks will have their own threads, but right now as it stands, there seems to be a lot of cross-pollination between decks that go for the CB+SDT cantrips and goyf route. That's what I think anyway. I think the idea has been touched upon in this thread a bit already, so if I am beating a dead horse, I won't be butthurt if this reply gets the axe.

[Mayk0l]

Do you mind giving more specifics around Lorescale Coatl and how it performed in your matches?

Coatl, naturally, plays differently than the Mongoose it replaces. Whilst Goose was often a turn 1 drop after which you knew it was relatively safe and you just waited until it became a 3/3, Coatl comes down later. I found that this meant that my deck played like a Control deck in the first couple of turns (having mana open for Spell Snare simply rocks) and I dropped Coatl more than once to seal the game. Given, it is no Tarmogoyf, in my opinion it is more threatening than Goose. I found that people were desperate to get rid of Coatl as soon as it came down, and I did not lose a single game wherein I had a Coatl that lived beyond the first turn. Growing it is absolutely no problem whatsoever, and I don't feel like it really needs a deck built around or that it needs Sylvan Library. I found that even spending my Brainstorms and Ponders when I needed them in the first turns didn't matter, I always found a way to grow Coatl. Although I have to admit, I did change my list to make it more effective; I didn't play F/I before.
It often grew beyond anything I'd ever imagined it would, it was larger than the Countryside Crushers and Terravores it faced, and in more than one game it made Goyf look like a whimp; what good is their 7/8 Goyf when I have a 10/10 and 8/8 Coatl? I thought so.
I love how you can drop Coatl and Ponder into Brainstorm, that won me one game right there.

I love Coatl and will definitely keep playing it in this deck as a four-off



How good is Sower as opposed to Shackles or something like Control Magic? Do you find it hard to protect?
I don't play Control Magic or Threads or Shackles because it suffers from the same hate people will side in against Counterbalance; Grip. I do realise that giving them more targets means they'll have to spent their Grips wisely, and a Grip on Control Magic might mean my Counterbalance lives; but the thing they want gone the most will be gone. That's a bad thing. Other than that I don't play Shackles because I run only 18 lands, 2 of them being basic forests. I think Shackles belongs in a dedicated control deck. I used to run them in the past though, but never really liked not being able to Shackle a 6/7 Goyf. In the whole tournament, I've had numerous 6/7 Goyfs (or bigger) sitting across the table from me, but there was only one game wherein I had 6 Islands. With that in mind, I think I made the right choice.

That said, Sower was damned hard to protect, yes. Zoo players didn't mind wasting three burns on it. I've yet to give Sower a fair chance though, as I usually only saw it in the games I was losing anyway, as a topdeck with an empty hand. I desperately searched for it a couple of times against a Tombstalker, and found it through cantrips, but couldn't protect it because I was losing and my hand was empty. However, Shackles and Counter Magic would have died to the Vindicate as well :)

Also, as a small sidenote, Goyf often stares down another Goyf, Coatl needs at least a little time to grow. Sower means you have a threat with Evasion; Sowering something gives you an additional threat. I like the idea of having an extra flyer.


How was Fire//Ice? Did fire ever net you card advantage? How relevant was Ice to winning damage races?

F/I dit net me cardadvantage on a rare occasion; usually it was a Confidant and another card that got burned (Lavamancer). I have to say, I really like it. I was having doubts about including it but I'm glad I did, it's really a good feeling knowing you have a backup-out against Confidant other than EE. Confidant is a card I despise with all my heart when it's staring at me from across the table, because I always lose when I can't get rid of it. I even Submerged a Confidant or two just to deny them the cardadvantage for at least a turn (and won games because of it). Another time when Fire was really useful for me was when the UW control player played a Jace, took a counter from it to draw a card, and I burnt the rest of the counters off; pretty expensive cantrip that made it :)
The Ice part of F/I didn't really have a chance to shine. It did however, fulfill one role to the fullest; stalling Tombstalker. I topdecked three F/I's in a row, this gave me time to find a Sower to Sower the Tombstalker; however, it got Vindicated >_<

I like F/I and I'm definitely leaving it in for the time being. Even if just to battle Confidant, I'm happy to have it.

[eq.firemind]

I must say I like Fire//Ice very much.
It can kill Magus of the Moon even after turn 1 Chalice, turn 2 Magus.
It can deal the last 1 damage to their Goyf/Stalker. Or just Ice and race (hey, +1/+1 on snake).
It can give time against Dreadnought (very good option if you resolved Coatl - 'nought forced to chumpblock is priceless).
It kills Confidant/Birds/Decree-Elspeth tokens/Lackey(if you on play)/....

[Clark Kant]

Considering Countertop incorporates such a massive portion of the metagame and has so many different variations, wouldn't it make sense to have dedicated threads to UGw Countertop, Dark Countertop (any countertop variant splashing black), UGr Countertop etc.

For example, I honestly think we need to have more of a discussion on Noble Hierarch. Many of the players who run the card like it a lot. But such a discussion would get muddle in such a generic thread as Countertop. It's categorized strictly as a mana slot in UGW Countertop lists that serves useful utilty functions on the side, but primarily, it serves the role of mana, and mana counts after including it should never ever ever exceed 21 slots. But once again, this discussion gets muddled with all the UGr and UGb lists that also go in this same spot.

[sauce]

lets discuss noble hierarch.
i will preface the discussion w/ the fact that i've not run him in any of my thresh lists.

cons:
1) weak to downright bad mid-late game topdeck because if you don't have a threat out he is just a 0/1 and 1/2 beater. if you have a threat out then you're probably doing good already w/o him.
2) he is green so is not pitchable to fow
3) on his own he has no evasion, shroud, etc. neither does bob or pridemage though.
4) can't compete for qasali pridemage/trygon/bob spot in the deck as a utility creature imho. even though his purpose is different, the EV is much higher out of the aforementioned.
5) potentially makes you keep worse hands as he represents UGW mana, but if sworded can set you back a bunch if you have no top/ponder to search/shuffle for mana and only had an underground sea (for example) in the opening hand...

pros:
1) keeps you in it even after a resolved bloodmoon/wasteland lock/armageddon/magus/choke/etc.
2) make an existing threat larger than opponents threat, if both people have a goyf and you have the hierarch, then it helps break the stalemate.
3) helps be daze proof turn 2 if cast on turn 1, thus enabling a safer cb drop on t2. i think this is the biggest pro for him in my mind.
4) can be used for natural order (meh)

its hard to decide which list can fit this guy, i would imagine ones that choose to run RWM (color intensive).
potentially in a metagame full of wasteland/stifle/dragon stompy, he is a good addition though he is a target for fire/ice.

[Clark Kant]

I'm not saying Hierarch makes sense in every UGw build. Hierarch only makes sense in builds that play a high 3cc spell/threat count. The accleration and additional mana they provide is invaluable in such lists.


lets discuss noble hierarch.
i will preface the discussion w/ the fact that i've not run him in any of my thresh lists.

cons:
1) weak to downright bad mid-late game topdeck because if you don't have a threat out he is just a 0/1 and 1/2 beater. if you have a threat out then you're probably doing good already w/o him.
2) he is green so is not pitchable to fow
3) on his own he has no evasion, shroud, etc. neither does bob or pridemage though.
4) can't compete for qasali pridemage/trygon/bob spot in the deck as a utility creature imho. even though his purpose is different, the EV is much higher out of the aforementioned.


All those weakness apply to the lands that you should be playing (assuming that you're playing lots of 3cc spells which is the main reason to consider hierarch) in his place as well. Lands can't be pitched to FoW either and lands suck as mid-late game topdecks once you have enough mana out. Lands are shuffled away in the midgame same as Hierarch's are. Atleast Hierarch's exalted and 1cc for counterbalance comes in handy many times.

With the higher number of 3cc spells most decks now play, it seems like many players are heavily skimping on land slots. Oddly enough, those same players when they "try" Hierarch out go in the complete other direction by not cutting any lands for it and then wonder why they're getting mana flooded.

There's still way too many builds out there playing 3cc spells with only 17 lands and 0 Hierarchs. And there's still too many builds out there playing 18 lands and 4 hierarchs. I have tried both configurations and am convinced that both configurations are absolutely mistakes. The former is way too mana light and the latter is way too mana heavy.

If you're not playing Hierarch, I'm adamant that playing 17 lands alongside multiple 3cc spells (Lorescale, RMW, O. Ring, EE etc) is a mistake. I would play 19 lands in decks heavy in 3cc cards.

I'm also convinced that playing 18 lands along side Noble Hierarch is a mistake. 17 is the absolute maximum. I actually only play 16 lands and am fine with that number though I can understand wanting to play 17 lands.

8-9 fetches, 3-4 trop, 2 tundra, 1 forest, 1 island, 4 hierarch in a build with lorescale works perfectly for me. In such a build, green becomes a critically important color, almost as neccesary as blue, and having acess to a white producing land is no longer as important. It works precisely because Noble Hierarch makes the deck far less dependent on basic lands and lands in general. With 4 Hierarch, you are far more likely to get access to all your needed colors more easily.

And seeing as how I had to go up to 19 lands prior to playing hierarch because of all the 3cc cards I was playing (lorescale, RWM etc), Noble Hierarch indeed is taking up 3 land slots for me, and only one business spell slot. And the accleration, utility and resiliency it's giving me is well worth that small sacrifice.

[Ikurei,TheGodsSlayer]

I'm playing Countertop UGW with goyf, Coatl, Sower, Daze + Snare and Bant Charm*, I and I don't think the Hierarch fitS in this deck: We need a good late-game rather than acceleration.

It seems to be an awful topdeck, and I don't need to play my threats earlier to reach the late game, where the deck is usually More powerful.


* I'm surprised to see anyone suggest the charm. Any way I have to suggest you to test it. It's like a creature removal that avoids recursion (my meta is full of Rock decks), instant, cc3 for the balance, blue for Fow. . . It has just replaced the Pridemage in my list, I have lost the enchantment removal (uSeful against Pernicious and sometimes balance), the exalted ability and a decent creature abut I really love to play with 7/8 creature removal. Have anyone tested it?

[Clark Kant]

I'm playing Countertop UGW with goyf, Coatl, Sower, Daze + Snare and Bant Charm*, I and I don't think the Hierarch fitS in this deck: We need a good late-game rather than acceleration. It seems to be an awful topdeck, and I don't need to play my threats earlier to reach the late game, where the deck is usually More powerful.

Did you read my post. My point was that Hierarch is taking up the slots that otherwise would/should go to lands. Adding Hierarch allowed me to go from 19 lands to 16, and function more consistently if anything.

How is land any better a topdeck lategame than Hierarch? It's not. If you can, you would shuffle away land just the same as you would shuffle away Hierarch. Atleast the Exalted that Hierarch offers is useful.

And like you sai,d the deck is usually more powerful in the lategame. That's precisely why accleration helps, because it brings you over to the lategame earlier. This deck isn't a monster early game. Honestly, against decks like Zoo, Eva Green and Team America, it has a lot of trouble in early game because it jsut can't keep up. Hierarch helps here, esp given that this deck doens't have any great turn one plays anyways. Just as you lose tempo when your land gets Sinkholed or Wasted, you gain tempo when you cast Hierarch. It generates on average 10-12 extra mana most games over the course of a game, and it does it all while pumping your threats. How is that a bad thing?

I can see where you're coming from with Bant Charm. I hate hate hate hate hate that your opponent can simply blow up Oblvion Ring to get back their card.

For that same reason, I was a huge fan of the Bant Charm back when it was first printed, and ran it over Oblivion Ring. Bant Charm made sense back then because Dreadnought was the hot new thing at that time. But then, countertop took off and this past year, it's showing up everywhere. Bant Charm does nothing against countertop. It can't blow up CB and they can just return Top to the top of their library if you try to blow it up. Thats assuming it even resolves once they get countertop online.

Now, I see no benefit in playing Bant Charm over Pridemage. If you really need extra creature removal, I'm curious if you guys think Path of Exile in the sideboard has any potential at all.

[memnarch]

Coatl, naturally, plays differently than the Mongoose it replaces. Whilst Goose was often a turn 1 drop after which you knew it was relatively safe and you just waited until it became a 3/3, Coatl comes down later. I found that this meant that my deck played like a Control deck in the first couple of turns (having mana open for Spell Snare simply rocks) and I dropped Coatl more than once to seal the game. Given, it is no Tarmogoyf, in my opinion it is more threatening than Goose. I found that people were desperate to get rid of Coatl as soon as it came down, and I did not lose a single game wherein I had a Coatl that lived beyond the first turn. Growing it is absolutely no problem whatsoever, and I don't feel like it really needs a deck built around or that it needs Sylvan Library. I found that even spending my Brainstorms and Ponders when I needed them in the first turns didn't matter, I always found a way to grow Coatl. Although I have to admit, I did change my list to make it more effective; I didn't play F/I before.
It often grew beyond anything I'd ever imagined it would, it was larger than the Countryside Crushers and Terravores it faced, and in more than one game it made Goyf look like a whimp; what good is their 7/8 Goyf when I have a 10/10 and 8/8 Coatl? I thought so.
I love how you can drop Coatl and Ponder into Brainstorm, that won me one game right there.

I love Coatl and will definitely keep playing it in this deck as a four-off
.

I really like your articulation. I agree completely on this. playing with 3CC creatures is not a bad thing. It gives me time to set up countertop and daze fow etc. without fear. Its a more controlling deck at first, which I like. You can really focus now on controlling the early game. Now with the 1cc slot movement I wonder if stifle/spell snare can fill a role here now that it IS shifting to more control early game.

edit - this new format is strange I have less reference to specific deck types in this thread. Can we please split it before it just gets insane.

[johanessen]

Did you read my post. My point was that Hierarch is taking up the slots that otherwise would/should go to lands. Adding Hierarch allowed me to go from 19 lands to 16, and function more consistently if anything.

How is land any better a topdeck lategame than Hierarch? It's not. If you can, you would shuffle away land just the same as you would shuffle away Hierarch. Atleast the Exalted that Hierarch offers is useful.

And like you sai,d the deck is usually more powerful in the lategame. That's precisely why accleration helps, because it brings you over to the lategame earlier. This deck isn't a monster early game. Honestly, against decks like Zoo, Eva Green and Team America, it has a lot of trouble in early game because it jsut can't keep up. Hierarch helps here, esp given that this deck doens't have any great turn one plays anyways. Just as you lose tempo when your land gets Sinkholed or Wasted, you gain tempo when you cast Hierarch. It generates on average 10-12 extra mana most games over the course of a game, and it does it all while pumping your threats. How is that a bad thing?

I can see where you're coming from with Bant Charm. I hate hate hate hate hate that your opponent can simply blow up Oblvion Ring to get back their card.

For that same reason, I was a huge fan of the Bant Charm back when it was first printed, and ran it over Oblivion Ring. Bant Charm made sense back then because Dreadnought was the hot new thing at that time. But then, countertop took off and this past year, it's showing up everywhere. Bant Charm does nothing against countertop. It can't blow up CB and they can just return Top to the top of their library if you try to blow it up. Thats assuming it even resolves once they get countertop online.

Now, I see no benefit in playing Bant Charm over Pridemage. If you really need extra creature removal, I'm curious if you guys think Path of Exile in the sideboard has any potential at all.



I totally disagree you can run 16 lands and 4 noble hierarch instead of running 19 lands. That is totally false. Maybe during your tests you thought that configuration was ok, but i can affirm that's not true. To play Hierarch you need lands, with 16 lands the probability you have to draw a single land is too low compared against the 19 land deck. If you don't have hierarch in hand a wasteland totally crushes you. That's my thought

[eq.firemind]

Hey, guys, why 4 Hierarch?? Is it the magical number or I miss something?
17 lands + 3 Hierarch feels very good for me right now.
Basically I count Hierarch as 1/2 of a land, so my list runs 18.5 "lands".
Inclusion of Hierarch has 2 reasons: she helps goyfstalls and she helps fight Moon (outside Dragon Stompy, a lot of Sligh/Zoo and Loam players run Magus in SB in my metagame).

[aTn]

I don't want to derail the discussion, but I'd like to know your thoughts on improving the Merflolk (or fast aggro) match-up for NLU-Probasco.

My proposed approach was to include spot removal. After playing with Enigma's suggested list, I'd say Fire-Ice is a good contender for those slots.

Is Trinket really needed these days (as opposed to during the GP: Chicago) ?

Are 2 x Krosan Grip necessary in the maindeck these days ?

Aside

I think lumping all decks in this thread is a good idea in principle, but will turn things into a mess with a ton of parallel discussions going on (i.e. people following only one discussion will need to scroll and weed out a lot).

[Clark Kant]

To play Hierarch you need lands, with 16 lands the probability you have to draw a single land is too low compared against the 19 land deck.

That's not true though.16 lands is more than enough to ensure that you get a land in your opening hand to cast the hierarch.

You only need one land to cast the hierarch. Once you have a land, hierarch counts as a second land, not half a land, a full land, it doesn't generate half a mana afterall, it generates a full mana.

If you don't believe my experience, consider this... Merfolk, F. Stompy, 9 land stompy, tons of decks play only 13 colored lands even though they absolutley need to have one of those 13 colored lands first to be able to keep.

So basically, you're playing 20 lands, which combined with you cantrips ensures that you always have sufficent mana.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

I don't want to derail the discussion, but I'd like to know your thoughts on improving the Merflolk (or fast aggro) match-up for NLU-Probasco.

My proposed approach was to include spot removal. After playing with Enigma's suggested list, I'd say Fire-Ice is a good contender for those slots.

Is Trinket really needed these days (as opposed to during the GP: Chicago) ?

Are 2 x Krosan Grip necessary in the maindeck these days ?

Aside

I think lumping all decks in this thread is a good idea in principle, but will turn things into a mess with a ton of parallel discussions going on (i.e. people following only one discussion will need to scroll and weed out a lot).

I was wondering the same. I played a small local tourney last weekend. As an experiment thought i'd jankyfy the deck with Vendilion Clique + Umezawa's Jitte instead of Trinket Mage + 1/0 CC artifacts, which worked well in an aggro meta. While i never actually missed Trinket Mage (or, for that matter, wished that the Clique/Jittes were something else) i do realise that just one local tourney worth of testing is not good enough to validate anything... Which takes me to the following point: so why the hell am i suggesting questionable card choices? Food for thought perhaps.

I'll carry on then... I also ran 1 Firespout + 1 Krosan Grip rather than 2 Grips main and just hope to draw the one i wanted when i needed it (and keeping two of each in the sideboard). Although the 1/1 Firespout/Grip did actually work, there was clearly some good luck involved.

Fire/Ice does look good and it is in my deck now after having seen Enigma's list but i haven't had the chance to test yet. I got demolished by Counterslivers last weekend and i did wish i had some spot removal in the deck.

[Gekoratel]

I've just begun testing Probasco's list -2 Krosan Grip +2 Firespout but don't have enough games under my belt to make any solid conclusions, I am going to meet up with a friend today to get more testing in.

I was also wondering about the strength of Trinket Mage right now and if Coatl deserves the slot over him. Also Pithing Needle doesn't seem that exciting except naming Vial so then your looking at running just Top/EE, which are the main targets in general but still not much of a toolbox. Cutting T. Mage does make your sideboard Crypt/Relic lose some value but may be worth the overall power gain of Coatl. One thing I don't like about Coatl is that he dies to REB effects post-board unlike Goyf.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

I was also wondering about the strength of Trinket Mage right now and if Coatl deserves the slot over him. Also Pithing Needle doesn't seem that exciting except naming Vial so then your looking at running just Top/EE, which are the main targets in general but still not much of a toolbox. Cutting T. Mage does make your sideboard Crypt/Relic lose some value but may be worth the overall power gain of Coatl. One thing I don't like about Coatl is that he dies to REB effects post-board unlike Goyf.

Tutoring for a piece of the lock that wins you games is good.
Needle, while not always a house, can be randomly spectacular and against Gobs, shutting down vial is the difference between a win and a loss.
And IMO Coatl is kinda lackluster. Ive tested with it in a bunch of deck and most of the time by the time hes big enough to eat goyfs and such, all he eats is removal.

[johanessen]

Okay so I decided to give a try to snakes... this is the proposed list.


4 Tarmogoyf
3 Lorescale Coatl
3 Qasali Pridemage

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare
3 Daze
2 Ponder

2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vedalken Shackles
(Flexible Slots)

4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains


I'm thinking to change Shackles for Sower because of basic forest and plains, but i'm not a fan of. Also I'm not sure about Jittes, sometimes I notice I don't control any creature to equip Jitte so maybe I'm replacing em for Rhox War Monks. These are the flexible slots in my opinion of the deck. Other slots are fix for me.

[sauce]

for those having trouble beating merfolk, look up this card and put it in your sb.
Llawan, Cephalid Empress

also, i would just run 4 fire/ice main if my metagame was merfolk heavy. that card demolishes their whole deck.

[gamegeek2]

I'm posting this list in the CounterTop thread as well as the MegaMan thread.

CounterTop/Painter by gamegeek2

4 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Academy Ruins

4 Trinket Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Painter's Servant
2 Sower of Temptation

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
3 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Grindstone
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives

--- Sideboard ---
3 Firespout
3 Trygon Predator
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle

I'm considering cutting a Foothills for another blue fetch, but I'm not going below 3 Foothills, I want to be able to easily fetch the basics.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

I'm considering cutting a Foothills for another blue fetch, but I'm not going below 3 Foothills, I want to be able to easily fetch the basics.

I guess if you really want to run both basic Mountain and Forest then you should just keep the 4 Foothills since they can also get you blue mana anyway. I'm running an equivalent manabase in my UGw build and i haven't had any problems with it.

[sauce]

I'm posting this list in the CounterTop thread as well as the MegaMan thread.

CounterTop/Painter by gamegeek2

4 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Academy Ruins

4 Trinket Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Painter's Servant
2 Sower of Temptation

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
3 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Grindstone
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives

--- Sideboard ---
3 Firespout
3 Trygon Predator
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle

I'm considering cutting a Foothills for another blue fetch, but I'm not going below 3 Foothills, I want to be able to easily fetch the basics.

would a split of 2/2 or 3/1 between trinket mage/fabricate make sense here since it would get the painter's servant as well?

[gamegeek2]

Fabricate is bad. Trinket Mage is an actual 2-for-1, the body is often important. I see this suggestion crop up many times. The deck doesn't actually need Painter's Servant to win, it's capable of just beating with Goyfs, etc.

[The_Red_Panda]

This might be a bit off-topic, but I'm just wondering what you guys can do to a reanimated Empyrial Archangel. I know that's a very rare case, but if angel hits the board on say, turn two or three, or just anytime before counterbalance touches down, do you guys have any answers for her? I feel like most U/g/w thresh lists don't have an answer, and I'm just wondering if my suspicions are horribly wrong, or if you guys have something that I don't know about.

[Jaiminho]

This might be a bit off-topic, but I'm just wondering what you guys can do to a reanimated Empyrial Archangel. I know that's a very rare case, but if angel hits the board on say, turn two or three, or just anytime before counterbalance touches down, do you guys have any answers for her? I feel like most U/g/w thresh lists don't have an answer, and I'm just wondering if my suspicions are horribly wrong, or if you guys have something that I don't know about.

Attack with creatures that have total power greater than or equal to 8.

[The_Red_Panda]

I'm assuming you mean two tarmogoyfs then? It seems a bit infeasible for goyf and pridemage to sum to eight when goyf needs to hit six for this to happen.

Edit: I mean, you could argue for a Mongoose and a goyf at five, but then you still need goyf at five, and now you need threshold, which the newer U/g/x countertop lists get more slowly.

[memnarch]

Llawan, Cephalid Empress

Wow nice SB card. Never thought of that but teamed up my SB shushers it would be good against mono blue control's morphing's too.

[caldaean]

edit - this new format is strange I have less reference to specific deck types in this thread. Can we please split it before it just gets insane.

I totally agree with this. Was started following this thread as the UGW Threshold thread was closed. Now I get to read about NLU, Merfolk, Painter Servant decks etc. I find it amazingly hard to get any valuable info at all since the merge, since I find that I have to scroll past 5-15 posts about decks non relevant to my interest before finding anything of interest (if finding anything at all).

Regarding Hierarchs: I've tried them in both NLU and UGW Thresh, and while I really liked them, they just wasn't worth it. If I had one on my starting hand it was awesome, if I didn't I tended not to want to see them because they changed nothing. Past turn 4-5 you need threats, not more/stable mana. For the exalted boost, Qasali Pridemage does the same job while being a better creature for your rare free slots.

[Mayk0l]

This might be a bit off-topic, but I'm just wondering what you guys can do to a reanimated Empyrial Archangel.

Swing once with Coatl. Coatl usually gets bigger than Angel quite fast.

[Mordel]

Llawan, Cephalid Empress

Wow nice SB card...it would be good against mono blue control's morphing's too.

Bad plan. If you are playing against competent MUC players, a morphling getting played means that you have completely failed the game. Besides that, they have shackles, Call of the Skybreaker and in some cases factories. If your match against them is poor or something, target the actual cause of why it sucks, not how they finish you off as a result of you having a shitty match against them.


Swing once with Coatl. Coatl usually gets bigger than Angel quite fast.

Shwah? Most people seem to dislike playing hierarchs, so that begs the question of what the fuck are you guys doing to get these big coatls so quickly in a deck that runs about eight cantrips, four tops and seventeen land on average? Are you people sacrificing the consistency that makes the archetype awesome in the form of saving brainstorms to grow coatls or what? Are you lucksacking your three first land drops without needing to expend draw or use dazes? I'm baffled.

I have tested coatl more and they strike me as pieces of shit still. They Basically force me to either build the deck around them(the cold eyed selkie NQG decks) or play my draw spells far more conservatively because I need wait until the third or fourth turn to land my coatl. Seems like bullshit to me. If I need a bigger late game drop, I think I'll stick with enforcers and save myself a free slot with them too because two enforcers is the perfect number, whereas coatls basically require three slots.

[Tacosnape]

Shwah? Most people seem to dislike playing hierarchs, so that begs the question of what the fuck are you guys doing to get these big coatls so quickly in a deck that runs about eight cantrips, four tops and seventeen land on average? Are you people sacrificing the consistency that makes the archetype awesome in the form of saving brainstorms to grow coatls or what? Are you lucksacking your three first land drops without needing to expend draw or use dazes? I'm baffled.

I have tested coatl more and they strike me as pieces of shit still. They Basically force me to either build the deck around them(the cold eyed selkie NQG decks) or play my draw spells far more conservatively because I need wait until the third or fourth turn to land my coatl. Seems like bullshit to me. If I need a bigger late game drop, I think I'll stick with enforcers and save myself a free slot with them too because two enforcers is the perfect number, whereas coatls basically require three slots.

First off, nobody's suggesting slow-playing your draw. I suggested Predict as a means to help further utilize Coatl, which isn't a huge reach given that Predict has found a home in this deck many times in the past.

Secondly, 17 land is too low. I've been running 19-20. The luxury of this is not having to rely on Brainstorm, Ponder, and Top to hit land drops (Instead I can sometimes dig for threats/answers with them). Also, because of four Tops being in my deck, I very often have something to sink excess mana into.

Third, there's no logical justification of having to run three Coatls to run him at all. It's worth noting, though, that excess Coatls pitch to Force, where Mystic Enforcer doesn't. And on Daze-heavy hands where you've got one Tarmogoyf possibly going the distance, this makes a huge difference.

Third, when you hit a Coatl, he's going to go nuts if one of the following circumstances is true.

1. You have a Brainstorm in your hand. This is feasible. It's possible to hit more cantrips than you can play out in your first few drops, or to have spent turns one and two on other spells (Top/Counterbalance, Ponder/Tarmogoyf, Swords/Pridemage, etc)

2. You have a Top on the table. One top alone gives you the option to raise your Coatl by 2 per turn. Two tops give Coatl ":1:: Put a +1/+1 counter on Lorescale Coatl." Top will also help you find Brainstorm, Ponder, and Top.

3. You have time and defense. A Coatl on a light/empty board with a couple defensive cards will put an opponent under pressure. Given four turns, Coatl deals 18 damage without you drawing a single card. A single Ponder in the first three of those turns makes him lethal.

[Mordel]

I understand what you are getting at and agree now with the potential that the card has, but I really do not see running under three as being a very good plan because the card thrives on getting out relatively early and it showing up consistently with minimal help from draw seems like the best plan for allowing it to reach maximum effectiveness.

With that said, you've piqued my curiosity in regards to what kind of list you're using right now. If you don't want to post it on the thread, feel free to shoot me a pm. I haven't played with predict in a long time and can't even think of what I would take out for them anymore.

[Mayk0l]

I know what you're thinking, and I don't know how I'm doing it, but Coatl becomes a monster very quickly if my opponent doesn't remove it in the first turn. You don't need to slow play Brainstorms or Ponders. In a deck that runs 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Top, 3 F/I (like my list), I don't mind playing first turn Ponder, second turn Brainstorm. Because, when Coatl comes down, there's a big chance I'll have a Top that'll string me into more cantrips. And even without it, it's bound to me 4/4-5/5 by the second turn at the least.

I've had succes with it in Tournaments, it's a hell of a lot better than Goose at winning games, even without Shroud. I've given my reasons on page 2.

I love it
I love swinging into a 8/8 Terravore with a 5/5 Coatl and a Top on table because my opponent fears Brainstorm.
I love how my opponent had two big Goyfs, but I had three bigger Coatls.

Love it!

Anyway, if you don't like it after serious playtesting, that's up to you. Right now I'm inclined to giving it the "benefit of the doubt" if there is any

[Tacosnape]

I understand what you are getting at and agree now with the potential that the card has, but I really do not see running under three as being a very good plan because the card thrives on getting out relatively early and it showing up consistently with minimal help from draw seems like the best plan for allowing it to reach maximum effectiveness.

With that said, you've piqued my curiosity in regards to what kind of list you're using right now. If you don't want to post it on the thread, feel free to shoot me a pm. I haven't played with predict in a long time and can't even think of what I would take out for them anymore.

The list I'm running at current is as follows (Though note despite my earlier comments about Predict, I'm thinking strongly of cutting them.) Sideboard's not listed as it's constantly a work in progress.

4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lorescale Coatl
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Trygon Predator*

4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
3 Daze

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Predict

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile*

*I got where I liked the one Trygon Predator over the third Qasali. Having one of each in hand was a nicer scenario than two Pridemages at times. I could Brainstorm away the one I needed less, or pitch Trygon to Force, or whatever the case may be. Plus, strangely, I like them better together than two of either one. Double exalted is nice, but Exalted + Flying + Removal = nice. That said, I pick the 2/1 configuration in favor of Qasali given that on the play, Qasali can beat Standstill or Counterbalance to the board.

**Stp #5. I didn't hit anything else I liked in this slot more. Without Predict I'd run either two more of these, or one more and a second Trygon.

The draw is nice. The two Predicts just help push Coatl a little more, and help clear excess land off the top. They're incredibly accurate with 12 deck stackers.

My personal favorite play was in early testing when I dropped a turn three Coatl with a Top on the board. End of Opponent's turn, drew off top (3/3), untapped, drew the top (4/4), played the top, drew with the top (5/5), played Predict naming top (7/7), drew into Tundra/Brainstorm, played the land, Brainstormed (10/10) into a Force, and swung for ten.

What's worth noting is that with a Top in play and without any of the other crazy elements, you can do the first part of that story incredibly reliably, and at least have him 5/5 by first swing.

[4eak]

@ Tacosnape

Any reason you aren't playing Spell Snare? I've found the card a pretty awesome 3x. It goes well with a heavier control version of CounterTop that wants to maximize Coatl.

If you haven't tried it already, considering cutting PtE and Predicts for SSnare. Our decks are nearly identical (besides these 3 slots, only trygon is different), so I thought you might find it worth trying in your deck as well.





peace,
4eak

[Tacosnape]

@ Tacosnape

Any reason you aren't playing Spell Snare? I've found the card a pretty awesome 3x. It goes well with a heavier control version of CounterTop that wants to maximize Coatl.

If you haven't tried it already, considering cutting PtE and Predicts for SSnare. Our decks are nearly identical (besides these 3 slots, only trygon is different), so I thought you might find it worth trying in your deck as well.


It's crossed my mind. I'm not a huge fan of any sort of disruption card in this sort of deck that requires me to keep a land untapped in order to best utilize, however. One of the best advantages of Force, Daze, and Counterbalance is that every single one of them can be disrupting my opponent after I tapped out to play Goyf, Coatl, or whatever. (Granted, Counterbalance does a better job if I have 1-2 mana open for Top, but still.)

That said, with Coatl, I am starting to inadvertently lean towards a more controlling build. So Snare's a possibility. I might give it a shot.

[johanessen]

I tried Predicts but I didn't like em.
About trygon, it depends on games it's better one or other, but i feel qasali's are good in a 3x or 4x. How about an split of 3xQasali and 1xTrygon? Or seems overkill?

About Snares Daze i run 3 and 3. I'm not sure about Jitte/Rhox, I think Jitte is more flexible than Rhox but a bit Slower.

[kabal]

@ Tacosnape

Any reason you aren't playing Spell Snare? I've found the card a pretty awesome 3x.

Exactly ... I played this list the other night @ weekly event and Spell Snare was MVP. I've found that I tend to put #4 in the SB and end up boarding it in most games.

Getting to people's question about the validity of Coatl. I definitely liked it, only a few times did I save my cantrips to grow Coatl. That was due to what I had on the board. It was a lightning rod for removal, I tended to drop CB first before he would ever hit. A few times he was good bait so I could land a Sower and steal their Tombstalker/goyf.

BTW, here was my list:

3 Lorescale Coatl
2 Sower of Temptation
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator

4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Ponder
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Counterbalance

2 Engineered Explosives
4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Windswept Heath

[Sage]

Exactly ... I played this list the other night @ weekly event and Spell Snare was MVP. I've found that I tend to put #4 in the SB and end up boarding it in most games.

Getting to people's question about the validity of Coatl. I definitely liked it, only a few times did I save my cantrips to grow Coatl. That was due to what I had on the board. It was a lightning rod for removal, I tended to drop CB first before he would ever hit. A few times he was good bait so I could land a Sower and steal their Tombstalker/goyf.

BTW, here was my list:

3 Lorescale Coatl
2 Sower of Temptation
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator

4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Ponder
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Counterbalance

2 Engineered Explosives
4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Windswept Heath

Side Board? I know it's meta dependent, but something for a general meta (currently tipping towards aggro?) would be appreciated. I do wonder if the lack of red will make for a less effective side board... If in fact the meta shift is slightly towards aggro, then pyroclasm effects are invaluable. The only reason I beat goblins in Chicago was by sandbagging an opening hand Firespout until it was a ~7 for 1 thus stabalizing at ~ 12 life and taking it down from there (I played Ugr Dreadstill w/cb-top).

As for Lorescale Coatl, I agree that he can be amazing. But, what I fear is it being taken by the opponents Sower after I've spent time growing it and getting taken down by my own creature that I spent 2-3 turns growing. The only thing it has going for it is that it usually grows out of reach of Shackles in time/in response. I also don't like the idea of holding my Brainstorms as do some others that have commented above. I personally think the card still has to be proven as a contender.

[Waya]

While I still don't believe Coatl is a great card, people's reactions to it are making it great. They're thinking it's putting them into a Bart Simpson Paradox ("You're damned if you do, damned if you don't"). They're 'fraid if they don't kill it soon and waste a removal spell that it will get big and eat them alive. Because of this, they're forced to spend a removal spell on what is really only a so-so creature. On the other hand, if it goes unanswered long enough, or in the right situation, it will be lethal in only a few turns.

[e=mc^2]

While I still don't believe Coatl is a great card, people's reactions to it are making it great. They're thinking it's putting them into a Bart Simpson Paradox ("You're damned if you do, damned if you don't"). They're 'fraid if they don't kill it soon and waste a removal spell that it will get big and eat them alive. Because of this, they're forced to spend a removal spell on what is really only a so-so creature. On the other hand, if it goes unanswered long enough, or in the right situation, it will be lethal in only a few turns.

So people either kill Cotal or it kills them in a few turns. That sounds like their fears of death are well founded. Just like Goyf, Coatl grows by just playing magic. If your opponents don't remove it it will get bigger every turn, while some turns it will get a lot bigger. Also, just like Goyf, Coatl is a fairly quick clock. I think that in threat light countertop decks Coatl is a great option for threats 5-8.

[keys]

Sure Coatl is similar to Goyf in a lot of ways, but the main difference is when you topdeck it, it's only ever going to be a 2/2. If you tap out or don't have Brainstorm backup, it's going to eat a Bolt or chump a bear pretty quickly.

[Mayk0l]

Sure Coatl is similar to Goyf in a lot of ways, but the main difference is when you topdeck it, it's only ever going to be a 2/2. If you tap out or don't have Brainstorm backup, it's going to eat a Bolt or chump a bear pretty quickly.

By this logic, Countryside Crusher would be a bad card too. If you're tapped out you can't cycle lands, and it wouldn't grow until your next upkeep. I'd have to disagree. Sure, if CSC lives he fixes your draw. If Coatl lives, you win too.


They're 'fraid if they don't kill it soon and waste a removal spell that it will get big and eat them alive.

Yes, and it will. It just does a lot faster than people think it does.

[Mordel]

Some folks that I hold in high regard are telling me to keep testing coatl, so I will, but a comparison drawn between him and crusher is a fucking terrible one.

From a statistical standpoint, crusher is guaranteed to get two +1+1 counters every turn. he also fuels and engine and has a huge portion of a deck that works seamlessly with him. I have played about as many matches with coatl in a deck as crusher now and have found crusher to be an insane "grower" and also filters some of my draws.

Coatl is guaranteed one counter per turn, which isn't bad and if you want to sink a fair amount of mana into him at sorcery speed, he'll grow at a faster pace, but to do requires two of the same card. Aside from normal draws and janky-feeling hi jinks with a single top, there are eight cards in a the deck to pump him, one of which is guaranteed to be played early. Furthermore, cutting ponders seems to be a popular trend, so eight is an unrealistic number to a certain extent.

When you compare that to a loam deck with crusher, you have five cycle lands(sometimes less or more give or take), seven to eight fetchlands, life from the loam, his own ability, devastating dreams, wasteland and I think that is about it. Keep in mind too that the number of loams is often for all intents and purposes six or more depending on the number of wishes. Loam will give him at least one from a dredge session and at least one after it returns lands, so in effect, with a loam active, he will be getting a potential three extra counters at the least each turn, thanks to his built-in ability, lands that sac and cycle lands.

In any event, I am still begrudginly testing coatls regadless, but comparing him to crusher is retarded because crusher does a lot more than just get big in a loam deck. If you want to compare coatl to something, use vinelasher kudzu or dryad.

[keys]

By this logic, Countryside Crusher would be a bad card too. If you're tapped out you can't cycle lands, and it wouldn't grow until your next upkeep. I'd have to disagree. Sure, if CSC lives he fixes your draw. If Coatl lives, you win too.

I made a completely objective observation and you infer there's a flaw in my "logic"? ...

[Mordel]

When someone makes a grossly inaccurate comparison that shows a lack of knowledge or petering-out of counter-arguments, that basically signals that they are bowing out of a debate in my opinion. Comparisons won't get people anywhere as far as proving the merit of a card is concerned. Results do. No one is going to change anyone's mind unless they are supplying real data from games via reports, lists that place and the like. Once you start saying: "A is good, so by relation, so is B because they both..." and shit like that, it just gets convoluted and loses credibility to the other side.

That's why I've said "fuck it" and am continuing to test coatl on my own. I suggest people that don't like them do the same, so you'll at least have something beyond conjecture to bring to the table if you even feel so inclined. After a while, if I find that I am still not liking them, I am just going to take them out and put either trygdons or RWMs back and leave it at that.

[Mayk0l]

Mordel: No, you're not reading what I'm saying, I'm not comparing Crusher to Coatl 1:1. You just see the words "Coatl", "Crusher" and "compare" in one sentence and go berserk. I actually pointed it out in my post too, but I'll say it again. If you're tapped out, Crusher comes into play as a creature that's in Bolt range too. And we accept that because if it survives that, it does everything you want it to do in that deck. I'm saying, it's a bad argument for not running it. Let me point it out again for you: Crusher is awesome beyond the first turn, moreso than Coatl because of the deck it's in, and in that way they're not to be compared, but after that first turn, and only then, do both get the chance to do what they're supposed to do. And that's why, in a limited way, they can be compared.



I made a completely objective observation and you infer there's a flaw in my "logic"? ...

Yes, because with what you're saying, you're implying it's a bad thing.
That's the reason I made the comparison. When you said what you said about Coatl I read:
"Crusher: But the main difference is when you topdeck it, it's only ever going to be a 3/3. If you tap out or don't have Fetchland/Wasteland backup, it's going to eat a Bolt or chump a creature pretty quickly."


Results do.
Yeah, my results with Coatl have been posted on the second page. Sure, it's only one tournament, but I haven't really had more chances to try it.





But fine, whatever, whether you think I'm a "retard" or not, playing it because Taco says you should is as good a reason as any, the results are the same.

[idraleo]

I'm trying to play a most creature based decklist. Coatl is 2 off since i thought that what was sayed by Taco is good, but i dislike to open an hand with 2 of them into; i'd rather to have 2 Vendilion instead, since it is better suited from Qasali that makes them a 4/2 on the attack, and gives to us the advantage to know what our opponent could do on theyr turn. As the 5-6th StP effect i choose Bant charm, since it handle artifact too and pitches to Force in some case. Aniway, i like the split of 2 Qasali and 1 Trygon suggested by Taco, and i think i'll give it a try...

// Lands
3 Snow-Covered Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Plains
3 Tundra

// Creatures
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Lorescale Coatl
3 Qasali Pridemage

// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Daze
2 Bant Charm

[keys]

Yes, because with what you're saying, you're implying it's a bad thing.

Um, because it is? I don't know how you can say it isn't. It can have other strengths but being vulnerable early is definitely not one of them. The fact that Crusher has the same drawback does not mean it doesn't exist nor in any way mitigates it. For your clarification, I was responding to e=mc^2's comparison between GOYF and Coatl that "Coatl grows by just playing magic" which isn't exactly sound because the turns before Coatl hit play do nothing to grow it. It's that simple.

[blueneverfails]

This is the list that I'm running with, its like a mix of gp chicago winner and some additions that I've done with the readings from this thread.

Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [CHK] Island (3)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [R] Tundra
3 [U] Underground Sea

Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
2 [ARB] Lorescale Coatl
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage

// Spells
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [LRW] Ponder
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [AP] Pernicious Deed


I would prefer to go with 3 coatl's but I also see the need for Qasa, soo I found room somehow to put in 2 Qasa's, and soo far I have liked them there.
Figured I would throw this out there and see what you guys think,(the sideboard is just for me because of my play style and meta, so ignore it). I would love to find a way to up the count on ponders to help with coatl's but I don't kno what to do. Anyone got suggestions for me?

[Jurrit]

I'm Rather New to the Legacy World, This is my first take on UGW Thrësh.

4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [7TH] Island (3)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [R] Tropical Island
3 [R] Tundra
1 [7TH] Plains
1 [7TH] Forest

Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [RAV] Rhox War Monk
4 [ARB] Nimble Mongoose
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage

// Spells
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2[SHA] Oblivion Ring

I tried the deck out last week and it wasn't that much of a big succes. So I would like to know is the deck not build well or are my playing skills weak?

I would also Like to know how to play this deck good, some good pointer for the deck.
Most articles I can find on this deck are a bit outdated. So can anybody point me to a good "Primer" of "Play guide" for this deck or tell some of your own Tactics with the deck.

Greets.

[Tacosnape]

This is the list that I'm running with, its like a mix of gp chicago winner and some additions that I've done with the readings from this thread.

List

So you're basically Nassif, -1 land, -1 Grip, +2 Pridemage? I can get behind that.

I'd reverse your Tundra and your Sea count, though. For black all you have to hit is Dark Confidant. For White you now need to hit Swords and Qasali Pridemage both, and as STP costs less than Confidant, sometimes you'll need to hit the white first, which can make a difference if all you have is Tropical/the third Sea or Tundra for land.

[coraz86]

Has anyone tested this with a Savannah? I've found myself wanting one numerous times when I've run CounterTop. I can't say I've wanted them often enough to run like three, but I definitely would try one (I agree with Taco that you really want your white and you want it early).

[blueneverfails]

So you're basically Nassif, -1 land, -1 Grip, +2 Pridemage? I can get behind that.

I'd reverse your Tundra and your Sea count, though. For black all you have to hit is Dark Confidant. For White you now need to hit Swords and Qasali Pridemage both, and as STP costs less than Confidant, sometimes you'll need to hit the white first, which can make a difference if all you have is Tropical/the third Sea or Tundra for land.

Yea I was playing around with nassif's build and wanted to add coatl and pridemage, and I've liked it, and also I have switched the land count and have liked it alot better.

[mercenarybdu]

great to hear that there is finally a thread for this kind of stuff rather than deck plans. Still, good place to do vast compare and comparissions on decks with the two card tactic.

[GrAsH]

Well, I was playing around some lists and came up with this build:

UGW Countertop
1 Plains
2 Island
2 Forest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswepth Heath
2 Polluted Delta
1 Academy Ruins

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Lorescare Coatl
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Sower of Temptation

3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Daze
1 Krosan Grip
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles

Sideboard:
2 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Stifle (my metagame has ANT and other combo decks)
1 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Engineered Explosives

Yep, 3 Counterbalance. And a noob question, lol: Where can I discuss Team America decks?

[J.V.]

And a noob question, lol: Where can I discuss Team America decks?

And the survey says: "In the Team America (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11605) thread."

[GrAsH]

And the survey says: "In the Team America (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11605) thread."


LOL, I searched for it but I couldn't find it, sorry. Thanks for help. :wink:

[Enigma]

Well, I was playing around some lists and came up with this build:

UGW Countertop
1 Plains
2 Island
2 Forest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswepth Heath
2 Polluted Delta
1 Academy Ruins

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Lorescare Coatl
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Sower of Temptation

3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Daze
1 Krosan Grip
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles

Sideboard:
2 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Stifle (my metagame has ANT and other combo decks)
1 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Engineered Explosives

Yep, 3 Counterbalance. And a noob question, lol: Where can I discuss Team America decks?

Only 3 CB? 4 non-islands lands with 2 shackles? I can't understand this setup, seriously.

P-M

[GrAsH]

Only 3 CB? 4 non-islands lands with 2 shackles? I can't understand this setup, seriously.

P-M

I think the deck has enough Islands (8) to maximize Shackles' potential, imo. Yes, I can add the 4th CB, without problems, but I'm also new to Legacy (despite of having some cards for a while and making good decks) and I would read your opinions. Maybe cutting Academy Ruins and 1 Forest for 2 more Islands?

[Mictlantecuhtli]

I think the deck has enough Islands (8) to maximize Shackles' potential, imo. Yes, I can add the 4th CB, without problems, but I'm also new to Legacy (despite of having some cards for a while and making good decks) and I would read your opinions. Maybe cutting Academy Ruins and 1 Forest for 2 more Islands?

Only 8 islands out of potential 12 doesn't quite maximise Shackles. Yes, you will often have enough islands to nick a Tombstalker from your opponent, however, by running the non-islands you are just giving your deck the chance to mana-screw its own Shackles.

Now, you're already running Sower of Temptation and Swords to Plowshares so you will probably be fine in the creature control/removal department and you could easily go for the fourth Counterbalance or something else like Jitte, another cantrip, etc.

[dr.knockers]

My current experimental list;

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Lorescale Coatl
2 Trygon predator
2 Sower of Temptation

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Threads of Disloyalty

2 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Island

Is spell snare still good enough? Can anyone give me good comments about my build. I don't plat 1 CC creatures, because often with threshold a turn 1 creature is bad.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I would play 4 tops and 3 cbs long before I'd play 4 cbs and 3 tops. Top is like the best card in the deck, and does stuff without CB if you don't have it. CB on its own is not nearly as powerful. In addition, top helps find CB. I run 4 tops and 3 cbs in my build and never have trouble finding CB, and can win games without it since top is just that broken.

[zulander]

some of the cards it nails: tarmogoyf, counterbalance, hymn to tourach, counterspell, dark confidant, diabolic edict, umezawa's jitte, nantuko shade, cabal ritual, price of progress, daze, painter's servant, etc.

Please don't tell me you spell snare daze. Chances are that if you're spell snaring a daze you're losing anyways because you're a bad player.

[Kuma]

My first attempt at a Natural Order Thresh list:

4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
1 Island
1 Forest

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lorescale Coatl
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Progenitus

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
3 Natural Order

Sideboard:
3 Mind Harness
4 Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Engineered Explosives

My metagame right now is 2-3 Zoo (2 RGW, 1 Domain), 1-2 Dragon Stompy, 1-2 Countertop, 1 Belcher, 1-2 Aggro Loam, 1-2 Painter (1 Imperial, 1 UR), 1-2 Enchantress, 1 Elves!, and 1 Merfolk.

I'm wandering about a couple of things:

1) Is this the best CounterTop list for my metagame? I think NO Thresh is a good choice because most of the above decks have problems with either CounterTop or Progenitus. Also the Hierarchs help get around Moons.

2) How essential is Ponder? Should I try to squeeze a few in?

3) What about Rhox War Monk? It seems like he'd be very good against Zoo, but the casting cost gives me pause, especially with all the Moons in my meta. I also feel Lorescale Coatl is the better creature.

4) Should the Qasali Pridemages be Trygon Predators? Or maybe something else entirely?

5) How does the sideboard look? Would you change it given the expected metagame? One thing to keep in mind is that the Aggro Loam might go away soon. Its players are getting sick of it.

[kkoie]

My first attempt at a Natural Order Thresh list:
3 Qasali Pridemage

4) Should the Qasali Pridemages be Trygon Predators? Or maybe something else entirely?


Why not run a mixture of both? I can see pro and cons for running either. Personally I would go with Trygon because he flies and hits an enchantment / artifact each turn (and he is harder for counter balance to counter). But I could see running 1 or 2 trygons and 1 or 2 Qasili Pridemages.

[keys]

Please don't tell me you spell snare daze. Chances are that if you're spell snaring a daze you're losing anyways because you're a bad player.

lol. I think it's just a running joke. Check the Team America thread.:tongue:

[Sage]

I'm attending a tournament this Saturday, and I was wondering what everyone's thoughts were on the version of cb/top that does best in an open meta. The lists I have been thinking about are megaman and Stefan Czolk's list from the Bazaar of Moxen 3 - Legacy Champs T4. My feelings are that this tournament, although diverse, will lean towards the aggro/burn side since that seems to be the trend as of late in legacy tournaments. I've also seen decks running Grim Lavamancer/Jitte to combat creature oriented decks and wondered how that was working out for people and if Shackles was better/worse than Jitte in testing vs aggro. I am currently playing Brassman's list from Chicago with a white splash instead of a black splash for Swords (Tombstalker is a pain).

Also, how the hell does cb/top deal with dragon stompy playing blood moon on T1? I think we scoop it up and head to g2 and hope our hydro/beblasts save the day if we can't outright counter it? Any input is much appreciated.

[Tacosnape]

Also, how the hell does cb/top deal with dragon stompy playing blood moon on T1? I think we scoop it up and head to g2 and hope our hydro/beblasts save the day if we can't outright counter it? Any input is much appreciated.

Force of Will's your best option, as is Daze if you go second. Postboard, the Blasts make a huge difference, as does sticking a Predator/Pridemage.

Dragon Stompy's never exactly been a fantastic matchup, but it's winnable. Sometimes your opponent will just lose to himself, too.

[Taurelin]

Also, how the hell does cb/top deal with dragon stompy playing blood moon on T1?

Play 6 basic Islands. Like Probasco did.

[Tacosnape]

3) What about Rhox War Monk? It seems like he'd be very good against Zoo, but the casting cost gives me pause, especially with all the Moons in my meta. I also feel Lorescale Coatl is the better creature

4) Should the Qasali Pridemages be Trygon Predators? Or maybe something else entirely?

3. Rhox War Monk is awful. Anything that is Rhox War Monk could instead be not Rhox War Monk.

4. I'd suggest running a 2/1 split in favor of Trygon Predator due to the fact that you're running Natural Order / Progenitus. The reasons for this are as follows.

A: On rare occasions there might be some bizarre circumstance where you don't want to Natural Order for Progenitus. Situations that come to mind include Moat and Meekstone, where you might want to hunt up the Trygon Predator, or Survival of the Fittest where you know they run Fleshbag Marauder, in which case you might want to fetch the Qasali Pridemage.

B: Trygon Predator pitches to Force where Pridemage doesn't. This is more relevant when you're trying to protect your Natural Orders in order to just auto-win with Progenitus.

C. Exalted is less relevant in this sort of build, because sometimes you're going to get the Progenitus out and it's going to kill in 2 swings period.

[gamegeek2]

Hierarch does power out Turn 3 Order, but that's not really necessary. I'd rather have stuff like Predator, Coatl, or Pridemage.

[Valtrix]

Hmm, so recently I was playing a 4c zoo list with AEther vials on workstation. (With pridemages of course.) We had really close games, but I learned after the fact that my opponent sided out his counterbalances against me(!) I'm not well versed in with countertop, so I was wondering when countertop players might want to sideboard out their balances, so I can try to better play against that.

Also for reference he seemed to be playing a build with war monk/goyf/qasali pridemage as the creature base. I think he sided in hydroblast, EE, and path. Is it normal or not to even side out balance?

[Tacosnape]

Hmm, so recently I was playing a 4c zoo list with AEther vials on workstation. (With pridemages of course.) We had really close games, but I learned after the fact that my opponent sided out his counterbalances against me(!) I'm not well versed in with countertop, so I was wondering when countertop players might want to sideboard out their balances, so I can try to better play against that.

Also for reference he seemed to be playing a build with war monk/goyf/qasali pridemage as the creature base. I think he sided in hydroblast, EE, and path. Is it normal or not to even side out balance?

It's certainly somewhat abnormal to side it out against Zoo. Then again, it's abnormal for Zoo to run Aether Vial too. And it sounds like he had a heavy sideboard for you. So while this isn't generally something that I'd say is a good idea, in that particular build versus your particular build, it might not have been an awful one. But no, it's generally not standard at all.

[Valtrix]

Okay, thanks. I didn't think it was, but at the same time I don't want my krosan grips to become dead everytime I side them in against counterbalance. I did have an abnormal amount of hate for it though (Vial + pridemage + grip) is quite a lot of enchantment/artifact hate.

[johanessen]

3. Rhox War Monk is awful. Anything that is Rhox War Monk could instead be not Rhox War Monk.

4. I'd suggest running a 2/1 split in favor of Trygon Predator due to the fact that you're running Natural Order / Progenitus. The reasons for this are as follows.

A: On rare occasions there might be some bizarre circumstance where you don't want to Natural Order for Progenitus. Situations that come to mind include Moat and Meekstone, where you might want to hunt up the Trygon Predator, or Survival of the Fittest where you know they run Fleshbag Marauder, in which case you might want to fetch the Qasali Pridemage.

B: Trygon Predator pitches to Force where Pridemage doesn't. This is more relevant when you're trying to protect your Natural Orders in order to just auto-win with Progenitus.

C. Exalted is less relevant in this sort of build, because sometimes you're going to get the Progenitus out and it's going to kill in 2 swings period.


Rhox War Monk. I have the same feeling about this critter. In a high lvl meta plagued of countertop and aggrocontrol decks is like a 3/4 vanilla. Lorescale is far better. But on the other hand it helps alot against Burn, Rg, Canadian mainly.


Trygon/Qasali. Mixed feelings about em. Trygon decides mus against stax, affinity, enchantress, etc. Qasali helps to go Aggro in Goyf wars. While Qasali can be instant-speed, trygon can't. Trygon is better blocker than Qasali and has flying, and also is Pitcheable, but Qasali can be sac'ed for the Natural Order if you play it (not in my case). I'm not sure which to pick up in main deck, but i think an split is not the best way to go, is more like "I'm undecided so I'll play both".

About Sower/Shackles. I think it depends on your playstile. More aggro, then run Qasali and Sower. Controlish, then run Shackles and Trygon. Sower can be played on 4th turn and gets any body (targeteable), while on shackles are a bit slower since I play basic forest and plains (One of each), so maybe we'll have to wait to get a stalker or a crusher.

Explain your experience and opinions thanks.

I'll post the list I'm playing atm:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
19 Lands

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Lorescale Coatl
3 Trygon Predator
2 Sower of Temptation
12 Creatures

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
2 Ponder
1 Umezawa's Jitte
29 Spells

4 Meddling Mage
3 Hydroblast
2 Path to Exile
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Krosan Grip
15 Sideboard

[chokin]

@johanessen - Trygon can be sac'd to Natty Order too :P . How are you liking Jitte? Also, what's SB Mages for? I've found them to be mediocre against combo decks (Belcher has Blasts, AdN works around them, etc.)

My thoughts on Coatl vs RWM:
Both are 3cc, Coatl is only 2 colors, RWM is 3. Coatl can be Bolted without protection, RWM cant. Coatl's the better clock and a solid blocker shortly after it's played while RWM has a static p/t and still a good blocker with a nasty side effect (life gain). Against decks that punish nonbasics, Coatl's easier to cast. Both die to Red Blasts, Smother, StP, Snuff Out, etc. Both lack evasion. Both are pitchable to FoW.

Ultimately I feel that Coatl comes out ahead. Opponents who are familiar with the snake know it's potential. I'm not sure if RWM's lifegain is significant enough to make or break a game. I think that he rocks with a Jitte on, and I'd probably run some Predators in my creature package to take advantage of that. But I personally don't think I'll take him over Coatl.

I liked Taco's idea on Predict. I was testing them just before reading that post. Also, why are people cutting Ponders?

[johanessen]

I like Jitte since i don't run RWM. Some kind of life gain is needed.

[gustha]

I didnt' thought about RWm in some ways excluding or making jitte less important... Here's the list I'm testing at the moment (I come from landstill, so some choiches are bent toward a more controllish gameplan)

Lands: 19
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
8 fetches

Permission: 10
4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
3 Daze

Draw Engine:
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

Beaters: 14
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
3 Troll Ascetic

Removal/Tools:
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Some things to point out:
- I miss the 4th cb; the fact is, you can cast a blind cb on t2, but you fully use it on t4, so while I want to see it, maybe it's no use to have 4.
- pridemage/trygon: i think the comparison is all in the favour of pridemage; DIF already explained very well the reasons for this choice, and the fact that trygon pitches to fow is absolutely irrelevant in a deck where we have tons of blue cards to pitch. Pridemage is not only reactive as trygon is, but also proactive agains all the nasty things the meta can provide (chalice, shackles, via, needle, B2B, crucible, counterbalance, EE, deed, nought, standstill, mishra... forgive me if I forgot something)
- jitte's become 2 vendilion clique, but i'm not so fond of this change. I prefere having a beater that a tool like jitte, which is good but not stricly necessary; clique is elusive and has a counterspell-like built-in effect that makes it interesting.
- I miss EE's or another removal tool like oring
- I think troll ascetic has really been understimated; those slots were previously bant charms, but then I though at what charm is good at, and I reversed the logic to find if there was a card which represented the nightmare of bant charm: that is troll ascetic. It's regenerating abilities paired with his untergettability by our opponent's removal makes him the best blocker we can count on (better than lorescale coatl), and an annoying attacker as well

[johanessen]

I didnt' thought about RWm in some ways excluding or making jitte less important...
RWM don't exclude the Jitte, but having one or two Jittes may exclude RWM.


Lands: 19
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
8 fetches

Permission: 10
4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
3 Daze

Draw Engine:
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

Beaters: 14
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
3 Troll Ascetic

Removal/Tools:
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant


Playing so many basic islands along with Trolls, Qasalis and Elspeth... we'll maybe it works, but i don't like it.



- I miss the 4th cb; the fact is, you can cast a blind cb on t2, but you fully use it on t4, so while I want to see it, maybe it's no use to have 4.

But a first turn Ponder/Top (even Brainstorms) Doesn't mean a blind cb on t2.

[Tangle.Wire]

Hi guys i wonder how u think about this list:

Creatures:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Morphling

Spells:

4 Force of Will
3 Duress
4 Daze
3 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
3 Vindicate
4 Swords to plowshares
3 Senseis divining top
2 ponder
1 Vedalken Shackles

Lands:

4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains

Sideboard:

3 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's crypt
1 Duress
4 Hydroblast
1 vindicate


Since Chicago my Meta got lots of Landstill, Countertop/Baseruption and Control Lists like the rock etc.

[gustha]

RWM don't exclude the Jitte, but having one or two Jittes may exclude RWM.
For what? Maybe K finks? RWM is a solid beater and its lifegain ability, along with the fact that doesn't get a bolt in the face without counter backup, makes him better than jitte (which, it may seem stupid to point out, needs a solid beater and doesn't work by its own...).


Playing so many basic islands along with Trolls, Qasalis and Elspeth... we'll maybe it works, but i don't like it.
You have a point. Maybe 3 basic islands is too much, my goal was to keep at least 5 basics, and raise the count of plains/forest is not a good move. However, elspeth is a 1-of (so not problematic, it's a mid-late game card), while on the contrary ascetic is annoying. I don't often (barely never) fetch for early double blue, so it's possibile that I cut a basic island for something (I sometimes miss a savannah, you don't?). Also, since I' trying to build a more controllish build, I thought that maybe trinket mage would help more in the effort than a good card (as it doubtless is) like troll ascetic, so:
-1 land (the basic island?)
-3 troll ascetic
-1 jitte

+2 trinket mage
+1 EE
+1 Counterbalance
+1 path to exile

The SB:
3 gaddock
1 EE
1 jitte
2 path
2 krosan
3 beb/hydro
3 relics

Troll is a solid beater/defender, but trinket mage stops topdecking as it fetches top preboard, and also gets most of the stuff postboard. path is the 5th stp and puts a jitte in the sb: is it possibile that the stuff are interchangeable, or that it becomes a oring for the cc3 curve.

[johanessen]

For what? Maybe K finks? RWM is a solid beater and its lifegain ability, along with the fact that doesn't get a bolt in the face without counter backup, makes him better than jitte (which, it may seem stupid to point out, needs a solid beater and doesn't work by its own...).

While you play 4 Qasalis and 3 RWM I play 3 Trygon, 3 Lorescale and 2 Sower.
Qasalis may been sac'ed for the disenchant effect, so i think I'll have sufficient solid beaters to equip Jitte.

That being said, while Rhox and one of the Jitte habilities helps with life gain, Jitte is alot more flexible than RWM because can pump our goyfs or kill confidants and such, so I think Jitte>RWM.

[coraz86]

On the subject of lifegain, has anyone tried a couple Loxodon Hierarchs in the board? It's a big dude who gains life when he comes into play, plus he can counter Ringleader with CB. It's narrow enough that I don't know if he deserves room (I think Jitte wins if you have to pick only one), but if Goblins/Goyf Sligh/Zoo is an issue, I think Hierarch deserves a second look.

[memnarch]

On the subject of lifegain, has anyone tried a couple Loxodon Hierarchs in the board? It's a big dude who gains life when he comes into play, plus he can counter Ringleader with CB. It's narrow enough that I don't know if he deserves room (I think Jitte wins if you have to pick only one), but if Goblins/Goyf Sligh/Zoo is an issue, I think Hierarch deserves a second look.

I think its just that mystic enforcer is insanely good for that same price and counterbalance hoses burn. If you have a problem with burn may I suggest
Thorn of Amethyst its really good against combo too.

[gustha]

Has anybody considered the presence of planeswalkers in countertop? Just as a 1-of, as mid game cards. Jace beleren is cool as it stops topdecks, while Elspeth is a solid board keeper and goes well for the counterattack. I actually play 1 elspeth in the list I'm testing, don't know if I can find room for a jace...

[memnarch]

Has anybody considered the presence of planeswalkers in countertop? Just as a 1-of, as mid game cards. Jace beleren is cool as it stops topdecks, while Elspeth is a solid board keeper and goes well for the counterattack. I actually play 1 elspeth in the list I'm testing, don't know if I can find room for a jace...

I play 4 silver bullets in my deck Elspeth is one. She has been insanely good to me. I remember being so impressed with her in T2 control. Because Elspeth's first two abilitys adds counters and she is not destroyed by creature removal either. I think running silver bullets is a great strategy for this deck with all the searching.

[gustha]

I play 4 silver bullets in my deck Elspeth is one. She has been insanely good to me. I remember being so impressed with her in T2 control. Because Elspeth's first two abilitys adds counters and she is not destroyed by creature removal either. I think running silver bullets is a great strategy for this deck with all the searching.

So here's the list I'm testing atm:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [R] Tropical Island
3 [R] Tundra
3 [UG] Island
1 [UG] Forest
1 [UG] Plains

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
2 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [NE] Daze
1 [CFX] Path to Exile
1 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
3 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [5E] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle

The only slot I see as viable for jace is the jitte slot. I prefer having the 5th stp than the second jitte, just because having answers to first turn lackey is good, and oh well, having 5 stp is better than 4... Jitte's mana investment, the fact that it goes under snare, the hate connected, etc. etc.... I'm not really fond of it... What silver bullets do you play?

[memnarch]

Trinket Mage is cool because it shuffles you deck for your top but you know what else is cool? LORESCALE COATL. Do you really think Rhox war monk is a better beater? And also making Goyfs/COATL +3+3 flying with Elspeth is the TEC-9.

[gustha]

No, i don't think coatl is a better beater than RWM.

Monk:
-more specific mana required;
-lifelink;
-doesn't get shot at the face when it comes into play;
-a 3/4 ever;
-a 3/4 even when you topdeck it.

Coatl:
-less specific mana required;
-no relevant abilities;
-does get shot in the face when it comes into play;
-grows;
-a 2/2 when you topdeck it.

All in all, I don't see the snake as being that cool as it takes time to grow. I prefer swinging with my 6/7 (with maybe some exalted trigger) lifelink flying pissed rhino monk than with a "look mom I'm a snake with wings" "x/x" flying coatl. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[memnarch]

Hey well, its almost always a 4/4 the turn it swings and just gets ginormous from there. Between the tops, brainstorms, and ponder you already run, there is a sufficient amount of draw to run it. If your worried about bolt thats what counterbalance is there for. I think if you spent any time testing with it you would know.

[chokin]

I think that Coatl is perfectly fine if you establish your CounterTop lock (preventing him from being Bolted). I think that Coatl's small initial body is the only weakness, but BOTH RWM and Coatl die to all of the same removal outside of burn (STP, Smother, PTE, Snuff Out, Wrath, Deeds, blah blah blah).

I think that if you're rushing out your creatures as soon as you hit the mana to do it, you might be playing the deck wrong. I've always felt that establishing control before playing beats is a better road to success than rushing out beats. Any time I've played Coatl, I had the ability to make him AT LEAST a 4/4...or had CBTop down to where burn is not a threat at all.

If my opponent has a RWM and I have a Coatl, he may get a couple hits in, but Coatl quickly becomes like Goyf, a wall that RWM won't beat, and that's the end of that.

[Misplayer]

I think that Coatl is perfectly fine if you establish your CounterTop lock
Haven't you already won the game at this point?

EDIT: Meaning, you find Goyf, you play Goyf, you win.

[Jak]

Lorescale being weak once it comes into play also applies to defense. Sure it can be burned, but the fact that topdecking it when you need an answer to a swarm of Goblins, Elves, or Merfolk means you lose. War Monk can provide a bigger body while his lifelink puts you out of burn range or weenie range. War Monk is there to beat aggro and does a lot more in MUs that you want to win than Lorescale.

[gustha]

I agree with my two fellows above. I have tested coatl, and that's why I don't like it... As brent said, by the time you established the cb lock you're already safe from burn speels and stp, so you're right that in this case the difference between coatl and monk is no way the removal they can get but how large they can grow. The fact is, we need a beater that's no dependant on counterbalance lock to be assested to live, especially in those problematic MU's in which we side counterbalance out (swarming aggro...). Also, playing more controllish, I tend to leave a war monk in defense, just because a 3/4 lifelink wall is something that can prevent the oppo from attacking if it has no elusive guys (imagine a tapped out gobbo with piledriver and warchief ready to attack, while you sit behind your rhino wall...just a time walk, if he don't want to sac the warchief; what else had the opponent done if that were a snake?). Anyway, quote misplayer and jak.

[Gekoratel]

I played in the Binghamton event going 6-2 in the swiss losing to Anwar playing Eva Green and to Geoffrey Smelski running UWB Landstill. I was very happy with the deck and most of my losses were from subtle mistakes and boarding incorrectly. I didn’t spend enough time looking at the sideboards of a many decks which lead to me boarding incorrectly a couple rounds. I lost to Matt Abold in the T16 finishing in 15th but I punted G2 after winning G1 which was frustrating.

On Sunday there was a Legacy event for a Lotus in PA where I split in the finals against Matt Elias with UR Painter Control running the same list expect I cut 1MD Firespout for a 3rd Veldalken Shackles since its easily one of the best cards in the deck. Here’s what I ran at Binghamton

3 Island
3 Snow-covered Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Academy Ruins
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Trinket Mage
3 Sower of Temptation
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Spellsnare
4 Counterbalance
2 Firespout
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Force of Will

SB
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Duress
1 Pyroclasm
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Red Elemental Blast

Changes for PA Lotus event
MD: -1 Firespout +1 Shackles
SB: -1 Relic of Progenitus +1 Firespout.

The Firespout in the board likely should have been Pyroclasm since the 2 vs. 3cc is a big difference against Goblins Port/Wasteland mana denial and having X 3cc spells doesn’t matter as much post-board against the decks you’re bringing it in.

I think Probasco counter-top is by far the best Counterbalance strategy since someone like myself who plays minimal Legacy can do well with it and I’d say I was only playing the deck at around 80% of its full potential.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

I've been playing a deck with countertop, that does very well. My Friend Gus turned me to it, and I play it every once in a while, and I usually get 1st, if not then top 4-8.

1 Island
1 Forest
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand

4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
4 Daze
1 Misdirection

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain of Plasma
1 Lightning Storm

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Swans of Bryn Argoll

SB
3 E. Explosives
3 Pyroclasm
3 Stifle
3 BEG
3 Krosan Grip

Pretty Simple. Im not sure if this is an older deck, but It goes 2 ways either combo off, or just play threshold!

[Tangle.Wire]

Hi everyone, i wonder whats the fact that so many people prefer the ugw lists more than the ugb/w lists, dark confidant is so good with the divining top engine and speeds the deck up a lot more than ponder i think. I am actually running this list but i got some spots id like to discuss with some other players playing the deck.

Heres mine:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Morphling
2 Trygon Predator

4 Counterbalance
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
3 Swords to plowshares
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Brainstorm
2 Vindicate
3 Senseis divining top
4 Force of Will

4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted delta

Sideboard:

4 Planar Void
4 Duress
4 Hydroblast
1 Swords to plowshares
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vindicate

I really like the deck playing a bit more controllish cause in most games i tried to went aggro the countertop solution wasnt enough to lock down the most decks. The Morphling is an ultimate silverbullet on control matchup as i faced a lot of decks like the rock, landstill, eva green the shrouded boy was the perfekt choice for a lategame drop and i am obviosly nut feeling well trusting in 4 tarmogoyf for the win.
Also Tombstalkers would set my choice around from 3-4 which would be to many slots.

The rest of the Deck is what i feel to play, i am not sure how to split the daze/spell snares both are pretty necessary in the deck but i think daze is a bit more needed as u want to drop importand cards on turn 1-3 where daze is the right backup as u wont have mana open to cast counterspells or something else.

Whats the way u guys sideboard around this deck? I choosed a full Playset of Planar voids over crypt,progenitus,leyline cause u definitly drop in the first turn ur on the play and even against dredge this is fast enough to stop it and the crypt/progenitus will catch more hate. Also the Void locks down every type of deck which diggs from the graveyard permanently which is the better choice in my opinion than the 1x effects from the artifact solutions.

Overall i was not sure which silver bullet set would be the best on a legacy meta where everything could be played so i decided to cut trinket mages and explosives which could hit myself on a 2 drop into the vindicates + trygon predator while the predator gives a permanently disenchant effect its good enough at all to be the choice over the qasali which has to be sacced.

Vindicate also is a very strong bullet cause it wins most of the control matchups targeting planeswalker, manlands, humilities, creatures i mean u remove everything u dont wanna see ;D

I d like to get some feedback about the draw solution on my list id like to play 2 ponders but i dont feel like cutting confidants :/

[blueneverfails]

Hi everyone, i wonder whats the fact that so many people prefer the ugw lists more than the ugb/w lists, dark confidant is so good with the divining top engine and speeds the deck up a lot more than ponder i think. I am actually running this list but i got some spots id like to discuss with some other players playing the deck.

Heres mine:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Morphling
2 Trygon Predator

4 Counterbalance
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
3 Swords to plowshares
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Brainstorm
2 Vindicate
3 Senseis divining top
4 Force of Will

4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted delta

Sideboard:

4 Planar Void
4 Duress
4 Hydroblast
1 Swords to plowshares
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vindicate

I really like the deck playing a bit more controllish cause in most games i tried to went aggro the countertop solution wasnt enough to lock down the most decks. The Morphling is an ultimate silverbullet on control matchup as i faced a lot of decks like the rock, landstill, eva green the shrouded boy was the perfekt choice for a lategame drop and i am obviosly nut feeling well trusting in 4 tarmogoyf for the win.
Also Tombstalkers would set my choice around from 3-4 which would be to many slots.

The rest of the Deck is what i feel to play, i am not sure how to split the daze/spell snares both are pretty necessary in the deck but i think daze is a bit more needed as u want to drop importand cards on turn 1-3 where daze is the right backup as u wont have mana open to cast counterspells or something else.

Whats the way u guys sideboard around this deck? I choosed a full Playset of Planar voids over crypt,progenitus,leyline cause u definitly drop in the first turn ur on the play and even against dredge this is fast enough to stop it and the crypt/progenitus will catch more hate. Also the Void locks down every type of deck which diggs from the graveyard permanently which is the better choice in my opinion than the 1x effects from the artifact solutions.

Overall i was not sure which silver bullet set would be the best on a legacy meta where everything could be played so i decided to cut trinket mages and explosives which could hit myself on a 2 drop into the vindicates + trygon predator while the predator gives a permanently disenchant effect its good enough at all to be the choice over the qasali which has to be sacced.

Vindicate also is a very strong bullet cause it wins most of the control matchups targeting planeswalker, manlands, humilities, creatures i mean u remove everything u dont wanna see ;D

I d like to get some feedback about the draw solution on my list id like to play 2 ponders but i dont feel like cutting confidants :/

One thing that needs to be pointed out is that if you want to play aggro, you don't play countertop. You play lists the run more counters and burn/removal without countertop, because countertop is a control card.

Now on the actual deck list, personally I prefer 4 colors too and I love confidant, playing it myself. 2 things that I would like to comment on is trygon predator I feel is a better place for pridemage, and since you are playing the colors, it wont change much. I prefer pridemage because 1, it's instant cast practically and usually, if you have more than 1 artifact or enchantment beating you, predator isn't going to have time to stop it anywaze. And the bonus is that it does not get stopped by blasts from every non blue deck sideboard and main board against painter.(and it costs 1 less to play)

The second thing is the main reason many people don't use vindicate even thou it hits sooo many things in the format, it still costs 3, and most of the time in this deck you want to keep just enough mana for countertop and thats its, that why you play daze and force of will, if your 3 mana for vindicate, then either A, you arn't playing any creatures to win the game which is giving your opponent time to get around the vindicate, or you don't have enough mana to swords or use top to counter things they are playing. This is the main reason why I do not play with vindicate. I personally feel that vindicate is better for decks like landstill because they have the mana available to keep it in hand.
(also its a sorcery)

[ansset]

You think you're getting to 5 mana against Eva Green and casting Morphling?

Or that you're going to cast Morphling against Landstill and it's not only not going to get countered, it's not going to get Wrathed, Moated, Humilitied, or chumped forever with Elspeth tokens?

You think that Morphling is going to stick around against Pernicious Deed?


Wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

[Tangle.Wire]

You think you're getting to 5 mana against Eva Green and casting Morphling?

Or that you're going to cast Morphling against Landstill and it's not only not going to get countered, it's not going to get Wrathed, Moated, Humilitied, or chumped forever with Elspeth tokens?

You think that Morphling is going to stick around against Pernicious Deed?


Wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.


I already did in many times, and the chance to get a morphling into play against landstill is as same easy as playing a tombstalker, also morphling normally doesnt catch a pernicious deed also i never played against a moat or elspeth which could stop the morphling ;D

Reaching the 5 mana or at least 6 u need to cast it is just impossible against team america if they use the full ld taktic or a crucible/wasteland lock but both will let the moprhling just pitchable for a force of will and like i said its not about how safe u can play the morphling, its about how save it is if u get it into play, all other spells i could usw for this slot also catch hate and tarmogoyf alone doesnt win. I know its hard to believe but i went 4-1-2 last tournament and won 3 of the 4 games with the morphling 2 times against landstill.

[blueneverfails]

I already did in many times, and the chance to get a morphling into play against landstill is as same easy as playing a tombstalker, also morphling normally doesnt catch a pernicious deed also i never played against a moat or elspeth which could stop the morphling ;D

Reaching the 5 mana or at least 6 u need to cast it is just impossible against team america if they use the full ld taktic or a crucible/wasteland lock but both will let the moprhling just pitchable for a force of will and like i said its not about how safe u can play the morphling, its about how save it is if u get it into play, all other spells i could usw for this slot also catch hate and tarmogoyf alone doesnt win. I know its hard to believe but i went 4-1-2 last tournament and won 3 of the 4 games with the morphling 2 times against landstill.

First I will say ansset is being an ass and has put no thought into his post and personally he should get a warning for it.

Second, My thoughts on morphling are as follows, he costs too much for my blood, I'm not a fan of going over 3 mana for anything and if I do, it is only with 1-2 cards and they must be game changers. And I don't feel that morphling is good enough for that since you have to pour mana into it to make it better than goyf. But with that said I have died to that random morphling hitting because no matter what ansset says, theres not a single goblin/threshold/red aggro/stompy/combo deck that runs hate that can easily stop this card, only about 5% of the format can stop it. I don't like it in the deck but I have seen it work, soo if you like it, keep it.(this is the reason why I didn't comment on it before.

[Kyachi]

First I will say ansset is being an ass and has put no thought into his post and personally he should get a warning for it.

You know, back-seat modding can probably get you warned yourself.

RE: Morphling. For five mana, I'm fairly certain that there are larger, cheaper creatures you could play, i.e. Enforcer, Tombstalker, et al. While I understand that the ability to make him untargetable is a draw, I don't know if it will come up enough. The targeted removal spells that are around and can hit him (such as Path to Exile or Swords) certainly are played a lot, but as Progenitus has been around, there are an increasing amount of nontargeted removal spells as well (Edicts, etc.). Landstill is obviously an issue, as it continues to make t8 appearances across the magic-playing world, and any of the above named spells -- Humility, Wrath, Deed -- can show up in that deck and play havoc with Morphling.

I know that there are other abilities on it that make it worthwhile, but it's pump abilities still don't give it the capacity to block and kill a decently sized tarmogoyf. Nor do they give it clairvoyance enough to conjure up the stolen data tapes.

Flying potential is nice, but cute, as you can just play Enforcer anyway.


As far as the rest of the deck goes, I'm not sold on Vindicate. Having played CB decks pretty much since their inception, I've found that the more colors on a spell outside of U/G, the less likely that you are to actually cast it in clutch times. Vindicate uses two splash-color mana, which is more difficult that it sounds to get a hold of. And your Scrubland should probably be a Tundra as you're playing Daze and Shackles.

Lastly, I feel like you're playing too many counters. Both Daze and Spell Snare fill a similar slot in my mind, and I usually set them up in a 3/2 split, leaning one way or the other, usually in favor of Daze. I suppose the changes that I would make are:

-1 Scrubland, -2 Vindicate, -1 Daze, -1 Spell Snare, -1 Morphling (maybe, up to you)

+1 Tundra, +1 Swords to Plowshares, +1 Sensei's Divining Top, and 3 open slots, which could be things like Lorescale Coatl if you want more beaters, Ponder if you want, Engineered Explosives if you miss Vindicate, or Sower of Temptation, as this format seems to be totally dependent on either killing or stealing Tarmogoyfs.

[Tangle.Wire]

Maybe i forgot to say it but my Meta seemed to be a lot more controllish with some countertop,landstill,rock or g/w/b loam decks so at least for landstill i need a good counterbackup or i wont be able to cast any spell. I always loved duress in the mainboard as it is very strong if your able to cast it first turn before threats appear and clears the way to drop the counterbalance. I also would like to play Counterspells but at all i have no more slots fore removal either if explosives, vindicates, others.

What do u guys think about Psychatog? i think it has much more potential than the coatl as both creatures will get a fact on the later gameparts psychatog can grow as fast as you want and a lot of times u can grow it big enough to finish in one turn, as coatl needs the draw which isnt that much as i thought while i tested it cause u never want to draw the cards with the divining top ability, ponder and brainstorm a lot of times have been played before coatl entered play. Also Tog is nearly protectable against burn without counterbackup.

Also Quirion dryad seems to be so sweet to this deck or am i wrong?

[Atog]

What do u guys think about Psychatog?


Psychatog and tarmogoyf in same deck. Not going to work well.



Also Quirion dryad seems to be so sweet to this deck or am i wrong?


That needs counter/top to protect itself, so you just want to play tarmogoyf what is right on bigger and won't need usually spells to grow bigger (you won't play that tarmo in early game if you don't have to). Yes, same removal hits tarmogoyf that hits to dryad except burns usually. But still tarmo is better choice..

[DragoFireheart]

That needs counter/top to protect itself, so you just want to play tarmogoyf what is right on bigger and won't need usually spells to grow bigger (you won't play that tarmo in early game if you don't have to). Yes, same removal hits tarmogoyf that hits to dryad except burns usually. But still tarmo is better choice..

Tarmogoyf will allow you to fight swarm decks, while the dryad is going to get run over.

[Co cccc]

Howdy guys,

First real post for me! Hooray!

Anyway, for those of you guys who play Hierarch, have you tried Cold-Eyed Selkie? I think that it goes under "the danger of cool things," but I've played a 2/2 split between him and Coatl to a ridiculous effect.

Turn 1, Hierarch.
Turn 2, Selkie.
Turn 3, Hierarch, Q.Pridemage, Swing-draw 4.
Step 3: Profit?

He's either crap or amazing, rarely anything in between, but it's a rare occasion where Coatl doesn't have the same drawback. Basically, if I have 1 or more exalted guys on the table, I'd almost always rather play selkie than coatl. They both have a weak body when they come into play, but Selkie can draw a crapload of cards before Coatl is up to par with Goyf. Selkie can dig you into answers/counters/removal... also he can grow the crap out of a Coatl if you've got one.

So... pros/cons vs. Coatl

Pro:
-DRAWS A CRAPLOAD OF CARDS!!!
-Islandwalk
-Drawing. Cards. A crapload.

Con:
-Won't be huge
-Needs exalted creatures (which requires playing Noble Hierarch, but some people play him/her? already.)
-Not as cool against non-blue decks

So far, I've had decent results with him. I think he may end up being SB material (he's a total beating against landstill). Or I may just be crazy and should be playing actual good creatures in his place.

What do you guys think?

Cheers,
Co

[DragoFireheart]

What do you guys think?


Co

I think Mogg Fanatics would love those Selkie, but that's me.

Selkie is too small.

[Tangle.Wire]

So a short backflash for the UGBw list, is the Maindeck which Nassif played actually the best list? heres something i threw up last night but didnt test. it yet:

(dont think about the morphling)

4 Dark Confidant
2 Trygon Predator
1 Morphling
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Swords to plowshares
2 engeenered explosives
4 counterbalance
4 senseis divining top
2 ponder
3 daze
2 spell snare
4 force of will
4 brainstorm

20 Lands


I think i can put Krosan grip and Vindicate in at least into the sideboard, trygon predator+explosives works nice as i have an instand removal or a permanent threat.

How u guys go to play against control matchups like landstill? Duress in the Sidboard? more Spell snares or Pithing Needles?

[Atog]

How u guys go to play against control matchups like landstill? Duress in the Sidboard? more Spell snares or Pithing Needles?

Depending build, REBs are good against control, also Grips could be usefull, depending what you are playing against. Needles work against many targets (deed, m.factory, elspeth maybe even jace, EE etc). Resolved counter/top makes life much easier :)

[Tangle.Wire]

Depending build, REBs are good against control, also Grips could be usefull, depending what you are playing against. Needles work against many targets (deed, m.factory, elspeth maybe even jace, EE etc). Resolved counter/top makes life much easier :)

Yeah i already figured out that cb works good against Landstill, what do u guys prefer more, boarding additional duress or counter? Duress good against nearly every threat on landstill and playing a first turn duress can also draw counters to drop the second turn counterbalance. :really:

[Gekoratel]

I think how the Landstill matchup plays out is going to vary from list to list of CB/Top but since Landstill has a better late game than most CB/Top decks I think you want to try and go aggro-control against them boarding out your slow controlling cards in favor of efficient disruption. I played against Landstill 3 times last weekend going 2-1 but its an uphill battle for sure. Playing Probasco CB I boarded as follows:

-3 Sower -1 Firespout, -2 Veldalken Shackles, -1 Ponder, -1 EE
+3 Duress +2 REB +1-2 Ancient Grudge(depends on opp list 2 if you see Disk and Crucible) +1 Pithing Needle

This is probably one of the few matchups where I'd like to have Dark Confidant in my deck as hes quite strong against them.

[Tangle.Wire]

I missed the discussion about the "steal creature" setup, how could it be optimal? while so many people run sower of temptation i can't agree this plan, i tried it for myself and i am sure that on the 0815 countertop lists you wont be able or at least don't want to waste counterspells just to protect the sower which dies so quickly at least on the aggro matchup it catches to much hate imo. So the alternates would be Shackles, Threats of disloyality, Control Magic, each works very great on its own, but i guess the potential of sower is that u can get any creature no matter how much casting cost or power/toughness. I think for this reason Control magic would be the better choice as an enchantment for cc4 it doesn't catch as many hate as the sower and i am sure that u never get potential of sower being a 2/2 creature.

what do we board against the more common Natural order/Progenitus combo? i am sure i wont reveal a card with cc4 on my balance and cant trust in force of will on its own, would duress be the sideboardchoice again or maybe something like Perish or hibernation?

[aTn]

what do we board against the more common Natural order/Progenitus combo? i am sure i wont reveal a card with cc4 on my balance and cant trust in force of will on its own, would duress be the sideboardchoice again or maybe something like Perish or hibernation?

Here is what I've tested in different CB-Top decks:

Perish, CoP: Colour of choice, Meekstone (in Probasco NLU).

[GrAsH]

Do you think this build is fine? I'm trying to build a normal UGW CounterTop, but i'm deciding between Qasali Pridemage and Trygon Predator.

One helps Goyf Wars, and can be a proactive threat, but due to the presence of Swords, Sower and Shackles MD, the other seems more reliable and can also be pitched to FoW.

So there's my build now, still optimizing it.

UGW CounterTop

Lands
3 Island
3 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island

Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage // Trygon Predator
3 Lorescale Coatl
2 Sower of Temptation

Spells
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Daze
1 Krosan Grip
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles

Maybe I can cut 1 Ponder, 1 Predator and 1 CB to add 3 Spell Snares to help me against some matchups. The list would be the following:

UGW CounterTop

Lands
3 Island
3 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island

Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
3 Lorescale Coatl
2 Sower of Temptation

Spells
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Spell Snare
4 Daze
1 Krosan Grip
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles

Well, it will take lots and lots of testing before next tournament.

[chokin]

UGW CounterTop

Lands
3 Island
3 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island

Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
3 Lorescale Coatl
2 Sower of Temptation

Spells
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Spell Snare
4 Daze
1 Krosan Grip
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles

Well, it will take lots and lots of testing before next tournament.

I don't think you need 4 Tundra with STP being your only white spells. Well, then again you're probably trying to maximize your Shackles. Do you think you'd drop one for another Island? Or possibly a Forest or Plains since you run some Heaths?

[johanessen]

Or possibly a Forest or Plains since you run some Heaths?

After some testing, i noticed running a basic Forest and Plains along with 4 Windswept Heath was the best way to go when i ran Qasali Pridemage. Now i'm testing Trygon Predator in that slot, if you can't protect it Trygon changes the match completely, while i found Qasali for a more agressive play. That being said, I still think the 4xWindsweapt Heath with Forest and Plains is good because you see Moon effects and Wastelands in the 50% of games. Then it takes me to the next slot, Vedalken Shackles. It seemed a bit slower because of the basic nonislands I play, so I tryed to include one copy of Umezawa's Jitte. I have mixed feelings about that equipment, sometimes had been kind slow.
Also, and going back two or three weeks, I'm not sure to include Lorescale Coatl. It grows when we have the Counterbalance plus the Sensei's Divining Top on board, but at this point we already almost won the game. Maybe Trinket Mage needs a place to stabilize before we set up the "wall"?

Proposed List:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
19 Lands

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Trygon Predator
2 Trinket Mage
2 Sower of Temptation
11 Creatures

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Snare
3 Daze
2 Ponder
2 Engineered Explosives
30 Spells

2 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Path to Exile
4 Meddling Mage
3 Hydroblast
15 Sideboard

[Tangle.Wire]

Back to the UGBw List, heres something without the confidants i wanted to discuss:

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker

3 Ponder
2 Spell Snare
3 Daze
4 Swords to plowshares
1 Krosan Grip
2 Vindicate
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Senseis divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance

20 Lands

Sideboard

2 Perish
4 Hydroblast
1 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
3 Duress
3 Tormods Crypt


I have some Slots i am not feeling happy for sure, I like the options of removal i get with 2 vindicate,explosives and the grip but i also liked the permanent threat like Trygon Predator gave me, Tombstalker is so good as u get faster on mirror matches while the tombstalker really stalks the counterbalance, survives Persish and Engineered explosivers-

I figured out that Vindicate isnt that bad on the Countertop Decks as CB, Daze, Force of will counter for free or even cheep ur able to tap out for threats your gonna drop so if i tap out for a trygon predator, sower of temptation, shackles, vindicate doesnt make much difference and Vindicate hits every target which makes it very usefull on this Deck imo.

-> Is it smart to play an academy ruins only for the engineered explosives in the Deck? :frown:

[Atog]

Back to the UGBw List, heres something without the confidants i wanted to discuss:

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker

3 Ponder
2 Spell Snare
3 Daze
4 Swords to plowshares
1 Krosan Grip
2 Vindicate
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Senseis divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance

20 Lands

Sideboard

2 Perish
4 Hydroblast
1 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
3 Duress
3 Tormods Crypt


I have some Slots i am not feeling happy for sure, I like the options of removal i get with 2 vindicate,explosives and the grip but i also liked the permanent threat like Trygon Predator gave me, Tombstalker is so good as u get faster on mirror matches while the tombstalker really stalks the counterbalance, survives Persish and Engineered explosivers-

I figured out that Vindicate isnt that bad on the Countertop Decks as CB, Daze, Force of will counter for free or even cheep ur able to tap out for threats your gonna drop so if i tap out for a trygon predator, sower of temptation, shackles, vindicate doesnt make much difference and Vindicate hits every target which makes it very usefull on this Deck imo.

-> Is it smart to play an academy ruins only for the engineered explosives in the Deck? :frown:

Only 2 snares? I would play 3 or maybe 4 even. That third would go on EE slot. Or tombstalker slot. How many ug-seas you play? Just for that tombstalker BB cost, you need to play 4-of. I would maybe cut 1x krosan grip too, because that vindicate hits same targets anyway, that split second ability hardly make a difference.

[Tangle.Wire]

Yes id like to play the 3rd Snare too, in fact for the control matchup if i can use 3 duress, 3 snares beside the rest of the counter of this Deck u get a nice lineup. I also dont really like the Grip, i also would like 1-2 trygon predator for this slot giving me vindicate and explosives for faster solutions while the predator permanently hits.

[GrAsH]

I don't think you need 4 Tundra with STP being your only white spells. Well, then again you're probably trying to maximize your Shackles. Do you think you'd drop one for another Island? Or possibly a Forest or Plains since you run some Heaths?

You sure have a point. But I think I'll cut Shackles for Jitte since Shackles is a bit slow and I have Sower and StP to deal with opposing Goyfs, Stalkers, whatever, and some kind of life gain is needed if things start to get worse (against Goyf Sligh, burn and Goblins, which is the core of my meta).

I think that in my case, cutting a Tundra and a Tropical Island for a Plains and a Forest is the way to go, due to the high presence of Wastelands in my meta (Stifle doesn't see much play, so my Vial Merfolks deck is wonderful with my mana denial package =D)

So the deck would look like this:

UGW CounterTop

Lands
1 Plains
3 Island
1 Forest
3 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island

Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
3 Lorescale Coatl
2 Sower of Temptation

Spells
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Spell Snare
4 Daze
1 Krosan Grip
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Umezawa's Jitte

About sideboard, Stifle and Chalice of the Void are almost obrigatory in a meta full of burn, Goyf Slighs, Goblins, ANT and Vial decks. People here love red, lol.

[Tangle.Wire]

Hi again!

After some intensiv trading i am able to give the Probasco list a try. I have a bigger Tournament next Weekend around here and would like to get some ideas until then.

I came up with this list:

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Lorescale Coatl

3 Ponder
4 Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Spell Snare
3 Fire//Ice
2 Firespout
4 Brainstorm
1 Krosan Grip
2 Engineered Explosives

3 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Island

Sideboard:

4 Pyroblast
2 Firespout
1 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle
2 Hydroblast
3 Relic of Progenitus

I know that the manabase is terrible right now but i have to get wooded foothills till the tournament to add the taiga and basics, so dont keep an eye on this point.

:eyebrow:

[chokin]

@ Grath + Johan - In my non Probasco list, I ended up running:

4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

It helped against Wastelands, Price of Progress, and the like. I literally made a PoP totally useless one game. Having the basics helped more than not having them (I had one hand I HAD to mulligan because it was beautiful but had no blue sources).

I kinda fell in love with the Probasco list. I'm not sure if I like the 2 Academy Ruins though. And also it gets a little land heavy sometimes. I do like how you almost always have Top. And Sower really is the sex.

As much as I've been promoting Coatl, I'm starting to have mixed feelings after trying out Probasco's list. And I was also a little hard on RWM, but I still don't think he's that great. I think that people in my area also fear the snake more than the rhino just because they've seen the snake get to be huge (insert penis jokes here). Both have advantages and disadvantages.

EDIT: Wanted to contribute something else.

@ TangleWire - I'd run the extra Delta over the 4th Volcanic Island and drop an Island for a Ponder. 18 Lands works great for me and I've never really had an issue getting to 3 lands. It looks like you have Tempo Thresh mashed with CBTop. I personally would swap a Snare for a Daze, but that's me. Unless you absolutely need that 3 mana for Spout, Grip and Coatl. If you need the Grip/Spout fast or want to rely more on Coatl the above suggestion should be ignored lol. Crypt is probably going to be better for you than Relic. Or run 1 Relic, 2 Crypt imo. If you're just trying to nuke opposing Goyfs, consider Pyroclasm over Relic (3R all together vs 4r/g or 3RG in one turn). It's debatable and really really depends on your meta. Like lots of Merfolk/Elves have 8 Champions. And Merfolk get Spell Snare which makes Spout a little more valuable.

[Tangle.Wire]

Hi guys, i dropped from a tournament with 0-1-4 today running this list:

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Lorescale Coatl
2 Sower of Temptation

3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
3 Fire/Ice
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Divining Top
4 Spell Snare
3 Daze

Sideboard:

3 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 pyroblast
2 Krosan grip
3 firespout


I just dont know what to do i always lose to this deck, i dont think that this list was that bad but i almost lost against a Battle of Wits deck ^^ which made me really feel unconfortable.

So whats the right way to build a URG deck?

[yankeedave]

I just dont know what to do i always lose to this deck, i dont think that this list was that bad but i almost lost against a Battle of Wits deck ^^ which made me really feel unconfortable.

So whats the right way to build a URG deck?

Well, at a glance, you have no Sensei's Divining Top, so you will struggle to counter stuff, if you are reliant on Brainstorm for your counter reveals.

Dave

[Tangle.Wire]

Well, at a glance, you have no Sensei's Divining Top, so you will struggle to counter stuff, if you are reliant on Brainstorm for your counter reveals.

Dave

I played 4 divining top or am i missunderstanding?

[yankeedave]

Sorry, didnt seem at the bottom of the list. My bad!

[Damnosus]

First off, I am not that big a fan of the UGR countertop, unless you are playing with the swans combo. I just feel like countertop needs more control elements that red cannot provide. You either need to go with white (my personal preference) for swords, maybe RWM and maybe pridemage, or you need to go with black as a 4th color for confidant, or go probasco list (which I definitely hope to try out in a tournament soon). Your red splash has stuck you in between tempo thresh and countertop thresh which doesn't allow you to fully abuse countertop.

Additionally, even though you do have spellsnares, I feel that your cmc 2 count is too low. Spellsnare is good, but it is still only a 1-for-1, whereas countertop is pretty much free and therefore is your main form of card advantage.

What were your matchups? A more detailed report might help with giving advice.

[kroelai]

Hi guys, i dropped from a tournament with 0-1-4 today running this list:

4 Divining Top


If you drawed 4 games, i guess you have to play quicker, and be faster with topping the top of your library.

[Nay123]

dudes, how will you optimize countertop in this meta?

1 CounterTop
1 Black/Green Rock
1 Burn
1 Naya Aggro
1 Blightning Aggro
1 Goblins
1 Dragon Stompy
1 Eva Green
1 Red/Green Beats

quite a small community of legacy players in my country. but still there are fun to play with. :P

[Mountain Man]

Aggro Meta? Play Combo!

But if you want to stick to CounterTop, play Life-Gain-Cards in your main deck (Rhox War Monk, Jitte) or splash Red for Pyroclasm/Firespout in your sideboard.

[Sage]

I've seen people mention it enough to warrent a discussion.

Spell Snare vs Daze in CB/top decks

My personal opinion (and what I ran for the Vestal Tournament recently-took 18th place-Ugwr below) was that the deck needed more 2cc spells, so I replaced the 3 Spell Snare's with 3 Daze's and put 2 Spell Snare's in the board. If Cb is the central part of the deck, then the cmc of the spells in the deck need to be optimized. For Example; If you have Cb/top out and one goyf on the table, then there are only 6 more 2cc spells in the deck. The odds of topping into one aren't that good. So, In my oppinion, Daze is better in a CB/top shell than Spell Snare IF you only have room for one or the other.

Pro's
Spell Snare - hardcounter (even late game), no tempo lost
Daze - FREE, allows more agressive play, protection from fast combo, increases 2cc count

Con's
Spell Snare - Not free, only counters 2cc, converted cost of 1
Daze - can be played arround (but still slows them down to do this), bad late game

I look forward everyone else's oppinions.

Sage

FYI - My list from the Tournament

Ugwr Countertop

cc-0=20
cc-1=16
cc-2=11
cc-3=7
cc-4=2
cc-5=4

creature [9]
2 Sower of Temptation
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Trinket Mage

instant [17]
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze - switched from s-snare to increase;
-2cc count for cb
-utillity counterspells
-ability to play more aggressively
2 Krosan Grip
4 Swords to Plowshares - spot removal is critical

sorcery [2]
2 Ponder

enchantment [4]
4 Counterbalance

artifact [9]
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Springleaf Drum - Won g2 against #2 list (Merfolk-tie)
(got me out of a wastland lock)
- probably had g3 if I had 5 more min (we looked at the top 5+ cards each)
2 Vedalken Shackles

land [19]
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island - Took 1 copy of A-Ruins out (prob bad idea)
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
60 cards

Sideboard:
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Divert - singlehandedly beat my round 8 op g2 (zoo)
(redirected bolt to a 3/3 Nacatl)
2 Hydroblast
3 Firespout
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Spell Snare
1 Tormod's Crypt
15 cards

[Misplayer]

@Sage - I did the same thing but I haven't tested my list yet. I'm playing the UGw build with Pridemage and Jitte so I can flip for 2 more reliably. I have 3 Daze main and 3 Spell Snare SB for the reasons you mentioned plus this allows you to go with Daze on the play and Spell Snare on the draw for games 2 and 3.

[Grillo]

I've been playing Der_imaginäre_Freund's list with much success.
I think the list is very effective at supporting counter-top and beating a wide variety of decks.

This is the list I'm playing:

// Lands
3 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [R] Tundra
2 [10E] Island (3)
1 [10E] Plains (3)
1 [B] Forest (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [DIS] Trygon Predator
2 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [LRW] Ponder
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle

This list has 18 1cc spells, 14 2cc spells and 5 3cc spells.
So it covers well the 1 and 2 cc slots. It may be a little weak at 3cc but I've found its adequate.
I like spell snare better than Daze. Daze is just too easy to play around. I still think Daze is a very good card. But since this list is very good at removing threats from the board, if you can reliably counter a couple of key spells (with spell snare) controlling the board will be pretty easy.

[Atog]

I've been playing Der_imaginäre_Freund's list with much success.
I think the list is very effective at supporting counter-top and beating a wide variety of decks.

This is the list I'm playing:

// Lands
3 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [R] Tundra
2 [10E] Island (3)
1 [10E] Plains (3)
1 [B] Forest (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [DIS] Trygon Predator
2 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [LRW] Ponder
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle

This list has 18 1cc spells, 14 2cc spells and 5 3cc spells.
So it covers well the 1 and 2 cc slots. It may be a little weak at 3cc but I've found its adequate.
I like spell snare better than Daze. Daze is just too easy to play around. I still think Daze is a very good card. But since this list is very good at removing threats from the board, if you can reliably counter a couple of key spells (with spell snare) controlling the board will be pretty easy.

How has those jittes working for you? Those just seems not be needed because you have pridemages for tarmowars. Of cource they can be usefull but just thinking..

[Citrus-God]

How has those jittes working for you? Those just seems not be needed because you have pridemages for tarmowars. Of cource they can be usefull but just thinking..

Who said you're using Jittes for Tarmo-wars? Jittes are efficient when dealing with decks like Merfolk, Goblins and Goyf Sligh/Zoo decks.

[Atog]

Who said you're using Jittes for Tarmo-wars? Jittes are efficient when dealing with decks like Merfolk, Goblins and Goyf Sligh/Zoo decks.

Nobody. But can't that be used for that? Then i must read that card wrong.. But there came answer what i was looking for.

[Grillo]

Who said you're using Jittes for Tarmo-wars? Jittes are efficient when dealing with decks like Merfolk, Goblins and Goyf Sligh/Zoo decks.

I think the Jittes are a bit slow in this deck, thats why I think 2 is the right number. But they are very useful when dealing with goblins and random/rogue/crappy decks. Counter-top, if assembled early, will shut down the majority of the tier 1 decks (including Merfolk and Slight/Zoo) on its own. Jitte is just that little extra help that's always welcome.

[ParkerLewis]

This thread needs more decklists.

Joke aside, there seriously is a ton more decklists than sustainable to in this thread (there are actually 20 decklists in the last 3 and a half pages). It's gotten up to the point where a huge number of posts are basically "Here is my decklist. Thoughts ?". With sometimes at least an explanation of possible peculiar choices.

Still, most probably the same post could be made without the decklist, just pointing out the possibility of playing said peculiar cards. the major difference would be being able to at least having a discussion revolving around those cards, instead of 90 % space and time spent reading decklists, saying it looks fine / weird / whatever, while also keeping people out of a larger picture (ie, one where the last posted decklist may not be the "general consensus", if such a thing exists), or ignoring 90 % of posts because who the hell wants to successively read twenty random decklists.

I don't know if I made my point clear, but I really don't feel like the thread is currently being productive (or let's say as productive as it should if you prefer), and I just wanted to point it out so that maybe this could change, either by a change in posting habits or maybe action of the mods, if enough people feel the same way.

[coraz86]

Agreed. Again, not to be derisive, but reading decklists without a decent tournament report or primer gets annoying even for a deck that you might already be familiar with. This is especially important because other people will notice things in your report and ask questions, which will remind you of (or inspire) things that may not have occurred to you.

I feel like I should be writing a primer/report after making such a statement, but I haven't had the time to play much Legacy lately. I would submit that Chrome Mox literally won the game for my opponent last time I played against a CounterTop deck. He went first; went Mox, land, CB, go; I tried to play a one-drop and he raw-dogged a Brainstorm with CB; he untapped and dropped a Top; I spent the next ten minutes watching him win.

The question, at that point, becomes whether you want to risk running Mox Diamond in a deck with only 19ish lands, as well as whether you're okay with throwing a card you well might end up needing to Chrome Mox, but that advantage is absurd enough that I wanted to throw it out there.

[chokin]

Can someone explain the appearance of Jitte in CBTop lately? I've just seen Jitte as an aggressive card (often techy too) that's used in a deck with a lot of creatures. Most CBTop lists run about 10 from what I understand. Are there better solutions for 4 mana?

With that said, I have an interesting meta full of assorted Lord Aggro decks (Elves, Soldiers, Merfolk, Master Affinity), burn decks, and jank but then I have to play against better players with better decks (Stax, Pro Survival, Welder Survival, Belcher, Goblins). What do you guys think of UGwr or UGr CBTop? The red is pretty much for Pyroclasm/Firespout. I know that white=control red=tempo usually but with such a strange combination of players, I need some help keeping aggro under control while being able to not lose much deck strength against the tougher decks. Or is there a strong enough UGr list (with CBTop) that has a fair chance to beat out some of the tougher decks while still being able to give the junky decks a pounding? Or should I just splash a little red and rock out a Clasm or Spout?

[deadlock]

I would submit that Chrome Mox literally won the game for my opponent last time I played against a CounterTop deck. He went first; went Mox, land, CB, go; I tried to play a one-drop and he raw-dogged a Brainstorm with CB; he untapped and dropped a Top; I spent the next ten minutes watching him win.

The question, at that point, becomes whether you want to risk running Mox Diamond in a deck with only 19ish lands, as well as whether you're okay with throwing a card you well might end up needing to Chrome Mox, but that advantage is absurd enough that I wanted to throw it out there.

Interesting that you mention Chrome Mox, i thought about the same after watching this video. Given its about Extended, but the same pricinciples apply here more or less, while keeping in mind that we have 4 additional carddisadvantage spells in FoW.

If we explore Chrome Mox some more, i want to discuss the following points:
- How many land and Moxens? I would say between 16-17 Land and 4 Moxen, because you want to see it in your opening hand.

-Splash colours (in the Mox version and in general). I really favor the three colour version for its consistency (be it Ugb or Ugw) over the power that the 4 colour version gives.
In the Mox version, i would go for 4 CB and 4 Confidant to negate the card disadvantage. The biggest problem of Ugb i see, is the removal suite. If we go this route, i suggest 2 Smother and 2 Ghastly Demise. Smother is solid, but may be a little bit clunky. Ghastly needs some testing, but i think that the GY gets filled fast enough to handle eg Goyf. Maybe the wrong call though.

Here the Vid for reference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxeVlod3GXI

I cant comment on Ugr CB/Top, always thought Jitte was a tool to support mentioned Aggro matchups and boost the cmc 2 count for Ugw.

[memnarch]

Can someone explain the appearance of Jitte in CBTop lately? I've just seen Jitte as an aggressive card (often techy too) that's used in a deck with a lot of creatures. Most CBTop lists run about 10 from what I understand. Are there better solutions for 4 mana?

With that said, I have an interesting meta full of assorted Lord Aggro decks (Elves, Soldiers, Merfolk, Master Affinity), burn decks, and jank but then I have to play against better players with better decks (Stax, Pro Survival, Welder Survival, Belcher, Goblins). What do you guys think of UGwr or UGr CBTop? The red is pretty much for Pyroclasm/Firespout. I know that white=control red=tempo usually but with such a strange combination of players, I need some help keeping aggro under control while being able to not lose much deck strength against the tougher decks. Or is there a strong enough UGr list (with CBTop) that has a fair chance to beat out some of the tougher decks while still being able to give the junky decks a pounding? Or should I just splash a little red and rock out a Clasm or Spout?

But even better then that is engineered plague against tribal decks. Then you get DC too. If you have affinity problems, then shattering spree is great for red though. Also Belcher AND Survival can be stoped with pithing needle. If you toss in trinket mage, or enlightened tutor, with engineered explosives and 1 pithing needle you would have a better chance of stoping peoples game plan game 1.

[Grillo]

This thread needs more decklists.

Joke aside, there seriously is a ton more decklists than sustainable to in this thread (there are actually 20 decklists in the last 3 and a half pages). It's gotten up to the point where a huge number of posts are basically "Here is my decklist. Thoughts ?". With sometimes at least an explanation of possible peculiar choices.


I must say I agree with you. Lists alone don't enrich this thread.
What I want to see more often are lists accompanied by it's tournament report.
We should put our lists to the test. I'll try to report some tournament in the next couple of weeks.

[miko]

Can someone explain the appearance of Jitte in CBTop lately? I've just seen Jitte as an aggressive card (often techy too) that's used in a deck with a lot of creatures. Most CBTop lists run about 10 from what I understand. Are there better solutions for 4 mana?

I tend to play jitte too. because in a highly aggro meta i like to have more removals...
to be honest: jitte is obligatory in a lot of metas, so recent lists are in my opinion tuned for a certain meta.
my metagame consists of a lot of fishy decks (merfolk, tempo thresh, team america, ur-fish, black death, etc.) and some combo-aggro versions (elves and soldiers), and things like ww, burn. jitte is not really obligatory against ta and tempo thresh but in the other cases resolving a jitte is gg.

adding red would be a nice idea, too. but im not to confident in the effectiveness of my manabase anymore. (i only play 17 lands - so its more or less thresh i play...) its not only firesprout/pyroclasm that makes red strong but also reb or pyroblast. in a meta consisting of a lot of u builds reb is just a bomb.

[coraz86]

Interesting that you mention Chrome Mox, i thought about the same after watching this video. Given its about Extended, but the same pricinciples apply here more or less, while keeping in mind that we have 4 additional carddisadvantage spells in FoW.

If we explore Chrome Mox some more, i want to discuss the following points:
- How many land and Moxens? I would say between 16-17 Land and 4 Moxen, because you want to see it in your opening hand.

-Splash colours (in the Mox version and in general). I really favor the three colour version for its consistency (be it Ugb or Ugw) over the power that the 4 colour version gives.
In the Mox version, i would go for 4 CB and 4 Confidant to negate the card disadvantage. The biggest problem of Ugb i see, is the removal suite. If we go this route, i suggest 2 Smother and 2 Ghastly Demise. Smother is solid, but may be a little bit clunky. Ghastly needs some testing, but i think that the GY gets filled fast enough to handle eg Goyf. Maybe the wrong call though.

I recall that the particular deck I was playing against was actually UBw; it ran white for StP and I think for some win condition and some sideboarding options. Dark Confidant is a house in that deck; all your cards are really efficient, plus you're running Tops anyway.
Given that you're running Top to keep it from killing you via Bob, I don't see why you couldn't have two Tombstalkers if you're going UBw, maybe three. You could also rock Serra Avenger, since you spend the first couple turns establishing tempo anyway and her drawback doesn't matter.
Smother vs. Ghastly Demise is an interesting question. A key issue for me is that Demise never kills Dreadnought, although I suppose if a CB deck lets Dreadnought hit the table it deserves to lose. Swords to Plowshares on a Dreadnought is ugly too. Then again, I feel better about Demise against Goblins, Merfolk, and Zoo due to its lower mana cost, and it's almost as good against Aggro Loam for the same reason (only worse because it doesn't kill Bob). It's also better against Dragon Stompy because their guys all cost four and five (except Magus, but you need to counter that anyway). It's much worse, obviously, in a black-heavy meta (Eva Green, most variants of Rock, Team America), and I think if you remove Loam's Bob Loam is manageable. Bonus points if you steal it and use it to beat them.
In the same vein, you might consider a couple Shriekmaw, either main or board; they counter Force of Will with CB on the table, they can terror things, and they have fear. Five mana might be a little awkward to have to hardcast though.
Do we want to think about maindecking a couple Threads of Disloyalty at that point? It takes many relevant threats, it's available turn two with a Mox (before the 2-cost problem gets to hit you), and it's pitchable to Force when it's not relevant. It seems like not the best option to me, but it also seems worth a shot. (With the lower land count, Shackles is out.)
I agree that three colors is better for consistency's sake, especially if you're cutting down lands to accommodate Moxen. Moxen make the deck thunderous enough to be worth not running Goyf.
Yes, I said it; I don't think this deck needs Goyf. Especially if you wind up with Jitte; Jitte plus active CounterTop is hard to fight through for most decks.

[BKclassic]

I played Next Level Brass card for card at the SCG:5K Boston to a 5-3 finish. Don't really remember names.

Round 1- Nassif-ish style Countertop
Game 1, I lose when I decide to Krosan Grip his top before he has Counterbalance, but he goes on to play another Top and Counterbalance and which I can't seem to answer. Board in a Krosan Grip.
Game 2, I win quickly with an early CB/top followed by Goyfs.
Game 3, I lose when I assume he is playing around Krosan Grip and go to Grip a Counterbalance after he tops at the end of my turn, but apparently I am over thinking things as he reveals Threads of Disloyalty to Counterbalance. This was match was probably winnable, but i have not played the deck that much.

Round 2- I am never sure what he is playing, but it appears to be Uwg Landstill with Stifle and Wastelands, Counterspell, Swords, Crucible, Planeswalkers, though I never see a Standstill.
Game 1, I get Countertop out. I really win when he goes to play Elspeth but I have a Brainstorm to get Sower on top of my library and eventually beat him down with it. Board in Pithing Needle.
Game 2, I get Countertop out, and when he has 5 mana out, he plays EE with sunburst 2 but a CMC 3, so I look with top but don't have a 3 drop, so I pop a fetchland and he stifles leaving him unable to use EE that turn. He doesn't do anything else and after the game I see that his only hate for Counterbalance was EE.

Round 3- GerryT with Uwg Countertop feat. Intuition and Loam action.
Hes obviously a better player then me, but my deck is clearly stronger.
Game 1, He gets a counterbalance out, but no top. I fearlessly charge through it and get a Counterbalance of my own out and a Top. At some point, I am left vulnerable as I cash in my top to counter a brainstorm for some reason. So I play a Sower that gets sworded and then another Sower that he is forced to concede to. Board in a Relic and Krosan Grip.
Game2, I remember administering beats with Goyf alot and then it getting sworded at some point finishing him off with Trinket Mage.

Round 4- Vintage guy borrowing ELD's Ugr Dreadstill.
Dreadstill is my usual go to deck, and so I am very familiar with its weaknesses and how to exploit them.
Game 1, he plays an early standstill but has no factory, leaving me free to play a bunch of lands and then Brainstorm during his EOT and make him discard 4 cards. I untap and get Countertop assembled and win from there.
Game 2, I think he gets Countertop assembled and then plays Dreadnaught. I think I Grip his top or something and then Ancient Grudge the Naught. This leaves me free to play CounterTop and Tarmogoyf on my turn, I win from there.

Round 5-Incinerator w/ Gwb deck with Vindicate, Deed, Maelstrom Pulse, Spiritmonger, Witness, Sakura Tribe Elder
Game 1, He thoughtseizes away a Krosan Grip which has me think he is playing Survival and then takes away Shackles then next turn while I play ponder and then assemble Countertop. He goes to Vindicate my Academy Ruins when I have only 3 mana, but I fortunately have a 3 drop to counter it. I think he manages to Deed my board at some point, but I cash in my top and follow it up with another Counterbalance. Not losing my Ruins proves to be crucial as I never see another Academy Ruins, and need to get back my discarded Shackles and play my other Shackles so that I can win by gaining control of both of his Spiritmongers.
Game 2, He goes land top, but misses his 2nd land drop for like 6 turns while I cheerfully play Countertop. He does extirpate Ponder and Brainstorm though. I also don't see a goyf and am forced to slowly beet him down with a single Sower of Temptation and eventually win in extra turns.

Round 6- Merfolk
Frustrating games.
Game 1, He playes an Aether Vial and I don't have force. I Grip it, so he follows it up with second and third Vials and also don't have the Spell Snare for a Standstill later, so I lose.
Game 2, He starts with Vial and has only Mutavault for mana. Somehow I don't have Force or Pithing Needle and I lose again when I don't have enough mana to play Firespout and pay for Cursecatcher.

Round 7- Dragonstompy
More frustrating games. In both of these games I am just not really able to do much. I think he starts game 1 with a Trinisphere that I force, I play top and then he plays a Magus of the Moon and my top reveals a whole bunch of lands coming. I think I screw up by playing a Sower too soon, but I need blockers for his Gathan Raiders and Magus of the Moon. He then goes on to play Rakdos Pit Dragon equipped with a Jitte that I don't have a Spell Snare for and I lose again.
Game 2, I can't remember any details, but I am pretty sure I draw a lot of lands while he swings with Dragons.

Round 8- RoddyVR w/ Meathooks
Game 1, He gets an Aether Vial that I don't find any answers to and rides it to victory.
Game 2+3, I don't really remember, but I know that when he doesn't manage to stick an Aether Vial, I don't have to hard a time winning with Countertop. During one of the Games he mulls to 5.

Some thoughts on the deck:
4 Counterbalance and 4 Top- This is old news, but I am use to Dreadstill which usually does not run the maximum of each card, but playing 4 of each is seriously good, and wins games. Drawing extra Counterbalances don't bother me it all because they do get destroyed occasionally.
Sower of Temptation- I love this card. Some people say it is a win more because when you need counterbalance to protect it and if you have Countertop assembled, you have already one. I don't think this is the case, especially in deck with a diverse Mana curve where some cards might slip through occassionally. This card ends the game like Phyrexian Dreadnought, but doesn't require all 8+ slots devoted to it.
Trinket Mage- I wasn't really thrilled with this card, it felt weak all day, but I love Pithing Needle and EE. I want to replace it with Vendillion Clique, but I that obviously makes the singleton EE and Needle much worse. Not sure what to do about that.
Lots of 3 drops- Having 7 3-drops is great for Counterbalance. Vindicate just doesn't kill Counterbalance against this deck.
Only 8 2 drops- This would be terrible in Dreadstill, but in this deck its fine. If its a creature just steal it. If its Counterbalance, just Grip it.
The mana base- I like lots of basics, though that didn't come up in this tourney too much. 22 lands seemed like too many though. I think I would as least cut an Island or an Academy Ruins for the 4th Ponder.

[deadlock]

Only 8 drops- This would be terrible in Dreadstill, but in this deck its fine. If its a creature just steal it. If its Counterbalance, just Grip it.

Very interesting that you mention this, for me it stood up as a design flaw from the first moment.
UG Counter Top has a hard time to push up its cmc 2 spells, beside the obvious 8, there are 2-3 Dazes and ... ? Maybe Jitte or even Counterspell?
I am still not convinced that 8 is enough, usually covering the cmc2 slot with enough spells is most important.

Concerning Trinket Mage, if you cut him, i would also cut the one-ofs in the maindeck. Personally i feel two is the right number for none Dreadstill decks.

If you test Clique let me know how it works, i have reserved two slots in my Ugb build for it, but dont know if its good enough.

Another question is how many maindeck slots should be devoted to removing CB once it lands for the opponent? Also how important is it?
I am thinking of situations were disruption doesnt help - eg both players emptied their hands and are more or less in topdeck mode and one gets a CB online.
If we compare a couple of archtypes (i only count to remove the first, therefore 3 Mage + 1 EE is four ways to remove it):
Nassif Ugwb: 3 (2 Trygon, 1 Grip)
NL Brass: 6 (3 Mage, 1 EE, 2 Grip)
SPOD Ugw: 7 (4 Pridemage, 2 Mage, 1 EE)

For almost any build i would start with two Trygon Predators / a couple of Pridemages in an Ugw build and if there is room 2 Mage + 1 EE.
Personally i wouldnt play Grip in the maindeck.

[Atog]

Have anyone played nassif's list in tournament lately? Just thinking that is that tuned too much for cb/top mirror, and could those trygons and grip replace example with locescale coatls.. i tested some games with those and sometimes i missed those predators. But those coatls can grow HUGE fast so they could be better choice. So should we concentrate with that list to g2/g3 with grips if we need them?

[blueneverfails]

Have anyone played nassif's list in tournament lately? Just thinking that is that tuned too much for cb/top mirror, and could those trygons and grip replace example with locescale coatls.. i tested some games with those and sometimes i missed those predators. But those coatls can grow HUGE fast so they could be better choice. So should we concentrate with that list to g2/g3 with grips if we need them?

Yes, I play a varient of nassif's list that I posted earlier....Ah here it is

Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [CHK] Island (3)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Tropical Island
3 [R] Tundra
2 [U] Underground Sea

Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
2 [ARB] Lorescale Coatl
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage

Spells
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [LRW] Ponder
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [SOA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 1 [WL] Gaea's Blessing
(what I played last night is one less goyf and 1 more e.e. cuz its in the mail, long story)

All I did was take nassif's list and add coatl's and pridemages, and tuned it to a tad bit more of my liking. I've played it twice now and the first tourny I went 3-1-1 and got top 4 for a split. then actually last night I went 4-0-1 then sadly lost in top 8, heyyyy I got some time ill throw out a quick tourny report.

Now I'm not very good at this soo gimme a little slack

First Match:ITF
First game: This one was akward, we both went down to 6, and he went aggro on me(which his ITF build is actually my version that I ran for 3 months, that I gave him) he dropped down 2 tarmogoyfs and and eternal witness to bring back counterspell to keep me off the board, it ended quickly.
Second game: I drop and early top and balance. he gets down a goyf. and we sit at a counter war for a bit( I was having bad luck on top) and eventually he ran out of a hand and I was about about 6, I dropped a sower and stole his goyf and with countertop rode it all the way.
Third game I get down counterbalance but no top, and with the luck of god shanked out 3 blind counterbalances out of his 4 spells played through the next 4 turns and I was able to get a goyf down and a qasali, he gets down a deed which I daze, he pays for it and only have 1 mana open.. he give me the sad face when I swing with a better goyf and then sac to stop the deed. He then sees the sad face and draws 3 lands in a row for the win.yay
1-0
Second match, Old old old old school thresh with goyf.This deck was litterally old school green blue threshold with wearbear, predict and everything with a throw in of goyfs.
first game, he goes fetchland into a wasteland, which I go WOAH WAIT A SEC and he goes oh didn't kno I couldnt get that...:eek: soo I correct him and we keep playing, he drops down a wearbear, which I let go, he then drops a mongoose which I counter, he drops another wearbear and a goyf(mind you he doesnt swing at all) and I drop a goyf and a qasali(the goyfs are only 3/4s and he has 2 wearbears that are 4/4. At this point he has like 5 cards in hand and I ahve 3 lands. He shows his noobish even more by not attacking and drawing and saying go. I do the same untill I get about 5 good cards and drop down a sower and a shackles, steal both wearbears and beat face.
Second game, he kept a no land hand and doesnt see a land for 4 turns and dies shortly after
2-0
third match: some sui black deck with priest of ghix and equipments and stuff
well first match he goes dark right preist of ghix, I daze the priest, I drop down counterbalance by turn 3 and he goes priest on turn 3, i say ok, he drops another one, and the hippy, I drop down explosives for 3 and say go, he drops down sword with dark rit and equips, I take 10 damage tot he face BAM, it put me down to 5, I blew explosives and dropped goyf. he plays a hippy for last card and says go, I play shackles and steal, he sees too many lands and I run with it.
Second game, he doesnt do a thing till turn 3 which I daze the priest. I play top, he then plays hippy, I play sower and take it, he tries to damnation I force, then I swing with his hippy to hit is last card, I then drop a counterbalance and win out.
3-0
fourth match I played against GWU natural order thresh. I really dont remember much about this match, other than he plays with knights of the reliquary, and I keep those off the board at all times and steal his goyfs he never had a creature to use natural order, I dont hink I killed him with any of my creatures at all.
4-0
Ben and I split for the last match, he was playing dredge
4-0-1
Playoffs, I play against that dude that did the report about coatl winter orb deck, well this was screwey, First game I lost it for myself, I have 4 islands in play and a shackles, he plays that knight that gets +1+1 for each land in your graveyard, and the ability to sac a land to get another one. well he has 1 land in play, he goes to use ability, and I thinking to myself Nah Is till got one mroe turn to wait till its too big, well to my dumbness he gets a fetch land and sacs it so i cant steal his creature. I start searchin like crazy for an answer, and see nothing, he drops another one and i lose cuz of a play mistake.
second game he mulls to 4 and I drop double goyf early and win
third game he mulls to 5 and I mull to 6, we both have poor hands and we both draw into cards, and I was able to get him down to 3, then he stablizes with that stupid knight and when he played it, it was bigger than my goyfs and he was able to remove my counterbalance and had 2 swords to kill my goyfs, and he finishes me off. sad face.

[Bardo]

Updated opening post with 1,300 words about Counter Top.

[Parcher]

I need to put up an open questions since maybe everyone I've been playing against is doing it wrong.

You are playing some Thresh varient in Game One of a match, and on the play, your opponent doesn't play a land, then RFG's a Putrid Imp to cast Unmask targeting themselves; would you Force of Will it if able?

The theory behind doing so from the Hatfields, Gearhart, etc. is that in this match you always stop their discard outlet if possible. So if they pitch a PImp without laying a land, it's extremely likely that Unmask is all thay have.

But they could be wrong?

[Serbitar]

I would abide by their logic to FoW. Why would Ichorid Unmask itself, if it has another outlet? They could/should just Unmask you then instead, to protect the other outlet and disrupt any plan you might have...

[chokin]

Maybe they have no outlet or lands so they're using their protection as an outlet?

That's the ONLY reason why I'd ever in a million years consider making myself discard vs control. The better solution is to mulligan I think. Or make them discard and hope to draw land.

[Tacosnape]

I would abide by their logic to FoW. Why would Ichorid Unmask itself, if it has another outlet? They could/should just Unmask you then instead, to protect the other outlet and disrupt any plan you might have...

While I would also Force, as there's a good chance this isn't a trick but is actually all they have, I disagree with your assessment. Ichorid has times where it -should- Unmask itself.

What if Ichorid has a hand of, say, Cephalid Coliseum, Breakthrough, Putrid Imp, Unmask, Golgari Grave-Troll, Deep Analysis, Narcomoeba?

Here Ichorid would absolutely lead with Unmasking itself against Countertop. Unmasking the opponent would clear the way for a non-dredging Breakthrough for 0 and a slow but not unwinnable start. Unmasking yourself either draws the Force and lets you STILL get the weak Breakthrough, or gets the Troll in the yard and lets you follow with the Breakthrough. If they don't have the Force, you made the right call hitting yourself. If they do have it and held it back on your Unmask, you still have a Troll in the yard.

That all said, the result is only very slightly worse in this case if you Forced the Unmask. So I'd Force the Unmask if it targeted them.

[Serbitar]

Point taken.

Though in the case you mention, draw/discard, 2nd turn Unmask them, Coliseum -> Breakthrough could be the better play for Ichorid (at least on the draw, as Parcher mentioned). [Though I'm by no means an Ichorid expert.]

[Parcher]

My point was this case when they are pitching their best discard outlet without playing a land to Unmask themselves, the highest probability play is for certain to Force that discard outlet. Their other possible plays are irrelevant since you wouldn't know them anyway.

[johanessen]

Anyone tryed Cataclysm?

We can play around 1 artifact (top) 1 enchant (cb) 1 creature (normally tarmagoyf) and one land. That spell crushes stax, enchantress, control and tribal decks. It's worth testing? I mean in the Ugw cb .

[Bardo]

Anyone tryed Cataclysm?

We can play around 1 artifact (top) 1 enchant (cb) 1 creature (normally tarmagoyf) and one land. That spell crushes stax, enchantress, control and tribal decks. It's worth testing? I mean in the Ugw cb .

The "keep 1 land" for a pseudo-control deck is sort of a deal-killer, unless the dude you kept was Dark Confidant. WW is the casting cost is also problematic. Seems risky, though there's not much of a problem running it on MWS for a few games.

[blueneverfails]

this post is for the ppl that are playing varients of nassif's list,

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [CHK] Island (3)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Tropical Island
3 [R] Tundra
2 [U] Underground Sea

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [ARB] Lorescale Coatl
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [CNF] Progenitus

// Spells
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [VI] Natural Order

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [SOA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 1 [WL] Gaea's Blessing

This is my new list, with mainly only a change in sideboard and am awkward change in main, the main only changed by 4 cards which I threw in natural order. Before I had 2 sowers and 2 ponders in the spot and I decided to throw this in, and have been very happy with it. Personally, I have found that sower, is too much work to keep from getting swords, and if you can't stop the swords, they can do some tricks to screw up the board advantage you got. And I never saw the ponders enough to consider them helpful. And with most of my creatures being green, its normally not a problem to use the card, and who doesn't like having progentius in play.

[johanessen]

Sac'ing good creature hurts. Revealing progenitus/No/Fow with confidant hurts.

[johanessen]

I'd probably swap the Threads for a couple of qasalis or trygons, since you already play sower

[Ch@os]

I would kick both Trinket Mage and Threads of Disloyalty.
Try another beatstick like Rhox War Monk or Lorescale Coatl or even Qasali Pridemage.
Or play a mix of all of them and also kick Sower of Temptation and the random Clique.

Are EE really needed with Firespout in the SB?

[Manhattan]

I would kick both Trinket Mage and Threads of Disloyalty.
Try another beatstick like Rhox War Monk or Lorescale Coatl or even Qasali Pridemage.
Or play a mix of all of them and also kick Sower of Temptation and the random Clique.

Are EE really needed with Firespout in the SB?

I am actually quite stunned by the obvious misperceptions of the Legacy-format this post reveals. However against my initial urge to just laugh and go on I think I'll give this topic a shot since you appear to be serious about it.

1) Trinket Mage is not a beatstick. At least not primarily. His foremost function is to fetch artifacts. In this deck that's top, EE and after boarding crypt, needle.

2) Rhox Warmonk is not a legacy beatstick. At least not to my knowledge. If you are looking for a tricolor legacycreature try thoctar or doran. (though they belong into completely different decks)

3) If you are going to advocate cutting cards like sower and threads, then atleast explain why.

4) EE and Firespout are not really the same card. Firespout is an answer to aggro (though not hugely popular) while EE is an allrounder and occasional 2for1. Plus it justifies Trinket Mage.

[Legacy]

@gamegeek2

I take out 2 EE leaving just the one with the trinket mages. You have enough creature removal with 4x swords, 2x sower, 2x threads. I would add 2x trygon predator and maybe take out the clique for a krosan grip.

also in your side board i think you should go with 2 blue blast instead of red blast. You have enough mirror hate, with 4 spell snare between sb and main, plus 3 krosan grip between sb and main, not to mention threads main deck.

Good luck!

[gamegeek2]

I am actually quite stunned by the obvious misperceptions of the Legacy-format this post reveals. However against my initial urge to just laugh and go on I think I'll give this topic a shot since you appear to be serious about it.

1) Trinket Mage is not a beatstick. At least not primarily. His foremost function is to fetch artifacts. In this deck that's top, EE and after boarding crypt, needle.

2) Rhox Warmonk is not a legacy beatstick. At least not to my knowledge. If you are looking for a tricolor legacycreature try thoctar or doran. (though they belong into completely different decks)

3) If you are going to advocate cutting cards like sower and threads, then atleast explain why.

4) EE and Firespout are not really the same card. Firespout is an answer to aggro (though not hugely popular) while EE is an allrounder and occasional 2for1. Plus it justifies Trinket Mage.

All of the above are true. War Monk in my opinion is somewhat of a joke, he's a worse beatstick than Lorescale and Goyf. His color requirements are also restrictive, making him easily shut off by Wasteland.

As for the Spell Snares, their main purpose is to hate out Suicide Black variants; Hymn to Tourach, Sinkhole, and Tarmogoyf all cost 2 mana, as do occasional Dark Confidants.

It may seem like a lot of removal, but as of recently there's been a lot of aggro in my meta. The EE also are an answer to Counterbalance, that's why I went with 3. While Grip is very good, it is fairly narrow as a MD card, and you can't afford dead cards against fast Aggro or Combo decks.

I chose the Clique over a Coatl because of the utility, and it breaks Goyf stalls very well.

The problem I have with Trygon Predator is that if your opponent has Counter/Top, you really can't afford to wait a turn to break it, and it's a creature-based answer, which is the easiest kind to deal with.

I considered blue blast, but I noted that with the exception of Burn, Firespout is simply better against decks that play red. Also, there's a lot of dead cards against Storm, I don't want to leave in creature removal and such.

The mirror hate replace couple Swords, which cost 1 mana.

[Anusien]

Trinket Mage is a great creature to have on defense. That said, you run him over Fabricate even though Fabricate can get Shackles is because it's not uncommon to attack with Trinket Mage. Sometimes you need more threats.

[Legacy]

I was wondering what other players do against goyf sligh.deck. You laugh at rhox warmonk but he is your best friend against this deck.

Here is a deck link for reference
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27748

I play UGW counter top and if i don't get a jitte or a rhox war monk it is gg. You don't always get top then counter balance by turn 2, even then 2 nactl beating you, then some rift bolt and fireblast just ends the game. Not to mention the wastelands they run, that just sets you back turns while they beat with early critters. I suggest you test against this build and see how you do. Decks that run firespout, you still have to draw 1 of the 3 you will run in sb, but they can easily just have a burn heavy hand instead of aggro with creatures.

My solution is 3 rhox warmonk and 2 jitte main board while force or swords their first critter to give you some breathing room, then hopefully land a jitte on a tarmogoyf that is at least a 3/4 or play a rhox warmonk. Then assemble counter top.

Also, how do you do against a deck with say 4 stifle and 4 waste land? You may say just play around stifle, but a smart opponent will always have the 1 blue open to stifle, always. Then waste the rest.

Thanks for your input.

[Ragnarok]

I made my list a more dynamic, I added a combo aspect. To deal with agressive aggro and mirror matches. Lately I've been playing with Grindstone and Painter, and I'm very positive about the results. It's also a good reason to play Trinket Mage. Once it's in play it works as a good chump-blocker. I also added one Academy Ruins to my mana base, to bring back engineered explosives, pithing needle, etc. I play UGr therefore I could add Pyroblast which is with Painter on the tabel a one mana vindicate and counterspell.

[Manhattan]

I was wondering what other players do against goyf sligh.deck. You laugh at rhox warmonk but he is your best friend against this deck.


Sometimes you just have to bite your tongue and accept a bad matchup. You can't beat everything in the format. Rhox Warmonk might be a good card against aggro with lots of burn but he's stupid against everything else. There's a difference between a card that's bad against some decks and a card that's bad against everything but some decks. Monk falls into the latter.

Of course if your meta is aggro-infested you might be onto something but then again maybe you'll be better off playing something else altogether.

[thefreakaccident]

Sometimes you just have to bite your tongue and accept a bad matchup. You can't beat everything in the format. Rhox Warmonk might be a good card against aggro with lots of burn but he's stupid against everything else. There's a difference between a card that's bad against some decks and a card that's bad against everything but some decks. Monk falls into the latter.

Of course if your meta is aggro-infested you might be onto something but then again maybe you'll be better off playing something else altogether.



With a well rounded list one can afford running a few slots dedicated to your bad matchups... Tourament experience and a good understanding of your surrounding meta allows good pilots to pull these kinds of things off:wink: ...

I will also take this opportunity to tell the community here that i am back for good whether you like it or not.:cool:

[Jak]

Sometimes you just have to bite your tongue and accept a bad matchup. You can't beat everything in the format. Rhox Warmonk might be a good card against aggro with lots of burn but he's stupid against everything else. There's a difference between a card that's bad against some decks and a card that's bad against everything but some decks. Monk falls into the latter.

Of course if your meta is aggro-infested you might be onto something but then again maybe you'll be better off playing something else altogether.

Wha...?

Can you explain why he is bad? Like he is 3cc which might be clunky , but then again, it helps Counterbalance. He is blue to pitch to force. He is out of burn range against Tempo Thresh or other decks running red for removal. He can come down and beat against combo putting you out of Tendrils range. He can block Mongeese, Nacatls, etc all day. I just don't see what a better card would be to run in its place since it does shore up aggro MUs.

Really all I am asking is for some more explanation.

[Ragnarok]

I think Rhox Warmonk, fills the same gap as worship does. It does not make you win the game, it only makes it harder for the opponnent to win the game. It's a worse creature then both Tarmogoyf and Coatl. In my previous post I suggested adding Servant/Grindstone to improve the aggro match-up. It is an instant win, instead of slowly gaining life or compensating with the life loss and after that doing what??? Besides they probably play more creatures then we do.

[thefreakaccident]

I think Rhox Warmonk, fills the same gap as worship does. It does not make you win the game, it only makes it harder for the opponnent to win the game. It's a worse creature then both Tarmogoyf and Coatl. In my previous post I suggested adding Servant/Grindstone to improve the aggro match-up. It is an instant win, instead of slowly gaining life or compensating with the life loss and after that doing what??? Besides they probably play more creatures then we do.



Nobody ever suggested cutting goyf for him... Coatl is good, but we don't really need something that fat to put aside of goyf unless he does something besides be huge... the snake does not do this

making it harder for your opponent to win is always a good thinf as long as you have effective means to kill your opponent otherwise... Three power can end a game quite handily if you've got enough disruption... Peoppe ran mongoose fOr years with its' 3/3 body. A 3/4 eats agro alive and the added bonus life means that he can race an average sized goyf almost everyday... Hopefully this has brought some clearity to the situation for you.

[Ragnarok]

Nobody ever suggested cutting goyf for him... Coatl is good, but we don't really need something that fat to put aside of goyf unless he does something besides be huge... the snake does not do this

making it harder for your opponent to win is always a good thinf as long as you have effective means to kill your opponent otherwise... Three power can end a game quite handily if you've got enough disruption... Peoppe ran mongoose fOr years with its' 3/3 body. A 3/4 eats agro alive and the added bonus life means that he can race an average sized goyf almost everyday... Hopefully this has brought some clearity to the situation for you.

I agree it is a good thing making it harder for your opponent, but that is not my point, why go through the trouble of making it harder if you can win in an instant. For example: Your opponent is playing Goblins or Zoo, at a certain point you probably will be outmatched then you have to come up with a winning plan. The problem at that moment is not your life total but the creatures at the other end of the table. How can Rhox change that situation?

Rhox is not big enough to race an average sized goyf, an average sized goyf will eat Rhox for breakfast. We play land, creatures, instants, artifacts, enchantments and sorcery's. It won't take long and goyf will be 4/5, and with Coatl in play you probably will be at an disadvantage.

[Jak]

I think Rhox Warmonk, fills the same gap as worship does. It does not make you win the game, it only makes it harder for the opponnent to win the game. It's a worse creature then both Tarmogoyf and Coatl. In my previous post I suggested adding Servant/Grindstone to improve the aggro match-up. It is an instant win, instead of slowly gaining life or compensating with the life loss and after that doing what??? Besides they probably play more creatures then we do.

Are you serious? You do know that Rhox is a creature, right? It can attack, therefore winning you the game.

Now, what aggro are you talking about? Zoo? Gaining life is important. One attack negates a Bolt or a Nacatl attack. Decks like Zoo need to win fast or they lose. Rhox War Monk at least slows them down so we can set up Counterbalance or start controlling the game. If he goes unanswered, he will win the game because he is bigger than all of their threats (with the exception of Goyf).

I really wish I could run 10 Tarmogoyfs, but sadly, I feel that is a losing strategy. Is saying a creature is "worse than Goyf" even a bad thing? Every creature is "worse than Goyf" at being an efficient beater.

[Serbitar]

By racing we mean: they swing with their 4/5 Goyf, we obviously don't block. We swing back with Warmonk, undoing 3 of the 4 damage, but dealing 3 ourselves. Thus, the guy with the Goyf can, ceteris paribus, not attack, because he will loose that game.

That said, I too find Warmonk quite clunky, but especially against decks like Zoo or GoyfSligh he really shines over other creatures (like coatl) that might be in his place instead. Coatl kills one of their guys each turn, so does Monk, but lifelink often ensures you can't get swarmed. Again, often there is no realistic attack the opponent can mount.

[lolosoon]

Rhox is not big enough to race an average sized goyf, an average sized goyf will eat Rhox for breakfast. We play land, creatures, instants, artifacts, enchantments and sorcery's. It won't take long and goyf will be 4/5, and with Coatl in play you probably will be at an disadvantage.
When facing a 4/5 Goyf attacking you, you win the race with RWM due to the life swing beeing in your favor.

You can even attack into a 4/5 Goyf if your RWM is exalted enough and build your life up.

And if they don't attack, you just sculpt your board and hand. You are not the beatdown vs Zoo and Sligh. The more you can keep their dudes at bay, the better.

So, yes, I do think that RWM is a better (2-3x)card to side in than a 2-cards combo that dies to the hate they already bring to fight your CB (Grip, Quasali mainly).

And don't say you can protect Painter or Grindstone with CB/Top engine.
Vs the decks mentioned above, an active CB/Top is GG, a combo finish would be overkill in this more-than-favorable situation.

[Jak]

Just to add...

The main attraction of Rhox is that he can't be Gripped. This is why people run him. Too many times, Counterbalance won't win you the game because the RG(w) decks will bring in enormous amounts of hate for it. Rhox shines because it can't be Gripped or Bolted. Adding an artifact based combo will just make it easier for them to stop you.

[jazzykat]

I have considered War Monk, and there is some success with him with German builds.

I also played in an aggroesque environment and eventually played NLP as some have suggested. The fact of the matter is, instead of not losing you can just win which is why war monk is Like a 65th card or something.

[Ch@os]

In an aggro meta i would play the monk.
Some japaneese dude played something like this:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27996
I think it is totally over the top, but in his random aggrometa it worked.

So as i mentioned the Monk as a legacy beatstick the page befor i was on the understanding that you will see Burn/Goyfsligh/Zoo, if this decks are not relevant in your meta forget the monk.

[lolosoon]

war monk is Like a 65th card or something.
QFT

I do believe that RWM are the 65th-68th slots of your 75 cards deck.

There is no real need to run it MD except if you have a good hint about your metagame.

[sauce]

In an aggro meta i would play the monk.
Some japaneese dude played something like this:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27996
I think it is totally over the top, but in his random aggrometa it worked.

So as i mentioned the Monk as a legacy beatstick the page befor i was on the understanding that you will see Burn/Goyfsligh/Zoo, if this decks are not relevant in your meta forget the monk.

that tournament's top8 looks funny.. type2 kithkin are in the top8 out of 95.. wtf?

[LostButSeeking]

that tournament's top8 looks funny.. type2 kithkin are in the top8 out of 95.. wtf?

Maybe Kithkin will allow WWeenies make a comeback? White's probably gotten more out of the last two years than any other color, what with aggro-friendly removal in Path, aggressive combo protection in Ethersworn Cannonist, Elspeth as a rockin' top o'the curve, not to mention the traditional threat of I-have-more-board-presence-than-you-Armageddon. Also, Honor of the Pure's pretty sexy.

I'm at work, and the filters won't let me see deckcheck, but I don't think it's entirely out of the realm of possibility . . .

[sauce]

Maybe Kithkin will allow WWeenies make a comeback? White's probably gotten more out of the last two years than any other color, what with aggro-friendly removal in Path, aggressive combo protection in Ethersworn Cannonist, Elspeth as a rockin' top o'the curve, not to mention the traditional threat of I-have-more-board-presence-than-you-Armageddon. Also, Honor of the Pure's pretty sexy.

I'm at work, and the filters won't let me see deckcheck, but I don't think it's entirely out of the realm of possibility . . .

it used 0 legacy tech, it had no aether vial, no fetchlands, it was just a type2 list.
those types of decks don't belong in a top8 of a 95 man legacy tournament.
but then again a deck w/ firespout main won. lol.

[HAVE HEART]

it used 0 legacy tech, it had no aether vial, no fetchlands, it was just a type2 list.
those types of decks don't belong in a top8 of a 95 man legacy tournament.
but then again a deck w/ firespout main won. lol.

Firespout wrecks Tribal and Zoo, but you should also look at who piloted the Kithkin list. He happens to be in the Magic: the Gathering Hall of Fame. Outplaying an opponent still counts for something.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsuyoshi_Fujita

[thefreakaccident]

In an aggro meta i would play the monk.
Some japaneese dude played something like this:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27996
I think it is totally over the top, but in his random aggrometa it worked.

So as i mentioned the Monk as a legacy beatstick the page befor i was on the understanding that you will see Burn/Goyfsligh/Zoo, if this decks are not relevant in your meta forget the monk.


War monk also has his advantages against any sort of agro deck...
As i said before for a secondary MD beater, shoring up all of our previous bad MUs is a good thing.

[Shriekmaw]

it used 0 legacy tech, it had no aether vial, no fetchlands, it was just a type2 list.
those types of decks don't belong in a top8 of a 95 man legacy tournament.
but then again a deck w/ firespout main won. lol.


I would not mock the deck that won the tournament b/c right now firespout is pretty amazing in Legacy. The deck was well build and after all, it was the japanese that started the whole counterbalance/top lock.

[sauce]

I would not mock the deck that won the tournament b/c right now firespout is pretty amazing in Legacy. The deck was well build and after all, it was the japanese that started the whole counterbalance/top lock.

yeah firespout is tech, but i never seen anyone run that shit main besides in type2.

[thefreakaccident]

I was asking a few people about what deck to build in the current meta (i had sold my collection, but wish to rebuild it a deck at a time).... I asked the few people I used to respect on this site for a few ideas for decks/lists...

This is the list that I got as the absolute best deck in the format from all of them:


lands//18
1 plains
1 forest
2 island
3 tundra
3 tropical island
4 windswept heath
4 flooded strand

creatures//13
4 qasili pridemage
4 tarmogoyf
3 rhox war monk
2 trinket mage

spells//29
4 swords to plowshares
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
3 spell snare
3 daze
4 sensei's divining top
4 counterbalance
1 engineered explosives
2 umezawa's jitte



sideboards//

Varied, but usually included a few silver bullet artifacts, grips/combo/control hate...



I played it and really liked it...

However, I did have one problem with it...

Trinket mage is not good in this list... at least preboard... and here's why:


You already run 4 tops... you rarely have to search for them... and you never EVER want more than two... this leaves just one card that is even useful to search for:

Engineered explosives... which is a solid option, but we usually have the usual obvious choice filled out: 2

We usually either have a goyf or counterbalance on board, therfore it is disadvantageous to blow it for two most of the time... there are no real threat cards at the 3cc range that we couldn't handle otherwise, and the card is really mana intensive in a deck that already has mana intensive cards (top/jitte)...

So... that leaves the card (trinket mage) as a worthless vanilla 2/2 most of the time preboard..

I'll admit, postboard searching for needle and relic had won me games... but they were few and far between... i.e. I would either have lost before I could tutor (ichorid), or they had already had the time to use the card (opposing tops, survival, recurring cards... etc.)...


So I cut the mage and the explosives out of the list leaving me with 3 open slots...

11 creatures was too low for jitte, so I knew I had to search for a creature to replace the mage... A creature that wasn't lackluster in the battlefield, and didn't give up our utility slot.

Mt obvious crit of choice was vendillion clique... not only was it a solid creature, but it is very good at surprising opponents with its' instant speed and its' built in ability and evasion...

This left the last slot to be filled...

I felt the deck didn't really need much since it already had tools against everything: priedmage- art/ench, swords/goyf/jitte- crits, life- monk/jitte...


So, I opted for ponder in that slot... so as to my list:


lands//18
1 plains
1 forest
2 island
3 tundra
3 tropical island
4 windswept heath
4 flooded strand

creatures//13
4 qasili pridemage
4 tarmogoyf
3 rhox war monk
2 vendillion clique

spells//29
4 swords to plowshares
4 force of will
3 spell snare
3 daze
4 brainstorm
1 ponder
4 sensei's divining top
4 counterbalance
2 umezawa's jitte


Very much the same deck... but it does have a shift in aggression... with the added draw to power through your deck, and the obvious boost having a 3/1 flier can have on our offensive abilities in the deck...


Anyways... I would like a testing partner if anyone would be interested, I would like to get the feel for it better... I have tested against zoo and landstill so far, but I need a good gauntlet against a good player... PM if interested.

[Seb]

I'm not sure I understand the bashing on the Japanese list (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27996). To me, it seems like a very good list in the current meta (Zoo gaining back in popularity to counter Merfolk dominance).

War Monk may not be the best creature ever, still, it goes hand in hand with Firespout. With your only creatures being Goyfs/RWM/Flyers, Firespout will often be one-sided Wraths of God. And Firespout deals with Mongoose, which can be a real pain if resolved early against Tempo Thresh.

And of course, a resolved Firespout is house vs. Merfolks.

The only thing I don't really like is Dazes, as I'm usually against Dazes in a deck without some LD plan. I would put 3 Spell snares and 1 other thing (maybe a Ponder, or 1 Grip).

Not sure it's better than Probasco's list, but I'm gonna try it for sure.

[thefreakaccident]

I'm not sure I understand the bashing on the Japanese list (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27996). To me, it seems like a very good list in the current meta (Zoo gaining back in popularity to counter Merfolk dominance).

War Monk may not be the best creature ever, still, it goes hand in hand with Firespout. With your only creatures being Goyfs/RWM/Flyers, Firespout will often be one-sided Wraths of God. And Firespout deals with Mongoose, which can be a real pain if resolved early against Tempo Thresh.

And of course, a resolved Firespout is house vs. Merfolks.

The only thing I don't really like is Dazes, as I'm usually against Dazes in a deck without some LD plan. I would put 3 Spell snares and 1 other thing (maybe a Ponder, or 1 Grip).

Not sure it's better than Probasco's list, but I'm gonna try it for sure.




I think you were talking to the other guys there... I didn't mention the japanese at all...

I have been kind of disappointed by dazes lately too... they're just as amazing as they used to be early game... but it seems like people run such low curves that once they hit more land they don't even have to worry about playing around it cuz they have enough lands to pay for it naturally...

This isn't the case against zoo and black agro-control, but against the mirror, they will hit those lands and wil not have to worry about daze...


Daze is also very bad against control IMO...

I love it against combo though... I will not cut it unless I can find a great replacement.

[Legacy]

@thefreakaccident
nice list, though i would up the land count. 18 land is not enough if you plan on running counter balance. Any deck with land denial via wasteland, stifle or both will cause you to stumble then run you over. Go for 20 land, or 19 land and at least 2 ponder.

@Seb
i agree with you man, that deck is pretty innovative with allowing firespout to be one sided. Though i was wondering wouldn't jitte just be better? (ie hits tarmogyf, stalker etc)

Question,
What are your game plans against landstill decks? I pack 2 back to basics and 2 gaddock teeg in sb to combat them or are you not worried about that deck?

[Taurelin]

I'm still addicted irrationally to the Probasco list (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23982) for its style and power.

The only thing that I found lacking was a reliable way to have green mana (especially in the face of Landstill, Staxx and Goblins). Sometimes I was so desperate that I went Trinket Mage -> Pithing Needle -> Wasteland, which is of course not an overwhelmingly effective play, but seemed necessary.

I came up with the solution of replacing one Island with a single Basic Forest. In order to find it, I replaced 2 fetchlands with Wooded Foothills, which still manage to get blue mana on the table in the form of Volcanics and Tropicals.

So all in all, the modified manabase looks like this:

// Lands
2 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [R] Tropical Island
2 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [R] Underground Sea
5 [IA] Island (2)
1 [PT] Forest (4)

In the testing so far it worked quite well. My question is: Do you think that 2 Foothills is the correct number? 3 seems too many, because you often want the Basic Islands first. But that's just my impression.

[Muradin]

I'd say if you got problems with finding the green mana just cut an academy ruins or the underground sea (seriously, who needs duress?) and add the fourth tropical island for it to give you better outs against wasteland. Furthermore, there are not a whole lot of green spells in the list, so I made the experience that simply dropping the Tropical Island and playing a goyf, Krosan Grip with it and having it wasted immediately is also not the badest thing.

Edit: I just have lost a 4 word pages long post about this deck. So short question: How do you use Sower of Temptation? It sucks for me either or always gets destroyed/ Is win more under Cb lock.

[Taurelin]

I'd say if you got problems with finding the green mana...

The problem was not finding it, but keeping it. Vs Landstill, for example, I got wastelocked. And in a Stax match I lost all 3 Tropicals, before I could K-Grip his Moat+Humility-lock.

[from Cairo]

I'm not sure I understand the bashing on the Japanese list (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27996). To me, it seems like a very good list in the current meta (Zoo gaining back in popularity to counter Merfolk dominance).

War Monk may not be the best creature ever, still, it goes hand in hand with Firespout. With your only creatures being Goyfs/RWM/Flyers, Firespout will often be one-sided Wraths of God. And Firespout deals with Mongoose, which can be a real pain if resolved early against Tempo Thresh.

And of course, a resolved Firespout is house vs. Merfolks.

The only thing I don't really like is Dazes, as I'm usually against Dazes in a deck without some LD plan. I would put 3 Spell snares and 1 other thing (maybe a Ponder, or 1 Grip).

Not sure it's better than Probasco's list, but I'm gonna try it for sure.

I really like the Japanese list.

It definitely has some trade offs compared to Probasco's, but if expecting a more agro meta rather than a mirror filled meta I like the trade offs. Notably things like dropping the later game Sowers and Shackles in exchange for earlier tools to help stabilize, Firespout and Swords to Plowshares. Also in the right meta with an abundance of Zoo and Merfolk I like the inclusion of Rhox War Monk over Trinket Mage.

Looking at Daze as a card, I can understand not being a huge fan of it, but in this list I like it. What makes it nice is that in addition to having turn 2 insurance if you're tapping out for Counterbalance or Tarmogoyf, you're going to be tapping out frequently on turn 3 for War Monk or Firespout. In alot of lists Daze is there to back up the turn 2 sorcery speed play, but with this list also having fundamental turn 3 sorcery speed plays, it's going to doubles the amount of use you can get out of the card. I like that Daze got the nod over Spell Snare here.

The card I'm feeling least is Trygon Predator. It's nice that it provides a MD answer to Artifacts and Enchantments, but I've never really liked it as a threat. In some lists it serves as an evasive body to carry Jitte, but Jitte isn't present in this 75 (I don't think it's needed, but I also feel like not having it makes a 2/3 Flyer that much less impressive). I'm not completely sold that Krosan Grip wouldn't be better.

[sauce]

in a real metagame/tournament setting, the trygon main is a beast.
in a small store metagame, trygon is a sb card unless everyone is running cbtops/staxx

[Koby]

The problem was not finding it, but keeping it. Vs Landstill, for example, I got wastelocked. And in a Stax match I lost all 3 Tropicals, before I could K-Grip his Moat+Humility-lock.

Sandbagging the green mana source is a good option in these types of matchups. Or boarding Sacred Ground to completely nullify such effects. It has the bonus of totally throwing a wrench into the works against Team America, among other hosts of LD.

[Citrus-God]

For UGW CounterTop, has anybody tested Natural Order in the sideboard? I've been thinking about building CounterTop again and this is the list I have so far


// Lands 18
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Island


// Creatures 14
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Quasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
3 Vendellion Clique


// Spells 28
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte


// Sideboard 15
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
1 Empyrial Archangel
3 Hydroblast
3 Path to Exile
3 Krosan Grip


I have a lot of Zoo hate, apparently. Against Zoo, I board in just about everything. Against Zoo, I'd say the basic plan is to slow them down and assemble CounterTop or cast Natural Order for Empyrial Angel. Against the mirror, I wont be boarding Natural Order in. I will, however, board in the Grips and extra S2P effects though. I'm thinking I would board out Ponders and Jittes against CounterTop mirror.

[Taurelin]

Sandbagging the green mana source is a good option in these types of matchups. Or boarding Sacred Ground to completely nullify such effects.


I appreciate your input.

However, I still would like to keep the rest of the original list. That means I neither want to drop Duress, nor add another color. The relevant question for me was merely about the right number of fetchlands. :rolleyes:

_____________

Let's make this an academic question:

Let's pretend I want to add one off-color basic (e.g. a Forest) in a deck (i.e. NLU) which has a lot of library manipulation (4 Top, 4 PS, 3 Ponder) and whose manabase contains 3 green duals and 2 red duals. To reliably find this basic if necessary, but without disturbing the regular flow of the rest of the deck:

How many non-blue Fetchlands (-> Wooded Foothills) should I include?

a) 0
b) 1
c) 2
d) 3
e) 4

Thx.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

:
[One of the best-looking UGw CounterTop lists ever...]
:


I have been playing UGr CounterTop for months as that's what i'll be playing at the UK nationals (the Legacy event, that is), but your list might just be one i would considering dismantling my UGr deck for.

I played UGw both with and without Natural Order + Progenitus and although i liked both i was never completely happy - but then, it never occurred to me to play Natural Order in the sideboard, what a brilliant idea!

And the sideboard plan vs Zoo and CounterTop sounds quite reasonable too.

Still four more hours at work and i can't wait to go back home and try this out, pfff!

[Koby]

Let's pretend I want to add one off-color basic (e.g. a Forest) in a deck (i.e. NLU) which has a lot of library manipulation (4 Top, 4 PS, 3 Ponder) and whose manabase contains 3 green duals and 2 red duals. To reliably find this basic if necessary, but without disturbing the regular flow of the rest of the deck:

How many non-blue Fetchlands (-> Wooded Foothills) should I include?

a) 0
b) 1
c) 2
d) 3
e) 4

Thx.

So looking at Probasco's list, the only green cards are K-Grips and Goyfs, while no red cards (just red mana for EE). Sideboard you have 5 one-time R mana cards, so you can survive if you just hold off on a fetch and get Volcanic in the face of Wasteland. I'd probably drop 2 Flodded Strand for 2 Wooded Foothills.

Really the beauty about C'Top decks is that you only need to play about 3 lands out at a time. When I play UGw C'Top I try to fetch basics ASAP, which means that I sometimes cut off blue completely in order to have a totally stable board for my beaters.

My metagame has gotten so infested with Wasteland decks that I now consider every nonbasic land as a Lotus Petal and play it accordingly.

[sauce]

i agree, fetching basics is not the worst vs an unknown opponent on turn 1 before you get to see waht they are playing.
last thing i want is to get blown out by wasteland.
if my opponent does not fetch t1 and leaves a strand/foothills/delta i know not to fetch either cuz they'll get their stifle on me.

[Jujuhawk]

yeah firespout is tech, but i never seen anyone run that shit main besides in type2.

And this is why the japanese are leagues ahead of americans.

EDIT: Also, kithkin is pretty entertaining but Fujita is a master so he could've preconned the tourney and won.

[Jak]

And this is why the japanese are leagues ahead of americans.

EDIT: Also, kithkin is pretty entertaining but Fujita is a master so he could've preconned the tourney and won.

Lol, I didn't know this was some big competition.

I like the list, I just would love to squeeze Shackles in there.

[Taurelin]

I'd probably drop 2 Flodded Strand for 2 Wooded Foothills.

That was my plan as well, and I must say that it has really been helpful so far.

Thanks for your confirmation!

[paK0]

I tryed the japanese List for some games and it seems like real fun to play, im still curious about the War Monk though. It seems good if it can hit early, but its a 3 drop, dont you wanna have mana open at that time to stabilize?

I mean, would it be the right play to go
T1: Top
T2: CB
T3: Monk?

You hit the curve, but let yourself open for another turn.

[MWest52117]

I tryed the japanese List for some games and it seems like real fun to play, im still curious about the War Monk though. It seems good if it can hit early, but its a 3 drop, dont you wanna have mana open at that time to stabilize?

I mean, would it be the right play to go
T1: Top
T2: CB
T3: Monk?

You hit the curve, but let yourself open for another turn.

Against :r: :g: :w: Zoo, I would be wary of tapping down on turn 3 unless you have a FoW to stop them from sneaking down a Qasali Pridemage and blowing the CB. I would much rather play Goyf on t3 in this situation, or hold mana up for a Swords and be able to keep CB/Top mana up against them.

[sauce]

Played my own super secret bant cbtop :)
Went 3-1 in Swiss, losing 2-0 to ATS Survival w/ FOWs/Tradewind riders..

Rd1 vs. ATS Survival, w/ tradewind riders, force of wills..
Game1 I got CB but can't find top, finally land a goyf which starts turning sideways for 3... he can't find his broken enchantment, but while at 6 life he finally gets it and I whiff on CB and he goes bananas w/ Sporefrog/Genesis lock when I cannot stop drawing lands. I scoop.
Game2 He gets a bananas draw after I double k-grip his survivals, he topdecks the 3rd one. Tradewind rider + Seedborn muse = loss for me.

0-1 (0-2)

Rd2 vs. LED Ichorid
Game1 I have a quick cbtop assembled and he keeps missing on his dredges. I finally see a Sower on top of my library w/ top but decide to steal his only Narcomeba since he only has that and 2 zombies in play. I have no stp in hand. I am holding daze which is useless as he has a City of Brass in play. I punt stupid hard as I should have kept my 4 drop on top to prevent his dread return which I figured would not be good enough since he only had 2 bridges and my board had untapped sower, narcomeba and rafiq and rhox war monk. He cabals me for .. daze and goes off for exact lethal with dread return.
Game2 I bring in uber hate, 2 pyroclasm, 3 relic, 1 crypt, 1 teeg.
I draw both crypt and relic in opening hand and after he lands t1 imp and discards a dredger, I make him rfg it w/ my relic. He has no other dredges, and my t2 goyf gets angry and he scoops.
Game3, see game2.

1-1 (2-3)

Rd3 vs Type2 (UW) Merfolk w/o vials, etc.
Game1 & Game2, CB & Top do it's thing and my goyf is bigger than all his little guys.
2-1 (4-3)

Rd4 vs Charbelcher
Game1 I keep a hand w/ fow + blue card but he goes t1 LED which I have to fow since I don't really want him to ramp out since I have no cb in hand.
t3 he goes off and I have another fow but its not enough as he has an uber hand and ETW for 12 dudes. t4 I play Rhox War Monk, take 11 and gain 3 going to 10. t5 I play another Rhox War Monk and then a Goyf and he scoops.
Game2 I bring in 2 pyroclasm, pithing needle and 1 teeg.
I keep a shaky hand of 4 lands, STP, fow and teeg and pray.
He does not go off t1, I draw a goyf, play my tundra and pass turn.
He does go for mega ramp on t2 which I have nothing to stop it with and I pray he just plays a belcher and wiffs but he plays a Magus of the moon... which I float white in response to, resolves and send him into the fields to plant some wheat. I go t3 teeg and he scoops.

3-1 (6-3)

Since we only had like 11 people, we cut to top4, I get paired up vs ATS Survival guy... sigh.

Game1 I roll him with my broken 2 mana enchantment and the best blue creature ever (Goyf)
Game2 I get stuck on 2 lands holding 2 k-grips in my hand and he rolls me eventually w/ tradewind riders.
Game3 He only resolves a bird of paradise and a seedborn muse which gets promptly sent farming at the end of his turn. Goyf and Vendillion clique turn sideways a few times and thats that.

4-1 (8-4)

We split finals as my opponent just wanted store cred and he scoops to me for record.
It would have been a good match as he was playing The Rock.


Here is the list:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk
2 Sower of Temptations
2 Vendillion Clique
1 Rafiq of the Many

4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

Sideboard I chose for this event:
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pyroclasm
2 Firespout
1 Pithing needle
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Compost (we have many pox/suiblack decks/epic vs ichorid)
1 Sacred Ground (we have many pox/suiblack decks)
3 Krosan Grip

[chokin]

That Japanese list is nice. Spout helps beat out double lord effects. It just sucks against Goblins because of Port and Waste. Pyroclasm is much better then. I like that Spout doesn't kill your Goyf or RWM and you can opt to not hit fliers if you want Trygon around. Zoo can use a burn spell to finish off your guys, but hopefully you have CBTop online to prevent this.

[Brizentine Empire]

I have been heavily testing the Japanese list, and I have to say that it is VERY good at improving bad MUs and staying even at your good MUs. Merfolk is normally bad for UGW thresh, but the firespout help keep the aggro style decks at bay while maintaining a more controlled pace with countertop. Goblins and zoo are two more tough Mus that are helped, and I think the most underrated card that this list plays is relic in the board. Generally thresh lists can't run Relic because it hurts 8 or more of their creatures; however, in this list, it only affects 4 of your ten creatures while greatly improving the mirror match and the dredge combo MU. I like Sower in the board, however, which wasn't run in the original list, because its a monster in the mirror and against other decks that rely on big beaters, such as TA.

[Brizentine Empire]

I also like Sower as a 4-caster for counterbalance lol

[chokin]

I have been heavily testing the Japanese list, and I have to say that it is VERY good at improving bad MUs and staying even at your good MUs. Merfolk is normally bad for UGW thresh, but the firespout help keep the aggro style decks at bay while maintaining a more controlled pace with countertop. Goblins and zoo are two more tough Mus that are helped, and I think the most underrated card that this list plays is relic in the board. Generally thresh lists can't run Relic because it hurts 8 or more of their creatures; however, in this list, it only affects 4 of your ten creatures while greatly improving the mirror match and the dredge combo MU. I like Sower in the board, however, which wasn't run in the original list, because its a monster in the mirror and against other decks that rely on big beaters, such as TA.

Yeah the Japanese list has CBTop, RWM and Firespout against Zoo maindecked, which is nuts. Spout > Clasm just because of all the Lord Tribal running rampant everywhere whether it's Merfolk, Elves or Goblins. I've been splashing red anyways for Spout in UGw because of the swarm decks. I was not happy with losing to Tribal.

[Cenarius]

I have been playing UGr CounterTop for months as that's what i'll be playing at the UK nationals (the Legacy event, that is), but your list might just be one i would considering dismantling my UGr deck for.

Could you post/send your decklist? I'm kinda curious.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Could you post/send your decklist? I'm kinda curious.

Sure. This is where i'm at right now and what i'll be playing at the UK nats tomorrow (last minute comments, suggestions and criticism are welcome although i'm not sure i'll get to see it before the tourney).

Maindeck:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
6 Island
1 Academy Ruins

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Trinket Mage
1 Sower of Temptation

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Fire/Ice

4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard:
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Firespout
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt

Some slots are flexible and i have been trying different maindeck configurations (like Krosan Grip, Firespout, two Jittes, etc).

EDIT: Tourney is over, i played one Krosan Grip on MD for one Fire/Ice; and 4 Lightning Bolts in the SB instead of one Grip and 3 BEB. I came 16th of 69 players. Will write a little report later.

[Ectoplasm]

Hiya, I've been tinkering with some CT lists and I came up with UGw, running 12 creatures, 8 cantrips and 4 tops but I was wondering, how good could rafiq be in a shell such as this?
For reference, the men I'm running are 4 goyfs, 3 pridemages, 3 coatls and 2 trinket mages.

Also, I'm sorry if this has been discussed to death but he just seems like a very cool guy, albeit a bit heavy on the manacurve.

[Cenarius]

Your list doesn't play Daze. Are u sure that is the way to go?

Your list also play 10 creatures, with only 4 real creatures (since Clique and Trinket Mage are no real threaths).
Does your metagame have little to no Krosan Grips in your metagame? Or do you just prefer Vedalken Shackles óver Sower of Temptation?
I also notice that u don't play either a Forest or a mountain (although a mountain is not really needed), what reason do you have for that?

Why do you play 20 lands and not 19 or 18?

A lot of questions, hopefully you can answer all of them.
I'm getting more and more convinced that either UGr Countertop or UGWr Countertop is the way to go with my metagame over here.
Firespout seems pretty awesome for dealing with Merfolk. I know many builds of Countertop since I play threshold a lot, for a long time now. Especially after I played/tested Tempo Threshold for a while now. Red convinces me more and more.

[Waikiki]

I would call clique a real threat since it flies over and kicks for 3.

[BrassMan]

In two recent tournaments, played my Grand Prix list with minor sideboard changes only (-3 duress, +3 StP). Finished X-2 and X-02/loss in top 8. Not the records I wanted, but bad enough to get me looking for another deck.

All the games I've played so far make me feel the list is still favorable over Lorescales and Pridemages, though I've only played against them, not with them. My losses were to white stax (which I'm comfortable having as a bad matchup, it's a pretty rare deck and often misbuilt/mispiloted) dredge (though I beat the same dredge list in two previous matches), and to merfolk, which I think the deck is fine, not amazing against, but I am definitely still trying to figure out the correct sideboard plan for merfolk (and would be willing to dedicated a slot or two specifically to the matchup if the card was strong enough)

[sauce]

After dropping 1 game to blood moon and 1 game to Crucible + Waste lock, I decided to add a Forest and a Plains to my mana base.
This also made me switch out my fetchlands.

Current mana base (20 lands):

2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
4 Flooded strand (Plains/Tundra/Island/Volcanic Island/Tropical Island)
1 Polluted delta (Tundra/Volcanic/Tropical/Island)
2 Windswept Heath (Tundra,Plains,Forest,Tropical)
3 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island

I am curious whether I should put in 1 Wooded Foothills for 1 Flooded strand just so I can get Volcanic/Forest easier?

[kabal]

In two recent tournaments, played my Grand Prix list with minor sideboard changes only (-3 duress, +3 StP).

What does your manabase look like now? Did you just swap the underground sea for tundra? What MUs do you bring in StP?

[sauce]

In two recent tournaments, played my Grand Prix list with minor sideboard changes only (-3 duress, +3 StP). Finished X-2 and X-02/loss in top 8. Not the records I wanted, but bad enough to get me looking for another deck.

All the games I've played so far make me feel the list is still favorable over Lorescales and Pridemages, though I've only played against them, not with them. My losses were to white stax (which I'm comfortable having as a bad matchup, it's a pretty rare deck and often misbuilt/mispiloted) dredge (though I beat the same dredge list in two previous matches), and to merfolk, which I think the deck is fine, not amazing against, but I am definitely still trying to figure out the correct sideboard plan for merfolk (and would be willing to dedicated a slot or two specifically to the matchup if the card was strong enough)

yeah white staxx is really terrible for threshold. i tried w/ 2 teegs + 1 sacred ground in the sb, and if they don't have a nutty t1 play and u get to t2 teeg on the play, then they are done (barring a lucky o-ring).
i lost to that deck 0-2 last saturday cuz of dustbowl/wasteland/crucible lock.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Your list doesn't play Daze. Are u sure that is the way to go?
No, i'm not sure, i'm never sure about those things but Spell Snare was excellent all day and there were very few situations where i would have preferred Daze instead. I'm to lazy to go and search but i remember seeing lists running both.


Your list also play 10 creatures, with only 4 real creatures (since Clique and Trinket Mage are no real threaths).
As Waikiki said, Clique is a real threat and it has won me some games. She flies and loves to carry a Jitte.


Does your metagame have little to no Krosan Grips in your metagame? Or do you just prefer Vedalken Shackles óver Sower of Temptation?
Not many decks run Grip main so Shackles will often be more resilient, it comes down one turn earlier and the turn you actually activate it you still have mana up for something else. Plus, if it gets destroyed, there's always Academy Ruins to get it back if needed (not that i have done this a lot but it's certainly there).

I have tested three Sowers but i kept drawing them way too early, that's why i went to just one. That said, a second Sower would have been good in some games.


I also notice that u don't play either a Forest or a mountain (although a mountain is not really needed), what reason do you have for that?
Delta and Strand can't fetch them and non-islands are not good with Shackles. Besides, green mana is often needed just once since, apart from Goyf and Grip, the rest of the deck can run on blue mana just fine (i believe this has been said somewhere in this thread).


Why do you play 20 lands and not 19 or 18?
It's a very resilient mana base - i think this is what impressed me the most from BrassMan's GP list (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23982), his deck did not automatically lose to Moon effects, Waste-locks etc. You'll rarely be short on islands for Shackles too. Yesterday i won a match against White Stax just thanks to the manabase - i didn't even bothered countering or destroying Trinisphere 'cause i had lands and most of them were safe and even resolved two Goyfs through his Wastelands. (Of course, as BrassMan said, the White Stax matchup is bad, but at least it isn't as unwinnable as it is for other CounterTop lists with lighter manabases. This is also true for the Dragon Stompy matchup.)


A lot of questions, hopefully you can answer all of them.
No worries mate, but bear in mind answers may contain nonsense :)

I absolutely love this deck but decks like Zoo and Merfolk are getting increasingly hard to beat (thus the 4 Lightning Bolt + 3 Firespout in the SB!)

[BrassMan]

What does your manabase look like now? Did you just swap the underground sea for tundra? What MUs do you bring in StP?

I dropped the sea and one tropical for the two tundra, I suppose you could drop an island instead of the trop, I'm not sure which is correct


i tried w/ 2 teegs + 1 sacred ground in the sb, and if they don't have a nutty t1 play and u get to t2 teeg on the play, then they are done (barring a lucky o-ring).

Teeg could be interesting now that I have tundras anyway. I've run it before against combo and loved it, though I don't know if larger metagames have enough stax to warrent the space they take up