[Deck] Dredge

[Parcher]

Ichorid is a Legacy deck based off the same card from Torment, and the Ravnica Block Dredge mechanic. It is distinguished from it's Vintage counterpart of the same name due to Legacy's lack of the powerhouse card Bazaar of Baghdad. Legacy Ichorid is also slightly different from the Extended Dredge decks due to both the availability of Lion's Eye Diamond, and it's dependence on the deck's namesake card. A lack of early disruption in Extended makes the combo more viable.

For those unfamiliar, the strategy of the deck to to quickly overwhelm the enemy with targeted discard combined a rush of Hasted 3/1 and 2/2 creatures. Where the strategic superiority of this plan lies, is not only in it's speed, but in the Ichorid's abuse of a resource that the majority of Legacy's decks have no way to disrupt; the graveyard.

The basic plan is to get a card with Dredge(from now on known as a 'Dredger') into the graveyard,, and to then use this facilitator to get the rest of your deck to follow as rapidly as possible. This allows the recursion of Ichorids, and the resultant Zombie tokens for beaters. Dread Return is a secondary plan of attack, used to Haste your attackers with Flame-Kin Zealot, continue Dredging with Cephalid Sage, or re-animate some hugely expensive monster. I'll get into more detail later.

The purpose of this article is to give lists myself and others have had success with, explanation of their card choices and omissions, a guide to sideboard options, and match-up analysis with typical side boarding to accompany.

To begin, I'd like to list a short history of the deck's progression. For those uninterested, and to save space, I'll post links instead of the actual lists.

Ichorid had it's first public success in it's current incarnation with Ernest Tuck's version from 2007 Legacy Champs at Gen Con:http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=10336

The next change was toward shoring up the manabase, losing Leyline of the Void, and adding creature removal: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=13448

Then came the adoption of Unmask as additional free disruption: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=17796

And finally, the addition of Firestorm and Eternal Witness: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19430 ;which has become the standard base for most winning lists at recent recorded major tournaments.

For a reference point, here is my most current list:

Creatures (25)

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Eternal Witness

Sorcery (15)

4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Unmask
2 Dread Return
2 Deep Analysis

Enchantments (4)

4 Bridge from Below

Instant (1)

1 Firestorm

Artifacts (4)

4 Lion's Eye Diamond

Land (11)

4 Gemstone Minne
3 City of Brass
3 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Undiscovered Paradise

Sideboard (15)

4 Greater Gargadon
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Firestorm
2 Wispmare
1 Unmask
1 Ancestor's Chosen

Ichorid is as much a Combo deck as anything, so every single card choice should be scrutinized. Keep in mind that switching one card can mess up the entire workings of some versions. I will try to explain reasoning for each as best I can below.

4 Golgari Grave-Troll/4 Stinkweed Imp/3 Golgari Thug: Some time ago, people much better at math than myself calculated that in a 60-card deck, the line for having the best chance of having a card in your opening seven without redundancy was at the number eleven. This is considered the minimum number of Dredgers that should be included, and any free space in your deck should seriously be thought toward more. I would estimate that 75% of opening hands not including a Dredger should be mulliganed. The Dredgers chosen are simply because they mill the highest number of cards, but please do not ignore their secondary applications. Grave-Troll can be re-animated to have a huge regenerating beat-stick. Thug can be an easily cast blocker who can either put a free Narcomoeba, or a needed Putrid Imp back on top of your deck. And Stinky can either fly in for extra damage, or block-and-kill almost any threat. The latter two also serve as Unmask and Ichorid fodder.

4 Putrid Imp: PImp, as the card is affectionally called, is the best discard engine available in this slot. It costs one, can discard an unlimited amount at instant speed, flys in for two damage a turn, and feeds Ichorid. The closest competitor for this slot, Tireless Tribe, is a better blocker, but this deck is all about offense. Tribe is also in a less compatible color for both Unmask and Ichorid. However, Tribe is an excellent addition if you feel you need more than four permanent creature discard outlets.

4 Narcomoeba: One of the cards that raised this deck from a simple Aggro deck that used the graveyard, to a true Combo threat. It's ability can be abused with Golgari Thug, as previously mentioned, and allows the use of a very early Dread Return with either a large or fortunate Dredge. Often can also be hard-cast, and fly in for damage. You always want four to maximize your chance of the early combo.

4 Ichorid: Last things first; always run four. Unlike other formats, not only is Legacy full of creature removal, it is plagued by Swords to Plowshares which is more far more relevant. Legacy is also a format of creature-based damage, so the higher number you have to attack with, the more often your attack will be lethal. Also, the greater number of Bridge tokens you will get, and the greater chance you will be able to continue a threat if your Dredge engine is disrupted. Also may be needed to feed themselves, or pitch to an Unmask. That said, they're still the keystone, and the best card in the deck.

1 Flame-Kin Zealot: Proof that it is always better to win now than later. While a never-ending stream of replacements have been suggested for FKZ, none match his elegance. He very simply is a full Time Walk in almost any situation where you can re-animate him. While other creatures may be better attackers, defenders, or cause heaps more disruption, it is indisputable that in most any situation in Game One when you can effectively Dread Return a creature, he will cause the most wins.

1 Eternal Witness: One of the more controversial choices. For the longest time, Cephalid Sage was the choice for this slot. The object being to Dredge any remaining library you have in order to complete the combo immediately. While perfect for that use, I feel for a singleton slot, that Sage lacks versatility. Here is a short list of actual in-tournament actions I've performed with Witness:

Retrieve Breakthrough to play with either a land or LED already in play.
Retrieve Coliseum to play with a land in play and vice-versa.
Retrieve Coliseum to play with an LED in play.
Retrieve LED to pay for DA.
Retrieve LED to pay for Ghostly Prison.
Retrieve LED when I had all visible Dredgers in hand, and a Sage could have done nothing.
Retrieve LED to pay for a Dread Return through a 3Sphere I knew would be played the following turn when I couldn't win that turn.
Retrieve PImp to fly in for the win.
Retrieve Unmask to force through a Dread Returns with no mana available.
Retrieve Chain, Firestorm, and Needle to either win, or seal a win in following turns.
Return Dread Return, GGT, and Stinkweed with an LED in play to be hardcast when the extra 2/1 body, or extra tokens from his sacrifice made the difference in the win.
Return Dread Return to be hardcast in a 40 minute game when I had four lands in play.
And of course, swung for the win.

4 Breakthrough: The single most powerful card in the deck; providing not only an incomparable amount of draw power for it's cost, but also a complete discard outlet. If successfully cast with a Dredger in the graveyard, a win is almost guaranteed. Running less that four in any case is insanity.

4 Cabal Therapy: I honestly don't think a better disruption spell could be made for this deck. Costs one? Check. Gets you extra creatures if you cast it again? Check. Black? Check. In conjunction with Unmask, can create openings that no deck in the format can recover from. Again, run four always.

3 Unmask: Now we get to more controversial selections. Most feel that Unmask is a sideboard card at best. I think the total opposite. Unmask is best on the play in Game Three, is often useless in Game Two, and can not only give invaluable information in Game One, but can combine with Cabal Therapy to strip your opponent's hand on the first turn. This is especially important post-board, when quick, targeted discard is needed against the Hate brought in. In a pinch, it can also serve as a discard outlet for yourself. This can be evil when combined with a first-turn Breakthrough. I think Geoff Smelski described the card best when he first saw it in Ichorid; "What the f**k?! It's a free Thoughtseize without life loss for these guys!". Though I like four in the main for maximum chance in my opening seven, I'm trying three now for access to a main deck Firestorm.

2 Dread Return: The minimum number, and three is probably optimal. I can't find room in this configuration at the moment though. In some cases, this becomes the most important card in the deck. Not only does it allow the early turn wins by bringing a Flame-Kin back to Haste your Zombie tokens for a lethal attack, it will allow a 19/19 Grave-Troll to swing in against decks with sweepers or swarm defense. Combined with Eternal Witness allows access to any card in the deck.

2 Deep Analysis: One of the weaker cards in this version, but it is needed to maintain a minimum number of draw spells. DA's strength in conjunction with LED should be obvious, but it isn't that hard to get two lands to pay the Flashback cost either. I only run two since with neither of the mentioned mana sources available, it's a dead card. Eternal Witness makes it far stronger since you can always return a land or LED to activate.

4 Bridge from Below: This is the card that put this deck over the top. I can't really say anything about it that anyone reading this shouldn't already know.

1 Firestorm: An experiment out of the sideboard. While the chances of drawing a singleton are infintessimal after the opening hands with Ichorid, Witness makes it quite accessable. I'll get more into uses in the SB description, but I want one main deck as answer to the Tribal decks that are gaining popularity.

4 Lion's Eye Diamond: The terminator line between current Legacy Ichorid decks. Some feel that in a format with decks running Relic of Progenitus main that discarding your entire hand is too risky. They may be correct. But there is no single card that as quickly, cheaply, and efficiently facilitates the entire goal of the Ichorid deck as this one. Basically, it speeds the decks up from a half to a full turn if dropped early. It serves as both free discard, and free mana; making relatively slow cards like Cephalid Coliseum and Deep Analysis active on Turn One. It can be used to pay for additional costs such as Daze, and to pay through inhibitors like Trinisphere, or Ghostly Prison. LED is also excellent counter-magic bait, and in conjunction with an opening Gemstone Mine, can cause a read like a Storm Combo deck. It's uses with Witness are detailed earlier, and cannot be discounted. While some may argue that the risks outweigh the gains with LED, no version without ir has put up one-twentieth the results that the versions running four have.

4 Gemstone/3 City/3 Coliseum/1 Undiscovered: Again, I run eleven lands for the optimal chance of having exactly one in my opener. Gemstone is the generically best 5-color land. The life loss from City of Brass is worth avoiding with one Undiscovered Paradise, but not enough of a danger to risk a second. Undiscovered's returning to hand can also help to force discard in a pinch. Unlike some, I only run three Coliseums. I have tried time and time again to run a fourth, and have never liked it. The broken options it gives along with a first turn 5C land+discard, or god help your opponent, an LED, have never outweighed it's inability to produce Black. If running twelve lands, I still wouldn't run a fourth, as I have tried this also with little success. Versions running more than twelve should almost always add the fourth though.

Before moving on to sideboard selections, I want to go over some commonly used cards that I have decided not to include in this list.

Careful Study: Weak. Seriously. I have run this card in every iteration of the deck, and in numbers from one to four. I've never been anything but dissapointed. Yes, it does function as both draw, and discard. Yes, it can dig for answers, especially post-board. Unfortunately, it does none of this well; in most cases not even adequately. In almost every situation, I would prefer a more powerful and/or cheaper spell that might be limited in it's variety of uses.

Akroma: Fast and evasive, but dies to most Legacy removal.

Woodfall Primus/Angel of Despair: These are good in the maindeck only. And only if you have an extra slot. Their utility doesn't make up for their lack of attack/defense capability in most cases though.

Empyrial Archangel: While she seems good, think of the realities of when she would be useful. Her attack capability is the worst of these options. And any attack from the enemy that would be worrisome enough to block and/or use her ability, will kill her anyway. On the other hand, it's highly doubtful that the opponent can do an extra 20+ damage and survive your conter-attack if you re-animate Ancestor's Chosen

Inkwell Leviathan: If you feel you need a big beater other than Grave-Troll, this is probably your best bet. The problem with this in theory is, if you expend a the needed resources to Dread Return him and your opponent can deal with him then you will likely lose.

Lotus Petal: I don't get this one. The deck can rarely even use more than one mana on Turn One anyway. Permanent mana sources are always better, even if using LED.

Brainstorm: I really tried to make this card viable. It boils down to two things that are as yet unsolveable. First, much like Careful Study, it encourages you to keep poor hands. And second, unlike Careful Study, it only has one mode of use; draw. The fact that it requires a discard outlet still makes it weaker than Breakthrough, which will at least discard your hand. Brainstorm tends to slow the deck down for this reason, and because it lends to a more conservative style of play.

And now, on to current sideboard choices and reasoning:

4 Greater Gargadon: Yeah, bizarre...I know. Some time ago, a discussion I had with the Hatfields and David Gearhart went deep into how truly weak a card Pithing Needle was in an aggressive deck. That realization, along with the recent melding of Relic of Progenitus with Tormod's Crypt as standard Ichorid hate led to my searching for an alternate answer. Literally, a stroll by the vendor's case while waiting for Jesse H. to finish Top, Fetch, Brainstorm, Top, etc, etc., gave me the lightbulb.

Gargadon costs one; easily accomplished. Gargadon sacrifices Creatures, Lands, and Artifacts, all expendable assets in this deck, to bring out a huge creature. Gargadon gives an additional Dread Return target. Most importantly, Gargadon allows sacrifice at instant speed. That is insane in this deck. "While still in Upkeep, Swords your Ichorid." Uh...no. I'll remove a counter from Gargadon to fizzle your Swords. Oh, and get two Zombies. Punk. "Waste your Coliseum." Nice try. Sac it to Gargadon, my turn? Swing for lots. "During your draw, after Bridges hit, sac Fanatic to kill your Ichorid." In response, get tokens, and here comes Big Red.

I know, none of this deals with Hate cards. Or can it? Not only can the instant speed of Gargadon's ability get maximum use in the face of a graveyard hoser, it can in some cases void it. Any combination of Putrid Imp and Golgari Thug makes an endlessly repeatable combo to where the enemy has virtually no good options. With PImp in play, you can recover from any grave-sweeper. With Thug in play, you can always return PImp to play by saccing Thug to Gargadon. If they can't kill PImp, you EOT sac Thug to return a Narcomoeba instead. Each of these cycles should also be gaining you Zombies. Board sweepers become irrelevant as well. If you have Thug and Narco, you get tokens. If you have Thug and PImp, you just continue Dredging the next turn. If you only have tokens, since they swept your board, and then they emptied your graveyard, well....they still have to deal with Big Red. He makes decisions for Aggro decks very difficult, and in conjunction with PImp and Thug, makes it impossible for control decks to win. Outside of Crypt and Relic, Jailer isn't really a threat compared to a resolved Gargadon.

I need to add though, that this power is not without cost. Needle does answer things other than Crypt/Relic. And Needle is a mindless card; once cast you can forget it until it is removed. Gargadon makes you think about every priority pass in every phase. Especially when a Crypt, or Deed is active on the table. The reason I chose it, is if played right, not only can Gargadon allow you to win through those cards, it places an unbelievable amount of pressure on your opponent not only to answer your graveyard and creatures on board, but also the 9/7 coming in at a moment's notice. No Crypt or Chalice can do this. Try it for yourself, and see what tricks you can find.

[Parcher]

4 Chain of Vapor: I have seen a disturbing trend of decks replacing these for less generic sideboard cards. While I normally agree with this theory with Ichorid, this card is the exception. A major problem with Games Two and Three, is that especially against Black decks, you will often not know what cards your opponent will bring in against you. This is a serious issue since the typical Ichorid Hate cards are able to single-handedly shut your plan down. If you choose incorrectly, you could lose before the game has even started. Chain of Vapor is your "catch-all". It can bounce Crypt, Jailer, and Leyline so you can continue your combo. It can also get more non-specific problems such a Elephant Grass, or Propaganda out of the way. This slot is the only ones in the deck's 75 that has such flexibility in application, and therefore I feel it should always remain.

3 Firestorm: I never cease to be amazed at how absolutely insane this card is in Ichorid. It's original inclusion was for a cheap answer to both Yixlid Jailer and Magus of the Moon, but it does so much more. The discard is a cost, so against permission decks, it foils their primary plan of stopping your discard outlets. It can also act as a devastating sweeper against swarm decks such as Goblins and Merfolk. Spot removal can often be needed against less common problems such as Goblin Sharpshooter or Platinum Angel. The other common use I've found is after a stall of creature attacks and damage dealt, going straight to the opponent's dome with a Firestorm as a finisher. Eternal Witness makes this easy even after Dredging your library away. The possibilities go on and on.

2 Wispmare: Even though it has currently fallen to the lowest general usage since it's release, Leyline of the Void is still the one card that if played pre-game, this deck cannot reasonably beat. For this I refuse to go below six cards available to remove it. I choose Wispmare as a supplement to Chain for a few reasons. It gets the nod over Ray of Revelation simply due to the fact that you often won't get the two mana needed for it's original cost. The Evoke ability is relevant if you have Bridges active, and you can re-animate Wispmare in a pinch. Also, if you have someone mad enough to include Leyline and Counterbalance in the same deck, his casting cost gives a better chance of resolving. Can also be useful against certain enchantments typically seen such as Propaganda, Engineered Plague, and Pernicious Deed. Not a strict neccessity, but I highly recommend them.

1 Unmask: Simply to supplement the three main deck since there's no more room.

1 Ancestor's Chosen: Everyone likes a "fattie", or a "finisher" in this slot. I prefer to win. Sadistic Hypnotist and Sundering Titan are far more disruptive. Empyrial Archangel is better defensively, and Inkwell Behemoth is better offensively. The problem is, the decks these are brought in against all have ways to either stop, or remove them. An edict effect, or someone just dropping lands after you 'Geddon them ruins your plan. Also, it is rare that any of these will be effecitive against Combo, or decks with direct damage. Ancestor's Chosen gets around all of this simply due to his nature and the nature of the deck. Not only is he a 4/4 First Striker, but unless your opponent has a Stifle effect, you are gaining 30+ life if he hits play. Doesn't matter what they have to remove him after that, few decks can outrace a life swing that big. It also puts you out of Burn and Tendrils damage range. Since he also comes in effectively as a replacement for Flame-Kin against the creature-based decks that can easily remove your Bridges, I think he is the overall most effecient card at this slot.

And the often used cards not in my current sideboard:

Pithing Needle: This is a big one. The two most prevelant cards brought in against Ichorid are Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus. This one card deals with both, but not at the same time. That is one of the reasons I have started to not use it. Not only are there some decks (specificallly ones with Trinket Mage) using both, but you really can't tell these days which one someone will bring in against you. I've even seen decks with Tarmogoyf side in Relic. Naming the wrong one with Needle can easily lead to a quick loss. Also, I never liked the fact that Needle is a purely defensive card. It's like saying, 'Please don't hurt me' when Ichorid should almost always be the bully. It's casting cost and versatility make it a genericaly useful card overall though.

Chalice of the Void: I like this one a bit more since it can give Combo decks, our hardest match, fits. The problem is that the primary reason for inclusion was against Crypt. That just isn't reason enough anymore since you might never see one. Since you might never see a Combo deck either, I can't reason keeping this one in.

Leyline of the Void: I never understood running this unless the field demanded it main deck. The only match where there is not a better answer is the mirror, and if that is a metagame concern you would be best off changing your deck choice. I also can't think of a single other match up where Ichorid needs graveyard hate.

Darkblast/Contagion: Darkblast is good since it acts as an extra Dredger, and can be cast twice a turn if needed. Functionally, it works almost as well as Firestorm that way. The problem is against Tribal decks with Lords in them. Darkblast just won't get there. Also less than useful against Magus of the Moon. Contagion is just inferior to both.

Ray of Revelation/Ancient Grudge: In this deck, costing two is reason enough to discount a card. Ray is specifically in this category since one of it's main purposes is removing Leyline of the Void. So the Flashback often will be irrelevant. Grudge is a bit more useful since while there are a smaller number of problematic Artifacts, you need to deal with the few that are played immediately. Dreadnought being the most prevelant. Grudge can also force the early use of a Relic or Crypt.

The most difficult obstacle to overcome when learning to play this deck is the situations and frequency with which you must mulligan. Not only are there specific needs for your opening hand, but they may change depending on your opponent, what game it is, and who is on the play. As a very general rule, there are four things you are looking for in your opening hand; Mana, Discard, Dredger, and Draw. Some cards count as both, but only in conjunction with others. I've found that in most cases if you don't have at least three of these four requirements that you must mulligan. If you have multiple draw spells, or are playing what you know is a good match/slow deck, this can vary a little. Some combinations such as LED+Colisuem, or LED+DA allow you to break this since Lion's Eye Diamond acts as Mana and Discard, but this is an exception. I can't stress enough how important it is to force yourself to mulligan hands without these needs, and to then learn when
you can risk breaking that rule.

Unfortunately with this deck, sample hands are less useful since lines of play with openers are usually obvious. I will however give some keepable sample hands, just as an example of what one might think was a mulligan.

Gemstone Mine
Cephalid Coliseum
Cephalid Coliseum
Breakthrough
Cabal Therapy
Ichorid
Bridge from Below

This hand breaks the cardinal rule of having no Dredger, but could be very good depending on if you know what your opponent is playing. I would blind open with Therapy on Force. Then cast Breakthrough for one on Turn two if you don't suspect Daze. Even if you don't have a Dredger for the first Colisuem, you should for the second.

Unmask
Cabal Therapy
Cabal Therapy
Ichorid
Stinkweed Imp
City of Brass
Golgari Grave-Troll

This hand has poor discard outlets and no draw, but is still keepable due to it's disruption. You open with Unmask on your opponent, then choose by what you see whether to Therapy you, or them that turn. You obviously do the opposite the following turn. If you know you are playing against a fast Aggro deck you likely will not keep this hand, since your Dredges might not be fast enough even with the early disruption. On the other hand, if this is post-board and you are on the play, many decks will keep weaker hands that have Hate in them. This hand will punish them hard for that gamble. Again, experience, judgement, and reading your opponent is critical.

City of Brass
Gemstone Mine
Deep Analysis
Bridge from Below
Breakthrough
Golgari Thug
Stinkweed Imp

This hand is the dreaded no discard(except technically Breakthrough) hand. It is highly effective in any case, since you can discard Turn Two(One on the draw) then cast Breakthrough. Against decks with countermagic, this is still effective since they cannot capitalize on the speed you lose without Breakthrough. Also if you Dredge a second Dredger, you can discard DA during your endstep, and likely can force it through with a Therapy by the following turn.

LED
Golgari Grave-Troll
Gemstone Mine
Putrid Imp
Unmask
Narcomoeba
Eternal Witness

Last one, and boy it's a doozy. Still hits three of the requirements, but no draw, and no disruption unless you want to lose your PImp. I'd only keep this against a Control deck since you can bait with the LED to cast PImp, and any Black spell gives you access to Unmask. This is too slow unless you are very lucky otherwise. If on the draw I would probably also keep regardless of whom I am playing against, since Breakthrough, DA, or Coliseum makes this hand a monster.

A few seemingly keepable hands that aren't might be:

LED
Cephalid Coliseum
Putrid Imp
Unmask
Dread Return
Ichorid
Firestorm

There are two problems. First is that you can't cast Firestorm or PImp using Coliseum. The second is that there are no Dredgers. So your only draw forces you to discard your hand, and you have no other decent discard. Even drawing a 5C Land may not save you if you don't get a Dredger. If you had a Gemstone or a Dredger you could keep this, but not as is.

City of Brass
Undiscovered Paradise
Putrid Imp
Stinkweed Imp
Stinkweed Imp
Bridge from Below
Deep Analysis

Blind, you can't run this. The problem is that you have only one discard spell. If they counter it, you will likely lose. They will be in control by the time you can EOT discard or hard-cast a Stinkweed, and likely won't care by then. And against an Aggro deck this isn't great either since it's pretty slow, and extremely slow if they destroy a land to void DA. If you know you are playing against a non-Blue deck with no land destruction, you could keep it.

Unmask
Cabal Therapy
Cabal Therapy
Gemstone Mine
Cephalid Coliseum
Narcomoeba
Ichorid

This last one is the hand that cost me 2008 Legacy Champs. I kept it Game Three against Dragon Stompy on the play. He had no Mountains, and I took both of his Red sources on Turn One. I then hardcast Therapy again Turn two to get both Pit-Dragons in his hand. I died nine turns later after even resolving a Breakthrough, never having seen a Dredger. Colisuem doesn't count as draw with this opening, and obviously no Dredger means I should have mulliganed. Getting over-excited about raping your opponent's hand in the round-of-eight is a bad thing.

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On to match-up analysis and sideboarding. With Ichorid the former is barely notable and the latter is probably more important than with any other deck. Ichorid is as rightly feared due to it's tremendous advantage in Game One against the greater portion of any Legacy field. This, combined with the fact that you won't know your opponent's deck for most of your first games makes pre-board matches less than important to write about. Instead, I'm going to go directly to sideboarding and strategy for both Games Two and Three. All will assume being on the draw Game Two and on the play Game Three just for expediency. Game Three sideboarding is from the original deck configuration, not from Game Two. Please remember that this is only a guide, and as such should be considered both malleable, and customizable to your own card selections and meta-game.

[Parcher]

Blue-Based Aggro-Control: This includes Threshold, Thrash, Dreadstill, Baseruption,and NLU but NOT Merfolk.

Game Two: +4 Gargadon, +4 Chain of Vapor, -3 Unmask, -3 LED, -2 DA

Unmask loses effectiveness when on the draw, and you will already know what they are playing. LED is too dangerous against Crypt/Relic in general, but I keep one to use with Witness if the opportunity presents. DA is weak without LED, and you probably won't need the speed boost it gives against Aggro-Control post-board. Sidenote: Never do the above suggested removal of 6 discard outlets without a comparable replacement against any Aggro or Combo deck. I only do so against Control due to the fact that they are slower, and that using your end step to discard is often viable against them.

These decks will bring in Crypt, Relic, and in some cases Yixlid Jailer. You want to have an answer for each, and Chain is the best since you often have time against these decks to bounce their Hate EOT. Chain can also get rid of the very dangerous Phyrexian Dreadnought. Do not use an LED or Breakthrough unless you are reasonably certain you can either win that turn, or put enough pressure on the board that losing your graveyard the next will be irrelevant. Firestorm is good against Jailer and is uncounterable discard, but I don't bring extras since it will rarely hit for more than three until it is too late. This could leave you with important cards stuck in hand. You are often best off following the classic DDD(Draw, Discard,Dredge) plan until you can exploit an opening.

These matches are also where Gargadon shines. I know it's a difficult concept to grasp without seeing it in action, but he makes them unloseable. He is the reason for the only time Gearhart threw his deck in frustration at someone during a tournament. To try and break down Gargadon's usage; your obvious goal is to play him turn one. From then on, any time a permanent would hit the graveyard, it gets sacrificed to Gargadon first. That's the easy part. Protecting your Ichorids from StP is also very important against Aggro-Control. Add to that the fact that you will almost always get Zombies from any sacrifice since these decks have no feasible way to remove your Bridges, and you can start to see where the domination begins. Then, since their Swords will sit in hand useless with Gargadon protecting, it becomes a simple matter to discard them before he comes into play.

Now comes the more difficult part; after they land their Crypt/Relic. What Gargadon does in this case is force their hand. Say you have a PImp, and Narcomoeba, and a Zombie token in play. You are recurring a single Ichorid from slow-Dredging, and have one Bridge in the graveyard. If they use Crypt, first, it will be easy to recover your graveyard since you have PImp, and haven't over-committed. Second, you can still sac Narcomoeba to get an additional token in response. So your opponent will still have two Zombies and PImp, and possibly Big Red coming at him next turn regardless of what you Dredge. But what if he has Pyroclasm(or the like)? You don't sac, you get the two tokens, and beat with those and the Ichorid. What if they have both Crypt, and a sweeper? Well, you should have aimed discard at their targeted removal in this case so you can sac everything to Gargadon, and he should swing for the win. Keep in mind it should only get this bad if they have some combination of Brainstorm and Top to protect their hand.

As mentioned before, if you can hardcast Thug and PImp with Gargadon on the table, it is impossible for them to win. You will recurse your discard outlet anytime they atempt to remove it, and on turns they don't you can get another free Narcomoeba. Since these decks can't kill their own creatures, and they are all bigger than yours, your Bridges will always stay active. And even a full board sweeper only gains you Zombies, you replace a Narcomoeba, then Dredge back Thug and cast him again. Even a Relic does nothing since you can always save an extra Dredger in hand, and recurse PImp with Thug.

Game Three: +1 Unmask, +4 Chain of Vapor, -2 LED, -1 DA, -1 Firestorm, -1 Ichorid

This plan is assuming you see nothing more threatening the Crypt/Relic or Jailer in Game Two, and you are playing first. The eight turn-one discard spells give you a very good chance of removing any hate before they can cast it. If not, you still have 4 PImp and 4 Chain to either play around it, or bounce it. If they have the Force of Will in addition to the Crypt, you can only hope that they didn't get anything else decent in that hand. Your plan otherwise, is to check for hate, and combo off as soon as possible. This is one of the games where skill with the deck actually is very important, since you can't overload the deck with anti-hate cards and still keep enough of the engine intact to hope for an early combo.

Non-Black Aggro: This includes Goblins, Elves, Affinity, Dragon Stompy, Zoo, Death and Taxes, and, Burn.

Game Two: +4 Firestorm, +1 Ancestor's Chosen, +4 Gargadon, -3 Unmask, -2 DA, -1 FKZ, -3 LED

These again are decks that will bring in Crypt and/or Relic. Unfortunately for them, they have no way to counter, or discard your few important spells. Your main plan is still to wait until a turn you can Dredge a large amount without fear of Crypt, but it is less likely against true Aggro since they have a much faster clock. Firestorm is an absolute beating against these, since if done for three or more it gurantees a board sweep. It also lets you wait until EOT to see if they will lay a Crypt. These matches often become a damage race, and Firestorm will help you win those, especially if you can Witness one in the late game when your hand will likely be full.

If they open with a Crypt/Relic, you have to be a bit more cagey. Greater Gargadon help with this situation for multiple reasons. First, you will have to Dredge to some degree to force them to blow their Hate card. Gargadon will allow you to fully exploit this since these are decks used to never allowing Bridge tokens. With all of your creatures now leaving play at cost/sacrifice speed, you'll at least get tokens once, and they still lose their guy. These decks also have virtually no way of dealing with a resolved Gargadon. Always remember to stack damage then sac in every combat, and for every land they destroy. Even superflous LEDs can bring him in at instant speed. With Gargadon you do get a few better overall options, but he is not as strong here as against control. One thing I have tried is bringing in a Sutured Ghoul along with the 4 Gargadons to re-animate. His Trample and power in those cases made him a guaranteed win, but there were times I lost
before he could attack.

This is why I have stuck with Ancestor's Chosen. The Zealot win will rarely happen against Aggro since not only can they easily kill their own creatures to remove Bridges, they can also kill your Ichorids and Narcomoebas before your main phase. It isn't that difficult through a comination of those three, and possible hardcast guys, to get enough creatures into play to Dread Return at least once. Chosen is the best target in this case since not only is he a semi-large First Striker, but you really don't have to worry about blocking once he hits. True story; I once beat a Burn deck with 60 life remaining(just to piss him off).

Allow me to give a quick example of an actual game for reference:

I'm playing in Game Three against Goblins. He's Crypted me once, and I have just started to recover after going back and forth for a few turns, but hes is pretty drained as well. He has a Matron, Ringleader, and Piledriver in play and is tapped out. I bring back my only Ichorid, and Dredge a single Bridge. I then attack, and he blocks with Matron. With damage on the stack, I Firestorm for all four remaining cards in my hand targeting Piledriver, Ringleader, Ichorid and my opponent. He loses his whole board and takes four while I lose my Bridge, and get a token to attack along with an Ichorid next turn unless he top decks a Crypt. He doesn't

Game Three: +1 Unmask, +3 Firestorm, +1 Ancestor's Chosen, -1 FKZ, -1 Eternal Witness, -2 DA, -1 LED

Again, assuming you are on the play, you want to maximize your chance of discarding any Hate and/or comboing out as early as possible. You have to be more careful on the play with this plan though. If you open with land, pass with the intention of an EOT Firestorm, they can easily hose you with their play of Waste your land, and after you Firestorm for two in response, Crypt you. If they play Relic instead, obviously this is not an option. If they play Wasteland and you suspect this, only keep a hand with LED and/or PImp to insure a discard outlet. Therapy also gains strength on the play in Game Three since you can more safely make a blind name on turn one. These decks don't have access to draw or filtering, so it's worth the gamble that they won't top deck their hate if the coast looks clear. You also can't afford to sandbag a Firestorm Game Three since they will be expecting it and play more conservatively. This is extremely relevant against Afinity and Burn, who can beat you without actual combat damage. Affinity is one of the most difficult match-ups for Ichorid, so unless you suspect them baiting for Crypt, take out their threats as soon as you can. It will often leave their more expensive creatures stranded in their hand, or punish a creature-light hand. I've had situations when they expected to win with Plating and Crypt, but I first-turn Therapied their Crypt, killed their first two creatures with Firestorm, and left them were stuck with an uncastable guy and some useless equipment.

Black-based Aggro: This includes Suicide Black, Eva Green, RGB Survival Advantage, Aggro Loam, and Aggro Rock.

Game Two: +4 Chain of Vapor, +2 Wispmare +1 Firestorm, -3 Unmask, -2 Putrid Imp, -1 LED, -1 DA

These decks require a very different game plan than the previous for two specific reasons, Leyline and discard. Leyline of the Void is a Hate card that you can't discard before they can play it, and you can practically never win with it in play. You have to carefully evaluate your opening hand on the draw in Game Two. You must expect that they will open with discard(except most Aggro Loam versions), so a hand with a single discard outlet probably only can be risked if it's a first-turn win, or if it is generally good, with a way to remove Leyline. The deck still has 15 discard outlets post-board, so it's not a huge problem. If they do open with Leyline, and follow with a Thoughtseize though, you're in deep trouble.

On the other hand, you can go "all-in" with a Breakthrough or LED with impunity since they have no way to punish it. This is why the majority of these enablers remain in. If they don't land the pre-game Leyline, you should probably destroy them. You can afford to lose some PImps since Firestorm replaces them as discard, and again, they can't punish you for pitching your hand. Firestorm is great against the weenies of Sui and Survival, and can even kill Tombstalker if they overextend. Leyline also easily makes Tarmogoyf within Firestorm range.

Game Three: See below.

If they run Leyline, then your sideboard plan doesn't change. However, these decks still have the capability to side in Jailer, Crypt, Engineered, Plague, etc. instead or in addition. In this case, alter your sideboard choices more toward the similar plans listed for these cards earlier. Plague should not even be an issue unless they have time to land multiples. Wispmare alone should be enough insurance against this.

Storm Combo: Tendrils of Agony based.

Games Two and Three: +1 Ancestor's Chosen, +1 Unmask, +1 Firestorm, -1 Ichorid, -2 Putrid Imp

Obviously you want to outrace them if possible, and the additional Unmask is there for extra disruption as well as an extra hope of the first-turn Breakthrough. Chosen is in addition to the other two DR targets if you can partially go off, but not enough to win that turn. The life gain will put you out of Tendrils range for some time. Discard will not liely be needed over multiple turns, and it is rare that PImp will have time to attack for significant damage. So having the 2 Firestorms not only gives you a chance of a burn finish from attacking then Witnessing it back, but you can punish a greedy Combo player with an extra 2-3 points if in hand. Neither deck really sides in much for the other, so just be certain to only keep very fast or highly disruptive hands.

Merfolk: Uhhhhh.....Merfolk?

Game Two: +3 Firestorm, +4 Chain of Vapor, +1 Ancestor's Chosen, -1 Unmask, -4 LED, -2 DA, -1 FKZ

Merfolk runs a set of Relics, and has countermagic, so LED is a generally bad idea. On the other hand, unless they are desperate enough to board in Hydroblast, the only way they have to stop Firestorm is Force and maybe Daze. Your discard should easily handle that. And boy, does Firestorm ever wreck Merfolk. Their reliance on Lords makes even casting for three absolutely devastating. And the creatures they run are small enough that they can't expect to race you unless they overextend into it. Unfortunately sometimes, you have to play into a Relic with Firestorm just to slow them down. Don't hesitate to do it, but look for the most opportune moment.

Chain can go in for many reasons, but the best one is that Relic is slow, and if you can get Chain active in the first three turns, you will likely be able to bounce it unhindered. Late game they still have to watch for this, but are more apt to have relevant disruption. Chain can always bounce a Lord or Wakethrasher in a pinch. If you are in a sutation where you can re-animate Ichorids and let them die each turn just to get tokens, and your opponent is stupid enough to try and save Cursecatcher to get rid of Bridges, DON'T CAST ANYTHING. They'll never outrace that unless they draw a Relic. And unlike similar decks, Merfolk has virtually no deck manipulation.

Game Three: +1 Unmask, +2 Firestorm, +3 Chain, -1 Dread Return, -2 LED, -2 DA, -1 Eternal Witness,

Here's where things get interesting. In addition to the Relics, Merfolk can bring in some combination of Hydroblast, Jitte, and/or Echoing Truth. Normally I'd lose the Chains here for Gargadon. But you have to be prepared to deal with multiple problematic cards. So you can discard the early Relic, and still have Chain to deal with a Jitte later. Echoing Truth you can easily play around, or discard if you know it's coming. If they Force your early discard, you have to assume that they are protecting a Relic. Plan accordingly.

I think that's all for now folks. I try and answer questions as best as I can if there are any. Thanks for reading, and best of luck!

[kicks_422]

Awesome primer.

Greater Gargadon... Wow. That's pretty darn cool. I'm still trying to wrap my head around dropping Needles, and thinking of the timing required to combat Crypt/Relic with Gargs instead of Needles - but maybe I'll understand it more in due time. Maybe with match-up analysis, you could tell us how to use Gargs effectively in real game situations?

[Bahamuth]

I was really waiting for this, and it's written fantastically. Thank you. I'm looking forward to the matchup analysis.

I find it hard to see how Gargadon actually funtions as an answer against graveyard hate. However big it may be, I'd think it's dead at times, especially when your opponent uses graveyard hate, and you have no outs anymore. Doesn't it simply walk into StP too often?

[Parcher]

Bumped for updates.

[Kensai]

Really nice primer, I enjoyed reading it a lot. I was thinking of switching to the non LED version of Ichorid, but might do otherwise now!

[ebbitten]

:( This means that I'm going to have to start considering Ichorid a part of my metagame again.

In all seriousness this was an amazingly written primer, the sideboard options were probably the most helpful for me.

[Ozymandias]

The reason I chose it, is if played right, not only can Gargadon allow you to win through those cards, if places an unbelievable amount of pressure on your opponent not only to answer your graveyard and creatures on board, but also the 9/11 coming in at a moment's notice. No Crypt or Chalice can do this. Try it for yourself, and see what tricks you can find.

I'm going to assume the "9/11" thing is just a Freudian slip, and not just in tremendously poor taste. Still, please change it.

[Berzerked]

I lol'ed. But seriously, it's not like 9/11 isn't a real date that didn't exist before or outside the context of what happened. I mean, for all we know it could be his birthday. Just because your American (and so am I), doesn't mean you have to get all hyped up whenever that combination of numbers comes up.
But, ya, it should be changed because it's incorrect.

[Muradin]

While I am certainly convinced that Gargadon is cool and quite good at what you want it to do I still think that Needle is better. It doesn't let you play arround their hate, it simply renders their hate useless. The only situation where I find Needle to be a very weak card is when my opponent is running several different pieces of hate which doesn't occur very often because nobody wants to devote a large part is his sideboard to the Ichorid matchup.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Originally Posted by Parcher
4 Golgari Grave-Troll/4 Stinkweed Imp/3 Golgari Thug: Some time ago, people much better at math than myself calculated that in a 60-card deck, the line for having the best chance of having a card in your opening seven without redundancy was at the number eleven.


...just a question: Is the highest chance not at 8 cards?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergeometric_distribution

YawG

[Parcher]

Thanks for the appreciation guys.

@Ozy: We have a lot in common. I too like to go through huge blocks of tremendously researched and time-proven detailed text that you can't find anywhere else, and find simple a two-digit mistake, and then be a complete douche about it. We should hang out!:smile:

For whatever reason, I can't edit the post. It just shows as blank when the screen pops up.

@Yawg: I did mention that I didn't know anything about math, right? I got the number crunching from someone who I assumed knew what they were talking about. It's worked out well for me, so I haven't questioned it. If you find some formula that works out better for you, than go for it.

[Lukas Preuss]

I might as well get the mathematical facts straight on this one:

Yawg. is right that the chance for having exactly one dredge card in your opening hand is highest with 8 dredge cards in your maindeck (around 42%; seven and nine dredge cards both lead to a percentage of 41%). BUT the percentage of having exactly one dredge card isn't the most important factor here, because starting hands with more than one dredge card are not necessarily worse.

The most important factor is that starting hands WITHOUT a dredge card are very bad for this deck. Having eleven dredge cards in your deck pushes the percentage of having NO dredge cards in your opening seven below 25% (meaning that less than one out of four opening hands don't have a dredger).

As a big fan of Careful Study in this deck, I have to say that running a few of them allows you to cut one dredger, because the additional draw statistically leads to a better chance of seeing a dredge card on the first turn, as you now have a chance of 74,8 % of drawing one in your opening hand and an additional chance of drawing one in Careful Study's two cards (if you see one) - of course this might make mulligan decisions more difficult, though.


Edit: Oh, and very nice primer, Parcher! Nice work!

[Elf_Ascetic]

Needle vs Gargadon comes IMO down to this:

Gargadon allows you to play around the hate more easily.
Needle shuts down the hate, when he hits the table.
Needle can be countered, Gargadon not.

Needle and Chain do the same thing, where Gargadon complements the deck in another way. I think that not a bad thing.

[Raptor]

Hello,
your decklist is original, and I'll probally bring it to a tournament.
But, I'm not sure to understand teh gargeddon, sure, he can be really good in some situation, but what do you do versus and early crypt or an early relic ?
If the know how to use them, they can stall the game so much and outrace you.

[keys]

Needle vs Gargadon comes IMO down to this:

Gargadon allows you to play around the hate more easily.
Needle shuts down the hate, when he hits the table.
Needle can be countered, Gargadon not.

Needle and Chain do the same thing, where Gargadon complements the deck in another way. I think that not a bad thing.

Why can't Gargadon be countered?

[heroicraptor]

Why can't Gargadon be countered?

Suspending a card is a game action, similar to playing a land or drawing a card for the draw step.

[ScatmanX]

But it can be countered when it resolves...

Great primer. Can see you put a lot of effort in it. Great work!

[keys]

But it can be countered when it resolves...

That's what I'm saying...

I feel like if you give a player 3-4 turns to respond to Gargadon he's going to find the removal or counter to deal with it when/after it resolves...

I appreciate that you can sac in response to StP with it, but I just don't think this is as Parcher is suggesting. It's kind of like trying to play Stifle/Deadnought in a deck that's not Dreadstill; you need the protection to back it up, otherwise it's just an easy target.

Awesome Primer, though. I definitely learned a few things.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I feel like if you give a player 3-4 turns to respond to Gargadon he's going to find the removal or counter to deal with it when/after it resolves...


That's the whole point of Parcher saying you should strip their hand before he resolves. The turn before, use one of your 4 Cabal Therapies (that should almost definitely be in the library by now) and sac it for Force of Will, or StoP if you suspect it (or Stifle if you really suspect that). Then, BAM you have a 9/7 in play.


Parcher, that was such a good primer that I might actually have to play this in a tournament.

[Parcher]

@Lukas: Thanks, everything you wrote sounds correct, even down to Study making horrendous mulligan decisions. The part where the same theory doesn't apply is running eleven lands for the same reason. Unlike Dredgers in most cases, having more than one land in your opening hand is usually bad thing.

I thinks everyone is missing the point of Gargadon. His use as a beater is by far the least of his uses. The choke points of this deck that are most targeted regardless of sideboard cards are: 1) Remove Bridges from game, and 2) Remove Ichorids from game. Crypt and Relic can still do this, but as always, your opponent has to get them before you win. Just the same with Jailer, Leyline, Extirpate, etc. Gargadon shuts down every other way to stop this recursion. Fanatic? I still get tokens. StP? Coming back anyway. Explosives? Well, here comes Gargadon. They can save their removal for Gargadon and stil protect it from discard? Then they die to Ichorids. As long as you play to preserve your board presence, and are aware of your opponent's counter-measures, he lets you either avoid them, or attack from so many angles that you overwhelm them. Most removal hits Gargadon. Counter-magic too. Hell, even Stifle can stop him. So what? If they are doing that, you still have the generally most unstoppable plan in the format still working against them.

[Twoshirty]

Great op Parcher. Your the man! Good lookin on the gargadon tech. I was just curious about your opinion on somethin. How do you feel about revilark or protean hulk? I have tested hulk and if it hits the yard you can win on the spot usually (getting like two pimps and the zealot) Revillark is a bit more situational but it seems good too. Am I just being drawn in by the danger of cute things? Anyone feel free to chime in, I am just wondering cause I know how you feel about woodfall duder and angel of D, and it isnt just a big ugly monster it seems like they would slightly increase your chance of winning a little bit. Just curious how you all felt about those guys.

[Parcher]

The truth is that I've never played Protean Hulk, nor Reveillark in Ichorid.

Hulk, strategically, makes no sense. He's probably run as a 1-of. So you will most often have to mill a great deal of your deck to get him into the 'yard. Then, you have to have a sacrifice outlet. Then, you are expected to still find enough creatures remaining in your library to make the sacrifice even useful, much less as good as the standard options. No sir, I don't like it.

Reveillark is far better, but may be overkill in most cases. If you are bringing back FKZ with Rev, you could already bring back FKZ. Now getting both, as well as at least one other creature, may give you the win in cases when you don't have enough zombies to do so otherwise. But in general situations where that might come up, I'd rather have a Chosen or Inkwell that can provide pressure without other creatures. Also, you have to have enough targets to be relevant, and have a sacrifice outlet when Rev hits play. That's going to be likely, but an additional consideration nonetheless. I couldn't see it replacing anything main, but if you have extra slots it shouldn't hurt.

[andrew77]

I think Parchers list is quite solid. The only important change I would make is the following...

-1 ichorid
-1 firestorm
+1 dread return
+1 unmask

It is my experience that 3 dread returns are necessary and it just seems silly to only run 3 unmasks if you insist on running a full playset of therapies. When I ran ichorid without unmask I found 3 to be the optimal number of therapies, preferring other cards to the 4th, but in a deck with unmask 4 of each seems too good to pass up. To be honest though I really want to try and squeeze in a third deep analysis in a list running that much discard.

Other than that I would probably run sage over witness, but that is just a personal preferance. For all I know witness could be better. To me though sage is almost always better at digging which is what I want it to do, while witness can help in many other situations.

I am also not sold on gargadon in the sb and would probably prefer needle or something of that nature. I have never been a fan of ancestors chosen either. I would rather run angel of despair or something. I have actually won a number of games from angel blowing up glacial chasm, confinement, or ghostly prison.

Anyway here is my list for the moment...

Creatures (24)

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage

Sorcery (16)

4 Breakthrough
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Unmask
3 Dread Return
2 Deep Analysis

Enchantments (4)

4 Bridge from Below

Instant (1)

1 Brainstorm

Artifacts (4)

4 Lion's Eye Diamond

Land (11)

4 Gemstone Minne
3 City of Brass
3 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Undiscovered Paradise

Sideboard (15)

4 Pithing Needle
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Firestorm
1 Whispermare
1 Angel of Despair
1 Cabal therapy


My most recent change was dropping a therapy for brainstorm. In testing 8 discard effects seemed like too much and I was also frustrated with a lot of my draws not being all that explosive. I tried a third deep analysis first, but it doesn't really do too much to justify. I then threw in a careful study, but after a few games of drawing it I knew it had no place. It is good at digging for answers postboard, but that is about it. It is fairly weak at doing everything else and can really screw you at times if you draw narcs or other such things. This gave me the idea of trying brainstorm. It basically functions as a 5th breakthrough and has been pretty good so far.

[Twoshirty]

Thank you for responding so quickly just curious how you felt about those guys! As far as cutting an ichorid from the deck...I dont know about that I heard somewhere that Ichorid is pretty good... The more chances you have to reanimate in multiples the better and the extras can feed each other. Plus that sexy blue tounge...

[Tacosnape]

@Parcher: Fantastic primer. I spent my morning run mulling over this list in my head and I really love the sideboard innovations. This is making me dig around in my old Ichorid staples to see what I still have. Haven't picked up the deck in aeons.

Wispmare's point over Erase, I assume, is that midgame it can be Dread Returned to handle random crap like Ghostly Prison? Hadn't thought of this (Or actually I think it hadn't been printed when I last played Ichorid, I can't remember which.) The singleton Firestorm I also assume is made much more viable by the fact that you run Witness over Cephalid Sage.

Where does Ancestor's Chosen help you out the most? And do you ever find yourself wanting a third Deep Analysis maindeck?

[NecroYawgmoth]

Wispmare is played over Erase because you "evoke" Zombie-Tokens when you have a Bridge in the 'yard

Chosen is against fast Aggro-Burn-Decks like Zoo, or decks like Combo to get you out of Tendrils Range

YawG

[Tacosnape]

Wispmare is played over Erase because you "evoke" Zombie-Tokens when you have a Bridge in the 'yard

That too. Nice. Why isn't Ingot Chewer played for similar reasons? Enchantments far more threatening than Artifacts?


Chosen is against fast Aggro-Burn-Decks like Zoo, or decks like Combo to get you out of Tendrils Range

Interesting. My thought to both of said matchups is to just outrace the former and outrace or disrupt the latter. I can see where I might like it against Zoo, but I'm not sold on it. I'll assemble the deck and give it a whirl though.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Enchantments are more evil... you can't win against Leyline, and against Propaganda or Humility , it's nice to get some Tokens...

I don't see any dangerous Artifacts besides Crypt and Relic, and they can be Needled, or like Parcher said "Gargadon-Tech" them to win.

[Tinefol]

First post disappeared...

[Jaynel]

Wispmare's point over Erase, I assume, is that midgame it can be Dread Returned to handle random crap like Ghostly Prison? Hadn't thought of this (Or actually I think it hadn't been printed when I last played Ichorid, I can't remember which.) The singleton Firestorm I also assume is made much more viable by the fact that you run Witness over Cephalid Sage.

Furthermore, Wispmare gives +1/+1 to an animated Grave-Troll and can be put back on top of your library with a sacrificed Golgari Thug.

[Joe_C]

I played in Vestal yesterday running this list:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Eternal Winess
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Unmask
2 Dread Return
2 Deep Analysis
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Gemstone Minne
4 City of Brass
3 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Undiscovered Paradise

Sideboard:
4 Greater Gargadon
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Firestorm
2 Wispmare
1 Ancestor's Chosen

I lost my first round due to my opponent topdecking a STP in G3 the turn after I therapy him naming STP. I had a returned Gargadon on board with 2 zombie tokens(which were 1/1 due to an engineered plauge). The win would have been in my hand the next turn if he had not drawn STP. I started the day by losing my first 2 matches, then went 2-0 my next 3 rounds. Then got beat down by mulligans and harsh matchups in rounds 6+7. I proceeded to drop after round 7 since I needed sleep.

Overall the list is amazing, I think next time I play it I will be doing -1 Unmask, -1 Coliseum, +1 Gemstone, +1 Dread Return. Wispmares in tbe board may become Ingot Chewers or Ancient Grudges. I brought in vapors and wispmares against anything that ran black and they all did not run Leyline. The only deck I would expect to see SB leyline anymore is the mirror match. I just felt like the Wispmares could have been something better.

[DragoFireheart]

That's the whole point of Parcher saying you should strip their hand before he resolves. The turn before, use one of your 4 Cabal Therapies (that should almost definitely be in the library by now) and sac it for Force of Will, or StoP if you suspect it (or Stifle if you really suspect that). Then, BAM you have a 9/7 in play.


Parcher, that was such a good primer that I might actually have to play this in a tournament.


Don't you mean graveyard? I thought Cabals were main decked...?

[andrew77]

I played the following list in vestal...

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Gemstone Minne
4 City of Brass
3 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Bridge from Below
1 Brainstorm
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage
4 Breakthrough
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Unmask
2 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
2 Deep Analysis

Here's a quick report...

Round 1 I face dragon stompy. Game one is a quick win for me after he doesn nothing to disrupt me. Game 2 he gets a turn one trinisphere which hampers my plans a bit, but I just draw and discard. He drops a chalice for zero and starts to kill me slowly. I basically misplay the turn before I die chosing to dredge instead of draw even though if I drew a land I could firestorm his board. For some reason dredging seemed better to me at the time even though I needed to hit 2 bridges of one dredge to even be alive. Game 3 I win handily as I unmask away his engineered explosives and combo off a few turns later.

Round 2 I get paired up against Bryant Cook with TES. I know what he is playing so I know I need very aggressive draws or disruption. I keep a hand that has 2x LED, deep analysis, brainstorm, dredger, land and something else. I go for the turn one win and completely fizzle. I do get some therapies off, but his hand is still quite strong. A few turns later he goes for the diminishing returns win and it looks like it's over, but his draws are crap and my ichorids finish him off next turn. Game two I keep a slower hand that has disruption. He mulligans and I am able to strip his hand of business. I don't put too much pressure on and he finds Ad Nauseum and wins. Game three I get the turn one kill

Round 3 I get paired up against loam. Game one I mull a lot. My hand is ok if I hit a land which I don't. I have brainstorm in hand so I decide to pretend I'm playing combo and I spend time every turn pretending to go through the possible win in my head. Once I get to 8 cards I discard brainstorm and the then the following turn I once again do some counting and decide I can't combo off so I scoop. I don't remember if there were two or three games, but I do remember getting him down to 1 after some aweful dredging just to have him kill me with a gigantic crusher and goyf after he swept my board away.

Round 4 I face thresh and as expected I mull to oblivion game 1. Woohoo. Game two is very close too since he counters my draw effects and I am just left with 1 dredge per turn. All three ichorids were in the last 12 cards of my deck though so it takes me forever to find them and kill him. Game three goes to time.

Round 5 I face canadian thresh. I can't really remember this match except that he doesn't get much disruption excepting counters and he tried to race me. I play around fire/ice and lightning bolt and pull it out.

Round 6 I face mono black. I can't remember the name of the deck. Anyway game one is easy since he has no way to stop me. Game two he extirpates twice. I can't remember what he hit, but you really need three extirpates to stop this deck, which is why extirpate is weak.

Round 7 Everything starts going downhill from here. I get paired against merfolk. They tell us we can start playing and I keep a very solid 7 and we are off. Then guess what. REPAIRING. And i;m facing the same player, but now he knows what i'm playing, which is a huge disadvantage to me. And of course I mull to 5. Great. Just great. Game two I have another decent hand and I try and go for the turn two win instead of starting to combo turn one. Looking back this was probably the wrong play and I really started getting angry in between rounds about this. I basically had the following hand... thug, putrid imp, bridge, unmask, land, breakthrough. I basically decided if imp lands next turn I can dredge, hopefully hitting another dredger, then unmask him and combo off. What I should have done was just unmask right off the bat removing bridge. I just didn't want to remove bridge and my other plan seemed quite good at the time.

Round 8 At this point I am already angry and tired and can't concentrate. I almost punt game one by playing around force even though I had just therapied that turn him and saw he had no counters or any way of finding any. In the end I pull through though. Game two is more of the same with me misplaying everywhere thinking I have it in the bag after putting needle on relic and stripping his hand. I overextend and am introduced to the world of amazing topdecks and tormods crypt the turn before ichorids kill him. Game three involves mulliganing a lot and him having a very aggressive hand.

[davidboan]

Hey Guys,

I've been playing the deck for a while now and I'm having trouble coming up with a decent sideboard for My janky Meta. We don't see much hate but when its around its usually in the form of Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus or 1 Death and Taxes deck packing Samurai of the Pale Curtain. The Meta I play in is mostly things like tribal decks and type 2 decks with a few legacy cards thrown in. Any suggestions You guys could make for a board for this kind of meta would be greatly appreciated. Here is the list I'm running at the moment.

LAND
4 Cephilid Colesium
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

DUDES
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
1 Eternal Witness
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

STUFF
4 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Unmask
2 Deep Analysis
2 Dread Return

SIDEBOARD
4 Firestorm
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Pithing Needle
3 Chain of Vapor

[NecroYawgmoth]

Originally Posted by davidboan
The Meta I play in is mostly things like tribal decks and type 2 decks with a few legacy cards thrown in.

Leyline is against which deck???

[davidboan]

Leyline is against which deck???

Leyline comes in vs the mirror (L.E.Dless), reanimator and pretty much anything with recursion.

[Skeggi]

I saw a guy once running Ichorid with Compulsion. What do you guys think about that? Probably too slow?

[Joe_C]

I saw a guy once running Ichorid with Compulsion. What do you guys think about that? Probably too slow?

Running LED and Compulsion wouldnt work out so great, even in the LEDless build it seems slow.

[GoldenCid]

Has anybody seriously tested Greater gargadon instead of needle?? Any results??

[sunshine]

Has anybody seriously tested Greater gargadon instead of needle?? Any results??

I ran a 3/2 split of Gargadon/Needle at the Vestal tourney. I played against exactly zero decks running StP and had not one sweeper cast against me - so I did not get to see its full usefulness. They were interesting but awkward at times (sided in against Goblins, Aggro Loam, and Burn). There were also times where I wished that I had all four Needles instead but that's just how my matchups fell.

Too bad you can't sac enchantments to Gargadon. There was one game where I needed to get a Bridge in my yard and had one in hand with no discard outlet, I had three black mana on the board with a suspended Gargadon - sad face.

[Joe_C]

Has anybody seriously tested Greater gargadon instead of needle?? Any results??

I also played with gargadon in my board at Vestal. I did dread return 1 into play which would have ended the game if my opponent didnt topdeck STP. I did get a suspended one into play and got it down to 3 counters on it before I won. In a way its almost like a "ticking clock" for your opponent. They know that if they target all your stuff, you will just sac it to gargadon, which slows them down, which means you should win. Protecting Ichorid from STP is probably the best use Gargadon has.

[GoldenCid]

Protecting Ichorid from STP is probably the best use Gargadon has.

Indeed?? So you side gargadon against landstill and threahhold beside burn and goblins??

[jimirynk]

Don't you already have a good game vs landstill and thresh?

[Joe_C]

Indeed?? So you side gargadon against landstill and threahhold beside burn and goblins??

Of course. Threshold and landstill both run engineered explosives for the most part and swords to plowshares. Wastelands are also quite common to see in landstill, and having something to do with a land that would go to the grave anyways is better than nothing. Gargadon is feeling really good to me so far.....

[jimirynk]

Indeed?? So you side gargadon against landstill and threahhold beside burn and goblins??

Don't you already have a good game vs landstill and thresh?

[Xero]

This deck gets some help from the rule changes following M10. LED can be cracked to empty your hand with no draw back. Mogg Fanatic and Qasali Pridemage are less likely to be played because of the changes to the combat step, and Storm Combo decks get slightly worse as they can no longer float LED mana. Yeah, I think LED Ichorid is clearly the biggest winner from these rule changes.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

However, the new combat rules weaken Greater Gargadon. No longer can you run an Ichorid into something to take it out and sacrifice.

[GoldenCid]

However, the new combat rules weaken Greater Gargadon. No longer can you run an Ichorid into something to take it out and sacrifice.

Do you think so?? I still think that gargadon is very useful...

[dlevsApiJ]

But most of the times you will have Bridge('s) in your grave, so you already wanted to sac your Ichorid before it does combat damage..

I'm playing this list;

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
3 [AN] City of Brass
4 [JGC] Gemstone Mine
1 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise

// Creatures
4 [DDC] Stinkweed Imp
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug

// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
2 [TSP] Dread Return
2 [FNM] Deep Analysis
3 [MM] Unmask
1 [ON] Chain of Vapor

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MM] Unmask
SB: 3 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [WL] Firestorm
SB: 1 [10E] Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 1 [LRW] Wispmare
SB: 1 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 4 [TSP] Greater Gargadon

I'm testing 1 Chain of Vapor main instead of the Firestorm Parcher plays.
At the moment, i'm playing an MWS-tourney and when I finish it, I will post my results with this list. 'Till now, I'm very happy with it :smile: .

(ps. I play Ichorid for quite a while now, but mostly in the time when we played Sage over Witness and card x (me: Careful Study) over Unmask. Because I stopped playing MTG for a while, these newer lists are quite new for me, and I've to get used with playing the Gargadon "optimal".)

[Parcher]

As far as the rules changes, they aid Ichorid through the weakening of other decks. Any "sacrifice" creature becomes potentially worse, while Fanatic becomes definitively worse. The uses of Gargadon are rarely lessened since you will most often have to sac your creatures before damage is dealt to save Bridges anyway.

The LED matter is largely irrelevant since three life is rarely within the bounds of actual game result determination if you actually get to effectively use an LED.

And speaking as one who has had both Team America and DreadStill decks Stifle Deathtouch from a Stinkweed that would have lost them the game, I am happy for at least that change.

[Tacosnape]

As far as the rules changes, they aid Ichorid through the weakening of other decks. Any "sacrifice" creature becomes potentially worse, while Fanatic becomes definitively worse. The uses of Gargadon are rarely lessened since you will most often have to sac your creatures before damage is dealt to save Bridges anyway.

The LED matter is largely irrelevant since three life is rarely within the bounds of actual game result determination if you actually get to effectively use an LED.

And speaking as one who has had both Team America and DreadStill decks Stifle Deathtouch from a Stinkweed that would have lost them the game, I am happy for at least that change.

Agreed. I had the same thought. Fanatic going away will be fantastic for Ichorid (Also for my Survival deck.)

[1maarten1]

i like the list from the opening post, but i always used to run a fatty MD. Is there still place for that? :rolleyes: Plz dont ask my why i want it lol :tongue:
If yea: what to remove?

Thanks, maarten

[lolosoon]

i like the list from the opening post, but i always used to run a fatty MD. Is there still place for that? :rolleyes: Plz dont ask my why i want it lol :tongue:
If yea: what to remove?
You already have 4 fatties packed in your standard Ichorid Decklist : Golgari Grave Troll.

You don't need additionnal fat. The slots are tight, and Unmask is more valuable than a mere beater imho.

[dlevsApiJ]

i like the list from the opening post, but i always used to run a fatty MD. Is there still place for that? :rolleyes: Plz dont ask my why i want it lol :tongue:
If yea: what to remove?

Thanks, maarten

There is one free slot I think. In my last posted list it's the Chain of Vapor slot (and in Parcher's list from the opening post, its automatically the Firestorm). So of you want to waste that single free-slot to a MD fattie, please do so (yeah, really, it's a waste of the slot and not even slightly good.. you're better of playing some other card in that space (like chain of Vapor, Firestorm or the 4rd Unmask).

I'm really happy with the Greater Gargadon after all my testing games. Go go Parcher for inventing it :laugh: ! I really don't want to go back to the Needles.

[Tacosnape]

I'm running the fourth Thug in place of the flex slot (Unmask #4/Firestorm #1/Chain of Vapor #1). Having a dredger at all times is so imperative, and he's also Unmask/Ichorid fodder. He's been doing good for me so far. I'll still try out some of the other ideas though. I'll test this a lot in the upcoming week in Panama City with lots of alcohol, and drunk beach testing results mean more than ordinary results, so there you go.

[GoldenCid]

You don't need additionnal fat. The slots are tight, and Unmask is more valuable than a mere beater imho.

+1. :wink:

I see that gargadon is a good boy...i'll try it.

[mattbrownsound]

And speaking as one who has had both Team America and DreadStill decks Stifle Deathtouch from a Stinkweed that would have lost them the game, I am happy for at least that change.

Despite its ability being essentially equivalent to Deathtouch, Stinkweed Imp does not actually have Deathtouch. Unfortunately, this means that it will continue to be a triggered ability and thus remain Stifle-able.

[GoldenCid]

Despite its ability being essentially equivalent to Deathtouch, Stinkweed Imp does not actually have Deathtouch. Unfortunately, this means that it will continue to be a triggered ability and thus remain Stifle-able.

The fact is that rules changes will not significantly affect ichorid deck working...just that.

[Kuma]

This new Ichorid list is full of win.

I'm 13-1-2 in matches in the two tournaments I've run the new list.

A few thoughts:

- Greater Gargadon is the most annoying card in the deck for your opponents. They literally can't remove your Bridges without some kind of Crypt/Relic/etc. After several turns of frustration, you beat their faces in with a hasty 9/7. I was never unhappy to see one in my opening hand.

- I was not a big fan of replacing Cephalid Sage with Eternal Witness, but I'm starting to come around. I was able to win the semi-finals by getting back a Gemstone Mine to play Firestorm and kill a Lorescale Coatl and a Sower of Tempation stealing a Narcomoeba while dealing my opponent three crucial points of damage.

- In the second tournament, I ran the fourth Thug over the main-decked Firestorm and moved the fourth Firestorm to the board over a Wispmare. I really don't see the purpose of the singleton Firestorm in the main deck, and I was grateful for the extra dredger/Ichorid fodder all day. In the fifteen matches I played, I only ran into one deck with Leyline of the Void. The card isn't prevalent in most metas, and while it's game over if we can't remove it, I don't think we need to make subpar sideboard choices because we're afraid of a ghost.

[NecroYawgmoth]

...you can dig for the Firestorm with your Witness, beause Firestorm is always almost in your Graveyard...

It helps a lot against Zoo, Merfolk and Goblins, but on the other hand, you should win the first game anyway, so it's generally not needed...

I play the 3rd Dread Return in the random slot, and I'm very happy with it.

My Board plays the 4th Firestorm, because I can't see any sense in the 4th Unmask in the Sideboard.

[Parcher]

Both Dread Return and Thug are good replacements for the main deck Firestorm; as is Unmask. I had it there due to a huge contingent of Merfolk and Zoo decks locally. That is the one slot that rotates. I'm really glad to see someone having success with the deck as-is though. As I've said before; with this version, changing even a few cards will screw up the entire way it can/will play.

I still have the room for Wispmare, so I'll keep it. While I agree that Leyline is rarely seen, it is a game-breaker, and Wispmare is very good against enchantments in general. Mainly decks you don't normally worry about containing Propaganda, Ghostly Prison, and/or Elephant Grass. This deck can't always get the mana to pay for a Troll attack through these. Moat is even rarer, but even harder to win through if it hits.

[1maarten1]

Both Dread Return and Thug are good replacements for the main deck Firestorm; as is Unmask. I had it there due to a huge contingent of Merfolk and Zoo decks locally. That is the one slot that rotates. I'm really glad to see someone having success with the deck as-is though. As I've said before; with this version, changing even a few cards will screw up the entire way it can/will play.

I still have the room for Wispmare, so I'll keep it. While I agree that Leyline is rarely seen, it is a game-breaker, and Wispmare is very good against enchantments in general. Mainly decks you don't normally worry about containing Propaganda, Ghostly Prison, and/or Elephant Grass. This deck can't always get the mana to pay for a Troll attack through these. Moat is even rarer, but even harder to win through if it hits.

I got a -pro for wispmare, i played my led-less ichorid at a tournament a while ago and got pared again red death. I lose game 1 due to a huge playmistake (shit happens, was first time with ichorid in general :rolleyes: ) And g2 i start, he goes bang leyline i go mine chain of vapor it. I wish i had a wispmare there, next turn he goes badlands, dark ritual replay it, play mogg fanatic... me GG :cry:

Im playing this list atm, only think is that i play a full set of unmasks MD in stead of the firestorm. Great list :smile:

thanks, Maarten

[GoldenCid]

In the "random slot" i run a land...paradise if you want. I don't know what to say...i just feel confortable. At first i started with a 11 lands mana base with 4x coliseum. Then i changed to 12 with no much conviction cutting the 3rd return and i got used to it. Is this suboptimal??

[GGoober]

People have been talking about Brainstorm over Breakthrough (not replacing but complementing) in non-LED dredge. I think it's worth considering since it allows us to dig for lands, and puts Narcomoebas back from hand to library, and dredges 3 times when we have a discard outlet.

I'm wondering whether it's a good idea to test it out. Not to mention it's instant speed to boot, making it a ton better. But we're more prone to Chalice@1.

[GoldenCid]

Sorry, but non led dredge has it own thread! :smile:

[GGoober]

I know! I was wondering if Brainstorm is good in LED-versions, to draw into lands and to dredge when needed.

[andrew77]

I have tested brainstorm in LED ichorid and running 1 alongside the 4 breakthrough's is fine. I don't think you should ever be running more than 1 unless you plan on replacing breakthroughs, but that makes no sense in LED ichorid since you want to win as fast as possible.

[GoldenCid]

I have tested brainstorm in LED ichorid and running 1 alongside the 4 breakthrough's is fine. I don't think you should ever be running more than 1 unless you plan on replacing breakthroughs, but that makes no sense in LED ichorid since you want to win as fast as possible.

I agree. Breakthough means 4 dredged cards and back to the yard, it's a powerfull fuel for comboing off.

[Parcher]

It's good to see someone other than myself doing well in recorded tournaments with this version of the deck.

Three of the last four Ichorid lists from deckcheck.net:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27427
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27511
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27520

I really like the one with a simple switch of Unmask for Tireless Tribe. In any environment without Painter or Storm Combo it's probably an excellent choice.

[GoldenCid]

I thought the same respect to tribe for unmask. That version is almost mine's with the diference that i run the unmasks and a paradise for a colisseum.
The advantage of unmask is the data about the match in a "blind" metagame.

[jimirynk]

Has everyone seen this list?
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27638

thoughts?

[OurSerratedDust]

I playtested it a little, but it just didn't flow that well to me.

[GoldenCid]

What about this coming card??

Burning Inquiry
Cost: R
Sorcery Common
Each player draws three cards, then discards three cards at random.

[Parcher]

Has everyone seen this list?
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27638

thoughts?

I have seen it, and other than the fact that it appears on DeckCheck, and runs LED, as basically all the Legacy Ichorid decks that have actually done well in a tournament that appear on DeckCheck do, it doesn't seem to have much going for it. But when your Top 8 is Landstill, 9-color Fish, Aggro-Loam, and Burn, it shouldn't be difficult for any Ichorid deck to win

[Dark_Cynic87]

First, the new primer is really good. I do want to point out that Brainstorm was minimally touched on and a big part of the card's usefulness was ignored. Brainstorm can be played to good success if used properly. For instance, I've used it to put Narcs back on top of my library to dredge into play. I've hid stuff from Duress (some people opt to leave it in their MD when going first against Ichorid) with it, and it digs 3 cards down to find answers while still giving you +1 CA.

I'm not trying to be critical, just helpful. I know it's not a choice most players opt for when playing this list, but I want people who play this to understand it's not a wrong choice, just an unpopular one. It can be used to good effect, though, in the right metagame.

Pce,

--DC

[DragoFireheart]

I remember this deck used to be a DTB. Why isn't it anymore? Is this not a powerful, Tier 1 deck?

[beastman]

It's not played enough to be a deck to beat. And you have to be a good player to get results with it. Parcher is one of the only people Ive ever seen play the deck almost flawlessly on a consistent basis.

[Amon Amarth]

Ichorid isn't that hard to play- the deck is incredibly linear. The hardest choice is whether you should mulligan or not, at least Game 1. Playing around hate is the big one though. Especially since there are so many different cards you have to deal with and different answers for each. Needle is good against Crypt but crap against Leyline.

That can't be the only reason though. I think people don't take it seriously or perhaps they just hate to play the deck or whatever.

[1maarten1]

What about this coming card??

Burning Inquiry
Cost: R
Sorcery Common
Each player draws three cards, then discards three cards at random.

Hmm, I dont know... It looks nice on paper, but you can only cast it with rainbow lands, it draws less then breakthrough. I dont think there is place for it in the deck. Or does someone disagree with me :tongue:

~Maarten

[Dark_Cynic87]

It could be okay, but random discard is crap. Seriously it's worse than aids.

Pce,

--DC

[GoldenCid]

It could be okay, but random discard is crap. Seriously it's worse than aids.

Pce,

--DC

I thought the same...but...i'll try to get my play set in the pre release event.

[Parcher]

Ichorid isn't that hard to play- the deck is incredibly linear. The hardest choice is whether you should mulligan or not, at least Game 1. Playing around hate is the big one though. Especially since there are so many different cards you have to deal with and different answers for each. Needle is good against Crypt but crap against Leyline.

That can't be the only reason though. I think people don't take it seriously or perhaps they just hate to play the deck or whatever.

I agree that the deck is perhaps the most linear around, and that the most difficult decision Game One is most often involving mulliganing. I disagree that it is easy to play. The problem with such a linear and powerful deck is that most often people do not realize their mistakes, since they are not punished for them. It's not the mulligan decisions, as you will pay for making those incorrectly. It's the ones when you are actually forced to play Magic. The ones where your opponent and you both have some modicum of your game plan implemented, but not to any overwhelming degree. Like when Landstill gets Humility down, or when Goyf Sligh kills your Bridges with a first turn Fanatic, then drops a second-turn 'Goyf after you Dredge all six types. These are where the real players still get the win.

Playing through Hate is obviously difficult, especially when your opponent has access to Black mana. It requires a patience most who choose this deck don't yet have.

I think that a lot of people do hate the deck because it is so linear. That is one of the reasons I love it. I've labored to add cards that allow multiple directions the deck can go in, and new avenues of attack. It also has a huge learning curve since it goes against all instincts from playing other decks. And you have to play it differently against each deck differently in each game of a match. People are also afraid of Hate, and Ichorid's supposed "bad matchups".

@Darkcynic: Brainstorm is fine as long as you can find room for it. The problem no matter what is that it requires a discard spell, and therefore can never replace one in a slot. It also can't replace Breakthrough since it simply draws less. The Narco trick is nice, but rarely relevant in any situation you weren't already going to win in. And the dig is most often a false positive, begging to keep hands that should have been mulliganned. In any case, it is always slower than it's alternatives.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I understand that, but as long as you don't do that it fits the Careful Study slot fine. I would run it as a 2x of or a 3x of simply for it's digging capability as it really is superior to Study. You even have a pseudo-shuffle effect with dredge so it works quite well IMHO.

Putting Narc back on top of your library doesn't necessarily mean you are winning, it just means you have an active dredger, and probably a discard outlet. While that helps, it doesn't mean you are winning, you just still have a chance.

Pce,

--DC

[Amon Amarth]

I agree that the deck is perhaps the most linear around, and that the most difficult decision Game One is most often involving mulliganing. I disagree that it is easy to play. The problem with such a linear and powerful deck is that most often people do not realize their mistakes, since they are not punished for them. It's not the mulligan decisions, as you will pay for making those incorrectly. It's the ones when you are actually forced to play Magic. The ones where your opponent and you both have some modicum of your game plan implemented, but not to any overwhelming degree. Like when Landstill gets Humility down, or when Goyf Sligh kills your Bridges with a first turn Fanatic, then drops a second-turn 'Goyf after you Dredge all six types. These are where the real players still get the win.

Playing through Hate is obviously difficult, especially when your opponent has access to Black mana. It requires a patience most who choose this deck don't yet have.

I think that a lot of people do hate the deck because it is so linear. That is one of the reasons I love it. I've labored to add cards that allow multiple directions the deck can go in, and new avenues of attack. It also has a huge learning curve since it goes against all instincts from playing other decks. And you have to play it differently against each deck differently in each game of a match. People are also afraid of Hate, and Ichorid's supposed "bad matchups".

Ah, I see your point. I've played so many Game 1's with Ichorid I only remember the blowouts. It's not often you are forced to interact with any deck Game 1 because you can often blank their deck unless they run a select set of cards. Furthermore, Cabal Therapy and Unmask ensure that troublesome cards never resolve. Ichorid like any other deck rewards play skill, it just plays like some weird bastard child of Combo and Reanimator.

Ichorid's lack of appeal is strangely familiar, it reminds me of PT Columbus. Pierre Canali was one of 8 Affinity players in the tournament. He ended up winning event sweeping Nakamura, playing RDW, 3-0 in the Finals. There was a ton of hate present but Canali had tested extensively and had a great SB and Meddling Mage maindeck to deal with hate.

All it's really going to take to see the deck become a DTB is any Pro/skilled player pilot the deck to a win or T8 at a large tournament like a GP or Gencon. Maybe then the deck will get some respect.

[GoldenCid]

Concernign mulligan, serum powder isn't useful as used in Vintage??

[Zach Tartell]

Concernign mulligan, serum powder isn't useful as used in Vintage??

It's not even remotely as useful in Legacy. Vintage keeps if it has Bazaar and mulls if it doesn't. There are a ridiculous amount of keepable hands for Legacy (that depend far less on one 4-of being in their opener); as such it isn't nearly as good.

[Raptor]

Hello,
I've played ichorid deck several times, and this deck a good amount of times too...It seems like I have lots of problems with this deck (maybe luck isn't on my side.. :p)

So, I played at least 9 round in tournament with this deck (the version of the op), and in these 9 round, I've lost 7 times the dices rolls, maybe even 8 times...
In 27 games, I got a turn 2 win, and the rest was like 5th or higher, my metagame is filled with aggro deck and decks like Threshold, survival (with blue), merfold.
There is ALWAYS 2 things missing in this : land, discard outlet, dredge, draw

Is it me being unlucky, or is it bad metagame choice ?


By the way :
If my hand is : Pimp, Breakthrough, Stinkwind Imp, Witness, unmask, gemstone mine and I am on the play, should I use my unmask even if I don't know what I am playing (game 1 )? And If I have this hand + another dredger, should I use it ?

[GoldenCid]

Hello,
By the way :
If my hand is : Pimp, Breakthrough, Stinkwind Imp, Witness, unmask, gemstone mine and I am on the play, should I use my unmask even if I don't know what I am playing (game 1 )? And If I have this hand + another dredger, should I use it ?

Mmm..it's a good hand. In my opinion, if you have no idea which deck is playing your opponent you'd play unmask on him, discard, and play your imp for your own discard. Then play breakthrough in T2. It's what i'd do.

[andrew77]

If my hand is : Pimp, Breakthrough, Stinkwind Imp, Witness, unmask, gemstone mine and I am on the play, should I use my unmask even if I don't know what I am playing (game 1 )? And If I have this hand + another dredger, should I use it ?

You basically have two options for playing out that hand. One would be to unmask yourself and cast breakthrough and the other would be to drop imp, dredge during your next draw step, and then breakthrough then.

If you ask me the latter is much better since unmasking yourself and going for the win has 2 problems. 1 is that you lose to FoW on breakthrough, and the second is that there is still a good chance you fizzle. If you just play an imp you are basically guaranteed a turn 2 win, possibly with the protection of unmask if your first dredge is good.

If you have another dredger the only difference is that you could unmask your opponent turn one. The only difference this would make is if they are playing a combo deck you could stop a possible turn one kill on their part.

[Raptor]

You basically have two options for playing out that hand. One would be to unmask yourself and cast breakthrough and the other would be to drop imp, dredge during your next draw step, and then breakthrough then.

If you ask me the latter is much better since unmasking yourself and going for the win has 2 problems. 1 is that you lose to FoW on breakthrough, and the second is that there is still a good chance you fizzle. If you just play an imp you are basically guaranteed a turn 2 win, possibly with the protection of unmask if your first dredge is good.

If you have another dredger the only difference is that you could unmask your opponent turn one. The only difference this would make is if they are playing a combo deck you could stop a possible turn one kill on their part.


One good thing is that there is no combo deck in my metagame, and next to none prison deck, so ichorid is doing kinda well.
By the way, in an hand like this :
PImp, Breaktrough, City of Brass, Bridge From below, Golgari Grave-troll, Ichorid, Golgari Thug.
First, if I am on the draw, should I play nothing at my turn to discard golgari Grave-troll or should I risk playing PImp and it being FOW.
If I play first, should I risk playing PImp as well ?

By the way, have anyone found the MU versus merfolk really rough ? FOW, Daze, Wasteland slow you so much.. And then if they have wake trashers, they can kill really fast..

[GoldenCid]

One good thing is that there is no combo deck in my metagame, and next to none prison deck, so ichorid is doing kinda well.
By the way, in an hand like this :
PImp, Breaktrough, City of Brass, Bridge From below, Golgari Grave-troll, Ichorid, Golgari Thug.
First, if I am on the draw, should I play nothing at my turn to discard golgari Grave-troll or should I risk playing PImp and it being FOW.
If I play first, should I risk playing PImp as well ?

By the way, have anyone found the MU versus merfolk really rough ? FOW, Daze, Wasteland slow you so much.. And then if they have wake trashers, they can kill really fast..

In a general way, counter decks are not a big problem because we run ichorid (no countereable) beside cabal therapy, Unmask and LED. I you have such a hand, you have a great chance to combo off via PImp and win the game. This is probably a "great risk great reward" move against counter magic. If you saw an island at the begining doing nothing and discard for your turn is an option to ensurance your graveyard size. However, i'd take the risk... more having breaktrough in hand.

[andrew77]

One good thing is that there is no combo deck in my metagame, and next to none prison deck, so ichorid is doing kinda well.
By the way, in an hand like this :
PImp, Breaktrough, City of Brass, Bridge From below, Golgari Grave-troll, Ichorid, Golgari Thug.
First, if I am on the draw, should I play nothing at my turn to discard golgari Grave-troll or should I risk playing PImp and it being FOW.
If I play first, should I risk playing PImp as well ?

By the way, have anyone found the MU versus merfolk really rough ? FOW, Daze, Wasteland slow you so much.. And then if they have wake trashers, they can kill really fast..

Turn one pimp is a much better play. Even if it gets countered there are 18 cards you can draw that would drastically improve your hand and even if you draw a blank you can just breakthrough to put your hand in the yard. Plus with breakthrough theres another 7 cards you can draw in the form of lands to make sure you have more gas the following turn.

[sunshine]

One good thing is that there is no combo deck in my metagame, and next to none prison deck, so ichorid is doing kinda well.
By the way, in an hand like this :
PImp, Breaktrough, City of Brass, Bridge From below, Golgari Grave-troll, Ichorid, Golgari Thug.
First, if I am on the draw, should I play nothing at my turn to discard golgari Grave-troll or should I risk playing PImp and it being FOW.
If I play first, should I risk playing PImp as well ?


This is very dependent the information you get from your opponent. If you're on the draw and you're concerned about FoW I'm assuming you saw some sort of blue source (meaning you are also open to Daze) - in which case I would just move to my discard and pitch the troll. Think of it this way: suppose you play the PImp and it's not countered, you're going to want to discard the troll on your upkeep and dredge. You only have one land in your hand so you don't lose a drop by holding the land for an extra turn. After an initial dredge from the troll you can then decide if you want to play your land and go for a Breakthrough or the PImp - possibly running the situationally weaker one first as bait. DDDing the troll seems to be the best play to me given the information - assuming this is the first game.

[Parcher]

This is very dependent the information you get from your opponent. If you're on the draw and you're concerned about FoW I'm assuming you saw some sort of blue source (meaning you are also open to Daze) - in which case I would just move to my discard and pitch the troll. Think of it this way: suppose you play the PImp and it's not countered, you're going to want to discard the troll on your upkeep and dredge. You only have one land in your hand so you don't lose a drop by holding the land for an extra turn. After an initial dredge from the troll you can then decide if you want to play your land and go for a Breakthrough or the PImp - possibly running the situationally weaker one first as bait. DDDing the troll seems to be the best play to me given the information - assuming this is the first game.

Agreed. If your opponent is representing countermagic, your best play is to DDD since their highest percentage play is to stop your discard outlet. You then run PImp out to force that play, and use the Therapy you've likely gotten in those two turns to guarantee a Breakthrough.

Running PImp into Force is fine. Running it into Daze is moronic.

As far as the previous hand mentioned, you always cast Breakthrough turn one on the play; and if you have PImp you would have to be a complete retard to cast it first. The only way to stop this play is Force. And if their deck runs Force, then a second turn PImp will beat them any way. There are a lot of decks that can beat a first turn PImp though.

[andrew77]

Agreed. If your opponent is representing countermagic, your best play is to DDD since their highest percentage play is to stop your discard outlet. You then run PImp out to force that play, and use the Therapy you've likely gotten in those two turns to guarantee a Breakthrough.
The therapy you've likely gotten? ROFL. The logic behind your plan assumes way too many things will happen. How do you know the first dredge will find you another dredger? If it doesn't you are just going to sit there having to DDD. If it does what if you then try and drop imp, which gets countered, then your next dredge yields no dredger. You are stuck doing nothing.



As far as the previous hand mentioned, you always cast Breakthrough turn one on the play; and if you have PImp you would have to be a complete retard to cast it first. The only way to stop this play is Force. And if their deck runs Force, then a second turn PImp will beat them any way. There are a lot of decks that can beat a first turn PImp though.

WRONG! Please explain to me how you win exactly if you are removing stinkweed to unmask. You will breakthrough, but not have a dredger. And if you remove the pimp and breakthrough gets forced you lose. You will have no discard outlets and even the slowest of decks will win by the time you can get the engine going.

[Parcher]

The therapy you've likely gotten? ROFL. The logic behind your plan assumes way too many things will happen. How do you know the first dredge will find you another dredger? If it doesn't you are just going to sit there having to DDD. If it does what if you then try and drop imp, which gets countered, then your next dredge yields no dredger. You are stuck doing nothing.


WRONG! Please explain to me how you win exactly if you are removing stinkweed to unmask. You will breakthrough, but not have a dredger. And if you remove the pimp and breakthrough gets forced you lose. You will have no discard outlets and even the slowest of decks will win by the time you can get the engine going.

I'm going to do this once to prove a point, but please don't respond to my posts anymore. It's blatantly obvious that you haven't the first clue as to what you are talking about, and it pains me greatly to have to point out what anyone with the slightest idea should already know. The fact that you've for some reason decided to directly attack the person who has done more with just this one deck than anyone else alone should allow to your ignorance.

In the first example; What fucking difference does it make if you run into a second Dredger? You either:

1. Do run into a second Dredger.
2. Resolve PImp, or
3. Discard the same fucking Dredger a turn later.

If you slow dredge, you get not only the odds of getting attackers, but Therapy as well. They have to stop PImp, and then they have to stop Breakthrough. The odds of them doing both by turn three, in addition to dealing with whatever you have dredged are astronomically against them.

All you lose is one turn drawing up from casting the PImp, and any deck that could Force the PImp will most likely be slow enough, especially with the loss of cards from Forcing, that slow dredging will win anyway.

In example two: You decide to play PImp first. I then discard your Breakthrough. You lose since I am playing oh......let's say a deck that is faster than slow dredging. Like Eva Green. Or maybe a Survival deck that now has time to get their Jailer. Or X-Stompy lands Chalice at one. Or maybe just a Goblins deck that now got their Fanatic on board before you got to use your Bridges.

In any case other than the unknown enemy having a Force and Blue card in their opening seven, leading with Breakthrough is going to be correct. I can't explain it to you any simpler. Since anyone who isn't a complete retard who has FoW will Force the Unmask regardless, you will still have Breakthrough as a draw+discard outlet. Which, yet again, should be more than enough since you already have at least one dredge for five+4 unknown cards to get another, to beat a deck with Force.

[andrew77]

I'm going to do this once to prove a point, but please don't respond to my posts anymore. It's blatantly obvious that you haven't the first clue as to what you are talking about, and it pains me greatly to have to point out what anyone with the slightest idea should already know. The fact that you've for some reason decided to directly attack the person who has done more with just this one deck than anyone else alone should allow to your ignorance.
ROFL. I'm very curious as to what exactly you did for this deck. The only really innovative thing you did was add gargadon to the sb and gargadon is utter trash.


In the first example; What fucking difference does it make if you run into a second Dredger? You either:

1. Do run into a second Dredger.
2. Resolve PImp, or
3. Discard the same fucking Dredger a turn later.

If you slow dredge, you get not only the odds of getting attackers, but Therapy as well. They have to stop PImp, and then they have to stop Breakthrough. The odds of them doing both by turn three, in addition to dealing with whatever you have dredged are astronomically against them.

All you lose is one turn drawing up from casting the PImp, and any deck that could Force the PImp will most likely be slow enough, especially with the loss of cards from Forcing, that slow dredging will win anyway.

Your game plan seems to resolve around playing the slow game in this scenario. Well what if your opponent just drops a turn 2 goyf. That alone with some countermagic will destroy you unless you have amazing dredges. There's really no reason to bank on playing Pimp in your scenario, because you expect it to get countered, and by turn 3 most blue decks will have found a second counter to answer breakthrough.

Basically, your game plan is just to slow dredge. This plan doesn't guarantee a win, and in many scenarios will be worse than the turn one Pimp plan.


In example two: You decide to play PImp first. I then discard your Breakthrough. You lose since I am playing oh......let's say a deck that is faster than slow dredging. Like Eva Green. Or maybe a Survival deck that now has time to get their Jailer. Or X-Stompy lands Chalice at one. Or maybe just a Goblins deck that now got their Fanatic on board before you got to use your Bridges.
Is this actually serious? A fanatic will not stop you at all and stompy decks are too slow. In the other scenarios you would have to assume my dredges suck and both of those decks have amazing hands. This assumption is just as stupid as me saying not to breakthrough because you will fizzle completely and lose, or if you don't fizzle completely your opponent will just crypt away your yard and you will lose.

In any case other than the unknown enemy having a Force and Blue card in their opening seven, leading with Breakthrough is going to be correct. I can't explain it to you any simpler. Since anyone who isn't a complete retard who has FoW will Force the Unmask regardless, you will still have Breakthrough as a draw+discard outlet. Which, yet again, should be more than enough since you already have at least one dredge for five+4 unknown cards to get another, to beat a deck with Force.
It makes no sense to force unmask. If you are unmasking yourself it probably means breakthrough or careful study is coming. If this is the case it is obviously better to let unmask go through and force the breakthrough. The reasoning is as follows. If you force the breakthrough all your opponent gets into his yard is 1 dredger. If you force unmask and he breakthroughs or studies he can fill up his yard with goodies.

Also, you even admit that against FoW your plan would be worse. Well maybe you don't know this, but FoW is one of the most played legacy cards. It is played more than everything that would stop my gameplan is combined. And your plan still has a chance of fizzling.

[loop]

ROFL. I'm very curious as to what exactly you did for this deck. The only really innovative thing you did was add gargadon to the sb and gargadon is utter trash.
The guy's been pushing Unmask, EWitness and Firestorm for ages, I'd say he's had more influence on the evolution of legacy lists than anyone else so far, stop being a clueless dick already.

[kicks_422]

I remember Parcher. He's the guy who's coming in with all the innovations with this deck.

andrew77... Who are you again?

Anyway... I'm loving Gargadon. Such great tech... Why play anti-hate when you can just play through it? Nice inclusion.

[1maarten1]

Agreed last 2. I know Parcher as the guy with the awesome lists i always netdecked :tongue: and the awesome new ideas for the deck. What did you do? trashtalk on people?

~Maarten

[Parcher]

Enough.

I've placed this cat on ignore, since he's now obviously just trolling. No real opponents I've seen are clueless enough to enable these fanciful scenarios.. My lists and wins with this deck speak for themselves. If you don't like my ideas on the deck, don't use them. If you don't like the way I suggest to play the deck, feel free to continue losing. But arguing with a idiot wastes your time, and annoys the idiot. Let him stew in his own rotten little pissed-out world.

[GoldenCid]

I'm considering going back to the 11 lands mana base (3 city, 3 Coliseum, 4 Mine and 1 paradise). I'd like not to cover the free slot with a singleton. I'm considering running the 4th Thug or the 4th unmask main deck.
Thoughts??

[Parcher]

Unmask is at it's best turn one, and running the max increases the chance of this; especially game three where it can yank hate before it's played. They suck to dredge though, and are usually pulled for game two.

A third Dread Return increases the odds of an early win if you get to go off turns 1-3. It also adds redundancy if games go long.

The twelfth dredger I've found is a wash. The times where that fourth Thug is your only dredger in your opening hand, are somewhat mitigated by the times you open a hand with four dredgers, and no action.

Pick your poison.

[1maarten1]

Im using the 4th unmask MD, and its working really well for me. But i can also see that some people want the third DR in this spot. Its just a personal choice i think :wink:

~Maarten

[GoldenCid]

Im using the 4th unmask MD, and its working really well for me. But i can also see that some people want the third DR in this spot. Its just a personal choice i think :wink:

~Maarten

I'm testing this option now. Thug liked me because is an easy hard cast and dredger. Beside its ability of retrieving moebas is owesome.

[NecroYawgmoth]

I am playing the 3rd DR un the random-slot, and I think I would never change it... you can do some broken Witness-Actions with it, and in some long games, I just needed to double or triple DR to win the game now, and not 5 turns later or so...

@ Parcher and all the others: Don't you think the Nr. 3 is closer to the optimum than 2?

Unmask is... dunno, I don't like this card, but I see the reasons why it's good and play it myself, but I think it's the suboptimalest card in the deck besides DA.

sometimes I played 2 Firestorms and 1 reanimate-target in the Unmask slots, and it was pretty good, I really thnk the Unmask aren't the best solution for this slots, but I don't know what could be better... :(

...and the 12th Dredger is unnecessary IMO, and he dredges only for 4, so he isn't needed.


YawG

[indefinite.soul]

Well, I always though that the 3rd Dread Return and a 3rd Dread Return target (specially Empyrial Archangel) is great. But I just assumed that Parcher is a better player than me, then I run only 2 of both. xD

As I PMed Parcher, I am considering to change the 3 MD Unmask for 3 Careful Study, cause I think I am not being able to buy good hands normally (maybe cause I can not figure which is good which is not - I am following the "Draw Discard Land Dredge idea).

How do you guys shuffle your Ichorid deck?

Thanks.

[jimirynk]

Archangel either turns out to be winmore if you have board position and if you don't have board it usually turns out to be a timewalk.

[GoldenCid]

Although a 3rd target for reanimation is confortable it is proben that it is not really necesary except for specifical metagames.

[Muradin]

I got a couple of sample hands for you guys where I've always been unsure whether to keep those or to mulligan.

Ichorid
Golgari Grave Troll
Lions Eye Diamond
Gemstone Mine
Flamekin Zealot
Deep Analysis
Dread Return

Would you keep this kind of hand on the play / draw and if you don't know what your opponent is playing / he is playing aggro/control?
I personally would only keep it if I know my opponent is running a rather slow deck. I'd go draw discard dredge once if I see an Island and then speed things up with LED + Analysis backed up with a Therapy. But against an unknown opponent this kind of opener would be quite risky as even Merfolk might race you if they get a good start, perhaps with a Jitte.

What are you going to do with something like this?

2 Breakthrough
1 Lions Eye Diamond
1 Unmask
1 Golgari Thug
1 Stinkweed imp
1 Ichorid

I am always reluctant towards those no landers but on the other hand you can unmask your opponent and use your LED to discard your hand with 2 dredgers in it to start going. I'd probably mull this away in any case, but what would be your choice when you're on the play / draw...

Finally, what do you do with hands that are like:

1 Breakthrough
2-3 Dredgers
1 Land
Rest stuff like Narcomoeba, Bridge, Dread Returns... but it's 7 cards

You can go DDD and then speed things up with your Breakthrough as soon as you hit a dredger but this might be too slow against Zoo, Elves, Combo and so forth. Again, what's your choice on the draw/play against an unknown opponent?

[Skeggi]

Ichorid
Golgari Grave Troll
Lions Eye Diamond
Gemstone Mine
Flamekin Zealot
Deep Analysis
Dread Return

I'm very new at this so please anyone correct me if my thoughts are wrong. The obvious play with this hand seems: Mine, LED, crack LED, flasback Deep Analysis, Dredge Troll, and depending on whether you dredge another dredger, dregde some more. I don't see how this is good; after this you're stuck with 2 Dredgers in your hand which you can't get rid off. So you could decide to not dredge the second draw even if you did get the dredger, and just hope you get a Pimp? So I wouldn't keep this hand in any case. Also not for the scenario you pictured.

But that's my main problem. Ever since I'm playing with Ichorid in about 30% of the games I end up with a bunch of Dredgers in my hand. Anyone know what I'm doing wrong? I must be making some common rookie mistake.

PImp seems to be so utterly important I don't see anything that does this job that well. Breakthrough is pretty broken, I love that card, but even then you can run dry. LED doesn't cut it as a discard outlet and neither does Colliseum. They're both very good and important, but often they just lack the raw whenever-you-need discard power.

So, when should I dredge and when should I draw? In my games I usually tend to dredge as much as possible and see where it takes me, but as said before, I end up with a bunch of dredgers in my hand I can't get rid off...


2 Breakthrough
1 Lions Eye Diamond
1 Unmask
1 Golgari Thug
1 Stinkweed imp
1 Ichorid

I am always reluctant towards those no landers but on the other hand you can unmask your opponent and use your LED to discard your hand with 2 dredgers in it to start going. I'd probably mull this away in any case, but what would be your choice when you're on the play / draw...


This seems like a waste of the Breakthroughs if you keep this... perhaps draw/go and discard the dredgers hoping to get a land?

[GoldenCid]

I got a couple of sample hands for you guys where I've always been unsure whether to keep those or to mulligan.

Ichorid
Golgari Grave Troll
Lions Eye Diamond
Gemstone Mine
Flamekin Zealot
Deep Analysis
Dread Return

Mmm...i see this hand a bit weak. Although i looks good at first glance, our land is not a colisseum which stop our combo engine. I think i'd mull.



2 Breakthrough
1 Lions Eye Diamond
1 Unmask
1 Golgari Thug
1 Stinkweed imp
1 Ichorid



I'd mull it. No lands, and unmask on ichorid or a dredger is not so good.


1 Breakthrough
2-3 Dredgers
1 Land
Rest stuff like Narcomoeba, Bridge, Dread Returns... but it's 7 cards


Just keep. At worst you can discard at you EoT and explode the breakthough with any dredger in yard.

[Tacosnape]

The problem with the first hand listed is that it loses horribly to Force of Will on the play and Duress/Thoughtseize on the draw. Your LED -has- to resolve cleanly or you're going to lose.

On the second hand, your two Breakthroughs are dead and will be for the whole game. Therefore you'd be virtually keeping a five card hand. A slow five card hand. Therefore there's no reason not to mulligan it to six.

[Kuma]

I got a couple of sample hands for you guys where I've always been unsure whether to keep those or to mulligan.

Ichorid
Golgari Grave Troll
Lions Eye Diamond
Gemstone Mine
Flamekin Zealot
Deep Analysis
Dread Return

Would you keep this kind of hand on the play / draw and if you don't know what your opponent is playing / he is playing aggro/control?

I'd keep this on the draw versus aggro-control since you can DDD and you have some acceleration and useful pieces in your hand.

I'd also keep it on the play since they'll lose this game without Force of Will unless you get horrible dredges. You have mana, a dredger, a discard outlet and a draw spell. You should win this.

Since this hand has all four pieces for the combo, I'd keep it versus an unknown opponent on the play or draw. You aren't going to get many better six card hands.

It may not race Merfolk/Zoo, but it has a decent chance to and you're probably not getting a faster hand by mulling.


What are you going to do with something like this?

2 Breakthrough
1 Lions Eye Diamond
1 Unmask
1 Golgari Thug
1 Stinkweed imp
1 Ichorid

I am always reluctant towards those no landers but on the other hand you can unmask your opponent and use your LED to discard your hand with 2 dredgers in it to start going. I'd probably mull this away in any case, but what would be your choice when you're on the play / draw...

I kept a hand like this once and lost because my opponent had double Force of Will.

I keep this on the draw because it becomes ridiculous if you draw a land, and you can DDD if they show you blue.

On the play, this hand pretty much guarantees you two dredges, but it's slow. Keep that in mind when you make the decision. It's probably not worth keeping on the play against an unknown opponent.


Finally, what do you do with hands that are like:

1 Breakthrough
2-3 Dredgers
1 Land
Rest stuff like Narcomoeba, Bridge, Dread Returns... but it's 7 cards

You can go DDD and then speed things up with your Breakthrough as soon as you hit a dredger but this might be too slow against Zoo, Elves, Combo and so forth. Again, what's your choice on the draw/play against an unknown opponent?

This hand will do against aggro-control as you can DDD and try to speed it up with a Breakthrough. It also becomes insane if you draw a discard outlet, especially Lion's Eye Diamond.

I probably mull this against combo on the play, since you usually either need a speed hand or some form of discard to beat them.

Any non-combo hand might be too slow against Aggro. But trying to mull into the combo is suicide. It depends what's in your hand besides Breakthrough and dredgers, but that has a chance on the draw with some decent dredges and/or a nuts draw. On the play I'm a little less optimistic.

[Meister_Kai]

Hey, I just recently took a liking to this deck and wanted to know a little more about it. Most of this I guess is ruling questions, but since this is the thread for this decklist i'll ask them here instead of spamming the rules place with a million questions.

First, in how many ways can dredgers interact with breakthrough? Can you cast breakthrough, dredge 6 with a troll in the yard, discard troll with pimp, and keep dredging with troll?

I realize this deck can win on turn one, but on average what turn does this deck pull off the win games 2/3, or any game without LED?

Is there some hardcore in-depth explaination about all things ichorid deck? I know there is a starcity article or two about vintage that are both premium (can't read those obviously) so any point in the right direction would be awesome.

Thanks for any help.

[Roman Candle]

First, in how many ways can dredgers interact with breakthrough? Can you cast breakthrough, dredge 6 with a troll in the yard, discard troll with pimp, and keep dredging with troll?

No. Breakthrough has to finish resolving before you can use Imp. However, you can dredge a different dredger, even one dredged to the grave by Troll.

[GoldenCid]

I'm probably going to play dredge this weekend and i know that there is another dredge in the metagame which is doing it good. Considering the posibility of a mirror match which would you think is the best sideboarding??
I was thinking in the idea of not diluting the strategy but i believe that this guy runs line in his SB:

-4 Unmask
-2 LED
+3 CoV
+3 GG

Would be right for you??
Other thoughs??

[alderon666]

Won a 34 players championship this weekend.

The list is here. (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28210)

I play Woodfall Primus and Cephalid Sage because I need answers to random shit game 1 and Sage always seemed more straightforward "win now" unlike Eternal Witness. Woodfall is great with bridges and sometimes I just won by destroying all lands my opponent had while keeping a 5/5 trample and a couple 2/2's.

The sideboard is rather random, looking back it looks too diluted. Never got to test the Greater Gargadon thing, so didn't play it.

Not gonna do a full report, but the deck played smoothly mulliganing to oblivion just 1 or 2 times. Had 1 turn first turn kill, but the average was 2 or 3. Had some dragged out games but for those mostly I had disruption.

Unmask on game 3 is bonkers! Won me the finals all by itself. Unmask for Brainstorm seeing 2 Tormod's Crypt and then Cabal Therapy for the win.

I just love careful study. I does too much, even tough sometimes it leads to bas mulligan decisions. It just drew me a bunch of good stuff throughout the whole tournment, turning ok hands into "I win next turn" hands. Found me some sideboard cards, and is great against countermagic as it is just another solo threat unlike Breakthrough.

Played against all kinds of decks. White weenie, WW with green, Enchantress, Merfolk, Canadian Thresh, BW control, Aggro Loam, Goyf Sligh. Some matches I just felt dirty because they were just so easy, on others my opponents just mulliganed into oblivion trying to find the hate. Got my graveyard removed just 3 times I think. And as you can see Unmask maindeck doesn't seem that good as the meta isn't blue/comboish enough, raw speed just seems like the better way to go.

[Amon Amarth]

What cards did you hit with Woodfall Primus? Would Witness+Vapor or Firestorm been better?

[Tacosnape]

Well, he played Enchantress. I guarantee Woodfall Primus was a monster against Enchantress. Taking out two Prison/Moat/Elephant Grasses in one fell swoop is ungodly good.

Beyond that, no telling. Interesting list. It looks similar to mine at the moment. (I don't run the Primus main, I run Witness over Sage because it's just better, and I've got 4 Careful Study/4 Breakthrough main), but I've got the Unmasks and Firestorms all in board like you.

I agree with the assessment that Unmask is at its absolute best on whichever postboard game you're on the play. (Which is usually game three, as Ichorid's best games tend to be game 1 and worst games tend to be game 2 when they go first and you have to play Guess The Hate.)

[alderon666]

It hit lands, Aether Vial, Propaganda... it served also as a finisher when Sage or Zealot wasn't around. It feels safer when I have an out to random enchantments and artifacts. My meta is stupidly random, so you need to be prepared to anything, and having an out to almost anything sounds good in my books.

I tested Witness with the one-of Firestorm, but the deck had the bad habit of not having lands in play when I had Witness as a Dread Return target. The Sage is indeed worse, but it's more straightforward and has a lesser chance to fizzle. I already have an out to Propaganda effect so the return a LED to attack seems unecessary.

[Amon Amarth]

Yeah that makes sense. I playtested against Enchantress and man is that matchup really annoying for Ichorid. They have so many stupid enchantments that screw you over.

[Muradin]

I already wrote a lot of PM's and tested LED Ichorid in a bunch of matchups and I still can't understand why people are running special creatures to bring back with Dread Return. I used to do so as well because I was simply netdecking, but after having played this deck in more than 20 tournaments up to now I feel the additional Dread Return targets like FKZ, Sage and whatever people are running are not really necessary and fall in the category "danger of cool things".

This deck already has 4 excellent Dread Return targets that are our best dredger as well at the same time: Golgari Grave Troll.

For me a ~ 10/10 regenerating fatty was always enough of a beefy creature to win my games with. Running more Dread Return targets than this may allow for many cool tricks but they clog up your opening hands and lead to unnecessary inconsistency. The deck is working so much smoother without them and without additional Dread Return targets there is no need to run more than 2 Dread Return in order to make them useful.

I still like running special metagame creatures in my board for matchups that might occur (Woodfall Primus vs Enchantress, Staxx and the Mighty Quinn) is a good example. I see the usefulness of these creatures, they solve specific problems.

After having tested Unmask a lot I also have to admit that I really like it, especially for its awesomeness in game 3. I am however only running them in my board as my MVP sideboard card because they are often weak when you are on the draw and don't support the deck's main game plan effectively: Dredge, win.

[JeroenC]

I'm still running FKZ and Eternal Witness. FKZ allows me to speed up my goldfish, which matters often enough. Witness allows me to take back any kind of protection (or Breakthrough to combo off) I might need at that time. At any other time, it's just one dead Dredge. Though I wish it were black.
In my sideboard, I run one Ancestor's Chosen, because it can just steal games against a lot of decks.

So what does your decklist look like? Cause it sounds like you have a couple more slots than "us", so I'd like to see.

[Skeggi]

If you'd drop the DR-targets, what would you prefer to get in return? An extra Golgari Thug, or a discard outlet like Tireless Tribe?

[snackfu]

What is everyone's thoughts on the Reveillarks that have been popping up in some lists lately?

[nodahero]

I am pro-Lark... He is a very vicious critter... Bring him back off of a Return... Sac him to Therapy... bring in two massive trolls and win... (ideally) Otherwise he is still a very good defensive and even occasionally offensive critter.

[GoldenCid]

What is everyone's thoughts on the Reveillarks that have been popping up in some lists lately?

You mean Llark MD?? I don`t discard him...i think that "Llark Dredge" has an aggro philosophy while "Witness Dredge" has a combo one.

[Skeggi]

I've been testing a bit yesterday and I don't really like Eternal Witness. Somehow I often draw her, which is useless, and I've replaced her with a singleton Tireless Tribe, which suited alot better. Am I crazy, completely playing Ichorid wrong, or just had bad luck? The times where I could DR Eternal Witness I was already winning and I'd figure I might just as well DR a Troll, because he's bigger.

[GreenHornet]

I ran a list very similar to the primer at a local tournament and went 5-0 placing first with it.

I was rather pleased with the eternal witness over cephalid sage (it feels great to breakthrough twice in a turn). I've run tireless tribe in the non-LED version, but after I got LED's any extra discard he provides seems redundant. Especially with cabal therapy and unmask. Most of the time a reanimated witness finishes the game same turn she comes in.

In hindsight, there was a lack of hate, combo, and blue in general, so unmask main wasn't as hot as it could have been. Though it wrecked a few people's opening seven optimized a slow start a few games.

[Muradin]

I've been testing a bit yesterday and I don't really like Eternal Witness. Somehow I often draw her, which is useless, and I've replaced her with a singleton Tireless Tribe, which suited alot better. Am I crazy, completely playing Ichorid wrong, or just had bad luck? The times where I could DR Eternal Witness I was already winning and I'd figure I might just as well DR a Troll, because he's bigger.

That's why I cut both Witness and Flame Kin Zealot. Troll is already in the deck and he is our best dredger while being a big regenerating creature when he gets Dread Returned. There is no need to add any more reanimation targets to the list because there are already quite good ones in it and while they may win faster or come in handy to make sure you definitely win and don't give your opponent any outs those situations are rare.
In all those tournament games I've played thus far I've only lost once after having dredged two thirds of my deck and getting a Troll, several zombies and therapying my opponent three times. This was against Ad Nauseam Tendrils going for a Mystical Tutor in response to my first therapy while he had LED, land, Lotus Petal in play. However even those rare scenarios don't work anymore with the new M10.

I simply don't get why people still think that discarding all of our opponents relevant cards via therapy (Swords to Plowshares, Wrath of God, Engineered Explosives, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Pernicious Deed, Tarmogoyf, ...), getting a bunch of zombies and a regenerating fatty backed up with Ichorid beats is not enough to win 99% of all games.

I see the purpose of special Dread Return targets for special matchups. For example you might have all of this but be on one life against burn and Ancestors Chosen will make top decked burn useless or Woodfall Primus owns Enchantress / Staxx. But preboard I personally made the experience that no further Dread Return targets are required to win the vast majority of all games. Perhaps people who are bad at hitting with Cabal Therapy need those reanimation targets to make sure they win.

So when you don't play FKZ and Sage/Witness 2 Dread Returns is definitely enough and thus you got many slots to add some consistency to the deck. You get less opening hands that are full of FKZ, Dread Return, and Witness...
For me it works and added a lot of consistency. You can't win turn one any longer without FKZ and most games are like grinding your opponent down but as a tradeoff the deck works more stable and the flashy wins were overkill most of the time anyway.

[Skeggi]

A major issue I have with Eternal Witness is that once you DR her, you need mana to cast whatever utility you've gotten out of your graveyard. That's mana I often don't have. Now, Parcher came up with a report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14350) where he used 2 Sadistic Hypnotist (http://magiccards.info/od/en/159.html) in his list. That looks pretty cool to me, although I often fail to be able to DR turn 2 or 3, but I guess I'm just lacking experience there. Another point is that you need your bridges to be able to really screw your opponent, but it looks very strong if you can pull it off.

[Joe_C]

Parcher: Excellent job at Vestal (now did you get the hypnotist idea from me or elsewhere? I posted it as a suggestion months ago in the nond led thread and have been toying with it myself). How did you feel about abanoning the quick win with zealot? How did you board against your matchups(specifics were not in the report)

[Parcher]

Vintage lists have been running Hypnotist for a good 6-8 months pretty regularly. After some significant testing, I found adding the 4th Coliseum put me to an acceptable place where I comfortably got him into play by turn three on the play, and two on the draw (the extra card let me activate Coliseum earlier) on a semi-regular basis. Since you can never guarantee enough Bridges, and/or Narcos to hit for twenty in these cases, Hypnotist is often better. All you need is two total creatures (PImp and Tribe count) and two Bridges to empty their hand. The win is most often easy after that. You do leave yourself open to a raw topdeck, but the odds of it being relevant, like Keller's Natural Order, are slim.

With the current deck skewed heavily against Control and Combo, I needed a sideboard able to slow the game against Aggro. The Tribes, Grudges, Firestorms, and Chosen came in for Unmask, LED, DA and a Hypnotist in these. Against Control, I left in Unmask instead of Firestorm, and only brought Chain instead of Tribe/Grudge if they ran Black. The extra City was not only to help with the off-color sideboard cards since I replaced it with a Coliseum, but also as a twelfth lands in some matches.

I did miss Witness for post board games though. He might go back for one Hypno, since if you can get either during an early combo you'll likely win. But mostly to grab Firestorm or Chain post-board. He might just be getting greedy though.

[Tacosnape]

Hypnotist is interesting.

Generally, while I find it not a guarantee to swing for the lethal 20 with a Flame-Kin Zealot, that even swinging for 10-12ish and having access to a Cabal Therapy in the yard is enough to assure a win. And if I do get a mass explosion, I'd much rather have the Flame-Kin. And early, often I'd rather have the Witness than either one.

That said, the neat thing about Sadistic Hypnotist is that he's a black creature. This means he pitches to Unmask and fuels an Ichorid when it's necessary to do either, rather than sitting there like a useless lump.

EDIT:
@Skeggi: Not necessarily. If you're out of mana, just Witness a Lion's Eye Diamond, play it, and flash back Deep Analysis with it.

[NecroYawgmoth]

okay... T1-Tech... hmmm Hypnotist looks very good, and 2 looks like a good number, because 1 is more or less random...

I can understand, that you don't need an FKZ if you strip their hand with Hypnotist, you can win easily and don't need to win now, but I can never understand how you could cut Witness.

It's an AWESOME card, that can do anything, and postboard she is just more better, isn't there any other card to cut to put Witness back in other than Hypnotist?

...just a little question, how about switching 1 City against 1 Paradise?


...and the very important question for me:

your new Sideboard looks very good, except that I don't like Grudges and I am missing the Wispmares somehow, but...

you don't play Needles, and you don't play Gargadons or stuff like that, you are only playing 2!!! Grudges, and that can't be enough to fight Crypts/Relics, so how do you handle them?


YawG

[Parcher]

As I said, I'm not totally sold on the list as is. My goal with this specific version was to maximize the odds of an early Hypnotist, and to see how effectively that won games. Especially in cases when FKZ would not have been lethal. I was confidant with the list in this tournament though. And since this was the first tournament with this, changes will likely be made to improve. The three Dread Returns will stay for certain, though it pained me to move an Unmask back to the board. The third proved relevant in just too many completely different situations for me to ignore any longer.

In conjunction with PImp and Tribe, I didn't think I would need more against Crypt/Relic, since they can often beat Crypt alone by slow dredging. I was wrong about this using only two Grudges however, and found myself bringing in Chain as well to force their hand. Some compromise will have to be made between the two. Or, if I go back to a Witness+Firestorm in the main, I'll just go back to using Gargadon since my win percentage against Aggro will go back up game one. I didn't miss the Wispmare since the combination of Therapy and Hypnotist got rid of any problematic enchantments, or the ability to effectively use them, before a need to destroy them. If I had faced Leyline, I would have regretted, it though.


EDIT: With Zoo gaining in popularity, and the Landstill decks adding Path to Exile to their sideboard as well to supplement Plow, I think Gargadon is going to become more important to run. Especially since to compete with Combo, CounterTop, and Merfolk, they usually won't have room for direct graveyard hate.

[GoldenCid]

what is the real purpose of the 3BB guy?? Do you want to run a "combo control deck" more than a "pure combo"??

[Joe_C]

what is the real purpose of the 3BB guy?? Do you want to run a "combo control deck" more than a "pure combo"??

ichorid is aggro/combo. Making it into a aggro/combo deck that is consistent and stable is what Parcher is looking for, as well should you.

[GoldenCid]

The three Dread Returns will stay for certain.


I don't know if this is necesary needed. Running sadistic + EW besides de FKS we can use 1 DR targeting the circunstantial creature. If it's EW we go for the combo if not because it's sadistic just screw your opponent for the win...i think that although this is a bit risky i has sense and deserves be tested. I will -1 Unmask, +1 SH for the test.

And on the other hand...what did you lead to make this side??


sb
1 city of brass
1 ancestor's chosen
1 unmask
2 tireless tribe
2 ancient grudge
4 firestorm
4 chain of vapor

[alderon666]

The thing is Sadistic wins/slows the game with acess to very few creatures. FKZ needs a lot of good stuff to be lethal.

Sadistic looks very interesting against control decks that play few threats and rely on countermagic. Against any deck if you can blow their hands before they can play some gamebreaking card, you're in a pretty good spot.

I think it's a matter of taste/metagame. I like the trio FKZ/Sage/Woodfall Primus, it does all I need them to do but kill creatures.

[AcidFiend]

I think it's a matter of taste/metagame. I like the trio FKZ/Sage/Woodfall Primus, it does all I need them to do but kill creatures.

Why Woodfall over Angel of Despair? Angel takes out creatures as well, is black and flies. Does persist really outweigh those? Sure if you can Woodfall you could hit two non-creature targets, but that is probably unnecessary and requires a sac outlet. Also the most common removal is StP which renders persist useless anyways.

I've playtested against my friends Enchantress deck a bunch and Angel is always a house. Flies over moat, destroys Elephant Grass/Solitary, is less easily chumped (except by Angel tokens, though if they have a bunch of those, you've probably lost).

[Damnosus]

I think being able to take out 2 troublesome permanents is very relevant. There are times when a single propaganda/ghostly prison has gained the opponent enough time to play a second one. Additionally, Primus combos better with the deck: you can make upwards of an additional 8 zombie tokens with the guy. Often I will Dread return him, nuke a land, sac him to therapy, nuke another land (meaning an epic top deck might not be playable), ac him to a second therapy (thereby ruining the opponent's hand) and produce enough tokens with him to swing for the kill the following turn. I rarely ever swing with the primus, and if I get enough tokens, opposing creatures are not an issue.

[GoldenCid]

I'm not sure if a third creature is really needed. At first glance the solid options are: EW (for me, CS for other) and FKZ. This is because of gravehate post side, ichorid MUST win the first game of a round and i think that this both creatures are really needed.
About the third guy...well i'm not sure which is the best, probably the answer would be none, but i have my choise for the side of sadistic hypnotist. This is because its ability is "always useful" discard your hand and put tokens (or not) or your opo hand and put tokens (or not) if something that is always good, maybe (depending on the situation) not optimal, but good. Woodfall/DAngel are good option as well but if we don't want an awful permanent we have the choice on the therapies, unmask or, in my case the sadistic (our "unmask" with legs).

[alderon666]

Why Woodfall over Angel of Despair? Angel takes out creatures as well, is black and flies. Does persist really outweigh those? Sure if you can Woodfall you could hit two non-creature targets, but that is probably unnecessary and requires a sac outlet. Also the most common removal is StP which renders persist useless anyways.

I've playtested against my friends Enchantress deck a bunch and Angel is always a house. Flies over moat, destroys Elephant Grass/Solitary, is less easily chumped (except by Angel tokens, though if they have a bunch of those, you've probably lost).

It just has better synergy with the Bridges/Cabal Therapy and sometimes you can just use to trash all your opponents lands and deny him any chance of victory. Trample also is relevant, if you trashed 2 non-creature permanents why does your opponent has Moat? In the end of the day it's just about 2 bring > than 1 and persist. While being the most common used removal, it's not in every deck and it makes the Angel looks just as silly.

[Ssbm Rocks1]

When you get the hypnotist out and get your opponent down to 1 or 2 cards, do you sac the hypnotist to himself (to get zombies) or do you keep him alive and make then discard again next turn?

[Joe_C]

When you get the hypnotist out and get your opponent down to 1 or 2 cards, do you sac the hypnotist to himself (to get zombies) or do you keep him alive and make then discard again next turn?

you would hopefully have a bridge from below or two in your grave when you use hypnotist. sacking tokensto bring them to hopefully no cards then if they hold onto their drawn card the next turn, bringing back ichorids for a swing then sacking them to hypnotist and gaining tokens again would be the preferred way to win

[Parcher]

Unless it's after turn four I'd sac him to get all the cards.Odds are that their last card is a bomb, or a land. And Therapy can get a bomb.

[GoldenCid]

So...our disruption equip is:

4 Cabal therapy
3 Unmask
1 Sadistic hypnotist
?

@Parcher: Are you running EW again together with SH? or you are still running 2 SH?
What about the FKZ?

[dlevsApiJ]

I still don't understand why you want to replace the Witness + FKZ with 2 Sadistic Hypnotists. The situation where you dont get enough tokens with FKZ is very rare, and if the situation will appear, you can DR a big troll and sac the tokens you gain to CT. Hypnotist < Topdeckskills/Brainstorm/Ponder/SDT/...
Also, the lack of Witness won't let you return SB cards when you need them, I don't see why you would play without this possibility.

Running Tribe together with PImp, instead of GG, to fight Relic/Crypt is very interesting. I will certainly test it.

[Wargoos]

I must say I loved the sadistic guys, for being so sadistic and they are most of the time always a win.
But I've also encountered some situations in which I so badly wanted the witness and had to think harder to get my head out of without.

Also playing around crypt is piece of a cake.
Slowdredging often forces them to break it in unrelevant situations, and the tribes enable a better "slow-dredge" game.
I really like the sideboard, but want to try those gargadons when my playset arrives.
Chinqui

[1maarten1]

I have been looking at the last few posts, and i see that Witness has been getting nothing but compliments. Right?

But i think u could go -1 FKZ, +1 Sadistic? If you keep 2 DR targets then 2 DR is fine to run i think, but if you want to keep your FKZ then i think its necessary to run 3 DR. But then you will have to cut 2 cards from the MD, which seems hard in my eyes.

Also: @Parcher in your list you played at the tournament you changed the manabase a litle, and you got a city in your SB. Please explain this to me, since i dont see anything wrong with 1 U.Paradise, 4 Mines, 3 City's and 3 Coliseums. Anyhow, i like the Sadistic guy after some testing, but im just not sure what to cut from the MD in order to run him.

~Maarten

[Wargoos]

In order to play the slow-dredging method, you often need about 2 mana on the table, to get it working correctly.
Knowing that I guess Parcher always boarded an additional land when he boarded the tribes.

Why couldn't it be a sb Paradise instead of the sb city then?
I always believed that the rainbow base is built on following order: first come the mines, then the cities and if you really want more land, you put in some copies of paradise/citadel.
Also that the paradise bounces back can lead to the situation that you can just
have 1 land in play on a certain turn, since it takes away a land drop from you.
If that is so relevant I can't tell.
And it could also be possible that he just haven't thought about the paradise and therefore went with the city.

[dlevsApiJ]

I have been looking at the last few posts, and i see that Witness has been getting nothing but compliments. Right?

But i think u could go -1 FKZ, +1 Sadistic? If you keep 2 DR targets then 2 DR is fine to run i think, but if you want to keep your FKZ then i think its necessary to run 3 DR. But then you will have to cut 2 cards from the MD, which seems hard in my eyes.


~Maarten

Sadistic Hypnotist isn't good as a 1-off, because you wanna return him as soon as possible. Fkz (and Witness) are mostly played when you will win the same turn, so they may come later. But the Hypnotist must come very soon to let you win. When you play only 1 off it, the oppo has to much time to play his good stuff before it hits the (battle)field.
Another reason for me to stay at Witness + FKZ, Hypnotist has to come early, FKZ doesn't. So a slower hand is weaker if you pick the Hypnotists.

I always played Witness + Fkz with 2 DR, and I really don't want a 3rd, it would be a wasted slot in my opponion. Why do you think with FKZ, a 3rd DR is needed?

[Wargoos]

But the Hypnotist must come very soon to let you win. When you play only 1 off it, the oppo has to much time to play his good stuff before it hits the (battle)field.

But thats just correct for aggro decks.
Against aggro-control/ control he has quite the same impact coming after turn3.
And 3 turns is like an eternity for ichorid.

And while I agree on everything else you said, I don't see the bad thing about the SH being just good when coming fast.
Icho is aggro-combo so we have to use the resources to win as fast as possible. Bein able to wreck even combo, bein our worst mu, is another advantage of SH. Problems with aggro shouldn't be that big anyways preboard.

FKZ seems really like a bit overkill.
When you have a horde of token, you should win anyways since you can disrupt the opponent just to well with your therapies.
Maybe it's just a matter of playstyle but I'll stick for now with the hypnotists until Parcher comes up with something new gamebreaking.

[Parcher]

Wow. This is actually a useful, intelligent discussion on this thread. Bizarre.

You guys have actually given me a few new things to consider. Though I agree with most of what has been said.

The two points I want to address that I've done some thinking one are:

The change in the manabase was to optimize early use of Coliseum. To have four in case of an early LED basically. But also to use with a second land, especially post-board. While Undiscovered saves on life, and the bounce is occasionally relevant, it doesn't help get two for the Coliseum. Plus, the life is less relevant with the new rules changes, and hard-casting Thug post board is a big bonus.

The other thing is considering one Witness and one Hypnotist. With three Dreads now, it's not all that often that I will hit Witness, and not be able to continue the combo, which will usually give access to Hypnotist. So when I get to DR, either I get Hypno, and Mind Twist them, or more often than not, I get Witness who allows me to keep dredging, get Hypno, and Mind Twist them. Plus I still get the flexibility of having Witness.

Still in testing though so results are not set.

[1maarten1]

Wow. This is actually a useful, intelligent discussion on this thread. Bizarre.

You guys have actually given me a few new things to consider. Though I agree with most of what has been said.

The two points I want to address that I've done some thinking one are:

The change in the manabase was to optimize early use of Coliseum. To have four in case of an early LED basically. But also to use with a second land, especially post-board. While Undiscovered saves on life, and the bounce is occasionally relevant, it doesn't help get two for the Coliseum. Plus, the life is less relevant with the new rules changes, and hard-casting Thug post board is a big bonus.

The other thing is considering one Witness and one Hypnotist. With three Dreads now, it's not all that often that I will hit Witness, and not be able to continue the combo, which will usually give access to Hypnotist. So when I get to DR, either I get Hypno, and Mind Twist them, or more often than not, I get Witness who allows me to keep dredging, get Hypno, and Mind Twist them. Plus I still get the flexibility of having Witness.

Still in testing though so results are not set.

Agreed on almost everything you said. And after some hours of testing on MWS with the following changes in the MD written in the primer:
-1 Firestorm
+1 DR
That was one of the changes i was already considering.
-1 FKZ
+1 Hypno
This seemed a bit weird for me, because i really liked FKZ in some matches, but sometimes i really wanted something else.

Hypno and Witness worked good for me all day. I also thought about taking 1 Unmask out of the MD to throw in the Hypno, so that FKZ would still stay in but i didnt like this to much due to becoming more vuneruble to combo. Since i really want to win G1 i did it as i said above and it worked out nice for me. About the manabase: I understand u wanted to maximize the chances, but i dont feel like playing a 4th Coliseum since i have had days where I had a perfect hand, only 1 coliseum so i couldnt cast my PImp. Im pretty satisfied with my manabase atm.

The only thing that im not sure of is my sideboard.
4 Firestorm, 4 CoV, 1 Ancestor are all slots that are determined to stay IMO. Which leaves 6 slots. I havent seen myself board in Wispmares alot lately so i think they can leave the board, but only if i get a good replacement. Then cutting out our big red guys, i just got settled on em and liked them alot, but your side also makes alot of sense :laugh: So i guess i'll have to do some further testing on the SB, but the MD is feeling good for me atm.

~Maarten

[dlevsApiJ]

I see FKZ not as overkill, but as winning 1 turn faster. Thats always better.
Why ad a card that's good if you are already fast? Sometimes you don't win in the first 3 turns, and I don't like losing to random topdecked Moats, topdecked Humilitys, topdecked Burn Spells, topdecked EE (with A. Ruins), Survival into answers, Cantrip into answers, Tutor into answers etc.

I can't think of a situation where I could do one of the following actions:
1) Return Fkz (or Witness into Fkz) and win.
2) Return Troll and rip there hand with CTs, wich gives the same effect as SH, but it leaves you with a bigger creature, and them maybe with some unimportant cards in hand that arent worth therapy'ing.

Yesterday, I friend of my, playing EvaGreen, faced ichorid in the final of a tourney. It was the 3rd game, and he had a Tombstalker + Jitte, a Engineered Plague on Horror and one on Illusion. He would win next turn with his Stalker, but with his last dredge, the Ichorid player dredged FKZ, DR'ed it and swung for the win. If he played SH here, he had lost.
1-0 FKZ-SH. Woohoo!:laugh:
No, but serious, in this kind of situation (oppo is going to win with creatures next turn), it's again FKZ > SH.

I really don't see where SH is better than FKZ.



But thats just correct for aggro decks.
Against aggro-control/ control he has quite the same impact coming after turn3.
And 3 turns is like an eternity for ichorid.

Even an eternity can be reached.


And while I agree on everything else you said, I don't see the bad thing about the SH being just good when coming fast.
Icho is aggro-combo so we have to use the resources to win as fast as possible. Bein able to wreck even combo, bein our worst mu, is another advantage of SH. Problems with aggro shouldn't be that big anyways preboard.

FKZ / Troll + CT did wreck combo as hard as SH does.


FKZ seems really like a bit overkill.

Sometimes he is overkill, sometimes he gives you the 1-turn-faster-kill you need, that's just good, not?


When you have a horde of token, you should win anyways since you can disrupt the opponent just to well with your therapies.

Yes, that's just why SH isnt needed. CB can do his work.




Wow. This is actually a useful, intelligent discussion on this thread. Bizarre.

You're welcome :cool:


The change in the manabase was to optimize early use of Coliseum. To have four in case of an early LED basically. But also to use with a second land, especially post-board. While Undiscovered saves on life, and the bounce is occasionally relevant, it doesn't help get two for the Coliseum. Plus, the life is less relevant with the new rules changes, and hard-casting Thug post board is a big bonus.

I just played 4 Coliseum, 4 City and 4 Gemstone mine. I never missed DR 3.
(I used to play 3 City and 1 Paradise, because I though I only play the Paradise if I don't have any other land in my hand. But when you have Coliseum + Paradise + PImp (+dredger), the Paradise screws you up.)
12 land is better after Sb'ing so you have to mulligan less because of a-hate-without-land-hand (I keep playing GG I think (need to test the white PImps), and hardcasting Thug/moeba is to good), and now you have less problems with getting black/red/white mana plus you have 4 Coliseum to go off with (i love that card).

But this is just what fits your playstyle I think.


The other thing is considering one Witness and one Hypnotist. With three Dreads now, it's not all that often that I will hit Witness, and not be able to continue the combo, which will usually give access to Hypnotist. So when I get to DR, either I get Hypno, and Mind Twist them, or more often than not, I get Witness who allows me to keep dredging, get Hypno, and Mind Twist them. Plus I still get the flexibility of having Witness.

Mind Twist (with SH) < Kill the same turn (FKZ)
Mind Twist (with SH) < Mind Twist (with therapy's)+Big body
Especially if the first option requires 1 more card to be good enough (DR 3).




Agreed on almost everything you said. And after some hours of testing on MWS with the following changes in the MD written in the primer:
-1 Firestorm
+1 DR
That was one of the changes i was already considering.
-1 FKZ
+1 Hypno
This seemed a bit weird for me, because i really liked FKZ in some matches, but sometimes i really wanted something else.

Why did you want something else? Because he was overkill in some situations? In others he saved your ass, remember (or not, because you could lose to topdecks that you don't see when winning with FKZ)?


Hypno and Witness worked good for me all day. I also thought about taking 1 Unmask out of the MD to throw in the Hypno, so that FKZ would still stay in but i didnt like this to much due to becoming more vuneruble to combo. Since i really want to win G1 i did it as i said above and it worked out nice for me. About the manabase: I understand u wanted to maximize the chances, but i dont feel like playing a 4th Coliseum since i have had days where I had a perfect hand, only 1 coliseum so i couldnt cast my PImp. Im pretty satisfied with my manabase atm.

Witness + FKZ would have worked either.


The only thing that im not sure of is my sideboard.
4 Firestorm, 4 CoV, 1 Ancestor are all slots that are determined to stay IMO. Which leaves 6 slots. I havent seen myself board in Wispmares alot lately so i think they can leave the board, but only if i get a good replacement. Then cutting out our big red guys, i just got settled on em and liked them alot, but your side also makes alot of sense :laugh: So i guess i'll have to do some further testing on the SB, but the MD is feeling good for me atm.

I think you also always need to put Unmask 4 in the board. It's to good G3 (or G2 if you lost G1). The other 5 slots should be 4 GG/4 Tribe(need testings, which of them is better. I think less then 4 Tribe (maybe 3 is still good enough) is not enough to fight Crypt/Relic, since you Always wanna see a PImp/Tribe against them. With 6 of them, the change is to low I think. The last slot could be Wispmare, as Leyline answer 5, and against Enchantress/other deck that pack naughy enchantments. Thats how my Sb is. 4 GG, 4 CoV, 4 Firestorm, 1 Wispmare, 1 Unmask, 1 Ancestor.

[1maarten1]

Why did you want something else? Because he was overkill in some situations? In others he saved your ass, remember (or not, because you could lose to topdecks that you don't see when winning with FKZ)?

I just like to test new options :laugh: And since there were slots i didnt want to remove from the MD i tried cutting FKZ. But even as this said I think you made your point.

I guess its just the Hypnotist that is the overkill, not the FKZ :tongue:

I will cut the paradise for a city again, just because the lifeloss is less relevant with the new rules. (like Parcher stated earlier).

So its almost back to list in the primer, but with some very little tweeks:rolleyes:

About the GG vs TT... Dont know, i will have to test this. But im actually pretty satisfied about the rest of the board.

~Maarten

[Parcher]

This is funny to have such contention over what boils down to one card difference in the deck. I never claimed that Hypnotist was stictly better than FKZ, just that he would be in certain situations. And that he's better when not used for his original purpose. I did run the list to find out if it was at least viable though;andI believe that it is..In certain metagames will be better than FKZ. The sideboard was also an experiment, and I admitted was not that good as-is. Too wishy-washy with two of this and that, which is always the bane of this deck.

Basically the opening list is good enough that I needed to try new things, or switch decks due to boredom.

[GoldenCid]

Basically the opening list is good enough that I needed to try new things, or switch decks due to boredom.

My philosophy beyond the boredom is to make the finest deck. Let's say...a dredge with MD flexibility. I think that the triad: FKZ + EW + SH is good enough for that aim.

[alderon666]

The problem is, there no real optimal setup. Depending on your metagame SH may be a beast, but in my metagame I would never dare playing without Woodfall Primus MD for the fear of random shit.

All we can do here is discuss the possibilities, the upsides and main uses of each card.

I, for example just love Careful Study, it's such a good card (most of the time) and as my meta isn't blue as the sky it just gets me free wins against most aggro decks.

[GoldenCid]

My conceptual basis for constructing an "optimal deck" is to suppouse that i'm going to play "blind". I mean, in an open tournament in which i could find anything. Off course, i can't run all the possibilities in cards we have but what i can do is to choose those card that could fit in the most of situation, random or not. Conserning that, cards like unmask for example are great because it can give you information about your opponent's deck. Here, SH is "always useful" (but not always optimal) beyond the numbers of card of your opponent's hand because it's bidirectional. That's why i choose him. Because i think that in any metagame it would be useful although not always optimal as i say. I feel that SH fills better this "blindness" than WP (which is a great guy, i admit). I don't know if i'm being clear...

[Parcher]

I agree that there is not a likely perfect configuration regarding the DR targets. If there were, it would probably require three, (two of one, and one of the other) and I can't believe that there will ever be room for this without sacrificing something else.

One thing people need to remember with Hypno; there's a reason why I stress turn two, or three on the play(which is very reasonable game one). That is that he also discards lands. How many other cards in the came effectively do that. Not only is it incredibly effective at stunting your opponent's plan, this fear of topdecks for losing the theoretical turn from not having FKZ is often unwarranted. It's highly likely that they will top whatever answer they need, and be able to effectively implement it on two or less lands. And if they do draw the land they need, they have to do it before to spell since you'll just Therapy it otherwise. These are odds I'm willing to take.

[NecroYawgmoth]

I tried the deck with 2 Hypnotists and 1 Witness (3 Dread Returns), 2 Unmask on the last Tournament, and i found the Hypnotists very ...bad.

They won me 1 game against TES, but this was all they did...

I wished so often that it would be an FKZ, an Unmask or something other, but not SH

..have any other guys of you done some testing with them?

YawG

[thejack]

In a tournament I once tested running Auriok Salvager and Pyrite Spellbomb in my side. Sadly enough I was not paying attention that day and lost horribly to the crappiest decks even pre sideboard. So I can’t confirm if this works or not but it does doge all non grave hate.
There are some really obvious disadvantages,
1) You need both cards to be in your graveyard + Dread return
2) You need 2 mana to get starting
The first problem is just what it is, just dredge enough. The second problem can be resolved by first dread returning your Eternal Witness and grab a LED.
So in the end it has at least some boundary conditions, being: 2 DR, 1EW, 1 Salvager and the spellbomb must be in the grave.

And even if it isn’t the best solution (which it probably isn’t) it is really cool to win a game like this.

[GoldenCid]

In my opinion cutting FKZ in favour of SH is an error...

[dlevsApiJ]

..have any other guys of you done some testing with them?



Nope, it would be a waste of my time.

You just don't test Reach Through Mists instead of some Brianstorms in your ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh as well.

When you look at the Pro's en Con's of the cards, I don't see why you would play SH. There is only one rare* situation where he is better; when you won't have enough Bridges to be lethal + your opponent his topdeck is a card that saves him + he has a land in his hand, which he needs to cast his ass-saver. Am I right? In every other situation, CT's or just FKZ will end the game in your favor.

(*I think mythic would be a better word here, since the situation is very, very, very uncommon!)

[alderon666]

Nope, it would be a waste of my time.

When you look at the Pro's en Con's of the cards, I don't see why you would play SH. There is only one rare* situation where he is better; when you won't have enough Bridges to be lethal + your opponent his topdeck is a card that saves him + he has a land in his hand, which he needs to cast his ass-saver. Am I right? In every other situation, CT's or just FKZ will end the game in your favor.

(*I think mythic would be a better word here, since the situation is very, very, very uncommon!)

Say you go for the turn 2 win, you flip 2 Moebas and 2 Bridges. Then sac a Moeba to Therapy and Dread Return to SH and win. FKZ doesn't do nothing for you in that situation, and that happens a lot to me.

I don't even like SH that much, but your comment was just biased.

[dlevsApiJ]

Say you go for the turn 2 win, you flip 2 Moebas and 2 Bridges. Then sac a Moeba to Therapy and Dread Return to SH and win. FKZ doesn't do nothing for you in that situation, and that happens a lot to me.

I don't even like SH that much, but your comment was just biased.

Troll does.

And the therapy('s) will help him.

[Raptor]

Has anyone encountered some problems against merfolk ?
Their 8 daze effects, 4 force of will seem to have slowed me a lot. Especially when the opposite player see two-three of these per game..

Also, the beatdown of waketrasher can't be really hard, and they can slow you a lot with a single wasteland or a jitte.


I've been thinking about this side, less vunerable against graveyard hate / counters.

3 Tireless Tribe
3 Firestorm
3 Ancient Grudge
4 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Woodfall Primus

I would most likely side in Tireless tribe / firestorm to stall a bit some aggro deck and recover easier from graveyard game 2. And then side them out for game 3.
Ancient grudge /chain of vapor could be really relevant game 3, when you're trying to go faster, and can help you play agressive on opposite relic / Crypt.
By the way, I've never seen myself siding in Chain of vapor, except if they were playing black, where I would have prefered Wishpmare or ray of the revelation... I'm doubting it's power...

[GoldenCid]

I did...i choose wispmare to crash their Pganda and gargadon to jump their grave have...off course CoV comes in too. I think it´s a hard match but maybe using SH main deck it could be better.

[Manhattan]

I played this deck today and it wen't rather smoothly despite my doubts. Still the only games I lost were games against double crypt. One of those I nearly won because the player was kinda bad but he had Jund Charm to back it up. I can't really see any viable strategy to win against double Crypt without Needle (which I had in my board due to incompleteness but didn't draw). Is this a calculated risk that you just have to accept when choosing this deck?

[Raptor]

I played this deck today and it wen't rather smoothly despite my doubts. Still the only games I lost were games against double crypt. One of those I nearly won because the player was kinda bad but he had Jund Charm to back it up. I can't really see any viable strategy to win against double Crypt without Needle (which I had in my board due to incompleteness but didn't draw). Is this a calculated risk that you just have to accept when choosing this deck?

Many people have move and no longer use needle.
Personally, I prefer Ancient grudge over needle. If you have ancient grudge + putrid imp /tireless tribe + dredger, it's almost sure that you win. You can easily play the ancient grudge for 2 on a crypt and then let it sit in your graveyard to destroy another crypt. And if you dredge into it, ancient grudge is not useless.

[NecroYawgmoth]

...The problem with Needle is, that you need to know what to say (Crypt or Relic), its an 50/50 Chance, and that makes Needle bad...

...sometimes your opponent Boards other hate than these 2 and Needle is somewhat useless to fight through it.

I don't like Ancient Grude, because 2 Mana to cast could be too expensive, and if the opponent has an Relic or Crypt you need to dredge into Grudge, to force the opponent to blow up his Crypt/Relic, and with bad luck, you can lose very much cards you need for the win.


I like Gargadon... It is good to force the opponent to use Crypt/Relic, and if the opponent hasn't these cards, it enables combat-tricks and saves Ichorids

...only downside is that in most cases, you need it in the opening hand to have use for it :(

YawG

[Manhattan]

I didn't want this to turn into a "why Needle is bad" discussion, but a "how do you battle double Crypt without Needle" discussion.

[Scopeye]

I didn't want this to turn into a "why Needle is bad" discussion, but a "how do you battle double Crypt without Needle" discussion.

You slowroll them and force them to use crypt or grudge them forcing to crack the crypt

[blueneverfails]

soo I guess ill post it since none of you dredge players have found it out.....
Earnest is the winner of legacy championship in indy with dredge..... hopefully his decklist will come out, being a person who knows earnest well, this is his second high profile win with dredge, him being the first dredge person to ever get pro points with this deck.

[beastman]

Most people know it already, but very few people take Gencon results seriously. U/g threshold won it last year, and madness won it the year before that.

[Manhattan]

You slowroll them and force them to use crypt or grudge them forcing to crack the crypt

I tried that but dredging 6 a turn from an eot discarded troll isn't really a clock. It takes about 5 turns or so to get an offensive going without casting drawspells. And modern Dredge only has Breakthrough, Deep Analysis, Dread Return on Sage, Colliseum or Carefuly Study.
Breakthrough is dead because if you cast it your opponent uses the first crypt in response and the second afterwards leaving you with no graveyard and no hand. Dread Return can only be used if you've already gone halfway off which is where you are trying to get to begin with. Deep Analysis is often sideboarded out first with LED's and even if not then cracking an LED for DA and getting crypt in response to DA is game again. Leaving us with Careful Study which is not even a staple anymore in favor of more disruption and Colliseum which requires you to play atleast one other land and Pimp to fire it off under these circumstances. Most likely you'll only be dredging once per turn, be it by Draw, Discard, Dredge or Pimp. And that is just horribly slow from my experience, especially if you have to do the slowdredging over again a whole second time because of the second Crypt. You're goldfishing on turn 10 or so.

I'm not convinced that Ichorid is doomed in this position, I still hope there is a realistic pathway to victory. I just haven't found it yet and I don't think your suggestion is close enough either.

[Parcher]

Most people know it already, but very few people take Gencon results seriously. U/g threshold won it last year, and madness won it the year before that.

Actually you're a year behind since Slivers won last year, but the rest is right.

'Right' being that the tournament is not very competitive, nor is it indicative of Legacy in general.

More directly, I suspect from what I saw that Tuck is still running that awful 7 land, 4 Lotus Petal configuration. I don't care if it wins a Pro Tour, it's horrible.

[Kuma]

Most people know it already, but very few people take Gencon results seriously. U/g threshold won it last year, and madness won it the year before that.


'Right' being that the tournament is not very competitive, nor is it indicative of Legacy in general.

Oh, come on guys. In years past maybe, but I was there and the decks and players were as good as any I've faced. For crying out loud it was an 187-ish man tournament with a top eight of three CounterTop decks, two Canadian Thresh decks, Ichorid, Armageddon Stax, and 42land.dec. If that's not solidly representative of Legacy, I don't know what is. Virtually everyone in that tournament was playing some variation of a DTB, DTW, or Established Deck.

I'm not saying that GenCon should change the way we think about Legacy, but to say those results don't matter is disingenious.

[blueneverfails]

Actually you're a year behind since Slivers won last year, but the rest is right.

'Right' being that the tournament is not very competitive, nor is it indicative of Legacy in general.

More directly, I suspect from what I saw that Tuck is still running that awful 7 land, 4 Lotus Petal configuration. I don't care if it wins a Pro Tour, it's horrible.

And obv since earnest did win it all with his list and you havn't won a thing your comment is just jealousy. His list is still viable, maybe you just need to work on ur skills.

[Manhattan]

And obv since earnest did win it all with his list and you havn't won a thing your comment is just jealousy. His list is still viable, maybe you just need to work on ur skills.

I'm sorry but could you tell me where to find that list?

[Adan]

And obv since earnest did win it all with his list and you havn't won a thing your comment is just jealousy. His list is still viable, maybe you just need to work on ur skills.

Parcher has got 5 Top8 records with Ichorid:

http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?creator=Damon+Whitby

Plus one where he is just referred to as "Parcher":

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=13212

One more guy on his ignore list I guess. :-P

Turck's list is apparently the one from 2 years ago:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=10336

I stopped to watch the replays from his matches when i saw him dredging Lotus Petals into his GY.

[Parcher]

And obv since earnest did win it all with his list and you havn't won a thing your comment is just jealousy. His list is still viable, maybe you just need to work on ur skills.

@Adan: Thanks for the vote of confidence Adan, but DeckCheck is missing several Legacy events I've done well in, though most of the were actually not with Ichorid. I'm sure the same could feasibly be said of Mr. Turck since Eternal format coverage is only a recent occourance in most cases.

More to the point;

Hey! Douchebag nut-hugger!

Learn to spell. Then get off your knees and quit juggling balls in your mouth. Then realize that Legacy Champs is about as competitive as the first six rounds at GP Chicago. Yes, it's possible to run into a pro, but you are infinitely more likely to get that guy running Legacy Martyr of Sands Combo.


EDIT: HOLY FUCKING SHITBALLS!!! I forgot about that 2007 list! One Wonder. Two Islands. No way to access them. Three Reverent Silence. One Forest. No way to access it.

Awsome.

[Manhattan]

Then realize that Legacy Champs is about as competitive as the first six rounds at GP Chicago. yes, it's possible to run into a pro, but you are infinitely more likely to get that guy running Legacy Martyr of Sands Combo.
If this logic is put another way, wouldn't it say: Having the best score of the field after 6 rounds at GP Chicago isn't good?
If placing first at the Legacy Championships is mediocre, maybe we should aim at mediocrity.
However if we could see the list and test it, maybe it would turn out Earnest was only lucky to do good with it, but that would be another argument altogether.

[Parcher]

If this logic is put another way, wouldn't it say: Having the best score of the field after 6 rounds at GP Chicago isn't good?
If placing first at the Legacy Championships is mediocre, maybe we should aim at mediocrity.
However if we could see the list and test it, maybe it would turn out Earnest was only lucky to do good with it, but that would be another argument altogether.

That's absolutely fair. And I have not a single thing deragatory to say about Ernest's skill with the deck. Only that there is no possible way with Ichorid in Legacy that the theoretical advantages of using Lotus Petal instead of Lands can possibly outweigh the vulnerabilites caused.

And what people need to realize about GenCon, is that out of the 187 players, most aren't even regular Magic players; much less Legacy players. And forget being competitive for the vast majority of them. They just happen to be around for a chance of becoming "World Champion" and join in. I had this arguement last year, but myself, Smelski, and Zohar all asked our opponents in the prelims and main event whether they played regularly. The results were something like 8 to 1 against.

[AcidFiend]

Has anyone tested Duress in the Unmask slot?

I never understood why Unmask was the 2nd discard spell of choice. Has anyone done the maths of having Cabal Therapy + Unmask + another black card in opening hand? Can anyone give me their opinions on the following opening hand-situations?

-If you had Unmask + 1 black dredger -> I'd prefer it to be Duress
-If you had Cabal Therapy + Unmask -> I'd rather blindly Cabal than remove it from the game for an Unmask. Again I'd prefer to Duress 1st turn, Cabal 2nd turn.
-If you had Cabal Therapy + Unmask + 1 black card (only dredger) -> I'd be reluctant to exile my only dredge card.
-If you had Cabal Therapy + Unmask + 1 black card (1 of X dredgers) -> Unmask is great here.
-If you had Cabal Therapy + Unmask + 1 black card (non-dredger) -> The non-dredge Black cards are Pimp, Ichorid, DR & Bridge (and extra copies of Cabal + Unmask). The only ones I'd be keen to remove are Unmask & DR (I run 3). Though if I had those and Troll, again Unmask is good.

This seems like a very small window for Unmask to be good. Add to that this deck mulligans a lot, and they'll be times where you're stuck with Unmask + black card you really need, and again I'd prefer it to be Duress.

Why Duress over Thoughtseize? Well personal preference, but there isn't many creatures we shouldn't be able to outrace. You just want to get rid of hate + countermagic which Duress can do.

Any discussions around this would be great :)

[keys]

You would definitely want to play Thoughtseize over Duress in case you need a discard outlet.

[Manhattan]

Has anyone tested Duress in the Unmask slot?

I never understood why Unmask was the 2nd discard spell of choice. Has anyone done the maths of having Cabal Therapy + Unmask + another black card in opening hand? Can anyone give me their opinions on the following opening hand-situations?


Don't forget hands that have no land that produces black mana but are still keepable with LED+DA/Colliseum and/or Breakthrough+Colliseum.

[AcidFiend]

Don't forget hands that have no land that produces black mana but are still keepable with LED+DA/Colliseum and/or Breakthrough+Colliseum.

Ok, that is set of scenarios I forgot which are in favour of Unmask. Altho even then you'd still want the 'pitch' card to not be your only dredger true?

[Parcher]

Another example would be when you can Unmask yourself, and follow it with casting Breakthrough in the same(first) turn without having an LED.

[AcidFiend]

Another example would be when you can Unmask yourself, and follow it with casting Breakthrough in the same(first) turn without having an LED.

Edit:

If this was your hand...

<Unmask, Pimp, Breakthrough, Coliseum, Troll, DR, Mine>

What would you do?

If we Unmask ourselves to play Breakthrough and they counter it? So maybe you have to instead Unmask (DR) and get rid of their Force of Will and play Pimp. Next turn you can Breakthrough. In this situation wasn't Unmask just an unwieldy Thoughtseize?

[slobad23]

Edit:

If this was your hand...

<Unmask, Pimp, Breakthrough, Coliseum, Troll, DR, Mine>

What would you do?

If we Unmask ourselves to play Breakthrough and they counter it? So maybe you have to instead Unmask (DR) and get rid of their Force of Will and play Pimp. Next turn you can Breakthrough. In this situation wasn't Unmask just an unwieldy Thoughtseize?

Well no not really - because you spent zero mana on the unmask allowing you to cast the pimp that same turn. leaving you with the mana open next turn to be able to either cast breakthrough (which you could have done with thoughtseize due to having 2 land i guess) but also allows the option of using the cephalid colliseum on turn 2.

You could say "what is the opponent has a disrupting shoal and a 4 casting cost card to counter unmask... wouldn't thoughtseize be better there?" but that leads us down a crazy path... you could argue for any card going into any deck setting up the perfect scenario for the card...

Unmask (currently playing 2 in my list) is so good purely because it's free. You can complain all you like about having to discard a card to it but hey... it's still too good in this deck to pass up.

[Silent Requiem]

Sorry to cut in here, as I am not a Dredge player. However, I have been reading up on the deck, and although I have never played against it, I am very impressed by it (I like off-beat decks).

Now, I play Solidarity, and I have a couple of Legacy tournaments coming up (my first), and I expect to face Dredge decks. I am considering my sideboard options.

I appreciate that sideboarding against Dredge is not easy. Your sideboard is devoted to making my sideboard useless, so a card or two won't cut it. I need to dedicate at least 6 cards to the matchup, possibly more. What I want is to get the most "bang for my buck", so I don't sacrifice my other matchups.

The easy sideboard would be a mix of Crypts and Relics, but is that really particularly effective? Would I be better off with a set of Leylines, even though I am playing mono blue and could not recast the Leylines after a bounce? Alternatively, I could add a few u/b duals and Extirpates to my sideboard. Or u/w for abeyances and stp (to hold you back until I can combo). What do Ichorid players think my best options are?

-Silent Requiem

[thejack]

Ichorid decks will dump their deck in the grave on their own. So you need a lot less storm to win the game. You could take your chances and just play your own optimal list and try to beat the Ichorid player at speed (I don’t exactly know how many turns solidarity needs to win against a half deck). The sole thing you need to look out for is Cabal Therapy and Unmask (or just getting beaten turn 1 obviously), so you might want to play something like Echoing Truth so they have to waste them on that or lose against it. If you try to combo, do it in the combat fase or after it, if you do it before you might get in trouble.

I don't know if there are any other good blue cards to run that aren't useless against everything else you might encounter.

[Ozymandias]

You might consider Propaganda, which can really slow Ichorid. Extirpate has more utility in other matchups, however. Also, bear in mind that the best targets for Extirpate are not always the same. Sometimes, you might extirpate Bridge From Below; sometimes, you might choose a dredger. Extirpate on Narcomoeba or Ichorid can also be solid, particularly against a nut draw.

I think the best thing you can do, however, is diversify your hate cards, even mixing permanent and non-permanent hate. Almost all of Ichorid's counter-hate is highly specific, like Therapy, Needle, Grudge, or Ray. Diversification erases that problem. For instance, if you have 4 slots, Relic and Crypt will be most effective as a 2/2 split. If you have 6 slots, 2 Crypt, 2 Relic, and 2 nonartifact hate can cover a lot of bases. If you do play Extirpate, however, I would play 4 becuase they are so good in multiples. 1 Relic+1 Crypt as backup would be good.

[AcidFiend]

Well no not really - because you spent zero mana on the unmask allowing you to cast the pimp that same turn. leaving you with the mana open next turn to be able to either cast breakthrough (which you could have done with thoughtseize due to having 2 land i guess) but also allows the option of using the cephalid colliseum on turn 2.

You could say "what is the opponent has a disrupting shoal and a 4 casting cost card to counter unmask... wouldn't thoughtseize be better there?" but that leads us down a crazy path... you could argue for any card going into any deck setting up the perfect scenario for the card...

Unmask (currently playing 2 in my list) is so good purely because it's free. You can complain all you like about having to discard a card to it but hey... it's still too good in this deck to pass up.

I understand the slippery slope of setting up situations which are favourable to argument. That said I actually want to people to respond with hands containing Unmask shenanigans; it might open my eyes to lines of play I wouldn't have thought of.

I suppose Unmask is at its best when you have Coliseum, Breakthrough, no black mana, and don't need to pitch your only dredger. Then you can check for countermagic and fill your graveyard safely.

[gamegeek2]

Very nice primer.

This makes me want to give Ichorid a go next time I sit down to play legacy at casual play or FNM.

[jandax]

Great primer, Parcher. I've recommended it to a few friends. You folks here put up intelligent arguments

If someone could, please take me through a nuts hand. Turn 1 or 2 kills

Opening hand:

LED, DA, GGT, Coliseum, Stinky, Ichorid, Thug

Play the LED first, so as not to tip off the op. on what you're playing. Play Coliseum, and crack LED for UUU. Use UU and 3 life to retrace DA, dredging back your three critters from the opening hand. Lets say you dredge a coupla omeabas that come into play, and have a coupla Bridges in the yard from the dredge, as well as more dredgers in the yard. the last U and U + 1 life from Coliseum to dredge 3 times from another DA in the yard. Now 2/3 of the library is in the yard, with three bridges, all four of your narco's are out, and you have a FKZ and 2 DR's in the yard. You sac three narco's for a DR and one for a cabal for good measure, netting 16 zombies, DR the FKZ and march on over?

Basically, what I am trying to ascertain is that in order to turn1/2 someone, you'll need to flip all of your Narco's and have 3/4 Bridges in the yard as well as a DR/FKZ in order to kill, right? And if you can't do that on turn 1, then you flip cards on turn two, or cast a Pimp if you don't have enough Narcos out, right? I'm still new to the deck, but this primer has helped out tons. A real Ichorid For Dummies it is

[alderon666]

Great primer, Parcher. I've recommended it to a few friends. You folks here put up intelligent arguments

If someone could, please take me through a nuts hand. Turn 1 or 2 kills

Opening hand:

LED, DA, GGT, Coliseum, Stinky, Ichorid, Thug

Play the LED first, so as not to tip off the op. on what you're playing. Play Coliseum, and crack LED for UUU. Use UU and 3 life to retrace DA, dredging back your three critters from the opening hand. Lets say you dredge a coupla omeabas that come into play, and have a coupla Bridges in the yard from the dredge, as well as more dredgers in the yard. the last U and U + 1 life from Coliseum to dredge 3 times from another DA in the yard. Now 2/3 of the library is in the yard, with three bridges, all four of your narco's are out, and you have a FKZ and 2 DR's in the yard. You sac three narco's for a DR and one for a cabal for good measure, netting 16 zombies, DR the FKZ and march on over?

Basically, what I am trying to ascertain is that in order to turn1/2 someone, you'll need to flip all of your Narco's and have 3/4 Bridges in the yard as well as a DR/FKZ in order to kill, right? And if you can't do that on turn 1, then you flip cards on turn two, or cast a Pimp if you don't have enough Narcos out, right? I'm still new to the deck, but this primer has helped out tons. A real Ichorid For Dummies it is

Yeah, but instead of playing the second DA you can just activate the Coliseum. Turn 1 kills are overrated, even if you flip just 1 Moeba and 2 Bridges, you can just Therapy your opponent for any relevant cards and on the next turn overwhelm him with Ichorids + zombie tokens.

The deck offers a lot of ways to go off, most are preety obvious, but let point out one that isn't. Say you kept 7 cards on the draw with Coliseum, LED, Troll and whatever 4 other cards. You can just play the Coliseum, play the LED, crack the LED, now you have 7 cards in the graveyard and can activate the Coliseum hoping to flip a DA FTW.

[Manhattan]

The most common turn 1 kill would be Land+Breakthrough+LED+Dredger.
Put down Land and LED, cast Breakthrough and crack LED in response, dredge 4 times, then find DA, use the LED-Mana to flashback DA, all the while putting Narcomoebas into play and Bridges into the Grave. Then Dread Return Zealot. Sometimes you only find two Moebas. In that case simply flashback a Cabal Therapy for multiple tokens.

[jandax]

Thanks to both of you

I think I was missing the LED-in-response to a Breakthrough. That was my bump in the road

[paK0]

Great primer, Parcher. I've recommended it to a few friends. You folks here put up intelligent arguments

If someone could, please take me through a nuts hand. Turn 1 or 2 kills

Opening hand:

LED, DA, GGT, Coliseum, Stinky, Ichorid, Thug




I'm not that much of an LED player but is this really a keeper?
I see the kill, but if your LED eats a Force/Daze you basically lost since you have only blue mana and no other discard outled. Furthermore you dont even have an Unmask or some other way to protect the LED. If you are on the draw a single Duress can kill you.

[Raptor]

I'm not that much of an LED player but is this really a keeper?
I see the kill, but if your LED eats a Force/Daze you basically lost since you have only blue mana and no other discard outled. Furthermore you dont even have an Unmask or some other way to protect the LED. If you are on the draw a single Duress can kill you.

I would definitly keep this hand on the draw.
Depending on what I draw and if I know I'm playing agaisnt blue, I would probally DDD Golgari gravetroll. Then the next turn you can start dredging and if you hit another dredger you could go for the coliseum then led.

If I'm playing this hand agaisnt blue on the play, I'm not sure if I would keep it. But probally.

[Raptor]

Double-posting to post the sideboard that I'm working on :
3x Tireless Tribe
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Sadistic Hypnotist
3x Ancient Grudge
1x Woodfall Primus
1x Ancestor's chosen
3x Firestorm

The only problem that I've seen with this list is that it doesn't prevent a second top decked Crypt.
In my maindeck I run : 12 land, 12 dredgers, 2 careful study, 3 dread return.

I've lost two round in a ~25men + top8. Both of em was my partner getting two relic / crypt. And both of em top deck'd em then turn before I would have gone off.

I've played agaisnt :
Peace deck (Went off turn 3, and I therapy'd his Peacekeeper, game 2 he had magus of the moat, but couldn't find anything else and I beat him down with 3 narcomoeba.
Mono blue fearies / ninja deck (lost game one because of a slow hand + he had force and Jitte. Lost game 2 because because he had two crypt, he landed standstill.. he then break it so I dredge like 17 cards, and planned going off the next turn, but he top decked his crypt)
Ultimate walkers ( Won game 1, he couldn't do anything because I had a fast hand, game 2 he stomped me with relic and Crypt, and I won game 3 even though I had a slow hand because he was not able to find an answer other then EE)
Dragon Stompy (ID)

Top 8
ANT( I was on the play, won on my second turn, game 2 we both kept a risky hand, I therapy'd his ad nauseum but I manage to find a dredger and I emptied his whole hand on turn three with sadistic hypnotist)
Top 4
UGW Zoo (I kept a 6 hand no dredger, but I had 2 breakthrough / Pimp / 2 bridge and a land so I decided to take a risk and keep it. I did Coliseum, 2 breakthrough to only find one dredger, and I still manage to win. Game 2, I lost to a turn 1 relic, no answer. Game 3, turn 2 relic, which I ancient grudge, then he played jitte on his next turn, which I flashback'd grudge in. Then I dredge in some bridge but he decided to bolt my Pimp instead of his kird ape, I reput ichorid, which got Path'd then he decided to lightning helix some of my token instead of his kird ape again.. and I had a big graveyard with dredges and he was at low life and he managed to top deck his crypt to remove my hard ftw)


I'm thinking of removing 1x firestorm or 1x tireless tribe to put a 4th ichorid in side vs deck with path / STP. Or maybe I should try Greater gargaddon..

[GoldenCid]

@Guitar: I son't know your maindeck composition but running 4x ochorid is very healthy. On the other hand, you can solve the problem of relic/crypt with Greater Gargadon. Have you tested it?? And i don't clearly understand the 2x Hypnotist in your SB. I think that it's a 1x maindeck creature. Do you run unmask??

[Raptor]

@Guitar: I son't know your maindeck composition but running 4x ochorid is very healthy. On the other hand, you can solve the problem of relic/crypt with Greater Gargadon. Have you tested it?? And i don't clearly understand the 2x Hypnotist in your SB. I think that it's a 1x maindeck creature. Do you run unmask??

I've found that 4 ichorid maindeck is a bit too much, especially that you don't really want him in your opening hand.
I've tested Gargaddon one time, but wasn't quite happy with it, much of the time it was just here, staring at the relic, while I had no discard outlet.. I just didn't do anything. I've tried replacing him with tireless tribe / Grudge. It helps me to dodge relic a bit easier while I get some dredge in my yard and when I see ancient grudge the relic is gone.
I put Hypnotist in my SB because there's too many matchup where I would prefer the Sage and zealot, especially game 1 where I need to be fast. Although, it's REALLY nice when you are facing Combo deck or Landstill / planeswalker deck where that hypnotist almost garanty you the game. So that's why I have him in my sideboard. I run two to increase the chance of hitting it early.
I've tried several times the unmask build, but I prefer most of the time a careful study. Even though, it would help me getting rid of relic / crypt game 3, I've founc study to do the job, especially game 1. It often attract Force of will and give you a discard outlet + a chance to dig 2 card to draw more cards next turn. PLus, most of the time, I didn't want to pitch anything to unmask because my hand consisted of Pimp as my only discard, or a Thug / stinkweed as my only dredgers, so I prefered. So it did more often stay in my hand then being good.

That's my take :p

[jandax]

Could any of you who've played this for a long time make an argument for not playing the more stable version lacking LED? I know I could just go to that thread to find out the inner workings of the Non-LED Ichorid build, but what I really would like to ascertain is why folks are divided. Might provide some useful insight

[Skeggi]

From the opening post (Parcher made an excellent primer, I suggest you read it):

4 Lion's Eye Diamond: The terminator line between current Legacy Ichorid decks. Some feel that in a format with decks running Relic of Progenitus main that discarding your entire hand is too risky. They may be correct. But there is no single card that as quickly, cheaply, and efficiently facilitates the entire goal of the Ichorid deck as this one. Basically, it speeds the decks up from a half to a full turn if dropped early. It serves as both free discard, and free mana; making relatively slow cards like Cephalid Coliseum and Deep Analysis active on Turn One. It can be used to pay for additional costs such as Daze, and to pay through inhibitors like Trinisphere, or Ghostly Prison. LED is also excellent counter-magic bait, and in conjunction with an opening Gemstone Mine, can cause a read like a Storm Combo deck. It's uses with Witness are detailed earlier, and cannot be discounted. While some may argue that the risks outweigh the gains with LED, no version without it has put up one-twentieth the results that the versions running four have.
Especially the last sentence helps.

[alderon666]

Could any of you who've played this for a long time make an argument for not playing the more stable version lacking LED? I know I could just go to that thread to find out the inner workings of the Non-LED Ichorid build, but what I really would like to ascertain is why folks are divided. Might provide some useful insight

Speed kills.

[dlevsApiJ]

Even though, it would help me getting rid of relic / crypt game 3, I've founc study to do the job, especially game 1.

So you prefer to play a card that makes your best turn better, over a card that makes your hard turn better? You can easily win G1 without a Study, otherwise you probable are affraid of mulliganing to much, so you keep too bad hands sometimes.


I've found that 4 ichorid maindeck is a bit too much, especially that you don't really want him in your opening hand.

When playing 4 Ichorids and Unmask, you don't have to be affraid of pitching an Ichorid to it, leaving you with only 2 Ichorids left. Ichorid is too good for being a 3-off. When someone plays Extirpate on your Bridges or removes them with a sac-creature, you want as many Ichorids as possible. These are the kind of situations were you need those Ichorids, in the harde games, where Moebas + Bridges + Dread Return + FKZ wont win you the game on turn 2.

[Raptor]

So you prefer to play a card that makes your best turn better, over a card that makes your hard turn better? You can easily win G1 without a Study, otherwise you probable are affraid of mulliganing to much, so you keep too bad hands sometimes.



When playing 4 Ichorids and Unmask, you don't have to be affraid of pitching an Ichorid to it, leaving you with only 2 Ichorids left. Ichorid is too good for being a 3-off. When someone plays Extirpate on your Bridges or removes them with a sac-creature, you want as many Ichorids as possible. These are the kind of situations were you need those Ichorids, in the harde games, where Moebas + Bridges + Dread Return + FKZ wont win you the game on turn 2.

There's a lot of situation that study turns out to be better then unmask, study becomes better game 2 and 3 where it gives you an additional discard outlet that will attract daze and force... I've found that unmask stayed in my hand with no other black card that I wanted to remove like 80% of the time.

However, I'll playtest unmask, and I am still unsure of running gargeddon, I've always wanted grudge over gargeddon. Destroying a jitte can steal a game, and forcing people to crack their hate soon is good too. Not to mention that grudge does something in your graveyard. I'll however switch Sage for Witness. I might try gargeddon thursday to see what it does in my testing, I don't like the fact that he does nothing directly vs a crypt or relic.

By the way, I've never seen extirpate, at least not in my meta. There's one deck I know running it and it because it a Cwish toolbos.

[Parcher]

While there are good reasons to run Grudge over Gargadon, Jitte is not one. It should be virtually impossible for your opponent to get an active Jitte if you have Gargadon suspended.

[Raptor]

While there are good reasons to run Grudge over Gargadon, Jitte is not one. It should be virtually impossible for your opponent to get an active Jitte if you have Gargadon suspended.

True, I just saw this. However, if you don't have Gargadon in your opening, it's an usuless card and a card that you won't be able to use against jitte.. On the contrary, Grudge will help. Plus, when you don't have gargadon in your opening, it helps you find a direct answer to the crypt by dredging into a grudge.
By the way, have any of you considered running gargadon + grudge (3?) in side and siding in for game 2 something like -3 unmask, -1 ichorid, , -2 Deep analysis, -2 Lion's eye diamond if you are facing a deck like landstill on the draw.

[Parcher]

I haven't tried it, but I think that they overlap too much. They both are there against Crypt/Relic/Jitte/EE etc. And they both are relatively slow against Aggro decks. One or the other would have to replace Firestorm, and I'm not comfortable with that switch against Aggro.

[The Professor]

Does a 2009 Gencon first place not qualify Ichorid for "Decks to Beat" category? I've sure lost to this deck a few times with a variety of Archetypes. Just wondering when this deck will move on up. By definition, it must be "played in a variety of metagames, and have proven [itself] in a competitive tournament environment. A deck is not required to be Tier 1 to be included in this forum."

Beatable, of course. Proven to work? Obviously. Just a thought ;)

[FoolofaTook]

DTB/DTW status changes on a regular basis as people put up results with decks and some decks move up and others down. It's purely result based with quantity of top 8's being a key factor.

There are a number of very good decks that would place well in more tourneys if they were played more often and would move up to the DTB forum as a result. They don't get played that often for whatever reason and thus they do not wind up in the DTB section.

[JMG021283]

@Adan: Thanks for the vote of confidence Adan, but DeckCheck is missing several Legacy events I've done well in, though most of the were actually not with Ichorid. I'm sure the same could feasibly be said of Mr. Turck since Eternal format coverage is only a recent occourance in most cases.

More to the point;

Hey! Douchebag nut-hugger!

Learn to spell. Then get off your knees and quit juggling balls in your mouth. Then realize that Legacy Champs is about as competitive as the first six rounds at GP Chicago. Yes, it's possible to run into a pro, but you are infinitely more likely to get that guy running Legacy Martyr of Sands Combo.


EDIT: HOLY FUCKING SHITBALLS!!! I forgot about that 2007 list! One Wonder. Two Islands. No way to access them. Three Reverent Silence. One Forest. No way to access it.

Awsome.

Just a few notes I think you guys should know.
First. The deck Ernest played back in 2007 was my deck.

Second. The deck was unfinished. It was based off type 1/extended dredge and breakthroughs got added(plus or minus few other cards). I got to test it two weeks before Gencon with a few friends at the shop. The main deck is the only thing at the time that was being worked on. We threw a sideboard together 10 mins before the tourney. That was after Ernest decided he wanted to play something fun in the event, after losing his badge an running to go buy one and register for the event 20 mins before.

Third. Parcher, I got to hand it to you, the primer is great. Lets people know how and options to play with deck. I think you're wrong on the lotus petals, that's just my opinion. It's top 8'd in two 100+ people tournaments with lotus petals. But I do believe it should be a option for the deck, even if you don't like it.

Fourth. It's fine if you want to discredit a tourney with 180 people. I think you're right in doing so. Not all of those people are hardcore legacy players. Heck, my guess maybe only a hand full play legacy weekly. All those dumb people from the source(j/k), would never play in a tourney like. I'd safely say out of 180 people there were at least 50(or 22 if you use your 1/8 fact at gp) who knew how to play and play well. I'd take results of a 180 people tourney over a few 40 people tourney's any day of the week. Not to discredit your achievements or those of people around you, I would imagine your a very talented player. But to write off a 180 person tourney as a fluke or not part of the legacy meta is just dumb.




If this logic is put another way, wouldn't it say: Having the best score of the field after 6 rounds at GP Chicago isn't good?
If placing first at the Legacy Championships is mediocre, maybe we should aim at mediocrity.
However if we could see the list and test it, maybe it would turn out Earnest was only lucky to do good with it, but that would be another argument altogether.

Also on a side note. I wouldn't listen to any bit of logic you have, if you can't figure out what to play in your own meta. Honestly, Test the list. It's solid. You'll probably flop on your face with the deck.. Then call Ernest lucky. So be it. But If you can luck your way into two top 8's with more then 100 people you have to be doing something right.

[Parcher]

Third. Parcher, I got to hand it to you, the primer is great. Lets people know how and options to play with deck. I think you're wrong on the lotus petals, that's just my opinion. It's top 8'd in two 100+ people tournaments with lotus petals. But I do believe it should be a option for the deck, even if you don't like it.

Fourth. It's fine if you want to discredit a tourney with 180 people. I think you're right in doing so. Not all of those people are hardcore legacy players. Heck, my guess maybe only a hand full play legacy weekly. All those dumb people from the source(j/k), would never play in a tourney like. I'd safely say out of 180 people there were at least 50(or 22 if you use your 1/8 fact at gp) who knew how to play and play well. I'd take results of a 180 people tourney over a few 40 people tourney's any day of the week. Not to discredit your achievements or those of people around you, I would imagine your a very talented player. But to write off a 180 person tourney as a fluke or not part of the legacy meta is just dumb.

This is extremely specious logic. Using your own example, Chang won Champs in 2006 with U/G Madness, and Diceman won in 2007 with U/G Thresh. Yet no on ever won anything again with either of these decks. Basically ever.

Now that doesn't mean that they weren't tried. Lots of people did sleeve them up, but found that due to either playing against skilled players, or themselves not being equal in skill to the previous pilots, they did not fare well. Actually, no. While the previous statements are true, the decks were at best, sub-optimal. Even last year's CounterSliver win did nothing to change the meta. The same small but devout group plays the deck, with little to few doing well with it(much like Ichorid). A deck definitely does not have to be well-built, or even correctly built to win Champs.

I've played in Champs, as have a great number of players I know. Multiple times. All will agree that it is populated almost entirely by dilettantes.

Then, bringing up tournament size is a pathetic argument. 90% of a Vintage tournaments have less than 60 people. Legacy tournaments get twice that, yet no one weighs these results more heavily in the Eternal community. Pro Tours rarely top 200 players, and yet the point and monetary reward is ten times that of a Grand Prix that has six times as many players. I think it's a much more difficult achievement to beat two 1900+, and three 1800+ Eternal players in a seven round tournament than it is to beat five 1600+ players in a nine round tournament.

[Majin_ZERO]

Im sorry you dont like my list. But my 2009 list is very far for "horrible". The primer is very well written and it gives alot of insight on the decks options. If anyone is curious about why I like Lotus petal so much. Feel free to ask. I assure you that there are reasons behind it.

PS...Thanks for the back up Joe

[Manhattan]

Im sorry you dont like my list. But my 2009 list is very far for "horrible". The primer is very well written and it gives alot of insight on the decks options. If anyone is curious about why I like Lotus petal so much. Feel free to ask. I assure you that there are reasons behind it.

PS...Thanks for the back up Joe

Hm, now I'm curious why you would ask if somebody here is curious.

[Majin_ZERO]

I didnt ask if anyone was curious. Just stating that if they were, I would gladly answer their question/s.....douche lick

[NecroYawgmoth]

then...

...please tell me (us), what makes Lotus Petal so good...???


Everybody seems to play 11 Land and no one says its bad, or anything...

You play Petals and say its a good choice, but why exactly?

What makes 8 Lands +4 Petals better than 11 (12) Lands...


I see that Petal gives you an higher chance of firstturnkills, but game one, you should win anyway, and Petal looks much woorse than additional Lands postboard :(

YawG

[Kuma]

What makes 8 Lands +4 Petals better than 11 (12) Lands...

With Lotus Petals you can do things on the first turn that you couldn't otherwise do. You can cast a Putrid Imp without walking into Daze. You can Breakthrough for one on the first turn making double Breakthrough hands ridiculous. Let's face it, multiple lands suck when you're going for it on the first turn, whether it's a Breakthrough or Lion's Eye Diamond play. Lotus Petal helps alleviate some of that. First turn kills are a huge part of what makes Ichorid a strong deck choice. It's also worth mentioning that there are more Wastelands out than maindeck artifact hate.

On the other hand, Lotus Petals hurt your ability to win in the late game. Perhaps you cast Breakthrough off a Lotus Petal turn one and now six or seven turns later you'd really like to get a Firestorm back with Eternal Witness but you don't have the mana to play it. You wouldn't have this problem if the Lotus Petal was a City of Brass or Gemstone Mine. Ernest doesn't have this problem because he runs Cephalid Sage over Eternal Witness, although I believe Witness is the better card.

I don't think one set-up is significantly better than the other. I think this debate is being brushed under the rug instead of being allowed to run its course. Personally, I don't run Lotus Petal because I'd rather have a better late game, but I don't think it's obvious that running Lotus Petal is wrong.

If I'm missing something incredibly relevant and obvious, then please tell me.

[Parcher]

With Lotus Petals you can do things on the first turn that you couldn't otherwise do. You can cast a Putrid Imp without walking into Daze. You can Breakthrough for one on the first turn making double Breakthrough hands ridiculous. Let's face it, multiple lands suck when you're going for it on the first turn, whether it's a Breakthrough or Lion's Eye Diamond play. Lotus Petal helps alleviate some of that. First turn kills are a huge part of what makes Ichorid a strong deck choice. It's also worth mentioning that there are more Wastelands out than maindeck artifact hate.

On the other hand, Lotus Petals hurt your ability to win in the late game. Perhaps you cast Breakthrough off a Lotus Petal turn one and now six or seven turns later you'd really like to get a Firestorm back with Eternal Witness but you don't have the mana to play it. You wouldn't have this problem if the Lotus Petal was a City of Brass or Gemstone Mine. Ernest doesn't have this problem because he runs Cephalid Sage over Eternal Witness, although I believe Witness is the better card.

I don't think one set-up is significantly better than the other. I think this debate is being brushed under the rug instead of being allowed to run its course. Personally, I don't run Lotus Petal because I'd rather have a better late game, but I don't think it's obvious that running Lotus Petal is wrong.

If I'm missing something incredibly relevant and obvious, then please tell me.

First off, anyone who reads this site knows that I kiss no one's butt, but thank you to Kuma for keeping intelligible posts on this thread coming.

But what I don't understand is how people can miss the obvious drawbacks to replacing lands with Petals. Suddenly Daze is game over if you don't get one of your seven lands. Chalice at zero? Wheee! 8 of my mana sources are shut off. Even oddball stuff like Trinisphere suddenly becomes relevant. Not to mention trying to accumulate additional mana to attack through a Prison or the like.

This is all in addition to the extremely common occourances when your opponent can just FOW, or Thoughtseize your only mana source. And that multiple mana uses from a source are almost a requirement post-board with Ichorid. I've actually added the 12th land to my sideboard, and been extraordinarily happy with it. God help you it you play Needle as well, and give your opponent even more reasons to bring in Artifact hate.

[undone]

First off, anyone who reads this site knows that I kiss no one's butt, but thank you to Kuma for keeping intelligible posts on this thread coming.

But what I don't understand is how people can miss the obvious drawbacks to replacing lands with Petals. Suddenly Daze is game over if you don't get one of your seven lands. Chalice at zero? Wheee! 8 of my mana sources are shut off. Even oddball stuff like Trinisphere suddenly becomes relevant. Not to mention trying to accumulate additional mana to attack through a Prison or the like.

This is all in addition to the extremely common occourances when your opponent can just FOW, or Thoughtseize your only mana source. And that multiple mana uses from a source are almost a requirement post-board with Ichorid. I've actually added the 12th land to my sideboard, and been extraordinarily happy with it. God help you it you play Needle as well, and give your opponent even more reasons to bring in Artifact hate.

I have played a list with careful study and pedal. I find that pedal is extrodinary game 1 terrible game 2 and good again g3 on the play (I have 4 lands in the board along side chain of vapor needle and 3 meta slots)

I find that if you play pedal its insane game 1 because when it works its SUCH a blowout (its also alot more hot with studies in the deck as land or pedal into land or pedal can often lead to T1 dredging) it also makes land pedal breakthrough a ligit play because it enables daze protection even getting blown out by daze is no more blown out than keeping

imp sea/city of brass breakthrough dredger ichorid bridge dread return.

and casting imp getting it forced/dazed doesnt make that much differance its still a long time till you can win, when you were not soposed to cast anything in the first place and just DDD the first turn, and a force still blows you out.

Basicaly it makes out 80/20 pre board matchups more like 70/30 and terrible matchups ( enchantress and a few others) alot more manageable.

The only thing I didnt like about the gencon list was 0 careful study that card is awsome in the deck its so strong especialy on the play

Granted I only played a few games with it but opening with it + land feels like opening hands in vintage with 2 baazars. Opening with just it means you go to 8 discard and hope to get there with a draw spell.

[alderon666]

Who gives a dumb f*ck about game 1? I win those 90% of the times.

Petal hurts you games 2 and 3 when you have to cast Pithing Needle and your only mana source is a Petal... nice huh.

I'm always tempted to play the Non-LED version just because they play more lands, making the sideboard much more relevant and consistenly castable. But the power of LED and turn 1 wins always drags me back.

Just because a deck wins doesn't mean it's the optimal list. Bad decks win games too. But only optimal lists manage to show good results over a longer period of time. Petal Ichorid had 2 results against 200 regular LED Ichorids. So that's really not an argument.

[Manhattan]

The main problem with Petal is that it only does something if you draw it together with a land. Petal but no land sucks big time. And even with a land it's not that ridiculous. It speeds the deck up by one turn in a fraction of the games and slows it down by multiple turns in another bigger fraction.

[Mark Sun]

Hey, I'm very new to Ichorid itself and am still goldfishing/trying out lists on MWS. I have a decent grasp of how the deck generally works, but I am still having a little trouble determining which hands to keep, etc.

I got some of the basic dredge shell really cheap through trade, and my LED's are on the way. I do have a question, though. Has anyone considered Tolarian Winds in this deck? It's an incredibly cheap card and seems to fit in nicely. I searched the thread for it but no one has mentioned it in a post. Thanks.

[Majin_ZERO]

then...

...please tell me (us), what makes Lotus Petal so good...???


Everybody seems to play 11 Land and no one says its bad, or anything...

You play Petals and say its a good choice, but why exactly?

What makes 8 Lands +4 Petals better than 11 (12) Lands...


I see that Petal gives you an higher chance of firstturnkills, but game one, you should win anyway, and Petal looks much woorse than additional Lands postboard :(

YawG

Ok dick bag, I never said that 11 land is bad, or petal is a good choice. I said I like it.

I am all for having this debate, but Im not gonna put up with a bunch of whinny bitches saying that my win was a fluke or nothing but luck. And so far thats what im seeing alot of. And my list is "horrible" just because I run petal? Im sorry....but I like it.

Witness....10 to 1 will grab a breakthrough or an LED to flashback deep analysis. Either way it involves dreadging, so Id rather get a duke out of it if the whole point is to dredge. Thats just me though. Im not gonna say your list is horrible because of it. I just prefer a different route.

Careful study...I really want to play it. But it was the only viable slots available for the other stuff I felt that I needed.

More to come later.

[Raptor]

Hey, I'm very new to Ichorid itself and am still goldfishing/trying out lists on MWS. I have a decent grasp of how the deck generally works, but I am still having a little trouble determining which hands to keep, etc.

I got some of the basic dredge shell really cheap through trade, and my LED's are on the way. I do have a question, though. Has anyone considered Tolarian Winds in this deck? It's an incredibly cheap card and seems to fit in nicely. I searched the thread for it but no one has mentioned it in a post. Thanks.

It's not really good.
Tolarian winds was only decent in the extended version.
Now, you often mulligan to 6 or 5, plus you need to put like 2 land in play and by the time you will be able to play it, it won't really do a full breakthrough, it will often only for 2-3 cards.
Plus, it's not versatile as breakthrough because you ALWAYS discard your whole hand. Also, two lands can be hard to get especially if you are running less then 12 and because wasteland is rempant.
It's often a not so good card and situational imo. Plus it's even more vunerable to Cursecatcher, daze, and spellsnare. I would not suggest running it. If you want to run another draw/discard outlet , definitly go for 2 or 3 of careful stufy

[Mark Sun]

It's not really good.
Tolarian winds was only decent in the extended version.
Now, you often mulligan to 6 or 5, plus you need to put like 2 land in play and by the time you will be able to play it, it won't really do a full breakthrough, it will often only for 2-3 cards.
Plus, it's not versatile as breakthrough because you ALWAYS discard your whole hand. Also, two lands can be hard to get especially if you are running less then 12 and because wasteland is rempant.
It's often a not so good card and situational imo. Plus it's even more vunerable to Cursecatcher, daze, and spellsnare. I would not suggest running it. If you want to run another draw/discard outlet , definitly go for 2 or 3 of careful stufy

Okay, that makes sense :smile:

And right now I'm between Careful Study & Unmask. I love the t1 Unmask + Therapy (although it is a rare hand to have), for reasons I don't have to mention.

Oh, and I've cut a single Ichorid for a "fun creature," so to speak. I know this is pretty common in decks, although advised against (GGT is pretty big I'll admist), where the choices can range anywhere from Inkwell Leviathan to Angel of Despair to Woodfall Primus, etc. The choice for my list is Furystoke Giant, which is in the SB for when cards like Elephant Grass /// Ghostly Prison are in play. I think its Persist ability is great when it comes to generating tokens, and if you don't have the mana /// Wispmare or something to deal with enchantments, this is pretty nice.

[jandax]

Okay, that makes sense :smile:

And right now I'm between Careful Study & Unmask. I love the t1 Unmask + Therapy (although it is a rare hand to have), for reasons I don't have to mention.

Oh, and I've cut a single Ichorid for a "fun creature," so to speak. I know this is pretty common in decks, although advised against (GGT is pretty big I'll admist), where the choices can range anywhere from Inkwell Leviathan to Angel of Despair to Woodfall Primus, etc. The choice for my list is Furystoke Giant, which is in the SB for when cards like Elephant Grass /// Ghostly Prison are in play. I think its Persist ability is great when it comes to generating tokens, and if you don't have the mana /// Wispmare or something to deal with enchantments, this is pretty nice.

I've found that Study is necessary as a 2, maybe 3 of, because of the draw from the 'yard. There have been more times than not where I get the dredge engine going, and then am flipping cards just to find the Careful Study to be able to dredge off the last card draw. It is wonderful to use the UUU from a cracked LED, two of your 11(12) lands can often enough find their way into play, so you can buy it back that way, it isn't a card to cut. I won't argue against adding more hate to the deck with a certain amount of relevance, but in the end, this cannon needs to go BOOM asap, and Careful Study does that more often than not.

[Kuma]

First off, anyone who reads this site knows that I kiss no one's butt, but thank you to Kuma for keeping intelligible posts on this thread coming.

You're welcome. :smile:


But what I don't understand is how people can miss the obvious drawbacks to replacing lands with Petals. Suddenly Daze is game over if you don't get one of your seven lands.

This is true. Turning Daze into a two for one is really bad. But unless you have a second discard outlet or draw spell in your hand you'll probably have your skull caved in by the blunt end of a Tarmogoyf before you draw another one anyway. At least running land over petal means you only need to hit the draw/discard instead of draw/discard and mana.


Chalice at zero? Wheee! 8 of my mana sources are shut off.

Chalice at one is still the stronger play against Ichorid. This is a strike against Lotus Petal, but most decks running Chalice can, and prefer to, cast it for one on the first turn. And if you're going first, an opposing Chalice at zero loses almost all of its power.


Even oddball stuff like Trinisphere suddenly becomes relevant.

Resolved Trinisphere means we're not playing spells whether or not we're running land or Lotus Petal. Yeah, land is better here, but in 99.99% of games we're screwed either way.


Not to mention trying to accumulate additional mana to attack through a Prison or the like.

Fair enough. Although the better play is to Wispmare/Ray of Revelation/Woodfall Primus the thing.


This is all in addition to the extremely common occourances when your opponent can just FOW, or Thoughtseize your only mana source.

Why would your opponent ever Force of Will a Lotus Petal? Thoughtseize is a good point; I didn't think of that.


And that multiple mana uses from a source are almost a requirement post-board with Ichorid. I've actually added the 12th land to my sideboard, and been extraordinarily happy with it.

Why do we need more land post-board? Because we're more likely to be playing the long game? Seems reasonable.

From talking with him, I know Ernest doesn't sideboard untill he sees a card that he needs to board for. He plays game two as balls-to-the-wall as he does game one, only sideboarding for hate game three if he has to. He plays the deck for pure speed, and his list is built to take advantage of that. While I don't agree with him on everything involving Ichorid, he's a better Ichorid player than I am, and I think he has an interesting way of playing the deck.


God help you it you play Needle as well, and give your opponent even more reasons to bring in Artifact hate.

I don't run Needle, and I don't think most people do anymore.

[Parcher]

Chalice at one is still the stronger play against Ichorid. This is a strike against Lotus Petal, but most decks running Chalice can, and prefer to, cast it for one on the first turn. And if you're going first, an opposing Chalice at zero loses almost all of its power.

Dragon Stompy's strongest play is first turn Chalice at zero followed by Magus/Blood Moon. Geddon Stax's is Chalice followed by Prison. Ernest's version straight loses to either of these. Even post-board



Resolved Trinisphere means we're not playing spells whether or not we're running land or Lotus Petal. Yeah, land is better here, but in 99.99% of games we're screwed either way.

True, but I'd at least like the chance. DS is inconsistant. GS has no clock. Both give chances to build up mana, or slow dredge your way into a win.



Fair enough. Although the better play is to Wispmare/Ray of Revelation/Woodfall Primus the thing.

I meant pre-board



Why would your opponent ever Force of Will a Lotus Petal? Thoughtseize is a good point; I didn't think of that.

I would if I knew what version you were playing. It probably won't hapen often though.



From talking with him, I know Ernest doesn't sideboard untill he sees a card that he needs to board for. He plays game two as balls-to-the-wall as he does game one, only sideboarding for hate game three if he has to. He plays the deck for pure speed, and his list is built to take advantage of that. While I don't agree with him on everything involving Ichorid, he's a better Ichorid player than I am, and I think he has an interesting way of playing the deck.

See, this doesn't make much sense. I agree that Ernest is a good player. I agree that Ichorid should be a ball-to-the-walls deck, which is why I have spent so much time promoting the LED version. I don't believe that "playstyle" will ever be a valid argument, however. Nor will "because I like it" ever lead toward relevancy. A bad choice is a bad choice, and sub-optimal decisions are not validated through a modicum of success.

I mean I like hairless, pre-teen, Korean boys. I don't think that this is a valid choice for most though. And certainly wouldn't bang one and go one the forums encouraging others to do the same.



I don't run Needle, and I don't think most people do anymore.

Ernest did.

[Muradin]

So to me this more or less sounds like as if Ichorid doesn't need consistency, it needs power. Ichorid doesn't need answers postboard, it just needs better and more versatile threats. That’s why you basically dismiss the LED-less builds as well as Careful Study and Pithing Needle. For example while Pithing Needle is a solution to Crypt and Relic Gargadon is not as specific and not reactive but proactive. For you the case of for Unmask VS Careful Study is the same.
Careful study is versatile but simply lacks the power to fit into the deck while Unmask fits several roles and also takes the deck towards having a better game postboard. While on the first sight Careful Study seems to be the more versatile card because it can dig for answers, act as a discard outlet and speed up your dredges Unmask can actually do much more. It doesn't speed your clock up but it takes the opponent's best threat and thus gives us more time to dredge into something good while it also goes well with Breakthrough and helps us to force through our more broken cards.

I just think that Needle is very powerful as well. You drop it and their hate is useless. My basic concern about this reasoning is whether this strategy is the best or if a slower LED-less dredge deck is in general the way to go. Ichorid is definitely not a deck most people like to play against. And while many also say it's boring to play I actually enjoy it most of the time. However the decks first and foremost duty is to win matches. Not games but matches and as many of those as possible.
In order to win many matches the deck has to be consistant and while I've probably not played Ichorid in as many tournaments as you have I am quite familiar with the deck. Though I guess there are some more experienced people on this thread.

For me it boils down to one big question: Is the speed (=Power) worth the inconsistency of this deck / Do the advantages outweigh the risks? I actually think that Ichorid is near the best deck in Legacy as it got so many byes but I still feel uncomfortable that I lose quite some percentage of my games just to my deck giving me completely useless opening hands. How often do you experience in tournaments that you mulligan to oblivion? (I know quite well how to mull with Ichorid but I still fail horribly sometimes and seem to get several hands clogged up with several Narcomoebas, Ichorids and Bridge from Below in a row which leads to an instant win for my opponent.

[Kuma]

Dragon Stompy's strongest play is first turn Chalice at zero followed by Magus/Blood Moon.

If they have the ability to play both cards turn one, then yes, that's the Dragon Stompy player's best play. But if I only had the Chalice I'd cast it at one since that shuts off every discard outlet except Lion's Eye Diamond and Unmask and every draw spell except Deep Analysis (and, technically, Breakthrough at one). It shuts off the damage part of Firestorm, Chain of Vapor, Cabal Therapy, Breakthrough at zero, Putrid Imp, Tireless Tribe, Careful Study, and Pithing Needle.


Geddon Stax's is Chalice followed by Prison. Ernest's version straight loses to either of these. Even post-board

Whether you're running eleven lands or seven, Prison is bad news unless you can remove it. This is more a problem with his sideboard than his manabase.

I would [Force Lotus Petal] if I knew what version you were playing. It probably won't hapen often though.

Why wouldn't you just Force of Will what they play off the Lotus Petal stopping two cards instead of one?


See, this doesn't make much sense. I agree that Ernest is a good player. I agree that Ichorid should be a ball-to-the-walls deck, which is why I have spent so much time promoting the LED version. I don't believe that "playstyle" will ever be a valid argument, however. Nor will "because I like it" ever lead toward relevancy. A bad choice is a bad choice, and sub-optimal decisions are not validated through a modicum of success.

Hold on. I'm not justifying his deck choices based on his tournament success, there are numerous posts where I ridicule people for doing just that. And of course "playstyle" and "because I like it" are bad arguments. I was simply remarking that he plays the deck differently than you, I, and most people on the Source, and that it might be worth looking into to see if playing his way might lead to more wins. I've already said I don't agree with his use of Lotus Petals, but I want to take a long look at the way he plays and builds his deck because I think he might be onto something.

[Parcher]

I'm not directing commentary toward you Kuma, but at those whose choices you seem to be defending.

Posting a list, then when questoned on it, replying that "U R all whinny(sic) bitches!", and "Whateva! I do whut ah want!" does nothing to prove your point. Unless your point is that you are unable to defend your choices. Especially when you boldly state that you can do so if only anyone will deign to ask you please.

New ideas pop up so infrequently with this deck due to it's requirements that most have already been tried by somone. If you are going to re-hash something tried and discarded two years ago by everyone who used it, (and I know at least I did. I even opened this thread with Ernest's 2007 list) then you had better have more to back it up than "I wun 'n U all R scrubs", or "beecuz I lyke it."

[NecroYawgmoth]

@ Majin_ZERO

You know... I NEVER said you were a lucker... I NEVER said your list is horrible... I NEVER said your win was a fluke or something...

I just wanted to know, WHY you like Petal, and WHY you think that %&#*§ Petal is better in your opinion than lands, or WHY you play them...

...because maybe we ALL want to improve this deck... and all you do is flaming, and saying mimimi, you are whiny bitches, I play Petals, but I have no arguments for it...

I don't even play CoV, cuz I don't have foil ones, and I scoop against LotV

yeah, maybe you are a lucker, you know, after all, I don't care anymore about your Petals, play with them, luck a bit more, and don't give any statements cuz you don't need to cuz you are the Champ...

:laugh:

@ Parcher

...any new results with Sadistic Hypnotist??? I found them horrible, but I am in an aggro meta... xD

...and how does your SB look like with an land in it? Have you kicked an Wispmare, or is it total different than before?


YawG

[Raptor]

@ Majin_ZERO

You know... I NEVER said you were a lucker... I NEVER said your list is horrible... I NEVER said your win was a fluke or something...

I just wanted to know, WHY you like Petal, and WHY you think that %&#*§ Petal is better in your opinion than lands, or WHY you play them...

...because maybe we ALL want to improve this deck... and all you do is flaming, and saying mimimi, you are whiny bitches, I play Petals, but I have no arguments for it...

I don't even play CoV, cuz I don't have foil ones, and I scoop against LotV

yeah, maybe you are a lucker, you know, after all, I don't care anymore about your Petals, play with them, luck a bit more, and don't give any statements cuz you don't need to cuz you are the Champ...

:laugh:

@ Parcher

...any new results with Sadistic Hypnotist??? I found them horrible, but I am in an aggro meta... xD

...and how does your SB look like with an land in it? Have you kicked an Wispmare, or is it total different than before?


YawG

I've runned Hypnotists in sideboard and it won me 2 games by themself. One agaisnt combo, the other one against ultimate walker.
IMO, they should only be is SB if you decide to run it because they are often Sub-optimal in MD

[jandax]

I've runned Hypnotists in sideboard and it won me 2 games by themself. One agaisnt combo, the other one against ultimate walker.
IMO, they should only be is SB if you decide to run it because they are often Sub-optimal in MD

I have found the same results. Maindeck he's usually fodder for Ichorid or Unmask in an opening hand, and usually a weaksauce target for Return. Yet, depending on the metagame, he will wreck some shit. I run one main, and one in the side, just because he isn't vanilla enough to cut all together, and no matter what deck you play against except the mirror, being able to empty a player's hand before turn three or four is wonderful.

Speaking of the mirror, is one's best option to just go off sooner than later? I'll go back to the front page and check the primer, but it is still lost to me.

[Dark Ritual]

The mirror match for ichorid consists of the following: You remove your opponent's bridges via ichorid recurring or just sacking a narcomoeba to cabal therapy them or you. In the end it's whoever get's the other to 0 life quicker i.e. you rely on ichorid and narcomoeba beatdown while you probably reanimate a gigantic GGT to try to combat your opponent's reanimated fatty. The mirror for ichorid is just a terrible game because it's like a cripple battle. That is all and the only way to sideboard for the mirror is if you actually run leyline of the void which would be retarded IMO cause it goes against this decks gameplan.

Lotus petal is terrible you don't need to accelerate this deck and the fact that it's a onetime use is even worse. I will take city of brass or gemstone mine over petal any day because the card is a one time use which doesn't do you much good if it's the only mana source in your opener or in a LEDless opener.

I'd say hypnotist is a SB card because against aggro it is not that good but it wrecks control or combo. So unless your meta is control and or combo heavy I would keep it in the SB and not MD it.

[Parcher]

I'm still experimenting with Hypnotist. While I agree he is less useful against some decks game one, he is always more useful than FKZ in games two/three. I don't have sideboard room yet, so I'll still keep at least one main.

For right now I'm experimenting with only Chain as Leyline removal. It basically makes Leyline our "Ichorid" deck, and "Ichorid" is played very little currently, so I'm comfortable with that.

[jandax]

I'm still experimenting with Hypnotist. While I agree he is less useful against some decks game one, he is always more useful than FKZ in games two/three. I don't have sideboard room yet, so I'll still keep at least one main.

For right now I'm experimenting with only Chain as Leyline removal. It basically makes Leyline our "Ichorid" deck, and "Ichorid" is played very little currently, so I'm comfortable with that.

Hypno wrecks an agro deck. Verses zoo or gobbo or something, they don't really have any card draw, so dumping their opening hand before they get a chance to is almost a TKO. That is why I keep one MD, there is alot of merfolk, goblins, and such running around here, so worst case he gets eaten by Ichorid which is good meaning I don't have to use a dredger for said purpose

[Mark Sun]

All right, need a little bit of SB help here. I'm playing in a tournament on Sunday with the following MD (very generic, 12 Land + FKZ/Sage over 2 SH, etc):

// Lands
4 [JGC] Gemstone Mine
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [AN] City of Brass

// Creatures
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [DDC] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
2 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
1 [TO] Cephalid Sage

// Spells
3 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
2 [FNM] Deep Analysis
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
1 [RAV] Darkblast
2 [OD] Careful Study


The only major deal is that I have Darkblast as my "3rd Thug" so to speak, which I have liked during the short time that I've tested it. I'm not a great pilot of the deck, often missing some obvious plays, but most importantly not winning quickly enough.

I'll be reading this primer as much as possible tonight to get a firmer grasp on piloting. That said, I was in the process of getting Firestorms/Unmasks/Greater Gargadon for this deck on MOTL, but now it just appears that I'm getting ripped. So, next best things, right?

What I have available for an SB before tomorrow, though:

4x Wispmares (Definitely want at least 2)
4x Chain of Vapor (Maybe 4?)
4x Leyline of the Void (Meta choice, but since I'm going in blind, it seems like I would want some of these)
3x Pithing Needle (Eh... I know it's not recommended, but when you don't have your first 2 SB choices...)
1x Ancestor's Chose (Great tech against burn, had a few games against it last night)
2x Tireless Tribe
1x Ray of Revelation

I can probably get more Rays, but I already have the Wispmare. Ancient Grudges are probably available as well. I also have, for an awkward choice, Chalice, but I don't think it's even considerable for a viable SB card.

[jandax]

Try something like this?

2 Whispmare (you'd only need that many unless you plan on facing a wall of enchantments)
4 Chain of Vapor (4 of, bouncing anything not pro-U will allow you to win. It's the best you can do against things like Leyline or Moat or what have you)
4 Firestorm (AOE/discard. Maybe three would be appropriate)
1 Ancestor's Chosen
4 Tireless Tribe (combined with/en lieu of Pimps, they are walls that let you slow roll or hold off til you can go off)

This is kinda biased against agro (fish/goblins/etc), if you were going into something more combo I'd have some Unmask in the board, 2 or 3, for the tribes, then take back that Ray as well.

Probably doesn't help if you can't get the cards in time, but there will be other tournaments. You'll probably have a good idear of what that meta will be once you have the chance to play there again.