[Deck] Duck Hunt - Steamroll over the competition.

[Di]

So yeah, by request(or should I say pesterance...), I made the UB LandStill thread. Here's the list I currently have, which has gone under a few small changes since I posted the list in the Metagame Change thread. I decided Twisted Abomination was good enough to make the cut too, after analyzing and doing some quick testing. So yeah:

U/B Duck Hunt, by Sexy

4 Mishra's Factory
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
5 Island
2 Swamp
1 Twisted Abomination

4 Duress
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
2 Teferi's Response

4 Nevinyrral's Disk
3 Terror
3 Vendetta

4 Standstill
2 Skeletal Scrying
1 Undead Gladiator

If you need explanations for the MD, look in the other thread. I don't feel like copy/paste it again. Besides, you guys seem intelligent enough to know anyway.

I decided to run 2 Abomination instead of the 1(which would be Dragon), because Dragon comes back, giving you infinate times. I cut Innocent Blood for them. Although I still like Blood, I think Abomination in a way sort of replaces them. Abomination rips land out of the deck, thus increasing your chances of drawing removal. It isn't the same thing, but it's close enough.

Now, my proposed sideboard:

4 Blue Elemental Blast/Chill/my own Arcane Lab techyness
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Stifle
2 Decree of Pain
2 Skeletal Scrying/Deep Analysis
3 Open Slots

Yeah, not so proposed not is it? Well, That's because I'm currently unsure, as I, or anyone else should be. I believe that LandStill isn't at it's peak yet, and that FCG isn't at it's goodbye yet either. Thus, I cannot determine the numbers of what is what right now, due to the fact that the amount of LandStill and FCG is fluctuating currently. I personally feel that if FCG goes down because LandStill goes up, it won't stay down for long, if down at all. This is because I feel, no, I know Duck Hunt will beat those LandStill, causing that to decline. With U/r(w) on a decline because of an increase in Duck Hunt, FCG will make it's way back up the ladder. Not to the status it once was, but it'll make it's way up. I'll admit that FCG has a better match against this than it does U/r(w), but it's still nowhere near good for them. We'll just have to wait and see. I'm thinking Duck Hunt will show up on the 10th, and that might very well decide how this format is shaping currently.


EDIT: Decklist updated

[Ih8every1]

Diablo this version is a bit light on creature control isn't from the U/R/W build of 12 to eight now. Doesn't that hurt Duck Hunt (U/B) against aggro decks? Though it was good that you were able to put in a fourth duress and the misdirections I replaced in my list. Also does anyone have an actual decklist for this deck or does it just depend on ur metagame?

[Di]

Doesn't that hurt Duck Hunt (U/B) against aggro decks?

Yes and no, I guess. Yes because the less removal does effect my matchups against aggro, but no because this decks runs more card draw and thinning, which means I draw more disks faster. Removal can also be run in the sideboard, which would even out the gap between Urw and this.


Though it was good that you were able to put in a fourth duress and the misdirections I replaced in my list.

As I understand it, MisD is in quite a few lists.

[Di]

Double-post. Don't take me as a example :)

I just got a PM from a a team member, tux, who was one of the original developers of the deck. He informed me of a card that we all had a huge, and I mean Fuccillo huge laugh at(for those who remember the dark days of BBS threads...): Undead Gladiator.

Realize what this does before you decide to urinate. It doesn't only find a land, but it finds answers. It's additional card advantage, and it's strong late game in discarding unless spells to find answers. It seems like it's worth some testing.

However, I also see problems with it. The main being the lack of swamps in the deck. You won't be able to activate it sometimes because of this. Another problem is it's almost the same thing as Nether Spirit. A 3/1 for 1BB that comes back. However, that Nether Spirit can also draw cards.

Tux apparently likes it so far. Anyone else who's testing this, try it for yourself.

[Lord McCaffrey]

I'm not really much of a fan of Misd, having had it be thorougly plus/minus to me in the past. Also, it competes with Teferi's Response, which is situational enough as it is. Also in the new meta, with green based aggro and aggro control becoming more popular, I see it as getting even less targets. While you may say its good against randomness, which is often true, I'll be replacing it with 2 Vendettas which are also good vs randomness besides giving the more top tier decks some pause. Personal preference. Thanks so much for pointing out that awesome card BTW (Vendetta).

In other news, I'm going to stick by Obfree's thinking and try out Decree of Pain, in place of 1 Terror and 1 Disk. I see it as shoring up some of Disk's weaknesses, such as having to tap out in your main, not hitting regeners, and being vulnerable during its first turn on the board. Casting cost has me worried, especialy the double black, but i'll see if its too slow. It also has alot of surprise value since they won't expect instant speed mass removal. Not too mention that Draining into a hardcast Decree is enough to get my mouth watering. If it turns to be crud then I'll go back to what I had before. If I miss the other slightly faster removal I could switch out Abomination for it, but I doubt i will.

Undead Gladiator...

Interesting. I'll not be too quick to rip on it since I've played control vs an active Gladiator before, and can testify that its not too fun at all. Granted, I won, but mostly because i was running 4 Fact or Fictions :D . Seriously tho, especially with the high land count this deck runs, which can sometimes clog you, this guy provides a fantastic filter, besides allowing you to trade your worst card for their attacking creature, and theoretically going to the dome. Compulsion is cool, and the uncounterable version is cooler, especially since under a long standstill in the landstill mirror he'll house your opponent. I'd probably run a 1/1 split with Abomination till i figure out which is better, but I geuss its time to head to my random rares binder and start testing. He does tie up an awful lot of your black mana tho.

EDIT:
---------------------------------------------------------
Several Hours of Testing/Iming later
---------------------------------------------------------

Ok, I've basically come to the conclusion that FTK is way too awesome not too run. He is just such a powerhouse vs anything at all with creatures that his spot is almost impossible to fill. Fire/Ice is awesome too, but its FTK that was really missing the most. Without further ado:

// Ubr Darkstill, or Flaming Duck Hunt
// Manabeatz
2 Twisted Abomination
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Faerie Conclave
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Swamp
// Disruption
3 Duress
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
2 Teferi's Response
// Kill
4 Nevinyrral's Disk
3-4 Fire / Ice
2-3 Vendetta
// Draw
4 Standstill
2 Skeletal Scrying
// SB
SB: 3 Flametongue Kavu
SB: 3 Deep Analysis
SB: 3 Perish
SB: 3 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt

Notes on MD:
-Vendetta is superior to Terror, at least as a two to three of, because it combats Masticore, Lackey, Worker, Xantid and opposing Factories. And Dreadgnauts i suppose but, well, try not to get yourself in that situation. Thnx Caulyn for this one.
-Main thing you lose by adding black is that B2B now schools your pretty solidly. If necessary REB's could be squeezed board, perhaps by cutting Deeps for 2 REB's and one Scrye.
-This should still beat Uwr Still, and should go slightly above even vs Ub still, since the added Duress doesnt quite make up for the fact that all your removal can kill Factory, and your removal cycles. If they run Gladiator and get it running quickly tho, your screwed, tho it should be noted that you can run it almost as well as them if it turns out to make the cut. DoP could also sting if your not prepared.
-This should perform signifigantly better vs most aggro and ATS than Ub still, as Fire/Ice more than makes up for losing Misd vs burn, you have more and better removal vs everything else, and you have FTK's board.
-As Twisted only fetches U or B mana, the deck seem to be a little short on red mana. In a few games I found myself unable to cast an early Fire/Ice, if only for a turn or 2. As I certainly don't feel like running Chartooth Cougar or Shoreline Ranger, perhaps room could be made for 1 or 2 more red mana sources. Cutting a conclave or Waste would be the most obvious move, most likely for another fetch. Badlands would work, but the deck is tight enough on blue sources as it is.

Notes on SB:
-Perish is a house vs alot of the decks designed to combat Landstill, tho vs madness, it should be noted, it does not touch any of their madness outlets.
-Crypt, Perish, and DA could all be cut to 2 to make room if your meta allows it.
-Cut my FTK's to 2, and i will personally beat you senseless with my deckbox before i steal your Volcanics and make you go back to normal Ub still.

[Di]

There is a reason red isn't in this deck, and that's because Back to Basics is becoming more prevalent in the metagame with LandStill on the rise. Also, adding red isn't helping out the matchup that you had against LandStill, because you cut your 4th Duress. I'll admit Fire/Ice and FTK are terrific, but I don't think that they are needed to accomplish this deck's goal.

I also removed Misdirection for Vendetta maindeck as well. I had to give myself a huge pat on the back for finding the card while rumaging through commons. I've split the count for 3/3 between that and Terror, and I squeezed Decree of Pain into the sideboard. I also removed an Abom for a Gladiator, which is one of my favorite cards in the deck right now.

However, if you decide to stick with the Ubr "Shot down" Duck Hunt, then your manabase requires a Badlands for Abom to fetch, just like LandStill runs one Plateau for Dragon to fetch.

[Lord McCaffrey]

B2B is becoming more common and is a big issue for Ubr, but I think the manabase can be tweaked to withstand it, at least well enough to give time to find an REB (still need to make cuts, most likely a Deep and Crypt, should strengthen slightly vs ATS/Madness as a side note) or Disk.

I've been doing alot of tinkering with the manabase. I don't dare trim blue mana sources any lower than they are right now, so I don't think Badlands is for me, but i do need a little more red. Right now I'm cutting Abomination to test Undead anyways, so black mana is a bit strained too. A Conclave will probably end up getting cut for another U/B source. Still, I mean its FTK; its awesome... :-/

On Vendetta, I'm not sure I'd push higher than 2. Despite being the Evil STP and thus awesome and all, the life loss is a little severe if you draw multiples when combined with scrying and the usual control pain.

[Jander78]

I would prefer the Gladiator over Twisted Abomination, just for the fact that it can draw multiple cards and you don't loose it when you cycle it. Vendetta is a good card, I really like Decree of Pain as it gets rid of a lot of annoyances and it is nice to have a board sweeper. What about "Devour in Shadow"? Same as Vendetta without the color restriction. The only obvious problem is the fact that it costs BB which may be too much of a problem.

One thing I noticed is that you have a few key cards that cost life to use (i.e. Skeletal Scrying and Vendetta). Both of these cards seem pretty vital, but do you noticed the loss of life to be too substantial and put you on the defensive early on against aggressive decks?

Also, don't you find that you miss the extra pitch counters when facing a control mirror?? This is always the problem I have had with dropping Misdirection.

[Lord McCaffrey]

Devour is ok, but the really nice thing about Vendetta is the 1 mana casting cost. Its just a lean spell. 2cc is kinda packed, and bb only adds insult to injury.

Yeah, i noticed the suicide control thing myself, With only 2 Vendetta, it shouldn't be as big of a deal.

Thing is, vs the control mirror, you already have Duress and an uncounterable card quality filter, 2 things most control decks don't. I think that more than offsets sligtly weakened power in counter wars.

[Di]

Thing is, Vendetta's life loss should almost never be a strain to you. The only creatures with a toughness over 2 in this format are in ATS, and Worldgorger Dragon. FCG has everything set at 1 or 2, so it's not a big problem, and most other aggro are only 1-2 for a toughness as well.


Also, don't you find that you miss the extra pitch counters when facing a control mirror??

You have Duress and more card draw. It should never be a problem.


Despite being the Evil STP and thus awesome and all, the life loss is a little severe if you draw multiples when combined with scrying and the usual control pain.


3 Vendetta is working fine for me currently. I mean, if you're losing life from Vendettas and Scrying, which shouldn't be all that much to begin with, which assumed to be in mid to late game, you should already be in control.

Also, with additional win conditions as creatures, I removed a Faerie Conclave for the 4th Wasteland.

[Obfuscate Freely]

This is pretty late, but if anyone is still interested this is the list I ran at Amrod's last weekend:

//Draw
4x Standstill
2x Skeletal Scrying

//Disruption
4x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
3x Stifle
2x Teferi's Response

//Removal
4x Nevinyrral's Disk
4x Innocent Blood
3x Chain of Vapor
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Decree of Pain

//Boring Lands
4x Underground Sea
3x Polluted Delta
3x Island
2x Underground River
1x Swamp

//Lands that Disrupt
4x Wasteland
1x Dust Bowl

//Lands that Kill
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Faerie Conclave

//Sideboard
4x Duress
3x Annul
3x Coffin Purge (isn't this better than Crypt?)
3x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Skeletal Scrying
1x Dust Bowl

After playing this list in a tourney this weekend and getting beaten by Affinity and then getting completely rolled by a bad Stompy deck, I have decided that better removal is needed. The edicts are fantastic against most of the creatures UR Landstill has trouble with (regenerators and untargetables) but terrible against swarms. Vendetta is the black STP, so I think it's the best replacement. I'll likely switch to some kind of mix of Bloods and Vendettas. 1cc removal rocks!

Decree of Pain was mostly in the list to deal with opposing Decrees of Justice (compare it to Slice and Dice in UR Landstill). The DoPs, along with the 8 manlands and 5 waste effects (plus the extra Bowl in the side) give this deck and advantage versus most other Landstill decks under Standstill. The DoPs also serve as instant speed Infests against aggro, but the 5cc makes them slow, especially without Mana Drain.

Does anyone think it would be acceptable to cut a Disk? This list has 6 sweeper effects, which just seems excessive to me. I think running 3 Disk/2 DoP may prove sufficient. Or would it be preferable to cut down to 1 DoP?

Twisted Abomination is a cool idea, but I'm not sure if I can justify cutting anything for it. I'll test it out. Undead Gladiator is even cooler, since it is another card that could make this deck function better under Standstill than the opponent.

And finally, I imagine one of the biggest points worth discussing here is maindeck Duress. I love the card, and understand how powerful it is, but I loathe the idea of topdecking it when my opponent has no hand, or worse yet, when my opponent has a threat on the board I need to deal with. Landstill is built around the idea that as close to every card in the deck as possible works toward giving you a favorable board position, and this is why the deck can abuse Standstill as a draw engine. Therefore I feel Duress belongs in the sideboard, except in an extremely control-heavy metagame (granted that means they should have been main at Amrod's). What do you all think?

EDIT: I copy/pasted this list and somehow missed Standstills and Scryings. Who proofreads?

[shadowskyno2]

Your list is missing standstill unless for some reason you cut it.

[Lord McCaffrey]

Therefore I feel Duress belongs in the sideboard, except in an extremely control-heavy metagame (granted that means they should have been main at Amrod's). What do you all think?

With the increasing occurences of ATS and Madness, which means multiple B2B's postboard, as well as Survivals in ATS, as well as Landstill ubiquity, I think they should be MD. I only run 3 MD however, both because i needed the room and because it is true that they are weak topdecked late game, except in the control mirror when they provide another answer to Decree as well as avoiding unpleasantries like Response and being an additional counter.

[Di]

they are weak topdecked late game, except in the control mirror

Which is exactly why this deck is being played, derf. This deck is designed to beat control mirrors, and therefore, should be running 4.

[LunchBox]

Your list is missing standstill unless for some reason you cut it.

It's missing something else, too. The list is only 54 cards. Must be some supersecret tech.

[Lord McCaffrey]

Quote
Your list is missing standstill unless for some reason you cut it.


It's missing something else, too. The list is only 54 cards. Must be some supersecret tech

Or Skeletal Scrying. :D

[LunchBox]

Savage.

[Ih8every1]

Hey Obfuscate Freely, I believe you missed 4 slots in ur decklist and these cards help make the name for this deck (StandStill for those who didn't get it). You probably just didn't write it it down probably some reason or another though. I just thought i should point that out.

---------------------------

EDIT:Double post:
Sry about restating what shadowskyno2 has already said about the standstill i didn't see that the missing cards were already posted.


Merged double post. From now on, just edit the original post. jeez, I'm seeing this way too often.

-Di

[Lord McCaffrey]

Just wondering if anyone else is testing out Ubr as opposed to Ub. If you are I'd like to know:

1) What do you thinkis the right balanace between Vendetta/Whatever black removal you run and Fire/Ice. Right now I'm going 4-2, but just wondering if anyone thinks something else woudl work better.

2)What are your thoughts on the SB? Right now mine is
3 Flametongue Kavu
3 Deep Analysis
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Perish
1 Duress
3 Red Elemental Blast

Red Elemental Blast is mostly there vs B2B, but thinking about it I'd only bring in 2 most likely vs Madness and ATS as I'd rather have Perish and FTK, (and duress vs ATS). I was thinking that I could also do something like:
3 Flametongue Kavu
2 Deep Analysis
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Perish
1 Duress
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Stifle
2 Blue Elemental Blast

This would be slightly weaker vs control and green, but slightly stronger vs Dragon and FCG.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Yeah yeah guys, I forgot the draw in my list. Edited.



[Duresses] are weak topdecked late game, except in the control mirror

Which is exactly why this deck is being played, derf. This deck is designed to beat control mirrors, and therefore, should be running 4.

Sideboarding Duress does not make you lose to control game 1, and you will certainly still have the advantage games 2 and 3. This may just be personal preference, but since Duress is a card I simply do not want in my deck in some matchups, I sideboard them in favor of maindeck removal. This also gives me room for Chain of Vapor in the main, which I really like as an all-around utility spell. I think losing game 1 to a random aggro deck because I drew Duress instead of removal is a scarier possibility than having to "get by" without the extra advantage of Duress vs. a control opponent game 1. But like I said, if aggro is nonexistant (as it seemed to be in Syracuse) I would run Duress main.

I'm curious what you guys think about Coffin Purge over Tormod's Crypt in the board. Lord McCaffrey, you mention sideboarding for ATS and Dragon; Purge pulls double duty against both of those decks and cannot be Duressed or Naturalized. Does the mana cost make Purge worse against Dragon? I know Purge is better against ATS, since a single one is likely to take both Squee and Genesis without being foiled by Stifle.

[Lord McCaffrey]

Stifle is an issue, at least with ATS, but the thing i like about Crypt is that it is a permanent, meaning that they have to have both CoV and Xantid/Grid to be able to safely go off. Purge also ties up your mana early and can only be used to kill 2 cards, which means that if they have multiple counters or multiple dragons, its easier to get around. Still, the unduressability and unstifleability of Purge is very nice, as is the fact that all teh cards you want to remove don't have to be in the graveyard at the same time. If I have problems with Crypt I'll certainly give it a shot.

[Di]

Purge also ties up your mana early and can only be used to kill 2 cards

You didn't mention that Purge doesn't remove 3 Squee. That pisses me off more than anything as a Dragon player. If you knock away a Dragon, pfft whatever. If you knock away a couple Squee, I get frusterated.

Also, Purge won't do much against 4 Worldgorger and 2 Verdant Force.

[AlexH]

Being able to remove 3 Squees is far too rare an occurence to be relavant. You get multiple uses out of purge and if you really need to, you can remove 2 squees. Crypt gets bounced and stifled while Purge doesn't go away until it's cast.

[Mad Zur]

Also, Purge won't do much against 4 Worldgorger and 2 Verdant Force.
It does more than Crypt would, unless you dump multiple Dragons into the yard. (And how often do you have to do that?)

Two may not cover everything, but three Purges and six Animate targets match up quite nicely.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Purge won't do much against 4 Worldgorger and 2 Verdant Force.

Any good Dragon player will make Crypting more than one Dragon/Verdant difficult, so I agree with Zur that Purge is likely to do more than Crypt. Remember, to force you to use Purge, they have to cast an animate effect, and once they announce their target Purge will nullify the enchantment. Thus, a single Purge is pretty much guaranteed to trade with 2 animate spells or a Duress and an animate spell, and will remove a Dragon/Verdant or two as well.


Purge doesn't remove 3 Squee.

I suppose that a surprise Crypt could possibly take out several Squees, but again, Purge is guaranteed to take out 2 targets unmolested, and can only be half-Duressed. I'd rather be using my graveyard hate to take out animate spells and Dragons anyway, since Wasteland is such a better answer to Bazaar, but Purge still seems better at removing Squees, especially against a good opponent who knows you have hate.

The point brought up by Lord McCaffrey about Xantid Swarm is a good one, and I admit I hadn't thought about that. I suppose that without Crypt there is a greater emphasis on keeping Swarm off the table, but wasn't that already a top priority? Although with that issue and the mana cost as strikes against Purge, Crypt may be the better choice afterall. Maybe it's a personal preference?

[Ih8every1]

Guys I had just played with the new U/B Duckhunt deck at my local 1.5 tourney and ended doing horrible going 2-2. I played a t2 ravager deck which i smashed, and another janky type 2 deck same result with ravager, and played an aggro Dragon deck played by a friend, and an a Crazy 88 deck with A LOT of blue permision spells.
Now i like Duckhunt a lot but i noticed that without the white the matchup versus Dragon and especially aggro dragon is a lot more difficult. I mean vendetta and edict and stuff like taht is good, but it just not the same to swords especially when ur losing life from Vendetta, and scrying. Is there anyway to improve the matchup against dragon with the new build.
This deck also has problems with a deck packed with about 12 to 16 permission spells, and win conditions like decree of justice and mobilization. Though in this match up Undead GLadiator was MVP, de was just thinning my deck to help me find an answer to all of the Crazy 88's board control. Still even with all the duress, skeletal Scrying, and the undead gladiator i just couldn't match up with the Crazy 88's permision and board control, and When i say board control i mean Mobilization and Humilty. So i believe the answer to a lot of decks crazy 88's or permsion decks would be to revert back to splashing red into the deck like Lord McCaffrey did.
I know I know that this was more like a tournament report, but i thought it could still go here as I'm trying to adjust the deck to beat certain decks. I also realized that many of you will be saying what how did this deck lose to control even though it was meant to be it. Well a Crazy 88 deck was hard enough deck for this deck to beat as it is, but when it also removes most of this creature control to md permission spells makes it that much harder for this deck to beat.
So when you guys read this think about how i can improve the deck to beat certain decks i've mention and give me feedback. Thanks a lot and i know this post wasn't that well written, and is kinda sloppy.

[tux]

I would have to say i am torn as anyone can see the advantages and disadvantages to both purge and crypt. I must say that i like purge. They can duress all day and you will still have that one or 2 in the graveyard. Not to metion your 1cc spells against dragon stifle,vendetta, plus terror and countermagic. But i cant say i would like to take out dragons entire graveyard when they dump 3 squee. But even taking out 1 or 2 hurts them a little and your still working for the same cause. I was testing it out and I have come to the conclusion that all of the removal is targeted and that is bad. Troll is a probelm at least game one depending on your sideboard. I am now running edict/blood instead of terror. edict gives me more answers to dragon and troll along with answers to factories. Terror cant touch troll or factories or anynumber of artifacts and suicide creatures. I just can stand not playing with a way to deal with troll and factories. Any other thoughts??
-tux

[Lord McCaffrey]

@Tux. Right now I'm running red and Decree of Pain. Something about running terror just shouts out scrub to me; I can't help it. Thing with Edict effects is just that they are so bad vs aggro, ATS, and Ug Madness. Ok, um, you just killed Wall of Roots/Skyshroud Elite/Basking Rootwalla. You must be so proud of your self. Here's a Rider/Wurm/Troll. Deal.

Decree of Pain has been most excellent to me, earning major style points by picking off several Ascetics, and, in one match vs Landstill, every Decree of Justice he tried to land, one of them with a hardcast DoP following a Duress. THAT was hot. I ended up drawing out 2 Fow's in a counterwar we both knew I would win (he said after the game that he had to try), then drawing 6 cards. So far my removal has been awesome for me, except that 1 game where he topdecked 4 Phantom Centaurs in a row... after I scryed and got 6 land...but I still managed to scrape it out. Fire/Ice has been ok, tho I've gotten a little irritated at it vs fatties, but the cycling and fast shutdown vs aggro still rock.

So far Undead has been +/-. His effect is decent, but he's so stupidly slow, and I often wish he had a bit beafier body, or a bit higher resistance to STP. God, why couldn't Gigapede have been black? I might have to go back to 1/1 with Twisted, or just 2 Twisted. Deep still houses Landstill mirror, and REB is some good.

[Di]

Now i like Duckhunt a lot but i noticed that without the white the matchup versus Dragon and especially aggro dragon is a lot more difficult. I mean vendetta and edict and stuff like taht is good, but it just not the same to swords especially when ur losing life from Vendetta, and scrying. Is there anyway to improve the matchup against dragon with the new build.

The Dragon matchup shouldn't be ANY different from a Uwr build. You both run X counter, both have X Stifle maindeck., both have X Wasteland. You have Duress, they don't. Vendetta is Swords to Plowshares. Lifeloss is irrelevant when they have no Permanents. Terror is the other replacement to Fire/Ice, except that it kills the Dragon. The Sideboard still has stuff like Crypt and whatnot. If anything, the matchup should be better, so I haven't a clue on what the hell you're doing wrong.

[Ih8every1]

Yeah I thought about it too, but what I really meant was there a way for this deck to beat a hybrid aggro dragon which is pretty good by the way at my tourney. Also does anybody know if i can improve my match up against Crazy 88 and anyother control deck similar to Crazy 88 because that deck gave me problems at my tounament a few nites ago. I have also decided to splash red because i miss F/I, FTk, and REB. I think these cards give the deck an even better matchup against control and helps against agrro too.

[Omgwee]

My deck is the list hes talking about for aggro dragon we just played this tuesday (check Oshwhat Stompy thread). He was forced into doing plays like vendetta a mongrel and the vendetta helps me more than him standstill wasnt an issue i couldnt sneak a rootwalla in but bazaar is just too much card advantage for it to handle never combo'd out against him but never had to.

[Lord McCaffrey]

He was forced into doing plays like vendetta a mongrel

...umm... if he Vendetta'ed a Mongrel and it landed, than neither of the players were very good, because the aggro dragon player could just pitch a card and change its color to black, and the Landstill player shoulda kinda noticed stuff like that.

[Omgwee]

ummm
lol your funny cmon now it never landed but his removal spell was just that useless on me. He knew i wasnt going to combo out, and I knew not to overcommit and force him to use the bad removal on a creature he shouldnt have to. I had 2 cards in hand so It was worth a shot for him cause he was losing life too fast and he had no other options

[TorpidNinja]

I've had a slight infatuation with the Landstill concept ever since its initial inception. A bit of chagrin against naysayers that thought Standstill and manlands would never make it (I defer to Schopenhauer).

In any event, it should be noted that I've had limited success with the archetype in my local tournament scene. Most of my blame goes to my previous build (budget necessity making Volcanic Islands into Shivan Reefs and similarly Faerie Conclaves into Blinkmoth Nexus, ironic no?), but likewise the local metagame.

Inexperienced, underfunded, and favouring creatures more than strategy, I look with shame upon my last 1.5 tourney. My opponents unskilled nature in no way assisted me through a sea of white beatdown complimented by nasty equipment and fat I had no answers for (who plays Dawn Elemental? Who does that?)

This is what makes the Ub itteration so exciting: more control, backed up with larger creature threats and a drawing engine that is actually complimented by Mana Drain. As much as I appreciate the interaction with Decree of Justice tokens and I have trust issues. Not to mention the fact that while one large DoJ may create a large army under Standstill, a much smaller DoP will eradicate it.

A thought: throughout this thread Vendetta has been put on a pedestal. However, considering the efficiency of Decree of Pain and Disk for weenie and other permanent control it gives me pause to think that no one has suggested Snuff Out. It's much more proactive against an early dragon combo, allows you to keep in check with your tempo, saves you life against larger targets, and its ACC makes it worth it even against smaller targets.

That being said, I currently run a version of this archetype built thusly:

4 Standstill
2 Skeletal Scrying
2 Twisted Abomination

4 Duress
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
2 Teferi's Response
2 Stifle

3 Nevinyrral's Disk
2 Decree of Pain
3 Snuff Out
3 Diabolic Edict

4 Mishra's Factory
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Swamp
4 Island

I don't think I can add much more than what has already been said in terms of card choices but I have some limited points:
-I should mention that I feel Undead Gladiator is too much of a commitment to be worth tempo loss, even under a Standstill.
-The "duces" in the counterspell department I feel are rather situational. I could feel just as confident replacing Response with Misdirection and cycling each in concert based on the environment.
-"Only 3 Nevs?! SACRILEGE!" I don't quite feel this way. While the option to Mana Drain them out early is there, the typical weakness to creature rush encourages me to play the Decree as well. An easy answer to untargetables, an answer to the question of regeneration, and in extreme scenarios the mana sink one needs to both clear the board and gain card advantage from a fortuitous Mana Drain.
-Chain of Vapor is dear to me. Aside from increasing the needed blue spell count to a point where I feel comfortable the removal aspect is invaluable. My joys come from casting with an Abomination on my side, begging for the sacrifice of a land. Cycle, sacrifce land, lather, rinse, repeat.

In any event, a longer first post than I expected. Comments and questions are appreciated, especially those coming from fellow Mainers.

[Lord McCaffrey]

Welcome to the Fight Club :D .

With Snuff Out, altho the free is nice, one isn't a whole lot more than free, and while with Vendetta, you'll usually only be losing 2 or so life, with Snuff Out, your going to lose 4 life every time, which is alot more substantial chunk, and this deck already loses enough life as it is.

3 Disk really is fine with Decree of Pain. They fulfill simialar roles, and 6 mass removal would begin to clog you too much, especially since it sits towards the top of your mana curve.

I would probably drop at 1 Swamp for an island, given that you can tutor for basic Swamps with Abomination and you don't want to be stuck without blue mana early.

[Omgwee]

Why not splash white so you can get rid of those horrible removal spell known as Vendetta and Snuff Out. I mean its just a bad trade off IMO. Losing any life to get rid of a creature in a deck thats open to fast creature beats is just suicide.
try -1 swamp -1 Underground sea -3 Snuffout -1 Duress or 1 Twisted abomination and +2 Tundras +4 STP

[ns2973]

I really can't tell you how horrible twisted abomination is. In my testing it has never once been a good card to draw. Why do you need land in a deck that already rund 24-26 ? And at 6 for a bad creature? I really think this card should be re-examined. Why don't you run the blue guy instead? At least he flies.

[Di]

Why don't you run the blue guy instead? At least he flies.


That was my original choice. I really liked him. I put Abom in the decklist because I was tired of having noobs yelling at me :)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

What about Ebony Charm for graveyard hate? Three cards for one mana as an instant. That'll take care of those pesky Squees. Neither of the other abilities is often useful, but they're there, if your opponent somehow gets Worship on the board, or you need to get through a blocking Troll Ascetic and he's at two life.

Also, has anyone considered Hymn to Tourach for this deck? I know the double black is painful, but damn, Hymn is some powerful stuff. Unlike Duress, there's never really a deck against which it's useless. Two for one, with the strong possibility to landscrew an opponent, or break up their combo before it can get off the ground.

[Di]

Hymn is some powerful stuff. Unlike Duress, there's never really a deck against which it's useless

Uh, LandStill plays Misdirection. The point of Duress is to help beat LandStill. Hymn helps beat yourself, because this deck is designed to face LandStill.

[ns2973]

double black=bad w/o double blue, i don't want to make the mana base even more unstable by adding another double black, do you? Blue is the number one, black is the splash.

[TorpidNinja]

In all honesty, I've considered Shoreline Ranger. Although, still in testing I vouch for several of the benefits of the Abomination:

-The clock on this fellow is fantastic, espcially the function of bringing him out early via Mana Drain and putting fear inspiring pressure on the opponent
-The regeneration allows him to act as manland when factoring in Disk. End of turn Disk activation leaves him practically untouched, allowing for a beautiful alpha strike next turn

Diablos: If you truly don't like the pressence of the Abomination in your deck, why would you put your name on what you would consider a sub-optimal decklist? Looking as I have at some of your posts over the course of this board it seems unfitting for you to belittle yourself so.

In any event, I should mention my amusement at seeing practically this exact decklist on StarCity so soon after its discussion.

-Cheers

[Lord McCaffrey]

In any event, I should mention my amusement at seeing practically this exact decklist on StarCity so soon after its discussion.

Hmm...perhaps cause Matt Pietarinen's secret super hero identity is Peter_rotten? oops... :D

Just looking at Zillastompy's curve, you could negate a huge amount of their threats with Chalice of the Void. As long as you make a plan for Naturalize, Ascetic and whatever they resolve turn 1/2, its what i see as being hte best card you could sb in that matchup. The only problem is that it and disk don't get along. Should it still be considered?

[TorpidNinja]

Well, the question then is what permanent do you fear more than creatures?

[Lord McCaffrey]

Well, the question then is what permanent do you fear more than creatures?

Actually its more like would i rather rely on just spot removal and not have to coutner half his deck, or use mass removal now and have to counter everything he plays. Looking at it tho, especially with 8 disenchant effects postboard, i don't think it would be to effective. I think the best plan is to go into the old trade binder and dust off your Tundras and Volcanics.

[TeenieBopper]

I think the best plan is to go into the old trade binder and dust off your Tundras and Volcanics.
Best. Advice. Evar.

[Zilla]

Just looking at Zillastompy's curve, you could negate a huge amount of their threats with Chalice of the Void.
Dear Chalice of the Void,

I pwn joo.

Love,
Meltdown

[Jander78]

Dear Troll Asetic,

I own you.

Love,
Mana Drain


Seriously, you can't discount a card because there is a card that destroy it. Otherwise, stop playing creatures because STP exists. Chalice stops more than half of the Zompy deck. It allows Landstill to reserve many counters and just sit back and enjoy the show.

[Di]

Chalice stops more than half of the Zompy deck. It allows Landstill to reserve many counters and just sit back and enjoy the show.


Exactly. Jeez, if Chalice for 1 hits the table, then there are only 2 cards that still need to be countered, the Troll, and the artifact destruction. I'm pretty sure the deck can find a counter for one of them. Hell, the troll might not need countered because an Angel will be going to the dome.

[Lord McCaffrey]

Otherwise, stop playing creatures because STP exists.

Actually, that sounds like pretty good advice to me :D . Thing with CotV is that its a ton crappier if they expect it to come in. If they do, then they bring in Meltdown/Mutations to compliment their Naturalizes, and its odds of sticking around get alot worse. However, in combination with Angel, it could buy enough time to let Angel get around to an untap step without eating 4 bolts. I might even consider boarding out disk if your bringing in Angel+FTK+CotV+Pulse, but thats a stategy for a different, more viable (IMHO) thread.


Chalice stops more than half of the Zompy deck. It allows Landstill to reserve many counters and just sit back and enjoy the show.

yeah...but I still remember the time when I slammed down CotV for 1 on turn 2 vs an aggro deck with 34 1cc cards, only to lose 20 or so turns later, as I was finishing him off, to double Urza's Rage. Chalice, while awesome, isn't a perfectly hard lock. Its much more like a super-Chill.

[Zilla]

If Chalice hits the table for 1, I still have 4 Naturalize, 4 Meltdown, 4 Incinerate, 4 Troll, and 4 ESG which are all still castable, 8 of which remove your Chalice.

So understand this clearly: I'm not saying not to play Chalice because of a single card. That would be silly. I'm saying not to play Chalice because of 20 cards.

Mccaffrey's right - any player prepared for Chalice (which should mean pretty much any player playing Stompzilla) is going to have an easy time getting around it. It's reasonable to suggest that Chalice is a speed bump, and that in conjunction with life gain it could be a reasonable answer to Zilla Stompy, but on its own it's not going to be enough.

[Di]

I still have 4 Naturalize, 4 Meltdown, 4 Incinerate, 4 Troll, and 4 ESG which are all still castable, 8 of which remove your Chalice

If you're using 8 artifact destruction game 2 and 3 against LandStill, then something is going wrong. If this deck is supposed to be a natural foil to LandStill, then why is there so much devoted to stopping it outside of cards like REB and Moon?

[TeenieBopper]

Because the real strenght of Landstill is Disk. If there was no Disk, Landstill wouldn't be nearly as good, if it even existed at all. Add to the fact that Factory is an artifact so you can save burn for the dome, and that Naturalize nails Chalice as well, artifact destruction is a good idea against Landstill.



Edited By TeenieBopper on 1088536050

[Lord McCaffrey]

If there was no Disk, Landstill wouldn't be nearly as good, if it even existed at all.

No....since you could just run O-Stone or Wrath or Deed or anything else than has synergy with no having many nonland permanents.

[Zilla]

If you're using 8 artifact destruction game 2 and 3 against LandStill, then something is going wrong. If this deck is supposed to be a natural foil to LandStill, then why is there so much devoted to stopping it outside of cards like REB and Moon?
What Bopper said. And on top of that, Moon never comes in against Landstill. Meltdown wouldn't either, unless Chalice was in their board. But if it is, then there's no reason not to have 8x artifact killers, particularly when they can also hit Disk and Factories. Obviously the board is going to need to give Landstill attention, since Landstill itself is likely to pack 9 or more SB elements to stop you. It makes sense that your SB will need to be tweaked to answer their own SB choices against you.



Edited By GodzillA on 1088538767

[TeenieBopper]

If there was no Disk, Landstill wouldn't be nearly as good, if it even existed at all.

No....since you could just run O-Stone or Wrath or Deed or anything else than has synergy with no having many nonland permanents.
O-stone is soo much worse than Disk. Wrath is too narrow for the main. And Deed forces you into inferior colors. Disk is what makes Landstill tick.

[Di]

Add to the fact that Factory is an artifact so you can save burn for the dome, and that Naturalize nails Chalice as well, artifact destruction is a good idea against Landstill

I never said it was a bad idea to board in Art. destruction against LandStill, because I know it's a good idea. However, I think going to 8 cards is going overboard. You still need to add in REB, and I know that you will have to be adding in Sulfuric Vortex or something along those lines to deal with stuff like Pulse and Angel.

[Zilla]

Add to the fact that Factory is an artifact so you can save burn for the dome, and that Naturalize nails Chalice as well, artifact destruction is a good idea against Landstill

I never said it was a bad idea to board in Art. destruction against LandStill, because I know it's a good idea. However, I think going to 8 cards is going overboard. You still need to add in REB, and I know that you will have to be adding in Sulfuric Vortex or something along those lines to deal with stuff like Pulse and Angel.
I don't need REB. In fact, more and more lately I've been finding that they just sit in my hand in the Landstill matchup. They're good for countering FoW, Drain, or Standstill, but it's really Landstill's white threats I'm actually afraid of. (Ironic that we're discussing this on the UB thread, btw.) But yeah, a lot of this conversation is somewhat moot at this point.

I built a deck to beat typical Landstill, which it does. Landstill is altering its SB as an answer which it sort of does. Now Stompzilla has to alter its board to answer Landstill's board, which it can. We come to a stopping point here because I haven't had time to do enough testing, and I don't think many others have yet either. I imagine those that have are keeping their tech under wraps until after 7/10. Without more testing, Zilla Stompy's SB changes to answer Landstill's SB changes are probably not worth discussing in too much detail.



Edited By GodzillA on 1088540303

[Omgwee]

Ive never seen this deck top 4-8 any tourny's that ive played at. Basicly the same things that beat landstill beat this. Which is alot of random stuff, fast aggro , and BG dragon. Needs some work.

[Di]

Ive never seen this deck top 4-8 any tourny's that ive played at.

Jee, I've never actually seen it hit tournament play yet.


Basicly the same things that beat landstill beat this. Which is alot of random stuff

LandStill(in all forms/colors) does not lose to randomness.

[TeenieBopper]

LandStill(in all forms/colors) does not lose to randomness.
Seriously. It bothers me when people say this. Landstill just doesn't loose to randomness. The only deck that might have a better match-up against randomness is Dragon. If you're losing to randomness, you're playing the deck wrong.

[Zilla]

Depending on the tournout for the qualifier today (thursday) i might be able to start gathering the "data"
I approve. I'm particularly interested in seeing decklists, including sideboards. They shouldn't be hard to obtain. In fact, if you do so, I will dedicate time to thoroughly testing the lists you provide, and will take the time to present results and matchup analyses in an impartial manner.

Bear in mind that I am not myself a fanatical Landstill supporter. In fact I spend a great deal of my Magic-related time developing and testing decks which smash it. I am, however, a realist, and recognize that Landstill is by far and away one of the strongest, most versatile decks in the format. Give me decklists and I'll give you an informed, unbiased opinion.

[ACME_Myst]

WTF? They necro the thread for THIS?

[Race War]

This very well could push Duck Hunt into DTB status. bmunoz5570, I'm interested to know how well you do against Thresh with this list.

[Peter_Rotten]

It's probably still a hard match... yuck, yuck, yuck.