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Nightmare
06-01-2009, 12:54 PM
http://saltcitymagic.blogspot.com/2009/06/binghamton-lotus-event-scrubtacular.html

As usual, my report of suckage. Still, it was a fun day of cube draft and EDH at the bar.

mujadaddy
06-02-2009, 05:14 PM
this was a pileThat's almost exactly what I said when I looked at that decklist.
People really just want the spotlight, apparently. I like tournament reports from all perspectives because you get to read about...umm, yeah, all perspectives of play.

Soldar
06-02-2009, 05:16 PM
I had a cube together for over a year, and did weekly cube drafts at college, with 6 to 8 people each time, with only one rule (aside from general take care of these cards, 'having a half foiled up cube is a huge investment blah blah') was that Sol Ring was a first pick, almost regardless of what was in the pack.

My opinion is on-color power is a high pick (1-4th in the pack) while off-color power can get thrown by the wayside for cards that can win you the game.

And sometimes you just get the shaft during a day of magic; I know the feeling. The local GPT for Chicago was full of my opponents blind-flipping counterbalance, Dreadnoughts, and an opponent getting incredibly lucky with the Aggro Loam mirror match. I went 1-3, where the 1 was a shameful bye. And then I had to drive the winner of the GPT home.

Nightmare
06-02-2009, 06:30 PM
You know, nothing against your performance, but sifting through the page of threads in the tournament reports area I've noticed an alarming number of people writing up reports for decks that didn't do so hot. People really just want the spotlight, apparently.

Maybe it's just me but I prefer hearing about someone who took their deck through a gauntlet of players (130+) and won rather than one that dropped after rounds two and three. I guess it's just reading material, but still, come on.
I write reports because I like to write them, no matter how I do in the event. The fact that I don't always win is one of the reasons I do it on the blog instead of here. If you don't want to read it, that's ok. I'm not going to make you. Still, any recount of the day gives you insight into what went on aside from the play-by-play. There were a lot of people having a lot of different kinds of fun at this event. Why should only 8 people get to talk about it?

TheInfamousBearAssassin
06-02-2009, 08:10 PM
Pretty good.

Also, no, you're totally wrong.

Jak
06-02-2009, 08:35 PM
You know, nothing against your performance, but sifting through the page of threads in the tournament reports area I've noticed an alarming number of people writing up reports for decks that didn't do so hot. People really just want the spotlight, apparently.

Maybe it's just me but I prefer hearing about someone who took their deck through a gauntlet of players (130+) and won rather than one that dropped after rounds two and three. I guess it's just reading material, but still, come on.

Pretty lame, man. Let people write and let people read what they want.

Michael Keller
06-02-2009, 09:39 PM
Sorry, Adam. I'll buy you a couple round when I get home.

TrialByFire
06-02-2009, 10:01 PM
Sol Ring, Black Lotus, and Sensei's Top are always automatic first picks in the Cube for me. If I had to choose one, it would be Sol Ring. Turn 1 Sol Ring is the most unbelievable tempo boost its hard for the opponent to come back from that

TheInfamousBearAssassin
06-02-2009, 11:04 PM
Jesus, no.

I would never, ever, ever first pick a Sol Ring if you held a gun to my head.

You pick all the mana acceleration to power up into those power plays. Maybe that actually works against other idiots using the same strategy. I'm not going to pass you a single goddamn bomb. I'm going to take every bomb and removal spell that comes my way, and if I want more mana I'll run more lands. And you're going to accelerate into your crap that I'm going to answer and then you're going to run out of steam, because you drafted fucking mana acceleration over real cards in a format with an average ten turn clock.

You people need to play real limited some time, you're picking up the worst strategies imaginable.

munkie
06-02-2009, 11:21 PM
I play real limited. And I like to think that I am pretty good at it. Whatever pick you take is going to be determined by what is in the rest of the pack. There are so many questions to ask before you make a pick, especially in a format with insane cards like a cube. Nightmare and I have a fully powered cube and the decks with the power and mana-fixing generally run more consistantly than the decks with just bombs.

But for the most part, there really isn't any way to draft the cube correctly. It really is just supposed to be a fun format, and if anyone wants to argue cube drafting somantics and strategy, I'll tell you to go fuck yourself because there really isn't any.

You are going to take the cards that you want to play with. That is the whole point. If you want to try and draft a good deck, hopefully in the cube, you will have a mix of power and bombs. But it really all just comes down to personal preference. Saying Sol Ring is better than Wrath of God isn't really relevant when both cards should make any deck and would be/are/were first picks.

If you want to talk relevant limited strategy, fine. But who the fuck cares about cube drafting or irrelevant formats in general? No sense in having a pissing contest over something that doesn't even matter.

EDIT: If anyone takes a single card over Black Lotus in a cube draft, you should get punched in the dick. Period.

TeenieBopper
06-02-2009, 11:23 PM
But who the fuck cares about cube drafting or irrelevant formats in general? No sense in having a pissing contest over something that doesn't even matter.


Quoted for irony because it was posted on a Legacy website.

munkie
06-02-2009, 11:34 PM
Right. But it was ME posting. About a relevant format.

frogboy
06-03-2009, 07:00 AM
I take Sol Ring over Lotus in cube. I'd take Ancestral over Lotus, too, but I've never had the Ring/Ancestral pick. I think I'd take Ancestral but it's really close.


because you drafted fucking mana acceleration over real cards

What are you taking over Sol Ring? There are DI creatures/removal/draw/counters, so unless it's something like Upheaval, Workshop, Survival, or an actual archtype, whatever you took over it was replacable, and Sol Ring is better than all of those other cards.

edit: power is not passable. what the hell is wrong with you people?

4eak
06-03-2009, 08:42 AM
Eh, we pass on mana acceleration in cubing pretty often, but our cube has a limited number of win conditions. Making sure you are the player with the win conditions and answers to your opponent's wincons has been more important than the acceleration in our cube.

Don't get me wrong, Sol Ring and Lotus can do some amazing plays. But, we've found it is more difficult to consistently setup broken interactions with these cards than abuse more standalone bombs and control cards.

I think the value of mana acceleration heavily depends upon the other cards you run in a cube. As much as it pains me to say it, Black Lotus tempo is not always worth the loss in card advantage or a loss in the quality/quantity of your win conditions and control cards.





peace,
4eak

TheInfamousBearAssassin
06-03-2009, 08:49 AM
You're all fucking terrible and make me weep for the future.

Random pack of fourteen;

Harmonize
Suchi
Icy Manipulator
Lightning Bolt
Soltari Priest
Spectral Procession
Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
Blightning
Lorescale Coatl
Mana Drain
Sigiled Paladin
Chrome Mox
Bloodstained Mire
Necropotence

And let's throw in Sol Ring.

Now let's discuss what this deck has. Our answer cards are Mana Drain, Lightning Bolt, Icy Manipulator. Our threats are Ink-Eyes, Lorescale, Sigiled Paladin, Soltari Priest, Spectral Procession and Suchi. Our utility spells are Harmonize, Blightning, and Necropotence. Our mana fixing is Bloodstained Mire. Our mana acceleration is Sol Ring and Chrome Mox is both acceleration and fixing.

In terms of power, I would rank the answers from Icy Manipulator to Lightning Bolt to Mana Drain, with Mana Drain being last; counters generally require you to pick up several before becoming a reliable strategy. Lightning Bolt is flexible and hits players, but is in the worst Cube color and doesn't take out bombs. Icy Manipulator can hold down anything it can target and doesn't commit us to a color.

In terms of power, I would rank the threats down from Ink-Eyes, to Suchi, to Lorescale, to Soltari Priest, to Spectral Procession, to Sigiled Paladin. Ink-Eyes is the most obvious bomb that will completely fuck up the opponent's day when she gets into play. Suchi is a beefy body that has the advantage of going into any color. Lorescale commits to two colors but gets really freaking big. Soltari Priest offers evasion, as does Spectral Procession. Sigiled Paladin is still an efficient weenie, although the worst of these cards.

In terms of power, the utility ranks from Harmonize to Necropotence to Blightning. Discard is highly unreliable in draft. Necropotence is obviously powerful but difficult to cast. Harmonize is a lot easier to splash, especially when green offers good mana fixing.

In terms of power, I would rank the mana cards, from most to least, as Bloodstained Mire, Sol Ring, and Chrome Mox. I don't like lands that lose CA in a slow format, and will often, in two to three color decks, provide exactly the color of mana I don't need. Sol Ring accelerates but Bloodstained Mire offers tangible mana fixing now, allowing me to grab up more bombs, especially if I pick up some dual lands later.

Overall, not knowing what else I'm going to pick up, this is how I would rate the cards in this pack;

Icy Manipulator
Ink Eyes
Harmonize
Suchi
Lorescale Coatl
Lightning Bolt
Soltari Priest
Spectral Procession
Mana Drain
Sigiled Paladin
Bloodstained Mire
Necropotence
Sol Ring
Blightning
Chrome Mox

Bloodstained Mire, Necropotence, Mana Drain, Spectral Procession and even Blightning might be subject to an elevated order later on, depending on what I've picked up thus far. Sol Ring pretty much would not be. Specific issues of color aside, the ranking of importance is more or less;

Bomby answers > bomby threats > card advantage > regular answers > regular threats > mana fixing > mana acceleration.

Sol Ring will pretty much never be a first pick. The rest of the deck would have to be absolute dreck, or I'd have to be running some sort of very specialized deck on the second or third pack; even then I'd have to see nothing else for me first.

Mana fixing, mind you, will rise drastically in importance as I learn what colors I'm in. I'm by no means diminishing the advantage of picking up color fixers. To that end I'd even look at Black Lotus over Sol Ring.

However, while ideally a mana base full of Moxen and the like would be nice, it's more important to seize the reality of having bombs and answers to play now than to rely on the hope of having bombs to go with the mana acceleration I just picked later.

SpatulaOfTheAges
06-03-2009, 08:51 AM
EDIT: If anyone takes a single card over Black Lotus in a cube draft, you should get punched in the dick. Period.

There I will disagree.

There are a relatively small number of cards that make Lotus a worthwhile pick. Kodoma of the North Tree, for example.

But your average creature will just give them a 2 for 1, because there's so much removal available in the format.



I do like Sol Ring, however, as permanent mana sources are infinitely more important when you have availability to so many bombs.

4eak
06-03-2009, 09:21 AM
Assuming this is my first pack, I'd probably rank them like this:

Icy Manipulator--Very versatile and fits any deck. Color screwing your opponent or creating favorable combat positions rocks.
Ink Eyes--second to Icy only because of double color cost, while Icy is much easier to play
Su-chi--I value colorless, efficient bodies a little more because they maintain value regardless of what I see in future packs
Lightning Bolt--we work hard to balance the colors in our cube, and so our red is a bit better than most cubes
Lorescale Coatl
Soltari Priest--evasion + protection from a relevant removal color
Harmonize--would be higher, but I prefer to take the bomby wincons and versatile control cards.
Mana Drain
Bloodstained Mire--seems pretty good in this pack too
Sol Ring
Blightning
Spectral Procession--colorless castability and raw permanent advantage makes it better than Sigil
Sigiled Paladin
Necropotence (BBB sucks, and it can be such a conditional card)
Chrome Mox--yuck. This card only works when we get Confidant + Necro in the same deck.





peace,
4eak

SpatulaOfTheAges
06-03-2009, 01:10 PM
Actually, Ink-Eyes is probably the right call in that pack, since that leaves it with only Blightning as the playable black card, and that's a splash.

Theoretically, you could get the nuts deck with Ritual/Lotus/Hymn/Hyppy/Necro, etc, but the odds are so low that you've effectively cut black out of that pack by taking away Ink-Eyes.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
06-03-2009, 01:38 PM
Dammit. That's actually a good call. You can even expect Bloodstained Mire to wheel to stabilize a manabase.

TrialByFire
06-03-2009, 01:48 PM
I definitely agree with you Jack about not taking mana sources early, but I believe Sol Ring has its merits. It puts you two turns ahead of you opponents for playing your bombs. And you say u wouldn't want to waste a first pick on it, but the thing about cube is there are 14 more good cards in the remaining packs. There is any shit picks in cube. Maybe off color cards but no bad ones.

After thinking about it some more, I forgot that Library of Alexandria is automatic first pick no questions asked, followed closely by Sol Ring, Ancestral, Top, Jitte, and maybe Time Walk and Lotus

TheInfamousBearAssassin
06-03-2009, 01:55 PM
I'm sorry, I don't buy it. There's a rank to awesomness, as we already went over. If you pick Sol Ring over Ink-Eyes, Icy Manipulator or even Harmonize you're wrong and your deck will be weaker than it would have been.

munkie
06-03-2009, 03:04 PM
Sol Ring might be better than Lotus overall. But it's fucking Black Lotus. And that is the point of the cube. So I'm not going to argue anymore about irrelevant formats since that's what most people on here like to argue about... irrelevant bullshit. So if anyone wants to argue REAL limited ALA-CON-ARB or something, then PM me.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
06-03-2009, 03:12 PM
I take all formats seriously, because playing to lose isn't fun. I only have fun when I'm trying to win.

Heading that off at the pass.

The problem here is that people seem to be approaching Cube like they're building Vintage decks. You're not. Mana Drain is worse than Rout. Library of Alexandria is worse than Volrath's Stronghold. Ancestral Recall is worse than Skullclamp. Tinker is worse than Masked Admirers, and Sol Ring is worse than any given Dual. Your deck contains some truly busted cards from Magic's history, but you don't have the luxury of playing up to four copies and tailoring your mana curve for the turn three kill. Understand that you're still in a Limited environment and the rules of Limited apply.

munkie
06-03-2009, 03:24 PM
All I need to say is that I built a 750 card cube with only a handful of proxies. We obviously took it seriously. I have drafted it countless times. There is no real strategy when you have a true cube. You can only go with what you open. See: 2007 Magic Invitational Cube Draft List. Card for card, that is what I built with Nightmare a year and a half ago.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
06-03-2009, 03:42 PM
Did you replace the Deed yet?

Also;

While a degree of flexibility is necessary in any limited format, and Cube especially, there's still reasonable priorities. The fact that Sol Ring is the best mana accelerant doesn't change the fact that mana accelerants are just a lot less powerful in Limited than in Constructed. I don't think I've ever seen a Cube pack that didn't have at least five better first picks than Sol Ring.

Let me put it this way;

In most Constructed matchups and games, your opening hand of seven cards contains well over 50% of the cards you'll see naturally in that game. Most decks that tend to see more specifically have card advantage or selection engines in place; that is, in fact, the greatest difficulty in building non-blue control.

In most Limited games, your opening hand contains well under 50% of the cards you'll see in a matchup. The topdeck value of a card jumps drastically. Mana accelerants, discard and counterspells are all a lot worse for this reason. For any given card, you're less likely to see it in the opening hand and more likely to see it off the top.

munkie
06-03-2009, 04:24 PM
mana accelerants are just a lot less powerful in Limited than in Constructed

...with close to 1,000 sanctioned limited matches under my belt and thousands more non-sanctioned. I respectfully disagree. I hate to say it, Jack, but if we are going to argue Limited strategy, you will be outclassed. I don't really argue Legacy since I know my place.

Again, I said I am no longer arguing about the irrelevant cube as we have already found that there is a bevy of strategies that produce winning decks.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
06-03-2009, 04:37 PM
Let me tell you about a guy who used to play at the Frog named Keith Fiodori.


Moral of the story:

I'd rather hear about how to quit smoking from the guy that did it once than the guy who's done it hundreds of times. Repetition doesn't mean anything except that you have a way of doing things you're familiar with. Doesn't mean it's the best way.

Also, most Moxen and Sol Ring, most mana accelerants in Limited are generally mana fixers. I would draft Sakura-Tribe Elder above Sol Ring, for instance. For that matter, I'd take Terramorphic Expanse over Sol Ring. (Oshit I went there)

I would not, however, draft an off-color karoo or signet highly in Ravnica block, for instance, although on color these cards might be very powerful indeed.

Even then, however, when it comes to on-color removal or bombs versus on color mana acceleration, there's generally not a question. A card like Coalition Relic or Kodama's Reach might get picked over a poor removal spell like, say, Pull Under or Feebleness, but that's not the usual pecking order.

SpatulaOfTheAges
06-03-2009, 05:48 PM
I'm sorry, I don't buy it. There's a rank to awesomness, as we already went over. If you pick Sol Ring over Ink-Eyes, Icy Manipulator or even Harmonize you're wrong and your deck will be weaker than it would have been.

I disagree about Harmonize. It's always better to go with low color commitment early if possible, unless it's a color-cutting situation.

I would also value Icy less than I would in other formats, because in core-limited, for example, the artifact removal all sucks, so you can pretty much guarantee that Icy will stick. Not so in Cube.

So after Ink-Eyes, in that pack, I'd probably go with Sol Ring. Or one of the real Moxen, if available.

But again, Black Lotus is completely different, as is Time Walk for that matter.

Time Walk in Cube is kind of like a shitty Savage Beating.

Wait a minute. Savage Beating IS in Cube, right?

TheInfamousBearAssassin
06-03-2009, 05:55 PM
You would pick a random Moxen over Lightning Bolt, or Harmonize, or Icy Manipulator.

You're fucking terrible, and I hope you get mauled by bears.

SpatulaOfTheAges
06-03-2009, 06:24 PM
Yes, I would, because there are only 5 moxen, whereas there are plenty of removal spells better than Bolt or Icy, and draw spells better than Harmonize.

Those are hardly the bar in that format, Jack.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
06-03-2009, 06:30 PM
Yes, I would, because there are only 5 moxen, whereas there are plenty of removal spells better than Bolt or Icy, and draw spells better than Harmonize.

Those are hardly the bar in that format, Jack.

And had I wheels, I'd be a fucking wagon. But what's your point?

Blightning's actually one of the best limited discard spells by a mile, but it's still dreck. Being the best at dreck or third tier effects isn't something to brag about.

You're not sure you're going to get those better removal spells or card draw or threats. If you want a deck packed with powerful spells, you'd better start picking up the best you can get now and not turn up your nose until someone passes Skullclamp and Meloku your fucking way.

I hope the bears spit on you and remind you of the meaninglessness of your existence as they're mauling you.

SpatulaOfTheAges
06-03-2009, 06:45 PM
I'm glad that your arguments aren't retarded.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
06-03-2009, 06:48 PM
I'm glad that the last thoughts to cross your mind will be the supreme futility of all human suffering and desire as the bear tears your head off with a single swipe of it's mighty paw.

SpatulaOfTheAges
06-03-2009, 06:52 PM
Yeah, me too.

mujadaddy
06-03-2009, 06:58 PM
I think we need a motivational poster of Spatch getting eaten by bears that says, "And then... he was enlightened."

Jujuhawk
06-03-2009, 07:05 PM
I'm sorry, I don't buy it. There's a rank to awesomness, as we already went over. If you pick Sol Ring over Ink-Eyes, Icy Manipulator or even Harmonize you're wrong and your deck will be weaker than it would have been.

Pretty sure Sol Ring is the best non-power in any cube I've seen, and it's an auto windmill in my friends' cubes. If you're giving me a second pick sol ring I'm totally fine with that. Enjoy your terrible black card, I'm just gonna jump 2 turns ahead of you.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
06-03-2009, 07:19 PM
Pretty sure Sol Ring is the best non-power in any cube I've seen, and it's an auto windmill in my friends' cubes. If you're giving me a second pick sol ring I'm totally fine with that. Enjoy your terrible black card, I'm just gonna jump 2 turns ahead of you.

You just called Ink-Eyes a terrible limited card.

I'm pretty sure I'm not compelled to address your non-argument based simply on the fact that you're obviously borderline.

I will address it to point out that if you don't have an actual argument or any knowledge of how limited works, you probably shouldn't contribute to tangent discussions.

Maverick676
06-03-2009, 07:26 PM
I think what he is trying to say is that while something like Ink-Eyes is a bomb there are alot of bombs in cube. However there is no other card like sol ring, being able to play your bombs 2 turns before your opponents is a huge advantage. While I would generally agree that mana accel is the last thing you should pick in limited, I think sol ring is an exception to this rule as it puts you ahead two turns and can come down turn 1.

Jujuhawk
06-03-2009, 07:28 PM
You just called Ink-Eyes a terrible limited card.

I'm pretty sure I'm not compelled to address your non-argument based simply on the fact that you're obviously borderline.

I will address it to point out that if you don't have an actual argument or any knowledge of how limited works, you probably shouldn't contribute to tangent discussions.

I'm pretty sure my limited rating is probably 100 points higher than yours, and sol ring is the best card in a non-power cube, and the friends that I play with agree, but idk, only 2 of the 3 I 2v2'd last time have top 8'd a limited GP so they probably don't know what they're talking about either.

also, ink eye's is fine, but you probably will be so far behind my sol ring start that the game won't be close.

jthanatos
06-03-2009, 07:50 PM
I'm pretty sure my limited rating is probably 100 points higher than yours, and sol ring is the best card in a non-power cube, and the friends that I play with agree, but idk, only 2 of the 3 I 2v2'd last time have top 8'd a limited GP so they probably don't know what they're talking about either.

also, ink eye's is fine, but you probably will be so far behind my sol ring start that the game won't be close.

I would just like to point out a small issue I have with a lot of your posts. You constantly reference your friends, who are apparently quite good at magic. I, too, have a friend that plays in the NFL...however, I am not a quality first round draft pick.

Edit: In draft, always, bombs are better than accelerants. Sol Ring may be a really good tempo boost, but almost all drafts, even cube, make mid-late game, and I want to be ripping bombs and card draw off the top...not mana.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
06-03-2009, 07:54 PM
I'm pretty sure my limited rating is probably 100 points higher than yours, and sol ring is the best card in a non-power cube, and the friends that I play with agree, but idk, only 2 of the 3 I 2v2'd last time have top 8'd a limited GP so they probably don't know what they're talking about either.

also, ink eye's is fine, but you probably will be so far behind my sol ring start that the game won't be close.

What's funny is that you're probably under the impression that this was somehow a zinger or something.

I'm trying to avoid just insulting you, but try to avoid making this so difficult.

It's bad enough that you're putting Sol Ring over Ink Eyes, which it definitely doesn't deserve, but unless your Cube list is missing the best sweepers (Damnation, Wrath of God, Deed, Disk, Vengeance) or the best equipment (Jitte, Skullclamp, SoFI, SoLS) this isn't even anywhere in the realm of possibility for someone that's not inebriated or brain damaged.

Cube isn't just a lot of bomb threats. There's a lot of answers in Cube. Cube games generally don't end quickly, because sweepers and removal are more prolific even than in real limited, and the mana curves are usually worse.

Even if you see Sol Ring in your opening hand instead of topdecking it when it's useless- and this is a big assumption- most of the time you're plowing ahead into better plays because the opponent picked more bombs than you.

Sol Ring is absolutely fantastic when you don't have to pass up powerful cards to get to it. It is by no means worth passing up those powerful cards.

People say that Sol Ring is the best card in Cube because it's a fucking meme. That's it. Evan Erwin and other people that made the format popular spread it around, but I'm going to be honest with you; Evan Erwin is not your fucking friend if you're looking for top level strategic advice.

People also keep thinking they're building fucking Vintage decks when they see power. You're not. This is still limited.

I'll repeat it;

Most cards you see in limited you rip off the top. This is a huge part of what makes the dynamic different than Constructed. Cards that are terrible off the top are usually bad unless you can build the deck to support them. Sol Ring, if backed up with other mana acceleration and a bunch of fatties might make a decent deck.... but it would pretty much always be worse than the mana acceleration provided by killing your opponent's shit.

zulander
06-03-2009, 07:54 PM
http://i392.photobucket.com/albums/pp4/Mpix1/failed_2.jpg

Jujuhawk
06-03-2009, 08:54 PM
What's funny is that you're probably under the impression that this was somehow a zinger or something.

I'm trying to avoid just insulting you, but try to avoid making this so difficult.

It's bad enough that you're putting Sol Ring over Ink Eyes, which it definitely doesn't deserve, but unless your Cube list is missing the best sweepers (Damnation, Wrath of God, Deed, Disk, Vengeance) or the best equipment (Jitte, Skullclamp, SoFI, SoLS) this isn't even anywhere in the realm of possibility for someone that's not inebriated or brain damaged.

Cube isn't just a lot of bomb threats. There's a lot of answers in Cube. Cube games generally don't end quickly, because sweepers and removal are more prolific even than in real limited, and the mana curves are usually worse.

Even if you see Sol Ring in your opening hand instead of topdecking it when it's useless- and this is a big assumption- most of the time you're plowing ahead into better plays because the opponent picked more bombs than you.

Sol Ring is absolutely fantastic when you don't have to pass up powerful cards to get to it. It is by no means worth passing up those powerful cards.

People say that Sol Ring is the best card in Cube because it's a fucking meme. That's it. Evan Erwin and other people that made the format popular spread it around, but I'm going to be honest with you; Evan Erwin is not your fucking friend if you're looking for top level strategic advice.

People also keep thinking they're building fucking Vintage decks when they see power. You're not. This is still limited.

I'll repeat it;

Most cards you see in limited you rip off the top. This is a huge part of what makes the dynamic different than Constructed. Cards that are terrible off the top are usually bad unless you can build the deck to support them. Sol Ring, if backed up with other mana acceleration and a bunch of fatties might make a decent deck.... but it would pretty much always be worse than the mana acceleration provided by killing your opponent's shit.


And it is apparent to me that you don't value tempo in limited, and would rather pack your deck full of bombs. I've seen some insane sealed decks with Archangel, broodmate, cruel ultimatum, and ajani vengeant with good fixing. This is sick, but you just lose to an aggressive deck. Sol Ring is going to be good in every deck you play. You're not committing at all to any sort of archetype (but if you get the artifacts/tezzeret one it's gold obv), and it's insane no matter what you play against.

The only time sol ring is ever bad is like turn 10. Usually turn 5 or 6 it's fine because I'm basically playing 2 lands for 1 card, like a bounceland (but with no tempo loss!). Sol Ring is pure card advantage in itself, and if you have it in your opener it's so hard to lose. Obviously you're going to lose if your deck is sol ring and then 23 other terrible cards, but you're going to see other bombs, and sol ring lets you play them faster than your opponents.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
06-03-2009, 09:26 PM
Uh. You still lose one mana playing the Sol Ring. Past anything but the first few turns I'd much rather have a karoo land if it does anything at all to fix my colors.

And a much more reliable way of maintaining tempo in limited, a lot like Constructed actually, is to run removal. I pick up removal so that I don't have to run crappy mana accelerants to stay ahead; and the removal, unlike Sol Ring, is good off the top.

I don't first pick anything that's going to suck late game. I just don't. Most games go to late game. You think you're going to avoid this by getting that first turn Sol Ring, but you probably won't draw it and even if you do, your threats probably won't be able to finish me off. If you've been first picking jewelry, you're going to lose out when I start dropping better threats and better answers.

Categorically, sweepers and power equipment, as well as cards like Serrated Arrows and Cursed Scroll and Icy Manipulator, are always better than Sol Ring or Moxen in every single deck that is in that color. And some of those that aren't.

That wasn't even a particularly strong pack I opened, but if you're going to first pick Sol Ring there you're crazy.

Tell me honestly now;

Do you first pick Llanowar Elves, or Blastoderm?

Is your love of mana acceleration based around anything more than the desire for toys you can't play with in Legacy?

TheInfamousBearAssassin
06-03-2009, 09:57 PM
Better sample pack:

Nekrataal
Skullclamp
Blood Crypt
Selesnya Signet
Juggernaut
Vedalken Shackles
Kodama of the North Tree
Putrefy
Creakwood Liege
Knight of the White Orchid
Wall of Roots
Control Magic
Exalted Angel
Skyshroud Elite

Throw Sol Ring in there and justify to me how you would first pick it.

Jujuhawk
06-03-2009, 10:19 PM
If you're honestly going to compare sol ring and llanowar elves then there's no further reason for me to debate this, and if you're first picking serrated arrows over it, I'm fine with that.

In that pack: Sol Ring and clamp are close, but we generally 2v2 with packs of 9, so you're not going to get absurd packs like that. I'd let neighbors fight over blue with 2 control magics in the pack, and it really depends on what's in the cube :\.

SpatulaOfTheAges
06-03-2009, 10:21 PM
Skullclamp
Exalted Angel
Control Magic
Nekrataal
Sol Ring

Jujuhawk
06-03-2009, 10:27 PM
p1p1 sol ring or clamp, but just throwing 5 ridiculous cards out there gets me nowhere really. There are so many components of a first pick that are important. Neighbor draft preference, what's IN the cube, what the best colors are, etc. If both my neighbors like X aggro decks then I'll take the sol ring every time and try not to get into a clamp deck.

EDIT: How are you losing a mana playing the sol ring? You're gaining 1 first turn and 2 the second turn when you get to untap with everything.

EDIT2: Also, I love how you're just throwing shit out there saying my deck is going to be a pile because I picked a double land essentially over a spell. I'm going to see other bombs, and the sol ring is not coming back. All the cube is composed of is bombs, and if mine are online before yours I'm winning the game probably.

munkie
06-03-2009, 10:39 PM
Doesn't mean it's the best way.


I have won a Limited Grand Prix Trial and Top 8'ed a Limited PTQ. The fuck I don't know the right way to evaluate limited play. I don't normally brag of my accomplishments, but considering the relative few number of times I had to try to do so, I think I have earned my right to say I know what the fuck I'm doing. And what real Limited experience do you have, Jack Elgin? What real Limited success do you have to back up your opinion other than just saying, "I'm right and you're wrong?"


(Oshit I went there)

/end even looking at this thread again.

Jujuhawk
06-03-2009, 10:51 PM
Wow, I didn't read this post until now, but wow.


Let me tell you about a guy who used to play at the Frog named Keith Fiodori.


Moral of the story:

I'd rather hear about how to quit smoking from the guy that did it once than the guy who's done it hundreds of times. Repetition doesn't mean anything except that you have a way of doing things you're familiar with. Doesn't mean it's the best way.

Also, most Moxen and Sol Ring, most mana accelerants in Limited are generally mana fixers. I would draft Sakura-Tribe Elder above Sol Ring, for instance. For that matter, I'd take Terramorphic Expanse over Sol Ring. (Oshit I went there)

I would not, however, draft an off-color karoo or signet highly in Ravnica block, for instance, although on color these cards might be very powerful indeed.

Even then, however, when it comes to on-color removal or bombs versus on color mana acceleration, there's generally not a question. A card like Coalition Relic or Kodama's Reach might get picked over a poor removal spell like, say, Pull Under or Feebleness, but that's not the usual pecking order.


1. Card advantage is one of the most important things. You saying that you didn't value off-color bouncelands highly is just a red flag that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Those lands are 2 for 1's. That's it. If I can get to high mana before you I have a better chance, and that's what karoos did. Also, like basically all limited specialists disagree with you on that if that means anything.

2. If you're taking terramorphic expanse over sol ring then you are actually completely braindead. These two cards aren't even close in power level.

3. Obviously you generally take bombs over mana accelaration, but cube is a completely different format. In cube, at least half of the pack is going to be bomby for one person or another. If I'm taking sol ring I'm basically just making it so I can play my bombs out before my opponents can. Acceleration generally isn't that important, but if a card can give me 4 mana on turn 2 and stay in play I'm sure as hell going to take it.

SpatulaOfTheAges
06-03-2009, 10:54 PM
I don't know whether you'd call them "bombs" or not, but cards like Nekrataal and Control Magic are just better tempo advantage, as well as card advantage, than Sol Ring is, 9 times out of 10.

So if I see those kinds of cards, I'm taking them.

But vs. straight up fat or mana intensive draw spells, I'll take Sol Ring.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
06-03-2009, 10:57 PM
I have won a Limited Grand Prix Trial and Top 8'ed a Limited PTQ. The fuck I don't know the right way to evaluate limited play. I don't normally brag of my accomplishments, but considering the relative few number of times I had to try to do so, I think I have earned my right to say I know what the fuck I'm doing. And what real Limited experience do you have, Jack Elgin? What real Limited success do you have to back up your opinion other than just saying, "I'm right and you're wrong?"

Holyshitholyshitholyshitthat'ssohardcore.

Does Top 8'ing at a PTQ qualify as success? I confess that my tiebreakers sucked at the only limited PTQ I ever played at, so I did not in fact Top 8. They give you a pin for that, right?

As long as we're being jerkasses, I'm going to point out that if you want to use an appeal to authority, maybe you should have real accomplishments.

@Juju:

I'm honestly going to compare Sol Ring and Llanowar Elves. Sol Ring obviously produces more mana, but it's not colored mana. It can't carry a Jitte and it doesn't draw two cards off of Skullclamp. It doesn't make Edict shittier and it doesn't chump block.

I suppose Sol Ring is better if you're not in green.

No, seriously, Sol Ring over Skullclamp? That's terrible. That's absolutely, unquestionably the wrong call. All I can imagine is that you're taking the advice of the so called experts on Cubing way more seriously than your own game experiences. It is really fucking hard to lose a game with active Skullclamp. The same cannot be said of Sol Ring. If the two go head to head it's really difficult to imagine the Sol Ring player winning: I can chumpblock to eternity, and I'm going to be drawing all my answers and better bombs while you fizzle out into drawing duds.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
06-03-2009, 11:08 PM
1. Card advantage is one of the most important things. You saying that you didn't value off-color bouncelands highly is just a red flag that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Those lands are 2 for 1's. That's it. If I can get to high mana before you I have a better chance, and that's what karoos did.

I see bad players do this a lot, so I'm going to enlighten you;

The actual theory of card advantage, as originally stated, is that the player who draws the most cards tends to win- as long as those cards do something useful.

Card advantage only matters if it does something useful. A card that produces two colorless mana is not extremely useful in most cases, which is why Ancient Tomb isn't regarded as a first pick. Sol Ring is obviously a bit better than Ancient Tomb (mostly) but the main difference is that Sol Ring is banned in Legacy and thus has a sparkly, shiny allure to it.

Ancient Tomb is not card advantage, anyway. Karoo lands and Sol Ring are not card advantage. They are potentially mana advantage, but they don't actually produce card advantage. All they can approximate to is producing the card advantage scenario where your original and extra cards are both land. And, hey, psssst, Land Tax sucks in Limited too.

It's probably better than Sol Ring though, since it can fix your colors.


Also, like basically all limited specialists disagree with you on that if that means anything.

On what, off color karoo lands in Ravnica block limited? Do go on. I suppose it's possible, since Ravnica block did have a higher curve to it. I doubt you're going to find anyone that recommends first picking off color karoos, though. "Highly" is a subjective term.


2. If you're taking terramorphic expanse over sol ring then you are actually completely braindead. These two cards aren't even close in power level.

I agree. Terramorphic Expanse lets me pick up more good cards and use them reliably, and is thus far more powerful than Sol Ring.


3. Obviously you generally take bombs over mana accelaration, but cube is a completely different format. In cube, at least half of the pack is going to be bomby for one person or another. If I'm taking sol ring I'm basically just making it so I can play my bombs out before my opponents can. Acceleration generally isn't that important, but if a card can give me 4 mana on turn 2 and stay in play I'm sure as hell going to take it.

Even if your Cube list is nothing but bombs- and most lists run a lot of 1-for-1s and small utility and weenie creatures- some of those bombs will be better quality than others. When those cards go head to head, the player with the most bomby threats and answers will win. The player who first picks powerful card advantage threats and answers will be that player. The player who picked Sol Ring over Meloku or Damnation or Cursed Scroll or Loxodon Warhammer or any other card that's much much better than Sol Ring won't realize that Sol Ring is what cost them that match, but that's exactly what it will be.

Honestly, though?

Enough. You're too incompetent to argue with any further. You're clearly incapable of forming any kind of argument of your own, instead relying on ridiculously vague and tenuous appeals to unreal authority and arguments amounting to "Wow, just wow".

Do you have a single thought ricocheting through those last, brave few synapses that you're actually capable of expressing? The kid gloves are about to come off. Say something of value or get the fuck out.

Jujuhawk
06-03-2009, 11:10 PM
As long as we're being jerkasses, I'm going to point out that if you want to use an appeal to authority, maybe you should have real accomplishments.

I think "real" can just be better than yours. :\


@Juju:

I'm honestly going to compare Sol Ring and Llanowar Elves. Sol Ring obviously produces more mana, but it's not colored mana. It can't carry a Jitte and it doesn't draw two cards off of Skullclamp. It doesn't make Edict shittier and it doesn't chump block.

Llanowar elves can't power out turn 2 elspeth/garruk, or turn 2 baloth, or turn 2 WHATEVER, and continue it with a turn 3 5 drop, etc.


I suppose Sol Ring is better if you're not in green.

No, it's always better.


No, seriously, Sol Ring over Skullclamp? That's terrible. That's absolutely, unquestionably the wrong call. All I can imagine is that you're taking the advice of the so called experts on Cubing way more seriously than your own game experiences. It is really fucking hard to lose a game with active Skullclamp. The same cannot be said of Sol Ring. If the two go head to head it's really difficult to imagine the Sol Ring player winning: I can chumpblock to eternity, and I'm going to be drawing all my answers and better bombs while you fizzle out into drawing duds.

Skullclamp is also slow, and if you're playing it in a deck with bombs and answers then you're probably a control deck where clamp is not as good, and if you're an aggro deck then you only have one gameplan. My things are going to be bigger then yours and my game is going to be 2 turns ahead of yours giving you less time to play stuff an hookup immediately.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
06-03-2009, 11:22 PM
Llanowar Elves is far more likely to power out anything that has double green in it's casting cost over Sol Ring.

Skullclamp is slow? Kid, I don't know what your Cube list looks like. Are there removal spells? Life gain? Cards that cost more than three mana? Cards with heavy color requirements? If the answer to any of the above is "yes", I have no idea why you think Cube games go by so quickly. They don't. It's still a limited format. And yes, I've seen the turn 1 Sol Ring and been thoroughly impressed. Fuck, I've played the turn 1 Sol Ring because I briefly listened to the advice of the idiots that consider themselves Cube Drafting authorities and realized, too late, that it was so much worse than the good cards I passed up for it.

In every Limited deck Skullclamp is better than Sol Ring. Every single one. It neuters every removal spell the opponent plays.

And if you're actually drafting up nothing but expensive-ass bombs in the hopes of racing with Sol Ring, you're even worse than I thought. You need early game plays regardless. It's just that generally you want them to do something on their own and not suck completely if they're not in your opening grip.

Jujuhawk
06-03-2009, 11:29 PM
Llanowar Elves is far more likely to power out anything that has double green in it's casting cost over Sol Ring.

If you're playing llanowar elves you're most likely heavy green anyway, so this is irrelevant. And if you're not heavy green, then your deck is terrible and you have no chance and sol ring is infinitely better, not close.


Skullclamp is slow? Kid, I don't know what your Cube list looks like. Are there removal spells? Life gain? Cards that cost more than three mana? Cards with heavy color requirements? If the answer to any of the above is "yes", I have no idea why you think Cube games go by so quickly. They don't. It's still a limited format. And yes, I've seen the turn 1 Sol Ring and been thoroughly impressed. Fuck, I've played the turn 1 Sol Ring because I briefly listened to the advice of the idiots that consider themselves Cube Drafting authorities and realized, too late, that it was so much worse than the good cards I passed up for it.

Obviously there is removal and expensive spells. THERE ARE ALSO CARDS LIKE SAVANNAH LIONS THAT ATTACK THE OPPONENT ON TURN 2. Maybe your cube is just all control decks with aggro having no chance?


And if you're actually drafting up nothing but expensive-ass bombs in the hopes of racing with Sol Ring, you're even worse than I thought. You need early game plays regardless. It's just that generally you want them to do something on their own and not suck completely if they're not in your opening grip.

That's obviously not the strategy, that's terrible. However, hands with sol ring are going to be a lot faster than hands without sol ring. If I'm drafting the expensive ass bomb deck I also have early game removal and accel like KReach to go with it, and sol ring basically just makes it so my bombs come online 2 turns faster, and then my card quality is going to be better than your card quantity.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
06-03-2009, 11:36 PM
If you're playing llanowar elves you're most likely heavy green anyway, so this is irrelevant. And if you're not heavy green, then your deck is terrible and you have no chance and sol ring is infinitely better, not close.

That's a nice meaningless statement. Answer the question please; Blastoderm or Llanowar Elf?


Obviously there is removal and expensive spells. THERE ARE ALSO CARDS LIKE SAVANNAH LIONS THAT ATTACK THE OPPONENT ON TURN 2. Maybe your cube is just all control decks with aggro having no chance?

Most of the Cube lists I've seen are singleton. Even if your opponent picks up a fast decks- and it's really hard to actually pick up a deck that even goldfishes as fast as turn five- they're going to run into removal and other creatures.

I should point out that I'm all for picking up early play creatures and utility. I just pick up cards that will do something later on. Most limited games grind out to topdeck mode. Decks that do better in topdeck mode tend to win, which is why counters are rarely good and discard is almost universally terrible in this format. I don't play Hymn to Tourach and I sure as fuck don't play Sol Ring.


That's obviously not the strategy, that's terrible. However, hands with sol ring are going to be a lot faster than hands without sol ring. If I'm drafting the expensive ass bomb deck I also have early game removal and accel like KReach to go with it, and sol ring basically just makes it so my bombs come online 2 turns faster, and then my card quality is going to be better than your card quantity.

How does that make your card quality any better? It doesn't. And threats usually cost more, if they're powerful, than the answers to them. I only need 3-4 mana to deal with your 5-6 mana threats most of the time; at worst you're going to lose out at this race, if you're running Sol Ring as a spell slot. If you're running it as a mana slot, you're just fucking up your mana fixing for a pick you passed real threats and answers for.

Honestly, though, I can tell you why Sol Ring is terrible, but you're still free to first pick it all day. It's not going to do you any good, but hey, some people still think Extirpate is pretty keen.

Jujuhawk
06-03-2009, 11:48 PM
That's a nice meaningless statement. Answer the question please; Blastoderm or Llanowar Elf?

Blastoderm, but that's irrelevant, llanowar elves isn't even close to sol ring so it's a terrible comparison.

I'm basically going to ignore everything else because it seems as though you do not value getting 2 turns as head as highly as I do, and basically this is just going in circles, plus from what it sounds our cubes are very different. In the cube I use aggro is very good and a red deck can turn 5 easily.

nitewolf9
06-03-2009, 11:52 PM
You are missing the fact that Sol Ring can power out Spiritmonger 2 turns earlier. Wtf is that nonsense. GG.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
06-03-2009, 11:53 PM
Blastoderm isn't even close to most first picks in this format, so I think it's quite relevant. We're examining the principle. And there doesn't seem to be one. People first pick Sol Ring because they've been told to first pick Sol Ring. If you think Sol Ring even approaches the level of actual, meaningful tempo and card advantage you get from a card like Nevinyrals' Disk, or Cursed Scroll, or Umezawa's Jitte, then you're deluding yourself. Would it be nice to go turn 1 Sol Ring, turn 2 something like Ravenous Baloth, turn 3 Jitte and Equip? Sure. All things considered, though, I'll pick up the Jitte and then the Baloth and then I'll worry about maybe getting an optimal play where it comes down faster somewhere down the road where I've already secured the basic elements I need to win. I'd run all Moxen over basic land if it was an option in most decks, but running better basics doesn't take priority over having good spells.


You are missing the fact that Sol Ring can power out Spiritmonger 2 turns earlier. Wtf is that nonsense. GG.

Not if you passed up Spiritmonger to pick Sol Ring it can't. What, you think that shit's going to wheel?

andrew77
06-04-2009, 02:31 AM
Blastoderm isn't even close to most first picks in this format, so I think it's quite relevant. We're examining the principle. And there doesn't seem to be one. People first pick Sol Ring because they've been told to first pick Sol Ring. If you think Sol Ring even approaches the level of actual, meaningful tempo and card advantage you get from a card like Nevinyrals' Disk, or Cursed Scroll, or Umezawa's Jitte, then you're deluding yourself. Would it be nice to go turn 1 Sol Ring, turn 2 something like Ravenous Baloth, turn 3 Jitte and Equip? Sure. All things considered, though, I'll pick up the Jitte and then the Baloth and then I'll worry about maybe getting an optimal play where it comes down faster somewhere down the road where I've already secured the basic elements I need to win. I'd run all Moxen over basic land if it was an option in most decks, but running better basics doesn't take priority over having good spells.



Not if you passed up Spiritmonger to pick Sol Ring it can't. What, you think that shit's going to wheel?

Honestly it depends on the build of the cube you are drafting from. If its a 360 card cube that is designed well with a ton of bombs sol ring will probably be an amazing first pick, but if its a 600 card cube that is just a pile of good cards and no design to it sol ring would probably suck as a first pick.

Phantom
06-04-2009, 09:58 AM
Not if you passed up Spiritmonger to pick Sol Ring it can't. What, you think that shit's going to wheel?

Yes. Yes I do, and it often does. This argument is terrible, and something you would rip apart from the otherside. Hell, throw Spiritmonger into that sample pack you posted instead of Knight of the White Orchid. Now, is it possible it will wheel? Hell yes. Even if a player is specifically in BG, there's a putrefy sitting there.

I actually used to believe that Sol Ring was overrated in cube much like you. Then I played against it. Then I played with it. Turns out I was stuck in "regular" limited thinking. Bombs do wheel. Removal does as well. Fixing flys all over the place. Why? Because the cube is filled with these cards, and you will experience diminshing returns on them. Passing on one bomb/piece of removal in order to be able to accelerate all your other bombs, of which there will be many, is just fine with me.

Over on mtgsalvation there is a ranking thread where people are ranking their top 20 P1P1's for each color. Currently they are on artifacts. Every list I've seen so far has ranked Sol Ring number one. Now, that may not be correct, but the odds that all the people their, who clearly have cubed a lot, are not only wrong, but DEAD wrong seems unlikely.


Library of Alexandria is worse than Volrath's Stronghold

I can't see this being at all true. Library fits in every deck. Library wins you (well, me) 95% of the games which it is in my opening grip. Stonghold is slow, color intensive, more vulnerable, and restrivctive. While great I can't think of how the card would be in a similar tier to Library P1P1.

Happy Gilmore
06-04-2009, 10:15 AM
Rarely will I ever pick black lotus first. Sol ring on the other hand is the best car in any cube bar none.

I've been playing cube for about 6 months with friends and have drafted about 20 times with sol ring in my 45. I have never ever ever lost a game where I had sol ring in my opening hand. It is blatantly unfair to start any game 2 turns ahead of your opponent.

Guys guys....plz stop feeding "the Jack," he is dragging you in. You will never win, no matter how reasonable you arguments are or how wrong he is.

Jujuhawk
06-04-2009, 10:40 AM
The problem here is that people seem to be approaching Cube like they're building Vintage decks. You're not. Mana Drain is worse than Rout. Library of Alexandria is worse than Volrath's Stronghold. Ancestral Recall is worse than Skullclamp. Tinker is worse than Masked Admirers, and Sol Ring is worse than any given Dual. Your deck contains some truly busted cards from Magic's history, but you don't have the luxury of playing up to four copies and tailoring your mana curve for the turn three kill. Understand that you're still in a Limited environment and the rules of Limited apply.

I hadn't seen this post until now either, but it's ridiculous how wrong you are. Library is an auto-windmill. EVERY TIME (Well, that and sol ring are pretty close, but I've never opened both so I can't really say). If I'm opening a library I'm slamming it and going control immediately. The card advantage that you get from that card is unreal, and it's not slow like stronghold. I honestly don't understand why you keep saying we're acting like it's vintage. There's a reason these cards are all sick in vintage, and it's because they're powerful. If my limited deck has 2 pieces of power (say sol ring and ACall, basically unreal opens, or 2nd picks if you're sitting next to me) then it's closer to resembling a vintage deck. How is that not good?

If you're taking slower versions of X card over a piece of power, that's fine by me, ship along the sol rings and ACalls and enjoy your slower versions of these cards. If I play turn 1 library, and you play turn 1 stronghold, who's winning that game? If I play turn 1 sol ring, and you play a dual land, who's winning at that point?

You're basically ranking slower versions of X card over the more powerful and fast versions, and it seems as though your judgement is clouded by normal limited. Cube is not normal limited. If you're playing with 15 card packs, about 8 or 9 are going to be bombs, so one is probably wheeling. If you're playing a 2v2 with 9 card packs, about 5 of them are going to be bombs. Just because I'm taking a sol ring over a control magic doesn't mean my deck is going to end up terrible. I'm going to wheel something, not to mention the 6 picks in between, that are going to be playable.

If I have a deck with 16 or 17 lands, a sol ring, and 22 or 23 bombs, it's going to be leagues better than a deck with 17 lands and 23 bombs. Mine are going to get out faster if I get a sol ring or mox start, and my card quality is going to be higher than yours right out of the gates.

I would love nothing more than to 3v3 your team with mine, and we'll see who's decks end up better, the ones that have vintage power, or the ones that have stronghold and terramorphic instead of library and sol ring.

EDIT: Also, you say that sol ring is a terrible topdeck late game, but is terramorphic any better? Your taking a mana source over a sol ring, and they're equally bad late game, but mine allows my X spells to be better, or if I topdeck a draw spell I'm going to have an extra mana after I draw my cards.

EDIT2: I also just saw where you said land tax was bad in limited, so I'm basically not going to respond anymore because you're so dense and braindead. Have you ever fucking played tax/rack? If you honestly think land tax is bad then I don't see how you're winning cube drafts, unless you don't play for money and just don't take it seriously and spread your bullshit to your cubing friends and they get last pick sol rings that end up in their sideboard. Or perhaps you just don't like casting your bombs with mana advantage given through sol ring and land tax, but in any case, good luck.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
06-04-2009, 11:31 AM
Ancestral Recall is legitimately busted and I never said otherwise, so don't try to insert words into my mouth. Library of Alexandria is ridiculously good, but not as good as Volrath's Stronghold as a first pick. Library requires a certain stream of play to be good. If you're in a situation where you're forced to expend cards answering threats, which happens all the time, your Library is going to shut down and you're going to have a hard time getting it active again. Mind you, it's still pretty damned good if you've even drawn one or two cards at that point, but it requires that the pressure on you be low. Volrath's Stronghold is consistently ridiculous. I would easily splash a single fucking Swamp on the third pack just so I could play Stronghold. Volrath's Stronghold means never having to draw something that doesn't fuck up the opponent's game.

As for someone citing a list of people on MTGSalvation giving strategy advice... you're citing a list of people on MTGSalvation giving strategy advice. I'm sorry, you may be forgetting that this is where Cavius is actually respected.

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/1300/mtgsal.gif

Please, for the love of God, just everybody let's shut up with the attempt to argue that other people agree with you so it must be right. Magic theory isn't something where the majority is always right even in competitive formats. For months after Extirpate came out there was a general consensus that it was maybe good, while cards like Jitte, Tarmogoyf and Skullclamp were ignored for weeks. And those are heavily played, competitive formats, not a casual draft format. I fully agree that conventional wisdom on Cube drafting is to first pick Sol Ring; I also think it's a stupid meme that people repeat without actually understanding it, because they only see the situations where Sol Ring is really good and not the entirety of the repercussions that come of first picking the card. As proof of this, I point to the fact that Dominick is with the opposition.

Again:

I have no doubt that Sol Ring enables really powerful plays. Obviously if the rest of your mana base is stable and you've got a lot of bombs you want a card like Sol Ring to run as a 17th land slot that's going to accelerate into those cards.

The problem is that you're putting the wagon in front of the fucking horse chasing after Sol Ring before you get those cards. A stable mana base that lets you run all those bombs you've picked up is more important than Sol Ring; and those bombs are more important than that.

In terms of real card advantage, in terms of real tempo advantage, Wrath of God is just vastly better than Sol Ring. Sol Ring will never win the game for you the way Wrath can. This also applies to Jitte, to Ancestral Recall, to Volrath's Stronghold and Library of Alexandria and Skullclamp and Cursed Scroll and Vedalken Shackles. It is simply wrong to think that if you pick Sol Ring over Nevinyral's Disk, you will be benefited by it. In every deck conceivable, drawing and playing a Disk opens a far greater world of card and tempo advantage than Sol Ring can show you, unless it's accelerating you into cards like Wrath and SoFI. But certainly it's better to have Wrath and Jitte and SoFI and no Sol Ring than to have Sol Ring and none of the others.

Yes, there are many powerful cards in Cube, but it would be grossly mistaken to think that they are all equally powerful. If you already have a half dozen legitimate bombs and a stable mana base, perhaps it's wise to think about Sol Ring to accelerate you into Kokusho and Damnation and flashbacking your Chainer's Edict, or casting a Stroke of Genius or Upheaval. What's not wise is relying on the best bombs wheeling. Spiritmonger was a joke because it's the type of card that would be a bomb in regular Limited but is simply mediocre in Cube; but other cards in this format legitimately deserve to be first picked because they fuck up other bombs. If you pass me a card like Garruk or Elspeth because you're picking up the Sol Ring to accelerate you into more bombs, I'm happy because you've given me better cards than you can rely on wheeling.

Maybe this changes if you have an exceptionally small Cube; I've never even seen a 360 card list. It's certainly not true for normal lists, and especially very large Cubes like the Wizards Invitational one, which has quite a lot of fluff in it.

THEchubbymuffin
06-04-2009, 11:50 AM
http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/1300/mtgsal.gif


Dibs on this as my signature if pictures were allowed.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
06-04-2009, 12:02 PM
I should point out I got that from goodgamery.com

Phantom
06-04-2009, 01:06 PM
As for someone citing a list of people on MTGSalvation giving strategy advice... you're citing a list of people on MTGSalvation giving strategy advice. I'm sorry, you may be forgetting that this is where Cavius is actually respected.


This seems like airtight logic. You're accusing me (I'm assuming) of saying that you were wrong because people on salvation disagreed with you (which I didn't, thanks for reading) and respond with the flawless argument of "everyone knows people on salvation are idiots! This comic reflecting public sentiment proves it!" Don't you normally rail against this kind of thing? Oh wait, you did in the very same post. I see...


The problem is that you're putting the wagon in front of the fucking horse chasing after Sol Ring before you get those cards. A stable mana base that lets you run all those bombs you've picked up is more important than Sol Ring; and those bombs are more important than that.


I think here is a fundamental disagreement. I don't think drafting Sol Ring is putting the cart in front of the horse, I think it's buying a cart first, and paying a hefty price for it, because there are fucking horses (bombs and fixing) everywhere, where as there are very few carts, and certainly none on this level.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
06-04-2009, 01:20 PM
No, I'm saying that arguing, "People on MTGSal all agree on something", which is what you did, proves nothing.

And for the fiftieth time;

If you think all bombs are equal, you're wrong. If you think the bomb you fifth pick is as good as the one you first pick, you're wrong. If you don't think that there's a scale to the quality of each card in Cube, and that even in a pile with cards from tournament-winning Magic history, some vastly outshine others, then you're wrong.

If you pick Sol Ring over Damnation, or Jitte, or any top-notch bomb, thinking that it won't make a difference if you're reduced to picking up second tier removal and bombs later on, then you're wrong.

If you think the difference it makes to have the possibility of first turn Sol Ring will make up for the difference in quality between a deck that first picked the best bombs and removal, and one that picked up mana acceleration first instead, then you're wrong.

SpatulaOfTheAges
06-04-2009, 01:35 PM
I hadn't seen this post until now either, but it's ridiculous how wrong you are. Library is an auto-windmill. EVERY TIME (Well, that and sol ring are pretty close, but I've never opened both so I can't really say). If I'm opening a library I'm slamming it and going control immediately. The card advantage that you get from that card is unreal, and it's not slow like stronghold. I honestly don't understand why you keep saying we're acting like it's vintage. There's a reason these cards are all sick in vintage, and it's because they're powerful. If my limited deck has 2 pieces of power (say sol ring and ACall, basically unreal opens, or 2nd picks if you're sitting next to me) then it's closer to resembling a vintage deck. How is that not good?

If you're taking slower versions of X card over a piece of power, that's fine by me, ship along the sol rings and ACalls and enjoy your slower versions of these cards. If I play turn 1 library, and you play turn 1 stronghold, who's winning that game? If I play turn 1 sol ring, and you play a dual land, who's winning at that point?

You're basically ranking slower versions of X card over the more powerful and fast versions, and it seems as though your judgement is clouded by normal limited. Cube is not normal limited. If you're playing with 15 card packs, about 8 or 9 are going to be bombs, so one is probably wheeling. If you're playing a 2v2 with 9 card packs, about 5 of them are going to be bombs. Just because I'm taking a sol ring over a control magic doesn't mean my deck is going to end up terrible. I'm going to wheel something, not to mention the 6 picks in between, that are going to be playable.

If I have a deck with 16 or 17 lands, a sol ring, and 22 or 23 bombs, it's going to be leagues better than a deck with 17 lands and 23 bombs. Mine are going to get out faster if I get a sol ring or mox start, and my card quality is going to be higher than yours right out of the gates.

I would love nothing more than to 3v3 your team with mine, and we'll see who's decks end up better, the ones that have vintage power, or the ones that have stronghold and terramorphic instead of library and sol ring.

EDIT: Also, you say that sol ring is a terrible topdeck late game, but is terramorphic any better? Your taking a mana source over a sol ring, and they're equally bad late game, but mine allows my X spells to be better, or if I topdeck a draw spell I'm going to have an extra mana after I draw my cards.

EDIT2: I also just saw where you said land tax was bad in limited, so I'm basically not going to respond anymore because you're so dense and braindead. Have you ever fucking played tax/rack? If you honestly think land tax is bad then I don't see how you're winning cube drafts, unless you don't play for money and just don't take it seriously and spread your bullshit to your cubing friends and they get last pick sol rings that end up in their sideboard. Or perhaps you just don't like casting your bombs with mana advantage given through sol ring and land tax, but in any case, good luck.

I'm sorry.

Did you just say that Library isn't slow?

Are you going to choose to be on the draw every game, on the chance that you'll open Library?

Library is a really strong pick, don't get me wrong, but it's every bit as slow as Stronghold is, and more dependant on the rest of your deck.

phoenix33
06-04-2009, 02:35 PM
I'm sorry, you may be forgetting that this is where Cavius is actually respected.

I'm interested in your source of information regarding this matter.

TrialByFire
06-04-2009, 03:15 PM
I can't see this being at all true. Library fits in every deck. Library wins you (well, me) 95% of the games which it is in my opening grip. Stonghold is slow, color intensive, more vulnerable, and restrivctive. While great I can't think of how the card would be in a similar tier to Library P1P1.

This is absolutely right. Library is absolutely the most ridiculous 1st turn play in the format. It will put you ahead by so many cards over the course of the game it becomes almost impossible to lose. You will never miss a land drop (barring really bad luck) and you will draw all your relevant cards faster than your opponent. We used to joke that if an opponent played turn 1 Library and didn't have down syndrome, we would just scoop and go to the next game.

As the argument for Sol Ring goes, you can have your stupid black creatures. I'm taking Sol Ring. There are always more creatures, there is always more removal. This is fucking cube. All the cards are good (unless you built one of those 900 card cubes with shitty cards). If you draw it mid to late game, its usually still good because like all limited formats, you don't always hit every land drop. It might let you power out your 7 mana bombs, or maybe just draw 2 more cards with Stroke or deal two more damage with Banefire. The number of times it is truly dead versus the number of times its puts you that much ahead of the opponent is a ridiculous ratio.

One final time, the top 3 picks go as follows:

1. Library
2. Sol Ring
3. Umezawa's Jitte

T is for TOOL
06-04-2009, 04:00 PM
None of these posts have anything do to with the tournament report. If you want to discuss cube drafting strategies, do so in another thread. This one is being watched.
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Goblin Snowman
06-04-2009, 04:20 PM
Nightmare - How did the Snakes as a 2 of feel? Were they decent? If you're still reading this thread (unlikely) I'd appreciate a more in depth talk about that card specifically.

KrzyMoose
06-04-2009, 04:20 PM
irregardless

Not a word.

Can one of the mods like...move the cube discussion to a new thread? For a debate on the Intarwebz, this is about as civil as they come and may actually have some value.

Keep mod requests to PMs.
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