View Full Version : UGw WOrb/Coatl Grow splits finals

06-10-2009, 03:58 PM
The deck: Snakes on a boat 2.0

// Lands
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Tundra
1 [MM] Rishadan Port
1 [10E] Island (1)
1 [ST] Plains (4)
1 [US] Forest (3)

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [ARB] Lorescale Coatl
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [B] Winter Orb
2 [MM] Thwart*
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [OD] Divert
SB: 4 [DIS] Trygon Predator
SB: 4 [DIS] Leyline of the Void

*- My foil Thwarts were on order, and the shopkeeper nor the other players could find any in time, so I played 2 spell snares in this slot, which still allows me to counter spells at a lower cost than my opponent poured into them with WOrb in play, but lacks the mid-game rock-sauce that thwart has with Worb. SS did, however, win a game against belcher that Thwart would have been the goggles against.

Location: Sports Nutz, 941 Broad Street, Wadsworth, OH
Attendance: 21+ (I don't recall exactly how many players, but it was five rounds and I remember the TO saying we had over 20 players)
Format: Legacy, five rounds of swiss with cut to top 8

Round 1: vs Mike with 5c aggro slivers
I remember losing the die roll and Mike saying "I saw islands in your deck, so I'm going to need all the help I can get." He resolved his mulligans, and I remember looking at my hand of: trop, strand, goyfs, daze, spell snare, swords, swords, and thinking "well, SS + daze might get there against combo." He leads with an Ancient Ziggurat and my worries about combo instantly vanished. I felt a chill run up my spine when he tapped it for a virulent sliver. (as I had recently lost a casual game against my friend playing TSP block constructed sliver when he had an opening of triple virulent followed by two-headed sliver... ouch!) I drew and a brainstorm and made my trop, passing back to him. On his turn, a crystalline ate a spell snare, as I didn't fancy both my swords becoming dead, and despite my casual game previously, judged the crystalline to be more of a threat over the course of the game. I took one and a poison counter. (flashback to flash-hulk in vintage) My turn two I drew another fetch, fetched, and made a 3/4 goyf. He untapped, played a land, and correctly did not leave ziggurat as his untapped land to play a second crystalline sliver, daze-proof. Sadcakes. I untapped, drew a force, and thanked my brainstorm for existing, exchanging my brainstorm, my two dead swords, and a single blue mana for three fresh cards, including a second goyf and a Knight of the Reliquary. I shuffled the dead swords away with my remaining fetch and made a second goyf, swinging in for three. The rest of the game consisted of me attacking with two goyfs with knight on D growing +2/+2 a turn while thinning my deck, and me countering his might slivers.

Boards: -4 swords, -4 winter orb, +4 propaganda +4 trygon predator (not sure if this was correct retrospectively, but at that point I had not seen gemhide sliver.... just wait... it gets stranger. Had I, I would have likely boarded out the dazes and kept the swords in as a response to crystalline or as solid removal should he not draw them. I did see aether vial, so it's hard to decide which is more awkward, dead dazes following a vial/gemhide, or dead swords after or crystalline or with him responding via vial-ing in crystalline)

Game two I make a first turn noble hierarch, and Mike attempts a second turn might sliver, which eats a daze. My turn two, I replay land and I cantrip into a second knight and a trygon predator, and he makes his third land and a gemhide sliver, which I do not force. I play the knight and aggro him out. (as he has only a 1/1 whose important friend will be biting it to force, leaving him with small guys to my soon to be huge knights) He untaps and attempts a sinew, which draws the force, and then makes a winged sliver. I play my second knight and pass back, endstep the non-sick Knight sacs a dual to shuffle away my extra land from the brainstorm, gets a fetch, which is then sacced to get another dual. My turn I swing into his winged with one 6/6 knight, and make it an 8/8 after no blocks. Mike Eldami's calls for a SLIVER LEGION but cannot play it, and chumps with his winged the next turn taking eight again (from a fetch precombat). Though the following turn he finally makes his giant 8/8, (along with a 2/2 gemhide) I had made my trygon and he's low enough on life that the flightless slivers watch demise fly overhead in the form of an exalted manta-ray thingy.

After the match I ask to look at his deck, and recommend that instead of 5c aggro slivers, (which granted, probably get there aginst zoo or goblins with a turn three/four sliver legion) he might consider playing a form of 5c zoo with utility guys such as tidehollow sculler, bob, teeg, and meddling mage to make the control/combo matchups winnable. (His manabase consisted of 4 city of brass, 4 ancient ziggurat, 4 gemstone mine, 4 reflecting pool, 4 savannah.)

Games: 2-0
Matches: 1-0

Round 2: vs Joe with mono red imperial painter

Joe was probably the one deck I was least excited to play, as my dazes and orbs did little against him what with moxen, spirit guides, and city of traitors/ancient tomb to keep him rolling in the mana. The threat of a turn 2-4 kill also alarmed me, as did the potential for turn one/two gridstone followed by chalice at one. All this combined with a total of 12 red blasts maindeck made for an awkward matchup.

I win the die roll and keep a hand of tropical island, delta, brainstorm, spell snare, daze, coatl. I make my trop and pass the turn. He kept a one-lander and makes a turn one grindstone followed by top off of an ancient tomb. I draw a swords, and brainstorm turn two into a third land, knight, and a force, putting coatl, knight on top. I make my second land and pass back. he makes a painter's servant off his lonely tomb, which I spell snare. My turn three I draw and play my snake. He makes a chrome mox, REBs my snake, and plays a servant, which gets dazed. I play my knight, with force, (no blue cards) and swords in hand. On his turn he makes a third servant, with only one mana up, so no activation this turn. On my upkeep, I knight for port, draw a ponder, (active force) and swords painter. He tops in response to me porting his double land, fails to find another double land/servant, and knight ends the game in short order.

Boards: -4 WOrb, +4 trygon predator

Game two I keep a semi-slow hand of triple fetch, knight, swords, daze, ponder. Fortunately for me, Mike has a slow hand as well, he makes a turn two grindstone, and we play the land game until I make a turn four knight (I hadn't drawn any other permission other than daze, so swords on servant in response to a stone activation was my only out here. He is drawing lots of land, (which is unfortunate for him as he only saw one tomb and a mox game 1) and decides to start grinding me for two a turn, which unfortunately for him, only feeds my knight, which first fetches port to keep him off of servant, activation mana in one turn. (and should he make a land drop, I could daze the servant making him wait until his next turn to attempt the combo, allowing for a swords on his servant, and hopefully a cantrip into swords number two should the first be blasted) I port, but all he has is more grinding, two cards at a time, which now has boosted my knight to by two in addition to my initial triple fetch and port-fetch. I finally cantrip into a force to go with the nearly-dead daze and swords in hand, and the 8/8 knight starts a-swingin', the game is over in short order.

I console Mike for his mana-troubles, and assure him the matchup isn't as bad for him as it seemed, that the 12 blasts should be pure gas against me, as I generally don't have a fast clock, and his blasts can protect not only his combo, but his artifact mana and wincons from trygon, and his life total from coatl.

Games: 4-0
Matches: 2-0

Round 3: vs Bob with UGw Counter-top with Natural Order Progenitus

Bob wins the die roll, and has a turn two 1/2 goyf he attempts to draw a spell snare with, but my swords, force, SS, knight are none two concerned with the squire at the moment. I make a turn two hierarch and pass, and on his turn three, he plays the spell I suspected goyf was supposed to take a bullet for. I snare his counterbalance, and he plays a sad top, then attacking with a happy 3/4 goyf. I make a knight on my turn, and he forces, which I force back. Rather than play my swords into the daze I invalidated with having hierarch in the first place, I swing for one with the better birds. His turn he apologizes for ripping the counterbalance, and it resolves, and goyf bids farewell to the combat step with one last swing as he passes the 3/3 sick knight. I draw a ponder, which I decide to run into balance (as he's played no cantrips nor activated top yet, so he will likely have to put top on, top, as he doesn't have mana open to spin top and find a one. He activated the top's draw ability, and I respond with swords on goyf (though knight is going to be much larger, I am at a precarious 11 life after a swing with a 1/2 goyf, two swings with a 3/4, a fetch, and a force. This will also likely be the last time I will be able to force through any spells at one. With tops activation still on the stack, he blindly reveals (drumroll) ponder! Oh - what a dreamcrush. Goyf is now a 4/5 and I'm hellbent, having both my cantrip (which I resigned to taking one for the team) and my removal countered. (by luck of the 'balance) I pass turn. He ponders, makes his third land drop, and surveys my 3/3 knight. Luck shines on me, and he decides that a 4/5 is bigger than a potentially 4/4, and attacks. I block, sac to search for a fetch, and crack fetch to make knight a 5/5. He has no effects, and goes on full-blown tilt for not seeing the play. (to be fair to my opponent, I've had knight before in limited with panoramas, and despite seeing panoramas game one, I've have two opponents crash in game two to be 0-for-1'd by the onboard trick) I crash back for 10 over the next two turns, as I'm only drawing a one mana cantrip, one daze, one force, and a swords, and my opponent has three lands and counter-top. He finally lands a goyf, then accompanied by a Rhox War Monk, which he has to tap out to play. I daze, and he forces rather than attempting a counterbalance. I force (pitching a likely dead cantrip) and he blind balances.... FORCE! O god, what a dreamcrush. This leaves us in a very awkward position, me with an arbitrarily large (on defense mind you) knight, and him with two guys to swing back should I foolishly attack prematurely. (one of which has lifelink - ick) This game becomes very, VERY awkward, as I keep drawing one costs, rather than the six other three costs in my deck, all the while thinning lands endstep. Bob, while gifted in the arts of the blind counterbalance, has not drawn a single swords or path to exile, (he is running a 4/2 split MD) but has inevitability provided I don't draw a second threat to allow my knight to swing. He eventually draws a very-threshed mongoose, but is still to tilted to realize that he can kill me in two swings. (knight was short of swinging back for lethal with his lifelink bringing him to 13 at this point - and I had used knight twice before the situation became so dire to search fetches and grow +2/+2 each turn while thinning lands at twice the rate.) Therafter, I use knight to the point where it had obscene stats like 14/14 and had taken all but two fetchlands out of my deck, while still managing to have drawn four lands and no threats in that time period. His life-tilt finally cools off, and he realizes that I'm at nine, and he can have swung for 6, then 3, while going up to a comfy 13, but now he cannot without being attacked back. He taps top to draw a hierarch that he had been floating in the top three, and team swings, with a noble 0/1 laughing at me and literally blocking my knight's path to victory. This match has inspired me to replace a ponder with a singleton maze of ith to keep situations like this from happening again, and allow me to swing with a huge knight while not fearing a counter-attack, thus forcing my opponent into chumping and giving me inevitability with just a knight on board, and an additional, uncounter-able removal spell.

Boards: -4 ponder, +4 trygon predator

Game two I open with trop, hierarch. His turn one is a top. Turn two I play a goyf and keep hierarch back. He baits my spell snare/daze with a turn two goyf, which I allow to resolve. My turn three I fetch and make a 4/4 knight and attack with my 2/3 goyf past his non-exalted goyf. On his turn, he fails to play a third land , and runs out the counterbalance he was hoping goyf would jump in front of a spell snare to protect. I have the snare, and we both daze, and he replays his land and plays a ponder to make his goyf a 4/5 and hesitates before charging in past knight. I replay my land on my turn, with two active forces, (able to hardcast force by tapping a land, then replacing it with knight to make five mana, thereafter still being able to picth for the second) And swing exalted goyf, keeping knight back to enable the force, as well as grow to goyf-crushing size. I counter a swords targeting knight with the hardcast force, and he keeps goyf back in lieu of dying to a counter-attack on my turn. He blocks my goyf, and fails to draw three answers/permission to resolve two.

Game three we both have swords and permission, with only 1 threat each. (both which eat swords) Early in the game, with a pair of hierarchs staring at each other and life totals around 20, time is called.

Bob tells me that he was actually running natural order/progenetis, but after seeing all my hardcounters, boarded out the two-for-one ‘combo.’

Games: 5-1
Matches: 2-0-1

Round 4: vs Gus (YawgWill on the source) with 2 land belcher

I keep a hand of 2 lands, hierarch, Worb, knight, daze, swords, because I decide to pretend not to know he’s playing belcher. (as at a larger tournament, I would keep this hand in the dark against 99% of the field, and I don’t usually have the advantage of playing against my friends when they’ve told me what they’re playing) He turn one land grants and shows me his hand- 2x rite of flame, 2x seething song, dark rit, belcher, SSG. He doesn’t whiff on belching, so thats game 1.

Boards: -4 swords, -4 Worb, +4 trygon predator, +4 propaganda

Game two I mull to six and keep spell snare, force, coatl, hierarch, and two lands. He doesn’t go off turn one, so I luck out and draw another blue spell, allowing me to play my turn two coatl with force backup. He attempts to wish into goblins, and I force the wish, causing him to burn for four. Coatl starts doing his thing, and he tops a dark rit to go with his LED and attempts to infernal maintaining priority to crack the LED, and loses his hand and more life to my spell snare and mana burn still being around. I have a brainstorm next turn to grow coatl, and he concedes.

Game three I keep a hand with force, propaganda, ponder, daze, and three lands. I draw another blue spell for force and ponder into brainstorm and hierarch. I allow him to empty turn two for ten goblins, I brainstorm into garbage, and shuffle away two of the five lands I have in my hand with a fetch, then take ten before laying my propaganda. I draw two more proagandas, and no threats, and wait while he restocks his hand. I finally land a goyf, and his turn he attempts to belch with his stockpile of cards. My force gets REB’d, and my daze is paid for by SSG, forcing keeping him from activating belcher. I don’t find a trygon before he finds mana to belch. This was the longest game I’ve ever played or seen played against belcher.

Games: 6-3
Matches: 2-1-1

Round 5: vs Nathan with Ugw Coatl Countertop

He wins the die roll and game one we force-fight over his turn two counterbalance. My turn three, I play a coatl with him all but hellbent, and he shrugs and says “Okay”. On his turn, he draws and his face pales - (Fist pump!) I allow the coatl he just drew to resolve, and untap and send out a ponder-probe into CB before I swords his coatl, and Nathan draws the land he revealed against my ponder, and loses shortly thereafter to the coatl that should not have been.

Boards: -4 ponder, +4 trygon predator

Nathan is on the play, and lands a turn two goyf which we both have dazes ready for, and then a turn three goyf which I attempt to swords. He has the force, and I’m really never in this game, and the winter orb sitting in my hand doesn’t look so good on my turn three against his board of double goyf.

Game three I keep a hand of top, hierarch, goyf, spell snare, brainstorm, coatl, ponder. My turn one hierarch eats a ‘gut feeling’ swords on his turn one, and I fail to draw a land. I ponder into... no lands, and blind draw into.... not a land. Sadcakes. His turn two is a 1/2 goyf, and I finally find a second land with my brainstorm, but it’s not a fetch, and is accompanied by two non-land cards. I snare his counterbalance before attacks, and take 2 from his goyf before laying my own. We both draw permission, and I land a Worb to slow things down, especially since he is stuck on three tapped lands and using a top to attempt to get himself into gas. He finds and resolves a bob despite a counter-war, and I finally draw a third land 19 cards deep into my deck. I resolve the second three-drop I attempt, which is a predator. He starts taking top damage a turn from bob, while tying up his single untap by replaying top, occasionally spinning it or pondering with lands drawn. We both manage swords on each others’ goyf, (which are quite large at this point) and predator keeps hitting him, while for two turns bob sat back despite my board of Worb, lands, tapped predator. He eventually finds his sideboarded serenity to kill my Worb on his upkeep, but unfortunately for him, this only denies his untap, while I net two untapped lands after factoring in paying for the second orb in my hand. (which I had long ago considered dead) This allows me to play a knight and seal the game.

Games: 8-4
Matches: 3-1-1

We cut to top eight, which if memory serves me, consisted of:
1 GBw rock
2 UGw countertop decks
1 UGw Worb (me)
1 Belcher (Gus, who had only lost one game-to me, during the whole tournament)
1 Merfolk
1 Enchantress
1 UGr tempo thresh

Top Eight: : vs Nathan with Ugw Coatl Countertop

Game Nathan is on the play, one he has a turn five shackles with two mana up against my turn four coatl. Shackles. (See if you can find any answers in my maindeck)

Game two I have turn one hierarch, turn two knight, which I daze through. My turn three is winter orb. He swords’s the first knight, but I make another and port-lock him and bash with my 6/6.

Game three we both have our early threats swords’d, and I land a winter orb to slow the game. He gets stuck on three, and I make a hierarch and then a predator. He eventually untaps all his lands, and plays a shackles with no untapped lands against my board of predator. He extends his hand and shows me the top and counterbalance in his hand, and curses my winter orb.

Games: 10-5
Matches: 4-1-1

Quarterfinals: vs Gus with 2 land belcher

At this point, it’s nearly midnight and we all want to play EDH, so the top four decide to roll for the win, and the finals to draw thereafter. As Gus and my match is very much a die roll, We do so, and I win. With my store credit, I pick up a foil knight of the reliquary, a foil rav dual for one of my EDH decks, and some thwarts, which the store owner found just in time for the tournament to be over.

I believe the top four decks were:
BG Rock
2 Land Belcher
UGw Worb

Final Game Record: 10-5
Matches: Matches: 5-1-2 (split finals with BG rock)

06-10-2009, 04:00 PM
For those of you who are not familiar with the deck, it uses a shell of 4 FoW, 4 daze, 2-4 other counters alongside a cantrip engine of 4 brainstorms, 4 ponders/tops (possibly 4 opts/generic draw spell) and a creature base of 4 Tarmogoyfs (save for Doug Linn, who opts for the situationaly better Quirion Dryad) to control the board and resolve a Lorescale Coatl, thereafter utilizing the draw engine (and natural growth via the draw step) to grow Coatl into a monster and end the game in short order after that. Many decks have proposed splashes, either red for fire/ice and some number of REBs in the board, black for snuff out/smother/bob, (yes, though he lacks synergy with coatl, the cantrips and CA he provides have synergy with Coatl and winning in general) and/or white for swords to plowshares and sometimes Qualsi Pridemage. Many have also suggested simply grafting the proven counter-top engine or, as it feels to me, the win-a-WHOLE-lot-more loam/cycling lands/cephalid coliseum engine. I personally went through several incarnations of the deck over the two weeks worth of testing I went through before bringing it to a tournament:

1.0- inspired by the looters in Doug's deck, but wanting to maintain some kind of midgame domination should I NOT draw the Coatl, a straight UG shell with:
4 looter il-kor
4 coatl
4 dryad
(0 goyf)

4 relic of progenetis
4 back to basics
3 snakeform (oh yes, I went there)
3 umezawa's jitte

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 force
4 daze

18 lands including several basics and 4 terramorphic expanses in lieu of Onslaught fetches... again, this was the initial version, and very 'cute,' but hardly reliable, as often I would open with a looter/dryad who would eat a removal spell, and have a relic on board, perhaps a back to basics, and just die from an early resolved threat that I simply could not kill.

1.1- I'd decided I needed removal (more solid than the conditional snakeform), so I settled on splashing white for swords to plowshares, and eschewed the splash-hate of maindeck relics in favor of just running the lhurgoyf beat-stick. I still kept my back to basics idea here, but decided that having on-color fetches was a whole lot better than running the oft-despised to cantrip into/topdeck as your second land terramorphic expanse. The deck looked something like:

4 looter il-kor
4 dryad
4 goyf
4 coatl

4 swords

3 back to basics
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 opt
4 force
4 daze

20ish lands including
4 trops
1 tundra
4 flooded strand
4 windswept heath
x basics

The manabase was still a little off, and the dryad were becoming more and more depressing as they sadly watched opposing goyfs charge past, hoping and preying for cantrip into swords the following turn. The addition of goyf helped my early game immensely, as I generally wanted to play a turn two dryad, which I didn't mind being spell snared/daze, and then following with a turn three daze-proof goyf to hold the fort while dryad did its thing. I nealry considered dropping the dryads and adding more removal in 2-4 path to exile, but that did not seem synergistic with my goal of denying my opponent his mana with back to basics, I would have to find a better configuration.

2.0- I decided that dryad and coatl together was a major danger of cool things, and that Coatl at least pitched to force and grew itself if it was sitting lonely in my hand mid-late game, so I discarded the dryad, and with it, the other danger of cool things Looter Il-Kor, who was incredible when Jitte was in the deck, and with Coatl on-board, but just a series of slow, mediocre cantrips when the dream hand didn't work out, and as the deck already ran 8-10 card quality slots, I decided he could be replaced by another beater. The alternate plan of screwing an opponent out of the game via back to basics was not jiving well with having three colors and fetchlands that were awkward at times, along with cantrips and the distinct possibility of only drawing duals and splash basics, making back to basics force fodder or too symmetrical. I often found myself dazing my opponents spells that they could pay an extra mana for just to get a tropical/tundra back in my hand so that I could lay another threat/play a swords I'd locked myself out of. Once again, I drew upon my memory of Doug's article and a surrogate back to basics popped into my mind, one that I didn't have to mangle my manabase for, a card I had initialy discounted as too symmetrical - Winter Orb! With the additional hatred against pesky decks that liked playing basics AND untapping lots of lands each turn - I'm looking at you stacks, goblins, MUC, and dragon stompy- I needed ways to break the symmetry. Fortunately for me, legacy had recently received a decent influx of playable cards for UGw decks that had ways of 'cheating' on mana with WOrb in play. I came at last to a version of the deck that I would play to a 5-1-1 finish and tie for second at it's first tournament: (posted above - sorry this is choppied into bits- the entire TR was too long to go in as a single post)



My buddy Harrison for living the dream with my GB rock deck the first game of the first round, going turn one (on the play) veteran explorer, turn two swing one, blind therapy (for goyf-hit!), flashback for a force, fetch two swamps, hymn you. He did that twice over the course of the tournament, as well as once blind therapy-ing a rock deck game naming pulse. (hits TWO, with the only two other cards left in opponent’s hand being goyf, which a flashback stripped) Somehow, Harrison still managed to go 2-3 via some really bad beats. (Lost one game vs merfolk when he had hand of 1 forest, 2 factories, 1 top, 2 e plague, 1 pernicious deed, 1 maelstrom pulse on the play and failed to find any of 15 black souces in the deck over the course of them game.) Luck is a fickle mistress.

Gus for continuing to make sick alterations, and for going 6-1 to finish top 4 with belcher despite playing against four decks packing playsets of forces.

Sportz Nutz for hosting semi-weekly legacy events, and all the players for making a great meta and player base for local legacy players.

Winter Orb and Knight of the Reliquary: Both of these cards ended games in short order when they resolved, and were often undervalued by my opponents until their impact on the game state showcased how much they SHOULD have been forced.

Six man EDH at the restaurant in the TA at the intersection of 71 and 76.


There being THREE enchantress decks in a mid-sized tournament. I’m usually surprised to see ONE at any given mox tournament. Should my friend Harrision have not audible-ed at the last moment, there would have been FOUR, making for some unbearable mirror matches usually ending with a stack of 100 counters on helix pinnacle.

Coatl for being so damn threatening. Every time I played this card, it seemed, it was immediately countered or removed, so it’s hard to evaluate its’ performance against my other bomb CMC 3, knight. Further testing and tournaments may show this to be too ‘danger of cool things,’ leading to -4 coatl, +1 knight, +3 trygon predator MD.

Jokulhaups in EDH when a player has indestructible permanents. (BOTH games, once Uril with Shield of the oversoul, once against Sharuum with darksteel forge. In both cases, the red caster of ‘haups just wanted to end the game.)

My revised version of the deck is as follows:

// Lands
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Tundra
1 [MM] Rishadan Port
1 [10E] Island (1)
1 [ST] Plains (4)
1 [US] Forest (3)
1 [DK] Maze of Ith*

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [ARB] Lorescale Coatl
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [B] Winter Orb
2 [MM] Thwart*
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [LRW] Ponder*

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TE] Propaganda*
SB: 3 [DIS] Trygon Predator*
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus*
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip*
SB: 3 [NE] Submerge*


Notes on specific cards:

Vedalkin Shackles: If your metagame has a decent amount of blue-based control or midgame aggro-control, you should have some way to answer this card. Short of having more lands in my graveyard than in play, I cannot beat this card pre-boards if it has resolved, and an untapped shackles with two mana up is pretty much game against me post-board unless I happen to have two predators and can resolve swords on the burgled one, in which case Shackles is still a two-for one, at the cost of incredible tempo. I included Krosan grip as a reactive answer to both this card and counterbalance, as while trygon is better, he must resolve and swing before he can do his thing.

Noble Hierarch: I am convinced that aside from a deck built to abuse aether vial/lackey, this is the best turn one play you can make in legacy, and allows you so much incredible tempo while essentially blanking your opponents dazes. This allowed me to bash goyfs in instead of bouncing off each other, likewise for predators, and breaks the symmetry of cards like winter orb, daze, and rishdan port, while occasionally allowing you to get up to the mana to hardcast forces/thwarts. If you are ever considering adding 2-3 lands to your thresh deck to support cards like coatl, predator, counterbalance, mystic enforce, rhox war monk, natural order, etc, I highly recommend you test four hierarch in lieu of the extra lands. If you play straight Ugw, she also ensures an opponent’s waste never cuts you off a color. Should this card ever increase in popularity, I will likely have to revise my inclusion of winter orb.

Submerge: I have no early idea why I included divert in my side over this card, with the prevalence of Ugx decks in the format, this card can be anything from insane tempo to free removal, (in the case of responding to a fetch activation) and can still be relevant against BG rock-style decks. Even bouncing a goyf to the top can act as two free time walks when winter orb is on the table.

Thanks for reading everyone, and good day.

06-10-2009, 04:17 PM
What tournament was this in?

06-10-2009, 04:53 PM
It's worth noting that in the first post of this thread, Winter Orb was boarded out in three out of five matches.

Michael Keller
06-11-2009, 12:06 AM
My force gets REB’d, and my daze is paid for by SSG, forcing keeping him from activating belcher. I don’t find a trygon before he finds mana to belch. This was the longest game I’ve ever played or seen played against belcher.

You'd be surprised how many matches Belcher will end up restocking their hand playing the draw-go game and just hope you don't draw into more counter-magic before going for the win again. These games can be long and drawn out at times, especially if you can't find a legitimate threat in a few turns. Surprisingly, you lost to Belcher with a list applying a good amount of counter-magic. It happens.

06-11-2009, 04:19 AM
Game two I make a first turn noble hierarch, and Mike attempts a second turn might sliver, which eats a daze. My turn two, I use my three mana to make a knight of the reliquary.

Cheats I tell you! I fail to see how you have 3 mana turn2 after playing a Daze.

Congrats on the finish though. Great to see Winter Orb being played again but as someone said before, 3 out of 5 it came out and I had the same issue when testing it, most decks can work perfect under it. Every agro deck runs vials, ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh runs Daze and cheap cards themselves, the only deck type it bothers is control so maybe WOrb belongs in the sideboard to come in?

06-11-2009, 07:25 AM
At this point, it’s nearly midnight and we all want to play EDH, so the top four decide to roll for the win, and the finals to draw thereafter. As Gus and my match is very much a die roll, We do so, and I win.
I guess it wasn't sanctioned then.

06-11-2009, 08:53 AM
I would be interested in seeing the belcher list and see what minor changes he made (if any).

Congrats on the finish

06-11-2009, 11:30 AM
@Media314r8: I'm curious why to play Winter Orb maindeck rather than sideboard as suggested by Citanel?

06-11-2009, 11:57 AM
@ daze-> turn two knight: My bad, that must have been turn three, I was clearly writing far too much with only a small amount of notes and life total tracking. I suppose I should proofread my sequence of plays to ensure it actually makes sense in the future.

@ Skeggi (sanctioning): The tournament was sanctioned- the TO's reporter did not allow a four way tie, however it did allow a finals tie, for top 4 to split store credit/prize, we have to somehow determine who in the semi-finals gets the win, and Gus and I rolled for it rather than play for the DCI points.

From DCI:
09-06-1941215, Magic: Legacy-2009-06-03-Wadsworth: 2009-06-03 1st
8 John W. Pryor Tie 1827
7 Gus Schade Win 1827
6 Nathan W. Budney Win 1820
5 Nathan W. Budney Win 1813
4 Gus Schade Loss 1806
3 BOB(Jedi) t. HOLLAND Tie 1815
2 Joseph m. George Win 1814
1 Michael Paisley Win 1806

@ Worb MD: It was slightly unfortunate that I happened to play two combo decks (both of which play moxen) and another deck running hierarch. I still feel orb main is correct, and after playing again yesterday, 10 June, my friend played the deck for his first legacy tournament, and made top eight with it. He never boarded orbs out and orb-port locked two of his opponents. (I played Rb goblins because of the prevalence of counter-top decks and absence of E plagues, but showed up late, starting round two with 0 points, and lost 1-2 to ANT round one, then went 3-1, but didn't make it into the finals via tiebreakers.)

06-11-2009, 12:02 PM
It's worth noting that in the first post of this thread, Winter Orb was boarded out in three out of five matches.

I've tested UwG Worb, and Worb was hands down the worst card in many matches.

06-11-2009, 12:12 PM
In which matchups? Could be that the meta here is completely different WOrb is still good.

What do you suggest?

06-11-2009, 05:22 PM
@ Skeggi (sanctioning): The tournament was sanctioned- the TO's reporter did not allow a four way tie, however it did allow a finals tie, for top 4 to split store credit/prize, we have to somehow determine who in the semi-finals gets the win, and Gus and I rolled for it rather than play for the DCI points.

Blatantly and specifically illegal, both of you (and more importantly the TO and any judge in the room) should know that. Shame on them for allowing it. On a less grim note, it will be interesting to see whether your Thwarts make the WOrbs better...and if not, will you also board out the Thwarts when you sub out the WOrbs?

06-11-2009, 10:25 PM
I didn't have the thwarts in the tournament, and played spell snares in their place. My friend played the deck this week, and thwarts were incredible for him, as he would often have the mana to hardcast them with hierarch provided Worb was not down, in which case it was insane. He never boarded the orbs out, but I would keep in thwarts against anything I can think of. (even against belcher, swords and worb are worse , and you only bring in 8 cards against them)

06-12-2009, 05:33 AM
Blatantly and specifically illegal, both of you (and more importantly the TO and any judge in the room) should know that. Shame on them for allowing it.
Exactly my point. These sorts of actions undermine the integrity of sanctioned tournaments. You say you split the finals, but you didn't even make the finals. In fact, you should have been disqualified.

Further it's nice to see this deck has potential.

06-12-2009, 01:35 PM
first off why is everyone more worried about a local tournament rolling for wins wich is actually not illegal cuz there is no wagering betting or making and deals to get the win, instead of talking about the deck. Stop playing by prison rules and have fun playing magic. Having fun is the reason for playing not to be asses.

06-12-2009, 03:18 PM
first off why is everyone more worried about a local tournament rolling for wins wich is actually not illegal cuz there is no wagering betting or making and deals to get the win, instead of talking about the deck. Stop playing by prison rules and have fun playing magic. Having fun is the reason for playing not to be asses.
It's 100% illegal. That said, I'm not about condemning people for doing it (they likely didn't know it was illegal, and would be facing a Match Loss not a Disqualification). Therefore, we need to make a big deal about it so people know not to do it in the future.

You're not allowed to do a 4way split in exchange for prizes; that exception is only available for the finals of single elimination.

To wit:

143. Unsporting Conduct -- Randomly Determining a Winner: Players use or offer to use a random method to determine the winner of a game or match.
All Levels: Disqualification.
Using a random method to determine a winner compromises the integrity of the tournament. / Matches that result in a draw due to time are expected to be reported as such and are not excluded from this penalty if the players use a random method to determine the outcome.
At Regular REL, the Head Judge may, at his or her discretion, downgrade the penalty to a Match Loss if he or she believes that the player committing the infraction was not aware that what he or she was doing was illegal.
In most cases this penalty will be issued to both players, unless the other player calls over a judge as soon as the suggestion to randomly determine the winner is made.

06-12-2009, 03:18 PM
It's worth noting that in the first post of this thread, Winter Orb was boarded out in three out of five matches.
For that matter, Coatl seemed less effective than Knight and Tarmogoyf.

06-13-2009, 07:03 AM
For that matter, Coatl seemed less effective than Knight and Tarmogoyf.

Do you suggest -1 Coatl, +1 Knight?

I'm still kind of curious for arguments pro and contra Winter Orb maindeck.

06-14-2009, 01:30 PM
I became 2nd on a 17 people tournament with the following list:

4 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Rishadan Port
1 Savannah
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Windswept Heath

3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Lorescale Coatl
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Snare (did not have Thwart yet)
3 Winter Orb

2 Krosan Grip
3 Propaganda
3 Submerge
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Trygon Predator
1 Winter Orb

round 1 - Elves - 1-1
round 2 - Death & Taxes - 2-0
round 3 - 43land.deck - 2-0
round 4 - Merfolk - 2-0
round 5 - BGW Rock - 0-2
round 6 - Aggro Loam - 2-0

Against three decks Winter Orb main was very good:
Death & Taxes, 43land.deck and Aggro Loam.

Agains BGW Rock it was above average

Against Elves / Merfolk it got sided out.

I enjoyed the 2 Qasali Pridemage main very well! Would not change that.

3 Winter Orb main is enough for you'll find it with Brainstorm / Ponder when necessary.

After this tournament I would still play 3 Winter Orb maindeck for it (especially when an opponent outtappes) can decide games.

06-14-2009, 08:36 PM
When you're boarding in Propaganda, Winter Orb should probably stay in. Otherwise, I'd probably go for something else over Propaganda, since you can't really leverage it.

06-15-2009, 03:15 AM
That's true, but given my list (see previous post) what do you suggest to sideboard against Merfolk?

What I did was -3 Winter Orb, +2 Trygon Predator, +1 Krosan Grip

06-15-2009, 12:32 PM
When you're boarding in Propaganda, Winter Orb should probably stay in. Otherwise, I'd probably go for something else over Propaganda, since you can't really leverage it.

I don't think 2-land belcher is going to be terribly hampered by having winter orb + propaganda as opposed to just propaganda if they empty against me.

Worb would stay in against goblins, zoo, and merfolk, complimented by propaganda, but against combo, I have 4 essentially dead Worbs and 4 dead swords to board out, and propaganda can win should they take the EtW route, and at least pitches to force. Against slivers, I was more concerned with not being overrun, and still being able to use my counters should they land a vial, thus my choice of +4 trygon, +4 propaganda. It is also worth noting that ancient ziggurat cannot be used to pay for propaganda, so 1/5 of his lands essentially were allready 'locked' against propaganda.

06-15-2009, 01:32 PM
I think I agree that it would be better to (in my case) board against Merfolk:

-4 Ponder
-2 Spell Snare

+1 WOrb
+3 Propaganda
+2 Trygon Predator

06-15-2009, 05:24 PM
I have really liked Legacy's Allure and Seasinger against a lot of aggro. It makes the game unwinnable for UW Fish and Merfolk, though Seasinger and Thwart nonbo : ( I haven't done a lot with Propaganda; would you play it again?

06-16-2009, 02:02 AM
I am still in doubt, because for Propaganda to be really effective (as you want it) you also need Winter Orb in play. Propaganda on itself isn't a dead card, but against Vial-decks a Winter Orb is your own disadvantage. The question for me is: Do I really want to search for 1-4 Winter Orb and 1-3 Propaganda or will I use those 7 cards for 4 Ponder, 2 Trygon Predator and 1 Krosan Grip.

06-16-2009, 04:15 AM
Why don't you guys start a thread in N&D? There is talk about some other Coatl Gro deck, but this one takes a different approach.