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Enigma
07-19-2009, 07:37 PM
Co-written by Yan and Enigma

As some players noticed by the SCG reports Enigma and VsTheworld did a couple of weeks ago, one of the deck that made top8 and had a relative good success at the event was Ultimate Walker. We (me and Enigma) wanted to write up a primer about the deck I made and played for a couple of month.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardscans/MAGSHARDS/ajani_vengeant.jpg http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGLOR/jace_beleren.jpg http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardscans/MAGSHARDS/elspeth,_knight-errant.jpg

All started with a common UWB Landstill list with Vindicate and the new and so famous addition: Elspeth. Eventually, with the “domination” of Vial in the metagame, Standstill became not as good as before for two reasons:1. The first real reason was its casting cost: get spell snared and counterbalanced (which was dominant in Montreal’s metagame). 2. When you are playing Standstill, you have to counter Vial (another dominant card). Then, you lose your FOW for eventual back-up. As we will see, backing-up our Planeswalker is a key with this deck, because it makes so much CA. With the loss of Standstill as the main draw engine, we needed something else. We found it with Ancestral Vision and Jace Beleren. The goal of removing 2cc from the deck became really important and we then removed Counter spell from the deck, replacing it by a soft lock named Forbid.

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/83/2ccy.jpg

Let’s go card by card with the original list:

Artifacts
2 Crucible Of Worlds
3 Engineered Explosives

Instants
2 Cunning Wish
3 Daze
4 Fire / Ice
2 Forbid
4 Force Of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords To Plowshares

Planeswalkers
1 Ajani Vengeant
2 Elspeth, Knight-errant
2 Jace Beleren

Sorceries
4 Ancestral Vision
1 Decree Of Justice

Basic Lands
2 Island
2 Plains

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Polluted Delta
2 Tolaria West
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Relic Of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Meddling Mage
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Extirpate
1 Misdirection
1 Path To Exile
1 Pulse Of The Fields
1 Pyroblast
1 Wing Shards

Crucible of worlds :
First question we were asked : Why 2? Firstly, in a control deck, we always felt it’s a game changing (no color screw, every land drop, possible lock and infinite blockers). Secondly, the addition of Forbid made the card so much better. In late game, we just discard lands to pay the buyback.

Engineered explosives:
Simply the best removal in the format. Soon to be 4-of. Auto-include. +2 Tolaria west means 6 possible E.E.

Cunning Wish:
Control needs answers. This card is all about answering everything: from Ichorid, to Progenitus, Burn, Lftl, Ancestral Vision (Misdi ), CB… Name it. Why only 2? Most of the time you need only once in the game, the second one is always overkill and will be removed to FOW.

Daze:
Don’t need anymore. It was the weakest card and we cut it for an addition Jace, Explosives and going back to 60 cards. The goal was trying to back-up the planeswalker but the replacing cards are just plain better (you always want an E.E. in your hand).

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/5553/dazecopy.jpg

Fire/ice:
The first draft of the deck was including Humility and F/I was the main reason to play red because of its 2-for-1 ability. We soon realized it had synergy with Ajani Vengeant, which is better than Humility (No more krosan grip target, pure CA compares to Humility and an insane ultimate ability). 8 Spot removals give a match against Vial’s deck and Survival.

Forbid:
No more vulnerable to spell snare, and the possibility to have a late game soft lock (Draw step + Jace + Vision = at least 1 counter each turn).

FOW:
Auto-include.

Spell Snare:
4 would be good, but it’s hard to cut something, and 3 is still pretty good. With explosives, the 2cc permanent are still easy to deal with anyway.

Stp:
Auto-include

Planeswalker’s team:
Since the introduction of those cards, a couple of standard players tried it in their decks and realized how it’s good. Elspeth has been the first one introduced in Legacy that had a real influence in the metagame. They make a lot of CA in synergy with your deck and they are crazy hard to deal with in a heavy control spell’s deck like Ultimate Walker.

1 Ajani Vengeant:
It slows the game until it wins it and removes creatures while gaining life. It has a good synergy with F/I and is really good combined with his team (Elspeth and Jace). It gives a match again lands.deck and mirror (any control deck (same thing for Elspeth and Jace)).

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant:
It’s the most game-breaking card in the deck. It kills fast, or stalls forever. If it stays, it wins (infinite blockers at nine counters).

2.. now 3 Jace Beleren:
With the high amount of spot removal, it stays in play. If you play it on an empty board, you feel the victory (the same feeling with a Dark confidant that sticks, but harder to deal with). At the end, it can just finish your opponent by decking him (White Stax, Mirror, Mighty Quinn… (or any control deck)).

Ancestral Vision:
It’s our main draw engine. A must counter for any aggro-control or control deck (as standstill was before). Drawing 4 cards in a turn (sometimes 5 with Jace (hihi)) is that good. With all the removals and recursive E.E., it makes this card good and not that slow.
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/2821/4ancestrals.jpg
4 Recall ? Why not.

Decree of justice:
You never want to see more than once in a game but its ability to end the game on late game is still good. It’s a good combat trick and a way to protect the walkers.

Lands:
4x Basics: A must against Blood moon and wasteland.
3x Tundra: with the 2 plains, and 4 flooded, it’s enough.
3x Volcanic: Fire is important. 2 wasn’t enough.
1x Underground Sea: EE at 4 and Extirpate.
5x Fetches: Without brainstorm, we don’t need that much. Just enough to fix the color.
2x Wasteland: You don’t want to color screw. It’s more for the Crucible lock and the man lands. Plus, it can be fetched with Tolaria.
3x Mishra’s: Too much colorless to include the fourth one. Tolaria west again.
2x Tolaria West: E.E, Mishra, Ancestral Vision, Academy Ruins, Wasteland… and it passes under opponent’s standstill. It’s another “Cunning wish” for 0cc cards.
1x Academy ruins: E.E. recursive gives games by itself.

Sideboard:
Wish targets:
Extirpate: Deal with waste, mishra’s, Lftl, Ichorid, Bridge, random noob combo…, name it.

Pyroblast: additional counters and destroyes annoying blue permanents.

BEB: A response to every moon effect and DS and general.

Path to Exile: 5th swords.

Pulse of the field: Auto-include with Cunning wish.

Dismantling Blow: 3 for 1 looks good to me.

Wing shards: Against swarm agro, Progenitus, Mongoose, ETW.

Misdirection: Another weapon for the mirror match and burn (Banefire, fireblast…)

Permanents:

4x Meddling mage:
We were needing something else against combo (ANT, Ichorid, Natural Order) and Loam.

3x Crypt effect:
I feel Ichorid is a better MU than what it was with landstill because of fire/ice and planeswalker. With Extirpate, the 3 crypt effect looks enough.

2 Relic: Against any control, loam and tarmogoyf, it’s better than Crypt.

1 Crypt: Good synergy with Tolaria West.

The final list:

// Lands
2 Island
2 Plains
2 Tolaria West
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
1 Polluted Delta

// Spells
3 Jace Beleren
1 Ajani Vengeant
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Engineered Explosives
4 Ancestral Vision
2 Cunning Wish
1 Decree of Justice
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Force of Will
2 Forbid
3 Spell Snare
4 Fire/Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Dismantling Blow
SB: 1 Pulse of the Fields
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Wing Shards
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Hydroblast
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Misdirection

Klaus' list:

4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Helix
1 Firespout

4 Ancestral Vision
3 Brainstorm
1 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Crucible of Worlds (-1 CoW, +1 Land? (U. Sea? Tolaria W.? Tundra? Basic?))
3 Engineered Explosives

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Ajani Vengeant
2 Jace Beleren
1 Decree of Justice
---------------------------
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Plains
2 Island
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island

1 Academy Ruins
2 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory



Match-up coming soon…

Yan & Pierre-Marc

Ectoplasm
07-19-2009, 08:19 PM
Just a heads-up, the deck looks very fun (planeswalkers!), going to build this in MWS and give it a spin!

DragoFireheart
07-19-2009, 08:27 PM
I just knew Jace would show up, and it's no surprise that it would be some sort of Landstillish / control deck.

MTG-Fan
07-19-2009, 09:50 PM
I'm glad Ancestral Vision is finally getting some respect in Legacy.

I consider it one of the top 5 draw spells in the format.

sauce
07-19-2009, 10:10 PM
the whole 2cc not being good is true to an extent.
but ... you're playing fire/ice and you're not playing goyf.
i understand the color considerations here, but why no brainstorm, is ancestral visions > brainstorm in your mind?
i would almost rather run threads of disloyalty over forbid.

Mystical_Jackass
07-20-2009, 12:33 AM
Pft... not Ultimate planeswalker till you wish in Nicol Bolas :cool:

This deck works? Seems kinda slow though, compared to how fast zoo and other tribal are these days, makes me nervous seeing no board swipe @.@ White & zero WoG?

bowvamp
07-20-2009, 12:38 AM
The draw seems a bit slow. Have you guys tested against heavy discard?

Valtrix
07-20-2009, 12:55 AM
The draw seems a bit slow. Have you guys tested against heavy discard?

Since when has heavy discard ever been a relevant concern for the legacy metagame? The most discard you'll be likely to ever face is thoughtseize + hymn, which is from only a couple decks barely anybody plays. You may get therapied occasionally, but that's not huge either. When seeing something as slow, I'd look first to see how it does versus things that want to out tempo you.

Also, there's probably not much point in asking questions until the matchups are written, since that will probably answer a lot of questions (And raise new ones) :P

Adan
07-20-2009, 01:13 AM
Although this "pile" looks a bit random, I really like the approach.

We had a long debate about the format sucking because it's dominated by Counter-Top-Goyf and how it spoils the fun. That's why maindeck Spell Snare is necessary because the most dangerous threats are still in the CC2 slot.

Ancestral Visions also seem to be strange, but since I have played Kadaj's MUC some time ago, I could really see they are the more efficient carddraw in compairison with Standstill.

Which leads to your first point of your primer which I really agree with: Standstill is the most situational carddraw in the Legacy format.
There are too many situations where you'd be stupid as hell to play it (Ather Vial, sometimes Nimble Mongoose). In some occasions, you can also get blown out of the water if the opponent is also playing a lot of manlands or Decree of Justice.

But pretty nice writeup, this deck definitely has got my attention now (especially now that you've cut Dazes ;-) ).

Mystical_Jackass
07-20-2009, 01:28 AM
Yea, I do look forward to reading about it. I like the strategy locking people out with elspeth, draw, and counters. I can see how it shuts down late game, looks like the hardest part is holding them off till you get get those 4cc game winners out and just plain drawing them on top of that. Ancestral vision's an awesome spell on turn 5.. but only if you're still alive by then. Still I can't wait to hear more :)

snorlaxcom
07-20-2009, 01:36 AM
No goyf or tops? I like it!

Roman Candle
07-20-2009, 01:51 AM
What is the reasoning behind the lack of Brainstorms?

GiantGrowth
07-20-2009, 02:24 AM
I took this deck out for a spin on MWS and I want to say that it really wtf pwnes zoo. The games took forever, but I either killed everything he played via swords or recurring EE, or I got out the crucible and stuck him on 2 basics while I had 2 spell snare. I really like the deck, great job on it and the primer!

4eak
07-20-2009, 02:29 AM
Very interesting deck. I like it. It breaks the symmetry of sweepers, and the walkers are very flexible. I'm not accustomed to red in pure control, so that was a nice surprise.

Please tell me more about your thoughts on Brainstorm and Top. I realize you only have so much room, but Brainstorm does look pretty strong in this deck, especially if you happen to have multiples of walkers. As for Top, I think a singleton wouldn't be a bad idea to test, as it avoids diminishing returns and remains pretty powerful.






peace,
4eak

Shawon
07-20-2009, 04:37 AM
The approach of building a deck resistant to Spell Snare and Counterbalance makes a lot of sense. I like it.

However, something's not right.

If you want to be immune to Counterbalance, which is why you don't want to run Standstill, why would you run Ancestral Vision? :confused: It's 0 mana, so if your opponent has counterbalance, all they need to do is flip a land and your draw spell is countered. Unless I'm mistaken, most CB decks run more lands in their deck than 2 cc spells.

Also, by changing the mana curve of the deck to be immune to Counterbalance, and using the 3cc Forbid as a counterspell, doesn't that invite the deck to be more vulnerable to Daze? Or Stifle on your Ancestral Vision? EDIT: Wouldn't Fact or Fiction be better at dodging CB, but then again it doesn't help your mana curve problem.

EDIT: I took another look at the final list. 22 land + 2 Tolaria West =does/not= 24 land. Also take into account the list contains SIX colorless lands. How do you beat decks like Tempo Thresh, Eva Green/Team America? Resolve Crucible at all costs? I think that's a longshot.

Overall, I feel like Ultimate Walker sacrifices too much in order to minimize one specific weakness, Counterbalance (and Spell Snare), and what it sacrifices are actually the basic core principles of a control deck, which is to have a stable manabase, and be able to cast and protect your spells. Actually, I'll take that back since you run Spell Snare (and Fire/Ice), but still, the manabase is shaky, and the deck has a high mana curve that makes all of your plays clunky.

Yeah, you resist Spell Snare/CB with Forbid, but you also weaken your ability to protect your bombs when you play them.

In conclusion, I actually like the deck, but someone's gotta ask the tough questions. Good luck in developing the deck!

Skeggi
07-20-2009, 04:55 AM
I would add Moats and Humilities. 2 of each I think.

GGoober
07-20-2009, 11:52 AM
Personally, I like the deck, but honestly I think the deck is far from optimized. Some card choices are just not justifiable. Here're some that I see and argue against:

The 22 lands with 2 West is cute, but if you refer to landstill lists that test heavily, Tolaria West should never be included as a landdrop since it's a horrible Landdrop and should only count towards the "24th" land drop like EDragon. Your deck is heavy on the 4-drop and you should be happy that you have been hitting landdrops consistently. Even in basic-heavy Landstill builds, reaching 4 mana is a little hard in a meta of wastes/stifles/sinkhole. 22 Lands + 2 Tolaria West just does not cut to it. West is cute with Visions, but ultimately, Visions is too situational.

There was a thread with Visions v.s. Standstill a few months back on the source and there's a conclusion that both were situational cards, with Visions being "worse" in a sense that at the very least, you play Standstill ONLY if you have board or card position. No one is going to drop a Standstill against Vial. The very most risky play is to drop Standstill against Bob, and this is possible, but is dependent on the cards in your hand and against certain versions of bob.dec. The many points raised in the thread include:

Visions resolves, you draw 3 cards. Visions isn't situational on the board while Standstill is. If you have board position, then Standstill > Visions because it's a better topdeck and gives you cards or lets you sculpt your hand while they do not crack Standstill. Regardless, you're earning in the end. However, Visions fall under a ton of even more situational scenarios. If you drop Visions and I resolve a Standstill, you're going to cry as suspend is not a "may" resoluation. If you drop Vision and Countertop gets through, that's another problem. Visions is prone to Sprites, and also the suspending turns allow your opponent to build up cards to counter it. 4 Turns to find an answer isn't hard, and it's almost as situational as Standstill. I think that saying Standstill is susceptible to Snares and CB is true, but it's not an argument to excludes its utility since Goyfs are susceptible to Snares and CB. Your argument must be tailored to why Visions is better in your deck. You've laid certain points and they're valid since Visions feed Forbid, but so does Standstill (which happens to net Ancestrall Recall CA as well). Visions is better in your deck because you can Tolaria West tutor for it but what are the situations where you will tutor for Visions and let it resolve in 4 turns? When you're winning more of course! What happens when you are getting beaten in the face? You would more than likely tutor EE or play that land tapped to get more mana to play planeswalker/removal.

As a big lover of Landstill, I don't like the arguments that you propose against Standstill. It's the most situational draw that's true, but the deck is tailored to abuse it the most. We are seeing Landstill playing 3 instead of 4 Standstills but that's because of the meta shifting to vial decks (merfolks). However, recent Landstill builds have much better matchups against Folks with a good board plan, as well as knowing the deck better. For instance, dropping to 2 Standstill is great on the draw agains Merfolks after you lost game 1 since you won't get them early, and you can land it later after you've reset the board with EE/Disk/Wrath.

I cannot justify the lack of Brainstorm. There's a reason why it's restricted in Vintage despite the format having so much filtering power. Brainstorm is in par with Recall in terms of card knowledge (not card advantage) and is one of the biggest spells for a control deck to dig for answers. The only reason why I see you not running Brainstorm is because you run 3 Jace, but Jace is board dependent. He does detract attention from you when creatures swing to him, but then he just becomes a bad 1UU draw a card whereas you could have had a U: Draw 3 cards and dig for answers against a board.

I understand how this deck made T8 in the meta. It's a good deck, but I think it's unoptimized and not running Brainstorm or focusing too much on Visions is not too good. Perhaps you didn't run into decks that disrupted your manabase, or had Top/Standstill against Visions. In every way, Fact or Fiction >>> visions, but I think you can't run those since your curve is already very high. I do like Forbid over Counterspell and might consider it in Landstill myself, but in all honesty, Forbid <<< Counterspell or even negate if you're faced against Tempo Thresh/TA/Eva/waste.dec/stifle.dec. This deck is strong because it plays a group of permanents that Legacy is not experienced with i.e. Planeswalker. I do like how you manage to use Vengeant to its fullest in Legacy, but I think he's at best the 3rd best Planeswalker, and he's good to a large extent only because REB/Pyroblast in the board is larger than blue in this format.

Hope this is a civil discussion and contribution to this thread. Just curious though, is this deck considered to be established with only one tournament result and no deep discussions at all?

FoolofaTook
07-20-2009, 03:28 PM
This is a really nice anti-CB-Goyf list. It makes Spell Snare next to useless and significantly weakens CounterTop. Its value is very strong in metas that are heavy in the Goyf-CBTop engine. It's probably less strong in metas that are Landstill heavy.

I suspect that it'll stay strong as long as CounterTop is the primary blue archetype in play. It'll be interesting to see how it does if Landstill continues its resurgence and begins to overtake CounterTop in the played lists.

Bahamuth
07-20-2009, 03:54 PM
- How the hell does this deck not play Brainstorm?

- Why do you run only 3 Factory?

- What makes Ancestral Visions any good? Control is all about surviving the early game and gaining position later on. AV hits way too late for that to have any effect. The card is almost dead against anything aggro-ish.

- What justifies Fire//Ice over other spot removal? Why won't you run PtE main?

- Forbid seems like a card that's either a 3CC counter with no benefit, or a complete overkill. Is this card really that useful, and can't you win the games you win on it anyway?

beastman
07-20-2009, 03:58 PM
I tried this out on mws and got murdered by goblins. I think you could use a few more sweepers main.

Unknown13
07-20-2009, 04:14 PM
I watched this deck play all day at the 5k, and every time you got Ajani Vengeant in play, you just crushed your opponent. Why only run 1? Its a ridiculous threat against both aggro and control.

mossivo1986
07-20-2009, 04:14 PM
what does it take to establish a deck on the source?

leander?
07-20-2009, 04:19 PM
- How the hell does this deck not play Brainstorm?
Indeed. Why? Just why?:eek:

FoolofaTook
07-20-2009, 04:23 PM
Brainstorm or Ancestral Visions which is tutorable by Tolaria West? I think once they've decided to run the Tolaria West engine then Ancestral Visions becomes a compelling addition.

Adan
07-20-2009, 04:24 PM
- What justifies Fire//Ice over other spot removal? Why won't you run PtE main?

Fire//Ice can generate CA by hitting 2 X/1 weenies or cantrip and generate speedadvantage. And the tap effect is pretty naughty with Ajani Vengeant.

GGoober
07-20-2009, 04:30 PM
As i mentioned earlier in my post. tolaria West->Visions is a win-more strategy. Control decks do not have the luxury of win-more games since they're easily crushed by fast aggro. Countertop Thresh is easy even for the Landstill player. i can see this deck crushing countertop but Landstill does that fine. Multiple testing shows that Landstill ignores Countertop anyway, and in Vindicate builds, you deal with much more. 6StP Landstill builds have a little more trouble against Countertop but in general, Landstill is gaining popularity as Countertop deck is gaining strength. This deck is good against Countertop but I can in paper say that it loses horribly and has a much weaker matchup against other forms of Aggro decks, especially fast one. Fire//Ice does nothing against Zoo.

Tolaria West->visions is great but only when you're winning. Taking a turn to tutor up Visions on Turn 3 and playing on Turn 4 is bad. If you tutor up visions and play it on Turn 4, it's still bad since you can only start drawing on turn 7. You only make such a play if they have no board and what's the point in drawing then? Are you saying that by turn 4, this deck has answered all threats on the board with just StP and Fire//Ice? Landstill runs up to 10-15 MD creature hate spells (including EE/Disk/humility/Wrath ) and many times it still faces an unstable board. Planeswalker help a ton but only Elspeth is the real threat since she keeps growing and can protect herself. Vengeant comes close to delaying the field, but is only effective agaisnt threat-light decks such as Thresh or countertop. Against Zoo, this deck needs SB Firespout or risk losing fast.

I'd rather have Brainstorm for turn 1s to dig for FOW/Snares/StP against Lackeys and Vials and hide my stuff from Thoughtseize/Hymn, and draw at instant speed after cracking Standstill and digging another 6 cards deeper.

This deck has good card draw but lacks card filtering. There's no guarantee that Jace will draw you into your answers. I'm not attacking the deck, but I would like to see the arguments for not including Brainstorm, which is notoriously the best card draw in the early game in this format, not to mention THE best card draw for control players.

MTG-Fan
07-20-2009, 05:06 PM
what does it take to establish a deck on the source?

Tournament placings, mostly.

sauce
07-20-2009, 05:25 PM
ajani's ultimate is only good vs slow decks, decks not running burn, and decks not running stifle.
plus if you really want to destroy lands why not run white staxx?
ajani's tapping 1 dude down is weak for legacy, esp since it costs 4 mana to do it. i would rather just play shackles and steal their dude forever.
sure planeswalkers are difficult to deal w/ outside of vindicate and burn, but is a 4 mana spell really what this deck needs, if so why only 1?
the pile is a oddball mix of landstill and tempo thresh imho.

beastman
07-20-2009, 06:26 PM
Tournament placings, mostly.

Also, a well written card choice description and matchup analysis is needed too.

JeroenC
07-21-2009, 07:38 AM
Tournament placings, mostly.
I think he was being sarcastic.



ajani's tapping 1 dude down is weak for legacy, esp since it costs 4 mana to do it. i would rather just play shackles and steal their dude forever.
The amount of times I staring down one dude is too numerous to count on one hand. It's also a way to slow down their mana, etc, etc. It's a way to slow them down while you become stronger.

beastman
07-21-2009, 01:21 PM
I think he was being sarcastic.



The amount of times I staring down one dude is too numerous to count on one hand. It's also a way to slow down their mana, etc, etc. It's a way to slow them down while you become stronger.

Ajani cant keep creatures tapped.

JeroenC
07-21-2009, 01:42 PM
Goyf attacks.
I play Ajani, "bind" Goyf.
Goyf does not untap.
I bind him again.

Seems like I'm keeping it tapped.

sauce
07-21-2009, 03:52 PM
for 3 mana you can own goyf, for 4 mana you can tap goyf.
seems terrible.

Patrunkenphat7
07-21-2009, 04:18 PM
for 3 mana you can own goyf, for 4 mana you can tap goyf.
seems terrible.

That's a pretty surface-level analysis of ajani vengeant. He can keep any permanent tapped down, gain you life, kill medium/small dudes, bolt your opponent in the face, and occassionally destroy all your opponent's lands (good game). And each turn he can do something different than the last turn. Comparing this planeswalker to a single-purpose enchantment doesn't make too much sense.

He's definitely a really good tool, especially in a format where a lot of decks don't have an extremely large number of threats, and decks aren't usually prepared to deal with a resolved planeswalker, especially when backed by counterspells.

beastman
07-21-2009, 04:20 PM
My bad, I thought it couldnt target creaturtes. Lern 2 reed newb

Unknown13
07-21-2009, 04:22 PM
for 3 mana you can own goyf, for 4 mana you can tap goyf.
seems terrible.

He beats control/aggro if unchecked, is a win condition, keeps factories, goyfs, noughts, ect... under control. Its synergistic with fire/ice, and is a continual source of card advantage. So heres a thought: Try testing the deck instead of bashing its card choices without bringing anything intelligent to the table. Or you can continue to post fail one liners. Whatever you think works better for you.

sauce
07-21-2009, 04:23 PM
That's a pretty surface-level analysis of ajani vengeant. He can keep any permanent tapped down, gain you life, kill medium/small dudes, bolt your opponent in the face, and occassionally destroy all your opponent's lands (good game). And each turn he can do something different than the last turn. Comparing this planeswalker to a single-purpose enchantment doesn't make too much sense.

He's definitely a really good tool, especially in a format where a lot of decks don't have an extremely large number of threats, and decks aren't usually prepared to deal with a resolved planeswalker, especially when backed by counterspells.

believe me, i play type2 and i played ajani vengeant, i know how amazing he is. i just dont think he is amazing enough in legacy.
good decks have daze, and fow main as well as sower (4 drop) and counterbalance.
resolving a situational 4 mana card that has very little impact on the immediate board seems terrible in a format where turn 1, 2 and 3 wins from combo decks are common.

MTG-Fan
07-21-2009, 04:55 PM
believe me, i play type2 and i played ajani vengeant, i know how amazing he is. i just dont think he is amazing enough in legacy.
good decks have daze, and fow main as well as sower (4 drop) and counterbalance.
resolving a situational 4 mana card that has very little impact on the immediate board seems terrible in a format where turn 1, 2 and 3 wins from combo decks are common.

this

FoolofaTook
07-21-2009, 06:28 PM
resolving a situational 4 mana card that has very little impact on the immediate board seems terrible in a format where turn 1, 2 and 3 wins from combo decks are common.

How many decks don't have something that you want to lock down on turn 4 or 5? Basically it's just the combo decks. I see a storm combo deck about every 4th tourney these days. That makes Ajani Vengeant likely to have impact when he lands about 13 out of every 14 rounds.

For a control deck I actually can't imagine that there isn't something I want to lock down by the midgame in most game because there usually is. Of course I'm usually using one shot solutions to do it. Being able to throw out a permanent to handle the situation that then allows me to switch targets when I've decided to remove the main problem (or priorities change) sounds like a win-win, particularly when that permanent can end the game for me at that point also.

And on the storm combo decks: even then mana can be a real issue for them. Keeping an Underground Sea tapped endlessly gives them yet another thing they need to draw into before they can go off in a lot of cases.

Tacosnape
07-21-2009, 07:53 PM
In addition to "Why not Brainstorm," why red as the third color?

Don't get me wrong. I love Ajani Vengeant here. Locking down forces them to overextend. Repeated Helixes are sexy. But there's only one of these in the deck at the moment. And it and Fire//Ice don't seem like automatically enough to not explore Black, Green, or Just straight UW.

GGoober
07-21-2009, 08:15 PM
Red is good with REB in the side mostly. I've been trying out UWr Landstill as a thought experiment but it hasn't worked out better than UWb mostly because red doesn't improve the matchup that the deck is bad in, but red improves the matchup that the deck is good in, so I see it as a win-more change so didn't go with it.

Moss did post a wonderful contender to an Ultimate Walker list which plays green with Loam and Garruk. I think he posted it in the wrong thread lol. Life from the Loam justifies the use of Forbid even more with the green splash. Garruk is another mighty strong walker that, like Elspeth, protects himself.

TheCramp
07-21-2009, 10:25 PM
I have to say, having sat facing down Ajani and watching helplessly getting tapped tapped tapped while my opponent sits with a growing hand of counter magic is frustrating in the extreme. I could have dealt with a dead goyf, or a stolen goyf many times. It does end in the control player winning outright too. "Neuter your goyf, oh and win turn seven."

Misplayer
07-22-2009, 08:37 AM
In addition to "Why not Brainstorm," why red as the third color?

Don't get me wrong. I love Ajani Vengeant here. Locking down forces them to overextend. Repeated Helixes are sexy. But there's only one of these in the deck at the moment. And it and Fire//Ice don't seem like automatically enough to not explore Black, Green, or Just straight UW.

To build on this, in how many situations is Ajani Vengeant superior to Elspeth?

ScatmanX
07-22-2009, 10:47 AM
To build on this, in how many situations is Ajani Vengeant superior to Elspeth?

I guess that few. Otherwise he woul´d not be running 2 Eslpeths and only 1 Ajani.

johanessen
07-22-2009, 12:04 PM
What do you think about using Veteran Explorer as 1cc choice in this deck? It will help to get fast planeswalkers on board.

bowvamp
07-22-2009, 12:29 PM
Speeding up the opponent that much, especially on their turn would not be the best idea. Getting planeswalkers on the board IS good, but is it good enough to let the opponent get two lands to use during their second mainphase?

Mystical_Jackass
07-22-2009, 03:04 PM
If someone gets turn1-3 Blood Moon off, is this deck F'd?

Citrus-God
07-22-2009, 03:10 PM
If someone gets turn1-3 Blood Moon off, is this deck F'd?

Who plays Blood Moon?

Mystical_Jackass
07-22-2009, 03:14 PM
Dragon Stompy abuses it well, most other decks with red are gonna use it. Like choke & back to basics, its a pretty popular SB.

Tacosnape
07-22-2009, 03:20 PM
I'd be tempted to run Black in this. I like the idea of Liliana Vess for the Jace/Liliana triple synergy (Both draw, they discard; Vampiric/Draw; Mill their deck/reanmiate all their guys;) And I like the idea of having Diabolic Edict here, as the less threats your opponents have on the board the better Planeswalkers can do their thing. Black also nets you new wish targets.

Green would add Garruk, who's less awesome without Standstill, as well as Grip in the wishboard, but probably nothing else really worth looking into.


Who plays Blood Moon?

Dragon Stompy, which will always re-emerge as a threat as long as people keep going "Who plays Blood Moon?"

beastman
07-22-2009, 03:31 PM
I like Tacosnape bringing up black. Lilliana would be amazing in the control mirror.

Mystical_Jackass
07-22-2009, 03:34 PM
You'd need help from ritual or Garruk to get her into play. Her mana cost is the only thing that holds her back. You'd have to completely retune your mana curve to pull that off, and I don't think it'd be fast enough to be effective. This is just my opinion, maybe I'm overlooking something ^.^ ...tangle wire?? (uh oh, here we go again :P)

mossivo1986
07-22-2009, 03:46 PM
I'd be tempted to run Black in this. I like the idea of Liliana Vess for the Jace/Liliana triple synergy (Both draw, they discard; Vampiric/Draw; Mill their deck/reanmiate all their guys;) And I like the idea of having Diabolic Edict here, as the less threats your opponents have on the board the better Planeswalkers can do their thing. Black also nets you new wish targets.

Green would add Garruk, who's less awesome without Standstill, as well as Grip in the wishboard, but probably nothing else really worth looking into.



Dragon Stompy, which will always re-emerge as a threat as long as people keep going "Who plays Blood Moon?"

Taco you have the right Idea.

Heres a list ive been messing around with in my head:


UWg U.W.: A landstill port/ with cooler interactions

3 flooded
3 windswept
3 tundra
2 tropical island
1 savannah
3 plains
2 island
1 forest
3 mishra
1 tolaria
1 ruins
1 wasteland
1 nantuko monestary

4 force
4 snare
1 forbid

4 stp
3 ee
2 wrath
1 humility
1 disk

3 visions
3 top
3 brainstorm
1 jace

2 elspeth
1 eternal dragon

2 c wish
1 life from the loam
1 nev disk

board:

1 intuition
1 seed spark
1 e tutor
1 pulse
1 honor of the fallen
3 path
2 moat
3 negate
2 relic

Edit +1 E dragon +1 Nantuko monestary -1 forbid -1 garruck

MTG-Fan
07-22-2009, 03:51 PM
Who plays Blood Moon?

Imperial Painter!

Citrus-God
07-23-2009, 02:20 AM
Dragon Stompy, which will always re-emerge as a threat as long as people keep going "Who plays Blood Moon?"

Yes, but running into Dragon Stompy at a tournament is like running into Combo if you're playing Zoo; you're going to have to accept that loss if you crash into it, because the chances of crashing into those decks in a swiss round is pretty slim.

Rinello
07-24-2009, 08:42 AM
Hi, I personally would try this:


2 Elspeth
2 Ajani Vengeant
3 Jace

4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Pyroclasm
4 Fire / Ice
2 Humility
2 Wrath of God

4 Volcanic Island
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Hallowed Fountain

I think removal effect like WoG and Pyroclasm can buy us some time to drop a walker. This deck has few finishing moves but you can just drop a Humility and start doin 2x1 with Fire and wait for your Elspeth or Ajani.
I feel like Brainstorm is needed so this deck can consistently drop a land for 4 turns.
About the black version of this deck I think it deserves some testing, since that version has more sinergy between plainswalkers (and you can play more efficient fetches) different kind of SB (is plague and extirpate > than REB? ) but it loses some sinergy with the deck itself (Fire or Pyro with Humility is great) .
We should investigate a list with more sinergy and more consistency.
Can we add some Stifles for waste protection and Tempo gain?
Should we add some finishers like Genju of the Fields?
In my list should I add a Pyroclasm? Replacin what?
Anyway this deck looks new and intresting, I like this fresh design :)







SB :

right now is 4 Beb, 4 Reb, 2 Wing Shard , 3 Spree / Devastating Blow / Wipe Away / Rushing River ..

Koby
07-24-2009, 11:50 AM
Would Firespout be a better fit instead of Pyroclasm here? It's a bit more expensive but allows you to deal with Nimble Mongoose, Kird Ape/Wild Nacatl, and the rare Tarmogoyf. Clearly it's less effective with Humility out, but you won't always have Humility out before you Pyro, and WoG is more expensive than both.

Actually, Slice & Dice might be an awesome addition to combo with Humility. On second thought, that's just as worse and still requires Humility. :(

@Rinello: Your deck is really geared to beating aggro. What is your plan against mid-range and combo?

GGoober
07-24-2009, 11:59 AM
Moss list is perhaps the more fine-tuned list. There's really not too much justification to run Vengeant in an environment that is so fast. This is not T2 where you can afford the time. Vengeant is game winning against certain matchups, but in todays meta of growing Zoo/Merfolks, tapping one dude isn't going to help much.

Moss's list is nice in a sense that I think LftL >>> Crucible in terms of synergy with the deck. It grabs your extra cards for Forbid, and sets up wastelock, hits landdrops everyturn. Garruk is still a weak slot IMO. Garruk's staying and winning power is perhaps 40% when standing next to Elspeth. I personally like Liliana in Landstill, but I've never really played with a black heavy splash and 5cc is just terrible (win-more)

Misplayer
07-24-2009, 12:12 PM
Moss list is perhaps the more fine-tuned list. There's really not too much justification to run Vengeant in an environment that is so fast. This is not T2 where you can afford the time. Vengeant is game winning against certain matchups, but in todays meta of growing Zoo/Merfolks, tapping one dude isn't going to help much.

Moss's list is nice in a sense that I think LftL >>> Crucible in terms of synergy with the deck. It grabs your extra cards for Forbid, and sets up wastelock, hits landdrops everyturn. Garruk is still a weak slot IMO. Garruk's staying and winning power is perhaps 40% when standing next to Elspeth. I personally like Liliana in Landstill, but I've never really played with a black heavy splash and 5cc is just terrible (win-more)

Mossivo's list (with the edits) is now Landstill with AV instead of Standstill and random Forbid/LftL tech.

A lot of the lists I'm seeing here seem to have Plansewalkers-for-the-sake-of-Planeswalkers. Personally, I'd play 3x Elspeth before playing 2/1 Elspeth/Vengeant or Elspeth/Garruck.

Koby
07-24-2009, 01:08 PM
I would still only run 2 Elspeth. Drawing multiples is bad when she's working. Drawing multiples when she's can't survive more than a turn is just the same - she makes a token and fogs the turn. This doesn't help relieve the battlefield of attackers like Wrath of God would. 3rd WoG over 3rd Elspeth.

Misplayer
07-24-2009, 01:20 PM
You missed the point, I'd take a 3rd Elspeth over Vengeant or Garruk, not over Wrath. I was talking about Planeswalkers specifically.

Koby
07-24-2009, 01:40 PM
In that case, I'd rather run a different Planeswalker rather than the 3rd Elspeth. I like the aggro approach with Ajani Goldmane who incidently also makes your deck less dependent on Cunning Wish -> Pulse of the Fields vs aggro. He also straight up defeats burn.

Rinello
07-24-2009, 02:35 PM
Would Firespout be a better fit instead of Pyroclasm here? It's a bit more expensive but allows you to deal with Nimble Mongoose, Kird Ape/Wild Nacatl, and the rare Tarmogoyf. Clearly it's less effective with Humility out, but you won't always have Humility out before you Pyro, and WoG is more expensive than both.

Actually, Slice & Dice might be an awesome addition to combo with Humility. On second thought, that's just as worse and still requires Humility. :(

@Rinello: Your deck is really geared to beating aggro. What is your plan against mid-range and combo?

you're right, I was ponderin Firespout but I considered the mana cost relevant.
against mid range I should have an army of indestructibles soldiers or have already won via Ajani. Against combo I guess Spell Snare and Fire / Ice should stall the game for a while.
Anyway my meta, and generally speaking Italian meta, is full of aggro deck... event Landstill packs 4 Tarmo and 2 Tombstalkers.. :)

Holo_rip
07-25-2009, 03:50 PM
this is not landstill but ITF / togless

johanessen
07-25-2009, 04:32 PM
Some Landstills packed 4 tarmogoyf before elspeth became popular. And there are some players that still use tombstalker as a finisher.

Enigma
07-26-2009, 11:08 AM
Firstly: Thanks to everyone for their replies! It's very appreciated.

I know this deck has some choices kinda unusual, and I beg you to try these before complaining. There's some choices that you need to watch in game to see their real power: Vision, Forbid, Vengeant, Fire/Ice.

There is also somes that I perfectly understand why you guys question so much:

No brainstorm,
Only 22 lands.

This is for me a thing we all need to discuss to make this deck better. I'm currently trying a version with 4 brainstorms. After a couple of games, I must admit it served me once against Landstill (where BS gave me Elspeth to finish him with my 5/5 flying mishra's).

The reason why we run this number of Island is:Ancestral Vision. By the fact our draw engines is no more conditional, we became more confident to keep a 1/2 lander grip. To understand this confidence, you really need to see Vision in action in this deck. How many games we won by doing 1st turn vision? It's simply that good. This is the best argument to keep AV as a 4-of.

PW:
I think the amount of PW is good. Ajani doesn't fill the same role as Elspeth and can be played with an Elspeth in play (which is not the case of a third Elspeth). Elspeth is a win-condition and needs to be drawn once in the game (90% of the time, not twice). Ajani is a removal for 4 or 5 turns and then become an ultimate game breaker.

Since Yan has been playing this deck, he had top8 everything he gone to. In our local 30-40 players tournaments, this deck performs really well (and Montreal's legacy scene is not bad at all). I'm confident this decks can become a Deck to watch and I couldn't see it as non-established deck. It's a question of time and a bit of fine-tuning to become a really good deck in the metagame.

Thanks again for your replies, and continue to give your ideas about the deck!

P-M

Shawon
07-27-2009, 06:32 AM
This is for me a thing we all need to discuss to make this deck better. I'm currently trying a version with 4 brainstorms. After a couple of games, I must admit it served me once against Landstill (where BS gave me Elspeth to finish him with my 5/5 flying mishra's).


Brainstorm also protects important cards in your hand (Planeswalkers) from discard effects.

georgjorge
07-27-2009, 06:57 AM
I don't think you can evaluate cards like Brainstorm or Visions by counting the number of games you won because of them. Those aren't bombs like the Planeswalker, who can win on their own, but support cards who can only give you other cards to work with. Their effect is to give you small increments of card advantage until it adds up enough for you to win, not to give you a win on the spot, so even if a Brainstorm doesn't draw you into an Elspeth at the time when it allows you to win, and only gives you some additional disruption in exchange for useless lands instead, it was far from useless. And an early Brainstorm that gives you lands or disruption when you need it doesn't win you the game (though it can keep you from losing it), but is still worth the slot.

Elf_Ascetic
07-27-2009, 08:04 AM
You guys are comparing Ancestral Visions against Brainstorm, AND against Standstill. Visions doens´t take up the 7 CA/CQ slots. I can see some reasons to run Visions instead of standstill, but no single reason to compare Visions with Brainstorm in this scenario.

@ the yay-sayers, please adress some points that have been made with more words than "test it". Or "he is getting results". Anyone who can play a decent control deck can make T8... Anyway, points:

> The lack of brainstorm.
> Forbids win-more soft lock over Counterspell
> The reasons why Ajani is better then something else
> The reasons to include A. Visions in a so claimed "counterbalanceproof" deck.
> Has Fact or Fiction been considered?
> F/I in a deck that is supposed to win the Zoo matches? Why no other Spot removal like Edict or PtE?
> Losses versus Goblins? (not so strange, Jace and Visions are übercrap in that matchup and only 2 WoG aren't gonna make it..)

I am very sceptical on this deck, I find it hard to believe that there is a good blue control deck without brainstorm.

Rinello
07-27-2009, 10:46 AM
> The lack of brainstorm.

I play it, one of the best blue cards you can find in legacy. Auto 4x if you ask,
not only gives quality, but it's cheap and hides bombs from discard effects. Also great with Fetches.

> Forbids win-more soft lock over Counterspell

I vote for Counterspell

> The reasons why Ajani is better then something else

Because sometimes you need Elspeth AND something else to controll the battlefield.
Sometimes keeping that Tarmo tapped is the right answer. 3x Elspeth is goin to be a dead draw.

> The reasons to include A. Visions in a so claimed "counterbalanceproof" deck.

Vision is just an underplayed card and it deserves some testing in a deck that can use it well. Also with Merfolk and other blue tribal decks becoming more popular, we espect decks that play Vial AND Standstill so we can't use 'Still because everyone will play around it. But we must draw so.. AV.

> Has Fact or Fiction been considered?

Mana cost is friggin high IMHO .. we have already too many drop 4

> F/I in a deck that is supposed to win the Zoo matches? Why no other Spot removal like Edict or PtE?

I answer to this with my list. Pyroclasm, WoG and Humility can help us drop Elspeth and/or ajani and win. Fire can make 2x1 or stall a tarmo for a turn.

> Losses versus Goblins? (not so strange, Jace and Visions are übercrap in that matchup and only 2 WoG aren't gonna make it..)

This is why red could be better than black.
More pyroclasm/Firespout/Earthquake effect and we are good to deal with them.
Also, BEB.


my 2 cent

FoolofaTook
07-27-2009, 11:38 AM
Ajani shuts down more than just Tarmogoyf and big beaters in general. He also keeps Academy Ruins, Dust Bowl and Volrath's Stronghold tapped. He contributes to shutting down one of your opponents colors in a multi-color deck. He can keep a Grindstone or Goblin Charbelcher tapped if you managed to stifle or otherwise duck its effect the first time it was used. There are a lot of applications that his free ability has in the meta we have today.

For a control deck a free suppressing effect every turn is fairly strong. Then you throw in the game-overness of destroying all of the opponent's lands and he's a really strong card.

Koby
07-27-2009, 12:04 PM
Ajani is also important as is still removal with lifegain. In the matchups where his second ability is useful - it makes all the difference.

I've been tooling around with 'Walker decks and I have to agree with the assertions made about Ancestral Visions. Standstill has a nice synergy with 'Walkers, but both sets of cards require you to have a good board position before deploying. Strictly speaking, a good board position is an empy board position, and this is where the control deck wants to be.

Ancestral Visions gives a huge boost after turn 4 which is when the extra cards are really important. I would try 4 AV 4 Brainstorm to begin more in depth testing of its merits.

Raptor
07-27-2009, 12:05 PM
You guys are comparing Ancestral Visions against Brainstorm, AND against Standstill. Visions doens´t take up the 7 CA/CQ slots. I can see some reasons to run Visions instead of standstill, but no single reason to compare Visions with Brainstorm in this scenario.

@ the yay-sayers, please adress some points that have been made with more words than "test it". Or "he is getting results". Anyone who can play a decent control deck can make T8... Anyway, points:

> The lack of brainstorm.
> Forbids win-more soft lock over Counterspell
> The reasons why Ajani is better then something else
> The reasons to include A. Visions in a so claimed "counterbalanceproof" deck.
> Has Fact or Fiction been considered?
> F/I in a deck that is supposed to win the Zoo matches? Why no other Spot removal like Edict or PtE?
> Losses versus Goblins? (not so strange, Jace and Visions are übercrap in that matchup and only 2 WoG aren't gonna make it..)

I am very sceptical on this deck, I find it hard to believe that there is a good blue control deck without brainstorm.

There is something that you need to understand, this is a new deck,with lots of unusual stuff that is hard to really know what they are capable of until you see these cards in action.

>First, brainstorm is not fetchable with tolarian west. And AVis is a card that must be countered, so other control decks WILL want to answer the card, and if they answer it, it clear the way a bit for a planeswalker. Also, in some match up such as discard, when it lands first turn, it can help you recover from it.

>The point of forbid mainly that it doesn't have 2cc, so it makes the SpellSnare of your opponent useless. Also, when I've played agaisnt forbid, I've seen that it is one awsome cards when you opponents is going in top deck mode or so because it will protect your planeswalker, and they won't draw an answer to a planeswalker each turn. It will win some match that you will most likely have lost if you had Counterspell.

>It will help vs some match ups that, I think, might be hard, such as zoo. Tapping their goyf or lightning helix their Kird ape or Nacalt is really that good. Also, tapping some threats such as Tombstalker, Goyd, Dreadnought while your find another answer is really that good, and then, you can armageddon your opponent.

>What would Brainstorm give over AVis vs a counterbalance deck, except maybe that it cannot be counterbalanced Turn 1 ? It will get counterbalanced at almost any other point of the game, and I think that it is not worth it to cut AVis for brainstorm for only some match ups.

>I don't know, but it's kind of slow, and doesn't give you a turn 1 play...

>C.Wish -> Pulse of the field, EExplosive, Ajani, STP and wasteland can help

>I don't think that goblins is really played anymore to really fear it, in my opinion.

This is just what I think, my 0.02$

mossivo1986
07-27-2009, 12:41 PM
There is something that you need to understand, this is a new deck,with lots of unusual stuff that is hard to really know what they are capable of until you see these cards in action.

Obviously the deck was piloted by a good player who has had alot of success. This combined with alittle luck seems like a more reasonable explanation then (what the deck is capable of.)Not that i'm saying the model is trash,

but for all the resilience to spell snare that is talked about with this model one of the main components that seperates old reliable UWb Landstill and UWr ultimate walker (Besides color)

Is the very same problem you are attending to remove. Those spell snares your merfolk pilot was holding for opposing 2 drops doesn't just dissapear of the table when he/she can't use them initially. A spell snare in the early game does the exact same thing as it does in the late game minus some early tempo crushing. What i'm leading up to is that fire/ice is not a good answer for the problems this deck faces IE merfolk, fish, goblins (Yes it's still played, especially as larger scale events.)

Yes fire/ice does do tricks. Cartwheels even in some matchups, but if that dreadnaught,goyf, big threat little threat ect. ect. you planned to tape with ice gets snared your next line of defense is STP if you haven't already used one. Outside of that I do believe next in line is 2 ee and 1 veangent? This seems like your sacrificing your removal suit for additional plainswalkers (mind you that arn't really necessy or good for any sort of an aggro enviornment.)


First, brainstorm is not fetchable with tolarian west.

Yes but it is the best card draw for the cost in the format.


And AVis is a card that must be countered, so other control decks WILL want to answer the card.


So what your really saying is that you only want to beat the control decks in this format which explains forbid, 2 jace in the main, and the ajani veangent action. The reason these cards work is because of tempo control, without that element you are left with losing to both combo and aggro.


Also, in some match up such as discard, when it lands first turn, it can help you recover from it.

I think the problem here is that you don't have the removal suit in the early game to handle discard decks after they tear your hand away and outside of getting visions on 1 and possibly 2, the deck autoslides into this I must answer with my less efficient higher casting cost inevitable threat, which will get smoked by the more efficient easier to deal with threats that they bring to the table.

It is in this case that I truly believe standstill is just the better card, but I do love resolving visions at will.



>The point of forbid mainly that it doesn't have 2cc, so it makes the SpellSnare of your opponent useless. Also, when I've played agaisnt forbid, I've seen that it is one awsome cards when you opponents is going in top deck mode or so because it will protect your planeswalker, and they won't draw an answer to a planeswalker each turn. It will win some match that you will most likely have lost if you had Counterspell.

Your argument for forbid is very much utility win/more. Theres absolutely no reason to protect your plainswalker to this degree as it will only lead to peeps focusing on cards that remove plainswalkers easier and then all your left with is a shitty board position, 2 dead cards and a counterspell for three mana. Confuckingradulations (This isn't meant to be mean, its just the thing I say to myself when Im in a board position where i've lost control of the game state with CA over quality.)


>It will help vs some match ups that, I think, might be hard, such as zoo. Tapping their goyf or lightning helix their Kird ape or Nacalt is really that good.


Wouldn't more removal period solve this position. Why possibly answer the threat when you can just remove it instead. You have the option and we all know that zoo is a tempo aggro strategy that looses CA as you use your removal. Both of the cards that your offering fire/ice and Veangent do nothing but fog these matchups.

Shawon
07-27-2009, 01:20 PM
Does the fact that AV can be easily countered by Counterbalance have any merit? No one's really addressed that yet. Mind you, I think AV is a great card, I used it all the time in Mono Blue Control, however, I think its inclusion is contradictory in a deck meant to be comfortably unaffected by Counterbalance.

Koby
07-27-2009, 01:30 PM
Does the fact that AV can be easily countered by Counterbalance have any merit? No one's really addressed that yet. Mind you, I think AV is a great card, I used it all the time in Mono Blue Control, however, I think its inclusion is contradictory in a deck meant to be comfortably unaffected by Counterbalance.

Yes, it's arguably easier to counter than Standstill. However, the CB matchup comes down to your 'Walkers being awesomesauce rather than getting AV to resolve.

Shawon
07-27-2009, 09:35 PM
So... you're saying that if CB counters AV, you just hope you resolve a Planeswalker and win from there? Yeah, that makes sense, card advantage is a little overrated these days.

MTG-Fan
07-28-2009, 02:30 AM
So... you're saying that if CB counters AV, you just hope you resolve a Planeswalker and win from there? Yeah, that makes sense, card advantage is a little overrated these days.

lol.

in their defense, they do also run Jace, which is, ideally, a 3 mana for 3 cards draw spell.

Elf_Ascetic
07-28-2009, 07:33 AM
Does the fact that AV can be easily countered by Counterbalance have any merit? No one's really addressed that yet. Mind you, I think AV is a great card, I used it all the time in Mono Blue Control, however, I think its inclusion is contradictory in a deck meant to be comfortably unaffected by Counterbalance.

Thereby, MUC is/was a deck that runs/ran Force spike, Spell Snare, Counterspell and Force of Will to protect it. No Counterbalance is gonna resolve against that. Against this deck, only FoW and Spell Snare form your hope in dark times.

Anyway, I will adopt the idea of this deck, build a list that I actually like, and run it through some gauntlets. I'll get back to this.

klaus
07-29-2009, 08:30 AM
I've done some testing with a modified build that is currently being quite promising.

MD changes:
-3 Daze
-4 F/I
-2 Forbid
-2 Cunning Wish
-1 land
-----------------
+1 Snare
+1 Counterspell
+3 Brainstorm
+3 Lightning Helix (filling out the F/I slot way better imo.)
+2 Path to Exile
+1 Top
+1 Firespout (main)
-----------------

Some words on my changes:
Even though I changed 11 cards, the modified version follows the same approach. It merely counters a little less and destroys a little more, that's all.

Yes, I found Wish too clunky. If I played it, I'd have one more reason not to run Dazes ;)
---
Helix is that good, the only reason I never ran them ever, was that I never played a deck boasting Plains AND Mountains ;).
To me the approach of this A. Visions.dec is quite simple: play Visions and keep your life total up until it resolves. Helix is MUCH better at that, while it also gets rid of lots of buggers that F/I doesn't (AND is a 2 in 1 - pretty much making Wish-->Pulse obsolete).
PtE and Snare follow that same logic: if we manage to control the early game, odds are we own that thing.
---
Having played with Top in Speedstill, it seems like the perfect fit here. After turn 4 it is often the best topdeck and never random. I think the count could be upped to 2.
---
For reference here's my current SB:

2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Meddling Mage
2 Dismantling Blow
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ajani Goldmane
2 Firespout
---
Cheers.

PS: I never would have thought A. Vengeant could be THAT good. It seems like every 2nd game I drop him I'm able to use his hilarious ultimate :cool:
----------------------

Edit: Here's the MD.

4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Helix
1 Firespout

4 Ancestral Vision
3 Brainstorm
1 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Engineered Explosives

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Ajani Vengeant
2 Jace Beleren
1 Decree of Justice
---------------------------
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Plains
2 Island
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island

1 Academy Ruins
2 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
---
Edit #2: I think I'll swap 1 MD Crucible and that 2nd SB Firespout, making the Aggro MU quite favorable, and thus the remaining SB Firespout overkill. Any suggestions for that 15th SB slot?

Romanus
07-29-2009, 09:20 AM
Klaus,

Do you notice having trouble finding blue cards to pitch to force? How do you fare vs merfolk with that list? (I ask because stifle on AV is meh) I like that list a lot.

klaus
07-29-2009, 10:40 AM
Romanus.

17 U cards is the bare minimum incl. FOW. The MD has 18 - obviously it could have a higher U count. Against combo it can be upped to 23 though (+3 MM +2 BEB). The one flex slot is the 2nd Crucible which can easily be replaced with the 4th BS.

The Merfolk MU might not be favorable, but (since you're active over at the LS thread, too) Ultimate Walker (actually that name should always be capitalized to emphasize its Hulkishness), so ULTIMATE WALKER might fare better against Merfolk than the common LS lists.
This is due to REB, more removal, and the fact that Standstill is not a dead card. That being said, I'd most likely board out 1-2 Visions against most aggro.decs.
-
Sidenote..
@ Stifling Visions: More and more Nervfolk lists drop Stifle :wink:

Nessaja
07-29-2009, 12:35 PM
I just played against the deck on MWS, I have to say that Helix is a very strong addition to the arsenal. I'm not so sure if boarding out Visions is that good of an idea though, you will need the card advantage against aggro in order to win.

Enigma
07-29-2009, 04:13 PM
I'm not sure about removing a land, but I have to say I like Firespout and Helix a lot. I'll test this as soon as I have time to.

Thanks Klaus for this serious option.

P-M

Romanus
07-29-2009, 04:55 PM
Thanks Klaus. I really dig your build, and I think it plugs holes that the first list had. I tested Yan's first list and was stomped by fast aggro so I went limping back to landstill. Your list has strong sweepers and extra spot removal with helix. I will start testing it tonight :cool:

godryk
07-29-2009, 05:14 PM
I do love Klaus' approach: I think this deck has a well-defined set of powerfull lategame bombs that ensure certain lategame domain such as AV, Planeswalkers, EE+Ruins and Crucible of Worlds.

The rest of the deck should focus on not only surviving but also keeping a decent game-state against fast aggro, during the first few turns, which will be critical. IMHO, things like Forbid, Tolaria or Cunning Wish were kind of win-more cards.

klaus
07-29-2009, 06:00 PM
I'm not sure about removing a land, but I have to say I like Firespout and Helix a lot. I'll test this as soon as I have time to.

Thanks Klaus for this serious option.

P-M

You might be correct about that land.
I have the feeling it should be 23 considering 1 Crucible gets moved to the board.
Fixed.

Koby
07-29-2009, 06:43 PM
I think the Helix build definitly plugs hole that were prior leaky, such as a heavy dependence on 4cc bombs: Wrath, Planeswalkers, Moat/Humility. Firespout definitly helps out a ton against all the situations where Wrath of God would be necessary, allowing StoP to take care of the larger threats of Goyf and Tombstalker. It also carries an easier mana requirement (3 mana, 1 colored) vs WoG (4 mana, 2 colored). This is a huge difference that should be considered.

Sam
07-29-2009, 07:50 PM
I like the tweak that some of you are giving to this deck. I saw Yan played it oftenly and I always argue with him about the lack of BS in his list... Basically, he said that BS doesn't create card advantage and in his orginal design he went for card density over card selection... I still think it's the wrong path to follow, but he's making results with his list.

Llightning helix seems good, but can't replace hiself as F/I does, it's not blue and can't do some nice 2 for 1 tricks... But I admit it will help alot against fast aggro.

In Klaus' list I would add a single tropical island as the 23rd mana source. It gives a possible wrath for the fliers with Firesprout and allows EE at 4.

Also, why is the plainwalker creew always featuring 2 Elspeth (some people argue for 3!)? I know it can be an offending suggestion, but I would try to drop to 1. I know Elspeth is a game breaker, it wins game by herself and it's your main kill condition... I saw her in action and love it. But it's an awfull draw in the early game and she needs a good board position to be effective.

The way I see the game plan of this deck is surviving to the early game (either by killing or countering treaths) than you stabilize and begin to create more CA than you oponent and then you can think about winning...

In that scenario a second Ajani seem better suited to me. it fit perfectly in the mid-game plan, will be an expensive Helix if the board is not favorable and can also wins game by himself... Anyway, you'll draw Elspeth later or go for the factory beatdown... I'm not saying it's the right configuration but I think it worths a test session.

Finally, I want to advocate for Ancestral Vision. I was also skeptical when I saw Yan playing it for the first time, but I most admit that it's one of the most underated draw engine in the format. The only playable thing that can generate as much CA is Fact or Fiction. FoF is a clumsy 4cc spell. You need to tap mana to play it:tongue: Vision is more vulnerable but easier to protect and give you a smoother curve... There's no real choice here imo.

nodahero
07-29-2009, 10:30 PM
So i recently picked up this deck and have been testing it fairly aggressively. My main two questions (due primarily to lack of testing agaisnt compitent pilots for these decks) is what do we do against Counter-top and the Folk? and less importantly what about agaisnt decks like ANT? I have played storm combo for years and know from personal expiernce that MMAGE dosn't cut it against storm? Is this one of those luck sac into a win or die matches?

If I were to opt into the 23rd land (trop) that swaping dismantling blow for K-Grip is a good swap? or is the kicker important enough to keep it in for the CA?

Is it possible that swapping the one of top and counterspell for something more consistent such as to Fire/Ice would be beneficial or possibly a fourth brainstorm and the 2ns crucible? I cut the second crucible for the second firespout.

Lastly, What is the correct play with Jace? If the coast is clear on the third turn do i run her out with no force in hand? or do i sit and wait till i can make sure she resolves with protection? Also should we immediately do the +2 ability to circumvent a bolt or do we just wana start doing the -1 off the bat?

Thanks for all of your help guys I really enjoy this deck and look foreword to your thoughts.

Romanus
07-29-2009, 11:28 PM
Mmmmm, Klaus you are brilliant. Tested heavily against Zoo tonight. It's a semi favorable match with landstill, but Ultimate Walker v2.klaus could not be touched. AV blew up lands, Helix melted everything and I would have only traded Spout for wrath one time vs a 4/5 Goyf. Ended all my games (9 of them, more to follow) at 15+ life.

Next on my testing list is vs Goblins and mono red burn. Not major decks in the format, but have given me problems in the past.

Thanks again Klaus.

Koby
07-29-2009, 11:43 PM
Burn is easily mitigated with Goldmane. That 'walker is a HOUSE against the monored lists. :)

klaus
07-30-2009, 05:56 AM
If I were to opt into the 23rd land (trop) that swaping dismantling blow for K-Grip is a good swap? or is the kicker important enough to keep it in for the CA?

Of course Grip came to mind when Tropical was mentioned. However, to really be able to maintain 3 SB Grips we'd need to at least run 2 green sources which would unnessecarily weaken the manabase. I'm not positive yet, whether Blow is the right call - it's got the right CMC though and does it's CA thing at times.



Is it possible that swapping the one of top and counterspell for something more consistent such as to Fire/Ice would be beneficial or possibly a fourth brainstorm and the 2ns crucible? I cut the second crucible for the second firespout.

There are few cards out there that are more consistent and reliable than Counterspell and I daresay there is not a single spell that reads "consistency" more than Top.



Lastly, What is the correct play with Jace? If the coast is clear on the third turn do i run her out with no force in hand? or do i sit and wait till i can make sure she resolves with protection? Also should we immediately do the +2 ability to circumvent a bolt or do we just wana start doing the -1 off the bat?

There are pretty straight forward rules of thumb for playing Jace correctly:
You go straight 3-2-1-0 against:
- Combo
- Burn
- Sligh (unless the board is clear and your life total is good and he doesn't hold more than 3 cards, I'd say then could go: 3-2-1-3)
---------------
You go 3-2-1-3 (+repeat) against:
- most of other archetypes, given the gamestate allows for the cycle
---------------
You go 3->5... when:
- you're staring down a 1/1 or 2/2 or (or even 3/3 if you have the means to remove them the turn after [EE etc.])
- especially so if you're under pressure.
---------------
Obviously you'll cast him and go 3-2 if you're in trouble and he's your only feasible play.
Example: you're at 9 life, facing a 4/5 Goyf with merely land in play and no removal in hand. Either he'll draw an attack, thus cycling for 4 life or he'll draw you at least 2 cards and eventually find you that out.

There is some more strategic knowledge regarding Jace that is rather subtle and really gamestate-specific but from a certain degree onwards it's mostly playstyle and experience.

Enigma
07-30-2009, 07:42 AM
Never forget his last ability. Against Control, it's purely good. So I would add to Klaus' analysis:

3->5->7... against:
Any control deck.

Against CB:Spell snare prevent it but Engineered Explosives is the main weapon we have against it, and it's a pretty good one. In the orignal list, we also have Wish-> Dis blow

Against Folk: 8 spots removal is good (Like Canadian thresh). E.E. recursive is a house once again. Mishra's and Decree makes their standstill not as efficient. I've never seen Yan losing against this MU and I'm pretty sure it's favorable.

P-M

heroicraptor
07-30-2009, 11:47 PM
I just played against this with Death Baron's Panty Raid, and Helix was a great--and unexpected--combat trick.

MTG-Fan
07-31-2009, 12:16 AM
Is the matchup generally in favor of this deck, or in favor of the Death Baron deck?

heroicraptor
07-31-2009, 12:20 AM
Is the matchup generally in favor of this deck, or in favor of the Death Baron deck?

Well, I did win 2-0, but that trick almost won the first game for him, I just had a Graveborn Muse and was able to recover well. Second game, he popped Elspeth's ult, but I was still able to swarm around blockers. He didn't cast any sweepers, but commented about not seeing Firespouts.

Enigma
08-02-2009, 10:52 PM
I'm currently testing Klaus' version with these changes:

-1 Top
-2 Path to exile
-1 Polluted delta
-1 Crucible of worlds

+1 Tolaria West
+1 Tundra
+1 Tropical Island
+2 Counterspell

->Blue cards are back to 20.
->Now have 23 lands + 1 West
->Permission up to 11

I'm still not sure if it's better than the Original list (the one with 3 Jaces and 4 E.E), but it still needs to be tested out.

P-M

nodahero
08-05-2009, 04:40 PM
With GenCon starting in just over 7 days I have put alot of thought into my deck list for worlds. Usually I have my deck of choice for any format narrowed down to at least a play style such as aggro, combo, or control. However past experiences with Worlds has lead me to believe that there really is no ideal deck to play due to the large diversity of decks which have always shown up. For this years worlds I am fully capable of playing Merfolk, CounterSlivers, any Storm list, Ultimate walker, and Ichorid.

While I am fairly well versed in each of the above decks it appears that each one has a very large flaw and thus so far am leaning towards ultimate walker. If you guys would be so kind as to point out any thing that seems false or anything off that would be awesome. After my quick annalysis I will then explain why these thoughts lead me to ULTIMATE WALKER.

Merfolk-- Weak against Zoo and the probability of alot of mirror matches due to cost and efficiency are deterrents

CounterSlivers-- The deck basically died with the advent of the M10 rules plain and simple not to mention Slivers 8 lords cannot really compete against the 'Folks 12

Storm-- My main issue with this list is the instability of the mana base due to such a large collection of duals and Mines. While this is likely a very good deck assuming good mulligan skills I really don't wana deal with Chant wars from the mirror.

Ichorid-- My biggest issue with Ichorid is the inherent weaknesses associated with games 2 and 3. Grave hate is far to common place in almost any given deck that I really do not want to run it.

From my perspective ULTIMATE WALKER has a few big bonuses for playing it. The first bonus is the lack of wide knowledge. With such a small following it seems likely I will pull off alot of easy games due to my opponent having no idea what I am playing and how to play against it. Second the deck is extremely well rounded and between main and side has an extensive collection of tools to fight almost any deck in format. Third with my personal tweaks to the manabase and card pool any weaknesses to the consistency of the deck has been further reduced from Klaus' list.

For your viewing pleasure I submit to you my personal take on ULTIMATE WALKER

LANDS 22
2 Island
3 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins

Consistency and Card advantage 11
4 Ancestreal Visions
3 Brainstorms
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Jace Beleren

Removal Package 14
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Helix
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Firespout

Counters 9
4 Force of Will
4 Spellsnare
1 Counterspell

Win-Cons 4
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Decree of Justice

The major differences between Klaus' list and mine are as follows:
-2 Wastelands
-1 Crucible of Worlds
+1 Plains
+1 Mishra's Factory
+1 Sensei's Divining Top

I choose to make these changes to reduce the overall weakness to inconsistency I experienced with the list. With the removal of Wastelands the value of Crucible also dropped off significantly. I opted for the 4th Factory to increase of threat density and our defense capabilities. The top was the next inclusion due the slow controlling nature of our list and from playing control decks for almost 8 years I have seen the advantages of consistency in drawing the preferred card as opposed to a random card particularity with excess mana at the opponents EOT phase. The extra plains was played into the deck primarily to keep the land count at 22 while also allowing for a slightly better game against Moon Men. The Plains could also have been an island but I felt access to the additional plains was more beneficial although the correct call may be the fourth Tundra.

I'm thinking that my sideboard will be:
1 Firespout
1 Lightning Helix
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Jace Belern
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Wastelands
3 Relic of Progenitus

My sideboard is basically set up to allow me switch into either a more controlling deck by bringing in the walkers or the crucible Waste package or to become more attrition prone by bringing in point removal.

The last few things to think about is swapping the Counterspell for a Mana Leak and possibly adjusting the Sideboard because the 2 of Wasteland seems like a poor idea but I couldn't think of a better option... Perhaps two Mutavaults to go more aggro when under a standstill?

As always... Thoughts and comments are appreciated.

NH

Enigma
08-05-2009, 10:28 PM
I think you are missing the Spell snares in this list, am I wrong?

This leads me to the fact that you would have a pain in the ass facing Combo without any SB dedicated to it. I think the 4x MM are really necessary, as even with those, the Combo MU is pretty hard. I even thought we should add Chant to make the MU easier.

P-M

nodahero
08-06-2009, 12:56 AM
After some extensive testing today (to double check my earlier conclusions) I still feel that the Wastelands are not needed and that the 4 Factory is very useful. I also still know we want another colored source in the 2nd waste slot although wether it should be a plains is still in the air (so far it seems right). I am however beginning to think that I may have been to harsh on the consistency problem previously. Crucible was fairly impressive today in testing. I will likely put it back in over the 2nd top although honestly 2 crucible seems really tempting due to all the LD I have seen lately.
Thoughts?

P.S. I am not sure it makes sense to devote board slots to combo. Primarily because against good combo players the only way we can win with such a slow deck is to get lucky. The combo player needs to either have horrid luck at hitting their DDays or have horrid flips with AdNos. Secondly because we have zero hope of honestly beating them game one and our chances do not go up drastically post board without devoting our side to beating combo. Not to mention I forsee signifcantly more aggro and control decks than anything combo based besides dredge (which is already any easy match).

P.P.S. What if anything should I cut from my list for a 4th Explosives assuming I swap a Top for Crucible again.

P.P.P.S I just went 2-0 against storm combo... I think it had ALOT ALOT ALOT to do with my familiarity of Storm and the varying methods of playing storm while also playing against one of the more TES variants (AKA all in esq lists). Also as a general note when playing against storm with this ALWAYS bring in ur Pyro/Red Blasts for combos tutors and cantrips... Those are key to beating storm.

klaus
08-06-2009, 05:59 AM
@ nodahero:

Making room for the 4th EE seems feasible. I think the fact that you don't run any Disenchant effects in the board actually makes it a necessity.

4 REB seem overkill to me. I'm aware of the pros but they will hardly ever be helplful in the face of a resolved CB and the 'U control MU' already is rather favorable due to our PWs.

Those 4 SB slots: 2 Crucible 2 Waste would really only prove their worth in a meta full of LS, which most likely won't be the case.
I still like my singleton Crucible in the main though. Oftentimes it completed the A. Ruins-EE lock by making it close to unbreakable. Plus, recurring factories are nice in game 1 too, making our mana base Wasteland prove somewhat relaxes me and yes, I have actually won a couple of games by wastelocking my opponent, it also makes our Decree a real threat.

nodahero
08-06-2009, 12:21 PM
I went ahead and adjusted my sideboard to be slightly more mainstream. What are everyone's thoughts.

SB: 1 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
SB: 1 [RAV] Lightning Helix
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 [M10] Jace Beleren
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [ARB] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

I created this board with the impression that aggro is already a near bye due to our infinite creature kill in the main.
GENERAL SIDEBOARD STRATEGY
Against aggro I would board in the Helix and Spout and POSSIBLY the 2nd Vengeant depending on the aggro deck such as sligh.
Against control I would bring in the Vengeant, Jace, Crucible, and possibly the Dismantling blow against certain decks.
Against combo I would board in the Blasts and Mage (Countering their cantrips is sick).
Relic comes in for the obvious matchup which is already fairly good but it never hurts to pad it a little.

Sam
08-07-2009, 01:53 PM
@ nodahero :

I think you really need the lonely Tropical in it. It doesn't significaly weaken your mana base and it improves Firesprout and EE...


Against control I would bring in the Vengeant, Jace, Crucible, and possibly the Dismantling blow against certain decks.

You must bring the blast in too... The Mages are goods against some control variant (I would bring them in 100% of the time against UWb Landstill).

Crucible Waste is a strong plan versus Landstill. Moreover crucible alone stabilize your manabase. I think you should keep one in the main.

Good luck at Gencon

legacyplayer0
08-07-2009, 10:51 PM
I played this list to a 14th place finish at the GP Boston legacy side event on Sunday.

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Wrath of God
2 Ajani Vengeant
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Decree of Justice
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Brainstorm
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinket Mage
4 Ancestral Vision
2 Compulsive Research

2 Tolaria West
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Plateau
1 Island
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Leonin Den

Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
1 REB
2 Hydroblast
1 BEB
2 Firespout
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pulse of the Fields
1 Ethersworn Canonist

My list has the same game plan as other lists, but gets there by different means. Here's some explanation for the unique card choices.

For card advantage I have replaced Jace with Compulsive Research. Compulsive Research doesn't see a lot of constructed play, because it's a sorcery, but in this deck that isn't a significant drawback. It also has great synergy with Crucible. At three mana I prefer to get my cards right away rather than wait for them to arrive over several turns.

Trinket Mage replaces Cunning Wish as the utility card. Being able to block for Planeswalkers and searching for a fourth land are two of Trinket Mages advantages. The targets are all cards that this kind of deck would want anyway, so the random bad draws that often plague decks with tool boxes are not a issue here. The one Chalice of the Void can be crippling against many decks, and it fits very well with the anti-Spell Snare theme.

nodahero
08-08-2009, 01:27 AM
I definitely can see the overall strategy being the same interms of how to win but our methods to reach the end are vastly different. For example... Mage can never counteract a flurry of burn spells aimed you short of tutoring up a chalice. Weak example but I am half asleep... Not to mention your deck takes a much more tap out approach to control witch dosnt seem safe in the current metagame.

legacyplayer0
08-08-2009, 09:46 AM
The reason I feel so safe tapping out is because there aren't any counters that cost more than one mana that I want to play in this deck. If there isn't an incentive to leave mana up, then why not take advantage of powerful sorcery-speed spells?

nodahero
08-08-2009, 12:25 PM
You want to leave mana up for various reasons.
Example 1) cycling your Decree
Example 2) Activating your Explosives, Factorys, and Top
Example 3) Casting your StPs and Brainstorms at ideal times

Also while compulsive is a quicker boon than Jace-Compulsive cannot draw attacks away from your life and Jace can also provide more long term card advantage (something this deck accels at outside of MWS).

Another option to make your list slightly more flexible would be to swap out the Compulsives for Thirst for Knowledge and up the artifact count by 2 or so cards. One other addition could be Great Furnace. While the card advantage from TfK is not as likely to be as high as Compulsive I think there is something to be said for its ability to be cast "whenever".

legacyplayer0
08-08-2009, 01:23 PM
None of those things seem like especially good reasons to play instants. There aren't many more sorcery speed cards in this list than in the normal ones, because Jace is sorcery speed.

nodahero
08-09-2009, 12:50 AM
I realize this but jace also provides a much larger range of flexibility. For example... While testing this morning on MWS I was playing against 4 color balance and the game literally came done to the flexibility of jace. I actually won by decking my opponent with Jace... and I dont mean her "ultimate" either... Sad but true... By the time I drew her I was to low on cards to keep bumping her up for fear my opponent would draw into a goyf to finish me before I found a StP or Path... I was at 3 life.

legacyplayer0
08-09-2009, 04:54 PM
I can agree that Jace has advantages, particularly against other blue decks like the one in your example. But I think that Compulsive Research is better for consistently hitting the fourth land drop and finding removal ASAP. This deck has a good matchup against other blue decks already, so I consider Compulsive Research to be more useful in terms of shoring up the deck's vulnerabilities.

nodahero
08-10-2009, 03:36 AM
I actually hadn't noticed this before now... the jace vs compulsive argument with Jace being a bit of a win more against blue based lists... Although for the record... I do not think our deck is nearly as immune to Counterbalance as we were lead to believe. I still think the match is in out favor but no more than 60 40 at BEST...

The counter-top matchup is in someways alot worse than other decks due to all of our best removal in those matchups dieing to a cmc of 1 which in this matchup once it is underway isn't hard for them to hit. Personally I think the easiest way to beat them is ironically to simply board in REBs and Pyros and merely make them pay for trying to get set up first by having more solutions then they have.

Another note from testing today... Due to sheer boredem at our weekly legacy league I risked my flawless record taking on two player simultaneously (their decks were both tier 2 or 3 but in two on one... with them sharing 40 life; it seemed like a good test of my capabilities with this beast). Throughout our match I kept noting how Factorys seemed a little redundant except when I my Elspeths and Vengeants failed to appear and kept thinking about how Waste would have served me better particually against zoo since there manabase is so critter light as is. Does it seem logical to swap the 4 factorys in my lists for 4 wastes and find 1 more card to cut for a 4th vengeant?

As a random side note (due to a lack of Decrees) I tested out rings of brighthearth and found them to be extremely powerful although they may have been slightly win more as oppsoed to the decrees. The Rings would be nuts in the control mirror with the wastes to perpetuate the war of attrion with us knocking out two of their lands with 1 of ours and 2 mana. What is everyone elses oppions?

I guess overall it seems like our aggro matchup is extremely good and our control can actually use a slight tweak.

I think the major point of argument now is the value of Factorys in our deck. Typically against aggro the best our factorys will ever due is to trade with another critter or die to a burn spell before blocks. Against control they provide an uncounterable beater but cannot get past a goyf or nimble when trying to kill the opposition.
On the flipside using Waste against the aggro player reduces our (large) amount of ways in which to kill creatires to a slightly lower count (roughly 15 down to 11 in my list) to weaken there manabase by kicking out a spash color such as white and thus slowing the game down more to our pace. Against control we lose the ability to get in for free hits but gain the ability of crippling one color from the opposing deck.
Clearly in the control match Waste is alot better due to the its ability to cripple the already typically fragile manabase of control decks. In the aggressive matchs (something I have significantly less testing in) the line becomes very blurred because I remember games where I drew 2 factorys and obliterated my opponent and games in which I drew a factory and it died... then I would draw a factory and it would die... and eventually lost because I "missed" so many land drops.

K_Rot_T
08-10-2009, 09:18 AM
Little Question: Whats with Savor the Moment in this Deck? It gives you an additional Turn for you Walkers and it "removes" a counter from the Visions as well as letting you play an additional Land (specially if you have crucible out).

I like the Trinket Mage in there but as we play for time, Intuition (even a single one) might be worth trying, so you search for example for Crucible+Ruins+Top or Explosives.

legacyplayer0
08-10-2009, 04:33 PM
Savor the Moment is too unreliable to be played and is only really worth it in certain situations. The 50% chance of spending three mana on literally nothing is not a smart gamble, especially with so mana other good options in the 3 mana spot.

I agree with Nodahero that Wasteland is really good and Factory is often not so good. I like at least 1 Factory to tutor for with Tolaria West, so it shouldn't be cut completely. One upside of Wasteland that wasn't mentioned in Nodahero's post is that wasting someone when you have Ancestral counting down can be really devastating.

Black Mass
08-10-2009, 04:56 PM
well, you do draw an extra card from it and it should be played in situations whre you can gain from it the most. But it doesn't add anything real to the deck whereas the other card in that same manacost is a real lightning rod with the potential of true cardadvantage.

nodahero
08-10-2009, 11:46 PM
@Legacyplayer: Are you still running your list card for card or have you adjusted it since your posted it? I am really trying to make the manabase much more versatile and stable in conjunction with the spells and was curius what your list looks like.

I went ahead and tested the swap for Compulsive over Jace and noticed that while it does weaken our control matchup it does strengthen our aggressive matches more. The question is I suppose how much we should strengthen one match and weaken the other...

Also... It may be my lack of landstill experience but... Decree dosn't really seem that impressive no matter how you use it. Is their an ideal scenario for it? Or is it there as a carry over from the role it fulfilled in Landstill? Personally it seems the latter. All to often that card feels like it is to little to late or a win more card. Is it possible that Eternal Dragon may be slightly better in that slot? He provides early card advantage and ensures never missing a land drop and also comes in as a late game finisher. Thoughts?

P.S. While I realize posting your deck to often is a massive pain I think the changes warrant an update.

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [M10] Plains (1)
2 [M10] Island (1)
3 [R] Tundra
3 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
1 [FUT] Tolaria West

// Creatures
1 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [DD2] Counterspell
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
3 [RAV] Lightning Helix
4 [DD2] Ancestral Vision
3 [CST] Brainstorm
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [SHM] Firespout
2 [RAV] Compulsive Research

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
SB: 1 [RAV] Lightning Helix
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 [M10] Jace Beleren
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 3 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

Tangle.Wire
08-11-2009, 08:26 AM
I actually have no experience to this deck but i goldfished with a nearly compareable decklist, i disslike 2 Slots of the Lists i have seen, first is that i would play at least 2 jace and 2 elspeth if possible even 2 ajani. Instead of the compulsiv research i'd favor either compulsion or traderoutes, they get awesome with crucible and against LD effects, compulsion would be some more flexible as u dont need to discard lands.

Second Slots where the path to exile, while playing 3-4 lightning helix and 4 swords i think this slot would be better used in bounce spells or something like oblivion ring etc which could target other permanents than creatures too. :rolleyes:

nodahero
08-11-2009, 11:46 AM
@TangleWire: While I do not disagree with the power of Crucible+Trade Routes+Opposing LD to be great... I do disagree that it belongs in this deck and more specifically mine. My list only runs 1 Crucible and no way to tutor for it first. Second I would need to find room to fit in Trade Routes with the only visible option being the second Path. Finally I am not too terrified of opposing LD to begin with. I run more lands than most decks and thus if they are wasting my lands they are actually setting themselves back farther than me typically. Not to mention my deck needs 3 land to run and only 4 to win (one benefit of only having 3 four mana Planeswalkers).
Also as previously mentioned I do agree with you on the overabundance of targeted removal and have been considering swapping the second Path for the fourth EE due to its overall flexibility while also adding in a Tropical Island to set the EEs at 4 although I doubt that is needed so I am not sure I would ever set it there. Then again if we want the second Ajani (which I have wanted) he may be the swap for the Path.

Can anyone please tell me what four drops their are that I would want to blow up with EEs? The only cards I can even think of that get played are Moat and Sower... two cards I am not very afraid of.

Tangle.Wire
08-12-2009, 03:48 AM
I was just thinking about a permanent solution for the 2 slots of Compulsiv research, but as i said i never played this deck by myself so i dont know which spells are the best, i think even Intuition, Gifts or Fact or Fiction could be nice?

The current 4 mana drops on legacy that have been played where:

Smokestack,Moat,Humility,Wrath/Damnation,Sower/Control Magic but this are all nor really dangerous due this deck, a Smokestack could but is really not played anymore.

nodahero
08-12-2009, 09:16 AM
Well if all goes well I should be rocking this to a top 8 finish in like 2 and a half days. Although I often do random audibles and end up regretting it. I still want a better finisher than EDragon and Decree so if anyone has any ideas I am all ears.

aTn
08-12-2009, 09:37 AM
nodahero, I like your list but it seems to be lacking threats/kill conditions.

Does this turn out to be true in testing ?

Shawn
08-12-2009, 11:47 AM
Can anyone please tell me what four drops their are that I would want to blow up with EEs?

The 4th color is for Explosives is unnecessary, since the most threatening cards there are planeswalkers, which see only see play in the "mirror". Plus, they can be countered, legend ruled (Elspeth), and burned in your version.


It may be my lack of landstill experience but... Decree dosn't really seem that impressive no matter how you use it. Is their an ideal scenario for it?...Is it possible that Eternal Dragon may be slightly better in that slot?

Decree and Dragon serve different purposes. Dragon is your 24th land, then a win-condition. Decree is an amazing win-condition, and a blowout against counterbalance thresh, and the mirror. It's also fanatastic at stabilizing against tribal decks like goblins, where most of their dorks are 2/2's or 1/1's.

nodahero
08-12-2009, 10:13 PM
While on paper the deck looks lacking in win conditions in actuality it does not. The existence of the three walkers, the manland, the EDragon/Decree/Trinket Mage, and Crucible do actually provide sufficient power to pull out the win. Depending on the meta you can actually swap the two compulsive back for Jace to provide slower card advantage and yet another 2 win conditions but with the expected meta for worlds being more zoo based the quick burst in card advantage seems much more beneficial.

My issue with the Decree is that it often feels like it does not provide sufficient return on investment in the early game and in the late game feels like win more. My other idea for that slot was to run Trinket Mage due to his body and his ability to fetch out a benefical artifact in both the control and aggro matchup, Top and EE respectively.

I will go try and get in some testing for that final "win con" slot in a little bit and report back prior to worlds.

Enigma
08-13-2009, 11:27 AM
I just want to keep the list updated. Here's what I'm currently running:

// Lands
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Tolaria West
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
2 Polluted Delta

-1 Tolaria West
+1 Polluted Delta
More consistance on land drop for a better early/mid game.


// Spells
1 Decree of Justice
1 Ajani Vengeant
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace Beleren
4 Ancestral Vision
2 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Fire/Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Nev Disk
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Humility
1 Sensei's Divining Top

-1 Crucible of Worlds
-1 Engineered Explosives
-1 Jace Beleren
-2 Forbid
+1 Sensei's Divining Top
+1 Nev Disk
+1 Humility
+2 Counterspell
I always liked forbid, but the current meta is so fast (Elves Survival, Zoo, Merfolk, Tempo Thresh) that I need the 2cc CS. At my 4th land drop, I would like to reset the board, that's why I'll give Nev Disk and Humility a try (combined with E. Tutor). That makes me able to go -1 CoW and +1 Top.


// Sideboard
SB: 1 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Dismantling Blow
SB: 1 Pulse of the Fields
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 Meddling Mage
SB: 2 Ajani Goldmane
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Negate

-1 Pyroblast
-1 Hydroblast
-1 Wing Shards
-1 Misdirection
+1 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Negate
+2 Ajani Goldmane
Cut the conditionals Wish board to something really effective: 2x Goldmane, something really versatile: E. Tutor (which is a better answer to Progenitus deck (E.tutor into Humility), and +1 weapon against Storm in the form of negate.


It's nice to see some of you guys trying out the deck and tweaking it.

P-M

GGoober
08-13-2009, 12:03 PM
Lol Enigma, your latest list is almost like landstill, with the Standstills changed for Ancestral Vision and the Brainstorm changed for Fire//Ice and Top changed for Jace. I believe your latest list plays like Landstill except that your earlier plays are more fragile without Brainstorm/Top but you have better mid/late game with the walkers and Visions.

I'm just curious as to if you had any problems stabilizing in the early game. If not, it may because your meta is slower (aggro-control) and this is the deck that's better in that meta. If your meta is faster, then I think Landstill gives a much more stable metagame.

The list is almost like Landstill now, with the exception that you play Visions over Standstill and run no Brainstorms. I like the card advantage of this deck, but I don't like how those spells are easily countered by Counterbalance (Vision is more easily countered by Balance than Standstill). Fire//Ice is prone to Snares so it's not that great a removal. It kills bobs and lavamancers, but doesn't hurt cats and goyfs.

Omega
08-17-2009, 09:22 AM
People : To those asking for results, this deck made TOP 2 yesterday at a 33 persons Timewalk Tournament in Montreal. I do not have the list, but I believe the deck co-creator will post it shortly.

I couldn't see him play, because I was too busy playing (You know, Landstill isn't exactly a fast deck, although I believe I play very fast. I've played even faster than aggro decks in certain matches). But from what I've heard here and there, the deck did fairly well, even against his worth matchups (Canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh for example. I believe my MU is also slightly bad. If they disrupt too quickly too early, there are little chances of recovering. If you have more lands than they can destroy, you should win :D I believe he has the same gameplan as me against the Canadian deck)

Too bad we didn't play the top 2, but 8 hours of Magic were getting us all tired. I haven't had the chance of playing against Ultimate Walker yet. He believes he has a favourable match against me. How strange, because I believed the same :P

anyway great tournamnet!

Robert

Enigma
08-17-2009, 09:48 AM
Here's the last list Omega's talking about:


Piloted by Yan Lampron for Goyf-walk tournament:
Soon to be on deckcheck.net

4 Force of will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Helix
2 Forbid
2 Humility
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Jace Beleren
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Spell Snare
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Decree of justice
1 Ajani Vengeant
2 Cunning Wish
2 Crucible of Worlds

3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Plains
2 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West
1 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau

SB:
4 Meddling Mage
1 Misdirection
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Pulse of the field
1 Extirpate
2 Relic of progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pyroblast
1 Blue elemental blast
1 Path to exile
1 Volcanic Fallout

Major difference:
+4 Helix (thanks to Klaus)
+2 Humility
+1 Plateau (MVP land of the day)

-4 Fire/Ice
-1 E.E
-1 Tolaria West
And the 61st card


SB: +1 Volcanic Fallout (it made him win an unwinnable game against Goblins on top4 by killing 7 Goblins)
-1 Wing shards

Default: Low blue card count
Advantage: Wreck the aggro MU.

P-M

nodahero
08-18-2009, 07:21 PM
I have some good news and some bad news.
The bad news is I did not play ultimate walker at worlds due primarily to my inability to settle on a solid sideboard. The good news is I did take 23 overall out of 182 players using my custom built Loam list. If you guys have any questions about my current list I am still also deciding on my win con... Decree just seems to poor without Standstill in play...

Nizmox
08-18-2009, 11:09 PM
Probably a stupid question, but has anyone considered running solitary confinement? In conjunction with Jace you wouldn't be in any danger of running out of cards to discard, but I guess you'd be giving the opponent too much card advantage?

EDIT: Nevermind, stupid idea, I realised this doesn't prevent your planeswalkers being damaged/killed, since they'd opt to attack the planeswalker instead of you.

druidguru
08-19-2009, 02:42 PM
I played various gimpy versions of this deck in a few of the legacy tournies at Gen Con. The list above seems a lot better than what I ran and I am switching over. I agree though that decree seemed a little weak over the weekend.

What about swapping decree with a single copy of Vedalken Shackles? The deck may not run enough islands for it, but nearly each round I felt like a copy could have swung the game. Also note that I play 2 copies of EE and one enlightened tutor, so the shackles would be fetchable. Has anyone else considered shackles?

Thx

Fossil4182
08-20-2009, 02:14 AM
Would Moat be a good fit in this deck instead of a second Humility?

elgoff
08-20-2009, 12:36 PM
Would Moat be a good fit in this deck instead of a second Humility?

Yes and no, me and Yan Lampron just taklked about putting Moat in the deck...instead of what?? Tetsing will tell us!! Until next week, good testing everyone!!

Omega
08-21-2009, 12:53 PM
Most creatures do not have flying in Legacy, so we can say Moat is about the same as Humility.

But Moat stops you from attacking too, forcing you to rely solely on the Elspeth. A smart opponent will see that too

Robert

Romanus
08-21-2009, 03:57 PM
I agree. Moat makes Decree useless, and Elspeth/AV your only real wincons.

Against landstill that could be a big problem. They run more hard counters and vindicate. Granted we have forbid cheese in our favor in the long game, but I still think moat would hurt more than it helps. Humility blasts flyers too, so it negates any random jank.

Carabas
08-21-2009, 06:21 PM
Decree can win over moat, you just have to do yourself the injustice of hardcasting it.

Romanus
08-22-2009, 12:09 AM
Decree can win over moat, you just have to do yourself the injustice of hardcasting it.

Point taken, but yuck. I'll take Elspeth anyday :cool:

legacyplayer0
08-24-2009, 09:03 AM
I played this list to a 13th place finish in a field of 60-70 people.

NY Walker

4 Ancestral Vision
3 Spell Snare
2 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinket Mage
2 Compulsive Research
1 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Ajani Vengeant
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Wrath of God
4 Force of Will

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Plateau
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tolaria West
2 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Ancient Den
1 Island
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Pulse of the Fields
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Firespout

I beat Elf Surivival, Bant Countertop, Canadian Threshold, and Grb Survival. I drew with Solidarity, which was very lucky, and Goblins, which was played by an unusually slow player. I lost to a 5 color, 64 card awful counterbalance deck.

The deck ran very smoothly, and I didn't miss the Decrees at all.

You might be able to watch a couple of my matches in the coverage thread for the August 22 Vestal tournament.

hebrewhammer
08-24-2009, 09:57 PM
legacyplayer0 do you think that threads is really made a difference? did you ever wish it was a decree? what if u cut one vision and the threads and made them a decree?

legacyplayer0
08-25-2009, 12:42 PM
The one Threads is actually there because I didn't think Explosives was enough mass removal on its own, and I wanted a few more cards that could deal with more than one creature at once. So I put in some Wraths, but that really clogged up the 4cc, so I turned the third Wrath into a Threads to make things run more smoothly. Plus there's nothing more fun than playing Threads on a Dreadnought.

I used to play 2 Decrees in my list, but after playing some actual games I realized that Decree doesn't actually do anything. For it to make a real difference, you need to spend a huge amount of mana. It's too slow against aggressive decks, and many of the blue decks that it's supposed to be good against are packing Stifle. Cutting the Decrees is how I found room for the Wraths, and they have made a big difference. You're the control deck in almost every matchup, so even against slow decks like the counterbalance the extra removal is useful, because anything that drags the game on longer is good.

beastman
08-25-2009, 03:05 PM
Good job phil. Losing to such pure unadaltered luck against gus had to be painful. Nice showing though.

legacyplayer0
08-25-2009, 05:37 PM
Thanks for the support. The loss against Gus's pile was more painful than you can imagine.

Fossil4182
08-25-2009, 11:08 PM
Is there a reason not to run Pernicious Deed over Engineered Explosives besides the fact the deck can recur Explosives with Academy Ruins? I ask because Deed would seem to be a functionally better board sweeper given its ability to hit just about everything. Plus, it can board sweep everything will still leaving the Planeswalkers intact.

Raptor
08-25-2009, 11:10 PM
Is there a reason not to run Pernicious Deed over Engineered Explosives besides the fact the deck can recur Explosives with Academy Ruins? I ask because Deed would seem to be a functionally better board sweeper given its ability to hit just about everything. Plus, it can board sweep everything will still leaving the Planeswalkers intact.

Deed can be really slow, getting green mana + black can be harsh to have. Plus you waste a turn playing it and another turn activating it. EE does almost the same thing and cost way less and not to mention the academy ruins "lock" which will win game by itself.

Jak
08-28-2009, 12:12 AM
I'm really just about to try this deck for the first time. I thought I would put up what I am about to run with.

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Plateau
3 Island
1 Plains
2 Academy Ruins

1 Eternal Dragon
2 Ajani Vengeant
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Lightning Helix
3 Firespout
1 Vedalken Shackles

4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare

4 Ancestral Visions
3 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
2 Compulsive Research

SB
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Negate / Counterspell
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Instant Sweeper (ideas? I was thinking Volcanic Fallout but that is heavy red. Cleansing Beam? This slot probably isn't even needed.)
2 Krosan Grip
3 Path to Exile
4 Pyroblast
2 Crucible of Worlds

I hate changing decks up before testing, but since there really is no established list, I tried to mash them all together. I am definitely trying out Phil's list now since I love the toolbox, however, I am trying to tune this to a more aggro meta. Thoughts? Is there anything that definitely needs to be in here that I am missing? I also know that it is 62 cards. I plan to trim it after testing.

Esper3k
08-28-2009, 01:45 AM
If you're going to run singleton Shackles, I'd consider running Enlightened Tutor as a 1 of so you have some ways to get it.

I've liked 1 Tolaria West (may go back up to 2) just to tutor for EE or Academy Ruins to complete the EE lock.

Jak
08-28-2009, 03:15 AM
If you're going to run singleton Shackles, I'd consider running Enlightened Tutor as a 1 of so you have some ways to get it.

I've liked 1 Tolaria West (may go back up to 2) just to tutor for EE or Academy Ruins to complete the EE lock.

I thought about Tutor, but it just really isn't worth it. Shackles is more of another removal spell / win condition.

Totally forgot about Tolaria West grabbing EE. I had the 1-1 split with Ruins but I figured 2 is better than one if it gets destroyed or something. If I don't like Trops, I'll probably add in 2 Wasteland and 2 Factories to go along with 1 Ruins and 1 West.

from Cairo
08-29-2009, 02:04 AM
Totally forgot about Tolaria West grabbing EE. I had the 1-1 split with Ruins but I figured 2 is better than one if it gets destroyed or something. If I don't like Trops, I'll probably add in 2 Wasteland and 2 Factories to go along with 1 Ruins and 1 West.

Tolaria West is amazing in this shell: Ancestral Visions, Engineered Explosives, Wasteland, Academy Ruins, Mishra's Factory... can grab card drawing, answers to any threat, recursion engine or beats.

Esper3k
08-29-2009, 10:01 AM
The only reason I'm running 1 of Tolaria West right now is when you get it in your opening hand with say 1-2 other lands, you just want to cry :(

I just mentioned the Enlightened Tutor with Shackles since you're playing Shackles as a 1 of, you probably won't see it that often. With Tutor, at least it gives you effectively 2 copies of it, plus it can grab other stuff (although I guess you're not running Humility).

Cenarius
09-01-2009, 07:33 AM
I'm really just about to try this deck for the first time. I thought I would put up what I am about to run with.

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Plateau
3 Island
1 Plains
2 Academy Ruins

1 Eternal Dragon
2 Ajani Vengeant
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Lightning Helix
3 Firespout
1 Vedalken Shackles

4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare

4 Ancestral Visions
3 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
2 Compulsive Research

SB
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Negate / Counterspell
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Instant Sweeper (ideas? I was thinking Volcanic Fallout but that is heavy red. Cleansing Beam? This slot probably isn't even needed.)
2 Krosan Grip
3 Path to Exile
4 Pyroblast
2 Crucible of Worlds

I hate changing decks up before testing, but since there really is no established list, I tried to mash them all together. I am definitely trying out Phil's list now since I love the toolbox, however, I am trying to tune this to a more aggro meta. Thoughts? Is there anything that definitely needs to be in here that I am missing? I also know that it is 62 cards. I plan to trim it after testing.

Got some questions for you:

Why 2 Academy Ruins?
Why do you think Firespout + Helix is better than any other removal? For example: Wrath of God/Humilty/Moat?
Why do you think Compulsive Research is better than Jace Beleren? It says 1UU Draw a card, Then prevent damage or draw another card in your next turn.
Why do you think Ancestral Vision is better than Standstill? Maybe a bit weird question but I personally prefer the effect Standstill has over the game.

Esper3k
09-01-2009, 01:38 PM
I do think the Ancestral Vision vs Standstill debate is an interesting one.

Here's how I see it:

Standstill

Pros:
-Almost always gets your cards faster
-Can almost immediately break stalemates
-Plays really well with Planeswalkers and Factories

Cons:
-Spell Snarable
-On board removal such as Qasali Pridemage/Seals/EE is bad for it
-Can benefit your opponent
-Greater chance of running across decks that are also built to use it

Ancestral Vision

Pros:
-Amazing if suspended early
-Low mana investment
-Doesn't tend to grow Tarmogoyf

Cons:
-Slow!
-Counterbalance + Top = Sad Times
-Chalice @ 0

miko
09-01-2009, 03:35 PM
Standstill

Pros:
-Almost always gets your cards faster
-Can almost immediately break stalemates
-Plays really well with Planeswalkers and Factories

Cons:
-Spell Snarable
-On board removal such as Qasali Pridemage/Seals/EE is bad for it
-Can benefit your opponent
-Greater chance of running across decks that are also built to use it

Ancestral Vision

Pros:
-Amazing if suspended early
-Low mana investment
-Doesn't tend to grow Tarmogoyf

Cons:
-Slow!
-Counterbalance + Top = Sad Times
-Chalice @ 0

so visions win because they only have 3 cons and the same amount of pros whereas standstill has 4 cons?

i mean the pros and cons are obvious. but what do you want to play in ultimate walker?

Black Mass
09-01-2009, 04:40 PM
I guess Standstill has lost his effectiveness a bit. Many aggro decks play vial or ways to get past standstill where they might be forcing you to break you own standstill. With AV this problem doesn't occur. You invest 1 mana and 4 turns later mostly you'll be able to draw 3 cards, that is a certainty.

I also like the effect AV has on the board. Aggro tries to overextend because those three cards can mean their end. Control/aggro controll will hold back a counter allmost every single time for it, thus giving you room to play other spells.

You could play either in the deck I guess, but AV seems to be the more attractive card to me.

jimirynk
09-01-2009, 05:00 PM
so visions win because they only have 3 cons and the same amount of pros whereas standstill has 4 cons?

i mean the pros and cons are obvious. but what do you want to play in ultimate walker?

But you can stifle visions.

Esper3k
09-01-2009, 06:17 PM
But you can stifle visions.

On the other hand, Daze is almost virtually ineffective against Vision as well.

For me, not all of the pros/cons have the same weight.

I like Vision because:

1) It's not played much in Legacy, so people have less experience dealing with it.

2) Standstill, seeing more play, does suffer from dealing with other decks built around it.

3) I like that with AV, you never (barring the odd Misdirect) risk helping your opponent with it.

It also gives you another potential T1 play.

Cenarius
09-01-2009, 06:22 PM
I do think the Ancestral Vision vs Standstill debate is an interesting one.

Here's how I see it:

Standstill

Pros:
-Almost always gets your cards faster
-Can almost immediately break stalemates
-Plays really well with Planeswalkers and Factories

Cons:
-Spell Snarable
-On board removal such as Qasali Pridemage/Seals/EE is bad for it
-Can benefit your opponent
-Greater chance of running across decks that are also built to use it

Ancestral Vision

Pros:
-Amazing if suspended early
-Low mana investment
-Doesn't tend to grow Tarmogoyf

Cons:
-Slow!
-Counterbalance + Top = Sad Times
-Chalice @ 0

Stifle is indeed a con. Which makes AV a lot worse since:

-Can benefit your opponent (Hardly comes forward)
-On board removal such as Qasali Pridemage/Seals/EE is bad for it (another weird flaw, since you can simply remove the cards before playing standstill. Since you only play standstill if you got a positive board or you want to stretch the game (which is always good for a deck like Landstill or UW (Ultimate Walker).
Spell snare is a con and that other decks are better designed to use Standstill is another con however the cons of AV are much worse than that. Trust me.

The pro's of AV are also vague. -Low mana investment it only costs 1 mana less, which isnt such a big deal since you dont want to play standstill turn 2 or only if nothing have happened on the board which isn't the case like 80% of the time.
If you play standstill at turn 4, you will get as fast cards as AV. AV is only amazing when suspended at turn 1, after that it just becomes a U, wait 4 turns, hope you survive, gather your counters (against U decks) and hope it resolves.
For a deck as Landstill the one power more Tarmogoyf does not make any difference when played:
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
1 Humility
3 Engineered Explosives

Atleast, this is my removal.

Standstill has so much more effect on the game against any other deck than Vial-decks than AV that it is worth playing Standstill instead of AV. Trust me.

Cenarius
09-01-2009, 06:25 PM
On the other hand, Daze is almost virtually ineffective against Vision as well.

For me, not all of the pros/cons have the same weight.

I like Vision because:

1) It's not played much in Legacy, so people have less experience dealing with it.

2) Standstill, seeing more play, does suffer from dealing with other decks built around it.

3) I like that with AV, you never (barring the odd Misdirect) risk helping your opponent with it.

It also gives you another potential T1 play.

1) Random. People only need to read it once (probably already heard from it) and need to gather counters for 4! turns.

2) It only suffers from 2 decks, it owns the rest (except maybe other control)

3) The misdirect only happens when you made a mistake or if your opponent is having the nuts. Both will not occur more than 1-3% of all games played.

Jak
09-01-2009, 06:34 PM
Got some questions for you:

Why 2 Academy Ruins?
Why do you think Firespout + Helix is better than any other removal? For example: Wrath of God/Humilty/Moat?
Why do you think Compulsive Research is better than Jace Beleren? It says 1UU Draw a card, Then prevent damage or draw another card in your next turn.
Why do you think Ancestral Vision is better than Standstill? Maybe a bit weird question but I personally prefer the effect Standstill has over the game.

In case one gets destroyed. It is such a powerhouse and if you run into Wasteland or another Ruins, having the second is nice. I also don't have Crucible in that list.

Cheaper. 4cc is clunky as hell with the Planeswalkers and having faster answers is better.

Gets answers now than waiting for them.

Honestly, I still prefer Standstill. That's why I would rather play Walkerstill than this. AV is pretty slow and as I said, I would rather draw my cards now than later. It is also weaker to a lot of cards being played heavily in the format.

Esper3k
09-01-2009, 11:14 PM
Cenarius - I'm not sure why you asked about AV in the first place if you were already set on Standstill being better?

For me, I think it's interesting enough that it's worth testing and playing with. I think straight up, Standstill is a better card - but in the Legacy metagame, it may not hold to be true.

Decks that play Spell Snare (Canadian Thresh always seems to be around), decks that run Aether Vial (Merfolk), or use Standstill themselves (Dreadstill, Landstill) lessen the effectiveness of Standstill.

Oh, another reason I can see people playing AV (at least in this deck) is because Tolaria West seems to be a popular card for the deck.

Cenarius
09-02-2009, 06:36 AM
Cenarius - I'm not sure why you asked about AV in the first place if you were already set on Standstill being better?

For me, I think it's interesting enough that it's worth testing and playing with. I think straight up, Standstill is a better card - but in the Legacy metagame, it may not hold to be true.

Decks that play Spell Snare (Canadian Thresh always seems to be around), decks that run Aether Vial (Merfolk), or use Standstill themselves (Dreadstill, Landstill) lessen the effectiveness of Standstill.

Oh, another reason I can see people playing AV (at least in this deck) is because Tolaria West seems to be a popular card for the deck.

Well I'm convinced that Standstill is better than AV for me because of the way I play the deck, I guess. I just wanted to open the discussion since there seemed to be no discussion going on.
Tolaria West --> AV will cost 4 mana and 4 turns to get 3 cards. Legacy is a fast format, maybe too fast for a card like this.
I played Faeries in Extended (with AV) and I know that sometimes it is awesome (when suspended at turn 1) but I already felt that AV was even too slow for the extended metagame either. AV has no effect on the game since it is just a wait 4 turns - draw 3 cards card.
Standstill does have an effect on the state of the board. Since it will either slow the board down or gives you 3 cards which is pretty awesome for 2 man, isn't it?
I know that Dreadstill, Merfolk and Landstill (in certain amounts) plays standstill but Dreadstill is already a positive/good matchup. Landstill is a good matchup I suppose since you play 6 planeswalkers (with Ajani just being broken) and Merfolk (when playing wog and especially Moat shouldn't be a big problem aswell, although it is not a good or very positive matchup ofcourse).
I'm a Tempo Threshold player aswell (playing it for a long time now) and the threath of Spell Snare can just be ignored. You can always say that you shouldn't play a card because there's a answer to it. Why do people play goyf when people play Swords to Plowshares? Because Tarmogoyf is the best creature in the metagame. Why do people play Standstill when people play Spell Snare? Because Standstill is far more superior than AV.

This is my current list:

2 Ajani Vengeant
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Jace Beleren

1 Eternal Dragon
1 Decree of Justice

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell

4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Cunning wish

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Wrath of God
1 Moat

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
2 Island
2 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Dust Bowl

rsaunder
09-02-2009, 10:28 AM
It's amazing how nearly identical that list is to everything going on in the UWx landstill thread...

Cenarius
09-02-2009, 12:49 PM
You're completely right on the fact that my list looks like the UW(x) landstill lists disgussed at Mtgthesource. However, in my opinion, it's still an Ultimate Walker list with more raw power than the Ultimate Walker lists disgussed here.
I personally think that playing sub-optimal cards like Ancestral Vision, Firespout (although it has some pro's), Lightning Helix and many other cards (like forbid) should not a good example for what Ultimate Walker could really do. I'm pretty confidant that my last has more raw power than Ultimate Walker, in terms of removal. And in fact has more raw power than UW(x) Landstill, in terms of planeswalkers and thus have an advantage in the mirror.

I see no real advantage of playing cards like Lightning helix, Firespout, Ancestral Vision, Vedalken Shackles over Cunning wish, Moat, Wog etc.

Romanus
09-02-2009, 01:00 PM
Why Moat over Humility?

Cenarius
09-02-2009, 01:19 PM
Because I think that Moat has a better synenergy with Planeswalkers than Humility.
Since Humility will not solve the problems (facing PW's) but makes them only smaller. However, with swarms, your PW's will die aswell.
Moat just solves the problem by not giving them the chance to ruin your PW's. They simply can't attack.

dearleader
09-02-2009, 01:52 PM
In Landstill, I've always preferred humility over moat, because most MD solutions to enchantments are creatures (pridemage, trygon, harmonic sliver) that humility can deal with. But I guess Moat could work for you since Walkerstill is more oriented around dominating with planeswalkers as opposed to the board control of landstill.

I've personally never had problems dealing with the 1/1's with Elspeth out. In other situations, factories and decree helped with humility.

Esper3k
09-02-2009, 02:19 PM
Of course it costs more to tutor up AV with Tolaria West. However, with that argument, running any tutor/wish is a bad idea.

I was just pointing out that's another bonus to using AV over Standstill in this deck.

Here's the list I was fiddling around with this weekend:

4 Force of Will
3 Engineered Explosives

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
1 Enlightened Tutor

2 Lightning Helix

2 Jace Belaren
3 Volcanic Fallout

2 Wrath of God
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Humility
2 Ajani Vengeant

4 Flooded Strand
2 Wooded Foothills

2 Volcanic Island
4 Tundra
3 Plateau

1 Island
1 Plains

3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West

Heavier on the red and white. Fallouts were ok, but I'd like to try out Firespout in that slot. The Helixes were pretty good, being able to kill 3 toughness guys as well as giving you some life for a little breathing room against Zoo and Suicide decks.

I'm also wanting to go back to trying a few Fire/Ice because I was having some problems finding blue cards to pitch to FoW.

I personally like Humility over Moat because Humility shrinks down every creature. Since my list also runs so many sweepers, Humility really makes them better (since under Humility, their only option is to overextend on creatures). I haven't really had problems with 1/1's attacking my planeswalkers either and as Dearleader pointed out, shutting off creature based enchantment hate is huge.

Also in my metagame, Tombstalkers and Trygons are all over the place, so Moat just isn't as good.

from Cairo
09-02-2009, 08:28 PM
I see no real advantage of playing cards like Lightning helix, Firespout, Ancestral Vision, Vedalken Shackles over Cunning wish, Moat, Wog etc.

These cards give you a huge advantage over the options typically seen in UWx Landstill versus the agro match. That is the major difference I see in the two decks, is that Ultimate Walker has geared itself to be better suited against the surge of Zoo, Tribal, and creature heavy CB decks (w/ 10+ guys) decks. It has replaced Landstill's versatility (Cunning Wish, Fact or Fiction, Nev Disk, Counterspell) with some more narrow but metagamed removal (Lightning Helix, Firespout).

Lightning Helix is a 2 for 1 against Zoo, and answers Nacatl or Pridemage a turn faster than Vindicate would. Firespout is a turn faster than Wrath of God, and doesn't require double colored mana, this can be huge against Goblins or Merfolks mana disruption, it's obvious downside is not dealing with fat, if your meta is infested with Tombstalkers and Dreadnoughts in addition to typically Tarmogoyfs than Firespout is subpar, if your meta has alot of Zoo and Tribal Firespout is a great sweeper. Ancestral Vision isn't dead in your hand if your opponent gets a threat or Vial on board unlike Standstill. I agree Shackles is not good in this deck.

Ultimate Walker also abandons the Standstill/Decree of Justice engine and since it doesn't have to function under a Standstill the slots for 2-3 Decrees can become additional Planeswalkers and Crucible(s) (which come online much faster than Decree).

The major selling point I see to the deck is that in the right meta it's curve is almost a full turn faster than Landstill. With it's CA engine being 1cc instead of 2cc, 2nd removal (Helix) being 2cc instead of 3cc (Vindicate), it's sweeper being 3cc (Spout) instead of 4cc (Wrath of God), it's mirror/control bombs being 3cc (Crucible/Jace) instead of 3+cc (Fact or Fiction/Cunning Wish -> X), it's additional win conditions being quite a bit cheaper (Ajani Vengeant / Jace vs. Decree). With this lower curve and faster push to the mid-late game, the control player can end games faster.

I understand that Landstill shouldn't go to time, and that it has the means to end games quickly sometimes too, but at the same time having played the deck at numerous events there have been many games where control is established but the deck still takes forever to win. I think if one has a good idea of what to expect from their meta they can gear Ultimate Walker to bypass that pitfall, while the lower curve can also help pull wins one otherwise might not get.

klaus
09-03-2009, 08:50 PM
I'm currently testing and refining an Ultimate Walker/Speedstill blend that goes a little something like this:

"Deck Name"
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace Beleren
1 Ajani Vengeant ------------- a 2nd copy could be beneficial...undecided
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will -------------- a total of 19 U cards should do atm
4 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Firespout
1 Vedalken Shackles
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Dismantling Blow ------------- debatable choice but 3 EE don't seem to be enough to fight opposing CBs, and without Wish a Disenchant effect makes sense to me here
-
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Plains
3 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island ---------- probably not going to add Tropical for EE and Spout
1 Academy Ruins

SB (rather self-explanatory, I think):
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Jace Beleren
2 Lightning Helix
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Counterbalance [got inspired by Marius Hausmann]
3 Red Elemental Blast

---
I'm very happy with the deck's performance so far, but I'm still open to suggestions and crits.

Romanus
09-03-2009, 09:08 PM
How well has CB been in the side Klaus?

Add one Plateau to your list. Trust me, it's great.

That list is looking a lot like mine these days, glad to see our testing is taking us in the same direction.

gustha
09-04-2009, 03:47 AM
I've already said to you that the i love this list. The only thing I've missed so far is: -1 volcanic + 1 plateau (does not influence shackles that much, but an eventual extirpate on red can be annoying) and 2 path to exile to sneak somewhere - too used to speedstil approach, I feel naked without them! :laugh: It's also true that this list is a little more tuned more versus aggro so firespout is better than path and shackles works as spot removal #5.
I agree Shackles is not good in this deck.Shackles is great in this deck, both versus aggro than versus control: Re. Re. Re., Reusable Recurrable Removal. What would you ask for more? :tongue: I was also wondering myself about the 2nd copy of vengeant, but the only solution I found was adding another card, or cutting 1 standstill (both of which does not satisfy me so much). I've tested the list yesterday with my team (due to study I can't go to that tournament, so I left aside the other list), and found that:
-the trop is not needed; the most dangerous/annoying flying things get hit by stp (tombstalker) or reb (jenara, faeries in general, feaerie stompy's creatures); while splashing for another color to add supposed versatility to firespout is not needed, the point should remain wether to add a 4th color to improve EE's efficiency: we have discarded this point as well (EE does its best from 0 to 3).
-that singleton dismantling blow, though it may seem a bit random, it never is: it always has a target, and is a wonderful topdeck if you are low on cards; plus, being able to respond to counterbalance with a card more is absolutely needed.

klaus
09-04-2009, 04:33 AM
Add one Plateau to your list. Trust me, it's great.

I've considered that Plateau before, but I'm still hesitant to add it, even though I've played UWb Landstill with the common Sea/Scrubland split and liked it. The thing with the list above is that it packs 8 [x]UU spells plus Shackles. The Extirpate on Volcanic Island is indeed a horror scenario - I'm guessing however that it will happen about once every 50ish games, making the argument somewhat obsolete.
I know it's a comfortable feeling to fetch your 3rd land and keep all 3 colors no matter what land they waste, but that bonus alone does not convince me to change the config.


How well has CB been in the side Klaus?

The main aim of this choice is to provide reasonable combo hate (it definitely outperforms Meddling Mage here), but it also happens to shine against Midrange Aggro, Burn, Sligh, Control and many other decks without access to green for Grip :wink:
The lowered curve (when compared to the original Ult.Walker list) also makes it more powerful. At first I thought the number of CMC 2 spells might be too low but more often than not you'd side in the Helixes alongside the CBs making it an acceptable total of 11 2ers.

Romanus
09-04-2009, 09:37 AM
Very cool. I've been looking for an excuse to ditch MM and now I have one! :cool:

Esper3k
09-04-2009, 12:42 PM
Chandra Ablaze has been spoiled now - I think she could be interesting in this deck (too bad she costs 6).

She's 4RR, starts with 5 Loyalty counters and her abilities are:

+1: Discard a card. If a red card is discarded this way, Chandra Ablaze deals 4 damage to target player or creature.
-2: Each player discards his or her hand, then draws 3 cards.
-7: Cast any number of red instant and/or sorcery cards from your graveyard without paying their mana costs.

gustha
09-06-2009, 03:27 AM
Today i woke up and saw this:

Couldn't it be in the deck as a 1/2-of, to replace a delta? This doesn't fetch basic island, but gives us access to every dual in the deck (like delta) and also basic plains (so a 1-1 split between delta/arid mesa is maybe good enough). Or let's just wait for the blu-red fetch, to replace delta completely.

Romanus
09-06-2009, 10:09 AM
Today i woke up and saw this:

Couldn't it be in the deck as a 1/2-of, to replace a delta? This doesn't fetch basic island, but gives us access to every dual in the deck (like delta) and also basic plains (so a 1-1 split between delta/arid mesa is maybe good enough). Or let's just wait for the blu-red fetch, to replace delta completely.

Woke up and saw what?

OuterCrow
09-06-2009, 10:15 AM
Probably this:

Arid Mesa
Land
Rare
T, Pay 1 Life, Sacrifice Arid Mesa: Search your library for a Mountain or Plains card and put it onto the battlefield. Then shuffle your library.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=182245

maggot870
09-06-2009, 10:17 AM
Woke up and saw what?
http://mtgsalvation.com/zendikar-spoiler.html
Arid Mesa

Land Rare
{T}, Pay 1 Life, Sacrifice Arid Mesa: Search your library for a Mountain or Plains card and put it onto the battlefield. Then shuffle your library.
#221/249

Wizards are going to print non ally-coloured fetchies...

Romanus
09-06-2009, 10:17 AM
Ah gotcha.

I vote grab a blue-red. It will let you grab every dual we need.

gustha
09-07-2009, 02:10 PM
F*ck sorry, the link disappeared.
The duals aren't a big problem, delta can fetch them as well, and probably 1 arid mesa is good because it fetches a basic plains. I'll wonder if a 3/3 split (3 flooded/3 unstable geyser, the UR one) could give us access to a basic mountain, like the UWb version with vindicate. Something like:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Unstable Geyser
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Dust Bowl
2 Plains
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

Preside, the basic mountain is clearly for EE@3 and vengeant, though ofc it is not strictly needed (but maybe it is for a secure firespout). But post-side, in MU's like merfolks we side in 5 cards which rely on red, and have only 3 wastable red sources and no crucible. (The absence of crucible is something I miss in these MU's). The same is true for other aggro/aggrocontrol decks, though here 3 volcanics are usually enough to cast ur 3 rebs/helix.

Opax
09-13-2009, 12:26 PM
what about Rings of Brighthearth

i was playing in t2 plainswalker and i found it very powerful. now in legacy it can forc fetching, it made elspeth token a 7/7 and ajani go for 6 dmg 6 life so its quite always a goyf dead

and 1st of all it make jace a good draw engine going so :

3
-1 doubled ( + 2 card)
-1 doubled (+ 2 card)
+2 non doubled (+ 1 each)

its 5 card in 3 turn vs 1 is not taht bad i think.

you can forc waste too.

wehat do you think about it??

Romanus
09-13-2009, 01:17 PM
what about Rings of Brighthearth

i was playing in t2 plainswalker and i found it very powerful. now in legacy it can forc fetching, it made elspeth token a 7/7 and ajani go for 6 dmg 6 life so its quite always a goyf dead

and 1st of all it make jace a good draw engine going so :

3
-1 doubled ( + 2 card)
-1 doubled (+ 2 card)
+2 non doubled (+ 1 each)

its 5 card in 3 turn vs 1 is not taht bad i think.

you can forc waste too.

wehat do you think about it??



I think it's a cool idea, but might fall into the "danger of cool things". The card by itself is dead unless you have board position to play it and activate it in one turn. (IE: 5 Mana)

Could be a win-more. Test it out and get back to us!

MattH
09-14-2009, 12:40 PM
Actually that sounds like a ton of fun. The synergy with fetches and Top are obvious, but man oh man would it be sweet to start copying Wastelands!

luma
09-19-2009, 03:41 PM
Just played the deck at a 26 player tournament to a 4-1 record and 2nd place with this list:

3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Plateau
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
2 Plains
2 Island
2 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West

3 Jace Beleren
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Ajani Vengeant
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Cunning Wish
1 Humility
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Decree of Justice
3 Lightning Helix

61 cards

SB:
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Path to Exile
1 Volcanic Fallout
1 Extirpate
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Pulse of the Fields
4 Meddling Mage
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Firespout

Here's what I remember and scribbled down during the tournament:

Round 1, Baseruption
I counter second and third turn Goyfs with Spell Snare. Lightning Helix takes down Confidant and a third Snare kills third Goyf. He kills my Jace and Elspeth with Vindicate, but the lone token is enough, 1 damage per turn. Before second game, he gets a game loss for illegal decklist. Sad, but no can do. We still play with sb for fun, he wins game 2 quite easily, and we don't finish game 3 before the next round starts.

1-0

Round 2, UW Merfolk
I have something for all his little fish. Adept gets Snare, LoA Stop and Mutavault Wasteland. He resolves a Reejerey after we trade FoWs, but I have a Humility, and Elspeth and Jace come down to win the game.

Game 2 he starts with Vial and 2x Adept. I get a turn 5 Visions, but he has one counter more when I cast Humility. I draw enough removal and Elspeth to stabilize at 3 life, and he scoops from 22 life.

2-0

Round 3, Train Wreck
He starts game 1 with three Hymns and two Duresses. Ouch. I hide an Elspeth with Brainstorm and make some tokens before he kills her with a big Consume Spirit. I stop his Korlashes and kill him with tokens and Factories.

He has again Hymn and Duress, but Jace draws me cards and Elspeth's tokens chump Korlash. The game goes on and on, but I have counters for his lethal Consume Spirits. I almost give the game away, when I try to EE his Korlash, only to find out he regenerates. In the end, Elspeth-boosted tokens and Factories take him down. He almost gets a draw by Oblivion Stoning Elspeth on his last extra turn (everything else was indestructible), but I have another in hand and kill him on the 5th extra turn.

3-0

Round 4, Red Sligh

What should I do against Sligh / Burn? I just couldn't do anything before getting burned out (2x Price of Progress in Game 1 and everything else in game 2). Even a wished Pulse of the Fields didn't do enough, with only 2 plains on the battlefield. Any suggestions to beating these matchups? A fellow landstill player suggested a single CoP:Red for tutoring.

3-1

Round 5, Tempo Threshold

I didn't make any notes in these games, but here's what I remember: I lose to "assisted manascrew". I don't resolve a single Visions, he has Stifles for them all. I get eaten by an angry Mongoose.

Game 2: I can't remember a thing, but the lifetotals look like a single Factory kills him, and a 6/7 Goyf has attacked once before moving to plow the fields.

Game 3: I keep a high-risk, high-gain hand: Tundra, Factory, 2x Vision, 2x Elspeth, Relic. The risk pays off, I find a Brainstorm and the lands I need. He counters my first Vision and Elspeth, but the second ones resolve. Firespout, Relic and recursive EE keeps his men out of the way, while Elspeth and Jace win the game for me.

About the deck: I'm not quite sure about the Wishes. Mostly I wished for P2E to kill a guy, once I got to kill a Top with a kicked Blow. How about replacing them with something else (I was thinking along the lines of E. Tutor / 2nd Humility / P2E), and using the wishboard slots for maybe red and blue Blasts? The Helixes were great against aggro and Confidants, but did absolutely nothing against Threshold (and other control-style decks with no killable creatures). Maybe it depends of the metagame, I expected quite a lot of aggro and decided that the Helixes are mainboard-worthy. Aiming bolts to the dome is really pointless. Any suggestions or comments?

TFD
09-20-2009, 01:03 PM
I play Electrolyzes instead of Lightning helixes. At first I played Fire // Ice, but found I was hardly ever using Ice and I could cast electrolyze very often with the amount of lands in this deck. I cut the decrees for forbid, and I kept the wishes in but I'm thinking of replacing them with something. Maybe Exalted Angel? It seems like it would be good vs. zoo and gobbos, but it would break the whole "creatureless" thing.

Paradigm Shift
09-20-2009, 01:20 PM
I play Electrolyzes instead of Lightning helixes. At first I played Fire // Ice, but found I was hardly ever using Ice and I could cast electrolyze very often with the amount of lands in this deck. I cut the decrees for forbid, and I kept the wishes in but I'm thinking of replacing them with something. Maybe Exalted Angel? It seems like it would be good vs. zoo and gobbos, but it would break the whole "creatureless" thing.

Try Control Magic, Vedalken Shackles, or perhaps the new 2-drop Enchantment from ZEN that produces Angels once it gets enough counters. These all seem like good cards to provide threats while also keeping the deck creature free. Control Magic and Shackles also double as pseudo-removal.

TFD
09-20-2009, 01:48 PM
Try Control Magic, Vedalken Shackles, or perhaps the new 2-drop Enchantment from ZEN that produces Angels once it gets enough counters. These all seem like good cards to provide threats while also keeping the deck creature free. Control Magic and Shackles also double as pseudo-removal.
Shackles sounds good, but I'm not sure the 2 drop enchantment is good, as dropping it on turn 2 even means it doesn't have any impact on the game state directly until turn 7 at the earliest. Thats if your opponent does no damage each turn. It's worth a try though.

Esper3k
10-02-2009, 12:30 AM
I've been wanting to test Luminarch Ascension at least as a 1 of (I play 1 Enlightented Tutor main).

With how many times you sit around playing draw/go, it looks really good on paper.

My only concern is that since it's a 2 drop, you may end up blowing it up a lot with your own EE's.

Electrolyze also looks really interesting. However, do you ever find yourself wishing it was a Fire, especially against something like a T2 Dark Confidant?

Hanni
10-02-2009, 12:41 AM
With your draw package of Brainstorm, Jace, and Standstill/Ancestral Visions, Hoofprints of the Stag is likely better than Luminarch since you'll get it's effect sooner. Not as explosive as a Luminarch once it reaches the threshold, but more defensive for you when it matters. Whether it's even necessary, would be the question.

TFD
10-02-2009, 06:44 AM
Sure, in that situation, fire is probably better. But its still pretty even if you;ve got that t3 land drop, even if you're going second since electrolyze cantrips.

Esper3k
10-02-2009, 11:02 AM
With your draw package of Brainstorm, Jace, and Standstill/Ancestral Visions, Hoofprints of the Stag is likely better than Luminarch since you'll get it's effect sooner. Not as explosive as a Luminarch once it reaches the threshold, but more defensive for you when it matters. Whether it's even necessary, would be the question.

Hoofprints definitely has the potential to generate 1 token faster, I agree.

I think their roles are different. Hoofprints is more defensive early. Luminarch is a game ender (once you have it online, you shouldn't have any problems winning the game in a few turns).

Another nice thing about Luminarch is that you can make the tokens on your opponent's turn, saving your mana for instants, etc. Hoofprints makes you use it on your turn, which makes our deck sad.

Esper3k
10-02-2009, 11:04 AM
Sure, in that situation, fire is probably better. But its still pretty even if you;ve got that t3 land drop, even if you're going second since electrolyze cantrips.

That's true - definitely something I'd like to give a test.

I've been running Fire/Ice because it gives me both removal and a blue spell to pitch to FoW (something I've had difficulties before with this deck).

Electrolyze does the same thing. The 3 cost to me is actually nice too since it dodges Spell Snare and CB more easily.

F3lix
10-04-2009, 02:56 PM
Hey guys,

I've been playing with this deck since Yan placed in the SCG tourney, a lot, and I think it's a absolute powerhouse.

I want to talk about my ideas about this deck, and my philosophy about playing it and its card choices.

I see a lot of people that are trying to squeeze in BS, or dropping forbid, or playing 0-1 humility or crucible, and I want to tell them why I believe that these are sub-optimal choices.

Before I get into individual cards, I'd like to talk about the decks gameplan. Firstly, this deck will beat anything in the late game, so we want to get there. Against aggro decks, we want to maim their threats with our removal, and stay out of the redzone with helix/pulse. Eventually they run out of gas, and you just win with factories/soldiers.

Against aggro/control, we again want to stall to get to the late game. We can counter they're worst threats with Spell Snare, and FoW if we absolutely have to, more on FoW later.

Against more control-ish decks, and aggro control that we know can out counter us we play a different gameplan. I often times play the beatdown. You want to play your must counters, which are A LOT (6x Planeswalkers, 4x Recall, 2x Humility, DoJ, and Crucible/EE/Wish to a smaller extent). Eventually, you will ware them out, and you'll resolve something, and then win. Don't always wait until you have counter backup, just know what order to play the threats in so you resolve your most powerful one, usually Elspeth. Keep the pressure on them to find answers and let them 2-1 themselves with FoW, you will win this match through pure CA.

It should now seem obvious why we don't run BS, it does not give us CA (though yes it gives us card quality), and more importantly, it's not a threat. I see people are dropping their Humility/Crucible or they're quasi-functional equivalents. We want exploit the maximum amount of CA, virtual or otherwise.

As for forbid vs. Counterspell, forbid is just better in this deck, plain and simple. Forbid cannot be snared, and is hard to hit with CB, it is recur-able, and gets even more powerful with Crucible. Sure, CS comes online a turn earlier, but this deck usually doesn't counter anything turn 2 unless its being snared, or you're FoWing an absolutely game breaking spell like Blood Moon.
I find I usually only use Forbid to maintain my position late game, and I usually buyback at that point.

I also want to point out that Crucible/Humility are crucial to this deck.
A resolved Humility is usually a game winner by itself, and of course combos well with, well, pretty much every other card in the deck. Crucible can be used to its fullest potential in this deck, plus a deck relying on making it into the late game with so many wastelands in the format makes this an auto-include. Wastelocks, unlimited blockers, and never missing a land drop are all good options.

In Closing, I would like to conclude that this deck is all about card advantage and inevitability. All your cards should be related to these two concepts. I see a lot of people in this thread nit-pick single cards without thinking about this decks overall game plan. I really believe that Yan's list from Goyf-Walk is the closest to optimal. The raw power of this deck is unparalleled. And has the capability to beat any deck.

I wish I could contribute something to the deck, but I feel that Yan's last list is hard to significantly be improved upon. Of course it can and should be tweaked to different meta-games, some thing like helix for Fire and Ice/electrolyze where you don't expect much zoo, and expect a lot of control, or maybe Volcanic Fallout for Wing Shards if you expect 10/10's and 12/12's, but I'd hate to drop VF in fear of Gobbos.

Good day.

Pelikanudo
10-05-2009, 04:17 PM
Well I'm plannin an approach about the deck, but mainly the different is the inclusion of green.
The main idea was : Iwant to make a control deck with those great planeswalker and intending to keep the same late game as standstill withouth standstill. Well here it is :

4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 counterspell
4 Ancestral Vision
2 Jace Beleren
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Pernicius deed
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Cunning Wish
4 Spellsnare

4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Plains
3 Dust Bowl
1 Academy Ruins
2 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
1 Savannah


// Sideboard:
SB: 3 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 The black trap
SB: 1 Krosan grip
SB: 1 Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt

SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Diabolic edict
1 Fact or fiction
etc.


The main idea is the inclusion of the 6 best planeswalker (apart from great tez)
and greatly pernicius is the best suit for them . sure this is not landstill , but sigergy between all them is great . also pernicius replace explosives in such a way.
Also its tru our mana base, but not worse than another deck with much more colorless producers..

Finally I miss brainstorm but configurations with em can also be perfomed I test the othe first,

lso D.Biowl is great replacin that card advantage
Ig2g see you

Nidd
10-05-2009, 04:22 PM
Don't play Garruk. He's not that great. Ajani is much better in this deck.
His tokens are neat and his ultimate is definitely a killer, but building an army with Garruk alone is too much of a hazzle when you also plan on using his ultimate. That's the good thing about Elspeth: She gets +1 when she creates a token, Garruk pays for doing so.
And I don't think you need the ramp Garruk gives.

But keep G in there for Goyfs and a wish-able Krosan Grip.

Esper3k
10-05-2009, 05:18 PM
Deed is really tempting, but it makes you have to play both Black and Green, making you really a 4 color deck with a pretty shaky manabase.

I had such high hopes that Sorin Markov would be great so that Black may become viable in this deck, but guess we have to keep waiting.

DukeDemonKn1ght
10-05-2009, 05:33 PM
*list

Three Dust Bowl plus zero Crucible of Worlds = NOMBO!!!!

Esper3k
10-05-2009, 06:31 PM
I'm always so tempted by Sarkhan Vol in this deck too.

To me, he seems to be the Planeswalker that reaches his ultimate fastest combined with an ultimate that will actually end the game quickly.

Sadly, his colors and other abilities aren't good for the deck (although I could see his +1 ability being useful with Elspeth).

gustha
11-03-2009, 09:56 AM
I'm considering bringing somethign similar to Ultimate Walker to sunday's tournament. The meta is good for landstill and for slower control decks like White Stax, but canadian has the reach too. Expecting merfolks, gobbos, bant (those being the large part of the field), along with zoo), some tempo thresh, iona reanimator, some rock, I hope about 60-70 players.

I have shared some ideas with klaus on the build of UW, and I'm more leaned towards his conception of the deck. This morning I woke up and decided I wanted to add another jace MD, and I cut and paste cards and finally came up to this odd mix. Testing, and F3lix's appropriate considerations on the deck, proved brainstorm and top (card quality) to be absolutely not needed campared to the quantity given by jace and vision. Cutting brainstorm left some open slot for wish and crucible, and so I decided to switch from d blow to wasteland. Non top means no sb counterbalance.

// Lands (24)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
3 [R] Tundra
2 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [R] Plateau
3 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [ZEN] Mountain
3 [4E] Mishra's Factory
2 [TE] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [FUT] Tolaria West

// Spells
4 [TSP] Ancestral Vision
3 [M10] Jace Beleren
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [RAV] Lightning Helix
3 [SHM] Firespout
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [EX] Forbid
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
1 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [U] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [TE] Capsize
SB: 1 [M10] Negate

Considerations, doubts.
-manabase: tri-colored manabase. Only 5 fetch, basic mountain so 1 less crucible needed (though I miss the second for wastelock...). Only 5 fetch? Shuffle effects are useless because of no brainstorm/top, so it's maybe better to have 1 more basic than 1 more fetch. Double blu is important to start, otherwise I should consider the split 1 arid mesa 1 scalding tarn. The rest is pretty intuitive, I don't like so much having only 3 volcanic islands.
-removal: preferred firespout in place of humility (better vs faster decks, crushes goblins as well as merfolks, zoo; useful against tempo thresh and maybe bant, useless vs dreadstill). Preferred vedalken shackles upon the 4th helix.
-doubts: i want the 2nd forbid and the 2nd crucible. No. I want the 2nd crucible (I may go up to 61). I'd also want the 2nd forbid, but the 2nd forbid calls the 2nd crucible, and then it would be 62 cards. Somebody help me?

Sideboard: 4 mage 4 relic 3 blast 1 pulse = untouchable.
-dismantling blow: the kicker is barely needed here. I'm considering return to dust and ray of distortion, though maybe fracturing gust would be a good metacall. Undecided.
-capsize: i want a way out if they reanimate iona and name white. Could be useful against other things too...
-negate: not really fond of this... help me find something :) Maybe the 2nd forbid?!?

Darkenslight
11-03-2009, 12:18 PM
Spell Pierce in the Negate slot? It'll usually do what you want Negate to do at one less mana.

nodahero
11-03-2009, 12:58 PM
Perhaps someone on here could give a list of the various builds and the type of meta they are aimed at destroying? Most people have issues picking out what build is right for their meta... As an extension of that idea we could create a list of card choices and basically explain what they are good against and bad against and then allow people to make their own variations with at least some understanding of each cards options. An example for this was provided to me by a friend who asked why a shackles over a 4th Helix. Beyond Goyf I had no real reason actually. Perhaps you guys could elaborate on some of your individual card choices.

gustha
11-03-2009, 01:26 PM
I'd really like to go up to 61 cards for another slot, and I'm undecided what to add: nothing? 4th helix? 2nd crucible? It is not needed for the stability of the manabase, but would help with the wastelock. Dunno.
I personally like vedalken shackles as it is a RE.RE.RE.: reusable recurrable removal, synergystic with lots of stuff in the deck, and really acts as a wincondition along with elspeth, ajani and crucible. I find it less random than the singleton decree, and is a stable wincondition vs: mirror, merfolks, bant/thresh (if you keep pridemage off the table). Has a shot vs redbased aggro too, less useful maybe. I feel I'm much more protected in the early game than yan's list. For his list, that 4th helix is truly important, because it's like a time walk to the lategame. For me, firespout already acts as this timewalk (1 or 2, actually), so I may not "need" the 4th helix (though it is a strong card...).
The meta my list is headed to is described in the first 2 lines of the post, hope it serves. I share the questions of nodahero, though, and ask a further question to answer: why playing ultimate walker over, said UWx landstill? (I have, ofc, my personal answer, but I'd like to hear Enigma's opinion: we want the MU-analysis finished! :laugh: )

Tinefol
11-03-2009, 02:01 PM
By any means add 2nd Ajani. Its that good. I've tried to cut one for Decree and missed it the whole day. Decree was horrible, even despite that I played 2 Crucibles.

chains
11-03-2009, 05:02 PM
Round 4, Red Sligh

What should I do against Sligh / Burn? I just couldn't do anything before getting burned out (2x Price of Progress in Game 1 and everything else in game 2). Even a wished Pulse of the Fields didn't do enough, with only 2 plains on the battlefield. Any suggestions to beating these matchups? A fellow landstill player suggested a single CoP:Red for tutoring.

Yeah, I have one: Sphere of Law (http://magiccards.info/od/en/50.html).

If you want to delay the Sligh/Burn (or even goblins maybe?) rush, I think this is the way to go, even though in my meta this Burn variants is not that often.

whiteshepherdman
11-03-2009, 05:21 PM
I find baneslayer angel to be good against Zoo and their burns when i'm playing landstill. Perhaps it would work in ultimate walker for you too. I run 1 copy in my SB

Tacosnape
11-03-2009, 07:12 PM
This is a bit off the wall, but has anyone tried Porphyry Nodes in this deck? The delay sucks, but the ability to get rid of 2-3 creatures for a single white in a deck that can stall well with Factory, Vengeant, and Ice seems tasty to me. Additionally, Nodes commits the opponent to a strategy: Either win with the rush -now-, or hold back, let Nodes sweep the board, disappear, and re-deploy. It seems that you could benefit from either one; The opponent having to overcommit, or the multiple turns to establish greater control of the game.

It's also horrible with an Elspeth out, but once you've got the Elspeth engine going, do you care?

F3lix
11-04-2009, 03:04 AM
I'd really like to go up to 61 cards for another slot, and I'm undecided what to add: nothing? 4th helix? 2nd crucible? It is not needed for the stability of the manabase, but would help with the wastelock. Dunno.
I personally like vedalken shackles as it is a RE.RE.RE.: reusable recurrable removal, synergystic with lots of stuff in the deck, and really acts as a wincondition along with elspeth, ajani and crucible. I find it less random than the singleton decree, and is a stable wincondition vs: mirror, merfolks, bant/thresh (if you keep pridemage off the table). Has a shot vs redbased aggro too, less useful maybe. I feel I'm much more protected in the early game than yan's list. For his list, that 4th helix is truly important, because it's like a time walk to the lategame. For me, firespout already acts as this timewalk (1 or 2, actually), so I may not "need" the 4th helix (though it is a strong card...).
The meta my list is headed to is described in the first 2 lines of the post, hope it serves. I share the questions of nodahero, though, and ask a further question to answer: why playing ultimate walker over, said UWx landstill? (I have, ofc, my personal answer, but I'd like to hear Enigma's opinion: we want the MU-analysis finished! :laugh: )

I play 61 and it's been treating me well. I personally find that lightning helix is one of the most important cards in this deck in this format because it can take care of threats and buy you time, which you need. Crucible is good as well, especially with wastelands around. With it on the table, your fetchlands become godlike, and factories can block for days, but ultimately I think the 4 helix is better here, though both would be optimal.

Shackles are can be good with the right mana base, but is usually more of a late game threat with the way this deck plays lands and I believe that we already have enough late game threats more powerful.

Also, is firespout really better than Humility. I supposed is can be in the zoo/gobbo MU, but Humility is an outright hoser in most the the DTB.

Think about what a resolved Humility can do: Pretty much autowin against TT(force them to stall until they find wipe away), Makes Dreadnaught a 2 card combo mons goblin raider, hoses reanimator/NO decks, it makes your factory able to kill anything, stops bob, stop creature based combo decks, etc.

I believe it is a pillar of the deck, it warps the state of all creatures in a way that this deck can capitalize on. It combos directly with mishras factory, elspith, and indirectly with your burn and 0ften resulting in a long lasting Jace.

gustha
11-04-2009, 05:23 AM
I play 61 and it's been treating me well. I personally find that lightning helix is one of the most important cards in this deck in this format because it can take care of threats and buy you time, which you need. Crucible is good as well, especially with wastelands around. With it on the table, your fetchlands become godlike, and factories can block for days, but ultimately I think the 4 helix is better here, though both would be optimal. Shackles are can be good with the right mana base, but is usually more of a late game threat with the way this deck plays lands and I believe that we already have enough late game threats more powerful.

Also, is firespout really better than Humility. I supposed is can be in the zoo/gobbo MU, but Humility is an outright hoser in most the the DTB.

Think about what a resolved Humility can do: Pretty much autowin against TT(force them to stall until they find wipe away), Makes Dreadnaught a 2 card combo mons goblin raider, hoses reanimator/NO decks, it makes your factory able to kill anything, stops bob, stop creature based combo decks, etc.

I believe it is a pillar of the deck, it warps the state of all creatures in a way that this deck can capitalize on. It combos directly with mishras factory, elspith, and indirectly with your burn and 0ften resulting in a long lasting Jace.I finally got up to 61 with the 2nd crucible., too much of an important card for this deck: not only for the light number of fetches, but more for a mana denial plan along with ajani. But games are still to be done, though. Chances I'll change my mind. I chose shackles over a 2nd ajani, or the 4th helix if you wish, because I plan to see lots of fast aggro and aggrocontrol. That's why I upped the snares to 4 and left the 2nd forbid in the sb. That's also why I chose firespout over humility: humility is absolutely wrecking g1, but at t4 hits daze and at that time I want to board a little clear. Firespout = wrath of god for any tribal/zoo MU, left aside tarmo which we have other answers for. So yes, in a meta like this, firespout is better than humility. Also, it serves the need to buy time, so basically the 4th helix is probably not needed (though i'd love to have that last copy, just to show my russian set ^^). Humility is good IF it lands, and in any case post-sb is weakened by grips etc. Firespout does nothing against tarmo or dreadnought, but EE and plowshares are good as well.

Shackles: it's more of an anti-aggrocontrol card, imagine a 1/1 split between ajani (taps the threat) and shackles (steal the threat): I've tuned the list more vs faster aggros, and sacrificed humility for firespout which I think is more performant in the meta I supposed to face. Shackles is nuts against bant countertop etc... wherever a goyf is, shackles is too. Is nuts against merfolk (not an autowin, but hard times for merfolk players, and is an out to needle on EE), nuts in the mirror (steals mishra), nuts against any white-based deck, good vs DS too, meat for forbid in other cases. So firespout to deal with zoo/tribal > humility, and when I would have have humility, I use shackles instead. That's obviously a meta call...

Teuras
11-06-2009, 12:50 AM
I played this deck at the Finnish Legacy-Champions last weekend. Changed the deck to more of a Landstill build the day before the tournament by changing Forbids and Firespouts to Counterspells and Wrath of Gods.

The Deck:
Lands 24:
2 Island
2 Plans
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
1 Plateau
2 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West

Planeswalkers 5:
2 Jace Beleren
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Ajani Vengeant

Spells 32:
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Humility
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Helix
2 Wrath of God
2 Cunning Wish
1 Decree of Justice
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Enlightened Tutor (card number 61).

Sideboard:
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Wing Shards
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Path to Exile
2 Negate
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus

There was 89 players so 7 rounds. I didn't take very good notes. But I'll write the match-ups and some things I remember about the games. Also sorry about not taking down anyone name - I'm terrible with names to faces.

Round 1: RGWB-Zoo (a quiet kid, lost to him last year when I was playing Ichorid)
Game 1: He is able to get me down to 6 life before I get down a Humility to make his creatures useless. Three Lightning Helixes get me back up with my health and 4 resolved Ancestral Visions get me a nice amount of counters. Elspeth kills him in the end.

Sideboarding: No notes but I put in BEB and Pulse of the Fields.
Game 2: I keep getting answers for his Confidants and Tarmos. Then he makes a wierd play. I'm at 4 lands + 2 fetches. He is at two lands without white as I wastelanded his Savannah. He plays an Ankh of Mishra O_o Sure he doesn't need more than 2 mana for his deck but... I let him resolva a Jitte - which turns into a Play creature - next turn equip - attack - I bolt/Sword it. I top deck the Pulse at around 13 life. Let him get me down to 5 before I just keep jumping back over 10 life. Elspeth tokens seal the dead again.

2-0

Round 2: Dreadstill (This is against one of my group players Roope, we considered just Drawing the game but decided its not worth it this early in the Rounds).
Game 1: He Mulliganed down to 6. But is able to get Counter-Top into play and I'm not able to find answers to it before I die to Mishra's and Tinkering Mage.

Sideboard: In 4 Red Elemental Blasts

Game 2: He isn't able to find a Dreadnought in this game either. Time is called with me having Turn 0. Him at 11 life me at 14. He has a Mishra's Factory and Tinkering Mage. I have 2 Mishra's Factories. On my Turn 2 I'm able to resolve a Elspeth - one Mishra flying over for 6 damage taking him down to 5. His Turn 3 he thinks for a while, then attacks with everything - leaving me open to kill him next turn ^^

1-1

Round 3: Bant-Survival (Against a guy I've played against before on several occasions, Henri if I remember correctly)
Game 1 & 2: Not much to say about these games, one game he doesn't get lands and the other game he only gets lands >_<

2-0

Round 4: Dont know the name of this deck, Dread-Stifle combo with the green-Hideaway land and Protean Hulks with Counter-backup.
Game 1: I'm not sure what the deck does - so I keep swording and Bolting his creatures getting him up to 31 life (twice). I get and Elspeth and Mishra up and start beating him down to 14. He is able to resolve a Pithing Needle on my Elspeth - to which I have an Enlightened Tutor to fetch for a EE during my upkeep. But this was where I made a stupid mistake by not looking at my mana - while searching for the EE I decide that Humility should win me the game by stopping his large creature, so I get that instead. Only to notice I only have one white mana untapped - and he Thoughtseizes me on his turn taking the Humility >_< I die to a Dreadnought + Protean Hulk going from 20-2-0 life.

Sideboard: Cant remember other than maindecking Dismantling Blow and the Path.

Game 2: I get an opening hand with Dismantling Blow, Swords, Counterspell, Island, Academy Ruins, Wasteland and Ancestral Vision. I decide to keep as I'm sure I will be able to draw a white mana land. I dont draw any whitemana producing lands during the next 4 turns... And he plays a second turn Dreadnought. 20-8-0. I fail...

0-2

Round 5: Dreadstill (Also against a player from my group, Ville who is at 2-2)
Game 1: He has total control going down one life from a Force to 19. Me slowly dying to a Factory.

Sideboard: In 4 REB out Helixes
Game 2: I have total control killing him with a Factory.

Game 3: This game was closer but I was able to kill him in the end. He wasn't able to resolve a single Dreadnought in any of the games.

2-1

Round 6: UWBG-Landstill
Game 1&2: Not much to say - he was simply just a much better player than me. Second game he gets an early Loam/Dust Bowl combo running and me never seeing more than 2 basic lands.

Sideboard: In 4 REB out Helixes

0-2

At this point I dropped with a 3-2-1. I would have had to win rounds 6&7 to be able to get into Top 8. Oh well, maybe next year ^^

Dont think I would change much in the deck. Only card that was underperforming was Lightning Helix - but it did shine in the Zoo matchup (just as it was supposed to). Also think Wrath of God was a better choice than Firespout - at least when looking at what decks I was paired against.

whiteshepherdman
11-08-2009, 01:38 AM
Another answer to the burn matchup question is, I've never tested this but it could be interesting to run Ivory tower in the board. I think a potential turn 1 ivory tower could do a lot more than pulse though you won't be able to tutor tower if you run cunning wish in your build


Just seems like some left field tech that could be potentially good and unexpected =). I was just sitting there shuffling some cards at my computer and this idea clicked

Tinefol
11-18-2009, 02:45 PM
Played the deck in 36 people tourney the other day. Went in with that list:

// Lands
4 [R] Tundra
2 [U] Volcanic Island
1 [A] Plateau
2 [ALA] Island (1)
2 [RAV] Plains (4)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [MM] Dust Bowl

// Spells
4 [TSP] Ancestral Vision
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [4E] Counterspell
3 [M10] Jace Beleren
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
3 [CFX] Path to Exile
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [A] Wrath of God
2 [TE] Humility
1 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives

What got cut? Crucible. Easiliy the weakest card there. Perhaps Forbid changes the experience, but I just don't own any.

So a short report.

Round 1. MonoW Kithkins.
Both games went through the same route - I managed to get a couple of 2 or 3 for 1 exchanges with Explosives and Wrath, stabilised at 11 and at 8 life, resolved Visions/Jace, dropped Elspeth and won.
2-0

Round 2. UGWB Faeries.
Game 1. I keep a shaky hand without force, or explosives and quickly get overwhelmed by Blossom + Jitte.
Game 2. I remove goyf, confidant, Snare his blossom, EE away Jitte + Sprite and when just win with planeswalkers.
Game 3 went much in the same fashion, I remember wishing for Return to Dust on his Blossom.
2-1

Round 3. MonoB Rat pack.
His creatures are no match to factories, he's clogged on 2cc slot (EE rocks there) and eventually I just get in there with multiple visions to overcome his discard. Game 2 involved Ajani's ultimate, where he just scooped in.
2-0

Round 4. Natural Order Survival Elves.
Game 1 he never gets the chance to do anything disruptive, as I just counter/remove everything.
Game 2 I counter early survival, then Tsunami, but he manages to resolve a second one, which doesn't actually set me back that much (I only lost 2 lands, having 2 in hand), then I drop Humility and he just concedes when my Ajani goes to 8.
2-0

Round 5 and 6: ID.

Top8. Same guy with Natural Order Survival Elves.
Game 1, isn't much different from the previous two.
Game 2, he shows a pretty nutty hand with Survival (forced), Tsunami (countered), second Tsunami (which gets there), Natural Order for Progenitus. I manage to Wrath away the beast, but I'm on one life, with a Wish in hand (aimed at Pulse), but no blue source. Guess what, I topdeck 3 fetchlands, he gets in with some mana elf.
Game 3 is tough again. He manages to cast Survival, but I'm able to slow him down with Relic. My Humility gets gripped, and after some time I'm low on life. I try to stall the things with Elspeth and Wish->Pulse, but he attempts to explode with Survival. I'm forced to blow Relic to get rid of his Squee and he's one turn short of Mirror Entity infinite combo. I rip off second Humilty from topdeck, proceed with Elspeth's ultimate, cast second Elspeth, and just win from there.
2-1

Top4. Aggro Loam
Game 1. I lose to not drawing enough removal (really, only one sword). When I get Wrath to clear the board, he got me down to 4 and just burnt out with Assault.
Game 2 we fight over my Needle on Wasteland (O-ring/EE away/O-ring), and it appears he doesn't have Grips (O-Ring instead). I cast second Needle on Wasteland, so his wastelock plan fails. A bit later I land Humility, and after a while I deck him with Visions while he was dredging/cantripping hard, trying to find his 3rd ring (his Knight would've been like 20/20 at the time).
Game 3. I get enough removal and my trio of Planeswalkers just gets there, while he isn't able to dredge due to my Relic.
2-1
Top2. UW Landstill. Its late and we split.

keidot
12-06-2009, 08:11 PM
In preparation for the SCG 5k in Los Angeles on Jan. 3rd, my friends and I have been building a test gauntlet and been throwing decks through it to see what would do well. At first, I started with a somewhat traditional UWb Landstill deck list but after many rough match-ups (due to either the deck, my ability as a pilot or the match-up in general), I made the transition to Walker. What I've been testing for the past few days is this.

// Lands
2 [REW] Wasteland
3 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
4 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Volcanic Island
2 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [B] Plateau
2 [UNH] Plains
2 [UNH] Island
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Spells
3 [FNM] Fire/Ice
4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
1 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
2 [LRW] Jace Beleren
3 [REW] Lightning Helix
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [JGC] Decree of Justice
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [TE] Humility
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [FNM] Isochron Scepter
4 [DD2] Ancestral Vision
2 [LRW] Cryptic Command
2 [JGC] Cunning Wish

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [FNM] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 1 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor

Spell Pierces have been much more useful than Spell Snare has been in the past. In regards to the Decks to Beat, it improves match-ups against Landstill and ANT. For other common decks, it helps improve dredge by disabling early discard effects and helps to stop their Dread Return on critical creatures. The Cryptic Commands are a recent addition that replaced Forbid. I found myself generally needing more utility like bounce and I found that while the buyback on Forbid is amazing, I don't feel that I can generate enough draw consistently to utilize this effect when it is needed. For that reason, I felt that the tempo generated by Cryptic would do more than what Forbid could do for me. My 61st card is Isochron Scepter and it's been too funny to take out and replace with something else. Some decks are just unable to deal with a resolved Scepter with Helix, Fire/Ice or Swords attached.

The only real big question in my mind is Wasteland versus Dust Bowl. I understand the usages and reasons for each but I'm still on the fence on them. Playing Dust Bowl opens up the possibility of playing Electrolyze instead of Fire/Ice but leaves my Isochron Scepter with fewer options to set-up with. Fire/Ice is a fantastic utility card but since this deck lacks a large amount of deck manipulation versus Landstill, I would enjoy being able to mitigate that fact with Can-tripping cards.

Any comments, critiques, questions or queries would be appreciated.

nodahero
12-06-2009, 10:06 PM
I have not used Ultimate Walker to much as of late due to a recent metagame shift at my college but I still do play with it so as to stay minimally sharp at worst.

One of the key things to consider when building a Walker list is your expected metagame. Cunning Wish is a cop out card for those who have no meta predictions... It is better to admit this then to guess blindly however.

I would personally cut the Wish's for some form of utility removal (Firespout or EE come to mind as good options).

As for Wasteland and Dust-bowl... Here again is a meta call.

Personally I would prepare for an aggro meta game and as such pack wasteland and firespout instead of dust bowl and cunning wish.

arebennian
12-17-2009, 11:34 AM
2UU
Planeswalker - Jace
Loyalty - 3

[+2]: Look at the top card of target player's library. You may put that card at the bottom of his or her library.
[-0]: Draw 3 cards, then put 2 cards from your hand on the top of your library in any order.
[-1]: Return target creature to its owner's hand.
[-12]: Exile all cards from target player's library. That player then shuffles their hand into their library.

nodahero
12-17-2009, 12:29 PM
Sadly as busted as the new Jace is he simply wont make the cut in Legacy.The major issue with Jace is that it takes 6 turns to finish the game assuming you just ramp up over and over and your opponent doesnt screw with him at all Jace is mildly good with Top to be sure but... Other than that he is sorta lacking.

The ability to cast brainstorm is sick but he gets raped by bolts which is a pain.

Unsummon does not do much in this format except against one threat decks like Geddon Stax, Reanimator, and to a lesser degree Agrro Loam.

hjalte
12-17-2009, 03:16 PM
Sadly as busted as the new Jace is he simply wont make the cut in Legacy.The major issue with Jace is that it takes 6 turns to finish the game assuming you just ramp up over and over and your opponent doesnt screw with him at all Jace is mildly good with Top to be sure but... Other than that he is sorta lacking.

The ability to cast brainstorm is sick but he gets raped by bolts which is a pain.

Unsummon does not do much in this format except against one threat decks like Geddon Stax, Reanimator, and to a lesser degree Agrro Loam.
But how come Jace Beleren is played then? He doesn't even win you the game, except in the control mirror.
At first glance, I think he's superior to Jace Beleren, but I'm not sure how much his 4cc will affect that opinion.

Enigma
12-17-2009, 03:41 PM
Sadly as busted as the new Jace is he simply wont make the cut in Legacy.The major issue with Jace is that it takes 6 turns to finish the game assuming you just ramp up over and over and your opponent doesnt screw with him at all Jace is mildly good with Top to be sure but... Other than that he is sorta lacking.
This card is not about winning the game by itself, it's all about finding the right answer or temporizing. I say its versatility will make him good enough for legacy decks.


The ability to cast brainstorm is sick but he gets raped by bolts which is a pain.
Bolt is only played in 2 decks and if you take Jace first ability, it cannot be bolted because you have priority and the +2 is part of the cost.


Unsummon does not do much in this format except against one threat decks like Geddon Stax, Reanimator, and to a lesser degree Agrro Loam.
It temporizes or bounce to counter it (best exemple is with CB where you do not lose card to bounce/counter).

Personaly, i find it way better than the old one.

P-M

Nidd
12-17-2009, 04:39 PM
But how come Jace Beleren is played then? He doesn't even win you the game, except in the control mirror.
At first glance, I think he's superior to Jace Beleren, but I'm not sure how much his 4cc will affect that opinion.
Supreme Blue adapted to the strategy of evading Cb by packing more 3cmc cards. Replacing Jace Beleren with the new Jace is an adaption to this ;)
And it also kinda helps to break the CB lock about which this deck doesn't care too much.

Hell, would you rather draw a card each turn or Brainstorm each turn? For me, the decision is easy.

from Cairo
12-17-2009, 11:11 PM
Sadly as busted as the new Jace is he simply wont make the cut in Legacy.The major issue with Jace is that it takes 6 turns to finish the game assuming you just ramp up over and over and your opponent doesnt screw with him at all Jace is mildly good with Top to be sure but... Other than that he is sorta lacking.

I agree it's differs from the accepted playable CMC 4 Planeswalkers, Elspeth and Ajani in the sense that they occupy a control/stability slot and then their ultimates (+ Elspeth's 2nd ability) double as win conditions. The new Jace, while not likely to fill a win condition slot, is a great stabilizing tool and a great means of card advantage.


The ability to cast brainstorm is sick but he gets raped by bolts which is a pain.

If you elect to use the personal draw ability on the OG Jace first activation it too gets raped by Lightning Bolt. The new Jace's plus ability is pretty weak, but the old one's plus ability wasn't spectacular either, both of them leave you gaining no card advantage over your opponent. On an open board I'd have no problem, scrying with the first activation, then Brainstorming every turn until board position changed.


Unsummon does not do much in this format except against one threat decks like Geddon Stax, Reanimator, and to a lesser degree Agrro Loam.

I think the Unsummon ability isn't too bad, keeping a Goyf permanently summoning sick is pretty solid. It forces your opponent to repeatedly expend resources (versus something like Zoo bouncing their CMC 3 guy, ties up alot of their mana and keeps them from further extending board position). It can also give you an additional chance to counter a resolved threat. It's not as universally good as Ajani's tap ability and Elspeth's chump blocker ability, but it's solid versus more of the field than I think you're giving it credit for.

I think the card will be good in similar situations to when the original Jace is good. In control versus control mirrors, or when the game is reaching a stable position, they both can serve as a means to put the game out of reach of one's opponent. I think the new Jace's abilities are better than the old one's but I'm not sure if it's casting cost is too prohibitive. It's not so much that 4 mana is too much, just that 4 mana- plus some sort of counter back up might be too much. Unlike Elspeth and Ajani, the new Jace can't be run out turn 4 while protecting itself against an on board threat and putting itself out of Bolt range all in one activation. It seems a bit rugged waiting til turn 5 for Spell Snare / Swords to Plowshares mana to be up, or turn 6 for Counterspell mana to be up, so one can either use the scry and put it to a safe 5 Loyalty or so one can use the Unsummon and have an answer to a burn spell.

LegacyDan
12-19-2009, 03:52 PM
I haven't honestly played this deck, but I have been keeping an eye on its development. I can say that the new Jace most likely will find a nice place in the deck. His ability to brainstorm every turn would just be fantastic for the deck.

hjalte
01-05-2010, 04:23 PM
I played a 37 man tourney this weekend, and went 3-2. I played the following list: (it's 61 cards, I know)

//Lands
3 Flooded strand
3 Scalding Tarn
4 tundra
1 Plateau
2 Volcanic island
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy ruins
1 plains
2 island
1 Mountain
4 Mishra's Factory

//Spells
2 Jace Beleren
2 Ajani Vengeant
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
4 Ancestral Visions
4 brainstorm
4 Force of will
4 Spell Snare
2 forbid
4 Swords to plowshares
2 firespout
3 Lightning helix
3 Engineere explosives
1 humility
1 enlightened tutor

//Sideboard
4 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Lightning Helix
1 Firespout
2 Red elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 jace beleren
1 aura of silence
It performed reasonably well. I have a ultrashort report, here's how it went.

Round 1 against ANT.
G1. I don't know what he's playing. My Force stops his first attempt to win, but i really can't make any pressure. He plays Angels grace, and turn his whole deck, so I obviously lose this one.
Fortunately he didn't see what I was playing, so he can't prepare well.
I board Blasts, and Canonists in, and board Swords out, if I remember correctly (I want to keep helix in, to burn him out if nescesary, or to save me from a "small" tendrils).
G2. I land factories and canonist and beat him down.
G3. I mull to 5, but I have a really bad hand (I have force though, but no pressure). He sculpts a hand and go off with angels grace and double pact.

Round 2 against goblins.
G1 is very long. He plays goblins I kill them and land a humility and walkers. But he keeps playing goblins which annoys me. Eventually I win.
I board firespout and lightning helix in. I can't remember what got out. Probably a single jace and a forbid.
G2: See game 1, but much much faster, as I quickly get ajani out, and protect him, and go for ultimate. GG.

Round 3 against pox.
I win 2 fast games. Not much to see here. Ajani is great, by the way, to stop those nasty tombstalkers.
I board in graveyard hate, as he plays crucible and manlands.

Round 4. GRw Natural Order
G1, He plays noble hierarchs, birds of paradise and other small green men, which I burn, because I suspect he's playing NO, and was right. I keep burning his guys, and countering two natural order. I'm unable to apply any sort of pressure, eventually he baits my forbid with his own Ajani Vengeant, and land a natural order into progenitus.
I board Helix in, Jace goes out.
G2, My counters and burn does it's job, and this time I apply pressure and win.
G3, same as game 2.

Round 5. Goblins once more.
G1, I keep a hand packed with removal but no explosives or force. He lands a Vial and go nuts. I can't do much about that.
I board as
G2, As game one, except I have an explosives for his first vial, and he doesn't see matron or ringleader before I land a humility.
G3, Goes as game 2, but I doesn't find another white source (or more than 4 lands), other than my Tundra, even though I play 3 brainstorm, and resolve an Ancestral Vision. He wastes my tundra (I didn't see any mana denial in the two other games, so I didn't fetch basics). Then he goes nuts. The game where something like 10 turns, and only 4 lands. The only time I got mana screwed, and that cost me a place in top8.


There are some odd choices in the deck. The night before the tourney, the deck had 3 top and Shackles instead of 4 brainstorm. That meant, that ETutor could fetch Top, Shackles and Humility, and Aura of Silence out of the board. When we tested more thoroughly (not just my testing on MWS), I simply had too few blue sources, so top and shackles (which felt like the weakest card) got cut for brainstorms. I didn't have two humility for the maindeck, so I decided just to run the tutor anyway.

I was inspired by klaus to run counterbalance in the sideboard, but as I removed Top from the maindeck, I turned to canonist instead, which proved very good, the one time it hit play.


What I'm sure of is, that Helix is a very very good card. I will never go below 2 of those, but I do think It's nescesary to go to 3 spouts instead of 2, we really need enough sweepers to live to the lategame.

I will also never go below 2 Ajani. They're that good. I haven't tried Spell Pierce, but I really want to, Spell Snare didn't hit anything in the combo matchup, but againts the two goblindecks, Snare was probably better (I countered Instigator quite a lot with it). I do like the idea, however, that Spell Pierce hits something else than 2CC.

I chose to run a basic mountain because I have quite a lot of red in the deck, and it's often crucial to use those spells. Tolaria west was only good sometimes, I'm not sure it's good enough to keep, at least not without adding another land. I opted not to play wasteland as I did not play Crucible. I think that was a mistake though.

I will post a list when I have time to refine my list, given my experiences from the weekend. Any other suggestions would be very welcome.

GoldenCid
02-12-2010, 06:46 PM
What got cut? Crucible. Easiliy the weakest card there. Perhaps Forbid changes the experience, but I just don't own any.



Maybe you have too many 4cc spells...haven't you?? Congrats.

SilverGreen
02-13-2010, 10:11 PM
I have playing a new take on this at Magic-League since yesterday. Today I played around 30-35 matches, during all day long and with the last list unchanged, and I need to say, I'm really impressed with it. It's a straight UW list, I dropped Ajani and the old Jaces in order to fit the new Jace the Hype-Worthy, and man, he's RIDICULOUSLY BAH-ROKEN paired with shufflers and counter backup. It isn't without a reason the pros and "pros" are going nuts with this card in their articles. When you get an untap with him on the table, you simply don't lose anymore! Dude, this card's ridiculous, put it in a list of your own and try it by themselves. My current UW list looks like:

// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [WWK] Celestial Colonnade
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ZEN] Island (3)
3 [ZEN] Plains (1)
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [R] Tropical Island
3 [B] Tundra
1 [B] Volcanic Island
2 [TE] Wasteland

// Spells
4 [TSP] Ancestral Vision
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [TE] Humility
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
1 [10E] Wrath of God
2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
2 [M10] Harm's Way
2 [M10] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [WWK] Dispel
SB: 4 [WWK] Kor Firewalker
SB: 2 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt


And how are you going with WWK available? I'm fully convinced that set is the breath of fresh air this deck was asking for a long time!

nodahero
02-14-2010, 02:24 PM
Not to toot my own horn or anything but I definetly think this thread and the Punishing Gifts thread could learn benefit from bouncing around differnt options together. I have tested both of these decks extensively and they play a relatively similar game actually under the surface.

One thing I have noted about Legacy at the moment is how unprepared the meta game is for Punishing Fire and Grove of the Burnwillows. Those cards can decimate other decks. They provide unparalled consistency. Unless your opponent has Counterbalance and Top active those two cards will always get there.

Kangaxx
02-14-2010, 02:28 PM
I have playing a new take on this at Magic-League since yesterday. Today I played around 30-35 matches, during all day long and with the last list unchanged, and I need to say, I'm really impressed with it. It's a straight UW list, I dropped Ajani and the old Jaces in order to fit the new Jace the Hype-Worthy, and man, he's RIDICULOUSLY BAH-ROKEN paired with shufflers and counter backup. It isn't without a reason the pros and "pros" are going nuts with this card in their articles. When you get an untap with him on the table, you simply don't lose anymore! Dude, this card's ridiculous, put it in a list of your own and try it by themselves. My current UW list looks like:

// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [WWK] Celestial Colonnade
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ZEN] Island (3)
3 [ZEN] Plains (1)
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [R] Tropical Island
3 [B] Tundra
1 [B] Volcanic Island
2 [TE] Wasteland

// Spells
4 [TSP] Ancestral Vision
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [TE] Humility
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
1 [10E] Wrath of God
2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
2 [M10] Harm's Way
2 [M10] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [WWK] Dispel
SB: 4 [WWK] Kor Firewalker
SB: 2 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt


And how are you going with WWK available? I'm fully convinced that set is the breath of fresh air this deck was asking for a long time!

Why play Harm's Way over Path to Exile?

Arsenal
02-14-2010, 02:46 PM
I'm guessing because it can directly save your planeswalkers from any sort of trouble.

Kangaxx
02-14-2010, 02:56 PM
I'm guessing because it can directly save your planeswalkers from any sort of trouble.

Doesn't Path to Exile do the same thing with the exception of being a better card becuase it gets rid of the threat? Not every creature in the format has a power of 2 and burn is a minimal issue when you play countermagic.

Arsenal
02-14-2010, 08:03 PM
His countersuite won't counter much burn. Outside of FoW, Snare won't hit Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning/Lava Spike/etc. and Pierce is only 50/50 effective by the time you've actually dropped a planeswalker (turn 4-5).

I personally wouldn't play Harm's Way in a deck, but I suspect that's the reason behind it's maindeck inclusion.

F3lix
02-15-2010, 12:46 AM
I have playing a new take on this at Magic-League since yesterday. Today I played around 30-35 matches, during all day long and with the last list unchanged, and I need to say, I'm really impressed with it. It's a straight UW list, I dropped Ajani and the old Jaces in order to fit the new Jace the Hype-Worthy, and man, he's RIDICULOUSLY BAH-ROKEN paired with shufflers and counter backup. It isn't without a reason the pros and "pros" are going nuts with this card in their articles. When you get an untap with him on the table, you simply don't lose anymore! Dude, this card's ridiculous, put it in a list of your own and try it by themselves. My current UW list looks like:

// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [WWK] Celestial Colonnade
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ZEN] Island (3)
3 [ZEN] Plains (1)
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [R] Tropical Island
3 [B] Tundra
1 [B] Volcanic Island
2 [TE] Wasteland

// Spells
4 [TSP] Ancestral Vision
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [TE] Humility
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
1 [10E] Wrath of God
2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
2 [M10] Harm's Way
2 [M10] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [WWK] Dispel
SB: 4 [WWK] Kor Firewalker
SB: 2 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt


And how are you going with WWK available? I'm fully convinced that set is the breath of fresh air this deck was asking for a long time!

Where's the forbid? Forbid and CoW is your strongest late game defense. And are the Firewalkers really enough to shore up the zoo/gobbo game? I'm having a hard time imagining they are absolutely better then BFT. Sure, it can gain you some life, and maybe kill some creatures, but it cannot stop a T1 lackey and sometimes the life saved from a P2P might be more than gained with a Firewalker. I personally play 4 helix and an ajani along with factories, along with the staples and still the aggro MUs are tough so I'm just having a hard time imaging this deck beating aggro. Though perhaps you just have an odd meta, must be a lot of GY strategies with all you GY hate.

Where are the factories?

SilverGreen
02-15-2010, 05:41 AM
Paths are bad here, plain and simple. Only Zoo profitably makes use of it, and that's for a very specific reason, that doesn't apply to a control deck (in a format where you have StP available, at least). Harm's Ways are not StPs 5-6, they play a completely different role. They were included late and are doing fine, counters on Jace are translated into card advantage, as soon you'll realize. It also answers Lackeys and Bolts, for whom's worried about them.

Ajani and all Red complement were soon put away, with new Jace there's too much 4CC slots, and this one's abilities are amplified and better analogues to Ajani's. Brainstorm is back, and it + Visions + Jace + fetches provide all CA needed to respond threats in a 1-1 basis in a long game.

GY hate clogs the SB because attrition strategies overdues your card draw/selection. You won't get Visions, Humility or Jace online before Dredge kills you, and any Loam-based deck can be troublesome. Firewalker just buys you time until the other cards get online, and it's pretty good at it.

The aspect I liked the most in this UW list is the amount of cheap spells, in contrast with the 4CC gamebreakers. It's possible start playing control as soon as turn one, and when the game reaches the 2-3 spells-a-turn step, you pair it up, then refill. Brainstorm, Ponder and FoW are what always made Threshold variants good, and if a control deck can make good use of them, it may profit.

Which are your thoughts about Jace?

Mono_Thematic
02-19-2010, 09:47 AM
@Silvergreen
You're running a list not to dissimilar in approach to a UW list I dropped in the Quinn thread not to long ago. My version was more of a Permanent control style derived from the way MUC handles treats
I absolutely agree about the new Jace, he really is worth all the hype and makes slow control in Legacy possible once again. I hardly ever use his +2, -1, or -12 abilities as his brainstorm is just way too profittable. He's a must answer card, like Bob, only answering him is pretty hard in a deck packed with counters and chump-blockers (I used Elspeth and Mobilization)
I'm interested in how you're finding Harm's Way. Obviously a deck like this struggles in the early turns and a card like this is quite useful for that, but I always avoided it because I didn't think 2 damage/prevention was enough to make a difference. Could you elaborate on conditions when you found it to be particularly helpful?
-Mono (just a heads up, I will be stealing heavily from your list)

Magicjake
04-08-2010, 06:00 AM
4 stp
4 lightning helix
4 firesprout
12 removel

2 ajani
2 jace Mind
4 win

4 Brainstorm
4 FOW
4 Spell Pierce
4 Ancestral Vision
2 CoW
2 EE
20 Stuff

3 tundra
4 volcanic island
4 Mishra Factory
1 plateau
4 scalding tarn
1 arid mesa
1 academy ruin
3 wasteland
2 island
1 plain

klaus
04-08-2010, 06:46 AM
Here's what I'd change for a mixed meta:

"UWR Walkerstill"

4 stp
2 PtE (0)
2 lightning helix ( used to be 4)
3 firesprout (4)
3 EE ------------------------- (formerly 2)
(14 removal)

1 ajani ---------------------- (formerly 2)
2 Elspeth ------------------ (formerly 0)
2 Jace 2.0
(5 win cons)

4 Brainstorm
1 Sensei's Top
4 FOW
2 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare (used to be Spell Pierce)
4 Standstill ------------------- (formerly Ancestral Vision) - with Merfolk on the decline, Standstill has become strong again imo.
(18 Stuff)
(= 37)
---
3 scalding tarn
4 Flooded Strand (0)
3 tundra
2 volcanic island (4)
4 Mishras Factory
1 Plateau
1 Academy Ruins
1 Mountain
2 island
2 plain (1)
(23)

* I don't believe in control decks trying to establish a wastelock - you simply want to keep your land since it is more valuable to you than it is to aggro players. It's true that it does recur your Factories but you don't rely on them as win cons really.

SB:
2 Ray of Distortion
2 Path to Exile
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Spell Pierce
3 REB
-
That's roughly what I've been playing to reasonable success in the recent past.

from Cairo
04-08-2010, 11:57 PM
* I don't believe in control decks trying to establish a wastelock - you simply want to keep your land since it is more valuable to you than it is to aggro players. It's true that it does recur your Factories but you don't rely on them as win cons really.


IDK if the footnote was meant to support a lack of Crucible of Worlds or a lack of Wasteland; I can assume it's explaining the lack of the the combination of the two. In which case, I totally agree audibling to Wastelock as a goto win condition against aggro is risky; alot of the time the control player does get more out of their land. If Wastelock was all Crucible offered I'd definitely religate it to the Sideboard for control matches.

I think this card is often undervalued. Crucible is also rediculous virtual card advantage. Just using it to replay fetches every turn provides huge stability (ie: Thawing Glaciers). It improves top decks as you thin the deck out of X land drops, and any land you draw into in the mean time can sit in your hand, then be Brainstorm+Fetched away. Similarly it interacts great with Sensei's Divining Top, as one no longer needs to worry about getting land drops, they can pick the best of the top 3 cards, replay a fetch from the GY, fetch, and the following endstep set up again to draw the best of a new top 3 cards. Recurring Mishra's Factories can also be disruptive versus aggro, especially decks like Goblins where it doesn't need to get past summoning-sickness to trade with their guys.

IamPhil
04-09-2010, 01:34 AM
For those of you running Wasteland and Crucible, why not run one Ghost Quarters to nuke basics? Eventually they will run out...

nodahero
04-09-2010, 10:42 AM
Key word is EVENTUALLY. Ghost Quarter does nothing to immediately set back their development while still hindering yours. You should be running Wasteland well before Ghost Quarter.

IamPhil
04-09-2010, 02:21 PM
Key word is EVENTUALLY. Ghost Quarter does nothing to immediately set back their development while still hindering yours. You should be running Wasteland well before Ghost Quarter.

This is true. I thought GQ put the basic into play tapped providing a pre/post-combat respite in countermagic wars.

Morrodin
05-18-2010, 10:38 PM
So, i think this deck is really interesting, and was playing around with a slightly modified version of one of the older builds.

// Lands
3 [R] Tundra
1 [R] Underground Sea
2 [ROE] Island (1)
2 [ROE] Plains (1)
2 [TE] Wasteland
3 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
4 [HOP] Lightning Helix
2 [EX] Forbid
2 [TE] Humility
4 [DD2] Ancestral Vision
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
2 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
1 [LG] Moat
3 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ARB] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [MM] Misdirection
SB: 1 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [HOP] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [CFX] Volcanic Fallout


It performs decently, but I'm wondering if there's any changes that can be made to imporve the matchups against fast aggro decks. It seems lacking in that area.

nodahero
05-22-2010, 01:26 AM
Are you trying to shell up the game 1 against them? or are you trying to fix games 2 and 3 primarily?

Tacosnape
05-22-2010, 11:31 AM
So how exactly without maindecking Relic or splashing Black does this deck not get steamrolled by Reanimator?

Serious question. I've been playing a spinoff of this for three months now. Reanimator rolls me.

nodahero
05-24-2010, 09:50 AM
I suppose the old lists PROBABLY do get rolled by reanmiator although I could see a premptive Vengeant spelling problems for them unless they drop Inkwell... IDK though... If you wana work on a build to beat the current meta I am willing to give it another go... Its been a while since I picked up an old list to tweak.

klaus
05-24-2010, 01:54 PM
So how exactly without maindecking Relic or splashing Black does this deck not get steamrolled by Reanimator?

Serious question. I've been playing a spinoff of this for three months now. Reanimator rolls me.

I don't believe in maindecked gy.hate. I'd much rather lose all G1s against Reanimator, Loam.dec and Dredge and have a better shot at everything else than adding Relics.
Games two and three are actually rather favorable against Reanimator (and Dredge) imo.
My current gy.hate suite consists of 3 Faerie Macabre* and 2 Relics. REB is very useful, too, as it counters Carefulstudy, Mystical Tutor and the eventual FOW.

I believe FM. is the ultimate SB card atm. Until recently I thought it belonged into archetypes with fast clocks only, but I playing it in control shells changed my mind very soon.
With the rise of Reanimator, even Crypt has become too slow in some scenarios. It's true, FM spells card disadvantage - its benefits (speed, unpredictability) outweigh that aspect tenfold though.
Sure FM can be Needled like Relic, but it's still a less common choice and won'tl usually be named G2 if it didn't show before.
All I can say is give it a roll and see how it works for you.
Cheers.

Morrodin
05-24-2010, 10:20 PM
Are you trying to shell up the game 1 against them? or are you trying to fix games 2 and 3 primarily?

When I made the post I was thinking primarily post board. But I'll accept any and all tips. I'm pretty new to competitive legacy play.

DragoFireheart
06-09-2010, 04:18 PM
I have a couple questions about this deck:


1 - Are there any better draw spells besides Ancestral Vision?

2 - What version is currently the best one? UW? UWr? Some other combination?

3- For those running the UWr, why isn't Lightning Bolt ran?

Hanni
06-09-2010, 04:54 PM
1 - Are there any better draw spells besides Ancestral Vision?

Predict.


2 - What version is currently the best one? UW? UWr? Some other combination?

I'd say it's metagame dependant. I prefer U/W/b, but both U/W and U/W/r are good too.


3- For those running the UWr, why isn't Lightning Bolt ran?

Burn to an opponent's dome seems less relevant than stronger creature removal. I'd say both Swords and Path would get played before Lightning Bolt for that reason.

Hanni
06-09-2010, 06:17 PM
Treasure Hunt is horrible. With only a little over 1/3 of the deck being lands, you're statistically going to draw only 1 card nearly 60-ish% of the time. Drawing more than 2 is purely luck based, and occurs when you experience land floods only.

I run 4 Brainstorm, 4 Top, 2 Jace. That's 10 cards that allow me to get the draw 2. A turn 1 Top makes all of my Predicts draw 2's for the rest of the game. Predict is also a virtual draw 3, since it puts the shittiest card into the graveyard (similar to how Brainstorm + fetchland is a virtual draw 3). It's ability to hit cards put on top with Mystical Tutor is just a nice mostly irrelevant bonus, but that's still there. Predict isn't as strong as Standstill or Visions, but it's alot more consistent and I've been very satisfied running them. I also only run 3.

Hanni
06-09-2010, 06:28 PM
More than 2 Jace just seems overkill. I realize Predict sounds meh, but it's actually a really nice card. It could also be the way my build is, utilizing card advantage with other means like Counterbalance, and the fact that I run 4 Counterspells to make the instant speed of Predict relevant.

DragoFireheart
06-09-2010, 08:20 PM
More than 2 Jace just seems overkill. I realize Predict sounds meh, but it's actually a really nice card. It could also be the way my build is, utilizing card advantage with other means like Counterbalance, and the fact that I run 4 Counterspells to make the instant speed of Predict relevant.

What does your current list look like? You mentioned that you do a UWb version: I was curious as to what black cards you used. Also, have you ever had any color issues when trying to cast a Counterspell on turns 2 or 3 in the early game?

I originally scoffed at Predict since it only gives 3 cards compared to AV and Standstill, but it's an instant cast and since this deck runs Brainstorm, Jace and could run top, that seems like a lot of ways to draw more cards. It also get's you cards NOW, unlike AV or Standstill. You said that you run 3 Predicts: why only 3?

Hanni
06-09-2010, 08:44 PM
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [U] Tundra
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
4 [7E] Island (3)
2 [P3] Plains (2)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)

// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [OD] Predict
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [ST] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [BRB] Wrath of God
3 [JGC] Vindicate

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 4 [OD] Innocent Blood
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [HOP] Relic of Progenitus

The sideboard is a mess. The maindeck is solid.

I only run 3 Predict because I feel like 4 is too much. I don't need that much raw card draw, and with 4, I feel like I'll have times where I have it and no way to draw 2 from it (and unless I was desperate, I simply wouldn't cast it until it could draw 2). 3 just feels right, but that number hasn't been hammered at in testing so I could be wrong.

However, this is a very controversial build for both this thread and the Landstill thread, so that's probably more relevant than the correct number of Predicts.

DragoFireheart
06-09-2010, 08:52 PM
The sideboard is a mess. The maindeck is solid.

I only run 3 Predict because I feel like 4 is too much. I don't need that much raw card draw, and with 4, I feel like I'll have times where I have it and no way to draw 2 from it (and unless I was desperate, I simply wouldn't cast it until it could draw 2). 3 just feels right, but that number hasn't been hammered at in testing so I could be wrong.

However, this is a very controversial build for both this thread and the Landstill thread, so that's probably more relevant than the correct number of Predicts.


I don't really care for your build for a few reasons:

1- For the black Splash, it gives you Vindicate... and that's it. I would seem like splashing black would give you more, but your deck doesn't seem to take advantage of that. Vindicate is a nice card but for some reason it seems underwhelming. What has your testing shown.

2- The Counter-top combo seems... somewhat weak. Your CMC for 2 is low and you have a lot of 3s and 4s: wouldn't that make it hard to counter 2 CMC spells?

3- Your sideboard is a mess. :)

Hanni
06-09-2010, 10:13 PM
Why do I need any more out of a black splash than Vindicate? I used to run straight U/W but with all the Pridemages and stuff, Vindicate is just better. The ability to also hit lands can be huge in control mirrors, getting rid of nasties like Volrath's Stronghold and Academy Ruins. What other black spells would you expect to see?

My testing has shown that this deck is an absolute animal. I've had this same deck for about 2 years now, with very little differences. Before Jace, it was Decree with Standstills instead of Predicts, everything else was exactly the same. It was strong then, and stronger now.

It looks weak because you're looking at it on paper and comparing it to other decks like Bant that run Counterbalance. I was running 12 2cc spells for the longest time, and just recently dipped down to 11. Regardless, that's still more than enough to counter 2cc spells with.

The deck doesn't need to assemble a CounterTop lock as soon as possible because it's not a dedicated CounterTop deck. It has a ton of other control cards that do what a normal control deck wants to do regardless of CounterTop. Even if Counterbalance itself only counters 2 spells in a game, it's still +1 CA, which is what a control deck like this wants (CA). However, 11-12 2cc spells does in fact work with Counterbalance. I've won an absurd amount of games against bad matchups with CounterTop, like Burn and Aggro Loam, despite having a lower-than-your-average-Counterbalance-deck 2cc slot. I've tested it extensively and it works, even if it looks bad to you on paper. One reason this might be is that, as a dedicated control deck, the games go much longer, giving the deck more time to set up a Counterbalance lock in comparison with other Counterbalance decks. Who knows, but it works.

Yea, the sideboard is a mess. It used to be very solid, until the metagame shifted and I didn't really spend much time working on developing a strong sideboard. It's not bad though, it still addresses alot of things.

DragoFireheart
06-09-2010, 10:34 PM
Why do I need any more out of a black splash than Vindicate? I used to run straight U/W but with all the Pridemages and stuff, Vindicate is just better. The ability to also hit lands can be huge in control mirrors, getting rid of nasties like Volrath's Stronghold and Academy Ruins. What other black spells would you expect to see?


I lack access to black/blue lands at this time: any suggestions for a UW or UWr deck to fill the Vindicate slot?




My testing has shown that this deck is an absolute animal. I've had this same deck for about 2 years now, with very little differences. Before Jace, it was Decree with Standstills instead of Predicts, everything else was exactly the same. It was strong then, and stronger now.

It looks weak because you're looking at it on paper and comparing it to other decks like Bant that run Counterbalance. I was running 12 2cc spells for the longest time, and just recently dipped down to 11. Regardless, that's still more than enough to counter 2cc spells with.

The deck doesn't need to assemble a CounterTop lock as soon as possible because it's not a dedicated CounterTop deck. It has a ton of other control cards that do what a normal control deck wants to do regardless of CounterTop. Even if Counterbalance itself only counters 2 spells in a game, it's still +1 CA, which is what a control deck like this wants (CA). However, 11-12 2cc spells does in fact work with Counterbalance. I've won an absurd amount of games against bad matchups with CounterTop, like Burn and Aggro Loam, despite having a lower-than-your-average-Counterbalance-deck 2cc slot. I've tested it extensively and it works, even if it looks bad to you on paper. One reason this might be is that, as a dedicated control deck, the games go much longer, giving the deck more time to set up a Counterbalance lock in comparison with other Counterbalance decks. Who knows, but it works.



Alright, sounds good I suppose. I'll test it though I don't have any of the black duals so i'll have to do something else.


I have a couple other questions:

1- Why WoG over Humility?

2- What are your tough matchups?

3- A few walker builds use forbid but you don't. I also noticed that you don't use CoW. Why is that?