[Deck] Mono Green Chalice Aggro

[michaelq]

Originally Posted by Nelis
No experience with this deck whatsoever but has Sylvan Library (combined w fetch) not a place in this deck if that's a big problem?

Three tomb activations and a couple of fetches and you're basically looking at maybe one or two extra cards, max. It would be nice to stack your deck each turn.

[ryO!]

so finally ended up in a 2win 1real loss 2games gave away (i imo won those two last but w/e)

list was

list :
//creatures
[2x] Llanowar Elves
[2x] Fyndhorn Elves
[4x] Tarmogoyf
[2x] Wickerbough Elder
[3x] Orhan Viper
[4x] Elvish Spirit Guide
[3x] Scryb Ranger
//spells
[4x] Natural Order
[4x] Chalice of the Void
[4x] Trinisphere
[3x] Garruk Wildspeaker
[3x] Umezawa's Jitte
[1x] SoFI
[1x] Progenitus

//Land
[4x] Misty Rainforest
[8x] Forest
[4x] Ancient Tomb
[4x] Wasteland
//sb
[4x] Choke
[2x] Relic
[2x] Tormod's Crypt
[3x] Krosan
[3x] Snakeform

Ohran viper is a BLAST, definitely better than selkie and damn kills anything !
Scryb Ranger this is even better ... protection from blue > islanwalk, flying + equipment = free win, vigilance for all your creatures, untap llanoward for daze, eat RWM (hi, no lifelink) & Serendib !!
4 misty rainy well, never got stifled, but that still can happen and hurt, but i think it really stabilize the mana base + shuffle.
21 vs 20 land + one SofI, not rly sure about it, i mean each time the sofi came it was a blast but i also missed one land one or two times on the other hand i had severals land draws in a row so ... i think i like it like this.

about SB
mostly used 4 choke instead of 4 trini
or Snakeform instead of trini, and yeah snakeform is a damn nice card & usefull card. this vs the trap, i am not sure because i often sided it in and not only againt blue deck so i guess it can be usfull in more situations.

as i dont really remember everything there wont be too much details

G1 vs Bant 2-1
1 => aggro race i WIN
2 => i drew in a row NO, NO, NO, NO, Prog ...no land or w/e
3 => progenitus turn 3

G2 vs Bant progenitus contertop
1 => he progenitus turn 3 or 4
2 => Scryb + jitte
3 => game is at stake, i top deck NO so i prog, but he has a 4*exalted RWH and more life than me o wait who cares i got a scryb ranger ^^ so i can race him with prog.

G3 vs merfolk
1 => mulligan to 5, i got rushed + he has 2 fow 1 daze + turn 1 vial (in hand)
2 => mulligan to 6, i got rushed + he has 2 fow 1 daze again + turn 1 vial (top decked)
It should even be a good match up for me but no.. but i have to say it s a strong deck, as i first thought merfolk was crap.

G4 vs Rock
1 => i win the game but i say "ok u win g2", after that he said, hm wtf, YOU have won, he makes me realised that i ve missed 2 things (i was @ 1 life i guess i ve paniked, or even worse, i did EXACLTY the only thing that could save me and seal the game) and that i ve actually won the game. i didn't forget to do anything i just had simply won ... i guess i wasn't that concentrated ^^. he offers me the game but i say no, next time i ll think a bit more before speaking ^^.
2 => i keep a REALLY SHIT HAND, dont ask me why, only 1 land and it s a waste ... then no lands for 4 turns.
3 fake => we do a g3 so i don't regret, i win easy, i had a reliable hand this time. so yeah i do regret ^^.

G5 vs KoTR + many land + Elspeth
1 => he wins rushing me with a 9/9 Kotr Flying with elspeth
2 => progenitus turn 2 ^^
3 => i win, last turn, i draw too fast and forgot to pay for tabernacle, he doesn't offer to let me play back as quoting him "it's my only way to win". i am a bit pissed because last tour, a guy did the same mistake as me, i would have won the game and ended up 5th, but as i was losing the game, i let him play it again and i ofc lose. So i dont even think i just say who cares? i give him the game and leave. i had in hand enough to win the game anyway and i would have won it but i was really pissed (drama >).

so well 2w3l but it was 4win1loss if i were a bit more concentrated
this deck works damn well and i am pretty sure about the list and yeah i need to focus a bit more.

[Nelis]

You listed

[4x] Elvish Spirit Guide
[3x] Scryb Ranger

twice. They're under spells too.

[ryO!]

i was wondering about 2 cards

Thorn of amethist vs Trinisphere (it s just a thought so please don't yell)
pros :
more likely to drop turn 1 than trini i mean u dont often have a "3 lands" solution 1 st hand
cons :
well trinisphere works vs aggro match, and is more annoying

my point is Trini lose a lot of his efficiency when it's not dropped t1 in my opinion but it still work as a "rule of law like" and if "it's resolved" take away fow&daze.

Troll Ascetic vs Ohran Viper
pros :
more or less nothing can really kill it
cons :
Ohran viper can kill "anything" + draw

as i ve tested the viper i really liked it, and as it's scary it can be a good decoy for creature removals. Troll Ascetic can hardly be killed by a player and it s recursive but lot less scaring than a viper.

any thought?

[jazzykat]

O viper vs. Troll: if you have Scryb Ranger in I'm in favor of Viper as it can attack and block. Otherwise they all have their merits.

Scryb Ranger is so cool. It also pwns vendillion clique and makes infy blocker with a dryad arbor.

Thorn vs. 3sphere: I believe that it could have a lot of merit but needs to be tested. I play icestorms with 3sphere which gives the following.

A g &2colorless play.
Makes 3sphere relevant longer.
Ocaisonally wins the game on it's own.

It isn't a threat and it is often a less than stellar topdeck.

[Nelis]

I've got the cards for this deck and have tried it out a bit. Not really proper testing (mainly vs aggro decks) but this is what bothers me about the deck already.

1. Chalice and Noble Hierarch don't mix, but of course it's possible to play around that. I've tried playing Land Grant instead because of its 2 mana CC. And because of the low land count its a tempo boost (being able to play a tarmogoyf and get that 3rd land for 'free'. But I am not happy about that either cause it doesn't work well with Trinisphere.

3. I think this deck takes a lot of damage from Ancient Tomb, its not unusual getting 12 damage. I think that's way too much. And there's no way of compensating this loss of life.

4. How it's possible to get double green early enough for cards like Cold-Eyed Selkie is beyond me. It's possible but it usually involves using ESG . But if you do that it's hard to get to 4 mana for the rest of your (key) spells. Maybe this is because I don't run Noble Hierarchs anymore.

5. Trinisphere does not only slow your opponent down but yourself as well. What happened frequently was this: I already have a Trinisphere in play. I've cast a Garruk. I'm obliged to untap a Tomb and a Forest to play a Tarmogoyf for instance. But I already have lost so much damage from Tomb before, that it's getting very unsave life wise.

This happens all the time. I'm thinking of putting Kitchen Finks in the main, if only for point 4. Or otherwise Ohran Viper since it's able to block those pesky Kird Apes, early Goyf's and those other small critters that were put into play before our lock components.

6. a lot of cards don't do much by themselves. Scryb Sprite is nice but half of the time it's just a mere 1/1. I must admit I haven't tested against decks running Blue, so I will try this next. But even it's ability to return a forest hasn't been beneficial at all in my testing so far. But I'll leave it in for now and will try the decklist with Ohran Vipers to see if that makes a difference..

7. I don't like to be dependent on creatures having to hit for me to draw cards. So I rather have another way of drawing extra cards. (Harmonize comes to mind) But I'll try Viper first.

I guess what really bothers me too see that the lock components do not work as well as you might expect them to work. But maybe I'm playing the deck all wrong. So any input is appreciated.

@ryO: I think the aggro match-up is very bad unless you resolve a chalice for 1 on turn 1 or preferably trinisphere turn 1. Otherwise I don't see this deck winning from aggro (zoo in particular)

Did anyone try using City of Traitors as well? Maybe putting a Crucible or 2 in the deck? Then we also have a nice mana denial package with Wastelands. Seems good versus a lot of decks: aggro (zoo), ANT, Bant.

[ryO!]

I personnaly liked using elves over hierarch and i agree that chalice wouldn't interfere with any of them.

After some testing and thinking, i guess that Ohran viper is just really good in here as its a real damn threat comparing to Ascetic troll. (i don't think selkie is an otion at all anymore).

I also agree on the fact that tomb damn hurt (in one game i ve lost ~10/12 dmgs) but kitchen finks seem low comparing to viper ...
What about marshaling troops? maybe a bit pricy, run like 2 but would give for sure 8/12 life + u could untap the creatures with the scryb ranger but well ^^.

As for Scryb being weak on it's own when opponent doesn't play blue, well it fly + can untap creature and give/save a land. So i am really convince about their efficiency in any match up.

About trini slowing us as well, i am not so sure, each time i ve played it, it didn't bother me that much, BUT i always felt like it was dropped too late (as i ve said in my previous post).

Viper vs harmonize well i d rather play Sofi then. (i am playing one MD and it was really fine) or even Snakeform ^^. but it worth to be tested.

About aggro match up, well unless they use vial i really think it s ok, but yeah chalice @ 1 damn help or trini turn 1.

COT would indeed require Crucible, but 2 seems low to be sure to get one no? but then it s would be harder to play Viper/NO/Garruk.

[jazzykat]

I was also frustrated when playing vs. zoo and I agree with most of your comments but:

While hierarchs/llanowar elves are a nombo which CoTV=1 they are one way to get your double green. You may be able to try chrome moxes.

Also, regarding Scryb Ranger you do realize that if you have out a forest and a colorless source and it is your third turn then you can bounce the forest replay it and get your second green and third overall mana.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Gawd, I wish I had sets of Goyf and NO so I could play this deck. Sadly, until I want to pony up $250 for eight Magic cards, plus the random other few cards I would need, I've just gotta just ogle from the sidelines at how fun this shit looks...

[ryO!]

I was also frustrated when playing vs. zoo and I agree with most of your comments but:

While hierarchs/llanowar elves are a nombo which CoTV=1 they are one way to get your double green. You may be able to try chrome moxes.

Also, regarding Scryb Ranger you do realize that if you have out a forest and a colorless source and it is your third turn then you can bounce the forest replay it and get your second green and third overall mana.

about elves/hierarch vs Mox

elves/hierarch block
elves/hierarch + equiment kills
elves/hierarch are food for NO
elves/hierarch can be untaped with Scryb


what were your match up like vs zoo?
how could i improve the Odin match up? ^^ since i got pretty much humiliated :/

[Nelis]

Also, regarding Scryb Ranger you do realize that if you have out a forest and a colorless source and it is your third turn then you can bounce the forest replay it and get your second green and third overall mana.

Yeah I know, it just hasn't happened yet that I could get advantage of it but I still have them in the main.

I'll try Moxes.

@ryO: you're right about Viper and Finks. But I have the feeling that Finks improves the zoo match-up a bit more than Viper since Viper is boltable. I guess, the question is what's more important. Compensating the damage or drawing cards. It's not easy to answer, it'll take some more testing I suppose.

But I must say I'm inclined to turn it into a control deck (green Stax). With a Crucible/Loam lock. Maybe using Horizon Canopy as draw engine. And I also want to try Savage Conception but I think it's CMC is too high.

[ryO!]

my current main question remain how to be sure to drop either chalice or trini turn 1
about chalice it's doable
but trini is damn hard

moxs are nice but weaker than elves/hierarch (turn one mana elves, turn two tomb NO is fun ^^)
loam could be a nice inclusion

viper vs finks i ll test it too, but finks seems more like a SB solution as viper is good in all MU.

Just give us a Green Nighthawk Vampire!

[elgoff]

my current main question remain how to be sure to drop either chalice or trini turn 1
about chalice it's doable
but trini is damn hard

moxs are nice but weaker than elves/hierarch (turn one mana elves, turn two tomb NO is fun ^^)
loam could be a nice inclusion

viper vs finks i ll test it too, but finks seems more like a SB solution as viper is good in all MU.

Just give us a Green Nighthawk Vampire!

I would play a Green Nighthawk Vampire right now if I could!!!

We came out with same idea in testing...for my part:

Selkie vs Viper vs Finks...

Still in testing mode...
I really like Selkie in MY metagame right now but Finks give you 2 heads in front of Zoo. So if your meta is packed with Zoo deck play Finks. Viper is soooo strong too. Very hard choice are to be made...


And seriously, the deck can't win without Elves or Hierarch period.

[Aggro_zombies]

Just out of curiosity, has anyone tried Rampaging Baloths in this deck? It seems like the presence of Scryb Ranger should guarantee you the ability to make a 4/4 every turn, which seems pretty powerful as a way to stabilize (since rapidly dropping life totals seem to be an issue for this deck). Furthermore, the 6/6 body can usually profitably engage Tarmogoyf in combat, so as a pure attacker the Baloths seem quite good. My question is, is six mana pushing it, and is the effect even needed here?

[ryO!]

Just out of curiosity, has anyone tried Rampaging Baloths in this deck? It seems like the presence of Scryb Ranger should guarantee you the ability to make a 4/4 every turn, which seems pretty powerful as a way to stabilize (since rapidly dropping life totals seem to be an issue for this deck). Furthermore, the 6/6 body can usually profitably engage Tarmogoyf in combat, so as a pure attacker the Baloths seem quite good. My question is, is six mana pushing it, and is the effect even needed here?

it look nice but they printed progenitus, and i don't really think it's needed, plus it s redundant with garruk but less efficient as 6CC make it s harder to cast.
as it to be a solution to block tarmogofs, well tarmo comes turn 2 this turn 4/6 so well a bit late.

[elgoff]

Baloth is out of the tempo curve. Can't play the dude. Ravenous Baloth would better imo and I don't even think about playing it.

I've manage some testing and Sryb Ranger + Ohran Viper is just insane. It's not even fair for the other players!!!

[RexFTW]

This is officially the easiest deck ever to play and win games with. My friend sort of knows the rules of magic. He doesnt know the phases, or how planes walkers work.

So I give him this deck and expect him to have fun scrubbing out but he ends up X-1 and being in 5th at the end of swiss (17 person tourney).

He beat threshold Ichorid and several other tier 1 decks!

EZ Mode!

[DJ-Tom4yk]

Hey,

I had to sell my cards a couple months back, (cuz of school and rent) but my buddy is talking me back into the game. I was looking around the site for decks and being I used to be a fan of aggro control think this deck could be pretty dope. heres a list im thinking of, so I hope ppl are still interested in this deck...

Land:20
-
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
12 Forest

Creatures:25

4 llanowar elves
4 Tarmagoyf
4 Wall of blossoms
4 Elvish Spirit guide
4 Scyrb ranger
4 Kitchen Finks
1 progenitus

Spells:15
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Natural Order
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Jitte


Sideboard:15
4 Krosans Grips
3 Tormads Crypt
4 Choke
4 Trinisphere

cool....

[RexFTW]

I dont think i would play wall of blossoms in an agro deck....

[Darkenslight]

I dont think i would play wall of blossoms in an agro deck....

Then what would you play? Multani's Acolyte? Has echo, stalling you for a turn. Yavimaya Elder? Too expensive. Wall of Blossoms does something that pretty much any other Green card couldn't: draw you a card.

Of the cheap cards that could draw you a card, the only one that looks remotely decent is Insist, to force through that Goyf you always wanted. :)

[AlterEgo]

Then what would you play? Multani's Acolyte? Has echo, stalling you for a turn. Yavimaya Elder? Too expensive. Wall of Blossoms does something that pretty much any other Green card couldn't: draw you a card.


What about Elvish Visionary?
At least she can attack...

[DJ-Tom4yk]

The problem is visionary is a 1/1, the wall can block most early creatures as live. If you run enough equipment it actually might be worth it to have a cantripping creature that can attack. Otherwise, the wall would be better to provide defense until you drop one of the bombs. Im still figuring out the deck...

Btw, anybody that has played this deck for a while, what are the match up like? how does this do against the main tier 1 like merfolk, zoo, thresh...???

[RexFTW]

The deck is a green aggro deck that just happens to have natural order. The point of the deck is not to play natural order.. but if it happens you usually win. Cantripping creatures don't really fit the game plan.

[RexFTW]

Btw, anybody that has played this deck for a while, what are the match up like? how does this do against the main tier 1 like merfolk, zoo, thresh...???

Well it walks all over blue countertop decks Ichorid and zoo. Havent played against goblins though but i dont think it will be a good matchup. Merfolk is a coinflip.

[Rascal]

Hi guys,

I pick up this deck as my 2nd for Legacy (I played LED and nonLED Dredge).
I was starting with Le Goff´s version from Canada and I really enjoy it.

But what my feelling is, that Garruk is the weakest card of the decklist? Too crazy? Maybe...

But I think, that some slots are debatable - e.g. Scryb Sprites/Selkie/??? ....but this is the weakest point.

Have somebody of you similar findings? Are there any cards which can replace Garruk, or in this case we get different deck with different playstyle?

[RexFTW]

I have been considering replacing garruk with phantom centaurs or doing like a 3/2 split of them. My 1 of centaur always does quite well. The other option is Chameleon Colossus I think.

I think garruk is nice in standoffs because of the overrun ultimate ;)

Sprites are actually amazing, if you are a good player they can do a ton of things that are totally cheating in green. Not to mention that they help alot in mana screw and do sic things with llanowar elf. The pro blue is also VERY relevant.

I did replace selkie with spawnwrite and it has been quite good.

[RexFTW]

Does anyone have an idea how to deal with Sower of Temptation?

All i have come up with is Duplicant.

[Nydaeli]

I'd suggest a Hurricane variant. Probably Arashi, since it's also a semi-respectable beater.

[Savo]

this vanilla 4/5 from Worldwake may resolve the "what three pick is the best for this deck" issue...:rolleyes:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=98645&d=1260268347

[ryO!]

Then what would you play? Multani's Acolyte? Has echo, stalling you for a turn. Yavimaya Elder? Too expensive. Wall of Blossoms does something that pretty much any other Green card couldn't: draw you a card.

Of the cheap cards that could draw you a card, the only one that looks remotely decent is Insist, to force through that Goyf you always wanted. :)

wall of blossom is just REALLY bad in this deck. it's simply just bad.


Elvish Visionary

it's bad as well... but better than blossom, but bad overall.


The problem is visionary is a 1/1, the wall can block most early creatures as live. If you run enough equipment it actually might be worth it to have a cantripping creature that can attack. Otherwise, the wall would be better to provide defense until you drop one of the bombs. Im still figuring out the deck...

Btw, anybody that has played this deck for a while, what are the match up like? how does this do against the main tier 1 like merfolk, zoo, thresh...???

indeed for Elvish Visionary, but it's not a viable option.
as for tier 1 MU :

Merfolk is hard, choke doesn't help, still better than 3Sphere but it won't bother them unless they don't got vial, snakeform can help.
zoo is ok but i need more testing. chalice @ 1 T1 help even if they ofc got qasali.
CanadianThresh is fine see above.


I have been considering replacing garruk with phantom centaurs or doing like a 3/2 split of them. My 1 of centaur always does quite well. The other option is Chameleon Colossus I think.

I think garruk is nice in standoffs because of the overrun ultimate ;)

Sprites are actually amazing, if you are a good player they can do a ton of things that are totally cheating in green. Not to mention that they help alot in mana screw and do sic things with llanowar elf. The pro blue is also VERY relevant.

I did replace selkie with spawnwrite and it has been quite good.

garruk is one of the strongest thing in this deck, the overrun is a useless overkill, or well i ve never had to use it, +2land or +1 3/3 is a bomb every single time, plus the opponent have to focus on him rather that you.
phantom centaur is ... bad ? balstoderm seems much more accurate as a 4CC creature in this deck but garruk is just better.

Sprite is tremendous indeed !!

about spawnwrite, i ve tested it, and i really prefer ohran viper wich is much more annoying for the opponent, +gives a nice CA, and has 3 thoughness.


Does anyone have an idea how to deal with Sower of Temptation?

All i have come up with is Duplicant.

i see jitte only ^^.


Arashi, the Sky Asunder

it miss evasion and there are much more non-flying threat than flying ones.


this vanilla 4/5 from Worldwake may resolve the "what three pick is the best for this deck" issue...

GGG is pretty much a no go ^^.

anyway
finished 2nd in a 13 man tour nothing to be pround of ^^ as i bye/2-1/1-2/2-1) but it was only serious players that have a good ranking in our "national legacy rank".

anyway it ll be succinct as i don't take notes)

#G1 bye

#G2 canadian thresh
g1 : he doesn't know what i play so he is a bit surprised, he counter my chalice, my trini, then i land 1/2 creature per turn, i overrun him despite the bolt etc.
g2 : bad start, i land some creatures, eventually i lose to multiple mongoose.
g3 : turn 2 choke resolved made the game.

#G3 fish
g1 : mulligan to 5, 1 land, turn 1 chalice 1, turn 2 trini (still only one land, had ESG), 5 next draw step no lands ... well, not a funny game ^^.
g2 : mulligan to 6 but i got lands ^^, he STP some of my creatures but i ve got too much of them, and i prog in the end.
g3 : mulligan to 6, he has answer for every of my play, start to destroy all my lands ... i can't recover, he kills me with bob + infiltrator (he ll end up 4-0 and win the tour)
g4 : we played one more, as g1 was pretty much useless, i rush him & win
g5 : i win again :/

#G4 canadian thresh
g1 : he has answer for everything but in the end i win ^^.
g2 : awesome game, tight one, hard fight, i thought i d won but in the end no ^^. One of the most exciting game i ve played for a long time, blow for blow all along.
g3 : i land too much thing he waste a lot of counter on chalice/trini, i win.
we also did g4 & g5 and i ve won both.

well it was a small tourney (and report ^^) but quite nice, the deck has a decent match up against Cthresh.

my list was :

[2x] Llanowar Elves
[2x] Fyndhorn Elves
[4x] Tarmogoyf
[2x] Wickerbough Elder
[3x] Orhan Viper
[4x] Elvish Spirit Guide
[3x] Scryb Ranger
//spells
[4x] Natural Order
[4x] Chalice of the Void
[4x] Trinisphere
[3x] Garruk Wildspeaker
[3x] Umezawa's Jitte
[1x] SoFI
[1x] Progenitus
//Land
[8x] Forest
[4x] Misty Rainforest
[4x] Ancient Tomb
[4x] Wasteland
//sb
[4x] Choke
[1x] Relic
[2x] TCrypt
[3x] Krosan
[3x] Snakeform
[1x] SoFI

i am still not convince by hierarch
as the elves prevent you from -1/-2 dealt by mongoose, lackey, or even bob, so i don't think i ll replace them in the end.
rest is pretty much same as usuall, Scryb is a fantastic toolbox/threat, garruk rly makes a difference when u land it, as for ohran viper the more i play the more it convince me it's the best choice as a 3CC creature.
gives us a CA, kills more or less everything, and aswome with Scryb/equipment.
Only thing i miss is a green vindicate :/

[Savo]

Two Teches that could be tested for this deck:

1: Survival of the fittest: a good tool against the randomness of the draws.. to avoid losing from drawing three forests in a row...
Maybe only 2/3x, plus 1 genesis (maybe not squee) which is a 4/4 anyway...It gives good sideboard plans too (shushers, for example)

2: heartwood storyteller: I wonder if this crap rare could finally find room... probably not, too matchup dependant, and we play several non-creature spells too...:frown:

[elgoff]

Ok, me and my teammates just came back from another great Legacy weekend... I dropped after the third round (my deck didn't want me to play forest!?!?!?) but Ugo my teammates manage to finish 4th again with the deck.

We both played a different version (him 3 selkie + 4 boa, me 4 viper and 3 srcyb) and we finally concluded what was the best way to go with the option we have...

RIVER BOA is an house. From now on I'll play 3 or 4 copy every time.

ORHAN VIPER is amazing. It's never a dead card...like Selkie could be sometimes... I'll play 3 or 4 copy from now on.

Selkie never gonna see play anymore for me.

Scryb Ranger is weak. The untap bonus doesn't do much... Boa's Islandwalk + Regen is way better than Flying/Pro Blue... Waste of space!

Again, Summoners Trap is soooo good. People just don't counter my spells anymore after side even if I don't bring them in!?!?!?

[ryO!]

Ok, me and my teammates just came back from another great Legacy weekend... I dropped after the third round (my deck didn't want me to play forest!?!?!?) but Ugo my teammates manage to finish 4th again with the deck.

We both played a different version (him 3 selkie + 4 boa, me 4 viper and 3 srcyb) and we finally concluded what was the best way to go with the option we have...

RIVER BOA is an house. From now on I'll play 3 or 4 copy every time.

ORHAN VIPER is amazing. It's never a dead card...like Selkie could be sometimes... I'll play 3 or 4 copy from now on.

Selkie never gonna see play anymore for me.

Scryb Ranger is weak. The untap bonus doesn't do much... Boa's Islandwalk + Regen is way better than Flying/Pro Blue... Waste of space!

Again, Summoners Trap is soooo good. People just don't counter my spells anymore after side even if I don't bring them in!?!?!?
héhé glad you did well again ^^
this deck is really strong anyway !
i ll give it a try, switching Scryb for boa, but to be perfectly honnest i do use a LOT scryb's capacity, and flying is more or like anylandwalk, the regeneration should be definitely useful though.
and damn i gotta get those traps ^^.
Selkie is baaad indeed !

[Vacrix]

Scryb Ranger is weak. The untap bonus doesn't do much

Really? Vigilance Vipers and Goyf's are tight as hell, and you can avoid sinkhole/wasteland, and you can play more spells off a limited number of lands by untapping an elf, and then replaying the land, netting you 2 extra mana, AND it has flying so it can carry Jitte/SoFI with evasion, AND it rapes in the merfolk matchup because it has problue (seriously monoblue folds to this unless they draw Merfolk Sovereign).....AND you can play it in response to your opponents spells once he taps out, AND it can be hax in combat by untapping Viper/Goyf at instant speed in response to an attack.

Scryb Ranger is far from weak. It has won me so many games its ridiculous. Besides islandwalk isn't nearly as good as problue and flying. In more situations you will want flying, and it can be played as an instant, making it more likely to resolve, and it has untap tricks. Why would you run river boa? Most kill spells in the format will either RFG it or 'cannot be regenerated' anyway, provided you even have mana to afford to keep paying the regeneration cost and keep casting spells.

[ryO!]

Really? Vigilance Vipers and Goyf's are tight as hell, and you can avoid sinkhole/wasteland, and you can play more spells off a limited number of lands by untapping an elf, and then replaying the land, netting you 2 extra mana, AND it has flying so it can carry Jitte/SoFI with evasion, AND it rapes in the merfolk matchup because it has problue (seriously monoblue folds to this unless they draw Merfolk Sovereign).....AND you can play it in response to your opponents spells once he taps out, AND it can be hax in combat by untapping Viper/Goyf at instant speed in response to an attack.

Scryb Ranger is far from weak. It has won me so many games its ridiculous. Besides islandwalk isn't nearly as good as problue and flying. In more situations you will want flying, and it can be played as an instant, making it more likely to resolve, and it has untap tricks. Why would you run river boa? Most kill spells in the format will either RFG it or 'cannot be regenerated' anyway, provided you even have mana to afford to keep paying the regeneration cost and keep casting spells.

i have to agree 100% and as i ve already said, i do use all his tricks everytime i play it. I had totally forgotten about flash but it's a damn nice thing as well. it s also nice to block RWM with it ^^.

[RexFTW]

Scryb rangers is one of the best cards in the deck. If you are a good player. For example:

You have a tapped goyf. Your opponenet attacks with goyf. You play sprites, untap your goyf and block his with both yours and the sprites. You have just traded sprites for a goyf.

You put Jitte on Sprites. They fly over and get tokens on your turn. Untap them to block as 5/5 using jitte tokens and to get new tokens!

[Nidd]

I'm currently reading through the thread to understand the evolution this deck has gone through and I'm testing various lists. The deck looks very good and it really wins a ton.

What I wanted to know is, does this deck have some bad matchups that are nigh-unwinnable?

And are there some developments that this deck really needs to adjust to, or can I tinker with the list in the primer and expect decent results when I play well?
Are there currently unsolved problems with the deck?

I'm sorry for not knowing too much about the current metagame... I play Dredge, so I don't interact too much.

Also, what's the general consensus on the Swords? Which one is better? Would it be worth to play Jitte in the SB and pack, like, 3 SoFaI + 2 SoLaS MD?

I'm pretty interested in this deck and as I'm currently buying some staples (Goyf, Wasteland) I'm thinking about building this deck.

[Michael Keller]

Also, what's the general consensus on the Swords? Which one is better? Would it be worth to play Jitte in the SB and pack, like, 3 SoFaI + 2 SoLaS MD?

I still stand by Sword of Fire and Ice as being an absolutely integral part of the deck (sideboard, perhaps). I included it in my original list and it worked well after the large event I placed in with it (disproving its "one-trick pony" status in my own eyes). Being able to generate card advantage by killing an opponent's creatures and drawing cards is just simply all you need in some instances to win games. It gives creatures protection from two very important colors and it pumps them up, too.

I'm not saying all games, but I certainly have no reservations.

[ryO!]

I'm currently reading through the thread to understand the evolution this deck has gone through and I'm testing various lists. The deck looks very good and it really wins a ton.

What I wanted to know is, does this deck have some bad matchups that are nigh-unwinnable?

And are there some developments that this deck really needs to adjust to, or can I tinker with the list in the primer and expect decent results when I play well?
Are there currently unsolved problems with the deck?

I'm sorry for not knowing too much about the current metagame... I play Dredge, so I don't interact too much.

Also, what's the general consensus on the Swords? Which one is better? Would it be worth to play Jitte in the SB and pack, like, 3 SoFaI + 2 SoLaS MD?

I'm pretty interested in this deck and as I'm currently buying some staples (Goyf, Wasteland) I'm thinking about building this deck.

i don't see any REALLY BAD match up at all, combo and or aggro are always doable even during the first round.

Vial is really annoying though, but well no matter what's your deck, vial will always be annoying ...

Jitte is much better than the 2 swords, i only play one SoFI because jitte is legendary, but u ALWAYS want a jitte over a SoFI, as it's one the most powerfull card ever printed imo.
SoLaS has no place in this deck which therefor make SoFI better.
as for the protection matter, the white protection is the best due to mass STP everywhere), but dealing 2 dmg and drawing gives a better CA than 3 life + creature recursion (in this specific deck). The bleu and red one are yet usefull against blast/RWM/bouncers.
the thing is, with both of them ,u have to deal the dmg to the opponent first to be 100% efficient, and it's far from being always the case, that s why i think 3/1 (+1 SoFI SB) is a good way to play equiment in this deck. Jitte also require 1 less mana to play&equip, and it can destroy opponent's jitte.

[jazzykat]

IMO the most important 2 things to watch out for are:

1. A vial. You have CoTV =1 and they have vial. If they run vial life will be more difficult. I use the ice storm version so I really hate to see this card.

2. A very fast start from zoo can get you but it can get just about any deck.

The Vipers seem to be getting a lot of traction so I'm going to have to cut the ice storms as they are too dependent on the opponent not having vial, or Hierarch and also being level or ahead anyway. I have come to conclude that a threat is better than the extra LD.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

From what I can tell, it's just crazy not to run Ohran Viper (and Scryb Ranger) in this deck. They both seem very pimp with the overall strategy.

[RexFTW]

Spawnwrithe is the pimp shiz in this deck. Winning the game > drawing cards and drawing cards != winning the game. Turn 1 spawnwrithe is auto win vs most decks.

[Nelis]

I still dislike the low number of green mana sources. What about cutting Wastelands for forests? (I already went down to 3 Wasteland.)

When I take all the comments into account I would probably play the following list if I would play the deck:

// Lands
3 Wasteland
2(1) City of Traitors
3(4) Ancient Tomb
12 Forest

// Creatures
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Progenitus
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Scryb Ranger
4 Ohran Viper


// Spells
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Trinisphere
4 Natural Order
4 Chalice of the Void

Sideboard:
1 Wickerborough Elder
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Choke
3 Spawnwrite vs combo
3 Kitchen Finks vs aggro
3 Cold Eyed Selkie vs U control

Maybe cutting 3 choke & 1 Selkie for 1 Progenitus and 3 Summoning Trap.

[Ciberon]

I don't have any of the cards needed to build this deck but I'm looking forward to do so. What do you think of the following as a budget list?

// Lands
2 [AT] Pendelhaven
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [REW] Wasteland
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
9 [M10] Forest (4)

// Creatures
3 [CS] Ohran Viper
2 [EVE] Wickerbough Elder
4 [DM] Fyndhorn Elves
1 [CFX] Progenitus
4 [6E] River Boa
4 [SHM] Spawnwrithe
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide

// Spells
3 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [PT] Natural Order
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [8E] Choke
SB: 2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 3 [EVE] Snakeform
SB: 3 [EVE] Cold-Eyed Selkie

[AcidFiend]

Gawd, I wish I had sets of Goyf and NO so I could play this deck. Sadly, until I want to pony up $250 for eight Magic cards, plus the random other few cards I would need, I've just gotta just ogle from the sidelines at how fun this shit looks...

Same bro, I've been playtesting this online and its so fun but I can't afford it! Just have to be nice to a mate and maybe I can borrow the cards :cool:

I've loved Summoner's Trap so far, and have had fun with Spawnwrithe in the O. Viper spot.

[ryO!]

Same bro, I've been playtesting this online and its so fun but I can't afford it! Just have to be nice to a mate and maybe I can borrow the cards :cool:

I've loved Summoner's Trap so far, and have had fun with Spawnwrithe in the O. Viper spot.

Main thing with spawnwrithe is that it doesnt really Fit In the deck strategy and comparing to oviper most of the time unless u drop it t1 it will be a simple 2/2 without a relevant capacity.

[AcidFiend]

Main thing with spawnwrithe is that it doesnt really Fit In the deck strategy and comparing to oviper most of the time unless u drop it t1 it will be a simple 2/2 without a relevant capacity.

I may have spoken too soon - I was still laughing after I got a Turn 1 Spawnwrithe ftw. But unless you drop it in the first 1-2 turns, its an expensive Grizzly Bear.

[FlyingSkull13]

What I wanted to know is, does this deck have some bad matchups that are nigh-unwinnable?

Enchantress, just a nightmare, my meta has two, and its just unwinable

And are there some developments that this deck really needs to adjust to, or can I tinker with the list in the primer and expect decent results when I play well?

The more islands u see, the better day you will have, this deck has better than average matchup with dredge game one than most decks.


Also, what's the general consensus on the Swords? Which one is better? Would it be worth to play Jitte in the SB and pack, like, 3 SoFaI + 2 SoLaS MD?

SoFaI ftw, run some jitte's as well, they win games out of the blue

[Nelis]

What I wanted to know is, does this deck have some bad matchups that are nigh-unwinnable?

Enchantress, just a nightmare, my meta has two, and its just unwinable


Tranquility is of no use? (or maybe Reverent Silence)

[Pastorofmuppets]

Is Pendelhaven really so good if you stop running Selkie?
I mean, Noble Heirarch hits just like the Elves without Pendelhaven, and I'm sure Exalted would be relevant at some point.

[ryO!]

Is Pendelhaven really so good if you stop running Selkie?
I mean, Noble Heirarch hits just like the Elves without Pendelhaven, and I'm sure Exalted would be relevant at some point.

elves kills early moogose/bob/lackey and prevent your from dmgs that could be dealt by them if you only got that in play.
That's why i think elves are better.

[snackfu]

What kind of sideboard would be good in a field of Merfolk, Bloodghast Dredge, and Reanimator?

[ryO!]

What kind of sideboard would be good in a field of Merfolk, Bloodghast Dredge, and Reanimator?

played a tour this saturday
ended up 3-2 9th out of 3x men

should have been 4-1 though ...
anyway !

[2x] Llanowar Elves
[2x] Fyndhorn Elves
[4x] Tarmogoyf
[2x] Wickerbough Elder
[3x] Orhan Viper
[4x] Elvish Spirit Guide
[3x] Scryb Ranger
//spells
[4x] Natural Order
[4x] Chalice of the Void
[4x] Trinisphere
[3x] Garruk Wildspeaker
[3x] Umezawa's Jitte
[1x] SoFI
[1x] Progenitus
//Land
[8x] Forest
[4x] Misty Rainforest
[4x] Ancient Tomb
[4x] Wasteland
//sb
[4x] Choke
[2x] Relic
[2x] TCrypt
[3x] Krosan
[3x] Snakeform
[1x] Ravenous trap

#1 0-1 (1-2)
vs dredge
G1 :
well G1 i loose with progenitus on board ... i need one more turn ... as he yosei'ed me the turn i could have killed him. too bad because i had a pretty fast start
SBing 5 grave hate ... (hopefully just before the tour i added 1 ravenous trap and 1 tormods)
G2 : 1 chalice, fast start again, some hate GG
G3 : mistake on my turn one i land relic with a green land ... rather than Tomb+relic+activate to remove his golgari (he had no other way to drege and i d have won). he destroy relic on his turn, have a pretty bad start, me to though, drawing no land ... he dredge a lot land the blue 1/1 flying and star beat down, i eventualy land 2 viper, and i draw ... only lands ... he manage to finally dredge smth nice, and win.


#2 1-1 (2-0)
vs wierd bad deck
G1 : well i see nothing i win
G2 : well i see nothing i win

#3 2-1 (2-0)
vs merfolk
G1 : mana death for him, i dodge the daze with ESG, i see nothing rly threatening, i win
G2 : i knew he was playing merfolk but i dont use sb anyway, i go out much faster than him i win

#4 2-2 (0-2)
vs one of those many lands deck
G1 : i go out RLY fast, proge turn 3, i beat down to 3, he land glacial chasm, tabernacle, i never see a waste, he manage to win, WTF?
G2 : Sbing grave hate, krosan, but he goes out fast, tabernacle, waste, exploration, ghost quarter ... i can't do anything :/.
HARD MATCH UP

#5 3-2 (2-0)
vs ANT
G1 : damn close ... i only die due to my tomb, meaning a lower Tendrillis for him, missed only one turn.
G2 : SBing nothing, chalice @ 1 turn 1 made it.
G3 : Chalice 1 & chalice 0 turn 1, trinisphere turn 3, GG.

overall this deck is REALLY powerfull, but against xxlands decks we have not that many outs :/

oh and most of the time relic sucks ... tormods is so much better/faster

if anyone got an idea let me know.

[Michael Keller]

oh and most of the time relic sucks ... tormods is so much better/faster

I think I mentioned that in my original post. Why the hell would anyone want to shrink their own Tarmogoyfs when that is a major win condition in the deck?

Also, as far as land-based decks are concerned, the only card you really need to worry about is Glacial Chasm against your Progenitus. Otherwise, you have Wasteland and that can generally get the job done. That match is inherently bad (especially on the draw in game three), because they can drop Exploration turn one and dodge your Chalice. Unfortunately, there isn't a whole lot you can do about that unless you board in Tormod's Crypt to stop Loam.

Ice Storm is another shot in the dark, too. Unless an opponent drops Tabernacle or Glacial Chasm, you have a good chance of winning.

[ryO!]

I think I mentioned that in my original post. Why the hell would anyone want to shrink their own Tarmogoyfs when that is a major win condition in the deck?

Also, as far as land-based decks are concerned, the only card you really need to worry about is Glacial Chasm against your Progenitus. Otherwise, you have Wasteland and that can generally get the job done. That match is inherently bad (especially on the draw in game three), because they can drop Exploration turn one and dodge your Chalice. Unfortunately, there isn't a whole lot you can do about that unless you board in Tormod's Crypt to stop Loam.

Ice Storm is another shot in the dark, too. Unless an opponent drops Tabernacle or Glacial Chasm, you have a good chance of winning.
Main thing about relic, i thought u could target the card ... so next time i ll fully read the card i use ... and about the land match up, g1 glacial save him, g3 early tabernacle... but still i love how that deck can more or less win g1 against any MU.

[RexFTW]

chalice @ 2 stops loam :)

[ryO!]

chalice @ 2 stops loam :)

but not crucible.

[FlyingSkull13]

chalice at 2 hurts this deck more than the opponent at that point, better off siding in your crypts for chalices at that point

[ryO!]

chalice at 2 hurts this deck more than the opponent at that point, better off siding in your crypts for chalices at that point

best is chalice 1 to get rid of exploration
tomords for loam
grip for crucible/zuran

[manugl84]

This list made T8 on january 9th (82 people)

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Sword of Fire/Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Kitchen Finks
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Wall of Root
4 Natural Order
2 Acidic Slime
2 Chrome Mox
1 Eternal Witness
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Progenitus
6 Forest
3 Treetop Village
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Dryad Arbor

sb
1 Trinisphere
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Choke
3 Thornweald Archer
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Leyline of the Void

I don´t like some of the card choices, like the lack of elves/hierarchs and acidic slimes, but finks and treetop are choices that I had intention to test some time ago. Also the sb seems a little weird.
Thoughts?

[SkinLikeSkim]

I am little weirded out by the Thornweald Archers. Any idea why (specific card) those are included?

I like the one of Eternal Witness though.

edit: Oh tombstalker. That is pretty cute.

[manugl84]

I guees the thornweald archers are there to deal with tombstalkers.

I like the lone witness as well.

I´m planning to take this deck to GP Madrid. I expect lots of combo and fast aggro. Do you think this deck to be a good option?
I´d run finks to deal zoo, which is much played here in Madrid, and probably the walls are a good option, although the vipers seems very powerful combined with scryb rangers. What do you think?
And what about the sb? Any suggestions?

[ryO!]

I guees the thornweald archers are there to deal with tombstalkers.

I like the lone witness as well.

I´m planning to take this deck to GP Madrid. I expect lots of combo and fast aggro. Do you think this deck to be a good option?
I´d run finks to deal zoo, which is much played here in Madrid, and probably the walls are a good option, although the vipers seems very powerful combined with scryb rangers. What do you think?
And what about the sb? Any suggestions?

viper + scryb is a bomb but the main thing is even if you don't have them both in play, each of these creatures are really efficient alone.
Finks are nice i guess if there are plenty of zoo, else i d prefer viper over it.
Wall of root seems really bad as you don't have any first turn drop and well it doesn't deal dmg.
Acidic Slime vs Wickerbough Elder : It looks nice but you can drop elder for one less G (even if you need another G to activate it) and it's stronger yet Slime has dreadtouch. Being able to destroy a land can be nice in some MU as well. Might be nice to split 1/1. It has to be tested i guess.
Woodfall Primus well prog seems to be always better, yet you can hard cast it but .... I wouldn't play it.
Dryad Arbor is bad in my opinion.
Treetop makes your mana base even more weaker to waste and slower you in the begining so i am not that sure it's that relelvant here.
trini main is a bomb vs many deck so it seems to be mandatory here.

sb

1 Trinisphere -1 +4 main
1 Umezawa's Jitte -1 +1 main
4 Choke ok
3 Thornweald Archer -3 +2/3 korsan
2 Tormod's Crypt ok
4 Leyline of the Void -4 + 2tormods +2 ravenous trap

i too would need some suggestion about the sb here was my last :

[4x] Choke
[4x] TCrypt
[3x] Krosan
[3x] Snakeform
[1x] Ravenous trap

[Pastorofmuppets]

What is everyone's thoughts on Tangle Wire in the deck? I'm testing it out right now, and I'm getting kind of mixed results. It beats the hell out of Zoo if they don't have a Jitte out, though.

[ryO!]

What is everyone's thoughts on Tangle Wire in the deck? I'm testing it out right now, and I'm getting kind of mixed results. It beats the hell out of Zoo if they don't have a Jitte out, though.

i am not sure we have enough permanent to use tangle wire with full efficiency, therefor i think it will be in most of case as annoying for us than for the opponent.

[Sims]

I think Tangle Wire would go better in the more tomb/city based version of the deck that ran Spawnwrithes, call of the Herds, and permanent producers. I don't think this version of the deck has the chops to use it effecitvely.

[Pastorofmuppets]

I think Tangle Wire would go better in the more tomb/city based version of the deck that ran Spawnwrithes, call of the Herds, and permanent producers. I don't think this version of the deck has the chops to use it effecitvely.

I've found that it works quite well with Scryb Ranger. Something else I might test out in the near future is Tilling Treefolk. Don't ask me what slot it'll take up, though.

[delcameron]

I've been piloting this deck for the last few weeks, with some success. Sideboarding is still an issue for me though. What to side in is usually a no brainer; it's a lot more about what to side out. Specifically, in what matchups do you side out either 3Sphere or Chalice?

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Has anyone tried out Loaming Shaman as a potential sideboard card for this deck?

(*Bump*!)

[ryO!]

Did a 43 mand tour, ended up in my worst result ever !
2-4
won only against ant & another deck i dont remember
i got crushed by survival & probant & zoo & Stoneforge Wgu deck iirc

i ll try to add 3 Sylvian mainremove the wickerbough & 1 Trini main

[2x] Llanowar Elves
[2x] Fyndhorn Elves
[4x] Tarmogoyf
[3x] Orhan Viper
[4x] Elvish Spirit Guide
[3x] Scryb Ranger
//spells
[4x] Natural Order
[4x] Chalice of the Void
[3x] Sylvian Lybrary
[3x] Trinisphere
[3x] Garruk Wildspeaker
[3x] Umezawa's Jitte
[1x] SoFI
[1x] Progenitus
//Land
[8x] Forest
[4x] Misty Rainforest
[4x] Ancient Tomb
[4x] Wasteland

[Plague Sliver]

How did the deck play out vs. ANT? Did he fizzle or was he unable to go off?

[ryO!]

How did the deck play out vs. ANT? Did he fizzle or was he unable to go off?

ant is like the an easy md for this deck there is no need to even use SB

g1
t1 => chalice 0
t2 => trini
g2
t1 => chalice 1
t2 => waste
t3 => trini

survival decks are really REALLY annoying, more or less t3/4 => iona
i ll also add a forth grip SB

[delcameron]

I'm still piloting this after a few months and I'm really digging it. I'm taking it to an upcoming 1k$ Legacy in Quebec City and I may then try my hand at a report. Also, anyone ever come across a good board-sweeper Wrath-type thing in SB? I'm expecting a meta filled with Goblins, Fish and some Zoo.

[TOGITwill]

If theres goblins, I've got some super-secret-tech for you.

Hailstorm.

Laugh now, but when they turn sideways and get their board swept by Mono Green, it'll be SO fulfilling.

[delcameron]

I loved the Hail Storm suggestion! but I've opted to squeeze 2 SoFI into the SB... Goblins are rampant here and the GY decks have cooled down so I ousted 1 Tormod's Crypt and 1 Choke from the board. That way, the 4th Choke you don't have can be subbed by either SoFI against Merfolk or KGrip against Landstill. I still have 3 Snakeform SB, I'm still hoping it will be as game-winning as I imagine it can be, although so far... I'll post a list after the event.
GO G.C.A. :)

[delcameron]

The Face à Face in Montreal hosted a Legacy event on Easter Sunday, it drew a below-average 28 people. 1st prize UNL Mox Ruby, 2nd prize LEG Mana Drain Eng NM, 3rd-4th 2 rev blue duals. The list below ended up taking 2nd, losing games 2 and 3 in the finals. I have a Mana Drain. :)

M.G.C.A. B-) 60

//creatures
Noble Hierarch 4
Elvish Spirit Guide 4
Tarmogoyf 4
Wickerbough Elder 1
Ohran Viper 4
Scryb Ranger 3
Progenitus 1
21

//spells
Natural Order 4
Chalice of the Void 4
Trinisphere 4
Garruk Wildspeaker 3
Umezawa's Jitte 3
18

//Land
Forest 9
Windswept Heath 1
Wooded Foothills 1
Misty Rainforest 1
Dryad Arbor 1
Ancient Tomb 4
Wasteland 4
21

//sb
Choke 3
Tormod's Crypt 3
Krosan Grip 4
Snakeform 3
Sword of Fire and Ice 2
15

Mostly good/great players show up from what I can tell, and before game one began I traded to acquire a nice foily Iona... now to find the Loyal Retainers.

First matchup is Merfolk (Justin). He takes me down 2-0 getting turn one Aether Vial both games, so Chalice is too late. His doods come out faster and I never see an Equipment. His Jitte = win. After that I take on ANT, and I lose the roll again (note: I subsequently lose all other rolls). But turn two 3Sphere nails him to the wall early. Game two he Duresses me turn one and chucks my 3Sphere, the only ANT threat in my hand. I draw Chalice two turns later and play it at 0. ANT scoops. 1-1

Rounds 3 and 4 are Zoo - I find myself surprised I haven't played one Goblin deck, I want to test (ie. have nut-smacking fun with) SoFI in this matchup. All I remember is that Chalice at 1 was never too late -- I never saw a Chain Lightning resolve against me (though a few well-placed Bolts did get through, taking out valued Ohran Vipers) and it also stuffs Nacatl, Kird Ape, Loam Lion and Grim Lavamancer back into the jungle. Game 1 of Round 4 was deadlocked and he needed to draw Helix to burn me or Qasali to bust my Chalice@1. I drew Chalice with plenty of land and a few valuable 2-drops in play (Goyf, Scryb Ranger), so I set it at two. All he needs is KGrip. He gets it, nails my Chalice@1 and tries to unload his hand through 3Sphere. Now I can't cast Chalice@1 because of the one at 2, and his Bolts take out my attacker two turns straight. He has a Jitte but no dood, and burn runs out. For game 2 I side in 2 SoFI, maybe 1 KGrip (Jitte or Sylvan Library) and side out... I don't remember, maybe 1 NO, 1 Dryad Arbor and 1 Scryb Ranger. 3Sphere, Prog and Garruk stay. So the game is drawn out, and I finally get to milk my Garruk for three doods and make him hit the GY, getting my Goyf to 5/6. I'm now 3-1.

My Round 5 matchup (David Soued) and I figure out that if we draw we are guaranteed Top 8. He's playing The Rock with Knight of the Reliquary and Maelstrom Pulse.

Top 8 I'm playing Raphael Caron piloting a thing with Stasis (!); he pays its upkeep with Forsaken City and runs 4 Howling Mine. (I subsequently learn the deck is called TurboStasis.) I'm surprised as Hell game one, and flounder around in fear of tapping out. He has that blue Kismet in play and then lands his Stasis, I am locked. I play on just to see how I'm gonna get killed, and his Jace One keeps building until his ultimate brings my library to less than 10 cards. I side in 4 KGrips and 1 SoFI, siding out the NO+Prog package. Games 2 and 3 just go my way. I set a Chalice@1 then try to land my 2-drops early to set Chalice@2 as soon as I can (not only hitting his Stasis but also Howling Mine and Impulse). When he manages to lock, my surprise VIP is Scryb Ranger: the ability to sneak under a Stasis-lock by bouncing a Forest (= untapping it) to untap a creature, either Hierarch or, in this game, a Jitte-equipped Wickerbough Elder, is game-breaking.

Semifinals I'm playing Justin's Merfolk, my only Swiss round loss. By now I'm pretty dazed and in a somewhat meditative state, and I only remember highlights... like when his two consecutive Jittes soon meet with my two soon top-decked KGrips. I draw threats like a champion and win 2-0.

The Finals match me up to The Rock, and this seems to start, happen, and end all in a moment. Game 1 I beat through with something like a turn 3 Garruk, turn 4 Prog - and he scoops. His sideboard is chockful of goodies against me, namely KGrip (duh) and Deathmark... and then, I don't know, I mull both games; fast Goyfs and Knight of the Reliquary, Swords and Pulse and Deathmark take away all my options. During our game Sal the Great Host came and dropped two toploaders onto the table. After Game 3 David gracefully places the one holding the Mana Drain facing me dead center on my playmat, then enjoys the splendor of his UNL Mox Ruby. I am pleasantly surprised at how crispy NM+ the Mana Drain is, and somewhat relieved that I didn't lose due to a misplay. Although game 3 maybe I should've mulled to 5... but let's not get into that now.

So I'm looking forward to the F2F hosting a 1K Legacy next month, and until then I intend to get more results at a 1K Legacy in Quebec City next weekend, place called l'Imaginaire. The meta is a total mystery to me, their last-month tournament was won by Pox and Bomberman placed Top 8... dunno. I find it cool, that Bomberman deck.

[evanmartyr]

Other than against the Stasis deck (where they're essentially the best card in the world), how were the Scryb Rangers? People came up with a lot of theoretical uses for them, but they still seem a bit...meh?

Any way we can maybe improve the mono-black or B/x control deck matchup? I've started to see a lot of that around here as well.

I have a suspicion that it'll involve Karn, but I could be wrong.

[ryO!]

Other than against the Stasis deck (where they're essentially the best card in the world), how were the Scryb Rangers? People came up with a lot of theoretical uses for them, but they still seem a bit...meh?

Any way we can maybe improve the mono-black or B/x control deck matchup? I've started to see a lot of that around here as well.

I have a suspicion that it'll involve Karn, but I could be wrong.

Scryb is indeed really nice due to it s many capacities, but of course sometimes it s nothing but a 1/1 flying, yet most of the time it remains really helpful & versatile. I d never cut them.
congraz on the finish but you were lucky not to face survival i mean their iona hurt a damn lot.
afer some testing with Sylvian library instead of wickerbough i must say that i am pretty much convinced, and i don't really regret no wicker main for now.
As for the mono B mu what s your main problem ?

[paeng4983]

8 Forest
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Progenitus
3 Mire Boa
4 River Boa
2 Wickerbough Elder
1 Llanowar Elves
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Spawnwrithe
2 Cold-Eyed Selkie
4 Natural Order
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Garruk Wildspeaker

Sideboard
4 Snakeform
4 Choke
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip


1st rd: merfolks
river boa with jitte on her gave me the victory.

2nd rd: reanimator
1st game: my mire boa with jitte on her gave me the 1st win of the round. at 1st i though he was playing an ANT deck because he kept on brainstorming and pondering and mystical tutoring his library. so i didn't changed any MD for game two.
2nd game: WTF 1st turn entomb fishing Sphinx of the Steel Wind out of his library into his yard then in his next turn revived it via reanimate. i have to admit, i was surprised with his deck. and from there on - i never recovered. i immediately reached for my tormod's and removed w.elder and cold eyed and a spawn.
3rd game: again same situation 1st turn entomb then 2nd turn reanimate but this time, it was his Empyrial Archangel that he fished out while on my side i have this lone snake (mire boa). facing defeat - i stared at the angel for a moment before heading to my drawstep. it was jitte whom i topped deck. but before i cast jitte, i put them (jitte and EA) side by side to double check if the redirect damage to EA is considered a combat damage. and when i was sure of it, i immediately cast jitte (in which he just let it resolved) and equipped it to mireboa, then swing boa. he then called a judge and asked if the redirected damage to EA is considered a combat. and the answer was a YES. from there on it was like a biblical battle of the angel against the snake. i was down to 5 when jitte has 4 counters on her. and just before EA absorb the redirect damage - i gave mire boa a +8/+8 off jitte's counters. he has another chance to revive the fallen angel but i had already my tormod's ready on my table effectively removing his graveyard from play. and from there on - i road on my snake again for the 2nd win of the tourney.

3rd rd: GR stompy
2nd turn NO-progen on both 1st and 2nd games secured my 3rd straight win of the day.

4th rd: fae
well, the 50min regular period is not enough for us to play out game. until we just have it a draw.

5th rd: slivers
i was able to wasteland his tundra and tropical islands and trinisphere was keeping his FOW and daze away at bay as he helplessly watch natural order calling progenitus for the win.

6th rd: depth
we just had it ID.

quarter finals: merfolk
my 1st 4 spells (trinisphere, trinisphere, natural order and river boa) got countered by FOW fOW daze and FOW. his tarmogoyf and merpok friends tramped me and my friends to death. hehehe

at the end of the day - i finished 6th getting set of standstills!
i'd say mireboa is superb! i never regret including him in the MD over tarmo. :)

[delcameron]

Other than against the Stasis deck (where they're essentially the best card in the world), how were the Scryb Rangers? People came up with a lot of theoretical uses for them, but they still seem a bit...meh?

In at least three of the 18-20 matches I played it served very well as the much needed 3rd or 4th mana, usually bouncing then playing a Forest when I was land-short. Must admit I never had a chance to have fun with its Flash -- like casting it to block a swinging V Clique, surprise! -- but the optimistic anticipation alone is enough to make me enjoy playing Scryb Ranger. That and that it flies, so very often it's free Jitte counters until it meets with removal.


Any way we can maybe improve the mono-black or B/x control deck matchup? I've started to see a lot of that around here as well.

There are a few Rock decks in my current meta, as well as some monoblack beats with LD, Abyssal Persecutor (yet another reason to hate Cabal Therapy) and Korlash. The discard is really the killer, when I have to mull to 6 because a normally keepable hand now reallys sucks after turn 1 Duress. So I say, Eternal Witness. I'll say it, he's another dood for equipment or NO... but also he can get you back to your hand a Chalice you lost to Duress, and he do it turn two if you're nice. It's not prevalent in my meta, but the few ones there are here are sticking around and being rough on my stats.

Thing is, where to put the Witness (in all her FNM-foily splendor:cool:)? Maybe, lose 1 Viper and 1 3Sphere for 2. The ANT presence is diminishing so maybe I wouldn't miss the 4th 3Sphere, although Zoo is getting popular and the shiny globe is so useful here. -- I had the pleasure of landing a turn 1 3Sphere (on the draw, but still) against Zoo and the odds of hitting that are already low... dunno. -- Also, both the MB and SB seem too tight right now to fit a new card.

SB note: I still haven't gotten fun use of Snakeform yet, like targeting Abyssal Persecutor.

I am playing what will probably be a 40-50 player event this Saturday and I may try a Witness or two. I'm also looking forward to hearing if anyone else has ideas on how to help the Rock/monoblack control MUs.

[Davmeister84]

In at least three of the 18-20 matches I played it served very well as the much needed 3rd or 4th mana, usually bouncing then playing a Forest when I was land-short. Must admit I never had a chance to have fun with its Flash -- like casting it to block a swinging V Clique, surprise! -- but the optimistic anticipation alone is enough to make me enjoy playing Scryb Ranger. That and that it flies, so very often it's free Jitte counters until it meets with removal.



There are a few Rock decks in my current meta, as well as some monoblack beats with LD, Abyssal Persecutor (yet another reason to hate Cabal Therapy) and Korlash. The discard is really the killer, when I have to mull to 6 because a normally keepable hand now reallys sucks after turn 1 Duress. So I say, Eternal Witness. I'll say it, he's another dood for equipment or NO... but also he can get you back to your hand a Chalice you lost to Duress, and he do it turn two if you're nice. It's not prevalent in my meta, but the few ones there are here are sticking around and being rough on my stats.

Thing is, where to put the Witness (in all her FNM-foily splendor:cool:)? Maybe, lose 1 Viper and 1 3Sphere for 2. The ANT presence is diminishing so maybe I wouldn't miss the 4th 3Sphere, although Zoo is getting popular and the shiny globe is so useful here. -- I had the pleasure of landing a turn 1 3Sphere (on the draw, but still) against Zoo and the odds of hitting that are already low... dunno. -- Also, both the MB and SB seem too tight right now to fit a new card.

SB note: I still haven't gotten fun use of Snakeform yet, like targeting Abyssal Persecutor.

I am playing what will probably be a 40-50 player event this Saturday and I may try a Witness or two. I'm also looking forward to hearing if anyone else has ideas on how to help the Rock/monoblack control MUs.

I'd drop one NO and one 3Sphere for 2 Witnesses. Both are cards you only ever really need 1 of, especially NO, and they're both not cards, especially NO, you especially need turn 1. Maybe board the 4th 3Sphere if you're worried about ANT in the meta.

[MrShine]

I agree w/ dropping 1 NO and 1 3Sphere for Eternal Witness; I play these guys in the Rock, and they are just awesome sauce. That being said, if you are looking for better game vs Rock decks I would opt for something with Opponent shroud/regular shroud; I'm sure Troll Astetic has been hashed and re-hashed many times over but it has definite value vs tons of spot removal. On the other hand, the deck is weak to Enginnered Explosives/Deed... I don't know what to suggest to remedy this specifically but K Grip is good and Eternal Witness also has value here (getting back lost equipment). I think the best plan is to try and match card advantage as best as you can w/ equipment/Viper/Witness and play around board sweepers.

Against mono-black or B/x, though, there is more of a problem of redundant NON-targeted removal... all I can say in that case is try to match card advantage with them again (witness seems good here too). Chalice @ 1 is better here than traditional rock builds as they aren't as likely to run 4+ vindicate effects, just more 1 drop removal (STP, Innocent blood).

I think the takeaway message here though is that these kinds of decks prey on creature based strategies (that don't vomit their hand onto the table ala goblins), you are at a disadvantage and should just try to push through a Progenitus as fast as possible.

PS- Congrats on your finish Seb!

[Davmeister84]

Other ways to answer The Rock or MBC:
Compost (It's cheap, it keeps your hand delightfully filled)
Lifeforce (If you're going for incredibly obsure and green heavy answers)
Reap (Witness on crack against MBC or even Rock)

[delcameron]

Other ways to answer The Rock or MBC:
Compost (It's cheap, it keeps your hand delightfully filled)
Lifeforce (If you're going for incredibly obsure and green heavy answers)
Reap (Witness on crack against MBC or even Rock)

Compost seems the viable one in this list. For Lifeforce to be useful, you have to keep two green mana open and doing this early slows down every else you're trying to do, like landing more than one creature early to prevent the Edict effects of MBC. As for Reap it's pretty interesting, but I'm not sure about a play that's only really worth it if he's got a good board presence, whereas Compost seems to pay off early and fast.


I agree w/ dropping 1 NO and 1 3Sphere for Eternal Witness; I play these guys in the Rock, and they are just awesome sauce. That being said, if you are looking for better game vs Rock decks I would opt for something with Opponent shroud/regular shroud; I'm sure Troll Astetic has been hashed and re-hashed many times over but it has definite value vs tons of spot removal.

Yeah, I'm not too fond of the Ascetic at first glance. Truth be told its in the Viper's slot and I can't lose that (though I could be brought to cut one). The shroud does sound nice, and it just made me think I might run a Lightning Greaves in my monowhite Stoneforge deck... but I don't see it here. Somehow sweepers are almost as feared as spot removal -- especially with black's Perish, Damnation, and Dystopia -- so I don't count on wasting "ability space" on shroud when instead I could get deathtouch and free cards.


On the other hand, the deck is weak to Enginnered Explosives/Deed... I don't know what to suggest to remedy this specifically but K Grip is good and Eternal Witness also has value here (getting back lost equipment). I think the best plan is to try and match card advantage as best as you can w/ equipment/Viper/Witness and play around board sweepers.

Lucky me, I haven't seen a Deed on my opponent's board in months; and as for E Ex only a few decks run it (Landstill), but it is a nuisance. Especially recurred. Indeed, Witness is starting to sound lovely.


Against mono-black or B/x, though, there is more of a problem of redundant NON-targeted removal... all I can say in that case is try to match card advantage with them again (witness seems good here too). Chalice @ 1 is better here than traditional rock builds as they aren't as likely to run 4+ vindicate effects, just more 1 drop removal (STP, Innocent blood).

Damn straight, not just sweepers but edict effects too. Witness is lovely.


I think the takeaway message here though is that these kinds of decks prey on creature based strategies (that don't vomit their hand onto the table ala goblins), you are at a disadvantage and should just try to push through a Progenitus as fast as possible.

PS- Congrats on your finish Seb!

Un gros merci MrShine!

[MrShine]

Other ways to answer The Rock or MBC:
Compost (It's cheap, it keeps your hand delightfully filled)
Lifeforce (If you're going for incredibly obsure and green heavy answers)
Reap (Witness on crack against MBC or even Rock)

I agree with delcameron that compost is probably the only good option; lifefore is interesting but too much of a mana commitment in this kind of deck. Reap isnt at all as effective as it seems because Rock/MBC barely plays any black permanents at all; the most you'll see is a stray Bob OR Phyrexian Arena. One should look to migitgating their removal to some extent instead.

@ delcameron - I just had a thought... how about gigapede? It costs alot, but in a deck with all this extra mana production (Garruk, ancient tomb) I could see him getting out to play now and then. He's got Shroud, which kicks control's ass (until they find a humility) and is recurrable... Seems good in the abstract but perhaps resolving NO is a better use of one's resources... you'd only need one, though, so maybe its worth testing

[delcameron]

I just had a thought... how about gigapede? It costs alot, but in a deck with all this extra mana production (Garruk, ancient tomb) I could see him getting out to play now and then. He's got Shroud, which kicks control's ass (until they find a humility) and is recurrable... Seems good in the abstract but perhaps resolving NO is a better use of one's resources... you'd only need one, though, so maybe its worth testing

Egad what a creature...maybe a 5/1 for :2::g::g: could be more usable. And despite all the Hierarchs, Tombs, Rangers, ESGs and Garruks, I don't often feel I have any "spare" mana... landing a fast swarm and paying for equipment means not having to pay five mana all at once, maybe more than once or twice.

Also, about Compost, I looked at my SB and couldn't find a place for it:

//sb
Choke 3
Tormod's Crypt 3
Krosan Grip 4
Snakeform 3
Sword of Fire and Ice 2

The first thought is to lose a SoFI, but too much tribal doesn't allow it. KGrip stays at 4 (just 1 Wickerbough MD) and even if I haven't seen Ichorid in a while I still wanna have at least 3 Crypts waiting for him. Leaves Snakeform... but then I'm screwed against Reanimator fatties other than Iona. (One time in this MU before the era of Snakeform, I had Crypted his Iona and now had room to breathe, but he then topdecked a Blazing Archon and Show and Telled it in. I had nothing that could be done, scoop.)

Now that I think about it, it's not just the Iona that scoffs at Snakeform: Empyrial Archangel, Inkwell Leviathan, and Sphinx of the Steel Wind all have shroud or pro:g:. So like, just Archon can be snaked? And in other MUs, maybe a Tombstalker or Goyf... dunno. Snakeform might be finding the bench soon. But now what to do against Reanimator?

The 4th Crypt has gotta go back in. For the last two SB slots, is there something that could hurt both M:b:C and Reanimator?

[delcameron]

By the way paeng4983, I see you run 4 Snakeform SB. I'm still hoping they'll have a chance to be gamebreaking... how are they working out for you?

[paK0]

Mh I think of playing this in the near future, but I fell like I have trouble with my Zoo MU. Is it really bad or am I just retarded?

[ryO!]

another disapointing report
2-3 ...
Mint unlim signed mox emerald was the 1st loot

got there with this list

[2x] Llanowar Elves
[2x] Fyndhorn Elves
[4x] Tarmogoyf
[3x] Orhan Viper
[4x] Elvish Spirit Guide
[3x] Scryb Ranger
//spells
[4x] Natural Order
[4x] Chalice of the Void
[3x] Sylvian Lybrary
[3x] Trinisphere
[3x] Garruk Wildspeaker
[3x] Umezawa's Jitte
[1x] SoFI
[1x] Progenitus
//Land
[8x] Forest
[4x] Misty Rainforest
[4x] Ancient Tomb
[4x] Wasteland
//SB
[4x] Choke
[4x] Krosen Grip
[2x] Faerie Macabre
[2x] Tormods crypt
[2x] pithing needle
[1x] Sofi

#1 vs rock Bwg
i don't really remember but in G1 & G3 a progenitus turn 3 made it
2-1
1-0

#2 vs reanimator
it's like a no chance MU uless u go chalice @ 1 t1
g1 turn 2 shpinx turn 3 iona ...
g2 turn 3 SnT iiona but i already got online tarmo+viper+jitte on SnT, BUT his turn 4 is perish ...
this MU seems like a dead end to me.
0-2
1-1

#3 vs land deck but not 43lands just smth better
g1 i got him to 12 and then he got every annoying land online i can't recover i scoop
g2 turn 3 progenitus with only one land, it s too much for him i win
g3 turn 4 progenitus + tarmo, i got him to 6 then he chasm + Zuran + many other land ... so i eventually die. I made a missplay, midgame playing macabre wrongly, it wouldn't have saved me but i guess that would have end up in a draw.
hard MU
1-2
1-2

#4 vs goblin
wtf ... i got crushed 5 times in a row (we played more than 2 games since both were fast.)
hard mu i guess ...
0-2
1-3

#5 vs elf ball
g1 turn 2 chalice turn 3 trini
g2 turn 2 chalice turn 3 trini
2-0
2-3

overall i am really satisfied with Sylvan it help a DAMN lot and i do not regret the lack of Wickerbough MD or the 3trini
it seriously gives the deck more consitency
on the other hand i find some MU alsmot unwinable like reanimator, landdeck, damn goblin is hard (although elves > hierach vs goblin)
Mono colored deck doesn't seems to fit in the actual MU. or at least mine.

[Arsenal_Fan]

I was wanting to know everyone's opinions about the Goblins MU. It seems really difficult if they drop Lackey which is basically what Goblins mulls to most of the time anyway.

[RexFTW]

you have several turn 1 blockers you can play vs lackey and its even better if you play first. first turn trinisphere is even better :).

[paeng4983]

you wont lose that easy to goblins
you can pull off a 1st turn trinisphere
you your regenerating snakes
you have your jitte/s
you have your cotvs

[delcameron]

Another fun thing to do against Gobs if you're on the draw and have nothing better to do, and if he has lackey, play a fetch. On his turn if he swings with Lackey just fetch into Dryad Arbor and block. :)

I'm coming back to this deck after a short absence, trying a list with 2 Finks, 2 Scryb Ranger, 3 Ohran Viper, 4 Goyf as my attack dudes. I look forward to playing tomorrow and reporting back here soon.

[delcameron]

Is anyone still testing this deck/playing it competitively? Is the 4 Snakeform SB still viable in your meta?

[paeng4983]

Is anyone still testing this deck/playing it competitively? Is the 4 Snakeform SB still viable in your meta?

hello there!
i still do.
as a fact,here in the philippines,we have an upcoming major legacy
tourney this weekend. im going to pilot this deck again.
and snakeform is one of my prominent SB.
if you're expecting a heavy aggro meta
you can use 4 of it.

here's my decklist
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34382
i'd still prefer the snakes (mireboa) over tarmo
because of the regenerate ability it has and it is
superb if my opponent has a swamp on his table, especially
if it has jitte on her.

:)

:)

[delcameron]

You run no Goyfs?? I mean, I've considered running just 3 or even 2, but having none seems... odd. In my experience, the annoying removals are StP/Path and Edict effects, so the regenerate ability doesn't seem that beneficial. Not beneficial enough, anyway, that I'd take the snakes over Goyf.

Also I was wondering about Choke. Obviously you bring it in vs. Landstill, but is it worth bringing it in vs. Merfolks, Mystic Control, Bant, or anything else for that matter?

[Vacrix]

hello there!
i still do.
as a fact,here in the philippines,we have an upcoming major legacy
tourney this weekend. im going to pilot this deck again.
and snakeform is one of my prominent SB.
if you're expecting a heavy aggro meta
you can use 4 of it.

here's my decklist
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34382
i'd still prefer the snakes (mireboa) over tarmo
because of the regenerate ability it has and it is
superb if my opponent has a swamp on his table, especially
if it has jitte on her.

:)

:)
Except for the lack of Goyf, I think your list looks pretty strong. River/Mire Boa looks pretty dam strong with equipment. Have you considered running more? The fact that they can connect with Swamp/Island walk makes SoLS and SoFI more enticing to me. I agree with delcameron though, you should probably run a few Goyfs. At least 3 so you can have the '3 Goyf rule' or else green cannot win in legacy.

[paeng4983]

@ delcameron
the night before the tournament, i felt that the majority of decks then would have a splashed of either by green or black. so i took out the goyfs and made mireboa as a replacement for it. and i was correct with my prediction, BGx rock, merfolk, sui black and zoo dominated our meta last 27th of march 2010.
if my memory serves me right, the decks that i faced were: merfolk (win), reanimator (win), RG beats (win), UGr fae (draw), uwbg counter sliver (win), dark depths (draw). my only lost was from merfolk where i drew 4 straight lands and from there, i never recovered from the +1/+1 lord effects.

i prefer the 7 or 8 snakes because of these reasons:
- as vacrix pointed it out, they will connect because of the swamp/islandWALK ability they have.
- that i'd love them do the connection especially if i they have jitte/ sofi on them.
- the regenerate ability is awesome! they can go up against any big creatures of the opposing table, provided that the said opposing creature has no trample on it.

and about the choke, i normally bring it in against any blue deck/s.

^_^ unfortunately, i think i'll be using TES for this weekend's game because most of the pieces of this deck are with my team mates.

@vacrix
green can still win even without tarmo.

have anyone here try to run this deck without the garruks?
i mean, from my experience - garruk does nothing good for me.

[ryO!]

@goyf vs the snakes i guess it worth a try but then i guess more equipment would be relevant. I ll give it a try so i don't have to switch my goyf from MGCA to CtopBant ! And lest s be honnest winning without goyfs especially playing green is awesome!

@Choke, it's damn relevant and win some mu on itself, it's totally useless against merfolk though...Against Bant it depends, thing is they got NH so it more or less nullify the choke effect.

@Goblin, it's a really hard MU and contrary to what some said here, the overall MU advantage if much more their side, but we do have outs like CoTv @ 1 trini, but both of them have to be played turn 1, after that it s often too late.

@Garruk, well, each time i drew it i was happy about it, it can do some many things i d never cut it in the deck

@No one else but me is truly satisfied by Sylvan Library MD ? it so damn help the deck to be more stable and avoid multiple land draw ...

@paeng4983 how can you win vs reanimator or Survival bant for that matter ? i mean iona = 99,99% of time GG unless you got jitte on table and at least 2 creatures ...

[delcameron]

@ delcameron
i prefer the 7 or 8 snakes because of these reasons:
- as vacrix pointed it out, they will connect because of the swamp/islandWALK ability they have.
- that i'd love them do the connection especially if i they have jitte/ sofi on them.
- the regenerate ability is awesome! they can go up against any big creatures of the opposing table, provided that the said opposing creature has no trample on it.

I have had fun with the islandwalk a few times, but I can't imagine putting 7-8 snakes and committing that much to the regenerate-is-good strategy. I see a few downsides to this build though. There are too many other good creatures, and missing out on them just to landwalk/regen may be costly. Our meta has loads of white RFG removal, regen is good but not great. I'm keeping 2 Scryb Ranger and 4 Goyf, and I'm now trying 2 Kitchen Finks. Playing 4 NO, Finks' persist is almost abusive: 3+4=7 mana gives you a Prog, a 2/1 dude (Edict effect backup), and 4 life to boot. As for the flying Ranger, she usually gives easy Jitte counters (like snakes can) but also has the surprise blocker option.


and about the choke, i normally bring it in against any blue deck/s.


it's totally useless against merfolk though...Against Bant it depends, thing is they got NH so it more or less nullify the choke effect.

I was leaning towards not putting it in for Merfolk either. I'll surely do +4 Snakeform +2 K Grip -4 NO -1 Prog -1 Trinisphere.


have anyone here try to run this deck without the garruks? i mean, from my experience - garruk does nothing good for me.

I am flabbergasted by this comment. Garruk has been a machine for me 99% of the time, the 1% being when I only had one green mana source. Even then, I could draw Elvish Spirit Guide, play Garruk, and have two green mana starting next turn. Also, the automatic 3/3 dude is too useful, and some of my best explosive openings have been turn 2 Garruk turn 3 Prog for a fast and well backed up victory. I run 3 and I love it.


@Garruk, well, each time i drew (Garruk) i was happy about it, it can do some many things i d never cut it in the deck

Word.


@Goblin, it's a really hard MU and contrary to what some said here, the overall MU advantage if much more their side, but we do have outs like CoTv @ 1 trini, but both of them have to be played turn 1, after that it s often too late.

Indeed, for this matchup I mull more agressively than usual, needing the Chalice or Trinisphere badly. Even with an solid opening hand just full of good dudes, it's very tough to win. If they come out even mildly well, you cannot out-aggro the Gobbos.


@No one else but me is truly satisfied by Sylvan Library MD ? it so damn help the deck to be more stable and avoid multiple land draw ...

I have found it underwhelming, but to be fair I've only landed it once. The thing is, I've drawn it a number of times and at those moments I wanted it to be anything else. I could eventually try a build running 3 Library and an extra fetch (for a total of 5), to ensure I get the early Library then try to shuffle away the others.

When all is said and done, I am still considering bringing back 3 River Boa, losing 2 Scryb Ranger and 1 Goyf.

I'm playtesting tonight, I hope to bring back great Snakeform anecdotes.:wink:

[paeng4983]

@delcameron

Our meta has loads of white RFG removal
our meta last march was more of disrupt and aggro. that's why i opted running 7 snakes.
but for this weekend's tournament, i bet they'll be packing RFG and spot removals
(PTE, STP, vindicate, and the like), and if ever i'll pick this deck, i might adopt your
suggestion, adding finks in the MD and i might bring back the goyfs in for added muscle.


I am flabbergasted by this comment. Garruk has been a machine for me 99% of the time,
as a fact, i never drew my garruks in the 13 sanctioned games i played with chalice aggro. that's why
i never know how strong he is in this deck. :)


I was leaning towards not putting it in for Merfolk either. I'll surely do +4 Snakeform +2 K Grip -4 NO -1 Prog -1 Trinisphere
though im not comfy ,i'll give this SB against merfolk a try. im just wondering, why did you removed the NOs and prog?

[delcameron]

I side out NO/Prog against Merfolk because I don't find NO as good an option when 1) the opponent runs FoW and 2) I have plenty of good cards to side in.

This evening's minitourney had me lose to monoR Goblins... again. Granted, I got stuck on one forest for a while (mulled to 6 and no luck). But early on he just shat his hand into play. I couldn't cast Viper, Finks, Garruk; they were all stuck in my hand while he abused the hell out of a Lackey'd-in Kiki-Jiki. I'll give this deck one more week -- if it remains inconsistent (mulls) and underwhelming, I'm switching back to D&T.

[Vacrix]

@vacrix
green can still win even without tarmo.

have anyone here try to run this deck without the garruks?
i mean, from my experience - garruk does nothing good for me.
I was trolling man. Obviously green can win without Goyf.

Garruk is a good way to ignore your own Trinisphere's and eventually Overrun. I'm surprised you don't use it. It can also provide you with a bear to hold equipment.

[RexFTW]

garruk is amazing against merefolk. Dont forget he is an overrun to end the game against agro. If you REALLY want to replace him try phantom centaur in his slot.

[Nicote]

Hello!

I have been reading this forum recently and looking at the decks people here suggest. This one draw my attention and I have decided to play it.

But one question came to my mind. In my meta there are a few Iona and Emrakul decks. They have become popular lately. So I was thinking how to deal with them without having Yitte on board and with counters on it.

If Iona names green I don't think there's much we could do about it.

A hard casted Emrakul is also tricky.

*** Would the SB inclusion of http://www.magiccards.info/query?q=oran+rief+recluse&v=card&s=cname Oran Rief Reclusebe viable in legacy? I don't expect that many Reanimator/Iona Survival/Emrakul decks but I don't like the idea of an auto-loose MU.

Thanks!

[Grollub]

Is anyone still testing this deck/playing it competitively?

Last friday it won the local legacy FNM with ~20 players. It ran Fallow Earth and Rishadan Port to complement the disruption, and from what I saw didn't use the Llanowar Elves package. The kills I saw mostly involved Garruk and manlands.

[paeng4983]

Hello!

I have been reading this forum recently and looking at the decks people here suggest. This one draw my attention and I have decided to play it.

But one question came to my mind. In my meta there are a few Iona and Emrakul decks. They have become popular lately. So I was thinking how to deal with them without having Yitte on board and with counters on it.

If Iona names green I don't think there's much we could do about it.

A hard casted Emrakul is also tricky.

*** Would the SB inclusion of http://www.magiccards.info/query?q=oran+rief+recluse&v=card&s=cname Oran Rief Reclusebe viable in legacy? I don't expect that many Reanimator/Iona Survival/Emrakul decks but I don't like the idea of an auto-loose MU.

Thanks!

oran rief recluse's kicker is too expensive for us to pay, not to mentioned it's CC.
i saw someone suggested that we can use master of the wild hunt for this deck.
what do you say guys?
i would like to give MOTHW a try over selkie/ viper.

[Nicote]

oran rief recluse's kicker is too expensive for us to pay, not to mentioned it's CC.
i saw someone suggested that we can use master of the wild hunt for this deck.
what do you say guys?
i would like to give MOTHW a try over selkie/ viper.

Interesting suggestion. We could even equip those wolfes. But isn't it too slow? And it's a 4 drop. I think that 5 mana for the Oran Rif would be faster.
Thing is Oran Rief is only good for those specific MU (Iona and Emrakul) and MOTWH is more sinergetic in this deck.

We also have Whirlwind but it's no good against Iona.

http://www.magiccards.info/query?q=skyshooter&v=card&s=cname Skyshooter would also be an option. We could drop it turn 2 and deal with those nasty creatures. Would also deal with Tombstalkers.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Did someone REALLY suggest a green card vs. Iona? Derp.
Although, Trinisphere is really important vs. Reanimator and Shelldrazi, and I still stand by Tangle Wire as a double-Time Walk in early stages of the game.
EDIT: Skyshooter is better than the other tech that people other than me suggested.

[ryO!]

Did someone REALLY suggest a green card vs. Iona? Derp.
Although, Trinisphere is really important vs. Reanimator and Shelldrazi, and I still stand by Tangle Wire as a double-Time Walk in early stages of the game.

Iona = unless u got jitte on table and at least 2 creatures =>> auto loss @ g1 (that is to say reanimator/survival)
u only can deal with it with your SB, MD i dont think anything can help ... unless T2 trini/chalice for 1
and GL playin Oran rief with iona on table ...
I am not very convince with MOTWH either ... as whereas garruk it eats any random removal

[Nicote]

Iona = unless u got jitte on table and at least 2 creatures =>> auto loss @ g1 (that is to say reanimator/survival)
u only can deal with it with your SB, MD i dont think anything can help ... unless T2 trini/chalice for 1
and GL playin Oran rief with iona on table ...
I am not very convince with MOTWH either ... as whereas garruk it eats any random removal

So Iona g1 is loss. After SB maybe with Tormod's or Relic we have an answer.

And what about Emrakul? I noticed that it is seeing play lately.

[paeng4983]

So Iona g1 is loss. After SB maybe with Tormod's or Relic we have an answer.

And what about Emrakul? I noticed that it is seeing play lately.

do you guys consider wheel of sun and moon as a replacement over the tormod's?

[Pastorofmuppets]

Advantages of Tangle Wire:
-Can be dropped turn 2 vs. combo, keeping their lands tapped down
-Mountain-Lackey becomes slightly less problematic, giving you time to drop a Scryb Ranger during the upkeep
-Scryb Ranger will let you drop lands again and untap a creature, giving you a slight advantage
-It's a must-counter for Reanimator (barring Exhume), so turn 1 Chalice @ 1 followed by Tangle Wire should be enough to trip them up, giving you some time to land a Goyf and start beating face.
-Gives Pridemage something to target that isn't Jitte or Sphere
-Awesome Synergy with Garruk
-Taps Cities for Ichorid, plinking them for a few extra points of life

Disadvantages
-Does nothing vs. free counters (Merfolk)
-Does nothing against Entomb-Exhume
-A mere speed bump for Zoo, they'll just use their removal on your dudes until time's up
-Not the best play vs. other stompybase decks.

I still think it's a legitimate choice in the right meta, and it gives us an extra few turns to beat ANT into the danger zone.
We already have more than enough tools to edge out Reanimator and Shelldrazi, but it's a tight race. I might try out Smokestack in place of my wires for some amount of time.

[Nicote]

do you guys consider wheel of sun and moon as a replacement over the tormod's?

I don't. It only works with the cards that will go from now on to the graveyard. What went before remains there so you can't empty it. I still prefer Tormod's. And stick to Tormod's over Relic, so your Goyf stays fat.

[Nicote]

By the way.

What do you think about changing the four Goyfs for 4 Troll Ascetic? I know it is one turn slower. But it has it's advantages in a deck relying on equipments to win. Mainly to avoid removal after equip and loose a lot of time/mana. It is also good to put counters on jitte. You can always equip and attack because it has regenerate. You also don't depend on having cards in graveyards. It is also good protecting Garruk for the same reason. (regenerate)

Thoughts on that?

[RexFTW]

Has anyone considered running vengevine in this deck with either survival of the fittest or wild mongrel?

[RexFTW]

By the way.

What do you think about changing the four Goyfs for 4 Troll Ascetic? I know it is one turn slower. But it has it's advantages in a deck relying on equipments to win. Mainly to avoid removal after equip and loose a lot of time/mana. It is also good to put counters on jitte. You can always equip and attack because it has regenerate. You also don't depend on having cards in graveyards. It is also good protecting Garruk for the same reason. (regenerate)

Thoughts on that?

Cut any card but they goyf. I tried cutting goyf and lost a ton of games. Hes pretty important.

[delcameron]

I'm thinking of playing this deck again soon, I like its lock on Lands and other obvious stuff. 3 Viper, 3-4 Scryb. Has there been any testing or results recently?

[Pastorofmuppets]

Also, I've tested Tangle Wire in here.
I like it when it works, but sometimes it just doesn't.
Against combo it gives you a solid 1-2 turns.

[RexFTW]

***new set spoilers***


Green Sun's Zenith xg
Sorcery Rare
Search your library for a green creature card with converted mana cost X or less and put it onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library. Shuffle Green Sun's Zenith into its owner's library.

Green sun's zenith: better than mystical tutor? Probably not. Good enough to see significant play? probably so! Notably for this deck its a 1 mana tutor that dodges chalice.

Significantly, it allows us to play sideboard tool box things that were unplayable before like 1x Gaddock Teeg.

Wish you drew a llanowar elf? x=0, get dryad arbor!
Graveyard ruining your day? Try Loaming Shaman !
Merefolk troubles? Just grab a Scryb Ranger!
Jitte or Choke got destroyed? Bring out the eternal witness!

Got garruk with 2 ancient tombs? Bring out the big guns, PROGENITUS!!!!

This just seems like its incredibly good in any deck that makes significant mana.



Thrun, the Last Troll 2gg
Legendary Creature - Troll Shaman Mythic Rare
Thrun, the Last Troll can't be countered.
Thrun can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control.
1{G}: Regenerate Thrun.

Yeah baby! This might just be better than Garruk because of his insane ability to carry an unstoppable jitte to victory!


Lead the Stampede
2g
Sorcery Uncommon
Look at the top five cards of your library. You may reveal any number of creature cards from among them and put the revealed cards into your hand. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in any order.
Illus. Efrem Palacios #82/155

Is this better than ohran viper or river selkie? probably. This deck plays ~ 26 dudes, and they are what you usually want to be drawing anyway. Note it lets you put prog back!

With the decline of Survival perish should be less of an issue. Now we need better answers to the "new" guys: Affinity and Rock decks.
Seeds of Innocence
null rod
compost
seem like a good place to start!

[mtgtrinket]

Hi everyone, i've been thinking of a mono green ancient tomb aggro deck (http://mtgtrinket.blogspot.com/2011/03/brainstorming-mono-green-tomb-aggro.html) that is akin to chalice aggro, but focuses more on landing threats instead of disruption. In addition to Natural Order, Phyrexian Hydra can kill in 2 turns too, and Primeval Titan can be powered out via Grim Monolith on turn 2 (fetching 2 Wastelands). I think the merit of this strategy is that it is likely to best other aggro decks (eg Zoo, Goblins) easily.

However, the deck is still a pile and I wish to know your inputs on it, since you've probably more experience in this archetype than I do.

[RexFTW]

I have played 4 tournaments in the last few weeks with this deck. I have made top 2 in all 4. Yes, this deck is quite strong still.

[RexFTW]

Hi everyone, i've been thinking of a mono green ancient tomb aggro deck that is akin to chalice aggro, but focuses more on landing threats instead of disruption. In addition to Natural Order, Phyrexian Hydra can kill in 2 turns too, and Primeval Titan can be powered out via Grim Monolith on turn 2 (fetching 2 Wastelands). I think the merit of this strategy is that it is likely to best other aggro decks (eg Zoo, Goblins) easily.

However, the deck is still a pile and I wish to know your inputs on it, since you've probably more experience in this archetype than I do.

I have played both meandeck MUD and this deck in several tourneys.

First let me tell you about green stompy. It is focused on devastating turn 1 plays. For example, there are very few answers to a turn 1 spawnwrithe and many decks just fold to a turn 1 chalice of the void. It is very much a metagame deck that has efficient creatures + jittes for agro and chalice + trinisphere + choke for control/combo. It has a special potency against blue decks because trinisphere and choke are both so insanely strong against them.

Meandeck mud is not an aggro deck or a control deck. It is a combo deck. The chalices in the board are to give you a chance against zoo and combo. The plan is simple, resolve forgemaster, equip lightning greaves, fetch blightsteel collosus, equip greaves, win. There is a backup plan of actually playing large artifact creatures and welder is there to fight blue.

If you want to play big creatures like this, i recommend starting with something like this list:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20149-2nd-at-That-s-Entertainment-with-Turbo-Drazi

The guy that started this thread has done decent in several tournaments and people have been playing his list on MTGO with some success as well.

[Koby]

Do you have an updated list RexFTW?

[mtgtrinket]

@ RexFTW

Yes I understand the power of Chalice and Trini, though the idea posted doesn't focus on that. In addition, it's not just playing with large creatures. Instead, the idea is to land a threat early that can end the game fast.

As per the blog post, turn 2 Natural Order will probably seal the deal against gobs, fish, and zoo. In addition, a fast Phyrexian Hydra will at least give plentiful card advantage against decks with just burn as removal (if not win the game outright). 3gg should be easy to achieve with the mana accelerants available in this format.

Primeval Titan brings Wastelands, making it a pseudo 2-turn clock (time gained via disruption), though it'll be perhaps turn 3-4 before it lands (unless you managed to draw the sequence mentioned in the blog post).

Instead of rehashing the blog post, let me point out a possible value of building mono green in such a direction: the threats highlighted just now win the game if unhandled, and are better top-decks when you're winning, breaks a stalemate, and can stem an onslaught when you're losing. Chalice and Trini might not be able to do all those.

[bakofried]

I'm interested in throwing this thing together. Does anyone have a list they'd like to share?

[paeng4983]

I have played 4 tournaments in the last few weeks with this deck. I have made top 2 in all 4. Yes, this deck is quite strong still.

same here! i used this deck in 2nd saturday of march turney where we
played 4rounds of swiss. i landed 2nd as well.
the meta were ANT, elfball, reanimator, gobs, sui, infect and soul sisters, counterTOP.

btw, does anyone here tried using GSZ?
is GSZ that good?

[Zirath]

Hey guys, thinking about trying this deck out. I'm having a lot of trouble putting together a starting list since many lists I've seen are completely outdated. Here's what I've got so far:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Progenitus
2 Spawnwrithe
2 Cold-Eye Selkie
4 River Boa

2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Natural Order
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Dryad Arbor
7 Forest

Not sure what this deck looks like exactly right now since cards like Green Sun's Zenith seem really strong in it. Any help/advice would appreciated.

[kiblast]

So, Beast Within gives an istant velocity Vindicate to this deck. Worth testing!

Beast Within 2G

Istant

Destroy target permanent. Its controller puts a 3/3 green beast creature token on the battlefield.

Also recycles additional Trinispheres and Chalices into 3/3's at instant speed.

[tsabo_tavoc]

What a dream card^^ An auto include and here is a sample decklist:

3 Forest
3 Snow-Covered Forest
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
3 Chrome Mox

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Loaming Shaman
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Terastodon
1 Progenitus

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Beast Within
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Natural Order

[boneclub24]

That's odd, I've been running nearly the exact same list xD

Land: 18
7 Forest
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills

Creatures: 18
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Spawnwrithe
1 Progenitus
1 Terastodon
1 Kitchen Finks (was undecided)
1 Eternal Witness

Spells: 24
4 Natural Order
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Beast Within
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Chrome Mox

Sideboard: 15
4 Krosan Grip
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Choke
3 Umezawa's Jitte

[tsabo_tavoc]

That's odd, I've been running nearly the exact same list xD

cool list
Indeed, basically -1 Garruk, -1 Loaming, +2 Spawnwrithe. I applaud hard for the 3 Chrome Moxes as an excellent way to dump ESG and dead cards.

What is your feeling about Spawnwrithe? I hate cutting it but the pet rarely enters the battlefield on turn1. I think the 3cc creatures are just meta slots anyway.

[boneclub24]

Indeed, basically -1 Garruk, -1 Loaming, +2 Spawnwrithe. I applaud hard for the 3 Chrome Moxes as an excellent way to dump ESG and dead cards.

What is your feeling about Spawnwrithe? I hate cutting it but the pet rarely enters the battlefield on turn1. I think the 3cc creatures are just meta slots anyway.

I really like Spawnwrithe right now. He would be better if we mained Jitte, but he is still pretty great. However, I agree it might just be my meta full of X/1s (Bob, Lavamancer, Faeries, ect)

[Michael Keller]

I was always looking for a way to fit Spawnwrithe into the initial build. The problem was focusing too much on the initial turn, which in some ways can be truly devastating against the right decks. In other cases, however, Spawnwrithe never really maximized its usefulness because by the time it went online an opponent already had an opportunity open to deal with it whether it was by removal or combat.

One of the original ideas of the creation was to exploit land-walking (in this case "Islandwalk") to deal with the rise of Merfolk at the time of its explosion of popularity. Cards like River Boa also exploited the classic "Regeneration" ability by using Umezawa's Jitte to guarantee it not only survives combat damage, but picks up counters as well. Being able to sneak by Merfolk and kill its threats and the opponent at the same time turned out to be critical in the overall foundation of the deck's design strategy, which worked to a "T."

I really think there are a multitude of different ways the deck can go, but the one thing I loved about this deck was its ability to grind out wins the old-fashioned way through the attack step. Equipment shone in this deck for the primary reason it turned creatures that are relatively harmless into immediate threats that must be dealt with. This inherently forces an opponent to utilize removal on a creature that might not deserve removing on its own merits, thus strengthening your late-game with more powerful threats and shoring up all the removal that could have been used later.

[bakofried]

I'm against Chrome Mox and Hierarch - the strong points made against both of them quite a while ago still apply. I'll try to grind a list out on my own - with Mental Misstep coming out and the new toy, this deck is looking pretty sick.

[boneclub24]

I just remembered this card... Call of the Herd. Sure, the tokens aren't exactly above-the-curve, but the spell is pretty on-curve with the deck (:2::g:), and can gain card advantage through the flashback. Just something to think about.

[tsabo_tavoc]

I just remembered this card... Call of the Herd. Sure, the tokens aren't exactly above-the-curve, but the spell is pretty on-curve with the deck (:2::g:), and can gain card advantage through the flashback. Just something to think about.

More often than not it is not CA as the ground is guarded by larger creatures, about the same reason against Spawnwrithe. They seem to be good against Combo and Control, but they are actually too slow. I'd run Gilt-Leaf Ambush over CotH but the slot has just updated to Beast Within .

[GGoober]

Don't forget in situations where you draw multiple dead chrome Moxes, Beast Within allows you to turn those into 3/3 elephants if you are opting for a beatdown while your Trinispheres/Chalices are up. Beast Within is pretty strong in this deck, mainly because it's a flexible instant card that works on your end or on your opponent's permanents, and it complements the lock plan pretty well when you need to hit cards that neutralized your Chalice/Trinisphere gameplan (e.g. Aether Vial, Knights)

[Qweerios]

What do you guys think of Viridian Zealot as a 1-of tutorable Pridemage?

[tsabo_tavoc]

What do you guys think of Viridian Zealot as a 1-of tutorable Pridemage?

If pridemage effect is needed, I would play Qasali Pridemage himself. Besides GSZ, there are 4 Hierarchs to cast him, or in the worse case, he can sit on a Mox. For MD, Beast Within and Terastodon take care of pesty Artiments, but I can see Qasali earn a slot in the SB.

[catmint]

Did you consider using the elf-tribe as the secondary aggro option next to Natural Order?
I am not sure if is better to use the "tribe", because you need a critical amout of elves and therefore have to cut many other good things.
The beauty is that you have a lot of mana, a "swarm" and some very good lords/synergies.

Please comment on my list (flaws, advantages/disadvantages to your lists,...). I am new to this archetype and did not test a lot.



Lands
10 Forest
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures
3 Elvish Archdruid
2 Priest of Titania
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Elvish Champion
2 Imperious Perfect
1 Viridian Zealot
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Devoted Druid
2 Elvish Harbinger
1 Terastodon
1 Progenitus


Spells
2 Beast Within
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere

Sideboard
1 Beast Within
2 Krosan Grip
2 Vexing Shusher
1 Empyrial Archangel
3 Choke
1 Viridian Shaman
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Myr Superion

[tsabo_tavoc]

Did you consider using the elf-tribe as the secondary aggro option next to Natural Order?
I am not sure if is better to use the "tribe", because you need a critical amout of elves and therefore have to cut many other good things.
The beauty is that you have a lot of mana, a "swarm" and some very good lords/synergies.

Please comment on my list (flaws, advantages/disadvantages to your lists,...). I am new to this archetype and did not test.

The first incarnation of G Stompy was Elf Stompy. To tell you the truth, Goyf >> Elf. Granted, Goyf does not tap for mana, but we need only 4 mana to land a Proggy, not 15 to secure a win by Emrakul. The best Elf in your list is Imperious Perfect, which is too slow to be playable.

[Qweerios]

Why fetchlands? Is it to play tricks with Beast Within, Terrastodon, or Dryad Arbor?

[ScatmanX]

Why fetchlands? Is it to play tricks with Beast Within, Terrastodon, or Dryad Arbor?
To tutor up Dryad Arbor.

[evanmartyr]

That, as well as thinning the deck slightly, and ensuring Tarmogoyf gets his +1/+1.

[Koby]

I took one of the above lists to a tournament today. I promptly went 0-4 against the following decks:

Rnd 1 - Dregde
Rnd 2 - Affinity
Rnd 3 - Belcher
Rnd 4 - High Tide

*sigh* First two rounds I didn't see Trinisphere. Last two rounds I didn't see Natural Order.

However, the deck has a very high consistency rate of casting Natural Order as early as turn 2. THis made the day somewhat interesting. We may need something stronger than Progenitus and Terastodon to shore up that weakness.

[uncletiggy]

@catmint

I've been toying around with a similar idea while still trying to stick to the pure speed and disruption of the original version here's where i'm at:


4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Elvish Archdruid
1 Wirewood Savage
1 Ambush Commander
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Progenitus
1 Terastodon

3 Garruk Wildspeaker

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Chrome Mox
4 Beast Within
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order

7 Forest
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Dryad Arbor



These are some other cards I've considered Main Decking:

Primeval Titan
Rampaging Baloths
Ancient Stirrings
Crucible of Worlds
Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
Winter Orb

[titus]

@Uncletiggy - I dug out this thread yesterday due to thinking about what Vorinclex could work in. Fully with you on that. If you can Natural Order him out on turn two, he complements the mana denial plan beautifully.

Think he's definitely worth considering in what looks like a pretty powerful deck to play. Also from the new set, I was wondering if Phyrexian Metamorph might a good sideboard tool against Iona/Emrakul.

[tsabo_tavoc]

Wirewood Savage is cute; Ambush Commander is plainly bad; Elvish Archdruid is worse than Imperious Perfect; Vorinclex... if only he had shroud; Phyrexian Metamorph lacks maindeck interaction (4 Tarmogoyf) but is a OK hate card.

[Koby]

I think even Imperious Perfect is a tad too slow. I was noticing that this deck lacks a solid 2 or 3 drops that isn't protection. We either need more disruption (Root Maze?) or heavier hitters. Root maze is actually really good against Storm combo, including Belcher.

Any thoughts on shoeflying Root Maze in?

[uncletiggy]

Wirewood Savage is cute; Ambush Commander is plainly bad; Elvish Archdruid is worse than Imperious Perfect; Vorinclex... if only he had shroud; Phyrexian Metamorph lacks maindeck interaction (4 Tarmogoyf) but is a OK hate card.

Agreed that imperious is a better choice, and ambush commander only made the list as an alternate win condition for long games where the NO package had been neutered. Your thought's on a replacement? i wanted something that generated blockers as well i'm not convinced yet on his value and thinking of replacing him with the baloths

[tsabo_tavoc]

Agreed that imperious is a better choice, and ambush commander only made the list as an alternate win condition for long games where the NO package had been neutered. Your thought's on a replacement? i wanted something that generated blockers as well i'm not convinced yet on his value and thinking of replacing him with the baloths

There is an answer for all of your requests. Hint: it is a creature that costs :1::g: :laugh:

@Root Maze: Besides the dissynergy with Chalice and 3Sphere, the power level of the card is still questionable. It is a symmetrical effect and the unfairness depends on the number of opposing Fetchlands. Well, if it were that great, why has it never got any love from Elves?

[Koby]

There is an answer for all of your requests. Hint: it is a creature that costs :1::g: :laugh:

@Root Maze: Besides the dissynergy with Chalice and 3Sphere, the power level of the card is still questionable. It is a symmetrical effect and the unfairness depends on the number of opposing Fetchlands. Well, if it were that great, why has it never got any love from Elves?

Very likely in that it's a terrible topdeck, and Elves gets better use from Thorns and Duress effects. Alone Root Maze can't do much. But with the new errata on Winter Orb, it may be worth a second look together. Perhaps also adopting Rishadan Port.

[Koby]

There is an answer for all of your requests. Hint: it is a creature that costs :1::g: :laugh:

@Root Maze: Besides the dissynergy with Chalice and 3Sphere, the power level of the card is still questionable. It is a symmetrical effect and the unfairness depends on the number of opposing Fetchlands. Well, if it were that great, why has it never got any love from Elves?

Very likely in that it's a terrible topdeck, and Elves gets better use from Thorns and Duress effects. Alone Root Maze can't do much. But with the new errata on Winter Orb, it may be worth a second look together. Perhaps also adopting Rishadan Port.

[Al-ucard]

So... What about a more aggro oriented deck? I have very poor experiences concerned at drawing progenitus in this kind of decks, this is because I quit NO Prog.

18 Lands
10 Forest
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland

22 Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Spawnwrithe
3 Briarhorn
3 Thrun, the last Troll

20 Others
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the void
4 Trinisphere
4 Beast Within
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Umezawa's Jitte

60 Total

Thoughts?

[tsabo_tavoc]

Very likely in that it's a terrible topdeck, and Elves gets better use from Thorns and Duress effects. Alone Root Maze can't do much. But with the new errata on Winter Orb, it may be worth a second look together. Perhaps also adopting Rishadan Port.

Do you think a Maze+W Orb lock is better than Chalice+Sphere? This is a Stompy deck and more slots are reserved for threats.

@Al-ucard: Have you tested your list, no GSZ?
A 4/4 uncounterable, irremovable vs a 10/10 unblockable, irremovable is not a fair fight. You can draw 1 Progenitus from time to time, but the odds of drawing both is very low and there are Moxes to dump dead draws.
The general issue with pure aggro is your creatures are 4/4 at best (save for Tarmogoyf) and being laughed by Knight, Tombstalker, unfair Fatties all day long. Equipments are nice but prone to in-response-equip-removal! kind of tempo swing.

[Al-ucard]

Do you think a Maze+W Orb lock is better than Chalice+Sphere? This is a Stompy deck and more slots are reserved for threats.

@Al-ucard: Have you tested your list, no GSZ?
A 4/4 uncounterable, irremovable vs a 10/10 unblockable, irremovable is not a fair fight. You can draw 1 Progenitus from time to time, but the odds of drawing both is very low and there are Moxes to dump dead draws.
The general issue with pure aggro is your creatures are 4/4 at best (save for Tarmogoyf) and being laughed by Knight, Tombstalker, unfair Fatties all day long. Equipments are nice but prone to in-response-equip-removal! kind of tempo swing.

I don't tested that list, but I will. Then I will try to put some GSZ because I will play some Scryb rangers.

Prog vs Thrun: I have more than one issue with Prog, the first is that you could draw him (and I do it once for every 3 matches trust me!) and the second is that a single counterspell ruins you. But it's a personal choice.

It's true that with Progenitus you win fast, but I prefer to assure the victory and Thrun is better here, with him you laugh at Knight and opposing Tarmogoyfs.

Finally my creatures are not 4/4 at best, ther are Noble, Jitte, SoFI, Briarhorn...

[paeng4983]

four chrome mox with 4 trinisphere and cotv?
i bet your aim here is to have (as much as possible)
an explosive turn one drop. which i really love to do
with this deck in every turn one. but on the other hand,
i dont want to spend, 3 just to cast chrome mox in mid-game
or worst, if you're praying for a FTW card during end games,
its the worst top card you'll ever draw.
:tongue:

regarding the root maze and orb lock, no. its not that strong.
you'll just slow him down. and worst, he can still cast FOW and other
defensive spells in stopping you from playing your NO-prog or other
bomb. also, you'll just lock yourself with this kind of lock. :)

anyway, over the past weekend, i played this deck (twice) in small legacy tourneys here.

1st tourney were only 8 players attended, we had 3rds.
lost my 1st two matches (painter-grindstone & merpok).
i lost both games because i went the greedy way, NO-prog way immediately,
instead of waiting patiently for the kill. after i fetched prog during my 3rd game vs. painter-grindstone, he dropped grindstone and activated it on the same turn, thus milling my entire deck. as against merpoks, he dropped reinforcements to give more muscles, thus i lose. my lone win was from an affinity deck. wickedbough elder was a house.

2nd tourney, again with 8 players playing. 3rds again.
won all of my games. 1st game i faced elf-ball. game two was an epic game, i had a trinisphere and a progenitus on my table and yet he still managed to go off with his combo. thanks to his gaea's cradle he had enaf mana to pay trinisphere's additional costs in each spells he plays. i won our 3rd game because of COTV set at one, trinisphere and destroying his gaea's with my waste. then mireboa with jitte gave me the win. 2nd rd vs. TES, i both both games one and two via 1st turn trinisphere. 3rd rd vs. RUG counterTOP naught, similar to what AJ had although with minor tweaks. we went 3games in which i won via riverboa with jitte on her.

here's the list that i used:

4 ancient tomb
4 G_fetches
3 wasteland
9 forest

1 arbor dryad
1 progenitus
4 llanowar elves
4 ESG
4 spwanwright
2 wicked bough elder
4 riverboa
3 mireboa

3 garruk
4 natural order

4 trinisphere
4 COTV
2 jitte

SB
2 snakeform
2 krosan grip
2 beast within
4 tormod's crpyt
4 choke
1 emperial archangel

:confused:

[RexFTW]

This deck is VERY well positioned in the current meta. It is incredibly favored against any blue deck except spiral tide. We are talking like 80%.

[Philipp2293]

Hi Rex, could you post a current list of yours?

[paeng4983]

This deck is VERY well positioned in the current meta. It is incredibly favored against any blue deck except spiral tide. We are talking like 80%.

i 2nd the motion this one. if i only didnt opt to go the greedy way against painter and merpok, i could have won both games. :)

[evanmartyr]

I was brainstorming what to do with this thing, which led to Natural Ordering a Primeval Titan for Wastelands, which led to land destruction as a more consistent way to lock out your opponent from being relevant, which led to this:


4x Llanowar Elves
4x Fyndhorn Elves
4x Spawnwrithe
4x Imperious Prefect
4x Lodestone Golem
3x Umezawa's Jitte

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Thorn of Amethyst
3x Trinisphere

4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
10x Forest
4x Ancient Tomb

I'm not sure about the basic/non-basic ratio, but that seems a minor concern. Noble Heirarch would probably usually be a better card than 4x of the Elves, so that's a possible change. Your major threats (Golem, Prefect, Spawnwrithe) operate easily under a Trinisphere, Amethyst, or Lodestone Golem, and two of them are accelerating threats that don't require any or much mana, which leaves you free to Wasteland, Port, Ice Storm, or otherwise mess with your opponent.

Looking through the lists of the last few SCG 5ks, this sort of aggressive lock deck is amazingly potent in the current meta. A Chalice at 1 suppresses 8 cards in your list, but forces Dredge to slowroll; it forces Zoo, High Tide, and any deck that focuses on those 1-mana blue cards everyone seems to love to have the answer or get tempo'd into oblivion while a Chalice at 2 wrecks pretty much everyone but you. A Thorn of Amethyst or Lodestone Golem practically doubles the cost of everyone's removal, and a Trinisphere does really unfair things to a lot of decks. In some metas I'd imagine the Spawnwrithes wouldn't be that great, but as it stands they have to connect once before they're nearly impossible to answer for lots of decks.

The Ancient Tombs and Elvish Spirit Guides give the deck that little extra boost: Consistent turn 1 Thorns, or turn 2 Chalice at 2/Lodestone Golems are just dumb.

Bear in mind this is me thinking of this crap at work, so the numbers are probably all off. Tarmogoyf probably deserves a slot but I'm not sure what to cut.

Basically, I'm thinking that NO is a huge risk these days, and GSZ gives you options to answer your opponents' threats...usually threats you could have just powered around or through with silliness (Spawnwrithe) or stupidity (Sphere of Resistance effects).

Feel free to tear this reasoning apart, but I'd love to get a working version of this thing up and running.

[Al-ucard]

I was brainstorming what to do with this thing, which led to Natural Ordering a Primeval Titan for Wastelands, which led to land destruction as a more consistent way to lock out your opponent from being relevant, which led to this:


4x Llanowar Elves
4x Fyndhorn Elves
4x Spawnwrithe
4x Imperious Prefect
4x Lodestone Golem
3x Umezawa's Jitte

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Thorn of Amethyst
3x Trinisphere

4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
10x Forest
4x Ancient Tomb

I'm not sure about the basic/non-basic ratio, but that seems a minor concern. Noble Heirarch would probably usually be a better card than 4x of the Elves, so that's a possible change. Your major threats (Golem, Prefect, Spawnwrithe) operate easily under a Trinisphere, Amethyst, or Lodestone Golem, and two of them are accelerating threats that don't require any or much mana, which leaves you free to Wasteland, Port, Ice Storm, or otherwise mess with your opponent.

Looking through the lists of the last few SCG 5ks, this sort of aggressive lock deck is amazingly potent in the current meta. A Chalice at 1 suppresses 8 cards in your list, but forces Dredge to slowroll; it forces Zoo, High Tide, and any deck that focuses on those 1-mana blue cards everyone seems to love to have the answer or get tempo'd into oblivion while a Chalice at 2 wrecks pretty much everyone but you. A Thorn of Amethyst or Lodestone Golem practically doubles the cost of everyone's removal, and a Trinisphere does really unfair things to a lot of decks. In some metas I'd imagine the Spawnwrithes wouldn't be that great, but as it stands they have to connect once before they're nearly impossible to answer for lots of decks.

The Ancient Tombs and Elvish Spirit Guides give the deck that little extra boost: Consistent turn 1 Thorns, or turn 2 Chalice at 2/Lodestone Golems are just dumb.

Bear in mind this is me thinking of this crap at work, so the numbers are probably all off. Tarmogoyf probably deserves a slot but I'm not sure what to cut.

Basically, I'm thinking that NO is a huge risk these days, and GSZ gives you options to answer your opponents' threats...usually threats you could have just powered around or through with silliness (Spawnwrithe) or stupidity (Sphere of Resistance effects).

Feel free to tear this reasoning apart, but I'd love to get a working version of this thing up and running.

This reminds me a lot to old Extended Trinity deck, was a mono green deck that has aceleration (elves), disruption (tangle wire, chalice...) and good threats (deranged hermit searched by skyroush poacher, and living wish to search for kamahl, masticore...) I really will love to build a similar deck and see it work.

[Nekrataal]

This deck is VERY well positioned in the current meta. It is incredibly favored against any blue deck except spiral tide. We are talking like 80%.

This is nonsense. The deck is well positioned in the current meta. Check. It has a slightly favorable matchup against most blue decks. Check. Not more. Iam testing a version that focusses around Blue hate and be save from Mental Misstep. So far I have tested matchups to the following result (2 preboard, rest postboard). Still ongoing: The Gate (4:6), MUC (3:2), Stax (3:3), UGb Thres (5:2), Quinn (2:0), Merfolk (1:1), Goblins (1:2). You can see that against the field to be expected it is doing quite well. Goblins and Storm will be gone for a while I suppose.

My experimental list:

Creatures (17):
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Ant Queen
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Wickerbough Elder

1 Progenitus
1 Terastodon

Planeswalker (3):
3 Garruk Wildspeaker

Other spells (21):
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Beast Within
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
2 Jitte

Lands (19)
10 Forest
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

Board:
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Beast Within
1 River Boa
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Cold-Eyed Selkie
3 Choke
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Krosan Grip
3 Silent Arbiter

Experience so far:

As stated above. U decks are rather positive especially after sideboarding. Exception to that is Merfolk. Like any swarm aggro deck this is a problem for Mono G Chalice Aggro. For that reason I play Silent Arbiter SB and probably should play a single SoFaI. GSZ is great in finding all the one off's. I played a lot of different test matchups so far and due to the variable nature of the deck it never felt like having no chance like it is with other decks that tend to have a couple of really horror matchups. On the other hand there wasn't a matchup that I would say is a cakewalk.

A word to "Beast Within". I still like the card BUT it is a great great tempo loss in a deck that creates no tempo. It is good to eliminate an oponents threat of my choice but it always stalls the next on next couple of rounds which is annoying.

The deck wins with NO most of the times. This was quite surprising. If not boarded out like in Tempo matchups it either turns up in T2 - T4 or it comes as a late gift when the game is grinding out.

The deck has surprisingly less creatures that are big for a green deck. Except for Thrun or some utility creatures like Witness there are no additional creatures which I would like to play which do not fit at the moment. However this deck can ramp mana easily to 6 or more with Garruk, Ranger tricks etc. Actually isn't this one of the reasons for playing Garruk which is strictly inferior to Jace or Elspeth? So this is why I play at least a single Ant Queen because I think it is the best green creature for the price in this deck. You can directly go for more tokens once it comes into play which sometimes is relevant to have a creature to be sacrificed for a later NO or an additional blocker/attacker.

Things I dislike at the moment: There should be one more equipment maindeck and probably it should be one more forest. Have to think about what could go out.

[boneclub24]

four chrome mox with 4 trinisphere and cotv?
i bet your aim here is to have (as much as possible)
an explosive turn one drop. which i really love to do
with this deck in every turn one. but on the other hand,
i dont want to spend, 3 just to cast chrome mox in mid-game
or worst, if you're praying for a FTW card during end games,
its the worst top card you'll ever draw.
:tongue:

regarding the root maze and orb lock, no. its not that strong.
you'll just slow him down. and worst, he can still cast FOW and other
defensive spells in stopping you from playing your NO-prog or other
bomb. also, you'll just lock yourself with this kind of lock. :)

anyway, over the past weekend, i played this deck (twice) in small legacy tourneys here.

1st tourney were only 8 players attended, we had 3rds.
lost my 1st two matches (painter-grindstone & merpok).
i lost both games because i went the greedy way, NO-prog way immediately,
instead of waiting patiently for the kill. after i fetched prog during my 3rd game vs. painter-grindstone, he dropped grindstone and activated it on the same turn, thus milling my entire deck. as against merpoks, he dropped reinforcements to give more muscles, thus i lose. my lone win was from an affinity deck. wickedbough elder was a house.

2nd tourney, again with 8 players playing. 3rds again.
won all of my games. 1st game i faced elf-ball. game two was an epic game, i had a trinisphere and a progenitus on my table and yet he still managed to go off with his combo. thanks to his gaea's cradle he had enaf mana to pay trinisphere's additional costs in each spells he plays. i won our 3rd game because of COTV set at one, trinisphere and destroying his gaea's with my waste. then mireboa with jitte gave me the win. 2nd rd vs. TES, i both both games one and two via 1st turn trinisphere. 3rd rd vs. RUG counterTOP naught, similar to what AJ had although with minor tweaks. we went 3games in which i won via riverboa with jitte on her.

here's the list that i used:

4 ancient tomb
4 G_fetches
3 wasteland
9 forest

1 arbor dryad
1 progenitus
4 llanowar elves
4 ESG
4 spwanwright
2 wicked bough elder
4 riverboa
3 mireboa

3 garruk
4 natural order

4 trinisphere
4 COTV
2 jitte

SB
2 snakeform
2 krosan grip
2 beast within
4 tormod's crpyt
4 choke
1 emperial archangel

:confused:

Is there any particular reason you opt for Llanowar Elves over Noble Hierarch? Also, I recommend you main 1-2 Beast Within. It's doing so well for me :)

[Koby]

This reminds me a lot to old Extended Trinity deck, was a mono green deck that has aceleration (elves), disruption (tangle wire, chalice...) and good threats (deranged hermit searched by skyroush poacher, and living wish to search for kamahl, masticore...) I really will love to build a similar deck and see it work.

I think this would be an interesting option to explore. Deranged Hermit gives the deck an answer to swarms, and with a slight retooling of the creature base, we could possibly add Stampeding Wildebeast to add recursion for it (and being a threat...sorta. I know it's a stretch). Skyshroud Poacher is probably better tho.

[eq.firemind]

Also, I recommend you main 1-2 Beast Within. It's doing so well for me :)
I've got right opposite feelings from Beast Within. The 3/3 prevents my best "hit=win" creature (Spawnwrithe) from doing anything.

Green in general have enough creatures to deal with opposing artifacts/enchantments and now Green Sun's Zenith to fetch them.

Also, each and every Chalice Aggro deck should consider running 3-4 Phyrexian Revoker somewhere in 75. The guy solves every problem you might have: Jace 2.0, Pernicious Deed, turn 1 Vial/Hierarch and much more.

Now, green have hard time dealing with opposing creatures. In this particular deck, Snakeform is perfect for that role. It is an instant and you'll be surprised how often it 2-for-1 your opponent (and sometimes you'll even help Spawnwrite to connect, which is close to 3-for-1).

[titus]

Anyone considering the new UG legend from the commander precons as a 1-of in here? He's playable via Hierarch mana and/or Green Sun's Zenith, and plays nicely with both River Boa/Mire Boa and Spawnwrithe.

Edric, Spymaster of Trest 1UG
Legendary Creature - Elf Rogue (R)
Whenever a creature deals combat damage to one of your opponents, its controller may draw a card.
"I am not at liberty to reveal my sources, but I can assure you, the price on your head is high."
2/2

Win More? Or some decent gas for the deck?

[paeng4983]

Anyone considering the new UG legend from the commander precons as a 1-of in here? He's playable via Hierarch mana and/or Green Sun's Zenith, and plays nicely with both River Boa/Mire Boa and Spawnwrithe.

Edric, Spymaster of Trest 1UG
Legendary Creature - Elf Rogue (R)
Whenever a creature deals combat damage to one of your opponents, its controller may draw a card.
"I am not at liberty to reveal my sources, but I can assure you, the price on your head is high."
2/2

Win More? Or some decent gas for the deck?

i like this one. maybe in the near future i'd tweak this into something like this:
- 4 elves
- 4 NO
-1 prog

+ 2 commander
+ 3 selkie
+4 noble

@bone, llanowar is a much better blocker than noble if lacky is on the opposing table.

the walking needle, hmmm i might replace -1 spawn and a river

[tsabo_tavoc]

- 4 NO
-1 prog


This is a mistake. Even when you can draw many cards, you need a win condition.

[paeng4983]

This is a mistake. Even when you can draw many cards, you need a win condition.

through swords perhaps or spawn or garruk. :)

[Al-ucard]

And there is the fact that our topdeck is horrible and we could draw prog anytime, I do it a lot.

[paeng4983]

i used this deck last sunday's tourney and it run well, its just to sad that the opposing deck run better, :) i only had 1-3 (drop) mark.

going back at the topic, creatures with drawing abilities are not good synergy with a progenitus in a deck. such ability could escalate the percentage of you drawing your big man. so i thought of tweaking it by removing the NO-prog package and replace it with card drawing creatures and kill my opponent via sword, spawn, or garruk.

here's what's in my mind:


4 tomb
3 waste
4 g_fetches
9 forest

1 arbor
4 noble
2 selkie
2 wickedbough elder
1 thrun the last troll
1 (that legendary guy from the commander)
2 scryb ranger
2 spawn
4 riverboa
3 tarmo
4 esg

4 trinisphere
4 cotv
1 sofi
1 soff
3 garruk
1 jite

any thoughts?
:)

[Al-ucard]

Yes, maybe something like this?

21 lands
4 tomb
3 waste
4 g_fetches
10 forest
1 arbor

18 Creatures
4 noble
4 riverboa
4 tarmo
3 ???
2 scryb ranger
2 thrun the last troll
1 Qasali pridemage
1 (that legendary guy from the commander)

21 others
4 cotv
3 beast within
3 GSZ
3 sofi
3 garruk

[darkeraser]

why not terravore ? sems good with land disruption and wasteds :p trample looks so god with jittes to avoid sac engines and protection creatures i am thinking to put in 1 fauna shaman so i can have acces to get out my progenitus from my hand :p

[C Rayz Walz]

I don't really think shaman is that great for this deck. I get what you mean since it sucks when you draw Pro, and I like that fact that he is able to find more gofys, but I also think that the card is really slow. I don't think it is a card that we need. I do how ever really like thrun in this deck. I think it is a really powerful card with jitte and sword. Kind of lame that he is legendary but I think he fits so well in this deck.

I still think natural order and Pro are still so good for us but that is my opinion. I do like terravore but I am not sure if we can use as well as other decks can. He could be awesome and I feel that he should be tested. How many would you use...2?

[C Rayz Walz]

I don't really think shaman is that great for this deck. I get what you mean since it sucks when you draw Pro, and I like that fact that he is able to find more gofys, but I also think that the card is really slow. I don't think it is a card that we need. I do how ever really like thrun in this deck. I think it is a really powerful card with jitte and sword. Kind of lame that he is legendary but I think he fits so well in this deck.

I still think natural order and Pro are still so good for us but that is my opinion. I do like terravore but I am not sure if we can use as well as other decks can. He could be awesome and I feel that he should be tested. How many would you use...2?

[darkeraser]

im ussing 2 on main deck at the moment and 4 gsz it looks prety strong becouse the trample and its a silver bullet vs maverick and new horizonts.Im traying to cut 1 space and test one primaveral titan on main deck just for try to lock the oponent with wasted disruptions and triny lock

[C Rayz Walz]

I love titan and right now I have this green stax deck that I am going to try titan in it since he creates card advantage and is so sick with wasteland and trinisphre like you said. I think in this aggro deck I don't think he is worth it for 6 mana, and I think just having one you won't see it enough. I could be wrong but I don't feel that he fits that deck as well as something like thrun. The more I think about vore the better I think he might be, but still unsure since we only run 4 waste and a couple fetch. When I have use that card I have used it with a lot more fetch lands or using it with geddon or loam which use it better.

[darkeraser]

i am playing right now 6 fetches and 4 wastedlands i thing thats enough food for him and terravore yes i am looking for another spot to play 2 copys of titan but i dont know what i cut :really

[C Rayz Walz]

Can you post your list so maybe I can give a suggestion.

[darkeraser]

Can you post your list so maybe I can give a suggestion.

4 nobel hierach
4 goif
4 spirit guide
3 terravore
1 primaveral titan
1 terastdon
1 progenitus

3 jitte (im running 2 and 1 sword fire ice coz my local metagame )
3 garruk
4 trinysphere
4 chalice
4 green sun zenith
4 natural order ( most times ill target primaveral coz triny lock on table)

4 waste
2 driad arbor ( more save to do zenit arbor tourn 1)
4 ancient tomb
6 fetches
4 forest

[C Rayz Walz]

Looks like a pretty tight list. I personally would cut Terastdon as I don't think I would natural order for it that often, but I guess having the versatility is really nice. You might also want to cut a trinisphere as drawing a couple of them seems pretty bad. I play a green stax list and even in that I don't run 4 sphere and I have ways to deal with drawing more then one. I also really like thurn in this deck at least somewhere in the 75. Yea, I would have at least one sword of fire and ice in your list as well as drawing 3 jittes doesn't seem that great.

[darkeraser]

i dont like the idea about cut terastodon , saved many times my ass vsersus afinity match ,inifity its a fast deck now and u got 0 creatures with flaying to block them Cranial Plating will be a pain ass on plague topter or the metalcraft 2/2 protection vs all.

Im thinking the same idea like u , cut one trinisfere i will test it , but im not funny about switch a 3 mana cost for 6 mana cost >.<!!! by the way today played versus new horizonts and did a roughtly 3 - 0
got mutch agro with terravores and tarmos with exalted , droped with triny a primaveral titan by natural order he just said me WHAT THE FUCK xDD

[paeng4983]

hhmmmm....
fauna? buried alive? bop? titan? terrastodon? NO? vengies....
hmmmm...this made me pause for a minute and maybe, just maybe,
you like this approach.

TJB_GSA_v2

3 bayou
3 wastelands
2 arbor
4 a.tombs
4 G_fetch
4 forest

4 trinisphere
3 garruk
4 NO
4 GSZ
4 buried alive

4 BOP
4 B. rootwalla
4 ESG
1 terrasdon
1 progenitus
1 fauna
4 vengies
2 wickedbough elder

SB:
3 choke
3 snakeform
4 tormod's crypt
3 beast within
1 E. archangel
1 krosan grip


what you think guys?
*sorry its not mono green anymore** :)
i've been designing this one since May.

[Mr Pirakos]

I never play green but I am a fan of the Chalice Aggro decks and I was toying around with this idea. Maybe it'll help you guys with your ideas or maybe you'll get a good laugh out of it.

//Land
5 Forest
4 Tree of Tales
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Pendelhaven

//Ramp
4 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

//Lock
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Trinisphere

//Hate
4 Beast Within
2 Krosan Grip

//Beatdown
4 Ezuri's Brigade
4 Troll Ascetic
2 Thrun, the Last Troll

//Shenanigans
2 Flex slot - Venomous Fangs maybe?
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Body and Mind


//Sideboard
3 Arena of the Ancients
3 Rachet Bomb
3 Viridian Shaman
2 Krosan Grip
2 Cold-Eyed Selkie
2 Tormod's Crypt

[RexFTW]

- 4 NO
-1 prog

This is a mistake. Even when you can draw many cards, you need a win condition.

+1

I have won many tournaments with this deck. The inevitibility of Progenitus wins many games.

[RexFTW]

Is there any particular reason you opt for Llanowar Elves over Noble Hierarch? Also, I recommend you main 1-2 Beast Within. It's doing so well for me :)

The LLanowar elves are in the deck because of synnergy with pendelhaven and because they block lackey better. However his list is not running pendelhaven (???).

[RexFTW]

This guy is possibly good enough:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-YLR9T2VkcGc/Tdu6yPN4GyI/AAAAAAAAMPM/jruhg1cnn9Q/s320/M12%2BDungrove%2BElder.jpg

Dungrove Elder, 2
Creature - Treefolk, Rare
Hexproof
Dungrove Elder's power and toughness are each equal to the number of Forests you contorl.
*/*

[darkeraser]

This guy is possibly good enough:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-YLR9T2VkcGc/Tdu6yPN4GyI/AAAAAAAAMPM/jruhg1cnn9Q/s320/M12%2BDungrove%2BElder.jpg

Dungrove Elder, 2
Creature - Treefolk, Rare
Hexproof
Dungrove Elder's power and toughness are each equal to the number of Forests you contorl.
*/*


:o i like that m12 tree maybie i cut one trinysphere for the second primaveral titan , but that tree got a big problem , no trample thats not funy for jittes >_<

[frenchy-man]

How does the deck deal with stoneforge ?

[Admiral_Arzar]

How does the deck deal with stoneforge ?

Blow up whatever it fetches? Or I suppose Progenitus is always a good option.

[darkeraser]

after testing the deck more intensive i am not a big fan of garruk playing terravore , im gona test 3 beastwithing instead it

[paeng4983]

after testing the deck more intensive i am not a big fan of garruk playing terravore , im gona test 3 beastwithing instead it

this deck really wasnt designed to out lands in its GY. so terravore is not a good fit with it.
beastwithin might be a good replacing that disenchant treefolk.

[boneclub24]

what do u do vs maverik with a mother of runes , them just anull ur jitte efect or ur swords efect and its a game lost

Mother can't protect against equipment. She can only give protection from colors, and the equipment are colorless.

[darkeraser]

Mother can't protect against equipment. She can only give protection from colors, and the equipment are colorless.

Congratulation and u have to hit ur oponent with a creature with colour no? :tongue:

[tsabo_tavoc]

what do u do vs maverik with a mother of runes , them just anull ur jitte efect or ur swords efect and its a game lost

I don't play MD equipments as I feel 4 Natural Order is enough. You can always consider Phyrexian Revoker to confront Mom.


This guy is possibly good enough:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-YLR9T2VkcGc/Tdu6yPN4GyI/AAAAAAAAMPM/jruhg1cnn9Q/s320/M12%2BDungrove%2BElder.jpg

Dungrove Elder, 2
Creature - Treefolk, Rare
Hexproof
Dungrove Elder's power and toughness are each equal to the number of Forests you contorl.
*/*

I like the Treefolk and we can embrace him after they will print a Green Moon.

[paeng4983]

green moon would be a must have for this deck.
:)
hmmm this is what i have in mind,
any violent reaction guys?

thrun should be added in its MD.
thrun would be a great creature during mid game.

4 ancient tomb
3 waste
1 arbor
4 G_fetches
7 forest

2 GSZ
4 NO
4 Trinisphere
4 cotv
3 garruk

1 progenitus
1 terastodon
4 llanowar
4 ESG
4 wall of roots
4 overgrown battlement
4 tinder wall
2 thrun

SB
3 beast within
2 snake form
4 choke
2 krosan grip
4 tormod's crypt

[from Cairo]

1 arbor
2 GSZ
4 llanowar

Isn't Green Sun's Zenith 3-4 better than Llanowar Elves 3-4?

[paeng4983]

Isn't Green Sun's Zenith 3-4 better than Llanowar Elves 3-4?

after some play testing, i decided to increase the number of GSZ into 4
and retain the number for llanowar.

[sadface]

Is there any consensus on what the best chalice green list is post MBS and Green Sun's Zenith? The "primer" (opening post), is a bit dated to say the least.

[eq.firemind]

I want to try Garruk Relentless. With it and GSZ it seems that we have serious tutor power. I also insluded 1 Fauna Shaman into GSZ toolbox to have a way do discard Prog and lategame Spirit Guides.
The list is a bit greedy and probably tries to implement too many cute interactions, but that'd help to determine working parts.

Nature Stompy

Mana (27)
10 Forest
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Creatures (13)
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Spawnwrithe
1 Cold-Eyed Selkie
1 Wicherbough Elder
2 Briarhorn
1 Progenitus

Spells (20)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Snakeform
3 Garruk Relentless
0 Garruk, the Veil-Cursed
4 Natural Order

Sideboard
4 Trinisphere
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tree of Redemption
1 Woodfall Primus
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Choke

Some interactions:
Snakeform + Garruk = dead Tarmo, flipped Garruk
Spawnwrithe + Snakeform/Briarhorn = happy clonemaking machine
Sword of Light and Shadow + Garruk(flipped)/Briarhorn/Fauna Shaman = recursion

Thoughts?

[tsabo_tavoc]

I want to try Garruk Relentless. With it and GSZ it seems that we have serious tutor power. I also insluded 1 Fauna Shaman into GSZ toolbox to have a way do discard Prog and lategame Spirit Guides.
The list is a bit greedy and probably tries to implement too many cute interactions, but that'd help to determine working parts.

"list"

Some interactions:
Snakeform + Garruk = dead Tarmo, flipped Garruk
Spawnwrithe + Snakeform/Briarhorn = happy clonemaking machine
Sword of Light and Shadow + Garruk(flipped)/Briarhorn/Fauna Shaman = recursion

Thoughts?

Although you aim for a quick Spawnwrithe, I believe 4 Noble Hierarch still belong to the deck, pumping Spawn, enabling turn 2 Progenitus, and most importantly, making the mana base more consistent.

Relentless is an updated Wildspeaker, but only by a margin. I don't see him alone to make the deck viable again. After cutting Trinisphere, the pile just looks like weaker Maverick.

[paeng4983]

I want to try Garruk Relentless. With it and GSZ it seems that we have serious tutor power. I also insluded 1 Fauna Shaman into GSZ toolbox to have a way do discard Prog and lategame Spirit Guides.
The list is a bit greedy and probably tries to implement too many cute interactions, but that'd help to determine working parts.

Nature Stompy

Mana (27)
10 Forest
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Creatures (13)
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Spawnwrithe
1 Cold-Eyed Selkie
1 Wicherbough Elder
2 Briarhorn
1 Progenitus

Spells (20)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Snakeform
3 Garruk Relentless
0 Garruk, the Veil-Cursed
4 Natural Order

Sideboard
4 Trinisphere
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tree of Redemption
1 Woodfall Primus
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Choke

Some interactions:
Snakeform + Garruk = dead Tarmo, flipped Garruk
Spawnwrithe + Snakeform/Briarhorn = happy clonemaking machine
Sword of Light and Shadow + Garruk(flipped)/Briarhorn/Fauna Shaman = recursion

Thoughts?

Make trinisphere MD. It is a house vs. U decks
^_^
for sharing, here's my latest tweak of the deck:

TJB_GSA_v2
4 ancient tomb
4 G_fetch
3 wasteland
9 forest

1 arbor dryad
4 ESG
4 llanowar elves
2 thrun, the last troll
1 troll ascetic
2 elderbough wicked
2 spawnwright
2 kitchen finks
1 scryb ranger
1 mireboa
1 river boa
1 progenitus

4 trinisphere
4 cotv

3 garruk the wildspeaker
3 GSZ

I tried running Garruk Relentless months ago in my playtesting, and I was not that happy with it.
The deck needs mana in order to get things going, unlike garruk the wildspeaker, Garruk Relentless is not that helping much.
Then i decided to cut that relentless and opt for other cards which i can use. As of now, I have GSZ, thrun and troll ascetic.
and so far, their doing well for me in my playtesting.
^_^

*EDIT*
after month from posting the above reply, I used this deck again here.
and here's my MUS
RUG 1-2
gobs 1-2
supreme blue 2-0
doomsday 2-0
bw 2-0

[xazzax]

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Chrome Mox
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Talara's Battalion
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Loaming Shaman

4 Ezuri's Brigade
4 Thrun, The Last Troll
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Spawnwrithe

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Tree of Tales
5 Forest
1 Okina, Temple of the Grandfathers


Its my decklist. But i must say that Tree of Tales and Ezuri's Brigade is risky.
When you have meta full of Deed's just ignore that creature and artifact lands.
I run Phyrexian Revoker in mainbord to protect myself from ranodm Nic Fit deck's.
If you run GSZ you need Talara's Battalion. 4 Trolls look's crazy but it's best creature in this deck, and you still have mox if you draw too much.

[NihilObstat]

Nice list! Brigade seems awesome!

[Moroklumpen]

A legacy deck with Ezuri's Brigade. Awesome. Talara's Batallion looks interesting too, I'll have to consider it. Winning in Legacy with a deck full of "junk" rares is always good times.

Has anyone tried Lodestone Golem? It seems to hit the sweet spot as a cost efficient threat and beater. It's also easy on the mana.

Also, do we have any realistic way to stop a Show and Tell deck from plopping something huge and nasty onto the board if they go t1 basic island t2 double land or land+spirit guide? Do we just write it off as an unbeatable nut draw and concentrate on winning when they don't have it?

How does this deck fare against the really aggressive decks? I'm considering a single Kitchen Finks as a MD zenith target, but I'd rather have something for the weak matchups if this deck rolls aggro as is.

[tsabo_tavoc]

A legacy deck with Ezuri's Brigade. Awesome. Talara's Batallion looks interesting too, I'll have to consider it. Winning in Legacy with a deck full of "junk" rares is always good times.

Has anyone tried Lodestone Golem? It seems to hit the sweet spot as a cost efficient threat and beater. It's also easy on the mana.

Also, do we have any realistic way to stop a Show and Tell deck from plopping something huge and nasty onto the board if they go t1 basic island t2 double land or land+spirit guide? Do we just write it off as an unbeatable nut draw and concentrate on winning when they don't have it?

How does this deck fare against the really aggressive decks? I'm considering a single Kitchen Finks as a MD zenith target, but I'd rather have something for the weak matchups if this deck rolls aggro as is.

Talara's Batallion < Tarmogoyf;
Ezuri's Brigade < Natural Order;
Lodestone Golem does not play well with Chrome Mox:frown:.
Few decks beat a god hand from Show and Tell.
Kitchen Finks and Obstinate Baloth provide some buffer against Aggro.

[xazzax]

Talara's Batallion < Tarmogoyf

Agree, but not always. If you need fast beatdown or turn two equip carry Batalion is just better. You don't have fetchlands and zenith cant hit grave. You depend too much on opponent cards. I also don't like this card that much, but green don't have solid creatures for 2G.

I dont agree with Natural Order. When you draw hand you need mana, locks, beatdown. If you wont draw creature and NO then you need mulligan. This card makes your draws more random and if opponent use removal in hes turn to destroy blocker... you will lose. Your locks protect from removal (sometimes) and 8/8 beatdown is not much weaker then 10/10 form 2 cards.

Finks works terrible. You dont like 1xx and 3x cost in your stompy deck. Obstinate Baloth is perfect, but i dont like to waste my slots on good MU. Baloth sounds like overkill.

[Moroklumpen]

Thanks for your replies!

Would Lodestone Golem work better in a version without Chrome Mox? I have one but not the other, and since I don't plan on getting the moxen at the moment, I might as well try out the Golem.

And what about the new swords? Are any of them worthwhile?

I'd love to see some more current, battle-tested decklists. I'll post my initial list tomorrow.

[xazzax]

You need mox. It's core of this deck. You can cast 2gg crestures turn 2 with no problems. Golem don't have synergy with this deck.. but its just me. You dont have land drop each turn so it can block you. Your 4 mana creatures cant be afraid of nactal. You don't have Blood Moons to stop him.

Deck use much resources to get 3/4 mana early. We cant play creatures that do nothing if opponent have 3dmg burn. He will just pay 1 mana more for 1 bolt, and you will lose like 3/2 cards.
This card can destroy good MU.

Only WR sword is bad. Your equips depend on your local metagame.
I think jitte is best. It gives you chance to destroy opponent's jitte and your creatures without equip in game are just better.(sometimes ;P )

[Moroklumpen]

No synergy? Play one after dropping a chalice or trinisphere; isn't that synergy? Add wasteland to the mix and watch your opponent cry. Of course, you can't always have multiple lock pieces, but if you play a total of 14 to 16 of them you have a pretty decent chance of getting at least two within the first couple of turns. And if that first element is chalice for one, followed by a golem, what does the zoo player do? What if it's a trinisphere?

Of course, some times you have one but none of the others and he answers it. Other times you have one and his hand is full of 2/3s and lands. And even if the golem trades with a nacatl or goyf, that's one creature that won't be attacking you, and you should have inevitability when the game goes long as long as you stay out of burn range. If it gets burned, that's one spell that won't go to your face. If it gets pathed, it turns into a rampant growth that cost your opponent a card. If it gets plowed, you basically spent two mana but no cards to gain 5 in a matchup where your life total is valuable.

But I didn't really have zoo in mind when I suggested it; zoo isn't a very popular deck in my meta (maybe one player per tournament), and it doesn't seem to be very popular elsewhere either. I might play the golem in the maindeck, but I would most likely side it out against zoo. However, against decks whose only removal is StP, it's a beating, especially if they spent it on, say, your mana dork because they expected to flash it back with Snapcaster next time (or, again, if you opened with another lock piece). Many combo decks don't play removal at all, but fold when their spells double in cost. I really like the combination of disruption and aggression that the golem brings; I concede that this might not be the deck for it but at the very least it seems worthy of consideration and testing.

By the way, it's a bit funny that you claim Chrome Mox is the "core of the deck" when (what I understand as) the original version doesn't play it at all. I thought the core of the deck was efficient beats and disruption, and Mox is neither. It's just an enabler, and it's value is considerable but not unquestionable.

[xazzax]

No synergy? Play one after dropping a chalice or trinisphere; isn't that synergy? Add wasteland to the mix and watch your opponent cry.

No synergy at all. Other creatures cost more. In bad MU you can't imprint him. Your sidebord cards cost more. Trini and chalice is alredy good lock. Golem is just overkill.
and your manabase cant support wasteland if you have tomb and city. If you want golem just ignore green color.

I don't like cards that do nothing good on thier own. "And if that first element is chalice for one, followed by a golem, what does the zoo player do? What if it's a trinisphere?" If i land chlice/trinisphere even Craw Wurm looks awesome. Dont argue using perfect scenarios. If you wont lock opponent he will be just terrible when card like troll works good.


By the way, it's a bit funny that you claim Chrome Mox is the "core of the deck" when (what I understand as) the original version doesn't play it at all.

I talk only about my version. This deck is more similar too Dragon/Demon/Faerie stompy. All decklist run 4 in main. It's auto include card.

[(nameless one)]

Has anyone tried Birthing Pod on these builds?

[Moroklumpen]

I've finally gotten around to putting this baby together, and I plan to take it to a tournament in the near future. So far I've tested a quasi-budget version with Ezuri's Brigade over NOProg, but I expect to be able to borrow the NOs. If not, I'll beat face with the most wonderfully janky win con imaginable. :laugh:

I've also tested Lodestone Golem as my primary beater, and he's an absolute beast. I wouldn't consider running the deck without him. Upping the number of lock pieces to 12 greatly increases the chance of having multiples, and he really puts a lot of decks on the back foot. In fact, I think he's our best bet against Show and Tell decks, seeing as they have the ability to ignore all the other lock pieces entirely.

I'll post a list after our final playtest session later this week; in the meantime I'd love to hear if any of you guys have played this deck lately, how it's developed and whether you have any thoughts on new cards and metagame developments. How are our matchups against the popular decks?

[Zupponn]

Here's a list that I came up with before realizing that this thread existed:

4x Thragtusk
4x Phantom Centaur
4x Spawnwrithe
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
1x Bellowing Tanglewurm
1x Master of the Wild Hunt
4x Trinisphere
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Beast Within
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Chrome Mox
10x Forest
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb

Sideboard:
4x Stingerfling Spider
3x Acidic Slime
4x Ratchet Bomb
1x Dosan the Falling Leaf
1x Tree of Redemption
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Yeva, Nature's Herald

Thragtusk is very playable in this deck and pretty good. The other creatures are all a little odd, but Phantom Centaur and Spawnwrithe just seem to work. The others I'm not 100% sure about. I do really like Stingerfling Spider against Show and Tell though.

[Megadeus]

Do want to play this deck... Strangleroot Geist? Is he a consideration as a possibility?

[Zupponn]

I'm not sure about the geist. He is really good, but I personally would go for something that has a bit more impact and does something a little more than just attacks. He does have undying though, so try him out and see how he feels.

Also, I swapped Ifh-Biff Efreet for Lodestone Golem in my list I posted earlier. The Efreet might find a place in the sideboard though. I'm not sure.

[Megadeus]

Do love the idea of Lodestone Golem beatdown...

[bruizar]

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Chrome Mox
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Talara's Battalion
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Loaming Shaman

4 Ezuri's Brigade
4 Thrun, The Last Troll
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Spawnwrithe

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Tree of Tales
5 Forest
1 Okina, Temple of the Grandfathers


Its my decklist. But i must say that Tree of Tales and Ezuri's Brigade is risky.
When you have meta full of Deed's just ignore that creature and artifact lands.
I run Phyrexian Revoker in mainbord to protect myself from ranodm Nic Fit deck's.
If you run GSZ you need Talara's Battalion. 4 Trolls look's crazy but it's best creature in this deck, and you still have mox if you draw too much.

Please make Ezuri's Brigade playable. I've stocked like 40 of them :D

[Zupponn]

4x Thragtusk
4x Phantom Centaur
4x Spawnwrithe
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
3x Lodestone Golem
1x Eternal Witness
1x Bellowing Tanglewurm
1x Master of the Wild Hunt
4x Trinisphere
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Beast Within
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Chrome Mox
8x Forest
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
2x Dryad Arbor

Sideboard:
3x Stingerfling Spider
3x Ratchet Bomb
2x Choke
2x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn/Worldspine Wurm
1x Dosan the Falling Leaf
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Qasali Pridemage/Acidic Slime/Harmonic Sliver

So I made some changes to my list, mainly with the sideboard. I did add a single Eternal Witness for a Lodestone Golem and a pair of Dryad Arbors for a couple of Forests in the main. I'm much more comfortable with the sideboard now than I was before. The only 2 slots I'm unsure of would be my choice of Artifact/Enchantment removal and my plan to combat mill strategies. Emrakul seems better than the Wurm, especially considering the fact that he becomes pretty good against Show and Tell also. The Slime has an instant ability when it hits the battlefield, which is incredibly nice, but the Pridemage costs a lot less, which makes it a better GSZ target and at the same time still costs less to tutor it up with GSZ and then pop it. I'm currently leaning toward the Sliver though because he gives the best of both worlds. There are also a few other options to consider too in both Viridian Zealot and Wickerbough Elder, so I'm not completely sold on anything for that slot yet. They all have their advantages and disadvantages, so I guess more playtesting will probably reveal the correct answer.

I'd actually feel pretty confident taking this to a tournament and at the very least would really enjoy this deck. Comments and Criticism are always welcome.:smile:

[MGB]

Wow. I haven't touched this thread in ages until the guy above recently bumped it, but after taking a look at what is now available to this deck, I am kind of excited about the potential.

To me, this deck should be all about exploiting Green Sun's Zenith alongside Fauna Shaman to give the deck 8 tutors maindeck and access to a rich toolbox of support, all backed by the traditional 4 Chalice / 4 Trinisphere shell and the Sol Land manabase.

The printing of Thragtusk gave this deck a powerful (tutorable) anti-aggro tool that it lacked before.

Here's my preliminary decklist:


9 Forest
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Chrome Mox

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere

4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Spawnwrithe
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Thragtusk

2 Eternal Witness
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Acidic Slime

SB: 4 Leyline of the Void (Or other graveyard hate)
SB: 4 Null Rod
SB: 4 Choke
SB: 3 Thorn of Amethyst

[Megadeus]

Goyf seems bad here. No instants or sorceries that hit the yard, and no fetches... Seems like you have a lot of T1 or T2 0/1 1/2 Goyfs.

Also here is what I am thinking of brewing after being inspired by some recent posts:

4 Tree of Tales
4 Ancient Tomb
10 Forest

4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Ezuris Brigade
4 Spawnwrithe
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Something along these lines...

I really like the inclusion of Ezuris Brigade. A way to outclass everything is awesome. Like has been said though, watch out for deeds.

[MGB]

Goyf seems bad here. No instants or sorceries that hit the yard, and no fetches... Seems like you have a lot of T1 or T2 0/1 1/2 Goyfs.

Still the best green creature ever printed. In Legacy, the other decks are playing cantrips and countering your stuff, so he gets to be 3/4 or 4/5 pretty fast even if you yourself don't play those spells.

[Piceli89]

I think this deck has good potential to become a serious anti-meta oddball if it packs Natural Order to fight the horde of BGx decks that are festering Legacy right now, which don't have a solution to a resolved Progenitus (maybe a single Perish post-board, if they still play it). Not even Esperblade is having tons of solutions to it- just the miser's Supreme Verdict. You can also switch to Terastodon and Empyrial Archangel as the fatty of choice in certain matchups.

It just takes 4 slots and may get easy wins out of nowhere.

[nedleeds]

Spawnwrite dies to everything. Gets blocked by everything and doesn't evade. It costs 3. I'd rather have Phyrexian War Beast. You are playing 3 ball with no mana denial whatsoever. :really:

[Megadeus]

Spawnwrite dies to everything. Gets blocked by everything and doesn't evade. It costs 3. I'd rather have Phyrexian War Beast. You are playing 3 ball with no mana denial whatsoever. :really:

Good point on Spawnwrithe. It does seem pretty bad. War beast is probably the best 3 drop aggro dork for the deck sadly. Why does blue get all of the good 3 drop 3/4 with Evasion?

And that is one reason I didnt like three ball as well. It just doesnt seem that great here.

[Esper3k]

I'm also a fan of the Natural Order idea although I think you then want to be playing the full 4x Trinisphere to try and stop countermagic as best as you can to protect the Natural Orders.

NO also plays well with Tarmogoyf since it lets you get Sorcery/Creature/possibly Land (if you're sacing Dryad Arbor) into the yard.

[Asthereal]

Phyrexian War Beast has some issues regarding 2-for-1'ing yourself.
Why not just play the oldfashioned Call of the Herd?
That's at least a sort of 1-for-2 if they start blowing up your elephants.
It's actually the old name giver of this deck (Elephant Stompy).
Back then people would even play Endangered Armodon. Good old days. :cool:

Btw, I do think this deck needs at least 7 sol lands.

[nedleeds]

Good point on Spawnwrithe. It does seem pretty bad. War beast is probably the best 3 drop aggro dork for the deck sadly. Why does blue get all of the good 3 drop 3/4 with Evasion?

And that is one reason I didnt like three ball as well. It just doesnt seem that great here.

Goyf is fine if the deck has some disruption or destruction. Also ... sometimes your Chalice gets Forced and Goyf is a 3/4 off the bat. I don't think anything is going to work without some mana denial. I think you also need an answer to DRS on the draw. I played a version of this after the metalcraft stuff came out that played the mighty brigade. If you stuck a chalice you raped face, if not you were playing an awful green deck. This deck doesn't have Moon as the other bomb card to try to land early like Dragon Stompy so I think maybe you play some more control cards like Port and recur your wastelands with Loam. Slime is a shot at curving into something bigger ... could just be Thrun I guess.


4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Life from the Loam
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Forest
2 Rishadan Port
4 Trinisphere
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Beast Within
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Garruk Relentless
2 Sylvan Library
2 Acidic Slime

[Darkenslight]

How about Lurking Crocodile? Unblockable against a good swathe of the meta and usually a 3/3 for 3.

EDIT: or Megatherium?

[alphastryk]

<decklist>

I like a lot of whats going on here, but I'm worried about not ramping enough without City of Traitors.

I also think Zenith helps the deck have a chance at real card selection and is worth playing for that alone.

If we are playing Loam, we should definitely try to fit in zome number of Horizon Canopy to turn our lands into spells late.

I still prefer Chrome Mox over mox diamond, as diamond forces us to use up too many lands when our manabase is very fragile to begin with.

Is there any reason our top-end isn't just Blastoderm? That guy is still stupid powerful.

Terravore seems like a very strong man to have if we are on the wasteland / loam / mox diamond plan though...

Tentative list, base some on my experiences with Armageddon Stax, Faeire Stompy, and Dragon Stompy (this list is probably pretty bad, but Green doesn't have anything to offer like Blood Moon, Armageddon, or Force of Will to help us disrupt our opponent.


4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Wasteland
3 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Fetch

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Chrome Mox

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere

4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Talara's Battalion
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Life from the Loam
2 Sylvan Library
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Terravore
4 Beast Within
2 Garruk Relentless
1 Nantuko Cultivator
3 Blastoderm
1 Bellowing Tanglewurm

[Blastoderm]

This deck should always use Natural Order. Garruk Wildspeaker is also too good to pass up. Untapping SOL lands always enables me to gsz for terastodon. Recently I've been testing 4x skyshroud poacher and 3x deranged hermit.

[MGB]

What do you guys think of playing Fauna Shaman as another tutor in addition to Green Suns Zenith? You can basically have access to any green creature you need with that configuration.

[nedleeds]

Talara's Battalion and a GSZ package is probably better with all the sol mana. Chrome Mox vs. Mox Diamond just comes down to how good you think recurring wasteland is. Versus certain decks it's straight garbage (Miracles, Reanimator) other decks it's pretty good (any of the 3color decks). Instead of Revoker I could also run Powder Keg / Ratchet Bomb to crush any 1cc stuff that makes it through ... those also pair well with elephant tokens.

I just think it's a worse Dragon Stompy / Angel Stompy until something compelling for 2G is printed. I might argue Demon Stompy is better. :eek: Don't get me wrong ... I want any excuse to play Ice Storm ... I own the sweetest ones on earth

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-hxeBQHjCqxA/UO8akP61XII/AAAAAAAAAz8/ax9EgpTO3Bg/s800/20130110115536369.jpg

[Esper3k]

God, Ice Storm is so bad. Very pretty though :)

[kiblast]

Would be interesting to see a list running 4 GSZ and 3-4 Fauna Shaman. You can easily protect Fauna through Chalice at 1, she lets you recycle ESG when you already have enough mana out, discard Prog when in hand and you can even run a Squee for some sort of card advantage (which is lacking here). You can increase the possibility of seeing your one ofs. In other words, I think the deck becomes more resilient with her. Also you can play Scryb Ranger which is incedibly better than running Noble Hierarchs, because you can infinitely chump block with dryad arbor and ramp your mana without clashing with your on chalice.
I think I'll start testing something like this:


4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
5 Forest

4 ESG
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Fauna Shaman
2 Scryb Ranger
2 Acidic Slime
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Progenitus
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Phyrexian Metamorph

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere

4 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith


Seems fun, I'm building it. I like decks with silver bullets and here you have 7 ways of finding them, a strong gameplan (accellerate NO Prog) and some sort of early protection from disruption thanks to Chalice and Trinisphere. Having so many ways of tutoring solutions/menaces could fix the problem of chalice decks (trying not to die to themselves every 3 games). Plus, post side you can power out fast Chokes and use Empyrial Archangel as a different fatty vs certain decks.
Playing 4 Wastelands + 2 Acidic Slimes + Metamorph copying it must be fun if you have a Trinisphere out...:laugh:

[Zupponn]

The NO-Prog route seems really good, but I don't want to shell out the money for them right now.:laugh:

So, in the meantime, I'm going to continue to explore the non-NO route that this deck could take.

Also, on Spawnwrithe, a T1 or T2 Spawnwrithe is incredibly hard to stop. I know he looks funky, but with all the 1-toughness creatures running around in Legacy, he will replace himself more often than not (Remember that he has Trample). He also can hold a single Goyf from attacking because he multiplies so fast that you would eventually have unlimited blockers for that Goyf. Also, a T1 Writhe forces a following T1 Deathrite Shaman to block it, which kills the shaman and keeps Writhe alive, which is always a good move. With Jund being so popular right now, he does really well. I guess the best reason to run him would be that he gives you this ability to finish a game all by himself rather quickly, which can be really helpful after a sweeper or vs an empty battlefield.

[kiblast]

Spawnwrite was borderline playable when I first heard of the deck a couple of years ago. I don't think that now is a solid md choice. Natural Order is the only single reason why you should build this deck, otherwise if you want to go for the normal aggro route MUD offers better tools, white chalice aggro offers better tools packed with sphere effects (Thalia and Glowrider).Red has Dragon Stompy, which has by far the best threats together with Faerie Stompy (which can play Fow as well). The only slots that can push this deck over other stompy shells is the possibility of powering out t2 and t3 Orders.

[Zupponn]

Natural Order is the only single reason why you should build this deck

I have been having some decent success without it though.

[Barook]

Spawnwrite was borderline playable when I first heard of the deck a couple of years ago. I don't think that now is a solid md choice. Natural Order is the only single reason why you should build this deck, otherwise if you want to go for the normal aggro route MUD offers better tools, white chalice aggro offers better tools packed with sphere effects (Thalia and Glowrider).Red has Dragon Stompy, which has by far the best threats together with Faerie Stompy (which can play Fow as well). The only slots that can push this deck over other stompy shells is the possibility of powering out t2 and t3 Orders.
The main thing that got me interested in the deck recently is having more ways to power out early Lodestone Golems then, let's say, White Chalice Aggro (where I got some experience with it). Golem is ridiculously good in Legacy, especially when powered out early. The only reason why it isn't dominating like in Vintage is the lack of options to power it out early, hence why I'm going to investigate this deck.

@Zupponn: Have you considered running Garruk Relentless along with Master of the Wild Hunt? They seem to go very well together, especially once you get deathtouch wolves.

[Wincheee]

The card key here is Ezuri's Brigade,soooo fucking OP, Chrome mox/opal/diamond,some tree of tales,tangle wire,Revoker,equipments,etc,etc... try it!

[Zupponn]

@Zupponn: Have you considered running Garruk Relentless along with Master of the Wild Hunt? They seem to go very well together, especially once you get deathtouch wolves.

I've been pondering the inclusion of either Garruk Relentless or Garruk Wildspeaker for a while now as they both cost 4cmc, make dudes, and give you an extra win condition. Relentless also acts as a tad more removal, while Wildspeaker can give you some more explosiveness. I haven't tried either of them yet, as I'm not really sure where they would fit and what numbers would be correct. I'm thinking that there would only be a need for 1 or 2 and that maybe a Trinisphere, Beast Within, and/or Phantom Centaur could get cut for them in my list? I don't know. I'll look into both of them when I get some time though.

[Barook]

I've been pondering the inclusion of either Garruk Relentless or Garruk Wildspeaker for a while now as they both cost 4cmc, make dudes, and give you an extra win condition. Relentless also acts as a tad more removal, while Wildspeaker can give you some more explosiveness. I haven't tried either of them yet, as I'm not really sure where they would fit and what numbers would be correct. I'm thinking that there would only be a need for 1 or 2 and that maybe a Trinisphere, Beast Within, and/or Phantom Centaur could get cut for them in my list? I don't know. I'll look into both of them when I get some time though.
Played a few games with a few modifications of your list:

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
2 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
8 [RAV] Forest

// Creatures
1 [SOM] Bellowing Tanglewurm
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
1 [CMD] Eternal Witness
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
1 [M10] Master of the Wild Hunt
4 [SHM] Spawnwrithe
2 [M13] Thragtusk
1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll

// Spells
2 [NPH] Batterskull
4 [NPH] Beast Within
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
2 [ISD] Garruk Relentless
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [DS] Trinisphere

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [M12] Acidic Slime
SB: 2 [TE] Choke
SB: 1 [CHK] Dosan the Falling Leaf
SB: 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 3 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 3 [M12] Stingerfling Spider
SB: 1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

As nice as it is, I found 4 Thragtusk excessive. I'm trying out 2 Batterskull in its place. Similiar function as hard-to-kill beater while serving double duty to as equipment and not being affected by Lodestone Golem. It's incredible satisfying to beat down your opponent with a 8/8 lifelink vigiliance Thrun.

Other observations:
- Master of the Wild Hunt is a pretty cool guy and looks like he deserves his GSZ spot.
- needs more Thrun
- can't say much about Garruk Relentless so far, same for Tanglewurm
- Spawnwrithe is terribly unimpressive
- I do feel like the deck could need some library manipulation - maybe 2 copies of Sylvan Library?
- some MD GY hate might be a good idea - Ooze as GSZ target?

This list definitely needs some work, but the result might be cool.

[Zupponn]

As nice as it is, I found 4 Thragtusk excessive. I'm trying out 2 Batterskull in its place. Similiar function as hard-to-kill beater while serving double duty to as equipment and not being affected by Lodestone Golem. It's incredible satisfying to beat down your opponent with a 8/8 lifelink vigiliance Thrun.
Batterskull could definitely find a place here, especially since you can theoretically power it out turn 0 if you want to.

- Master of the Wild Hunt is a pretty cool guy and looks like he deserves his GSZ spot.
I was surprised by him too. If he doesn't draw removal right away, he's just pure value.

- needs more Thrun
Do you think there's a need for more than 1? I'm pretty sure that's the maximum number that I would run.

- can't say much about Garruk Relentless so far, same for Tanglewurm
I've won games with Tanglewurm, but he could be a little overcosted for what he does. I will say that I've never been disappointed in drawing him though.

- Spawnwrithe is terribly unimpressive
I'll admit that he's mediocre, but is there another 3-drop that would be better?

- I do feel like the deck could need some library manipulation - maybe 2 copies of Sylvan Library?
That could be a good idea. It's at the very least something worth testing out.

- some MD GY hate might be a good idea - Ooze as GSZ target?
I'd be willing to move Ooze to the maindeck in place of a Spawnwrithe if I decide to stick with them. That also would open up a sideboard slot for another nice GSZ target.

[Barook]

Batterskull could definitely find a place here, especially since you can theoretically power it out turn 0 if you want to.

I was surprised by him too. If he doesn't draw removal right away, he's just pure value.

Do you think there's a need for more than 1? I'm pretty sure that's the maximum number that I would run.

I've won games with Tanglewurm, but he could be a little overcosted for what he does. I will say that I've never been disappointed in drawing him though.

I'll admit that he's mediocre, but is there another 3-drop that would be better?

That could be a good idea. It's at the very least something worth testing out.

I'd be willing to move Ooze to the maindeck in place of a Spawnwrithe if I decide to stick with them. That also would open up a sideboard slot for another nice GSZ target.

I'm trying out a build without a 3-drop creature since the deck has tons of acceleration and see how it goes. If this should really fail, I think Call of the Herd is still an option.

I increased the number of Thrun to 3. He's MVP and you always want one since he's that good. Drawing multiple copies suck, but he's worth it since he's so resilient. Just slam him down and stop worrying about counters/removal.

I'm currently running 2 Libraries. They're definitely nice to have, but I don't know if I could justify a third one.

I also went from 4 Thragtusk to one copy (as GSZ target) and increased the number of Batterskulls to 3. Being able to beat their Beast Within tokens is quite valuable and equiping your fatties is simply more threatening. As long as you have the mana, I can't see the downside of multiple Batterskulls.

On a different note:
How do you handle creature/swarmdecks MD?

[Blastoderm]

I'm trying out a build without a 3-drop creature since the deck has tons of acceleration and see how it goes. If this should really fail, I think Call of the Herd is still an option.

I increased the number of Thrun to 3. He's MVP and you always want one since he's that good. Drawing multiple copies suck, but he's worth it since he's so resilient. Just slam him down and stop worrying about counters/removal.

I'm currently running 2 Libraries. They're definitely nice to have, but I don't know if I could justify a third one.

I also went from 4 Thragtusk to one copy (as GSZ target) and increased the number of Batterskulls to 3. Being able to beat their Beast Within tokens is quite valuable and equiping your fatties is simply more threatening. As long as you have the mana, I can't see the downside of multiple Batterskulls.

On a different note:
How do you handle creature/swarmdecks MD?

You can put in some umezawa's jitte. Right now I'm testing 3 deranged hermit and 4 skyshroud poacher. It's working quite nicely.

[ironclad8690]

I think Predator Ooze would be pretty sweet in the spot of spawnwrithe. Haven't tested it or anything, just seems like a better three drop.

[lithiux]

GGG seems like it would be really tough for this deck, though.

[MGB]

The problem with this deck is that it's 2G drops just aren't good enough. Spawnwrithe, as others have noted, is hot garbage.

Natural Order is good but can only take you so far. This deck won't be truly viable until they print some more (really) good 1G and 2G creatures.