[Deck] Mono Green Chalice Aggro

[Michael Keller]

For quite some time now, Legacy players around the world have been toying with the notion of assembling a single-colored green deck with various lock components such as Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere. To be sure, there are several decks in existence that function in this nature but none seem to have had a tremendous impact on the general Legacy meta game. Don't be fooled, however: This is not a Stax variant due to the absence of cards like Smokestack and Tangle Wire (both of which have been staples of this archetype for many years).

The basic history surrounding this particular hybrid of Mono Green Chalice Aggro came about in a crude attempt to dismantle decks that rely both heavily on Islands and lower-costing spells. After several months of tinkering, here is ultimately the list I settled on for the debut at Jupiter Games' Forty Dual Land Draft on July 25th, 2009:

Mono Green Chalice Aggro
by Michael Keller

Main
[4x] Llanowar Elves
[4x] Elvish Spirit Guide
[4x] Chalice of the Void
[4x] Tarmogoyf
[4x] River Boa
[4x] Trinisphere
[4x] Natural Order
[3x] Cold-Eyed Selkie
[3x] Umezawa's Jitte
[3x] Garruk Wildspeaker
[2x] Wickerbough Elder
[1x] Progenitus

Land
[9x] Forest
[4x] Ancient Tomb
[4x] Wasteland
[2x] Pendelhaven
[1x] Dryad Arbor

Total: 60 Cards.

Sideboard
[4x] Choke
[3x] Krosan Grip
[3x] Tormods Crypt
[3x] Snakeform
[2x] Sword of Fire/Ice

Total: 15 Cards

At First Glance; Choice Reasoning
This was the list I played that placed 3rd out of 59 players. As great as the list worked out, there are some visible flaws (but we'll get to that in a while). First and foremost, here is an analysis of each card and what purpose it serves in the deck:

Llanowar Elves
Well, what is there to say about this creature that hasn't already been said. For his cost to effectiveness comparison, he is extraordinarily useful in the most critical of circumstances. Most people argue that, perhaps, cards such as Birds of Paradise or Noble Hierarch would work better because of their inherent flying or exalted utilities. This might be true in some instances, but in most cases, Llanowar Elves (or Fyndhorn Elves, if you choose so) can deal one point of damage to anything it blocks without having to be tapped. Creatures such as Goblin Lackey and Dark Confidant remain on the defensive until you are fully prepared to make even more things happen with acceleration.

Elvish Spirit Guide
Fact of the matter is, Elvish Spirit Guide seems more useful as a dormant counter for Daze rather than acceleration. To be sure, E.S.G. has the ability to help power out first turn devastation such as Trinisphere, Chalice set at one, etc. Because of the importance of being able to do these things (and that it remains a 2/2 body if need be), it is imperative to include such a multilateral and strategical wonder to the overall strategy of the deck.

Chalice of the Void
It might be difficult to comprehend why a card with such a permanent capability such as countering lower-cost spells would find its way into an archetype hellbent on playing creatures to begin with. The beauty of Chalice is that is punishes so many other decks for running cards at premium prices. You have the ability to set it at whatever you choose, against whatever you're specifically playing. It is a permanent control element that in most cases cannot be dealt with in game one's where it can mean the difference between winning and losing. Against Aether Vial on the play, case in point.

Tarmogoyf
It might not seem like there are many ways to get Tarmogoyf big in a hurry, but that proved to be a fallacy at the big event. Fact is, green does have few ways to deal with other creatures up front. With instants targeting your creatures early, Brainstorms, discard spells, fetches, your Planeswalkers, etc.,Tarmogoyf can get large in a hurry. And with equipment like Jitte and Sword of Fire and Ice he can also be particularly overwhelming. He is the ultimate green creature, and he serves as a good fit as aggro's finest weapon.

River Boa
This was a difficult choice when I first conceptualized the deck. I don't mean it was hard to include River Boa, it was hard not to include River Boa. He is very efficient: For a colorless and a green, we get a 2/1 Islandwalker with the extra-added bonus of being able to heal itself. I pondered exactly how good he would turn out against Merfolk, and he was excellent, especially with Jitte. Being able to sneak by and maintain a constant lock on an opponent without them being able to block is a strong game-plan in itself. He is a one-man wrecking crew in a deck with cards weaved through the interior dead-set on winning games fast.

Trinisphere
This card, paired with Wasteland, serves as probably the best lock component in the entire deck. Against combo, you can sit and breathe normally knowing your opponent has been shut down (at least temporarily until you either combo out with Natural Order or drop Chalice, etc.). Against other decks like Zoo and the sort, it causes serious issues with smaller mana bases and can win the game by itself. Half of the spells you run cost three or more anyways, so it should rarely if ever be a backfired problem.

Natural Order
This is the card you'll need to go find Progenitus; a hideously large creature (10/10) that has protection from everything. It is a well-known fact once the card is successfully cast, your opponent will have their hands full, essentially putting them on a two-turn clock (or less).

Cold-Eyed Selkie
Without being too fervent here, I can't really say I liked Selkie that much here. I hardly ever saw it in action at the tournament, so to say he was good is very misleading. For what he does, he is outstanding. His cost to power ratio remained an issue, and we'll discuss why later.

Umezawa's Jitte
When you have the ability to do just about anything from gaining life to pumping creatures through a simple artifact, you know you're in good shape. Jitte is a fantastic card that works wonders in combat. You're more apt to force an opponent into contemplating their next move (and subsequently causing errors) than they would normally be used to doing once a creature equipped with Jitte goes to combat. Very effective.

Garruk Wildspeaker
Garruk is the heart and soul of this deck. For what he is able to do, he can get just about anything going. Being able to get creatures and untap lands to cast more spells is critical when you consider how important it is to overwhelm an opponent. He can hit play realistically as early as turn two. If he does, that could be the game-breaker. Use your E.S.G.'s to protect him off the hard-cast to counter-act Daze. This could potentially leave your opponent with one mana less in play and you being able to go nuts.

Wickerbough Elder
The more and more I play this creature, the more and more I want more. Unless an opponent has an absurd amount of land in play to cast and activate both Pernicious Deed or Vedalkan Shackles, you have essentially created a serious problem where an opponent now has to wait until it is absolutely necessary to cast either of those spells. In addition to that, he wrecks Counterbalance single-handedly. At four to cast, he is a little harder to counter. Once becoming a 4/4, he can stand toe-to-toe with just about every other relevant creature in the format and win. If a situation ever arose where you absolutely, positively needed to remove one of your own artifacts from play, he can do that too.

Progenitus
The ultimate win condition with Natural Order. Once he hits play, the game is generally over.

Wasteland
A very useful land capable of shutting down an opponent's ability to cast key spells. Under Trinisphere, this can often flat-out win you the game. It kills Factories and Mutavaults; a definite plus.

Pendelhaven
The one card in definite question. Is it necessary to include this with so few 1/1's? And even then, two of them? What happened here was I found myself wanting to draw more off Selkie because I actually played Selkie in the deck. In my newest version (which I'll post later), he is now defunct - and so is this land which completely opens me up to Waste and Moon hate.

Dryad Arbor
The only one in the deck proved to be important when I needed it most, and not so important when I was lower on land. I think the trade-off is worth it and a singleton to supplement Natural Order would continue to work just fine.

Choke
It beats out Tsunami because an opponent may recover from Tsunami quicker than you think. This is also very easily cast-able within the first two turns. Once it hits play, it forces an opponent to weigh their options very early in the bout.

Snakeform
With green's inability to generate spot-removal, I found this to be a nice touch that even cantrips. It kills just about everything relevant in the format when you have blockers on the table. Green doesn't have many flyers, so being able to stop Tombstalker is good as well. It also shrinks opposing Goyfs, making yours live and plucking a card to boot.

Tormod's Crypt
A lot of people would argue for Relic of Progenitus over Tormod's Crypt. I, personally, would like to keep my Goyfs at a relatively good power and toughness, thank you very much. At zero cost, I think it is still the best graveyard hate ever printed.

Sword of Fire and Ice
After what happened with this card this past weekend, it would be hard to argue against its usefulness in such a critical situation. I can't say enough about how this card rocks against decks incapable to handle it once it goes active. It is devastating and it really can turn the tides and win you games. It also provides card advantage to ridiculous levels and intercepts cards like Humility.

How the Deck Plays
I'd really like to point out how smoothly Mono Green Chalice Aggro plays out. There was rarely a time I didn't like my opening hand because of the acceleration factor.

Applying pressure early with Trinisphere or Chalice can keep an opponent off his or her heels. If you have either of these artifacts out, chances are you've slowed your opponent down some enough where you can begin establishing your own threats like River Boa and Tarmogoyf before Garruk hits the table.

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/8103/naturalorder.jpg

Natural Order is where the power lies. If you can get this spell off (and you'd be surprised how often you do), you have an excellent chance of winning the game. Progenitus is next to impossible to kill.

Use your Jitte counters to full-effectiveness. Know when it is necessary to remove them and for what. You have some evasive creatures like River Boa, so take advantage of that whenever you can. The deck plays pretty straight-forward. Just play to the state of the game and know what to play when you're either on the play or drawing first.

What Makes Mono Green Chalice Aggro Worth Playing?

http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/cardart/dst/trinisphere.jpg

This deck has an uncanny capability of being able to get a good match against just about every competitive deck in the format. Unlike decks like Dragon Stompy, Mono Green Chalice Aggro has the ability to put a 10/10 Protection from Everything into play without the ridiculous amount of card disadvantage and fragile mana base these other decks are susceptible to.

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/4525/progenitus.jpg

Keep in mind, you have the ability to do a lot of things with this deck without having to over-extend your hand. The sideboard is generally wide open because of the answers main-deck (cards like Wickerbough Elder). You can: Stand toe-to-toe with the best aggro, wreck and hose Control, Chalice and life-gain off Jitte against Mountains and opposing Forests, punk Plains and Swamps by shutting down cards like Swords, Path, Enlightened Tutor, Figure of Destiny, Orim's Chant, Duress, Thoughtseize, Dark Ritual, etc. Chalice by itself effectively shuts down these cards without having to do any additional work. Pretty darn effective.

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/9498/swordstoplowshares.jpghttp://img20.imageshack.us/img20/4738/lionseyediamond.jpg

I highly recommend this deck to anyone who really enjoys playing aggro-control variants. I would be hesitant to say the deck is in its infancy due to the copious amounts of previous decks listed in the older forums on the board. This current version was battle-tested and tweaked to fit the minimum standards necessary to combat every viable deck in the format. It has an answer to almost everything, which makes it so multilateral. There are cards like Tarmogoyf and Wasteland which are essentially universal in the nature of Legacy.

With some more work, this deck will truly wreak havoc as it did in Binghamton this past weekend. It disposed of some of the most prolific decks currently in the format, including: Ichorid, T.E.S., Merfolk, and Counter-Top. By getting it over that hump, I hope I've convinced at least some people that this archetype was just waiting for the right time to explode onto the scene, and I capitalized on the opportunity.

Now let's make this work, together.

**Note: More to come, including: Match-up Analysis and Breakdown, Mulligan Strategy, and New and Alternate Card Choices.

[Tacosnape]

Apparently we need yet another thread for this. In any case, congratulations on your placing.

I've been playing GCA (As I'm calling for it to be referred to from now on, because Elephant Stompy's a stupid name and the entire "Green Chalice Aggro" thing is a pain to type) for awhile now. My build's a bit away from yours.

I think Loaming Shaman is a godsend in this deck. I also can't ever imagine not running Briarhorn. It's such a monster. I don't maindeck Jitte. And Cold-Eyed Selkie is, has always been, and will continue to be terrible. There's no way I'll ever agree that running them is a good idea.

I do agree that Green Chalice Aggro has a fantastic matchup against most of the format right now, though.

The most interesting thing that sets this build apart from others, I think, is the lack of Chrome Mox, which is probably a good idea. I've been on the fence about it, but for the most part I've found that the mana elves function much better.

[bowvamp]

Are you sure you want to run snakeform as opposed to artifact removal? Yeah, it is a nice combat trick, but there are good artifact solutions to the same problem. Powder keg perhaps?

[Tacosnape]

Are you sure you want to run snakeform as opposed to artifact removal? Yeah, it is a nice combat trick, but there are good artifact solutions to the same problem. Powder keg perhaps?

I too, actually, have been running Snakeform in my board. (Although I run a full four Grips in board.) I was kind of surprised/impressed anyone else came up with it. It's really kind of good. It's an incredible combat trick and it cantrips.

[tsabo_tavoc]

Congratulations on your impressive finish, Hollywood:tongue:


You can: Stand toe-to-toe with the best aggro, wreck and hose Control, Chalice and life-gain off Jitte against Mountains and opposing Forests, punk Plains and Swamps by shutting down cards like Swords, Path, Enlightened Tutor, Figure of Destiny, Orim's Chant, Duress, Thoughtseize, Dark Ritual, etc. Chalice by itself effectively shuts down these cards without having to do any additional work. Pretty darn effective.

I really like your card selections to make Merfolk a more winnable matchup. Your meta seems to have few red-based aggro decks and I would like to point out that tournament competitive aggro decks wreck this deck nearly as hard as they did to your Imperial Painter. Practically all your threats can be solved by each removal run by Goyf Sligh/Zoo. Your only relevant cards against them are Chalice, Umezawa's Jíttes, Tarmogoyf, Natural Order, Trinisphere and Wasteland, some of which are situational, whereas all of their nonland cards exert pressure independently.

[Michael Keller]

Thank you for the compliments.


Your only relevant cards against them are Chalice, Umezawa's Jíttes, Tarmogoyf, Natural Order, Trinisphere and Wasteland, some of which are situational, whereas all of their nonland cards exert pressure independently.

That's more than a third of a deck. To consider them the only answer to decks like Zoo and Goyf Sligh is an understatement. This deck eats those other decks alive with those cards; that is why they are included in the main list.

Csrds like Powder Keg might have a more difficult time killing, oh, say, Tombstalker or Exalted Angel, don't you think? When you have the ability to shrink an opponent's creature (essentially killing it) and then draw a card, you put yourself in a good position to recapture or maintain board control. This can put your creatures over the top.

There are few artifact removal spells in the format that can single-handedly knock out creatures as big as those without killing your own as well. With Jitte and Sword of Fire and Ice to supplement Snakeform, you can not only power through your opponent's side, but you can even use those equipment effects (i.e. a -1/-1 counter from Jitte and the two damage from Sword) to knock those creatures off.

[beastman]

Diggin the primer. I thought you were gonna put ohran viper or scryb ranger in the place of selkie though.

[Michael Keller]

Diggin the primer. I thought you were gonna put ohran viper or scryb ranger in the place of selkie though.

I was testing that this past weekend. I ended up subbing out Cold-Eyed Selkie and tried Scryb Ranger in its place. It ended up working moderately well; much better than Selkie, anyways. His ability to dodge blue creatures, having Flash and flying, dodge Chalice, and being able to Quirion Ranger is really good, actually.

Ohran Viper is good, don't get me wrong. I just haven't tried it enough yet to sell it to myself on a list that he can find his way into.

[beastman]

One of the biggest problems you were having in testing, with us at leats, was getting stuck on green mana. Thats the main reason I believe that ranger is needed in the deck.

[Michael Keller]

One of the biggest problems you were having in testing, with us at leats, was getting stuck on green mana. Thats the main reason I believe that ranger is needed in the deck.

If he ends up finding his way into the deck, I would really like to get Sword of Fire and Ice going in the main again. This would free up some slots in the board.

I also am thinking about upping the count of Wickerbough Elder to three or four. He is just so good.

[Kuma]

Glad to see someone else care about this deck.

Stuff I like about your list:

ESG, Chalice, Natural Order: Obvious choices. I haven't seen a recent list without these cards.

Tarmogoyf: Thank you. I don't get the pathological aversion to this guy in here. He's the best beater in green, and he's fantastic in our bad matchups. Most of the time your opponent does the work for you, and when they don't you're probably winning anyway.

Garruk Wildspeaker: He's just fantastic. I run four since I almost always want to see one and he wrecks control. Being able to play multiple creatures in a turn while building up for an overrun is crazy good. Even if you just make three beasts and let him die he rocks.

Interesting choices:

Llanowar Elves: Eh, I haven't been a fan since they're small and bad with Chalice, but since both you and Tacosnape love them, I'll have to give it another look. What really stands out with this decision is the lack of Chrome Mox. Llanowar Elves may not be card disadvantage, but not running Chrome Mox makes your first turns a lot worse. I've hated Chrome Mox for a long time, so I'll have to give these a shot.

Wickerbough Elder: I've never liked him because of his mana cost. 2GG is hard for us to make, and he's only a 3/3 until you come up with another green mana, provided there's even a target for him. It's awesome that he deals with Deed and Shackles, but Natural Order -> Progenitus lets you ignore these cards for less mana while killing your opponent faster.

Between Krosan Grip and Natural Order, these cards aren't much of a problem for me. Just saying...

Stuff I don't like:

Cold-Eyed Selkie, Pendelhaven: You already said you don't like him, so I won't belabor the point. 1GG can be tricky, and he's small and horrible against anything not running Islands.

Umezawa's Jitte, Sword of Fire and Ice: Ever since Progenitus was printed, I haven't liked equipment in the deck. I ran equipment to get around creatures and kill the opponent faster. Progenitus does both of these things better.

I understand you built your list to be extra strong against Islands, and equpiment is a great way to beat Merfolk/Thresh, but I haven't missed it since I cut it. It's expensive and slow, plus we already roll aggro and have numerous weapons agaisnt control.

Trinisphere/Wasteland: I'd only run Trinisphere maindeck if you can back it up with land destruction. You've got a lower mana curve than my list, but I have to believe you'd be better off with some City of Traitors. Tapping Ancient Tombs over and over gets painful, especially with Garruk out.

I'm also not a fan of running Wasteland as a deck's only mana destruction, Trinisphere or no.

Thoughts on Trinisphere from the Faerie Stompy thread:


I see. So you're talking about playing Trinisphere on your second turn after the opponent has had one or two turns. Trinisphere can be useful then, but in all likelihood your opponent will drop land number three and keep playing. Trinisphere will buy you a minimum of one turn if you went first, but it costs you one turn to play it. Sometimes your opponent will get stuck on two land and you'll win the game because of it --- I've had that happen. But even in the early game Trinisphere buys you an average of one turn and it costs you one turn to play it. Turn one on the play Trinisphere buys you a minimum of two turns, which makes it a fantastic turn one play, but even one turn later it loses much of its power versus most decks in Legacy. I think it's a fantastic sideboard card if you have a lot of Threshold, storm, and maybe Team America in your metagame, but that's all.


Trinisphere is a terrible, terrible card versus Merfolk. Trinisphere is awful against any deck running Aether Vial, because they'll play creatures with Vial and use their land for other spells. Merfolk also runs Wasteland, and having a Tomb or City wasted turns Trinisphere into their best friend instead of yours.


I boarded Trinisphere against Zoo for a while. Trinisphere was almost useless. Zoo runs around 20 land, and while Trinisphere slows them slightly, one spell per turn is more than enough for them to beat us most of the time.

All my experience with Chalice Aggro tells me Trinisphere is a sideboard card at best. It doesn't do enough most games, and it's a terrible topdeck.

River Boa: Once again, I get that you built your deck to take out Islands, but I stopped running this guy when I stopped running equipment. He can muck up the ground and sneak in with equipment, but he's not worth it without the equipment. I think there are better cards versus the meta at large.

Dryad Arbor: You can't use it right away, and it can be killed by Pernicious Deed and creature removal. I think that's going to matter more often than you'll encounter corner cases where you don't have any other green creature for Natural Order.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Congrats on your placing. I'm glad we have a thread for this again. Then again, anyone can have good matchups and rank a deck. But will this deck stand the test of time.. only time will tell :cool:

You run Llanower elves and jitte in a stompy deck, seems very odd. I just don't see the synergy with llanowers, is the mana accel needed? IMO no. Its taking the place of better choices like Loaming Shaman, Briarhorn, Tanglewire, etc.
The fact of the matter, for a stompy deck he's a lousy first turn play in terms of effectiveness, and he's a dead late game draw = worthless. Not good in a deck based on power and speed.

[Jak]

Congrats on your placing. I'm glad we have a thread for this again. Then again, anyone can have good matchups and rank a deck. But will this deck stand the test of time.. only time will tell :cool:

You run Llanower elves and jitte in a stompy deck, seems very odd. I just don't see the synergy with llanowers, is the mana accel needed? IMO no. Its taking the place of better choices like Loaming Shaman, Briarhorn, Tanglewire, etc.
The fact of the matter, for a stompy deck he's a lousy first turn play in terms of effectiveness, and he's a dead late game draw = worthless. Not good in a deck based on power and speed.

Jitte is pretty common in Stompy decks. Llanowar is most likely there since this deck does run Natural Order. The elf is much better than Chrome Mox in this deck. Also, the mana acceleration is needed. You contradict yourself multiple times talking about speed and power but then wanting to cut down on acceleration. Llanowar Elf is an amazing turn 1 play.

[B is for Big Job]

Was there ever a thought of adding in some kind of draw like harmonize or even sylvan library to help generate more advantage?

I know you said this isnt a stax varient but would adding crucible be a possibility? Wastelock can win games on its own pending on the matchup and the situation. I know its not as strong as it would be in a tradional stax deck but could be an possibility

[Michael Keller]

Was there ever a thought of adding in some kind of draw like harmonize or even sylvan library to help generate more advantage?

I know you said this isnt a stax varient but would adding crucible be a possibility? Wastelock can win games on its own pending on the matchup and the situation. I know its not as strong as it would be in a tradional stax deck but could be an possibility

I mulled over the possibility of Harmonize in the deck's early incarnations. What I found was that it worked fine but it gave me a few issues against aggro decks which were begging me to tap out without being able to play anything relevant. And without Witness, I am kind of hard-pressed to believe Harmonize is anything special.

Crucible of Worlds was another thought. I originally had three in a more Stax-oriented list. Wasteland is here to supplement your creatures and put your opponent in a world of trouble in the esrly stages of the match. If they cannot recover soon after you drop a Tarmogoyf or an equipped dude, then they'll find themselves severely backed against the wall.

As far as Trinisphere in the board goes: No, not for me, anyways. I understand this card's usefulness and I'd be foolish not to play any less than four in a deck solely designed to pin players under a light mana base and make them find answers to your threats very quickly. Trinisphere punishes decks also playing Daze, which sets an opponent clearly back a turn and more open to hurt from Waste because of the makeshift Time Walk.

Is it a dead draw later in the game? Perhaps. But assuming you play one early enough, do you think an opponent will let one stick? I drew a second one against T.E.S. and it was enough to seal the game. I'm not saying having more than one is always ideal; I'm simply stating there are benefits to playing Trinisphere in the main and my meta call was correct. I ended up playing against T.E.S., Counter-Top, and Ichorid (x2). Trinisphere was important in every one of those matches.

You're right, though: Against Merfolk, not so much. But that is the trade-off for a level-up on other decks that this deck can just take a hit for; you have plenty of answers to Merfolk in the deck. Trinisphere just happens to be a card you won't necessarily always want to play against them (even though Choke makes it infinitely better). But to sub out four (moderately negligent) cards when your deck is already tailored to handle blue aggro in general shouldn't make a world of difference. You already have a good match against Merfolk and with Trinisphere your match-ups against other decks (like Ichorid and Thresh variants) improves greatly - even again with the assistance of Wasteland.

[Guy I Don't Know]

sphere of resistance/winter orb could be another way to head with the deck although most likely not as good. Also Tangle Wire could be better than trinisphere in the right meta (storm matchup gets worst). I like the deck although it has some awkward cards at the moment

[Mystical_Jackass]

Jitte is pretty common in Stompy decks. Llanowar is most likely there since this deck does run Natural Order. The elf is much better than Chrome Mox in this deck. Also, the mana acceleration is needed. You contradict yourself multiple times talking about speed and power but then wanting to cut down on acceleration. Llanowar Elf is an amazing turn 1 play.

I got you, but llanower elf isn't synergetic AT ALL with stompy. BAM, turn 1 chalice. Worthless. BAM, turn1 trinisphere, worthless. Stompy is about playing around 3cc, this card does not belong. If you're so worried about accel, use wood elf or something at least its more synergetic with Garruk and doesn't conflict with your spells. Jitte can be used but too many 2cc with Chalice start to conflict once again. If you need to sac to NO, you've got garruk and cards like Call of the Herd. Llanower is great in mono green, not stompy imo. /endrant

[GiantGrowth]

I got you, but llanower elf isn't synergetic AT ALL with stompy. BAM, turn 1 chalice. Worthless. BAM, turn1 trinisphere, worthless. Stompy is about playing around 3cc, this card does not belong. If you're so worried about accel, use wood elf or something at least its more synergetic with Garruk and doesn't conflict with your spells. Jitte can be used but too many 2cc with Chalice start to conflict once again. If you need to sac to NO, you've got garruk and cards like Call of the Herd. Llanower is great in mono green, not stompy imo. /endrant

But how often are you going to have the turn 1 chalace or trinisphere play and the mana elves. Llanowar helps in the early game and lets you keep hands that you would otherwise want to mull, or speeds up hands without the proper accel for chalice or trinisphere, or jitte or natural order or whatever. The synergy with the rest of the deck makes up for the times that you can power out the disruption artifacts on turn one.

[Waikiki]

You should stop looking to this deck as an elephant stompy or dragon stompy type of deck It doesn't even run chrome moxen and city of traitors the deck is different and it's curve is lower. Llanowar elves do have synergie with the deck look better and test it out!

[scrumdogg]

Proponents of the Anusien/Clark Can't-Be-Bothered-To-Test School of Legacy should not be granted much creedence. I'm curious if any testing or consideration went into Vexing Shusher in the Selkie spot? Being able to ignore YOUR countermagic as well as theirs seems like a decent return on investment (and you get an equipment carrying bear as well). Furthermore, it necessitates removal from a deck wanting to counter your gamebreaking spells (like Natural Order) making the rest of your important guys somewhat safer.

[jazzykat]

Has the venerable Ice Storm been looked at. I know it is generally seen as a crap card but I see it as having a dramatic effect in combination with chalice=1 (making it that much harder to get to 2 mana), 3sphere, and killing manlands.

[B is for Big Job]

That idea in theory could work. It works for black(sink hole/ waste combo) and rarely do I not see sinkhole in a black deck (unless its zombies or if you want to count iccy as a black deck). With the accel of llanowar, esg and AT this could be a strong 2nd turn play and follow up with a trini and maybe a challice at one first turn!

[Michael Keller]

That idea in theory could work. It works for black(sink hole/ waste combo) and rarely do I not see sinkhole in a black deck (unless its zombies or if you want to count iccy as a black deck). With the accel of llanowar, esg and AT this could be a strong 2nd turn play and follow up with a trini and maybe a challice at one first turn!

It's sort of ironic: Last week just before contemplating a finalized version of the deck I was asking people for Ice Storms. I played them for a little while on Workstation (because of the lack of real ones) and they turned out surprisingly well. Again, no one I knew owned them on such short notice but they were impressive of sorts. I can see them as a possible fit.

I really want to avoid using cards like City of Traitors in the deck. I understand Ancient Tomb can deal damage, especially with an active Garruk. But all things considered, I might not even untap the tomb unless I really have to. Again, it's not like I would do that unless I really had to. I was more busy this past tournament making Beast tokens than anything else - and it worked.

To say Jitte and Sword do not work here is not a good evaluation. These cards work wonders and can put your opponent into a corner mid-way (or even earlier, depending on how fast you get them into play) through a match. They were responsible for many of my victories. I would never cut them.

Shusher might be kind of neat. I'm not sure what exactly he'd be necessary for. He might be all right. Not sure, though.

[Kuma]

Wasteland is here to supplement your creatures and put your opponent in a world of trouble in the esrly stages of the match. If they cannot recover soon after you drop a Tarmogoyf or an equipped dude, then they'll find themselves severely backed against the wall.

By the time you can drop and equip a dude, Wasteland will have lost much of its usefulness. You might steal some games with it, but it's probably not going to be nearly disruptive enough. We're not that fast.


As far as Trinisphere in the board goes: No, not for me, anyways. I understand this card's usefulness and I'd be foolish not to play any less than four in a deck solely designed to pin players under a light mana base and make them find answers to your threats very quickly.

If you're not going to run Chrome Mox, Trinisphere won't come down turn one nearly often enough. You could play a River Boa turn one, and a Trinisphere turn two, but it's pretty rare in Legacy for someone to not have three mana by turn three. The Wastelands help, sure, but you're spending a land to take out a land. This is slightly in your favor because you run more land, but it's not like your early creatures are so threatening as to kill your opponent before he can find land number three. You're looking at least turn four before you're going to be able to drop a creature, equip it, and play Trinisphere.

As for pinning players under a light mana base, the average Thresh hand contains two lands and a Brainstorm/Ponder that will on average find them a third land. No decent Thresh player will keep a one land hand against Chalice Aggro unless they have a cantrip and a free counterspell, which means you won't lock them with Chalice/Trinisphere.


Trinisphere punishes decks also playing Daze, which sets an opponent clearly back a turn and more open to hurt from Waste because of the makeshift Time Walk.

Right, but while Daze sets them back a turn, playing Trinisphere takes one of your turns. If you don't have a strong board position, your net gain is minimal.

Don't get me wrong, Wasteland and Trinisphere can be great together, but apart they don't do so much in this deck.

Trinisphere is great against decks running eight or more free spells and combo decks, and poor against pretty much everything else. If your metagame isn't at least half decks like that, it's a sideboard card.


Is it a dead draw later in the game? Perhaps. But assuming you play one early enough, do you think an opponent will let one stick? I drew a second one against T.E.S. and it was enough to seal the game. I'm not saying having more than one is always ideal;

Obviously an early Trinisphere is excellent against almost any deck, but the odds of you being on the play and having three mana plus a Trinisphere are so low that it's not worth the numerous other times where the card is nearly dead.


I'm simply stating there are benefits to playing Trinisphere in the main and my meta call was correct. I ended up playing against T.E.S., Counter-Top, and Ichorid (x2). Trinisphere was important in every one of those matches.

Of course there are benefits to playing Trinisphere in the main, and obviously if your meta looks like T.E.S., CounterTop, and Ichorid you should run Trinisphere in the main. Your metagame call was obviously correct for that tournament, but if your typical tournament doesn't look like that, you probably shouldn't be maindecking the card.


You're right, though: Against Merfolk, not so much. But that is the trade-off for a level-up on other decks that this deck can just take a hit for; you have plenty of answers to Merfolk in the deck. Trinisphere just happens to be a card you won't necessarily always want to play against them (even though Choke makes it infinitely better). But to sub out four (moderately negligent) cards when your deck is already tailored to handle blue aggro in general shouldn't make a world of difference. You already have a good match against Merfolk and with Trinisphere your match-ups against other decks (like Ichorid and Thresh variants) improves greatly - even again with the assistance of Wasteland.

You've already got River Boa, equipment, Chalice and Garruk game one for CounterTop. Is storm really so prevalent in your meta?

[Michael Keller]

By the time you can drop and equip a dude, Wasteland will have lost much of its usefulness. You might steal some games with it, but it's probably not going to be nearly disruptive enough. We're not that fast.

Wasteland rarely ever loses its usefulness. Anytime you have the opportunity to destroy an opponent's land and force them to find an answer immediately is never a bad play. Even if your opponent is land-heavy, it still produces a colorless and in the rare instance you don't find yourself using it, it won't matter anyways. If you're in a situation where an opponent has a lot of lands out, then you should too. No worries.


If you're not going to run Chrome Mox, Trinisphere won't come down turn one nearly often enough. You could play a River Boa turn one, and a Trinisphere turn two, but it's pretty rare in Legacy for someone to not have three mana by turn three. The Wastelands help, sure, but you're spending a land to take out a land. This is slightly in your favor because you run more land, but it's not like your early creatures are so threatening as to kill your opponent before he can find land number three. You're looking at least turn four before you're going to be able to drop a creature, equip it, and play Trinisphere.

Trinisphere doesn't have to come down as early as turn one to still be effective. I can still place pressure on an opponent by playing creatures and using the lock components to keep them on their heels. And on turn four, if an opponent sees a Trinisphere hitting the table under the circumstances you mention, they would be in immediate response mode. There is no way they'd let that creature stick with not being able to play anything during their own main phase to contradict my threat.


As for pinning players under a light mana base, the average Thresh hand contains two lands and a Brainstorm/Ponder that will on average find them a third land. No decent Thresh player will keep a one land hand against Chalice Aggro unless they have a cantrip and a free counterspell, which means you won't lock them with Chalice/Trinisphere.

If the average Thresh player opts to Brainstorm and Ponder for another land, let them do it. That's why I have Chalice, Trinisphere, and Wasteland; to punish them in the early game by forcing them to succumb to eliminating their primarily search and draw engines because of a simple Wasteland. And if that player Ponders turn one, what makes you think they'll look for a land anyways? If they're intelligent, they wouldn't have kept a one-lander and tapped out anyways because now they've opened themselves up for Wasteland. That's what I did this weekend and it worked.


Right, but while Daze sets them back a turn, playing Trinisphere takes one of your turns. If you don't have a strong board position, your net gain is minimal.

And if Daze sets them back a turn, and I'm looking at even more threats in my hand, then my net gain is maximum. They will be forced to having to find a solution to the amount of pressure being exerted on them so early with such little production. They have to tap out. And when they do, that is outstanding for me. That point you made is most invalid, because whenever a player sets themselves that far back against an aggro-control deck without a successful counter-spell, that is traumatic and can potentially be game-ending by as early as turn two.


Don't get me wrong, Wasteland and Trinisphere can be great together, but apart they don't do so much in this deck.

This makes no sense what so ever. Wasteland is perfectly fine on its own. No one said they have to be together to work fine. If an opponent opens with two land and one gets knocked off, that's a great thing. And if an opponent taps out to drop a creature or play a spell turn one or two, then they're going to have to contend with holding back and probably play defensively for the rest of the game until they get at least six land out to work with and around Trinisphere.


Trinisphere is great against decks running eight or more free spells and combo decks, and poor against pretty much everything else. If your metagame isn't at least half decks like that, it's a sideboard card.

Again: Completely false. You don't understand what Trinisphere can do even if your opponent doesn't play "zero-cost" spells. You will (again) force your opponent into playing less aggressive and more defensively when Trinisphere resolves because they have to adapt their game-state to deal with the threats you lay out. And when they tap out, no matter what they're playing, they'll be forced to deal with whatever bomb you end up dropping (such as Garruk or Natural Order).


Obviously an early Trinisphere is excellent against almost any deck, but the odds of you being on the play and having three mana plus a Trinisphere are so low that it's not worth the numerous other times where the card is nearly dead.

That's a risk I'm willing to take. There's also this thing called the "mulligan" that allows me to dictate whether or not I find my opening set of cards suitable for the match I'm playing. If Trinisphere is unwarranted in game one, then I'm "losing out" (and I use that term very loosely) on four cards. But it isn't a dead card if you use it properly, even late-game. What happens if your opponent taps out turn twelve (or has let's say, has two land open) and you have enough land yourself to go around and you drop Trinisphere first. Not only have you virtually shut-down whatever plans they had of countering your winning spell, but you've put them in a decision whether or not to counter it or leave it in play because of that very same reason.

You need to know how to use Trinisphere to its maximum capability.


Of course there are benefits to playing Trinisphere in the main, and obviously if your meta looks like T.E.S., CounterTop, and Ichorid you should run Trinisphere in the main. Your metagame call was obviously correct for that tournament, but if your typical tournament doesn't look like that, you probably shouldn't be maindecking the card.

This entire deck is meta-gamed for the current state of Legacy. Most of the decks currently winning tournaments in this format contain a general set of staples that are played in nearly every deck (or close to it). Those decks you listed are some of the best in the format right now. And there's a reason why most of them lost, and it was in part due to Trinisphere. And it wasn't just Trinisphere on turn one or two. There were plays where it hit the board by as late as turn six or seven and still became relevant.


You've already got River Boa, equipment, Chalice and Garruk game one for CounterTop. Is storm really so prevalent in your meta?

My meta consists of brainstorming a melting pot of ideas based on what everyone else is playing in any given area. I brought Trinisphere in the main to Binghamton because I knew there was a high probability there would be an alarming number of decks with a lower curve. I live on a military base, so I don't have the luxury of having a "set-in-stone" meta anymore, really. But for every big tournament I attend, I research what everyone is playing and where everyone is posting and I draw my conclusions from there. It's no less effective than watching film on the team you're playing against this week in sports.

Know your opponents and know what people like to play if you want to win games.

[MTG-Fan]

You really don't have too many answers to blue control except Choke in the SB.

Natural Order just seems better in a rock-like build or a Countertop build that can ensure NO resolves by using discard (Rock) or its own countermagic (countertop).

[Michael Keller]

You really don't have too many answers to blue control except Choke in the SB.

Natural Order just seems better in a rock-like build or a Countertop build that can ensure NO resolves by using discard (Rock) or its own counter-magic (countertop).

...What exactly are you talking about or trying to prove with that statement? Are you always so pessimistic that you think a deck needs sixty of a single card to win against something else?

This deck is designed to specifically beat blue control-based decks and blue-based aggro decks as a whole. Cards like: Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void, Wasteland, River Boa (with equipment), four freakin' Choke, Sword of Fire and Ice (protection from blue), Garruk (his ability to generate uncounterable tokens, Krosan Grip (which destroys Shackles, Disk, Keg, Propaganda, Top, C.B. etc.), Wickerbough Elder (which does the same), Elvish Spirit Guide (to counter Daze, Force Spike, etc.).

And when all the counter-magic is depleted from an opponent's hand, drop a 5/6 or 6/7 Tarmogoyf with all those cards in the graveyard that never saw play.

I'll make sure my opponent depletes his or her hand as quickly as possible in hopes of countering every single threat I establish. Then I'll be more than happy to drop Choke on them when they're all tapped out.

I also play acceleration with green creatures like Llanowar Elves and the planeswalker Garruk; providing me tokens and the ability to untap my lands. Explain to me how Natural Order isn't relevant when I just got done winning 50% of my matches in a 59 player tournament because of it.

Aggro is a tremendous match for blue-based control decks. And especially this hybrid, because all of the cards in the deck pretty much scream, "I hate blue."

[beastman]

River boa plus equipment seems good against blue. So does trinisphere, garruck and chalice and..... well, do you see where this is going???

[Michael Keller]

River boa plus equipment seems good against blue. So does trinisphere, garruck and chalice and..... well, do you see where this is going???

And the beauty of Mono Green Chalice Aggro is: Even if you don't play against Islands, you still have tremendous match-ups with a lot of established decks in the format.

[B is for Big Job]

You really don't have too many answers to blue control except Choke in the SB.

Natural Order just seems better in a rock-like build or a Countertop build that can ensure NO resolves by using discard (Rock) or its own countermagic (countertop).

The whole deck is made to built blue. If you read the primer, any of the posts or the actual deck list you can tell thats what its made for. NO isnt played in just rock builds. This deck has challice and trini to protect NO, other than the fact this deck can go turn 2 NO against some decks and just win the game

[MTG-Fan]

Also, isn't there supposed to be some kind of tournament presence required before a deck is formally "established"?

Has anybody even piloted this thing to a top8 at a big tournament yet?

[Goblin Snowman]

Also, isn't there supposed to be some kind of tournament presence required before a deck is formally "established"?

Has anybody even piloted this thing to a top8 at a big tournament yet?



"For "finished" decks: Decks which are optimized and thoroughly tested. A deck is not required to have proven itself in a competitive tournament environment to be included in the Open Forum, but it is recommended. A thorough writeup including card choices, strategy, and matchup descriptions is required."

Edit - A cursory search shows that, yes, it has.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14331
3rd @ Jupiter's 40 Duel Land Draft in a field of 59 players.

[Michael Keller]

Also, isn't there supposed to be some kind of tournament presence required before a deck is formally "established"?

Has anybody even piloted this thing to a top8 at a big tournament yet?

...Seriously? (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14331)

At any rate, I've been updating my list and should have a new one ready soon. If anyone else has a list they'd like to post, feel free. I'd love to see what direction everyone is looking to go with this.

[beastman]

Also, isn't there supposed to be some kind of tournament presence required before a deck is formally "established"?

Has anybody even piloted this thing to a top8 at a big tournament yet?

Trollmonger is trolling!!!
Seriously dude, do you have a chip on your shoulder or what?

[Obfuscate Freely]

So, Mike, I have been trying to figure this out since I saw your list, but I keep coming up blank. I get the feeling that I'm missing something, but i'll ask anyway:

Why don't you have any fetchlands to tutor up Dryad Arbor?

[Michael Keller]

So, Mike, I have been trying to figure this out since I saw your list, but I keep coming up blank. I get the feeling that I'm missing something, but i'll ask anyway:

Why don't you have any fetchlands to tutor up Dryad Arbor?

I was considering it, but I didn't know for sure if I wanted run my list up a little more open to Stifle hate, you know? There's only a single Arbor in the deck. I was kind of thinking maybe adding two or three fetches in there. Those might be a good substitute for the previously unhelpful Pendelhavens.

[scrumdogg]

Also, isn't there supposed to be some kind of tournament presence required before a deck is formally "established"?

Has anybody even piloted this thing to a top8 at a big tournament yet?

Tips for not appearing actively retarded on the Internet:

1) Read
A) Opening posts & primers
B) following posts (winnowing out the really dumb comments, if any)
2) Actually test something before commenting
A) helps if one actually plays...
3) Proofread posts before flailing at keyboard & hitting <xmit>
4) Hope your parents avoided skinny dipping in the shallow end of the gene pool
A) if this has already happened, break the chain, DO NOT CONTINUE! Stop the hate (and the inbreeding....)

On a deck related note, I will be testing the Shushers (after GP Boston...that kinda has priority right now) for reasons already mentioned. On the Trinisphere debate, given that they are never completely dead (depending on how one plays the deck) and amazing in certain matchups, plus they can always be sided out, I'm failing to see what would replace them that has the same impact. That is the flip side to denigrating a card choice, what replaces it and why? Will the replacement give the same (or added value) especially in the matchups/role where <original card> shined? Why?

[heroicraptor]

How is this different from Elephant Stompy?

[tsabo_tavoc]

How is this different from Elephant Stompy?

From my view, Elephant Stompy is a 12-bombs.dec with 4 Natural Order+4 Garruk+4 Spawnwrithe. This deck does not feature on Spawnwrithe and therefore runs 0 Briarhorn, 0 City of Traitors and 0 Chrome Mox. It has River Boas, Wickerbough Elders, Jittes and Wastelands instead. The decks function similar in the way they play the common 8 bomb spells. Spawnwrithe + Briarhorn is a blast as well as Evasive + Jittes and both are weak against creature removal. Elephant Stompy is more explosive thanks to City of Traitors and Chrome Mox (I also play mana elf there) whereas this deck avoids their card disadvantage but suffers from the G producing consistency. The Wasteland and the freed 4cc slots to play Elders are the strength of this deck.

[Kuma]

Wasteland rarely ever loses its usefulness. Anytime you have the opportunity to destroy an opponent's land and force them to find an answer immediately is never a bad play.

Find an answer to what? Are you saying that when you have something on the board that must be answered destroying a land is huge? That depends on what their answers are and how much land they have.


Even if your opponent is land-heavy, it still produces a colorless and in the rare instance you don't find yourself using it, it won't matter anyways.

This is dangerously close to the "it pitches to Force of Will" argument for bad blue cards. With all the GG costs in the deck and the activated abilities of Wickerbough Elder and River Boa, I'd think you want more green mana.


Trinisphere doesn't have to come down as early as turn one to still be effective.

Against decks not playing a lot of free spells, it really has to come down turn one.

Consider this scenario where you play a turn one Trinisphere on the play:

You: Turn one Trinisphere. (one turn spent)

Them: Land, go. (one turn spent)

You: Creature, go.

Them: Land, go. (two turns spent)

You: Something, go.

Them: Land, something

This is the best case scenario for your opponent if you drop a turn one on the play Trinisphere. You spent one turn playing Trinisphere and they spent at least two turns doing nothing. You have at least a +1 turn advantage here. Very powerful.

Turn one Trinisphere on the draw:

Them: Land, something

You: Trinisphere (one turn spent)

Them: Land, go (one turn spent)

You: Something

Them: Land, something

This is the best case scenario for your opponent if you drop a Trinisphere turn one on the draw. You have a minimum zero turn advantage here, meaning at worst you have whatever benefits Trinisphere grants you for the rest of the game against an opponent with three lands. While Trinisphere may be very useful in this situation, there are no guarantees it does anything for you. It is, however, just as good as the above situation if the opponent does nothing but lay a land on their first turn.

Turn two Trinisphere on the play plays out nearly the same as the above situation.

Turn two Trinisphere on the draw:

Them: Land, something

You: Land, something

Them: Land, something

You: Trinisphere (one turn spent)

Them: Land, something

Best case scenario for them is you spending a turn playing Trinisphere and they don't miss a step. You spend a turn and only gain whatever benefit Trinisphere gives you when your opponent has three mana, which against most decks is minimal.

It only gets worse from here. Most Legacy decks don't play multiple spells per turn, so once they have three mana, you're not getting much benefit from Trinisphere.

Of course there is the possibility your opponent gets stuck on two land, but I wouldn't rely on that.


I can still place pressure on an opponent by playing creatures and using the lock components to keep them on their heels.

I know how Chalice Aggro works. I'm debating how effective Trinisphere is at doing this.


And on turn four, if an opponent sees a Trinisphere hitting the table under the circumstances you mention, they would be in immediate response mode. There is no way they'd let that creature stick with not being able to play anything during their own main phase to contradict my threat.

Response mode as in they have to answer your Trinisphere? Why wouldn't they be able to play anything during their main phase on turn four? I don't follow; why would they have to stop a creature because you dropped Trinisphere?


Again: Completely false. You don't understand what Trinisphere can do even if your opponent doesn't play "zero-cost" spells. You will (again) force your opponent into playing less aggressive and more defensively when Trinisphere resolves because they have to adapt their game-state to deal with the threats you lay out. And when they tap out, no matter what they're playing, they'll be forced to deal with whatever bomb you end up dropping (such as Garruk or Natural Order).

Why can't they continue to drop threats when Trinisphere is out? This, and your other arguments I didn't respond to all seem to pertain to decks with copious amounts of free countermagic. Trinisphere is incredibly useful against these decks --- I've never said otherwise.

[beastman]

Trinisphere is one of the best cards in the deck. As discussed from the beginning of the thread, it puts lots of pressure on light mana bases, and hurts combo enough for it to be an auto 4 of. Most of the metagame nowadays is comprised of mana light decks which includes thresh and all its variants. I watched this deck play a few rounds at the tournament the other day, and a turn 1 trini resolved on the play is game over. Having a card like that is huge in this deck.

[Kuma]

Odds of a turn one Trinisphere on the play in Hollywood's list:

3%

.4^3 * .5 (Assuming a 50% chance of being on the play)

[beastman]

Thats not the point, even though it sounds like you just made that number up, but the fact is, it is an amazing card. And it gives you a bunch of wins against threshold preboard, as very few lists run answers to artifacts main

[Michael Keller]

...yep...mhmm...yep...

Look, I'm not going to sit here and debate with you on cards that have obviously proven their effectiveness in the most dangerous of metagames. Trinisphere was an absolute house. I can't put it any more than that. It won me rounds. It won me duals. Everyone else seems to be in agreement here that Trinisphere is by far a critical lock component in this build and should not be moved to the sideboard...yet. There is no diagnostic evidence to support anything you said, because the facts are right there in front of you.

I can understand the logic in your argument, but what you fail to ultimately realize is that I don't care if Trinisphere becomes a dead card later in the game. Do you know how many playable cards become that way as time goes on? It's the nature of the beast. If you don't want to main it, fine by me. But it is there because if I do draw it - or mull to it - like I did - then it becomes very relevant.

My priority is to fix the mana-base and rotate cards out that do not belong. I can understand why you don't like Trinisphere main, and that is fine. Personally, I like it. And in nearly every major tournament I've played in for the last year, I've main-decked it with some impressive results. I'm just saying (like I said before), know what you'll be facing in a large field of players and weigh which cards do better than others.

Trinisphere hoses A LOT of decks in the format right now. This is why I played it and this is a good part of the reason I placed third. I'm not selling a point, I'm simply stating the reality of the situation. If I can do that, anyone else can too.

[B is for Big Job]

Hey hollywood, have you tried kitchen finks in the selkie spot? Its amazing. The lifegain makes tomb so much better, makes me untap it more often. He may be only a 3/2 but persist just makes him more valueable. With SoFI from the board just makes him more versitile but making him stick around longer. The 1 problem is the GG in casting cost but is still easy to cast thanks to elf man

[Michael Keller]

Hey hollywood, have you tried kitchen finks in the selkie spot? Its amazing. The lifegain makes tomb so much better, makes me untap it more often. He may be only a 3/2 but persist just makes him more valueable. With SoFI from the board just makes him more versitile but making him stick around longer. The 1 problem is the GG in casting cost but is still easy to cast thanks to elf man

I was looking at Kitchen Finks originally as a sideboard slot before the Dual Land Draft. In the first list I was working on, I wanted a creature of some sort that could give me a little breathing room by giving me extra life to counter-act the Ancient Tomb damage. However, decks that pack enough burn to do a legitimate amount of damage should have serious problems getting around Chalice set at one or even a Trinisphere on board. Goyfs also do have the power to race burn.

I was toying with the notion of side-boarding Trinisphere after some serious thought. I think it is a fantastic card, no doubt, but I want the deck to live up to its name a little more with the "aggro" side of things.

In the main list, here is essentially what I've been leaning towards. I haven't decided whether or not to exclude Trinisphere from the main build. Remember, these are just thoughts:

-4 Trinisphere
-4 River Boa
-3 Cold Eyed Selkie
-2 Pendelhaven

+4 Scryb Ranger
+3 Loaming Shaman
+2 Sword of Fire and Ice
+2 Wooded Foothills
+1 Forest
+1 Wickerbough Elder

Of course, by doing this, I would reconfigure the sideboard to accommodate Trinisphere. With Sword of Fire and Ice making its way into the main (which I believe it should have in the first place), I think the deck now has an incredibly larger amount of fire-power that was lacking before. Sword is never a dead draw. It's a tide-turner and just generates an obscene amount of card-advantage.

Scryb Ranger is quite nasty with his built-in Quirion Ranger effect. And with Flash, he can stave off an attack and pull off all sorts of neat combat and casting tricks when the situation calls for it. Toss in the flying, protection from blue ability, and any equipment attached and you've got one pretty pissed off Faerie. I think this card is far too useful given its exact abilities to be excluded from this deck. It is the perfect fit.

I've upgraded the list to a brick-solid five equipment (three Jitte and two Sword). I really think these cards put extra pressure on an opponent to find an answer to your immediate threats rather than sit on them and wait for an attack. Once they actually do damage with either of these, that is a whole separate win condition in itself. They make every single creature in your deck relevant. That is indisputable.

Fetches help thin the deck a little more and give a nice touch to be able and get yourself a critter when you have a Natural Order in hand with no guys on the table. Those things can happen, so this is a neat way of inadvertently fetching for Progenitus.

I kind of like these new changes. I'm really trying to adjust the list to work better with Ancient Tomb. I think this works out well. The sideboard is a completely different issue and will really (once again) depend on meta adjustment. I will see how Trinisphere works in the board. It might end up looking something similar to this:

//Sideboard
[4x] Trinisphere
[4x] Choke
[3x] Krosan Grip
[3x] Tormod's Crypt
[1x] Miscellaneous

Let me know what you all think. I was thinking of possibly another target for Natural Order in the sideboard. Of course, sideboards change and change often, so it is hard to keep one set in stone or maintain one that would be considered universal. I've basically taken just about everyone's advice on the matter and made some sort of contribution based on those ideas, which frankly I think are great ones. I just think the deck needed to cut back on the double-green a tad and make more things happen in the combat step without Progenitus on the table.

[B is for Big Job]

If more aggro is the way to go, then why not add spawnwrithe? I know this isnt elephant stompy but it still goes to say that the card is good in this deck and is a great creature. If unanswered can make a game real short and is a decent top deck creature and those tokens do add more green creatures for NO.

Loaming shaman is an interesting choice. I can see that thing slowing down alot of decks, almost like an ok replacement for trinny

[Mystical_Jackass]

Trinisphere is a great card for all the reasons you guys have stated.. well, I think it might be better as a side though. It just adds... a little too much on the control imo, sorta getting closer to stax and less aggro.

I guess its a judgement call, if you think you're gonna be up against heavy weenie zoo decks or combo, but still.. I think Chalice does a good enough job, removing.. that's 4 more creatures you could use, like briarhorn or loaming shaman to put more pressure on opponent.

I think players had tried spawnwrithe before, in conjunction with tangle wire & briarhorn it just expedites and ends games quick. Part of me likes it, but the other part is that he's just sorta a nub on his own lol, 2/2 is pretty "meh" for Green, the color that's known for its all powerful beaters lol.
I like the idea of SoFI with spawnwrithe though, that has some potential evileness :) Since green doesn't offer the evasion of Blue, trample is a great way to go.

All else fails, throw in a revised Serendib Efreet, that counts as green right? :P

[Tacosnape]

I have no idea whether to post here or in Elephant Stompy, because my build seems to be right in between the two. I don't run Chrome Mox or Spawnwrithe, but I do run City of Traitors and Briarhorn, as well as Loaming Shaman and Wickerbough Elder. I also run more 1-drop mana elves and thrive on the concept of hitting 4 mana on turn 2 often when needed. (Turn two Garruk/Trinisphere, turn two Natural Order, turn two Chal-2, etc.)

[Michael Keller]

I have no idea whether to post here or in Elephant Stompy, because my build seems to be right in between the two. I don't run Chrome Mox or Spawnwrithe, but I do run City of Traitors and Briarhorn, as well as Loaming Shaman and Wickerbough Elder. I also run more 1-drop mana elves and thrive on the concept of hitting 4 mana on turn 2 often when needed. (Turn two Garruk/Trinisphere, turn two Natural Order, turn two Chal-2, etc.)

Right, but by playing more Elves, you're also hurting yourself a little more with Chalice set at one counter. I'm not sure how many you play, but putting yourself in harm's way with sacrifices from the City of Traitors and the inability to cast a Chalice at turn one (effectively shutting down your acceleration package) can be rather detrimental to the ebb and flow of your match.

I'm not saying Elves aren't good for acceleration, it's just I'd rather work my way to four mana without having the burden of sacrifice on my shoulders and the ability to establish threats without having to get to four mana by turn two.

Chalice at two is good against some opponents, but this build it wouldn't be such a great idea unless you were playing a match where it was absolutely necessary. There are some key spells that cost two in this deck. I'm not saying it is imperative not to Chalice at two, but it can hurt you a little bit as well.

I do like the idea of Loaming Shaman; it can really damage the Ichorid (and the like) player like Trinisphere does, except it is a body for Natural Order and equipment.

[Kuma]

Thats not the point, even though it sounds like you just made that number up.

Odds of having a card in your opening seven that you have four of in the deck = ~40%

Odds you're going first = ~50%

In order for Hollywood to cast a turn one Trinisphere on the play he needs an Ancient Tomb, an Elvish Spirit Guide, a Trinisphere, and he needs to go first.

.40 (odds to have Ancient Tomb) * (and) .40 (odds to have Elvish Spirit Guide) * (and) .40 (odds to have Trinisphere) * (and) .50 (odds of being on the play) = .032 = 3.2%

Don't accuse me of making up numbers unless you can back it up.


I was thinking of possibly another target for Natural Order in the sideboard.

I ran an Empyrial Archangel in the board for a while and I absolutely hated it. Even when I boarded it in I found myself going for Progenitus at least nine times out of ten. And when I did get it out, it was usually an expensive Fog.

I don't recommend running a second NO target.

Also, have you tried Spawnwrithe? With all that equipment it seems like it would be really good in your list. After Natural Order, he's been the MVP of my list. If he hits your opponent, you win.

[Michael Keller]

Odds of having a card in your opening seven that you have four of in the deck = ~40%

Odds you're going first = ~50%

In order for Hollywood to cast a turn one Trinisphere on the play he needs an Ancient Tomb, an Elvish Spirit Guide, a Trinisphere, and he needs to go first.

.40 (odds to have Ancient Tomb) * (and) .40 (odds to have Elvish Spirit Guide) * (and) .40 (odds to have Trinisphere) * (and) .50 (odds of being on the play) = .032 = 3.2%

Don't accuse me of making up numbers unless you can back it up.


I ran an Empyrial Archangel in the board for a while and I absolutely hated it. Even when I boarded it in I found myself going for Progenitus at least nine times out of ten. And when I did get it out, it was usually an expensive Fog.

I don't recommend running a second NO target.

Also, have you tried Spawnwrithe? With all that equipment it seems like it would be really good in your list. After Natural Order, he's been the MVP of my list. If he hits your opponent, you win.

I had him in a mock Stax list I was running in testing for the tournament. I really think Spawnwrithe could be devastating with more equipment because he doesn't necessarily scream, "Win more." And to pump him up to make his trample ability even more relevant, he is probably even more viable than before. He just puts copies of himself into play that makes it all the hard to stop the bleeding.

He also fits the curve well with Ancient Tomb at 2G. I'd have to reconsider my early threats to accomodate him.

[Tacosnape]

Chalice at two is good against some opponents, but this build it wouldn't be such a great idea unless you were playing a match where it was absolutely necessary. There are some key spells that cost two in this deck. I'm not saying it is imperative not to Chalice at two, but it can hurt you a little bit as well.

Well, technically, it hurts you. I have 0 2-drops in my deck, except for Chalice at 1 and Jitte in board. This is what's odd. Three quarters of our decklists are similar, but mine plays nothing like yours, nor anything like Elephant Stompy. I might have to start a third entire thread for my deck.

Don't get me wrong. I like your list a lot. I just don't have near the blue in my metagame to warrant it.

But your point on the 1-drop elves is well noted. I've been fluctuating between six and eight, I hate dropping Chal-1 on an elfless hand and then topdecking two in the next four cards or so.

This is really random and I don't know given your curve how strong it is, but have you considered Defense of the Heart in your sideboard for Zoo, Goblins, Merfolk, and other random aggro decks? I've been tinkering around with it and I like it. I pack three, and have been toying with alternate second creatures to get with it. Against Zoo, Progenitus/Loaming Shaman is fun to reset their Goyfs. Against Merfolk or Goblins, Progenitus/Wickerbough eats Vials. Etc. It's even better if you run the second NO target you were contemplating.

[AngryTroll]

Edit: This guy disagrees with me on the math. http://www.kibble.net/magic/magic10.php
Although I'm not completely convinced that he's right, I can convince myself that two different numbers are correct, using two different approaches, so I'll defer to his math. My bad.

[Maveric78f]

Angrytroll: the problem with your numbers is that they are not disjoint, meaning that they can't be added. The good process for computing this probability is the following one:

The probability of drawing at least one of a four-of in a 7-card hand from a 60-card deck is 1 minus the probability of drawing none of them. The probability of drawing none of them is easy to compute: you have to draw one of the 56 other cards in your first pich, then one of the 55 remaining other careds in your second pick, and so on until the 7th.

P(draw at least 1) = 1 - 56*55*54*53*52*51*50/(60*59*58*57*56*55*54)
P(draw at least 1) = 1 - 53*52*51*50/(60*59*58*57)
P(draw at least 1) = 39.9%

So yeah, 40% chance is a good approximation, better than yours at least.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

Edit: This guy disagrees with me on the math. http://www.kibble.net/magic/magic10.php
I'm not sure why we disagree, though.
Because you aren't using the correct formula, so you're getting the wrong answer. When you want to figure out probability of drawing at least 1 card, you need to figure out the probability of drawing exactly 0 and subtract that probability from 1. The guy in that link explains it pretty well, but if you're still having trouble you can try:
http://www.mathsisfun.com/combinatorics/combinations-permutations.html

[Maveric78f]

A ninja point point for me.

Edit: for not only bragging.

If your question is the probability of drawing at least 1 trinisphere, 1 ancient tomb and 1 ESG in the opening 7, then the math are a big more complex and to get an close approximation, I would consider the MonteCarlo algorithm (repeat the drawing 1 billion times and evaluate how many times a turn 1 trinisphere happened). That requires programming and I won't do that. But if you want a majorant you can take the (40%)^3 = 6.4%. I'm quite sure it's far above the real number though.

Edit 2: Another majorant is 4.2%. This one should be quite close to the reality.

[Tacosnape]

Without getting into the math arguments, the problem with the Tomb/Esg/Trinisphere/4 Blank Cards logic is that it doesn't consider the following:

1. The chances of getting it in a 6-card hand after you mulligan a 7, which means you'd need to calculate the probability of a keepable 7-card hand, which is all speculative based on matchups and probably impossible.

2. What the other four cards are. For example, you aren't always going to keep Tomb/Esg/Trinisphere/4 Land, nor might you want to necessarily keep Tomb/Tomb/Esg/Trinisphere/Trinisphere/Trinisphere/Jitte, etc so on.

The point is made, however. The turn one Trinisphere isn't going to happen much.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Yea, too many variables go into pulling off turn1 trinisphere. Maybe in the land of pure imagination, we can dream of first turn trinis against every matchup and smile complacent as we drift asleep ;P

I believe that Trinisphere is much more situational than Chalice is in most matchups, so sideboard it is. Trinisphere slows down, Chalice shuts down.

[Tacosnape]

Actually, I just said the point was made. I still think Trinisphere should be maindecked.

[dirtyapes]

Actually, I just said the point was made. I still think Trinisphere should be maindecked.

/agreed

It took 3rd at a large tournament with it maindecked, I think that it proved it was worth the spot. Results > Math

[Kuma]

It took 3rd at a large tournament with it maindecked, I think that it proved it was worth the spot. Results > Math

:really:

This is a small sample size fallacy at best and completely disingeneous at worst.

Just because a deck did well at a particular tournament, no matter how large, doesn't mean its card choices were ideal.

The highest placing Faerie Stompy list at GP Chicago had Force of Will in the sideboard.

The high placing Dragon Stompy list at GP Chicago hasn't led to people running fifteen singletons in their sideboards. Why not? Because these are obviously subpar decisions (I'm not saying Trinisphere is obviously subpar, I'm making a general statement about this kind of reasoning).

Who's to say these decks wouldn't have done even better with different card choices?

[Tacosnape]

Strangely I kind of agree with Kuma. Decks that place higher than the rest with one or two random card choices should be examined, and neither necessarily dismissed or automatically considered to be superior.

If I go run a Countertop list that's packing a maindeck Shivan Dragon, for example, and win a tournament with it? It probably means I won in spite of Shivan Dragon and not because of it, even if I resolved it and won a game with it once or twice.

That said, I still like Trinisphere in this list.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Exactly, scrutinize them and get a feel for what worked and what didn't... well, obviously it didn't win 1st place (not meant to sound snobby btw), so what didn't work? That's what its all about.


Needs more baseline testing, otherwise we're just picking out peaks in a graph to represent the mean. lol

But your right then, if Trinisphere proved to do really well it should stay in till someone proves a better option.

[georgjorge]

Hmm, but didn't Hollywood, who did the placing in the tournament, just say on the previous page that he's probably moving them to the side (strangely one or two posts after telling Kuma that they were proven to be very good in the main) ?

[dirtyapes]

I was just saying that you can't use a mathematical probability of dropping a first turn Trinisphere as the basis of dropping a card from a deck. It produced with them in the deck so I'm not going to say drop them based on probability. If testing proves that Trinisphere should be moved to the SB then great because it makes the deck better. I just don't like the idea of taking something out without testing to make sure it is the right move.

[Michael Keller]

Hmm, but didn't Hollywood, who did the placing in the tournament, just say on the previous page that he's probably moving them to the side (strangely one or two posts after telling Kuma that they were proven to be very good in the main) ?

I said it wasn't definite yet in my posting. What I'm currently trying to decide is what slots are considerably wide-open more than others. Trinisphere is one of those cards that could realistically go either way; it doesn't have to be just side-boarded to be great. These cards have had ample time over the years to prove themselves worthy of a main-deck slot.

I was considering moving it to the side because I was taking people's points into consideration. I understand why folks think it is better in the side-board; the same thing happened with Imperial Painter (a whole different beast, but none the less).

Trinisphere works well in big tournaments because against most decks, it can be crushing if it is dropped in the first few turns. If not, it does lose its luster over time but there are still ways it can be effective. It did well in the main for one big tournament, so I am still not convinced out-right. But I don't think it was a fluke either, because the decks I played against and beat using Trinisphere, it ended up being the deal-breaker.

If a single card can be that effective in the early-goings of a game, it certainly warrants inclusion in the 75-card list. Whether or not it finds its way to a main-slot is still undecided.

[4eak]

After sitting down to play this deck, I have to say, I was impressed. In my eyes, Tarmogoyf is the best reason to play Green as the primary color of a chalice deck. Natural Order->Progenitus seems like the next best reason, Choke's Anti-Blue awesomeness the next, and ESG seems like a distant 4th.

This isn't directly a mono green chalice question, but would it be worth splashing for red for Moon effects? You already have Chalice/Trinisphere, Moon just makes the deck that more dangerous. You would still be primarily a green chalice deck, but splashing wouldn't be difficult.

Taiga can replace a few Forests, and Wooded Foothills might already be worth running for Dryad Arbor. Throw in SSG (which is excellent for Turn 1 plays), and you should have an acceptable splash.

Perhaps:

// Lands
6 [ARE] Forest (7)
4 [A] Taiga
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
1 [CFX] Progenitus
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders (generally colorless, pitches junk, CoTV@1-stuck Elves, or a stuck Prog in hand)
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [B] Llanowar Elves (I'd prefer this stay Elves, but BoP or another R/G source like Chrome Mox would be acceptable)

// Spells
2 [M10] Garruk Wildspeaker
3 [PT] Natural Order
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [DS] Trinisphere

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TE] Choke
SB: 2 [EVE] Wickerbough Elder
SB: 3 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [9E] Blood Moon
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

Just a thought of course. Moon effects spell 'GG' for too many decks not to consider it.

Of course, I have a hard-on for Goyf+Moon+Chalice/3Sphere+8 Spirit Guides. I always wondered if Imperial Recruiter would be useful in such a deck as well.





peace,
4eak

[paK0]

Sry if i overlooked it, but has anyone tried Spawnwrithe?
If Trini stays main it seems like a total gamewinner.

[Michael Keller]

After sitting down to play this deck, I have to say, I was impressed. In my eyes, Tarmogoyf is the best reason to play Green as the primary color of a chalice deck. Natural Order->Progenitus seems like the next best reason, Choke's Anti-Blue awesomeness the next, and ESG seems like a distant 4th.

This isn't directly a mono green chalice question, but would it be worth splashing for red for Moon effects? You already have Chalice/Trinisphere, Moon just makes the deck that more dangerous. You would still be primarily a green chalice deck, but splashing wouldn't be difficult.

Taiga can replace a few Forests, and Wooded Foothills might already be worth running for Dryad Arbor. Throw in SSG (which is excellent for Turn 1 plays), and you should have an acceptable splash.

Perhaps:

// Lands
6 [ARE] Forest (7)
4 [A] Taiga
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
1 [CFX] Progenitus
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders (generally colorless, pitches junk, CoTV@1-stuck Elves, or a stuck Prog in hand)
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [B] Llanowar Elves (I'd prefer this stay Elves, but BoP or another R/G source like Chrome Mox would be acceptable)

// Spells
2 [M10] Garruk Wildspeaker
3 [PT] Natural Order
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [DS] Trinisphere

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TE] Choke
SB: 2 [EVE] Wickerbough Elder
SB: 3 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [9E] Blood Moon
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

Just a thought of course. Moon effects spell 'GG' for too many decks not to consider it.

Of course, I have a hard-on for Goyf+Moon+Chalice/3Sphere+8 Spirit Guides. I always wondered if Imperial Recruiter would be useful in such a deck as well.





peace,
4eak

This is a mono-colored deck, so the inclusion of red cards defeats the whole purpose of the title. This is not the place for splashes.

One of the primary reasons the deck runs a single color is to avoid Waste and Moon effects, essentially rendering useless four to eight cards an opponent might play. In your list, you've opened up to hate from both Stifle and Wasteland. Moon effects or not, this is not the place to digress from what the original intentions of concept design were for the deck: To play to green's strengths and render the most played cards in the format useless. I don't want the deck to devolve into a Dragon Stompy variant with big red creatures instead of green.

You've also diluted the original concept by playing red creatures over green. This can absolutely punish your hand if you have to Natural Order in any given scenario.

It's simplicity; sometimes adding colors can be a good thing. Other times, it might not. Here, it isn't necessary.

[frodo21]

Hi all. I am new on this thread and on the source. I am French so I'll try to speak in a not-so-bad English... :wink:

I intensively tested the deck (spending these two nights testing...), so I can affirm that all my choices are the results of these tests. That said, I can (and I am probably) be wrong in my choices... But let's see my current version :

4 Llanowar elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Wickerbough
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 River Boa
2 Deadly Recluse
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
2 Isao, Enlightened Bushi

4 Wasteland
1 Pendelhaven
4 Ancient Tomb
12 Forest

I had played Green Stompy for a long time without success I must say, so when I saw your list I was impressed by its lack of explosivness (I don't know if this word exists, I mean there the capacity of making huge first turn) : no cities, no moxen, ...
I tested your list and I find that the consistency is the key of the deck and makes it superior to Green Stompy.
This is also why I play two more lands than you Hollywood and -2 ESG. I also added one Llanowar like because it is such a good first turn... even though it lacks the synergy with CotV...

I only play 3 tarmogoyf. It may seem to be a weird choice. But in fact in this deck he is not such a house. I mean, the deck often plays the defensive role, waiting for the 4cc breakers. Tarmo is not good in this deck to put a early pressure, because you won't have cards enough cards in your grave (even if you are countered...). It is also a bad wall in this deck in the early game.

The deck as powerful 4cc spells. I mean : garruk, NO, wikerbough (less), jitte+ equip, and CotV at 2 (amazing against many decks !!). That said, I think that the deck as to be build in order to reach these four manas with the best board control as possible (the deck plays 56 permanents...).
I found that creatures that regenerate (boa and Isao) or can kill whatever creature (reach+deathtouch) are amazing in this deck : they gain you life, so time, so that you can reach your 4 manas.
Their strong resilience to damages make of them strong walls.

Wikerbough is a house in the deck, one should play at least three of them.

My current sideboard :

4 Choke
3 Hail Storm
2 Snakeform
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Tormod's Crypt

I hope I didn't make too many mistakes...:cry:

peace

Frodo.

[Mystical_Jackass]

What you said made a lot of sense.

1/2 Spider with deathtouch. Well, I love how you're putting M10 to use :)
That's a really interesting idea, if the creature was 1/3 that'd be so gg but I suppose its a great idea to have against Faerie Stompy or Akroma. Just seems like sorta a bad play dropping a creature that can only go 1-for-1 with most others.

I agree with Wickerbough Elder.. I dunno about Isao. He's kinda bad :\

Briarhorn is too good not to have some of imo.
Flash
innate giant growth = creature removal/Finisher (your running River Boa too, that's instant 5/4 landwalker in some games)
Evoke, which makes him more versatile if you dont have the mana and need to use the ability. Can be used to keep other creatures alive for NO.

[4eak]

@ Hollywood

Your post wasn't very charitable to my question at all (almost as if you've over-reacted or taken this too personally). I'll be happy to explain my thoughts for you again.


This is a mono-colored deck, so the inclusion of red cards defeats the whole purpose of the title. This is not the place for splashes.

Thanks for that clarification. Considering it is the current living post (because there are many on this site) for a primarily green chalice deck, I think it was the appropriate place to ask if 'splashing for Moons in a primarily Green chalice deck' should be considered.

You did not explain why playing exclusively green, as opposed to primarily green with splashes or other variations, was necessary in your opening post. You clearly think this is an important issue, so feel free to add that to your primer.


Moon effects or not, this is not the place to digress from what the original intentions of concept design were for the deck: To play to green's strengths and render the most played cards in the format useless. I don't want the deck to devolve into a Dragon Stompy variant with big red creatures instead of green.

Be charitable; You and I both know the intent of my question was not to 'digress' into a bad version of Dragon Stompy. I've certainly held steadfast to the most important original design elements of this deck. I've already stated what I considered to be the real strengths of a primarily Green Chalice deck:


Tarmogoyf
NO-Progenitus
Choke
ESG and other Green creature mana producers

I think I kept the heart of the deck intact, and I'm clearly not trying to 'devolve' (you continue to use weasel words) the deck. I wouldn't have asked a question unless I thought it would be a relevant one, and I'm sure you didn't mean to imply otherwise. I still think I have a good question:

Why not play Moon effects? Moon is clearly a powerhouse is similar archetypes. The splash is certainly possible (particularly in green), and we should explore the depth of risk of splashing, and consider the benefits of having Moon effects, increased explosiveness from SSG, and whatever other cards might be useful to this deck.

You provided three actual reasons (from what I can tell) why we should not splash:


Splashing makes the mana base less consistent in the face of Wasteland/Stifle
Splashing decreases overall color consistency
Using red creatures, instead of green ones, decreases the saccable fodder for Natural order


Let me handle these one at a time.


(1): Splashing makes the mana base less consistent in the face of Wasteland/Stifle

Your deck:

[4x] Ancient Tomb
[4x] Wasteland
[2x] Pendelhaven
[1x] Dryad Arbor

13 cards which are subject to Wasteland. My thought-experiment deck (far from perfect):

4 [A] Taiga
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

This has 9 cards which are subject to Wasteland. Hmm...I don't think fear of Wasteland was the reason you went solely green instead of considering a splash. You'll also notice that Moon effects "handle" opposing wastelands fairly well. Moon effects are often very powerful against the majority of decks which play Stifle/wasteland.

As for stifle, you'll notice in your post right here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=366417&postcount=48) that you've also considered using Wooded Foothills. Clearly, you aren't too concerned about Stifle either. You also play Wastelands (which can be stifled) and I didn't in my thought-experiment.

I've tested against a few people playing with this deck, and plenty of them ran the Wooded Foothills as I did, even in purely Mono green builds, to find Arbor for NO. My idea to play fetchlands isn't 'digressing' as much as you've implied.

I'd argue that Stifle/Wasteland wasn't really a serious concern taken into account in your 'original ideas', and that the Stifle/Wasteland isn't really much more dangerous against a well-built Green Chalice Deck w/red splash than for the purely mono-green build you've offered us.

I think (1) is a terrible reason, and it wasn't seriously something you considered when going Mono Green, as evidenced in your primer's decklist.


(2): Splashing decreases overall color consistency

Your deck:

[4x] Llanowar Elves
[4x] Elvish Spirit Guide
[9x] Forest
[2x] Pendelhaven
[1x] Dryad Arbor

16 Initial :g: sources and 20 in Total

My thought experiment example:

6 [ARE] Forest
4 [A] Taiga
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [b] Llanowar Elves

19 Initial :g: sources and 23 in Total

I've substituted Wastelands (because they aren't necessary with Moon effects) for color producing lands, and I've overall improved the decks odds of drawing a mana source in general. While your example has 28 total mana sources, mine had 31.

As far as I can see, my version had a stronger mana-base than yours. Even if you disagree, you can see that it at least seems possible that this deck could splash for red without completely disrupting the consistency of the manabase.

You might argue that Moon effects themselves destroy our own manabase. This is rarely the case in practice. Moon effects might prevent Dragon stompy from "splashing" easily, mainly because you will have difficulty having the secondary color source up during Moon. However, if you are splashing for Moon from a non-red primary color, you'll usually have a generous supply of your primary color (basic forest+creature-based mana), and an improved chance to have red. It seems quite possible to splash Moon and retain color consistency in this deck.

Finally, for (2), I'm not saying pure Mono green couldn't possibly have a more stable manabase than those which would splash, but I don't think it would be that much more stable (as your example shows). On the other hand, the cost of splashing for a second color in Legacy is very minimal, and the benefits could certainly be very large (Moon is a pretty sick effect).


(3): Using red creatures, instead of green ones, decreases the saccable fodder for Natural order

Yes, you are absolutely right.

Your list ran 25 Green Creatures (counting Garruk, but not Progenitus) and 4 Natural Orders, whereas my list ran 15 Green Creatures and 3 Natural orders, 19 possible green creatures if you include fetching for Dryad Arbor. The ratio is in your favor, but I haver to admit, I absolutely hated having 2 Natural Orders while playing your version of the deck. Additionally, with a 17% chance to have Progenitus stuck in your hand on Turn 3 (on the play), Natural Order can be much less relevant.

I also think the Red creatures I chose weren't that bad. SSG gave you some broken turn 1s, and Magus of the Moon is obvious. Gathan raiders might need further explanation. When you have Progenitus stuck in hand, Gathan gives you a way to get the card back into your library. When you have multiples of cards like Trinisphere/Chalice (which you generally can't use), Gathan's morph cost can actually be a strength in further enabling Tarmogoyf and putting cards that might otherwise be dead to good use.

We really need to ask whether or not a 'decrease in NO targets is worth what 'red creatures bring to the table'. If you've actually tried a red splash (your post doesn't indicate you have), you might be pleasantly surprised by the explosive starts, the raw power of Moon effects, and the increased versatility of your sideboard.


Again, I'm not saying the deck should splash for red. I'm saying it is worth consideration, and that perhaps you've not given enough thought about it. My question is attempting to be a constructive one that helps the deck progress, and I trust you can see that now. I hope you aren't blindly stuck on "purely mono green" because it is your 'pet' deck, but rather are honestly interested in progress, even if it could end up being a different deck than you originally intended.





peace,
4eak

[frodo21]

I tested two snakeform in the slot of Isao (in maybe 80 games...) which are in my view for away better than Briarhorn in a build that doesn't run spawnwrithe (which is bad in this version of the deck).
I arrived to the conclusion that this card is good, but not against every MUs. That's why it is in the sideboard. This is for example very conditionnal : the opponent has to attack (I mean, if you want snakeform to be very efficient, he has to attack/block), you must have a blocker/attacker, your spell mustn't be countered, etc...

So I moved them sideboard and tried Isao. Isao is very good for blocking, especially versus merfolk/thresh. I tested so much vs blue decks that my conception of the deck may have been affected, and that why I find an uncounterable creature so nice. But it's others capacities are in fact much more important...

[Goblin Snowman]

4eak - Out of curiosity, while running with the Red splash, did you ever test Sarkhan Vol in the place of a NO or Garruk? He seems solid enough to at least test in the place of one of the other powerful 4 drops.

[Michael Keller]

@4eak:

I was trying to explain simply that Moon effects and the sort have no place in this specific archetype because we are trying to move this into a mono-colored direction. That is what did so well at this previously large tournament, so we are going to further examine why.

As far as the mana-base is considered: I made it abundantly clear in earlier posts that the mana-base was unstable and needed to be reworked. I indicated that some of the main issues the decks was primarily facing was, in fact, cards such as: Wasteland and Moon effects. It's hard to believe that actually can be a factor aaginst a single-colored deck, but it was. That issue has been relatively resolved as I've been reworking my mana-base intensively these last few weeks.

Your splashes for cards like Simian Spirit Guide to supplement the inherently "broken" turn one plays are a neat idea, to be certain. Unfortunately, in doing so, you are focusing more and more on the turn one play and less as much on the turn two play. One of the main examples to help supplement my point is that I moved Trinisphere to the board. There are ample ways in the current build to get the dreaded "Chalice for One" out turn one. I don't want to focus more on the "free mana" aspect of Chalice Aggro as much as I want the permanent acceleration. This I believe to be sufficient with the inclusion of Elves, Tomb, and Elvish Spirit Guide.

What I am gunning for (as I was before), is a single-colored Aggro Control deck that doesn't need to deplete its hand or over-extend its resources to ensure a potential first-turn broken play. I want to force my opponent into countering chronological threats instead of a single threat that can eat it early to removal or a counter spell.

I also don't necessarily consider Wasteland as pain toward Magus or Blood Moon. In theory, an opponent will drop one of those cards with a "two-mana" producing land (Tomb or City). These can be wasted in response; devastating an opponent early in the game. This theory has been tried and tested and obviosuly is effective. Chalice set at one can ensure a complete shut-down of Stifle and removal, so that your opponent stays pinned.

Natural Order is a significant card in this deck. Without it, the deck loses a very critical component in how it wins. I want to maintain a constant green creature count (or a small increase) to supplment and exploit its potency in the early stages of the game. By even removing a few green creatures, the chances do diminish in getting Progenitus into play sooner rather than later. This also works against free-mana accelerating creatures; when they are pitched, you are removing one more card in your hand to help actually get a creature into play and then subsequently N.O.

If there's anything I've learned from playing Dark Belcher and Imperial Painter over the years, it is that acceleration only has its advantages when you have something to back up what it is you're playing. This deck can actually generate card advantage in bizarre ways, which helps it win closer games.

I am not dismissing your ideas, I like them actually. But we are all trying to maintain an effective mono-green list that can win and win regularly. In doing so, we are creating an effective (and moderately) original concept in the current Legacy metagame that can compete with any deck in the format, as it has already proven.

[Mystical_Jackass]

[B][SIZE="3"]
I also think the Red creatures I chose weren't that bad. SSG gave you some broken turn 1s, and Magus of the Moon is obvious. Gathan raiders might need further explanation. When you have Progenitus stuck in hand, Gathan gives you a way to get the card back into your library. When you have multiples of cards like Trinisphere/Chalice (which you generally can't use), Gathan's morph cost can actually be a strength in further enabling Tarmogoyf and putting cards that might otherwise be dead to good use.
peace,
4eak

I think that's a very interesting idea, since... well, taking it back to Elephant Stompy the biggest problem seemed to be finding that 3cc signature green creature lol. Maybe that creature shouldn't be green at all? :laugh:


I just have 2 questions.

(1) As far as Magus. How would you side that out, according to your sideboard if your opponent is playing monos... which, at least in my meta seems like 3/4 of the decks I play?

(2) In terms of the synergy of Garruk + Ancient Tomb, would you see turn 1-2 Moon slow down some of the Xplosive acceleration turn 3+ ?


I want to force my opponent into countering chronological threats instead of a single threat that can eat it early to removal or a counter spell.

Good answer. However same could be said about any 3cc drop I guess.. I dunno.

Btw, I like the idea of keeping Green with tha' Green too. Something about spalsh is like Bleh to me but interesting nonetheless :P

[yankeedave]

@4eak

I think your R/G list is strong enough for a post in the N&D forums, why not post it there and let it run?

Dave

[frodo21]

What I am gunning for (as I was before), is a single-colored Aggro Control deck that doesn't need to deplete its hand or over-extend its resources to ensure a potential first-turn broken play. I want to force my opponent into countering chronological threats instead of a single threat that can eat it early to removal or a counter spell.

I totally agree with this. This is the way the deck works. That's why it is not elephant stompy (and not a stompy at all).
I even considered to play smokestack in my list. And crucible (and few mishras). I didn't but that shows well that the deck is closer to a stax-shell than a stompy.

@hollywood : any comments about my list ??

[Mystical_Jackass]

@HOllywood
Okay, either this idea is on crack, or its horribly awesome.

What if you used like 2 Kodama of the South Tree in place of Cold-Eyed Selkie, since you're running sorta a weenie brigade with boa, elves, goyf, etc.

So basically, mid-game Elvish Spirit Guide = +1/+1 Trampleness? NOBODY would see that coming ROFL. The tree itself counts as a spirit too

[frodo21]

@HOllywood
Okay, either this idea is on crack, or its horribly awesome.

What if you used like 2 Kodama of the South Tree in place of Cold-Eyed Selkie, since you're running sorta a weenie brigade with boa, elves, goyf, etc.

So basically, mid-game Elvish Spirit Guide = +1/+1 Trampleness? NOBODY would see that coming ROFL. The tree itself counts as a spirit too

The curve at 4cc is already full of game breakers, and I don't think that adding anoher 4cc spell in the deck is a good option.
What's more, it is so much weaker than these other 4cc that I wouldn't replace any of them by Kodama.

The deck would probably better need a 2G card...

[Mystical_Jackass]

The deck would probably better need a 2G card...

What about Lone Wolf.

Equip it with SoFI/SoLS, it would offer great card advantage as well as damage.

[Michael Keller]

@hollywood : any comments about my list ??

I mean, it looks good on paper. If you're getting good results with it, then run with it. If Bushi is working good for you, I'd suggest keeping him in.

Adding a splash is really not a bad thing. It just adds a whole new dimension to the deck and that is just a completely seperate idea. I would love to read the congruency between the decks and see where it ends up.

I'll have my own updated list posted for everyone later tonight. It's essentially an application of earlier posts that I worked with and ended up liking it a lot. Remember: No one is really going to play the exact same list all the time. There are subtle intricacies that distinctly seperate each person's list and suit each person's wants and needs.

About the 2G card: I am seriously looking into Spawnwrithe. By shutting down Swords early, he will just take over the game himself. More times than not, he will draw a counter. If not, most other creatures can stare him down later in the game. That is until he gets equipped with Sword or Jitte. Then, they'll have problems. So he's essentially just a good drop whenever you play him. And, he fits the curve.

I'm really liking everyone's ideas, though. Keep them coming.

[frodo21]

In fact spawnwrithe would be at his best in a stompy shell. I mean : 4 city of traitors + 4 ancient tomb, 4 mox of chrome, 4 ESG.

'Cause you said it, it is not so good (let's say bad) in the mid/late game. And even with an equipment it won't be able to beat the opponent's tarmogoyf...
It also implies to play briarhorn.

But then the deck relies more on its first turn and this is then a stompy.deck. I don't think that it is what the deck wants...

Concerning the splash, I would consider splashing blue. It may seem strange but I'll post a list later if I can test it.

[4eak]

@ Goblin Snowman

I didn't try Sarkhan. To be honest, I don't really like that card very much. It could be decent though. If you test it, let me know.

@ Hollywood

I liked your explanation a lot more. You made a lot of sense.


Your splashes for cards like Simian Spirit Guide to supplement the inherently "broken" turn one plays are a neat idea, to be certain. Unfortunately, in doing so, you are focusing more and more on the turn one play and less as much on the turn two play....What I am gunning for (as I was before), is a single-colored Aggro Control deck that doesn't need to deplete its hand or over-extend its resources to ensure a potential first-turn broken play.

Chalice/Tomb decks are innately 'bomby', with the trade-off being consistency. This 'bomb' model has been successful, so you can see why I at least considered it a possibility. Lowering the bomby nature of Chalice/Tomb decks has historically been unsuccessful, so perhaps you can see why I considered trying a different direction in Mono Green Chalice Aggro. For example, I think the deck would be successful in virtue of playing 3sphere in the main (particularly on turns 1 and 2), not in spite of it. I think a combination of mana-denial, Goyf, NOP, and fast mana are what make this deck awesome, not its ways to create CA. But, perhaps a more CA-based approach to this aggro deck would be better, but I don't think your current argument is good enough to show that MGA shouldn't consider splashing for Moon effects.


Natural Order is a significant card in this deck. Without it, the deck loses a very critical component in how it wins. I want to maintain a constant green creature count (or a small increase) to supplment and exploit its potency in the early stages of the game. By even removing a few green creatures, the chances do diminish in getting Progenitus into play sooner rather than later.

Obviously, NOProg is very bomby, and important in this deck; I don't deny that. But, that doesn't mean you absolutely must cram every green creature you can into the deck. I think you really need to answer 'what is the minimum number of green creatures I must run to consistently NO?' Perhaps we disagree on that line. I'm not against maximizing green creatures, but I do think we should consider the alternatives. Even splashing red purely for Magus of the Moon (and Blood moon in the side) could be very profitable.


we are all trying to maintain an effective mono-green list that can win and win regularly. In doing so, we are creating an effective (and moderately) original concept in the current Legacy metagame that can compete with any deck in the format, as it has already proven.

I understand your aims. I want more proof as to why pure MGA would be better than MGA/w a red splash for Moons. If this deck were more established, then I could see why you it would be less necessary to answer the question. From my perspective though, this is an archetype that has largely failed, but was successful in your single case; and, I think the archetype and its aims are wide-open, not explored, and still in the vetting process.


Out of curiousity, did you recently play against mono white control and then Goblins recently on MWS with Scryb-version of this deck?

@ Mystical_Jackass


(1) As far as Magus. How would you side that out, according to your sideboard if your opponent is playing monos... which, at least in my meta seems like 3/4 of the decks I play?

Good question. For Islands, obviously Choke. Using Blood Moon immediately assumes a metagame that is full of non-basics, so you shouldn't be siding these out often.


In terms of the synergy of Garruk + Ancient Tomb, would you see turn 1-2 Moon slow down some of the Xplosive acceleration turn 3+

It certainly has impact. If you are dropping Moon first, then that is a sign that you considered Garruk a weaker play. On the flip side, turning Ancient Tombs which hit for 2 life a turn into Mountains can be a blessing.




peace,
4eak

[frodo21]

4eak :

In the previous page you developed your ideas, especially for the mana base of the GR version. You said that your mana base is less vulnerable to mana denial. I disagree with this.

Take a look at my mana base. I run 4 ancient tomb, 1 pendelhaven and 4 wasteland as possible targets (for the opponent's waste). I am considering dropping the pendelhaven.

You run 4 ancient tomb, 1 dryad arbor and 4 taiga.

We have the same number of non basic lands (if I count the pendelhaven...).
BUT the opponent will rarely waste my wasteland, and if he does such a thing it is not a problem, because this is the purpose of wasteland in the deck (doing -1 land for the opponent...).
You'll suffer much more if your taiga is wasted than me if my wasteland is wasted...

Then you play fetches... which make you vulnerable to stifle...

But I think that your deck sould be more compared to Green stompy rather than this deck. We don't want these 8 guides for huge turn 1... we want turn one llanowar (and depending on the MU CotV at 1), and then consistency.
Your hand is empty on turn two with your version (I exagerate). Our is full of gamebreakers...

But your list seems strong. The fact is that I don't think that it is the appropriate topic to talk of it...

[Michael Keller]

As promised, here is the current list I run. I will discuss the changes below:

Mono Green Chalice Aggro

//Main
[4x] Llanowar Elves
[4x] Tarmogoyf
[4x] Natural Order
[4x] Chalice of the Void
[4x] Elvish Spirit Guide
[3x] Scryb Ranger
[3x] Spawnwrithe
[3x] Garruk Wildspeaker
[3x] Wickerbough Elder
[3x] Umezawa's Jitte
[2x] Loaming Shaman
[2x] Sword of Fire and Ice
[1x] Progenitus

[9x] Forest
[4x] Ancient Tomb
[4x] Wasteland
[2x] Wooded Foothills
[1x] Dryad Arbor

//Sideboard
[4x] Trinisphere
[3x] Choke
[3x] Krosan Grip
[3x] Tormod's Crypt
[2x] Crucible of Worlds

Essentially, what I've done is altered some main-deck choices to better suit the colorless mana foundation. You probably notice some major renovating going on here, so I'll explain:

Trinisphere to the Sideboard
This was the hardest decision of all. I mean, why else would I rotate one of the most prevalent cards to the sideboard? Well, after careful consideration, I came to the conclusion that Trinisphere was far more effective in the sideboard. There are a lot of instances in which it is dead; contrary to what I said before. Some people will continue playing it in the main, and I fully understand why. I simply chose to beef-up my deck with more effective equipment to supplement smaller creatures which become extraordinarily dangerous in the wake of combat.

The Addition of Scryb Ranger
When I was reconfiguring the mana-base, I needed to think long and hard about cards that could assist in fixing the double-green issue. With Scryb Ranger, I am able to do many different things, such as:

a.) Attack through and hold off any blue creatures.
b.) Create a surprise block with any creature on the table with his Flash and untap ability.
c.) Replay Forests to give me double-green.
d.) Avoid a Chalice set at one.
e.) Apply devastating tricks with mana to equip and subsequently attack.

I think he really is the perfect fit for what we are trying to accomplish here. A real "Swiss-Army" knife, if you will.

Spawnwrithe: Good or Not?
We'll soon find out. With a mana-foundation that can easily play this creature out turn one or two, he can multiply himself very quickly, essentially making him an indisputable target for removal or counter-magic. He is blockable, to be certain. But with cards like Jitte and Sword, he can get over the hump and make more of himself in a hurry. Otherwise, he is either good fodder to Natural Order. If he gets in there, that spells doom for any opponent at any stage of the game. His copies also make Engineered Explosives a tad harder to set up and activate.

Loaming Shaman
Pretty self-explanatory here. He is a good substitute for what Trinisphere did against decks like Ichorid; he shuts down the graveyard and can punish cards like Jotun Grunt. He is easily castable and serves a decent body capable of blocking and killing Goose, getting in with the attack with equipment, and a sacrificial lamb for the Progenitus.

**Take note that there is a recurring theme here; most of the cards substituted or removed for these newer cards dramatically improve the curve of the deck with mana costs such as 2G, as opposed to more GG-cost spells that proved to be catastrophic with the previous installment.

Wooded Foothills to the Rescue
In order to seek out the lone Dryad Arbor as a source of utility and being able to thin out the deck a bit more, Foothills can be useful in the most unlikely of circumstances. It might make sense to play three instead of two, but with just the right amount of acceleration, I felt it incumbent upon myself to use this card as a (virtually, sans Stifle) uncounterable tutor for a Natural Order target. In a very rare circumstance, he might even be fetched to stop a Lackey turn one, or even a fooled Dark Confidant on the attack several turns later.

Crucible of Worlds
I was thinking about cards that could help me against mana-bases that pack more non-basics and the effect this card could potentially have on them. I had already considered this even before the deck placed well. In the original concept design, the deck was slated to be more of a Stax variant than aggro. But one of the cards that was irrevocably powerful was Crucible of Worlds in that it creates its own lock with Wasteland. I wanted to bring out the flavor of Wasteland in the deck, and I think against decks that are unprepared to handle this potentially devastating hard-lock, it could be a significant alternate route to victory. I have also questioned the utility of Ghost Quarter in this deck. Could it actually be better in some circumstances? Possibly.

I think these changes for reasons given have helped shaped the deck to play more efficiently.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Dryad Arbor is an interesting idea. Its very open to removal... as far as Lackey? Well, that's pretty sad I'd hate to have to give up a land drop to stop a creature.. goblins' gonna have 2 lands in play the next turn, drop a fanatic and vial and say go with a smile :)


Spawnwrithe, as we've discussed many times before, is most effective in A) Elephant Stompy with mox, city of traitors, 1st turn drop; B) Tangle Wire (ideally following Briarhorn drop); & C) Briarhorn support allowing it to trample over top.

I also think 5 equipment is a little too much IMO. Other than that, I love Loaming Shaman, he's hella gg

[Michael Keller]

Dryad Arbor is an interesting idea. Its very open to removal... as far as Lackey? Well, that's pretty sad I'd hate to have to give up a land drop to stop a creature.. goblins' gonna have 2 lands in play the next turn, drop a fanatic and vial and say go with a smile :)


Spawnwrithe, as we've discussed many times before, is most effective in A) Elephant Stompy with mox, city of traitors, 1st turn drop; B) Tangle Wire; & C) Briarhorn support allowing it to trample over top.

I also think 5 equipment is a little too much IMO. Other than that, I love Loaming Shaman, he's hella gg

Spawnwrithe gets larger with your equipment and can create a very unnerving scenario for an opponent. Remember, by not only pumping your Spawnwrithe with Sword and having him trample over, you will get those extra-added bonuses that could win you the game. The same is true for Jitte.

Most Goblin decks have nixed Mogg Fanatic because of the M10 changes. Not all, but some. You wouldn't fetch for the Arbor before his attack, obviously. And you certainly wouldn't get it if he has a Fanatic on board. I was referring to its utility when you don't have a creature to fight it off with. With the amount of acceleration you play, you should have no trouble with Lackey, especially with Chalice set at one on the play. You have to consider all logical scenarios.

Also, you can attack through Lackey with Spawnwrithe; that is a race you will almost certainly win in the long-haul. You generate an obscene amount of card advantage with the vast amount of copies and tokens you make from Spawnwrithe and Garruk, respectively. This, coupled with all the other creatures you have in the deck, help make your equipment optimal in almost every given scenario. I exploited their utility at the Dual Land Draft, and to be honest, they were the reason I won the majority of my games.

You have enough acceleration to get Spawnwrithe out in a hurry; there is no logical reason to assume he is only good in a Stax variant because he has never seen action in a serious deck like this before. I've been doing a limited amount of testing against Goblins and Dragon Stompy and I haven't been disappointed with its performance. I wouldn't play him if I didn't feel he was a good commodity.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Spawnwrithe gets larger with your equipment and can create a very unnerving scenario for an opponent. Remember, by not only pumping your Spawnwrithe with Sword and having him trample over, you will get those extra-added bonuses that could win you the game. The same is true for Jitte.


I understand how the creature works. I'm just not sure if he comes out quite fast enough to be most effective... I know some ppl might agree, but like I said Tangle Wire & Briarhorn provide much quicker support than equipment.. like SoFI works amazing with him I understand, but its somewhat slow if you're talking him coming out generally turn 2, and getting equipped turn 3-4.


You wouldn't fetch for the Arbor before his attack, obviously. And you certainly wouldn't get it if he has a Fanatic on board. I was referring to its utility when you don't have a creature to fight it off with. With the amount of acceleration you play, you should have no trouble with Lackey, especially with Chalice set at one on the play. You have to consider all logical scenarios.

I was assuming they were going first, otherwise you're right Chalice would shut them down no problem. Still. Yeah, as a last ditch effort I suppose it'd be better than the alternative lol :wink:


he has never seen action in a serious deck like this before
okay, I believe you. He has been tested in Elephant Stompy quite a bit before this thread existed.

[Fons]

Loaming Shaman is pretty great, definitly a good inclusion.
Spawnwrithe is a great card however moving trinisphere to the board might hurt his explosiveness a little.

as far as equipment goes I would just stick to the jitte.

[Michael Keller]

The addition of Sword and Fire and Ice (along with Jitte) helps ease some pressure on relying too heavily on Natural Order to win games. By playing any one of those equipment cards, you are able to power up any smaller 1/1 into something far more effective.

Sword also has a cost of three colorless, and because of how well it worked at Eli's, I am inclined to give it a chance in the main.

[Rath]

@Fons

I would disagree about just sticking to Jitte. This deck wants to punish blue and SoFI help alot with that, as well as adding card draw. They both do removal quite well, but SoFI adds built in +2/+2 which helps many of the creatures in the deck (as well as making them harder to block).

Running an even split of 2 Jitte / 2 SoFI might make more sense as otherwise you are pretty equipment heavy and have very little way to filter through them if you draw too many.

To replace the one equipment you took out, I was thinking of a way to handle Tombstalker (even thought the scryb sprites make a huge difference there). Arashi, the sky asunder was one thought as the channel is a good effect, or a hurricane type direct damage finisher?

[Michael Keller]

@Fons

I would disagree about just sticking to Jitte. This deck wants to punish blue and SoFI help alot with that, as well as adding card draw. They both do removal quite well, but SoFI adds built in +2/+2 which helps many of the creatures in the deck (as well as making them harder to block).

Running an even split of 2 Jitte / 2 SoFI might make more sense as otherwise you are pretty equipment heavy and have very little way to filter through them if you draw too many.

To replace the one equipment you took out, I was thinking of a way to handle Tombstalker (even thought the scryb sprites make a huge difference there). Arashi, the sky asunder was one thought as the channel is a good effect, or a hurricane type direct damage finisher?

Two and two might make more sense. If I were to remove the third Jitte, I would probably substitute it for something along the lines of a fourth Scryb Ranger. I only have three in the list right now and it might make sense to bring it up to an even four, given his uses.

I've also been mulling over another target for Natural Order.

[frodo21]

I've also been mulling over another target for Natural Order.


A Woodfall Primus in SB could be nice in this slot. A second Porgenitus too...

[Mystical_Jackass]

Symbiotic Worm...Verdant force..?

Another I had, maybe Empyrial Archangel. Would be a beast to deal with.. if they don't have a board sweeper their chances are looking grim lol :)

[Hopo]

You are getting closer and closer to Elephant Stompy after every change you make to the deck. Now the main difference is that you have Wasteland and 1cc elves colliding with your chalice. Without testing this deck I believe it could improve the consistency and lessen the mulligans, but at what cost? Elves are pretty unimpressive topdecks and you lack the ability of dropping constant first turn bombs by not playing Chrome Mox. Wasteland is also a tempo-loss and could cause problems gettin GG, but I also see you already tried to address this issue in your new build.

Elephant stompy has some questionable slots with Call of the Herd. I could try with mana elves/hierarchs in their slot and see how that affects the mulliganing.

And Woodfall Primus is a decent second NO target. Empyrial Archangel is not bad, but surprisingly often it will die before hitting for lethal. Even tempo thresh can get rid of it by just attacking with a goyf and bolting you. Then you have sacrificed a creature for nothing, or maybe for 5 damage. After playing with Hypergenesis combo I realized that Archangel is golden if you have another fatties besides her. Then she timewalks and other fatties go for the win. With NO you usually don't want something that your opponent can get rid of. Progenitus is easily the best bet, and it might be worth considering two copies if you want another target. Primus is good SB material against Moat.dec or similar lock pieces which prevent Progenitus doing its job.

Is this deck superior to elephant stompy and if, why? ES is terribly fast and disruptive, both of which I've seen as the reasons for it and dragon stompy to be so good. This often gives up the best disruption - 1st turn chalice - for mana elves.

[MTG-Fan]

Yeah, at this point, why play this over Elephant Stompy, anyway?

[frodo21]

Yeah, at this point, why play this over Elephant Stompy, anyway?

Because Elephant stompy is less competitive ??

I mean, I tested Elephant stompy ('cause I love Green), and this deck, if not capable to make huge turns 1 (still CotV at 1 is a huge first turn...) is capable to win in the mid/late game. Elephant stompy has very few chances to win if the game arrived at the mid/long game.
For the elves, many of the latest lists played it (or noble hierarch...).

MGCA tries to reduce the number of cards that make card disadvantage : moxen, ESG, ... but play cards like elves... (but the way, if Llanowar is a bad topdeck, what about topdeck mox in Elephant stompy...) which are clearly superior in a mid/long-game strategy.

Elephant stompy is destroyed by many cards (a bolt on your spawnwrithe turn one can let you in a situation where you only have to cards in hand... nice), the worst of them being pernicious deed.
MGCA for example doesn't have the same weakness to deed (especially in my version why regenerating creatures, garruk) especially because you don't vomit your hand with MGCA, just like others stompies would do.

This deck is far away from other stompy decks... and much closer to stax...

[Mystical_Jackass]

You are getting closer and closer to Elephant Stompy after every change you make to the deck. Now the main difference is that you have Wasteland and 1cc elves colliding with your chalice.

Chalice 1 can possibly step on elves, my biggest worry would be choosing to play Llanower first with an ancient tomb/chalice hand.. next turn they thoughtseize, bolt, Aether vial, etc. But the elves also correct more problems in terms of card advantage than they hurt too. Gotta take the good with the bad :)




And Woodfall Primus is a decent second NO target. Empyrial Archangel is not bad, but surprisingly often it will die before hitting for lethal. Even tempo thresh can get rid of it by just attacking with a goyf and bolting you. Then you have sacrificed a creature for nothing, or maybe for 5 damage. After playing with Hypergenesis combo I realized that Archangel is golden if you have another fatties besides her. Then she timewalks and other fatties go for the win. With NO you usually don't want something that your opponent can get rid of. Progenitus is easily the best bet, and it might be worth considering two copies if you want another target. Primus is good SB material against Moat.dec or similar lock pieces which prevent Progenitus doing its job.


Primus is always a great choice. But I think you're not giving Empyrial Archangel enough credit, if you're assuming you NO turn 3.. EVEN if someone does have goyf/LB (we're playing zoo I take it?).... you ALSO have goyf, mana elves, Garruk, etc. to block if you really need. Not like you're just gonna let 'em attack you, and how big is goyf by turn 3? Most likely not a 5/6+. Even so, consider the possibility you chalice @1?? Oh, now they can't bolt or play more apes. Even if they have a nactl & ape that's at most 5 damage, you can timewalk ftw and take 0 damage whereas Primus they always have the possibility of racing you. Moat? Angel has evasion so that solves that.

Problem with multiple copies of Progen is you don't want to draw it, its a dead card. You can't pitch it to mox either in this deck. If destroyed it gets shuffled back in, so I don't really get that.

[enemyofarsenic]

If it is Progenitus to chrome mox - Progenitus would be exiled not shuffled back

[Tivon]

this deck isn't playing mox though, so you don't need to worry about possibly having to exile your NO target.

Your certainly aren't going to want Progen in your hand, but I don't think increasing the odds of it showing up in your hand as a dead draw (bad) is worth throwing a second in the deck so that you have something to NO even if one of them does show up in your hand at some point.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Yea, I think you sorta misunderstood what I was getting at.

Like you said, you never want to draw into it or have one open hand.. all I was stating is that, if you had chrome mox and ran 2x Progenitus, you might be able to keep a hand with one to pitch to mox instead of insta-Mull. But in this deck, having more than 1 is prolly not a good idea. If you ran elvish piper that wouldn't be bad.. but yea. Whole different animal?

[chris_acheson]

Woodfall Primus is a good alternate Natural Order target. I'll often go for him over Progenitus, depending on the situation. He slows down your opponent by blowing up their land, deals with problematic artifacts/enchantments while still giving you a 6/6 trampler, survives wrath and edict effects, and is great to sacrifice to a second NO.

[TOGITwill]

I move for a change of deck name. Having some long winded name like Mono Green Chalice Aggro doesn't give the deck the pizzaz and awesome impact that it deserves. With Hollywood's "Swift kick in the Progenitals" reference, I offer to you these names:

- Rochambeau (in reference to the South Park episode)
- Cup-Check (If you are a male and played organized sports, you know what this is)

[Mystical_Jackass]

Heck no, Lamezor >.<
I got it, since its an elephant stompy deck with elves and all..

Elfephant Stompy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hahaha, ownt

[Michael Keller]

Heck no, Lamezor >.<
I got it, since its an elephant stompy deck with elves and all..

Elfephant Stompy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hahaha, ownt

How about NO to either:

I'm content with Mono Green Chalice Aggro. I've already discussed this with the moderators and they feel this is where the deck stands.

Also, stop calling this deck "Elephant Stompy", because it ISN'T. Some of you are taking at face-value the inclusion of several card choices that you think automatically qualifies this as being the SAME THING when what you should be doing is investigating more on the theory behind why and how you play this deck and what the fundamental turns include.

In other words: What some of you have done is completely resigned just about any and all mono-green decks - with creatures - as "Elephant Stompy". Well, it isn't. So stop calling it that.

If it was considered "Elephant Stompy", then there would be a discretionary change. This deck focuses more on the control aspect and manipulative functions of each card in play rather than a slew of instants that pump a bunch of one-cost or two-cost dudes that completely wipes out your hand within two turns. Most versions of E.S. don't even run Chalice of the Void, and probably...for good reason. This deck uses and abuses Chalice to win games more than the latter. Hence: Mono...Green...CHALICE...Aggro.

[MTG-Fan]

It runs green creatures, and it runs the Ancient Tomb/City manabase, and it runs hate on low casting cost curves. Thus, it is an Elephant Stompy variant.

[frodo21]

Also, stop calling this deck "Elephant Stompy", because it ISN'T. Some of you are taking at face-value the inclusion of several card choices that you think automatically qualifies this as being the SAME THING when what you should be doing is investigating more on the theory behind why and how you play this deck and what the fundamental turns include.

+ 10,000. Stop thinking that it is a stompy.deck. This is not.

(and that's why I think Spawnwrithe isn't good in the deck...).

[beastman]

It runs green creatures, and it runs the Ancient Tomb/City manabase, and it runs hate on low casting cost curves. Thus, it is an Elephant Stompy variant.



I agreed to stay out of your thread, I hope you do the same for me.

I'm calling you out. You are, at this point, simply trolling. You add nothing of relevance, and you are getting really annoying.

[Michael Keller]

1. It runs green creatures, and 2. it runs the Ancient Tomb/City manabase, and it 3. runs hate on low casting cost curves. Thus, it is an Elephant Stompy variant.

1. So does Thresh. Does that make them Elephant Stompy?

2. I don't run City, which essentially disqualifies your point. I run four Ancient Tombs exclusively to supplement the two colorless mana in my spells; nothing more.

3. So do Counter-Top decks. Does that make them Elephant Stompy?

I mean, am I missing something here, or is this deck REALLY Counter-Top-Thresh-Elephant-Stompy-Mono-Green-Chalice-Aggro now, according to your completely un-thought-out points?

[frodo21]

Ok, we don't care if Mr X calls the deck elephant stompy, do we ?

We should discuss of the cards instead...

I totally dropped the pendelhaven and play forest instead. Now, my mana base is very very resilient to every kind of waste/stifle/moon/etc...

Hollywood : are you still playing spawnwrithe ?? 'cause I don't think he fits the deck well. I'd like to have your opinion on this card, which is typically -in my opinion- a stompy card...

[Mystical_Jackass]

Okay, the name and all.. I was just joking lol (don't call it "Elfephant Stompy Lmao!); I think you're being kinda a serious sally bro. If ppl brought up Elephant Stompy, usually it was just as a comparison... I mean, it is sorta the closest comparison for this deck dont get so offended man. I deffinitely see the difference though, and yea MOST elephant stompies ran chalice.

I think everyone needs to chill out a bit, most of the stuff is just ideas, not all are gonna be amazing just offer a few reasons why or why not for something and dont take things so personal all @.@

[Michael Keller]

I'm still debating whether or not to keep Spawnwrithe. He works really well, but for different reasons in this deck.

Also, I am really liking Sword more and more in this deck. It seems whenever I tried to equip a creature in testing against Zoo and Landstill, that creature always ate it first to Bolt or Swords, which is fine. The goal is to milk each creature for all they're worth, and equipment like Sword and Jitte bring the best out of each in the deck.

I haven't played Pendelhaven in my deck since placing. I have completely eradicated it from further lists. The new base helps the deck run much smoother and it generates better card advantage with the addition of Spawnwrithe and Sword, not to mention cards like Ranger and another Elder for support.

@Mystical: Don't sweat it, man. I know you were kidding. It's all good. It's still just a game.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Oh, I remember what I was gonna ask/

Have you tried running Sylvan Library; I know there were a few players who tested it in the other deck (whose name shall not be mentioned Lol ;P) and said it worked very well. What do you think?

One player used Words of Wilding too, which... well, everyone knows that combo its older than time itself, but again.. yeah, the libraries can stack and makes Lotsa BEARS, everyone loves bears :) I know you've been discussing possible "alternative win cons", could be an idea.

[scrumdogg]

It runs green creatures, and it runs the Ancient Tomb/City manabase, and it runs hate on low casting cost curves. Thus, it is an Elephant Stompy variant.

We've found Cavius' new account! Now that the drooling fuckwit has been outed, can we stop feeding the capacious ego & limited intellect and just slap it/him on ignore? I haven't had the chance to test the Shushers yet but that is on my list of things to do (although that is more with the original list). Question Mike (and others) is the card draw & +2 damage from SOFI (and protection from colors) better than the lifegain & recursion (and specific color protections) of SOLAS? What decks/colors/removal/spells/critters have proven problematic to date in your experience? If the deck is designed to be anti-blue, doesn't that aspect of SOFI improve an existing strongpoint of the deck? I'm interested in the thinking & experience leading to this particular choice.

[f|i[p]]

I have tried this deck out, and its very promising. I have also put in spawnwrithes and don't like it. It seems situational and usually ends up waiting for it to be equipped. If you don't draw equipment they end up standing around doing nothing. Its good early game, if there are no blockers, but with players playing more zoo and merfolk decks,players usually get blockers early on.

So I really do think spawnwrithes should be replaced by a card thats less situational.

[Rath]

As it stands right now, if you take out the spawnwrithe's you are taking out the more "aggro" aspect of the deck, then you really do not want the 3rd jitte as you have less targets to carry it... it might make sense to put back in 4 x trinisphere (replacing 3 x spawnwrithe, 1 x jitte). If you are going more control you could also try ice storm, not sure if it was mentioned before, but it could work to follow up an early chalice to limit the opponent's options.

My only concern would be that leaves you a bit light on the creature/aggro side... any thoughts on creature replacement?

[Tacosnape]

FWIW, I just call this deck, in every form, GCA. Which is shortened from Green Chalice Aggro. Which is shortened from the thread title because Mono is kind of redundant. And GCA is a lot shorter to type and sounds kind of badass.

Also, on the multiple Progenitus thing? It's not a big deal to run two if you run something akin to Wild Mongrel. Just saying.

Also, Spawnwrithe still sucks. The swirling myths that Spawnwrithe is Phage (You win if it hits) is a ball of lies. That is all.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

If removing creatures makes everyone feel bad about calling it Green Chalice Aggro, why don't you just take out spawnwrithe and some equipment, re-install the 3spheres and call it Green Chalice Control? That's kiiind of what it was in the first place.

The deck really changed faces after everyone threw in suggestions so now it's not even the same deck. Part of using suggestions well is to know when to ignore them. It's not even the same deck that took 3rd at Vestal just with an improved manabase. It sounds silly to have an aversion to removing creatures just because the deck lives up to its name less?

[Michael Keller]

FWIW, I just call this deck, in every form, GCA. Which is shortened from Green Chalice Aggro. Which is shortened from the thread title because Mono is kind of redundant. And GCA is a lot shorter to type and sounds kind of badass.

Also, on the multiple Progenitus thing? It's not a big deal to run two if you run something akin to Wild Mongrel. Just saying.

Also, Spawnwrithe still sucks. The swirling myths that Spawnwrithe is Phage (You win if it hits) is a ball of lies. That is all.

There are no acceptable green creatures (besides Wild Mongrel, which sucks) to allow this deck to play more than one Progenitus. One is all you need. Aside from mass removal, which normally you don't run into anyways (sans the occasional Wrath), it should never be an issue. Having four Natural Order is the key. I am not putting Elvish Piper in the deck.

MGCA or GCA; tomato, tomahto; doesn't matter. All that matters is if the deck wins.

Spawnwrithe is devastating under the circumstances. He's probably a more solid turn two play than Tarmogoyf. You Tomb-Chalice for one on turn one, then drop Forest-Spawnwrithe. To me, that doesn't suck. That's called card advantage in an overpowering manner.

Now, don't get me wrong: There will be times when you won't have Spawnwrithe in play as a result of those successive turn plays listed above. But that is where your equipment helps. You're able to pump the hell out of one and make it much, much more relevant at any point in the game. It also gives you more sacrifice outlets to Natural Order. And paired with Garruk, it gives you the opportunity to use his Overrun ability without having to remove counters and make creatures, when you're making creatures otherwise because of Spawnwrithe. He's actually quite effective.

[Tacosnape]

Spawnwrithe is devastating under the circumstances. He's probably a more solid turn two play than Tarmogoyf. You Tomb-Chalice for one on turn one, then drop Forest-Spawnwrithe. To me, that doesn't suck. That's called card advantage in an overpowering manner.


That's not card advantage. It's only card advantage if he hits in this scenario and your opponent can't handily recover from it, which I strongly question.

Every DTB deck I can think of has multiple outs to that.

UWx Landstill can counter your Chalice or Spawnwrithe, or sweep the board with Wrath, or just drop a Humility. 4C Landstill can counter your Chalice or Spawnwrithe, and has Diabolic Edict, Pernicious Deed, and EE, which won't kill the initial Writhe, but will kill all the copies and the Chalice. Tempo Thresh can counter the Chalice and has access to Pyroclasm and Submerge postboard. Goblins has Warren Weirding and Mogg War Marshal. Zoo has Helix, Qasali Pridemage, and Tarmogoyf. Merfolk has Force of Will, Daze, Lord of Atlantis, and sometimes Submerge in board.

I mean, I see the allure of this guy in Elephant Stompy, where he can come down turn one a lot more often and has Briarhorn backing him up, but here? I just don't see where your scenario you described is all that powerful. And this is Spawnwrithe at his best.

[tsabo_tavoc]

UWx Landstill can counter your Chalice or Spawnwrithe, or sweep the board with Wrath, or just drop a Humility. 4C Landstill can counter your Chalice or Spawnwrithe, and has Diabolic Edict, Pernicious Deed, and EE, which won't kill the initial Writhe, but will kill all the copies and the Chalice. Tempo Thresh can counter the Chalice and has access to Pyroclasm and Submerge postboard. Goblins has Warren Weirding and Mogg War Marshal. Zoo has Helix, Qasali Pridemage, and Tarmogoyf. Merfolk has Force of Will, Daze, Lord of Atlantis, and sometimes Submerge in board.

Save for the bold words, the arguments can apply to Dark Confidant, one of the most formidable CA engine in the format. I fully agree with you that without Mox, City and Briarhorn, Spawnwrithe just seems weak. Even playing with those cards, Spawnwrithe is stopped by many decks while devastating others.

Also, is there authoritative ruling on the EE removal of Spawnwrithe: 0 or 3 counters to get rid of the copies?

[heroicraptor]

Spawnwrithe makes copies of itself. Mana cost is a copiable value.

[Mystical_Jackass]

It's easy to get excited about Spawnwrithe's ability. But in most cases its just a 2/2 creature. So by turn 2-3 you think an opponent won't have at least one or two 2/2, 2/1, 2/3, or 3/3 creatures of their own? That's the question I guess. Berserk is a great spell to have (if it weren't for Chalice :[) as one of the few green removals that can also be used to get over creatures too :)

With SoFI it becomes a 4/4 trampler that can actually make an impact, I understand. But if the situation you described is right.. it'd be something like;
Turn1: Tomb, Chalice
Turn2: Land, Spawnwrithe
Turn3: Land, play SoFI (1 land short, can't play mana elf)
Turn4: <varies> but you could play goyf then equip, or Garruk, untap and equip, etc.

Do you really think turn 4 is fast enough? I also see chalice vs Llanower elf being kinda a double edged sword... if you play llanower turn1 you're giving your opponent free brainstorm, vial, kird ape, thoughtseize, etc. BUT if you Chalice every 1cc you draw is like dead in your hand :\

I think the main reason this deck is good IMO, is mainly just because NO --> Progenitus is friggin insane. More the deck deviates outside of that the worse it'll prolly get like someone was saying above, deffinitely different than Stompy.

I know I had asked this before, just didn't get a response so still curious. What about using Sylvan Library to greatly improve your draw and card advantage?

[Tacosnape]

Spawnwrithe makes copies of itself. Mana cost is a copiable value.

This is why I should be fully awake before posting.:) Danke.

I still say the thing sucks though.

[tsabo_tavoc]

I know I had asked this before, just didn't get a response so still curious. What about using Sylvan Library to greatly improve your draw and card advantage?

I tried Sylvan Library in Elephant Stompy and did not like it. It rarely brings CA as paying 4 life in a Tomb deck hurts. The card quality depends on the shuffling effects and Tomb decks run few fetchlands; and if one has cast Natural Order, the game is pretty much sealed. Library+Words of Wilding is a 2 cards combo and the deck lacks the Stax elements to protect it in a long game.


I think the main reason this deck is good IMO, is mainly just because NO --> Progenitus is friggin insane. More the deck deviates outside of that the worse it'll prolly get like someone was saying above, deffinitely different than Stompy.

Natural Order is the No.1 bomb of this deck, not the only. How would you concentrate on the theme: Mystical Tutor? As green does not offer decent tutor effects, running redundant bombs help the resiliency and versatility. Natural Order makes the opponent alert of each green creature which is just awesome.


I also see chalice vs Llanower elf being kinda a double edged sword... if you play llanower turn1 you're giving your opponent free brainstorm, vial, kird ape, thoughtseize, etc. BUT if you Chalice every 1cc you draw is like dead in your hand :\

It's true. However, you should be aware that Turn1 Chalice does not always happen. In fact, it is 16% chance to have Chalice and Tomb in your opening. Do you really want Forest pass in 80% of the games? Elves help by adding up 40% possibility of a turn 1 play. Having Chalice/Tomb/Elves in the opening is 6.4%. Taking a 33.6% bonus as the stake of a 6.4% risk seems fair for me. Elves could clog your hand later, but Turn1 play is too determinant of the game tempo to miss up.

[Tacosnape]

Tsabo's right about Sylvan Library. While life is a fantastic resource, there's only so many places to spend it, and we pick mana acceleration. This is a deck with Tomb and very little threat removal, and every life point can count in a race.

[f|i[p]]

I still say the thing sucks though.

I 2nd the motion. As I said spawnwrithe is too situational. And most of the time it will connect, is just because your opponent didn't do anything at all. No creature, no counter, no creature control.This rarely happens early game. Spawnwrithe however gets pretty insane, if it does connect. I just hate that he lacks evasion and waits for equipment. By that time that spawnwrithe would be equipped, players would have goyfs, folks and creatures that can block spawnwrithe. Without equipment, spawnwrithe is just too easy to bloc and is a mere 2/2.

[Michael Keller]

Tsabo's right about Sylvan Library. While life is a fantastic resource, there's only so many places to spend it, and we pick mana acceleration. This is a deck with Tomb and very little threat removal, and every life point can count in a race.

I tried the deck with no Spawnwrithe, and I concede to your previous point. What to use in its place...

[Tacosnape]

What to use in its place is a much harder question. There's a shortage of ungodly creatures that cost :2::g: in the world.

Manaplasm is a guy I sort of like, as for :2::g: he generally will attack as somewhere between a 3/3 and a 5/5, and he's really neat with Garruk. In the second game I tested it I managed to go turn two Manaplasm, turn three Garruk/Untap lands/Loaming Shaman/swing for 8, next turn Overrun, a second Garruk, untap lands, hardcast Elvish Spirit Guide, swing for 17. That said, I acknowledge Manaplasm to be situational and less good in this style of a build versus an Elephant Stompy-ish one.

I will say this, though. I'm liking having four Garruks in both builds of this deck. This allows me to drain a Garruk for three beast tokens, or an untap overrun, and drop a second one. Having multiple in my hand hasn't been near the problem I thought it might be.

[Michael Keller]

I will say this, though. I'm liking having four Garruks in both builds of this deck. This allows me to drain a Garruk for three beast tokens, or an untap overrun, and drop a second one. Having multiple in my hand hasn't been near the problem I thought it might be.

Garruk is obviously great; I've had no problems with him. Four, however, I think is a little much. There will be instances where you just can't play the one in your hand and you shouldn't have to wait two or three more turns to have to get another out. That makes it much less effective. Three is a nice round number that allows you to better your chances of drawing one and not increasing the chances of having two in the opening hand.

[B is for Big Job]

Feral hydra could be a possiblity for a creature, you can play it turn 3 and its at least a 2/2 like Spawnwrithe (or a possible 3/3 if elf came down first) and has the possibility to grow each turn after that making it bigger than goyf at times. Then pair it up with Garruk and can make him fuccillo hugaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah !!!!

[Tacosnape]

Except that unless it's 10/10 and has protection from everything, "Hydra" is wizards-speak for "Unplayable."

No way to that guy.


Garruk is obviously great; I've had no problems with him. Four, however, I think is a little much. There will be instances where you just can't play the one in your hand and you shouldn't have to wait two or three more turns to have to get another out. That makes it much less effective. Three is a nice round number that allows you to better your chances of drawing one and not increasing the chances of having two in the opening hand.

I'm okay with having one in my hand I can't play. That means I already have one on the board, which means I'm generally happy with my board situation. It also means I don't have to worry too much about keeping the current Garruk alive.

[Kuma]

I agree with Tacosnape. I'd rather have two Garruks than zero, because he's just that good. I've found that often the best play with Garruk is to make three beasts and let him die, so having a second isn't very redundant.

As for Spawnwrithe --- whatever. I'll just keep winning games with it.

[Mystical_Jackass]

The new M10 card: Great Sable Stag looks promising. Never tried
Its kinda $, but the "can't be countered" & "Pro B/U" is kinda cool, maybe better as a sideboard. Against decks like countertop & merfolk I could see it being awesome, jitte that sucker up :)

I use 3 Garruk in my deck. He generally comes out with a 3/3 beast to buy you time, but there's times when he pretty much comes out for 2cc and you get to drop equipment, goyf, chalice, etc. with his ability. Also, he hits his max ability faster than like any other Walker, you can literally hit overrun after a turn if he drops somewhat late, its pretty crazy >.>

[beastman]

Stag doesn't really do anything in this deck. We want really good, efficient beaters and stag is really only a 3/3 with a cost that includes 2 green.

[Funky-kun]

Speaking of other creatures for the deck, anyone tried Troll Ascetic?

[MTG-Fan]

How about Force of Nature?

It has a big 8/8 body, Trample, and it's in this deck's colors...

[f|i[p]]

The deck was actually looking for a cheap beater along the 3cc area so force of nature is bleh.. and its 2GGGG very hard to cast..

I was actually thinking along the lines of ascetic myself, as he is very very hard to kill, can block the whole time and regenerate. Can also be equipped.

Im also quite sure this deck doesn't have much problems producing 1GG as people are tending to think. It has scryb ranger to fix double green, esg, and elves.. double 1GG isn't that hard to achieve.

ascetic may be not as explosive as spawnwrithe early on, but they are definitely less situational and have their advantages. Im not quite sure how many more interesting creatures go along the 2G area or 1GG area.

[Mystical_Jackass]

yea. Unfortunately for green, the 1-3cc is sorta the building up curve, and the 5cc+ is the beatdown curve. Doesn't work into Stompie deck's favor, more 4 old fashioned elf/piper defense ofthe heart. You gotta dig higher to find more broken, which is why spike weaver comes to mind

Man, I searched the gatherer to ends meet at the fact of the matter is that Green doesn't wanna beat down at 3cc, spawnwrithe sucks in comparison with sea drake & magus/mauler, there's no way around it I'd give up on the finding that perfect 2G creature idea >.< We get Goyf, good enough. truce lol

Maybe WoTC will drop a 2G 4/3 Trample, first striker in some future set and we can all celebrate @ Tacosnapes house and cling glasses of whine *drifts off in thought* Sry, one day :)

[scrumdogg]

If you really feel the deck needs a beating cheap green creature, perhaps given the presence of mana accel, cheap green spells & Garruk the deck for Talara's Battalion has finally arrived? I still feel the uncounterability (and ability to do the same for all your other spells...) of Shusher would be better but I've wanted to use TB in a deck since it was printed.

[K_Rot_T]

Well for 2G, Awakener Druid might be a try. I see him as a very good alternative to Manaplasm, because he is also 1/1 most of the Time, but he doesnt need extra Cards for pumping him (except a Forest):

Ups:
- Forest might Attack in the same turn
- you can sac forest to Natural Order, whil still keeping a 1/1 Blocker
- works well with Garruks Ulti
- Pendelhaeven gives you a 2/3 and a 4/5
- 4/5 might even mess with a goyf

Cons:
- vulnerable to Stiffle
- Opponent might kill the Druid in response to attack with forest, whcih leaves us with a Land less
- mass removel kills the guy AND a land

[Tacosnape]

;369423']Im also quite sure this deck doesn't have much problems producing 1GG as people are tending to think. It has scryb ranger to fix double green, esg, and elves.. double 1GG isn't that hard to achieve.


It's not -hard- to get 1GG. It's just harder to get it on turn one or two. It takes away Tomb/Esg/3-drop. It takes away the turn one Tomb/Chalice, turn two threat, and so forth and so on.

And for 1GG, I want something better than Troll Ascetic. I mean, maybe in some weird build with Boa/Troll/Nevinyrral's Disk, but probably not, no.


Maybe WoTC will drop a 2G 4/3 Trample, first striker in some future set and we can all celebrate @ Tacosnapes house and cling glasses of whine *drifts off in thought* Sry, one day :)

God, I will so be hosting that party.

[f|i[p]]

Well for 2G, Awakener Druid might be a try. I see him as a very good alternative to Manaplasm, because he is also 1/1 most of the Time, but he doesnt need extra Cards for pumping him (except a Forest):

Ups:
- Forest might Attack in the same turn
- you can sac forest to Natural Order, whil still keeping a 1/1 Blocker
- works well with Garruks Ulti
- Pendelhaeven gives you a 2/3 and a 4/5
- 4/5 might even mess with a goyf

Cons:
- vulnerable to Stiffle
- Opponent might kill the Druid in response to attack with forest, whcih leaves us with a Land less
- mass removel kills the guy AND a land

I don't get how killing the druid in response to attacking with forest would leave you a land less... As far as I understand it, if they kill the druid. Your 4/5 forest would just go back to being a forest.

The only con I see here is if they kill the forest while its a creature, leaving you a land less and a 1/1 creature. Which might pose as a problem early game. The druid as well is quite easy to kill. Against burn or anything with burn, it'll be quite easy to get rid of the druid, but it would have been as easy to get rid of spawnwrithe as well.

Protean Hydra would have been good, if we had more exalted creatures, it would have been virtually unkillable via combat damage. But I really don't think its worth the slot unless you actually have to dedicate more cards for the hydra.

[jazzykat]

Again, I've really not had a lot of time but I think that ice storm may be the ticket it is exactly 2G and if you keep the 3spheres in I think it could be a real beating.

Has anyone tested this yet? Has this not been done due to availability/price? I can't see how paired with 3sphere and wasteland and this often being a second turn play how it wouldn't be backbreaking especially with less dazes than I've seen a year ago.


You also have the option of main decking grips,viridian shaman, or running Phyrexian Warbeast (I wouldn't though).

Lastly, rootmaze might be pretty funny in this deck vs. fetchlands but then I don't think you can run chalice which seems to be a bigger beating to me.

[Antonius]

anyone considered blastoderm or hunting moa?

what about Saproling Burst (or is that too high on the curve?)

or what about Call of the herd?

[K_Rot_T]

;369483']I don't get how killing the druid in response to attacking with forest would leave you a land less... As far as I understand it, if they kill the druid. Your 4/5 forest would just go back to being a forest.


I meant that you have a Mana less for the turn, because you then got a tapped Forest.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Awakener druid could be cool with Garruk. If you dropped him turn 2, then follow up with Garruk you could swing with him and untap him.

So much removal in this format though, but worth trying.

[Rath]

Again, I've really not had a lot of time but I think that ice storm may be the ticket it is exactly 2G and if you keep the 3spheres in I think it could be a real beating.

Has anyone tested this yet? Has this not been done due to availability/price? I can't see how paired with 3sphere and wasteland and this often being a second turn play how it wouldn't be backbreaking especially with less dazes than I've seen a year ago.

I mentioned this earlier and still think it is a very viable option. While it does make the deck more "controllish", it is a very effective spell and fits into the curve + mana generation capabilities of this deck quite well.

That would bring you back to a build something along the lines of the following... which is pretty rough, and obviously the sideboard is rather wrong at this point (and untested I might add). Not sure if you would want the 4 Ice storm, or drop down to 3 and add something back in (a singleton loaming shaman perhaps?):

//Main
[4x] Llanowar Elves
[4x] Tarmogoyf
[4x] Natural Order
[4x] Chalice of the Void
[4x] Trinisphere
[4x] Elvish Spirit Guide
[4x] Ice Storm
[3x] Scryb Ranger
[3x] Garruk Wildspeaker
[3x] Wickerbough Elder
[2x] Umezawa's Jitte
[1x] Progenitus

[9x] Forest
[4x] Ancient Tomb
[4x] Wasteland
[2x] Wooded Foothills
[1x] Dryad Arbor

//Sideboard
[2x] Sword of Fire and Ice (??)
[2x] Loaming Shaman (??)
[3x] Choke
[3x] Krosan Grip
[3x] Tormod's Crypt
[2x] Crucible of Worlds

As I see it, this build would have less of a creature base, but with the 16 creatures (+ 4 ESG) and Garruck's beasts, you should have enough targets for jitte and NO.... and you should be impeding their resource development in the early game.

[Antonius]

i just want to say

after some testing, I've found that Call of the Herd is amazing. Turn 1 3/3 elephant is really strong.
Goyf's X/X+1 power/toughness pretty much guarantees that elephants have the upper hand in blocking at all times, so shitting out those elephants really puts a damper on your opponent's attack and makes hiding Garruk for the overrun win a lot easier.

I also tested Blastoderm and Phantom Centaur and found that I liked centaur better. Derm is harder to remove, but Centaur is just a house cause he LOL's@ other big dudes. He's also immortal (well other than swords or path) once you put SoFI on him. He's definitely worth running as 2-of, IMO.

the build I'm running with right now:

(20) land
12 Forest
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb

(21) Creatures
4 Llanowar
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Scryb Ranger
3 Wickerbough Elder
2 Phantom Centaur
1 Progenitus

(19) Spells
4 Call of the Herd
4 Chalice
4 Natural Order
3 Garruk
2 SoFI
2 Jitte

(15) SB
4 Trinisphere
3 Choke
2 Crucible
3 Loaming Shaman
3 Grip


I think I'm going to test Elephant Guide next. It's effect is not nearly as powerful as Jitte or SoFI, but it is (often) a full turn faster and sets a better clock. It also provides a 2-for-1 with pumps and a dude.
I'm also gonna test Hunting Moa too.

Also, has anyone tried using birds instead of elves? Flying over with SoFI is amazing; all the games where I got that in with scryb I won. The main problem is that bop + jitte = not auspicious.

[hyperchord24]

I've always liked Ravenous Baloth with Garruk.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Also, has anyone tried using birds instead of elves? Flying over with SoFI is amazing; all the games where I got that in with scryb I won. The main problem is that bop + jitte = not auspicious.

not auspicious = ominous. Grammatically owned@!!!!!!!!!

Sry. Not a bad idea. But if you were to go the 0/1 route, you'd probably go Noble Heirarch anyways over evasion. Also the same problem where 0/1 does zero against lackey or other 1/1, 2/1 creatures.

And yes, group blocking does still exist in the game :P 1/1 can still make a difference lol
3/3 beast + 1/1 elf vs 3/4 goyf... err, something like that I dunno. Just thinking of scenarios

[Antonius]

not auspicious = ominous. Grammatically owned@!!!!!!!!!

Sry. Not a bad idea. But if you were to go the 0/1 route, you'd probably go Noble Heirarch anyways over evasion. Also the same problem where 0/1 does zero against lackey or other 1/1, 2/1 creatures.

And yes, group blocking does still exist in the game :P 1/1 can still make a difference lol
3/3 beast + 1/1 elf vs 3/4 goyf... err, something like that I dunno. Just thinking of scenarios

very true; IDK, I haven't tested it, but a build with birds would be something Like the list I just posted but with -4 Elves, +4 birds and -2 Phantom Centaur, -2 Jitte, +3 Elephant Guide, +1 SoFI
I say again, the power of drawing extra cards and taking a dump all over their board is not to be underestimated. SoFI is retarded when its active.

As for Baloth...his problem is that the new combat rules pwned him =(. Still, he could be quite brutal in certain matchups (Goblins!) and that might make him a good Sideboard Option?
Btw, I think Goblins with Sharpshooters MD is a really bad matchup for us =/

[MTG-Fan]

Wait, wait, has anyone tried Chameleon Colossus in this yet?

I mean, 2GG, an ability for 2GG that will win the game for you if he's allowed to attack...

[sco0ter]

If I remember correctly, all these card choices you are bringing up now were already discussed half a year ago in the Elephant Stompy thread... Call of the Herd is even the namesake of this deck...

[Mystical_Jackass]

I mean, 2GG, an ability for 2GG that will win the game for you if he's allowed to attack...

1GG with Warchief in play :laugh: Yay!

He's really really good. I dunno why he wouldn't show up in this deck, that's actually a very good idea. With Garruk overrunning after a turn, he could just shi* in their cereal big time; 14/14 trampler plx? :O!

[Jak]

Wait, wait, has anyone tried Chameleon Colossus in this yet?

I mean, 2GG, an ability for 2GG that will win the game for you if he's allowed to attack...

How does it win you the game?

[Roman Candle]

How does it win you the game?

Your opponent has to AdN to 8 first.

[MTG-Fan]

How does it win you the game?

I heard there's this thing called the "combat phase" in this game.

[Jak]

I heard there's this thing called the "combat phase" in this game.

And in the combat phase there is also a blokers step. Oh and I also forgot to tell you that where I play, we start the game at 20 life and people play jank like Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Diabolic Edict, Wrath of God, etc. Obviously our metas must be different.

[MTG-Fan]

And in the combat phase there is also a blokers step. Oh and I also forgot to tell you that where I play, we start the game at 20 life and people play jank like Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Diabolic Edict, Wrath of God, etc. Obviously our metas must be different.

So because people have 20 life, it's pointless to try to play creatures?

And I heard this deck runs something called Chalice of the Void, that can be set to one. You know anything about that?

[Jak]

So because people have 20 life, it's pointless to try to play creatures?

And I heard this deck runs something called Chalice of the Void, that can be set to one. You know anything about that?

Wtf are you talking about? You just said that paying 8 mana over two turns to make an 8/8 wins you the game. I asked you how activating Colossus' ability wins you the game. Seriously Cavius...

[MTG-Fan]

Wtf are you talking about? You just said that paying 8 mana over two turns to make an 8/8 wins you the game. I asked you how activating Colossus' ability wins you the game. Seriously Cavius...

I didn't mean that literally. I thought you'd be smart enough to understand that that statement meant "he's a big guy that will eventually win the game for you, because you can abuse his ability with your fast mana production"

Also, who the hell is "Cavius"? Why do you keep calling me that?

[Jak]

I didn't mean that literally. I thought you'd be smart enough to understand that that statement meant "he's a big guy that will eventually win the game for you, because you can abuse his ability with your fast mana production"

Also, who the hell is "Cavius"? Why do you keep calling me that?

Lol you're calling me stupid because I didn't think 'I mean, 2GG, an ability for 2GG that will win the game for you if he's allowed to attack...' actually meant 'he's a big guy that will eventually win the game for you, because you can abuse his ability with your fast mana production'.

Also you sound a lot like someone I know, hence me calling you Cavius.

[Antonius]

I think Phantom Centaur > Chameleon Colossus. you don't need to hold four mana open to make him relevant in combat against, say, a goyf.

also, since new ideas are being discussed, has anyone considered running living wish? I've been running 3 living wish in the place of my 2GG creatures; works out pretty well, gives some flexibility in allowing us to wish for an answer or use that ESG mana to get a land and fix mana.
also, has anyone toyed around with Isao? He seems like a good creature for 2G (what we're all looking for) with abilities that make him quite relevant in combat.

[eq.firemind]

People, don't forget numbers. Let's count together.
For example, Dragon Stompy runs shitload of acceleration and only 3-4 Sloggers and 4 Pit Dragons. Other cards have CMC 3 or less.
Now The G.C.A. :cool: runs less accel, so 5-costs are not for us. And we have a lot of 4-costs like Garruk, Natural Order and Wickerbought Elder to choose. I don't get why this deck needs more.

[beastman]

I didn't mean that literally. I thought you'd be smart enough to understand that that statement meant "he's a big guy that will eventually win the game for you, because you can abuse his ability with your fast mana production"

Also, who the hell is "Cavius"? Why do you keep calling me that?

Because you either studied cavius' posts religiously in an attempt to post as badly as he did, or, more likely, you just created another new account after you got banned the first 3 times.

On the chameleon, I tested him for a little while, and found that his mana cost, lack of evasion, and the fact that swords singlehandedly set you back 2 turns if used in response to his pump ability just made him unusable.

[MTG-Fan]

Well, if you're pumping Chameleon and you don't have a Chalice@1 on the board, and you know your opponent plays Swords, you're kind of dumb.

[Antonius]

Well, if you're pumping Chameleon and you don't have a Chalice@1 on the board, and you know your opponent plays Swords, you're kind of dumb.

and Chameleon is irrelevant if you don't pump him. Again, Phantom Centaur is better

[eq.firemind]

Well, if you're pumping Chameleon and you don't have a Chalice@1 on the board, and you know your opponent plays Swords, you're kind of dumb deckbuilder 'cause you're running suboptimal cards.
Fixed for you, Cavius...


and Chameleon is irrelevant if you don't pump him. Again, Phantom Centaur is better
Again, Garruk or NO => Prog are far better plays and again if you run too much 4-costs, they'll just bash the consistency out of the deck...

[Antonius]

My bad, I didn't mean to come off as in favor of a 2GG creature--just that if you were to run one, that Centaur is way better than colossus.

Either way, I really enjoyed my list with 2 centaurs because he really is strong. But I get what you mean about consistency; I got a lot of top-heavy hands with that build.

Which is why I experimented with a living wish build this afternoon and I like it even better. Though I might not run centaur in the wishboard cause Baloth is more relevant in certain matchups

This is my current build:

(20) Land
4 Waste
4 Tomb
12 Forest

(17) Creatures
4 Elves
4 ESG
2 Wickerbough
3 Scryb Ranger
3 Goyf
1 Progenitus

(23) Spells
4 Call of the Herd
4 Chalice
3 Trinisphere
2 SoFI
4 Natural Order
3 Garruk
3 Living Wish

(15) SB
1 Ravenous Baloth
1 City of Traitors
1 Forest
1 Wickerbough Elder/Viridian Shaman
3 Loaming Shaman
3 Krosan Grip
3 Choke
2 ????

Main problem with wish is the same problem with goyf--it sucks under chalice for 2. It has, however, fixed a lot of games where I had mana problems.

[K_Rot_T]

Little Question, just out if curiosity: Whats with Hystrodon in there? You can Morph it for 3, then face it up and draw. Trample lets it come through small blockers and 4 Toughness is quite nice.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Try it out, see if it helps much. My first thought's that it would fit better in a chrome mox-elephant stompy-deck, where you abuse stuff like city of traitors and that more to guarantee a first turn Morph, Second turn swing.

In this deck it seems like it'd be subpar. Man.. if the morph was just 1G, that'd be bomb, then you could drop chalice & flip it turn 2 >.<

[eq.firemind]

Hystrodon is just lower than the today Legacy's powerlevel.

It was tested in Elephant Stompy and most of the time unmorph costs :2::g::g: 'cause you have at leas one :2:-land in play.

You can still try it out, but even fi you have enough green mana, for :4::g::g: you have far far better options...

[paK0]

Yesterday there was a big Legacy event here (I think 150 players or so).

I build some kind of Yankee version of the Deck (no NO or Garruk, couldnt get them).

I hardly got together a playset of everything i wanted but i tried nontheless =).
I didn't do too well (2-2-1, draw bc of time q.q) but if every Cameleon Colossos would have been a NO i would have gone like 4-1.

I realized how ridiculously good this can be, even with an unpowered Version.

So while i cannot provide a full decklist (will follow as soon as i get everything) i made some nice observations that might help:

Don't cut Spawnwithe, this thing was so amazing, it punishes supbar starts of your opponent and wins the game most of the time if left alone for 1 attack.

I maidecked some Loxodon Warhammers, since i couldn't get the "real" EQ, but it was so amazing that im not sure if i even want the others (played 2 Jitte though). A trampling Tarmo with lifelink or a Scrib Ranger that goes in for 4 is really nice to have. While i know that the carddraw of the SoFaI is important, some might wanna try it out i will try to keep 1 or 2 maindeck in the final list.

I also was very fond of snakeform, a removal that cantrips is so nice to have, I think its quite effective.

Just some thoughts, ill provide a Decklist in the near future (hopefully)

[Al-ucard]

I like this deck a lot, reminds me the old trinity green deck that I've play some years ago in extended. Hollywood, could you put your actual list and what changes will you do with sideboard against certain tier 1 matches? (merfolks, thresh decks, landstill...)

Thanks

[Morim_Brightsmoke]

This may sound silly, and I know we are looking for casting cost 2G or 2GG cards, but have you considered Spectral Force maybe just as a one or two of. An 8/8 trample is bigger than anything but 'Naught and Progenitus most of the time and you are already running the untap faerie.

Not a necessary addition, but if you just want one card that is a beater, possibly in builds that decide to run shusher in the spawnwrithe slot, since he is generally only worth 2-3 slots.

[Rath]

You made the StarCitygames front page (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/17905_Practical_Legacy_AggroComboControl.html) Hollywood!

And I quote...


A new deck that has been developed by Michael Keller (Hollywood on The Source)...

Enjoy your five minutes of fame, if you want to call it that *grin*. It may generate some new input or discussion on the deck if nothing else

[Wargoos]

I guess the germans had some of those green aggro lists first.
But I srsly don't give a damn, nice deck, nice play. gg.

[Michael Keller]

You made the StarCitygames front page (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/17905_Practical_Legacy_AggroComboControl.html) Hollywood!

And I quote...



Enjoy your five minutes of fame, if you want to call it that *grin*. It may generate some new input or discussion on the deck if nothing else

I'd like to see some new and exciting input on the deck. I haven't made any major adjustments to it really as of late. My list is still essentially the same, except I'm debating whether or not to exclude Spawnwrithe.

And also, the article was pretty cool. I appreciated the acknowledgment. The deck was in dire need of a serious placing, and I knew it had a serious shot against just about everything in the field. It is very straight-forward and no non-sense. Anwar summed it up perfectly.

[sauce]

can it beat staxx

[Michael Keller]

can it beat staxx

The short answer to your question is yes, it can and has defeated "Stax" variants.

This plays only in several specific ways like a Stax deck would play in that you can open with a turn one Trinisphere and pin someone beneath Wasteland. In this particular build, you can generate a large amount of creatures in a hurry, and win with Progenitus. Dodging opposing Chalice and Trinisphere is hardly ever a problem.

Cards like Wickerbough Elder in the main and Krosan Grip in the sideboard are very important in this match. You'll be sitting there with a 4/4 beater that has previously knocked off a critical lock component or something else relevant, setting yourself up for the win. This is also where Spawnwrithe would be great; you generate plenty of permanents in a hurry and they just can't outrace you (if they drop Magus of the Tabernacle, that's another story. Still, you maintain a solid edge).

[MTG-Fan]

I don't see this ever beating Canadian Threshold tho.

[Michael Keller]

I don't see this ever beating Canadian Threshold tho.

Really? Wow..I suppose going Chalice for one, turn one, doesn't stop:

Stifle
Lightning Bolt
Brainstorm
Ponder
Nimble Mongoose

And, of course, Trinisphere doesn't shut down THE ENTIRE DECK. Elvish Spirit Guide doesn't stop Daze apparently, and Wasteland does no good against the entire mana-foundation. I must have also forgot Wickerbough Elder does nothing against Counterbalance. And Sword of Fire and Ice is absolutely useless. It apparently cannot pump every single creature in the deck to annihilate the only threats the deck poses.

Thresh ALWAYS has a difficult time dealing with Chalice-based aggro decks and/or Stax variants the like. This has been common knowledge since its inception years ago. I even beat a variant of it at the tournament I placed third in.

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

[MTG-Fan]

Really? Wow..I suppose going Chalice for one, turn one, doesn't stop:

Stifle
Lightning Bolt
Brainstorm
Ponder
Nimble Mongoose

And, of course, Trinisphere doesn't shut down THE ENTIRE DECK. Elvish Spirit Guide doesn't stop Daze apparently, and Wasteland does no good against the entire mana-foundation. I must have also forgot Wickerbough Elder does nothing against Counterbalance. And Sword of Fire and Ice is absolutely useless. It apparently cannot pump every single creature in the deck to annihilate the only threats the deck poses.


You're making the assumption that you will always get Chalice/Trini in play vs, the Threshold player, who can always counter your stuff or K-Grip it.

[Shawon]

You're making the assumption that you will always get Chalice/Trini in play vs, the Threshold player, who can always counter your stuff or K-Grip it.

Not always, but frequently enough to cause a problem against Canadian Threshold if they don't have answers. There's no such thing as wrong threats, remember. Besides, if you play real Magic, a traditional strategy against counters is to throw as many threats and see what sticks. Canadian Threshold can't counter/answer all of your threats.

Anyhow, you do know that Canadian Threshold runs 18-20 lands right? It doesn't always topdeck or open with lands to hit 3 mana consistently. The deck uses 8 cantrips and depends on them to find lands/answers. Shutting those down with Chalice or Trinisphere tremendously slows them down as they not only have to assemble 3 mana, they have to find that Krosan Grip.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Heh, I actually lossed to a deck similar to this a few days ago. The funny thing, he splashed blue for mystical tutor & brainstorm. He got NO-->Proj on me game 1, I didn't even see it coming lol.. died in like 4 turns. Game 2 I had 3x!!!! Ghostly Prisons down... almost thought I could pull off the win, DOH! He used brainstorm/fetch and found his 6th land to swing for the win (I was at 9 life :*[) Good games :smile:

[Michael Keller]

You're making the assumption that you will always get Chalice/Trini in play vs, the Threshold player, who can always counter your stuff or K-Grip it.

If my opponent is going to counter something to supplement my forces, then by all means: Go right ahead. It's tit for tat; I do something, you counter. The age-old argument. Unfortunately, that is not always the case. Because, if those cards DO stick, then your Thresh player will have a VERY serious problem on their hands.

Again, Daze is not an issue; there are too many ways to get around it with this deck to worry about that. Force of Will? Two for one is fine by me off a static artifact. Point is, I have more relevant threats than a Thresh player.

[Al-ucard]

Lately I've been playing with canadian Threshold and I have to say that this deck has the problem that don't have cards that really give card advantage (like Standstill, Ancestral Vision, Fact or Fiction...) to have always a counter in hand to stop all threads.

Lets see how many counters has this deck:

4 Force of Will -> OK
4 Spell Snare -> (tarmogoyf, chalice @ 1)
4 Daze -> OK

Lets see how many threads for canadian has chalice green:

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wickerbough elder
4 Natural Order
3-4 Spawnwrithe
4 Chalice of the void
2-3 Umezawa's Jitte
2-0 Swords of fire and Ice
3-4 Trinisphere

And don't forget about Choke in side that entirely wreck this deck.

Edit: And of course this deck has more lands, wastelands and don't have fetchlands.

[Shanghi Knights]

You're making the assumption that you will always get Chalice/Trini in play vs, the Threshold player, who can always counter your stuff or K-Grip it.

lets see them be able to counter more than 2 of the heavy hitters that are played from this deck. To boot the regular stompy shell that eats up counters and any mana effective spot removal such decks as thresh are known to run.

[Facevaulter]

Hi guys,

Been lurking on this thread since I first saw it and decided to put Hollywood's latest list together for a small tourney coming up. Couple of questions though.

1) Has spawnwrithe continued to be an effective finisher? I'm a bit scared of counting on him to pull through and seeing a WoG ruin my day.

2) With scryb ranger and Garruk tricks would including a CC5 (Thinking pride of lions actually <--- lol at this with SoFI) be too much investment over say the utility of Wickerbough in the Maindeck?

3) Loaming Shaman's CIP ability reads: when "I gots a shovel!" comes into play target player shuffles any number of target cards into thier library. Aside from the wording, one of those hilarious target of a target target throwbacks, how do you play him out exactly? Not being sarcastic here just not understanding him against dredge or another relevant MU that relies on yard use.

Thats about it...Heres to dropping chalice at one then chalice at two against TES.

[Tacosnape]

3) Loaming Shaman's CIP ability reads: when "I gots a shovel!" comes into play target player shuffles any number of target cards into thier library. Aside from the wording, one of those hilarious target of a target target throwbacks, how do you play him out exactly? Not being sarcastic here just not understanding him against dredge or another relevant MU that relies on yard use.

I'm not sure I understand your question.

You drop the Loaming Shaman. If Loaming Shaman resolves, you put his trigger on the stack, choosing all targets. You choose the targets in order written on the card. So you choose the player, then you choose what all cards they're going to shuffle back in. You pretty much control everything.

[Facevaulter]

I'm still pretty confused by this guy :confused:

Where I'm getting mixed up is I guess this part of his ability text:
target player shuffles any part of target cards from his/her yard into his/her library.

the way this is coming off to me is like this. I resolve shaman. I pick my opponent. They pick X cards in thier GY and put them back in thier library?

I guess what I'm really missing is how you decide what cards go back in thier library from thier GY

[frodo21]

Hey guys.

I just made 3-1 yesterday at a local tournament, just loosing the final.

I won to holy pox.deck, burn and goblins, loosing to GWconfinment/loam.

My list hasn't changed. The deck is very strong.

[scrumdogg]

I'm still pretty confused by this guy :confused:

Where I'm getting mixed up is I guess this part of his ability text:
target player shuffles any part of target cards from his/her yard into his/her library.

the way this is coming off to me is like this. I resolve shaman. I pick my opponent. They pick X cards in thier GY and put them back in thier library?

I guess what I'm really missing is how you decide what cards go back in thier library from thier GY

RTFC...YOU choose the player and YOU choose all the cards (any cards that YOU want them to shuffle back in), THEY shuffle those cards back into THEIR library and then YOU cut their deck, having wrecked THEIR strategy... Not rocket science...

Going to play this today, with the Shushers main, will post results later

[Facevaulter]

Just realized it the other day while driving that since you control the effect you control the targets. Durrr....

Good luck Scrumm.

[beastman]

RTFC...YOU choose the player and YOU choose all the cards (any cards that YOU want them to shuffle back in), THEY shuffle those cards back into THEIR library and then YOU cut their deck, having wrecked THEIR strategy... Not rocket science...

Going to play this today, with the Shushers main, will post results later

How'd you do scrummy?

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

How'd you do scrummy?

+1. I'm kind of interested in this deck, because I'm looking for a new list to slowly put together.

[CorpT]

Does anyone have any sideboard suggestions/plans? My meta has a ton of Merfolk, some Bant-type Counter-Top, and I know there will be some Team America at a big tournament tomorrow.

[TOGITwill]

Vexing Shusher and Choke are the super secret tech.

[beastman]

Vexing Shusher and Choke are the super secret tech.

+1

Choke is teh sexy against thresh and merfolk.

[CorpT]

Does it make sense to replace Llanowar Elf with Noble Hierarch? It helps win Goyf wars and still fills the same role of early acceleration.

[JamSpot]

I believe the choice of Elf has been discussed already. The reasoning was to have something in play to block a lackey or something along those lines.

[Mr. Fix it]

i almost wanna suggest adding magus of the vineyard over lanowar elf. only down side is your opponent gets mana too and don't need to give them fuel for grip. now that mana burn is a thing of the past. serves the same purpose and makes more mana.

but if all your doing is using it as a blocker you might as well be better off with skyshroud elite as its bound to get bigger. of course it doesn't produce mana like lanowar but it sure can last longer.

[FlyingSkull13]

I piloted this deck at the DHG tourney in Rhode Island over the weekend, i went 2-3 drop due to inexperience with the deck, but split the finals of a side event. i actually didnt run trinisphere at all in sb or md, i'm actuatlly wondering how other people do their sideboarding for archtypes. :) thanks hollywood for lists to work with.

As for playing the deck, i was very impressed with the explosiveness of the deck. It just felt like you were in every game, and my loses came to punting a match vs zoo, enchantress, and survival zoo. if i can get advice about what archtypes we bring trinispheres in.

[Michael Keller]

I piloted this deck at the DHG tourney in Rhode Island over the weekend, i went 2-3 drop due to inexperience with the deck, but split the finals of a side event. i actually didnt run trinisphere at all in sb or md, i'm actuatlly wondering how other people do their sideboarding for archtypes. :) thanks hollywood for lists to work with.

As for playing the deck, i was very impressed with the explosiveness of the deck. It just felt like you were in every game, and my loses came to punting a match vs zoo, enchantress, and survival zoo. if i can get advice about what archtypes we bring trinispheres in.

Nice work. How was it working without the 3Sphere in the main or board?

[FlyingSkull13]

i didnt really miss it, the only combo deck i played against was enchantress, i had sided in its place 2 shusher, 1 pithning needle, 1 krosan grip, i didnt use needle, but shusher did factor into one match. I just need more experience with the deck, i'm wondering though what the point of trinisphere is in other matchups? like against zoo, should u side them in after g1?

[Michael Keller]

i didnt really miss it, the only combo deck i played against was enchantress, i had sided in its place 2 shusher, 1 pithning needle, 1 krosan grip, i didnt use needle, but shusher did factor into one match. I just need more experience with the deck, i'm wondering though what the point of trinisphere is in other matchups? like against zoo, should u side them in after g1?

It really all depends on what happens game one. If you lose, then you're going to find yourself needing to get off to a faster start game two. You're going to end up wanting to drop Trinisphere within the first two turns. If you can't, it doesn't become too much a factor.

Against most decks packing one-drop creatures, you should have no trouble. Your creatures are larger and relatively cheap, which can help you match an opponent laying their forces out early.

As far as Pithing Needle goes, it really depends on your meta. Needle is really good in a lot of matches, but you already have a solid utility out of everything else in the deck that it really feels like a wasted slot; I could be wrong.

[FlyingSkull13]

agree with you about needle, i think overall, the deck performed well, just need more practice, i have very little xperience with trinisphere :)
side note, choke was amazing for me, but for other people, it was a double bladed sword, where if it comes down too late, they just play around it

[FlyingSkull13]

now, earlier posts suggested we fit crucible into the list, i'm wondering what we could cut from sb to make room?

[Nekrataal]

In a german article about legacy and an evaluation of cards from Zendikar I found a suggestion that proposes Lotus Cobra for this deck. On first sight this doesn't look too bad. It nets you mana which can be used to pump out an early Garruk or Progenitus. With a Llanowar Elf in play it could give you 6 mana on turn 3. It costs 2 so avoids typical Chalice 0,1.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Play Lotus Cobra + Fetchlands, you'll have some pretty explosive plays right off the bat.

T1
Forest, Llanower Elf

T2
tap Llanower and forest, play Lotus Cobra.
play fetchland, crack fetch -- add 2 mana to pool, tap land --3 mana to pool

play Trini/Tanglewire/chalice/goyf etc.

[FlyingSkull13]

problem is that we're trying to keep the fetches to a minimal to stop the styfle effects, depending on your metagame, you could try that aproach, i think with an infusion of new fetches, we will b seeing an increase in the amount of styfles from blue decks across the board

[jazzykat]

So I tested the original list with the following changes:
- Pendlehavens
+ Forests

- Selkies
- 1 River Boa
+4 Ice storms

At times I felt like I was cheating. So many decks run 8 fetches and ~12 land or so. The combination of Waste, Storm, 3shpere and to a lesser extent CotV usually keep them out of the game.

Natural Order was also randomly hillarious and gives you a viable out to a situation that is unwinnable. It happened to work all in my favor last night but I have a feeling that if you get a progenitus down you often don't lose.

Lastly, I never fully appreciated how good Jitte is. In a special situation last night I was going to be able to race a Tombstalker with an ESG :/ The card provides too much power. IMO this is the premiere anti metagame deck.

[Michael Keller]

Lastly, I never fully appreciated how good Jitte is. In a special situation last night I was going to be able to race a Tombstalker with an ESG :/ The card provides too much power. IMO this is the premiere anti metagame deck.

Jitte certainly does provide you a great advantage by powering up your smaller creatures and maximizing their efficiency (and utility). You can race and even hold off larger threats with Jitte in the most critical circumstances; that's certainly no surprise. I do feel, however, that Jitte's effectiveness does go rather unnoticed to a lot of people; I was one myself at one time.

The original purpose of the deck was to stifle (no pun intended) the influence the most prevalent decks in the larger scheme of things. Decks like Merfolk and Thresh consistently place in large events, and for good reason. They are fine-tuned machines and with a good pilot can prove to be even more deadly. The sole purpose of this deck was to completely counter the different points of effectiveness those decks had and subsequently punish them by turning their own resources against them (i.e. Islandwalk, Protection from Red and Blue, etc.).

If you just take a step back and look at the decks that are winning, it makes perfect sense to create a foil to those archetypes because people come out like cockroaches at large events just flooding the damn tables with the same thing. Trick is to gauge the perceived notions going into a large event and just play against the norm. Sometimes it works; sometimes it doesn't.

I've taken many chances over the years like I did with M.G.C.A. and it proved to be effective because people were less prepared for it. I still think people are because the deck utilizes every optimum anti-establishment card in the format. Smaller, cheaper creatures are in the deck to supplement your control elements like Wasteland and Trinisphere (that is, assuming you play it, which I strongly recommend due to its absurd game-changing capability).

[Hiis]

Has anyone considered or tried Bind in this deck? Obviously it's not a green stifle but it has it's pros, Bind isn't hit by chalice@1 and it even cantrips. I think it's worth exploring because something like turn 1 bind on a fetchland while on the play (obviously with ESG) followed by wasteland seems pretty good.

[jazzykat]

Has anyone considered or tried Bind in this deck? Obviously it's not a green stifle but it has it's pros, Bind isn't hit by chalice@1 and it even cantrips. I think it's worth exploring because something like turn 1 bind on a fetchland while on the play (obviously with ESG) followed by wasteland seems pretty good.

I love LD, but I think you have to consider that is a bit of a corner case. What's more you generally want to be tapping out in the opening turns dropping threats/dudes. I would say it is the ultimate vs. deed but you have the more versatile Grip to take care of it.

EDIT: Do you ever feel like your opponents are more like victims with this deck? CoTV=1, River Boa, NO-->Prog, Jitted Llanowar elves. When I first played against this deck I was like Oh-noes another threat!

[Michael Keller]

I have also been toying with the notion of playing Krosan Grip in the main, maybe as a two-of. I like the Wickerbough Elders as they can be activated the turn they hit play. The only thing is that catching an opponent off-guard with K.G. is always a key play in just about any game you play.

It's rather funny: In my original list (in the preparation for the tournament it placed 3rd in), I was going around asking everyone for Ice Storms. Putting yourself ahead with a ridiculous amount of acceleration and then offing your opponent's resources is just cruel. It has been since the game started and it's a strategy right out of the play-book from 1993, and is still very effective.

If you feel the deck warrants it, by all means try Ice Storm out. The fact it costs 2G and not 1GG given all the colorless mana sources the deck sports, Ice Storm is far more effective in this deck than any other land-destruction spell currently available (that is green).

[AlterEgo]

Has anyone ever tested/thought of Werebear?
I know he's mostly being seen as the 'Tarmogoyf of the poor' and with the introduction of Lotus Cobra cmc2 has even more good cards - effectively even nullifying his "Tap: :g:" ability.

Have you had problems in constantly getting seven cards in your graveyard?

[FlyingSkull13]

Tourney this sat in rhode island, i'll b attending piloting this deck, i'll give a semi report on the thread afterwards

[jazzykat]

I've been wanting to post something for about 4 days but haven't found the time until now. First here is my current list:

//Main
[4x] Llanowar Elves
[4x] Tarmogoyf
[4x] Natural Order
[4x] Chalice of the Void
[4x] Trinisphere
[4x] Elvish Spirit Guide
[4x] Ice Storm
[3x] Scryb Ranger
[3x] Garruk Wildspeaker
[1x] Wickerbough Elder
[3x] Umezawa's Jitte
[1x] Progenitus

[13x] Forest
[4x] Ancient Tomb
[4x] Wasteland


//Sideboard
[2x] Sword of Fire and Ice
[4x] Choke
[3x] Krosan Grip
[3x] Tormod's Crypt
[3x] Snakeform

It has been a remarkably consistent performer. Some observations from testing a lot of games vs. random opponents on MWS:

First the benefits. On the play, first turn Chalice=1, has a 25% or so scoop ratio. That's a lot of games of Magic you just don't have to play.

Secondly, Icestorm is truly a house. Some people play Spawnwrithe in its slot and has gotten mixed reviews in the thread. The average highly competitive decks are relatively land light. A good manabase is generally designed to take a wasteland hit or 2, and you have to play around stifle. They also play basics which generally tend to fix your manabase, ice storm doesn't actually care. This deck doesn't play appropriately by the rules. It smashes land , drops chalice (@1 or in special ocaisions at 2) and trinisphere making what they can play limited. Not all decks get to come back from having turn 2 Icestorm, turn 3 wasteland. Llanowar elves start to get in for an obscene amount of damage while they are trying to find a forest to play the Tarmogoyf they drew 4 turns ago.

Now to the compromises and issues I'm still having.

Next, you'll notice my manabase is no frills. Stifle is a mostly dead card vs. me and there wastelands only have 8 targets but if they burn a wasteland on a tomb then I am probably ahead of the game because then they have even less mana to actually use.

I tried playing with 2 Horizon Canopy's and they worked as you would expect. The problem is that you were tapping out every turn until your hand was empty and with tombs I felt the damage was too much, since my build is not hyper aggro.

I HATED the lone Dryad Arbor in the deck. First I can't get mana from it the turn it comes into play. My build more than most builds has to be doing something always in the first few turns. Waiting for the third mana or not having a first turn play is unacceptable. I play creatures and will sac one if I have it because I'm not having my tempo (land drop) robbed with their removal.

-Fetches, since I don't play the Dryad Arbor I find it more amusing for my opponents to play dead cards.

I really hate playing 21 land but I hate mulliganing more. I have tried 20 and was frustrated more than I was happy on MWS. I would really want to go back to 20 land but I would need to test a lot more to be sure of that.

I really want to play 2 Pendlehavens in the deck with the Llanowars and especially the Scryb Rangers but I am undecided given that I turn on their wastelands more. Probably not a problem and the next thing I will test.

Scryb Ranger is excellent. I mean really excellent in this deck. It adds many other (limited) dimensions like creature removal (they attack with a dark confidant or lackey), playing around counterspells, EVASION (equipment is run here), even more mana production, blocker tricks, protection of forests from sinkholes, and the list goes on. Pro blue is weird but I'll take it.

Fire can owns us. Luckily the main place fire is played is in Canadian Thresh and Chalice = 1, and to a lesser extent 3sphere, owns them.

I find myself almost always siding out NO/Prog vs. blue decks, is that wrong? I just don't want to get 2for1ed and Choke is hillarious vs. them anway.

It's been said many times already. Garruk is AWESOME. Is 4 too many, only if you don't have the mana to cast the second (i.e. you 2xESG out the first one or something). His beasts win more games for me than Progenitus does.

Drawing progenitus sucks, but you can still turn your llanowar elf into a tarmogoyf.

I have trouble with the SB.

Snakeform was good vs. the Marit Lage decks but otherwise I'm not sure if we should be running it.

I think a few crucibles might be nice but then we definitely need fetches, and could maybe use only 20 lands and some specialty lands (Dryad Arbor, Pendlehaven).

I've really liked Tormod's Cyrpt. It is helpful vs. the usual suspects. Since we have no way to find it I'm strongly considering a 4th.

Generally I have no idea what to remove when I want to bring in SoFI. LD is so good vs. zoo that I am never sure. Against tribal with aether vial then I would probably cut out the ice storms.

I'm really interested to see what people think about my list, if they agree or disagree with my observations, and to hear their solutions.

[jazzykat]

Have you had problems in constantly getting seven cards in your graveyard?

Yes. Limited or no fetches. Mostly permanents, and no cantrips you don't really want cards in your graveyard otherwise it would mean that you are losing.

[jazzykat]

Given the level of current activity in this thread I'm not sure if anyone still cares but I'd like to share just in case.

I have since went down to 20 lands replacing 1 forest with a scryb ranger.

Testing on mws vs the random only saw me going 50/50. Aether Vial is my configurations number one enemy.

Pendlehaven was nifty but I didn't see it creating a game breaking effect. I can't bounch it with ranger and if it got wasted there could be a large problem coming up with GG mana for NO or garruk.

[FlyingSkull13]

I still care, i'm trying to write a report about a tourney i went to in RI, i wrecked car on the way back, so its a little hectic right now, i'll have report later

[ryO!]

Here is my list

[4x] Llanowar Elves
[4x] Tarmogoyf
[4x] Natural Order
[4x] Chalice of the Void
[4x] Trinisphere
[4x] Elvish Spirit Guide
[3x] Scryb Ranger
[3x] Garruk Wildspeaker
[3x] Wickerbough Elder (meta that require them 3x)
[3x] Umezawa's Jitte
[1x] Progenitus

[2x] Eternal witness // Wild Mongrel
any thoughts about those?
mongrel : i was bored to draw progenitus -.-, not sure it's the wiser choice but well it's still a 2/2 boostable that can change color.
EWitness : well many possibilities, goes more or less through CB etc...

//Land
[13x] Forest
[4x] Ancient Tomb
[4x] Wasteland
//sb
[4x] Choke
[3x] Relic
[3x] Krosan
[3x] Snakeform
[2x] SoFI

any ideas?

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I've always been a little suspicious of Snakeform in this deck's sideboard... Does that shit really work, man??

Also, why does everyone continue to not run Ohran Viper? That guy would be awesome wearing a Jitte, and you could play him on your second turn, most likely...

[ryO!]

I've always been a little suspicious of Snakeform in this deck's sideboard... Does that shit really work, man??

Also, why does everyone continue to not run Ohran Viper? That guy would be awesome wearing a Jitte, and you could play him on your second turn, most likely...

damn totally had forgotten about that one
it could indeed be a wiser choice rather than Ewistness/WMongrel/Slekie/boaRiver

about snakeform well it s more or less detroy target attacking/blocking creature + draw a card which is cool ^^

[Nekrataal]

Here is my list

[4x] Llanowar Elves
[4x] Tarmogoyf
[4x] Natural Order
[4x] Chalice of the Void
[4x] Trinisphere
[4x] Elvish Spirit Guide
[3x] Scryb Ranger
[3x] Garruk Wildspeaker
[3x] Wickerbough Elder (meta that require them 3x)
[3x] Umezawa's Jitte
[1x] Progenitus

[2x] Eternal witness // Wild Mongrel
any thoughts about those?
mongrel : i was bored to draw progenitus -.-, not sure it's the wiser choice but well it's still a 2/2 boostable that can change color.
EWitness : well many possibilities, goes more or less through CB etc...

//Land
[13x] Forest
[4x] Ancient Tomb
[4x] Wasteland
//sb
[4x] Choke
[3x] Relic
[3x] Krosan
[3x] Snakeform
[2x] SoFI

any ideas?

I basically threw together the same list and did some testgames because i hoped that this deck could be good in a Zoo/Thresh with orwithout CB/Merfolk/some Combo Meta. I actually found the range of opening hands from absolutely fantastic to very poor (I almost expected this with Stompy Land base and Trini/CotV because these decks tend to play out this way). The poor starts usually fell into two categories:

- slow hands with just some weenies and no equipments drawn afterwards or
- a mediocre start with better creatures but these are dimished throughout the first turns with no lock or combo element (CotV, Trinisphere, Equipment, Natural Order) to follow up to seal the win

... were I supposed to mulligan such hands ?

So coming back to Duke and ryO, I also think the deck needs some more potent creatures. Viper also came to my mind and fortunately I own a playset of them. The issue here I guess is supporting double G but with 4x Mana Elf and other ways to quickly ramp to GG even with just one Forest out this could be feasible. Regarding Snakeform: G can deal with everything but creatures and in that it is even worse than U which can at least bounce things. Duke, I remember you also advocating the W splash for Merfolks which is mainly a StoP matter and now you are arguing that removal should not even be a SB choice (OK Stop >> Snakeform but Snakeform >> no removal at all). Honestly I havent played a lot with SB choices of this deck up to now and I also didn't blue Mono U Merfolks with Snakeform but at least having the possibility to "destroy target attacking/blocking creature + draw a card" provides a good gut feeling than imagining a Tombstalker crushing you Game 1 and 2.

[ryO!]

and how about this Deadly Recluse?
this would be an answer to tombstalker & other flying creatures
but orhan got 3 toughness + draw engine and 1GG avoid CB most of the time
dont rly know i gotta test it

[FlyingSkull13]

i agree with posted list in increasing the forest count, also the aggro matchup is a nightmare, bc unless u have chalice or trinisphere, they run u over, also the goblin matchup is a nightmare, its almost 50/50 depending on who wins the die roll, as a side note, i'm in favor of cutting a wasteland for a forest, my list is Hollywood's 2nd

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

As far as improving the aggro match-up, what about Elephant Grass in the sideboard?

...I know it's a non-combo with Chalice, and it doesn't exactly work well with Trinisphere either, but at least it would give this deck a potential 12 cards that you could have in your opening hand that would pretty much wreck Zoo. (4 Chalice, 4 3Sphere, 4 E Grass)

It's probably not the best solution, but what else is there? Would Ensnaring Bridge be worth a look perhaps? (We could always... um... use Wickerbough Elder to destroy it if we want to set up the Progenitus win, right?)

Fuck. It's kind of hard thinking of things that this deck can sideboard against aggro.

[popiezhius]

It's kind of hard thinking of things that this deck can sideboard against aggro.
I tried tangle wire in slightly different deck and not much, so my knowledge about their usefulness is limited. But against goblins they did wonders, i.e. 2-3 time walks. And they work well with chalice, equipment and garruk. Not sure about zoo, but they should work the similar way.

[FlyingSkull13]

goblins was so bad, just bc if they are on play and have lackey, we either have LE or man land, or we lose... but that is the nature of the beast

[tsabo_tavoc]

I tried tangle wire in slightly different deck and not much, so my knowledge about their usefulness is limited. But against goblins they did wonders, i.e. 2-3 time walks. And they work well with chalice, equipment and garruk. Not sure about zoo, but they should work the similar way.

One cannot wire Garruk.

Kitchen finks cook Aggro and fit the deck better than non-creature solutions.

[ryO!]

how about running Wall of Roots then? if you fear aggro that much
can be dropped turn 1, can block anything and can be used as a mana accelerator each turn, + good food for NO + one extra land for daze

[AlterEgo]

One cannot wire Garruk.


True - but one CAN wire lands, which Garruk can then untap. I think that's what popiezhius meant.

[RexFTW]

//Main
[4x] Llanowar Elves
[4x] Tarmogoyf
[4x] Natural Order
[4x] Chalice of the Void
[4x] Trinisphere
[4x] Elvish Spirit Guide
[4x] Spawnwrithe
[3x] Scryb Ranger
[3x] Garruk Wildspeaker
[1x] Wickerbough Elder
[3x] Umezawa's Jitte
[1x] Progenitus

[13x] Forest
[4x] Ancient Tomb
[4x] Wasteland

Just won a 17 man tourney with this guy :)

[ryO!]

//Main
[4x] Llanowar Elves
[4x] Tarmogoyf
[4x] Natural Order
[4x] Chalice of the Void
[4x] Trinisphere
[4x] Elvish Spirit Guide
[4x] Spawnwrithe
[3x] Scryb Ranger
[3x] Garruk Wildspeaker
[1x] Wickerbough Elder
[3x] Umezawa's Jitte
[1x] Progenitus

[13x] Forest
[4x] Ancient Tomb
[4x] Wasteland

Just won a 17 man tourney with this guy :)
does the Spawnwrithe works that well?
i really think that ohran viper is better for this deck.
how were your match up?
what was your sb?

[aTn]

The deck posted 1st and 5th place showings at a local tournament (Montreal, QC, Canada) with 34 players (6 Swiss rounds + Top8). The first prize was a Mox Jet. Link (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=403467&postcount=153)

I'm not this lists creator nor did I pilot it. I'm simply posting it for the benefit of the Legacy community.

This deck should be taken seriously. It is a force in the metagame right now.

Cheers.

1. MGCA, Alexandre Le Goff (Team CRET)
5. MGCA, Ugo Rivard (Team CRET)

3 Cold-Eyed Selkie
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Progenitus
4 River boa
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Wickerbough Elder
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Natural Order
4 Chalice of the void
4 Trinisphere
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Windswept heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
7 Forest
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Pendelhaven
4 Wasteland

SB
2 Krosan Grip
4 Choke
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ravenous trap
4 Summoning trap
1 Progenitus

[RexFTW]

does the Spawnwrithe works that well?
i really think that ohran viper is better for this deck.
how were your match up?
what was your sb?

He works really well with garruk. If you can sneak in once... then untap 2 lands with garruk. They then must attack (leaving an opening to get even more dudes) or get overrun by garruk.
He also 'gets by' silvergill adept, cursecatcher and confidant with trample ;)

I dont know if ohran viper is better in the long run but spawnwrith is quite good for the agro plan in my deck.

I played ANT threshold merfolk and UBk contertop. (more than once for some of them)

[elgoff]

The deck posted 1st and 5th place showings at a local tournament (Montreal, QC, Canada) with 34 players (6 Swiss rounds + Top8). The first prize was a Mox Jet. Link (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=403467&postcount=153)

I'm not this lists creator nor did I pilot it. I'm simply posting it for the benefit of the Legacy community.

This deck should be taken seriously. It is a force in the metagame right now.

Cheers.

1. MGCA, Alexandre Le Goff (Team CRET)
5. MGCA, Ugo Rivard (Team CRET)

3 Cold-Eyed Selkie
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Progenitus
4 River boa
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Wickerbough Elder
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Natural Order
4 Chalice of the void
4 Trinisphere
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Windswept heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
7 Forest
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Pendelhaven
4 Wasteland

SB
2 Krosan Grip
4 Choke
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ravenous trap
4 Summoning trap
1 Progenitus

Hi! That's me in First place ;)

I've been thinking about running this list since a month or so and with the help of my teammate here's the result!!!! 1st and 5th place on a 34 men tournament.

About the deck:

- There's no point running Llanowar Elf.

Noble Hierarch is way better in every angle (except for blocking a X/1...but you shoudn't have blocked anyway!!). The Exalted ability just give the cut all alone. It pomps your Islandwalk creatures and seriously makes your Tarmogoyf bigger than the one in front of you... For that particular reason Hierarch should be in your deck over poor little Elf. If you play to win think about this.

- Humility is our enemy #1. Our Elder can't do anything about it!??$%

- Fallowed by Magus of the Moat... Have you thought about this..! I prefer 1000 times having to face the real thing (ie Moat)!!

- Summoning Trap is an hilarious card. No, it's not even funny... Some poeple (friends) I played against during the day knew about our "Special Trap Tech" in the SB. When I faced those guys, they wouldn't Counter any of my creatures, in fear of seeing THE Trap comming out to sneak a Progenitus into play...or any other card for what matters!?!? Is that what we call "Mind Game"!!! Other player that didn't knew the tactic just wouldn't understand what just happened!! Plus, the Trap can easilly be played end of turn for it's full cost... Ugo & I've done it a couple of time over the 6 rounds.

- Cold-Eye Selkie and River Boa were excellent in my metagame packed with blue decks. I beleive those slots are meta-dependant. Boa blocked Tarmogoyf all day long and Selkie...Outch! If she manage to get online turn after turn, you just sealed the game. I didn't thought about running Scryb Ranger, I'll have to test it out to see if it deserve a place in over some of those guys.

- I over evaluated "Dredge" for this tournament dedicating 4 sideboard slot for nothing. I would have play 1 more Krosan Grip for sure.

- I did like the inclusion of 3x Fetch Lands. I like to shuffle a lot!!

- Allmighty Choke was a bate most of the time for N.O.!! Love it!

- Trinisphere (1x to 4x), Garruk (1x to 3x), Cold-Eye Selkie (3x) and River Boa (1x to 4x) were the cards I sideboarded the most during the day. Everything else remained untouched main deck. I've sideboarded in 4x Choke + 4x trap + 1x Progenitus in a couple of time... So must of the time Trinisphere was the first to get cut out.

That's about it for my point of view!!!

Play the deck!!

[ryO!]

- There's no point running Llanowar Elf.

Noble Hierarch is way better in every angle (except for blocking a X/1...but you shoudn't have blocked anyway!!). The Exalted ability just give the cut all alone. It pomps your Islandwalk creatures and seriously makes your Tarmogoyf bigger than the one in front of you... For that particular reason Hierarch should be in your deck over poor little Elf. If you play to win think about this.

i do agree, but the only time you can regret that choice is vs goblin, but i also think that in most of the time NH will be better, also wanted to try wall of roots

- Humility is our enemy #1. Our Elder can't do anything about it!??$%

krosan FTW ok g2 only though :D

- Fallowed by Magus of the Moat... Have you thought about this..! I prefer 1000 times having to face the real thing (ie Moat)!!

thats why i run Scryb Ranger which is imo lot better than river boa because even if theres no bleu card it still has evasion + usefull capacity

- Summoning Trap is an hilarious card. No, it's not even funny... Some poeple (friends) I played against during the day knew about our "Special Trap Tech" in the SB. When I faced those guys, they wouldn't Counter any of my creatures, in fear of seeing THE Trap comming out to sneak a Progenitus into play...or any other card for what matters!?!? Is that what we call "Mind Game"!!! Other player that didn't knew the tactic just wouldn't understand what just happened!! Plus, the Trap can easilly be played end of turn for it's full cost... Ugo & I've done it a couple of time over the 6 rounds.

never thought about, and i think it s indeed damn relevant in this deck

- Cold-Eye Selkie and River Boa were excellent in my metagame packed with blue decks. I beleive those slots are meta-dependant. Boa blocked Tarmogoyf all day long and Selkie...Outch! If she manage to get online turn after turn, you just sealed the game. I didn't thought about running Scryb Ranger, I'll have to test it out to see if it deserve a place in over some of those guys.

about river boa, same thing as above, about selkie i prefer orhan viper as it kills anything and make us draw as well and you dont have to rely on blue only + 3 thoughness

- I over evaluated "Dredge" for this tournament dedicating 4 sideboard slot for nothing. I would have play 1 more Krosan Grip for sure.

- I did like the inclusion of 3x Fetch Lands. I like to shuffle a lot!!

no stilfe?

- Allmighty Choke was a bate most of the time for N.O.!! Love it!

- Trinisphere (1x to 4x), Garruk (1x to 3x), Cold-Eye Selkie (3x) and River Boa (1x to 4x) were the cards I sideboarded the most during the day. Everything else remained untouched main deck. I've sideboarded in 4x Choke + 4x trap + 1x Progenitus in a couple of time... So must of the time Trinisphere was the first to get cut out.

don't you like snakeform? damn i love that card a lot, the perfect trap !

That's about it for my point of view!!!

Play the deck!!

i ll run my list this week end for a 32 guys tour unless i chose my Imperial painter. so i ll certainly give a report soon


list :
//creatures
[2x] Llanowar Elves (wont recieve the noble soon enough)
[2x] Fyndhorn Elves
[4x] Tarmogoyf
[3x] Wickerbough Elder (meta full of shits ^^)
[2x] Orhan Viper (not sure if i go 3/2 or 2/3 with this & Elder)
[4x] Elvish Spirit Guide
[3x] Scryb Ranger
//spells
[4x] Natural Order
[4x] Chalice of the Void
[4x] Trinisphere
[4x] Elvish Spirit Guide
[3x] Scryb Ranger
[3x] Garruk Wildspeaker
[3x] Umezawa's Jitte
[1x] Progenitus
//Land
[13x] Forest or [10x] Forest [3x] Misty Rainforest
[4x] Ancient Tomb
[4x] Wasteland
//sb
[4x] Choke
[3x] Relic
[3x] Krosan
[3x] Snakeform
[2x] SoFI (or Creature Trap if i get them soon enough)

[elgoff]

ryO!--> you have to play 1x Dryad Arbor it's such a good sacrifice outlet for N.O. and with your 3x Fetch Land, it's like running 4 copies...

I really like your comments on Scryb Ranger, I'll be looking into it!!

[ryO!]

ryO!--> you have to play 1x Dryad Arbor it's such a good sacrifice outlet for N.O. and with your 3x Fetch Land, it's like running 4 copies...

I really like your comments on Scryb Ranger, I'll be looking into it!!

yeah you are right about dryad the thing i dont like about it is you never want to see it in your first hand else u have to mulligan. i might give it a try though i ll see how it goes like this on saturday.

[jazzykat]

Dryad Arbor is total trash in your opening hand, the problem with playing it IMO is that while you gain a creature to sac for NO, you expose your manabase to disruption. Now you have 2 cards that are pretty much auto mulligans progenitus and dryad arbor.

I built a version of the deck a few pages back that eschewed a bit of flexibility (no fetches, no arbor) for the ultimate in manabase stability. My testing on MWS showed that this deck was super solid but some opening hands were totally lackluster.

I went the Icestorm route which punished Tier decks with tightly tuned manabases and seemed to be utter garbage against johnny random decks.

I didn't play Selkie because Hollywood called her underwhelming and I took his word for it. I found Scryb Ranger to be incredible in testing and the havoc it caused with jitte more than made up for drawing a card if the opponent had islands and let it stick around. The mana production ability for Ranger also came into play much more than I thought it would because it gave you the second green mana on turn 3/4 when it didn't always materialize so you could play your NO or Garruk.

To be fair I never tried the fetches and they may thin the deck just enough to stop the floods I experienced.

One thing that I never tried was sneaking in a couple of Pendlhavens. With 4 mana elves, 3-4 scryb rangers, and 1 arbor you could potentially take advantage of the pump. Again, is it worth giving your opponents more wasteland targets I'm not sure.

I eventually abandoned playing the deck as the lack of library manipulation frustrated me too much, and the ocaisonal drawing X forests in a row made me mad. That said perhaps I played the deck too conservatively and needed to make it more agressive.

[Nelis]

I eventually abandoned playing the deck as the lack of library manipulation frustrated me too much, and the occasional drawing X forests in a row made me mad.

No experience with this deck whatsoever but has Sylvan Library (combined w fetch) not a place in this deck if that's a big problem?

[ryO!]

No experience with this deck whatsoever but has Sylvan Library (combined w fetch) not a place in this deck if that's a big problem?

well instead of what?
maybe 4 fetch woudnt hurt
i mean not every deck plays 4 stifle and as the deck got 21 lands it might help
or to keep with the aggro agressive thing what about sofi? pump+protect+draw engine.
with smth like this
back to 20 land
+2 sofi
-1 NO
-1 land

just a thought ...

[jazzykat]

No experience with this deck whatsoever but has Sylvan Library (combined w fetch) not a place in this deck if that's a big problem?

I think it is plausible but you do take damage from tombs, and would take more from fetches. The difference between this deck and zoo is that drawing an extra card with zoo (like a bolt and a fireblast) can end the game this turn. Since this deck kills ONLY with creatures drawing an extra card puts your life lower and doesn't let you capitalize on it until a turn later. Either way you are one turn faster but in the case of zoo they are dead immediately, whereas with MGCA they are dead next turn.

Regarding SoFI: I'm not sure if it's the way to go but putting one on a scryb ranger or an islandwalker (with someone packing islands) is beyond a beating.

[ryO!]

I think it is plausible but you do take damage from tombs, and would take more from fetches. The difference between this deck and zoo is that drawing an extra card with zoo (like a bolt and a fireblast) can end the game this turn. Since this deck kills ONLY with creatures drawing an extra card puts your life lower and doesn't let you capitalize on it until a turn later. Either way you are one turn faster but in the case of zoo they are dead immediately, whereas with MGCA they are dead next turn.

Regarding SoFI: I'm not sure if it's the way to go but putting one on a scryb ranger or an islandwalker (with someone packing islands) is beyond a beating.

well yes but still makes us draw and more relevant that the library, + not everyone plays blue + red protection (zoo/gob/burn/canadian!)
well as i said that's only a thought i have to test it