[EDH] 5c Cromat (Pet name: F*** you Basics)

[The Professor]

I must say, I simply wanted to make a 5c EDH deck, and the other WUBRG Generals didn't fit quite right (maybe Progenitus, but eh, Cromat seems a bit more fun).

This is basically a hodgepodge of quality cards. No theme except card quality and running the rainbow. I also love Planeswalkers (and their ability to "get around" sweepers). This is also a slower format AND one that warrants that you play what you think is fun. I think Planeswalkers are fun, as well as extremely powerful :)

Give me your thoughts:

(1) General:

Cromat

(7) Immediate Threats:

Akroma, Angel of Wrath
Bringer of the Red Dawn
Bringer of the Black Dawn
Ethersworn Adjudicator
Maelstrom Archangel
Bringer of the Blue Dawn

(3) Creature Tech:

Eternal Witness
Arcanis the Omnipotent
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir


(8) Planeswalkers:

Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Sarkhon Vol
Lilianna Vess
Garruk Wildspeaker
Jace Beleren
Chandra Nalaar
Ajani Vengeant
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker


(2) Permanent Tech:

Future Sight
Maelstrom Nexus


(5) Spell Tech:

Cruel Ultimatum
Profane Command
Bant Charm
Esper Charm
Time Warp


(7) Spot Removal:

Maelstrom Pulse
Vindicate
Path to Exile
Bituminous Blast
Chainer’s Edict
Swords to Plowshares
Putrefy


(7) Sweepers:

Wrath of God
Engineered Explosives
Damnation
Decree of Pain
Pernicious Deed
Nevinyrral’s Disk
Akroma's Vengeance


(12) Diggers/Tutors/Card Draw/Recursion:

Brainstorm
Ponder
Mystical Tutor
Impulse
Wargate
Demonic Tutor
Regrowth
Fact or Fiction
Enlightened Tutor
Sensei’s Divining Top
Mind’s Eye
Vampiric Tutor


(9) Mana Fixers:

Prismatic Omen
Darksteel Ingot
Coalition Relic
Gilded Lotus
Mana Vault
Shard Convergence
Spectral Searchlight
Fellwar Stone
Sol Ring


Land (40):

Underground Sea
Tundra
Tropical Island
Volcanic Island
Savannah
Taiga
Plateau
Scrubland
Bayou
Badlands

Flooded Strand
Wooded Foothills
Polluted Delta
Bloodstained Mire
Windswept Heath

Breeding Pool
Godless Shrine
Hallowed Fountain
Sacred Foundry
Steam Vents
Stomping Ground
Temple Garden
Blood Crypt
Overgrown Tomb
Watery Grave

Exotic Orchard
Reflecting Pool
Gemstone Mine
Tendo Ice Bridge
City of Brass
Undiscovered Paradise
Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
Eiganjo Castle
Minamo, School at Water's Edge
Shinka, the Bloodsoaked Keep
Shizo, Death's Storehouse
Grand Coliseum
Horizon Canopy
Tolaria West
Yavimaya Hollow


I didn't run Goldmane or Tezz, as it just didn't seem like it made too much sense for either (not artifact or creature heavy). I must say I love the mana base.

Anyway. I'm new to this format, but my local card-shop owner said I had the cards for it, so I threw this together. I'd love to hear some thoughts. Thanks all.

[frogboy]

I'm pretty unimpressed with creatures in formats like these. They're usually pretty irrelevant, and if they aren't, they are instantly killed.

Play some Ravnica Karoos, e.g. Dimir Aqueduct.

Is the lack of permission a conscious choice?

I also think you need way more card draw.

[The Professor]

Yeah, I thought that the # of creatures was low already, and I allotted the slots to either creatures with strong abilities in this format or simply face-kickers.

By permission I assume you mean counterspells, and if that's the case then I'd have to go muuuuch deeper into blue, which is always fine with me, but sort of defeats the purpose of Rainbow.

Can you elaborate on card-draw choices beyond the 13+ I have (including the charms and the hotty Jace)?

[frogboy]

Jace is actually pretty loose when +2 is basically giving away three cards instead of one.

My card draw and tutors in my five color list is

Ancestral Visions
Sensei's Divining Top
Impulse
Night's Whisper
Fact or Fiction
Skeletal Scrying
Opportunity

Mystical Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Demonic Tutor
Merchant Scroll
Tainted Pact
Intuition
Trinket Mage
Mystical Teachings
Conflux

plus All Sun's Dawn to reload. And a Loam engine.

You don't actually need creatures. Your General is always in your hand. Every time they kill or counter it you go up a card.

edit: also have Mind's Eye, but it's in the 'retarded bomb' category, not 'card draw'

[The Professor]

I do run Mind's Eye.


If I dropped the creatures, I would keep the following from your suggestions:

Merchant Scroll
Opportunity
Conflux
Ancestral Visions
Intuition
Crop Rotation
All Suns Dawn
Life from the Loam

I would also plug in

Wasteland
Strip Mine


I like Loam and its tools, but I don't want to go too far into its engine, as, again, the Rainbow might be a tad harder to reach.

I had many of those cards in the deck already, but simply over the mulling process they've been cut. The creatures always did feel a bit awkward, but do you think that I'll have enough win conditions with my Planeswalkers and General alone?

[frogboy]

My deck has Horde of Notions and sometimes Ajani Vengeant to kill people. I am x-0-1 in multiplayer. The only deck I lose to heads up is a draw-go Vendilion Clique deck I built.

(Technically, Glen Elendra Archmage, Venser, and Trinket Mage can win games, but, in practice, etc.)

[The Professor]

Would you mind posting a decklist?

[frogboy]

General: Horde of Notions

Miscalculation
Counterspell
Mana Drain
Remand
Negate
Dissipate
Faerie Trickery
Forbid
Hinder
Soul Manipulation
Dismiss
Cryptic Command
Glen Elendra Archmage
Traumatic Visions
Force of Will
Desertion

Ancestral Visions
Sensei's Divining Top
Impulse
Night's Whisper
Fact or Fiction
Careful Consideration
Opportunity

Mystical Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Demonic Tutor
Merchant Scroll
Tainted Pact
Intuition
Trinket Mage
Mystical Teachings
Conflux

Tormod's Crypt
Executioner's Capsule
Swords to Plowshares
Path to Exile
Cremate
Shriekmaw
Putrefy
Mortify
Bant Charm
Krosan Grip
Dismantling Blow
Ajani Vengeant
Venser, Shaper Savant
Rout
Treachery

Life from the Loam
Mind Twist
Detritivore
Future Sight
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
Vendilion Clique
All Sun's Dawn
Pulse of the Fields

Mana Crypt
Sol Ring
Talisman of Dominance
Talisman of Progress
Fellwar Stone
Dimir Signet
Azorius Signet
Academy Ruins
Dust Bowl
Strip Mine
Wasteland
Riptide Laboratory
Underground Sea
Tundra
Tropical Island
Volcanic Island
Savannah
Bayou
Scrubland
Windswept Heath
Polluted Delta
Flooded Strand
Bloodstained Mire
Wooded Foothills
Secluded Steppe
Tranquil Thicket
Forgotten Cave
Lonely Sandbar
Barren Moor
Simic Growth Chamber
Dimir Aqueduct
Azorius Chancery
Golgari Rot Farm
Arcane Sanctum
Crumbling Necropolis
Seaside Citadel
Rupture Spire
Vivid Creek
Krosan Verge
Minamo, School at Water's Edge
Snow-covered Island
Island
Swamp
Plains
Forest

More or less. Careful got cut for Scrying. Soul Manipulation and Dismantling Blow have been cut. Mind's Eye is in there obviously. Austere Command goes in and out. Shriekmaw also got +b

[The Professor]

(1) General:

Cromat


(4) Creature Tech:

Maelstrom Archangel
Eternal Witness
Arcanis the Omnipotent
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
Venser, Shaper Savant


(8) Planeswalkers:

Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Sarkhon Vol
Lilianna Vess
Garruk Wildspeaker
Jace Beleren
Chandra Nalaar
Ajani Vengeant
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker


(2) Permanent Tech:

Future Sight
Maelstrom Nexus


(5) Spell Tech:

Cruel Ultimatum
Profane Command
Bant Charm
Esper Charm
Time Warp


(7) Spot Removal:

Maelstrom Pulse
Vindicate
Path to Exile
Bituminous Blast
Chainer’s Edict
Swords to Plowshares
Putrefy


(7) Sweepers:

Wrath of God
Engineered Explosives
Pernicious Deed
Nevinyrral’s Disk
Damnation
Decree of Pain
Akroma's Vengeance



(17) Diggers/Tutors/Card Draw/Recursion:

Ancestral Vision
Brainstorm
Ponder
Mystical Tutor
Impulse
Wargate
Demonic Tutor
Regrowth
Fact or Fiction
Enlightened Tutor
Sensei’s Divining Top
Mind’s Eye
Vampiric Tutor
Brilliant Ultimatum
Conflux
All Suns Dawn
Opportunity


(9) Mana Fixers:

Prismatic Omen
Darksteel Ingot
Coalition Relic
Gilded Lotus
Mana Vault
Shard Convergence
Spectral Searchlight
Fellwar Stone
Sol Ring


Land (40):

Underground Sea
Tundra
Savannah
Taiga
Plateau
Scrubland
Bayou
Flooded Strand
Wooded Foothills
Polluted Delta
Bloodstained Mire
Windswept Heath
Exotic Orchard
Reflecting Pool
Temple Garden
Mystic Gate (Volcanic Island)
Fetid Heath (Tropical Island)
Cascade Bluff
Flooded Grove
Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
Eiganjo Castle
Minamo, School at Water's Edge
Shinka, the Bloodsoaked Keep
Shizo, Death's Storehouse
Tendo Ice Bridge
Gemstone Mine
Grand Coliseum
Undiscovered Paradise
Horizon Canopy
Tolaria West
City of Brass
Watery Grave
Overgrown Tomb
Blood Crypt
Breeding Pool
Godless Shrine
Hallowed Fountain
Sacred Foundry
Steam Vents
Stomping Ground





New list above.

I found the Loam Engine a bit clunky in this, as I was always wanting to cast a bomb or dig/tutor and not necessarily disrupt mana bases and lose my draws. I may go back to it, but this deck already has a ton going on without a Loam engine, too (like I said, we'll see how she runs).

The Ravnica lands don't seem that good to me. I think I'd rather run Vivids or the new 3c CiPT Lands, but the only lands I'd consider dropping are the BoK Legendary pumper ones. Shock lands are just better (especially with Fetches).

The Planeswalkers have been nuts, and I think Maelstrom Nexus is my favorite card to see. I did keep a few creatures in the deck (as did you), but they are quite powerful. I like the inclusion of Venser, as he can get rid of other crap, "counter," and save my Planeswalkers.

[frogboy]

The Karoos are actively insane. They're basically lands that come into play tapped, except when they come into play, you draw another land.

The only Kamigawa lands I like are Minamo and Shizo, and I don't think I ever activate them; mostly they turn on Tainted Pact.

Brilliant Ultimatum doesn't seem powerful enough, and I dunno how good your mana is; you can't just throw in all the duals and make it work, trust me.

[The Professor]

Can you be a bit more specific about my mana base, then?

Unless there's serious land hate, I can't think of a better option than fetching for the land type you need then and now. One dual and a fetch = immediate access to 4 colors with no tempo loss. Also, in the same scenario, the Ravnica "duals" you suggested would be horrible if there was, as stated, land hate. You're the only person I've seen advocate for the Ravnica lands and say that duals are not the best option for 5c EDH. I've gleaned from a ludicrous amount of decklists and have seen only two other people use those CiPT lands you like.

Again, I can see adding them in over a few of the Legendary Lands, no prob, but, again I ask if you could expand on the "I dunno how good your mana is" when I'm playing 90% of the best lands the game has to offer.

Beyond duals, I have plenty of rainbow producers:

Exotic Orchard
Reflecting Pool
Tendo Ice Bridge
Gemstone Mine
Grand Coliseum
Undiscovered Paradise

let alone the number of land (color) fixers:

Prismatic Omen
Darksteel Ingot
Coalition Relic
Gilded Lotus
Shard Convergence
Spectral Searchlight
Fellwar Stone

let alone the number of diggers that I can utilize to fix the mana even more.

I can see adding a few more rainbow producers, namely:

Crystal Quarry
Mirrodin's Core
Pillar of Paruns
Tarnished Citadel


I understand this is a sllloooowww format, but you have (if I counted right) 11 "comes into play" tapped lands, and a great deal of lands that only produce one color. I'd much much rather have more duals and less tempo loss than cyclers and a Loam Engine in a 5c deck. You may be able to afford it because you're running the gamut of counterspells and are deep in blue, but I'm further into the rainbow than you and need my lands to work a bit harder.

[AngryTroll]

The Karoo lands are pretty good. I run Cromat as my general, but a list much closer to Frogboy's (blue's the main color, with a bunch of counterspells and card advantage spells). You shouldn't run all of the Karoo lands, but running a couple of them is solid. For my list, the only ones I'd consider are the four blue ones, and I probably wouldn't run all of them. It really hurts to have one Wasted or even Wiped Away early; I probably should run two or three of them.

My manabase is something like:

5 Fetches
2 U Mirage fetches
3 U Panorama Fetches
4 Blue Duals
4 Ravnica Blue Duals
5 Basics
5 Snow Covered Basics
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Rupture Spire
1 City of Brass
1 Wasteland
1 Dust Bowl
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Kor Haven
1 Barren Moor
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Secluded Steppe

In addition to land, I run the UW and UB Talisman, the UR and UG Signets, Sol Ring, and Darksteel Ingot.

I'll probably cut a Mountain and a Flagstones for the UB and UW Ravnica Karoo Lands; I also want to fit in a Reliquary Tower.

I don't think Frogboy was saying your manabase was bad, just that they are surprisingly tricky to balance and make functional.

[The Professor]

Yeah 5c is always a tricky beast. I'll give a few of those Karoo lands a go (P.S., why are they called Karoo lands?).

Edit: Nevermind. Looked it up. God Karoo is a bad card.

[AngryTroll]

Yeah 5c is always a tricky beast. I'll give a few of those Karoo lands a go (P.S., why are they called Karoo lands?).

As Frogboy said, dropping a Karoo land last is awesome. Sure, it comes into play tapped, but you just guaranteed making your next land drop, and they help fix colors while they are at it.

On the other hand, if you run too many, hands with two of them are pretty awkward. And getting one Wastelanded is devastating early.

[frogboy]

"I dunno how good your mana is" when I'm playing 90% of the best lands the game has to offer.

If your deck is five colors but most of your spells are blue, your mana should reflect that. Just automatically playing all the dual lands will give you too many sources of tertiary colors. For example, I don't play Badlands or Plateau. I am way too lazy to list your spells by color and look at your mana accordingly, but a glance looked like you just threw dual lands at the problem and hoped it went away. Also, Shard Convergence costs four; at four mana, you should play your spells, not Time Walk yourself to maybe start playing them next turn. Tendo Ice Bridge is worse than the vivid lands, too. Most of the Legendary lands are fancy basics. The only one that gains you cool points is Tolaria. Take that, banding!


I understand this is a sllloooowww format, but you have (if I counted right) 11 "comes into play" tapped lands, and a great deal of lands that only produce one color. I'd much much rather have more duals and less tempo loss than cyclers and a Loam Engine in a 5c deck.

You start at forty. If you can't beat an aggro deck, you're doing it wrong. The karoos fix your mana and get your land drops in control mirrors. My mana isn't perfect but it's functional. Sometimes you open on Forest, Barren Moor, Wasteland, but it's not like you don't get a free mulligan.

[The Professor]

Unless I counted wrong, here's the count (including multi or WUBRG spells):

White = 16
Blue = 20
Black = 19
Red = 8
Green = 14
Artifact = 11

I'm not incrementally deeper into blue by any means (except 2 spells that require UUU), and the fetches basically ensure I get what I need at the moment (which is often blue, sure). The only filter lands I run are the blue ones, which make basically any sources into double blue. Beyond that, the mana fixers and digging/draw basically ensure I'm pretty set.

In all my playtesting (I've been at it pretty hardcore in lieu of this Thursday's tournament), I've had no mana trouble whatsoever. None. Even against Wasteland/Dust Bowl/Strip Mine + Loam. Will it happen eventually? Yup, but that's ok, since I know it's darn-near as good as it's going to get for 5c.

I keep having to reiterate, though, that I am going to add the Karoo lands (my local cardshop doesn't have them, though). I'll probably just add the ones that add blue and call it good. I stopped hating against them a while ago.

When all is said and done, 21+ of 40 my lands alone will produce blue, let alone the artifacts (closer to 28 with those). As of right now, I have 21+ sources (as stated, with artifacts and the like) that produce blue. That's definitely representing the color.

I agree about the Tendo vs. Vivid argument (for this deck, anyway).

Also, Shard Convergence + oldschool Duals and Ravnica duals = retarded good, as their type obviously includes swamp, plains, etc. For four mana, you just landed every color (including double, triple, or quads of colors if needed) and thinned the deck for better shit. For someone who is concerned about my mana base, there isn't much of a better fixer out there! Many EDH players run Kodama's Reach or Reap and Sow. F*** that! Shard Convergence is nuts x 1,000,000 in 5c, especially with Duals.

Thanks for the comments; you guys are keeping me on my toes. I didn't just throw duals at this; I wanted to play 5c in a fun format (since I can't do it anywhere else but shitty Standard) and Duals/Fetches seem the obvious route to take; I promise I'm not just a Spike :)

[frogboy]

Many EDH players run Kodama's Reach or Reap and Sow.

Many EDH players play nonblue Generals :B

[The Professor]

Cromat's offically blue, haha.