[Legacy] Mono White Control

[4eak]

I'm posting here in the Casual forum because of a bias; I really enjoy playing one specific flavor of MWC. I don't consider my flavor of choice to be the best, so I think my post belongs here.

I consider Quinn the overall best MWC deck available in Legacy, which effectively abuses the Parfait silver-bullet strategy. It has an acceptable game against combo (not an easy task for Mono white), and keeps a powerful, tutorable arsenal to answer a variety of other decks. I'm not going to be playing Quinn anymore though. I don't own a Moat, and so I really can't viably play E-tutor based Heavy white control decks in non-proxy settings anyways. More importantly, I just don't enjoy the combo-esque feel of the silver-bullet control strategy (or Painter), which banks a huge amount of resources on an unanswered permanent (Moat/Scepter/etc.). In a hardcore control deck, I very much prefer role redundancy and ramping up small advantages instead of card disadvantageous silverbullets and the sacrifices made to play certain tempo cards.

I'm always interested in winning, but at this point, I want to win while playing a deck/role I really enjoy a ton. I enjoy playing a nearly permanent-less control deck, and I like long, bliss-filled games whereby I win many small battles over time, accumulating incremental advantage which form a tidal wave that can't be stopped. I also enjoy Draw-Go, Stasis, and long walks on the beach (you get the point).

After having thought about the "Ban Tendrils?" thread, I came to the conclusion that perhaps it is worth just throwing the combo match and enjoying the sweet, luscious goodness of MWC that doesn't bend over backwards to answer combo.

Deck Requirements:


A pure control deck playing only White cards.
Runs as few permanents as necessary.
Is not a silver-bullet or combo deck itself.
Doesn't have to win 2 out of 3 games in 50 minutes, but it would be nice.
Does not answer combo in the main (sideboard is fine). I'm perfectly happy throwing the match.


The list I've been using so far:

1 for 1's: 8
4 StP
4 Path to Exile (if you can avoid using this before turn 3, the card's drawback is barely noticeable)

Bait and Clear: 12
4 Pulse of the Fields (3 is acceptable, but the card makes Wrath/AVeng way stronger. It is a white timewalk.)
4 Wrath of God
4 Akroma's Vengeance

CA generating, difficult to answer wincons: 10
4 Eternal Dragon
4 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth (Has tested very well in this deck, dodges AVeng too--goes "ultimate" all the time)

Random: 5
1 Ray of Distortion (I've not been happy with multiples, but it is necessary against Chalice/CB)
4 SDT

Land: 25
4 Scrying Sheets
1 Thawing Glaciers (2 is the max worth running, nice for shuffle and as the 5th Sheets)
20 Snow-Covered Plains

The deck very rarely mulligans (which I love), and it has lots of ways to generate card advantage. I really enjoy stalling with Pulse, forcing my opponent to overextend, and clearing the board. I'm glad that I don't give 2-shits about whether or not my opponent has K-Grip.

Chalice and CB are probably the most devastating cards (besides combo) to play against. AVeng and Ray go a long way, but I'm hoping someone else can provide a better answer. Abolish also wasn't so amazing (I almost always hardcasted it anyways).

I've tested Orim's Chant extensively, and frankly, without Scepter or vital 1-of's I must protect from countermagic, Chant is lackluster.

I'm looking for decklists, advice, thoughts, ideas, and/or criticisms. I enjoy testing (you know, playing magic), so feel free to throw out a suggest (even if it is quirky).





peace,
4eak

[Silent Requiem]

Frankly, I think what you are looking for is a Solitary Confinement build of some kind. It is all your silver bullets in one card. The only trouble is, you need a draw engine of some kind, and it has to be reuseable, because MWC does not win fast.

Heck, you could just use Squee + Solitary Confinement to deck your opponent if they have no answers.

Btw, I would love to play a creatureless MWC deck in legacy... like my old Parfait deck from Vintage. So good luck!

-Silent Requiem

[Tea]

What’s the problem with multiple ray of distortion? One ray of distortion looks a bit random. Can you reliably find it through SDT? Another card which can be dealt with by ray of distortion is sylvan library. This card could be dangerous, as it may shut down pulse of the fields.
You are running a lot of expensive cards, so you can’t afford loosing a land (scrying sheets) to wasteland, can’t you? I think you don’t want to play scrying sheets before having stabilized, so maybe…upping the snow-covered plain count?

[Elfrago]

What about Oblivion ring instead of Ray? It's never a dead card so you could paly more than one.

[Tea]

Oblivion ring does not work with Akroma's Vengeance

[Tacosnape]

This sort of looks like a really rogue deck I used to run called Big White. The only differences:

1. It ran Chalice of the Void, because it had nothing that cost 2 or 3. (Pulse was in the sideboard). Nowadays I probably wouldn't do this.

2. It ran a couple of fetchlands, one of each white Dual (Fetchable off of Dragon), and the incredibly versatile Engineered Explosives. This worked out remarkably well for me.

[sauce]

so you just pack it up to combo?

[4eak]

@ Silent Requiem

Solitary Confinement really does not meet the deck requirements. I would much rather play Quinn, and Moat/Runed Halo/Humility/etc., because you still get to draw cards.

@ Tea

I went down to 1 Ray from 2. The idea was that I wanted to supplement Akroma's Vengeance, specifically against CB and Chalice. Originally, I was running 2 Disks, then I tried 2 Abolish, then I decided that Ray was generally the best because it dodged CB, and it had roughly the same cost (I almost always hardcasted the Abolish anyways). The Flashback has been pretty awesome. I don't have to SDT for Ray because Vengeance can do the same thing, but you'd be surprised how effective the deck can be at digging. You are right though, I'm not finding DE effects early enough against Chalice and CB, and if they cut off my SDT path (easy enough for either hate card), then I really need to rely more heavily upon redundancy, especially since it is so necessary to open up the 1cc slot for my targeted removal.

My problem is that Ray is a very specific and yet fairly costly card. Sometimes I don't want too many multiples of the effect. The nice part about Flashback is that in games where I don't need Disenchant, then I've only soaked up 1 slot for it, while in games where I need it, it counts for 2 (albeit, not for the odds of drawing). It looks random, but you're going to see draw half your deck (or more) every game, and you'll generally see almost all of it with top+shuffle. I might just have to goto 2 on the Ray because the slot must be able to answer both CB and Chalice. I do wish I could run Krosan Grip! 2 Savannah's wouldn't kill me.

Sylvan library is rarely an issue. Nobody plays goyf-sligh/library that I see (zoo is the evolved version of that deck), and against Enchantress (nearly a combo deck), Akroma's Vengeance is way more dangerous (need multiples to answer Replenish). Pulse of the Fields isn't in the deck against decks which play Sylvan Library anyways.

As for Wasteland, and most of the decks that play it, I think 20 basics + Eternal Dragon + SDT + 8 1cc removal spells + Pulsing at 3 lands give a solid early game. Like MUC, playing 20 raw basics (in addition tutors/draw and 5 other lands) makes the mana base extremely stable.

I actually look at Scrying Sheets/Thawing Glaciers as being part of the route to the point of stabilization. I define stabilization as the point at which there are no relevant threats (on the board) and you have relevant (virtual) card parity with or advantage over your opponent. Note that stabilization and switching to the aggro role are very different. The point of stabilization is very early for this control deck, but the point at which you choose to win the game is extremely late. It stabilizes early in part because of its focus on board control (whereby decks that it could possibly stabilize against it will do so effectively), in part because its Pulse+mass removal trap often creates card advantage, also because there are rarely dead cards (against creature-based decks) which means minimal virtual card disadvantage (besides diminishing returns on multiples in some circumstances), and lastly because the Land-based draw engine produces raw card advantage, often starting on turn 3.

@ Elfrago

As Tea explain, AVeng hits O-ring. That isn't the only thing I have against the card though. While I admire its casting cost, I supremely dislike its temporary effect in the face of opposing enchantment removal. O-ring is a versatile tempo card (akin to Sower). I'm moving away from permanent based control in part because Grip, Deed, EE(+Ruins), Pridemage are serious pains in the butt. O-ring is a temporary solution against most decks, and this deck doesn't win quickly. Removal needs to be truer removal if you move away from permanent based control strategies (just as MUC needs larger amounts of Counters the further it moves towards Draw-Go from the Permanent-based version of the deck).

@ Tacosnape

I actually tried the EE out. I started adding things like Ruins, and then I asked myself, if I'm going to splash, then why not play Landstill?

@ sauce


so you just pack it up to combo?

Yes.

My opening post said something to that effect. If you didn't read the opener, I'm not sure you'll listen to my reasoning. Read here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13874&highlight=Ban+tendrils) first. I think Tendrils is the natural predator to decks like Mono White control, and perhaps MWC should just embrace that fate. In order to have a shot against Tendrils, you not only have to pack a lot of answers for it, but you end up changing the rest of the deck to being more silver-bullet style simply because you don't have the space (which is used up by combo hate) to play a more redundant control deck. While Quinn does an admirable job at answering combo (and attempts to play combo itself to have an honest clock), I still find that talented combo players which have more experience against Quinn are more prepared for the control and wincon elements they will face and will not be caught off card nearly as much by Runed Halo, well timed Chants/Abeyances, or the speed with which Quinn can assemble the Painter combo.

Mind you, I have pulsed on barely lethal Tendrils to fizzle them. Opposing Duress/Chants usually make that impossible though.

I don't care for the silverbullet permanant-based strategy or bending over backwards to answer combo. A control deck doesn't need to answer the entire metagame in its main to be effective.

In fact, I think Runed Halo, Chant, and Abeyance are so modular in their degrees of effectiveness and their value is so reliant upon knowledge of your opponents' deckchoices that these cards are MUCH stronger as sideboard cards. If I open a hand with chant in game 1, I'm really unsure how useful that chant will be (which is not something I enjoy while playing a control deck).

Making a board might help some (not enough imho):

4 Chant
2 Abeyance
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Prog
2 Runed Halo
3 Chalice (StP/PtE have no use anyways)

Play the hate you are dealt (I realize CotV@1 conflicts with SDT and Chant, but it pwns Storm.dec).




peace,
4eak

[Cyrus]

I don`t know, 10 wincons feel like too much. But I didn`t test it yet, so I don`t know. Ah, and about the storm combo matchup, if you are running CotV and dont want to have a dead chant in your hand, you can just set it at 0, hitting petal, led and such.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

One thought is to run an updated Rabid Wombat, cantrip-based card selection;

19x SC Plains
4x Secluded Steppe

4x Eternal Dragon
4x Decree of Justice

4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Condemn
3x Wing Shards
4x Wrath of God
2x Akroma's Vengeance

4x Renewed Faith
4x Festival of the Guildpact
3x Relic of Progenitus


But this might be inferior to the Scrying Sheets-Top engine (I think it probably is, in fact).

Rabid Quinn (or Mighty Wombat) would look something like;

19x SC Plains
4x Scrying Sheets
2x Mouth of Ronom

4x Eternal Dragon
3x Decree of Justice

4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Condemn
4x Wing Shards
4x Wrath of God
3x Planar Cleansing

4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Pulse of the Fields
2x Ray of Distortion

You might also want to fit Shining Shoal in the last build somewhere.

I would use Condemn over Path to Exile because the situations where you care about non-attackers are rare enough that StP should cover it. I would use Planar Cleansing over Vengeance in the last build since it reduces your vulnerability to Planewalkers, and the cycling isn't enough of a draw.

Alternately, if you want to run a build with O-Ring and stuff, you could always use Austere Command in that slot.

[Tea]

Oblivion ring
O-ring is only a temporary solution, but does it matter? Later on you have board-sweepers and they destroy just everything. In the lategame you can even ignore Counterbalance, because all of your cards, except the spotremoval, avoids counterbalance/chalice.

[4eak]

@ TheInfamousBearAssassin

I didn't even think of Planar Cleansing. It is true that this MWC deck has serious trouble against opposing Planewalkers. If you can't Legend rule it (with your own Elspeth), then you have to DoJ it out if you get lucky (rarely the case). I have to admit I don't find myself cycling Vengeance very often. Only when my hand is too clogged would I cycle them, but generally the total sweep is so powerful that I don't let them go (but rather extra Wraths or whatever). Losing Elspeth is my only concern. Elspeth stalls so amazingly, and it causes your opponent to scramble (instinctively) to answer it, and the ultimate ability has come up numerous times. I'll definitely have to test Planar Cleansing though.

I tested Mouths of Ronom and was not pleased. I'd rather just have the basics and tapping for white. 6 mana removal is expensive, and the non-basic aspect of the card is a strike against it. Ronom rarely can answer Goyf, and by the time it could answer weenies, I've already found other solutions (Pulse/WoG/Spot Removal).

Can you elaborate on the choice of Wing Shards? Chant->Shards sounds pretty good against a lot of decks, but I'm not seeing it here. Handling Goose has been a lesson common problem for me as of late. I guess I could see it against swarming tribal decks. Usually a deck like Goblins would have a stronger matchup than most would think against this sort of deck, but Pulse of the Fields has changed that matchup.

I tested Shoal for only 20 games, and I just didn't care for it. The tempo wasn't really that great for the cost.

After extensive testing of both Condemn and PtE, I will have to disagree with your assessment. PtE is far and away stronger than Condemn. I find myself removing creatures at many other steps of the game. Basic examples: I can PtE a Confidant before the first upkeep, and players that know I'm running Condemn would not even swing with a Confidant. Stopping Crusher from flipping cards into the GY can be very useful. PtE can be used in response to discard effects, Chalice or CB. There are tons of game states where PtE really outclasses Condemn. While I do love the opposing lifegain of Condemn (makes Pulse even better), I also value the RFG effect of PtE which puts ridiculous pressure on low-threat count decks, as they have to bend over backwards even further to guarantee they will have a way to win in the end. If used past the 3rd turn (or even just past the 1st turn), PtE's drawback is not as problematic as I thought it would be initially. While it is a form of card disadvantage directly, decks that have no way to harness large amounts of late game mana will have little use for the extra land.

@ Tea


O-ring is only a temporary solution, but does it matter?

Yes, it does. The longer a game will go, the less valuable you'll find temporary solutions. I really want opposing board control to be as useless as I can make it. Sweeping the board while O-ring is in play sucks too.

O-ring is extremely versatile and cheap to play. It is a strong card, and I will test it with Austere Command. Perhaps that will change my mind.





peace,
4eak

[Shimster]

I really like the 2nd version posted by IBA. Imo, you don't need 25 lands, but 2 Shining Shoal. Path to Exile is way better than Condemn (as 4eak has already pointed out) and even better than Wing Shards. Thus my list looks like this:

// Lands
19 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Scrying Sheets

// Spells
3 Decree of Justice
4 Eternal Dragon

4 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wing Shards

4 Wrath of God
3 Planar Cleansing

2 Shining Shoal
2 Ray of Distortion

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Pulse of the Fields