[EDH] Horde of Notions 5C Control

[AngryTroll]

Here's the list I've been running for a while now. We typically play in pods of three to five players around here, so it's set up for small multiplayer groups. With larger groups, it can have a hard time winning if it needs to deal with more than two or so opponents. I have small stack of cards I swap in for two player games if it's serious (Banefire, Mind Shatter, Ertai, etc).



--General--
Horde of Notions

--Land (41)--
1 Island
1 Snow Covered Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Snow Covered Swamp
1 Plains
1 Snow Covered Plains
1 Forest
1 Snow Covered Forest

1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain

1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs

1 Vivid Creek
1 City of Brass
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
1 Minamo, School at Water’s Edge
1 Dimir Aqueduct
1 Azorius Chancery
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Kor Haven
1 Wasteland
1 Dust Bowl
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Barren Moor

--Accel--
1 Sol Ring
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Rampant Growth
1 Farseek
1 Into the North
1 Sakura tribe Elder

--Countermagic--
1 Counterspell
1 Negate
1 Countersquall
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Faerie Trickery
1 Hinder
1 Dissipate
1 Bant Charm
1 Dismiss
1 Rewind
1 Desertion
1 Wild Ricochet

--Targeted Removal--
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
1 Condemn
1 Mortify
1 Putrefy
1 Control Magic
1 Treachery

--Mass Removal--
1 Wrath of God
1 Damnation
1 Hallowed Burial
1 Rout
1 Akroma’s Vengeance
1 Austere Command

--Utility--
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Orim’s Thunder
1 Shred Memory

--Card Advantage--
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Intuition
1 Mystical Teachings
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Opportunity
1 All Sun’s Dawn
1 Future Sight
1 Mind’s Eye
[/cards[\]
--Good Stuff--[cards]
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tainted Pact
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Regrowth
1 Life from the Loam
1 Mind Twist
1 Identity Crisis
1 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Decree of Justice

--Creatures--
1 Eternal Witness
1 Etched Oracle
1 Shriekmaw
1 Mulldrifter
1 Magister Sphinx


Cards that need to go in, as soon as I find them:
Vindicate
Maelstrom Pulse
Cryptic Command
Mana Drain

Cards from Zendikar that might make the cut:
Day of Judgement (the new Wrath)
Eternity Vessel
Sorin Markov

The deck usually ends up winning with Magister Sphinx, Cruel Ultimatum, and occasionally Horde beats. Horde is one of the best of the five color generals, and for a control deck, it should be either Horde or Child of Alara. Shriekmaw and Mulldrifter are pretty solid with Horde; a Crib Swap keeps not-quite-making the list.

I'm a firm believer in playing as many lands as possible. You really don't want to miss a land drop until you have five or six or seven lands in play.

This deck is pretty solid, but Gaddock Teag is a nightmare. Armageddon, Blood Moon, and Back to Basics randomly beat the deck as well. I like playing it, although some people don't like to see it-our store has a contingent of more casual players (including the owner) that frowns upon bringing decks like this to EDH, but it's pretty evenly split).

[MattH]

I don't get what's so great about Horde (in this deck) versus other 5c generals. Is it just Shriekmawing and Mulldrifting over and over and over?

[AngryTroll]

Well, the five color generals that you can use are:
Atogatog
Child of Alara
Cromat
Horde of Notions
Karona, False God
Progenitus
Reaper King
Scion of the Ur Dragon
Sliver Legion
Sliver Overlord
Sliver Queen

Of these, the best ones (without building a deck around them) are probably Child, Cromat, Horde, Progenitus, and Sliver Queen. I guess Progenitus is possible, but his mana cost is just terrible. Sliver Queen is a solid choice, and Cromat can do 21 Damage more easily than the other choices, but Horde's combination of Vigilance and Haste is what does it for me. Really, those two abilities are two of the best things I you can ask for out of a general.

Recurring Mulldrifter and Shriekmaw comes up once in a while, but those two are strong enough on their own to be in the deck (a little on the weak side, but they recur with Stronghold, so it's alright). With the green legendary land, Horde can do 21 once in a while.

Sliver Queen is probably the other one that I would consider...if the Sliver Deck has a foil one, I may pick it up. Would you play one of the others over Horde?

[MattH]

Ahhh it's just the least-worst of the options, I thought there was some combo I was missing (I'm considering putting together a Horde deck I can loan out, but it would be more silly and play around with the elemental ability, not just used for its colors). Thanks.

[Zach Tartell]

I feel like Mind's Eye and Future Sight are both terrible (as they fall into the "tap out for me early" bracket). Control Magic is pretty close to this too.

Also, No Krosan Grip?

Also, you seem to lack ways to deal with a resolved planeswalker.

[JeroenC]

How can you possibly feel Mind's Eye or Future Sight are terrible? They're both awesome cards that fit perfectly into a control deck. But obviously, you don't play them on turn 5.

[frogboy]

Haste is gas, so Horde is gas. Mind's Eye and Future Sight are pretty bad heads up but Eye is good in multiplayer. I obviously don't like Sphinx and would play my list.

[MattH]

Future Sight will probably not be at its best in a deck with this much countermagic. Mind's Eye is still awesome though.

[AngryTroll]

Mind's Eye is awesome in multiplayer, and pretty bad in heads up. I have a small pile of cards I swap in for heads up (Mind Shatter, Ertai, Wizard Adept, Banefire, etc), and I make that swap pretty easily. You never cast it with five lands in play...you drop it with seven or eight or more and go crazy.

Future Sight is solid. As stated, it's not amazing, but it flips land about 1/3 of the time, and flipping removal is also pretty solid. Even having a Counterspell sit there isn't terrible, because although everyone knows about it, they still have to deal with it, and it's typically pretty late in the game when I drop Future Sight.


Planeswalkers make me sad. Maelstrom Pulse and Vindicate are on the "Buy" list for that reason. I have a Planar Cleansing in the almost pile, but the :W::W::W: in the cost makes me hesitant to run it.

Krosan Grip is also in the maybe pile. It should be in there somewhere.

[Zach Tartell]

How do we feel about regrowth effects that aren't witness?

[Bryant Cook]

How do we feel about regrowth effects that aren't witness?

You know I'm right.

[94teen]

I've been building the same style of deck using Progenitus as a general recently, so I've got a few ideas.

You're playing 10 fetches, and probably should be played Krosan Verge, that makes Crucible of Worlds and Rings of Brighthearth awesome at accelerating/ensuring land drops.

Two spells that are fantastic in my build are Nostalgic Dreams and Last Stand. Dreams is essentially another All Suns' Dawn once you've resolved a draw spell or two, which shouldn't be difficult with the amount of countermagic you run. Last stand is more of a bomb than Cruel Ultimatum a lot of the time. Granted, I usually tutor up a Prismatic Omen beforehand, but even without that, it's pretty sweet.

[AngryTroll]

How do we feel about regrowth effects that aren't witness?

Regrowth itself is very solid. I end up winning with Cruel Ultimatum, Witness, and Regrowth a fair amount of the time. It's also CMC 2, which is solid with Muddle the Mixture (which is worth a slot as a tutor for Life from the Loam and Demonic Tutor anyways).

All Sun's Dawn is a huge bomb in 5 color. Five cc makes you compare it to Tidings, and it's much, much stronger in the late game (if not as impressive on turn five).


Two spells that are fantastic in my build are Nostalgic Dreams and Last Stand. Dreams is essentially another All Suns' Dawn once you've resolved a draw spell or two, which shouldn't be difficult with the amount of countermagic you run. Last stand is more of a bomb than Cruel Ultimatum a lot of the time. Granted, I usually tutor up a Prismatic Omen beforehand, but even without that, it's pretty sweet.

I tried Last Stand when I first build the deck, and I wasn't running nearly enough basic lands. Since then, though, I've added Rampant Growth and friends over the Signets and upped the basic land count, so I might try running it again. Nostalgic Dreams keeps ending up in my maybe pile. It's pretty amazing with Life from the Loam, but it seems lackluster without it. I ought to try running it again to see how often it's amazing and how often it's lackluster.

[Aggro_zombies]

I realized I forgot to mention this when I was there, but Armillary Sphere can be pretty good fixing.

[94teen]

Just in case, because it's a little unclear from your statement, Last Stand also counts your dual lands and shock lands. It's not looking for basic lands, just basic land types. That makes it absolutely broken with Prismatic Omen, which you may or may not want to run as fixing.

Have you thought of running Wargate/Reap and Sow rather than Rampant Growth and Signets? They let you tutor up specific fetches or duals to go with Rings/Crucible if you run those. Otherwise, they let you tutor up utility lands. For example, I run the dark depths/hexmage combo since I can recur both pieces and have countermagic to protect my graveyard. I've also got Valakut/Emeria to go with my Prismatic Omen. Korsan verge becomes pretty awesome when it becomes 2 land drops + Searing Winds.

Last random suggestion. A friend suggested that I try Quicken in the deck. I was a little skeptical at first, but it's absolutely absurd. Suddenly all of your best spells are instant speed. Forget end of turn Fact or Fiction, I want end of turn Cruel Ultimatum/Conflux/Violent Ultimatum/All Suns' Dawn.

I think the real difference is that your list has much more of an early game with counters and wraths, where I have more tutors, recursion, and bombs. I'll try to get around to posting a list sometime for comparison.

[Zach Tartell]

Disenchant Effects (4)

Orim's Thunder
Dismantling Blow
Fracturing Gust
Krosan Grip
(Nature's Claim should be here, but I need a foil before I'd play it)
(Putrefy, Bant Charm, and Vindicate count here too but aren't listed here)

Spot Removal (6)

Path to Exile
Swords to Plowshares
Bant Charm
Crib Swap
Putrefy
Vindicate

Card Draw (8)

Phyrexian Arena
Sensei's Diving Top
Mulldrifter
Fact or Fiction
Tidings
Etched Oracle
Sylvan Library
Opportunity
(you could count Loam/Cycler here but I don't feel like it matters)

Acceleration (6)

Nature's Lore
Farseek
Rampant Growth
Darksteel Ingot
Harrow
Kodama's Reach

Hand Control (3)

Identity Crisis
Mind Twist
Mind Shatter

Big Winners (5)

Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
Decree of Justice
Cruel Ultimatum
Magister Sphinx
Horde of Notions (General)

Board Wipers (7)

Akroma's Vengeance
Planar Cleansing
Austere Command
Wrath of God
Hallowed Burial
Oblivion Stone
Pernicious Deed

Tutors (4)

Mystical Teachings
Mystical Tutor
Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor

Utility (5)

Eternal Witness
Jund Charm
Naya Charm
Wild Ricochet
Life from the Loam

Counterspells (15)

Pact of Negaiton
Negate
Rewind
Mana Drain (it's real and you're jealous. Admit it.)
Desertion
Countersquall
Double Negative
Faerie Trickery
Hinder
Forbid
Dissipate
Counterspell
Voidslime
Dismiss
Logic Knot
(Bant Charm could be listed here but isn't counted)


Lands (37)



Brief thoughts:

Nature's Claim is on the add-for-sure list, but I'm not sure whether it should be added or replace a different Disenchant.
Should I add Sakura-Tribe Elder? I feel like one more acceleration spell would be pretty clutch.
I want to add Sorin Markov, but I don't have a foil and I'm not sure if I should cut Nicol Bolas for it (or Decree, 'cause Decree sucks a bunch).
I need help with my manabase. I'll ask for it later (dinner date).

[AngryTroll]

Spot Removal (6)

Path to Exile
Swords to Plowshares
Bant Charm
Crib Swap
Putrefy
Vindicate


Acceleration (6)

Nature's Lore
Farseek
Rampant Growth
Darksteel Ingot
Harrow
Kodama's Reach


Should I add Sakura-Tribe Elder? I feel like one more acceleration spell would be pretty clutch.
[/LIST]

I really like your list. I especially like your disenchant suite. And the Mana Drain.

I really wanted to say that Sakura Tribe Elder is better than Farseek, but without seeing your manabase, it may not be. Especially with Wild Ricochet and Cruel Ultimatum requiring RR, you may want to fetch a red source but not be able to with STE (Volcanic Island vs Mountain). STE is a much better topdeck (unless you're holding that Ultimatum hoping to find a red source to cast it). I've been running a single Mountain just to make a few cards like Rampant Growth better.

Also, where is Condemn? It doesn't hit some utility creatures, but it's one of the absolute best ways to nail Generals. I typically value Condemn much higher than Swords or Path.

[Zach Tartell]

Well, Don, that sets me up to talk about my manabase:

I'm currently running the following:

8 old duals (neither Plateau nor Badlands)
4 Blue Shocklands (the Rav duals)
4 Blue Fetches
Windswept Heath
9 Basics (2 of each save Mountain)
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
City of Brass
Volrath's Stronghold
Strip Mine (Should this be Dust Bowl?)
Calciform Pools
Lonely Sandbar
5 more lands


It's the "five more lands" that I'm worried about. These are my options (mostly pulled from the lands that I was playing before I got my playset of Collector's duals):

Rupture Spire
Terramorphic Expanse
Vivid Creek
Badlands
Plateau
Any of the non-blue shocklands
Nantuko Monastary (this was worthless the entire time I played it)
Mystic Gate
Sunken Ruins
Cascade Bluffs
Izzet Boilerworks
Dimir Aqueducts
More Basics (this would be probably just 1 Island, 1 Plains, 1 Forest)


I was happy with the manabase before my CE duals came in (though, to be fair, they're still in the mail - I'm just using slips of paper over cards right now), but they've changed everything. I feel like I might not need Urborg (although it's occasionally difficult to get BBB for Cruel Ultimatum, and is making me worry about whether I should try to cram Sorin in), but it's foil and that's honestly good enough for me. I've never run into a time when it's hurt (Angry Mob, for instance).

I'm trying to avoid any CIPT Lands, which makes me think that the full set of duals, a pair of basics, and... a specialty land? Dust Bowl? Kor Haven?


I really like your list. I especially like your disenchant suite. And the Mana Drain.

I really wanted to say that Sakura Tribe Elder is better than Farseek, but without seeing your manabase, it may not be. Especially with Wild Ricochet and Cruel Ultimatum requiring RR, you may want to fetch a red source but not be able to with STE (Volcanic Island vs Mountain). STE is a much better topdeck (unless you're holding that Ultimatum hoping to find a red source to cast it). I've been running a single Mountain just to make a few cards like Rampant Growth better.

Also, where is Condemn? It doesn't hit some utility creatures, but it's one of the absolute best ways to nail Generals. I typically value Condemn much higher than Swords or Path.

-Farseek is incredibly better than STE (insofar as it's able to get a Dual). I'd probably just cut Rampant Growth for STE if I decided that I don't have room for more acceleration.

-Condemn is mediocre. In my playgroup we only have three attacking generals (and that's only when Bryant's home). Of them, one is Godo (who will get some dumb equipment to make sure he can't be Condemned), one is Thraxamundar (he's the only one who this would help against, 'cause RUB doesn't have tons of alternate wincons that aren't Nicol Bolas), and Kresh (which has so many tutors like Survival, Diabolic Intent, Demonic, Vamp, a trillion others... that it's no better than just killing him with other spells).

Final thoughts:

What do I cut for Nature's Claim? Does it replace Orim's Thunder? D-Blow?
With the addition of a million more duals I'm looking into the Domain Discard/Draw sorceries. Is that a good idea?
I feel naked without my removal spells (I recently cut Diabolic Edict and Terminate). Am I playing enough?
Even with that fuckton of counters I want to add a couple more. Power Sink is at the top of my list, but I feel like the going gets tougher after that. Cryptic Command?

[Bryant Cook]

There's no reason to run Rampant Growth over Sakura-Tribe Elder. Especially with Cruel Ultimatum and Volrath's Stronghold.

[Zach Tartell]

Orim's Thunder
Dismantling Blow
Fracturing Gust
Krosan Grip
Path to Exile
Swords to Plowshares
Bant Charm
Crib Swap
Putrefy
Vindicate
Phyrexian Arena
Sensei's Diving Top
Mulldrifter
Fact or Fiction
Tidings
Etched Oracle
Sylvan Library
Opportunity
Nature's Lore
Farseek
Rampant Growth
Darksteel Ingot
Harrow
Kodama's Reach
Identity Crisis
Mind Twist
Mind Shatter
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
Decree of Justice
Cruel Ultimatum
Magister Sphinx
Horde of Notions (General)
Akroma's Vengeance
Planar Cleansing
Austere Command
Wrath of God
Hallowed Burial
Oblivion Stone
Pernicious Deed
Mystical Teachings
Mystical Tutor
Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Eternal Witness
Jund Charm
Naya Charm
Wild Ricochet
Life from the Loam
Pact of Negaiton
Negate
Rewind
Mana Drain
Desertion
Countersquall
Double Negative
Faerie Trickery
Hinder
Forbid
Dissipate
Counterspell
Voidslime
Dismiss
Logic Knot


I've made the following changes:

Removed:

Rampant Growth
Decree of Justice
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
Crib Swap

Added:
Cryptic Command
Force of WIll
Mindbreak Trap
Sakua-Tribe Elder



I have a list of shit I want to add, too:

Nature's Claim
Sorin Markov
Lim-Dul's Vault
Voices from the Void
Allied Strategies
Power Sink
Either All Suns Dawn or Nostalgic Dreams
Prismatic Omen


Reasoning:
-Sorin is probably better than Magister Sphinx; It's cheaper but a little more prohibitive. Since I'd never drop it early in the game it's probably better (insofar as it'd be one mana easier to have a counterspell or two up while playing).
-Nautre's Claim is better than a normal Disenchant, but I'm not sure whether I should cut something for it or just add it. I'd cut Dismantling Blow before I'd cut Orim's Thunder (as Thunder can kill a creature more often than Blow will draw me cards - this is my "big boy" deck, and games usually don't let me get to the point where I have three extra mana to throw around).
-Vault is just kinda in to bump my Blue count for Force and as a random Vamp. Worth it?
-Doman spells: I like Voices better than Mind Shatter, since five cards is about the number of cards in a hand late game, and (if I'm blessed enough to get it off turn 4 or 5) I'll even take a 6 card hand to 1. I'm not sure where to fit in Allied Strategies, though.
-Are there any good counterspells that I could play that I'm not? I'd like to avoid Undermine and Absorb, but I guess they're better than a not-hard counter. Find me space? Do I need them?
-Dreams/ASD: I currently run Naya Charm (<3 Instants) but Dreams and ASD fill different slots: ASD will be an amazing topdeck. It's a late-game bomb. I like that it gets me probably two counters, an acceleration spell (since that's all I play for green), a Tutor, and probably a disenchant or a creature removal spell. Since I only run like three red cards (Ultimatum, Double Negative, Wild Ricochet) it's not that great. Dreams, on the other hand, is in to make Loam better. Win more? I need actual feed back on this slot.
-I'm sorry I even suggested Omen. Seems horrible. But I jsut picked up a foil.