View Full Version : [Deck] Berserk Stompy
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=117370&d=1303124111
credits for Piet (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/member.php?u=43579) for the banner
Berserk Stompy
The Green Aggro - grow Based deck!
About the deck
Berserk Stompy is a variation of the old Stompy decks, that ran several green creatures along with a lot of Giant Growth-like effects (usually reffered to as pumps or growths) to try to win as fast as possible.
This variation of the deck focus on the double-damage card "Berserk" combined with pumps to deal a large amount of damage in no time.
Historical
Monogreen aggro decks were the first ones to be referenced as "Stompy", long ago, at T2 games. It have involved lots of creatures and growth effects to try and hit the opponent in severeal different variations. Though most of the variations had medium to little success, stompy is always trying to reach a good point in the top.
A long known version of Stompy is the N-land Stompy, which uses Quirion Ranger together with other techs to try to abuse a lowland build, drawing more business cards. However, this version never had much success, specially because of low land count and use of accelerations.
Berserk Stompy as it is today was first developed by César Fernández, and made it to a Top 1 finish in "Legacy Open PT Valencia", 2007:
Berserk Stompy by César Fernández (PT-valencia report (http://launiversidaddelasartesludicas.blogspot.com/2007/10/report-open-de-
legacy-del-pt-valencia.html)):
//Lands
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
10 Forest
//Creatures
4 Jungle Lion
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Kavu Predator
4 Skyshroud Elite
2 Scryb Sprites
2 Tarmogoyf
//Spells
3 Seal of Strength
4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
4 Berserk
4 Might of Old Krosa
//Sideboard
SB: 4 Seeds of Innocence
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Gaea's Blessing
SB: 3 Viridian Zealot
SB: 4 Rushwood Legate
There's also another version of the deck, a 3-color deck featuring a way different view. It's also called Berserk Stompy, but since only Etienne develops it and play, I thought it was worthy the Honorable mention, but let's focus on the green version.
Berserk Stompy by Etienne Villani:
//Lands
4 Savannah
2 Taiga
2 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
//Accelerators
4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
//Creatures
4 Kavu Predator
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Skyshroud Cutter
//Spells
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Fling
//Sideboard
SB: 4 Vexing Shusher
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 3 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 Compost
SB: 2 Reverent Silence
SB: 2 Seeds of Innocence
Updated version
as of 2015-02-25
Here's a more up-to-date version I've recently tested:
//Maindeck
16 Forest
4 Dryad Militant
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Jungle Lion
3 Skarrgan pit-skulk
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Berserk
4 Rancor
4 Invigorate
3 Giant Growth
4 Seal of Strength
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Sylvan Library
//Sideboard
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Gleeful Sabotage
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library
1 Choke
1 Compost
1 Slippery Bogle
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Might of Old Krosa
Card choice explanations
Creatures
Basic choices here - Skarrgan, Neetle and Lion are the 3 best creatures for 1cc, with a close cut for Tattermunge Maniac. They are fast, put pressure, and deal the early damage you need. They are the core of the deck.
Silhana Ledgewalker is the solution to a "safe combo". She can win the game via Rancor+Evasion+Hexproof, but at best she will receive a lot of pumps and just win. It's the "lategame" creature (like, turn 2-3 =P)
Viridan Zealot is here taking the recently cut place of Kavu Predator. Predator can be great against some decks not packing removal, but this is something rarer over time. Zealot can take you out of nasty situations for a win, against a lot of random Enchant/Artifact, and the 2/1 body can still put pressure. The close cuts here are many, and it won the spot for it's versatility. You can still use Kavu Predator since, in the end, the guys that win most games are going to be the 1cmc 2/x guys and Silhana.
Pumps
Berserk is the deck namesake, and the card that will be most related to your wins than any other.
Invigorate has four functions, going from just a +1 damage to a strong high damage for free under a Berserk, and is worth it even without Kavu around. It can also be hardcasted, and the last function is protecting from burn for free.
Rancor increases the early damage, and can win the game by itself, on the back of a silhana of a first turn guy. It also helps "mana smoothing", since you can cast it a turn prior Berserk to stack.
Seal of Strength is an underrated card in this deck. Its function is to smooth mana at the same time it can be a sorcery Giant Growth. Its synergy with Berserk got the spot for it, and is really solid.
Giant Growth got the last spot fighting against Might of Old Krosa. The former is better on a little more complex combat situations, and can help you go through blockers or kill a big threat easier. The second is better under the utopic "open field". It's really worth the versatility GG gives over MoOK, but MoOK is a fair option as well.
Business
Sylvan Library - This card is unbelievable strong. I used dismiss it, and now I regreat -- It fetches for fuel and is a must counter for control decks. Play this card.
Usual sideboard Options
Gleeful Sabotage - The best "Disenchant" effect for this deck. Unlike Krosan Grip, it has 2cmc, fitting our manabase, and its copy isn't countered by Chalice of the Void and doesn't triggerCounterbalance. Also, it can be used against Stax/Enchantress/Affinity as a 2-for-1.
Seeds of Innocence - One of the most common sideboard options, it breaks many artifact-dependant decks, and also brings a giant kavu to the win. Easy add against Dragon Stompy and Stax-like decks. Also great against Affinity
Naturalize - Fast and versatile, it solves the problem, and since it's instant speed, you can wait to cast it with the right timing. Can be used against uncountable decks.
Vexing Shusher - Your protection against Combo breakers, this card is awesome against many decks, like Thresh, CB top, decks that involve Chalice of the void, and many others.
Krosan Grip - This boosted naturalize can deal with more extreme situations, but the extra :1: required to cast it makes it slow sometimes. Besides that, a Shusher with a Naturalize can deal it's job most of the time (only thing they can't is destroing a Top)
Reverent Silence - Breaks decks with many enchantments. The bad part is that usualy decks run more artifacts than enchantments, but it's a good call against Enchantress and anything else. Plus, it grow your Kavu.
Tormod's Crypt - Simple drop it against LftL and see how afraid they get. This thing is supposed to get you enough time to combo against those decks that GY abuse to combo before you. Besides, it helps a lot against other decks as well.
Gaea's Blessing - A single copy of this in your sideboard, and you may get even a draw or a win against some random Painter and High Tide decks. Almost weigthless
Thorn of Amethyst - Against storm combos that can blow you up before you can do anything, this may help you out. Too bad it's a 2cc card, so, you may have no time to play them. It also slows you down a bit, but they'll be crushed.
Pithing Needle - Awesome overall card, it's hatefull effect can nerf pretty much almost every deck in the format. It may break Sensei's divining top, LED, Vial, Jitte, Mishra & Mutavault, and so many other cards in the format. This is almost an auto-include to a sideboard that lacks options.
Scryb Sprites (!) - This can be add in if you fell like there are too many creature-aggro decks in your meta, and want to fly over them to combo. It's an avarage card, but should be kept as a meta call.
Chalice of the Void - To be used @ 0 against combos - Don't be surprised, this really owns storm combos!
Rushwood Legate - Free creature against the hole bunch of decks that play blue, a good addition, and helps a lot against Landstill.
Hidden Herd - Considered a Sideboard against non-basic, but so should Skyshroud Elite be, in legacy this card is almost a :g: 3/3 creature. Too bad it can be delayed forever when the opponent already have his lands.
Mindbreak Trap - Recently added against Tendrils of Agony combos, it breaks them apart, but are most likely to be discarded or disabled by Orim's Chant. Might help anyway, since it takes them a little time/mana to use their defenses, enabling you to rush them.
Faerie Macabre - Like tormods, less effective but harder to counter (stifle counters it). Seems great against reanimator.
Relic of Progenitus - Like Tormods, a lot more effective, but easier to counter (when fighting daze or chalice @1).
Compost - Helps against B decks, like The Gate, Rock, Deadguy, Junk, Pox. And is strong against dredge.
Umezawa's Jitte - Against aggro decks, held by a Silhana, can be devastating.
Close Cuts - Close cuts almost made into maindeck, but due to some lackluster were cut, can still see play.
Kavu Predator - this one is not really a close cut, it can go maindeck instead of Viridian if no artifacts/enchantments are expect. I still prefer the useful Viridian, tho.
Slippery Bogle
Tattermunge Maniac
Nettle Sentinel
Tarmogoyf
Elvish Spirit Guide
Scryb Sprites
Might of Old Krosa
Vines of Vastwood
Gameplay
Zerk is a basic deck, but I've seen people doing several gamebreaker mistakes all the years I've been playing with it. Some of them are easier to figure, some harder, but here is my experience playing the deck. Feel free to discuss.
Mulligan right
You should mulligan your bad hands. Some of them are obvious (6 forests, 6 pumps) but some of them are less obvious, and these are the ones you should look at.
First, 1-forest hand is not always keepable, and as you will find out, it is more often than not a mulligan. If the hand is not a godly hand, you should try a 2 lander, because then you can stack pumps and cast 2cc dudes, and library, properly.
A godly 1cc hand depend on the matchup. For example, against Ad Nauseam, a good 1cc hand has a 2/x guy for :g: and a growth, so that you can deal some early damage.
A generally good hand with 1-lander must be able to do strong things and give you play. A land with several Invigorates and a Berserk, or Seal and Zerk, or a hand with 1cc guys and Rancor are good electable hands for 1-land.
If it has silhanas, libraries, and low pump count, forget it, it's too slow.
On the other side, most 2 and 3 land hands are good enough to go, unless clogged with boring slow resources, like a 3 forest 4 Silhanas hand. Sure, you might draw a rancor and win on the back of it, but you could face a tarmogoyf clock and lose without even trying.
17 is the magic number of lands here exactly because of this - it's the best number to get 2 or 3 land hands without drawing too much of them later, and it mulls fine.
Hold your pumps
This is a rule with exceptions, but grosso modo, don't use your pumps. Any +3 power you spend now could have been +6 or +12 later. You can use your pumps as a way to kill a tempo deck with light threat density, but usually it's not worthy not to hold your pumps.
Play Sylvan Library
Sylvan Library is too good not to be played. Analising when it was good when it came into play, it was always good. Against Control decks, it's gamebreaker, and against Aggro it fetches for your combo-win. Against combo, it isn't that great because it costs 2, but if you T1 nettle and T2 Sylvan, T3 is much more likely a kill than without the sylvan.
Do not overextend
Sometimes it surprises me that people don't know what this is. Don't play all of your creatures, and sandbag Forests in hand if you don't need them. Wrath of God, Armaggedon, Engineered Explosives, Pernicious Deed, and so on... Also, holding lands sometimes baits a stupid Duress and then you draw some pump and can hold it.
Decide your role fast
It's common to have a lot of 2/x creatures in hand, and elect to play one and make it stand alone. If you want to berserk the opponent, playing a Sylvan Library, a Silhana, or a Rancor or Seal can be more gamebreaking than playing a lot of weennies.
Against a pileofcounters.dec, don't keep a hand with only 1 creature, they will handle it, and you will lose. This is simple when you know what you are doing, either going "combo" (strong vs aggro) or "aggro" (strong vs control)
Do your math
Seriously, you are playing magic. You should be able to sum natural numbers and then multiply them for 2, and in the end subtract some other natural numbers. Don't ever lose a game due to bad math - Only zerk when you are 100% sure you will win. Don't forget to count multiple blockers, don't forget to count invigorate +3 life, don't forget to double the power from the creature too.
Play a lot of 2/x creatures for :g:
It's a mistake to play Slippery Bogle instead of Nettle Sentinel and the likes. Nettle will stack crucial early damage for us, while bogle will sit. Bogle can be better midgame, but silhana is the best girl there, and Sylvan is a house there too. If you are already playing 12~14 2/x creatures for :g:, you can afford Scryb Sprites and Slippery Bogle, but not before this much. You always want to open a 2/x for :g:
Play all 4 Invigorate (even without Kavu) and all 4 Seal of Strength
Cheap pumps are what make hands with one land good, and are what makes Berserk better. Also, cheap pumps are good in most game situations, and Invigorate can be hardcasted (I do this a lot, how can people forget?). Leaving home without all 16 fixed pumps is a mistake: Berserk, Rancor, Seal, Invigorate
Don't forget pseudo-evasion, and Giant Growth is good
If you can sustain 2 creatures against one even if one of them die and get replaced, you have a "pseudo-evasion".
Example: 2x Nettle vs Tarmogoyf -> One nettle hits.
This is enough to break some games some times.
If you pseudo-evade, Giant Growth is better than Might of Old Krosa. If you decide to kill the blocker, GG is better as well. MoOK is only better if you have a Silhana or "the open field".
That's all I got, hope it helps. GL & HAVE LOTS OF FUN =)
Nihil Credo
09-25-2009, 08:30 AM
Moved to Established. Surprising that there isn't a thread for this deck already.
That is because what you are linking is not a image file but a database query. Try using one of those instead:
http://www.wizards.com/global/images/magic/general/Berserk.jpg
http://www.printmymagicdeck.com/MTG_Card_Pics/Limited-Unlimited/Berserk.full.jpg
Ok! Done! Thanks!
Let the fun begin!
Ok, first of, The card, at the moment, that is planning to tweak the deck
----------------------
Vines of Vastwood :g:
Instant
Kicker - :g:
Target creature can't be the target of spells of abilities your opponents control until end of turn. If Vines of Vastwood was kicked, that creature gets +4/+4 until end of turn.
----------------------
Think it'll will deserve a slot in the deck easly ^^
The awesome thing about VoVW is, that the kicker is the pump and the normal effect is the pseudo-Shroud. This way it offers protection and you can use abundant mana for extrapump.
It should be an automatic 4 of IMO.
Tacosnape
09-25-2009, 12:38 PM
Janky and horrible as it sounds, one of my friends plays this deck in a form, and the single most dangerous threat he runs in the deck is Slippery Bogle. He runs all threats and pump in the deck, and being able to sellout pump the Bogle without fear of X-for-1 removal has caused me more than a few nightmares.
I think that's one of the great things about Berserk Stompy - it's friggin janky, but it works.
Too bad Berserk costs about 100 bucks/each.
Justin
09-25-2009, 01:18 PM
I think that's one of the great things about Berserk Stompy - it's friggin janky, but it works.
Too bad Berserk costs about 100 bucks/each.
Berserk has been reprinted in From the Vault: Exiled. Berserk singles from that set are going for about $30. Still pricey, but cheaper than Tarmogoyf.
Berserk has been reprinted in From the Vault: Exiled. Berserk singles from that set are going for about $30. Still pricey, but cheaper than Tarmogoyf.
Huh? Last time I checked, reprinted Berserk was selling for 100 bucks/each. On the other hand, I didn't check since 2 months or so.
Thank you for the information, looks like I'm gonna build that deck.
Janky and horrible as it sounds, one of my friends plays this deck in a form, and the single most dangerous threat he runs in the deck is Slippery Bogle. He runs all threats and pump in the deck, and being able to sellout pump the Bogle without fear of X-for-1 removal has caused me more than a few nightmares.
Slippery Bogle + Silhana + VoVW seems like the deck won't be so easily stoped any longer! =)
We have to test something with all those, ad sure add nettle sentinel to those first lists there...
Urray!
Slippery Bogle + Silhana + VoVW seems like the deck won't be so easily stoped any longer! =)
We have to test something with all those, ad sure add nettle sentinel to those first lists there...
Urray!
CotV and 3Sphere still fuck you up pretty hard.
CotV and 3Sphere still fuck you up pretty hard.
That's true. But you get a nice giant options in sideboarding for those. And once you get around then, you can beat 'em the aggro style...
Faster combos still fuck us up pretty harder... not even a large amount of sideboarding options...
I used to side Shard of Amethyst, and carry a cross for the further praying... but that was some ago...
Otter
09-25-2009, 03:32 PM
I love this deck more than I can say. It's just so green and fun. A few quick thoughts --
If there are a lot of Merfolk in your area, Scryb Ranger can be an absolute beating. Ruins their guys all day long, especially if they're wearing Jitte.
Slippery Boggle looks sick as hell, I was actually wishing that they were going to print a 1/1 for G with opponent shroud in Zendikar. Apparently it already exists. Awkward.
Reverent Silence is amazing against Counterbalance, it doesn't cost you a thing to cast, it's hard to hit with CB, and grows your Predators. Debatable if it's better than something like Krosan Grip, but it's certainly very worthy of discussion.
If you're running Fetchlands or Land Grants, one copy of Dryad Arbor can be amazing. Personally I don't like Fetches since the lack of them makes opposing Stifles almost completely dead, but I won't deny that they can make some sick plays. Ever seen the look on someone's face when they run a 4/5 Goyf into your board that's tapped out except a single fetch, you turn it into Dryad Arbor and Invigorate it? Downright hilarious.
Speaking of hating the fetchlands, I'm pretty heavily opposed to splashing colors. As nice as things like Fling, Teeg, Isamaru, Jotun Grunt, etc might look, I've found that opening the small landcount up to Wasteland and Stifle hate is just not worth it. I'd rather just drop an endless horde of green dudes than drop slightly better guys and lose half my games to manascrew. The deck doesn't need more "Oops, I lose" problems on top of G1, T1 Chalices.
Pulp_Fiction
09-25-2009, 04:16 PM
I would still argue for Vine Dryad's inclusion. Mostly everything you are going to play against will be running Goyf and having a card that just goes .... oh unblockable, FUCK YO COUCH, is pretty good. The negative card synergy is understandable, these decks drop the hand VERY fast.
Mono-G has always been the most consistent of any of the lists. As far as fetches go ... not a fan, Something like 12 forests and 4 Land Grant should be more than enough. Opening up the deck to Stifle and Wasteland is a terrible idea and you will lose a lot of games to it. You also don't have to run ESG with a manabase like this (create less dead topdecks later on) which could also be a plus. I really like the new pump spell but is it better than Seal of Strength? I think it is since StP has always been this deck's nightmare and with Invigorate on the stack watching your Predator go farming is not good, but you now have a response to that!
I think we need to establish a good, solid creature base before anything else. I think these are the essential creatures for any Berserk Stompy deck:
4x Ledgewalker
4x Bogle
2-4x Scryb Sprites (help with mana so much and flying is a +)
4x Kavu Predator
The rest are up for debate, cards like: Skyshroud Cutter, Vine Dryad, Pit-Skulk, Jungle Lion, Rogue Elephant, Harvest Wurm, Skyshroud Elite, and there are many more. I really don't like Goyf in the deck but this is just my personal opinion, I much prefer someone who comes down turn 1 or has evasion of some form.
I vote for Pit Skulk.
Oh and do you want some fun? Try Xantid Swarm. i know, it has power 0, but once it attacks you can freely dump your hand full of pumps on the board.
Roman Candle
09-25-2009, 04:36 PM
I vote for Pit Skulk.
This. Pit-Skulk was like the best creature in the deck aside from Goyf, why cut it?
Humphrey
09-25-2009, 05:09 PM
The good old Berserk Stompy
I played it years ago. Although its not an official tournament list, it might me interesting to the thread. Ive thrown it together on mws. But i cant remember the SB, i know i played naturalize but what else =?
Stompy list in 2003
// Lands
12 [8E] Forest (2)
// Creatures
4 [EX] Skyshroud Elite
1 [7E] Elvish Lyrist
4 [TE] Muscle Sliver
2 [B] Scryb Sprites
4 [AN] Ghazban Ogre
3 [WL] Rogue Elephant
4 [PT] Jungle Lion
// Spells
4 [U] Berserk
3 [DM] Bounty of the Hunt
3 [WL] Briar Shield
3 [BD] Giant Growth
2 [5E] Winter Orb
3 [NE] Seal of Strength
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [UL] Rancor
Otter
09-25-2009, 05:32 PM
4x Ledgewalker
4x Bogle
2-4x Scryb Sprites (help with mana so much and flying is a +)
4x Kavu Predator
Do you mean Scryb Ranger? I'm missing how Scryb Sprites help with your mana other than just not costing very much of it. Not that Sprites are bad in the deck, one mana evasive dudes are quite solid, just looking for clarification.
I really like the new pump spell but is it better than Seal of Strength?
Seal is definitely the slot that it fights for and I'm pretty sure that VotV wins. Seal is nice in that it can cost 0 on the turn you need instead of G or GG, but it's an on-the-board trick and often ends up getting cast the turn you use it due to you usually having dudes to cast for the first two turns. I'm pretty sure that slowing down a tiny bit for the extra consistency against StP/Bolt is worth it. Not to mention that taking out Seal also means that literally the only thing that Stifle targets is the Rancor graveyard trigger, which is hilarious.
Is Kavu Predator really worth playing in this deck? I get that it combos with invigorate and possibly Reverent Silence post-board.... but it's just a bear all other times... seems janky to me. The deck doesn't need that kind of inconsistency. I think Bounty of the Hunt is better than Invigorate as free, instant pump.
My creature base would look like this:
best green 1 drops:
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Jungle Lion
then:
4 Slippery Bogle - Seems decent.. not sure if it's better than Ledgewalker.
4 Scryb Ranger - Quirion Ranger + flash, evasion AND pro-merfolk? I'm in.
4 Tarmogoyf - why run less?
Elvish Spirit Guides are good for a bit of speed and Daze protection. Plus, they pitch to Bounty when they're no longer useful. Land Grant, however, is probably not worth the risk of having it be the only mana source in your opening hand. But it does pump Goyf and pitch to Bounty.
Bogle seems to be a house, but we should see if the other 1cc with 2 attack aren't better due to the extra dmg they do per turn, and specially the extra damage they do when doubling dmg...
Anyway we have silhanas also... And now we got Vastwood, we can have 12 of the same effect. Not saying it`s bad, but we can't reduce our power against our good matchups...
A creature I always consider in my stompies, and also in Berserk ones, is Vine Dryad. It can evade Chalice, CB and Snare, come turn 1, mini-combo with skargan on the draw, surprise block and surprises counters EOT... AND she forest walks. IMO it's a house...
4 Tarmogoyf - why run less?
Because it's slow for us in so many matchs that don't use GY abuse
Vine Dryad
Definitely crossed my mind. The only thing is if you use Bounty as well, that's a lot of card disadvantage, and I think Bounty is better.
Re: Goyf
Because it's slow for us in so many matchs that don't use GY abuse
Goyf is your backup plan when the pump tricks fail. It's an easy 4/5.
Muradin
09-25-2009, 06:11 PM
17 Forest
4 Slippery Bogle
4 Jungle Lion
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Kavu Predator
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
3 Scythe Tiger (not sure about this, perhaps 4 Goyfs and just 3 Vines of Vastwood would be better)
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
4 Might of old Krosa
4 Vines of Vastwood
17 Lands, 23 Creatures, 20 Pumper. Works quite well at least on MWS and against the goldfish.
SB would be something like:
4 Reverent Silence (free, CB proof, kills Enchantress, synergy with Kavu
Predator)
4 Mindbreak Trap (just anti combo)
4 Rushwood Legate (free creatures are good I hear)
3 Umezawas Jitte (Zoo)
If Scythe Tiger had trollshroud and not just Shroud, it would be playable.
No Skyshroud Elite?
Definitely crossed my mind. The only thing is if you use Bounty as well, that's a lot of card disadvantage, and I think Bounty is better.
Re: Goyf
Goyf is your backup plan when the pump tricks fail. It's an easy 4/5.
Bounty isn't used for long... anyway, fell free to explain your reasons on why it's better then Vine... IMO, I prefer card disadvantage to have creatures hitting better then that for pumps that depends a) on creatures and b) in green cards in your hand.
On Goyf, I don't think I should run 4-of my backup plan for when the rest of the deck didn't go... but that's a personal issue... Anyways, it's a 4/5 many times indeed, in the mid-late game.
Well, about Scythe Tiger, i wouldn't run it into a Berserk Stompy -.-
Hard Shroud doesn't help much
And Skyshroud Elite is probably the fastest creature of the deck for the format.
Bounty was awesome when I played 10-land stompy ages ago. Pitch Land Grants and ESGs. Pitch doubles. Pitch unnecessary creatures. It's rarely dead, and it doesn't give your opponent life. It's like a "Force of Arc Lightning" in this deck.
My version:
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Slippery Bogle
4 Scryb Ranger
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Bounty of the Hunt
4 Rancor
4 Berserk
3 Vines of the Vastwood
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
13 Forest
Obfuscate Freely
09-25-2009, 07:05 PM
I would really like to believe that this deck could be built optimally without splashing (I have a fetish for mono-green decks), but I simply don't buy it. Splashing gives you access to so many better cards, the first of which is Wild Nacatl, which is pretty much far-and-away the best aggressive one-drop ever printed.
I mean, compare the cat to Skyshroud Elite. It isn't even close, and having guys like Nacatl that have respectable base stats is really important to winning every game that doesn't involve you throwing down triple Berserk on the second turn and falling out of your chair into a seizure brought on by how awesome that was.
Red also gives you Goblin Guide, which seems very likely to find a home here. It's a great turn-one play for a deck that aims to kill in two or three turns. More importantly, having a cheap guy with haste gives you the capability of utilizing pump spells on any turn, even if you started that turn with an empty board. Not only is this an invaluable tactical weapon, it is also greatly complicates your opponent's decision-making. Tapping out to Wrath your team is no longer a safe play to make.
One of the big questions I have about this deck is whether Kavu Predator deserves inclusion, or not. I've played Berserk Stompy with Predator, and it is certainly capable of being silly, but a lot of the time it's terrible, instead. Conditional threats are pretty hard to justify, so I think it may be time to cut this guy loose. It isn't as if Invigorate is all that great, anyway, and Skyshroud Cutter is obviously bad.
I think I do like Woolly Thoctar for this deck. He's expensive, and slow, but ESG makes him a second-turn play, and he can do a ton of damage with or without pump. Along with Tarmogoyf and possibly Predator, Thoctar is one of the few creatures this deck can play that can derive decent use out of an unsupported Berserk (meaning a Berserk without any other pump to go along with it).
Have any of you considered Double Cleave? I never really see anyone talk about the card, but it's a decent proxy for Berserk in many cases. It's similar to the Flings in the opening post, I suppose.
Vines of Vastwood seems like a nice addition to this deck, for all of the reasons people have mentioned. I have actually been waiting a long time for an instant-speed Monstrous Growth, and now we have something much better!
Let's see, here's the list I just typed up:
//21
4x Wild Nacatl
4x Goblin Guide
4x Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Silhana Ledgewalker
2x Woolly Thoctar
//17
4x Rancor
4x Might of Old Krosa
4x Vines of Vastwood
4x Berserk
1x Double Cleave
//22
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Horizon Canopy
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
3x Taiga
2x Savannah
1x Plateau
I like Pit-Skulk a lot, since it has both decent stats and a decent ability. I'm a little hesitant on Ledgewalker, because she has horrible stats, but both of her abilities are of course fantastic.
This list might be too land-light, especially with the loss of Invigorate. The Thoctars and/or the Double Cleave could easily become more lands.
Horizon Canopy seems as good here as it is in Zoo (better, actually, since there are no Kird Apes or Fireblasts, and green is the main color), so you guys should be playing them. Especially in the mono-green builds. Why on earth wouldn't you?
...
Horizon Canopy seems as good here as it is in Zoo (better, actually, since there are no Kird Apes or Fireblasts, and green is the main color), so you guys should be playing them. Especially in the mono-green builds. Why on earth wouldn't you?
The main reason to stick to mono is because it's more stable. If you play only forest, non-basic hate won't affect you, and thus, wastelands.
This deck is easily locked by lack of mana, and thus, if you afford to lose a land, and then they trini/chalice you, it's an auto-loss.
It's much like a personal option. I preffer sticking to monogreen, but I respect your choice on nonbasics.
Otter
09-25-2009, 09:19 PM
To be blunt, I'm having trouble seeing how 3-color Berserk stompy isn't just a bad version of Zoo that has the same weaknesses and less reach. What is there to gain by cutting Lightning Bolt, Price of Progress, etc for Berserk, Rancor, etc?
Pltnmngl
09-25-2009, 09:44 PM
God...this deck is metagame-able that it's janky. So many options with so many open spots. Hell, the only cards everyone can agree upon are forests and Beserk.
I think the first thing we should do is compile a list off all the reasonable 1 and 2 drop creatures.
By the way, Summoning Trap for the SB? We gotta have something better than just Grip against CB decks...
To be blunt, I'm having trouble seeing how 3-color Berserk stompy isn't just a bad version of Zoo that has the same weaknesses and less reach. What is there to gain by cutting Lightning Bolt, Price of Progress, etc for Berserk, Rancor, etc?
This.
God...this deck is metagame-able that it's janky. So many options with so many open spots. Hell, the only cards everyone can agree upon are forests and Beserk.
I think the first thing we should do is compile a list off all the reasonable 1 and 2 drop creatures.
By the way, Summoning Trap for the SB? We gotta have something better than just Grip against CB decks...
Actually I'm doing the compilation, and will post it in the front page, as soon as I get the time. If you fell like you could do, post it and I'll add in the first page.
Everything that is missing in the first page, anyone who fells like to may help.
To begin with, there are a few other cards other then forest and berserks we can add:
Kavu Predator
Invigorate
Silhana Ledgewalker
Rancor
Might of old Krosa
And some others that are a lot good in every deck, and will do the job:
Skarrgan pit-skulk
Jungle Lion
Skyshroud Elite
Nettle Sentinel
Scryb sprites
Vines of VastWood
The fact is that we run a lot of 1cc and 2cc creatures, so they are personal taste most likely, and we can discuss them for ours. No problem, if you fell like. But first of all, post their ADVANTAGES AND DISADIVANTAGES, in a list, so that we comprehend your point of view =)
(EDIT: Posted this fact as "anti-flame note" in the first page =) )
CB decks isn't supposed to be our worst nightmare: the combo part kind of dies, but the aggro part doesn't, and, we got a lot of stuff against it without mentioning krosan grip, and krosan grip is the best card there is against it also. We can easily combo after a krosan EOT.
I suggest you include Slippery Bogle as a fixed spot in the deck.
Reasoning:
He is a 1/1 for 1 and has trollshroud. A non-evasive Ledgewalker, so to say.
God...this deck is metagame-able that it's janky. So many options with so many open spots. Hell, the only cards everyone can agree upon are forests and Beserk.
I think the first thing we should do is compile a list off all the reasonable 1 and 2 drop creatures.
I believe this deck suffers from the same problems as Pox does, if you look at that thread. There's no real set & rock solid list that people agree on most likely because the deck doesn't really function all that well. It's easily disrupted. Some cards just single handedly shuts down the deck. On top of this it's entirely dependant on the top draw which makes it really inconsistant to boot.
So when people get home from a tournament they think "Hmm, that didn't go too well. I'll make some adjustments to the deck...".
Don't get me wrong though. I love Berserk Stompy. It was the first real Legacy deck I collected. :)
On to something more constructive.
I've played the deck through many tournaments and the Kavu Predator / Invigorate combo is ... I'm not sure what I think about it.
I hate, hate, hate having to drop a Kavu Predator without having an Invigorate. Yay. A Grizzly with trample - having to face down my opponent's 4/5 goyf. >_<
It's awesome when it pans out but ultimately I think this mini combo falls into the "Danger of cool things" category.
I never tried out Slippery Bogle. He looks very promising as Silhana Ledgewalker is a total bomb. Silhana Ledgewalker is also the reason why I decided to run 1-2 Briar Shield in addition to 4 Rancor. As a 1/1 she's not the fastest clock in the world. ;)
What about cards like Pyroclasm? They hurt this deck a lot dont they?
I mean most of the drops are 1/1 or 2/2 and trollshroud doesnt even help against Pyroclasm.
I also think Sylvan Library is worth testing out. We lose a round, but on the other hand it improves our cardquality and helps us making the final blow faster.
Gocho
09-26-2009, 07:42 AM
The Berserk Stompy
This is the most usual list, found in Deckcheck, and if I'm not wrong, it was made by César Fernández and made it to the top in "Legacy Open PT Valencia", in 2007, and hasn't change much since then. (Source: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=11584)
Cesar has a Spanish blog and recently has made some testing with Berserk Stompy again:
http://launiversidaddelasartesludicas.blogspot.com/2009/09/zendikar-para-berserk-stompy-y-la-lista.html
His most recent list:
Berserk Stompy, por César Fernández
Maindeck:
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
10 Forest
3 Seal of Strength
4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
4 Berserk
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Slippery Boggle
4 Tattermunge Maniac
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Kavu Predator
Sideboard:
4 Seeds of Innocence
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Vexing Shusher
4 Naturalize
Don't Forget to read the Bonus Track. I translated the spanish part and you can read in English in his blog:
Durante la penúltima ronda del evento, mi rival llegó como un minuto tarde, y le pusieron un Game Loss. Empezaba rapidito ganando, aunque fuese en los despachos. Se sienta, barajamos rápido y empieza su partida con un doble Careful Study bastante tochos. En mi turno pongo un Bosque y bajo un Skarrgan Pit-skulk. En su turno pone Ichorids y draga hasta la vida. Total que al final del turno yo estoy a 14 vidas y tengo enfrente una armada de más de 10 Zombies 2/2 y se da la siguiente conversación mientras contaba el total zombies.
During the penultimate round of the event, my opponent came a minute late, and get a Game Loss. He sits down, shuffle quickly and starts his game with a double Careful Study. In my turn and I put a forest and cast a Skarrgan Pit-skulk. In his turn returns two Ichorids and dredge a lot. At end of turn I am at 14 and have an army in front of more than 10 Zombies 2/2 and the following conversation occurs while counting the total zombies.
http://launiversidaddelasartesludicas.blogspot.com/2009/09/zendikar-para-berserk-stompy-y-la-lista.html
DukeDemonKn1ght
09-26-2009, 08:01 AM
That "bonus track" link made me :laugh: although I had to dig a bit to find it... Wouldn't a copy/paste be easier??
I have a real question though: why do people run Seeds of Innocence in the sideboard of this deck? I've even playtested with a similar list on MWS a while ago, and I never understood what match-up it's for. Is it just because of our huge problem with Chalice and Trinisphere?
And I've also never really liked Kavu Predator, I think Tarmogoyf might be better in his slot, much as I fucking cringe at suggesting people to put Tarmogoyf in their decks... I mean, this deck pretty reliably is going to get a land, an instant, and probably also a creature into the graveyard. Is the trample on Predator really that important? Because the mini-combo is a little too cute, I agree with people who've been saying that.
One more thing, I think the Sylvan Library suggestion is actually pretty good. It seems like if you decided to up the amount of fetch-lands to like 10 or so, and run 3-4 Sylvan Library, you could almost run the deck like a weird Green variant of suicide black, which actually sounds pretty appealing to me. I mean, I can't help but think that having a way to help dig out Berzerk would be pretty clutch, and you can ignore your life total to a certain extent in exchange for a few extra cards from Library...
I realize it sounds pretty strange, since I'm literally suggesting that people run more fetch-lands than basics, but I think once you settled on the right number of fetch-lands and the right number of Sylvan Libraries to run, it might actually play pretty smoothly. Has anyone tried this?
NecroYawgmoth
09-26-2009, 12:02 PM
finally, a Thread for this deck ^^
Yeah, I played this deck for 2 years now, and now I got Berserks and play Berserk Stompy...
about the Seeds:
I was very sceptical about them,too and asked César about them, he answered me the following:
- It auto-wins Affinity (While pumping Kavu sometimes)
- It completely destroys White Stax and Dragon Stompy (While pumping Kavu sometimes)
. It's good versus decks sideboarding Jitte (While pumping Kavu sometimes)
- It's very good against Welder Reanimator or Welder Survival, killing Sphynx, Platinum, etc... (While pumping Kavu sometimes)
the thing is that it is very good against one of the worst matchups, why not packing it?
...about César's newest list I have to say that he haven't the time to test Nettle Sentinels but we think that he is better than Tattermunge Maniac (I mailed a lot with him)...
my problem with his list is, that I really really really like ESGs in this deck, (you can play first turn Kavu, or 2 Creatures, or suprise pump, which puts a lot of pressure on the opponent, but nobody mentioned her in this Thread... why???
I am not a fan of the Fetchlands, because the thinning-effect is not relevant, and it makes you vulnerable to Stifle...
Land Grant is a bad card, because you don't want to lose against random Force, Thoughtseize, Duress, etc.
and BotH is not needed with choces like "Berserk, Rancor, MooK, Invigorate" and this new thing out there...
Imo we need to find the optimal Manabase for this deck, because we know all other slots...
The good pump (see above) and the good Creatures (in this order imo)
Ledgewalker
Bogle
Kavu
Pit Skulk
Nettle
Elite
YawG
Hm. I totally forgot about ESG. She definitely needs to fit in there.
Don't cut Kavu. Just don't. He may be a bad card on his own, but his interaction with Invigorate and some of your SB cards make him awesome.
Otter
09-26-2009, 02:07 PM
Might as well post the version I'm currently testing:
//Lands
16 Forests
//Dudes
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Skarrgan Pit Skulk
4 Slippery Boggle
4 Jungle Lion
4 Kavu Predator
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
//Pump
4 Rancor
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Invigorate
4 Berserk
4 Vines of the Vastwood
//SB
4 Seeds of Innocence
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Vexing Shusher
3 Reverent Silence
No risky stuff like fetches or Land Grant. Nice and simple, sticking to the basic plan of "drop green dudes and bash." This isn't to say that I'm not considering solid guys like Vine Dryad, but I've decided that for the sake of testing I want to start over at the very beginning. So for the moment I'm using the easiest creatures and no card-disadvantage other than the pump. Nettle Sentinel is looking pretty sexy though, probably going to be trying him over either the Elite or the Lions.
Pltnmngl
09-26-2009, 06:36 PM
@Gui_Brasil- I can understand those cards. I'll accept those.
@Gocho- Thanks for posting that article. I was actually trying to find it to link it to this thread.
I hope zendikar gives us a trap card that pumps creatures in the later sets.
Gocho
09-27-2009, 05:00 AM
@Gui_Brasil- I can understand those cards. I'll accept those.
@Gocho- Thanks for posting that article. I was actually trying to find it to link it to this thread.
I hope zendikar gives us a trap card that pumps creatures in the later sets.
For historical you can find some older post about Berserk Stompy here:
http://www.magicevolution.com/noticia.php?id=297
http://launiversidaddelasartesludicas.blogspot.com/2007/10/report-open-de-legacy-del-pt-valencia.html
Barsoom
09-27-2009, 06:51 AM
Nettle Sentinel is way better that both Tattermunge Maniac and Jungle Lion (and possibly Skyshroud Elite too).
I found in testing that he isn't a simple 2/2 for 1, he is BETTER.
His "drawback" in this deck helps, in the form of having another guy to block; the obvious situation i'm talking of is when you'll attack with the Sentinel, then play another dude = one more creature to block on the opponent turn.
unquestionable creatures for Berserk Stompy imho
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Kavu Predator
4 Silhana Ledgewalker (she is better that Slippery Bogle)
questionable creatures
Skyshroud Elite
Slippery Bogle
Tattermunge Maniac (better than Jungle Lion)
Scryb Sprites
Imho the optimal configuration is 17 lands (with fetchlands or not), 19 or 20 pumps spells and 23 or 24 creatures; so you have to choose 7 or 8 creatures you like most from the questionable list above, and the deck is done.
IMO, 17 lands is just too much. 14 are enough, 12 could be okay, too. But 17? We play cheap spells for a reason.
Slippery Bogle is a must-include. Trollshroud is one of our best weapons.
leander?
09-27-2009, 07:14 AM
Tattermunge Maniac (better than Jungle Lion)
Hmm, I'n not sure..
Maniac's Advantage:
-Can block the turn after it came into play. (When thats relevant, you've already lost)
Lion's Advantage:
-Doesn't need to attack when there is a >0/>2 on the other side of the field.
So, lets take a situation and compare them..
Your opponent has a >0/>2 critter (Say, Tarmogoyf) and you've got a Maniac without any pump in your hand. You'll have to attack, your Goblin dies and you're going to lose. If the Maniac was a Lion instead, you could've past the turn and your opponent could've done two things:
-Hold the Goyf back to block in case you have pump+Berserk.
-Attack with the Goyf.
In the first case you've created a "Goyfstill" with a 2/1 dude. in the second case, you can attack with it.
Gocho
09-27-2009, 07:39 AM
Hmm, I'n not sure..
Maniac's Advantage:
-Can block the turn after it came into play. (When thats relevant, you've already lost)
Lion's Advantage:
-Doesn't need to attack when there is a >0/>2 on the other side of the field.
So, lets take a situation and compare them..
Your opponent has a >0/>2 critter (Say, Tarmogoyf) and you've got a Maniac without any pump in your hand. You'll have to attack, your Goblin dies and you're going to lose. If the Maniac was a Lion instead, you could've past the turn and your opponent could've done two things:
-Hold the Goyf back to block in case you have pump+Berserk.
-Attack with the Goyf.
In the first case you've created a "Goyfstill" with a 2/1 dude. in the second case, you can attack with it.
Maniac > Lion vs Goblins. If you are on the play and play Mania/Lion and the opponent plays Lackey you can't block with the Lion.
If you have a Maniac in your hand without any pump don't play it. You must Mulligan or play another critter. This deck must win in the first 3-5 turns. If you get to topdeck you depend of your luck.
If you have many Goblins in your meta play Maniac. If not, play what you want. They are almost equal.
If you have many Goblins in your meta play Maniac. If not, play what you want. They are almost equal.
If u willing to block first turn, then play maniac, but, even against goblin, you shouldn't kill your creatures that way...
I preffer the ability to hold my attack until I can kill the opponent instead of just attack every turn and possibly block in first turn...
One thing is set, it's even Tattermunge or Jungle lion... player's choice here.
IMO, 17 lands is just too much. 14 are enough, 12 could be okay, too. But 17? We play cheap spells for a reason.
Slippery Bogle is a must-include. Trollshroud is one of our best weapons.
Actually it's enough for us... we don't want to be locked... and if you consider, Thresh also run fast things with like 18 lands... I simply works. No flood, no lack. And gives us the possibility of running random 3cc sideboard.
Bogle is a auto-fit if you are willing to combo every game. It's main disadvantage is not being a 2/, and so, slower than Elite, Lion, Nettle, and such... If you intend to play a more Aggro-ish version then a Combo-ish one, then maybe you could replace him, or silhana... Personally, I like Bogle.
leander?
09-27-2009, 01:55 PM
Maniac > Lion vs Goblins. If you are on the play and play Mania/Lion and the opponent plays Lackey you can't block with the Lion.
You can´t block with the Maniac either. As far as I know Lackey hasn´t got haste (Thank God for that), and next turn your maniac is tapped. If you're on the draw, however, your opponent only has to wait one turn before attcking with the lackey and he can connect. So I kindof fail to see why Maniac is so much better against Lackey.
Seriously, having a creature that reduces the number of choices is really, realy bad.
Updated main page with some card information, and an up-to-date version of the deck.
Other information, matchup analysis and thechs yet to be done.
lorddotm
09-28-2009, 07:52 AM
Why not run Elvish Spirit Guide?
Barsoom
09-28-2009, 07:54 AM
Updated main page with some card information, and an up-to-date version of the deck.
Other information, matchup analysis and thechs yet to be done.
Nice work, but i think you should change 4 Jungle Lions for 4 Nettle Sentinel; i undestand that Lion vs Maniac can be a personal preference, but the Sentinel is in almost every way better than both Lion and Maniac. As you said too, in this deck is more than 90% of the time a 2/2 for 1 with vigilance.
Why not run Elvish Spirit Guide?
Mostly because of the card disadvantage. If you keep the mana growing thigh and steady, you will be able to combo turn 3 more easily, with more options at the table. Since you can't combo without creatures, and you most likely won't be able to combo for 20 all the time, you want a growing curve on your creatures for the remaining damage.
Nice work, but i think you should change 4 Jungle Lions for 4 Nettle Sentinel; i undestand that Lion vs Maniac can be a personal preference, but the Sentinel is in almost every way better than both Lion and Maniac. As you said too, in this deck is more than 90% of the time a 2/2 for 1 with vigilance.
Added the options at the page.
Personally, i think:
Jungle lion:
- 2/1 than will most likely always attack when he can, or when you wish to.
Nettle sentinel
- 2/2 that will most likely be a 2/2 with vengeance, but can be locked by out-of-cards
For the combo situation, both do the same, since you will cast green spells, and don't care about creature thoughtness
For the before-combo situation, where you want to do high damage, Nettle will be better if you have spare green cards, usualy permanents, being a 2/2 vigilance, or at least a 2/2.
Jungle will be better if the table is clean on the enemy side, and you don't have loads of spare permanents.
On a after-combo case, Jungle seems better since he doesn't need green cards to be an option.
I preffer Nettle, since I don't want the game to be that long.
EDIT:
- Updated loads of card info @ mainpage.
- Need results, percentage and such, to post @ matchups
Please, don't let the thread die! ^^
thorin_the_king
09-29-2009, 11:32 AM
hi there, I like to see a thread about this deck in the source. I would like to share my list with you. I've been playing berserk stompy for 2 years now, and now with VoVW this deck gains a bit more consistency I think. Anyway here's my list:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
10 [B] Forest (3)
3 [US] Gaea's Cradle
4 [B] Forest (2)
// Creatures
4 [GP] Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 [PLC] Kavu Predator
4 [GP] Silhana Ledgewalker
4 [EVE] Slippery Bogle
3 [EVE] Cold-Eyed Selkie
4 [EVE] Nettle Sentinel
// Spells
4 [B] Berserk
4 [MM] Invigorate
4 [TSP] Might of Old Krosa
4 [UL] Rancor
4 [ZEN] Vines of Vastwood
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [MI] Seeds of Innocence
SB: 4 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 4 [ON] Naturalize
I have changed recently the elite slots for sentinels cause as most of you said, it's 90% a 2/2 with vigilance in this deck. Been able to cast an invigorate and block a goyf it's good :)
And then you'll ask why 3 cradle's and selkies. Cradle is crappy if it's the only land in your 1st hand, but otherwise it speeds the deck a lot. Selkie is always useful in matches where you stall and you don't have the spells needed to combo out. The islandwalk part is a nightmare for every blue deck if it sticks. I don't care to play rancor+berserk in selkie cause that means 6 cards, but if you play this in another creature you're left with nothing in hand and in topdeck mode. anyway i encourage you to test it before dismissing it, for me it has proven it's inclussion. Maybe with more and more testing i will cut her, but not now.
Thoughts?
soiber2000
09-29-2009, 02:18 PM
I am a big fan of berserk stompy decks, I made some top4 in the past at my local shop with a RG deck with rancor, berserk, fling and burn. I supose mono green is the way to go, but I would like to make some questions for those who have tested the most recent list:
1- is vines of vastwood a good inclusion? I haven't tested it, it seems good on paper but i don't know if it's as 4 of. Any test confirmation?
2- would be interesting to test a GW deck with qasali pridemage, maybe watchwolf, swords (lifegain is good with predator)? I think it deserves a consideration at least.
thank you
NecroYawgmoth
09-29-2009, 04:08 PM
Sideboardchoices to add:
CotV 0 against Combo
Rushwood Legate against Blue Stuff and LS
maybe Compost against decks like Pox and Sui, but I have no experience with that...
Icapica
09-30-2009, 06:21 AM
Sideboardchoices to add:
CotV 0 against Combo
Rushwood Legate against Blue Stuff and LS
maybe Compost against decks like Pox and Sui, but I have no experience with that...
I don't think we can help the combo matchup much even if we dedicated most of the sideboard for that matchup. If there's not a lot of combo in the meta, I'd just ignore it and if there is a lot of combo, Berserk Stompy is the wrong deck to play.
I used to play Rushwood Legates, but I found them to be too weak to be worth the sideboard slot. A vanilla 2/1 just isn't enough in my opinion. I usually only run Vexing Shusher to help against blue. If the meta was very heavily blue, I might also consider Cold-Eyed Selkie. That card is a beast in some matchups.
@Icapica
Well, they are options nevertheless...
Would you give up playing the deck if you thought you meta was too combo-ish? And what about if you don't know your meta? Isn't it easier packing some extra sb and try to win the post-board, and steal some wins with faster combo game 1? Even if your meta has too many combos, every single meta got lots of controls too.
btw you´re talking about a combo from time to time. cant figure out what you mean with that. does someone mind to explain me?
Otter
09-30-2009, 01:17 PM
btw you´re talking about a combo from time to time. cant figure out what you mean with that. does someone mind to explain me?
The "combo" of this deck is Berserking a dude up to around twenty power and breaking someone's face with it. It's not a combo in the traditional sense of the word, but it steals games just the same.
btw you´re talking about a combo from time to time. cant figure out what you mean with that. does someone mind to explain me?
Well, a Combo is a combination of effects on a chain, in which if it's not broke by some other effects, it wins you the game.
In our case, we combine a creature + pump effects + berserk to deal hard damage.
It's basic knowledge. If you like to know more about it, read the Articles (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=609).
EDIT:
Back to the Vines of Vastwood issue, my tests so far are not that awesome...
While Bogle and Silhana do the job, VoV have been too hard to cast with full power.
Even so it has helped once or twice, casted after bolts...
I'm using this config of pumping, without old krosa:
4 zerks
4 rancors
4 invigorate
3 seals
4 VoV's
Why no old krosa? because i wanted the seal to be cast a turn before the combo, since I'm willing to use the extra mana for VoV... And it was just for the test sakes...
Even though, i'm considering using like 2-of VoV, mixed with Krosas and Seals.
Icapica
10-02-2009, 07:49 AM
@Icapica
Well, they are options nevertheless...
Would you give up playing the deck if you thought you meta was too combo-ish? And what about if you don't know your meta? Isn't it easier packing some extra sb and try to win the post-board, and steal some wins with faster combo game 1? Even if your meta has too many combos, every single meta got lots of controls too.
I probably wouldn't give up, but that's just because I can't afford to build another deck at the moment. However, if I could afford that, I'd build another deck and I'd use it instead of stompy if I expected a lot of combo.
I try to keep the stompy sideboard such that I have a decent match against everything but combo.
NecroYawgmoth
10-02-2009, 09:30 AM
...what does your Sideborad look like Icapica, and what do you guys think, is the best overall sideboard?
I probably wouldn't give up, but that's just because I can't afford to build another deck at the moment. However, if I could afford that, I'd build another deck and I'd use it instead of stompy if I expected a lot of combo.
I try to keep the stompy sideboard such that I have a decent match against everything but combo.
Well, of course, if, for example, 70% of your meta is certainly combo, them probably you should build up a MUC+ 3Sphere or some heavy control like that, and rock it out loud!
But most of the cases, even if you see a lot of combos, aggro and control will always be a great part of the meta, with Threshold and Landstill, and now merfolks and such...
Even in a heavly combo meta, i would try to make the best possible sideboard against them, and pray that I never find that many combos...
Every deck option has a badmatch anyways. Our luck is that we are so good against the most played deck in the format.
Anyways, I would like to know about sideboard used by here too...
I use the standard vexing, tormod, naturalize, seeds, and a single Blessing.
Otter
10-02-2009, 01:28 PM
Back to the Vines of Vastwood issue, my tests so far are not that awesome...
While Bogle and Silhana do the job, VoV have been too hard to cast with full power.
I've been having similar results. My current pump package is:
4 Vines
4 Krosa
4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
4 Berserk
I want to shoot myself if I ever have two Vines in hand at the same time and they're definitely not easy on your mana in any situation. Running four of them doesn't seem to be practical, though they're certainly useful at times, so I'm not willing to cut them entirely (at least so far). I think that I'll try something like a 2/2 split on them and Seals or possibly 2 Vines, 3 Seal, 3 Krosa.
Esper3k
10-02-2009, 03:18 PM
I've been a big fan of Seals in this deck because you're spending your mana up front saving up for the fatal turn.
Vines seems good in theory, but needs testing.
umbowta
10-02-2009, 04:59 PM
I would really like to believe that this deck could be built optimally without splashing (I have a fetish for mono-green decks), but I simply don't buy it. Splashing gives you access to so many better cards, the first of which is Wild Nacatl, which is pretty much far-and-away the best aggressive one-drop ever printed.
I know exactly what you mean, however, I'm still torn between the comfort of mono green and the addition of other colors to boost the potential.
Here's a little something I tried a while back:
4 Nacatl
4 Kird Ape (Hello Goblin Guide)
4 Skarrgan Pit Skulk
4 Silhana Ledgewalker(Slippery Bogle wants to be in here somewhere now too)
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Kavu Predator
4 Invigorate
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Rancor
4 Berserk
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
The Lightning Bolts have been Fanfriggintastic. They give you that little bit extra reach and allow you to Berserk a dude on turn 2 for 16-18 damage, untap and bolt for the win on turn 3. Goblin Guide is also just what the doctor ordered...in theory. I often found myself wishing for anything decent with haste and Uktabi Drake was the only option before GG. The Drake of course got cut because of its' echo liability.
LordEvilTeaCup
10-03-2009, 12:39 AM
Mana 18
11 Forest
1 Pendelhaven
4 Elvish Spirit guide
2 Land Grant
Creatures 19
3 Slippery Bogle
4 Skarrgan Pit-Sulk
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Talaria's Battalion
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
Spells 23
4 Berserk
4 Bounty of the Hunt
3 Briar Shield
4 Rancor
4 Might of old Krosa
4 Manamorphose
Talaria's Battalion is an alternative to Goyf and Predator that is often overlooked. 4/3 trample body with no reliance on gy and no need to play spells that just make killing your opponent harder if you don't have a Predator out. Of course the drawback is there, but Bounty of the Hunt has long been deemed playable here and I would argue Manamorphose is also a worthy addition. It effectively makes your deck 56 cards, enables Battalion which is a strong beater, and although ever so slightly boosts your chances of getting the good stuff such as Berserk. Helps Nettle untap too, so you don't have to play crap like Jungle Lion...
Land Grant is underrated imo, because it's a forest that can pitch to Bounty or Dryad if you use her. Using 2 is reasonable, because you don't auto lose to discard or FOW. It's not like you would be totally reliant on it with 16 other mana sources. Also helps enable you to play Battalion. Yeah revealing your hand hurts, but usually I find myself using it two turn when I am about to drop a lot of my hand anyway.
Briar Shield imo is better than Seal of Strength in a deck that uses Bogles and Ledgewalkers. Especially with Ledgewalker it's definitely an all star. The singleton Pendelhaven is optional and could be better as a forest, but is nice with Bogle, Ledgewalker, and sometimes Pit-Sulk.
Another testing I'm working in is using Vine Dryads...
As I told before, it is so multi-functional, and so fast, that it's drawback isn't a problem for me at all...
I like a lot it's forest evasion, it's turn 0 into battlefield, and it's chalice avoidance.
Quite recomended to tests.
This is the core creatures i use when testing it:
4 Vine Dryad
4 Slippery Boble
4 Skarrgan Pit Skulk
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Kavu Predator
2 Tarmogoyf
And any other filler to the remaining spots. I run 2 Nettle, since I use 18 Lands, 24 Creatures, 18 Pumps...
LordEvilTeaCup
10-04-2009, 07:41 PM
Another testing I'm working in is using Vine Dryads...
As I told before, it is so multi-functional, and so fast, that it's drawback isn't a problem for me at all...
I like a lot it's forest evasion, it's turn 0 into battlefield, and it's chalice avoidance.
I don't like how vulnerable it is too spot removal. Not worth the risk imo. Why not Nettle Sentinel? His drawback hardly is a problem. I think he belongs on the list of core creatures to use. Kavu Predator is overrated here, and his only saving grace is his trample. I mean, his other ability can be broken, but is it worth playing Invigorate? I mean invigorate is free and all, but kinda hurts if they swords your dude as they are harder to kill and you are out a creature and a card. Frankly, I am don't think any of the 2cc options are that great, but I think people should give Battalion a try. Evasion and big body. Goyf could turn out to be the best as he always does. He will probably be big enough half the time and rancor + berserk give him evasion.
In other news, Silhana Ledgewalker is a true hero.
NecroYawgmoth
10-04-2009, 08:27 PM
IMO the thing about Kavu/Invigorate is that they are both good on their own...
Invigorate is good because... you can use it in combination with Berserk, you can use it for combat tricks [which is like a kill spell (destroy target blocking or blocked creature, opponent gains 3 life)]
Kavu is good without Invigorate, because it has an evasive ability, and it is good against stuff like Kitchen Finks, Wellwishers, etc. by just sitting on the board...
Together they're just super effective, and with Berserk they are just unfair
IMO they are both core of the deck...
about Batallion...
I know it isn't a bad card at all, but you need to play a green spell first (and Land Grant and BotH are BAD cards for that deck), and that is a hard requirement to play her...
I also think thant you don't want to play more cc2 creatures besides Ledgewalker and Kavu
about Vine Dryad
I hate that card in this deck...
It cost's you an other green card, means, it gives you MASSIVE carddisadvantage in a fast deck like this (the main reason why BotH isn't played,and why most people don't play ESG), and it just has 1!!! power... sure, it has Flash and Goyfwalk, but the carddisadvantage for just an 1/3 isn't worth it (even Scryb Sprites are much better IMO)
so far...
YawG
I hate that card in this deck...
It cost's you an other green card, means, it gives you MASSIVE carddisadvantage in a fast deck like this (the main reason why BotH isn't played,and why most people don't play ESG), and it just has 1!!! power... sure, it has Flash and Goyfwalk, but the carddisadvantage for just an 1/3 isn't worth it (even Scryb Sprites are much better IMO)
so far...
YawG
Hmmm... My results on testing proves it better than this, at minimum, and proves great in some situations...
First of all, power 1 for 0cc and cast in opponents turn is way faster than scryb, or even nettle.
Thoughtness 3 is under-considered by everyone, but a 3/3 rancored dryad turn 1 is always great. As for a 2/2 skarrgan turn 1 because of the single dmg dryad causes.
Goyfwalk is walk against way more than half the format.
Choosing the right card to ditch so that you don't lose too much power in card disadvantage is an art. Quite hard indeed. Requires lot of know-what-to-do against each kind of opponent. The "massive" when there are 2 of it is reduced, since you ditch one to the other.
BotH isn't used because we have 1cc pumps to do same or better than it does. 1cc isn's such a problem to find. Want you to find a 1cc creature with forestwalk, flash, 1/3 and which avoids chalice/cb+top/snare
Anyways, I've found dryad to be great due to it's evasion capabilities (forestwalk and 4cc). It's personal choice, but if you don't fell like testing it... ok then...
In other news, Silhana Ledgewalker is a true hero.
QFT.
btw, i use nettle AND dryad. I cut skyshroud elite...
LordEvilTeaCup
10-04-2009, 10:11 PM
IMO the thing about Kavu/Invigorate is that they are both good on their own...
Invigorate is good because... you can use it in combination with Berserk, you can use it for combat tricks [which is like a kill spell (destroy target blocking or blocked creature, opponent gains 3 life)]
Kavu is good without Invigorate, because it has an evasive ability, and it is good against stuff like Kitchen Finks, Wellwishers, etc. by just sitting on the board...
Those are some good points, but not sure how relevant being good against Finks and Wellwishers is. Also, is the life the opponent gains better than giving up the card you would lose with Bounty of the Hunt? At first blush it seems obvious, but in a deck that wants to kill as soon as possible it could be close. Also generally with Kavu he will be just a 2/2 with trample. I guess that is good enough with all the pump, but it still feels underwhelming. The magic that is Kavu/Invigorate/Berserk is nuts, but how often does that really happen?
@Gui: You convinced me to test Dryad :)
NecroYawgmoth
10-05-2009, 07:25 AM
@Gui_Brasil:
...about the don't feel like testing thing... I've played Vine Dryad nearly 1 year in Berserkless Stompy, and I never really liked it...
but yeah, maybe it's just personal choice
YawG
Tangle.Wire
10-05-2009, 08:38 AM
Here is the "more casual" Stompy list i am running since around 1999 with some mods over the years:
4 Rogue Elephant
4 Vine Dryad
4 Skyshroud Elite
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Tarmogoyf
1 River Boa
4 Gigant growth
4 Berserk
4 Rancor
4 Bounty of the Hunt
3 Winter Orb
4 Land Grand
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
9 Forest
4 Taiga
Sideboard is changing pretty often, i am not sure to run a red splash for shusher and gutteral response, pyroblasts or black for extirpates.
Tangle,
This version seems quite playable... I just wouldn't play 4 rogues, and would cut taiga's since guttural and shusher requires only green...
Actually, what I would do to that list:
-4 taiga
-1 Land Grant (don't like to depend on them, but nice backup to Vine and BotH)
+5 Forest
-1 Rogue
+1 Quirion
-4 growth
+4 Might of old Krosa -or- seal of strenght
And find a way to include silhanas and bogle, since they cost less than candies in a corner store and wreck removals.
Seems a lot of mods, but it would yet look a lot like your list...
When i used to run both Vine Dryad and Bounty, and back them up with Land Grant and Elvishs, i just found it hardly consistant... You just HAVE to ditch one for another to get less disadvantage, and i'm not sure if that's good...
Tangle.Wire
10-05-2009, 10:10 AM
Tangle,
This version seems quite playable... I just wouldn't play 4 rogues, and would cut taiga's since guttural and shusher requires only green...
Actually, what I would do to that list:
-4 taiga
-1 Land Grant (don't like to depend on them, but nice backup to Vine and BotH)
+5 Forest
-1 Rogue
+1 Quirion
-4 growth
+4 Might of old Krosa -or- seal of strenght
And find a way to include silhanas and bogle, since they cost less than candies in a corner store and wreck removals.
Seems a lot of mods, but it would yet look a lot like your list...
When i used to run both Vine Dryad and Bounty, and back them up with Land Grant and Elvishs, i just found it hardly consistant... You just HAVE to ditch one for another to get less disadvantage, and i'm not sure if that's good...
Maybe its just cause of playing stompy since...ever i think ^^ i just know how to settle up my cards to win, i like that stompy doesn't need to mulligan normally and even with bounties dryads and so on the winter orb is needed. I
I thought of cutting the elephants but i am a friend of playsets and since i run tarmogoyf in my stompy i don't need 4 thats true.
The taiga actually are forests, i forgot to change it in the list i copied.
For Gigant Growth i am not completly sure, i always get nostalgic if i see it ^^ normally i would prefer seals.
How you guys feel of playing spoils of the vault+bayou (or other tutors) in the maindeck? as stompy normally is fast enough to win if it can stop 1-2 solutions, so on the earlier days i remember awesome Stompy lists which used Demonic Consultation to find Artifact/Enchantment/Random removal.
Maybe its just cause of playing stompy since...ever i think ^^ i just know how to settle up my cards to win
That's the truth, indeed. People usually think there's nothing to learn about this deck, but it's not true. Guess that's the same reason I still play Vine Dryad, even in this most up-to-date version.
, i like that stompy doesn't need to mulligan normally and even with bounties dryads and so on the winter orb is needed.
I like winter orb, but I don't fell like it fits general legacy meta anymore... it's workaround is easy for lots of decks. Anyway, it's a nice card =)
For Gigant Growth i am not completly sure, i always get nostalgic if i see it ^^ normally i would prefer seals.
Well, giant growth is such a good all-around card... it's better than krosa in unexpected block situations, and it's always +3, simple as that... And it's better than seal in the "poker" style. Hold it and pretend you don't have it. =)
Also, i like it with Nettle Sentinel to goyf-block A LOT.
How you guys feel of playing spoils of the vault+bayou (or other tutors) in the maindeck? as stompy normally is fast enough to win if it can stop 1-2 solutions, so on the earlier days i remember awesome Stompy lists which used Demonic Consultation to find Artifact/Enchantment/Random removal.
I don't fell like the deck needs splash, because i think it already lack manabase consistancy... but it's an option... just need to take some extra special care about it.
Tangle.Wire
10-05-2009, 11:19 AM
So for Winter Orb its almost another play style faktor, i rather have Problems to control decks like countertop as they have explosives/countertop and those wreck our deck. I also would say landstill is terrible but i had some luck against landstill in the past too. So for those Matchups i throw up the Winter Orb as it slows down blue decks and even if they can handle it, it takes 1-2 turns till they found/played their solutions to it that gives me 1-2 turns to swing around with other stuff, in fact thats why i dont want to remove the dryads.
Sorry for my terrible english gramma =)
SO,
I want to post Matchs in the front page, but i don't want to write bullshits and nonsenses there, so I want to know people's oppinion about our Good and Bad matchs, and also our Even matchs before writing...
Here are a few decks I think we should be worried about, and deserve to have a inner look into:
Tempo Thresh, CB Thresh, ANT, TES, Landstill, Zoo, Merfolks, Goblins, White Stax, Dragon Stompy, Ichorid, Team America, Burn.
What you all consider of being good, bad, and 50-50? Explanations will be always welcome.
I've opinions on my own, but opinions may vary, you know.
Otter
10-05-2009, 01:15 PM
Tempo Thresh, CB Thresh, ANT, TES, Landstill, Zoo, Merfolks, Goblins, White Stax, Dragon Stompy, Ichorid, Team America, Burn.
What you all consider of being good, bad, and 50-50? Explanations will be always welcome.
I've opinions on my own, but opinions may vary, you know.
Haven't extensively tested all of these, but some quick comments from what I've seen:
Tempo Thresh: Tempo Thresh is hugely metagamed to beat legacy's decks and a lot of their stuff is just horrible against stompy. Stifle is nearly useless, Goose is awful, Spell Snare can only hit our Ledgewalkers/Goyfs/Kavus, and Forcing 1cc dudes is embarrassing. With that said, they can easily blow us out with a quick Goyf backed up by burn. Make sure to play around F/I and Bolt as much as possible, try to resolve Ledgewalkers and Boggles and it's pretty good from there.
CB Thresh: Much worse matchup. Game one you're praying to race them before they assemble Countertop and games two and three you're doing pretty much the same while trying to resolve a Naturalize or Reverent Silence.
ANT/TES: Difficult, our kill is generally a few turns slower than theirs and if they snag your Berserk with Duress, they're almost assured to go off first. Their deck is just better at goldfishing and we don't have any hatebears.
Landstill: Depends how many EEs they are packing and how counter-heavy their draw is. If they kept something like Counterspell, Force, etc they tend to get run over quickly. On the other hand, if they EE our first few plays and then get recurring Factories it can be suck.
Zoo: Their guys are bigger and they have lots of removal in Path/burn, which sucks. However, they have pretty much no answer to us comboing on a Boggle or Ledgewalker, so mulligan aggressively to find them. It's pretty unwinnable unless you do.
Merfolk: Not difficult to flatten them before they can get enough Lords online to put up a defense. Lists packing MD Jitte can be problematic, also watch for Threads of Disloyalty out of the board. Note that Rancor is absolutely nuts here, forces them into all sorts of awful trades. Scryb Ranger is a house too.
Goblins: This matchup is a joke preboard unless they port-lock you very quickly. Otherwise their guys are just too slow and they lack options to prevent you from setting up a combo. Postboard gets a bit worse since they're usually packing Pyrokinesis, Pyroclasm, or Fallout. Try to keep some pump open if possible, if they can stall long enough to get Seige-Gang on the board it gets ugly. Should not be hard to grab the match though.
Ichorid: Not hard for them to fish you game one and then scrape up game 2 or 3 for the round when you don't find a hate piece. It's a lot easier to race them than ANT, since we can board hate, but still bad.
Dragon Stompy: Like all Dragon Stompy matchups, either they draw their stuff and win or they stumble and don't. Seeds is great here.
Stax: Worse than Dragon Stompy, as Magus and Armageddon hit us while Moon effects don't.
Team America: They can randomly win off a Sinkhole, but a lack of Stifle and Waste targets kinda neuters their main gameplan. Main problem is trying to get through Stalkers and Goyfs.
Burn: Goldfish fight, depends on lists.
Aggro Loam: Try to keep pump spells open at all times otherwise Devastating Dreams = scoop phase. They can also Wish for Perish, which is a pain. Oh and maindeck Chalice. Neat. This matchup is pretty awful.
Additional Note: Be careful of anything packing black, always try to play around Perish post-board.
Thank you for sharing!
Well, who's next? xD
As soon as I write about 'em, i post here...
Tangle.Wire
10-06-2009, 07:35 AM
Thank you for sharing!
Well, who's next? xD
As soon as I write about 'em, i post here...
As you see on the Testings above....its useless for us to analyse matchups for Stompy as the only plan we can affort is to stomp them before they win/lock us. So i don't care which Matchup i get as my Strategy won't change, maybe there could be some brainstorming about what sideboard options we can choose, but there are not that many cards we should board, i think around 4-6 Artefakt/Enchantment solutions, 4 Graveyard hate, Imo relics. And maybe some irrelevant slots like pithing needles.
Also here is a G/W List i am working on since a half year now but i had not many tournaments here so i didn't want to test "casual" decks there.
Here's the list:
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Kavu Predator
3 Quasali Pridemage
2 Jötun Grunt
4 Skyshroud Elite
3 Isamaru, hound of Konda
2 Quirion Ranger
2 Wax/Wayne
4 Rancor
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
3 Swords to plowshares
4 Land Grand
4 Aether Vial
3 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
7 Forest
Sideboard:
1 Wax/Wayne
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Choke
2 Reverent Silence
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Quasali Pridemage
3 gaddock teeg
As you see on the Testings above....its useless for us to analyse matchups for Stompy as the only plan we can affort is to stomp them before they win/lock us. So i don't care which Matchup i get as my Strategy won't change, maybe there could be some brainstorming about what sideboard options we can choose, but there are not that many cards we should board, i think around 4-6 Artefakt/Enchantment solutions, 4 Graveyard hate, Imo relics. And maybe some irrelevant slots like pithing needles.
I think it's quite not truth. We don't have only 1 game plan. Although one looks a lot like the other, Combo is different from aggro, and our stance for each matchup may, and should, vary.
For example, against Aggro-Loam or Zoo, we are willing to "combo" as soon as possible, with any creature we can find to be in table. But for CB+Top, we can win by focusing on having more creatures in table and hold our combo-try in hand for the appropriate timing.
And nevertheless, match-up analysis is more likely to be "how favorable" the match-up is, and possible good and bad choices against each.
I also aggre that we should discuss Sideboarding based on the match-ups. And also, try to figure the worse match-ups so that we can make a generic Sideboard.
NecroYawgmoth
10-06-2009, 08:46 AM
Yeah, I also think, that the Sideboard, is a good discussion, we need to start...
...but what do you think is needed in the Sideboard???
IMO
4 Vexing Shusher are an absolute must
3-4 Seeds of Innocence (everybody plays it)
are needed...
about the rest, I don't know... maybe 2-4 Graveyardhates (Crypt vs Relic discussion)
maybe more Artifact/Enchantment hate [(are 2 Reverent Silence needed) Prison, Propaganda, Enchantress, Moat, Worship...], do we need additional/more Artifact&Enchantment removal (like Naturalize)
do we have the space for anticombocards, or should we ignore that MU?
YawG
Tangle.Wire
10-06-2009, 08:57 AM
Yeah, I also think, that the Sideboard, is a good discussion, we need to start...
...but what do you think is needed in the Sideboard???
IMO
4 Vexing Shusher are an absolute must
3-4 Seeds of Innocence (everybody plays it)
are needed...
about the rest, I don't know... maybe 2-4 Graveyardhates (Crypt vs Relic discussion)
maybe more Artifact/Enchantment hate [(are 2 Reverent Silence needed) Prison, Propaganda, Enchantress, Moat, Worship...], do we need additional/more Artifact&Enchantment removal (like Naturalize)
do we have the space for anticombocards, or should we ignore that MU?
YawG
I think Sideboard Slots for Graveyard hate shouldn't be more than 3 as we don't need to board much against dredge as the matchup is fine with/without crypts. I think Relics are to slow here even with 1 mana. For Naturalize/Grip etc i found out boarding it for everything beside Countertop lock a Set of Oxidize and Wax//Wane is pretty good. Against landstill/countertop i am currently giving Root Maze a try as addition to Winter orb.
I think Reverent Silence is pretty good as 6 life is not that worse even if you play the Kavu list.
Normally i wouldn't say something like that but: Won't Jitte be a good add on for most matchups? it works excellent with trample damage and can win us the combats against Goofies etc.
I think Sideboard Slots for Graveyard hate shouldn't be more than 3 as we don't need to board much against dredge as the matchup is fine with/without crypts. I think Relics are to slow here even with 1 mana. For Naturalize/Grip etc i found out boarding it for everything beside Countertop lock a Set of Oxidize and Wax//Wane is pretty good.
Aggreed. 3 is fine for us, i usualy run 3 tormods.
We usually run seeds over oxidize, and wax//wane is a good 2color option.
Seeds is just as better as it is for Kavu.
Against landstill/countertop i am currently giving Root Maze a try as addition to Winter orb.
You probably should try some Vexing Shusher against CounterTop, and even agains Landstill, once they will need to kill him as soon as possible.
I think Reverent Silence is pretty good as 6 life is not that worse even if you play the Kavu list.
Only game I prefer Reverent over any other hate is enchantress...
Normally i wouldn't say something like that but: Won't Jitte be a good add on for most matchups? it works excellent with trample damage and can win us the combats against Goofies etc.
Jitte goes more aggro against our aggro matchups, in which we are willing to keep our creatures on board, and "combo" them up. That's probably why it's not used: It doen't save your critters and ins't fast enough for the combo.
I want to do some further tests with Pithing Neddle... It seems to be such an awesome sideboard option... need some results to prove it though...
NecroYawgmoth
10-06-2009, 10:44 AM
Pithing Needle is a no-brain card somehow...
every time I played in in my Stompy Sideboard, I thought something like: "This card is not bad, but it's also not the optimum"
IMO it's awesome on paper, but not really needed...
Pithing Needle is a no-brain card somehow...
every time I played in in my Stompy Sideboard, I thought something like: "This card is not bad, but it's also not the optimum"
IMO it's awesome on paper, but not really needed...
Could you tell us what you used it against?
I fell like i could use it against aggro-loam, but there again, aggro loam should be a good match.
Against combos, LED based, and belcher/Painter... and Ichorid...
And against CB-Top, but Shusher + Krosan should handle it better too...
But there are a lot of decks that get hurt by well played needle... dunno if it's our focus thou.
NecroYawgmoth
10-06-2009, 12:28 PM
against NQG and Stuff, you don't need it because Shusher does the Job better...
against Decks packing mass Deeds, EEs, etc. you just dont need to overextend with your creatures...
against Goblins I named Vial, but we don't need to, because we are faster...
(same goes for Merfolk)
CotV is better against Combo than Needle is...
The only MU where Needle was great was against Survival...
I really see no MU except Survival where you really want Needle...
...it isn't a bad card, its an good allaround card, if you don't know, what you could play... but IMO not really needed
YawG
zabuza
10-06-2009, 12:31 PM
In my stompy version(i´ve playing this deck more than two years or so and i´ve tried lot of versions). While Cesar always liked monocolored i´ve always liked with a little splash of red and/or white. We had argued sometimes about that but always he has preferred the MONO_G version and i always preffered multicolored.
Currently i´m playing hidden herd. Everybody nowdays plays nonbasic lands (fetches are everywhere and duals too). Is a 3/3 for G so is basicly a nacatl but sometimes better. Because i play multicolored I´m playing in this deck nacatls too so i have 8 3/3 creatures for one mana. Beside of that i´m playing silhanas, kavus, qasalis and in the last version i was trying viashino slaughtermaster (they are good enough but not as impresive as they may look like on paper).
I´m trying to find a good replacement for them and i´m thinking on the new goblin (goblin guide because his haste a 2 power hability ) could be enough to have chances of winning on second turn.
My manabase has 8 (G-R, G-W) fetches and 8 duals(same) and 4 forest but i´m trying to improve it because i think adding more fetches (W-R and basics) could be better and reducing the land count could be good too.
Because i´m playing white i use Swords to phlowshares MD. They are great because pumps predators at the same time we remove the worst creature the oppoenent has. Believe me, they saved me lot of times and i think they are needed in the multicolored version.
I´m looking for another dude to play with. In the last two years I´ve tried:
Talara´s batallion (his drawback is heavy)
Jotun Grunt (Big body, helps against any decks, makes little goyfs and so) but in firsts turns where we need to play creatures they are not good at all.
VExing shusher : they are awesome, but more SDB material.
Watchwolf:they are good, if i don´t find anything more i´m playing them.
Slippery boggle: they are good but has a small body. They are only attacking when you can combo out and because nowdays there are lot of big creatures to deal with i´m not very sold about them because they can´t evade.
Skyshroud elite: a 2/3 is not imppresive at all. The left my list lot of time ago
Kird Ape: Same as elites but worse because R is their cost
Tarmogoyf:A middle-late game creature. I´ve played them and they are good but i´m trying to play a deck without them.
Nettle sentinel: Sometimes you run out of green cards in your hand. Sometimes this dude is unuseful and i don´t like this times so i´m not playing it anymore in this deck.
Skarrgan : Good and bad, Has an awesome evasing hability but it needs anybody to connect before they comes into play because a 1/1 is not as impresive and a 2/2 is not too. They are good with rancor, but nowdays there are lot of removal everywhere so i´m not playing them now.
Jungle Lion: very circunstancial creature. I´m never like them
Tattermunge: same a Lion
Scrib sprites: small body, evasive but very small.
Troll Ascetic:Powerhouse but lot of expensive. 3CC is much more than we want to pay for a critter.
River Boa: Not bad nor good. Evasive and regenerable but it´s still sords/path objetive and needs to keep open mana so not good for this deck.
vinde dryad, Rogue elephant,......They are not playable nowdays. Perhaps 10 years ago they were the beaters but never more.
Any ideas or suggestions?
For pumping now i´m using:
Might of old krosa
invigorate
Berserk
Vines of the vastwood(they were rancors before).
Note that because my creatures are bigger (3/3 as usual) i don´t need rancors usually to combo out, and since creatures are removed when you try to rancor them (2x1) i´ve tried to avoid that.
Ideas suggestions?
Could you please list it? And results? Matchups? =)
EDIT: By what i've seen in your crossed-away list, you could use some cutting berserk and play Zoo =P
Right, kidding here, k?
No, seriously, I need the list to reach any conclusion... you just crossed like half of our basic list away...
As for now, I would just say rancor isn't good at all as part of the combo. But it's good enough for it and Great for the Aggro role. That's why it's there.
EDIT 2: My bad, seems like you almost already posted the list.
From what I can see:
20 or something Lands
4 Nacatl
4 Hidden Herd
4 Kavu
4 Silhana's
4? Quasali
4 Looking for something
4 Might of old Krosa
4 Invigorate
4 Berserk
4 Vines of vastwood
4 Swords to plowshares
Lightning bolts?
Well, what i can see is that you run Berserk as an alternate plan to a zoo...
Dunno about 4VoVW, maybe 2/2 split with rancor? with seal?
Hidden Herd is, indeed, a great card... there is no much walkaroud (and i indeed forgot posting it in the first page.). Just wish you are not facing much gobblins/merfolks, and you will be fine.
NecroYawgmoth
10-06-2009, 01:58 PM
...I think Berserk Stompy should stay Mono-G
...if we splash good cards from R and W, we build more and more in this direction, and then, we end in playing zoo...
YawG
Otter
10-06-2009, 02:47 PM
...I think Berserk Stompy should stay Mono-G
...if we splash good cards from R and W, we build more and more in this direction, and then, we end in playing zoo...
YawG
Agreed. Not that I want to be a dick to people and say "get out of the thread" or anything, I'm up for discussion on it. But if there's going to be discussion, lets do it right. Someone needs to point out a good reason why G/r/w Stompy isn't just a bad version of Zoo. I think the default assumption that Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, and Price are better than Invigorate, Might, and Berserk is pretty solid -- who's on the other side of that argument?
zabuza
10-06-2009, 02:50 PM
My list is the following:
// Lands
4 [UNH] Forest
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [U] Taiga
4 [U] Savannah
// Creatures
4 [PLC] Kavu Predator
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
// Spells
4 [U] Berserk
4 [MM] Invigorate
4 [TSP] Might of Old Krosa
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares
4 [US] Hidden Herd
4 [ZEN] Vines of Vastwood
This is my current list. I think the mix of stompy is better than burn because this way let me win matches that otherwise i never couldn´t won .
What do you think about my list?
...I think Berserk Stompy should stay Mono-G
...if we splash good cards from R and W, we build more and more in this direction, and then, we end in playing zoo...
YawG
To be honest, that would be my oppinion too, but we should respect the 3-c version with Nacatl, not only because it has higher power creatures, and optitions like swords, but also because they are playing the same core as we are.
If we intend this deck to reach somewere, even if they both look too different, we know that the idea is the same, and thus, we should work together.
I like the monogreen version for it's manabase stability, but the Gwr version may be better against few other matchups... We could then:
a) Analyse it; or
b) Play them.
Both are great for us =)
Anyways, I'm not the one who will say Grw is better than otherwise running Zoo.
Conidering that Zoo's badmatch should be combo (due to it's aggro nature), I would most likely say going berserk is a mistake for that shell...
NecroYawgmoth
10-06-2009, 05:00 PM
shell....
hmm, what do you think is part of the Shell/Core of the Deck...
IMO its:
4 Nettle
4 Skarrgan
4 Bogle
4 Ledgewalker
4 Kavu
4 Berserk
4 Rancor
4 Invigorate
4 Might
a minimum of 10 Forests
at least 6 other mana sources, fetches, etc.
SB:
4 Vexing Shusher
3 Seeds of Innocence
...this leaves us with 8 other cards to play around with, to complete this deck...
I know that are many cards, but that is my opinion of corecards for this deck...
What do you think belongs to the shell of Berserk Stompy?
YawG
shell....
hmm, what do you think is part of the Shell/Core of the Deck...
IMO its:
4 Nettle
4 Skarrgan
4 Bogle
4 Ledgewalker
4 Kavu
4 Berserk
4 Rancor
4 Invigorate
4 Might
a minimum of 10 Forests
at least 6 other mana sources, fetches, etc.
SB:
4 Vexing Shusher
3 Seeds of Innocence
...this leaves us with 8 other cards to play around with, to complete this deck...
I know that are many cards, but that is my opinion of corecards for this deck...
What do you think belongs to the shell of Berserk Stompy?
YawG
This. =)
Otter
10-06-2009, 10:15 PM
shell....
hmm, what do you think is part of the Shell/Core of the Deck...
IMO its:
4 Nettle
4 Skarrgan
4 Bogle
4 Ledgewalker
4 Kavu
4 Berserk
4 Rancor
4 Invigorate
4 Might
a minimum of 10 Forests
at least 6 other mana sources, fetches, etc.
SB:
4 Vexing Shusher
3 Seeds of Innocence
...this leaves us with 8 other cards to play around with, to complete this deck...
I know that are many cards, but that is my opinion of corecards for this deck...
What do you think belongs to the shell of Berserk Stompy?
YawG
Same shell for me, filling in the manabase with 6 more Forests because losing to Stifle/Duress is awkward. My extra eight maindeck slots are 4 Skyshroud Elite, 2 Vines of Vastwood, and 2 Briar Shield. I didn't initially think that Briar Shield would be any good, but Boggles and Ledgewalkers just don't provide a clock unless you have Rancor, so having Briar is a nice backup plan for them. Whoever said that a page or two back, nice call.
I'm still not sold on Vines of Vastwood, it's so taxing on the mana and not always up when it really counts. I need to do a lot more testing on the thing.
The two cards I'm currently tempted most by are Scryb Ranger and Cold-Eyed Selkie. The former is just such great manafixing for casting post-board Seeds and pro-Merfolk is awesome. I can't help being interested in the Selkie: she's ForceOfWill-Walk, ignores CB, and if a deck was ever going to make her work, this would be it. I mean really, it doesn't get much cooler than hitting her with Krosa to draw five.
EDIT -- I might try something like 1-2 Selkie and 1-2 Vine Dryad so that I have some more landwalkers and I can throw the Selkies to the Dryad if I can't find three land.
zabuza
10-07-2009, 04:15 AM
i thought on selkie too. Usually sshe was countered always or killed before she hits because with this deck you can draw an absurd amount of cards. Now with vines of the vastwood could be an option but i think they are lot mana intensive so i´m not very sold about it.
Anyways i think they are too slow forr this deck.
On the other hand, i understand you when you say you prefer Mono-G and i´m not trying to make you change your mind about that, but please respect the Grw deck. I´m only trying to help you to develop the most powerful stompy ever was created since my deck is like the big brother of yours (big because i´m using another colors, but call him like you wish).
Another idea i saw the last weekend on a shop was using uktabi drake (2/1 haste flying for G with echo 1GG). I think you can use this guy to make "Surprise Surprise" after the other player uses his mana to remove your dudes thinking you need two turns to attack or so. With this dude you can win in only one turn and with a nice evasive hability. The problem is that usually he is going to die on the next turn (echo 3??? OMG, ) but think of you are playing tattermunge who usually dies as well against almost every deck with creatures on it. I think it could be tested.
... and 2 Briar Shield. I didn't initially think that Briar Shield would be any good, but Boggles and Ledgewalkers just don't provide a clock unless you have Rancor, so having Briar is a nice backup plan for them. Whoever said that a page or two back, nice call...
Bria shield is nice, and play a role similar to seal of strength. I used to run 4 seal + 4 briar before krosa came up, so that I could play my pumps on turn a, and combo on turn b.
EDIT -- I might try something like 1-2 Selkie and 1-2 Vine Dryad so that I have some more landwalkers and I can throw the Selkies to the Dryad if I can't find three land.
I would appreciate a lot your test results on selkies, vastwood and ranger.
I fell like ranger is too slow and no removal-proof, so i don't fell like using it: I prefer running 18 lands and consider I'll most likely have 3 forest on table... that's also why I don't run fetchs and wastelands...
I don't think the 1-2 vine dryad plan is good at all... play 1-2 extra forest if you fell like you need, 'cos vine dryad is to be a first commer, so you either should play 3-4 of it and wish you have it in opening hand, or cut it from the list.
i thought on selkie too. Usually sshe was countered always or killed before she hits because with this deck you can draw an absurd amount of cards. Now with vines of the vastwood could be an option but i think they are lot mana intensive so i´m not very sold about it.
Maybe 4-of vastwood, 4-of scryb and 3~4 selkie, in a "manafix-draw-protect" combo, together with 18 lands, could handle it...
that would give us no much room though:
4 skarrgan, 4 boogle, 4 silhana, 4 kavu (16)
4 berserk, 3 seal (manafix), 4 invigorate, 4 VoVW (19)
3 selkie
4 scryb ranger
18 Lands
Seems ok, but a lot less "aggro" then the deck usually can be...
On the other hand, i understand you when you say you prefer Mono-G and i´m not trying to make you change your mind about that, but please respect the Grw deck.
Yep, we shall respect it.(at least, I do.)
We are looking forward your testing resulsts too.
Another idea i saw the last weekend on a shop was using uktabi drake
I've tested it once, and I hate it. It's a mid-late game slot if you wish to keep him alive, or if you wish to combo him up. And it's a bad version of shock if you play it first turn.
----------------
Double-post avoidance Edit:
Sweet, CHaPuZaS is going to join us at The Source =)
I'm César and I need your help a lot... I've been trying to post in the BStompy post since I've heard of it by you, but somehow I have not "enough privileges" or so... How could I do it? Can I contact a webmaster for solving that?Thank you very much!
And for now, all of you convinced me to run BS in a 157 people tournament last sunday
Here is the report:
http://launiversidaddelasartesludicas.blogspot.com/2009/10/coverage-online-xxix-open-de-madrid.html
And here's the list:
http://launiversidaddelasartesludicas.blogspot.com/2009/10/berserk-stompy-octubre-2009.html
Just for if you wanna tell as long as I can´t...
I contacted Nihil... Just can't remember the procedure to get the privileges... anyways, he always get some nice results =)
umbowta
10-07-2009, 08:33 PM
Sweet, CHaPuZaS is going to join us at The Source =)
I contacted Nihil... Just can't remember the procedure to get the privileges... anyways, he always get some nice results =)
That's great to hear! I would like to know why he likes to play Tattermunge Maniac. I tested it and did not like it at all. Tattermunge forces you to throw away pump spells, i.e., combo pieces, while engaging in attrition wars. If you don't cast Might or Invigorate you usually get 1 for 0ed. The best you do is 1-1.
That's great to hear! I would like to know why he likes to play Tattermunge Maniac. I tested it and did not like it at all. Tattermunge forces you to throw away pump spells, i.e., combo pieces, while engaging in attrition wars. If you don't cast Might or Invigorate you usually get 1 for 0ed. The best you do is 1-1.
He aswers that in his blog. He didn't test nettle enough, that's why he decided for maniac. He didn't explain maniac over lion though.
About our sideboard issues, besides the shusher which seems to be the 61st~64th card of the deck against control, been considering:
What about dropping Seeds for Krosan/Naturalize? Seeds best is against Stax 'n' Affy, which can be hurted by Krosan/Naturalize that are far more versatile. Besides, they pawn Moat and Humility too.
And what about dropping tormods, which is best against loam, and some threshs, and use Needle instead, which is good against: Loam, CB+Top, Isochron, Belcher, Painter and any activation-based. Also, it's 1cc, which is affordable.
And what about using Shards of Amethyst against Combos?
eq.firemind
10-08-2009, 08:47 AM
Hi, thread!
The primer is very nice and I'm glad people still playing this deck.
I want to offer you the direction I never saw: the use of creatures with Exalted, namely Noble Hierarch and Qasali Pridemage. This will allow us to run less lands and now we have a maindeck answer to problematic cards (like CB or Moat). Also, Swords to Plowshares is still the best removal in format and white offers Orim's Chant to help fighting Storm combo.
The downsides are obv:
1) Non-basic hate (wich is survivable due to Hierarch).
2) The deck becomes a little slower than mono-:g:
Now here is the sketch decklist of :g::wg:Exalted Berserk:
Lands (13)
3 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
6 Forest
1-COSTED DUDES (17)
4 Skarragan Pit-Skulk
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Slippery Bogle
2 Skyshroud Elite
4 Noble Hierarch
2-COSTED DUDES (11)
4 Kavu Predator
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
3 Qasali Pridemage
PUMP 'N' STUFF (19)
4 Rancor
4 Invigorate
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Berserk
3 Swords to Plowshares
SIDEBOARD
3 Winter Orb
3 Vexing Shusher
2 Krosan Grip
4 Orim's Chant
3 Tormod's Crypt/Jotun Grunt/another GY hate.
I haven't tested the idea yet, but I know for sure Noble Hierarch is very underplayed card in Legacy and unlike Birds of Paradise it strangely fits in agressive decks due to that little word Exalted.
What do you think of it?
zabuza
10-08-2009, 09:12 AM
Welcome to the thread ;),
About your list i can say that is close similar to mine (because i play white too with swords, qasalis, etc). I tested hierarch but they weren´t as good as it promised on paper so i had to cut them. Lot of time you only have a little dude on play and this mana is not as useful as other nice habilities or a big body.
Swords are very good here. This is the deck which can benefit more from swords because removal and because kavu pumps itself a lot.
Sideboarding i don´t like winter orb. I prefer choke who usually close the game when comes into play.
That´s my opinion.
Otter
10-08-2009, 01:33 PM
What about dropping Seeds for Krosan/Naturalize? Seeds best is against Stax 'n' Affy, which can be hurted by Krosan/Naturalize that are far more versatile. Besides, they pawn Moat and Humility too.
Definitely nothing wrong with this approach, having good answers to Moat could definitely be important, depending on your metagame. I would favor Grip over Naturalize, while it's less castable, it can actually get you out of Chalice at 1+2 and doesn't die to CB.
And what about dropping tormods, which is best against loam, and some threshs, and use Needle instead, which is good against: Loam, CB+Top, Isochron, Belcher, Painter and any activation-based. Also, it's 1cc, which is affordable.
Needle doesn't stop Loam, Dredge is a replacement effect, not an activated ability. The best we can do with it is name Factory or Port to shut those off, but really it just sucks against Loam. The rest of that list besides Belcher dies to Naturalize/Grip/Seeds/Reverent, so I'm not very sold on Needle.
And what about using Shards of Amethyst against Combos?
Thorn doesn't work. Dropping it turn two slows down our kill by enough that they'll have the chance to just pay one more to bounce it and then kill us. Dropping it later than turn two gives them a good opportunity to just go off before then. It's not remotely assured to give a good advantage in the matchup, save the space for something that will actually destroy a problematic matchup. The only way this deck is going to have a good combo matchup is if you're in Gw and have Teeg + Canonist.
Yeah, sorry, Pithing doesn't work against loam. =/
Since my meta is got manny loams, i'm back to tormods, and probably gonna use krosan grip
Among the splashs available, the one I like more is Gw with a little splash just for the qasali and the plowshares.
I don't like noble that much, but it can see some play.
About throns, we can always kill the aggro-way, we still run 1/3 of our deck in creatures, and we can pay some extra :1: for the pumps. I'm not sure if they can't kill us before we can cast our shards, but after we do, quite sure combo will have problems. They'll have to bounce it before combo-ing. Anyways, I can't figure out a better card against combo, at least it won't be an auto-loss...
NecroYawgmoth
10-08-2009, 08:03 PM
Thorn of Amethyst...
I played this card one year ago in my Board, without Berserks...
...the only thing I can say is, that I would only play it, if I play 4 ESG, to have a chance to play it first turn...
with Berserks, I think they're much more worse, cuz we aren't able to combokill fast enough...
I think we must play CotV or Mindbreak Trap to handle Combo...
I've also asked CHaPuZaS in the past, what he is thinking about Thorn in the board,and what he Answers was that. "I won't play Thorn in this deck (It's not THAT problem for a combodeck and you will lose a whole turn)"
YawG
Thorn of Amethyst...
I played this card one year ago in my Board, without Berserks...
...the only thing I can say is, that I would only play it, if I play 4 ESG, to have a chance to play it first turn...
with Berserks, I think they're much more worse, cuz we aren't able to combokill fast enough...
I think we must play CotV or Mindbreak Trap to handle Combo...
I've also asked CHaPuZaS in the past, what he is thinking about Thorn in the board,and what he Answers was that. "I won't play Thorn in this deck (It's not THAT problem for a combodeck and you will lose a whole turn)"
YawG
Yeah, I though about it, actually... I wanted to know what was the results against combo... nice that you already have done some tests... against which decks did you try it out?
Against TES, ANT, Painter, and less competitive like Solidarity or Belcher, or any other combo-like, Chalice @0 would be good only against TES/ANT, and even so, not extremely useful...
And we can't afford for chalice@1 or 2 anyways...
Maybe we could side Bounty of the Hunt for some creature, and try to combo faster? We would have 8 0cc growths, and like 12 1cc, and zerks.
No idea on how fast we can be w/out our protection and amount of creatures though.
Otter
10-09-2009, 08:06 AM
Not only do we have a slower goldfish than ANT, but by default we also have exactly zero hate cards for the matchup. I'm sorry, but that's just not winnable unless we get sick draws twice in a row or they mulligan into oblivion. Aside from the perfect draws that can kill T2, we usually kill T3-T5, ANT has absolutely no problem pulling solid T1-3 kills while disrupting us. How do we even race them if they Duress and snag our Berserk?
It doesn't get much better postboard -- CotV is better against us than them, Thorn slows us down just as much as them, Teeg/Cannonist require a splash, and Mindbreak Trap is certified awful. Not only do none of those assure us a win, but we have no ways to protect them from Duress/bounce/Silence they still have a faster kill than we do. It doesn't change that you need to be something of a lucksack to win the match, so I think it's a lot more efficient to just spend the SB spaces on matches that we can actually win.
You are saying that your opinion is towards ditching the machup and do some previous prayer so that we don't face a lot of them?
It's not exactly a bad idea, since Legacy is filled with control and aggro-control decks, which is also why we can afford to play this deck: we are somewhat good against them...
Although, I still fell like we should use 4-of whatever best option we get against those combos to try to amplify our chances, if it's a probable combo-infested meta. I mean, even if our option is not optimal, if it will increase our chances, we should use it, since, even in a combo-infested meta, aggro & control always has it's slice of the chart...
Well Otter is kinda right. I think ditching the combo matchup is a good idea. You wont get a good matchup against combo even after boarding, so just let it go. And at least in my meta, you have a hard time finding combo players, so it´s better to go all out and get good cards into the sideboard against other matchups.
CHaPuZaS
10-09-2009, 09:21 AM
Combo is not THAT hard as a matchup for Berserk Stompy.
At least in Spain, the most played Combo decks are ANt and Elves! (and Ichorid).
I have thrown away the Tormod's just because you won't always win with a single Tormod's nor the game neither time enough to win the game. I prefer to play as fast as possible and win if the other player Mulls down/missplays or you combo him out of the game.
Elves are a favorable matchup, you can destroy them just by playing Skarrgan Pit-Skulk and pumping it twice or thrice.
ANT is the worst combo matchup, and even in that situation you can win them by taking most of his life out. Asume this: You are playing against a Canadian and you take him down to 4-5 life, wasting your hand/Berserk/Invigorates... You are surely going to lose. But if you are playing against an ANT and you take him down to 4-5 life (or let's say 8-10) in the second turn, wasting your hand/Berserk/Invigorates... and leaving a creture in the ground... The game is not that hard to win if you shut their Ad Nauseams.
At least, tha's what I think (And what testing shows). I have also sided 4 Mindbreak Trap to surprise them, but I didn't face any ANT last weekend... So I can't tell how good they are.
Otter
10-09-2009, 04:18 PM
You are saying that your opinion is towards ditching the machup and do some previous prayer so that we don't face a lot of them?
It's not exactly a bad idea, since Legacy is filled with control and aggro-control decks, which is also why we can afford to play this deck: we are somewhat good against them...
Although, I still fell like we should use 4-of whatever best option we get against those combos to try to amplify our chances, if it's a probable combo-infested meta. I mean, even if our option is not optimal, if it will increase our chances, we should use it, since, even in a combo-infested meta, aggro & control always has it's slice of the chart...
Yeah, my line of thinking is pretty much that if we board for all the control and aggro-control decks and can just slaughter them, that's enough. Losing one match to combo and winning the rest can still get you T8. Of course, this only works if you only expect a little combo. If you expect to see a combo-infested meta, I just wouldn't play this deck, period. If it's the only deck that you have built, I guess that trying to board some Mindbreaks or something so that you have a chance is the best option you have.
But seriously, if your meta is combo-infested, play a deck that involves Chalice & Trinisphere or Countertop.
Combo is not THAT hard as a matchup for Berserk Stompy.
At least in Spain, the most played Combo decks are ANt and Elves! (and Ichorid).
I have thrown away the Tormod's just because you won't always win with a single Tormod's nor the game neither time enough to win the game. I prefer to play as fast as possible and win if the other player Mulls down/missplays or you combo him out of the game.
Elves are a favorable matchup, you can destroy them just by playing Skarrgan Pit-Skulk and pumping it twice or thrice.
ANT is the worst combo matchup, and even in that situation you can win them by taking most of his life out. Asume this: You are playing against a Canadian and you take him down to 4-5 life, wasting your hand/Berserk/Invigorates... You are surely going to lose. But if you are playing against an ANT and you take him down to 4-5 life (or let's say 8-10) in the second turn, wasting your hand/Berserk/Invigorates... and leaving a creture in the ground... The game is not that hard to win if you shut their Ad Nauseams.
At least, tha's what I think (And what testing shows). I have also sided 4 Mindbreak Trap to surprise them, but I didn't face any ANT last weekend... So I can't tell how good they are.
I'm completely with you about Elves, Skarrgan absolutely destroys their plan of "Play 20 guys and pass the turn." Not a terrible matchup as far as combo goes.
I agree with you that Berserking a guy as soon as possible to get the ANT player low on life is a very smart plan, but I think you're overstating its effectiveness, at least depending on their list. If they're going with the Silence/Chant plan, you have a good chance of being able to get them really low. However, if they are using Duress, taking a Berserk buys them a lot of time. Note that while Mindbreak Trap is kinda nice, it also turns their Silences from bad timewalks back into fully useful cards.
Another problem is that turning off Ad Nauseam isn't that good against the lists that only play 1-2 copies of it along with 1 IGG. Going with the Infernal -> IGG plan isn't going to cost them any life and they have plenty of tutors to search it up if they need it.
umbowta
10-09-2009, 04:57 PM
I'd like to focus just for a moment on the mana base...strictly for Mono Green. The reason I bring this up is because the most common list is running 6-8 fetch lands with nothing else to fetch aside from Forest. I'm beginning to think that the potential deck thinning isn't worth the trouble. I recently lost to White Stax because of being unable to pay for Tabernacles and the sideboarded Ghostly prisons. I ended up fetching up every single land in the deck and was just cursing the uselessness of the fetches. I had two Kavus on board and Invigorate/Berserk in hand but could not get through the stall.
I'm considering upping the land count to 18-19ish with some newer tech that reduces the risk of a land light opening 7 and abandoning the fetchlands altogether...
12 Forest
4 Horizon Canopy
2-3 PendelHaven
I've been testing the PendelHavens already (3 with 14 Forests) and in well over twenty games it was well worth the spot. Silhana, Bogle, Pit Skulk, and Scryb Sprites(yes I play them still) love to see a Pendelhaven on the table.
I did notice occasional land flooding with this setup and some land screw too, which is why I started thinking about upping the land count and Canopy to smooth things out.
The side benefit is that you're not constantly shuffling the deck in every game. Beta Berserks thank you for this
I don't play fetchlands either. I don't like to be more vulnerable to stifle, and don't like the shuffle effect. But I respect whoever runs it, I simply dont care.
I run 18 plain forest, which is more stable against almost every land-hate.
Also, I don't use extra non-basic for the same reason I stick to monogreen. I don't like wastelands slowing me down. But there again, it's an option. Just not the general option...
But Horizon Canopy seems quite nice...
CHaPuZaS
10-09-2009, 08:38 PM
I will always stick to basic lands in the monogreen version. Sure Canopy and Pendelhaven are "strictly" better than a Forest... In theory, but not in the format where Wasteland is the king. You'll be facing too many situations where your opponents can get rid of you just by taking out your Canopy (Not to say when you have a Pendelhaven in hand and in play, belive me, it happen me like 8 years ago in a 300 people vintage tournament).
I will always stick to basic lands in the monogreen version. Sure Canopy and Pendelhaven are "strictly" better than a Forest... In theory, but not in the format where Wasteland is the king. You'll be facing too many situations where your opponents can get rid of you just by taking out your Canopy (Not to say when you have a Pendelhaven in hand and in play, belive me, it happen me like 8 years ago in a 300 people vintage tournament).
What about Wastelands, ever considered running then?
umbowta
10-12-2009, 03:05 PM
I will always stick to basic lands in the monogreen version. Sure Canopy and Pendelhaven are "strictly" better than a Forest... In theory, but not in the format where Wasteland is the king. You'll be facing too many situations where your opponents can get rid of you just by taking out your Canopy (Not to say when you have a Pendelhaven in hand and in play, belive me, it happen me like 8 years ago in a 300 people vintage tournament).Yes I understand that can happen but this is why you cant just continue to run 17 lands at that point. If you go up to 19 then you can afford to have something wasted and still expect to stick 2 or 3 on the table.
Now think late game. If your opponent manages to neutralize your early threats enough to stay alive, Pendelhaven cuts your clock in half if you're stuck with a 1/1 (hope it's Ledgewalker). If you topdeck a fetchland, it's a land no matter what, however, saccing a Canopy, topdecked or already in play, is more than two thirds threat, i.e., not land. Note, this is all of course just theorizing until I get s'more time and Canopies to test it.
What about Wastelands, ever considered running then?No. I've never considered it for a moment. Basically, If it does't tap for green, I don't want it...and yes, that includes fetchlands at the moment.
NecroYawgmoth
10-13-2009, 08:45 AM
@ CHaPuZaS: ...how were the Vines of Vastwood in the tournament?
Do you liked/disliked them? ...are 2 of them the right number? ...would be nice to get some feedback...
P.S. ...test the Nettle Sentinels, seriously... it's like I told you, that they are superior to Maniacs and Lions =P=P=P
YawG
zabuza
10-14-2009, 05:39 AM
If you play the multicolored version (Grw) you can play Pyrostatic pillar which is soo good vs ANT elves and combo ;) besides of any type of red removal clasm (cause your guys are 3 resistance or greater ;) ).
The bad thing is that stifle and wastes are bad for you so up the count lands to 20 (8+8+4)).
In the monocolored version the only thing you can do against combo is being faster than him, so be lucky ;)
I´ve tested pendelhaven and canopys. Pendelhaven falls from my list when i decided to use big monsters (nacatl, herds, etc), now the only little guys i´m using are silhanas and sometimes boggles so they are not welcome here. If i was playing MONOG, i only use a couple of them. More than that are too much. Canopys are good on paper, but not as good as you can think on the play because it´s wasteable, yo need mana to play critters and pump and can´t not spend time on drawing cards with them and have a low count of lands so it´s not as good as you can think playing them.
No. I've never considered it for a moment. Basically, If it does't tap for green, I don't want it...and yes, that includes fetchlands at the moment.
Well, wastelands are not to be a replacement of forests, I never said they were.
The main reason I would run wastelands is that it will see play situations in 90% of the matchs it comes into play. Basically, it tries to slow my opponent down to a land count similar to mine, while it can also be used to hate problematic ability lands, as rishadean or maze.
Raising the land count, let's say, to 17 forests + 3~4 wastelands, also will let you run krosan grip more confortably as sideboard...
But that's just my considerations about wastelands, which may not fit our game plan.
NecroYawgmoth
10-21-2009, 11:45 AM
hello guys...
after a bit of testing, and a friend of mine playing this deck on a tournament, we found out, that you can easily run only 14-15 lands (without fetches) in the deck...
...we got only one time screwed to 1 mana, and we get the 3rd land drop on turn 3-4 over 90% of the time...
...just wanted to inform you about that
YawG
Yawg,
You tested it hard mode playing, or did you a statistical analysis on that?
Just curious...
Because MWS's got a statistical analysis system on it, and it could help the calculation...
And how was mulligan due to no lands in hand?
And also, did you play Elvish Spirit Guide or any other mana source?
I could make up some statistical analysis on that...
NecroYawgmoth
10-21-2009, 01:55 PM
no statistical analysis...
just my goldfishings & casual games in the last days, and his playings on an ~80 people Tournament... [no mulligans taken, 2 mana hands are often good enough, and on draw is a high chance to draw the 2nd land with 2 draws, (sometimes I got 4 lands on the first 8 cards)]... but there is also everytime a bit luck in Magic isn't it ;)
decklist is this:
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Skarrgan Pit Skulk
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Slippery Bogle
4 Kavu Predator
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Rancor
3 Seal of Strength
3 Vines of Vastwood
14 Snow-Covered Forest
YawG
First major axiom: On risk
Worry is not a sickness but a sign of health. If you are not worried, you are not risking enough.
I think that help explaining the "magic and luck" thing xD
Well, it's good to know that you can play with even 14 lands... i think i like having enough lands for the 3rd land drop earlier so that i can run 3cc SB, but nevertheless, it's an option. And keeping it basic helps on that too...
I've been playing 17 for a while now... 14 is huge... I'm sure gonna build up a statistical analysis on that and post here asap xD
How was the tourney results anyway?
NecroYawgmoth
10-21-2009, 03:37 PM
hmmmm think about it...
The lowland Stompy Builds in the past played ~9 Forest, 4 Land Grant, 4 ESG & 3 Quirion Ranger...
...thats 13 permanent manasources (LGs counted), and 4 one shots, in combination with 3 Elves who could produce mana, but only if you have land, and no one kills him, and this configuration has worked, somehow...
14 Forest is more permanent mana than the old lowland versions, and not a possible autolose against FoW, Duress, etc.
IMO it's logical , that it works...
Tournament was 4:3 or 3:4 (don't know), but I think he does some huge misplays, beacause he didn't play aggresive enough and takes the defensive route too often (but haven't seen him playing most time there, cuz I was playing, too :)... I just asked him how 14 lands worked for him, and he says positive, except for 1 mana screw...
YawG
Well, since I'm a useless person, and my job is boring right now, and since I'm a computer programmer which can't access you tube due to people at my room, I made up a small program to Stress test card draws and cauculate the mean land draw statistically...
Thats my results, using 1000000 iterations and a fairly good random:
(The number represents the mean amount of lands drawn)
EDIT: This post was giant, so i made an image and paste it somewhere else
Mean amount of lands drawn (http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/8096/meanz.jpg)
Percentage of times in which x lands were drawn (http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/2158/percentage.jpg)
Posted generical results to forum (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=394307&posted=1#post394307)
Think the second one is more consistant, and the first one is kind of useless, but simple...
Hope this help anyone :eyebrow: :really:
swordoffireandice
11-01-2009, 03:53 PM
Hi guys, my name is Richard from Holland, i sold my cards a few years ago but kept my berserk stompy deck.
I have beautifull nm beta Berserks and just have play them.
15 november we have a big tournament in Holland. (100/150 man)
I am taking my berserk stompy deck there.
I played against a friend yesterday and found out that Bogle is just to small. His ability is great, just like Silhana, but even a Rancor on a Bogle does not work for me.
I came across Favor of the Overbeing. This is a great card on a Bogle. The Bogle becomes a 3/3 flying/vigilance.
But just 4 Bogles isn't enough to play this card and on just a green creature it is not very good.
I read somewhere that someone suggested Cold-Eyed Selkie......now this creature is also green/blue.
Has anyone tested these cards in a deck already? i know i will.
Has anyone tested Great Sable Stag yet? what are the results?
How works Gather Courage with Nettle Sentinel? Can you tap the Sentinel to play the Courage for free and than untap the Sentinel because you played a green spell?
Thanks and don't mind the grammar. :wink:
(nameless one)
11-02-2009, 08:21 AM
I like the idea of doing a U/G Berserk Stompy built... has anyone every tried it?
also, how does this deck fare late game? My friend said this deck scoops to Landstill decks, are there ways to improve this matchup?
umbowta
11-02-2009, 01:16 PM
Hi guys, my name is Richard from Holland, i sold my cards a few years ago but kept my berserk stompy deck.
I have beautifull nm beta Berserks and just have play them.
15 november we have a big tournament in Holland. (100/150 man)
I am taking my berserk stompy deck there.
I played against a friend yesterday and found out that Bogle is just to small. His ability is great, just like Silhana, but even a Rancor on a Bogle does not work for me.
I came across Favor of the Overbeing. This is a great card on a Bogle. The Bogle becomes a 3/3 flying/vigilance.
But just 4 Bogles isn't enough to play this card and on just a green creature it is not very good.
I read somewhere that someone suggested Cold-Eyed Selkie......now this creature is also green/blue.
Has anyone tested these cards in a deck already? i know i will.
Has anyone tested Great Sable Stag yet? what are the results?
How works Gather Courage with Nettle Sentinel? Can you tap the Sentinel to play the Courage for free and than untap the Sentinel because you played a green spell?
Thanks and don't mind the grammar. :wink:
I agree with you on Bogle, to a point. The lack of evasion is what I really don't like, but trollshroud allows you to aim lots of pump at it without fear of a well timed PtE or StP.
Selkie and Favor of the Overbeing are cute and would be great fun in this type of deck in a casual envioronment. I don't think either should be included if you plan to compete at a tournament.
Gather Courage is terrible whether or not you cast it for free off Sentinel.
I like the idea of doing a U/G Berserk Stompy built... has anyone every tried it?
also, how does this deck fare late game? My friend said this deck scoops to Landstill decks, are there ways to improve this matchup?What blue cards would you include and why?
Why would we scoop to anything, least of all landstill? The speed of this deck is already hard for them to handle and post board you have Rushwood Legate for even more early pressure and you have Krosan Grip to remove Moat or Humility. There is no scooping. Only stomping... and their attempt to prevent you from stomping them. :smile:
FluffyPinkBunnies
11-02-2009, 03:48 PM
What blue cards would you include and why?
The only possible blue inclusion i could see is Unstable Mutation. For U your creature will get +3/+3 and is kind of permanent ( -1/-1 drawback and all). But still i see no reason to splash blue.
Forbiddian
11-02-2009, 04:03 PM
Mean amount of lands drawn (http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/8096/meanz.jpg)
Percentage of times in which x lands were drawn (http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/2158/percentage.jpg)
You should get #lands*#cards draw / number of cards in the deck = mean number of lands drawn.
There's no need to run a program to find that, unless the program also tosses 0-land hands trying to dig for a starting land.
CHaPuZaS
11-02-2009, 09:45 PM
You WON'T BELIEVE what I've been doing since last weekend...
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Eyz1EOzPuiA/SuxX0urY4DI/AAAAAAAADUA/Fxu0J-0Bqac/s1600/Afiniquitando.JPG
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Eyz1EOzPuiA/SuxX1FY8UhI/AAAAAAAADUg/HgBpTxfpr00/s1600/ganando%2Bcon%2Bestilo.JPG
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Eyz1EOzPuiA/Su-ZhEsb8NI/AAAAAAAADVo/K35cCyw8XSA/s1600/turno%2B3.JPG
Wining one round PvP tournaments at MTGO... xD
Facing and winning a Colossus and a Dreadnought is just SOOOOOO cool...
I Can't adjust the images size...Sorry...
umbowta
11-02-2009, 10:24 PM
You WON'T BELIEVE what I've been doing since last weekend...
Wining one round PvP tournaments at MTGO... xD
Facing and winning a Colossus and a Dreadnought is just SOOOOOO cool...
I Can't adjust the images size...Sorry...
Actually, I really would believe that's what you've been up to. The Lightning greaves on Disciple of the Vault made me :laugh: and dreadnought facing down a bunch of other "one drops" was awesome. So much win.
NecroYawgmoth
11-03-2009, 01:27 AM
Oo...
@ CHaPuZaS: What list are you playing there???
YawG
You should get #lands*#cards draw / number of cards in the deck = mean number of lands drawn.
There's no need to run a program to find that, unless the program also tosses 0-land hands trying to dig for a starting land.
Yeah, the program actually can do that... It can do whatever I want to, it's called programming language ;D
But, anyway, I posted a XLS at the "Format and Article Discussion" forum, that does the math I did in this test...
Can be found here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=395634#post395634
Humphrey
11-03-2009, 06:01 AM
looks real fun
(nameless one)
11-03-2009, 08:37 AM
Oo...
@ CHaPuZaS: What list are you playing there???
YawG
I wanna see that list too!
swordoffireandice
11-03-2009, 08:56 AM
CHaPuZaS dude, what list do you have for us???
I saw you playing Shorecrasher Mimic.....i overlooked that card completely!!
umbowta: I dindn't said that gather courage was good or bad, I just had a question about it....does anyone know the answer, especially the second part of the question?
How works Gather Courage with Nettle Sentinel? Can you tap the Sentinel to play the Courage for free and than untap the Sentinel because you played a green spell?
umbowta
11-03-2009, 09:05 AM
CHaPuZaS dude, what list do you have for us???
I saw you playing Shorecrasher Mimic.....i overlooked that card completely!!
umbowta: I dindn't said that gather courage was good or bad, I just had a question about it....does anyone know the answer, especially the second part of the question?
How works Gather Courage with Nettle Sentinel? Can you tap the Sentinel to play the Courage for free and than untap the Sentinel because you played a green spell?
Oh. Sorry. Off the top of my head, you would announce the spell, Gather Courage, then pay all costs by tapping the sentinel, at which point the spell is considered played(or cast) which triggers sentinels untap ability. So you get Gather Courage and an untapped Sentinel.
CHaPuZaS
11-03-2009, 09:55 AM
It's the same decklist I've playing for months, but there's no Seal of Strength or Skyshorud Elite on MTGO, so some things got to be changed.
Also, as Invigorate and Rancor didn't come up till today I 've been playing with the blue Berserk Stompy decklist, which uses Shorecrasher Mimic, Favor of the Overbeing and Boggle as the Kave-Invigorate combo.
So far, I am almost sure that Kavu+Invigorate are far better. As you use to say, VoV is teh nutz.
I can imagine a bogle+mimic+selkie list, and yet, sticking to a monogreen version
Seem pretty nice ^^
swordoffireandice
11-03-2009, 11:31 AM
I can imagine a bogle+mimic+selkie list, and yet, sticking to a monogreen version
Seem pretty nice ^^
This is a monogreen version......:wink: you only need forest to play these cards.
This is a monogreen version......:wink: you only need forest to play these cards.
like I said, seems pretty nice ^^
(nameless one)
11-03-2009, 01:41 PM
I can imagine a bogle+mimic+selkie list, and yet, sticking to a monogreen version
Seem pretty nice ^^
Would this be enough 'blue' to run Force of Will? I could always use that extra protection?
Also, I thought i saw Favor of the Overbeing on the MODO screen. How was that on you?
CHaPuZaS
11-03-2009, 03:06 PM
Very good for your UG creatures, too bad for the others. Anyway, I just prefer to play monogreen, at least in Legacy, where I suffered a Red Elemental Blast in the key turn... completely owned.
swordoffireandice
11-03-2009, 05:14 PM
Very good for your UG creatures, too bad for the others. Anyway, I just prefer to play monogreen, at least in Legacy, where I suffered a Red Elemental Blast in the key turn... completely owned.
Red Elemental Blast......everyone plays these cards after sideboarding.....didn't think of that.
But I still want the games against countertop decks to improve.
River boa?
Aether Vial?
Root Maze?
Red Elemental Blast......everyone plays these cards after sideboarding.....didn't think of that.
But I still want the games against countertop decks to improve.
River boa?
Aether Vial?
Root Maze?
You can, usually, side whatever you got SB
+4 Vexing Shusher
+x Grip/Naturalize
and if you fell like hating their goyf/goose/threshold (which I discourage), you may side tormods/relics...
Also, they play islands, so you may side rushwood legate too...
swordoffireandice
11-07-2009, 05:07 AM
You can, usually, side whatever you got SB
+4 Vexing Shusher
+x Grip/Naturalize
and if you fell like hating their goyf/goose/threshold (which I discourage), you may side tormods/relics...
Also, they play islands, so you may side rushwood legate too...
Yesterday I played against Countertop Progenitus with sideboard.
I sided 4x Vexing shusher and 3x Grip. These cards work very well. But does the shusher needs protection from....Vines of the Vastwood?
CounterTop will swords the Shusher all the time.
lorddotm
11-07-2009, 06:14 AM
4 Slippery Bogel
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Kird Ape
4 Vishino Slaughtermaster
4 Uktabi Drake
4 Kavu Predator
4 Berserk
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
2 Seal of Strength
4 Taiga
8 Fetch
2 Forest
Yesterday I played against Countertop Progenitus with sideboard.
I sided 4x Vexing shusher and 3x Grip. These cards work very well. But does the shusher needs protection from....Vines of the Vastwood?
CounterTop will swords the Shusher all the time.
Do you mean, Vines of Vastwood as a sideboard addition? Well, we already run 2-of maindeck, just dunno if it wouldn't slow the deck too much, but it's possible to be done... yet, they will have a lot other cards to worry, since every threat we play before their lock is a problem...
If you are having too much trouble against CB + Top, you could ditch pumps in order to side in creatures, then, I would personaly recoment Rushwood Legate as main option. You can also try Vine Dryad, which would a free flash landwalker threat.
NecroYawgmoth
11-09-2009, 07:47 AM
...2-off main???
I run 3 cuz it saves the day so often against StP and PtE, I would play 4 but it looks too clunky to play 4...
What's your actual list Gui?
...2-off main???
I run 3 cuz it saves the day so often against StP and PtE, I would play 4 but it looks too clunky to play 4...
What's your actual list Gui?
Well, It varies a lot, but I've been testing some non-usual things... but since i'm not playing any tourneys now, got no definitive list... I would probably say something close to the first page list, with few differences...
It is usefull... but it's slower... not sure about 3, or 4... but it's not impossible at all. Just keep in mind it works better when you play a pump before it, and then your oponent tries to 2-for-1 you, so, not ditching all of my cheap 1cc for it...
Xanthos
11-09-2009, 12:05 PM
This never gets old...
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/1262/clipboard01ztm.th.jpg (http://img4.imageshack.us/i/clipboard01ztm.jpg/)
umbowta
11-09-2009, 02:12 PM
This never gets old...
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/1262/clipboard01ztm.th.jpg (http://img4.imageshack.us/i/clipboard01ztm.jpg/)
:smile: I know. Last Tuesday I ripped a turn 2 kill vs Vial Goblins. I went turn one Forest> Scryb Sprite! He played Mountain>Vial. I untap, draw Invigorate off the top and go Forest>Might of Old Krosa>Invigorate>Invigorate>Berserk...Swing for 26! My opponent sat in stunned silence for a moment, so I said,"Now you can say you've been killed on turn 2 by a Scryb Sprite". He replied, "Yeah. Just what I always wanted to say".
Xanthos
11-09-2009, 11:48 PM
What is your deck list looking like? I'm wondering where you're substituting to use Scryb Sprites.
umbowta
11-10-2009, 10:33 PM
What is your deck list looking like? I'm wondering where you're substituting to use Scryb Sprites.
Right now I'm running $cryb $prites! over Slippery Bogle because I like the evasion. Vines Of Vastwood likes evasion too.
The only other departure from the generally agreed to list is that I'm currently testing 13 Forest, 2x Pendelhaven, and 3x Horizon Canopy over the fetchland package. This is basically a reaction to the perceived meta shift toward Tempo Thresh over Counter Top Thresh and the increase in Stax. As a side benefit, I'm enjoying the decrease in mulligans due to one or no land hands, and the reduction in shuffling.
Right now I'm running $cryb $prites! over Slippery Bogle because I like the evasion. Vines Of Vastwood likes evasion too.
The only other departure from the generally agreed to list is that I'm currently testing 13 Forest, 2x Pendelhaven, and 3x Horizon Canopy over the fetchland package. This is basically a reaction to the perceived meta shift toward Tempo Thresh over Counter Top Thresh and the increase in Stax. As a side benefit, I'm enjoying the decrease in mulligans due to one or no land hands, and the reduction in shuffling.
Well, it's not impressive that you are not getting one or no land hands, you run exactly the same amount of green mana than us, but with little more utility and a little less wasteland-proof ;D
Do you run nettle? Since you run pendelhavens, maybe you should cut them for Bogle? I dunno if you miss bogle, but the 1/1 that can't be 2-for-1'ed is the general choice (or at least I think it is...)
I like running 2 or 3 scrybs, to help the evasion that otherwise I get only from skarg and silhana. If you consider, Scryb is better than a 2/x for :g: when:
a) You got only 1 berserk, and the oponent got a x/(3 or more) creature, and you want to deal full dmg to win;
b) There is a either Progenitus, a Dreadnough or a 5/6 tarmo on the other side, and if they block, they will reduce you damage to non-lethal;
c) Actually anytime where the blocker would reduce the "2/x for :g:" damage to nonlethal, but the scryb wouldn't be blocked;
d) There's a Moat into play.
Scrybs are better than bogle on those situations too, but bogle's protection is such a bad ass... Maybe you don't miss him because of the number of Vines of Vastwood you run?
umbowta
11-11-2009, 09:36 AM
Well, it's not impressive that you are not getting one or no land hands, you run exactly the same amount of green mana than us, but with little more utility and a little less wasteland-proof ;D:confused: The Fetchland manabase has 8 fetch and 9 Forest. That's exactly 9 lands capable of tapping for :g:. This costs games against Stax when you can't swing through a Ghostly Prison or two until you drawn half(exagerating) of your deck. The manabase I'm testing provides 18 lands that tap for :g: and provide additional utility. The fact that it's a little less wasteland proof is mitigated, in theory, by:
1. additional up front consistency
2. additional utility
3. stronger manabases across the format due to new fetchlands enabling basics which is slowly causing Wasteland to become less effective which will inevitably lead to it being played less.
Do you run nettle? Since you run pendelhavens, maybe you should cut them for Bogle? I dunno if you miss bogle, but the 1/1 that can't be 2-for-1'ed is the general choice (or at least I think it is...)No, I dont run Nettle. My one drops are Sprites, Pit-Skulk, and Elite. You're probably right about bogle, though the goal is to get in there. Without natural evasion, bogle requires that you have either Rancor or Berserk to force it through.
I like running 2 or 3 scrybs, to help the evasion that otherwise I get only from skarg and silhana. If you consider, Scryb is better than a 2/x for :g: when:
a) You got only 1 berserk, and the oponent got a x/(3 or more) creature, and you want to deal full dmg to win;
b) There is a either Progenitus, a Dreadnough or a 5/6 tarmo on the other side, and if they block, they will reduce you damage to non-lethal;
c) Actually anytime where the blocker would reduce the "2/x for :g:" damage to nonlethal, but the scryb wouldn't be blocked;
d) There's a Moat into play.
Scrybs are better than bogle on those situations too, but bogle's protection is such a bad ass... Maybe you don't miss him because of the number of Vines of Vastwood you run?These situations exactly!...except bogle is 1/1, not 2/x :smile: If bogle was 2/x it would replace Elite in a heartbeat. I don't miss bogle and I run 2 VoV for now.
Well... actually, when we run a fetchland version, the maximun usually used is 7, with 10~11 forests, and, as said before, some of us (including me) don't run fetchlands, specially when not playing tarmogoyf maindeck.
And even so, only things that affects fetchlands are stifles or moons, which are less common than wastelands. Besides, moons also affects you, and are even worse.
So, it's almost the same amount of land for almost every matchup, while you got more business, and I shall handle land-haters better. Specially because I run 18 plain forests.
But about bogle, I agree with you, the Scrybs are a house, and Bogle are plain 1/1 when you got VoV or silhanas... Maybe I'll give scrybs another try (which is really another, since I already tested it a lot, and know it's good.)
umbowta
11-11-2009, 12:51 PM
Well... actually, when we run a fetchland version, the maximun usually used is 7, with 10~11 forests, and, as said before, some of us (including me) don't run fetchlands, specially when not playing tarmogoyf maindeck.
And even so, only things that affects fetchlands are stifles or moons, which are less common than wastelands. Besides, moons also affects you, and are even worse.
So, it's almost the same amount of land for almost every matchup, while you got more business, and I shall handle land-haters better. Specially because I run 18 plain forests.
But about bogle, I agree with you, the Scrybs are a house, and Bogle are plain 1/1 when you got VoV or silhanas... Maybe I'll give scrybs another try (which is really another, since I already tested it a lot, and know it's good.)
[EDIT] It feels so noobish to be discussing Scryb Sprites in a competive environment...but hey, they get the job done.[/noob moment]
18 forests? I tried that and the up front consistency was nice but I didn't like the land flood in the late game. That's when I started adding Horizon Canopy one at a time. I'm up to three now and I'm considering a fourth.
Do me a favor and toss in a pair of Pendlehavens when you go to the Scryb Sprites and let me know how you feel. Then give some Canopys a try. I really like canopy so far but I'm undecided on Pendelhaven.
swordoffireandice
11-12-2009, 10:11 AM
[QUOTE=Gui_Brasil;399983]Well... actually, when we run a fetchland version, the maximun usually used is 7, with 10~11 forests, and, as said before, some of us (including me) don't run fetchlands, specially when not playing tarmogoyf maindeck.
QUOTE]
About Tarmogoyf.....he is great but does not feel right in this deck. I was thinking of cutting the goyf and replace him with River Boa....The Islandwalk is a great ability against blue based decks. These decks are often very hard to beat.
CHaPuZaS
11-12-2009, 10:27 AM
Testing proves that 15 lands is enought for the maindeck and most games, but when you play against decks where you need Seeds of Innocence, for Chalices of things like that, 15 lands is just too low. I'm testing a Forest or two in the sideboard.
I am a Drain player in Vintage, God may kill me if he discovers that I'm running forests in the sideboard... xD
umbowta
11-12-2009, 12:11 PM
Testing proves that 15 lands is enought for the maindeck and most games, but when you play against decks where you need Seeds of Innocence, for Chalices of things like that, 15 lands is just too low. I'm testing a Forest or two in the sideboard.
I am a Drain player in Vintage, God may kill me if he discovers that I'm running forests in the sideboard... xDAre you planning on sticking to your normal 75? There just doesn't seem to be too much in the board that I'd want in the main over the 1 or 2 Forests that would be shifting to the board. I guess I could see Naturalize and/or Shusher...I guess:confused:
About Tarmogoyf.....he is great but does not feel right in this deck. I was thinking of cutting the goyf and replace him with River Boa....The Islandwalk is a great ability against blue based decks. These decks are often very hard to beat.
River boa isn't a bad creature at all, but it's not the comon sense. If you fell like playing it, go ahead and give it a try. We usually prefer either running 2 tarmo as backup plan, or not running him at all, and replacing with more 1cc creatures or other pump effects... Not going to say you are wrong on trying river boa, though... We all do it once in a while...
though if you are looking for evasion, you could use Scryb Sprites, or even Vine Dryad...
Testing proves that 15 lands is enought for the maindeck and most games, but when you play against decks where you need Seeds of Innocence, for Chalices of things like that, 15 lands is just too low. I'm testing a Forest or two in the sideboard.
I am a Drain player in Vintage, God may kill me if he discovers that I'm running forests in the sideboard... xD
You may also try to play, hmmm, 14 Forests and +3 Horizon Canopy... Seems fair, opens one slot, brings a "God, pls, get me the card I want" draw engine to the latter game, and yet, plays 17 lands, with 14 (almost the 15 you said) hard lands so that you don't get stifled/wasted/moon'ed to no lands.
I used to like running 15 Forest + 3 Wasteland, probably because of the fact that 15 is enough, wasteland may backup if not, and also add some extra business.
Otter
11-12-2009, 01:12 PM
Testing proves that 15 lands is enought for the maindeck and most games, but when you play against decks where you need Seeds of Innocence, for Chalices of things like that, 15 lands is just too low. I'm testing a Forest or two in the sideboard.
I am a Drain player in Vintage, God may kill me if he discovers that I'm running forests in the sideboard... xD
I like the idea of 15 lands with one or two boarded for most things, but do you run any copies of VotV? I feel like you really need three lands out to get a good cast of VotV. I guess I'd be curious to see your entire decklist for that matter, if you wouldn't mind.
I like the idea of 15 lands with one or two boarded for most things, but do you run any copies of VotV? I feel like you really need three lands out to get a good cast of VotV. I guess I'd be curious to see your entire decklist for that matter, if you wouldn't mind.
I feel like VoV is secondary if you already run 4 Bogle + 4 Silhanas, but some matchups can make use of VoV, so maybe carrying VoV SB together with the 2 forest?
SB: 4 Vexing Shusher
SB: 2 Forest
SB: 3 Vines of Vastwood
SB: 3~4 Seeds of Innocence
SB: 3 Naturalize -or- Tormods -or- something else
I like the idea of shifting our deck into either more agressive or more comboish with our sideboard cards. When I was playin VoV MD without Krosa, I've used it SB so that if combo was better, I boarded them in, and also, added 2x Bounty of the Hunt... If we side Vines of Vastwood, I think the result would be similar... shall need some test thou...
lorddotm
11-13-2009, 05:43 AM
I feel like VoV is secondary if you already run 4 Bogle + 4 Silhanas, but some matchups can make use of VoV, so maybe carrying VoV SB together with the 2 forest?
SB: 4 Vexing Shusher
SB: 2 Forest
SB: 3 Vines of Vastwood
SB: 3~4 Seeds of Innocence
SB: 3 Naturalize -or- Tormods -or- something else
I like the idea of shifting our deck into either more agressive or more comboish with our sideboard cards. When I was playin VoV MD without Krosa, I've used it SB so that if combo was better, I boarded them in, and also, added 2x Bounty of the Hunt... If we side Vines of Vastwood, I think the result would be similar... shall need some test thou...
What is your main deck?
For this configuration of side, and the hole Forest @SB plan, it would be this:
Maindeck:
15 Forest
4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
4 Berserk
3 Seal of Strength
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Slippery Bogle
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Skyshroud Elite //(I actually use Vine Dryad here, but that's me...)
4 Nettle Sentinel //(Or Scrybs)
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Kavu Predator
2 Tarmogoyf
lorddotm
11-13-2009, 05:52 AM
For this configuration of side, and the hole Forest @SB plan, it would be this:
Maindeck:
15 Forest
4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
4 Berserk
3 Seal of Strength
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Slippery Boggle
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Skyshroud Elite //(I actually use Vine Dryad here, but that's me...)
4 Nettle Sentinel //(Or Scrybs)
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Kavu Predator
2 Tarmogoyf
Looks interesting.
4 Slippery Bogel
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Kird Ape
4 Vishino Slaughtermaster
4 Uktabi Drake
4 Kavu Predator
4 Berserk
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
2 Seal of Strength
4 Taiga
8 Fetch
2 Forest
So I never got feed back on my Red Splash.
Maybe Colossal Might?
Hmmm... no need for colossal might... I'd rather run the 3rd and 4th Seal instead
I'm not sure about Viashino, how is it going for you? And I'd cut Drake for, hmmm, nettle, or scryb, or Nacatl -n- go white too... But anyways, I think 14 lands for a hybrid version will get you into trouble against few matchups that will break you manabase down. AND you are running 12 2cc, +4VoV, which is 2cc for the combo sakes.
lorddotm
11-13-2009, 06:24 AM
Hmmm... no need for colossal might... I'd rather run the 3rd and 4th Seal instead
I'm not sure about Viashino, how is it going for you? And I'd cut Drake for, hmmm, nettle, or scryb, or Nacatl -n- go white too... But anyways, I think 14 lands for a hybrid version will get you into trouble against few matchups that will break you manabase down. AND you are running 12 2cc, +4VoV, which is 2cc for the combo sakes.
Viashino has been pretty good as it has a built in Berserkish effect.
Maybe -4 Drake +4 ESG? Although the thing I love about Drake is just being able to win on an empty board. When they tap out for a creature, not expecting anything, and you drop Drake, pump it up, Berserk, and kill them. Those kind of kills usually need 2 Berserks though.
The VoV are just as good as protection spells IMO. Protecting a Viashino from a Path or Swords can be backbreaking.
So far best win was T3 with Viashino.
T1 Seal
T2 Viashino
T3 Might, Vines, Invigorate, break seal, Berserk. 22/22 double strikers with trample are good I hear.
But I have won games where I got a Rancor on Viashino, and then a few pumps killed them, without a Berserk, thanks to DS.
CHaPuZaS
11-15-2009, 05:51 PM
I have won out on turn 2 many times, but that's because I've been playing it for soooo long.
So far, most "ĄĄĄWTF!!!" win was:
Turn 1: Forest, Elite
Opp T1: Lackey
Turn 2: Forest, Invigorate, Invigorate, Invigorate, Berserk, Berserk
...
Which turns out to be 56 Damage, even though your opponent will have 29 lives now... xD
I remember to have done this at least three times, with different creatures, the others were with Scryb Sprite vs a 2nd turn Dreadnought and the other was a Jungle Lion which was Bolted as an answer to the first and second Invigorate.
Anyway, with a combination of between 3 invigorate and a berserk or berserk and 2 invigorate is much more common.
johanessen
11-15-2009, 06:30 PM
I'm not sure if it has been commented yet before but anyone tryed Sylvan Safekeeper here?
Otter
11-15-2009, 07:01 PM
I'm not sure if it has been commented yet before but anyone tryed Sylvan Safekeeper here?
The problem is that the stack doesn't interact very nicely with him. Picture this situation: I am trying to combo out a player holding a removal spell like Plow. If I try to pump my guy, they Plow in response and then if I Safekeeper in response to that in order to save them, the shroud will then counter my own spell too. If I use the Safekeeper proactively then I can't cast my pump at all. The only way it works is if they're terrible and try to respond with Plow when you lead with a Safekeeper activation, then you can respond with all of your pump, resolve it, then activate Safekeeper again. I'm not a fan of anything that requires my opponent to misplay.
I have won out on turn 2 many times, but that's because I've been playing it for soooo long.
So far, most "ĄĄĄWTF!!!" win was:
Turn 1: Forest, Elite
Opp T1: Lackey
Turn 2: Forest, Invigorate, Invigorate, Invigorate, Berserk, Berserk
...
Which turns out to be 56 Damage, even though your opponent will have 29 lives now... xD
I remember to have done this at least three times, with different creatures, the others were with Scryb Sprite vs a 2nd turn Dreadnought and the other was a Jungle Lion which was Bolted as an answer to the first and second Invigorate.
Anyway, with a combination of between 3 invigorate and a berserk or berserk and 2 invigorate is much more common.
Well, we could do some extensive math over the "2 turn kill" thing, considering 2 open forest and a creature by turn 2, the dmg would be:
(this kind of math is pre-required to play berserk stompy, isn't it?)
Creatures with power 1:
2 invigorate + zerk: (1+4+4)*2-6 = 12
2 invigorate + (+3 pump) + zerk: (1+4+4+3)*2-6 = 18
2 invigorate + (+4 pump) + zerk: (1+4+4+4)*2-6 = 20 -> ok!
1 invigorate + (+4 pump) + zerk: (1+4+4)*2-3= 15
1 invigorate + 2 zerk: (1+4)*4 -3 = 17
2 invigorate + 2 zerk: (1+4+4)*4 -6 = 30 -> sup?
Creatures with power 2:
2 invigorate + zerk: (2+4+4)*2-6 = 14
2 invigorate + (+3 pump) + zerk = (2+4+4+3)*2-6 = 20 -> ok!
2 invigorate + (+4 pump) + zerk = (2+4+4+4)*2-6 = 22 -> ok!
1 invigorate + (+4 pump) + zerk: (2+4+4)*2-3= 18
1 invigorate + 2 zerk: (2+4)*4 -3 = 21 -> ok!
2 invigorate + 2 zerk: (2+4+4)*4 -6 = 36 -> gg!
From what we can conclude that power 2 creatures are far faster for the combo, and +4 pumps aren't that different from +3 pumps on this scenario, if you consider death as being "reaching 20": just one case different.
Of course I know it's stupidy calculum if you disconsider game situation, and that bogle or scryb may be better suited than power 2 creatures on many situations, but if you are willing to play a version of the deck that can combo faster, then you should do that kind of math.
Also, you could add Bounty of the Hunt, and see how it gets. BotH is better than invigorate when you berserk only once, since 6 > (8-3). It's one point better. (although none of the situations above needs only 1 point, there's always fetchlands...)
Anyone else already discovered this goodie (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=96848)?
Anyone else already discovered this goodie (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=96848)?
Don't like it much, no...
River boa is far better, and even thou, noone plays River boa. Simple power 2 for 2cc, that can be sworded to death and make you unhappy isn't the kind of stuff we add to the deck. Besides, for the 2cc role, tarmogoyf is way better, since it holds the game if needed, play the aggro really well with rancor, and when you double him with berserk, you don't even care if the opponent got something to block him.
Don't like it much, no...
River boa is far better, and even thou, noone plays River boa. Simple power 2 for 2cc, that can be sworded to death and make you unhappy isn't the kind of stuff we add to the deck. Besides, for the 2cc role, tarmogoyf is way better, since it holds the game if needed, play the aggro really well with rancor, and when you double him with berserk, you don't even care if the opponent got something to block him.
Now I'm a sad Panda:frown:
On a more serious note, why would someone want to play Wasteland in this deck? Manadenial with 3 Wastelands? Doesn't work.
Now I'm a sad Panda:frown:
On a more serious note, why would someone want to play Wasteland in this deck? Manadenial with 3 Wastelands? Doesn't work.
hmmm... I used to, I don't do it anymore... it was a far more aggro-oriented deck, and aggro always make use of wasteland as tempo-advantage: as soon as your lands reaches the count of 3, you burn one of yours and one of them, slowing them down while you can still play. Wasteland is also a solution to problematic game winner lands, like academy ruins.
Actually considering, wasteland may also kill a land when the player was relying on his 2 lands to play, and make him sad... It happens, and isn't hard at all.
Wasteland is a great overall card, just don't think it suits the deck... anyway, I always consider wastelands in every single deck I play. Its role is often confused with LD only, but it's far better. It's more of Tempo Advantage for low cc decks.
Otter
11-16-2009, 01:11 PM
Here's my take on the boarded Forests plan:
4 Slippery Boggle
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Kavu Predator
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
2 Scryb Sprites
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Rancor
2 Briar Shield
15 Forest
SB:
2 Forest
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Reverent Silence
2 Naturalize
4 Vexing Shusher
4 Seeds of Innocence
Basically I'm using one Scryb Ranger main and one boarded to smooth the mana a bit more and own Merfolk. I'd run more, but I don't want to overload the 2cc creature spot. Briar Shield to give the Scryb Sprites, Boggles, and Ledgewalkers a bit more kick. Ditching Vines of the Vastwood, it was never impressive, stressed the mana, and Boggle does the same thing.
NecroYawgmoth
11-16-2009, 10:06 PM
...did anyone tested Mindbreak Trap against Combo???
What were the results?
YawG
...did anyone tested Mindbreak Trap against Combo???
What were the results?
YawG
Nope. But shall work fine, as in every other deck... Just a matter of how much you fear combos.
As CHaPuZaS told us, if it's Ad-Nauseam, then you can always try to hit them hard before they cast AN, so that they can't draw manny cards. If it's not, then maybe you can kill then before, or there are other stuff to walk around. What do you fear anyway? Belcher seems as hard as it always were even with mind-fuck trap =P
Vacrix
11-17-2009, 03:32 PM
blue splash?
G/u Serk:
4 Slippery Boggle
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Kavu Predator
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
2 Scryb Sprites
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Might of Old Krosa
3 Unstable Mutation
3 Rancor
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
7 Forest
SB:
2 Forest
2 Scryb Ranger
1 Reverent Silence
2 Mystical Tutor
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vines of Vastwood
1 Seeds of Innocence
4 Vexing Shusher
1 Umezawa's Jitte
i gotta say. im a big fan of scryb rangers. i think you'll want more in the board. unstable mutation is badass. especially when you get it on a ledgewalker or something. g2, a singleton jitte seems good. you have guys that are evasive and guys that are untargetable. a combination of such will make jitte pretty powerful. mystical tutor frees up your board a little more. in g2 you can board in mystical tutor too to get berserk more often. i'd love to run it MD but it seems meh. in g2 you can board out maybe 2 Nettle Sentinel for 2 Mystical tutor to improve your chances of berserking for the win.
thoughts?
NecroYawgmoth
11-17-2009, 07:44 PM
I fear ANT, and it is highly played at the moment...
YawG
blue splash?
thoughts?
I'm not a huge fan of blue splash, but if you are really going for it, then maybe you should try adding force of will somehow... you already run 4 bogles, you can run mimic, and maybe selkie, and should add brainstorm since it's a house... But it would be slower than what monogreen can be... And the hole idea before was to run those blue/green guys, but staying monogreen.
I fear ANT, and it is highly played at the moment...
Sure, I think so too. I don't face that many ANT and thus I stick to the plan of trying to deal enough damage to them so that they can't abuse AN. Pure combo that kill by turn 2 are not our best match-ups, and if you fear that you'll face them that much, you should carry mindbreak trap, sure. I don't think there's a better counter against ANT for us to run on SB.
You can also try the BotH SB to try to combo faster. If i'm not mistaken, ANT also tries to play an Island in the first turn, so you could use Legate SB too, which is mostly used against control, but could help... And if you are running few lands in the deck (14~15), I'm sure your chances on dealing huge damage by your 2nd turn will be good, and the 3rd turn kill too...
If you do all this combined, your chances shall be at least even, but probably better.
CHaPuZaS
11-20-2009, 08:42 PM
I do perfectly know that even though green should be the main color in a Berserk Stompy deck, every color have a little group of interesting cards worth to add:
Unstable Mutation/Slippery Boggle/Shorecrasher Mimic/Favor of the Overbeing/FoW...
Goblin Guide/Taste for Mayhem/Viashiano Slaughtermaster/Reckless Charge...
Flesh Reaver/Vampire Lacerator/Carnophage...
Jotün Grunt/StP (For Kavu)/Isamaru...
I've tested all of them and the problem when you try to splash a color in a Berserk Stompy is that you fail to mantain the main advantages of the deck: Monocolor strengths/No Non Basic nor Fetches and thus getting the opponent to lose the ability to attack you that way.
The thing is that, thus far, there are not enough reasons/cards to justify including a secondary color.
The thing is that, thus far, there are not enough reasons/cards to justify including a secondary color.
IMHO, the best non-basic stompy is the Grw one, with Nacatl and Swords backing up the berserk plan... Even with an easily disruptable manabase, the speed this deck offers, and the extra business seems to compensate it... Besides, Threshold itself always played 3c with 18 lands, and yet could handle the screws...
Even thou, I stay monogreen because I like to abuse the advantage of staying monocolor.
Otter
11-23-2009, 05:20 PM
IBesides, Threshold itself always played 3c with 18 lands, and yet could handle the screws...
This is a pretty bad comparison. Threshold has Ponder and Brainstorm, not to mention counters for Moon effects and Stifles for opposing Wastes. If there were any 3color deck to draw a comparison to, it would not be Uxy.
This is a pretty bad comparison. Threshold has Ponder and Brainstorm, not to mention counters for Moon effects and Stifles for opposing Wastes. If there were any 3color deck to draw a comparison to, it would not be Uxy.
Well... ok... but technically cantrip'ing for lands slows down their moves...
Otter
11-24-2009, 12:09 PM
Well... ok... but technically cantrip'ing for lands slows down their moves...
And not cantriping to find lands means they die in writhing agony when they can't cast any spells at all. If you want to draw comparisons to Naya Zoo -- that works, but you cannot compare mana bases with a deck that has eight 1cc spells that dig three cards down.
And not cantriping to find lands means they die in writhing agony when they can't cast any spells at all. If you want to draw comparisons to Naya Zoo -- that works, but you cannot compare mana bases with a deck that has eight 1cc spells that dig three cards down.
Ok, enough with the comparison then...
Strawberry Dwarf
11-25-2009, 07:55 PM
This deck is quite expensive for my taste, but i created my own version on MWS just for fun:
Mana engine:
9 Forest
4 Land Grant
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Quirion Ranger
Troops:
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Tukatongue Thallid
4 Scryb Sprites
4 Vine Dryad
4 Vexing Shusher
Pumps:
4 Llanowar Augur
4 Bounty of the Hunt
4 Berserk
4 Barkshell Blessing
4 Rancor
I don't say that this is tuned and/or optimal version, but let me explain some techs:
1) BotH + Vine Dryad version needs Land Grants. Othervise cards sit in hand heavy.
2) ESG is an autoinclude. This allows rocket starts and it distinguishs true stompy from ordinary green aggro.
3) Thallid is unimpressive 1/1, but it is pre-emptive tech against very popular stuff like EE, Pyroclasm, Lackey, WoG, Perish ... etc, and it buys time vs Tarmogoyf. Rancored Thallid can be also target for Berserk without total card disadvantage.
4) Barkshell Blessing has synergy with Sentinel. I am not an expert at rules, but 2 Sentinels means infinite pump i think, even with summoning sickness. This could allow 2nd turn win without Berserk. It has also synergy with Quirion Ranger.
5) I love Augurs. Pump effect on the foot. However, i see it questionable. The main problem is that during upkeep i don't know what i am going to draw.
6) Scryb Sprites >> Uktabi Drake. Uktabi Drake is terrible, Scryb Sprites is almost autoinclude, because IMO flying is better ability than trollshroud.
7) Yes, Vexing Shusher maindeck. 2/2 is average body for cc2, it is not bad on its own. Blue counter-reactive strategies are very popular everywhere. Chalice at 1 would shut this deck down completely.
4) Barkshell Blessing has synergy with Sentinel. I am not an expert at rules, but 2 Sentinels means infinite pump i think, even with summoning sickness. This could allow 2nd turn win without Berserk. It has also synergy with Quirion Ranger.
No, because you put a copy on the stack and do not actually PLAY the spell again. So there is no infinite pump with the blessing.
This deck is quite expensive for my taste, but i created my own version on MWS just for fun:
Expensive? Do you think so?
Maybe you could cut out... uhmmm... berserk?
That's the only expensive card on the entire build, if you are not playing goyf, and switch jungle lion for nettle or elite...
This deck is quite cheap if you consider the competitive decks out there...
You can get good enough results with:
17 Forest
4 Nettle
4 Scryb
4 Bogle
4 Skarrgan
4 Kavu
4 Silhana
4 Berserk
4 Rancor
4 Invigorate
4 Might of old Krosa
3 Seal of Strength
That's enough, and only expensive card is berserk.
Strawberry Dwarf
11-26-2009, 06:02 AM
@XiaN: My bad i didn't look how conspire work. It just means that Barkshell Blessing is sub-optimal. Might of Old Krosa, Seal of Strength or even good old Giant Growth are better here.
@Gui_Brasil: Not only. Berserk is expensive as hell and there is no green replacement for it. But the price is not the main problem. Berserk is hard to purchase. Who owns Berserks, he wouldn't sell it. (The same problem with duals, Workshop, P9, FoW.) I am casual player. I don't need it.
Well, there's always From the Vault: Exiled to help you out... and compared to the amount of duals and other stuff on tier decks, this one has the cost of a casual... You can play a more aggro-ish version of it cutting pumps and berserks for land consistancy and high dmg creatures, it worked fine for me until i got my zerks... It won't be a big fan of zoo, but usually smashes control... although it also demand some goyf...
Otter
11-26-2009, 01:45 PM
Berserk is not expensive. The FTV: E ones are $20-22 a pop (ebay'd my set for 86) and everything else in the deck is unplayable commons and uncommons. If you bought literally the entire thing from scratch without scrounging through your own collection and your friends' collections it would cost you like $110 for the whole deck. That's so much less than it would cost to get a playset of Forces, Bayous, or anything else decent that would be required to build any other deck. Other than Elf combo and Affinity, I cannot think of a cheaper legacy deck. The only downside is that there's nothing else in the format to do with the Berserks.
Unless you strictly play budget decks, I don't see how this deck can be more expensive than even most Standard and Extended decks.
Berserk is not expensive. The FTV: E ones are $20-22 a pop (ebay'd my set for 86) and everything else in the deck is unplayable commons and uncommons. If you bought literally the entire thing from scratch without scrounging through your own collection and your friends' collections it would cost you like $110 for the whole deck. That's so much less than it would cost to get a playset of Forces, Bayous, or anything else decent that would be required to build any other deck. Other than Elf combo and Affinity, I cannot think of a cheaper legacy deck. The only downside is that there's nothing else in the format to do with the Berserks.
Unless you strictly play budget decks, I don't see how this deck can be more expensive than even most Standard and Extended decks.
-AND- it's like the only on-a-budget deck that actually proven itself in big tourneys
Ozymandias
11-27-2009, 02:31 PM
Even Starcity Games has the entire deck for 130 bucks, so picking the deck up from someone without inflated prices on most of their stock is going to be about the predicted price.
swordoffireandice
11-28-2009, 05:50 AM
I bought 4 Berserks from The Vault.
Now I have for sale 4 Beta NM Berserks !!! I bought them from strikezone a few years ago.
If anyone is interrested, pm me.
ps I live in the Netherlands and my e-bay name is: t4-forever
Strawberry Dwarf
11-28-2009, 11:36 AM
Gentlemen, we are getting little off-topic, but a deck containing 4 Berserks is not budget, even with other cards totally priceless. And yes, i build decks on budget and i am proud of it.
Ozymandias
11-28-2009, 11:49 PM
Well, for competitive Legacy, it's definitely at the high end of what I would consider budget, but it's still in there. I think that the only competitive decks that come in at less are Burn, LED-free Ichorid, and Raffinity, at about 40-50 total apiece. Of course, on the other end, you've got deck with 8 blue duals, goyfs, fetches and more that weigh in between 300 and 500 easily.
On topic, two questions:
What does the deck's SB look like? Just spitballing, I would probably run with:
4 Krosan Grip (CB and troublesome artifacts/enchantments)
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus (Dredge Hate. I guess relics come in vs Goyf.)
4 Rushwood Legate (So much blue)
And the perhaps the other three slots go to random utility. I think I would prefer to punt the combo matchup and not go nuts with trap/chalice/thorn. Just pray for 2x Berserk and an invigorate.
i-never-smile
11-29-2009, 01:25 PM
I'm a long-time fan of stompy decks and Giant Growth in general, and I am curious about this deck concept in general. I live in Los Angeles, and there isn't much of a Legacy scene out here...but now there's a SCG Open here in January and I want to figure out something to play for the Legacy event.
So I just read through the entire thread and I think the following really hasn't been brought up yet:
-There's a version running U/G hybrid cards like Slippery Boggle. Has anyone considered Jessian Infiltrator? It would allow for a more UG cards to improve the power level of Shorecrasher Mimic in this deck.
-I don't recall seeing any discussion of Groundbreaker or Boggart Ram-Gang in this deck. I know 3-drops are discouraged for obvious reasons, but in some builds people like 2 Tarmogoyf because it's a mid-game creature that can break through a stalemate. Would Groundbreaker perform a similar role in a more aggressive way, as a haste tool that is better against Spell Snare and (to an extent) Counterbalance? And along these lines, Giantbaiting is a tool that works in a similar way, though it also has synergy with Nettle Sentinel and it can break through countermagic because it's twin spells.
-There was talk about a black splash, but it didn't seem to go too far. What about Putrid Leech and/or Dark Confidant? I don't recall seeing either of those in the thread. Leech is a 4/4 for 2 mana, so it's really good with Berserk and it outclasses Wild Nacatl from Zoo. Bobs could also do well to draw into more pump effects to get damage through--this deck is already sitting on a ridiculously low curve and probably doesn't care about taking some damage from Bob because it's hyper-aggressive. Also, if ANT is a huge presence in the metagame, Thoughtseize/Duress is a strong sideboard option from a Gb Stompy deck.
All that aside, can someone tell me honestly what the worst match-ups are for this deck, in order? Is there any match-up that's completely hopeless for us, or for our opponents? Also, how does this deck fare against Merfolk, Goblins, Zoo, and Tempo Thresh? From what I've read so far, it does well against the tribal decks, can do well against Thresh due to speed and 1 mana spells, and probably has a tough time against Zoo.
Ozymandias
11-29-2009, 04:42 PM
I think people generally are justifiably afraid of getting Wastelanded/Stifled out of the game and for that reason have eschewed a splash of any kind. When you only have 17 lands, the all-basic manabase begins to look a lot sexier.
Groundbreaker has the problem that you will never have the mana to pump it on the turn you cast it, whereas all the other Stompy creatures are available to be pumped on the next turn. It also suffers from the critical ailment of diestoeverythingitis. Moreover, it can't stick around and affect the board, even blocking like a Tarmogoyf can.
Also, there is an essentially monthly legacy tournament at Knight Ware, which is right along the Cahuenga Pass.
thorin_the_king
11-30-2009, 08:23 AM
hi there;
I know all the people here are sticking to mono green versions of the deck, in terms of wasteland and stifle proof, and sometimes this works quite well. However, i started about two months ago to test a GW version of the deck to include swords to plowshares and qasali pridemage to have a better game one against other strategies. At this point, i included noble hierarch to profit from the exalted theme (i loved to pump silhana to a 3/3 every turn or making hulk unblockable thanks to this). Recently it has changed a lot, since i included blue. And i think i would never come back from this.
anyway here's the list:
// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [ZEN] Forest (2)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [R] Tropical Island
3 [R] Savannah
// Creatures
4 [CNF] Noble Hierarch
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [NE] Skyshroud Cutter
4 [PLC] Kavu Predator
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
3 [EVE] Cold-Eyed Selkie
// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [B] Berserk
4 [MM] Invigorate
3 [NE] Daze
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 2 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 2 [UD] Compost
SB: 2 [MI] Seeds of Innocence
SB: 2 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
brainstorm is a house here, allowing to dig for that berserk, stp, land, anything we need. Daze will save us those 1st turns, and as we apply a lot of pressure they are forced to play threats very quickly, so they'lle fall into daze or wait a turn.
there's no other deck i tried where selkie is as amazing as here. exalted is huge, so is invigorate and berserk. if they connect only one turn they'll give so much CA that the opp can manage.
ESG gives use daze protection and the possibility to do turn one kavu, tarmo, everything. Cutter has also a good synergy with kavu and it's a free creature like rushwood legate but we can play it in all matches.
anyway, i know that this goes far away the normal build, but this version does not rely in berserk as much as mono G one. we can continue to do kavu invorate berserk berserk to have a fast kill, but i think i can have a very good late game with this version also.
I hope someone could give this a try and share the results here in the source also.
Thanks for reading,
Thorin
Not sure about Skyshroud Cutter... It only interacts with kavu predator, and when it doesn't, it's not that good card... sure, 2 creatures in frist turn, but for that amount of life... and it's hardcast is too high for a plain 2/2...
The splashs were commented by CHaPuZaS before, each of them got it's own set of good cards to add, and it will highly depend on the strategy you wish to follow.
I consider the green version fast enough, and quite safe too, but if you know your meta, than, a splash to help against the badmatchs would be be totally acceptable. I do think we have to splash only if we are sure that it will be favorable for us... We play a format in which every strategy got it's weak points... Even if it's weak point is just being "slower" or "less business" than the other possibility...
NecroYawgmoth
12-01-2009, 09:27 PM
I think the deck needs to stay Mono-G, but I told my opinion a few pages ago...
I am now up to 15 Lands, because 14 was sometimes a little bit to less, in some games... (I think 14.5 is optimal, lol)
What do you guys think of VoV Nr. 4, or are 3 enough for the main?
...also I am trying an evasive Critter like Treetop Scout in the slots of Nettle Sentinel or Skyshroud Elite... Do anyone has some experience with it???
also I am having some problems with my Board...
It's something like
4 Vexing Shusher
4 Mindbreak Trap
3-4 Seeds of Innocence
...should I fill the other 3-4 slots with Gravehate (Crypt/Relic/Ravenous), Enchantress/Enchantmenthate (Reverent Silence), or some allaround stuff (Naturalize/Grip) - I'm not sold on Rushwood Legate, because Shusher + our agression is more than enough against U...
I really wish some card like this would exist:
Nature's Rage GGG
Sorcery
Destroy all Artifacts and Enchantments.
some kind of drawback / opponent lifegain / whatever
so far...
YawG
AlterEgo
12-03-2009, 03:38 PM
Only a thought:
Why not try Shanodin or Rushwood Dryad? I mean, just about every second deck is packing Tarmogoyfs, which means forests.
NecroYawgmoth
12-03-2009, 03:50 PM
Rushwood Dryad is too bad for cc2... Dryad Sophisticate would be better than Rushwood Dryad, but she is also too bad for Stompy...
Don't know about Shanodin Dryads, but I would say that Scryb Sprites / Treetop Scout are better, because Flying > Forestwalk...
YawG
badjuju
12-06-2009, 05:26 PM
Just wanted to chime in and say that this deck is probably the most fun I've had in a long time. I put it together just for shits and giggles and it actually does unexpectedly well.
I run a version with Scrybs over Skyshroud Elites/Jungle Lions/Tattermunge Maniac because I prefer guaranteed evasive beats. I'm not particularly sure about the card disadvantage from Vine Dryad, as I almost always want every card in my hand. Also, a 1/3 without guaranteed evasion isn't particularly impressive.
Also, Kavu Predator - same consensus as everyone else: it's randomly amazing and at other times it just chumps while my evasive guys go through for damage. I don't think or know if there are actually any better options other than Goyf, who is pretty meh in this deck.
I don't think or know if there are actually any better options other than Goyf, who is pretty meh in this deck.
Well, you don't need goyf, play some random 1cc instead of him... it's a personal choice actually, and people seems to be running less goyfs and more scrybs. Scrybs works very well with Vines of Vastwood, which works very well with enchantment pumps, and rancor/briar likes scrybs a lot too... seems like that's where we are going to.
The 2cc card that would be in place of tarmogoyf for the evasion and survivability - and block - would be river boa... long time I don't play it, but it used to rock the blue baseds... But the common sense now is adding 1cc's, and we got loads of options there...
badjuju
12-07-2009, 03:29 PM
Well, you don't need goyf, play some random 1cc instead of him... it's a personal choice actually, and people seems to be running less goyfs and more scrybs. Scrybs works very well with Vines of Vastwood, which works very well with enchantment pumps, and rancor/briar likes scrybs a lot too... seems like that's where we are going to.
The 2cc card that would be in place of tarmogoyf for the evasion and survivability - and block - would be river boa... long time I don't play it, but it used to rock the blue baseds... But the common sense now is adding 1cc's, and we got loads of options there...
Wow River Boa seems amazing. Too bad U is no longer in every single tier 1 deck, although the regenerate ability is still very relevant. I'm not sure what to cut when it comes to Vines of Vastwood and Briar Shield. I'm assuming the Seal of Strengths (as mentioned on the first page), but I've kinda liked how you can drop those and sit on them. Here's what I've been playing:
17 Forests
4 Scryb
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Slippery Boggle
4 Nettle
4 Ledgewalker
4 Predator
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
4 Might
3 Seal
EDIT: Is Briar Shield just like...straight up better than Seal of Strength? I understand that you might lose your creature and get 2-for-1'd, but on a Ledgewalker it just seems insane!
Otter
12-07-2009, 10:50 PM
Is Briar Shield just like...straight up better than Seal of Strength? I understand that you might lose your creature and get 2-for-1'd, but on a Ledgewalker it just seems insane!
Depends on if you're running Boggles or not. If you've got both 4x Ledgewalker and 4x Boggle, Briar Shield really helps out, since the clock on both of those is absolutely terrible. Same thing with Scryb Sprites/Rangers, if you don't draw a Rancor they kinda suck. Briar Shield goes a long ways towards fixing it. I wouldn't do it without the Boggles though, as getting 2-for-1'd all the time really isn't what the deck needs.
Dilettante
12-08-2009, 08:27 AM
Wow River Boa seems amazing. Too bad U is no longer in every single tier 1 deck, although the regenerate ability is still very relevant. I'm not sure what to cut when it comes to Vines of Vastwood and Briar Shield. I'm assuming the Seal of Strengths (as mentioned on the first page), but I've kinda liked how you can drop those and sit on them. Here's what I've been playing:
17 Forests
4 Scryb
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Slippery Boggle
4 Nettle
4 Ledgewalker
4 Predator
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
4 Might
3 Seal
EDIT: Is Briar Shield just like...straight up better than Seal of Strength? I understand that you might lose your creature and get 2-for-1'd, but on a Ledgewalker it just seems insane!
Well, your deck functions differently when it has the Boggles and Nettles, so Briar Shield is a better fit. For the older builds with more non-evasive 'pound face' (Jungle Lion, Skyshroud Elite), Seal of Strength was fine because it just sat and made your opponents just stare and generally let your critters through. Boggle has to be played... less conservatively or they can tell when you feel ready to 'go off' and when you lack pumps to protect everything else. It can be a liability, psychologically.
badjuju
12-08-2009, 01:38 PM
Boggle has to be played... less conservatively or they can tell when you feel ready to 'go off' and when you lack pumps to protect everything else. It can be a liability, psychologically.
Not sure I quite follow here. Are you saying just to keep attacking in with Boggle and bluff the pumps since they can't kill him? (I think that's what you're saying)
Also, would it be a 3-for-3 swap of seals vs briars?
Vacrix
12-08-2009, 02:07 PM
What does everyone think about this?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=98645&d=1260268347
Leatherback Baloth GGG
(vanilla)
4/5
The only place in legacy I saw it fitting was possibly in Berserk Stompy. Likely it will just recieve criticism as an overcosted goyf. I figured I would mention it anyway.
badjuju
12-08-2009, 02:51 PM
What does everyone think about this?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=98645&d=1260268347
Leatherback Baloth GGG
(vanilla)
4/5
The only place in legacy I saw it fitting was possibly in Berserk Stompy. Likely it will just recieve criticism as an overcosted goyf. I figured I would mention it anyway.
It's a mention, but I don't know if it has a place here. After trying out the deck, I couldn't care less about vanilla creatures, which is why I've opted to run none of them. If anything, I would consider running Troll Ascetic before that, since it has trollshroud and regenerate (which is actually a relevant ability).
Either way, a 3CC creature is a bit high on the curve for this deck so it better be damned good.
Dilettante
12-08-2009, 03:04 PM
Not sure I quite follow here. Are you saying just to keep attacking in with Boggle and bluff the pumps since they can't kill him? (I think that's what you're saying)
Also, would it be a 3-for-3 swap of seals vs briars?
Yep. Bluffing. This is a green deck where you can be tapped out and bluff that you pack an invigorate. Not attacking with a Boggle when you are slightly mana inefficient with your drops after attacking gives away too many clues.
Seal is really the last tier of the pumps. Rancor, Berserk, Might of Old Krosa, and Invigorate are givens. Same reason as in the old deck having 2 Tarmogoyfs. They were the 3rd best 2-drop (how often do you hear that?). I don't like Briar Shield that much because it may increase damage output... but only protects one creature. You want to swing with the whole team to maximize damage and use the enchantment as a punisher for whatever is blocked... or obviously the final blow on whoever seems to be the best likely target to uberpump if you draw into it. It's not always whoever you Briar Shield that becomes that target. Unlike a giant growth, it sits on the board and forces your opponent into weighing cost/benefit decisions. Meanwhile, you just drink your coffee. This is what I love about this deck. It's a break from shattering my mind with combos. I blame you, Bryant.
Vacrix
12-08-2009, 04:52 PM
Yep. Bluffing. This is a green deck where you can be tapped out and bluff that you pack an invigorate. Not attacking with a Boggle when you are slightly mana inefficient with your drops after attacking gives away too many clues.
Assuming a competent opponent who knows what you are playing. Otherwise you just lose a creature. I think doing this is more powerful in game 2/3 when they know whats up.
It's a mention, but I don't know if it has a place here. After trying out the deck, I couldn't care less about vanilla creatures, which is why I've opted to run none of them. If anything, I would consider running Troll Ascetic before that, since it has trollshroud and regenerate (which is actually a relevant ability).
Troll Ascetic actually sounds good as a 2 of, much better than Baloth. Has anyone tested him?
Otter
12-08-2009, 05:23 PM
Also, would it be a 3-for-3 swap of seals vs briars?
Yeah, no matter how you slice it, they're worse pump than Krosa, Invigorate, Berserk, and Rancor. Can't cut any of those. There's also no good reason to split the Seal/Briar count, either you're running a bunch of 1/x guys that have a terrible clock that you need to improve or you aren't.
It's a mention, but I don't know if it has a place here. After trying out the deck, I couldn't care less about vanilla creatures, which is why I've opted to run none of them. If anything, I would consider running Troll Ascetic before that, since it has trollshroud and regenerate (which is actually a relevant ability).
Either way, a 3CC creature is a bit high on the curve for this deck so it better be damned good.
Agreed that a 3cc dude has to be utterly insane for us to care. I'd much rather play a Troll or Cold-Eyed Selkie (and I'm currently playing neither). Troll is the most insane Berserk target in monogreen, while Selkie is a great metagame choice as well as a card-advantage machine. A 4/5 with no abilities has nothing on either of those, so I really can't imagine running it. However, for the sake of discussion, I'd like to see a Troll Ascetic list. Here's my current list and then a shot at Troll:
Current 15&2 Forest Build
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Slippery Boggle
2 Scryb Sprites
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Ledgewalker
4 Kavu Predator
4 Rancor
4 Berserk
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Invigorate
2 Briar Shield
15 Forest
SB:
2 Forest
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Naturalize
4 Seeds of Innocence
2 Reverent Silence
4 Shusher
Troll Ascetic Version
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Pit Skulk
3 Skyshroud Elite
3 Scryb Ranger
4 Ledgewalker
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Bounty of the Hunt
4 Might of Old Krosa/Vines of Vastwood (not sure here, need testing)
4 Berserk
4 Rancor
14 Forest
4 Land Grant
SB:
4 Cold-Eyed Selkie
3 Seeds of Innocence (maybe these should be cut with no Predator? Thoughts?)
4 Krosan Grip
4 Vexing Shusher
Obviously using some ESG, Rangers, and a higher land count to try to land Troll. Then Bounty of the Hunt to make ESG less useless, same with Land Grant. It eschews the Invigorate package, since Troll is awesome and Predator is probably the weakest guy in my current build. Since the deck is designed to hit 3cc, it can probably use Selkie in the board nicely. Vines of the Vastwood probably not a bad idea either, they're much better with a slightly better manabase. Krosan Grip over Naturalize in the board since if you can hit the mana, it's obviously just a better card.
Vacrix
12-08-2009, 07:26 PM
Troll Ascetic Version
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Pit Skulk
3 Skyshroud Elite
3 Scryb Ranger
4 Ledgewalker
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Bounty of the Hunt
4 Might of Old Krosa/Vines of Vastwood (not sure here, need testing)
4 Berserk
4 Rancor
14 Forest
4 Land Grant
SB:
4 Cold-Eyed Selkie
3 Seeds of Innocence (maybe these should be cut with no Predator? Thoughts?)
4 Krosan Grip
4 Vexing Shusher
I think Land Grant needs to go. The deck already has problems with lands (at least in my experience it has been inconsistent in land drops, either too many or too few). Having lands that can be forced/dazed/spell snared/spell pierced doesn't look good to me. Bounty of the Hunt isn't good enough to justify the strategy IMO. I think Troll Ascetic looks good in the normal shell actually. Provided you can get Scryb Rangers out, you can hit 3 mana via play rangers with 2 forests, on the following turn, attack with rangers, 2nd mainphase tap forest, return forest, untap rangers, tap 2 forests hitting 3 mana.
What about Ohran Viper? I've been testing him in other decks and he has been tight! Your opponent usually doesn't want to block him so he can fill up your hand, can trade with goyfs, KoTR's, and has synergy with scryb rangers via your opponent is attacking, play scryb rangers in response, return a forest untapping Viper and blocking. If you have one in play, it can turn scryb rangers into a kill spell. I always liked seeing him in my testing with him (not in berserk stompy but in other decks). At the worst he eats an STP or trades with another creature, at best he draws you cards and/or discourages the opponent from attacking.
Thoughts?
EDIT:
Also, has Scent of Ivy been tested? It looks good.
Otter
12-08-2009, 07:38 PM
I think Land Grant needs to go. The deck already has problems with lands (at least in my experience it has been inconsistent in land drops, either too many or too few). Having lands that can be forced/dazed/spell snared/spell pierced doesn't look good to me. Bounty of the Hunt isn't good enough to justify the strategy IMO. I think Troll Ascetic looks good in the normal shell actually. Provided you can get Scryb Rangers out, you can hit 3 mana via play rangers with 2 forests, on the following turn, attack with rangers, 2nd mainphase tap forest, return forest, untap rangers, tap 2 forests hitting 3 mana.
I know Rangers generate mana, that's why I said they're in there to help cast Troll :tongue:
I don't actually like Land Grant either, I'm perfectly willing to consider something like a 16 land, 4 Ranger build with no Land Grant. It's probably what I'll end up doing to be safe, but I think it's best to start with testing Grant just to be sure that I don't want it, then to cut it later. However, I think you're underestimating Bounty quite a bit. It provides a way to dump horrific chaff spells like ESG or multiple Rangers, which you still really want to play because T1 Ranger or T2 Troll is amazing. It looks worse on paper than it tends to play ingame.
What about Ohran Viper? I've been testing him in other decks and he has been tight! Your opponent usually doesn't want to block him so he can fill up your hand, can trade with goyfs, KoTR's, and has synergy with scryb rangers via your opponent is attacking, play scryb rangers in response, return a forest untapping Viper and blocking. If you have one in play, it can turn scryb rangers into a kill spell. I always liked seeing him in my testing with him (not in berserk stompy but in other decks). At the worst he eats an STP or trades with another creature, at best he draws you cards and/or discourages the opponent from attacking.
Thoughts?
Is he better than Cold-Eye Selkie, who's still pretty slow? He's far less evasive against the format and draws fewer cards, but killing Goyf is pretty sick. It's worth testing, but I suspect he's kind of on the slow side.
EDIT -- Bunch of rephrasing, hope you didn't start responding before I finished. Sorry!
Kanabo
12-08-2009, 09:24 PM
what do you guys think about the new card from worldwake "Leatherback Baloth"
here is a link to it: http://mtgsalvation.com/worldwake-spoiler.html
Too expensive to be playable, no evasion/protection.
Vacrix
12-08-2009, 09:45 PM
what do you guys think about the new card from worldwake "Leatherback Baloth"
here is a link to it: http://mtgsalvation.com/worldwake-spoiler.html
Taken care of.
The only place in legacy I saw it fitting was possibly in Berserk Stompy. Likely it will just recieve criticism as an overcosted goyf. I figured I would mention it anyway.
I know Rangers generate mana, that's why I said they're in there to help cast Troll
I don't actually like Land Grant either, I'm perfectly willing to consider something like a 16 land, 4 Ranger build with no Land Grant. It's probably what I'll end up doing to be safe, but I think it's best to start with testing Grant just to be sure that I don't want it, then to cut it later. However, I think you're underestimating Bounty quite a bit. It provides a way to dump horrific chaff spells like ESG or multiple Rangers, which you still really want to play because T1 Ranger or T2 Troll is amazing. It looks worse on paper than it tends to play ingame.
MY BAD. Wow missed that the first time.
Well maybe run 4 quirion ranger and 15 forests instead so you hit 2 mana more often and then 3 mana for troll/ascetic/selkie. I think ranger is better than running llanowar elves or something just because you can avoid sinkhole, and give creatures viglance all without even tapping your dude while you already run a low amount of lands. Has it been tested? Ideally dudes like this that untap would be tight if you could take advantage of some tap abilities, but I can't think of any that are legit outside of a white splash for mother of runes. White gives you pridemage, teeg, swords, Mom, and not too much else.
Is he better than Cold-Eye Selkie, who's still pretty slow? He's far less evasive against the format and draws fewer cards, but killing Goyf is pretty sick. It's worth testing, but I suspect he's kind of on the slow side.
Well Selkie can refill your hand if he gets there, but he needs a serious power boost to be effective (or have your opponent have islands). He becomes another target for fire//ice or mogg fanatic, when he comes down you can likely only protect him with invigorate due to mana issues. I think viper's minor plus side is he is harder to kill. He could find a place in the main board as like a 2-of. I like how he suits multiple situations. I'll test him on MWS and let you know how it goes in Berserk Stompy. I have been playing him in this to good effect:
Power Rangers
Land: (18)
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
3 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
Creatures: (30)
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Quirion Ranger
3 Scryb Ranger
4 Mother of Runes
3 Weathered Wayfarer
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Ohran Viper
3 Knight of the Reliquary
Spells: (12)
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sensei's Diving Top
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
SB:
4 Trinisphere
4 Stasis
2 Rhox War Monk
2 Choke
2 Krosan Grip
1 Forsaken City
Obviously the deck is completely different, but Mom protects him well and makes him a house against aggro, drawing cards, and blocking on defense at the same time via rangers.
EDIT:
Again I will ask..
Has Scent of Ivy been tested? It looks good if you draw it early, and could be nice if you are building a hand for berserk.
Again I will ask..
Has Scent of Ivy been tested? It looks good if you draw it early, and could be nice if you are building a hand for berserk.
Tested it once, usually works like krosa, mostly +3/+3, and doesn't help much when going to a more aggro strategy... I like having the aggro option as backup agains all sorts of control, so, I don't try it anymore, since it's not a good draw mid-range... but if you test it, please let us know.
Also, I think it should be played with VoV, Bogle and Silhana, since if goes far more Combo-ish.
AlterEgo
12-16-2009, 03:28 PM
This is what I'm going to play this weekend (~20 players)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
6 Forest
7 Snow-covered Forest
2 Fetch
3 Scryb Ranger
4 Scryb Sprites
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Slippery Bogle
1 Treetop Scout
4 Berserk
2 Giant Growth
4 Invigorate
4 Might of old Krosa
4 Rancor
1 Seal of Strength
2 Vines of Vastwood
Sideboard:
2 Forest
2 Gaea's Blessing
4 Krosan Grip
3 Mindbreak Trap
4 Relic of Progenitus
Some additional words:
I think seven 2-drop creatures are okay - and I really like my Scouts!
I do possess only one Seal, otherwise I'd swap Giant Growths for them.
As you can see, I prefer evasion and/or troll-shroud over higher power - for a simple reason:
With one Berserk (which I take as an average case) a 2-power-creature (like Nettle Sentinel) deals exactly 2 more damage than a 1-power creature (say: Scryb Sprites). But Nettle will "only" have trample by that time so a 2-toughness-blocker (not exactly an uncommon encounter) completely negates that advantage. Sprites are much harder to block and therefore more likely to push through their whole damage, which makes up for the low power.
the sideboard:
I do expect a lot of mana denial, which is one reason I play only 2 fetches main and 2 additional forests in the side. I also expect some High Tide combo decks, so I thought Blessing to be a good idea.
The rest goes against the usual suspects: Grip for CounterTop and CotVs, trap for combo and Relic for Lhurgoyfs, Horrors and Loam shenanigans.
comments appreciated!
AcidFiend
12-16-2009, 04:26 PM
Has anyone tried Sheltering Ancient (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/121.html)? I'm going to test running 3. The upkeep shouldn't be a problem since this guy is a great Berserk target.
Turn 1/2: Drop SA
Opp: Drop lackey/goyf/lord
Turn 2/3: Give their dude +1/+1. Cast Might of Krosa + Berserk, attack with an 18/9 trampler.
If you had 2 pumps + Berserk or 1 pump + 2 Berserks you'd win right there. Acts as Kavu Predator 5-7 (if you're going that route).
eq.firemind
12-16-2009, 04:36 PM
Turn 1/2: Drop SA
Opp: Drop lackey/goyf/lord
Turn 2/3: Give their dude +1/+1. Cast Might of Krosa + Berserk, attack with an 18/9 trampler.
There is a problem: opp will read the card and won't cast a creature...
FoulQ
12-16-2009, 04:49 PM
If the opponent controls no creatures, then cumulative upkeep can't be paid, and then sheltering ancient dies.
Even if they do have one creature, they can chump and you better hope you kill them with trample or your ancient is going to die next turn.
He is absolutely unplayable in any format.
AcidFiend
12-16-2009, 06:25 PM
There is a problem: opp will read the card and won't cast a creature...
Ok bad example - you obviously wouldn't play him turn 1 on-the-play. On the draw, a lot of decks have turn 1 creatures: goblins, merfolk, bant, zoo etc. By turn 2 even more so.
If the opponent controls no creatures, then cumulative upkeep can't be paid, and then sheltering ancient dies.
Even if they do have one creature, they can chump and you better hope you kill them with trample or your ancient is going to die next turn.
He is absolutely unplayable in any format.
Chumping is actually the better outcome here. It offsets his drawback, and if you kill their dude plus a bunch of trample damage, I don't see how thats a bad thing. A deck like Burn would love to spend 2 cards for 6 opponent damage & a creature of theirs.
Anyways it was just an idea - I'll test it out of curiosity anyways. I was looking for creatures to replace Skyshroud Elite. Its been a staple for years in this deck but I'm just underwhelmed with it. As a vanilla 2/3 I feel he's the worst dude we're running.
Otter
12-16-2009, 07:48 PM
While I'm skeptical about Ancient, I'm also very supportive of any effort to find more usable creatures. I'm currently trying my Troll Ascetic version since he's actually a very Berserkable creature that doesn't suck on his own. I mean really, our current creature base is fucking terrible. Kavu Predator is absolute shit, Tarmogoyf is too small in this deck, Boggle/Sprite/Ranger/Ledgewalker are all 1-power creatures for 1-2 mana when we're playing beatdown, Nettle and Elite fight it out for whether 2/2 vigilance is better than conditional 2/3 (spoiler: both suck). Really just about the only creature in the deck that's seriously awesome is Pit-Skulk. Any chance at finding better ones is important to take.
While I'm skeptical about Ancient, I'm also very supportive of any effort to find more usable creatures. I'm currently trying my Troll Ascetic version since he's actually a very Berserkable creature that doesn't suck on his own. I mean really, our current creature base is fucking terrible. Kavu Predator is absolute shit, Tarmogoyf is too small in this deck, Boggle/Sprite/Ranger/Ledgewalker are all 1-power creatures for 1-2 mana when we're playing beatdown, Nettle and Elite fight it out for whether 2/2 vigilance is better than conditional 2/3 (spoiler: both suck). Really just about the only creature in the deck that's seriously awesome is Pit-Skulk. Any chance at finding better ones is important to take.
Hmmm... interesting opinion...
I don't think so, though...Those creatures you mentioned there are the same terrible creatures that has been winning me games since I started playing this thing...
Of course I support searching for new creatures... For example, I used to run Silhana and Skarrgan before I first saw that CHaPuZaS list, and by that time, they were recent...
About the Ancient, I think it's drawback is even worse than Talara's battalion, for example... I remember when I T16 running Battalion + Morphosis on a Berserkless deck (I had my reasons to play berserkless), and it worked wonders.
Ancient is killable in many ways. And the most common of it would be a Sword to plowshares right after a pump, and then you not even lost a creature, but also gave a possible goyf some extra power... Hard to accept, but it's like the most common set of cards played in hole legacy. We can't always count on Vines of Vastwood + Invigorate + Berserk for a turn 3 kill... Turn 3 kill is what our deck do best with Silhanas, bogles, 1cc creatures, kavus.... Besides all that, you can't cast it without a opposing creature to support him. I'm not sure either if you can put a +1/+1 counter @ goose, but if not, that's also another con.
I like the idea of running troll, but it slows our clock to a 4th-ish turn combo with it... It's something to be considered before adding 4-of any 3cc creature. Also, each creature with cmc higher than 2 isn't useful by the time we can still rush our opponent while they are looking for resources. I don't like the idea of having a single creature in my opening hand, but if it's a bogle, and inf+1 pumps, I seriously always play.
EDIT: Just to let people know that I tested ancient already xD
Strawberry Dwarf
12-17-2009, 09:12 AM
Tested it once, usually works like krosa, mostly +3/+3, and doesn't help much when going to a more aggro strategy... I like having the aggro option as backup agains all sorts of control, so, I don't try it anymore, since it's not a good draw mid-range... but if you test it, please let us know.
Also, I think it should be played with VoV, Bogle and Silhana, since if goes far more Combo-ish.
And what about Martyr of Spores? The same, but on the foot = more flexible.
Very similar deck can be built in monored:
16 Mountain
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Mogg Raider
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Stream Hopper
4 Boros Recruit
4 Dwarven Berserker
4 Inner-Flame Acolyte
4 Reckless Charge
4 Brute Force
4 Double Cleave
4 Bonesplitter
(See, it is all-common.)
And monoblack version:
16 Swamp
4 Crystal Vein
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sarcomancy
4 Carnophage
4 Beckon Apparition
4 Inkfathom Infiltrator
4 Dauthi Horror
4 Hatred
4 Unholy Strength
4 Bonesplitter
4 Cabal Therapy
While I'm skeptical about Ancient, I'm also very supportive of any effort to find more usable creatures. I'm currently trying my Troll Ascetic version since he's actually a very Berserkable creature that doesn't suck on his own. I mean really, our current creature base is fucking terrible. Kavu Predator is absolute shit, Tarmogoyf is too small in this deck, Boggle/Sprite/Ranger/Ledgewalker are all 1-power creatures for 1-2 mana when we're playing beatdown, Nettle and Elite fight it out for whether 2/2 vigilance is better than conditional 2/3 (spoiler: both suck). Really just about the only creature in the deck that's seriously awesome is Pit-Skulk. Any chance at finding better ones is important to take.
That is the influence of Tarmogoyf working in UGx post-threshold decks: all other weenie creatures look like shit. For 1 mana you can get 1/1 with little ability, 1/2 vanilla, 2/x with little disadvantage or very situational 3/x (Rogue Elephant). For 2 mana, 2/x vanilla or with little ability (depending on toughtness) is normal, not terrible. Nettle is extremely powerful for its cost measures and Scryb Sprites is OK. Troll is OK, but it costs 3, so you need something to speed it up and make your manabase more consistent, less vulnerable to manascrew, e.g. Llanowar Elf or Wild Growth. Going this way you will end up with Big Bad Aggro deck running big creatures, which is nice on paper and fun to play, but rather unplayable in general meta.
OK, so here are some ideas:
cc1
Llanowar Elf - can take place if you wanna include manacost 3 and higher
Stampede Driver - cool abitity against bad topdeck draws, synergy with Quirion/Scryb Ranger
Martyr of Spores - Scent of Ivy on the foot, situational hoser of Bridges
Llanowar Augur - free pump for Berserk turn
Treefolk Harbinger - solid blocker and mana fixer, can make 1 Sheltering Ancient playable
Hidden Gibbons - 4/4 body in almost every meta
Hidden Herd - 3/3, very similar as above
Hidden Predators - SB option vs Goyf
Vitality Charm - flexible spell
Chatter of the Squirrel - 2 creatures in 1 card, backup vs Wrath
Tukatongue Thallid - backup vs Wrath, stops Lackey
cc2
Wild Mongrel
Werebear
Spectral Bears
Thornweald Archer
Elvish Archers
Wolf-Skull Shaman
Albino Troll
Vinelasher Kudzu
Viridian Zealot
Whirling Dervish
Talara's Battalion
Boreal Centaur
Safehold Elite
Have to say that I liked that Martyr of Spores one. And that's just because it's a lot flexible... It's a 1/1, which is not "wow", but it's not "damn, 0 power", can be berserked the same as a bogle if you got VoV or if opponent got no removal, and if you lack pumping, he's a call... also good with tarmogoyf, and like a secondary seal. Gonna try that one...
All the cards you suggested are good options depending on what you want... just comented Martys because I liked it at least to give a try, and think it may be a good subject for further discussion...
Dilettante
12-17-2009, 10:21 AM
I have no issue with trying out new things, but my issue with Martyr is... how often do you find yourself with 4+ green cards in hand when you have your pump target and ready to go off? At the rate the builds burn through cards in hand, it seems more like a double-cost Giant Growth. Flexibility, yes, but same issue as Scent of Ivy. The only real advantage I see to Martyr other than being a vanilla 1/1 in addition to a giant growth level pump is hating on Bridge from Below maindeck. Seal takes nothing to activate and sits, giving you the flexibility on turn 2 to drop another 1-drop or a 2-drop on turn 3 in addition. Martyr forces you to keep mana up if you want it as backup. It also makes you play suboptimally when you do need to all-out rush. It's like K-Mart, trapped in the middle without a particular specialty.
I have no issue with trying out new things, but my issue with Martyr is... how often do you find yourself with 4+ green cards in hand when you have your pump target and ready to go off? At the rate the builds burn through cards in hand, it seems more like a double-cost Giant Growth. Flexibility, yes, but same issue as Scent of Ivy. The only real advantage I see to Martyr other than being a vanilla 1/1 in addition to a giant growth level pump is hating on Bridge from Below maindeck. Seal takes nothing to activate and sits, giving you the flexibility on turn 2 to drop another 1-drop or a 2-drop on turn 3 in addition. Martyr forces you to keep mana up if you want it as backup. It also makes you play suboptimally when you do need to all-out rush. It's like K-Mart, trapped in the middle without a particular specialty.
Was considering that myself... I was actually doing some calcs on it... you will usually have 1, 2 or 3 lands in hand, and that means 4~6 green cards in hand first turn. Considering you need an extra card, which is the creature, but you usually combo turn 2~3, you will draw 2~3 cards, and also discarding the casted spell/creature, which means 4~6 (6 would be wtf) green cards in hand if you try the combo with the first creature played. In the best case scenario, you got both a bogle/silhana/VoV+creature, and a berserk. In the worst case, your hand will be far more inclined to aggro beatdown-ing. In the first case, perfect, as long as noone counter your berserk, I guess... In the second, 1/1 vanilla sux, but it may be kept as a resource against blocking, and it increases goyfs if you use then...
Well, very theorical, nothing pratical... will have to test it.
Dilettante
12-17-2009, 10:51 AM
Was considering that myself... I was actually doing some calcs on it... you will usually have 1, 2 or 3 lands in hand, and that means 4~6 green cards in hand first turn. Considering you need an extra card, which is the creature, but you usually combo turn 2~3, you will draw 2~3 cards, and also discarding the casted spell/creature, which means 4~6 (6 would be wtf) green cards in hand if you try the combo with the first creature played. In the best case scenario, you got both a bogle/silhana/VoV+creature, and a berserk. In the worst case, your hand will be far more inclined to aggro beatdown-ing. In the first case, perfect, as long as noone counter your berserk, I guess... In the second, 1/1 vanilla sux, but it may be kept as a resource against blocking, and it increases goyfs if you use then...
Well, very theorical, nothing pratical... will have to test it.
I run an 18-land variant (not much changed from when Kapuzlas posted) and find myself with generally 2-4 land through the whole game. If on play, Turn 1, down to 5 cards. Turn 2, if you play just a 2-drop, down to 4 cards. Turn 3, in theory 'go time', 5 cards, with 1 land... and that's if you RELY on your turn 2 play not getting removed. If on the draw, it looks a little better. But in either case, the Martyr prevents you from wanting to blindly go the all-aggro early route. I see the combo route as a 'fallback' or 'helpful' for when you can't just pound through, since there are only 4 Berserks in the deck. And all it takes is 1 counter to screw you if you rely on it. I could be a little too risk-adverse, but... everyone has their own style :)
I run an 18-land variant (not much changed from when Kapuzlas posted) and find myself with generally 2-4 land through the whole game. If on play, Turn 1, down to 5 cards. Turn 2, if you play just a 2-drop, down to 4 cards. Turn 3, in theory 'go time', 5 cards, with 1 land... and that's if you RELY on your turn 2 play not getting removed. If on the draw, it looks a little better. But in either case, the Martyr prevents you from wanting to blindly go the all-aggro early route. I see the combo route as a 'fallback' or 'helpful' for when you can't just pound through, since there are only 4 Berserks in the deck. And all it takes is 1 counter to screw you if you rely on it. I could be a little too risk-adverse, but... everyone has their own style :)
Yeah yeah, I completly agree with you on that point... combo should be seen as an option, really... but I like trying the both variants, the more aggroish and the comboish... As I said, when it comes to a more aggro hand (even in the variant that runs more pumps), I need further testing to see how helpful would that be a 1/1 with a sacrifice-pump ability... that's why I need to test... But your point is totally clear and reasonable. ^_^
Otter
12-17-2009, 02:48 PM
Hmmm... interesting opinion...
I don't think so, though...Those creatures you mentioned there are the same terrible creatures that has been winning me games since I started playing this thing...
I'm not saying the deck doesn't work decently as it is because the creatures do have synergy with Berserk and I'm not saying I have better options than our current creatures, but the creatures are still awful. I notice it every time I get one of those games where I draw 1-2 pump spells and the rest creatures and lands. Try to beat Zoo or Goblins with a draw like that, it's embarrassingly difficult. Since we're in monogreen and can't fix our draws, I'd really like to have the worse draws be a bit more competitive than they currently are.
I like the idea of running troll, but it slows our clock to a 4th-ish turn combo with it... It's something to be considered before adding 4-of any 3cc creature. Also, each creature with cmc higher than 2 isn't useful by the time we can still rush our opponent while they are looking for resources. I don't like the idea of having a single creature in my opening hand, but if it's a bogle, and inf+1 pumps, I seriously always play.
This doesn't really make much sense. If you have the cards to combo out earlier, you can use it on a different creature and still kill them earlier. Troll is one of the best cards you could want if the game drags out a little bit and realistically, most games with this deck don't end before turn three. Granted, I haven't gotten a chance to test it as much as I'd like, but I really like not running Kavu Predator. Maybe the rest of you draw the Invigorate combo more than I do, but I end up using the Predators as terrible 1G 2/2 tramples a lot more than I would like. Also, t2 Troll off of ESG is insane.
This doesn't really make much sense. If you have the cards to combo out earlier, you can use it on a different creature and still kill them earlier. Troll is one of the best cards you could want if the game drags out a little bit and realistically, most games with this deck don't end before turn three. Granted, I haven't gotten a chance to test it as much as I'd like, but I really like not running Kavu Predator. Maybe the rest of you draw the Invigorate combo more than I do, but I end up using the Predators as terrible 1G 2/2 tramples a lot more than I would like. Also, t2 Troll off of ESG is insane.
It's wierd, because I like kavu predator a lot, even more than it's common maybe... I like it a lot when my opponent has any sort of life-gain, like it ok when they get something to chump-block me and I play some growth over him, and I everytime that invigorate comes, it owns the game. Not that it's common, but statistically speaking, it's not hard. you have like 20% chance of having it in the start hand, and like 40% of having it by turn 3... And it's quite unusual to find a 2/2 2cc creature with 2 abilities....
badjuju
12-17-2009, 04:21 PM
The more I play this deck, the more I want to put Troll in it. Our creature base is really just too underwhelming against ANY aggro deck in the format. I think that going mass evasion / shroud has been the best option for me, as we can't really compete that well in the red zone, going for the throat before they get yours is probably the best idea.
So, in short, I prefer a more combo-ish version. I understand that it doesn't always happen, but mono-G can only offer so many beaters that can actually fight against other decks. Most of the time I just play dudes to chump block while I wait for some pump for my Ledgewalker. I also feel like I have too many lands (same as Otter). Going Troll + ESG might be something I'm going to finally try.
Otter
12-17-2009, 05:02 PM
It's wierd, because I like kavu predator a lot, even more than it's common maybe... I like it a lot when my opponent has any sort of life-gain, like it ok when they get something to chump-block me and I play some growth over him, and I everytime that invigorate comes, it owns the game. Not that it's common, but statistically speaking, it's not hard. you have like 20% chance of having it in the start hand, and like 40% of having it by turn 3... And it's quite unusual to find a 2/2 2cc creature with 2 abilities....
In all of my testing, I the only relevant lifegain I have ever seen my opponent play in legacy are Rhox War Monks and the occasional Kitchen Finks. UWx Landstill isn't going to Wish for Pulse if I have a Predator out, and that's about it. Only other lifegain I can think of is Nomad Stadium from Stax/43lands and Baneslayer from Stax, but we shouldn't get to a point in the game where those usually come online.
As for a 2/2 for 2 with 2 abilities, well that's only relevant if the abilities are consistently useful (see: quote in my sig). Trample is the worst form of evasion to begin with (especially on small creatures) and our Rancors and Berserks already give trample. The lifegain is only seriously relevant if you have Invigorate/Seeds or you're against RWM/Finks. Dropping it as a 2/2 for 2 that trades with Lord of Atlantis/Goblin Ringleader and dies to Kird Ape isn't my idea of a serious 2-drop. At least Scryb Ranger is evasive, trashes fish, and fixes your mana.
Kavu's problems are compounded by how amazingly godawful and slow they are if you draw multiples. The normal solution to this would be to play Bounty of the Hunt or just fewer Predators. Playing Bounty means eschewing Invigorate (usually, maybe you could squeeze in some Bounty elsewhere), which makes Predator bad and playing fewer Predators means Invigorate is less impressive in the deck, which doesn't help either. It's an issue that seems to spiral out of control.
In all of my testing, I the only relevant lifegain I have ever seen my opponent play in legacy are Rhox War Monks and the occasional Kitchen Finks. UWx Landstill isn't going to Wish for Pulse if I have a Predator out, and that's about it. Only other lifegain I can think of is Nomad Stadium from Stax/43lands and Baneslayer from Stax, but we shouldn't get to a point in the game where those usually come online.
As for a 2/2 for 2 with 2 abilities, well that's only relevant if the abilities are consistently useful (see: quote in my sig). Trample is the worst form of evasion to begin with (especially on small creatures) and our Rancors and Berserks already give trample. The lifegain is only seriously relevant if you have Invigorate/Seeds or you're against RWM/Finks. Dropping it as a 2/2 for 2 that trades with Lord of Atlantis/Goblin Ringleader and dies to Kird Ape isn't my idea of a serious 2-drop. At least Scryb Ranger is evasive, trashes fish, and fixes your mana.
Kavu's problems are compounded by how amazingly godawful and slow they are if you draw multiples. The normal solution to this would be to play Bounty of the Hunt or just fewer Predators. Playing Bounty means eschewing Invigorate (usually, maybe you could squeeze in some Bounty elsewhere), which makes Predator bad and playing fewer Predators means Invigorate is less impressive in the deck, which doesn't help either. It's an issue that seems to spiral out of control.
Well, i can't say tou are wrong, all I can say is that maybe you didn't see kavu+invigorate winning you games much... well, I did, and I wouldn't cut it, but if you think they don't work, all I can say is that you shouldn't play it... I cut my stuff from deck all the time with that same felling... I've cut fetchies, land grants, river boa, jungle lion... If you get better result not running kavu, let us know ^^
AcidFiend
12-17-2009, 06:59 PM
I'm also surprised by the cutting of Kavu by some, but whatever works for you. Predator shenanigans is the main reason I play this deck. Also I like seeing multiple Kavu's.. makes every Invigorate twice as good. Anyways..
Last few days I've been testing adding 3x Quirion Ranger & 3x Talara's Battalion. I figured without Ranger I had no chance of casting Talara (I'm running 15 + 4 ESG). Seems I keep getting stuck with Talara + pumps in my opening grip, or double Talara etc, its really been sucking. I'll give it a few more days, could just be bad beats, but yeah.. I'll probably replace them both with Bogle & Troll.
I'm also surprised by the cutting of Kavu by some, but whatever works for you. Predator shenanigans is the main reason I play this deck. Also I like seeing multiple Kavu's.. makes every Invigorate twice as good. Anyways..
Last few days I've been testing adding 3x Quirion Ranger & 3x Talara's Battalion. I figured without Ranger I had no chance of casting Talara (I'm running 15 + 4 ESG). Seems I keep getting stuck with Talara + pumps in my opening grip, or double Talara etc, its really been sucking. I'll give it a few more days, could just be bad beats, but yeah.. I'll probably replace them both with Bogle & Troll.
Talara's best tricks are manamorphosis and land grants... and BotH... But it's hard to play her, since she dies to lightning bolt... It's not impossible, but not that of a house.
CHaPuZaS
12-20-2009, 08:02 PM
Kavu + Silhana + Invigorate + Rancor + Berserk are the only cards I won't cut off the deck... No matter the reason, no matter how, these cards give the deck it's maximum potential. Those are our mini-combos.
For the moment, there are no better CC2 in Magic for this deck's goals.
Also, I see many people that preferes BotH over Invigorate... That have been proved to be not the correct way. Invigorate is the green FoW in this format, not the Alliances green pitchable spell.
swordoffireandice
12-21-2009, 09:31 AM
Kavu + Silhana + Invigorate + Rancor + Berserk are the only cards I won't cut off the deck... No matter the reason, no matter how, these cards give the deck it's maximum potential. Those are our mini-combos.
For the moment, there are no better CC2 in Magic for this deck's goals.
Also, I see many people that preferes BotH over Invigorate... That have been proved to be not the correct way. Invigorate is the green FoW in this format, not the Alliances green pitchable spell.
I play 4 Invigorates in my deck, but I do play a single BotH in my deck. In 3/4/5th turn i don't mind ditching a Bogle or Nettle. The surprise pump like Invigorate is very nice. It is like a green FoW saving a kavu from a Bolt or Helix. :wink:
I also run 4 Vines of Vastwood as I have more and more troubles with Zoo decks with all there removal and damage spells...
Kavu + Silhana + Invigorate + Rancor + Berserk are the only cards I won't cut off the deck... No matter the reason, no matter how, these cards give the deck it's maximum potential. Those are our mini-combos.
For the moment, there are no better CC2 in Magic for this deck's goals.
Also, I see many people that preferes BotH over Invigorate... That have been proved to be not the correct way. Invigorate is the green FoW in this format, not the Alliances green pitchable spell.
What's your gameplan against zoo?
umbowta
12-25-2009, 01:26 PM
What's your gameplan against zoo?
Resolve Ledgewalker...Win.
Resolve Ledgewalker...Win.
I don't think this is the only reliable plan, or else we are doomed. Ledgewalker may win some games with rancor, or berserks, but she's far slower than the amount of damage they deal. And what about depending on only 1 card of the deck. We will draw her 50% of the time, and she won't be dealing with all their stuff... and if I remember, they can run piroclasms/fallouts SB without much problems.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.2 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.