[Deck] New Horizons

[The Duck!!]

Main Deck
60 Cards

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Terravore
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Progenitus

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Natural Order
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Island
1 Forest

it's a semi-probant and semi-new horizons. i haven't play-tested it yet but will try to test it. But for the time being,pls comment on this build. thanks.

[sclabman]

I'd say the distinguishing factors of New Horizons from other Bant colored decks are the following:

4x Stifle
4x Knight of the Reliquary
3-4x Horizon Canopy
4x Wasteland

Without a full complement of the above cards I'd really have a hard time classifying a deck as New Horizons. Horizons is a tempo based deck, not a "tap-out" deck or whatever.

[Zoomer3989]

Other than the Worlds Side Event, does New Horizons have any other places? I'd like to build this, but not if it's performance is wavering or popularity is diminished. It also seems as if a combination of those and Bant Aggro might be more effective - I want to try a variant with Stoneforge x2 and a Jitte, SOFI, and SOLS to create card advantage, though JTMS might be better at that.

[JonBarber]

Other than the Worlds Side Event, does New Horizons have any other places? I'd like to build this, but not if it's performance is wavering or popularity is diminished. It also seems as if a combination of those and Bant Aggro might be more effective - I want to try a variant with Stoneforge x2 and a Jitte, SOFI, and SOLS to create card advantage, though JTMS might be better at that.

It had a REALLY bad vengevine matchup, hence the drop in popularity and showings. Now that survival is banned, I expect to see new horizons performing well again. As long as the meta doesn't take a weird turn, things should be good for the deck.

[jazzykat]

Hi all. I have of course a very similar list to everyone elses but I would like a general critique and some suggestions on how to win in a meta that is surely going to have landstill variants. Also, is this weaker vs. Merfolk since I don't have HUGE dudes or is it better because I can get guys on the ground faster and go on the attack with a MD answer to Vial.

I have hybridized tempo Bant with New Horizons but it it closest to New Horizons so I post it here:


// Lands
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [IN] Forest (3)
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [A] Tundra
3 [U] Tropical Island
1 [BRB] Plains (6)
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
4 [NE] Daze
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [LRW] Ponder
4 [JGC] Stifle

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast


It only plays 20 land which is probaby fine, runs Pridemage and Hierarch. The reasoning is as follows:

20 land: I have 4 hierarchs for extra mana, 4 Stife to protect against opponents wastes, and have endeavored to keep the cmc down. Additionally, since we play daze we are often replaying a land so it's normally OK.

Pridemage is a more aggressive pre-emptive out to CB. I don't have as much "Real" mana so getting a bunch of mana up will be tougher and slower for an EE. It also provides obvious outs to just about anything that StP can't handle. It also gives you another 2 drop so you can sit with a mana up on stifle and drop him down.

Hierarch: Even though he is a second turn play if you are holding Stifle he is really worth it and makes Daze more or less irrelevant.

The element of exalted can not be overlooked, while the creatures aren't all traditionally New Horizon's size you get boots on the ground a little earlier. It pairs exceptionally well with Clique which can end a game through a ground stall in short order.

I'm not sure if my opponents were bad on MWS but I was often successful in jamming them on mana and then getting in a bunch of beats before they got on their feet.

Thanks all.

[Ramirez777]

@ Jazzykat: I think your joining of decks has made a pretty competitive deck in my eyes. The deck looks a lot like "Junk", but your version is in a tempo shell. If you could please test popular match-ups, I would love to see what kind of results you get; ie. merfolk, goblins, CBTop, & ANT/TES.

Re: Sideboard
I would run two Tormod's Crypt, instead of the RoP, as RoP hurts your deck severely. I would also take a look at running Spell Snare in the board instead of Spell Pierce, as it is slightly more effective in most metas. As side note, I will probably end up running both Snare & Pierce in the board as I do not own any JtMS. I like Bojuka Bog in the board, but just wished it produced a different color mana. : (

[Philipp2293]

I guess you want the full Playset of Knights in there, they are probably bigger than Goyfs most of the time, but even more important is that they keep the stream of Wastelands flowing, while you keep beating with some other exalted dude.

[JCrawl85]

Before the popularity of Survival, I played a deck very similar to this, and won several 10-16 person tournaments in a row. All of the major archetypes were represented and this deck handled all of them very well. This is the list I played:

4 Noble Hieararch
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Jace the Mind Sculptor

4 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island

Sideboard:

3 Dueling Grounds
2 Blue Blast
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
3 Spell Pierce

A couple changes I would make to this deck now is I would take out the basic Island due to the fact that I predict Merfolk will gain more popularity post-Survival. The interaction of Knight being able to sacrifice all your Islands (except for the basic) can be quite crippling for Merfolk, because without Islandwalk there really isn't a way for them to get through Goyfs, Knights, and War Monks. Because I think Merfolk will regain popularity, people will want to meta, and this also means Zoo decks should gain popularity. The creature that carries the most weight in these matches is, by far, Rhox War Monk. A lot of people don't like him because of his awkward mana cost, but I've never had it be an issue. With a couple of exalted dudes on the board, everytime he swings it can be a 10-point life swing. Post board, against aggro, Rhox War Monk plus Dueling Grounds is extremley hard for your opponents to deal with.

The only deck I really had a bad matchup against was Enchantress, but I tend to play decks that always seem to be bad against that deck. I think most would agree that having a bad matchup against Enchantress is much less relevant than having a bad match against Merfolk, Zoo, or Goblins.

I personally don't choose to play Stifle because I think the card has seen its time to shine during the times of Team America and Canadian Thresh. But again that is just my opinion.

[Eddy Wally]

I played this deck (post 510, the bant version, with a few differences) through all of 2010, and was stupid enough not to discard it during the big days of Survival. The irony is that although it will become good again, I won't play it anymore because after a year of playing nothing else, I grew bored with it. Think Junk will be any good come January?

[jazzykat]

@Ramirez: The deck has been performing very well. I haven't played enough matches to give percentages and to be honest I'm not sure if it matters much. You or anyone else who picks up the deck has to get the feel for the correct lines of play otherwise it is irrelevant.

RoP is actually fine. I don't want my opponents needle (Dredge) to hit me more than once. Exalted does a nice job of pumping up dudes and its first ability is really nice depending on the matchup. You just need to time it right and it is usually not much o f a problem.

I really want to run spell snare but I am most concerned with CB and Wrath/Firespout and Planeswalkers. If my opponent get's to 4 mana to cast CB then I'm not really sure I was ever in the game. What would you cut from the board to get snare in?

@Phillip: I think you bring up an interesting point. What do you think I can afford to cut to play another KotR? My gut reaction is the Clique but the blue count is relatively low and I like being able to sneak in a Clique in response to a Standstill. The blue count as I have it always provides you with a blue card to pitch to FoW so I don't want to go much lower.

Thanks for the comments guys and Happy New Year!

[Ramirez777]

@JCrawl85 : Would it make any sense to run 3-4 Rhox War Monk in the sideboard for agro matches if I wanted to run Stifle main, with out having the Dueling Grounds in the sideboard? I see where you're coming from in your choice not to use Stifle, but with Survival having been rotated out I think Stifle will still be strong against most of the field; outside of Mono U Merfolk & Mono R Goblins.

@Eddy Wally: Besides the obvious troubles with Survival, what were your match-ups like for the rest of the big decks in the field?

[Hanni]

Cut a Qasali. 4 is a bit excessive. You already have plenty of Exalted triggers, and 3 is more than enough to give you a body and answers to problematic artifacts/enchantments.

Personally, I'd cut the 2 Clique's for 2 Jace TMS anyway, because Jace has a much larger impact on the game than Clique does, improves the same matchups Clique does, and can even strengthen the LD gameplan by fatesealing lands away if you have that advantage.

[thecrav]

Having played against JCrawl (<3) several times both pre and post board, I can say that Rhox War Monk + Dueling Ground is nigh unbeatable.

With a single monk and a couple exalted triggers, you can be netting a positive life (lose 4, gain 5 ad infinitum) or just draw the game out as you net only a point of life loss per turn.

By the time the opponent is able to deal with your Dueling Grounds, you've likely played several other significant threats or established an otherwise dominant board position.

[Hanni]

I'd rather run Elspeth than Dueling Grounds. Elspeth helps against aggro swarms too, and with Rhox in play, Rhox can push in the air for 6 damage and 6 lifegain before exalted triggers. The difference being that Elspeth is still amazing as a stand-alone card, and only gets more amazing with a beater on the board. Hell, even a lowly Hierarch swings up top for 4.

[JCrawl85]

@JCrawl85 : Would it make any sense to run 3-4 Rhox War Monk in the sideboard for agro matches if I wanted to run Stifle main, with out having the Dueling Grounds in the sideboard? I see where you're coming from in your choice not to use Stifle, but with Survival having been rotated out I think Stifle will still be strong against most of the field; outside of Mono U Merfolk & Mono R Goblins.

It depends on what you think your meta is going to be... If you're expecting more combo, I'd run 4 Stifle instead of the War Monks. If you're expecting more aggro, I'd run the War Monks. If I were to walk into a big tournament the day after Survival is officially illegal, I'd run the War Monks main.

[Philipp2293]

@Phillip: I think you bring up an interesting point. What do you think I can afford to cut to play another KotR? My gut reaction is the Clique but the blue count is relatively low and I like being able to sneak in a Clique in response to a Standstill. The blue count as I have it always provides you with a blue card to pitch to FoW so I don't want to go much lower.



My first thoughts were either a Clique or a Pridemage. If you are worried about the blue count I'd say go for the Pridemage, he's possibly your worst creature, and you still have enough cantrips to find him if you need his ability I guess.

[Eddy Wally]

Combo could go either way, as long as you had the white leyline in your sb you had a good game. Goblins were usually very doable. Board control decks with elspeth and humilty a lot less so.

[sclabman]

Here's my new list (a traditional list with rearranged lands and threats):

4x Misty Rainforest
4x Flooded Strand
3x Tropical Island
3x Tundra
4x Horizon Canopy
4x Wasteland
1x Island
1x Maze of Ith

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Jace TMS

4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
4x Force of Will
4x Stifle
4x Daze/Spell Snare/Spell Pierce (still working on the configuration)
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Engineered Explosives


I added a 61st card, being Maze of Ith. The tricks with Maze and Knight are too freaking amazing to pass up. It is easily fetched and can lock down aggro post-side with Dueling Grounds.

Jace and Vendilion Clique add a lot of flexibility in matchups where Terravore wouldn't help much. Everything Terravore does is accomplished by Goyf and Knight, so I felt that the versatility of Jace really helps. I changed the land base to accomodate the need for UU and not GG.

[JCrawl85]

Here's my new list (a traditional list with rearranged lands and threats):

4x Misty Rainforest
4x Flooded Strand
3x Tropical Island
3x Tundra
4x Horizon Canopy
4x Wasteland
1x Island
1x Maze of Ith

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Jace TMS

4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
4x Force of Will
4x Stifle
4x Daze/Spell Snare/Spell Pierce (still working on the configuration)
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Engineered Explosives


I added a 61st card, being Maze of Ith. The tricks with Maze and Knight are too freaking amazing to pass up. It is easily fetched and can lock down aggro post-side with Dueling Grounds.

Jace and Vendilion Clique add a lot of flexibility in matchups where Terravore wouldn't help much. Everything Terravore does is accomplished by Goyf and Knight, so I felt that the versatility of Jace really helps. I changed the land base to accomodate the need for UU and not GG.

No Hierarch? I think most would agree that Hierarch is one of your key tempo cards. Hierarchs could replace some of your lands (24 seems like a lot), and you could always cut a Ponder. Adding Hierarch also makes getting UU for Jace and Clique much easier as well.

I think cutting the Island for a Forest may prove beneficial for you. I think having that basic Island makes your matchup worse against Merfolk considering you have no way to get rid of it.

Otherwise looks good to me. I think I'm going to try Maze of Ith as well, as I am also a giant fan of Dueling Grounds.

[ShiftyKapree]

What are most of you guys currently running in your sideboard?

[Dzra]

A friend of mine ran this list today with very good results. He beat Affinity, Zoo, and Countertop. He also beat me playing Dark Horizons (although we didn't play SBed and we ended up drawing into the top). He didn't have the Stifles or he would have run them, but he said the Dazes really treated him pretty nicely.

Land 23
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

Creatures 14
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Vendilion Clique

Other Spells 23
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard 15
4 Path to Exile
4 Rhox War Monk
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Trygon Predator
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Bojuka Bog

How does the latest build of the deck do against Goblins and Merfolk? It seems like the mono-colored Vial decks could be problematic.

[sclabman]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36124

Horizons got 12th at SCG Kansas City. Looks like an interesting list, runs Elspeth and Jace.

It doesn't run Hierarch, a card which I've never been a fan of in this deck.

[Dzra]

Some parts of the list look a bit awkward to me. I don't know if that many counters is needed and I'm not a fan of Terravore. What I'd take from the list is that Elspeth is good and Empress is a key card in beating the fairly difficult Merfolk MU. EE is also looking solid.

[sclabman]

Yeah the list is kind of awkward. I would definitely run either 4 or zero stifles. Terravore hasn't been good for me either.

Empress has been too slow for me, being 4 mana and not having the end-all effect against merfolk as I'd like. I've been really testing a red splash sideboard pretty hard for not just Firespout but also REB/Pyroblast, something like this:

2x Volcanic Island
3x Firespout
3x REB/Pyroblast
2x Krosan Grip
2x Nature's Claim
3x Tormod's Crypt

The beauty about it is that it helps against the 'folk, Goblins, Zoo, as well as other blue decks like Landstill and Counterbalance, and helps out against Dragon stompy (spout their Magus) etc. A lot of matchups get a little (or a lot) better. Stifle helps protect the compromised mana-base post-side from Wasteland.

It's been promising in testing... that's all I can say for sure. The mana gets a little awkward at times but my list on the previous page has been able to handle it alright.

[kues]

3 Stoneforge + 2 Jitte and Merfolks+Goblins problem is solved...

[jimirynk]

Sunlance vs folk?

[Koby]

Are y'all seriously debating bringing in REB vs Merfolk/Goblins when you're already running the best color for cheap spot removal?

Stp + PtE. Problem solved.

[JonBarber]

Are y'all seriously debating bringing in REB vs Merfolk/Goblins when you're already running the best color for cheap spot removal?

Stp + PtE. Problem solved.

This is why I hate this site. Its a REB vs merfolk that doesn't put them ahead on tempo (something your deck kinda revolves around), has excellent game vs goblins (without giving them tempo), is HUGE vs zoo as mana denial is the best plan vs them, and allows you to kill nactals, lavamancers, kird apes, etc, as well as allowing you to win the goyf war.

[kusumoto]

This thread really seems to be turning into an endless parade of ways to bastardize a good deck with new 'tech'.

I have never had trouble with Zoo when using 4 path and 3 EE along with better creatures and counters. Red dilutes an already weak manabase and planeswalkers seem pretty off from the plan this deck should be going for.

If you want to talk about Bant Aggro, do it in that thread.

[JonBarber]

This thread really seems to be turning into an endless parade of ways to bastardize a good deck with new 'tech'.

I have never had trouble with Zoo when using 4 path and 3 EE along with better creatures and counters. Red dilutes an already weak manabase and planeswalkers seem pretty off from the plan this deck should be going for.

If you want to talk about Bant Aggro, do it in that thread.

The tech wasn't suggested for zoo. Mono U merfolk is a pretty shitty matchup, and finding new ways to improve poor matchups is the only way the deck is going to get better.

[kusumoto]

Red seems quite bad for this deck.

Why not just use peacekeeper in the board if Merfolk is causing you trouble? Last I checked they can't kill you when he's in play and you can let him die eventually and just win with superior creatures and EE.

Am I missing something?

[JonBarber]

Red seems quite bad for this deck.

Why not just use peacekeeper in the board if Merfolk is causing you trouble? Last I checked they can't kill you when he's in play and you can let him die eventually and just win with superior creatures and EE.

Am I missing something?

Yes, REB was a metaphor for sunlance. Obviously red is terrible. And peace keeper is terrible in every other matchup, where sunlance is not.

[CaBaaL]

A friend of mine ran this list today with very good results. He beat Affinity, Zoo, and Countertop. He also beat me playing Dark Horizons (although we didn't play SBed and we ended up drawing into the top). He didn't have the Stifles or he would have run them, but he said the Dazes really treated him pretty nicely.

Land 23
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

Creatures 14
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Vendilion Clique

Other Spells 23
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard 15
4 Path to Exile
4 Rhox War Monk
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Trygon Predator
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Bojuka Bog

How does the latest build of the deck do against Goblins and Merfolk? It seems like the mono-colored Vial decks could be problematic.

Can i ask a stupid question? How it is good the interaction of 4 wastelands and 4 Paths of exile in SB? Maybe a more solid agro-hate card (like dueling grouds) would be better?
I am not flaming i am just asking, I too have 4 wastelands Md and 3 paths SB and i feel wierd wasting on 1st turn and giving them a basic land on the next one.

[Koby]

IMO adding red changes the fundamental nature of this deck. At that point Grim Lavamancer makes more sense (rapes tribal) than Firespout, but at the cost of shrinking both your KotR and Goyfs.

I hold that this deck is not a complete archetype, but a meta-game deck to be used in areas with few to little vial aggro.

What about the option of running Stoneforge Mystic + Jittes in the SB to bring in much needed recurring removal? It would naturally be cut for the tempo counters against Vial decks?

[jrsthethird]

Sunlance seems like a really good idea. I just don't seem to have a problem with Merfolk; as far as I recall I'm X-0 against them in tournaments (this might be chalked up to player skill/luck; I win off of mana denial or people forgetting Terravore has trample). Similarly I tend to do well vs. Goblins too, might just be luck but I'm not having problems in those matchups.

I guess it would have to replace the 2x Submerge in the board, if I were to try it out. Anyone test it at all?

I used to run a couple Path in the board, but found it was very counter-productive. Condemn is also a good option, it handles Goyf, KOTR, and other fat assed creatures. Just doesn't stop things like Hierarch or Bob.

[Dzra]

I actually like Condemn a lot too, I just feel like Path can answer more fringe cases. Goyf wars where they have an Exalted dudes, Bobs, removing their NO targets, Disciple, etc. Path is usually for Tribal aggro where LD is weak anyways, so I don't find the drawback all that bad. There's also a lot of Affinity in my meta. In a mirror match or against another midrange deck, Condemn or some other removal could possibly be better, but then I don't feel like I would necessarily be siding in more removal anyways.

[Koby]

Against a lot of Affinity, Kataki would make more sense; even Null Rod. it has the added benefit of shutting down TES/Tendrils combo decks too.

[CaBaaL]

Is the tempo package(stifle-wasteland) worth it on the corrent heavy agro metagame? The problem is not wasteland as stifle it is a weak topdeck and useless against some MU (eg: merfolk, monored goblins) I know that you can find something to stifle in any deck but I do not think that it worth spot (no as a playset) only to "find something to stifle"

[Sea R Hill]

Is the tempo package(stifle-wasteland) worth it on the corrent heavy agro metagame? The problem is not wasteland as stifle it is a weak topdeck and useless against some MU (eg: merfolk, monored goblins) I know that you can find something to stifle in any deck but I do not think that it worth spot (no as a playset) only to "find something to stifle"

LOL
Stifle is a house against Goblins.

[Rune]

Is the tempo package(stifle-wasteland) worth it on the corrent heavy agro metagame? The problem is not wasteland as stifle it is a weak topdeck and useless against some MU (eg: merfolk, monored goblins) I know that you can find something to stifle in any deck but I do not think that it worth spot (no as a playset) only to "find something to stifle"

It's best that you try it out and decide for yourself. Since you think it's bad against Goblins, I'm guessing you haven't actually played around with the card all that much. True, it's a high variance card, but if you use your cantrips properly, you won't get screwed over by it in the lategame that often. Redundant copies of the card are just FoW fodder at worst in the early-mid game.

[Bongo]

How crucial is Ponder? Am I slaying a sacred cow if I cut two copies?

Also, what are your experiences with Engineered Explosives? I have found the card to be rather clunky.

[CaBaaL]

LOL
Stifle is a house against Goblins.

great reply thanks.


It's best that you try it out and decide for yourself. Since you think it's bad against Goblins, I'm guessing you haven't actually played around with the card all that much. True, it's a high variance card, but if you use your cantrips properly, you won't get screwed over by it in the lategame that often. Redundant copies of the card are just FoW fodder at worst in the early-mid game.

I haven't use the card but i think about it some more and vs goblins it has some great applies. I will try 3 of them, they would be a dead in lategame (and with a playset of dazes there are just too many of them)


How crucial is Ponder? Am I slaying a sacred cow if I cut two copies?

Also, what are your experiences with Engineered Explosives? I have found the card to be rather clunky.

I also have mixed feeling for both of these cards.

A playset of ponders and brainstorm are a bit to much against agro decks you want yout creatures on the board as fast as possible. But I wouldn't leave home with out any in my deck so 4 brainstorms and 2-3 ponders are the best combination IMHO.

As for explosive is great against some decks and total crap against others so 1 in MD and 1 SB works good for me. Just be ready to add/remove if needed.

[Sea R Hill]

great reply thanks.


I haven't use the card but i think about it some more and vs goblins it has some great applies. I will try 3 of them, they would be a dead in lategame (and with a playset of dazes there are just too many of them)

Sorry, I thought my reply would make you think.
But if you need me to do that job for you, juste look at these applications of Stifle vs Gob:
GOBLIN RINGLEADER
GOBLIN MATRON
WASTELAND

Those are the most obvious targets for your Stifles.

And this means that you are also very very wrong when you say Stifle is dead in the lategame, because, huh, Ringleader is a lategame card and is the MVT of the match for your Stifles.

[kiwi]

But if you need me to do that job for you, juste look at these applications of Stifle vs Gob:
GOBLIN RINGLEADER
GOBLIN MATRON
WASTELAND

You also can stiflle the ability of piledriver of winning +2/+0 for each attacking creature.

[Hanni]

Stifle also temporarily answers Goblin Lackey.

[CaBaaL]

my question was not how to use stifle against goblins but IF it worths to have it as a playset in my deck

[JonBarber]

my question was not how to use stifle against goblins but IF it worths to have it as a playset in my deck

New horizons is not new horizons without stifle. Play a full set, the card is that good. The full set of ponders allow you to dig for whatever card you need. Even against aggro, you find your swords or your EE quickly (also, 1 ee maindeck is not enough. You'll never find it when you need it)

[Vandalize]

You also can stiflle the ability of piledriver of winning +2/+0 for each attacking creature.

Too bad Piledriver has Protection from Blue.

[JonBarber]

Too bad Piledriver has Protection from Blue.

Too bad stifle targets the ability not the source, so that's irrelevant.

[TDAROB88]

to bad jon barber is a homo
=p

[JonBarber]

to bad jon barber is a homo
=p:wink:

[Dzra]

I always enjoy seeing a smart ass get shot down. lol

[CaBaaL]

got to top 8 on this week's tournament the list i used and a small report:

4 Noble Hieararch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Rhox War Monk
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
1 Engeneered explosives

3 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 wasteland

Sideboard:

1 Engeneered explosives
3 path to exile
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 nature's claim
3 Spell Pierce
1 elspeth


-1st game vs U/W jacestill with humility and thopter-combo

long game we both draw countermagic and wastelands 1st turn noble hierarch was great and I win with a huge (12/12) knight

SB- -2 jace (i saw pithing needles sided in) -4 swords +3 spell pierce +2 natures claim +1 explosives

time is called when i finally stick a goyf he is low on hps and i win on final of the extra rounds

-2nd game vs a W/G agro-combo deck

He let me go 1st (?) and i keep a god game I do not know what he is playing, it looks like a w/g agro but at some point i see altar of dementia and i fowed (i got a flash-back of an old list with defence of the heart ) wasteland and swords on this noble and bird strip him from white mana and stifle on the new troll's regeneration to kill him so finally my knights kill him.

SB had no idea what combos with altar so i get 3 paths -2jace (he had MD teeg) and 1 clique

he let me go 1st and he start with 1st turn altar (with elven spirit guide ) i daze it and on the following turn he resolves one more. I tap out on my turn and resolve a hierarch and he drops a random elf + Saffi Eriksdotter ) and istantly mill my library, I have both stifle and path but i was taped out, he really caught me off guard

3rd game I and 2 nature's claim for cliques. I play safe and rip apart his mana base and exiling his threats (he had a combo with bottle gnomes)

EDIT: I think that the combo does not work cause when the random elf comes in is treated as a new creature.

-3rd game vs a R/g goblins

we ID and go to eat, we play for fun and kicks my ass hard

-4rth game vs mistic control (U/w/g with goyf, excalibour,vial and faeries)

wastelands and 2 stifles leave him without any mana

SB-do not remeber but i think i meesed up here hard

he get vial 1st turn and i double wasteland like a noob and resolve an explosives for 1 instead of 2.. I lose fast due to my mistake and go for the last game

I mull an no lander and keep a good hand my goyfs get him to 4 and then the new troll resolves..(2nd time today) I can not get over it and he resolves a jitte and sword I have nature's claim for both of them, get flooded when i get to topdeck mode and i can not draw a removal for his goyf or a stifle for his troll, I lose the turn time called, terible game a lot of misstakes

5th game vs dark depths combo

wasteland and stifle rape his manabase win easy with a knight

fow for his 1st turn hypnotic and clique+karakas attack for 3 and filter his hand to crap.

end up 4rth. will remove the paths from SB for dueling grounds and i will considare a maze of ith.

[shadowofdoubt9488]

Was wondering what people thought of putting Thrun into the sideboard for the various matchups. Is the mana cost too much?

[JonBarber]

Was wondering what people thought of putting Thrun into the sideboard for the various matchups. Is the mana cost too much?

What matchups would you want it for? The only one I could think of would be zoo, and we already have a very good matchup there.

[sclabman]

got to top 8 on this week's tournament the list i used and a small report:

4 Noble Hieararch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Rhox War Monk
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
1 Engeneered explosives

3 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 wasteland

*bunch of stuff that isn't capitalized*



So that's "New Horizons" huh? With a singleton Horizon Canopy and only 3 Stifles? There's a place for your concoction, I'm sure. But it's not here.

[Dzra]

What matchups would you want it for? The only one I could think of would be zoo, and we already have a very good matchup there.

Thrun seems like he'd be a house in a control/midrange MU. Thrun breaks through Countertop like a pro. In midrange MUs, many times it will come down to who can stick a creature and Thrun is very hard to remove. I'm not sure he's terribly needed in New Horizons, but he's a solid card that might have a place in Legacy.

[_erbs_]

Hello guys,
I'm currently playtesting this list and maybe you have some suggestions. Thanks !

CREATURES [15]
3 mother of runes
2 phyrexian dreads*
4 tarmo
4 knight of the reliquary
2 vendilion clique*

SPELLS [24]
4 stifle
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
4 swords to plowshares
4 force of will
4 daze
2 mana leak

LANDS [21]
4 wasteland
3 flooded strand
3 flooded strands
2 misty rainforest
1 island
1 forest
1 plains
3 tundra
3 tropical island

*Notes
• phyrexian dreadnought - i used him to have a fast clock and to get some random wins against decks that aren't prepared for him. but at times his really a dead card on my hand bec i've used up my stifles by hitting your opponents lands or some key activated ability.
• vends - like his flash ability and able to swing quickly. decent clock + evaiosn

[shadowofdoubt9488]

Hello guys,
I'm currently playtesting this list and maybe you have some suggestions. Thanks !

CREATURES [15]
3 mother of runes
2 phyrexian dreads*
4 tarmo
4 knight of the reliquary
2 vendilion clique*

SPELLS [24]
4 stifle
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
4 swords to plowshares
4 force of will
4 daze
2 mana leak

LANDS [21]
4 wasteland
3 flooded strand
3 flooded strands
2 misty rainforest
1 island
1 forest
1 plains
3 tundra
3 tropical island

*Notes
• phyrexian dreadnought - i used him to have a fast clock and to get some random wins against decks that aren't prepared for him. but at times his really a dead card on my hand bec i've used up my stifles by hitting your opponents lands or some key activated ability.
• vends - like his flash ability and able to swing quickly. decent clock + evaiosn

I think that this would need some tweaks. First the land count, I feel that 22 or 23 is the right number of lands as it leads to more consistency with the decks draws. Also mana leak is not that strong in this format spell pierce is much better if you wanted more counterspells. Lastly, I am not the biggest fan of dreadnaught in the deck as were not trying to get the quick kills and as you said it is at times a dead card.

[_erbs_]

I think that this would need some tweaks. First the land count, I feel that 22 or 23 is the right number of lands as it leads to more consistency with the decks draws. Also mana leak is not that strong in this format spell pierce is much better if you wanted more counterspells. Lastly, I am not the biggest fan of dreadnaught in the deck as were not trying to get the quick kills and as you said it is at times a dead card.

Hello,
- The land count is just right for me. 4 bs 2 ponder is just enough cantrips to provide the mana you need. If you can see i dont run horizon canopy.. i know its good mid game. but i prefer more spell over lands
- As for mana leak well its not so bad as you think the problem with spell pierce is that it can't deal with creatures or people tend to play around it. against mono colored decks the mana denial is abit weak.
- I tested 1 offs of (jenara, elspeth, eng explosives & vendilion clique) the test was okay but im not a fan of one offs. They came just right and when i needed them , thats why i have this dilema on which to pick
- Jenara - evasion with muscle + food to fow
- Elspeth - solid finisher and immune to some creature removals.
- Eng Explsovies - kills CBs, tokens, 1cc creatures, etc. takes care of some of your opponents creatures for your muscle creature to finish them off.
- Vendilion Clique - evasion + food to fow + knowledge on your opponents hand.

[sclabman]

Regarding land count, playing 23 lands is one of the best parts of New Horizons. It avoids the problem of mana screw that is more often than not an issue with normal thresh-type decks. Canopy is the best land to run in excess since when you draw enough or too many lands it can cycle itself away into more spells. Additionally, it's somewhat of a mini-draw engine with Knight. That said, 21 certainly isn't a low number of lands but isn't all that much either. You need to get to three lands to drop Knight, Vore, and maybe Clique, which are the best and biggest creatures to be casting.

Mother of Runes and Dreadnought are certainly fine creatures, but in this deck you want to be taking advantage of mana screw by putting your opponent on a clock. Goyf, Knight, and Vore also are big enough to make opposing creatures more or less irrelevant, making Spell Pierce a good card to run, hitting swords and other must-counters, like Moat. They're also good against decks that are not easily mana-screwed (mono-colored especially), since they're so huge.

[_erbs_]

Regarding land count, playing 23 lands is one of the best parts of New Horizons. It avoids the problem of mana screw that is more often than not an issue with normal thresh-type decks. Canopy is the best land to run in excess since when you draw enough or too many lands it can cycle itself away into more spells. Additionally, it's somewhat of a mini-draw engine with Knight. That said, 21 certainly isn't a low number of lands but isn't all that much either. You need to get to three lands to drop Knight, Vore, and maybe Clique, which are the best and biggest creatures to be casting.

Mother of Runes and Dreadnought are certainly fine creatures, but in this deck you want to be taking advantage of mana screw by putting your opponent on a clock. Goyf, Knight, and Vore also are big enough to make opposing creatures more or less irrelevant, making Spell Pierce a good card to run, hitting swords and other must-counters, like Moat. They're also good against decks that are not easily mana-screwed (mono-colored especially), since they're so huge.

I see.., so what do you suggest i tweak on my deck. As of mother of runes i placed her in for additional protection since i have few threats and i can't counter all of my opponents removals like the black MU which is such a pain to deal with bec almost all of there creatures are removals. MoR also provides combat tricks and is a removal magnet

[bracer028]

i'm having a very hard time fighting the gate. they have too many removals against my creatures.

what can i do to help mitigate this. his dark confidant, swords, jitte, don't help either.

[JonBarber]

i'm having a very hard time fighting the gate. they have too many removals against my creatures.

what can i do to help mitigate this. his dark confidant, swords, jitte, don't help either.

The gate is one of, if not this decks worst matchup. Especially if they are playing perish in the board. Creature heavy draws are your best shot, and save your swords to hit their night hawks.

[Doomsday]

Here is what I have built. Suggestions are apprecaited, maindeck changes and especially sideboard choices. Meta is mainly Goblins, Merfolk, Enchantress, Eva Depths, Affinity, SI, Quinn and Elves. I'm new to this deck, but I've played most of the pieces in Thresh, Team America, Pro Bant, CBTop, etc.

Land - 22
4x Wasteland
4x Horizon Canopy
3x Flooded Strand
3x Misty Rainforest
2x Tropical Island
2x Tundra
1x Savannah
1x Island
1x Forest
1x Plains

Creature - 12
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Terravore
2x Vendilion Clique

Instant - 22
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
2x Spell Pierce

Sorcery - 4
4x Ponder

[JustPAT4]

@ Doomsday: The list seems fine. With the meta you mention though (especially, Goblins, Merfolk, Elves, Enchantress, Affinity) Engineered Explosives seems like the NUTS. Any particular reason for not running it? -1 Canopy -1 Ponder +2 Explosives gets there if you're set on the 10 piece counter-magic package. Otherwise Spell Pierce can slide into the board.

[sclabman]

Agreed, in your meta I'd certainly run EE. In fact, I'd run it in any meta because of its versatility. I'd probably cut Dazes for 2x EE and 2x Spell Pierce, but that's just me. Maybe a Ponder can go. It's a solid list, though I'm not a fan of all the basics in my own deck. They just seem to trip me up.

[Doomsday]

Thanks for the advice guys, I just didn't own any EEs but they're on the way now and will be added. I like more Daze than Pierce because I find myself tapping out on turns 2 and 3 pretty regularly. The control suite isn't overwhelming so I want a quick threat. And I love me some basic lands, although with only 6 fetches they're not as easy to fetch out as I'm used to (I mean there are 4 Knights, but if I've played one I'm not hurting for mana). I just can't seem to find room for more fetches. I know Horizon Canopy is the namesake and all, but has anyone ever fetched out 4 with a Knight?

[daPaule]

@SCG Washington the first or 2nd video match was David Price vs the CB Guy Gerard Fabiano.
Anyhow Price was playing something that looked like a basic New Horizons list but with Aether Vial. Does anyone have the decklist? As he didn't Top16 it's not available on SCG.

Thanks in advance.

[sigfig8]

I'm going to try and resurrect this thread, since New Horizons is still my favorite deck. In fact, I just won a local tournament running a somewhat-traditional NH decklist. See this link for the list: http://www.yottaquest.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=73:3/19/11-legacy-tournament-results-and-top-8-decklists&Itemid=17

The more I run this deck, the more I like it. It doesn't auto-win against much, but it always has a good chance of winning. Running such a great gambit of disruption always helps. When I used to play combo, I would always dread an opponent's first turn island play, as it meant an uphill battle all match. But with this deck, I really don't dread much. Maybe a burn deck would be a pain, but it's a rare matchup. The new affinity deck list looks good, but it's vulnerable to E.E. and now that I've discovered Null Rod, I will never worry about that matchup again. Dropping Null Rod on turn 2 (which I did one match) was amazing, as it stops the Affinity deck from doing anything.

Lastly, I'd like to add that at the last SCG open legacy tournament, New Horizons did (barely) make top 16, so even though the deck hasn't won recently, I believe it is still on the fringe of being great!

[supachai]

Has anyone playtested Green Sun's Zenith in this deck? I really want to fit it in here, but I also feel like NH doesn't use it as well as a more aggressive deck would. Perhaps being able to fetch a 1-of Pridemage could be useful.

[sigfig8]

Has anyone playtested Green Sun's Zenith in this deck? I really want to fit it in here, but I also feel like NH doesn't use it as well as a more aggressive deck would. Perhaps being able to fetch a 1-of Pridemage could be useful.

I've not tried it. I feel like it would be better in a deck with Natural Orders, Noble Heirarchs, and Dryad Arbor. New Horizons doesn't really need more creatures, I don't think. That's just me, though.

[supachai]

Yeah, in testing, I've almost never needed a toolbox for Zenith or wanted to pay an extra mana to get a certain fattie. Unfortunate, because Zenith is a really cool card. I feel like this deck is already as good as it's going to be, as there hasn't been much discussion on what build to run, because its been fairly standardized. Anyone want to prove me wrong?

[deezy]

Is sower of temptation a good choice for the slot usually held by clique.....I'm a currrent Rock/darkhorizons player and I'm looking to have my decks setup to be able to play either or new or dark...As I have forces sitting around and I wouldnt mind using them.....lol.....
Anyways sower seems like a good creature as you can avoid using counter magic and removal on fatties and just take them and beat face....But I saw clique has flash so I didnt know if there is a reason he seems to be the overwhelming choice ....Looking for feed back from guys who have actually played this deck....

[JonBarber]

Is sower of temptation a good choice for the slot usually held by clique.....I'm a currrent Rock/darkhorizons player and I'm looking to have my decks setup to be able to play either or new or dark...As I have forces sitting around and I wouldnt mind using them.....lol.....
Anyways sower seems like a good creature as you can avoid using counter magic and removal on fatties and just take them and beat face....But I saw clique has flash so I didnt know if there is a reason he seems to be the overwhelming choice ....Looking for feed back from guys who have actually played this deck....

You don't want sower. Sower is for decks that have a difficult time dealing with big creatures. New Horizons not only has swords but typically has the biggest creatures of any decks. Between your fetches, wastes, and horizon canopies, your knights will be bigger than most other knights. Clique is played because of its evasion, and its ability to snipe problem cards such as moat/ensaring bridge as well as removal.

[deezy]

You don't want sower. Sower is for decks that have a difficult time dealing with big creatures. New Horizons not only has swords but typically has the biggest creatures of any decks. Between your fetches, wastes, and horizon canopies, your knights will be bigger than most other knights. Clique is played because of its evasion, and its ability to snipe problem cards such as moat/ensaring bridge as well as removal.

Thanks for the reply....That makes sense....How many horizon canopy should you run...

[JonBarber]

Thanks for the reply....That makes sense....How many horizon canopy should you run...

You want 3-4. The last time I played new horizons I cut a horizon canopy for a savannah.

[supachai]

What's the optimal creature base? I know its generally been 4 Goyf, 4 Knight, and 3 Terravores, and while Terravores have often been awesome trampling over everything, they are usually tiny in the early game and become dead cards until later. Has anyone run 4 Goyf, 4 Knight, 3 Clique to success? It has evasion, so it can beat pretty well, and is also better vs. Control and Combo. A one-of Karakas would be a nice trick to pull on aggro decks as well.

[sigfig8]

That's one of the most debated part of the deck. I used to run 4 Goyf, 4 Knight and 3 Terravores, but was underwhelmed with multiple Terravores. Personally, I found that Terravore is only good against lands. And there were multiple occassions were graveyards are removed or shuffled back into players' libraries (i.e. Time Spiral) and Terravore just dies. So I now moved to 2 Cliques and 1 Terravore, and was MUCH happier to draw Cliques. They are pitchable to FoW, they fly, and they act as hand disruption against some of the up-and-coming combo decks. Even without Karakas, I've found I like Clique more. That being said, Terravore has trample and is just amazing with dueling grounds out. For that reason alone, I stick with 1 in the main deck.

[sclabman]

I've tested both a lot, and I still haven't come to any conclusions. Clique is amazing, 'Vore is also amazing. It depends a lot on what decks you're running against. Sometimes a 6/6 'Vore on turn 3 or 4 is enough to get there. People just go "oh shit" and then lose. Clique is certainly an amazing card as well that doesn't rely on the grave and is also evasive with a disruptive effect, but smaller. It really depends. At one point I was running 2x Vore 2x Clique.

[supachai]

Vore has been really mediocre against most mono color decks like Merfolk and Goblins. It rarely comes down bigger than a 3/3 that early. I'm still hesitant to cut all of them for Cliques however, but I also don't like one-ofs. I'll try -3 Vore, +3 Clique and see if I miss them.

[Magicsk8ngenius]

I've been running this deck the past few weeks at my local legacy tournaments in Ann Arbor MI with much success. I run a list pretty close to the standard, most spots seem to be pretty much locked in.

4 goyf
4 kotr
3 terravore

4 ponder
4 bs
4 force
3 daze
2 pierce
4 stifle
4 swords
2 EE

4 misty
4 windswept
4 wasteland
3 tropical
3 tundra
3 horizon canopy
1 taiga

sideboard
3 dispel
2 k-grip
2 crucible of worlds
3 firespout
1 engineered explosives
3 null rod
1 bojuka bog

The board is still changing. I've added just the tiaga for the 'spouts and also it helps in getting EE up to 4 if needed. My meta is a bit control heavy and that's where the dispels come in. I've come to find that crucible is pretty back breaking against any control or temp based deck. I'm pretty set on the main deck though except for the third terravore. I feel it should be another blue card and probably something more controlling such as another counter. I like repeal but clique may be the better answer. Here's a small tournament report from a wednesday night legacy with 24 people, 4 rounds swiss cut to top 8.

round 1 Zoo
game 1 - I go first and stifle his turn 1 fetch, his turn 2 horizon canopy nactl sees as wasteland. Next turn taiga and grim lavamancer. I then drop EE after taking a couple points and clear the guys. We go back and forth a lot but I'm mostly in control and he hardly ever reaches 2 mana.
game 2 - Surprise firespout gets me a 3 for 1 and he's never really in the game. This is already a good matchup preboard, post it just gets really one sided. The opponent and deck this round were both actually of the best zoo can offer.

round 2 team america
game 1 - He goes thoughtseize, hymn, hymn. Afterwards it goes back and forth but I really just can't recover from the hand disruption/card advantage.
game 2 - We play land go for like 7 or 8 turns, a couple ponders here and there. Eventually he drops a Tombstalker and the coutnerwars begin. I have a dispel to trump his force and win that war. Next turn he plays hymn then another tombstalker. I have just about nothing but some lands and he has 1 or 2 cards in hand. I draw a crucible and play that and start using canopies to draw cards looking for an answer. After 3 hits from tombstalker, I'm not at 2 life and the last canopy draw I get the swords. I start tearing up his manabase with recurring wasteland and drop some duders. I end up winning this game thanks to crucible. We have 2 minutes left in the round and we just decided to call it a draw and move on. This ends up being the only game I lose the entire day.

round 3 Standard RDW
game 1 - He drops some quick beats with goblin guide which helps because I mulliganed to 5 which he drew me 3 lands lol. I dig and dig for an EE because all of dudes cost 1 and find it in the nick of time, at 5 life. I stablize from there with some big dudes and counterspells.
game 2 - More quick beats with memnite and bushwacker and some other guys. He is on the play and swings for 7 on turn 2... ouch. Next turn he plays 2 koldotha rebirths, one meets a pierce and the other meets a daze as he is stuck on 2 lands. I stabalize at 7 and it's easy pickings from there. I didn't even see the firespouts from the board.

round 4 Combo elves
ID - I check the standings and pairings and determine both me and my opponent can make top 8 if we draw so we do. We then play a few pre board games for fun because I am not experienced with this matchup. He wins 3 out of 4 games. Only ones I do anything is when I'm able to mana screw him. I think post board I have a little better chance with firespouts but I'm not sure.

top 8 Counterbalance thopters
game 1 - A very respected opponent. He drops and island and then I drop a fetch. He plays a tundra says go I wasteland and waste his land. This occurs for the next 3 turns, he lays a land and I answer with a waste. Eventually he doesn't lay a land I do and drop a big guy.
game 2 - Similar story. I'm able to stifle a fetch and waste a couple lands. Eventually I drop a crucible on his turn he drops a land and an EE on 3! My turn I ponder and rip a null rod and play it. From there I wastelock him down and drop some dudes. He had a handful of cards and didn't counter anything this game. I ask him afterwards what was he holding onto and he said a bunch of 4 drops he brought in from the board. He only got to 3 land for 1 turn and never got more.

top 4 split

In the end I was pretty happy with the outcome of the day. I need to get in some more testing against the tribal decks to see how to play against them as well as if the spouts in the board will do the trick. Also I'm not sure that 1 red source is enough since the two tribal decks that I will mostly bring them in against (goblins and merfolk) will be running wasteland. I am aware that you don't pull the taiga till you need the red for spout, but goblins can rebuild pretty quickly and sometimes multiple spouts are needed.

I realize that meta has changed a lot since the deck had it's glory days. I really thing that it is still easily a viable contender. I have seen some more recent lists running planeswalkers, jace and elspeth, but don't agree with that. I tried them for a bit and they both were not what the deck wanted. Elspeth is especially bad because it doesn't do anything you want it to do. Any addition input or insight would be greatly appreciated.

[supachai]

Recent list that won a SCG tournament is pretty interesting:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37405

Looks like some mashup between New Horizons and the new Zenith Bant lists. It runs a whopping 25 lands to support Elspeth and Zenith. While I don't feel Zenith is as strong in a tempo-oriented deck especially without Hierarchs, I have found that sometimes I wish my Goyfs were Knights and vice versa. Being able to pick which one you need can be quite good.

Elspeth and Zenith seem like cool tech, but I highly disagree with cutting Explosives and Ponder. I have found Explosives to be a necessary supplemental removal to Swords and Ponder is crucial in helping us dig for whatever we need, be it creatures, counters, or removal.

Thoughts?

[sclabman]

Agreed, Explosives is really good in this deck. I'm not sure that Elspeth is necessary if you run a huge bomb like Terravore that tramples over. I'm gonna try out some number of GSZ though and see how I like them.

[JUNI0R]

I've been running GSZ in NH since it came out and I am always happy to draw it. Paying 3 for a goyf, or 4 for a KotR/Vore is worth it, or if you play a singleton Dryad Arbor the GSZ can be a ramp spell. It also gives you the ability to play bullet creatures out of the board if you want to. Right now I run 2 GSZ in the place of 2 Terravores and that seems to be a good number of GSZ to play, you see them often enough but not too often.

[justjake54]

I think GSZ is fine as a 4 of. it is never a bad draw, except against spell pierce i guess. If you are mana screwed you can get a mana elf or a dryad arbor, otherwise it is a goyf or a knight or a terravore or what ever creature best suits your needs. and in a deck that pretty much just plays creatures, that is always a good draw.

[Black Mass]

I think GSZ is fine as a 4 of. it is never a bad draw, except against spell pierce i guess. If you are mana screwed you can get a mana elf or a dryad arbor, otherwise it is a goyf or a knight or a terravore or what ever creature best suits your needs. and in a deck that pretty much just plays creatures, that is always a good draw.

I don't think GSZ should ever be a 4 of unless your deck is dedicated on using it. Remember that is gets shuffled back after you have cast it. 2-3 is a great number, imo 4 is overkill.

[Atwa]

I'm going to play at a pretty big tournament sunday, and since I haven't really played Legacy the last couple of months (and the last few times I played Survival), I decided to go back to my GP Madrid deck: New Horizons.

I've read up a little in this thread, and I am planning to go with the following list for now:

4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Island

3 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Terravore
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Rhox War Monk

4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
3 Ponder
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:
3 Null Rod
2 Rhox War Monk
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Krosan Grip
1 Spell Pierce
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 the Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

After reading up, I still wanted to take my GP list as starting point (somewhere in page 1), since I've already got some experience with that list. Although Clique seems nice, I think the added benefit of War Monk and/or Pridemage still outweights Cliques trickery, although it makes all your creatures groundbound. The only card I could see taking out for it is the Jace, which still seems like a decent inclusion in this deck (fateseal your land away after destroying 3 of them? Yes please).

I don't see Tabernacle in lists anymore, I was wondering if this was for budget reasons, or if it has been declared obsolete? Also, I've been dying to try out Null Rod in this deck (I even considered packing it maindeck a year ago), those seem pretty good.

I'm expecting a meta of a lot of combo, aggro and aggro/control (Zoo, Merfolk, Dredge and lots and lots of TES), I've tried to make the side as versatile as possible (I expect over 150 people), but I'm guessing these will make out the main portion of the meta. Does anyone have any suggestions for that?

[Magicsk8ngenius]

I've played the rock (gp junk) a lot and then I moved to playing this deck a lot. No matter how many shells and different ways I try to abuse it, Tabernacle just isn't very good unless you're playing the 43 lands deck. I mean, I want it to be good, but it keeps on disappointing.

I really think this deck is not the place for Green Sun's Zenith. That card is only mediocre anyways. It's only seeing some play right now because it's new. People have already been realizing how bad it is and it's already being seen far less in the SCG opens at least. It is more suited for a tool box deck which tends to be more controling - not New Horizons, a tempo deck. If you play that card at all, 4 really seems silly, 2-3 max.

Also I don't think that jace is a good fit, but that's debatable because he is just really good and wins games on his own.

[supachai]

Been doing a little tweaking and I've officially settled on this list. I've cut Terravores in favor of Vendilion Cliques and Elspeths. Elspeth has been amazing in testing; it's great against both aggro and control. It acts better on defense than Terravore and has the surprise factor on offense (drop Elspeth, jump Knight, which usually deals 10 damage). Cliques help against combo and control as well, and mana games were won on the back of flying.

List, if anyone is interested:


New Horizons

Maindeck

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle/Spell Snare
3 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Engineered Explosives

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Wasteland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswepth Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Forest
1 Island

Sideboard

3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2 Meddling Mage
2 Rhox War Monk
3 Spell Pierce


EDIT: forgot to mention one thing. I have also been trying Spell Snare in place of Stifle, which has always been the worst card in many many match ups. Spell Snare is considerably more useful against Goblins and Merfolk. Although we lose the ability to completely destroy a deck's manabase, I think the consistency is worth it.

[supachai]

Alright, everyone not living under a rock has seen Mental Misstep. What's the verdict on this? Good for us, bad for us? Should we run it in the main? Pairing it with Spell Snare seems to make for a strong counter suite, and FoW can take care of the rest. I'll probably write up a list later this week. Discuss!

Mental Misstep {p/u}
Instant
Counter target spell with converted mana cost 1.

[Koby]

I think this card is a boon for this deck in protecting the threats from the common StP removal. That's a rather big step forward. How we'll fit it into the plan, well that's a different matter...

[Wasteland]

Hi there,
since i'm new to the New Horizon - threat (formerly played dreadstill / aggrobant / landstill), but think, that mental misstep will give aggrocontrol-decks a huge push (ecspecially new horizon due to the fact, that its just to good to protect the own few huge creatures AND getting much safer into the midgame against fast aggro / other aggrocontrol), here the list i'm gonna play:

New Horizons (mental upgrade)

//creatures
4 tarmogoyf
4 knight of the reliquary
3 terravore

//lands
4 misty rainforest
4 windswept heath
4 tropical island
3 tundra
3 horizon canopy
4 wasteland
1 forest

//other spells
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 force of will
4 mental misstep
4 stifle
2 spell pierce
4 swords to plowshares

//sideboard
3 blue elemental blast
2 krosan grip
2 path to exile
1 karakas
1 bojuka bog
2 tormod's crypt
3 null rod
1 crucible of worlds

For the cardchoices: I cutted daze from the maindeck for two reasons: first, mental misstep seams just better, second, daze IS a good card but ecspecially New Horizons does not want to bounce lands vs. fast decks but play 3-4, then get a huge beater in play. Spell pierce in the slots of engineered explosives, cause mental misstep will most of the time counter cc1 and explosives is not that necessary then (and an U-count of 22 seams better for me then 20) - maybe i'm wrong here, for this choice i'm still not sure...
In the sideboard i think 3 blueblasts are a musthave for this deck against moons, same for the krosan grips. Path to exile against enemy aggrocontrol-decks, of which will come up much more with the new counter, crucible for the same reason (i would like to play a second bust i just dont have place for it...). Null rod seams for me together with landdestruction the best way to beat combo AND theese MUD-decks.

Greetz,

Marius Hausmann

[jeanbathez]

@Wasteland : I think MM fits perfect in this deck, i can think back of trying SSS to counter removal.your list looks similar to the one i thought about only +1 conopy -1 tropical. I also think that MM is good for this deck, but the changes comming with MM to the format aren't sure yet.We will see after the dust settels. But atm i think it could be a good choice.
I also like the 3 null rods in your sb i think they very good atm.

[CaBaaL]

Hi there,
since i'm new to the New Horizon - threat (formerly played dreadstill / aggrobant / landstill), but think, that mental misstep will give aggrocontrol-decks a huge push (ecspecially new horizon due to the fact, that its just to good to protect the own few huge creatures AND getting much safer into the midgame against fast aggro / other aggrocontrol), here the list i'm gonna play:

New Horizons (mental upgrade)

//creatures
4 tarmogoyf
4 knight of the reliquary
3 terravore

//lands
4 misty rainforest
4 windswept heath
4 tropical island
3 tundra
3 horizon canopy
4 wasteland
1 forest

//other spells
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 force of will
4 mental misstep
4 stifle
2 spell pierce
4 swords to plowshares

//sideboard
3 blue elemental blast
2 krosan grip
2 path to exile
1 karakas
1 bojuka bog
2 tormod's crypt
3 null rod
1 crucible of worlds

For the cardchoices: I cutted daze from the maindeck for two reasons: first, mental misstep seams just better, second, daze IS a good card but ecspecially New Horizons does not want to bounce lands vs. fast decks but play 3-4, then get a huge beater in play. Spell pierce in the slots of engineered explosives, cause mental misstep will most of the time counter cc1 and explosives is not that necessary then (and an U-count of 22 seams better for me then 20) - maybe i'm wrong here, for this choice i'm still not sure...
In the sideboard i think 3 blueblasts are a musthave for this deck against moons, same for the krosan grips. Path to exile against enemy aggrocontrol-decks, of which will come up much more with the new counter, crucible for the same reason (i would like to play a second bust i just dont have place for it...). Null rod seams for me together with landdestruction the best way to beat combo AND theese MUD-decks.

Greetz,

Marius Hausmann

I am an old bant player and allways wanted to play new horrizons but my meta did not allowed it (to many zoo and goblins and either you have fow 1st hand or things are bad) I have proxed and try a semilar list but without path to exile (sucks with wastelands), I have 1 volcanic in place of the basic forest, 1 more in SB and 3 firespouts. also for the MD i use -1 ponder -2 spell pierce +3 daze but i think its personal preferance and meta-based. Finaly i want to try 2-3 V. cliques in place of terravore.

[JonBarber]

my meta did not allowed it (to many zoo and goblins and either you have fow 1st hand or things are bad).

Haha, those are two of the decks best matchups. You have 12 answers to lackey on the draw (FOW, Swords, stifle) and 22 answers on the play (FOW, swords, stifle, daze, goyf, and EE). Zoo's mana-base gets shredded by NH and your creatures are always bigger than theirs.

[Nelis]

//sideboard
3 blue elemental blast
2 krosan grip
2 path to exile
1 karakas
1 bojuka bog
2 tormod's crypt
3 null rod
1 crucible of worlds

For crucible for the same reason (i would like to play a second bust i just dont have place for it...). Null rod seams for me together with landdestruction the best way to beat combo AND theese MUD-decks.

You could take out a Null Rod for an Enlightened Tutor.

[Hucastor]

Has anybody been testing New Horizons with / against Mental Misstep? It seems like the card, while it is good for us, can also give us some problems, since our only spot removal is Swords to Plowshares. We can, however, also have our own MMs to take care of an opponent's MMs.

Also, I was wondering if anybody could enlighten me on New Horizons' match-up against Team America. I plan on testing it soon, since one of my friends has decided to put it together, but as of now I haven't had a chance. Is it good / bad? What should I watch out for and what should my game plan typically be? (Sorry if this has been discussed earlier. I've been reading the thread, but I don't know if I skipped over something.)

[JonBarber]

Mental Misstep makes this deck so much worse. It's greatest strength was turn 1 stifle, and now everyone has a simple answer to it.

[sporenfrosch1411]

NH itself will play Mental Misstep because it is the perfect protection for the few creatures it plays and against Vial (which can be a pain for this deck).
Why would Mental Misstep destroy stifle?
First of all, if you want to, you can start a counterwar, misstepping his misstep.
Second of all, its not an argument to say "this deck sux now, card XY can be countered"
Its like saying Tarmogoyf is bad because people play Swords to Plowshares - it makes NO sense.

[bob2008]

Has anybody been testing New Horizons with / against Mental Misstep? It seems like the card, while it is good for us, can also give us some problems, since our only spot removal is Swords to Plowshares. We can, however, also have our own MMs to take care of an opponent's MMs.

Also, I was wondering if anybody could enlighten me on New Horizons' match-up against Team America. I plan on testing it soon, since one of my friends has decided to put it together, but as of now I haven't had a chance. Is it good / bad? What should I watch out for and what should my game plan typically be? (Sorry if this has been discussed earlier. I've been reading the thread, but I don't know if I skipped over something.)

Only runing StP may be an issue now - I always liked the some EE in the main, as they often allow you to trade 2 for 1.
AND EE can not be countered by MM if you dont want it to happen...

best regards,

bob

[AznSeal]

hows stoneforge mystic in here?

Proper capitalization is required when posting on these boards. Please use it in the future to avoid an infraction. Thanks. -zilla

[Hucastor]

Do you guys think that it's still worthwhile playing New Horizons or do you think it would be better to just go with a tempo deck (like Team America or the BUG lists) that splashes black for the disruption package? Is it worth staying with white for Knight of the Reliquary?

[sporenfrosch1411]

I found TeamAmerica to be a lot faster than NewHorizons. While your Knight (or your Terravore) have to grow a bit, to get to the Point that they are bigger than the 5/5 Tombstalker, the Stalker flies right over what your opponent has. Also you have to note that Tombstalker CAN be paid with 2 Mana, which can sometimes be a huge advantage over the 3 mana that KotR or Terravore cost. Terravore in a way often seems beeing a subpar choice to me, which is why i am playing only 2 of them currently. Terravore often sits on my hand while i much rather would want to play another Goyf or Knight, but well, TA doesnt have Terravore at all, so im going kinda off-question here...
TeamAmerica also has more card advantage, solely by playing Hymn to Tourach, and does not have to wait to counter something because it has the discard in form of the above mentioned Hymn and ofcourse because of Thoughtseize, which can be a solution before they even try to hit the board.
In general i would also say that TeamAmerica has a way better Tribal Matchup because Stalker flies and Deed wipes better than Explosives.

[campee34]

Greetings fellow New Horizoners. I have come out of lurking and devoted my first post to sharing my thoughts on New Horizons. I am torn on whether or not to play this deck at the Grand Prix. I started playing this deck when it posted good results on the SCG 5k legacy circuit last year. With the rise of Merfolk I was forced to stop playing this deck, as it just couldn't handle a resolved turn 1 aether vial. An active aether vial meant that all of the counters and stifles in my deck were dead cards, and they made up roughly 1/3 of the spells in my deck. My puny 3/4 tarmogoyfs couldn't race their 4/4 or 5/5 coralhelm commanders and I would eventually get run over. I could slow them down with a Swords To Plowshares or an Engineered Explosives here and there, but they would always overwhelm me in the end. By the time I got a Knight or a Terravore out, they had already achieved a critical mass of creatures and I would have to keep my big green monsters on defense just to stay alive. With the printing of mental misstep, I am looking at playing this deck again. I think it can slow Merfolk down enough to win the race to 0 life. However, I am very concerned about the rise of GerryT and company's U/W landstill deck. Jace is a beating against New Horizons since we really rely on our one big threat to go all the way against other control decks. Once they get an active Jace out the game is almost certainly lost. Next weekend's SCG Legacy 5K will show whether U/W standstill remains a force to be reckoned with. Personally, I would hesitate to play a deck with Standstill in a format full of Aether Vials, but I won't get into that. I think the goal of New Horizons should be to slow your opponent down, drop a big monster or two, protect them, and kill your opponent as quickly as possible. So, here's a list that I think tries to accomplish that goal:

Spells: 37

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight Of The Reliquary
2 Terravore

4 Force Of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Brainstorm
4 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Swords To Plowshares

Lands: 23

4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Tropical island
3 Tundra
4 Wasteland

Now, some notes about card selection:

No basic lands: I have been tempted to run a basic island and a basic forest in this deck at various times. The problem with running an island is that it makes it very difficult to cast knight of the reliquary if you draw a wasteland. You really want to run a Knight out on turn 3 against Merfolk, and if you have an Island and a Wasteland out this becomes impossible. It's not a huge deal, but it came up enough in testing enough to annoy me. The problem with running a basic forest is that sometimes you draw hands with a bunch of blue cards, a forest, a wasteland, and a horizon canopy. This also came up in testing enough to annoy me. In general, I didn't feel like having basics helped me all that much against fast decks with Wasteland. They would just wasteland my Tundra or Tropical Island and I would wish that instead of a forest I had another dual land out. Also, I'm playing 4 stifles, so I'm a little less concerned about Wasteland now.

Stifle: Another card that I have been hot and cold with. It's the worst card in the deck against merfolk. However, it's pretty good against slow control decks when you're just trying to deny their mana and get a big green monster out. Because I'm not playing any basic lands and I've made my mana base a huge target for Wastelands, Stifle can offer some protection here.

Spell Snare: Four spell snares might be overkill, but it's very good against Merfolk if you've managed to counter their Aether Vial. Countering a Silvergill Adept, a Lord Of Atlantis, or a Coralhelm Commander is huge. Also, it seems to me that all of the best cards in the format cost 2 mana and people are gravitating towards playing more 2 drops to avoid mental misstep. Counterbalance, tarmogoyf, dark confidant, hymn to tourach, standstill, etc. I might go down to 3 spell snares but I think it pairs quite well with Mental Misstep at countering the best cards in the format.

Spell Pierce: I'm worried about my opponent resolving a Jace. They absolutely can not resolve a Jace or I'm dead. Spell pierce should help a little at stopping a Jace. It also might hit an Aether Vial if I'm on the play, but that's probably a little too optimistic. It's a semi-dead card against Merfolk, but it's good against U/W standstill. Plus it might be good against counterbalance, hymn to tourach, and any random combo decks we encounter. I usually see this card in the sideboard of New Horizons, but it might just work in the maindeck.

Terravore: I don't think that 8 creatures will give our deck enough threats. Terravore is really good at racing since he's basically unblockable. If you get this guy out with an active Knight Of The Reliquary it's almost certainly game over for any aggro deck. Still, he can be difficult to cast at times and you want to draw him in the mid game after you've got a Knight out, so 2 should be enough.


Now, some notes about cards that you would expect to see here but are missing:

Daze: I like Daze a lot, just not in a deck where our best cards cost 3 mana and we want to get them out as quickly as possible. I also feel that Daze is less necessary in this deck now that we have access to Mental Misstep. I found that when playing against Merfolk I would have to Daze a spell to slow them down, but in reality I was really slowing down myself when I returned an island to my hand. They would just play another threat on their next turn and Wasteland me. At this point I would be too far behind to ever mount a comeback.

Engineered Explosives: I don't really like this card. I think it's very slow and hard to cast for a profit. Against Merfolk I would always want to drop it for 2, which would generally kill one or more of my Tarmogoyfs. It would also tie up 4 mana over the course of two turns, unless I was lucky enough to have 4 lands out and not get Dazed. That rarely was the case though. It just didn't seem worth it. Also, Engineered Explosives is really bad when you're playing against control and combo decks. Maybe you could play it against Counterbalance and blow it up for 2, but against Counterbalance you really want to end the game as quickly as possible and Engineered Explosives is more of a defensive card. I just don't see this card being good in any matchups, except maybe for Dredge if you can manage to draw it and set it at 0 and blow up a bunch of zombie tokens. Still, that's probably not going to happen.

Ponder: I like the fact that Ponder can pump our Tarmogoyfs up, but it usually ended up tying up my blue mana in the early turns when I would have rather left it open to spell snare/mental misstep/spell pierce/stifle something. I don't think it's worth taking up valuable slots in our deck just to give our Tarmogoyfs +1/+1. I don't feel like there's much need to dig through our deck for spells either. I think brainstorm already provides a sufficient amount of card selection for the deck.


Well, that's my thoughts on New Horizons. Hopefully I'll play it at the Grand Prix. I'm going to play in a couple of trials on Friday and see how the deck does.. if things don't go well I'll have Merfolk sleeved up in my deckbox as plan B.

[sporenfrosch1411]

I like your list, and your explanations mostly are well thought in my opinion
BUT
I don't think you can completely cut out Ponder. As u stated correctly, solely for pumping Tarmogoyf - it's not worth the deal. But u absolutely need to be able to dig for a finisher, since you only have 10. I would never miss the 2 extra ponders (above the Brainstorms) at least just for that reason. There is hardly anything worse than having control over your opponent but not beeing able to finish. Im not sure if you can achieve that solely by 4 Brainstorm + Shuffling.

Anyway, really nice post, thanks for sharing your thoughts!

[Hucastor]

In defense of Stifle, it might not be helpful in the Merfolk match-up, but it does seem to help against Jace sometimes. Stopping an unsummon on a Terravore or a Knight and thus allowing us to attack him is quite nice.

[campee34]

What changes would you make to squeeze ponder in? How many ponders would you play? I'm thinking that the spell pierces are the likely candidate for getting cut, and maybe the 4th spell snare.

[sporenfrosch1411]

I would cut one Spell Snare and one Spell Pierce and add 2 Ponder in these slots. Depending on your meta i would switch the 3's and 2's then (2 Pierce+3 Snare OR 3 Pierce+2 Snare).
Or you could cut a fetchland, i think 22 Lands should be enough.

By the way:
Can someone explain to me, why the deck has a basic Forest instead of an Island in almost ANY list?
Stompy: Since there are 3 Blue Elemental Blast in the sideboard, i would rather have an island instead of waiting for Grip.
Goblins: Pretty much the same, again the Blast is the thing i prefer over anything else and allways want to be able to cast.
Do i miss something?

[campee34]

I would cut one Spell Snare and one Spell Pierce and add 2 Ponder in these slots. Depending on your meta i would switch the 3's and 2's then (2 Pierce+3 Snare OR 3 Pierce+2 Snare).
Or you could cut a fetchland, i think 22 Lands should be enough.

By the way:
Can someone explain to me, why the deck has a basic Forest instead of an Island in almost ANY list?
Stompy: Since there are 3 Blue Elemental Blast in the sideboard, i would rather have an island instead of waiting for Grip.
Goblins: Pretty much the same, again the Blast is the thing i prefer over anything else and allways want to be able to cast.
Do i miss something?

Re: forest. Against fast aggro decks with wasteland you need to get your green creatures out as fast as possible to survive. You need to be able to cast multiple creatures and need a reliable source of green mana to do that. I think it's less important now with mental misstep since it will result in aggro decks being able to play less "free" creatures off lackey/vial. They'll need their mana from wasteland more than they did in the past. Playing an Island makes casting Terravore and Knight Of The Reliquary more difficult. If you have an Island, a dual land, and a Wasteland as your only lands you can't play a Knight or a Terravore.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Played a small tourney today with this list:

//Main (60)
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Terravore

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Stifle
3 Ponder
3 Spell Snare
2 Repeal

//Sideboard (15)
//1 Bojuka Bog
//2 Path to Exile
//2 Krosan Grip
//3 Blue Elemental Blast
//2 Rhox War Monk
//3 Tormod's Crypt
//2 Spell Pierce


The deck performed very well (3-1, making third place), allthough i will cut the "Repeal-Experiment" again - it's not worth it.

Current thoughts for filling those slots:
2 Vendilion Clique - nice beatstick, nice tricks (maybe also add a Karakas then)
2 Spell Pierce - not sure, i feel like there is enough counters at the moment
2 spot-removal - but which? Path to exile is not good for the manadenial plan .....
2 Explosives - i dont like them, they are way to expensive to connect

Your thoughts ?


PS: Mental Misstep is the bomb. It allows to go on a crazy tempo.

[CaBaaL]

anyone tried beast with in or dissmemer?

Proper capitalization, spelling, and grammar are required when posting on these boards. Please use them in the future to avoid an infraction. Thanks. -zilla

[sporenfrosch1411]

Beast Within @ cc3 is way to expensive i think.
Dismember is not really needed, why would u play it ?

[CaBaaL]

Beast Within @ cc3 is way to expensive i think.
Dismember is not really needed, why would u play it ?

cause its a removal in 3 mana so its imune to misstep and spel snare.

Please use proper grammar, punctuation, capitalization, and sentence structure. Also, spell your words correctly.
-4eak

[sporenfrosch1411]

But i see 2 obvious drawbacks:
- Casting cost 3 is a lot. The 3-Slot is allready filled by 6 pieces (4 Knight and 2 Terravore in my list). The tempo plan suffers, if there are more "high" casting cost spells like this one
- Your opponent gets a 3/3 Beast. Sure, at first you might say "Well, all our creatures are bigger than 3/3" but in reality, it is an extra turn for your opponent at best. He can block a turn, because u absolutely dont want to target a removal on that Beast you gave him. And in worst case, he can deal massive damage to you.

I like the idea of having an instant speed Vindicate, but i would much rather have something at lower cost. I am unsure, if Beast within really fits here, allthough i see the cruelty it can provide by destroying a land.
In theory you could go Stifle, Wasteland, Beast on your opponents Manabase, which is amazing.

[CaBaaL]

Can someone tell me why new horrizons does not show up in top8 anymore? What is missing? It has the same base as team america (trade 1-1, tempo) but it misses card advantage: dark confidant, hymn (1 for 2).
On the other hand we have the best removal (sword) and the biggest creature (knight) that can lead to card advantage (deck thining and draw cards with horizzon canopy, or stomp on blockers).


the list I try now is:

4 stifle
4 mental misstep
4 fow
3 daze
4 swords
3 ponder
4 brainstorm
3 spel snare

4 goyf
4 knight
2 jace TMS

22 lands (trying to fit more basics)

3 tundra
3 tropical island
3 horrizon canopy
1 island (it was a 4th canopy maybe I will switch it back)
1 karakas
4 wasteland
7 fetch lands

SB
2 v. clique
3 submerge
3 spell pierce (maybe I will remove one)
3 surgical extraction
2 krosan grip
2 missdirection // divert (not sure yet)

I spend my 1st turns trade 1-1 and drop a knight/jace to get the upper hand. I tried terravore but i hate when I drop him and he is 3/3-4/4 or even smaller.
Jace fills the role of the "card advantage" (brainstorm +1 card and filter the same time) that is missing in the deck.
My SB is meta-based (lot of team america, zoo, junk and random combo (alluren, painter,eldrazi..))
All suggestions are wellcome
Sorry for my bad english its not my 1st language.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Tombstalker is often as good as Knight, just because he flies and starts out as a 5/5.
Hymn to Tourach, backed up by Mental Misstep and Force of Will, can break games, which is one of the main advantages in my opinion. And btw, doesn't TA just have more removal than NH does ;)

[CaBaaL]

Tombstalker is often as good as Knight, just because he flies and starts out as a 5/5.
Hymn to Tourach, backed up by Mental Misstep and Force of Will, can break games, which is one of the main advantages in my opinion. And btw, doesn't TA just have more removal than NH does ;)

agree, If knight had any evation ability or trample it could be a lot different. I do not compare the 2 decks I just wonder why New horrizons does not show up in top8 any more, and TA, a deck with many similarites, does.
The lack of str8 card advantage (standstill) or dissadvantage (hymn) means so much? If so maybe add more spell snares?
As for removals I want to add more removals but i have no options in bant colors, (only playble are: beast within (3 mana and you give him a beater) and path to exile (sucks with mana denial plan, only good vs decks that have 0 basics.)) So we have to look other colors but without splashing any lands in. Any ideas? Dismember maybe?

[beebles]

agree, If knight had any evation ability or trample it could be a lot different. I do not compare the 2 decks I just wonder why New horrizons does not show up in top8 any more, and TA, a deck with many similarites, does.
The lack of str8 card advantage (standstill) or dissadvantage (hymn) means so much? If so maybe add more spell snares?


If you want card advantage, I think the meta might be right to start tinkering with Cold Eyed Selkie preferably aided by noble hierarch. All the top tier decks run islands at the moment.

[Koby]

Elspeth might be a good way to break the stalemates up. Also, EE allows you to control the board better than UBg tempo decks. Lastly, Vendilion Clique maindeck would be worth it, since you can find Karakas to break apart the control matchups.

[sporenfrosch1411]

I dont think the Selkie fits in here. Selkie is a wonderful Tech in Bant with Stoneforge Mystic and Exalted triggers, but New Horizons..... it would almost allways be a 1/1 for cc3. That is not worth it in my opinion.
If you want more beaters, go for Vendilion Clique....
Card Advantage is rarely possible here.

[five]

Just thought I'd bump this thread and share some of my recent results with this deck. I played it with some success last year, but eventually put it away because I was disgusted by its Goblin's match up :tongue:. I figured Mental Misstep should help that match up some (plus no one has been playing Gobbos lately), as well as others. Here is my current build:

Artifacts
2 Engineered Explosives

Creatures
4 Knight Of The Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Terravore
1 Vendillion Clique

Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Mental Misstep
4 Force Of Will
4 Stifle
4 Swords To Plowshares

Sorceries
3 Ponder

Plainswalkers
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


Lands
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas

Sideboard:
2 Crucible Of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Mental Misstep
2 Llawan Cephalid Empress
3 Pithing Needle

I am 9-1 since picking this deck back up, beating 3 budget decks, Dredge, Aggro Loam, Affinity, TES, Merfolk, and Zoo, and losing to the same TES player. I am obviously happy with the results, but also see some problems with the deck. Jace decks are a huge problem since they can easliy isolate and deal with the threats. I run a miser Jace and 3 Needles to help, but I doubt that is enough. Fast aggro decks are also scary, but I have them handled well so far. Combo seems pretty favorable, but that shoud be no surprise.

Anyway, I have thought about removing the Stifles to make the deck more like Bant Aggro. I was thinking -4 Stifle, -2 Explosives, and -1 Terravore for +2 Stoneforge Mystic, +1 Jittte, +1 SoFI (or Batterskull), +1 Vendillion Clique, +1 Ponder, and +1 Mental Misstep. The thinking is that I would improve the control and aggro match ups without sacrificing the number of blue cards needed for Force. It should still have a decent combo match up, although losing Stifle hurts a bit. Ditching Stifle also weakens the match up against other Wasteland decks, which is worth noting. I have gotten great value from the MB EE's, but I don't know what else to cut while keeping the blue count high. Long story short, I indend on rocking this build a while longer, but would appreciate any insight you guys may have. Thanks!

[Guevera59]

I finished 3rd at the SCG Open in Richmond this weekend. Here is my list:

4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Knight of the Reliquary

4x Brainstorm
4x Mental Misstep
4x Force of Will
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Daze

3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Body and Mind

4x Windswept Heath
4x Flooded Strand
3x Tropical Island
2x Savannah
2x Tundra
4x Wasteland
3x Horizon Canopy
1x Karakas

Sideboard:
2x Submerge
1x Path to Exile
3x Spell Pierce
3x Vendilion Clique
2x Krosan Grip
2x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1x Maze of Ith
1x Bojuka Bog

Round 1: Junk 2-1
Round 2: Zoo 0-2
Round 3: Zoo 2-0
Round 4: Merfolk 2-0
Round 5: Hive Mind 2-0
Round 6: Stax 2-0
Round 7: UW Stoneblade 2-0
Round 8: Merfolk 2-1

Quarters: Junk Depths 2-1
Semis: Show and Tell/Through the Breach 1-2

At first glance, the deck appears to be quite different from traditional New Horizons builds. However, the fundamental strategy of the deck is similar: disrupt early, and then outclass their board with your threats. Stoneforge Mystic is essential in turning around the problematic Merfolk matchup while also providing a method to break stalemates in the mid-to-late game. Jace should be self explanatory, it shines against other decks with Jaces and Knights.

The deck performed very well, the only obvious changes being cutting a Savannah for a 3rd Tundra and a move from Sword of Body and Mind to a Sword of Feast and Famine. Pro black is less relevant than pro blue, but Feast and Famine's abilities are so much better.

[Koby]

I played your deck last night in a MTGO Daily Event. Went 4-0.

I can agree with the SoFF swap - SoBM is so underwhelming...
I would recommend also 1x Life from the Loam in the sideboard against control. It would be so useful!

[Guevera59]

I played your deck last night in a MTGO Daily Event. Went 4-0.

I can agree with the SoFF swap - SoBM is so underwhelming...
I would recommend also 1x Life from the Loam in the sideboard against control. It would be so useful!

I agree that Loam would be good in the board, but the problem is finding a slot for it. Cutting Llawan in general for maybe a second Path to Exile and a Loam may be correct. Merfolk may be a fine enough matchup without the Cephalid Empress.

[bambamSPLAT]

Hey Guevera, I gotta say, I'm extremely interested in your decklist. I've been toying around with a similar idea that excludes GSZ and includes 4x SFMs, Goyfs, & FOWs.

First of all, do you think 4 SFMs is a must? I imagine with 4 Goyfs and 4 SFMS you have plent of options for 2 mana. My question is, could we get away with 3 SFMS or is getting Batterskull out asap a priority?

Secondly, what are your thoughts on Scavenging Ooze? I'm considering 2Goyf/2Ooze.

Lastly, why not run a couple Cliques mainboard?

As I said I'm very intrigued by this build and would love to further discuss and refine it.

[Guevera59]

Hey Guevera, I gotta say, I'm extremely interested in your decklist. I've been toying around with a similar idea that excludes GSZ and includes 4x SFMs, Goyfs, & FOWs.

First of all, do you think 4 SFMs is a must? I imagine with 4 Goyfs and 4 SFMS you have plent of options for 2 mana. My question is, could we get away with 3 SFMS or is getting Batterskull out asap a priority?

Secondly, what are your thoughts on Scavenging Ooze? I'm considering 2Goyf/2Ooze.

Lastly, why not run a couple Cliques mainboard?

As I said I'm very intrigued by this build and would love to further discuss and refine it.

I think this deck really wants Stoneforge Mystic into Batterskull as a reliable method to beat Merfolk. To execute that plan, you want 4 Mystics because a) simply, the more you have the greater the chances of drawing and resolving one and b) against non-Merfolk decks where you get Batterskull, opponents will often focus on removing Stoneforge before you vial the equipment into play. As such, it is often beneficial to have a second Stoneforge to get the Batterskull into play. Furthermore, you can usually shuffle away excess Mystics with Jace/Brainstorm if necessary.

Ooze seems good in a build with Green Sun's Zenith where you are able to find it in specific situations where it would be stronger than a Goyf. However, in general, Tarmogoyf is just a more reliable option most of the time and doesn't require a heavy mana requirement that Ooze does.

Clique is certainly a strong card, but it is worse than the other threats in the deck against Zoo and Merfolk, two of the most popular decks. Often, I would board out the Stoenforge Mystic package against control and combo decks for Vendilion Cliques and Spell Pierces.

[bambamSPLAT]

I see. What about Daze? Without Noble Hierarchs or Dryad Arbor to ramp into, can we do without Daze? It seems without the mana ramp, Daze is not as good as a tempo card. I say this however, but have not found an effective counterspell to take its place.

About the land base:
4 Wastelands
3 Canopys
0 Basics

It appears to me that while serving other purposes, this also acts to build KotR quickly, but have you been having any mana problems? Especially to mana denial decks or Back to Basics?

Any weaknesses you noticed? Bad match-ups?

I appreciate you taking the time to answer any questions and look foward to hearing more on this build. Thanks

[Guevera59]

I see. What about Daze? Without Noble Hierarchs or Dryad Arbor to ramp into, can we do without Daze? It seems without the mana ramp, Daze is not as good as a tempo card. I say this however, but have not found an effective counterspell to take its place.

About the land base:
4 Wastelands
3 Canopys
0 Basics

It appears to me that while serving other purposes, this also acts to build KotR quickly, but have you been having any mana problems? Especially to mana denial decks or Back to Basics?

Any weaknesses you noticed? Bad match-ups?

I appreciate you taking the time to answer any questions and look foward to hearing more on this build. Thanks

Daze is, admittedly, a hit-or-miss card. It can be pretty bad on the draw and is almost always sided out when you are on the draw game 2 or 3. On the play, it can be a complete blow out, but it is important to know when to play it. Profitably casting Daze when you already have a threat in play is always good and often amazing. Daze is being played much less in general right now, so people are playing around it considerably less. It's also the nuts against Hivemind, which happens to be a pretty awesome matchup, especially post-board.

Horizon Canopy is the best card against mana denial. I play 23 lands, which is a high number, and Horizon Canopy facilitates this. Against mana denial, such a high land count often allows you to draw out of the difficulty. Against decks without mana denial, Canopy keeps you from being flooded, converting excess lands into another card. Back to Basics is a problem, and so is Blood Moon (my one loss in the Swiss was against a Zoo deck that boarded in Blood Moon), but I think that both of those cards will result in me losing many fewer games than playing basics would. What basic would the deck play? Old New Horizons lists played Forest due to Terravore, and I know Dave Price even cut that eventually. I really can't think of situations where I would want to fetch a basic land unless I knew they had a Blood Moon or Back to Basics, and those situations are few and far between.

The best thing about this deck is that most of the matchups are just above or below even. The aforementioned cards are problems, as well as a dedicated control deck, something like the one PV played at the Grand Prix. Loam out of the board would certainly help against those decks, however. An opposing Jace is often GG, but you have a lot of ways to stop that from happening, including three of your own and Cliques post-board.

Glad to help.

[sigfig8]

Daze is, admittedly, a hit-or-miss card. It can be pretty bad on the draw and is almost always sided out when you are on the draw game 2 or 3. On the play, it can be a complete blow out, but it is important to know when to play it. Profitably casting Daze when you already have a threat in play is always good and often amazing. Daze is being played much less in general right now, so people are playing around it considerably less. It's also the nuts against Hivemind, which happens to be a pretty awesome matchup, especially post-board.

Horizon Canopy is the best card against mana denial. I play 23 lands, which is a high number, and Horizon Canopy facilitates this. Against mana denial, such a high land count often allows you to draw out of the difficulty. Against decks without mana denial, Canopy keeps you from being flooded, converting excess lands into another card. Back to Basics is a problem, and so is Blood Moon (my one loss in the Swiss was against a Zoo deck that boarded in Blood Moon), but I think that both of those cards will result in me losing many fewer games than playing basics would. What basic would the deck play? Old New Horizons lists played Forest due to Terravore, and I know Dave Price even cut that eventually. I really can't think of situations where I would want to fetch a basic land unless I knew they had a Blood Moon or Back to Basics, and those situations are few and far between.

The best thing about this deck is that most of the matchups are just above or below even. The aforementioned cards are problems, as well as a dedicated control deck, something like the one PV played at the Grand Prix. Loam out of the board would certainly help against those decks, however. An opposing Jace is often GG, but you have a lot of ways to stop that from happening, including three of your own and Cliques post-board.

Glad to help.

Wow, a very thorough and well put response. Thanks for all the perspective. I've got a couple more questions/thoughts if you don't mind!

I played 23 lands as well, while I was still running Karakas. Recently, I switched out the Karakas for a Maze of Ith. I love the interaction with Knight, not to mention the defensive advantages. But since the Maze doesn't tap for mana, I've been inclined to add a 24th land. What do you think?

Also, I've noticed that Stifles are dropping from many people's lists. My experiences with Stifle have been mostly positive. It's even valuable in the Goblins matchup, where I've managed to stifle a Goblin Ringleader. Do you know why people are cutting Stifles so readily?

Finally, Daze AND Mental Misstep? Isn't that a lot of counters? I've cut the dazes altogether for the Missteps, but I'm wondering if a 2/2 split is best?

Thanks for your thoughts!

[bambamSPLAT]

Like sigfig, thanks for sharing your perspective. I believe many of us find the input to be beneficial and appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts.

I'm really digging the multiple Canopys, but are the 4x Wastelands necessary? I typically run 3x, however, with all the Stoneblades running around, perhaps a 4th Wasteland may just be a good idea.

Loam in the SB seems like a great idea. Also, have you considered a substitute weapon in the SB to help vs different match-ups? I feel that if we are taking out the Llawans, maybe 1x SoFaI or Jitte would be very helpful vs Merfolk and other matchups.

A third Tundra... interesting.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I'm really digging the multiple Canopys, but are the 4x Wastelands necessary? I typically run 3x, however, with all the Stoneblades running around, perhaps a 4th Wasteland may just be a good idea.

Loam in the SB seems like a great idea. Also, have you considered a substitute weapon in the SB to help vs different match-ups? I feel that if we are taking out the Llawans, maybe 1x SoFaI or Jitte would be very helpful vs Merfolk and other matchups.

A third Tundra... interesting.

This deck looks interesting. I've been thinking about putting it together for a long time, just never got around to getting Horizon Canopies. I'll chime in with my experience from some similar decks (Team America, Canadian Thresh, etc.) about these points.

Wasteland: This is a disruptive tempo deck. We need 4 Wastelands, no exceptions.

Loam: This is an awesome idea against Landstill and company, I'm going to try it out.

Tundra: Better than Savannah. We want as few lands that don't produce blue as possible.

Now to go get some Horizon Canopies and a Batterskull...

[Guevera59]

@sigfig: Whenever I boarded in Maze of Ith, which was often enough to consider maindecking it, i boarded out a spell not a land. I would play a 24th land if I were to maindeck it.

Stifle has lost a lot of value with the printing of Mental Misstep. Not only do people have an easy answer for opposing Stifles, but Mental Misstep fullfills much of Stifle roll, impeding the first turn of your opponent. The difference is that Misstep also counters 1 drops on the draw and protects your threats from Swords/Path. I would never play less then 4 Missteps in this deck.

@bambamSPLAT: This deck isn't necessarily a tempo deck but it can certainly take the tempo route to victory, and 4 Wastelands go a long way in doing that. Once you stick a Knight, chaining Wastelands is amazing, and you need to have 4 Wastelands to consistently beat decks like NORUG.

I think I would rather have more Paths in the board to hedge against Merfolk and Zoo, I tested SoFI for awhile and its amazing against Merfolk, so if you want to hose the deck that's a good way to go.

[Koby]

I would even consider Manriki-Gusari in the sideboard against decks that pack SFM/equipment. This gives us repeatable and tutorable answers to the mirror or Stoneblade. At worst, it makes your SFM a 2/4, and allows your Goyfs to win Goyf-wars. At best, it's a 3-for-1 against Jitte/SoXY/Batterskull.

Maze of Ith usually covers that scenario, so it could be a nice alternative.

I would 100% play with some Submerge in the sideboard in my metagame. Submerge is so much fun :)

[wcm8]

I'm curious about the single ponder. Is it just servicing as bstorm #5? Personally, I think Sylvan Library would be a better option for this slot. I played the deck at a small local event with this change last night and went undefeated. Every game I landed Library I was happy to have it, and with a batterskull out you can be aggressive about keeping the cards.

[bambamSPLAT]

@Admiral_Arzar: Thanks for adding to this discussion and what you're saying seems spot on. What are your thoughts on running Stifle either MB or SB in this list? As sigfig has brought up, this seems like it could be a great fit and can really enhance the tempo route of this deck, should we choose to go in that direction.

I'm thinking:
-3 Daze MB, +3 Stifle MB or -3 Spell Pierce SB, +3 Stifle SB

I love Daze as a tempo card, but without Hierarchs, Stifles may be better at gaining us tempo, not to mention they offer a lot of flexibility (Pridemage, Pernicous Deed, Vial, opposing Wastelands, Sylvan Library, SFM, Jace, Vampire mage, and of course Hivemind)

@sigfig: I have to agree with Guervera as far as the Missteps go. I've tried all the various counts, but after a lot of testing, I have to say that 4th Misstep is crucial. The times I regret having a Misstep in my hand are far less than the times I regret not having one.

@Guervera:
Also, how do you feel about the 8 Fetches to 7 Fetchable lands? Could we reduce the number of fetches to a 7Fetch/7Fetchable land split and add maybe another Canopy or Maze of ith?

Would love to hear everyone's thoughts on this as I believe Guervera's build in the current meta shows a lot of promise and may be the most efficient in executing our game plan.

[Admiral_Arzar]

@Admiral_Arzar: Thanks for adding to this discussion and what you're saying seems spot on. What are your thoughts on running Stifle either MB or SB in this list? As sigfig has brought up, this seems like it could be a great fit and can really enhance the tempo route of this deck, should we choose to go in that direction.


This deck was originally designed as "Tempo Thresh with huge guys," or maybe "Bant Team America." I think Stifle is amazing, although somewhat less so because of Misstep. Without Hierarchs, we might as well play it to try and steal tempo. At worst, it gets misstepped and that misstep doesn't hit Brainstorm or STP. At best, we stunt their early mana development and functionally time-walk them. Stifle is also INSANE against Stoneforge Mystic, which is everywhere right now. It also helps protect our graveyard from relic/crypt/bukkake bog etc. if they try and shrink our dudes (although that's a rather corner case). Heck you can even Stifle Vendilion Clique's trigger if you so desire. I think testing will have to be done to see how viable it really is, but it sounds pretty damn good on paper IMO.

EDIT: Here is a list I've been brainstorming based on what I've seen here. It's untested, but could serve as a starting point for discussion.

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Stifle
4 Mental Misstep
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of whatever and whatever

7-8 Fetches
4 Wasteland
2-3 Canopy
6-8 fetchable lands (duals, maybe basics if we can work them in)

One concern of this list is it might be a little top-heavy on threats (12 dudes + 2 Jace is a LOT) and perhaps could use more cantrips or countermagic. Also, Daze isn't particularly synergistic with hitting 4 mana for JTMS. I do like Mystic instead of Terravore, it makes us less vulnerable to yard hate and Perish (the bane of this deck originally) and also shores up problematic aggro matchups with Batterskull.

[sigfig8]

I'm still amazed at the number of counterspells everyone runs now. Before Mental Misstep, the deck ran 4 dazes and 4 Force of Wills, with the occasional spell pierce. To run 4x FoW, 4xMisstep, and 3-4x Daze seems like a lot of counter-magic, doesn't it? I understand 4x Misstep is necessary; I'm more questioning the dazes.

Also, I see ponders are getting cut more frequently too, now. Are ponders unnecessary? They seem like they'd be prime prospects to be cut out to make room for the SFM package, but they do help with awkward hands and they're strong late-game. Interesting in hearing how people feel about ponder vs. no ponder.

[bambamSPLAT]

@Admiral_Arzar: I definitely like the looks of your list and am currently working on something similar as well. As you said, I too feel that we can reduce our number of threats. My question is, where do we take from? I feel the most obvious spot would be from our 2 drop. However, can we afford to lose a Goyf or Mystic or even one of each?

@wcm8: I personally have not tried Manriki-Gusari, but I like the idea of running x1 in the SB as I could free up a slot by taking out 2x Krosan Grips.

Any suggestions on the sideboard?

1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x SoFaI
1x Manriki-Gusari
2x Submerge
1x Path to Exile
3x Vendilion Clique
1x Life from the Loam
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Maze of Ith
1x *either another Submerge, Jace, or ...?

Sidebar: Anyone have any experience with Tower of the Magistrate?

[Hanni]

I know that SFM is the new fad right now, but I'm not sure it's something every deck wants.

I'm sure that some form of U/W/g SFM Aggro/Control Bant is a really good deck, but it feels like it's no longer New Horizons. Excalibur is probably the deck I'd look to for a build like that.

New Horizons was, and should essentially still be, a "tempo" deck. I use the term tempo loosely, since I don't mean it literally, but rather use the term as the classification for which decks like Team America and Canadian Threshold are built upon. Basically, the fundamental gameplan is a deck that relentlessly disrupts its opponent's early game as much as possible, through the use of Stifle/Waste and a boatload of efficient countermagic. Once the opponent's gameplan is basically halted, the deck then drops a fatty (or fatties) to win the game before the opponent can recover. If you notice, the shell of both Team America and Tempo Thresh are very similar, and I remember a time when New Horizons was also very similar.

I'm not saying the SFM builds aren't good, I'm simply saying they just don't seem like New Horizons. There's a million and one different Bant variations out there, from Mossivo's White Threshold, to hungrylikealion's Excalibur, to my Vial Bant, to Bant Aggro, to you name it. New Horizons, at least to me, was always the Tempo Thresh or Team America-style Bant list.

In a "tempo" deck like that, SFM is fairly slow. Investing 1W for the SFM, and an additional 1W a turn later for a 4/4, or even slower with Jitte/SoFF, seems to defeat the purpose. The deck disrupts, and then wants to drop a fatty and win before the opponent can recover. Tombstalker and KotR are ideal because they are relatively low in cc by the midgame when they come down (for their size), and can close a game out in several swings. SFM takes alot longer to set up. Maybe I'm just old fashioned, and completely out of the loop. If I'm wrong, I'm gladly willing to admit my ignorance.

Here's what I envision New Horizons to look like:

U/g/w New Horizons
Tempo Bant

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [R] Tropical Island
2 [R] Tundra
1 [R] Savannah
3 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [M10] Ponder
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 4 [DIS] Condemn
SB: 4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
SB: 2 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas

The deck very much feels like Canadian Thresh or Team America, with the white splash having pros and cons over the red and black splashes, respectively.

Condemn is my sideboard as my answer to Merfolk, coming in for Stifle's. They can also come in against Zoo, replacing Force of Will, depending on the Zoo build. However, I can see arguments for SFM -> Batterskull being a better SB option for Merfolk, although I'm not sure if SFM -> Equipment is the best answer for Zoo.

Anyway, that's just my opinion on the matter, and figured with all the recent traffic in this thread, I'd throw it out there. Carry on.

EDIT: Submerge probably deserves a spot in my sideboard somewhere.

[Guevera59]

Stifle doesn't necessarily seem bad in this iteration of New Horizons, it has long been a staple of the archetype, after all, but my biggest problem is that there isn't enough slots in the deck for the card. I think the most debatable slots are the 1 Ponder (which was admittedly filler, but it seemed generally good in every matchup whereas other cards that I considered in that slot like Maze of Ith, Life from the Loam, and a 3rd piece of equipment are only situationally good, Library sounds pretty awesome) and the three Dazes. Daze and Stifle are similarly situational, but I think Daze is at its most valuable on turns 2-5 where Stifle is at its best turn 1. Ideally you are playing a land on turn 1, and tapping out for threats on turns 2, 3, and 4. Dazing a spell after you play a threat is one of the best thing this deck can do. Unless you have a Stifle on turn one, you rarely have the mana available to cast the spell in a relevant or impactful way.

Manriki-Gusari is interesting, and a card that I will definitely test. My immediate reaction is that the only equipment I would care to destroy is pro-green equipment, because each of my threats trump or equal a Batterskull and I don't care about a Jitte, but it's still worth a try. It could help replace the Krosan Grips which are kind of klunky to begin with.

Let's say the maindeck Ponder becomes a Sylvan Library, I think I will try this sideboard at my weekly tourney on Wednesday:

3x Spell Pierce
3x Vendilion Clique
1x Maze of Ith
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Manriki-Gusari
2x Life from the Loam
2x Submerge
2x Path to Exile

[Hanni]

Stifle has more use than just hitting a fetchland on turn 1. That's definitely one of the strongest uses for the card, but that's not its limit. There are plenty of juicy targets for Stifle right now, and I do mean plenty.

SFM
Pact of Whatever
EE
Deed

Those are just a few of the many uses it has right now. To be honest, I think Stifle is as good in the format right now as it has ever been.

Also, as far as the "tempo" version goes, it doesn't always start dropping threat after threat on turn 2, 3, and 4. Usually, it plays the control role on turns 2 and 3, holding mana open for Spell Snare, Stifle, Brainstorm, etc. The goal is to 1-for-1 the opponent until the midgame, exhausting them out of relevant threats, leaving them with little to no board position. At which point, then the deck drops a threat, which is likely very large by this point, and closes the game out before the opponent can recover.

Wastelock via KotR is also very good, and I've won many games off the back of early Stifle/Waste followed by KotR's Crop Rotation for more Wastelands.

Also, Daze becomes significantly stronger with Stifle/Waste; Daze is often a hard counter going into the midgame. This deck is built to prey on greedy manabases. Especially with the general trend of decks slowing down and curving more and more towards the midrange, this plan seems really good right now.

[bambamSPLAT]

I know that SFM is the new fad right now, but I'm not sure it's something every deck wants.

I'm sure that some form of U/W/g SFM Aggro/Control Bant is a really good deck, but it feels like it's no longer New Horizons. Excalibur is probably the deck I'd look to for a build like that.

New Horizons was, and should essentially still be, a "tempo" deck. I use the term tempo loosely, since I don't mean it literally, but rather use the term as the classification for which decks like Team America and Canadian Threshold are built upon. Basically, the fundamental gameplan is a deck that relentlessly disrupts its opponent's early game as much as possible, through the use of Stifle/Waste and a boatload of efficient countermagic. Once the opponent's gameplan is basically halted, the deck then drops a fatty (or fatties) to win the game before the opponent can recover. If you notice, the shell of both Team America and Tempo Thresh are very similar, and I remember a time when New Horizons was also very similar.

I'm not saying the SFM builds aren't good, I'm simply saying they just don't seem like New Horizons. There's a million and one different Bant variations out there, from Mossivo's White Threshold, to hungrylikealion's Excalibur, to my Vial Bant, to Bant Aggro, to you name it. New Horizons, at least to me, was always the Tempo Thresh or Team America-style Bant list.

In a "tempo" deck like that, SFM is fairly slow. Investing 1W for the SFM, and an additional 1W a turn later for a 4/4, or even slower with Jitte/SoFF, seems to defeat the purpose. The deck disrupts, and then wants to drop a fatty and win before the opponent can recover. Tombstalker and KotR are ideal because they are relatively low in cc by the midgame when they come down (for their size), and can close a game out in several swings. SFM takes alot longer to set up. Maybe I'm just old fashioned, and completely out of the loop. If I'm wrong, I'm gladly willing to admit my ignorance.

@Hanni: I gotta say, I'm very glad you decided to chime on this discussion. Being that I am relatively new to the format, input like this is invaluable.

I must agree with you that SFM seems rather slow and from my limited experience is not a fast enough clock vs most combo and it is often difficult to resolve a Batterskull against Zoo. I admit, my experience is very limited so of course my opinion is somewhat skewed and would love to hear others' experiences regarding SFM. So far, SFM/Batterskull has only been game changing in my Fish match-ups, but I feel not as much since the inclusion of Dismember to most lists.

@Guevera: I really like that SB you posted and may try a similar one. Do you find that Bojuka Bog is sufficient graveyard hate? I have quite a few Reanimaters, Dredge, Loam, etc running around in my meta. Please let me know how Sylvan Library goes for you. I am currently running one, but in more of an aggro oriented Bant version.

Love the discussion going on and for a new player, such as myself, such input has been extremely beneficial.

[Koby]

Bog is more useful against Loam and KotR decks than it is against Reanimator. It's there as a "Panic" button.

[five]

My build doesn't run SFM yet, but I though I'd chime in since I have quite a bit of experiance with New Horizions. Ponder is helpful in many ways, such as avoiding mana flood/screw and boosting Goyf. Many of Stifles uses have already been pointed out, but I'd like to remind people that it is good against Wasteland, since we run no basics. Similar to KotR, Jace is a good follow up to some Stifled fetch lands. I am not sure how consistantly you can ultimate Jace by fatesealing away lands (mana is usually at least 1/3 of a deck), but it has worked for me a few times. I probably should have been using him to Brainstorm. Whatever.

Speaking of Jace, what match-ups do you guys side him out against (if any)? He seems kind of slow vs. fast aggro decks, right? I mostly have him to battle other Jaces since they tend to own KotR, but he has been awesome every time I have played him. Makes me never want to side him out, you know? I actually only have one Jace, but I would like at least one more for this deck.

[Hanni]

Bog is more useful against Loam and KotR decks than it is against Reanimator. It's there as a "Panic" button.

Bog is still good against Reanimator. I actually just 2-0'd Reanimator in dominating fashion on MWS with the build I posted, although that was due to me never letting him do anything moreso than Bog. I did get to close out game 2 with a KotR tutoring up a Bog in response to an Exhume, though. Wasn't really necessary, since I had a Spell Snare in hand to deal with his Exhume, and a StP to deal with his Blazing Archon had it come into play, but it was still a nice play.


Similar to KotR, Jace is a good follow up to some Stifled fetch lands. I am not sure how consistantly you can ultimate Jace by fatesealing away lands (mana is usually at least 1/3 of a deck), but it has worked for me a few times. I probably should have been using him to Brainstorm. Whatever.

My problem with Jace in this deck is that he costs 2UU. I run 4 Daze, 4 Wasteland, and 3 Horizon Canopy. I sometimes have trouble casting Knight of the Reliquary, and would assume Jace TMS would be difficult to cast in alot of games. I only run 20 lands, though, so that could be a reason why I don't reliably hit 2UU.

I think I'd rather board Jaces in against Control, rather than board them out against Aggro, due to Aggro being more popular. In a Control heavy meta, I can see the justification for maindecking Jace TMS.

However, not all builds are running Daze, and most lists are running more than 20 lands, so he may be a better fit in those builds.

[Koby]

I think there are enough tools within the Bant archetype to tweak the deck to work for specific metagames. I know as far back as January of this past year I was using the SFM package in the Sideboard to improve the Merfolk matchup. I don't think it's needed against metagames where Merfolk has disappeared however. The package is pretty atrocious against Combo and most control decks too, since it's both slow and mana intensive.

For large (100+) tournaments, you needs to be able to morph between different roles using the sideboard. I think the SFM package can be compressed down to 6 slots - 3 SFM and 3 equips, or 4/2 if you eschew playing any of the Sword of X/Y and want to absolutely see SFM as often as possible.

However, cutting the SFM package to the sideboard leaves a big gap in the deck in terms of threats. I think this is where the Vendilion Clique is good to swap with, which leaves 3 open slots for more disruption or cantrips.

Taking Guevera's build from the last page:
-4 SFM (to SB)
-2 Equips (to SB)
+3 Vendilion Clique (from SB)
+3 Stifle (new addition)

Makes the deck more tunes towards beating combo and "tempo" strategies. I say "tempo" in regards to high efficient spells/threats such as Junk and most of the Stoneblade category. This gives the deck a bit weaker Game 1 against unknown aggro players, but after sideboarding out most of the weak counterspells (like Force of Will, and several Dazes, and Clique) for SFM/Equips/PtE and sometimes Submerge. This sets up the deck for attrition wars in Games 2/3 where there is a better chance of out powering the aggro player with removal.

Being able to be fluid in the "packages" is going to be instrumental in playing the deck effectively.

[Hanni]

There's nothing wrong with playing SFM maindeck. My only concern is that the deck is no longer New Horizons. There are tons of ways to build Stoneblade. The U/W and U/W/r versions have been the most popular, but U/W/b is incredibly strong, and U/W/g is definitely viable.

Bant is an incredibly versatile color combination that can spawn a whole ton of various decks. In the past, we had oldschool Threshold (2006 era). That transformed into the first variations of CounterTop. Later we saw Natural Order Bant, Bant Aggro, and New Horizons. There's also Excalibur, Vial Bant, White Threshold, and Blue Maverick, among others.

My point is that adding SFM to the maindeck is no longer New Horizons.

Whether or not the SFM package belongs in the sideboard of New Horizons, I am not sure. I agree that being able to change roles for specific matchups can be incredibly good, but the SFM package takes up alot of space. What matchups for New Horizons would it improve? SFM/Batterskull improves the Merfolk matchup, and I'm sure SFM/Jitte is great against Goblins.

What other matchups does switching from a "tempo" deck into a Stoneblade deck improve? If it improves more matchups than the tempo gameplan does, then I'd say that New Horizons as an archetype is dead and that U/W/g Stoneblade would be its evolutionary replacement. However, I'm not convinced that this is the case.

I'm going to restate that I think the tempo gameplan is a strong option for the format right now. Manabases are still as greedy as ever, and Stifle is as good as its ever been right now. Mental Misstep has done alot to improve tempo strategies in general, giving them answers things that used to be problematic, like AEther Vial, Wild Nacatl, Swords to Plowshares, etc. U/W/g Stoneblade is obviously strong in the format right now, but I don't think New Horizons is going anywhere. The same goes for Team America, and to a lesser extent, Canadian Thresh.

As far as what matchups a SFM/Equipment sideboard would improve, anyone with experience with this package should share their thoughts. My initial impressions are an improvement to both Goblins and Merfolk.

EDIT:

I'm somewhat unconvinced that this deck would need SFM/Jitte vs Goblins. I just went a dominating 2-0 against R/g Goblins in playtesting. Albeit the deck would have a harder time against R/b, and an even harder time against Mono Red, I still think the matchup would be better playing the tempo role. The deck has 8 answers to Vial and Lackey on the draw, and 12 answers to both on the play, not counting Stifle's ability to hit a Lackey trigger. That's a large number of ways to slow them down.

Goblins is a mana hungry aggro deck, with a large concentration of 3cc guys, as well as 4cc and even 5cc. If they splash, Stifle/Waste is a killer, and even if they don't, Daze is still a hard counter very often. Stifle itself is a bomb in this matchup, countering everything from Gempalm's, to Matron and Ringleader triggers. It's fairly easy to just keep them off of any sort of tempo, basically keeping their board clear well into the midgame, while pounding them out with a large Goyf or KotR.

SFM/Jitte is incredibly slow, and this deck does not really want to get into a midgame battle with Goblins. I'm sure SFM/Jitte would not hurt the matchup whatsoever, but I think the tempo gameplan is alot more effective. However, the tempo gameplan may not work well enough against Mono Red Goblins; I haven't playtested that matchup yet. If so, then I could SFM/Jitte being good there. Doesn't seem like a common enough of a matchup to concern myself with, though.

[sigfig8]

@Hanni I was skeptical of adding the SFM package to New Horizons as well. And to be honest, I still haven't managed to make it to a tournament to try it out. But, I am definitely hesitant to take out stifles to play 4 SFM and 2-3 equipment. Stifles have always been MVPs for me...I've stifled Goblin Ringleader, Grim Lavamancer to buy a turn and win vs. Zoo, Maze of Ith vs. Lands, others' wastelands, etc. And with Hive Mind running rampant, Stifle seems like a silver bullet.

So to compromise, I added 3 SFM and 1 Batterskull. For now, that's it. To add these, I had to drop a ponder and the V. Cliques. But what I don't like is I have 4 MM and 0 Dazes, which may not be appropriate. I just wish this deck could run 65 cards!

[Amon Amarth]

I'm somewhat unconvinced that this deck would need SFM/Jitte vs Goblins. I just went a dominating 2-0 against R/g Goblins in playtesting. Albeit the deck would have a harder time against R/b, and an even harder time against Mono Red, I still think the matchup would be better playing the tempo role. The deck has 8 answers to Vial and Lackey on the draw, and 12 answers to both on the play, not counting Stifle's ability to hit a Lackey trigger. That's a large number of ways to slow them down.

Goblins is a mana hungry aggro deck, with a large concentration of 3cc guys, as well as 4cc and even 5cc. If they splash, Stifle/Waste is a killer, and even if they don't, Daze is still a hard counter very often. Stifle itself is a bomb in this matchup, countering everything from Gempalm's, to Matron and Ringleader triggers. It's fairly easy to just keep them off of any sort of tempo, basically keeping their board clear well into the midgame, while pounding them out with a large Goyf or KotR.

SFM/Jitte is incredibly slow, and this deck does not really want to get into a midgame battle with Goblins. I'm sure SFM/Jitte would not hurt the matchup whatsoever, but I think the tempo gameplan is alot more effective. However, the tempo gameplan may not work well enough against Mono Red Goblins; I haven't playtested that matchup yet. If so, then I could SFM/Jitte being good there. Doesn't seem like a common enough of a matchup to concern myself with, though.

Yeah, I wouldn't worry about a deck that isn't really played at all. IMHO Goblins is a legitimate deck but I think your time testing is best spent elsewhere.

What I find really amusing is how good Stifle is recently. Kind of the opposite of people that said it was terrible, unplayable, etc. I'm always surprised by how unpredictable Legacy is and how often people are wrong.

[Guevera59]

When discussing whether New Horizons with Stoneforge Mystic is actually New Horizons, it is important to consider what fundamentally makes New Horizons a unique deck. Dave Price described New Horizons in the opening post as a deck that is built around the card Horizon Canopy. Admittedly, the list he has in the opening post is quite different from the deck that most understand as New Horizons to be: no Stifle and playing Mox Diamond. The addition of Stifle played a large part into to truly making New Horizons a tempo deck. However, the characteristics of the deck that made New Horizons successful is its threats and mana base. Playing 22-23 lands in conjunction with Horizon Canopy gave the New Horizons player a distinct advantage over other tempo deck with 18-20 lands. New Horizons was less likely to be affected by opposing mana denial: the extra lands gave you the ability to draw out of it. Furthermore, the additional lands allowed the deck to play threats further up the curve, a la Knight of the Reliquary and Terravore. The genius of of the inclusion of the card Horizon Canopy allowed for there to be no downside in running these extra lands. If you were flooding out, you could simply turn your drawn Horizon Canopies into extra cards. Or, if you had a Knight in play, you could convert your surplus of lands into either land destruction (via Knight searching up Wasteland) or card advantage (Knight into Canopy). The threats of the deck synergized very well with the Horizon Canopy engine, and were able to quickly take over the game. It is THIS interaction that made New Horizons a very powerful deck. It would disrupt the early game, and then start sticking giant monsters that people can't deal with.

I am of the opinion that the New Horizons deck with Jace and Stoneforge Mystic is a logical evolution of this plan. When New Horizons first came to prominence, it boasted a favorable Merfolk matchup. This has changed. Merfolk is not an unwinnable matchup for traditional New Horizons decks, but it is very difficult. This change was caused by the printing of Corralhelm Commander. NH used to be able to sit back with creatures, keep LoA off the table, and then eventually produce a big enough dude that you can kill them in a couple of swings. Corralhelm Commander destroys this plan. He flies over your huge monsters and its able to end the game in a few turns. Furthermore, the printing of Mental Misstep makes it less likely that a Swords to Plowshares will take down Corralhelm.

Stoneforge Mystic more or less solves the Merfolk problem. There are certainly situations where Merfolk is able to race a Batterskull if they get a LoA or if Stonforge Mystic enters the game too late. However, Stoneforge Mystic into Batterskull dramatically improves the matchup. It may be true that Merfolk is underrepresented in some isolated metagames, but at any large tournament, if you want to win, you are going to have to go through the fish. Stoneforge Mystic goes a long way into allowing that to happen.

I see Jace 2.0 as a replacement for Terravore. Jace, like Terravore, is the last threat you want to play in a given game, and is capable of ending the match very quickly. The surplus of lands that NH provides makes casting Jace not that difficult, especially once you have a Knight in play.

In conclusion, I feel that it is not a Stifle/Daze package, but the the Horizon Canopy engine that defines New Horizons. As such, the deck I piloted to 3rd at the SCG Tournament in Richmond last week is just a logical evolution of New Horizons for the current metagame. I personally don't think that playing Stifle is what you want to be doing with this deck right now. Mental Misstep has significantly slowed down the format, making tempo strategies less reliable. Furthermore, Mental Misstep does much of what Stifle does, but without it being as conditional. On the draw, Stifle is generally horrible, even with the random opportunities to counter non-fetchland abilities. I think that Stoneforge and Jace are necessary cards in competing with the current meta game, and I look forward to furthering the discussion and development of this deck.

[sdematt]

Very interesting discussion the last few pages. I read this thread quite often, but never post.

I personally think right now, playing Stifle, even with all the Mental Missteps, is very good. I don't want to explain the obvious, but Stifling a key Wasteland, Jace, Fetchland, KotR, Bog, Hexmage, or more importantly, SFM, is really good. I mean, most Stoneblade decks usually go all-in on SFM on T2, because there's really no reason not to. Having the Stifle blowout either uses up a counterspell, or blows them out. Dont' get me wrong, I don't think you should always Stifle the T1 Fetchland all the time, but I think it should be used for more utility than just that. I know others will disagree, but at least in my meta, it's been very good.

Sylvan Library is also something I've really come to appreciate. It's an excellent card all around, and seems to be better than Top (doesn't get MM'd) since you dig for free, as well. I think it should be included.

Whether or not you play SFM main or board is a bit more tricky, but with all the NO RUG, combo, and Show and Tell based decks, I'd rather have Cliques main. SFM can come out of the board to rough up any Merfolk, Goblins, or other midrange decks that get in the way.

Overall, the lists seem really good. Keep it up! I'll try to post in here more often :P

-Matt

[bambamSPLAT]

Guevera: If possible, please share your results from today. I am extremely interested in how Manriki-Gusari does as opposed to the Krosan Grips.

[Q 221]

I'm sure something along these lines will pop up in every deck that plays blue and creatures, but I think Snapcaster Mage might do a lot to revitalize this deck, particularly in the list Hanni posted a page or so back.

- Tempo in general seems best suited to the card, since tempo strategies tend to play a lot of instants/sorceries, and fill up the graveyard rather quickly. This will ensure that Snapcaster has a relevant target to hit.

- Snapcaster into Swords seems like an insanely powerful play. Black and Red have decent removal, but Snapcaster into Bolt may not always be relevant, and Snapcaster into Hymn/Go for the Throat is a little less mana-friendly. A UW base may be the best place for the card

- Snapcaster into Stifle is an extremely situational play, but when it's relevant, it's really relevant. Given that mana bases haven't really gotten less greedy (and we've actually seen a bit of a reduction in the number of decks that run "safe" manabases like Merfolk and Goblins), I think a Stifle deck could do quite well in the developing metagame. I would expect Snapcaster to slot into a 3-color Fish list the easiest, and since those decks tend to run light on lands and highly dependent on color-fixing, a well-placed Stifle or two could cripple them.

- If the format gets to a point where Snapcaster defines it, I think Green is the best third color to be running, since Goyf and Knight provide the raw power that the UW base on its own is lacking.

- Stoneforge Mystic has become a huge part of the format. If Snapcaster follows it, Spell Snare seems like an even better card to be running.

My concern is where to slot it in, though. I doubt it's worth replacing any existing creature threats, since it's more of utility/card advantage than game-winning beats. Perhaps reducing the number of cantrips, cutting down Ponders and maybe slightly reducing the number of counters? Losing a sorcery for Goyf is somewhat painful, but I don't think cutting Brainstorm is a better option, and the counter base seems pretty well-balanced at the moment. Cutting Daze is a consideration, but Daze is practically a free hard counter in a deck with sufficient mana denial.

[Q 221]

I've given some thought to the idea of incorporating Snapcaster into NH, and I still think it's a pretty solid plan. I'm going to start trying to hack together a list.

I think the Stoneforge package works well here, since:
a. it shores up the Merfolk matchup, which could be problematic.
b. being able to fetch up equipment makes Snapcaster much more of a threat.


v1.0:

// Lands
1 Savannah
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy

// Creatures
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Stifle
1 Batterskull
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mental Misstep
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 4 Spell Pierce
SB: 4 Condemn
SB: 4 <empty slot>

This isn't anything particularly new, but it pushes together certain elements in ways I like. We've got the classic tempo package with Wastelands, Stifles, Daze, Misstep, Knights, and Goyfs, a Stoneforge package that can drop Batterskull to ruin aggro's day or load up on equipment, and Snapcaster comes in to recycle removal, Stifles, or the occasional counter/Brainstorm.

I cut Spell Snare because while every deck is using some two-drops, they often aren't particularly crucial. Stoneforge is the only one I really see being gamebreaking to counter, and Stifle can effectively stop a fast SFM into Batterskull the same way Snare can, unless they already have the Skull in hand. Goyf is a bit problematic I suppose, but we can probably expect to see more Swords per game with Snapcaster in the picture, we have Sword of Feast and Famine to push past it, and we do have Goyfs/Knights of our own.

I'm down to 3 SFMs because I only have 2 targets for it maindeck, and not much to do with excess ones. It might go up, but I like the number for now.

I haven't decided on Fire and Ice versus Feast and Famine versus just running Jitte. I'm testing Feast and Famine first because it has the most relevant protections, but I've got a soft spot for Fire and Ice. Although it doesn't have the best protection, the triggers seem really strong, particularly if other Snapcaster decks take off.

I'm unsure whether Daze will stay in the deck, it feels a little out of place at the moment. I included it because it seems like a strong choice in the format today, and because it fits well with the mana denial plan. Not exactly the best card to Snapcast, but I suppose there are circumstances where it could be beneficial.

The board probably seems pretty familiar, but I think it's reasonably good here. Spell Pierce is quite powerful these days with Jaces and Natural Orders everywhere (and it annoys the heck out of combo), Condemn manages anti-aggro without cutting out the mana denial plan. I considered Submerge since the Merfolk matchup is probably a little stronger with access to Batterskull, but I think Condemn has the edge since it can be Snapcast under normal circumstances. Karakas and Bog come with Knight and just smash certain strategies. I'm not sure what the last slots are going to be, I'm going to start with nothing in there for initial testing until I figure out what I really want help against.

[Derayler]

How much sweeter does this deck get? Can we go back to crushing people with Terravores and Knights?

[Bignasty197]

I plan on sleeving this deck up again for my next tourney. This will very likely be a good deck for a few months while everyone dusts off their combo decks and starts playing those again. I'm pretty sure Stifle/Waste will be an excellent strategy again.

[Koby]

Based upon changes in my metagame that include more combo and less aggro, I will be testing this variant in preparation of SCG Vegas.

Beatdown [12]:
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Vendilion Clique

Control [18]:
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2-3 Spell Snare/Pierce*
3 Sword to Plowshares

Card selection [8]:
4 Brainstorm
2-3 Ponder*
1-2 Green Sun's Zenith*
1 Sylvan Library

Mana [22]:
4 Wasteland
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Karakas

* 60th card to be determined through testing.

Sideboard (till working through some options)...
2 Jace TMS
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
2 Spell Pierce
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Life from the Loam

Again, the focus is aimed at defeating combo, then control. The aggro matchup is a bit spotty, and is relegated to the SB SFM package to shore up along with 3 more spot removal. Ideally, I would play EE as well (multipurpose good vs combo and dredge) and that may end up being added to the SB too.

IMO Jace is too slow for such a metagame, in that by the time he's active, you're way behind in aggro and combo, and against control you're likely using him to kill opponent's Jaces.

Any thoughts on other ways to improve the Combo/Control matchup?

[CaBaaL]

My build doesn't run SFM yet, but I though I'd chime in since I have quite a bit of experiance with New Horizions. Ponder is helpful in many ways, such as avoiding mana flood/screw and boosting Goyf. Many of Stifles uses have already been pointed out, but I'd like to remind people that it is good against Wasteland, since we run no basics. Similar to KotR, Jace is a good follow up to some Stifled fetch lands. I am not sure how consistantly you can ultimate Jace by fatesealing away lands (mana is usually at least 1/3 of a deck), but it has worked for me a few times. I probably should have been using him to Brainstorm. Whatever.

Speaking of Jace, what match-ups do you guys side him out against (if any)? He seems kind of slow vs. fast aggro decks, right? I mostly have him to battle other Jaces since they tend to own KotR, but he has been awesome every time I have played him. Makes me never want to side him out, you know? I actually only have one Jace, but I would like at least one more for this deck.

I used to play new horrizons before misstep (and tried with misstep too but failed cause misstep was stronger against me than them, also U/W has really solid manabase and tempo-strategy was not really good.)
From my experience I never won any games with jace (had 2 MD) that I was not allready winning anyway (had a huge-ass knight or a goyf on an empty board) so in the end I replaced jace with V. cliques (3 MD one more SB against combo) and never missed him.
maybe he is a meta call or something.

[Kamulium]

How do you guys feel about splashing red for sideboard Firespout and REB? I ran one Volcanic Island with zero red cards MD but had three Firespouts, REB and a Pyroblast in the SB. I faced two Elf-combodecks and lost to one when I didn't draw the Spouts and won the other single-handedly with the Spouts. I also used the Firespouts against decks like Junk and D&T and they were decent. The red blasts were OK too against heavier control and blue-based combo.
The splash doesn't hurt the manabase too much, but having the Volcanic Island in the opening hand without any red cards was a bit awkward when I played against decks with Wastelands. I wanted the splash because I expected aggro like Goblins, Fish and Zoo and I feel like the deck is pretty soft against those decks.

[metamet]

Mike Hawthorne took 34th this past weekend at SCG with New Horizons.

SCG Indy Tournament Report: The Newest Horizons (http://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/10/scg-indy-tournament-report-the-newest-horizons/)

Overall, I'd like to think that New Horizons could utilize Snapcaster... but Mike thinks it's a bit too slow and not worth running. Thoughts?

[Bignasty197]

I would rather use Vendilion Clique in that slot over Snapcaster. Flashing in a Clique at their draw step to take their threat after you blow up their lands is pretty awesome.

[CaBaaL]

I am thinking ways of adding mox diamonds, 1 taiga(or volcanic island) in order to have active firespout on SB and getting to 3 mana for snapcaster, v. clique and knight easier. Mox can be used for B for dismember too or for explosives. I know it is card disadvantage but with more tempo oriented stile of play I think it can work.. Any suggestions?

[CaBaaL]

after a lot of playtest vs agro decks (combo decks are favorable so I do not playtest against them that much) I found that snapcaster + sword to plow is too good to pass it. I gave up the idea of dissmember (2 on SB instead of paths that are against wastelands/stifles) and firespouts and focused on counters and card advantage (Jace TMS) and will playtest life from the loam too.

[BlueNevus]

Hi, former Maverick player switching decks due to losses to Belcher three weeks in a row. The masterpiece below is 74/75 of the T8 GP Amsterdam deck (Ooze instead of Goyf) with a different sideboard. What do you think?

4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Vendilion Clique
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze

4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Force of Will
3x Stifle
3x Daze

3x Jace, TMS

1x Forest
4x Tropical Island
2x Tundra
1x Savannah
4x Windswept Heath
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Wasteland
1x Karakas
1x Dryad Arbor


Sideboard

3x Engineered Explosives
2x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Life from the Loam
3x Flusterstorm



This deck has the best mana disruption package (Stifle, Wasteland, Daze, KOTR, +SB Loam) in Legacy, while being highly resistant to mana disruption itself (Noble, Stifle, KOTR, Loam.)

Jace is better in this deck than in any other. You play him the fastest, provide protection (KOTR, Clique), and have Zenith and Knight to shuffle after Jacestorms.

Zenith is the strongest tutor in Legacy, especially in Bant (Ooze, Pridemage, Teeg, KOTR, Arbor). It provides you with maindeck answers to artifacts, enchantments, and graveyard decks, in addition to ramping, dropping bombs, and crushing counterbalance decks. You can tinker with green sideboard creatures based on your metagame (Selkie, Edric, War Monk, Trygon Predator, Rafiq, etc.)

Like Jace, Clique is stronger here than elsewhere, with fetchable Karakas, ramp, and exalted.

Free counters let you tap out for your threats.

If you haven't noticed, this deck dodges Spell Snare almost completely, punishing all these Snapcaster decks that run 3/4 of them (You can Zenith for Pridemage/Ooze)

Stifle acts as mana disruption, wasteland protection, and combo hate, in addition to its fringe uses against almost every deck.

SIDEBOARD

I have never been more happy with a sideboard before. EE and Jitte are usually 2-1's (if not more) against troublesome aggro matchups. EE can blowout decks like few other cards, it's so underplayed.

With 2 Pridemage/4 Zenith & 3 EE, you don't need to run narrow 1 for 1's like Krosan Grip, which aren't enough against Affinity/Enchantress anyway. With Stifle, Clique, KOTR, and Pridemage, this deck could care less about an opposing Mystic/Batterskull, which is the strongest reason to run Grip.

Thrun and Elspeth are bombs to bring in against other Jace decks. Against RUG tempo, rather than trying to attack their manabase, I use stifle to protect my own in order to land a trump. Since RUG only needs 1/2 lands to function, trying to manascrew them before you land KOTR is risky and futile; nothing is worse than stunting your mana development to run your wasteland into a stifle.

2nd Ooze and Bog are tutorable GY hate. I don't think more GY hate is necessary. EE comes in against Dredge and Reanimator is dealt with on the stack and with Ooze/Karakas. Ooze + Bog is sufficient against everything else.

Teeg comes in against combo, obviously, and forces them to find permanent hate in addition to fighting through your blue.

Loam allows for Wasteland recursion against BUG/RUG/etc. It also works very well with Jace.

The only slots I'm debating are the 3 Flusterstorm. I understand that Pierce has more applications, but those matchups (Enchantress, CB, Lands, Jacedeck, Painted Stone) are won with other sideboard cards. I wanted to shore up the blue and combo matchups, and Flusterstorm is the nuts in those. It helps win the REB/Pyroblast wars against RUG, and is better than pierce against Reanimator, Hive Mind, Show + Tell, High Tide, etc. Flusterstorm is always better than Pierce if you're countering an instant or sorcery.

EXCLUSIONS

Horizon Canopy - Can't be used with Daze or sacrificed with KOTR, deals damage in difficult aggro matchups, and is an inferior draw engine to Jace. I'd rather fetch a Wasteland or attack with KOTR than find a Horizon Canopy.

Path to Exile - Negates the mana disruption plan. Ramping an opponent is almost never good in legacy.

Dismember - Most aggro decks would happily trade one of their creatures for a card and 4 damage.



Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[Beautiful-Decay]

I've never played Dark Horizons so I sadly can't reply with any good suggestions for your list BlueNevus, however I find your list so tempting to give a try I would like someone else to answar it quick please. It isn't a cheap deck and I would make some personal "tweaks" but I would still buy the core of the list, so any people who is familiar with Dark Horizons pls respond.

[wizard_of_gore]

@blue nevus

I like your list, and i will definetly give it a try. Deck looks more like a bant than "classic" new horizons, but who gives a fuck, it's the almost same decks and cards only with the different plan ;)

[kiblast]

Necro :D

List, and comments to follow.

Creatures:


4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Terravore

Spells:

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
2 Green Sun's Zenith

Lands:

4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
4 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Dryad Arbor

This deck is similar to New Horizon but maybe resembles more to an UGw Threshold build. It clearly has the skeleton of any tempo deck, but I dropped Horizon's clunky manabase for a more stable configuration. No fancy cards like Karakas or Canopy firstly because I always want to keep Daze active, and I didn't want to play KotR. I don't really like KotR right now (Decay) and I switched to shrouded guys: Mongoose and Geist. I sill kept in a Terravore because it's huge and seems a cool GSZ target. I'm playing 2 GSZ mainly to have access to 6 Mongoose, and to accellerate Geist through Dryad.
Snapcaster is awesome as we all know. I wish I had space for 4 Delvers, but Snapcaster adds a lot of redundancy to the deck so I think it should stay, abd I don't want to cut spells for Delvers as playing DeS with less than 25 spells is disgusting.

[Tammit67]

Does it even play like new horizons did? It doesnt look like it from here

[kiblast]

What do you mean? I didn't have the chance to play NH back then, but it was a mid range tempo deck which dumped a shitload of lands in the grave and was playing 9/9 Kotrs and 14/14 Terravores. I would play Kotr and Terravores if I could, but since BUG exists I can't really.
For what it is worth, I think my list plays fairly similarly to NH, minus KotR shenanigans and Planeswalkers (Jtms and Elspeth are worth considering though).

[anwei]

So, I happen to think New Horizons could be a very good deck right now. Old New Horizons went over the top of Cannadian Thresh and had a good matchup there while maintaining the Tempo strengths against combo decks. It plays as a worse tempo deck against midrange decks, but a better midrange deck against midrange decks. So if you picture the present RUG vs. Maverick matchup, it had a worse shot at establishing a quick clock and disrupting them long enough to close the game, but a better shot at winning a game that did go late. On the whole worse against midrange decks, but resilient midrange decks aren't good prey for tempo anyway.
Right now, the fair decks are very grindy (thanks in part to Deathrite and Decay), so they aren't good at establishing a quick clock against combo, which consequently thrives, and Tempo decks have a nice little niche in a very polarized metagame. Non-tempo Aggro-Control decks like Stoneblade, despite its popularity, are not good at their position in combo-prevalent metagames when the grindy decks are full of 2-for-1s; definitely not where I want to be. Tempo is a much better call.
Because the format is polarized, playing a Tempo deck that beats other Tempo decks is a very good place to be. If something can maintain strong combo matches and win the tempo mirrors with a decent plan in grindy games, it gets to keep RUG Delver's good match-ups and add its own points. That's the failed promise of Team America, and is the role that New Horizons would have to fill to succeed.

TL;DR: NH could be good as the tempo deck that wins tempo mirrors.

You're right that NH is something of a midrangy tempo deck. A "tempo" strategy means establishing a threat then maintaining tempo parity through cheap counters and mana disruption through to victory. RUG Lists can close grindier matches out with burn, which NH can't, and has to accommodate for. That's why old NH lists didn't run Mongoose - a 3/3 loses his impressiveness as the game goes on, and NH needs impressive creatures to get the whole way to 20 (Terravore is a good example, obviously).
Your list is missing Stifle, unless that's the other 4 cards (you only have 56), which shortens the early game and weakens your soft counters (it's also great with Geist). Playing GSZ means you need to tap out more often and later in the game, which also weakens Pierce (and Stifle, if you have it). More importantly, Snapcaster Mage, Mongoose, and Geist are all too weak against creature decks. Kamikaze-ing Geist off to death against nearly any creature in the format (Shardless Agent!) to punch 4 points through is a terrible value proposition. Daze, Force, and 4 removal spells aren't enough to keep a clean path.
Caleb recently highlighted a RWU list from Strasbourg using Geist, Snapcaster, and Mishra's factory with 10 removal spells (+SCM) to keep the weak guys swinging in. That's hard to do in NH. Vapor Snag is not a very exciting "removal" spell to get Geist in, though it might be the next best option. Engineered Explosives was in the old NH lists, and can do some heavy lifting, but is pretty slow. Submerge is great from the board, but is obviously circumstantial.
Exalted gets a little ground back, and Hierarch is a wonder in the tempo mirror for manabase stability, daze synergy, and winning Goyf wars.
Equipment on Geist is too slow for this.
Elspeth is really strong with Geist or with most guys in punching damage through, and synergizes well with Hierarch's acceleration.

I have tested a number of builds (Delver or no, Hierarch or no, Elspeth/Jace/no, varried removal packages) and would probably do something like this at the moment:

3 Tundra
3 Trop
8 Fetch
4 Waste
1 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
=21

4 Delver
3 Hierarch
3 Goyf
3 Geist
2 Elspeth
=15

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library
4 StP
4 Force
3 Daze
2 Pierce
4 Stifle
=24

Board: 3-4 Submerge

[luckme10]

Didn't some guy top a scg last year with a shroud bant version. Called it blossoms after the chappelle show or something?

[anwei]

A breakout list won an SCG event, and they have placed in other events subsequently.
Not the same thing.

[Tammit67]

What do you mean? I didn't have the chance to play NH back then, but it was a mid range tempo deck which dumped a shitload of lands in the grave and was playing 9/9 Kotrs and 14/14 Terravores. I would play Kotr and Terravores if I could, but since BUG exists I can't really.
For what it is worth, I think my list plays fairly similarly to NH, minus KotR shenanigans and Planeswalkers (Jtms and Elspeth are worth considering though).

The deck only had to answer like a few things in the meta since KotR/Terravore went over every threat that was played at the time. KotR shenanigans was pretty much the reason to play it, it didnt run walkers (sometimes you saw aether vial when Dave price was feeling spicy). God I wish Dave Price was still active on these boards.

You can still run Knight/ Terravore. Countering swords wasn't always possible, you shouldn't straight lose to abrupt decay (RUG doesn't after all). An argument against the deck is the printing of rest in peace and snapcaster, which make several good ways to invalidate your winconditions by overloading on removal or just making them small.

The deck always felt like it controlled/tempo'd then slammed a huge threat that needed two attack steps to just win, kinda like dreadstill of old. I don't know if you can do that successfully with geist right now.

Your list looks pretty cool though :)

[anwei]

You can still run Knight/ Terravore. Countering swords wasn't always possible, you shouldn't straight lose to abrupt decay (RUG doesn't after all). An argument against the deck is the printing of rest in peace and snapcaster, which make several good ways to invalidate your winconditions by overloading on removal or just making them small.

The deck always felt like it controlled/tempo'd then slammed a huge threat that needed two attack steps to just win, kinda like dreadstill of old. I don't know if you can do that successfully with geist right now.


Dependence on the yard and low, targetable threat count are the classic problems with the creature base.
Geist is, at least, a helpful answer to that. There is the possibility to nut draw Hierarch->Geist->Elspeth, swing 10. But using Delver+Geist definitely shifts the nature of what going on the aggressive looks like, so that getting a few early hits in before dropping a Geist is unnerving in the way that hovering around 6 against RUG is.

[kiblast]

Yeah I forgot Stifle in my list, thanks for pointing that out.!
When I was building this list I thought of RiP and it's one of the main reasons why I don't trust Terravore and Kotr anymore, just forgot to mention it. But also Decay is a huge pain in the ass because Threshold has Bolts, while we have Swords... even if Thresholds' Goyfs swing once, you have bolt to finish opponent as you correctly pointed out.

Mongoose gets hosed by Rip as well but at least it has shroud and we all know its power before RiP hits the table. Whereas Kotr and Vore are basically dead in a field of Snap+ Decay + StP and Rip afterwards.

Is it true however that with the creature config. I proposed we are just playing a worse Thresh deck, worse due to the absence of reach. Also GSZ is a bad idea since as anwei said you don't want to tap out early for it, but instead to kp mana open for Pierce and Stifle.

I do like anwei's list but I have a couple of concerns about it: firstly is it worth to run Canopy without KotR or Vore? the upsides are marginal since with 21 lands + 3 Noble you will almost always tap them for mana (you want to use your wastelands and you have cc3 and 4 in your deck). Then, isn't 23 spells too few to consistently flip delver?

[Qweerios]

I recently took 2nd at a small local event with a WUG Delver deck that resembles this deck a lot. Here is the list I used:


Creatures (12)
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Nimble Mongoose
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells (28)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Lands (20)
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard (15)
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Divert
2 Submerge
2 Path to Exile
2 Meddling Mage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze


The tournament went as follow:

0-2 vs. UWr Miracles - Both very close games. I lost a game to a couple of StPs and Terminus (no top, no brainstorm), and the other to Blood Moon.
2-0 vs. Affinity
2-0 vs. Merfolk - Bad matchup but my opponent was truly out of luck both games (some bad mulligans and a 4 Vial game).
2-1 vs. ANT - Tough G1 but a nearly impossible matchup to lose G2 and G3.

The Miracle player I lost to in R1 took 1st place.

Here is what is really interresting about this deck:

-It is a tempo deck that can take various forms from T1 Accel into T2 KotR or T1 Delver into T2 denial. I opted against cards like Spell Pierce because I want to only use disruption if it is free. The power of legacy permanents are too high and I cannot afford to fall back on the race by leaving mana open for anything other than Stifle.

-The mix of pressure and manipulation present in this deck often allows KotR to be active. Once he is, he brings the game back to a crawl by filling your graveyard with lands and destroying your opponents', therefore growing in size and enabling threshold in a timely fashion.

-Between 4 Ponder, 4 Brainstorms, and 4 GSZ, this deck packs quite a lot of manipulation. This little combination allows me to prey on each of my opponent's bad draws since every one of mine counts towards crippling or killing my opponent.

-Mongoose is at its best in low numbers and high availability. A weak card without Threshold but a strong one given the right board state.