PDA

View Full Version : [Deck] New Horizons



Pages : [1] 2 3

quicksilver
10-20-2009, 03:19 PM
So I really liked the card Horizon Canopy so I decided I wanted to build a deck around abusing it. The final result:

New Horizons:

4 Wasteland
4 Horizon Canopy
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Mox Diamond
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Terravore
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Force of Will

SB:
4 Krosan Grip
4 Engineered Explosives
4 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Life from the Loam
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale


How the deck plays:
The deck plays fairly similar to decks like Tempo Thresh and Team America. Although it doesn’t focus as much on land destruction it can put out a fairly fast clock, often gold fishing by turn 5.

Creatures:
This deck uses a creature suite of Tarmogoyf, Terravore, and Knight of the Reliquary.

Tarmogoyf can easily fill the roll of an attacker or a defender. His large size and cheap mana cost gives you much needed defensive capabilities against aggressive decks.

Knight of the Reliquary is generally the second creature to drop. Often 1 or 2 points bigger than Terravore when dropped early in the game, this card is a power house at blocking, able to block most creatures, while at the same time pumping it’s self, other creatures you control, and drawing you cards or destroying your opponent’s land. He is the first three drop the deck wants to play and often comes down around turn 3 at around a 4/4, but can come out earlier and bigger.

Terravore, although can often be good on defense, is the main offensive creature. Having trample and usually being huge can end games quickly. Some times he can come down small on turn 3 as only a 2/2, but he is usually at least up to a 5/5 around turn 5.

Spells:

The spells are all pretty standard spells, most of which require no explanation.

Mox Diamond, although sometimes very swingy, gives the deck the much needed speed boost in some match ups. Sometimes it is sub optimal but can be shuffled back with a brainstorm or just played without pitching a land to pump Tarmogoyf in a pinch.

Crucible of Worlds gives the deck a late game engine. It can lock out your opponent with wasteland or draw an additional card a turn with horizon canopy.

Side Board:

Like all side boards it can vary.

Currently I am playing Krosan Grip for counterbalance and it is of course useful in several other matches.

The explosives are there mainly for the agro matches. The side board strategy is difficult for those since I do not have too much to take out and I really need to board in an answer to Relic of Progenitus. Explosives allows me to destroy the relic if dropped early before it can do any real damage, sometimes taking out another creature with it. It is also useful if they just draw an agro hand and not a relic (or if they don’t even play relic, it’s hard to know for certain).

The crypt is for Ichorid, which always knocks me out if I am not playing crypt. It can also be useful in other random matches, such as 43 land.

Life from the Loam can come in against decks that: are vulnerable to waste lock; may be destroying my crucible; or want to destroy my lands. The more of these criteria the deck meets, the better Life from the Loam is. Decks such as Team America or Tempo thresh can meet all of these criteria and Life from the Loam can be absolutely devastating against them. I found two to be a good number since you do not want to get flooded with this type of effect since multiples are probably going to be useless.

The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is there mostly for Ichorid. If I can a knight to stick around for a turn it can fetch this up, leaving Ichorid only with Ichorid’s as its win condition. Knight can then fetch up an wastelands to ensure Ichorid can’t reanimate a fatty.

Matchups:

Some of the best matchups this deck has are against land destruction decks such as Team America, Tempo Thresh, Eva Green, Merfolk, and similar decks. The high land count of 22 lands when the curve stops at 3, plus counter magic to protect the lands if needed or cantrips to dig for more lands if needed plus mox diamond give it much resiliency to land destruction. Not to mention that once the creatures start coming down, they are going to be huge fast since the land destruction pumps them up.

Match ups with no removal for large creatures such as Tempo Thresh, Merfolk, Elves and others are favorable. They often have no way to get by large blockers and can only hope to chump attackers. These decks have no answer to Terravore, which often kills them in 2-3 hits.

In testing counter top has often proven to be a good matchup. They can occasionally steal game 1 with counter balance if they can keep a 3 on top, but post board Krosan Grips can nullify their only out. Since your creatures are almost always going to be bigger, it is hard for them to beat you in the creature war. They are also generally pretty vulnerable to waste lock.

Storm combo is an okay match. You have counter magic and wasteland can often slow them down. A clock that can often kill on turn 5 can put some significant pressure making wasteland and daze all the stronger.

Control decks such as landstill seem to be a rather poor matchup, like most thresh like decks. The amount of removal they have makes it extremely difficult to keep creatures on the board. If they are not playing a ton of basics wasteland lock is probably the best way to beat them.

Zoo is an ok match up and probably the one I have most extensively tested. I would say perhaps about 55-45 to 60-40 in the zoo player’s favor. If they bring in Relic of Progenitus then that could make it more difficult. The big killer in this match up is Path to Exile and Swords to plowshares. The deck invests a lot in its creatures and those creatures are extremely powerful in this match, so cheap removal is a huge tempo loss. In this match I try to save force of will for the paths and forcing on can greatly swing the game into your favor. Fortunately a lot of their removal is burn related and is rather bad against the creatures in this deck. You can often two for one their burn since it will often take another card along with the burn to kill it, and late game the burn can’t even do that. Grim Lavamancer is very powerful in zoo against you since it can often shrink your guys and deal two damage to them which can put them into burn range.

I have not played against goblins since the deck doesn’t seem very popular at the moment. I imagine this match would swing a lot if they ran Warren Weirding or not.

Merfolk is a very favorable matchup. The resiliency this deck has to land destruction combined with merfolk’s lack of removal (Jitte is to slow and weak in this match) make it very strong. Merfolk has little answer to Terravore. The main goal is to keep them off Lord of Atlantis and to a lesser extent Merrow Regery (their ways to stop me from blocking). If you can keep them off those not much left in the deck is a threat.

In summary the cards that are best against this deck are path to exile, swords to plowshares, and Relic of Progenitus. Some of the cards it is strongest against are burn spells and land destruction.


The deck has been performing well for me. I have taken it two three major tournaments. The first I was not playing any graveyard hate and was knocked out by Ichorid. The second was Star City Game’s 5k in North Carolina where I was again knocked out by Ichorid because I played no graveyard hate. This past 5k I did play the graveyard hate I listed above and did not get paired against Ichorid. I was instead lost to 43 land (he drew way better than me) and then to landstill (which is admittedly a bad match, but there were only 2 landstill out of about 150 people). All in all I was pleased with how I did and hope to get some better matchups in the future so I can post some real results. I just felt I needed to post this now since I don’t think I will be playing in another major tournament till next year :(.

So let me know what you people think.

Also if you are wondering about the name New Horizons, it’s based off the key card in this deck (Horizon Canopy). Also it’s named after the New Horizons ( http://pluto.jhuapl.edu/) space craft going to Pluto developed at where I used to work (although I did not work on that project) because Pluto’s just bad assed. Also some sort of metaphor for taking the agro control archetype down a new (land based) path.

Iare
10-21-2009, 02:11 PM
With recursion and horizon canopy I don't see the need for so many catnips I would recommend -2 ponder +1 Kor Haven and +1 mox diamond

Pastorofmuppets
10-21-2009, 02:55 PM
I would recommend spell check. Other than that, this just seems a little lacking in the creature department. Maybe you could splash Blue for Coatl, since you want to abuse your :1:: Draw a card.

beastman
10-24-2009, 03:47 PM
I only have to say that I believe there should be at least 1 life from the loam in the main, and some cycling lands.

SilverGreen
10-24-2009, 08:35 PM
You're playing 16 blue cards in a FoW deck, and this counting FoW itself.

You're trying to support Mox Diamonds playing just 22 lands.

Your deck plays an Aggro Loam's heavy creature base, but it have no Loam engine to fuel the strategy. And you're playing 8 creatures that rely on lands in graveyard alongside with CoW and Daze. So, if after a dozen turns you had cracked three fetches and wastelanded a dual, your 1GG Terravores will still be less than any ordinary 1G Goyf or BB Tombstalker (that probably hit play 4 turns earlier).

Your deck's playing a partial CounterTop/TA control suite, but it have no CounterTop lock nor Stifle/Sinkhole tempo cards, so you're not likely to stick one of your eight 3 mana creatures and protect it the time needed to either put an engine going, or to win in the meantime.

It's right in the middle of the road, but it don't even know which direction it wants to take. You can't build a deck around a support card, but you can adjust a deck to support it. What you did here was adjust an existing deck (or two decks in the case) to pretend it's another one, but it didn't lead the deck anywhere.

Hanni
10-24-2009, 08:42 PM
-Crucible
+Intution/Loam

My opinion, anyway.

Honestly:

U/G/b Aggro/Control Loam

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [U] Tropical Island
2 [A] Underground Sea
1 [B] Bayou
2 [MR] Island (1)
1 [5E] Forest (1)
1 [4E] Swamp (3)
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 [TE] Wasteland
3 [ON] Lonely Sandbar

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [OD] Terravore
3 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [ON] Gigapede
1 [JU] Genesis

// Spells
4 [BD] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [TE] Intuition
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [EVE] Raven's Crime
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 4 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [DDC] Duress

Just a shell to work from. Splash white, probably drop black. Cut a few things here and there, fit some Knights in, if you're deadset on Horizon's, somehow fit those in there. Minus this, plus that, yea. Just giving you an overall shell to take ideas from.

Goaswerfraiejen
10-24-2009, 09:10 PM
Another option would be to get rid of blue entirely, since it doesn't really seem to do much for you, and opt for G/W exclusively. This might yield a deck akin to the GW Terrarium (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=346031&postcount=16) deck we were discussing a few months ago.

GW Terrarium

4 Wasteland
4 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
3 Tranquil Thicket
2 Secluded Steppe
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Nantuko Monastery
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Maze of Ith
1 Treetop Village
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale


4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Terravore
3 Anurid Brushhopper
3 Exalted Angel
3 Qasali Pridemage

4 Mox Diamond
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Life from the Loam
3 Cataclysm
3 Solitary Confinement


SB:
4 Gaddock Teeg
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Krosan Grip
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Gaea's Blessing

Illissius
10-25-2009, 05:05 PM
(Cephalid Coliseum)

I had the thought of using Knight of the Reliquary plus Krosan Verges plus Emeria, but even I think that's terrible.

neckfire
10-25-2009, 11:22 PM
I would recommend spell check. Other than that, this just seems a little lacking in the creature department. Maybe you could splash Blue for Coatl, since you want to abuse your :1:: Draw a card.

i agree you should run coatle he gives you ways to abuse your late game package.

Poron
10-26-2009, 06:12 AM
what about Trade Routes? and why not cycle lands then...

Maveric78f
10-26-2009, 06:28 AM
In France, we have a local Tier 1 archetype that we call Bant Loam which is quite close to this.

Here is a commonly agreed list :



Lands: 25
1 Forest
1 Maze of Ith
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Secluded Steppe
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Flooded Strand
3 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

Acceleration: 6
3 Mox Diamond
3 Noble Hierarch

Beaters: 15
4 Knight of the Reliquary (the main card of the deck, you are supposed to be able to play it on turn 2)
4 Qasali Pridemage (can really be aggro and it's also a very good solution provider)
4 Tarmogoyf (because it's everywhere, probably the weakest beater though)
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant (evasion provider, wins under humility, aggro/control, army knife)

Tempo: 7
3 Stifle (completes the mana denial package, randomly very good in some MUs)
4 Swords to Plowshares

Long term plans: 8
1 Eternal Witness (tutor)
1 Crop Rotation (tutor)
2 Intuition (tutor)
1 Cenn's Enlistment (preferred over Worm Harvest because it's not grave dependant, less colour requiring and it can be played 1 turn earlier)
3 Life from the Loam

SB: 1 Mox Diamond (against combo to help having a turn 1 MM or Gaddock or Canonist)
SB: 1 Stifle (floating slot)
SB: 3 Meddling Mage (against combo and control)
SB: 2 JŲtun Grunt (for the mirror, I told you it was Tier1, ichorid to a lesser extent)
SB: 2 Burrenton Forge-Tender (gob, burn and aggro loam, ichorid)
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist (combo of course)
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red (gob, burn)
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt (mirror, aggro loam, Ichorid)
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives (toolbox)
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg (alternative to MM, even if it prevents you from playing Cenn's Enlistment and Elspeth, you enter it in MUs like landstill or tendrils combo where they are a bigger pain to the opponent)
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor (duplicates a lot of SB slots

One of the biggest mistakes when siding against this deck is to SB graveyard hate that is not relic, because :
1/ the deck plays well without graveyard thanks to exaltation and Elspeth.
2/ the deck can remove graveyard hate if needed quite efficiently with Qasali
3/ Stifle is another protection to grave hate.

The weaknesses of the deck: no disruption except for stifle and meedling mage. Tendrils is too fast and too resilient. Aggro loam usually does not care and its creatures grow faster. Survival has a better CA engine.

It has positive MUs against almost everything but Tendrils combo decks (very rare in France), aggro loam (not that rare) and survival decks (quite rare). Natural order can also be an issue but usually we can disrupt quite efficently the mana base (except against elves/survival) and meddling mage and teeg are also good protections. Gobs, burn, elfball and merfolks are even to positive depending on the builds. The rest is from positive to very positive.

quicksilver
11-09-2009, 02:13 PM
I played this in the blacksburg tournament the other weekend and came in third with a 3-1 record.

First round: Eva Green
Game 1: He started off just laying basic swamps and played no theats or land destruction. He killed my first few guys so I was thinking he was playing mono black control. He eventually dropped a couple guys. I swords/countered a few and played a few more creatures which were able to easily get there.
Game 2: Still think he not playing eva green. I don't think I had anyhting to bring in. He starts this game with some land destruction, so I only get up to three mana, which I use to play a few creatures. He smothers them and get's me pretty low with a goyf. I finally swords the goyf and get a few creature's to stick which wins me the game.

1-0

Round 2: Tendril's combo
Game 1: I draw a few wastelands, and waste his first few land drops. I then drop a terravore which can kill him in 3 hits. Combined with daze and the game ends quickly.
Game 2: I waste his first land drop and drop mox diamond. I play a knight 2 turns later. The knight fetches out 3 more wastelands to keep him off mana, then kills him in two hits.

2-0

Round 3: Zoo
Game 1: My opening hand is fine, but then I draw 2 daze's and 2 crucible's, all of which are completely dead. He draws plenty of path to exile's and I run out of playable cards.
Game 2: I mull into 2x horizon canopy, 2x force, 2x goyf. I draw a sub optimal mox diamond for my second turn and play a goyf. I draw a completely dead mox diamond the turn after that. He has too much removal for me to handle as well as a fast clock and I lose.

2-1

Round 4: Tempo thresh
Game 1: I resolve huge creatures, his deck has no answer.
Game 2: I resolve huge creatures, his deck has no answer. Although this one was funnier. The end of the game he is sitting on 4 spell snare. I had two goyfs in my hand the whole game which he saw with Vendilion Clique, but I never needed to cast them. He spent two or three turns icing a Knight which of course allowed me to just use his ability instead and I soon played a second night. At this point they were both 13/13's and was was just playing out goyfs and geese to chump block. I made fun of how tiny they were and we both had a good laugh over it.

The tournament was only 12 players and we didn't do playoffs so I ended up in third place.











I also played at the Dream Wizards tournament this past weekend. There were 24 players and I made top 8.

Round 1: Merfolk
Game 1: This game starts out really good for me, I get a second turn knight, followed by 2 terravore's and a swords for his lord of atlantis. I am going to kill him next turn, then he echoing truth's my two terravores and plays two marrow rejery, taking out my ability to block. The tempo loss is too much and he wins.
Game 2: I prevent him from getting much out and I drop a knight. He then drops back to basics. I am able to play a goyf next turn and I start swinging in. I get him to 6 with a 6/7 goyf and knight that was at least 6 power. He swings with his whole team putting me to one and then vials in a marrow rejery. I take my turn and swing. He sits there feeling stupid that he didn't leave back an additional blocker.
Game 3: He starts of fairly mana screwed. He has out a vial and a curse catcher. I try engineered explosives at 1 which get's stifled. I then drop a 5/5 terravore. He has two lands and casts a mind harness on my terravore. I am a little mana flooded and I only have lands in hand so this looks like it could be bad for me. I rip an engineered explosives and wipe his board and get back my terravore. Next turn I rip brainstorm, brainstorm in gas and shuffle back two lands.

1-0

Round 2: Belcher
Game 1: His first turn consists of draw go with no land drop. I'm like "wow that's terrible you better be playing belcher or something". Second turn he drops a LED's figuring I already know what he is playing. I think about dazing it but I decide not to, which was great for me because he drops a second led right after. I get out a third turn knight that puts a good clock on him. Two turns before he dies he draws a belcher. He plays chrome mox, ritual, which I daze and he pitches ESG. I didn't see a force that game so belcher resolves and activates and hits a land third card down. Unfortunately for me know he is in the rare situation where the second LED is good. There is nothing in my deck that can stop him at this point and I die next turn.
Game 2: I keep a hand with no force but a lot of cantrips so I have a good chance of finding on. I first turn ponder into two forces.
Game 3: Same as game 2 but I also have a engineered explosives in case he tries to empty the warrens.

2-0
Round 3: Natural Order Thresh (I don't actually see natural order, counterbalance or top any game)
Game 1: I decide not to daze his first turn noble hierarch since I have force and no other blue card and i would prefer to save the daze for force. Turns out bad for me, he plays a goyf turn 2,3,4, and 5. And a dazes my first three spells. Turns out he didn't even have a second land so daze didn't set him back in the slightest. Just too much counters and fat for me to handle.
Game 2: Things go fairly even, he get's out a knight and starts wasting me. I get out a knight a couple turns after. His is a 10/10 mine is a 6/6. He swings me down to 3. Next turn i am trying desperately to find a swords. He swings with an exalted 11/11 knight next turn. I block and get a horizon canopy looking for swords which I don't find leaving me with just 1 land, but my knight is also an 11/11 and they trade. I messed up here, if i had got wasteland instead of canopy I could have wasted my last land, making my knight a 12/12 and surviving, giving him 2 turns to find a swords. Instead the knights trade leaving him with a pridemage while I am at three. I ponder on my turn and find the swords but I only have 1 land out so I can't cast it.

2-1

Round 4: Fairies
Game 1: I am on the play and drop a second turn crucible. He is pretty scared. I quickly get him down to 1 swamp and he has gotten a bitterblossom out and I have a knight out. I then draw a terravore which he is not able to stop.
Game 2: I get a goyf out. He plays bitterblossom which I force bringing my goyf to a 6/7. He cannot handle the goyf and I win.

3-1

Round 5: I ID into top 8.

Top 8: Entomb Hulk
Game 1: I know what he is playing I start off with first turn mox diamond ponder waste his land. I play another cantrip next turn and waste his land. I cast two more cantrips next turn and do lot's of shuffling looking for a daze, force, or swords. I play a terravore next turn. Next turn I swing for 10 and can kill him the following turn. I play more cantrips. I end up playing all 4 ponders, all 4 brainstorms, and shuffle many times. I see zero froces, zero swords, and zero dazes. Next turn right before I kill him he rips his third land he needs to win and wins. He is absolutely shocked I haven't drawn anything to stop him, but I did draw about 7 knight of the reliquaries that game.
Game 2: He thoughtsiezes me which I misdirect back to him. He forces my misdirection and takes my swords to plowshares leaving me with just a goyf on the table and two horizon canopies in hand. He then plays needle on canopy. I draw a daze and more land. He goes off, I daze, but he has pact of negation. My draws the match were just really unlucky.

Top 8 didn't matter since we had split the prize before hand.

All in all my deck has been preforming well for me. I have been testing some tweeks since. I tried cutting the crucibles because although they are great, they are generally too slow for the current meta. I am replacing two crucible's with engineered explosives. The third crucible, a daze, and a terravore, with 3 misdirection. These changes give it a much better aggro match up without hurting other matches significantly.

Maveric78f
11-10-2009, 08:15 AM
I don't want to pollute your thread Quicksilver but as the (french) Bant Loam archetype does not exist on the source, I keep putting its results in your thread. Just tell me if you think it's too far away from the concept you were looking after and I'll start a new thread in the established decks sections.

Established yes, because after winning a 100+ people event in Bourgoin Jallieu (+another in the top8 and +me 9th with a black splash version of this deck too), it has just won this WE the legacy side-event at GP Paris (162 people). After doing 6 wins, 1 loss, it IDed to the top8 which it won. This deck is really popular in the french (almost) Ad Nauseam-less metagame. Ad Nauseam is barely the single bad MU of this deck (with Reanimator and to a lesser extent survival decks).

quicksilver
11-10-2009, 08:32 AM
I think you could safely make your own thread. The decks are different enough. You run a very light blue splash, where my deck is blue based.

soiber2000
11-15-2009, 03:24 PM
Last friday I tried this deck with my friends. It is quite good, and has big creatures that are dificult to get rid of with some decks.

May be I will give it a try in a tournament next weekend but with some changes. This is what I felt about it:

1- moxes are not very good, specially as a top deck. I'm thinking in cutting them and maybe upping 1 land.

2- crucible are good but 3 are too much because they are very slow as you said.

3- I tried 2 explosives main and they are great.

With this in mind, I would try:

-3 moxes
-2 crucible
+1 enlightened tutor
+2 engeneered explosives
+1 academy ruins
+ 1 Oblivion ring

and +1 dueling grounds in the sideboard

What do you think about this?

quicksilver
11-16-2009, 09:16 AM
The moxes are a very swingy card. Sometimes they are amazing. Fast matchups like agro and combo, they are almsot a nececity, turning a loss into a win. Other matchups they can be pretty terrible. They are very swingy in their power level.

I had tested academy ruins at one point, but it is very slow. Since the deck generally doesn't get aout a lot of mana, it can be quite mana intensive to academy ruins back a explosives.

I'm not a fan of enlightened tutor because of the inherent card disadvantage. I don't think the cards we can get are powerful enough to warrent that.

I also think Oblivion ring is a weak card in general.

Dueling grounds could be interesting, let me know how it turns out.

soiber2000
11-16-2009, 01:03 PM
The moxes are a very swingy card. Sometimes they are amazing. Fast matchups like agro and combo, they are almsot a nececity, turning a loss into a win. Other matchups they can be pretty terrible. They are very swingy in their power level.

I had tested academy ruins at one point, but it is very slow. Since the deck generally doesn't get aout a lot of mana, it can be quite mana intensive to academy ruins back a explosives.

I'm not a fan of enlightened tutor because of the inherent card disadvantage. I don't think the cards we can get are powerful enough to warrent that.

I also think Oblivion ring is a weak card in general.

Dueling grounds could be interesting, let me know how it turns out.

Quoted for true in general. academy ruins is too slow and sitational, and enlightened tutor, although it can be good for some utility, is card disadvantage. Then without enlightened tutor, oblivion is unnecesary as a 1of.

Maybe i'll try with 2 crucible and 2 explosives main, and upping 1 basic land and without the moxen. Then in sideboard the other 2 explosives and 3 dueling grounds. Just testing.

quicksilver
11-16-2009, 01:54 PM
If you wanted to cut the mox diamonds, you could try one of each basic land. You could also try noble hierarch although I just hate the idea of opening the deck up to burn being removal.

FieryBalrog
11-29-2009, 04:17 PM
Congrats on the finish.

Why not run Armageddon as a 2 of? This deck seems to ask for that option.

Zaresiy
12-29-2009, 10:58 PM
I was the bant player that you ran into at the dream wizards legacy (my name is Paul, and you gave Phil and I a ride to the Philly 5k recently, thanks btw). I wasn't actually playing counterbalance thresh, I was playing a slightly modified ugw tempo thresh http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/18235_Legacys_Allure_Exploring_Tempo_Bant.html , with a modified sideboard, and rhox war monks in place of vendilion cliques as I was afraid of zoo (as it turned out there was only one zoo player, my friend DoC whom I lent my zoo deck to, and I was paired against him first round, so the switch was perfect).

freakish777
12-30-2009, 08:46 PM
How about making it look more like CounterTop?

4 Counterbalance
4 FoW
4 Swords
3 Daze
1 EE

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Ponder

2 Crucible of Worlds

4 Knight
4 Goyf
4 Confidant

2 Mistry Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta

2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra

1 City of Brass
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Academy Ruins
1 Island




SB

4 Firespout
1 Crucible
3 Krosan Grip
1 EE
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Extirpate
1 Wasteland


Knight is in fact nuts, but I'm pretty convinced you should just jam him and Crucible into decks that already exist.

deadlock
01-03-2010, 08:14 AM
Congratz on your finish Dave and nice to meet you guys. Hope you made it back to the hotel and didnt need to stay the night up, sharing bread with bums! :tongue:

The new version looks of your deck looks really good - how did the Misdirections perform? I guess the their main duty is to protect your guys. Divert or Spell Pierce coul work similiar, but they have other restrictions.

I cant believe that Dreamhalls won the whole thing..

Peter_Rotten
01-03-2010, 09:03 AM
Personally, I'd love to see the new list and hear all about the match-ups in Europe.

Jak
01-03-2010, 09:04 AM
Personally, I'd love to see the new list and hear all about the match-ups in Europe.

Yeah, I'd also like to know how the 7 pitch spells did with only 18 blue cards. Any problems?

deadlock
01-17-2010, 02:50 PM
I currently test the list with the following changes:

- 1 Forest +1 Island
and 8 blue Fetch
For one reason i dont own the green based Fetches, secondly i want to open with basic Island in more cases than with basic Forest. The biggest drawback of this change is that Island doesn sac to Knight.

-3 Misdirection +3 Spell Pierce
Pierce is simply more versatile, i like it thus far.

-2 EE +2 Stifle
One reason is the bluecount, i like to have 20 blue spells, gives me also some flexibilty with siding. The other reason is that Stifle can randomly (as i just play 2) hit a Fetch and the opponent trembles in fear for the rest of the round. The second reason is that it protects against Crypt and Relic in game 2. I also consider to play the other two in the board against control (Fetchland based) and combo.

I also considered Predator, but i dont want to add more 3 mana cards for now. May go back to EE as its a good all around answer.

About the board, one stated problem is that your creatures get hit by Path / STP so i consider 2 Kira from the board, it makes Predator from the board more attractive too).

One question, is a single Maze of Ith from the board worth it? I would bring it in against Reanimator,

I like about the deck that you have such large creature - Knight and Vore are insane if unchecked. Also unlike other decks you really have good topdecks - you basically never get scrwed by land flood as you can use Knight and or Horzion C. + a very low mulligan rate.

Atwa
02-20-2010, 09:37 AM
I missed this thread as I opened op one for myself about the deck, based on the list Dave played the 13th. I'll just c/p the whole thread I made into here, so forgive me if the post looks a bit messy:

As I was browsing through the tournament section of the boards, I found a deck played by Dave Prince (Quicksilver) to a second place at a tournament at Jupiter Games on Feb 13th (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?15458-Feb-13th-Gigantic-Legacy-Jupiter-Games!-Power-Duals!&p=428726&viewfull=1#post428726). Seeing I love almost every deck playing Terravore (must be because I'm Dutch), I started to play the deck a little on mws and it actually feels pretty powerful.

Here is the list Dave played:
1 forest
1 plains
3 tropical island
2 tundra
4 windswept heath
2 flooded strand
2 misty rainforest
4 wasteland
4 horizon canopy
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 stifle
4 swords to plowshares
4 daze
4 tarmogoyf
4 knight of the reliquary
3 terravore
4 force of will
2 engineered explosives

sb
2 blue elemental blast
2 engineered explosives
2 crucible of the worlds
1 tabernacle at the pendrell vale
4 krosan grip
2 tormod's crypt
2 bojuka bog

All in all a very solid list. It actually makes me think a little about a hybrid between Canadian Thresh/Team America but uses Knight and Terravore as primary beaters.

After playing a little with it, I came to a couple of conclusions:
1, Your primary big beaters are very dependent on the graveyard. Most of the time this doesn't matter that much on game 1, but after sideboarding your creatures can become a little underwhelming.
2, Against a smart reanimator player, once they land a fatty, it's pretty much game over. Same is true about a landed Progenitus.
3, Game 1 you have a lot of troubles with resolved Ensnaring Bridge, Moat and other nasty enchantments and artifacts. I felt some form of hate maindeck was needed.

Considering this, I've changed the deck to the following list:
1 forest
1 plains
1 island
3 tropical island
2 tundra
4 windswept heath
2 flooded strand
2 misty rainforest
4 wasteland
3 horizon canopy
3 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 stifle
4 swords to plowshares
4 daze
4 tarmogoyf
4 knight of the reliquary
2 terravore
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 force of will
2 engineered explosives

sb
1 blue elemental blast
1 Hydroblast
2 engineered explosives
2 crucible of the worlds
1 tabernacle at the pendrell vale
3 krosan grip
1 tormod's crypt
2 bojuka bog
2 Tariff

-1 Ponder, -1 Terravore, + 2 Qasali Pridemage:
I wanted ways to break a Tarmagoyf impasses and a way to get rid of troublesome artifacts and enchantments maindeck. This card can do both, and makes the creature base less dependent on the graveyard.

-1 Horizon Canopy, + 1 Island:
When cutting a Terravore, you make the deck less pressed to get to GG, I already felt 4 Canopies were a little too much, and I like to be able to fetch all colors the deck plays as basics.

SB -1 Crypt, -1 Krosan Grip, + 2 Tariff:
Tariff is great against Progenitus and Reanimator. Even though we have counter magic, sometimes we just can't stop decks from landing these cards. Seeing Swords to Plowshares can't target Prog or creatures with Shroud, Tariff gives us a way to deal with those creatures. IMO 2 Crypts and 2 Bogs are a little overkill, as you can search for Bog with your Knight. A full playset of Grips isn't needed then you already play 2 Pridemages.

-1 Blue Elemental Blast, +1 Hydroblast:
I only have 1 blackbordered BEB.......

Any thoughts on the deck or the changes I've made are appreciated.

Atwa
03-03-2010, 09:24 AM
I guess a small report forgives me for double posting.......

I played my version of the deck at the GP, keep in mind that I didn't test the deck before I went, so my results could have been better, although I don't think it affected my playing a lot. Here is the list I went with:

1 forest
1 plains
1 island
3 tropical island
2 tundra
3 windswept heath
3 flooded strand
2 misty rainforest
4 wasteland
3 horizon canopy
3 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 stifle
4 swords to plowshares
4 daze
4 tarmogoyf
4 knight of the reliquary
2 terravore
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 force of will
2 engineered explosives

sb
1 blue elemental blast
1 Hydroblast
2 engineered explosives
2 crucible of the worlds
1 tabernacle at the pendrell vale
3 krosan grip
1 tormod's crypt
2 bojuka bog
2 Tariff

It's basicly the same list I proposed in my earlier post, with only a minor change to the fetch configuration (-1 heath, +1 strand) and I added a last minute Pridemage as the 61th card.

Here is how I went:
Round 1: Affinity
G1, I pretty much went berserk on him with pridemages (thank god for the 3th), a knight and Terravore, easy win.
G2, I had a slow start, and Affinity did it's thing.
G3, Maybe the most thrilling game of the day. I was in a situation where I was at 3 life, with some land and a 6/6 Terravore in play, he had a Disciple, Relic and a untapped Ornithopter in play. He was at 6 life and had enough creatures to kill me next turn. I Grip the Thopter, dropping to 2 life, swing in when he cracks Relic (drop to 1 life), Stiffle it's effect and deliver the clear 6 damage needed to kill him.
1-0 (2-1 in games)

Round 2: Zoo
G1, He drops Kird Ape, Kird Ape, Tarmogoyf and just rushes to the win. Not much I could do.
G2, I don’t remember exactly how this round went, but I won :)
G3, See above
2-0 (4-2 in games)

Round 3: Merfolk
G1, I counter and Stp everything anoying and ride a Knight to victory.
G2, I went aggro on him, dropping Knight, Goyf, Goyf and have a counterspell ready for protection
3-0 (6-2 in games)

Round 4: ANT (this guy won a GPT and I am out of practice.........)
G1, I see nothing and simple waste every land I see and beat with terra and knight
G2, I didn't side anything (had no idea what he was playing) and got combo'd out on turn 3
G3, I start going aggro in the hope of making AN less effective when he plays a Chant, I look at my hand and have 2x Fow, Pridemage and Stifle. I Fow the Chant, removing the other Fow and let him finish, he plays tutor and sees he comes 1 spell short to win via a direct Tendrills search (if only I could have lost 2 life on purpose at that time), so he goes for AN. The first 3 cards he revealed were Chant, Chant, Chant, so my plan of stifling the final Tendrills went up in smoke and I took the loss.
3-1 (7-4 in games)

Round 5: Burn (yeah, at the GP, burn made 3-1......)
G1, I let him do his thing, while I rush him to death. I Fow and Stp some Maurarers in the proces to keep my guys rolling.
G2, Same as before, only now I had to waste one of my own lands to avoid some PoP damage, which grew my own beasts even bigger.
4-1 (9-4 in games)

Round 6: Merfolk
G1, Very hard win, close game but I don't remember any details.
G2, Lost easily, Waketrasher and Lord of Atlantis spell a easy death
G3, This game started pretty bad, but swung a few times in both of our favours. At some time they announced time and I was thinking at that time to be lucky to get a draw out of it. The tide changed though and I was just going for the final swing when my opponent pointed out we had our 5th round and the game was a draw. This raised some disbelieve from me since I had a wrong understanding of how the 5 turn rule worked (never went to time before), but when we cleared that out, we wrote a 1-1 score on the sleeve and I went out for a smoke.
4-1-1 (10-5 in games)

Round 7: Some countertop variant.
I have no coherant memories of this match, but I do know I started out both games pretty well and still lost them. Not sure if it was me being mentally drained or he was just the better player (propably both), but I guess it doesn't really matter. I lost this one 0-2
4-2-1 (10-6 in games)

I was thinking about dropping at this moment, however I still wanted to play a final game and drop after that one, not caring if I won or lost. I found the perfect opponent for that. I had to play a Russian guy with some homebrew deck playing Epochrasite, Cloud of Fairies, Ninja of the Deep hours and funny things like that. I lost 1-2, but it was the most fun match I had played the whole day.

Day 2 I played in a small knockout tournament and went 2nd, after beating Zoo 2-0, a NoGoyf variant 2-1 and losing to Bant Survival 2-0.

Overall I was pretty pleased with the deck, but I have a couple of observations:
- The Horizon Canopies, while a good card, are pretty underwhelming in the deck. I already cut 1 to make room for a basic Island and I might even consider going down to 2 to make room for a normal Savannah. Not being able to fetch both W and G sucks at times, and slows the deck down. The loss of life does matter at times, and in my experience there are too many lands which you want to blow up for a deck with only 23 lands. I also rarely search for Horizons with Knight, I am busy attacking most of the time and at the times I do use it's search ability, I go for Wasteland or fetches.
- Pridemages are really needed in this deck. I wouldn't have had 3 of the 4 winnings if I didn't have Pridemage. I would even raise them to 4 if I knew what to toss out of the deck, however 4 would make the deck even more dependable on WG without any real duals for these colors. 3 Feels right at this moment.
- The amount of blue is really low in this deck, almost too low to support FoW. I have sit numerous times with a Fow in my hand without any blue cards to pitch. I might go a pretty controverial route and try them out in the sideboard and use cards like Daze, Spell Pierce and play old Counterspell/Mana Leak as the mainboard counterpackage. I'm not saying it's the way to go, but I want to test it out anyway.
- The Combo matchup pretty much sucks. I found this deck weak against 2 things, 1 of them is Relic, the other one is Combo. The counterpackage is inadecate to deal with the matchup because of the points I mentions above. To Fow something, you would have to remove your only other counterspell so the rest of the game is homefree for your opponent.
- I would like to suggest Null Rod in the board (and maybe even in the main). Sure it keeps you from activating your own Explosives, but let me sum up what this card actually shuts down: (EE, Relic, Crypt, Lotus Petal, Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, LED, Vial, SDT, Charbelcher, the whole Affinity deck, and more obscure things you will run into everntually. This single card can shut down a large portion of black storm decks, Affinity, the most used hate cards against you, and hurts decks like Dredge, Goblins, Merfolk, Lands, Countertop and Aggro Loam. Noone will side in Grip against you, so only MD Pridemages will hurt it, but you wouldn't side it in against Zoo anyway and against Bant it also isn't really effective.

That's what I have to say for the moment, I would really like to hear other's opinions about what I concluded so far, since I really feel the deck could be e decent contender at an average tournament, with some more tuning.

deadlock
03-03-2010, 03:32 PM
Hey, nice to see someone else play this!
I will comment on your issues and afterwards i will present you my version.


- The Horizon Canopies, while a good card, are pretty underwhelming in the deck. I already cut 1 to make room for a basic Island and I might even consider going down to 2 to make room for a normal Savannah. Not being able to fetch both W and G sucks at times, and slows the deck down. The loss of life does matter at times, and in my experience there are too many lands which you want to blow up for a deck with only 23 lands. I also rarely search for Horizons with Knight, I am busy attacking most of the time and at the times I do use it's search ability, I go for Wasteland or fetches.

While i think that they are not needed as a 4 of, i still really like them for the following reasons:
- Sometimes you draw slightly too much mana, which can either be directly turned back into a card if you draw a Canopy or as soon as you have an active Knight. I like this a lot, it makes the deck more consistent.
- While it cant be fetched, it still does criticall mana fixing.
- I fetch them quite often with Knight in cases where Waste doesnt do anything and i am not mana screwed.


- Pridemages are really needed in this deck. I wouldn't have had 3 of the 4 winnings if I didn't have Pridemage. I would even raise them to 4 if I knew what to toss out of the deck, however 4 would make the deck even more dependable on WG without any real duals for these colors. 3 Feels right at this moment.
I agree here, i run 3 too and think it is a good number. While 4 are nice to have, keep in mind that they are bad as blockers and not that good against quite some decks, where their ability is not relevant (Exalted makes them still decent).


- The amount of blue is really low in this deck, almost too low to support FoW. I have sit numerous times with a Fow in my hand without any blue cards to pitch. I might go a pretty controverial route and try them out in the sideboard and use cards like Daze, Spell Pierce and play old Counterspell/Mana Leak as the mainboard counterpackage. I'm not saying it's the way to go, but I want to test it out anyway.
- 19 is a little low, especially when you run cards like Stifle and Daze, which get sided out quite often.
- I run 20 with the option to go to 21 (the 21th would be a single Rhox Warmonk instead of the 4th Knight, not sure about this, i try to get away with the 4th Knight.)


- The Combo matchup pretty much sucks. I found this deck weak against 2 things, 1 of them is Relic, the other one is Combo. The counterpackage is inadecate to deal with the matchup because of the points I mentions above. To Fow something, you would have to remove your only other counterspell so the rest of the game is homefree for your opponent.
I wouldnt say that it sucks completly, it just needs a little help from the board. This may also differ from build to build.


- I would like to suggest Null Rod in the board (and maybe even in the main). Sure it keeps you from activating your own Explosives, but let me sum up what this card actually shuts down: (EE, Relic, Crypt, Lotus Petal, Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, LED, Vial, SDT, Charbelcher, the whole Affinity deck, and more obscure things you will run into everntually. This single card can shut down a large portion of black storm decks, Affinity, the most used hate cards against you, and hurts decks like Dredge, Goblins, Merfolk, Lands, Countertop and Aggro Loam. Noone will side in Grip against you, so only MD Pridemages will hurt it, but you wouldn't side it in against Zoo anyway and against Bant it also isn't really effective.
- While sounding interesting, i dont know what to could fo it. Also i would not be concerned about Affinity, this deck doesnt put up any results as far as i know.

My build for reference:
// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [B] Tundra
3 [B] Tropical Island
1 [ZEN] Island (1)
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Forest (1)
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
2 [OD] Terravore
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage

// Spells
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 [ARB] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk

Some remarks in comparison to your build:
-Noble Hierarch: This card is pretty nutty and i really recommend it to you. If you wish i can list the advantages, but it should be more or less obvious. With Hierarch you can cut the basic plains too, which is not that good in my opinion.

-Spell Pierce: I like this card over Stifle quite a bit and a little bit over Spell Snare. I dont like to rely really heavy on the mana denial plan, having 8 cards (4 Waste + 4 Knight) is enough. In that sense and compared to Canadian Thresh, Knight fills the spot of Stifle for me. Mostly compared to Spell Snare, it really helps against combo, where Stifle can be good to, but sometimes its dead, as you never get the chance to Stifle that Tendrils, whereas a Pierce could have countered the AN beforehand. While Snare hits quite a bunch i am not that afraid of opposing Goyfs and CB gets hit by Piece too. Pierce also helps a little bit against some hard to deal with cards from control decks (not that they are played often, but still).

-Sideboard is quite different from yours. I added a couple of cards to help against combo, but i dont want to run cards that just help against them and against nothing else like Canonist. I also think that its important to run a couple of blue cards in the board (one big advantage of both Rhox and Meddling Mage btw.), as i side out blue cards many times and without them it would drop my blue count too much.
Still i am not completly sure about Mage. Another card where i am not sure about is Jitte, i mainly run it for the Tribal Matchup. Sometimes it is a little bit too slow, but if it comes online it can be devastating. I had quite some problems against merfolk players, which brought in Kira (Bant Survival plays her too), if you propose a better answer against here i am open to here it.
I also would like to run the 3rd Crypt, as without either Crypt or (Knight->Bog) Dredge is a pain in the ass.

Atwa
03-05-2010, 09:28 AM
I like the list. You take it a different direction as I did, but it looks good.


Hey, nice to see someone else play this!
While i think that they are not needed as a 4 of, i still really like them for the following reasons:
- Sometimes you draw slightly too much mana, which can either be directly turned back into a card if you draw a Canopy or as soon as you have an active Knight. I like this a lot, it makes the deck more consistent.
- While it cant be fetched, it still does critical mana fixing.
- I fetch them quite often with Knight in cases where Waste doesn't do anything and i am not mana screwed.[\quote\
I agree with you that Canopy is a good card in this deck, but in my opinion 3 is still too much. I am going to test out a 2 Canopy/1 Savannah configuration and see if my issues with it are gone. I would never cut them from the deck, but I must say I almost never search for them. I like the thought about switching a Knight for a Warmonk and maybe them I would keep them at 3.

I almost never use the Knight to fetch anything when it's not needed. When my opponent has no (or only smaller) blockers, I'd rather use him to deliver some beats. When not needing a wasteland or extra mana(fixing), I normally just EOT search for fetchland, growing him +2/2 instead of drawing a extra card. But maybe that's just my play style, I normally play more aggroish decks and don't have the patience for a more controlling role. Worked well for me so far though :)

Noble Hierarch is a nice inclusion, but I feel I'd like Stifle more in the 1cc slot. True, 8 mana disruption cards are a lot, but at the GP I was almost always happy when I got Stifle. I might go down to 3 if I really need the space in the deck, but I wouldn't cut it. Stifle has so many other uses than just hitting fetch and Tendrills. I won a critical round by Stifling a Relic, I won a round against ANT by just hitting all his fetch. It's very good. Spell Pierce is a card I was already thinking about, and I might add it, but for now I think the Hierarch is a little underwhelming to be honest (and I don't have the money to spare for it too, maybe after it rotates out of Standard).

Null Rod, I am sure as hell going to test this one out. I think the advantages it has can fill out a lot of the weaknesses the deck has. I know Affinity hasn't been putting up numbers at the moment, but I just take the fact it hoses Affinity as added benefit. The card is good enough to test out even when Affinity wouldn't exist.

Crypt is decent, and I am going to switch my own Bog/Crypt configuration to the 1/2 you play, but I think that's enough for me. The only reason I might want to add a 3th crypt is if the Meta gets flooded with Reanimator decks, however Dredge isn't that much of a problem. That is just one matchup where Tabernacle really shines. If you don't have a Tabernacle, I can see the need for the 3th Crypt though.

Mage seems interesting, but it might be a little tricky. I haven't been playing enough lately to feel confident playing cards like Mage (or Therapy for that matter), but if it works for you I think it's a keeper.

I've come to the conclusion Tariff isn't that good, especially against Iona, since any competent player will name white against me anyway. I'm still thinking about how to fix that, for the moment I might go with a odd Wing Snare :)

After some consideration, here is the list I am going to test out for now:
1 forest
1 island
3 tropical island
2 tundra
1 Savannah
3 windswept heath
1 flooded strand
4 misty rainforest
4 wasteland
2 horizon canopy
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
3 stifle
4 Spell Pierce
4 swords to plowshares
3 daze
4 tarmogoyf
4 knight of the reliquary
2 terravore
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 force of will

sb
1 blue elemental blast
1 Hydroblast
2 engineered explosives
3 Null Rod
1 tabernacle at the pendrell vale
3 krosan grip
2 tormod's crypt
1 bojuka bog
1 Tariff

Atwa
03-16-2010, 07:24 PM
After some testing, I still felt I missed a little beef to beat face with, but I didn't want to lower the blue cards again, so I switched a Spell Pierce for a Rhox War Monk, and it has been decent so far.

I've also been thinking about answers to Iona, and the whole Reanimator deck in whole and came to the conclusion Tariff pretty much sucks. Sure, when it resolves you take out any of their creatures, but you are also likely to lose your biggest critter (you stabilize at 3-4 lands very often, not counting wastelands). And even then, when facing Iona, any decent opponent will likely name white, since you only play StP maindeck as an answer.

I started to think about it a little and I decided to borrow a strategy I've used against Progenitus with Eternal Garden: Circle of Protection: Red. In Garden I use it primary to board in against deck packing Price of Progress and Progenitus, and we normally don't have any problems with red decks, but there is one thing the following cards have in common: Sphinx, Progenitus, Archangel, Archon and Iona: They are all white!

So I switched the lone Tariff for a Circle of Protection: White. Sure, a Ione on white still stops it from being played, however normaly we have enough counterspells to stop the first (and hopefully second) reanimation spell or natural order from being played, giving us time to actually cast the Circle. Other advantages it has over Tariff is that it is a proactive card, you can stop multiple creatures and you can keep using it over and over again.

The Additional splash damage it gives to Rhox War Monk, Eternal Dragon, and the occasional White Weenie and UW Fish deck is only added benefit.

For reference, here is the list I use now:
1 forest
1 island
3 tropical island
2 tundra
1 Savannah
3 windswept heath
1 flooded strand
4 misty rainforest
4 wasteland
2 horizon canopy
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
3 stifle
4 force of will
3 Spell Pierce
4 swords to plowshares
3 daze
4 tarmogoyf
4 knight of the reliquary
2 terravore
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Rhox War Monk


sb
1 blue elemental blast
1 Hydroblast
2 engineered explosives
3 Null Rod
1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale
3 krosan grip
2 tormod's crypt
1 bojuka bog
1 Circle of Protection: White

Maveric78f
03-17-2010, 05:19 AM
Against Iona and Progenitus, there is Wash Out and Vesuvan Shapeshifter. Both are quite mana intensive but I guess you have sufficient mana to deal with it.
Karakas is also a nice option against Iona, since you can tutor it quite easily.

Edit: I agree with Tao that Terravore is a weak slot. So are Ponders and Dazes. I'd see here before squares of stifle/pierce/qasali, some Elspeths, witness, 1 LftL, some intuitions?

Tao
03-17-2010, 06:43 AM
Have you thought bout the new Jace in this, maybe instead of the Terravore? Both the bounce and the Perma-Brainstorm seems pretty effective with this list and it is blue for FoW. Another plus is that it deals with the popular Iona.

easyrider
03-27-2010, 11:50 PM
I played in a tournament today with the deck. I went 3-2-1. My main deck was quicksilver's exact 60 from the tournament he won. My board was the following:

4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Krosan Grip
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Armageddon

This was the first time that I played this deck, and I made the sideboard 20 minutes before the event. I beat Reanimator 2-1 R1, however, he should have won the last game. I beat Belcher 2-1 R2. I lost to Pro Bant 1-2 R3. I beat Pro Bant R4. I drew with Mono black vampiresR5. I lost to Pro Bant R6.

My sideboard was fairly terrible. Armageddon was a non-factor. I think they should have been 2 Path to Exiles. Gaddock Teegs and Explosives should have been 1 Karakas and 3 cards that are useful against Reanimator and Progenitus, such as Wash Out.

I lost three of the four games to Pro Bant because of a Progenitus. Before then, I had an slight to large edge in board position before the hydra came down. That is why I want to put three Wash Outs in the sideboard.

I was actually surprised at how good the Terravores were. I expected them to be too small to be effective, but they were always huge and won me multiple games with trample. However, I feel that there need to be 3 creatures that can be replacements for the Vores against decks that may bring in Relic. For this reason, I am going to try out 3 Vendillion Cliques in the sideboard. They also make for nice tricks with Karakas.

Parcher
04-11-2010, 03:30 PM
I think that this deck has probably Established itself at this point.

Atwa
04-11-2010, 06:36 PM
I think that this deck has probably Established itself at this point.

Any recent and decent placements lately?

I don't see a lot of activity in the thread. I'd be interested in some other lists, to see what direction others have taken it so far. I haven't had time for tournaments lately, but I plan on taking this deck with me to my next tournament.

Sims
04-11-2010, 07:22 PM
Last two Vestal tournaments that Eli has run at Jupiter... Last month, Dave won with it i believe (106 players), and yesterday both Dave and Jesse Krieger went into the top 8 with the deck (91 players i do believe.)

It's putting up numbers here in the states, I dunno about elsewhere or how similar/different the lists are.

Adrian123
04-12-2010, 12:48 PM
I just won a 15 man with this deck which doesnt sound like much but it is a very competitive field.

in fact the field was 3 reanimator, 3 merfolk, 2 Zoo, 1 ANT, 1 Countertop, 1 Dreadstill, 1 Eva Green, 1 Goblin, 1 Something who knows, and Me.

i beat reanimator, merfolk, Zoo, Dreadstill and Eva Green and lost to Countertop.

The deck seems quote strong but in every game i just felt like it wasnt quite there for some reason. I just got rolled by countertop HARD, merfolk was a tough matchup and i think i only one because he was playing a slower control version and i had llawan in side. Zoon is a blowout if i keep a hand wtih a wasteland and a stife. dreadstill is the same. Eva green i won because he got stuck on a one lander in game 3. Against reanimator he chose to reanimate Iona when i had a knight out and i just looked up a karakas and won from there.

All in all i feel that luck was about 20% of my wins today and having a finely tuned side for the meta was also a huge factor.

Overall im only midly impressed with this deck and dont think i will play it again.

Cheers,

johanessen
04-13-2010, 09:25 AM
This is the currently list i'm thinking to pick up to a big tournament in Barcelona this weekend (100 people)


4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
4 Horizon Canopy
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Island

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of Reliquary
4 Qasali Pridemage

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
2 Ponder
1 Engineered Explosives

Side:
4 Spell Pierce
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Krosan Grip
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas/Maze of Ith/The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale?????????????



Noble Hierarch is nice, but we want the t1 stifle and we also need the 20 blue cards to support force of wil...

Another option is to include Stoneforge Mystic: great card-advantadge creature, inmune to Perish (becoming very common in the sb of my meta).

I opted for a 3/3 Split of Daze and Spell Snare and reduce ponder qty. Trying always to have at least 20 blue cards to pitch fow (4 fow+16 others)

Engineered Explosives is the anti-aggro sideboard card. While PtE is good vs Merfolk, didn`t shine against Zoo because they search for basics and ruins our manadenial plan. And Rhox War Monk was good vs Zoo but Merfolks overwhelm it so EE is the conclusion.

Last question: Savannah or basic Island/Forest?


Please comment.

Tinefol
04-14-2010, 07:03 AM
A guy in my area had recently run to a top2 split something along the lines of

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
3 [A] Tropical Island
3 [A] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [MI] Plains (4)
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [UG] Island

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
2 [OD] Terravore

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [M10] Ponder
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind-Sculptor
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [FD] Engineered Explosives

johanessen
04-14-2010, 10:26 AM
I've been testing the list I posted and Qasalis doesn't fit the deck... altough they are good creatures by their own.
And I've had big problems with fast aggro (Goblins and Merfolks specially, and Zoo),

So I'm back with terravores but I also added red to sideboard firespouts.

That's the deck right now:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
4 Horizon Canopy
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Taiga
1 Island

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of Reliquary
2 Terravore

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
2 Ponder
3 Engineered Explosives

Side:
4 Spell Pierce
2 Krosan Grip
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Firespout
1 Volcanic Island

I've been happy with the basic Island and the split of 3/3 Daze + Spell Snare, while I liked to have 2 Ponders that allow a 1st turn mana open to Stifle on the play and Spell Snare on the draw.

The reason Taiga maindecked and Volcanic Island sideboarded is simply, In the 1st game we don't need red (except for an exceptional explosives@4) so we can cycle the Taiga with Reliquary. Postboard, we can have the Volcanic Island with all eight fetchlands in case we need it.

Deck looks more solid now.... any thoughts?

Bardo
04-14-2010, 01:24 PM
Promoted to Established.

ju bboy
04-14-2010, 03:42 PM
Here is version that I test since soon 2 months.

// Lands
1 [ZEN] Forest (1)
2 [R] Tundra
2 [R] Tropical Island
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [U] Island (2)
1 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [U] Savannah

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
2 [OD] Terravore
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage

// Spells
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [LRW] Ponder
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 3 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 1 [IN] Wash Out
SB: 3 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 1 [TSP] Vesuvan Shapeshifter

me too i add firespout in side but i think one source of red is great.
Null rod is really general-purpose, I play it very often and even against ANT he makes of the magic!
Anybody has tested jace? I am very satisfied with his inclusion; great versus rťanimator, he sometimes allows to block definitively the mana of the opponent by preventing him from digging up the color that we cut him (in particular against threshold).

(sorry for my bad english)

Atwa
04-14-2010, 05:45 PM
Don't you think your graveyard hate is little excessive? Esspecially considering 77% of your creature's size depend on graveyards?

In my version I play 1 Bog, 2 Crypt and that has been plenty for me. What decks do you really have to fear?

In my testing, the only graveyard depending opponents I have trouble with are Dredge and Reanimate. You already have Wash Out and Shapeshifter against Reanimate (along with other grave-hate) and against Dredge, a simple Tabernacle ruins their day.

I'd cut at least a Bog (since you play enough hate already) and add an Engineered Explosives. Maybe 2 and cut the Firesprout. Explosives and Null rod work against each other, but you would never board both in against a deck.

ju bboy
04-15-2010, 04:13 AM
Atwa

Don't you think your graveyard hate is little excessive? Esspecially considering 77% of your creature's size depend on graveyards?


i'm a little ok with you for this. i change ressently my side for more graveyard hate because often i want to be able to fetch (with reliquary) several bojuka in the same part. The solution would be exit a tormod to keep 2 bojuka, but i no like that...


Explosives and Null rod work against each other, but you would never board both in against a deck.

it's not my opinion. for example, against merfolk you would board both. null rod versus jitte, relic and vial. i do not need to describe why explosive. in my french metagame, merfolk is very play.

Jak
04-20-2010, 10:25 PM
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Tundra
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Terravore
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives

SB
4 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Meddling Mage

I plan to experiment with this. Not a lot of input but I really like Jace here since most blue decks in the format should be running him, especially this as it can be a great supplement to the tempo game by bouncing guys, keeping lands from being drawn, or just winning the game with Brainstorms or the ulti.

I really have no idea what to put in the SB though, so this is the main reason why I am posting. Meta is pretty general so there isn't anything that needs to be hated out.

whienot
04-22-2010, 02:13 PM
There was some talk about Dueling Grounds earlier in the thread. Any results?

It seems incredible against aggro and when coupled with Maze of Ith, it can lock out an opponent. Maze also plays well with Knight of the Reliquary.

Also, do you think Curfew would be too much of a tempo loss against Reanimator?

St3B
04-22-2010, 03:43 PM
I want to pick up the deck so I looked up the list David Price played not too long ago:
1 Forest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Daze
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Terravore
4 Force of Will
2 Engineered Explosives

SB:
4 Tormodís Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Krosan Grip
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Rhox War Monk
2 Crucible of Worlds

A few things crossed my mind:
1) Wouldn't it be better to play 1 Academy Ruins in the board insted of 1 Explosives
2) In what matchups do you bring in Crucible of Worlds?
3) How does this deck fare against Goblins?

IsThisACatInAHat?
04-22-2010, 04:17 PM
There was some talk about Dueling Grounds earlier in the thread. Any results?

It seems incredible against aggro and when coupled with Maze of Ith, it can lock out an opponent. Maze also plays well with Knight of the Reliquary.

Also, do you think Curfew would be too much of a tempo loss against Reanimator?
I tried about two dozen games replacing the Crypts with Dueling Grounds, but never more than a handful at a time. For me, they've been a complete disappointment in matchups where it should be good (Goblins, Ichorid, etc.). Then I switch back to Crypts, feel like I'm over-siding for graveyard-based match ups, switch back and the process starts over. Against better players, Crypt definitely made a difference where Dueling Grounds... did not. Maze also is nice, but Tabernacle is consistently better in almost all instances I've encountered. I've been using this (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=33412) list, -1 Bog +1 Tabernacle and have been entirely happy with the switch because of the additional utility of Tabernacle outside of graveyard-based opponents while still nailing Ichorid. The only exceptions might be DDepths (which you have stifle and waste for anyway) and Reanimator, which isn't difficult to begin with unless they get the nuts (as they sometimes do) or you should have mulled. Essentially, you (usually) pay 3 mana for a bigger creature, which they in pay cards and life for (so you can race). If they don't reanimate Iona, you've got swords and 8 cantrips to find it. If you're still having trouble, Curfew could fit in the 2 BEB slot.


1) Wouldn't it be better to play 1 Academy Ruins in the board insted of 1 Explosives
2) In what matchups do you bring in Crucible of Worlds?
3) How does this deck fare against Goblins?
In my experiences:
1. No.
2. Decks with powerful utility nonbasics or a strong mana denial plan. It's also generally useful against anything without lots of basics, but can be slow. Still, it's a bomb if you've got the time to set up recurring wastelock. Knight is mostly an instant fix for mana problems, but is susceptible to creature destruction (especially from black, which has access to a strong LD suite too) and can only give you parity with however many lands you're currently running, where Crucible outright replaces them.
3. Very well. Sometimes Goblins gets a nutty draw and T1 lackey into SGC+ T2 piledriver, but the match-up is definitely positive. Lists not splashing black for weirding are strongly positive. RWM is a sub-optimal replacement to the BEBs he had (I also strongly suggest the 2nd Bog over 4th Crypt if you're looking for yard hate, since it's tutorable and instant), but your creatures are all big enough that you never have to trade and 4 EEs gives you the ability to control how many goblins hit the table or force the goblins player to overextend.

cdr
04-27-2010, 08:15 PM
Since quicksilver (Dave Price) doesn't come on the source anymore, someone else should probably take over the thread so the first post can stay updated. It's such a good deck that I'd hate to not see it pushed.

perm
04-27-2010, 08:51 PM
maybe i'm a giant retard, but Mana Vortex seems appropriate

IsThisACatInAHat?
04-28-2010, 12:16 AM
maybe i'm a giant retard, but Mana Vortex seems appropriate
Mana Vortex has a lot of problems that prevent its inclusion. Its CIP trigger goes on the stack, which means your opponent can force you to pay it and then counter it, leaving you down a land in addition to Vortex. It also doesn't synergize with Knight or fetches, since even after activating one, you still need to sac a land every turn. It's a lot like Crucible/ Waste lock, except it essentially forces you to use it every turn (you lose a land, they lose a land) until way past its usefulness. New Horizons wants tempo, not a board sweeper. It might be nice to get rid of extra lands you don't need in the lategame, to pump Knight and Terravore, but Knight can do that EOT anyway.

In practice (I actually tested it, against my better judgment), it was either very slow or just not worth casting. The only time it proved somewhat kind of beneficial is when a bad CBtop player wasted a Brainstorm to put his RWM back so he could counter it (he then insisted Dryad Arbor is fetchable with Flooded Strand so he could cast NO without sacing his goyf). The point being, Vortex doesn't do anything that cards in the deck don't already do better. The reason I single Vortex out is because it, like most of the suggestions in the thread (QPM, RWM, Jace) seem to completely miss the point of what the deck is trying to do in the first place, cutting extremely valuable cards like EE to do it.

In order for a card to merit consideration, I think it should either synergize with the groundwork in place without displacing something more valuable if it wants to be maindecked or shore up a bad/ mediocre matchup if it wants to be boarded. That means a maindeck card would most likely need to help protect threats (Spell Pierce, Spell Snare and Dispel come to mind, but would probably have to replace something necessary like Ponder) and a board card would need to improve the combo matchup (again, the above 3 come to mind) without seriously detracting from something else that needs to be helped. That said, both the maindeck and sideboard are very close to completely optimized. In the last few weeks of playing New Horizons, no card really felt dispensable. I could possibly see switching out BEBs in the board since most red-based MUs are all pretty solid, but even that's only two slots.

ju bboy
04-28-2010, 07:49 AM
Why everybody still plays crucible in side? I removed them because in my testl I have always better to play.

Here is my side at the moment:
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 3 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 3 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 1 [TSP] Vesuvan Shapeshifter
SB: 2 [PS] Meddling Mage

Atwa
04-28-2010, 08:05 AM
Why everybody still plays crucible in side? I removed them because in my testl I have always better to play.

Here is my side at the moment:
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 3 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 3 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 1 [TSP] Vesuvan Shapeshifter
SB: 2 [PS] Meddling Mage

I cut the Crucible right away when I started to play the deck. my side right now is:
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 3 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 2 [5D] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [LE] Karakas
SB: 2 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast

I added Karakas as answer against Iona, where I first played Circle of Protection: White. CoP was decent against Reanimate (hits all their creatures except Leviathan), but the biggest problem is Iona, and Karakas can be tutored for. I still play Blast to keep Price for Progress in check, but I might cut it.

How does Meddling Mage play out? I try to avoid it, since it can be easily played around, but I am curious about your experiences with it.

ju bboy
04-28-2010, 09:10 AM
For iona i have 2 jace v2.0 MD and vesuvan Sb, but karakas is great and can be tutored. One of my questioning is to know if it is necessary to play karakas or vesuvan or cop white...i like vesuvan for progenitus but it's a little random. Idem for cop. And karakas is not an answer for progenitus/inkwel...

two slot for meddling are not definitively fixed. I like very much cannoniste also, but it is not blue, now sometimes after side we miss cruelly blue spell for FOW. I play meddling to gain time against ANT, it is not a long-term solution (as you say it is possible to play around) and you must kill speedly after play it. Meddling adapts itself well to numerous situation.
But this 2 slot are reserved for a card against combo because the MU is very difficult and null rod is not sufficient after side.

whienot
04-28-2010, 09:56 AM
Atwa, is your current maindeck the same as the last you posted?

Atwa
04-28-2010, 12:46 PM
Atwa, is your current maindeck the same as the last you posted?

I just made 1 change:
-1 Spell Pierce
+1 Stifle

When I keep an Island open, I prefer to mess with their mana instead of countering a card which I could also have taken care of with Daze or Force of Will. Also, messing with someone's acces to mana is in the long run a better way to discupt someone then counting a random spell. Now Spell Pierce is a very good card in this deck, but it works best with the 8 card land denial suite. It's just a minor change, and the effect is so minor it could be pure psychological, but I prefer this config.

This would be the list I'd play in a tournament at the moment, although I've been working lately on making Food Chain.dec more viable, so I haven't tested it a lot lately.

whienot
04-28-2010, 02:36 PM
Thanks, Atwa. Do you ever miss having any EE main?

What is everyone's opinion on Jace 2.0? In my testing it has been pretty solid. I usually end up molesting my opponent's manabase then dropping Jace, which leads to a scooping like manner. He is at the top of the curve and it's understandable why he may not be desirable. I'm still trying to completely wrap my head around the deck.

So, if you like him, why should he be included. If you hate him, why is he unnecessary?

ju bboy
04-28-2010, 04:46 PM
i think jace is perfect for this deck. First, it's blue for FOW. Then he is very fickle and safe many of game.
For example against rťanimator is just the card which allows us to win the first round when iona is spent.
The possibility of managing the card of the top of the library gives us a severe advantage: for example against zoo that limits the chances to take itself a lightning bolt or other one when we are low in life. More that harmonizes very well with the strategy manadenial of the deck.

We play 8 fetch, thus the capacity which makes brainstorm often allows to recover a hand.
The capacity which bounce often allows to fire the bloqueur to allow to pass our creature.
The last capacity is more trivial, but at least is a truth alternative kill.

Moreover, the mana bases support very well his casting cost, thus there is really no reason for playing without it.

Resist_Temptation
04-28-2010, 05:03 PM
Jace 2.0 is a solid inclusion. It is the nail in the coffin. The card just does way too many good things to not add it. And that the mana is usually available to cast it. Seems like a match made in heaven. But on a serious note, someone earlier said that they run blue elemental blast in case of price of progress. what decks are running price of progress and i am guessing that they are out of board. I know burn runs it, but it doesnt seem like zoo could run it seeing as they run just as many if not more non basics.

Atwa
04-28-2010, 05:21 PM
Thanks, Atwa. Do you ever miss having any EE main?

What is everyone's opinion on Jace 2.0? In my testing it has been pretty solid. I usually end up molesting my opponent's manabase then dropping Jace, which leads to a scooping like manner. He is at the top of the curve and it's understandable why he may not be desirable. I'm still trying to completely wrap my head around the deck.

So, if you like him, why should he be included. If you hate him, why is he unnecessary?

I think I misplaced the Firesproud in the sideboard I posten (stupid copy/paste), I still play 2 EE in the side.

But for the main I prefer the inclusion of more countermagic, along with the Pridemages and the single War Monk. I almost never use EE as a true sweeper, normally I only take out 1 or 2 creatures against aggro. War Monk costs me most of the time the same amount of mana (or less) as I would spend on a EE and it serves me "almost" as good as an EE would serve me. Adding Pridemage made the inclusion of EE even less necessary, since it can take care of every permanent type except land.

I haven't tested out Jace yet. Primary because I didn't have the time, but also because I hate to spend $50 on a type 2 card. Since there is no way I am going to buy it for the next year, I saw no reason to test it yet. From others I've heard it's pretty good, but I don't have any experience with it myself.

But on a serious note, someone earlier said that they run blue elemental blast in case of price of progress. what decks are running price of progress and i am guessing that they are out of board. I know burn runs it, but it doesnt seem like zoo could run it seeing as they run just as many if not more non basics.
I've faced Price of Progress 5x during the GP and some side events day 2. 4 out of 5 times it would have been lethal. I did run a version which was a lot lighter in the counterspell department then, so it's inclusion might be a little overkill now, but I've always been happy to have it in the board.

Resist_Temptation
04-28-2010, 06:31 PM
I get that it is played, but which decks run it out of board? Unless you faced burn decks? But I don't really see burn being that popular.

eyeless
04-29-2010, 05:18 AM
I'd be interested in some other lists, to see what direction others have taken it so far.

http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=New%20Horizons&format=Legacy

4 different players @ 4 different events:

4 Brainstorm
3-4 Daze
4 Force of Will
0-3 Spell Pierce
0-4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Knight of the Reliquary
0-3 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Terravore

4 Ponder

2 Engineered Explosives

3-4 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
4 Horizon Canopy
0-1 Plain
3 Tropical Island
2-3 Tundra
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

sbs:
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1-2 Bojuka Bog
2 Crucible of Worlds
1-2 Engineered Explosives
4 Krosan Grip
0-2 Spell Pierce
0-1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Tormod's Crypt
___________________________________________

questions:
-) do we really need Crucible of Worlds in sb?
-) isnt 4 Ponder main too much?

___________________________________________


Wouldn't it be better to play 1 Academy Ruins in the board insted of 1 Explosives
?
sounds good!

Resist_Temptation
04-29-2010, 10:20 AM
Academy Ruins does not seem like it would fit in here. Academy ruins seems like an un-needed non-basic as extra colorless mana is not a good idea as wasteland is there already. We are not playing landstill we have a fairly fast clock and multiple/recurring EE are not usually needed. and on the last page.(not this one but the one before) Many say that they have not been using it in their lists.

paK0
04-30-2010, 10:29 AM
I tested this deck a little and I really like it.

One Question though, how are the Combo, Reanimator and Dreadstill MUs?
Loosing to these 3 decks is not really an option in my meta so I wonder if it is profitable to play this.

whienot
04-30-2010, 11:13 AM
From my limited playtesting, Reanimator: good. Tendril's Combo: not so good. Belcher: good. Dreadstill: you have EE, 4 Stp, counters and huge guys, should be good.

I board 2x Curfew against Reanimator, as well as 2x Jace 2.0 main and a Maze of Ith. Inkwell is the worst thing I could see game one from them. Even then, if they used Reanimate, I can race with my own huge guys. You even have the option of Wastelanding your own islands away and infi-block with an 8/8 Terravore/Knight.

Belcher is quite easy. Tendril's you can beat, but it really depends on how good the combo player is. I've been trying a pair is Spell Pierce in the main. They're alright, but I haven't run into combo yet.

I haven't played against Dreadstill, but I used to play the deck alot and this doesn't seem like a great matchup from their perspective.

Mark Sun
04-30-2010, 08:04 PM
This deck looks very solid, I'm giving it a go right now.

Probably just taking David Price's list and running with it until I can figure out what the flex slots are, but I really like the prospect of Jace, TMS & red splash with Firespout. Anyone had luck with the latter?

whienot
05-01-2010, 04:50 AM
There's a brief article (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19238_Practical_Legacy_A_New_Horizon.html) up on starcitygames.com.

Equinozio
05-02-2010, 09:48 AM
I've been playing these deck for the last few days and I really like a lot KNTR but i can't say the same with terravore. Don't get me wrong at the late game is by far gigant but I'm trying some other things instead.
-3 terravore
-1 ponder

+2 StoneForge Mistic
+2 swords equipment ( one of each , and added jitte at the side).

these equipments make tarmo and reliquary very agressive. I'll tell more when I'll have more testing.

whienot
05-03-2010, 11:30 AM
Dave Price does it again. He took New Horizons to a 3rd place finish at the Atlanta 5k.

Here's (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=32452) the list. He probably would've made the finals if Gerry T's Inkwell Leviathan was English.

Worm Harvest in the board seems tech against aggro. I wish Price would come back and give a report.

Mark Sun
05-03-2010, 04:14 PM
Dave Price does it again. He took New Horizons to a 3rd place finish at the Atlanta 5k.

Here's (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=32452) the list. He probably would've made the finals if Gerry T's Inkwell Leviathan was English.

Worm Harvest in the board seems tech against aggro. I wish Price would come back and give a report.

Agree. Worm Harvest does seem pretty cool, no Bojuka Bog? I definitely would have considered a 3/2 split of Crypt/It because Ichorid shows up a ton at the 5K's (not to imply that 4 Crypts weren't enough). So, I tested some matches on MWS against ANT, how does this deck win against it again? I'm obviously just learning to play the deck, but it seems really lopsided in ANT's favor.

I'm about 75% that I'm going to take this to a weekly on Wednesday to give it a go and just see how the deck performs against a random metagame.

IsThisACatInAHat?
05-03-2010, 05:13 PM
Agree. Worm Harvest does seem pretty cool, no Bojuka Bog? I definitely would have considered a 3/2 split of Crypt/It because Ichorid shows up a ton at the 5K's (not to imply that 4 Crypts weren't enough). So, I tested some matches on MWS against ANT, how does this deck win against it again? I'm obviously just learning to play the deck, but it seems really lopsided in ANT's favor.
It usually doesn't. If you don't keep a blue-heavy hand g1, your best bet is something like "mull into something blue." It's a difficult match to be sure, but if you can manage to keep 2 hate pieces (stifle, force+ other blue card usually works out for me) then you should be alright. Spend the time you have shaping your hand if you can, land a Knight and fetch wastelands like no tomorrow (but do it EOT so you still have stifle mana open if they go off) and hope for the best.

I can't say I agree with his sideboard though. 4 Crypts and 0 Bogs seems like a weird split since Crypt is bad and hated-against while Bog is instant and raises your EE limit up to 4. I'm also running Spell Pierce in the now-RWM and 1 KGrip slots to help against combo and it's been pretty useful for its part. Not earth-shattering, but pretty useful. Worm Harvest is probably danger of cool things, but I could see where it'd help against decks running sac effects rather than targeted removal. I'm still waiting for Tabernacle to make the list again. As long as Ichorid and tribal are as ubiquitous as they are, it's staying in my board.

Equinozio
05-03-2010, 05:36 PM
What cards are normally sided out? I should think daze and fow? Could some who has played the deck say what is the way to side. Because from David's list I think for krosan + 2 ee side are too much but always depending the way the side is made.

paK0
05-03-2010, 07:02 PM
Mh, I really don't like the board.

1. Worm Harvest, 1 is too random, but I guess it comes in against control (why would you board 5cc against aggro?) so i guess it goes with the 2 Crucible to have 3 against control.

2. 2 EE. 2 Main habe always been enough for me, what are they used for? (Belcher mb?)

3. No Combo hate.


On Spell Pierce:
In most decks I use it SP is the card vs combo of my choice, but I can't see it being good here. Yeah, it is a cheap counter but it seems you are most vulnerable turn 3 when you tap out to play Knight/Vore (having Goyf is better here), so if they know what they are doing they will go off there and then SP is a FoW Pitch at best.

I really like the MM idea, it is blue as well, it beats and slows them down. Will need testing though.

DEADGUYRED
05-03-2010, 10:48 PM
Mh, I really don't like the board.

1. Worm Harvest, 1 is too random, but I guess it comes in against control (why would you board 5cc against aggro?) so i guess it goes with the 2 Crucible to have 3 against control.

2. 2 EE. 2 Main habe always been enough for me, what are they used for? (Belcher mb?)

3. No Combo hate.


On Spell Pierce:
In most decks I use it SP is the card vs combo of my choice, but I can't see it being good here. Yeah, it is a cheap counter but it seems you are most vulnerable turn 3 when you tap out to play Knight/Vore (having Goyf is better here), so if they know what they are doing they will go off there and then SP is a FoW Pitch at best.

I really like the MM idea, it is blue as well, it beats and slows them down. Will need testing though.

The Worm Harvest is an additional threat against control decks which is by far the worst match up for this deck because they are able to destroy all your creatures and they lay a plainswalker or card advantage spell and pull too far ahead. The idea is they will be unable to answer a recurring threat every turn this is something that Dave and I haven't yet tested however it was just an idea we wanted to try out.

The Engineered Explosives in the sideboard come in against a wide variety of decks it was mainly for the zoo match up as a sweeper this along with the Rhox War Monk (previously beb) makes the zoo match up winnable. Other match ups that it has proven to be useful are Ichorid(preventing zombie swarms) and the Merfolk match up.

I haven't had any problems with the combo match up so I've found no reason to have any sideboard cards dedicated to it.

I don't understand why people would want to cut ponder for additional creatures specifically Qasali Pridemage I haven't tested him but one reason Terravore is important to the decks strategy is the fact that your creatures outclass you opponents. Qasali Pridemage doesn't really do that at all.

Mark Sun
05-03-2010, 11:45 PM
@IsThisACatInAHat?:

Thanks for the assessment. I like the discussion previously about Null Rod in the SB to shut down ANT's (and TES's, obviously) artifact mana. It doesn't scream "I win," but it does slow them down enough. I'll have to play some more matches, but the ones I have done have been really rough, where I pretty much only win if they lead with their only nonbasic and they get shut off mana for a while. The deck does have a fast clock in a sense of a swift beatdown without opposition.

About the SB, Tabernacle is going to be my end goal (here to wish myself good luck with that one), but right now its cost is through the roof still and I'll have to get more funds if I want one here. Definitely seems like the right choice with 4 KotR And 4 Stifle to protect it. Any ideas on temps until I get to that point?


@Equinozio:

Obviously depends on what you're playing, and whether you're on the play or on the draw. I'm assuming without any accelerants (some lists are playing Hierarch now?), 4 Daze is a likely candidate to get taken out g2. Boarding out FoW seems like the right idea against aggro, like Zoo, in favor of 2 EE/2 RWM. I have cards coming in the mail soon, so I'll try to post some mini-reports from my weekly locals and we can start compiling some more information.

IsThisACatInAHat?
05-04-2010, 02:19 AM
I haven't had any problems with the combo match up so I've found no reason to have any sideboard cards dedicated to it.
As someone who's probably tested a fair bit, can you elaborate on this? I've won a grand total of 1 match against some DD variant due to insanely lucky opening hands g1 and 3. Counting only good combo, (specifically ANT, NLS, DD-whatever) it's been a nightmare matchup for me. Your clock is slow enough that they've got ~3 turns on 18-20 life, during which they can nab your Force with Duress and then Ad Nauseam into another one to pick off that Stifle they might have missed. The only difference for me has been that neither Force nor Stifle are guaranteed, while Duress before and after the Ad Nauseam is.

Provided I've been misplaying the matchup, how would you suggest to play it assuming your hand isn't double Force, double pitch, Stifle, land, something? I know the exact line of play will vary depending on what you've got, but the idea of "stop Ad Nauseam at all costs" has thus far not been working for me.

@Morbid-
I just use a second Bog when someone else is using our team Tabernacle. It only comes in for matches with lots of creatures anyway, so Ichorid and tribal. Non-merfolk tribal is a wash anyway and merfolk can be good given similar quality draws, though definitely not the ultra-positive I've read and heard so much about. That leaves Ichorid, which is tough to begin with, so the extra hate is definitely welcome. It can also occasionally improve your already-positive matchups against Lands, Reanimator, Aggro-Loam and Stax with an knight-assisted instant fetch if you're feeling like you need it.

Rain
05-04-2010, 12:26 PM
Finished 2nd place in 83 players tournament Saitama, Japan.
7 round with top8.

maindeck
4 misty rainforest
4 windswept heath
3 tropical island
3 tundra
4 horizon canopy
4 wasteland
1 forest
4 tarmogoyf
4 knight of the reliquary
3 terravore
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 stifle
4 daze
4 force of will
4 swords to plowshares
2 engineered explosives
sideboard
1 bojuka bog
4 tormod's crypt
2 engineered explosives
2 spell pierce
4 krosan grip
2 crucible of world

round1 valakut/scapeshift combo
2-1
board +2 cow +2 sp -4 stp

round2 ubr tempo faerie
1-1-1
board draw: +2 cow +2 ee -4 daze, play: +4 daze -4 fow

round3 goblin
2-1
board +2 ee -2 daze

round4 aggro loam
2-1
board +4 tormod +2 ee +2 cow +1 bog -4 daze -4 fow -1 forest

round5 aggro bant
1-1-1
board draw +2 ee +2 cow -4 daze, play: +4 daze -4 fow

round6 zoo
2-0
board +2 ee +2 sp -4 daze

round7 canadian thresh
2-1
board draw: +2 ee +2cow -4 daze, play: +4 daze -4 fow

top8
quarterfinal gw aggro with sfm/jitte
2-0
board +2 ee +2 grip +1 bog -4 daze -1 forest

semifinal goblin
2-0
board +2 ee -2 daze

final uw control without still
1-2
board draw: +4 grip -4 daze, play +4daze +2 cow -4 fow -2 grip


I want meddling mage in board for combo/control match up.
like:2 bog 3 grip 2 ee 2 cow 3 tormod 3 mage
have anyone tested the mages?

Mark Sun
05-04-2010, 05:24 PM
@Rain:

How did you like Spell Pierce? I noticed that you boarded it in against Zoo (not ideal), and Scapeshift (ideal). Did you miss RWM?

I'm going to be conservative tomorrow and run the board as-is (maybe 3/2 split of Crypt + Bojuka Bog), if I do feel that I need MM, I'll have notes.

Rain
05-05-2010, 12:41 AM
@Morbid

Yes I missed RWM a little against zoo/goblin.
Against zoo, I boarded Spell Pierce in for his PtE and Helix or REB back up his removals.
I know RWM is far better than SP in zoo match up.

I think Bojuka Bog/KotR's instant speed is very useful, but I'm afraid multiple Bojuka breaks my mana base.
Maybe that isn't broblem against Reanimator/Ichorid match up.
Which cards do you board out if you board in 2 Bojuka? Forest and Canopy or Forest and any spell?

Thank you.

Mark Sun
05-05-2010, 10:39 PM
Okay, I played at a local today, going 2-2 (not the greatest, I know). Not much of a sample to make any hard conclusions on, since I beat Merfolk twice and lost the mirror (to a very experienced Canadian Thresh player, which this deck resembles) and to Stephen Menendian playing Lands. Some comments before I go out for Cinco de Mayo:


- I think Crucible is subpar here, and that's saying a lot for losing the mirror because of it. I had a close game against the mirror and got blown out game 2 when I boarded out Force on the draw and he lands a protected Crucible and proceeds to destroy the mana base. I didn't board in Krosan Grip, obviously.

- Merfolk is fine, except for Submerge, which hits every creature in this deck and is a major setback, especially when fetching / tutoring with Knight. I almost got blown out g2 when he Submerged one of my creatures, and played Jace, TMS to bounce the other (Stifle). I never let Jitte do anything.

- About Lands, I had an excellent game 1, but boarded like Rain did with Aggro Loam, and instead of -4 FoW, I did -4 StP (figuring I could take care of his manlands via Knight or having bigger guys). I don't know if that was the right play or not, apparently not because I lost the match 1-2, but needed to take care of Exploration, or at worst, Manabond. I always had enough to deal with X Maze of Ith, but he would be able to resolve Loam and get more answers. Crypt was fine, but I may not have been judicious enough with them.


I think the SB could benefit from Kira, Great Glass-Spinner a lot. Playing all four of my matches I wished for something extra to protect my threats, since there are so little of them, against cheap removal. That was the problem. If I were to play again, I would do something like:

4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bojuka Bod
4 Krosan Grip
3 Null Rod (Combo? Maybe Pithing Needle here)
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner


Any thoughts? And Rain, you were right about the extra Bojuka, this deck needs colored mana a lot, and it was definitely good to have only one.

daPaule
05-06-2010, 04:03 AM
- I think Crucible is subpar here, and that's saying a lot for losing the mirror because of it. I had a close game against the mirror and got blown out game 2 when I boarded out Force on the draw and he lands a protected Crucible and proceeds to destroy the mana base. I didn't board in Krosan Grip, obviously.


So just to make it clear: CoW isn't that hot cause the mirror was close until CoW resolved on his side and he beat you.

For me that sounds more like it was the matchwinner, therefore wasn't bad at all.

Rain
05-06-2010, 08:53 AM
@Morbid

I think your board against Lands deck was correct.
4 Explosives can deal with Manabond and Exploration.
I think this match up depends on number of Crypts we draw.

About Kira
We have Terravore as additional threats while common decks have only 4 spot removals usually StP.
This is a strong point of this deck compare with other tempo decks like Canadian Threshold, Team America.
I think Meddling Mage can enough to stop additional removals like PtE zoo and white aggro decks use, Perish any Black decks use, board sweepers and Plains Walkers control decks use.
Thats's not bad for us if opponents use their removals on MM.
MM can be boarded in against combo decks too.

Against removalful decks, Worm Hurvest that David Price put in his sideboard at SCG Atlanta would work.
Worm Hurvest would work against multiple Maze of Iths too.

Mark Sun
05-06-2010, 09:51 AM
@ daPaule: I was in a hurry last night, and just typed some general thoughts. My notes for that game actually have that I started the game with 2 StP and Canopy + Wasteland, which is a greedy hand for being on the play. The Canopy got stifled, and I couldn't keep up with the Crucible when I didn't draw another land. More my decision to keep that hand, less Crucible, and I didn't mean to overexaggerate the role that it played in my loss. I lost faster, but the board position by turn 4, he could have played a Scathe Zombie and I would have been in trouble.


@ Rain: I'll test 3 MM in the SB if I can, I agree with you that it does have merits. I'm not sure about Worm Harvest against Lands; the main issue is that the list plays their own Engineered Explosives, Crypt, and Bojuka Bog, and I'm not sure if a single WH can make that big of an impact in that matchup. I do like it as a "deal with me or get overrun" card late game against other decks, however. New SB coming soon :smile:

paK0
05-06-2010, 04:36 PM
So, seems like the only really debatable thing right now is the sb?

this is mine right now:




SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 [EVE] Worm Harvest
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 4 [ARB] Meddling Mage


most lists seem to run 4 Crypt + 4 Grip, neither CB nor Dredge is really popular here, so I think if I cut one of both of them its fine, frees up two spots (man this decks board is really tight).

2 RWM for Aggro, 1 Harvest + 1 Loam for Control (I like Loam over Crucible since it is better with Harvest and is recurrable)

That leaves 4 Slots, they gotta take care of the whole Combo Gauntlet (ANT + friends, Belcher, Reanimator)

Is there 1 card that answers all of these 3?
MM seems to be at least decent, but slow against Belcher.
Canonist is great vs combo but Belcher might be too fast and Reanimator hardly cares.
Spell Pierce seems to be good, but I really don't like how 7 of your threats cost 3, since you can't keep them from going off eternally.

So it might boil down to meta-decision, but in a vacuum it seems like SP it the card that answears them most effectively, right?

Rain
05-08-2010, 10:53 AM
Small tournament 30 players attended Tokyo Japan.
4 rounds without top8.

the list I played
maindeck was the same as my last tournament.
sideboard
1 Bojuka
4 Crypt
2 EE
2 CoW
2 BEB
3 Grip
1 Worm Harvest


Round1 Counter Top
game1: Play with 1mul. I couldn't play Tarmogoyf because of his early Vedalken Shackles. His 3StPs and FoW blew my 3KotR and a Terravore. I Dazed his RWM and finally I draw last KotR with ponder, BS, Canopy and he Couldn't find his last StP

board: -4 Daze, -1 FoW, -2 StP for +1 EE, +2 CoW, +1 WH, +3 KG
game2: no mul. He stacked with 1land a turn. I destroyed his Pithing Needle calling Wasteland, Wasted his land, stifle was FoWed. My CoW strangled him and KotR did finish though a few creatures were StPed.
2-0(1-0)


Round2 Non LED Ichorid
game1: Play with no mul. He discarded Grave-Troll his discard step. His 3times dredges revealed 2Bloodghasts, 2Bridges, 2Narcomeba, 1Therapy.

board: -3 Daze, -3 Terravore, -1 Forest for +4 Crypt, +2 EE, +1 Bojuka
game2: No mul with FoW, StP, Stifle, KotR, no Crypt. He mul to 4. He played turn1 Pithing Needle calling Crypt but couldn't any Dredge. My KotR did finish without any problems.

game3: No mul with Crypt. He played turn1 Needle again calling KotR this time. I played turn1 Crypt. His Breakthrough didn't put any threat but lonly Imp in his gy, I activated the Crypt next his draw step after he dredged the Imp. Nothing happened until the end of the game.
2-1(2-0)


Round3 The Rock
game1: Play with 1mul. His tons of removals sweeped all my creatures I played, with a Deed, 3StPs, 3Pulses, a Diabolic Edict.

board: -4 Daze, -1 FoW, -1 Stifle -1 Forest for +2 EE, +3 KG, +1 WH, +1 Bojuka (He fetched basic lands every time)
game2: No mul. The game of his Gaddock. My creatures were dealt, he played Gaddock, Tarmogoyf, Confidant, Tarmogoyf. I couldn't find a StP holding 2EEs in my hand.
0-2(2-1)


Round4 GW Aggro
game1: Play with 1mul. My creatures were bigger than his.

board: -4 Daze, -1 FoW, -1 Forest for +2 EE, +3 KG, +1 Bojuka
game2: No mul. Same as game1.
2-0(3-1)

I finished 3-1, 4th or 5th place.

I feel Worm Harvest is good against removeful decks or Counter Top decks.
BEB is better than RWM against Goblin and Zoo having some Wastelands.
Yes the board of this deck is realy tight. I couldn't find the space for MM.

humppa
05-08-2010, 03:55 PM
Hi,
I have trying this deck in last weeks - that means I am really not very experienced with it. But have continuous trouble with inconsistency of this deck. My opening hand is very often flooded by lands, or my later ponder/brainstorm doesn't bring anything interesting - lands, lands, lands :-)

Second trouble - very often I have FoW without fuel. And for a second game I want often side out blue cards (stifle/daze on draw) and that means FoW has even less fuel...

Am I a bad in shuffling, or this deck is really so flooded that you have to mulligan very, very carefully and pray for a nice hands? :-)

I played 10 games with score 4:6...

mchainmail
05-08-2010, 04:08 PM
Hi,
I have trying this deck in last weeks - that means I am really not very experienced with it. But have continuous trouble with inconsistency of this deck. My opening hand is very often flooded by lands, or my later ponder/brainstorm doesn't bring anything interesting - lands, lands, lands :-)

Second trouble - very often I have FoW without fuel. And for a second game I want often side out blue cards (stifle/daze on draw) and that means FoW has even less fuel...

Am I a bad in shuffling, or this deck is really so flooded that you have to mulligan very, very carefully and prey for a nice hands? :-)

I played 10 games with score 4:6...

The blue count is rather low.

The deck is difficult to play initially, as it is similar to canadian thresh with many decisions having dramatic impact on the game (stifling, etc.)

Aleksandr
05-08-2010, 04:27 PM
Hi,
I have trying this deck in last weeks - that means I am really not very experienced with it. But have continuous trouble with inconsistency of this deck. My opening hand is very often flooded by lands, or my later ponder/brainstorm doesn't bring anything interesting - lands, lands, lands :-)

Second trouble - very often I have FoW without fuel. And for a second game I want often side out blue cards (stifle/daze on draw) and that means FoW has even less fuel...

Am I a bad in shuffling, or this deck is really so flooded that you have to mulligan very, very carefully and pray for a nice hands? :-)

I played 10 games with score 4:6...

Nice that both of us tried a new deck yesterday... :-)

So you went 2-2 on Friday? Maybe your not quite spectacular record is also due to our metagame... there are many different decks and nearly none of them is presented more than once. Namely if you're new to the deck, it could be little hard to pilot correctly.

Cya next week.

Resist_Temptation
05-08-2010, 04:57 PM
I have only spent enough time testing this deck to understand some of the weaknesses.(really the easiest way for me to figure ways to beat it.) And I have found it very difficult to pilot to win some games, but to pilot it efficiently is even more difficult. It could be due to your bad shuffling or it could also be some minor misplays that lead to buig upsets. I would have to say keep testing the deck out, and the more experience you get with it will lead to better piloting ability.

paK0
05-08-2010, 05:40 PM
The Problems described are not as bad once you get used to the deck:

23 Lands seem a lot for a Tempo deck, but Wastelands hardly make mana, Canopies cycle and more than half of the rest are Fetchlands. It works out nicely for me ;).


The blue count is a similar issue, you do run 20 spell, which is a lot, but 8 are free and the rest are only U, so they make you wanna play them earlie. Holding a Ponder/BS back seems to be correct most of the time, unless you absolutely need to dig for something. And Daze and Stifle get used less anyways as the game goes on, so they will be available as well.

Mark Sun
05-09-2010, 12:09 AM
@ paK0: I'm not sold on Spell Pierce, in my experience against Combo you need something static on the board that is continuous disruption (Counterbalance obviously is what Iím referring to, but I think a hate bear is what is needed here). ANT has too much hand disruption for an opposing deck to fully rely on countermagic alone. That said, if we were to have one, MM is the correct choice.

@ Rain: That new board looks great, Iím going to start testing Worm Harvest the next time I get a chance. I am also looking into, as an audible choice, Ground Seal for a meta with Reanimator/Loam-based/targeted recursion. I found The Rock to be absolutely terrible, as they have not only cheap removal, but strong recursion methods. I know Ground Seal doesnít solve the problem, but it does cantrip, and it does shut down Eternal Witness, Profane Command, and from our point of view, cards like Extirpate. I donít know, itís a thought.


What does everyone think of the Jace, TMS inclusion (couple of pages back)? I like it, I think it allows for a better matchup against Control and Iím thinking about -1 Ponder -1 Terravore +2 Jace, TMS. I'm getting wrecked by Humility over here, even with 4 Grip in the SB I'm getting overwhelmed by other threats on the board (probably tons of karma buildup from playing Landstill).

paK0
05-09-2010, 02:55 AM
Yeah, against Tendrils something with legs is probably correct. The thing is that both MM and EC hardly affect Reanimator and are mostly to slow for Belcher. Maybe a Split could do the trick.


Jace seems like a strong addition, however 4 mana is heavie for a tempo deck that already has most threats in the 3cc slot. I don't think he will be a stable but in a control meta he might pull his weight.

Rain
05-09-2010, 09:21 AM
@humppa
You should mul if you have 4 or more lands in your opening hand of 1st game. This deck can avoid mana flood thanks to full Brainstorms, Ponders, and Canopies. Keep your fetch lands not activated unless you need.

I think you should side out 1 or 2 FoW if you side out 4 Daze or other blue cards. For most of the matches, Krosan Grip or Tormod's Crypt are more effective than FoW. FoW without fuel is just a crap like you mentioned.

Rain
05-09-2010, 10:08 AM
@Morbid
Ground Seal is considerable if Ichorid less meta. Cantrip and protection from Extirpate seems good.
I would consider tutor boad spliting with Crypt and Wheel of Sun and Moon if I adopt Ground Seal.
I agree with your thought about MM. The continuous disruptions fit this deck. Disruptions like Spell Pierce requres open mana reduce the power of this deck I think. In addition MM can be pitched for FoW, Ethersworn Canonist can't.

@paK0
I think MM can deall with Belcher. I have defeated Belcher several times with MM in Aggro Bant deck not New Horizons. We have FoW, Daze, Stifle too.
About Reanimator, I'm sure Tormod's Crypt is far bettar.

paK0
05-09-2010, 10:45 AM
Rain:

Wel,, I don't play Belcher often so I have rather limited data, but I only seem to loose if they can do something turn 1, where MM is not present. If their first attempt to go off doesn't win the game for them they loose.

And for Reanimator I bring in Crypts + Combohate so its not MM vs Crypt but MM vs SP.

Maybe after all it comes down to a metacall.

Mono_Thematic
05-14-2010, 10:48 AM
Out of curiousity has Treasure Hunt been considered in a builid with Terravore and lots of fetchlands/cyclting-lands. Off the top of my head it'd look something like this:
4 tarmgoyf
4 terravore
3 trygon predator
4 nimble mongoose (KotR with a W splash)

4 force of will
4 treasure hunt
3 daze
3 spell pierce (StP with a W splash)
4 brainstorm

4 tropical island
4 misty rainforest
4 tranquil thicket
4 lonely sandbar
4 polluted delta
4 wasteland
3 island
1 forest

Its alot of deck space to commit to the draw engine, but the benefits of building up the GY and card-selection would seem to go a long way.
Like I said, I'm mainly just curious if its been considered,
-Mono

paK0
05-14-2010, 12:09 PM
This looks a lot more like Bant-Loam than New Horizons. Loam goes better with stuff like that than Treasure Hunt.

This list is truly not NH anymore^^.

Rain
05-17-2010, 08:00 AM
I finished 5-2, 9th or 10th place in the tournament 83 people in attendance, Tokyo Japan.

list I played
Md
4 misty rainforest
4 windswept heath
3 tropical island
3 tundra
4 horizon canopy
1 forest
4 wasteland
4 tarmogoyf
4 knight of the reliquary
3 terravore
4 ponder
4 swords to plowshares
4 brainstorm
4 stifle
4 daze
4 force of will
2 engineered explosives
Sb
1 bojuka bog
1 worm harvest
2 blue elemental blast
3 krosan grip
4 tormods crypt
2 engineered explosives
2 crucible of world


Round1 Aggro Bant(He played goyf,RWM,KotR,scryb ranger,StP,daze,FoW)
game1 draw, no mul. EEed his Goyf and Ranger, EEed his KotR, then my Goyf beat him down.

sideboard: -4 daze, -1 fow, -1 forest, +2 ee, +2 cow, +1 grip, +1 bojuka
game2 nomul. double Goyfs beat him down.

Round2 Combo Survival(Reveillark, Karmic Guide)
game1 draw, 1 mul. double KotR did.
2-0

sideboard: -4 daze, -1 fow, -1 stp, -1 forest, +3 grip, + 2 ee, +2 crypt, +1 bojuka (I thought 2 Crypts were enough because

of my Stifles and StPs,)
game2 1 mul and kept not good hand. He went off.

sideboard: -2 ee, +2 daze
game3 no mul. Stifled his envoked Reveillark, then my KotR and Goyf beat him down.
2-1

Round3 Merfolk
game1 draw, no mul. kept my Wasteland and KotR restraining his island walk. nothing happend.

sideboard: -2 daze, +2 ee (I want to leave some daze for blue counts if I can. and I dont rely on Grip for Vial)
game2 no mul. don't remember.
2-0

Round4 Merfolk
dont remember
2-0

Round5 Control Bant (winner of this tournament)
his list was
1 forest 4 wasteland 3 tropical island 3 tundra 4 rainforest 4 heath 2 stirring wildwood
2 vendilion 4 noble hierarch 4 KotR 4 goyf
2 jace tms 4 stp 4 fow 4 stifle 4 bs 4 ponder 3 daze

3 crypt 1 bojuka 3 spell pierce 3 grip 3 ee 2 pithing needle

game1 draw, no mul. I misunderstood he played Bant Survival. I wasted my StP to his Hierarch and made a fatal mistake, played Daze paying 2 mana tapping out to his KotR tapping out, of cource Dazed my Daze.

sideboard: -3 fow, +2 cow, +1 bojuka (I didn't out Forest thinking I needed a basic land.)
game2 no mul. cleared his permanents.

sideboard: -3 daze, +3 fow
game3 no mul. stacked 3 lands several turns. I played 2 KotR against his 2 Goyfs. He played Jace, tried bouncing my KotR, but I stifled. KotR killed the Jace and added Terravore holding another Terravore in hand. Next turn he played EE for 3, I didn't have any disruption spell.
1-2

Round6 ANT (6th place of this tournament)
game1 play, no mul. He went off from 11 life.

sideboard: -2 terravore, +2 cow
game2 no mul. FoWed his Ad. Goyf finished him.

game3 no mul. 4th turn of extra (his last turn), he played Ad from 11 life. My Canopy brought FoW, but I let the Ad resolved because he couldn't win unless he would draw both hand disruption and Mystical Tutor (I had StP in hand, Goyf in play). He got enough cards leaving 3 life.
1-2

Round7 Goblin
don't remember.
sideboard: -2 daze, +2 beb
2-0

paK0
05-17-2010, 02:07 PM
Deck seems to be putting up some numbers =).

Yesterday was monthly Iserlohn, I piloted the deck to a 4-2 (punted 1 game, 5-1 would have been the score for the deck if it was not for me being stupid) to a 15th place while another NH Deck won the tournament (splitting the finals)

ImpinAintEasy
05-17-2010, 02:36 PM
It is also seeing play in the online meta. I've been messing around with it for the last several days and it has some seriously awesome long term potential imo. It might be slowly positioning itself as the future replacement for UGR Thresh which seems to have gone by the wayside.

ju bboy
05-18-2010, 11:57 AM
my last list:

// Lands
1 [ZEN] Forest (1)
2 [R] Tundra
2 [R] Tropical Island
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [U] Savannah
1 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
2 [OD] Terravore
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage

// Spells
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
3 [NE] Daze

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 3 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 3 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [PS] Meddling Mage

i finished 9th to GP lyon legacy side event (144 players) with 6 win and 2 loose. i win vs 3 UGR thresh (one in top 8), 1 rock, 1 imperial painter, 1 dragon stompy and loose vs ANT (top 8) and elf aggro/progenitus (top 8).

and i finish 26 to Bazar of Moxen (498 players) with 7 win and 2 loose. i win vs 2 gobelin, 1 brown stax, 1 ANT, 1 eva green, 1 dreadstill and i loose vs 1 pox and 1 dreadstill (top 8).

Rain
05-18-2010, 10:42 PM
In Japan, many players like controlish decks that can't be called New Horizons or decks focus on late game though those decks have Terravore and Horizon Canopy.
The lists of the winner, 2nd place, 8th place in my last tournament 83 players attended are below

winner
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Stirring Wildwood
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Daze

Sideboard
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Spell Pierce
3 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Pithing Needle


2nd place
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
1 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Path to Exile
2 Spell Snare
1 Oblivion Ring

Sideboard
3 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
3 Dueling Grounds
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Wasteland


8th place
4 Windwept Heath
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Terravore
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

sideboard
4 Krosan Grip
2 Path to Exile
2 Wash Out
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Crucible of Worlds



I don't like Vendlilion because it works almost nothing against fast aggro decks. In addition, the legend requires double blue mana from the deck contains KotR, early Tarmogoyf and StP.
I don't think Noble Hierarch is also necessary. New Horizons don't need mana acceleration, and this deck has cards that can be casted in the beginning two or three turns without the acceleration.
I think I would hate the mana machine when I top deck or Brainstorm that in the middle of the game.

Anyway, I need to be prepared for fighting against control elements especially Jace.

I think Meddling Mage would be answer.
This mage can stop not only Jace, but also StP, KotR. They don't have Terravore while we have this monster.
We can also call FoW with the Mage after boarding FoW out for some special cards.
I think the Mage works also in mirror match needless to say about combo match up.

Mark Sun
05-18-2010, 11:01 PM
I don't like Vendlilion because it works almost nothing against fast aggro decks. In addition, the legend requires double blue mana from the deck contains KotR, early Tarmogoyf and StP.
I don't think Noble Hierarch is also necessary. New Horizons don't need mana acceleration, and this deck has cards that can be casted in the beginning two or three turns without the acceleration.
I think I would hate the mana machine when I top deck or Brainstorm that in the middle of the game.

Anyway, I need to be prepared for fighting against control elements especially Jace.

I agree that Noble Hierarch is not necessary. It's good in Bant Aggro, etc, when you need to win in the red zone and it makes your creatures that much bigger than an opponent's (ie., double-Exalted Tarmogoyf). But the creatures in this deck are already big themselves; Tarmogoyf sometimes looks tiny compared to, say, a late-game Terravore g1.

Now, I tested Jace, TMS in this list. For the same logic of double blue that you said about Vendilion Clique, it doesn't feel like the right fit, and it costs one more. Against aggro / creature-base decks, it was annoying and I found myself wanting to pitch it to FoW quite a few times. On the other hand, I had a chance to play against a U/W based control deck (similar to Landstill, but not quite).

Much, much better, and we can use the mana denial plan with Wasteland + Stifle and extra counters (Landstill-ish doesn't run Daze) to help get our Jace, TMS out there before theirs. I'm pretty sure that matters little, though, since U/W Control really isn't commonly played anymore. I have yet to see Ultimate Walker, and I haven't encountered any Landstill players in a while. Worth it or no? It looks like I'm going to the Philadelphia 5K on June 6th, so I'll get a shot to play this deck in a wide-open metagame. Until then, back to the locals I go.

Svenanole
05-19-2010, 12:39 AM
I'm thinking of playing this deck, one question though-

what are its weaknesses? It seems to be have a good game vs midrange decks, but how does it do vs combo and blisterly fast aggro decks?

five
05-19-2010, 12:44 AM
I have been trying this deck for a couple weeks now and have had huge success. In four tournaments, I have gotten first place three times and fourth place once. Mind you that these are all small local tournaments (8-14 players), but these are still impressive results for me. My other decks are Zoo, u/g Merfolk, and u/g/r Tempo Thresh. I have gotten first place a total of five times with those decks in these same tournaments, and that took months!

Part of my success is that this is a newer deck and it may catch people by surprise. I love the look on people's face when they read Terravore for the first time. With that being said, I think my opponents have reacted with appropriate strategies when attempting to combat this deck. Swords to Plowshares and Relic of Progenitus are some of the most troublesome cards I have encountered.

In matches played, my record is 15-2-2 combined from the 4 tournaments. The 2 losses came against a u/w Merfolk deck. Swords and an islandwalking army made that an unfavorable match for sure. I also had trouble with a MUC deck that could can easily draw multiple Relics post board. We drew after two games in the tourney, but he beat me when we played for fun later.

Here is the list I am currently using:

2 Engineered Explosives

4 Knight Of The Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Terravore

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force Of Will
4 Stifle
4 Swords To Plowshares
4 Ponder

1 Forest
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Meddling Mage
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Engineered Explosives

Rain mentioned the use of Meddling Mage in a previous post and I must recommend it. MM totally beat 43 Lands when I named Life from the Loam. It could also be used against Relic, although the Grips work okay too. While playing on the draw against Pro Bant, I wanted to take out my Dazes and Explosives. In came the 3 Grips of course, but I brought in the Mages to keep up my blue count for Force. MM named Natural Order (probably should have been Top or Swords) and was an extra beater. I am sure I could have used him in other matches and just didn't think of it.

Anyways, I warn naysayers to take this deck seriously. It is better than it looks on paper. Much better.

jeanbathez
05-19-2010, 03:18 AM
Anyway, I need to be prepared for fighting against control elements especially Jace.

I think Meddling Mage would be answer.
This mage can stop not only Jace, but also StP, KotR. They don't have Terravore while we have this monster.
We can also call FoW with the Mage after boarding FoW out for some special cards.
I think the Mage works also in mirror match needless to say about combo match up.

Wouldn't Pithing Needle also be an answer ? And it can be used on fetchlands, and other nasty things, too. I'am not sure if it is better than Meddling Mage, both cards have their uses...
I think that Meddling Mage is better in this deck, but depending on your meta it can be good, too.

paK0
05-19-2010, 06:45 AM
On battling Planeswalkers: I settled for Spell Pierce in the Board and never looked back. Together with the mana denial I think this should be enough to stop them. But if you want additional answears I would also say Pithing Needle.

@Svenanole: This deck does not have any unwinnable matchups, but there are no freewins either. Sligh decks can be troublesome and likewise heavie Control Decks can have the anti-draw to yours. The rest is pretty much even or slightly in your favour, depending on how your board is built.


And yeah, this deck is very close to a T1 Deck, it does everything Canadian does, just better. But I think part of that is the semi-rouge factor. Right now there are a few amazing results, once more people pick the Deck up (so other people start to worry about it) the results will be much more over the place.

Oh and I recommend everyone to pick up foreign language Terravores, quite a few people forget about the Trample^^.

Rain
05-19-2010, 11:13 AM
Now I like MM than SP in this deck though I know SP is strong in aggro or tempo decks and have been producing good results.

Against combo, I want to play my threats as soon as possible, and want to activate Wasteland immediately. This causes tapping out my lands. Maybe my play is incorrect.
Against control, I want to stop StP rather than Planeswalker in early game.

Pithing Needle is also considerable. Needle can stop Planeswalker, Vial, SDT, at least fetchland or Relic.
I think Pithing Needles on SDT against Counter Top and on Vial against Merfolk bring us easy win.

I would exchange Misty Rainforest and Windswept Heath for Wooded Foothills and Verdant Catacombs if I put Piting Needle in my sideboard.

Svenanole
05-19-2010, 02:24 PM
Has back to basics ever been a problem card?

five
05-19-2010, 03:23 PM
Has back to basics ever been a problem card?

I don't think B2B is any more of a problem for this deck than any other deck that runs non-basics. At least we have KotR to cycle out those tapped lands and bring in something new. I think Blood Moon would be much more devistating to this deck.

Another problem card I forgot about is Perish. More and more people are running it to deal with Progenitus, but it hits every creature in this deck too. It may be worth sandbagging a creature if your opponent is playing black. I have seen a couple Reanimator decks with Perish in their board lately.

paK0
05-19-2010, 04:28 PM
Now I like MM than SP in this deck though I know SP is strong in aggro or tempo decks and have been producing good results.

Against combo, I want to play my threats as soon as possible, and want to activate Wasteland immediately. This causes tapping out my lands. Maybe my play is incorrect.


Honestly, if it were just for the Combo MU, MM would be my go to card as well. But I really like the flexibility of SP. MM is ok in a lot of Matchups but SP hits everything while MM just the key cards (which is still great obv.)

inside88
05-19-2010, 06:45 PM
my last list:

// Lands
1 [ZEN] Forest (1)
2 [R] Tundra
2 [R] Tropical Island
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [U] Savannah
1 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
2 [OD] Terravore
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage

// Spells
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
3 [NE] Daze

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 3 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 3 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [PS] Meddling Mage

i finished 9th to GP lyon legacy side event (144 players) with 6 win and 2 loose. i win vs 3 UGR thresh (one in top 8), 1 rock, 1 imperial painter, 1 dragon stompy and loose vs ANT (top 8) and elf aggro/progenitus (top 8).

and i finish 26 to Bazar of Moxen (498 players) with 7 win and 2 loose. i win vs 2 gobelin, 1 brown stax, 1 ANT, 1 eva green, 1 dreadstill and i loose vs 1 pox and 1 dreadstill (top 8).

i play the classic list of Dave in BOM4, i finish 70 with 6-3,

R1: 2-1 Zoo
R2: 1-2 ANT
R3: 2-0 Reanimator
R4: 2-0 Zoo
R5: 2-1 Prison White
R6: 1-2 AggroLoam
R7: 0-2 Merfolk
R8: 2-0 Reanimator
R9: 2-1 Zoo

my sideboard :
1 Bojuka bog
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 RWM
3 Krosan grip
3 Tormods crypt
1 Engineered explosives
2 crucible of world
2 Submerge

2 submerge is incredible in the sideboard !

i like your list "ju bbo" more control of the original list ! what is you thinking about Jace in the list ?

Svenanole
05-20-2010, 01:01 AM
what are engineered explosives used for?

edit: just played some games and found out why

G1- Smashed face with Goyf and Knight (Should have lost this game, he misplayed his dredges, dazed his troll to seal it)
G2- Hand was EE, TC, TC, Misty Rainforest, Daze and Force (drop all three and he quits)

Played against enchantress
G1- 11/11 KoTR gets there along with three forces/2 dazes
G2- MM naming sigil of the Empty Throne

Merfolk with Coralhelm/Spellstutter (my friend took my list)
G1- Swarmed by fish
G2- Laid an early KoTR down, hes got nothing, submerges in response to fetch, drop gotf, He gets a LoA, and Coralhelm down. Successfully bait out spellstutter with StP on coralhelm. Swing with goyf, lay down/blast EE. Next turn drop Terravore.
G3- Comes out way to fast, get me to low life. Blast EE, drop Knight as a blocker. Has lethal lined up with silvergil, LoA, mutavault. StP LoA, block the gill, tap and get a wasteland, wasteland the vaunt. I two strikes with Knight and its over.
*note- my list is nowhere near the traditional merfolk list because im running a but ton of 2cc permanents*

five
05-20-2010, 02:33 AM
what are engineered explosives used for?

edit: just played some games and found out why

G1- Smashed face with Goyf and Knight (Should have lost this game, misplayed the dredge hugely, dazed his troll to seal it)
G2- Hand was EE, TC, TC, Misty Rainforest, Daze and Force (drop all three and he quits)

Played against enchantress
G1- 11/11 KoTR gets there along with three forces/2 dazes
G2- MM naming sigil of the Empty Throne

Merfolk with Coralhelm/Spellstutter (my friend took my list)
G1- Swarmed by fish
G2- Laid an early KoTR down, hes got nothing, submerges in response to fetch, drop gotf, He gets a LoA, and Coralhelm down. Successfully bait out spellstutter with StP on coralhelm. Swing with goyf, lay down/blast EE. Next turn drop Terravore.
G3- Comes out way to fast, get me to low life. Blast EE, drop Knight as a blocker. Has lethal lined up with silvergil, LoA, mutavault. StP LoA, block the gill, tap and get a wasteland, wasteland the vaunt. I two strikes with Knight and its over.
*note- my list is nowhere near the traditional merfolk list because im running a but ton of 2cc permanents*

EE provides us with answers we normally wouldn't have :cool:

ImpinAintEasy
05-20-2010, 12:46 PM
I played a version of this list online in an event last night. Granted there was only 16 players, but I went 4-0 (8-2). Our meta is different than that of paper. Right now the top decks are Goblins, Reanimator, Landstill, Death and Taxes, Dredge and Zoo.

Lands (22)
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Horizon Canopy
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas

Creatures (11)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Terravore

Spells (27)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce - (I cut the 4x Daze from the original list because they felt meh to me during testing. The tempo loss sucked in a field full of landstill)
2 Spell Snare
2 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard (15)
3 Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip
3 Meddling Mage
1 Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Faerie Macabre

Sorry I don't have a huge tournament write up, but here are a few of my notes.

Round 1 vs. TheBizzar - Death and Taxes W 2-1
Lost game one to a jitte equipped Flickerwisp

Round 2 vs. Condescend - Merfolk W 2-0
Game one he kept a one lander, wasteland owned him
Game two triple vial doesn't help when you have no creatures, rough draws for him, plus Knights rock the house!

Round 3. vs FishyFellow - Rogue with Winter Orb/Propaganda/Jace Berlen W 2-1

Round 4 vs. Morgan_Coke - Astral Slide W 2-0
I did get some nice draws with the counters, BUT this match proves that pierce was a hero compared to Daze.

Still not sure about stifle MD or snares. I did side in Meddling Mage a lot, almost wonder if it shouldn't be tried maindeck.

Mark Sun
05-20-2010, 02:28 PM
I went to a local last night (really rough metagame, T3 was Doran Rock, Goblins, and Lands). The Kira, Great Glass-Spinner plan did not turn out so great. I look soon to have a Tabernacle in the mix for my SB, tribal/fast aggro seems to give this deck problems, and while I can accept a bad matchup against combo, I certainly don't expect to be a pushover to the aforementioned. Quick breakdown:

R1 (0-1): Doran Rock, really odd deck, but had enough Thoughtseize/Path to Exile/Maelstrom Pulse to rip me apart. No StP, which ironically made PtE a lot stronger (1 Forest in the MD), as he took me down fast. I StP'ed 2 Doran, and he rips a third. Oh, and maindeck Ensnaring Bridge. Really wasn't prepared for this matchup. /facepalm

R2 (0-2): Mono-R Goblins. G1 is fine, as a huge Terravore takes the win. Things get rough g2 & g3 when he brings in Relic and I don't have Stifle to stop both his Ringleader and Relic. He swarms me g2, and g3 he plays t1 Relic, and on top I don't draw enough dudes to compete in this game. Really needed a Tabernacle out of the board to slow the bleeding, EE alone didn't really get there. Keeping me off of 3 colors of pretty good too.

R3 (1-2): I'm in the basement. Bye.

R4 (2-2): The Gate. Should have been a rough matchup, I lose g1 because of a ton of Vampire Nighthawks, and I can't do anything but sit there and get crushed by Smothers, Innocent Bloods, all that good stuff that they run. g2 & g3, I get slowed down by a Dystopia, but he draws only spot removal and I Jace him out of the game. I repeat my plan for g3, sandbagging a Jace with a Brainstorm when he took the other one with Thoughtseize.

R5 (2-3): Excalibur. I win g1 easily with the mana denial plan, drop a Terravore who is 13/13. I then proceed to get blown out g2 when I don't have enough removal to get rid of his Mind-Control effects, as he brings in 2 Sower and 4 Mind Harness. g3 is a litte closer, but the game ends when I've wasted my non-creature removal on his mind control effects, managed to get 2 giant KotR in play, but his triple-exalted Spellstutter Sprite gets there, while my mana denial plan does nothing.

I followed Rain's original boarding plans (in general), so I don't think that was it. Probably still more the player than the deck at this point. I really wanted to try the deck against more Tier 1's, as the tournament was 10-proxy, but it's unfortunate that I didn't et a chance.

Chubu!
05-20-2010, 02:59 PM
R4 (2-2): The Gate

I was the pilot of The Gate for this matchup, and have to say that Jace, TMS was huge. He creates virtual card advantage vs. decks that run non-red spot removal, by providing a win-con that doesn't rely on the red zone. I have never piloted a New Horizons build, so I do not profess to be knowledgeable on the strategy of the deck, but did want to offer my 2 cents. I nailed you with about every piece of hand disruption my deck packs (which is substantial), nuked absolutely every single last duder you played, got only one (or was it two?) spells forced in the entire match, and still you won soundly. Why? Two reasons. 1. Jace 2. Spot removal to protect Jace, when they aggro pressure got heavy. Looking at the match solely in terms of plays, I would say I would have won. My deck did everything it is supposed to do. Your alternate win-con got you there. Well played, sir.

Basically, where I am going with this is: I expected to win this. I like decks that win with a few fatties in the red zone. They are generally fun... for me to poop on. Having a plan B was hot sauce, and I think Jace TMS may be, at the very least, a good consideration for the sideboard.

And I will continue to run The Gate. My (adopted) baby got slapped around bad last night, but I still love her. :)

jimirynk
05-21-2010, 03:06 PM
What does worm harvest come in versus?

paK0
05-21-2010, 03:28 PM
What does worm harvest come in versus?

Countertop mostly.

Svenanole
05-22-2010, 01:51 AM
How has Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale been working out for everyone? I don't have one so I would like to know before i shell out the cash to pick one up.

supachai
05-22-2010, 04:48 AM
Hey guys, so I'm thinking about picking up this deck and I did some testing today.
Daze always felt very awkward. We don't generally play creatures during the first few turns so its tempo advantage is pretty useless. I've found Spell Pierce to catch people off guard a little more and can be more relevant late game. What're your guys's opinions? I like the 4 Goyf, 4 Knight, 3 Vore creature suite, it seems just right. I really liked seeing Engineered Explosives and I've upped the count to three- I think this deck needs a bit more removal and Explosives serves the role well.
What do people think about adding a singleton Academy Runes to create a softlock with Explosives? It can potentially be fetched out with Knight. Also, what is the generally accepted land count for New Horizons? I'm currently running 24, with a lone basic Island. Perhaps a basic Forest would be more useful?
EDIT: another thing I've noticed. There is not enough blue in the deck to support Force. As many people have already mentioned, I've often found myself with a Force and no card to pitch to it.
Anyways, I'm really liking the deck and its always lots of fun to bash in with huge Vores and Knights.

Rain
05-22-2010, 08:02 AM
@supachai

Increasing EE is an attractive idea.

I don't think Academy Ruins fits this deck. I think one-time explosion is enough to win. Recurring EE seems to be redundant.

I'm sure basic Forest is more important than basic Island. The importance of basics are : Forest > Plains > Island. Creatures needed to win the game in this deck require green, double green, green and white. Green are consistently needed but turn1. On the other hand, Island or blue are needed turn1 for Stifle or when needed for Srifle, Daze, Brainstorm, Ponder, third color for EE.

I have rarely felt the blue count is low. Don't waste Ponder and Brainstorm. I keep the manipulation spells for the time I would need threats, removals, disruptions. Sometimes, with FoW the blue cards help me not to lose the game.

supachai
05-22-2010, 04:32 PM
The build I was using last night only ran a counter suite of 4 Force, 3 Daze, 3 Spell Pierce. How helpful is Stifle in the deck? I have Merfolk and I used to play Stifle main but I feel like everyone just knows how to play around it too often for it to be useful.

Rain
05-23-2010, 04:30 AM
@supachai

You are right, it has become harder to grasp the opponents with Stifle especially we are on the draw. Nevertheless I'm happy the opponents would do slow deployment being carefully not to be Stifled.

paK0
05-24-2010, 04:30 AM
@Svenanole:
I don't like Tabernacle. It would be best in tribal Matchups, but thei are usually Monocoloured (Or contain only a light Splash) so Manadenial is hard to accomplis. It is still decent, but I think you are better off giving the slot/s to something else.

I got 3rd in a 91 tournament yesterday, loosing once to Merfolk (bad Matchup) and semis to Bantsurvival. I used the usual list and the following board:
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [EVE] Worm Harvest
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile

Deck felt awesome, as always^^.

fdiv_bug
05-24-2010, 10:06 AM
Just wanted to drop my two cents on the mana base, specifically with regard to basics. I've been running this:

4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Horizon Canopy
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland

and have been extremely happy. The only change I made from the "stock" mana base was to replace one of the Tundras with a Plains. The reasoning behind this was I always wanted to be able to cast either Swords to Plowshares or Krosan Grip in order to get rid of opposing moon effects, and to be able to bring any of my win conditions to bear (except Terravore) if he does manage to get one to stick around.

paK0: `Grats on the very decent finish. I like the look of your board a lot.

Jak
05-24-2010, 10:14 AM
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Horizon Canopy
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland


I think you really want an Island. Under a Wastelock, you are better off having that than a Plains, because the Island allows you to dig for an out. Under a Moon is the same way. I think you can cut a Canopy or do what I did and just run with 24 Lands.

Rain
05-24-2010, 11:20 AM
Congrats paK0.
I want to know how you feel about Life from the Loam.
It's a mana eater while it has good synergies with Worm Harvest and creatures in this deck.

fdiv_bug
05-24-2010, 11:50 AM
I think you really want an Island. Under a Wastelock, you are better off having that than a Plains, because the Island allows you to dig for an out. Under a Moon is the same way. I think you can cut a Canopy or do what I did and just run with 24 Lands.

I had considered cutting a Canopy for the additional basic. What outs would you be digging for, though? Chain of Vapor? Or am I completely misunderstanding?

paK0
05-24-2010, 12:16 PM
Congrats paK0.
I want to know how you feel about Life from the Loam.
It's a mana eater while it has good synergies with Worm Harvest and creatures in this deck.


It wasn't bad but not overwhelming either. I tested it together with Worm Harvest for the control Matchups and it was a solid performer.

The meta over here is kinda fast, so I think I gotta drop the Worm Harvest. I'm not sure weather I want to keep Loam in after WH is gone (this was my reason to include it anyway). Sry I'm not much of a help, but I will let you know weather there are better cards for this slot once I'm done testing.

five
05-24-2010, 02:33 PM
Well, sorry to be a downer but I gotta post a seriously terrible tournament report. I'll try to keep it as short and painless as possible. The tournament was 8 people and the meta was fairly casual. Other decks besides my NH were: u/g Merfolk, Suicide Black, Survival Elves, Borros aggro, Spike Weaver combo, Squirrles, and possibly Stasis(?).

Round 1 Spike Weaver combo.
Game 1 I wasted my only Daze on a mana dork. I figured he was coming out of Daze range and I was going to put his creature in the 'yard for Goyf. Next turn he played Doubling Season (which I could have Dazed). That was all he really needed to start comboing out. Game 2 I maybe should have sided out my Wastelands since it appeared he was playing all basics. Instead, I sided out only 1 Wasteland and 2 Explosives for 3 Grips. Well my Explosives would have wiped out his chumps for Goyf. Instead, he was able to fly over for the win.

Round 2 Squirrls
I made a huge mistake by shuffling away Explosives with Ponder (it appeared I would be to mana flooded at the time). Next turn he plays his first squirrl token and I face palm. He plays many more as the game goes on and begins chipping away at me. I should have scooped because games 2/3 would have been easy with 4 Explosives in my deck. When I finally drew explosives again, all it did was prolong my suffering. I eventually lose to a Jitte equipped flying Squirrl. We don't have time for game 2 :frown:

Round 3 u/g Merfolk
I am excited that my Wastelands and Stifles may prove useful finally! They do, as during the first game I Waste 2 Mutavults and swing through with a well fed Knight. I keep a shakey hand game 2, hoping to shuffle away excess lands after Brainstorm + fetch. He counters Brainstorm, and I am super mana flooded. He quickly overwhelms me. Game 3 drags on due to a Goyf stand off. He also Needles Knight. I eventually get good position with Goyf, Knight, Terravore, and 2 Swords for his Goyfs. Unfortunately we are low on time and he is at like 33 life after the Swords. I do 20 something damage before we go to time.

Yeah, it sucks to lose to decks like Spike Weaver and Squirrls. It was mostly due to the poor choices I made as well. I feel like I could easily take either of those decks again. Not being able to Waste/Stifle does limit the size of Knight and 'Vore though. I would have totally crushed Merfolk if I had one more turn, no joke. Silly that the two most expensive decks there tied for last place :tongue: Suicide Black and Borros split for 1st btw.

fdiv_bug
05-24-2010, 03:30 PM
It sucks that you had a rough time, but thanks for posting the report at least.


I eventually lose to a Jitte equipped flying Squirrl.

Man. There oughtta be a trophy for that, or something. :tongue:

jimirynk
05-24-2010, 04:44 PM
The build I was using last night only ran a counter suite of 4 Force, 3 Daze, 3 Spell Pierce. How helpful is Stifle in the deck? I have Merfolk and I used to play Stifle main but I feel like everyone just knows how to play around it too often for it to be useful.

Stifles games 2/3 can stop your opponents crypts/ relics, which can be a blow out.

But I've found a hard time finding cards to side out..

In zoo and folk I've been boarding out daze for 2 e.e. 2 rwm, I don't know if I should be boarding diffrent.

For refrence here is the list I'm playing:

1 Forest
3 Tropical island
3 Tundra
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty rainforest
4 wasteland
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshars
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Daze
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Terravore
4 Force of Will
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Tormod’s Crypt
4 Krosan Grip
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Rhox War Monk
1 Worm Harvest
2 Crucible of worlds

Should I be boarding in K-grip vs. folk?
Does anyone have a list of way's to board vs. other matchup's?

Mark Sun
05-24-2010, 04:53 PM
Rain posted some boarding plans from his list on page 4, then on page 5 (the link stuff is buggy, often it'll just lead to the first page again). Those are pretty good references.

That's also what I board out for Zoo/Merfolk, on the draw I side in FoW and Daze out.

Jak
05-24-2010, 06:35 PM
I had considered cutting a Canopy for the additional basic. What outs would you be digging for, though? Chain of Vapor? Or am I completely misunderstanding?

More lands/basics, graveyard hate, EE, a creature, etc.

Svenanole
05-25-2010, 12:40 AM
Standard 60 card mainboard (thinking of changing a ponder out for a bant charm)

Sideboard
2 EE
3 Crypt
1 Bog
3 Grip
3 Submerge
2 Mage
1 llawan, cephalid empress

Federicus
05-25-2010, 02:42 AM
I've done 2 of 70 (two weeks ago) and 3 of 60 yestarday with this deck.
My list is similar to the david price one, my SB is:

3x krosan grip
1x bojuka
2x hydroblast
2x crucible
3x meddling mage
2x ee
2x tormod's

I've lost 2 match total:
1) ant
2) zoo

I also think i will include 2 pact of exile in sb instead of the 2 hydroblast (if i do so i will include 1 plain for the magus), i will also remove the 2 tormod's for 1 more bojuka and 1 worm.
Sooner or later i will put 3 oblivion rings (the meta here is filling of emrakul decks).

I am actually testing 1 elspeth main deck and i wish to know what do you think about.
Main reasons of the cards: very good vs pox/mbc decks (it is like 8 less removal for him) and it can give your knight the elusive ability needed to oneshot the opponent (and it is not gy dependant).

kusumoto
05-25-2010, 01:20 PM
Has anyone tested Strategic Planning in this deck? I noticed people mentioning Life from the Loam. Dredge seems unreliable in a deck that uses so many things it doesn't want in the graveyard. I know you want some lands in the yard, and I think Strategic Planning accomplishes that, while still replacing itself. It also pitches to force. I think I will try throwing together some build of this deck using Strategic to use in a small tournament this weekend. I think it could work nicely.

Thoughts on that?

paK0
05-25-2010, 01:24 PM
Thats sounds mostly like an awful Ponder, but knock yourself out if you want =).

And the great thing about Loam is that it gets more than 1 Card (Cards advantage) is reusable and lets you reuse cards. Strategic Planning accomplishes none of these.

kusumoto
05-25-2010, 01:46 PM
I would be running it in addition to Ponder. The bad thing about Loam is when it puts threats into your graveyard. Strategic would be much less likely to do that and it would still get lands in your graveyard. Even though Loam technically produces card advantage, it's basically cutting you off of real threats while it's doing that.

...and Strategic still pitches to Force. I'll try it out and see how it feels.

Antonius
05-25-2010, 02:29 PM
I have my own build, where I experiment with running Steppe Lynx. I haven't played enough games to come to any definitive conclusions, but so far I like it. When it comes down early, it exerts tremendous pressure. Has anyone else experimented with it? I'm running 4 of them. I cut terravore to make room. I've also been running spell snare.

fdiv_bug
05-25-2010, 03:30 PM
I cut terravore to make room.

I wouldn't cut Terravore for anything; it's such a powerhouse in here it's not even funny. I was playing this in an event a week or two ago, and a spectator looked at my board position and pointed out that Tarmogoyf was the worst creature in the deck, standing next to gigantic Terravores and Knights. That's just terrifying. :tongue: And that's not to say that Tarmogoyf is bad, by any means! The `vore just ruins dreams and wins games, and I don't know that I would count on Steppe Lynx to do either of those things as effectively.

paK0
05-25-2010, 03:47 PM
Yep Terravore is insane.

And I noticed the same thing about Tarmogoyf for quite some time. He is more counter/removal bait than anything.

jimirynk
05-25-2010, 04:35 PM
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Horizon Canopy
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Forest
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland

I put a MD Karakas to blow out Iona in the re animator MU.
Has anyone tested this or have thoughts on it?

Also, what is this decks hardest mu's?

paK0
05-25-2010, 04:59 PM
There is no need for Karakas. This deck crushes Reanimator, so adding specific hate seems like a waste of slots.

Merfolk is kind of an uphill battle and is very hard to win if you loose the die roll. ANT is hard preboard, but with 4 SP it gets ok, so overall maybe a little under 50%. Aggro Loam isn't pretty as well. Hardcore Control decks are not good, but luckily they are practically nonexistent.

LOurs
05-26-2010, 06:16 AM
I really enjoy this deck and I am playing it a lot. It is pretty strong, very versatile and really enjoyable to play. That said, in my experience, the Landstill match up is really hard for this deck. What are your game plans to deal with Landstill ?
I tried different SB options : needle (to deal with jace mainly but also to slow top and manlands), meddling (often a nice tempo gain), bounce spells (providing often a nice delay) and CoW to implemant a LD/card advantage engine with waste&canopy.
I probably miss some useful cards and I would be very interested in finding more solution to make the landstill MU easier.

Federicus
05-26-2010, 10:15 AM
I really enjoy this deck and I am playing it a lot. It is pretty strong, very versatile and really enjoyable to play. That said, in my experience, the Landstill match up is really hard for this deck. What are your game plans to deal with Landstill ?
I tried different SB options : needle (to deal with jace mainly but also to slow top and manlands), meddling (often a nice tempo gain), bounce spells (providing often a nice delay) and CoW to implemant a LD/card advantage engine with waste&canopy.
I probably miss some useful cards and I would be very interested in finding more solution to make the landstill MU easier.

Landstill is a very bad matchup for us, the only card i found ok vs landstill was gaddok teeg (it stops all the plainswalker, moat, wrath, force, decree)

fdiv_bug
05-26-2010, 11:25 AM
Landstill is a very bad matchup for us, the only card i found ok vs landstill was gaddok teeg (it stops all the plainswalker, moat, wrath, force, decree)

Yeah, I was thinking about Teeg a bit, myself. He shuts off our Force of Wills and Engineered Explosives, which may or may not be worth it. I've not yet tested against Landstill, so I can't really say whether or not he'd be the right call to make.

Svenanole
05-26-2010, 11:27 AM
dueling grounds is amazing sideboard card

fdiv_bug
05-26-2010, 12:08 PM
dueling grounds is amazing sideboard card

Against what, regular aggro (Zoo, Goblins, Merfolk, etc)? I could see that.

LOurs
05-26-2010, 12:25 PM
dueling grounds could be situationaly effective vs aggro but I am not sure that card is really needed in new horizon, it is not like the deck didnt already have what it needs to deal with aggro decks ...

As for gaddock, I have to test it : the idea is nice but it also blocks some of your key control cards (EE a.k.a. the "allstar removal of the deck" at the top and FoW as well).


There is also a card I am curious to test as a 1/2 of, on SB or MD i dont know : armaggedon. It could be stupid as the spell is also pretty situational and slow, but once a knight or a terra hits the ground, the ability to destroy all the lands, cutting the opponent response and pumping your own creature at a winning level sounds sweet ...

fdiv_bug
05-26-2010, 01:03 PM
There is also a card I am curious to test as a 1/2 of, on SB or MD i dont know : armaggedon. It could be stupid as the spell is also pretty situational and slow, but once a knight or a terra hits the ground, the ability to destroy all the lands, cutting the opponent response and pumping your own creature at a winning level sounds sweet ...

I think Armageddon has a lot of potential to be quite devastating in this deck, especially against Lands. I don't know how hard that matchup is for us, but I'd imagine it'd basically make your Terravores and Knights lethal right then and there when cast during your first main phase.

I've also been trying to tune up a more recent take on Terrageddon that's basically New Horizons minus blue, with some additional locks and Armageddon, so I'm definitely interested in how the card could work out here.

mchainmail
05-26-2010, 01:06 PM
I think Armageddon has a lot of potential to be quite devastating in this deck, especially against Lands. I don't know how hard that matchup is for us, but I'd imagine it'd basically make your Terravores and Knights lethal right then and there when cast during your first main phase.

I've also been trying to tune up a more recent take on Terrageddon that's basically New Horizons minus blue, with some additional locks and Armageddon, so I'm definitely interested in how the card could work out here.

Go and get 4 mana against Lands and come back and talk to me, especially while paying for tabernacle.

Svenanole
05-26-2010, 01:54 PM
dueling grounds could be situationaly effective vs aggro but I am not sure that card is really needed in new horizon, it is not like the deck didnt already have what it needs to deal with aggro decks ...

what excatly are you talking about?

this deck practically auto-loses to goblins and merfolk

your creatures are bigger then theirs (and have trample) so it make sense

fdiv_bug
05-26-2010, 03:00 PM
Go and get 4 mana against Lands and come back and talk to me, especially while paying for tabernacle.

Probably true.

LOurs
05-26-2010, 03:10 PM
Note that I never said that grounds doesnt make sense. I just said that I am not sure that the deck really needs it, that is pretty different : my aim is just to avoid a win more card because every as in every tempo based deck, each slots is really important. Grounds could be good in that deck, but in my experience, I didnt really feel the need to get more weapons to deal with aggro deck.

I am not considering at all this deck as an auto loss to gobos & merf . These match are difficult, but far less than landstill is imo.

Vs gobos post board I have 3 EE, 2 hydroblast, 4 swords + stifle & counters and it was more than enough to win with a single terra out. Btw, a EE=1 first round is really good vs gobos, especialy if you won the roll. It doent work all the time as well, but pretty good in average.

Vs landstill, it is pretty different as you have almost no good answer to them, so in that case I feel the deck is NEEDING cards to deal with them.

Vacrix
05-26-2010, 03:22 PM
EE is mediocre against Gobos because they have such a wide variety of mana costs. Dueling Grounds is mediocre at 3cc.

I like how Quicksilver's original list runs Tabernacle. Has Crop Rotation been considered? Crop Rotation fetches Wasteland, Horizon Canopy, Fetchlands (to make your dudes bigger) as well as helps you to color fix, play around wasteland, etc. Postboard it finds Tabernacle against your aggro matchups, and it can also find Bojuka Bog against decks like Loam, Reanimator, Combo (IGG loops), and Ichorid. And it can find Karakas against Reanimator.
I know that not everyone can afford Tabernacle but for those who can, it looks like a more optimal sideboard plan to me.

Svenanole
05-26-2010, 06:54 PM
I have been testing bant charm online in place of EE and i have really been liking it. The only situation where i wanted it to be EE is when my opponent pulled out 3 nobles out of his butt and i couldn't stop his 5/6 trygon

Aleksandr
05-27-2010, 04:26 AM
Has Mystic Enforcer any place in this deck?

Finslayer
05-27-2010, 04:32 AM
Has Mystic Enforcer any place in this deck?

I don't think so, Mystic Enforcer isn't that good without threshold and once you get to threshold Knight and Terravore are usually bigger. Mystic Enforcer costs 4 mana which is propably too high for a card that gets outpowered easily and we have better creatures for lower cc so imho Mystic Enforcer hasn't any place in this deck.

Nekrataal
05-27-2010, 04:45 AM
What about Ice Storm as another means to battle 3 color decks like most Bant (at least as a SB card)?

Rain
05-27-2010, 05:41 AM
Merfolk MU is favor unless they land Vial turn1.
We have to deal with only LoA and Submerge or Mind Harness after we FoW or EE their turn1 Vial.

It's favor also abaout Goblin unless their Vial or Lackey effects.
FoW or EE can be answer to turn1 Vial. FoW, StP, PtE, BEB, Stifle with goyf can be answer to turn1 Lackey.

I have never wanted that 3cc enchantment against tribal MUs.
I think 4EE with aditional spot removals are enough. Pithing Needle would be in my sideboard if I need more answers.
EE and Needle are versatile compared with Dueling Grounds.

five
05-28-2010, 02:13 PM
Here is a breif report from a 9 person local tourament.

Round 1 Enchantress
I notice my deck is one card short and am scrambling to find it. My opponent doesn't mind; he has to use the bathroom lol. I finally figure it out, but have wasted valuable time. We play game 1 and Enchantress basically locks me out. I probably should have scooped at some point but was too stubborn. Eventually he gets there with 4/4 Angel tokens. I board out 4 Swords and 1 Wasteland (he has all basics) for 3 Grips and 2 EE. I feel like I could have got there with the SB help, but we run out of time. He wins the round 1-0.

Round 2 b/r Control
Both games I lock him out with Wasteland. He is totally mana screwed.

Round 3 Affinity
Both games I use KoR to fetch up Wasteland over and over. Eventually my well fed critters get through.

Top 4:

Belcher
Game 1 he goes off 1st turn, but I have FoW for his Burning Wish. Game 2 I keep a hand with Stifles, hoping to see my first turn. He goes off first turn with Empty. I don't have Explosives. Game 3 I mulligan to 5. Keep a hand with 1 FoW but no pitch card, and Explosives but only one land. Again he goes off first turn with Empty the Warrens. My second land is 3 cards down; too late for EE. His 14 goblins get there.

Well, I guess 4th place is better than the last tourney I played with NH. I feel like with a little better luck against Belcher I could have taken first again. The finals was Belcher v. Enchantress. I wouldn't have minded a rematch with Enchantress; EE seems solid agaist shroud and tokens. Props to my Belcher opponen for going off first turn in all three games against me. Second turn would have been too late for either of those game he won. He ended up taking first in the tournament.

jimirynk
05-29-2010, 10:28 PM
Do we ever board out stifles or creatures?

Rain
05-30-2010, 07:03 AM
@jimirynk
Stifles can be boarded out if you have more than 4 cards to board in against Zoo and Merfolk.
I think Terravores can be against Ichorid and Belcher combo.

Svenanole
05-30-2010, 05:47 PM
thoughts on Sejiri Steppe?

I took out a windswept heath for it mainboard and fit one in the sideboard and really, really like it late game when we dont have any counters left in hand

paK0
05-30-2010, 06:47 PM
I board out Stifle every now and then, mostly vs. monocoloured Decks or Decks that have a Manabase that is to strong to disrupt.

I can see that you might wanna cut Vore vs Belcher, but I love them when I have to face dredge. Sometimes they can recover from a single hatepiece, so having the biggest critter is important.

mchainmail
05-30-2010, 07:13 PM
@jimirynk
Stifles can be boarded out if you have more than 4 cards to board in against Zoo and Merfolk.
I think Terravores can be against Ichorid and Belcher combo.

It seems like terravore is good against ichorid because they get chump blockers easily. I might be wrong though.

Federicus
05-31-2010, 05:55 AM
thoughts on Sejiri Steppe?

I took out a windswept heath for it mainboard and fit one in the sideboard and really, really like it late game when we dont have any counters left in hand

I tested 1 and that's my thoughts:
- 99% of time it is completely useless if you have it in hand (trample >>>> protection from 1 color)
- 80 - 90% of time it is not the land you put in play if you have an active KOR
- most of the deck you need to use steppe are deck we own with or without it (except ofc landstill)
- there is only 1 case it is REALLY good, if you are playing vs landstill and you side gaddock. An active KOR + gaddok is a win vs our worst matchup.
Long story short I switched the steppe for something more usefull in my meta (1 karakas)

LOurs
05-31-2010, 07:08 AM
Seijiri effect could be useful but I cant see a tapped land to well fit into NH except bog (its effect is much heavier and sustainable). I think momentary blink in example could be better : you cant fetch it otherwise than with ponder/bstorm but it is an instant, and the flashback is castable (hardly expansive but doable).

I recently tested armaggedon : this card is really efficient vs landstill once a KoR or Terra out but not that useful vs any other decks. So if geddon would be considered, I would go with it only as SB choice.

I also tested the deck vs Affinity and this is not a good match up imo : I was pretty annoyed by the clock of the deck, the amount of critters it provided and the uneffiency of EE and stifle. Affinity not being that much played, the threat isnt that big, but it could be interesting to find an answer in case of (1/2 sb hurkyl ie) even if krosan helps here.

In our meta, karakas is very good as it is extremly useful vs reanimator or even to deal with random Emrakul/vendillion. A must imo.

Lastly there is another card I am testing : berserck. This card, really fast and easy to cast, often transforms 1 attack into leathal damages whatever the creature target. Plus it provides trample to KoR & Tarmo which is pretty sick, especialy on knight : it works when a creature attacks alone but also very well when you have 2 creatures on the board inclunding 1 terra (then 2 creatures are huge trampler). The card is situational, but really provides a surprising & devatating attack which is often decisive. It also allows to the deck to win faster, which is pretty good, especialy to deal with decks that have good midgame/lategame plans. It has to be tested more, but my first feeling when I tested it is that it is a great add to the deck as a 1/2 of.

ImpinAintEasy
05-31-2010, 11:43 AM
Seijiri effect could be useful but I cant see a tapped land to well fit into NH except bog (its effect is much heavier and sustainable). I think momentary blink in example could be better : you cant fetch it otherwise than with ponder/bstorm but it is an instant, and the flashback is castable (hardly expansive but doable).

I recently tested armaggedon : this card is really efficient vs landstill once a KoR or Terra out but not that useful vs any other decks. So if geddon would be considered, I would go with it only as SB choice.

I also tested the deck vs Affinity and this is not a good match up imo : I was pretty annoyed by the clock of the deck, the amount of critters it provided and the uneffiency of EE and stifle. Affinity not being that much played, the threat isnt that big, but it could be interesting to find an answer in case of (1/2 sb hurkyl ie) even if krosan helps here.

In our meta, karakas is very good as it is extremly useful vs reanimator or even to deal with random Emrakul/vendillion. A must imo.

Lastly there is another card I am testing : berserck. This card, really fast and easy to cast, often transforms 1 attack into leathal damages whatever the creature target. Plus it provides trample to KoR & Tarmo which is pretty sick, especialy on knight : it works when a creature attacks alone but also very well when you have 2 creatures on the board inclunding 1 terra (then 2 creatures are huge trampler). The card is situational, but really provides a surprising & devatating attack which is often decisive. It also allows to the deck to win faster, which is pretty good, especialy to deal with decks that have good midgame/lategame plans. It has to be tested more, but my first feeling when I tested it is that it is a great add to the deck as a 1/2 of.

I am surprised the Affinity matchup is bad. Stifle the modulars, EE the platings or counter, wasteland the 1/1 flyer. You should have grips coming in from the board. I've yet to lose this matchup, but it really doesn't matter since it sees very limited play online.

@Berserk - I can see where you are going with this idea, but I think it loses the decks focus. I'd almost rather have another threat in this spot like rhox war monk plus it is pitchable to FOW. I've also been toying around with Jenara to get around Moat, but so far it seems meh. Often times I find I'd much rather have some type of countermagic.

The deck is gaining much more of a following online, I played 3 mirrors yesterday.

LOurs
05-31-2010, 12:42 PM
Honestly, I was also surprised and it is possible I misplayed.

But the fact is that Affinity if really fast, and you often have less response than they have threats in very early game (turn 1/2) The problem was not really the usual bombs of Aff (as are ravager or modular ie) but the huge numbers of creatures with different CMC they are able to cast in a very few time (EE cant clean all in that case). Post board my situation was pretty better thank to krosan that said. The other problem was to gain the tempo race : vs aff I didnt manage to apply any LD strategy and then wasnt really able to win the tempo race. Once in play, I didnt manage to survive to the attacks of multiple robots. Disciple are also a threat as fetch+canopy already damage you ... However I won rounds when I casted my critter (even one is enough sometime) but I felt myself to be slow, which is pretty unusual with this deck. Once again, it is far to be a unwinnable MU, but at the moment I cant consider it as favorableMU in my experience.

About Berserck, it is only a test at the moment, so I cant be sure of anything. But I am not considering it as an important part of the deck, only as a CMC1 spell that could provide an unexpected & fast victory. More countermagic could also be useful, but more critters doent seem necessary to me. I'll update with new results after testing.

Cenarius
06-02-2010, 01:29 PM
This is a very interesting deck, to be honest. As a Tempo Threshold player, I can see the benefits of creating tempo (using Stifle, Wasteland etc.) followed up by KOTR, creating Card Advantage, Manabase disruption, Sideboard options and a large beatstick.

I can really see some interesting things in these lists, however I am confidant it isn't near to perfection. Why? First, the deck plays large bombs, but has only a few means of protecting them. I would definitely run Spell Pierce in Mainboard.
Spell pierce counters a lot of important spells, f.e. it helps you by attacking their manabase (countering brainstorm's, Sensei's Divining Top, Ponder's). It counters large 4cc bombs, it helps against Counterbalance, it helps against ANT, Reanimator and more. I wouldn't play Spell pierce in a metagame only filled with Goblins and merfolk, I wouldn't even play this deck, tbh. Luckely I don't have such a metagame, and I don't think anyone else has so Spell Pierce should be great in the Mainboard.

The second thing I would change is Terravore. It just seems too cluncky for me. Its just a large beater. This deck already has 8. Why need 11? Instead of playing Terravore, I would advise to play 2 Stoneforge Mystic with a Umezawa's Jitte and SoFaI package. Or 2 Umezawa's Jitte, or 1 Umezawa's Jitte and 1 Collar. Not sure what is better.
Stoneforgr mystic makes your own creatures even better. Even Stoneforge mystic itself becomes a threath with one of those equipments on it. Two 'unfair' equipments in your Mainboard gives you an edge against Agro-control decks, Agro decks (like Goblins, Merfolk and Zoo) and Eva green/Rock-like decks. It really seems powerful to me.
It is also a pretty decent tempo card, creating CA.

This would be a list that I would (and I play it so) play:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Stoneforge Mystic

2 Equipment (1 Umezawa's Jitte, 1 Sword of Fire and Ice)

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Ponder

4 Horizon Canopy
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tundra
3 Tropical island
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

Sideboard

3 Rhox War Monk
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Spell Pierce

Not sure about the sideboard yet. The Krosan Grip seem to be so clunky with those Spell Pierce floating around. So maybe this deck has 3 open sideboard slots. Maybe they could be filled up with Blue elemental Blast, if you expect a lot of Goblins. Maybe other cards are better, because u already board a lot of cards against the agro matchup.

Please, tell me what u think. I'm open for discussion.

j-flo
06-02-2010, 02:17 PM
Just started playing the deck recently. I think it is pretty powerful so far. Do people ever sideboard in leyline of the void versus you guys? If so, what is the best way to remove it? Or do you just play around it?

paK0
06-02-2010, 02:47 PM
Just started playing the deck recently. I think it is pretty powerful so far. Do people ever sideboard in leyline of the void versus you guys? If so, what is the best way to remove it? Or do you just play around it?

I faced a Leyline once. If you suspect it it is worth to bring your Grips in. It's not impossible to win through Leyline, but it is kinda troublesome.

Other Gravehate is too weak to board stuff for it (aside from Planar Void, but noone plays that anyways), Wheel can even be beneficial sometimes =).



@Stoneforge: Terrible idea imo. The deck already has the biggest creatures around, so what is the point of cutting your best beater to make your other creatures better, they don't need it anyways.

danielcrocker
06-02-2010, 02:48 PM
Just started playing the deck recently. I think it is pretty powerful so far. Do people ever sideboard in leyline of the void versus you guys? If so, what is the best way to remove it? Or do you just play around it?

Grips?

Cenarius
06-02-2010, 03:09 PM
I faced a Leyline once. If you suspect it it is worth to bring your Grips in. It's not impossible to win through Leyline, but it is kinda troublesome.

Other Gravehate is too weak to board stuff for it (aside from Planar Void, but noone plays that anyways), Wheel can even be beneficial sometimes =).

@Stoneforge: Terrible idea imo. The deck already has the biggest creatures around, so what is the point of cutting your best beater to make your other creatures better, they don't need it anyways.

Clearly u never played Umezawa's Jitte.

j-flo
06-02-2010, 03:22 PM
Grip is the obvious hate for it, and it does the job, but it just seems lame and inefficient to be bringing in grips only to destroy an opponents leyline. Anyone ever think echoing truth could be good? Can bounce multiple leylines and with our disruption it probably wont be very easy for them to cast and resolve one. Plus echoing truth can be good even if leyline isn't on the board, by bouncing threats and stalling an opponent, giving us some extra time to cast one of our beaters. It just seems to me like most black decks that will be running leylines probably wont be running any other artifacts or enchantments anyways, so grip seems like overkill to me.

ImpinAintEasy
06-02-2010, 03:33 PM
Clearly u never played Umezawa's Jitte.


While I like your thinking, Jitte just isn't needed. Agreed on spell pierce which is why I removed daze in my build. I just felt like daze was way to meh for me.

Terravore is the finisher, Knight is the set up guy, Tarmo is the bait. Can't believe I actually said Tarmo was bait :laugh:

danielcrocker
06-02-2010, 03:39 PM
While I like your thinking, Jitte just isn't needed. Agreed on spell pierce which is why I removed daze in my build. I just felt like daze was way to meh for me.

Terravore is the finisher, Knight is the set up guy, Tarmo is the bait. Can't believe I actually said Tarmo was bait :laugh:

I agree that jitte isn't needed at all ...what about a splash of red for firespout?

ImpinAintEasy
06-02-2010, 03:44 PM
I agree that jitte isn't needed at all ...what about a splash of red for firespout?


The 3-4 Engineered Explosives, plus STP's should be enough where spout isn't needed. Also many sideboards run Meddling Mage which has been a MVP for me several times.

paK0
06-02-2010, 04:19 PM
Clearly u never played Umezawa's Jitte.

If you ask for opinions don't complain if you get them.....



@j-flo:
Leyline itself is not played as often, so putting specific hate in the board just for seems like a waste. That said once it does show up you should use what you have, and that is Grip most of the time.
The problem is that Grip is brought in in quite a lot of different matchups, so removing it for a card that fills a different role is not something I would do.

And after all, getting rid of the problem is better than just bouncing it =).

Cenarius
06-02-2010, 04:54 PM
It's ofcourse easy to say that I complain. It's easy to flame, right? I just think it's a fact that u haven't played Umezawa's Jitte, thats all. You clearly haven't tested my idea, by responding on my post within one hour. Making your argument a bit irrelevant.

It's an horde of enemy creatures that will win them the game, not just a big one. Since all of your creature will be bigger than theirs.

Anyway, I wouldn't recommend Firespout since going to a 4c manabase against Merfolk/Goblins is asking for trouble. Firespout cannot be resolved against Merfolk, lets be honest about that.

five
06-02-2010, 07:21 PM
It's an horde of enemy creatures that will win them the game, not just a big one. Since all of your creature will be bigger than theirs.


That is exactly why we play Terravore! He is always a 10/10 trampler or better; if that doesn't get through a horde of enemy creatures, I don't know what does. EE can trim the horde as well.

The only times 'Vore has been lame for me is against decks that run all basics. Even Merfolk and Goblins usually put some lands in their 'yard, so the Vore should be decent. Against most decks, we Waste them out of the game w/ KoR, and naturally Vore becomes huge.

Svenanole
06-03-2010, 12:49 AM
@jin

its not that good, you need to focus on how your going to win the game and then taylor your cards around that specific win condition.

Our win condition is Knight of the Reliquary. Once we can get one of him to stick we should win the game. Your win condition is what?

back on topic-

What about a single ghost quarter in the sideboard to hate on decks that run few basics?

jrsthethird
06-03-2010, 05:35 AM
I would be running it in addition to Ponder. The bad thing about Loam is when it puts threats into your graveyard. Strategic would be much less likely to do that and it would still get lands in your graveyard. Even though Loam technically produces card advantage, it's basically cutting you off of real threats while it's doing that.

...and Strategic still pitches to Force. I'll try it out and see how it feels.

Been reading through this and I think you missed a key part of why Loam was used in the primer:

Loam is there for decks that will destroy your Crucible. So, does Strategic Planning return lands you've used? No. Loam lets you grab 3 lands you've spent, while Planning lets you grab 1 out of 3 cards, no guarantee that they will be useful lands. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

paK0
06-03-2010, 06:55 AM
It's ofcourse easy to say that I complain. It's easy to flame, right? I just think it's a fact that u haven't played Umezawa's Jitte, thats all. You clearly haven't tested my idea, by responding on my post within one hour. Making your argument a bit irrelevant.




I played a crapload of different decks with Jitte. The "problem" is that Jitte is not a bad card. A Knight with a Jitte is really good at winning games, but so is a Knight without.

What I have learned is that Jitte is best at winning creature wars. If the situation is even or slightly off balance Jitte usually turns the tide in your favour. But this is why Jitte is not needed, you hardly have even board positions. Mostly the board is empty and as soon as you resolve a threat you are in a winning position. Jitte does not support the decks gameplan, so there is hardly any use in testing it.

BantFTW
06-03-2010, 12:00 PM
Could someone who tested this give the matchups?
Gobblins, Zoo, Merfolk, ANT, Bant, Fearies, ichorid, reanimator..

paK0
06-03-2010, 12:53 PM
Could someone who tested this give the matchups?
Gobblins, Zoo, Merfolk, ANT, Bant, Fearies, ichorid, reanimator..


Gobbos is ok, a little in our favour. Zoo is favourable, Sligh is a little more trouble. Merfolk is in their favour. ANT slightly negativ.
Bant:
Most Bant decks are about even (ProBant, Bantsurvival), not sure about Countertop though

Control Faeries are about even, Tempo Faeries are positiv.

Ichorid depends on your board obv.

Reanimator is a bye.


I havent played Goblins in a tournament, but my testing and tournament results seem to back the stated things up (still there will be some people who have different results =).)

BantFTW
06-03-2010, 01:15 PM
Why David Pierce get's so high results with the deck?
If the matchups aren't that good?
Wich meta does he plays in :O??

paK0
06-03-2010, 02:24 PM
Cause he is good. This is a lot like Canadian Thresh:
While you have tough Matchups you always have a fighting chance.


And Anwar Ahmad just looked ad the numbers of the last SCG:
The top 3 played decks are Reanimator, Merfolk and Zoo, so you have 1 highly positive, 1 positive and 1 slightly negative one. The most troublesome versions of Merfolk are actually Mono U, and since in the US quite some pilots splash colours it isn't as bad.

Federicus
06-04-2010, 02:56 AM
Could someone who tested this give the matchups?
Gobblins, Zoo, Merfolk, ANT, Bant, Fearies, ichorid, reanimator..

- Goblin is a bit in our favor (let say 55 / 45 preside 50 / 50 post side)
- Zoo depends alot on the list but usually it is even or a bit in our favor
- Merfolk is not a good matchup (50 / 50 pre side 45 / 55 post side)
- ANT is a bad matchup (35 / 65 pre and post, it can be worst if you don't play MM in side)
- Faeries usually is 50 / 50
- Ichorid is 45/55 pre and 50/50 post
- Reanimator is 60/40 pre and post (not a buy but still a good matchup)
- Landstill is our nightmare 30/70 pre and post
- MBC, Eva, Rock, ecc 40/60 pre-side and worst post side

_Ertai_
06-04-2010, 10:03 AM
In my experience countertop decks are a bad matchup

Satan McNipples
06-04-2010, 10:34 AM
In my experience countertop decks are not a bad matchup.

Federicus
06-04-2010, 10:57 AM
In my experience countertop decks are not a bad matchup.

In my experience too.
Countertop decks are easy to face (Bant is the easiest).

_Ertai_
06-04-2010, 11:37 AM
and how do you face up counterbalance? when cb and top are on the table the game for me is quite over...

Satan McNipples
06-04-2010, 01:35 PM
The problem matchup for me has been ANT. When they Chant me, then cast Tendrils with a storm count of nine, the game for me is quite over.

RogueMTG
06-04-2010, 01:39 PM
and how do you face up counterbalance? when cb and top are on the table the game for me is quite over...

I'll admit I'm not an expert on this deck by any means, but in looking over Dave Price's recent lists, he packs 4x Krosan Grip and 3-4x EE post-board, which seems pretty capable of handling CB/Top. NTM disrupting their often fragile mana-bases.

_Ertai_
06-04-2010, 03:17 PM
The problem matchup for me has been ANT. When they Chant me, then cast Tendrils with a storm count of nine, the game for me is quite over.

lol...



I'll admit I'm not an expert on this deck by any means, but in looking over Dave Price's recent lists, he packs 4x Krosan Grip and 3-4x EE post-board, which seems pretty capable of handling CB/Top. NTM disrupting their often fragile mana-bases.

yeah.. after sb isn't stil al bad matchup... but the game 1 is hard....

five
06-04-2010, 04:09 PM
The only Countertop deck I have played against with NH is ProBant. As mentioned before, our best chance G1 is to disrupt their fragile mana base. Of course this means Swordsing Hierarch. CBTop has a hard time finding 3cmc cards to counter our big beaters. By the time they get Progenitus, it can't outrace the beaters. I once had a Terravore trample over Progenitus for 1. Whoo hoo! I also out raced a Progen by Swordsing my Goyf (CB blind flip revealed NO) to gain life, and swinging with KoR for lethal next turn.

Purgatory
06-04-2010, 06:06 PM
I just threw together this deck today and had a go with it against some friends, after playing around with a list on MWS for a while. I must say, it has exceeded expectations for me, the deck seems to be pretty stable.

If I feel confident enough, I'll be taking this to tournaments in the near future, instead of my usual Merfolks.

One thing I noticed that I lacked, however, is that bar Terravore, there are no creatures with any evasion in the deck, there is no way to break a ground stall war except maybe draw a couple of StPs in a row. Has anyone considered Vendilion Clique?

routlaw
06-04-2010, 06:34 PM
I'm somewhat new to the deck but so far when I've faced off, say, his 2x Goyf or 1x Goyf, 1x War Monk versus my two creatures (that aren't Terravores), it's usually enough to just pump Knight a couple of times with fetchlands until it's 7/7 or 8/8 (you can do some unexpected combat tricks with fetches and wastelands in this deck, btw) and this just eat a creature every turn from there.

You can also bait the double block and blow him out with StP if you think you can win the ensuing counterwar.

Cenarius
06-05-2010, 07:18 AM
I just threw together this deck today and had a go with it against some friends, after playing around with a list on MWS for a while. I must say, it has exceeded expectations for me, the deck seems to be pretty stable.

If I feel confident enough, I'll be taking this to tournaments in the near future, instead of my usual Merfolks.

One thing I noticed that I lacked, however, is that bar Terravore, there are no creatures with any evasion in the deck, there is no way to break a ground stall war except maybe draw a couple of StPs in a row. Has anyone considered Vendilion Clique?

I'm playing 2 Stoneforge Mystic + 2 Equipments (one will definitely be Umezawa's jitte) to deal with this problem.

Also, you guys should start playing (3) Spell Pierce.
It protects your threats, it's awesome against Landstill and Countertop. Reanimator, Ant and Staxx become more easier. It counters some really broken cards against you when you're on the play: Sensei's Divining Top, Aether Vial. It can counter Brainstorm's and Ponder's when you're sure you are denying him enough to seal the deal fast.

You'll all be fond by it. I'm sure of that.

aznepyon7
06-05-2010, 01:02 PM
- Goblin is a bit in our favor (let say 55 / 45 preside 50 / 50 post side)
- Zoo depends alot on the list but usually it is even or a bit in our favor
- Merfolk is not a good matchup (50 / 50 pre side 45 / 55 post side)
- ANT is a bad matchup (35 / 65 pre and post, it can be worst if you don't play MM in side)
- Faeries usually is 50 / 50
- Ichorid is 45/55 pre and 50/50 post
- Reanimator is 60/40 pre and post (not a buy but still a good matchup)
- Landstill is our nightmare 30/70 pre and post
- MBC, Eva, Rock, ecc 40/60 pre-side and worst post side

Thanks for the info! But what about GWB, Bant Survival, and Aggro Loam?

GWB Survival is what I'm most curious about.

Testing Horizons against Eva Green, I'm getting similar results. Not too great...

j-flo
06-06-2010, 12:02 AM
Exactly how needed is the basic forest in the traditional list? It just seems like we run enough lands and stifles to negate enemy wastelands, and we're pretty much screwed under moon effects anyways, so why even worry about the basic in the manabase? Canadian thresh and team America don't use them, so why should we?

Rain
06-06-2010, 08:42 AM
Basic Forest is for Terravore. Opponent's Wasteland often disturbs our timely Terravore though we have Stifles.
I think Team America should have a basic Swamp for TS and SH in their deck.

Now I'm testing the list cutting a fetch for 3rd EE. I feel this isn't bad.

BantFTW
06-06-2010, 05:27 PM
What can we do against aggro decks like gobbs..?
And I don't like EE that much so I woul go -something +3 spell pierce (good card against ANT, reanimator, cb-top)
Would 4 dueling grounds sb be enough to handle aggro?

ImpinAintEasy
06-07-2010, 10:43 AM
Basic Forest is for Terravore. Opponent's Wasteland often disturbs our timely Terravore though we have Stifles.
I think Team America should have a basic Swamp for TS and SH in their deck.

Now I'm testing the list cutting a fetch for 3rd EE. I feel this isn't bad.

I did this exact thing online. I cut one land (running 22) and added in 1 EE giving me 3 Maindeck. I have found it to be highly effective vs the online meta atm.

Personally, I do not run any basics. I haven't had any problems with my mana base as of yet, but online there aren't tons of blood moons or magus floating around.

paK0
06-07-2010, 10:58 AM
What can we do against aggro decks like gobbs..?
And I don't like EE that much so I woul go -something +3 spell pierce (good card against ANT, reanimator, cb-top)
Would 4 dueling grounds sb be enough to handle aggro?

EE is one of the few cards in this deck that deals with permanents, so cutting it is a rather risky move.

I'm not sure that aggro is worth 4 slots, aside from Merfolk you are favoured against most aggro decks anyway.

five
06-07-2010, 05:59 PM
Wow, there were 3 NH decks in the top 16 at SCG Philly. One was labeled as "Bant," but it was clearly NH. The NH that got 5th was a little different than Dave Price's build though. It ran the CB/Top combo and no Terravore. It also had *blast from the past* Portent, lol. Dave Price got 4th, finally losing to Pro Bant. His sideboard was different from last SCG open. Here is the new list:

Sideboard:
2 Crucible Of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Rhox War Monk
4 Krosan Grip
1 Life From The Loam

Basically the only difference is the Loam. I can't remember what he cut for that; either Bojuka Bog or Worm Harvest? I haven't tried the War Monks, has anybody else? I have beaten Zoo and Merfolk rather routinely and don't think RWM is necessary for these matchups. My SB list is very similar except it cuts the RWMs, Loam, and 1 Grip for 3 Meddling Mages and 1 Bojuka Bog. Bog seems good, but have only used it a couple times. MM turns Lands into a bye naming Loam. It should be good against ANT too, but I haven't tested it. Don't know what I'd name either. Maybe Mystical Tutor or Infernal Tutor? Any suggestions there?

Anybody else watch the live feed of Price vs. Orr? Price lost 0-2. I only saw game 2, where he scooped to Orr's Progenitus. Dunno if it was a play mistake, but Price had FoW in hand when Orr cast NO off the Dryad Arbor he dropped that turn. I don't think Price tried to FoW the NO, he just scooped. I had no audio and resolution was poor, so I may have missed something. Price spent the previous turns Pondering and Brainstorming, looking for a threat I assume. Perhaps he had no blue spells left to pitch to FoW (I didn't see his hand when he lost, just happened to catch a glimps of the FoW as he drew it. Personally, if I knew I was facing NO, I would plan on FoWing that sucker at all costs. Usually the Bant player has FoW back up too, but who knows? Perhaps I missed something, feel free to pipe in with your thoughts.

lordofthepit
06-07-2010, 06:31 PM
This deck has obviously been getting good results, and I might want to try it out sometime in the near future.

Just out of curiosity, with the creature base consisting of Tarmogoyfs, KotRs, and Terravores, how do you deal with graveyard hate (especially Relic of Progenitus, which kills your Terravores and effectively prevents your Goyfs from ever winning combat)? Outrace them? Stifle? Let them shrink your guys, then rebound again?

five
06-07-2010, 07:15 PM
This deck has obviously been getting good results, and I might want to try it out sometime in the near future.

Just out of curiosity, with the creature base consisting of Tarmogoyfs, KotRs, and Terravores, how do you deal with graveyard hate (especially Relic of Progenitus, which kills your Terravores and effectively prevents your Goyfs from ever winning combat)? Outrace them? Stifle? Let them shrink your guys, then rebound again?

Yeah, those options work for Relic. Also you can counter it if needed obviously. Grips work nicely too since opponent usually doesn't want to detonate right away.

deadlock
06-08-2010, 07:50 AM
My build differes quite a bit from the standard build and i want to know what is wrong with my choices. I admit gladly that i use the wrong cards, but i need some reasoning behind you claims.

I refer to this as "standard" build: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=33232

So here is my list (put your focus on the maindeck, the sb was geared for the meta 2 months ago):

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [B] Tundra
3 [B] Tropical Island
1 [ZEN] Island (1)
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Forest (1)
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
2 [OD] Terravore
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage

// Spells
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 [ARB] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk

So here are the key differences:
- Less land and Noble Hierarchs instead: The reasoning is basically the same as this deck uses: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17600-W_Tempo_Threshhold. Both Daze and Waste sets you back, which makes it more difficult to drop a 3 mana bomb (the standard list runs 7 + 2 EE). Also you are more to manascrew / Daze yourself. I think that the approach of "w_tempo_thresh" is superior in that regard, but lacks in other departmens. Mainly that it doesnt fully abuse the extreme power of Knight / Terravore / Horizon Cano, which also negate the tempo lose of using STP by having creatures with huge power.

- Spell Pierce over Stifle: Having 12 manascrew effects like standard build is powerful for sure, but it makes you weaker against other chaff aswell. I dont think that it is the correct thing to go for a heavy LD plan (12 effects - TA like) than a moderate one (8 effects - Merfolk / Canadian ***** like). As there simply quite some decks were the additional LD is useless / less effective (e.g. Merfolk and Zoo).
What else does Stifle offer? One big plus is that it stops Relic and Crypt in G2, besides stopping Waste, Storm effects and activated abilitys, which are all a minor threat to this deck. I dont say that Stifle is the wrong choice, it could very well be that Spell Pierce is better in the board than in the maindeck, but i like it because it stops creature removal targeting your very valuable creatures (foremost Knight and Vore). This was formerly achived by David using Misdirection, but Pierce offers a much greater versatility by stopping CB / Natural Order and all kinds of combo.

- Minor point: Pridemage over EE in the maindeck: With Noble Hierarch in the picture, Pridemage is much better because he beats by himself, stacks Exalted triggers, adding to the aggresive nature of the deck.

-The discussion of the board is another point, but can be disregarded for now. Keep in mind that the standard list has other needs concerning the board, so dont compare them directly.

jrsthethird
06-08-2010, 09:08 AM
- Spell Pierce over Stifle: Having 12 manascrew effects like standard build is powerful for sure, but it makes you weaker against other chaff aswell. I dont think that it is the correct thing to go for a heavy LD plan (12 effects - TA like) than a moderate one (8 effects - Merfolk / Canadian ***** like). As there simply quite some decks were the additional LD is useless / less effective (e.g. Merfolk and Zoo).

.....but your list has 4 LD cards: Wasteland. Dave's build has 8. I don't know why you're talking about decks with 12.

deadlock
06-08-2010, 09:15 AM
My bad, i count Knight as way to mess with my opponents mana foremost in most cases. Should have mentioned this. I admit that this maybe too thin under certain circumstances, but my poiints remain valid nonetheless.

ImpinAintEasy
06-08-2010, 11:26 AM
This deck has obviously been getting good results, and I might want to try it out sometime in the near future.

Just out of curiosity, with the creature base consisting of Tarmogoyfs, KotRs, and Terravores, how do you deal with graveyard hate (especially Relic of Progenitus, which kills your Terravores and effectively prevents your Goyfs from ever winning combat)? Outrace them? Stifle? Let them shrink your guys, then rebound again?

Stifle is an obvious choice as well as Grips. You also have Meddling Mage as an option if needed. Knight can easily rebuild then reload. Like another poster said, countering is also an option, although this is not an option I would use to often. I'd rather save my counters for other things. If they land T1 Relic, more than likely you hold threats till you find stifle or grip and then you can start laying creatures. Remember, Goyf is really just bait for knight and terravore. It is ok to watch him get removed and save your counters to keep the other two on the board.

five
06-08-2010, 05:18 PM
@ deadlock
I have never had trouble with the 3cc of our bombs. Usually this deck can out tempo the opponent early on with Stifle/Daze etc and so it doesn't really feel too slow dropping a KoR turn 3-4. Sometimes I get a slow start and am down in the life count. That is okay because a huge trampling Terravore helps with the comeback. I think more lands and no Hierarchs has better synergy with this deck.

It is always surprising what Stifle can hit. One of my opponents played a random Oblivion Ring on my KoR once; I realized I could Stifle that. Stifle is huge against goblins, hittling Lacky and Ringleader's triggers. I really like that card and wouldn't want to cut it. Daze stays active longer with our mana denial, so it should be almost as effective as Pierce.

EE in the main is nice against decks that use all basic land. Since the mana denial plan is out, they are likely to out tempo us pretty fast. EE helps us gain some of that tempo back. I had to learn that the hard way...

One more point: I remember you mentioning that land destruction is not so hot against Zoo. I would beg to differ. They usually run many fetches and non-basics. Every time you Waste a dual, your probably going to make Kitty or Ape shrink. Unless they luck into some early basics, they will be hurting throughout game. I have never had a problem with Zoo, playing against several experianced opponents.

*Sorry if it feels like I am hating on your list; it's not a bad list by any means. I am trying to get Hierarchs so I can build a similar Bant deck: Excalibur. It doesn't run any mana denial though. Instead it runs more counters, more creatures, and lots of equipment. Seems great against an aggro meta, as most of my local stores are. Also, more Bant decks are running Jace TMS. That seems pretty good too, but not in NH.

jrsthethird
06-08-2010, 08:35 PM
*Sorry if it feels like I am hating on your list; it's not a bad list by any means. I am trying to get Hierarchs so I can build a similar Bant deck: Excalibur. It doesn't run any mana denial though. Instead it runs more counters, more creatures, and lots of equipment. Seems great against an aggro meta, as most of my local stores are. Also, more Bant decks are running Jace TMS. That seems pretty good too, but not in NH.

Glad to see you're going to the Hierarch version instead of the stupid Vial version. Also I saw a couple people at the Philly open playing Jace in NH and I was just confused. You can't just throw it in every deck and expect it to be awesome.

five
06-09-2010, 04:36 PM
Glad to see you're going to the Hierarch version instead of the stupid Vial version. Also I saw a couple people at the Philly open playing Jace in NH and I was just confused. You can't just throw it in every deck and expect it to be awesome.

Yeah, it seems like Vial has about as much business being in Excalibur as it would in New Horizons. There is a reason that the proven decks who run it also have like 20+ creatures (Merfolk, Goblins, UWT, etc).

I'd like to run Jace in NH, but it doesn't seem like the right fit. I am curious about the Bant Control deck that Rain mentioned earlier in this thread. Jace seems like the centerpiece of that deck.

jimirynk
06-10-2010, 07:22 PM
How do you board vs the mirror and re-animator?

five
06-11-2010, 05:26 AM
How do you board vs the mirror and re-animator?


The sideboard I like is this:

2 Crucibles (I have a Mindbreak Trap as a place holder right now:tongue:. I need one more CoW!)
3 Grips
3 Meddling Mage
4 Crypts
1 Bojuka Bog
2 EE

Against Reanimator, you could probably go -2 EE, -2 Swords and -1 Forest for +4 Crypts and +1 Bog. We shouldn't need EE or the Basic Forest, and taking out Swords should be safe since they will probably go with Inkwell Leviathan. Iona on white would make Swords useless too. Another idea is -2 Ponder and -2 EE +4 Crypts. This gives you a chance to Swords the random SnT into Blazing Archon or something. I am (2-0) against Reanimator decks and I am pretty sure I took out the Swords. Normally I take out Daze on the draw, but not against Reanimator. Our mana disruption works great against them, so Daze stays active longer. I like having blue cards to pitch to FoW too. Reanimator decks have several answers for Crypt. If they go with Null Rod or Pithing Needle, you may want to bring in the Grips. Seems kind of slow though...

I have never played a NH mirror match but Crucible of Worlds seems really good. Explosives seems kind of bad. On the play I might go -2 Explosives, -4 Daze, for +2 CoW, +3 Crypts, +1 Bog. On the draw, would bring back the Dazes and board out 4 FoW. FoW seems pretty bad in this mirror match as it gives away too much CA.

That's my .02, what do you guys think?

paK0
06-11-2010, 12:42 PM
Against Reanimator I go -2 EE -2 Swords -X Ponder, bringing in Gravehate as well as Combohate.

I never played the mirror, but I think EE might be good enough to stay mainboard, having more removal spells ( I would bring in Pathes form the board) goes a long way.

ScatmanX
06-11-2010, 12:49 PM
Don't you guys think that Explosives is good agains't Reanimator?
I mean, it is a colorless answer to Animate Dead...

menace13
06-11-2010, 01:00 PM
Don't you guys think that Explosives is good agains't Reanimator?
I mean, it is a colorless answer to Animate Dead...

EE is next to useless vs Animator, unless you want to clear needles.
Not many animator lists run Animate Dead, and even less would use it vs a deck with both G and W.

five
06-11-2010, 03:57 PM
Here are my results from a small tourney at Samauri Comics in Phoenix:

Round 1 Reanimator (2-0)

Round 2 Belcher (2-0)

Round 3 Astral Slide (ID)

Top 4

u/w/b Dreadstill (1-2)

I actually could have beaten Dreadstill, but I made some epic misplays games 1 and 3. The control match up is hard since they have so many answers to our threats. I wouln't side out Ponders here because they help dig out more critters and answers. I went -4 FoW, + 3 Grips +1 EE (on the play). I won that game drawing all 4 Daze and it hit every time! G3 I ment to go -4 Daze, +4 FoW, but apparently I forgot:tongue:. So I was stuck with Dazes on the draw and no FoW. I also forgot to Stifle a V-Cliques trigger that game. Epic fail!

five
06-12-2010, 11:09 PM
I played in another 8 man tournament today at Game Nightz, in Phoenix. We played 3 rounds and cut to stantings.

Aggro Bant w/ Countertop (2-0)
SB: -4 Daze, +3 Grips and +1 EE

"Crossfire" -counter/burn combo (2-0)
SB: -4 Swords and -3 Stifle, +3 Grips, +3 Meddling Mage and +1 EE

Reanimator (ID, split 1st)
*SB: -2 EE, -2 Swords and -1 Forest, +4 Crypts and +1 Bojuka Bog

Reanimator and I played 5 or 6 games for fun; Game 1 main board and all the others were SB. He won game 1 and I won all the others.

jrsthethird
06-13-2010, 12:45 AM
Played in a small tournament tonight, I couldn't get all the cards in time to build Dave's list from the Philly Open so here's what I played:

-1 Terravore
+1 Vendilion Clique (nice to have, but not a house like Terravore)
-3 Tundra
-1 Horizon Canopy (mana was screwy to say the least, I had no clue the best way to sort it out so I winged it with what I had)
+1 Plains
+1 Island
+1 Savannah
+1 Tropical Island

Sideboard:
-2 Crucible of Worlds
-1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Bojuka Bog
+2 Rhox War Monk

I went 3-1, lost to mana flood. I rolled first every round and got an above average roll (8+ with 2 D-6's), and lost each time! argh....

Round 1 - bad Deadguy Ale - Beat him 2-0 even after recovering from a series of terrible misplays on my part game 1, as well as keeping a hand with 2 Wasteland and no other lands. I had a Brainstorm and Ponder in hand, seemed great on the draw if I saw a land, but my next card was the Savannah! =/ The guy was really annoying, he was trying to tell me that RWM was bad since it costed 3 mana of different colors, and told me to play Knight of Meadowgrain instead because it was cheaper.

Round 2 - Affinity - He was a younger kid, beat him pretty handily game 1, after boarding I drew into 3 Krosan Grips and just killed everything he tried to swing with, after attaching Cranial Plating. He showed me Blood Moon after the game, and I was glad he didn't draw into it. I handled his mana well and I don't think he would have gotten a chance to cast it, but I don't know what I would have done if he did because I didn't go for my basics. After the game the guy from round 1 was telling him to put Mishra in his deck because he works well with artifacts.

Round 3 - Elves - I really didn't know how to play this matchup correctly, and my draws were pretty bad and I drew into waaay too many lands, both games. I also didn't set my EE correctly. I sided in my RWM's but sadly did not see them.

Round 4 - Belcher - Game 1, he had a terrible hand, he eventually had to Land Grant, play Timber Wall, and pass because he didn't have any other mana in his hand except another Tinder Wall. I Swords'd it, and the game was sealed from there. Game 2 I mulled to 6 and kept a hand with Daze and Stifle, thinking I could stop him if he didn't go off turn 1. He did. Game 3 was humourous, my hand was 2 land, 2 Swords, 2 FOW, EE. Obviously I kept. Turn 1 and 2 Xantid Swarms were both met with a Swords, I drew into another EE, so I played one to kill the Chrome Mox he cast the second Swarm on, and a couple turns later he tried to play Belcher, I Forced it. He made 8 Goblins the next turn, I killed them with EE. It still took me a couple turns to draw a threat, but eventually RWM got there. RWM seemed really good in this matchup, much better than Terravore or KOTR, since he can pitch to the crucial turn 1 Force and also really reduces the mass-Goblin clock with lifelink.

This was my first time playing the deck and I'm pretty satisfied, I just hope I can grab Tundras before I play it in anything significant. Otherwise it was good to get a feel for it.

ImpinAintEasy
06-13-2010, 01:24 AM
I played this decklist tonight in a 19 player tournament on MTGO. Entry fee was $5, went 3-1 and won 6 Urza Boosters (sold for 18)

Lands (22)
4 Wasteland
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas

Creatures (12)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Terravore
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought - I wanted to try it. I did manage to cast it twice, once it ended up being game winner, 2nd time it was STP'd

Spells (26)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard (15)
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Hydroblast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Rhox War Monk - I was anticipating several Zoo builds
3 Meddling Mage
2 Spell Pierce
1 Tabernacle of the Pendrell Vale
2 Tormod's Crypt

Round 1 vs. sansantong (Sligh) L (1-2)

Game one was the usual Goblin Guide, Burn, Hellspark Elemental, Spark Elemental. I landed dreadnought somewhere around T4, I was holding 2 counters and he must of gotten some lame draws as I secured the victory on T6. Side in 2 Rhox, 3 Mage, 2 Hydroblast, 2 Pierce, Side out 2 STP, 4 Stifle, 1 Dreadnought, 1 Karakas, 1 Ponder (Not sure I made the best sideboard play here).
Game 2 - I think I have wrapped up when he lays down Ensnaring Bridge. I totally forget they played that card as I don't face many sligh decks. After playing a few turns I decide to scoop as I have no answer to bridge and I don't see him making a mistake.
Game 3 Opening hand was: Knight, FOW, Daze x2, Tundra, Canopy,Wasteland. I play Tundra and pass, he plays mtn then lava spike, I cast daze. Draw Terravore, I play tundra, pass, he plays mtn then hellspark and I daze. Draw Brainstorm, I play Tundra again and pass, he plays double chain lightning, I cast Brainstorm and see Rhox, Tundra, Strand, keep rhox and tundra. I draw strand, play strand. He cast Spark Elemental and then chain lightning bringing me down to 7. I draw another strand and my hand now consists of FOW, vore, canopy, strand, Rhox. I have no back up for fow so I decide to play Knight. Not sure if I made the right play here or not. He was holding 3 cards so bolt, blast is gg. He plays a mtn, cast pyrostatic pillar. I draw FOW, cast rhox bringing my life total to 5. Had I cast rhox last turn I would be looking at 10 life instead after attack. He draws then casts Price of Progress which I have to Fow pitching Fow. This takes me to 4 life and he fireblasts ftw.

In the online Daily events you only win prizes for 3-1 or 4-0 so I am now fighting a huge uphill battle. I decide not to scoop in order to draft and it's onto Round 2

Round 2 vs. BeerHere playing MonoR Goblins W 2-1

From watching replays I know he is running goblins. My opening hand is Misty Rainforest, Tundra, Canopy, 2x EE, Tarmo, FOW. I win the dice roll, lay Tundra and set EE at 1 for Lackey. He goes Tarn into mtn into lackey. I draw tropical, play Misty, crack and play Tarmo. He plays Mishra's Factory then Piledriver. I draw dreadnought, play Canopy and pass. He plays a 2nd Lackey, passes and I set off EE. I draw FOW, sac canopy to draw a card and draw Knight, I don't attack and pass. He plays mishra's, cast matron fetching sharpshooter and passes. I draw strand, play strand, crack fetching Tundra, play Knight and attack with tarmo for 3. He cast vial, then Mogg Fanatic (ummm). I draw misty, fetch tundra, play EE at 1 then set it off to clear vial off board, he sacs Mogg. This draws a concession.
Side in, 2 Hydroblast, 2 Rhox, 1 Tabernacle, 2 Meddling Mage. Side out 4 Stifle, 1 Dreadnought, 1 EE, 1 Ponder

Game 2 - My opener is Canopy, 2x FOW, Rhox, Daze, Brainstorm (had to mull to 6). He plays mtn and lackey. For some stupid reason I don't counter. I draw EE, but by the time can utilize it Lackey has done its thing. Yet another reason not to play magic with distractions (silly kids).

Game 3 goes as expected. Ponder into Knight, STP on Lackey, Knight searches for Tabernacle and the concession ensues.

Round 3 vs. tumbadeurami - BantControl W2-1

Game 1 - I win the roll, opener is Tropical, Misty, Ponder, BS, STP, FOW, Tarmo - HELLO SMILE! Play Tropical and pass. He plays tropical and casts Noble H. I cast BS and see BS, Ponder, Misty. Draw Ponder, play misty fetching Tundra and STP Noble. He plays misty fetching Tundra and casts Counterbalance. I FOW pitching Ponder. He dazes, I pay 1 mana and he passes? I draw stifle, play misty, cast Tarmo and pass. He casts jitte, I bs, find Daze and cast. I draw misty, fetch Tundra, attack with tarmo for 4 and pass. He casts Rhox and passes. I draw Tropical don't play it (hand is 2x tropical 1 stifle). I attack for 4 with tarmo, he doesn't block. He plays another rhox and misty, attacks for 3 and passes. I draw Terravore, play Tropical to get around daze, then vore and pass. He plays misty, cast another Rhox (wtf) and passes. I draw canopy, sac to draw EE (smile). I don't play it and pass. He casts Trygon Predator and passes. I draw Tarmo, attack with Terravore, he double blocks, I shouldn't of attacked. I play EE at 3, crack and destroy his board (smile). He casts tarmo and passes. I draw stifle, play tarmo and pass. He plays Tarmo (ugh) and passes. I draw daze then pass, he does nothing. I draw brainstorm, cast, seeing wasteland, canopy and fow. play the canopy and draw stifle. He draws then passes. I draw stifle, play wasteland targetting his Tundra. He draws and passes. I draw dreadnought, play and use stifle, he hardcasts FOW on stifle, I daze, he casts FOW pitching FOW and I cast FOW pitching Stifle in return, woo hoo Nought on board! He draws then passes. I draw misty, attack with nought for 12 bringing his life to nothing as he topdecked stp (ugh). He draws then passes, I draw FOW, play Misty so it can be hardcast, at eot he casts clique which I FOW. We both draw and pass for a few turns, I was drawing more lands. Finally I draw Knight and it lands. He casts Noble, I draw wasteland hitting his tundra brining Knight to 9/9 with misty still on board. I don't attack as I want to wasteland for his last tundra. He draws and plays basic plains (ugh) and then Sensei's. I instead search for canopy, crack to draw stifle. I draw another knight which seals the deal.

Game 2 he is able to keep me off creatures and lands Jace 2.0

Game 3 Opener is Strand, Canopy, Wasteland, BS, STP x2, Spell Pierce. I play Strand fetching Tundra, he play tropical and noble, I BS in response, find daze and misty but let it resolve. I draw the waste I put on top, stp his noble, he dazes and I pass. He play trop and noble again, I daze, he dazes again and passes. I play tundra, stp noble and waste his tropical. It all went down him for him after that. I get to 3 mana and cast Terravore as bait while holding Knight. He casts FOW on vore and I smile. Next turn I cast knight with pierce backup and a few turns later its game over.

I was pretty happy how I played these matches, especially since I had gotten paired up. Onto Round 4

Round 4 I get paired down (Reward for hard work last round I suppose) (sligh) W 2-1

I talk with my opponent for awhile and he tells me he knows I place and he can't so he wants to play the games out, but said he would concede in the end no matter what. I thank him for his generosity and begin game one.

I lose game one in a nailbiter, game 2 I won on the back of stps on his goblins guides and my Rhoxs. Game 3 I have 2 tarmo, 1 rhox and 1 knight on the board when he disconnects in order to give me the victory. While I am not sure if I would of won or not, I did like my chances with my board position.

Sorry for the sloppy write up, getting late here.

I've played two tournaments with New Horizons on MTGO and I'm 7-1 overall with 2 tournament placements. I love this deck and see myself playing it for quite some time.

Sucks that the price of Urza's boosters is low online right now. I did sell my 6 boosters, got 18 tickets and joined a Masters Edition 123 draft where I pulled a Plateau. All in all not a bad night!

Davmeister84
06-13-2010, 02:28 AM
Here's a link to a tourney report from a 33 person tourney where I took New Horizons to a 3rd/4th place finish.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17876-3rd-4th-place-at-Face-a-Face-Legacy-for-Power&p=462545

five
06-13-2010, 04:13 AM
Here's a link to a tourney report from a 33 person tourney where I took New Horizons to a 3rd/4th place finish.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17876-3rd-4th-place-at-Face-a-Face-Legacy-for-Power&p=462545

What did you board out for MM when facing Reanimator? I am guessing Terravore. He can be a little slow for that match up. Plus, Mage gives you blue to pitch if necessary. What did you name? I guess it would be situational...

Rain
06-13-2010, 05:56 AM
Joined small tourament around 20 players, no top8.

md
4 Windswept Heath
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropocal Island
3 Tundra
4 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
4 Tarmogoyf
4 KotR
3 Terravore
4 Ponder
4 StP
4 BS
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 FoW
3 EE

sb
1 Bojuka
3 Tormod
2 BEB
3 Grip
1 EE
2 CoW
3 MM

R1 Zoo with Elspeth
G1 win
-1 Forest -3 Daze +1 Bojuka +1 EE +2 BEB
G2 I couldn't deal with his turn1 Lavamancer and turn2 Relic.
-3 FoW +3 Daze
G3 made some bad plays :( I'm sure I could win with natural play.
1-2

R2 mirror
G1 He drew more KotR than me.
-1 Horizon -2 daze -3 EE +1 Bojuka +2 CoW +3 MM, I misunderstood I was on the draw lol. I think I was tired.
G2 He managed to draw PtE with BS on his last turn. He controled rethal KotR, I controled rethal Terravore and rethal goyf casted on recent my turn.
0-2

R3 Zoo with Kavu Pradetor, Fiery Justice
G1 win
-1 Forest -3 Daze +1 Bojuka +1 EE +2 BEB
G2 win
2-0

R4 Goblin
G1 win
-3 Daze +1 EE +2 BEB
G2 lose
-2 FoW -1 EE +3 Daze
G3 win
2-1

R4 Goblin
G1 win
same as R4
G2 lose
same as R4
G3 win
2-1

I'm satisfied with 3rd EE in MD.
I'm going to join tournaments next 3 weekends. 1 is Japanese Legacy Championship.

conboy31
06-14-2010, 01:11 AM
The deck just edged out zoo in a 189 person SCG tourny to take 1st place. No list yet.

five
06-14-2010, 04:18 AM
Played in a 20 man tournament at Pop Culture Paradise in Tempe, Az today. We did 4 rounds and top 8. I don't remember all of my SB's for sure, but I'll do my best. Some were poor choices, but it luckly didn't cost me too bad. BTW I was using the exact same sideboard I mentioned near the top of this page (on 6-11-10).

White Weenie (2-0)
G2 -4 Daze, +2 EE and +2??

Eva Green (2-1)
G2 (drawing) -4 Daze, +3 Grips +1 EE
G3 (play) -4 FoW, + 4 Daze

Rounds 3-4 ID into top 8

Merfolk mono u (2-1)
G2 (drawing) -4 Daze, +2 Explosives and +2 Meddling Mage
G3 (play) -4 Fow and -2 Meddling Mage, +4 Daze and +2 Grips

Dreadstill b/w/u (2-?)
-4 Daze, +3 Grips and +1 EE

Gobilins r/b (1-2)
G1 (drawing) -4 Daze, +2 EE and +2 Grips? or maybe +2 MM?
G2 (playing) - 4 FoW, +4 Daze

So Goblins got 1st place and won a Tropical Island. I got second place, and I really needed that Tropical Island :rolleyes:. I played really bad game 3. I Daze his t1 Vial (not bad), but then I also Daze his t2 Pile Driver (very bad). He is now at 3 land to my 1 lol. That alone gave him the tempo he needed to win, but I made another mistake or two to make things worse. It would have been nice to have a closer game for the grand finale of the day.

So my theme of boarding out Daze on the draw is probably a little redundant. I should really figure out what matches I don't want to do that in (like Reanimator obv). Daze really sucks against Goblins. Like they need any more help on tempo lol.

practical joke
06-14-2010, 04:56 AM
Yesterday was the Dutch Legacy team challange ( unsanctioned for practical reasons like a non-shared cardpool)

We got there with 4 teams each consisting out of 3 players.

I played the following list, since we just had that with us.

4 tundra
3 tropical island
4 horizon canopy
4 windswepth heath
4 flooded strand
4 wasteland

4 brainstorm
3 ponder
4 force of will
4 daze
3 spell pierce
4 swords to plowshares
4 stifle
3 terravore
4 knight of the reliquary
4 tarmogoyf

SB://
3 tormod's crypt
1 bojuka bog
2 krosan grip
2 umezawa's jitte
3 rhox war monk
2 path to exile

We are used to have a more control meta, but that day....I saw none, my opponents were all near aggro.

As a player I scored 4-2, as a team we took 3 spots out of the T4.

Round 1: vs zoo ( team won)
G1: My fatties> his little ones
G2: more creatures than I could handle
G3: RWM + knight and I screwed him for 0 green mana= win

Round 2: vs Merfolk (team lost)
G1: I couldn't take out triple standstill
G2: I thought I had it, then I drew 4 dead cards and he drew 4 lords.

Round 3: Goblins (team won)
G1: I screw on 2 lands after he wasted one. Never got a new land with ponder/brainstorm
G2: jitte> goblins
G3: double piledriver + battle squadron > me

Round 4: Eureka/show and tell (team won
G1: in T5 he resolves show and tell into proggy, I drop an 7/7 terravore. add a knight, use canopy for a card. I go to 6, beat him to 1, stp my knight and beat for 9 in his turn for lethal.
G2: He never got more than 2 mana. waste, stifle, stp on birds, spell pierce lotus petal into ponder.

Round 5: B/G loam-control (team won)
G1: he screws on 4 lands since I waste 2, stifle 1, goyfs take the game
G2: long game, he extirpate my wastes and takes down my lands 1 at a time. I have double goyf vs tombstalker. he dredges loam to make my goyfs 5/6. I start pulling the damage tree. once each goyf is at lethal he has to chumpblock. I can stifle and spell pierce 2 spells and win the match right after

Round 6 ( team I.D. with high resistance and making T4)


semi-finals: Goblins (team won)
G1: he takes me out hard. ( double lackey, vial, double instigator with a ringleader)
G2: I get a fast start with 4/5 goyf and a 6/6 knight. he doesn't get there
G3: I force lackey, play goyf, vial comes in safe. I play 3 more goyfs and stifle his vial 2 times and swords a piledriver. He didn't stood a chance.

finals: T4 was already split, we play for the trophy and medals. Finals never got played since the trophy goes to Team Nijmegen after since the other team ( NLS, NLS, ANT) took out the only team not from nijmegen.

Great day, and the deck plays fine. didn't miss EE a single moment and RWM rocks
I did miss a single savannah in the list. I wish I could've fetched for it a whole lot of moments

DrHealex
06-14-2010, 10:29 AM
Do you think that jitte spot would be better as a ghostly prison, i'd imagine you would board it in just as often as jitte and it seems to work well with mana denial.

practical joke
06-14-2010, 10:34 AM
Try to mana denial goblins or merfolk with only basics.

You are right about when to board it in, we built this list 10minutes before the starts, fixing cards from everywhere.

So jitte came to mind first, since we all forgot the propaganda/ghostly prison or even duelling grounds ( noone brought the last one, so we skipped it for jitte)

I'll definately pick those cards up, since the deck is really nice to play. It's just horrible against aggro...
Then again there are also situations where a jitte is superior to ghostly prison I've noticed.

menace13
06-14-2010, 11:50 AM
I think those Cliques in the SCG winning list are teh awesomesauce. Flying, immune to Perish, GY hate and ups the FoW count coupled with his RWMs(great vs aggro) giving the deck versatility against many SB hate cards.

ImpinAintEasy
06-14-2010, 12:28 PM
I think those Cliques in the SCG winning list are teh awesomesauce. Flying, immune to Perish, GY hate and ups the FoW count coupled with his RWMs(great vs aggro) giving the deck versatility against many SB hate cards.

Agreed! I finally bought some online as the price went down to $5 instead of that overpriced $12 mark.

Someone have a link to that SCG list?

cdr
06-14-2010, 12:36 PM
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=leg&start_date=2010-06-13&end_date=2010-06-13&start=1&finish=16&event_type=STAL (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=leg&start_date=2010-06-13&end_date=2010-06-13&start=1&finish=16&event_type=STAL)

Dave Price hates the Clique, but Dave Price hates all changes to the maindeck.

jrsthethird
06-14-2010, 01:32 PM
I can see where Crucible would be good, but why does Dave have a random Life from the Loam in his board from the Philly Open? What would you board it in for?

I like the new list that got first in Seattle. I need to do some testing against Zoo first before I talk any more but I like his changes.

deadlock
06-14-2010, 02:30 PM
I like Clique from the board (not md!) for these reasons:
- Its strong against Aggro Control, Control and Combo.
- It is blue, which is quite relevant, as you have to keep the right count for FoW.

There might be better cards outhere though.

Loam is strong against heavy manascrew obviously and a game winning bomb against control decks like Landstill.

Rain
06-15-2010, 05:57 AM
About rondom Loam,
Control deck players board Grip or something to deal with our CoW because we board the artifact in against control decks is well known now.
In addition, Loam can recover our GY quickly after Relic's second ability.
But I don't like Loam eats mana.

jrsthethird
06-15-2010, 10:52 AM
What do you guys usually sideboard in popular matchups?

Lord_Cyrus
06-15-2010, 01:11 PM
How is this deck not attracting more attention/getting mentioned as a possible DTW or even DTB after so many strong recent finishes by top pros and relative legacy newcomers alike?

New Horizons pairs a proven disruption suite with huge, gamebreaking monsters, and based on results from the SCG Opens, all with over 200 players each, appears to have no truly poor matchups among top tier decks. I give Dave Price all due credit for creating a new winning archetype - something that doesn't just happen every day in Legacy. However I feel that the deck needs to move forward with reasoned discussion about different card choices in top decklists, such as Vendilion Clique.

If anything, I hope this post will be a call to action. People need to pile on and post results from their testing and examination of this deck. If I can learn more about a new deck that fascinates me. i.e New Horizons from reading tournament coverage over at SCG, then this website is doing a poor job as "My Source for Legacy". Where is the excitement? Have people just moved on? :eyebrow:

/Rant

Now to share what I think was one of the best plays at SCG Open: Atlanta by champion Kyle Boddy. Quoting Bill Stark:

"The score was 19-11 in Matt's favor, and he had more than enough burn to knock Boddy out. He showed extreme patience in holding it, however, with a Fireblast, Lightning Bolt, and Price of Progress ready on a moment's notice. Kyle cast a second Terravore, and Smith finally decided to pull the trigger. He cast Price of Progress, but Kyle had responses. Daze bounced a dual land, and Matt paid. Wasteland took out one of Kyle's own lands, and by the time the Price actually resolved Kyle was taking 2 damage while Matt himself was taking 6. All of a sudden, Kyle was very much in things." http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/19540.html

I think this line of play illustrates the depth of strategic options that New Horizons has against Zoo, in a matchup that continues to be problematic for many other Aggro-Control decks like Merfolk and Can Thresh. Boddy was able to punish price of progress and turn it against its own caster! Clearly, in the hands of a seasoned player, New Horizons has what takes to beat the field.

BantFTW
06-15-2010, 03:58 PM
Idd that's true what you say, and also, it's a very easy deck to play...
I don't really like the EE's main, you don't really need them.
I play 3 spell pierce main (-2 EE and -1 ponder-) because you can cast spell against every deck and almost all the decks these days play something non-Creature so...

But the sideboard:
the deck has some problems against aggro, so I think RWM 2/3x ain't bad and also dueling grounds (I play it 4x atm, that's a mittlebut much maybe but I'll see) and also 2x PTE extra in side should let you win against aggro easely..

Any suggestions for sideboard people? than let me know

Ty

Black Mass
06-15-2010, 04:04 PM
The EE's are the answer to all the problems you otherwise can't handle if they stick and are golden in game 1 vs. Tribal decks, I wouldn't cut them personally, they're way too versatile imho.

BantFTW
06-15-2010, 04:23 PM
Why EE, isn't it to slow (never tested it btw^^)
And why only 2, why not 3 then if it let's you win the aggro game :O?

kyleb
06-15-2010, 07:45 PM
Just wanted to drop by and say thanks for this thread. I read through most of it on Saturday night before I played on Sunday. :)

As noted in the commentary a few times, this was my second Legacy tournament ever. I don't buy into the "Legacy is a different animal" argument; constructed Magic is constructed Magic. I've been playing long enough (Smemen can confirm; we used to play in the same area) that I know all the interactions of the older cards, so it's nothing new to me.

Now to some basic commentary (want to keep it brief as I'm writing an article for SCG):

-EE is pretty necessary maindeck to blunt fast Zoo starts and to kill Jitte
-Dueling Grounds sounds pretty good but doesn't solve the Lavamancer problem
-I'd probably play PTE in the sideboard if I had to do it again; subtracting Krosan Grips
-I'd play the third Terravore in the SB
-Maindeck Clique was ridiculous all day; obviously the interaction with Karakas is huge
-Jitte in a deck with 12/12s doesn't make any sense
-Loam has terrible negative synergy with your deck; Crucible is probably fine
-There is way too much love for Spell Pierce amongst Legacy players; you already crush all decks that it's good against

Rhox War Monk was really good against Zoo, but it might be better to have some other lifegain-type card. Zoo is probably not a good matchup, especially if they have Price of Progress.

I Dazed twice then Wastelanded in the finals. Coverage was a bit wrong there.

Anyway, thanks again for all the hard work. I only made a few tweaks and can only really recommend adding Clique and Karakas to the maindeck.

ETA: Dueling Grounds does solve the worst matchup problem, though: Goblins. Probably a solid idea.

j-flo
06-15-2010, 09:33 PM
I played in the SCG Seattle this past sunday and took New Horizons. I've only been using the deck for about a month now and this was my first legacy tournament using the deck. I went 5-2-1 and got in 27th out of 191 people. Not a top 16 like I had hoped, but I feel like overall I had a very solid day.

Here's the list I used:
4 wasteland
4 horizon canopy
4 windswept heath
2 flooded strand
2 misty rainforest
3 tropical island
3 tundra
1 savannah

4 knight
4 goyf
3 terravore

4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 stifle
4 daze
4 force of will
4 swords
2 engineered explosives

SB:
2 rhox war monk
1 engineered explosives
2 krosan grip
2 spell pierce
2 crucible of worlds
2 elspeth, knight-errant
3 tormod's crypt
1 bojuka bog

Report:
Round 1
I got paired against my brother. This was horrible. We both started the day out with high expectations and I got paired against the one person out of 190 other people that I didn't want to be paired up against. We decided in favor of both of our success that we should draw.
0-0-1

Round 2-Thopter/New Horizons Homebrew
G1-He mulls to six and draws only a couple of lands. I EE his thopter, then goyf makes him scoop.
G2-He mulls to six again and I spell pierce his crucible. Then I was able to land a crucible of my own. Crucible and a resolved knight wrecked his mana base and the game was quickly over when my 10/10 knight started swinging.
1-0-1

Round 3-Countertop Thopter
G1-He keeps a one land hand and never draws any more. I land a goyf and he can't stop it.
G2-He mulls to 6 and this helps me keep his mana base shakey. Then I get a knight and a vore down and there is nothing he can do.
2-0-1

Round 4-Mirror Match (Winner of the tournament)
G1-I out tempoed him from the beginning, but it was a close game by the end of it. I had 2 knight and a goyf vs his vore and a smaller knight. He couldn't attack with his creatures because he was so low on life. Soon enough I was able to punch through and get the win.
G2-I Couldn't find enough lands, his early goyf put the pressure on me. When my life was getting low I had to try to answer back with only a couple mana out, but my goyf and my knight both got dazed. At that point it was too late and his goyf beat me down.
G3-He gets out two goyfs and a vore and I have a knight and a vore. My life total was already down to 3 because he was able to get his creatures on the board first. He then attacked me trying to get the win, but I had a chance to stay alive and possibly make a comeback. I blocked his goyf with my knight and his other goyf with my terravore, then before damage I was going to shrink his vore to a 2/2 by fetching my bojuka bog with my blocking knight. Unfortunately he had a stifle so the 4/4 vore was just strong enough to kill me.
2-1-1

Round 5-Mono Blue Merfolk
G1-Gets out an early vial, then drops a slivergill and 2 lord of atlantis with it. There was no way for me to get rid of my own islands so there was nothing my goyf could do. The game was over too quick so I never had a chance to find an answer.
G2-The game was in hand until he casted a back to basics. Stupid me totally forgot they played that in their board. It was my mistake and I payed for it.
2-2-1

Round 6-Dredge
G1-Unmasks my force and drops a putrid imp. I swords the putrid imp and he discards a stinkweed imp. Luckily that was enough to slow him down. He dredges and doesnt hit anything good. My terravore gets a boost from a couple lands in his graveyard and soon finishes him.
G2-He starts the game trying to unmask me and clear his path of graveyard hate, but luckily I can force it. At that point he needs to get his dredgers in his graveyard, so he has no other choice but to gamble with a breakthrough. His hand is now in his graveyard, and luckily for me I had an opening hand that had a tormod's crypt in it too. I remove his graveyard and he was in topdeck mode. A goyf and a Knight ended the game a couple of turns later.
3-2-1

Round 7-Enchantress
G1-I get out a knight and I destroy all the nonbasics that he pulled, because his multiple elephant grasses are holding my attacks back. In the mean time I was also able to get a vore out. Then I EE for 1, wiping out 2 utopia sprawls and 2 elephant grass. At that point he was stuck white mana and I beat him down.
G2-It was a long game but I pulled it off just before time expired. He oblivion rings my goyf. Next turn I play an elspeth and he runed halos naming soldier token. I drop an EE for 3 but I only have 4 mana so I have to wait a turn to activate. Then he drops a choke and it took a while before I drew another land, but he drops a null rod anyways. Once I hit 3 mana I krosan gripped the null rod and then blew the EE up for 3. I got my goyf back thanks to elspeth my flying goyf finished the game quickly.
4-2-1

Round 8-Lands
G1-My opening hand was great, but it sucked vs a lands deck. With no way to remove his graveyard, his loam engine was to
powerful.
G2-I forced his exploration and next turn he drops a mana bond. Luckily he had no loam and my knight was awesome because it destroyed his tabernacle and mazes. I could have removed his graveyard with knight fetching for a bojuka bog, but I never had to do it because my terravore was a beast and it finished him in a couple swings.
G3-He played around daze, but luckily I had boarded in spell pierce for that reason. Spell pierce countered a second turn exploration and I got out an early goyf to apply pressure. I wastleland a maze and keep chipping away at his life total. Soon I also got out a terravore and even his zuran orb could not save him, because every land he sacrificed made my vore bigger. Eventually he ran out of lands to sacrifice so I finished him off.
5-2-1

Closing Thoughts:
Overall I really like this deck. I feel it is definately one of the best decks in the format and based on the results it has been putting up, I don't think people will argue with that. I am happy that New Horizons ended up winning the SCG Seattle and kyleb was a really cool guy and was also a very good player. Congrats to him!

Lord_Cyrus
06-15-2010, 10:07 PM
Awesome! I am so pleased to see the major New Horizons players from the SCG Open postingn here. Congrats to both of you, especially Kyle for showing up with the deck and showing us that it can win a major tournament.
@ j-flo: that is still an impressive achievement! Fighting through that many rounds and doing that well with any deck, let alone a newer, less tested one is difficult.

Thanks also for clearing up that play against PoP in the finals. I thought it was an especially interesting and strong play that really sealed up the game (from the sound of the coverage).

Having said all that, what I would really like to get is each of your opinions on optimum card choices / best strategies. Kyle, sounds like you didn't find the K. Grips that useful, and are looking more towards shoring up the Aggro matchups. In my (limited) testing of the deck, I would agree. I hate how Path negatively impacts our LD strategy though. Is it just a necessary evil, being the second best card to Swords in the main? I have to say I do like either Dueling Grounds or Ghostly Prison out of the SB, probably Dueling as it is a must-answer card for *all* tribal aggro and most Zoo decks. If New Horizons can slow their combat down that much, our men will just trump them, and all we have to do is focus on protecting our finishers (especially Knight/Vore) and saving our Swords to take out the most problematic threats, like an opposing Knight or Lavamancer from Zoo, or Lords of Atlantis from Merfolk. Basically, I believe it's a card that improves the efficiency of the strategy against fast aggro decks. Whether or not it's better than Rhox War Monk or Path to Exile is another question, but it seems like a good fit for the situation.