[Deck] Eva Nought

[Jon Stewart]

So I see lots of players playing Eva Green with a white splash for Vindicate to supplement the land destruction package. I couldn't help but think of how strong instead supplementing the land destruction package with the much cheaper and easier to cast Stifle and Daze would be, especially with all the new fetchlands floating around. Adding that blue splash made me realize how weak Hypontic Specter and Nantuko Shade are, as far as threats are concerned, especially compared to Goyf and Tombstalker. Hypnotic Specter and Nantuko Shade take a ridiculously long time to kill your opponent, and Shade ties up all your mana in the process of doing so. Even Goyf and Tombstalker aren't very quick as far as finishers go. Dreadnought by comparison wins games with just two hits max. This inevitably led me to this build...

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker

4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
3 Vision Charm

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Daze
4 Sinkhole

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Swamp

I am also intermittently testing Force of Will in the deck and it works well in the deck. I would play it if there was room, but all the cards the deck already plays are mighty powerful on their own, and while you will always have a blue card in hand to pitch for FoW, it's almost always a blue card that you actually want to keep. You rarely end up wanting to pitch Stifle, Vision Charm, Brainstorm or Daze because each of those cards just works really well in the deck and serves many functions. You are probably questioning my assertion that you rarely want to pitch Vision Charm, but if you try the deck, you will know what I mean. I explain the numerous functions that Vision Charm serves below. The deck does play many of the same cards as Team America. Nevertheless, I am absolutely convinced that Phyrexian Dreadnought and Vision Charm, two of the key differences are both worth playing. Eight threats are just too few in this format, and nothing quite matches the brokenness of Dreadnought and it's ability to win a game with just 1-2 attacks thanks to trample damage.

I know that Transformational Sideboards rarely work. But I have been trying it and believe this is one of the few cases where they do. Because this is one of those rare instances where you don't have to use the transformational sideboard as a transformational sideboard. Every card in the board is good enough to be in the board on it's own merits. By running a sideboard consisting of...

4 Spell Pierce/Spell Snare
4 Snuff Out
4 Force of Will
3 Trygon Predator

You give yourself additional answers to creatures, to artifacts/enchantments, and eight additional counters to use versus combo matchups and such. You can simply board in which ever specific function that you feel the maindeck most needs or is lacking. But if you know that your opponent got scared by the Dreadnought and plays artifact removal in the board, then it's safe to assume that they'll be siding in all of their artifact destruction game two just because of the sheer scariness of Dreadnought. And you respond by siding out all of the artifacts and enchantments from your main deck, rendering all those cards they brought in moot, and replacing the Dreadnoughts and Vision Charms with cards that transform the deck into Team America.

Vision Charm is easily the most versatile card in the whole deck. It reduces Tombstalker's casting cost by 5, serving as a far better Dark Ritual and frequently enabling turn two Tombstalkers. It combos with Dreadnought to get you a 12/12 trampler on the second turn after a first turn Thoughtseize. It protects Dreadnought from every removal spell in the format, by phasing it out until your next upkeep. It acts as a Giant Growth for your Tarmogoyf, by instantly pumping your Goyf from a 1/2 to a 4/5 in response to an attacking Wild Nacatl or Jotun Grunt and such, and those cards you put in the yard later feed Tombstalker's casting cost. And if all that weren't enough, it even pitches to FoW and Time Walks/Abeyance's your opponent for the turn by shutting them from all colored mana during their upkeep. I have repeatedly considered playing 4 Vision Charm because the card is just that good, but ultimately, I just don't think the fourth one is neccesary.

The deck is not Dreadstalker, or Dreadstill. It's actually Eva Green with a blue splash. It's focus is on attacking your opponent's manabase, making the deck closer to Tempo Thresh in terms of how it operates. And while it shares quite a few similarities with Team America, it's not quite that either. Team America makes the mistake of playing a mere eight threats in a format absolutely packed to the brim with removal, which means that the deck always has to save some of it's countermagic to protect it's own threats, rather than using them to go after the opponent's game plan, secure in the knowledge that if it's threat gets killed, it'll easily draw into another one in just a few turns at most. This is further exacerbated by the fact that when you play only eight of something, some games you won't even see one of those threats until well into the midgame, by which time all the tempo you gained by using Stifle, Sinkhole and Wasteland is rendered meaningless. LD is a lot more powerful when you can plop down a threat very early on, while your opponent is most vulnerable due to their stifled mana development. LD becomes more and more meaningless if you can't immediately follow it up with a threat, and the game drags on into the fifth or sixth turn before you even draw a threat to cast, by which time your opponent's mana development has made a full recovery.

In addition, every other Dreadnought deck out there (Team America, Dreadstill, Dreadstalker etc) is built around Force of Will. Force of Will is a great card. But I think playing the full discard and land destruction suite that characterizes Eva Green is stronger overall. These cards either give you card advantage or a tremendous amount of tempo (unlike Force of Will which is ultimately card disadvantage).

So don't think of this deck as Dreadstalker. Think of this deck as Eva Green. Because that's exactly what this deck is in terms of how it functions...

If you want to make a direct comparison between this deck and Eva Green and see just how similar they are, you simply go...

Stifle --------------------> Snuff Out (Stifle's LD ability is better than Snuff Out's creature kill imo)
Daze---------------------> Seal of Cleansing (Both protect you, but Daze can hit more things and doesn't cost you any mana)
Brainstorm ---------------> Hypnotic Specter (Brainstorm is basically an Ancestral Recall thanks to all the fetches. Hippe generates less card quality advantage usually).
Phyrexian Dreadnought ---> Nantuko Shade (Dreadnought is the far better threat. Nantuko Shade is just a 2/1 that gets slightly bigger if you have spare mana)
Vision Charm--------------> Dark Ritual (Vision charm reduces Tombstalkers casting cost by 5!, plus it combos with Dreadnought, protects Dreadnought from removal, acts as a mini but permanent Giant Growth for your Goyf, and can even time walk your opponent for a turn by letting you shut off your opponent from all of his colored mana during his untap step.)

Just revert those changes above, and you transform this deck back into a completely standard list of Eva Green, which is why I claim that these two decks are so similar. And looking at the explanations above, you can easily see why I feel that almost every blue option is better than it's alternative option in Eva Green.

[miko]

I would recommend reading the Team America thread in this forum.

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah but Team America plays a bunch of blue cards to support Force of Will which in turn is card disadvantage. This deck plays black cards like Hymn that give you card advantage. And it plays a lot more land destruction.

Oops, I just realized what the Established Deck thing means. Mods can please feel free to move it to New and Developmental. My bad, sorry guys.

[leander?]

This deck is called Dreadstalker and there is a thread for it already.

[eq.firemind]

Didn't playtest this, but looks like turn 1 Goblin Lackey will give you a lot of troubles...

Also, Daze seems out of place 'cuz your Island count is low...

[Jon Stewart]

Why would a turn one Lackey give you a lot of trouble? Lackey or no lackey, goblins cant race a turn two Dreadnought or a turn two Tombstalker (Vision Charm first turn reduces Tombstalker's casting cost by 5). Especially when you're playing so much discard and land destruction to protect these threats.


This deck is called Dreadstalker and there is a thread for it already.

Dreadstalker doesn't play Hymn to Tourach, Wasteland, Sinkhole, Goyf, basicially, the strongest aspects of Eva Green.

Dreadstalker instead plays blue cards like Ponder to support Force of Will. Force of Will is a great card. But I think playing the full discard and land destruction suite of Eva Green is a lot stronger. These cards give you either card advantage of tremendous tempo (unlike Force of Will which is ultimately card disadvantage).

So don't think of this deck as Dreadstalker. Think of this deck as Eva Green but splashing blue instead of white like some decks opt to.

[eq.firemind]

Why would a turn one Lackey give you a lot of trouble? Lackey or no lackey, goblins cant race a turn two Dreadnought or a turn two Tombstalker (Vision Charm first turn reduces Tombstalker's casting cost by 5). Especially when you're playing so much discard and land destruction to protect these threats.
I heard Goblins play Warren Wierding and Sting Scourger ESPECIALLY to deal with beef and go nutz before you could drop another beef.
Also, you run 1 basic and they run 4 Waste (+ x Ports), so they can just screw your mana.

[Jon Stewart]

Which is why the deck plays 4 Thoughtseize, 1 Duress, 3 Daze, 3 Vision Charm (which protect Dreadnought by phasing it out in response to removal), and 4 Stifle (which counter comes into play abilities like Stingscourer and Warren Wierding) to deal with your opponents removal. And it even runs land destruction and Hymn to throw your opponent's gameplan completely off balance and often force them to discard a critical land, threat, or removal piece they were counting on.

If you count them up, this deck plays many more ways to protect it's 12 megasized threats than decks like Countertop, Dreadstill and Team Amerca to protect their fewer number of threats. The only card it doesn't play is Force of Will (it can't support the card disadvantage, and have to forego cutting fantastic black cards like Hymn, Thoughtseize, Sinkhole etc just to run more blue for FoW just isn't worth it). But it more than handily makes up for not playing FoW by playing Duress, Thoughtseize, Stifle and Vision Charm.

Plus if goblins is using a black/white splash for it's removal color, this deck has enough land destruction that it has little difficulty in cutting goblins off from it's splash color very consistently.

Or simply put, if a deck is using up their turn just to deal with your threat, and you can't protect it, you play enough threats that only have to hit with 2-3 times to win you the game that you can easily recover.

It's not a full proof plan (no deck has a full proof plan), but it works far more often than not.

[keys]

Nought isn't very good unless you have a reliable way to protect it. While discard is a decent defensive play, it's not nearly as reliable as CounterTop or Force. Moreover, without a way to generate real card advantage, you'll find yourself running out of steam even quicker than Eva usually does.

[Jon Stewart]

See my post directly above. You do play more than enough ways to reliably protect it. You play more ways to protect it than do every other Dreadnought based deck out there. On top of that, if anything, Countertop is an unreliable way to protect your threats since you need to draw and successfully resolve and keep on the board two different pieces for Countertop to be able to reliably protect them from anything.

Also what way to generate real card advantage do Eva Green, Team America and Tempo Thresh etc run that this deck doesn't?

[keys]

See my post directly above. You do play more than enough ways to reliably protect it. You play more ways to protect it than do every other Dreadnought based deck out there. On top of that, if anything, Countertop is an unreliable way to protect since you need to draw and successfully resolve and keep on the board, two different cards for Countertop to be able to reliably protect you from anything.

Also what card advantage do Eva Green and Tempo Thresh etc run that this deck doesn't?

Dreadstill plays 4 Counterbalance, 4 Force, 3 Spell Snare, 2 Daze, and 3+ Standstill to make up for the card disadvantage. That's a different story than Thoughtseize and Vision Charm, plus Daze (and 3 islands).

[Jon Stewart]

Dreadstill plays 4 Counterbalance, 4 Force, 3 Spell Snare, 2 Daze, and 3+ Standstill to make up for the card disadvantage. That's a different story than Thoughtseize and Vision Charm, plus Daze (and 3 islands).

Did you see me mention Dreadstill (other than to state that indeed this deck is nothing like Dreadstill)? I was comparing this deck to Eva Green and Tempo Thresh. Those are tempo decks just like what I posted. Dreadstill is not a tempo deck. And compared to other tempo decks, this deck plays just as many ways to generate card advantage, and often, more ways to reliably protect it's threats than those decks (even if you count Counterbalance despite it being a two card combo that you have no way of reliably or consistently seeing both pieces of early on).


Daze(and 3 islands).

Edit: Just 3 Islands huh? You seem to be implying that there's no way for any of the other lands get these islands.

[keys]

I'm not distorting anything. I said 3 Islands. But I concede, you probably are able to play daze more reliably that I implied with that statement.

You're still missing my point, which has nothing to do with your comparisons to Eva, Team America, and Tempo Thresh. My point was that the decks that play Dreadnought successfully have a lot of powerful ways to protect it from removal, as well as card advantage to make up for the 2-for-1. Your deck is lacking both.

Your claim was "[I] play more ways to protect it than do every other Dreadnought based deck out there," which is false.

edit: you gotta stop editing your posts after I respond lol...

[Jon Stewart]

My point was that the decks that play Dreadnought successfully have a lot of powerful ways to protect it from removal

Count them up. They don't.

4 Counterbalance, 4 Force, 3 Spell Snare, 2 Daze is not more ways to protect Dreadnought than 4 Thoughtseize, 1 Duress, 4 Hymn, 3 Vision Charm and 3 Daze.

And if you don't want to count Hymn since it's not reliable, you shouldn't count Spell Snare (since all of the main and popular removal spells for artifacts/creatures in the format are all either 1 casting cost, 3 casting cost, or 4 casting cost), and shouldn't count Counterbalance either (since it needs a seperate combo piece to function and you have less than 25% chance that you'll see both pieces of the combo early on).

So if you're only counting consistent ways to protect Dreadnought, Dreadstill only plays 6 cards that reliably protect Dreadnought from removal, and this deck plays 11 ways to reliably protect Dreadnought (4 Thoughtseize, 1 Duress, 3 Vision Charm and 3 Daze).

And even if you're talking card advantage. Hymn to Tourach generates only one less card advantage than Standstill. To make up for this, Thoughtseize actually generates one more card advantage than Force of Will. So they're almost even in that respect.

Besides, this deck plays Tombstalker which is almost just as menacing as Dreadnought. So it's quite not as big deal if this deck loses a Dreadnought as it is if Dreadstill loses a Dreadnought.

[keys]

Count them up. They don't.

4 Counterbalance, 4 Force, 3 Spell Snare, 2 Daze is not more ways to protect Dreadnought than 4 Thoughtseize, 1 Duress, 4 Hymn, 3 Vision Charm and 3 Daze.

And if you don't want to count Hymn since it's not reliable, you shouldn't count Spell Snare (since all of the main and popular removal spells for artifacts/creatures in the format are all either 1 casting cost, 3 casting cost, or 4 casting cost), and shouldn't count Counterbalance either (since it needs a seperate combo piece to function and you have less than 25% chance that you'll see both pieces of the combo early on).

So if you're only counting consistent ways to protect Dreadnought, Dreadstill play 6 ways to reliably protect Dreadnought and this deck plays 11 ways to reliably protect Dreadnought.

And even if you're talking card advantage. Hymn to Tourach generates only one less card advantage than Standstill. To make up for this, Thoughtseize actually generates one more card advantage than Force of Will. So it's almost a toss up in that respect.

Besides, this deck plays Tombstalker which is almost just as menacing as Dreadnought. So it's quite not as big deal if this deck loses a Dreadnought as it is if Dreadstill loses a Dreadnought.

Quality over quantity... Force >> any amount of discard. Your opponent can Brainstorm in response to Thoughtseize, and hide their Swords. You're also relying on luck that he/she won't just topdeck what he needs.

FYI, Spell Snare hits Pridemage, Stingscourger, Echoing Truth, Smother... just to name a few.

[Jon Stewart]

Quality over quantity... Force >> any amount of discard.

I disagree. If you want to count the pros of Force. You can't ignore the cons. Thoughtseize/Duress show your everything in your opponents hand, lets you hand pick how best to hurt them, and what exactly their game plan will be, and how best to counteract it. A first turn Thoughtseize usually tells pretty much every move that your opponent will be making for the next few turns. It will tell you how much you can hurt them by focusing on LD, what color to cut them off from, and whether to play your threat now, or later. And this is all on top of letting you rob your opponent of their very best card. That's insanely helpful information in every possible setting. Plus FoW often means that you'll be dumping another awesome blue card like Brainstorm just to play it. That's usually quite a setback for yourself as well.

Eva Green proves that discard can be every bit as potent a weapon as countermagic.

Edit:
FYI, Spell Snare hits Pridemage, Stingscourger, Echoing Truth, Smother... just to name a few.

Yes, but are those really anywhere near as prominent as StP, Path, Oblivion Ring, Krosan Grip, Snuff Out, Wrath etc? Pridemage maybe. But the rest you named are very niche cards that maybe one deck in the whole format plays. 90%+ of the artifact/creature kill played in the format doesn't have a 2cc. I would say that more than 50% of the removal played in the format consists of StP by itself.

Anyways, I've spend too much time on this site today rather than working. I'm going to try to take a break from posting here for the rest of the day. I hope you guys understand.

It was fun going back and forth with you keys. You made some good points. :)

[keys]

Eva Green proves that discard can be every bit as potent a weapon as countermagic.


Really.


Yes, but are those really anywhere near as prominent as StP, Path, Oblivion Ring, Krosan Grip, Snuff Out, Wrath etc? Pridemage maybe. But the rest you named are very niche cards that maybe one deck in the whole format plays. 90%+ of the artifact/creature kill played in the format doesn't have a 2cc. I would say that more than 50% of the removal played in the format consists of StP by itself.

They're more prominent than Oblivion Ring and Wrath.

Add Diabolic Edict, Warren Weirding, Smash to Smithereens, Disenchant, and Naturalize to my list.

[santeria]

Smash to Smithereens, Disenchant, and Naturalize to my list.

what decent decks play those ? even if they brainstormed their swords away or cast it. swordsing a nought is going to give your opponent 12 life. seems like that would equal out to enough turns for them to recover.

you should call this deck noughty eva.

:wink:

[Tangle.Wire]

Keys is alright, i also tried to play stifle/nought in my tempo ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, also team america is quiet most same agressive but has no way to safe the dreadnought so any artifact/creature removal will resolve and handle the dreadnought.

Quiete for this reason they play goofy+stalker and are able to play stifle for disruption instead of keeping it for a dreadnought.

So keys is pretty correct, notice that dradstill is the only good package for dreadnoughts as it regenerates card disadvantage by countertop/standstill stalling.

[lorddotm]

You are wrong, keys is right. This deck cannot protect a Dreadnought.

To protect a Dreadnought one must use CounterTop to be able to consistantly stop every possible threat that comes at it. Your deck cannot do this. Discard is not a viable way to protect a Dreadnought for THREE turns. Also Pridemage is about as common as Path, which is very common since the deck to beat right now is Zoo.

Now this point of moot since I believe Dreadnought to be a terrible choice for a meta packed with so much hate.

Lastly, Vision Charm... seriously?? How would Force/Trickbind not just be better?

[chokin]

you should call this deck noughty eva.

:wink:

This.

Discard is sort of like preemptive counters, but your selection limited to what they already have. Yes, you can disrupt their strategy and show you information. No, it's not exactly like a counterspell.

Counters wait until they use the mana to cast a bomb, and then you stop it, wasting their mana and card. And the "free" counters allow you to go balls to the walls. Discard is still fighting for your mana.

Goblins gives this deck trouble because you aren't guaranteed a Dreadnought on turn 2 to stop it. There will be times when you have no blockers and that turn one Lackey just connected to give you a headache like SGC or Chief. Goblins also have Stingscourger and/or Warren's Weirdings to deal with your threats. They can always Matron to get them.

Hypothetically speaking, how does your deck successfully recover from a couple Wasteland/Stifle that's backed by counters (Tempo Thresh, Team America, Dreadstill)? Or a Moon effect? Half of your lands are fetch, so Stifle is an easy mark. And one Wasteland is insanely powerful against this, as all of your lands that produce colors are nonbasic (minus one)

[Kuma]

It's worth noting that discard lets you see your opponent's hand to know if it's safe to cast a Phyrexian Dreadnought.

[Vacrix]

i like the concept. i think that fast nought/stalker/goyf is just going to get you killed unless you have information via thoughseize/duress. focus on wrecking your opponents mana base will be key to doing any damage. therefore, getting information on the mana base is crucial. im think more duress. that information is indispensable in trying to race aggro with nought or saving stifle for combo.

i like vision charm's synergy with tombstalker alot and its interaction with nought, and land distruption as well as its ability to protect your team. in fact, i think you should run more of them. it seems like it has alot of uses, but consider that the trickbind is excellent in the storm combo matchup.

also, drop green. you dont need goyf. it just clogs up your mana base. he doesnt have evasion and you have enough firepower with tombstalker or nought to win as long as you protect your team. unless you have some good sideboard choices (i dont see a sideboard) like krosan grip for 3sphere or CB i dont see any reason to splash for goyf. he doesn't have evasion like tombstalker and nought. if you want to keep green, i dont see why deed isnt in here.


those of you who are shooting this down. consider the way the deck plays. it reads the opponents hand, discovers how to deal with the mana base, distrupts the mana base in a way that attempts to facilitate a lock, drops creatures, and protects them to win. if the opponent brainstorm's away a path to exile or STP and you know the deck, then you just need to keep the opponent off the right colors. vision charm, discard, countermagic and land destruction is a preemptive way to protect your team. in conjunction daze is a hard counter, sinkhole leaves them stuck on the wrong mana, and you can race their guys with evasive guys. i think its a novel concept and not as fragile as has been presupposed with the idea of dreadnought as a win condition.


conclusively:

if you keep green, pernicious deed is good. goyf doesnt have evasion. besides, goyf and tombstalker are really anti synergistic and you can use that slot better. you should only need one guy to win if you can protect him effectively.

mystical tutor much? fetches sinkhole to blow up land, fetches thoughtseize to read the opponent, fetches vision charm to prepare to protect your guy, fetches stifle against storm. drop goyf, add tutor. it also gives you the opportunity to cut out your board for answers in postboard games.

also, unearth seems good. if you keep goyf, it can get goyf or nought into stifle. as long as your team doesnt hit STP or path to exile. also, hypnotic specter seems like a good SB choice for the control/combo matchup. hippie largely keeps the combo game in check and the control game in top deck mode. i say this because you can unearth hippie.

[Jon Stewart]

Naughty Eva is a great name for the deck. Nice suggestion. But I think Eva Naught expresses what the deck is better. (It's Eva Green but cutting out the chaff like Nantuko Shade and Hypnotic Specter for awesome blue cards).

Feel free to call the deck Naughty Eva though.

Remember, if you play this deck, this is what you get to play with (the naughty version from The Dreamers)...
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_wWtTeuD10x4/SZVpryYJiHI/AAAAAAAAKbw/rURBjz9gPzo/s400/Eva-Green-GQ-01.jpg
I found quite a few naughtier pictures of her, but none of them are worksafe unfortunately.


i like the concept. i think that fast nought/stalker/goyf is just going to get you killed unless you have information via thoughseize/duress. focus on wrecking your opponents mana base will be key to doing any damage. therefore, getting information on the mana base is crucial. im think more duress. that information is indispensable in trying to race aggro with nought or saving stifle for combo.

i like vision charm's synergy with tombstalker alot and its interaction with nought, and land distruption as well as its ability to protect your team. in fact, i think you should run more of them.

those of you who are shooting this down. consider the way the deck plays. it reads the opponents hand, discovers how to deal with the mana base, distrupts the mana base in a way that attempts to facilitate a lock, drops creatures, and protects them to win. if the opponent brainstorm's away a path to exile or STP and you know the deck, then you just need to keep the opponent off the right colors. vision charm, discard, countermagic and land destruction is a preemptive way to protect your team. in conjunction daze is a hard counter, sinkhole leaves them stuck on the wrong mana, and you can race their guys with evasive guys. i think its a novel concept and not as fragile as has been presupposed with the idea of dreadnought as a win condition.

I think you put it very well. I agree with you on all of that. Vision charm is indeed awesome. It serves so many different roles...

It's a much better dark ritual for tombstalker, reducing the cc by 5 mana

It's a combo with dreadnought

It's a mini giant growth for tarmogoyf that lets you do great combo tricks (people often swing into/or block a 1/2 (or 2/3) Goyf with Wild Nacatl or other creatures even when they know that you're playing Vision Charm because they think that you're bluffing) and you suddenly cast this and ruin their whole game plan.

It's a 1cc counterspell on all of your opponent's removal for dreadnought

And on top of all that, it's an Orim's Chant/Abeyance on your opponent against most of the decks in the format, by shutting them off from all colored mana for a turn.

Oops, I forgot to mention that Vision Charm screws up your opponent's Enlightened Tutors/Mystical Tutors, or their Painter's Servant and Belcher combos and such. Which is funny because just this week, I won a game because I used Vision Charm to wreck my opponents Enlightened Tutor for Painter's Servant.

I've won games because of each of those functions.

And I'm sure it won't be long till I win games because I use Vision Charm to phase out my opponent's Jitte or Juggernaut (I'm really anticipating 5/3 aggro to make a comeback with metalworker.)

But inspite of all the flexibiliy, I think three is the perfect number. There are indeed instances where I wished it was something else. Yes, they still usually served some function in those situations too usually by Abeyancing my opponent for the turn. But I don't like the idea of drawing two of them if I don't have a dreadnought in hand to play and protect with it.


drop green. you dont need goyf. it just clogs up your mana base. he doesnt have evasion and you have enough firepower with tombstalker or nought to win as long as you protect your team. unless you have some good sideboard choices (i dont see a sideboard) like krosan grip for 3sphere or CB i dont see any reason to splash for goyf. he doesn't have evasion like tombstalker and nought. if you want to keep green, i dont see why deed isnt in here.

if you keep green, pernicious deed is good. goyf doesnt have evasion. besides, goyf and tombstalker are really anti synergistic and you can use that slot better. you should only need one guy to win if you can protect him effectively.

mystical tutor much? fetches sinkhole to blow up land, fetches thoughtseize to read the opponent, fetches vision charm to prepare to protect your guy, fetches stifle against storm. drop goyf, add tutor. it also gives you the opportunity to cut out your board for answers in postboard games.

also, unearth seems good. if you keep goyf, it can get goyf or nought into stifle. as long as your team doesnt hit STP or path to exile. also, hypnotic specter seems like a good SB choice for the control/combo matchup. hippie largely keeps the combo game in check and the control game in top deck mode. i say this because you can unearth hippie.

I disagree with this though. Goyf is awesome. It has single handedly won me games against whole armies of goblins and many other weenie decks. Yes, it doesn't have evasion, and no it's no 12/12 trampler that is guarenteed to win you the game in two turns when played after a thoughtseize/duress (except on those surprising rare and unlikely occasions where your opponent topdecks like a mofo), but it's still a 2cc 4/5 or 5/6 is still a massive hurdle that's key component to making all sorts of swarm aggro matchups more favorable. Goyf and Tombstalker are not antisynergic (lots of successful decks play them along side each other, not just this one). They actually go great together especially with Vision Charm.

And yes, Goblins IS a favorable matchup for this deck. Those of you doubting it are basing it on theory rather than practical experience with this deck. You're almost guarenteed to play a turn two Goyf, or Dreadnought, or Tombstalker, and if not, you almost always can play one by turn three. And any of those guys are a pain in the ass for goblins and often are capable of winning you the game all by themselves if needed (but especially more so with the very potent disruption package). And even if Goblins manages to kill/bounce one of them, it's very likely that you already have another in your hand to replace it with. Yes, I have lost games to goblins. But it was almost never because of goblin lackey. It was almost always because of piledriver and me keeping a hand that I shouldn't have. And even then, I've been able to race piledriver on many occasions.

That's why I think playing 12 beaters any one of which single handedly can trump a whole army of aggro creatures is key. By playing 12, you make sure that if one of them does get killed inspite of the many ways you have to protect them, it's a piece of cake to replace it with another one.

About Mystical Tutor and Unearth, I'll have to pass. Mystical Tutor would be awesome if it put the card into your hand. But putting it on top of your library makes it a lot less appealing. And Unearth is way too conditional in this deck. It would be cool if you could unearth back a dreadnought without having to pay it's sacrifice cost, but you can't. I wouldn't play Unearth in any deck with less than 14 3cc or lower creatures. And even then, I would opt to play Reanimate over Unearth since that can grab your opponent's creatures too.

Deed is an awesome sideboard card. It's unneccesary in the maindeck, as I've only very rarely wanted a deed effect. But in the sideboard, both it and Krosan Grip will always have a home.

[Gibsonmac]

trickbind is strictly better than charm, all of this has been tested in a deck built around dreadnought > a deck with dreadnought thrown in for shits 'n giggles.

Also spell snare is replaced by spell pierce in some dreadstill lists, 3 islands suck, thoughtsieze with a brainstorm in response is pwnage for this 'protection' you claim to be more efficient than dreadstill, there really is no draw engine, getting a turn 2 dreadnought (as discussed in the dreadstill thread) is often times a mis-play, and harder than you might think (sticking it anyway). force is the ultimate protection.

The deck seems very fragile, how do you play against a decent tempo thresh player/zoo player/dreadstill player, all pack extreme hate/disruption for this deck.

[Jon Stewart]

trickbind is strictly better than charm, all of this has been tested in a deck built around dreadnought > a deck with dreadnought thrown in for shits 'n giggles.

Also spell snare is replaced by spell pierce in some dreadstill lists, 3 islands suck, thoughtsieze with a brainstorm in response is pwnage for this 'protection' you claim to be more efficient than dreadstill, there really is no draw engine, getting a turn 2 dreadnought (as discussed in the dreadstill thread) is often times a mis-play, and harder than you might think (sticking it anyway). force is the ultimate protection.

The deck seems very fragile, how do you play against a decent tempo thresh player/zoo player/dreadstill player, all pack extreme hate/disruption for this deck.

Of course you're not going to Dreadnought if your Duress/Thoughtseize told you that your opponent has an answer.

But Turn 2 dreadnought is almost never a mistake when it's following a turn one Duress/Thoughtseize, which is pretty much the only time I do.

I win 9 out of every 10 games where I play a first turn Thoughtseize/Duress and based on that information played a turn two Dreadnought. Even if they topdeck a StP. The 12 life you just gained often provides enough buffer that you can still race them using Tombstalker.

So if that's a misplay then I don't know what to tell you.

As for how you play zoo/dreadstill decks. Their hate hardly qualifies as extreme. They play a couple of removal spells that can kill Dreadnought, big whoop. It's not like Dreadnought is the only threat you play. You either thoughtseize/duress/hymn away their swords and other removal, or you stifle/sinkhole/waste them away from their removal color. And then kill them with either goyf/tombstalker/or dreadnought. It doesn't matter which, Tombstalker and Goyf are more than aggressive enough to win you the game on their own if you don't draw Dreadnought, or if Dreadnought gets destroyed by an unexpected topdeck.

Vision Charm is better than Trickbind. Only costing one mana, rather than two mana is a huge help. It either accelerates into or pumps/protects all of your creatures. It serves so many different roles in the deck that it's absurd.

It's a much better dark ritual for tombstalker, reducing the cc by 5 mana

It's a combo with dreadnought

It's a mini giant growth for tarmogoyf that lets you do great combo tricks (people often swing into/or block a 1/2 (or 2/3) Goyf with Wild Nacatl or other creatures even when they know that you're playing Vision Charm because they think that you're bluffing) and you suddenly cast this and ruin their whole game plan.

It's a 1cc counterspell on all of your opponent's removal for dreadnought

And on top of all that, it's an Orim's Chant/Abeyance on your opponent against most of the decks in the format, by shutting them off from all colored mana for a turn.

An Vision Charm even screws up your opponent's Enlightened Tutors/Mystical Tutors, or their Painter's Servant and Belcher combos and such. Which is funny because just this week, I won a game because I used Vision Charm to wreck my opponents Enlightened Tutor for Painter's Servant.

I've won games because of each of those functions.

And I'm sure it won't be long till I win games because I use Vision Charm to phase out my opponent's Jitte or Juggernaut (I'm really anticipating 5/3 aggro to make a comeback with metalworker.)

Trickbind is fantastic in the sideboard though, to bring in instead of Vision Charm when you know that your opponent plays 9+ fetchlands, or plays storm combo.

[Gibsonmac]

the 9 of ten games you win, are they sanctioned large events? just testing with local scrubs? are you playing against the best in the format or at least competent players?

I'm just saying most of what you are proposing has been tested extensively in dreadstill/dreadstalker/team america/lots of other decks with results contradicting what you claim, have you gone through those threads at all? the deck just seems to take away all the components that make stiflenought decks efficient such as draw engines, countertop, FoW.

Also with no countermagic, tempo thresh would rape you, completely denying blue mana(with only 3 non-basic sources) and zoo packs 4 pridemages, 4 PtE, with StP in the board, thats alotta answers. to all your threats that discard doesn't stop (evagreen gets rocked by zoo, ask Hatfield, and this deck runs less threats and less answers, no FoW etc.)

I like the Idea of the deck, but practical application seems lackluster, needs tweaking.

Also, there is a reason why every person in this thread has essentially said the same thing.

And when is the last time evagreen t8'd a 5k, or a ginormous Euro tourney? discard is not a reliable source of protection.

[Jon Stewart]

I'm not arguing that the deck doesn't need tweaking. Every new deck needs tweakings. But I reject your supposition that discard is any weaker or any more unreliable than blue counterspells. Counterspells, often cost you more (either having you discard another solid card to FoW, or paying two mana instead of one mana, or only being able to hit 2cc spells), than discard cards that do the same thing, but also give you a ton of info on what your opponent's whole gameplan is going to be.



I'm just saying most of what you are proposing has been tested extensively in dreadstill/dreadstalker/team america/lots of other decks with results contradicting what you claim, have you gone through those threads at all?

Yes I have read all of those threads. And your claim that these changes have been tested and proven inferior is false, straight up. Nothing like this was ever tested and the small changes that moved in this direction, like playing Sinkhole, Wasteland in Dreadstalker or splashing green for Goyf were actually found to make the deck better. The people who tried those changes had almost entirely positive things to say about them.


Also, there is a reason why every person in this thread has essentially said the same thing.

when is the last time evagreen t8'd a 5k, or a ginormous Euro tourney? discard is not a reliable source of protection.

And the way you talk down about Eva Green makes me think that you're just one of the many people on this site that grossly overvalues blue based decks and undervalues black based disruption as well as combo decks, stax, ichorid and proactive solutions in general, and grossly overvalues control in general. All any one has to do is take a look at how much focus and time and discussion on this site surrounds blue based decks on this site, and in the States in general, and how little focus and time goes into pursuing combo decks, or stax, ichorid etc especally considering how well those decks do overseas. The discrepency is pretty stark.

Even really subpar control decks like MUC, MBC, Train Wreck, and Quinn get a lot more discussion here than combo decks or stax decks that reliably top 8 all over the world. So yes, lots of players here overrate control and underrate just about everything else. But just because a lot of people here think that way, doesn't make it true. Stax, combo, ichorid, proactive answers and that black based disruption like Thoughtseize, Sinkhole, and yes even Hymn and other proactive solutions are every bit as potent as blue's counterbase when used properly.

Eva Green is a very solid deck precisely because of it's fantastic black disruption package. Anyone that actually plays it or plays against can attest to that fact. The one and only weakness the Eva Green has, or ever had was that it was forced to make due with subpar creatures like Nantuko Shade and Hypnotic Specter, which while awesome a few years ago, nowadays simply don't matchup to the likes of Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, Dreadnought, Progenitus etc.

As for Zoo. Yes, Zoo is slightly unfavorable for Eva Green, but guess what, Zoo gives every one of those decks you mentioned problems, tempo thresh, countertop, dreadstill, none of those decks can claim that they consistently beat zoo. They may beat Zoo 30-40% of the time (same as eva green) if they get really lucky and manage to resolve an early counterbalance and a top, both within the first couple of turns and Zoo doesn't have an answer, but that's not as common an occurance as blue players like to believe. Zoo's weakness rests with combo. The old control>combo>aggro>control is finally true again, but with the role of control displaced by aggro control decks.

[Gibsonmac]

And your claim that these changes have been tested and proven inferior is false, straight up.

J.V. from the dreadstill thread has LOTS of testing with charm, and is a top legacy player, in fact the last page or two from the thread right now talks about it.


Also, I Love Stax, Love Love Dragon Stompy, TES, and Zoo. I have played or am currently playing/playtested pretty much every deck in the format at some point, I like to think that I have more than a fair understanding of the decks in the format, and how the MU's generally work out. I in no way overvalue blue, In fact my tourney appearances do not often have blue on the decklist sheets. I just love to play in general, and a variety of decks, otherwise I get board.

And I have said this before, I do seem to hate on evagreen/the rock, mostly because it is a very common deck in my meta, mostly because the cards are easier to get ahold of relative to some decks. Its a boring match-up, DS pwns all day long, so does zoo, it does have a decent match against dreadstill... I just don't like the deck, I tried to like it, I wanted to like it, but I just hate it.

Which is why I was interested in this deck, a new spin and all. Please don't take this as an attack on you or your brain-child 'naughty eva.' I'm sensing you might be taking some of the critique's in that light, its not like that. just trying to offer some constructive criticism.

Also, still, What environments are the testing results in, Large entry High-K tournaments? local scrubs and the corner store casual night? top-end legacy players? what region of the States are you testing in, ie. NE,NW..?

[Jon Stewart]

The people that I play against are for the most part extremely skilled. Several of them regularly participate in tournaments and finish high as do I. I played in a very competitive playgroup in the Midwest for a while but have recently moved to the NE and found a fantastic and highly skilled playgroup here as well.


J.V. from the dreadstill thread has LOTS of testing with charm, and is a top legacy player, in fact the last page or two from the thread right now talks about it.

Yes, but he was testing Vision Charm in a build that plays neither Tombstalker nor Tarmogoyf (well some builds play Tarmogoyf, but most didn't).

Just the fact that Vision Charm was considered useful enough to warrant testing in a build that lacked both Tombstalker and Tarmogoyf because of all it's other functions should tell you a little bit about how flexible the card is.

Of course, my deck DOES play both Tombstalker and Tarmogoyf, which massively tilts the testing in favor of Vision Charm.

On top of all the functions of Vision Charm that made it worth testing in Dreadstill, Vision Charm enables second turn Tombstalker by reducing the cost of Tombstalker by 5 mana, and it also acts as a giant growth for Tarmogoyf and makes for a great combat trick.

And yes, based on my testing, in a build that does play Tombstalker, I can say definatively that Vision Charm is every bit worth it's slots.


I do seem to hate on evagreen/the rock, mostly because it is a very common deck in my meta, mostly because the cards are easier to get ahold of relative to some decks. Its a boring match-up, DS pwns all day long, so does zoo, it does have a decent match against dreadstill... I just don't like the deck, I tried to like it, I wanted to like it, but I just hate it.

I appreciate your honesty. But there is a world of difference between you hating a deck because a lot of people in your meta play it, and you hating a deck because it's a bad deck. It seems like your hate for black based disruption (not because it's bad, but because it shows up so often in your meta) is negatively diminishing your ability to fairly assess the power level of black based disruption.

Also your repeated claims that Dragon Stompy owns Eva Green all day long when even the most ardent Dragon Stompy players admit that Eva Green is a tough matchup for them suggests to me that you're either playing against mostly unskilled players, or you're not being entirely honest in your assessment.

[Gibsonmac]

My DS list is not stock(not that it should be discussed here anyway) it is tuned to dump the hand asap, and honestly I have yet to lose a tourney match against evagreen.

My dislike for evagreen is because I tried the deck and simply didn't like it, AND that it is common in my area.

Now for the relevant info...

My central argument/critique for your deck is not that 'it's bad' or your card choices are 'poor', I simply feel that there is not enough protection for nought, reliable protection.

You basically have TeamAmerica, evagreen, and and DreadStalker mushed into 'EvaNought/NoughtyEva'. As such, I feel you are focusing too heavily on the blackruption(which is powerful at times) forgoing on key protection in Blue (which is necessary at times).

You have 6 land, 3 non-basic blue sources, 3 non-basic green sources, and 1 basic swamp. A tempo thresh player would put you to bed, as soon as you pop a fetch they'll stifle, to which you're screwed (unless you happen to have another blue source that you hasn't been wasted) to which you will probably say vision charm is the answer, however it isn't, not to a heavier counter shell.

While I do believe vision charm to be stronger in this deck than in others, simply for the utility of dropping tombstalker quickly. I think more blue would be complimentary and natural to the deck.

It would provide protection, (zoo will always have more answers than your 3 charms) draw engines, and card advantage... maybe BOB with top would work.

You run goyf and stalker as back-up threats, which are fine and capable on their own... but discard as protection doesn't work out as well in this deck like in evagreen, simply because you have 8 threats (as opposed to 16ish) and 4 bombs (which is a two for one combo, and you use the charm as removal protection).

so with all of the card disadvantage, and non-reliable protection for the fatties, I feel you should go one way or the other, not walk in both worlds... the success that stiflenought decks find, is because the deck is built to accommodate the 2for1 combo, and protect it while in play... The success that evagreen decks have is the decks are built around the disruption, and knowing that discard cannot reliably protect all of their dudes all the time, they play more 'definate threats' (not 2fr1's) so they take that into consideration in the design.


You've got a lot of hybrid engines going on here, but I think that they are weaker to their counterparts simply because those decks are completely built and designed around said engines, I think a little more focus would be beneficial.

[Jon Stewart]

The engines actually work very well in this deck. I'm not sure why you're convinced that they shouldn't in theory, but in practice, they work great. And yes the discard has been fantastic. I really do find that Thoughtseize/Duress supplants the need/role of Force of Will without the card disadvantage and the inconsistency that comes from having to get rid of what is usually a very powerful blue card.

But if you have such a strong personal preference for playing blue countermagic over black disruption, you're more than welcome to go...

-4 Hymn to Tourach
-1 Duress

+4 Force of Will
+1 Daze/Vision Charm

Then you have Thoughtseize, Daze and FoW (alongside the very potent raping your opponent's manabase plan) to protect your early beat sticks and help them go the distance.

I honestly think it makes the deck worse because I've won so many games of the back of Hymn to Tourach completely raping my opponent's hand/gameplan, but it's your call.

[J.V.]

Yes, but he was testing Vision Charm in a build that plays neither Tombstalker nor Tarmogoyf (well some builds play Tarmogoyf, but most didn't).

On the topic of making claims without testing or in this particular case researching... I play Tarmogoyf in Dreadstill and have since about a month after Rodney (Roodmistah) and the rest of my team made Dreadstill. I've said on numerous occasions that I think Dreadstill is just sub-par without them. As for Vision Charm, it is situationally better but Trickbind is ALWAYS great, I'd rather Stifle/Trickbind a fetchland than save a Goyf or Nought about 8/10 if your if the situation is arising for you often where you feel you need to phase out a nought/goyf/etc to win then your probably not playing very well. As for the idea that Hand Disruption is better than Force and Counterbalance at protecting a Dreadnought, I'd have to 100% disagree with you, the fact of the matter is with the exception of Zoo every (relevant) deck that can answer a Nought runs Brainstorm, which makes your argument not only flawed, but I'd go as far as to say wrong. Another thing to consider is that hand disruption does nothing against a top-decked answer and that it is significantly weakened by a resolved Sensei's Divining Top.

and to Gibsonmac:
I wouldn't go nearly as far as to call myself a top Legacy Player, but thanks all the same for the compliment.

[Jon Stewart]

Which is precisely why I stated that some builds of Dreadstill play Tarmogoyf, though most do not. Or did you not read what you quoted. My point was that while some builds of Dreadstill play Tarmogoyf, NONE of them play Tombstalker.

Yeah, if I wasn't playing Tombstalker, Trickbind may have the advantage, but the fact is I do. And when I am playing four copies of a broken card that gets it's casting cost reduced by five by Vision Charm, that along with all of Vision Charm's other functions, and that it only costs one mana to cast gets the edge by a significant margin.

And my point is not that discard is better than FoW at protecting Dreadnought. My point was that discard (Thoughtseize/Hymn) does a better job of than FoW at winning me games. I honestly don't care as much if a threat of mine get's hit by removal, as I do whether I rape my opponent's hand, manabase and disrupt the hell out of their gameplan. Thoughtseize giving you advance notice of your opponent's deck, manabase, and general gameplan, Hymn to Tourach basically forcing them to the equivalent of mulliganing twice, usually making their keepable hands, unkeepable, and their mana development severely stilted, are more valuable functions to me than what FoW offers.

For every game where FoW is more useful to you than Thoughtseize, there will be two games where you will be forced to keep an extremely strong blue card (Stifle, Daze, Charm, Brainstorm), in your hand rather than playing it to advance your game plan, because you need to instead use that card as Force fodder. Every time you use FoW, you use up two very strong business spell slots, not one. Everytime you Force, you're essentially also Hymn to Touraching yourself. Yes, FoW is definately worth those sacrifices. Because it is very good despite those problems. So if I were to build a 64 card deck, FoW would be the next four cards I would add. But for the reasons above, I have come to realize that Hymn/Thoughtseize supplement Sinkhole, Wasteland, Stifle etc better, and that every single slot in my deck is better served with the card it runs now than it would be by FoW.

But hey card choices are a subjective experience. Some cards simply work better according to your personal playstyle/meta/previous experience. Which is why I already wrote that if you have a strong personal preference for playing blue countermagic over black disruption, you're more than welcome to go...

-4 Hymn to Tourach
-1 Duress

+4 Force of Will
+1 Daze/Vision Charm

The fundamental gameplan isn't altered too horribly by going this route (though I do believe it hurts your overall gameplan). But yes, it does let you better protect your threats (at the cost of better disrupting your opponent).

As for your personal experiences with Vision Charm vs. Trickbind in Dreadstill. Even if you were playing Tombstalker, which is a critical aspect of what makes Vision Charm so good, your testing does not in any way translate to this deck. I have no doubt that you know dreadstill very well. But if you do, the first thing that you should realize is that Eva Nought is NOT Dreadstill. Eva Nought is far more focused on early game disruption, than midgame control. Eva Nought wins by throwing your opponent's gameplan into the trash bin well before your third turn. Dreadstill has a ver different gameplan. So please don't think your experiences with Vision Charm, Trickbind, Countertop or even FoW in Dreadstill translate over to this very different deck. That would almost like claiming that because 1-2 Fireblast (or Lightning Bolt) works so well in your testing of Zoo, that Dragon Stompy should start playing it.

[Jon Stewart]

Well, like I posted before, I have been playing the deck with these changes and I have to admit that it's also very strong.

-4 Sinkhole
-1 Duress

+4 Force of Will
+1 Daze

Yes I definately miss the ability of Sinkhole to completely wreck my opponents hands gameplan or even colorscrew them outright out of the game with the help of Stifle and Wasteland. So I'm not at all sure if it's worth it. But between...

4 Thoughtseize,
4 Daze,
4 Hymn/Duress
3 Vision Charm and
4 FoW,

A full third of the deck that can be used to protect Dreadnought...

It makes it close to impossible for opponents to kill dreadnought within the one or two hits it takes for Dreadnought to win the game outright. Thank god for trample damage.

[Jim Higginbottom]

Only a terrible dreadstill player would not be running goyf.

[Gibsonmac]

4 Thoughtseize,
4 Daze,
4 Hymn/Duress
3 Vision Charm and
4 FoW,



So this is your current spell base? looks much stronger than the previous incarnation, I assume 4 stifle are in the list as well...

[Jon Stewart]

Thanks. Yes, that's the current spellbase Im trying, and yes I also play 4 Stifle and 4 Brainstorm but didn't include them since that was just a list of cards I play that can be used to protect Dreadnought, though I guess you can argue that Stifle does protect Dreadnought from Seal, Deed, Qasali Pridemage etc

The only difference from my previous iteration was that I replaced Sinkhole with FoW. But I keep going back and forth on that. Both Sinkhole and FoW are awesome.

[Jon Stewart]

Only a terrible dreadstill player would not be running goyf.

And what exactly is your point, Dreadstill has never played Ztombstalker which is a key part of the reason why Vision Charm is so good here.

[Gibsonmac]

Any tourney finishes/reports yet?

[Kanabo]

Dreadstill HAS played Tombstalker, its just not as common, and s usually a alternate wincon.

also...what makes this better than TA? TA seems more consistant.

[Jon Stewart]

Please read the OP, I explain there why I find 12 threats far more consistent than 8 threats.

Gibsonic, No I havent yet had a chance to take this deck to any sanctioned legacy events, I plan to attend the next decent sized one we have locally and Ill post a report once I do.

[Gibsonmac]

Read the OP, I explain there why I find 12 threats far more consistent than eight threats there.

And no I have yet to take this deck to an official tourney yet, I plan to the next decent sized one we have locally and Ill post a report once I do.

cool man, interested in hearing how it does... like I said initially, the deck intrigues me.

[Jon Stewart]

All of my magic playing unfortunately fell by the wayside for the past several weeks but now that I'm once again employed, I'm about to undust my collection and start playing again.


Dispel U
Instant
Common
Counter target instant spell


I feel that Dispel from Worldwake is exactly what this deck is looking for. All removal in the current format is an Instant (StP, Snuff Out etc.). Spell Pierce while similar in function fails by being too easy to play around. It's not hard to play StP or Snuff Out with 2 mana open, and then if no Spell Pierce shows up, to simply play a Goyf or something. In fact, this scenario often happens inadvertantly (your opponent having two mana open while playing their removal without making a point of doing so).

You will often leave threaten your opponent from cracking their fetchlands by leaving a U open (for Stifle whether you have one in hand or not). Dispel gives this deck a great way to use this mana to protect your creatures from removal.

I am cracking this deck back out and Dispel will be replacing Hymn to Tourach and the deck will have any blue now that Force of Will may in fact replace Sinkhole as well.