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Gekoratel
12-02-2009, 11:48 AM
This weekend I played some Legacy in Bethlehem, PA with a CounterTop list I've been tuning. Here's what it looks like.

22 Lands
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
6 Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest

3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 Daze
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
3 Firespout
2 Veldalken Shackles
4 Force of Will

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Sower of Temptation

SB:
2 REB
2 BEB
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Vendilion Clique

R1 - Dave with 4c Landstill
Game one goes really long with me trying to apply pressure with CB lock and Goyf while also not over-committing into an EE@2, a bit later in the game he starts making some really lose plays like Swords a Goyf taken with Shackles and then running out another Goyf... thanks for the life. After that I stole his other Goyf and was able to start beating down before he could get an answer. I also made a mistake this game of not playing around Mana Leak I kinda forget they run the card in Landstill and could have played an Island which was just sitting in my hand before running down my first Shackles.

SB
-3 Firespout -2 Sower -1 Ponder, -2 Daze
+2 Krosan Grip +1 Ancient Grudge +3 Vendilion Clique +2 REB

My plan post-board is to try and tempo/aggro him out if I can since I know if it gets to the late game I have very little shot between EE/Ruins recursion and Crucible + Waste. Regardless this is easily one of my worst matchups with the deck.

G2 - I'm not able to apply that much pressure and he has Mana Leaks for both of my Vendilion Cliques and then Swords for my Goyfs and he was able to keep me off CB with EE. When we started game 3 there wasn't a lot of time left on the clock and the game ended in a draw but he had an advantageous board position

R2 - Slow guy with Natural Order CB

G1 - I'm able to take control of the game early with a 3-1 Firespout killing two Pridgemages and a Noble Heirarch after that I snare a Goyf and drop down CB while he’s out of relevant spells.

SB
-1 Ponder -1 Daze -1 Brainstorm -1 Firespout //Go go randomness aka bad
+2 REB +2 Krosan Grip

G2 - I'm able to Snare his attempt at CB and then when I go to play Top he goes for Force which I REB, I also have a 2-1 Firepout on him and am getting much more value out of all of my cards than he his. He has 2 Rhox War Monk which I don't fight over since my one Goyf is keeping them bay. I beat in my Goyf it trades with a War Monk after double block and my 2nd Goyf + CB lock gets the job done. Towards the end of the game he cashed in his own top and fetched EOT for the land that’s a creature and went for Natural Order but I had Force.

R3 - GB Aggro

I lose my 3rd die of the day which is quite unfortunate because I've seen this guys deck and I think it’s hard to lose on the play since I have access to dropping Top before getting Duressed or protecting my hand via Brainstorm. It also makes it easier to answer Ritual->Hyppy on the play.

G1 - He opens up on Duress taking my Top which didn't hurt me that much thankfully as I had Brainstorm, his second turn consisted of Duressing me again which I BSed in response to and then dropping the rack. At this point I'm not very worried because his draw is really slow. I drop a CB which I put on top with BS and have a Goyf hiding on top my library. Sadly I have 2 Goyfs but no green source yet. He has a decent read that I put a 2cc on top and instead of going for a 2 drop passes the turn. I draw Goyf and pass it back. He runs down a Hyppy which I don't have an answer to; I have Firepout but not Red or Green, Green being what I need to kill it and drop Goyfs. I rip Tropical like a champion and kill the Hyppy. After that I draw a Swords to go with my Tundra and drop both Goyfs which makes his life total quite low especially since he got a Bob through. I win a couple turns later.

SB
I just brought in the Vendilion to have more answers to Hyppy I also thought it might be able to ambush a Bob since all of his removal is sorcery speed. Being up a game if I see Choke post-board I'll bring in Krosan Grip but as I didn't see any artifacts or enchantments I care about I didn't bring it in. Also I never saw the card when he played vs. Dave who he likely would have brought it in, he does have Deed but I think that card is just awful in an aggro deck and don't honestly care if he resolves it.

-1 Ponder -1 X(maybe Daze?)
+2 Vendilion

G2 - He keeps a one lander on the play with Ritual -> Hyppy, my hand is 2 Top, 2 Vendilion, Firespout, 2 Lands including 1 Fetch, 1 BS. I play a land and pass the turn with the Hyppy trigger on the stack I cast Brainstorm not seeing a Swords which is unfortunate and hide one card and put 2nd Top two down with plans of shuffling it away unless he hits my other Top. He hits one of my Vendilion, I play Top and Fetch and ship the turn. On his attack step I fetch and look but don't find Swords, his next hit takes my Firespout, thank god I had 3 answers to Hyppy. I top into another land and pass the turn, in his attack step I cast Vendilion seeing Maelstrom Pulse, Goyf, 2 Krosan Grip since he has so many answers and few threats I decide to let him keep the cards rather than drawing him into 2nd Goyf or a Bob. After trading he drops Goyf which I don't have an answer to Goyf gets in some beats and then he finds a Bob which I also can't answer, I top into Shackles which doesn't do me a whole lot and then find CB. So I drop CB with Shackles on top and pass the turn he doesn't go for Grip EOT which is frustrating since its prob the correct play. It doesn't matter as I get beatdown a couple turns later, after he Pulses my Shackles. It was also pretty poor that he didn't kill my Top at any point with his Grips but he would realize this mistake and remedy it game 3.

G3 - Finally on the play, I have a decent hand while his is slow once again just Duressing me but my turn 1 Top doesn't care about Duress. On his turn 3 I cast Vendilion after his draw step and see Goyf, K-Grip, Forest, Swamp, Pulse. He knows that I have Sower so he can't afford to drop the Goyf yet, so I take the Pulse. He plays K-Grip on my top but I'm able to Brainstorm into a 2nd. He doesn't drop the Goyf. Vendilion gets in for some damage and then he drops Bob passing the turn, with an active Top and 16 life I'm not that worried and I steal his Bob. I beat down with Vendilion after stealing on his turn he drops the Goyf which resolves, I top in response to Bob get Land + my own Goyf. I top and don't see anything relevant so I play the fetch and beat with my flying Fairies. He attacks and then drops Deed which he ripped that turn, I had perfect information on hand because he played the wrong land one turn. He only has 2 Mana up so has the ship the turn to me, I reveal for Bob not taking any damage and attack with the fliers. On his turn he pops Deed @ 4 and I tap to draw with Top he goes for a Goyf which he ripped but I have hardcast Daze to stop it. After that I get both Shackles and CB/Top down to his 0 cards so clearly he draws a 2nd Deed, I'm not able to find a 3cc or Force so it resolves. He blows it up and I find a 2nd Shackles + a Goyf and play the Goyf. I attack and he’s forced to draw and animate his Factoires to block I steal one the other dies blocking and I kill him in a couple turns.

R4 - Tempo Thresh

G1 - He has a slow hand with no creature for the first 3 turns which I always love to see, my hand has Top, Ponder, 3 Lands, Goyf, Daze. I play Ponder finding 2 more lands and pass the turn. My 2nd land gets Wasted and fetch land stifles but I still have lands coming, eventually he goes for a Goyf which I'm able to Snare and a get a CB through with Force backup although he didn't have Snare or Force of his own. After that CB/Top did its thing he was able to get a Vendilion through but I killed it with the trigger on the stack. A 2nd attempt at Vendilion many turns later was stopped by BS + putting Spout on top. He ends up conceding many turns later as I have down Shackles and CB lock.

SB
I don't really like REB in this matchup and mainly brought it in if he has Trygon. Boarding in Vendilion seems weak as it gives him targets for Fire/Ice and Bolt.
-1 Ponder
+1 REB

G2 - He has an average hand and on my turn 2 I play Top he Forces I Force back mainly as the Force and blue card weren't that exciting not because I really needed top he Forces again going down to 1 cards. He drops Goyf and Goose but my hand is Goyfx2 and Swords. I kill his Goyf drop my own, draw a 3rd Goyf (Christmasland) and win shortly.

I'm forced to play round five despite being X-0-1 because it is only five rounds with 52 people. They had a time frame they needed to get finished by and therefore cut a round.
R5 - Belcher

G1 - I keep a hand without access to turn 1 Force but does have Ponder/BS/CB/Firespout if he doesn't have the turn 1 EtW or Belcher I should be fine. He ended up miscounting his mana and was off by one to go off so he passes the turn after playing a Land he found with Land Grant. But his hand was still quite strong just needs any fast mana. I cast the Ponder and find a Force. He goes all in on Infernal Tutor and I Force it. I get down CB and lock up the game. It takes me about 15 turns to find a Tarmogoyf, not an exaggeration, but I finally do and it kills him.

SB
I left in the Swords out of respect to Xantid Swarm which I didn't know if he was running it, turns out he was but he only boarded in two to force me to keep Swords but not necssarily see it that often.

-2 Sower -2 Shackles
+2 BEB +1 Ancient Grudge +1 Vendilion Clique

G2 - I have a hand with Brainstorm, Force, Daze, and some other decent stuff. Lucas leads with Land into Tinder Wall and then Lotus Petal, after that he goes for Chrome Mox. I have a mental fart and don't Force it for some reason. If he has any other fast mana in the grip then I'm screwed regardless but no reason I shouldn't go for there. His 8 guys kill me and I have 0 outs anyway.

G3 - I mull into a hand of Brainstorm, CB, 3 Lands, Swords. I play a land and pass. He casts Land Grant and shows me a Grip of 1 ESG, 2 Tinder Wall, Seething Song, Belcher, LED, Chrome Mox. He runs down both Tinder Walls and plays Seething Song so that Daze wont' stop him and casts Belcher. I draw BEB, land and then ... Force of Will, how lucky. I counter it pitching the BEB land a CB. Then I draw into Goyf after fetching and hit a grudge which I use to hit his LED and Mox the turn before I would win with Goyf.

T8 - Josh with 4c Landstill

G1 - We both mull to 6 this game and I have an alright hand, which gets a CB down he plays an EE at 3 but I'm able to find Firespout to counter it. Then he goes for an EE@4 which resolves. He blows up the CB and attempts a Standstill, I top into a Snare and counter it then he plays a 2nd which resolves. He already has down a Factory so I can't really slow play anything I drop the Top he draws 3 I also play a Goyf which is killed by Swords. The game goes as this matchup usually does he answers my threats via Swords + EE and then eventually locks me out with EE + Ruins recursion. He also generated a lot of card advantage via Crucible + Fetch turning Brainstorms into Recalls pretty much.

SB - Same as R1 as their running same 75

G2 - I mull to 5 against his 7 can't apply anywhere near enough pressure and later in the game he's able to get Crucible + Waste which is GG for my deck.

I really liked my deck against most of the metagame, the last minute addition of Vendilion seemed pretty nice and had more applications than the Duress's I was thinking about running would have and let me squeeze in an Ancient Grudge in place of U. Sea also which is a plus. Not sure what to do about the Landstill matchup because piloted by a mediocre player I still felt like I was pretty far behind in the matchup.

Nightmare
12-02-2009, 12:34 PM
Excellent report, Jeff. I always like reading your reports, even when it isn't on decks I discuss with you.

A few list questions:

Did you miss Academy Ruins? I played a few rounds last night without it myself, as I forgot to take it out of my EDH deck, and honestly I didn't miss it at all. Having all Islands in the deck was nice, since it meant I never got stuck with the "1U on turn 2" awkwardness.

3 Tundra/2 Volc - This number seems backwards to me. With only three spells in the deck requiring White, and 6 requiring (most of the time, anyway) Red, I'd think you would want more red sources. Personally, my split is 4/2/1 on duals, but I can understand the want for more. I only run StP in the board, but it's not that big a difference. It's rare that I don't have access to it when I need it with 8 fetches, though. Does your opinion vary?


Other than that, our lists are pretty similar. A few of the numbers are different here and there, but I'm glad to see all the same cards in the 75. I haven't played with Clique much at all, but it seems to be getting popular, so maybe I'll give it a whirl.

sauce
12-02-2009, 01:08 PM
Cant you fit 1 forest in the main ??
I know I don't like it myself either because of shackles, but I think in a competitive tournament, its almost a must...

Nightmare
12-02-2009, 01:11 PM
Cant you fit 1 forest in the main ??
I know I don't like it myself either because of shackles, but I think in a competitive tournament, its almost a must...

It's not. Not even a little. For all the same reasons Tempo Thresh doesn't play one.

sauce
12-02-2009, 01:18 PM
It's not. Not even a little. For all the same reasons Tempo Thresh doesn't play one.

to be locked out by crucible + wasteland?
i guess i just don't like the idea of that beating me.

Gekoratel
12-02-2009, 01:28 PM
@Academy Ruins - Without EE there's no way I can see myself running the card and Ruins was unimpressive for me at the last Legacy event I played with the Trinket Mage package which is how I came to my current list.

@ Dual Count - My dual land split is likely incorrect but I found that since people didn't know what I was running that the Tundras were getting hit much more often than Volcanic, likely out of respect of Rhox War Monk. But if my opponents have perfect information than going 3 Volc 2 Tundra seems better. It could also be that 3 3 3 and 5 basics may be the way to go.

@ Forest - The problem with running a Forest is that I'd almost never want to see if in my opening hand as it's terrible with Shackles and CB. My Landstill matchup is terrible so I need to try and get lucky hitting all my colored spells so sure I could fetch for Forest over Tropical but I'm still going to need to fetch for Volcanics and Tundras. I have not played the Stax matchup at all so I don't know how necessary Forest is in that MU. Even with all these factors Legacy has an ungodly number of decks so Stax and Landstill combined will prob only be 5-10% of a given metagame and I'd rather have my deck be better vs. the other 90%.

Glad you liked the report.

Nightmare
12-02-2009, 01:45 PM
Interesting. Looking over the list, I didn't even notice you had cut the Trinket Package. I suppose without EE, Ruins loses a lot of value. I'll give it some thought.

In my list, I'd never go to three Tundra, because game 1 it's strictly worse than basic Island, and I'd never want to see it in play. Games two and three it has more value, but I still believe it's less important than any other land.

Gekoratel
12-02-2009, 04:08 PM
You may want to look at the list with a bit more detail I'm running 3 Swords in the MD with 0 cards in the board of that color. If it was just for 3 boarded Swords then I would run two Tundra. The list is somewhere between Probasco and Supreme Blue I'd say.

[EDIT] - Didn't realize you were referring to your list so never mind my first sentence.

Nightmare
12-02-2009, 04:30 PM
You may want to look at the list with a bit more detail I'm running 3 Swords in the MD with 0 cards in the board of that color. If it was just for 3 boarded Swords then I would run two Tundra. The list is somewhere between Probasco and Supreme Blue I'd say.

I was referring to my list, which we've discussed over PM. I run my StPs in the board, and only run a singleton Tundra. I suppose that ultimately, adding a second Tundra wouldn't have much of a negative impact to my list.

Anusien
12-02-2009, 06:37 PM
Did you really find the need for Firespout and StP maindeck? Were you not expecting any CB mirrors?

Edit: and yes, if you run 4 StP, you should have at least 2 Tundra. By and large, the decks you want StP against have access to land destruction, and they're going to hit Tundras ASAP.

The thing about Forest is that it sucks. You don't beat Blood Moons with Goyfs. And you're not expecting to get there against Landstill in the long game (one where they've Wastelanded three Tropical Islands) with Goyfs, are you? In that sort of world, you have to win off Shackles and CB.

Can you talk about why you got rid of EE? I really like having it; I like how it deals with stuff like Elspeth, Crucible, and Survival in game 1. Plus, it's fine against Zoo and slightly faster.

Gekoratel
12-02-2009, 07:24 PM
I like Firespout a lot as its one of the better 3cc spells in the deck, its strong against Zoo, Goblins, and Merfolk and is ok against Tempo Thresh. Swords are a concession to the fact that the formats gotten a bit faster namely with the rise of Zoo. EE is fine in that matchup but killing a Nactal before it damages you as opposed to getting hit once is much nicer.

As for the mirror match I think this list is much worse at facing the mirror than the GP Probasco list but against decks like Supreme Blue and Baseruption I like my odds because of the power of Shackles & Sower. I have Daze/Force/Snare to try and keep them off of the CB game 1 but I won't deny that once its resolved on there side I'm likely in trouble. Post-board I get access to 2 REB's and 2 Grips to help in that fight. I played a Top 8'd with a more traditional Probasco list about a month ago but I was winning matches on the back of CB/Top interaction not because of Trinket Mage or EE both of them were marginal. It also sucks that EE doesn't have a relevant CC for CB, and the traditional Probasco list has two less 2cc spells.

Anusien
12-02-2009, 10:48 PM
I like Firespout a lot as its one of the better 3cc spells in the deck, its strong against Zoo, Goblins, and Merfolk and is ok against Tempo Thresh. Swords are a concession to the fact that the formats gotten a bit faster namely with the rise of Zoo. EE is fine in that matchup but killing a Nactal before it damages you as opposed to getting hit once is much nicer.
Sure, my question was EE in place of Firespout, not EE in place of StP. It's possible that it just isn't good enough against Zoo. I don't know if I buy that logic. It's certainly better against things like Goblins; I don't know which one is better against something like Merfolk.

You're not THAT far off in the relevant cards department from BrassDeck. My local metagame is distorted; it's basically all blue control decks. I'm guessing the global trend is in favor of aggression, in which case this list makes more sense.