[Primer] "Trisomy 21" / Bgw Loam Control

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

Hey guys,

actually I think you hardly know me. I'm a Magic-player from the west of Germany and, after playing about two years of Legacy, I switched to Vintage at the beginning of this year. Before switching the format I played a deck, which I developed: „Graboids!“. Here is the primer for reverence: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11215 . It's a Brg Loam Control-deck, which tries to screw the opponent with many landdestruction-spells. The problem of this deck was that it was really chunky. Aggro-decks just smashed your face in most cases and Combo-decks did that even more. The other Matchups were pretty even, but not good enough. Because of its slowlyness the deck lost to itself pretty much. After realizing that I put away this deck and almost quit Legacy to play Vintage.

About a half year after quitting my best friend showed me a deck which abuses Spellweaver Helix with Raven's Crime and Time Warp to generate many turns (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25376). After that I took up my old deck to play it with the Helix and I realized that I have to cut red because it wasn't that good. Sure, with red you got Burning Wish, but in almost all cases you want the card you wished for now and not after resolving one spell.
With the release of Alara Reborn Maelstrom Pulse was played for a while, but I also tested Vindicate in the slot and in the end Vindicate proved to be better because it strengthened the game plan of the deck: Mana denial. It flexibility really made it stronger and imprinted in a Spellweaver Helix with Raven's Crime / Life from the Loam it was even better than Time Warp.

This version made a few Top 8 in Iserlohn and Dülmen, two german tournaments with 50+ players, but the deck wasn't perfect at all. Two of my friends, who played the deck on the tournaments, said that Spellweaver Helix was okay or sometimes nice, but it was also win-more. I got the same results in my testings, so I cutted the Helix (because of form of a DNA-string it gave the deck its name: Trisomy 21 is the technical term for the Down-Syndrom; that's exactly what the deck does to the opponent ;)) and a few Raven's Crime.

After we tweaked the list a little bit, we got two different versions: one that played Swords to Plowshares and one that played Entomb. We piloted the deck at the Iserlohn Wintercup; the one with Entomb went just average, the one with Swords made the second place out of 83 people (Swiss: 5-1-1 and T8 to the finals with price split). At this point I was shure that the deck was competative.

So, here is the recent decklist:

// Lands
4 Barren Moor
1 Cabal Pit
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Polluted Delta
3 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
2 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs

// Creatures
1 Gigapede

// Spells
2 Raven's Crime
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Innocent Blood
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Mox Diamond
1 Worm Harvest
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Vindicate
4 Life from the Loam
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Coffin Purge
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Zuran Orb
SB: 4 Duress


Cardchoices

Starting with the lands you may see that this deck is playing just five Fetchlands which is quite a low number for a Loam-based-deck, but for this deck it's the perfect number. If you would add a few Fetchlands, the manabase would become fragile.
Cabal Pit is a great card against Aggrodecks because with Life from the Loam it is a recursive removal that could also handle creatures with toughtness up to 4.
The Cycling-lands are a recursive drawengine which sets you far ahead your opponent in drawing cards.
Against Wastelands from the opponent we are playing 2 Swamps and 1 Forest. The Plains isn't played because in this deck the Forest is more important to cast the Loam and to build up your game.

A mainpart of this deck is disruption and destruction. On almost every non-land-card is written “destroy” or “sacrifice”, or they help to find them.
The strategy of the deck is to screw the opponent. Sinkhole helps to follow the strategy, that’s why I think that this card doesn’t need any explanation.
Smallpox on the other hand needs to be explained. Sure, it destroys lands, but it also your own. What makes the card so great is that it trades 3:1 in most cases because you sacrifice and discard a land, which can be brought back on your hand with Life from the Loam. And you don’t have to sacrifice a creature because you don’t need one until you almost have won. Smallpox is also great on the draw when the opponent starts with land, creature and you with land, Mox Diamond, Smallpox. These starts are pretty hard for the opponent because it rips apart their basics to build up their game.
Vindicate is really flexible which makes it better than Maelstrom Pulse. Destroying a land is better than not finding a target for the Pulse because the only permanents on the opponents board in most cases are lands.
Wasteland is the last card in the deck which destroys lands. With Life from the Loam you can recure it and screw the opponent even more and after all it’s still a land which produces mana that is needed.
Innocent Blood stops creatures fast, so does Swords to Plowshares. The reason why the list just plays two of the Swords is that you need white to play it. You are just playing four green cards that you want to play early and six white, but fetching of green lands is essential for the deck. That’s why I think two Swords is the right number.
Engineered Explosives handles many creatures and more important, it destroys Aether Vial which is quite a problem for Trisomy 21.

To speed up our game a little bit we are playing Mox Diamonds which are also fixing the manabase. The Mox is good on the openinghand to e.g. play Smallpox at the first turn and rip apart the oppenents strategy, creatures and lands. It's also good against Wastelands to play Vindicates or Swords to Plowshares without a Scrubland.

Sensei’s Divining Top is a card that let end many games in a draw because many people don’t know how to use it. The Top is a strong card in this deck; it helps to keep the pressure on your opponent by finding cards to hate his board. It's also an proactive element against Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus of this deck. When the opponent actives them to remove the graveyard, you can tap the Top and dredge the Loam to protect it.
With Life in the grave you could also dig through your deck with the Top. If you don't like the first three cards, pay one mana, put the ability from the Top on the stack, in response tap it and dredge the Loam. Now you have got the Top as the first card and can dig two more cards. Furthermore you can stack the three cards in the order you would like to draw them.

Another card of the deck is Raven's Crime which defeats Control-decks alone in most cases, but it also helps in many other matchups e.g. to let the Goyf Sligh-player discard his burnspells when he hasn't got any land on his board.

The winconditions are Gigapede and Worm Harvest. The angry insect has got shroud, which makes it to an three-turn-clock in most cases. It also could kill Tarmogoyf and it is recurable.
Worm Harvest is the other killcondition, but it could also be a defensive part of the deck e.g. against Aggro-decks.
The best part of these to killconditions is that they aren't dead if the are in our graveyard.


Alternative cardchoices

I've playtested the deck often and tried a few cards in the maindeck. One of them was Entomb. Many of you may ask yourself why I don't play them. The answer is simple: It doesn't support the gameplan that much. In most cases you wish that Entombs where Swords to Plowshares because they are handling creatures which Entomb doesn't. Sure, Entomb puts you Life, Raven's Crime and even Wasteland and Cabal Pit in the graveyard, but it doesn't help much if your face is smashed by creatures in the first few turns.

Other cards I tested were Crime/Punishment and Pernicious Deed over Engineered Explosives. The problem of both is that they are too slow. You want to handle Aether Vials and nasty creatures as fast as possible and it isn't possible with C/P and Deed. Deed can handle many creatures and other things with one activation, but in most cases there aren't enough creatures that Deed would be better than EE.

Creatures like Tombstalker and Tarmogoyf are good cards, but they are bad in this deck. The good thing about our winconditions is that removal isn't useful against it and the opponent has got many dead cards in his deck. By playing non-shroud creatures the removal will become useful again and this is, in my eyes, bad. If you would ignore this negative aspect you have got also another one: deckspace. The space of the deck is pretty tight and you won't cut anything.


Sideboard and alternative Sidebaord choices

Coffin Purges are good against Survival and other Loam-decks. It isn't dead if you dredge it and can be played two times which is pretty good. In most situations it's better than Extirpate because Extirpate isn't useful when it got dredged in the graveyard.
Pithing Needle stops two problematic cards: Aether Vial and Sensei's Divining Top (when the deck also plays Counterbalance). Furthermore it stops Planeswalker, but the two artifacts above are the main reason to run it.
Engineered Plague helps in the Tribal-matchup.
The Zuran Orb in the Sideboard helps against Burn, Goyfsligh and burnspells in the Tempothresh-build.
Duress helps against combo, but I don't know if I just could ignore combo to help other matchups because Duress isn't affecting the combomatchup drastically.

Against Combo you could run Chalice of the Void in the board, but it is also affecting yourself. Extirpate is also an option for the board if Ichorid is becoming more popular (which is the case in Germany...).
I would advise against putting creatures in the Sideboard because it isn't good at all. The removal of the opponent isn't dead anymore and thats pretty bad.


How to play

The main goal of the deck is to hate the board of the opponent and build up your own pretty fast. After destroying all his lands, angry worms and insects beat the opponent to death. That's what the deck does and it does it pretty well.
And what is with graveyard-hate? Sure, it isn't nice at all, but it doesn't really affect the deck. In the first turns it just destroys the board and in most cases Life from the Loam isn't needed to keep the board clean. By keep the board clean graveyard-hate isn't that damaging. By removing the Loam the deck becomes a little bit slower, but it still can do many things the opponent hates. This doesn't mean that graveyard-hate isn't winning against this deck, but you need much more hate against it than against outher Loam-decks and if the opponent is lucky and has much hate and the mana to cast it, than it is okay that he is winning :).
Maybe you are asking yourself why we are just playing two cards out of 60 that let us win. The answer is: It's enough. It isn't unusual that the opponent is scooping and when he doesn't the two cards are enough, especially with Top and dredging.

I want to point out that, if you want to play Trisomy on tournaments, you should master it, which isn't easy. Especially to play it fast is pretty hard.


Matchups

Combo:
Bad. It's just bad. No comment ;).

Goblins:
The Vial, Lackey and hasty creatures are quite hard, especially the Vial. Preboard is the matchup in favor of Goblins, postboard in our favor.

Tempothresh / Canadianthresh:
Pre- and postboard really positive for us. We have got much more removal than they have got creatures. Just the burn sucks a little bit.

NQG with Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top:
Pre- and postboard positive. Just when the have got CB+Top AND enough mana it's getting hard. Here you have to play Explosives on 2 as fast as possible to prevent the lock.

Survival incl. Bant:
Positive, pre- and postboard. Survival needs mana... :).

Merfolk:
Preboard light bad to even for us. Postboard even to positive.

Goyfsligh:
The burn is pretty nasty, but the matchup is slightly positive for us, pre- and postboard.

Landstill:
Because in Germany Landstill isn't played anymore I couldn't test it enough. My results are a few month old and the deck was built differently.
Pre- and postboard positive.

Other Loamlists:
Who resolves the Loam first is probably winning. We have got landdestruction to prevent it. The matchup is even to slightly positive for us; pre- and postboard.

Controldecks like It's the Fear:
Post- and preboard. Slightly positive for us. If the could play Intuition on EE, Academy Ruins and Loam, it's not that good, but still winable.

Enchantress:
Almost all things that they are doing are fair. The only thing that shouldn't happen is that they resolve an Replenish. Pre- and postboard positive.


So, except for Goblins (or Elf-Survival) and Combo you would like to play against almost every deck. Especially the Aether Vial in the Goblin-decks is unfair... :).



Top 8s
- 5. out of 70 people: 09-13-2009, Iserlohn, Germany
- 5. out of 57 people: 10-11-2009, Dülmen, Germany (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29459)
- 7. out of 46 people: 11-07-2009, Italy (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30215)
- 2. out of 83 people: 11-14-2009, Iserlohn Legacy Cup, Germany (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30495)
- 6. out of 38 people: 11-15-2009, Iserlohn, Germany (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31093)
- 1. out of 45 people: 12-20-2009, Dülmen, Germany (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30796)
- Top 8 out of 65 people: 01-10-2010 GPT Eindhofen, Netherlands [lost the first round in the Top 8 to ANT] (http://forum.benelegacy.nl/viewtopic.php?p=48930#p48930)
- Split in the finals out of 37 people: 01-16-2010 GPT Düsseldorf, Germany (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31748 )



This is just a small primer on the deck (the german one was even double of that size). I hope you enjoyed it and looked over a few mistakes I made.
In the end I would like to thank my team that were testdummies. Thanks :).


PS.: All the Top 8's of the deck aren't on deckcheck, maybe I'll place them there in time. Furthermore I recognized that even in Italy (?) people are playing the deck: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30215
I'm honored, thanks :).


Brot_Ohne_Kruste

[Dark Zero]

Well, that's a very nice Primer for an awesome deck!

But I think you muddled your list a little bit, because you forgot the 3 Barren Moor. You really should add them. ;D

After a little playtesting I've to admit that the deck is even stronger than I thought. Up until now I ran the following list:

// Lands
1 Cabal Pit
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
3 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Barren Moor
4 Verdant Catacombs

// Creatures
1 Gigapede

// Spells
1 Worm Harvest
2 Raven's Crime
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Vindicate
4 Life from the Loam
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Mox Diamond
4 Innocent Blood

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 2 Coffin Purge
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Zuran Orb
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Sadistic Sacrament

After the first playtesting I would just run your manabase, because you really, really need the playset Bayou. I was to slow with 4 Moors way to often. You want to see them when you have Loam online or in the first turn if you're on the play, but elsewhere they are bad.

I also will change the sideboard. With the current one you couldn't stand a chance against combo and I'm unwilling to completely give up on that matchup. But the question is what should be in there and in which slot? After testing, I feel you don't really need the Sacrament/Extirpates.
Sacrament as a one-of is to slow against Combo, even with Duress. I think I will test something like CotV (any other suggestions?) in the slot of Sacrament/Extirpate because these are the choices I was not happy with.

These are my first impressions with this deck.

[Cthuloo]

We were already discussing your list a bit in the Pox thread. It looks very similar in it's mechanics to some Loam-Pox lists people (including me) are trying lately, yet more "extreme". I'm very interested in it, and plan to test it in the future.

For the moment I have a few questions/remarks:

You only have two win conditions, and, although they're pretty fast when they come online, you will often leave plenty of time to your opponent to recover from your initial disruption before finding one. This could be one of the reasons why you have such a bad combo mathcup: you can't back up your destruction with a fast enough clock
Again on the win-con: they're bot graveyard dependent, as the loam engine is. You said it's not a big problem, can you elaborate a bit? Could it be possible to add some factories, maybe in place of the cabal pit and one or two Moor/Thicket?
Don't you miss some turn one targeted discard like duress/thoughtseize? It looks like you want to clear the way to get your engine going
Have you considered the addition of Pernicious deed? I know that the worms and moxen are not good friends with deed, but it's a really powerful tool, and you can always make more worms, can't you? :tongue:


Anyways, congrats for the result and for the good job!

[Nekrataal]

We were already discussing your list a bit in the Pox thread. It looks very similar in it's mechanics to some Loam-Pox lists people (including me) are trying lately, yet more "extreme". I'm very interested in it, and plan to test it in the future.

For the moment I have a few questions/remarks:

You only have two win conditions, and, although they're pretty fast when they come online, you will often leave plenty of time to your opponent to recover from your initial disruption before finding one. This could be one of the reasons why you have such a bad combo mathcup: you can't back up your destruction with a fast enough clock
Again on the win-con: they're bot graveyard dependent, as the loam engine is. You said it's not a big problem, can you elaborate a bit? Could it be possible to add some factories, maybe in place of the cabal pit and one or two Moor/Thicket?
Don't you miss some turn one targeted discard like duress/thoughtseize? It looks like you want to clear the way to get your engine going
Have you considered the addition of Pernicious deed? I know that the worms and moxen are not good friends with deed, but it's a really powerful tool, and you can always make more worms, can't you? :tongue:


Anyways, congrats for the result and for the good job!

Yeah exactly I am also interested in exactly the same question and would like to elaborate this further o come down to specific card choices. BTW I like my bread with crust ;) what an odd nickname ;)

@ Cthuloo: I think he wrote about Perniciouis Deed and that you picked EE over it although I would like to question if that is really better because PD just wipes the board more thoroughly than EE does.

But let my go step by step.

Colors:
We have been discussing Bg Loam Pox so far in the Pox thread. Now we find that Bgw Loam Control or Pox whatever this archetype might be called on a general level is having succes so we discuss it in a seperate thread. I understand that the w splash is mainly for Vindicate and secondly for StoP. I appreciate the power of both cards especially Vindicate and at the same time have to question it since it weakens your manabase a great deal. You tried like not to weaken it to much considering the low amount of BW duals you play but you weaken your gameplan if your opponent manages to cut you from w. so either way palying more BW duals or less is a dangerious road to go. Did you feel adding w was worse the sacrifice in the end? With just Bg you still would have Pulse and more black removal instead of StoP (which I know is inferior but anyhow substitutions are available).

Mox:
There was always a discussion if lists should add Mox or not. I think we agree that Mox CAN be played in this deck and also is Good in this deck but the questions is if 4 more spells are even better and they outclass the additional speed Mox can provide. I understand that in a 3 color build a Mox is even better than in just a Bg build but anyhow I would be interested if the quetsion also occured to you to add 4 more spells instead of Mox?

SDT:
This is like the discussion about the Mox Diamonds. I confirm that this is good in this deck because it allows sick draw actions and more favorable dredges. On the other hand playing Moxes AND SDT makes 7 cards that do nothing on their own and my question is if this is really worse the slots or if you should just play less or just one full set of either Moxes or SDT or if it has been considered using up a lot of space in the deck? How do you think about it?

Win Conditions:
A lot of different win conditions have been discussioned in the Pox thread for Loam Pox. I would really like to go through them and learn what your own thought have been on them or if. I also made the experience with my Bg list playing some more wincondition and 1 Entomb that it sometimes is hard to come up with a wincondition before your opponent recovers from your hate. As you wrote in the primer I especially remember one game where Replenish ... ah well I wont recall that one ;) .. anyway so Cuthloo questions stands and I would like to detail it. I already read your doubts about Tombstalker and I have to agree that I didn't include it i my builds at first.

But what do you think about the classic Nether Spirit?

What about Tomb of Urami, Mishra or Gargoyle castle to increase threat density

What about other choices like Garruk, Kitchen Finks, Ob Nixilis or Witness?

How do you like Syphon Life?

Toolbox:

What about Toolbox approaches like Volrath Strongehold with witness ? I know I have discarded this idea myself for being too fancy but in any case I would like to learn if you considered it yourself and found out the same or had other reasons.

You alread wrote about Entomb that it sounded nice on paper but in tournaments it didn't prove to be valuable enough. Perhaps you could eleborate on that again.

Removal and Sweepers:

I think the main difference is using EE which is so much stronger in a 3 color build than in two colors. Pernicious Deed is definitely better in Bg I would presume and I am still unsure it is worse at 3 colors but EE definitely is better in 3 than in 2 colors. I am still wondering about the argument that EE is faster. It is only faster if you go for low CC targets because you do not need 3 Mana. For the full color approach it is as expensive and needs 3 Mana as I said. Could you point out where this was more relevant by matchup or by your personal experience?

Thats all I can think of now but I think it is already enough for one post ;) Thanks in advance and for that great primer!

[Cthuloo]

@ Cthuloo: I think he wrote about Perniciouis Deed and that you picked EE over it although I would like to question if that is really better because PD just wipes the board more thoroughly than EE does.


You're right, for some strange reason I skipped those lines of the primer... :tongue:

However, I substantially agree with what you say later:



Removal and Sweepers:

I think the main difference is using EE which is so much stronger in a 3 color build than in two colors. Pernicious Deed is definitely better in Bg I would presume and I am still unsure it is worse at 3 colors but EE definitely is better in 3 than in 2 colors. I am still wondering about the argument that EE is faster. It is only faster if you go for low CC targets because you do not need 3 Mana. For the full color approach it is as expensive and needs 3 Mana as I said. Could you point out where this was more relevant by matchup or by your personal experience?

[alderon666]

Just to drop my 2 cents here. Deed is hella slow and explosives shines in the Zoo matchup and the Dredge matchup, both wich don't look so hot unless you got the nuts.

[FieryBalrog]

Deed is always 1 mana slower than EE. I don't think that justifies calling it "hella slow" while EE is acceptable. Sure, 1 mana is important, but I think the ability to completely wipe out Zoo's creatures is more important.

[Cthuloo]

Deed is always 1 mana slower than EE. I don't think that justifies calling it "hella slow" while EE is acceptable. Sure, 1 mana is important, but I think the ability to completely wipe out Zoo's creatures is more important.

I agree. Explosives can't deal with goyf and nacatl at the same time, and deed is even more valuable in the Goblin and Merfolk matchup, were the cc of the creatures spreads between one and three (or even 4 or 5 for Goblin). Usually it's worth to take a few point damage more to wipe the complete board, and this deck already plays 4 smallpox and 4 innocent blood to sustain the initial assault, not to mention that deed can be easily online on turn 3 with the help of a mox.

[Tao]

I think the list is quite similar to the very old deck dirt by finn. The name "dirt" is also more appropiate because calling a deck after a genetic disease is stupid, will get you into all kinds of discussions that distract from the deck and maybe even get you into trouble in a tourney if you write it on your sheet.

[ktkenshinx]

I enjoyed reading the primer. Thank you for the intelligent words on your deck. A few observations on the deck.

1. I was shocked to see no targeted discard in the list (Cthuloo made this comment already). Unless you draw a Mox, you are likely to have no turn one plays. Wouldn't maindeck Duress and Thoughtseize smooth out your curve a bit, giving you a nice turn one discard spell?

2. Maybe I am wrong, but your Dredge matchup looks unwinnable. You have only 2 instant speed removal spells (Swords), which I admit are good in the Dredge matchup. But after that, the deck goes downhill like a stone. Vindicate and Innocent Blood are going to be next to useless in the matchup, especially at sorcery speed. You have no way of getting rid of Bridge in their yard because you only play 3 creatures. Explosives will buy you some time if cast early enough, but this seems like it would only prolong the inevitable.
Your sideboard also lacks solid answers. If Dredge can play through Crypt, Leyline, and Relic, it can unquestionably get through Coffin Purge.
This is particularly problematic owing to the popularity of Dredge in recent tournaments. At the SCG 10K (one of the only tournaments we have full data for, not just the top 8-16), it was the most played deck throughout the day.
Even worse is you have no clock that Ichorid will care about. You will be playing defense for the whole game. as anyone that has played against Dredge can tell you, that is a doomed proposition.

I do not mean to sound overly harsh or critical, but I am very worried about this deck's dredge matchup. It might be too generalizing to say this, but I cannot imagine this deck winning a game 1. Maybe a game 2 could be salvaged off of some good draws, but it seems that this deck would almost always fold the Dredge matchup. Am I mistaken in my appraisal? Have I missed some interaction or strategy?

-ktkenshinx

[Cthuloo]

2. Maybe I am wrong, but your Dredge matchup looks unwinnable. You have only 2 instant speed removal spells (Swords), which I admit are good in the Dredge matchup. But after that, the deck goes downhill like a stone. Vindicate and Innocent Blood are going to be next to useless in the matchup, especially at sorcery speed. You have no way of getting rid of Bridge in their yard because you only play 3 creatures. Explosives will buy you some time if cast early enough, but this seems like it would only prolong the inevitable.
Your sideboard also lacks solid answers. If Dredge can play through Crypt, Leyline, and Relic, it can unquestionably get through Coffin Purge.
This is particularly problematic owing to the popularity of Dredge in recent tournaments. At the SCG 10K (one of the only tournaments we have full data for, not just the top 8-16), it was the most played deck throughout the day.
Even worse is you have no clock that Ichorid will care about. You will be playing defense for the whole game. as anyone that has played against Dredge can tell you, that is a doomed proposition.

I do not mean to sound overly harsh or critical, but I am very worried about this deck's dredge matchup. It might be too generalizing to say this, but I cannot imagine this deck winning a game 1. Maybe a game 2 could be salvaged off of some good draws, but it seems that this deck would almost always fold the Dredge matchup. Am I mistaken in my appraisal? Have I missed some interaction or strategy?



Waiting for a more precise answer from Brot_Ohne_Kruste, from my experience with Bg Loam Pox you are definitely correct. I used to run a lot of dedicated hate in the sideboard to overcome the problem. From my experience you need at least four slots (if you already run plague in the board).

[dirtyapes]

I really enjoyed the post. Since threat density seems to be a recurring problem that people bring up, what about adding in Bloodghast? It works well with Loam since you want it to go to the graveyard and you should always have lands to play to bring him back if you need to kill him with EE or Deed if it is added.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I like this deck, it is quite interesting. I tried to get Loam/Smallpox working but never found a good balance. This deck could SERIOUSLY benefit by running Entomb and a single Nether Spirit. Entomb finds all your win cons, Loam, or whetever land you need at the time. My suggestion would be to do this:
-1 Life From the Loam
-1 Raven's Crime
-1 Sinkhole
-1 Engineered Explosives
+3 Entomb
+1 Nether Spirit

Easier way to find you win cons, is never a dead card (in fact it is great at baiting a Crypt/Relic), and will contribute to the speed and consistency of the deck. Garden/Lands! decks use Gamble as a universal tutor which greatly contributes to consistency, this is what Entomb could do for this deck!

[Nekrataal]

I like this deck, it is quite interesting. I tried to get Loam/Smallpox working but never found a good balance. This deck could SERIOUSLY benefit by running Entomb and a single Nether Spirit. Entomb finds all your win cons, Loam, or whetever land you need at the time. My suggestion would be to do this:
-1 Life From the Loam
-1 Raven's Crime
-1 Sinkhole
-1 Engineered Explosives
+3 Entomb
+1 Nether Spirit

Easier way to find you win cons, is never a dead card (in fact it is great at baiting a Crypt/Relic), and will contribute to the speed and consistency of the deck. Garden/Lands! decks use Gamble as a universal tutor which greatly contributes to consistency, this is what Entomb could do for this deck!

I agree with you on the point that some slots are dispensable. I do not agree on the Entomb part. I also favor Entomb but the argument in the primer was it is worse than the list with StoP. I am with you regarding Nether Spirit. Maybe one should be added. I at least did it for my current build I did on basis of the Liste from Brot_ohne_Kruste.



I really enjoyed the post. Since threat density seems to be a recurring problem that people bring up, what about adding in Bloodghast? It works well with Loam since you want it to go to the graveyard and you should always have lands to play to bring him back if you need to kill him with EE or Deed if it is added.

That has been discussed in the Pox thread already. Not blocking is a serious issue with Bloodghast since this is not a Aggro deck. From the mechanism part it would fit in just wonderfully but unfortunately it doesn't.


So this will be my updated Loam Pox list for testing with friends today. Brackets indicate the changes to the list from Brot_ohne_Kruste. Intention was to have more threat diversity and density to win the game more quickly and slightly more discard. I therefore lowered the Loam engine parts (Cycling lands, Loam, SDT):

// Lands (24): 4 lands out, 4 other lands in
1 Cabal Pit
1 Tranquil Thicket (-1)
2 Barren Moor (-1)
0 Polluted Delta (-1)
4 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Wasteland (-1)
2 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Mishra's Factory (+2)
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (+2)

// Creatures (2): one more Nether Spirit
1 Gigapede
1 Nether Spirit (+1)

// Spells (34)
1 Raven's Crime (-1)
1 Syphon Life (+1)
0 Swords to Plowshares (-2, altough I would consider them SB)
4 Innocent Blood
2 Sensei's Divining Top (-1)
4 Mox Diamond
1 Worm Harvest
0 Engineered Explosives (-3, still like Deed, could be SB options though)
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Vindicate
3 Life from the Loam (-1)
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
3 Hymn to Tourach (great also for the land destruction part)

// Sideboard (
SB: 0 Coffin Purge (-3)
SB: 0 Pithing Needle (-3, playing Grip instead)
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 0 Zuran Orb (-2, I think this is to GY dependend)
SB: 0 Duress (Though nice it doesn't help much after boarding)
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Extirpate (This is great for the LD part since it can extirpate duals)
SB: 3 Ghostly Prison
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Kitchen Finks

As has been said before GY hate is not that bad against this deck, since you can board some GY depend Winconditions out for G2 and it still wirks even if your GY is not a source of resources although such a situation has to be handled for the long run. IN my SB choices I am more worried about Aggro, Thresh and Dredge. Krosan Grip is an answer to GY hate and CBTop, Extirpates take care of duplicates to this hate cards. Prison and Finks are directed for Aggro. Cypts, Prison + Extirpate help in the Dredge matchup. Storm Combo, Belcher is just auto loss.

[Cthuloo]

@ Nekrataal: I really like your changes (on paper at least). I'm with you particularly on the extra win conditions and the Hymns. In fact the deck looks a lot like my last Bg pox version. :tongue:

I will consider adding Nihiliths to the board in place of the finks as an alternative fast win con non grave dependant. However good testing! Tells us how it went.

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

Well, that's a very nice Primer for an awesome deck!

But I think you muddled your list a little bit, because you forgot the 3 Barren Moor. You really should add them. ;D

After a little playtesting I've to admit that the deck is even stronger than I thought. Up until now I ran the following list:

// Lands
1 Cabal Pit
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
3 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Barren Moor
4 Verdant Catacombs

// Creatures
1 Gigapede

// Spells
1 Worm Harvest
2 Raven's Crime
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Vindicate
4 Life from the Loam
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Mox Diamond
4 Innocent Blood

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 2 Coffin Purge
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Zuran Orb
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Sadistic Sacrament

After the first playtesting I would just ran your manabase, because you really, really need the playset Bayou. I was to slow with 4 Moors way to often. You want to see them when you have Loam online or in the first turn if you're on the play, but elsewhere they are bad.

I also will change the sideboard. With the current one you couldn't stand a chance against combo and I'm unwilling to completely give up on that matchup. But the question is what should be in there and in which slot? After testing, I feel you don't really need the Sacrament/Extirpates.
Sacrament as a one-of is to slow against Combo, even with Duress. I think I will test something like CotV (any other suggestions?) in the slot of Sacrament/Extirpate because these are the choices I was not happy with.

These are my first impressions with this deck.

Yeah, I forgot them, thanks :).

You're right, last time I tested the 4th Barren Moor was pretty weak, I would've rather played a 4th Bayou. I'll test it.

Yeah, the Sideboard is, what needs work I think. It isn't optimal at all. Your SB above was built in the last minutes before the tournament started, so it's really random ;). I think Chalice is really a good card, that'll help in many matchups. I'll test that too.




* You only have two win conditions, and, although they're pretty fast when they come online, you will often leave plenty of time to your opponent to recover from your initial disruption before finding one. This could be one of the reasons why you have such a bad combo mathcup: you can't back up your destruction with a fast enough clock
* Again on the win-con: they're bot graveyard dependent, as the loam engine is. You said it's not a big problem, can you elaborate a bit? Could it be possible to add some factories, maybe in place of the cabal pit and one or two Moor/Thicket?
* Don't you miss some turn one targeted discard like duress/thoughtseize? It looks like you want to clear the way to get your engine going
* Have you considered the addition of Pernicious deed? I know that the worms and moxen are not good friends with deed, but it's a really powerful tool, and you can always make more worms, can't you?

- With 16 landdestruction-spells, 4 of them recoverable, it's not often that the opponent could recover that fast. You are right, the clock need some time to come online, but it's worth it. In many cases the opponent scoops, that's our wincondition #3 :D. I don't know, even with a faster clock, the combo-matchup should still be really bad.

- Many people are removing the Life from the Loam, which is okay and necessary, but not good at all because there is a point in the game where they are without lands or handcards or both and at this point you can overwhelm them with your two killconditions. The good thing is, that you're dredging the winconditions in the lategame in most cases and then you are winning. That's it. People are removing the wrong cards, but it's the best thing they can do.

- I've tested the Factories and even Treetop Village. The Factories aren't that good because the produce colorless mana and the Village comes into play tapped. Furthermore the both could be sworded, which is really bad. I'd rather play Gargoyle Castle. In this case I would never cut the Cabal Pit, it's just too good. I would rather take one cycling-land out.

- I've never missed discard-spells like Duress or Thoughtseize. Sure, you want to clear your way, but not to get your engine going, but rather to completely lock out your opponent without lands. The deck is reactive, it just handles things that are coming down and it doesn't need to handle things in the opponent's hand. Of course it would improve the combo-matchup, but it would also weaken all other matchups I think.

- I've played 2-3 Deeds in the Maindeck for quite a long time. It's powerfull, no doubt, but the Explosives are faster and that's really important to win many matchups. In the Goblin-matchup e.g. it's necessary to handle a first turn Aether Vial as fast as possible. This card just destroys you because the deck could still produce creatures without any land in play.
In Trisomy EE is in most cases a one-permanent-removal because all other permanents are destroyed pretty fast. It's high flexibility makes it really usefull for this deck.



SDT:
This is like the discussion about the Mox Diamonds. I confirm that this is good in this deck because it allows sick draw actions and more favorable dredges. On the other hand playing Moxes AND SDT makes 7 cards that do nothing on their own and my question is if this is really worse the slots or if you should just play less or just one full set of either Moxes or SDT or if it has been considered using up a lot of space in the deck? How do you think about it?

I'd never ever cut one Top except for sideboarding. They're too strong to not play them. As a Top resolves you win most of the games (against non-combo-, non-aggro-decks) because provides you card quality and improves your dredges.
As you stated, Mox Diamond is the weakest card in the deck, but unfortunately I think that it is necessary to run it. It's fixing the manabase and speeds up the deck, which is needed.



But what do you think about the classic Nether Spirit?

What about Tomb of Urami, Mishra or Gargoyle castle to increase threat density

What about other choices like Garruk, Kitchen Finks, Ob Nixilis or Witness?

How do you like Syphon Life?


The problem of Nether Spirit is that it is in most cases just a bad wall. It can be sworded which is another negative aspect. In this deck I hate to play threats that can be handled really quick. I've played it in the SB with 3 Entombs Main. I boarded it in, but it was just bad. I'd rather sworded the opponents creature.

Tomb of Urami can be handled too fast and it destroys your manabase. I'd rather play Gargoyle Castle, in my eyes it's better. As for Mishra, see above ;).

I've tested Garruk / Elspeth, Kitchen Finks and Witness. All of them got one big problem: in your graveyard they are more then useless. The same goes with Ob Nixilis. It also costs 5 mana, which is high and makes it bad, because it can be handled. Yeah, I know, I have the fear that all threat can be handled, but when you are playing a deck with such a low threat density, you have to play threats that are bulletproofed :).

I have tested Syphon Life in Graboids. At the first I thought it was really good, but it turned out that it was really bad, because it was too slow; even for this deck.



What about Toolbox approaches like Volrath Strongehold with witness ? I know I have discarded this idea myself for being too fancy but in any case I would like to learn if you considered it yourself and found out the same or had other reasons.

You alread wrote about Entomb that it sounded nice on paper but in tournaments it didn't prove to be valuable enough. Perhaps you could eleborate on that again.

Witness + Stronghold: I've tested it in Graboids, it wasn't good at all. The Witness was just a chumpblocker in most cases. In it's spot I'd rather play the Finks.

As for Entomb it has got following problem: What does it do, if creatures are smashing your face in turn 2 and 3? Right, nothing. You can Entomb for Life, but it doesn't handle creatures. Thats a big problem, you have to handle all creatures fast and doesn't kill them. Even Entomb on Nether Spirit is not, what you want. With the Spirit you can just handle one creature in most cases. After all the removal density is increased by playing the Swords.



I think the main difference is using EE which is so much stronger in a 3 color build than in two colors. Pernicious Deed is definitely better in Bg I would presume and I am still unsure it is worse at 3 colors but EE definitely is better in 3 than in 2 colors. I am still wondering about the argument that EE is faster. It is only faster if you go for low CC targets because you do not need 3 Mana. For the full color approach it is as expensive and needs 3 Mana as I said. Could you point out where this was more relevant by matchup or by your personal experience?


In many cases EE blows up permanents with cc 1 or 2. If you want to activate it in one turn, you have to pay three mana; that are the manacost of Deed. EE is helpful by destroying Aether Vial and fast creatures as fast as possible and in the lategame to destroy more permanents. But the main reason why it is played over Deed is, that you have to activate it on turn two or three to survive against aggro. It's all about the speed :). Furthermore it handles Planeswalker ;).



2. Maybe I am wrong, but your Dredge matchup looks unwinnable. You have only 2 instant speed removal spells (Swords), which I admit are good in the Dredge matchup. But after that, the deck goes downhill like a stone. Vindicate and Innocent Blood are going to be next to useless in the matchup, especially at sorcery speed. You have no way of getting rid of Bridge in their yard because you only play 3 creatures. Explosives will buy you some time if cast early enough, but this seems like it would only prolong the inevitable.
Your sideboard also lacks solid answers. If Dredge can play through Crypt, Leyline, and Relic, it can unquestionably get through Coffin Purge.
This is particularly problematic owing to the popularity of Dredge in recent tournaments. At the SCG 10K (one of the only tournaments we have full data for, not just the top 8-16), it was the most played deck throughout the day.
Even worse is you have no clock that Ichorid will care about. You will be playing defense for the whole game. as anyone that has played against Dredge can tell you, that is a doomed proposition.

I do not mean to sound overly harsh or critical, but I am very worried about this deck's dredge matchup. It might be too generalizing to say this, but I cannot imagine this deck winning a game 1. Maybe a game 2 could be salvaged off of some good draws, but it seems that this deck would almost always fold the Dredge matchup. Am I mistaken in my appraisal? Have I missed some interaction or strategy?


You're right, the Dredge-matchup is really bad. I count that deck under combo. If you really want to win against it, you have to run a Sideboard with 8+ hatecards I think. That's why I think I have to improve the SB a little bit.



I really enjoyed the post. Since threat density seems to be a recurring problem that people bring up, what about adding in Bloodghast? It works well with Loam since you want it to go to the graveyard and you should always have lands to play to bring him back if you need to kill him with EE or Deed if it is added.

Bloodghast is a good creature, no doubt, but the problem is that it can't block. The deck plays defensively and that why Bloodghast is bad. Four removal spells are definitely better because Bloodghasts aren't handling creatures at all.



I like this deck, it is quite interesting. I tried to get Loam/Smallpox working but never found a good balance. This deck could SERIOUSLY benefit by running Entomb and a single Nether Spirit. Entomb finds all your win cons, Loam, or whetever land you need at the time. My suggestion would be to do this:
-1 Life From the Loam
-1 Raven's Crime
-1 Sinkhole
-1 Engineered Explosives
+3 Entomb
+1 Nether Spirit

Easier way to find you win cons, is never a dead card (in fact it is great at baiting a Crypt/Relic), and will contribute to the speed and consistency of the deck. Garden/Lands! decks use Gamble as a universal tutor which greatly contributes to consistency, this is what Entomb could do for this deck!

On the paper it MAY look good, but as stated above, it just hurts the deck. Sure, it can find your winconditions and other things, that doesn't really change the boardposition instantly. But finding a wincondition isn't good when creatures crushed your skull...



3 Hymn to Tourach (great also for the land destruction part)

I don't agree with you here. You're cutting removal for discard which, in my eyes, isn't the right way to go. You have to decide yourself between really hating handcards or permanents and I think permanents are better to hate. Without any lands the opponent can't do anything, but without handcards the opponent could draw a threat.



I think the list is quite similar to the very old deck dirt by finn. The name "dirt" is also more appropiate because calling a deck after a genetic disease is stupid, will get you into all kinds of discussions that distract from the deck and maybe even get you into trouble in a tourney if you write it on your sheet.

I haven't got any trouble with the deckname at all. Even „harder“ decknames didn't get me into trouble ;).



PS.: Oh my god, what a long answer...
PS2.: I haven't regret the step from Bg to Bgw, it made the deck more steady. By changing Maelstrom Pulse for Vindicate, the landdestruction-strategy is even better :).

[Dark Zero]

Okay, after some more testing (especially against Dredge) I think in the SB there is simply not enough space to cover all the matchups you will need hate for (common problem, I know ;D).


I used to run a lot of dedicated hate in the sideboard to overcome the problem. From my experience you need at least four slots (if you already run plague in the board).

Indeed. Because of that I am about to give up completely on the Storm Combo and Belcher MU (what I think is the way to go).
Here in Hannover you see Dredge pretty often (~5 out of ~40 participants), on the other hand Storm Combo is played by at most 2 people and Belcher does not exist. So it should be okay adding more Dredge hate to stand a chance in game 2/3.

I will test the following SB in Hannover this Saturday (if I can get my hands on the needed cards):

4x Leyline of the Void
3x Engineered Plaque
3x Pithing Needle
2x Zuran Orb
2x Extirpate
1x Free

I think in the free slot I will test a Nihilith or is there a better choice?

[Kesta]

Better than a Nihilith ? There's plenty stuff:
3rd extirpate, 4th needle, ravenous trap.

I like your deck and your explaination, i used to play a lot Truffle Shuffle, the same way, lot of control and few WinCon. It's horrible to play, but when you master it you get so much satisfaction!

I'm glad to see some deck like that working nowadays.

Keep on going.

Grüss from switzerland

K

[Nekrataal]

I don't know where to start. So much to say ;) I did a lot of playtesting the last two days in our group and online. Well, the deck was a blast to play. Unfortunately I didn't play to much Aggro, much more Control. Anyway. There were some last minute and inbetween changes.

-1 Nether Spirit (its just not relevant and without Entomb not searchable

// Lands (24)
1 Cabal Pit
1 Tranquil Thicket
2 Barren Moor
4 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Wasteland
2 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

// Creatures (1)
1 Gigapede

// Spells (35)
1 Raven's Crime
1 Syphon Life
4 Innocent Blood
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Mox Diamond
1 Worm Harvest
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Vindicate
3 Life from the Loam
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach

// Sideboard (

SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 3 Ghostly Prison
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Kitchen Finks

before I recall some specific matchups I would like to give some pros and cons to my list:

2 Mishra's Factory were OK for me since they can block all day with Loam or go for the win if the board is empty. If you care about opponents W mana sources they are here to stay. However I had to mulligan every fifth game or so due to not having the coloured mana needed.

1 Syphon Life. Wasn't that bad for me. Granted it is slow but it nets you life and won me games in the control matchup. I didn't play decks with Burn, which I intended it for, so it might either be more or less relevant. I can't tell right now.

2 SDT. This card is crazy with Loam. I didn't realize before how good it is. I really should play 3. Maybe I cut down to 3 Mox Diamond or 3 Hymn.

4 Mox Diamond: I wasn't satisfied with these neither for speed in the early game nor any other aspect EXCEPT color fixing. Unfortunately it is needed for that. But if it is not speed you need it for than maybe 3 will do.

1 Worm Harvest. Undecided. Matters only in the very late game and is as slow as Syphon life imho. However against a mill deck I played it was MVP.

3 Deed. Since I didn't play too much Aggro I cannot tell if it is really soooo much worse against Aggro. However playing Elves it was always a coin flip so EE might have mattered. Dunno.

4 Vindicate. How could I have played without them for soo long.

3 Loam. Worked out OK for me. I never missed the fourth.

4 Hymn. Me likes. Early game they support your plan in land / hand destruction. Later on if your game plan succeeds they are often useless. Maybe since I played more control I found them more useful then SToP. I boarded out Innocent blood a lot. Maybe I start thinking differently when facing Merfolk and Goblins.

Board: MVP: 3 Ghostly Prison. Combined with LD this is already a common strategy among BW Pox. 2 Extirpate: Choosing more duals is just sooo much fun. Honorable mention: 2 Kitchen Finks for saving my ass against Telemin Performance

I tested intensively in my playgroup. I will make it short. The decks I played 5 times in a row: Elves, Mono U Control, SpeedMill and Ur Control Homebrew.

Mono U Control took a looooong time to play these matches. But the matchup is favorable. Shroud creatures can be removed and land destruction / discard hurts them early game. Dredge and retrace cards are most relevant in this matchup for the long run. MVP from opponent is BtB which really slows us down. The Ur version was easy prey due to its more fragile manabase. It wasn't every much fun for my opponent.

SpeedMill. Apart from the one game lost to Telemin Performance with a Gigapede in play I kept rolling over him with a lot of worms.

Elves (Anger/Survival not Combo). Tricky matchup. I would call it a coin flip. At least the games I started I won. The mana base has to be disrupted quickly and early otherwise there are too many mana producing Elves in play so that your LD just doesnt matter anymore. Elves have too much options to generate additional mana and they bring a massive amount of elves into play quickly too. Maybe StoPs and EEs are better in this matchup ;) Unfortunately the trick with Ghostly Prison doesnt work here either. I will keep on testing ... well tonight I have a rendezvous with a dredge player. ;)






- Many people are removing the Life from the Loam, which is okay and necessary, but not good at all because there is a point in the game where they are without lands or handcards or both and at this point you can overwhelm them with your two killconditions. The good thing is, that you're dredging the winconditions in the lategame in most cases and then you are winning. That's it. People are removing the wrong cards, but it's the best thing they can do.



I don't quite get that. Are we right or are we wrong ;)



- I've tested the Factories and even Treetop Village. The Factories aren't that good because the produce colorless mana and the Village comes into play tapped. Furthermore the both could be sworded, which is really bad. I'd rather play Gargoyle Castle. In this case I would never cut the Cabal Pit, it's just too good. I would rather take one cycling-land out.

Gargoyle Castle seems great if you CAN recurr it. Mishra is better on its own and less "fancy". If I could make room I would play Gargoyle Castle game 1 and then switch to factories ;) So I see 2 options here: play 2 Factories or play 1 Gargoyle Castle + additional Swamp



- I've never missed discard-spells like Duress or Thoughtseize. Sure, you want to clear your way, but not to get your engine going, but rather to completely lock out your opponent without lands. The deck is reactive, it just handles things that are coming down and it doesn't need to handle things in the opponent's hand. Of course it would improve the combo-matchup, but it would also weaken all other matchups I think.

Me too. I played Duress SB in my Bg version of the deck but almost never used it. I think it also improves the control matchup, but that matter of fact is already rather favorable. Apart from Hymn which can hit lands I agree with you.



- I've played 2-3 Deeds in the Maindeck for quite a long time. It's powerfull, no doubt, but the Explosives are faster and that's really important to win many matchups. In the Goblin-matchup e.g. it's necessary to handle a first turn Aether Vial as fast as possible. This card just destroys you because the deck could still produce creatures without any land in play.
In Trisomy EE is in most cases a one-permanent-removal because all other permanents are destroyed pretty fast. It's high flexibility makes it really usefull for this deck.

Maybe I need to paly more to get to that particular point of comprehension.




I'd never ever cut one Top except for sideboarding. They're too strong to not play them. As a Top resolves you win most of the games (against non-combo-, non-aggro-decks) because provides you card quality and improves your dredges.
As you stated, Mox Diamond is the weakest card in the deck, but unfortunately I think that it is necessary to run it. It's fixing the manabase and speeds up the deck, which is needed.

After my playtesting I do agree. However maybe it is 3 of each .... although playing 4 Mox makes me go "mhh!" as I played Stax for a long time.



The problem of Nether Spirit is that it is in most cases just a bad wall. It can be sworded which is another negative aspect. In this deck I hate to play threats that can be handled really quick. I've played it in the SB with 3 Entombs Main. I boarded it in, but it was just bad. I'd rather sworded the opponents creature.

Tomb of Urami can be handled too fast and it destroys your manabase. I'd rather play Gargoyle Castle, in my eyes it's better. As for Mishra, see above ;).

Yepp agree



I've tested Garruk / Elspeth, Kitchen Finks and Witness. All of them got one big problem: in your graveyard they are more then useless. The same goes with Ob Nixilis. It also costs 5 mana, which is high and makes it bad, because it can be handled. Yeah, I know, I have the fear that all threat can be handled, but when you are playing a deck with such a low threat density, you have to play threats that are bulletproofed :).

At least Witness AND Finks only make sense with Volrath Stronghold for recursion imho. However playing 3 SDT the likelyhood of milling a Plainswalker decreases ...



I have tested Syphon Life in Graboids. At the first I thought it was really good, but it turned out that it was really bad, because it was too slow; even for this deck.

I still have to find that out ...





Witness + Stronghold: I've tested it in Graboids, it wasn't good at all. The Witness was just a chumpblocker in most cases. In it's spot I'd rather play the Finks.

As for Entomb it has got following problem: What does it do, if creatures are smashing your face in turn 2 and 3? Right, nothing. You can Entomb for Life, but it doesn't handle creatures. Thats a big problem, you have to handle all creatures fast and doesn't kill them. Even Entomb on Nether Spirit is not, what you want. With the Spirit you can just handle one creature in most cases. After all the removal density is increased by playing the Swords.

I totally get your point here and Witness Stronghold Entomb / Spirit maybe too fancy. At least I decided so as well not to play them anymore.




In many cases EE blows up permanents with cc 1 or 2. If you want to activate it in one turn, you have to pay three mana; that are the manacost of Deed. EE is helpful by destroying Aether Vial and fast creatures as fast as possible and in the lategame to destroy more permanents. But the main reason why it is played over Deed is, that you have to activate it on turn two or three to survive against aggro. It's all about the speed :). Furthermore it handles Planeswalker ;).

I totally missed the last point. Sure you probably need help from a Mox to hit Elspeth.




You're right, the Dredge-matchup is really bad. I count that deck under combo. If you really want to win against it, you have to run a Sideboard with 8+ hatecards I think. That's why I think I have to improve the SB a little bit.

I think that you still can tune your SB for dredge without loosing to much slots easily. If you get there Ghostly Prison is MVP. I find it much harder for Storm combo because CotV is not enough by far considering how long it takes us to win.



Bloodghast is a good creature, no doubt, but the problem is that it can't block. The deck plays defensively and that why Bloodghast is bad. Four removal spells are definitely better because Bloodghasts aren't handling creatures at all.

I fear we have to go over this point through the life of this thread a couple of times. Maybe we start calling it the Bloodghast riddle.






I don't agree with you here. You're cutting removal for discard which, in my eyes, isn't the right way to go. You have to decide yourself between really hating handcards or permanents and I think permanents are better to hate. Without any lands the opponent can't do anything, but without handcards the opponent could draw a threat.


Yepp. True. But I also see it as LD. However lategame you are right. Either they have an empty hand anyway or there hand is crowded because the LD plan succeeded. But as I explained before this maybe is a matchup thing. Since I played a lot of control ... but I am considering ...since this is rather positive matchup already.

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

I don't quite get that. Are we right or are we wrong ;)


I won't say you are wrong, but in almost every game I played against hate, they have to remove the Life from the Loam because it made too much card advantage or gets you Wasteland and after that they haven't got enough mana to remove the winconditions. They have to decide if they want to slow down me a little bit or if they don't want to die. If they choose the last one, they probably will die because they haven't got any lands or handcards.




At least Witness AND Finks only make sense with Volrath Stronghold for recursion imho. However playing 3 SDT the likelyhood of milling a Plainswalker decreases ...

Yeah, it will decrease the chance of milling them, but I like to play more hate over more wincons :D.




I totally missed the last point. Sure you probably need help from a Mox to hit Elspeth.

It was just a little joke ;). Planeswalker aren't really a problem, but if the case occurs that you haven't got a Vindicate, EE could handle it (often with help of the Mox, sure).

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

Finally the deck made the first place out of 45 people ( http://trader-online.de/turniere/Decks/2009-12-T15.html / http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30796 ).

He had to play against B/G Reanimator, Mono R Burn, Bant Survival, Canadian Thresh and two other decks I don't know. As you can see he dropped the Zuran Orb and played Duress with Sadistic Sacrament to increase the Combo-matchup. I think it's the right way to go and that the list is close to an optimum. What do you think?


PS.: What are your experiences with the other lists you wanted to test?

[dorsch]

I'm glad to see this deck making first place, but it seems as if he had luck with his matchups.

Could you share your thoughts on the absence of one mana discard aka Thoughtseize/Duress?

[leander?]

He already did on page 1:

- I've never missed discard-spells like Duress or Thoughtseize. Sure, you want to clear your way, but not to get your engine going, but rather to completely lock out your opponent without lands. The deck is reactive, it just handles things that are coming down and it doesn't need to handle things in the opponent's hand. Of course it would improve the combo-matchup, but it would also weaken all other matchups I think.

[Nekrataal]

I'm glad to see this deck making first place, but it seems as if he had luck with his matchups.

Could you share your thoughts on the absence of one mana discard aka Thoughtseize/Duress?

Well I wouldn't call all these matchups good ones and 2 we even do not know. StoP helps against Reanimator (which is Combo) especially if they call black with Iona. Great to see the deck gets the place it deserves. I am however not convinced about Sadistic Sacrament. Did it help in any of the matchups? Doing something about Combo Turn 3 usually is too late on paper. To give an analogy: Rule of Law isn't played very often for that reason.

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

I am however not convinced about Sadistic Sacrament. Did it help in any of the matchups? Doing something about Combo Turn 3 usually is too late on paper. To give an analogy: Rule of Law isn't played very often for that reason.

I wasn't there by myself, but a friend told me that the guy didn't board it in. So he can't tell wether it's good or not. I hope it is. If not, I think Hymn to Tourach or Thoughtseize would be the right call. The problem is that I had not much time in the last weeks, but I'll test it :).

The example with the Rule of Law is right, I think. But as I said, I'll test it :).


€:// I've edited the Top 8-results of the deck in the opening post. The results that weren't on deckcheck were submitted today.

[Nekrataal]

I noticed that the deck was mentioned in the latest Legacy's Allure article on StarCity Games (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/18493_Legacys_Allure_The_Winter_Deck_Tech_Roundup.html). The conclusion is quite the same that I had BEFORE I tested the list with white. Sure the manabase of Bg is less fickle but on the other hand Vindicate and some SB choices are really really strong and can make a huge difference. And Brot_Ohne_Kruste also swears on his StoPs ;)

[FoolofaTook]

The mana denial in this is really nasty if you're not playing counters. It seems to get to the no-land-go position for the opponent very quickly.

[FoolofaTook]

I'm wondering about Root Maze in the sideboard for combo? You can drop it turn 1 and it'll basically hold off the opponent for several turns by itself, especially if they are fetch-dependent. By the time they get to the point they might be able to go off you've already removed the land they need and their artifacts are still coming into play tapped meaning that other than LED they cannot be used the turn they are played. You're divorcing their storm count from the mana needed to use it effectively.

From your standpoint the card has enough asymmetrical features that it allows you to operate in the early to mid game with only slight impairment if you are going first. You get to fetch before you drop it turn 1. You can drop Mox Diamond before you play it turn 1 and have 2 mana ready to go on turn 2. Engineered Explosives does not have to tap to be used. It is a bit slower to develop but slower is not necessarily bad for this deck if the opponent is equally inconvenienced.

You'd pull creature removal for the Root Mazes.

[Raystar]

Very good deck. I've play tested it during the last days and I really liked what I saw.

One thing that I tested and gave very good results against aggro is Tabernacle at the Pendrell Vale. I put one in the MD to replace the Cabal Pit and it did wonders against aggro strategies.

I also put together a slightly different SB:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Zuran Orb
2 Pithing Needle
1 Tabernacle at the Pendrell Vale

The reasoning behind this choices is:

Leyline of the Void: it seems the best "all in one" compromise against Dredge, combined with the second Tabernacle from the SB can slow them down enough to give you a chance

Sphere of Resistance: another "reasonable" compromise against combo (even if I really liked the Root Maze suggestion above...can't really decide), they need to find an answer quick or relay uniquely on their artifact mana when our LD comes online.

Zuran Orb: I played a lot of 43Lands in the past and ZOrb has always been the most reliable answer to Burn...it's good here too :)

Tabernacle at the Pendrell Vale: comes in to increase the density against swarm type of decks.

I'm sure there are cons I don't see against this SB but it has worked well during my tests, I'd love if there is any obvious flaw I'm not seeing being pointed at to me.

Peace.

[FoolofaTook]

@Raystar - I think you are right about Leylines of the Void being the best case against Dredge. It cuts off the game plan with a permanent and is drop and forget which allows you to proactively keep removing their permanents.

I'm doing this in the sideboard for now:

4x Root Maze
1x Raven's Crime
4x Leylines of the Void
1x Energy Flux
4x Trinisphere
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrall Vale

Root Maze: as described above, specifically to slow down combo although it might find a spot against Affinity too, can't decide until it gets tested.

Raven's Crime: an extra for when having one in the opening hand or very quickly is a good idea, like against Control and Burn.

Leylines of the Void: against Dredge.

Energy Flux: 1-of for Affinity and non-combo people using a lot of artifact mana like Faerie Stompy. Just a sweeper to stabilize the game state.

Trinisphere: for use against Burn and decks playing a lot of red where it's easy to lose to the drop and Chain Lightning or Rift Bolt even after you have locked things down pretty well.

The Tabernacle at Pendrall Vale: comes in against creature aggro, Not maindeck because it does not tap for mana and until I know it's going to be effective I want to stay with Cabal Pit, which can give me that crucial 2nd :b: or 3rd mana overall.

The idea of the board is to setup locking pieces with a good chance to have the lock in the opening hand. The weakness of the board is that it has 2 sets of hosers that you really want in the opening hand after you have boarded. This makes mulliganing a bit more of a forced process and might lead to weaker overall play.

[Raystar]

@Foolofatook: all very good points. What convinces me a lot about Root Maze against combo is the act that they usually pack additional bounce (in addition to Wipe Away) against artifact (Hurkyl's Recall, for example).

Root Maze could get them unprepared game 2 and force them to go find an answer while you could have the time to set up the lock.

[dorsch]

how do you fight merfolk and goblins, matchups i have troubles with, with this board?
Could you board root maze anywhere else besides Storm Combo?

[nodahero]

I have not gotten around to really testing Root Maze yet but you could bring it in against Burn as an additional method of LDing burn... The land comes in tapped and then on your turn you blow it up.

[FoolofaTook]

@nodahero - very good point.


how do you fight merfolk and goblins, matchups i have troubles with, with this board?
Could you board root maze anywhere else besides Storm Combo?

Root Maze would come in against Belcher, Landstill, XX Lands and Burn for Innocent Blood. There are probably other very good replacement sets for it against other parts of the meta but replacing Innocent Blood against largely creatureless decks seems like the best one.

Merfolk and Goblins I can't speak to without a lot more testing. Somebody who has played the deck a lot competitively would be better suited to answer that question. I find Engineered Plague too slow these days against those decks.

[Illissius]

Infest would be a good choice.

[FoolofaTook]

So maybe 4x Infest in place of the Trinispheres and use Root Maze to handle Burn. I think there is not really a great solution for the tribal swarm these days for this type of control deck except to deny them mana to build the swarm in the first place and maybe establish a tabernacle lock against them.

I know from my days of fighting white weenie and r/g sligh swarms that this type of control deck is essentially in a race to turn 5 against them and if it gets there in good shape it probably has a lock-win going but it can be very tough to get there in good shape.

[FoolofaTook]

What do people think about making the 2x Swords to Plowshares and 2x Raven's Crime into 4x Root Maze main deck? I'm looking at putting the StP and Raven's Crime in the sideboard at this point.

The Root Maze casts turn 1 and shuts down half the format or more for a handful of turns. I've been testing a lot against 3 decks at this point, ANT, Supreme Blue and RGW Zoo. Root Maze is very strong against all 3 on the play and gives you chances to stabilize on the draw.

The main deck still has 4x Innocent Blood, 3x Engineered Explosives, 4x Smallpox and 4x Vindicate for creatures. The main problem for the deck is still Aether Vial or fast dredged tokens, neither of which Swords to Plowshares or Raven's Crime really helps with.

Raven's Crime seems to not get used very much because the control decks it would be useful against are going to beat you if they get to 4 mana anyway and lose if they do not. Being able to force the opponent to discard a couple of times early and then come back for their hand on turn 6 or 7 doesn't really effect that situation as much as preventing them from ever being able to cast anything but Force of Will in the first place.

[DownSyndromeKarl]

I'm just tickled by the fact the deck is called Trisomy 21. haha.

I'm also glad to see a non-combo deck win without Goyf.

[nodahero]

While the option to run Root Maze in the main provides better game 1 options does the loss of Ravens Crime and StP make it worth it?

At Legacy Champs this summer I ran RGB Aggro Loam up against 2 combo decks and beat both handily on the back of Ravens Crime gaurded by EE. All I did both matches was make sure to hit a Crime and then go at their hand as fast and hard as possible while wasting when possible as well. The EE were used to ensure they didnt put any artifact mana into play.

While it is possible that Root Maze could sorta do the same role we should note that we are weaking our strength against critters and control to strengthen our Combo matchup and our burn match up, which around me is not very common.

Also do note though that the combo player can just as easily drop his artifacts ASAP and just kill with AdNos into rituals thus making Root Maze an annoyance and not really a powerful effect compared to endless discard.

[Tacosnape]

Initial thoughts of this deck after several days of playtime.

1. I don't like Raven's Crime here. I see the point of it, but I don't like it. I've cut down to one because sometimes I need it to force a kill condition through and can Entomb for it, and may cut down to 0.

2. Hymn to Tourach is good. That is all.

3. I find it really difficult to get my kill conditions to go the distance post-board. Not only am I shut down by graveyard hate, but I've also had to contend with Engineered Plague, which can be a huge pain in the ass against me. Does anyone have any brilliant ideas for additional kill conditions? I've been experimenting with Dread and Vigor (Vigor + Gigapede = ridiculous), but they're When and not If abilities, so they're just as vulnerable to graveyard hate. I've also been wanting to tinker around with manlands. Suggestions?

[dorsch]

compared to page 1 my decklist includes:
-2 swords
-1 raven's crime
-1 senseis top
-1 EE
-1 Loam

+2 Entomb
+1 Nether Spirit
+3 Thoughtseize

Thoughtseize is a very powerful 1-drop. I dont want to limit myself to top and mox as only turn one options.
Entomb allowed me to cut raven's crime and loam, so no real card slots are used.
Entomb on Nether Spirit is very powerful versus any non-white deck with creatures.




1. I don't like Raven's Crime here. I see the point of it, but I don't like it. I've cut down to one because sometimes I need it to force a kill condition through and can Entomb for it, and may cut down to 0.
I agree. (Look at the list above)
Do u play Thoughtseize? How many Entombs?


2. Hymn to Tourach is good. That is all.
Yes, but I can't find any free slots.


3. I find it really difficult to get my kill conditions to go the distance post-board. Not only am I shut down by graveyard hate, but I've also had to contend with Engineered Plague, which can be a huge pain in the ass against me. Does anyone have any brilliant ideas for additional kill conditions? I've been experimenting with Dread and Vigor (Vigor + Gigapede = ridiculous), but they're When and not If abilities, so they're just as vulnerable to graveyard hate. I've also been wanting to tinker around with manlands. Suggestions?
One huge advantage of Gigapede and Worm Harvest is, the are immune to swords, stingscourger, snuff out and all the other targeted removal.
If you want to loose that advantage, i would suggest to run tombstalker+volraths stronghold as some Pox.decs do, but i think it would weaken the deck.
The only manland would be Mishras Factory. I found out this colorless land hurts too much.
What do you think about Nether Spirit+Entomb?

[Kesta]

Maybe just a brainfart, but I used to play Truffle Schuffle and a wincon was Haunting Echoes. I think it can fit in this deck or I'm missing smthing?

[dorsch]

You might miss the fact that both Gigapede and Worms harvest can be used when dredged into the graveyard, after discarding for smallpox and after being countered.

[SilverGreen]

Sincerely, I'm trying this deck for some time now, liked it a lot (it fits amazingly well in my playstile and card preferences), but I'm not so satisfied with Raven's Crime and the killcons, that seem to be the centerpieces of the OP's list.

The LD package is very, very huge. It's very unusual that an opponent achieves and keeps two lands, and the occasions where you leave him with no lands in play aren't uncommon either. When your gameplan runs smoothly, your opponent becomes restricted to free or 1CMC spells already, so that to make consecutive attacks to his hand loses a lot of meaning. Raven's Crime role becomes just a win more matter at this point. Pinpoint discard would be a lot better in these situations, more focused and less resource-intensive. Why do you need make a lot of efforts involving dredge and retrace to rip your opponent's hand, when all you need is to hit an specific card?

I also don't consider the "make opponent's removal dead" matter so important here. You just have to complain about StP/PtE, every other removal in the format is just "meh" against your recursive threats. You may even be grateful for your opponent wasting a Snuff Out or the like in one of your reanimating guys. Graveyard hate is where relies the problem, and it's everywhere. You can dodge Swords to Plowshares, but by no means you're able to respond to a topdecked Tormod's Crypt/Relic of Progenitus/Extirpate, and once your opponent gets rid of one of your two wincons, you're in bad shape.

I have been trying Grave-Shell Scarab in Worm's Harvest's slot, because it dodges both the aforementioned answers all by itself. Played wisely, it'll never be shot by StP or Crypt. And it has the additional benefits of not die to every 1/1 in the format, like the other insect in the deck, and isn't sweeped by a card of the Engineered kind. There's many times where all you need is a blocker until you can get control over the board, and the scarab is a good one.

Another change I made (although this one is by no means universally recommended, it was made to cover a personal deficiency of mine) was to run a pair or Extirpates main and another in the SB. Beyond helping in tough matches like cemetery and attrition strategies, it's primary use is to get me some information, in a field plenty of jungle wildlife and creative technologies, as the one here in Brazil, or in an European GP. But I agree with the aforementioned Entomb replacing some LftLs and Raven's Crimes. It could bring an interesting and very welcome piece of consistency to the whole thing. I liked it.

And Witness-Stronghold. No argument about shroud being bonks or the like convinces me about not running her. SHE's the true bonks in this deck.

[Nekrataal]

Initial thoughts of this deck after several days of playtime.

1. I don't like Raven's Crime here. I see the point of it, but I don't like it. I've cut down to one because sometimes I need it to force a kill condition through and can Entomb for it, and may cut down to 0.

2. Hymn to Tourach is good. That is all.

3. I find it really difficult to get my kill conditions to go the distance post-board. Not only am I shut down by graveyard hate, but I've also had to contend with Engineered Plague, which can be a huge pain in the ass against me. Does anyone have any brilliant ideas for additional kill conditions? I've been experimenting with Dread and Vigor (Vigor + Gigapede = ridiculous), but they're When and not If abilities, so they're just as vulnerable to graveyard hate. I've also been wanting to tinker around with manlands. Suggestions?

I play 1x Syphon Life (substitudes the second Raven's Crime in my deck) and 2x Factories in addition though I am thinking of Gargoyle castle as well.

[FoolofaTook]

Initial thoughts of this deck after several days of playtime.

1. I don't like Raven's Crime here. I see the point of it, but I don't like it. I've cut down to one because sometimes I need it to force a kill condition through and can Entomb for it, and may cut down to 0.

Raven's Crime is the card I least like in the deck at this point. If the rest of the deck is working it doesn't really matter what they have in hand and if it's not you really need to find a way to get back on track which Raven's Crime does not do. I'm playing 2x Root Maze in it's place and still eyeing the StP's for movement to the sideboard also.


2. Hymn to Tourach is good. That is all.

It's also inadequately synergistic in the destroy the opponent's mana base theme. Yes, it's a great card but it is inferior to Sinkhole and Smallpox in the theme and there really is not room for it in my opinion. It's a dead topdeck once you get the theme going and it's a poor substitute for landkill before that.


3. I find it really difficult to get my kill conditions to go the distance post-board. Not only am I shut down by graveyard hate, but I've also had to contend with Engineered Plague, which can be a huge pain in the ass against me. Does anyone have any brilliant ideas for additional kill conditions? I've been experimenting with Dread and Vigor (Vigor + Gigapede = ridiculous), but they're When and not If abilities, so they're just as vulnerable to graveyard hate. I've also been wanting to tinker around with manlands. Suggestions?

One option would be to put in 4 Goyfs and take out the Gigapede and the Worm Harvest along with 2 other cards least advantageous in the matchup. If they're smart enough to keep their critter removal in AND bring in the GY hate that is in their board then there's game 3. This deck wins game 1 enough to make that a viable proposition.

[Windux]

Goyf + 4 Innocent Blood + 4 Smallpox != Good ;)

I would add a Gargoyle Castle, but Worm Harvest and Gigapede are good win-options, which shouldn't be replaced with something that can't recurr.

[SilverGreen]

Worm Harvest and Gigapede are good win-options
Actually, they aren't.

[Nekrataal]

It's also inadequately synergistic in the destroy the opponent's mana base theme. Yes, it's a great card but it is inferior to Sinkhole and Smallpox in the theme and there really is not room for it in my opinion. It's a dead topdeck once you get the theme going and it's a poor substitute for landkill before that.

Creature removal might be dead as well if your opponent cannot cast anything because he is screwed. Hymn are best early and against control like stated before.




I have been trying Grave-Shell Scarab in Worm's Harvest's slot, because it dodges both the aforementioned answers all by itself. Played wisely, it'll never be shot by StP or Crypt. And it has the additional benefits of not die to every 1/1 in the format, like the other insect in the deck, and isn't sweeped by a card of the Engineered kind. There's many times where all you need is a blocker until you can get control over the board, and the scarab is a good one.


I like the general idea of that guy since it has some synergies with the overall theme and it can recur although I deny that the guy is the blocker you need sometimes until you control the board since that stage of the game usually appears early on and the mana needed to cast him isn't assembled then especially if you want to be prepared against removal to keep him either in your GY or in play. Actually he is more a replacement for Gigapede since it is a recurring creature. His wanna-be shroud ability costs mana and removes him from the battlefield which is a drawback compared to Gigapede. He also has less power (OK more toughness). He is less vulnerable against GY removal if you have a SDT out (he of course cannot dodge Extirpates) and he draws you a card. So generally speaking he could be better G2. I wouldn't replace Worm Harvests slot since it is a different Wincondition that needs certain setups/gamestates to work.

[FoolofaTook]

Creature removal might be dead as well if your opponent cannot cast anything because he is screwed. Hymn are best early and against control like stated before.

The problem with Hymn to Tourach in this deck is that you're not going to use the momentary disruption, which can be considerable, to win the game. This deck isn't like a suicide deck where it's trying really hard to totally disrupt the opponent between turns 1 and 4 so that the game can be won by turn 7 or 8 at the latest. This deck is trying to put a continuous disruption effect in play that it can then use to win the long game.

If the mana disruption effect is not largely successful by turn 3 or 4 at the latest the odds are very good the deck is going to lose. In that scenario drawing a Hymn to Tourach on turn 3 is potentially deadly because if it knocks creature removal and a creature out of the oppponent's hand it has done almost nothing for your chances to win the game. It has to hit something relevant, like a land or other mana source or a counter that might prevent one of your landkill effects from working. The opponent never has land in their hand after turn 3 or 4 at the outside unless they are trying to draw a couple of fetches to then drop sequentially to bootstrap their mana. If you're playing Root Maze even that does not work.


Goyf + 4 Innocent Blood + 4 Smallpox != Good ;)

Goyf is always good. Siding in 4 Goyf with the 8 creature removal options above still leaves you in control of when you play your Goyf and when he goes away.

Removing Gigapede and Worm Harvest for Goyf game 2 makes you less vulnerable to the GY hate your opponent will be tuning in and also leaves you a great chance to catch them with their pants down if they have removed a significant chunk of their anti-creature suite.

[chokin]

Actually, they aren't.

They're pretty sick, dude. And Raven's Crime is great too. I had a friend sleeve this up and it pretty much owns people game one. Game two is where we had problems. Graveyard hate proved to be tough to work around, but if you can send your opponent into topdeck mode via Raven's Crime on repeat, that's a huge start.

Too many times the game went turn 1, Land, Mox, Crime, Retrace, Go...turn 2, Loam, Land, Retrace, Retrace. 5 discard hits is not fun to play against.

Worm's Harvest is pretty cool too, because you can just keep on dredging and then bam...a win condition that doesn't lose to spot removal or sweeper effects.

[SilverGreen]

Stuff about ScarabI like the general idea of that guy since it has some synergies with the overall theme and it can recur although I deny that the guy is the blocker you need sometimes until you control the board since that stage of the game usually appears early on and the mana needed to cast him isn't assembled then especially if you want to be prepared against removal to keep him either in your GY or in play. Actually he is more a replacement for Gigapede since it is a recurring creature. His wanna-be shroud ability costs mana and removes him from the battlefield which is a drawback compared to Gigapede. He also has less power (OK more toughness). He is less vulnerable against GY removal if you have a SDT out (he of course cannot dodge Extirpates) and he draws you a card. So generally speaking he could be better G2. I wouldn't replace Worm Harvests slot since it is a different Wincondition that needs certain setups/gamestates to work.No one will crack a Crypt on a Top-sheltered scarab, but dredge always work very fine with cycling lands.

I'm not confortable with Harvest, it's too much vulnerable for a so precious card. The original list focuses so much in shutting off creature removal, but as soon as your opponent figures out removal is dead weight, he will promptly replace it with graveyard hate, and then you're in deep shit. Beyond being functional creature removal against this deck, GY hate hurts a lot its overall strategy. In fact, playing this kind of threat you'll be doing to your opponent a favor: you'll evade him to have to make a decision, delivering him a premade, easy and safe option.

I think it's key to this deck diversify its gameplan. Scarab (or any other analogue) forces your opponent to make a choice. You already have a strong graveyard dependence on Loam engine, so making all your threats also GY-dependent, putting all your poop in one toilet, makes very easy for your opponent do a mess with just a single flush. Remember, the best hosers in the format are everywhere and cost just a single or no mana.

Harvest/Crime are two times vulnerable to GY hate: aimed to themselves or to LftL. Furthermore, worm tokens are prey to a number of tier 1, 2 and 3 cards widely played, from Engineered Explosives to Maelstrom Pulse to Engineered Plague to Firespout to Pernicious Deed to Echoing Truth to Pyroclasm to Ghostly Prison and so on. Gigapede is a little better in this matter, at least it's a little more resilient, and was made to play outside the graveyard the majority of time.

I'm still not fond on Scarab being the solution this deck needs, it's just the better I could get by now. But I'm convinced about Worm Harvest doesn't being the right call.

[dorsch]

I don't understand why everyone is worried about threats which are grave dependant. It's the big advantage that these cards are recurrable. You might still use them, after they got dredged.

Haunting Echoes is immune to your oppenents graveyard hate.

While worm harvest is indeed easily removable, gigapede is not, if you get it back to your hand as soon as possible and drop it after establishing board control.

worm harvest though has one big advantage over gigapede/grave shell scarab: It can block multiple creatures and has to be blocked by more than one creature.
If your opponent drops creature after creature and you are using all your resources to find removal, a topdecked (or dredged) worm harvest solves all your problems. Neither gigapede nor scarab can do that.

Gigapedes advantages over scarab: it has real shroud (late game, each removal will buy one turn for your opponent, no need to keep always 1 mana open), finishes the opponent quicker, kills goyfs, recurs for one discarded card, not for a replaced draw.
Disadvantages: Toughness of 1.
I hardly ever block with gigapede and still its better at blocking tarmogoyfs.

I don't thing one finisher is truly superior to another, but as you said, you shuld diversify the win conditions. scarab and gigapede are very similar so i will only play one of these and add a worm harvest. (and one nether spirit, which i am not sure about and still testing)

[Raystar]

Yesterday I spent an afternoon (I'm on Holiday, hehe) testing the deck. With a friend we decided to test 2 different matchups (around 15 games each):

Rb Goblins
UW Landstill (Decree, Crucible, Eternal Dragon, Elspeth)


I played a slightly different version of Trisomy with 2 Tabernacle MD in the place of the Raven's Crimes. I was also using the following Sideboard (more on it later):

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Choke
2 Pithing Needle
2 Zuran Orb
4 Sphere of Resistance


Here you go with a summary of the results:

Goblins: I play Tabernacle MD and between it and some focus on not letting Goblins mana disruption plan develop I won 9 of 15 matches. I have to say that I expected it and it is the reason I haven't prepared a specialized sideboard against the gobs. Your best hands on the play are the ones in which you manage to drop Mox and land turn 1 holding an explosive and a sinkhole, in this cases you can get a devastating 2 to 1 on their vials (once, they are not going to fall for that twice :) ) and lackeys plus a land kill the turn after. Tabernacle is key, if you drop it and have loam to recur it they have a very difficult time building their horde. Post-side you have to watch for their yard hate (as always), if they pack Relics they will force you to save your Explosives for them. If they are not careful enough and play both Relic and Vial you have pretty much won the game.

Landstill: I specifically used the most problematic build for Trisomy: Crucible MD is a pain against us. UW Landstill packs tons of basics and game one you have a ton of dead cards (Innocent Blod, StP..hell, even Smallpox is a lot less effective). Pre-side I won 1 out of 8 games and post-side I won 3 out of eight (I sided in the chokes and the spheres). Overall this is a very bad matchup, if they manage to keep 2 islands and defend a Crucible there is very little we can do. Another nasty situation for Trisomy is when they cast an Elspeth and defend it against Vindicates. I hoped to have a better matchup post-side but they bring in Relics and Meddling Mages making it a lot more difficult to break both Crucible and Elspeth.

A couple of words on our win conditions: against Goblins it doesn't matter what we have, when we are ready to close the game we could use a Llanowar elf and win anyway. Against Landstill I found the Worms not as good as I thought beforehand. I'm thinking of making the following changes and test (probably not good, but, hey, it's a test :) ):

- 1 Tabernacle
- 1 Worms
- 1 Tranquil Thicket
- 1 Loam

+ 1 Underground Sea
+ 1 Academy Ruins
+ 1 Thopter Foundry
+ 1 Sword of the Meek

The foundry combo is a lot more resilient than the worms against grave hate and once started is really strong. In addition we get to recur our explosives and we can fire them at 4 even without the help of a Mox. Mox can become the start of the Foundry chain if the Sword is in the yard (explosives at 0 can do that too). The Foundry combo is more difficult to put together but a lot less expensive in terms of mana to drop, making it a bit easier to launch after several Smallpoxes.

Please let me know what you guys think.

[Wargoos]

Yesterday I spent an afternoon (I'm on Holiday, hehe) testing the deck. With a friend we decided to test 2 different matchups (around 15 games each):

Rb Goblins
UW Landstill (Decree, Crucible, Eternal Dragon, Elspeth)


I played a slightly different version of Trisomy with 2 Tabernacle MD in the place of the Raven's Crimes. I was also using the following Sideboard (more on it later):

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Choke
2 Pithing Needle
2 Zuran Orb
4 Sphere of Resistance


Here you go with a summary of the results:

Goblins: I play Tabernacle MD and between it and some focus on not letting Goblins mana disruption plan develop I won 9 of 15 matches. I have to say that I expected it and it is the reason I haven't prepared a specialized sideboard against the gobs. Your best hands on the play are the ones in which you manage to drop Mox and land turn 1 holding an explosive and a sinkhole, in this cases you can get a devastating 2 to 1 on their vials (once, they are not going to fall for that twice :) ) and lackeys plus a land kill the turn after. Tabernacle is key, if you drop it and have loam to recur it they have a very difficult time building their horde. Post-side you have to watch for their yard hate (as always), if they pack Relics they will force you to save your Explosives for them. If they are not careful enough and play both Relic and Vial you have pretty much won the game.

Landstill: I specifically used the most problematic build for Trisomy: Crucible MD is a pain against us. UW Landstill packs tons of basics and game one you have a ton of dead cards (Innocent Blod, StP..hell, even Smallpox is a lot less effective). Pre-side I won 1 out of 8 games and post-side I won 3 out of eight (I sided in the chokes and the spheres). Overall this is a very bad matchup, if they manage to keep 2 islands and defend a Crucible there is very little we can do. Another nasty situation for Trisomy is when they cast an Elspeth and defend it against Vindicates. I hoped to have a better matchup post-side but they bring in Relics and Meddling Mages making it a lot more difficult to break both Crucible and Elspeth.

A couple of words on our win conditions: against Goblins it doesn't matter what we have, when we are ready to close the game we could use a Llanowar elf and win anyway. Against Landstill I found the Worms not as good as I thought beforehand. I'm thinking of making the following changes and test (probably not good, but, hey, it's a test :) ):

- 1 Tabernacle
- 1 Worms
- 1 Tranquil Thicket
- 1 Loam

+ 1 Underground Sea
+ 1 Academy Ruins
+ 1 Thopter Foundry
+ 1 Sword of the Meek

The foundry combo is a lot more resilient than the worms against grave hate and once started is really strong. In addition we get to recur our explosives and we can fire them at 4 even without the help of a Mox. Mox can become the start of the Foundry chain if the Sword is in the yard (explosives at 0 can do that too). The Foundry combo is more difficult to put together but a lot less expensive in terms of mana to drop, making it a bit easier to launch after several Smallpoxes.

Please let me know what you guys think.

When you're playing white already, why not trying
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/eve/3.jpg?

[Raystar]

When you're playing white already, why not trying
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/eve/3.jpg?

That would pretty much like playing Worm Harvest but would produce less tokens....

[FoolofaTook]

I'll have to test the Landstill matchup some more I guess. I wasn't having problems in the few games we played. It takes 3 mana to cast Crucible in the first place and Landstill has trouble getting there against this deck.

One of the things that helps Landstill out is that 23-25 lands is enough to reliably get 2 mana in play and keep it for a awhile. That still does not get Crucible in play reliably though and Landstill does not have much that casts off of 2 mana and threatens, maybe Standstill being the best they can hope for at that level.

The thing that I'm finding with the deck in general is that having 16 potential landkill in the deck against the 19-21 lands that the average opponent is playing is enough to shut them down fairly reliably until wasteland recursion finishes the job. I do want to find 2 more landkill options for the sideboard to bring in against other loam decks and Landstill. 18 would be a better number to shut down mana in those matchups.

[Raystar]

I'll have to test the Landstill matchup some more I guess. I wasn't having problems in the few games we played. It takes 3 mana to cast Crucible in the first place and Landstill has trouble getting there against this deck.

One of the things that helps Landstill out is that 23-25 lands is enough to reliably get 2 mana in play and keep it for a awhile. That still does not get Crucible in play reliably though and Landstill does not have much that casts off of 2 mana and threatens, maybe Standstill being the best they can hope for at that level.

The thing that I'm finding with the deck in general is that having 16 potential landkill in the deck against the 19-21 lands that the average opponent is playing is enough to shut them down fairly reliably until wasteland recursion finishes the job. I do want to find 2 more landkill options for the sideboard to bring in against other loam decks and Landstill. 18 would be a better number to shut down mana in those matchups.

I thought the same before playing Landstill...the problem is that when they get 2 blue mana out they will counter your attempts to take them back to 1. As soon as they manage to have standstill going you are forced to break it very quickly and they are able to get the third mana and drop Crucible.

I completely agree with you regarding the additional land destruction, I was actually thinking of removing the StP for a pair of Armageddons or Ice Storms...thoughts?

What do you think of the alternate wincon?

[FoolofaTook]

I thought the same before playing Landstill...the problem is that when they get 2 blue mana out they will counter your attempts to take them back to 1. As soon as they manage to have standstill going you are forced to break it very quickly and they are able to get the third mana and drop Crucible.

I just had a thought on this, the version of Landstill that I was testing against had just 8 counters: 4x Force of Will, 2x Counterspell and 2x Spell Snare. I'm betting the version you tested against was 9+ counters, or had 4x Spell Snare? That would explain some of the difference.


I completely agree with you regarding the additional land destruction, I was actually thinking of removing the StP for a pair of Armageddons or Ice Storms...thoughts?

Not Armageddon. We spend the entire game making that into a 5 for 2 trade against us. Ice storm is possible but I'd like a card with alternate uses if possible. I'm looking at Rancid Earth, since Landstill and loam decks both have a tendency to generate 1/1 tokens. Obviously Rancid Earth works against us in some cases but we're in control of that for the most part.


What do you think of the alternate wincon?

It looks strictly worse than Worm Harvest. If I was to go for an additional win con I would like it to cast for 3 or less, maybe Luminarch Ascension. The two win cons currently in the deck are typical heavy control win cons and I'd like something that could be run out quicker against a slow control deck and force them to respond through all the disruption going on.

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

I followed the discussion and it's very interresting. I agree with you that Raven's Crime seems to be the weakest card in the deck. I wanted to replace them many times, but I haven't found a good replacement yet. After I followed this discussion I imagined how a card that I just considered as sideboard-material before would look like in the maindeck. I'm speaking of Extirpate. I would play three of them, cutting one Innocent Blood and two Raven's Crime.

Here are the reasons why it COULD be good in this deck:
- pseudo landdestruction-spell that could also handles problematic threats that were destroyed before
- it sometimes trades 1:1
- gives you information
- uncounterable
- shuffles the library of the opponent to maybe get through Counterbalance
- improves nearly every matchup
- gives you more SB-space

And here the good things about Raven's Crime:
- in a few situation we could lock out the opponent
- isn't dead if it goes to the graveyard


Maybe I left out a few points on Extirpate, you could add some if you want. That's how my recent list would look like:

// Lands
1 [OD] Cabal Pit
2 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 [A] Bayou
2 [MI] Swamp (4)
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [A] Scrubland
4 [ON] Barren Moor
1 [CHK] Forest (2)

// Creatures
1 [ON] Gigapede

// Spells
3 [OD] Innocent Blood
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
1 [EVE] Worm Harvest
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [TSP] Smallpox
4 [A] Sinkhole
2 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [PLC] Extirpate

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [US] Duress
SB: 2 [EVE] Raven's Crime
SB: 4 Sadistic Sacrament

[dorsch]

No Verdant catacombs but a basic Forest? Seems like a typo.

Why are Extirpates better than Thoughtseize/Hymn to Tourach?
To quote yourself:
"You're cutting removal for discard which, in my eyes, isn't the right way to go."
Why does this statement not appeal to Extirpate?

I play 3 Thoughtseizes main and prefer them. They actually remove a threat (from the hand) where Extirpate "COULD" remove something threatening. I sideboard Extirpate vs. Canadian and Landstill, besides grave dependant decks, but I think it does not save your ass versus aggro (aggro control) decks in the first turns of a game, so its no maindeck card. For game 1 I don't need to improve my late game

[Nekrataal]

I just would like to add here that Ravens Crime is great against (Control) Landstill because it can empty there hands and get rid off Counters. :tongue:

[SilverGreen]

I just would like to add here that Ravens Crime is great against (Control) Landstill because it can empty there hands and get rid off Counters. :tongue:Although the weaker link in the chain in the MD, it would be fine run a pair or them in the SB.

Brot_Ohne_Kruste's last configuration seems almost optimal to me, yet I still dislike Worm's Harvest. Further changes look like personal taste or metagame calls up from now.

For me at least, the core discussion now could be about Raven's Crime open slots. I see as natural candidates to the seat:

Extirpate
Not always we're able to imply all the key nuances of opponent's gameplan, and I think it's more important to proactive disruption strategies to know your opponent's cardpool than it's to a reactive strategy. Does he run Elspeths or not? If you confirm he does, you'll more likely aim your disruption to his white sources. How many counterspells does he play, 8, 10 or more? You may spend your lure spells accordingly. There's a boarded-in card causing headaches to you? Get rid of all remaining copies of it and keep playing with no worries. Does he play a low land count and rely on blue cantrips do dig and shuffle? Nice, fire the fetchlands in his graveyard. He's targeting Iona with Dread Return? Shoot her! Better, shoot Dread Return itself with your next Extirpate. Your EEs will look so much better after this.

Oh, sure. You'll know exactly which kind of hate he's bringing in against you, and won't throw your so precious Worm's Harvest in front of it carelessly.

Entomb
Wouldn't be better do not draw a second or third copy of LftL every time you need a finisher in place of it? Entomb let you cut down the number of cards you don't want in multiples and put at hand exactly what you need in a given situation (not exactly at hand, but it's like it was).

Thoughtseize
Again, what's the meaning of discard an entire opponent's hand, when you just need to remove his FoW? TS does it and more, it's stronger against fast combo, it's creature removal in disguise, it's far less resource hungry and - you already know - don't cry for yard hate. Furthermore, it puts the control over the discard in your hand, rather than the opponent's. If the :b: slot wasn't so stuck already, I would love to play a set of this one.


One more thing to finish: no thoughts about Witness+Stronghold? With fewer cards with retrace in the deck, I think she's getting even more sexy now...

[Nekrataal]

Although the weaker link in the chain in the MD, it would be fine run a pair or them in the SB.

Brot_Ohne_Kruste's last configuration seems almost optimal to me, yet I still dislike Worm's Harvest. Further changes look like personal taste or metagame calls up from now.

For me at least, the core discussion now could be about Raven's Crime open slots. I see as natural candidates to the seat:

Extirpate
Not always we're able to imply all the key nuances of opponent's gameplan, and I think it's more important to proactive disruption strategies to know your opponent's cardpool than it's to a reactive strategy. Does he run Elspeths or not? If you confirm he does, you'll more likely aim your disruption to his white sources. How many counterspells does he play, 8, 10 or more? You may spend your lure spells accordingly. There's a boarded-in card causing headaches to you? Get rid of all remaining copies of it and keep playing with no worries. Does he play a low land count and rely on blue cantrips do dig and shuffle? Nice, fire the fetchlands in his graveyard. He's targeting Iona with Dread Return? Shoot her! Better, shoot Dread Return itself with your next Extirpate. Your EEs will look so much better after this.

Oh, sure. You'll know exactly which kind of hate he's bringing in against you, and won't throw your so precious Worm's Harvest in front of it carelessly.

Entomb
Wouldn't be better do not draw a second or third copy of LftL every time you need a finisher in place of it? Entomb let you cut down the number of cards you don't want in multiples and put at hand exactly what you need in a given situation (not exactly at hand, but it's like it was).

Thoughtseize
Again, what's the meaning of discard an entire opponent's hand, when you just need to remove his FoW? TS does it and more, it's stronger against fast combo, it's creature removal in disguise, it's far less resource hungry and - you already know - don't cry for yard hate. Furthermore, it puts the control over the discard in your hand, rather than the opponent's. If the :b: slot wasn't so stuck already, I would love to play a set of this one.


One more thing to finish: no thoughts about Witness+Stronghold? With fewer cards with retrace in the deck, I think she's getting even more sexy now...

I played 2 Witness / 1 Stronghold configuration when my deck was just BG and it was just too fancy. You need some amount of mana to actually bring back Witness (EoT), play here and play the spell you retrieved. Also you need at least GG, Stronghold in play or in GY (with Loam) and a Witness which is sometimes hard to come by. In the end my experience was, that it looked good on paper but in real games it almost never mattered. BTW at that time I also played 2 Entombs so it should have been easier to assemble the parts.

In my current sideboard I also play Extirpate (no Leylines of the Void but Crypty!). The reason behind is that only very few cards are a real nuisance in GY enabling strategies against us and that can be handled by Extripates (Loam, Dread Return) except for Dredge and maybe Enchantress whre Crypts come in. THey also provide valuable information how to deal with your opponent and can cut him of from a color completely.

[FoolofaTook]

I played 2 Witness / 1 Stronghold configuration when my deck was just BG and it was just too fancy. You need some amount of mana to actually bring back Witness (EoT), play here and play the spell you retrieved. Also you need at least GG, Stronghold in play or in GY (with Loam) and a Witness which is sometimes hard to come by. In the end my experience was, that it looked good on paper but in real games it almost never mattered. BTW at that time I also played 2 Entombs so it should have been easier to assemble the parts.

You need 3 Witness if you are going that route. 2 is just too random to justify putting Stronghold in with nothing else of value to be gained from it. You're right that it is slow though and mana-intensive. I looked at Genesis also, alongside 3 Witness, to try to get the concept working and it's just generally weak because of the mana requirements. Genesis gives you poorer timing since you have to make the play during your upkeep, however it is also an alternate win con and it gives you card advantage.

[dorsch]

Although the weaker link in the chain in the MD, it would be fine run a pair or them in the SB.

Brot_Ohne_Kruste's last configuration seems almost optimal to me, yet I still dislike Worm's Harvest. Further changes look like personal taste or metagame calls up from now.
I like Worm Harvest, because its a great blocker, when you lost control during lategame and is a very quick finisher when you are in control.
Once again: the fetch lands in his list are wrong.


For me at least, the core discussion now could be about Raven's Crime open slots. I see as natural candidates to the seat:
Hoping for a good discussion


Extirpate
Not always we're able to imply all the key nuances of opponent's gameplan, and I think it's more important to proactive disruption strategies to know your opponent's cardpool than it's to a reactive strategy. Does he run Elspeths or not? If you confirm he does, you'll more likely aim your disruption to his white sources. How many counterspells does he play, 8, 10 or more? You may spend your lure spells accordingly. There's a boarded-in card causing headaches to you? Get rid of all remaining copies of it and keep playing with no worries. Does he play a low land count and rely on blue cantrips do dig and shuffle? Nice, fire the fetchlands in his graveyard. He's targeting Iona with Dread Return? Shoot her! Better, shoot Dread Return itself with your next Extirpate. Your EEs will look so much better after this.
Oh, sure. You'll know exactly which kind of hate he's bringing in against you, and won't throw your so precious Worm's Harvest in front of it carelessly.
Besides the fact, there are 3-4 targets you should get rid of with Extirpate, _before_ you remove Dread Return, almost all your arguments show, that Extirpate is an excellent sideboard card. I board Extirpate versus graveyard strategies as well as Landstill (slow Control, less win conditions), Canadian Thresh (Extirpate Tropical Island is often gg) and Combo.
But game 1 you dont want to get an Extirpate in your Hand versus Zoo, Goblins, Rock or anything else. When you desperately look for a removal for their creature, it's useless that you might extirpate it afterwards. You will just die, or face another creature next.
Just some thoughts: When you remove their Tarmogoyf from their library, this play was only good,
IF the cards they draw next WOULD have been indeed that Tarmogoyf and
IF the card they draw instead is worse than said extirpated Tarmogoyf.
You COULD extirpate a card from their hand, but that hardly happens even if you play with Thoughtseize.



Entomb
Wouldn't be better do not draw a second or third copy of LftL every time you need a finisher in place of it? Entomb let you cut down the number of cards you don't want in multiples and put at hand exactly what you need in a given situation (not exactly at hand, but it's like it was).
Exactly my opinion.
Cut Loam to 3, Ravens crime to 1 and add 2 Entomb. Maybe one Nether Spirit. Does not need much slots (or no slots, if you run many grave-cards and cut them down to 1) but improves the deck a lot. It even allows a sideboard toolbox like syphon life. Coffin purge gets better too.


Thoughtseize
Again, what's the meaning of discard an entire opponent's hand, when you just need to remove his FoW? TS does it and more, it's stronger against fast combo, it's creature removal in disguise, it's far less resource hungry and - you already know - don't cry for yard hate. Furthermore, it puts the control over the discard in your hand, rather than the opponent's. If the :b: slot wasn't so stuck already, I would love to play a set of this one.
I couldn't agree more.
I'd like to ask: What are the best turn 1 cards, on the play? Senseis Divining Top and cycling lands. (Maybe fetch+mox+loam if you are very lucky)
Since Top isn't very powerful until some turns later, Thoughtseize is the best turn 1 card you could get. It improves matches versus blue decks, despite combo is still an auto loss.



One more thing to finish: no thoughts about Witness+Stronghold? With fewer cards with retrace in the deck, I think she's getting even more sexy now...
Besides the arguments Nekrataal and FoolofaTook brought against this:
3+3 mana + 1 draw to get ONE card from your graveyard in your hand? Imagine you put 3 mana into the top, got one fetchland and one loam to dredge, you will see 9 cards of your library, most likely you will find your removal.
I don't want to cut solid cards from the deck to become even more vulnerable to graveyard hate, besides creature removal.

[Rune]

Hi, cool deck but doesn't it roll over completely to decks with Extirpate? Also, I think there should be some sort of lifegain in the deck. Otherwise it's simply impossible to beat burn.

[FoolofaTook]

Hi, cool deck but doesn't it roll over completely to decks with Extirpate? Also, I think there should be some sort of lifegain in the deck. Otherwise it's simply impossible to beat burn.

Burn is not really a huge issue. If Black Vises were available it would be, since your landkill and removal would kill you as it piled up in your hand. This deck does lose to burn sometimes but it also shuts down burn very handily at times. It's probably a 40/60 thing preboard and somewhat better after that.

Extirpate could be a problem, but it really isn't played that often. The nightmare matchup would be a Gbw Rock shell with Aether Vials, mana creatures and Extirpate. I think I have played one deck that matched that description and that was a ways back when people were still experimenting with the Rock a lot.

[Rune]

Ah ok, but I just tested it against burn and I think it's impossible to win without lifegain. I kept him below 1 land all the time but everytime he drew one he would throw 1CC 3 damage burn to my face, and I didn't have time to discard his hand with Raven's Crime. But Burn is a joke deck anyway in my oppinion so I don't know if it should be taken in to consideration.

[FoolofaTook]

Ah ok, but I just tested it against burn and I think it's impossible to win without lifegain. I kept him below 1 land all the time but everytime he drew one he would throw 1CC 3 damage burn to my face, and I didn't have time to discard his hand with Raven's Crime. But Burn is a joke deck anyway in my oppinion so I don't know if it should be taken in to consideration.

If the burn player draws 6x Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning then you're probably going to lose. He does put a clock on you to go find Worm Harvest or Gigapede.

After game 1 I'm tuning in Root Maze and that solves the drop a land and bolt you problem very nicely.

[Forbiddian]

Extirpate is a bad card in the current meta. It's not a good hate spell against Reanimator and Ichorid, the two decks you actually want to yard hate.


I wonder how the deck fares against the various combo matchups, especially Belcher. I guess this deck is mainly European/German, but Ad Nauseum represented 1/12th of the metagame at SCG LA and Belcher combo represented another large chunk.

Belcher combo especially uses neither creatures nor lands.

I'd consider those two decks to be the decks to beat at the moment, so are there any maindeck changes (like inclusions of Duress even) or board changes that might keep you competitive with the new surge of combo?

[FoolofaTook]

Extirpate is a bad card in the current meta. It's not a good hate spell against Reanimator and Ichorid, the two decks you actually want to yard hate.


I wonder how the deck fares against the various combo matchups, especially Belcher. I guess this deck is mainly European/German, but Ad Nauseum represented 1/12th of the metagame at SCG LA and Belcher combo represented another large chunk.

Belcher combo especially uses neither creatures nor lands.

I'd consider those two decks to be the decks to beat at the moment, so are there any maindeck changes (like inclusions of Duress even) or board changes that might keep you competitive with the new surge of combo?

Root Maze against Belcher. Lands turn 1 and could easily win for you since it cuts off the Bayou opening.

[Nekrataal]

You need 3 Witness if you are going that route. 2 is just too random to justify putting Stronghold in with nothing else of value to be gained from it. You're right that it is slow though and mana-intensive. I looked at Genesis also, alongside 3 Witness, to try to get the concept working and it's just generally weak because of the mana requirements. Genesis gives you poorer timing since you have to make the play during your upkeep, however it is also an alternate win con and it gives you card advantage.

The deck is already very tight. The initial deck therefore plays 2 Winconditions only. Putting in 3 Witnesses takes one extra slot and you need to Witness-beat your opponent's face a couple of times with it => not good. If you add extra Win conditions or stay with the current ones you loose even more slots => not good. Also Entomb is not as good as it sounds. It sometimes takes a Turn to get what you want, it uses up slots and it can be countered if its importance in a situation is known by the blue mage. The latter is not the usual "it can becountered" argument because Loam, Crime are there to stay even when countered, Entomb is not, so I rather draw a Loam than an Entomb. Sure it adds more flexibility and I thought so too at first but when you play the deck you almost never feel the need for that especially when there are times you find dredging it into your GY. The most compelling argument for me to have tried Entomb actually was to find a Winconditions much faster. Then I realized that I just could just play some more versatile wincondition directly ending up in my current build with 2x Factories and 1x Syphon Life.


Extirpate is a bad card in the current meta. It's not a good hate spell against Reanimator and Ichorid, the two decks you actually want to yard hate.


I wonder how the deck fares against the various combo matchups, especially Belcher. I guess this deck is mainly European/German, but Ad Nauseum represented 1/12th of the metagame at SCG LA and Belcher combo represented another large chunk.

Belcher combo especially uses neither creatures nor lands.

I'd consider those two decks to be the decks to beat at the moment, so are there any maindeck changes (like inclusions of Duress even) or board changes that might keep you competitive with the new surge of combo?

Granted against Dredge which is GY only it isn't enough but against Reanimator it is all you need. UB Reanimator plays not more than 5 creatures usually. The only one you have to Extirpate is Iona. The rest can be dealt with Innocent Blood and or Smallpox. Mono B maybe easier since they have no counters. I am not saying that the matchup is easy but with Extirpate plus e.g. Crypt you are in very good shape. Also StoP helps here since you have 2 removal colors and Reanimator cannot shut down both. Also other recursive GY strategies (card advantage engines) can be handled by Extirpates easily without the need to shut down the complete GY like Loam, CoW, Incarnations, Academy Ruins. Either its a spell that automatically goes to the GY or you need to destroy one permanent to get rid off it afterwards.

[FoolofaTook]

The deck is already very tight. The initial deck therefore plays 2 Winconditions only. Putting in 3 Witnesses takes one extra slot and you need to Witness-beat your opponent's face a coupple of times with it => not good. If you add extra Win conditions you loose even more slots => not good.

This is an argument for Witness just doesn't fit in the deck. Putting in Volrath's Stronghold plus 2 Witness is 3 slots better used elsewhere.


This BTW, is what I tried very briefly. It failed due to lack of predictability early in the game and was weaker than the normal list.

4x Sinkhole
4x Smallpox
4x Vindicate
4x Wasteland

4x Diabolic Edict (to prevent going to get removal and having to give up your Witness also)
2x Swords to Plowshares
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3x Engineered Explosives

3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Life from the Loam
3x Eternal Witness
1x Genesis
1x Worm Harvest

4x Mox Diamond
4x Barren Moor
1x Tranquil Thicket
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Polluted Delta
3x Bayou
2x Scrubland
2x Swamp
1x Forest

[Cthuloo]

If the burn player draws 6x Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning then you're probably going to lose. He does put a clock on you to go find Worm Harvest or Gigapede.

After game 1 I'm tuning in Root Maze and that solves the drop a land and bolt you problem very nicely.

I burn and combo are a problem (and IMHO they are), maybe it's worth do devote some SB slots to Chalice of The Void. In both cases you could side out 2 Plows and 2 Innocent Blood, so the chalices wont hurt you that much.

[Nekrataal]

I burn and combo are a problem (and IMHO they are), maybe it's worth do devote some SB slots to Chalice of The Void. In both cases you could side out 2 Plows and 2 Innocent Blood, so the chalices wont hurt you that much.
These cards are usually worthless anyway against the mentioned decks so it doesn't hurt a bit.

[Cthuloo]

These cards are usually worthless anyway against the mentioned decks so it doesn't hurt a bit.

Yes, this was my point, maybe I wasn't very clear :tongue:

Basically what I meant is that you could easily side out those four cards for four chalices, because they're worthless anyway, as you said. In addition you will probably side out the other two Innocent Blood for something else, leaving you with only five one-drops (Top and Crimes), meaning chalice (set at one) will hurt you very little :wink:

[Rune]

I don't really like Chalice in this deck. It shuts off a lot of your own good spells and it does close to nothing to improve on the combo matchup. I play ANT and Chalice set on 1 is never a problem, even against decks like aggro Loam that actually have a clock on you. On the other hand a resolved Sadistic Sacrament should force the ANT player to scoop immediately unless he has IGG/AdN + Tendrils in hand or he's playing with Burning Wish I've tested the deck some more and had positive results. I just wish the deck could reccur some of its spells somehow, but Witness + Stronghold doesn't really work. Have you tried a combination of Factories and Urborg's? (I'm just worried about randomly losing to Relic/Crypt when both win conditions are in graveyard)

Edit: Nvm, I just looked at last page and someone had tried it :)

Syphon's Life seems like a good win con, and helps against the burn MU. One thing you should never do is cut the StP's though - it's good to have outs against a reanimated Iona naming black.

If someone has actually played against Extirpate I would like to know what you do if they use it on Loam early on, because it seems like it would be very hard to come back once they have taken the only card that actually generates card advantage from you.

[FoolofaTook]

I burn and combo are a problem (and IMHO they are), maybe it's worth do devote some SB slots to Chalice of The Void. In both cases you could side out 2 Plows and 2 Innocent Blood, so the chalices wont hurt you that much.

I don't want to sound like a broken record here but Root Maze really handles burn and combo fairly efficiently. This deck will remove a tapped land before the opponent can do anything with it most of the time.

The one hairy deal might still be mono-red burn. There are only 12 ways in the deck to remove a mountain and I could see some leakiness occurring there, although I think the resulting loss would be in slow motion - giving some time to recover.

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

I've tested against Zoo. The matchup is really positive, but the Extirpates weren't good at all. So I tested Entombs a little bit. Back in the time when they were in the Swords to Plowshares-slot, they were bad. Now, after testing a little bit, they give the deck a bit more flexibility and is a must-counter for the opponent.

// Lands
1 Cabal Pit
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
4 Wasteland
3 Scrubland
4 Barren Moor
1 Forest

// Creatures
1 Gigapede

// Spells
2 Innocent Blood
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Mox Diamond
1 Worm Harvest
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Vindicate
3 Life from the Loam
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Raven's Crime
2 Entomb

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 3 Solidary Confinement
SB: 3 Sadistic Sacrament
SB: 3 Coffin Purge

Changes I made:
Lands:
-1 Bayou, +1 Scrubland

Spells:
-1 Life from the Loam, -1 Raven's Crime, +2 Entomb
-2 Innocent Blood, +2 Swords to Plowshares


As stated above, Entomb were good in the testings I made, if it isn't in the Swords-slot. I also maxed the Swords to Plowshares to get a better control at the board and I reduced the Innocent Blood. By playing more Swords, I cutted one Bayou for one Scrubland to smooth the manabase for the changes.

[FoolofaTook]

If you play 2x Entomb main deck then I think maybe 1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale instead of Cabal Pit? It's a destroyer of aggro themes with creatures.

The other question I would have for a 2x Entomb setup is maybe a Dust Bowl as a locking piece?

[Illissius]

Tabernacle might look like a land, but it's a spell. The card to cut for it would be another spell.

(This is less clear in a deck with Diamonds and Urborgs, but I think it still holds.)

[FoolofaTook]

Tabernacle might look like a land, but it's a spell. The card to cut for it would be another spell.

(This is less clear in a deck with Diamonds and Urborgs, but I think it still holds.)

I don't think you could support both Tabernacle and Cabal Pit in the main deck. That would be too much of an investment aimed strictly at creatures, and with significant conditionality involved. Probably the right answer would be to replace Cabal Pit with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and one of the Innocent Blood with Tabernacle. That would preserve the 18 direct mana sources in the deck and actually extend the Mox Diamonds slightly. The anti-creature would gain a sweeper at the cost of 2 single removals, with one of them being a midgame option anyway.

The deck is already slightly over the top in it's anti-creature suite however it lacks an efficient sweeper.

This is what my list to do that would probably look like:

4x Sinkhole
4x Smallpox
4x Vindicate
4x Wasteland

3x Life from the Loam
1x Gigapede
1x Worm Harvest
1x Raven's Crime
2x Entomb

2x Innocent Blood (have moved this to 3-3 split with StP so now down to 2)
3x Swords to Plowshares
3x Engineered Explosives

3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Mox Diamond

1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Polluted Delta
2x Bayou
3x Scrubland
2x Swamp
1x Forest
4x Barren Moor
2x Tranquil Thicket

Basically it's BOK's list minus Cabal Pit and an StP and plus Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Tabernacle. I'm staying with an Entomb-less list at the moment but I see his point - it certainly makes Raven's Crime better and promotes the win cons coming out more naturally.

[Nekrataal]

OK I played a grand prix trial in Cologne. Du eto the bad weather only a few ppl showed up (think around 16). Here is a brief match history from what I recall. This was my list:

// Lands
2 [ON] Barren Moor
1 [OD] Cabal Pit
2 [A] Scrubland
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [EVG] Tranquil Thicket
1 [ALA] Forest (3)
2 [BD] Swamp (1)
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [B] Bayou

// Creatures
1 [ON] Gigapede

// Spells
1 [EVE] Raven's Crime
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [A] Sinkhole
4 [AP] Vindicate
1 [EVE] Worm Harvest
1 [EVE] Syphon Life
3 [OD] Innocent Blood
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (2)
4 [TSP] Smallpox
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam
2 [4E] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip


Match 1: Mono U Merfolk
==================

Game 1:
I start and my opponent mulligans to 6 before. On his turn he plays Cursecatcher so I know what he is playing. I have enough LD on my hand and after he dazes the Sinkhole, me takes beats from his Catcher and me sees a Aether Vial coming into play, the second Sinkhole hits his lone Island. On the following 16 Turns he only finds 1 other land which I destroy. I beat with Mishra's Factory until he is at 9 life. He then managed to get the creature presence on the board by putting 3 Lord of Atlantis and one Rejeerey into play from the one Aether Vial. Since I do not draw into enough removal and he has Force of Will I go down to 8 before I dredge into Worm Harvest. With just 3 lands i need to up that count very fast. The following turns I have lucky dredges and play Worm Harvest each turn. Eventually I have just enough tokens to block his small army and then run him over.

This was scary. Even without any land I nearly lost that game. I board in 3 Plagues and since I am unsure what to bring in 3 Prison. Out goes 3 Hymn, Raven's Crime, Syphon Life and one Sinkhole. Maybe not the best choice.

Game 2:
After both of us taking a mulligan my life count is 18,7,1, His plays T1 Aether Vial, T2 Standstill, then BtB (argh!), puts Lord of Atlantis into play then draws 3 cards from me breaking Standstill then plays Wakethrasher and beats me to death. He had the counters for my removal at the right time. Thats that. I thought about bringing in Grips in G2 for Relics, I should have done so but I didn't anticipate BtB since I rarely played this in my Merfolk builds because it sonly relevant for the Loam matchups ... oh Loam . :/

Game 3:
Prisons go out and Grip comes in aloing with 3 Extirpates. All Sinkholes go out since they are dead against Vial. Unfortunately Game 1 took quite long so time is short now. As we go into the extra turns noone really has the chance to win this game ...

Match 2: BWg Planeswalker
==================

At first I think he is playing The Rock but when he plays Bitterblossom and later Ajani I get an idea of what he is playing. As he plays tons of land my first goal is to try to cut him of one color but I have to deal with his Planeswalker Wincondition (Ajani, Elspeth) first and also get rid off Bitterblossom which negates my creature removal. Since he play Witness I have to do this several times. So at first I just doesnt manage to follow my "colorscrew plan". But I manage to get the Loam Engine up and running smoothly and draw more cards than he does. Inbetween I try to beat with Factories but he also has a ton of removal :/ white, exiles .... Finally after 30 minutes my cardadvantage enables me to actually leave him without W mana but I still need a Wincondiation. He is at 13 life then (Fetch, Mishra beatdown, Kitchen Finks he played which I StoPped). I sigh when I cycle-draw into Gigapede which brings him to 7 before we go into the extra turns and I draw my only Syphon Life. He plays Kitchen Finks... argh and goes up to 9 again. Since I cannot attack with Gigapede anymore to give him more life I Syphon Life him for four and lay a Factory. I does nothing, so in the last possible turn I kill him with Syphon Life and going all in.

Match 3: Canadian Thresh
==================

G1 my opponent starts with Tropical so I expect some Thresh build. I hold a LD heavy hand with Loam/Wasteland/Hymn. After Turn 6 he is left with a lone Wasteland and a Mongoose in play which can beat me to 8 life before a removal of mine deals with it. I find Gigapede and start attacking myself for the win. I board in 3 Grips and 3 Extirpate for G2 against Worm Harvest, Raven's Crime, Syphon Life and 3 Hymn. This time I feel that my opponent for sure has Crypts or Relics.

G2 I never find into. He has two Relics from the start that eat up my graveyard so I cannot draw from Loam. He quickly has Threshold at 2 Mongoose keep beating me down. He has enough counter backup so my removal never sticks. My life points go down quickly

G3 I keep a very good hand but know that I probably cannot win this game because only 5 minutes of regular time are left. Unfortunately I get control over the game without any benefit from it (I even can Extirpate his Tropicals while he has NO other G manasource) . :/ Well timelimit beats me (again).

Match 4: Faeries
==================

G1 I just win due to my opponent having a wrong decklist when our decks are checked by a judge.

G2 I just loose to a perfect hand stacked with counters, Faeries that counter, Back to Basics (MAIN!) and more Faeries. Mistbind Clique surely isnt a staple in Faeries but against a deck full of Sorceries it is quite amazing. I board 3 Grips and 3 Extirpates ... Hymn and GY dependant Winoption have to go like before ... hm always the same plan. I take notes to think about this being really the right choice later on.

G3 drags on and on. I screw him on black and have one Engineered Plague, he screws me with BtB, I misplay one dredge forgetting to activate top and loose one Krosan Grip, he twice takes it with Vendilion Clique so the games drags on slowly. At least he doesn't seem to play GY hate. Finally I find Gigapede. He either counters it or Stifles the trigger whenever I try to get it online. Since I have to assemble untapped lands this takes more than one turn with BtB in play. BTW I didnt have Moxes anymore because I had to nuke his CB with Deed. Finally, after ages, Gigapede sticks and goes all the way. Later on my opponent tells me that he simply forgot to board Grips and Engineered plague just didn't let him play any of his creatures. No he didn't play Tombstalker.

So I am Top 4.

Match 5: Goyfsligh
==================

Julian, which I have to play quite often on tourneys and against whome I never seem to be able to win. Quite contrary to what Brot_With_Kruste said in his post this matchup is just bad. Julian knows my deck and before we start he claims he knows hows to play against it.

Game 1 my life points go 17/14/11/9/6/5/3/5 .... so he does what he can do best: Burn to my head. I play what I can do best: Discard at random, Destroy his lands and he has a lot of them. I can beat him to 8 with a Factory while I am at 3 and find Syphon life while he doesnt find another land. Syphon Life goes for the win. That card he didn't expect ;)

I board in Ghostly Prison because I do not know what to expect. Myself I played Winter Orb when playing Goyflsligh but that is rather a rare choice I thought. Well, Well, ... i should trust intuition more.

Game 2 Julian shows me how lucky I was G1. I am just burned out of life without any relevant plays from my side except getting rid off that Winter Orb.

Game 3 Julian has the Turn 3 Kill. T1: Land, Burn 3, T2: Land, Burn 3 and 3 with me fetching going to 10. T3 Land, Goblin Guide, attack, Fireblast, PoP => Me dead. A very good matchup ... NOT! Maybe I should think of Solitary Confinement as a special card :D for the R mage.

Pros:
Nice ppl, nice conversation
got a few boosters

Cons:
I really need to play the deck more often to play faster
I need a better sideboard plan especially against U decks. There is too much I want in and not enough I want to take out.

[FoolofaTook]

Thanks for the report. I think Pernicious Deed is much worse in this deck than Engineered Explosives. EE does not mess with your moxes or worms and it is a turn faster to go off in most situations.

I like the Mishra's in the deck although I don't like only 3 cycle lands. That's such a big part of the LftL combo, I think I would not go below 5 and 6 is probably the safe number.

When you drew Hymn to Tourach did you want it most of the time or did it sit in your hand?

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

Hi,

thanks for your report. I have to say that I don't really like your list, especially your manabase. I would never play without the playset of Wasteland in this deck, they are too good. Also the low count of Cycling-lands, as FoolofaTook stated before, will get you into trouble. I've tested a version with five insted of six Cycling-lands and it didn't ran smooth enough, so I played the 6th again. But what really botheres me are the two Mishra's Factory. I've tested them many times, as a 2-off and a 1-off, and in both scenarios it wasn't good. Especially cutting a Fetchland or Cycling-land for it is really risky.
Urborg might be personal preferance, but I don't like that card.

To the main: At the first gaze I'm seeing that you are playing Hymn to Tourach. It replaced one Innocent Blood, one Life from the Loam and one Mox Diamond. So your manacurve is getting a bit higher, but I think it's still okay. Cutting one Innocent Blood is debatable, but cutting one Life from the Loam without any Tutor-effects is bad. You don't want to cast it as fast as possible, but I'm always happy to have it on my hand. Why you have cutted the Mox Diamond is clear for me: It's bad with Pernicious Deed. That's and mostly it's one turn slower than EE are the reasons why I don't play it anymore, because I really love to keep my Moxen.

Cutting one Raven's Crime for one Syphon Life is acceptable, I think.

To the report: It confused me that you were boarding out the winconditions. I would rather board out one Mox Diamond and one Sensei's Divining Top, especially against fast decks, but I would never touch the wincons :).

[Nekrataal]

Hi,

thanks for your report. I have to say that I don't really like your list, especially your manabase. I would never play without the playset of Wasteland in this deck, they are too good. Also the low count of Cycling-lands, as FoolofaTook stated before, will get you into trouble. I've tested a version with five insted of six Cycling-lands and it didn't ran smooth enough, so I played the 6th again. But what really botheres me are the two Mishra's Factory. I've tested them many times, as a 2-off and a 1-off, and in both scenarios it wasn't good. Especially cutting a Fetchland or Cycling-land for it is really risky.
Urborg might be personal preferance, but I don't like that card.

To the main: At the first gaze I'm seeing that you are playing Hymn to Tourach. It replaced one Innocent Blood, one Life from the Loam and one Mox Diamond. So your manacurve is getting a bit higher, but I think it's still okay. Cutting one Innocent Blood is debatable, but cutting one Life from the Loam without any Tutor-effects is bad. You don't want to cast it as fast as possible, but I'm always happy to have it on my hand. Why you have cutted the Mox Diamond is clear for me: It's bad with Pernicious Deed. That's and mostly it's one turn slower than EE are the reasons why I don't play it anymore, because I really love to keep my Moxen.

Cutting one Raven's Crime for one Syphon Life is acceptable, I think.

To the report: It confused me that you were boarding out the winconditions. I would rather board out one Mox Diamond and one Sensei's Divining Top, especially against fast decks, but I would never touch the wincons :).


Thanks for your feedback. it is highly appreciated Brot .. and Foolofa .. .

Regarding the Hymn: Well, they didn't do much except win me the first Goyfsligh and Canadian Thresh matchup ;) I boarded them out G2 most of the time because on the draw they are 1 turn to late imho. They are really good on your opening hand when you start but crap later on since you either have to care about something else your opponent has already on the board or you don't care about discard since your LD already shows effect. Yeah, it replaced one Innocent Blood, one Life from the Loam and one Mox Diamond. :D

Yeah I had to put in the Factories somehow ;) They were sometimes good as a blocker and in some games they just did some 10 damage on their own. Also the diversify wincondition. At least one opponent knowing the deck had Extirpates lurking in his deck for Gigapede. Factories again are the reason to play Urborg. During the tourney I liked them a lot to smooth out my black mana with Factories and a basic forest. Only against Faries they were pretty bad because they fix my opponents mana as well.

Regarding the cycling lands and Loam you are probably right. The idea behind it after testing was to hold off the opponent long enough to get the engines still up and running in time. Usually that seemed to work in my games since they were long attrition wars. But I also felt that there are not enough cycling lands although 3 Loams where kinda OK. I thought about 1 Entomb instead for the 4th Loam but since you considered it rather bad I stuck with the 3 Loams. Anyway ... I will think about it for the next tourney.

Deed vs EE: Slowly but surely I come to realize that EE maybe better except Tribal matchups. Often I just wanted to nuke CB, BtB or a particular permanent with CC 1,2 or 3. As a sideeffect I also lost something that I eventually didn't have to with EE. Yeah and keeping Mox is good especially if you have to play against BtB so often.

Boarding: Well I boarded out Wincondition that were to GY dependant to have no dead cards G2. This probably was a mistake at least for Worm harvest since there is always the chance that I can play around, avoid, never see or grip the hate cards. ON the other hand I play more Winconditions than the average build so it is maybe OK to board some out. SDT I become to love in this deck so I will never ever SB it again :D You are probably right about the Mox Diamond. Maybe dependant if you are on the draw or on the play. But against fast decks the extra mana could also matter because a lot of strong aggro hate is in the 3cc slot (Engineered plague, Prison). I play nothing in my sideboard for 1 or 2cc that actually matters and could be boarded. It also depends if you need the Mox to fix your manabase e.g. when playing Wasteland decks. But I am grateful for all suggestions, because I definitely have to think about boarding in more detail for the next time :D

So what changes can I do ....

// Lands
4 [ON] Barren Moor
1 [OD] Cabal Pit
2 [A] Scrubland
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [EVG] Tranquil Thicket
1 [ALA] Forest (3)
2 [BD] Swamp (1)
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
3 [b] Bayou

// Creatures
1 [ON] Gigapede

// Spells
1 [EVE] Raven's Crime
3 [AP] Engineered Explosives
4 [A] Sinkhole
4 [AP] Vindicate
1 [EVE] Worm Harvest
1 [EVE] Syphon Life
4 [OD] Innocent Blood (+1)
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [SH] Mox Diamond (+1)
4 [TSP] Smallpox
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam
2 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
1 Entomb (try one out instead of the fourth Loam)

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate (-1)
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [CHK] Ghostly Prison (didnt do much and I didn't play Dredge)
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt (see above)
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip (+1)

Maybe in these 5 slots I really try:

1 Loam and 4 Solitary Confinement ... but maybe this is not fast enough to be assembled against Aggro :/

[leander?]

@B.O.K./Trisomy players/Thread, I'm really liking the deck BOK came up with as it essentially looks like a better version of Loam-Pox, wich is a deck that I used to play a lot. The problem is that I simply fail to understand the landcount, apparently, most of you guys are happy with. How on earth is it possible to play 24 lands, of wich 11 aren't even really capable of making mana properly, in a control deck that is happy to topdeck lands (retrace and utility lands), and if it isn't can prevent to (Top, with or without dredge)?
I've got quite a decent amount of experience with Aggro Loam and I'm very happy to play 26 lands (with 12 utility lands). And Aggro Loam is an aggro-control deck.

Do you really feel that your manabases are stable with 24 lands?

[dorsch]

All you need to get this deck working are 3 mana sources. (at best 1 green, 1 white and 2 black) Each additional land you draw at this point is dead. Right now you want to draw as much destruction spells as possible. As soon as you hit Loam you will get enough land drops anyway, but early in the game you don't need more than 3.

P.S. I am definately not sure whether 24 is the right number, all I say is, it feels fine and seems plausible.

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

All you need to get this deck working are 3 mana sources. (at best 1 green, 1 white and 2 black) Each additional land you draw at this point is dead. Right now you want to draw as much destruction spells as possible. As soon as you hit Loam you will get enough land drops anyway, but early in the game you don't need more than 3.

P.S. I am definately not sure whether 24 is the right number, all I say is, it feels fine and seems plausible.

This.

I the early-game you aren't casting Life from the Loam very often. Destroying the board is much better and that goes well with three lands. If the haven't got any or just one land you can build up your game and your manabase quite well. The Life from the Loam-action normally takes place in your mid-game (which is in moste cases the early-game of the opponent :P).



@B.O.K./Trisomy players/Thread, I'm really liking the deck BOK came up with as it essentially looks like a better version of Loam-Pox, wich is a deck that I used to play a lot.

Thanks :).

[Wargoos]

Deck looks good so far.
I just realized that this is the deck I lost against with Tempo Thresh at the 82 Big Legacy in Dülmen some time back.
I played against it on one of the mid tables (thank you f*kin gobs ...) and I never had a chance against it.
At times where Canadian Threshold and zoo reigns this seems like a valid deckchoice.
Nicely done, Herr Brot!

[FoolofaTook]

This.

I the early-game you aren't casting Life from the Loam very often. Destroying the board is much better and that goes well with three lands. If the haven't got any or just one land you can build up your game and your manabase quite well. The Life from the Loam-action normally takes place in your mid-game (which is in moste cases the early-game of the opponent :P).




Thanks :).

I have gotten really fond of seeing 3 lands, Mox Diamond and Life from the Loam in my opening hand. I love playing a fetchland, playing Mox Diamond (discarding a dual or basic land), immediately casting LftL to get back the 2 lands in hand, and then using a cycle land during upkeep to get back LfTL. Then you drop the second land and Smallpox or Sinkhole and the game is over if they do not have a counter. Decks with counters can hold out a bit longer but they cannot handle the difference in resources and cards for long.

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

I have gotten really fond of seeing 3 lands, Mox Diamond and Life from the Loam in my opening hand. I love playing a fetchland, playing Mox Diamond (discarding a dual or basic land), immediately casting LftL to get back the 2 lands in hand, and then using a cycle land during upkeep to get back LfTL. Then you drop the second land and Smallpox or Sinkhole and the game is over if they do not have a counter. Decks with counters can hold out a bit longer but they cannot handle the difference in resources and cards for long.

Yeah, if you have got a hand with Mox, Land, Land, Life and you are on the play, I would do it for sure. Even if you are on the draw and haven't got any LD-spells or just a Smallpox which isn't good in this situation, I'd do it. You have to look which play is better. But in most cases destroying the land is better ;). I like to control the board first, if it is possible and then build up my game.

[FoolofaTook]

Yeah, if you have got a hand with Mox, Land, Land, Life and you are on the play, I would do it for sure. Even if you are on the draw and haven't got any LD-spells or just a Smallpox which isn't good in this situation, I'd do it. You have to look which play is better. But in most cases destroying the land is better ;). I like to control the board first, if it is possible and then build up my game.

Yeah it's better to control the board as quickly as possible. I prefer to get the LftL going faster when I have a cycle land in hand. Against blue where you might well lose a LD spell to Daze or Spell Snare it's just really nice to have the draw engine early, because it will find you a wasteland and then they are in trouble. I really like the Mox Diamond/Wasteland synergy on the play.

[MrShine]

Hi all,

I have been following this thread since its inception, and I'm becoming more and more interested in trying the deck out. The only thing holding me back, though, is a budgetary concern; I have neither Mox Diamonds nor Sinkholes.

Is it foolish to even try playing this deck without the aforementioned cards? What (if any) replacements would you suggest?

[dorsch]

First of all there is no replacement for sinkhole.
No lenddestruction with cmc 3 can replace sinkhole, so you might play hymn to Tourach, thoughtseize or more creature removal instead.
There is also no card which might replace Mox diamond. Maybe play some more Lands instead?
The result will be a significant worse deck with a different game plan.

[FoolofaTook]

Possible (inferior) replacement effects for Mox Diamond:

Chrome Mox - you'll run out of gas too quickly, and you really want to put land in the graveyard not remove a spell from play.

Exploration - will give you some tempo early on but nothing like what you get out of Mox Diamond. Will give you some very interesting midgame options if you get it down and Life from the Loam running.

Root Maze - gives you a relevant 1-drop. Does not get you a turn 1 Sinkhole on the draw though or a turn 2 Vindicate. Quite the opposite in fact.

Dark Ritual, Lotus Petal - this isn't that kind of deck. It would take a page to fully explain why though and so I'll just stick to the last sentence.

Possible (inferior) replacement effects for Sinkhole:

As dorsch said, there really is nothing that is going to do the job that Sinkhole does. You have to be able to start killing land, and especially basic land, as soon as possible. Waiting a turn in Legacy today means dying to Zoo 75% of the time.

[MrShine]

Yeah, I didn't think there was much hope :P Perhaps I'll just borrow the cards instead...

[Sevryn]

Just as an aside, can you please change the name of the deck? "Trisomy 21" is not at all descriptive, especially since Spellweaver Helix isn't even in the deck at this point. "B.g.w Loam Control" is good, so is "Loam Pox" and "Dirt" (a previous poster mentioned this name). Really anything would be better.

[jazzykat]

Just as an aside, can you please change the name of the deck? "Trisomy 21" is not at all descriptive, especially since Spellweaver Helix isn't even in the deck at this point. "B.g.w Loam Control" is good, so is "Loam Pox" and "Dirt" (a previous poster mentioned this name). Really anything would be better.

I miss cool names so if you decide to change the name keep the Trisomy in parentheses.

[FoolofaTook]

Just as an aside, can you please change the name of the deck? "Trisomy 21" is not at all descriptive, especially since Spellweaver Helix isn't even in the deck at this point. "B.g.w Loam Control" is good, so is "Loam Pox" and "Dirt" (a previous poster mentioned this name). Really anything would be better.

I figured Trisomy 21 was because of the way the deck retarded the opposition's progress. It actually is VERY descriptive, however I can see where it would offend people and maybe changing it is wise for that reason.

Half of the time the opponent is sitting around doing nothing by turn 4 and won't be for the rest of the game.

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

I figured Trisomy 21 was because of the way the deck retarded the opposition's progress. It actually is VERY descriptive, however I can see where it would offend people and maybe changing it is wise for that reason.

Half of the time the opponent is sitting around doing nothing by turn 4 and won't be for the rest of the game.


That's exactly what the deck does and that's why I don't want to change the name. Sure, the name was first used because of the Helix, but it turned out that the name does fit to the deck without that card as well :).

I've got two new Top 8's the deck made, but I don't know the exact place nor the exact number of people that attended at the tournaments. The first Top 8 was at a GPT in Utrecht, Netherlands with 60+ people and the second was at a GPT in Düsseldorf, Germany with 37 people ( http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31748 ). At the last tournament he is on the 4th place, but I think the places aren't right because the 8th place has won Byes for the GP Madrid too. If I get more information, I'll inform you.

€:// The 8th (Ichorid) and the Trisomy-player splitted in the finals, I heard.

[leander?]

I've got two new Top 8's the deck made, but I don't know the exact place nor the exact number of people that attended at the tournaments. The first Top 8 was at a GPT in Utrecht, Netherlands with 60+ people
I think you mean the GPT Eindhoven with 65 players. A Trisomy player lost the QF's there with this list:


4 verdant catacombs
1 gigapede
1 worm harvest
2 swords to plowshares
3 innocent blood
4 smallpox
4 sinkholes
4 vindicate
1 raven's crime
2 entomb
4 life from the loam
3 engineered explosives
3 sensei's divining top
4 mox diamond
4 wasteland
1 bloodstained mire
4 barren moor
2 tranquil thicket
1 cabal pit
3 bayou
2 scrubland
2 swamp
1 forest

sideboard
3 engineered plague
3 ravanous trap
2 coffin purge
4 duress
3 sadistic sacrament

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

I think you mean the GPT Eindhoven with 65 players. A Trisomy player lost the QF's there with this list:


Oh, sorry. Of course I meant Eindhoven. Thanks for the decklist. I think he lost to Combo, am I right?

[leander?]

That is correct. He lost to ANT.

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

After I discussed the SB with one of my teammate, I realized that you have to accept the bad combo-MU because you can't fight it with 4 Duress and 3 Sacrament. I'd rather hate Ichorid. The Ichorid-hate is also good against other decks. Here is my recent SB:


3 Coffin Purge
4 Ravenous Trap
2 Extirpate
3 Engineered Plague
3 Pithing Needle

What do you think?

[Romanus]

Built this deck last night. Wow, exactly what I have always wanted to play. Destructive control is so much fun :cool:


Might be a total noob question but trap over Leyline?

[dorsch]

In best case scenario you drop Leyline turn 0 versus dredge. Since you have almost no clock at all, Dredge will play chain of vapor or ray of relevation at end of turn and will go nuts with their perfect sculpted hand, afterwards.

Ravenous Trap hits them unsuspected at the right moment during their turn and instantly removes the whole graveyard.
On the other Hand, Ravenous Trap can be discarded via Therapy or Unmask, it also can't handle reanimator most of the time.

Coffin Purge and Extirpate are nuts, but maybe, if you wish additional grave-hate, Tormods Crypt is better than the trap?

Edit:


After I discussed the SB with one of my teammate, I realized that you have to accept the bad combo-MU because you can't fight it with 4 Duress and 3 Sacrament. I'd rather hate Ichorid. The Ichorid-hate is also good against other decks. Here is my recent SB:


3 Coffin Purge
4 Ravenous Trap
2 Extirpate
3 Engineered Plague
3 Pithing Needle

What do you think?

I like your graveyard-package. As i said above, do you think Tormod's Crypt is worse that Ravaneous Trap? Why?

I do not like Engineered Plague. The first one hardly does anything versus tribal decks, only a second plague will seal the game. Even though you might board them versus dredge, i am testing 2-3 Damnation or Pernicious Deed in my sideboard.

What is pithing Needle for? Allmost all situations i can imagine i would prefer Krosan Grip. I know you wrote you want to hate Aether Vial, but naming Sensei's Divining Top versus Counterbalance is lame and does not save from random flips. Please share your thoughts.

[nodahero]

I just piloted this list to a second place finish tonight in a 22 man tourney. Overall the deck seemed to play fairly well and efficently. I even managed to beat Belcher (with alot of luck game 1) and I managed to Vindicate his Belcher game 2 because he needed to untap to kill me. He was one mana short.

I think the deck is a very solid contender overall. The one problem I seemed to have was the inability to recover from topdeck mode without Loam. While it only happened once it was brutally painful when it did... Speaking of which what would everyone say about the follwoing opening seven on the draw: 2 Waste, 2 Diamond, Vindicate, and Innocent blood? The game was against Monoblack critter kill... A large majority of its spells didn't happen till turn 3 although he did run Hymm and Sinkhole.

[Joon]

Another big advantage of the trap is that you can hide it with Top, so no Therapy and no Unmask will ever get it.

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

I just piloted this list to a second place finish tonight in a 22 man tourney. Overall the deck seemed to play fairly well and efficently. I even managed to beat Belcher (with alot of luck game 1) and I managed to Vindicate his Belcher game 2 because he needed to untap to kill me. He was one mana short.


Congratulations to the finish. Nice to see someone played the deck :).




Speaking of which what would everyone say about the follwoing opening seven on the draw: 2 Waste, 2 Diamond, Vindicate, and Innocent blood? The game was against Monoblack critter kill... A large majority of its spells didn't happen till turn 3 although he did run Hymm and Sinkhole.

I would keep it. No risk, no fun ;).



Another big advantage of the trap is that you can hide it with Top, so no Therapy and no Unmask will ever get it.

That's right. I really like the Trap.


So, I played the deck yesterday in the Iserlohn GPT with 97 people. I went 4-3-0, but I'm really satisfied with the deck. Here's my little report, if you read it, you will know why I'm happy with it:

Round 1 vs. Elves Combo:
G1: He started with Forest, Llanowar Elves. I play Mox, Land, Smallpox. From this point he never recovers.
G2: He has got more Elves than I've got removal. The beatdown kills me.
G3: I kept an hand with 2 Explosives, 2 Vindicates, 1 spot removal and 2 lands. Until turn 6 I don't see a third land and I lost to 25 hasty Elves. If I had drawn the third land, I think I would have won.
1-2
0-1-0

Round 2 vs. Goyf Sligh:
G1: He quickly beats me down to 4 and Price of Progress gave me the rest.
G2: I've got the total control. It's too much removal for him.
G3: I kept an hand with 5 lands, one Sinkhole and one Top. In this game I drew three Vindicates. He lost.
2-1
1-1-0

Round 3 vs. Next Level Storm:
G1: Combo, I'm dead.
G2: See above.
0-2
1-2-0

Round 4 vs. Merfolk:
G1: He was too fast for me and had too many lands.
G2: I've got too much hate for him. Gigapede beats him to death.
G3: He started with first turn Aether Vial. I play land, Explosives, go. He puts a counter on the Vial and passed the turn. I drop a land and activate the Explosives. In response he vialed in a Cursecatcher which unfortunately dies to EE. Same goes for the Vial. After this mistake of him I attacked his manabase. He scoops.
2-1
2-2-0

Round 5 vs. Belcher:
G1: He begins with 16 token. Great.
G2: I kept an hand with Loam, Mox, 2 lands, Raven's Crime. After he had no handcards he scoops.
G3: Belcher for XX damage.
1-2
2-3-0

Great, I totally prepared for Dredge, but it's so unlucky to play against three combo-decks.

Round 6 vs. Bant:
G1: He get's CB + Top within the first two turns. A Vindicate on the Balance was countered by it, but a few turns later a Gigapede enters the battlefield. He drops a 4/5 Goyf, but my Gigapede-blockteam is stronger. A turn later Noble Hierarch enters battlefield on his side, but the Goyf is still too small for my Pede. He attacked with his Hierarch and it was thrown in a threshed Cabal Pit by me. It's my turn and I attack with Gigapede, the Goyf blocks. Recurring 5 mana removal, great. The next turn I returned my Pede to my hand, found an EE, tap four of my lands for BBGG and cast an Explosives for two counters with converted manacost four. „And this works?“, he asked. „Sure.“, I said. He looked sad :D. I blew up his Counterbalance knowing that he has got a Counterbalance on the top. I played Live grabbed a few lands and wasted one of his. He has only got three lands left. In his turn he dropped a CB. He asked me how I will win this game with such a board position. I know how. I drew a Sinkhole and destroyed a land of him and dropped Gigapede. The whole time I have got two Swords in my hand and I know exactly what I want to do with them. The Gigapede attacked him twice, he went to 1. He dropped Goyf and hasn't got any mana left. So I sworded it. He responded by tapping the Top. I responded by sword it again. The Goyf is removed, he gains 6 life and the Gigapede ended the game within two turns.
This game was about 30 minutes long. He just don't wanted to die :D.
G2: He started with Plains, Top. I dropped a land and played a Needle. „Is that okay for you“, I asked. He thinked. „Yes“, he replied. „Sensei's Diving Top“. „Your's will not work either, right?“. „Right“. Sidenote: I boarded mine out^^.
He dropped a land and passed the turn. I played a land and passed. He played a land and Pridemage with one mana left. EOT I tried to sword his Pridemage... and succeeded oO. Okay, better for me. After that I totally bombed up his manabase and Gigapede ends the game.
After the game he showed me how he boarded:
- X Daze (!) (They are good against landdestruction, why he boarded them out?)
- X Spell Snare
- 4 Goyf
+ X Path to Exile (!)
+ X Relic
+ 4 Meddling Mage
I asked him why he boarded in the Pathes. He answered that he wanted to sword the Gigapede... „Okay, I can live with that. He has got shroud“, I said. „Oh“. Yeah, oh :).
2-0
3-3-0

Round 7 vs. Zoo:
G1: He started with land, Kird Ape. I had a land, Mox, Smallpox start. Smallpox > one-land-hand. He scooped after he had no handcards because of Raven's Crime.
G2: Every land an creatures dies to my removal. Gigapede entered the battlefield. I've got two Wastelands and a threshed Cabal Pit out with Life from the Loam in my graveyard. He is on 18, so I need three turns to win. He drew a land, dropped it and played a creature. I dredged my Life, wasted his land and threw his creature into the Pit. I played a Life and dropped Wasteland, Cabal Pit is on my hand. Gigapede attacked for 6, he is on 12. Next turn he drew a second land, dropped it and played a guy. I dredged the Life, wasted his land, pitted his creatures, attacked for 6. He is on 6. He drew a third land, dropped it, played a guy. I dredged Life, wasted his land, pitted his creature and attacked with Pede for the win. Oh my got, I just totally wrecked him without even play a destruction-spell. Nice :).
After the match he told me that he totally hate my deck and that he played it the second time today. He lost the first one too.
2-0
4-3-0

I'm totally pleased with the result. I won all non-combo-matches which is superb. I think I have to make up my mind to my SB. I should really run combo-hate.

There were two other Trisomy-decks at this tournament. One went 4-1-2 because he thought too much in some situations and one went 4-3-0. He had to play against the Next Level Storm- and Belcher-guy I played before and lost.


On the same day the Top 8 of the leagues were played out. In the Legacy Top 8 there were two players that played Trisomy. One that hasn't got any experience with the deck and one that just played one tournament with it, so he hasn't got too much experience either. The guy without the experience lost in the first round, but the other won the Top 8. He defeated Ad Nauseam Storm 2-1 (it was a little bit lucky, yeah^^), Merfolk 2-1 and ProBant 2-0 in the finals.

The deck can really win any non-combo-matchup. And for the combo-MU here is my SB I'll test:

4 Duress
3 Raven's Crime
3 Ravenous Trap
2 Coffin Purge
3 Slots Free

I don't know what to play in the three free slots. Maybe one Purge, one Trap and one random Thoughtseize. Or one Purge and two Seizes.

What do you guys think?

[dorsch]

Congratulations on your wins, too bad you faced so much combo. Though the merfolk and the bant player don't seem like tough opponents, based on the mistakes you listed.

Could you please explain why you prefer Pithing Needles to Krosan Grip?

For your combo-sb:
You should switch some of the Graveyard hate for Extirpate
- Extirpate is great graveyard hate versus Reanimator and Life from the Loam and still good vs Dredge
- With so much discard, Extirpate might remove a card in their hand, if they hold two copies of an extirpate-worth card.
- Duress on Tendrils followed by Extirpate means gg (still great to permanently remove any important card)
- Extirpate shuffles after Mystical Tutor

Edit: What sb did you use? Any fundamental changes maindeck?

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

Congratulations on your wins, too bad you faced so much combo. Though the merfolk and the bant player don't seem like tough opponents, based on the mistakes you listed.

Could you please explain why you prefer Pithing Needles to Krosan Grip?

For your combo-sb:
You should switch some of the Graveyard hate for Extirpate
- Extirpate is great graveyard hate versus Reanimator and Life from the Loam and still good vs Dredge
- With so much discard, Extirpate might remove an additional card in their hand
- Duress on Tendrils followed by Extirpate means gg (or other important-cards)
- Extirpate shuffles after Mystical Tutor

Oh yeah, of course I'll explain it. The reason is, that you can shut down Aether Vial early and that Krosan Grip costs three. I haven't tested the Grip before, but I think, if I play it, that the Needle does a better job. Maybe I'll test it, but I think we don't need any ony them. The bad matchups are Combo and Dredge, the other one you can win quite well.

Extirpate is a good card that effects the Combo and Dredge-MU. I thought of it too, it's also good against Thresh by removing their Tropical Island ;). So, the SB looks like this:

4 Duress
3 Raven's Crime
3 Ravenous Trap
2 Coffin Purge
3 Extirpate

[MrShine]

I don't know if you've tested it or not, but Engineered Plague might be good; while you already have a good matchup against merfolk (what about goblins?) its obviously great vs tribal. It could help in the Belcher matchup and maybe even Ichorid; naming goblins against belcher is a serious impediment, and when combined with needles for belcher gives you some good hate (not to mention discard aswell). Against Ichorid you could name zombies or Horror if your graveyard hate doesn't quite work, and im not sure what kind of storm you are facing but if they have an Empty the Warrens plan Plague can be useful here too.

VS ETW and dredged zombies, though, EE @ zero is also pretty good but having redundant hate thats good in tribal matches too could be useful. Just a thought.

Why no Pithing Needle?

EDIT: Extripate seems like a great complement to the land destruction, removing non-basics for good is always awesome :D. Krosan Grip seems like it has merits (you can always play it T2 with moxen, as with plague).

Why so much GY hate? 8 pieces seems like alot

[dorsch]

I think Krosan Grip is better versus Survival (pridemage) and Counterbalance (Force and still gets random flips after shutting down top and you have to side out tops).
Are there any cards you will board Needle against which Krosan Grip will be worse, except Aether vial?

What do you think about Bojuka Bog? Maybe one copy maindeck? I don't think it should be added in the sideboard.


Bojuka Bog
Land (Common)
~ETB tapped
T:add B
When ~ ETB remove all cards in target players graveyard from the game.

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

I don't know if you've tested it or not, but Engineered Plague might be good; while you already have a good matchup against merfolk (what about goblins?) its obviously great vs tribal. It could help in the Belcher matchup and maybe even Ichorid; naming goblins against belcher is a serious impediment, and when combined with needles for belcher gives you some good hate (not to mention discard aswell). Against Ichorid you could name zombies or Horror if your graveyard hate doesn't quite work, and im not sure what kind of storm you are facing but if they have an Empty the Warrens plan Plague can be useful here too.

VS ETW and dredged zombies, though, EE @ zero is also pretty good but having redundant hate thats good in tribal matches too could be useful. Just a thought.

Why no Pithing Needle?

EDIT: Extripate seems like a great complement to the land destruction, removing non-basics for good is always awesome :D. Krosan Grip seems like it has merits (you can always play it T2 with moxen, as with plague).

Why so much GY hate? 8 pieces seems like alot

Actually I played the Plague every tournament now and I realized that I don't really need it. Sure, it's great, but I think you need the SB-space for other matchups. If you have got two in play, they are good, but otherwise they aren't that good.

Why so much GY-hate? I want to win against Dredge! :D



Edit: What sb did you use? Any fundamental changes maindeck?

MD:
// Lands
1 Cabal Pit
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Swamp
4 Wasteland
2 Scrubland
4 Barren Moor
1 Forest

// Creatures
1 Gigapede

// Spells
3 Innocent Blood
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Mox Diamond
1 Worm Harvest
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Vindicate
4 Life from the Loam
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Raven's Crime
1 Entomb

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 4 Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 Zuran Orb
SB: 3 Coffin Purge
SB: 1 The Tabernacle of the ...
SB: 2 Pithing Needle

The SB was just Ichorid as you can the. The plan was not to play against Combo... Good plan, isn't it? xD



I think Krosan Grip is better versus Survival (pridemage) and Counterbalance (Force and still gets random flips after shutting down top and you have to side out tops).
Are there any cards you will board Needle against which Krosan Grip will be worse, except Aether vial?

What do you think about Bojuka Bog? Maybe one copy maindeck? I don't think it should be added in the sideboard.


Bojuka Bog
Land (Common)
~ETB tapped
T:add B
When ~ ETB remove all cards in target players graveyard from the game.

I think you are right on the Grip. But I've lost to more Aether Vials than Survival and Counterbalance. They both need mana :D. Maybe I'll test the Grip a bit.

The land is good. I thought about one copy MD and one SB, but the problem is, what would you cut at the MD?

[leander?]

What about Hide/Seek vs storm?

[dorsch]

Since we do not run red mana (besides Mox) I would prefer Sadistic Sacrament. There are many combo decks which use more than 1 win condition.
Brot Ohne Kruste used to have some copies (Sadistic Sacrament) in his sideboard, but it seems like now he prefers other combo hate.

[leander?]

Over here (Netherlands/Flanders) literally none of the better storm (ANT) players play more kills than 1 Tendrils (apart from SB EtW, but EE should deal with that).

@BOK, in your primer you said that the German version was much larger. Do you have a link? Becouse I'm interested in reading it.

Also, what kind of SB cards would you guys reccomend for this metagame:

ANT
Merfolk
The Rock
Goblins
Eva Green
Countertop
Domain Zoo

Maybe something along the lines of:

4 Hide/Seek
3 Duress
2 StP/I-Blood
2 Needle
2 Z-Orb
2 P-Deed

Also, whats up with your nick? Imo crusts are about the best part of bread..

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

Since we do not run red mana (besides Mox) I would prefer Sadistic Sacrament. There are many combo decks which use more than 1 win condition.
Brot Ohne Kruste used to have some copies (Sadistic Sacrament) in his sideboard, but it seems like now he prefers other combo hate.

I used to run the Sacraments, yeah. The problem is that it is a bit too slow. Getting 3 mana even on the play is hard against combo because you could be dead within the first two turns. Another point why Sacrament isn't that good is that you can't exile cards from the opponents hand. If he has got the wincondition on his hand, you are just dead.
I haven't tried Raven's Crime yet, but I think they are better. They are coming first turn for at least one, it's not a big deal, if they duress them (which is really a problem with Sacrament) and they are getting stronger by having the Loam. I made the experience that losing one handcard could be very hard for combo that's why I think the Crime is better than the Sacrament.




@BOK, in your primer you said that the German version was much larger. Do you have a link? Becouse I'm interested in reading it.

Here it is:
http://www.magicuniverse.de/html/kolumnen.php?id=1431
The combo-MU, especially the postboard-MU, wasn't tested often at that time. Same goes for the Landstill-MU, but I think the numbers could be okay. To write down the percentage-description was kinda bad, but it was my very first primer that was longer than five pages in Word (I think it was about ten pages long). I should have left them out, even if they are pretty accurate I think (except the MUs named before).




Also, what kind of SB cards would you guys reccomend for this metagame:

ANT (Duress, Raven's Crime)
Merfolk (Needle and maybe Plague)
The Rock (nothing)
Goblins (Needle and maybe Plague. In this MU even more than in the Merfolk-MU)
Eva Green (nothing)
Countertop (maybe Needle or, as dorsch stated, Grip)
Domain Zoo (maybe Zuran Orb)

Maybe something along the lines of:

4 Hide/Seek (I don't really like it. Here in Germany there are many lists with two Tendrils)
3 Duress
2 StP/I-Blood (could be okay, but I think you really want to have the SB-space)
2 Needle
2 Z-Orb (Zuran Orbs were added when the deck played three Helices, Maelstrom Pulse and three more Crimes. Now you have got more removal, so I don't think you'll need it. At the tournament it was never used by me even I had it in play)
2 P-Deed (I'd rather add the last Explosives)

With this SB you want to cover all MUs, right? You really don't neede to push positive MUs for us again, I think, so Zuran Orb and the Slots of Swords/Blood and Deed (which is too slow) are free. Furthermore I'm not really convinced by the Hide/Seek and the fact that you are loosing to Dredge pretty hard...




Also, whats up with your nick? Imo crusts are about the best part of bread..

Sure they are. It's just a stupid name I really like. I've got it since four years now, I suppose and I think it's kinda funny :).



Built this deck last night. Wow, exactly what I have always wanted to play. Destructive control is so much fun :cool:


Hi,

I haven't totally forgot you. Sorry for that. Nice to hear that you like that deck :). Have you tested it a bit? How were your results?

[leander?]

Thanks for the reply. I'll take a look at the German primer later.
As for the SB, Dredge isn't really played over here, but ANT with only one kill is. So this is what I'm concidering:

3 Needle
3 Plague (in my limited testings VS Merfolk it was kinda underwhelming against all those lords, but I'll give him another opportunity to prove itself)
1 Raven's Crime
4 Duress
4 Hide/Seek

Also, could you tell a bit more about your choice of replacing one Entomb with a Loam? 'Couse I don't really see the point of replacing a tutor (with such a low cmc) with a tutortarget.

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

Thanks for the reply. I'll take a look at the German primer later.
As for the SB, Dredge isn't really played over here, but ANT with only one kill is. So this is what I'm concidering:

3 Needle
3 Plague (in my limited testings VS Merfolk it was kinda underwhelming against all those lords, but I'll give him another opportunity to prove itself)
1 Raven's Crime
4 Duress
4 Hide/Seek

Also, could you tell a bit more about your choice of replacing one Entomb with a Loam? 'Couse I don't really see the point of replacing a tutor (with such a low cmc) with a tutortarget.

Yeah, Plague is underwhelming against Lords... Against Goblins it's okay, but not more, that's why I'm testing a SB without it.

I replaced a Loam with an Entomb for testings, but it showed that you really want to have the 4th Loam, so on the tournament I just ran an random Entomb in one Raven's Crime-slot which was good.

[Romanus]

I haven't totally forgot you. Sorry for that. Nice to hear that you like that deck :). Have you tested it a bit? How were your results?


Been testing against aggro mostly. Zoo, Merfolk, Goblins, burn are what I have to play against on a very regular basis. Too bad, because I need the practice vs dredge and ANT. Summary of the games, friendly testing with my girlfriend and two friends.

Zoo is oddly favorable. When they see the wastes and sinkholes they always start fetching basics and smallpox/sinkhole take care of them just as easily. My Zoo player said that Thoctar was completely useless and always a dead draw G1. I would do my best to keep them off red because the burn to the face would hurt as I searched for a finisher. I'd say I won 75% of the games pre board, and 60% post. Relic was always a threat, but explosives did a fair job of keeping it at bay.

Goblins was a harder match. G1 my main issue was vial. If a vial stayed around for a few turns it was GG due to the goblin flood gates being opened. I found Needle to work absolute wonders post board. Him putting down a vial to be answered by a needle was priceless. He passed the turn, went to grab a beer and said "Let me guess, smallpox?" Yup, GG from there. Need to test this more, but if you can get vial under control it's not that bad.

Burn I kinda cheated against. Syphon life was in my main list just because I play against him. So that's our secret. Won me G1 after going down to one life. (Double Syphons in a turn take me out of burn range) I really had nothing in the board against him. Not like it mattered, all the discard shredded his hand fast. (Raven's crime + loam is nuts) Highly favorable imo.


I know not very detailed reports, but the games were friendly and I didn't keep notes. The deck is complex to play like any control deck. What I liked most was the surprise factor. They knew I had a new deck, but had no clue what I was playing. They all assumed Eva Green due to the mana base and tried to dump key cards fast fearing a hym. This played right into my Smallpoxin' plans, as it was almost always a 3:1 play. I would crack a fetch for white right before I played a swords or vindicate, "bluffing" that I was playing an Eva variant. All in all I love the deck. I will keep testing it, and test it more seriously soon. I just wanted to share my experience :cool:

[dorsch]

I replaced a Loam with an Entomb for testings, but it showed that you really want to have the 4th Loam, so on the tournament I just ran an random Entomb in one Raven's Crime-slot which was good.

I didn't like multiple Raven's Crime, I even cut them alltogether for testing. Having 5 virtual Loams seems to be the right number.

Since I run 3 Loam and 2 Entomb could you tell me why you think 3/2 is worse than 4/1?
I hardly ever get entomb countered, because 1 mana instants ist the spell most difficult to counter. During early turns I have not much lands in my graveyard anyway, so I'm often glad to entomb end of turn and get the chance to dredge a land. Of course Entomb is more flexible than Loam #4.


I would like to read, why you prefer your list over this:
I am still testing and appreciate any input.

4 Wasteland
4 Barren Mo
2 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
1 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Cabal Pit
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Windswept Heath

1 Nether Spirit
1 Gigapede

3 Mox Diamond
4 Smallpox
4 Vindicate
1 Worm Harvest
2 Innocent Blood
3 Life from the Loam
4 Sinkhole
3 Thoughtseize
2 Entomb
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard:
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Extirpate
1 Coffin Purge
2 Ravanous Trap
7 Slots which change all the time. (At the moment some Pithing Needles instead of my usual Krosan Grip ;-) Other cards I frequently use: Engineered Plague, Damnation, Dystopia, Duress)

Things I like to discuss:
- I play 25 Lands and 3 Mox Diamonds instead of 24/4: I hated to draw 2 Mox Diamonds in my opening 7 without Loam or with only one or two lands. Plus I got plenty of 1-drops.
- Only 5 Cycle Lands: I cut one Tranquil Thicket for Bojuka Bog because I don't like too many EtB tapped lands. I am very often short on green mana and got only one green mana to cast Loam, but no second for Tranquil Thicket. Since you asked what to cut for Bojuka Bog: This is what I did.
- 3 Thoughtseize: I love them (Even though I think about replacing them with Duress). They are the strongest first turn play this deck has. I feel weak, when nearly all of my first turn plays depend on Mox Diamond. Sadly I had to cut swords and Top. I will not cut these, but maybe another card to add more removal or tops?
- 2 Sensei's Divining Top: When I was in trouble to find space during sideboarding, Top #3 was always the first card I considered boarding out, so I cut it.
- No Raven's Crime: Its only good if you have Loam AND your opponent has very few or no lands (otherwise he would have no cards in his hand). In this situation can dig for answers via cycle lands as well.
- Nether Spirit: I fear depending on only 2 win conditions. Spirit is great versus every deck not using white.

Edit: @Romanus: If you face Zoo and Burn very often, Syphon Life is indeed a great card, even though it's not needed versus Zoo. Since I have troubles versus Goblins I will test some Pithing Needles in my sideboard.

[Little Red Riding Hood]

On the same day the Top 8 of the leagues were played out. [...] He defeated Ad Nauseam Storm 2-1 (it was a little bit lucky, yeah^^), Merfolk 2-1 and ProBant 2-0 in the finals.


That's me. :laugh:

Brot lent my his stylish deck full of chinese cards to play the Top 8 in Iserlohn.
I chose a straightfoward sideboard:

4 Duress
4 Sadistic Sacrament
3 Ravenous Trap
2 Coffin Purge
2 Extirpate

10 cards for the Combo matchup, 7 for Dredge.
I expected my opponent in the quarter final to play ANT (which he actually did) and at least two other guys to play Dredge (which they didn't) and one guy to play almost the same list (slightly different sideboard, but a 71-card mirror). The Rest (Goblins, Rock and Probant) should be winnable without much sideboarding.

Quarter final: Jonas (he's the guy who won that 270 players tournament in Hanau with Dream Halls) playing ANT

Game 1: On my side on the table a few irrelevant things happen, on his side turn 3 combo happens. :cry:

Game 2: I took out 3 Innocent Blood, 3 Swords and the 4 Vindicates for 4 Duress, 4 Sacrament and 2 Extirpate. After mulligan to 6 (first hand was Duress and 6 lands...) and seeing an Extirpate + landdestruction I decide to keep. I destroy a few lands and keep him off mana, hit a ritual with Duress and misplay because I don't extirpate it. In the end it doesn't matter, as he plays ritual, ritual into Ad Nauseam and the only option left for me is to extirpate his Lotus Petal....yeah, really.^^ Turns out to be good enough since he kills himself without finding enough mana.

Game 3: I mulligan into a hand with Sacrament, Raven's crime and a few lands + Mox Diamond. He plays Duress and takes the Sacrament, but I just rip another one from the top, remove both Tendrils (Sacrament > Hide/Seek) and one Dark Confidant. He plays Ad Nauseam/Infernal Tutor to find 2 Confidants, Brainstorms and a few Chants. He chants me twice, plays the third Confidant and beats me down to one life. One life is more than enough since the Harvest is in my graveyard, he already played all his chants and I have the land to retrace it in my hand. Seven 1/1 angry Worm tokens > 3 Dark Confidants. He has no solution and concedes.

Semi final: Sebastian playing Dredge....not. It's the plague of the sea instead; Monoblue Merfolk.

Game 1: He plays some lands, Merfolks and 1 or 2 Vials. I get rid of that with the help of tons of removal. When I play Entomb he tells me to just show him the Harvest and he concedes.

Game 2: I make several little mistakes (like playing Vindicate a turn too early) and he crushes me after gaining massive card advantage thanks to 2 Standstills.

Game 3: This takes forever. He has the Trap to remove one win condition (don't remember which one). At one crucial point in the game he has one card in his hand left and I have an Explosives in my hand to kill 2 Cursecatcher and a Vial. I'm dead if his last card is Stifle....but it's just some random creature.
I destroy his board and he concedes soon after. After that game, two friends tell me I have the Ravens Crime in my grave since forever. :laugh:

Final: Florian playing Pro Bant

Game 1: He gets CounterTop active and even has one of his two outs (2 Trygon Predator) for my Vindicate. Next turn, he taps out for Goyf. That Engineered Explosives in my hand suddenly looks quite amazing. :laugh:
It resolves (Predator on the top) and both Goyf and Counterbalance hit the grave. The following turns are always the same: he finds a creature, I have the removal. This goes on until he's left with 3 lands (among them: Dryad Arbor), and one card in his hand. My last, non-land, card is Swords. I ask myself: "What if his last card is Natural Order and he has a land on the top of his library?" Answer: I'm pretty much dead. So the Swords hits the Dryad and he shows me the Natural Order in his hand and the land on the top. I proceed to destroy his lands and beat him down with Gigapede.

Game 2: He has Relic and Crypt, but it doesn't matter. What matters though is the last turn of the game. I already sinkholed his Basic Forest. He has a Rhox War Monk, Tropical, Tundra and Island in play. My hand is Innocent Blood (bye bye Warmonk), Wasteland (bye bye Tropical) and Extirpate (bye bye ALL Tropicals). His short but accurate reaction: "That's game". His only green land left somewhere in his library is the single Dryad Arbor and I have Entomb to find Loam to get back Wasteland.

Edit: Here is the decklist: http://deckstats.net/deck-35623-14cf230031ac86da7566807de27148f5-en.html

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

Things I like to discuss:
- I play 25 Lands and 3 Mox Diamonds instead of 24/4: I hated to draw 2 Mox Diamonds in my opening 7 without Loam or with only one or two lands. Plus I got plenty of 1-drops.


I know that problem, but it's pretty rare. I think the advantage of 4 Moxen is higher than the disadvantage of them.



- Only 5 Cycle Lands: I cut one Tranquil Thicket for Bojuka Bog because I don't like too many EtB tapped lands. I am very often short on green mana and got only one green mana to cast Loam, but no second for Tranquil Thicket. Since you asked what to cut for Bojuka Bog: This is what I did.


That's okay for me. Cutting one Thicket for one Bog might be better :).



- 3 Thoughtseize: I love them (Even though I think about replacing them with Duress). They are the strongest first turn play this deck has. I feel weak, when nearly all of my first turn plays depend on Mox Diamond. Sadly I had to cut swords and Top. I will not cut these, but maybe another card to add more removal or tops?


That's the deck's nature. It's an truly reactive deck. It just handles what comes down on the opponents side. If you feel comfortable with the Thoughtseizes, play them. I don't really like them, I rather love to handle things on the board :).




- 2 Sensei's Divining Top: When I was in trouble to find space during sideboarding, Top #3 was always the first card I considered boarding out, so I cut it.


Yeah, I sideboard the Top out often too, but I really want to play 3 of them preboard. I like how they smooth out the deck and not let you get into a bad topdeck-mode, that's why I always want one in play.



- No Raven's Crime: Its only good if you have Loam AND your opponent has very few or no lands (otherwise he would have no cards in his hand). In this situation can dig for answers via cycle lands as well.


A while ago I thought the same, too, but the tournament on Sunday showed me, that you need one random Raven's Crime. I don't really want to waste my removal, if I could play this card in just one slot that is an recursive pseudo-removal. I need the removal to blow up the oppenent's lands he drawed :D.



- Nether Spirit: I fear depending on only 2 win conditions. Spirit is great versus every deck not using white.

Why not use Crime/Punishment? It's an removal and can be a wincondition. I don't know if it is better, but I think it's worth testing in your version; and in mine maybe too.


Thanks for the report, Michel :).

[FoolofaTook]

Game 2: I make several little mistakes (like playing Vindicate a turn too early) and he crushes me after gaining massive card advantage thanks to 2 Standstills.

Nice report.

Did he have a Cursecatcher out when you played the Vindicate? I've gone back and forth on this, but I think playing around Daze, and Spell Snare is a mistake with this deck. You're much more likely to get in trouble waiting an extra turn than taking the chance they counter your landkill. The way I see it you have more landkill than they have answers for it, given the Wasteland recursion through Life from the Loam. If your first landkill gets countered, particularly by Daze, then you are still at worst even in the race to shut them down. The kind of hand that would make it profitable for you to play around Daze and Spell Snare, e.g. a 3 or 4 land hand with 2 or 3 counters is actually a fairly unlikely draw for the opponent even when they know what you are doing.

One of the things I've rediscovered as I've been testing with this is how much a Landkill deck gets out of the surprise element and making their opponents initial decisions wrong. In the opening hand your opponent never has enough information if he does not know what you are playing beforehand. A hand that looks good enough to keep, with a fetchland, a basic and 5 cheap threats/answers, is actually likely to lose badly without ever getting off the ground. A hand with 4 land and not enough business, which will be routinely mulliganed, is actually a perfect draw against slow control Landkill. Basically the opponent has much less than an even chance to actually be staring at and keep a hand that might beat you game one.

[dorsch]

Thank you very much for your reply. Even though you could not change my mind, I got stuff to think about. ;-)
I think 3 Thoughtseizes are the reason i don't feel the need for Raven's Crime.

What do you think about 3/2 split of Loam/Entomb?


Since I run 3 Loam and 2 Entomb could you tell me why you think 3/2 is worse than 4/1?
I hardly ever get entomb countered, because 1 mana instants ist the spell most difficult to counter. During early turns I have not much lands in my graveyard anyway, so I'm often glad to entomb end of turn and get the chance to dredge a land. Of course Entomb is more flexible than Loam #4.



I
Why not use Crime/Punishment? It's an removal and can be a wincondition. I don't know if it is better, but I think it's worth testing in your version; and in mine maybe too.

Crime/Punishment could never replace Nether Spirit, because Spirit comes back when dredged and is tutorable with entomb. Sadly Spirits only great matchup is Thresh without white. Nether Spirit gets worse if there are to many (tribal) or no creatures (combo/Landstill) or if you face swords/path. That's a bunch of decks. so it's the next card I'll consider to cut.
Crime/Punishment could replace EE but I think it's worse. I could list and compare all the advantages and disadvantages of either card, but I will save my time, since I think it's easy to compare these cards.

If you had (@ my list) 5 slots for Top and EE, would you chose a 3/2 or a 2/3 split? Why?

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

Thank you very much for your reply. Even though you could not change my mind, I got stuff to think about. ;-)
I think 3 Thoughtseizes are the reason i don't feel the need for Raven's Crime.

What do you think about 3/2 split of Loam/Entomb?



Crime/Punishment could never replace Nether Spirit, because Spirit comes back when dredged and is tutorable with entomb. Sadly Spirits only great matchup is Thresh without white. Nether Spirit gets worse if there are to many (tribal) or no creatures (combo/Landstill) or if you face swords/path. That's a bunch of decks. so it's the next card I'll consider to cut.
Crime/Punishment could replace EE but I think it's worse. I could list and compare all the advantages and disadvantages of either card, but I will save my time, since I think it's easy to compare these cards.

If you had (@ my list) 5 slots for Top and EE, would you chose a 3/2 or a 2/3 split? Why?

No problem :).

Oh, I totally forgot the split-question. I've tested the 3/2-split, but with 4/1 I feel more comfortable. Rather than tutoring the Loam I would have it instantly and uncounterable in most cases. Sure, the 3/2-split is more flexible (and slower), but it's also a bit more dangerous. The guy that made several Top 8 with the deck first played the 3/2-, but then switched back to the 4/1-split. I don't know why he made that change, but from my point of view two Entombs without the Nether Spirit aren't that strong.

[Little Red Riding Hood]

Nice report.

Thanks. =)



Did he have a Cursecatcher out when you played the Vindicate? I've gone back and forth on this, but I think playing around Daze, and Spell Snare is a mistake with this deck. You're much more likely to get in trouble waiting an extra turn than taking the chance they counter your landkill

That's one of the most important decisions when playing against Merfolk: a) Play around Daze and take some extra damage or b) risk that they have the Daze and if they don't prevent damage through removal.

Daze can be annoying, since you can't play around with Vindicate or Sinkhole and sometimes Smallpox. I'd say, only Standstill is more annoying in the Merfolk matchup. But i'm not sure if it's always a mistake to play arround Daze. It depends on the spell and situation.

In the second game in my report above the target for Vindicate was Vial. I needed to get rid of it, no matter what. But he had the Daze and coud assemble Vial + Standstill just two turns later.

[FoolofaTook]

In the second game in my report above the target for Vindicate was Vial. I needed to get rid of it, no matter what. But he had the Daze and coud assemble Vial + Standstill just two turns later.

So if you waited an extra turn he'd just have dropped Standstill next to the Vial anyway. You made the right call to go get the Vial instead of playing around Daze. If he doesn't pick up the Island to Daze, because you didn't cast Vindicate then he drops Standstill the next turn. It was a no-win situation for you - those happen. What scenario do you see where waiting an extra turn would have given you a better chance to shut him down?

What I'm seeing over and over again in testing is that if the opponent gets a few turns of play in at the start the game becomes dramatically more difficult to control. If I'm holding Sinkhole or Smallpox in hand on turn 2 or Vindicate on turn 3 and the opponent is still dropping land I've got to keep removing it. Even if they Daze they've lost tempo by picking up the Island. If they Spell Snare or Spell Pierce? Well you can't win every battle but at least it's still a 1 for 1 trade.

[MrShine]

Hey guys,

I did a bit of testing with the deck today (vs CT Bant); I was having alot of trouble getting any action going beyond the first couple turns when I didn't have loam. So my question is, what is the game plan when you don't have a loam in the 7? Is it the right move to aggressively mulligan into one? On that note, it seemed like there was a big disadvantage associated with mulliganing with the deck - with mox diamond, smallpox and wasteland there is alot of card disadvantage and when opening on a 6 card hand it seems even worse (especially without loam). What have your experiences been with this? Is the correct move to slow-roll a hand until a loam can be obtained? If this is the case, neglecting to bring heavy LD in the first couple turns seems like it would loose us too much tempo, especially if there are significant threats being played on the other side of the table.

In the same vein, the cycling lands seemed lackluster and contributed to hands that became questionable keeps where they would have been fine with any other land... moreover, the CIPT clause was awkward and seemed to loose tempo. They were mainly a problem vs Daze.

My experience with the deck has been pretty limited, so if I'm taking the wrong approach any help would be greatly appreciated. There is alot going on with the deck, and it seems so far that the learning curve is pretty steep.

Cheers,

MrShine

[Sevryn]

Hey guys,

I did a bit of testing with the deck today (vs CT Bant); I was having alot of trouble getting any action going beyond the first couple turns when I didn't have loam. So my question is, what is the game plan when you don't have a loam in the 7? Is it the right move to aggressively mulligan into one?

Cheers,

MrShine

I also have limited testing with the deck, but I find it helpful to think of the deck as a Pox deck with color splashes. You want to punish your opponent for extending at all with Sinkhole, Innocent Blood, Smallpox, and Wasteland. It's very important to contain the board, more-so than it is important to have Loam running. However, where other Pox decks can stall in the mid-game, this deck can use Loam for massive mid-game card-advantage as well as dredging into its win conditions. So I would say that no, you do not need to mulligan into Loam, I would say it is more important to have a hand with good initial board control.

[dorsch]

Hey guys,

I did a bit of testing with the deck today (vs CT Bant); I was having alot of trouble getting any action going beyond the first couple turns when I didn't have loam. So my question is, what is the game plan when you don't have a loam in the 7? Is it the right move to aggressively mulligan into one? On that note, it seemed like there was a big disadvantage associated with mulliganing with the deck - with mox diamond, smallpox and wasteland there is alot of card disadvantage and when opening on a 6 card hand it seems even worse (especially without loam). What have your experiences been with this? Is the correct move to slow-roll a hand until a loam can be obtained? If this is the case, neglecting to bring heavy LD in the first couple turns seems like it would loose us too much tempo, especially if there are significant threats being played on the other side of the table.

In the same vein, the cycling lands seemed lackluster and contributed to hands that became questionable keeps where they would have been fine with any other land... moreover, the CIPT clause was awkward and seemed to loose tempo. They were mainly a problem vs Daze.

My experience with the deck has been pretty limited, so if I'm taking the wrong approach any help would be greatly appreciated. There is alot going on with the deck, and it seems so far that the learning curve is pretty steep.

Cheers,

MrShine

I would never-ever mulligan into Loam. You don't need Loam during the first few turns and usually won't have the time to cast it. Loam is not that great without cycle Lands or Wastelands.
When looking at your starting 7 you should look for (besides a solid mana base) a good mix of land destruction and creature control. You have to destroy as much as possible during turns 1-3. Card advantage through Loam engine usually starts afterwards. (besides some nuts hands like land,land,land, mox,mox,loam, vindicate) Remember, Sensei's Divining Top also helps finding Loam later on.

[FoolofaTook]

What I look for in the opening hand is two ways to kill a land and one way to kill a creature (not The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale). It's ok if Smallpox fills both roles. After I see that I then look for ways to see more cards, either Sensei's Divining Top, Life from the Loam or a cycle land or two. Then I'm looking for 3 lands, or 2 if Wasteland filled the first condition. There are a lot of variations that are no-brainers when you look at them and after you have played the deck for awhile they'll become apparent.

In the specific case of CT Bant the requirements are even more lenient than they are against most of the aggro control in the meta because their casting curve is slightly higher than most CT or Threshold variants. They'll also make the mistake of holding on to Rhox War Monk and pitching other things to Force of Will game one until they realize what they are facing, RWM will never land against you and if by some chance he does he'll be gone very quickly thereafter.

[MrShine]

Thanks for the replies

In testing I had been keeping hands with early pressure (LD/creature removal) and thus was playing quite aggressively; what I found was that with smallpox, while a great blowout 2nd turn, put me down too many cards vs blue when they had cantrips to filter their draws for what they needed. Maybe it was bad luck, but beyond T3, it seemed like a crap-shoot as to whether I could find anything relevant with top (when I had it) to keep me in the game when they were still playing lands/threats, even after destroying 2-3 lands and a couple creatures. What I am getting at is that the bridge between early to mid game seems heavily reliant on luck (both with and without Top) to draw into loam or more business spells to keep parity on cards or to even start generating card advantage. Maybe the problems arent as bad against non-blue decks when there isnt a risk of important LD/removal spells being countered when playing pretty much off the top, but it seems like vomiting your hand for early pressure is too reliant on them not getting more land/threats vs you drawing more LD/creature removal/loam as the situation warrants it.

EDIT: specifically, the situation where the CT player would have a goyf on board after the first three turns of disruption/removal came up alot, with the Trisomy player waiting for answers off the top, which resulted in drawing more LD or lands (which didnt help) or when answers did come up were they were as often as not locked out by counterbalance

This isnt to say I'm giving up hope; I have a feeling LD is a very powerful tool right now, especially since alot of decks are trying to cheat on mana sources - supreme U, survival and tempo decks are either very mana hungry, mana light, or both, and LD, as we all know, can be crippling and just win games :D More testing will ensue.

Being a rock player, I feel like I want a threat or two to back up the early LD/disruption and create some pressure, although i realize that adding creatures (it seems manlands aren't looked highly upon by you guys - why?) makes this into a different deck :P

[FoolofaTook]

Being a rock player, I feel like I want a threat or two to back up the early LD/disruption and create some pressure, although i realize that adding creatures (it seems manlands aren't looked highly upon by you guys - why?) makes this into a different deck :P

No manlands because the deck does not support them given the cycle lands and wasteland. It's too much of a color screw at that point.

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

@MrShine: Thanks for your thoughts. Could you describe how you're playing the deck, especially in what situation you are casting the Smallpox? Have you got examples for me of which hands do you keep and which you mulligan? As dorsch said, mulliganning into Life from the Loam isn't good at all. All you need is a bit LD and creature-removal, the rest is almost always coming from the top :).

@All: I've tested the Dredge-MU yesterday. I needed getting used to it first, but after a little bit of postboard testing it's flavorable, if you know how to play against it. Furthermore I tested the Combo-MU a bit. It seams quite winable. In which extend I don't know yet. Here is my recent SB:

4 Duress
3 Raven's Crime
2 Coffin Purge
2/3 Extirpate
3 Ravenous Trap
(1 Tabernacle)

[Al-ucard]

How are you doing against aggro or fast decks? Lately I'm losing a lot against Goblin decks... I'm thinking of fit plagues in side another time...

[Nekrataal]

I was thinking about a more general SB strategy. Therefore the best cards to put into on a general level imho are Needle, Grip and Extirpate because they serve on a broad scale.

3x Needle (stops GY hatee, Vials and random stuff)
3x Grip (stops GY hate, BtB<- saw sooo many lately, CBTop, random stuff)
3x Extirpate (decent amti combo card, decent reactive card to remove GY hate and other random stuff but especially meant for "LD" on Duals)

In addition I was writing up a spreadsheet identifying several threats which are Tribals, Combo (Dredge, ANT), GY Hate and Burn and rating some relevant SB cards. A lot of dicussion is ongoing for specific cards for special matchups like Dredge or Tribal. Unfortunately there are not many multi-purpose cards that serve either as a good hoser for e.g. Tribal and Combo whatsoever. So choices have to be made by anticipating the metagame. However in my opinion there is one cards that deals with complete Combo (Dredge, ANT) AND all Burn which is more then any card like Ravenous Trap, Cop:Red, Zuran Orb, Sadistic Sacrament or other cards can do. Since we play Mox Diamond it can come down Turn 2 and as I loved playing Staxx ... I am talking of Trinisphere. Sure it can be to slow but so can SS or most of the other option we have (besides for Dredge). Trinisphere shuts down Dredge and Storm completely and with our LD they will never get enough mana again. Sure they have there spells to deal with it but they cost and it takes time to get there, at least for ANT it means: if they can pay for them at all. For Sligh or Burn, Trinisphere plus LD means no more spells usually. Sure we have to deal with what is on the table still. For us Trinisphere doesn't hurt too much. if we get into the mid-game it just isn't relevant anymore. So I am suggesting:

4x Trinisphere

What do you think? Is it too slow? Is it still too slow compared to all the other options we have?

Now the free slots are really metagame dependend. They could be Ravenous Traps (Dredge) or CotV (ANT), Zuran Orb or CoP:Reds (Sligh, Burn) or EE / Ghostly Prison (though I think both are not that good in the Tribal matchup) or simply Duress/Thoughtseize. For next tournament on Sunday in Bochum I probably will choose the two Ravenous Traps because I feel that Dredge will be strong. CU there Brot ;)

2x free slots (Ravenous Trap)

Side notice: I tried 2 additional Stop SB but think this was a mistake since I thought I need them against Merfolk and Goblins. But usually if I do not have a Mox white Duals are the first target for Wastelands :/

The rest of the deck is:

3 Wasteland
4 Barren Mo (maybe one goes -> Bojuka Bog)
2 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
1 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Cabal Pit
1 Tranquil Thicket
2 Mishra (quite happy with these since they allowed a quick beatdown when no other option is available. they won me games quite often)
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (very unhappy with this one, but I feel I need it to compensate for 2 Mishra)

1 Gigapede

4 Mox Diamond
4 Smallpox
4 Vindicate
1 Worm Harvest
3 Innocent Blood
4 Life from the Loam
4 Sinkhole
1 Syphon Life (=> currently the weakest card, but i have 0 Lifegain not even in the SB and it was very valuable in a few games)
1 Raven's Crime
1 Entomb (=> test slot)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Swords to Plowshares

So there are 2 slots (Entomb, Syphon Life) that could be changed to either a fourth Innocent Blood or 4th Wastelands or both ...

[dorsch]

@Al-ucard: I did not test a lot versus Goblins, but I believe we need some decent sb cards to win this matchup.

@Nekrataal:

your decklist:

I like the Bojuka Bog, but I would always cut tranquil thicket first, not barren moor. I run only 5 cycle lands, which is low. I would prefer 6, but 4 is way too low.
Mishras Factory has a lot of disadvantages. besides of stretching the manabase (I think colorless lands act similar like splashing a fourth color) you add some creatures which give them some targets for their otherwie dead creature removal. Getting sinkholed for one mana (Bolt) hurts even with this deck.
NEVER run less than 4 Wastelands. It's stupid to add Factories when you have to cut Wastelands.
I like running a total 5 of Loam + Entomb, but can't decide whether 3/2 or 4/1 is better.
I don't like Raven's Crime. I believe Syphon life is good only in Burn/Zoo heavy metas. Both cards would favor a 3/2 split at Loam/Entomb.
The other cards are pretty standard.

your SB:

It's funny, I recently settled 2 Needle, 2 K. Grip and 3 Extirpate as the absolute core of my SB.
I did not test Trinispheres but Sphere of Resistance. Sphere of R. are very bad and even though they are faster, their impact is too low so maybe 3sphere is better.
Because of my different maindeck (2 I Blood, 2 Swords, 3 Thoughtseizes) I feel the urge to run 2 swords in sb. I'm still not sure if it's right.

[Nekrataal]

Thanks for your thoughts, dorsch, they are highly appreciated. You are right about the thicket. The only time where it would be better theoretically is against Extirpates but then as an opponent I would choose Loam as a target if possible or a win condition. So yes, I agree, you are right, I stick with the 4 Barren Moore at a minimum and rethink adding Bojuka Bog for the 5th cycling land.

Usually I face one problem. The opponent is under control (no mana) but I do not have a wincondition yet (sometimes I don't even have Loam and/or Top for digging). Mishra's Factory can beat face quite savely then. I had a considerable amount of games that went this way. Especially against Threshold when they had almost no land to definitely no white land and no creatures on board. But you are right in one way: I really would like to play 4 Wastelands. Raven's Crime can be good if your mana denial strategy does not work as intended. Otherwise you anyway do not care about cards that cannot be played due to mana short. So Raven's Crime and Syphon Life CAN be total Gamebreaking or just pretty boring to useless. Still since I have no sideboard space left I would leave Raven's Crime at least.

Loam/Entomb: I was pondering about that questions as well. I was content with 3 Loam before (no Entomb) since dredging and cycling is more of a mid-lategame option to use effectively. On the other hand having a Loam early on ensures that your mana denial/discard doesnt affect yourself too much if you hold a hand with Smallpox. Including fetchlands and early Loam interactions it can already guarantee better draws so theoretically it is also good in any phase of the game. By realizing that I play 4 now which is safer since Entomb can be countered an then you have nothing while you can dredge Loam back to your hand. Still Entomb is any of your winconditions plus more utility, so it must be good somehow. ^^, so 4:1 would be my call.

SB: I totally agree with your core SB as you can imagine ;) I have played Staxx a lot and recently tested Mud Stompy with the new Lodestone Golem and of all taxing elements I like Sphere of resistance least because it sometimes is as or even more effective against yourself as against your opponent. Plus: If you have other taxing elements like Trinisphere on the table it is almost useless (well that would not account for Loam Pox). Anyway I am sure if Trinisphere sticks this should be quite devastating for Combo and Burn.

Swords SB suck = my experience. I had some testgames in a store against Merfolks and I hardly could play Vinidcates / Stops without Mox or Loam (the latter is too slow to recur lwasted lands). So if you have to run more creature removal sideboard I would tend to choose black spells like more innocent bloods, more maybe Smother and the like to assure play with basic lands.

[FoolofaTook]

The sideboard from hell:

-4 Life from the Loam
-1 Worm Harvest
-1 Gigapede
-1 Raven's Crime
-1 Cabal Pit
-2 Tranquil Thicket
-2 Mox Diamond
-2 Innocent Blood
-1 Engineered Explosives

+4 Tarmogoyf
+4 Dark Confidant
+4 Thoughtseize
+3 Lodestone Golem

So game 2 with them with almost no creature removal left you have:

4x Barren Moor (no way to remove these and still make Moxes work)
4x Marsh Flats
2x Verdant Catacombs
3x Bayou
3x Scrubland
2x Swamp
4x Wasteland

2x Mox Diamond
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Engineered Explosives

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
3x Lodestone Golem

3x Swords to Plowshares

1x Innocent Blood
4x Thoughtseize
4x Vindicate
4x Smallpox
4x Sinkhole

The matchups not helped all that much are storm combo and dredge, both of which remain kind of ugly although you can get lucky in them. The matchups reinforced heavily are Zoo, Merfolk, Tempo Threshold, Landstill and just about everything else that is slightly positive now. Game one you catch them with too much creature removal in the deck and game two with not enough. it's a nasty thing to watch in play.

[Nekrataal]

I wouldnt bet that the mentioned decks that play removal have enough sideboards cards to bring in to not have any removal still in their maindeck (well ***** probably). Bolts can still go to our head instead. Landstill also as other outs (but is neither DTB nor DTW). Anyway I think that this transformational SB does not improve our bad matchups much or at all and it also does not much against our already OK matchups. Don't forget the Dredge / ANT are on the DTB/DTW list and it is likely that you play them at least once in a tournament. BTW I think there is a big difference between playing GoyfSligh and Zoo. Goyfsligh ist almost as playing Burn. Zoo has much more dead cards against us.

Where do I see this deck against the DTB/DTW:

Even to favorable against Thresh / CounterTop / Survival (not counting Elves!)
Even to favorable against Zoo
Even to unfavorable against Tribal, probably worst is Goblins, then Elves, then Merfolk
Unfavorable against Burn, Goyfsligh
Unfavorbale against Combo, worst ANT and Ichorid with LED, then LEDless Ichorid

The SB discussed between dorsch and me improves Tribal, Thresh, Zoo, Goyfsligh, Burn and Combo Matchups so addressing every unfavorable matchup and typical GY hate. I do not say that this is enough to call it even or favorable for Combo matchups but at least the cards have an reasonable effect when the hit play. There are also more specific choices that can be made if the metagame is known in more detail especially for the Dredge and Tribal matchup or if you expect alot of Sligh/Burn.

[FoolofaTook]

I wouldnt bet that the mentioned decks that play removal have enough sideboards cards to bring in to not have any removal still in their maindeck (well ***** probably).

The opponent is thinking three things as he sideboards:

1. Damn, landkill - who could have seen that coming and do I have anything in the sideboard to fix it?

The answer to that one is usually no.

2. Dredge! I can fix that! In come 4-7 cards that are designed to fix GY based strategies.

3. Now what the heck do I take out? Didn't see creatures other than the Gigapede and worm tokens so the creature removal has to come out at this point.

Now your deck has nothing left that is GY based, so the tune-ins they made are fairly useless. Your deck however has 11 creatures that will kill pretty fast if they hit the board and stick around, and the opponent has removed a good part of their specific creature removal as they brought the anti-GY hate in.

The deck you wind up with, listed above, would only be really effective in a meta in which creature removal was light to non-existent and GY hate was main deck due to a heavy GY based population. You've created that situation with your sideboard and with the display of T21 game one.

My take on the matchups after tuning:

Zoo - walkover. Actually it's a walkover before tuning because they don't have enough land to be able to play effectively against you and they have no counters/discard to prevent you from reducing them to early rubble. The one out they have is if the game goes long enough that they can chip away at you with burn and kill you that way, given that they'll draw enough 1cc burn to kill you eventually. Adding the creatures gives you a much faster win after you have knocked them off stride early.

CounterTop - favorable. You're not going to let them play their 3cc bombs although they can hold out for awhile and even beat you with a very favorable land draw but blue hates landkill even with counters and potentially Counterbalance to stop it. They're short land also and the 18-21 land matchups are very favorable for T21 in almost any configuration. Without creature removal they're going to die to an early Goyf or Golem.

Tempo Threshold - very favorable. They play 18 land - that's just not enough to beat this deck if you're trying to hold onto the land to get other permanents in play and protect them. A Swamp - Thoughtseize combo in the opening hand is probably enough to thrash Tempo Threshold unless they get a great draw. They'll be mulling game 2 fairly often because they will not keep 2 land hands unless they look just golden otherwise.

Vial Goblins - even. Vial is the problem. Goyf is the solution. If you have and they don't then you're fine. If they have and you don't then you're toast. You're going to make their land go away and eventually the Vial when you draw into Vindicate or EE. Living to that point is the issue.

Bant Survival - extremely favorable bordering on walkover. They tune in their GY hate and tune out StP - you just walk all over them game two. Bant Survival needs mana to function with Survival in, and it's not very good when they tune Survival out and Gaddock Teeg in to stop Worm Harvest.

ANT - Poor. Even if they tune in the GY hate, which a good player will not do, it basically comes down to getting lucky on Thoughtseize in the opening hand to have any real chance. If they beat you game one, which they probably did, then you have a shot by Thoughtseizing, followed by Sinkhole or Smallpox but it's just a shot.

Ichorid Dredge - Poor. Better than main deck because you can put out a big Goyf to try to stabilize while you work on their land base but it's still not a good matchup. Thoughtseize on LED or PImp can cause problems for them game 2.

Aggro Loam - Average. Better than main deck though because you have a chance to beat them down fast with a Goyf. They will never get to their big finisher unless they get LftL working and you have enough removal to keep their early creatures off of you.

Merfolk - even. Vial again, this time backed up by counters and Cursecatcher. Adding creatures to this matchup and removing the loam elements improves it, particularly given that you play no islands and that the opponent may well have sided in GY hate if you gave him trouble game one.

Survival - favorable. Survival needs mana and you won't let them have it. The problems in this matchup are their targeted discard early. One Thoughtseize followed up by Cabal Therapy can wreck you. That's just what it is.

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

@FoolofaTook:

How is the new SB working? I haven't tested it yet, but I'm not really convinced that adding creatures in the SB is that good... I'm testing the Combo/Gy-hate-SB this weekend. I hope, if I got paired against those decks, that I could crush them game 2 and 3.

@Nekrataal:

I'm still thinking that playing Factories (espacially by cutting one Wasteland) is good. Without Urborg in play you can't produce the black mana you need so hard.

[Rune]

I will test the original deck with something like:

+2 Crop Rotation
+1 Tabernacle
+1 Bojuka Bog

Should make the Goblin and Dredge matchups byes

[FoolofaTook]

@FoolofaTook:

How is the new SB working? I haven't tested it yet, but I'm not really convinced that adding creatures in the SB is that good... I'm testing the Combo/Gy-hate-SB this weekend. I hope, if I got paired against those decks, that I could crush them game 2 and 3.



I'll let you know when I try it in a tournament. Things kind of quiet in NE US at the moment. I envy you guys with all of the Euro qualifiers for Madrid. That has been a hopping meta for two months now.

I'd be curious to hear how the anti-combo SB is working. My experience is that the only thing that gives me a shot against combo is Root Maze and it's too weak to main deck unless there are a lot of combo decks in the field.

[Nekrataal]

Ah well *sigh* I adapted my list more to your suggestions ;) in the end I guess you have played it more often than me up to now, don't you ;) ? Anyway here is what I changed

+1 Wasteland to come to 4
-1 Cycling Land to play 5 for 1 Bojuka Bog
-1 Fetchland to play 4 and put in Gargoyle Castle as a try out

Since Trinisphere is there to take care of Zoo, Sligh and Burn I dropped Syphon Life for the 4th innocent blood. I also play 4 Loam now and 1 Entomb just in case for a silver bullet.

Here is the full list again which now looks pretty standard:

The deck now is:

24 Lands:
4 Wasteland
4 Barren Mo (maybe one goes -> Bojuka Bog)
2 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
1 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Cabal Pit
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Gargoyle Castle

1 Creature:
1 Gigapede

35 Spells:
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smallpox
4 Vindicate
1 Worm Harvest
4 Innocent Blood
4 Life from the Loam
4 Sinkhole
1 Raven's Crime
1 Entomb
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Swords to Plowshares

SB:
3 Pithing Needle (Merfolk, Goblins => Vial, CounterTop => Top, Random Stuff)
3 Krosan Grip (CounterTop, nasty Enchantmenst like BtB or Survival, GY-Hate)
3 Extirpate (Duals, nasty creatures to reduce the number of them, Iona (though I thought about playing Reanimate myself), other Win conditions, things destroyed with Krosan Grip so they never return, random stuff)
4 Trinisphere (Zoo, ANT, Dredge suffer greatly from it)
2 Ravenous Trap (Dredge)

Except some SB choices I actually do not see much room for further development. Just very few slots main can be messed with.

/EDIT/ Yeah great, just read the internet site and the tourney has been canceled :/ /EDIT/

[jazzykat]

I've tried this deck out and it is hillarious. The little kid in me that loves blowing up lands and when I can pair that with my desire to play Smallpox and Sinkhole while still being competive I'm tickled.

In most of the lists I've noticed the lack of Tabernacle. Is that because this deck really doesn't need it or is it an availability issue?

[Sevryn]

I've tried this deck out and it is hillarious. The little kid in me that loves blowing up lands and when I can pair that with my desire to play Smallpox and Sinkhole while still being competive I'm tickled.

In most of the lists I've noticed the lack of Tabernacle. Is that because this deck really doesn't need it or is it an availability issue?

I believe it is a 'need lands that produce mana' issue.

[Nekrataal]

Still you can play 1 without any problems I guess as I played Mishra before and now Bojuka Bog or Gargoyle Castle. However I think that it does not help much early game, since you need the mana and have other means to control creatures that you also have to use to reduce mana sources (Smallpox). Lategame there shouldnt be any creatures on the table that matter but a Tabernacle surely would add a "lock" piece to ensure that. But this only accounts to decks playing a lot of creatures anyway. Following that route there is one case where I could imagine Tabernacle is valuable and that is in the matchups Goblins/Merfolks that both play Vial. I had strange games against both decks where they had like 0 land but Vial out and kept attacking me with creatures. It has kind of the same use as Ghostly Prison (which I do not play SB but would eventually add knowning the metagame afforts it). If you play Entomb you also have a chance to actually get Tabernacle when you need it. As a resumee I still would say that it is optional and only condtionally useful. SO if you expect a lot of Tribal at your local store you could play SB (neclegt the COmbo matchup)

1 Tabernacle
2 Ghostly Prison
3 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing needle
3 Extirpate

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

I believe it is a 'need lands that produce mana' issue.

That's right. You really need the space and lands that produce mana.

@jazzykat: Nice to hear that you like the deck :).


So, I've played the deck yesterday in Iserlohn. 54 people were there. Here is my list:

MD:
// Lands
1 Cabal Pit
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Swamp
4 Wasteland
2 Scrubland
4 Barren Moor
1 Forest
1 Bog

// Creatures
1 Gigapede

// Spells
3 Innocent Blood
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Mox Diamond
1 Worm Harvest
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Vindicate
4 Life from the Loam
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Raven's Crime
1 Entomb

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 3 Ravenous Trap
SB: 4 Duress
SB: 1 Coffin Purge
SB: 1 Tabernacle
SB: 3 Raven's Crime

Here is a short overview:
- Canadian Thresh (1-2): G3 he began with second turn and third turn Goyf. My Smallpox and my EE were countered. GG.
- Trisomy 21 (ID): Wow, as every tournament we have to play against each other. We drawed because the mirror isn't any fun.
- Elephant Stompy (2-1): I made a mistake which nearly costed me game 3.
- B/W Sui (2-1)
- Canadian Thresh (2-1): G3 he began with Tropical, go. I waste it. Lucky me that he hasn't got the Stifle. He played a fetchland and passed the turn. I played a Swamp and said go. In my EOT-step he fetched, in response I extirpated his Tropical. After realizing that he boarded out his Burn, he scooped.
- Land (1-2): I destroyed a Chalice 1 on his side in G3 which was just bad. He played Exploration and Manabond and I'm dead.

In the end I'm 3-2-1. There were four other Trisomy-decks, it really surprised me. My best friend (the guy from round 2) went 3-2-1, too, the others were worse because most of them played the deck the first time.

A few thought: The Bog was just bad. I always wished for a Tranquil Thicket. The SB was okay, but I think I have to play a few more Coffin Purges and replace the Crimes with a better card. But all in all I'm pretty happy with the deck :)

[nodahero]

So what does everyone feel is the current problem with this deck?

Personally I dislike the lack of kill conditions. It isn't that I have ever lost because of it (although I should have). I dislike it because I can often find myself praying for the lone worm harvest or one of the two Entomb... Not a feeling I enjoy.

I personally am interested in the transformational sideboard plan. I might test it in like 2 weeks at a legacy tourney.

[Al-ucard]

The main problem with this deck are fast decks that can play with only 1-2 lands like zoo or eva green. My 2 cents

[Nekrataal]

I did some extensive tests yesterday with a friend of mine (well extensive in a way what you can achieve in one evening). We tested Goyflisgh, Zoo and Dredge matchup with my current SB. Trinisphere came in after G1 and I was most interested in games after sideboarding. The results including game 1:

1:5 Goyfsligh
4:1 Zoo
3:2 Dredge

My impressions: Goyfsligh just sucks even with Trinisphere they play enough lands and enough basics to deny our LD strategy. Often enough the Goyfsligh deck couldn't play spells for some rounds but since we cannot win quick enough they eventually get some land and some Burn and game is over. I also boarded Extirpates for this matchup to avoid the worst like PoP which can really be painful. Zoo on the other hand which does not seem to be that different on first glance plays out completely different. The rely much more on there three colors and have less Burn, so they are more susceptable to LD and pose a lesser threat in burning us out. Zoo wasn't soo quick to recover from "Trinisphere / LD locks" because Wasteland was much more valuable. Normal Zoo list play like 3 basics of each color. Goyflsigh list play 5-6 Mountains and a basic Forest. In addition Zoo has more irrelevant spells like PtE against us. All in all this seems to give the kick that we can beat it far more easily than Goyfsligh.v

The Dredge matchup still is fickle because Ichorid can combo Turn 1 or 2. Game 1 you cannot win imho. Even with no land Ichorids beat the shit out of you (dread Return isnt even needed). After SBing Trinisphere, Extirpate and Ravenous Crime are serious threats. Especially Extirpate is valuable at start to slow down the Dredge player. Taken him by surprise after LEDing his hand is priceless. Once Trinisphere sticks there is only Ichorids to take care of. All three games that I won went the same route. Extirpate first Dredge Enabler (slow down). Play Trinisphere, and keep the dredge player at 0 lands (which is easy). Next Extirpate on Ichorids so the only way they have left to produce tokens with Bridges is gone.

[nodahero]

@ Nekrataal: What sideboard are you currently testing? Personally I am in the process of testing the above sideboard which essentially makes this transform into a near stax esq deck. If you are having problems with burn you could work on your side to include either Chalice or Zuran Orb which are both solid against Zoo.

The only problem I have had with this deck was randomly drawing dead even with a Top in play. I am currently looking into adding more fetches or searching for some powerful effects that would allow me to tutor or dredge off chaff to get rid of the top 3 so I can top a-new.

[Sevryn]

@ Nekrataal: What sideboard are you currently testing? Personally I am in the process of testing the above sideboard which essentially makes this transform into a near stax esq deck. If you are having problems with burn you could work on your side to include either Chalice or Zuran Orb which are both solid against Zoo.

The only problem I have had with this deck was randomly drawing dead even with a Top in play. I am currently looking into adding more fetches or searching for some powerful effects that would allow me to tutor or dredge off chaff to get rid of the top 3 so I can top a-new.

Tutor: Entomb
Dredge: Life from the Loam

You can even Entomb for Life from the Loam.

[FoolofaTook]

Entomb helps you recover from an otherwise game-defining event when the opponent removes your graveyard mid-game. The problem I'm having with the deck in it's main form at this point is that it is vulnerable to graveyard hate and my meta packs a lot of graveyard hate due to Ichorid showing up as much as it does.

[Nekrataal]

We did a test gauntlet again yesterday. I played several matches again Mono U Control and Elves Survival. The basic learning i got from this is that I need to have two different SBs. One against a more Combo, Burn, Zoo (because here Trinisphere shines, you possibly could aslo add CotV) orientated meta and one against a more Tribal / Aggro orientated meta (opting for Engineered Plague, Ghostly Prison, Zuran Orb or CoP: Red). There is an intersection between both when looking at Sligh decks for eample. However the sad thing about it is that you cannot be prepared for both without playing 25 SB cards.

How the games went against Mono U Control: The games went loooooong. I think under tournament condition we could have played not even a second game. The game is definitely in favor of Loam Pox. They have very few threats you can usually handle if you keep enough creature control than they can counter (this happens automatically becasue the creature removal will clog your hand). Shackles on their side are useless. The only card that you should be prepared for is BtB (and maybe Nev-Disk). So fetch for basics first. Raven's Crime is top in this matchup like everything else with retrace. G2 you can expect some graveyard love. I boarded Pithing Needle, Krosan Grip, Extirpate for STD, some targetted removal (Mono U plays shroud creatures like we do) and some LD. the latter is resonable imho since we cannot win fast, have the time we need and Mono U plays a lot of basic lands. Preserve Extirpate for BtB or Tormods Crypt. BTW: I was very happy with having 3 winconditions (not only Worm Harvest and Gigapede) because in one game two very removed but I still could win with Gargoyle castle (since my opponent boarded Shackles out).

How the games went against Elves: Always close. My impression was that who goes first wins. The games I lost I often did control at the beginning but due to the massive amount of mana and creatures the deck can produce control slipped from me, I was running out of answers and didnt find any win conditions soon enough. Comeback Elves so to say! Cabal Pit shines in this matchup because it is recurring removal for mana elves. The lord who gives Forestwalk (can't remember the name right now) sucks most besides all the mana elves. After boarding Trinisphere (which is subpar against Elves) nothing changed a lot. This is a matchup where a SB tuned to Tribal and Aggro decks is more suitable.

[FoolofaTook]

The Tabernacle at Pendrall Vale is very good against Elves due to the lower number of lands in the deck and the heavy reliance on mana elves to reach the golden 4.

[SrArcos]

Hello, I think this is the first time I write in this forum, but I've been reading it for a long time ago.

Now, I'm interested in this deck. It seems so hard... but I'm considering to include Crop Rotation, to build something like this:

Control Loam

4 Wasteland
4 Barren Moor
2 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
1 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Cabal Pit
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Nantuko Monastery

1 Creature:
1 Gigapede

35 Spells:
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smallpox
4 Vindicate
1 Worm Harvest
3 Innocent Blood
3 Life from the Loam
4 Sinkhole
1 Raven's Crime
1 Entomb
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Crop Rotation

Side

4 Trinisphere (combo, burn, sligh)
3 Krosan Grip (countertop, shackles, BtB, tormods, relic, vial, survival, stax)
2 Extirpate (reanimator, control, dregde, combo)
1 Raven's Crime(2nd against control, combo)
1 Crop Rotation(3rd)
1 Bojuka Boj (2nd against dregde)
1 Tarbernacle of Pendrell Vale(instead Plague, against agro, combo-elves)
1 Boseiju, Who shelters all (control, countertop)

I like Nantuko Monastery more than Gargoyle Castte as 3rd finisher. But only 2 Top... :/

What do you think about it?

[dorsch]

With Bojuka Bog I like the idea of crop rotation being instant Graveyard hate. But I believe its still too bad to be played maindeck.
Crop Rotation is card disadvantage. Versus most decks, the best land you will fetch is a wasteland. And sacrificing a land is an additional cost, so its bad versus counterspells.
I play 1 Bojuka Bog main, 1 in sideboard, 1 Tabernacle side and 2 crop rotation side. I'm still testing and will share my experience after some results.

[FoolofaTook]

I think I would go Living Wish before Crop Rotation in this deck, although I don't really like either idea. The deck needs consistent plays early on and Crop Rotation lends itself instead to a single powerful play with major drawbacks.

As dorsch points out the most likely thing to use CR for in game 1 will be a Wasteland. In that scenario you sacrifice a land, play a spell and then put a land in place that you are planning to sacrifice. It's hard to see how that turns into a net positive for the deck.

[Nekrataal]

OK that's it for me with this deck. I played 2 tournaments today and went 1:3 and 1:4. Everybody and his mother plays Vial and / or Tribal. My matchups were first tourney: Aggro Elves (0:2), Zoo (1:2) really close but unlucky 3rd game, Dragon Stompy (0:2) 2x first turn Bloodmoon, thx man. Second tourney: Goblins (1:2), Aggro Elves (1:2), Glimpse of Nature Combo Elves (1:2), Strange Elves with Omnath (2:1), Fish with Vial and Weathered Wayfarer (0:2). :cry::mad::tongue: My deck list is some posts above. Sure I can play more Tribal love sideboard but then combo is an autoloss adn we all know that Engineered Plague isn't the big deal.

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

OK that's it for me with this deck. I played 2 tournaments today and went 1:3 and 1:4. Everybody and his mother plays Vial and / or Tribal. My matchups were first tourney: Aggro Elves (0:2), Zoo (1:2) really close but unlucky 3rd game, Dragon Stompy (0:2) 2x first turn Bloodmoon, thx man. Second tourney: Goblins (1:2), Aggro Elves (1:2), Glimpse of Nature Combo Elves (1:2), Strange Elves with Omnath (2:1), Fish with Vial and Weathered Wayfarer (0:2). :cry::mad::tongue: My deck list is some posts above. Sure I can play more Tribal love sideboard but then combo is an autoloss adn we all know that Engineered Plague isn't the big deal.

Have you ever missed the 5th Fetchland instead of the Castle or the 6th Cycling-land instead of the Bog? What was your experience with the manabase overall?

[FoolofaTook]

He played Elves 4 times in 9 matches, 2 Vial decks and Dragon Stompy. That's like 3-4 if you're lucky and he was not. He just hit a very bad meta for the deck. I do not play this deck without 1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale at this point because you need to have an all-in sweeper possibility to combat the all-in tribal rushes. Elves in particular is helped by Tabernacle but you have to find it quick or it won't matter.

[Nekrataal]

Yeah sure, the meta was a desaster ;) I played 3 Elves decks in a row, each one different, so my boarding plan sometimes was play Trinisphere (against Combo Variants) or play extirpate ( to reduce mana elves or lords or Taigas). But if that is the Meta than it was a bad call to play the deck. Even with a SB more tuned to creature hordes it woul dhave turned ou 3-4 at best as you say.
I never missed the 6th cycling land since in most situation where I could use cycling extensively enough of the appropriate lands were present. However the Bog was always useless so it would have been better anyway if I had played a Fetchland or a Cycling land. Personally I would tend to play more Fetchlands because I indeed did miss the possibility to fetch on W in 1 or 2 games. Funny enough, most games I won through Castle or Harvest. Castle simply can make a bunch of flying 3/4 token every round that can function as a good blocker (4 toughness) and still evade enemy creatures. These three points (making multiples, 4 toughness, flying) are very positive compared to Gigapede which dies in every combat (blocking/attacking). Worm Harvest is THE late game solution with the most power to block multiple creatures and/or win in 1-2 turns.

[Antonius]

Elves have about eight creatures that counter tabernacle by turning sideways. It won't save you in that matchup.

[FoolofaTook]

It'll slow them down dramatically and prevent them from progressing in the game. If they have to tap the mana elves to keep them alive then they by definition cannot develop the position that turns into over-run.

Between Swords to Plowshares, Innocent Blood and Smallpox you have enough removal to maintain the very early turns. The problem is that your solutions are one shots and the elves will quickly build back up and over-run you. The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale removes their mana advantage, and if you have successfully obliterated their somewhat limited land base they wind up tapping their creatures to save themselves and they go into lockdown with very little ability to develop in the mid game. The fact that The Tabernacle is not a 3cc or 4cc spell like most sweeper/creature locking devices just makes it better. You can get away with dropping it on turn 2 if you had a Mox Diamond in the opening hand.

The problem is finding it in time, because Elves does not give you much time to scramble out of trouble.

[Oiolosse]

brot ohne Kruste,

my first post about anything magic goes to you..I have played since tempest with just little break at times due to school, work, relationships and all that other general life stuff that gets in the way. BUT. I have never been enticed to the point of registering and posting, although from time to time I do read what you fine fellas have to say. So thank you! Your deck idea has inspired me to play legacy! I have followed this thread and am finally choosing to be an active participant (tautology) in the formulation of magical ideas (and another). I have two shitty draft decks in front of me waiting to be used as proxies, but before the true testing let me ask y'alll's advice..

What about using dark depths/hexmage combo? just one depths of course and 1-2 hexmages..overall this seems like an ueberally narrow approach, but the hexmages wouldnt be totally dead...chalice, EE, planeswalkers, tangle wire (yes, because it's my meta..bc I play it), vial, chump blocker, (it is] a 2/1 firststriker, and finally darkdepths.

If they deal with the token, then stronghold the hexmage.

This led me to think that maybe, just maybe dark depths, hexmage, stronghold and eternal witness take up precious space, space that could be filled with living wish! you would not have to run all that crap maindeck (expect maybe the hexmage, which I particularly like). You could also find tabernacky, maze of ith, or other utility lands/creatures.

Please point out all flaws you see in this reasoning. I will build the deck tonight..the only thing I can test it on is a tier 2 lockdown style deck (winter orb, tangle wire, opposition--U/G control lock--I plan to post the deck tomorrow, please check it out and critique) and dragon reanimator (which I can amp up if need be with proxies)

Once again I thank this community for its non-trolling and critical assessment of this dudes killer list of hate.

[Nekrataal]

The main deck is crammed, the SB is crammed with useful and reasonable stuff. There are very few slots that can be messed with imho, so you can choose not to play Entomb, play -1 creature removal or just 3 LftL but that's about it. The SB contains about 9 must have cards and 6 variable slots that can be assembled to improve the Combo/Burn or the Tribal/Creature matchups. So you see that there is not much space for either a wish board, a 2 card combo like Hexmage / Depth or a utility combo like Stronghold / Witness. All these options share the disadvantage that with the wrong card in the GY it is just dead (Hexmage, Witness). To make all the options work properly you have to change to many cards and lower the decks effectiveness. I have tried Stronghold/Witness in a former Bg build and it wasnt worth it most of the times. IT is incredibebly slow and hard to assemble (means you cannot count on it).

However I see value in Tabernacle and if I would own one I would play it in a Tribal/Creature heavy meta sideboard.

[FoolofaTook]

One quandary that The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale poses is how to get it into play quickly when you need it. You really don't want it in your opening hand until you know the opponent is playing creatures unless you also have a Mox Diamond, however if the opponent is playing tribal swarm you need it right away - within a couple of turns or so, since turn 4 is the win turn for good tribal swarm.

There are only three tutor methods that I see as fast enough to get a Tabernacle in play on your third turn:

1. Entomb would let us put Tabernacle in the graveyard and then if we have Life from the Loam we can dig it out and play it on turn 3, or even turn 2 if we also had a Mox Diamond at the start. Entomb doubles as a tutor for LftL, disruption and the wincons but it requires LftL to work.

Cons: Requires another card to get Tabernacle into play.

2. Living Wish would allow us to tutor Tabernacle from the sideboard and play it on turn 2 with a Mox Diamond or turn 3 without. Living Wish could also go get other potential options like Bojuka Bog, Maze of Ith, Cabal Pit, Ghost Quarter, Glacial Chasm and Nomad Stadium. It could also go get a Gigapede if we decided to put one in the sideboard to speed things up a bit on the win.

Cons: Reduces sideboard space slightly, probably by 2 cards (Bojuka Bogs already in sideboard.) Does not advance the main theme of the deck unless Ghost Quarter is included as a tutorable. Slows the deck a little.

3. Crop Rotation would let us turn any land into The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. In order to make this work as an option we'd need to have other lands that we wanted to put in play also, because the cost involved is way out of proportion to the need to get Tabernacle in play against the average deck we face. Bojuka Bog and maybe Maze of Ith are the only cards that I could see in addition to Tabernacle that would be worth main decking to use with Crop Rotation.

Cons: Too narrow and too costly except in a meta defined heavily by tribal and dredge.

Entomb is the best answer since it has the widest range of uses. Living Wish would be worth exploring as an option in a control dominated meta. Crop Rotation doesn't really make the cut.

[nodahero]

So I have been queitly playing with this deck in local legacy Tournies and so far I have had excellent results.

I am planning on piloting this at the 10k in Indy this weekend. I was wondering if I am the only person that still plays this and if anyone can provide a good argument as to why I should not play this deck.

The only matchup that seems obviously bad is the combo matchup... but every deck has a bad matchup. Does anyone have any ideas how to shell up this weakness?

My current list is:
// Lands
4 Barren Moor
1 Cabal Pit
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Polluted Delta
3 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
2 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs

// Creatures
1 Gigapede

// Spells
1 Raven's Crime
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Innocent Blood
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Mox Diamond
1 Worm Harvest
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Vindicate
3 Life from the Loam
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
2 Entomb

My side is:
2 Luminarch Ascension
2 COP: Red
2 Story Circle
2 World Queller
1 Syphon Life
3 Choke
1 Path to Exile
2 Innocent Blood

The one thing that has seemed really weak in my board was Choke... I have yet to used it. The other card that seems mildy weak is Story Circle but I have yet to find a better catch all against Merfolk or other random aggro decks.

[FoolofaTook]

The problem against Storm combo is that it's just such a small part of the meta. Highly effective but very underplayed. So how many slots do you want to devote in the sideboard to dealing with it? I have 1 Root Maze main and then I have 4 Trinisphere and 2 Extirpate in the sideboard. It's still a bad matchup but it's a bit more livable after sideboard. Creature removal comes out, Trinisphere and Extirpate come in and then I just hope Extirpate is not a total blank if I'm holding it when they go off. The reason for Extirpate instead of something more effective is that the Loam mirror is not good for us a lot of the time and being able to Extirpate Life from the Loam is a big winner in the mirror.

[nodahero]

I totally agree with everything you said. I am prolly a little jumpy about combo because I love playing combo like no other. I was taught Legacy with combo.

Honestly I am not really sure how afraid it I should be. Right now I am thinking of looking at more general hate which will be useful against multiple decks and may "accidentally" have splash power against storm.

What is your current board?

I am really thinking about running Root Maze since it is solid against Petal, Chrome Mox, and any lands.

[FoolofaTook]

Current sideboard is 4 Trinisphere, 2 Extirpate, 4 Leyline of the Void, 1 Bojuka Bog, 1 Raven's Crime, 1 Innocent Blood, 2 Sadistic Sacrament. I do not run extra Root Mazes in the sideboard it's just the 1 main deck.

There's a lot of overlap in the sideboard against things like Storm and Dredge and different ways to go against them. Neither matchup is very strong though even with all the choices. Against a lot of the meta I barely sideboard though. I'll bring in Sadistic Sacrament against control decks with just a few wincons more often than against Storm unless I know it's somebody playing DDFT or something like that which is going to mess around for 5 turns and then go off. I have 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrall Vale main deck and with Entomb to go find it it's pretty reliable against tribal swarm, which is why I don't have the usual creature sweepers. I have thought about a red splash for Firespout but really the only matchup it would improve is Merfolk, the deck pretty much dominates most creature based strategies as it is.

[Oiolosse]

@nodahero -- It's good to see that others are still giving this deck a shot. I agree with 6 cycling lands, I ran 5 and it proved to be too few. I run Nantuko Monastery instead of cabal pit. I find a 4/4 firststriker as and if not more relevant. I just run four fetches (verdant's). I find that two scrublands weren't enough white so I run three total now, it seems give more consistant StP'ing. Which is another I run three of, I MD extirpate. It is terribly useful..always. You don't have to nab the combo piece, take their goyfs and lightning helix' and their lords and their loams and whatever you want. Shit, you even get to see their hand! I have been thinking of running two for this reason (as I run 3 innocent bloods).

cards that I have been experimenting with..gemstone mine. I know that you cannot fetch it, but it is wonderful and can be loamed if need be. Also, I have been testing against a very annoying lockdown style deck and EE just wasn't cutting it. I have been testing PDeed and so far it has proved to be better. Though if you expect zoo then I'd say EE is the way to go.

Good luck and keep us updated!

[nodahero]

I am really pathetic... I suck at keeping my mind made up about what to play. I was all set to play this then I just did 5 games against zoo and won 2 on the draw. The play is alot better though.

Would you keep this hand?
Tanquil Thicket
Barren Moor
Swords
EE
Gigapede
Smallpox
Vindicate

I opted out of it but I am wondering if that wasn't wrong. The zoo matchup seems like a battle of card advantage...

[Oiolosse]

Absolutely not. If you cannot StP or innocent blood first turn, too bad. If you cannot at least sinkhole, smallpox or EE second turn (esp on the draw) then you need to mull. Disruption should be rampant and continuous to establish control.

[nodahero]

What are your thoughts on adding an additional land to the deck? The list I am running is up top. I am in agreement that the deck needs at least one additional white mana and it seems like the deck might be a hair low. The other thing I was contemplating was adding the fourth Top. So far that card has rarely disappointed at all. If I added the fourth top what would you cut?

To me it seems like the options are: Add a 61st card (land) and cut one spell (unknown for Top)
Cut a Diamond for an additional land and then don't add top
Cut Diamond for Top
Add top as the 61st card.

Thoughts?

[FoolofaTook]

What are your thoughts on adding an additional land to the deck? The list I am running is up top. I am in agreement that the deck needs at least one additional white mana and it seems like the deck might be a hair low. The other thing I was contemplating was adding the fourth Top. So far that card has rarely disappointed at all. If I added the fourth top what would you cut?

To me it seems like the options are: Add a 61st card (land) and cut one spell (unknown for Top)
Cut a Diamond for an additional land and then don't add top
Cut Diamond for Top
Add top as the 61st card.

Thoughts?

You could take out Raven's Crime for another fetch maybe, but that would make Entomb a bit less valuable also. You could also just take out an Entomb for a fetch. 24+4 seems to be a sweet spot for the deck though. 61 cards is only really defensible in a strange exotic deck that nobody who doesn't play it understands. As soon as they understand it becomes indefensible anyway. ;)

3 Tops also seems to be a sweet spot. 2 Tops is almost never good between the hand, the board and the top 3, you really want to avoid that situation.

[nodahero]

I guess my beef/fear is that if I was playing to beat the decks that did well at Madrid I would play a deck like Canadian/Tempo thresh. That deck tears us a new ass hole like no other I would wager. There deck can easily play off of 1 land and if they run Mancer they could in theory burn us out. They can certainly keep us from 5 mana. That feet is actually fairly easy.

I will think on it. If I don't play this I will play Tempo thresh, UW Tempo, or Zoo... I have never actually played zoo in a tournament except for extended.

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

Hi nodahero,

nice to see that you like the deck :). How were your results on the tournaments and against which decks you had to play?

Playing 25 lands could be good, I haven't tested it yet with the current version.

Running the 4th Top is hard. I think 3 is the right number because if you want to run 4, you have to cut a good card and the chance of having 2 Tops the same time is higher.

To the CanadianThresh-MU: my experience is that this MU quite positive for us, after boarding even more (Extirpate on Tropical is game).

[nodahero]

I don't have access to my match notes ATM as I am getting ready to leave and they are packed in my pack. It seems from personal expierience that the the only matches where I struggle are those where I miss the third land drop. Awkwardly eniough that happens a fair bit.

What do you guys think are the best match ups and the worst?

Personally it seems like:
Zoo is dependent on who plays first
Merfolk pre-board has never beaten me although I have been lucky to always have an EE for vial... Post board I would say the match up slides in their favor a hair.
Reanimator seems like a really easy match although I have yet to actually test it. I swaped adjusted the point removal suite to 4 StP and 2 Innocent Blood to avoid Ioona on black rapping us. Plus with 4 Smallpox and still 2 Innocent blood the Leviathin shouldnt be much of a problem.
NOthresh seems like an OK matchup because they will be hard pressed to resolve a NO or to maintain ground superiorty through the long game.

CBalanceTop and combo decks seem like a very very bad matchup. From experience combo is and my guess on CBalanceTop is due to their insane ability to generate long term card advantage. They only realisticly need access to 2 mana per turn to have a solid chance of beating us.

[jazzykat]

With the suggestions for a slight modification in the creature removal package by nodahero I think this deck is in a better position now than ever given the ascension of reanimator.

The biggest issues I see are that storm combo can blow us out. However, while we play dead cards we also play very relevant cards and them not having any land and having to discard is still relevant. We can play sphere of resistance in the board vs. them and I imagine cause them to have a pretty rotten day.

I also see that the CB/Top lock is problematic, but when is it NOT?

What I'm a bit confused with is the MASSIVE variety in the sideboards. While the MD seems to be really tamped down sideboard slots seem to be all over the place.

Would a few of the pilots please put up their lists and discuss their more non-standard choices. I'm playing a months old list from Brot Ohne Krust's opening post and still tearing people new assholes on MWS.

[jazzykat]

With the suggestions for a slight modification in the creature removal package by nodahero I think this deck is in a better position now than ever given the ascension of reanimator.

The biggest issues I see are that storm combo can blow us out. However, while we play dead cards we also play very relevant cards and them not having any land and having to discard is still relevant. We can play sphere of resistance in the board vs. them and I imagine cause them to have a pretty rotten day.

I also see that the CB/Top lock is problematic, but when is it NOT?

What I'm a bit confused with is the MASSIVE variety in the sideboards. While the MD seems to be really tamped down sideboard slots seem to be all over the place.

Would a few of the pilots please put up their lists and discuss their more non-standard choices. I'm playing a months old list from Brot Ohne Krust's opening post and still tearing people new assholes on MWS.

[FoolofaTook]

I'm playing 4 Trinisphere against storm combo, burn, some forms of low land dredge, Zoo if I somehow lost game 1 and am on the play - Trinis come back out when I go back on the draw game 3, whenever I think I can shut down a deck by holding it under 3 land, etc. I have 2 Extirpate for Dredge and the Loam mirror mainly, although I bet I put them in against Reanimator too when I face it. 4 Leyline of the Void and 1 Bojuka Bog against Dredge and Loam (you can tell what scares me when I'm running this deck.) 1 Raven's Crime so I can slow play if I need to and have a way to strip their hand midgame before I put something necessary in the graveyard. 1 Innocent Blood to shore up the fast aggro matchups, although it will probably go in against Reanimator also. 2 Sadistic Sacrament to go get Elspeth, Ajani Vengeant and a few other control bombs and put the game away, I'll also tune these in against some storm combo, especially if they're not playing Burning Wish.

The matchup that gets left out in the cold is Merfolk and I just play and pray against them. They can either stop the disruption early in which case they win, or they can't in which case I do.

[nodahero]

@ Jazzykat:
My current list is still:
// Lands
4 Barren Moor
1 Cabal Pit
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Polluted Delta
3 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
2 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs

// Creatures
1 Gigapede

// Spells
1 Raven's Crime
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Innocent Blood
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Mox Diamond
1 Worm Harvest
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Vindicate
3 Life from the Loam
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
2 Entomb

My side is:
2 Luminarch Ascension--- I have been testing this to decent success as a solution against slower control lists which fail to put tempo on us not to mention it is very useful post board when our opponents bring in grave hate and would otherwise take away our kill conditions
2 COP: Red---- I have been using this as a solution to Progenitus and burn.
2 Story Circle---- This is primarily here as a catch all. I have brought it in for Green agaisnt Zoo and U agaisnt the Folk.
2 World Queller--- Again another anti-grave strategy I have tested. This guy has been very strong actually. He keeps up the game plan of LD when needed. He can also systematicaly take out pesky artifacts and enchatments when desired.
1 Syphon Life---- Merely an additonal threat primarily against Mono-red burn
3 Choke---- I loath merfolk and countertop....
1 Path to Exile---- You never know when a little more removal is handy. I typcally use it and the IBs agaisnt reanimation lists.
2 Innocent Blood

[jazzykat]

Thanks for the response. I take one major issue with your board, if they play Reanimator_Iona it will probably be on black. Your IB's will most likely be dead. Is there any other matchup you bring in, IB?

[nodahero]

I often have also seen myself brining it in against Merfolk and burn light Zoo matchups. All to often I have noticed the deck start to falter when it does nothing but rip LD spells as opposed to a mix of spells... I wish we could run 8 Smallpox...

[jazzykat]

With Tendrils decks weakened is it time to take this deck out and start terrorizing the meta again? Has anyone considered trying to jam in 4 blood ghasts? Given the loam/dredge and frequent killing of creatures on the board it seems that they would be quite dangerous and would actually speed you up letting you win EVEN if there was a CB lock (assuming they don't have too many creatures as well).

[Oiolosse]

they won't flip a 5cc anyway for your insect or wurm. I think the deck can be played as is just fine. The removal suite is just super super fun.

[dorsch]

Lets face it: When are Bloodghasts a decent win condition?
If the opponent has NO creatures in play,we get the loam engine going and opponent is not playing white. In addition to all this: it can't even block.
Sounds like win-more to me. I also don't like the fact that he suddenly has targets for his swords to plowshares/path to exiles again.
CB isn't that dangerous with 4 Vindicate and some Engineered Esplosives/Pernicious Deed main and Krosan Grip out of sb.
I am looking at that new skeleton from M11.


Reassembling Skeleton 1b
Creature - Skeleton Warrior Uncommon
1{B}: Return Reassembling Skeleton from your graveyard to the battlefield tapped.
1/1

[nodahero]

I havn't spent much time testing this as of late. Sadly when I am away from college there is next to zero legacy for me to play. (MWS dosn't qualify for legacy, it is more like shooting fish in a barrel)

Personally I do not think Bloodghast is remotely worth inclusion. I tried it in the beginning but I have never found a GOOD reason to include it. Harvest and Pede have always sufficed as a win condition for me.

Perhaps my previous testing missed something but in what scenario is the Bloodghast NEEDED. I realize it does allow for random quicker wins since 5 mana is not needed however I beleive it is safe to say you will still eventually grind out those wins as long as it isn't game 3 with time running low.

PS Reasembling skeletons is junk... That card is almost strictly worse than Bloodghast. Essentially if you look at the kill conditions as a contiunum it would look as such:

Cheap<------Bloodghast-------Reassembling Skeletons----------------------------Pede and Harvest> Expensive
Efficient< Harvest-------Pede-------------------------------------Bloodghast---------------Reassembling Skeletons> Inefficient

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

I am currently testing a little different version using red instead of white. I do know burning wish has it's weaknesses by being slow but it can grab a firespout from the sb just in time, it can get you loam and it can get you worm harvest in case your copy got gy hated. It costs only one mana more then entomb and gives no card disadvantage.
The other red card md I'm testing is devastating dreams. They are a little mana intensive and you need loam to be at advantage after they resolve. On the other hand DD hates aggro very effectively and gets the mana denial job done if your opponent got some fetches lying around or is flooded.

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [ON] Barren Moor
4 [B] Bayou
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [B] Badlands
2 [ON] Forgotten Cave
1 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
1 [OD] Cabal Pit

// Creatures
1 [ON] Gigapede

// Spells
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam
1 [EVE] Raven's Crime
3 [JU] Burning Wish
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [B] Sinkhole
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [EVE] Worm Harvest
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
4 [TSP] Smallpox
3 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 1 [TO] Devastating Dreams
SB: 1 [EVE] Worm Harvest
SB: 1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 1 [EVE] Syphon Life
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
(did not began serious work on the sb, currently testing red vs white)

What do you think?

[edit]I found DD very effective against a broad range of decks, innocent blood and smallpox usually can hold aggro at bay until dreams explode wiping the board. It is probably a meta call for dreams suck if countered. Netherspirit was just inferior to another removal spell so I took him out. Maelstrom pulse is a decent replacement for vindicate.

[Alexeezay]

just tested this helldozer version and went 3-0 against GW Survival,Faeriestalker and BGW Rock:
Mainboard (60):
Lands (27)
4x Swamp
1x Forest
3x Barren Moor
1x Bojuka Bog
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Bayou
3x Scrubland
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Volrath's Stronghold
2x Cabal Coffers
4x Wasteland

Spells/permanents (26)
4x Mox Diamond
4x Sinkhole
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Vindicate
3x Life from the Loam
2x Crucible of Worlds
2x Innocent Blood
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Worm Harvest

Creatures (7)
4x Helldozer
2x Gigapede
1x Eternal Witness

Sideboard (15):
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Engineered Plague
4x Chalice of the Void
2x Duress
2x Tormod's Crypt

Too many lands?Cabal Coffers=Fail, or good with helldozer and worm harvest? Just comment and make suggestions. I'm just trying the deck out

[Oiolosse]

just tested this helldozer version and went 3-0 against GW Survival,Faeriestalker and BGW Rock:
Mainboard (60):
Lands (27)
4x Swamp
1x Forest
3x Barren Moor
1x Bojuka Bog
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Bayou
3x Scrubland
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Volrath's Stronghold
2x Cabal Coffers
4x Wasteland

Spells/permanents (26)
4x Mox Diamond
4x Sinkhole
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Vindicate
3x Life from the Loam
2x Crucible of Worlds
2x Innocent Blood
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Worm Harvest

Creatures (7)
4x Helldozer
2x Gigapede
1x Eternal Witness

Sideboard (15):
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Engineered Plague
4x Chalice of the Void
2x Duress
2x Tormod's Crypt

Too many lands?Cabal Coffers=Fail, or good with helldozer and worm harvest? Just comment and make suggestions. I'm just trying the deck out

Crucibles seem bad. You run 3 loam as it is. You have no way to tutor for crucible and if it hits the yard you have to rely on your sole Witness.

Worm Harvest, Gigapede AND Helldozer? Seems overkill.

I have found that this deck runs like a very reactive control deck with a (in my playstyle) heavy loam component. You love that card in here. It is your only draw engine first off and you run just 3 cycle lands. In my experience 6 at the minimum is the way to go. You pitch them to Mox Diamond and Smallpox (incredible) alot of the times in the early game anyway. Then mid/late game it provides stellar card draw.
You just have just two slots at one mana for creature removal (and I guess EE if you want to count that). Is this because the Chalices in the board? You do run the 'Dozers, Witness and more gigapedes so I guess you have a good reason for not too many sac effects.

If you want to keep the Helldozers then I suggest visiting that thread. They could better help you out.

[jandax]

I am currently testing a little different version using red instead of white. I do know burning wish has it's weaknesses by being slow but it can grab a firespout from the sb just in time, it can get you loam and it can get you worm harvest in case your copy got gy hated. It costs only one mana more then entomb and gives no card disadvantage.
The other red card md I'm testing is devastating dreams. They are a little mana intensive and you need loam to be at advantage after they resolve. On the other hand DD hates aggro very effectively and gets the mana denial job done if your opponent got some fetches lying around or is flooded.

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [ON] Barren Moor
4 [B] Bayou
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [B] Badlands
2 [ON] Forgotten Cave
1 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
1 [OD] Cabal Pit

// Creatures
1 [ON] Gigapede

// Spells
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam
1 [EVE] Raven's Crime
3 [JU] Burning Wish
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [B] Sinkhole
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [EVE] Worm Harvest
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
4 [TSP] Smallpox
3 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 1 [TO] Devastating Dreams
SB: 1 [EVE] Worm Harvest
SB: 1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 1 [EVE] Syphon Life
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
(did not began serious work on the sb, currently testing red vs white)

What do you think?

[edit]I found DD very effective against a broad range of decks, innocent blood and smallpox usually can hold aggro at bay until dreams explode wiping the board. It is probably a meta call for dreams suck if countered. Netherspirit was just inferior to another removal spell so I took him out. Maelstrom pulse is a decent replacement for vindicate.

Try a fourth Burning Wish over the fourth Innocent Blood and move it to the board in place of an Extirpate. Right now, you can't tutor for an out to Emrakul or No-Pro. Otherwise, it's still okay, either card by themselves.


Otherwise, have you tried Chalice? It comes across as a fine threat for lots of decks even if you have spells in the 1/2cc range. But maybe it's better suited in agro-loam

[Maëlig]

OK, maybe I'm missing smt because I have to admit I'm not very familiar with the deck, but why is nobody playing ghostly prison in the board? It seems to fit the approach of the deck nicely and it would help in MUs where smallpox and innocent blood are not that good. It could easily replace engineered plague which I have found to be a bit meh lately, but can also be sided in when plague would be useless, eg vs VV madness.

[Greenpoe]

Does anyone still play this deck? It's a blast to play. Entomb is a perfect fit for this deck, even though 90% of the time I just grab Loam, you can grab a cycling land, cabal pit, or your win-condition. I play with Leyline of Sanctity to fight Jace, Crypt and Relic. Since Survival Vengevine got nuked, this deck should do better. I put 1 Stinkweed Imp in the board for decks not running white. Dredge into him, or use him to dredge into Loam/Gigapede/Worm Harvest. Tutorable, reccurrent with deathtouch and flying? What's not to love?

[nodahero]

I havn't played this deck in some time... I got hooked on GBW Retainer survival after Chapin used it at the GP...

As for Ghostly Prision, it may actually be a very good option right now. Originally it wasn't that useful because so much of the meta was play threat and win... not drop THREATS and win.

You will have to test it and see. Good luck.

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

Try a fourth Burning Wish over the fourth Innocent Blood and move it to the board in place of an Extirpate. Right now, you can't tutor for an out to Emrakul or No-Pro. Otherwise, it's still okay, either card by themselves.


Otherwise, have you tried Chalice? It comes across as a fine threat for lots of decks even if you have spells in the 1/2cc range. But maybe it's better suited in agro-loam

I tried a fourth burning wish, but I found burning wish to be slow at times, you really never want 2 in your opening hand. NO-pro and emrakul can be handled by 8 md cards, that's fair enough considering those decks have few other creatures to be hit by smallpox or innocent blood.
Sneak attack will obviously screw you though :wink:

Chalice could be good, it would produce dead innocent bloods though. Since the deck need cheap answers to creatures it's not really an option.



Does anyone still play this deck? It's a blast to play. Entomb is a perfect fit for this deck, even though 90% of the time I just grab Loam, you can grab a cycling land, cabal pit, or your win-condition. I play with Leyline of Sanctity to fight Jace, Crypt and Relic. Since Survival Vengevine got nuked, this deck should do better. I put 1 Stinkweed Imp in the board for decks not running white. Dredge into him, or use him to dredge into Loam/Gigapede/Worm Harvest. Tutorable, reccurrent with deathtouch and flying? What's not to love?


What's not to love about stinkweed imp?

1. useless as clock, we will run out of cards before he can finish the game
2. we have too few discard outlets to use him (only smallpox)
3. we don't need dredge to find the cards we want, rather play entomb (finds you win condition or loam just faster and cheaper)
4. will eat StoP or PtE

If you want to play a creature, I'd suggest grave-shell scarab. He's really the best option we have.
Why is he superior to gigapede? gigapede can be stopped by any crature, since most our creature hate kills one on both sides, a creature with more then 1 toughness is well worth it plus its more resilient to gy hate.


I still play this deck from time to time on MWS (but with red for DD to handle aggro).
It has some serious problems though: vial, combo, gy hate, burn. That's quite a brunch of the legacy meta.

[Greenpoe]

You're dismissing Stinkweed Imp too easily. I'm not sure if he's worth playing in the board (definitely not maindeck because of StP), but I often found myself wishing it could tutor for removal, and the only options there are Stinkweed or Carrionette. Grave-shell scarab has no shroud and only 4 power. Shroud is important for a win-con, since it saves it from removal and Jace. I think playing a the 3rd Entomb might be worthwhile, since if you don't draw Entomb/Gigapede/Worm Harvest, it can just be too slow and lose control.

[Claymore]

Trisomy Depths, anyone? I'm gonna take a look at it.

Marit Syndrome, 21 Depths, all sorts of fun names to explore!

For real though, with mainboard Innocent Bloods, Smallpoxes, and Liliana this deck is True-Name Delver's nightmare. Add in Swords for more creature removal and then Loam + Wasteland along with Vindicates, plus Abrupt Decay and Deeds to crush any offensive, I think Trisomy 21 is well positioned for a comeback.

[amalek0]

Trisomy Depths, anyone? I'm gonna take a look at it.

Marit Syndrome, 21 Depths, all sorts of fun names to explore!

For real though, with mainboard Innocent Bloods, Smallpoxes, and Liliana this deck is True-Name Delver's nightmare. Add in Swords for more creature removal and then Loam + Wasteland along with Vindicates, plus Abrupt Decay and Deeds to crush any offensive, I think Trisomy 21 is well positioned for a comeback.

you mean... jund depths? see the list that Kennen Haas used a few months back, or Kurt Spiess before that.

[Claymore]

Yes, I've built Jund Depths but this could be another variant that uses an old-school BGW Loam shell but includes more land control to fight a meta from a different angle. Jund Depths is also highly graveyard dependent (as is this of course), so having White makes an Enlightened Tutor for Helm much easier.

Also I didn't realize this was in Established when I necroed it, so my bad there.