[EDH] Vorosh, the Dredgenator

[Aggro_zombies]

This idea struck my fancy a while ago, but I've been having some issues implementing it. Basically, I'm trying to build an Ichorid-style dredge deck using Vorosh as the general (though I'm open to going five-color if there are sufficient benefits to doing so).

General: Vorosh, the Hunter


1 Bad River
1 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Terramorphic Expanse
3 Island
5 Swamp
7 Forest
1 Underground Sea
1 Watery Grave
1 Tropical Island
1 Breeding Pool
1 Bayou
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Barren Moor
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Cabal Pit
1 High Market
1 Vesuva
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wasteland

1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Darkblast
1 Golgari Thug
1 Life from the Loam
1 Stinkweed Imp
1 Shambling Shell
1 Golgari Grave-Troll

1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Shriekmaw
1 Executioner's Capsule
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Putrefy
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Barter in Blood
1 Damnation

1 Drowned Rusalka
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Trinket Mage
1 Mulldrifter
1 Entomb
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Sylvan Library
1 Windfall

1 Golgari Guildmage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Body Double
1 Mnemonic Wall
1 Genesis
1 Nostalgic Dreams
1 Regrowth
1 Corpse Dance
1 Dread Return

1 Spore Frog
1 Spike Feeder
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Wonder
1 Mindslicer
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Primal Command

1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Grim Poppet
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Stormtide Leviathan
1 Terastodon
1 It That Betrays
1 Worm Harvest

1 Devoted Druid
1 Hermit Druid
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Urborg Elf
1 Krosan Tusker
1 Sol Ring
1 Rampant Growth
1 Far Wanderings
1 Harrow


Basically, the deck wants to dump itself into the graveyard and use that as its "hand." Because of this, it's got numerous dredge and mill cards, as well as cards that can be played out of the graveyard, or can recur things from it.

Any and all help would be appreciated.

Current as of 18 - xii - 2010.

[ddt15]

I also run Vorosh
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15910 but in a control shell.
I also run Tog/Loam in mine. I think the deck is better with a control shell. Survival of the Fittest would be really good in your deck, it will allow you to tutor up several dredgers executing the game plan faster. Maybe some equipments to make your big guys untargetable or give em double strike.

[Shabbaman]

Sylvan library is great with dredge. Chains of mephistopheles is also great with dredge.

[keys]

You have too many things going on. The EDH staples like Damnation and Body Double aren't going to help your dredge plan. Where's your draw? Deep Analysis? Careful Study? Your good dredgers? Grave-Shell Scarab?

[ddt15]

You might want to run a Crystal Shard & Time Warp, also very good cards on their own.

Then you if you have demonic tutor:
Demonic Tutor -> Eternal Witness
Eternal Witness -> Demonic Tutor
Demonic Tutor -> Crystal Shard, bounce Eternal Witness
Eternal Witness -> Demonic Tutor
Demonic Tutor -> Time Warp
Win :tongue:

Super lame but takes a boatload of mana to pull off. You can recur anything but Time Warp seems to most logical choice.

[Bryant Cook]

Look at the type 2 reanimator/dredge/mill yourself deck. It's based on unearth and that songs of the damned land.

[Aggro_zombies]

Yeah, I realized there's a bunch of things missing after I put the list up. For one thing, Genesis is infinitely better than Oversold Cemetery, and Survival is a really good idea. Grave-Shell Scarab is also a no-brainer, not sure how I missed that one. Crypt is a good suggestion (thanks Bryan), and I'll probably be adding a couple big fat dorks for reanimation purposes: stuff like Woodfall Primus and the 7/11 Serpent guy from Conflux.

I do need to cut a bunch of stuff out for artifact acceleration, though. The deck is kind of slow and mana-hungry.

Damnation is in there because every deck in EDH needs to have some board control element (unless its exclusive goal is to combo out by turn five or so). This deck doesn't really have anything to combo out into, so it can't just ignore the board. However, cards like Innocent Blood and Barter in Blood (and the 3/1 Zombie Innocent Blood guy) are probably good additions here because I can break the symmetry with recursion.

I'll put an updated list up tomorrow.

[94teen]

I think 5 color is going to end up being better for the deck. You get some of these:

Gamble
Wheel of Fortune
Recoup
Squee
Burning Inquiry
Book Burning
Control of the Court
Drastic Revelation
Goblin Lore
Anger


Enlightened Tutor
Idyllic Tutor
Academy Rector


Honestly, I'd like to see the deck tutor up Loam or Survival ASAP and start dredging up a storm, and I think the additional tutors/digging would help with that.

I also feel like Setting up Loam/Crucible + Cephalid Coliseum is pretty awesome for a deck like this.

Are you somehow opposed to proxying a Bazaar of Baghdad?

[Aggro_zombies]

Bumping because I updated the OP list. There's more draw power at the expense of some board control and some creatures. The creature base is also a little more streamlined and takes a cue from Dredge lists in Extended.

[AngryTroll]

1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Golgari Signet
1 Dimir Signet
1 Simic Signet
1 Coalition Relic


I'd cut all four relics for some combination of Rampant Growth, Into the North, Farseek, Nature's Lore, Three Visits, and Edge of Autumn. Farseek and Edge of Autumn are probably the worst of those, but Edge will let you dredge for free at instant speed. Kodama's Reach is also probably worth a slot.

I prefer Darksteel Ingot over Coalition Relic, but Ingot doesn't get you to six on turn four (which I guess is relevant with a 6cc general). My Signets always end up blown up. It's not always on purpose, but they end up wiped off the board with everyone elses dudes and artifacts.

[Blitzbold]

I am playing both Darksteel Ingot and Coalition Relic in all my 3cc+ EDH-decks. I like the combined fixing and small ramping they provide.

I like Signets for 2-color-decks, but as AngryTroll already pointed out they get blown up quite often.

[Aggro_zombies]

Played this a little tonight, but with a slightly different version than the OP. I couldn't find a couple cards before I left, so I just grabbed some stuff.

Highlight of the evening was winning with Bitter Ordeal (how did I miss that card the first time around?!) against three opponents. I activated Hermit Druid and milled 36 cards before hitting my first basic (I'd fetched a bunch because I followed AngryTroll's suggestion of using land fetch spells over Signets), but in the process I milled Lord of Extinction, Wonder, Bridge from Below, Dread Return, and Bitter Ordeal among others. I then did the following:

Play Krovikan Horror
Sacrifice Eternal Witness to ping an opponent (20 gravestorm)
Sacrifice Druid, Horror, and Mindslicer to flashback Dread Return on Witness (31 gravestorm thanks to discards)
Use Eternal Witness to get back Bitter Ordeal
Play Bitter Ordeal for 32 with copies

I knew what the other guys were playing so I was able to lobotomize every remaining removal spell out of each of their decks. I'd already gotten Genesis into the yard earlier in the game, and a 70+/70+ flying Lord would have popped back on my next turn to begin the one-hit K.O. game.

So, in sum: I'll be looking to make Mindslicer, Windfall, Bitter Ordeal, and land search spells permanent additions.

[Shabbaman]

If Bitter Ordeal only were an instant I'd be in love with the card. If you're looking for card draw, try Syphon Mind instead of Syphon Soul. And have you tried Tortured Existence?

[Aggro_zombies]

If Bitter Ordeal only were an instant I'd be in love with the card. If you're looking for card draw, try Syphon Mind instead of Syphon Soul. And have you tried Tortured Existence?
I don't run Syphon Soul and don't need additional card draw that costs more than two mana.

Tortured Existence is okay, but this deck is actually kind of light on creatures, and I'd prioritize pitching things to Survival over pitching the to Existence, especially with the possibility of Genesis. That said, it might be worthwhile backup if graveyard hate begins to show up around here.

I'm really digging the global Mind Twist effect of Mindslicer. Recurring that card is often game over.

I'll post an updated list tonight when I get off work.

[Shabbaman]

Weird, I must've been looking at a different thread when I wrote that.

[Aggro_zombies]

Weird, I must've been looking at a different thread when I wrote that.
No, I think it's my fault. The first build had it, but I dropped it shortly thereafter and I may have just forgotten to edit it out of the OP.

Soz.

[Anusien]

Would Cephalid Illusionist and some things like Greaves or Shuko be useful in here?

[Aggro_zombies]

Would Cephalid Illusionist and some things like Greaves or Shuko be useful in here?
Greaves would be useful for killing people with Lord of Extinction. Illusionist...I dunno. I don't really have a problem with milling myself - actually, in most cases I have to be careful lest I go overboard and completely deck myself (which has almost happened a couple times now).

I won a five man game with this last Friday. The last opponent left standing was mono-white Sweepers.deck and died to 40+ Worm tokens from two turns' worth of Worm Harvest. Guess he couldn't find a sweeper in time.

[Shabbaman]

I like cards like Greaves and Whispersilk Cloak to keep cards safe. Especially Greaves is nice as it grants haste besides shroud. I'm not sure it's worth it in this deck though. But Greaves and Illusionist go well together :)

Another thing I was wondering: why are you playing Mana Vault over Mana Crypt?

[Aggro_zombies]

I like cards like Greaves and Whispersilk Cloak to keep cards safe. Especially Greaves is nice as it grants haste besides shroud. I'm not sure it's worth it in this deck though. But Greaves and Illusionist go well together :)

Another thing I was wondering: why are you playing Mana Vault over Mana Crypt?
Well, I really don't want to play either of them, but I wanted something fast mana-ish for turn one and Vault stuck out as adding more mana and not randomly Lightning Bolting me.

I'm kind of thinking of dropping it, though. If I did, I'd probably add Top in. The deck can struggle a little bit to set up on mana in the first couple of turns and Top allows me to make more informed decisions over whether to draw or dredge.

[AngryTroll]

Um, find room for Top and a Trinket Mage to fetch it. Possibly even a Fabricate to go with it. Top is that good. How did I miss that earlier?

[Aggro_zombies]

Um, find room for Top and a Trinket Mage to fetch it. Possibly even a Fabricate to go with it. Top is that good. How did I miss that earlier?
Dunno. For a while I didn't have it in because it was kind of worthless with my original plan, which was "dredge every turn." Then I learned how to play dredge and now I want one.

Ichorid seems like it would be kind of fun, if it's like this deck. Then again, I don't like getting hated out of tournaments.

[Shabbaman]

I was looking for a decent replacement for early fast mana and I ended up with a lousy flashback card named deep reconaissance (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=29884) (linked because of it's obscurity). The card sucks every way you look at it, but it got me thinking. Have you considered decent flashback cards like Moment's Peace and Krosan Reclamation?

Top seems a more than solid replacement for mana vault, I agree with that. Nobody likes other people playing top though ;) Another thing I just noticed is that you miss half of the Sylvan Library/Abundance engine. I admit that it doesn't help you dredging, but it's solid.

[Aggro_zombies]

Okay, I fixed the OP list with recent changes and added a bunch of cards that were missing from previous edits. Also, card tags.

One thing I've noticed is that the basic mana ratio is a bit out of whack; probably what I'll end up doing is cutting a Swamp or two for another Island and/or another Forest. Khalni Garden is next on the chopping block after that. I added it because I figured the token could block in the early game, but I don't have many ways to take advantage of it later and the CiPT on the parent land is kind of annoying.

Abundance doesn't really do anything for me here, and I'd rather have Top than Deep Reconnaissance. If it cost less than three mana, I might be interested, but at three mana there's better options (Harrow, Kodama's Reach, Untamed Wilds, etc.).

[Aggro_zombies]

Bumping because of a list update and some questions (well, a question).

I made the following changes:

-1 Magus of the Bazaar
-1 Holistic Wisdom
-1 Bitter Ordeal
-1 Careful Consideration

+1 Sphinx of Lost Truths
+1 Bottle Gnomes
+1 Fleshbag Marauder
+1 Inkwell Leviathan


Sphinx gets the nod over consideration because it basically costs one mana more to leave behind a 3/5 flying body, something that's greatly appreciated. Bitter Ordeal is great when it's useful, but when it's bad, it's horrid. Tired of being Bitterly Disappointed, I've dropped it for Bottle Gnomes, which gain me life (important for a deck as slow as this one can be) and block well in the early to mid-game. The deck also has the Dancing Gnomes combo in it now, for those of you who remember Tempest block constructed. Wisdom never really did anything, so I'm dropping it for a Marauder so I can have an extra removal spell for Survival (and Marauder is pretty sick with Genesis). I'm dropping Magus to make room for Leviathan as part of drive to have better Dread Return options.

That said, this deck is slow but has a lot of inevitability if I live. I think I should add more creatures to help with that, but which ones?

[Aggro_zombies]

OP updated.

This decklist has evolved quite a bit over time to focus specifically on doing two things very well: being innocuous in the early game, and assembling a crushing late game. That usually takes the form of reanimating fat, but can also involve jacking everyone's guys with It That Betrays and recurring Fleshbags, or making 10+ Worms every turn with Worm Harvest and Dakmor Salvage.

Basically, you spend the entire early game ramping and chumping, then spend the midgame dredging, and then spend the late game destroying people. Thanks to the dredge mechanic and the tutors/draw, the deck is very consistent if left relatively unmolested for the first four or five turns. That sounds like a lot, but in a multiplayer game you tend not to have a high enough profile to warrant people going after you, even the ones who know what you're up to; there's always someone doing something more immediately dangerous. People tend to assume they can deal with you later, so they leave you alone until it's way too late, which is awesome.

The deck is now broken down broadly my function:

Lands
Dredgers
Removal
Draw/Tutors
Recursion
Misc. Creatures
Misc. Spells
Ramp/Fixers

I have a lot of basics and ramp because the deck is very mana-hungry, and mass land destruction is absent from the EDH decks around here (although nonbasic hate is not). I also shied away from artifact mana because it's easy to lose it to sweepers, and the deck was very sensitive to losing mana like that; consequently, almost all of my ramp involves making more lands, even though I could be faster if I added more artifact ramp.

[JeroenC]

I've always liked this deck and I might make it (someday. Ever. When I get money. So probably not soon. But I digress.). How sensitive is this deck to cards like, say, Relic of Progenitus or Withered Wretch?
Because even if it is fast, one of my playgroups will have me running into those cards just about every game if the deck is strong enough.

[Aggro_zombies]

I've always liked this deck and I might make it (someday. Ever. When I get money. So probably not soon. But I digress.). How sensitive is this deck to cards like, say, Relic of Progenitus or Withered Wretch?
Because even if it is fast, one of my playgroups will have me running into those cards just about every game if the deck is strong enough.
One-shot effects like Crypt or Relic are fine because you have a lot of redundancy: only Wonder and Worm Harvest are really unique and irreplacable if removed. Continuous effects like Wretch or Planar Void are worse for you, but the deck is built so that you always have the option of playing as a "normal" control/ramp deck. If there's a lot of graveyard hate, you can always run Trinket Mage and a Pithing Needle.

[mossivo1986]

sylvan library much?

[Aggro_zombies]

sylvan library much?
Probably going in over either Scroll Rack or Magus of the Bazaar. I'm leaning towards the latter of those two.

Recent updates:

-1 Bottle Gnomes
-1 Life/Death
-1 Smallpox
-1 Bojuka Bog

+1 Oblivion Stone
+1 Dryad Arbor
+1 Nature's Lore
+1 Terrain Generator

The rationale for the lands is the following: this deck is always mana hungry, and Dakmor Salvage only counts as a land when you're really, really desperate. However, when I originally put the deck together, Salvage was counted as a land, so I was basically running 36 lands instead of my usual 37. In most cases, Dakmor Salvage is actually used exclusively as a dredger, especially with Worm Harvest, so I decided to cut a spell slot for an extra land. That land is Terrain Generator, which I want to test as a way to "accelerate" myself without using a spell (yeah, I know I just said I cut a spell slot for it. Whatever). I have a lot of basics, so the card seems like it could be pretty solid in the first few turns of the game.

Dryad Arbor is the replacement for the always-disappointing Bog. Arbor is at least a creature, which matters a lot for various effects in this deck, and is also a Forest, which is more relevant for me than a land that taps for black and isn't searchable.

Oblivion Stone is in because the deck needs more Wrath effects, and this one seemed like the most painless one.

Nature's Lore is in as yet another way to ramp in the early turns. I'm not sure if it will be overkill given that I'm using more lands and Terrain Generator now, but we'll see. My other options for that slot are Zombie Infestation, Vampiric Tutor, Golgari Guildmage, Grim Discovery, and Spike Feeder (though not necessarily in that order).

Thanks to mossivo for a number of these suggestions. He borrowed the deck to play on Sunday at the GP and gave me some valuable feedback afterward.

[Aggro_zombies]

Scars update.

I ended up swapping out Terrain Generator because it cost mana to activate and I tend to run out of basics in hand fairly quickly anyway. It's been replaced by High Market, which gives me a reasonable sacrifice outlet for no mana (giving it the nod over Miren).

Zombie Infestation is in now over Consuming Vapors. Vapors is really powerful, but in most cases I would rather run proper sweepers or targeted removal in this format. If it cost two less and didn't have the life gain, it would still be in...alas. Infestation has been solid so far but may yet become something like Golgari Guildmage.

Steel Hellkite joins the team as another large creature that does stuff. In this case, it gets the nod over Grave Titan and Wurmcoil Engine because (a) I don't have any Titans and I'm not made of money, (b) Wurmcoil Engine is merely okay when it's in one piece, and (c) recycling it to make Wurmlings takes roughly infinite mana and just isn't worth it given what else the deck can already do for infinite mana. Hellkite, on the other hand, begins blowing things up when it connects (excellent), has evasion (good), has a reasonable casting cost if I don't want to reanimate it (very good), and is pretty beefy.

There are still a few weak slots here. Sphinx has often been disappointing and has never been excellent. Magus of the Bazaar is so very, very weak, but I feel compelled to run it because of my curve and the fact that it's a creature. Wall of Roots will likely become Urborg Elf, since I want the mana acceleration but don't need to block as badly in the early game anymore. Extractor Demon looks interesting. Another creature that allows me to repeatedly sacrifice creatures to generate some useful effect would be nice. The deck could probably use another artifact or two for color fixing, particularly for green mana (I seem to draw a lot of hands entirely without green, even though I have lots of green sources in the deck).

Comments, as usual, are appreciated.

[Concallesco]

Have you tried playing Necrotic Ooze and its cohorts? Probably not the Phyrexian Devourer-Trike combo, since your curve is fairly high, but something like Gigantomancer? Steel Hellkite also goes really well with this plan, of course.

[Muradin]

I'd play Reanimate and Unearth in this.

[Aggro_zombies]

Couple of quick updates. I'll edit this with the cuts later, but for now, the additions:

Necrotic Ooze
Trinket Mage
Elixir of Immortality

Ooze is pretty obvious, so I won't talk about it much. I might yet add a Gigantomancer, but don't see the point in doing so since my creatures are already either huge or utility guys.

Mage and Elixir are perhaps less obvious, though. Mage is there almost exclusively to find Elixir (but can also find Top or Sol Ring), and Elixir is there because I've been Bojuka Bog'd right out of the game one too many times. Elixir is basically a catch-all anti-hate card; it's not hard to refill my graveyard in the midgame, but losing stuff from it always hurts. Elixir is the only reusable instant-speed way to save myself from an unfortunate Crypt/Relic/Bog, so it's in. That Mage is not totally dead alone is also nice.

EDIT: Okay, OP updated. Highlights include switching Inkwell Leviathan to Myr Battlesphere and adding in Spike Feeder.

Inky hasn't been that good lately. Even when the opponent was blue, I often just wanted Stormtide Leviathan because it was bigger and prevented retaliation from other players. Inky blocked well, but that wasn't really much of an attraction, because I didn't want to have to block with it. So, given how often it was getting passed over for better reanimation targets, I opted to swap it out for another finisher. After some searches and thinking, I narrowed my options down to the following three: KataMyri, Precursor Golem, and Grave Titan. Golem quickly got eliminated, because while the tokens it makes are beefier than Titan's, the fact that I need to do more work to spam them combined with the ease with which all of the Golems could be killed by a single removal spell sunk the card. Titan only got eliminated because I don't have one, don't have the cash to buy one, and don't have enough high-value mythics to trade for one. That left KataMyri: it makes the most tokens up front, although they are the weakest of the three options; it is potentially the largest attacker of the three, but will often attack alone while the others attack as gangs; it has an activated ability that keeps the tokens relevant if the Battlesphere dies thanks to Necrotic Ooze. If I ever get my hands on a Grave Titan, it will probably take this slot, but for now I'm willing to try Battlesphere.

Spike Feeder is part of an ongoing drive to improve the deck's early game. Brownscale went in before because the body was decent and the dredge ability gained me some life back, but Dredge 2 is pretty weak and the body is not exciting at three mana. The card overall was weak but filled a necessary role. That changed with the addition of Elixir: I've been finding myself cycling Elixir to gain life in the midgame, and Brownscale wasn't doing enough to refill my graveyard or gaining enough life to justify the slot. It turned into Greater Mossdog, which still has a mostly irrelevant body but dredges for three; another card turned into Spike Feeder, which blocks just as well as Brownscale but gains four life in the process. The trade-off is that it's harder to recur, but I'm willing to live with that. It also adds counters to my big guys if I don't need it, which is sweet.

Most of the other changes are minor and are meant to increase synergy and clear out weak cards. Some of the additions may themselves be weak, but we'll figure that one out after testing this configuration. I'm considering cutting something (most likely Skeleton) for an Executioner's Capsule to make Trinket Mage better and increase removal density.

[Aggro_zombies]

Holiday update!

New Additions:
Devoted Druid
Grim Poppet
Executioner's Capsule
Shambling Shell

Watch List Cards:
It That Betrays
Spike Feeder

So, Greater Mossdog got cut almost as soon as I added it because I was reminded by a friend of the existence of Shambling Shell, a card that dredges for the same amount but is cheaper to cast and has an actual ability.

I've also cut some stuff that wasn't very good for a combo to go with my Necrotic Ooze: Devoted Druid and Grim Poppet. Why these two over Trike and Devourer? For starters, Poppet and Druid are better by themselves than Devourer or Trike are; Poppet is arguably better in a vacuum than Trike despite the latter's ability to hit players, and Druid accelerates me while Devourer...does nothing.

In the combo context, the major strike against Poppet-Druid is that it can't hit players, although it kills everything else to death. The Trike-Devourer combo can kill players at the cost of requiring me to exile large parts of my library, which seems risky; I'm also not sure how good it will be at killing several people at once. That said, having a non-combat way to win is very attractive. I'll probably end up testing both.

Capsule is just there so I can use Trinket Mage to find removal.

Spike Feeder is actually not as good as I thought. I might replace it with Wall of Tanglecord, which is also good at frustrating attackers in the early game, but is much better at it than Feeder.

It That Betrays is kind of blah. It gets killed a lot, and is pretty much impossible to ever cast, and doesn't attack very well for being an Eldrazi. On the other hand, the effect it has is very unique and pretty awesome (hence the reason why it gets killed a lot). I'm considering sticking another Eldrazi in this slot: one that will attack better and be easier to actually get into play. Right now, it's a split between Artisan of Kozilek and Pathrazer of Ulamog: the latter is a far better attacker thanks to the unblockability clause and the higher annihilator number, but the former is actually reasonable to cast and has a relevant ability. I'll leave in ITB for now since I want to test the Ooze combos, but it's on my watch list for being a weak slot.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

I don't think Skullclamp is banned in EDH, so you might consider adding this package (considering you already have Thug and try to dredge like mad):

1 Intuition
1 Skullclamp
1 Narcomoeba
1 Cabal Therapy

That way you could Intuition for Therapy, Trinket Mage and Golgari Thug. Whatever they give you, you will be able to get into a loop of Dredge Thug, Skullclamp it and Dredge it again with the Skullclamp to continue the loop (drawing an extra-card and dredge 4 for B2 per iteration). If they give you Mage, you play it and fetch 'clamp, dredging Thug next turn to start the loop. If they give you Therapy, you Dredge Thug, sac it to Therapy to put TMage back to draw next turn and start the loop from there. If they give you Thug, play it and sac it to Therapy, return TMage and there you are.
Once you hit a 'Moeba you can put it back with Thug's trigger to get four draws per Thug-Dredge for B3 (or if you already have any of the other three in hand you can put it into the Intuition-pile).