[Deck] Bant

[Tarmogoyf]

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DTBF Philosophy & Deck Selection , June 2011 Update (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5460-DTBF-Philosophy-amp-Deck-Selection&p=555464#post555464)
1, Merfolk
2, Team America
3, Maverick
4, Zoo
5, Painter
6, Sneak Attack
7, Pro Bant

GP Providence Day Two Archetype Breakdown (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gppro11/day2#2)
Merfolk 33
Zoo 16
UW Landstill 13
Bant 8
Team America 8
Dredge 7
Junk 6
Affinity 5
Natural Order Bant 5
Caw-Blade 4
Painted Stone 4
Reanimator 4
Ad Nauseum 3
BW Weenie 3
BUG Landstill 3
Goblins 3

DTBF Philosophy & Deck Selection September 2010 Update (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5460-DTBF-Philosophy-Deck-Selection&p=492584&viewfull=1#post492584)
1, Vengevine = 10.7%
2, Merfolk = 8.85%
3, Dredge = 7.16%
4, Goblins = 6.77%
5, Zoo = 6.47%
6, CounterTop = 5.16%
7, TES = 4.54%
8, New Horizons = 4.46%
9, Bant = 4.16%

DTBF Philosophy & Deck Selection August 2010 Update (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5460-DTBF-Philosophy-Deck-Selection&p=483989&viewfull=1#post483989)
1, Zoo = 10.08%
2, Merfolk = 8.47%
3, Goblins = 6.45%
4, Bant = 4.84%
5, Landstill = 4.44%

2010-08-01 GP Columbus (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpcol10/day2#1a)
Day 2 Metagame Breakdown
Zoo 20
Bant* 16
CounterTop 12
Merfolk 10
Goblins 10
Aluren 7
Land 6
Belcher 6
ANT 5
Landstill 7
*(Including New Horizons and Natural Order variants)

2009-09 ~ 2009-12 DTB Status (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16023)
1, CounterTop = 164 (Bant CounterTop + Bant NOProg CounterTop = 84)
2, ANT = 155
3, Tempo Threshold = 150
4, Dredge = 140
5, Merfolk = 115
6, Goblin = 107
7, Zoo = 78
8, Faerie = 61
9, Bant Aggro = 59

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2010-03-16, update Mystic Control/Bant deck (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16059-%5BDeck%5D-Bant-Aggro-and-Pro-Bant&p=438295&viewfull=1#post438295)
2010-03-01, update Pro Bant of GP Madrid Top 8 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16059-%5BDeck%5D-Bant-Aggro-and-Pro-Bant&p=433134&viewfull=1#post433134)
2010-01-26, update "Sylvan Library"

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Color
:u::g::w: (U+G+W)

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Type
Bant Aggro (Aggro-Control)
Pro Bant (Aggro-Control-Combo)

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History
Exalted ability (Noble Hierarch, Qasali Pridemage), creature with artifact/enchantment hate (Qasali Pridemage), and 3cc 3/4 lifelink creature (Rhox War Monk) created this deck.

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Main Deck
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Draw (4~8)
4 x Brainstorm
0~4 x Ponder
0~2 x Sensei's Divining Top
0~2 x Sylvan Library

Counters (7~11)
4 x Force of Will
3~4 x Daze
0~3 x Spell Snare : 1cc against 2cc
0~3 x Spell Pierce : 1cc against noncreature spell

Removal (4~8)
4 x Swords to Plowshares
0~4 x Path to Exile : 1cc remove target creature

Counter/Removal
0~2 x Bant Charm : put on the bottom of library/counter instant spell

Creatures
4 x Noble Hierarch
4 x Tarmogoyf
3~4 x Qasali Pridemage : against artifact/enchantment and exalted
3~4 x Rhox War Monk
0~2 x Trygon Predator : against artifact/enchantment, flying
0~2 x Vendilion Clique : the best 3cc flying blue creature
0~2 x Loaming Shaman
0~4 x Stoneforge Mystic

Combo (Pro Bant only)
3 x Natural Order
1 x Progenitus : 10/10 Protection from everything
0~1 x Dryad Arbor : land creature for Natural Order

Land (18 or 19)
8~9 x Fetch land (Misty Rainforest , Windswept Heath , Flooded Strand)
6~7 x Dual land (Tropical Island , Tundra , Savannah)
1~2 x Island
1~2 x Forest
1~2 x Plains

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Sideboard (15)
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[1] against red-based deck
Blue Elemental Blast , Hydroblast
- Zoo/Burn
- Goblin

[2] destroy artifact/enchantment
Krosan Grip , Trygon Predator

[3] graveyard hate
Tormod's Crypt , Relic of Progenitus , Faerie Macabre
- Dredge
- Aggro Loam

[4] Combo
Gaddock Teeg --> against ANT, Landstill, Stax, etc.

[5] removal
Submerge : best removal against green-based creature
Path to Exile
Engineered Explosives

[6] Other
Umezawa's Jitte
Meddling Mage
Threads of Disloyalty
Divert

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Banned !!
Counterbalance
=> Superme Blue CounterTop, Bant CounterTop, Pro Bant CounterTop => CounterTop (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13716) Thread

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Reference
- Horizon Canopy + Wasteland + Stifle = New Horizons (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?15244-[DTW]-New-Horizons) Thread
- UGW + Survival of the Fittest = Bant Survival (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13478-[DTW]-Bant-Survival) Thread
- White tempo threshold = UGw Tempo (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17600-[Deck]-UGw-Tempo) Thread

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Question :
1. How about these cards in the main deck ?
Creature :
1-1. 0~3 x Knight of the Reliquary
1-2. 0~2 x Sower of Temptation --> 4cc 2/2 flying
1-3. 0~2 x Rafiq of the Many --> 4cc 3/3 exalted
1-4. 0~4 x Nimble Mongoose --> same as UGW threshold
1-5. 0~4 x Spellstutter Sprite --> counter-spell creature
Planeswalker :
1-6. 0~2 x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1-7. 0~2 x Garruk Wildspeaker

1-8, How about this ? one, two, or three ?
http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAG_WWK/JacetheMindSculptor.jpg

[Tarmogoyf]

Decklist check (2010-10-07 updated)

============================================================================
Bant Aggro
============================================================================
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37985
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37883
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37660
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37541
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37318
M11 (2010-07-17)
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36979
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36860
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36820
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36725
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36110
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35655
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35635
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35260
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35086
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35073
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34921
Rise of the Eldrazi (2010-04-23)
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35651
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34939
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34599
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34587
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34429
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34425
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34421
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34280
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34236
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=33883
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=33881
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=33776 = 23
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=33421 = 39
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=33414 = 106
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=33398 = 46
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=33078 = 85
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=33070 = 32
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32785 = 32
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32989 = 24
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32724
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32358 = 133
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32356 = 47
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32339 = 20
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32334 = 20
Worldwake (2010-01-30)
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32130 = 24
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31806
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31795
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31378 = SCG 5K Los Angeles T16
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31374 = SCG 5K Los Angeles T16
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31323
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31210 = 60
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31085
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30361 = 59
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30250
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30257
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30219
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31125
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30336
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30074
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29486
Zendikar (2009-10-02)
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29418 = 283 people
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29361
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29262 = 42
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29261 = 41
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29217
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29160
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28419
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28108
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28101 = 53
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28047 = 76
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27950 = 52
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27946 = 52
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27940 = 116 people
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27805
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27735 = 78
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27732 = 78
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27721 = 132 people
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27628
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27516
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27111 = 60
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27009
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=26615
Alara Reborn (2009-04-30)
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25639 = 83
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25058
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23953
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23426


============================================================================
Pro Bant
============================================================================
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37895
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37820
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37751
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37693
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37665
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37538
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37417
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37412
M11 (2010-07-17)
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36875
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36859
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36724
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36702
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36497
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36108
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35902
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35670
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35262
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35112
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34926
Rise of the Eldrazi (2010-04-23)
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35648
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34943
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34827
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34634
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34629
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34475
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34433
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=33975 = 37
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=33755 = 35
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=33422 = 39
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32841 ( 2225 GP Madrid )
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32471 = 35
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32351 = 47
Worldwake (2010-01-30)
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32146 = 24
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31937 = 65
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31932 = 69
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31819 = 88
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31257 = 45
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31190
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30455 = 72
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30283
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29643
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29603
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29511 = 112 people
Zendikar (2009-10-02)
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29166
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28752 = 46
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28686
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27999 = 95

[hyc8028]

Finally, a Bant thread. There are some things you can do to improve it.

I think you should post up some match up analysis and SB plans.

You should also explain the advantage and disadvantage of NO/Pro in Bant aggro.

Another big thing I know everyone would ask is why ditching CounterTop, so you should post your reasons as well.

Just my 2 cents trying to make this thread better.

[rocketrae21]

I think that NO/Pro is probably the best thing for the deck. I like that they worry about Goyf and War Monk that they dont see Prog coming. Also if you are going to run NO/Pro, you definitely need Dryad Arbor in the deck. The fact you can fetch out something to sac. Yeah losing a Heirarch isn't a huge deal, but sometimes they just arent there. Also most decks can't deal with Prog.

I run CounterTop as well. The fact the deck runs 1-5 mana costs makes it very nice. Yeah 3-5 are on the slim, but they are still in the deck if needed.

For sideboarding...I like to actually side out CounterTop because a lot of decks will bring in hate for it. Then they sit there holding K. Grip or whatever with nothing to hit.

[Atlanos]

Hello,
I think Divert (http://magiccards.info/od/en/82.html) is a good choice for the SB against Discard and else. Sorry if i´am wrong.

[mchainmail]

I think Daze needs justification in this deck, especially because it seems to play differently than other variants.

Also, what makes a deck "Bant Aggro" / "Pro Bant"? Is this list Pro Bant? http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=30742

[Lammina]

I think Daze needs justification in this deck, especially because it seems to play differently than other variants.

Also, what makes a deck "Bant Aggro" / "Pro Bant"? Is this list Pro Bant? http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=30742

A "Pro Bant" deck have the Natural Order (NO) + Progenitus (Pro Bant.. PROgenitus).

That is the only difference between the two decks, the PROgenitus strategy.


Cyah,

Lammina

[GUnit]

This thread is an excellent idea (and overdue in my opinion) but I think more justification is required for the specific card choices and, equally if not more importantly, the omissions (Jitte; Sower; Counterbalance- which sees play in most of the lists I've seen; etc.). Sure, you can take it for granted that Force of Will and Brainstorm (particularly in NO versions) are four-ofs, and likely a few other cards, such as Tarmogoyf, simply because they outclass other options in your colours, but most other cards demand logical justification if you're to speak with authority about why the deck is built the way it is. For example, I would not take it for granted that playing a minimum of three dazes is mandatory in this deck without some very firm grounding for that argument. Similarly, I do not see the logic behind determining that precisely 4 swords are mandatory (when you essentially have access to 8). Could the correct minimum number not be 3 or 5 or something else? Steve Menendian's new bant list (which may or may not be good) runs 7, for example.

[from Cairo]

For example, I would not take it for granted that playing a minimum of three dazes is mandatory in this deck without some very firm grounding for that argument.


I think Daze needs justification in this deck, especially because it seems to play differently than other variants.


In the ProBant builds, especially those with Counterbalance, I think 3-4 Daze is pretty mandatory. The deck's Sorcery speed card count is very high for an agro control deck and having free protection allows the deck to tap out aggressively shifting board position. It may be less relevant in the builds that don't curve out to 4cc cards. Some of the builds seem to bulk more at 2cc, so in those lists I could see the deck more often having mana available to utilize Spell Pierce or Spell Snare.


Similarly, I do not see the logic behind determining that precisely 4 swords are mandatory (when you essentially have access to 8). Could the correct minimum number not be 3 or 5 or something else? Steve Menendian's new bant list (which may or may not be good) runs 7, for example.

The OP lists 4-8 removal effects; which given how creature heavy the meta is seems very reasonable. I think in this deck Swords to Plowshares complements the strategy more than Path to Exile. Ones opponent generally is going to be more dangerous with an additional mana at their disposal than an additional ~4 life; the deck is built with the ability to fight and win an attrition battle, and it's not looking to 20->0 asap in the way that Zoo or something is. One could easily run 5-7 removal spells, but they should probably be 4 Swords to Plowshares and X Path to Exiles.

[GUnit]

My point was moreso to suggest that you might be able to get away with 3 swords, or it might be absolutely mandatory to play at least 5, in which case, if we're sticking with the theme of declaring things to be absolutely mandatory (a potentially dangerous approach in my opinion), the minimum should be one of those numbers, or there should be some justification for the seemingly arbitrary number 4. When considering other card slots in this deck there is no such direct analogue (as there is with swords and path), so it can be taken for granted that if we're playing four we just want "as many as we can get." In this case, however, we can actually have more of the "same" card, so that implied argument flies straight out the window and there is a burden to justify why precisely four is the correct minimum.

Arguing about this specifically, though, I think isn't in anyone's best interest. The point I was trying to raise is that card selections, including numbers, and omissions should be justified and not simply taken for granted.

[mhinsz]

This is my list (which hasn't changed in about 4 months)

4 Noble Heirarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Quasali Pridemage
1 Progenitus

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Snare
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Natural Order

4 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Island
1 Dryad Arbor
------------------
SB

2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Path to Exile
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
2 Krosan Grip

I've done well with this deck - but have had problems vs. Goblins, Merfolk, and Dredge.

I can switch some numbers in the deck for metagame reasons - usually swapping slots between Trygon Predator/Pridemage and the 4th Rhox War Monk.

The 7 plow effects after boarding can really give a lot of problems to decks that don't swarm or have secondary win conditions that aren't creatures. (Counterbalance). I rarely side out Natural Order.

It is a bit of a mystery to me that the deck has been seeing it's most popularity when paired with Counterbalance/Top. I tried that configuration - taking out Ponders and some creatures, and have had no success with it. Again, I may be playing it incorrectly.

[Kuma]

Goblins and Dredge hate Propaganda and Ghostly Prison. I had problems with those matchups, especially Goblins, but now I don't because of those cards.

Engineered Explosives is good against Merfolk and Dredge while also being excellent against Zoo and random BGW decks that kick Bant's butt.

[rocketrae21]

On the whole number of swords issue. I run 4 StP main and 3 Path side. I like 4 swords main, and only swords, because if you are facing a non creature deck, they are dead draws and you don't want dead draws. All though most decks do run creatures so therefore have 4 seems like the right numbers. Path is a great card but the fact that you are giving them extra mana to threaten you is no good. You don't want to give Zoo more mountains to burn you out with or anything like that.

[Irish_Mafia]

Why is counterbalance 'banned' for this deck? I realize that it is suboptimal against some decks but it is back breaking in others. What do you do aagainst Ant or T.E.S without balance? I mean I find that its really one of the only ways to do it.

[Forbiddian]

If you run Counterbalance, then your deck is a Counterbalance variant.

"Bant Aggro" refers to the more aggressive variants that skip CB in favor of a stronger beatdown plan.


Incidentally, Rhox War Monk provides a similar clock to Counterbalance. Turn 1 Hierarch, turn 2 RWM, turn 3 swing forces your opponent to come up with like 11-12 storm for the kill. With more swings, it becomes impossible to win off of Ad Nauseum (due to low life), and impossible to kill you with IGG or other methods (due to your high life), so you win.

Clearly bant aggro does worse against TES than the CB lists, but it's not unwinnable by any means. Also, no matter what happens, you're opening with Force and Daze in the main, so you can always salvage the combo matchups with board material.

[That nice guy]

Is 3 ponder to much? I like 2.

wouldn't you wanna play with 4 natural order cause it's so good? If they counter one cast the next, and if they're not playin counters ... win ... it's faster!

Why trygon and pridemage why not just pick the better one and be consistent?

[Clark Kant]

6. Wouldn't you wanna play with 4 natural order cause it's so good?

This is an excellent question.

My build plays...

4 Natural Order
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Progenitus

I have yet to see a good argument against this approach.

Natural Order is an absolute bomb. On those feared occasions where I had a Progenitus in hand and no Brainstorm to shuffle it back into the library, I still won off the back of NOing for Rafiq of the Many which made my attack with either Goyf or RMW that turn absolutely massive and game swinging. It's pretty hard to lose when RMW gains you eight life while dealing eight damage, and Tarmogoyf deals an absurd 12 damage. There were many situations I was in where I opted to NO for Rafiq instead of Progentitus because that was actually the superior option in that case.

[chokin]

Is 3 ponder to much? I like 2.

wouldn't you wanna play with 4 natural order cause it's so good? If they counter one cast the next, and if they're not playin counters ... win ... it's faster!

Why trygon and pridemage why not just pick the better one and be consistent?

TP is better against Stax and multiple Enchantment/Artifact decks. It also dodges Firespout vs Japanese Supreme Blue.

QP is better for "Kill it now" and has Exalted.

The singleton of TP is so if you absolutely must, you can NO for it. For Bant Aggro, I wouldn't run Rafiq because of his vulnerability to bolt and no way to recur him like you can in Survival builds.

EDIT: Also, running 3 copies is fine. You can cantrip into it. It's 4 mana, which can be a chore sometimes, so if you don't have 4 mana, it's kinda dead. The deck is supposed to be solid without it is what I gathered.

[Aggro_zombies]

TP is better against Stax and multiple Enchantment/Artifact decks. It also dodges Firespout vs Japanese Supreme Blue.
The opponent can always pay :g: for Firespout to kill Predator in game one. I doubt it would stay in game two.

[chokin]

The opponent can always pay :g: for Firespout to kill Predator in game one. I doubt it would stay in game two.

I know. But it could kill theirs too if they played it, ya know? And Stax could always O-Ring it. Or in some builds, Maze of Ith it forever. I guess the JSB point was too weak of an argument, so I stand corrected.

I think it was you who originally shot down Rafiq in some other post saying something about how your "bomb" being Bolt-able is really lackluster. And I agree for this deck.

[Aggro_zombies]

I think it was you who originally shot down Rafiq in some other post saying something about how your "bomb" being Bolt-able is really lackluster. And I agree for this deck.
Was I? I don't remember that, but I'm flattered someone does.

Allow me to change my opinion somewhat based on metagame considerations. Rafiq is probably an interesting sideboard card, but it's debatable as to whether or not he's better than other options. For one thing, he's not very good against Zoo, for obvious reasons. However, in the mirror he seems like he could be rather backbreaking, especially if you've got Vendillion Clique, Predator, or RWM. In the former two cases, he represents a huge amount of damage in the air, making it difficult to race with Progenitus if the opponent has taken any prior damage; in the latter case, he makes it virtually impossible to race because of the dramatic life swings in your favor (and RMW with a 4/5 body and double strike will almost certainly punch through any opposing Tarmogoyfs). He can be quite good as a surprise finisher against control, and at four mana he's not easy to EE. Finally, he seems better in a way against combo since he can win faster than Progenitus by allowing a preexisting Tarmogoyf to swing when he comes down for 8+, but it's somewhat of a moot point because you're less interested in firing off Natural Order than in just beating the stuffing out of the other guy as quickly as possible.

Basically, he seems really good in the matchups where it won't take much work to protect him, if only because he wins Goyf wars, and wins them HARD. However, it's questionable whether you'd want him in the sideboard over Empyrial Archangel, which is better against Zoo and burn decks than Progenitus because it keeps you from getting burned out and has flying to mimic the unblockability of protection. In most cases, I don't think he's actively bad; he's just not good enough.

[That nice guy]

I think Daze needs justification in this deck, especially because it seems to play differently than other variants.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=30742

Some times you need to play the role of the aggressor and without countertop that job becomes easier. Daze helps you play this role.


If rarique sucks perhaps Loxodon Hierarch would be a good target as a 1 of in the SB. Any other 4 drop/5 dro ideas???

Also I was wondering if anyone had experience with Dueling Grounds??? I admittedly have no experiance with the card but it seems to be a good 1of.

Does anyone think wall of blossoms is good enough to cut something (say 4th pridemage) cause it sacs, digs, is a great late-game rip, and slows agro.

Also I was wondering if anyone had experiance with Circle of Protection Red??? I admittedly have no experience with the card but it seems that the mana intensity would be a bit to much.

I've also found that I can't win against enchantress I'm 0-3 in tourney with this deck. I've even debated running EE and tranquility in the board. I alo can't beat 43 land, any ideas?

[chokin]

@aggro_zombies - I could be wrong. It was in the CounterTop thread somewhere. Yes, in the mirror or mirror-esque matches, Rafiq just pushes you over the top. He's your fourth 4cc finisher. You can lock the ground up with Goyfs and Monks and then drop him and start going nuts with an Exalted Double Striking RWM and start winning. They either take 8 or more to the face, or start losing board position. Just beware of STP.

@that nice guy - Rafiq isn't all awful. My post may have been misleading. He just has a niche role. And Loxodon Hierarch is not very good in my opinion. Dueling Grounds is decent enough for the aggro match with all of the Exalted, but multiple copies do nothing, which kinda sucks. No to Wall of Blossoms if you ask me, simply because RWM and Goyf are the best walls that can also turn sideways. Why run CoP: Red when you could probably squeeze in Counterbalance? EE as a 2-3 of will help your Enchantress match. It also helps 43 lands, as it can nuke Exploration/Manabond and Moxen. Try to counter their Loam and Crypt it. Or respond to a Loam with a Crpyt.

The most successful builds I've personally witnessed were Counterbalance builds. With a variety of 1-4cc spells, you bust the mirror match. That's something to think about when constructing.

[Clark Kant]

To clarify, I didn't bring up Rafiq just because he's a strong finisher.

I brought up Rafiq because he's a strong finisher that you can both hardcast, or Natural Order for if you have Progenitus in hand and thus can't NO for Prog. Thus, this enables NO to be played as a 4 of.

And in some situations even if you don't have Prog in hand, you're better off NOing for Rafiq and winning the game that very same turn rather than NOing for Progenitus and giving your opponent another turn.

To sum up...



My build plays...

4 Natural Order
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Progenitus

I have yet to see a good argument against this approach.

Natural Order is an absolute bomb. On those feared occasions where I had a Progenitus in hand and no Brainstorm to shuffle it back into the library, I still won off the back of NOing for Rafiq of the Many which made my attack with either Goyf or RMW that turn absolutely massive and game swinging. It's pretty hard to lose when RMW gains you eight life while dealing eight damage, and Tarmogoyf deals an absurd 12 damage. There were many situations I was in where I opted to NO for Rafiq instead of Progentitus because that was actually the superior option in that case.

[F3lix]

Here's my build:

// Lands
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [A] Tropical Island
3 [R] Tundra
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [MR] Plains (1)
1 [ALA] Forest (3)
1 [7E] Island (2)

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
2 [DIS] Azorius Guildmage

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [LRW] Burrenton Forge-Tender


Notable changes are lack of RWM and the addition of Guildmage, Elspeth, and more counters. I personally love drawing Guildmage and believe that Noble makes it playable here. Stifle on a stick and its tap ability are huge for this deck.

This deck is more suited for my meta, as I don't see an overwhelming amount of Lightning Bolt. Though if I do I often just change the the Cliques to RWM. I play this as straight tempo, but have the Guildmages and Elspeth to give me reach. This deck can wreak havoc on CB decks, which I do enjoy.

As far as this thread goes, I can see it going in at least 3 directions.

-Tempo builds
-NO builds
-Aggro builds

[Tarmogoyf]

2009-09 ~ 2009-12 DTB Status (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16023)
1, CounterTop = 164 (Bant CounterTop + Bant NOProg CounterTop = 84)
2, ANT = 155
3, Tempo Threshold = 150
4, Dredge = 140
5, Merfolk = 115
6, Goblin = 107
7, Zoo = 78
8, Faerie = 61
9, Bant Aggro = 59

[Tarmogoyf]

Loam Lion
w
Creature - Cat Uncommon
Loam Lion gets +1/+2 as long as you control a Forest.
1/1

I think we have a white kird in Bant Aggro, even not for fow.

[darrkman]

I don't like Loam Lion in this deck, because there are many better first turn plays (ponder,brainstorm,noble). But what wasn't previously posted i think that Sylvan library fits in - one or two copies. It provides mana free and repeatable way not to draw progenitus, is great card with fetches and best with active RWM, in my opinion.

[darrkman]

Just a few hours after my previous post, I found out that somebody has the same idea with Sylvan and won 65 people GPT:http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31937.

[darrkman]

I can sum up some sylvan arguments: It is not that aggro, but it provides many options in this deck, and late game advantage. It costs 2, but i doubt somebody will spell snare it. It is good on itself, just brainstorming every turn for free, make sure you dont draw progenitus. In some combo matchups it can win you games, because your life doesnt really matter (depends on type of combo), but what do matter, are two or more additional cards. If needed it can turn your RWM into finkel. I know that deck is supposed to be more aggro, but i think that even an aggro deck needs cards like these. In my opinion it is better two drop than 2/3 tarmogoyf (depends), if you arent able to play turn two RWM or if you are able but you want to play around daze.

[alphacat]

Hey guys, I'm bringing Bant Aggro to a small tourney this weekend, I'm wondering if you guys could help me with sideboard strategy.

I'm playing this list: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31937

I expect the field to be:

Highly likely: Dragon Stompy, Enchantress, W Stax, ANT
Likely: Merfolk, Goblin, Countertop, Burn
Unlikely: Loam, Land, Zoo

I'm wondering if you guys can help me decide on a SB, and which cards would be good for which MU.

Much appreciated!

[The_Red_Panda]

Maindeck Trygon Predators. Like, 3 or 4 of them. If you land one against Wstax it's basically a win, and enchantress has problems with them if they come out early. Against D-stompy, they smash 3spheres and chalices. That's basically the dream meta for trygon.

[chokin]

3 or 4 TP is too much. Have 3 between your main and side. If you aren't running any artifacts or enchantments, Serenity is a really good card against Stax and it's ok against Enchantress. Just be sure to pack grave hate too to prevent Enchantress from recovering with Replenish or have a counter ready.

Oh, and always pack at least 2 Krosan Grip. It helps against Humility, as Moat is killed by TP.

[alphacat]

Thanks for the info guys, it's very helpful.

Btw, any tips on what I should side in against Burn, Goblin, and Dragon? I'd assume I should pack some anti-red stuff in the SB to hit them all, right?

[miko]

I would cut the 2 Loaming Shamans. Because they do nothing in your meta.

[dan who?]

Thanks for the info guys, it's very helpful.

Btw, any tips on what I should side in against Burn, Goblin, and Dragon? I'd assume I should pack some anti-red stuff in the SB to hit them all, right?

I would pack some hydroblasts / Blue elemental blasts. I run 3 in my sideboard.

[BantFTW]

Okej, I' m playing this list (not if I'm in the Netherlands because there's to much combo :P)

Pro Aggro Bant:

land:

3 tundra
3 tropical island
1 savannah
1 dryad arbor (I'm not really sure of this guy^^)
1 plains
1 forest
1 island
7 U-fetch

Creatures:
4 goyf
2 qasali pridemage
3 RWM
2 vendilion clique (it owns so hard, first I was playing trygon predator/cold-eyed selkie but this one is better)
4 noble hierarch
1 rafiq of the many
1 progenitus

Spells:
4 stp
3 daze
3 natural order
2 sylvan library (mostly it doesn't get countered so)
4 force of will
2 ponder (replace wirh jitte??)
4 brainstorm
2 bant charm
1 echoing truth

Sideboard:
2 ghotsly prison/cold-eyed selkie/trygon predator
2 kitchen finks
2 krosan grip
3 relic of progenitus
2 ethersworn canonist
4 mindbreak trap (for killing combo :P)

Now, the problem is that I'm in a Combo-Aggro meta so it's so hard somtimes...
What should I do against Aggro (zoo and gobbs), maybe put jittes main, then I have an even better matchup?
And against merfolk it's also alot of time very hard.
So sideboard-help would be nice!

[Tarmogoyf]

Firespout is the best way against Merfolk/Zoo/Goblin, so I decide to add red color into Bant aggo, like SupermeBlue without coutertop.

Firespout Bant (UGWR)

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Trygon Predator
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Firespout

1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island

[BantFTW]

And what do u play sideboard, just stuff against combo :P??
Post it plz

If I would play with red, I would go counterbalance top^^

[Shugyosha]

I am a bit surprised Stoneforge Mystic isn't discussed in this thread. This Worldwake card fits perfectly into the deck as it is another body, comes with cardadvantage and tutors the most broken equipment in every situation.

Something like this works very well in a Bant Aggro deck without NO/Prog:

2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

The virtually 5 Equipment pieces transform every creature, even Noble Hierarch, into good beaters.

[MattH]

I am a bit surprised Stoneforge Mystic isn't discussed in this thread. This Worldwake card fits perfectly into the deck as it is another body, comes with cardadvantage and tutors the most broken equipment in every situation.

Something like this works very well in a Bant Aggro deck without NO/Prog:

2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

The virtually 5 Equipment pieces transform every creature, even Noble Hierarch, into good beaters.

So does, like, exalted. I don't think that what this deck needs is more good beaters, it has those coming out the woodwork.

[BantFTW]

Why would u waste spots for it, just play 2 jittes ...
instead u can put counter or firespout shizzle in it :P

Much better..

[Shugyosha]

So does, like, exalted. I don't think that what this deck needs is more good beaters, it has those coming out the woodwork.

The thing is, that exalted is only really good with multiple instances and while attacking. Decks running a bunch of creatures can still get you in race mode. Umezawa's Jitte is so insanely good against Goblins/Merfolk and many other Decks. Stoneforge Mystic lets you run more virtual copies of a really broken card, is card advantage and supports the aggro strategy, can you say this about any other card in the deck? Even his second ability matters with Jitte as the opponent could have played a Balance after Mystic came down early or could have a Spell Pierce in hand.

[BantFTW]

I don't know but don't u guys have alot of problems against zoo and espacially gobblins??
I really don't know what to do against gobblins...

We thouht that Duelling Grounds ain't bad ^^
But idk...

I also play Jitte ofcourse but that's sometimes even to slow, sideboard also 3 BEB

[Shimi]

I`m testing and playing this PRO Bant list but I`m felling that it can be improved and want to share it.

1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
//18 Lands

3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
//4 NO Combo

2 Sylvan Library
4 Brainstorm
//6 Draw

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 SpellSnare
//10 Counter

4 Sword to Plowshares
2 Jitte of Umezawa
//6 Removal

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Quasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Rafiq of Many
//16 Creatures

My metagame has a few combos and is infested by aggros like zoo , goblins and merfolks, some CB and CT lists and EveGreens are present in top8s.

I test with SpellSnares and Pierces and found that SpellSnares seems better cause Daze , NO or Progenitus can be dead cards in your hand.Also it counters Counterbalance , Goyf , Bob , Edicts , RunedHalos.

Rafiq is in the place of RWM , it saved me some times and i liked to play it hard cast and hit for 8-10 , also they usually need to take care of him and leave alive your Goyf and RWM.It also makes your Progenitus hit for 20+ and win locked games.

Sylvan Library is just amazing , it avoid you from flooding lands and make you found threads, you can also draw a extra card to NO with backup.For me it seems better than Ponder(which can't avoid you from drawing Progenitus) but ponder is blue , a sorcery to grow Goyf and replaces it self.

Jitte is in the main deck cause Noble or Dryad or any other small threat becomes a Goyf , it is also unfair with Rafiq and take cares of Goblins and Merfolks ,the problem is just when you have it but just one or two threaths to attach it and they take StP or other kind of removal.

So you guys who are testing it too, do you think the number of creatures or real threats are too low?
Should I move Jitte to SB and bring Vendillion Clique which flys and takeout opponents removal or bombs?
SpellSnare should stay or be replaced by 4th Daze , RWM and another blue card(so blue cards count don't stay too low , maybe a Trygon)?

PS:About the goblins MU , I'm testing Kitchen Finks and it seems very good.

[BantFTW]

I'm playing this list:

1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
//18

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Sword to Plowshares
1 echoing truth (maybe this one out and another trygon predator/daze..)
//21

2 jace, the mind sculptor (this one owns quite alot)
2 elspeth
//4

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf
2 cliques
1 trygon predator
//17

SB//
3 ethersworn canonist
3 spell pierce
2 kitchen finks
2 ghostly prison
3 relic of progenitus
2 xx (krosan grip, BEB I would go for my meta,...)

Now, my meta is full of aggro (gobblins, zoo, merfs) & combo so against combo u got a very, very good matchup.
I tested alot and without progenitus it's better. U could play it sideboard but i don't think u need it.
Against gobblins u got some problems, but against merfolk and zoo it ain't bad.
The other meta decks are also quit good matchups, only ******** can be a problem because they attack your land and that can be very painfull.
Maybe I should go - echoing truth and trygon predator and go + clique and qasali pridemage but i don't know that yet.
Let me know what u think and what can be better...

@Shimi, ur list is good adn u are playing aggro so 3 daze is enough..
but I would bring clique in because it owns so hard really.
I don't know if u tested it but it's a win against merfolk because it fly's.
Really just test it and u'll see how good it is..
And sylvan library is good but against gobblins and stuff it ain't that good so i don't know.
I've played that list to and my list is better for my meta because the combo and aggro, and why no elspeth, it let u win against some decks to.

[BreathWeapon]

I'll back 1xStoneforge Mystic and 1xUmezawa's Jitte, Exalted is good in the aggro-control mirrors where it forces thru' your Tarmogoyf and Rhox War Monks, but Stoneforge Mystice and Umezawa's Jitte have the same effect while punishing Zoo, Goblins, Merfok and even Dredge to an extent. Really, Stoneforge Mystic and Umezawa's Jitte may be more of a "Supreme Blue" card, where the deck is designed to defeat Zoo buck lacks the tools it needs to push thru' vs aggro-control with out Exalted. Even still, it's pretty damn nice to have and I actually prefer it to Natural Order quite a bit.

[That nice guy]

Has anyone considered Basilisk Collar? Rapes agro even on dryad arbor in late game.


Also has anyone tested Terastodon over Progen.

[Radiant]

Also has anyone tested Terastodon over Progen.

Reasons?

[BantFTW]

why would u go for basilisk ? Just go Jitte then xD
Jitte destroys things so, ok it ain't bad but why u would play it?
Jitte stays better.

[Nessaja]

Also has anyone tested Terastodon over Progen.
That's some really interesting tech you got there. If not mainboard atleast as a sideboard option...

[Shimi]

@BantFTW
I'm going to switch Jittes for Cliques in maindeck and test it more times.Sylvan is just amazing against any kind of aggro-control, its lack or slow againts fast aggros so it is sideout, it has the same function of your jace , but costs less which is good when you have no ponders to find lands in early, of course its brainstorm cost 4 life and it is not blue.
If i would play Elspeth I would play jittes so a equiped 4/4 flying token is broken.

About basilisk , jitte seems LOT Better , since it gives you 4 life , can kill problematic creatures ( magus of moon , bob , lord and much more) and also win Goyf wars.
Terastodon could be a very nice tech , I would like to know if it really works.

[That nice guy]

Reasons?

Cause sometimes agro can actually race you, and things like pile-driver can actually slip by the Pbeast. Having a horde and the option to destroy pesky permanents is sweet sometimes. It's fuckin Tech! And in one game I actually hardcasted it. I do wish it was blue though.

As for collar I just thought it'd be less mana-intensive(fits the curve nicer) ,non-legendary, and most importantly it CANT be countered by spellsnare and you wont care about Daze as much. It was just a thought and I was wondering if anyone tested it.

[BantFTW]

A friend did go top 4 with the same deck as I play:

19 land

4 noble
4 qasali
3 RWM
4 goyf
3 clique

spells:
3 daze
3 spell snare
4 FOW
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
4 STP
2 elspeth
2 jace, new one

sb//
2 dueling grounds
2 EE
2 krosan grip
2 relic of pro
1 tormod's crypt
4 ethersworn canonist
2 trygon predator

I only play main something els:
- 1 clique and - 2 ponder
+ 1 daze and + 2 predator

SB// I play:

2 dueling grounds
2 EE
2 finks
3 canonist
3 relic of pro
3 spell pierce

It was a 65 man torunament in Mol, Belgium and it's a pritty nice list.
NOPRO ain't that good, it's just an extra win...
He lost from fearies (with firespout and tombstalker main) in the finals.
Bad matchups for me that I tested are sometimes Rock (they destroy alot :P)
zoo is pritty hard
and gobblins and merfolk sometime (only if they go really, really hard^^)
Againt gobblins, merfolk and zoo,, dueling grounds is a really good card.
Mainboard gobblins and merfolk doesn't get rid of it and zoo just counter their ugly qasali's and u win.

[Clark Kant]

Given just how ridiculously overpowered NO seems in the deck, I would consider playing 4 Natural Order, along with a single Rafiq of the Many to go along side it. I see that some decks already are playing Rafiq (since it's an excellent fit in the deck) but still aren't playing the 4th NO. Most of the time, the 4cc for the NO gets you Progenitus, which is just an absurdly good deal. But it can grab Rafiq as a back up when needed too.

The main advantage of that is that even if you have a Progenitus in hand, and can cast NO, you still have something very strong to get with it. But also...

There's a number of situations where you would actually prefer to grab Rafiq with NO rather than Progenitus (when you're dangerously low on life but have a RMW in play that would really benefit from Rafiq and doublestrike), or when you can win the game that very same turn against combo or something, but only if you NO for Rafiq instead of Progenitus.

[BantFTW]

Progenitus ain't needed^^, I also play rafiq in my deck sometimes and it owns :P.
But Progenitus is ane xtra win and ain't needed.
I win from the normal Bant decks with No into Progenitus...

[Clark Kant]

No particular threat is actually NEEDED.

By point is that NO => Progenitus is the best deal in the whole deck. 4cc for a 10/10 unblockable shroud creature is a hell of a deal. It seems like the deck would want to get that deal as consistently and frequently as humanly possible. So why not up to 4 NO. You can always grab Rafiq with an NO too, so it's not like NO is ever a completely dead draw.

[BantFTW]

okej,

my meta it ain't good, it's almost only aggro and combo (ant)
so NOPRO is to slow for aggro and no needing for ant xD
I would go in Madrid a list with firespout main I think and also NOPRO ofcourse^^

[Clark Kant]

I'm actually onlly talking about Pro Bant lists, not your list in particular (since you don't play Pro anyways).

If you have a Noble Hierarach, you can NO on turn 3. You will have yet a near impossible to kill creature to use for blocking, one that can sometimes win the game with a single swing, or at most two swings.

Even without Hierach, you NO on turn 4.

Considering that you also play StP and a lot of fantastic blockers (RMW, Tarmogoyf) that you can drop down on turn 2 with ease, I don't see how turn 3 or 4 for NO can possibly be too slow for aggro.

I can see it being too slow for combo and burn, but I think against aggro, it's plenty fast enough.

Some ProBant lists play 4cc Planeswalkers. The Planeswalkers are inferior to NO. They're way slower, not very aggressive and much easier to kill. I would honestly cut them for the 4th NO and a 1 of Rafiq.

[BantFTW]

Indeed if u go into NORPO, don't play plainswalkers and maybe think of going firespout xD^^

but, just test it, it's really to slow against gobblins, trust me..
Against zoo and merfs it ain't but yeah..

[xTrainx]

Has anyone tested Sejiri Merfolk?
2/1 First Strike Lifelink.

Iunno.

[BreathWeapon]

Has anyone tested Sejiri Merfolk?
2/1 First Strike Lifelink.

Iunno.

You'd never run it over X Stoneforger Mystic and 1 Umezawa's Jitte.

[BantFTW]

That one will be played in UW merfs, with stp's also main,...
It's a really good deck then xD

And stoneforge .. is a good card but not good enough in legacy I think, I play it in T2 so^^

[Tarmogoyf]

Pro Bant
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpmad10/welcome#16

GP Madrid Top 8
Lluis Restoy
Main Deck
60 cards

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Savannah
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Windswept Heath
19 lands

1 Kitchen Finks
2 Loaming Shaman
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Progenitus
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Rafiq of the Many
3 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf
18 creatures

2 Bant Charm
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Natural Order
2 Ponder
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
23 other spells

Sideboard
1 Empyrial Archangel
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Krosan Grip
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Relic of Progenitus
15 sideboard cards

[BantFTW]

Yeah, I bet on him that he would make atleast top 32 xD
And I was right, I played his deck before but without bant charms, I think they are to slow.
and against zoo idk but I think he had luck or something because it's a hard matchup...

[Tarmogoyf]

Stoneforge Mystic is a good idea for Bant Aggro !!!

GP Madrid, Deck Tech: Mystic Control (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpmad10/day2#13)

Mystic Control by Luis Scott-Vargas

4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Mutavault
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
21 lands

4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
12 creatures

4 Aether Vial
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Ponder
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Umezawa's Jitte
27 other spells

Sideboard
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Meddling Mage
2 Path to Exile
3 Tormod's Crypt
15 sideboard cards

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=33414

Mystic EquiBant 116 people

creature [16]
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

instant [15]
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

sorcery [2]
2 Ponder

enchantment [2]
2 Threads of Disloyalty

artifact [4]
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Umezawa's Jitte

land [21]
4 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Mutavault
1 Plains
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
60 cards

Sideboard:
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Krosan Grip
4 Path to Exile
3 Wash Out
4 Tormod's Crypt
15 cards

[Tarmogoyf]

2010-04-01 decklist updated (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16059-[Deck]-Bant-Aggro-and-Pro-Bant&p=415971&viewfull=1#post415971)

[alphacat]

2010-04-01 decklist updated (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16059-[Deck]-Bant-Aggro-and-Pro-Bant&p=415971&viewfull=1#post415971)

Looks like the top lists have started to exclude NO-Pro combo in favor of a more solid creature base.

Do people think that being more consistant gives more wins compared to the games No-Pro can steal?

[luckme10]

If you look at the apathy house prices on natural order, you'll see there was a really large spike in prices last month which has since subsided: http://apathyhouse.com/pricelist/pricelist.php?card=Natural+Order&x=0&y=0#

[menace13]

Stoneforge is really good, just finished top 5 on MTGO Classic Challenge 4/11/10(24 man) with MysticBant-Legacy legal list- and that card is powerful.
Went 5-0 in matches, but scrubbed out top 8 vs Oath on g3(Oath and Tinkers are brutal). The list was made the other night with input from a few friends online and no testing, this thread is largely responsible for me picking the deck and the meta online is rather predictable -Merfolk,ANT,Oath,Bazaar Ichorid- and i sided for them as a result. I maindecked Selkie for the Draw vs Merf,Oath and ANT, loved that thing dearly. I am considering running a MysticBant list for the Legacy dailys(the Legacy PE did not fire) and the meta is all mainly Gobs,Zoo,Countertop w/ NO and some splashes of Animator,Merfolk,Dredge and ANT. Any insight would be very helpful.

[Land] 19

4 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Savannah
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Windswept Heath

[Artifact] 7

4 Æther Vial
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

[Creature] 18

3 Cold-Eyed Selkie
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Rhox War Monk
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Trygon Predator

[Instants] 16

4 Brainstorm
2 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
3 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard

3 Counterbalance-ANT is a beast with Y Will and Tutors, but did not see it once-
1 Dominating Licid
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Nature's Claim
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Faced Zoo,Ichorid,Ichorid,Oath and had a 1st round bye(Standard drafter w/ 80 card Std Zvi Mythic Bant deck, nice guy too).

I really want to run some concoction of Stoneforge and Vials for the next DE, just so fun tutoring up Jitt and Mystic-Vialing it in.

[JadeOberg]

I just picked up this deck after playing Zoo and Rock for 8 months. I was tired of losing to combo but still wanted to keep the aggro frame of mind. I absolutely loved it, playing it blind without testing into a 35 man tournament I was able to top 8 with a record of 4-1, then losing in the quaterfinals 1-2 to Reanimator. I really feel like this deck is well positioned in the current meta. It is not an auto lose to any deck and has several good matchups. I'll give a brief tourney report here.

Match 1 BR Gobos
Game 1- Daze his early stuff and let warmonk goyf get there.
Game 2- Active Jitte for the win
1-0 2-0-0

Match 2 Reliquary Rock
Game 1-I get greedy and fetch two nonbasics, lose to wastelock and armageddon
Game 2- Get some dudes out, Counter his good stuff. Win
Game 3- I had this game, made a huge combat error that left me with no creatures after his double removal spells. Topdeck mode and he finds what he needs before I do. He also hade crucible/horizon canopy going shoftly after with a top.
1-1 3-2-0

Match 3 Berserk Stompy
Game 1- Two for one him with swords, spell pierce a berserk, Goyf and Pridemage all the way.
Game 2- Active Jitte wins me the game. He did Berserk me for 20, but Jitte with two counters kept me alive.

2-1 4-2-0

Match 4 Reanimator
Game1- I'm able to counter away his reanimation spells. He does land a blazing achron which gets sworded. Goyf Warmonk for the win. Oh, Sylvan Library was nuts in this match up.
Game 2- I side in 3 Meddling Mage, 4 Crypts, 1 Relic (should be 3 and 2) and a spell pierce. Meddling mage shuts off his reanimation spell and I get there easily with Meddling mage and Warmonk.

3-1 6-2-0

Match 5 Counter-Top Zur the Enchanter.
Game 1- A friend of mine with a great build that has had a lot of success with. We are both 3-1 playing to make top 8. He gets land screwed and scoops early.
Game 2- A lot of back and forth. Really good magic, answering each other continuously, he eventually Resolves Zurr at about turn 15 and does his thing for the win.
Game 3- Sylvan Library won me this game. Back and forth again. Probably the most fun game of Magic I have ever played and best as well. I was able to draw 4 extra cards off of Sylvan which ended up being the difference. A jitte on Warmonk finished him after he Threads of Disloyalty my goyf.

4-1 8-3-0

Top 8 Quaterfinal Reanimator.
Game 1- There were 7 Reanimator decks at this 35 person tourney. 2 made top 8. Game one he does his thing with Iona and I dont have any counter magic.
Game 2-Lock him out with double Meddling Mage for the win.
Game 3- I keep a one lander with daze, Crypt, double spell pierce. Dont draw a land for 9 turns and lose. Definately feel I could have made it a good game with one more land. He null rods my Crypt and relic. hahaha

4-2 9-5-0

My list

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Noble Heirarch
3x Qasili Pridemage
3x Rhox War Monk
2x Trygon Predator
2x Stoneforge Mystic

2x Jitte

2x Sylvan Library

4x Force of Will
3x Daze
4x Brainstorm
3x Spell Pierce
1x Ponder
4x Swords

9x Fetches
7x Duals
3x basics

SB
3x Meddling Mage
4x Crypts
1x Relic (should be 2 and 3
3x Pithing Needle
1x Spell Pierce
1x Rhox Warmonk
2x Engineered Explosives

I did not side in EE once, Definately going to add another Meddling Mage, maybe take out an EE. I really would like to add a third sylvan, its boss with all the lifegain in this deck.
Meta breakdown from what I remember.

7x Reanimator
4x BGW Rock
1x Zoo
2x Merfolk
3x Gobos
2x Lands
2x Ant
4x Iona (rock shell and Bant)
1x Stompy
2x Canadian Thresh
1x Stax
3x Dredge
1x Zurr
1x MUC
xx rogue builds
Suprising low number of Counter top and Zoo. Top 8 were 3 Rock builds, 2 Reanimators, Legacy Vengevine, Bant Aggro, Ninja Faeries?

[menace13]

Hey nice list and congrats on the finish.I just ran up another top 8(split in finals to 2nd) on MTGO Classic last weekend with Bant Aggro(tho it is more Selkie strike with Vials -since Null Rod is dead w/o Vaults and jewelry-).Played vs Merfolk like 4 or 5 times i don't even remember anymore it was so bad, same list as my last post -1 Mystic -1 Vial -1 Relic for 2 Prides and 3rd Daze and sb switch from Leylines(hated mulling to oblivion and not being able to cast-tho they did win a few Ichorid mus-) to Relic/Crypt split.

I wouldn't go for the 3rd Library because i do not like to see the 2nd unless it's off the one in play already-most zoo lists play 2 and we also get Ponder/Bstorm, while i agree the life gain in a deck with RWM, exalted triggers and (4) Jitte is good.

Pridemage is better in almost every mu to me than Predator is; Exalted,Does not have to survive and connect and is 2 turns faster. The only nod Predator gets is under a CBalance it may resolve and the obligatory pitches to FoW. I have not tested the Animator mu at all with this thing, but i do play vs Oath a ton and i use Dominating Licid(my Vials are set to 3) if they do not name Blue.

[rsaunder]

i do play vs Oath a ton and i use Dominating Licid(my Vials are set to 3) if they do not name Blue. That seems largely irrelevant in legacy since oath is banned.

[menace13]

That seems largely irrelevant in legacy since oath is banned.

Animator plays Iona and it can also grab Sphinx,Terastodon and Archon for w/e reason they may play it however unlikely that they should, Licid is also a proactive measure in that Iona can not land on the board now.
Yes, Oath is banned. Was i speaking on how to combat Oath the enchantment or deck??/ Iona was what i mentioned Licid being my answer for. Ty k buhbye

[Salogy]

That seems largely irrelevant in legacy since oath is banned.

The licid in the sb is also good vs, you guessed it, other creature decks. It's a different type of shackles for decks that run less islands and do run vials.

I've seen the Dominating Licid steal goyfs or lords away in matches. Do not underestimate this creature as a one-of in the sideboard. The licid also creates cute combat tricks by first blocking and then stealing a creature to effectively fog two creatures a turn after it is cast. If anything, the licid pitches to FoW.

[menace13]

The licid in the sb is also good vs, you guessed it, other creature decks. It's a different type of shackles for decks that run less islands and do run vials.

I've seen the Dominating Licid steal goyfs or lords away in matches. Do not underestimate this creature as a one-of in the sideboard. The licid also creates cute combat tricks by first blocking and then stealing a creature to effectively fog two creatures a turn after it is cast. If anything, the licid pitches to FoW.

Stop stalking my replays you cyber stalker.....:wink:

[OMG2L84U]

to JadeOberg

Can you post or Pm me the Vengevine Legacy decklist if you have it ^^

Good Job for your results

[Roc Star]

I have been testing a Bant list that includes Reveillark as a card advantage/finisher piece. It has been running pretty smoothly, let me know what you think.

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Reveillark
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Sower of Temptation
1x Eternal Witness

4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Daze
2x Wipe Away
1x Primal Command

4x Misty Rainforest
4x Windswept Heath
4x Tropical Island
2x Savannah
2x Tundra
3x Island
2x Forest
1x Plains

[JadeOberg]

Had a weekly Legacy tournament with 20plus participants. Went 2-2, missing top eight. Same list as above except -1 ponder -1 trygon +1 warmonk +1 vendillion clique. Added another Meddling Mage to the board as well.

Match 1 Reanimator
He blows me out game one. Game two I get with Meddling Mages going in for the kill while locking him out. Game three was very close, I was able to get him to 1 life before he stabalized and crushed me with big dudes. Null rod blows out my board.

0-1 1-2

Match 2 Monoblack Control "trainwreck"?

Game one he ends up scooping in the 12 turn or so. He had been keeping himself alive with Staff of Dom with double urborg for 4 turns. Game two took forever. I should have scooped earlier as he eventually beat me after 30 minutes of back and forth. Game three. Unfortunately we played very quickly and he was able to beat me on the fifth turn of Time with a 8/8 Korlash.

0-2 2-4

Match 3 UWB Countertop

Game one he isn't able to resolve a threat and eventually my dudes get there. He scooped up after game one, dissappointed with his deck.

1-2 4-4

Match 4 UWB Countertop
I don't remember the details of this match but it went to three games, Pithing needles were great on his tops, and Sylvan Library drew me a ton of cards. Two UWB countertops in a row?

2-2 6-5-0

Observations. Trygon Predator is not as good a Pridemage. He is coming out and a fourth QP is coming in for that "instant" removal. 4th warmonk back to the board. Going to try a Sower of temptation in his place. Sideboard is going to be retooled. I'm going to try leylines and/or macabre. Null rod kills my GY hate. I feel like 1 stone forge out and 1 jitte out as well and send a jitte to the board. Not sure though. It was annoying as I hardly saw counterspells in my opening hands, so I don't want to change to much until I get more results.

[menace13]

Observations. Trygon Predator is not as good a Pridemage. He is coming out and a fourth QP is coming in for that "instant" removal. 4th warmonk back to the board. Going to try a Sower of temptation in his place. Sideboard is going to be retooled. I'm going to try leylines and/or macabre. Null rod kills my GY hate. I feel like 1 stone forge out and 1 jitte out as well and send a jitte to the board. Not sure though. It was annoying as I hardly saw counterspells in my opening hands, so I don't want to change to much until I get more results.

Predator is still good, but better in board for g2-3 where additional cleanup is needed. I wouldn't get rid of it even as a single copy being it has evasion for your equips and does enough to improve match ups. The problem with Leyline is not having any way to cast it and against animator, Macabre still works really well limiting their lines of play around it and shutting of bounce and destroy spells. Stifle-almost never played-,Needle x2 in most lists and Discard-troublesome-, tho i guess they could with a single target in yard cast Exhume and wait for the Macab trigger to play Entomb after it resolves with Exhume left on stack.

I like the mystic-equip package with 1 of each sword or at very least SoFI(most flyers tend to be blue) adding Sowers and Clique plays into this well. Funny you said the counterspell in openers was an issue, I have had the same feeling(10 sounded good in theory). Vintage Noble Fish usually plays the same exact 4/3/3 suite w/o 4 Bstorm and/or Ponders. I would like to try adding Ponder as well, but haven't found room. Bant decks are highly customizable; Elspeth and Jace,NOrder,gazillion sb options... etc. Anything in UU,GG and WW, those colors can be played and utilized to good effect with the help of Noble color fixing, as the lists demonstrate in their variability in showings.

[Tarmogoyf]

DeckCheck 2010-06-07

Bant Aggro
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35655
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35651
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35635
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35260
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35086
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35073
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34939
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34921
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34599
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34587
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34429
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34425
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34421
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34280
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34236

Pro Bant
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35902
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35670
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35648
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35262
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35112
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34943
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34926
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34827
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34634
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34629
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34475
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34433

[Tarmogoyf]

NO Bant
A Legacy Magic deck, by Jim Orr
2nd place at a StarCityGames.com $5,000 Legacy Open tournament in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, United States on 2010-06-06

Maindeck:

Artifacts
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Trygon Predator

Enchantments
3 Counterbalance

Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force Of Will
4 Swords To Plowshares

Legendary Artifacts
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Legendary Creatures
1 Progenitus

Sorceries
3 Natural Order

Basic Lands
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Plains

Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Windswept Heath

Land Creatures
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard:
3 Relic Of Progenitus
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Sower Of Temptation
1 Trygon Predator
1 Counterbalance
2 Krosan Grip
2 Path To Exile
2 Spell Pierce

[Tarmogoyf]

.

[JadeOberg]

Another weekly done tonight. 25 players. Went 2-2, happily though. I was satisfied with how the deck performed...the pilot on the other hand... Beat ANT and Reanimater. Losing to Sligh and Gobos

Reanimater

g1 He gets a quick Iona
g2 Double Meddling Mage to lock out his reanimation spells, he doesn't find the bounce in time.
g3 I get some early beats going, counter his careful study, Meddling Mage gets reanimate. Exalted beats get there.

I tried a new strategy against Rean by countering his graveyard fillers. I like countering Careful study because he isn't able to see the two free cards either... I think this might be better than waiting for them to attempt reanimate. Meddling Mage is such a house in this match up.
1-0 2-1-0

R/W Sligh Landfall creatures and burn. FAST clock

g1 He gets a steppe lynx hits double landfall two turns in a row. I have two goyfs on the table but with his burn and Grim Lavamancer he gets me. Came down to one turn
g2 He goes Goblin guide x 2 and a steppe lynx as I have a goyf on the field. He goes for the fireblast to kill goyf but I counter it. Stick a jitte on goyf and go to work.
g3 He keeps me from an active jitte despite getting warmonk into play and burns me out....sick fast clock.

I have the deck tuned as well as I can for this matchup...Nothing in the sideboard for it. Comes down to play or draw I think.
1-1 3-3-0



ANT

g1 He doesn't find his combo pieces in time and allows me to land a warmonk turn 2 and find counterspells.
g2 Meddling mage names tendrils. I get him down to 4 life. He slaugher pacts my mage, I counter, then he goes off and curfews it before tendrils. I have no more Counter spells after a duress.
g3 He mulls to 5. I see 3 force of wills in my top 11 cards. Warmonk gets me into safety range.

Warmonk is a bomb in this matchup. I love it. Making his job harder the entire time. Meddling Mage is great here too obviously. Game two I think the correct call would have been for me to let him pact my mage, the spell pierce when he tries to cast Adn. Only the 3rd game ive ever played against ant, so still learning.

2-1 5-4-0


rb Gobos

G1 ring leader into ring leader into ring leader
g2 I draw some STPs, like 4 exalted creatures and a goyf. Counter his relevant stuff. Goyf FTW
g3 Pilot error costed me the top 8. Fetched incorrectly turn 1...unable to cast heirarch...fail....tear...then a wasteland and I dont draw any more lands for 7 turns... plenty of time for him to fine a goblin......he did mull to five and was topdecking lands as much as I was not.

2-2 6-6-0

meta was 2 gobos, 4 reanimate, enchantress, 2 rock, 1 ant, 3 dredge, 3 zoo/sligh, faeries, 3 bant, x other

4 goyf 4 Nh 4 qp 4 rwm 1 sower 1 clique 2sfm
2 jitte 1 sylvan lib
4 fow 4 brainstorm 3 spellpierce 4stp 3daze
19 land
4 mm 2fae maca 2 crypt 2 relic 1 grip 1 spell pierce 3 needles

Love the board right now. Playing in a large Black Lotus tourney on Sat. Not sure what I will play, Zoo seems good right now....I dont know how I can gear this deck up any more for aggro....suggestions?

[menace13]

@Jade- Going for a 3/3 split with RWM and KotR(9 fetches looks decent) seems like a good place to start, could try replacing the Clique and Predators. You give up evasion for creatures that give and take more damage, don't die to bolt/Spout. Not any better beaters in bant colors for 3cc. New Horizons also plays Terravore, something maybe to look into even if i prefer KotR personaly( easier to pump since we have no way to take their land out).

As for the event on Saturday, good luck and I don't think Mystical Tutor will be put down just yet. Untill the 1st, hate for Ant and Animator are prolly good bets to hedge. Also check out Mossivo's UGW Tempo thread for ideas as well it plays a Bant Aggro shell with Wastelands.

[royal]

Hi,

Do you think it's a good idea to run Counterbalance and Top in addition to Natural Order and Progenitus? What are the pros and cons of this combination? Now that Mystical Tutor is banned a lot of people are expecting a meta full of aggro and fast combo decks like belcher. Could cbtop help us here?

[royal]

Hi,

i hope you forgive me for pushing this thread but i´m still very interested in the answer of my question. What do you think is better: With or without CB/Top ?

Thanks a lot!

[Grillo]

Hi... I just started to play this archetype and I have to say it's very good and fun to play!

@royal: sorry I'm not answering your question, but I don't have experience with the deck :(

I went to a small 12 man tourney last night and went 2-0-2 and felt really good because I just needed a couple more turns to win the two tied matches! I'm still playing too slow because I don't know the deck too well.

I won against Zoo and Reanimator and tied to Thopter Combo and another Zoo. This is my list (its copied. I'll be adjusting it to my local meta):

creature [17]
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Rhox War Monk
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

instant [18]
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

sorcery [3]
3 Ponder

enchantment [2]
2 Sylvan Library

artifact [2]
2 Umezawa's Jitte

land [18]
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest

60 cards

Sideboard:
1 Lightning Greaves
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Trygon Predator
1 Krosan Grip
3 Path to Exile
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Faerie Macabre

15 cards

I also know the sideboard is sloppy. But it's a start ;)


Very short report:

Round 1: Zoo (win 2-1)
G1: He gets the beats going on and I don't draw Monks or Jittes.
G2: I have a Monk with Lightning Greaves and a Tarmo with Jitte. I Sword and Path his creatures. Thats game.
G3: Slower game, but eventually Jitte gets the job done.

Round 2: Thopter combo (tie 1-1)
G1: I play around Swords and Engineered explosives and win pretty fast. I don't see any combo parts so I don't know what he's playing.
G2: I board in artifact control because I saw the Explosives. Turned out to be a good choice even if I lost this game. Slow game with me beating him down for a while. But he eventually combos out because I don't draw the hate.
G3: We both draw hate, but my deck is faster. We go to turns and tie with him at 4 life with lethal on the table for next turn... damn.

Round 3: Reanimator (win 2-1)
G1: He reanimates Iona on white on his first turn on the play without knowing what I'm playing.... My hand has Swords and nothing else relevant. I scoop on the spot.
G2: I draw a hand of 6 lands and a Relic... mmmm mull. Next hand is barely ok but doesn't have any hate...... mull. My next hand has 2 lands Qasali Pridemage, Faerie Macabre and something I don't remember. Good enough!! He tries to reanimate Iona AGAIN on his first turn on the play. But I have the Faerie now and thwart his plans. Then I topdeck like a champ and win.
G3: I have lots of counters and hate and win easily.

Round 4: Zoo (tie 1-1)
G1: Just like round 1. He just beats me.
G2: Long game. Jittes and Monks rule.
G3: We go to turns and we tie while I have the advantage.

Overall I think the deck is great. Very resourceful and hard to beat. Noble Hierarchs are the awesome! Monks and Jittes too. Well I know every body knows that, but still ;)

I'm also curious about getting some Natural Orders to try to seal games faster. What do you guys recommend??

[Shugyosha]

Hi,

Do you think it's a good idea to run Counterbalance and Top in addition to Natural Order and Progenitus? What are the pros and cons of this combination? Now that Mystical Tutor is banned a lot of people are expecting a meta full of aggro and fast combo decks like belcher. Could cbtop help us here?

I played CounterTop for a long time and now switched to Bant. Instead of the Control elements NO/Prog. and Stoneforge/Equipment are much better to win a wide variety of matchups. Regardless what you play main I would recommend to play Meddling Mages sideboard as they are really good against the now more diverse combodecks and decks which will get stroger due to the recent bannings, like Loam for example.

I thoroughly tested my build below and went 4-1 in a tournament so far (nothing special). NO/Prog wins much more games than Equipment but a Mystic or Equipment turned quite some games around and Sword of Fire and Ice never disappoints in the Merfolk Matchup.

3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Island

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
1 Progenitus
2 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Natural Order
4 Path to Exile
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Krosan Grip
3 Meddling Mage
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle

Path to Exile is absolutely superior in this build as I see Bant as an aggrodeck which, like Zoo, doesn't want to run Swords unless absolutely necessary. I ran Canopy as 3-of at first but it was to much. As a 2-of it is perfect however.

[michaelq]

Is path really better here? You are running 4 dazes maindeck. Against goblin, Merfolk and in the bant mirror, I would think giving them land would be less desirable than giving them a life - especially early-on.

[mossivo1986]

I played CounterTop for a long time and now switched to Bant. Instead of the Control elements NO/Prog. and Stoneforge/Equipment are much better to win a wide variety of matchups. Regardless what you play main I would recommend to play Meddling Mages sideboard as they are really good against the now more diverse combodecks and decks which will get stroger due to the recent bannings, like Loam for example.

I thoroughly tested my build below and went 4-1 in a tournament so far (nothing special). NO/Prog wins much more games than Equipment but a Mystic or Equipment turned quite some games around and Sword of Fire and Ice never disappoints in the Merfolk Matchup.

3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Island

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
1 Progenitus
2 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Natural Order
4 Path to Exile
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Krosan Grip
3 Meddling Mage
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle

Path to Exile is absolutely superior in this build as I see Bant as an aggrodeck which, like Zoo, doesn't want to run Swords unless absolutely necessary. I ran Canopy as 3-of at first but it was to much. As a 2-of it is perfect however.

Your kidding me right?

Path completely negates the reason to play daze, when both are in the maindeck and 4 of's. Swords is strictly better for aggro control anyways.

[Shugyosha]

No the reason I run Path is that I need it mostly during mid/lategame. In aggromatches I counter early threats and or simply trump them with mine. In matches against aggrocontrol both play around Daze anyways and the big threats don't hit play early.

Later on path become much better than Swords because I can end games more quickly. I'm playing this list for some while now and I never wanted to switch. There have been occasions where I needed to use Path first turn but there have been far more occasions where no lifegain meant the difference between winning and losing the race.
Also the extra land is far less important for Daze than people say. Sure an extra land too early is quite good for the opponent but it doesn't make Daze just dead 100% on the spot. Legacy itself is too fast and manabases too tight.

[CaptShetz]

Turn 1 Lackey really begs for swords over path.

Besides, what are you using swords on that makes progenitus so much slower? Ramping your opponent is really not a good idea. You aren't Zoo where lifegain turns into card advantage because you have a burn finish. You bash with huge monsters. A little life one way or the other isn't going to matter much. One mana one way or the other probably will.

[Shugyosha]

Turn 1 Lackey really begs for swords over path.

Besides, what are you using swords on that makes progenitus so much slower? Ramping your opponent is really not a good idea. You aren't Zoo where lifegain turns into card advantage because you have a burn finish. You bash with huge monsters. A little life one way or the other isn't going to matter much. One mana one way or the other probably will.

Swords makes the clock slower, whether it is Progenitus or your other creatures. Would you rather give the opponent a basic land or another card? Most of the times it comes down to exactly this question as swords gives the opponent enough life for another draw. There are many decks I would gladly give the land instead of the card.

In creature-heavy matches like Goblins it's the plan to get to Jitte/SoFaI ASAP anyways. My Goblin matchup is good thanks to the equipment. There are many more answers to Lackey than Path and you get the Swords out of the board specifically for matchups where you likely use removal early so the list plays Path only exclusively in the first game.

[Eddy Wally]

Did anybody try out a build with more planeswalkers instead of Progenitus or equipment? I play with a single Jitte, but also two Elspeths, a Jace TMS and a Garruk. The Garruk is a recent addition which hasn't been tried in a tournament yet.

[CaptShetz]

I ran three Jace TMS in a Bant Aggro/Tempo deck at GP Columbus over equipment/Prog, and it worked out really well (57th/1300). Elspeth was in the board vs control decks and other decks running Moat. Jace was an all star and easily responsible for many wins vs a wide variety of decks, from Goblins to Zoo to Countertop to Landstill.

3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Rhox War Monk
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard
2 Hydroblast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Meddling Mage
1 Path to Exile
1 Rhox War Monk
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Spell Pierce

[baghdadbob]

I actually completely agree with Shugyosha (not sure spelled right) I much prefer running the paths instead of swords.
A) We are not trying to mana screw them as in with New Horizons.
B) We are the beat down and should continue to do as such.
C) Much better late mid-late game.
D) The only time i'm pathing on turn one is against a lackey, and we have the upper hand on them anyways.

[_erbs_]

I played CounterTop for a long time and now switched to Bant. Instead of the Control elements NO/Prog. and Stoneforge/Equipment are much better to win a wide variety of matchups. Regardless what you play main I would recommend to play Meddling Mages sideboard as they are really good against the now more diverse combodecks and decks which will get stroger due to the recent bannings, like Loam for example.

I thoroughly tested my build below and went 4-1 in a tournament so far (nothing special). NO/Prog wins much more games than Equipment but a Mystic or Equipment turned quite some games around and Sword of Fire and Ice never disappoints in the Merfolk Matchup.

3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Island

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
1 Progenitus
2 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Natural Order
4 Path to Exile
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Krosan Grip
3 Meddling Mage
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle

Path to Exile is absolutely superior in this build as I see Bant as an aggrodeck which, like Zoo, doesn't want to run Swords unless absolutely necessary. I ran Canopy as 3-of at first but it was to much. As a 2-of it is perfect however.

Hello,
How has this deck working for you ?; i've tried a similar build but found it hard to get the equipment engine online. I know i have a completely different build than yours. One of the biggest part of your build that i don't use anymore are the ponders. I know with ponders you could get the NO combo much faster.

I switched to silhana bec. against zoo the equipment engine will never go online most of the time unless the zoo player has a no burn / removal spells in his hand which is not likely to happen everytime.

My build runs 4 silhana as the equipment engine and no daze's nor fow. As for protection i use 4 spell pierce and 3 vendilion cliques.

[GrAsH]

Hi, I played Bant Aggro last Saturday for a "FTV: Relics draft" for the top 6, where played 12 players. I finished 2-2, 4th place with this more aggro build:

Lands
1 Plains
2 Island
1 Forest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island

Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Rhox War Monk
1 Trygon Predator
1 Rafiq of the Many

Spells
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
1 Rhox War Monk
2 Path to Exile
3 Spell Pierce
2 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives

I'm very satisfied with this build. Puts the pressure early and this deck is beast in topdeck mode imo.

And Rafiq of the Many is a beastly creature. This is the tournament short reports:

1st Round 2-1
Zoo

1st match - I put the pressure early with T1 Noble Hierarch, T2 RWM, which he casts a Grim Lavamancer and then paths RWM. I daze it and play Espeth T3. I keep playing creatures, bigger than his Nacatls, Qasalis, etc. GG
2nd match - He plays first with a Steppe Lynx, which I cannot have removal for some turns. I play my creatures normally but Lynx took me to low life early when he hits me down with Fireblast, Chains and Bolts. No counters.
3rd match - T1 Noble Hierarch, T2 another Noble and Mystic, fetch Jitte. He some turns later plays Jitte too, I gain life, and keep playing creatures, including three Goyfs and a Rafiq. When I draw another Jitte, I play it, equip it to one Goyf, I do a relentless assault xD GG.

2nd Round 1-2
Merfolk

1st match - He plays first, Vial T1 which he plays fishes via Vial, I couldn't do nothing.
2nd match - Hierarch, RWM, Rafiq, Jitte. GG
3rd match - I lost because of a single daze, bah. He plays Vial, which I Force. Next turn he plays another vial. Ok... let's go. Some turns later, he has the board with many fishes with my life to about 20 due to RWM: 1 Reejerey, 2 Adepts, 1 Mutavault and 2 Coralhelm Commander (one level up to 4, the other to 1) and I'm praying for drawing a Explosives. Not a single one, just a Swords in hand. He says he's gonna attack and vials a Lord of Atlantis. With a RWM tapped, a Goyf 4/5, 2 Qasalis, 2 Nobles, he dies next turn. I Swords his LoA to plan defend his Reejerey with Goyf, he dazes with two mana. I look at my mana and hand. I daze his daze by returning a Tropical Island to hand. He dazed again and my face becomes -____________- oh well GG

3rd Round 2-0
Some sort of Zoo but with black

1st match - For each turn since the first, Noble Hierarch, Noble Hierarch, RWM, Qasali, Elspeth, and he keeps mana screwed. GG.
2nd match - He plays Lynx, Grim Lavamancer, Figure of Destiny and Birds of Paradise. Ok, Explosives for 1. I play my creatures normally and the game ends quickly with a Rafiq.

4th Round 0-2
Merfolks

He asks me if I can draw, which I respond to him that I can't. If I did, in the end I would became 3rd in the tournament, but I would try to win this game so I could draft the Mox Diamond (obviously).

1st match - THAT DAMN VIAL. Cursecatcher, Adept, Commander and LoA crushed me. Swords, where are you?...
2nd match - This game keeps long, and was a fun game. I was able to Daze one Vial, then some turns later he plays another. Then he plays Jitte and I prays for Mystic or Jitte, or even Krosan Grip. I draws the last mentioned. But I was in a dillemma and with anxiety I made a mistake which has costed me the game, I think: I plays Grip in my turn, not waiting for him to equip and wasting him a turn (where he leveled a Coralhelm). Wasteland takes my single Tundra, then I draws a Swords -________- End of story, my Vendilion Clique became my wall for Coralhelm, but I couldn't resist his army.

Well, overall I'm very satisfied with my build, but I had bad luck with the first Merfolks and anxiety with the seconds (He won the tournament and was first to draft the FTV, drafted Mox Diamond of course). In the end, I returned home 4th and with a Sol Ring and a Mirari. (the first 6 draftes were Mox -> Vial -> Sword of Body and Mind -> Sol Ring (me) -> Black Vise -> Karn, then returned to the winner and in the second draft round I keep a Mirari).

Meta was : 4 Merfolk, 2 Reanimator, 2 Zoo, 1 Bant (me), 1 Seismic Loam and 2 other decks which I cannot remember.
Would you make some changes to the list? Thanks for your oppinion, I really love this deck.

[Shugyosha]

Hello,
How has this deck working for you ?; i've tried a similar build but found it hard to get the equipment engine online. I know i have a completely different build than yours. One of the biggest part of your build that i don't use anymore are the ponders. I know with ponders you could get the NO combo much faster.

I switched to silhana bec. against zoo the equipment engine will never go online most of the time unless the zoo player has a no burn / removal spells in his hand which is not likely to happen everytime.

My build runs 4 silhana as the equipment engine and no daze's nor fow. As for protection i use 4 spell pierce and 3 vendilion cliques.

There is no reason to ever cut Force of Will from this deck. You have to play it or you should play Zoo. Ponder also instrumental to the consistency of the deck as well as growing Goyf.

Equipment is slow and eats up mana but it's worth it. There are situations where I play a Stoneforge Mystic, search a equipment and not play it for several turns however as I need the mana for more creatures. Its the spell that tilts boardpresence in your favor but in order to do that you need to establish a presence on the board first.

[_erbs_]

There is no reason to ever cut Force of Will from this deck. You have to play it or you should play Zoo. Ponder also instrumental to the consistency of the deck as well as growing Goyf.

Equipment is slow and eats up mana but it's worth it. There are situations where I play a Stoneforge Mystic, search a equipment and not play it for several turns however as I need the mana for more creatures. Its the spell that tilts boardpresence in your favor but in order to do that you need to establish a presence on the board first.

Yeah its slow and will cause a big tempo loss if it gets bolted / removed during the time you equip it, thats why i switched to silhana. As for Fow's and daze, against aggro decks they sometimes they feel they are a liability lossing 2 cards for 1 via force and for daze loosing a mana. Against aggro decks estabilishing board position is hard if you have to pitch a blue card and a land. Lets say that the blue card is not a creature card thats good but it still a resource lost.

Another thing that really hurts at times are the control magic effects of shackles, sower, etc.

I haven't playtested this build but i will soon as i could fill the last remaining slots. Maybe you have tips since we almost play a similar deck theme. My current build..

CREATURES [18]
4 noble hierarch
2 stoneforge mystic
4 tarmogoyf
3 qasali pridemage
4 rhox war monk
1 progenitus

SPELLS [19]
4 brainstorm
3 counterbalance
3 sensei's divinning top
4 swords to plowshares
2 umezawa's jitte
3 natural order

LANDS [19]
1 savannah
3 tundra
4 tropical island
2 flooded strand
3 misty rainforest
2 windswept heath
2 island
1 forest
1 plains

4 slots ???
current choices:
FOR CREATURES
• silhana ledge walker - shroud + evasion + food to NO
• river boa - islandwalk + regen + food to NO
• coiling oracle - extra draw + food to NO & FoW
• trygon predator - evasion + eats artifact & enchantment + food to NO & FoW
• gea's skyfolk - evasion+ food to NO & FoW

FOR SPELLS
• ponder
• pte
• accumulated knowledge
• cb

Planned SB
4 force of will
3 spell pierce
4 ghostly prison
2 relic of progenitus / 2 control magic / sower of temptation
2 tormods crypt / 2 krosan grip

[sporenfrosch1411]

I currently test out to play with:
4 Nimble Mongoose (perfect target for natural order and alternatively a good beater)
4 Natural Order (there is almost no game in which i dont want to draw it, i play the Archangel + Progenitus so there allways is a target)
4 Noble Hierarch (provides me the mana, ramps fast, enables turn 3 Order, keeps your Tarmogoyf bigger than your opponent's Tarmogoyf is)
2 Qasali Pridemage (they suck versus zoo, are mediocre versus Merfolk....... and i have another 2 in the sideboard if needed)
2 Ponder (since you have no other sorcery, this keeps your tarmo big and also is just good card quality, it is Brainstorm 5 and 6 one could say)
1 Empyrial Archangel (there is so much aggro, many times this angel is better than progenitus for me)
1 Progenitus (well.....classic)
4 Spell Pierce (you just need maximum Counter-Backup to get Order resolved, it is only 1 blue mana and keeps Daze and FoW away from you :) )

The rest is pretty much a standard list (without Counterbalance/Top ofcourse)

What do you think about my "different" choices :) ?

[BantFTW]

I played the same in an aggro meta and normally I woudn't play mongoose but he can't be the target so quite good^^

[Shugyosha]

As the last two posters didn't notice: This thread is not for Counter/Top Decks. There is another thread for these decks.

On other note, I went 5-0 with my build yesterday.

1. Round (Elves): It was a bad GW build and I had Stoneforge Mystic turn 2 in both games.

2. and 4. Round (Aggro Loam): A difficult matchup that is usually won by resolving Natural Order. The problem is to find it and build up mana for it before they kill you. In these two rounds three of my four wins were achieved by Progenitus although I would have been able to win one game just with the stuff I have drawn in the turns I played NO and attacked. Luckily I never saw Burning Wish as I know one of the decks plays Damnation in the board so it can get rid of Progenitus.

Postboard Needles, Grips, Grunts and Explosives really help a lot to keep Seismic Assault and friends in check. I consider Assault the most dangerous card in the match.

Round 3 (GW Death and Taxes): He got Mother of Runes online with a Sword of Body and Mind. As I said early and still believe the new Sword is really really good and it proved itself. I needed a Stoneforge Mystic with Jitte and a Path to Exile to deal with his board and crush him while I countered his removal spells. Jittecounters finally got rid of everything but not until he hit me 2-3 times. I would have lost the game without Mystic in Jitte. Game two is a long drawn out game as he draws bad cards and my superior force (Goyf+Jitte) is stopped by Gaddock Teeg+Karakas. He slowly gets the Mangara Lock online while trying not to die or grant counters to my Jitte but he still has not much power on the table so I can set up fetchland>Dryad Arbor>Order and win in Extraturn 4 although I would have won anyways as he couldn't kill me and I won game one.

Round 4: See above

Round 5 (Survival Bant): One of the few bad matchups. Preboard it is really hard to win but I got him after an epic fight. Our boards were swamped with creatures and a Progenitus but he had a Peacekeeper. I countered all his winning silverbullets, kept Survival off board with Natural Order into Pridemage and finally found two Path to get rid of Peacekeeper through his FOW. Game two went to time but we still played it out and he won by beating me down with 2xexalted Trygon Predator over a stalled board. Flying creatures are still one of the decks weak points as I can't run Vendilion Cliques and Pridemage fits the curve and role better than Predator.


3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Progenitus
2 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Natural Order
4 Path to Exile
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Jotun Grunt
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Spell Pierce


The Academy Ruins + 2 EE sideboard were a test but I never needed to use it. Once I could get a destroyed Jitte but already won before getting it back. Still its very nice to be able to get Equipment back as most decks nowadays can handle Artifacts even Preboard.
I will test it further but I guess but will likely cut 1 EE and 1 Crypt for one Relic and something else I need. Probably more Loamhate as I have to play against it all the time.
The mainboard however is fine as it is. Again path to Exile over Swords prved to be fantastic shortening several games by 1-2 turns.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Path to Exile + Daze?
Go for Swords to Plowshares instead. This has been discusses so often, i can't understand how ppl still make this mistake. Giving your opponent the mana, then asking him to pay 1 more, that just won't work for your counterplan.


Also:

As the last two posters didn't notice: This thread is not for Counter/Top Decks.
As you did not notice, the last two posters did not speak about Counter/Top........ maybe read and think, then post?

[Shugyosha]

Path to Exile + Daze?
Go for Swords to Plowshares instead. This has been discusses so often, i can't understand how ppl still make this mistake


I have discussed this one page before:


Swords makes the clock slower, whether it is Progenitus or your other creatures. Would you rather give the opponent a basic land or another card? Most of the times it comes down to exactly this question as swords gives the opponent enough life for another draw. There are many decks I would gladly give the land instead of the card.

In creature-heavy matches like Goblins it's the plan to get to Jitte/SoFaI ASAP anyways. My Goblin matchup is good thanks to the equipment. There are many more answers to Lackey than Path and you get the Swords out of the board specifically for matchups where you likely use removal early so the list plays Path only exclusively in the first game.

Also never had a problem with Daze as removal is usually not necessary during the first few turns. Anyways players are usually too greedy with the extra land anyways. They try to take advantage of the land and fail.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Hm, relying on your opponent playing bad - that's something i would love to accept as a part of the plan :D
Also don't forget that you have other creatures than Progenitus. Imo you should be able to put through the 3-4 damage needed to balance the Swords out. I mean, you have Tarmo and War Monk....
Then Progenitus is still the same clock (since he "counts by 10"), but your opponent won't have the extra land.

[Shugyosha]

Hm, relying on your opponent playing bad - that's something i would love to accept as a part of the plan :D
Also don't forget that you have other creatures than Progenitus. Imo you should be able to put through the 3-4 damage needed to balance the Swords out. I mean, you have Tarmo and War Monk....
Then Progenitus is still the same clock (since he "counts by 10"), but your opponent won't have the extra land.

As I said Path is usually not necessary until the opponent has enough mana anyways. Daze is one of the reasons for it because I can simply counter early threats or they are not as good as mine. When you know that you won't get behind the damage race due to playing Swords you can let through certain cards.

The point is not that you don't have the assets to deal more damage due to Swords but that you give the opponent additional turns to draw outs. With Path you give them lands but they still have to have the outs to use them and during the mid/lategame another land is usually meaningless to them but another card isn't.

3-4 life on average is also not true as you play more than one Swords per game often. 2 Swords on Goyfs over the course of the game for example can easily gain 8 life! Giving the opponent 8 life would be terrible in an aggrodeck. That's why Zoo plays Path, that's why I play Path.

Progenitus is the same clock? Even 21 life and the clock is one turn slower. An early Natural Order in turn 3 or 4 often has no supporting creature or exalted bonus. I would have lost games to Swords over Path due to the extra turn I would have granted my opponents. Losing the damage race against Islandwalkers, an additional burnspell from the top, another turn to be able to get Emrakul into play, etc.

And again, there are matches where Path early is bad. I never said it isn't but Stoneforge + equipment easily negates the problem and most of the time I don't have to use Path early anyways.

[median]

How are the ichorid and Lands! matches these days? Which is more bant friendly?

[BantFTW]

ichorid is always a bad matchup, for most of the decks lool.
And lands idk, you really don't see lands here in Europe...
But I think you should really run 4x graveyard hate, maybe 5 pieces because of these decks:
dredge, any life from the loam deck, threshold, madness is also very much played these days, and probably some others to :)
So I think you should really run alot of graveyard hate.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Well, if your meta is that much Dredge and Lands/Loam and you want to play Bant no matter what, then just add 4 Faerie Macabre and 3 Relic of Progenitus to your sideboard.....

Versus Lands you wait for them to dredge, and in response to the ability going on the stack, you remove Loam with Faerie. They can still cycle in response and then get their loam - so be careful.
Versus Ichorid..... dunno....

[median]

thanks

[nodahero]

You can't respond to drege... You can respond to the cycle... but not to the act of dregeing as I seemed to interpret you message.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Yeah, i kinda did not make my point clear:

The enemy cycles a land -> you try to remove Life from the Loam with a Faerie in response and hope he does not have another way to draw (and replace the draw with a dredge then)
OR
you try to remove a Life from the Loam with faerie (just like this, and hope he does not have a land to cycle / card-draw)

This are the 2 options i was trying to explain



Btw:

How do we win versus Mefolk?
I am having some trouble with this matchup.....

[datanaga]

After Saito's finish in GP my meta looks like 8 people from 25 are playing merfolks...
I used to play 4x swords and 2x jitte MAIN and 2-4x path, 4x pithing needle and 2x llawan in SB...

[Shugyosha]

Yeah, i kinda did not make my point clear:
How do we win versus Mefolk?
I am having some trouble with this matchup.....

Equipment was almost always my route of winning so far. I don't have to play against Merfolk very often but usually win by some equipped (Sword of Fire and Ice) guy. Stoneforge Mystic is very good for the job because she doesn't die of Perish (if played). I use my countermagic to get equipment through and protect it (from Echoing Truth or counterjitte) instead of countering stuff first. I almost never counter a Vial for example and I often don't even destroy it with a Pridemage. I need every last bit of offense to race the opponent before he draws too many lords.

In games 2&3 I board out NO/Prog for every removal I have in my board. I also recently added a Sword of Body and Mind which is another nice card to board against Merfolk.

[TylerB]

Has anyone had good luck against BG Madness Survival after sideboarding? If so what are you siding in/out?

[sporenfrosch1411]

Well, 3 Needles,2 Relic and 3 Faerie Macabre in my sideboard => i did not feel THAT hard as a matchup :/
But maybe my opponents were just bad players, i don't know...or maybe im just a graveyard-hater :D

[humppa]

Well, 3 Needles,2 Relic and 3 Faerie Macabre in my sideboard => i did not feel THAT hard as a matchup :/
But maybe my opponents were just bad players, i don't know...or maybe im just a graveyard-hater :D


After Saito's finish in GP my meta looks like 8 people from 25 are playing merfolks...
I used to play 4x swords and 2x jitte MAIN and 2-4x path, 4x pithing needle and 2x llawan in SB...

Ok, so today sideboard agains two most played decks are:

4 PtE
4 Pithing Needle
2 Llawan
2 Relic
3 Faerie Macabre
=
15 cards

I've got a question - do you fee playing a Bant Aggro / Pro Bant is a good idea in today metagame, when you are recomming to use your whole sideboard agains two most played decks? :)

[sporenfrosch1411]

Nope,

that's why im playing CB/Top :P

[strife2]

Nope,

that's why im playing CB/Top :P

Bant CB/Top is not good in the new metagame : you have a bad MU against Survival VV, Merfolk, Goblins and Heavy Control as Landstill, so the 4 current DTB...

[sporenfrosch1411]

Since when do you have a bad Matchup versus Merfolk and Goblins with 3 Firespout Main ?

Survival VV -> Agree. I am testing out 4 Faerie Macabre + 3 P-Needle SB to fix that.

[Eventide]

Hi everyone,

i want to give this deck a try at my next tournament and want to ask what you think about my list:

//Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Rhox War Monk
1 Progenitus
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique

//Other
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Natural Order

//Lands
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor

//Sideboard:
3 Spell Pierce
1 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
3 Hydroblast
3 Relic of Progenitus

I think i should have quite good matchups against Goblins and Merfolk thanks to Stoneforge. Is there anything you would change in this build?

Thank you,

Eventide

[strife2]

Since when do you have a bad Matchup versus Merfolk and Goblins with 3 Firespout Main ?


Have you ever test these 2 MU before saying that ? Even with 3 Firespout MD, the Merfolk is difficult and Firespout is really difficult to cast with his wasteland, cursecatcher and Spell Pierce. Against Goblin, His Rishadan and Wasteland prevent the Firespout and even if you can cast it, he can go back in the game very quickly with Matron or Ringleader.
3 Cards MD can't turn a bad MU into a good.
And with Firespout MD, you are not playing Bant but Supreme Blue, it's a bit different.

[keys]

Hi everyone,

i want to give this deck a try at my next tournament and want to ask what you think about my list:
snip

I think it's a very attractive list. You could potentially squeeze in some Spell Snares to anticipate Survival.

[SMR0079]

http://magic-ville.com/fr/decks/showdeck?ref=205864

Really well designed Bant list took 2nd in a 300 person event. They chose Jace/Elspeth over Natural Order/Pro. Looks like it should have good game vs Survival with the Spells Snares/Peirces. Needle could be good as it hits both Survival and Vial - tribal can be tough.

BtW - Firespout is a nonbo with Heirarch and Pridemage, and doesn't belong in this archetype, but rather more controling counterbalance lists.

[Eventide]

Hi,

nice list. I know this has been discussed lately but why do you think he played the Planeswalkers instead of Natural Order? Natural Order is almost always good game against most decks while Jace or Elspeth don´t have such a big impact on the board and are quite slow. Against Goblins or Merfolk where Progenitus can be too slow, the Planeswalkers don´t help us, too.

So why would you play Jace/ Elspeth instead of NOPro?

[miko]

I'm not sure about that, too. But let us discuss it looking at synergies.

1. Point: Plainswalker and Goyf: If there are Plainswalkers in grave Goyfs become bigger.

2. Point: You can give one of your guys flying and +3/+3 what is pretty good in situation where the board is stalled. (Even Hierarch deals a lot of damage then.) So Elspeth can surprise your OP.

3. Point: Jaces Bounce ability helps you to put the last points of damage through, too.

4. Point: Plainswalker are pretty difficult to handle (in comparison to creatures.) Especially if you are facing decks packs a lot of removal.

5. Point: They create card-advantage and can be a softlock (esp. Jace). Natural Order is 2 for 1 and if getting countered: 2 for 0.

So I like the idea of adding Plainswalkers. Especially because of reasons 2, 3, 5.

[DragoFireheart]

I'm not sure about that, too. But let us discuss it looking at synergies.

1. Point: Plainswalker and Goyf: If there are Plainswalkers in grave Goyfs become bigger.

2. Point: You can give one of your guys flying and +3/+3 what is pretty good in situation where the board is stalled. (Even Hierarch deals a lot of damage then.) So Elspeth can surprise your OP.

3. Point: Jaces Bounce ability helps you to put the last points of damage through, too.

4. Point: Plainswalker are pretty difficult to handle (in comparison to creatures.) Especially if you are facing decks packs a lot of removal.

5. Point: They create card-advantage and can be a softlock (esp. Jace). Natural Order is 2 for 1 and if getting countered: 2 for 0.

So I like the idea of adding Plainswalkers. Especially because of reasons 2, 3, 5.


I agree with the points you make Miko. A few other points worth noting:

- Due to the large volume of creatures you have, it's also easy to protect the Planeswalkers from creature swarms.

- A single Perish is not a game ender with either of the walkers out.

- Against control decks with board wipers, they will be forced to contend with your planeswalkers before they can lay theirs down. Sure, they can simply drop theirs to kill yours, but control decks tend to have many less win cons compared to a aggro-control deck.

- Turn 1 Noble, Turn 2 Monk, Turn 3 Elspeth with a 7/8 lifelink flying monk is a nasty clock. The life gain will also force TES to create a higher storm count.


For the list that got 2nd, I would personally take out the EE and put in a single Wipe Away as a sort of catch all answer to anything. EE can't hit the other players walkers or Humility: having an out that can't be countered seems slightly better. I guess the list had EE as a way to blow up Vials, but he already has 3 pridemages so I'm guessing he wanted an artifact to make Goyf bigger.

[SMR0079]

Hi,

nice list. I know this has been discussed lately but why do you think he played the Planeswalkers instead of Natural Order? Natural Order is almost always good game against most decks while Jace or Elspeth don´t have such a big impact on the board and are quite slow. Against Goblins or Merfolk where Progenitus can be too slow, the Planeswalkers don´t help us, too.

So why would you play Jace/ Elspeth instead of NOPro?

The thing is it's not really gg anymore. NOPro gets raced by the 2 most popular decks right now, Survival & Merfolk.

You don't really need another way to clock your opponent, but you do benifit from the advanatage that planeswalkers provide. Aside from Merfolk, JAce belongs in every blue deck. Elsepth is more debatable, but is great agasint creature battles which make up a large part of the metagame.

In regards to Merfolk you really just want to load up on spot removal, stop Lord of Atlantis & Vial.

[DragoFireheart]

I just play tested a list nearly identical to the one posted with the planeswalkers against TES. I lost every single game pre-sideboard regardless of what I did (played about 7 games). How does Bant beat storm combo decks pre-board? What should I have in my board for the inevitable influx of storm decks that may be coming up in metas?

[menace13]

I just play tested a list nearly identical to the one posted with the planeswalkers against TES. I lost every single game pre-sideboard regardless of what I did (played about 7 games). How does Bant beat storm combo decks pre-board? What should I have in my board for the inevitable influx of storm decks that may be coming up in metas?
With out Cbalance the mu is bad. Even Canonist is not that good against an expirienced player. Stifle+Wasteland decks have an easier time than Bant Aggro with 20 non hate bears. Mindbreak can help some, but TES with Chants makes that plan okay at best. Daze and FoW are not going to cut it against combo unless the clock is quick-3-4 turns- and is backed up by mana denial. Dredge is another bad mu for this deck. Vintage mains hate bears like MMage and Null Rods to give Noble game against combo as well as Waste+Stifle, maybe that is the direction you want to go with it, but those lists are poor against Zoo/Gobs.

[DragoFireheart]

With out Cbalance the mu is bad. Even Canonist is not that good against an expirienced player. Stifle+Wasteland decks have an easier time than Bant Aggro with 20 non hate bears. Mindbreak can help some, but TES with Chants makes that plan okay at best. Daze and FoW are not going to cut it against combo unless the clock is quick-3-4 turns- and is backed up by mana denial. Dredge is another bad mu for this deck. Vintage mains hate bears like MMage and Null Rods to give Noble game against combo as well as Waste+Stifle, maybe that is the direction you want to go with it, but those lists are poor against Zoo/Gobs.

Well fuck pre-board. What can I do for a sideboard then that hates storm and dredge?

[menace13]

Well fuck pre-board. What can I do for a sideboard then that hates storm and dredge?

Prayer beads and rabbits feet? :tongue:
J/K, devoting like 6-7 slots is a waste unless your meta is all combo, if it is then playing another deck is better. You can try Hate bears in Canonist+ MMage or Traps+Rule of Law/Arcane Lab, but the 3cc spells are slow against them and easily duressed. If you expect a lot of combo then the deck needs to be adjusted pre board as well.

Dredge can beat Crypt/Relic with Grudges even through FoW/Daze also they have Therapy for the counters/Hate cards and w/o Wasteland they will get to 2 lands for it to be effective or they can just dredge in the face of the hate and use 1 land to flashback then go off. SB slots for those 2 mus shouldnt leave you short with no space to fight Merf/Gobs/Zoo and all the Survival decks. Could try 3 Trap,2-3 Canonist,2 Crypt, 1 Relic, 1 Wheel of Sun, although that leaves out a lot of other decks from your board plans with only 6 slots left for the field. Let me know if you have come up with anything, but i believe the mu needs to be accounted for pre board to stand a chance.

[SMR0079]

With 13 counter spells, and 2 Cliques post board with a clock should make the match fine. MMage is another solid option.

If you are in Storm central you can go more tempo and play stifle waste which helps significantly.

[DragoFireheart]

How well does this deck do against survival? Between main-decked Qasali Pridemage and Spell Snare along with our sideboard, I'm thinking this deck can do well against Vengevival decks. Save Swords to Plowshares for their Vengevines and use our superior creature base to crush them.

[Tarmogoyf]

Recommendation Top 8 Deck (2010-10)

Bant Aggro

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Forest

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Umezawa's Jitte

count:60

3 Meddling Mage
3 Spell Pierce
2 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog

count:15

Remove Rhox War Monk
Remove Daze
Add Knight of the Reliquary
Add Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Add Wasteland

[Shimi]

I'm testing this list and I got some very good results with it:

Next Level Bant

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of Reliquary
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Vendillion Clique

4 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth Knight Errant
4 Sword to Plowshares

4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
20 lands

SB:
1 Jace , The Mind Sculptor
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ray of Revelation
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Vendillion Clique

KotR + Goyf can make sure a really big guy will stay at the table, qasali , pierce , snares can smash Survival decks.Planeswalkers can just get some card advantage and are great when you cast them at T3 with noble or win the ground stalls.
Any thoughts?

[Tarmogoyf]

11/21 6th deck :

Pro Bant

1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah

1 Progenitus
3 Natural Order
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
3 Vendilion Clique

SB
2 Krosan Grip
3 Spell Pierce
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Meddling Mage
3 Aven Mindcensor

[PhanTom_lt]

Last weekend I won a Mox Ruby tournament (47 people) in Manchester, UK with this:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation

// Lands
2 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas

// Creatures
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Pierce

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Path to Exile
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Peacekeeper

Peacekeepers in the board were a mistake, but the MD handled the Vengevine decks well. Wasteland proved it's worth it's weight in gold, the only thing I would like to improve is the blue count for FoW as I find sometimes I don't have anything to pitch.

[keys]

I'd play Ponder instead of Spell Pierce in the maindeck and move them to the SB in place of Peacekeeper and Bog.

[Shimi]

@Phantom: It seems very similar to the list I posted but could not keep working on it.I have a few questions for you:
1)How was Meddling Mage, and for what matchups it is for?
2)With Jitte SB did you not missed some Stoneforge at SB too?
3)Did you like more Jace or Elspeth , in my testing I found Elspeth better today.
4)18 lands were enought for you?

Thx in advance.

[Eddy Wally]

How well does this deck do against survival? Between main-decked Qasali Pridemage and Spell Snare along with our sideboard, I'm thinking this deck can do well against Vengevival decks. Save Swords to Plowshares for their Vengevines and use our superior creature base to crush them.

Tried it. The problem is that the moment they go off, they send three or four VV's at once at you. A single path or plow won't do much good then. Either nuke their graveyard or prevent them from going off with pithing needle or ethersworn canonist.

[practical joke]

Tried it. The problem is that the moment they go off, they send three or four VV's at once at you. A single path or plow won't do much good then. Either nuke their graveyard or prevent them from going off with pithing needle or ethersworn canonist.

You know ethersworn cannonist doesn't do shit anymore.
Nearly all lists now run either memnite or shield sphere instead of a 4th rootwalla or whatever.

[PhanTom_lt]

@Phantom: It seems very similar to the list I posted but could not keep working on it.I have a few questions for you:
1)How was Meddling Mage, and for what matchups it is for?
2)With Jitte SB did you not missed some Stoneforge at SB too?
3)Did you like more Jace or Elspeth , in my testing I found Elspeth better today.
4)18 lands were enought for you?

Thx in advance.

1) I wanted a bit more combo hate, and having 14 counterspells MD I would rather play a hate bear. Since this is a tempo-ish version, having hate that actually beats for 2 is better than additional counters.
2) I have never played with Mystic and I don't just see SB space for him.
3) Jace was better as it was usually an easy FoW pitch, and won me 1 match where Elspeth probably wouldn't have, against Counterthopter when he had Moat out, plenty of removal effects, but no way of killing the walker.
4) Yes, it's fine. I might want 19 or stuff ~2 Ponders in, but so far it worked pretty well.

[ivanpei]

Thanks to shimi for redirecting me here. I thought my list was more new-horizons, but I've been told it looks more bant aggro. The lines blur, so who knows?

Anyone tried a stifle-less (mana-openless) build? I'm playing this list right now, keep in mind that I play it like tap-out aggro control:

4 Force
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords
2 EE
4 Noble
4 Tarmo
4 Kotr
2 Terravore
3 Jace TMS

4 Misty
4 Flooded
2 Windswept
3 Trop
2 Tundra
2 Canopy
4 Wasteland

Imo, keeping mana open for stifle has cost me alot of tempo sometimes. I tried addressing it by adding snares/pierces for the 1 mana open strategy, but that didn't gel with my 3 drop creatures. Wasteland + Daze + FOW has been useful enough in terms of disruption. Considering how the format will be slowed by the upcoming survival banning, having more midrangy bombs like Jace, TMS seems to be useful. Anyone have any similar experience with Jace? He's been awesome for me so far he bounces FTW or he gasses me on par with control/fateseals to victory. Of course, playing him means less space for spell spierce/snares etc. Worse combo/survival MU but better against more mid-rangy stuff like the mirror.

[ZeinVoncy]

New to this archtype, I've played against it a few times and I like the deck. Just out of curiosity, I feel in love with Bant after Standard Bant was pretty good, but the main reason I loved the deck was Rafiq, of the Many. Is Rafiq a playable card in Legacy Bant?

[thecrav]

I've seen it as a two-of, but it's really a win-more card in my opinion.

[mossivo1986]

I've seen it as a two-of, but it's really a win-more card in my opinion.

Agreed.

The power in Bant decks comes from the efficiency of your creatures and the ability to overwhelm your opponent early with removal/ exalted triggers to force them to make bad blocks to stay alive. While Rafiq is like the dream; it's too expensive; and doesn't help defend against the problem that is a clogged board position.

[Diakonov]

Is Ravenous Trap any good against Survival? Is it too easy for them to play around?

[Koby]

If they expect Ravenous Trap, then it's very easy to play around (only let 2 cards each turn make it into the G/Y).

Faerie Macabre still seems to be the better option, as it can has no Trap-clause.

[mossivo1986]

isnt pithing needle "just the better option?"

[Shimi]

Is Ravenous Trap any good against Survival? Is it too easy for them to play around?

Really bad, in my experience they are only useful if they use Intuition for 3 Vines.

[Koby]

<list>

Imo, keeping mana open for stifle has cost me alot of tempo sometimes. I tried addressing it by adding snares/pierces for the 1 mana open strategy, but that didn't gel with my 3 drop creatures. Wasteland + Daze + FOW has been useful enough in terms of disruption. Considering how the format will be slowed by the upcoming survival banning, having more midrangy bombs like Jace, TMS seems to be useful. Anyone have any similar experience with Jace? He's been awesome for me so far he bounces FTW or he gasses me on par with control/fateseals to victory. Of course, playing him means less space for spell spierce/snares etc. Worse combo/survival MU but better against more mid-rangy stuff like the mirror.

I too have been seeing this change upcoming after Jan 1st. I have room for 2 Jace TMS but wonder if the 3rd is necessary. Elspeth helps you win the game much faster if you already have a dude out, or helps to stall otherwise. The only concern I have trouble evaluating is whether I can run 19 lands (w/o Wasteland) and and drop down to 3 KoTR since I don't run any land utility that would be useful for him to get.

In his slot I run Vendilion Clique which has been amazing in my old Bant survival list, and I fully intend to run them here as well. Turn 1 Hierarch is just too good not to pass up in this upcoming format.

[number88]

1st place on Dec 19th with U/G/W Survival. Too bad Survival got banned the next day!!! LOL.
Gotta have a new deck for next month tourney. Here's what i have in mind.
Bant Aggro:
Lands (19):
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Island
1 Forest
Creature (18)
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
3 Serendib Efreet
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
Spells (23)
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
Sideboard:
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip

Serendib Efreet comes over Rhox War Monk because its flying ability. Kira and Vendilion goes single because they're legendary.
Stoneforge Mystic slows the deck so it goes out.
What do you guys think?

[Ajsmirnov]

number88
i personaly don't like ereet, RWM is million times better.

myself i didn't play Bant for a long time, since i 2-2-2 at GP Madrid with it, switching to Survival/ANT/Landstill. and now i think it is time to play Bant again, after new b/r list.

long story short, here is my list.

3 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Gaea's Cradle
(18 lands)

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Mother of Runes
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scryb Ranger

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte

many times i play like Maverick with fow. the idea is to win against the growing number of BGW Rock, Maverick and Merfolks. not sure that my list is tuned best for it. also in my meta people play TES, Zoo, Dredge, some Show and Tell, Landstill/Thopter Foundry

current sideboard:
3 Meddling Mage
2 Mindbreack Trap
2 Krosan Grip
1 Gleeful Sabotage
2 Path to Exile
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Relic of Progenitus

every kind of help is welcome

[Koby]

There seem to be many variants of Bant popping up.

I piloted a version listed here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16881-[Deck]-Excalibur&p=511837&viewfull=1#post511837). Please let me know what y'all think.

[GrAsH]

Hi folks, I was playing with a Bant Aggro for a year, and I absolutely love this deck. My meta never had some form of Survival, and with it banned now, it'll never see the light of day (those new builds with Bloodghast, Intuition, Fauna Shaman, etc.) My meta consists in more Merfolks and Zoo, with some random rogue decks popping up here and there, and sometimes Team America and other player that come with Bant.

I've played a NO build, but in my meta it becomes a little inconsistent, dunno why.

My build is now optimized to fight in my meta, a non-NO build, and it's as follows:

Lands:
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Forest
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest

Creatures:
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Trygon Predator
1 Rafiq of the Many

Spells:
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard:
1 Rhox War Monk
2 Path to Exile
3 Spell Pierce
2 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives

Sometimes it loses to Goblins (about 40-60), and that is the matchup I want to improve. What do you think I can put in SB to improve it?
Also, thinking on cutting one Elspeth for a single Jace, the Mind Sculptor, because Elspeth wins me games, but seeing two in my opening hand is terrible. If I draw an Elspeth, fine, let's smash the opponnent, and if I draw a Jace, ok, let's dig the deck and make card-advantage. Further testing will answer my doubt.

And last but not the least, what do you think of my deck?

[JCrawl85]

Sometimes it loses to Goblins (about 40-60), and that is the matchup I want to improve. What do you think I can put in SB to improve it?
And last but not the least, what do you think of my deck?

For your SB, especially for Bant, I've always been a giant advocate of Dueling Grounds. Dueling Grounds + Rhox War Monk or Knight of the Reliquary is pretty much auto-lose for Goblins.

If you want to specifically hate Goblins, run 1 or 2 Tivadar's Crusade (1WW Destroy all Goblins - random card from The Dark). For a broader answer you can pack a playset of Blue Elemental Blasts.

[TheSleeper]

What about Absolute Law?

[Koby]

If you're going to run an enchantment to help Goblins/swarm, Ghostly Prison would be much better. It solves the same problems vs Goblins, but also addressed Merfolk, some variations of Sneak Show, all the while not affecting you.

If you're looking for a temporal answer, Elephant Grass is even better option, but only useful for 4 turns. (LOLWUT? you need more than 4 turns to win?) Also, totally hoses some Rock/Gate decks, and completely stops Progenitus dead.

EDIT: I would not recommend running Propaganda, as REB/Pyroblast is fairly common.

[Valtrix]

After playing countertop for the past six months, I've noticed the meta becoming very aggro heavy again, especially with goblins with countertop is usually pretty bad against. As such, I wanted something that could withstand these varied aggro decks, while also not losing to the other countertop decks and having a chance against combo. Dealing with combo meant that I'd need to run blue, and dealing with other aggro decks meant that I'd need to have big creatures, and I think as a side effect those two things make you good against countertop decks. With these things in mind I built a list up, then realizing there were some threads on the Source of similar type decks. So, mostly I wanted to get some feedback on the following list:

// Lands
1 [R] Savannah
1 [R] Tundra
3 [R] Tropical Island
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [UG] Forest
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [6E] Plains (3)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
4 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
3 [NE] Daze
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [5E] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [A] Blue Elemental Blast


In particular I feel like the manabase is a little off, as well as preparing the sideboard. My meta tends to be heavily swayed by big tournaments, so I expect to see mostly aggro (Folk, goblins, zoo) and countertop, with some combo usually showing up. Now, I little bit of card choices explaination:

I wanted 4 knight because he's a monster against any deck, being the biggest creature around while still accelerating your threats or doing very productive things with wasteland. On that note I felt that I wanted to play a couple Vendilion Cliques was worthwhile, as a means to take advantage of knight even more, and also to increase my blue count. In terms of anti-aggro and blue cards rhox war monk fits perfectly, and he doesn't die to all of the firespouts running around either. Hierarch and goyf are autoinclude, but I also had a pair of pridemages because I think the utility is too good to pass up (Plus, you want more 2cc cards I think...).

As for spells, swords, force, and brainstorm are autoinclude. I'm not a huge fan of daze going into the lategame or drawing multiple, which is why I think three is best. I also considered ponder, but since I'm usually not digging for anything in particular I wanted to have more outs to combo and the countertop decks, which is why I opted for spell pierces. Lastly, I needed some more blue cards and Jace seems to help out against control and in a type of deck like this seems like a good asset to have.

As for the sideboard I'm not entirely sure. I think it's pretty clear I wanted to shut aggro down with jittes, and I wanted the blasts for extra help against firespouts/pyroblasts, goblins, and zoo creatures. The pridemages are effectively grips 5-6, though they're probably not entirely necessary in the board (and likewise 4 grip is perhaps overkill). The extra Jaces are also to help against the control decks, to both kill theirs and help my board position.

Anyway, I haven't really had time to test, nor have I had experience playing these type of decks, so the list is a little rough. However, I think that it should do a good job aiming at the field that I will probably face, but I would like to hear suggestions that anybody might have.

[Koby]

Moved to tourney report page.

RE Valtrix:
Against Control I would consider Elspeth a more pertinent threat than additional Jaces. Most CB decks don't have ways outside of combat to dispatch Elspeth, and it's also randomly good vs certain non-swarm aggro plans, like Rock. I've found that more often than not, a resolved Elspeth spells game over. Also, instead of playing the 3rd Jace, any consideration about playing Stoneforge Mystic, which in most cases would run better. The Grips also don't make much sense in your board, especially 4x.... You're better off running the 2 QPM maindeck and cutting out some of the 3-drops. The deck relies too much on Noble Hierarch to include so many, and having a hand full of 3 drops with no way to capitalize on them earlier is one of major weaknesses for this deck.

[CaBaaL]

1st tournament after survival ban (I had a bant-survival.. RIP) and i choose the obvious bant-agro

1st my list:


4 Noble Hieararch
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
2 elspeth
1 Engeneered explosives

3 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Horizon Canopy
1 natuko monastery
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains

Sideboard:

1 Engeneered explosives
3 path to exile
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
4 Spell Pierce

perfect for an agro infested meta but with combo rising fast


1st GAME vs goblins R/b (won the dice really important)

-I know that he plays goblins but he think i play zoo. i start with fetch land and i daze his 1st turn vial. 2nd turn lacky sent to farm and 2 goyfs win easy the game

-clique, - explosives (the curve of goblins make it suck), -2 jace, +3 paths (making the deck 60 cards)

- he starts again with vial and i have force for it, i play a noble hierarch and he wastes my land and drops vial #2 pridemage joins taking his vial after attack for 4 he kept 2 land hand (1 is waste) but he has vial #3! It get active when he faces dream-team-trio (1 rhox, 1 knight and a goyf) and he scoops

2nd game merfolk

-i hate merfolks cause it was my weak MU back when i had a bant survival deck. I lose the dice and he starts with vial i choose not to step on a daze and drop a hierarch and 2nd turn knight with backup force. Knight stops every folk while he is growing (12/12 near end) jace joins the party and games ends fast!

-2 jace, -1 clique, +3 paths, +1 explosives, -1 elpeth (maybe mistake need help here)

-he muls to grave-hate i think and keeps a non permition hand but with 2 reliq of progrenitus. The game ends fast with elspeth and double rhox.The fact I did draw 3/7 plow effects helped too!

3rd GAME with zoo

-he starts fast with crimlavamancer burning everything i drop. Elpeth came to buy some time but i drew many lands (10/19) and no swords

-2 jace,- 4 FOW, -1 clique, +3 crypt,+3 paths, +1 explosives

-we both mull to six and i have a crypt and a noble at hand, I am afraid for a possible price for progress so i fetch basics and drop a knight after giving 2 goyfs as targets for 1 path and burns. he has 2 knights and i have 1 in hand and one on play. crypt removes hes grave and he loses soon after

-he mulls to 5 maybe he is looking for grave-hate. My hand is full of removals (4 plow efect and an explosive) so i do not afraid his 1st turn lavamancer I brainstorm and i see goyf land knight and hierarch and i am ready to win! I drop turn 2 goyf facing his double kird apes on his turn he burns my goyf (lighting + lavamancer) and attack for 4 but next turn explosive for one wiping his battle field +daze on his knight leaving him with 2 cards in hand and empty board. game ends fast after my knight geting exiled but rhox beats for 4 then 5 (2nd noble) then 6 (pridemage) ending it before he manage to find something to stick in (he found a knight but my crypt made him tiny and he got force to block my rhox)

4rth game vs TES

- try to mull to a FOW and keep a crapy hand with FOW but nothing else relevant, his duress takes it away and i lose soon after that

-2 elspeth, +4 spell pierce, +1 clique, +1 explosives (for empty the warrens), -4 swords.

-i mull to six and i have a good hand with 1 daze 1 pierce and a fow. he duresses and i daze, he duresses again and i pierce than one more and i pierce again, then he plays some mana spells and tries for burning wish i fow (removing a rhox, leaving my with 1 noble and lands..) But the decks surprices me and i topdeck jace! He has 2 cards in hand and i faceseal him out of mana, knight and clique join the party and he loses fast.

-he mulls to 5! and he duresses me taking 1 fow leaving me with 3 pierces in hand! I kept 1 land hand and i pray for a 2nd. it did not came bu brainstorm was enought to find 2 more and goyf. He does not draw any more discards and he loses soon after.

5th game vs rock ID
we play for fun and i rape him easy

PROS
-not having a basic island vs folks
-having a lot of permition vs combo
-no manascrews!! i had at some points flood but knight and horrizon helped alot
-having nantuko monastery as surpise fectable (with knight) attacker!


CONS
-not playing against a countertop variant (there were 3)
-winning a 9th FOW.

[daPaule]

-clique, - explosives (the curve of goblins make it suck), -2 jace, +3 paths (making the deck 60 cards)




Rule 122:
[...]
Any card exchange between decks and sideboards must be made on a one-for-one basis to ensure that the sideboards remain at exactly fifteen cards.


Regarding penalty guide that's a game loss :wink: Anyhow congrats and it's not the first time I'm reading that on the forums.

[CaBaaL]

Regarding penalty guide that's a game loss :wink: Anyhow congrats and it's not the first time I'm reading that on the forums.

WHAAA??? LOL what? really? i did not know that... danm i made the same misstake 10000 times.. lol!

[daPaule]

Point being I recently saw that before and on another report someone said he received a game loss for being late 10 seconds or so.
That's why you really should get familiar the floor rules. I'm not saying you should look for such errors, but if they appear it's an easy win. There are people lurking around hoping to find such stuff... and get easy wins off it. Just don't let them get these "byes".

[CaBaaL]

Point being I recently saw that before and on another report someone said he received a game loss for being late 10 seconds or so.
That's why you really should get familiar the floor rules. I'm not saying you should look for such errors, but if they appear it's an easy win. There are people lurking around hoping to find such stuff... and get easy wins off it. Just don't let them get these "byes".

really thanks that you let me know. I can recall a lot of games that i made that misstake, i will not do it again and i will count the SBs of other people too.
In fact i am really -insert word here- and let ppl take moves back (blocks/spells/what ever) and cheat (I do not shafle their decks, neither i watch what they do so if they want to cheat they will easy)... Maybe it is time to be more serious
(btw i am 9th in my country so i do not think i count as a noob, maybe i am stil a casual player in heart)

[luudes]

I thought it was worth a mention that this list is simliar to the vial bant lists being discussed in new and developmental. This deck is similar but the cantrips are replaced by vials and more countermagic. I think a hybrid of the decks may be a better evolution. vial is better than the cantrips but having StPs and elspeth is something the vial lists should consider. I would suggest folks interested in either deck pay attention to both of these threads for ideas and further discussion and tuning.

[Xiang]

I think if you cut the cantrips for non blue cards you have to cut the forces as well...

[luudes]

ok taking that last list posted
-1ee, -2 ponder -1StP; turn 1 hierarch into a second V clique and with 4 open slots add vial; your blue count decreases by 1, I would much rather play vial than ponder or BS first turn.

[jazzykat]

@Cabaal:you are not a newb. You are a gentleman. However, I would suggest at least cutting your oppOnents deck if there are significant prizes up for grabs.

I remember a Waterbury tournament from 2004 and every single opponent was tip top. Rules are one thing, but for the game to be truly enjoyable for me their needs to be a certain ethos. I remember one guy who totally dicked me out of a game after I had let him take back a play or two. I have since broken all contact with him.

[Xiang]

ok taking that last list posted
-1ee, -2 ponder -1StP; turn 1 hierarch into a second V clique and with 4 open slots add vial; your blue count decreases by 1, I would much rather play vial than ponder or BS first turn.

kk - I thought you argued in favour of cuting 4x Brainstorm +2x ponder for 4x vial +2x counter

[CaBaaL]

I thought it was worth a mention that this list is simliar to the vial bant lists being discussed in new and developmental. This deck is similar but the cantrips are replaced by vials and more countermagic. I think a hybrid of the decks may be a better evolution. vial is better than the cantrips but having StPs and elspeth is something the vial lists should consider. I would suggest folks interested in either deck pay attention to both of these threads for ideas and further discussion and tuning.

If you wan to add vial in the deck I would remove noble hierarch and I would add wastelands and stifles (in place of the planewalkers) too

[CaBaaL]

Sorry for the double post but i have a question:
What is the usage of Karakas MD? I mean how long has it been seen you seen a reanimator deck? It helps with clique to cycle crap from your hand but is it worth it ? I personaly use nantuko monastery in place of Karakas but i got one yesturday and I ask if it worth the spot.


EDIT: maybe for jitte? but we have pridemage for it (espesialy that you can assing him as a blocker then sac him to take jitte out, stoping a nontrampler AND removing jitte the same time)

[luudes]

I ran a list to 16th at san jose that uses vial , hierarch and wasteland. I think elspeth would be good there and I sided in StP in most matches.
Stifle I think is a bad choice for this particular deck style; you arent trying to completely lock out there mana but to slow it until you have the tempo advantage and at that point your creatures ares just better than the opponents.

Also karakas cannot target jitte; the oracle text is different from how the card reads. The utility of having karakas I think has a greater upside than you think; if they show and tell and you have KotR then you can actually win that game. Also going up to 2 cliques will make getting the karakas loop more viable. Having vial on 3, karakas and clique is quite awesome.

[Koby]

Also karakas cannot target jitte; the oracle text is different from how the card reads. The utility of having karakas I think has a greater upside than you think; if they show and tell and you have KotR then you can actually win that game. Also going up to 2 cliques will make getting the karakas loop more viable. Having vial on 3, karakas and clique is quite awesome.

I did that in San Jose multiple times, to great benefit. Clique is so strong vs non-aggro blue decks. I would advise however, that if one were to go the Vial route, to pay careful attention to the curve and the amount of 3 drops. Nine 3-drops is probably too much for this deck to handle, Vial and Hierarch included.

[thecrav]

Bouncing Clique a lot is highly useful.

Also, it gets Emrakul.

[ivanpei]

This deck has always been badass, but now it gets a major bump up with Green Sun's Zenith. The question now is, what to cut for it? Also has everybody dropped No-pro for Jace/elspeths? Is getting 2 for 1ed that common? Now with the zenith, you have to play dryad arbor. And with dryad arbor, playing No-Pro is much more convenient. With the Zenith, you kinda need a tool box now. Here's my start with a list:

2 Noble Heirarch (Have 6, 1 drop accelerators in enough IMO)
4 Green Sun's Zenith (The bomb, is llawonar elf on T1, then a Tarmogoyf if you need a beater, or a disenchant or an eternal witness fetching back NO/swords to plowshares- THIS IS BUSTED)
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendillon Clique

1 Eternal Witness
1 Pridemage
1 Trygon Predator

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder (Need to bump up the blue count + ponders are always good)
4 STP
3 Spell pierce
3 Daze
3 Natural Order
1 Proggy

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Wasteland
4 Misty
4 Heath
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Tropical
2 Tundra

+ Gaddock/ shusher etc in the board. Seems pretty hot!

[DragoFireheart]

This deck has always been badass, but now it gets a major bump up with Green Sun's Zenith. The question now is, what to cut for it? Also has everybody dropped No-pro for Jace/elspeths? Is getting 2 for 1ed that common? Now with the zenith, you have to play dryad arbor. And with dryad arbor, playing No-Pro is much more convenient. With the Zenith, you kinda need a tool box now.

Zenith Order?

[ivanpei]

Should I make a new thread for Zenith -Order? This is gonna be the next big thing IMO.
EDIT:
Thanks Drago for the heads up, here's the thread where I highlight all the awesomeness the zenith brings to Bant Progenitus.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19772-Zenith-Order-%28GUW-GWB%29

[COBBLER]

The Zenith Doesn't seem that good you need to calm yourself lol

[ivanpei]

Dear Cobbler,

It is that good. I've seen a lot of cards, and this is busted nuts as it is. I'm gonna quote you in my siggy when people start Top-8ing with it. But you are right, I've got to calm down. I really want a playset NOW. I'll just have to play with crappy proxies in the meantime.

[COBBLER]

ok lol

[luckme10]

its worth testing. And makes running 1 of's that much more useful. I'll try pulling out brainstorm for now, adding the dryad. Zenith seems like they compete more with brainstorm than noble hierarch at this point because it look like you're going to want that extra mana hierarch provides...

[ivanpei]

Don't cut brainstorm. Ever. As good as zenith is, you must remember that you should treat it as a creature. So you should be trimming your heirarchs, warmonks, pridemages and kotrs. The list I posted on the previous page has 3 loose slots: 2 clique and 1 trygon. You could cut them for more nobles, kotrs or warmonks depending on your meta.

[CaBaaL]

I see it now all the decks will have 4 goyfs and 4 turors for it
IMO i beleive that probant is the deck that greenZenith will make the best of it

[The Duck!!]

hey guys. i'll be joining a legacy tournament this coming february and i'm thinking of going with this list. any comments and suggestions is welcome.:)

4 noble hierarch
4 tarmogoyf
3 knight of the reliquary
3 qasali pridemage
2 rhox war monk
2 stoneforge mystic
2 vendilion clique

4 force of will
4 daze
4 swords to plowshares
4 brainstorm
2 umezawa's jitte

4 misty rainforest
3 flooded strand
3 tropical island
3 tundra
3 wasteland
1 savannah
1 karakas
1 forest
1 island
1 plains
1 horizon's canopy

SB :
3 stifle
3 spell pierce
2 path to exile
2 tormod's crypt
1 relic of progenitus
2 meddling mage
2 krosan grip

[Koby]

@ Duck:
Your list only plays 16 blue spells maindeck. While they're all good blue cards, you might have some trouble finding fodder to cast FoW reliably. Playtest a bit with your list to make sure you're happy with the basic Island as well; as many of us have found it to be lacking in consistency. You may also want to consider playing Bojuka Bog in place of some graveyard hate in the SB, as it's functionally identical, and also tutorable through KotR.

You're also playing 22 lands, which isn't a bad thing necessarily, but you may find yourself getting flooded with lands in the mid-game. Playtesting will reveal how you like playing this configuration. It's a good start.

[The Duck!!]

@ Rukcus :
Actually you're right with the blue count for casting FoW and with the mid-game flooding. I actually find it too much land and maybe changing the island to another blue card or something else which I don't have any idea what to replace it with. i'm planning to change 1 KotR with 1 more RWM. or maybe 1 qasali pridemage to 1 RWM and maintain 3 KotR. Is Jace,TMS suited for 2 offs in this build or maybe add 1 elspeth instead of the island? I'm planning to remove the 2 vendilion cliques? stil don't yet though cause cliques are good beaters. A 3/1 flyer that can beat for 4 damage by 3rd turn with 1 noble hierarch in play. any other suggestions?

[thecrav]

2x Jace vs 1xJace 1x Elspeth I think could go either way depending on how you want to play. Jace will obviously give you more control and allow you to move through cards quickly on one hand, but on the other hand, a 6/7 War Monk with flying ain't half bad!

I would keep the cliques in. It's the only hand disruption you have and it can get pretty ridculous when paired with Karakas. Additionally, you can flash it in as a blocker and return it to your hand before it dies, which in itself is pretty sweet.

[The Duck!!]

so true. vendilion clique paired with karakas is just insane. anyway,gonna playtest it more. planning on removing the island and 1 misty rainforest for 1 eslpeth and 1 jace.

[JadeOberg]

hey guys. i'll be joining a legacy tournament this coming february and i'm thinking of going with this list. any comments and suggestions is welcome.:)

4 noble hierarch
4 tarmogoyf
3 knight of the reliquary
3 qasali pridemage
2 rhox war monk
2 stoneforge mystic
2 vendilion clique

4 force of will
4 daze
4 swords to plowshares
4 brainstorm
2 umezawa's jitte


I would start by cutting your lands to 20. You have Heirarchs and Brainstorms to smooth out your base. You can add 3 spell snares and cut 1 daze as well. This will diversify your counter magic...and spell snare is never a dead card like daze often is after turn 4. Lastly...consider cutting one Jitte for a SoFI. I run the 2 SFM with a 1 and 1 split on equipment....this will cut down on dead cards if you arleady have Jitte out there...which would be three dead cards in your library...You are basically running three copies of each equipment then. This is a strong deck choice, happy brewing!

[CaBaaL]

I did a top8 unbeatable this week with this list:


4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
2 elspeth
1 Engeneered explosives

3 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Horizon Canopy
1 karakas
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains

Sideboard:

1 Engeneered explosives
3 path to exile
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 nature's claim
4 Spell Pierce

1st game vs mefolk (1/0/0)

very easy game because i do not have any basic islands in. 2nd game path of exiles join in and make it even easier (i only have to counter hybernate everything else wasn't a threat). I will start considering merfolk MU a bay soon.

2nd game vs U/b/w tribal wizards (?) (2/0/0)

with oppotition and a weird combo with tap/untap wizards and other crap.

+3 paths, +2 natural claim (I saw schackles, top and ensering bridge on game one). - 2 elspeth, -explosives ( his curve was really high),- do not remember maybe 2 rhox

he mulls to six and he forces my 1turn noble(he thought i had mana-screw) i win easy with a tarmo and a clique

3rd game vs deadguy ale (2/1/0)

my brother with: 4 vindicates, 3 sinkholes,2 extripate on MD, 4 wastelands and the pontential of 1st turn hybnotic/nighthawk it is a 60/40 mu but i have to keep a strong hand we ID and go to eat

4rd game vs a jacestill variant with firespout and relic of progenitous MD (2/2/0)

-he has a crapload of counters (even counterspell and cryptic command) and playsets of firespout and explosives for removals. I kept a slow hand and i lose to jace's ultimate

-4 swords (he had no creatures not even the manlands(!), +4 spell pierce, +2 nature's claim, +1 explosives, +1 clique, -3 tarmogoyf (i was betting on more graveyard hate post boart), -1 knight of the reliquary

-I mull to 5 for a fast hand and even the added blue elemental blastes and hybernates I win easy with clique and elspeth

-mull to 6 for a srew-mana hand (2 tundras and a plains and 3 noble hierarchs), and then to five for a crapy hand with no steam till 4rth turn(1 jace) and some combination of dazes and spell pierces. I daze his early crap-threats (shacles) and use my jace to remove his. after a lot of (unfortunately real time) i draw a clique and start the beats. I get him to 5 and he draws an other shacles (he drew 4/4 on this game and 3/4 on each of the others) i have 2/2 nature's claims and use the 1st one he has the land to put in on top of his library so he does it the next turn. he is on top-deck-mode and i hope for a plainswalker to win in time. I draw a land and on the next one an explosive to take out both the clique and his shacles. Shame cause i had him on low life and i have killed 3/3 jace (his only win condition). It was the only time that i wanted to have the tempo package in (stifle-wasteland)

5th game vs U/B reanimator (3/2/0)

-interesting game and really easy countering his threats at some point he exhumes scoic angel but she is no much to my double 9/9 knights

graveyard hate in place of swords and spell pierces in place of the elspeth and explosives

-with out any removals but with alot of control i play slow. I win over his double fow on 2nd turn exhume and i leave him with one card in hand I draw a crypt but i didn't had to use it till game ends with my quasalis and noble hierarchs

Ended 5th but my brother finished 1st taking some crap-rares home

Pros:
-no flood and only 1 srew-hand
-only mulled 4 times (all vs the same opponent danm luck)
-tribals is easy mu
-nature's claim IMHO is better artifact/ench hate cause it hits vial as soon as it drops (haven't seen any counterbalance decks a while now)

Cons
-Added a karakas and i didn't used it at all (even against the reanimator) maybe i will switch back to monastery or gaea's grandle
-didn't use jace at all (will considare switch plainswalkers for NOprogenitous)

next time will add tempo package (maybe it will be a new horrizons then but who cares :P )

[_erbs_]

Grats on your unbeatable record !

Something to think about what do you do when you don't have a counter magic on your 1st 7 cards then your opponent opens up with a 1st turn dark rit + phyrexian crusader.. This dude is such a pain in our recent playtesting when this comes out early and you don't have counter magic its almost gg. And when he gets an equipment he instantly becomes a legenday creature.....

[menace13]

Grats on your unbeatable record !

Something to think about what do you do when you don't have a counter magic on your 1st 7 cards then your opponent opens up with a 1st turn dark rit + phyrexian crusader.. This dude is such a pain in our recent playtesting when this comes out early and you don't have counter magic its almost gg. And when he gets an equipment he instantly becomes a legenday creature.....

You Gilded Drake it.

[_erbs_]

You Gilded Drake it.

Yes you could.., but do you main deck gilded drake ?

[CaBaaL]

Grats on your unbeatable record !

Something to think about what do you do when you don't have a counter magic on your 1st 7 cards then your opponent opens up with a 1st turn dark rit + phyrexian crusader.. This dude is such a pain in our recent playtesting when this comes out early and you don't have counter magic its almost gg. And when he gets an equipment he instantly becomes a legenday creature.....

What decks do play phyrexian crusader? half their creatures put poison counters and the rest deal regular damage? It mast be a poison-only deck right? So what other options this deck has IF i have a FOW on my 1st hand, does it have tarmogoyf with infect? Consistent decks are the best ones, I do not mind to lose one game due to luck if i can win 9/10, I can live with the 10% loss.

BTW can you post or pm me the decklist that play crusader? I am really interested

[The Duck!!]

from my last build,changed it into this one. changed my land count to 20 because mid to late game,sometimes i'm mana flooding. took out 1 clique and replaced it with jace TMS and added 2 elspeths for the 2 open slots. elspeths gives added threat having a flying rhox war monk swinging for atleast 6 damage is really nice. any comments on this build? thanks.

4 noble hierarch
4 tarmogoyf
3 knight of the reliquary
2 qasali pridemage
3 rhox war monk
2 stoneforge mystic
1 vendilion clique

4 force of will
4 daze
4 swords to plowshares
4 brainstorm
2 umezawa's jitte
2 elspeth, knight errant
1 jace,the mind sculptor

3 misty rainforest
3 flooded strand
3 tropical island
3 tundra
3 wasteland
1 savannah
1 karakas
1 forest
1 plains
1 horizon's canopy

SB :
3 stifle
4 spell pierce
2 path to exile
2 tormod's crypt
1 relic of progenitus
1 bojuka bog
2 krosan grip

[_erbs_]

What decks do play phyrexian crusader? half their creatures put poison counters and the rest deal regular damage? It mast be a poison-only deck right? So what other options this deck has IF i have a FOW on my 1st hand, does it have tarmogoyf with infect? Consistent decks are the best ones, I do not mind to lose one game due to luck if i can win 9/10, I can live with the 10% loss.

BTW can you post or pm me the decklist that play crusader? I am really interested

The deck i was reffering to is this.., i really don't know what is called bec. its not eva green nor rock.. you may find this deck simple or lack luster on paper but come face to face with you'll how good it is. Zoo, gobs and bant will have a hard time up against this deck..

CREATURES [19]
3 dark confidant
4 gatekeeper of malakir
4 tarmogoyf
4 phyrexian crusader
4 vampire knighthawk

SPELLS [20]
3 dark ritual
2 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
2 go for the throat
1 smother
3 maelstorm pulse
2 umezawa's jitte
1 senei's divinning top

LANDS [21]
3 wasteland
1 volrath's stronghold / wasteland / swamp
4 bayou
4 verdant catacombs
2 marsh flats
7 swamps

The deck has sufficient disruption to make any CB or counter decks thing twice if he will let his opponent resolve its discard or creatures, most of them are a pain to deal with especially when your using the default bant deck bec once phyrexian sader resolves all your rhox and kotr no matter how big they are will all look dumb. You can't counter all of there threats , most of there creatures are removals. Once the sader gets a hold of jitte you'll instantly see a legendary creature stomping in your face, unless you have jace on your side and assuming pulse or discard doesn't hit him.

[DragoFireheart]

People need to stop underestimating Phyrexian Crusader. It's immune to swords and firespout and most black removal.

[CaBaaL]

nice deck IMO he will be great in deadguy ale (W/B) cause it has equipments too. He is not not better than tarmogoyf but he is huge!!

[hyc8028]

Anyone is trying Green Sun's Zenith in Bant Aggro?

I am thinking trying something like this:


Creatures - 17
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Rhox War Monk
3x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Trygon Predator
1x Eternal Witness

Instant - 19
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
3x Spell Pierce
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares

Sorcery - 5
3x Ponder
2x Green Sun's Zenith

Land - 19
4x Wasteland
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Windswept Heath
2x Flooded Strand
3x Tropical Island
3x Tundra
1x Island
1x Forest
1x Plains

[Snief]

Hello, I´m playing a Bant aggro list for the last few weeks with pretty good results (6th in a tournament with ~50 players and several times Top 4 in smaller tournaments). The list is as follows:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Trygon Predator

1 Umezawa´s Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland

SB
3 Spell Pierce
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Tormod´s Crypt
3 Path to Exile (/3 Hydroblasts, depending on Meta)
3 Krosan Grip

Although the decks runs fine, I would like improve my Merfolk matchup. Don´t get me wrong - I know that there is no way that Merfolk will become a good matchup as long as I am running blue and that a resolved Stoneforge Mystic often means GG; but i often had problems when i didn´t draw the right answer in time or just couldn´t resolve a relevant spell. So i was thinking - should I add Cold-Eyed Selkie (which was so-so in testing) or Llawan to the SB? And what to cut?

[Koby]

Seasinger is a good way to shore up some advantage, although it's pretty bad if they resolve Lord of Atlantis.

[The Duck!!]

Hello, I´m playing a Bant aggro list for the last few weeks with pretty good results (6th in a tournament with ~50 players and several times Top 4 in smaller tournaments). The list is as follows:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Trygon Predator

1 Umezawa´s Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland

SB
3 Spell Pierce
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Tormod´s Crypt
3 Path to Exile (/3 Hydroblasts, depending on Meta)
3 Krosan Grip

Although the decks runs fine, I would like improve my Merfolk matchup. Don´t get me wrong - I know that there is no way that Merfolk will become a good matchup as long as I am running blue and that a resolved Stoneforge Mystic often means GG; but i often had problems when i didn´t draw the right answer in time or just couldn´t resolve a relevant spell. So i was thinking - should I add Cold-Eyed Selkie (which was so-so in testing) or Llawan to the SB? And what to cut?

I like ths build. But I would cut 1 stifle and 1 spell snare to fit in 2 vendilion cliques or 2 jace, the mind sculptor. Sometimes in mid or late games, even in top deck modes, Jace TMS just wins you the game. Just my experience though.

[ivanpei]

Anyone is trying Green Sun's Zenith in Bant Aggro?

There's a thread going on here about GSZ.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19772-Zenith-Order-%28GUW-GWB%29

In short, GSZ is the nuts in bant, especially with dryad arbor/natural order.

[TheMarine]

Anyone thinking about playing with Thrun the last Troll? I think it´s great against merfolk, because it cannot be countered. It´s also a big body and can regenerate. He´s good against countertop too. He is going to enter the battlefield and survives firespout. Against zoo, there´s no way they can remove Thrun from the game. I was playing with two Elspeth and i am going to exchange for two Thrun´s.

[damionblackgear]

I had it in the list but I decided that it wasn't strong enough to actually use it right now though. You'll have to let me know how it turns out in testing as I cut it before I got into to extensive of testing. At first it turned into an Elspeth but, now it's a Pridemage. I haven't added any of the new cards beyond testing.

[ivanpei]

I don't like thrun because he's too small. He might be great vs countertop because he has shroud and can't be countered, but against zoo, 4 mana for a dude that's smaller than kotr/ goyf is pretty bad. Also elspeth is "big n splashy" by sending a giant flying kotr/goyf over your opponents dudes FTW. Elspeth is also awesome against control because a token every turn is insanely annoying and difficult to handle. I still prefer elspeth.

[CaBaaL]

today i wanted to try progenitous in the local tournament only to see how much unprepared my meta is.
my list:

4 Noble Hieararch
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Vendilion Clique
1 progenitous

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 natural order
1 Engeneered explosives

3 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 dryad

Sideboard:

1 Engeneered explosives
3 path to exile
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 nature's claim
2 Spell Pierce
1 vendilion clique
2 jace, mind sculptor


I forgot to add an empirial archangel in SB and i remebered one game late :P

1st game vs boros deck wins

a part type2 battlecry a part old-school white-weenie-shadow creatures, tarmogoyfs and rhox easily take the game around 5-6turn

SB: I didn't see a lot of spells so i removed 1fow, 1 daze,1 explosives for 3 paths

he SB out all his white creatures and now he is playing red deck wins I keep a slow hand with fetchlands and ponders-brainstorms and i drop to 1 life fast, rhox came in and with exalted efects (and a sword on my reliquary) i stabilize fast and win this

1/0

2nd game Vs R/w goblin

I thought he is playing zoo and i do not mull my no fow no sword hand and I am forced to block with my noble, 2 pridemages hold the line and kill a vial double daze and a fow for 2 ringleaders and seage gang make him scoop ( i fowed removing progenitous, i didn't see any knight, goyf or rhox. I acualy won with 2 noble hierarchs and 2 pridemages and a couple of swords)

+3 paths,-1 explosives,-1 clique,-1daze (was 2nd and it sucks)

keep semi-crap hand with noble+daze+fow my 8th card is progenitous.. he has vial 1st turn and i let it cause i have 2 pridemages, he miss his land drop and i daze his lackey next turn quasali takes his vial and for some turns we play draw-go and atack with my 2nd pridemage
i get a brainstorm but i do not have a shuffle for progenitous neither NO so i keep it. A rhox joins in for the beat down while he has only 1 piledriver and 1 lackie I get him on 7 life while i am on 30something and i draw NO and with brainstorm i get progenitous in(only for the over kill :P )

2/0

3rd game Vs rock

I know his deck it is a copy/paste for a champion in MTGO, his weakness? only 12 creatures and 4 of them darck confidants
I keep a mana-heavy hand cause i know that he has wastelands and vindicates but i have fow, NO and brainstorm. I get thoughtseized and he takes fow, I am expecting a hymn to turach so i do not drop noble hierarch to have brainstorm, he does have a hymn and i brainstorm keeping my have full of lands exept the noble hierarch (he picks him in random). next turn he plays a darck confidant thoughtseize my only nonland card (a fow) and i play NO sacking my fetched dryad for progenitous, he is at 11 life (by fetching and thoughtseizing) and bob reveals targmogoyf so he scoops

-NO package (+the land) for 2jace,+clique,+3 paths I am expetcking some king of hate so i put jace +extra body(clique)

I keep a 1 land hand with 2 nobles and 2 daze he wastes my land and swords my hierach... I do not draw a land for the turn and things look bad..
I draw a savanah and i drop hierarch, again he has a sword and a wasteland. At this point i think everything got lost and i want to scoop..
BUT the deck smiles on me and i draw my trusted tropical dazing his tarmo and brainstroming on more lands. next turn daze on tarmo #2 and sword on his bob make him go on top deck-mode with a SDtop as his only permanent. SDTop consumes his mana to draw every turn and i stabilize with a knight and a vclique. knight gets karakas and i filter his hand. then kill his elpeths while on 4 life and end the game with a huge (~15/15) knight

3/0 he was so frustrated that he droped the turnament (lol)

4rth game Vs rock

he is my team mate so we ID

3/1/0

5th game Vs ravager
progenitous 3rd turn

SB:do not remeber but 100% +3 paths and +2 nature's claim

He starts hard but fow and daze keep him under control the protection from all colors met a 2nd fow and natures claim for his plating (he did had any creatures I play killed it for psycological reasons) tarmo and knight drop him to single digit life and brainstorm reveals a NO and i get progenitous for an overkill :P

4/1/0 undifeated 1st get some boosters and i open 2 tezzerets, 1 foil and one non foil nexus!! :D

pros:

progenitous is fun to play unless you draw him ( happened some times and i got depressed)
very fast wins with progenitous reminds me back when i palyed Bant Survival and got 3rd turn Iona :P
getting 1st AND opening 150$+ worth of cards!

Cons:

drawing progenitous after pondering him away..
drawing progenitous after brainstorming him away
play brainstorm and see 0 blue cards and pitch progenitous only to draw NO after some turns (I am thinking adding rafiq of the many for a 2nd target)

[Piceli89]

I'ts fucking Progenitus, not progenitous.

[MWR]

I'ts fucking Progenitus, not progenitous.

and you meant It's and not I'ts, so what's the point ;-) ?

[maximumcarnage]

and you meant It's and not I'ts, so what's the point ;-) ?

LOL! Nice.

[baghdadbob]

Ohhhhhhh shit! It's onnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!!!!!!!!

[menace13]

Hello, I´m playing a Bant aggro list for the last few weeks with pretty good results (6th in a tournament with ~50 players and several times Top 4 in smaller tournaments). The list is as follows:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Trygon Predator

1 Umezawa´s Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland

SB
3 Spell Pierce
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Tormod´s Crypt
3 Path to Exile (/3 Hydroblasts, depending on Meta)
3 Krosan Grip

Although the decks runs fine, I would like improve my Merfolk matchup. Don´t get me wrong - I know that there is no way that Merfolk will become a good matchup as long as I am running blue and that a resolved Stoneforge Mystic often means GG; but i often had problems when i didn´t draw the right answer in time or just couldn´t resolve a relevant spell. So i was thinking - should I add Cold-Eyed Selkie (which was so-so in testing) or Llawan to the SB? And what to cut?

If Merfolk is played heavily in your meta try replacing KotR with RWM and dropping Stifles for 3-4 Vials will make it favorable. Vial makes sure Stoneforge resolves and RWM keeps you alive on exalted triggers. You do not need to drop an Island or replay it after Daze and Wastelands hit them in this mu stick to forest, plains, Savannah and Nobles.

[damionblackgear]

Is there any alternate option to Path? I'd rather not advance my opponent any more than I have to.

[sclabman]

I'd think running a Trygon Predator as an alternate Natural Order target would be better. Maybe both it and Rafiq, even, but Trygon can be Ordered up when there's a bunch of annoying artifacts out that need to be taken care of... I dunno, it's just a thought.

[luudes]

am whipping up a list for a 20-30 man this weekend, probably lots of merfolk and CBtop in the meta. Was thinking about natural order/ show and tell but that seems poor in the expected meta so I put this together.

4 vial
3 hierarch
2 StP
3 brainstorm

4 goyf
4 pridemage
2 stoneforge
3 daze

4 RWM
2 Clique
1 SOFI
1 SOLS

3 natural order
2 Jace TMS

4 FoW
1 progi

3 trop
3 tundra
1 plains
1 island
1 forest
8 fetch, 4 MRF, 2 WSH, 2 FS

1 jitte
2 StP
2 sower
2 llawan
2 perimeter captain
1 dueling grounds
1 wheel of sun and moon
1 tormods crypt
1 relic of prog
2 enlightened tutor

I havent tried the stoneforge package yet but it seems to get pretty good reviews on these boards and I thought it worth a try but still have not tested it much. The list is at 19 creatures and 19 blue spells so close to a good threshold for both vial and FoW. Any comments/ criticisms? One concern is 17 lands but it has been working now. Seems alright with 3 hierachs and vials. Anyone have experience testing land number in a deck like this.

[damionblackgear]

I'd suggest Body and Mind with the Natural Order package. Extra Green Creature and can swing past green creatures.

[useL]

1 SOFI

1 SOLS

I suggest that you remove one of these to the sideboard and replace with a Jitte. I have run a similar BANT-deck now in tournaments and jitte is the bomb against so many decks.

[damionblackgear]

Anyone else having issues with affinity? What're you all doing to stop that matchup?

[TheMarine]

If you play with Qasali base you have a good weapon against affinity. With path to exile, krosan grip and pithing needle sideboard, i think it´s enough against affinity. Plus, this cards are good against other match ups. That´s important because there isn´t much affinity around.

[JadeOberg]

Anyone else having issues with affinity? What're you all doing to stop that matchup?


I've always found Spell Snare awesome against them. Lately I've been beating my buddy in testing due to GSZ for a singleton Trygon Pred....but thats a GSZ build

[damionblackgear]

Is the GSZ turning out to be an improvement? I'm still skeptical about it. I'm still worried since the games are literally ending on turn 3-4 so that's just long enough to be able to cast the zenith for 3.

I use to have 3 Preditors in the board but decided on K.Grip after getting stuck behind an Ensnaring Bridge. I think I'll try a 2/1 split since I have 2 Pridemage right now as well.

[Mirrislegend]

Is anyone working on this deck sans NO-Prog? I can't acquire Natural Orders, but I feel like the deck should still be functional without it. For reference, I'm running the first list in the opening post of this thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19622-U-G-W-Vial-Bant

[damionblackgear]

I'm not using progenitus. I feel its clunky and is more inconsistent than the Stoneforge package. What questions did you have? I may not have answers most people will agree with but I can at least give you my thoughts.

[mossivo1986]

I am curious if anyone tested no bant against pt junk. What were the results? Does counterbalance play the biggest role in getting to the natural order stage, or can it be done easily without.

Please dont theorize this information for me. Im looking for actual testing results.

[damionblackgear]

Progenitus is an issue for the Rock styled players. you only need to keep 1 Guy alive. I know that they've built up their discard sweet but, you can do things to negate that. It's the only issue we have with the deck. *You wanted testing results but I can't give you any. I can tell you that I'm a Rock player but, I didn't keep numbers though.

Another Side Question, What alternatives are there for Goyf? I have 4 and every time I play one I want to burn it. I've replaced one with a Stoneforge and haven't looked back yet. I'm looking to replace the other 3 but I feel that it's not supposed to be that card. Currently I'm looking at U/W Guildmage (can't remember name), Pride of the Clouds, and Meddling Mage but each of these feels... like they're lacking. Does anyone have alternatives they're using?

[mossivo1986]

It depends on the style of deck your playing. I play a tempo deck which goyf is probably the weakest creature in the deck, but vastly superior to a card like stoneforge mystic, because of timing constraints.

[thecrav]

To those asking about the power of Green Sun's Zenith: I put two in my deck as soon as they came out of the packs. A few modifications later and I'm currently running the following list:


4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Vendillion Clique
1 Eternal Witness
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Trygon Predator

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Planes
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard:
(Currently designed for a generalized metagame)
3 Dueling Grounds
1 Bujoka Bog
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
3 Spell Pierce
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast



Some thoughts:
Green Sun's Zenith makes one-of utility creatures playable. Trygon Predator is the obvious one listed here but you can also grab Qasali Pridemage to exalt or guarantee-destroy-that-artifact or Eternal Witness to recur another creature. -- That's in addition to the already ridiculous power of being able to fetch for any of the beaters in the deck.

Some people have been claiming GSZ is unplayable without Dryad Arbor. I completely disagree. I'd much rather have a turn one Noble Hierarch and hold the Zenith for something more useful.

Thoughts not about GSZ:
Rhox War Monk is insane. Turn 2 War Monk is almost always GG and if you don't get him, you can Zenith for him by turn 4 at the latest. I think 3 of is sub-par given how powerful he is.

Tarmogoyf[cards] is almost always smaller than [cards]Knight of the Reliquary. About the only time he's larger is early game or after my graveyard has been exiled. I'm considering dropping him to a 2 of for +1 Rhox War Monk and +1 Knight of the Reliquary. My only concern is that I would then only have 3 total 2 drop creatures - is that a problem in a deck that has 3 mana on turn 2 so frequently?

I've never lost a game in which I'd resolved Elspeth, Knight Errant but I have lost with a Jace, The Mind Sculptor active. I'm considering changing this up to 2x Elspeth.

Any input or commentary is greatly appreciated! I am admittedly still fairly new at this deck so most people in this thread probably know more than I do!

[jandax]

-4 Tarmogoyf
-1 Jace
+4 Natural Order
+1 Progenitus

Just let that sink in a sec


...


...



You stated that these two cards are underperforming. Understandably, one might see these cards for their power yet overlook what they might actually be doing to the deck. Five equally powerful cards in their own vacuum can be substituted, no new tech here, but adding the NOpro package gives you a potentially rapid clock while in itself being outs to various strategies you're likely to face.

Move the goyf's to the board or something, move some other cards around. But give it a try, others have enjoyed success already with GSZ/NOPro

[sdematt]

RE: The Rock matchup, sometimes Counterbalance is annoying, othertimes not. I found preboard that Progenitus is harder to get rid of, but we bring in Progenitus be gone from the board.

Sometimes we get there against you, as we have a crap-ton of removal. But, othertimes you just rush us and we die, discard or not.

Am I afraid to see NO Bant in a tournament? No. Do I need to play well to pull out a solid win? Yeah, it's not a bye, that's for damn sure.


-Matt

[CaBaaL]

what are your thoughts putting Green Sun zenith in probant? I tried some games and felt really powerfull, mostly against countertop and tribal decks. Any sugestions?

[SMR0079]

No disucssion on Aj's 2nd place list from Memphis?

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37133

Maxing out on both Natural Order and GSZ with a tutor package of singletons. I like how he focuses on the decks most powerful plays while simeltaneously adding consistency.
Thoughts?

[SMR0079]

I like how he focuses on the decks most powerfulplays while simeltaneously adding consistency through GSZ & Ponder.

[mossivo1986]

My favorite thing about his deck is that he's playing 3 needle in his board. My least favorite thing is that he's overvaluing a tutor instead of just playing the threats.

Zenith is a good tutor, and a fine utility spell as a 1-2 of in bant. It is not a replacement for good threats and a better mana-base. He's a good player, piloting a bad deck with a broken factor. Congrats A.J. on your performance.

[CaBaaL]

My favorite thing about his deck is that he's playing 3 needle in his board. My least favorite thing is that he's overvaluing a tutor instead of just playing the threats.

Zenith is a good tutor, and a fine utility spell as a 1-2 of in bant. It is not a replacement for good threats and a better mana-base. He's a good player, piloting a bad deck with a broken factor. Congrats A.J. on your performance.

agree 100% My goyfs are getting sworded, perished, ediced and smothered I do now know how he was able to win the games with only 2 and siglton creatures.. any report?

[mossivo1986]

Report on what. He's A.J. Sacher. He's a professional. I'm pretty sure he doesn't mope around the source like us :P

[jazzykat]

Zenith is a good tutor, and a fine utility spell as a 1-2 of in bant. It is not a replacement for good threats and a better mana-base. He's a good player, piloting a bad deck with a broken factor. Congrats A.J. on your performance.


I would say exactly this myself, but until I test it I won't.

[CaBaaL]

Report on what. He's A.J. Sacher. He's a professional. I'm pretty sure he doesn't mope around the source like us :P

:P nice

anyone have the link for the full event? the top8 decklist or metagame?

[luckme10]

Report on what. He's A.J. Sacher. He's a professional. I'm pretty sure he doesn't mope around the source like us :P


http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21398_Stuck_Inside_a_Mobile_With_A_Memphis_Cold_Again.html

[CaBaaL]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21398_Stuck_Inside_a_Mobile_With_A_Memphis_Cold_Again.html

lol for the report, It seems that every deck packs 4 ponders and 4 brainstorms nowdays. How it works out for you guys? For me with all 8 of them I lose turns only pondering and brainstorming ( I try keep brainstorms to only play with fetshlands or in "youlose" positions) but when your oponent casts a huge knight or your tarmogoyf got exiled and you need something to block, I lose turns finding an "answer" rather than getting a threat in the board.

[Rekk]

I've been playing with aj sackers Green sun NO bant list (on Lackey) and haven't had the greatest success. I mostly blame myself for this as I'm relatively new to the deck and am primarily a Merfolk player. Has anyone tested this deck and if so what are it's good matchups and band matchups. Also any tips on how to play the deck or if you think any changes should be made to it. I'll even accept rants about hating the deck as long as you have reasons why.

[TUMBLES]

I wouldn't go looking to change the deck when you haven't tested enough to even know its matchups :)

[Rekk]

I wouldn't go looking to change the deck when you haven't tested enough to even know its matchups :)

I know its bad against merfolk.
Team america is pretty rough.
Dredge isn't ever a real deck.
Burn dies to rox war monk
Affinity is usually in my favor with a good hand.

I don't really plan on changing the deck i just want to hear what people who have more time and more experience with the deck have to say. Any advice?
I don't want to assume that i have the matchups right i could be playing the deck poorly or my opponents could be facing the matchup poorly.

[CaBaaL]

best way to beat merfolk is not letting any islands in game, with noble hierarch is realative easy, even if they do start with land-vial, mutavault-standstill and you started with land noble a fets can get a dryad and with noble you can have the same presure in board and on his end of turn crack stand stil with either swords in mutavault or brainstorm and force him to discard 1 card or if he is a noob fow your spell then a resolved goyf/knight/terravore (i do not really like him but i try him this time around) can end the game there.

AJ's list is combo oriented, In the end you either resolve natural order or you did not, a lotus comba could be good in this list cause most of the time i just ramp mana and cast lotus combra with fow/pierce(i prefer daze btw) back up. So this makes team america an hard MU (team america rocks against low-count-threat deck) and merfolk can only worry for your NO. Other lists pack 4 goyfs or mystic package that instantly send tribals on game 2. So if my meta didn't had any merfolks, junk, countertop decks or BUG control and had only zoo, red deck wins and goblins I would allready playing it cause its the best deck ever.

btw I replaced v. clique (have 2 in SB) with Scryb Ranger and never looked back, she reminds me the old days that i was playing ATS and its enough for me :P

[Rekk]

Thank you for the help.
What would you say is the best version of NO bant i don't feel like buying the stone forge package and already own the Natural orders. I feel like increasing the threat density is a good idea, that way this deck was a solid Plan B of beat down with a sick game ending combo.

[menace13]

Dredge isn't ever a real deck.
.

Luckily for you you dont play in 5ks.

[damionblackgear]

If you're going to run the NO package you should probably modify AJ's old list. I'm not a fan of the Progen package though. still makes you spend money on Zenith if you don't have them.

Also, if you do decide to play the equipment package instead, play Body and Mind over Fire and Ice. I know it sounds crazy but I'm just going to have to ask you to trust me on that. *You're wallet will love you too.