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Tao
01-12-2010, 07:11 AM
This deck is supposed to be a mixture between GW Haterator, Aggro Fish and a Survival deck. I have had the idea in mind for quite a while now and I think this list is very competitive.

First of all the list.

// Mana
4 [U] Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [7E] Forest
1 [MI] Plains
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FNM] Mother of Runes
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
1 [FD] Eternal Witness

1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers

Removal and Engine
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
2 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
1 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
1 Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 2 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [10E] Rule of Law
SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo

[B]Game plan
The deck tries to play aggressive while disrupting the opponent.
With Noble Hierarch, Goyf, Pridemage and KotR you can curve out aggressively and deal a lot of damage in short time.

It also plays a good amount of disruption: Pridemage is a Disenchant effect and Gaddock is really awesome in a Meta full of Explosives, Forces and Natural Orders etc. and helps at least a bit against Tendrils and Dream Halls.
Wastelands in combination with KotR can slow the opponent down a lot. The Iona-Combo often wins the game for you nearly by itself and Mother of Runes helps both plans by protecting all those creatures.
Furthermore you also have some games that are just won by Survivals card advantage.
The deck has a very nice curve and I am rarely dissppointed with its starting hands.

Synergies
- the obvious synergies are Enlightened Tutor plus Enchantments/Artifacts, the usual Survival stuff and KotR + Wastelands. These may be obvious but they make the deck very consistent so I mention them nevertheless.
- Loyal Retainers / Iona Combo. This Combo is especially strong in this deck because of Mother of Runes. Usually you have to put Iona on the color of their Removal so that Iona not dies. But with Mother of Runes in play you can name the most important color and not the splash removal color. For example against Zoo you can name Red so they can't burn you out and protect Iona from PtE with Mother. Against Tempo Thresh you can do the same thing with naming Red and not blue for their Bounce spells (which they usually find if they want). In both cases Iona will also protect you from their creature army so that you very likely won't lose the game.
- Mother of Runes / Gaddock Teeg: Against many decks having these two in play is worth more than anything else. It locks out many control decks that operate with Explosives, Moat or Wrath and it also gives you a fighting chance against Combo. Get a lucky draw with Turn 1 Mom and turn 2 Gaddock and you will beat ANT.


Card Choices

Lands:
3 Wasteland: Can't fit in a 4th, because Gaddock, Pridemage and Survival have high color requirements.
2 Horizon Canopy: Fits the Mana base, synergy with KotR


Creatures:
Mother of Runes: SO awesome. Protects your Goyfs, Gaddocks, KotRs and also your Iona and makes the deck curve really good.

Noble Hierarch, Tarmogoyf: Not much explaing needed I guess.

Qasali Pridemage, Gaddock Teeg: Would play 4 of both if it wasn't for Tarmogoyf. Teeg is a bit better but Legendary so a 3/3 split feels right.

KotR: The big beater. Usually gets at least 6/6 and often even bigger. Usually tutors Wastelands but can also find Canopies if you need gas.

Kitchen Finks/Witness: Survival targets. More Kitchen Finks miss the maindeck very close but KotR is just better.

Iona/Retainers: Incredibly powerful Combo for a pure G/W deck and also very cheap. Usually one of the first things to be done as soon as you have enough Mana.

Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares, 4 Survival of the Fittest: Not much to say.

2 Enlightened Tutor, 1 Jitte, 1 O-Ring: If I want to do fancy stuff I get Survival to make Iona, so every Tutor target is also a good card when drawn.
Tutor makes the deck much more consistent. It usually acts as Survival 5+6 but against Zoo or Dredge it can find Jitte and if your opponent Moats you or something similar you get rid of it with O Ring.

Sideboard:

Most of the cards can be tutored for so that explains the many 1 and 2 offs. Elspeth is to fight control decks and Grip against Counterbalances and Moats. Runed Halo is in there because Progenitus is so popular by now. The 4th Gaddock comes in against Combo and Control, Finks and Jitte against Tribal and Zoo. Also make sure to side out the Iona Combo if you don't get enough out of it in a certain matchup (like when they counter your Survivals) or if the opponent hates the graveyard too much. Also side out E. Tutors against decks with counterspells.

I can't speak for every matchp in detail but generally I side like this:

Matchups:

I have played a lot of games, but not tested matchups with real statistics yet so I make it short to not say something wrong.
Landstill, Aggro and Aggro Control feel solid, Dredge and Staxx too, Combo is not so good.

Kesta
01-12-2010, 10:46 AM
just a brainfart...adding a nice life combo: Saffi Eriksdotter + Retainers + soul warden...
huh maybe overkill :-)

Well your deck sounds strong. I'll test it, but i don't like not having black with Survival.

ReverentChastity
01-12-2010, 06:22 PM
I had a very similar GW survival deck a bit ago that did well enough vs a lot of things but I kept getting my Dreams Devastated :frown:, and dropped it. But here's some food for thought:

I used Sylvan Safekeeper over Mother of Runes, I like the mini-synergy with Knight and the lack of relevant summoning sickness, and the ability to activate multiple times to chain removal.

Iona wasn't out yet so I used Oriss, Samite Guardian + Genisis for a close to hard lock with Safekeeper.

I also had 1 Kor Haven my Knight could fetch which was really handy, unlike Maze of Ith it taps mana, and only the attacking creatures damage is prevented, so you could gang block with small creatures to kill a big attacker and not lose any small creatures.

Wargoos
01-12-2010, 07:41 PM
Hey Tao, I know you aren't "some random" guy but a very expierenced survival player but I still have some issues and maybe tweaks for your awesome looking gw decksketch.

1. One Kitchen Fink
I think that we can agree, that this one is an awesome card to have and a necessity in an aggro packed meta.
While KotR is a better thread, finks can handle zoo so much better and should get the nod over a 4th Knight.

2. Tutor Engine
In a deck without any (or very limited) carddraw possibilities this seems less viable since it still is carddisadvantage, even if it gets you a survival/ORing.
I think I would drop them altogether and put in 2 Sylvan Libraries, which are plain awesome in aggro decks. Also Libraries synergize a bit with finks.

3. One Oblivion Ring - silverbullet.
Well you are playing 4 Survivals and just 2 Tutors, why not playing a mangara of korondor main. I understand that mangara is a creature and can't get rid of stuff ASAP, but won't get carddisadvantage if you survival for it and you can defend it with a mother.

4. Just 2 Canopies.
You are playing a two colored deck and don't have big mana problems - but library manipulation is rare. Why not running a 3rd Canopy over a duel?

That's all I can think off as right now.
I would probably play the deck like this (I'll definitaley test this :D ):

3 Savannah
4 Windswepth Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Forest
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
3 Horizon Canopy

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Mother of Runes
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Mangara of Corondor

1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Loyal Retainers

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:

3 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
1 Empyrial Archangel

Tell me what you think!

beastman
01-12-2010, 08:13 PM
I like the idea, but I would up the finks count to help against zoo.

Wargoos
01-12-2010, 08:26 PM
I like the idea, but I would up the finks count to help against zoo.

2 finks and 2 jitte md is enough.
Also postboard you get more outs - zoo gets nothing.

BackDr0p
01-12-2010, 08:38 PM
This list has one problem with it, it runs no disruption and has no real answer to Counterbalance main deck. I would highly recommend running Wickerborough Elder as a solution to problematic Enchantment/artifact along side Qasali Pridemage.

eq.firemind
01-13-2010, 01:50 AM
I'm testing similar deck (WG Survival/Death and Taxes hybrid) and I run 4 Aether Vial. The card shows very good results. We have a bunch of good creatures with 1-2-3 costs, Survival decks are generaly manahungry (wich means manadenial can hurt), we want to be able to use Wastelands and Canopies earlier and we need more outs against countermagic.
I guess you should try Vial (also, it'll be easier to include 4th Wasteland).

Also, my deck runs no Iona+Retainers. I think we have just enough tools for any situation if our Survival starts working and the combo screwed my topdecks too much when I have no Sur.

Tao
01-13-2010, 05:18 AM
Thx for the feedback. Here are my thoughts to your ideas.

Ather Vial: First of all Vial because the card sounds logical and good. But I don't like Aether Vial in this deck: While it gets the creatures around Countermagic, it does not get the Survival around Countermagic so you run out of creatures very fast if they can counter. If you don't have Survival your creatures are cheap enough to just be casted. And with Survival it is worse and takes more slots than the Iona Combo. Goblins, Merfolk and D&T work different and Vial is much better in these decks.

Iona/Retainers Combo: This Combo is WAY too good to not be played. It is cheap, doesn't take many slots and is not disrupted by Removal. The combination of it's strength and simplicity easily crushes the theory of "don't play too Combo-ish because if you have Survival you are in a good shape anyways". All other Survival Combos are either clumsy or easily disruptable or take way too many slots or need more cards than just Survival + creature to go online. The Combo will easily win you far more games that you would have lost otherwise than it loses you because you drew a Combo piece instead of a spell. It is not even close.

Sylvan Library: I like this idea a lot and have replaced E Tutors with it. The deck needs a 5th and 6th spell with impact beneath Survival, and Library might be better than E Tutor. However, I somehow also miss the flexibility of E. Tutors, getting your yard and combo hate right on turn 2 was always good. Really not sure between the two cards but I think Library is the right choice.

Finks Count: I first started with a 3/3 split between Finks and KotR, then removed one Fink to get a 3rd Pridemage and finally decided to go split 4/1. The logic behind that was to follow your own instead of trying to prepare for every single deck, be it Zoo or Dredge or Countertop. It would just take up so many slots, a Faerie Macabre here, Wickerbough Elder there, another Fink here, also Genesis and soon you have to cut a whole playset of something.

That said I might be wrong about Finks because they are not only good in the Zoo matchup, they are also good against both Tribal decks and somehow solid in ever other matchup.

No CB-Solution MD: The only thing WB Elder does what Pridemage does not is to destroy CB. Unlike a few month ago Countertop isn't the defining deck of the format anymore. Zoo, ANT and Merfolk are at least the same in popularity and furthermore there are always like 50 decks around in Legacy so Countertop won't be more than 15-20% of the field.
Also WB Elder is not likely going to destroy Counterbalance because it requires so much to happen. It requires you to have an active Survival while they have Countertop active, then you have to have 5 Mana (better 6 Mana so they can't Daze/Sword it) on the table and them having no Force of Will. And if all that really happened then they are not allowed to just go Brainstorm - Ponder - next Counterbalance. All this combined is so unlikely that it makes it much better to play a better card MD (like another Finks) and just rely on Pridemages for Disenchants and let Grips take care of CBs.
The Countertop matchup is not bad. You pressure them a lot and if they can't find their Combo right away they get too far behind on the board, especially if they couldn't take care of Mother of Runes.

Mangara: Danger of cool things alert ;)
It might be possible to abuse him in a D&T Survival but in this deck it is not good. Survivaling him up and then waiting a whole turn doesn't make the cut, if you can target the problem you already have Pridemages to tutor or 4 Swords to draw (or Witness to regain Swords). Your list would be better with the 4th Mother of Runes instead of him.

Sylvan Safekeeper: I think Mother of Runes is superior in every way. Mother can also block and give evasion but most importantly doesn't force you choose between 2 bad things (losing a land and sacrificing a creature).

Maze/Kor Haven: I think Kor Haven needs too much Mana to be worth. Usually you want to be the aggressive player or at least be in the race but if you spend one Knight activation and from then on tap 3 Mana each turn to fog one creature you pretty much quit the race.

Wargoos
01-13-2010, 06:36 AM
Thx for the feedback. Here are my thoughts to your ideas.

Ather Vial: First of all Vial because the card sounds logical and good. But I don't like Aether Vial in this deck: While it gets the creatures around Countermagic, it does not get the Survival around Countermagic so you run out of creatures very fast if they can counter. If you don't have Survival your creatures are cheap enough to just be casted. And with Survival it is worse and takes more slots than the Iona Combo. Goblins, Merfolk and D&T work different and Vial is much better in these decks.

Iona/Retainers Combo: This Combo is WAY too good to not be played. It is cheap, doesn't take many slots and is not disrupted by Removal. The combination of it's strength and simplicity easily crushes the theory of "don't play too Combo-ish because if you have Survival you are in a good shape anyways". All other Survival Combos are either clumsy or easily disruptable or take way too many slots or need more cards than just Survival + creature to go online. The Combo will easily win you far more games that you would have lost otherwise than it loses you because you drew a Combo piece instead of a spell. It is not even close.

Sylvan Library: I like this idea a lot and have replaced E Tutors with it. The deck needs a 5th and 6th spell with impact beneath Survival, and Library might be better than E Tutor. However, I somehow also miss the flexibility of E. Tutors, getting your yard and combo hate right on turn 2 was always good. Really not sure between the two cards but I think Library is the right choice.

Finks Count: I first started with a 3/3 split between Finks and KotR, then removed one Fink to get a 3rd Pridemage and finally decided to go split 4/1. The logic behind that was to follow your own instead of trying to prepare for every single deck, be it Zoo or Dredge or Countertop. It would just take up so many slots, a Faerie Macabre here, Wickerbough Elder there, another Fink here, also Genesis and soon you have to cut a whole playset of something.

That said I might be wrong about Finks because they are not only good in the Zoo matchup, they are also good against both Tribal decks and somehow solid in ever other matchup.

No CB-Solution MD: The only thing WB Elder does what Pridemage does not is to destroy CB. Unlike a few month ago Countertop isn't the defining deck of the format anymore. Zoo, ANT and Merfolk are at least the same in popularity and furthermore there are always like 50 decks around in Legacy so Countertop won't be more than 15-20% of the field.
Also WB Elder is not likely going to destroy Counterbalance because it requires so much to happen. It requires you to have an active Survival while they have Countertop active, then you have to have 5 Mana (better 6 Mana so they can't Daze/Sword it) on the table and them having no Force of Will. And if all that really happened then they are not allowed to just go Brainstorm - Ponder - next Counterbalance. All this combined is so unlikely that it makes it much better to play a better card MD (like another Finks) and just rely on Pridemages for Disenchants and let Grips take care of CBs.
The Countertop matchup is not bad. You pressure them a lot and if they can't find their Combo right away they get too far behind on the board, especially if they couldn't take care of Mother of Runes.

Mangara: Danger of cool things alert ;)
It might be possible to abuse him in a D&T Survival but in this deck it is not good. Survivaling him up and then waiting a whole turn doesn't make the cut, if you can target the problem you already have Pridemages to tutor or 4 Swords to draw (or Witness to regain Swords). Your list would be better with the 4th Mother of Runes instead of him.

Sylvan Safekeeper: I think Mother of Runes is superior in every way. Mother can also block and give evasion but most importantly doesn't force you choose between 2 bad things (losing a land and sacrificing a creature).

Maze/Kor Haven: I think Kor Haven needs too much Mana to be worth. Usually you want to be the aggressive player or at least be in the race but if you spend one Knight activation and from then on tap 3 Mana each turn to fog one creature you pretty much quit the race.

Seems all reasonable.
Also I totally agree on the Vial issue here.
While it is good, this deck cannot support it as effectively as merfolk or goblins could do. Those tribal decks have all draw effects (Ringleader/ Adept & Standstill etc.) so that drawing it midgame isn't as bad as it would be in this deck. You just can't afford to draw a blank aether vial turn 7 in a deck packed with plains and forests.

@ Tao: I hope you'll find some time to test the matchups and update the o.p.
I so hope that this can be made viable.

eq.firemind
01-13-2010, 06:56 AM
Ather Vial: First of all Vial because the card sounds logical and good. But I don't like Aether Vial in this deck: While it gets the creatures around Countermagic, it does not get the Survival around Countermagic so you run out of creatures very fast if they can counter. If you don't have Survival your creatures are cheap enough to just be casted. And with Survival it is worse and takes more slots than the Iona Combo. Goblins, Merfolk and D&T work different and Vial is much better in these decks.
Sound fair, but my important argument was that alongside help against countermagic Vial helps your cool lands. You can activate your Wastelands and Canopies earlier and including 4th Wasteland is not a problem anymore.

I've played a lot of WG decks from straigh WG midrange to WG DnT to Sur/DnT mix. In the end the package of 4 Vial + 4 Hierarch was in every deck 'cause I wanted to maximise a number of explosive starts (just like each and every Goblin deck plays 4 Vial + 4 Lackey). The comparison with Goblins is not accidental 'cause after my opponent figures out what cards am I playing, he tried to get rid of turn 1 Hierarch/Vial just like everyone will try to stop turn 1 Lackey/Vial. But anyway, you are centanly not wrong about Vial too. Looks like an individual gamestyle question...

Mangara: Danger of cool things alert ;)
It might be possible to abuse him in a D&T Survival but in this deck it is not good. Survivaling him up and then waiting a whole turn doesn't make the cut, if you can target the problem you already have Pridemages to tutor or 4 Swords to draw (or Witness to regain Swords). Your list would be better with the 4th Mother of Runes instead of him.
If you have Vial, you can weaken the manabase a little to fit in 1-2 Karakas (tutorable by KotR) and just have DnT's main trick in your deck. Also, Karakas is funny against Iona and Marit Lage and saves your Teeg from StP if you don't have Mother.

But that's just my preferences and the influence of my pet deck. I guess if you want agressive WG survival, your direction is right and Iona+Retainers is just the right bomb for the deck.

ricste88
01-13-2010, 09:29 AM
Try to put 1 Painter Servant...you can take it with survival and with Iona in play is gg

oRen
01-13-2010, 09:40 AM
Try to put 1 Painter Servant...you can take it with survival and with Iona in play is gg

iona in play should be gg anyway ...
there is no need for overextending ...

crow_mw
01-13-2010, 10:09 AM
I am looking forward to reading how does the Kotr+Wasteland tech work during playtesting. While it looks very tempting, Survival builds are well known for being mana hungry and not very keen on sacrificing their own lands.

ricste88
01-13-2010, 01:59 PM
1)I think that you can drop Kitchen Finks to put in a nice "combo" that save u from Burn, zoo and that is a great close against Merfolk: Mirror Entity + Ravenous Baloth....with Mirror all your creatures gain changeling and with baloth in play you can gain a lot of life...against merfolk is a bomb if your opponent has a Lord of Atlantis on the battlefield...he pump you creatures and give them islandwalk...if you have 3/4 creatures and 4 mana open is gg.

2)Why don't you run 1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary?

Wargoos
01-13-2010, 02:09 PM
1)I think that you can drop Kitchen Finks to put in a nice "combo" that save u from Burn, zoo and that is a great close against Merfolk: Mirror Entity + Ravenous Baloth....with Mirror all your creatures gain changeling and with baloth in play you can gain a lot of life...against merfolk is a bomb if your opponent has a Lord of Atlantis on the battlefield...he pump you creatures and give them islandwalk...if you have 3/4 creatures and 4 mana open is gg.

2)Why don't you run 1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary?

1) Fitchen Finks is way more viable on itself than Mirror Entity and the baloth.
Which has a cute synergy but seems just win-more.
Also sacrificing your whole creature base is never a good strategy if you plan on winning with creatures...
Burn won't be an issue with 2 finks and 2 jitte and a fast clock.
And the merfolk matchup is somewhere at 70-30.
Dropping finks just makes no sense.

2) Rofellos without anger is bad. Like really bad.
Does nothing on it's own and does not support the aggressive element of the deck. Also the deck's got not that a high curve, so the 4 hierarch should be enough for ramping.
(Also of course helping the exalted theme)

I
am looking forward to reading how does the Kotr+Wasteland tech work during playtesting. While it looks very tempting, Survival builds are well known for being mana hungry and not very keen on sacrificing their own lands.
I don't think you'll use KotR-Waste that often, just when the opponent is low on mana, or just has one source of a color you don't want him to have.
KotR is in here to be the big beater. That he synergizes with Wasteland is a bonus.
Also deck's got no mana issues like earlier takes on survival, just because the curve is low and you play the hierarchs.
In my testings there were'nt any issues concerning the mana base.

morgan_coke
01-13-2010, 02:21 PM
2 questions.

1) with 7 fetches, 4 kotr, and survival for shuffle effects, have you considered SDT as a source of library manipulation? Seems like it would be good here as a way to find survival and other effects over e. tutor.

2) slots are tight, but does that really justify not running a single genesis since volrath's stronghold is also absent? Is it worth it to rework the manabase to include a stronghold and a black dual (both findable with kotrs) or the creature base to slip in a single genesis? It seems like the slight decrease in consistency would be more than made up for by the massively increased long game this would give you.

Bonus thing I just thought of - have you looked at Reveillark for this deck? At a glance it gets back teeg, pridemage, kotr, witness, hierarch, mother, and retainers. I don't know how good it would be with its 5cc, but it seems like it at least has potential.

Wargoos
01-13-2010, 02:27 PM
2) slots are tight, but does that really justify not running a single genesis since volrath's stronghold is also absent? Is it worth it to rework the manabase to include a stronghold and a black dual (both findable with kotrs) or the creature base to slip in a single genesis? It seems like the slight decrease in consistency would be more than made up for by the massively increased long game this would give you.

Bonus thing I just thought of - have you looked at Reveillark for this deck? At a glance it gets back teeg, pridemage, kotr, witness, hierarch, mother, and retainers. I don't know how good it would be with its 5cc, but it seems like it at least has potential.

I can just guess but here are my toughts on your questions:

The slots are indeed very tight. As I tried to put in more kitchen finks I couldn't decide what to cut. Everything seemed right.
Genesis is unfortunately not agressive enough to get a md spot - also Genesis is mainly used to fight control decks. Gaddock Teeg does this at least as good - which leads me to believe that genesis is not needed md - but could be a viable sb choice when control starts to rise again.

Reveillark looks like a good gimmick but does this deck really need it?
I would say no. Especially when you think that it costs 2 more than witness and does less.

Also- Volraths Stronghold is nice, but it isn't worth the splash since you can always run genesis without mutilating the manabase.

Valdez
01-13-2010, 02:43 PM
Enlightend Tutor:
Generates virtual sb slots.
Iona wins games = SotF wins games = ET wins games.

Has anyone concidered Tabernacle in the sb vs. Swarm-Aggro/Ichorid..?

Benie Bederios
01-14-2010, 05:42 AM
The slots are indeed very tight. As I tried to put in more kitchen finks I couldn't decide what to cut. Everything seemed right.
Genesis is unfortunately not agressive enough to get a md spot - also Genesis is mainly used to fight control decks. Gaddock Teeg does this at least as good - which leads me to believe that genesis is not needed md - but could be a viable sb choice when control starts to rise again.

How about no... Most controldecks( Landstill/MUC/ITF/Countertop) can easiliy play around Gaddock Teeg or just destroy it on the spot. Recurring threads with Genesis are a lot harder to beat...

- Benie

eq.firemind
01-14-2010, 06:10 AM
How about no... Most controldecks( Landstill/MUC/ITF/Countertop) can easiliy play around Gaddock Teeg or just destroy it on the spot. Recurring threads with Genesis are a lot harder to beat...

- Benie
1) Genesis needs Survival, Teeg doesn't
2) Genesis costs :g::g: to find and bury it and next upkeep + :2::g: to reccur a threat + mana to actualy play a threat. Teeg needs just :g::w:.
3) We play 4 Tarmogoyf and 4 Survival. If control player has Relic in sb, they will bring it in g2/g3. Teeg doesn't care about relic.
4) Teeg beats for 2 (or more 'cause of Exalted)

All in all, this is aggressive variant. Genesis is too slow for aggro plan.
Also, Iona+Retainers will cost you :2::g::g::w:.
Also, we run Mother of Runes.

Pneumatiker
01-14-2010, 06:41 AM
Wouldn't a singleton Gaea's Cradle fit in nicely here in favour of a forest or the Wooded Foothills? It could help feed the mana hungry Survival a lot. Or do you think you would run too short of sacrifices for the KotR respectively of white mana sources?

spirit of the wretch
01-14-2010, 06:44 AM
This deck seems like a fun alternative to the existing Bant Survival. I really do like the addition of Mother and ETutor, the first for beeing an incredible pain in the ass to deal with, the latter for getting Jitte and Survival. More bombs is good, I hear.
What I don't like:

The Oblivion Ring
Seems like a wasted slot to me. If you want to remove an Artifact/Enchantment getting Survival and going for Pridemage seems like the better plan, if you aren't in a hurry. If you are in a hurry, waiting for a turn to get the ORing online isn't optimal either. Pridemage seems like the better alternative
If you are using it as a creature removal, you mostly are pressed on time and again fetching it with ETutor seems rather week. Kitchen Finks does the job usually better.
Now I understand the appeal of the flexibility of the Ring, but fetching it with tutor seems kind of clunky. I think that slot is better spent on Pridemage/Finks dependend on the expected meta.

Gaddock Teeg
I think there are currently too many good decks against which this card does too little, mainly: Zoo, Tribal Aggro (Merfolk, Goblins, Elfes), Canadian Thresh, Loam,...
This card does really shine against combo but you need to get lucky to have it in your opening hand, still be alive to cast it and have to protect it from bouce. That's a lot to ask in my opinion.
Hardcore control.decs with EE/Ruins, Moat, Wrath, Humility,... don't see enough play (at least from my point of view) to warrant a dedicated hate-slot.
I'd move them to the side for some combination of Elspeth (smashes control just fine), Finks (all around solid creature) and Jitte (LOVE this card, although it's probably not necessary with the ETutors maindeck) as I consider these cards more flexible and powerful in an open metagame.
Jötun Grunts might be another choice to consider, escpecially if Loam remains a popular deck. They are solid beaters and are disruption against Zoo (as they are a real wall and disable Mancers and Goyfs), Ichorid, Tempo Thresh and Loam.

I'd also try to cramp a Genesis into the side (probably instead of a crypt) to combo with the Faeries for continous graveyard hate.

crow_mw
01-14-2010, 07:15 AM
Similar to Bant Survival, Genesis in this build is weaker than in other builds, especially the ones running black. Unless you have tons of mana (you usually don't) it is mostly used to recur your 1-of bullets, most noticeably - evokers (and other CIP effect creatures) and sac effect creatures. Both lists suggested here do not run evokers and run as many as 3 Pridemages main, so it is not that vital to recur artifact/enchantment destruction. The only thing, that you could possibly like to recur is lifegain from singleton Finks and rebirth effect from Witness. The former is mostly needed in matchups in which genesis is believed to be too slow and the latter (recurring swords) might be good, but is not enough to pull the weight. Also there are no therapies to blow your CIP guys when you want to recur them. Finally there is no Rofellos to fuel the mana hungry Genesis.

Still, even if Genesis is weaker here than in RockSur, I dislike not having him anyway. He allows you to keep playing threats after your Survival has been blown up (though noticeably - Iona combo makes this much less of an issue), gives you a backup plan if Squee has been RFGed and commits towards your inevitability.

---

I also wonder if the list wouldn't benefit from more Witnesses. Her 2/1 body is obviously even less impressive nowadays, than it was few years ago, but she addresses one of the major drawbacks I believe this deck has, as compared to builds with black or even red - lack of tutorable spot removal. She also gets back the lands which have been sacrificed for the sake of waste-kotr lock...

Tao
01-14-2010, 05:15 PM
Genesis: Like crow said without being able to regrow Shriekmaw and Fleshbag Marauder it is weaker than in Black builds. I would like to play it, but a look at the DtB Forum forbids it. It is really bad (not even solid or mediocre) vs. Zoo, Merfolk, Goblins, Tempo Thresh and ANT. Against Countertop it is only okay if you resolve Survival which is not very likely. The only matchup where I want it is Landstill but one matchup does not justify its inclusion.

But "one Genesis in the SB" might be a decent idea. Comboing with Faerie Macabre is great against Ichorid and Loam. And control decks will board in yard hate anyway, so if they spend it on Squee you still have another engine.

Top vs. E. Tutor vs. Sylvan Library (vs. Mirri's Guile): This is so close, I really can't say much except stating the obvious:

- Tutor guarantees a quick Survival and gives you the most flexibility and it also makes the SB so much better by finding Crypts and Canonist; on the other hand it is a one-shot and the card disadvantage is a real problem against every deck using blue (which as we know are a lot)
- Top fits the curve best, it increases your T1 plays from 8 to 10 which is great and it provides long-term card quality; on the other hand spending mana every turn can be a problem
- Library is the best card and in the test game I made with it I was frequently drawing 1 or 2 cards with it; on the down side it doesn't curve; the 2 Mana slot is already full and it makes the deck very vulnerable to Explosives.

I am currently not sure which is the best option.

Gaddock Teeg: While it is true that I frequently side the card out, his strength in certain matchups justifies his inclusion imo. Against every blue deck, even Tempo Thresh, he is a solid T2 play because he prevents them from casting them FoW on your third turn or forces them to use a Removal on him. You don't have much disruption anyway and Teeg fills that hole, especially in comination with MoR. Also note that beneath FoW, Combo and Landstill stuff (Explosives, Humility, Wrath) he also prevents Natural Order, Dread Return, Chalice on 2, Smokestack and Geddon. But I guess in a very Zoo- and Tribal-heavy metagame you might want to go down to 1 Teeg MD for 2 more Finks or one more Finks and 1 more Witness.


Mother of Runes /KotR count: Should imo be 4 and no other number. Mother gives you a much needed T1 play beneath Hierarch, and one that is very decent. When I have to choose between playing MoR and Hierarch on T1 I will often choose MoR, especially if the hand is threat light. And even though Finks aregood, KotR is just the better card in the deck so if you want more Finks you have to cut something else.

Progenitus/NO Sideboard: I don't think this is good. Against Combo it does nothing and against Control it meddles with Teeg and you also don't want it to get countered. Furthermore without Enlightened Tutor you have to increase the number of hate cards in every matchup (2 Crypts won't be enough anymore) so there is no room for 5 cards.

Oblivion Ring: If you run E. Tutor I see no reason to not run 1 Ring. It is solid against every deck and can save you against Humility.

Reveillark, Gaea's Cradle: Edit wrong rules statement.
Cradle is not needed as a Tutor target for KotR. With KotR in play you already have 4 Mana and the deck does not need more.


Unfortunately I can't test that much and can't put up any detailed matchup results. I played quite a lot on MWS and against the few good players there it felt good. Except for Combo and to some degree Loam I feel confident with every matchup.

spirit of the wretch
01-14-2010, 05:43 PM
Gaddock Teeg: While it is true that I frequently side the card out, his strength in certain matchups justifies his inclusion imo. Against every blue deck, even Tempo Thresh, he is a solid T2 play because he prevents them from casting them FoW on your third turn or forces them to use a Removal on him. You don't have much disruption anyway and Teeg fills that hole, especially in comination with MoR. Also note that beneath FoW, Combo and Landstill stuff (Explosives, Humility, Wrath) he also prevents Natural Order, Dread Return, Chalice on 2, Smokestack and Geddon. But I guess in a very Zoo- and Tribal-heavy metagame you might want to go down to 1 Teeg MD for 2 more Finks or one more Finks and 1 more Witness.


I still don't think Teeg is the best disruption piece out there. I thought about this over the course of the day and I think I'd like to see Grunts in his place. I'll start with a little exemple:
Your opponent goes Hierarch go, you have a of Hierarch of your own, your opponentplays Pridemage/Goyf and it's your turn. Now, if you have the Teeg in hand you have to consider dropping him, or a Goyf/Cat/KotR. If your opponent does play NO and has it in hand right now and can't couter the Teeg, the little guy is king! If your opponent doesn't play it though, but follows up with another beater/a CB you wasted a complete turn to summon a creature, that isn't going to effect the game a lot.
Bottom line: Teeg is really good, if you KNOW what you're playing. Hence I see him in the sideboard, after you have the information.
I think my biggest issue with him is, that he isn't a real thread. Grunts on the onther hand, while not shutting down Force, usually outmatch every single creature a blue deck plays (except the Hydra und stupid battleships, that is of course...) once they can attack or a turn later.
Granted, they are a lousy turn 2 play (except against Ichorid), but they are pretty disruptive against Zoo, Tempo Thresh, Loam and tribal decks (due to their size) and I think these are more played, than Stax, Chalice Aggro and Landstill.
I'd only play the Teeg main, if I expected a heavy NO/Combo meta, but then again, this deck arguably isn't the best choice in that meta.

Tacosnape
01-14-2010, 05:58 PM
Except that Jotun Grunts are a horrible terrible card and even worse in this deck. They do nothing when they're dropped, so they're poor Survival targets. They eat land and cards necessary to fuel both Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary. They make Witness worse. And they go away on their own, which is card disadvantage for you. Also, they're terrible at being graveyard managers. Dredge rolls right over the top of them, and Loam hides its Loams with well-timed cycling lands when your triggers are on the stack.

Oh, and also, if I haven't mentioned it before? Every single list of every single deck in Legacy that has a Jotun Grunt in it, anywhere in the 75, is suboptimal. Because he's that terrible.

arebennian
01-15-2010, 01:41 AM
Reveillark, Gaea's Cradle: Reveillark does not work with KotR (his power in yard is like Goyf already altered) , so it won't be that good. Cradle is not needed as a Tutor target for KotR. With KotR in play you already have 4 Mana and the deck does not need more.


I believe this is false. My understanding is that it does work with Lark.
Any rules lawyer wish to explain why/why not this works, without derailing the thread...

eq.firemind
01-15-2010, 02:11 AM
Yeah, Lark works on KotR 'cause her static ability works only in play. In any other zone her P/T is the one written on the card i.e. 2/2.


More about Teeg:
This deck can beat fast and runs Wastelands, wich means it at least some tools to not suck to Storm. Now include 3 Teeg in MD. You'll still have unfavorable mu preboard, but you can improve it to at least even in g2/g3 without dedicating too much SB space to it. If your meta is Storm-infested, you should probably choose another deck. But if you have some Storm players, it's good to have descent chaces against them instead of just autoscoop.
Also, NO=>Prog, Humility and Elspeth are really hard to answer. Teeg helps here too.

To sum up: Teeg helps greatly in our bad matches/against bad cards, is not-useless to descent in many other matches and even if he is useless, you can Survival him into something else. Looks like MD choice for me.

spirit of the wretch
01-15-2010, 04:56 AM
Except that Jotun Grunts are a horrible terrible card and even worse in this deck. They do nothing when they're dropped, so they're poor Survival targets. They eat land and cards necessary to fuel both Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary. They make Witness worse. And they go away on their own, which is card disadvantage for you. Also, they're terrible at being graveyard managers. Dredge rolls right over the top of them, and Loam hides its Loams with well-timed cycling lands when your triggers are on the stack.

:confused: Wow, where did that come from?
But let's continue the nerd rage:
1.) I don't think they don't do anything the turn they are dropped, that is my main argument pro Grunt. They are big! Big is good. They can deliver solid beats and are a reasonable defense creature. Which is a good thing against faster and slower decks.
2.) When you are the only player with Goyfs you can use the Grunts to not shrink them, otherwise you use them to downsize your opponents Goyfs. That seems like a good deal to me. Grunt + KotR = infinite Wastelands. Ok, you have a point about the Witness.
3.) They go away on their own, which is carddisagvantage... well if they held off attackers for one turn and beat in for 8 damage, I'd consider that a pretty worthy investment for 1W.
4.) Dredge rolls right over them: That's not even an argument. By that reason one should play Burreton-Forge Tender or Wheel of Sun and Moon in that slot. And it still won't help, because "Dredge rolls right over the top of them". Fact is, Grunts can combat Dredge effectively IF they don't have the nuts. If they do, you're screwed anyway.
5.) Loam hides Loam. Well the point is, they can either hide Loam OR hide their utility lands (Wasteland, Cyclers, Fetches) not both. Removing either one is a pretty good blow to their strategy, because it needs both parts to work.

But of course

Oh, and also, if I haven't mentioned it before? Every single list of every single deck in Legacy that has a Jotun Grunt in it, anywhere in the 75, is suboptimal. Because he's that terrible.
pretty much convinced my and I bow my ignoble head before your supreme knowledge. You truly are worth listening to.

eq.firemind
01-15-2010, 06:12 AM
The thing I learned about Grunt while playing DnT:
His cumul upkeep makes him unreliable in anything you want him to do.
It is the opponent's strategy that can make him more reliable. The same can be said about Teeg, but a) when his effect is irrevelant, he don't just die b) IMHO Teeg answers to wider arrange of realy bad things than Grunt in this particular deck.
Grunt is reliable (thus good enough) against AggroLoam and TempoThresh.
Grunt is not very good against dredge even if they don't have nutz. Helps? Definitely. Good? No.
Grunt+KotR =/= infinite Wastelands. The limit is Forest and Plains in you have in play and Survival deck wants many lands.
Mono-w DnT just have no options but Grunt. This deck has.

spirit of the wretch
01-15-2010, 06:32 AM
The thing I learned about Grunt while playing DnT:
His cumul upkeep makes him unreliable in anything you want him to do.

Fair point.



It is the opponent's strategy that can make him more reliable. The same can be said about Teeg, but a) when his effect is irrevelant, he don't just die b) IMHO Teeg answers to far more bad things than Grunt in this particular deck.


Here's where our opinions obviously differ. I don't think that blocking a Force is worth a creature slot. Not if the body is 2/2. I do agree, that blocking Chalice, NO, Armageddon, Elspeth and EE is worth a creature slot, but the last tournaments I've played, I've seen a ton of Zoo, Merfolk, Tempo Thresh and Loam. I've also seen a fair share of ANT, but then again, I don't think Teeg maindeck helps you enough here to have a halfway equal fight.
Therefore, I'd pick a solid choice against commonly played decks over a stellar choice against rare decks for my maindeck slot. Maybe that's only my local metagame, but in my opinion Zoo, Merfolk, Loam and Tempo Thresh are far more common than decks with Chalice, Armageddon, Elspeth or NO.
My point is that Teeg answers the obvious bad things: Resolved NO means trouble, no questions asked. So does Eslpeth. But having a mere 2/2 creature opens you up to more subtle bad things: Nacatl, Kird Ape, Rhox War Monk, FoD, 2/3 Fish Lords, Mongoos, ... I'm not even talking about Wastelock or Bridge from Below but rather your weakend matchup against aggressive decks.

eq.firemind
01-15-2010, 06:46 AM
Here's where our opinions obviously differ. I don't think that blocking a Force is worth a creature slot. Not if the body is 2/2. I do agree, that blocking Chalice, NO, Armageddon, Elspeth and EE is worth a creature slot, but the last tournaments I've played, I've seen a ton of Zoo, Merfolk, Tempo Thresh and Loam.
Therefore, I'd pick a solid choice against commonly played decks over a stellar choice against rare decks for my maindeck slot. Maybe that's only my local metagame, but in my opinion Zoo, Merfolk, Loam and Tempo Thresh are far more common than decks with Chalice, Armageddon, Elspeth or NO.
My point is that Teeg answers the obvious bad things: Resolved NO means trouble, no questions asked. So does Eslpeth. But having a mere 2/2 creature opens you up to more subtle bad things: Nacatl, Kird Ape, Rhox War Monk, FoD, 2/3 Fish Lords, Mongoos, ... I'm not even talking about Wastelock or Bridge from Below but rather your weakend matchup against aggressive decks.
So I guess we could agree that the choice is defined by metagame, but:

I've also seen a fair share of ANT, but then again, I don't think Teeg maindeck helps you enough here to have a halfway equal fight.
I don't agree, and that's why:

This deck can beat fast and runs Wastelands, wich means it at least some tools to not suck to Storm. Now include 3 Teeg in MD. You'll still have unfavorable mu preboard, but you can improve it to at least even in g2/g3 without dedicating too much SB space to it. If your meta is Storm-infested, you should probably choose another deck. But if you have some Storm players, it's good to have descent chaces against them instead of just autoscoop.
Also, Teeg helps a bit against the new Dream Halls deck.

MattH
01-15-2010, 10:23 AM
Quick rules clarification. From http://www.wizards.com/magic/comprules/MagicCompRules_20091005.txt :


207.2a The card may have a characteristic-defining ability that sets its power and/or toughness according to some stated condition. (See rule 604.3.) Such an ability is worded "[This creature's] [power or toughness] is equal to . . ." or "[This creature's] power and toughness are each equal to . . ." This ability functions everywhere, even outside the game. If the ability needs to use a number that can't be determined, use 0 instead of that number.

This is the relevant rule for why Tarmogoyf is large in all game zones. Knight isn't worded like Tarmogoyf, so its ability does not apply when in a non-battlefield zone. eq.firemind is correct, and Knight does work with Reveillark.

spirit of the wretch
01-15-2010, 01:58 PM
I don't agree, and that's why:

You'll still have unfavorable mu preboard, but you can improve it to at least even in g2/g3 without dedicating too much SB space to it.
Also, Teeg helps a bit against the new Dream Halls deck.

Point is, you most likely have to dedicate the SB slots to aggro hate, because you definately want to board out the Teegs in that MU. So you don't really safe any SB space, as you wouldn't have to play the anti aggro cards with Grunt maindeck.
Also, if you say the deck beats fast, what is the best possible goldfish for this deck? Turn 4/5 probably? That's not really a clock against combo.

Tacosnape
01-15-2010, 02:48 PM
Fine. I'll put more effort into a point I've already argued a hundred times on here.


I don't think they don't do anything the turn they are dropped, that is my main argument pro Grunt. They are big! Big is good. They can deliver solid beats and are a reasonable defense creature. Which is a good thing against faster and slower decks.

4/4 isn't all that big. They're a terrible defense creature, because your opponent can continue what he's doing and your Grunt eventually goes away. They're a terrible offense creature because Grunt -never- goes the distance on his own.

Know why people don't play cards like Book Burning, Skullscorch, etc? Because any card that gives the opponent the final choice has an immense drawback. You don't see it immediately, but Jotun Grunt is the same thing.
You're giving your opponent final choices. Jotun Grunt -will- die. Your opponent simply gets to pick the most beneficial way for him for it to happen. He can spend removal on it. He can chump block it. He can let it hit him a few times and spend his removal on other threats.

With most other threats, this isn't true. Other threats stay around until they're dealt with somehow. GW Survival doesn't have the reach to support Grunt, and Grunt hurts IT more than it hurts most other decks in the format.


2.) When you are the only player with Goyfs you can use the Grunts to not shrink them, otherwise you use them to downsize your opponents Goyfs. That seems like a good deal to me. Grunt + KotR = infinite Wastelands. Ok, you have a point about the Witness.

You're assuming Tarmogoyf and Jotun Grunt are a split card. Survivals or not, you don't have complete control over when they're in your hand. Grunts shrink your Goyfs, whether your Goyfs are in play yet or not. When/If you draw one, they'll be shrunk.

Grunt + KOTR doesn't equal infinite Wastelands. Grunt's counters keep going up, and eventually it will go away. For the record, Loaming Shaman would do equally well at putting a Wasteland back if you needed, as well as being better against Dredge.



3.) They go away on their own, which is carddisagvantage... well if they held off attackers for one turn and beat in for 8 damage, I'd consider that a pretty worthy investment for 1W.

1W and a card. Here's where we differ. I consider that a terrible investment on its own. Even if you were guaranteed that. And you're not. Your opponent can remove it if it's beneficial for him to do so. Plus, it's yet another thing that gets absolutely crushed by one of the format's best graveyard hate cards, Relic of Progenitus.

It's especially bad in a deck that isn't backed up by any burn, and especially in a deck where that 8 damage is going to weaken 13+ other cards in the deck (Goyfs, Witnesses, KOTR, and other Grunts).


4.) Dredge rolls right over them: That's not even an argument. By that reason one should play Burreton-Forge Tender or Wheel of Sun and Moon in that slot. And it still won't help, because "Dredge rolls right over the top of them". Fact is, Grunts can combat Dredge effectively IF they don't have the nuts. If they do, you're screwed anyway.

The difference is in how close to the nuts Dredge has to be. I've lost to Dredge with two Tormod's Crypts and an Extirpate in my opening hand on the play. But to beat me, Dredge had to do this: Unmask the Extirpate, Needle the Crypts, and then play an Imp and a Breakthrough on the next turn. It takes a lot less for Dredge to play around a Jotun Grunt. Dredge's godhands aren't a black and white thing. The more hate you have, and the better the hate, the better your chance at surviving, and the less of their hands go the distance.


5.) Loam hides Loam. Well the point is, they can either hide Loam OR hide their utility lands (Wasteland, Cyclers, Fetches) not both. Removing either one is a pretty good blow to their strategy, because it needs both parts to work.

Except that every Loam returns three lands to their hand. So they can easily hide multiple lands and a Loam all in their hand.

While the rest of this is true, Grunt does it no better than something that can hit all of the yard at once, such as Loaming Shaman.

venice
01-16-2010, 03:57 PM
Hey Guys!

I have been playing the Bant Survival.dec for a while now and made a quite decent 6-1-2 finish at the Germagic 1 in Hanau with it only missing Top8 by an unlucky loss in the last round.
I found the Iona+Loyal Retainers combo to be really strong but didnīt like the fact that the deck has a pretty week matchup against Merfolk which is quite rampant at the moment.
So reading this thread yesterday really caught my interest since with the absence of islands and the addition of big guys like KotR the Merfolk problem seemed to vanish without sacrificing the strength of the Iona combo. And since StormCombo is one of Bant Survivalīs weaker MatchUps, I wasnīt too worried about the absence of countermagic either.

Anyway, after reading this thread yesterday I decided to take the G/W Survival list to a local tournament today. I did some minor tweaks to the original list though, so here is what I played today:

// Mana
4 [u] Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [7E] Forest
1 [MI] Plains
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FNM] Mother of Runes
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
1 [FD] Eternal Witness

1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers

Removal and Engine
4 [u] Swords to Plowshares
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
2 [LG] Sylvan Library
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [JDM] Genesis
SB: 1 [PRO] Spore Frog
SB: 1 [WL] Gaeaīs Blessing (I added this a few minutes before the tournament because I noticed some guys of which I knew theyīd play Painter.dec and the Blessing buys quite some time if they donīt expect it^^)

So the main difference compared to Taoīs list is the lack of Teegs in the mainboard in exchange for more Kitchen Finks and Elspeth. Just like Stefan aka Spirit of the Wretch already stated, the Legacy Meta is full of Zoo, Merfolk, Tempo Thresh and Loam at the moment and Teeg really doesnīt shine in these matches. Thus I put him in the side as a 4-of to still have him available if needed and put in more Finks (golden vs. Zoo, Tempo Thresh and Merfolk) and two Elspeth which I wanted to be there in the Loam matches at first, but which is also a true bomb on its own against many other decks.
I also cutted the Enlightened Tutor for Sylvan Library since that card is really amazing in my opinion and exactly what the deck wants and needs - and with Jitte online the latter getīs itīs fourth ability: Remove two counter from Umezawaīs Jitte: draw a card! :wink: But on a serious note: I really like the library since I know its power from different Zoo builds and I think it fits the deck very well. The second Jitte came in because I really just love that card and wanted a second copy of the shiny equipment by any means!
Genesis + Spore Frog in the side are against opposing Ionas - to have an out if Iona says "white", Tribal Aggro and Progenitus; of course Genesis is a house by itsself against control decks. I think the rest is quite self explanatory...

So, on to the report: we were about 20 players which resulted in five straight rounds of swiss without playing out the Top8.

1st Round: I donīt remeber his name but he played a Show and Tell deck.

G1: I win the dice roll and lead with Mother of Runes. He plays Island and passes. I already have Survival in hand but donīt play it yet to avoid running into possible Daze since I donīt know what heīs playing at that time, so I play Hierarch and attack with Mother. He plays EOT Brainstorm then untaps and plays land, Petal, Show and Tell!!! Ok, didnīt expect that.... So we both choose a card and put it into play. I choose Survival of course and look over to his side of the table just to see an Iona flipping over... :rolleyes: Great! I think to myself... Luckily, he names green instead of white (donīt ask me why...:confused: ) so I am able to try to sword his angel which gets forced. I have to take a swing by his Iona but am able to bring my own angel into play the following turn via Survival. He does not seem very amused but obviously canīt do anything about it. So I continue the Survival-Action to get Witness, which gets back Retainers into Iona on blue. He scoops to that. Puh! That was close. Lucky me that he didnīt name white...:smile:

1-0

G2: He leads off with Island, Relic. I play Hierarch and pass. He plays Ponder, go. I play land Survival which gets forced. He proceeds to Ponder during his turn but does not do anything else. Meanwhile I drop a Jitte and a Mother of Runes during my turn. He plays more Brainstorm and even a third Ponder in his turn but gets a little angry since he still doesnīt seem to find what heīs looking for. I attack with eqipped Hierach on my turn and pass. We then draw go for two turns with me continuing to establish more and more counters on the shiny equipment. When I already have 6 counters on Jitte he plays Show and Tell and puts a Sphinx of the Steel Wind into play (I canīt remember what I chose to put into play, but I wasnīt anything relevant I guess) So meanwhile he got to 13 life while I had a Mother and two Hierarchs with ongoing Jitte action into play. So I just untap, swing with the equipped Hierarch giving her protection white and remove the six counter to finish him off.

2-0

Matches:

1-0

2nd Round: Oliver Stahl with Aggro Loam

Oliver is a nice guy and I played against him at several tournaments before so I already figure what heīs playing.

G1: He wins the dice roll but I honestly canīt remember much of the game, I just know that it involved a Goyf, two KotR and some Loam-Action on his side and a Mother two Kitchen Finks, 4 basic lands (heard they are good against Loam...:tongue: ) and a game breaking Elspeth on mine. I also had an early Sylvan Library and still remember that I grabbed all three cards when it triggered first (so I guess I drew some pretty good stuff that turn).

1-0

G2: He mulled to 5 but still got a pretty decent start with Mox, land, Confidant. Unfortunately for him, I had the sword. But he proceeds to draw well, since he ripps a Burning Wish into Loam from the top so the game isnīt over at all for him. The game ended with me having 3(!) Knight of the Reliquary in play (he really didnīt expect these) which kept him quite mana short on his last turn with only the mox remaining in play... :wink: and me attacking for about 30..... (he probably had some creatures out before, but I canīt remember exactly)

2-0

Matches:

2-0

Round 3: Sven Stolz with Zoo

Sven 8ed at the German Magic 1 and I know he plays his Zoo deck.

G1: He wins the dice roll and leads with land(no fetch), Lava Mancer. I play Savannah, Mother. He drops another land (still no fetch, so his Mancer isnīt active yet) plays Pridemage and attacks. I drop another Savannah, sword his Cat (since I have Survival in hand) and drop a Hierarch. I canīt remember what he did then - I just know that I installed the combo two turns later, while having played a Finks before to stall him and he scoops since heīs nearly out of gas and survival for more finks. GG

1-0

G2: He leads with Taiga Nacatl. I play Hierarch which gets bolted, but he doesnīt drop another land so I only take two by his attacking cat. I then proceec to play a Goyf to buy some time. He plays a Mancer and still didnīt find another land. So he canīt really do anything but pass the turn. Meanwhile I establish a tiny little Knight of the Reliquary to help him keep up his mana screw :tongue: Since he doesnīt find a land on his turn I pretty much seal the deal by tutoring up a wasteland followed by Jitte ftw. He drops two basic lands the following turns and can even path my knight but Goyf with Jitte and a follow up Kitchen Finks on my side is more he can handle.
After he saw a Wasteland on my side in game 1 he truely misplayed in keeping a risky one-lander. But I think with that line of play and the nice curve I layed he would probably have lost even if he had more lands in his earlier turns... anyway:

2-0

Matches:

3-0

Round 4: Friedrich playing Dragon Stompy

G1: He wins the dice roll and starts with Mox, Ancient Tomb into Morph. Luckily no disruption from his side. So I fetch a plains (I have a forest already in hand) and drop a Mother. He follows up with a second turn Rakdos Pit Dragon and somehow is able to attack with his unmorphed 5/5 Gathan Raiders... so he took the aggro route... Fair enough I rip a Hierach from the top, lay a forest play, Hierarch and sword his Dragon. I canīt quite remember, but I established the Iona combo soon after that and he scoops right to this.

1-0

G2: He leads with Chalice@1. And passes. I play land, go. He plays a morph on his turn. I play Sylvan Library. He plays a Pit Dragon (again those two guys..:rolleyes: ) and unmorphs the Raiders, drops a mox, imprints Simian Spirit Guide and attacks for five. I donīt get around the Chalice (having a Sword and a Mother in hand) and have to chump block his raiders with a 4/4 knight of the reliquary. I donīt draw anything relevant and thus lose the turn after.

1-1

G3: I keep a hand with: Forest, Wasteland, Hierarch, Goyf, Finks, Jitte and something else. Pretty good hand on the play, so I keep. He doenīt but mulls down to five (thatīs really the downside of those stompy list, some hands are broken and others..... well .... but thatīs another story) So back to topic, his Mulligan to five makes my hand even look better as already it and he doesnīt really get into the game at any point. Lucky me! :smile:

2-1

Matches:

4-0

Round 5: Jens Jäger playing Imperial Painter

I know Jens for several years know. Heīs a really nice guy and its always fun to play him. But since I am the only one with 12 points I offer him a draw and he accepts. We play it out for fun nevertheless and I win in two epic matches going to an undefeated record of 5-0 in Matches and 10-1 in Games overall.
"Officially" I am at 4-0-1 getting a Revised Tundra as 1st Pick which is a quite nice outcome for the invested 5€ entry fee I guess!

So all in all, I am very impressed by the decks consistency and strength. I had to take only one mulligan the whole day because of two few mana sources in my opening seven. Every MatchUp I play today felt really winnable, with Dragon Stompy being the only exeptance. Kitchen Finks was REALLY good all day, as was Jitte, Hierarch, and Knight of the Reliquary and Goyf and Survival and all other cards in the deck..... :laugh: I am really very satisfied with every single card in the maindeck right know. And probably would only change one or two sideboard slots as well.

So I really give props to you Tao for posting such an interesting new decklist. Thanks! It was really fun to play the deck today since it is so flexible. I will probably play the list tomorrow at our monthly "Haßloch-Tournament" and am quite curious about the result. I expect only few combo decks but a very mixed metagame full of zoo, loam, Merfolk and other Tribal, CounterTop, Dreastill and Tempo Thresh list. Thus, a relative good environment for the G/W list. Weīll see tomorrow. :wink:

Tao
01-16-2010, 10:10 PM
Grats to the good finish. I like your build, it emphasizes the strenghts and good matchups of the deck and weakens the weak one a bit more, that seems ok.

A few ideas to your decklist:

- 2 Krosan Grip seems not enough for me. Against the decks they come in (Staxx, Landstill, Countertop) you never have too much and they are always good because they also bring in Yard hate. 3-4 it should be.
- a 3rd Jitte in the SB is very useful against Zoo, Tribal and Ichorid.
- With 3 Finks, 2 Elspeths and a 2nd Jitte the curve increases slightly 21 lands was a bit tight anyway so I think that a 22nd land would be right. It also improves your great matchups Merfolk and Tempo Thresh further who basically only can win via Mana Denial.

Edit: I hate nights with less than 4 hours sleep^^

- I think Sylvan Library is not good enough. GW plays also as a Tempo deck and Library counteracts this a bit. And Unlike Zoo this deck has no Burn spells to draw off it to finish the opponent of. And with 4 Survival, 2 Jitte and 2 Elspeth MD the deck imo has enough "punch" to go into the midgame.

I would suggest following changes to your list:

MD:
- 2 Sylvan Library
- 1 Kitchen Finks
+ 1 Horizon Canopy
+ 1 Qasali Pridemage
and reduce to 60 cards

SB:
+ 1 Kitchen Finks
+ 1 Umezawa's Jitte (3rd Jitte is great against Tribal, Zoo and Ichorid)
+ 1 Krosan Grip
- 1 Genesis
- 1 Spore Frog
- 1 Gaea's Blessing

slayjay
01-17-2010, 09:59 AM
gratz from me again, christopher, after the tournament yeasterday I searched the list and build it for my own. the deck seems very strong and I will continue testing it...it is fun to play too, but at the moment I am unable to find a loyal retainers....even on ebay.vom...in germany is an english one, but for 160 eur...this is crazy shit!

ah, btw, your opponent in the first round was sebastian ehmke, a friend of mine, who played is second legacy tournament ever...I thik that is why his iona said "green"

and yea, our games are always funny ;-)

I hope you will continue the succes today in hassloch!

greetz

jens

Snief
01-17-2010, 03:36 PM
So, after playing at a 61 player tournament today and finishing 4th place with this deck, I`ll report my experiences and my absolutely surprising finish:

I usually test with Christopher ("venice") and after his strong finish yesterday he convinced me to play GW Survival instead of the Bant variant of the deck. I had to change some cards because of my playstyle (read: availability of cards), Christopherīs experience yesterday and the expected meta in Hassloch. My decklist looked like this:

3 Wasteland
3 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas (obv against Iona at the wrong side of the table)

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Squee
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Eternal Witness

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawaīs Jitte

SB:
1 Genesis
1 Spore Frog
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 True Believer
3 Tormodīs Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
1 Harmonic Sliver (to support Pridemage against Needle)
1 Faerie Macabre

So, 6 Rounds had to be played....and my first opponent is Fabian with ITF:

Game1 he mulligans to 5 and I start to beat him with Pridemage, Hierarch and 2 Mother. He never finds a solution and I win short after. (I board nothing.)
Game2 he starts with Tropical, go. I start with Land, Hierarch. I install a board of 2 Hierarchs and 3 Mother of Runes because everything relevant is countered on my side. Nonetheless, I win because I have StoP for Tombstalker and he only has green creatures left :)

1-0

Round 2: Johannes with Countertop

Game1 I have a pretty sick hand with Iona in play round 3. He scoops and everything I saw is a Tundra, a Savannah and a Top so I set him on Bant Survival (and obv board wrong)...
..Game2 he shows me Top first turn, Balance second turn ond double Swords for my Critters. Oh, and Spellstutter Sprite (:confused: ?). I scoop short after. (So I board again: - 2 Jitte -2 Elspeth + Genesis + Harmonic Sliver +2 Grips)
Game3 I start with Land, Mother. He sighs. In this game I draw all my Wastelands (which he didnīt see before) and screw him pretty hard. I win with Iona in play with 1 Tropical on his side.

2-0

Round 3: Michael with Zoo

Game1 has the god draw: Lynx, Fetch, Lynx, Nacatl, Fetch, Burn, Burn, Fetchland.....I lose. ( Board: -2 Elspeth +Genesis +Spore Frog)
Game2 I lose due to the fact I draw no third land! I have Spore Frog lock ready (no third mana for recurring) and both Iona and Retainers in Hand. What should I say? I lose.

2-1

Round 4: Johannes with Zoo

Game1 I start with Mother, then Wasteland and Sword for both his single Land and his 1/1 Nacatl. He draws his second land in Round 4 and never has a chance to win.
Game2 I lose to mana screw, because he has double Wasteland which I wasnīt expecting at all. Also, he plays Sylvan Library which fills his hand with gas and my life points vanish.
Game3 I show him Iona turn 3 (after explaining my chinese Retainers) and I win 2 Rounds later at 19 life.

3-1

Round 5: Maximilian with Zoo:

Game1 I win with Iona on white. But I need like 4 turns to attack the first time because he stalls the board with his green-intense draw,4 Nacatls and 3 Goyfs! (Multiple Kitchen Finks are that good.) I board - 2 Elspeth -Pridemage +Genesis +Spore Frog + True Believer, like the games against Zoo before.
Game2 ends in time out. I install pretty fast Iona at red (thatīs the BIG mistake, because he obv has the Path to Exile), because I have a Mother in hand. So Plan B, I install Spore Frog lock. He could have won the game with his Lavamancer because iīm at 7, but thank god Iīm not the only one who makes mistakes and he empties the board with a volcanic fallout. He has nothing to win in time.

4-1

Standings are telling me that I have to play to be safe in the Top8, so I face my last opponent:

Jonas with TempoTresh:

Game1 I play threat after threat so his hand is empty pretty fast. I get a survival online and am able to sneak a Iona in play. Naming blue ( after he tries to trashtalk me to set it on green). He scoops at 18 life.
Game2 I only have a Mother on board and have to scoop to triple Mongoose after he forced my Goyf, my Finks and my Survival.
Game3 he mulligans to 4. But I think this matchup is absolutely in our favour, so I would have won anyway.

So, final result is 5-1 and 4th out of 61 players. I pick 2 Polluted Deltas. What would i change after playing this deck the whole day?

Main:
- Karakas, + basic land
-2 Elspeth: I boarded them out all day. As a very nice card, Elspeth is just too slow for this deck:
+Genesis: I boarded in this guy every match, so...
+Kitchen Finks: These are just too good to be not a 4-of. Obv I played vs a lot Aggro today, but even against other decks I wouldnīt mind to have a fourth one.

(- 2 Sylvan Library: These shine in some matchups, on the other side itīs often a dead card or win more. I first have to test the deck a litttle more to be sure.
With 2 Slots more you could play:
+ 1 Teeg: Very good preboard against some decks, you would have the possibility to tutor him. Only one because the other 2 are clearly SB slots and it would be too often a dead card.
+ 1 Jitte: I donīt have to explain haow good this one is.
or
+1 Secret Tech: Iīm sure there is much potential in this deck to be found.)

I am very convinced of my SB, so no changes here so far, I think. Notice: Spore Frog is an absolutely must play!

Christopher played 4-2 today and Iīm sure he has his own report online shortly.

venice
01-17-2010, 03:43 PM
ah, btw, your opponent in the first round was sebastian ehmke, a friend of mine, who played is second legacy tournament ever...I thik that is why his iona said "green"


Well, that explains it indeed! :smile:

Thanks for the feedback and grats! I can only repeat myself in stating how much fun it is to play the deck and how strong the deck is.

I just came back from the tournament and played the same MD list as yesterday with some minor changes in the SB.
I played it to a 4-2 result today with one VERY unlucky loss against Rock.dec where I established the Iona lock in game 3 naming white (since I knew he plays Sword+Vindicate), I also know he plays Innocent Blood but I still have a Hierarch in play... so everything seems fine until he untaps drops Engineered Plague naming human - thus killing Hierarch - then plays Innocent Blood to get rid of Iona. The game then proceeds and I drop Kitchen Finks while he establishes Goyf+Grunt on his side. Since Iīm already on ten or so I have to chump block with Finks. He then proceeds to drop another Plague naming Ouphe!! Meanwhile I had drawn into another Survival and was kind of relieved as I still had the Spore Frog loop in my deck to stop his beats. So I search up Frog+Genesis and guess whatīs his next play!?.... Yeah right, his third Plague naming "Frog".... :rolleyes: Ok, that game was so random.... I was really frustrated afterwards.... I mean Plague!? WTF! But in this case it was obv good for him he brought them in....
Well the other loss was against ANT and that although I established 1st turn Mother 2nd turn Teeg in game two.... he just had double bounce and comboed me out with IGG.... despite me being able to remove two of his graveyard cards in response via Faerie Macabre.... he had an absolute sick draw against that configuration of mine.... but well that happens I guess....
My wins were against Loam, CB-Top, Faerie.dec (with Tombstalker, Firespout, Bitterblossom and Terminate,guess you know which list I mean) and Tempo Thresh.
After my success with the list yesterday a friend of mine wanted to play the deck aswell for today so we played nearly the same 75 cards. He however made it to a very decent 4th place playing the deck to 5-1 record!! I think heīll write a report himself so I wonīt add anything to that here. [Edit: ok he already did at the sime time as I am posting this... so just go ahead and read...^^]

A few things we discussed throughout the tournament so far:

Both of us sideboarded Genesis EVERY single match, so did I yesterday. The card definetly deserves a MD slot. Same goes for Kitchen Finks No.4 that card is just sooo good. I will probably go and cut the 2 Elspeth for those two. And would also want the Spore Frog maindeck as well as one copy of Gaddock Teeg to survival him if needed.
I agree to your statement about Krosan Grip, Tao. I played a third one today and would never want to go below that number because its so flexible and strong.
I really am convinced by Spore Frog though and would never play without him. I donīt understand why you would want to play without him. A third Jitte is much weaker compared to the flexibility Spore Frog offers. Your argument that Jitte is strong vs. Tribal, Dredge and Zoo doesnīt stand the direct comparison with the Frog. Frog is a house against Dredge by itsself!! I mean you can sac him for free removing bridges AND prevent a full swing of his - and that available one turn one. Compared to that you could possibly be dead already against Dredge before Jitte gets even online..... Of course Jitte is also good vs. Dredge IF you get the time to activate it. But in that matchup the first goal is to make it that far, thus every early disruption is needed - not to speak from the "FrogLoop" in lategames. Same goes I think for Tribal decks. The only exeptance may be Zoo because here Jitteīs 3rd ability to gain life also shines vs. their burn spells. Nevertheless I would wnat the Frog here, too- be it to buy time or to cut them from their combat damgage route totaly. Plus Frog combined with Mother is really sick! They canīt even burn it eot to get a possible swing! I personally like the card a lot and thus would even want to find a maindeck slot. Maybe I will even go and cut the Sylvan Librarys for one Teeg+Frog main. But this is uo to more testing with the deck since I really didnīt play the Library too often.... although in games where I had it, it was really golden every single time.

conboy31
01-17-2010, 11:29 PM
I bought some Loyal Retainers and am going to bid or trade for some Mother of runes. Going over all of the decklists and tournament reports I was curious as to how strong wasteland is for this deck.

I love wasteland and pack them in a bunch of decks I use, however, looking at this WG deck I am curious as to how strong it is in practice.

A) No mana relevant spells (daze, spell pierce)
B) No recurring wasteland (loam, crucible)
C) No random tech (extirpate, etc)
D) No other LD (stifle, sinkhole, etc)

What caught my attention was that most lists were running 3, causing me to evaluate their overall impact. KotR can do some tricks with wasteland, that is true. My thoughts once I play the deck is that the two colors with minimal or no investment for double white allows the deck to simply use wasteland because doing so does not inhibit the overall consistency of getting both colors online and in sufficient quantities.

Edit - Completely missed the eternal witness. As I started pulling out the cards to build the deck she stared me right back in the face.

Tao
01-18-2010, 05:37 AM
@Venice/ Snief: Congratulations to the good finishes. I am glad someone picked the deck up and played it in a tournament because it is much stronger than it might look like on the first view. Overall only four losses in 17 games sounds certainly like a good performance.

First of all I want to mention one point regarding SBing. I side out the Iona/Retainer's combo against blue decks like Merfolk, Countertop or Canadian because it gets pretty tough postboard to get Survival online. They will wait with Snares and Forces for the Survival and also probably bring in Yard/Enchantment hate and double its effectivity if you draw Iona or Retainer's. So I try to keep Survival's "rat's tail" as short as possible in these games and would much rather keep Elspeth in than the Combo.

That said here are my thoughts to Spore Frog / Genesis:

Against aggressive decks Genesis itself is too slow, you are better off playing Goyfs and Finks via Squee and getting Iona as soon as you see an opening. Against Combo it is dead and against Staxx 3 Pridemages + 1 Witness should be enough to destroy all their relevants stuff. That leaves only control in which it matters.
Adding Spore Frog to Genesis in the main deck is great against Elves and Ichorid. With Reanimator and Progenitus decks there are two new decks against which Frog does also a good job. Against everything else the problem is that you spend 4 Mana / turn with the engine while they keep expanding their board forcing you to use the engine every turn. So unless you do counter damage to finish the game quickly Canadian, Countertop, Merfolk and Goblins will eventually find a solution and overwhelm you in one or two strikes (while against Zoo chaining Finks is certainly better for 4 Mana).

So imo Genesis deserves a spot only in either a heavy Landstill/ITF Meta or in combination with Frog if you know many people play Reanimator, Ichorid and / or Elves. SBing Frog and Genesis might be useful though, because it does a decent job against the decks mentioned above and also Genesis can act as a 2nd Squee if you get Crypted.

@conboy31: Yes, that's right. Your mana base is pretty solid and can take good use of one colorless Mana and Wastelands are the best use for this, by giving you some free wins against screwed opponent's or by buying time. Also, if you untap with a Wasteland in play and an active KotR you can almost be sure to screw your opponent off of one color.

Snief
01-18-2010, 06:09 AM
My experience against blue decks so far says that they are pretty even or matchups in our favour. The threat density was so high that I had never problems resolving a Survival and so I wouldnīt side out Iona.

conboy31
01-19-2010, 06:36 PM
I went about 2-10 vs 43 lands today preboard. It is quite the uphill battle. What appears to be the main way to win is
A) mull into survival
B) go for the quickest Iona on green you can
C) if you get ported, get as many nobles on the board and pray they don't find tabernacle.

Postboard the win numbers go up quite a bit with: 3 crypts, 1 macabre,runed halo, krosan grip, harmonic sliver.

Snief
01-20-2010, 07:24 AM
After testing like 15-20 games against Merfolk I would say its 60-40 in our favour either preboard and postboard. Multiple Kitchen Finks, MoR and big guys like Goyf and Knight win the game in the long run, Iona naming blue is gg obv. Today or tomorrow iīll test vs loam, let you know the results.

eq.firemind
01-20-2010, 07:28 AM
After testing like 15-20 games against Merfolk I would say its 60-40 in our favour either preboard and postboard. Multiple Kitchen Finks, MoR and big guys like Goyf and Knight win the game in the long run, Iona naming blue is gg obv. Today or tomorrow iīll test vs loam, let you know the results.
I'm afraid Relic of Prog could give us troubles since all our big beaters and our main engine feel bad about the little artifact.
What's your impression? Isn't it hurt the deck too much after sideboard?

crow_mw
01-20-2010, 08:19 AM
Maybe I have just faced bad pilots, but I never felt that 43 lands is a bad matchup preboard. Sure, it is a very good deck and loosing games to them is normal, but not over 80% in their favor as you claim.

Sorry for stating the obvious, but as against any recurring wasteland deck most crucial is to fetch basics. We have a lot of them, so lets get as many as possible. Now, the turning point for me in games against lands was whether I was able to quickly destroy manabonds/exploration. Once they are limited to one land a turn they aren't nearly as dangerous.

If I have survival out ports are hardly a problem. You can always activate survival in response to them tapping your land. If I have Hierarchs/Birds out Tabernacle isn't that much of a problem too, because you can pay for upkeep with mana from lands, that would get tapped anyway. In this matchup we can ride far with 2 mana a turn.

As you have also stated - Iona is game against them.

As far as mulling into Survival is concerned - I think that 1st turn Hierarch is more important than turn 2 Survival here.

My experience comes from playing BGW variant, but GW should only be stronger against 43 lands. The major black cards we play - discard and spot removal creatures, aren't particulary useful against lands. On the other hand - GW runs more Pridemages, more creatures and wastelands to slow them down.

Just my few noob thoughts, but hey - the creator of the thread, Tao, is exactly the person to ask about 43lands matchup...

Tao
01-20-2010, 09:20 AM
Merfolk matchup: Relic is very good against us in G1, but Relic, Jitte and Standstill are their only relevant cards and we have Pridemages that are good against these. Sniping Relic with Qasali Pridemage is not a bad play even if it might feel bad at that point. I've won without a resolved Survival or Jitte against a solid opponent who drew three times from Standstills.
Every card we run is good against them while they have lots of mediocre and bad cards that will lose them the attrition war. MoR shines probably more than in any other matchup because you can use her aggressively in combat without having to fear removal, she even stops their Jitte if we didn't draw our own Jitte or a Pridemage. Goyf, Finks and KotR outclass their creatures by far (thus negating any card advantage they might get by Standstill), Swords are great to snipe Lords. And should we get Jitte or Survival online the game is over. The matchup is at least 60-40 for GW.
The matchups against Merfolk, Zoo and Canadian are all very positive and the main reason to play this deck.


43 land is really bad in G1. I haven't tested this deck against 43 so far but from all I know trying to play against it with other Survival decks it is no fun. All Nonbasics are useless and Ports hurt even more. They won't let you get into the game and by the time you finally have established a Mana base they will have already developed the board too far. Even Iona is not game because Maze of Ith will prevent her from attacking and unless she came down really early you might still get overwhelmed.

But I guess being 2-colored, the low mana curve, the Iona Combo, Hierarch, Pridemages to snipe their Exploration or Manabond and KotR give us much better chances against 43-land than most Survival decks would have. It is also important that G2 and G3 get much better because of the yard hate.

You shouldn't be worried about losing to 43 land. That deck is designed to crush creature decks and loses even more against Combo than we do and also loses every time their Zoo opponent draws PoP (or when someone plays a moon effect or B2B).

conboy31
01-20-2010, 09:54 AM
Crow, I agree with much of what you said, save the likelihood of winning the matchup.

I fetched out every basic I had in the deck (5) as I needed them. I sat on fetches if I didn't need the lands at that moment.
I attmpted to pridemage any relevant enchantment on their board.

The problem was that so much of our deck is irrelevant agaisnt them.

Try to rush them, he would find tabernacle. Try to slow down and get wasted and ported into oblivion. I would love to be wrong and increase my winning % to near what you are able to achieve. Maybe it was the lands player pilot we each used?
Regardless, post board went in my favor extremely well. Resolving 1 crypt and one Macabre vs lands is usually GG for this WG survival deck.

edit- Once I have landed Iona I have been able to win every game vs 43 lands preboard (the few games I won). Survival was able to get iona, which means next turn it gets KotR. Meanwhile their engine is shut off. Knight gets 3 consecutive wastelands which will take care of lands mazes.

ramanujan
01-20-2010, 01:07 PM
Evidently Loyal Retainers is quite difficult to find.

How much is the card worth right now? The price is difficult to
estimate because they are not for sale on any websites I have
looked at this morning.

edit(Just looked at ebay, the price should be
less than the current buy it now set at 80 for one of the auctions)

eq.firemind
01-22-2010, 01:52 AM
Stoneforge Mystic 1W
Creature - Kor Artificer (rare)

When Stoneforge Mystic Enters the Battlefield, you may search your library for an equipment card, reveal it, and put it into your hand. If you do, shuffle your library.
1W, tap: Put an Equipment card from your hand onto the battlefield.

1/2

Survival can fetch Jitte.
Also, without Survival this guy seems to be descent 'cause Jitte is always good.
What do you think?

conboy31
01-22-2010, 10:51 AM
I have been playing this deck quite a bit these last few days. Sometimes I would imagine what creature that does not exist that I wished was in my deck.
The most desirable creature I wish this deck could get would be one with some sort of 187 cipt. The second would be a W/G hybrid of the Duergar Hedge-Mage cycle that was never printed. The third would be a creature that finds Jitte, somewhat like this one. I wish it did not have the tap ability and instead had a stronger body, or some other feature. It will be worth throwing in a single copy and see what happens.

I wonder if after taking into account counter spells, yard hate, and artifact destruction the 2 jitte builds will turn into 1 jitte + stoneforge mystic.

morgan_coke
01-22-2010, 11:20 AM
There is a GW creature that does what Duergar Hedge-Mage does. It's called Harmonic Sliver. For White creature based creature kill look at Intrepid Hero.

EDIT: Oh, and if 43lands is really a problem, has anyone tried Tsabo's Web? Or Cornered Market or Primal Order?

dahcmai
01-22-2010, 11:37 AM
I play 43 Lands and was reading this and if there's any cards in G/W that I would not want to see it would be Wheel of Sun and Moon and Ground Seal.

Wheel of Sun and Moon would be the prime choice since it has the added benefit of hosing Dredge pretty hard.

conboy31
01-22-2010, 11:41 AM
There is a GW creature that does what Duergar Hedge-Mage does. It's called Harmonic Sliver. For White creature based creature kill look at Intrepid Hero.

EDIT: Oh, and if 43lands is really a problem, has anyone tried Tsabo's Web? Or Cornered Market or Primal Order?

I use a harmonic sliver in the sb, it is close to what I meant by the Hedge but not exactly. Talking strickly, the Hedge can 2-1, talking abstractly if they printed a w/g version it might have 2 different abilities.

Intrepid Hero does not solve the annoyance of swarms and thieving Sower's but good call on the card!
Lands was not an issue post board using most of the dredge hate on 43 lands.

Tao
01-23-2010, 10:16 AM
I don't think Gree-White should dare to complain about Disenchant effects on a creature because Pridemage is by far the best Disenchant creature in the game.

I really like the idea of Wheel of Sun and Moon. It seems stronger against Dredge than Crypt because it is not a 1-shot so they can't slowdredge to force you to blow it up and Needle also does not work - they lose unless they win with what is on the table or have bounce. Enchanting yourself also gives you a nice out against Painter-Combo if that should be relevant. On the other hand it is much slower and does not undo what they already did with their yard. It also can't hit Squee and Genesis in the Survival Mirror. Not sure about this slot.

To sum up the discussion I tried to make a MD and SB list of what is agreed on to be in every version for every meta. The untouchable core of the deck imo looks like this:

21 Lands

4 [FNM] Mother of Runes
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage

1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers

4 [U] Swords to Plowshares
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest

MoR + Hierarch as 1-Drops are essential for the curve, having them makes every opening hand better. StoP, Goyf and Survival are No-Brainers. KotR is clearly the best 3 drop the deck has. Does everyone agree with this?

52 cards means that 8 slots can be filled with

- a 3rd or 4th Pridemage
- 1-3 Umezawa's Jitte
- Enlightened Tutor
- Sylvan Library
- Elspeth, Knight Errant
- more Kitchen Finks
- a 3rd Horizon Canopy
- 1-3 Gaddock Teegs.


Now to the SB:

I think every version should Postboard have access to:

- 4 Kitchen Finks (Zoo, Tribal, Canadian)
- 3 Umezawa's Jitte (or 2 Jitte + Tutor) (Zoo, Tribal, Dredge)
- 1 Faerie Macabre + 2-3 additional Yard Hate effects (Dredge, Survival, Loam, Reanimator)
- 3 Teeg, 1 Ethersworn Canonist and 1 Glowrider (Combo, mix it up in case of Echoing Truth)
- 3 Krosan Grip (Counterbalance, Staxx)

Additional options are
- Elspeth (dodges Graveyard hate, awesome against Control and against Rock type decks (dodges Removal, gives Evasion))
- Genesis (great with Faerie Macabre, good against Control, can Combo with Spore Frog)
- Spore Frog (I personally don't like it, but some people are dead set on him and without a doubt awesome against Dredge)

flrn
01-23-2010, 11:55 AM
I just came back from the tournament and played the same MD list as yesterday with some minor changes in the SB.
I played it to a 4-2 result today with one VERY unlucky loss against Rock.dec where I established the Iona lock in game 3 naming white (since I knew he plays Sword+Vindicate), I also know he plays Innocent Blood but I still have a Hierarch in play... so everything seems fine until he untaps drops Engineered Plague naming human - thus killing Hierarch - then plays Innocent Blood to get rid of Iona. The game then proceeds and I drop Kitchen Finks while he establishes Goyf+Grunt on his side. Since Iīm already on ten or so I have to chump block with Finks. He then proceeds to drop another Plague naming Ouphe!! Meanwhile I had drawn into another Survival and was kind of relieved as I still had the Spore Frog loop in my deck to stop his beats. So I search up Frog+Genesis and guess whatīs his next play!?.... Yeah right, his third Plague naming "Frog".... :rolleyes: Ok, that game was so random.... I was really frustrated afterwards.... I mean Plague!? WTF! But in this case it was obv good for him he brought them in....

I also boarded Plague against 2 BantGuys. It's simply good. Not only does Plague on human kill your Hierarch, it also kills Loyal Retainers. And for your list. Mother of Runes is also Human. Seems like there were a lot of Survival Decks in Hassloch. :)

Snief
01-23-2010, 03:29 PM
Just arrived after winning a GPT for Madrid with this Deck (finals I played mirror against 'venice'^^) :)
Today I tried a version with 1 Teeg main and he sure won me the game preboard against Dredge. 2nd game won Spore Frog on his own.

The summary of Tao looks right to me, but just to complete the list, here some cards to consider:

-Harmonic Sliver (to make 3/1 split Pridemage/Harmonic)
-Children of Korlis (vs Combo like ANT, but also Dredge)
- True Believer (sometimes game winner, sometimes dead)

spirit of the wretch
01-23-2010, 05:14 PM
Just arrived after winning a GPT for Madrid with this Deck (finals I played mirror against 'venice'^^) :)

Gratz to both of you! Great job.

slayjay
01-24-2010, 07:58 AM
yesterday I had some hours to test this deck again and I am really impressed.
against merfolk I went 5-1 preboard and 3-0 postboard. and he had a strong SB against this deck in form of hibernation and sower of temptation...finks, knights, goyfs, jitte....soooo many good cards.
against dredge I went 3-0 preboard (yes, gaddock is the nuts, then you only have to kill one of your guys with jitte or saccing to remove the bridges...) ok, he hadnīt a nuts draw to kill me in the first or second turn, but without gaddock he would be able to kill me in turn 3 in all 3 games...never would go out of my house without a maindeck gaddock again! he is soooo good!

I used this list:

// Lands
4 [U] Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [LRW] Forest (1)
1 [7E] Plains (3)
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [LG] Karakas

// Creatures
4 [CON] Knight of the Reliquary
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [UL] Mother of Runes
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CON] Noble Hierarch
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
1 [JU] Genesis
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [PY] Spore Frog
SB: 2 [SHM] Runed Halo


my first version runned englithened tutor, but I drew it too often with survival in play and then it is pretty useless...maybe you can find space for this, I canīt ...
karakas is pretty good, and the manabase wonīt die to this...maybe you could play a 4th wasteland instead, I screw my opponents so often with this deck, but I think 3 is the right number.

instead of the 2 runed halo in the sideboard, there was gaddock number 4 and a harmonic sliver, but I lost to often against the dream halls deck. of course gaddock disrupts halls, but show and tell into progenitus turn one or two is too much for your deck, there is nothing you can make...and spore frog / genesis after boarding is good, but not enough imo...
anybody with another good idea against this?
halo is great against storm too! and it isnīt a "narrow" card, a point I really like for the sideboard...cards for several matchups are important.

crow_mw
01-24-2010, 08:16 AM
-Harmonic Sliver (to make 3/1 split Pridemage/Harmonic)


For a non-pridemage artifat/enchantment destruction I would recommend Wickerbough Elder over Sliver. He has a fat ass and is better at dodging CB. Nevertheless I still think that more pridemages is a better option.



The untouchable core of the deck imo looks like this: (...)

I think Mother of runes is a slot people will sooner or later look at to replace. Maybe it will be reasonable to cut 4th Kotr as well, but for now the 'core' looks like a good base.

As for sideboard with GY hate I always found it very useful to run two macabres against Loam. Not only it increases the chances to topdeck one, but also I usually find myself needing to tutor it two times before I can assemble genesis lock.

As far as '4 finks total' is concerned I would consider 3/1 split with Spike Feeder, especially in lists with genesis. His pump skill is rarely relevant but it occasionally allows to mess with opponent math, which I always like. Most important however is the fact that he gives you 4 life on demand where 2 is quite often just not enough and he is easily recurable (unlike black builds there is no therapy, deed, etc to kill your own finks when you need moar life). I am still waiting for white or green-white RWM though.

Tao
01-24-2010, 01:55 PM
- Progenitus: No elegant solutions available afaik, it is either Runed Halo or Fog Frog or Circle of Protection: Red / Green. It is annoying that Fortune Thief and Ali from Cairo both need double red to be cast, it would be cool to protect them via MoR.

- Reducing MoR or KotR would be a big mistake. Mother of runes already disrupts nearly every opponent on turn 1 and KotR is bigger than Goyf and can draw cards, tutor Wastelands or bash for a lot. Finks is solid but does none of this and this deck needs an additional heavy threat besides Survival more than another solid card.

- I think most people here agree that at least ine Teeg in the MD is good. It is a real pity that he and Elspeth never will be friends.

- Snief / venice: Congratulations again. A bit more info on the GPT? How many players, what matchups?

crow_mw
01-25-2010, 07:29 AM
Ok, I am looking for someone to convince me, that Spore Frog is any good. Sure it can auto-win games against random decks, but as far as I know almost all competitive decks, against which frog would matter either are very fast or run spot removal. Likely both. Against Zoo I guess as a t1 play it is semi decent, as it will draw their burn (else they risk it being worth more than 3 life) but by the time you can assemble lock they can just EOT bolt it and alpha strike you. Same with Progenitus, be it in Rock shell or Bant shell. They can just dig for their removal while you keep spending 4 mana a turn, thought admittedly it can buy you the one turn you need to race Prog. It seems to me, that in majority of cases if it helps you, you need to have a board position that is developed so much, that you could just fetch something else for the win. When your board position is bad, it can help you stall the game for a turn or two, hoping for a chain of lucky topdecks, but isn't likely to shift the game back in your favor.

Having said that, I understand that the lock has potential (say, especially if you can protect your frog with mom) and there has been a number of reports, where people claim it won them games, for instance against Ichorid. Therefore I would like to hear some answers from people who indeed play frog - what matchups do you side it in? In what board position in those matchups would they tutor for frog and what would be the expected result? Why other targers (moar Goyfs, Iona, Lifegain with Finks) would be a suboptimal choice compared to frog?

Snief
01-25-2010, 10:11 AM
Ok, I am looking for someone to convince me, that Spore Frog is any good.
Having said that, I understand that the lock has potential (say, especially if you can protect your frog with mom) and there has been a number of reports, where people claim it won them games, for instance against Ichorid. Therefore I would like to hear some answers from people who indeed play frog - what matchups do you side it in? In what board position in those matchups would they tutor for frog and what would be the expected result? Why other targers (moar Goyfs, Iona, Lifegain with Finks) would be a suboptimal choice compared to frog?

After my browser ate my last answer, here again, short: First of all I marked the important phrase.

I side Frog in vs:
-Dredge
-Progenitus
-every aggro matchup (to buy time)

Against Zoo Frog is only good on his own if you can protect it. Otherwise itīs there to buy you 1-2 turn(s), where you can chain Finks into more Finks or just play Iona. But nonetheless Aggro should be a good matchup because every creature we play ist bigger/better/ a pain for the zoo player, except Hierarch.
I tutor Frog as first target against Dredge, because he negates Ichorids for 1 attack and removes Bridges. Against other matchups it depends on the board position. You should see him as backup/staller till you have sth bigger than the opponent.

conboy31
01-25-2010, 10:58 AM
It also seems my browser ate my last post. Maybe bugs with the new site? (stay away from quick reply? and copy post before submitting)

To summarize what I had: Spore frog allows for midgame topdecked survivals to be better than ever. Numerous times I draw it and go:play survival, discard worst creature in hand that was saved for survival-> squee -> iona -> spore frog. Play it. Pass. Sac on their turn. Upkeep squee -> (depending on draw) -> genesis -> loyal retainers ---> Iona. Pass.

It bridges the gap bewtween playing survival and getting another turn to wreck the opponent. It also has random uses as mentioned. I am going to move mine from the MD to the board for a few day, trying out -1 frog, -1 jitte, +1 sword of fire and ice, +1 stoneforge mystic.

soiber2000
02-07-2010, 04:53 PM
I just have won 3 byes for GP Madrid at a local GPTrial in my city. I went 5-1-1 record, winning the quarterfinals and split top4 (there were 4 packs of 3-byes fo all top4).

I've used this list:

// Lands
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Forest
2 Plains
3 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Verdant Catacombs

// Creatures
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Eternal Witness
4 Mother of Runes
1 Loyal Retainers
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Kitchen Finks

// Spells
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
2 Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Path to Exile
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 1 Tsunami


I must say I'm very impressed with the results. The deck is very solid and can play a very agro role with all exalteds and reliquarys and a more controlish survival style.

I have few notes so I don't whrite a report but my pairings have been:

1- Zoo
0-2 - 0 points (0-1)

First game I take a very bad desition about killing an ape or a sylvan library with Qasali. I chose ape and library gives him the game.
Second game I double swords 2 tarmos, and they are followed by 2 reliquarys. I have no big creature and I don's see any survival.

2- Faeries
2-0 - 3 points (1-1)
First game is quite easy and second have nothing to do when I play tsunami followed by choke.

3- White Affinity
2-0 - 6 points (2-1)

I have a bit of luck drawing 2 swords and 1 path. Then survival does the job. Second game I manage to stop the first wave of creatrures, and then iona at white (for paths) and just win.

4- Supreme blue
1-0 - 9 points (3-1)
A very long first game. When he is able to play counterbalance and top and tapped, y try to play survival and have no converted mana cost 2. then I search for 3 reliquarys which are 12/12. Second game is in his favor but have no time to win me.

5- Merfolks
2-1 - 12 points (4-1)
I lose the first game easily, but second and third iona at blue and some removal do the job.

6-Zoo
2-1 - 15 points (5-1)
Just too fast first game. Second game I win with reliquary, and third game with Iona at white.

7- ??
0-0 - 16 points (5-1-1)

Then in quarterfinals

Survival-bant whit natural order.
2-1

First game is very though, his is going to win with wonder making creatures fly, but reliquary fetches for horizon canopy and I draw just the necessary to put iona into play naming white and stopping his creatures. Here I don't know he is playing natural order so I don't put gaddocks.

Second game he puts progenitus into play faster than I can put a survival. I side in 3 Gaddocks.

Thrid game is a long one, but I put a survival, pop a qasali to destroy his survival, and then put gaddock, he swords, and put some pressure, but I put first mother of runes and then iona at green. He tries to gain control of iona with sower, but mother of runes gives pro blue, and he has no swords in hand. I win in 2 turns and then he shows his hand with natural order, tarmo, rhox and eternal witness.

A very solid deck if you don't have to face much combo

conboy31
02-08-2010, 11:16 PM
I cringed when I saw 0 md Teegs, then looked at your match-ups. It looks like you made the correct call. Did 22 lands work alright for you? I have been managing fairly well at 21.

soiber2000
02-09-2010, 08:31 AM
Teeg maindeck is a metagame call, and I expected not too many natural orders, ANT and dredge. I think 3 sideboard is the correct choice in my meta.

22 lands worked very well. I used to play 21 in my old GBW survival without the combo and reliquary, but now with reliquary, wasteland and horizon canopy, I feel it's more consistent with 22. It allows you to crack horizon just after playing it, or play wasteland turn after turn with reliquary, which I don't if it is all that good with 21. It is true that in some matches I drew too many lands, but it is something I don't complain at all, and with survival and reliquary you can make a good use of these lands

Tao
02-09-2010, 04:55 PM
Congratulations to your good finish. Seems like that everyone who plays the deck gets the byes in the GPTs. Haven't heard anything about the deck performing not great. Or do these players just not post?

I would also still like to hear more from Snief and Venice from their GPTs.

I am still a bit confused about what to do with the Teegs. The deck originally started as some kind of GW Aggro Hate with 4 Teegs but it seems that by now Finks are a better MD choice with all the Zoo, Merfolk and Canadian running around, so it is probably right to play only 0 or 1. Your MD looks really good. I am also at 22 lands, but I play 3 Canopies.
I also wouldn't mind one or two additional big threats like a 3rd Jitte or Elspeth, but it seems that your straightforward aggressive build with 4 Pridemages, 3 Finks and additional quick removal worked out well.

For the Sideboard I thought about a single Bojuka Bog. It sounds useful to tutor for Yard removal with KotR, but on the other hand it sucks a lot to draw it when instead you could have drawn a Crypt.



First game I take a very bad desition about killing an ape or a sylvan library with Qasali.

I thought about that for a while and really can't imagine how that happened.

Snief
02-09-2010, 06:48 PM
Hello and sorry for not answering. I was learning for exams for university (right now to be honest^^) and I didnīt play that much Magic since the GPT. I donīt remember that much from the tourney itself, but playing against Dredge in the half finals and the mirror in the finals (it was a small GPT, so not much more rounds before). I think I donīt have to tell you that the mirror -like with every other deck- is absolutely no fun to play and absolutely depends on you starting hand/draw skills. Only thing -stating the obvious- I highly recommend to play 1 Teeg main/Spore Frog SB in a meta where you are expecting Dredge. I was so happy for having Teeg Game 1 where he buyed like 2 turns to get Iona going. 2nd game I won on Spore Frogs back ("Removing bridges AND fog your Ichorids? - Iīll take 2" -in fact I played him every turn with Genesis^^) to win finally with 2 8/8 KotR. Donīt board out MoR to be safe for Firestorm, but thats obv.
Next weekend there will be another GPT I am attending with venice (to get his byes :cool:) and I will take notes this time, promised.

jeanbathez
02-10-2010, 06:36 AM
I also wouldn't mind one or two additional big threats like a 3rd Jitte or Elspeth, but it seems that your straightforward aggressive build with 4 Pridemages, 3 Finks and additional quick removal worked out well.


What about stoneforge mystice instead of a 3. Jitte ? It tutors up the jitte, can carry it and sneak it perhaps into play.

soiber2000
02-10-2010, 08:43 AM
I thought about that for a while and really can't imagine how that happened.

I had noble and qasali in play and beating for 4 each turn, he was at 6 life or so, he played two big creatures (tarmo and/or reliquary) and I removed both. He just had an ape in play and then he played in the same turn another ape and a library. I attacked with qasali thinking and he blocked with both apes. I was holding a reliquary (quite big) so I had to decide either killing an ape or killing library before the damage. And I take the bad desition to kill an ape, hoping that my reliquay ended the game in two turns. It was a big missplay because with library he drew 2 cards paying 4 life and exiled my reliquary and burned noble hierarch, leaving the way open to his ape and another thread he drew after that with library again. He was at 2 but I couldn't do anything else. It was the first game and I was a bit nervous.

paK0
02-11-2010, 11:44 AM
Wow, this is one of the coolest decks i have seen in a long time.
I figures that picking it up might be worth it, so here is some input from my side:

What about Quirion Ranger? Its nuts with Hierarch, so Hierarch + Ranger + 2 Lands = 5 Mana which is actually quite nice.
Since you can cheat on the landcount a little like that what about some mor utility lands? Karakas is obv since it gets rid of iona, and Bojukag Bog (or something like that) in the board is nice as well.

I wonder how far you can push this since it inheretly has the danger of cool things.
Anyways, here is my take on it, first results are promising, but they are mostly MWS so there is a good chance it needs some tweaking:


// Lands
4 [B] Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [UNH] Forest
1 [UNH] Plains
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [LG] Karakas

// Creatures
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers
1 [VI] Quirion Ranger
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
2 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
4 [UL] Mother of Runes
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch

// Spells
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [LE] Glowrider
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [PY] Spore Frog
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog

from Cairo
02-11-2010, 12:00 PM
Quirion Ranger is also insane with Mother of Runes, forcing the opponent to spend an additional removal spell from hand. It's also not bad with Knight and Goyf giving them pseudo Vigilance. I have been playing around with it as a 1-2 of in my list. One of is probably fine, since it's fairly reliant on having other relevant guys in play.

Maëlig
02-11-2010, 07:25 PM
You know what else is awesome with quirion and karakas? Mangara. Double vindicate each turn? Yes please. I'm not sure it's for this deck, though. I've been playing a WG D&T deck for some time now which looks surprisingly similar to this except it packs mangaras and vials instead of finks and tutors. It's performing rather good.

Snief
02-13-2010, 02:24 PM
Next weekend there will be another GPT I am attending with venice (to get his byes :cool:).

As I told you before^^, we both played the GPT and played finals again against each other...I conceded obv. Report(s) will follow.

venice
02-13-2010, 05:11 PM
Well, like Snief said, I still needed to get my own byes for Madrid so itīs about time for another:

"GW-Survival-Pilots crush their way to the GPT-Finals story"! ;)

16 players attended the tournament which resulted in four rounds of swiss + cut to Top 4.

This time I played the following list:

// Mana
4 [u] Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [7E] Forest
1 [MI] Plains
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FNM] Mother of Runes
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
1 [VI] Quirion Ranger
1 [JDM] Genesis
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers

Removal and Engine
4 [u] Swords to Plowshares
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 2 [TSP] Children of Korlis
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [PRO] Spore Frog


1st Round: Frank playing Dredge

Game 1: He winīs the dice roll but has to mulligan three times till he keeps his hand. Nevertheless his start is quite nice since he opens with Cephalid Colloseum => Breakthrough. Fortunately he doesnīt find a dregder so he remains with 0 cards in hand and only one bridge in his graveyard as the only relevant card. So I have enough time to establish my board and by turn 4 I have Iona on my side that finishes him shortly afterwards. He never found his way back into the game.

SB: -4 KotR, -2 Jitte, -1 Mother, -1 Witness, -1 Finks, +3 Crypt, +3 Gaddock, +1 Frog, +2 Children

Game 2: I keep a hand with 2x Children, Hierarch, Sword + lands. He opens with Tireless Tribe. I draw Crypt from the top play it+ Hierarch. He plays land=> Ancient Grudge :/. I play Children+ Goyf. He discards dredger eot and proceeds to dredge into some Ichorids and 1 or 2 bridges. He plays Therapy on me naming StoP, I reveal Children and Finks. He then flashbacks to get some tokens but I sac Children in response. We then stall the board for a while and he keeps on dredging a lot till heīs finally able to overwhelm me with tokens, Iona and a Grave Troll. At this point he has three cards left in his library... very close one...

Game 3: I lead with Spore Frog, followed by a 2nd turn Gaddock. He does not get rid of Teeg and has to sacrifice a few bridges in the process and it all comes down to me finishing him off with a huge Tarmogoyf that canīt be blocked because I have an active Mother of Runes.

1:0


2nd Round: Sven (Snief) with GW-Survival

Great.... honestly, the mirror wasnīt intended to be that early for us... Anyway, since Snief already got his Byes (see page 3), he scoops to me to increase my chances to make Top 4.
Thus:

2:0


3rd Round: Oliver with Bant-Survival

Game 1: He wins the dice roll and leads with Trop=>Hierarch. I mulligan to six and play Savannah, Mother, he forces. He drops Survival and discards Iona to get her back the following turn... I never come back into the game.

SB: -4 Finks, -1 Gaddock, -1 Witness, +3 Grip, +2 Shusher, +1 Spore Frog

Game 2: I keep a hand of Hierarch, 2x Mother, Sword and 3 lands. Though quite good, I donīt draw anything relevant afterwards and thus canīt prevent him from getting his Survival Action going, after ripping it from the top with Squee being his last card in hand.... :/

2:1


4th Round: Martin (MSC from Team SPOD) with Bant Survival

Game 1: He wins the dice roll... :(... Yeah until know I didnīt begin a single Match.... and even worse: I have to mulligan to five while he keeps his opening seven and even revealing it to his team-mate with a smile :/ ... So not exactly what I wanted this match to happen.
Anyway, I keep a quite decent hand (I mean decent for a five-card hand), which includes Mother of Runes, Goyf, Sword and two lands. As the game starts it turns out that Martin kept a quite aggressive hand with lots of dudes but no Survival. But since Iīm ripping another Goyf and a 2nd Mother from the Top my board position starts to stabilize and I can apply a good amount of pressure with an attacking Goyf while the other one kept his 2 War Monks in check. When he finally finds his Survival heīs already at 11 life and though heīs able install Iona he canīt stop my two Goyfs which are protected my MoR. That was a nice one! Starting with 5 cards and winning nevertheless! Mother of Runes is such a beating!!!

SB: see Round 3

Game 2: I keep a hand of 2x Hierarch, Mother, Sword, Survival, Grip and Fetchland. He leads with Trop=>Hierarch. I play land=>sword; he moans! He draws and doesnīt play a second land. Meanwhile I rip my second land from the top and play Hierarch+Mother. He plays land Survival. I draw Wasteland! Play grip and waste one of his lands. He draws and has no land, so he passes. I draw a second Survival, play one of them which gets forced. So I play the 2nd Hierarch and pass. He draws land and drops Goyf. I draw Sword play it and try the 2nd Survival which gets Spell Snared... :/ He draws and plays Ponder or sth and passes. I draw KotR! play it - it resolves. He plays sth irrelevant doesnīt drop another land and passes. I blow up his lands the following turns and he canīt come back into the game.

3:1

So I end up being 2nd after the swiss. Meanwhile Snief also managed to make it to the 3:1 record so we are both in Top4!

As pairings for Top4 are announced it turns out that Snief and I are not paired against each other which means if we both win our match => GG for me! But till then itīs still one Match to play.

Top4: Michael playing RGB Aggro Loam (feat. Wishes and Dreams)

I ask him if he actually goes to Madrid which he negates. Nevertheless he doesnīt want to scoop because his friend is playing against Snief so they somehow follow the same plan as we do, with one exception of course - we play the good deck! ;P
So I have to play it out against him.

Game 1: He wins the dice roll (notice a certain pattern here?!? Something must be wrong with that...). Anyway his first two draws seem to be bad, thus he leads with only five cards and starts with land, pass. I play fetch, pass. He drops land, confidant, I sword eot. During my turn I drop a Pridemage. He drops another land and 2nd Bob. I play land, KotR! He plays Wish into Dreams and has 3 other cards in hand. I have another land + Hierach in my hand and keep them, in case he really plays DD next turn. So I "only" play Finks and attack with Pridemage. On his turn he really plays Dreams for 3, to which I respond by activating my KotR which leaves him with nothing on the board and me with a persisted Finks and really(!) huge Knight. Obv. a really bad play of his, but it turns out that he thought the Knight would die to his Dreams which leave only my Finks on the board.....

SB: -1 Teeg, -2 Jitte, +2 Shusher, +1 Spore Frog

Game 2: This time I have to mulligan to six but keep a pretty decent hand of 3x land, Genesis, Survival, Frog. He leads with Mox, land, Goyf which is totally fine for me. I play Frog and pass. He plays Crusher and attacks. I drop Survival, pass. He plays nothing and attacks. I drop my 3rd land and attack with Frog ;). Meanwhile his Crusher is 8/8 so I have to sac the Frog to buy me the needed time, he also plays Wish into Maelstrom Pulse during his turn. I survival Genesis+ Squee+ Iona into my Yard eot and get Iona on Green into play during my turn. Luckily he doesnīt reveal anymore lands with his Crusher so I am able to take the Crusher beats and block his Goyf. Since heīs not able to play his Pulse he goes for Chalice@1 to prevent me from recurring "The Mighty Frog". Thus I survival for Vexing Shusher eot, having Finks in hand to play both the next turn. The following turn I replay the Frog through Shusher and he scoops it up!

4:1

Meanwhile Sven aka Snief also defeated his opponent so our plan paid off and weīre both through to the finals again! Yeah! Snief concedes to me, so I take home the 3 Byes while he takes all of the price Boosters for scooping to me twice! Thanks again for that man! Our plan worked out really well Iīd say! ;)

So finally I am really satisfied with the deck once more. The inclusion of Quirion Ranger is really worth its slot. His synergy with Mother, Hierarch AND Knight is REALLY strong and at least heīs enabling some nice combat tricks. Thus, heīll probably stay in the list.
One thing I will probably cut next time are the Children of Korlis though. While being nice against ANT and Dredge I feel there must be sth more powerful.
I definitely will reinclude Faerie Macabre in one of these slots. That card is just to good not to play it and with all the Survival, Loam and Reanimator builds around, itīs even more valuable I guess.
Another card I want to include is Karakas. Todays tournament was like 80% of the decks including Iona (Suvival, Dredge and Reanimator) and if that trend continues in Madrid I definitely want another Out in my deck.

With that said: see you in Madrid!

dahcmai
02-14-2010, 12:19 AM
Had only 18 people at our local legacy tournament, but I played this and at least got some good matches in.

Here's the list I used. I'll explain some of my weird choices afterwards.


4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Forest
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Loyal Retainers
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest
2 Enlightened Tutor


SB

3 Krosan Grip
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Sprore Frog
1 Genesis
1 Saffi Eriksdotter
1 Essence Warden
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Choke
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon



Maindeck was pretty standard fare since I had not played the deck before and only changed a couple of things since I knew what people play around here. It's very Merfolk, Dredge, CB Top, and Zoo heavy. Hence the Finks and Teeg both making the main. I wanted some defense against the mass amount of EE's and Burn to fly out of these decks.


Round 1 - Justin w Dredge

Squeaked this one out of my ass. Teeg shut off the Dread Return so he starts attacking with his 1/1 flyers and Ichorids. I have no choice but to get Iona out and start doing some blocking instead of attacking. Finks saves me in the end giving me just enough life to swing in with enough of an army to get through for the last amount he had.

Game 2 - board in Wheel of Sun and Moon, Genesis, Spore Frog, Saffi, Essence Warden, and then realize I forgot to add in the Faerie Macabre I wanted to put in instead of that 3rd Choke. oops.

Luckily, I don't need that faerie and get the Wheel right off the bat and drop it before he even gets threshold for the imp. That card is a beating in the match up and proves it yet again.

1-0

Round 2 Greg w Zoo

Somehow he manages to not draw removal and my 1st turn MoR and then 2nd turn MoR go unanswered. It's GG quite quickly from there as I build a force up of unkillable guys that are bigger than goyfs and Kird apes.

Game 2 - Kitchen Finks and the 2 Jittes come in. Might have boarded more, but forgot.

I play this odd game of "I'm the aggro deck!" and go ballistic on him with Goyfs, Knights, and Finks. I overrun him strangely enough and lock him out eventually with Iona as if it was needed.

2-0

Round 3 Mike w White Stax

I spend the first game getting pummeled by 1st turn Trinisphere, Chalice @1, Ghostly prison, and a bunch of other things after I mulligan to 5. It wasn't fun. I practically never played a thing.

Game 2 - Another smashing he proceeds to mana screw me and my deck helps.

Round 4 - Christian with Black Discard

Not sure how this one got up here. He opens with Quest of the Nihil. Really?

I see things like Blood Vassal and such. Knight and Goyf decide this is an ok time to attack.

Game 2 is much the same.


Top 4

White stax again? Crap...

Well, not much changed since then. Mulligan to 4, I mana screw and he helps put me under.

Game 2 - I get some actual answers this time and some basics. I quickly end it with Iona on white. He scoops.

Game 3 - Finally a decent start, but Supression field puts an end to my fun. I end up having to destroy everything but that supression field and it's costing me. He drops two more and I practically have to pack it in. I can only pridemage them away if I can pay 6 mana due to already burning the Grips and O ring on other nasties. lol Yeah I'm done.


Overall, I am quite impressed and played a few games on the side. This deck doesn't seem to mind other Survival decks, Canadian Thresh seems half and half. Maybe that's my inexperience with it though. White Stax is obviously a problem, but I guess it should have a problem with that thing since it's designed to mutilate creature based strategies. I also didn't draw much removal for all those artifacts either so it's hard to say. I spent more time trying to find land.

Saffi and Essence warden are auto wins if you set it up vs Goblins or some such deck that can't stop you from chaining a combo together. That's the only reason it was there, though I think it's unnessary considering how strong the Iona combo is.

Wheel was amazing. I always forget how much of a bashing it is against a lot of decks. Teeg surprised me on how many uses he had. He stopped Dread Return and Breakthrough in Dredge. He stopped Force, EE, Chalice, Smokestack, Aramageddon, Natural Order, and a bunch of other things and that was only what I had played against today. He's worth maindecking.

I'll be playing it again next week. So far I like this deck a lot.

Snief
02-14-2010, 06:47 AM
So...this is my report "The wingman takes it all" :-)

Like venice aka Christopher already told 16 players were attending the GPT. We arrived at the store just to see a majority of familiar faces from Team SPOD and other players from monthly tournaments in our region. So what? It will be fun nonetheless to smash faces!

I played a list very similar to Christophers in the post above, with a few minor changes. So...let the beating begin!

Round 1: Martin Schröder(?) with Reanimator

Game 1 he wins the dice roll and starts with Swamp->Ritual->...Avatar of Discord. WTF? Then he discards Blazing Archon and sth unimportant and I know what heīs playing. I look at my hand with 2 land, Hierarch, KotR, Goyf and double StoP (harhar). So easy one, am I right? I am right because he plays nothing else in this game and I win very easy with my two beatsticks.
Game2 he starts again with Land->Ritual->Buried Alive -> Iona, Sphinx of the Steel wind and another beater. I lead with MoR, next turn Survival when he plays Reanimate on Iona and drops to 11 life. After boarding Spore Frog in, my plan is installing the Spore Frog loop with Genesis and slowly beat him down with a tutored Goyf (protected by MoR). In his turn he draws and asks me, if Pithing Needle on Spore Frof works. "Hm, donīt know for sure" (read:"F***") So after pondering, he plays Needle naming Frog. I concede.
Game3 I take a mulligan to keep a hand with 2 Land, Hierarch, Faerie Macabre, Survival and StoP. I start with Land Hierarch, he with Entomb->Iona and smiles. End of turn I discard the Faerie to remove Iona. This time I smile. In my turn I play Survival. The game continues. He tries to reanimate the big, bad Sphinx but I still have the StoP. He is at 7, playing another buried alive with one mana open (for Reanimate, I assume). He looks through his library and concedes. Nice!

1:0

Round 2: Christopher aka venice

Like I promised before I concede to maximize his chances to be Top4. We discuss boarding strategies and look what everyone else is playing. I lose 2:1^^.

1:1

Round 3: Frank Baier with Dredge

He isnīt pleased at all to play again against our Deck (but what he doesnīt know is that I play a Gaddock main).
Game1 he starts with a Mulligan. Then Land->PImp. I play Land, MoR. In his turn I am considering what to play next, just to rip the Teeg from the top and play it. He looks pissed. Nonetheless he is able to develop his board further while I am mana screwed. So he wins with 4-5 Zombies and 2 Ichorids.
Game2 I keep a nice hand with Hierarch, Survival and Crypt. I lead with Land, Hierarch, he with land Tireless Tribe. I install Survival. He consideres to discard his whole hand but just do so with Iona and Dread Return, dredges, hit a Moeba and a bridge, smiles, passes. I crypt him. He never finds back in this game since I develop my board with Teeg, Spore Frog and Kitchen Finks and sword his Tribe. So I win SHort after.
Game3 he hits nothing relevant with his dredges while I have Teeg, Survival and finally Iona. With enough power to kill him on the board he asks me if I would concede to let him chances for Top4. I decline ( I wouldnīt have to play the tourney if I would concede to everyone just because I have my byes). Besides, this is the payback for all the lost games before against you, Frank (just joking)!

2:1

Round 4: Alexander Vey with BGUW Loam

He plays a very interesting but slow deck resulting in a record of 1-0-2.
Game1 I donīt remember everything. I win because of Survivals card advantage and a big KotR due to the fact I wasted him 3 lands before.
Game2 is a race between my and his Goyf until he finds his Shriekmaw which he plays every round via Volrathīs Stronghold. I manage to draw 4 lands in a row and lose to his single Goyf.
Game3 is much like the second game until I find multiple sword. By this time we are already in the extra turns, he is at 4 life, me at 11. He has no chance to win and concedes to me, because he would have lost anyway^^ or because he is just a nice guy with no chances for Top4.

3:1

So, after swiss I manage to sneak at the 4th place. The other players are Christopher aka venice with GW Survival, 1 RGB Loam and a 4color-Zoo build.

Top4: "Sorry, didnīt write down his name" with 4c Zoo
Nice! The best matchup I could have been paired against :D

Game1: He has a slow start and I have Iona turn4, naming white, making half his deck useless (Pridemage, Ajani Vengeant, Vindicate, Swords). He scoops.
Game2 he leads with Bayou, Nacatl. I play MoR. He bolts my mother, Plateau, attack for 3. I play land, Hierarch. He land, Chain Lightning at my Hierarch, attack for 3, Goyf. I play land, Kitchen Finks (I had Survival in my starting hand, but his very fast start makes me play other cards). He vindicates my Finks, attack, I block the Goyf and take 3 from Nacatl. Topdecker that I am I rip the next Finks from the top, play them and another Hierarch. He is slightly pissed. Attack from his side, Finks trade with Nacatl, take Goyfs 3. In my turn I play Survival and chain me through Squee and Genesis into Spore Frog. I have to sac and replay the Frog for like 2 additional turns until he manages to play a Leyline of the void. I have to remove my Squee to get rid of the Leyline with Pridemage. He just plays another Leyline, but this time I can tutor another Pridemage in response. In my turn I destroy the evil enchantment and have time to chain Iona into Retainers into Iona on white. I win the game with a big Angel riding a shiny equipment (read: Jitte) to victory. He told me before that he is going to Madrid nonetheless and if the Loam player would win against venice that he would get the byes because they are friends. I tell him, that if the Loam player wins I will concede because I have my byes already. Unlucky for him Christopher wins just 2-0 and I am in the finals...again.

Finals: I concede to Christopher again (that wasnīt planned!!^^), so he has the byes. What should I say? I am undefeated second :-)

So, maybe there will be minor changes, but this is the Deck I am playing at GP Madrid. See you all there!

Waikiki
02-14-2010, 07:00 AM
Well, like Snief said, I still needed to get my own byes for Madrid so itīs about time for another:

"GW-Survival-Pilots crush their way to the GPT-Finals story"! ;)

16 players attended the tournament which resulted in four rounds of swiss + cut to Top 4.

This time I played the following list:

// Mana
4 [u] Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [7E] Forest
1 [MI] Plains
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FNM] Mother of Runes
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
1 [VI] Quirion Ranger
1 [JDM] Genesis
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers

Removal and Engine
4 [u] Swords to Plowshares
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 2 [TSP] Children of Korlis
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [PRO] Spore Frog



61 cards is this right ?

spirit of the wretch
02-14-2010, 08:03 AM
As I told you before^^, we both played the GPT and played finals again against each other...I conceded obv. Report(s) will follow.

Massive props to you two! Job well done. See you in Hassloch, I hope.

And that this doesn't stay an off-topic one-liner:

Why do you play Shusher in the board? Seems kind of redundant with the Grips (and the cats maindeck) against CB, and other counterheavy decks are virtually non-existant. Enlighten me =)

slayjay
02-14-2010, 10:32 AM
grats, snief and venice, for more success with this great deck! hope I can play it in upcoming weeks in frankfurt or hassloch for myself :D

venice
02-14-2010, 11:07 AM
@Waikiki: Yes, 61 cards is right.

@SpiritOfTheWretch: Thanks! And yes, weīll definitely be there next Sunday. ;)
On the Shusher issue: they come in against Loam to negate their Chalice (I would also bring them in against Stompy.dec for the same purpose). Being able to cast StoP on their big guys is really crucial. As is recurring Frog, if they go really aggro. And although not played that much atm, they are of course also great against heavy control and cb-top - especially if you get an active Mother of Runes to protect it! In my opinion the MatchUp vs. CB.dec is not that good, even more so if the player knows what heīs doing, thus I wanted an extra Silverbullet against those kind of decks. And so far Iīm quite satisfied with them.

@Slayjay: Thanks! Yeah, I hope to see you next weekend in Haßloch, too - joining us with the deck of course! ;)

Tao
02-14-2010, 12:17 PM
Very good job again guys : )

I can't say much new but I noticed a few things.

- Children of Korlis does not help against ANT: Your hate card not only has to keep them from winning with Tendrils of Agony but also from casting Ad Nauseam. This way they have to spend a tutor to find bounce which will slow them down so you can get more hate. With Children of Korlis they can use their Tutor for Ad Nauseam, draw 20 cards and bounce the Children before casting Tendrils.

- The White Staxx matchup / dahcmai: I think the matchup is positive and the losses were statistic deviations. 2 of your 4 losses involved mulligans into oblivion and one a ridiculous draw on his side (Turn 1 Trinisphere on the play beats ~ every deck in the format and they have have it in ~ 1 of 20 games and need to be on the play). Usually they are much more vulnerable to Mulligans than GW. Also note that you have 3-4 Disenchant effects maindeck, 3-4 in the Sideboard and if you get 3 mana sources into play for 2 turns you will often have won the game because that is enough to get Iona going. I really don't see this matchup being a problem, but if you (like me) often have problems with Wastelands or not drawing enough lands just play 22 Lands/ 60 cards.

- Venice's Aggro Loam boarding plan is one of the weirdest things Ive seen but I guess it worked out. I would have never ever thought about siding Shusher in (instead of Yard hate) and I am still unsure.

- Snief: there is no need to Disard Faerie so early. Doing it in response to his Reanimation spell will completely wreck him (as a Mono B deck he can't even Stifle).

Snief
02-14-2010, 12:38 PM
- Snief: there is no need to Disard Faerie so early. Doing it in response to his Reanimation spell will completely wreck him (as a Mono B deck he can't even Stifle).

Yeah, right, but Iīm always a bit nervous round 1 and never played against Reanimator with this Deck before. Thus it was not the perfect decission, but still a right one :)
Boarding against Loam is very difficult I think and highly depends on their build (5c, RGB, Bant Loam?). I donīt know either if the sideboarding is right, but it looks like it worked.
Children of Korlis helps against ANT, but only if it is protected by MoR. So the conclusion, cutting them or playing less is right.

MSC
02-15-2010, 08:36 AM
4th Round: Martin (MSC from Team SPOD) with Bant Survival

Getting Ripped by a single Mother Game One was kind of Sad. And you really drew lucky with double Survival here.

Game 2 was just a mess. I shouldn't have keept that 1-Lander and I'm a bit sad, that you keept a One-Hander yourself, but ripped another Sword and 2 Wastelands to totally screw me...

Of course my Props as well for winning your Byes. See you next week in Hassloch!

soiber2000
02-18-2010, 08:45 AM
What about a single Scryb Ranger instead of quirion ranger? It works excelent with mother, noble and reliquary, but also it has proteccion from merfolks, with flash you can untap a big goyf or reliquary to block, and it has flying which is great with all exalted guys and specially with jitte.

Snief
02-18-2010, 09:31 AM
I donīt ever needed a creature with pro:merfolk because itīs a good matchup anyway. Everything else Quirion Ranger does as good as the faerie; flying is/was never relevant to me. Nonetheless, test it and maybe it works for you.

Maveric78f
02-18-2010, 09:35 AM
Flash, Flying and pro-U make the complete difference.

Tao
02-18-2010, 04:14 PM
My current version with my SB strategies:

// Lands
4 [U] Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [7E] Forest (2)
1 [MI] Plains (3)
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [FUT] Horizon Canopy

// Creatures
4 [FNM] Mother of Runes
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
2 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers

// Spells
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 5 Yard Hate (1 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and MoonS, 1 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap, 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre, 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog, 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt)

MD
- 22 lands feel right, also because Merfolks and Canadians best shot against the deck is Mana Denial
- I didn't always like Qasali Pridemage (bad against Canadian, Zoo, Dredge; only average vs. both Tribal decks even if they draw Vial) so I went down to 2.
- 2 MD Elspeth's feel good as an addional threat that can give the big guys evasion, important against Countertop and other Control strategies
- I was never a fan of 1-offs so I don't want to cut better cards for Quirion or Scryb Ranger

SB:
- the Yard hate is split in 5 to get around Dredge answers; I think a good Dredge matchup is important for a Meta deck so I feel fine with dedicating extra slots to it
- the 1 Tutor comes in against Combo and everything that does not play Islands

Also note that I often side out the Iona/Retainers combo. That has 2 reasons: First is that post board the opponent will be likely to stop Survival or our Graveyard and second is that I don't like to side out solid cards for specific SB hate, it often weakens the main game plan. The Combo is best in G1 when the opponent can't do anything about it.

Countertop
Finks are outclassed by their creatures and Survival will usually be prevented by them, so Finks and Iona go out. If they play red for Firespout leave Finks in instead of Teegs.

- 2 Loyal Iona
- 2 Finks
+ 1 Teeg
+ 3 Krosan Grip

Canadian: Qasali does nearly nothing and Iona would have to name blue against the 4 Submerge they side in. Also unlikely to get on the board because they will keep a Spell Snare in reserve for Survival if they can. If you get Survival massing Finks and Goyf is just fine. Bog comes in to make colorless Mana and shrink Mongeese. PtE is good even though they play Geese because if you can handle their Goyfs they will have a hard time dealing damage with Nimble Mongoose against MoR, Goyf, Finks and KotR. Can also target your own creatures when in despair for Mana.

- 2 Loyal Iona
- 2 Qasali
- 1 Elspeth
+ 1 Bojuka Bog
+ 2 PtE
+ 2 Finks

Zoo
Qasali can stay because of Relic while Iona is just not needed, if Survival + Yard are both ok then we can just mass Finks or Goyfs instead.
- 2 Elspeth
- 2 Iona / Retainers
- 1 Teeg
+ 1 E Tutor
+ 2 PtE
+ 2 Finks

Merfolk
They will have 4 Relics postboard, so relying on Yard is not what we want. Elspeth is too slow.
-2 Elspeth
- 2 Loyal Iona
+ 2 PtE
+ 2 Finks

Dredge: Preboard the matchup is very reliant on Survival or randomly drawing Teeg and they are sometimes just too fast. But Postboard it feels very good, Yard hate plus good blockers blus Jitte will usually win.

- 2 Elspeth
- 2 Pridemage
- 2 KotR
- 1 Witness
+ 1 Teeg
+ 1 E. Tutor
+ 5 Yard Hate

ANT: Meh. Not much to say, avoid the matchup.
- 4 Swords to Plowshares (unless you fear Confidant)
+ 1 Teeg
+ 1 Enlightened Tutor
+ 1 Faerie Macabre (if they get overconfident that you can't do anything and don't play around Faerie you might sneak a win by meddling with Cabal Ritual or respond to Ill-Gotten Gains targets)
+ 1 Ethersworn Canonist

Goblins: I tested a few games and was positively surprised. Unless they play with 4 Warren Weirding the matchup is clearly positive. MoR, Goyf, Finks and KotR dominate the board and especially KotR gets very big. Unless they connected with Lackey or have Vial against a subpar draw I was always able to keep being ahead on the board.

- 2 Elspeth
- 1 Teeg
- 1 KotR
- 1 Qasali Pridemage
+ 1 E Tutor
+ 2 Finks
+ 2 PtE

venice
02-21-2010, 03:16 PM
Hey guys! Iīm just cominīback from our monthly Haßloch tournament. 43 players attended, so we had to play 6 rounds of Swiss. I didnīt take much notes, so Iīll take the shortcut... :wink:

I finished 5-0-1 piloting the GW-Survival once more to a pretty decent 2nd place (due to bad opp score; the guy who won also had 16 points in the end) and ended up picking a minty Volcanic Island! ;)

My Match-Ups were:

Round 1: BWR "Rock" kind of built feat. Sinkhole, Wastes, Tabernacle, Crucible, Ajani Vegeant and stuff... I win 2-0
Round 2: Sven aka "Snief" with GW Survival. We donīt want to play it out => ID
Round 3: Dragon Stompy 2-0
Round 4: Imperial Painter 2-0
Round 5: Team America 2-0
Round 6: ANT 2-1

I was VERY satisfied with my list this time, even more than last week, since I made some minor tweaks. For now I wouldnīt change a single card mainboard, only one SB Slot is still debatable but will probably stay there for Madrid. I will probably post the list when Iīm back from the Grand Prix.

The funny thing is: if Snief had won his last round (he also was 4-0-1 after round 5) we would have been place 1 and 2 once again! :cool:

soiber2000
02-21-2010, 03:58 PM
Hey guys! Iīm just cominīback from our monthly Haßloch tournament. 43 players attended, so we had to play 6 rounds of Swiss. I didnīt take much notes, so Iīll take the shortcut... :wink:

I finished 5-0-1 piloting the GW-Survival once more to a pretty decent 2nd place (due to bad opp score; the guy who won also had 16 points in the end) and ended up picking a minty Volcanic Island! ;)

My Match-Ups were:

Round 1: BWR "Rock" kind of built feat. Sinkhole, Wastes, Tabernacle, Crucible, Ajani Vegeant and stuff... I win 2-0
Round 2: Sven aka "Snief" with GW Survival. We donīt want to play it out => ID
Round 3: Dragon Stompy 2-0
Round 4: Imperial Painter 2-0
Round 5: ITF 2-0
Round 6: ANT 2-1

I was VERY satisfied with my list this time, even more than last week, since I made some minor tweaks. For now I wouldnīt change a single card mainboard, only one SB Slot is still debatable but will probably stay there for Madrid. I will probably post the list when Iīm back from the Grand Prix.

The funny thing is: if Snief had won his last round (he also was 4-0-1 after round 5) we would have been place 1 and 2 once again! :cool:

Not so lucky for me this weekend. I finished 3-2-2 in a 96 player tournament. I haven't had time to win 2 rounds (zoo and Natural order bant, 1-1) so only 11 points, but also only losing 2 rounds, which is not so bad in a big tournament. The loses have been ANT and Team America.

I've tested scryb ranger and I've liked it. The surprise effect is great, and it has won me a match against reanimator. I am a bit worried about ANT match up because I have nothing to do with it. I'm starting thinking in make some sideboard changes, adding chalice of the void or the blue trap. Gaddog is not enough and choke maybe it is not so usefull in the current meta (because noble hierarch is all around) and maybe I'll cut them in the Sb for more stuff against ANT and zoo for Gp Madrid.

Philipp2293
02-21-2010, 04:43 PM
@Tao: You state that you are not a fan of 1-offs, and you also said that in G1, if you have an Survival, Iona is Plan A-X. So, without Survival, Gaddock Teeg is mostly a random 1-off and with Survival, you're going Iona anyway. What's the reasoning for 1 Gaddock MD? I would switch it for 1 additional Kitchen Finks probably, as you could still side in Gaddock in the relevant MUs.

My Anti-Combo SB would probably be 3 Gaddock/3 Canonists, as this split enables T1 Mom into T2 Anti-Combo-Bear. So SB would probably be:

3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Ethersworn Canonists
3 Krosan Grip
5 Anti-GY (not sure about the split)
1 Kitchen Finks

any comments on that?

Also any words on LoamPox? Honestly I'm not too happy about this MU on paper.

Rigero
02-21-2010, 05:46 PM
I was playing the deck this weekend too, in our local store. 22 people, 5 rounds.
I finished 5-0 (10-2) which was place 1.

List i've played:


// Lands
3 Savannah
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
2 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Forest

// Creatures
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Qasali Pridemage
1 Loyal Retainers
4 Mother of Runes
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

// Spells
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Spore Frog
SB: 1 Genesis
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 1 Dueling Grounds
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre

My match-ups were:

Round 1: UWr Landstill 2-1
Round 2: Bant-survival with Iona 2-0
Round 3: UWrb Landstill 2-0
Round 4: BGW-goodstuff 2-0
Round 5: Dredge 2-1


It was a lot of fun to play the deck, but i was lucky not to get paired with one of the combo decks. I also don't think 3 or even 4 teegs are enough to give us a good matchup to combodecks. Next Time i definitly play only 3 Wastelands and add another Horizon Canopy and add 1 or 2 Canonists in the Sideboard agains ANT.

Tao
02-21-2010, 06:00 PM
@Snief and Venice. Too bad that snief lost a game, but still congratulations. I guess it is time for established deck forum, I think I'll write to a mod.

@Phillip:
Both Teeg and either Ranger have about the same strength against a random deck when drawn. Ranger usually does some shenanigans with MoR or KotR or saves you from Wasteland, and Teeg is good because every Deck to beat plays a card that gets shut down by Gaddock, even Zoo can't Fireblast you with Gaddock on the board. But Gaddock is an absolute key card against Combo and Dredge, often the only chance to win G1 while Ranger is more of a toy.

Going overboard on the ANT hate seems not the best use of SB slots. I don't know how Snief managed to beat ANT, but I think it is better to strengthen the good matchups even more instead of dedicating 6 slot to make a bad matchup go from 25% to 40%. After losing G1 they are on the play in G3 and might just kill you before you get down your first hate bear. But if you want to dedicate more slots I would advice to play 2 Enlightened Tutor / 1 Canonist instead of 3 Canonist. The Tutor can also grab Yard hate against Dredge or Jittes and Survivals against any nonblue deck. Another good SB acard against Combo is Thorn of Amethyst. With Tutor the 1 Crypt, 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon (both for E Tutor), 1 Faerie Macabre (Survival), 1 Bojuka Bog (KotR), 1 Ravenous Trap split very good.

Edit: @Rigero: Well done, another great finish, I think I'll make a count o the tournament results posted in this thread.

venice
02-22-2010, 05:51 AM
@Snief and Venice. Too bad that snief lost a game, but still congratulations. I guess it is time for established deck forum, I think I'll write to a mod.

I don't know how Snief managed to beat ANT.

Actually, it was me beating ANT not Snief. ;)
However, both wins were due to Mother of Runes + Gaddock Teeg on turn 2. ^^ I think that start is possibly the only way of winning this match, and still then itīs not save yet if they have wipe away or double bounce for instance.
From my experience with the deck I totally agree that even with six or more SB cards the ANT Matchup remains bad, since the deck is just too fast. Thus, I would not recommend overextending SB space for it.

Snief
02-22-2010, 11:22 AM
Woohooo...Established Decks Forum!

As venice already pointed out, I piloted the deck to a solid 4th place in our monthly tournament with 43 players this time.

Round 1: Bant with Painter/Grindstone(?) 2-1
Round 2: GW Survival (venice) ID
Round 3: Dragonstompy 2-0
Round 4: Cat Tribal (spirit of the wretch) 2-0
Round 5: Enchantress 2-1
Round 6: TTT 0-2

I can only repeat that every aggro matchup should be positive with the list venice and me are playing. Even the Tempothresh last round should be pretty even, but I managed to draw multiple lands and only MoR/Hierarchs in both games, so I had not enough pressure. Combo is not very good for us but I think after boarding it can be manageable, speaking of Dredge and ANT. Enchantress is a pretty bad matchup, although I managed to win it (with very lucky draws and my opponent screwed the last game). I was also surprised that Dragonstompy seems to be a better matchup than I thought.
One thing I have to disagree with is Taos statement about boarding out Iona+Retainers. I would never (read: Never!) do that, just because it can win games on its own. Also I would not play Choke, even in a list with E.tutor, because most of the time you want to be the aggressive deck, not the one which stalls the game.But maybe this is just my approach of playing the deck.

As a SB I woul suggest sth like:
-4 grave hate (Crypt/Macabre/BojukaBog)
-x Gaddock Teeg (should be 3-4 Main+SB)
-x Krosan Grip (3 looks right to me now)
-1 Ethersworn Canonist
-1 Spore Frog
-x Cards depending on your playstyle

Boarding plan Canadian:
You should also consider to board in Gaddock Teeg, depending on your opponents build. My opponent boarded Submerge+Explosives against me, so Teeg is shining here.

@Rigero: Gratz for your result. I also like your maindeck :-) How was Maze of Ith for you?

Rigero
02-22-2010, 11:38 AM
@Rigero: Gratz for your result. I also like your maindeck :-) How was Maze of Ith for you?

I love it. It's nice against Tombstalker, other flying creatures and Dreadnoughts. It helps in many situations when we need some time after a firespout or a pernicious deed. I don't want to miss it again, because i win a lot of testgames with it, when searching for it with the KotR.

Phoenix Ignition
02-22-2010, 11:55 AM
Is Counterbalance a very good card against this deck? If not I would definitely suggest Aura of Silence over K grip, to greatly improve your Enchantress matchup (and Affinity, which can always be randomly run into). It is also not a dead card against Combo, as it pretty much shuts off their Lotus Petals/LED, making AdN math much more difficult for them.

venice
02-22-2010, 04:18 PM
Is Counterbalance a very good card against this deck? If not I would definitely suggest Aura of Silence over K grip, to greatly improve your Enchantress matchup (and Affinity, which can always be randomly run into). It is also not a dead card against Combo, as it pretty much shuts off their Lotus Petals/LED, making AdN math much more difficult for them.

A resolved Counterbalance can give the deck some trouble indeed (as this is probably true for most decks), so Krosan Grip is definitely necessary here. Itīs flexibility also shines against decks like Dreadstill which is also pretty counterheavy, Painter combo and of course other Survival decks. Being at instant-speed and nearly uncounterable are two facts that boost Grip way over the top compared to other similar cards, thus for me itīs almost a no-brainer to play that card if I can.

Besides that I agree that Aura of Silence is pretty strong in a few matchups, especially Enchantress. But I guess that is almost the only matchup where you REALLY want it.
Against ANT it will either be too slow in my oppinion or it wonīt interrupt them enough since they can still play their tutors for normal casting cost and just search an eot bounce and go off.
VS. Affinity Iīd rather have one Kataki SB, since I can survival him up, it takes only one sb-slot and I can cast it one turn earlier if I draw it during my first two turns.
If I had two or three more SB slots available I would give Aura a try but since my SB is already really tight because so many cards are just set for me Iīd always rather have Grips because itīs just such a strong and very flexible card.

soiber2000
02-23-2010, 02:28 AM
What do you think about guttural response as a 3of in the board instead of choke? Something like this: 3 krosan grip 3 tormods crypt 3 gaddock teeg 3 guttural response 2 path to exile 1 kitchen finks guttural response could be intgeresting in all these bant versions against counters, and also can help against mystical tutor or bounce spell against ant.

Philipp2293
02-23-2010, 03:15 AM
The thing that worries me most against Bant Decks are Progenitus/Iona, and Guttural Response doesn't help against them.

venice
02-23-2010, 05:17 AM
I guess the problem with Guttural Response - as it is with Aura of Silence - is that itīs far too situational to be viable. Against counter decks Vexing Shusher is far better, since itīs:

a) a creature, so you can survival for it
b) uncounterable, thus opponent getīs under pressure to deal with it or his entire game plan will fizzle
c) protectable by MoR, which is a crazy combination against control
d) it also helps against every deck packing Chalice of the Void, which is a very crucial point in my opinion

Besides that I agree, that Guttural Response does not help against NO/Pro and Iona. And against ANT if you did not manage to counter Mystical Tutor they can still go for Wipe Away...which is most likely be the best choice against the deck since it can neglect MoR.

However, I totally agree to you about cutting Choke from the SB. It does not enough in the current metagame full of Noble Hierarch. Also every Bant deck will play at least one Forest, Plains and 7-8 fetchlands... so itīs not that hard to play around choke - not to mention Qasali Pridemage to get rid of it entirely.

soiber2000
02-23-2010, 06:33 PM
Yes, you are wright. Vexing shusher is a good creature for SB, and it is true that protecting him MoR is a good play. I was thinking in the problem with progenitus and it has few solutions. Circle of protection red or green could be a choice or even wing shards which is almost uncounterable, but none of these fits the deck. The best answer to Natural order is 4 Gaddock teeg, but survival bant without NO is a pain and maybe a good boarding plan would be 3 Krosan, 2 path to exile, +3 other cards that I don't know.

venice
02-24-2010, 05:58 AM
Natural Order.dec is a MatchUp that is very dependent on how the game developes. If we manage to get out an early Teeg, or even better MoR+Teeg, then things are really looking good for us. Another good way of winning is trying too slow them down as long as possible via Wasteland or plowing their early creatures; an early Jitte is also nice and can sometimes even win the race.
If however Natural Order resolves, it means our only outs are recurring Spore Frog (which requires either active Survival on board or Genesis already in graveyard) or having enough pressure on the board already so we can win the race....otherwise we just loose.

Against Bant-Survival I would sideboard Grips, Shusher, Frog and GraveHate such as Faerie Macabre. Frog gives us an extra out to a resolved Iona naming white and can buy some time or even stall the game until our board position exceeds theirs. And if we somehow manage to resolve KotR things are looking also nice, since Bant-Survival normally canīt handle Karakas, itīs a big beater and sometimes will just screw them via Wateland. But I agree that the MatchUp is pretty even and also draw dependend. The downside is: they are likely to find their Survival faster than we do because of BS + Ponder. Plus they can drop theirs without fearing countermagic while we have to hope for it getting into play.
The upside however is our thread-density. There are just so many cards in our deck they donīt want to see, that itīs not that hard to bait counters and then catch a moment to drop Survival, since they canīt counter everything. If we manage to resolve MoR, Jitte (which is a HUGE pain in the ass for Bant-Survi! ^^) or KotR then things are looking quite good.
I would be careful in using Path to Exile though, because Bant-Survival is quite mana-hungry and giving them extra basic lands is really not what we wanna do. ;)

Philipp2293
02-24-2010, 03:23 PM
So, I piloted this deck to a 3-0-1 finish today in a smaller tournament, a short report (in german) can be read here: http://www.mtg-forum.de/thread-legacy-spieleraum-wien-62882.html?gopid=549092

I played almost Taos List, with the singleton Gaddock Teeg switched with 1 Finks from the SB. I was really happy with the way the deck works, but I think maybe the Scryb Ranger should be in this, as you are almosted never unhappy to draw randomly into it, with 12 creatures which really profit from it's ability (Knight,Mom,Hierarch). Also having an evasive attacker for jitte and the ability to attack and block with Jitte with zero mana investment seems important.

Tao
02-24-2010, 04:07 PM
Nice finish, and once again beating ANT with the Mom / Teag Combo.

I think I agree with you cutting the singleton Teeg on a second thought. I rarely Survivaled for it and I also noticed that I also nearly never survivaled for Eternal Witness. Making Iona the the 1-off for every situation and Squee is for card advantage seems like a very straight-forward idea. So why not cut Teeg and Witness to get 2 more Pridemages?
This would also play right into our Bant (both Bant Survival and NO-Countertop) matchup because I found a good way to beat them is early pressure, especially when combined with Wasteland.

Basically I went to playing 4 of each, even Wasteland and Horizon Canopy, moved Elspeth and Teeg to the SB and it feels really good in almost every matchup. Canopy is truly awesome, in most matchups I don't care much about life loss and playing with 4 Canopies and 4 Wastelands I nearly never feel flooded with 22 lands, they also pump KotR. What do you think about this?

List (Edited: +1 Misty Rainforest, -1 Finks)

// Lands
4 [U] Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [7E] Forest (2)
1 [MI] Plains (3)
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [FUT] Horizon Canopy

// Creatures
4 [FNM] Mother of Runes
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers

// Spells
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

For the Sideboard I think that Aura of Silence might indeed be better than Grip but it is very close. Enchantress was very popular recently and a quick Aura is an absolute beating against them. I also upped to 2 Enlightened Tutors. Tutoring for Canonist or Thorn of Amethyst helps in the Combo matchup a lot. But the best use is against Dredge, it ups the amount of Yard hate and it gets both Tormods Crypt and Wheel of Sun and Moon, so if they are about to set up you can get a Wheel to force them to have Chain of Vapor. And if they already have a big yard you can wreck them with Crypt.

Philipp2293
02-24-2010, 04:45 PM
I think the Manabase works out great, I think -1 Basic Forest +1 Canopy OR wasteland should be ok , but I'm not so sure about cutting Fetchlands. 7 feels good, as I never got into problems to establish a stable manabase.Will test the 4/4 version though.

4 Kitchen Finks and 4 Pridemage somehow feel a bit like overkill for me, especially when you cut Elspeth for them. 2 Elspeths were exactly right, and I was never unhappy to see her, and a resolved Elspeth usually improved the gamestate drastically for me.

I think 3/3 Finks/Pridemage would probably be right, I'm pretty sure I want to up my Pridemage count by 1, as 2 sometimes felt a little low. My only use of Witness actually was to get one Pridemage back from the grave.

Btw, have you already tried Stoneforge Mystic? I'm running 2 Jitte/1 Mystic, works out fine so far.

Could you also post your actual sideboard?

Tao
02-24-2010, 05:14 PM
I have only played a couple of test games with the posted list, but overall I think the path is right. I think I would feel most comfortable with 4 Wastes, 4 Canopies and 7 Fetchies. 23 lands seems too much, but maybe it is right, so that one can be very active with Wastes, KotR and Canopies. Then it would be -1 Finks, +1 Fetchland. Then my SB would look something like this:

SB: 2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 Aura of Silence / Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist

Dack
02-25-2010, 03:31 PM
Hi all,
I was just wondering, in what a GW Survival version is better than, like, a GBW one with discards, deeds, shriekmaw ? Or even than the old school RG ones ? Stability maybe ?

By the way I tested a GW version and like survival.decs I really loved it, but why not adding B to the list ?

Philipp2293
02-25-2010, 03:59 PM
The way I see it: Black brings discard for the combo MU and helps to push through Survival against the counterspells. By dropping black, you are weakening the combo MUs, but it creates space the run more maindeck bombs, like Elspeth, Jitte, Knights (which, with wastelands and canopies, can easily outgrow Goyfs), which makes your Survival-less play stronger. Also the manabase is really, really stable.

Dack
02-25-2010, 04:21 PM
I must admit that I really like the stability of the manabase, that allows the 4 Wastelands.
I also love the Mother of Runes that is a solid alternative to Shriekmaw/Big game hunter.

For the weakening of combo MUs, does the Canonist SB help though ? What are the other solutions ?

Philipp2293
02-25-2010, 05:38 PM
Teeg, Canonist, 1 Enlightened Tutor (2 in Taos current list), eventually 1 Thorn of Amethyst if you run it......

Pretty much the only way to beat combo is to go T1 Mother of Runes, T2 Teeg/Canonist and then kill them before they get multiple bounce spells. Worked for me at the last tournament.

Thor
02-26-2010, 08:48 AM
. I rarely Survivaled for it and I also noticed that I also nearly never survivaled for Eternal Witness.



I haven't picked up this version yet, but in 3-4 color survival EWitness is almost always my 1st tutor target against things w/ enchantment removal main, and certainly game two when I know they brought in KGrip. Just wondering how you play this situation.

Tao
02-26-2010, 11:09 AM
@Dack
GW Vs. B-Splash:
First of all: With a splash for Black the Combo matchup is still very bad. For example in the famous "Top 50 Legacy decks" they analysed the resuts of the two SCG tournaments. The Survival reference list played 4 Thoughtseize and 3 Therapies Main and 3 Teegs in the Sideboard and ANT still went to a clear 5-0 performance vs. Survival. So the Combo matchup is still atrocious, even if you play Discard. If you want to have a good chance against ANT, just don't play Survival. Every deck has bad matchups and there is not much you can change about it.

The deck could really take good use of Shriekmaw, Fleshbag Marauder and 3-4 Thoughtseizes though. However, the advantages of being two-coloured are bigger in this list (not in more controllish attempts): Being only GW allows to play Wasteland and Canopy and still have a better Mana Base than 3-coloured lists. The deck lives by its consistence: rarely Mulligan, rarely be colourscrewed, rarely miss the curve.

GW vs. RGSA: White offers Swords, Pridemage, Mother of Runes, Kinight of the Reliquary and the Iona-Combo. Red offers ... Magus of the Moon and Flametongue Kavu. Not even close.

@Thor:
Against every deck that potentially brings in Krosan Grip I bring in Elspeths (+ whatever else is good against them). I try to rely not much on Survival and just play GW-Beatdown and see Survival as a great bonus to that plan should it stick. If they want to destroy Survival, I'll have transformed a Hierarch into a KotR and just move on, no big deal. By only playing 1 Witness, 1 Teeg, 1 Genesis and 1 Scryb Ranger you are already down 1 full playset of other cards (or you play random splits play like 3 Pridemage, 2 Finks, 3 Mother of Runes). Witness is neat in some situations but after playing like 25 games without even ONCE tutoring for it I doubt that it is needed, especially considering how full the 3-Mana-Slot already is with KotR and Finks. Cutting Witness might seem radical, but I think it is the correct decision. By worrying too much about what the opponent might do and what 1-off you could Survival for to stop that you lose the general focus of the deck, which is being a very solid, very cost efficient Beatdown deck backed up by Wasteland and Survival + Iona/Squee.

Thor
02-26-2010, 11:57 AM
That makes sense your list is much less reliant on survival than the lists i normally play. As for your black splash argument I agree that combo is a terrible match up and i usually don't have any board cards for it(my meta is light on combo anyway). TSize and Therapy usually either help push through a survival or protect your guys if you don't draw SOTF and go the midrange beats route, but you have much higher "real" threat count than other list so I can see why you don't need them. I plan on testing this some this weekend it seems like it would be fun to play. This may not be right, but I always feel wierd when my guys don't have haste what are your thoughts on a 1 Taiga Anger splash?

Tao
02-26-2010, 02:33 PM
Just imagine attacking with a hasty Iona, that's the definition of overkill. Though I must admit, hasty MoR or KotR sound sexy. But still, drawing into Taiga or Anger is really bad. You'll get Survival online in only half of your games anyway, because you don't always draw it and it also tends to get FoWed, Spell Snared or Thoughtseized and in all these games not drawing cards like Anger helps a lot.

I think the list I posted above is pretty good. Just be confident in the decks ability to curve, use Wastelands aggressively (especially with KotR) and don't overreact if you lose to good draws from your opponent.

venice
03-02-2010, 09:58 AM
After returning from GP Madrid, I just want to post the result of the weekend. Day 1 I finished 6-3, only missing Day 2 because I lost the last round. I played against:

Round 1: Bye
Round 2: Bye
Round 3: Bye
Round 4: Survival Elves with NO/Pro (Loss)
Round 5: Zoo (Loss - I had to take 4 Mulligans in 3 Games... :( )
Round 6: BGW Rock (Win)
Round 7: Zoo (Win)
Round 8: Berserk Stompy (Win)
Round 9: Mono Red (Loss)

The losses were very frustrating since all of them were due to bad luck - either me drawing nothing relevant after multiple mulligans or my opponents just going nuts.... but well, thatīs Magic...
Nevertheless it was very cool playing the largest Magic tournament so far and it was HUGE fun! Also, I won a small Legacy Sideevent on Day 2 earning me at least some Worldwake Booster packs! ;)

The whole weekend I played the following list:

// Mana
4 [u] Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [7E] Forest
1 [MI] Plains
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [US] Gaeaīs Cradle

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FNM] Mother of Runes
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
1 [PRO] Spore Frog
1 [VI] Quirion Ranger
1 [JDM] Genesis
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers

Removal and Engine
4 [u] Swords to Plowshares
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 1 [WW] Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre

crow_mw
03-02-2010, 10:51 AM
Congrats on your finish. I wonder if 'drawing nothing relevant' was partially caused by the number of utility singletons you run (8), or just landflood ?

venice
03-02-2010, 03:06 PM
Congrats on your finish. I wonder if 'drawing nothing relevant' was partially caused by the number of utility singletons you run (8), or just landflood ?

Thanks! Actually "drawing nothing relevant" caused landflood two times (during three games) against Mono Red Burn, which has been the important last game on day 1. Against Survival Elves my opponent drew the nuts both games while I had to take several mulligans. Nevertheless I would still have won the first game via Spore Frog loop despite him having Survival AND Progenitus in play if he didnīt have had Faerie Macabre already MB... :/ Against Zoo I also had to take Mulligans and thus lost the third game because I just couldnīt keep up with his pressure.

The singletons were actually never an issue, at worst they can still chump block and buy time... ;)

thorin_the_king
03-02-2010, 03:36 PM
I'm sorry if this is not an option in this deck, but maybe it will has a place. the new card spoiled in today's arcana:

Kozilek, Butcher of Truth :10:
Legendary Creature - Eldrazi (M)
When you cast Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, draw four cards.
Annilihator 4 (Whenever this creature attacks, defending player sacrifices four permanents.)
When Kozilek is put into a graveyard from anywhere, its owner shuffles his or her graveyard into his or her library.
12/12

as it's abbility is triggered we can play retainers and then discard him to sac retainers in response and put him into play. that will shuffle retainers in library, getting all our goodies again. as we don't play jotun grunt, this allows us to re-use all of our wastelands with KOTR, and it can be used in a defensive way if any player tries to remove our graveyard. and maybe is an option to win against decks that can lock us or be faster than us. sacrificing 4 permanents a turn with mom's protection would give us the victory in a few turns...

thoughts?

venice
03-02-2010, 04:17 PM
Seems worth thinking about! Although if he would find its way into the deck, I would reconsider a red splash for Anger... just to abuse its second ability even more. Testing will tell! ;)

Jaynel
03-02-2010, 04:30 PM
I really don't think it's worth it. Iona is relatively easy to get into play, because you can chain her into Retainers at end of turn, then untap and bring her back. Getting this guy into play requires an additional creature and an additional green mana during your precombat main phase, and he just sits there for a turn before doing anything. Really seems win more.

I guess the question you have to ask is: Does this replace Iona? If no, you then have to ask yourself if you want ANOTHER blank in the deck that depends on Survival.

conboy31
03-02-2010, 04:42 PM
I agree on that, Anger is what would put this beast over the top. Waiting a turn might be a problem unless a mother is online to protect her child. With no anger/mountains Iona seems better. I don't know if a build could be made that has both. Unless there was inherent deck synergy that allowed for managing the dead cards better. I am not sure what that build would look like.

thorin_the_king
03-02-2010, 05:18 PM
I'm not claiming to play it instead of iona but along with her. haste would be lovely, but i think it will be ok without it. i see him as another loyal target, as a way to reuse loyal , wastelands, anything in our deck, and as defense on getting our yard crypted away.sure iona will be better in the early game, but what if we can only play retainers in mid late game? iona maybe won't win us the race, but this "little" eldrazi will make them smokestack x4 each turn. that's a good thing for example against enchantress or landstill

Jaynel
03-03-2010, 09:14 AM
I'm not claiming to play it instead of iona but along with her. haste would be lovely, but i think it will be ok without it. i see him as another loyal target, as a way to reuse loyal , wastelands, anything in our deck, and as defense on getting our yard crypted away.sure iona will be better in the early game, but what if we can only play retainers in mid late game? iona maybe won't win us the race, but this "little" eldrazi will make them smokestack x4 each turn. that's a good thing for example against enchantress or landstill

Iona on white already beats both of those decks (Enchantress and Landstill). I remain unconvinced about Kozilek being even close to playable.

MattH
03-03-2010, 12:44 PM
Kozilek seems like a step backwards - Survival was plagued for years by having cute combos that were too terrible without survival. Iona/Retainers finally gave survival a combo that was powerful and cheap enough to threaten 'game over' if you get to untap with survival, while being compact enough not to clog up the deck. That's the best innovation for the archetype in YEARS, so unless the latest cute trick is better than that, I think we should look elsewhere.

Some other Eldrazi might be it, but I don't think Kozilek is going anywhere.

Philipp2293
03-03-2010, 06:29 PM
So, today another time piloting this deck, list the same like the last time -forest -fetch - eternal witness -kitchen finks, +wasteland + horizon canopy + quasali pridemage + scryb ranger.

Went 3-1-0 today, making 3rd place, MUs were 1 Madness (2:0), 2 Merfolk (2:0, 2:1) and ANT (1:2). Very happy with the way the deck performs so far, it just sucks that I always manage to get paired against the combo player. Never missed Eternal Witness today, I think the deck runs fine without it. Sorry I'm too lazy to write a report.

crow_mw
03-03-2010, 07:04 PM
Some other Eldrazi might be it, but I don't think Kozilek is going anywhere.

Hopefully some CIP / sac board sweep, even symetrical, to side in instead of iona vs folks, gobbs, zoo and other zergs...

Tao
03-04-2010, 01:15 PM
I am still of the opinion that the question should not be, what 1-offs you can play, but what 1-offs you can afford to cut to make the draws as solid as possible. That 10 Mana Eldrazi falls certainly into the category of a card that is not needed.

conboy31
03-08-2010, 12:10 AM
Brought the deck to a 46ish person legacy event today. Because of my work schedule I rarely ever get to play in tournaments.

I went:
2-0 vs. quasi combo Green/white elves. Had some budget concerns and it showed. Nice pilot thought.
1-2 vs. White stax. I got deck checked and did not put down my 1 Finks in the SB. Crushed him g2 on the play with no boarding. Lost to chalice at 2 and chalice at 3 fairly quickly. I had a survival down the turn before the 2 came. So I was able to get most of my 1 drops and make a game of it once Humility hit play.
1-1 vs. Blue, White, red Landstill. Won game 1 fairly fast and game 2 drug on forever. I might have been better off scooping and going to g3 but I had a brick ton of answers left in my deck (and 9 mana to hardcast Iona!). But they never came. Did not start g3.

At this point it was looking a tad bleak. I then won out.

2-0 vs. White stax. Similar build to my round 2 opponent. Teeg was great.
2-1 vs. Madrids 75 clone reanimator winners list. Got rocked g1. That seems un-winnable. Got there in 2 and 3.
2-1 vs. RGb aggro loam w/no wishes or ddreams.

Snuck in at 8th place. Played vs. a Ugb Fae list with Goyf, Sprite, Cloud of Fairy, Standstill, BitterBlossom, Jittte, among other things. Managed to win 2-0.
Made to the top 4 and we decided to prize split as the tournament started like 80min late. Got a decent condition USea and 20$.

Things of note:
Iona lock g1/3 vs. Aggro Loam.
Iona lock g1/2 vs. Ubg Fae
Did not get a single counter on my 2 jittes.
Never drew or shocked off my 1 Sword of Fire/Ice

The other top 4 was:
Carbon copy? of Madrids Reanimator
Bant fish w/countertop?
Gwb rockish home brew

venice
03-08-2010, 02:57 AM
Gratz on your finish! Sword of Fire and Ice seems interesting. Did you combine it with Stoneforge Mystic? Iīm quite interested in your list.

Waikiki
03-08-2010, 03:32 AM
Hey guys, did any of you went to madrid? what where the matchups etc?

Valdez
03-08-2010, 04:04 AM
I went yesterday 4-1 with this pile, on a local tourney:

// Lands
3 Wasteland
3 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Forest
1 Plains

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Eternal Witness
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Gaddock Teeg

// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Spore Frog [actually i forgot my frog @ home and added a CoP: Red]
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Path to Exile
SB: 2 Choke

I'm still not sure 'bout the Tutors I liked 'em, but my games were all like: "Mullligan into screw - loss or SotF - win" and I doubt, if they will be such good in a more competitive meta.

R1: Reanimator 1-2 | g1: I screw myself and him with double Wasteland, he topdecks the single Ritual, g2: Crypt + Faerie + Genesis, g3: I keep Forest, E-Tutor, Hierarch, SotF, Goyf and Squee, he thoughtseizes me... -.-
R2: Bye
R3: Goyfsligh 2-1 |g1: Mulligan to 6, keeping double Wasteland, wasting him twice, but he goes flood and beats me with Hellspark Elementals, g2: SotF into Finks, Finks, Finks, g3: Mother, Mother, Tutor -> CoP: Red, SotF into Iona on green - just because I could.
R4: MBC | g1: SotF -> Iona -> win, g2: I keep the 2 Land, but instead of Lands I topdeck 3 Goyfs and start to play Lhurgoyf Tribal, he decides to play Edict Tribal, so i need to topdeck Tutor -> SotF -> Iona ->...
R5: 4c Bant Sur feat. r for Spout| g1: Mulligan into Oblivion, g2: we boath get SotF online, but he throws it away.
g3: I resolve SotF and win the Game.

Btw. I haven't seen one Knight during the whole Tourney... 8[

venice
03-08-2010, 08:47 AM
Hey guys, did any of you went to madrid? what where the matchups etc?

I was there and finished 6-3 day 1. My matchups can be found on page 6 of this thread.

@Valdez: Gratz to you also! One thing that catches my eye is the lack of Genesis in your list. Without it, Spore Frog seems like an awkward choice! Or did you just cut it, because you actually didnīt run the Frog for this tournament?

conboy31
03-08-2010, 12:32 PM
Gratz on your finish! Sword of Fire and Ice seems interesting. Did you combine it with Stoneforge Mystic? Iīm quite interested in your list.
I had tried Stoneforge some and it was a tossup between it making the cut. For this tournament it was not included.

My SB was:
3 Tormod's Crypt (sb 3 of them vs the reanimator, then a few vs. loam)
1 Runed Halo (sb vs reanimator and loam)
1 Faerie Macabre (sb vs both of the white stacks I think, then reanimator, and loam)
1 Harmonic Sliver (sb vs both white stacks)
1 Kitchen Finks (I do not think this was ever brought in, never played zoo or goblins)
3 Krosan Grips (all 3 for white stacks, and at least 1 vs landstill...maybe 2 or 3. I knew he played Humility which hosed the Quasali/sliver options)
1 Gaddock Teeg (vs stacks and landstill)
1 Genesis (vs elves, landstill, reanimator, loam, fae)
1 choke (vs landstill, reanimator, fae)
1 Spore frog (vs elves, reaniamtor, loam, fae)
1 Ethersworn Cannonist (vs elves)

MB

4 Forest
1 Plains
4 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
----
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
----
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
3 Quasali Pridemage
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eternal Witness
1 Squee
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

I don't think I would follow the trend of dropping Eternal Witness. The versatility of A) grabbing back a wasteland in attempt to hose/prune a color, B) get back a swords as the deck only runs 4 targeted and 0 mass removal, C) a counterspelled Jitte and Survival.
Wasteland/stifle was not too much of a deal. I think I could stretch to 1 or possible 2 more Horizon Canopy. That 1 extra card boost can be huge. Topdecking a huge card g3 vs. reanimator (wasteland, he had 1 land: usea) and g2 vs Fae (KotR)
The other upsides of the event was a foil Thopter Foundry for $3.21 and 2 foil nature's claim for $1.07

From what I saw there was only me as a survival player out of the 45ish players.

soiber2000
03-08-2010, 06:22 PM
Hey guys, did any of you went to madrid? what where the matchups etc?

I went to madrid with not so good results. I was a bit disappointed with the deck, not having a decent hand in the entire tournament, and having very bad topdecks such as squee, iona or loyal in every single game.

My GP was like this:

1- bye
2- bye
3- bye
4- Countertop bant with jace and vedalken shackles. 0-2. All my qasalis and grips weren't enough to destory counterbalance, relics and shackles. I didn't see a single survival and all my threats were well answered by swords, jace or shackles.
5- NOBant. 0-2. Turn three progenitus in both games. Very disappointing. Gaddock came just a turn late, and I drew squee and iona (with no survival).
6- Elves with NO. 2-0. Good hand in game 1 and iona on green just killing key elves such as champion. Game 2 survival second turn and gaddock third, just before iona came to finish the round.
7- Zoo. 2-1. Zoo is always dificult for me I think it is 50%. I just won the two games with the agro mode, because I didn't see survival again.
8- Zoo with landfall (but a strange build with fling). 1-2. Game 1 I mulligan to 5 and he beats me turn 3 for 12-15 damage...Very bad draws and no survival and no finks. Game 2 I win with the agro route, and game 3 is similar with the difference that my reliquary was exiled and then he attacked me for 7 damage and +7 due to fling.
9- Drop

That said, I have a good feeling about the deck, just having a very bad matchup against ANT and slightly unfavorable against countertop. All the rest are decent or favorable matchups.

Tao
03-09-2010, 02:00 PM
So we have a Top4 split in a 46 man tourney, 4 more 3-1 and 4-1 performances, but also 2 mediocre Madrid performances, probably 3 if Snief also played GW there (he didn't do to well there, too, but I don't know what he played). Too bad that the deciding losses in Madrid there were against Zoo and Mono Red Burn. I don't think Zoo is only even, I think it is clearly positive, around 60% in out favor. And against Burn the matchup is even better, with the fast creatures plus Finks or Swords on our big guys we can manage to stall and either Iona or Jitte will win the game as soon as they get online.

Countertop matchup: What I found to be most efficient against Countertop is curvy pressure, especially in combination with Wastelands. This matchup is the main reason why I went up to 4 Wastelands and 4 Pridemages.

Land Count: With the 23 land / 4 Canopy / 4 Wasteland setup I hardly ever mulligan and ensure that Stifle / Wasteland does not ruin the day. But thanks to the 8 lands that can be sacced for a good effect it is virtually somehow like 15 lands if needed, so flood also gets unlikely. I feel very good about that setup, it allows to use Wastelands and to activate KotR without regrets.

Clone: Shugyosha wrote an article about GP madrid and he played 2 Clones in his Sideboard as his tech. That card sound really great as it deals with the Progenitus problem as well as with opposing Ionas, gets around Counterbalance and is a great card against the GP winner Reanimator. The only problem is the Tropical Island it requires to play but it might be worth it because it fills a hole in the deck's strategy that can't be filled with white or green cards. Fortunately Hierarch already makes Blue so 1 Tropical is clearly enough to support it, also because all the decks it would come in against (Dream Halls, Reanimator, NO decks) usually never play Wastelands.

Tormod's Crypt: With the rise of Reanimator this should be played over Ravenous Trap. With 2 Tutors we can play something like 2-3 Crypt, 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon, 1 Faerie Macabre as a good hate package against Dredge and Reanmator post board.

Karakas: Now with Reanimator Iona is probably popular enough to justify its inclusion. @Venice: How did the Gaea's Cradle play out?

Stoneforge Mystic: I think the extra Mana he costs to get Jitte makes him a bit too bad compared to just playing an addional Jitte. We should always have a creature anyway so why pay 2 extra Mana for a Squire? Usually "pay 4, play and equip Jitte, attack" is what Jitte should do and what makes it great but that play does not work with the Mystic.

Snief
03-09-2010, 03:26 PM
Yes, I played this deck in Madrid and dropped at 3-3 (with 3 byes starting). I never had a worse day in my magic history: Round4 my opponent leads with Taiga, Nacatl and obv Iīm happy facing a good matchup. I lose 0-2, both games not finding a third mana, the second game with 3 Kitchen Finks rotting at my hand. Thatīs the first time I lost vs Zoo with my current build, so it hurts twice. Round5 and 6 I am paired against Combo which isnīt a good matchup at all, even after boarding (but I could have won vs ANT round 5, made a big mistake in not playing Gaddock). So I dropped with a very disappointing finish. Nonetheless I absolutely suggest to play Gaeaīs Cradle as a 1-of as it makes sick turns possible (T1 Land, Hierarch; T2 Cradle, 1-Drop, Knight/Survival, activate etc.). The already mentioned Karakas is also worth playing as it doesnīt hurt the manabase and wins vs. Iona. Imo I donīt think more than 22 lands are needed but then again I played vs Counterbalance only once. Another choice I suggest trying is 1 Bojuka Bog SB. Itīs really good against Reanimator, Dredge and even Canadian and its effect only can be stifled, not countered.
Iīll try to post better results again next time :smile:

venice
03-09-2010, 04:15 PM
On the "Cradle issue": I think itīs definitely worth its slot. The card can obv enable VERY broken plays if well timed. And combined with Survival itīs really crazy. Also it often enabled me to just hardcast Iona out of my hand. And since I play 30 creatures in my current build it will very rarely be a problem of having no creature in play for Cradle.

About Clone: I read the article and I guess the surprise factor is really cool. But imho Llawan, Cephalid Empress is WAY better as a card! Llawan handles Merfolk and Faeries on its own if no Vial is in play and with the inclusion of Karakas in our deck the outs against opposing Ionas are already very good. So IF I considered a blue splash I think Llawan has a much greater impact on the gamestate if well timed then Clone and does almost the same against Progenitus (with the exception that you even get a 2/3 beater).

On another issue: Two cards that I try to fit in the deck at the moment are: Stoneforge Mystic and Basilisk Collar. After playing Standard at National Qualifiers this weekend I really came to acknowledge both cards and think they would also fit well in here! Stoneforge Mystic gives cardadvantage (obv) and is a very nice two-drop and Basilisk Collar is just HUGE! I mean the possibilty of adding lifelink AND deathtouch to e.g. Tarmogoyf or KotR(!) seems too tempting to me not to try it. Also BC rises the possibility of winning the damage race against Progenitus (if you already have a big buddie in play). Iīm very curious about how that will work out for me!

Iīll post results as soon as I play it in tournament play.

Philipp2293
03-10-2010, 03:38 PM
So, again playing a smaller local tournament, making first place with 4-0-0, facing Mono Green Elves (2:0), Dredge (2:1), Canadian Thresh (2:0) and NoGoyf (2:0). The list I played was extremely streamlined with mostly full playsets, and Squee, Iona, Retainers and Stoneforge Mystic the only one-off creatures, and Survival/Swords/Jitte the only non-creatures. Only had to mulligan against Dredge (because I didn't want to keep a hand without GY-Hate). A short report in german is available at:

http://www.mtg-forum.de/thread-legacy-im-spieleraum-wien-62882.html?pid=553826&#entry553826 (scroll down to the latest report).

One Issue: Is a 2/1 Split between Jitte/Mystic the way to go, or are 3 Jitte better. Sometimes I feel that when I play the Mystic (which replaces 1 Jitte in my build), the Jitte would have been the better draw/play, cause I could have equipped one turn earlier.

venice
03-11-2010, 05:05 AM
One Issue: Is a 2/1 Split between Jitte/Mystic the way to go, or are 3 Jitte better. Sometimes I feel that when I play the Mystic (which replaces 1 Jitte in my build), the Jitte would have been the better draw/play, cause I could have equipped one turn earlier.

First off, gratz to you for winning again with the deck!

As for Stoneforge Mystic: I guess if your only equipment is Umezawaīs Jitte, another copy is certainly better if you just "draw into it" (for the reason you already stated). However, with Survival in play I like the fact, that Jitte is now tutorable if you go for the Mystic.
And like I mentioned before, I would play a split of Jitte and Basilisk Collar (maybe even Sword of Fire and Ice) to abuse Stoneforge Mystic much more through the increased flexibility it then offers.

Philipp2293
03-11-2010, 06:29 AM
The issue is, in my meta, there is one UW Tempo/No Goyf deck I always face and also some merfolk, where Jitte is important to battle their Jittes. Jitte being tutorable with Survival is nice, but also slow, and in most matches, after trying the Iona-route, I just chain Goyfs and huge Knights before trying to get Jitte.

conboy31
03-12-2010, 03:05 AM
How would you guys sideboard against a known Ad Naseum storm list, such as Saito's. http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpmad10/welcome#16
I was playing around with the matchup some tonight trying to figure out what is optimal. Using my list from the last page these were my observations:

G1 the matchup is almost always a loss unless I know they are playing storm and can find 1 of my 2 teegs. Keeping decent hands against unknown opponents are often irrelevant vs. storm.

For G2 I noticed that it is crucial to hit creatures on t1, t2 and t3 or something like t1, survival, t3. However, each creature beyond those in your hand that you can play are essentially dead cards. So it is important to have enough creatures left in the deck to curve out and pitch to survival, the deck doesn't seem to need as many as it often has g1.
Squee and Eternal Witness are often too slow and can be sided out. The squee CA is moot because survival only needs to be used 1 or 2 times (depending if a mother is online -> teeg or Teeg -> canonist -> mother or something like that).

For sideboarding I ended up trying this, which may be wrong as my results were not that strong.
+ 3 tormods crypts
+ 1 runed halo
+ 1 fairie macabre
+ 1 kitchen finks
+ 1 ethersworn cannonist
+ 1 gaddock teeg
+ 1 choke
- 3 swords to plowshares
- 3 knight of the reliquary
- 1 sword of fire and ice
- 1 squee
- 1 eternal witness
I took out 5 three drops for 3 three drops that play for free, gain 2 life immediately, or keep lands tapped down. I found the knights were simply to slow because they do nothing on the turn they come in. That WORST case the choke comes online t3 and keeps a usea tapped down. The gy hate might seem excessive, but playing for free vs. extra creatures sitting in the hand while the mana is tapped is worse. The 1 swords seems bad and it generally is, but the off chance of eating your goyf for 4 life can win a game on a rare occurrence.

What tips and SB strategies to other GW survival players use?

venice
03-12-2010, 10:03 AM
Against ANT I will usually board like this:

+1 Faerie Macabre
+2 Tormodīs Crypt
+1 Bojuka Bog
+3 Gaddock Teeg (I play one already MB)
+2 Ethersworn Canonist

-1 Genesis
-1 Spore Frog
-4 Swords to Plowshares
-2 Jitte
-1 Eternal Witness

With that configuration I get 6 "hate-bears" I can drop turn 2. An opening hand without one of these is an auto mulligan for me against ANT. Gravehate is obv good against IGG but can also slow them down by preventing early threshhold.
Besides that itīs still VERY hard to win. No matter how many SB cards one may bring in.... You just have to hope that your hatecards stuck on board or buy enough time to establish Iona...

conboy31
03-12-2010, 12:24 PM
Against ANT I will usually board like this:

+1 Faerie Macabre
+2 Tormodīs Crypt
+1 Bojuka Bog
+3 Gaddock Teeg (I play one already MB)
+2 Ethersworn Canonist

-1 Genesis
-1 Spore Frog
-4 Swords to Plowshares
-2 Jitte
-1 Eternal Witness

With that configuration I get 6 "hate-bears" I can drop turn 2. An opening hand without one of these is an auto mulligan for me against ANT. Gravehate is obv good against IGG but can also slow them down by preventing early threshhold.
Besides that itīs still VERY hard to win. No matter how many SB cards one may bring in.... You just have to hope that your hatecards stuck on board or buy enough time to establish Iona...

Looking at your list I would also bring in 1 quasali pridemage for 1 knight of the reliquary (or something else if you want them in vs. ant) The reason is that quasali with 1 mana prevents the Ant player from going LED, LED, infernal tutor -> X (Ad Naseum/igg) by being able to blow up the first LED before the 2nd resolves. This may seem somewhat situational, but every little bit of these potential plays help. Thanks for posting your SB interaction.

venice
03-13-2010, 10:21 AM
Looking at your list I would also bring in 1 quasali pridemage for 1 knight of the reliquary (or something else if you want them in vs. ant) The reason is that quasali with 1 mana prevents the Ant player from going LED, LED, infernal tutor -> X (Ad Naseum/igg) by being able to blow up the first LED before the 2nd resolves. This may seem somewhat situational, but every little bit of these potential plays help. Thanks for posting your SB interaction.

I guess the case will be rare indeed, since itīs still the ANT playerīs choice to make that play and Iīm not sure if he really would do this - given that situation you explained - but I totally agree to you that every potential play that could help vs. ANT should be taken into account, so it is probably the right call to board in the 3rd Pridemage aswell.

conboy31
03-13-2010, 10:38 AM
You are right that 99.9% ant will not walk into the pridemage. However it does cut off that line of play meaning we would get 1 more turn as they proably kill us next turn. The knight would sit there and not interact.

Tao
03-13-2010, 02:45 PM
The ANT will always be bad, even if you side in 10 cards. So I don't think that you should commit too much cards for that matchup. The 4th Finks and 1-2 Path to Exiles for aggressive decks are a much better investment for Sideboard slots in my opinion than too much Combo hate so I think you have it right with 1 Canonist and 1 Teeg. Despite the bad matchup it is of course important to know how you optimize your chances and your SB plan looks solid. So don't think that bad results against ANT come because you do something wrong.

For the Sideboard I still think Enlightened Tutor is the best choice. It improves the matchup against Dredge a lot because it so flexible. Either a quick 1-shot with Crypt that usually slows them down by ~ 2 turns or a permanent solution with Wheel of Sun and Moon that forces them to have a bounce spell. It is also very helpful against Combo of course, acting as additional Ethersworn Canonists. And if you play Aura of Silence you have a great Tutor target against Enchantress and Staxx (where you side out Mother of Runes anyway so you wont be hurt too much by Chalice #1). Aura of Silence is also very solid against ANT because it slows down their Mana Artifacts which is especially important in their Combo turn (if you should ever get to cast it that is). So Enlightened Tutors increases the number of hate cards against a lot of decks without taking up too many slots.

Valdez
03-13-2010, 05:43 PM
@Valdez: Gratz to you also! One thing that catches my eye is the lack of Genesis in your list. Without it, Spore Frog seems like an awkward choice! Or did you just cut it, because you actually didnīt run the Frog for this tournament?
Sry, I forgot, that I've made this post. -.-
I played Genesis md instead of the Gaddock, forgot to change the list.

Countertop is curvy pressure, especially in combination with Wastelands.
signed + early beaters backed up with MotR, cuz they rarly have fast CBT and enough critters to stall the board.

Tao
03-19-2010, 02:33 PM
I just wanted to say that only through testing with other decks I realized that I was completely and utterly wrong about Stoneforge Mystic. That guy is awesome.

Philipp2293
03-20-2010, 05:07 AM
Really? For me it was rather the other way round, I started with Mystic, and then switched back to 3 Jittes, as I often wished the Mystic in my hand was a Jitte, cause then I would have been able to play, equip and swing in the same turn.

crow_mw
03-20-2010, 08:35 AM
Do you find him a good survival target, or he is just a better topdeck than Jitte?

Tao
03-20-2010, 09:32 AM
He is not a good Survival target, that's why I dismissed him without much thought. But he is a great card on his own. Currently I am trying a version with 3 Mystics (+ Jitte and 1 of each Swords) and it works good. They are giving the deck a second engine, so that the reliance on Survival decreases.

Philipp2293
03-20-2010, 11:00 AM
So what did you cut for the Mystics? I've been thinking about cutting down on Kitchen Finks, as I often do not really need them. (Zero Zoo in my Meta)

Waikiki
03-20-2010, 11:23 AM
I've been gaining interest in trying out this deck in merfolk heavy meta's

This is what I sleeved up and I would like to gain some advise on.

// Lands
3 [A] Savannah
3 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [ON] Plains (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ON] Forest (1)
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [UL] Mother of Runes

// Spells
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [IN] Dueling Grounds
SB: 1 [TE] Choke
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 [OD] Ground Seal
SB: 1 [SHM] Vexing Shusher

Philipp2293
03-20-2010, 12:15 PM
Looks good so far, but if you face a lot of Merfolk, I'd leave the Gaddock Teeg in the SB and instead run a 4th Kitchen Finks or a 2nd Jitte.

Tao
03-20-2010, 01:02 PM
@Philipp: It will be probably a mix of Finks and Pridemages. I also experiment a bit with Aether Vials, and it has been very good, especially against Countertop, but I couldn't come up with a satisfying list so far.

@Waikiki: In a Merfolk heavy Meta this is the best deck you can sleeve up atm. The best shot they have is Mana Denial so I see no reason to cut eges with the Mana Base. I personally prefer 23 lands, but 22 is okay, too. I would also play the 4th Canopy over the 4th Savannah. Canopies are awesome, they make flood so much easier to overcome while pumping your Knights.
3 Stoneforge Mystics with only 2 Equipments can get awkward if the game goes on and you don't have anymore Equipments to search up.

From your list, for such a Meta I would go

- 1 Stoneforge Mystic
+ 1 Horizon Canopy

Your sideboard looks very interesting, I guess Ground Seal is meant as a flexible answer against Loam, Reanimator and Dread Return, but don'T forget that it doesn't stop Bridge from below and Exhume, so you are probably better of with Faerie Macabre. I would go -1 Krosan Grip + 1Aura of Silence. I you run into Affinity, Staxx or Enchantress that card is the jackpot and against Countertop you can see it as a 3rd Grip that might fail. I like to have 2 Elspeths in my side against all kinds of control decks, especially those with Deed, but also Countertop and Landstill, but they are not absolutely nessecary.

Waikiki
03-20-2010, 01:19 PM
Yeah I also noticed ground seal wasn't as fun as I hoped it was.

Eatatjoes
03-20-2010, 05:09 PM
Its crazy how good this is against merfolk. I played about 15 games the other day against one of my buddies, and none of the games were even close. In 2 of the games, he even got the nutty lord draw, and he still couldnt handle my threats. I didnt know the matchup was that much in our favor, since the bant survival builds say that merfolk is one of there bad matchups. Just by dropping one color it made the deck stronger. Even tho its weak to combo, i still like this version better then the bant survival.

Valdez
03-20-2010, 06:13 PM
Why do you guys play Mystic > Tutor..?
ET searches for SotF, wich is far superior to Jitte most of the times and it gives you 2 more sb slots.
Mystic generates cardadvantage, but its clunky.

Don't get me wrong, Mystic is a great Card but I think its inferior to ET in this deck.

Tao
03-21-2010, 05:25 AM
Both are a bit clunky, E Tutor also delays SotF by a turn and a Mana. But that's a good point nonetheless, I guess tweaking out the perfect list is not easy. Also there is no reason to not play both.

Philipp2293
03-21-2010, 05:59 AM
Regarding the LoamPox (or T-21) MU, is there a better SB option than Karmic Justice? Along with 2 E. Tutors, that should sum up to a halfway decent SB package.

Tao
03-21-2010, 07:29 AM
I would not put SB cards for just one deck into the sideboard unless that deck is extremely popular (like Zoo, ANT, Countertop, Merfolk). If that deck is popular in your area, play addional Basic Lands and a Witness maindeck (to get basic lands back and post board Crypts) and an additional Crypt in the Sideboard, or a Ravenous Trap and you should be fine.

I would always side in all Finks (they eat Innocent Blood and Smallpox) and also every piece of yard hate (they rely a lot on their loam). That's usually already 5 slots so you can easily side out bad cards. Furthermore I would side in my 2 Elspeths (I seem to be the only one who plays them though). 4 Mana is a lot but eventually you have a good chance to get there, and then the tokens completely negate their strategy unless they have the Vindicate in hand. The first thing to side out is obviously Swords to Plowshares and also Jitte is not good against them. Sword of Fire/Ice or Light/Shadow might be okay, not likely to get them online but if you do they will win for sure.

So, depending on your version
- Swords to Plowshares
- Jitte
+ E Tutor
+ Yard Hate
+ Finks
+ Elspeth

Rigero
03-21-2010, 03:38 PM
Hi,

I' ve played on a small tournament today (only 17 players). I become the 3th place with 3-0-2. Two draws cause of time was realy bad, would become first place if i draw a third land in one game.

My List:

// Lands
3 [B] Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [REW] Wasteland
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
2 [MM] Plains
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
4 [ST] Forest
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 [REB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers
4 [FNM] Mother of Runes
3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
2 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [PY] Spore Frog
SB: 1 [JU] Genesis
SB: 2 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [IN] Dueling Grounds
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [FNM] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon


Testing Stoneforce Mystics, and an additional Sword of Light and Shadow. Was realy nice ALWAYS having a Jitte or a sword.

My Matchups today:

1 Round: BUr - Faeries 2-0; Sword of Light and Shadow and Knight > Bitterblossom :D
2 Round: Equipment Bant 1-1; It was a long match, and i' ve never seen any survival. At least it was a draw: : /
3 Round: Merfolk 2-0 Easy MU, it wasn't even close
4 Round: Eva Green 2-0 He coundn't handle all of my Threats and Knight was always bigger than any creature he played
5 Round: 4c New Jace 1-1: It was hard because he had 4 Maze of Ith Main and a lot of counters. The Third game i stand on 2 Lands, never seeing a third one. He was at 4 Life with 1 Maze and The Abyss. Because of the new Jace i never found a land again, so i coudn't play kitchenfinks, was a very close game, but he also cound't kill me in time.

After all i realy like the deck, and i like it even more every time i play it.

Valdez
03-22-2010, 06:32 AM
I've won a local tourney with 30 players yesterday, without winnig a single dice roll.

// Lands
3 Wasteland
3 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdnat catacombs
3 Horizon Canopy
5 Forest
1 Plains

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Eternal Witness
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Gaddock Teeg

// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Genesis
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Spore Frog
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 Path to Exile

Rd1: vs. Canadian.
G1: I keep 3 Forests, Savannah, Canopy, Goyf, Mother, Knight and SotF.
He starts wit Tropical, i play Mother on my 2nd turn, he topdecks the Fetchland for Volcanic -> F/I, I try Tarmogoyf, he has Snare, but his deck refuses to show him any of his green cards. So i feel free to start a liln subgame, since I've topdecked 4 fetchies in a row I crack the first one and he has Stifle, than I crack the 2nd one and he has Stifle, than i crack the 3rd one and he has Stifle, the 4rth resolves an i can smack the carp out of him with double Knight.

G2: I board -1 Teeg, -1 Retainers, -1 Iona. +1 Genesis + 1 Bog +1 Faerie
I keep the 3 land Hand with Goyf, Mother and Finks + x.
He applies some pressure with a early Mongoose and snares my Goyf.
I waste his Volcanic, resolve Mother and Finks and start going flood, while he is screwed on red, I manage to resolve a Knight.
Than he topdecks Fetchland, plays EE for 3, leaving himself tapped out. So I can resolve the topdecked SotF, discard Squee for Pridemage, attack with Knight, remove EE and win the whole thing.
2-0 | 1-0-0


Rd2: Cloudston Curio/wildgrowth Combo.
G1/2: I win twice with huge Knights, because I'am awsame and his deck is awful.
2-0 | 2-0-0


Rd3: Dragon Stompy:
G1: I keep Heath, Wasteland, Forest, SotF and some Critters, he Mulligans down to 5.
He leads with Tomb, rfg SSG, Song, CotV 1, 3 Sphere, waste Tomb, he is Caught under his own Sphere, I play my lands, survival for Iona, g2.

G2: -1 Teeg, -1 Mother, -1 Tutor (I am not sure if that was good, but i didn't make any thoughts how to board vs. DS an just thought that Tutor and Mother suck with CotV 1) +3 Grip.
He starts again with Tomb, SSG -> 3 Sphere, I waste his Tomb again, hes screwed again, I win.
2-0 | 3-0-0


Rd4: UW Tempo
G1: We trade Jitte vs. Jitte, he stalls teh board with Mother and stuff, but I manage to resolve SotF, and I have to discard Retainers for Squee, to find Mother to combat his.
He opens the door to the topdeckzone, drawing 2 StP for my 2 Mothers, 2 Avengers and a Mystic for another jitte.
Today I'am quite sure, that i could have played this better, still knowing exactly how, anyway, I lose this long game, without seeing any removal.

G2: -1 Teeg,-1retainers, -1 Iona, -1 Finks + 3 Path, +1 Genesis.
I start with Savannah Mother, than Forest, Hierarch, followed by a Wasteland and a Knight.
He assambles Mother, Vial, Wayfarer and seer.
I can resolve the Survival again, Searching for another Knight, but I get bustet by his Crypt and have to use use Genesis as Pseudosquee.
After I could beat him once with a 5/5 knight, he crowns it all with a Grunt eot, but thats not enough vs. 3 Knights an the Mother.
1-1 | 3-0-1


Rd5: Reanimator
G1: Iona completely steamrolls me.
G2: -3 finks, -1 Teeg, -1 Pridemage, -1 Mother, +3 cypt, +1Bog, +1Genesis, +1 Fae
He forces my crypt and resolves turn 3 Reanimate on Inkwell, wich sucks, if your opponent draws 3 Goyfs and a Mother, with 2 Mulligans, well... better be lucky etc. ...
G3: I keep Savannah, Canopy Fae, Hierarch and Kinight, followed by a Crypt drawn on Turn 1, how sad a fate.
2-1 | 4-0-1

Girs tribal rocks!

venice
03-22-2010, 06:33 AM
@Rigero:
Grats on your finish! I really like your list! Itīs quite similar to mine at the moment. Maze of Ith is such a great card to have maindeck, I even play a second copy in my SB, currently.
Interesting that you choose SoLaS over SoFaI as your third equipment. At the moment I play Jitte / Basilisk Collar and Sword of Fire and Ice as my equipments alongside two Mystics as well.

Unfortunately Iīm quite busy at the moment so I didnīt have time to attend a Legacy tournament since GP Madrid so I canīt post any tournament results yet and will most likely not be able to do so until the end of April.
Still, Iīm toying around with different lists at home and like I said before, Iīm really excited about the Mystic. However, one thing that concerns me is sacrificing maindeck answers to NO/Pro (mainly Genesis+Frog) to make room for Mystics+more equipment.

Besides that, why no Karakas in your list? I mean, itīs obviously great against Iona, allows for combat tricks with Gaddock and randomly bounces stuff like Rafiq, Marit Lage and Clique (if situation allows for that) and itīs tutorable with KotR. Also, have you tried out Gaeaīs Cradle? If not, I really urge you to try - even more in a list with lotīs of equipments the mana boost can be game changing sometimes and I wouldnīt wanna miss it any more.

@Valdez: Of course, props to you, also! ;)

Valdez
03-22-2010, 06:44 AM
Thx.
I've tested Karakas and it sucked, I've drawn it once randomly and it won cuz i could swing for 8, while he was on 3.
but you manage rarely to resolve a Knight before they resolve SotF and even if you get rid of Iona you still lose to SotF...
I also think, that 22 (mana producing) lands is the abolut minimum an I don't like screw the consistency of this deck for "cool things", but that may depend on the playstyle, cuz I use to play quite straight forward.

Rigero
03-22-2010, 07:13 AM
@Rigero:
Grats on your finish! I really like your list! Itīs quite similar to mine at the moment. Maze of Ith is such a great card to have maindeck, I even play a second copy in my SB, currently.
Interesting that you choose SoLaS over SoFaI as your third equipment. At the moment I play Jitte / Basilisk Collar and Sword of Fire and Ice as my equipments alongside two Mystics as well.


I chose SoLaS, because i think its bette to protect against White and black removel and many of the people here playing bant at the moment. Most of their creatures are also white, there are just not enough wich are blue (except merfolk where we dont need this sword cause its an good mu even without it). Burn also isn't a problem cause most of our beaters have equipt a toughness of 4 or higher, so no bolt range.

I was thinking about a collar too, but at least every time i played it in testgames i want a jitte for it ^^. But i#m thinking about 1-2 jitte and both swords, cause of the card draw of Sofai. Most of the times i win the topdeckchalanges cause of our high threat density in our deck. But drawing an additional card would be always nice ;)




Besides that, why no Karakas in your list? I mean, itīs obviously great against Iona, allows for combat tricks with Gaddock and randomly bounces stuff like Rafiq, Marit Lage and Clique (if situation allows for that) and itīs tutorable with KotR. Also, have you tried out Gaeaīs Cradle? If not, I really urge you to try - even more in a list with lotīs of equipments the mana boost can be game changing sometimes and I wouldnīt wanna miss it any more.



Hm, i don't know, i was thinking about it and at least i cannot remember any situations where i realy want karakas instead of a plains. Sure its nice against iona, but if iona resolves with no knight on board the one off doesn't help at all i think. Rafique is only good if ONE creatue is attacking, so maze do nearly the same work. I think one of the realy good things on the deck is that they cannot easyly screw you, because playing a lot of basics.

Gaea's cradle sounds nice. I' ll test it, but i'm afraid of starthands like: Maze, Cradle, noble, mother, goyf, Sotf, knight.

conboy31
03-23-2010, 09:30 PM
When Iona just isn't enough:

Emrakul, the Aeons Torn 15

Legendary Creature - Eldrazi
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn can't be countered.
When you cast Emrakul, take an extra turn after this one. (irrelevant)
Flying, protection from colored spells, Annihilator 6
When Emrakul is put into a graveyard from anywhere, its owner shuffles his or her graveyard into his or her library.
Illus. Mark Tedin 15/15

This guy is ridiculous and over the top. It is so big it feels like the B.F.M from the un-series.

The downside is that he is much harder to get into play vs. Iona. Iona is often EOT Squee -> Iona. -> retainers. Untap, return squee, play retainers, bring back Iona. Or can just sit there while you get to retainers or witness back retainers, etc, etc.
The Emrakul has to be put in the GY only when retainers is in play. The shuffle might have some corner cases and being welcome in attrition wars g1 vs. removal.dec

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103210&stc=1&d=1269384672

The plus side is that discard is part of the survival cost, so removal is not an issue/unable to disrupt the retainers sac to get the eldrazi to play.

f|i[p]
03-24-2010, 12:23 AM
I think when you want to make full use of the Emrakul you would definitely want some form of haste to make full use of its ability. Which would probably bring us to splash a color...specially since people seem to be favoring Diabolic edict type effects for creature control as of lately.

I still think Iona is enough to seal the deal, I don't think there's any need to complicate our win conditions further. (although I understand that winning with Erakul is cool and attacking with him is like a pseudo armageddon and wrath of god effect,but doesn't Iona win the game as well? There will be VERY VERY rare situations however that erakul might be better)

spirit of the wretch
03-24-2010, 07:24 AM
Ok, I'm preety sure I'm as bored as everybody browsing this thread of the constant "Hey, there's a new techy legend. Let's play it!"-posts. Nevertheless I think this particular monster is actually worth discussing.

//quick insertion: I've never played with the deck (although I intent to), so I might be terribly wrong. If that is the case, someone let me know =)
//

What's the big downside of this guy?
- If you have Survival out, you need an extra G and an additional creature in hand to get him into play (or an additional turn to get him with Squee). This isn't that big of a deal, if you topdeck Survival midgame: eot get Squee, pitch Squee for Retainers. Upkeep return Squee, pitch Squee for monster, cast Retainers, pitch monster and profit. It does make you vulnerable to sorcery speed enchantment hate, as you can't assemble the combo without a Survival in play.
- Contrary to Iona, he doesn't stop combo. Not even a little. The question is, how often do you find the angel in time to cripplle the combo player?
- He's harder to hardcast. This shouldn't be an issue though.

What's the advantage of this guy?
- He's even harder to kill than Iona. That's not going to be an issue, too.
- He actually impacts the gamestate, once he isn't sick. And big time. No matter how unfortunate your position is, if you untap with this guy, you pretty much can't lose. This might especially interesting in the Enchantress/Stax/Gobins/Aggro Loam-MU. Decks that are able to establish a very strong board position, so that the angle might not be enough. Again, the question is, how often do you find yourself in such a position?
- He's the better creature: He's bigger, it's harder to chumpblock him, his impact on the board is way more devastating, he's a random out against Painter =)

So, it ultimately boils down to this: Is the added utility of "Annihilator 6" woth the increased effort of cheating him into play.
Or to put it different: How often does your opponent kill your Survival the turn after you play it? And if they do it, are you still able to establish the combo that turn? And how often does Iona safe your ass against combo? How often doesn't the angle win, if you have her in play? And would the cthulhu have helped in that situation?
Can anyone who actually plays this deck answer these questions?

Valdez
03-24-2010, 08:18 AM
This deck sucks anyway vs combo and it doesn't make a big diference if you survival for Iona or teeg/cannonist + mother in the combo mu.
The first SotF activation post board should search for Witness anyway, to be save vs. Grip.

I would play Emrakul over Iona.

f|i[p]
03-24-2010, 08:29 AM
As for me, the fact that he takes an extra G and an extra creatures alraedy states that he does not fit the deck. It will simply make the deck more mana intensive... I see Iona as the creature who seals the win.

Annilihator 6 I think falls under the "danger of cool things notion". causing you an extra creature, extra G mana maybe even an extra turn makes it slower. It also does not immediately affect the board as it comes into play.

On a second note, Annihilator with anger might work.(but it will require a 3rd color) <--- ok I guess it won't work after all, I forgot that you shuffle your entire graveyard into your library when Emrakuls ability triggers.

venice
03-24-2010, 11:17 AM
Iīm not sure if sacrificing tempo is worth its mid-lategame annihilator effect (Eldrazi-guy doesnīt do anything before turn 5, which is horrible even against "slower" decks like Enchantress or Stax; whereas Iona can already hit the board turn 3 and "lock" opponent down). And considering that Legacy is quite a "fast format" I guess having the ability to "lock down" opponents on turn 3 is more important than having a late game "bomb".

Also, another downside that comes to mind is: if opponent stifles retainers ability, you "loose" your entire graveyard - and given you try to power out that Eldrazi guy asap, you will loose Squee in the process and thus be slow as hell in getting your engine going. It also sucks with KotR.

On the other hand, during lategame I would say that guy is clearly superior to Iona, since you will have enough mana anyway and with him one can break through any stalled position for sure; he even runs over a Progenitus (which is a real plus in playing this guy), is a nice out vs. painter indeed and if you ever get to hardcast him... yeah well... thatīd be real overkill though... ;)

Iīm really not sure about it, Iīll test it - but Iīll probably stick with Iona.

conboy31
03-24-2010, 11:45 AM
Iona is more streamlined. However, I will be curious to see if a Rofellos version of survival springs back up that abuses retainers/emrakul to the fullest.

PS, I too would get tired if everytime an eldrazi was posted everyone came here to talk about XYZ + Retainers, but emrakul had to be mentioned :wink:

venice
03-24-2010, 02:38 PM
Thinking about the new Eldrazi I was wondering if he would be affected by cards like Oblivion Ring or Sower of Temptation. Since these are no longer "spells" when they trigger I guess they can target "him", canīt they?

spirit of the wretch
03-24-2010, 02:41 PM
Thinking about the new Eldrazi I was wondering if he would be affected by cards like Oblivion Ring or Sower of Temptation. Since these are no longer "spells" when they trigger I guess they can target "him", canīt they?

I think so, just as it gets owned by Shriekmaw, Gilded Drake, Waterfront Bouncer and Karakas.

conboy31
03-24-2010, 10:00 PM
I see the use of maze of ith is picking up a little bit for GW survival. I was using it in Lands today and the player thought that maze no longer can give an attacking creature vigilance. So, just a reminder to those who are using maze, you can use maze to untap your own attacking creature AFTER damage has been done. Usually relevant with KotR or with Tarm when you have a mother to gang up on an opposing tarm, etc.

As for Emrakul, the current incarnation of GW survival does not allow for -Iona + Emrakul. As I expected the version that will run Emrakul in the future will probably have Rofellos and/or Veteran Explorers to moot point the extra mana requirements and speed. Too bad Recurring Nightmare is sorcery speed bound.

Valdez
03-25-2010, 05:27 AM
I'ver toyed a bit around with this tentacle-porn-monster and I have to dmit, that he is clunky as hell, but it didn't matter much most of the times.
Btw. I've used him a few times in the mirror to save my Squee from Marcabre.

In the end I think that Iona might be the better choice, but I'll make some testing to be sure.

venice
03-25-2010, 06:18 AM
I see the use of maze of ith is picking up a little bit for GW survival. I was using it in Lands today and the player thought that maze no longer can give an attacking creature vigilance. So, just a reminder to those who are using maze, you can use maze to untap your own attacking creature AFTER damage has been done. Usually relevant with KotR or with Tarm when you have a mother to gang up on an opposing tarm, etc.


Wow, I never even thought about that! That makes Maze even better than it already is! However, are you sure that this really works? I mean, is a creature which dealt damage already still considered "attacking"? And if so, when would be the exact point to use Maze then? Would be great if you could explain this a little more detailed! Thanks!

Valdez
03-25-2010, 07:09 AM
creatures are conciderd attacking until end of combat, afaik.

Rigero
03-25-2010, 07:25 AM
511. End of Combat Step
511.1. First, all “at end of combat” abilities trigger and go on the stack. (See rule 603, “Handling Triggered Abilities.”)
511.2. Second, the active player gets priority. Players may cast spells and activate abilities.
511.3. As soon as the end of combat step ends, all creatures and planeswalkers (including those that are phased out) are removed from combat. After the end of combat step ends, the combat phase is over and the postcombat main phase begins (see rule 505).

So you should be able to activate the maze after damage resolves, because removing them from combat is the last action and each player gets priority before.

And yes it's a nice tech to get pseudo vigilance :D

Tao
03-25-2010, 02:45 PM
As a 43 land player (kinda) I know them Maze tricks :p
It is commonly used in that deck to give Vigilance, to attack with a Bunch of lands into a big Goyf without losing a land or to untap a Factory and pump the other. So if you play with Maze you can of course apply these tricks here, too, attacking with Knight and also using it to fetch could be very useful.

On the Iona vs. Eldrazi dude thingy: I go with Iona. I think the advantages of Iona combined outclass the monstrosity.

The most important reason for me is the speed. Not only is Iona always a full turn faster, which is already a huge factor by itself, against decks that if they win they also win through a 15/15 blocker it is even 2 turns faster (you have to give them one turn in which you could have casted Iona and give them another turn to attack). Those decks are for example Dredge, Combo Elves and Enchantress.
The second reason is the vulnerability of the big monster. Like already pointed out it is bad against Sower of Temptation, Oblivion Ring and Shriekmaw. But especially against Landstill/Pox or other random White / Black control Iona is the best card because she prevents Wrath and Humility (Damnation/Pox/Edicts/Innocent Blood) while the Eldrazi does neither. Also if your opponent keeps you from attacking (Ghostly Prisons + Tabernacle effects, Ensnaring Bridge or Cryptic Command) Iona is much better.

And last but not least there is the general problem of needing an additional creature. This can be especially problematic against blue decks when you played creatures as bait to force Survival through or against Aggro when you needed to play creatures to stop the assault.

Kesta
03-25-2010, 04:05 PM
Totally agree with Tao! Iona cannot be replaced in this slot. It's too constraining to have Retainers in play before discarding The Monster. And for me is not event better on battlefield. Sure it's big, it's sexy, it rocks to have a 15/15 in play but i prefer 100 times to have an angel like Iona, if you look at the meta game you'll see that Iona shut off so many deck, and mostly any random deck.

Valdez
03-26-2010, 03:09 AM
Like already pointed out it is bad against Sower of Temptation, Oblivion Ring and Shriekmaw
Well I bet, that Iona gets owned by Sower and Shriekmaw too, as it is common to name white against Bant, Rock, BGW Sur (as long as they haven't SotF in Play) etc.

But especially against Landstill/Pox or other random White / Black control
I haven't seen LS and Pox on big Tourneys for ages on the first tables.

Also if your opponent keeps you from attacking (Ghostly Prisons + Tabernacle effects, Ensnaring Bridge or Cryptic Command) Iona is much better.
If you were able to resolve the "combo" youve got SotF anyway, sou you can use Pridemage to destroy any of those Artifacts/Enchantments.

And last but not least there is the general problem of needing an additional creature. This can be especially problematic against blue decks when you played creatures as bait to force Survival through or against Aggro when you needed to play creatures to stop the assault.
You would search for Finks in those situations anyway, to stabilize the board.

But as I already admitted the main downside of elmo is that he's clunky as hell.

dahcmai
03-30-2010, 05:17 PM
I keep winning with this deck and love it still. I am wondering what it's bad matches are? I don't seem to run into one ever. Looking over the list, I think I could beat it playing Tendrils, but after boarding it would be tricky with the two hate bears. No one plays Tendrils here besides myself so I haven't had the pleasure.

Goblins seems quite close as they can go really fast sometimes. Only had to play against it once and if it had not been for a play mistake on his side I would have lost it. It was that close.

Landstill might suck, but I never see that deck played anymore.


That's about all I can think of.

Philipp2293
03-30-2010, 05:24 PM
Apart from ANT I have yet to face a MU where I would state that it is clearly negative (current record 16-2-2 in tournaments).

On another topic: I tried the Mystic Package Tao suggested in the last local tournament, and it seemed to lead to the "danger of cool things". I may have to test it again, for my own playstyle the more straight forward approach is more appropriate.

Tao
03-30-2010, 06:51 PM
Yeah, probably Stoneforge Mystic does not work as good as I hoped it would. It is awesome in that Ugw-deck, but I couldn't find a version so far that is both consistent and fast enough. Vial is either insane or bad and that is not what this deck wants. Still, I am quite sure the Mystic will find its way into the DTB forum in some way.

The bad matchups for GW are first and foremost ANT (and also Solidarity, which is even worse). Fortunately Dream Halls is not that bad (still 40-60) because Pridemage counters the Dream Halls Combo and an active Survival stops them from playing Show and Tell. If they still play it, just get Iona and stop them from doing anything, Iona will also outrace Progenitus with the help of Finks and / or Swords or double Exalted should they put that into play.
Landstill is not bad, unless they play some updated tuned version they won't be able to deal with Iona so Survival just reads "I win". But if someone knows about the Meta he won't touch Landstill so they probably won't have a solution. GW also can apply a lot of sustainable pressure, has Pridemages for their Stuff, might sneak a win with Wastelands and has a good curve from 1-3 so Explosives won't kill you. I would say the matchup is about 50-50 which is as good as it gets for a GW deck against Landstill. Also if you have 2 Elspeth in the MD or SB the matchup gets even better.

Goblins is not easy, also around 50-50 overall, depending on their build. The more Warren Weirdings they play, the worse the matchups gets, but in G1 GW is certainly ahead. Unless they connect with Lackey or you have a bad draw Mother of Runes, Goyf, Finks and KotR are too fast too strong and Jitte or Survival for Iona on Red will finish the job. For G2 and G3 PtE is not very good (though you still bring it in) whereas they will have 3 nasty options - Perish, Relic of Progenitus and Pyrokinesis. They cant board 10 cards but siding in 5-6 good cards will certainly ake the matchup a bit worse.

conboy31
03-30-2010, 09:30 PM
The bad matchups for GW are first and foremost ANT (and also Solidarity, which is even worse).

I have not played against Solidarity with GW survival, but I think I would much rather play it than get paired up against Ant.
Partially because it is slower and mono blue (iona and mother + hate bears). Also, a non fatal brain freeze, if that happened for some reason, means a KotR on the table is fatal. Have you played this match out a few times?

Boarding, I would probably go -4 finks, +1 teeg, +1 cannonist, +1 runed halo, +1 choke.

venice
03-31-2010, 04:15 AM
Depending on who goes first, the matchup against AggroLoam varies from fairly even to bad, imo. Devastating Dreams is almost game over if well timed. Also, Loam has different ways to get rid of Iona which makes it harder to name a color to benefit the most.
43Lands isnīt that good either, as is Enchantress and Stax (although not THAT bad).

Aside from that, the "only" deck to beat which is a really bad matchup remains ANT. Anything else should be even or clearly in our favor.

Valdez
03-31-2010, 04:13 PM
I've playtested a lot against Lands, and it doesn't seem bad, a long as you can resolve SotF into Iona naming green and destroy their Mazes/Chasm usnig Knight + Wasteland.
Enchantress and Stax seemd quite positive to me with tons of basics and Pridemages + Grips + Genesis + Gaddok.

Aggro Loam is a bitch to play against.

btw. my actual Sb:
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Genesis
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Runed Halo
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Spore Frog
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Path to Exile

St3B
04-06-2010, 01:31 PM
Hi, I followed this thread for a while now and wanted to know what you think about the inclusion of a tutor package?
First of all it'll help us drop Canonist as soon as turn 2 against combo as well as finding Survival or our own combo in form of Grindstone/Painter's Servant.


4 [B] Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [MM] Plains
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
3 [ST] Forest
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 [REB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers
4 [FNM] Mother of Runes
3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [SHD] Aethersworn Canonist
1 [SHM] Painter's Servant
1 [TE] Grindstone
2 [MR] Elightened Tutor

Valdez
04-06-2010, 01:54 PM
Good ideas:
- Enlightend Tutor

Bad ideas:
- 8 Windswept Heath
- only 3 KotR
- only 2 Pridemages
- no Witness
- Painter + Grindstone (Iona + Painter = Hardlock and even this is waste of slots)

If you fear combo, you should simply stop playing this deck, cuz it won't ever have a good Combo MU.

Philipp2293
04-06-2010, 02:18 PM
Good ideas:
- Enlightend Tutor


MD? Really? I think it's fine in the SB, I bring it in vs some MUs where I would be fine to grab a fast Survival or where I need to get my Hatepieces fast.




Bad ideas:

- only 3 KotR
- only 2 Pridemages
- no Witness

If you fear combo, you should simply stop playing this deck, cuz it won't ever have a good Combo MU.

Agreed on both the Knights and the Pridemages, the Knights outgrow Goyfs easily after a few turns.
Disagree on the Witness, cut her a while back, never missed her.
Also agreed on the combo issue.

Currently I consider to move from 4 Kitchen Finks to 2 Finks and 2 Scryb Rangers, cause Zoo is non existent in my meta und the Rangers are good in the same MUs where I like my Finks, plus their untap effect is probably having a target all the time. Thougths?

St3B
04-06-2010, 02:51 PM
Good ideas:
- Enlightend Tutor

Bad ideas:
- 8 Windswept Heath
- only 3 KotR
- only 2 Pridemages
- no Witness
- Painter + Grindstone (Iona + Painter = Hardlock and even this is waste of slots)

If you fear combo, you should simply stop playing this deck, cuz it won't ever have a good Combo MU.

Of course it should've been 4x Wooded Foothills. Iona + Painter is an added bonus. I mainly thought about Painter/Grindstone to win on the spot against stalemates or just an oops I win against players who don't expect it. Just wanted to know your thoughts if it could work.

Tao
04-06-2010, 03:32 PM
@St3B:
There are a lot if Gimmicks that you can add to the deck. Some of them are dead or almost dead when you draw into them (Squee, Iona, Loyal Retainers, Painter's Servant, Grindstone), some (Eternal Witness, Scryb Ranger) are slightly worse than the the cards that you would like to play 4 of (Qasali Pridemage, Knight of the Reliquary).
So you have to ask yourself: which Gimmick wins you more games by tutoring for it that you would lose otherwise than you would win, but instead lose by drawing into it instead of a better creature?
In the case of Squee and the Iona/Retainers Combo it is pretty safe to say that those win you enough games to justify playing them. The Painter/Grindstone Combo however will almost certainly lose you more games by drawing a dead Combo piece than win you games that you wouldn't be able to win with Survival + Iona + Squee on their own.

Also, if you want to maindeck an Anti Combo Card take Gaddock Teeg instead of Ethersworn Canonist. Teeg stops nearly all Combo Decks just as well as the Canonist, but additionally he is very good against Dredge (Dread Return), Natural Order, Humility, Wrath of God, Engineered Explosives and Planeswalkers. Also, everything that Philipp and Valdez said : )

@Philipp/Valdez:
Metatuning is always ok. I don't think it is wrong to reduce Kitchen Finks to 2 and the Scryb Rangers certainly sound interesting. I never tested them but undeniably they have synergy with nearly every card in the deck (Exalted, Tap Effects) and 2 other useful abilities. With the Witness / E Tutor I am not sure. Even though it might sound wrong, I am convinced that it is probably personal preference, playstyle and expected Metagame that gives the edge there because the possible choices are very close to each other and the advantages hard to calculate.

Valdez
04-07-2010, 02:56 AM
MD? Really? I think it's fine in the SB, I bring it in vs some MUs where I would be fine to grab a fast Survival or where I need to get my Hatepieces fast.
...
Disagree on the Witness, cut her a while back, never missed her.
SotF is by far the best card, you can draw in almost every MU, especially since my metagame is full of Pridemages and Bant Survivals, you simply want that SotF asap and as many as possible.
Witness returns SotF and StP most of the times vs. flying critters.
I've also tested Mystics, more Jittes and other stuff, but i've allways returned to 2 ET MD.


Currently I consider to move from 4 Kitchen Finks to 2 Finks and 2 Scryb Rangers, cause Zoo is non existent in my meta und the Rangers are good in the same MUs where I like my Finks, plus their untap effect is probably having a target all the time. Thougths?
I've tested Quirion Rangers as a 2of for a while and cut him again, cuz was only good, when you had some nuts (Knight, Mother, SotF) on the board, I would rather play more bombs.

soiber2000
04-11-2010, 01:38 PM
Has anyone tested Aven Mindcensor? My meta is full of bants (natural orders, and countertop versions) and some other survival decks. Zoo is less played now, so I am thinking in cutting some finks for mindcensor if it proofs to be a good choice. I don't have time to test it now and if somebody have experience with it would be good to hear. Also, I never played gaddock teeg maindeck but in this kind of meta I think it would be a good choice too.

Philipp2293
04-15-2010, 04:50 AM
Tajuru Preserver 1G
Creature - Elf Shaman
Spells and abilities your opponents control can't cause you to sacrifice permanents.

From ROE. Could this have any applications outside the T-21 MU?

venice
04-18-2010, 04:28 PM
Hey guys! Finally, after six weeks of not playing Legacy I managed to play another tournament, namely our "monthly Haßloch". This time the tournament was held as a trial for Bazaar of Moxen, also (which takes place May 13-16th in Annecy, France - if you havenīt heard yet).
48 Players attended to play for prizes and byes, resulting in 6 rounds of Swiss + T8 playoffs.

I played this list:

// Mana
4 [u] Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [7E] Forest
1 [MI] Plains
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [US] Gaeaīs Cradle
1 [JP] Maze of Ith

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FNM] Mother of Runes
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
1 [PRO] Spore Frog
1 [JDM] Genesis
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers

Removal and Engine
4 [u] Swords to Plowshares
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 1 [WW] Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [JP] Maze of Ith
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre

Compared to the list I played in Madrid, I only changed MB: -1 Quiriron Ranger +1 Maze of Ith and SB -1 Pridemage, +1 Maze of Ith. As I said I tinkered around with Stoneforge Mystic as well for some time but came to the conclusion that itīs just too clunky for this deck. I like the card very much, but in here it just doesnīt fit well enough to make room for it imo.

Anyway, here are todayīs results:

Round 1: White Weenie 1-1
Round 2: Survival Elves feat. NoPro 2-0
Round 3: ANT 2-1 (Yeah!) :D
Round 4: Bant Aggro 2-0
Round 5: Tempo Thresh 1-2
Round 6: RW Walker.dec 2-0

I come in as 5th place after swiss.

Top 8: 4c-Counter Top (Nassifīs list) 2-0
Top 4: GWB Rock 2-1
Finals: Tempo Thresh 0-2

So I finish 2nd place which means picking a minty Natural Order and one bye for Annecy. :D
As you see my only losses were against TT (I played the same guy twice) which was quite disappointing in a way. I always considered that matchup to be clearly positive but after today Iīm not so sure anymore. I mean, he played the deck really well and also drew what he needed both games while I drew stuff like Squee and Genesis or a bunch of lands... ;P but nevertheless Iīm not so sure about this anymore.
My highlight of the day was clearly against ANT in game 2 where I had Gaddock Teeg backed up by TRIPLE Mother of Runes in play! ;))) Yeah, that was nice indeed! ^^

Hope to see you all in Annecy!

Philipp2293
04-19-2010, 10:57 AM
From my experience TT is positive, I was suprised to see you lose twice to it. Do you have anymore details? I guess there has to be manascrew involved?

Too bad I have to put this deck aside for a while, cause the meta changed and now is about one third combo (ANT and Belcher).

Valdez
04-19-2010, 12:34 PM
Compared to the list I played in Madrid, I only changed MB: -1 Quiriron Ranger +1 Maze of Ith and SB -1 Pridemage, +1 Maze of Ith. As I said I tinkered around with Stoneforge Mystic as well for some time but came to the conclusion that itīs just too clunky for this deck. I like the card very much, but in here it just doesnīt fit well enough to make room for it imo.
dito.

(Fabian Knabe finished 5th at the monthly Legacy tourney in Iserlohn with my list, btw. he won 2 out of 3 Combo MUs 2-0. ;)

venice
04-19-2010, 04:07 PM
From my experience TT is positive, I was suprised to see you lose twice to it. Do you have anymore details? I guess there has to be manascrew involved?


Manascrew was only an issue during one game, actually (out of the five we played). It was just that no matter what I played, he ALWAYS had the right answer for it. I canīt even remember getting MoR active a single time.... :/ One game, he FoWed two MoR during my first two turns and despite those 2 for 1 trades I still couldnīt win. I guess here came just everything together at once: he played very well and drew like a god. Also, he won the dice roll BOTH matches... :/

@Valdez: Nice to see someone else beating the ass out of combo with this deck! ;D

Philipp2293
05-04-2010, 07:56 AM
Anyone still has recent developments on this deck? Could maybe Vengevine be considered?

jeanbathez
05-17-2010, 05:45 AM
Hi to everyone in this thread !!!

Until yet i played Bant Survival, but in the last weeks i meet a lot of meerfolk and aggro decks, but not much combo, so i thought of trying this variant.
Is Anyone playing or testing this atm or isn't it good anymore ?

Philipp2293
05-17-2010, 09:23 AM
Hi there!

I'm still playing GW Survival (just not much lately). If you don't face lots of combo this deck is a solid choice. Do you already have a list in mind?

jeanbathez
05-17-2010, 10:21 AM
Do you already have a list in mind?

Hmm, comeing from bant survival something like this :


4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
1 Plains
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
4 Horizon Canopy


4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Loyal Retainers

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Umezawa's Jitte

I'am not sure if i should include ET in the main, cutting 1 Jitte and 1 Finks f.e..
Also i think the gameplan with this deck is much more aggro than bant survival or GWB Survival..., i think will miss Top or Brainstorm when digging for survival or answers without survival...

Philipp2293
05-17-2010, 11:45 AM
Your list looks pretty good IMO. I run pretty much the same but -1 Wasteland -1 Kitchen Finks + 2 Scryb Ranger. If you want to run ET, I'd probably cut the Finks.

You're right, this deck is more aggro, often it just plays as GW Aggro with the possibility to land a Survival.

venice
05-17-2010, 11:58 AM
Iīm just back from Annecy and want to post results shortly. Almost 500 players attended to play 9 Rounds of swiss + Top 16. I finished 6-2-1, resulting in a 45th place, making it into the pricecut. ;))

I changed no card in my mainboard (see above for decklist) but decided to cut Tormodīs Crypt + Maze from my sideboard in favour to 3x Faerie Macabre + 2x Bojuka Bog, which was an excellent call in Annecyīs Meta (there were TONS! of Reanimator decks). I really like the fact, that I can "fetch" both of these either with Survival or KotR which adds a lot of persistancy to those MatchUps which are strongly dependend on their GY.

Did anybody else who posts here, play in Annecy? How was it going for you?

Philipp2293
05-17-2010, 12:03 PM
Congratz on the result! How many reanimator decks did you face? From my experience this is a really hard MU. Did you also manage to dodge Combo all day?

conboy31
05-17-2010, 12:10 PM
Hey venice, I was playing some post board games vs. reanimator yesterday. Which route did you end up taking:

A) Leave Iona + retainers in
B) Board out retainers, leave in Iona
C) Board out Iona and retainers

I think B or C might be correct. It is tough to say which is better between having the Iona in the deck and being able to get it if they show and tell or throw it in the yard to screw up their exhume. Or simply have another slot to bring in your board.

I feel like leaving in retainers and iona is too dead as white gets shut off and they will have answers in 1 or 2 colors.
Also, I found it was much easier to win if I could exile both copies of the reanimators Iona, and giving them access to steal mine from my yard might be more trouble than its worth. Once both Iona's are gone they have to try to race you with shrouded inkwells or archangels (if they are still in) or be open to getting their creatures sworded.

venice
05-18-2010, 08:34 AM
@phil: Thanks! I faced two Reanimator in the main event on Saturday and played another two in a last chance Trial on Friday. My friend played Reanimator as well so I really tested the MatchUp a lot. I find it not that hard to be honest, even favourable postboard Iīd say. Having Maze and Karakas available is really HUGE against them. Thus, a resolved KotR normally wins, as does Survival (Frog+Genesis). Post board three Faerie Macabre are just insanely good. And the good thing is with four KotR Show and Tell can really backfire on them. I remember one game where it actually happened that my opponent played Show and Tell bringing Iona into play while I chose KotR. In my turn I activated KotR to fetch Karakas and he was like WTF??? ;))))
The only "scary" creature might be Inkwell. But without Islands and big dudes in play (or Frog) he can also be handled quite well. Archangel is too slow in most cases or will just cause a stall. And Sphinx/ Archon can be Sworded or Mazed.
I think in this figuration which I play atm the deck has really good chances to beat Reanimator very well.

@conboy: I usually leave both of them in, just for the reason of flexibility. Against Reanimator I board like this: -4 Finks, -1 Pridemage, -1 Gaddock, +3 Faerie, +2 Bojuka, +1 Vexing Shusher

conboy31
05-18-2010, 11:50 AM
Your karakas and maze really pushes some win % vs. reanimator that my version does not have and I am probably going to add one or both of them to my list. They have been on my radar and the meta is pushing their relevancy hard.
Another thing I noticed in testing that actually came up twice was that they tried to exhume Iona, I ate it with Macbre, then brought him back to play via exhume. In the meantime while they worked on getting an Iona in play I was able to resolve a jitte. Then they got Iona in play, I equiped a jitte to noble and ran it into iona. A macabre with a jitte + 2 counters kills Iona in combat. This scenario leaves them in a precarious situation.

Edit - Venice you often have had the genesis + frog engine main. How relevant have you found it g1/the frogs fogs buying you a turn to set up or swing fatal? The issue I have with it is that it could be 2 dead cards game one. Though, it could be a blowout g1 if they cant interact with your yard and frog can dodge exile removal.
But if they both are in your sideboard, bringing them in increases the opponents grave yard hates power.
As it is, I have both in my SB instead of maindeck and will sometimes bring them in trying to get strong value out of frog when they could swing fatal, etc.

venice
05-18-2010, 02:11 PM
I really like Genesis+Frog in my maindeck. Of course there are games where you donīt really need them but I think there are more situations where they really shine. Besides ANT I guess there are very few other MatchUps where I would board them out. At worst, you can throw them into Survival and get something else.

One thing I forgot to mention: I had a really ridicolous game against ANT where I had to mulligan to 4(!) and still won the game... :cool:

conboy31
05-18-2010, 06:16 PM
I really like Genesis+Frog in my maindeck. Of course there are games where you donīt really need them but I think there are more situations where they really shine. Besides ANT I guess there are very few other MatchUps where I would board them out. At worst, you can throw them into Survival and get something else.

One thing I forgot to mention: I had a really ridicolous game against ANT where I had to mulligan to 4(!) and still won the game... :cool:

That Ant game must have been awesome. T1 mother T2 cannonist/Mr. Teeg?
I played about a half dozen games again today vs. reanimator, 2 pre and like 6 post board. The Macabre eating Iona plus equiping it to jitte came up at least two more times out of the 6ish post board. Winning both times.
I also went ahead and added the main deck Karakas. I am pretty sure that is the correct call at the moment. I am on the fence with Maze and Gcradle but will probably try them out fairly soon.

Instead of 3 macabres + 0 crypts, a 2 - 1 split might end up being stronger as going all in on the macabres amplifies reanimators pithing needles. However, if you are able to win game one, the trip macabres might simply blow them out g2. Whereas they would have a much better idea going into a potential g3.

Philipp2293
05-19-2010, 12:57 AM
That Ant game must have been awesome. T1 mother T2 cannonist/Mr. Teeg?


As I've sadly found out, this does not help against a boarded virtues ruin. :(

venice
05-24-2010, 07:14 AM
I played another tournament yesterday. 91 players, 7 rounds. I missed Top8 only by an inch going into the last round with an 4-0-2 record, but lost very unlucky: although my opponent was a nice guy to play with, he did things like casting two Vendilion Cliques or attack, then play Retainer, then try to sac it... and more stupid stuff like that..... but unfortunately he got his Survi online first and I didnīt draw one of my 11 outs before he finished me (he was on 2 life). Game two I mulled two five and had to keep a mediocre hand...while he got early pressure I just couldnīt cope with. That was quite sad seeing my opponent making such big play mistakes but still winning the game.... but I guess thatīs part of magic...sometimes luck just beats skill no matter what...
So finally I ended up in 16th place which still earned me a foil Dark Confidant+ foil Stoneforge Mystic which isnīt that bad either so it made up a bit for loosing that last round.

I played against:

Reanimator 2-0
Dreadstill URb 1-1
Tempo Thresh 2-0
4c Control 2-1
UGW Faeries 1-1
Merfolk MonoU 2-1
Bant Survival 0-2

My maindeck was the same as "always" (see above). As far as sideboarding goes, I tried a new tech in adding three Perimeter Captain to the board. And although I didnīt face Zoo all day long (sadly, because these guys just CRUSH Zoo decks), they won me a game vs. Merfolk I would have lost if I hadnīt played them. For now, I would also consider them against TT since they can really buy a lot of time and are so easy to cast. I really like the card!

Also, I met "Rigero" from TheSource (he also played GW-Survival). And it was really nice to meet people you only know from the internet in real life and see whose behind the nickname. :D

spirit of the wretch
05-24-2010, 05:14 PM
Played the same event, finished 5/1/1 but had an abysmal opp-score so I got 9th... Fuck my life!
Nevertheless awesome deck. Report incoming as soon as I get around writing it.

Rigero
05-25-2010, 05:58 PM
Hi,

I played at the same event too ^^. Only 4-3 for me : / but was very nice to see so many other players playing GW-Survival.

My list was:

Mainboard:
3 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Forest
3 Wooded Foothills

1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Qasali Pridemage
1 Loyal Retainers
4 Mother of Runes
3 Kitchen Finks
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
1 Spore Frog
1 Genesis
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sword of light and shadow
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Ethersworn Canonist

Well, now i would play an other sideboard ;)

Round 1: New Horizon 2-0
Round 2: Reanimator 2-1
Round 3: Canadian Thresh 2-0
Round 4: Ur Dreadstill 0-2
Round 5: GW-Survival 0-2 against Spirit of the Wretch
Round 6: Bant-Survival 1-2 in the turns, with a lot of luck, against the guy who beats Venice in the last round.
Round 7: ANT 2-1

well it was a nice tournament, at least there could have been more players, but it was nice to talk to venice and all the other guys.

Next time i ll also play Genesis / Spore frog and maybe karakas main. And in the Sideboard i ll play Bojuka Bog and even more Faerie macabre because of the many reanimator decks atm.

spirit of the wretch
05-27-2010, 06:19 PM
As I promised: Report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17692-Sure-took-you-long-enough-Finally-another-SPOD-report!&p=458813)

Galroth
06-30-2010, 12:32 AM
I'm ready for this deck to start dominating the scene.

Post Mystical Tutor I see this as a great meta choice. First, it seems almost universally agreed that Zoo is going to be present in larger numbers, and this deck feeds on Zoo. Second, with everyone's favorite tutor gone, Reanimator will see less play, and consequently less hate will show up against Iona. Again, another gain for UG as Loyal Retainers is still as effective as they day it was conceived.

Thoughts?

conboy31
06-30-2010, 02:19 AM
What have your results been like vs zoo? I actually think that people are starting to overrate how good it is vs. a zoo list like matt elias or other top SCG lists.

Tao
06-30-2010, 07:58 AM
The matchup vs. Zoo is positive for GW, probably somewhere between 55-45 and 60-40, because they run out of gas faster. Lavamancer is their biggest threat, and you have a StoP for each of them. Now to something completely different:

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/roe/212.jpg

HOW by all means did no Survival deck catch on to this insanity? I didnt have much time to test, but after a short tip (hope I spoil no tech) I tried it with 3 and immediately went up to 4. Seriously, coming here and finding no Vengevine-Survival thread makes me kinda sad ;) However, here is my current GW list, and I am convinced it is a huge improvement:


// Lands
4 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
4 [A] Savannah
4 [RAV] Forest
1 [OD] Plains
4 [JGC] Windswept Heath
2 [JGC] Wooded Foothills
3 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [LG] Karakas

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FNM] Mother of Runes
2 [ON] Weathered Wayfarer
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [FNM] Kitchen Finks
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [ROE] Vengevine
1 [FNM] Basking Rootwalla

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [DDD] Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [FNM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

(also trying with - 1 Forest, SB: - 1 Elspeth; + 1 Tropical Island, SB: + 1 Clone to combat Iona, Progenitus and Reanimator, Trop may suck against Merfolk though).


I toyed around with a black or blue splash, but I think this version gives better overall odds to win games, the consistency and pressure the two-colored version offers in my tests outweighed the benfits of discard or soft counters.. Explanations to the list and the deck:

Vengevine (without Survival): It is still a solid creature on its own. I gets around CB in 2 ways, wins attrition wars and has good stats. Haste is one of the strongest abilities and can catch opponents off guard.

Vengevine with Survival: Basking Rootwalla is very important for two reasons. The first is that it lets you play 2 creature spells a turn even if you have only one creature in hand. The second is that it allows you to save 1 Mana, which often means +1 Vengevine. The optimal sequence needs 3 green lands, Hierarch, Survival and VV and looks like this: T1 Hierarch, T2 Survival, dump VV get VV, untap, dump VV, dump VV, play Rootwalla, play MoR, bash for 12. Of course games usually dont go like this, but note that it might happen that you abandon a 4/3 to save a single green Mana (which is a good thing that shows the speed of the deck). But of course usually you want to take full advantage and get 16 power.

No Squee, no Genesis, no Maze, no Iona/Retainers: By now I am convinced that none of this is needed. I tested about 15 games with Maze and Spore Frog and not once wanted them. After that I once lost a game against a Dark Depths Token, when I got my KotR one turn too late and Maze would have saved me but overall this is a beatdown deck and dead draws hurt a lot, so I think it is best to stick to the beatdown plan. If you get Survival, just dump as many Vengevines as you can into the yard and get them into play. To Iona/Retainers: 16 Haste power is better than Iona and also VV are not dead draws. They clearly outclass the Iona /Retainers combo.

Jitte: Feels not needed in this build and this Meta.

2 Weathered Wayfarer: Another new one. I always felt this deck needed just a bit more 1-drops, because a hand with Hierarch / Mom is so much stronger than a hand without them. The deck almost guarantees a good play on turn 2, 3 and 4 and with going up to 10 1-drops it gets much more likely to always have that one drop. And Wayfarer is a great one drop btw, should have tried it earlier. Especially on the draw it forces the opponent to deal with it somehow. For those not familiar with it, it is a quite skillful creature to use (or not use): one common way to use it is in Response to Wasteland, Fetchland or KotR activations.

Waikiki
06-30-2010, 08:16 AM
I like your inclusion of vengevine. I didn't add it in my bant survival deck since I cannot support it but in this deck It seems at its place.

What are the elspeths boarded in for?

ALso quirion ranger seems pretty strong as 1 drop together with mother knight and noble.

Tao
06-30-2010, 09:53 AM
Elspeth is a great card, sending a Goyf, KotR or VV flying with 1 or 2 Exalted is always a big swing and Elspeth is flexible enough to be either finisher or new threat.
But the main reason that Elspeths are in the SB is because she is unaffected by all SB cards that come in against GW and she beats multiple strategies that are annyoing to play against: mass removal and graveyard hate. Moat, Humility, Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives, Relic of Progenitus, Tormods Crypt and Krosan Grip all do nothing against Elspeth. Also it breaks ground stalls and wins attrition wars without relying on the yard. It shines in matchups like Rock, every Survival variant, Landstill or Staxx.

Quirion Ranger I don't like because it does nothing on its own. MoR, Hierarch and WW usually either eat Removal on T1 or get active on T2, QR cant do that.

Philipp2293
06-30-2010, 03:36 PM
I already mentioned Vengevine on the previous page, but nobody responded ;). Deck looks great so far, as combo is weakened I might pick it up again, only the price for Vengevine makes me sad.

@SB: I think it needs more Gaddock Teeg.

Edit: Wait, you also cut Squee?

Tao
06-30-2010, 06:27 PM
double post deleted

Tao
06-30-2010, 06:29 PM
Ah, didnt see it, but good call. You should have tested with a couple of them right away ;)

I always try to stay unbiased with matchups and card evaluations and try to not exaggerate anything with and from a neutral point I can say that Vv is insanely strong and puts the deck on a new level. Not only are Vvs unlike Iona, Squee and Retainers a good card when you draw them, they are also much better with Survival. After Survival resolves you usually pay 5 to get Iona into play. For the same Mana you get 3 Vengevines (if you start with one in hand),a Basking Rootwalla and a Mother of Runes/ Noble Hierarch. For 6 Mana you already get 20 power, and 16 of them are hasty. After that the game is usually just over, so there is no need for Squee. Just go ahead and test it, I am sure you will find out the same thing. It is so fast that chaining a Squee in between would just result in one less Vengevine. I am extremely satisfied with the list above. It is a beatdown deck and Survival is a broken Enchantment that reads "pay 4-7 Mana: put Basking Rootwalla, Mother of Runes and 2-4 4/3 creatures with haste into play, they come back next turn if they die."

cseraph
07-05-2010, 02:31 AM
Vengevine seems like an interesting tool, but it is worth noting that 3 vengevines on board are not clearly better than iona. Iona is stronger against most forms of combo, as well as an aggressive deck that can flood the board such as goblins.

Tao
07-05-2010, 07:42 AM
Iona and Retainers are 2 dead cards when drawn, they are easier to play around and also you usually get 4 Vvs unless you choose to get only 3. You also get not only the 3-4 Vvs but also a Rootwalla and a creature of your choice (depending on Mana MoR, Goyf or KotR). All I can say is that I've tested it and that it is not even close between Iona and Vvs.
The addition of it should put the deck to a new level, especially with Mystical Tutor to be gone soon. It has no more dead cards, highest card quality, a great curve and an outstanding unfair gamebreaker in form of SotF.

Waikiki
07-05-2010, 08:08 AM
Ive been playing your list and really liking it thusfar. Maybe you could give some sideboard tips vs the commonly played matchups?

Tao
07-05-2010, 10:20 AM
Sure. But these are of course no fixed numbers since there exist many different versions of most decks (just look at all those thousand Bant decks). So 8 of 10 times you have to improvize and in many of these matches Elspeth and Grip will shine ;)

Zoo: + 1 Finks, + 3 PtE; - 2 Wayfarer, - 2 Qasali Pridemage

Merfolk: + 1 Finks, + 3 PtE; - 2 Wayfarer, - 1 Vv, - 1 Wasteland

New Horizons: + 3 PtE, + 2 Crypt, - 3 Pridemage, - 2 Kitchen Finks (side in Clone if you play version with Tropical)

Reanimator: + 4 Yardhate, - 2 Finks, - 2 Wayfarer (also side in Clone)

Countertop: + 3 Krosan Grip, + 3 Elspeth, - 2 Finks, - 1 Vv, - 1 Rootwalla, - 2 Wayfarer (on play), - 1 Karakas, 1 Elspeth (on Draw) (also side in Clone vs. Prog. version)

ANT: + Teeg and Yardhate, - Wayfarer and Swords

Squirrely
07-05-2010, 05:09 PM
I just spent some time to try and recover my old username and password. I've lurked here a bit off and on for the last year(s) or so, since I don't play that much competitive Magic at the moment/any more. I was thinking the other day about picking legacy up again, so I started looking at some more threads and testing some on *cough*MWS*cough*. And since this deck actually had a lot of cards I actually own and like (Goyf, Survival, Knight of the Reliquary) I decided to give this a spin. I must say, this deck is quite awesome :). It's surprisingly resilient and pulled some unexpected (by me) wins out of its ass. I like it and will probably test it some more. Maybe even try and get some Vengevines. Who knows.

f|i[p]
07-06-2010, 03:37 AM
Was wondering, although I play a different version of the deck, using vials and splashing a hint of black for bone shredder and the likes, it is basically the same.

I seem to be having problems against bant survival.. They basically get survival much faster and from there on, wonders cripple me fast..How is your match up with bant survival with the old build?

how is your match up against bant survival in your new vengevine build?


I also noticed that only 1 basking rootwalla is not enough.. maybe 2 ..to make sure you can reuse vengevine if your first attempts flop

Tao
07-06-2010, 10:09 AM
The matchup against Bant Survival is tricky because they have better odds of getting Survival online than we. There are 4 cases:


- Both get Survival: GW has much better chances to outrace Bant with Vengevines than by battling for Iona control and allowing them to play their tricks with Wonder or Spellstutter Sprites. I found during my games, not only against Bant Survival, that often aggression is the most appropiate strategy and when I am not sure which play is better I try to choose the more aggressive play. But on the other hand, should Bant stabilize, the Squee/Iona version has the better lategame. The more stuff you pack exclusively for Survival, the better Survival of course gets. Overall I'd say it is usually about who has more Mana and is ahead on the board and who gets Survival online first and not so much about the version of GW.

- No one gets Survival: GW usually is in a better spot because Mother of Runes and Knight of the Reliquary dominate the board. In this case of course Vevi build is superior because a 4/3 haster is better than a 1/1 for 3, a 9 Mana Angel or a completely uncastable Goblin.

- We get Survival, they don't: Easy win for both versions, but of course that happens rarely.

- They get Survival, we don't: Unfortunately a common scenario and sometimes you just can't do anything when they win the die roll and go Hierarch, Survival, Daze. But usually they dont have the nuts draw. In these cases play very aggressive and use the advantages that GW has over Bant. It is 10 permanent 1-Drops to 4 permanent 1-Drops, you have superior creature size, plus they spend their time Pondering and Brainstorming and lose landdrops to Daze, while you go ahead on the board with aggressive and disruptive creatures. Attack their land base and StoP Hierarchs if you see a chance because their mana base is vulnerable. Also, sniping SotF with Qasali can buy you precious time. Again Vv version is superior because 4 Mana 4/3 haste > dead draw.

________

1 Rootwalla is enough, the decks creature count is high enough to usually reuse them in time should that be needed. Even if it happened to you once that you wished for a second Rootwalla: Don't try to prepare for every situation, it will weaken the deck overall and your deck might end up unfocused and completely Survival dependant like this for example:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32782

Philipp2293
07-07-2010, 07:23 AM
I'm close to switching the 2 Finks MD with 2 Elspeths from the SB. Elspeth stalls in a similar way to Finks, but it's more dangerous in the offense if you don't get a survival, as there should always be critters to sent over flying. Is the lifegain needed that bad? (But then again, in my meta there is not much zoo.)

Waikiki
07-08-2010, 11:16 AM
I found vengevine a bit on the overkill at 4 and cut it down to 3 to add a maindeck teeg. Thoughts?

Philipp2293
07-08-2010, 01:17 PM
Is MD Teeg really needed after the banning of MT? As a one-off he seems too random, and if you get survival online you could search him or start chaining VVs, which I feel is better in almost all situations.

Hawdes
07-08-2010, 02:18 PM
Is MD Teeg really needed after the banning of MT? As a one-off he seems too random, and if you get survival online you could search him or start chaining VVs, which I feel is better in almost all situations.

I can say, as a NO player facing Teeg, that MD Teeg is retarded. He's nice at shutting down EE and some other strategies that often are boarded in or used against creaturebased decks.

Waikiki
07-08-2010, 03:24 PM
Teeg stops the pain in the ass landstill bombs as in humility, moat and walkers which do get played alot in my meta.

Also EE is a pain in the ass from time to time.

Philipp2293
07-08-2010, 04:39 PM
I do not say that Teeg is bad, I meant that just a singleton Teeg is a little random. Don't get me wrong, I run 3 in the board, but preboard you can win just fine by chaining VVs (as far as my testing experience goes).

conboy31
07-08-2010, 11:42 PM
Since we are talking about Teeg and VV, a fairly extreme corner case come up today.
I had a few VVs that ended up in the GY after my initial chaining and attacking. I drew a one drop creature and was essentially hellbent w/no canopy to cycle. I was able to Karakas my teeg and then teeg + 1 drop to trigger the VVs.

f|i[p]
07-09-2010, 02:21 AM
Its funny how sometimes people seem to need more of path to exile than w. wayfarer. And they usually side the wayfarers out. Can't we just put the PtE maindeck instead.. and put some other card on the sideboard.

I have seen wayfarer tricks, and they seem to benefit more when you are facing aggro control variants.. If the metagame is more aggro would you advice having path to exile maindeck instead of wayfarer or some other card?

Waikiki
07-09-2010, 04:31 AM
I hate giving goblins extra lands.

Tao
07-09-2010, 05:50 AM
;471149']Its funny how sometimes people seem to need more of path to exile than w. wayfarer. And they usually side the wayfarers out. Can't we just put the PtE maindeck instead.. and put some other card on the sideboard.

I have seen wayfarer tricks, and they seem to benefit more when you are facing aggro control variants.. If the metagame is more aggro would you advice having path to exile maindeck instead of wayfarer or some other card?

In a Meta with a lot of Aggro this is a good choice. Ins uch a Meta, this deck is a good choice in general, so yes go ahead and make the switch.

For a normal Metagame I added Wayfarer to the deck to make sure to hit the curve, since it gives you a 1-drop almost always. Especially on the draw it is important to start interacting on turn 1 or you can't play the aggressive role you want to play. Hierarch will accelerate so they probably Sword it (and if not, you will take advantage of it immediately). MoR will force them to use their Removal now ore never and if they let you untap with Wayfarer you get a free Wasteland, so they will usually also use their Sword or Daze on it. Other 1-drops like Quirion Ranger or Basking Rootwalla can just be ignored by your opponent until turn 4 or 5, so they won't count for the curve.


I hate giving goblins extra lands.

For the aggro SB slot against Goblins, Merfolk and Zoo the most important thing is Mana Cost 1. The Options are Oust (thx to Boolean for bringing it uo) and Path to Exile (Condemn doesnt get Mancer and Confidant so it is no option).
Oust won't get Manlands or help in Warchief turns. Unlike Path to Exile is also not very useful against the Eva-Style Confidant-decks or against New Horizons.
PtE is worse against Goblin Lackey and Goblins in general. But on the other hand it gets both of New Horizons big guys, Confidant and Merfolks Manlands. Overall I would still say that PtE is the best choice, it is besides StoP the only permanent, instant, unconditional Removal we have.

Waikiki
07-09-2010, 07:15 AM
I agree PTE is the best choice but I was reffering to it as a MD card. Which I dont think u want vs alot of matchups

Squirrely
07-09-2010, 05:03 PM
Playing the deck for a couple of days now, only a bit on MWS sadly. There's not a lot of combo or Reanimate on there, haven't faced any. So far, the deck's playing very nicely. I only lost 1 match (against soldier WW, go figure..), won the rest. I do wonder how the deck plays against combo, or for that matter, against better players. Though some off them are quite competent... MWS is still MWS.

The threat density of this deck is quite high. This is one of the first decks I've played in which I'm not too worried most off the time which of my cards get countered/removed, because there's a lot of stuff that can get there.

Vengevine really surprised me. I've won enough games just playing it as a 4 mana 4/3 haste creature. Or 2. Or I just completely surprise them by hitting them for 16 out of nowhere. Fun times.

Regarding Weathered Wayfarer, I too have the feeling they don't do enough in most matches. Most of the time when I get one of them they do nothing but being a 1/1 dork, or the 2nd creature in the turn when I chain Vengevines. When they do something, however, they are pretty insane. I'm hesitant to cut them, especially since my testing is still limited, but I'm not too impressed for now. Would something like Birds of Paradise be good as Noble 5-6? Maybe Aether Vial, although the downside is that it's not a creature. There are some more niche creatures for 1 mana in green and white, but they probably suffer the same problem Quirion Ranger does: it's a 1/1 do-nothing dork on it's own...


;470187']
I seem to be having problems against bant survival.. They basically get survival much faster and from there on, wonders cripple me fast..How is your match up with bant survival with the old build?

How about playing some number of Enlightened Tutor in the sideboard? Finds Survival in matchups where you would likely want one, and would open up some sideboard options.. Not sure how good it is though.

Windux
07-10-2010, 04:07 AM
Did anyone thinked about making a mashup between this and BantSurvival?

2-3 Tropicals and adding Rhox War Monk instead of Kitchen Finks and 1 Pridemage and adding Brainstorms and/or Ponder to the deck?
You could'nt only find the survival faster, it helps against manaflood (with shuffleeffects) and finding the right creature faster.

But of course, this would make the deck less aggressive, because you have cantrips which you have to pay for.